BABYL OPTIONS: Version: 5 Labels: Note: This is the header of an rmail file. Note: If you are seeing it in rmail, Note: it means the file has no messages in it.  1,, Date: 2 Jan 85 1334-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #1 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jan 85 1334-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #1 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 1 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Hello and Happy New Year, Books - Bradley & Golden Age & Organ Banks & Story Request Answered & Short Story Reviews, Films - Film Request & Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Television - Starlost & Outerworld (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 12:10:41 EST From: Saul Subject: Hello there Welcome to issue #1 of volume 10. I am glad to see so many people still with us and we have more joining us every day. I would like to wish all of you a very happy and healthy New Year and hope that you continue to enjoy reading (and of course contributing) to this digest. I would like to also take this opportunity to remind all of you that the sf-lovers archive here at Rutgers has a lot of stuff that you may enjoy reading. We have all of the digests since the very beginning of course, but there are some other contributions as well. T: Down-in-flames.txt ;Larry Niven destroys his universe Drwho.guide ;episode guide to Dr. Who Galactica.guide ;guide to Battlestar Galactica Hitch-Hikers-Guide-to-the-net.txt ;a very funny parody Hugos.txt ;a listing of all the Hugo winners Klingonaase.txt ;how to talk to a Klingon Lost-in-space.guide ;need I say it? Nebulas.txt ;all the Nebula award winners Outerlimits.guide ;another episode guide Star-trek.guide ;yet another Twilight-zone.guide ;and still another All of these files are available to readers via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP (PLEASE, no requests for mailing them to individuals). Again, let me welcome you all to a brand new year of fun reading. And now, on with the show...... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 21:39:06 EST From: Larry Kaufman Subject: New Darkover Book: City of Sorcery and revised list of books. Cc: nancy%scrc-cupid@mit-mc.arpa City of Sorcery is a continuation of the Shattered Chain/Thendara House story line, starting 7 years after Thendara House. The style, as one would expect, is very much like that of Thendara House. If you liked TH, you'll probably like CoS, if not, then you won't. I just checked through my library to check on Darkover chronology. Here is a revised version of Nancy Connor's () list from SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #218 of 10 Dec 84. I have included the copyright date and ISBN and publisher of the editions. Darkover Landfall The landing (c) 1972 ISBN 009 915410 2 Arrow Books Limited, London Stormqueen Matrix war and (c) 1978 ISBN 0 87997 381 1 genetic tampering Daw Books, NY Hawkmistress MacAran gift, King Carolin (c) 1982 ISBN 0 87997 762 0 Daw Two to Conquer Signing of the Compact (c) 1980 ISBN 0 87997 540 7 (~200 years after Stormqueen) Daw The Spell Sword Andrew Carr/Damon Ridenow/ (c) 1974 ISBN 0 87997 440 0 Altons vs Cat People. A Daw short time before Forbidden Tower. The Shattered Chain Free Amazons - their point of (c) 1976 ISBN 0 87997 327 7 view (12 Year gap in middle Daw of book) The Forbidden Tower Story about the Towers, (c) 1977 ISBN 0 87997 323 4 beginning of matrix Daw technology for the masses. Thendara House Free Amazons - Terran point (c) 1983 ISBN 0 87997 857 0 of view Daw City of Sorcery Amazons, Terrans, and (c) 1984 ISBN 0 87997 962 3 Sorceresses 7 Years after Thendara House Star of Danger Kennard and Larry meeting (c) 1965 Book # 441 77945 Ace, NY The Winds of Darkover Larry's fostering (c) 1970 ISBN 0 441 89251 5 ~85 years before World Ace Wreckers The Bloody Sun Attempt to revitalize the (c) 1964 Book # 441 06852 (191 pages) towers. (c) 1979 ISBN 0 441 06855 3 (372 pages, slightly larger type) Ace Heritage of Hastur About Sharra worship. (c) 1975 ISBN 0 87997 307 2 Terrans learn reason behind Daw compact the hard way. The Sword of Aldones Cleaning up after mess in (c) 1962 Ace 441 79200 Heritage of Hastur. Rewritten as ... Sharra's Exile (c) 1981 ISBN 0 87997 659 4 Mostly same story as Sword Daw of Aldones. The Planet Savers Darkovan & Terran working (c) 1962 Book # 441 67020 together (1976 printing) Ace The World Wreckers Terrans try to wreck Darkover (c) 1971 ISBN 0 441 91171 4 Ace ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 11:48:09 -0200 From: eyal%wisdom.BITNET@Berkeley (Eyal mozes) To: mdc.janice@mit-oz.ARPA Subject: RE: the Golden Age vs. the "new wave" > What do I mean by literary standards? Use of language that is > more than pedestrian. Rounded, real characters. More of a theme > than "Goshwowboyoboy, isn't technology great?" An understanding > that Sensawunda does not substitute for all of these things. And are you saying that Golden Age SF didn't have "all these things"? Then you don't seem to have read much of it! If you want an example, read one of my all-time SF favorites: Heinlein's "If This Goes On". It certainly has a serious, important theme - the meaning and importance of freedom. Its hero, John Lyle, is a very realistic character, a character you can identify with (certainly more than with any Ellison or Bradbury character); and he is "rounded" in the sense that there is definite development in his character - specifically, in his understanding of the meaning of freedom - during the story, and this development is an integral part of the plot. Why, then, would the "new wave" regard such a story as lacking "literary standards"? Because a) it has an interesting plot; b) John Lyle is a HERO, in the full sense of the word; c) It has an upbeat ending. > Life is often depressing, and there are bad things in the world. > Literature at its best can, rather than depress us further about > life, help us get a handle on it. I agree a 100% with this. In romantic literature (including the best of Golden Age SF) the "bad things in the world" are represented by all the dangers and obstacles the heros have to face - which are usually more sinister than most people's problems. By letting you see the hero acting purposefully to overcome these obstacles (and winning), literature at its best may inspire you to act purposefuly to overcome YOUR problems. This way, it can "help us get a handle on it". This is not true, however, for most of contemporary literature (both mainstream and SF). The only "handle" it can give you is a license to give up in the face of the horrible, hopeless world. If you want to characterize any kind of literature as "escape", this name would fit "new wave SF" more than any other kind. Eyal Mozes eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA (CSNET) eyal@wisdom.bitnet (ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 84 10:15:25 PST (Wednesday) From: lfeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Organ Banks for real ? I remember a short-short in a collection of short-shorts that dealt nicely with the problem. It was written about 1970, when freezing people (until cures for their diseases were developed) was also a hot topic. Remember the rumor about Walt Disney? In the story, a man is re-awakened in the 22nd century after being frozen in 1970. A short conversation with a man in his room discloses what has happened and a few wonders of the future. Then the conversation continues something like this: "Say, what about my estate? Did it hold out?" "No, I'm afraid you lost everything in the crash of 2091. In fact, I had to pay for having you revived." "You did? Well, thanks! That was very nice of you. Say, let me get up and have a look around." "Oh, no, please remain in bed. You have to rest up for the heart transplant operation." "But I was frozen for liver failure -- there's absolutely nothing wrong with my heart!" "No, but there's something wrong with mine...." Lawrence p.s. Sorry to not remember title and author. The anthology is something like 101 Science Fiction Short-Short Stories; Asimov is among the three editors. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 84 11:11:55 PST (Thursday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Here's the plot... To: mjc@CMU-CS-CAD.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Easily answered! I was there. Author (and Bard): Leigh Anne Hussey Story: The Riding of Idath In: Fantasy Book, December (Winter) edition, 1984 Her net address is: Lady Lleyn The story is part of a HUGE cycle of tales about the land of Lleyn. Commodore Perry, at your service. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Dec 84 19:40:59 PST (Thursday) From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Mimsy Were..., The Cyphertone, Absent Thee..., and Through Subject: All Those who are interested in Padgett's "Mimsy Were the Borogroves" may wish to read "The Cyphertone" by S.C. Sykes. This is an updating of the same idea, though not as well written. To avoid a spoiler, the following paragraph won't make much sense unless you have read Mimsy.... Remember the early (4 years ago) computer game toy Simon and it's imitations? Where the player tries to repeat a machine-generated sequence of flashing lights and sounds? The Cyphertone is just such a game, but in the pattern is hidden the information which is taught the children playing the game. Otherwise, the story is pretty much the same as Mimsy...enough so that I'm suprised the author isn't open to a lawsuit. All together, not a great story, but an interesting update of the idea. This story is available in The 1982 Annual World's Best SF, edited by Donald A. Wollheim. This includes "Absent Thee From Felicity Awhile", by Somtow Sucharitkul, which was much discussed in this space a few months ago. Also included is a great, great story called "Through All Your Houses Wandering", by Ted Reynolds. In the universe of this story, each of a dozen alien species has some variation on the telepathic ability to share and body, together thinking the same thoughts and sharing experiences. These range from going to visit each other in one body, to galactic meetings of many minds at one body, or at a body-less void, to protections against invaders of the mind, to ... well, read it and find out. Some of them are really quite alien intelligences. On top of this, our protagonist is thrown without much control into one body and then another -- following his story, we get to see each of these worlds -- while his amnesia prevents him from knowing which body, if any, is really his. (And you think you've got problems?) And as the story continues, there are more levels to this introduced -- quite a nice structure of complexity for a 54 page story. If anyone can recommend anything else by Ted Reynolds, I'd like to check it out. Lawrence "Thiss appearss to be a blank wash-er....The wheel of a toy truck. It will not do at all, sir." ------------------------------ Date: Thu 20 Dec 84 10:27:42-EST From: Elizabeth Willey Subject: Looking for a film... I am trying to locate, on VHS tape preferably, in a theater ideally, but just any way possible, an animated film called ALLEGRO MA NON TROPPO. It's a wonderful send-up of FANTASIA (stands on its own though) and I have seen it only once, about seven years ago. Director is Bruno Bozzetto or Bozzetti. It is in Italian (subtitled), but there is very little speech in it; it is mainly classical music and is very, very funny. I laughed till I cried during some of the sequences. Can anyone point me toward this? elizabeth@mit-oz ------------------------------ From: guy@anasazi.UUCP (Guy Finney) Subject: HHGTTG movie Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 13:07:33 MST Gee, I knew that satellite dish would come in handy... I just saw half of an interview with Douglas Adams of HHGTTG, Dr. Who, etc fame. I say half because I only got to see the Adams part of the link; I have no idea who might have been interviewing him (though he did end with "Thanks, Mort"). It was interesting to see what he looked like, and to hear a more extemporaneous form of his wit (rather like an interview with any of the Monty Python gang). The reason I'm posting this, though, is to pass along the news (I do hope this isn't old news - I so seldom get to say "Guess what?" and it's depressing to hear everyone else say "We know.") that Adams, with the producer(s) of "Ghostbusters", will be making a 100-minute-or-so feature film of HHGTTG in 1985. Apparently he's just relaxing now after finishing up his involvement with the game version (if I had that kind of money I'd relax a lot, too), and has taken to fiddling with computers for fun (says he has several now). He says he must discipline himself to "Put the toys away until I've written x more pages". He also muttered something about a fourth book, and I can almost remember seeing something fly by on the net about it. The harassed and battered people at my local B. Dalton (me too) would appreciate it if someone would let me know what it's called, as they only know about the first three. Guy Finney (decvax!noao!terak!anasazi!guy) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Dec 84 18:06 EST From: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: "The Starlost" TV series >otherwise very well done TV series called "The Starlost"... I remember this as an all-around stinker, although it has been a while. Does anyone else remember this at all? And didn't Ben Bova or someone write a book that was a takeoff on the production of this? Mark ------------------------------ From: dxa@bentley.UUCP (DR Anolick) Subject: Anyone know about a new SF TV show? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 84 13:18:23 MST Seen in yesterdays paper: Now that Stacy Keach apparently is out of reach for the next nine months, CBS has announced that his "Mike Hammer" series will be replaced beginning Jan. 26 with "Otherworld," a new sci-fi offering. "Otherworld" stars Sam Groom and Gretchen Corbett. It will be put into the schedule at 8 p.m. Saturdays, with "Airwolf" moving to the 9 p.m. start and "Cover Up remaining at 10 p.m. Does anyone know anything about this new sci-fi series? Are we finally going to get some good science fiction, or will this be the usual dreck? And who are Sam Groom and Gretchen Corbett? I can't place those names at all. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Here's hoping for a quality series. Droyan ..ihnp4!bentley!dxa David Roy Anolick ^ ^^^ ^^ ------------------------------ From: lauren@vortex.UUCP (Lauren Weinstein) Subject: Re: Anyone know about a new SF TV show? Date: Fri, 21 Dec 84 17:02:46 MST If memory serves me correctly, "Otherworld" was so bad that even the networks didn't see fit to put it into the primary schedule. Since "Hammer" was a very popular show, they decided to fill the gap with something the kiddies would be sure to like--mindless TV SF. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jan 85 1402-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #2 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART I ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) Subject: Merits of 2010 Date: Sun, 9 Dec 84 22:00:00 MST I am certainly a 2001 fan. I think it the greatest piece of movie making in history, and have seen it over a dozen times. And so to read previous reviews it should be implied that I hated 2010. Not so. I had already abandoned any chance that the movie could compare to 2001, and so I went in attempting to judge it as what it is, a movie based on the book 2010. In this respect it did well. Sure it got overdramatic, and had no understanding of gravity, and sure there the various other minor errors, but in a world where we are almost ready to accept whooshing spaceships and laser blasts you can see as the norm, this film was a breath of fresh air. SPOILER Are we sure that the character at the end of 2001 who reads the taped message is in fact Dr. Floyd? I was never certain of this. All this aside, in 2010 the book it is stated that Floyd knew of how HAL was programmed, and that he had voted against it, but had been overruled. This contrasts with the movie version, where he denies all knowledge. Of course in the movie, the character of Floyd was changed slightly from the high-in-government schemer to a tough good-guy. While I am not sure I like this change, they had to have him innocent in the deaths to strengthen this. It's where Hyams deviated from the book that he fails. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (The Napoleon of Crime) Subject: 2010 review (non-spoiler/spoiler sectioned) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 14:08:46 MST Summary: A movie I went into which I had some great hopes for, though not with comparisons to 2001 (I assumed that it was inimitable). Still, after reading the book, I had hoped that we would see a movie depicting what space travel would REALLY be like, and something which would try to exploit the feeling of wonder associated with space and with an alien encounter. Unfortunately, Peter Hyams (who, being director, screenwriter, and director of photography, must take the full blame) sacrificed all of this for quick laughs, cheap thrills and political intrigue, all of which appears pretty inconsequential when examined in context of the enormity of the monolith et. al. This is not a terrible movie; it is beautifully shot, and is entertaining. But it could have been, given the plot and situation Clarke (and Kubrick before them) provided, much, much more moving and exciting with relatively little effort or inventiveness on the part of Hyams. Instead, he seems almost intent on squashing out the visionary aspects of the book, and literally takes the low road. Basically a slow-moving hour-and-a-half with a fairly taut last-half hour. The ending itself is ludicrous and seems pretty out-of-character for creatures advanced enough to have provided the stimulus for the advancement of man, besides emphasizing a message Clarke never placed into it in the first place (though the very last scene is nice). You will probably not be bored by this movie, but you won't be moved by it much, either. SPOILERS FOLLOW Well, I'll try to add to what I have stated before: ATMOSPHERE: Looks to me as if Hyams so loved the cloudy, dark, ALIEN-rip-off lighting of OUTLAND he decided to use it here (apparently Intravision was used, also); for a movie which has for a subject the first (well, almost) encounter with an alien race, it tends to look more like a horror/suspense movie than anything. Where are the beautiful, stark vistas shown in 2001? Lord, it can't be THAT tough to do these days. It always looks like the giant mutant iguana lizard of planet X is going to jump out any minute. Only in the scenes which deal with Bowman/Starchild is there any flavor, any light (more on this later). It seems to show a place where space travel is a trudge, a chore rather like commuting in New York via the subway. SPECIAL EFFECTS: Well, next to Trumbell (who is the best... I've looked at scenes 15 times in BLADERUNNER without figuring out how the Hell he did it), Richard Edlund is probably the best in the business these days; and no one can deny that they are spectacular in this movie. But here we come across an interesting phenomena: a film where there is no flaw in the special effects except for their appropriateness. The LEONOV is shot from such a bewildering variety of shots, and in such poor contrast, that she might as well be the Death Star. Also, LEONOV's rotating section appears to create gravity in a satisfactory manner (however, I assumed there was normal gravity on the decks of the ship, as everyone was walking casually -- until Mirren and Schieder pull the pen/pencil stunt in mid-air to explain the escape method. Wha' happen?); but the ship falls into the non-smooth, bumpy-grimey style of every ship since Star Wars. The DISCOVERY, even after floating around for 9 years, and covered with sulfur, looks better. I would place the blame more on Hyams and the designer than Edlund... it still has some striking effects (especially the metamorphosis of Jupiter). THE SCRIPT: Well, here's my MAJOR GRIPE. I could go on forever about how Hyams trys to turn this into a audience-manipulation-emotion movie, like INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF WHOOPEE, with the energy jumping out of the hole in Europa (Jaws music should have been inserted), and the funny things everyone says, as if Hyams is saying, "This is probably too much for you to comprehend... I'll lower it all to your level." Huh. It's not that it isn't entertaining; it's just that I AM SICK AND TIRED OF "ENTERTAINING" SCIENCE FICTION! How about something with some vision and wonder? Cripes, if I see another band of hostilities. Some specific points: 1) The Russian & American subplot. Obviously, Hyams throws this in so that at the end he can pull a Michael Rennie and have aliens so advanced that we can't comprehend them say "Live in Peace and Love, baby!" My God, you think anything that advanced cares about diplomatic relations between two petty world powers? And the Russians in the film completely blow any feeling of comraderie in the book (which I enjoyed); is there something in Hollywood that says all Russians must be represented as sullen, hostile, and most of all, DUMB (why was Alexi killed? he wasn't in the book! I guess just to show Americans are smart, and Russians are dumb). And so much for being scientists... Really the worst thing about the movie. 2) John Lithgows walk in space ("Pant Pant!"). Come on, you think anyone responsible for Discovery's design and construction hasn't been spacewalking around the Earth or Moon for most of his time? Really stupid. Well, I'm running out of time. A few good things (and there are some): GOOD THINGS 1) HAL 9000. Very well done subplot, and the final discussion between he and Chandra had me misting up quite a bit. I'd like to think that my Fat Mac will like me that much. But this is brought from the book, as is most good stuff in the movie. 2) Roy Schieder's meeting with Bowman/Starchild. Very nice verbal interplay between Schieder and HAL. 3) Destruction of Jupiter... really made you feel the power it would take to do this. 4) The very last scene with the monolith on Europa... this is much more circular (with 2001) than Clarke's ending. It also shows the idea of a movie, which is to represent thousand's of words with appropriate images. Hyams did here; it is a shame he had to wait 2 hours before coming out with a great scene. "Texxon... Do what we say, and nobody gets hurt." Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ From: okie@ihuxi.UUCP (B.K. Cobb) Subject: Re: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 84 07:47:51 MST Okay, we're all wonderful experts on the technical problems in "2010." We take the flaws we think we see and we bow (excuse me, that's "blow") them up to show how truly lousy a movie it is. Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'll state right out that I liked 2010, and I disagree that it's "cheap kiddie thrills" or "Battlestar Galactica" quality. And it's not as technically inaccurate as some people have been saying. For example, the big beef seems to be that Hyams doesn't understand gravity -- or, more to the point, zero-gravity. Well, he manages to make a couple of mistake, it's true -- for example, when Chandra cries in HAL's "brain chamber," his tears shouldn't slide down his face since he's in zero-g -- they should just hang there, making it hard for him to see. But why is everyone complaining about the walking around aboard the Leonov and the Discovery? Most of the walking takes place in the grav sections of the Leonov (I'm sure you noticed the spinning portion of the ship, right?) When it occurs in the pod bay, you might harken back to the film you keep comparing it too; "2001" had lots of walking around in their zero-g pod bay, and on the zero-g control deck. You can safely assume that the shoes and floor surfaces use an attractive surfacing of some sort -- I did, and had not trouble with it the rest of the movie. If you complain about attention to detail, you might think about that point for awhile. And you might take another good look at the scenes where the two astronauts first enter Discovery -- they're standing upright on one of the *walls* of the pod bay, because of the tidal force from Discovery's spin. I think that shows a fairly good understanding of what's going on. And for me, the aerobraking sequence was quite good. Since the Jovian atmosphere is full of radical chemical compounds, there's no reason why the effect shouldn't look like it did -- I mean, how many of you have seen an aerobraking procedure? If you have, enlighten us -- if not, then one opinion on the "look" of it is as good as another. Other complaints... I agree that the roaring and whooshing in space detracted from the feel of the film; but that's the current state of treatment of such actions in American films. I don't like it, but most directors feel that the audience gets bored if there is not sound. Of course, I still think Kubrick got around this nicely by taking us inside the astronauts suit with sound, and it would still work today, but... I don't normally get in on these discussions -- I just like to sit and watch the flames flicker, so to speak. But I think too many people are busy enlarging small technical "problems" and missing the larger view. As a sequel, "2010" obviously doesn't measure up to "2001," and I don't believe Hyams ever intended it to. But on its own, "2010" is a good movie, an enjoyable and involving "people" story, and worth seeing. B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie "My God, it's full of critics!" ------------------------------ From: rcb@rti-sel.UUCP (Randy Buckland) Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 06:39:52 MST > As long as we're at it (the "mistakes" are about the most > diverting features of this fiasco) how about the scene when the > space-walking astronauts first approach the docking bay of the > Discovery? It's covered with some kind of space dust, like dirty > clay, and one of their first actions is to brush the surface with > their hands. This space dust is rather earthbound, for it doesn't > scatter in a cloud as you might expect (assuming that dust would > settle on a spaceship anyway) but acts remarkably like the dust on > my coffee table, being attracted to the surface, just like > gravity. That is because the dust and the Discovery is electrically charged. The effects between Jupiter and Io produce a great deal of sulfer dust and causes large static discharges between them. Every time Discovery passed between them, it was charged and some dust built up. This is what was causing the orbit to decay. This is all in the book. Read it! Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ From: mfc@hp-pcd.UUCP (mfc) Subject: Re: Re: another 2010 mistake (and more m Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 14:14:00 MST I should HOPE the accents weren't too bad! The actors speaking all that Russian were REAL RUSSIANS (read the last few issues of Starlog about the making of 2010). Mark F. Cook HP-PCD Corvallis, OR ..hplabs!hp-pcd!mfc ------------------------------ From: chabot@amber.DEC (l s chabot) Subject: All That 2010 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 13:04:42 MST Look, gravity on ships, okay, I'll put up with that. But gravity on ships for people and not for pencils? It seems to me that they took the neat pencil floating stuff from the shuttle to the moon and just had to do it too and combined it with the gravity on Discovery. Well, after all, the weight of a pencil ~= 0 compared to the weight of a human. Bye, bye, Newton. (Of course, what direct experience did he have with pencils in outer space, anyway.) I've got something to get off my chest: I liked 2001. Lots. I like Kubrick films (yes, especially "Barry Lyndon"). I didn't like 2010 because I didn't find it a particularly mature film, and it had what I consider to be some major flaws in physics, characterization, continuity, and plot. Frankly, I've always thought god is on Io, instead. L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: 2010 review (non-spoiler/spoiler sectioned) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 14:39:22 MST > 2) John Lithgows walk in space ("Pant Pant!"). Come on, you think > anyone responsible for Discovery's design and construction hasn't > been spacewalking around the Earth or Moon for most of his time? > Really stupid. I don't think that that's all that valid. How many of the designers of the Lunar Lander or the Space Shuttle have ever flown in them? He probaly did everything with computer simulations safe and sound in his office in Mountain View. I thought his panic was a nice touch, I loved it when he looks "down" at his feet and he seems to be just hanging there umpteen miles above Jupiter. Incidently, when he finally reaches the Discovery, wasn't the section of hull were he touched labeled "airlock"? > 3) Destruction of Jupiter... really made you feel the power it > would take to do this. I was disappointed that when we see the monoliths on Jupiter that the movie doesn't actually show them reproducing (doubleing in thickness then splitting in half). It just doesn't show what's actually going on, didn't give me the feeling of how the planet is just being totally inundated with these things. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin "It's sort of a threat, you see. I've never been very good at them myself but I'm told they can be very effective." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Jan 85 1440-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #3 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 3 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART 2 ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: lkt@ukc.UUCP (L.K.Turner) Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 07:09:47 MST cmaz504@ut-ngp.UUCP (Steve Alexander) writes: > ......................... I had always thought that there were > only 3 and if one was lost with Frank Poole, another when Bowman > had to enter the ship manually (ahem) and the last when Bowman > heads toward the monolith then why is that one there? In the book 2010 it explains that after Bowman had finished with HAL, he bought back the pod (The one he lost while entering the ship manually ) under remote control to the pod bay. > .................................... The suit without the helmet > in the docking bay may also be a blooper (shouldn't it be a helmet > without a suit?) but I haven't seen 2001 in awhile. I agree , this does seem to be a mistake. UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!lkt ( L.K.Turner) ------------------------------ From: kevin@voder.UUCP (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: 2010 review review Date: Thu, 13 Dec 84 15:14:57 MST > Much of the science of "2010" is questionable in the face of > what we knew, know and are learning. A new star appears in the > solar system and the earth escapes without a tremor. The Leonov > embarks without enough fuel to either return or slow down. They > do "air braking" (without air) to slow Leonov as she whips around > the planet and into a new orbit. How's that for science friction. Questionable? To who? Yes a new star does appear and if it popped up out of nowhere there would be problems - but it didn't, the mass of a currently existing object (one which many scientists believe is a failed star due to insufficient mass) was increased until it collapses inwards and the pressure ignites nuclear fusion and bingo! Besides, it stands to reason that the ones creating the new star would have checked things out to insure there would be no catalysmic consequences. The Leonov had just enough fuel to go to Jupiter and return provided she stuck to her previously computed schedule and left Jupiter when the Earth was in the right position, the "launch window" mentioned in the film. Due to the warning they have to leave NOW, not in two weeks when the Earth will be in the right position, but NOW. And for that there was insufficient fuel. Aero-braking is a valid concept, although I don't think the film was accurate as to the duration of the braking event. Any planet with an atmosphere has various layers depending on the types of gases found. The Earth's layer of hydrogen and helium extend for many miles beyond it's oxygen layer and Jupiter is practically all atmosphere. Although thin at the Leonov's altitude it's thick enough, considering the Leonov's speed, to create considerable drag. The approach is computed to "skim" through this layer, slowing the ship down just enough so it has the proper orbital velocity as it leaves the atmospheric drag. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin ------------------------------ From: faigin@ucla-cs.UUCP Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 12:27:04 MST cmaz504@ut-ngp.UUCP (Steve Alexander) writes: >Another mistake in the film (other than Heywood Floyd knowing that >the monolith hadn't been discussed with the crew) is the lone EVA >pod in the docking bay of Discovery. I had always thought that >there were only 3 and if one was lost with Frank Poole, another >when Bowman had to enter the ship manually (ahem) and the last when >Bowman heads toward the monolith then why is that one there? I believe that it is that way in the book, and so the film is just being true to the book. As to whether the book is in error, I am not sure. Daniel P. Faigin University of California at Los Angeles UUCP: {cepu|ihnp4|trwspp|ucbvax}!ucla-cs!faigin ARPA: faigin@UCLA-CS.ARPA USPS (Home): 11743 Darlington Avenue #9 Los Angeles CA 90049 (213) 826-3357 ------------------------------ From: ron@wjvax.UUCP (Ron Christian) Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake (and more mistakes) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 20:42:25 MST On the mysterious "returning" pod: According to the book, Bowman went EVA and retrieved the pod he left by the manual entry door. (That means the one in the movie SHOULD have had the door missing. Did anyone catch that? I can't remember.) Also according to the book, the rescue team used this pod by remote control to examine the monolith. This unmanned pod was the one that got destroyed when Bowman returned. I guess the director thought that wasn't dramatic enough. (Let's kill someone off!) I think Bowman's suit when he disconnected Hal was red, with a blue helmet. That makes the headless blue suit in the launch bay the other half. (I may have the colors mixed up.) I thought the Discovery sets looked cheap. The perspective was wrong in some cases, like Scheider's first glimpse of Bowman in the carousel. I heard a rumor that they had to rebuild the sets from footage of 2001, as the plans and original sets were destroyed. Can anyone confirm this? They really screwed up the zero gravity scenes. There is gravity only in the carousel (in Discovery) or the spinning section of the Russian ship. Yet you couldn't tell by the way people moved, objects rested, etc. which part of the ships they were in. Zero gravity depictation is probably an area where movies like Star Wars have actually done damage. Why was the method used to stop the Discovery's spin passed over? Probably because the director didn't understand it himself. See above. The control room of the Russian ship didn't look believable to me, either. No headrests on the chairs. Lots of protrusions to bang your head against in (supposedly) zero gravity. Low resolution graphics on most of the displays. (In 2010???) I *did* like the Russian launch bay. Aside from the fact that everyone was standing around, (AAAARRGH!!!) the set *looked* functional. I didn't hear anyone else complain about the complete axing of the Chinese expedition part in 2010 the movie. Like cutting out half the book. The whole point of the movie was the emergence of life on Europa, and this point was almost completely passed over. Hey, did anyone notice the resurgance of 1984 clothing styles in the year 2010? The apparent fad of wearing antique wrist watches? How about thirty-five year old calculators? Bah! The director should be shot. Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron ------------------------------ From: fetrow@entropy.UUCP (David Fetrow) Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 05:08:37 MST Let us not forget however that the sfx involving Heywood were flawed in 2001. The only technical error I remember there was when fluid within a straw he was drinking from went *down* in zero-G. As for the pod still being present in the bay (Betty I believe) in the book (2001) it was recalled before the final odyssey. -Dave Fetrow On a computer that couldn't for a moment be mistaken for SAL ------------------------------ From: alpert@nanook.DEC Subject: 2010 Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 21:02:03 MST Did anyone else happen to notice how after 9 years in orbit around Jupiter, all of Discovery's flat panel video screens (most of which were square or taller than than they were wide) were transformed into standard color CRT's? Must have been some strange side-effect of the monolith! ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-nanook!alpert ------------------------------ From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP Subject: Re: 2010 lights & switches Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 23:04:18 MST I for one liked the Soviet ship interiors very much -- seemed homey, cozy, and realistic compared to Discovery. What DID bother me about all those pretty colored banks of color-coded switches (stolen from organ consoles?): In *every* scene they are ALL IN THE SAME POSITION -- all off or all on. Would have been much more real, and added to the visual texture, if the switches had shown random on/off settings. Likewise the lights. I guess the sets were made with all those rocker switches cast from one solid piece of plastic, so they ccouldn't be set differently. mike k PS: I liked the exposed cables overhead; felt like a submarine, and quite in keeping with CLarke's description of a cramped, functional Leonov. PPS: Did you notice Alexi's pod was named "Grampy"? ------------------------------ From: cmaz504@ut-ngp.UUCP (Steve Alexander) Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 10:29:12 MST Once again someone has mentioned the infamous 'straw' mistake in 2001. Over the years I have heard various things about this - some claim that it is a true error and others say that because of surface tension etc that it really should happen albeit perhaps more slowly. With all the NASA people on the net perhaps someone could suggest that on a future shuttle flight they put the matter to rest once and for all. (if they already have let me know and I'll put myself to rest once and for all). ------------------------------ From: patcl@tekecs.UUCP (Pat Clancy) Subject: Re: Re: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 13:53:12 MST >Whats wrong with Air Braking!!! The "marshmallow" was the metalized >balloon that was deployed before the maneuver and ejected after >they had slowed down. The effect looked exactly as I would have >expected it to look. The marshmallow analogy should perhaps have included an explanation. The thing that ruined it for me was the trail of smoke left by the Leonov's passage through Jupitor atmosphere. Smoke is particulate matter which results from a chemical combustion process; ie., something's burning up. The only thing that could have been burning in this case was the balloon, but it seemed to (and had to) survive intact. Certainly the heating of the hydrogen/helium atmosphere would not have produced smoke. The space shuttle doesn't produce a smoke trail when it reenters, even in an oxygen atmosphere. Therefore, the reason the smoke trail is there is that someone in the special effects dept. thought it would look more dramatic that way, and to hell with reality. This is the same line of reasoning that gives us blasting noises from rockets igniting in space. To me it looked like a burning marshmallow, rather than a superheating spaceship. One or two people have stated that velcro on the shoes would explain why the actors appeared to be moving around normally in 0 g. Certainly we've all seen enough TV from the shuttle to know that people do not move and appear the same in 0 g as they do in 1 g, no matter how well their feet are anchored. This was one of the more inexcusable screw-ups by Mr. Hyames, part of the overall sloppiness and TV-series quality which pervade the film. Pat Clancy, Tektronix {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,hplabs}!tektronix!tekecs!patcl ------------------------------ From: spector@acf4.UUCP Subject: Re: another 2010 mistake (and more mista Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 08:09:00 MST I don't know how many on the net speak russian, but did anyone notice that the pod Max went out to play with the Monolith in was named "Grumpy"?? I wonder what the others were named ! :-) :-) BTW, the russian in the film was real, and the accents weren't TOO bad, but that doesn't make up for all of the other flaws. ------------------------------ From: js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) Subject: Re: Re: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 12:19:02 MST > One or two people have stated that velcro on the shoes would > explain why the actors appeared to be moving around normally in 0 > g. Certainly we've all seen enough TV from the shuttle to know > that people do not move and appear the same in 0 g as they do in 1 > g, no matter how well their feet are anchored. This was one of the > more inexcusable screw-ups by Mr. Hyames, part of the overall > sloppiness and TV-series quality which pervade the film. I'm sure they had a big budget for this movie, but it would probably have to be a lot bigger in order to make it look as though people were moving in zero g. But if they had enough money, they could have moved the whold production into space to avoid this inexcusable sloppiness. They could also try shooting very short sequences in some kind of free-fall elevator (like at some amusement parks). These are the only ways offhand I can think of to make it look as though people are moving in zero g. Both of them sound ridiculously expensive. Maybe we'll just have to live with things like that for awhile longer until some special effects genius invents artificial gravity. Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j "I've got it! We'll build the set under a 500' diameter sphere of neutronium! Let's see ... Neutronium $5000/ounce .... forget it." ------------------------------ From: hess@fortune.UUCP (Marty Hess) Subject: Re: 2010 review Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 14:05:37 MST > I came into 2010 not expecting a lot. After all, 2001 had been > directed by God in His Incarnation As Stanley Kubrick, but still > it is a major SF movie based on a book by one of the biggest > authors in the field. This reminds me of something I remember seeing last time I read 2001/2010: Somewhere in there Clarke stated that the book (2001) and the movie were done (more or less) in parallel. He also stated that doing this generated a much better product for both media, both technically as well as flow/plot development. Did I really read this, or am I dreaming? Anyone know of any other (name) authors that have produced a work in parallel with an alternate media version? What was the outcome? Marty Hess Software Engineering - Graphics UUCP: {sri-unix, amd, hpda, harpo, ihnp4, allegra}!fortune!hess DDD: Co.: (415) 595-8444 Me direct: (415) 594-2565 USPS: Fortune Systems Corp, 101 Twin Dolphin Pkwy, Redwood City, CA 94065 ------------------------------ From: rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: 2010 review - 2001 book/movie written together Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 21:31:07 MST My version of history goes like this: 2001, the book, was written in step with the movie. Clarke originally responded to a request from Kubrick for a "space epic" by sending him a short story called "The Sentinel," written in 1948 for a BBC competition. "Brainstorming," hard work and many revisions took it from there. The book really wasn't finished before the film was. This story is told by Clarke in "The Lost Worlds of 2001" Copyright 1972 "It's the thought, if any, that counts." Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: 2010 lights & switchesl- All one position? Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 13:03:54 MST Not so. Careful observation disclosed at least one board with two bright yellow type switches in different position from the others. Go see it again and look more carefully. "It's the thought, if any, that counts." Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jan 85 1022-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #4 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 3 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 4 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Chalker & Kurtz & Robinson & Collector's Editions (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Information Requested ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zubbie@wlcrjs.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck) Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn Date: Mon, 10 Dec 84 21:25:57 MST Aurora and the intelligent robots and the fact that our friendly master detective in Asimov's work is all part of a series of stories is part of the reason for developing Aurora. Read the NAKED SUN for more and better I can't off hand recall the rest of the titles in the series. From the mostly vacant environment of Jeanette L. Zobjeck (ihnp4!wlcrjs!zubbie) All opinions expressed may not even be my own. ------------------------------ From: carlton@masscomp.UUCP (Carlton Hommel) Subject: Re: Robots of Dawn Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 07:55:30 MST Several years ago, Issac Asimov postulated a future society. Earth was very crowded, with people people living underground, in conditions that would give a sardine claustrophobia. Earthers tended to be afraid of robots, because they would take jobs away from humans. The Outer Systems were underpopulated, and the few people living there embraced robots, using them for everything. Asimov set out to write three detective novels in this mythos. The first would be set on Earth, and would show its problems. Thus, _The Caves of Steel_. The second would be set on a world with a severe shortage of people, and too many robots. This world was Solaris; the book, _The Naked Sun_. At this time in his career, Asimov found writing "pop" science books to be much easier, and much more lucrative, so he never wrote the third book in the trilogy. This book would show a "balanced" society, where humans and robots got along in what we would consider a normal fashion. This world was Aurora, and there were hints in the other two books about its culture. Since "Star Wars", SF has attracted Big Bucks, and Del Ray Books offered Asimov Mucho $ to finish his trilogy, and write another "Foundation" Novel. Carl Hommel Wife: What does "RUR" stand for? Husband: Rossem's Universal Robots. ------------------------------ Subject: Chalker rides again Date: 29 Dec 84 22:51:29 EST (Sat) From: Marshall Rose As someone mentioned earlier, the third book of the "Soul Rider" series, "Masters of Flux and Anchor", just hit the stores (with a 1985 copyright, no less). ** minor ** spoiler As usual, Chalker goes to great lengths to describe the observable parts of his universe, and as the books progress, the internal mechanics become more clear. In the "magic" area, there are strong parallels between flux and a) the well, b) the warden molecule (from the less enjoyable "Four Diamonds" series). In the political area, all three books of this series spend a lot of time dwelling on the 1984-style political systems involved and the people (some well-meaning, and some not so nice) who run them. Summary: 1984-style governments are bad, not just bad, but down-right nasty. [Aside: Chalker wrote a book in '79 called "A War of Shadows" in which terrorists use germ-warfare against the US and the govt. goes 1984-style to "combat" the terror. micro summary: good.] Unlike the "Four Diamonds" series, the ending wasn't a let-down, despite the fact that a lot more was given away in "Soul Rider" prior to the last 50 pages. Summary: I liked this series, although the second book got disgusting at points. I think it's better than "Well World" and a lot better than "Four Diamonds". Your mileage may differ. /mtr ps: According to the author's notes, there are one or two more books coming(!!) describing how things got the way they were prior to the first book. Does this guy use a word processor or what? I hope he finishes the third book of the "Dancing Gods" series soon, the first two were hilarious. Ya' know, the way Chalker cranks things out, I really should have had him write my dissertation. ------------------------------ From: tw@hpisla.UUCP (tw) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: Wed, 12 Dec 84 13:35:00 MST Yes, the Deryni series is on my buy-immediately list also. I've just recently read "The Bishop's Heir" and have just two comments to make: (1) The title reference meant something completely different than what I thought - you only find out at the very end, and (2) I sure hope she hurries up and does the next one. I can't wait. Tw Cook {hplabs, hp-pcd, hpfcla}!hpisla!tw or twc@hplabs.CSNET HP Instrument Systems Lab, Loveland, CO (303)667-5000x3724 ------------------------------ From: jeanne@ucla-cs.UUCP Subject: Spider Robinson Date: Thu, 20 Dec 84 11:20:16 MST This is going to be a rapturous rave for Robinson's work. I've loved it for several years, but that was mostly based on the Callahan Crosstime Salooon stories--I have a weakness for puns and Spider has some really "vile" ones in his stories. However, in the last couple of months I have read a couple of his more serious works and have been unbelievably impressed. The man writes beautifully. I am normally the type who tears through books as fast as I can because there is just so much to read and so little time to read it all. When I notice the writing (as opposed to the story itself) on the first read through a book, there has to be something very special about it. I've never read descriptive passages in anything to compare with those in Spider's works; I've actually stopped to savor the descriptions and my reactions to them--it takes something special to stop my headlong flight through my reading. I finished reading "Mindkiller" last night. Needless to say, I recommend it extremely highly. It has two parallel plots (alternating chapters), both of which involve people you care about, in situations that challenge their minds, emotions, and lives. Some of the things that happen can be anticipated (or at least speculated about as possible), but there are some real surprises. (Chapter 2 appeared in Omni as a story called "God Is An Iron.) The other book I read (a couple of months ago) was a collection of Spider's short stories, called "Melancholy Elephants" (the title story won the Hugo Award for short story in 1983). Unfortunately, the book is only available in Canada at the moment. If you live there, get the book as quickly as possible. If you are here in the States, you either have to wait until the book comes out late in 1985 here, or get hold of friends or relatives in Canada and get them to send it to you. The book is worth the trouble to find it. The depth of human feeling in the stories is I met Spider and his wife, Jeanne, at Worldcon, and fell instantly in love with both of them. For those of you who are caught up on Spider's work, here's the word on what he has coming up. There is going to be a third Callahan book (in March) (hooray!). He is also finishing up his new novel (working title is "Time Pressure). He read the first chapter at the convention and it is an awesome beginning. So, for those of you who have yet to discover Spider Robinson, find his books wherever you can. It will be well worth the effort. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: collector's editions Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 20:12:37 MST From: stolaf!robertsl (Laurence Roberts) > ... What's your opinion of Wolfe and Disch (among others) > publishing unaffordable collectors editions that you'd be afraid > to read for fear of damaging them, even if you could afford > them... I'm not even talking about $18 hardbacks (although those > are bad enough). I'm complaining about $100 books, and somewhat > about Disch's booklets like _Ringtime_ for Toothpaste Press... > Opinions? Well, given that I'm one of those people that collects specialty press and limited edition books, it behooves me to put in my two cents worth. First off, there aren't many of these limited editions that don't also come out in trade editions, either hardcover or paperback. They are collectable for basicly two reasons: (1) they are a limited run item, which makes them rarer than the trade edition, and are usually much better made; and (2) they are usually, though unfortunately not always, the first editions of the books. Secondly, I don't understand why you're complaining --- you don't have to buy them. With a few exceptions, the trade editions are issued within a few months after the limited edition. And as I mentioned above, some small presses, though they intend otherwise, don't manage to get their limited editions out before the trade edition. In at least one case, Gene Wolfe's THE CASTLE OF THE OTTER, the book had an SF Book Club edition. There are likely as many different reasons why the authors have these editions published as there are authors. When Stephen King's THE DARK TOWER: THE GUNSLINGER was published by Don Grant, it was announced that there would be no trade edition of the book ever. Why? Well, for one, King didn't think that it was commercial. It's a rather convoluted fantasy, and he didn't think that his regular audience of horror fans would go for it. Secondly, King's roots were in fandom (his first published story appeared in a comics fanzine published by DC Comics writer Marv Wolfman), and he wanted to "do something that the fans could have that the mainstream audience could not". Oddly enough, when the list of books by King that appeared in PET SEMATARY included THE DARK TOWER, King, his agent, and his regular publishers were deluged with letters asking how they could get ahold of a copy. This prompted King and Don Grant to do a second edition. Like almost anything else, these collector's editions are like anything else --- they exist because there is a market for them, there is an audience that enjoys buying and owning them, and, yes, even reading them. You may find that there are some books published only in these expensive limited editions that you want to have but can't afford, but you can't always get what you want. That's just the way life is. If you want it bad enough, you'll pay for it. > From: ames!barry (Kenn Barry) > I *have* seen cases where there has been an unconscionably long > delay between the publishing of the collector's edition, and later > publishing of the trade edition. This seems to be an effort to > boost sales of the expensive version by withholding the affordable > copies, and I consider it a low practice. Ah, but is it really done in order to *boost* sales of the expensive edition, or to prevent *loss* of sales for the expensive edition. I know, this sounds like another "half-empty or half-full?" argument, but it really isn't. It's been demonstrated by at least one publisher (Phantasia Press) that if their edition gets delayed past the release date of the trade edition, or the trade edition gets shipped earlier than it's supposed to (which has happened on a few occassions), that it affects sales of the limited edition. The loss is mostly from that sector of the market that buys the limited editions solely because they are first editions --- if the limited edition isn't a first, then it is of no interest to these collectors. It also depends on what you may consider an "unconscionable" delay. Three months? Six months? A year? The latest Stephen King limited edition, THE EYES OF THE DRAGON was just issued (I got mine the other day), and it won't be available in a trade edition for 3 years. Why so long a delay, I don't know. It can't be to boost sales of the limited --- there were only a thousand copies done, and no one could seriously believe that they wouldn't sell out the print run even if a trade edition was issued simultaneously. Maybe like THE DARK TOWER, he wanted to give the dedicated fans a treat that would be unavailable to the general public for a good while. Or it could be that he's writing things so far ahead of his publishing schedule, that a trade edition just can't be done for three years. Of course, the *really* frustrating thing is when there appears the really obscure item such as Stephen King's THE PLANT, an excerpt from a novel in progress that was published as a small chapbook and sent to friends of King as a Christmas present. It's things like this that give the collectors so many headaches. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: kalash@ucbcad.UUCP Subject: Re: re: collector's editions Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 11:32:32 MST > I'm complaining about $100 books, and somewhat about Disch's > booklets like _Ringtime_ for Toothpaste Press... Opinions? There have been (to my knowledge) two limited books that cost more then $100, and both are Stephen King books. Most limiteds are in the range of 40 -> 50. > This seems to be an effort to boost sales of the expensive version > by withholding the affordable copies, and I consider it a low > practice. This is rarely (if at all) done. The people who make the limiteds and the people who make the trades usually are different publishers. The trade press usually just schedules the book, and the limited press scurries about trying to get to press and out the door in time. > The latest Stephen King limited edition, THE EYES OF THE DRAGON > was just issued (I got mine the other day), and it won't be > available in a trade edition for 3 years. Why so long a delay, I > don't know. King's normal publisher (Viking) doesn't want more than one King book out any any year, they like his books to be "events", and they don't want the books conflicting with one another. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: david@bragvax.UUCP (David DiGiacomo) Subject: Re: collector's editions Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 15:00:39 MST boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian) writes: >When Stephen King's THE DARK TOWER: THE GUNSLINGER was published by >Don Grant, it was announced that there would be no trade edition of >the book ever. Why? Well, for one, King didn't think that it was >commercial. It's a rather convoluted fantasy, and he didn't think >that his It's funny that you would use this for an example-- it was serialized in one of the SF magazines (perhaps someone could provide the references). No doubt the book version was altered, but some form of the story was available in a non-limited edition. For what it's worth, I'm much more offended by large-format "trade" paperbacks than collector-oriented editions. I wish publishers would just print rack-size paperbacks on non-rotting paper and charge a dollar more, instead of doubling the size and price. David DiGiacomo, BRAG Systems Inc., San Mateo CA (415) 342-3963 (...decvax!ucbvax!hplabs!bragvax!david) ------------------------------ From: kalash@ucbcad.UUCP Subject: Re: Re: collector's editions Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 10:43:01 MST boyajian@akov68.DEC (Jerry Boyajian) writes: > When Stephen King's THE DARK TOWER: THE GUNSLINGER was published > by Don Grant, ...It's funny that you would use this for an > example-- it was serialized in one of the SF magazines (perhaps > someone could provide the references). Sure, "The Magazine of Science Fiction and Fantasy" over a couple of different years, although these are very hard issues to find. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 20 Dec 1984 06:42:09-PST From: feldman%bartok.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Geoff Feldman HL02-3E09 From: 225-6023) Subject: needing information Does anyone know if NESFA has a Arpa net address? This would be for whomever is responsible for selecting events at BOSCONE. ---Geoff ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jan 85 1042-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #5 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 3 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 5 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL DUNE ISSUE - PART 1 ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "DUNE". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) Subject: Dune - The movie. STAY AWAY Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 22:00:00 MST The movie sucked. Except for budget it was a B movie, on a par with Superman III. I could go on for hours about all the thing wrong, but suffice to say you are luckier than me if you miss this one. The only thing worth it is the special effects, in particular some of the sandworm scenes. Characterization is nil mostly and pointless where it exists. Even good actors like Linda Hunt are in terrible roles. Sting is on camera for a few minutes, and his role is pointless. Major characters from the book are brought in for no other reason than to see them, and they usually don't get more than 3 lines. STAY AWAY FROM THIS FILM. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ From: dwight@timeinc.UUCP (Dwight Ernest) Subject: DUNE Review--Don't Miss It, But... (LONG, slight spoiler) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 84 16:17:26 MST I went to see DUNE last night with my wife, Sandra, and a friend she works with, Don. We're all in the same field, computers in publishing; Don has a remarkable capacity for trivia, and as we waited to go into the theater in the opening-night line, he stumped us constantly with various trivial facts about the DUNE books ("How did Gurney Halleck get his scar?" "From what feature in the Arrakis sky did the name M'uad D'ib come from?"). Incidentally, while we were standing in line, some people from the theater came around to pass out a commemorative book of credits for the film and a remarkably helpful glossary of terms from the screenplay (like FREMKIT, THUMPER, GOM JABBAR, etc.). (By the way, in the book, M'uad D'ib is a constellation in the Arakeen sky, "the one who points the way"--a constellation of a mouse of the desert, his tail pointing to the north; in the film, M'uad D'ib is an imaginary face in the second of Arrakis' two moons. Disappointing--never any reference to "pointing the way.") You've gotta see this movie, but... First, the negative, and then I'll tell of some of the positive aspects of the film. The film has an incredible quantity of self-importance, as did the books, but it wasn't nearly so oppressive in print as it was on the screen. One previous article here mentioned that the film was humorless for the most part, and that's very true. Comic relief would have been very welcome, and could easily have been worked into the screenplay. Just about the funniest part, disappointingly, took place during a brief development of the character of Piter De Vries played by Brad Dourif, the Mentat in the Harkonnen's employ, during his recitation of a Mentat mnemonic concentration-enhancement drill while in transit on an overhead monorail-type vehicle (resembling the 7th Ave. IRT in NYC) in the Harkonnen complex on Giedi Prime. Watch for it; but that's about all you'll see if you're looking for fun. This adaptation was also interesting in its choice of which violent scenes to use and which to avoid, along with the relative accuracy of the violence and gore, compared with that depicted in the book. It's interesting, too, to note throughout the film how much more emphasis was placed on gore and bloody detail instead of upon the relative sensuality/romanticism/loveplay that I recall from my first reading of the book where it described the love between Chani and Paul. Of a piece with these two points is the way women are depicted compared with the way I seem to recall them having been depicted (or WANT to recall their depiction) by Herbert in the first book: they're mostly spineless idiots, incapable of any truly forceful or decisive activity in the film, whereas in the book, most women were portrayed as very different from men (culturally, politically, psychically, etc.) but as relative equals. Certainly there are limits to what can be done in a film that runs a little over two hours compared with the several million words in the first book, but the liberties were in some case unnecessary and demeaning. Talk about unnecessary violence... in the film, all of those in the employ of the Harkonnens were equipped with "heart plugs" (?) that could be pulled in case of disobedience to leak out their life's blood quickly and grossly. These things were surgically installed in their chest and were frequently focused upon in the film. They were gross and terrible, which was probably the desired effect. But let's face it: the Harkonnens were bad, bad, bad; but not THIS bad. Some examples: # Kenneth McMillan as Baron Vladimir Harkonnen (who acted his part well, incidentally) isn't just grossly overweight and a sick pedophiliac with only a small remaining kernel of the old Honor of the Great Houses; he's seriously physically and mentally diseased without ANY regard for human life, to whom "honor" appears to be a concept he hasn't just forgotten, but apparently never knew. In his introductory scene (which is quite long), we see a young beautiful male captive enter the Baron's room, carrying flowers, with a look of terror in his eyes, accompanied by guards. The Baron finishes his conversation with Beast Rabban and Feyd-Rautha, and approaches (actually, kind of floats over to) the young man, who is dressed in transparent garments. The Baron passes beneath what appears to be a shower of motor oil (which he clearly enjoys), and then confronts the youth and violently embraces him. He then grabs the boy's heart plug release valve and opens it, revelling in the violent arterial bleeding which ensues, and sexually revelling in the rapid, terrible death of this young man and the spray of his blood. Yecccccch. (Feyd and the Beast look on this scene in rapturous voyeurism, incidentally.) This scene is SO GROSS that it's almost campy--I half-expected the Baron to turn to the corpse and ask, "Was it good for you, too?" and light a cigarette. # Both of the bedroom scenes I can remember in the film are disappointments. In the first, which must last AT LEAST six seconds, featuring Francesca Annis as Jessica and Jurgen Prochnow as Duke Leto, she, crying, turns to him and says, "I'll miss Caladan SO MUCH!" Uh-huh. End of scene! In the second, featuring Brooke Shields' almost-twin Sean Young as Chani and Kyle MacLachlan as Paul, Chani is half sitting up in bed and is attempting to comfort Paul following one of his prescient dreams, but, but, but she's wearing a halter top (which appears to be part of her stillsuit's undergarments)! Um, somehow I just can't picture Paul and Chani sharing a bed with any clothes on. This is just plain bad interpretation and bad direction... it would be very possible, without getting into the old tits & ass game, to still show this scene with a little more romanticism, and little more raw--or even refined--sensuality. Yes, they're an attractive couple together, but they're too cute. Too much like "teen romance" instead of the mature love story subplot it could have been. # When Paul and Jessica were fleeing from the sneak attack by the Harkonnens, and Jessica is facing the fact of her Duke's death, and Paul is realizing the extent of his growing awareness, she's almost a totally crippled, helpless, emotional wreck. This is a long distance from the strong- willed, clear-thinking, but grieving woman portrayed by Herbert. She sits weeping in the desert for what seems to be hours and hours. (And the stilltent was greatly missed, too.) # Alia, who is brilliantly played by Alicia Roanne Witt (and someone who did her overdubbing in an almost perfect technical tour-de-force), is shown pretty accurately in bringing about the demise of the Baron during the Fremen attack acros the Shield Wall; but later, when she was said to have departed the headquarters to help slay the wounded enemy (thereby earning her title, "St. Alia of the Knife"), all we see is about three seconds of her kind of doing a rain dance with the knife outside the building among the wounded. The whole point of Alia was that even at two or three years old, she was a Reverend Mother with little or no mercy, and a full-fledged Fremen; to act properly, she should have been looking after the Water of the Wounded. But they pulled this punch altogether. # Then there's the whole question of SPIT. In the book, we begin to realize how important water is, and how different the Fremen customs are from those the Atreides are used to, when Stilgar spits on the conference table in front of the Duke, where it's a gesture of great respect (a symbolic wasting of one's own water) and admiration. In the film, instead of using that scene (which was totally skipped), we see the Baron Vladimir spitting on Jessica's face as she's bound and gagged, about to meet her supposed death. So instead of spitting being a symbol of respect and differing customs, it's used here as an act of violence against a trussed woman. The effects are technically disappointing, especially the worm riding, which is almost as silly as the effects from "Plan Nine from Outer Space." But the artistic depiction of the worms is done with great accuracy to the drawings we might all remember from the Dune Calendars and the "Illustrated Dune." The Fremen weaponry ideas the filmmakers chose were just plain stupid. They are some kind of Voice amplifiers, and they're too boring even to explain. The ornithopters are badly done and not accurate at all. (Gee, as a student pilot, I was really kind of looking forward to the 'thopters, too. Forget it.) Two scenes from the book that stood out in my mind as having great cinematic potential were not even included in the film. The first, which takes place just after the Atriedes arrive on Arrakis, is the famous dinner party scene, in which there's a great intriguing interplay between the guests, and in which the dialogue could have been some of the best ever filmed. Could have ranked in memory with the Cantina scene from "Star Wars." Totally skipped. The second, which takes place the evening after the dinner party, would have had doubtful and disturbed Duncan Idaho returning to the House after a bout of drinking Spice Beer and confronting an outraged Jessica with his factually groundless suspicions of her coming betrayal. This would have been a great opportunity for Duncan, played by a really rafish Richard Jordan. Totally skipped. Prochnow's Duke was an exception to the mostly great casting and a disappointment. I was expecting a deeper-voice, physically larger man with more PRESENCE. He had great, gentle eyes, and did a great job, but he just wasn't the right guy for the part. His voice was too high-pitched, too gentle, too soft. Everett McGill as Stilgar wasn't nearly as fascinating a character as he could have been. The direction left no time for the development of the Fremen leader's psyche, his motivation, his ethics. The Mentats were only sort of passable. So much more could have been done with this discipline. Freddie Jones as Thufir Hawat was too emotional for the human calculator. And now on with the positive comments. MacLachlan, although he's a pretty preppy (as mentioned by another article writer), is appropriately regal and does a fine job as Paul Atreides. This guy was a casting coup de grace... he really fits in with the way he was portrayed by Herbert. As I mentioned, Brad Dourif as Piter De Vries was pretty good as Piter De Vries, the totally twisted Mentat. It's not his fault he didn't get a chance to develop his character more and was seriously crippled by bad direction. Francesca Annis as Jessica was appropriately beautiful, with a spectacularly pretty face (especially that nose, for some reason). She did a truly good performance; too bad the screenwriters made her part so damned wimpy. Annis and Prochnow made a believable royal couple--they looked RIGHT together. Again, it would have been spectacular instead of just good if only they'd had the chance. Sting as Feyd Rautha got an increidible welcome when he first appeared on screen, at least in the theater where I saw it. He was an almost perfect interpretation of the character, and his performance was excellent. The costumery was excellent as well--those Bene Gesserit robes, headdresses, and dresses are going to stand out in my mind for a long time to come, and some of the best cinematography in the entire film included shots of the Bene Gesserit women simply WALKING, with their costumes flowing about them. Very correct. The Guild Navigators, left mostly to the readers' imagination by Herbert, were something out of a VERY strange but vividly appropriate dream. (They were said to have the "ability to fold space when deep within a spice trance," when we all know that this is a technical accomplishment rather than a psychic one, and that the Navigators really use the spice trance to see the way rather than to perform the ~"motion without motion" (a quote from the film) itself. But I'm getting picky, I guess.) Their physical shape, only dimly perceived through the spice gasses, was sort of the way I had imagined them. (Curious, though, that the speech organ of the Navigator should so closely resemble a deformed but articulating human pudenda.) The rolling coffin-like monstrosity in which the Navigator arrived in the court of the Emperor was really well-done, and that scene is quite memorable. The Princess Irulan (Virginia Madsen), who appropriately introduces the story we're about to see, is played well, and she's a very attractive actress, but except for the opening, we only see her kind of standing around among the Emperor's court. (Yet another example of the disappointing background roles given to the women in the film.) In summary, don't miss this film. It's more than just worth seeing. But be prepared for some disappointments, and understand that they're mostly due to the limitations of the medium and the compression of the already extremely dense writing by Herbert. DUNE, the first book, had at least three good major feature-length motion pictures in it alone (perhaps most appropriately broken up along the way the three books-within-the-first-book are divided). This single film attempts to compress that entire long novel into a single motion picture, and in so doing many important details get lost. --Dwight Ernest KA2CNN \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight Time Inc. Editorial Technology Group, New York City Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523 \ EIES: 1228 Telemail: DERNEST/TIMECOMDIV/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jan 85 1103-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #6 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 3 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL DUNE ISSUE - PART 2 ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "DUNE". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer) Subject: Dune--review (non spoiler) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 84 23:29:37 MST I should start by saying that I have never read any of the Dune books, and can't criticise the movie based on expectations from the books. I've been very surprised by the mountains of bad reviews which have come out upon the movie's release, especially after having seen it this evening--I liked it very much, and find that many of the complaints about the movie seem to miss the mark. It is an almost bombastically lavish production, and very stylish. In fact, it wouldn't be too off the mark to claim that the "stars" of the film are the sets. If most of the crop of SF movies are high-tech, and reflect a modernist sensibility, then perhaps "Dune" is the first post-modernist SF movie. Its sets are H.G. Wells meets Art Deco, and are very very beautiful. Some $40M was spent on the movie, and it mostly shows. I was most impressed by the complete realization of these other worlds; I was drawn in totally by this fantasy vision. Yes, it is a bit tedious at times. Yes, situations can get a little confusing, at least for those who haven't read the books (in this regard it reminded me of the Bakshi "Lord of the Rings" movie, which was similarly incomprehensible.) But I was so impressed by the force of the film's vision and its sheer scope that I didn't care to nitpick. This is a dark, brooding SF-noir film, and almost totally without humor-- some characters are bizarre or funny, but the movie takes itself VERY seriously. But it is this earnestness which makes it so appealing. It can be appreciated as a serious myth or as pure camp. Either way, these would have been destroyed if it self-consciously played with humor a la Star Wars. Kyle MacLachlan's Paul Muad'Dib Atreides is such a perfect cypher of a character, someone every techie can imagine being, that I thought the subtitle of this movie was "Nerd Messiah." The other characters are wonderfully realized, too. -- /Steve Dyer {decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer sdyer@bbncca.ARPA ------------------------------ From: dub@pur-phy.UUCP (Dwight) Subject: Dune review (spoiler) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 13:12:28 MST My reactions after having seen Dune are very mixed. First of all, I should mention that I've read the book twice and enjoyed it greatly. From all of the terrible pre-reviews I'd seen about Dune I went into the theater not expecting too much. The movie started out rather well I thought. The political situation is laid out for the viewer to comprehend and all of the important parties involved are introduced. The plot seemed to be following the book like a shadow. We get to see all of the facets of Paul's development and his devotion to his father, the Duke, comes through quite well. I really liked their shields. After they arrive on Arrakis the film still looks pretty good. The scene where the Duke goes out to inspect the spice mining was very well done and also the scene with the "seeker" in Paul's bedroom went off very well. Sure there were minor things I didn't like; the Navigators looked like a cross between Jabba and Leto II, the Baron was a bit skinny and seemed less "dark" (if ya know what I mean). But the settings looked fairly good. Many little things I didn't like I can trace back to my comparing the film to the book; in other words, things that might displease a Dune fan, but not the avg. movie goer. The trouble really starts for this film when the Baron attacks the Duke. The battle scenes looked very poor; alot of people just running around with an occasional explosion. Not at all realistic in my opinion. My next-to-biggest disappointment was that the "fierce" Fremen didn't strike me as being all that deadly. The entire Fremen culture is not developed for the viewer to the point where we really understand them. (The stillsuits are explained very well in the film but where are the face masks and they are always forgetting to exhale through their mouthpieces.) We hear Paul tell his mother to walk non-rythmically but in the next scene they go marching across the desert. Even the Fremen are guilty of this. One good point was that even though the thumpers looked rather perverse (in and out and in and out) Paul's first worm ride looked really neat! (neat - a ancient term meaning megafun) The biggest failure of the movie in its post-"Baron invades Arraki" part is to protray Paul as the "superior being" (sorry, can't remember how to spell the H..............). The movie goer is given no idea of just what the heck the spice has done to Paul's conscienceness. The images that the film uses to try to convey this facet of Paul are totally obscure. Paul's obsessively constant remarks about Dune's smaller moon are never explained. The ending.... maybe I have got complete amnesia, but I don't remember Paul making it rain at the end of Dune. Making it rain would only kill off the worms and sandtrout. Also, there is a narrative saying that after Paul's victory over the Emperor at the Shield Wall there was at last peace in the universe. Like hell! Paul brought a jihad and that sure weren't peaceful! The ending to this movie may have been ok for a movie goer, but for this Dune fan it left a lot to be desired. I'm a Sting fan so I liked his fight at the end with Paul. In fact, the way Gunry Hallek wanted to do all sorts of nasty things to Fyern(sp)(Sting), I was mentally rooting for Sting to win. But anyways, I've seen advertisements for Dune that gave Sting top billing! That last scene is the only scene he has any importance in. To summarize: First half was ok, second half lousy. Liked the worms, though. Net result, there are tons of characters in Dune (the book). Dune (the movie) introduces them all one way for another, but most of them never get developed one bit. The result is a somewhat confusing movie. This production should have been an eight hour mini-series. There is just too much in Dune (the book) to put into a 140 minute film. Hope this review was readable, sorry if it wasn't. Dwight Bartholomew UUCP:{decvax,icalqa,ihnp4,inuxc,sequent,uiucdcs}!pur-ee!pur-phy!dub {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,siemens,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!dub ------------------------------ From: don@allegra.UUCP (D. Mitchell) Subject: Herbert versus Lynch Date: Sun, 16 Dec 84 02:49:10 MST If you came to see a David Lynch movie (as I did), you will be delighted. There is no hint of cute robots, and everything is not made out of Chrome and Corningware. This movie is not cute. It is dark, Byzantine and outlandish. If you read Dune, I don't know what you will think. Herbert is there, but so is Lynch. One of my friends is very upset by Lynch's screenplay. Movie critics on PBS (the two guys with the dog) hated it, but they clearly didn't follow the story very well. One complained about the gratuitous violence of tearing a boy's nipple off. It was not his nipple, and the movie made that clear (it was a surgical implant, but I don't want to say more about the plot). The point is, this is a very complex movie. Lynch is not use to making movies for general consumption. I have heard that Lucas was worried that the last Starwars movie might lose the audiance, and Dune's plot is much more intricate. The movie has obvious flaws. Like all Sci-Fi epics, the acting was so bad it made the audience laugh at times when I saw it. They also laughed when people were shown riding sandworms. I think the non-Dune-readers thought the sandworms were a silly idea. ------------------------------ From: ag4@pucc-h (Angus Greiswald the fourth) Subject: (almost) short Dune review for those who've read the Book Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 01:53:46 MST If you enjoyed the book as much as I did, you will be disappointed by the screenplay's complete inability to encompass the book. Of course this is what you all probably expected, just wanted to confirm it - go see the movie like you were planning to (or already have). The movie is reasonably faithful to the 'main' plot of the book (Atreides vs Harkonnen), the biggest let-down, besides above mentioned FLAW extraordinare, is the ending: none of the awesome power that the book managed to express is present in the movie. In fact, the mood of the entire movie is so exaggerated that it isn't particularly funny (it seems *everyone* has to whisper mysteriously for about 70% of the movie!). What Herbert was able to pull off so well and believably, the movie just doesn't. Another big gripe is that the screeenwriter simply didn't have the ability to translate much of what was going on in the plot without resorting to listening in to character's thoughts left and right. Last gripe: since it's obvious they weren't going to be able to to fit in anything but the main plot, they should have concentrated on making that much smooth and believable. There were many scenes or dialogues that really didn't have any meaning in the context of what the movie was presenting. Sure they were in the book, but wouldn't have made any sense to any poor sod who hadn't read the book because they didn't relate to anything previously shown in the movie. Of course, they must have done something right, 'cause the guy I saw it with, who hadn't read the book, nor is a devoted SF-lover, liked it and was inspired to get the book - even after hearing all my bitching! I'm just very biased and really was praying for much more than the movie gave, that's all. "and remember, Christmas spirit is -- not what you drink" Jeff Lewis {decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie ------------------------------ From: ddb@mrvax.DEC (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076) Subject: The flying nun...er, baron Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 13:26:31 MST Dune movie review -- probably spoiler, possibly flame. If you haven't subjected yourself to DUNE the movie yet, DON'T GO. It's a horrible, horrible, travesty of the story. I'm VERY short of time right now; possibly I will flame at length later. Briefly, the entire political reason behind the Atreides moving to Arrakis is twisted and blurred. The power relationships within the empire are distorted beyond recognition. The social structure of Arrakis and the Fremen is not mentioned, or totally redesigned (and stupidly). Paul's character and motivation are completely different from the book. In general, the characters and their relationships are completely different from the book (or completely absent -- the relationships, that is). For example, Paul's main motivation is given as revenging his father. He actively starts the Jihad (which he spent most of the book trying avoid). Paul identifies himself as the "hand of god". At the end of the movie, it rains on Arrakis. There is no vestige of the complexity and depth of invention from the book left in this pitiful butchered hulk. [For those in it only for the visuals, it's pretty. The sandworms were VERY well done.] On a scale of -4 to +4, give a a -3.5 . I make no pretense of judging it apart from the book. By using the title Dune and claiming to be "based on the novel by Frank Herbert", it ties itself to the book; it should at least tell some part of the story told in the book, about some people recognizably similar to the people in the book. It doesn't. I don't think it could be considered a decent film even on its own. DON'T SEE IT. YOU'LL REGRET IT. -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ From: gtaylor@lasspvax.UUCP (Greg Taylor) Subject: Re: DUNE Review- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 84 12:08:59 MST Summary: I gotta agree with the general press so far, but perhaps be a little less graceful. The story is a muddled mess. The internal dialogues are poorly used (reminded me of a Certs commercial)-but what could be done. TOTO's score (somebody had to be *really* coked up to have thought of that) is at best totally ignorable and at worst ridiculous (notably the electric guitar chord that keeps showing up while the Fremen are up riding on the giant sofa bolster-OOPS, *sandworm*. Good stuff: Visually, the movie is *so* well done that you wind up filled with a sort of rage at the fact that everything else is so poorly done. As science fiction, the sense of an "other" but complete world is brilliantly done. In fact, there is this occasional sense watching Lynch trying to control the morass that the little details (the little "squash the mousie" cocktail comes to mind here)nearly do it:it's the sense of detail visually that *almost* carries the whole bloody film. That sense of detail is nearly totally lacking in the rest of the stuff. The good roles are all bit parts. That should warn you of something. Lynch does a creditable job of using the visual details of the film to carry his narration. The murk of his earlier films is strongly here (my SO suggested that the Guild steersman was the baby in Eraserhead, grown and holding a respectable job), but he's got too much to do, and too many loose ends. As a feast for the eyes and the imagination, give it a 9. As a faithful version of the Herbert, uh..... give it a pass on the basis of extenuating circumstances. As a movie, give it a crutch. Greg ------------------------------ From: don@allegra.UUCP (D. Mitchell) Subject: Dune should be 4 hours Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 16:18:26 MST I would like to know if there is really a 4-hour version of Dune. Is that just a rumor? I have certainly seen stills that were not in the movie (e.g. Shadout Mapes confronting Jessica with a crysknife). My main objection to the movie was that it was edited down to incoherence. (Why show Kynes being cast out when you are never told he is the secret leader of the Fremen?) If there is a 4 hour version, it is certain to appear in Greenwich Village and a few other pockets of civilization. (OK, that should have gone to net.gloat. Sorry.) I guess a lot of people are objecting to Lynch's overall vision of Dune. I think that is just conservatism. Lynch has an amazing imagination. So don't miss this movie because someone tells you it is too weird or because someone thinks there should be comedy relief (what an appalling suggestion for Dune!). If you read the interviews with Lynch, you will see that he has a lot of respect for the story (maybe more than it deserves). He has thought about what things would look like after an anti-automation revolution. And how does the corrupt and Byzantine politics of the time effect the imagery. Should we be shocked if Dune looks more like Satyricon than Starwars? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jan 85 0044-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #7 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 6 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Hallelujah!, Books - Adams (4 msgs) & Goulart & Powers & Robinson & Sucharitkul, Films - Movie/Book Combinations, Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Jan 85 21:50:09 EST From: Saul Subject: Administrivia HALLELUJAH!!!!!!! It seems that we have finally solved our problems in regards to the connection between SF-LOVERS on the ARPA network and NET.SF-LOVERS on USENET. When SRI changed machines, our connection was lost. We now have a UNIX machine here at Rutgers and we are connected to the network and have re-established our connection between the two newsgroups. This means that messages mailed to SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS will be queued up for the digest as before but will now also go to net.sf-lovers on the usenet automatically. Messages passing through net.sf-lovers on the usenet will now be forwarded to me for the digest so the people on the ARPA network can read and enjoy. A very special thanks to the following people: Mel Pleasant (Pleasant@rutgers) for writing the code and helping to set things up for us; and Donn Seeley (Donn@utah-cs) for forwarding usenet messages to me in the interim. And now, on with the show....... ------------------------------ From: mss!jpj@topaz (J. P. Jenal) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book? Date: 3 Jan 85 19:18:28 GMT I was gifted with this novel for Christmas and I would definitely agree that it is a good (and fast) read - assuming that you enjoy the Adams style. However, I think that this story has more of a moral character than the earlier novels - which seemed to be nothing more than fun and fluff. I won't prejudice anyone by giving my views on the intent of the Epilogue but I would be interested in hearing what others thought Adams was trying to say. Cheers... Jim Jenal (aka ...!scgvaxd!mss!jpj) Mayfield Senior School ( " ...!ihnp4!mss!jpj) ------------------------------ From: ucsfcgl!rl@topaz (Robert Langridge%CGL) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book? Date: 28 Dec 84 18:13:29 GMT There is indeed a new Douglas Adams book, the "*Fourth* Book in the Hitchhikers Trilogy", entitled "So Long, and Thanks For All the Fish". (Harmony Books, a division of Crown Publishers, NY, 1985. Price? I don't know, mine was a present and the price was deleted). In summary, I was disappointed. Perhaps it is difficult to keep up the frenetic zaniness of the earlier books, and although I would never accuse Adams of writing clear and unambiguous prose, this volume is particularly unfocussed. Even the celebrated non sequitors and incongruities are in short supply. Ford Prefect is present (though in a diminished role), and there is a major new character, an attractive lady named Fenchurch, and a major new minor character, Wonko the Sane, who lives in a house whose roof "...folded back on itself like something that M.C.Escher, had he been given to hard nights on the town, which it is no part of this narrative's purpose to suggest was the case, though it is sometimes hard, looking at his pictures, particularly the one with all the awkward steps, not to wonder, might have dreamed up after having been on one,..." Advice? Wait for the paperback, then buy it to occupy a short plane trip. Bob Langridge (UUCP: [...]!ucbvax!ucsfcgl!rl) Computer Graphics Laboratory (ARPA: rl@ucbvax 926 Medical Sciences or University of California langridge@sumex-aim) San Francisco CA 94143 ------------------------------ From: mtxinu!ed@topaz (Ed Gould) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book? Date: 28 Dec 84 20:36:46 GMT I saw a published comment on the forthcoming fourth book in the Hitchhiker's trilogy. The thing I noted about it was that the collection is *still* (explicitly by the author) a trilogy! Ed Gould {ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!ed ------------------------------ From: ukma!david@topaz (David Herron, NPR Lover) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book? Date: 29 Dec 84 06:02:39 GMT Yeah....It's been done already, but here goes anyway..... The new book is titled "Good bye, and Thanks For All The Fish". It concerns the life of Arthur Dent after he has saved the universe multiple times, and is tired of being a galactic wanderer, and goes back to Earth. Yes, it is still there. I won't tell any more, but will include the obligatory quote that the other reviewer had. THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, in a moment of reasoned lucidity which is almost unique among its current tally of five million, nine hundred and seventy-three thousand, five hundred and nine pages, says of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation products that 'it is very easy to be blinded to the essential uselessness of them by the sense of achievement you get from getting them to work at all. 'In other words -- and this is the rock-solid principle on which the whole of the Corporation's Galaxywide success is founded -- their fundamental design flaws are completely hidden by their superficial design flaws.' He also meets a girl, falls in love at first sight, and spends many chapters trying to meet up with her again. These scenes go like some scenes in _The Lonely Guy_...... It's a good read. Not sure though if his intent was simply to finish up some loose ends or to start a new storyline. David Herron; ARPA-> "ukma!david"@ANL-MCS (Try the arpa address w/ and w/o the quotes, I have had much trouble with both.) UUCP (follow one of these routes) {ucbvax,unmvax,boulder,research}!{anlams,anl-mcs} ---\ vvvvvvvvvvv >-!ukma!david {cbosgd!hasmed,mcvax!qtlon,vax135,mddc}!qusavx ---/ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985 10:59:22-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: addition to SF-LOVERS...ARPA I have been an avid SF fan for years, since I was weaned on "Runaway Robot" at a tender young age (quite by accident). Of all the wonders I have seen in my mind from all the best writers (and the worst), I have never heard of Ron Goulart. Who, or should I say what, is a Ron Goulart? Gaylene p.s. Also, I saw Dune! The best rendition of a SF novel I have seen yet!! One tid bit - the movie was dedicated to Dino's father. ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: GATES OF ANUBIS Date: 2 Jan 85 13:06:00 GMT THE ANUBIS GATES by Tim Powers Ace, 1983, $295. A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This book got a lot of rave reviews, so I was really looking forward to something special in it. Maybe I was expecting too much. Oh, it's an okay book, but not up to its raves. The premise (as best I can explain it) is that Brendan Doyle, a professor whose specialty is a little-known early Nineteenth Century poet named William Ashbless, gets involved in a time-travel scheme. Unbeknownst to him, however, an ancient Egyptian sorcerer is also trying to use the "time gates" and Doyle soon finds himself stranded in 1810, with the evil sorcerer hot on his trail. Also involved is a werewolf who can transfer from one body to another and various other supernatural characters. The purpose of the werewolf at times seems to be to confuse the reader--several characters change bodies with him, so it's almost impossible to figure out who's who. This isn't helped by the fact that some of the characters also spend time masquerading as other people, or by the fact that the sorcerer is creating ka's--exact clones--of the main characters. Not only can you not tell the players without a scorecard, you can't even tell them *with* a scorecard! As you might guess, trying to keep all this sorted out detracts from some of the pleasure in reading the book. There are a couple of other twists thrown in, but some of what the author seems to expect to surprise the reader can be predicted well before. (The blurb on the back of the book doesn't help.) Powers does do a good job of conveying a sense of horror in Romany's (or is it Romanelli's) underground laboratories and many of the individual incidents are well-constructed and exciting. It's just trying to put them together into a coherent story that doesn't work so well. This isn't the sort of book you can skim through half-asleep before bedtime. It should probably be read all in one sitting. (To be fair, I should point out that I read it over a period of two weeks, so perhaps that was part of the problem.) If you're willing to put in the effort, there is a lot to like here, but you've really got to dig to find it. Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jan 85 20:05:45 est From: norm@maryland (Norm Glick) SUBJECT: Spider Robinson--MINDKILLER I showed the SF-LOVERS correspondence about MINDKILLER to my author wife. She felt strongly about the discussion and generated the following response for me to share with you. Norman Glick I am jumping into your discussion of Spider Robinson with both feet! The controversy interested me since I am a professional writer. (Some of my books are kids' adventure science fiction novels, one of which--MINDBENDERS, Scholastic, 1984--is about mind control.) As a teenager, my primary reading interest was SF. I'm not into the field so heavily now, although my teenage daughter is. Several months ago she recommended Spider Robinson to me. But it was the ARPANET correspondence that finally tempted me to buy MINDKILLER. I agree that there is a lot of good stuff in the book. Robinson creates characters that I care about a lot--particularly Joe and Karen. He also has some wonderful imagery--which always adds to my enjoyment of a book. As for the Heinlein comparison, I will go on record as saying that I was a rabid Heinlein fan until he lost his self-discipline--in the middle of THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, I think. After that, there are simply too many words. (No, it's not like AMADEUS where Mozart is accused of having too many musical notes!) I read a recent interview with Heinlein in the "Washington Post" in which he proudly pointed out that his contracts no longer allow any editing of his stuff. He said something like "If I have a comma in the middle of a word, they have to leave it." Unfortunately, he'd probably be better off if he did allow someone to cut through the excess verbiage. One of my basic thoughts about writing is that as soon as you have the freedom to do WHATEVER YOU WANT, you're not producing your best stuff. Robinson has the nice, tight style of the old master. He also writes sex scenes that Heinlein never could. (I have been struck by the fact that maybe only Heinlein could write a boring orgy.) The bondage scene in MINDKILLER is a turn-on--but Robinson takes it a wonderful step farther by exploiting the humor of what happens. However, I found one aspect of MINDKILLER seriously disappointing. (I have a problem in talking about it without spoiling the end of the book for others who may want to read it. So I hope you will pardon me if I become a bit oblique.) Because of the premise Robinson sets up, the plot resolution simply CAN'T be intrinsically satisfying. Think about why the end of THE PUPPET MASTERS is so fulfilling. Robinson has set up a situation where the reader can't get that kind of vicarious kick. For the book to have really worked on that level, I think Joe and Karen would have had to have found the "mindkiller" earlier. With that out of the way, they could have gone on to confront some other substantial threat (integral to the story)--so that the reader could feel satisfied at the end. Robinson apparently had some worries about the ending since he brings in another villain at the last minute--but he's not important enough to the story. (And the threat he represents doesn't occupy enough space.) When I finished the book, I felt let down-- despite the warm fuzzies in the last paragraph. (One more complaint about the satisfaction delivered by the ending-- and I would be curious to know whether this represents a difference between male and female readers. I would have liked to have found out how Joe and Karen worked out their personal relationship--rather than just being left to assume that they did.) I wonder if others had the same reactions. Of course, if Robinson hadn't written an engaging and provocative story, I wouldn't be talking about any of this at all-- because I would have put it down long before I got to the end. Let me add that in the middle of going through this careful analysis of MINDKILLER, I was struck with an interesting irony. ("God is an iron.") In one of my own books, DOOMSTALKER, which is part of Scholastic's MICRO ADVENTURE series of fast-paced kids' adventure stories with computer activities, I think I set myself up with a similar structural predicament, although I do provide a strong alternate set of villains. I hadn't even realized the problem until I thought about MINDKILLER. Ruth Glick ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 2 Jan 1985 13:09:41-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul On Somtow Sucharitkul, I've read "Mall World" and found it to be very strange. The book was very scattered (i.e. hard to follow, not much character development, too many loose ends). I'm not going to pass any judgement on his writing just the book in particular. Has he written anything else that I could get a better perspective from? By the way, does anyone have any other information on him, other than what else he's written? (i.e. who is he? where did he come from? is he actually a "he"? or?) Gaylene ------------------------------ From: kcarroll@utzoo.UUCP (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Movie/book combinations Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 14:38:31 MST I'm not sure of this, but I think that there has been at least one other SF movie made, if not at the same time that the book was being written, then at least in concert with the author of the book: the movie Destination Moon, based on a book by Heinlein (rocketship Galileo?), and filmed with Heinlein's active cooperation. Does anybody out there know more about this? I find myself unable to include "Dune" in this class of multi-media presentations, perhaps because Herbert's sequels have demonstrated to my satisfaction that he is no longer a writer of science-fiction... -Kieran A. Carroll ...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Subject: Dr. Who (Tom Baker) Scarf "Recipe" Request Date: 01 Jan 85 09:28:49 EST (Tue) From: Marshall Rose Quite some time ago, someone posted instructions for knitting a scarf like the one Tom Baker wore as the Dr. I lost the instructions! Could someone please send me (and not the list) a copy? Thanks, /mtr ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 1985 21:45:06 PST Subject: Dr. Who on Videotape? From: Alan R. Katz Does anyone know where one can purchase videotapes of Dr. Who? The Tom Baker episodes have been shown here in LA, but I would like to see some of the other ones. How about tapes of the Prisoner?? Caution: I am looking for VHS american format tapes. I know Prisoner tapes are availible from the Six of One (fan club) but, they are in PAL format, which will not play on american sets. Alan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jan 85 0124-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #8 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner (2 msgs) & Eddings & Varley & Vinge (2 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Collector's Editions, Films - Star Trek IV, Television - V (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME Date: 2 Jan 85 13:06:03 GMT THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME by John Brunner Del Rey, 1983 (paperback 1984), $3.50. A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This book has been compared to such works as Stapledon's LAST AND FIRST MEN, in its description of the sweep of history on a planet beset by massive, frequent climatic changes. I would liken it more to something like Michener's HAWAII or THE SOURCE, because it covers, not the entire course of the species' history, but just the part from the earliest scientific glimmerings to the age of interplanetary and even interstellar travel. Brunner has concentrated on science as the central theme of this book-- or rather, the scientist, constantly battling public opinion based on ignorance and superstition. While his parallels to current-day earth are at times a little heavy-handed (cults that believe in spiritual communication with beings on other worlds, and the rationality of the "clean environmentalists" versus the short-sightedness of the "full speed ahead manufacturers"), he does give us a sense of a species constantly at war with a much more hostile environment than our own. Meteor storms, ice ages, and radiation poisoning work against them at every turn, yet with the help of science/technology, they survive each crisis to rise to greater heights. If some of Brunner's earlier works seemed a bit on the pessimistic side (in particular, THE SHEEP LOOK UP, a morbidly fascinating tale of technological disaster), he has recovered from that depression and is now gloriously optimistic. The species (never actually named) is like us in many ways, but unlike us in others (the revelation of some of the major differences is best left to the context of the book). They are never fully described--we know they have mantles, and they have pressurized tubules which keep them erect, but we never get a complete picture. This is because the book is told from their point of view, and no one writes a complete biological description of a human being in a novel told from a human point of view. Their society, or rather, societies are similar, yet subtly different. We feel close to them, but we never forget their alienness. There are seven sections, covering the history from early feudal states to interstellar travel. In each, we see scientists as the main characters. Oh, they may not think of themselves as such, but they are nonetheless. From the earliest sea-farer who sees a chance to gain a profit by trading the knowledge of one area for that of another, to the biologists who solve the sterility that may be the species' biggest challenge, to the scientists who build the spaceships, the characters are interested in knowledge. While most people are still believing in astrology, the scientists are mapping the stars, noting their changes, plotting the orbits of the planets--not to predict the future, but to better understand the universe and their place in it. The quibbles I have with the book are minor. Brunner cheats on his naming of alien creatures et al. There are entirely too many "sharqs" and "mollusqs" floating around (accidental pun there!). In fact, his solution for coming up with an alien term often seems to involve merely changing one letter of the English term to a 'q'. And his planetary system is entirely too close to our own: Sunbride is a thinly disguised Venus and Swiftyouth is an even more obvious Mars, with its seasonal changes that scientists in later chapters attribute to melting polar caps. There are the two gas giants, Steadyman and Stolidchurl. Even the events mirror our own--we see an incident where two characters who have discovered/invented lenses and the telescope hold a telescope up to Steadyman (I believe) and see satellites circling it which could not be seen with the naked eye. In the end this is what prevents THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME from being another LAST AND FIRST MEN--Stapledon didn't attempt to create alien names, but he did give us a sense of strangeness throughout his work--though the race was human, it evolved into something we couldn't quite understand. Brunner, in his attempt to emphasize the strangeness of his species, overdoes it on the terminology and it shows. Yet this is a minor irritation. Stapledon, it must be admitted, concentrated more on the species than on individuals; Brunner shows us individuals and how they interact with their time in history. THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME as a whole is a well-written, well- thought-out story, full of interesting characters, exciting events, and a justification of science that is just what we need in these days of anti- technological Luddites. Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Randy Buckland) Subject: Re: THE CRUCIBLE OF TIME Date: 3 Jan 85 17:58:47 GMT > And his planetary system is entirely too close to our own: > Sunbride is a thinly disguised Venus and Swiftyouth is an even > more obvious Mars, with its seasonal changes that scientists in > later chapters attribute to melting polar caps. There are the two > gas giants, Steadyman and Stolidchurl. Even the events mirror our > own--we see an incident where two characters who have > discovered/invented lenses and the telescope hold a telescope up > to Steadyman (I believe) and see satellites circling it which > could not be seen with the naked eye. I will admit that I have not read this book up front. (I have it on order) However, the above quibbles don't seem like problems to me. They seem like what I would expect to happen. There are theories of planitary development that would tend to indicate that a lot of systems should be a great deal like our own. Also, the development of the telescope and discovery of the moons of the gas giant should happen together. As is said somewhere (I believe it was Heinlien) When the time comes in history to Railroad, you Railroad. This can be loosely translated as when all the elements of a new discovery are available in a society. That discovery will occur. If Galileo did not invent the telescope and discover Jupiters moons, someone else in that time period would have. Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ Date: 3 January 1985, 19:17:27 CST From: U44767%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Edward R. Zawacki ) Subject: The Belgariad For those of you out there who are Fantasy lovers the Belgariad is a must. According to the 'About the author' section at the rear David Eddings went about writing this series of books to test out some literary techniques...well I for one hope that he just keeps on testing. There are five books in the series the first being 'Pawn of Prophecy'. Not only is the story VERY good but he manages to include his own particular brand of humor (actually he seems to manage to state the mundane in a unique way so that something commonplace suddenly seems hilarious.) As for the story...it is virtually flawless and I doubt that unless you read the books two or three times as I did that you'll be able to find ANYTHING wrong. The things that I have found are in no way significant to the story. The five books are (in order): 'Pawn of Prophecy', 'Queen of Sorcery', 'Magician's Gambit', 'Castle of Wizardry', and 'Enchanter's End Game'. Once again I hope you read them and enjoy them as much as I have. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 1985 21:41:39 PST Subject: Varley's Persistence of Vision From: Alan R. Katz The Science Fiction book club is selling Persistence of Vision by Varley for $2.50, on sale (bookclub hardback editions). Since it was mentioned that the current reissue of the paperback version lacks the great original cover and is missing a few pages from one of the stories, people may want to get it from the book club (if you are a member, or join). In case you are a member, but didn't get the mailing, the order number of the book is 34413. Alan ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 85 18:49:05 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V9 #227 From: Kevin "Vernor Vinge's TRUE NAMES is back in print as a trade paperback. I forget the publisher; such books are unwelcome in these offices." -- duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Lest anyone get a bad idea of Xerox and Science Fiction, we (in Palo Alto at Systems Development) have a Science Fiction library here in our building. I'll see that a copy of TRUE NAMES finds its way into the library. I've been waiting for the publication after reading favorable reviews from SF-LOVERS. ~Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jan 85 17:32 PST From: Tom Perrine Subject: True Names by V. Vinge I first read True Names several years ago in the Binary Star #5 edition. I recently read it again. Vinge has an *excellent* grasp of where computer technology is taking us, and the possible effects on society. For example, he mentions hackers (before the media blitz), "worldnet", and most astonishingly, "interactive novels," which only became available recently (Fahrenheit 451 and HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy). His grasp of comouter technology is not surprising, considering that he is a professor of computer science. FORTH hackers may recall an article he wrote about teaching FORTH in "FORTH dimensions." "True Names" *should* have been out by now, from Bluejay books, but due to non-computer-error, it isn't. It *WILL* be illustrated and will have an afterword by Dr. Marvin Minsky. I am told that a sequel to "The Peace War" is in the works. I'm ready to buy a copy. Tom Perrine Logicon - OSD {tom\@logicon} ------------------------------ From: rna!dan@topaz Subject: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ? Date: 4 Jan 85 00:13:00 GMT Have others read the Zelazny novels about the character Dilvish ? Any comments ? I enjoyed them quite a bit. I first read "The Changing Land" but then picked up the other one (I forget its title). This seconds takes place before "The Changing Land" but was apparently published after it. Anyone know the story behind this curiousity ? Any other novels coming on Dilvish ? Dan ------------------------------ From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ? Date: 5 Jan 85 00:44:12 GMT Do you mean 'Dilvish the Damned'? This was billed as a collection of short stories, I think, though they do sort of tie together. The stories concern Dilvish's search for Jelerak, and one tells why Jelerak damned Dilvish in the first place. [Dilvish interrupted him when he was about to perform a human sacrifice for some 'black' reason.] It doesn't say much about how Dilvish got out of hell, though. If there are other Dilvish stories, I'd like to know about them. -Dragon UUCP: ...seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 85 10:10:51 EST From: Catherine Cunningham Subject: collectors editions The discussions on the relative merits of collectors/limited editions has inspired me to start a collection of my own. However, I know almost nothing on how to begin, and I'd appreciate any info. I'm also interested in getting a first edition copy of "Dune", anyone know approximately how rare (and expensive) this will be, and where to start looking? Thanks, Cathy Cunningham (ccunning@bbncct.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 3 Jan 85 23:48:38-EST From: Thomas Y. Galloway Subject: STIV/Varley During the meet-the-pros party at LACon, I talked to John Varley for a few minutes. He mentioned that he had been asked to write Star Trek IV, but had declined. Its really too bad; Varley's interpretation of the ST universe would have been very interesting. tyg ------------------------------ From: tekred!alexl@topaz (Alexander R. Lopez) Subject: Any "V" fans out there.......? Date: 1 Jan 85 17:22:48 GMT How do you like the way the plot with the "star child" is going? From the miniseries I thought that it would be a hack, but so far they've kept it toned down. I hope they keep her powers undefined for awhile. The episode dealing with the clone seemed short but better that then carrying it on and on...... Now we know the real origins of System V and Dec V..... joan (alex's wife) ------------------------------ From: allegra!don@topaz (D. Mitchell) Subject: V and other SF on TV Date: 4 Jan 85 11:01:18 GMT I watch "V" too, but I think it's pretty poor. It's basically a soap opera. Like a lot of American TV, it preaches too much. Star Trek suffered from that too, but at least it was produced by people who had a love of science fiction. If you remember what was going on in the late 60's, it is surprising how propagandistic is was. A lot of episodes put down the youth culture of that time and the women's movement. There was even one horrible show that ended with Kirk reading the US constitution to a room full of savages after they had finally killed the last commie on their planet. Complete with the stars and stripes waving in the background! "Street Hawk" looks bad. It stars Rex Smith, a beautiful "teen idol" that the big record companies grew in a nutrient vat somewhere. I don't think he has ever been popular, but he is always being promoted by Big Money. To tell you the truth, the only TV Sci-Fi series I enjoy is Dr. Who. But, that is another newsgroup. Ciao. ------------------------------ From: houxm!gregbo@topaz (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: Any "V" fans out there.......? Date: 4 Jan 85 19:59:48 GMT > From: alexl@tekred.UUCP (Alexander R. Lopez) > How do you like the way the plot with the "star child" is going? Not bad. As long as they keep off her powers, and stick to the triangle ro- mance between herself, her mother and Kyle I think it's ok. > From the miniseries I thought that it would be a hack, but so far > they've kept it toned down. I hope they keep her powers undefined > for awhile. The episode dealing with the clone seemed short but > better that then carrying it on and on...... So do I. I was wondering, given that the show doesn't really have high ratings, but does not have awful ratings either, do you think they'll go for more than one season? At first I doubted it but now I think they'll last two seasons. Maybe the show will take off like Hill Street did. Baby tie your hair back in a long white bow ... Meet me in the field, behind the dynamo ... Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jan 85 0145-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #9 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 9 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL 2010 ISSUE - PART 3 ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: patcl@tekecs.UUCP (Pat Clancy) Subject: Re: Re: 2010 letdown Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 22:42:07 MST >I'm sure they had a big budget for this movie, but it would >probably have to be a lot bigger in order to make it look as though >people were moving in zero g... Maybe we'll just have to live with >things like that for awhile longer until some special effects >genius invents artificial gravity. Actually, it was done quite well in 2001 (shuttle to space station) within a presumably reasonable budget. Pat Clancy, Tektronix {ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,hplabs}!tektronix!tekecs!patcl ------------------------------ From: js2j@mhuxt.UUCP (sonntag) Subject: two thousand and ten mistakes Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 14:14:31 MST So many people have already posted articles pointing out glaring mistakes and inconsistancies that I hesitate to add to the list. But what the heck. Let's see. Someone mentioned the burning shield during the 'air braking' maneuver. Did you notice that the shield seemed to be four gas-filled bags? Did you wonder how they stood all of that pressure, ablation, heat, etc. without being destroyed during the first 2 seconds of atmospheric entry? When they were told to leave, did you wonder why nobody asked how far away they had to be in 2 days? It seems as though minimal fuel expenditure would have gotten them much further away in two days than ALL of the fuel in one ship did in ten minutes. Did you notice that HAL's speech synthesizer seemed to require almost his full memory? Current technology would allow speech synthesis systems which would work much easier. And the piggyback ride with the two ships! The center of mass was obviously out of the line of thrust. How could it thrust in a straight line? And if the new sun REALLY looked that bright from Earth, I'm sure the inhabitants of all coastal cities wouldn't be very pleased with the long term effects of the 'gift'. And the guys who were smart enough to make the monoliths and everything were stupid enough to think that the addition of a sun to our system would ensure that 'it would never again be dark on Earth'. Wrong! During one part of the year, it would never be dark. But, I did kind of like the idea of turning a gas giant into a sun. I guess this could be done if the monoliths were compressing the gases into neutronium or something, effectively shrinking Jupiter until it's gravitational field was strong enough to compress and heat and ignite the atmosphere. You'd have to be able to generate awfully strong force fields to do the trick, though. All in all, though, it was entertaining enough to be worth my $2.50. Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j ------------------------------ From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Re: 2010 letdown (semi-SPOILER) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 12:30:32 MST >I'm sure they had a big budget for this movie, but it would >probably have to be a lot bigger in order to make it look as though >people were moving in zero g. But if they had enough money, they >could have moved the whold production into space to avoid this >inexcusable sloppiness. They could also try shooting very short >sequences in some kind of free-fall elevator (like at some >amusement parks). > These are the only ways offhand I can think of to make it look >as though people are moving in zero g. Both of them sound >ridiculously expensive. > Maybe we'll just have to live with things like that for awhile >longer until some special effects genius invents artificial >gravity. Disagree. If you look at the free-fall scenes in 2001, you will see that, while the simulation isn't *perfect*, it is done far better than in 2010. In 2001, when the people are supposed to be walking in free-fall on velcro, they move *slowly* (keeping momentum down), and use handholds at every opportunity. In 2010, however, walking in free fall with sticky soles is made to look exactly like walking in a 1-G environment. Hyams could have and should have done better. Incidentally, I liked 2010. It was not a classic, and had more technical errors than I can completely excuse, but I thought it a good, straight SF story that was treated with respect. I'd expected less, and was surprised by the quality. 2010 is not in the same league as 2001, but that's true of the books, as well. 2010 is among the weakest of Clarke's recent novels, in my opinion. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry SOURCE: ST7891 ------------------------------ From: duntemann.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Date: 20 Dec 84 8:28:20 EST Subject: Space Dust The clinging dust on Discovery bothered me not at all. Wipe your finger across your CRT screen--gravity has nothing to do with the reason that ukky grey stuff sticks to the glass. Discovery was in orbit around IO, which is rotten with volcanoes squirting sulphur and other particulates around, some of which could well leave the moon at escape velocity and assume a separate orbit. IO exists in a region of Jupiter space rich in charged particles and radiation--I wouldn't be surprised if Discovery could pick up a whale of a static charge in 9 years. I was more disturbed that EVAs could be done at all, based on what I've read and heard about that region of space. (Some of you may remember--was it Dr. Forward-- explaining IO as "the most dangerous place in the universe" at a panel at the last Worldcon.) Extremely high radiation level there. Nice touch--the dust was even the right color! --Jeff Duntemann (PS: Excuse the capitalization on IO--it's hard enough suppressing the slash!) ------------------------------ From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP Subject: New, BIG 2010 plot error! Date: Fri, 21 Dec 84 22:17:08 MST I just saw 2010 tonite, having read the book this summer, and found a MAJOR plot error near the end which nobody's mentioned yet. When the Russians and Floyd concur about getting out of there early, the questions come up (and is put to Chandra) whether HAL will go along with a flight plan that is suicidal for him/her/it. Both the book and film cover this. However, in the movie they decide to play it safe and LIE to HAL; only at the last moment does Chandra give it to HAL straight. The hooker: The lie consists mostly of denying the danger of hanging around Jupiter. HAL keeps asking (in the movie) "Why leave and miss this great phenomenon (growing black spot) unless there is danger here?" Chandra, under orders, keeps lying to HAL about this. But... it was HAL who received and passed on the message from the erstwhile D. Bowman in the first place! HAL was the first to know of the imminent danger! So how come these dumb humans could lie to HAL? This is ridiculous. If I recall right, the book avoids this inconsistency: the crew never consider lying to HAL, but merely question his reaction to kamikaze missions (so much for Japanese 5th-generation computers). Other than this, I thought the film was beautiful, exciting, well made, and quite true to the spirit of the book with one major exception, but that's another posting. mike k ------------------------------ From: knudsen@ihnss.UUCP Subject: 2010--major plot omission (SPOILER) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 84 22:31:25 MST The ending of the movie 2010 is fine, and the monolith scene is lovely. But a major point is left out from the book! The aliens (monolith makers, not Europa greenies) tell Bowman that someday, after the Europans mature as an intelligent race, that the solar system will be only big enuf for one race, and at that time the Aliens will choose between them... which one lives, and which one is snuffed out (as was the life on Jupiter, depicted in the book). In other words, THE LAST JUDGMENT. SHape up, Humans, or SHIP OUT! Certainly calling off the war with the Russians is a step in the right direction (the alternative might spare the Aliens the trouble of exterminating us), but the book's original message was far more cosmic, far-reaching, and unsettling! It left the story open-ended, and you really wondered what would become of our race. The movie says that hey, we've made up with the Reds, so Earth has nothing to worry about any more. Lets you walk out smiling, but this watering down puts the movie's philosophical power below the novel's, and hence below 2001, whose greatest virtue was its open-endedness. mike k PS: As I stated in an earlier posting, I really liked the film and the book. I'd recommend this movie highly and am looking forward to the next viewing. But first, on to Arrakis... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 84 11:53:55 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: 2010 glitch Did anyone notice this one? In the "Mission Report" at the beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in 1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho monolith". Makes you wonder why, since those two places are a third of the Moon's diameter apart... If they had to do this silly thing, they could have at least said it was dug up in Mare Crisium and called the Tycho monolith, since that's where the tetrahedron in "The Sentinel" was found. Oh well. - Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 85 17:38 EST From: TMPLee@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: 6030 Short comment. Just finished my third (6030=3*?) encounter (no pun intended) with 2010. The first two were mistakes. First was reading the book before seeing the movie; I think that spoiled it, although I would have liked the movie to have had more about what was happening on Europa. Second mistake was seeing it in a theatre with lousy projection equipment and lousy sound. (Was stuck in a hotel out in Reston and just down the arcade was a theatre ....) The third time went to a 70mm / Dolby (6 speakers) theatre and thought the movie came across quite well -- and that was just after having looked at the tape of 2001. Sure the politics was too strong and SAL/HAL/Chandra a bit much, but it was enjoyable and the impact of the various minor crises was definitely heightened by seeing it in a place with the right equipment. Ted ------------------------------ Date: 3 January 1985 23:44-EST From: TYG@MIT-OZ @ MIT-MC HAL and SAL to the contrary, computer technology in 2010 seems to have gone backwards about 25 years. While Floyd had a Dynabook in 2001, in 2010, he now is using a Apple IIc on the beach. Credit to Apple is given at the end of the film. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 3 Jan 85 23:50:54-EST From: Thomas Y. Galloway Subject: 2010: Jihad in 2005? Did anyone else notice that computer technology seemed to revert about 25 years between 2001 and 2010? While Floyd used a Dynabook in 2001 in the shuttle, in 2010, he's using a vanilla Apple IIc on the beach. Maybe the Butlerian Jihad happened? ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: THE ODYSSEY FILE Date: 2 Jan 85 13:06:15 GMT THE ODYSSEY FILE by Arthur C. Clarke & Peter Hyams Del Rey, 1984, $395. A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Just as it is impossible to think of 2010 without being reminded of 2001, so it is impossible to review THE ODYSSEY FILE without referring to Jerome Agel's THE MAKING OF KUBRICK'S 2001. Agel's book (published in 1970 by Signet and, for all I know, out of print now, though renewed interest may bring it back) had 367 pages (including a 96-page photo insert), lots of diagrams, reviews from the media (both good and bad), and even an excerpt from the MAD magazine parody of 2001. It cost $1.50. Clarke and Hyam's book is 148 pages (including a 16 page color photo insert) of large type, no diagrams, and no reviews--but you do get an appendix of how to use MITE on the Kaypro computer. In fact, a lot of what you get is little more than an ad for (or to be charitable, let's say a paean to) the Kaypro. Interspersed with Hyams's and Clarke's comments on the film are such gems as "I'm way ahead of you on Son of Hal: that's one reason I'm instantly WordStarring and printing out our immortal prose." Now it's true that THE ODYSSEY FILE does not pretend to be what THE MAKING OF 2001 was. THE ODYSSEY FILE is described on its cover as "the unique computer correspondence between the men who made it happen" and that's what it is. The problem is that reading someone else's unedited mail files is b-o-r-i-n-g. There is a lot of space wasted on trivialities (like Clarke telling Hyams that a TV show that he was in will be on Channel 4 in the UK). There are a lot of cryptic comments (referring to page and line numbers of the script). There *are* some interesting items, but the reader/viewer who plunks down $3.95 expecting an in-depth look at the making of 2010 is going to be very disappointed. Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Jan 85 0204-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #10 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jan 85 0204-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #10 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL DUNE ISSUE - PART 3 ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "DUNE". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP Subject: "dune" Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 22:34:38 MST I am finding out the hard way just how difficult it is to work at 300 baud with a dumb terminal which only has 40 columns. Please forgive a certain lack of polish. "Dune" simultaneously plays to David Lynch's weaknesses and strengths. Both are plainly evident from his previous films, and even from his background, but "Dune" displays them as never before. Lynch was an artist before he took up film, and visuals have always been his greatest strength, as anyone who saw "Eraserhead" can attest. Viewers of that film can also vouch for Lynch's ability to establish moods. In "The Elephant Man", Lynch was able to fit these talents within a Hollywood framework without major compromise. No one, including me, noticed that he had one fatal weakness, a weakness not likely to show up in films like "Eraserhead" or "The Elephant Man". David Lynch is not a storyteller. His gifts are almost purely visual, and even within the sphere of the visual they do not partake of the narrative impulse. Before "Dune", one might have thought that Lynch simply wasn't very interested in story, but that he might have been able to handle it when necessary. "Dune" illustrates that this is not the case. "Dune" was an impossible assignment to begin with. Frank Herbert's novel is over five hundred pages long, crammed with plot, characters, and atmosphere. There are some splendid visual opportunities, but there is just too much stuff to fit into a conventional Hollywood movie, and the expense required to bring off the story precluded anything but a major hollywood film. In fact, the visual possibilities seemed to be what drew filmm akers to "Dune". Several of those who previously made serious efforts to get a film made included Jadorewsky (almost certainly misspelled in the absence of my film reference books; he directed "El Topo") and Ridley Scott. Not surprisingly, none of those involved were especially strong as storytellers; they were all visualists. "Dune" defeats Lynch utterly at the story level. Lynch's screenplay visits all of the major incidents in the first half of the book, and most of those in the second, but the overall feeling is like nothing so much as one of those "ten day, twelve countries" tours of Europe. It all flies by too fast, losing all nuances in the process. Lynch includes the major plot elements, but leaves out all that made "Dune" a fascinating book: the ecology of the planet, the historical background of the empire, the culture of the Fremen (natives of the planet Dune, for the uninitiated out there), motivations of the characters, and the philosophical point of the whole thing. Some elements which Lynch chose to add to the story run from irrelevant to harmful, and are at best a waste of time. Welcome to the Reader's Digest condensed version of "Dune". I will leave out the usual plot summary, as the plot of "DUNE" is extremely complicated. anything I said would either spoil or confuse the newcomers, and would bore those familiar with the novel. suffice it to say that there are many twists and turns which David Lynch tries to navigate with almost every hoary story device known to film makers, including narration, voice overs of people thinking (a particularly annoying device in this film which Lynch beats into the ground ), obvious expository dialog, and that science fiction chestnut, the book that tells you all about your brand new planet. these devices are very poorly integrated. Along with a byzantine plot comes a large and varied cast of characters. Lynch has unwisely chosen to include almost all of them in the film version, even if it means giving them only one or two meaningless scenes and then dropping them. He seems to believe, rather naively, that if he puts well known actors in these roles, we will understand that they are important characters, even though they have nothing to do in the film. In fact, the cast as a whole has so little to do in this film that it is almost meaningless to speak of the quality of their performances. No one has the time or scenes to distinguish themselves, except for newcomer kyle mckechnie (definitely misspelled, probably only an approximation of his last name). He, alas, is not up to the opportunity, and is little more than handsome in the role of Paul. Jurgen Prochnow has some impact as Duke Leto and Sting and Kenneth McMillain are ok as the principle villains. All of the other actors are so much set decoration. And with that, on to happier topics, such as the set decora- tion. Lynch has produced a visually stunning film. The sets and costumes are bizarre and brilliant. The effects, by a team including Kit West ("raiders of the lost ark"), Carlo Rambaldi (the creator of e. t.) and Al- bert Whitlock, matte painter extraordinaire, are first rate. Many of them are even new. What more could one ask from special effects? Well, perhaps a better integration into the story. The only effects that can be considered a failure are the scenes of people riding sandworms. The worms themselves are fine, but it looks like the shots of people on them didn't work out, so the effects team fell back on the old trick of implying the effect rather than showing it. David Lynch has imagined a weird universe that is an awful lot of fun to look at. This would have been sufficient if he were making the Dune calendar, but it is insufficient for a film. So the bottom line is looks 10, story 3. The film would have been better off the other way around, but that would have been nearly impossible, given the problems "Dune" presents to film makers. Unlike most bad science fiction movies, "Dune" is not a failure due to slavish imitation, lack of imagination, or indifference. The makers of "dune" obviously cared, came up with something original, and failed. Too bad, but how many of you who are familiar with the book are honestly surprised? Regrettably, I can't recommend "Dune" unless you are willing to settle for visual impact alone, which few of us are. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: jab@uokvax.UUCP Subject: Dune: read the book FIRST Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 23:15:00 MST I am the kind of person who puts off a book that everyone recommends because, well, everyone recommends it. A good example of this is that I read "Lord of the Rings" last Spring, because before then I was always surrounded by people who were such Tolkein fans that they tried to speak Elvish. Same thing for "Time Enough for Love" and "Foundation". (All fine books, ditch the fanatics somewhere and read the books.) I promised myself that I "would read 'Dune' before seeing the movie." It wasn't because I had heard that the movie was "better/worse than the book," but that it was "different." ***** DO IT: READ 'DUNE' BEFORE SEEING THE MOVIE. ***** Why? Because, like the movie or not, you'll understand almost none of it without knowing the background of the book. Period. (The movie lacks any sense of suspense anyhow, so it's not like the book will spoil the movie. My $4.50 was spent, in my opinion, to go see the worms.) Jeff Bowles Lisle, IL ------------------------------ From: rh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Randy Haskins) Subject: and now, someone who hasn't read Dune... Date: Tue, 18 Dec 84 23:52:38 MST I thoroughly enjoyed the movie. Of course, I was able to get a few explanations from my friend who had read the book, but for the most part, I just sat and enjoyed. In fact, I think I might even read the book now, having previously been put off by the fact that I knew people who had tried to read it and failed. I thought that the most of the special effects were pretty good, also. I don't agree that the ending didn't convey awesome power. I thought that Paul causing Feyd to explode was a particularly nice touch. As far as entertainment value, I'd put it slightly above 2010, probably a little above Starman (Starman was touching, but I was probably in the mood for something flashy when I saw it). I'll probably go see it again after I've read the book. Randwulf (Randy Haskins); Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh ------------------------------ From: adolph@ssc-vax.UUCP (Mark Adolph) Subject: The Dune controversey' Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 18:21:27 MST An interesting display of the split opinion on this movie: the day Dune opened, USA Today published a review by its chief movie critic which gave the film 1.5/4 stars. Alongside it, they published a review by Harlan Ellison, who loved the movie. I think I'll go see for myself before I subscribe to the bandwagonism of either camp (although, you guys were right about Supergirl...) -- Mark A. ...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!adolph "Computers are like preppies: they just boil around in their own way and you have to do things their way or they blow you off." "Everything that was different was a different thing..." ------------------------------ From: moriarty@fluke.UUCP (Jeff Meyer) Subject: DUNE Ad note Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 09:10:49 MST Has anyone else noticed that the ads for DUNE on tv have the standard generic voice-over done with some type of distortion effect? Well, when I saw the movie yesterday, Lynch uses the SAME distortion effect to indicate the use of the Bene Gessirt (sp?) Voice! Gee, no *wonder* I felt compelled to go see the movie... "These aren't the droids you're looking for..." Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ From: reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP Subject: "Dune" trivia Date: Wed, 19 Dec 84 23:27:12 MST Did anyone else notice David Lynch's cameo in "Dune"? He played the commander of the spice harvester that got eaten by a sandworm. Even under a bunch of sweat and grime, he still looked like a worthy successor to Mickey Rooney in the role of Andy Hardy. How can someone so wholesome and, let's face it, dopey-looking have such weird ideas floating around in his head? Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jan 1985 10:12:43 PST Subject: DUNE & Harlan Ellison From: Martin S. Feather A newspaper ad for the DUNE movie contained the following quote: "'DUNE' is the 'Gone With the Wind' and 'Birth of a Nation' of science-fiction films...opening into visual and intellectual realms the cinema has never before revealed." - Harlan Ellison, USA Today Hmmm. M. Feather ------------------------------ Date: Fri 4 Jan 85 17:27:44-PST From: Bob Larson Subject: Dune the movie VS. DOON I think DOON followed the book DUNE better than the movie did. The only way to have a comprehensable 3 or 4 hour Dune movie would be to reduce the number of characters... but then again, we wouldn't realy have Dune anymore. ------------------------------ From: cadre!geb@topaz Subject: Re: Dune Date: 31 Dec 84 15:11:59 GMT Indeed, the movie of Dune was a joke. Dino de Laurentis strikes out again. I wasn't as disappointed, since I hadn't expected much, given the pre-release hype and all the books, etc. release before the film, to try to make some money before everyone found out how badly it stank. Frank Herbert wasn't turning in his grave, since he's still alive and most of the books he turns out now are of the same ilk as the movie. I guess he's the type of author who only really has one good book in him. It is extremely difficult to make a great movie out of a great book. Look at Ralph Bakshi's abortion with Lord of the Rings. But really, how could you make a movie out of LotR or Dune unless the movie ran 20 hours in the case of Dune and maybe 100 hours in the case of LotR. Who would finance it? What theaters would book it? The charm is tied up with all the rich detail, that can't be shown in a movie. The detail is not just in the sets. Something like Star Wars succeeds because it was conceived as a movie (or series) and tailored accordingly, but lacks the depth of meaning of LotR, or even Dune (which though good, shouldn't really be considered in the same galaxy with Tolkein, or even Gene Wolfe). ------------------------------ From: dartvax!holly@topaz (Holly Cabell) Subject: Re: Dune Date: 3 Jan 85 13:20:10 GMT Speaking of Dune.... Of all the people I have talked to, it seems that only those who saw the movie before reading the book (myself included) thought it was a good movie. However, immediately after seeing the movie, I read the book, and realized how bad the movie was compared to the book. Rhetorical question--How did Herbert allow them to make such a mess out of what is really an excellent book? Ken Varnum ------------------------------ From: mako!jans@topaz (Jan Steinman) Subject: Re: Dune Date: 3 Jan 85 17:17:40 GMT geb@cadre.UUCP writes: >Frank Herbert wasn't turning in his grave, since... most of the >books he turns out now are of the same ilk as the movie. I guess >he's the type of author who only really has one good book in him. The first sentence, I might not argue, but before making a statement like the second, try reviewing some of his earlier works, such as "The Green Brain", etc. Jan Steinman Box 1000, MS 61-161 (w)503/685-2843 tektronix!tekecs!jans Wilsonville, OR 97070 (h)503/657-7703 ------------------------------ From: utai!indra@topaz (Indra Laksono) Subject: Re: Dune Date: 30 Dec 84 04:22:42 GMT Speaking of DUNE. I wonder how many people liked the movie? In my humble, naive opinion, to say that it didn't do the book justice may be the understatement of the Millenium. Let's just say that if Herbert was dead, we just might hear subterranean vibrations (like turning). In fact, when the movie started, everybody clapped REAL LOUD. But the giggling started 1 minute into the movie when Princess Irulan said all those profound things. The thing that really cracked everybody up was Paul repeating over and over : "Dune, Desert planet... Spice, sandworm". It was only at the end, when Paul Muad'ib captured the emperor, etc. that we really realize how much the audience enjoyed the movie (REALLY). Paul said that his battle was fought in the name of Justice. Then, Feyd Rautha (Sting) said,"Justice" (say it with sarcasm). Almost everyone clapped. I almost did too. It was the most disappointing night in my life. (Maybe my hopes were too high.) [I understand professor chandra, thank you for telling me... will I dream?] {allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo}!utcsrgv!utai!indra ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Jan 85 1244-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #11 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jan 85 1244-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #11 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 8 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 11 Today's Topics: Books - Eddings & Sucharitkul, Films - 2010 (2 msgs), Television - Starlost (4 msgs) & V ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jan 85 07:33 PST From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #8 I agree with Edward Zawacki's endorsement of The Belgariad. The story is good, the characters are good, the milleux is good etc. The humor is VERY good! I have but two requests of Eddings for the future: 1) I wish he would cut down on the blushing! It seemed to me that every time you turn around, someone is blushing. 2) I would like to know what the Philosophical Ideas are that this tetrology (?) is trying to develop. Anybody have any idea? >>Dave ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jan 85 11:39:33 PST (Monday) From: LFeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Faces of Science Fiction; Somtow Sucharitkul Wondering about an author like Sucharitkul who you haven't been able to see at any conventions? (tho' he has been at a few) Take a look Blue Jay Books new "The Faces of Science Fiction". This features photos of a large number of science fiction and fantasy authors, along with a few brief comments about or by each. Most of the photos are in their home or other working area. Many great authors who started in the 50's and 60's are there, as well as a large number of newer authors. I was continually startled to see many of my favorites looking nothing like I expected. Somtow Sucharitkul is shown, and a comment mentions that he spends equal time on music and on science fiction. I believe I've heard one work of his long ago, which I would call "contemporay classical", with a stong meditative Zen influence. If you know more about his music, please let us know. Lawrence ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following 2 messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Subject: 2010 From: CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (S. C. Colbath) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 1985 08:57 EST To begin with, I must say that I am a 2010 fan, as well as a 2001 fan. I believe that 2010 was an excellent movie, well deserving of more recognition, and is easily the best Christmas-release movie (in my opinion). I believe it was as true to the book as can be expected these days, and was produced well, considering the writer was in Sri Lanka and only available for communication via computer. Therefore, ***FLAME ON!*** >The marshmallow analogy should perhaps have included an >explanation. The thing that ruined it for me was the trail of >smoke left by the Leonov's passage through Jupiter atmosphere. >Smoke is particulate matter which results from a chemical >combustion process; ie., something's burning up. The only thing >that could have been burning in this case was the balloon, but it >seemed to (and had to) survive intact. Certainly the heating of >the hydrogen/helium atmosphere would not have produced smoke. The >space shuttle doesn't produce a smoke trail when it reenters, even >in an oxygen atmosphere. Therefore, the reason the smoke trail is >there is that someone in the special effects dept. thought it would >look more dramatic that way, and to hell with reality. People who want truth in science should be able to realize it when they see it. "Smoke" is an Earthly concept, but if we use the definition here, there should be no problem. The Leonov is passing through an atmosphere of methane, hydrogen, and helium, and is producing a LOT of friction. This would cause heat to be created, chemical bonds to be created and broken, ionization of compounds, a lot of light, and probably "smoke". No, the Space Shuttle doesn't leave a "smoke" trail on re-entry, but our atmosphere is composed of nitrogen and oxygen, and they aren't too likely to react with each other. It does leave one hell of a vapor trail on launch, tho. Re: The pen and pencil sequence. This is one of the few major physics bugs I could notice in the movie. The only way I could see this as happening is if the pen and pencil were at the axis of rotation of the Leonov bridge. Here there would be no artificial "gravity", but if this is true there wouldn't be very much two feet away where Floyd & the Russian captain are standing. >Well, here's my MAJOR GRIPE. I could go on forever about how Hyams >trys to turn this into a audience-manipulation-emotion movie, like >INDIANA JONES AND THE TEMPLE OF WHOOPEE, with the energy jumping >out of the hole in Europa (Jaws music should have been inserted), >and the funny things everyone says, as if Hyams is saying, "This is >probably too much for you to comprehend... I'll lower it all to >your level." Huh. It's not that it isn't entertaining; it's just >that I AM SICK AND TIRED OF "ENTERTAINING" SCIENCE FICTION! How >about something with some vision and wonder? You may be, but I certainly am not. I do not spend 4 big ones to go to a movie to be preached to; I go to a movie to have a good time and be entertained. If the movie is able to do this at the same time as having "vision and wonder" (i.e. 2001), then more power to it. Note that I do not advocate sacrificing good taste, intelligence, or any other human qualities for "entertainment", but I believe that 2010 does more than admirably. It creates a sense of mystery and intrigue about the universe, helps to avert a sense of hopelessness about life on Earth, and despite the slightly sappy ending, left me with a warm feeling in my heart at the end. The only reason the ending seemed lacking to me is that it is rather hard to translate a book that has a lot of narration from the first-person and omniscient point of view into a movie that people will enjoy. Re: The space suits, pods, and helmets. I agree that there may be some problem here. However, it all depends on what you are basing your judgement on, and what point of view you have. The BOOK 2001 is *NOT* the same as the MOVIE 2001. This is important. I re-read the book after seeing 2010, and found some fascinating differences. If I read correctly, the planet the Discovery is going to is Saturn, not Jupiter, and the moon is Japetus, not Europa. When Dave Bowman returned to the Discovery, he piloted the pod into the docking bay manually, not by risking explosive decompression via the airlock. This is all very interesting, since the book 2001 supposedly came out at the same time or just after the movie. Re: Gravity. Sigh. This is a tough one. I believe Hyams did his best to be true to physics and make everything plausible. The Discovery was rotating in orbit, due to the law of conservation of angular momentum (although it did stop a little abruptly). The astronauts did get heavier as they got nearer the rotating end. However, as to people floating in the non-gravitized part of the ship: I believe there comes a point where movie-goers, no matter how much they may not want to, must take something for granted. There may be many good special-effects studios around today, but I have not seen one yet which can "fly" a person with reliability. The whole series of "Superman" movies left a lot to be desired, and if they were to try to fly everyone in every compartment of the ships, the whole film would have been more awkward to make and would probably have looked highly silly. In my opinion, this did not detract from the film, and if I remember correctly, the astronauts did not float in the pod bay in 2001 either. ***FLAME OFF*** All in all, I must say with conviction that 2010 is the best film that I have seen this year. Overall, the effects were good, the acting was excellent, and it left me feeling like I got my 4$ worth, easily. One other thing. Does anyone know what that small thing was that flew out of the airlock when it was opened? I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out if it had any significance in 2001. Sean C. Colbath CPE07401@MAINE.BITNET "Dave, why don't you take a stress pill and lie down.." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 85 11:01 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: 2010 glitch >Did anyone notice this one? In the "Mission Report" at the >beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in >1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho >monolith". I seem to remember that the Monolith was originally found at Clavius and called something like the Clavius Anomaly. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (This is the movie 2001 that I'm refering to). Brett Slocum Slocum @ HI-MULTICS (arpa-net) ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum (uucp) ------------------------------ Date: 02 Jan 85 22:17:01 PST (Wed) Subject: Re: "The Starlost" TV series From: Alastair Milne >>otherwise very well done TV series called "The Starlost"... > > I remember this as an all-around stinker, although it has been a > while. Does anyone else remember this at all? And didn't Ben > Bova or someone write a book that was a takeoff on the production > of this? > > Mark The StarLost was a CTV series (Canadian TeleVision, for those who know less about Canada than they should), which tried to compete with American releases of the time, to try to keep Canadian audiences watching Canadian television, and stem the cultural invasion. Unfortunately, like Battlestar Galactica, it had a possibly powerful premise never fully realised. Compared with Lost in Space, it was pretty good. Compared with almost anything else, it wasn't (although Star Trek could have learned something from the effects for its interiors). The idea was basically that a ship was launched with the remnants of humanity, to try to preserve the species. However, the descendants of the first generation (a few generations later, as I recall) had lost the knowledge of their purpose and destination (if any), and were highly ignorant even of the ship itself, knowing little more than needed for day to day survival. Further, there were pockets or groups like tribes isolated in various places (it was a *big* ship), with the usual fear of meetings. Finally, not all the occupants were human. Though I can't remember how they got there, there were various animal forms, Terran and non-Terran. A first-rate sf-writer could do a lot with this, but as I remember (it has been quite a few years now, and American networks almost *never* import Canadian shows) they never did. I had actually forgotten all about it until I saw this message. Anyway, Dr. Who is much more fun !! Alastair ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 3 January 1985, 07:29-PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: The Starlost >>otherwise very well done TV series called "The Starlost"... > > I remember this as an all-around stinker, although it has been a > while. Does anyone else remember this at all? And didn't Ben > Bova or someone write a book that was a takeoff on the production > of this? Yeah, it came from a pilot that Harlan Ellison developed. As Ellison told the story, NBC took the original script and found a Canadian studio to do the program, primarily because they could do the series VERY cheaply. It came out around 1973 and was the most incredible piece of crap television had yet produced. Ellison, in a last desperate attempt to save some aspect of the series, got Ben Bova to come on board as science advisor, but by then it was too late. Ellison thought so little of the program that he insisted that they use his pseudonym on the credits. (Whenever someone botches one of his attempts at television writing, Cordwainer Bird gets the screen credit.) Ellison told the story in an introduction to Phoenix Without Ashes, a novelization of the pilot. I don't recall the author's name, but it wasn't Ellison. Ben Bova fictionalized the whole sordid story in a book called The Starcrossed, which was reprinted a few months ago. ------------------------------ Date: 3 January 1985, 19:35:36 CST From: U44767%UICVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Edward R. Zawacki) Subject: Re: "Starlost TV series" I remember (slightly) the Starlost TV series...as I recall it was about a small group of people aboard a starship that was off course. The ship had been in flight so long that nobody even realized they were on a ship except for these few people. The ship had a whole mess of bubble-like 'worlds' and the people in each 'world' did not know of the existence of the others. In any case I believe that the show was about this group of people and they were trying to find the control room so that they could fix the course of the ship. All in all, the series wasn't that bad but as with all TV science fiction it didn't last. ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jan 85 13:51:11 PST (Thu) To: Purtill@mit-multics Subject: Re: "The Starlost" TV series From: Jim Hester Starlost was just a little better than Lost in Space (which I was young enough to enjoy at the time, and don't mind admitting it). The plots were only slightly more realistic, and the main characters were much more real, but abnormally naive. Lost in space at least had it's variety of odd aliens coming from a large universe; Starlost had an equally bizarre variety co-existing on the same ship, and most of them seemed to think they were in charge! Harlan Ellison's original teleplay for the series won a Writers Guild award for the Most Outstanding Teleplay of the year. He was pissed off by what the TV yokels did with it. In a twenty page introduction to the book, titled "Somehow I don't think we're in Kansas, Toto", he describes in graphic terms how he spent six months creating the teleplay and how the "inept, the untalented, the venal, and the corrupt" turned it into "a veritable Mt. Everest of cow flop". He lays partial blame on the fact that internal politics finally ended up with the scripts being written in Canada, where the they have virtually no experience with writing episodic drama or SF (except two writers, but they were not involved with this project). The book "Phoenix Without Ashes" by Edward Bryant and Ellison claims to be based on the teleplay, but I couldn't distinguish it (in terms of quality) from the series. The only difference was that the book ended when the main characters first discover they are on a ship, so we are spared all of the really dumb characters they meet in their journeys. There was some discussian of the Starlost in this journal several years ago; I don't recall exactly when. ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Barry Gold) Subject: Re: V Date: 5 Jan 85 20:54:18 GMT The first January episode of "V" seemed somewhat better. Only mediocre rather than loathsome. If *I* were the new lizard commander, I'd start out by purging half my troops, brainwashing them, and sending them off to help the rebels. That should assure victory in a couple of weeks. Speaking of the new lizard commander, do you think Regehr (previously seen in black leather brigantine with steel studs as Dirk Blackpool in "Wizards & Warriors" and black leather gladiator armor with steel stud as Lydon in "The Last Days of Pompeii" has a clause in his contract specifying that he be type-clothed rather than type-cast? He looked quite nice in his offbeat garb of black pants, black shirt open to the waste, and a silver belt. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 8 Jan 85 1328-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #12 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jan 85 1328-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #12 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 8 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 12 Today's Topics: Books - Wylie & Story Request & Reviews (2 msgs), Films - Dune (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: THE END OF THE DREAM Date: 2 Jan 85 13:06:06 GMT Comments While Reading Philip Wylie's THE END OF THE DREAM DAW, 1972, $?. A book review by Mark R. Leeper If I am reading a really good science fiction story, I am willing to suspend my disbelief and go where the author wants to take me. Almost all science fiction requires some suspension of disbelief and it comes as a real surprise when you find a story that doesn't. One book that really doesn't is Philip Wylie's THE END OF THE DREAM. What prompted me to read the book was a feeling of deja vu following hearing about a firestorm in Mexico City and a massive chemical disaster in India soon after. I'd read about the first quarter of THE END OF THE DREAM in 1972 and all of a sudden the news sounded like chapters out of the book. So I am re-reading THE END OF THE DREAM, a novel about the end of the world through environmental disasters. My first reaction is that people who claim that Orwell was right "on target" with 1984 should read this novel to find out what "on target" really means. It is eerie how close some sections of this book reflect events that have occurred since it was written. Wylie describes a toxic chemical firestorm in New York City. Not quite accurate enough to make it history, but pretty close to a number of events that have happened. There have been toxic fires near New York and, of course, the Mexico City firestorm. Wylie describes how addicted we are to material goods, so while environmentalism has waves of popularity, they die down and we go back to poisoning the environment. That's a direct hit. He has descriptions of industry paying for "ubiquitous displays of the American future as purged of pollution... [The displays] did not say or much reveal how the 'glory of natural America' would be recovered, or who would do it, where the money would come from or what sacrifices and hardships would accrue to any such attempt. It merely displayed the faits accomplis, everywhere, clear air, clean rivers, and deserts made green, with the endlessly hammered slogan, 'America *can*! America *will*!'" I suppose there was a little of that even before this novel was written, but I remember seeing just what Wylie was describing on Detroit TV five or six years after he described it. Wylie writes with an incredible authenticity and a feel for public psychology. The above was from the last chapter I read. Wylie starts the current chapter I am reading talking about the destruction of a certain part of the potato crop and how the public only understands it in terms of a shortage of potato chips. Even as I am writing this, it is occurring to me that the way I and most other people I know look at the citrus cancre is "what is it going to do to the price of orange juice?" I seem to remember some book being sold with the tag line "Read it while it is still science fiction!" For THE END OF THE DREAM, I can't help but feel I'm too late. Postscript: The above was written when I was about a third the way through the book. I stand by my assessment, though as the story extends further into the future, some of what it describes becomes a little more far-fetched. No more far-fetched than any number of good SF novels, but still a little less likely than the first part. I particularly liked the way Wylie closed the novel. It was one of the best pieces of science ficiton I have read in quite a while. It is still in print from DAW, I think. Go for it. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Date: Sun 6 Jan 85 16:33:32-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: Story Request This is the slimmest of clues, but years ago I read a book (story?) in which the human protagonist visited an alien world with a unique approach toward legislation. As I recall, the way the system worked was that anyone could make a law about anything, and any law could be repealed by a vote of x (some small number -- 5?) other inhabitants. The catch was that if an inhabitant created more than y (again a small number) of laws that were repealed, the lawmaker was severely dealt with (executed?) Okay, Dr. Memory, what work by what author did this scenario appear in? Steve Dennett dennett@sri-nic ------------------------------ From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: The Year's Best Science Fiction (1983), edited by Gardner Subject: Dozois Date: 6 Jan 85 03:52:28 GMT _T_h_e _Y_e_a_r'_s _B_e_s_t _S_c_i_e_n_c_e _F_i_c_t_i_o_n: _F_i_r_s_t _A_n_n_u_a_l _C_o_l_l_e_c_t_i_o_n, edited by Gardner Dozois, 1984. This quarter million word collection is Dozois's first for Bluejay Books, a successor to the _B_e_s_t _S_c_i_e_n_c_e _F_i_c_t_i_o_n _S_t_o_r_i_e_s _o_f _t_h_e _Y_e_a_r series he did for five years for some other publisher. This collection of 1983 stories is nicely catholic in its tastes, with if anything a little too much emphasis on humor and the offbeat. Contents: "Summation: 1983" by the editor, "Cicada Queen" by Bruce Sterling (a Shaper/Mechanist story I enjoyed more the second time around), "Beyond the Dead Reef" by James Tiptree, Jr. (an typically weak Quintana Roo story), "Slow Birds" by Ian Watson (the deserved award winner), "Vulcan's Forge" by Poul Anderson (unsurprising Anderson hard science, mushy character story), "Man-Mountain Gentian" by Howard Waldrop (Zen-Sumo wrestling? better believe it), "Hardfought" by Greg Bear (another award winner), "Manifest Destiny" by Joe Haldeman (a borderline fantasy western), "Full Chicken Richness" by Avram Davidson (weird, funny), "Multiples" by Robert Silverberg (beyond singles bars, you have . . .), "Cryptic" by Jack McDevitt (a quiet, scary SETI tale), "The Sidon in the Mirror" by Connie Willis (moody), "Golden Gate" by R. A. Lafferty (he's done better), "Blind Shemmy" by Jack Dann (not always convincing, but an attention grabber), "In the Islands" by Pat Murphy (a story of generation and other gaps), "Nunc Dimittis" by Tanith Lee (another good vampire story), "Blood Music" by Greg Bear (Bear's _o_t_h_e_r award winning story from 1983), "Her Furry Face" by Leigh Kennedy (another story about wide gaps), "Knight of Shallows" by Rand B. Lee (of parallel universes, and skew ones, too), "The Cat" by Gene Wolfe (from the New Sun universe, I think), "The Monkey Treatment" by George R. R. Martin (funny diet horror story), "Nearly Departed" by Pat Cadigan (postmortem telepathy), "Hearts Do Not in Eyes Shine" by John Kessel (of trust and psychotherepy, and love and memory), "Carrion Comfort" by Dan Simmons (another interesting twist on vampirism), "Gemstone" by Verner Vinge (about some Thing or other), "Black Air" by Kim Stanley Robinson (it'd be tough on the losing side of the Spanish Armada's defeat). -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!hogpd!pegasus!lzmi!psc The above opinions are my own, ...!cbosg!lzmi!psc and do not necessarily represent ...!ucbvax!ihnp4!lznv!psc those of anyone else. ------------------------------ From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Universe 14: anthology of origninal SF, edited by Terry Carr Date: 6 Jan 85 03:50:40 GMT _U_n_i_v_e_r_s_e _1_3: anthology of original science fiction, edited by Terry Carr, 1983. So it becomes almost farcical to say that Terry Carr's _U_n_i_v_e_r_s_e _1_3 (Doubleday) was the best annual original SF anthology of the year [1983], since it was very nearly the _o_n_l_y annual original SF anthology of the year. Nevertheless, it would have been a good anthology in any year, featuring excellent novellas by Bruce Sterling and Michael Bishop, and interesting stuff by Ian Watson, Kim Stanley Robinson, and Leanne Frahm. This anthology isn't quite as good as its predecessor; which is to say, it's pretty damn good. I can't say it doesn't have a single bad story, but it doesn't have any terrible stuff, and the best is very good indeed. If you read SF for ideas, or for characterization, this probably contains what, for you, may be the best stories of the year. Along with the new Ace Specials line, I think Terry Carr has sewed up the 1985 Hugo for best editor of 1984. Contents: "The Lucky Strikes": novella, Kim Stanley Robinson This is an alternate history story. This is a story about an American bombadier in WWII, older and a little wiser than his companions, unhappy with strategic bombing. This is a story about the glory of war, as seen by its young participants, and about how that glory can ferment more wars when the young soldiers become statesmen, policy makers, and voters. One of the above, some of the above, all of the above. This is a character story, not a plot-and-action story. This is an idea story. This is a _g_o_o_d story. All of the above. "Gate of Horn, Gate of Ivory", short story by Robert Silverberg What if the future holds Hell in store for us, if we shall never know a world better than our own, here and now? Or what if the future holds paradise, so grand that the present is intolerable in comparison? Neither is likely. Some things get better, some worse. But simplicity and purity are tools of good writers. Silverberg, more than a good writer, builds a pretty little piece with those tools, and a few more. "Passing as a Flower in the City of the Dead", novelette (?) by Sharon N. Farber Some babies are born without immune systems. Some of them are put into space suits, and in general, germ-free environments. They can never leave. Some adults lose their immune systems, by disease, or more likely, by trying to cure diseases like leukemia. It isn't considered practical to put them in space suits. Would a space habitat be more practical? Could an artist find inspiration in a hospital for the terminally cured? And wasn't there something about one-eyed men in the country of the blind.... "O", short story by Damon Knight "One day, everybody in the world whose name began with the letter _o disappeared." Cute, short, but tries to make a point too heavy for this story to support. "Art in the War Zone", story by Pat Murphy If you declare war on artists, will they fight, or paint? The phrase, "the art of war", may never be the same again. "Interlocking Pieces", short story by Molly Gloss A story about medicine, and moral ambiguity, and forgiveness. Or the lack of any of those. Short, somewhat disturbing, and based upon a new (and scary) idea. "The Menagerie of Babel", novelette by Carter Scholz *sigh* With a strong enough delusion, you don't need reality. Life is meaningless, its variety a violation of order. Darwin was right, Lamark was right. There are people who like this type of story. With a few exceptions, I don't like _t_h_e_m, either. "Deadtime", short story by Joel Richards Time travel would be as useful to policemen as it would be disturbing to philosophers. This story has a new twist: time travel primarily as a tool of law and order. Of course, not everyone _l_i_k_e_s order. This one's a bit hard to follow, but worth it. The characters are, by and large, vivid. The only exception is the killer. He's motivated by some obscure Buddhist logic... and the writer's desire to tell a twisted, but good, story. "Me/Days": short story by Gregory Benford What can I say about this story? I can give away the whole point, and say it didn't make it very well. I can compare it to Greg Bear's "Blood Music", another story I didn't much care for. I can say that I wrote a pretty bad story years ago, consisting entirely of BMDP dumps and unattributed dialog, that I think was a better attempt at telling a story from an inanimate point of view. I can tell you I didn't like "Me/Days" much, but I guess you've figured that out by now. "Black Coral", novelette by Lucius Shepard Shepard's novel, _G_r_e_e_n _E_y_e_s, has been criticized for being confusing. If you didn't like that, you won't like this. I haven't made up my mind yet, but it's by no means my favorite story of the anthology. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!hogpd!pegasus!lzmi!psc The above opinions are my own, ...!cbosg!lzmi!psc and do not necessarily represent ...!ucbvax!ihnp4!lznv!psc those of anyone else. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "DUNE". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 85 10:20:23 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Dune -- the 4-hour film? Reference the note from D. Mitchell about a 4-hour Dune: Every now and then, film critics make reference to the vast amounts of film that have been shot for this or that movie, and which were left on the "cutting-room floor" to make a two-hour movie out of the total amount shot. Examples of this seem to include "The Cotton Club", "Once Upon A Time in America", "The Godfather", etc. Some of these get re-cut and re-issued in the longer versions, either for TV or for theatres. Did "Dune" fall into this category? I don't recall seeing any critic or review mention that "n" thousand feet of film was discarded and we have seen only some percentage of the "real" movie, but, if that was the case, it might explain some of the problems and criticisms we have been discussing here (and on USENET). A four-hour (or some other long length) version might contain the missing characterization and explanation/explication. It wouldn't correct fundamental flaws (such as errors in characterization like Jessica's lack of strength or power), nor factual errors (origin of the term "M'uad D'ib", etc.), but it would have more of a chance to do better. Of course, those who disliked the movie intensely anyway will just have more of it to hate, but those who were ambivalent might find themselves swayed to favor it by a more-complete version. Maybe such a re-cutting could be achived for the videocassette release, if it is unmarketable to release to theatres in a long version. Will Martin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ------------------------------ From: faron!wdr@topaz (William D. Ricker) Subject: 5 hour Dune on TV ? Another Book? Date: 7 Jan 85 23:00:54 GMT In answer to the question of how much usable film was shot, a friend heard on CNN2 that 5 hours of usable, coherent plot will be recycled in a year or two into a 4 or 5 hour mini-series for T.V.. This would include many of the scenes/plot-details we all miss. Regarding the continuation of Dune Books and cannonic status of the movie, _Writer's_Digest_ (current issue) has an on-the-set interview with Frank Herbert. He promises one final volume, to be out in '85 I think, in which he will rap up the series (or so he expects). (He admits to writing one of the Leto sequels because the character wouldn't leave him alone otherwise.) He does endorse not only the screen-play as written by Lynch but also every scene, claiming to have worked the clap-board on each scene himself. (He has been a professional photographer and video cameraman, so he may well have earned his "Technical Consultant" retainer.) William Ricker wdr@MITRE-Bedford.ARPA (MIL) wdr@faron.UUCP (UUCP) decvax!genrad!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP) allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP) Opinions are my own and not necessarily anyone elses. Likewise the "facts". ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Jan 85 1029-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #14 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jan 85 1029-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #14 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 10 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Anthony & Eddings & Lupoff & Sucharitkul (2 msgs) & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Story Request Answered (2 msgs) & What Is a Nimrod (2 msgs) & Awards, Films - Do You Remember (2 msgs) & Movie/Book Combinations, Television - Starlost ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duke!crm@topaz (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams, A new book? Date: 7 Jan 85 17:35:52 GMT It is true, there is a fourth book in the Hitchiker`s trilogy (and that's exactly what it says, don't blame me). In it, Lester Dent (no that's Arthur, isn't it; a truly savage error) anyway, Arthur is back on the reconstructed earth, trying to a) get laid b) figure out where the dolphins went, and c) try to explain why he looks eight years older than he did ``yesterday''. I liked it a lot. Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony-Xanth (spoiler!) Date: 8 Jan 85 08:37:51 GMT "Crewel Lye" (Piers Anthony) isn't really his best effort. More puns than ever (not always very good ones though), and he is very slowly becoming less of a male chauvinist, but the story is disjointed at the beginning and end, the characterization is uneven in Jordan's narrative, and rather repetitious with Jordan being too similar to Bink. The use of different perspectives across the series just barely manages to keep Anthony from rewriting the same story over and over again. I would have preferred it if they'd release "Bearing an Hourglass" in paper cover rather than yet another Xanth book. Hutch ------------------------------ From: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight) Subject: Thanks for the Belgariad recommendation. Date: 8 Jan 85 03:11:35 GMT I'd like to thank the person who recommended the Belgariad series by David Eddings last month. I decided to pick up the first book and was throughly entranced throughout all 5 volumes. Definitely the best read I've had in quite some time. I just loved the characters. They seemed so real and likeable. I strongly second the recommendation. D. Bartholomew ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: CIRCUMPOLAR Date: 8 Jan 85 14:34:42 GMT Circumpolar by Richard A. Lupoff Timescape, 1984, $15.95. A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Yes, it's yet another alternate history novel! But whereas most AH novels are content with a single historical change, this one insists on straining credulity with two (although, strictly speaking, only one is of an historical nature). Premise #1 is that the earth is not a sphere, but a disk (a thick disk, but a disk nonetheless) with the "North Pole" in the center. At the "North Pole" is the Symmes Hole, through which pour torrents of water from the earth's oceans. (Why all the oceans haven't drained to the other side by now is unclear. How gravity works is even less clear. We won't even deal with centrifugal force.) The "South Pole" is (apparently) the rim of the disk and consists of an enormous ice wall. Premise #2 (the historical one) is that this earth's history is identical with ours up until the One Year War, which took place in 1912. In 1912, Theodore Roosevelt was elected and the Germans decided to start the war then instead of waiting two years, and as a result, were quickly defeated. Now how this earth's history could be the same (including conquistadors et al) given how different the geography is) is totally unclear to me. Lupoff glosses over the obvious differences by concentrating his discussion of politics on Europe and the United States, but what about places like South America and Africa, which lie mostly below the equator on our earth and hence would be enormous on the disk described above? The plot has Baron Von Richtofen, his younger brother, and the Princess Irina Lvova (of still-Tsarist Russia) in a "circumpolar" airplane race with Charles Lindbergh, Amelia Earhart, and Howard Hughes. ("Circumpolar" in this case means over the rim and back through the Hole, or vice versa.) Everyone is a stereotype. The Baron and his brother are evil Teutonic types, the Princess is an overly religiously superstitious Russian, the American are noble and inventive. The Germans, in their flight, first meet up with a Teutonic race on the other side of the disk, who live in medieval style castles and have flying machines like look like horses. The Americans meet the descendants of the continent of Mu, who are technologically and politically advanced. There's never any question about who the good guys are or who the bad guys are. Except for the interesting premise (which does not bear close scrutiny), this book has little to recommend it. Aficionados of early manned flight might find some of the aviation descriptions interesting, but otherwise it's nothing special. Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@topaz (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: Re: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul Date: 8 Jan 85 21:38:55 GMT > By the way, does anyone have any other information on him [Somtow > Sucharitkul] , other than what else he's written? (i.e. who is he? > where did he come from? is he actually a "he"? or?) I've read _Mallworld_, _The_Aquiliad_ (sp?), _Starship_and_Haiku_, and the first two books of the inquestor trilogy, _Light_On_the_Sound_ and _The_Throne_of_ _Madness_. He's also written a short story collection about the inquest and a mainstream novel, _Vampire_Junction_, under the name S. P. Somtow. The first two are written with Sucharitkul's bizarre sense of humor. Mallword is about an audit of the human race taken by a governing race of aliens, with samples of human life taken from a planet which is a huge shopping mall. _Mallworld_ and ...Thanks_for_all_the_fish_ are the two books I've read most recently, and I liked _Mallworld_ better. So, for humorous sf, read Mallworld. _The_Aquiliad_ is about an alternate universe where the Roman empire does not fall, but discovers the New World. It's not quite so funny, but it has its moments -- for instance, the names of Roman sf authors. (I'm a fan of P.J Agricola.) _Starship_and_Haiku_ is a strange piece of serious sf. It takes place after a nuclear war, and Japan is the only country that survived more or less intact, although the culture has become more traditional. It stuck me as realy strange while I was reading it, but it's still a good book. Finally, the Inquestor trilogy. This is his best work. Included are a game of power and wars, sentinent stars, whale-like intelligent beings which sing songs of light, and utopias both false and true. The Inquestor's job is the investigation of utopias, and their destruction, since utopias ALWAYS have a flaw. There is, however, a flawless utopia. Inquestors who have visited this utopia are working for the overthrow of the inquest. That's only a basic explanation of the plot -- there's quite a bit more to these amazing books. There is also a book of inquest short stories, published by a different publisher, which I have not read. The third book of the trilogy is due this spring. The Inquestor trilogy is truly great writing, and necessary reading. Some biography -- he is indeed male. I'm not sure of his country of origin or ancestery . Sucharitkul is a composer as well as a writer -- as is fairly evident from his books. He is currently writing an opera with Gene Wolfe. For a picture of Sucharitkul, and a short, strange article by him, see _The_Faces_of_Science_Fiction_ by Patti Perret. This recent book has pictures of just about everyone in sf. It's good, despite a tendency to pose authors with computers, Rubic's cubes, and airbrushed pictures of planets. My personal favorite is one of Thomas Disch reflected in his toaster, with a poem by him. Has anyone out there read _Vampire_Junction_ or Disch's _The_Businessman_ or Wolfe's _Love_Free_Love? (do I have that last turned inside out?) I'd like to hear about them. Sorry if all this is more (or less) than you wanted... Laurence Roberts ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 85 22:18 EST From: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul >is he actually a he? yes Besides _Mall_World_ (or is it _Mallworld_?), he has also written a very funny book called _The_Aquiliad_ about romans, indians and dinosaurs, and some serious stuff I haven't read, such as _Starship_and_Hiaku_(sp?) Has anybody out there read this? Mark ------------------------------ From: amd!jimb@topaz (Jim Budler) Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ? Date: 8 Jan 85 06:07:20 GMT mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) writes: >Do you mean 'Dilvish the Damned'? This was billed as a collection >of short stories, I think, though they do sort of tie together. >... It doesn't say much about how >Dilvish got out of hell, though. >... >If there are other Dilvish stories, I'd like to know about them. The other book is 'The Changing Land'. I've read both of them and enjoyed both of them. Jim Budler Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (408) 982-6547 UUCPnet: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra,intelca}!amd!jimb Compuserve: 72415,1200 The Source: STW265 ------------------------------ From: mhuxt!js2j@topaz (sonntag) Subject: Where has Zelazney gone? Date: 8 Jan 85 17:03:43 GMT Has something happened to Zelazney? It seems as though it's been an awfully long time since he's published a new novel. He hasn't retired or anything like that, has he? On a similar note, how many of you remember a novel called "The Witches of Karres"? The ending of the book seemed to set the stage for a sequel, but one has never appeared. It's author, (whose name I've forgotten) hasn't been publishing any other stuff, either. Maybe someday we'll get the sequel. Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j "Step right up, get your free TANSTAAFL!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 85 10:21:58 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: Steve Dennett's Story Request Uncle Memory suggests: R.A.Lafferty's Camaroi story (one of the two). Either it's "Polity and Education Among The Cameroi", or the other one. Reprinted in many anthologies, deservedly. I believe you can find similar theories in Robert Heinlein's MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, also, in the latter portion where Prof de la Paz & co are debating how to set up the new lunar government. Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 14:19:07-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: Story Request answered The story is in "Nine Hundred Grandmothers", by R.A. Lafferty. You want to read "Polity and Customs of the Camiroi". And then, of course, you want to read the rest of the book. "That way lies rump of skunk and madness." Don Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 8 Jan 1985 12:52:06-PST From: vickrey%lite.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Who/What is a NIMROD? Today the term "Nimrod" came up in conversation, and somebody had to ask "What does it *MEAN*?" Well, we all agreed that it means ding-dong, but now we don't know where it comes from. I seem to remember Nimrod as a character in a book or short story; can anybody supply pointers? Susan ------------------------------ From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: Who/What is a NIMROD? Date: 9 Jan 85 15:20:48 GMT > Today the term "Nimrod" came up in conversation... Well, we all > agreed that it means ding-dong, but now we don't know where it > comes from. I seem to remember Nimrod as a character in a book or > short story; can anybody supply pointers? Susan, the only NIMROD I know is in Genesis. He was the ruler in power when the Tower of babel was being built. As the unfinished tower was a testimoney to mankind's foolishness this may indeed be the connection. Or did the person mean "nimnull" (sp?) from Mork and Mindy. (No! No! Honest! I never watched it ..... just heard people talking about it! Fred Avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio ARPA: grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 1985 1008-CST From: Dan Subject: AWARDS Can anyone send me a list or tell me where I can obtain a list of the following awards: Nebula - 1979, 1981, 1982 Hugo - 1981, 1982 World Fantasy - 1981, 1982 I know Locus always reports the awards, but I no longer have many of my back issues. Thanks for any help. Dan ------------------------------ From: siemens!steve@topaz Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you remembe Date: 8 Jan 85 21:03:00 GMT The second was "The Wizard of Mars". In the beginning of the movie they were attacked by vacuum-cleaner monsters. Very very bad. In case you hadn't guessed, it was supposed to parallel "The Wizard of Oz". Another movie that took an old story and Marsified it was "Robinson Crusoe of Mars", which I thought was real good, back when I was 10 or so. ------------------------------ From: pegasus!naiman@topaz (Ephrayim J. Naiman) Subject: Another one of those "Do you remember ..." Date: 31 Dec 84 23:36:44 GMT Does anyone remember these two movies : 1) The Earth is splitting up and the last scene is a man and a woman looking on as a big chunk of the Earth splits off and forms a new moon thereby stopping whatever bad that was going to happen to the Earth. I think the catalyst was that someone was digging to the Earth's core for geo-thermal energy. 2) Some astronauts are orbiting Mars and some previous civilization on Mars brings them down to fix some sort of machine that fools around with time. The Martians' faces were in pillars. Any ideas ? Thanx, ==> Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4,allegra,ahuta,maxvax,cbosgd,lzmi,...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ From: chabot%amber.DEC@topaz (l s chabot) Subject: Re: Movie/book combinations Date: 8 Jan 85 19:29:54 GMT Please pardon if this is a deadly-old topic, but along the lines of Heinlein and Herbert contributing to movies based on novels, Philip K. Dick was consulted on "Bladerunner" (_Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep_). L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 85 13:34:50-EST (Wed) From: Susan Tabron Subject: STAR-LOST I too remember this series - it was on on Sunday mornings (!) and I *liked* it. I read the book, Phoenix Without Ashes, and liked it too (it's still around someplace). The ship was peopled with examples of as many earth cultures/geographical areas as they could cram in - I think the earth was about to be destroyed, or some such. It wasn't great, but it could have been with the proper writers/producers. (I like naive heros, so you have to make allowances - but I didn't like Lost in Space.) Sue ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Jan 85 0936-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #13 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jan 85 0936-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #13 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 10 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 13 Today's Topics: Books - Hambly & A Contest, Films - 2010 (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Short note on The Darwarth Trilogy (maybe slight spoiler at Subject: end) Date: 8 Jan 85 14:26:55 GMT The *Darwarth Trilogy by Barbara Hambly has been out for a few years, but having just finished reading the books I wanted to share a few thoughts. This is not a review nor is it profound. :-) The books (in paper by Del Rey books) are: *The Time of the Dark*, *The Walls of Air*, and *The Armies of Daylight*. I found this trilogy very enjoyable and quite exciting. This is probably the first series that I have read with such a terrific woman main character. I mean by that, the character of Gil was very well done. (Anyone recommend other fantasy books with good woman main characters?) The other characters were also very good. Worthy of noting is Ingold, the wizard. It is *so* hard, I imagine, to write a book with a wizard main character and not have him/her look/act/sound like Gandalf. Ingold is a unique individual. The ending, also, was very satisfying. It was a surprise to me when the solution to the menace of the Dark was revealed and while the ending could only be classified as "happy", it did hold the promise of problems and hardships ahead along with hope. (I contrast this with the ending of *The Belgariad* series by Eddings -- which I also recommend -- in which everyone was happy, together, wonderful, cheerful, clapping, singing, dancing -- I exaggerate -- etc. ala the too-happy ending of *The Return of the Jedi*.) ****************** TINY SPOILER ******************* One final thought. The idea of romance between a commoner and a person of royal blood is not new. And, in general, I think people tend to think of women being attracted to such stories and ideas. (Cinderella/Prince, Snow White/Prince, other romance storeis and novels...) But I think this is just as an attractive idea for men -- a commoner-man catching the attention of a queen/princess. I enjoyed this development in this story and also in the book *Saving the Queen* by Wm. F Buckley. (STQ is a spy novel but is the only other book I can remember reading with such a relationship.) Fred Avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio ARPA: grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) Subject: First(?) annual(?) round robin short story contest Date: 28 Dec 84 08:09:58 GMT Well, here it is. The contest that nobody has been demanding: The first and possibly last annual net.sf-lovers round robin short story contest. The idea is simple. A high percentage of sf readers are known to be frustrated authors, this contest gives you a chance to take out some of that frustration. Here are the rules. I have appended part one of an sf short story below. Your mission is to write part two. Simple right? Where, you ask, does the contest part come in? Well, it's like this. I'm asking you to send your part 2's to me by netmail , and the person who I judge has best continued the story will have his part 2 posted as the first winner. Of course, I can't keep you from posting it own your own, but where would be the fun in that? There are a few requirements for a winning entry. First and foremost, don't end the story. Second, don't send me anything I would hesitate to post except as rot13. Third, it should be good (whether or not you think part 1 is good). Make your submissions a reasonable length also, I think 2 pages would be sufficient for most purposes. Finally, there will be a slight penalty for killing off either of the main characters -- you can do it, but it had better be worth it. I think you can take the story in many directions, adventure, humor who knows, perhaps even mystery or romance. I doubt very much that it will go anywhere near the way I envisioned it when I plotted it 8 or so years ago, but that's ok, surprise me. If I get at least 3 respones to this, I will post a winner and go ahead and ask for part 3's, otherwise, the contest ends (ignominiously) right here. It's in your hands now! The Tower of the Sun Part 1 by Ted Nolan Mertion flexed his hindlegs luxuriously, relaxing under the singleminded ministrations of his attending workers. He allowed his mind to wander to the fast approaching queening flight. Now there was heaven. To soar the clouds, his sleek wings driving his glistening body faster and farther than any of his competing brothers, to catch his intended, the beautiful Mother of All as she darted teasingly ahead of the drone pack and to know that brief final ecstasy of mating. He shook his head in irritation as the workers started to groom his antennae. Ecstasy, yes he could deal with that. It was just that recently, the "final" part of it was beginning to seem a little much. There was still so much to do, there were never enough drones to do the research that workers were too practical to fool with and after the queening flight, there would be none. Who would invent the cargo balloons, the grub warmers and sting debarbers while the new generation matured? And what about his own work, the flying of the mind? There was so little time. As the workers started to clean each pane of his huge multi-faceted eyes, Mertion began the mental exercises to free his mind from his body, the discipline he had developed and that would doubtless die with him. Suddenly, his perspective changed, and he watched with interest from above as the workers flicked at an minute dirt spot on one of his lenses, but he couldn't linger here, he had to try again the barrier he had come to know so well and with such disgust. He hurled himself,not exactly upward, but outward. It wasn't movement in any physical direction he suspected, but more of an attuning of the senses to a more fundamental reality. As always, he came up on the barrier with no advance warning. It stretched in all directions a formless gray nothing, less substantial than the thinnest mist but as impenetrable as the bedrock of the hive's foundation. Mertion began to slide along the surface looking fruitlessly for the opening he knew had to be there somewhere. As always, he thought , there is no limit to the Great Ones' creation so this cannot be an ending. Time seemed fluid in this world of mind, but after what seemed to him a long interval of searching, he took the thought to a conclusion that had escaped him before. There is no limit to creation, therefore the limit must be in me. He stopped, considered the strange thought from all sides and found it sound. He was at the limits of his mind, not his universe. The thought goaded him, pampered but ignored what did a drone have besides his mind? He would accept no limits on that. He tensed himself and made the ultimate leap that he suddenly knew as the final inevitable result of his studies and.. looking down on his mind as he had earlier looked down on his body, saw the built up prejudices of his racial heritage and rearing. Saw them and erased them, only a mind newborn could solve the problem he had set himself, the knowledge, yes, keep that, but the viewpoint had to go. Finally, the strain overcame him, and he fell back into himself, the moments of metaknowledge gone, but the difference..He laughed with joy. The surface he had perceived as formless gray was now a riotous kaleidoscopic rainbow of color and form, riddled with portals and lines of ethereal force flashing between them. He floated for a timeless instant, entranced with the wonder of it all, and then he dived for the portal nearest him. Die he might soon enough, but till then, he would live as no drone ever had. * * * The battle moved furiously around Rale as he yelled orders to the men of his squad. "Fall back damn it.. they've almost got us surrounded!". He swung his heavy sword furiously, trying to stem the sudden unexpected onslaught of the Aldwin forces. The clangour of weapons and the confused shouting of troops were deafening. According to the Relban spies in Aldwin the thrust into this part of the Relban line was supposed to be just a feint. The king had placed Rale and his mercenaries there to provide token resistance, withdrawing the royal legions to the south where the real attack was to fall. Rale fell back swearing. There had been treachery somewhere, the whole damn Aldwin army was coming through the pass. Heads were sure to roll over this bit of nonsense. And mine could be the first, he acknowledged grimly. They had sent a rider down the line early on, but Rale doubted very much that they could get more troops in time to keep the Aldwins from marching right to the heart of Relba, and right over Rale and his men. He parried again and caught a thrown spear on his shield. His principal foe ducked in reaction to almost being shafted by the toss from his own rear line and Rale spitted him before he could raise his guard again. Stupid fools, no coordination , what the hell was a spearman doing behind the swordsmen? It there weren't so damn many of them this would be easy. He gave ground again. Or if we had some archers. Suddenly, he felt a shooting pain in the back of his skull as if someone had hit him full on with a bludgeon. He crumpled to his knees, his last feeling ,as darkness closed over him, was dull surprise. * * * When he woke again, the sun was sinking over the horizon, casting long bloody shadows over the corpse strewn field. He shuddered and closed his blurry eyes. Dead, he thought, I've been left for dead. Then the next logical step... well, am I? It seemed not, though he might have been more comfortable that way. His head was one massive ache, feeling easily big enough for two people. "Funny you should think that". Rale looked around wildly for the voice; there was no one there. "Actually, you can't look close enough. Allow me to introduce my self. You may call me Mertion". Rale knew then, he was worse than dead. He was possessed. END OF PART 1 Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 [Moderator's Note: Please mail your submissions DIRECTLY to Ted. I will post the next part (and the winner) when announced] ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 9 Jan 1985 07:15:53-PST From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Roger H. Goun) Subject: 2010 responses This is in response to some points raised by S. C. Colbath in V10 #11: If I read correctly, the planet the Discovery is going to is Saturn, not Jupiter, and the moon is Japetus, not Europa. Read Clarke's introduction to 2010 (the book) for a justification of the discrepancies. He decided that where 2001 (the book) conflicted with 2001 (the movie), he would follow the movie in writing the sequel. Thus, Discovery orbits Jupiter, not Saturn, in 2010. When Dave Bowman returned to the Discovery, he piloted the pod into the docking bay manually, not by risking explosive decompression via the airlock. Nope. Hal refused to allow Dave Bowman back into the pod bay, fearing Dave would "jeopardize" the mission. Dave used an emergency airlock not under Hal's control to get back in. Dave forgot his space suit's helmet in his haste to rescue Frank Poole, and had to risk exposure to vacuum to return to the ship. This was more or less the same in book and movie, I think. Does anyone know what that small thing was that flew out of the airlock when it was opened? I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out if it had any significance in 2001. Interestingly, this was covered in 2010 (the book). It was a small scrap of paper. One of the characters (Floyd?) wondered if it might be some vital clue or message left by Bowman, which now floated forever out of reach. It never came up again, though, so I guess it was only a bit of local color. -- Roger Goun ARPA: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 "The above does not necessarily represent the opinion of Digital Equipment Corporation, which probably doesn't care about this stuff anyhow." ------------------------------ Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 08:49:38-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #11 I have not been around for a couple of weeks and my review of 2010 may therefore repeat what has already been said. SPOILER WARNING (btw) I thought it was OK, but just. If I had not read the book I would have NO IDEA what was going on and why, and as it was I was a little confused. Imagine you had not read the book and were not an avid SF fan. Would you really have figured out what happened to Jupiter? No one ever says. "All these worlds are yours" -- would you figure out that they meant the moons of Jupiter? Also, Bowman's wanderings were glossed over very quickly, too fast for anyone not familiar with what he was doing to really understand. I thought the book was better than the movie on general grounds, as well. 2010 was incredibly preachy about US-Soviet amity and ended on an unbelievable note. If the US and USSR were so stupid as to be about to nuke each other, why should they suddenly wise up because Jupiter explodes? Give me a break. Nitpicking on scientific grounds: The astro/cosmonauts using those little rocket packs did not ever spin, yaw, etc. even though they often did not fire them along their centers of gravity. In particular, when they were sending the template for their connecting tube between the Leonov and Discovery, one -naut fired his before the other did and the thing still went in a perfectly straight line. Also, it seemed to me that there was gravity on the Leonov at times when there shouldn't be. And the Leonov's fiery trail through Jupiter's atmosphere--what is there to oxidate, or was the Leonov specifically designed to vent oxygen to impress any hypothetical Jupiter-dwellers? From my viewpoint of having already read the book, the movie was all right. However, if I was one of the typical viewing public, I would have left the theatre completely confused. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jan 85 18:49:00 PST From: Subject: Floyds computer In response to Tom Galloway unless my eyes were totally shot when I saw 2010 ( possible considering the company ) the computer on the beach was a Hewlett Packard HP-110. A much better computer than the Apple //c but still not what one could expect for thirty-five years from now. Even a Convergent Workslate may have looked better. cheers alex ------------------------------ Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 23:28:32-PST From: Bruce Subject: The Monolith As I recall (I can't find my copy of 2001), the monolith was originally called TMA-1 for Tycho Magnetic Anomaly One. The funny thing here is that the second monolith was called TMA-2, although (a) it was not in Tycho and (b) it was not magnetic. Of course, it could be my memory that's anomalous instead! (Maybe TMA stood for The Mon Alith?) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 Jan 85 1224-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #15 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 85 1224-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #15 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 11 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 15 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Anthony & Piper & Collecting Books & Book Requests (3 msgs) & Best Sellers & Female Protagonists & Book Requests Answered (2 msgs), Television - Bad TV & Star Lost, Miscellaneous - Western Recon II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jan 85 10:18:18 PST (Friday) From: Morrill.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: So Long, And Thanks .... SPOILER WARNING!!! If you haven't read the book you may not want to read on. Douglas Adams definitely opened a lot of unanswered questions in his latest installment of the Hitchiker's trilogy. I'm curious if anyone out there has a theory on any of these questions. 1) What is the Earth doing back in existance? 2) Why don't Fenchurch's feet touch the ground? 3) Why did Arthur, Fenchurch and Wonko the Sane receive gray crystal globes from the dolphins and why does Arthur's globe have only half of the inscription, "So Long, and Thanks ..." 4) Why would Trillian marry Zaphod and bear his children? 5) Is Marvin really dead? 6) And as Arthur was about to ask, why does Ford keep returning to Earth? Any ideas? Toby ------------------------------ From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony-Xanth Date: 10 Jan 85 06:59:40 GMT I really enjoyed A Spell for Chameleon, but Xanth wears very thin after the first trilogy. I agree; get the hourglass book out. Cheryl Nemeth All opinions are my own, of course. ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (e.leeper) Subject: Re: little fuzzy Date: 8 Jan 85 13:21:51 GMT The "Little Fuzzy" series is interesting for a number of reasons. I have only read the first two books (LITTLE FUZZY and THE OTHER HUMAN RACE, a.k.a. FUZZY SAPIENS), and found only the first worth reading. However, I feel I should point out that LITTLE FUZZY bears a remarkable resemblance to a book entitled YOU SHALL KNOW THEM by Vercors (pen name for someone whose real name I forget). THE OTHER HUMAN RACE bears a remarkable resemblance to OLIVER TWIST. YOU SHALL KNOW THEM deals with much the same issues as LITTLE FUZZY (a race of pre-men are discovered in the jungle--they are considered animals, and the main character impregnates one of the females in order to get the courts to test their humanity). The two of them were sort of cobbled together in 1970 into a movie called SKULLDUGGERY (which starred Burt Reynolds). Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Wed 9 Jan 85 16:04:21-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Collecting Books Collecting Old and Out of Print Books If you are half way serious about collecting books, and/or, if you are interested in collecting new limited edition books, then you should subscribe to LOCUS magazine. Locus carries announcements of new books, display ads of large and small publishers, and classified ads for mail order book companies. Almost all small press books are announced here. Most mail order dealers of collectible books advertise here. LOCUS Publications $24.00 for 12 issues 2nd class PO Box 13305 $31.00 for 12 issues 1st class Oakland, CA 94661 It is easy to disagree with the editorial material, and even with their nine Hugos, but their book announcements and advertisements are very useful. One of the largest dealers in science fiction and fantasy literature is L. W. Currey, Inc. catalog $2.50 Antiquarian Bookseller Elizabethtown, New York 12932 They also carry most new hardcover sf and fantasy, including small publisher books in a separate catalog. In their July 1984 catalog # 77, they list Herbert, Frank. Dune. Chilton Books [1965] 1st ed. Signed by Herbert. $600.00 (Herbert's signiture is not rare.) If you are interested in obtaining a copy of Dune in hardcover, Putnam reprinted it in hardcover last year (1984) at the same time as Heretics. It should still be available at normal new book prices (<$20.00). For very, very serious collectors, a new catalog is coming from The Book Sail PO Box 5728 Orange, CA 92667 of rare and collectible science fiction and fantasy books and memorabilia. It will have things like the original manuscript for Stoker's `Dracula'. The catalog is quite a production by itself, a full color Rowena cover, forward by Bradbury, and a new short story by Bloch. The deluxe hardcover will be signed by all three, plus a short story by William Nolan. Softcover $45.00 Deluxe hardcover $85.00 For those of you that do not have access to a real bookstore (Walden/Dalton is to a real bookstore like McDonalds is to a real restaurant), I recommend F. and S. F. Book Co., Inc. P.O. Box 415 free catalog Staten Island, New York 10302 They carry a very complete line of hardcover, paperback, and small publisher science fiction and fantasy. They normally do not carry signed and numbered editions. The good part is 10 percent off on orders over $10., 20 percent off over $25. and 25 percent off plus free shipping over $100. No sales tax unless order is from New York. I have ordered from them (wholesale) for over five years. Randy Neff. NEFF@SU-SIERRA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 1985 14:51 EST From: Dean Sutherland Subject: Name the Book... I read this when in Junior High, so i'm fuzzy on details. If anyone can identify the author/title/publisher etc. I would appreciate it. The book is set in a far future Earth whose sole export to the rest of the (non-human) galaxy is its medical technology. The hero is the first non-human medical student sent to earth. The book covers his training, and some of his early career. I believe that this is not part of the "Med Series" by Leinster (sp?) or of the "Sector General" series by White. I think it may have been by Alan E. Nourse, but I'm not at all sure. Dean F. Sutherland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 1985 14:55 EST From: Dean Sutherland Subject: Can anyone identify this book? It was written by Alan E. Nourse (I think...) Hero is a member of "Earth Intelligence". He is trying to catch a spy for the "bad guys" (I don't remember who they are). The spy has the ability to teleport himself from any point on a planet to any other, or to teleport from ground to orbit (or vice versa). I recall that the Earth empire held together because their military could supposedly cause suns to nova. The only other thing that I remember is that many characters turn out to actually be different people than the reader is led to believe. In fact, at least one character really isn't the person HE thought he was... Dean F. Sutherland ------------------------------ Date: Fri 11 Jan 85 17:26:06-EST From: Michael Eisenberg Subject: request for information I'm looking for the title and author of a book of SF short stories that I saw about 10 years ago... Can anyone out there help? I only read a couple of the stories; both, I think, took place on Mars. One involved some explorers who get trapped in a large cavern containing a monster that plucks out the eyes of its victims (pretty gruesome, huh?). Another involves a man who (along with a party of others) finds a sort of "ghost town" in which the people were killed by weird creatures that enfold themselves about the heads of their prey. (Also pretty gruesome.) I know this is all rather vague; I'm not even positive about the information presented above (it's been a long time). But I do remember that the book was terrifically written... Does this ring a bell, anyone? Thanks in advance... - Mike Eisenberg (DUCK@MIT-OZ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 10 Jan 85 19:31:20-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: Best Sellers Something I've wondered about for a while is what SF books are the most popular (ie. sell the most copies)? Are they the same ones that win awards? Are they the ones promoted as "mainstream" books? Or are they classics that go on selling year in and year out? Has anyone out there ever seen a listing of bestselling SF books for, say the last 5 years, 10 years, etc? Anyone know where this might be found (or the numbers to compute such lists)? Steve Dennett dennett@sri-nic ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 22:44 EST From: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #13 in regards to the request for fantasy literature with a strong female protaganist read c.j.cherryh's morgaine trilogy. it is good solid work though it is only marginally fantasy (more sf than f). for those not familiar with c.j.cherryh's work i cannot emphasize enough how good it is. read it and have your mind blown. shades/g.d.cooper ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jan 85 18:01:05 PST (Thu) To: Steve Dennett Subject: Re: Story Request From: Alastair Milne > This is the slimmest of clues, but years ago I read a book > (story?) in which the human protagonist visited an alien world > with a unique approach toward legislation. As I recall, the way > the system worked was that anyone could make a law about anything, > and any law could be repealed by a vote of x (some small number -- > 5?) other inhabitants. The catch was that if an inhabitant > created more than y (again a small number) of laws that were > repealed, the lawmaker was severely dealt with (executed?) Okay, > Dr. Memory, what work by what author did this scenario appear in? > > Steve Dennett > dennett@sri-nic Sounds a little like Frank Herbert's "Dosadi Experiment", which is one of 3 or 4 books in the same universe. The inhabitants were the Gowachin, a rather frog-like people with (to us) very odd ideas of legal proceedings. The protagonist was a human (Jorge McKie), one of the very few whose legal degree was acknowledged by the Gowachin bar, called in to defend a Gowachin against charges of monstrous atrocities on the planet Dosadi. I don't recall anything about anybody at all making new laws, or about their repeal, but I believe that a trial's results could establish new law, and a defendant who managed to be acquitted might be torn apart by the spectators. I don't recall specifically whether unsuccessful lawmakers were executed, but it would certainly be consistent with Gowachin practice. Sound at all familiar? Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 85 12:07 EST From: "Allan C. Wechsler" Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #12 The story Steve Dennett wants, about a society with bizarre legislative customs, is "Polity and Law among the Camiroi" by R. A. Lafferty. It's a companion-piece to "Primary Education among the Camiroi", same author. I love Lafferty, in small doses. My two favorites are "Nine Hundred Grandmothers" and "Land of the Great Horses". I don't like the man's novels, probably because they exceed the recommended dosage levels. --- Allan ------------------------------ From: ukma!sean@topaz (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: Any "V" fans out there.......? Date: 7 Jan 85 08:50:53 GMT Isn't it amazing how many BAD programs you will watch when you're young? I practically grew up on Space 1999 (had to - I had seen every Star Trek about 12 times, knew the lines better than the actors). ------------------------------ From: uwvax!derek@topaz (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: STAR-LOST Date: 10 Jan 85 15:37:49 GMT Is this that same television show that Harlan Ellison was talked into writing for in Canada, but then stopped and even refused to let them use his name on it when they, in his opinion, hacked both his pride and his story to pieces? If so, I would like to see some of it, for he gives a rather humorous account of the fiasco as part his book, "Stalking the Nightmare," or something like that. derek Derek Zahn @ wisconsin ...!{allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1985 02:18 EST From: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: western recon ii poem as some of you may have heard, last october, at western recon ii, there was a great deal of trouble with the salt lake city downtown hilton. it was so excessive that marion zimmer bradley called up charlie brown at locus to give him the story. whether this was printed or not i am unsure as i keep forgetting to subscribe (that reminds me my analog subscription ran out [oh well {sigh}]). anyway as an attendee of this convention i was so sorely tried and peeved that i wrote the first two verses of a poem about the trials and tribulations of western recon ii. the first verse was printed up on a home computer, by a friendly soul, along with the address for the salt lake city better business bureau and the salt lake city tourist administration center. i read both verses at the closing ceremonies and was requested to finish it. i did. so here is the entire version of If Rudyard Kipling Had Attended Western ReCon II I went into a Hilton-'ouse as a conventioneer, The manager 'e up an' sez, "we serve no fans in here." The girls be'ind the desk they laughed an' giggled fit to die, I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I: O it's ReCon this, an' ReCon that, an' "ReCon go away"; But it's "Thank you, Western ReCon", when the bills are due to pay-- The bills are due to pay, my boys, the bills are due to pay, O it's "Thank you, Western ReCon" when the bills are due to pay. I went into a Hilton as sober as could be, They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me; They sent me down to Denny's an' round the shoppin'-malls, But when it comes to payin', Lord! they'll pack us in the 'alls! For it's ReCon this, an' ReCon that, an' "ReCon, wait outside"; But it's "Special rate for ReCon" when the debit's on the ride-- The debit's on the ride, my boys, the debit's on the ride, O it's "Special rate for ReCon" when the debit's on the ride. I went into the banquet after I 'ad tracked it down, For they kept a movin' it an' sent us all aroun'. I settled at my table an' set waitin' in my seat, An' then they up an' tells us we must pay afore we eat. Aye it's ReCon this, an' ReCon that, an' "ReCon hope ya die"; But it's "Savior of the Hilton" when the 'otel funds run dry-- The 'otel funds run dry, my boys, the 'otel funds run dry, O it's "Savior of the Hilton" when the 'otel funds run dry. I went into a Hilton for the bardic circle there, An' a guardsman comes an' tells me "we'll 'ave no singin' 'ere. We know the 'all is paid for an' that you draw a crowd, But the Hilton doesn't like you; because you're too damn proud." Now it's ReCon this, an' ReCon that, an' "ReCon you're a dud"; But it's "Hilton loves a ReCon" when the ink runs red as blood-- The ink runs red as blood, my boys, the ink runs red as blood, O it's "Hilton loves a ReCon" when the ink runs red as blood. Geoffrey D. Cooper (in the Public Domain.) i hope that you enjoy it at that you will sniff out what happened (most of the poem is literally true). those people who were there and were expecting me to send them a copy well i will, when i catch up on my back mail. right now i'm at about 1976 but i hope to catch up by the end of the decade. keep the faith people shades/g.d.cooper snail: 47 manomet ave hull, ma 02045 (617) 925-1099 arpa: mly.g.shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 Jan 85 1317-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #16 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 85 1317-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #16 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 12 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 16 Today's Topics: Books - Bellairs (2 msgs) & Chandler & Eddings (2 msgs) & Sucharitkul (2 msgs) & Zelazny (3 msgs), Films - A Crack in the World (3 msgs) & The Worst SF Movie & Valis, Miscellaneous - Who/What is a Nimrod (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tikal!rmorgan@topaz (R J Morgan) Subject: John Bellairs Date: 9 Jan 85 17:33:17 GMT Several years ago I ran across a surprising little book called _The_Face_in_the_Frost_, by John Bellairs. Has anyone seen, know of, or better, read any other books by the same author? Thanks, R J Morgan ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz Subject: Re: John Bellairs Date: 11 Jan 85 18:42:35 GMT > Several years ago I ran across a surprising little book called > _The_Face_in_the_Frost_, by John Bellairs. Has anyone seen, know > of, or better, read any other books by the same author? John Bellairs is one of the MOST difficult authors to find old books by. I have a total of seven, and I THINK that is about half of his total books (I can't even find a bibliography of his stuff). Most of his books are "young adult", and the ones I have are: The House With a Clock in Its Walls The Letter, the Witch, and the Ring (the above are part of a trilogy) The Curse of the Blue Figurine The Mummy the Will and the Crypt The Spell of the Sorcerer's Skull (the above are a trilogy) The Dark Secret of Weatherend I know of three others (although I have never seen these books) The Pendant and the Shuffly St. Fidgeta and Other Parodies The Figure in the Shadows (the third in the House and Letter trilogy) I have heard vague rumours that there is another triolgy, but nothing is sure. They are all quite good books, he is wonderful on a rainy sunday afternoon. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval) Subject: A. Bertram Chandler? Date: 9 Jan 85 17:28:12 GMT Last time I looked at LOCUS (several months ago), it seemed A. Bertram Chandler had suffered a stroke. Anyone know for sure the state of his health (if any -- I hope he's not gone.)? "Take this //JOB and run it!" Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 1985 21:41-EST From: sue@mit-grape-nehi (Susan Felshin) Subject: Eddings' Belgariad It's fairly clear that the titles of the 5 books of the Belgariad refer to chess pieces and concepts. However, not being much of a chess player, I didn't see any relation between the plot and/or characters of the books and a chess game. Are there any chess players out there who liked the books? What do you think? I'm betting that the whole quintology (? pentology? or better, series) could be translated into a coherent chess game if one only knew how. Sue Felshin sue@mit-grape-nehi ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@topaz (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Thanks for the Belgariad recommendation. Date: 11 Jan 85 01:30:40 GMT dub@pur-phy.UUCP (Dwight) writes: >Definitely the best read I've had in quite some time. I just loved >the characters. They seemed so real and likeable. I strongly >second the recommendation. > D. Bartholomew I would like to add an interesting observation about the series that no-one on the net has yet brought up(as far as I know). *All* the characters and *all* the races are *pure* *stereotypes*. The incredible thing is that Eddings was still able to make them "real and likeable" as Mr. Bartholomew says! Amazing! Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|burdvax|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|sdcsvax} !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen ------------------------------ From: ddb%mrvax.DEC@topaz (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076) Subject: Somtow Sucharitkol (sp?) Date: 9 Jan 85 16:11:14 GMT He exists, he is a he. He was a guest of honor at Minicon last year. In addition to Mallworld, I've seen several other paperbacks recently. He also has released a vampire novel, marketed as mainstream or horror or something, under the pseudonym S. P. Somtow (publisher thought the horror market couldn't deal with his real name; at least, that's his story). You may notice how evasive I'm being about exact titles. I'm at work, they are at home. He will be "sucker guest of honor" (sometimes rendered as "sucker-it-kol guest of honor" at this year's Minicon. This is a longer story than it sounds like.... -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jan 85 00:28:17 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul Somtow Sucharitkul is Indeed Male. He comes from Thailand, and is in direct line for the throne (although I heard he got slightly bent out shape recently when they made girls eligible heirs....he dropped a couple of hundred places). In the dedication to one of his books (I don't remember which) he thanks a Princess for something...I believe she is his sponsor. (gives him money and stuff) He is a rather strange person...I almost met him at last Lunacon...Someone stuck something near my ear at a party that was saying "More right, use frash"...I turned and an oriental type was sticking this camera up to someone else's ear. I was later told this was Somtow. I have also been told that he sometimes writes columns for Locus, but of this I am not sure. _Light on the Sound_ is one of the most amazing books I have ever read. I found _Starship and Haiku_ both fascinating and depressing. _Mallworld_ I found just plain weird. I haven't had a chance to read the next Inquestor book, though I *think* I bought it..... I don't know anything about his musicianship. But if anyone is interested in hearing any more weird stories about him, send me a usenet address and I will pump my fen friends for more weird Somtow Stories..... hugs on all /amqueue ------------------------------ From: hogpd!jrrt@topaz (R.MITCHELL) Subject: More on Dilvish Date: 9 Jan 85 19:41:34 GMT back in May, I reviewed DILVISH, THE DAMNED and THE CHANGING LAND for the local SF-club newsletter. In view of the recent comments on these two books, I present below that review: Imagine a heroic figure, endowed with tremendous physical abilities and magical talents. Add a hefty dose of tragic flaws. Stir in demons, ancient gods, and a powerful mage upon whom the hero has declared vengeance. Serve up with the usual trimmings of fair damsels, bizarre creatures, etc. What do you have? Well, if you do it right and you want a really depressing work, you have Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone series. If you do it wrong, without sufficient attention to the Grand Epic at hand, you get Zelazny's Dilvish books. In DILVISH, THE DAMNED and its sequel, THE CHANGING LAND, we follow Dilvish as he tracks down Jerelak, the evil magician who caused him to be tortured for 200 years in Hell. Naturally, Dilvish gets sidetracked, sent on false scents, etc., all in the fine tradition of heroic fantasy. Where Zelazny lets the reader down is in the details. Dilvish's universe is not painted with any clarity; I wanted to know a lot more about Hell, or how Dilvish got his "demonic metal horse, Black," or what the sociology of the land was like. The world never seems tangible. Zelazny takes the easy way out of the corners he puts Dilvish in. For instance, early in the first book, much is made about the invincibility of a foe's armor. The reader is led to expect an epic struggle in which the hero (through force of will, potent magic, and craftiness) manages to eke out a victory. No such luck. After Zelazny raises your expectations, you turn the page to find the battle already over, with the unsatisfying explanation that the armor wasn't so invulnerable after all. All the potentially interesting characters, even Dilvish, have two-dimensional personalities. The reader gets the impression that Dilvish is going through the motions, like a clockwork paladin, emotionlessly "fulfilling his destiny" without taking a personal interest in his actions. At least Elric brooded and fought against Fate; Dilvish just doesn't come across as a heroic figure, tragic or otherwise. If you like dark fantasy, stay away from these two books. Rob Mitchell {ihnp4,allegra}!hogpd!jrrt ------------------------------ From: kupfer@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike Kupfer) Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ? Date: 10 Jan 85 06:21:58 GMT > I first read "The Changing Land" but then picked up the > other one (I forget its title). This seconds takes place before > "The Changing Land" but was apparently published after it. Anyone > know the story behind this curiousity ? I assume that Zelazny first wrote "The Changing Land" and then decided that Dilvish was an interesting enough character that he wrote "Dilvish, the Damned" (which I haven't read yet). Does anyone know if the same thing (chronology in story is the opposite of publication order) happens with "To Die in Italbar" and "Isle of the Dead"? (Actually, it's not even clear to me which of those 2 stories is supposed to happen first.) Mike Kupfer kupfer@Berkeley ...!ucbvax!kupfer "He says, 'Thank you very much, but you can have the bottle back.'" ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz Subject: Re: More on Dilvish Date: 11 Jan 85 18:48:09 GMT > Where Zelazny lets the reader down is in the details. Dilvish's > universe is not painted with any clarity; I wanted to know a lot > more about Hell, or how Dilvish got his "demonic metal horse, > Black," or what the sociology of the land was like. But Zelazny NEVER explains anything. In "Isle of the Dead" there are these Gods running about, who come from no where. In "Nine Princes in Amber" we have these unicorns and "shadows" that are never really explained. In "Roadmarks" there are these funny dragons. In . You really can't single out the Dilvish books for this, Zelazny has always put in full blown universes without explaining anything about them. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 85 7:33:56 EST From: "Richard G. Turner //CCTO USARI//" To: Ephrayim J. Naiman Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you remember ..." Your movie where the Earth was splitting and a large chunk of the Earth flies off into space is from "Crack in The Earth" if I remember correctly. -rick ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 11 Jan 1985 06:43:20-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA To: jlr%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: movie request "A Crack in the World" The movie about a chunk of the Earth splitting off while our heros watch from a half a mile away is "A Crack in the World". The premise is that scientists try to tap the geothermal energy at the Earth's core by setting off a nuclear explosion deep, deep underground. The blast triggers a fault line that starts propagating around the world. Get this, though, they think that if a crack goes all the way around the Earth it will break apart. They think that the Earth is held together by its crust the way an egg is held by its shell. Nitwits. Aside from that the movie was fairly well made. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: Fri 11 Jan 85 22:31:14-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Movie Title The Movie where the earth's crust is split, and it all ends happily when the fracture line closes in upon itself, thereby creating a new moon, is surely Crack in the Earth released (I think) in the early '70s The only "special effects" are real volcano footage ineptly overlaid with screaming humans &c. The science is absurd. The characters seem to be cardboard except that they survive temperatures above 451F. In sum, a fairly good SF movie. ------------------------------ From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Worst SF movie Date: 10 Jan 85 19:59:17 GMT My vote for worst SF movie is "Horror of Party Beach." Cheryl Nemeth ------------------------------ From: sdcc3!rich@topaz (rich) Subject: VALIS Date: 11 Jan 85 05:36:23 GMT has any honestly know of the movie VALIS which Phillip Dick claims his novel(?) VALIS involves??? i dont suppose it was 'The Man Who Fell to Earth.' ? mail is more than welcome. thanks -rich ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: Who/What is a NIMROD? Date: 10 Jan 85 05:29:10 GMT The name "Nimrod", usually seen in connection with the adjectival phrase "the mighty hunter", is Biblical in origin. I don't have a Bible handy right now, so I can't give you a pointer, but somewhere in Genesis is a pretty good bet. I don't know about the original Nimrod, but you are basically correct about the current meaning. When you designate someone a nimrod, you are implying that he is the kind of person who frequently populates the woods of the northern Midwest during deer season, exhibiting the following sort of behavior: Roars down back roads in his four-wheeler, usually with some like-minded friends and a flask of potent beverage, shooting at anything that moves (squirrels, domestic animals, farmers, other hunters, occasionally a deer stupid enough to get in the way) and some things that don't (road signs, parked cars, barns, birdhouses). Fortunately, he is usually too drunk to hit what he is aiming at; Has roughly the same opinion of property lines as Attila the Hun might have; Does most of his hunting in wildlife sanctuaries (because that's where the animals are, dummy!) during the day, and in bars near the red-light district at night. Sometimes omits the daytime portion of the hunt entirely. And, despite all this, usually considers himself to be a regular wizard with the gun. However, the usual way he bags a deer is to run one down on the highway. So the best way to define "nimrod" would be to say "a jerk, specifically a hunter, who acts in a ridiculous and dangerous manner while nonetheless retaining a grossly overrated opinion of his skills". Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ...Killjoy went that-a-way---> ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 85 09:33:01 EST From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Nimrod Nimrod does indeed appear in the Bible (can't do the chapter & verse bit), where, as I recall, he is called a hunter. If you look in a thesaurus under "hunter" or its equivalent, you should find "Nimrod" used as one of those inflated Victorian-type synonyms (You know, as when a fox is called "Reynard", a rooster "Chanticleer", etc.) "Nimrod" as a term of disparagement probably (I have nothing but memory to back this up with) came from its use in a Bugs Bunny cartoon, where Bugs, referring to Elmer Fudd as a hunter, says something like "I can't do that to the little Nimrod." People watching who never heard of Nimrod before probably assumed it was Brooklynese for "dodo" or suchlike. There. Amateur etymology, while-U-wait. Chris [Moderator's Note: Thanks to the many who responded with similar information. Jim McKie (mcvax!jim@topaz) Dick Binder (binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl) Ridgway@MIT-MULTICS Dick Grantges (hound!rfg) L S Chabot (chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl) Stephen C. Woods (cepu!scw@ucla-cs) ] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 12 Jan 85 2253-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #17 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jan 85 2253-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #17 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 13 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 17 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL DUNE ISSUE ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "DUNE". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ Subject: Dune: the parable Date: 07 Jan 85 11:45:20 EST (Mon) From: Marshall Rose I couldn't resist... In ancient times there was a city full of many people. They differed quite a bit in talent, interest, and ability, but they all tried to lead full lives. Many days distant from the city lived a great sage who knew all about everything. One day, an artisan living in the city went forth and travelled to the sage, seeking to ask him the answer to life and so forth. This artisan did not expect a simple answer like "42" (but that, alas, is another story), but something a lot more detailed. After a long and arduous journey, the artisan reached the sage. The sage instructed the artisan for many years as to the answer of the questions posed by the artisan. Much wiser, and much older, the artisan returned to his city. The elders of the city, upon hearing that the artisan had returned from talking to the sage, invited the artisan to come forward and reveal to all the inhabitants of the city what he had learned. Since this sounded interesting, a large number of citizens attended the talk. Included in the audience were others who had visited the sage before and we quite wise the ways of sagedom, along with people who had heard of the sage, but never met him, and those who had never heard of the sage and didn't know quite what to expect. The audience differed quite a bit in talent, interest, and ability, but were all interested in hearing what was to be said. The artisan gave a "short" 4 hour talk in which he used lots of audio-visual aids and hand-waving, skipping over some parts, condensing other parts, and so on. After the talk, the artisan went home. Later that evening, those members of the audience paid the artisan a visit. They demanded to know how he could degrade the sacred teachings of the sage by distorting it thus. The artisan gave them two answers. 1. That's Hollywood. 2. That the artisan's talk was geared for an audience of many talents, interests, and abilities. Although some in the audience could fully appreciate the intracies of the sage's teachings, many could not without visiting the sage themselves. Furthermore, the majority of the audience got the gist of what was going on, and perhaps would be inspired to visit the sage themselves to get the whole story. The artisan then mentioned that nearly everyone who hadn't visited the sage before agreed that the talk was entertaining. /mtr ------------------------------ From: ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie ) Subject: Dune-- Really a joke this time Date: 8 Jan 85 22:38:27 GMT One of the local drama critics suggested a good ending line for "Moby Worm" would be the line: Oh Sting, Where is thy death? -Ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 1985 05:00 EST From: Jim Aspnes Subject: Having Dune by Halving Dune > From: Bob Larson > The only way to have a comprehensable 3 or 4 hour Dune movie would > be to reduce the number of characters... but then again, we > wouldn't really have Dune anymore. Oh, but getting rid of characters is so much fun. Out of those that made it to the movie (alas, Count Hrasimir Fenring, my long-standing favorite minor character, didn't make it) I'd vote for the following to get the ax: 1. Feyd. 2. The Shadout Mapes. 3. Stilgar Naib. (Liet-Kynes is vastly more important) 4. The Princess Irulan. 5. Duncan Idaho. 6. Gurney Halleck. 7. Chani. 8. The Padishah Emperor Shaddam IV 9. Assorted Spacing Guild skinheads, punks, and navigators. This leaves: Leto, Liet-Kynes, Paul, The Lady Jessica, Thufir, The Baron Harkonnen, Dr. Yueh, The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohammed, Piter de Vries, (The Beast) Rabban, and Alia, surely enough characters to act out many of the intrigues woven into the book. Complaints? Flames? Counter-suggestions? I'd much rather see some good, healthy second-guessing than some of the reviews that have been dribbling into my mailbox lately. JIm ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: Dune rumor Date: 10 Jan 85 01:19:21 GMT A persistent rumor informs me that in the original preview showings of Dune the film was actually 3.75 hours long and has since been cut back to 2.5. Some people claim to have actually seen (or know someone who's seen) the 3.75 hour version. I haven't seen either version and have no idea what's been cut, if anything. Anyone else know? sitting in a pile of junk on the runway, wondering what happened The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI If thy CRT offend thee, pluck 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. it out and cast it from thee. Santa Monica, California 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 85 10:03 PST From: Tom Perrine Subject: Dune file prints to be "protected" Universal Studios announced that all of the prints of Dune would be uniquely "security coded" in some magic fashion, to aid in copyright protection/prosecution. Each of the 1350 prints will be marked and tracked, to detect which prints are illegally copied onto videocassette. Supposedly, the code will be incorporated in such a way that the identifying marks will be transferred to any tape or film copies and could not be edited out. This will allow them to identify the source of any bootleg copies, and to prosecute the villians. To quote from the AP story in the San Diego Union: "We felt we had no choice in the light of the tremendous interest in the film and the number of followers of Frank Herbert's works," said Charles Morgan, the Universal senior vice-president who directs the company's anti-piracy program. Does this mean that all Herbert fans are pirates, or just willing to pay pirates? Does anyone know how this is done? I cant think of any way to mark prints that couldn't be edited off a tape copy. Looks like security B.S. to me. Tom Perrine ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz Subject: long version of "Dune" Date: 9 Jan 85 20:08:16 GMT Here's a direct quote from an interview with Frank Herbert (in the LA Weekly) concerning the long version of "Dune": " The only way the movie could have been made was if they spent megabucks on it. And to be pragmatic about it, that meant that they had to do a production they could show in theaters everywhere, and that meant that they had to cut it. Luckily, we have about five hours of film. In fact, we have as much film on the cutting room floor as we have on the screen. All the scenes that everybody misses from the book are all there. So we are now discussing doing a special mini-series for T.V. about three or four years down the pike - essentially the uncut version of the film." As others have pointed out, many of the things wrong with "Dune" did not have to do with things left out of the film. Perhaps a longer version would fill in gaps and allow them to dump the stupid voiceovers, perhaps some weak characterizations would become stronger, perhaps there would be more coherence. I'd certainly like to find out, but I think that even at five hours "Dune" would be heavily flawed. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: opus!kwebb@topaz (Kirk Webb) Subject: Frank Herbert interview Date: 9 Jan 85 05:20:04 GMT Here is an article from the Boulder Daily Camera, Sunday, Jan 6, 1985. It is by Kathryn Bernheimer, the paper's film critic. Novelists are notoriously critical of what film directors do to their books. They leave too much out. They try to put too much in. They distort the author's intention. They alter the tone. They spice the story up with unwarranted sex and violence. They omit the best scene. They rewrite already perfect dialogue. They change the ending. Frank Herbert is the exception, a completely contented writer. "Dune," to hear Herbert tell it, is not only an admirably accurate adaptation of his sci-fi classic, it's one hell of a good movie. You just can't coax a grumble out of the man. And that's after he's read the mostly negative reviews. "The movie is absolutely faithful to the essential thrust of the book," Herbert said cheerfully during a recent phone interview. "It creates a charismatic leader just the way I did. Some scenes are precisely the way they are in the book. Others are better visually. David (director David Lynch) actually helped my writing by getting me to think more visually." Herbert served as technical advisor on "Dune," and reports that the filmmakers actually listened to him. He only had to put his foot down once, and was in perfect agreement on a number of important points, such as the decision not to cast a well-known actor in the leading role. (Newcomer Kyle MacLachlan was cast as Paul Atreides after a year-long search). Herbert did not write the screenplay -- at least not the one used, which was written by Lynch. "I wrote a dismal screenplay," Herbert candidly remarked. "It was too long, and I didn't choose the right visual metaphors. It's a major problem to condense a book with so many layers in it." Since Herbert's first "Dune" book appeared in 1965, followed by four sequels with a fifth due to be published in the spring, numerous attempts have been made to bring his best seller to the screen. Directors such as Chilean filmmaker Alejandro "El Topo" Jodorowsky tried their hand at transformig the mystical, mythical novel, which has sold more than 10 million copies and been translated into 14 languages, into a workable screenplay. Jodorowsky's plans for a 12-hour film failed, and he lost his financing in 1975. Producer Dino de Laurentiis purchased the rights to "Dune" three years later. De Laurentiis and his daughter Raffaella De Laurentiis, who eventually co-produced the $40 million "Dune," promised Herbert they would remain true to the book. They kept their word, according to Herbert, who noted that "Hollywood is notorious for the cheap shot. But when director Ridley Scott mentioned that he wanted to introduce incest between the hero and his mother to Dino, he was out." Lynch was chosen on the basis of "The Elephant Man," which garnered eight Oscar nominations. Herbert admired the 1980 film for the way the director "took you to Victorian England without focusing hard on the environment, but on the characters," Herbert said, adding, "I think he did the same with 'Dune.' "It's a real departure from hardware science fiction films because the focus is not on special effects but on ambience. He keeps your eye on the characters. Even the textures have the right mood; they're not the bright plastic, chrome and white jumpsuits you usually see. In the book, I was working on the idea of a feudal society, so Lynch looked at Renaissance and rococo art for the background, which suggests a feudal society to the audience." Herbert is delighted with Lynch's flair for finding the appropriate visual metaphor, but he is equally pleased with his thematic treatment of the story. "I know that the themes came out clearly because I hear people coming out of the theaters talking about them. It makes people question exactly what I wanted. "The main idea is an openness to change. We have to be able to deal with change because adaptability is the key to survival as a species. You have to adapt to new conditions or you are dead." Herbert is often called a futurist, and terms like "future think" are often applied to his writing, but Herbert is wary of being considered a visionary. "I do write future histories, which I think of as adventure fiction or technological fiction, but I don't think I have to put on the mantle of prescient futurist. The number of things we can't predict is astounding. It is the surprises we have to be able to deal with. When we get down to it, we are talking about technological changes in society and how we cope with them. "I'm interested in the things I read into history. For example, I think it's a dangerous misapprehension to think that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think that power attracts the corruptible. I also think that all bureaucracies become aristocracies. It's close to that now in our military, which is a dynasty where the powerful pass power to their children. My theories haven't changed (since "Dune" was written 20 years ago). In fact they have been borne out by history." The sixth in the "Dune" series, "Charterhouse: Dune," deals with "the evolutionary thrust of a society that has come out of 'Dune.' It's about a collision between two enormous forces, and if you want to draw a comparison between America and Russia, be my guest." Since Herbert acquired a word processor, he can turn our a book in about six to eight months. But "Dune" took six years of research before he even began writing. The idea for the novel began when Herbert, then a reporter who worked newspaper night shifts so he could write fiction during the day, was researching an article on the ecology of sand dunes. While flying over the desert in eastern Oregon he began to think about a desert planet. Herbert went to live in a desert in New Mexico and began reading about desert ecology. Soon he was immersed in research dealing with comparative religion, linguistics, political science and the psychology of mass movements. It all went into the writing of "Dune," and now, Herbert thinks it's all up there on the screen. "We wanted to challenge the viewer," Herbert said. "It's probable that people who haven't read the book will have to go back and see the movie again, or go back and read the book. In any event, you have to pay attention to the movie. Very close attention." Kirk Webb ..!seismo!hao!nbires!kwebb (USENET) NBI, Inc. Boulder, CO ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Jan 85 1057-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #18 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jan 85 1057-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #18 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 15 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Chandler & Duane (3 msgs) & Eddings & Schmitz (3 msgs) & Sucharitkul (4 msgs), Films - Worst SF Movie (2 msgs) & Bladerunner & A Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jan 85 21:27:25 EST From: Jon Subject: So Long, and here's my theories SPOILER WARNING-The following contains material related to the Douglas Adams book, So Long, And Thanks For All The Fish. Those who have not read the book may wish to skip this message. >1) What is the Earth doing back in existence? >2) Why don't Fenchurch's feet touch the ground? >3) Why did Arthur, Fenchurch and Wonko the Sane receive gray >crystal globes from the dolphins and why does Arthur's globe have >only half of the inscription, "So Long, and Thanks ..." >5) Is Marvin really dead? Any ideas? Well, here goes... 1) If you recall in the first book, those Hyper-Intelligent, Pan-Dimensional Beings that otherwise resembled mice were having the Earth Mark II made so they would know The Great Question (although we know it supposedly isn't possible to know the answer as well). Also, the mice must have known enough not to make another Arthur, being that they knew he survived the destruction. 2) I think that this could be related to the mice. They probably knew that someone had the answer, but had no clue as to who it was. By making Fenchurch float, perhaps she was flagged for easy identification by the mice? 3) Why, indeed? See below. 5) I certainly hope not! Throughout the series, Marvin has been my favorite character. I would hope that Adams doesn't have the heart to break up a winning team. What was he doing there, anyway? Obviously, Adams has something more planned. A recent entry into the digest about an Adams interview suggested that he was taking some time off, so I do not expect to see anything coming soon. I'm sure he has some ideas brewing on a back burner about the fifth book of the trilogy, so I'll be waiting with my peril sensitive sunglasses in the meantime. JOn arpa:RU-BLUE ------------------------------ From: ISM780!jeff@topaz Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 15 Jan 85 06:54:38 GMT > About two years ago, NPR broadcast a series of radio shows > that were based loosely on Douglas Adams' "Hitchhikers Guide > to the Galaxy". I had recorded the entire set of broadcasts, > but when we moved, we lost the box that contained my tapes!! You'll probably hear this from elsewhere, but the radio shows were the original medium for HHGttG. The books (you should always read the copyright page...) say something like "based on the BBC Radio programmes originally broadcast on ." Since they are BBC productions, the tapes are probably not available from NPR. ------------------------------ From: wlcrjs!rhesmith@topaz (Richard H. E. Smith II) Subject: Re: A. Bertram Chandler? Date: 10 Jan 85 02:22:57 GMT berry@zinfandel.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) writes: >Last time I looked at LOCUS (several months ago), it seemed A. >Bertram Chandler had suffered a stroke. Anyone know for sure the >state of his health (if any -- I hope he's not gone.)? Unfortunately, Chandler died a few months ago. If I remember right, there's a book still coming, but I can't remember just now if it was supposed to be SF or historical. I personally let my LOCUS subscription lapse, since I've been disappointed by the lack of coverage that Charlie Brown gives to fandom. S F CHRONICLE seems to cover the same ground better. Also, I got really tired of LOCUS's lousy book reviews. Of course, if you don't care about fandom, you could argue that LOCUS might serve you better... it's true that LOCUS has been winning Hugo Awards, but that's mostly because it has a bigger circulation. Of course, if you wanted the *fan* news, you'd subscribe to my gossip zine, UNCLE DICK'S, and not bother with all that sf-professional stuff. Dick Smith ..ihnp4!wlcrjs!rhesmith ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!shaddock@topaz (Mike Shaddock) Subject: Re: Two Questions Date: 11 Jan 85 14:57:04 GMT corwin@ut-ngp.UUCP (Corwin, Lord of Amber) writes: >In browsing the local bookstores yesterday, I came across a trade >book by Diane Duane called _The Door into Shadow_. The back says >this is the second book in the _Tales of the Five_ which appears to >be a five book set. Anyway, it seems that the book(s) have >everything: royal magic, Reaver Armies, Shadow, exiled princes, >elementals, a warrior Queen, a Great Sword, dragons, the Old Man >from Scene 23... you get the idea. Question: Has anyone read Book >One of this set? How is it? Anyone else seen this stuff? The first book is called "The Door into Fire" and came out at least four years ago. I thought that it was quite good, particularly for a first novel. The world that she describes has one of the more interesting moral/social structures that I've heard of. I think the "Tales of the Five" doesn't mean that there are five books, but that there are five major characters (although I can only think of four at the moment). Mike Shaddock {decvax,seismo}!mcnc!rti-sel!shaddock ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Barry Gold) Subject: Re: Door Into Shadow Date: 12 Jan 85 03:30:56 GMT DOOR INTO SHADOW is the sequel to DOOR INTO FIRE, which was at least as good. Apparently it's going to eventually develop into a five book series. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: uiucdcsb!mcdaniel@topaz Subject: Re: Two Questions Date: 14 Jan 85 06:43:00 GMT I've read _The Door Into {Fire,Shadow}_, and I recommend them highly. Truly excellent and unique (and unique is hard to get in fantasy nowadays!) ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1985 14:05 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: sue@mit-grape-nehi (Susan Felshin) Subject: Eddings' Belgariad Pawn of Prophecy--A pawn is someone who gets moved around without his control. In this case, Belgarion. Queen of Sorcery--A queen is a major piece, in this case refering to Polgara. Magician's Gambit--A gambit is a move where you deliberately sacrifice a piece or position in order to make a future gain. In this case, Ctuchik's letting Belgarath et al close enough to kill him on the assumption that they would bring Ce'Nedra with them. Castle of Wizardry--Belgarath's tower? This one isn't obvious. Enchanter's End Game--Belgarath finishing it up. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jan 85 23:04:59 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Witches of Karres I've read it! A wonderful book (I believe it's been reprinted recently, so everyone go out and buy it!) but, alas, I don't believe there was ever a sequel. The author of the book is James H. Schmitz, who also wrote a series of books about one Telzey Amberdon, a telepath. I read just the beginning of the first book (not that it was bad, I just never got to finish it), _The_Universe_ _Against_Her_, and found it quite good, though the style was more serious and altogether quite different from _Witches_. If anyone out there wants more detailed information, ask me and I can consult my friend who has all/most of his books. --Peter Alfke "Gabba Gabba Hey!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri 11 Jan 85 00:05:47-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: "Witches of Karres" WoK was written by James Schmitz, also well-known for his Trigger Argee and Telzey Amberdon stories. Unfortunately Mr. Schmitz is now dead and, as far as I know, he never wrote a sequel to WoK (but boy, I wish I was wrong about the sequel; I really would have liked to have seen one, WoK being one of my all-time favorite novels). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 10:45:42 EST From: Subject: "The Witches of Karres" "The Witches of Karres" was written by James H(enry) Schmitz. Originally, it was a novella in 'Analog', and was expanded to novel length in 1966, when it was published by Ace (possibly in the series edited by Terry Carr?). JHS is better known for the series of stories about Telzey Amberdon, the young female telepath with an affinity for animals who is recruited by the Psychology Service of the "Overgovernment" as an agent; this series included "The Universe Against Her", "The Lion Game", "The Telzey Toy" (short stories), and a few yet-uncollected shorts. Most, if not all, of these were originally published in 'Analog.' Set in the same universe are his stories of another agent, Trigger Argee. One thing which makes Schmitz' work extremely interesting is the fact that he's writing full-blown "space opera" -- a genre which tends to be rather hostile to women -- with female protagonists who are remarkably liberated and free of sexual role-playing cliches; this is doubly surprising, given that the books were written in the early sixties, and published in 'Analog.' --Dave Axler [Moderator's Note: Thanks to the following people who sent in the same or similar information: Dick Grantges (hound!rfg) Richard Draves (draves@harvard) Ray Chen (princeton!tilt!chenr) Douglas Walker (unc!walker@topaz) jmellby (jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay) Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] (quint@RU-BLUE) Gail B. Hanrahan (calmasd!gail@topaz) Bryan M. Kramer (utai!kramer@topaz) David L. Markowitz (...!ucbvax!{ucivax,trwrb}!csuf!dav) Cheryl Nemeth (calmasd!cjn@topaz) Ned Danieley (duke!ndd@topaz) ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 10:37:00 EST From: Subject: Sucharitkul Somtow Sucharitkul's nationality is Thai. His parents are currently the Thai ambassadors to Italy; Somtow tells me that every time they're about to be appointed to a similar job in the States, the government changes and they end up on the wrong side. He's a very funny and enjoyable person, who not only writes sf, but also commentary (e.g., his long-running column in "Fantasy Newsletter"). He's Oxbridge-educated in both classics and music, and does, indeed, compose modern classical material (some of which is the music referred to in his books). He also ghost-writes classical music for wealthy "patrons of the arts" who must remain nameless. The final book in the 'Inquestor' series was just announced in the new issue of Locus; it will be in hardback from a limited-edition house, and will have both a regular and a limited printing (150 copies on the latter). ------------------------------ From: ag4@pucc-h (Angus Greiswald the fourth) Subject: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul Date: 12 Jan 85 02:49:24 GMT And speaking of Somtow, I recall someone asking about a short story last fall which they had the plot to and wanted to know the title and author. The story involved the Earth being forced into a time loop which made everyone repeat the same day over and over again as a study project for a sort of inter-galactic elementary school. The only reprieve the people on Earth get is two free hours every day early in the morning. Talk about being stuck in a rut... Well, anyway, in case that someone is still wondering, I just recalled those details; it's: "Absent Thee from Felicity Awhile..." by, of course (ah, that's the connection!), Somtow Sucharitkul. Hope my answer didn't come too late! Jeff Lewis {decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz Subject: Re: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul Date: 11 Jan 85 02:49:00 GMT More on Sucharitkul: I believe he is Thai in origin. He does articles for what used to be called *Fantasy Newsletter* but is now something like *Fantasy and Science Fiction Book Review*, a very good review magazine published by the English department of one of the Florida universities. I read the first installment of *The Aquiliad* in *Analog(?)* and wasn't very impressed, but I've heard good things about *Mallworld* and plan to start *Vampire Junction* soon (I love the cover painting). The "S. P. Somtow" is designed to sell more books, since the general public, unlike(?) science fiction readers, apparently won't buy a book by someone whose name they can't pronounce. Saw him wandering through Philadelphia's bid party at LACon in some sort of Eastern garb, and he seemed a decent sort. Wombat "I am not, nor have I ever been, jan howard finder" ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 85 17:32:00 EST From: Subject: SOMTOW SUCHARITKUL I think he still lives in Alexandria, VA. He's of Thai origin. Has lived in Japan for a short while. Was a composer while in Bangkok. He's joked that his contemporary style of composition led to his departure from that city. (Apparently the ministry of culture wasn't stoked about Somtow's music.) well, their loss is our gain. the one and only! ------------------------------ From: ll1!cej@topaz (One of the Jones Boys) Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you remember ..." Date: 8 Jan 85 14:44:44 GMT > Does anyone remember these two movies : > > 2) Some astronauts are orbiting Mars and some previous > civilization on Mars brings them down to fix some sort of machine > that fools around with time. The Martians' faces were in pillars. It was called "The Wizard of Mars", and had to be the WORST s-f movie ever made, bar none. Those pillars were old chambers that all the Martians are in. The Marians had stopped time (locally), so they could live forever. They didn't like it. The "heros" couldn't leave till they fixed the machine that "was" time. (They never explain, but if the machine is broke, time is stopped. Fix the machine, and time runs again. It seems the Martians built the machine, then broke it to stop time!!) Why did I watch the worst s-f movie of all time? How else would I know how bad it was? Never lick a gift Chuck Jones horse in the mouth. ...mgnetp!ll1!cej ------------------------------ From: inmet!bloom@topaz Subject: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made Date: 15 Jan 85 08:13:01 GMT > It was called "The Wizard of Mars", and had to be the WORST > s-f movie ever made, bar none. And here all along I'd been thinking that the Worst S-F Movie Ever Made was "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" --- or does that not even make it into the realm of s-f? ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Movie/book combinations - Bladerunner Date: 11 Jan 85 19:06:23 GMT Why do I never get tired of seeing this movie over, and over, and over, and ov....? It doesn't even closely parallel the book. "It's the thought, if any, that counts." Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 85 09:07:49 PST From: Henry Sampson Subject: Rare Sci fi Movie I am trying to locate a print of a rare sci fi movie made in l940 entitled SON OF INGAGI featuring an all-black cast and written by Spencer Williams (Andy of the Amos and Andy TV show). Henry Sampson ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Jan 85 1134-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #19 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jan 85 1134-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #19 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 16 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: Books - Bellairs (2 msgs) & Goulart & Leiber & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Zelazny (6 msgs), Television - Starlost (4 msgs) & Space: 1999 (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gitpyr!dts@topaz (Danny Sharpe) Subject: Re: John Bellairs Date: 11 Jan 85 15:31:03 GMT rmorgan@tikal.UUCP writes: >Several years ago I ran across a surprising little book called >_The_Face_in_the_Frost_, by John Bellairs. Has anyone seen, know >of, or better, read any other books by the same author? I enjoyed _The_Face_in_the_Frost_ so much that when I found a copy of _The_Pedant_and_the_Shuffly_ in a used book store I bought it without question. It's like a road runner cartoon in print. A tad lacking in plot, which made it get kind of tiresome, but it has some neat word play. -- Either Argle-Bargle IV or someone else. -- Danny Sharpe School of ICS Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Date: 14 Jan 85 14:15:08 PST (Mon) Subject: John Bellairs' books You left out "The Treasure of Alphaeus Winterbottom" which is a prequel to "The Dark Secret of Weatherend"; I suspect that these two comprise the first books of the other trilogy you mention, although I haven't seen anything indicating that another book would be out dealing with the same characters as the Winterbottom/Weatherend books. All three series are children's books--try the local children's book store or library section (I have a standing agreement with the children's librarian at Santa Monica to give me any new Bellairs as soon as it clears new book processing). If you started with the "Face in the Frost", though, be prepared to be less impressed with the children's books. They lack the intense whackiness of "Face", and also its terror. But they have a strong sense of small town nostalgia that reminds me of Bradbury's "Something Wicked This Way Comes" and August Derleth's children's novels; I like them. As for "St. Fidgeta" and "The Pedant...", my friends have found copies at out-of-the-way Catholic books stores. christe@rand-unix ------------------------------ From: smu!mcdonald@topaz Subject: Re: addition to SF-LOVERS...ARPA Date: 11 Jan 85 04:27:00 GMT Yes. Read Ron Goulart. He is hilarious (if sometimes a bit darkly so). I don't mean that it's heavy -- far from it; but a great deal of the humor derives from things falling apart. Malfunctioning robot secret agents. Hack romance writers who moonlight for the post-Holocaust CIA. Editors who have been transformed into apes. Just pick one at random. McD ------------------------------ From: mhuxt!js2j@topaz (sonntag) Subject: Someone has apparently pirated "Conjure Wife" by Fritz Leiber Date: 14 Jan 85 22:01:07 GMT While vegetating early one Saturday afternoon, I found on the tube a movie which I think they had titled: "Witches Brew". It was the second movie I've seen based on Fritz Leiber's "Conjure Wife". I checked out the credits at the end of the movie thoroughly, and while they listed a couple of 'writers', they gave Fritz absolutely no credit. How can they get away with this? In case some of you haven't seen this book (WARNING: SEMI-SPOILER APPROACHING!!), it's about an anthropology professor who accidently discovers something which ALL women have been keeping secret from men since the dawn of time: they're all witches. Once you've gotten over accepting this improbable premise (I was trained in this at an early age.), it's a good read, about as good as most of Fritz's stuff. -- Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j "Aye, Captain, and at warp 11 we're going nowhere mighty fast!" ------------------------------ From: smu!mcdonald@topaz Subject: Wolfe Date: 11 Jan 85 04:15:00 GMT Wolfe's newest book is _Live_Free_Live_. It was advertised incorrectly as _Love_Free_Love_. All I really know about it is that the title comes from a classified ad offering free rent and that every time he explains what it's about he says something completely different. It sounds excellent but I'm going to have to wait for the paperback. McD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 10:37:00 EST From: Subject: Wolfe The new Gene Wolfe book is titled "Free Live Free." It, too, is a limited edition (750 copies, illustrated ((profusely)), $45.00, around 600 pp.) from Mark Ziesing, up in Willimantic, CT. According to the Locus reviewer, it's a lot closer to mainstream fiction than most of Wolfe's works, but is still an excellent book. ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!shaddock@topaz (Mike Shaddock) Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ? Date: 11 Jan 85 14:16:32 GMT kupfer@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike Kupfer) writes: >I assume that Zelazny first wrote "The Changing Land" and then >decided that Dilvish was an interesting enough character that he >wrote "Dilvish, the Damned" (which I haven't read yet). Does >anyone know if the same thing (chronology in story is the opposite >of publication order) happens with "To Die in Italbar" and "Isle of >the Dead"? (Actually, it's not even clear to me which of those 2 >stories is supposed to happen first.) As I understand it, the stories in "Dilvish, the Damned" appeared in various magazines during the 60's and 70's. Zelazny wrote "The Changing Land" as a finale, and apparently decided to publish an anthology of all of the other Dilvish stories when "The Changing Land" did reasonably well. On a different track, does anybody know if Zelazny is going to write any more Amber novels? I heard a rumor on the net about a year ago that he had contracted to write 3 more and that the first would be out in October, but I haven't seen it yet. Mike Shaddock {decvax,seismo}!mcnc!rti-sel!shaddock ------------------------------ Date: Sat 12 Jan 85 14:42:51-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #16 As a devoted Zelazny fan I must reply to recent comments about Dilvish. First, DILVISH THE DAMNED is a collection of pre-CHANGING LAND stories. I don't see why an author has to give you a complete glossary and gazetteer to a fictional universe. As long as he knows what is happening, according to a thesis by Tolkien, the world he is describing will seem real enough. (I don't recall the term Tolkien used to describe the flavor of realism got by placing a story in a well-thought-out setting--do any of you?). Everyone sneers at stories where the main character encounters an amnesiac who has to have the world explained to him; perhaps many readers are too used to such ploys. I for one did not think that the CHANGING LAND was insufficiently described, though I too would like to see more informaton about the world, perhaps in more stories or novels. I don't claim that the Dilvish stories are great or enduring, but I like them, and I think Zelazny knows more about his world than he is letting on. For example, it is fairly clear that Steven Brust knows a hell of a lot more about his JHEREG world than is given in JHEREG and YENDI. In contrast, it didn't seem to me that Sheri Tepper knew all that much about her world that wasn't put in print in her recent trilogy. I don't see how anyone can compare Dilvish unfavorably to Elric as a character. Face it, Elric was an idiot; his "tragic flaw" was so immense as to put Hamlet's to shame. At least Dilvish has a fairly good idea what he is doing, where Elric is being dragged around by his sword into killing everyone he meets and forgiving his deadly enemies every chance he gets. Merely because you want to know more about a world than is given in a given story is no grounds for condemning it--any good author will leave room for expansion. It may be that Zelazny has here fallen prey to the insidious trap of not making each book able to stand on its own, but I don't think so. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Mon 14 Jan 85 12:05:42-PST From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: _Changing Land_ and _Dilvish, the Damned_ Doesn't anyone but me ever read the back of the title page, to see when various parts of books were published? I don't have DtD in front of me at the moment, but as I recall, those short stories were written over a span of a decade or so, starting in the early to middle 60s. Rich Alderson ------------------------------ Date: Mon 14 Jan 85 18:08:52-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: Cryptic Zelazney For an explanation of why he always leaves off explicit explanation of so many of the details, see the introduction in _The_Last_Defender_ _of_Camelot (which is one of his better collections, if you haven't read it). ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1985 14:08 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: kupfer@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike Kupfer) Subject: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ? Actually, "Dilvish, The Damned" is a collection of Dilvish stories that Zelazny had written over several years. The individual stories were mostly (or perhaps all) published before "Changing Land". ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1985 13:48 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: mhuxt!js2j@topaz (sonntag) Subject: Where has Zelazney gone? Zelazny is supposedly writing some more Amber books (3 I think). ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!rick@topaz (the absurdist) Subject: Re: STAR-LOST Date: 13 Jan 85 01:57:54 GMT derek@uwvax.UUCP (Derek Zahn) writes: >Is this that same television show that Harlan Ellison was talked >into writing for in Canada... Yes. >If so, I would like to see some of it, for he gives a rather >humorous account of the fiasco as part his book, "Stalking the >Nightmare," or something like that. The show is too bad even to be worth seeing for camp value. The production of the TV show (as opposed to the subject of the TV show) has also been satirized by Ben Bova, in "The StarCrossed." After reading it, one can only assume that Bova didn't get sued for libel by those involved because of the fear that a court would rule that they were indeed as idiotic as they are portrayed in the novel. -- "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less" -- Humpty Dumpty, the noted linguist Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 85 13:24:37 EST From: Ed Subject: Starlost series. Hmmm... I vaguely recall the Starlost series around here (wasn't it on Sunday nights on NBC?) Funny that it should come up now - if I remember, Keir Dullea was one of the main characters (what, with 2001/2010 and all...) -Ed Blanchett "My God, it's full of stars!!!" ------------------------------ From: watrose!vljohnson@topaz (Lee Johnson) Subject: Re: STAR-LOST Date: 12 Jan 85 04:43:27 GMT I liked "The Starlost" too. As I recall, the original story upon which it was based, "Phoenix Without Ashes", was written by Harlan Ellison. I vaguely remember reading that Ellison was *not* happy about the way the TV production was carried off--so much so that he withdrew his name from the credits and substituted the pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird". I think the show was a Canadian production (Glen-Warren Productions). Robin Ward, who played Garth, could more recently be seen in various commercials. As for Keir Dullea (Devon), you can see him in 2010. I have no idea what happened to the actress who played Rachael. Regards, Lee Johnson ------------------------------ From: wateng!padpowell@topaz (PAD Powell) Subject: Re: STAR-LOST Date: 14 Jan 85 14:42:46 GMT rick@uwmacc.UUCP (Rick Keir) writes: > The show is too bad even to be worth seeing for camp value. >The production of the TV show (as opposed to the subject of the TV >show) has also been satirized by Ben Bova, in "The StarCrossed." >After reading it, one can only assume that Bova didn't get sued for >libel by those involved because of the fear that a court would rule >that they were indeed as idiotic as they are portrayed in the >novel. I have been involved with CBC, and other production companies, and when I read the book, I just about died laughing. Even the CBC exec's who read the book enjoyed it. I think even Harlan ("The Teeth That Talk, The Jaws That Froth") Ellison enjoyed it. At least we can laugh at ourselves... Patrick ("Artistic Merit? Didn't he used to work for Children's Television Workshop?") Powell ------------------------------ From: voder!kevin@topaz (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: Space: 1999 Date: 12 Jan 85 01:44:55 GMT > Space: 1999 wasn't really that bad. I actually enjoyed some of the > programs. > Cheryl Nemeth No it wasn't, of course there was nothing else on at the time. Unfortunately, what I thought was the best of all their episodes was the one I think was entitled 'War Games' in which Moonbase Alpha gets attacked by what appears to be an earth attack fleet and gets totally wiped out. They then wake up and find it's all a dream being caused by the planet they're approaching. Loads of special effects. The only thing I really had a hard time with, other than the fact the moon must have been traveling at hyper-speed or falling into space warps right and left) was the alien women character in the second season who could change her shape into anything. I can't remember her name (something like Myra) but she was played by Catherine Schnell. I just cannot accept that a 110-120 pound person can change into a 200lb panther and then into an insect! Something about conservation of mass and energy. If mass and energy are truly the same then a 300lb monster would have no energy left and a tiny fly would have so much it probably couldn't contain it. I did like the designs of the Eagle Transporters and the Hawk attack ships, I thought they looked quite realistic and the concept of the cargo modules made sense, although you probably had to be careful about fancy maneuvers if you weren't carrying a cargo section as it must have strengthened the entire framework. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin "It's sort of a threat, you see. I've never been very good at them myself but I'm told they can be very effective." ------------------------------ From: alice!alb@topaz (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: Space: 1999 Date: 13 Jan 85 16:21:57 GMT The alien woman you refer to was named ''Mia'' (maybe it was spelled Mya, I dunno, but it was pronounced ''Mie-ya''). I seem to recall an episode in the second season, when they made a brief reference to picking her up from some doomed planet (maybe it was a doomed society; I remember her father (i.e. alien father) was in it and wasn't such a good guy), in which they said her mass was conserved during all transformation; thus, if she became an insect, she was a VERY dense one, and if a panther, a very undense (undense?) one. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Jan 85 1008-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #20 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jan 85 1008-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #20 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 17 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 20 Today's Topics: Films - Upcoming SF/Fantasy films (2 msgs) & The Wizard of Mars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz Subject: Upcoming SF/Fantasy films (very long) Date: 13 Jan 85 21:14:28 GMT The LA Times Calendar section for this Sunday features their annual listing of upcoming films. They list ~250 films to be released in the next year. I have here culled out those that, from the brief descriptions, appear to be fantasy/SF films. In a few case, I have included my own comments, in brackets. The releasing studio is in parenthesis at the end of the blurb. I have included horror films which have fantasy/sf elements. Winter "The Company of Wolves" Angela Lansbury and David Warner are featured in this adult adaptation of "Little Red Riding Hood". [This was one of the best films I saw at Filmex, the LA film festival, over the summer. Very good.] (Cannon) "Creator" Peter O'Toole is Harry Wolper, an eccentric Nobel Laureate biologist preoccupied with creating a copy of his wife, who died 30 years ago. Mariel Hemingway and Vincent Spano help him discover that life is in the present, not the past. Directed by Ivan Passer.(Universal) "Perils of Gwendolline" Fantasy adventure about a colorful heroine and a reluctant hero. Stars Tawny Kitane. (Goldwyn) [Sounds cheap, but Goldwyn usually only releases prestige films (we're not talking MGM here, but a small producing company), so it might be OK.] "The School Spirit" A comedy concerning a ghost-like jock who hovers around a high school campus. (Almi) "Superstition" An abandoned mansion is the site of unearthly terror. (Almi) "Titan Find" Klaus Kinski leads a team of astronauts who inadvertantly unleash a deadly alien force in the form of a horrifying 200,000 year old creature on Titan, Saturn's largest moon. [Sounds vaguely familiar, doesn't it?] Spring "The Adventure of Hercules" Hercules (Lou Ferrigno) muscles his way into a war between the gods to save Earth from certain destruction. [Considering the last Hercules picture with Ferrigno, this will probably be a real dog.] (Cannon) "Baby" William Katt, Sean Young, and Patrick McGoohan star in an adventure saga of a young couple who discover a family of dinosaurs while on an expedition in Africa. Directed by B.W.L. Norton. [No, I never heard of him or her either. Any bets that McGoohan plays either a). a kindly or not so kindly elder scientist, or b). a big game hunter?] (Disney) "B.C. Rock" Animated feature set in prehistoric times with music by Hall and Oates, Leo Sayer, and Rick Wakeman [Perhaps polishing up bits and pieces of his "Journey to the Center of the Earth".] (Almi) [Anyone know who these Almi guys are? Sounds Italian, and so does their release schedule.] "Brazil" Monty Python's Terry Gilliam directs this "comedic nightmare" about a bureaucratic state where, among other concerns, a character named Tuttle (Robert De Niro) has his freedom saved because a beetle falls into a computer. Also stars Python cohort Michael Palin and Jonathen Pryce. [The latter is the real star. De Niro's part is apparently little more than a cameo. Pryce, who is very up and coming in the world of British theater/film/television, is best known to American audiences as Mr. Dark in "Something Wicked This Way Comes".] (Universal) "Defcon 4" Three astronauts return to a world ravaged by nuclear war and must fend off crazed survivors as they confront a new and terrifying reality. (New World) [Which means it will be cheap, but not necessarily bad.] "Exterminators of the Year 3000" Action-adventure about the battle between a "Road Warrior" type hero and nuclear mutants. (New Line) "Ladyhawke" Rutger Hauer, Matthew Broderick, and Michell Pfeiffer are featured in Richard Donner's exploration of the magical side of the Dark Ages. [The coming attractions look good.] (Warner Bros.) "The Last Dragon" Music, dance, and martial arts mix it up in this Motown production of an urban fairy tale set in New York City. [Maybe not a fantasy film.] (Tri-Star) "The Lift" It's best to use the stairs in this Dutch-made horror film about an elevator gone awry. (Island Alive) [Which doesn't usually release cheap schlock] "The Noah's Ark Principle" A scientist in an orbitting U.S. weather station is ordered by the government to divert attention from American soldiers trapped fighting a war in the Middle East. [By broadcasting Arabic erotica instead of weather forecasts, perhaps?] (MGM/UA) "Primal Urge" When an anthropology student is transported back in time 25,000 years, he dinds that prehistoric man is only half as interesting as prehistoric woman. (Crown) "When the Rain Begins to Fall" The multifaceted Pia Zadora stars in a spoof of beach movies, science fiction and rock 'n' roll where six inch aliens grow to full height after being removed from refrigeration. Originally titled "Voyage of the Rock Aliens". Directed by James Fargo. "Yellow Hair and the Fortress of Gold" A female Indian Jones type (Laurene Landon) sets off to find an ancient Mayan fortune. (Crown) "Zombie Island Massacre" It's no quiet holiday when jet-set tourists discover a voodoo ceremony on an island paradise. Rita Jenrette (ex-wife of ex-Congressman John Genrette) heads the cast. [Sleazy to the max, no doubt.] (Troma) Early Summer "Back to the Future" Steven Speilberg produces the story of a teenager who travels in time. Directed by Robert Zemeckis ("Romancing the Stone"), starring Eric Stolz, Christopher LLoyd, Lea Thompson, and Crispin Glover. (Universal) "The Black Cauldron" Based on Lloyd Alexander's award winning series of books, this epic (and costly: $25 million and 10 years in the making) Disney animated production chronicles the struggle to gain possession of a mysterious force capable of producing an army of deathless warriors. With an original score by Elmer Bernstein. (Disney) (Erroneously reported in last week's Calendar as opening in 1986.) [Word from those who have seen clips is very good indeed. The animation is supposed to be superb. Some hints of inappropriate comic relief have snuck out. The main villains are apparently scary enough that Disney expects a PG rating, its first on an animated film.] "The Bride" The Police's Sting stars as Baron Henry von Frankenstein, a brilliant scientist who creates a beautiful female bride ("Flashdance's" Jennifer Beals) for his well-known creature. The baron decides, however, to keep the girl for himself. Directed by Franc Roddam ("Quadrophenia"). (Columbia) "Goonies" Steven Spielberg's production involves a group of kids who find themselves on a comical and magical adventure. With Ke Huy Quan, last seen as Harrison Ford's sidekick in "Indian Jones and the Temple of Doom". Directed by Richard Donner. (Warner Bros.) "Life Force" The original title of this film, "Space Vampires", speaks best for the story. Stars "The Stunt Man's" Steve Railsback. Directed by Tobe Hooper ("Poltergeist"). (Tri-Star) "Nuke 'Em High" Toxic waste seeps into the water supply of a high school, creating school daze, so to speak, and unleashing a monster on campus. Richard Haines ("Splatter University" directs. (Troma) "Red Sonja" Sonja is the female version of Conan the Barbarian. Stars Arnold Schwarzenegger (not playing Conan), Sandahl Bergman (another "Conan" alumnus) and Brigette Nielson in the title role. Directed by Richard Fleischer ("Conan the Destroyer"). (MGM/UA) "Return to Oz" Dorothy Gale (newcomer Fairuza Balk) revisits the enchanted land of Oz to rescue the Scarecrow, the Tin Man, and the Cowardly Lion from the Nome King who has destroyed the Emerald City. With Nicol Williamson, Piper Laurie, and Jean Marsh. Written and directed by Walter Murch, with uncredited assistance from George Lucas and Steven Speilberg. (Disney) "Starchaser: the Legend of Orin" An animated 3-D film about a good boy and his space-age battles with an evil villain. [Sounds Japanese] (Atlantic) "Teen Wolf" A horror-spoof comedy about a popular high school boy who suddenly finds out that he's a werewolf. (Atlantic) "Thunder Women" The year is 2890, and savage Amazons rule the post- apocolyptic wastelands of Colorado. Two men escape from their female enslavers, and before you know it, there is equality between the sexes. Late Summer "Cocoon" A group of elderly humans meet up with some young aliens who have come to earth on a mission of mercy. Stars Steve Guttenberg, Maureen Stapleton, and Jessica Tandy. Directed by Ron Howard. (Fox) "Explorers" Joe Dante ("Gremlins") directs the story of three 13-year-old boys who create a spacecraft from spare parts found in a junkyard. [Special makeup effects expert Rob Bottin is working on this film, so it sounds like the kids will succeed in taking off.] (Paramount) "Fright Night" A 16-year-old boy, unable to persuade others that his debonair neighbor is really a murderous vampire, turns to the host of a TV horror show for help. (Columbia) "The Heavenly Kid" Eighteen years after being killed in a car accident, a teen-ager comes back as an angel to give another teen-ager a sense of self-worth. (Orion) "Legend" Director Ridley Scott's first film since "Blade Runner" stars Tom Cruise as hermit Jack o' the Green. The story follows the mythical adventures of Jack and a host of goblins, faeries, elves, pixies, leprechauns, and unicorns. (Universal) "My Science Project" A fantasy-adventure about a teen-ager whose desperate search for something to turn in as his science project results in a discovery so extraordinary that his entire high school campus crashes through new frontiers of science into a new dimension that no one ever knew existed. (Disney) [Disney is going in very heavy for fantasy and sf this year.] "Road Warrior II" Mel Gibson is back for another go-round in the post- apocolyptic future as Max finds a band of children living in a crack in the Earth. George Miller, who made the original, co-directs. Tina Turner co-stars. [I don't like the sound of this "co-direction" business...] (Warner Bros.) "The Stuff" The ice cream industry is in for a sudden thaw when "The Stuff" becomes the food craze of the year. But "The Stuff" turns out to be shockingly worse for you than ice cream: it's an all-consuming parasite. (New World) "Weird Science" A teen-aged version of the "Frankenstein" story, with a pair of awakening computer wizards creating their own very luscious monster - played by model Kelly Le Brock. Directed by John Hughs ("Mr. Mom") and starring Anthony Michael Hall and Ilan Michael-Smith. [ A fairly blantant attempt to rip off "The Bride".] (Universal) "The Clan of the Cave Bear" Daryl Hannah stars in the film adaptation of Jean Auel's best- selling book. Hannah is Ayla, an orphaned Cro Magnon woman, who collides with lesser Neanderthals. Written by John Sayles ("Baby It's You"), directed by Michael Chapman ("All the Right Moves"). (Warner Bros.) "Free Spirit" Glenn Close, Mandy Patinkin and Ruth Gordon star in a story of a movie flapper of the 1920s who returns from the dead and saves a marriage in crisis. (Orion) "Return of the Living Dead" Not to be confused with George Romero's opuses. Corpses come to life to seek the brains of living humans in this campy horror film. With Clu Gulager. Screenwriter Dan O'Bannon ("Alien") makes his directorial debut. (Orion) Christmas "Enemy Mine" "Das Boot's" Wolfgang Petersen directs this tale of two enemy space pilots - one human (Dennis Quaid), the other not (Lou Gosset, Jr.)- as they fight and learn to respect each other in a distant galaxy. (Fox) "Santa Claus - The Movie" Santa (David Huddleston) must save his activist elf (Dudley Moore) from a greedy toy tycoon (John Lithgow) in this modern day adventure. Jeannot Szwarc directs this reported $50 million venture by "Superman's" Ilya and Alexander Salkind, making it the most expensive film of 1985 - so far. [My bet is that Santa saves Moore from Lithgow, but that no one can save the movie from Szwarc. $50 million down the tubes, and I'm glad I'm not one of the Salkind's investors on this one.] (Tri-Star) No Release Date announced "Frog Dreaming" "E.T.'s" Henry Thomas stars in a mystery adventure about a boy whose father is killed in Vietnam. [Mark Leeper says that Variety listed this as a fantasy film.] "Radioactive Dreams" Two young men emerge from a bomb shelter after spending 20 years reading pulp novels, then dodge disco and surfer mutants as they search for the keys necessary to launch the last MX missile. [Sound like real fun guys.] Very tentative stuff "The Navigator" directed by John Avildsen ("The Karate Kid"), about a 15-year-old Rip Van Winkle who tries to pilot a flying saucer back in time. (Disney) "Poltergeist II" Starring JoBeth Williams with special effects by Richard Edlund ("2010"). (MGM/UA) "Star Trek IV" (Paramount) "Silver Bullet" From a Stephen King story. (Paramount) Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: Upcoming SF/Fantasy films (very long) Date: 15 Jan 85 20:21:02 GMT reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP writes: >"Perils of Gwendolline" > Fantasy adventure about a colorful heroine and a reluctant >hero. Stars Tawny Kitane. (Goldwyn) [Sounds cheap, but Goldwyn >usually only releases prestige films (we're not talking MGM here, >but a small producing company), so it might be OK.] I wonder if this is related to the rather kinky 'comic strip' Perils of Gwendoline, in which Gwendoline seems to spend most of her time being tied up in weird restraints while wearing scanty garments? >"The Black Cauldron" >Some hints of inappropriate comic relief have snuck out. Why inappropriate? The book is full of comic relief. It's one of the things that makes it so good! I recommend it (and the others in the series) to any lover of fine fantasy. "The universe is not user-friendly." -- Kelvin Throop Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 85 13:53:55 EST From: Jon Subject: Movie inquiry reply >2) Some astronauts are orbiting Mars and some previous civilization > on Mars brings them down to fix some sort of machine that fools > around with time. The Martians' faces were in pillars. The movie you are thinking of is The Wizard of Mars. I don't know any particulars about the actual production, but I do remember that the astronauts were indeed brought down by the Martians. The Martians were more or less in purgatory, being that they had tinkered with time. The characters -get this- found the Martians by following a yellow brick road. Really. When they got there, I remember the people finding a clock with a pendulum stuck in one position. After telepathically conversing with one of the Martians in suspension, they found a crystal that they placed somewhere in the clock mechanism, and the pendulum (read clock) started working, and natural decay caused the place to fall into ruin. The story ends up with the astronauts back in orbit before the whole thing happened, but they remember it all. Not bad for a cheesy film. JOn arpa:trudel@ru-blue "obviously, this guy has a lot of free(?) time on his hands" ps-when are we going to see reviews of those classics that are in the theatres for only a week? Recent ones include Ice Pirates, Metalstorm (in 3-d no less), and Conquest. Someone must go to these films, because I'm not the only one there... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jan 85 1030-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #21 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 18 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 21 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Limited Editions & Female Protaganists & Story Request & Story Request Answered, Films - The Dark Cauldron (2 msgs) & Movie Request & Worst SF Movie Made (4 msgs) & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Interactive Fiction & Boskonians on the Net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jan 1985 11:23 EST From: ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide/Plot theories Some people may find what follows a spoiler. Others may find it incomprehensible. I don't have any of the books right here, but I seem to remember that the mice decided to abort the Earth Mark II ("Thank you, Slartibartfast, that will be all...") when they discovered Arthur was alive. It might be the dolphins who are behind the Earth's continued existence ("The Committee to Save the Humans" or some such, wasn't it?). The inscribed crystal bowl: Arthur has half of the entire inscription, Fenchurch the other half. Wonko has the complete text. There is no doubt some connection here, besides the one between Fenchurch and Arthur. The radio series (which, by the way, WGBH-Boston will be rebroadcasting shortly) is quite close to the books in some ways; it is close to the records in some ways; it is unique in some ways (I didn't see the TV adaptation.) Lintilla and the Frog Star didn't appear in the books; Krikkit and the flying cocktail party didn't turn up on the radio shows. Lastly: One thing that struck me as I listened to a couple of my tapes of the radio...Adams continually hints that Arthur has no more idea of what is in store for him than a tea-leaf has of the history of the East India Company (paraphrasing). What is in store for him? I think he becomes the "later, wilier editor" of the Guide referred to several times... A. M. eliz Chicago: N. The foul-smelling wind that precedes a subway train. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 17 Jan 85 11:14:44-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: New Limited Editions On Collecting Limited Edition Speciality Publisher Books. This is a difficult topic to discuss because there is no good answer to the question "Why do publishers print and people buy books that cost $50 to $100 when the same words could be printed in a three dollar paperback". This question is very similar to "Why do people pay one hundred dollars a bottle for wine when a three dollar bottle will get you just as drunk," or "why do people pay over $100,000 for a Rolls Royce", or " why do people pay over $10,000 for a wrist watch". The oldest collectable publisher still around is Arkham House, Inc. PO Box 546 Sauk City, WI 53583 They publish well made hardcover books, primarily horror. The press started in 1939 to publish Lovecraft in hardcover, five of the books are continuously reprinted and always available. No recent signed and numbered editions. Their latest book was `Who Made Stevie Crye?' by Michael Bishop $15.95, about a demon possessed daisy wheel typewriter. Donald M. Grant, Publisher, Inc. West Kingston, RI 02892 Is most famous for their special edition of the `Talisman' by King and Straub, $120 signed. This was two volumes in slipcase, with color illustrations from a number of artists. Most of their books are $15 to $50, signed by both author and artist. Examples are `Daughter of Regals' $50. and `The Adventures of Samurai Cat' $50.00 and $20.00 Cheap Street Route 2, Box 293 New Castle, Virginia 24127 does very beautiful books on handmade paper, printed by hand on hand set type. The books are very small, about 70 to 80 pages. There are two series, both available to subscribers. Subscribers must buy every book or drop out. The Publisher's Edition is usually hand bound in quarter Niger goat leather with a slip case at about $190 non subscriber, $150 for subscriber. The Collector's Edition is cloth and sometimes a slipcase for $70 non, $57 subscriber. Their most recent book was `Were-Wrath' by Andre Norton. Coming are a new Thomas Disch, Gregory Benford, and Anne McCaffrey. The books are illustrated with line art. Underwood-Miller 651 Chestnut Street Columbia, PA 17512 does both signed and numbered first editions of trade books, and hardcover reprints of famous writers' books, primarily Jack Vance. Most of the reprints are first hardcover. Prices range from $35.00 to $60.00 for the signed and numbered books to $13.95 to $15.95 for unsigned editions. In their new catalog is `The Green Pearl' (Lyonesse II) by Jack Vance, signed at $60.00, `Sailing to Byzantium' by Robert Silverberg $35.00 signed, $12.95. `The Blue Rose' by Peter Straub signed $35.00. Three reprinted gothics by Anne McCaffrey $25.00 each signed, $13.95, and `Moreta:' $35.00 signed. They have over 50 titles still available, primarily unsigned. Phantasia Press 13101 Lincoln St. Huntington Woods, MI 48070 does mostly first editions, either signed hardcover before a regular hardcover trade, or both signed and trade hardcover for a regular paperback. They sometimes do hardcover reprints. They did signed first editions of `2010', `Robots of Dawn', `Gods of Riverworld', `Dream Park', `Oath of Fealty', and `Firestarter'. Prices are $35.00 to $60.00. Their last two books were in both signed and trade editions, `Moment of the Magician' (Spellsinger 4) by Alan Dean Foster $40.00 and $17.00 and `Chanur's Venture' by C. J. Cherryh $40.00 and $17.00 The signed editions come in slipcases. All books have new artwork for the dust jackets by such as Whelan, Rowena, etc. There are other small presses, and more pop up all the time, such as Philtrum Press with their beautiful `The Eyes of the Dragon' by King ($120.00). The book is 13 inches by 8 inches with wonderful woodcut like illustrations by Kenneth R. Linkhauser. General Notes: 1. Subscribe to Locus to get announcements of new small press books. 2. If you want a signed and limited edition of a book, send your money or send for information IMMEDIATELY. The books frequently sell out very quickly. 3. Most of the publishers have catalogs or mailing list. Sorry this is so long, but it is still rather incomplete. Randy Neff NEFF@SU-SIERRA `A good book should feel good!' ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 15 Jan 1985 11:18:34-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: female protaganists Try Janet Morris' books on Estri's adventures. The first book in the series is "High Couch of Silistra". I believe there are four books in the series. These aren't like her other books, at least the first two aren't. (Towards the end of the third book she really gets into the "god" wars and things get a little out of hand.) Estri is the main character throughout the books (and a heroin, I might add). (As you probably noticed, I'm sort of partial to Estri.) For those that absolutely cannot stand fantasy, I wouldn't recommend the series, but to those with an open mind they are delightful. Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1985 1809 PST From: Alvin Wong Subject: Here is the plot. What is the title and author? A friend of mine here is looking for a short story that was published in Analog some time ago. He doesn't know the title or author but has described the main gist of the plot to me which follows : The main character repeatly gets drunk and suffers from blackouts. During his blackout periods he manages to invent machines. When he recovers from these blackouts he doesn't remember inventing the machines and spends his sober periods trying to find out what they do. All the machines serve some useful purpose and sometimes the inventor almost kills himself while trying to discover it. He also makes acquaintances during his blackouts and doesn't remember them either when sober. There is some comic relief as the main character pretends he remembers everything. Any suggestions and/or pointers would be welcomed. ------------------------------ From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Subject: Re: Here is the plot. What is the title and author? Date: 16 Jan 85 04:44:31 GMT This is one of the Gallagher stories by Henry Kuttner. They were collected in a book called The Proud Robot. (The robot started out as a bottle opener, he thinks. He hasn't found a use for it and it just stares at itself in mirrors and complains about the ugly humans.) These stories are fun reading. Gallagher has this habit of making promises when he's drunk that he has to face up to when sober, while putting on the pretense of knowing exactly what his clients want. He spends great amounts of time just trying to find out *what* he promised to build. And of course, there are the things that just show up in his lab that seem to have no useful purpose in life.... -Dragon UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: The Dark Cauldron Date: 14 Jan 85 17:48:39 GMT Does anyone know anything about this one? I read the books by Lloyd Alexander and loved them. Is this an adaptation of the entire series or just "The Black Cauldron" (or more likely "The Book of Three")? Cheryl Nemeth All opinions expressed in this article are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Calma Company or my cats. "Life is a series of rude awakenings" R. V. Winkle [Robert Asprin] ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui Q. Koala) Subject: Re: The Dark Cauldron Date: 16 Jan 85 21:28:58 GMT >Does anyone know anything about this one? I read the books by Lloyd >Alexander and loved them. Is this an adaptation of the entire >series or just "The Black Cauldron" (or more likely "The Book of >Three")? The latest I've heard is summer 1985 release. Finally. By what is left of Disney studios. People I've talked to who have seen the work being done with it and know the technical issues of animation are praying for an earthquake or other act of God will destroy the negatives and prints, because there simply isn't talent of the quality needed to do Black Cauldron properly. It was a project of Walt's and Don Bluth's that is one of the most complicated and difficult pieces of animation ever attempted, and the bozo's who are stuck at Disney studio's have trouble drawing their way out of a paper bag. Not that I'm biased, or anything, but Bakshi has a better chance of doing Black Cauldron right than Disney does. Walt would be the first to burn that negative based on what I've heard and seen; of course, he is dead so expect it to be released and flop at least as well as 'Fox and the Hound' or 'Black Hole', two of the more illustrious pieces of film to come out of Disney in the last few years... chuq From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach {allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA Do not wait until tomorrow to tell someone you care. Tomorrow doesn't always come. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 17 Jan 1985 06:07:15-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) Subject: movie request I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The Adolescence of P1". Does anyone know anything about it? The book was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the net and eventually attains consciousness. It was unusually accurate for this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames". John Redford ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 85 23:00:11 PST (Wed) To: inmet!bloom@topaz Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made From: Jim Hester "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" was bad only in the sense of groaning at puns, etc. It was intended as a comedy from the start. "The Wizard of Mars" had no intentional laughs, and was thoroughly lousey all the way through. I particularly recall the air "tanks" they wore. They were supposed to be dual tanks, much like a set of scuba tanks, but they were too cheap to get the tanks! They took a single large box and painted two cylindrical tanks on it. They didn't even bother to shave off the corners of the box, where nothing should have been! It was the WORST costume I had ever seen. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 85 14:16:57 EST From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: re: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes Saying that "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" is the worst SF movie ever made is a bit like saying "Airplane" is the worst disaster film ever made. "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" is a *spoof*, and pretty damn funny one, too. "The Wizard of Mars" and "Plan 9 from Outer Space" are funny because they're so bad, not because they try to be funny. "Attack" is an entirely animal. ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!bbanerje@topaz (B. Banerjee) Subject: Re: Worst SF movie Date: 15 Jan 85 04:34:30 GMT >> >> My vote for worst SF movie is "Horror of Party Beach." >> >> Cheryl Nemeth I agree. Lesson learned from this flick was that chunks of sodium thrown at radioactive slime monsters will zap them. One evening, on a late night that I still recall with masochistic thrill, I sat through this, followed by Susanne Somers in "Zuma Beach". Arguably, two of the worst movies ever made. Regards, Binayak Banerjee {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!bbanerje P.S. Send Flames, I love mail. ------------------------------ From: alice!jj@topaz Subject: The worst Sci-Fi (and I don't mean SF) movie ever made Date: 16 Jan 85 18:25:58 GMT Oh, what about "Plan Nine from Outer Space"? Aren't we all forgetting the classic horrible sciffy movie of them all? Or maybe "Green Slime", the movie most noted for the way the smoke from the rocket engines eventually flows upwards, just like it was ... TEDDY BEARS PROTECT PENGUINS FROM WALRUSES "I wish I was home again, back home in my heart again, it's been such a time since my heart's home to me. ..." (allegra,harpo,ulysses)!alice!jj ------------------------------ From: 's@btbnl (.UUCP) Subject: A Science Fiction Question Date: 13 Jan 85 21:29:15 GMT Can anyone out there please help me with this question? Q: What was Captain Kirk's (Star Trek) son's full name? Sincerely, William M. Tatun UUCP: ...!decvax!philabs!sbcs!bnl!bt ARPA: bt@bnl Telephone: 516-475-6255 (VOICE) MAILING ADDRESS: 197 Schoenfeld Blvd. Patchogue, New York 11772 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 85 13:56:04 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: "interactive fiction" Has anybody played with the Trillium versions of RENDEZVOUS WITH RAMA or FAHRENHEIT 451? I read somewhere that Clarke had written an alternate ending for RAMA. Are either of the programs worth buying? - Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jan 85 20:15:20 est From: cjh@cca-unix (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Boskonians on the net Cc: decvax!decwrl!rhea!bartok!feldman@cca-unix The New England SF Assn (NESFA) doesn't have an ARPA address per se. Individual NESFen who are (a) on the ARPANet and (b) extensively involved with Boskone include Jim Turner (RG.JMTURN@MIT-OZ, I think) and myself. None of the people working Programming this year are on the net, but we can relay anything you want said to them. (You might be better off sending USNail: NESFA, Box G, MIT Branch PO, Cambridge MA 02139-0910.) The chair, Ann Broomhead, works at DEC-Bedford, but I have no idea what machine she's on. It occurs to me that it might be useful to have a directory of clubs reachable via the nets, similarly to Rich Zellich's con calendar---any volunteers? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jan 85 1112-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #22 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 18 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: Books - Forward & Leiber & Nourse (5 msgs) & Priest & Zelazny (3 msgs), Films - Jitlov Shorts, Television - Space: 1999 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: denelcor!lmc@topaz (Lyle McElhaney) Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly) Date: 15 Jan 85 00:39:50 GMT > I discovered another new (to me) author on that same trip ... > Robert L. Forward. His first novel, DRAGON's EGG, was published > five years ago and is a real treat. Forward's latest book, "The Flight of the Dragonfly" has been released in a trade edition. Like "Dragon's Egg", the science is absolutely first rate (as you would expect); very solidly based and yet imaginative in the style of Hal Clement's planets. The engineering of the spacecraft and especially the Christmas Bush robot(s) is unique. The characterizations of the scientists in Dragonfly is, like his first book, very stilted. To a man (and woman), the characters are *absolutely* dedicated to their arts-science (all are multiply talented), and are extremely well-adjusted to each other and their fates (they cannot have children, will never return from their voyage, and experience relativistic alienation). They have no faults. The story would be very boring if it had to depend only on the characters and their interactions. Buy it to read a world-class scientist speculate on inter-stellar travel. The plot, in this case, is not the thing, nor the style. I've certainly paid a lot more (than the trade price) for books that taught less without half of the interest. Lyle McElhaney ...denelcor!lmc {hao, stcvax, brl-bmd, nbires, csu-cs} !denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (e.leeper) Subject: Re: Someone has apparently pirated "Conjure Wife" by Fritz Subject: Lieber Date: 15 Jan 85 13:29:37 GMT > While vegetating early one Saturday afternoon, I found on the > tube a movie which I think they had titled: "Witches Brew". It > was the second movie I've seen based on Fritz Leiber's "Conjure > Wife". I checked out the credits at the end of the movie > thoroughly, and while they listed a couple of 'writers', they gave > Fritz absolutely no credit. How can they get away with this? Nope, the third movie--don't forget WEIRD WOMAN (1944). My suspicion is that Leiber was paid but asked to have his name kept off the credits. Of course, since the thing has run only on cable (as far as I can tell), they may not have paid him. If so, I'm sure the lawyers are hacking it out now. WITCHES' BREW is an okay film as a parody of BURN WITCH BURN (I haven't seen WEIRD WOMAN--it seems to be semi-lost), but if you haven't seen BURN WITCH BURN or read CONJURE WIFE, skip it. Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1985 13:57 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Name the Book... I believe the book is "Doctor to the Stars" by Alan E. Nourse ------------------------------ From: orca!andrew@topaz (Andrew Klossner) Subject: Re: Name the Book... Date: 13 Jan 85 01:56:30 GMT >"I read this when in Junior High, so i'm fuzzy on details. If >anyone can identify the author/title/publisher etc. I would >appreciate it ... The book is set in a far future Earth whose sole >export to the rest of the (non-human) galaxy is its medical >technology. The hero is the first non-human medical student sent >to earth. The book covers his training, and some of his early >career." The book is "Star Surgeon" by Alan Nourse. My copy was published by Scholastic Book Services, which means I bought it back in grade school. This is a great juvenile. It gently teaches that racial discrimination is bad by showing humans dumping on the first alien to enroll in an Earth medical school. This is also the book where I first encountered the concept of a colony of unicellular organisms with a single intelligence. -- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jan 85 18:12 EST From: "Allan C. Wechsler" Subject: Dean Sutherland's title request Maybe Dean F. Sutherland is thinking of Nourse's _Star Surgeon_. My favorite Nourse is _The Universe Between_. I liked him a lot when I was younger, and now I'm wondering if I missed any. Can someone with a good index forward to the digest a chronological list of Nourse's novels? Is he still writing? --- Allan [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who sent in similar information: Ray Chen (chenr%tilt.FUN@topaz) Morris M. Keesan (keesan@BBNCCI) Rich Alderson (A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]) Dave Lampe (ptsfb!djl@topaz) ] ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jan 1985 13:59 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Dean Sutherland Subject: Can anyone identify >Date: Wednesday, 9 January 1985 14:55-EST >From: Dean Sutherland > >this book? It was written by Alan E. Nourse (I think...) > >Hero is a member of "Earth Intelligence". He is trying to catch a >spy for the "bad guys" (I don't remember who they are). The spy >has the ability to teleport himself from any point on a planet to >any other, or to teleport from ground to orbit (or vice versa). I >recall that the Earth empire held together because their military >could supposedly cause suns to nova. > >The only other thing that I remember is that many characters turn >out to actually be different people than the reader is led to >believe. In fact, at least one character really isn't the person >HE thought he was... This one is (I think) "The Programmed Man". The author is not Nourse, but a husband/wife team, in the early part of the alphabet. ------------------------------ From: asente@Cascade.ARPA Subject: Re: Can anyone identify Date: 16 Jan 85 00:46:52 GMT > From: Dean Sutherland > > this book? It was written by Alan E. Nourse (I think...) > > Hero is a member of "Earth Intelligence". He is trying to catch a > spy for the "bad guys" (I don't remember who they are). The spy > has the ability to teleport himself from any point on a planet to > any other, or to teleport from ground to orbit (or vice versa). I > recall that the Earth empire held together because their military > could supposedly cause suns to nova. > > The only other thing that I remember is that many characters turn > out to actually be different people than the reader is led to > believe. In fact, at least one character really isn't the person > HE thought he was... This sounds a lot like "The Programmed Man." I read this when I was about in 7th grade so the memory's a bit fuzzy, but I recall liking it. It was definitely a juvenile SF book. -paul asente ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley) Subject: THE AFFIRMATION by Christopher Priest Date: 14 Jan 85 02:16:07 GMT I recently read THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE by Philip K Dick, which is an excellent novel that has been disgracefully neglected. When I came upon Christopher Priest's THE AFFIRMATION (Arena, London, c1981, L2.50 -- this is a 1983 British trade paperback) I was struck by how inevitably Dickian the book seemed, especially in the light of TEETH. TEETH tries to be a 'mainstream' novel about the 'little universes' we all live in; its sf aftertaste made it unpublishable at the time it was written, in 1960, and Dick was driven to give up on mainstream writing (his next novel was THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE). There are certainly some superficial similarities between the novels. THE AFFIRMATION has been billed as 'mainstream' fiction (a bit of a joke -- the cover is very careful never to mention the words 'science fiction', although no experienced reader would fail to notice its sf nature), and it also has failed to find an American publisher; I understand the experience has left Priest somewhat bitter. The careful prose and the distinctly English sensibility of THE AFFIRMATION are quite different from Dick's work, however. Yet at a deep level there are consistencies: if I say that the psychology of THE AFFIRMATION is like TEETH and the philosophy is like UBIK, perhaps you'll get a feeling for what I mean. Peter Sinclair's breakup with his girlfriend has left him deeply disturbed with himself. His image of himself is losing definition, and as a defense he decides to write his autobiography, hoping to rationalize his life, to give it theme and structure. Soon he discovers that his own memory is insufficient to reproduce his life -- when he writes about it, he finds that the events seem to have happened to another person, the details threaten to trap him and prevent him from characterizing the grand metaphors in his existence. So he decides to fictionalize: he will create a new universe for his narrative, one that will have correspondences to his own but which he can shape at will: he will write himself into existence. After a while we detect that something is wrong, however, and an accumulation of little discrepancies lead us to wonder whether the narrator is entirely sane, and worse, who is imagining who... An added twist, for those who know Priest's work, is that the alternate world which Peter Sinclair 'creates' is the same as the Dream Archipelago in which a number of Priest's stories are set. Although Priest tells us (in the introduction to AN INFINITE SUMMER, a superb collection) that the Dream Archipelago stories are not 'linked', it's hard to avoid wondering about the connection between THE AFFIRMATION and the story 'The Negation', especially when the latter features an author who has written a novel titled THE AFFIRMATION. I liked THE AFFIRMATION, although I suspect that another reading will change some of my ideas about it... Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley) Subject: A Zelazny story wins a prize Date: 15 Jan 85 03:16:31 GMT From The New York Times, 1/12/85: Detroit, Jan. 11 (AP) -- A 16-year-old honor student agreed to return a $1000 prize for a short story that he originally said he had written but that he later admitted was the work of Roger Zelazny, a prize-winning author. The student, Phil Broder, said Thursday, after he was confronted by his father and school officials, that he had lifted his story, 'The George Business', about a lovesick knight and a cynical dragon, from UNIVERSE VARIATIONS [sic], a collection by Mr. Zelazny that was published in 1983. This episode sounds like a wonderful short story subject -- I wonder if Zelazny would care to fictionalize it as an alternate universe story and title it 'Universe Variations'? Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 17 Jan 1985 06:08:12-PST From: faiman%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Neil Faiman ~ ZKO2-3/N30 ~ From: 381-2017) Subject: _The_Changing_Land_ I'm another Zelazny fan who has found the Dilvish books to be fun reading -- far from great, but certainly enjoyable for anyone who enjoys Zelazny. But I've been baffled by one thing about _The_Changing_Land_. (********** Minor spoiler **********) Fairly late in the book, there's a fairly long sequence in which the castle comes unstuck in time and gets accelerated off into the far future. Now, this whole sequence is a spectacularly close copy of the central portion of William Hope Hodgson's _The_House_on_the_ Borderland_ -- far too close for coincidence. So why did Zelazny copy a big chunk of an obscure early 1900's fantasy story? Was anyone else struck by this? -Neil Faiman Easynet: ELUDOM::FAIMAN ARPA: FAIMAN%ELUDOM.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA UUCP: {allegra,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-eludom!faiman ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jan 85 11:05:27 PST (Thursday) From: Lfeinberg.es@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Zelazny Along the same lines, Zelazny writes incidents involving his characters which he deliberately leaves out of his published work, on the ground that these extra incidents give the character more backgound and a deeper personality. See the short essays in his most recent (late 84?) collection. Sorry, the name's been forgotten -- it's got "Unicorn" in the title. Lawrence ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz Subject: Re: animated sf shorts Date: 14 Jan 85 07:46:00 GMT Pyramid (the film co., not the computer co.) distributes either "The Wizard of Speed and Time" or "Animato," and may well distribute his other films as well. Wombat "I am not, nor have I ever been, jan howard finder" ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 85 23:39:28 PST (Wed) To: alice!alb@topaz Subject: Re: Space: 1999 From: Jim Hester The following is from "Fantastic Telivision": a reference book to many TV-SF serials, and ancient memories. The spelling of the alien's name was "Maya." She came from the planet Psychon. In four pages of description, the only things "Fantastic Television" had to say about her were "He (Fred Freiberger - producer for the second season) also wanted to add new characters, most significantly an alien named Maya who would serve as Alpha's science officer" and "The introduction of Maya, however was not the wisest move. Audiences looked upon her as a gimmick---a Mr. Spock rip-off, a token, rather than a resident, alien." The pertinent details from the index of episodes follows: THE METAMORPH: This first episode of the (second) season ... introduces Maya to the regular cast. On the planet Psychon, an evil-minded alien named Mentor captures the Alphans and tries to drain their minds. His daughter Maya who is capable of transforming herself into any form, helps the Earth people escape. I vaguely recall this episode. Their planet was doomed, reason unremembered. Mentor had created a 'protein computer' which had transmutation abilities, but it got it's power from intelligent beings, using them up in the process. Maya's father was killing off everyone in sight trying to charge the computer up to save his planet, and just about killed off the Space 1999 regulars before Maya finally discovered him and destroyed the computer, which set off a chain reaction killing her father and destroying the planet (or at least making it uninhabitable). Thus she joined the Alphans. There was one other episode that had a criminal from her planet who had been put into some kind of suspended animation and cast adrift. Same plot: Maya believed everything he said up until the end when she found him out and betrayed him. The episode was called "DORZAK", which was presumably his name. The description given in the index is worthless. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jan 85 1142-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #23 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 19 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - 2010 ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: cvl!hsu@topaz (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: Floyds computer Date: 10 Jan 85 18:38:04 GMT > In response to Tom Galloway unless my eyes were totally shot when > I saw 2010 ( possible considering the company ) the computer on > the beach was a Hewlett Packard HP-110. A much better computer > than the Apple //c but still not what one could expect for > thirty-five years from now. Even a Convergent Workslate may have > looked better. Well, sorry to say this, but it really was an Apple //c with the optional and (dare I say it) rare LCD display. The HP's display is very visibly hinged, and somewhat thicker. Also, those oversize D connectors with the thumbknobs are rather obvious. And of course, Apple did negotiate for product placement in the film. A shame they didn't use the stuff with Floyd's Mac, also made available for the film. Re: last issue of Softalk magazine, circa Sept 84. -Dave Hsu (hsu@cvl) ------------------------------ From: orca!davidl@topaz (David Levine) Subject: Re: 2010 glitch Date: 9 Jan 85 18:49:07 GMT >From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA >Did anyone notice this one? In the "Mission Report" at the >beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in >1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho >monolith". > >I seem to remember that the Monolith was originally found at >Clavius and called something like the Clavius Anomaly. Please >correct me if I'm wrong. (This is the movie 2001 that I'm refering >to). In '2001', the monolith found on the Moon was designated Tycho Magnetic Anomaly 1, or TMA-1 (it was originally detected because it had an enrmous magnetic field). The monolith found near Jupiter was called TMA-2, although (as someone in the book noted) it was nowhere near Tycho and was not magnetic. However, I can see the name mutating over the course of 11 years. I imagine the Monolith would become the subject of near-legendary tales, like those of the bodies from the crashed flying saucer in a hangar in Texas... Oh, Clavius was the location of the base that Heywood Floyd was traveling to at the beginning of the film. (It's amazing how much a man can change in 11 years... by 2010, he looked just like Roy Scheider! :-) ) That may be what you remember. David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl) [UUCP] (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ From: ihuxi!okie@topaz (B.K. Cobb) Subject: Re: 2010 glitch Date: 10 Jan 85 21:36:29 GMT Sorry, Brett, you're close but not correct. The lunar base where Floyd and company landed was, indeed, Clavius (located in the crater Clavius). The monolith was dug up in the crater Tycho -- thus its title, TMA-1 (Tycho Magnetic Anomaly-1). If you'll recall, Floyd had to take a trip via moonbus out to the Tycho site from Clavius. You know, I wonder why they didn't refer to the "Tycho monolith" as "TMA-1" in 2010? Too confusing to the audience? Just not enough continuity? B.K. Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie "Will this upstart ever stop?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 85 14:02:28 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: 2001: book versus movie Actually, in the book Dave never even tries to get Frank. Instead, HAL opens the pod bay doors while Dave is inside the ship (causing the air to escape), and he is forced to locate an emergency closet with an oxygen tank in it. Not nearly as exciting, but it does attribute more sense to Bowman. - Mike ------------------------------ Subject: 2010: A few quick comments.. From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jeffrey Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 1985 16:04 EST Despite some "critics" opinions, I think that 2010 was a very good movie, in fact one of the best I have seen in the last 12 months. Yes, there were some technical difficulties , but according to my science consultant, only one couldn't be explained (the pen and pencil sequence obviously). > One other thing. Does anyone know what that small thing was that > flew out of the airlock when it was opened? I have been wracking > my brain trying to figure out if it had any significance in 2001. That was a peice of paper. In 2010 Kurnov wonders if it was some last vital message from Bowman, but then it goes out of his reach and out to the stars. > The ending of the movie 2010 is fine, and the monolith scene is > lovely. But a major point is left out from the book! The aliens > (monolith makers, not Europa greenies) tell Bowman that someday, > after the Europans mature as an intelligent race, that the solar > system will be only big enuf for one race, and at that time the > Aliens will choose between them... which one lives, and which one > is snuffed out (as was the life on Jupiter, depicted in the book). > In other words, THE LAST JUDGMENT. Shape up, Humans, or > SHIP OUT! Certainly calling off the war with the Russians is a > step in the right direction (the alternative might spare the > Aliens the trouble of exterminating us). Don't be an idiot. The main ideal stressed by the Aliens was the SAVING of Mind, not the destruction. They only killed the life on Jupiter because it could never flourish to intelligence, but by Jupiter's destruction, the Aliens could propigate intelligence in a more hopefull race, the Europans. The Aliens would never kill the humans (or the Europans for that matter!) just because we have some political difficulties. The book means that if humans and Europans cant get along well, we may have to slug it out (out first intersteller war!) , and the winner takes all. (Two solar systems... Quite a prize!!) "You know I have the greatest enthusiasm for this review, Dave." ------------------------------ From: trandolph%cougar.DEC@topaz Subject: 2010 bugs... Date: 11 Jan 85 13:27:40 GMT >Did anyone notice this one? In the "Mission Report" at the >beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in >1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho >monolith". If so, someone needs a lunar map. Without looking it up, I can only say that Tycho is well south and west of the Sea or Tranquility (is it Mare Cognitum? someone get a map!) >I seem to remember that the Monolith was originally found at >Clavius and called something like the Clavius Anomaly. Please >correct me if I'm wrong. (This is the movie 2001 that I'm refering >to). Well, in the novel 2001, the monolith was found in the crater Tycho, because of it's abnormal magnetic field. Hence, it was called Tycho Magnetic Anomaly One (TMA-1)... In fact, I believe the monolith found by Dave Bowman was christened TMA-2... T.F.Randolph UUCP: ...{allegra,amd,decvax,ihnp4,nsc,ucbvax}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cougar!trandolph USnail: DEC,Mail stop LMO2/E01, 111 Locke Drive, Marlboro, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: zehntel!jackh@topaz (jack hagerty) Subject: Discovery pods Date: 11 Jan 85 00:54:40 GMT All of you people who claim that in the book 2001 Bowman retrieves his pod by remote control after his "helmetless" re-entry must have a different version of the book than I. According to my copy of 2001, the original version published concurrent with the movie, Bowman never goes after Poole. After HAL bunted Poole into oblivion with the pod, Bowman tracks him with the telescope. Seeing that the air line is torn and that the body doesn't move (except for a random flapping of an arm a la the dead Captian Ahab in "Moby Dick") Bowman decides that the rescue of a dead body is not worth the danger of an EVA. It is *Poole's* pod that Bowman returns by remote control. HAL then tries to kill Bowman by opening both the inner and outer pod bay doors at the same time and evacuating the ship. He has to struggle "uphill" against this artificial hurricane until he reaches the emergency cubicle where the spare space suit is. After disconnecting HAL, Bowman takes one of the pods into the monolith. So, *according to the book*, the pod bay should have had *two* pods, both with doors attached, and no air in the ship. Of course, according to the book, they should have been around Saturn as well! Jack Hagerty, Zehntel Automation Systems ...!ihnp4!zehntel!jackh ------------------------------ From: houxz!disc@topaz (S.BERRY) Subject: Re: Discovery pods Date: 11 Jan 85 13:24:10 GMT Of course, all this discussion about the differences in the handling of the pods (and other things in general) between the BOOK 2001, and the MOVIE 2001 is moot. Clarke wrote the BOOK 2010 as a sequel to the MOVIE 2001. SJBerry ------------------------------ From: ihuxi!okie@topaz (B.K. Cobb) Subject: Re: Discovery pods Date: 11 Jan 85 14:59:49 GMT On the matter of the Discovery's pods... Did anyone else look closely during the sequence where Brasilov and Curnow first enter the pod bay? When one of them shines his light into the remaining pod, you can see through the pod's front window that the door to the pod is either open or missing -- there's a rectangular opening where the light is shining through. Hmmm... Looks like Bowman could have brought back his pod on remote after pulling his "cannon shot" to get back into Discovery. Anybody else out there see this? Or was it something in the popcorn? B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie "You'd better patronize me." ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Randy Buckland) Subject: Re: 2010 glitch Date: 11 Jan 85 14:02:16 GMT >Did anyone notice this one? In the "Mission Report" at the >beginning of the film, the monolith is said to have been dug up in >1999 in the Sea of Tranquillity, and is known as the "Tycho >monolith". > >I seem to remember that the Monolith was originally found at >Clavius and called something like the Clavius Anomaly. Please >correct me if I'm wrong. (This is the movie 2001 that I'm refering >to). You are wrong. The monolith was in Tycho and was called the "Tycho Magnetic Anomaly - 1" or TMA-1 Clavius was the moon base. Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz (john) Subject: Re: Floyds computer Date: 12 Jan 85 20:22:00 GMT No, Floyds computer was a apple II-C with LCD display. Apple had anounced that the LCD would be available by fall which would have been close to the release date for 2010. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ From: tekecs!waltt@topaz (Walt Tucker) Subject: Re: Discovery pods Date: 14 Jan 85 16:41:27 GMT > All of you people who claim that in the book 2001 Bowman retrieves > his pod by remote control after his "helmetless" re-entry must > have a different version of the book than I. The pod reference is in the book *2010*, not 2001. Strange, the book 2010 was a sequel to the movie 2001, not Clarke's book 2001. Hence, what is explained in the book 2010 is what happened in the first movie, not the first book. -- Walt ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jan 85 13:22:51 EST From: Jon Subject: 2010 (Oh no, not again) I have a few qualms about the discussion regarding 2010. Here goes--- (and please forgive me, I haven't read the 2010 book yet) 1) I am ashamed at some of you out there! This whole matter of a missing helmet in the pod bay is driving me nuts! Do you think that the space agency that sent out Discovery (is it still Nasa?) would skimp in the spacesuit department? I should hope that the powers that be would have provided a spacesuit for each person on the trip, EVEN THOSE IN HIBERNATION! God forbid that when all were revived a problem arise in the ship requiring each crewmember to suit up. What happens to Kaminsky, et al? Suffocation? I think not! 2) The end of the film really bit the big one, I'm sure you all agree. Very anticlimactic, if you ask me. Hyams really blew it by leading us on with the "Something Wonderful..." bit. It was more like "Something Catastrophic...". An ultimatum from Bowman would have been more reasonable; something along the lines of "If you don't leave within 48 hours, you'll be neutronized" would make me stop in my tracks faster than it "o-my-gosh, golly-o-gee Something Wonderful..." As Jupiter was imploding, I completely cringed at Dr. Floyd yelling "hurry!" Obviously, the Leonov was up at cranking speed, and could not go any faster. I would have preferred him to adopt the Arthur Dent Attitude of Impending Doom, ie. "so this is it, we're going to die." Although not a tension builder, it would be more realistic. Finally, an implosion of Jupiter has to be able to cause disasterous things to the Leonov and the Earth. Consider this- a power that has the ability to create stars should also have the power to shield selected objects from being annihilated by the event. I don't think that this is unreasonable. They/he/she/it would have at least computed the ramifications in advance of actually making a sun (there was enough time to, over the course of the millions of years of human development). 3) There is something else that no-one has mentioned (or is it in the book?). What happened to SAL? The only hint of this in the movie comes after HAL asks Dr. Chandra, "Will I Dream?". Dr. Chandra replies, "I don't know..." Does this mean that he lost SAL? Let's have some discussion about this. JOn (TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA) The preceding discussion represents the opinion of myself, and not my employers or anyone else for that matter. It's what sets me apart from the rest of you. ------------------------------ From: zehntel!jackh@topaz (jack hagerty) Subject: Re: Re: Discovery pods Date: 15 Jan 85 18:23:14 GMT > Of course, all this discussion about the differences in the > handling of the pods (and other things in general) between the > BOOK 2001, and the MOVIE 2001 is moot. Clarke wrote the BOOK 2010 > as a sequel to the MOVIE 2001. This is true, but my question still remains: what do the people mean who say that, in the book, Bowman retrieved the pod by remote control? Some mail from Peter Bain prompted me to re-read that part last weekend. In that sequence, Bowman never goes after Poole. When last seen, the pod, still under HAL's control and with the lifeless form of Frank Poole still tethered to it, was accelerating away from the Discovery at full thrust. BTW, as Peter pointed out, this occured while they were still several months away from Saturn so there was plenty of time to re-pressurize the ship. There was also a mention of the smell from the rotting food which "the air purifiers could never quite get rid of." Jack Hagerty, Zehntel Automation Systems ...!ihnp4!zehntel!jackh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 22 Jan 85 1051-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #24 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jan 85 1051-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #24 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 24 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Chandler & Forward & Kuttner & Nourse & Schmitz (2 msgs) & Sucharitkul & Wolfe, Films - Enemy Mine & The Black Cauldron & Perils of Gwendolline & Rare SF Movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Re: So Long, and here's my theories Date: 15 Jan 85 18:04:00 GMT TRUDEL@RU-BLUE.ARPA writes: >Obviously, Adams has something more planned. A recent entry into >the digest about an Adams interview suggested that he was taking >some time off, so I do not expect to see anything coming soon. I'm >sure he has some ideas brewing on a back burner about the fifth >book of the trilogy, so I'll be waiting with my peril sensitive >sunglasses in the meantime. Bad news: I was at a lecture Adams gave in Berkeley and he said the Hitchhiker's series was over. He was working on a movie (with the people who did Ghostbusters). Anyone else have information on this? Cheryl Nemeth All opinions expressed in this article are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Calma Company or my cats. "Life is a series of rude awakenings" R. V. Winkle [Robert Asprin] ------------------------------ From: unm-cvax!cs2532aa@topaz Subject: Re: So Long, and here's my theories Date: 22 Jan 85 02:11:00 GMT > Bad news: I was at a lecture Adams gave in Berkeley and he said > the Hitchhiker's series was over. He was working on a movie (with > the people who did Ghostbusters). Anyone else have information on > this? > Cheryl Nemeth From what I have heard, Ivan Reitman (Heavy Metal, Meatballs, Caddyshack, Stripes, and Ghostbusters) has been signed to produce, direct, or both for the motion picture version of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". Probably means that Bill Murray will play Zaphod and Harold Ramis will play Ford, leaving John Candy to play Arthur. "I'm a doctor, not a Vogon Constructor Fleet!" .rne. Ernie Longmire 311 Don St. SE Los Lunas NM 87031 UUCP: {purdue,cmc12,ihnp4}!lanl!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa {csu-cs,pur-ee,gatech,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa ------------------------------ Date: 19850118-2146EST From: BLUEINC%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: the A.B.C's of SF Unfortunetly, I recently heard that A. Bertram Chandler did die due to his stroke. For those of you who don't know who he is. He wrote a series of books about Commodore Grimes of the Interstellar Federation Survey Service. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 85 02:03:48 PST (Sat) To: denelcor!lmc@topaz Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly) From: Alastair Milne >> I discovered another new (to me) author on that same trip ... >> Robert L. Forward. His first novel, DRAGON's EGG, was published >> five years ago and is a real treat. > Forward's latest book, "The Flight of the Dragonfly" has been > released in a trade edition. Like "Dragon's Egg", the science is > absolutely first rate (as you would expect); very solidly based > and yet imaginative in the style of Hal Clement's planets. The > engineering of the spacecraft and especially the Christmas Bush > robot(s) is unique. Thank you. Having read and enormously enjoyed Dragon's Egg, I take that as a strong recommendation. I'll have to try to find "... Dragonfly". I agree completely about Forward's science. After the disappointments, gaps, and need for massive suspension of disbelieve so common with most sf, the solidity and excitement of Forward's ideas is a great relief. > The characterizations of the scientists in Dragonfly is, like his > first book, very stilted. To a man (and woman), the characters are > *absolutely* dedicated to their arts-science (all are multiply > talented), and are extremely well-adjusted to each other and their > fates (they cannot have children, will never return from their > voyage, and experience relativistic alienation). They have no > faults. The story would be very boring if it had to depend only on > the characters and their interactions. I have to contend with you about the characterisations on 2 points: 1 - the explorer type is often like that -- witness Thor Heyerdahl, or the people who are not content until they've walked to the South Pole or dog-paddled the Pacific (I am *not* mocking; I am using hyperbole to emphasise a point): without that kind of oneness of purpose, they couldn't do it. 2 - I think you're only talking about the human characters. What about the various characters throughout the history of the Egg (just now I can't remember what they called themselves)? Quite a variety of range and colour there -- recall the "messiah" who was the first to feel the probe laser on his topsides. And of course, that was the focus of the story: the evolution of the neutron creatures and their society, and the most notable characters in their history. > Buy it to read a world-class scientist speculate on inter-stellar > travel. The plot, in this case, is not the thing, nor the style. > I've certainly paid a lot more (than the trade price) for books > that taught less without half of the interest. > > Lyle McElhaney > ...denelcor!lmc > {hao, stcvax, brl-bmd, nbires, csu-cs} !denelcor!lmc Agreed on all counts. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Barry Gold) Subject: Re: Drunken Inventor Date: 18 Jan 85 04:07:40 GMT Your friend is thinking of ROBOTS HAVE NO TALES by Kuttner. It has five short stories in it about Galloway Gallagher, whose genius was only released when he got drunk. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: Dean Sutherland's title request (Really Nourse) Date: 17 Jan 85 06:44:19 GMT >From: "Allan C. Wechsler" >Maybe Dean F. Sutherland is thinking of Nourse's _Star Surgeon_. >My favorite Nourse is _The Universe Between_. I liked him a lot >when I was younger, and now I'm wondering if I missed any. Can >someone with a good index forward to the digest a chronological >list of Nourse's novels? Is he still writing? I don't have a chronological or a complete list, but I'll name a few as an excuse to put in a plug for one of my all time favorites. That being _Raiders From the Rings_. I must have read this book more than 20 times back in younger days. I would always check Raiders and Heinlein's _Space Cadet_ out from the school library several times a year and spend some happy hours with them. As you might guess from the distinguished company I mentioned, Raiders is a juvenile space adventure (not juvenile in any pejorative sense) set partly in the asteroid belt. It seems that sometime in the future, Earth starts to colonize space and then gives it up as a bad job, leaving the spacers to fend for themselves. There is one big catch, because of something to do with radiation and chromosomes (Nourse is a doctor and makes it convincing), no girls are born in space. To survive, the spacers must make lightning raids on Earth to collect women (who like the Sabines eventually come to like their new life). Needless to say, the Earth authorities take a dim view of this and wage a massive propaganda campaign against spacers (which includes supressing the facts that impel the spacers to raid). The story's main character is a young spacer on his first raid. Through a series of circumstances I don't quite remember, he catches both a girl and her brother (which isn't supposed to happen). From that point on, everything starts to go wrong, his ship is damaged and his home wiped out by a massive counterattack from Earth (which has decided to opt for the Final Solution). The only way to save the day is for the 3 hereditary enemies to band together ... and nonhuman eyes are watching too. Great stuff -- give it to your kids, read it yourself. OK, got that out of my system (though I may do a posting on my favorite juveniles someday). _The Universe Between_ - already mentioned, another good juvenile on an alternate dimension's theme. _Psi High & Others_ - A story collection, some good ones in there as I recall. _Hospital Earth_ - A collection a stories set in the same universe as _Star Surgeon_. (Including, I think, the one about the crew who find the only way to control the amoeba like thing infesting their ship it to keep eating it) _The Mercy Men_ - A novel about the human volunteers for medical experiments (I think, never did get a chance to read this one) _Bladerunner_ - Nourse's most recent book that I am aware of, a kind of "If this goes on" for medicine. _Tiger by the Tail_ - Another collection I'm sure there are some others, I think that I'm surely missing at least one story collection and maybe a novel. To cover that case, I will say that I've never read anything of Nourse's that I regretted (although of course some are better than others). Turning a corner that isn't there Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination") ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: Witches of Karres Date: 17 Jan 85 06:09:51 GMT walker@unc.UUCP (Doug Walker) writes: >The Witches of Karres was written by James Schmitz. I enjoyed it, >so I got some of his other books - The Telzey Toy and one other - >and they were absolutely awful. Really bad stuff. I wouldn't mind >seeing a sequel to Witches of Karres, but don't waste your time on >his other books. I strongly disagree. I think that the Telzy Amberdon stories are some of the best character oriented sf from the period and that they still stand up well today. Telzy herself in a very appealing person, and her universe quite interesting. I always wished that Schmitz had written more stories in this milieu, both to see Telzy again and to expand some on the background of life in the Hub Federation. As a SC state legislator prepares to introduce mandatory seat belt laws into the House, I find myself pining for an Overgovernment whose general policy is to leave people alone so the race doesn't loose its competitive edge. For people wanting more Schmitz, I can suggest a few things I haven't seen mentioned on the net yet : _A_Tale_of_Two_Clocks (a novel of the Old Galactics and Trigger Argee Unfortunately, there is an alternate title for this one which I can't remember ), _Agent of Vega_ (a short story collection), _A Pride of Monsters_ (another collection) and "The Witches of Karres" - the novella on which the substantially different novel was based (available in one of the SF Hall of Fame volumes). BTW if you can find the first (only?) DAW edition of _The Lion Game_, the Freas cover is worth the price of the book in itself (especially if you are male). psigning off Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination") ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 85 21:19:00 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: James Schmitz Anyone who enjoyed "Witches of Kares" would probably also enjoy the Telzey Amberdon stories (start with "The Telzey Toy"), the Vegan Empire stories, and the stories of the Kyth Interstellar Detective Agency. Steve ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!msj@topaz (Mike St. Johns) Subject: Re: Somtow Sucharitkul Date: 13 Jan 85 11:47:11 GMT I actually ran into him in a book store in DC. HE was living there at last I knew. Mike St. Johns Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!msj StJohns@MIT-Multics.ARPA (404) 982-0035 ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz Subject: Wolfe Date: 14 Jan 85 07:32:00 GMT mcdonald@smu writes >Wolfe's newest book is _Live_Free_Live_. It was advertised >incorrectly as _Love_Free_Love_. All I really know about it is >that the title comes from a classified ad offering free rent and >that every time he explains what it's about he says something >completely different. Closer - actually, it's *Free Live Free*. One of the main characters is named Ben Free, and he places the ad inviting people to come and live in his house rent-free. It was fairly easy to finish, but I don't think it was up to the caliber of *The Book of the New Sun*. I don't think he did a good enough job with his major characters, and the resolution was kind of silly. Wombat "I am not, nor have I ever been, jan howard finder" ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ From: watrose!vljohnson@topaz (Lee Johnson) Subject: Re: Upcoming SF/Fantasy films (very long) Date: 17 Jan 85 02:33:07 GMT > "Enemy Mine" > "Das Boot's" Wolfgang Petersen directs this tale of two > enemy space pilots - one human (Dennis Quaid), the other not (Lou > Gosset, Jr.)- as they fight and learn to respect each other in a > distant galaxy. (Fox) Is this based on Barry B. Longyear's story of the same name? If so, this is a movie I want to see! Regards, Lee Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jan 1985 15:37 EST From: Nan Ellman To: calmasd!cjn@TOPAZ.ARPA (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: The *Black* Cauldron I suspect that the movie only covers this one book, since it is a complete story in itself. I am a bit apprehensive about it, though. I also loved the books, and I would hate to see Disney do to them what it did to _Sword and the Stone_. Lloyd Alexander treats his characters intelligently (all right I know T. H. White didn't) and I hope Disney gives them the same courtesy. Nan (if they make Orwen, Orddu, and Orgoch into comic characters I will KILL!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 85 16:58 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: Perils of Gwendolline movie According to the Feb '85 /Comics Journal/, the "Perils of Gwendolline" movie /is/ based on the comic, but the bondage has been removed. Mark ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: Rare Sci fi Movie Date: 18 Jan 85 21:07:55 GMT You might try writing to Blackhawk Films in Davenport, Iowa. They specialize in old and obscure films, and have extensive archives. At very least, they might be able to point you to a source that could supply you with information. Another possible source of information is classified ads in film journals/magazines. Check your local library for magazines like Film Comment, etc. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jan 85 1116-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #25 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 22 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & Huysmaus & Kuttner & Vance & Vinge & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Time speeding (2 msgs) & Females in SF (2 msgs), Films - Worst SF Film (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever Date: 20 Jan 85 17:25:39 GMT > The rumor I have heard is that the author has planned the books > out so that there will be a total of fifteen. Is this true? Does > anyone know any better? Could you bear it if there *were* this > many? I certainly would like to read more of Donaldson. But more Thomas Covenant? Hmmm. I am not sure where he (Donaldson) can go from here. I greatly enjoyed the series even though for the first few books, TC was just a real pain to be around -- for the reader as much as anyone *in* the story. And, no, I could not take 9 more books on the same story line (I don't think I could). I feel obligated when I start a series to finish it... And I don't want to read that much about TC. (I stopped reading about Pern because I got all dragon-ed out after 4 or so books...) But Donaldson's writing -- of *that* I would like to see more. Fred Avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio ARPA: grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA ------------------------------ From: alice!alb@topaz (Adam L. Buchsbaum) Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever Date: 20 Jan 85 16:43:29 GMT I saw Steven Donaldson when he came to talk at Princeton in May, 1983. This was just after WGW came out. He is a marvelous speaker, after he gets relaxed (he starts out very nervous). I wish I had taken notes so I could relate some of the things he said, but he explained the TC books and the logic behind them very well (and answered questions about them). One thing he said that I do remember quite well was that he was taking a rest from the TC books to finish his book of short stories (''Daughter of Regals'' -- I have it -- VERY good) and that he MIGHT do another trilogy ''in the future.'' At the time, I didn't get the feeling that he would. I don't blame him. He wants to put his energies and talents into something else (some other writing; maybe not even SF/Fan). He said he hadn't even planned to do the second trilogy, but that the first sold so well and he got so much mail in support of them that Del Rey pursuaded him. ------------------------------ From: wenn@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (John Wenn) Subject: Re: Here is the plot. What is the title and author? Date: 19 Jan 85 23:28:53 GMT >One of Gallagher's inventions was a 'liquor organ' that would mix >drinks and dispense them through a hose so he could get drunk lying >down. The idea of a 'liquor organ' was published by Joris-Karl Huysmaus in his book "A Rebours" , in 1884. This is a classic work in the field of decadent literature. One of my favorites in my "Evil and Decadence in Literature" class at MIT. John Wenn ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: Here's the plot, what's the title? Date: 17 Jan 85 07:48:19 GMT > From: Alvin Wong > A friend of mine here is looking for a short story that was > published in Analog some time ago. He doesn't know the title or > author but has described the main gist of the plot to me which > follows : > The main character repeatly gets drunk and suffers from > blackouts. During his blackout periods he manages to invent > machines. When he recovers from these blackouts he doesn't > remember inventing the machines and spends his sober periods > trying to find out what they do. All the machines serve some > useful purpose and sometimes the inventor almost kills himself > while trying to discover it. He also makes acquaintances during > his blackouts and doesn't remember them either when sober. There > is some comic relief as the main character pretends he remembers > everything. > Any suggestions and/or pointers would be welcomed. Your friend may be thinking of "The Proud Robot" by Henry Kuttner. I guess you could say that it was published in \\Analog//, in much the same manner that my copy of \\What Mad Universe// (a story written in a 1954 time frame) has the protagonist suggesting that his girlfriend meet him at "Kennedy Airport" instead of Idlewild. Anyway, back to "The Proud Robot". Original publication was in 1943 in \\Astounding Science Fiction//. My reference is \\The Best of Henry Kuttner// (Ballantine, 1975), and I believe I have seen it in a couple of other places as well. The protagonist, Gallagher, is an inventor who can only work while he's bombed out of his skull. During his latest binge he invented a robot who is not only proud, but unswervingly egotistical and disobedient. Gallagher is threatened with financial ruin unless he can get the robot, who may have the solution to his problems, back on track... Another offbeat story by a man who wrote lots of them. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ...Killjoy went that-a-way---> ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 85 21:21:43 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Magnus Ridolph Could someone give me pointers to Jack Vance's Magnus Ridolph stories? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jan 1985 10:50:45 EST From: Subject: True Names Re-release Like many readers of sf-lovers, I've been awaiting the re-release of Vernor Vinge's "True Names", one of the best novels about computers, hackers, and artificial intelligence. Last night, I spoke with Bob Walters, who did the cover and interior art for the new edition, and he provided me with the following news: The book, complete with an afterword by Marvin Minsky, was scheduled for an October release, and was so announced in Publisher's Weekly and other trade magazines. However, due to various foulups at BlueJay Books and/or St. Martin's Press (BlueJay's distributor), it was not actually released until late December or early January. Despite this, Jim Frenkel, BlueJay's editor- in-chief, did not revise the book's copyright date to read 1985. Many bookstores, including the major chains such as WaldenBooks, Crown, and Dalton's, have a buying policy which prohibits the purchasing of "old" releases unless they are either proven sellers or specially-ordered by the customers. "True Names", because of its '84 copyright, is considered as "old" even though it never reached the shelves, and thus never had a chance to demonstrate whatever selling power it might have. If you want this book, you will have to go and order it. I strongly urge all sf-lovers readers to do this, and to get their friends to do it, too. If enough special orders for the book start piling up at the various chains, they may choose to stock it. --Dave Axler ------------------------------ From: aecom!adler@topaz Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Dilvish ? Date: 18 Jan 85 07:34:23 GMT > Have others read the Zelazny novels about the character > Dilvish ? Any comments ? > I enjoyed them quite a bit. I first read "The Changing > Land" but then picked up the other one (I forget its title). This > seconds takes place before "The Changing Land" but was apparently > published after it. Anyone know the story behind this curiousity ? > Any other novels coming on Dilvish ? > Dan The other book "Dilvish the Damned" is composed of short stories, which were published in other places before being collected into the book. I haven't heard anything about a new Dilvish book, but the question reminds me - has any one heard anything about the Amber books that were rumored to be in the works? Jeremy Sanders aecom!sanders ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 21 Jan 1985 06:33:49-PST From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) >From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley) >From The New York Times, 1/12/85: > ...lifted his story, 'The George Business', about a lovesick > knight and a cynical dragon, from UNIVERSE VARIATIONS [sic], > a collection by Mr. Zelazny that was published in 1983. Don't they mean UNICORN VARIATIONS? The story was quite amusing, and the collection as a whole well worth reading. /BEB ------------------------------ From: hcrvx1!tracy@topaz (Tracy Tims) Subject: Fast Computer Design Date: 18 Jan 85 03:47:33 GMT I figure that as soon as we invent a subjective time rate modification field (cf. many SF stories) we will be able to built extremely fast computers. Just put a computer, any computer, inside of a sped up field. There are some drawbacks: the power consumption is directly proportional to the speed increase, and the thing will probably need really strange cooling devices to radiate away all the heat it would generate. You'd also have to design interface devices between the two time areas. They could be based on electromagnetic radiation with receptors in a different band on each side. (Apparent frequency shifting as the radiation crosses the field interface.) (The CPU activity light fried his hand off?) I think it's probably hard to simulate a system that's (in a similar timeframe) more complex than the system you are building the simulator in. But if we can get the differential time rate, we could simulate, well, everything! My only question is, who thought this up first? (I know about Niven's field). Tracy Tims {linus,allegra,decvax}!watmath!... Human Computing Resources Corporation {ihnp4,utzoo}!... Toronto, Ontario, Canada. 416 922-1937 ...hcr!hcrvx1!tracy ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!bane@topaz (John R. Bane) Subject: Re: Fast Computer Design Date: 22 Jan 85 01:43:27 GMT On the subject of speeded-up time; I remember reading an article in an old Analog entitled "Far Out Physics" in which the author speculated about negative mass. You see, time runs slower near large normal masses (accelerated frames of reference); therefore, time will run FASTER near a large negative mass. ARPAnet: bane@maryland CSnet: bane.umcp-cs Uucp:...{allegra,seismo}!umcp-cs!bane ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: female protaganists Date: 17 Jan 85 07:16:46 GMT To my mind, the best female fantasy character is Tiana of Reme, highrider,pirate and heroine of an S&S trilogy by Andrew J. Offut and Richard Lyon. The last book of the three , _Web of the Spider_ is an extraodinary book, much better than the other two and I heartily recommend it. There are some images in that one that have really stuck with me (the hungry apples, the scene depicted in the Rowena cover , the Owner, and Caranga watching a world too real to be bourne as absolute good and absolute evil play for his world, knowing a victory for either will doom humanity). If you ever had any urge to read S&S with a female protagonist, get this book. BTW, also get Jo Clayton's Moon books (esp _Moonscatter_). Altys of her Diadem books isn't bad either. Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination") ------------------------------ From: enmasse!mroddy@topaz (Mark Roddy) Subject: Re: Re: female protaganists Date: 19 Jan 85 18:43:45 GMT How about Cirocco Jones from John Varley's _Titan_ series? ------------------------------ Date: Sat 19 Jan 85 21:16:38-EST From: Michael Eisenberg Subject: Worst sf movie of all time Although it's kind of a cliched choice, here's another vote for "Plan 9 from Outer Space". Though I don't, in general, believe in the "it's-so-bad-it's-good" school of criticism, Plan 9 is an exception. It's so bad it's brilliant. It's perfection times -1. Change anything, anything, no matter how small, how trivial, and you would have a superior movie. Remember the interior of the aliens' spaceship? -- A bare room with a wooden table?... Or the "double" for Bela Lugosi who looks nothing at all like Lugosi?... Or the military man who tells his superior, "General, what kind of soldier would I be if I didn't believe in the things I saw and shot at?" Even "The Green Slime" looks like "Citizen Kane" by comparison. - Mike Eisenberg DUCK@OZ "Someday, someone will pass you in the dark, and you won't even know it, because they'll be from outer space!" ------------------------------ From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made Date: 18 Jan 85 06:19:51 GMT bloom@inmet.UUCP writes: >And here all along I'd been thinking that the Worst S-F Movie Ever >Made was "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" --- or does that not >even make it into the realm of s-f? I enjoyed "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes." I don't know if I'd call it sci-fi; it was more of a parady on "Jaws." Cheryl Nemeth All opinions expressed in this article are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Calma Company or my cats. "Life is a series of rude awakenings" R. V. Winkle [Robert Asprin] ------------------------------ From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss) Subject: Re: Worst SF movie Date: 17 Jan 85 04:38:21 GMT >> My vote for worst SF movie is "Horror of Party Beach." > "Zuma Beach". (with Miss Somers) Ok choices, but the all time worst must be: "Plan Nine From Outer Space" : Bela Lugosi dies during filming, he is replaced by a man 1/2 foot taller who constantly keeps a cape in front of his face. "The Creeping Terror" : Narrator: "John wondered what was in the space ship." John: "I wonder what's in this space ship." "Glen or Glenda" : Bela again, in a touching, shocking, revealing look at transvestites. There are, of course, others. But these are the best,..er.. worst, ...er.. (I like mail, too, and accept all flames.) -Michael "on the the Twilight Node" Weiss UUCP...!gondor!weiss - The opinions expressed herein are those of my superiors, and are not necessarily shared by the author. ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made Date: 22 Jan 85 03:05:50 GMT Without doubt, at least to me, the worst science fiction movie has to be "Santa Claus Conquer the Martians." As for "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes", I don't think that one should count; it was intended to be as bad as possible. John L. Templer University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jan 85 1203-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #26 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 26 Today's Topics: Books - Nourse & Zelazny, Music - Theme From COSMOS, Television - Space: 1999 (6 msgs) & The Adolescence of P1 (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Jan 85 9:43:57 EST From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: Alan Nourse One book by Dr. Nourse (pronounced "nurse") which is likely to get missed from many bibliographies is a non-sf work written under a pseudonym. The book is "Intern", written by "Doctor X", which was a highly controversial bestseller when it came out, chronicling the life of a medical intern, with many of the gory details. I read it a few years ago, long after its release, and from a modern viewpoint I couldn't see what all the fuss was about. An excellent book, but not one to incite controversy these days. ------------------------------ From: reed!schmidt@topaz (Alan Schmidt) Subject: Re: Zelazny novels on Amber? Date: 21 Jan 85 21:28:09 GMT > has any one heard anything about the Amber books that were rumored > to be in the works? > Jeremy Sanders You mean there are/will be MORE Amber books after _The_Courts_of_Chaos_? Forgive me, but I didn't like Dilvish, and I've been waiting for another _Changeling_ or Amber sequel. _Doorways_in_the_Sand_ is another fantastic book by the immortal author. I rather liked the perpetual undergraduate, probably because I do not want to leave the relative safety of college life and be forced to deal with the real world myself. -- Alan (..tektronix!reed!schmidt) ------------------------------ Date: 20-Jan-85 23:49 PST From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD From: Subject: Request for theme from COSMOS... I know it was once submitted to the digest but...I can't find my old references. Please send me any info you may have. Thanks, --Bi\\ ------------------------------ Date: Thu 17 Jan 85 10:31:15-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #19 On another topic, the shape-changing alien woman in "Space: 1999" was named Maya--the name of the Hindu/Buddhist goddess of illusion. Another version of her appears in Zelzny's greatest book, _Lord of Light_. Rich Alderson ARPA: Alderson@Score, Alderson@Sierra ------------------------------ From: ukma!sean@topaz (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: Space: 1999 Date: 18 Jan 85 09:05:26 GMT Catherine Schell played the role of Maya, who as orphaned on the Zooming Moon when her (decidedly) evil father managed to get their planet destroyed. There was no mention at all of mass conservation, although some interesting references to her superior mental powers were made. Her ability to change shapes was not explained in any detail. The change was instantaneous, and she had to have had some sort of previous contact (she couldn't make up a monster and become it). Although I didn't like the way they did up her eyebrows, I always thought she was cute. I thought she was cute in Return of the Pink Panther too. Sean ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery (the tame hacker on the North From: Coast)) Subject: Re: Space: 1999 Date: 19 Jan 85 23:16:25 GMT kevin@voder.UUCP writes: > The only thing I really had a hard time with, other than the > fact the moon must have been traveling at hyper-speed or falling > into space warps right and left) As I remember it, spacewarps played a large part in quite a few episodes. They went through one just before they got to Psychon (see below); they passed through a black hole as (I think) the third episode, surviving because they had a super gravity warp they devised as a result of their being blasted away in the first place (don't you just *love* it); they went through one while leaving some people behind inspecting an alien vessel (which just happened to have a spacewarp detector in it), et cetera. They also went through one just prior to returning to Earth every time they did return (but I'm not certain of that). Time was thrown off by these spacewarps, I believe. > was the alien women character in the second season who could > change her shape into anything. I can't remember her name > (something like Myra) but she was played by Catherine Schnell. I > just cannot accept Maia, played by Catherine SCHELL. > that a 110-120 pound person can change into a 200lb panther and > then into an insect! Something about conservation of mass and > energy. If mass and energy are truly the same then a 300lb > monster would have no energy left and a tiny fly would have so > much it probally couldn't contain it. I can (barely) see the massiveness question; although how a 120 lb insect could move, I know not... but what really threw me was the fact that she could transmute in the first place. How did she hold 120 lbs = 4.889e25 ergs (thank you, "units" :-) of energy together without turning herself (and the moon) into a mushroom cloud? Or were her shape changes reminiscent of a Tleilaxu Face Dancer? > I did like the designs of the Eagle Transporters and the Hawk > attack ships, I thought they looked quite realistic and the > concept of the cargo modules made sense, although you probally had > to be carefull about fancy manouvers if you wern't carrying a > cargo section as it must have strengthend the entire framework. Eccept that they always flew with SOME kind of module; the cargo module (plain), or the bomb module (red striped), or *something*. (Amazing what you can remember of rotten shows; it just proves the saying about bad news vs. good news...) --bsa Brandon Allbery @decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa (..ncoast!tdi1!bsa business) 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio 44131 +1 216 524 1416 (or what have you) Who said you had to be (a) a poor programmer or (b) a security hazard to be a hacker? ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery (the tame hacker on the North From: Coast)) Subject: Re: Space: 1999 Date: 19 Jan 85 03:31:46 GMT alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) writes: > The alien woman you refer to was named ''Mia'' (maybe it was > spelled Mya, I dunno, but it was pronounced ''Mie-ya''). Maia. (That was a low point; all the SF I could find at the time was Star Trek I was watching for the 6000th time, and that. Thankfully, we started going to a larger library soon after that (my mother needed her fix of SF too, it runs in the family). --bsa Brandon Allbery @decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa (..ncoast!tdi1!bsa business) 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio 44131 +1 216 524 1416 (or what have you) Who said you had to be (a) a poor programmer or (b) a security hazard to be a hacker? ------------------------------ From: reed!schmidt@topaz (Alan Schmidt) Subject: Re: Space: 1999 Date: 21 Jan 85 20:46:15 GMT Since Maia COULD fly when she became honey bees, and her leaves didn't plunge to the ground when she became ordinary house plants, the conservation of mass wasn't in her physics book. So.... How about some applied TARDIS technology? (Don't get on my case, Who-ites, I know this isn't exactly 100% right.) Maia projects herself into a fourth dimension, and then reprojects herself into this dimension with altered size and mass. This also conveniently explains how her considerable intelligence would fit into those tiny, tiny brains (well, not really, but pretend it does). She DID believe in conversation of life (she couldn't change into anything which wasn't living, even if she thought it was). That I CAN'T fathom. -- Alan (..tektronix!reed!schmidt) ------------------------------ From: rochester!sher@topaz (David Sher) Subject: Re: Space: 1999 Date: 24 Jan 85 05:25:29 GMT The thing that most struck me about the early shows of 1999 was the shoot first and ask questions later philosophy they operated on (My whole family collectively decided not to watch the later shows). Whenever they ran into anything strange their first response seemed to be send out some eagles and shoot it down. This might have been understandable except for the fact that what ever they sent the eagles against was either 1. totally dead 2. So advanced as to make their eagles look like a tonka truck (Captain, rather badly constructed space craft using reaction engines are tickling our sheilds with low powered laser weapons. Kirk: set phasers to stun, we don't want to hurt those primatives) The only reason the eagles survived was that the superadvanced types they tried to shoot down usually didn't recognize them as weapons. -David Sher ------------------------------ From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: movie request Date: 18 Jan 85 13:44:53 GMT > From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) > I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The > Adolescence of P1". Does anyone know anything about it? The book > was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the net > and eventually attains consciousness. It was unusually accurate > for this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames". Yes, I saw it last week on a local PBS station. It was 60 minutes long. It was a fun, low budget affair but by no means was it much more "accurate" than "Wargames" was. Fred Avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio ARPA: grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sun 20 Jan 85 20:05:32-EST From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Re: The Adolescence of P-1 Indeed, there was a production loosely based on the book "The Adolescence of P-1". It was televised on the "Wonder Works" Public Television show. It looked to be made in Canada and was apparently shot on-location there. I was not very happy with the result - in the original book, P-1's creator was an adult systems programmer who wrote P-1 earlier in his life when in college at the University of Waterloo. In the film version, P-1's writer is given as a high-school kid who is known by the name of "hacker" (no doubt inspired by all of the recent media hype over high-school crackers). The movie version was also remarkably deficient in details and glossed over many aspects of the original book. Still, it was obviously an adaptation of the original. --Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 22 Jan 1985 10:24:37-PST From: augeri%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Query about The Adolescence of P1 >From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) >I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The >Adolescence of P1". Does anyone know anything about it? The book >was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the net and >eventually attains consciousness. It was unusually accurate for >this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames". There was a movie on the Boston PBS station (WGBH, channel 2) last week titled "Hide and Seek" that was based on the book "The Adolescence of P1". The movie was done by the Canadian Broadcasting Company (don't remember the year), had a cast of unknowns (probably Canadian), and was only about 55 minutes long. The ending credits of the movie gave credit to the book for the story. In the movie the program was created by a high school hacker playing a game that looks like "Life". The kid explains to a friend that the patterns being generated by the game looked like computer programs. So, he tried to run one of these patterns that he had saved, and bingo, he had created this incredibly intelligent program. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the book and the movie, but from my memories of the book, the creation of the program was more believable than the way it was depicted in the movie, even though I can't remember the details of the book. In the movie, the program gets into a computer that is controlling a nuclear power plant and creates a situation where the reactor is about to go critical. In the book I remember the program getting into some super-powerful defense computer, but my memory fades after that. In both stories the attempt to destroy the program fails, so the program is still around somewhere... Mike Augeri UUCP: {your_path_to_decwrl}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!augeri ARPA: augeri%regina.dec@decwrl.arpa ENET: regina::augeri ------------------------------ From: orca!davidl@topaz (David Levine) Subject: Re: movie request Date: 21 Jan 85 21:42:15 GMT avolio@grendel.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) writes: >> From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) >> I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The >> Adolescence of P1". Does anyone know anything about it? The >> book was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the >> net and eventually attains consciousness. It was unusually >> accurate for this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames". >Yes, I saw it last week on a local PBS station. It was 60 minutes >long. It was a fun, low budget affair but by no means was it much >more "accurate" than "Wargames" was. The PBS children's anthology series "WonderWorks" has a program called "Hide and Seek" which was based on "The Adolescence of P-1." At least, that's what it said in the credits. Actually, the only thing the two have in common is P-1's first line, which is CALL GREGORY. P-1 They've changed the locale from Silicon Valley to Canada (required by Canadian content legislation, I guess). They've changed the hero from a wiseass computer professional to a socially immature high school student. They've changed P-1's origin from a deliberate system cracking program to an accidental outgrowth of a version of Life on a Commodore Pet. The entire plot has been changed out of all recognition. In the TV show, the hero first discovers that his creation has gotten out of hand while he's cracking the school computer to change his girlfriend's grades (sound familiar?). There are supposed system professionals who do nothing but spout nonsense peppered with phrases from the Hacker's Dicitonary. The ending is incomprehensible. Yet, it entertains. Viewed as a juvenile, I think it succeeds. I can mildly recommend the book "The Adolescence of P-1", although it's dated. I can also mildly recommend "Hide and Seek" to those under, say, 16. However, "Hide and Seek" is just another "War Games" cash-in that bears little if any resemblance to the book upon which it is supposedly based. I suspect that the author of the book had no say whatsoever in the story of the TV show. David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl) [UUCP] (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 1985 15:05:15-EST From: rachiele@NADC Subject: re: movie request Cc: redford@doctor.DEC, @, decwrl.arpa@NADC The show was on Wonderworks, which is a PBS offering for children. I happened to be watching it with my kids one day. The plot is about a computer program which becomes conscious and when threatened, actually commits a murder and tries to take over computer resources controling a nuclear power plant. I don't know the title, but the computer program was named P1. Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jan 85 1306-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #27 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 25 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Eddings & Kuttner (3 msgs) & Wyndham & Sub-creation & Female Protagonists, Films - Gwendoline & Worst SF Film (8 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pyuxhh!kurt@topaz (K A Gluck) Subject: Books to read - a good new author Date: 22 Jan 85 05:53:10 GMT I have just finished my second book by Robert Asprin and all I can say is that it is very very funny. I have read: Another fine myth : Myth conceptions I would never want to ruin them by even beginning to describe them in any sort of detail. Check out chapter 13 of the second book, and laugh (but dont read ahead). The books are of course comedy sword and sorcery. If you liked Divlish the damned you should like these. Kurt Gluck SPL 1c273a Bell Communications Research Inc 6 Corporate Place Piscataway NJ, 08854 ihnp4!pyuxhh!kurt (201)-561-7100 x2023 ------------------------------ From: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight) Subject: re:Castle of Wizardry Date: 19 Jan 85 19:30:07 GMT > Path: harvard!se > Subject: Eddings' Belgariad > > Castle of Wizardry--Belgarath's tower? This one isn't obvious. Let's try that one more time.... Castling is a maneuveur in which the rook and king (almost) exchange places. The title may be referring to Garions sudden ascendancy to the Rivan throne. One moment he's Garion and the next he's Belgarion, king of the Western Kingdoms. D. Bartholomew ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz Subject: Re: Here is the plot. What is the title Date: 20 Jan 85 07:17:00 GMT > The main character repeatly gets drunk and suffers from blackouts. > During his blackout periods he manages to invent machines. When > he recovers from these blackouts he doesn't remember inventing the > machines and spends his sober periods trying to find out what they > do. The Gallagher stories were collected under the title "Robots Have No Tails" (or something pretty close to that) in the late 50's. It's the first SF I read, so I remember it with special fondness. I confess I can't recall whether the author, Henry Kuttner, is a pseudonym for Lewis Padgett or vice versa... scott preece ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece ------------------------------ From: ratex!mck@topaz (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan) Subject: Re: Re: Drunken Inventor -- Errata and Addendum Date: 21 Jan 85 22:12:00 GMT The title is *Robots Have No Tails* (not 'Tales'); it's by Henry Kuttner (whose pseudonym was 'Lewis Padgett' and who was married to C L Moore); it was last published by Lancer Books (1560 Broadway, New York, NY 10036). I got it back when a standard paperback went for $.95; I recently spotted a copy in a used book store (which a friend promptly bought under my recommendation). Read 'Time Locker' first; it's actually the first one written. It may seem cliche; it wasn't when it was written! Anyone interested in a campaign to get more of Kuttner back in print? TNX, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan 9120 Hawthorn Pt Westerville, OH 43081-9605 ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Re: Drunken Inventor -- Yes, Let's get him back in print! Date: 22 Jan 85 18:44:05 GMT Sure and I haven't read a Gallagher story in years and years. I'm all for a Kuttner revival. "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jan 85 02:19:04 PST (Sat) Subject: John Wyndham From: Alastair Milne I recently finished re-reading The Days of the Triffids, after a lapse of so many years that most of the story was once again new to me. It reminded me forcefully of the strength of Wyndham's style, which seemed to waver remarkably little from book to book. What I find hard to understand is why Wyndham seems to be so little read or discussed these days. In particular, what with the proliferation of nuclear disaster stories and the general fear of nuclear accidents, you'd have thought that The Chrysalids would be popular reading about now. One of the best, certainly the most touching, disaster stories I've ever read. And several of his books have been filmed (though the films, regrettably, are named differently from the books). He was (I assume "was" is correct now) a very fine author, and a leading light in sf. How soon we forget. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thu 17 Jan 85 10:31:15-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #19 >I don't see why an author has to give you a complete glossary and >gazetteer to a fictional universe. As long as he knows what is >happening, according to a thesis by Tolkien, the world he is >describing will seem real enough. (I don't recall the term Tolkien >used to describe the flavor of realism got by placing a story in a >well-thought-out setting--do any of you?). The term is "sub-creation." See Tolkien's essay, 'On Faery Stories,' reprinted in _The Tolkien Reader_. Rich Alderson ARPA: Alderson@Score, Alderson@Sierra ------------------------------ From: fluke!moriarty@topaz (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Re: female protaganists Date: 21 Jan 85 21:02:18 GMT My goodness, how about C.J. Cherryh's "Morgaine" or "Chanur" books? "...Who'z dat guy?" "That's Berhard Goetz." "Bern-hard Getzz? De jazz musician?" Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 85 21:18 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: More on Gwendoline Here is more information about "The Perils of Gwendoline", from /The Comics Journal/, Number 95 (February, 1985): It cost $5 million and opened in Paris in February (1984), the writer/director is Just Jaeckin, and it is described as "an adventure tale that sends Gwen (California actress Tawny Kitaen) from her Paris convent to the Far East, escaping with friends Willard (Kansas-born Brent Huff) and Beth (Zazou) from cannibals, sand-storms, and a villainous Amazon (Bernadette Lafont)." The article didn't mention a US release. They also mention that the bondage in the original strip is not present in the film. Mark ------------------------------ From: browngr!jfh@topaz (John "Spike" Hughes) Subject: Re: Worst SF movie Date: 23 Jan 85 01:31:17 GMT I think the worst SF film ever made was "Sins of the Fleshapoids". I think it suffices to say that one of the lead roles was played by a vacuum cleaner. The crowd at the UC theatre (in Berkeley), which will watch almost anything, got to see this between 'A Boy and his Dog' and "Barbarella". It hadn't been playing more than about 3 minutes when people started screaming at the projectionist to turn it off. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 23 Jan 85 22:30:32-EST From: Janice Subject: Bad sf films The most recently-made bad one I saw was SATURN III, with Farrah Fawcett and Kirk Douglas, which could have used the slogan, "In space, no one can hear you yawn." However, my two favorite nominees: 1) ROBOT MONSTER, also known as MONSTER FROM MARS and various other titles. This incredibly cheaply-made film featured an invading alien named Ro-Man who was played by an actor in a gorilla suit wearing a diving helmet. Footage was used over and over to represent different scenes, thus leading to some interesting continuity problems. Ro-Man had some sort of alien device in the cave where he was living which produced soap bubbles. *SPOILER, though there isn't much to spoil* The film-makers actually had the gall to end the film with "And then the boy wakes up." Stephen King has warned that it can be dangerous to watch this film stoned (an experiment I have not made). He said if the film had been longer than 75 minutes, he would have died from laughing too hard. This film really is worth seeing as a camp classic. 2) JUST IMAGINE. Just imagine a science fiction musical. With terrible music. Atrocious acting. A ridiculous romance. An utterly stupid, supposedly comic person revived from the past. Impossible plot features. Unfunny humor. (Example: Babies come from machines. The person from the past, seeing this, says something like "Give me the good old days.") And then, to top it all off, a visit to Mars, where everyone is twins (one good, one bad) and wears silly tribal outfits and ... I can't go on. I could recommend this as camp, but only to those with extremely strong stomachs. The singing alone is enough to cause you to lose your last several meals. ------------------------------ From: teklds!larryg@topaz (Larry Gardner) Subject: chug's comment Date: 21 Jan 85 23:52:55 GMT Please tell me why you thought Fox and the Hound was a flop? I thought it was one of the best movies I have EVER seen!!! The plot or the moral of the story was fantastic and I am a dog fanatic anyway. karen alias larryg ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz (Davis Tucker) Subject: Another REALLY bad SF movie - "Trog" Date: 21 Jan 85 22:03:33 GMT Does anyone remember "Trog", starring Joan "Wire Coathangers!" Crawford? Talk about baaaaad - ugh! I usually *like* bad SF movies, but I could barely get through this one. Marvelous. Mommie Dearest plays a scientist in England when some caveman starts to terrorize the local populace, she tries to make everyone see reason (I love irony), the caveman finally comes out of his cave and tears apart what must probably be the most stupid cameraman in the world... Then they capture him and try to teach him to talk, but some bad guys let him loose and he goes on a very tacky tour of the local hotspots... Sigh. They just don't make 'em like they used to. And talk about horrible costumes! The Troglodyte was a normal person except for this really cheap gorilla-type mask like you can buy in any Safeway or Target during Halloween for 20 bucks, and a little fake hair pasted onto his arm (which came off at one point when he was sticking his hands through the bars of his cage). Sample dialog (which is what *really* made this movie what it is): Joan - "What you have here is a living example of our ancestors - in short, this.. is... Trog!" ("Trog" pronounced "Trog-GUH") Bad guy to other bad guy - "Sure, you're a man of science - but how do you feel, spending your career working for a *woman*?" Trog - "Unnnngh!" It's movies like this which answer the eternal question - "What did they do with washed-up has-been ex-stars before 'Love Boat'?" Davis Tucker AT&T Information Systems Denver, CO ------------------------------ From: uokvax!emks@topaz Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made Date: 20 Jan 85 18:54:00 GMT >> It was called "The Wizard of Mars", and had to be the WORST >> s-f movie ever made, bar none. > >And here all along I'd been thinking that the Worst S-F Movie Ever >Made was "The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" --- or does that not >even make it into the realm of s-f? No, you've got it all wrong. "The Creeping Terror" truely has to be the *worst* sf flick made. It's really enjoyable. Interesting juxtaposition... kurt ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 24 January 1985, 08:17-PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Worst SF Movie > From: Michael Eisenberg > > Although it's kind of a cliched choice, here's another vote for > "Plan 9 from Outer Space". Though I don't, in general, believe in > the "it's-so-bad-it's-good" school of criticism, Plan 9 is an > exception. It's so bad it's brilliant. It's perfection times -1. > Change anything, anything, no matter how small, how trivial, and > you would have a superior movie. C'mon! How could you improve on the line "...is dead! Murdered! And one thing is for sure - somebody's responsible!" Pure poetry. > From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss) > > Ok choices, but the all time worst must be: > "Glen or Glenda" : Bela again, in a touching, shocking, > revealing look at transvestites. Naw, not Bela. The part of Glen(da) was portrayed by Edward Wood, director of this opus as well as Plan 9. > From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer) > Without doubt, at least to me, the worst science fiction movie has > to be "Santa Claus Conquer the Martians." As for "Attack of the > Killer Tomatoes", I don't think that one should count; it was > intended to be as bad as possible. SCCtM also has the distinction of bringing to the screen for the first time the inimitable Pia Zadora. ------------------------------ From: ihlpm!rfish@topaz (r.l. fishell) Subject: Re: Another REALLY bad SF movie - "Trog" Date: 22 Jan 85 17:57:28 GMT > Does anyone remember "Trog", starring Joan "Wire Coathangers!" > Crawford? Talk about baaaaad - ugh! I usually *like* bad SF > movies, but I could barely get through this one. The whole point to "Trog" was its awfulness. It's supposed to make you laugh, not throw up, and sometimes it succeeds. On the same note, a more recent release, "Swamp Thing" accomplishes the same effect. I remember seeing a movie I think was called "Schlock" that was a more deliberate attempt at humor in the "bad monster movies" genre. Another called "Alligator" is one I can't quite figure out, was it satire, or just unintentional humor? Now, what I'd like to see is Woody Allen doing to "Godzilla" what he did in "What's Up, Tiger Lily?" Bob Fishell ------------------------------ From: orca!davidl@topaz (David Levine) Subject: Re: Another REALLY bad SF movie - "Trog" Date: 23 Jan 85 19:09:37 GMT Let us not forget John ("See You Next Wednesday") Landis' homage/parody to "Trog", called "Schlock." "Schlock" was the Schlockanthropus, played (as I recall) by Rick Baker, later to portray Dino De Laurentiis' King Kong and many other great apes before graduating to make-up professional. "Schlock" has basically the same plot as "Trog," except that it's played for laughs. At the beginning of the film, a scientist (wearing a protective helmet made of a piece of air-conditioner duct) is descending into Schlock's cave on a rope when Schlock appears from another cave entrance. The workman holding the rope naturally lets go, sending the scientist plummeting into the hole, never to be seen again. The movie is full of "Ariplane"-style humor. In the end, the Schlockanthropus is killed by a line-up of National Guardsmen reminscent of the line-up at Kent State. The last scene (after the credits) shows the scientist finally crawling out of the cave with a baby Schlockanthropus, promising a "Son of Schlock" (which, unfortunately, never materialized). This little film came out years and years ago, and it seems to have vanished without a trace. Perhaps memory has made it seem better than it actually was. The last time I saw anything to do with it was a poster at the theatre at the beginning of Michael Jackson's "Thriller," along with posters from all of Landis' other films. David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl) [UUCP] (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jan 85 1329-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #28 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 25 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Eddings & May & Nourse & Riddell & Vance & White & Zelazny, Films - 2010 (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wlcrjs!rhesmith@topaz (Richard H. E. Smith II) Subject: Re: Books to read - a good new author Date: 23 Jan 85 03:50:19 GMT kurt@pyuxhh.UUCP (K A Gluck) writes: >I have just finished my second book by Robert Asprin and all I can >say is that it is very very funny. >I have read: Another fine myth > : Myth conceptions >The books are of course comedy sword and sorcery. I'm disappointed with the paperback editions now in the bookstores (I can't remember just who the publisher is just now). These books were available from Starblaze, a small publisher that does trade size SF mostly, with silly illos by Phil Foglio. The mass market pbs have lousy standard fantasy covers... you know the kind I mean... all the characters illustrated look kind of like Friar Tuck! Oh well. Dick Smith ..ihnp4!wlcrjs!rhesmith ------------------------------ Subject: Eddings' Belgariad - Specifically the fifth book From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (M.A. Murphy) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 1985 20:02 EST This is incredibly trivial, but I was wondering if anyone out there might no why Eddings changed the name of the last book in the series from ENCHANTED END GAME to ENCHANTERS END GAME. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 85 15:43:09 PST (Thursday) From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Review: Julian May << THE SAGA OF THE PLIOCENE EXILE >> by Julian May < The Many-Colored Land > < The Golden Torc > < The Nonborn King > < The Adversary > (pub: Houghton Mifflin - Boston) Whether you knew it or not, the Saga is what you've been waiting for. These books are not merely fantastic, but quite wonderfully superlative. The following review contains a little SPOILER material, but it is stuff that you find out very early in the first volume. The Saga begins in the future/present of the 21st/22nd century. By this time, humans have begun to develop their latent genentic potential for abilities referred to as Metapsychic functions. Early operants (metapsychics) send a plea for help (Save us from the Bomb!) to the stars, and discover that the Galaxy is populated by other races, all metapsycically operant. Humanity is welcomed by the coadunate races and nurtured toward metapsychic maturity and Unity. About the same time, a certain Professor Guderian discovers an obscure phenomenon that allows him to build a one-way portal to Pliocene Europe, six million years ago. Many humans, unable to accept life in the Galactic Milieu, escape to Exile in the idyllic past of the Pliocene. Exiled humans quickly discover that Pliocene Europe is dominated by the Tanu, a race of aliens who have fled their galaxy for religious exile on Earth. The Tanu all wear golden torcs that make them metapsycically operant. These they give to metapsycically latent humans in return for... servitude. These few chapters bring you to the point where the good stuff really begins. Julian May provides lovable, hatable, believable and unforgetable characters. The plot is quite surprising and strangely satisfying. May adeptly avoids references to "hard science" (where she is not strong), and so presents a wondrous but believable technology, both of matter and of mind. Her world is fantastic and dangerous, a place where almost anything can happen, and usually does. I highly recommend these books to anyone who can read (or could learn to). Don't put this off and risk losing your vision in the mean time. Note: The tales of the Coadunate Galactic Milieu pre-continue in << The Milieu Trilogy >> < Jack the Bodiless > < Diamond Mask > < Magnificat > Enjoy yourselves; I did. --Josh "Pain is just God's way of hurting you." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 85 15:26 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Nourse titles After looking over the titles of Nourse's novels I noticed that one of them was titled Bladerunner. When the movie of the same name was first out, I heard a rumor that Ridley Scott had bought the rights to the name Bladerunner from a book about the interstellar smuggling of medical supplies. Since the term Bladerunner never occured in Dick's Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, this sounded plausible. I was slightly disappointed because I thought that it sounded like a wonderful premise and would probably never get made into a movie because of this. Now I know that this rumor was true, and who wrote Bladerunner. I'm going out to find it and read it. Thanks for the pointer. Brett Slocum <...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum> ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 Jan 85 13:21:00-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Knight Moves MicroReview I just read KNIGHT MOVES, by, I think, Walter Jon Riddell (whom I have never heard of). It reminds me very much of CALL ME CONRAD by Zelazny. The style is very close to Zelazny's, though somewhat inferior, as I see it, or at least extremely variable. There are some very good spots, but there are a few stretches where a bit of tedium sets in. I won't include any material which might be considered a spoiler, but the main theme is that of change in society, along lines previously explored to some degree by Dickson in his Childe Cycle and others with Future Histories that concern themselves with periods in between the development of slowboat interstellar travel and FTL (Niven comes to mind immediately). Add to that a dash of the zany ultra-dimensional weirdness to be found in some of the books by Rudy Rucker and you pretty much have a stylistic description of the book. I recommend it though, as, so far, the best of the month's crop of paperbacks. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 Jan 85 10:57:57-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: Magnus Ridolph To: stever@CIT-VAX.ARPA The definitive collection seems to be "The Many Worlds of Magnus Ridolph" from DAW, containing: The Kokod Warriors The Unspeakable McInch The Howling Bounders The King of Thieves The Spa of the Stars Coup de Grace The Sub-Standard Sardines To B Or Not to C Or To D If there are any M.R. stories other than these, I'd appreciate pointers to them. "The Worlds of Jack Vance", Ace, also contains The Kokod Warriors, The King of Thieves, and Coup de Grace. Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ From: ark!koppe@topaz (Adri) Subject: Re: Book Identification -- "Star Surgeon" by Nourse Date: 22 Jan 85 21:58:13 GMT _Star Surgeon_ by James White was published in 1963. This book is also about extraterrestials in hospitals. It is the second in a series of three books, the first one titled _Hospital Station_. The third title I have forgotten, but the books are highly recommended! Kees Huyser VU Amsterdam (the Netherlands) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 1985 10:09 EST From: Dean Sutherland Subject: Zelazny The recent discussion of Zelazny on the net inspired me to re-read some of my collection. If there is anyone out there who has not read Zelazny's "This Immortal" (also titled "...and call me Conrad") you should IMMEDIATELY beg, borrow, buy, steal, (or whatever) a copy and read it. It is a VERY VERY good book. I don't agree with Alderson@score, however. "This Immortal" is, in my opinion, clearly superior to "Lord of Light". Dean F. Sutherland Sutherland@Tartan.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: ihuxk!rs55611@topaz (Robert E. Schleicher) Subject: Re: 2010 bugs... Date: 15 Jan 85 18:44:13 GMT The monolith in 2001 was indeed found at Tycho, being christened Tycho Magnetic Anomaly 1, or TMA-1, as another poster stated. The reason someone remembered Clavius, is that Clavius was the crater where the lunar base was located, from which the expedition was sent via lunar rover to the Tycho site. The "reason" given for having the monolith at Tycho was that the prominent "rays" surrounding Tycho make it a very prominent lunar landmark. Clavius happens to be the nearst big landmark to Tycho, so that is where the base was placed (I believe Clavius is the largest crater on the moon, at least on the earth side.) Bob Schleicher ihuxk!rs55611 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Jan 85 21:02:55 PST (Mon) Subject: Re: 2010 (Oh no, not again) From: Alastair Milne > I have a few qualms about the discussion regarding 2010. Here > goes--- (and please forgive me, I haven't read the 2010 book yet) DO SO!!! Post haste!!! It is excellent. I would not have believed that 2001 could be followed by something worthy of it, yet Clarke did it. Therein lies part of my distress with the movie: I really feel it did not live up to the book. > 2) The end of the film really bit the big one, I'm sure you all > agree. Very anticlimactic, if you ask me. Hyams really blew it > by leading us on with the "Something Wonderful..." bit. It was > more like "Something Catastrophic...". An ultimatum from Bowman > would have been more reasonable; something along the lines of "If > you don't leave within 48 hours, you'll be neutronized" would make > me stop in my tracks faster than it "o-my-gosh, golly-o-gee > Something Wonderful..." No, I do *NOT* agree, in the least. Had it simply ended with the various Earth shots of the 2 suns (as I feared when watching it), with the end of the story dealing with no more than Earth, it would have done. But it didn't: it went out to Europa and showed the monolith patiently waiting, in a very beautiful scene. And this was very important, because it brought the story full circle, beginning again on Europa as it had 3 million years ago (I think that's the right figure) on the African veldt, at the start of 2001. *Anticlimactic??!!!* Jupiter goes nova, ignites, its moons get thawed out, producing vast changes in their climates, and you call it anticlimactic?? Of course it was something wonderful. A whole new group of worlds, especially Europa, given the chance to produce intelligent life. Even to the evolved Bowman, who still knew a distant personal feeling for his former compatriots, the good of this far surpassed the evil of the loss of the Leonov and the Discovery. > As Jupiter was imploding, I completely cringed at Dr. Floyd > yelling "hurry!" Obviously, the Leonov was up at cranking speed, > and could not go any faster. I would have preferred him to adopt > the Arthur Dent Attitude of Impending Doom, ie. "so this is it, > we're going to die." Although not a tension builder, it would be > more realistic. It would have been less realistic. In situations of great stress, the first thing to go in most people is logic. Maybe it would be logical to assume that Leonov was moving as fast as possible, or that Captain Orlova was doing everything she could, but do you really expect people expecting to die to think that way? > Finally, an implosion of Jupiter has to be able to cause > disasterous things to the Leonov and the Earth. Consider this- a > power that has the ability to create stars should also have the > power to shield selected objects from being annihilated by the > event. I don't think that this is unreasonable. They/he/she/it > would have at least computed the ramifications in advance of > actually making a sun (there was enough time to, over the course > of the millions of years of human development). Disastrous to Leonov, possibly, but Earth is an incredible distance from Jupiter, even at the closest points on their respective orbits. It would take the particles and radiation discharged from Jupiter a nice long time to reach Earth, by which point what's left of them (remember the inverse square law) would probably be deflected by or picked up in the Van Allen radiation belts and the magnetosphere. By the way, the movie really played up this point: short circuits, jolts, people going flying, the works. In the book, the expanding gas shell passes over Leonov without making any impression at all: only the radar can tell that it has now passed the ship. Of course, they make sure the ship is stern-on to Jupiter, to try to minimise radiation exposure. I see no logic in your "selectivity" argument. Somebody who bombs a building (or a city) has the ability to eliminate it, but he can seldom isolate an office which is to be spared. Don't forget: Jupiter was ignited by having the monoliths suck up its atmosphere and compress it, increasing the planet's density to the point where thermonuclear reactions could start. What place does that leave for protecting things in Jupiter's neighborhood? The monoliths are not the tools for selectivity. It seems clear that the aliens *did* compute the ramifications, which is why they did it. Where do you get "millions of years" from? They have been watching humanity for something like that, but Europa? TMA-2 was surely a relay for TMA-1, to let the aliens know that humanity had left its cradle. It was not monitoring Europa. The ignition of Jupiter seems to have been decided relatively recently. Besides, no matter how long the contemplation, how were they to know a couple of inhabited ships would be there at the time of ignition? And why would they care, with at least one more intelligent race to uplift? > 3) There is something else that no-one has mentioned (or is it in > the book?). What happened to SAL? The only hint of this in the > movie comes after HAL asks Dr. Chandra, "Will I Dream?". Dr. > Chandra replies, "I don't know..." Does this mean that he lost > SAL? Let's have some discussion about this. I don't know. As I recall, the book doesn't say. It seems reasonable to assume that SAL awaits Chandra on Earth, having contributed to his technique for restoring HAL. Actually, in the book, Chandra was moving to bigger and better things: even before entering hibernation for the return journey, he was starting the design of HAL 10,000. Would you believe that, after all that, I've got opinions of my own to state? Well, I have, but not now: this has got long enough already. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz Subject: Re: 2010 (Oh no, not again) Date: 28 Jan 85 05:25:00 GMT > ... Consider this- a power that has the ability to create stars >should also have the power to shield selected objects from being >annihilated by the event. Why? My astrophysical knowledge is lamentably thin, but I can imagine that there might be a simple way of taking an object like Jupiter, which is like a star in many respects, and adding mass and perhaps changing the element ratios a little to kick it over a threshold and ignite it. Why would that imply the ability to shield a fragile object that would be inside the surface of the resulting star? The processes involved in the former operation could be very slow moving (perhaps they'd been assembling mass since the first monolith was deposited for early man's benefit), the shielding operation is entirely different -- requiring rapid response and delicate operations. The only physical operations we see are on a fairly gross scale. scott preece ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jan 85 1357-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #29 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 26 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 29 Today's Topics: Books - Sucharitkul & Female Protagonists & Books That Would Make Good Films & Best SF Films - The Black Cauldron & Dune (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Jan 85 16:25:40 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Sucharitkul Hi! The recent traffic about Somtow Sucharitkul prompted me to read some of his stuff, and it is well worth reading. One query: how is his name pronounced? I can think of several variations: Lastname: su-CHAR-it-kul (the one I've been using) such-A-rit-kul SUCHA-rit-kul su-cha-RIT-kul SU-char-it-kul Firstname: SOME-toe some-TAU SAHM-toe SOAM-tau and numerous variations or different ones than the above... Can anyone who knows him, or who knows Thai, enlighten us? Will ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jan 85 11:21 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: female protagonists I agree that Tiana Highrider was an excellent female character, a real person with strengths and weaknesses. I would recommend all three books because the first two are very important to the plot continuity. The complete series is called The War of the Wizards, and it consists of The Demon in the Mirror, The Eyes of Sarsis, and The Web of the Spider. The covers done by Rowena are quite accurate, (though the cover of TDITM nevers occurs in the book). The world she inhabits is very good), somewhat Lankhmaresque (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser), with a good deal of detail. ------------------------------ From: rochester!stuart@topaz Subject: SF Books That Would Make Good Films Date: 25 Jan 85 04:49:12 GMT Since the "worst" SF movie discussion has gotten a lot of involvement, and everybody has their favorites for the "best", I would like to try something different. I propose we discuss those SF novels that have *not* been filmed which could be made into exceptionally good films. To start things off, I would like to nominate "Neuromancer". This is an extremely *visual* book, which is always a good basis for a film. We have already seen successful film treatments of a lot of the kinds of settings in the book. The grunginess of LA in "Bladerunner" and the artificial computer landscapes of "Tron" would serve as good models for the Chiba techno-slums and the "concensual hallucination" the computer cowboys play in. There's drugs, violence and the potential for a musical score by a hot popular band. These are always selling points. Most of the action is *real* action, as opposed to "Dune" (the book) where 80% of the action is inside somebody's head. You don't need to be a computer whiz to follow the plot. (enthuse, enthuse) Anyway, I'd start babbling here, so I'll stop instead. This is *not* the best SF book I've read recently, but it's good, and it would make a dynamite film. Alternatives? Discussion? Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!eder@topaz (Dani Eder) Subject: Re: Best SF ever Date: 22 Jan 85 21:06:26 GMT > Dune was rejected 13 times before being published. Pretty > amazing for a book that is undisputably the BEST SCIENCE FICTION > NOVEL EVER WRITTEN (not necessarily the most popular ; the Bible > still holds that title). > iddic!brucec I dispute your claim. Nightfall, by Isaac Asimov was voted the best short story, and the Foundation Trilogy, also by Asimov, the best longer work. The vote was by the members of the World SF Convention. The only other comparable selection might be if the Science Fiction Writers Association decided to vote on all time bests. Both groups give annual awards for best work of one year, the Hugos by the Worldcon, and the Nebulas by SFWA. I believe Dune won both, but that's only one year. Dani Eder / Boeing / ssc-vax!eder / Ad Astra! (To the Stars!) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 85 17:41:12 PST (Thu) Subject: Re: The *Black* Cauldron From: Alastair Milne > I suspect that the movie only covers this one book, since it is a > complete story in itself. I am a bit apprehensive about it, > though. I also loved the books, and I would hate to see Disney do > to them what it did to _Sword and the Stone_.. Lloyd Alexander > treats his characters intelligently (all right I know T. H. White > didn't) and I hope Disney gives them the same courtesy. > > Nan > (if they make Orwen, Orddu, and Orgoch into comic characters I will > KILL!) How about what Disney did to The Jungle Book and Winnie-the-Pooh? Hanging would have been too good. Alastair Milne (*no relation* to A. A. Milne) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jan 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "DUNE". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Having Dune by Halving Dune Date: 12 Jan 85 08:42:30 GMT Save Chani. Paul has got to have some kind of interest other than power. Of course if you save Chani the princess should stay also. On the other hand you have a point about the Emperor. His Highness was so totally unimpressive that I wouldn't have missed him at all. (Where in Dune did it say that he was a puppet of the Spacing Guild?) Following him into the sink are Gurney and Duncan. Their parts were so miniscule and unimportant that I almost missed Duncan's last stand (I didn't realize what was going on until after someone else said "Oh, that was Duncan.") On the gadget side, the person who thought of the weirding modules should be executed by them. Slowly. They removed almost all of the importance of the Fremen; essentially they became convenient warm bodies for Paul's neat new guns. _Dune_ was essentially about a battle; at least give the battle some kind of flavor. Ten seconds could be spent on the Saudaukar to at least give everyone an idea of why they were so feared. I don't think we needed to see Paul training on Caladan. Toss the spice harvester's destruction and rescue of the crew. Agreed, the Shadout Mapes wasn't necessary. Good effects when the Guild navigtor moved the 'liner, but totally worthless to the plot. There must be a better way to get background information to the audience than the intro they used. The rain at the end was mindless. Get rid of that scene right away. In short: less special effects, more character development and plot. Parting shot: I didn't like the way they handled the sandworms. I was impressed, but I wanted more. I wanted to see a greater size difference between run of the mill worms, the worm that Paul rode, and the worms at the end. I also couldn't stand the dialog. It sounded like a bad gothic novel. Because of that, and the shortness of everything, I hated the movie. I still have hopes that with the cut material it could be salvaged. Cheryl Nemeth All opinions are my own... ------------------------------ From: calmasd!cjn@topaz (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Dune Stillsuits Date: 13 Jan 85 06:34:49 GMT Does anyone know what material they used to make the Dune stillsuits? Cheryl Nemeth All opinions expressed in this article are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Calma Company or my cats. "Life is a series of rude awakenings" R. V. Winkle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jan 85 13:14:02 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #17 Stupid voice overs? I suppose you mean the "thoughts" of the characters. The movie would lose with out them. If you'd read the book, you'll see that this is Herbert's style. Try omitting all the stuff in italics. It would be silly if the characters conveyed their thoughts so that everyone else could hear them. -Ron ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!gs@topaz (Gordon Strong) Subject: Re: Dune Stillsuits Date: 15 Jan 85 06:01:59 GMT Assuming you meant what are the costumes were in the movie and not the "actual" ones in the book, they were made out of rubber. Source: "The Making of Dune". Apparently, quite a few extras passed out during filming due to wearing these silly costumes in the middle of the desert in Mexico. If they one had *real* ones... Gordon Strong {decvax!genrad, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gs GS@MIT-XX ------------------------------ From: sra%oddjob.UChicago.UUCP@topaz (Scott Anderson) Subject: Re: Dune rumor Date: 14 Jan 85 09:41:11 GMT > A persistent rumor informs me that in the original preview > showings of Dune the film was actually 3.75 hours long and has > since been cut back to 2.5. An article I read by Gene Siskel confirms that much of the original footage was not used, although I don't recall if he gave exact figures as to the amount which was dropped. He did say, however, that the whole thing may end up as a TV mini-series. Scott R. Anderson ihnp4!oddjob ------------------------------ From: iddic!brucec@topaz (Bruce W. Cheney) Subject: DOON (sic (also sick...but funny)) Date: 14 Jan 85 22:36:57 GMT If you have read Dune and seen the movie now you should read the parody: DOON by Ellis Weiner. I found it to be hilarious, especially if the original book is fresh in your mind. In it, Pall Agamemnides is suspected of being the "Kumquat HaagenDasz", the desired result of the Boni Maroni breeding scheme. The parody has jest within jest within jest. Certainly the original Dune was "futuristic", but not by much. The parallels between oil and melange, Arab (moslem) and fremen, etc. seem quite obvious now, but from an early 1960's perspective they were prophetic of events of the next two decades. For a good BS session, try comparing Paul to Ayatollah Khomeini, with the Shah of Iran as the PadiSHAH Emperor SHAdam IV. How did Herbert know that was going to happen? Psycho-history? pSHAH !!!! Dune was rejected 13 times before being published. Pretty amazing for a book that is undisputably the BEST SCIENCE FICTION NOVEL EVER WRITTEN (not necessarily the most popular ; the Bible still holds that title). iddic!brucec ------------------------------ From: teklds!larryg@topaz (Larry Gardner) Subject: Dune Date: 14 Jan 85 20:41:18 GMT Is Dune really as gross as I have heard? I mean blood and gore. karen alias larryg ------------------------------ From: ag4@pucc-h (Angus Greiswald the fourth) Subject: What's wrong with Herbert??? Date: 14 Jan 85 17:39:42 GMT I'm still trying to figure out how Frank Herbert comes off saying that every scene in the movie Dune is completely faithful to the book. One of the stronger examples I can think of is the scene where the "third stage" guild navigator visits the Emperor and at the end tells him to take care of the problem or he will be put in some kind of torture device. Huh? Where'd that come from? In one of the later books in the trilogy (?) there's even an excerpt from the Guild training manual that states that the guild is strictly a parasitic organization that will never have or use power. BTW, does anybody know whether those silly "wierding modules" were in the book or not? I remember the wierding room and that the Duke's men were receiving some special training on Caladan, but nothing about modules. P.S. If you have the time, try (re)reading Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. It is interesting how many of the background and/or visual details that they used in the movie actually came from these books. Jeff Lewis {decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!lewie ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!loverso@topaz (John Robert LoVerso) Subject: Re: Having Dune by Halving Dune Date: 17 Jan 85 07:17:00 GMT > Toss the spice harvester's destruction and rescue of the crew. > Cheryl Nemeth I thought one of the more subtle points (but very relevant) was that Paul's father cared more about the men inside the harvester rather than the harvester or the spice they had collected. In the end of the book (right after the big battle) Paul asks about how much destruction to the house there was, and somebody (Gurney, i think) remarks that his father would have cared more about the men lost. This would seem to be a big lead on into the Jihad that follows and to the billions killed by it, in _Dune Messiah_. John Robert LoVerso @ SUNY Buffalo (716-636-3004) LoVerso%Buffalo@CSNET-RELAY -or- ..!{watmath|rocksanne}!sunybcs!loverso ------------------------------ From: ea!jejones@topaz Subject: *Dune* and Monty Python trivia Date: 5 Jan 85 19:45:00 GMT Speaking of *Dune*, I was rereading the book to make sure I was up on all the places where the movie differed from the book, and was gratified to find that "Galacian Girls," the lay that Gurney Halleck sang at the beginning of the book, fits well with the song of the Philosophers of the University of Wallamaroo in the Monty Python sketch. Does anyone know whether some enterprising filksinger has added lyrics to this song, and whether they fit the Philosopher's Song as well, if they exist? James Jones ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz Subject: Re: Having Dune by Halving Dune Date: 22 Jan 85 03:35:00 GMT > I thought one of the more subtle points (but very relevant) was > that Paul's father cared more about the men inside the harvester > rather than the harvester or the spice they had collected. In the > end of the book (right after the big battle) Paul asks about how > much destruction to the house there was, and somebody (Gurney, i > think) remarks that his father would have cared more about the men > lost. Actually the parallel is even closer. The exchange comes after the fremen have captured Gurney's smugglers and their harvester, killing half the smugglers in the process. Paul says it's a shame they couldn't have saved the carrier, too, and Gurney replies that his father would have said it was a shame they couldn't have saved the men. scott preece ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz Subject: Re: Having Dune by Halving Dune Date: 4 Feb 85 05:27:00 GMT > .... His Highness was so totally unimpressive that I wouldn't have > missed him at all. (Where in Dune did it say that he was a puppet > of the Spacing Guild?) p488, Ace 17261 Paul turned back to look at the Emperor, said: "When they permitted you to mount your father's throne, it was only on the assurance that you'd keep the spice flowing. You've failed them, Majesty. Do you know the consequences?" scott preece ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jan 85 1302-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #30 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 30 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Asprin & Kuttner & Sucharitkul (2 msgs), Films - Perils of Gwendoline & Worst SF Movie (4 msgs), Music - Cosmos (3 msgs), Television - Terrahawks & The Adolescence of P1 (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: uiucdcs!kaufman@topaz Subject: Re: So Long, and here's my theories Date: 23 Jan 85 16:23:00 GMT Come on! There's no reason why Marvin must be dead if the series continues. After all, he claims he's been sent through time by Arthur, Ford, & company enough to be quite a few times older than the universe. The first three books don't contain enough to justify this statement, so we can easily conclude that they could have future meetings with a younger Marvin in forthcoming books. Maybe Marvin at several points in his lifespan will be at the same place and time. Can you imagine dealing with several Marvins at once? How depressing! Ken Kaufman (uiucdcs!kaufman) ------------------------------ From: boris@mit-athena.ARPA (Boris N Goldowsky) Subject: Re: Books to read - a good new author Date: 27 Jan 85 20:28:51 GMT The paperback version of Asprin's _Myth_ books are published by the Donning Co., in Norfolk. The first two, _Another Fine Myth_ and _Myth Conceptions_ are illustrated by Polly and Kelly Freas, whereas _Myth Directions_ and _Hit or Myth_ are illustrated by Phil Foglio. (I just happened to have them sitting next to my terminal...) --boris ------------------------------ From: wlcrjs!rhesmith@topaz (Richard H. E. Smith II) Subject: Re: Re: Drunken Inventor -- Yes, Let's get him back in print! Date: 24 Jan 85 10:26:48 GMT rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes: >Sure and I haven't read a Gallagher story in years and years. I'm >all for a Kuttner revival. You sf-lovers readers have no sense of time. If I'm reading this stuff right, Henry Kuttner died in 1958. What I'm reading is the appreciation of C.L.Moore who was one of the guests of honor at Denvention II, the 1981 World Science Fiction Convention. C.L.Moore was married to Kuttner; she collaborated with him extensively, altho she was a fine writer in her own right as well. The Denvention program book describes the output of their collaboration as "beyond our means to list everything", and limits itself to 1/2 page of very tiny print of Moore's own works. Some interesting quotes from Bob Bloch's appreciation: "That's when I discovered firsthand just how closely you two collaborated--to a point where he'd lave the typewriter and you'd take his place, picking up the story exactly where he'd left off, and without even exchanging a word about it. Partnership? It was a bloody miracle." "Hank's death in 1958 was the end of an era; not just for you but for the science fiction field." I did a four hour shift of "guest of honor escort" for Denvention. This onerous duty consisted of having breakfast with C.L.Moore, and escorting her around the art show. The only hard thing I had to do was drop her off at an autograph session, and that only because I was having fun. So excuse this small outrush of information, please. Summary, for those whoforgot why they're reading this: 1) Henry Kuttner is dead. No more Gallagher stories. 2) C.L.Moore, one of the early women SF writers, collaborated with him often. She's now a nice old lady. Thanks for your patience. Dick Smith ..ihnp4!wlcrjs!rhesmith ------------------------------ From: rgs@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA (Robert Stockton) Subject: Re: Sucharitkul Date: 27 Jan 85 13:08:09 GMT I have talked with Somtow on several occasions and heard his name pronounced quite often and it seems to be consistently pronounced as SOAM-tau su-cha-RIT-kul. On the other hand, I believe he has stated that his last name may also be pronounced JONES. -Robert Stockton Robert Stockton ARPA: rgs@CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA UUCP: ...!seismo!cmu-cs-k!rgs ...!seismo!rgs@CMU-CS-SPICE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 85 20:37 MST From: "Ronald B. Harvey" Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul (pronunciation) Pretty close: SAHM-tau su-cha-RIT-kul Not a very heavy accent in either case. He told me that even a Thai person could not look at his name and decide how to pronounce it. You have to see it written in the native language in order to do that. Also, since Thai is a sing-song language, we can only attempt to reproduce it... If you ever catch him at a con, try to go out to dinner with him, or otherwise spend time with him. He has many interesting stories to tell about his life, Thai culture, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 Jan 85 15:21:02-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Perils of Gwendoline I received some copies of the promotional poster for the immediate theatrical release of "The Perils of Gwendoline". Here is the text of the letter that accompanied it. "The Perils of Gwendoline", a Samuel Goldwyn Company release, is Just Jaeckin's latest feature-- a fantasy/adventure film inspired by the infamous comic strip, "The Adventures of Sweet Gwendoline," created by John Willie. Willie began his kinky bondage strip in the late '40's and completed the last episodes by the mid-'50's. Just Jaeckin, well-known for his filmic creation of "Emmanuelle", as well as his adaptations of "The Story of O" and "Lady Chatterly's Lover", wrote and directed "Gwendoline". "We simply took the basic premise-- a beautiful young girl caught up in dangerous situations -- and wrote our own story," explains Jaeckin. "It is nothing but a fantasy, pure and simple." But what a fantasy! This R-raged film ultimately ventures into an underground kingdom of women never before confronted by the likes of Indiana Jones or any of his recent carbon copies! The French production traveled to exotic locations such as the jungle rivers of the Phillippine Islands, the desert coast of Morocco near Agadir, the giant caves of the Bordeaux province in Southwest France, and finally to the impressive, stylistically- built sets at the Billancourt Studios in Paris. The film stars Tawny Kitaen as the provocative Gwendoline. The 23-year-old American most recently appeared as the beautiful, but innocent, fiancee' of Tom Hanks in "Bachelor Party". The story's rugged soldier-of-fortune, Willard, is played by American Brent Huff, an up-and-coming actor who recently completed the action/adventure "Deadly Warriors", as well as a movie centering around a tough detective. The "Gwendoline" film poster is the creation of one of the hottest artists in the comics world -- Dave Stevens. He is well-known for his period adventure, "The Rocketeer", which has recently resumed publication by Eclipse Comics, and for his covers to such comic titles as "Alien Worlds" and "Vanguard Illustrated". 1/11/85 Randy. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 85 10:38:59 PST (Friday) Subject: Worst SF Movie of All Time From: Couse.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA My nomination for one of the worst "SF" movies would have to be "Robot Monster", circa 1951. The alien was a guy dressed in a gorilla suit with a sort of diving helmet type thing on his head. When he would contact his home planet it was via a standard '50s style TV set showing someone in a similar costume standing in front of a curtain with soap bubbles being blown around behind him. At the end of the movie, the little boy (think his name was Bobby) wakes up to find it was all a dream, then he looks out his window and sees the flying saucer that started his dream coming in. Best line: "I am not hu-man, I am ro-man." /Mary (Great! What's a truck?) ------------------------------ From: utcs!jjchew@topaz (John Chew) Subject: Another bad SF movie Date: 23 Jan 85 17:50:19 GMT What? A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John Carpenter's "Dark Star"? An alien mascot made out of a spray-painted beach-ball? Space effects where they don't bother trying to hide the wires? And Alan Dean Foster's ... er, marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the movie exactly! university of toronto computing services: john j. chew, iii {decvax,ihnp4,utcsrgv,allegra!utzoo,linus!utzoo}!utcs!jjchew ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 1985 01:30 EST From: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: the truly worst sf movie of all time after following all the messages as to the worst sf movie of all time i find myself mortally confused. i always thought that star wars 1, 2, & 3 were the worst sf movie of all time. shades@mit-oz ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui) Subject: Re: Bad sf films Date: 26 Jan 85 18:01:36 GMT >2) JUST IMAGINE. Just imagine a science fiction musical. With >terrible music. Atrocious acting. A ridiculous romance. Hmm... sounds vaguely like Rocky Horror Picture Show (Hey, Rocky! Watch my pull an alien out of my hat!) chuq From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach {allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs National Semiconductor does not require useless disclaimers on posted material that is obviously not posted by company spokesmen... ------------------------------ From: rsk@stat-l (Rich Kulawiec) Subject: Re: Request for theme from COSMOS... Date: 23 Jan 85 16:44:59 GMT The composer is "Vangelis", of synthesizer soundtrack fame. He also did "Chariots of Fire", some solo albums ("Albedo 0.39", "China", "Earth", Heaven and Hell", "Spiral") and so on. The music from Cosmos *IS* available on an LP, the cover of which matches the book. Curiously enough, parts of the Cosmos theme resemble parts of Albedo 0.39... Rich Kulawiec @ Purdue Unix Wombat Group rsk@purdue-asc.arpa (decvax,ihnp4,uiucdcs)!pur-ee!rsk.uucp (decwrl,hplabs,ucbvax)!purdue!rsk.uucp "First I'm going to bother everybody I meet, And then I'll probably go home and get drunk." ------------------------------ Subject: The theme music from COSMOS From: CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (S. C. Colbath) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 1985 12:49 EST As far as I know, it is available from 2 sources: There is a record of the original music, plus selections from all over that were included in the series. This record is: The Music of COSMOS RCA Records, 1981 If you simply want the theme music, you can get the record that it came from - the title is: Heaven and Hell Vangelis RCA Records, 1975 When I first tried to get the above record, I had to order it from RCA in England, but since then I have seen it on tapes here in the U.S. Sean C. Colbath CPE07401%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sun Jan 27 20:13:09 1985 From: mcb%lll-tis.ARPA@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Cosmos theme Cc: WBD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA The theme for the series COSMOS is from the album "Heaven and Hell" by Vangelis. According to the jacket, it was recorded in London in 1975 and released as RCA AFL1-5110 later that year. Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-tis.ARPA {akgua,ihnp4,sun}!idi!lll-tis!mcb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jan 85 13:49:33 est From: fischer@ru-opal (Ron Fischer) Subject: Anderson and Burr's "Terrahawks" At long last! The return of Gerry Anderson to children's future oriented puppet shows. Can another Captain Scarlet be far behind? Does anyone on this digest know who Christopher Burr is, and what he has done previously? Does anyone know what Gerry Anderson has been up to lately? Pardon me if I got ahead of myself. One of the New York local TV stations (WPIX channel 11) has picked up "Terrahawks" for the 3pm afternoon slot. Its a bad one, I drive the 2 miles it takes to get home to see the 30 minute show. From a very few episodes I've picked up that Earth is under attack by aliens who are using Mars as a base of operations. The Terrahawk organization is protecting us. This sounds like standard fare for Anderson! Captain Scarlet had the organization "Spectrum" guarding us from takeover by the somewhat more ethereal "Mysterons" (who were native martians). The effects work in the show is absolutely top notch. Better resolution in explosions and model work than Bonanzastar Gahacktica. The usual Andersonian flying craft, launch from underwater, at the edge of the atmosphere the ship separates into a (high speed?) craft and the slower carrier flies back to base. Much fun. The puppet technology, I suspect, is derived from something Burr was doing. They appear to be operated from underneath (no strings) and are not the "perfect proportion" puppets used in Captain Scarlet. Eyes and mouths move nicely though, reminded me of Dark Crystal. The only drawback is that the show is only 30 minutes long, introducing severe limitations into their storytelling, and that it is aimed at a very young audience (the bad guys have interesting characters, but are more at "fantasy" than "sf"). (ron) ------------------------------ From: hcrvax!jims@topaz (Jim Sullivan) Subject: Re: movie request Date: 21 Jan 85 22:26:21 GMT Yes, the adolescence of P1 was/is a T.V. short (1 hour) shown recently on PBS' Wonderworks (Monday @ 8:00pm) (i think) It's about a hack (called Hacker) who writes a Life program, and then modifies the program to create new programs....actually an interesting idea. I enjoyed it, although my girlfriend thought it was silly. By the way, it was filmed in Toronto. Jim Sullivan ..!hcrvax!jims ------------------------------ From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian) Subject: Re: movie request (The Adolecence of P1) Date: 25 Jan 85 04:10:07 GMT I caught this by accident the other night on PBS. I can safely say that it was no more accurate than War Games, was indeed a limp ripoff of War Games, and was only mildly interesting. The ending to me seemed especially lame. Unless there was something subtle there I missed. Anyone else see it? The master take-over-the-world program was created by the hero translating the patterns made by a 'game of life' program into op-codes. Gimmeabreak! Do you really think a computer can cause RS-232 signals to make a conference phone amplifier product human speach? Do we really need a computer hero with a name like 'Hacker'? If you must see this, make sure there is something good on another channel so you can multiplex during the boring parts. Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz (Herb Chong [DCS]) Subject: Re: Query about The Adolescence of P1 Date: 23 Jan 85 19:19:06 GMT the person who stated that this show was a takeoff on Wargames is mistaken. the show was filmed and edited before Wargames came out. it's release was delayed for reasons i do not know. Herb Chong... I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... UUCP:{decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jan 85 1342-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #31 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 31 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Eddings (2 msgs) & Vance & Vinge (2 msgs) & Zelazny, Films - Worst SF Movie (2 msgs) & Conquest of Mars, Television - Space:1999 (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pyuxhh!kurt@topaz (K A Gluck) Subject: Does anyone have a copy of Myth Directions Date: 27 Jan 85 18:32:46 GMT When I posted my original article (after having finished Another Fine Myth, and Myth Conceptions [ by robert asprin] ) - I was under the impression that the ACE printing was the only printing. I know I should have read the printing history. The responses to my article showed me that there was an earlier printing of all of the books in the series, and that I need not wait until June for the next book. The problem is that I have found and purchased the STARBLAZE-DONNING copies of; Hit or Myth and Mything Persons, BUT I CANNOT FIND Myth Directions,anywhere. Yesterday I called about 14 book stores (some even in N.Y.C.), and I cant find it. I really don't want to read Hit or Myth or Mything Persons without first reading Myth Directions, but my strength is going fast. I find myself picking them up, looking at the pictures, it is only a matter of time .... Please does anyone out there have a copy of Myth directions ? If you do, could you lend it to me ? I will read it quickly (no more than 2 days). I will then return it. Also I Promise to buy a copy of it when it comes out by ACE or if I can find one by donning. I mean I wouldn't want my set to be incomplete, I have a cousin whom I would like to get to read the series. Send me a message by EMAIL first, (just in case there are 1 million of you out there) and we will discuss addresses, and return addresses. I will pay all postage, but again, write me on unix FIRST. - thanks, (in advance) - and , please hurry, I don't think I can last much longer. Kurt Gluck SPL 1c273a Bell Communications Research Inc 6 Corporate Place Piscataway NJ, 08854 ihnp4!pyuxhh!kurt (201)-561-7100 x2023 ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 85 12:25:19 PST (Friday) From: Hallgren.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #25 Like Frederick Avolio & Adam Buchsbaums I am fascinated by Donaldsons' writing. I heard he planned 12 Covenent books, but this was just hearsay. Let him rest a couple more years. The next series might be in a different LAND, among the "dead", or by Linden Avery or another character. Not all the "Barsoom" books featured John Carter as the main character. In addition to the six Thomas Covenant books he has done "Daughter of Regals", a collection of short stories. It includes "Gilden Fire" which is set in THE LAND and available in a illustrated, hardcopy addition. Donaldson has also written two detective novels, "The Man Who Killed His Brother", and "The Man Who Risked His Partner". The books are written under a pen name, Donald Stephenson. The style still comes through, and carries you through the books, even if the stories themselves aren't all that great. I find myself sympathizing for his characters more than I usually do with fictional people. The first is available in paperback, the second in a larger size type of paperback. The protagonists are the same, but aren't perfect heroes in these two books, any more than in the Covenent series. Clark H. ------------------------------ From: bgsuvax!schultz@topaz (Steven Schultz) Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever Date: 24 Jan 85 21:35:54 GMT I had not heard of Stephen Donaldson stretching the series out over 15 books. But, if this is true, I would appreciate any information on the subject, because my friend and I are Donaldson fans. Thanks, Steven Schultz bgsuvax!schultz "It boots nothing to avoid the Despiser's snares" -Lord Mhoram ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 1985 13:07 EST (Sun) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight) Subject: Castle of Wizardry A castle is also a move to protect the King: in this case, taking Belgarion to the Vale of Aldur where he will be safe while he learns something of his new powers. ------------------------------ Subject: Eddings Belgariad From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (M.A. Murphy) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 1985 20:55 EST Let me start by saying that I loved the Belgariad! I eagerly awaited the publishing of each book in the series since I started reading the series when there were only two books out. This is by no means a comprehensive analysis of the series, but I do think it may shed some light on the correlation between Chess and the Belgariad. The titles and the story do bear a resemblance to a chess game. The 'Pawn of Prophecy' is the first book in the series. Most opening moves in chess are made with a pawn. All the pieces (characters) on a chessboard (in the books) are manipulated without their control, be they pawn or otherwise. The three middle books correspond somewhat to the middle game of chess. The Queen is a piece that is used primarily in the middle and end games of a game of chess (although often by the end game queens have been traded or lost). A gambit can occur anywhere in a game of chess, but they are most common in the middle game where the battles for position are fought. Gambits are a ploy to misdirect the opponent/enemy and are an attempt to make him think he has the upper hand. The war which C'Nedra was gathering troops to wage was not supposed to be an actual war, but just something to keep the Murgos and Malloreans occupied while Belgarath, Belagarion, et al journeyed in secrecy to meet Torak. Castling is another chess term which also is a form of misdirection. One castles in chess to make one's opponent direct his attack elsewhere on the board. Castling is rarely done in the opening game or end game. The end game in chess occurs when most of the pieces have been cleared from the board and only a few key pieces remain. In cases where the pieces are rather even, the more the cunning and strategy of the players is seen. The player with the greater cunning or strategy will generally come out on top. One might say that the major pieces (kings) of the end game were the two prophecies about to run into each other head on. The other key pieces involved were Torak and Belgarion, Belgarion having Polgara, Belgarath, Errand, Durnik, C'Nedra, Silk and of course the Orb as his supporting pieces. The prophecies met, embodied in Belgarion and Torak. And when they met, they decided there was no need to involve others. Thus, the final end game was just between the two of them, Belgarion and Torak, and each prophecy they carried. And what an end game it was... ------------------------------ Date: Sun 27 Jan 85 19:48:54-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Magnus Ridolph The recent Underwood/Miller hardcover, The Complete Magnus Ridolph, contains two additional stories. Hard-Luck Diggings Sanatoris Short-Cut In their introduction, Vance says that he was trying an experiment with fast writing. He has successfully kept them both out of print for thirty-five years. I think that the five Demon Prince novels has a lot of the same flavor as the Magnus Ridolph stories. I especially like the counterfeiting and the end of The Face. Randy. ------------------------------ From: wlcrjs!rhesmith@topaz (Richard H. E. Smith II) Subject: Re: True Names Re-release Date: 24 Jan 85 10:38:14 GMT AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes: > Like many readers of sf-lovers, I've been awaiting the >re-release of Vernor Vinge's "True Names", one of the best novels >about computers, hackers, and artificial intelligence. Last night, >I spoke with Bob Walters, who did the cover and interior art for >the new edition, and he provided me with the following news: > The book, complete with an afterword by Marvin Minsky, was >scheduled for an October release, and was so announced in >Publisher's Weekly and other trade magazines. However, due to >various foulups at BlueJay Books and/or St. Martin's Press >(BlueJay's distributor), it was not actually released until late >December or early January. Despite this, Jim Frenkel, BlueJay's >editor- in-chief, did not revise the book's copyright date to read >1985. > Many bookstores, including the major chains such as >WaldenBooks, Crown, and Dalton's, have a buying policy which >prohibits the purchasing of "old" releases unless they are either >proven sellers or specially-ordered by the customers. "True >Names", because of its '84 copyright, is considered as "old" even >though it never reached the shelves... I remember this as excellent stuff, and I'm surprised that Walden/Dalton don't remember that it was a stong Hugo contender (nominated, did not win) in '82. Then again, what do they know. Unfortunately, these stories of "...foulups..." only confirm the rumours that BlueJay's financial backing may not be holding up. The word has always been that Frenkel started BlueJay with, shall we say, less than adequate capitalization. We'll see. Meanwhile, if you like their stuff, go buy it, so they can manage to do more. Dick Smith ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!rhesmith ------------------------------ From: rochester!stuart@topaz (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: Re: True Names Re-release Date: 27 Jan 85 04:58:20 GMT AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes: > Many bookstores, including the major chains such as >WaldenBooks, Crown, and Dalton's, have a buying policy which >prohibits the purchasing of "old" releases unless they are either >proven sellers or specially-ordered by the customers. "True >Names", because of its '84 copyright, is considered as "old" even >though it never reached the shelves... To reassure those who are not inclined to order by mail and concerned about obtaining a copy of True Names, I walked into a WaldenBooks this evening and bought one of their 5 or 6 copies of the book. I do not think the aforementioned buying policy is going to be a big problem. Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester ------------------------------ Date: Sat 26 Jan 85 10:04:11-PST From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #28 Regarding "And call me Conrad..." (the ellipsis was in the original title): I am ashamed to say that when writing about "Lord of Light" this gem slipped my mind. It was the very first Zelazny I ever read, in a two-part serialization in F&SF Magazine. It made me want to read more of his work; LoL made me an undying fan, one who would put up with the rapid deterioration in quality from one Amber novel to the next. I second the motion: Get this book (published in paper by Ace as "This Immortal"). Use any means to do so; the uplift will be worth any minor crises of conscience. Rich Alderson@Score, Alderson@Sierra ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie Date: 26 Jan 85 05:41:19 GMT jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) writes: >What? A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John >Carpenter's "Dark Star"? An alien mascot made out of a >spray-painted beach-ball? Space effects where they don't bother >trying to hide the wires? And Alan Dean Foster's ... er, >marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the >movie exactly! Not quite fair, _Dark Star_ was, I believe, a student production and quite good , that considered. My favorite moment was when the audience realized that the back packs on the space suits are muffin tins, but given the budget that implies they did very well. BTW, did anyone notice that part of the ending is stolen directly from a Ray Bradbury story? Ted Nolan 6536 Brookside Circle Columbia, SC 29206 ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) ...akgua!usceast!ted allegra!akgua!usceast!ted@UCB-VAX.ARPA (ARPA, maybe) ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination") ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui) Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie Date: 27 Jan 85 02:58:17 GMT jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) writes: >What? A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John >Carpenter's "Dark Star"? An alien mascot made out of a >spray-painted beach-ball? Space effects where they don't bother >trying to hide the wires? EEEKKKK! Scoundrel! Cad! Dark Star is a marvelous piece of fluff. It was really a senior (masters?) project that made it out into the 'real' world. No budget to worry about, so everything was done with ingenuity (I LOVED the spacesuits-- silver trashbags, duct tape (without hamsters), half the kitchen, a few pieces of styrofoam and a popcorn popper. It's funny. It's not bad, and it actually has a number of interesting social statements in it (one of my favorite 'beat society in the head films', along with Dr. Strangelove, Rollerball, and Boy and His Dog). What's even better is watching Dark Star a few times, and then going to a theater and watching the film they did WITH a budget-- I got more than a few funny looks for guffawing through a screening of Alien, but the in-jokes they tossed in pointing back at their 'cult' film to keep you going through most of the movie.... From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach {allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs National Semiconductor does not require useless disclaimers on posted material that is obviously not posted by company spokesmen... ------------------------------ Date: Sun 27 Jan 85 03:52:01-PST From: Andrew "Droid" Gideon Subject: Edison's Conquest of Mars "Edison's Conquest of Mars" was, as I recall, a sequel to War_of_the_Worlds. I recall enjoying it long ago, but I do not recall where to find it again. Does anyone out there know it, and/or where it can be found? -Andy Gideon ARPA: Gideon@SU-Score "My stars, it's full of God!" ------------------------------ Date: 24-Jan-85 22:51 PST From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD From: Subject: Maya (Catherine Schell) Anyone know whatever happened to Catherine Schell? --Bi\\ ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 25 Jan 1985 08:48:21-PST From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Thomas E. Janzen LMO4-0/B5 DTN From: 279-5421 ECL logic test) Subject: maia Space 1999 Maia changing shapes violating conservation of mass. Conservation of mass was discarded with modern relativity. Mass can become energy. In fact, I once knew someone like Maia, could do everything Maia could do, so there. Tom ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!moore@topaz Subject: Re: maia Date: 28 Jan 85 07:53:33 GMT > From: janzen%pipa.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Thomas E. Janzen LMO4-0/B5 DTN > 279-5421 ECL logic test) > > Conservation of mass was discarded with modern relativity. Mass > can become energy. In fact, I once knew someone like Maia, could > do everything Maia could do, so there. I sure wouldn't want to be around when he/she did it : % units 464 units; 3569 bytes you have: pound-c2 you want: megaton tnt * 9.769081e+00 / 1.023638e-01 % So Maia would emit the equivalent energy of a 10 megaton explosion for each pound of mass lost. Probably even as neutrinos the flux would lethal. The things you learn from the 'units' command .... Peter Moore (ucbvax!moore, moore@Berkeley) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jan 85 1302-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #32 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 32 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & May & Norton & Best SF & Intelligent Machines & Bluejay Books, Films - The Fox and the Hound & Perils of Gwendoline & Worst SF Movies (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CS-Mordred!Pucc-H.Pucc-I.agd@topaz Subject: Re: So Long, and here's my theories Date: 24 Jan 85 20:18:14 GMT >Bad news: I was at a lecture Adams gave in Berkeley and he said the >Hitchhiker's series was over. He was working on a movie (with the >people who did Ghostbusters). Anyone else have information on this? > >Cheryl Nemeth I recall that after each book of the series was released, D.A. said that there would definately not be a next book. For some reason, I don't think that I would trust his word on whether or not he puts out a book 5. I personally hope he does, but I would also be interested in seeing him do other writing, too. Unfortunately, I fear that only time will tell. Gerrit Huizenga | Wombat Group | Purdue University User Services {decvax|ucbvax|allegra|seismo|harpo|teklabs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-i!agd "Beam me up, Scotty, This planet *SUCKS*!" ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 26 Jan 1985 10:14:10-PST From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Rats live on no evil star) Subject: Julian May - review by Josh Susser at Xerox Well, in balance to Josh Susser's review of "Golden Torc", etc., I'd like to offer an alternate opinion: Yrrch. Clarke once wrote that in designing a good SF story, you make one assumption of something incredible, and then construct the rest of the story from believeable and real elements. In this way, the reader gets to try one new idea against a backdrop of sanity. In 2001/2010, for example, the "what if" is - what if there is a shepharding alien intellegence which watches over man? In Julian May's "Golden Torc" extraviganza, there are too many "what if's". What if there really are psychic powers? What if there is time travel? What if there was an alien invasion? What if there were a galactic coalition of extraterrestrials? What if pigs had wings? Any one of these assumptions would have made a credible SF story. Any two or more leaves us in an unsatisfying world of fantasy, where you can't quite swallow the whole pill. May is too interested in romantic sub-plots and her character's emotional responses to the rather ludicrous events of her plot. Like this: "John was heartbroken when the earth split apart and swallowed Sally all of a sudden. How would he live without her? Would he ever see her again?" I reiterate: Yrrch. Mark Maxson VAXworks MAXSON%VAXWRK.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA 129 Parker St PKO2-1/M21 Maynard, MA 01754 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jan 85 00:33:29 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Andre Norton's Witch World Hi there. I have been going over my collection of Norton, and have decided to do it up right. I hereby make two requests: Is there anyone out there who can give me a Compleat Bibliography of Andre Norton's Witch World Series? Is there anyone out there who can give me a Compleat *INTERNAL* Chronology of the stories? By internal, I mean which story follows which from the point of view of History of the Witch World. I expect that there will actually be Three Chronologies, one for each major land: Estcarp, High Hallack/ the Dales, and Arvon. I have already found three different stories written at three different times which are intertwined, and with mild chronological conflicts. I have _The Book of Andre Norton_, but it is now rather out of date. Also: any comments on how her stories of various milieux intertwine? I believe I have found a S&S series connecting to a SF, but I am not sure. I have also heard that there are actually TWO Patrol sets, in different timelines/universes. Any comments?? Send to me, and I will post to net if desired. have fun After the Nuclear War: /amqueue "No matter where you glow, there you are." ARPA: quint@ru-blue.arpa UUCP: ....{allegra,topaz}!ru-blue!quint USnail: garf! why bother? 116 Livingston Ave. Apt 1-K New Brunswick, NJ 08901 ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (e.leeper) Subject: Re: Best SF ever Date: 24 Jan 85 13:23:48 GMT "Best" is highly subjective. Just because some group votes something the best doesn't mean it is. Look at the people we elect to public office. When did "members of the World SF Convention" vote these awards? The membership is different each year, so this claim is not very meaningful to begin with. THE FOUNDATION TRILOGY was voted best multi-series (trilogy?) one year, beating out LORD OF THE RINGS! And I think the "Nightfall" vote you're talking about *was* by SFWA for the SF HALL OF FAME series of anthologies. To dispute DUNE's claim on the basis that it was only one year's vote is to ignore that these other votes were one year only also. Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 85 16:50:44 -0200 From: eyal%wisdom.BITNET@Berkeley (Eyal mozes) Subject: Stories about intelligent machines > I heard from a friend about a movie or TV version of "The > Adolescence of P1". Does anyone know anything about it? The book > was about a system cracking program which gets loose in the net > and eventually attains consciousness. It was unusually accurate > for this kind of thing, unlike, say, "Wargames". "The Adolescence of P-1" is certainly NOT "unusually realistic". It is devoid of any understanding of Artificial Intelligence, and presents a wildly impossible story. Thomas Ryan obviously takes the "brute force" approach to AI - the view that very large amounts of memory and computational power are a sufficient condition for the creation of intelligence. This view became obsolete long before the story was written. Of course, it is better than "Wargames"; that's not saying much. If you want a story about a machine which gets out of the control of its creator and eventually attains consciousness, and if you want that story to be realistic, even didactic, and at the same time an interesting, suspenseful story, then obviously the book for you is James P. Hogan's "The Two Faces of Tomorrow" (Byte's special issue on Artificial Intelligence, vol. 6 no. 9 september 1981, contained an article called "Science Fiction's Intelligent Computers", which was devoted mainly to a review of "The Adolescence of P-1" and "The Two Faces of Tommorow"). Another, more recent novel about machines attaining consciousness, which is more speculative but still very realistic, is Hogan's most recent novel (as far as I know; for someone who wants to keep up with what's going on in SF, living in Israel can be VERY frustrating) and, to date, his best: "Code of the Life Maker". Minor Spoiler Follows (only spoils first 15 pages) In "Code of the Life Maker", Hogan takes the "evolutionary" approach to AI. The story starts with an automated robot-factory spaceship with bugs in its software (the bugs were caused by radiation from a nearby supernova) landing on Titan about a million years ago. The defects in the robots it makes set in motion a Darwinian evolutionary process (there is a very convincing, detailed explanation of how this happens) which finally results in the emergence of intelligence. Several contributors to SF-Lovers Digest gave very high (and justified) praise to Forward's "Dragon's Egg" for its hard-core science. "Code of the Life Maker" also deals with the subject of humanity's encounter with a different form of life, and is just as scientifically interesting; unlike Forward's book, however, it has a plot - a very ingenious and suspenseful one - and deals with important philosophic issues. (It also has some very childish political views, but these play such a minor part that they don't detract from the book at all). The one trouble with "Code of the Life Maker" is that, like all other books by Hogan (or Forward), it doesn't have a real protagonist. However, in the character which comes closest to being one, Karl Zambendorf, we can find, for the first time in Hogan's novels, a good, convincing, interesting character. Let us all hope that it's not the last time. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ Date: Sun 27 Jan 85 20:04:00-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Bluejay Books Bluejay Books just appears to be very unprofessional. First they advertise books for a specific month, but the book actually appears months later. For example, the Man WHo Melted, by Jack Dann is advertised as 'coming in October', but the book actually showed up December 21 (in California). This is typical. Second, they are reprinting Ellison and Sturgeon in expensive large format trade paperbacks, ie $7.95 and $8.95 for a reprint. Third, the books are sometimes deceptive, like the new Phoenix in the Ashes by Joan Vinge is a collection, but there is no table of contents or full copyright page. The expensive reprint of True Names does not have the original copyright of 1981. Fourth, they started a program of limited editions, signed and numbered. Such books are still listed in the catalog. But all have been canceled. Randy. ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui) Subject: Re: chug's comment Date: 26 Jan 85 18:31:09 GMT larryg@teklds.UUCP (Larry Gardner) writes: >Please tell me why you thought Fox and the Hound was a flop? Hmm... where to start??? I won't talk about banal plots-- it was probably no worse than 'The Rescuers' or 'The Secret of NIHM', two pieces of animation I really DID enjoy. All three, deep down inside, are the kind of films that Walt used to make-- good, healthy, family films. I sincerely doubt that any of them would be films Walt would make today, because he was never afraid to innovate, but that is a personal opinion. The big problem with Fox and the Hound os the quality of the animation. When it was about half done, Don Bluth had a falling out with Disney Studios over future directions and company support (he felt that the Studios were milking Walt's reputation instead of carrying on his work) and left to form Bluth studios. So did most of the animation staff. Their result, a few years later, was 'Secret of NIHM', which was animated the way the classic Disney films were, and the detail shows. Those that were left, and other animators that Disney could latch onto tried to pick up the pieces. Most of them were relative novices or trained as background artists, not character artists, and would have trouble staying in the lines if you had them paint a wall. They did what they could to use the existing cells to up the overall quality, but if you look at the film, (even more noticable on a frame by frame basis) the quality is very variable and it really shows. I wasn't terribly entertained by the thing, or I might not be nit-picking the technical details to death (I'm not calling 'NIHM' the best, but I did enjoy it and I did notice their attention to detail-- it wasn't a product, it was a work of love). Having worked in the disney corporation and being very close to the magic of disney for years (as a fan of the films, the works, and the life of Walt) I may also be over-critical because I see what they've done to the potentials of the Disney companies since he died. It shows in the animation (always the flagship of the company). It shows in the films (Black Hole, for example? -- note that the only two decent 'Disney' films of recent time were Splash and 'Never Cry Wolf' were not done BY Disney, simply funded by them with no artistic control). It also, as I found out on a recent visit, is really starting to show in Disneyland, the place where Walt's magic was really most noticable-- its gone, an replaced by an aging and second rate amusement park. Chuq From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach {allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs National Semiconductor does not require useless disclaimers on posted material that is obviously not posted by company spokesmen... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jan 85 14:22 EST From: William M. York Subject: Re: Perils of Gwendolline movie To: Purtill@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Cc: shepard@SCRC-QUABBIN.ARPA >From: Mark Purtill > >According to the Feb '85 /Comics Journal/, the "Perils of >Gwendolline" movie /is/ based on the comic, but the bondage has been >removed. Last August, in Austin Texas, while waiting for the electrician (or someone like him) during the setup for AAAI, we found ourselves with a couple of hours to kill. Scanning the local paper for a matinee movie, "The Perils of Gwendoline" looked like the perfect way to kill them. Micro-review: Sort of a cross between "Barbarella" and "Raiders of the Lost Ark". It's basically a knock-off adventure film, with an attempt to substitute mild nudity for plot. The bondage is not completely removed. We didn't quite regret spending the $2.00. ------------------------------ From: ccice2!bwm@topaz (Brad Miller) Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie Date: 28 Jan 85 18:06:44 GMT jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) writes: >What? A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John >Carpenter's "Dark Star"? An alien mascot made out of a >spray-painted beach-ball? Space effects where they don't bother >trying to hide the wires? And Alan Dean Foster's ... er, >marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the >movie exactly! In case you didn't notice, "Dark Star" was a HACK. And a brilliant one at that. I particularly liked the scene where the ship the 'dark star' hurtles away from a planet they were bombing (basically because they had nothing better to do) and stop instantaneously, ignoring inertia ("I never studied law - B. Bunny). This hilarious movie should not be missed if you've never seen it. Brad Miller ...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax, ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm ------------------------------ Date: Mon 28 Jan 85 20:43:42-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Worst SF Film Ever It seems agreed that "Attack of the Killer Tomatos" is a GOOD SF film, because it lives up to its pretentions. In that case, my candidate for the WORST SF film, being the one that falls furthest short of its pretentions, is Alphaville : Jean-Luc Godard, 1965 Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 08:28:03-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: Re: truly worst sf movie of all time You forget, Star Wars is not in actuality an original sf story. In reality, the story has been used over and over and over and over and over and over and over... Sorry, got carried away. Take an old western "boy-meets-girl-loses-girl-battles-BAD-guy- saves-town- wins-girl" and put it in a sf setting and you have a public best seller. Of course it loses a little on the "hardcore" sf market, but, it makes money, so who cares anyway!!! Gaylene ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Jan 85 1327-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #33 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 33 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & Nourse & Schmitz & Sucharitkul (2 msgs) & Vance & Willis & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Female Protagonists & The Adolescence of P1, Television - The Prisoner (3 msgs) & Otherworld (2 msgs) & Catherine Schell ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gitpyr!dts@topaz Subject: the Thomas Covenant books Date: 24 Jan 85 22:32:30 GMT alb@alice.UUCP (Adam L. Buchsbaum) writes: >He [Donaldson] said he hadn't even planned to do the second >trilogy, but that the first sold so well and he got so much mail in >support of them that Del Rey pursuaded him. I figured as much. I liked the first three very, very much. But I feel there wasn't three books worth of material in the second trilogy. It would have been better as a single book. Much better. Most of the events in _The_Wounded_Land_ and _The_One_Tree_ had absolutely no bearing on the plot. And most of the words were just filler, there to take up space. I estimate that, if you leave out the unnecessary words, he had a book and a half, maybe two, of actual events. And that could easily have been cut down to a single book because not that many events actually had a bearing on events further on. All the traveling around and visiting the ancient peoples mentioned in the first trilogy could have been left out and the story wouldn't have suffered. What few dependencies there were could have been resolved differently. I won't go into my criticisms of the first Chronicles. They weren't exactly perfect, but they were good enough in some people's eyes that Donaldson could take a good idea for a fourth book, blow it up into a whole trilogy, and sell it. I hope he doesn't write a third trilogy. If he does I probably won't read it. Or put it this way: if _The_Lord_of_the_Rings_ is a fine silk necktie then the first _Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covenant_the_ Unbeliever_ is a cotton handkerchief and the second Chronicles is a bird cage liner. -- Either Argle-Bargle IV or someone else. -- Danny Sharpe School of ICS Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts ------------------------------ From: ukma!red@topaz Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever Date: 25 Jan 85 17:39:31 GMT Yikes! Not fifteen! I couldn't make it through any more than the first three. As to what I think of the books: GARBAGE! GARBAGE! GARBAGE! Covenant doesn't seem real to me. His actions don't make sense. The reason I read as much of it as I did was to pick out more of the background (which makes a good setup for a DND campaign). Gah! Red ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 85 13:36:27-EST (Fri) From: Susan Tabron Subject: Nourse Also, I was very interested in the information that Alan Nourse is Dr. X. I own & have read _Intern_ more than once, and have read (years ago) some of the SF books mentioned here. I agree that Intern isn't so shocking these days, especially since so many graphic medical books have appeared. Sue Tabron ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 04:58:02-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: James Schmitz > From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) > For people wanting more Schmitz, I can suggest a few things I > haven't seen mentioned on the net yet : _A_Tale_of_Two_Clocks (a > novel of the Old Galactics and Trigger Argee Unfortunately, there > is an alternate title for this one which I can't remember ), ... The alternate title, for a recent (last couple of years) Ace paperback edition, is LEGACY. For the record, here is a Schmitz bibliography: AGENT OF VEGA 1960 [collection] A TALE OF TWO CLOCKS 1962 reprinted as LEGACY THE UNIVERSE AGAINST HER 1964 A NICE DAY FOR SCREAMING AND OTHER TALES OF THE HUB 1965 [collection] THE WITCHES OF KARRES 1966 THE DEMON BREED 1968 A PRIDE OF MONSTERS 1970 [collection] THE LION GAME 1973 THE TELZEY TOY 1973 [collection] THE ETERNAL FRONTIERS 1973 A NICE DAY FOR SCREAMING is the only one that hasn't yet appeared in paperback. Hardcover copies are rare, and go for ridiculously high prices (generally around $200-250). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jan 1985 10:41:27 EST From: Subject: Sp ea ki n Gi nT ou nge s In response to a recent request, here's how to pronounce Thai author Somtow Sucharitkul's name: I. First name: A. First syllable: Sahm B. Second syllable: As if you were saying "towel," but dropping the last half. C. Accenting: Slightly stronger on the first syllable. II. Last name: A. First Syllable: Like the name 'Sue'. B. Second Syllable: Like the first half of "char-broiled" C. Third Syllable: Same as the third person impersonal pronoun D. Final Syllable: Should rhyme with the word 'seagull' E. Accenting: Heavy stresses are on the first and final syllables. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 03:48:38-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Somtow Sucharitkul Others have already replied, though there is a slight correction necessary: It's not su-cha-RIT-kul It's su-ka-RIT-kul --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: dec-miles!chabot@topaz Subject: Jack Vance's Magnus Ridolph stories Date: 24 Jan 85 14:05:56 GMT In 1980, DAW produced a reprint of _The_Many_Worlds_of_Magnus_ Ridolph_. It contains the stories "The Kokod Warriors", "The Unspeakable McInch", "The Howling Bounders", "The King of Thieves", "The Spa of the Stars", "Coup de Grace", "The Sub-standard Sardines", and "To B or not to C or to D". This book claims to be the complete collection of all recorded Magnus Ridolph's cases. Most of the stories appeared in magazines in the late '40s and early 50's, and were collected into this volume in '66 (according to the copyrights in my DAW book). Pardon for not replying sooner, but I no longer find it essential or viable to maintain a second Vance assortment at work. This book is likely out of print, I don't know if there's been a reprint since 1980, so I suggest hunting in your favorite second-hand store. "I am convinced that virtue is but a reflection of good intent." L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-miles!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%miles.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, MR03-1/K20, 2 Iron Way, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: FIRE WATCH by Connie Willis Date: 28 Jan 85 15:11:44 GMT FIRE WATCH by Connie Willis Bluejay Books, 1985, $14.95. A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper The collection contains twelve stories--eleven reprints and one "never-before-published" story. The Hugo- and Nebula-award-winning "Fire Watch" is the story of one history student's time travel project--to the London Blitz. Well-deserving of its awards, it is doubtless the best story in the book. But others are worthy of note also. "Lost and Found" and "Daisy, in the Sun" are both strange apocalyptic tales, though in very different ways. "All My Darling Daughters" (the one new story) is a bizarre little piece--it's easy to see why this may have had difficulty finding a market. "The Sidon in the Mirror" was nominated for a Hugo last year and its alien feel is an interesting juxtaposition to the "just plain folks" feel of most of Willis's other works. There is some fluff: "The Father of the Bride," "And Come from Miles Around," "Mail-Order Clone," and "Blued Moon." The last, though fluff, is highly recommended; it has some of the funniest scenes I've seen in print. "Samaritan" covers some fairly old ground, though the characters do hold the reader's interest through it. "Service for the Burial of the Dead" and "A Letter from the Clearys" are just average. The cover art is striking, and the book is well put together. Still, the price would indicate that unless you're a real Willis fan, you might want to wait for a paperback edition. Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 07:46:30-MST From: Richard Kuehn Subject: RE: Zelazny and Amber Zelazny gave a talk in Albuquerque (he lives in Santa Fe) last winter. He stated that he was currently writing "some more AMBER novels". This statement elicited resounding cheers from the audience. I don't know if he has since published the short story he read to us; it concerned a home computer that began consciously controlling its external environment, anticipating the plot to the film "Electric Dreams" in a pretty charming fashion. The narrator's oft-repeated refrain was: "No one will notice!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 85 9:42:01 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From To continue the listing of Zelazny's earlier gems, let's also not forget ISLE OF THE DEAD Of his novels, I like this and "And Call Me Conrad..." best. The writing is exquisite; the ideas good; the plot sound. Much of Zelazny's earlier short fiction are also real humdingers; e.g. "The Doors of his Face, The Lamps of His Mouth" (or something like that...) "A Rose For Ecclesiastes" (still gives me goosebumps to read it) Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 85 9:42:01 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From On the "female protogonist" survey, what about Patricia McKillip's "RIDDLE OF STARS" trilogy ("The Riddle Master Of Hed", "Heir of Sea and Fire", "Harpist In The Wind"), particularly the middle volume. We have many very strong women leads here. This trilogy also happens to be one of what I consider THE best efforts of the past decade, up there with ENGINE SUMMER and others I can't think of at the moment. RITE OF PASSAGE, by Alexei Panshin. Joanna Russ' Alyx novels (AND CHAOS DIED, PICNIC ON PARADISE) and stories (in a collection or two, and scattered) Leigh Brackett's Jirel of Jhoiry stories (maybe) Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jan 85 13:36:27-EST (Fri) From: Susan Tabron Subject: P1 I can't stand it!!! All this talk about P1, and I'm pretty sure I read it, but has anyone mentioned the author? publishing info? I haven't got it now & would love to have it again. Sue Tabron ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuqui) Subject: the prisoner returns Date: 27 Jan 85 07:49:20 GMT The local PBS station, KTEH (54 in San Jose) just announced that they will be starting a run of the series 'The Prisoner' starting in March. For all of you in the KTEH viewing area, rejoice and get your VCR's tuned up. For the rest of you, start yelling at your PBS stations. The shows ARE available, all they need is some persuasion... Another reason to support PBS stations.... (*yipee!*) chuq From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach {allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA God is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs National Semiconductor does not require useless disclaimers on posted material that is obviously not posted by company spokesmen... ------------------------------ From: cord!ggr@topaz (Guy Riddle) Subject: Re: the prisoner returns Date: 28 Jan 85 17:23:16 GMT Of course, for all you law abiding Citizens out there who wouldn't dare Steal a copyrighted program (or don't live within the range of a friendly PBS station [WHYY Philadelphia was up to "The General" before Usenix]), you can Buy the episodes at your local Video Emporium. Be seeing you. === Guy Riddle == AT&T Bell Laboratories, New Jersey === ------------------------------ From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian) Subject: Re: the prisoner returns Date: 28 Jan 85 17:56:00 GMT Funny, just the other day my date confessed that she thinks she remembers a tv show from her childhood, something about a giant beach ball that devours people. Everyone she's asked about it, (family, friends) thought she was crazy. Now, once and for all, she can see that she wasn't. Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jan 85 10:36:14 PST (Sun) Subject: Otherworld From: Dan Hirschberg For those of you who missed the premiere of this TV series on CBS, don't lose any sleep over it. This amalgam of Lost In Space and The Fugitive is aimed at the proverbial 11 year-old. It relies heavily on the use of deus ex machina. A 20th century American family is touring the pyramids with a guide who leaves them in a tomb-like chamber when they are mysteriously transported (because of the coincidental alignment of 6 heavenly bodies) to an "other world" (which may turn out to be the Earth of the far future, or else how does everyone speak English and use the English alphabet). They conveniently run into the one person who has THE "mastercard" that allows them unlimited access to all computer, travel, security etc. facilities, and they take it from him. He (the military commander) becomes the pursuer of our fugitives who are lost in time-space. Later on, our family conveniently obtains the entire history of the people of this world (in one largish volume). They will be going from city to city, following the eyed pillars that, they are informed, will lead them to eventually return whence they came. I viewed this episode without expecting very much. It was pretty much what I expected. ------------------------------ From: abnji!jca@topaz (james armstrong) Subject: Otherworld & Starcrossed Date: 28 Jan 85 18:26:37 GMT Anybody actually enjoy Otherworld Saturday night? I caught it before Dr. Who, and nearly fell asleep. Another "Lost in Space..." I have yet to see Starcrossed, but the adds certainly make it look like a "Starman" ripoff. Maybe good science fiction is just something American television can't do. JCA ------------------------------ Subject: Catherine Schell Date: 28 Jan 85 23:00:48 PST (Mon) From: Alastair Milne The last time I saw Catherine Schell was as a Parisian countess in the Dr. Who episode "City of Death" (*who* names these things? They really are a lot better than they sound). Funny, I don't seem to recall her as Maia, but then, it has been awhile. I do recall approximately what Maia looked like, though, and she looked much better in Dr. Who. What she's done since then, I know not. This was a Tom Baker episode, so it's not very recent. A. Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Jan 85 0946-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #34 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 34 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Asprin (2 msgs) & Donaldson (2 msgs) & May & Niven & Books to be Movies & Earthblood & The Cold Equations, Films - Worst SF Movie (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ihlpg!jcjeff@topaz (jeffreys) Subject: Re: BOOK 5 !! Date: 29 Jan 85 22:28:56 GMT > I recall that after each book of the series was released, D.A. > said that there would definitely not be a next book. For some > reason, I don't think that I would trust his word on whether or > not he puts out a book 5. I personally hope he does, but I would > also be interested in seeing him do other writing, too. > Unfortunately, I fear that only time will tell. > > Gerrit Huizeng Book 5 ?? I was not aware of a book 4. I thought that there were three: Hitchhickers Guide To The Galaxy The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe Life, The Universe And Everything If there is a book 4 PLEASE let me know what it is so I can rush out and pick up a copy. ps. The *computer graphic* bits were done as a cartoon. The Beeb could not afford to produce the proper article. The BBC (Beeb) is not a commercial enterprise and has to get its money by mandatory license fees! --rj-- Bell Labs, Naperville. My brains the size of a very very small planet. ------------------------------ From: ttds!euren@topaz (Leif Euren) Subject: Re: Books to read - a good new author Date: 28 Jan 85 14:46:04 GMT kurt@pyuxhh.UUCP (K A Gluck) writes: >I have just finished my second book by Robert Asprin and all I can >say is that it is very very funny. > >I have read: Another fine myth > : Myth conceptions And be sure to have look at the comic by the same name. Phil Foglio have made some truly hilarious panels. Published by WaRP Graphics (the ones with Elfquest, y'know). Leif Euren euren@ttds!enea!mcvax ------------------------------ From: unm-cvax!cs2532aa@topaz Subject: Myth-Adventures featuring a pervert Date: 29 Jan 85 10:02:46 GMT All five books in Bob Asprin's MYTH series (Another Fine Myth, Myth Conceptions, Myth Directions, Hit or Myth, and Mything Persons, respectively) are available in fantastically neat trade paper editions for $6.95 each from: Starblaze Editions The Donning Company/Publishers 5659 Virginia Beach Boulevard Norfolk, Virginia 23502 (804) 461-8090 There are also fancier editions available as well as discounts for those who are buying complete sets. I have dealt with Starblaze before and they were prompt and courteous in getting me the first two ELFQUEST color volumes. WaRP Graphics, the publishers of the aforementioned ELFQUEST, also have a quarterly b&w comic that is serializing the books, each issue of which is drawn in its entirety by Phil Foglio. Each book in the original book series is equal to twelve issues of the comic, and there is supposed to be original material by Asprin and Foglio produced for a few issues between each story. The comic is called MYTH ADVENTURES! and you should have no trouble getting the four issues currently out from your local comic shop. The usual disclaimer applies - as far as I know, I don't have any relatives or anything working for either of these organizations, in fact, the people at WaRP Graphics think I'm some sort of weirded-out freakozoid. .rne. USnail: Ernie Longmire 311 Don St. SE Los Lunas NM 87031 UUCP: {purdue,cmc12,ihnp4}!lanl!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa {csu-cs,pur-ee,gatech,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa ------------------------------ From: intelca!cem@topaz (Chuck McManis) Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever Date: 28 Jan 85 16:11:06 GMT I suppose we could always have "The Chronicles of Linden Avery, The Chosen." and then the "Second Chronicles ... " Given this technique, and a final "The Chronicles of every other wimp I could think up" we could come up with 15 books, I even heard rumors from the local SF "guru" that Donaldson had finished the first Linden Avery book. (Lord Foul is like dandruff, he just won't go away! :-)) My question, after reading the first book why did the publisher even look at a second? They certainly got better as the series progressed but I still recommend to friends who pick up the series to skip the first one and start with the second. --Chuck {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ {qantel,idi}->!intelca!cem {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ ------------------------------ From: iuvax!darrow@topaz Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever Date: 27 Jan 85 06:16:00 GMT Not Fifteen??? I made it through the first five, and had to quit. I've never hated hating a hero like that before. I will most likely keep reading the stories if only for the other characters, but TC...ughh! dave at IU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 85 8:40:07 EST From: Ronald L. Singleton Subject: Re: Julian May >Well, in balance to Josh Susser's review of "Golden Torc", etc., >I'd like to offer an alternate opinion: Yrrch. >Clarke once wrote that in designing a good SF story, you make one >assumption of something incredible, and then construct the rest of >the story from believeable and real elements. ... >In Julian May's "Golden Torc" extraviganza (sic), there are too >many "what if's". What if there really are psychic powers? What if >there is time travel? What if there was an alien invasion? What if >there were a galactic coalition of extraterrestrials? What if pigs >had wings? Any one of these assumptions would have made a credible >SF story. Any two or more leaves us in an unsatisfying world of >fantasy, where you can't quite swallow the whole pill. I'd like to insert my answer to Mark Maxson. You make a good point for some SF "purists" Mark, but for those of us who read for the entertainment value, any reasonable number of assumptions (as long as they are not added in later in the story, as if to explain a weird plot twist) can make a story more enjoyable. In addition, I consider the GT series more fantasy than SF anyway, and I will allow for more "what if" in the genre. The "Myth" stories are another group in this category. What if there were other dimensions? What if some had magic, some had technology and some had both in varying degrees? What if Demons and Devils were not really as bad as superstition says? On and on. I am currently enjoying these stories, as I enjoyed the Golden Torc stories a while back. There are many other examples, but I would rather keep this short enough to be left intact if published in the Digest. NEW SUBJECT: I thouroughly enjoy the SF-LOVERS Digest and have made a habit of saving many of the pearls printed here for future shopping lists of books and movies. Keep 'em coming!! You can flame me via emsg or the digest, I'm a regular reader. Ron (rsingle at bbncct) ------------------------------ From: cvl!hsu@topaz (Dave Hsu) Subject: How about some reviews of Integral Trees? Date: 28 Jan 85 19:35:23 GMT Okay guys, so another Niven book has arrived in paperback (along with some glorious quotes from reviews inside the covers.) Anyone for reviews? 'fraid I'm not versed in enough other books from his universe to offer my own comparisons, aside from it being pretty consistently good, but *gasp* if only it had been longer (not suggesting that it was particularly short, just that we want more...) Dave Hsu :: Maryversity of Uniland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: hsu@cvl CSNET: hsu@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!hsu Zere vere zwei peanuts valking down ze strasse... und vun vas assaulted...peanut... -early German joke warfare ------------------------------ Date: Mon 28 Jan 85 10:47:44-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #29 I want "The Armageddon Rag" by George R.R. Martin as a movie. NOW! [It combines rock, 60's faded liberalism, terror and great humor. Think of it as a cross between "Eddie and the Cruisers," "The Big Chill" and "Carrie."] wz ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: EARTHBLOOD by Keith Laumer Date: 28 Jan 85 15:11:13 GMT EARTHBLOOD by Keith Laumer and Rosel George Brown Bluejay, 1985, $8.95. A book review by Mark R. Leeper Bluejay Books is a relatively new publishing company run by Jim Frenkel. It publishes trade paperbacks and hardbacks. Most of their line seems to be reprints of older novels, but they also publish some new fiction. Frenkel's memory seems better than his eye for new talent. I have yet to hear of a good new piece of fiction that Bluejay has printed, nor a bad reprint. You may remember me ranting and raving about Bluejay Books in the past. In specific, I ranted against Elizabeth Lynn's THE SILVER STALLION, which even in my youth I would have hated. By the time I was old enough that I would have been able to read THE SILVER STALLION, I would have been too old to appreciate the sugary story of toys coming to life. And I raved about Jack Williamson's DARKER THAN YOU THINK. This is a fun fantasy-horror novel with a feel of the 40's horror films, but which is just as much fun today. Frenkel had David G. Klein illustrate it inside and out and at least inside the illustrations were superb. I just recently picked up another Bluejay reprint, EARTHBLOOD by Keith Laumer and Rosel George Brown. EARTHBLOOD is a wild space opera which was written in 1966. The book follows the adventures of Roan Cornay, a descendent of Earth stock in a universe in which Terrans are mistrusted and feared. Roan was hatched from a valuable terrestrial strain embryo and grows to youth among the bird-like gracyls. The first part of the book borrows a lot of its plotting from TARZAN OF THE APES, I think. From there he is kidnapped into a circus where he hones his skills until the circus is destroyed by pirates. Once again kidnapped, he joins the pirates. The plot never slows down as we follow Cornay's career. The plot is comic book level, but well-written. Alan Gutierrez illustrates and though the cover is attractive, the interior illustrations are a bit fast and sloppy. Gutierrez is no David Klein. Still, EARTHBLOOD is a nice-looking book and the story makes a good evening's read, if a bit pricey at $8.95. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 85 14:07:44+0200 From: Ronen Friedman Subject: Information inquiry - Urgent The story - "The Cold Equations", will be included in a new high-school textbook. Does anybody have some background information about the author? Please respond quickly, as my deadline is in about a week from now. Ronen Friedman ronen@taurus (BITNET) ronen@taurus.bitnet@berkely (ARPA) ronen%taurus.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA (CSNET) ...!decvax!humus!taurus!ronen (UUCP) ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: re: Another bad SF movie (** small Dark Star spoiler **) Date: 28 Jan 85 20:54:55 GMT >From: jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) >What? A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John >Carpenter's "Dark Star"? An alien mascot made out of a >spray-painted beach-ball? Space effects where they don't bother >trying to hide the wires? And Alan Dean Foster's ... er, >marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the >movie exactly! I must protest. This is one of my favorite films. The effects were obviously intentionally what they were and contributed greatly to the humor of the situation. Note that most of the effects they wanted to be good were ok (the laser looked real enough). The beach-ball alien and the styrofoam-and-muffin-tin space suits were obviously intended as gag items. Ever wonder how they got that enormous elevator shaft into that small ship? I didn't know the film had been novelized. Doesn't strike me as a good, or even feasible, idea, but I haven't read it yet so I can't comment with authority. The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI If thy CRT offend thee, pluck 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. it out and cast it from thee. Santa Monica, California 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz (Lewis Barnett) Subject: re: Another bad SF movie (** small Dark Star spoiler **) Date: 29 Jan 85 17:09:20 GMT > >From: jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) >>What? A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John >>Carpenter's "Dark Star"? An alien mascot made out of a >>spray-painted beach-ball? Space effects where they don't bother >>trying to hide the wires? And Alan Dean Foster's ... er, >>marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the >>movie exactly! > > I must protest. This is one of my favorite films. The effects > were obviously intentionally what they were and contributed > greatly to the humor of the situation. Note that most of the > effects they wanted to be good were ok (the laser looked real > enough). The beach-ball alien and the styrofoam-and-muffin-tin > space suits were obviously intended as gag items. Ever wonder how > they got that enormous elevator shaft into that small ship? > > I didn't know the film had been novelized. Doesn't strike me as a > good, or even feasible, idea, but I haven't read it yet so I can't > comment with authority. -- I second -- "Dark Star" was fabulous! I was under the impression that Alan Dean Foster's novel came first, but given his penchant for novelization, I could be wrong. If it is a novelization, it's possibly his best, though that is perhaps faint praise. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jan 1985 19:44 EST From: Jim Aspnes To: utcs!jjchew@TOPAZ.ARPA (John Chew) Subject: Another bad SF movie (Dark Star) Not to mention the spacesuit backpacks made out of white-painted TV dinner trays. Dark Star served its purpose well, though. What other movie has managed to trash so many SF conventions so well while maintaining a straight face? And I've never seen a talking dead character who was so realistically senile ... Jim "Seargent Pinback, you are null data." ------------------------------ From: snow!asz@topaz (Alex Zbyslaw) Subject: Re: Worst S-F Movie Ever Made Date: 28 Jan 85 14:13:15 GMT The worst s-f movie ever made has to be "Plan 9 from Outer Space". The acting is so appalling its almost as bad as the script. One of the stars, Bela Lugosi, died during the filming (and I don't blame him) to be replaced by an actor six inches taller who had to cover his face with a cloak. Mind you, this film is just so bad, its funny. "Attack of the fifty foot woman", isn't quite bad enough to be funny so is in many ways worse. "Night of the Lepus" (giant bunnies) is quite funny and appalling too. --Alex "Brain the size of a planet and all I end up doing is sending news to the net." ... mcvax!ukc!qtlon!flame!ubu!snow!asz ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Jan 85 1015-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #35 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 35 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Forward & Kuttner & Niven, Films - Perils of Gwendoline & Edison's Conquest & Worst SF Movies (2 msgs), Television - Quark (3 msgs) & Space: 1999 & Otherworld & The Prisoner & Whovites vs Trekkies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Jan 85 14:00:22 PST (Mon) From: Sonia Schwartzberg Subject: micro-review of ENDER'S GAME, Orson Scott Card For those who read the short story and wondered upon arrival of the book ENDER'S GAME how Card could possibly make the book better, wonder no longer, but do go read the book. Again, Card has done a marvelous job. For those of you who have never read any of Orson Scott Card's work, DO. ENDER'S GAME, like THE WORTHING CHRONICLES (or "The Hot Sleep") is a hard book to put down. The short story is filled out very well in the book, and taken futher to a very satisfying end. ENDER'S GAME is out in hardback now, for ~$13, and I'd say it's worth it. Card is such a good writer that it only just now occured to me to note that he is the only author I know of who uses a six-year-old main character convincingly in an adult SF story. This is good stuff. Hey, Card, thanks....keep up the good work!! S.Schwartzberg arpa: sonia@aids-unix ------------------------------ From: intelca!cem@topaz (Chuck McManis) Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly) Date: 28 Jan 85 16:18:01 GMT Wasn't TFotD published as a three part series in Analog not to long ago? (Not to long = ~2yrs) Or was the book made up of the articles? Seems a lot of multiparters are ending up as books these days (Witness D. Palmers Emergence) and had thought this was just one more such. The Analog story concerned the investigation of a remarkable double planet system with floating intelligent blobs that lived in a big bubble of water that got moved between planets, etc. It had a ship called the Dragon Fly, and a christmas bush. Is this the same story? --Chuck {ihnp4,fortune}!dual\ {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/ ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Kuttner revival Date: 29 Jan 85 12:07:36 GMT > From: wlcrjs!rhesmith (Dick Smith) > rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes: >>Sure and I havent read a Gallegher (sp?) story in years and years. >>I'm all for a Kuttner revival. > > You sf-lovers readers have no sense of time. If I'm reading this > stuff right, Henry Kuttner died in 1958. You miss the point entirely. The idea for a Kuttner "revival" is to *get his books back in print*, not to get him to write more. Sheesh. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: unm-cvax!cs2532aa@topaz Subject: Re: How about some reviews of Integral Trees? Date: 29 Jan 85 09:35:12 GMT On Larry Niven's /The Integral Trees/ Publisher: Del Rey, February (!) 1985, 272pp. Micro-review: Well worth the cover price ($3.50? I have an old copy of DUNE that only cost 95 cents, *sigh*...) More in-depth review: /The Integral Trees/ is the latest novel of Larry Niven to become available in paperback, and it's pretty good. It is NOT a Known Space novel, but rather is set in the universe of The State, a/k/a the LESHY CIRCUIT series. The only other novel available that's set in this universe is /A World Out of Time/. The novel is about, as the rear cover blurb states, "...a fully fleshed culture of evolved humans who live without real gravity in the gas torus that revolves about a neutron star." Due to the lack of gravity in the environment, the plant life that exists in the torus is pretty strange. The most unusual of the types of plant give the book its name. An integral tree is a tree that, due to the winds in the torus (or "smoke ring") grows in the shape of a huge integral sign. The humans, who are decended from the mutineers of a State ship, live in the tufts of green growth at either end of the tree. I really enjoyed the book. It's in Niven's usual style, gets the story across pretty well, and appears to be scientifically accurate, (nothing leaps from the pages and graps you by the throat screaming "THIS CAN'T HAPPEN! IT VIOLATES EVERY RULE OF PHYSICS KNOWN TO MAN!"). Niven includes the now-standard list of /Dramatis Personae/ and a Glossary at the end, a nice touch although I only looked at the cast list once, after putting the book down for a day or so. Several diagrams are also included which may help some to understand some of the physical situations in the book. The introduction to /Limits/, the Niven story collection that came out at the same time as /Integral Trees/, states that a sequel (Niven refers to the two books as Siamese Twins) to /Trees/ called /The Smoke Ring/ will be out sometime after the release in March of /Footfall/, the latest brick by Niven and Jerry Pournelle. (Niven for quality, Pournelle for quantity :-).) If you don't like Niven, you will probably not like this book. "Think of it as evolution in action." HiHo, .rne. USnail: Ernie Longmire 311 Don St. SE Los Lunas NM 87031 UUCP: {purdue,cmc12,ihnp4}!lanl!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa {csu-cs,pur-ee,gatech,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 19:55:29-CST From: Douglas Good Subject: Perils of Gwendoline... I'm a bit confused by this conversation. Some time last year a movie called The Perils of Gwendoline in the Land of the Yik Yak came out. It didn't go over too well and didn't hang around too long. Could it be the same movie? A pre-release? Or is it just something totally different? Anyway...just thought I'd ask... Gwedoline - "I belong to you body and soul..." Hero - "Oh brother..." --Doug Good All opinions here are that of me and my computer... ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 18:32:15-PST From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon Subject: Edison's Conquest I forgot to mention...I believe the story (book?) was written by one Garrett P. Serviss. Or then, I could be totally mistaken. Maybe Steven Garrett? By the way, I forgot the pun which was to be included in my earlier Edison's message. Perhaps we should consider it Recalled by Sender. Or unrecalled, as it were. Or not. Andy Gideon Gideon@SU-Score.ARPA P.S. I just read the outline "Down in Flames" by Larry Niven. I was dated 1977. Did anything ever come of it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 23:31:44-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: bad SF movies I'm sort of an authority in the subject of bad movies (I'm well on the way towards acquiring the definitive Edward D. Wood collection). Here's my list of bad SF: . Plan Nine From Outer Space - the King of bad SF . Rocky Horror Picture Show - the Queen of bad SF . Bride of the Monster - Ed Wood does it again . Revenge of the Dead - newly-released Ed Wood flick, sequel to Bride of the Monster and Plan Nine . Star Trek: The Motion Picture - dull, unoriginal, and stupid! . Fire Maidens from Outer Space - you haven't lived if you haven't seen the Fire-Maidens dancing to "Stranger in Paradise" . Robot Monster - guy in a monkey suit wearing a diving helmet . Battlestar Galactica - remember Cobol, the mother planet of humanity? . Buck Rogers - Battlestar regurgitated . Superman III - painfully dull, boring, and omnipresent . TRON - video games gone beserk . Day of the Dolphin - we want to save these??? . Wargames - public understanding of computers set back 20 years . Queen of Outer Space - Zsa Zsa leads a bunch of man-hungry Amazons on Venus . Red Planet Mars - God lives on Mars, and beats them nasty Commies . The Brain that Wouldn't Die - surgeon keeps decapitated sweetie alive ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985 07:56-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Worst SF Movies Certainly up there with the worst would be "TARGET EARTH", an early 50's space robots attempt to take over Manhattan flick complete with cardboard robots. I made a better looking costume for my son last Halloween. Another was "GOG" in which, as I recall, no one got to see the aliens. They just controlled everything from their spaceship in orbit...really dumb...the kind of movie that makes you glad there are commercials. What's all this about "The Fox and the Hound"...what's this got to do with SF? Next we'll be talking about Mary Poppins and her anti-grav umbrella. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 29 Jan 1985 08:05:17-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: spoofs and/or "trash" Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but the public just wasn't ready for it! Gaylene ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash" Date: 30 Jan 85 05:52:24 GMT > From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan > DTN:523-4523) > Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone > that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there > remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but > the public just wasn't ready for it! Hmmm... was this the one that starred Richard Benjamin, and had a plant named Ficus Panderatis for a navigator? I remember it, and I liked it, but I don't know who wrote it. A good bet would be the Airplane/Police Squad folks, though ... it had that kind of feel. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ From: panda!mjr@topaz (Michael J. Repeta) Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash" Date: 30 Jan 85 02:40:34 GMT >Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone >that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there >remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but >the public just wasn't ready for it! If I remember correctly, Quark was about the adventures of a galactic garbage ship and its crew. Richard Benjamin played the captain, and two blonde, buxom, appropriately-clad twins (REAL twins) played the crew; there was also a very stereotypical robot. The first episode involved Benjamin coming into possession of "THE SOURCE" and was not bad; I can't recall any other episodes. (Quark was the captain's name.) I can't remember who wrote it; I would guess that Mr. Benjamin was a contributor. Mike Repeta decvax!genrad!panda!mjr G.VARK%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Jan 85 11:15:31-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #31 >but maybe Maia beams the neutrinos through the top of her head or >in some non-harmful direction. Or maybe she just converts them to >tachyons. What I want to know is who this person was who could do everything Maia did. Mayebe a few FRP-characters I have encountered could do the trick, but that is as far as I will go.... -Laurence ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: OTHERWORLD Date: 29 Jan 85 16:42:54 GMT OTHERWORLD A TV review by Mark R. Leeper OTHERWORLD is CBS's current offering for primetime sci-fi. And I mean sci-fi, not science fiction. Through pyramid power and an alignment of the planets a lovable American family is transported to the Planet of the Fascists. The family, led by POLICE SURGEON veteran Sam Groom, was transported from Egypt to the alien planet (or parallel universe), but the other world is *very* American. It has American language(!), American foods (like corn, American clothing, even hula hoops. The aliens have independently even developed our popular metaphysics, as an alien female talks about how people have souls. The planet is divided into regions with different societies separated by "Forbidden Zones." There is some possibility there for ideas, but they will probably be lost on the cutting room floor. There were some decent jibes at generic food (perhaps inspired by REPO MAN), but there was little that would make me want to tune in again. (Evelyn C. Leeper for) Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!lznv!mrl ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: THE PRISONER returns Date: 29 Jan 85 12:03:13 GMT > From: nsc!chuqui (Chuck Von Rospach) > The local PBS station, KTEH (54 in San Jose) just announced that > they will be starting a run of the series 'The Prisoner' starting > in March. For all of you in the KTEH viewing area, rejoice and get > your VCR's tuned up. For the rest of you, start yelling at your > PBS stations. The shows ARE available, all they need is some > persuasion... Another reason to support PBS stations.... > (*yipee!*) It should also be noted that, according to Patrick McGoohan in a local interview (he's in Boston doing a play), the entire PRISONER series will be available on videocassette sometime this year. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jan 85 14:23:41 PST (Tue) From: Sonia Schwartzberg Subject: Whoites or Trekies? As we were watching a Dr. Who episode last night, my friend wondered aloud whether there were more Trekies or more Whoites, since Dr. Who has been around for a longer span of time than Star Trek. I told him I'd post the question to this digest and see what people thought of the difference in numbers between the fans of each of these series. As a more specific question, since Dr. Who is a BBC produced series, can we assume that it has a greater following in England than does Star Trek? Also, I asked a Who question some time ago which went something like this "I've just seen my first Dr. Who episode and I have only one question: how does she keep that hat on her head?", to which I recieved a number of "'She' WHO?!?" replies. I would like to comment that while there are indeed a lot of women hanging around the TARDIS, I have yet to see more than one with a hat balanced precariously on her head. (To those of you who responded "How about a hat pin", thanks, and I'll shut up now...) S.Schwartzberg arpa: sonia@aids-unix ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Feb 85 0949-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #36 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 1 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 36 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Asprin & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Kuttner & May & New Books & Some Comments & Books for Movies & Bluejay Books & The Sciencs Fiction Book Club, Films - 1984, Television - American Playhouse SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reed!purtell@topaz (Elizabeth Purtell) Subject: Re: So Long, And Thanks .... Date: 28 Jan 85 23:25:12 GMT Interesting set of questions. I would hazard that the answer to the question about Trillian and Zaphod is that Hey - Zaphod was a really cool dude, why shouldn't she want to marry him and have his children? I also sincerely hope that Marvin isn't dead. It would be a shame to break up a great team like that. Is it really true that there will be no more? I had heard about the movie, but hadn't heard that that would mean the end of the books as well. How sad... Lady Godiva ------------------------------ From: ukma!red@topaz (Red Varth) Subject: Re: Books to read - a good new author Date: 28 Jan 85 20:17:52 GMT Yep, Robert Asprin is a funny author all right. Trouble is, he goofed when he changed artists. Kelly Freas did the original editions of "Another Fine Myth" and "Myth-Conceptions". Phil Folglio (sp?) did "Myth-Directions" and "Hit or Myth". All of them quite humorus. But Kelly is a MUCH better artist. Red ------------------------------ Date: Wed 30 Jan 85 11:51:56-PST From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #33 Re: Donaldson's tripe: NOT EVEN AS A D&D CAMPAIGN! Rich ------------------------------ From: bgsuvax!schultz@topaz (Steven Schultz) Subject: RE: TC the unbeliever Date: 31 Jan 85 16:12:41 GMT >From cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) Sun Feb 6 01:28:16 206 >My question, after reading the first book why did the publisher >even look at a second? They certainly got better as the series >progressed but I still reccomend to friends who pick up the series >to skip the first one and start with the second. Sorry, Chuck, but I feel you have made an error in judgement. The first book is not as exciting as the second, but, it lays the ground work and explains what TC is discovering about the land. For instance, what hurtloam is, who Lena is, Artarian (sp?) and Trell's feelings toward TC . . . these are quite important as are the detailed descriptions of the Land itself. I would have missed so much in the following books if I had skipped the first volume. Steve Schultz bgsuvax!schultz ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Re: Here is the plot. What is the title and author? Date: 1 Feb 85 01:09:47 GMT > This is one of the Gallagher stories by Henry Kuttner. They were > collected in a book called The Proud Robot. (The robot started > out as a bottle opener, he thinks. He hasn't found a use for it > and it just stares at itself in mirrors and complains about the > ugly humans.) > > These stories are fun reading. Gallagher has this habit of making > promises when he's drunk that he has to face up to when sober, > while putting on the pretense of knowing exactly what his clients > want. He spends great amounts of time just trying to find out > *what* he promised to build. And of course, there are the things > that just show up in his lab that seem to have no useful purpose > in life.... > -Dragon -- UUCP: > ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or > dragon@lll-crg I agree with all of the above. The Gallagher stories have also been re-released, about a year and a half ago, in an English edition called "The Proud Robot" (the title of the narcissistic robot story). Other stories by Henry Kuttner and his wife, C. L. Moore, both under their own names and together as "Lewis Padgett" are also well worth reading. C. L. Moore was the creator of Jirel of Joiry and Northwest Smith. As for the latter, forget Stephen King for horror. If you want to read something really disturbing, read NW Smith late some evening or early some morning. Jirel is almost as good. The atmosphere is very dark and *scary*. ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!preece@topaz Subject: Re: Review: Julian May Date: 31 Jan 85 16:54:00 GMT The Many Colored Land series was generally enjoyable, but it was carried on much too long. The third and fourth books were something of a struggle. The first book was a real pleasure. Series tend to go like that, I guess, as the sense of wonder fades, but I think she had to work too hard to keep the plot alive. scott preece gould/csd-urbana ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece ------------------------------ Date: Wed 30 Jan 85 11:38:09-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: New Phantasia Press I just received a new flyer from Phantasia Press. Cuckoo's Egg by C.J. Cherryh 350 copy signed/numbered/boxed $40.00 Trade Edition $17.00 The Kif Strike Back by C.J. Cherryh The sequel to Chanur's Venture 350 copy signed/numbered/boxed $40.00 Trade Edition $17.00 Coming soon from Phantasia Press, the first hardcover edition of the Hugo and Nebula Award winning novel, STARTIDE RISING by David Brin. The first editon of THE UPLIFT WAR, David Brin's sequel to STARTIDE RISING. Also, MEDEA: HARLAN'S WORLD by Harlan Ellison (and others) and more surprises. Trivia quiz: what was the original title to STARTIDE RISING that was on the galley proofs? Hint: look at the mail order book list in the back of the first printing of STARTIDE. Randy. NEFF@SU-SIERRA ------------------------------ Date: Wed 30 Jan 85 11:56:10-PST From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #33 "Riddle of Stars"--well, I read all three of them, so they wern't quite as bad as Donaldson's stuff... And Leigh Brackett, though she is as fine a writer as they came in those days, was NOT the author of Jirel of Joiry. That honour goes to the wonderful C. L. Moore. Rich ------------------------------ From: ee!hsut@topaz Subject: More books for Science Fiction Films Date: 30 Jan 85 01:50:00 GMT I've always thought Zelazny's Amber series would make an excellent movie. There are lots of colorful characters, action, interesting worlds and great possibilities for special effects. Of course most of Zelazny's other books would also make great movies; imagine Isle of the Dead on screen... Also, if someone could competently adapt Delany's Nova for the screen, that would be the ultimate space opera, the thinking man's Star Wars, the space travel movie to end all space travel movies.... Bill Hsu pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 1985 09:43 EST From: Dean Sutherland Subject: Leeper on Bluejay Books > Bluejay Books is a relatively new publishing company run by >Jim Frenkel. It publishes trade paperbacks and hardbacks. Most of >their line seems to be reprints of older novels, but they also >publish some new fiction. Frenkel's memory seems better than his >eye for new talent. I have yet to hear of a good new piece of >fiction that Bluejay has printed, nor a bad reprint. > >from a review by Mark R. Leeper. I must disagree with part of this statement. Bluejay has published "The Door Into Fire" by Diane Duane. So far, Mark Leeper and I are (probably) in agreement as this is a reprint, and is very good. Bluejay has also published "The Door Into Shadow" (also by Diane Duane). This is NOT a reprint, it is the sequel to TDIF and the first (and so far only) edition. It is BETTER than the first book. Thus Bluejay has published at least one good new piece of fiction. Dean F. Sutherland ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 85 15:05 CDT From: lagrone Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest To the readers: I would like your comments and advice about the Science Fiction Book Club; i.e., quality of selections, value of service offered, etc. This is the only book club that I am aware of. Are there others? I am not currently interested in those organizations offering collector's editions, as I can not afford them. I would appreciate any help I can get. ...Regards...David LaGrone Texas Instruments, McKinney, TX ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz Subject: "1984" Date: 29 Jan 85 08:57:26 GMT "1984" can immediately join the ranks of the great horror movies. Other films may have made me jump in my seat, but almost nothing else I have seen was quite as frightening in a deeper sense. To most of us, particularly those who haven't read the book, "1984" is a tired and implausible cliche. The new film version makes it spring to horrid, terrifying life. "1984" is a monster movie. The monster is the beast hidden inside every form of government, a beast which not only wants to control man's every act, but even his every thought. Some governments have the beast better under control than others, but none are without it, and this is George Orwell's warning. Michael Radford's film version brings the beast out into the open and shows us its hideous face close up and completely unmasked. "1984" is a rare achievement, a film that really can make you think. Orwell's story is so well known that I will only sketch its outlines. "1984" is set in a world of perpetual war, where the government uses two-way screens to monitor its citizens and changes language and history for its own purpose. Winston Smith (John Hurt), a minor official in Oceana's Bureau of History, finds himself drawn first into thoughtcrime, then into sexcrime. He and his lover know they will eventually be caught, but can't help themselves. Eventually they are caught, and Smith is tortured and reprogrammed to think correctly. Michael Radford, who wrote the screenplay in addition to directing, has done a superb job of bringing the nightmare world of "1984" to life. It is a world of shortages which may be real and which may be created, of mutable truth whose purpose is to destroy memory, of betrayal so ubiquitous that its occurrence is expected - the only possibility for surprise is its source. "1984" displays a world intentionally made poor, uncomfortable, dirty, and treacherous. Radford and his production team have visualized this world beautifully. There is no shining chrome or futuristic equipment. The streets resemble London after the Blitz, the interiors are drab and filthy. Even the viewing screens are shoddy. To match the oppressive atmosphere of the sets and lighting, Radford employs a slow, deliberate pacing which itself promises disaster to come. The performances are excellent. John Hurt, as has been men- tioned elsewhere, is almost too perfectly cast as Winston Smith. Hurt, living up to his name, has practically made an entire film career based on pain and suffering. He's played a long line of sadists, masochists, victims, and villains. Winston Smith, doomed from the beginning to torture, humiliation, and a final denial of self, is so firmly in the pattern that Hurt could have wound up almost as a caricature. Hurt underplays the role very nicely, though, and shows us Smith's moments of happiness which he believes will make up for the suffering to come. When the agony proves so great that he is willing, even eager to deny and betray anything, the memory of his mistaken belief adds an extra touch of poignancy. Suzanna Hamilton is also fine as Smith's lover. Her sensuality is at sharp contrast to the bleak world around her, so that she seems to be the only living creature in it. "1984" contains Richard Burton's last film role. It is com- mon to over praise the final roles of great actors, especially when posthumous. There is no such danger here, as Burton cannot be over praised for this portrayal. His role as O'Brien, Hurt's inquisitor, is key to the success of the second half of the film. Burton was simultaneously the most mythic and most human of actors. His flaws and his genius were always on full display for all to see. Thus, his brilliant portrayal of a man dedicated to the abolition of both humanity and mythology in favor of bland, unquestioning obedience is particularly disturbing. If "1984" is a horror film, then O'Brien is its monster, or at least its monster's avatar. Burton is absolutely terrifying as a man who will do anything to force conformity to the system. The underlying suggestion that this monster was created by the same process he now employs adds even more to the terror. The calm, reasonable, almost sympathetic way he destroys Winston Smith has the dreadful feel of a routine performed day in and day out. I have not seen a better performance this year. The last few minutes of "1984" are particularly harrowing. Radford leads us to the brink of the smallest glimmer of hope, but leaves us only with maddeningly ambiguous signs. We want to believe that all is not desolation, and the possibility that something may be salvaged is not entirely ruled out, but Radford makes it almost impossible to believe that Big Brother's triumph is less than absolute. The glints of hope which almost certainly are illusory prove much more devastating than the stygian darkness of utter despair. "1984" is one of the most depressing films I have ever seen. It is also one of the most perfect. Perfection is not all in art, but when coupled with vision, it can lead to works of incredible power. "1984" is such a work. It is not for those who demand "a good time" from a film, or for those who do not want to think in the movies, or for those who are satisfied with nothing but a happy ending. Those expecting something more from a film, those not afraid to face up to the true dark side of human behavior (for governments' evil desires come from within us, not from some mystic outside force), those willing to face the logical conclusions of hopeless situations, will appreciate "1984" and perhaps, hopefully, learn from it. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 30-Jan-85 03:10 PST From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD From: Subject: American Playhouse (PBS) To: ASD.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA, TDIR.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA To: PAF.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA, PCL2.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA To: GNOSIS.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA Cc: JANM.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA, LKW.TYM@OFFICE-2.ARPA The general announcement here is that The American Playhouse (PBS) is showing a sci-fi play this week. It is called Overdrawn At The Memory Bank. I thought I had once heard it was good. Most material that the American Playhouse performs is excellent (a personal value judgement on my part). The specific message is for SF Bay Area folks. It will be shown on KTEH channel 54 on tuesday, february 5th at 9:00 pm. I believe there is some other computer-related show that follows it...something on privacy(?) --Bi\\ ------------------------------ From: uiucdcsb!render@topaz Subject: Re: American Playhouse (PBS) Date: 31 Jan 85 18:09:00 GMT A few particulars about the story--it is adapted from a John Varley short and stars Raul Julia in the leading role. From the promos it seems to be very well done and very entertaining. Hal Render University of Illinois {pur-ee, ihnp4} ! uiucdcs ! render render@uiuc.csnet render@uiuc.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Feb 85 1017-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #37 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 1 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 37 Today's Topics: Books - Norton & Smith, Films - Where the Toys Come From & Worst SF Film (6 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 1 Feb 1985 01:40:16-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: Andre Norton's Witch World series > From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] > Is there anyone out there who can give me a Compleat > Bibliography of Andre Norton's Witch World Series? Well, I haven't read any of them, so I can't claim that the following list is gospel. I'm basing this on the way the books are listed in the hardcover edition of 'WARE HAWK. Considering the relatively random order (by publication) they are listed in, I would guess that this is an internally chronologically correct list. N.B. The last entries in each group are collections which were not listed in 'WARE HAWK, so I'm not really sure where they should be listed chronologically. They both seem to have stories set in both regions, but I've put each under the region that seems to be predominate. I'm also not sure that the third "Gryphon" book belongs where I've put it, but it seemed reasonable to put it with the other two. I suppose that I should read these some day. Estcarp (Eastern Continent) WITCH WORLD 1963 WEB OF THE WITCH WORLD 1964 THREE AGAINST THE WITCH WORLD 1965 WARLOCK OF THE WITCH WORLD 1967 SORCERESS OF THE WITCH WORLD 1968 TREY OF SWORDS 1977 [collection] 'WARE HAWK 1983 SPELL OF THE WITCH WORLD 1972 [collection] High Hallack (Western Continent) HORN CROWN 1981 THE CRYSTAL GRYPHON 1972 GRYPHON IN GLORY 1981 GRYPHON'S EYRIE 1984 [with A.C. Crispin] YEAR OF THE UNICORN 1965 ZARSTHOR'S BANE 1978 THE JARGOON PARD 1974 LORE OF THE WITCH WORLD 1980 [collection] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 1985 00:50 EST From: INGRIA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Cc: Michael Eisenberg Subject: request for information > From: Michael Eisenberg > I'm looking for the title and author of a book of SF short stories > that I saw about 10 years ago... Can anyone out there help? I > only read a couple of the stories; both, I think, took place on > Mars. One involved some explorers who get trapped in a large > cavern containing a monster that plucks out the eyes of its > victims (pretty gruesome, huh?). Another involves a man who > (along with a party of others) finds a sort of "ghost town" in > which the people were killed by weird creatures that enfold > themselves about the heads of their prey. (Also pretty gruesome.) The author was Clark Ashton Smith. The first story is ``The Dweller in the Depths''; the second, ``The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis''. The details are as you describe them and both stories do indeed take place on Mars. The collection I have them in is called @i[Xiccarph], and it was published by Ballantine. I'm not sure this particular collection is still in print, but various collections of Smith's short stories are, so you should be able to find some collection(s) of his with these stories in them. Smith was one of the ``Lovecraft circle'' and four paperback collections of his short stories were issued by Ballantine between 1970 and 1973, hard on the heels of their paperback Lovecraft collections. The other three were @i[Zothique], @i[Hyberborea], and @i[Poseidonis]. If you like ``The Dweller in the Gulf'', you'll probably also like ``The Weaver in the Vault'', in @i[Zothique]. > I know this is all rather vague; I'm not even positive about the > information presented above (it's been a long time). But I do > remember that the book was terrifically written... Does this ring > a bell, anyone? Yes, Smith is an excellent craftsman. (He also drew and made sculptures.) There's something about Smith's stories that really stick with you. His universe is probably the most malevolent I've come across in fiction, but his stories are so hauntingly told, that their images stay in your memory. -30- Bob (``Facilis descensus Avernus'') Ingria ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 85 10:14:15 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: An Interesting Movie, On Videotape We turned up an obscure gem in the Children's section of the local video rental store: WHERE THE TOYS COME FROM This is an animated documentary/entertainment, detailing the quest of two of those little $1.98 wind-up toys to discover where they (and all other toys) come from. They ask their owner (as a child, they can talk with one another). They go to the toy museum, the store, and ultimately, to the factory in Japan. This is high on charm. The animation is stop-action or simply voice-overs to toys doing their normal thing, I suspect. It's surprisingly delightful. The chief animator's father worked for Disney. For children of all ages. This reminded me faintly of Mike Jitlov's Disney/Mickey Mouse short with all the Mousiana -- except, of course, without the mind-boggling, sensory overloading attack on the boggled mind. Are there any Jitlov tapes being released? Also: 3 episodes of the Prisoner are being released, on a single tape. Wa-hoo! Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 85 00:12 EST From: William M. York Subject: Re: Dark Star > From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) > >> jjchew@utcs.UUCP (John Chew) writes: >> What? A discussion on bad SF movies without one mention of John >> Carpenter's "Dark Star"? An alien mascot made out of a >> spray-painted beach-ball? Space effects where they don't bother >> trying to hide the wires? And Alan Dean Foster's ... er, >> marvellous novelization which... er... captured the flavour of the >> movie exactly! > > Not quite fair, _Dark Star_ was, I believe, a student production > and quite good , that considered. My favorite moment was when the > audience realized that the back packs on the space suits are > muffin tins, but given the budget that implies they did very well. Very well indeed. Don't let the low-budget sets fool you. This is a real movie, played for laughs. When the spaceship comes to a halt in 0 time, you KNOW it's a joke, not a mistake. That alien beachball had more personality than most of the human actors in "Just Imagine" (and maybe even "Alien"). One of my favorite scenes is the review of a video diary kept by one of the crew members, Pinback. This very funny 5 minute segment shows the character's decent into parinoia over the course of the mission, while at the same time filling the audience in on the events of the past few years. Another classic is acting-captain Doolittle's attempts to teach one of the "smart" bombs phenominology in order to convince it that its orders to destruct may have no basis in reality. GO SEE THIS MOVIE. ("Contratulations! You have decided to clean the elevator!") Several years ago Dark Star showed up at a local theater in Cambridge. Some idiot of a movie critic at the Boston Glob wrote the whole thing off as a cheap attempt to capitalize on the success of the big-budget SF movies like Star Wars and Alien. Unfortunately for him, Dark Star was made in 1974 or '75. > BTW, did anyone notice that part of the ending is stolen directly > from a Ray Bradbury story? Yes, the story is "Kaleidoscope". I still have vivid memories of the emotional impact of the story. "Benson Arizona, the warm wind through your hair. My body flies the galixy, my heart longs to be there. Benson Arizona, same stars up in the sky, But they looked so much brighter when we shared them, you and I." -the theme song from Dark Star ------------------------------ From: ukma!edward@topaz (Edward C. Bennett) Subject: Dark Star Date: 29 Jan 85 23:49:04 GMT But, but, but......wasn't Dark Star *supposed* to be bad? i.e. a parody. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jan 85 00:38 EST From: William M. York Subject: Worst SF Movie To: Shiffman@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM > From: Hank Shiffman > >> From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss) >> >> Ok choices, but the all time worst must be: >> "Glen or Glenda" : Bela again, in a touching, shocking, >> revealing look at transvestites. > Naw, not Bela. The part of Glen(da) was portrayed by Edward Wood, > director of this opus as well as Plan 9. Bela Lugosi was indeed in "Glen or Glenda". He plays the role of the "omnicient" narrator of the story. In one scene we watch him watching a very low-grade "porn" movie involving mild bondage and whipping; no explanation. In another wonderful split-screen effect, Bela's eyes, which fill the top half of the screen, are overlooking footage of a buffalo stampede. Double wow. His part in G|G is even more pointless and annoying than that in Plan 9. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 85 09:47:24 PST (Thursday) Subject: Bad SF Movies - Not Rocky! From: Couse.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA >> . Rocky Horror Picture Show - the Queen of bad SF Now wait just a minute here Mark. Rocky is high camp - outrageous on purpose. Rocky shouldn't be on a list of bad SF movies for many of the same reasons that Dark Star is exempt. (I know, you just included it on the list so that you could call it the "Queen of bad SF", right?) To really be considered one of the "worst" movies of all time, I think that a movie has to be a) a ridiculously pretentious attempt at serious movie making, b) a low budget and poorly thought out attempt to jump on and exploit the "SF market" bandwagon, or c) a blatant insult to the intelligence of the audience. If you've only seen Rocky Horror once, go again. The movie grows on you after a while. After about the tenth viewing, when you can sing all the songs and recite all the lines as well as you can for every Star Trek episode, you may find that you enjoy it. Then again, you may no longer be sane any more. /Mary (I've always been pressed slightly off center!) ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 1 Feb 1985 01:51:13-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: The worst sf movies ever made I'm not sure that I can decide what is *the* worst sf film ever made --- there are so many of them after all. However a list of nominees from me would include: all of the NEUTRON or AZTEC MUMMY films ATTACK OF THE CRAB MONSTERS ATTACK OF THE MUSHROOM PEOPLE CREATURE OF DESTRUCTION FRANKENSTEIN VS. THE SPACE MONSTER HUMANOIDS FROM THE DEEP MARS NEEDS WOMEN MISSION STARDUST PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE TREASURE OF THE FOUR CROWNS ZONTAR, THE THING FROM VENUS --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|... !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: partain%pisces.DEC@topaz (Chuck Partain, SHR3/E-8, DTN 237-3157 From: LOCATION G-23) Subject: re: the truly worst movies of all times Date: 31 Jan 85 13:36:54 GMT To: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA I REALLY CAN'T BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT ABOUT THE STAR WARS MOVIES. THEY GROSSED AN UNBELIEVABLE AMMOUNT OF CASH... Ten million people weren't wrong!!!!!! chuck partain ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies? Date: 30 Jan 85 23:44:21 PST (Wed) From: Alastair Milne > As we were watching a Dr. Who episode last night, my friend > wondered aloud whether there were more Trekies or more Whoites, > since Dr. Who has been around for a longer span of time than Star > Trek. I told him I'd post the question to this digest and see > what people thought of the difference in numbers between the fans > of each of these series. As a more specific question, since Dr. > Who is a BBC produced series, can we assume that it has a greater > following in England than does Star Trek? Hard to say. I *hope* there are more for Dr. Who (tells you where my sympathies lie), but given the spread of commerical television .... I think you mean simply that "Dr. Who" is English. I think it's actually made by one of ITV's (Independent TeleVision) divisions, Lionheart. ITV is Britain's commercial network , though not nearly so commercial as the North American ones. Greater popularity in England? I would expect so, but I don't know. I do know that there was a paper that used Daleks as a metaphor for something terrible (my mother saw the headline over somebody's shoulder), so I assume the influence is widely spread. (If you don't know what Daleks are, just ask the net, then open your mailbox wide). > Also, I asked a Who question some time ago which went something > like this "I've just seen my first Dr. Who episode and I have only > one question: how does she keep that hat on her head?", to which I > recieved a number of "'She' WHO?!?" replies. I would like to > comment that while there are indeed a lot of women hanging around > the TARDIS, I have yet to see more than one with a hat balanced > precariously on her head. (To those of you who responded "How > about a hat pin", thanks, and I'll shut up now...) The only one of the Doctor's varied companions I remember who perched a hat on the back of her head was Romana (more properly Romanadvaradnalunda (sp?)) in her second generation (she was another Time Lord, or Time Lady, as the Doctor always said). The hat had a very narrow string that went under her chin, and was essentially invisible unless you were looking for it. A later episode shows it hanging by the string from a peg. I suspect the episode you saw was "City of Death", since that is the only one I remember where she wore that hat. It was shot on location in Paris, with lots of marvellous scenery. That episode was also noteable for having both Catherine Schell and John Cleese (separately; Cleese had a very quick, but very funny cameo toward the end). The TARDIS had landed in a Left Bank art gallery, where it was curiously at home. NOTE: as I mentioned in a previous message, DON'T judge these shows by their names. "City of Death" is actually very good. Alastair Milne "How about a quick stagger up the Champs Elysees, and a bite at Maxim's?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 85 17:26:21 EST From: Anne Rich Cc: sonia@aids-unix Subject: Whoites vs Trekies From personal experience I would have to guess that there are more trekies than whoites. At least in this area, Star Trek episodes are shown pretty consistently, while Dr. Who comes and goes. I went to the Dr. Who Convention in Philadelphia last year around this time, and Tom Baker said that while Dr. Who has a fairly large following in the U.S., there aren't really any "whoites" in England - the show evidently isn't really all that big there. I wish I could answer your question about the female character with the hat, but, as you've probably gotten from other readers, you'd have to be more specific. There have been so many female leads on Dr. Who over the years - Teegan, Nyssa, Leela, Romana just off the top of my head. Anne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Feb 85 1106-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #38 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 2 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 38 Today's Topics: Books - Serviss & White & Zelazny (2 msgs), Television - Quark (7 msgs) & Otherworld, Miscellaneous - Space Burial & Mailing Address for Boskone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 1 Feb 1985 02:49:45-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: EDISON'S CONQUEST OF MARS > From: Andrew "Droid" Gideon > "Edison's Conquest of Mars" was, as I recall, a sequel to > War_of_the_Worlds. I recall enjoying it long ago, but I > do not recall where to find it again. > > Does anyone out there know it, and/or where it can be found? Well, to give you a complete history, Garrett P. Serviss' novel, EDISON'S CONQUEST OF MARS was originally serialized in THE NEW YORK EVENING JOURNAL in 1898, within a couple of months of Well's WAR OF THE WORLDS making its first appearance in the magazine COSMOPOLITAN (no relation to the current magazine). It remained unpublished in book form until a small press, Carcosa House (no relation to Karl Edward Wagner's current publishing outfit), published it in 1947. The novel remained out-of-print until it was published in paperback in abridged form (edited by Forrest J Ackerman) in 1969 by Powell Books, under the title INVASION OF MARS. Just a few short years later, Ackerman again reprinted it, this time under the title PURSUIT TO MARS, as a serial in PERRY RHODAN, when he changed the RHODAN books into a book-format magazine. It appeared in PERRY RHODAN #16-22 (1972-1973). It's my guess that this is where you first read it. There. Aren't you sorry now that you asked? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: James White Date: 30 Jan 85 03:15:10 GMT >From: ark!koppe (Kees Huyser) >_Star Surgeon_ by James White was published in 1963. > >This book is also about extraterrestials in hospitals. >It is the second in a series of three books, the first >one titled _Hospital Station_. > >The third title I have forgotten, ... This is the "Sector General" series, which due to some new books is now comprised of: HOSPITAL STATION 1962 [collection] STAR SURGEON 1963 not to be confused with the Alan Nourse book of the same title MAJOR OPERATION 1971 [collection] AMBULANCE SHIP 1979 [collection] SECTOR GENERAL 1983 [collection] STAR HEALER 1985 [just released] Though one might think so, the collection MONSTERS AND MEDICS is *not* part of the series. There is also one Sector General story in his collection THE ALIENS AMONG US. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: ccice2!bwm@topaz (Brad Miller) Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From Date: 30 Jan 85 18:20:14 GMT ddern@bbncch writes: >To continue the listing of Zelazny's earlier gems, let's also not >forget > ISLE OF THE DEAD Of his novels, I like this and "And Call Me >Conrad..." best. The writing is exquisite; the ideas good; the >plot sound. >Much of Zelazny's earlier short fiction are also real humdingers; >e.g. > "The Doors of his Face, The Lamps of His Mouth" (or something >like that...) > "A Rose For Ecclesiastes" (still gives me goosebumps to read it) Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find "And Call Me Conrad.." it was more recently published as "Roadmarks". A must read. Brad Miller ...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax, ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm ------------------------------ From: ihu1j!gek@topaz (glenn kapetansky) Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From Date: 31 Jan 85 15:59:55 GMT I was just re-reading Z's Creatures of Light and Darkness (for the umpteenth time; I STILL find new treasures!), and I thought the following absolution of the "non-theistic, non-sectarian sort" was worth sharing: "Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen." glenn kapetansky "Think of it as evolution in action" ...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek ------------------------------ From: cvl!hsu@topaz (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash" Date: 30 Jan 85 15:51:36 GMT > From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan > DTN:523-4523) > Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone > that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there > remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but > the public just wasn't ready for it! Of course we remember. There just isn't enough bizarre Richard Benjamin stuff floating around to throw any away. Unfortunately, that was before any of us paid any attention to the credits. But for those whose memories need jogging: 1) Classic title shots featuring something like Intergalactic Garbage Disposal Agency ship flying up to and munging trash bag 2) Phicus, the plant/human. (bizarre pollination ritual: lie on back, put arms and legs in air, shake slightly while making whooping sound) 3) Plasma creature eating lots of Pluto bits. NOW do you remember? =Dave Hsu= "Aaack...no flames!" (301) 454-4526 ARPA: hsu@cvl CSNET: hsu@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!hsu Snail Mail: Center for Automation Research Computer Vision Lab University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 (Disclaimer: Somebody may or may not refuse responsibility for anything herein. Most everything is a trademark or service mark of somebody, maybe somebody else) ------------------------------ From: ihuxi!okie@topaz (B.K. Cobb) Subject: Spoofs, to wit, Quark Date: 30 Jan 85 20:53:06 GMT Quark? Ah, yes, I remember it semi-well. I actually kind of sort of enjoyed the show myself. Who could forget the two beautiful cloned sisters and a first officer who is actually a plant and has to "pollenate" every once in a while? I also don't remember who wrote/directed/produced the show, but I remember that Richard Benjamin played Quark. Anybody else out there remember this? Can you answer these questions and add some more details of your own? B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 1985 at 07:38 EST From: ZEICHICK%MAINE.BITNET@Berkeley Subject: QUARK >Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone >that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there >remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but >the public just wasn't ready for it! Ah! My all-time favorite SF show. If I remember properly, Quark was one Captain in a space fleet, headed by an alien named "The Head". There were several other space captains and various ships, but each time they returned to base for orders, Captain Quark was given the Space Garbage Truck. It was always amusing, seeing his ship approach a great starship, and pick up one tremendous "Space Baggie".... All of the characters were good: The Head (all you saw was a tremendous head) The Head's Assistant, Palindrone (?sp) Captain Quark (Richard Benjamin) Ficus (Quark's first officer, a plant reminding me of Spock) Two female twins (can't recall what they actually did) A half male/half female (played by an effeminate male) and a few others (well, it's been a long time) Oh, and there were alien baddies, of course. I don't think Quark picked up their garbage. Does anyone know where videos of the pilot(s) and/or episodes could be found? I've been trying the local video store regularly, and they think I'm insane (excuse me, can you order Quark for me...) -Alan "He's dead, Jim." Quick, which episode? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jan 85 09:31 EST From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #35 Quark was one of my favorite shows, although I knew that it would not last even as long as it did. Another of my favorites was "When things Were Rotten" a Robin Hood spoof with Dick Gauteay (sp) (Himie from Get Smart) as Robin and Dick Van Patten (dad in 8 Is Enough) as Friar John. Anyway, Quark was the show about Adam Quark, commander, United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol, mission: To Clean up all the trash in the Milky Way (trash as in garbage, but the end up disposing of some nasties along the way). The ship's mascot was Ergo, which was an alien pet that was very hungary and always tried to eat Quark. The robot was named Andy and was put together by the pilot episode's scientist, the eminate scientist Dr. O. B. Mudd, who lost an eye some years ago when he fell asleep while looking into his microscope. In the short lived series, Mudd was replaced as stated in previous msgs by a plant being. The chief engineer, Gene/Jean is both sexes. And of course, my favorites, the second in command are the Bettys, one of which is a clone, if only we knew which one... The first show was a special hour long double episode about when Quark finds/gets/saves THE SOURCE. But I had seen (and recorded Audio only) and had all but forgotten the pilot that was shown about a year previously. This pilot was used to end the series. In it, we see The Head, Quark's boss, which is a huge head (I have a headache the size of a supernova...) and Palendrome was The Head's aide (played by Mindy's dad in Mork). It was a great SF TV show, a lot of gags, site jokes, and all around fun. The pilot opens with a big, intense scene where the ship gets behind a massive other ship and grabs an ejected massive garbage baggy. Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ From: ihuxo!dpa@topaz (Dave Allen) Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark Date: 31 Jan 85 15:11:41 GMT As I remember, Quark aired about 4 or five years ago and there were only 4 episodes. I enjoyed it while it lasted. Besides Quark, the captain, the second in command was the "plant" being whose name was something like Ficus which is a Latin work having to do with plants. I can't remember the twins names, but I believe they were clones. The other member of the crew was another alien who kept changing gender and was called Gene/Jean. Thier ship was an interplanetary garbage truck and they went around collecting space baggies. Can't seem to remember any of the plots. Probably just as well. Dave Allen ihuxo!dpa AT&T Bell Labs Rm: IH 4A-409 Tel:(312) 979-(4378) ------------------------------ From: bgsuvax!schultz@topaz (Steven Schultz) Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark Date: 31 Jan 85 16:33:11 GMT I remember the guy who played the part of the plant wearing a pressure guage in his ear to monitor his "turgor pressure." He was also caught "pollinating" with the daughter of a visiting ship's captain (I think) and she wound up getting blasted with a gun that changed her into a pillar of stone (the fateful blast was aimed at the plant-man). It was a good spoof. Steve Schultz bgsuvax!schultz ------------------------------ From: watrose!vljohnson@topaz (Lee Johnson) Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark Date: 31 Jan 85 07:34:29 GMT I only saw the show a couple of times, but I remember the pollination sequence quite well. The first officer (the "Vegeton") and a woman (I don't remember, but she was probably a Vegeton, too) were lying on the floor, side by side, with their arms and legs sticking straight into the air. Both were making beeping or peeping noises. Really quite silly. Gee, and I almost thought the show was a figment of my imagination! Regards, Lee Johnson ------------------------------ From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: OTHERWORLD Date: 29 Jan 85 03:24:39 GMT I haven't seen any comments on the new TV series OTHERWORLD here. I saw the first episode rather by accident (I was trolling for something to watch without benefit of a tv guide) and I missed the first five minutes. To summarize briefly (is that redundant???), a family somehow (the first five minutes, remember?) on vacation in Egypt enters a pyramid and comes out on another earth-like world ("Toto, something tells me we're not in Kansas anymore.") with evil army-types and androids. I cannot tell whether I will like the series, although I enjoyed the first episode. (And no, their names are not the Robinsons and no, there is not a robot yelling "Warning! Warning! Danger approaching!") Anyone else see it? Fred Avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!grendel!avolio ARPA: grendel!avolio@seismo.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: Space Burial Date: 29 Jan 85 15:33:45 GMT The latest venture of Space Services, Inc. (owner of the Conestoga rockets) is ***Space Burial*** Yes, you can be buried in space! Just have someone send your cremated remains ("cremains," as they were called in the news story on NPR this morning) to SSI (not to be confused with the Princeton-based Space Studies Institute, also called SSI), and they will further reduce them to fit into a capsule approximately 1" by 1-1/4" which will be inscribed with your name, social security number, and (optional) religious symbol of your choice. Then a capsule containing several thousand of these will be placed into low earth orbit (through the Van Allen Belt, which has very little satellite traffic). Oh, yes--the nosecone will be reflective so that your loved ones can, with the aid of a telescope, watch your remains cruise through the sky. (The cost of all this is $3900, which SSI claims is not much more than an earth-based funeral. Of course, there's the cost of cremation on top of that, and the telescope,...) This brings a whole new meaning to the hymn, "Nearer, My God, to Thee"! Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 30 Jan 1985 12:12:41-PST From: mccutchen%grdian.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ann McCutchen DTN From: 8-283-7422) Subject: Mailing address for Boskone One of my coworkers showed me an SFL message requesting an electronic mail address for someone involved with Boskone. That's me (among others). People may send me mail at Digital, address GRDIAN::MCCUTCHEN. I will read and respond to my mail until 5:00 P.M. on Tuesday, February 12th. After I return from the con, I will forward or relay any messages to the approriate parties, including suggestions for next year. -- Ann Broomhead (McCutchen) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Feb 85 2344-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #39 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 3 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 39 Today's Topics: Books - Dewdney & Gregorian & Niven (2 msgs) & Orwell & Smith & Williams & Zelazny (3 msgs) & Bluejay Books, Films - The Worst SF Film (5 msgs) & The Best SF Film & 2010 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Feb 85 11:33 CST From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: A.K. Dewdney on the net? To: human-nets@RUTGERS.ARPA Does anyone know if there is a net address for Alexander K. Dewdney, author of "Planiverse?" He is a CS Professor at the U of Western Ontario. -- Earl (Boebert -at HI-Multics) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 85 22:27:05 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: What ever happened to Joyce Ballou Gregorian? Ace published two of her books, "The Borken Citadel" and its sequel, "Castledown". The blurb in the back of the first book said she was writing a third book, but the second makes no mention of it. Did she ever write it? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Feb 85 11:29 PST From: Todd.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: The Integral Trees /The Integral Trees/ , Larry Niven Del Rey books, SF Book Club edition, copyright 1983 212 pages. Hmm ... Evidently I liked the book less than some others of us in netland. ***** SPOILER WARNING ****** As has already been mentioned, /The Integral Trees/ is set in the universe of The State, a far future political organization reminiscent in some ways of Orwell. In The State, there are two types of people, citizens and corpsicles. Corpsicles are people who have put themselves in suspended animation in the hopes that whatever terminal disease they had would one day be curable. When they are awakened by The State, however, their minds are transferred to the bodies of brainwiped convicted enemies of The State and they are used by The State as slave labor. Their old bodies are disposed of. As has also already been mentioned, The State is the setting of at least one other Niven novel (/A World Out of Time/), and possibly some short stories, though I don't recall ever having seen any. The universe of The State is *not* the same as his 'Leshy Circuit' milieu. As is the case for most Niven writing, I was absorbed enough by it to read it through in one sitting. However, I was not terribly enthusiastic about it afterwards. Niven can always be counted on to construct a believable backdrop and a fairly involved and readable plot. In this case, the action takes place in a zero-g environment, on the surface of "trees" from which the book takes its title. The ends of these otherwise bare trees are shrouded in tufts of foliage, and some semblance of 'gravity' is provided by the tidal forces operating on the trees as they circle a neutron star. Most of the trees are in the center of a gas torus around this star, called the 'smoke ring'. One of these trees is pulled out of the green pastures of the center of the smoke ring, breaks up, and the survivors of the breakup then try to find a new tree to settle on. This being the action in the first third of the book, I'll stop with the details and put in my two cents. First, I'm happy to say that the influence of The State in the book is limited to an artifact or two and the custom of forcibly acquiring slave labor. The State is too obvious a bad guy for me to get worked up rooting against. Second, I am less happy to say that the book is a bare-bones skim through what could have otherwise been a detailed and much more enjoyable story. The book is simply not long enough, and has little if any secondary action. Subplotting is minimal. News that a second book set in the smoke ring will be out soon is heartening. Third, well ... I'm getting a little too used to Niven's style. I half expect each new Niven offering to be up to the standards of "Inconstant Moon" , "Neutron Star", and any one of a number of his other 'Known Space' short stories, and even some of his novels set in that same universe, /Protector/ and /Ringworld/ high on the list. For this reason, I expect this review to be taken with a grain of salt for those who have not read as much Niven as I, and I'd kind of like to hear what other active Niven readers think of the book. If you're madly in love with Niven, you'll probably hate my guts. --- JohnnyT "Things were never more like they used to be than they are now." ------------------------------ Date: Fri 1 Feb 85 16:03:28-PST From: Andrew "Droid" Gideon Subject: Integral_Trees Reply-to: A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW.ARPA I read this when it first came out in hard bound. I am a dedicated Niven fan, and very impatient. Nowadays, I rarely wait for the paperback version of ANYTHING (nowadays being out of college, and having money). Unfortunately, I must comment about Integral_ Trees that while I DID enjoy it a good deal, it was not up to the usual Niven story. The characters were not solving a puzzle, or dealing with any difficulty. Rather, they were tossed about on the winds of fate, and given almost no control of their destiny. The story was mainly an exploration of the Smoke Ring, showing the reading how diverse and fascinating this place is. So, while I highly recommend it (as I said, it is great fun...it truly is a strange new world the reader gets to see), I do not feel that it is up to the standards set by other works from Niven. I hope that the sequel presents a more interesting 'story', now that the world has been at least partially explored. Query: What is this new collection of short stories from Niven? Are these new stories? -Andy Gideon Gideon@SU-Score.ARPA "Any sufficiently advanced technology is obsolete" ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 Feb 85 13:36:22-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: 1984 You know, it's odd how many people think of "1984" as prophecy - failed or otherwise. The working title of the book was "1948" (the year it was written), because Orwell felt that he was writing about what he saw in the world around him. The name was changed by his publishers to make the book sell. Now that we know about the Gulag, there's a certain new edge to the idea of "thoughtcrime". Say - does the Bureau of Network Security read this BBoard ? Don Lindsay Lindsa%Tartan.Arpa ------------------------------ From: ee!hsut@topaz Subject: Re: request for information Date: 1 Feb 85 15:56:00 GMT I've seen some recent reissues of Clark Ashton Smith's stuff, but haven't look at them for publisher, titles etc. since I have all (sorry, most) of Smith's story collections at home in Granada paperbacks with lovely covers. Couldn't resist posting a response; I didn't think anybody read C.A. Smith anymore but us eccentrics who survived morbid childhoods... Seriously though, I really enjoyed Smith's Averoigne stories for the tongue-in-cheek humor and sneaky references to Lovecraft. "The Dark Eidolon" is a very entertaining pastiche of Beckford's Vathek and Arabian Nights type fiction. Mail me something for further info... Bill Hsu pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 85 22:43:47 EST From: DIETZ@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: "Knight Moves" by Walter Jon Williams I just finished "Knight Moves" by Walter Jon Williams, published by Tor. It was a very good read. The style, as George R. R. Martin says in his blurb, is more than a little like early Zelazny. The cover's not bad, either. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 Feb 85 13:25:17-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: Zelazny > Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find > "And Call Me Conrad.." it was more recently published as > "Roadmarks". A must read. Actually, Roadmarks is a different book (Copyright 1979). It's OK, and fun, and Zelazny. The plot is weak, the writing good, and the central idea excellent: there is a Road through time, and the first chapter leaves us heading for Babylon. (That's chapter 2, actually - chapters are numbered 2 1 2 1 ... ). "This Immortal" (Copyright 1966) is better - a classic. Konstantin Kallikanzaros is Commissioner of Arts, Monuments and Archives, and he isn't, um, usual. But he fits his still-radioactive world. READ THIS BOOK. "Doorways in the Sand" (Copyright 1976) is the perfect compromise: a well- plotted romp: a great introduction to SF: LEND THIS BOOK. "When in doubt invoke tradition and improvise." Don Lindsay Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa Quark: What are you doing? Ficus: Waiting For The Bee. ------------------------------ From: kupfer@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike Kupfer) Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From Date: 2 Feb 85 19:24:41 GMT > BTW: For those of you trying to find "And Call Me Conrad.." it > was more recently published as "Roadmarks". A must read. The alternate title for "...And Call Me Conrad" is "This Immortal". "Roadmarks" centers around a road that goes through Time and includes brief appearances by Jack the Ripper and (if I recall correctly) Adolf Hitler (have I got you curious now?). Pick it up when you get your copy of "This Immortal". Mike Kupfer kupfer@Berkeley ...!ucbvax!kupfer "He says, 'Thank you very much, but you can have the bottle back.'" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Feb 1985 16:44 EST From: Dean Sutherland Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #38 >Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find >"And Call Me Conrad.." it was more recently published as >"Roadmarks". A must read. > >Brad Miller ...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax, ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm "Roadmarks" and "And Call Me Conrad..." are completely unconnected. ACMC is definitely the better of the two, but "Roadmarks" is worth a read. Dean F. Sutherland Sutherland@Tartan.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ahuta!mrl@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: Leeper on Bluejay Books Date: 2 Feb 85 18:41:39 GMT >> Bluejay Books is a relatively new publishing company run by >>Jim Frenkel. It publishes trade paperbacks and hardbacks. Most >>of their line seems to be reprints of older novels, but they also >>publish some new fiction. Frenkel's memory seems better than his >>eye for new talent. I have yet to hear of a good new piece of >>fiction that Bluejay has printed, nor a bad reprint. >from a review by Mark R. Leeper. > >I must disagree with part of this statement. Are you accusing me of having heard that DOOR was good and then lying about it? :-) I really had not heard that DOOR INTO FIRE was good, but I have now. Thanx. Mark (now officially on the net) Leeper ------------------------------ From: homxa!aar@topaz (A.RAPPE) Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made Date: 1 Feb 85 17:21:51 GMT You forgot: IT CONQUERED THE WORLD THE FLESH EATERS DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS ETC....ETC... ps: I thought CRAB MONSTERS was very "gripping"(Martha...help me...meet me by the pit...snip snip..) ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie (** small Dark Star spoiler **) Date: 1 Feb 85 18:42:28 GMT Reply-to: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) >Ever wonder how they got that enormous elevator shaft into that >small ship? Better yet, look closely at the size of the bombs vs. the size of the ship, and try to figure out where they stored 20 of those things. (Ye Gads, Dark star was a tardis! They're time lords!) chuq From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach {allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA Life, the Universe, and lots of other stuff is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs ------------------------------ From: ihuxi!okie@topaz (B.K. Cobb) Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made Date: 1 Feb 85 13:51:16 GMT Lest we forget... "Canadian Mounties versus Atomic Monsters" "The Brain Eaters" ...should also be on this list. B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 Feb 85 12:05:34-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: Glen or Glenda/Rocky Horror Picture Show I excluded "Glen or Glenda" (also called: "I Changed My Sex", "He or She") because I didn't consider it SF. I have seen Rocky Horror Picture Show more often than most of the people on this list. I lost count after a hundred or so very early in my RHPS career. For a few years, I played "Riff-Raff" in a local group which did the stage show simultaneously with the movie -- this ended only with the closing of the theatre. RHPS has a special place in my heart, but still it must be considered bad SF. There are several glaring flaws of continuity; anybody who actually tries to ACT the parts will quickly notice how characters make major shifts in their positions without any explanation, not to mention a major cut to a scene some minutes earlier when Rocky is about to come to life. Several of the effects are flawed -- what about the wires pulling Dr. Scott's wheelchair up the stairs? Many of the flaws make for great shouts, such as the observation that Janet never took her panty hose off in spite of several sexual escapades. ------------------------------ From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made Date: 2 Feb 85 00:57:58 GMT Reply-to: berry@zinfandel.UUCP (Berry Kercheval) boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) writes: >I'm not sure that I can decide what is *the* worst sf film ever >made --- there are so many of them after all. However a list of >nominees from me would include: How about TEENAGERS FROM OUTER SPACE, and their wonderful 'pets' the Gargons? Really, now, 200 foot long crayfish??? Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 ------------------------------ From: ukc!lkt@topaz (L.K.Turner) Subject: Best SF movie : A USENET Poll Date: 1 Feb 85 16:59:12 GMT Reply-to: lkt@ukc.UUCP (L.K.Turner) There has been a lot of disscusion about the worst SF movie ever produced. I would be interested to find out what you think is the *Best* SF movie ever produced. I would like to poll the views of all you out in net land, with the aim of summarising the results, to find out what the collective view on this is. So if you are interested send your votes to me via mail to :- ...mcvax!ukc!lkt == L.K.T UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!lkt ( L.K.Turner) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the movie "2010". People who have not yet seen the movie may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann) Subject: Re: 2010 (Oh no, not again) Date: 29 Jan 85 21:58:11 GMT Perhaps I don't understand the full ramifications of Jupiter's becoming a star, but I can't see it having much of an effect on Earth (catrastrophically speaking that is). It seems to me that it would be a very small, cool star (Otherwise, how could life be supported on its former moons?) The energy from it that would reach earth wouldn't be all that tremendous, so why would the earth have to be protected? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Feb 85 0010-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #40 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 40 Today's Topics: Books - Forward (2 msgs) & Lem & New Book Releases, Television - Dr. Who (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, 2 Feb 1985 19:03:33-PST From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Roger H. Goun) Subject: The Flight of the Dragonfly Forward's THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY was published as a three-part serial in the December 1982-February 1983 issues of Analog. Chuck McManis (intelca!cem@topaz) describes the story accurately in V10 #35. However, the intelligent creatures living in Eau's oceans were careful to avoid being swept up into the waterspout that transferred water to the other planetoid. -- Roger ARPA: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Forward's FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY Date: 1 Feb 85 10:23:27 GMT > From: intelca!cem > Wasn't TFotD published as a three part series in Analog not to > long ago? (Not to long = ~2yrs) Or was the book made up of the > articles? Seems a lot of multiparters are ending up as books these > days (Witness D. Palmers Emergence) and had thought this was just > one more such. The Analog story concerned the investigation of a > remarkable double planet system with floating intellegent blobs > that lived in a big bubble of water that got moved between > planets, etc. It had a ship called the Dragon Fly, and a christmas > bush. Is this the same story? You betcha. "Rocheworld" was the name of the three-part serialization of FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY in ANALOG, December 1982 to February 1983. In this case, it isn't that the serial ended up as a book, but that the book was serialized in the magazine. Most of the serials that appear in ANALOG (or any of the magazines, actually) are novels that have already sold for book publication. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Sun 3 Feb 85 17:16:13-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Lem's 'Microworlds' (reveiw) Cc: r-bielak@CUTC20 The following is passed on from a friend of mine who lacks direct net access. Responses sent to me (oc.trei@cu20b.arpa) will be passed on to him. Peter Trei Review of Stanislaw Lem's "Microworlds" --- [ By Richard Bielak, r-bielak%cutc20@cu20b.arpa ] The new book by S. Lem "Microworlds" (HBJ, 1984) is somewhat different from his other books published in English. It is not fiction. "Microworlds" is a collections of essays dealing with science fiction. Lem is a harsh critic of western science fiction, therefore this book is not for the weak-stomached sci-fi fan. The book opens with an autobiographical essay, entitled "Reflections on my life". This essay appeared previously in the New Yorker under a different title. The next three essays: "On the Structural Analysis of Science Fiction", "Science Fiction: A Hopeless Case - with Exceptions", and "Philip K. Dick: A Visionary Among the Charlatans" contain the most severe criticism of the genre. Lem's main objection is that science fiction falls among trivial literature (such as westerns, detective stories, or romantic fiction) despite claims to the contrary. To Lem sci-fi is a consumer good whose production is driven by the whims of the market. Therefore, the quality of a novel or a story is often equated with the number of copies sold. Another problem with the current science fiction writing that Lem sees is its lack of deeper meanings. Although many novels describe in a self-consistent way fantastic settings or events, they are only "empty games". Futhermore, Lem says, "...ninety to ninety eight percent of the empty games in science fiction are very primitive, very naive one-paramter processes. They are almost always based on one or two rules, and in most cases it is the rule of inversion that becomes their method of creation. To write such a story you invert the members of a pair of linked concepts. For example, we think the human body quite beautiful, but in the eyes of an extraterrestrial we are all monsters: in Sheckley's "All the Things You Are" the odor of human beings is poisonous for the extraterrastrials. (...) What appears normal to us is abnormal to others - about half of Sheckley's stories are built on this principle." (pp. 37-38) The deep ideas Lem seeks are not of the type involving sweeping statements about the oneness of man with the universe, God, or whatever. He wants to see more realism in science fiction instead of fairy tale ideas disguised in psedo-scientific terms. To Lem "Science fiction involves the art of putting hypothetical premises into the very complicated stream of sociopsychological occurences. Although this art once had its master in H.G. Wells, it has been forgotten and is now lost." (page. 43) As the titles of the essays suggest Lem considers Philip K. Dick, as an exceptional author. Lem likes P.K. Dick because his novels exhibit more structure and put forth some coherent ideas, even though they are still constructed with "trash" (i.e. telepaths, pre-congs, psi, ESP, etc..). The books that Lem likes most are "Ubik", "Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch", and "Solar Lottery". The remaining essays include a discusion of time travel plots ("The Time-Travel Story and Related Matters of Science-Fiction Structuring"), relation between cosmology and science fiction, and critcism of the writings of Jorge Luis Borges. The essay entitled "Todorov's Fantastic Theory of Literature" was the most tedious to read. It debunked the theory proposed by Todorov (a Russian writer, I presume), and it read like chapter from a textbook on literary criticism. The final essay is a review of the book by the Strugarsky brothers "Roadside Picnic". I believe that "Roadside Picnic" was the basis for the film "Stalker" by the Russian film maker Andrei Tarkovsky (he also made "Solaris"). Before discussing the book Lem talks about the theme of alien invasions in science fiction books. I think that "Mircoworlds" is worth reading, however I expect that many science fiction fans will be disturbed and angered by it. As for my reaction, I loved the book, but then I am prejudiced. Lem is my favorite writer. About the reviewer Lem is the first science fiction author I read and he is still my favorite. I must agree with his point that most science fiction, although entertaining, is very shallow. I was born in Poland, and lived in the same city as Lem. I began reading his books at the age of 12. Although I read other science fiction (Asimov, Bradbury, Clement, LeGuin, Pournelle, Niven), Lem is the only author whose books I have read more than once. I think that my all time favorite is "Star Diaries" (which I first read in Polish at the age of 12), however some chapters of "Perfect Vacuum" come close. Lem's strength comes from the tackling questions which are usually ignored by everyone else. For example, in most books that describe contact with alien beings, communication between aliens and humans is easily established (e.g. "The Mote in God's Eye") - if discussed at all. This is due to excessive anthropomorphizing. This does not happen in "Solaris" or "The Invincible". In these books we cannot say for sure that the other being is intelligent. But that's how it is in real life. To presume that communication would be easy to establish between being evolved on different worlds is wrong. Witness the research on dolphins; we can't even say if they are intelligent or have a "language", but we evolved on the same planet. I know that many readers object to open-ended books, but any science fiction book which answers every question at the end is unrealistic. In real science an answer to a question, only leads to many other questions, there are very few final answers. Bye for now.... Richie Bielak r-bielak@cutc20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri 1 Feb 85 16:47:21-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: New books Future Fantasy in Palo Alto has received: del Rey: The Integral Trees Larry Niven 3.50 first paperback novel Limits Larry Niven 2.95 new collection of short stories Night's Daughter Marion Zimmer Bradley 2.95 new her version of the story of Mozart's opera, the Magic Flute The Bicentennial Man and Other Stories Issac Asimov 2.95 reprint coll. Nine Tomorrows Issac Asimov 2.95 reprint collection Night of Masks Andre Norton 2.25 reprint novel Pocket / Baen: A Day for Damnation David Gerrold first mass paper, sequel to A Matter for Men 3.95 The Flight of the Dragonfly Robert E. Forward first mass paper, his second novel 3.50 The Torch of Honor Roger MacBride Allen new novel 2.95 With Mercy Toward None Glen Cook new novel 2.95 October the First is Too Late Sir Fred Hoyle reprint novel 2.95 The Future of Flight Leik Myrabu / Dean Ing new collection of speculation about fight in air and space trade paperback 7.95 This is neither a offer to sell nor a soliciation to buy. Randy. If the books have finally reached California, they should be available at points east. ------------------------------ From: abnji!jca@topaz (james armstrong) Subject: Re: Whoites vs Trekies Date: 1 Feb 85 17:35:58 GMT >I went to the Dr. Who Convention in Philadelphia last year around >this time, and Tom Baker said that while Dr. Who has a fairly large >following in the U.S., there aren't really any "whoites" in England >- the show evidently isn't really all that big there. Tom Baker must have forgotten the 100,000 people who went to Longleats, in Wiltshire, for the 20th Anniversary celebration, Easter, 1983. Or the fact that it is consistently one of Britains most watched shows. (7,000,000 + per episode) The fans are of different types, perhaps this was what TB was refering to. I don't know, last year around this time I was watching Frontion on BBC-1! The biggest thing going for Dr. Who is that it is new. Every year 26 (usually) new episodes are released. There will be over 650 at the end of the present season. I used to watch Star Trek, but after 10 times, it does get a bit boring! (The movies have all been below my expectations) If you get a chance, watch Dr Who! At first, it may make no sense, you may be caught with a bad story ("Power of Kroll!"), but give it a chance and it will grow on you. Admittedly, it doesn't have the special effects that US Sci-Fi TV shows have, but it puts something else in instead: A plot. ------------------------------ From: ukc!lkt@topaz (L.K.Turner) Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies? Date: 1 Feb 85 10:52:05 GMT Reply-to: lkt@ukc.UUCP (L.K.Turner) milne@uci-icse writes: > I think you mean simply that "Dr. Who" is English. I think it's > actually made by one of ITV's (Independent TeleVision) divisions, > Lionheart. ITV is Britain's commercial network , though not > nearly so commercial as the North American ones. Wrong! Now lets get this straight once and for *all*. Dr Who is made by the BBC and has been for over twenty years , the first program being broadcast in 1963 ( *Live* ). I have never heard of an ITV division called Lionheart , but there used to be a childrens T.V series of that name on ITV. I hope this clears things up. == L.K.T UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!lkt ( L.K.Turner) ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!nairb@topaz (b. enke) Subject: Re: Whoites vs Trekies (also another WORST sci-fi movie) Date: 2 Feb 85 00:36:15 GMT > The biggest thing going for Dr. Who is that it is new. Every year > 26 (usually) new episodes are released. There will be over 650 at > the end of the present season. I used to watch Star Trek, but > after 10 times, it does get a bit boring! (The movies have all > been below my expectations) > > If you get a chance, watch Dr Who! At first, it may make no > sense, you may be caught with a bad story ("Power of Kroll!"), but > give it a chance and it will grow on you. Admittedly, it doesn't > have the special effects that US Sci-Fi TV shows have, but it puts > something else in instead: A plot. I've seen gobs of news concerning how BAD everyone thought *Power of Kroll* was, so I must be very rare. This episode was actually the first one I ever saw, and I'm still watching !! It was bad, though. However, about your plots statement, GET SERIOUS!! By the way, another vote for the "worst WORST WORST!!!" sci-fi movie of all time is ??? (I can't remember the name because it was so bad). The plot went something like this: China blows up the world, but first, one rocket escapes, travelling to Venus. The rocket contains four men and three women (typical Adam and Eve), and these people are faced with really corny decisions throughout the trip. The ending completely ruined this already bad movie, though. After watching it, I still don't know if they made it to Venus or got blown to bits by some all-powerful Venesian god! BLAH!! Adam and Eve), and ------------------------------ From: voder!kevin@topaz (The Last Bugfighter) Subject: Re: Maya (Catherine Schell) Date: 31 Jan 85 21:13:59 GMT > Anyone know whatever happened to Catherine Schell? The last time I saw her was in a Tom Baker Doctor Who episode a few years ago. Kevin Thompson {ucbvax,ihnp4!nsc}!voder!kevin "It's sort of a threat, you see. I've never been very good at them myself but I'm told they can be very effective." ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jcgowl@topaz (r. gowland) Subject: Re: Whoites vs Trekies Date: 1 Feb 85 16:09:37 GMT > From: Anne Rich > > I went to the Dr. Who Convention in Philadelphia last year > around this time, and Tom Baker said that while Dr. Who has a > fairly large following in the U.S., there aren't really any > "whoites" in England - the show evidently isn't really all that > big there. Part of the reason why the Dr. Who show doesn't seem to have such a big following in the UK is that it is made for and aimed at children in the age-group from 5 to 12. It is broadcast in prime childrens' viewing timeslots, usually 5pm Saturday with sometimes repeats at 6pm on a Monday. It is acknowledged by many that the programme is for kids, but loved by adults. I *like* (as opposed to *love*) it, but prefer Star Trek which comes at us in 50 minutes complete programmes. Dr. Who (as Richard Jeffreys probably pointed out) is shown over 4, 5 or 6 weeks at 25 minutes per episode. ihlpg!jcgowl Roger R. Gowland at Indian Hill (temporarily) ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 Feb 85 12:09:34-PST From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #37 Of course, Lalla Ward's Romana wore a hat: Her outfit was a direct, "feminine" copy of Tom Baker's. (Please, no flames about "feminine"--that's why it's in quotes.) However, she was NOT the only one ever to wear a hat. Sara Jane Smith wore a number of caps, hats, and such over the years, depending on what was fashionable for young women in London at that time. Leela wore hats in "The Talons of Weng-Chiang" and "The Horror of Fang Rock." And of course Tegan Jovanka wore one of those silly little caps that airlines (used to?) make cabin attendants wear. Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Feb 85 0037-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #41 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 4 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 41 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson & May (2 msgs) & Shiner & Story Request, Films - Worst SF Film, Television - The Prisoner (2 msgs) & American Playhouse (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: houxm!gregbo@topaz (Greg Skinner) Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever Date: 3 Feb 85 19:14:59 GMT > From: red@ukma.UUCP (Red Varth) > Yikes! Not fifteen! I couldn't make it through any more than the > first three. I rather liked the first three. The second three were a little longish. Much of TC and Linden's wanderings around the Stonedowns could have been omitted, as well as their sea voyage and all that nonsense with the Bhrathair. As I look at Donaldson's six books (volumes placed side by side) the second set is thicker than the first. Nevertheless, I'd like to see more, for example: * The origins of the Creator, the Despiser, etc. and how the Earth was created (a la Silmarillion). * The origins of men, their foes (the ur-viles), and Giants, and any other earthly beings that I have forgotten. * Berek's life, his creation of the Wards, etc. * Berek's descendants, particularly Kevin, and the story of his fall. * Particularly stories about Giants. > Covenant doesn't seem real to me. His actions don't make sense. > The reason I read as much of it as I did was to pick out more of > the background (which makes a good setup for a DND campaign). They should, after all, it is US that Covenant is supposed to represent -- our struggles, the contest of good vs. evil, self-doubt and self-loathing, etc. A lot of people seem to hate Covenant because he is so despicable (including himself) but that quality of the books I enjoyed the most because his struggle is the struggle of all men. Am I to understand that there are some TC books coming out soon? I waited until White Gold Wielder came out so I could get the second set and read them all at once ... I don't know if I can wait 3 more years for 3 more paperbacks. If you wanna ride, don't ride the white horse. Greg Skinner (gregbo) {allegra,cbosgd,ihnp4}!houxm!gregbo ------------------------------ From: ccice2!bwm@topaz (Brad Miller) Subject: Re: Julian May Date: 1 Feb 85 22:44:10 GMT I just finished reading "The Multi-Colored Land": REVIEW: Classification: Science-fiction (soft). Premise: Misfits from the near-future take a one-way trip to Pliocene Earth, where they hope to escape from the tribulations of civilization, but find themselves enslaved to an alien race. <> I think that the book is a good rapid read, and compares favorably with other good action-sf, though it may not be as classic as Zelazny's "Chronicles of Amber". Nonetheless, if you like Farmer and Zelazny's tales, I think you'd enjoy this book. I have 'The Golden Torc' on my nightstand, I'll be reading it next. Brad Miller ..[cbrma, ccivax, ccicpg, rayssd, ritcv, rlgvax,rochester] !ccice5!ccice2!bwm ------------------------------ From: boring!jack@topaz Subject: Re: Julian May Date: 3 Feb 85 16:09:46 GMT Reply-to: jack@boring.UUCP (Jack Jansen) I read the "Saga of the Exiles" series last summer,and the following things struck me: - There are a lot of references to the situation on earth before 2034. Did Julian May write a predecessor to this series? If he did, how good is it? - There are a lot of things that do not seem to make sense in the context of the story. For instance the story about the rama with the torc, or the fact that it is explicitly stated a lot of times that Felice isn't dead. Would there be more books coming up? (By the way, I have 4 books, The Many-couloured Land, The Golden Torc, The Non-born King, and The Adversary, and the story seems complete). Any responses will be welcomed, and I'll summarize, of course. Jack Jansen, {decvax|philabs|seismo}!mcvax!jack Notice new, improved, faster address ^^^^^ ------------------------------ From: ahuta!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: FRONTERA by Lewis Shiner Date: 1 Feb 85 18:07:12 GMT FRONTERA by Lewis Shiner Baen Books, 1984, $2.95. A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This is a book has a lot of promise, but it just doesn't deliver. The premise is good: the first permanent Mars settlement --Frontera-- was cut off from Earth when all the governments and social order in general fell apart back on Earth. Now, several years later, the corporations have picked up the pieces and send a "rescue mission" to Frontera. The scenario for the transition from government to corporation rule on Earth does not bear close inspection, particularly in the USSR, but little time is spent on Earth, so this could be glossed over. And Shiner does have a good writing style, capable of holding your interest with realistic descriptions of life in the Martian colony. But unlike Occam, he multiplies entities (in this case, premises) needlessly. The children born to the colonists on Mars are mutants who have set up their own laboratory in a cave, where they may or may not have developed faster-than-light travel/matter transmission. None of the main characters is what could be described as normal, and this soon starts to look like "funny-hat-ism," where everyone is identified by the funny hat they wear. In many ways it reminded me of Frederik Pohl's STARBURST ("The Gold at Starbow's End"), with its gratuitous (in my opinion) mysticism. I didn't like STARBURST either. It's a pity. If Shiner had just stuck to the idea of the stranded Martian colony and how they survived, without all this FTL mumbo-jumbo, he could have had a great story. Evelyn C. Leeper ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ecl ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Identify This One, Please? Date: 1 Feb 85 22:07:08 GMT I suspect this request is a tuffy. Can anyone identify the story by title and author (and publication) from the following: It was written and published prior to 1949 for I had a copy in 1948 or late 1947. It was probably a novelette or long short story. It involved a mining operation the sun. Ships were able to penetrate the sun by a field which somehow polarized the molecules (atoms?) of both ship and sun allowing those of the ship to "slip" between those of the sun. That's all I remember except that the story involved one trip into the sun and back out. Something unusual happened there,but I haven't the foggiest idea what anymore. It was most likely something from Planet Stories, or TWS, or SS (needless to say, not the Big A). I have a special reason to recall this story so I would much appreciate any help. Thanks in advance! I know you can do it! "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie (well, not exactly) Date: 2 Feb 85 08:37:31 GMT >>Ever wonder how they got that enormous elevator shaft into that >>small ship? [in Dark Star] > > Better yet, look closely at the size of the bombs vs. the size of > the ship, and try to figure out where they stored 20 of those > things. Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The Transatlantic Tunnel. (Incidentally, all prints of this were believed lost. Also incidentally, it's a British remake of a 1933 German movie.) For a 1930's sf movie, it wasn't that bad -- but there were some nice howlers. Like... you're digging a tunnel, depicted as about 30-40 feet in diameter, from London to New York. This is somewhat over 3000 miles. Converting to metric, say 10 m diam and 5000 km length. The volume of the tunnel is therefore PI*5*5*5000000 m^3, which is 400000000 m^3. If the rock has only 2.5 times the density of water, that's ONE BILLION metric TONS to be lifted to sea level and disposed of... this was simply ignored! And the 1500-mile trip from the tunnel ends to the working face was depicted as taking a time on the order of minutes, maybe an hour, in vehicles shown moving at no more than 50 mph... Mark Brader ------------------------------ From: hao!ward@topaz (Mike Ward) Subject: What is "The Prisoner"? Date: 30 Jan 85 20:58:38 GMT This is posted for Dave Kliman (Drexel!dave)... What is "the prisoner"? Could someone out there please explain to me what that series is all about? Michael Ward, NCAR/SCD UUCP: {hplabs,nbires,brl-bmd,seismo,menlo70,stcvax}!hao!ward ARPA: hplabs!hao!ward@Berkeley BELL: 303-497-1252 USPS: POB 3000, Boulder, CO 80307 ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"? Date: 1 Feb 85 18:52:23 GMT ward@hao.UUCP (Mike Ward) writes: >This is posted for Dave Kliman (Drexel!dave)... > >What is "the prisoner"? Could someone out there please explain >to me what that series is all about? The prisoner is a 1967 TV series starring Patrick McGoohan. It lasted 17 espisodes, and relates the story of a british secret agent that resigns for unknown reasons. He is gassed in his apartment, and wakes up in the Village. Everyone in the Village is either a rebel like himself or a plant of the people who run it-- they could either be his side, trying to find out why he resigned, or their side, trying to find out what he knows. They are trying to break him, he is trying to escape. It can be interpreted in a very Kafkaesque mode, and also in terms of an Orwellian society if you want-- nobody in the Village has a name, (McGoohan is #6, and the Village is overseen by #2). It is very surrealistic, very thought provoking, and very well done. You need to really pay attention to it or it will look like a rather random piece of film, but it all ties together quite well. chuq From the ministry of silly talks: Chuq Von Rospach {allegra,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA Life, the Universe, and lots of other stuff is a trademark of AT&T Bell Labs ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: American Playhouse (PBS) - "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" Date: 1 Feb 85 00:02:59 GMT William Daul writes: > ... The American Playhouse (PBS) is showing a sci-fi play this > week. It is called Overdrawn At The Memory Bank. I thought I had > once heard it was good. Most material that the American Playhouse > performs is excellent (a personal value judgement on my part). I expect this is the same TV-movie I saw on the CBC last year. It was a Canadian production. I'd read the short story (same title, can't remember the author or where I saw it) a year or two before that -- long enough to forget some detail. While I enjoyed the short story, I think the TV adapters must have tampered with the plot. The tycoon character had a large and illogical part, which I don't remember from the story; he must have been added or altered. And this made the thing rather nonsensical. However, if this major flaw is overlooked, it wasn't bad. Mark Brader, Toronto, Canada ------------------------------ From: utcs!wjr@topaz (William Rucklidge) Subject: Re: American Playhouse (PBS) Date: 31 Jan 85 18:32:12 GMT > From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD > > > The general announcement here is that The American Playhouse (PBS) > is showing a sci-fi play this week. It is called Overdrawn At The > Memory Bank. I thought I had once heard it was good. Most > material that the American Playhouse performs is excellent (a > personal value judgement on my part). > > The specific message is for SF Bay Area folks. It will be shown > on KTEH channel 54 on tuesday, february 5th at 9:00 pm. I believe > there is some other computer-related show that follows > it...something on privacy(?) I saw this show a few months back when it was aired by TV Ontario. It was filmed in Toronto, I believe. However, the plot was hacked, mangled and slaughtered by whoever adapted the original story (by John Varley). They added a villain, a conspiracy and a romantic interest, none of which the story needed. Also, when the hero is trapped inside the computer, he falls into a recreation of ... Rick's Cafe Americain. That's right, the one from Casablanca, complete with Bogart and Lorre clones. This was the touch that soured the whole thing for me. I don't know about the rest of the American Playhouse productions, but this one is barely worth watching. William Rucklidge University of Toronto Computing Services {decvax,ihnp4,utcsrgv,{allegra,linus}!utzoo}!utcs!wjr GISO - Garbage In, Serendipity Out. This message brought to you with the aid of the Poslfit Committee. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Feb 1985 03:23:04 PST Subject: Overdrawn at the Memory Bank From: John Platt "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" is apparently going to be shown on American Playhouse on PBS some time during the week of Feb. 4. (check local listings, etc.)... The promos make one uneasy: they say the plot revolves around someone who "finds the secret code for unlocking movies." They show someone sitting next to a pseudo-Bogart in Rick's cafe. It doesn't sound like they took too much from the Varley short story... In fact, it sounds like they only took the title, and not much else. Well, we'll see.... john (platt@cit-20) Everyone puts obnoxious things at the bottom of their messages, except me! ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: American Playhouse (PBS); also, John Varley Date: 2 Feb 85 08:15:09 GMT Re "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" -- is this based on the John Varley story of the same name? If so, it will be interesting to see what they make of it. (On your specific message: I don't get 54. Do you know if 9 or 32 will be showing it?) Varley is fast becoming one of my favorite SF authors. At first, although I would occasionally stumble across one of his shorter works and say to myself, "hmmm, that's nice...", I somehow never got motivated enough to go out and track down more stuff. Then, there came a time when I didn't have anything really pressing, but there was this copy of \\Titan// lying around. By the time I finished it, symptoms of addiction were beginning to manifest themselves; by now, I believe I'm hooked for good. I recently got a copy of \\Demon//. In my opinion, this series has maintained its high quality throughout, and \\Demon// may even be the best of the lot. I have seen very little discussion of either \\Demon// or Varley in sf-lovers - is anybody else out there reading him? I am somewhat surprised that his name didn't crop up in the "good female characters" discussion which took place recently (or maybe it did - I missed a fair chunk of that one); many of his important characters are female. It seems to me that there must be a sequel in store here. Although there is not an overwhelming tangle of loose ends that would demand another book to tie everything up (the Riverworld phenomenon), there is too much going on in this universe for me to be content with things as they are at the end of \\Demon//. The principal characters are by no means played out, either. Does anybody else concur with this opinion? Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ...Killjoy went that-a-way---> ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Feb 85 1039-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #42 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 42 Today's Topics: Books - Forward & Niven, Films - Worst SF Movie (3 msgs), Television - Otherworld & Quark (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Space Burial (3 msgs) & Science Fiction Book Club (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz Subject: Re: Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly) Date: 31 Jan 85 05:38:22 GMT Yes, the new Forward book TFotD is an expanded version of the serial that appeared in Analog. At a rough guess, 50% of the material in the book is new: covering preparations for the flight, the flight, and the Gargantua flybys (sorta useless material, that). An appendix giving technical details of the flight, including illos. If you liked (or haven't read & like Forward and/or Clement) the serial, the paperback is probably worth your $'s. The tradeback probably isn't. Now, I want to by a Christmas Bush for my Vaxen. Anybody selling 'em? Subject: "Limits" by Larry Niven LIMITS is well worth reading. It contains a short story in his "magic goes away" series, several Draco tavern stories, and three collaberations. (with Jerry Pournelle, Dian Girard, and Steve Barnes) "Another modest proposal" (his essay in this collection) is the only part that does not fall in the good to excellent range. This collecton is a mixed bag (it even contains a berserker story... writen with Saberhagen's permission) and a good catch. "Limits" by Larry Niven (c) 1985 Del Rey 0-345-32142-1 February, 1985 $2.95 Bob Larson I.B.M. U.B.M. We all B.M. For I.B.M. (Quick: who is the fictonal author of the above poem?) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 85 17:37:47 EST From: JOn Subject: Rocky (Horrible) >>> . Rocky Horror Picture Show - the Queen of bad SF > >Now wait just a minute here Mark. Rocky is high camp - outrageous >on purpose. Rocky shouldn't be on a list of bad SF movies for many >of the same reasons that Dark Star is exempt. (I know, you just >included it on the list so that you could call it the "Queen of bad >SF", right?) Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rocky Horror open to terrible reviews and close after a few weeks in the theatres? I seem to remember that the 'Rocky' craze was enabled after the movie 'Fame' brought it to our attention. Rocky Horror was supposed to be a serious movie, and it failed in that way. >If you've only seen Rocky Horror once, go again. The movie grows >on you after a while. After about the tenth viewing, when you can >sing all the songs and recite all the lines as well as you can for >every Star Trek episode, you may find that you enjoy it. Then >again, you may no longer be sane any more. I'm sorry, but I don't like to become a 'conformist'. After a while, I'd get tired of saying "Where's your $%&{Saturn symbol}!# neck!" over and over again. The same holds true with ST. I turn it on, and if it's one I instantly remember, I switch over to local PBS to see The Good Neighbors, Butterflies, etc. Don't get me wrong, I like making fun of poorly made films, but not more than once or twice. I'd rather not patronize shoddy productions. >To really be considered one of the "worst" movies of all time, I >think that a movie has to be a) a ridiculously pretentious attempt >at serious movie making, b) a low budget and poorly thought out >attempt to jump on and exploit the "SF market" bandwagon, or c) a >blatant insult to the intelligence of the audience. This is true, but I do not agree with the requirement about low budgets. Many films start out with Megabucks, and fail on the other counts. Recent unfavorites include Superduperman III, and Trash of the Titans. Need I say more? JOn "But what about our relationship?" "%$# that!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon 4 Feb 85 00:46:21-EST From: geoffrey dov cooper Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #37 i was only being semi-facetious about the star wars movies. yes they did gross an amazing amount of money, but, they are not and never have been good science fiction. they lack adequate characterization, an adult plot, realism in their special effects, etc. as someone previously pointed out they are simply a remake of all the old westerns that we watched as kids, with the addition of old air battle footage ala n wwii movies. i forget the originator of the quote but "you can't go broke underestimating the taste of the american public." star wars is and was a prime example of shooting for the lowest common denominator. money made is not an adequate indicator of quality it just goes to show that action/adventure never goes out of style. if money made was the way to choose quality then harold robbins and sidney sheldon are the greatest writers since the edge of creation (excepting moses of course). shades@mit-oz ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Feb 1985 07:39:03-PST From: wasser_1%viking.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John A. Wasser) Subject: Worst SF Movie of All Time My nominee for "Worst SF Movie" is: Message From Outer Space This film arrived in Rochester, NY around 1977 or 1978. It was a cheap oriental rip-off of Star Wars. There was a "fly through a tunnel" scene to take the place of the "trench" scene. One of the musical themes was IDENTICAL in the first 10 notes to Princess Leia's theme from Star Wars. There was also a scene in which the pilots are briefed on how to fly the trenches and attack the core reactor. This showed a simulation picture of the attack, again a copy of the "Star Wars" briefing scene. The "Message" in the title consisted of three magic nuts that were thrown through space. These nuts looked exactly like walnuts except they were painted red and had lightbulbs inside. The largest space-ship in the show looked like a multi-masted wooden sailing ship (complete with sails). The ship was controlled by LARGE metal levers (probably moving the motors by hand?). For some reason, the names mentioned in the TV ad and prominently displayed on the poster were American. All of the other names on the poster were oriental. The only name I recognized was Vic Morrow (sp?) who had a rather small part that I don't remember clearly. When some friends and I saw this film, we were literally stunned by the stupidity of the plot, acting, effects etc. When we got out of the film... we thought back on the absurdity of it all and started to giggle. We continued to giggle, and remind each other of particularly ludicrous parts, for almost an hour. It is for this reason that I wish to nominate this absolute abomination of a film for "Worst SF Movie of All Time" -John A. Wasser P.S. My thanks to Bob Peterson (PETERSON%VAXWRK.DEC@decwrl.ARPA) who saw this turkey with me and remembered the pilot briefing scene. He adds: "I hope no one else had to see it unless to get an outraged tickle." Work address: ARPAnet:WASSER%VIKING.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Usenet: {allegra,Shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-viking!wasser USPS: Digital Equipment Corp. Mail stop: LJO2/E4 30 Porter Rd Littleton, MA 01460 ------------------------------ From: hpfcla!ajs@topaz (ajs) Subject: New CBS show: Other World Date: 27 Jan 85 04:02:00 GMT Just caught the pilot show of "Other World" on CBS. Surprisingly entertaining and well-crafted. Nothing significantly new about the plot, but it still promises to be a varied and enjoyable show. Did anyone notice the jet contrail in the desert sky in the very last scene? Right over the "Forbidden Zone", too. I wonder how (or if) they'll explain that one as the show progresses... Alan "reality, fantasy, repeat" Silverstein ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 1 Feb 1985 21:22:25-PST From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks 223-9408) Subject: QUARK I believe that QUARK was conceived by Richard Benjamin and Avery Schreiber. Each weekly episode was written by a different writer, a la Star Trek. One such was a high school classmate of mine, William A. MacCarty III. It was a funny series. ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Randy Buckland) Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash" Date: 1 Feb 85 15:05:11 GMT > If I remember correctly, Quark was about the adventures of > a galactic garbage ship and its crew. Richard Benjamin played the > captain, and two blonde, buxom, appropriately-clad twins (REAL > twins) played the crew; there was also a very stereotypical robot. > The first episode involved Benjamin coming into possession of "THE > SOURCE" and was not bad; I can't recall any other episodes. > (Quark was the captain's name.) You forgot Ficus!!!!!! That wonderful non-emotional being who evolved from a plant. Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark Date: 2 Feb 85 06:42:31 GMT Ah, yes - Quark. One of the original postings was titled something like "spoof or trash", well I'm afraid mostly trash (in more ways than one.) The basic premise here was that Quark was the commander of an interstellar garbage truck (ship), although I don't remember his ever making an actual pickup. He worked out of a chaotic space station called PERMA 1, under the supervision of Conrad Janis (of Mork & Mindy fame). The whole operation was overseen by a (disembodied?) head called The Head. Quark's crew consisted of two beautiful clones, a mostly emotionless humanoid vegatable first officer and a hermaphrodite (which meant not what you would expect, but that he/she would spend half the time acting super macho and half the time acting stereotypically gay). In some of the early episodes, the science officer was a one-eyed old man (he put out the other eye by falling asleep at the microscope). Additionally, there was some sort of uncontrolable alien pet on board. Sound interesting? Well, maybe. However, every episode I saw (and they seemed to be very irregularly scheduled) was horrible except for one. When I say horrible, I mean in a technical sense as well as the writing, acting and directing. The laugh track was the worse I can remember on any show (and if you remember the laugh track of a show at all, that's a bad sign). What was the one good episode? It was a one hour special Star Wars parody. Everyone else was unavaiable so The Head had to send Quark to save the federation (or whatever it was). With Quark and his crew, the head also sent an invisible, omnipresent and somewhat klutzy entity called THE SOURCE. The bad guys were headquartered in a space station that looked exactly like Darth Vader's mask. I don't know how they did it, but somehow the jokes in this one were actually funny and the acting competent. I remember it with great fondness, even though the laugh track did get out of hand once (when the 2 bettys were denying that they knew each other). I was hoping that maybe everyone involved had learned something, but when I tuned in next episode --- same old awful trash. SOURCE : Quick quark, follow me. Quark : Right... Wait a minute, your're everywhere. Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe) ("Deep space is my dwelling place, the stars my destination") ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!ndiamond@topaz (Norman Diamond) Subject: Re: Space Burial Date: 30 Jan 85 17:54:34 GMT > It's not enough that humans have to waste on cemeteries the land > that's scarce enough in some areas to fight wars over (which is > one good way to fill them). After all the amount of land in the > world is essentially constant and the number of dead people in the > world is monotonically increasing. Phil (I want to be cremated > when I die) Karn Until "recently" (historically speaking), it was not uncommon for the same cemetery plots to be re-used, after intervals of around 10 or 50 years or so. This practice changed when squeamish people migrated to a continent that had an infinite supply of land. (They also obtain infinite supplies of fresh water, food, trees for paper, etc., from this land.) -- Norman Diamond UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdaisy!ndiamond CSNET: ndiamond%watdaisy@waterloo.csnet ARPA: ndiamond%watdaisy%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa "Opinions are those of the keyboard, and do not reflect on me or higher-ups." ------------------------------ From: petrus!karn@topaz Subject: Re: Space Burial Date: 30 Jan 85 03:32:30 GMT What a stupid idea. It's not enough that humans have to waste on cemeteries the land that's scarce enough in some areas to fight wars over (which is one good way to fill them). After all the amount of land in the world is essentially constant and the number of dead people in the world is monotonically increasing. Now we have to waste one of mankinds's most expensive and potentially valuable technological systems we have on it as well. Ah, progress and free enterprise. What else would you expect from a country that gave you both Ronald Reagan and William Proxmire? Phil (I want to be cremated when I die) Karn ------------------------------ Date: 3 Feb 85 16:55:00 EST From: JOn Subject: Re: Space Burial Space Burial sounds interesting enough to persue further. I do remember reading about this somewhere other than the digest. It's an interesting concept, and the costs don't seem to be 'out of this world' (sorry). But what about funerals at the other end of the shuttle flights? I had the idea about being cremated by the shuttle's engines on takeoff... JOn ------------------------------ Date: Sun 3 Feb 85 13:00:32-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Science Fiction Book Club Here is a response from a satisfied customer. I joined the SFBC about 18 months ago, and since then have bought not quite one book per month. The books are of usual "club edition" quality - hard bound, fairly inexpensive, pages sometimes irregular &c. However, the average cost, including shipping &c, was about $6 per book, which I consider a reasonable price for something that is definitely more durable and more pleasant than a pb. The printing has always been clear and legible. If you just get the "5 books for $1" or whatever, and then take only the minimum required number of books, you have a tremendous bargain. I could have filled my quota just with Helliconia Summer The Crucible of Time Code of the Lifemaker Moreta Heechee Rendezvous to name just five really good books from SFBC. As you've gathered, I like the old-fashioned "hard" science fiction. But the catalogue also contains a good deal of sword & sorcery, fantasy, valuable reprints, and much else. In my opinion, the SFBC is well worth joining. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Feb 1985 10:29:39-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB I've been in the book club twice now. Overall my reaction to their selection is an old fashioned "raspberry"! They have a few oldies but goodies, alot of current (last two or three years), and VERY few new ones. Also, the new ones are never available till after they make it to the bookstores. In other words, go for the freebies when you sign-up, but get out ASAP. What we need is good old fashioned competition in the sci-fi bookclub market!! Gaylene ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Feb 85 1457-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #43 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 43 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & May (2 msgs), Films - Worst SF Movie (5 msgs) & The Tunnel (2 msgs) & Buck Rogers & Buckaroo Banzai & Dune (2 msgs), Television - Quark (2 msgs) & Otherworld ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: idmi-cc!root@topaz (Admin) Subject: ELLISON / DEATHBIRD / QUESTION (help) Date: 31 Jan 85 19:01:13 GMT One of my all time favorite science fiction works was the DEATHBIRD by Harlan "the little monster" Ellison. The story left me speechless for days. (People thought I'd caught some disease, my parents called a shrink, the dog hid all its toys...) My only problem with it was the 'dedication' at the end, (for those of you who haven't read it I won't ?spoil? it for you by printing it here) I can't figure it out. Nothing in that story happened without a reason! Having little knowledge of the person referred to, and little more of his works, I have never been able to understand the significance of the last line... the 'dedication'. Anyone out there know what I'm talking about and have an answer? Please mail it to me ASAP!!!! Much thanks in advance. Andrew R. Scholnick Information Design and Management Inc., Alexandria, Va. ...seismo!rlgvax!idmi-cc!andrew ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 85 13:02:44 PST (Tuesday) From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Brad Miller's review: Julian May > I just finished reading "The Multi-Colored Land": It's "The Many-Colored Land" --Josh "Why's there a watermelon there?" "I'll tell you later." ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 85 13:34:05 PST (Tuesday) From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Jack Jansen Re: Julian May Oops, next time I'll read ALL the digest before I reply... First off, Julian May is a SHE not a HE. Secondly, I believe she is now working on . These books will tell of the Milieu before (? - I hate time travel stories) , in the days of the Metaspychic Rebellion (I suppose). The titles of the Trilogy will be "Jack the Bodiless", "Diamond Mask" and "Magnificat". I hope there will also be tales of adventures in the Tanu galaxy as well. It seems that Ms. May is just getting started, and I see no reason for the quality of her writing to do anything but improve. ***** SPOILER WARNING ***** > - There are a lot of things that do not seem to make sense in the > context of the story. For instance the story about the rama with > the torc, or the fact that it is explicitly stated a lot of times > that Felice isn't dead. The bit about the rama that finds the golden torc is to explain why there is no torc on the corpse of Lugonn the Shining One. (The original, first-comer hero) This is important, as if the rama had not found and taken Lugonn's torc, Felice would have found it on the expedition to the Ship's Grave, and would have been operant far sooner. The reason it is stated a lot of times that Felice isn't dead is that she isn't. She doesn't die in "The Golden Torc" when she falls from Elizabeth's balloon; she turns into a raven and flies away. She doesn't die in "The Non-born King" in her battle with Aiken and Marc, either. It is explained in the begining of "The Adversary" that she fused with Culluket the Interregator, her beloved, and formed some kind of ruby "soul gem" or something. Elizabeth hides this in her room-without-doors and leaves Felice/Culluket buried in it at the scene of the battle. No one but Elizabeth can enter the room-without-doors, but Felice is free to leave if she ever escapes her ruby form. --Josh "It may be garbage, but it's garbage that smells OK." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 85 08:41 EST From: schneider.WBST@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Worst SF Movie Funny that I haven't seen more mention of "Green Slime" as the worst SF film around. This is a definite six-pack movie. And even then only the sound track is interesting. Eric ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible) Date: 5 Feb 85 04:08:26 GMT >>> . Rocky Horror Picture Show - the Queen of bad SF >> >>Now wait just a minute here Mark. Rocky is high camp - outrageous >>on purpose. Rocky shouldn't be on a list of bad SF movies for >>many of the same reasons that Dark Star is exempt. (I know, you >>just included it on the list so that you could call it the "Queen >>of bad SF", right?) > > Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rocky Horror open to > terrible reviews and close after a few weeks in the theatres? I > seem to remember that the 'Rocky' craze was enabled after the > movie 'Fame' brought it to our attention. Rocky Horror was > supposed to be a serious movie, and it failed in that way. Now wait just a minute here! Rocky Horror Picture Show was trashed by the critics, if that is really of any signifigance. But it was indeed a cult classic long before "Fame" rode to fame on it's coat-tails! John L. Templer University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley "and they called it, yuppy love." ------------------------------ From: ukma!sean@topaz (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible) Date: 5 Feb 85 05:42:50 GMT >To really be considered one of the "worst" movies of all time, I >think that a movie has to be a) a ridiculously pretentious attempt >at serious movie making, b) a low budget and poorly thought out >attempt to jump on and exploit the "SF market" bandwagon, or c) a >blatant insult to the intelligence of the audience. Does this mean that an obvious parody cannot be bad? Sean ------------------------------ Date: Wed 6 Feb 85 12:36:16-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: Rocky Horror I don't think it counts in the "worst ever movies" marathon. Richard O'Brien intended from the first to make a grade-B movie in the grand old tradition (or so he said). If that's a serious bad movie, then so is "Spinal Tap". ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: Oh boy, a DIFFERENT bad SF movie! Date: 31 Jan 85 07:07:14 GMT Come on, you guys. A lot of you are voting for Plan Nine from Outer Space when you watched it SPECIFICALLY because it is well known as a bad movie. What about those movies you watched WITHOUT knowing what you were getting into? I have two candidates: THE SWARM (good 'ol Irwin Allen's version of the killer bees). This is especially putrid, since some some (nominally) hi-grade actors were in it, like, Henry Fonda, Richard Chamberlain, and Richard Widmark. My favorite part is where Michael Caine and another actor are facing each other, talking, and the camera goes into orbit around them...does a complete 360, keeping them on the center of the screen as the background whizzes by. You can tell that Caine and the other guy are desperately trying not to glance at the camera. No need to describe anything else, as THE SWARM is listed in the "Golden Turkey Awards." I am generally uncritical when I go to movies, just planning on killing a little time. But this movie does it by the nanosecond... The second movie isn't SF, but did feature the star of one of the best SF movies (A Clockwork Orange), Malcom McDowell. This stinker was called, "The Passage," an abysmal WWII escape film, also starring Anthony Quinn and Patricia Neal. McDowell essentially plays Alex Lefarge in a Gestapo uniform. I only mention this movie, as it is the only film the theater tried to talk me out of seeing... When I asked for tickets, the manager came over and said, "I have to warn you, this movie is very bloody." I said that was OK, but he said again, "It is REALLY bloody and gross." We saw it anyway. What was the bloody part? See net.cooking for details... Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) "Captain Dallas, it's time to feed the alien..." ------------------------------ From: ho95b!ran@topaz (RANeinast) Subject: The Tunnel Date: 4 Feb 85 18:37:52 GMT >Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The >Transatlantic Tunnel. (It's a British remake of a 1933 German >movie. All prints of it were believed lost.) For a 1930's sf >movie, it wasn't that bad -- but there were some nice howlers. > >Like... you're digging a tunnel, depicted as about 30-40 feet in >diameter, from London to New York. > >Even if the rock has only 2.5 times the density of water, that's >ONE BILLION metric TONS of spoil (some miles below sea level, too) >that you have to dispose of... this was simply ignored! > Mark Brader And just think of their surprise when they tunnel through the Mid-Atlantic Ridge! Ever tried tunneling through an *active* volcano? ". . . and shun the frumious Bandersnatch." Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95c!ran) AT&T-Bell Labs ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!faigin@topaz Subject: The Tunnel Date: 4 Feb 85 04:47:14 GMT msb@lsuc.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: >Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The >Transatlantic Tunnel. > >Like... you're digging a tunnel, depicted as about 30-40 feet in >diameter, from London to New York. Does anyone know if this movie is related in any way, shape, or form to the Harry Harrison book, "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!" Daniel P. Faigin, University of California at Los Angeles UUCP: {cepu|ihnp4|trwspp|ucbvax}!ucla-cs!faigin ARPA: faigin@UCLA-CS.ARPA USPS (Home): 11743 Darlington Avenue #9/Los Angeles CA 90049 AT&T (Home): (213) 826-3357 ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz Subject: "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" (not either of the ones you Subject: think) Date: 3 Feb 85 09:40:07 GMT I just saw a real rarity: a short based on "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century". This isn't the Buster Crabbe version, nor the TV series. It was made prior to both, in 1935. The creator of the cartoon strip decided that it would make a great film. Unable to sell it to a studio, he scraped together a little money, and made a ten minute short version to shop around the studios. Nothing ever came of it, and the short was never shown to the public. Now, years later, the UCLA Film Archives turned it up, transferred it from nitrate to safety film, and gave it a public screening. Unfortunately, it's little more than a curiosity. No one involved had the slightest idea about how to make a movie. Of some historic interest are the special effects, which contain what is doubtless the earliest attempt to film a full scale space battle, involving several dozen space ships. The effects are primitive in the extreme, but at least they tried. Script, acting, and directing are comically terrible, but not funny enough to justify the effort. This short may turn up at SF conventions in the future, as a second print was purchased from UCLA by a small distribution company. If anyone is interested, I can probably find out who to contact to book it. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz (Gary Traveis) Subject: BANZAI INSTITUTE MESSAGE Date: 5 Feb 85 05:24:57 GMT Dianne Wickes (20th C Fox) and Denise Tathwell (Banzai Institute) will be gathering together L.A. area Buckaroo Banzai fans at the NUART Theatre * on Friday Feb. 8th for a special MIDNIGHT showing of Buckaroo Banzai! This showing will be kicking off a 6 week run of midnight showings leading up to the release of Buckaroo Banzai on home video! Dianne and Denise will be the ones in the TEAM BANZAI jackets. If you are out of the area but want to keep in touch with the Banzai Institute, drop a line (with a SASE) to - Banzai Institute c/o 20th Century Fox PO Box 900 Beverly Hills, CA 90213 They want to hear from Y O U ! Help TEAM BANZAI keep the world safe from evil and boredom! * The NUART is located at 11272 Santa Monica Blvd. ------------------------------ From: leadsv!chris@topaz (Christopher Salander) Subject: Two Dunes Date: 29 Jan 85 02:00:23 GMT For those of you who were appalled at the editing of the film Dune, and the way some characters role's were butchered - THERE IS HOPE. I have heard that there is a *European* version of Dune. Supposedly, Europeans are thought to be willing to sit still longer than Americans, so they often get longer versions of movies. Various scenes have been restored or filled out, including: 1) The banquet scene. 2) Duncan Idaho's activities on Arrakis. 3) More of Shadout Mape's activities. 4) The complete ending, including the various agreements. Now, we must lobby the movie studio and the appropriate people to make sure that the European version of the film is what gets put onto Video Tape for sale, and/or what gets sold to Cable TV. Then we might have a decent movie to watch. I have always thought of Duncan Idaho as the hero of Dune (the book), so this could put the movie on the right track. ------------------------------ From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz Subject: Doon (the parody) vs. Dune (the movie) Date: 1 Feb 85 06:36:05 GMT Just a short note to tell everybody that National Lampoon's "Doon" is worth your time and money. Especially if you saw the movie. The parody has more from Dune than the movie does. Speaking of "does anyone remember" - I can't seem to find anyone > that remembers a tv "sitcom" called Quark. Does anyone out there > remember who wrote it? I thought it was a great comedy spoof, but > the public just wasn't ready for it! Sure, I remember it. It was great. I can't decide if I liked the Bettys or Ficus better. They both had interesting points (If you know what I mean). Randy Buckland Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ Date: Mon 4 Feb 85 02:52:49-EST From: geoffrey dov cooper Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #38 to be more precise, though this doesn't answer the original question, quark was the captain of an intergalatic garbage scow, not truck. ask anybody along a body of water and they will, hopefully, tell you that that is the correct term for a sailing garbage disposal unit. shades@mit-oz ------------------------------ Date: 4 Feb 85 08:25 EST Subject: Someone liked "Otherworld" From: Gocek.henr@XEROX.ARPA Near the beginning of the first episode of "Otherworld", when the family finds the road and the little vehicle comes cruising along, some family members comment that they can't figure out how the car works. The father says authoritatively, "It obviously makes use of an electromagnetic drive system buried beneath the road surface." (That's not an exact quote, but it's close.) I let that asinine script line go, but the totally unlabeled interior of the vehicle combined with a key that I would not want to try to put into MY pocket were too much. You'd think a high tech society like that could come up with better user interfaces. I switched to "Trivial Pursuit". And the royal wedding of Charles and Diana on "V" was too much. I wish Elizardbeth would take over the planet and get it over with. Gary Gocek.Henr@Xerox.ARPA (preferably) or {seismo, allegra}!rochester!ritcv!ritvp!gwg4776 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Feb 85 1529-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #44 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 44 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Story Request Answered & New Releases (2 msgs), Films - The Dungeonmaster & Worst SF Movies, Television - The Prisoner (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: Integral Trees Date: 5 Feb 85 08:36:31 GMT >Unfortunately, I must comment about Integral_ Trees that while I >DID enjoy it a good deal, it was not up to the usual Niven story. >The characters were not solving a puzzle, or dealing with any >difficulty. Rather, they were tossed about on the winds of fate, >and given almost no control of their destiny. The story was mainly >an exploration of the Smoke Ring, showing the reading how diverse >and fascinating this place is. > >So, while I highly recommend it (as I said, it is great fun...it >truly is a strange new world the reader gets to see), I do not feel >that it is up to the standards set by other works from Niven. I >hope that the sequel presents a more interesting 'story', now that >the world has been at least partially explored. I recently got \\The Integral Trees// myself. I have the same complaint: the environment is very interesting, but it all seems quite unmotivated. Although careful attention was given to the physical evolution of humans, the aspects of social evolution were barely considered. As a result, the book seems to me to be the equivalent of a travelogue with impressive cinematography applied to marvelous scenery -- but not a person in sight. This reinforces an oft-stated assertion of critics that the best stories are stories about people. This is precisely where \\The Integral Trees// fails: the environment overshadows the people who live in it. >Query: What is this new collection of short stories from Niven? >Are these new stories? > -Andy Gideon You must be talking about \\Limits//. Mine arrived yesterday. A perusal of the table of contents reveals three stories and a short-short by Niven alone, three collaborations (one each with Jerry Pournelle, Dian Girard, and Steve Barnes), plus five more tales from the Draco Tavern. This last group includes the title story. According to the introduction, only the Draco stories appear to be completely new. The other stories have appeared in such places as \\Omni//, \\Amazing//, and various story collections. In the latter group are two stories set in the Warlock universe, which are collected in \\More Magic//. This would appear to be a collection of previously uncollected Warlock stories, but I haven't seen it yet. Niven says the stories "have appeared", but adds that the book is "three years overdue". The collection is definitely worth getting. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ...Killjoy went that-a-way---> ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ From: trsvax!gm@topaz Subject: Integral Trees query Date: 4 Feb 85 00:56:00 GMT A friend of mine and I have just finished reading Niven's "Integral Trees" and we have a couple of questions. First, why wasn't the whole length of the tree covered with foilage instead of just the two tufts at the ends? Does it have anything to do with the winds? And also, if the trees radiated out away from the star like spokes, why was the gravity at the tufts the same and stronger than that at the middle of the tree. I know there was some discussion of this book when it came out in hardback, so if I am covering old ground I am sorry. at the Tandy tuft... George Moore ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Feb 85 11:15 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Identify This One, Please? > Ships were able to penetrate the sun by a field which somehow >polarized the molecules (atoms?) of both ship and sun allowing >those of the ship to "slip" between those of the sun. That's all I >remember except that the story involved one trip into the sun and >back out. Something unusual happened there,but I haven't the >foggiest idea what anymore. This sounds kind of like "The Golden Apples of the Sun" by Ray Bradbury. This is a short story in the collection by the same name. Brett Slocum Slocum.HI-MULTICS.ARPA ...!inhp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 February 1985 13:14:25 EST From: Mike.Blackwell@cmu-ri-rover.arpa Subject: Re: New from Phantasia Press Is 'The Kif Strike Back' a new sequel? I thought 'Chanur's Revenge' was the sequel to 'Chanur's Venture', but perhaps it was really classified as a continuation. Can't wait for the new Brin book! He did so well on his first two, that 'The Practice Effect' was a little bit of a disapointment, even though it wasn't that bad a book on its own. (Btw, the original working title for 'Startide Rising' was something like 'The Tides of Kithrup'). Could someone please send me the address and phone number of Phantasia Press? Thanks! -m- (mkb@cmu-ri-rover.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 4 Feb 85 16:20:59-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Book Notification For all you lovers of H Beam Piper's Paratime stories, I saw (and bought) on Saturday Roland Green & John F Carr : Great Kings' War Ace Science Fiction 0 441 30200 9 $2.95 It is a sequel to Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen. It's just as good as the original. Nuff said - buy it, and Down Styphon! Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz Subject: "The Dungeonmaster" Date: 3 Feb 85 09:31:21 GMT A lot of times when I leave a movie theater I'm unexcited. The picture entertained me, more or less, while it was on, but left nothing behind. Fairly often I'm disappointed; the film didn't live up to my hopes. Very rarely do I feel cheated, but I felt cheated after seeing "The Dungeonmaster". Understand, now, that I didn't feel cheated after seeing cheesy fantasy adventure films like "Deathstalker" or "Yor". I didn't like them very much, but I didn't feel cheated. Why, then, did "The Dungeonmaster", a film for which I had very low expectations, disappoint me? It's an audition, or, more precisely, several auditions. They made me pay to see a bunch of auditions, and most of those auditioning aren't talented. Throw in the fact that the film is only 65 minutes long, and even at bargain matinee prices I was cheated. I would have been cheated if I saw it for free. The auditioners are seven directors and a special effects company. My best guess about the genesis of this film is that seven people just out of film school got together, pooled some rather meager resources, and decided to make a film to demonstrate their talents. So far, so good. However, they neglected to include in their efforts the one element which impoverished filmmakers can afford to indulge in: imagination. There is not one tiny bit of imagination in this film. It is shoddily written and shoddily directed. The film is divided up into a framing story and seven segments. The framing story is stupid and dull at first, then it improves: it's just stupid and nearly tolerable. The seven segments are ripoffs. The most entertaining thing one can do while watching "The Dungeonmaster" is to decide which films each segment was ripped off from. There's a Ray Harryhausen ripoff; a mad slasher ripoff which if it weren't so close on the heels of "The Terminator" would also play as a ripoff of that film; a wax museum horror movie ripoff; a "Road Warrior" ripoff which starts with a ripoff from "Close Encounters"; a "Living Dead" film ripoff; and there's also a ripoff of a scene from "The Empire Strikes Back". Each segment is directed by a different person. There was no mention of which of them directed the framing sequence, which is hardly fair, since the seven segments account for no more than 40 minutes of the very brief running time. For those not in a mathematical mood, that's a little over 5 minutes a segment. With the exception of Stephen Ford, who contributes the mad slasher segment, none of them show any visible display of talent. If this is the best they can do, they'd better seriously consider going into the haberdashery business. Ford's segment, while no more original in plot than the others, does show some interesting visual choices. If he had more time and a reasonable story to work with, perhaps he might have come up with something worthwhile. As for the others, since they mostly wrote their own "stories", if you can consider five minutes a story, they have no one but themselves to blame. The framing story is quite ridiculous. This dolt who, apparently as a result of an experiment, can "plug in", whatever that means, to his ever-so-intelligent computer is whisked off by some sort of baddy to engage in a contest for the latter's amusement. The baddy may be a wizard, he may be a demon, he may be the devil himself. If the filmmakers ever decided which, they neglected to include their choice in the script. At any rate, this villainous bozo fits up the heroic bozo with a weird costume and a link to his computer. What can the computer do for him? Anything the filmmakers feel is convenient at the moment. Need to fry a nasty? Gee whiz, it can shoot laser beams at the touch of a button. Need to counter an apparition of a dragon? Well, our friendly computer can do that, too. About to fall over a cliff? Not to worry, the computer will project a solid beam of energy for you to hold onto. Worried about where your imperiled sweetie will be when the mad slasher tries to kill her? No sweat, the computer can predict it. Talk about deus ex machina. Perhaps something could be salvaged if the plentiful directors had been talented. They aren't. With the exception of Ford, none of them demonstrate any facility for shooting any sort of scene whatsoever. I will do them a favor by not listing their names. Were I they, I would adopt a new professional name so that I was not associated with this debacle. The only good thing about "The Dungeonmaster" is that a few of the effects are passable. Just like the plots, though, these are ripoffs. A stop-motion animation figure is obviously a little more than inspired by Harryhausen's creations. Even so, it's not bad stop motion animation. Not great, but not bad. A nasty puppet called Ratspit obviously owes something to "The Dark Crystal" and perhaps even to "Gremlins". The energy zaps that the effects people are so fond of have appeared in a dozen space operas. The gruesome makeups aren't new either. In short, Makeup and Mechanical Imageries Inc., and makeup artist John Buechler have made it clear that they are to be considered if you want low budget, unexceptional, unoriginal special effects. Remember, this is the good part of the film. The actors, who I will spare by not naming, do their best and are not to be blamed, but are definitely not in the picture-saving range. The cinematography is passable but undistinguished. As previously stated, the film is only a little over an hour long. The theater I saw it with felt so ashamed that they padded it with a short, almost unheard of nowadays. I can get angry at this running time two ways: it's too short and it's too long. Asking people to pay five or six bucks for one hour's entertainment is almost criminal. On the other hand, it would be nearly as bad if they padded the film with any more of this idiocy. It's taken me longer to write one pass at this review than it did to see "The Dungeonmaster". Why waste this time? Because I want to warn you. Don't see this film! It is absolutely worthless and deserves to sink into oblivion without making a nickel. In fact, please do me a favor and tell your friends not to see it either. Complete outrages against cinema should be punished, and this is the only way to do it. Well, maybe not the only way. If any of you out in netland just happen to know anyone connected with this film, please be so kind as to personally tell them for me that their film sucked and that I think they should be ashamed of themselves. While you're at it, make sure that they pass the message on to all of the other people involved with the film. I fervently hope that someone, preferably someone who had intimate connections with the making of "The Dungeonmaster", takes a huge financial bath on this film. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Feb 1985 08:19-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Re the worst SF movies... Can we consider the 20 or so GODZILLA movies in this category...or are these just taken for granted as being on the list...GODZILLA vs. KING KONG, GODZILLA vs the SMOG MONSTER, GODZILLA VS the ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW (now theres a thought)...and even GODZILLA vs. BAMBI (which was actually very good!) wesm@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"? Date: 5 Feb 85 18:53:58 GMT One thing I always felt was a bit "off" in THE PRISONER: With a number like "6", he should have been high in the ruling heirarchy, with duties to perform in the running of the Village, and subordinates under his control, and for whom he should be responsible. This doesn't jibe with the reason for him being put in there. I recall him being pressured to take part in certain Village activities, and otherwise "play his role", which he resisted. Having an uncooperative low-numbered person would put a crimp (cramp?) in the functioning of the Village. I always thought it would have been better if he had been "Number 47" or "Number 238" or something, instead of "Number 6". Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"? Date: 6 Feb 85 03:36:54 GMT > One thing I always felt was a bit "off" in THE PRISONER: With a > number like "6", he should have been high in the ruling heirarchy, > with duties to perform in the running of the Village, and > subordinates under his control, and for whom he should be > responsible. This doesn't jibe with the reason for him being put > in there. I recall him being pressured to take part in certain > Village activities, and otherwise "play his role", which he > resisted. Having an uncooperative low-numbered person would put a > crimp (cramp?) in the functioning of the Village. I always thought > it would have been better if he had been "Number 47" or "Number > 238" or something, instead of "Number 6". You are forgetting that no one was above suspicion in the village, even number two. Remember the last two episodes, where they show the underground chambers? To my mind, they were an intentional counterpart to the observation room, which they resembled somewhat. I.e., in the observation room you had the "rotating see-saw cameras", while below ground, where the people who really ran things were, you had the rotating see-saw machine guns. John L. Templer University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley "and they called it, yuppy love." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Feb 85 1457-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #45 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 8 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 45 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Silverberg & Vance & Zelazny (3 msgs) & New Releases, Films - Worst SF Movie (4 msgs), Television - Quark (3 msgs) & Overdrawn at the Memory Bank ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Feb 85 13:13:56 EST From: Jeffrey Allred ( RAMD-STU ) Subject: Piers Anthony Anyone got any opinions on Piers Anthony? I think he's great. His best work is done with the Xanth series. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Feb 85 13:08 EST From: Mark F Rand Subject: Majipoor Chronicles Hello.. Has anyone out there read the "Majipoor Chronicles", by Robert Silverberg? There are three books (so far?) in the series.. 1: "Lord Valentine's Castle" 2: "The Majipoor Chronicles" 3: "Valentine Pontifex" I think these books were very imaginative and entertaining. My favorite authors are Jack C. Chalker, Robert Silverberg, Juanita Coulson, Jose' Farmer("Riverworld"), Andre Norton, and Ray Bradbury. My selections for the best SF movies are(not in order of preference): Close Encounters of the Third Kind, E.T., Star Wars and (though more on the fantasy side) Raiders of the Lost Ark. See ya Mark Rand (Tigqc356@Cunyvm) ------------------------------ From: aecom!sanders@topaz (Jeremy Sanders) Subject: Re: Magnus Ridolph Date: 7 Feb 85 00:04:02 GMT > From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) > Could someone give me pointers to Jack Vance's Magnus Ridolph > stories? The stories are available from DAW in paperback under the title (I think) "The Adventures of Magnus Ridolf". All those stories and two more appear in a hardcover book "The Complete Magnus Ridolf" Jeremy Sanders {ihnp4|spike|rocky2|philabs|pegasus|esquire|cucard}!aecom!sanders ------------------------------ Date: 5 Feb 85 11:13:39 EST (Tuesday) Subject: Zelazny From: Chris Heiny "And Call Me Conrad..." is available as "This Immortal", not as "Roadmarks". "Roadmarks" is the one about the road through time, dragons, DeSade &c. It's rather interesting & amusing, but not up to his usual standards. Chris ------------------------------ From: duke!ndd@topaz (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From Date: 3 Feb 85 22:43:09 GMT >Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find >"And Call Me Conrad.." it was more recently published as >"Roadmarks". A must read. > >Brad Miller >...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax,ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm No, "Roadmarks" is not "...And Call Me Conrad", which appeared in F&SF in 1965, and in a longer form as the novel "This Immortal". "Roadmarks" is an entirely different beast, but definitely a must read for Zelazny fans, and highly recommended for other sf readers. Ned Danieley duke!ndd ------------------------------ From: chenr%tilt.FUN@topaz (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From Date: 5 Feb 85 08:25:28 GMT > Not to mention 'Chronicles'. BTW: For those of you trying to find > "And Call Me Conrad.." it was more recently published as > "Roadmarks". > A must read. > > Brad Miller > ...[rochester, cbrma, rlgvax, ritcv]!ccice5!ccice2!bwm "And Call Me Conrad" was re-released as "This Immortal". Definitely a good read. "Roadmarks" is also pretty good. Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr ------------------------------ Date: Tue 5 Feb 85 11:16:34-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: New Books Books received in Palo Alto: Ace (officially, March titles, but Ace runs a month ahead) Casca 13: The Assassin Barry Sadler new novel 2.75 Great King's War Roland Green/John F. Carr 2.9 The sequel to H. Beam Piper's Lord Kalvin of Otherwhen The Song of Mavin Manyshapes Sheri S. Tepper new novel 2.75 To Demons Bound :1 Robert Vardeman/George Proctor 2.75 Sunsmoke James Killus new 2.75 Sabazel Lillian Stewart Carl new 2.75 A Judgement of Dragons Phyllis Gotlieb reprint 2.95 The third of the trilogy is coming in a few months Agent of Terran Empire Poul Anderson reprint 2.75 getting ready for the novel about Flandry's daugther Retief Unbound Keith Laumer reprint 2.95 East of Midnight (MagicQuest 15) Tanith Lee new 2.25 Signet Galaxies Like Grains of Sand Brian Aldiss reprint 2.75 DAW A Bait of Dreams Jo Clayton new 3.50 The Gorgon Tanith Lee new 2.95 The Vizier's Second Daughter Robert F. Young new 2.50 Fugitive in Transit Edward Llewellyn new 2.95 The Douglas Connection " reprint 2.50 Prelude to Chaos " reprint 2.95 Salvage and Destroy " reprint 2.95 Bright Companion " reprint 2.50 I just received the new LOCUS magazine. It contains their recommended reading list for novels, nonfiction, and shorter fiction. Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 85 10:39:45-EST (Wed) From: Judith Tabron Subject: Star Wars I am appalled that more people haven't leaped to Star Wars' defense. True, Star Wars & co. is an old sory-line...the oldest...but that doesn't mean that it's not good. Star Wars deserves a lot of credit. It was magic in a time when we needed magic. It was a fantasy when life was forcing us to be the strictest pragmatists. Lucas presented the tale of boy-meets-girl, etc. in a way that was and is most charming, to almost anyone except those who refuse to be "led astray" into a suspension of willing disbelief. I don't want to force anyone into being enchanted. I read a review once - I don't remember where - where the reviewer waxed absolutely lyrical about Star Wars to a friend of his. "What's it about" his friend asked. And for some reason he couldn't answer that. I know how he feels. If you had asked me, I would have classified it as a fantasy, and on the strength of that alone it should not be even nominated for wors SF movie ever. I don't see why with all the other ruly gross and horrible SF movies floating around, anyone would even consider Star Wars. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 85 13:23:41 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Oh Rocky! From: Couse.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA I always wake up the next morning regretting having made a light hearted response to a topic that others take seriously. >I'm sorry, but I don't like to become a 'conformist'. After a >while, I'd get tired of saying "Where's your $%&{Saturn symbol}!# >neck!" over and over again. Gosh! Did I say to see RHPS in a theater? To shout things back at the screen in unison with others? To conform to anything? I just said to see it a few times. I accomplish this in the privacy of my own home with my VCR, a machine with which I've managed to maintain a civil, non-shouting relationship. >This is true, but I do not agree with the requirement about low >budgets. Please re-read the original message. Low budget was not a requirement, it was merely one of three possible classifications: a,b or c. I am perfectly willing to concede that there are many classifications possible in addition to the three I proposed. May I go home now? /Mary ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 1985 15:58:53-EST From: Robert.Zimmermann@cmu-ee-faraday Subject: Worst of SF While I agree that 'Plan 9' and other Wood specials are terrible; that is really excusable because they were grade-C pictures. When they were made, the standard theatres showed newsreels, cartoons, one-reelers, a serial or two, and the featured film. These (grade-C) movies were just used as fillers, and nobody took them seriously. Now, my nomination for the Worst SF movie of all time is (drum roll) 'The Final Countdown'. A movie which gives new meaning to the word 'pointless'. A modern day aircraft carrier is transported (deus ex machina) to the day before the attack on Pearl Harbor. The entire movie is spent deciding whether to believe what has happened, and then deciding what to do about it. Finally, when they decide to stop the attack they are (deus ex machina) transported back to the present. An all-star cast! A huge budget! A moron writer! Come to think of it, that describes 'Dune' rather nicely. Robert Zimmermann (raz@cmu-ee-faraday) ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: Bad sf films Date: 5 Feb 85 00:14:52 GMT One of my all-time favorite truly bad SF films is called "Mesa Of Lost Women." It's about a mad Dr. Arania who transplants the brains of spiders into people. There's a plane crash on a mesa, Jackie Coogan as a madman passenger, all the spider women are large and the spider men are small... FEMALE LEAD: "Gasp!!?!" MALE LEAD: "What's the matter?" FEMALE LEAD: "I don't know... I could have sworn the woods are full of giant women and tiny little men..." I don't think I've gotten the dialogue right, but I'm sure you catch my drift. Oh, yes, there's a voice-over explaining the "plot," and the musical background consists of a very bad solo Flamenco guitarist. Many close-up shots of leering tiny spider men and ultra-seductive spider women. Check it out if it comes on Creature Feature. ------------------------------ Date: 04 Feb 85 18:54:02 PST (Mon) Subject: Quark/Otherworld From: Dave Godwin Hi folks. OK, here's the scam on Quark, from a guy who saw all the episodes at a con here in LA not too far back and thinks they are marvelous. Every show had side jokes, spoken or just hiding on the set somewhere. Richard Benjamin played one Commander Adam Quark, fearless captain of a Sanitation Ship. He always wanted a real mission ( to go off and fight Gorgons ), and the Head ( who was just a head ) always gave him garbage duty. The first officer was a direct Spock parody, an emotionless plant man, a Vegeton I think. His name was Phicus Panderota, which if my Latin serves, is botanical for a pansy ( no kidding ). There was one scene in one episode where a bad guys daughter told Phicus that he had to mate with her, or she would have quark killed. The process involved laying on one's back, on the floor, arms and legs in the air. Phicus then began to make noises like "beee-beeeee-beeeeeee...". Girl asks 'What are you doing now ? '. Vegeton answers, 'Calling the bee.' The other main character was Gene/Jean, a transmorg. His body never changed ( the actor was male ), but his personality kept shifting from a bold 'When're we gonna go blast us some Gorgies, Commander ?!!' to 'Ooh, I wonder if Gorgons like flowers ?' Gene wasn't to bright. Twins by the name of Barnstable played Betty and Betty, the ship's requirement of beautifull girl in small amounts of clothing. They did this very well. The show was mainly a Star Trek rip, with episodes dealing from a disease that makes you grow old, to the ship being split into good and bad pairs after passing through a black hole. Quark had this habit of looking into the camera and making Star Notes, like 'Star note: Phicus is WEIRD.', after the plant explained that he had a pressure gauge in his ear so that he could monitor his internal hydrolic pressure. See, if the pressure drops too low his legs turn brown and fall off... Oh, and to answer somebody else's recent question, Quark's boss back at the Star Base was indeed played by the same fella who played Mindy's father in Mork and Mindy. His name was Otto Palindrome. ( Hee-yuk ) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Feb 1985 15:58:53-EST From: Robert.Zimmermann@cmu-ee-faraday Subject: Worst of SF 'Quark' was not bad SF, but very good satire. Each episode spoofed a different SF cliche. There was the StarWars epsiode with a talking (and very fallible) SOURCE (played by Hans Conreid). There was the Ultimate Computer episode which forced Cmdr. Quark to enter the ship through the space-baggie door, and ended with the disconnected computer tumbling through space to the tune of the Blue Danube. My favorite episode had a scene where Ficus Ponderata was 'cross-pollinating' with the daughter of the evil Emperor: they were lying on their backs with their limbs in the air, calling the bee! Robert Zimmermann (raz@cmu-ee-faraday) 'Ficus... I ... I ... I think I can feel the bee coming ...' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Feb 85 12:53:38 pst From: robert@sri-spam (Robert Allen) Subject: Quark. Yes, the first episode WAS the best. Gene/Jean was really the best character, particularly when he was playing the ultra-macho male character. Remember what happened when he was in the elevator on the Gorgon ship, and about 7 Gorgon guards got into the elevator as well? Even funnier was his hand to hand attack on the Gorgon barracks, complete with < 30 Gorgon guards. Guess he/she just couldn't resist a scrap. Remember, "UNITED GALAXYS FOREVER!!", R.J.A. ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: PBS's "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" (small spoiler) Date: 5 Feb 85 18:56:15 GMT I saw the PBS version of "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" last night and thought I'd get my two-cents in before anyone else does (at this end of the net, anyway). First, let me say that Varley has long been one of my favorite authors, and I've read everything of his I could get my hands on to date. Having read the short story that the PBS production was supposedly based on, I can understand why little mention was made of Varley in the promos or credits. With the exception of one or two superficial scenes, there is virtually NO RELATION between the short story and the TV version. To those of you who saw the TV version and have not yet read anything by Varley: do not be deceived or discouraged. Varley's writing is vastly better than the cliched, predictable, formula tripe they "based" on his work. [***SPOILER***: Did anyone notice they stole the ending from "The Shockwave Rider" by another author altogether? ***ENDSPOILER***] I don't know what it is about TV and film producers that drives them to tamper with genius, but I suspect they'd revise the Mona Lisa and the Last Supper if they could get their hands on them. The TV version completely ignores Varley's universe and comes up with it's own hackneyed premise of a world controlled by giant, impersonal corporations, one of which will go bankrupt if they can't find the hero's body, lost in one of their amusement parks. (Can you see any major amusement park going broke because someone was injured, or even killed, there?) Meanwhile the personality of Fingal, the hero, is read into the corporation's computer to keep him from deteriorating. This is about the only resemblance to Varley's work apart from a scene where he's being prepared for his two day vacation in the body of an animal and a later scene where the heroine, Apollonia, commands him to quit messing with the computer from the inside. Virtually everything else in the TV version came from the mind of the screenplay writer, who should be ashamed of himself. My advice to those who care about such things is to get some of Varley's books and find out how good his writing really is. Read the original "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank" and pity the television producers and writers who couldn't recognize a good thing when they had one. The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, California 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Feb 85 2206-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #46 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 8 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 46 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Cherryh (2 msgs) & Nourse & Story Request & A Story Request Answered, Films - Worst SF Movie (4 msgs) & The Tunnel, Television - Foxfire & The Prisoner (2 msgs) & Quark (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Science Fiction Book Club (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dukee!eu.kvp@topaz Subject: Hitchhiker's Guide: The Fourth Book Date: 5 Feb 85 18:34:49 GMT I seem to recall a request for information on this newsgroup about the fourth book by Douglas Adams in the Hitchhiker's Guide series. I ran across it the other day, and although I haven't read it (yet) myself, I've been told it's pretty good. The title is: "So Long, and Thanks for the Fish" or something to that effect. Any input on a fifth book to come, and how good this one is? Kathy Van Putte (@ Duke Engineering) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 09:40:23 pst From: kalash%ucbingres@Berkeley (Joe Kalash) To: Mike.Blackwell@cmu-ri-rover.ARPA Subject: Re: Phantasia Press Chanur's Revenge has indeed been changed to "The Kif Strike Back". As to the WHY, I can only guess it is a "joke" with "Revenge of the Jedi" changing to "Return".... Be aware that Phantasia will charge you $40.00 for a copy, it will be one of about 400 signed on acid free paper. Joe Kalash ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 7 February 1985 11:54:36 EST From: Mike.Blackwell@cmu-ri-rover.arpa To: kalash%ucbingres@ucb-vax.arpa (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Phantasia Press Thanks for the info. The reason I was wondering was that I just finished Chanur's Venture, and it ended (right when it was getting good!) with the note "to be continued in Chanur's Revenge." I didn't realize this when I had bouht it, outherwise I would have waited. I guess the title has since changed to The Kif Strike Back. Can't wait! (Might have to shell out real bucks for it, though, unless Daw plans to come out with a PB version soon). cheers, -m- ------------------------------ From: denelcor!lmc@topaz (Lyle McElhaney) Subject: Re: Book Identification -- "Star Surgeon" by Nourse Date: 6 Feb 85 04:09:27 GMT > It is the second in a series of three books, the first one titled > _Hospital Station_. The third title I have forgotten, but the > books are highly recommended! Only three? [quick run downstairs to paperback library] AHA!!! I see the following: Sector General books: Star Surgeon 1963 novel The Aliens Among Us 1969 collection Major Operation 1971 collection Ambulance Ship 1979 novel Sector General 1983 collection Star Healer 1984 novel other SF: Deadly Litter 1964 collection All Judgement Fled 1969 novel Tomorrow Is Too Far 1971 novel Lifeboat 1972 novel Dream Millenium 1973 novel Esacpe Orbit 1983 novel and I noticed that there are two more titles that I haven't seen: The Watch Below and Monsters and Medics. Lyle McElhaney {hao, stcvax, brl-bmd, nbires, csu-cs} !denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!regard@topaz (Adrienne Regard) Subject: Help finding a title Date: 6 Feb 85 22:22:03 GMT Can anyone remember a book of short stories, at least 20 years old, containing "The Lady Who Sailed the Soul"? About a man who sailed a space ship powered by solar power, and aged 40 years in the transit. The ship carried people in suspended animation to a new planet light years away. So, the guy who ran the ship aged 40 years while his passengers did not. Anyway, he met this woman who fell in love with him, so she sailed on one of these ships back to the original destination so that they would be the same age, and this would overcome his scruples toward their relationship. That's a pretty lousy explanation of a wonderfully romantic story, but I hope it sounds familiar? The lead story and the book title were the same and had something to do with drug expanded consciousness -- MindBender? MindBreaker? Something like that. Any clues? THANKS!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 15:34:50 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: Identify This One, Please? > Ships were able to penetrate the sun by a field which somehow >polarized the molecules (atoms?) of both ship and sun allowing >those of the ship to "slip" between those of the sun. That's all I >remember except that the story involved one trip into the sun and >back out. I'm SURE this is or its sequel, both short stories by an author whose name escapes me at the moment. The premise to both is that Earth's weather is controlled by adjusting the temperature of the surface of the Sun. There are computers working out what to do to the Sun to produce the desired effect, and bases and ships on the Sun to dump "cold" gases (either carbon or oxygen) to produce the effect. involves an attempt to satisfy the last request of a dying man, to see snow fall at his home in southern California, and the sequel has the Weather Bureau trying to avert the destruction of the Sun by travelling all the way down to its core. Sure, sounds pretty implausible, but I was really impressed by the idea when I read these as a child. I still can't remember the author's name! Ah well. Hope this is of some help. --Pete ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 10:05:52 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: The Rocky Road To Fame Hey, continuity lovers -- the scene with RoHoPiSho in Fame has them going to a showing where folks are all costumed up, prepared with water pistols, umbrellas, matches, etc. and reciting lines from their seats. I.e., Rocky and his friends must already have been a cult scene (or what would have been the point in what was basically a documentary movie?). Yours till the Worm turns. DPDern ------------------------------ From: uvm-gen!cs102dbp@topaz (no name yet) Subject: Worst movie version of an SF book Date: 7 Feb 85 02:03:34 GMT The movie in question is 'Hide and Seek.' If you loved (or even liked!) The Adolescence of P-1, you'll despise this movie. Although parts of the book were used as a basis for the movie, whoever wrote the script had no idea what they were doing or saying. First, Gregory is a teen-ager in the movie. Second, the movie lasts all of one hour. Third, the treatment of computers was unrealistic, unlike the marvelous details of the book and the obvious expertise of the author, J. Ryan. Overall, I thought the movie was interesting but non-worthwhile. Damon Poole University of Vermont ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann) Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made Date: 6 Feb 85 17:30:05 GMT How can you call Day of the Triffids a bad Sci-fi movie? I thought it was quite good and it is certainly far above the likes of Mars needs women, etc. M. McCann ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz Subject: Re: Another bad SF movie (** small Dark Star spoiler **) Date: 5 Feb 85 23:48:31 GMT Of course they are Time Lords! The beach-ball was their equivalent to K-9! "Let there be light!" Gary ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: The Tunnel (spoiler, but you'll probably never see the Subject: movie) Date: 7 Feb 85 03:57:25 GMT >>Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The >>Transatlantic Tunnel. ... For a 1930's sf movie, it wasn't that >>bad -- but there were some nice howlers. ... ONE BILLION metric >>TONS of spoil that you have to dispose of... was simply ignored! ran@ho95b.UUCP (RANeinast): > And just think of their surprise when they tunnel through the > Mid-Atlantic Ridge! Ever tried tunneling through an *active* > volcano? As a matter of fact, this is exactly what happens! The British tunneling crew encounters a region of extreme heat, and they figure it's probably a volcano, but they go ahead anyway. Disaster does not strike, and minutes later*, they emerge into safer temperatures and immediately break through and link up with the American crew! *when you're digging a transatlantic tunnel, you have to drill fast... So even though the authors* couldn't've known about the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, they not only put in a volcano, but in the right place! *Screenplay by Kurt Siodmak --both the German and the English movies--from a 1913 German novel by B. Kellermann. Mark Brader ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: "The epic SF novel come to ABC this Subject: week..." Date: 4 Feb 85 21:11:11 GMT For those of you who are discussing your favorite SF story you'd like to see as a miniseries on TV, consider: 1. In a recent edition of TV Guide, an interview with the producer of the new female-spies show, "Code name: Foxfire" had this gem (paraphrased, as I don't have the article with me): "We are NOT going to be another "Charlie's Angels". We are striving for realism. We are more like a female version of, "The A Team." The article in TV Guide added an editorial comment: "Which proves what passes for reality in Hollywood." The comment was made on the net, as to how one of the prospective "DUNE" directors wanted to introduce a subplot of incest between Paul and his mother... are you ready for what they'll do to your favorite? 2. Hollywood is a very closed society... if a studio is going to do a miniseries, they will want someone experienced, with a track record. Who is the most likely candidate for selection as producer? GLEN LARSON... as in "Battlestar Galaxative" and "Duck Dogers"! Consider... he has his own production company, and his series have lasted a total of 4+ years on TV. Are you SURE you want to see your favorite epic on the idiot box??? Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) "Be careful what you ask for... you may get it..." ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 5 Feb 85 00:48:54 GMT Just thought I'd add my two cents to this news. Our PBS station here in Philadelphia started showing The Prisoner about 8 weeks ago, and I am enjoying it immensely. It was recommended to me the last time it was shown and I checked it out, but I was only a mere 13 years old at the time, and couldn't appreciate it. Take note that episode 7 ("Many Happy Returns") is exceptionally good -- the best of the series that I have seen so far, so don't miss it if you haven't seen it. The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER, the balloon-like entity which guards the perimeter of the village. The way I see it, they needed a believable way to keep the very clever No. 6 from escaping the island, but is this really believeable? Or am I being unreasonably picky? Any thoughts on this? David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar) St. Joseph's University {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci Philadelphia "A witty saying proves nothing. " --Voltaire ------------------------------ From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 6 Feb 85 19:12:17 GMT > The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER, the balloon- > like entity which guards the perimeter of the village. The way I > see it, they needed a believable way to keep the very clever No. 6 > from escaping the island, but is this really believeable? Or am I > being unreasonably picky? > Any thoughts on this? I love this show! Except for ROVER, though, I wouldn't call it SF. I am not in Philly now, so a friend of mine is taping the entire series for me. When I go home, I watch about 3-4 hours straight of it. About ROVER. I find him silly. Many times you can see the string pulling him along the water, but I don't mind. When you love a show you take a lot of things as givens. ROVER could have been done more convincingly, but such is life in the Village. I hope they tell us who #1 is at the end of the series, or at least get him rescued. Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is? Not that many places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc. Whaddya think? "I am a MAN, not a number!!" -Number Six -Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann) Subject: Re: spoofs and/or "trash" Date: 4 Feb 85 17:57:58 GMT I remember the series Quark but I can't remember who wrote it. If memory still serves me, it was about an interplanetary garbage collector and his adventures while keeping the galaxy clean. It did seem rather funny, but it didn't last to long. M McCann ------------------------------ From: ihopb!suem@topaz (Sue McKinnell) Subject: Quark Date: 7 Feb 85 19:21:31 GMT The current discussion on the TV show Quark has triggered my memory. I believe Buck Henry was one of those who thought up the show with Richard Benjamin. I have a vague memory of one or both of them talking about it as an upcoming show on another show, maybe SNL or Johnny Carson. BTW, Conrad Janis did NOT play the mass-murderer in the Star Trek show "Wolf in the Fold." Sue McKinnell ...!ihnp4!ihu1h!suem IH 4B166 x2361 ------------------------------ From: akgua!tlh@topaz (T.L. Harris [Tom]) Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB Date: 5 Feb 85 15:56:44 GMT I've been a member of the Si-Fi book club for over ten years. They don't get the new titles right away, but their selection of all titles is quite good. They usually have the better books eventually. I can wait! Additionally, their prices have always been reasonable. If you want new titles immediately, you will get no bargains. If you can wait, this is not a bad deal! My collection is probably up to 300 books now, and I'm still backlogged on reading. From the Pond of the Phrog akgua!AT**3 ------------------------------ From: wlcrjs!lazeldes@topaz (Leah A Zeldes) Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB Date: 8 Feb 85 00:45:00 GMT When the SF Book Club's editions cost $1.49 and paperbacks were $1.98, it was a good deal. Now that they've raised their prices so much, it isn't worth what you pay for those cheap editions. Better to save your money for the hardcover, or buy a paperback reading copy. Leah A Zeldes ...ihnp4!wlcrjs!lazeldes ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Feb 85 2232-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #47 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 9 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 47 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs), Films - The Perils of Gwendoline & Rocky Horror & Best SF Movie & 1984, Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 04:42:03 MST From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: ELLISON / DEATHBIRD / QUESTION (help) Cc: seismo!rlgvax!idmi-cc!andrew@utah-cs >From Andrew R. Scholnick (idmi-cc!andrew): > >One of my all time favorite science fiction works was the DEATHBIRD >by Harlan "the little monster" Ellison. ... My only problem with >it was the 'dedication' at the end ... I can't figure it out. ... >Anyone out there know what I'm talking about and have an answer? >... For me the dedication explained the whole story. If it wasn't for the dedication the story wouldn't have had the impact it did on me; I shed a few tears the first time I read it, and a few more re-reading it just now... You'll never understand without going to the source: I suggest A CONNECTICUT YANKEE IN KING ARTHUR'S COURT for the snake's point of view, and NO. 44, THE MYSTERIOUS STRANGER for the human's. I've just recently been reading MARK TWAIN'S MYSTERIOUS STRANGER MANUSCRIPTS (edited from the Mark Twain Papers at Berkeley by William Gibson) and if you're lucky enough to track this volume down in a library somewhere, you'll have an amazing time. Ellison's 'The Deathbird' is a very nice story, but for me it simply doesn't compare to STRANGER... If you ever wonder what made Twain the way he was, I suggest you read THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MARK TWAIN, a document that is surprisingly entertaining and surprisingly touching as well. As long as I'm here, I though I might share a fragment from the Papers that is included in STRANGER MANUSCRIPTS. In ragged manuscript form it reads a bit like verse, so I'll present it as a kind of 'found poetry': The rain continued to beat softly on the panes, & the wind to sigh & wail about the eaves. In the room there was no sound; both of us remained buried in thought. After a long time I roused myself & took up the thread where it had been broken off: 'My perhaps over-warm eulogy of the character of my race, & my praise of its noble struggle against heavy odds toward higher & ever higher moral & spiritual summits, 'have not won from you even the slender kindness of a comment.' The Prince of Darkness answered gravely -- 'Is not silence a comment?' I had invited that thrust, & was ashamed. A Twain fan, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 13:11:25 est From: markl@mit-borax (Mark Lambert) Subject: Ellison's 'Deathbird' dedication > One of my all time favorite science fiction works was the >DEATHBIRD by Harlan "the little monster" Ellison... ...My only >problem with it was the 'dedication' at the end, (for those of you >who haven't read it I won't ?spoil? it for you by printing it here) >I can't figure it out. Nothing in that story happened without a >reason! Having little knowledge of the person referred to, and >little more of his works, I have never been able to understand the >significance of the last line... the 'dedication'. **** SPOILER WARNING **** I believe the dedication at the end of 'Deathbird' is in reference to something Mark Twain once said, to the effect that if God did indeed put us on this earth and permitted all our wars, suffering, etc., then he must have been insane... Mark Lambert markl@mit-borax.arpa "So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell Blue skies from pain" ------------------------------ Date: Wed 6 Feb 85 22:20:16-PST From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon Subject: _Integral_Trees_ The "gravity" at the tufts of the Trees was caused (as the characters often said without understanding) by tides. A tide is acceleration caused by an orbital velocity different from the velocity required at the given distance from the primary (I said all that?). The entire tree was in orbit around the primary (Levoy's Star). The entire tree was kilometers (hundreds of kilometers?) long, yet it could only move at one velocity (without breaking apart). Remember, now, that the inner tuft should be moving faster than the outer tuft, given that is is closer to the primary. If the inner tuft moved too slowly, it would be pulled inward. If the outer tuft moved too quickly, it would fly off into space. Thus, at a certain velocity, the inward and outward forces over the entire tree sum out to zero, and presto-zappo, you have one tree in orbit. But there are people in the tufts, moving at the given tuft's speed, therefore subject to the same inward or outward force that the tuft is subject to. The tree is balanced, but the people are not. Thus, the people would always tend to fall away from the center of the tree. Tidal Gravity. Pretty good, huh? No wonder no one liked grading my physics papers. Andy Gideon Gideon@SU-SCORE.ARPA "Claave! Feed it to the treeee!" "Hi Erica Liebman" 8-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 85 15:20:35 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #44 In reply to George Moore's questions about Integral trees, which were: 1) Why does the tree only have foliage at the ends? and 2) Why is the gravity at the tufts the same and stronger than that at the middle of the tree? The answer (to both questions) is: Tidal forces. Niven first brought this idea up in the story . What happens is that the (angular) orbital velocity at the radius of the out end of the tree is less than that at the in end. Since both ends must have the same angular velocity, the in end winds up traveling too slowly for its orbit, and thus is pulled towards Voy, while the out end travels too quickly and is pulled outwards by "centrifugal force" (Yeah--I know--I've had two years of college physics, so I know it's not real, but hey, you can feel it just as well whether it's real or not). This also accounts for the winds at either end, since the air IS going at orbital velocity. A major purpose of the tufts is to filter debris out of the wind, and pull it into the treemouth. This doesn't work nearly as well towards the middle of the tree, where there is much less wind. The tufts must also be photosynthetic, but I imagine that if the tree gets enough nutrition from the end tufts, it isn't worthwhile to support even more greenery. I hope these are the kind of answers you wanted! While I'm here, I may as well add a few comments about the book as a book: Overall, I enjoyed it, but there was a lack of characterization; it seems to me that this is a general problem with Niven's more recent work. Niven's most memorable characters, to me, are still Gil Hamilton and Louis Wu. Some of the dialogue at the beginning was frighteningly similar to that uttered by cardboard fantasy-novel heroes, but things got better as time went on. I liked reading the book, and still liked it after I finished, and it was INFINITELY BETTER than (bletch) !! "Can we tawk? --Pete {-r Alfke} Here, put your hand in this box." jpa144@CIT-vax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Feb 1985 02:47:43-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: Recent Niven Books From: ucbvax!wildbill (Bill Laubenheimer) >> The story was mainly an exploration of the Smoke Ring, showing >> the reading how diverse and fascinating this place is. >> I hope that the sequel presents a more interesting 'story', now >> that the world has been at least partially explored. > > I recently got \\The Integral Trees// myself. I have the same > complaint: the environment is very interesting, but it all seems > quite unmotivated. Funny, these were my exact feelings about RINGWORLD, and I thought (re: the second ">>" comment) RINGWORLD ENGINEERS was much better for that very reason. > In the latter group are two stories set in the Warlock universe, > which are collected in \\More Magic//. This would appear to be a > collection of previously uncollected Warlock stories, but I > haven't seen it yet. MORE MAGIC is not a collection of more Warlock stories by Niven, but an anthology edited by Niven with stories, by other authors, set in the Warlock universe. They are all original to the anthology, except for one, which is Niven's "Not Long Before the End". It appeared from Ace last June as a trade paperback. Oddly enough, the Berserker story by Niven in LIMITS was solicited for a similar anthology edited by Saberhagen. This book, BERSERKER BASE, will be a trade paperback from Tor Books this month. I believe that all of the stories in it have already appeared in the magazines, though. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 00:37:14 PST Subject: Perils of Bad Movies Now I don't know if the 'Perils of Gwendoline' is supposed to be bad, but it comes real close. Never been to a theatre with people leaving during the first five minutes. Best Scene: The heating dialogue in the wicker jail, with the theatre audience sighing and gasping in perfect sync. ...They had the right attitude toward it... And then they cries of, "Hey, where'd the jungle come from?" And these were spontaneous reactions/protections to the absurdities of the plot...Ever notice that WHENEVER the hero (Willard?-Be real!) uses his grappling hook, he kills someone? ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Feb 1985 02:45:57-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Rocky (Horrible) > From: JOn > Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rocky Horror open to > terrible reviews and close after a few weeks in the theatres? I > seem to remember that the 'Rocky' craze was enabled after the > movie 'Fame' brought it to our attention. Rocky Horror was > supposed to be a serious movie, and it failed in that way. How could RHPS have become a craze only after FAME "brought it to our attention." That scene in FAME was *showing* the already existing craze. I can't say about how the reviews went when the film first opened (the stage show, after running for, I think, a solid year in London, bombed on Broadway, but was another rousing success in LA), but what has that got to do with anything? I first saw RHPS in late 1976/early 1977, and saw a few more times soon after. The craze hit big sometime in 1978. It isn't an outstanding movie by any means, but it's funny, outrageous, and entertaining (and has a good soundtrack). I only wish I had it on videotape, so that I could watch it in peace. It would be nice to see and hear the *movie* again instead of the *audience*. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 85 12:59:10-EST (Fri) From: Judith Tabron Subject: Best SF Movie Now you've done it! Most imaginatively challenging: FORBIDDEN PLANET Most nostalgically exciting: STAR TREK III-WRATH OF KHAN (for hard-core, loving Trekkies) Most romanticized and escapist: STAR WARS, EMPIRE STRIKES BACK & (albeit more fantasy than SF) RETURN OF THE JEDI - AS A WHOLE STORY! Signed, Judi the Dragon Keeper * I still haven't gotten the hang of Thursdays * ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!jsq@topaz (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: 1984 Date: 8 Feb 85 17:26:27 GMT Many of the features of Orwell's 1984, such as the deliberate squalor, absolute control by the state, and the abolition of the past, are also shown in another recent movie, The Killing Fields. The society depicted there has a major difference, however: it was real, and recent. John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas 78712 USA jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq ------------------------------ From: snow!sahunt@topaz (Steve Hunt) Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies? Date: 3 Feb 85 19:23:33 GMT >As we were watching a Dr. Who episode last night, my friend >wondered aloud whether there were more Trekies or more Whoites, >since Dr. Who has been around for a longer span of time than Star >Trek. I told him I'd post the question to this digest and see what >people thought of the difference in numbers between the fans of >each of these series. As a more specific question, since Dr. Who >is a BBC produced series, can we assume that it has a greater >following in England than does Star Trek? [Sonia Schwartzberg ] I haven't seen the TV ratings recently, but I think that Dr. Who has a much bigger following than Trek here in England, mostly because new episodes are being made and will continue to be for the forseeable future. The BBC are currently re-running Trek but I find I can remember the plots almost word for word - my loyalty to a show wanes after I've seen all the episodes half a dozen times! Also an eccentric character like Dr Who is far more interesting than all the military types in Star Trek. From the cutting edge of computer science, Steve Hunt ... mcvax!ukc!qtlon!flame!ubu!snow!sahunt ------------------------------ Date: 05 Feb 85 21:53:21 PST (Tue) Subject: Dr. Who: BBC or ITV? From: Alastair Milne In a previous message (mostly concerning Romana's hat), I said I thought that Dr. Who was an ITV product. It isn't. Sorry about that. The end of each episode states that it is a BBC Colour production, distributed by Lionheart. The old sieve ... I mean memory ... strikes again. A. Milne ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Feb 1985 08:19-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Whoites, Trekies, and other stuff Re the hats on Dr. Who, Lala ward (ex Mrs Tom Baker) was the only hat wearer that had a problem keeping a wide brim on her head, although just about all the other females wore hats at one time or another. When it comes to voting for which I'd rather watch, Dr. Who or Star Trek, I find it hard to make a choice. Dr. Who, which to me comes off like a SF soap opera, has some very interesting concepts, a good deal of humor, a cast that is ever changing, and manages to stay interesting. I can't believe that the show is aimed at kids up to 12. A lot of the concepts are way over most of their heads. I guess its the ROCKY AND BULLWINKLE of SF. (Now I'm in for it!). I like STAR TREK for different reasons. Here we have a stable cast and stories that attempt to be totally believable as far as future possibilities are concerned. A totally different concept. (Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life on the net!) wesm@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Feb 85 2315-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #48 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 10 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 48 Today's Topics: Books - Niven & O'Donnell (2 msgs) & Varley & Zelazny, Films - Worst SF Movie (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz Subject: Niven's Characters Date: 10 Feb 85 01:34:29 GMT >Overall, I enjoyed it, but there was a lack of characterization; it >seems to me that this is a general problem with Niven's more recent >work. Niven's most memorable characters, to me, are still Gil >Hamilton and Louis Wu. What? Bewulf Shaeffer - hero of "Neutron Star" (a.k.a "There is a Tide") (which you mentioned), first man to know that the center of the Galaxy has exploded, one of the only two men to have visited an anti-matter solar system (and collect on the failure of a GP hull!), one of the few humans to be featured in a kdatlyno touch-sculpture, and father of Louis Wu doesn't make the list? Kevin O'Donnell, a relativly new author, has come out with 5 books that I know of. I have read four of these and greatly enjoyed them. A short review of the four I read follows, I recommend them all. "LAVA", "REEFS", "CAVERNS" (3 books), The Journeys of McGill Feighan (Berkley) These 3 books cover the adventures of McGill Feighan, a Flinger (ie a teleporter) from birth. In the first book, he is swallowed by a giant gastropod creature supposedly sent by the Far Being Retzglaran. At age 5, he becomes a Flinger, and at 17 enters the Flinger academy, where he is trained in teleporting. Meanwhile, an intersteller crime Mafia type organization, called The Organization, decides to capture Feighan, mainly because they have dealt with the work of the Far Being Retzglaran before. Although no one seems to know anything about the Far Being, he usually causes lots of trouble for the Organization. The rest of the books deal with Feighans career as a Flinger, and his quest to find the Far Being to find out why he was swallowed by the Gastropod, and what his life is all about. The series is fairly humorous, but with a serious plot line. It is pretty entertaining. I especially liked the teleporting aspects (there really don't seem to really be very many teleport stories around). "ORA:CLE" (Berkley) ORA:CLE stands for Opinions, Research, Advice: Computer Linked Experts. If you want information, and are willing to pay, ORA:CLE can help with its network of Experts, linked by computer (through an implant allowing direct contact with the brain). The story centers around Ale Elatey, a CLE on Oriental History, who is almost murdered more than once. It turns out that many of the CLE's have died under mysterious circumstances. Meanwhile (the book takes place 100 years from now) in this future history, the Dacs, huge winged creatures, have invaded the Earth. We do not have the power to stop them, but they have not succeeded yet either. There is currently a ceasefire in effect, but the Dacs fly around and attack anyone out in the open. Thus people have "Dac Alarms" which alert you of approaching Dacs and warn you to get indoors. standard phrase used is "Do be careful" (as in the news service notice: "This update has been provided as a public service by all data management corporations participating in NEWSBANK/MC....To see the headlines of the day's other news stories, simply scroll your screen up. Thank you, and do be careful.") Anyway the background of the story, with the Dac invasion, matter transmitters, Computer linked experts, etc. is very interesting. I thought the ending of the story was a little weak, but on the whole well worth reading. If you're looking for something new to read, try these. Thank you, and Do be Careful... Alan ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!ivan@topaz (Ivan M. Milman) Subject: Re: Kevin O'Donnell Date: 9 Feb 85 17:42:54 GMT Reply-to: ivan@ut-sally.UUCP (Ivan M. Milman) Another excellent book by Kevin O'Donnell is "Mayflies". I won't spoil it for you (much!) except to say that it is the most interesting book on the man-machine interface that I've read in a long time, and is just plain old terrific SF. Enjoy, Ivan Milman ARPA: ivan@ut-sally.ARPA USENET: {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ivan Bell: (512)471-4760 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 85 13:17:00-EST (Fri) From: Judith Tabron Subject: Response to Bill Laubenheimer I was *very* impressed by Varley myself; so much so that I have already formulated stories for Cirrocco Jones (my highest honor), who has become my favorite female hero and perhaps all-around character. She is so believable, so real, that she gives you a touchstone for believing the rest of Titan. My battered copy of _Titan_ bears witness to that. Anybody else fascinated enough with Greco-Roman mythology to understand all the references Varley makes? For me that added to the fun of reading _Titan_; I especially loved Varley's "interpretation" of centaurs in the Titanides, but can't figure out why he named them that when the Titanides in mythology were nothing like his centaur-like beings in the book. I thought Varley's ending to _Demon_ was well-done and pretty satisfying. I would love more books on Titan, but if they get much more esoteric than the ending of _Demon_ I'm afraid they will lose that earthy feel _Titan_ started out with, and that I so treasure in Cirrocco. Judi, Dragonkeeper "On no account allow a Vogon to read poetry to you." "A poet who reads his verse in public may have other nasty habits." ------------------------------ From: calmasd!gail@topaz (Gail B. Hanrahan) Subject: Re: Yet Another Zelazny Oldie Heard From Date: 4 Feb 85 21:56:25 GMT bwm@ccice2.UUCP (Bradford W. Miller) writes: >... BTW: For those of you trying to find "And Call Me Conrad.." >it was more recently published as "Roadmarks". A must read. _And Call Me Conrad..._ (is that really the original title?) was more recently published as _This Immortal_. _Roadmarks_ is no relation. I recommend _Roadmarks_ -- I have to love a book that has all the chapters numbered 1 or 2. Zelazny was doing some strange stuff in this book, and it is one of his best. Gail Bayley Hanrahan Calma Company, San Diego {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail ------------------------------ Date: Fri 8 Feb 85 20:00:25-PST From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon Subject: Bad movies [Note: Due to totalitarianism on the part of a certain site, the author of this message cannot send it here herself without suffering the loss of her access to the network(ing) world. As I find this policy personally distasteful, and because I greatly admire and adore the author, I am submitting it on her behalf. In other words, I haven't the slightest notion what she is talking about, and refuse to accept any blame for the psychological damage which may result from reading her work.] As far as these pitiful attempts to find the world's worst SF movie of all time, one movie has been over looked. I am not quite sure of the title, but here is a brief description. I saw it several years ago on Cable TV, it never even got to the theaters it was so bad. It was on the tail wind of Star Wars and an obvious attempt to cash in on its selling potential. It was about a young hero, who had a link in with some Force-like magic who went around whining. The hero was played by Marjoe Gortner, who many may not remember as a child evangalist. Christopher Plummer had a bit part as the Emperor (I don't know if he was evil or not) and seemed accutely embarrased throughout the thirty or forty seconds that he appeared on screen. (He got top billing, if I remember correctly). What really stands out in my mind were the giant amazon robots, which tried to be physically as true to women as possible. i.e. get the idea -- especially around the front upper torso region? The greatest reason to assume that this may (or may not be) one of the all time worst movies is that it wasn't meant to be bad. This is pretty obvious. Pathetically so. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 23:48:36 EST From: Augenbra%udel-eecis3.delaware@udel-louie.ARPA Subject: Worst SF movie of all time I have been watching the debate over the worst SF movie of all time with some interest now. I thought that someone would eventually bring up a very important point, one that might alleviate some of the argument: There are actually 2 categories of "bad" SF movies, the ones that are awful movies, and therefore not entertaining at all, and those that are in some way so bad that they are hysterically funny. Here comes the part that makes me feel important. I am about to bestow upon you poor unsuspecting souls MY opinion on the "worst SF movies of all time". In the newly created "so bad its bad" category, the clear-cut winner for me is Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. When our school had a "bad films" festival last year, all of the other films managed to attract people as they were shown. Not AotKT, it started out with the room packed, and ended up with only 10 people who could stomach the whole thing. It is a thoroughly unenjoyable flik. In the "so bad its enjoyable" category, probably Plan 9 is the winner, although I only got to see about 10 minutes of it. In my 10 minute tenure, I saw a flying saucer that was a pie tin suspended by a string with the wind blowing. I heard that the visual effects that I saw were far and away the best the movie had to offer. I've seen nothing else that is even close to that level of awfultude. Let's make a third category while we're at it for movies that were great, but you're not quite sure what they're meant to be. There are two movies that I wish to put in this category: Dark Star and Repoman. I must jump on the pro-Dark Star bandwagon, because I enjoyed it an awful lot. I have not seen anything on the NET about Repoman, but I really enjoyed it. I have not found another human being who saw it besides the people I was with, and I'd be interested in other people's reactions. I'd also like to know if it was suppossed to be a serious movie or not. While we're at it we might as well put Rocky Horror in its own category [you know I'm just going to keep making up categories until I've mentioned every movie ever made]. Rocky Horror probably would have ended up in the "so bad its bad" category if the whole litany had not evolved. Rocky Horror can be a lot of fun to go to, but cinematographically speaking, it is rather lame. This puts it in a unique category. I hope I didn't offend anyone's favorite unfavored film. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Feb 1985 14:48:45-PST From: andy_leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Don Quixote ^ ) Subject: Dr Who >From: ihlpg!jcgowl@topaz (r. gowland) >Part of the reason why the Dr. Who show doesn't seem to have such a >big following in the UK is that it is made for and aimed at >children in the age-group from 5 to 12. It is broadcast in prime >childrens' viewing timeslots, usually 5pm Saturday with sometimes >repeats at 6pm on a Monday. It is acknowledged by many that the >programme is for kids, but loved by adults. I *like* (as opposed to >*love*) it, but prefer Star Trek which comes at us in 50 minutes >complete programmes. Dr. Who (as Richard Jeffreys probably pointed >out) is shown over 4, 5 or 6 weeks at 25 minutes per episode. >ihlpg!jcgowl Roger R. Gowland at Indian Hill (temporarily) Tom Baker was interviewed on the BBC at a US convention and what he said (more or less) was that the Brits don't quite go over the top in the way that American fans do. He also said he failed to understand the fuss, pretty ordinairy part really, but at least it got him free US trips. The conventionite, be (s)he 'Trekkie' or 'Whoite' is quintissentially american and the antics at these confirm many Brits fears about american sanity :-) Over the years Dr Who has been shown in several formats. For many years this was Saturday night at some time between 5 and 6:30 pm, episode lengths varying from 20 to 45 minutes. Longest story in terms of episodes was probably 'Daleks invade the earth' which was screened in the mid-sixties and lasted about 13 episodes. (Forgive an old memory if thats inexact) A couple of years ago the format became twice-weekly on weekday evenings at 7:00 pm, length about 25 mins. Questions were asked in Parliament ( I kid you not ) about this shift in the schedules, eventually the furore died down on a promise of a resumption of normal timing. This year, Dr Who stories consist of 2 * 45 min episodes and it is back to Saturday evenings at 5pm-ish. The writing is much better than of late but the models of spaceports and suchlike are still in the 1950's papier mache' style. (As well as the above, there have been compilations, whole stories told in 1 hour 'specials', put in to the summer schedules) It may well have been the original intention to appeal to children of 10 and under, but children under 100 seem to like it instead. I have watched every episode since 1962, either in serial or 'special' mode. I would like to comment on the 'plots' debate. Dr Who plots have varied wildly over the years from the inane to the insane, from good to superlative. Some of the best stuff I have seen for ages is in the current series. But several mainstays of the series have been changing. The Tardis has regained its chameleon ability, although screwed up ( a church organ in a scrap yard [?!] ) and the Doctor has actually gotten in a fight and beaten up a human opponent. He is far more agressive than days of yor. He has killed Cybermen and friendly characters have been killed. In recent times the worst that would have happened is that they would have caught a cold (with the notable exception of Adric). Indeed, I think that had all the old mainstays been left intact, Dr Who would have drifted into a shadow of its former self and been canned in short time. As to Star Trek, well, its very nice for a 17 year old series, still pretty much a macho-man yarn, some stories stick in the mind ( remember the demented singing of "I'll take you home again, Kathleen" over the ships tannoy episode?), others stick in the Mudd. It is important to remember that Star Trek suffered far fewer constraints than Dr Who ( the hero was allowed romance, for one ). AND IT FINISHED. It is always easier to forgive mistakes in the old than in the new. forgive the rambling... Andy (<>^<>) Leslie ARPA: andy_leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-perch!andy_leslie USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., UVO-7 Jays Close, Basingstoke, Hampshire, England. Tel: +44 256 56101 x3615 ------------------------------ From: snow!dpa@topaz (David Angier) Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies? Date: 5 Feb 85 15:29:42 GMT > I think you mean simply that "Dr. Who" is English. I think it's > actually made by one of ITV's (Independent TeleVision) divisions, > Lionheart. ITV is Britain's commercial network , though not > nearly so commercial as the North American ones. "Dr. Who" is produced and run by the British Broadcasting Corporation. I am English so I should know, I also watch it every Saturday and watch Star Trek every Wednesday. Dave (Maths @ Warwick University, UK) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Feb 85 2345-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #49 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Feb 85 2345-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #49 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 10 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 49 Today's Topics: Books - Story Request Answered (2 msgs), Films - Rocky Horror (3 msgs) & The Tunnel, Television - Otherworld (3 msgs) & The Prisoner (6 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Feb 1985 19:09 EST From: INGRIA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: ttidcc!regard@TOPAZ.ARPA (Adrienne Regard) Subject: Help finding a title > From: ttidcc!regard at topaz (Adrienne Regard) > Can anyone remember a book of short stories, at least 20 years > old, containing "The Lady Who Sailed the Soul"? About a man who > sailed a space ship powered by solar power, and aged 40 years in > the transit. The ship carried people in suspended animation to a > new planet light years away. So, the guy who ran the ship aged 40 > years while his passengers did not. Anyway, he met this woman who > fell in love with him, so she sailed on one of these ships back to > the original destination so that they would be the same age, and > this would overcome his scruples toward their relationship. > That's a pretty lousy explanation of a wonderfully romantic story, > but I hope it sounds familiar? The author was Cordwainer Smith. The man was called ``Mr. Grey-no-more'' and the woman was called ``Helen America''. > The lead story and the book title were the same and had something > to do with drug expanded consciousness -- MindBender? MindBreaker? > Something like that. Any clues? THANKS!!!! Smith didn't have many collections out. ``The Lady who Sailed the Soul'' appears in one called @i[You Will Never Be the Same], copyright 1963. The date and title fit your recollection, but there is no Corwainer Smith short story titled ``You Will Never Be the Same'', in this collection or elsewhere. However, the same collection DOES include ``No, No, not Rogov!'', about a Soviet Scientist who builds a monitor which turns out to be able to see the future and which presents him with a vision that shatters his mind; and ``The Burning of the Brain''. Either of them might be the story you're thinking of. The collection also includes the classic ``Scanners Live in Vain'' and ``The Game of Rat and Dragon'', both of which have been anthologized frequently. This collection has been out of print for a long time, but it turns up in used book sections from time to time. Del Rey/Ballantine reissued Smith's short stories in @i[The Best of Corwainer Smith] and @i[The Instrumentality of Mankind] in 1975 and 1979. I believe these two are still in print, although I'm not sure. Bob (``Flectere si nequere Superos/Acheronta movebo!'') Ingria ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 85 14:27:26 PST (Sun) To: ttidcc!regard@topaz Subject: Re: Help finding a title From: Jim Hester I can't help you on the collection/anthology you requested, but can give you some other pointers to "The Lady who Sailed THE SOUL", if you were looking for the story rather than the book. It was written by Cordwainer Smith (in real life: Paul Myfron Anthony Linebarger), and is my all-time favorite in the 'romance' SF class. Much of Smith's stuff is worth reading. He created a "future history of mankind" that has some really interesting twists. "The Lady.." has appeared in: "Galaxy: Thirty Years of Innovative Science Fiction" edited by Frederik Pohl, Mat\rtin H. Greenberg, and Joseph D. Olander Playboy Press, date unknown "The Best of Cordwainer Smith" edited by J. J. Pierce Nelson Doubleday, Inc. 1975 [Moderator's Note: Thanks to the following people who presented the same or similar information: Leonard N. Zubkoff (Zubkoff@TL-20B) Wang Zeep (G.ZEEP%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC) Evan Kirshenbaum (evan@SU-CSLI) Lee Gold (sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz) ] ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible) Date: 7 Feb 85 20:33:44 GMT > Now wait just a minute here! Rocky Horror Picture Show was trashed > by the critics, if that is really of any signifigance. But it was > indeed a cult classic long before "Fame" rode to fame on it's > coat-tails! From someone whose only exposure to "Fame" has been [avoiding] the TV series, would some kind soul explain what the movie "Fame" has/had to do with Rocky Horror? Thanks! Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible) Date: 9 Feb 85 07:02:53 GMT >> Now wait just a minute here! Rocky Horror Picture Show was >> trashed by the critics, if that is really of any signifigance. >> But it was indeed a cult classic long before "Fame" rode to fame >> on it's coat-tails! > > From someone whose only exposure to "Fame" has been [avoiding] the > TV series, would some kind soul explain what the movie "Fame" > has/had to do with Rocky Horror? Very little actually. In one scene in "Fame", two of the students from the School of the Performing Arts go to a New York theater to see "The Rocky Horror Picture Show." Well, at this theater, there is a group of amateur actors who put on a show patterned after the movie RHPS. During one scene in RHPS, one of the students got up and started dancing along with the people on stage. Afterwards, when explaining to her friend why she did it, she says something like "The audience didn't see me, they only saw the character I was playing." John L. Templer University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley ------------------------------ Date: Sat 9 Feb 85 13:46:55-PST From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #47 >It isn't an outstanding movie by any means, but it's funny, >outrageous, and entertaining (and has a good soundtrack). I only >wish I had it on videotape, so that I could watch it in peace. It >would be nice to see and hear the *movie* again instead of the >*audience*. No, actually, it wouldn't. I was an avid (though not fanatical) RHPS fan for several years before being in a dorm production of the show (imagine trying to dance when 200 people are shouting and throwing things at you...but that's another story). Since the show I have seen RHPS twice. It's still fun, but even with the audience, it is incredibly slow. The movie was obviously made for audience participation, as they left holes in the dialogue for it all over the place (Being on stage, we couldn't so we tightened it up a lot). I don't think it would be anywhere near as much fun to see alone. As a possible explanation of the lack of success of the stage play on Broadway, have you ever seen (or heard) the music for the original? They improved it quite a bit for the Movie. evan {evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA} {...!glacier!evan} (I!never!use!UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 85 19:25 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: The Tunnel If /The Tunnel/ was made in 1935, it has no relation to Harry Harrison's /A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah/, (aka /Tunnel thru the Depths/ or something like that), since that was written much later. I have the original magazine version and while I don't remember the exact year, it was in /Analog/ (not /Astonishing/), so its some time since the name change. At a guess, maybe the early seventies? Mark ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 00:45:01 PST Subject: Otherworld Joke A friend of mine, after watching the show, remarked: "It's too bad the robot girl couldn't go with the family.." "Why?" I asked in perfect straight man mode. "Well, with the young daughter, the Mother from Better Homes, and the continuously grumpy Smith, she could stand and wave her hands - Danger! Danger!" Seriously - Info on the Hanglider stunts can be found in Ultralight Magazine. Victor O'Rear <-- No, I don't work here - I just read the mail. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 85 13:09:19-EST (Fri) From: Judith Tabron Subject: OTHERWORLD Due to circumstances beyond my control, I saw most of last week's episode, in which Trace (the oldest boy) is drafted for life but manages to get out before his 55 min. + commercials are up. Oddly enough, I liked it, due mostly to the general idea behind the episode and the acting of whoever played Trace and Mark Lenard, an old favorite, playing his commandant. The only unpredictable line in the entire show - at least to me - was "I would start a collection of hands." That startled me out of the rut the rest of the dialogue was in. If they hired two good writers who can handle the premise, and cleaned up the dialogue (BOR-ing!) and do something about the artificiality of the father's thought-soliloquies, I would watch it again. My only other suggestion is to kill off the mother; she is useless and prevented more than helped the plot from moving, & worsened the dialogue. Judi ------------------------------ From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael Weiss) Subject: Re: OTHERWORLD Date: 5 Feb 85 02:57:34 GMT I have seen episodes 1 and 2. Ep1 looked great. They entered the pyramid when all the planets were aligned or something, and that is what caused their little trip to another world. They are now trying to get to a place in this world where by legend you get to your home world. Ep2 stunk. They are concentrating on one of the kids too much instead of the family, or even any other member. I hope it turns out better, it is a very good plot. Even if it does have some extremely sappy, walton-ish moments. Esp. noteworthy is the part of Zone trooper commander Kroll (sp). I dunno who plays him (it was the main henchman in Beverly Hills Cop), but he is great. Nice and evil looking. Your reviewer from the outer limits... -Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 85 14:41 EST From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"? "With a number like "6", he should have been high in the ruling heirarchy" "You are forgetting that no one was above suspicion in the village, even number two." Also, it was pointed out in a number of episodes that Number 6 was somehow "special". Number 2 always had orders that Number 6 was not to be harmed. His number reflects his status. Evidently, the Village just had a smaller ruling hierarchy than say your typical large American corporation. What I always wanted to know is who were Numbers 3, 4, and 5. I don't recall a single mention of them. - Michel ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 7 Feb 85 19:51:23 GMT >I love this show! Except for ROVER, though, I wouldn't call it SF. >I hope they tell us who #1 is at the end of the series, or at least >get him rescued. Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is? >Not that many places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely >rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc. Whaddya think? > >-Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss I do share your enthusiasm for The Prisoner, and agree that it really isn't SF (but where else would we discuss it?). I don't think we'll ever find out who No.1 is, but I think that No. 6 will eventually escape. If there's anyone out there who knows, please don't spoil it for us. Anyway, there's more I could say if you've seen "Many Happy Returns" (episode 7), but I don't want to spoil anything for you if you haven't. Here's a trivia question for observant Prisoner fans: What is No. 6's address in London? And another question: What in God's name is that umbrella-looking thing that all the No.2's carry? This must have some significance. The location of the Village? That I can tell you. It's on the Baltic Sea on the coast of Lithuania. I don't believe that that means that it is a Communist institution, though. I am convinced that British intelligence runs it. Episode 9 tonight in Philly. Be seeing you! David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar) St. Joseph's University Philadelphia {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!myers@topaz (Jeff Myers) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 8 Feb 85 23:18:26 GMT > Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is? Not that many > places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely rains, never > cold), with a bay and mountains, etc. Whaddya think? > > "I am a MAN, not a number!!" -Number Six As I recall, the Village is actually a little burg on the south coast of Wales. jeff m ------------------------------ Date: 8 Feb 1985 20:05:08 PST Subject: The Prisonor on videotape From: Alan R. Katz I just bought a couple of the Prisonor videotapes. They are very high quality prints. They are releasing 3/month, the first 6 episodes (up through "The General") are out already, episodes 7-9 should be availible Feb. 20. The tapes go for $39.95 each, a little steep for 52 minutes, but worth it if you like the show. (I have found copies of tapes aren't all that great, apart from the copyright infringement). The tapes should also be generally availible for rental (if people like me don't buy them all). Alan ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 9 Feb 85 06:49:19 GMT Argh!!! I can't stand it anymore! Having seen the complete sequence of "Prisoner" episodes twice, I am having much difficulty restraining myself from telling all. Oh, well. Any way, where all is it currently being shown? It has been too long since I have seen it. John L. Templer University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley ------------------------------ From: tty3b!sol@topaz (9-13-84"Solveig 94120) Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"? Date: 8 Feb 85 16:12:02 GMT I always had the impression that Number 6 had a low number for several reasons: 1. He had been an important person who had disagreed with his higher-ups, and thus was too knowledgeable to fire or dispose of in any other way except sending him the the Village. He had a high number because of his former position in the power structure that had put him in the Village; 2. His ablility to thwart his captors repeatedly led them to respect him, thus they were always trying to get him to buy into their system. Part of their persuasion was to give him a high rank (number) in the Village; 3. It seemed he had been there for a long time, while other members of the cast came and went. Perhaps he had a lower number because of the length of his stay. Did you ever see the episode(s) where he met Number 1? I saw this series so many years ago , I can't remember exactly what happened, but I thought Number 6 recognized him. Number 6 was obviously part of the whole structure which was keeping him captive (or had been at one time). I have been looking for this series to be rebroadcasted on PBS for years now. I originally saw it on WNET, New York, but have not seen it again there or in any other city. Any info on the series would be welcome. Solveig Whittle ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Feb 85 0017-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #50 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 50 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Donaldson & May, Films - Worst SF Movie, Television - Dr. Who & V (2 msgs) & Battlestar Galactica & The Prisoner (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Einstein's Time Capsule ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ptsfb!djl@topaz (Dave Lampe) Subject: Quotes in \"Myth-ing Persons\" Date: 7 Feb 85 00:50:22 GMT I have just read Myth-ing Persons by Robert Asprin. One of the things I enjoy about this series is the fractured quotations at the beginning each chapter such as : "Success often hinges on choosing a reliable partner." Remus "To survive, one must be able to adapt to changing situations" Tyrannosaurus Rex "First, let's decide who's leading and who's following." F. Astaire "I've never seen so damn many Indians." G.A. Custer I only have one problem. Can anyone give me a hint as to the import of : "Don't be fooled by appearances." Malloy and who is/was Malloy? Thanks, Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell {ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl (415) 774-9581 ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever Date: 6 Feb 85 21:39:21 GMT >from red@ukma.UUCP > Yikes! Not fifteen! I couldn't make it through any more than the > first three. > > As to what I think of the books: GARBAGE! GARBAGE! GARBAGE! > > Covenant doesn't seem real to me. His actions don't make sense. > The reason I read as much of it as I did was to pick out more of > the background (which makes a good setup for a DND campaign). Such is your opinion. I guess it's only to be expected; people can only judge from experience. Most people who've never experienced being an outcast wouldn't be able to understand, much less judge clearly. Suffice it to say that I can relate to enough of Thomas Covenant's actions and feelings that I can easily conjecture that what I can't understand is a result of his being just about the ultimate outcast. It would fit with my experience. I find Linden Avery (second Chronicles) hard to understand and harder to accept. But I have never had *her* experiences, so I cannot judge. Anyone out there willing to step forward? --bsa Brandon Allbery @ decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa (..ncoast!tdi1!bsa business) 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio 44131 +1 216 524 1416 (or what have you) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 85 19:10 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Julian May Re: Felice ***** SPOILER WARNING ***** While it is true that Felice isn't killed in /The Non-born King/, as explained in /The Adversary/, the question is why bother to mention this, since it doesn't matter to the rest of the book. One also might ask why the scene was at the front of /The Adversary/ rather than back in /The Non-born King/. My feeling is that Felice will turn up in the Milue trilogy, after having been a ruby for however many million years. Now, what I want to know is why the Guderian device made in Exile went /forward/, while the one made in the Milue went backwards. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun 10 Feb 85 14:53:37-PST From: Doug Bryan Subject: worst SF movie ever My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars". I have not seen this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female character who has quite large breasts. Any comments?? Doug Bryan bryan@su-sierra facts are temporary... long live fantasy! ------------------------------ From: snow!asz@topaz (Jerry Cornelius) Subject: Re: Whoites vs Trekies Date: 8 Feb 85 17:22:15 GMT I'm sorry but Tom Baker was wrong. There are whoites in England and quite a few of them. Both convention and zine fandom exist and flourish. I've no idea about Star Trek, I just like it. I think the fact that Star Trek has finished while Dr Who continues with new stories and Doctors may have some influence with the future. This means that another generation will grow up with another Doctor. ... mcvax!ukc!qtlon!flame!ubu!snow!asz ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: "V" is changing... Date: 7 Feb 85 21:15:21 GMT Last week's episode of "V" (delayed from an originally-scheduled earlier airing, showed quite a few changes. The intro/opening credits were different, and some of the major characters are gone (including the token crazed-right-wing-CIA-madman Ham Tyler, who hadn't been killed off in the show, as far as I can recall; just brainwashed into even-more-dangerous instability). Duncan Regehr managed to get out of his guest-star slot as Charles (lizards leaving a sinking series?), and the plot had even more holes than usual (for example, someone saying that he was there to "shave Diana's body", when her human skin is only makeup), and a royal lizard wedding where Charles & Diana (do those names ring a bell?) remained in human disguise while indulging in lizardish ritual. A little bit more presence of lizards, and even a bit of speaking in native tongue, as opposed to English. Some nice touches: "cat poison" and "rodent musk" perfume. At least one of the writers is trying to slip a few bright spots into this mess. Silly aspect: Charles' poisoning causing his makeup to fall away and accelerated decomposition. And HOW a lizard-creature could find an alien mammalian sexually attractive is beyond me; anthropomorphism runs amok! (If Lydia wanted to seduce Charles, she should have stripped off her makeup and been a lady lizard again...) Bates is simply stated to have "died" in the opening newscast, and there is no mention of the elaborate pulse-monitor and red-dust caches which were supposed to explode and kill off the lizards if he happened to die. Since much was made of this before, we are now simply supposed to forget it ever happened? Humph! Also, anyone notice what seemed to be an abrupt and awkward cut in that opening newscast? It looks like a segment of that was dropped out at the last minute. (Using Howard K. Smith (a real newsman) in that opening news broadcast is one of the best features of this series; a good technique for verisimilitude. Too bad the following nonsense undercuts this so much.) The series never adequately explained why Bates (a corporate boss) became a political power, to such a degree that ordinary street cops used the phrase "Bates' orders" to explain whatever martial-law-type actions they were taking. If he now is so casually discarded, it is about time to modify the settings; there has been a lot of pretense of "carrying on a normal life" while under lizard control, only allusions to people being rounded up for food in other areas (remember "The Butcher of Birmingham"?) and various other aspects of a "real" war of conquest -- why haven't the humans been spewing tons of red dust into the atmosphere to renew the interdiction of the Visitor presence? Why haven't the Visitors been nuking pockets of resistance? Another bit of evidence the writers have no idea what to do next -- they are introducing new weaponry every show, as side gimmicks, but then don't know what to do with it. Nonsense like the lizard patrol waiting for the people in the bombed-out building to surrender, giving them an endlessly-extending "5 minutes"... What do they care? Level the block and move on... The Visitors have had enough time to suck the oceans dry and fill the ships with corpsicles by now; it's getting harder to find reasons for dilly-dallying around. Well, we'll see what happens next... I vote to put Faye Grant in a body stocking again and give her another dose of "interrogation"; that had to be one of the highlights of this mess... Ooops! My dinner's crawling off the table... Bye! Will ------------------------------ From: rlgvax!oz@topaz (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ) Subject: Re: "V" is changing... Date: 10 Feb 85 00:57:34 GMT Here in Washtington DC (AKA "The District") we are blessed with a marvelous TV columnist "Captain Airwave." The Good Captain gives us news on what is happening in the world of TV as well as adding some of his own comments to the blurbs provoided by the networks about a particular nights episode (Tonight Sam has Fraser going Snipe hunting in the woods. Now, really Sam) Be that as it may, Captain Airwaves warned us a few weeks ago that NBC (or perhaps the shows producers, I can't recall which one) had decided that there were too many people on the show so several HAD to be done away with. In the previous "new" episode (about two weeks ago) Bates was killed by Mr. Chang who was in turn killed by Kyle. Robin (a worthless character for a long time now) was sent to live with the Chicago underground (I wonder if their leader is named "Big Julie?") and is escorted there by Tyler (one of the better characters in the show, I was surprised that they had him go). I agree with you about some of the problems of the show. The biggest problem I see with it is that they are working too hard to make each episode a complete story. By doing this they are turning into a formula series: "Aliens get new weapon that can destroy the resistance. Donovan (or some other token hunk) goes on the mothership (they might as well install a revolving door on the mothership and put out the welcome mat considering how often the resistance is on it) destroy the weapon (or kidnap the person that CAN destroy the weapon) and Diana curses them. For reasons that I cannot explain, I still find myself watching this show. I think that part of it is that I enjoy seeing ANY Science Fiction on the tube, and the other part is that occasionally some interesting things happen. I hope this helps get you up to date. "Bones, while you are up, would you get me a gingerale?" "Damnit Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a waiter!" OZ seismo!rlgvax!oz ------------------------------ From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian) Subject: Re: Battlestar Galaxitive Date: 9 Feb 85 03:03:01 GMT ...Or Rattletrap Galactica, ad nausium... Hey, it wasn't *that* bad. I thought several of the segments showed some real imagination. Two things killed the show for me: Budget problems, which with Larson means 'use the same film over and over and...'. It didn't work for Irwin Allen, and it really detracted from the show. The other serious mistake was 'Galactica 1980'. Ugh. Casting, plots... There was exactly one passable segment. Larson should have either let Galactica die a noble death, or took up the story in the FAR future, (say 4 generations) with a completely new cast and MORE MONEY! The plot still has possibilities, with the right touch... Now, Buck Rogers and (by the way) Knight Rider, are quite a different story. Retch! Gag! Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz (jagardner) Subject: The Prisoner Date: 8 Feb 85 20:13:10 GMT People who are interested in the Prisoner may be interested in "The Prisoner Puzzle", a booklet put together by TVOntario (Ontario's equivalent of PBS) when they were showing the series five or six years ago. In those days, TVO had to go out of its way to prove that entertaining shows like the Prisoner were also educational, since TVO's mandate is to provide _educational_ TV that doesn't compete with commercial television. At any rate, they followed each show with a discussion of the episode's major themes, pointed out nifty pieces of symbolism the viewer might have missed, and so on. It got a little pompous, but it had good moments. The booklet could be obtained at that time (and maybe now, for all I know) by writing to TVOntario, Customer Relations Dept. in Toronto. You should be able to get the address from a phone book -- most major libraries in Canada carry U.S. phone books, so U.S. libraries may have Toronto phone books. (Maybe I'm being naive.) Anyway, the booklet contained a description and discussion of all 17 episodes, in the order that they originally aired, plus an interview with Patrick McGoohan, and other neat stuff. By the way, I object to the statement made on the net that the Prisoner is not SF. The episode "A, B, or C", for example, contains "dream-monitoring" equipment to see if Number 6 lets down his guard when he's asleep (three guesses whether he does). Much of the series IS more down-to-earth, of course, but they didn't blink an eye at departures from reality. While we're on the subject of the Prisoner, I should point out that it is a direct continuation of a series that aired as "Danger Man" in Britain, and as "Secret Agent" in the U.S. (Remember the big hit song, "Secret Agent Man", that was its theme?) In the last episode, the secret agent (played by McGoohan) resigns from the agency because he disapproves of what they did to a fellow agent who may or may not have defected. The lead-in to the Prisoner is obvious. I might also point out that the secret agent was never called by his real name; he had a cover identity that they used most of the time, but they made it clear that it was only a cover. As the theme song said, "They've given you a number and taken 'way your name." Also, there were a few Prisoner paperbacks published a number of years ago, in much the same style as the Man from UNCLE paperbacks people may remember. I've read one, by David Gerrold, I believe (the famous tribbler). In it, Number 6 and a romantic interest (a woman prisoner who may or may not be working for Village authorities) stage a production of Shakespeare's "Measure for Measure" as a cover for an escape attempt. An odd little book, with the same sort of elegant paranoia of the show. Jim Gardner University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Feb 85 14:56:19 EST From: Andrew Malis Subject: The Prisoner's village The Prisoner's village is actually a resort in Wales. It is the Hotel Portmeirion, in Penrhyndeudraeth, Wales. It is credited at the end of (at least) the final show, and it was included in an article about Wales several years ago in Travel & Leisure (I think I have it saved somewhere, but it would take me a while to dig it out). If you want to find it on a map, it is on Tremadoc Bay, and is close to Portmadoc. I've always wanted to visit there ever since I saw the original broadcasts of the show, but have never made it, even though I have been to Wales (so close, and yet so far). Unfortunately, I heard that they had a major fire several years ago, but I think they rebuilt and restored the place. I would be interested in hearing from anyone reading this that has actually be there. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 17:38 CDT From: pduff To: PHYSICS@sri-unix.ARPA Subject: Einstein's Time Capsule? I came across an item somewhere about Albert Einstein having left a time capsule with instructions for it to be opened 25 (?) years after his death. Can anyone confirm its existence? Was it unsealed in 1984? What was inside? There might be notes concerning interesting theories or speculations which he chose not to make public while he was alive, or perhaps his predictions of what would develop from his ideas. regards, Patrick Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1905 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) e ** (pi * i) = (cos pi) + (sin pi) * i = -1 ;Think about it ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Feb 85 0037-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #51 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 51 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh (2 msgs) & Davidson, Films - Threads, Television - Quark (2 msgs) & The Prisoner (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ewok@ucbvax.ARPA (Lisa Rodgin) Subject: C.J.Cherryh books Date: 9 Feb 85 06:48:37 GMT Could someone please give me a list of the books in any/all series by C.J. Cherryh in order? I would like to read some of her books, but I have not been able to figure out what book to read first.... ------------------------------ From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang) Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh books Date: 10 Feb 85 17:16:04 GMT > Could someone please give me a list of the books in > any/all series by C.J. Cherryh in order? I would like to read some > of her books, but I have not been able to figure out what book to > read first.... Why don't you try _Downbelow Station_ and _40,000 in Gehanna_. Downbelow Station was very well written and I recommend it highly. -eli Eli Liang University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: "Gor" Date: 8 Feb 85 10:31:09 GMT To make this posting more worthwhile for people bored by male sadism and female masochism, here's a little game... I have two copies of Avram Davidson's MUTINY IN SPACE, one printed in 1964 (price: 50 cents, a miracle like unto the legendary cup of coffee) and one printed in 1974 (95 cents... what is this nation coming to?). Davidson clearly had little control over the book; the title was changed from VALENTINE'S PLANET, and the blurbs are amazingly unrepresentative of the contents. You may be amused to observe the manner in which the later blurb improves on the earlier one: 1964 'Pirates of the spaceways -- and a planet ripe for plunder' 'MAROONED on an unknown planet, the PERSEPHONE's officers moved warily through the forest. They had escaped the mutineers, but they knew there was danger ahead ... but what was it? The answer came in a howl of fury and a charge by grotesque armed figures an army of death-dealing women!' 1974 'A SCIENCE FICTION BLOCKBUSTER! Castaways of the universe marooned on a lost planet of war-crazed females!' 'Rond and his crew had been left to die slowly on an unknown planet. As they moved warily through the alien forest they heard the eerie rhythms coming toward them. Then they saw the grotesque figures[:] A BIZARRE ARMY OF SCREAMING WOMEN! Masked, brandishing gleaming swords [um...], rattling their terrible death drums, howling with the fury of some primitive blood lust -- and they were attacking! As the scarlet waves of growling women approached, Rond and his men began to run -- back into the dark forest of looming horror...' Needless to say this scene has a somewhat different emphasis in the book. (The story is basically a re-telling of the Conquistadores vs. the Indians, with a few variations, such as making the 'Indian' side be a Japanese-style samurai culture run by women. Not Davidson's best effort by any means...) Do other folks have 'Kilgore Trout'-type blurbs they'd care to share? Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (leeper) Subject: THREADS Date: 9 Feb 85 22:54:43 GMT THREADS A film review by Mark R. Leeper One of the most frightening films I ever remember seeing is Peter Watkins's Oscar-winning short, THE WAR GAME, which includes some very believable and realistic footage of Britain during and after a nuclear war. We have seen a lot of dramatizations of the effects of nuclear war over the past years or so, including the much bally-hooed THE DAY AFTER. They are all very good at underscoring what a pity it would be to be in a nuclear war. The films we see almost entirely ignore any but the luckiest 5% of the population. They show people whose lives are disrupted and who may eventually die from the effects of the bomb. There is never any mention of things like fire-storms or triage or the millions painfully maimed by the attack. And, incidentally, now that we have conveniently forgotten how terrible nuclear war is, all of a sudden it is once more "thinkable." Now the BBC--who footed the bill for THE WAR GAME but decided it was too frightening to show--has made THREADS, a film about nuclear war that covers some of the same ground. THREADS is sort of a British DAY AFTER with some of the effective moments of THE WAR GAME thrown in. It falls short of THE WAR GAME in several important ways--I'll get to those later--but it is by far the second best film depiction of nuclear war I can remember seeing. Now my measure of quality is for the most part accuracy. TESTAMENT was a very well-made film, beautifully directed with great insights into the characters. But while those characters were believable, the situation was not. The producers failed to do their homework. The characters in THREADS are not nearly as well-developed, but most of what was wrong with THREADS were omissions, not outright inaccuracies. It presents a genuinely possible scenario of nuclear war and its aftermath. Its estimations of the impact of nuclear winter are on the light side, but not entirely outside the range of scientific opinion. Where THREADS falls short of THE WAR GAME is simply that it conveys less information and pulls its punches a bit more. In THREADS we see what is happening and get a few words on the screen explaining it. THE WAR GAME had a dispassionate narrator explaining what was happening. Instead of seeing fires, the narrator explained the nature and scope of a firestorm so that you know what you are seeing is not an isolated fire, but part of a huge mire measured in square miles. In some ways THREADS does tell more than THE WAR GAME, just by virtue of the fact that it has more recent information and that it is longer, so can show more of the aftermath. But for THREADS to fall so close in quality to what I obviously use as the yardstick for nuclear war films, I have to rate THREADS high. Give it a +2 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!acsgjjp@topaz (Jim Poltrone) Subject: Re: Quark Date: 9 Feb 85 20:11:38 GMT > I believe Buck Henry was one of those who thought up the show with > Richard Benjamin. I have a vague memory of one or both of them > talking about it as an upcoming show on another show, maybe SNL or > Johnny Carson. I believe Sue's right. Last month, I was at a friend's house watching some videotapes that someone else had brought, and on one of them was "Quark". (I remember the show because I have the theme on audio tape. By the way, someone else said that the Quark theme was the Star Trek theme backwards. Can anyone with a reel-to-reel confirm this?) I was surprised when I saw "Created by Buck Henry" in the episode's opening titles. Also, I remember Buck Henry making many guest appearances on SNL (remember Uncle Roy?). Also, I believe Richard Benjamin (and his wife, Paula Prentiss) were the guests at one time or another. Did she (Paula) ever appear on "Quark"? And whatever happened to the Bettys? "The Galaxy, ad infinitum!" "Is there liver in reality?" Jim Poltrone (a/k/a Poltr1, the Last of the Raster Blasters) uucp: [decvax,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!acsgjjp ARPAnet, CSnet: acsgjjp%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY BITNET: ACSGJJP@SUNYABVA ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 85 00:13:17 PST Subject: Quark Again I've allways loved the show as a very enjoyable example of television. But it seems you have forgotton my favorite player: ERGO, THE PLASTIC PET! Who eats 'Plasto's - Plastic food for Plastic pets. Never will forget the 'Star Notes' by the captain as he keeps one eye on his always hungry pet. And then there's the Ol' Doc - Jean/Gean attacks: "Doc, Just look at this," in a strong, voice. "What is it Jean?" "My, neadlepoint!" "Captain!, I'm going to kill him!" But what is all the reminiscing? I have the tapes. Just checked with my friends (they're identical twins) and they have tentativly agreed to allow me to copy their collection. Now, if anyone is interested, contact me at one of the following addresses. I think the price will be an extra tape of good quality. --Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro bang!crash!victoro@nosc sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd USNail: c/o STAR-San Diego Post Awful Box 15373 Sandy Eggo, Ca. 92115 ------------------------------ From: unm-cvax!cs2532aa@topaz Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 9 Feb 85 09:54:08 GMT >> The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER, the >> balloon-like entity which guards the perimeter of the village. >> The way I see it, they needed a believable way to keep the very >> clever No. 6 from escaping the island, but is this really >> believeable? Or am I being unreasonably picky? >> Any thoughts on this? > > About ROVER. I find him silly. Many times you can see the string > pulling him along the water, but I don't mind. When you love a > show you take a lot of things as givens. ROVER could have been > done more convinsingly, but such is life in the Village. I haven't spotted the wires on Rover yet, but then I'm not really looking for them either (reminds me of when STAR WARS was on CBS and you could see all the matte lines and little squares of film where they inserted the TIE fighters and X-Wings...but thats another flame for another newsgroup...). Since The Prisoner is really a "people" show as opposed to a "hardware" show, any little things that I might have trouble believing in (like Rover, all those invisible cameras that are everywhere and seem to follow folks around without them noticing [except for Number Six, of course], the mind control techniques used in "A, B, and C"... all these things are ignored by my conscious mind. I'm too wrapped up in the story to notice! > I hope they tell us who #1 is at the end of the series, or at > least get him rescued. Q: Any thought as to where the Village > really is? Not that many places can have the kind of climate they > do (rarely rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc. > Whaddya think? The last episode of the series is absolutely fantastic. No matter what you want to see, you probably won't be disappointed. The ending has some amazing twists that have kept people puzzling over them since the series was first shown. As for where the Village is, my vote is for somewhere in Greece. In an early episode of "Danger Man" (known in the U.S. as "Secret Agent"), the Patrick McGoohan character is sent to Greece to try and keep a British agent from "selling out". One of the locations looked EXACTLY like the area where the Village is, in fact, it looked just like a shot of the beach in front of the Village. Coincidence? Maybe...you never know. At the end of that episode, when Drake (McGoohan's character) finds out that his bosses lied to him in order to get the other agent back, and that the agent was to be arrested despite Drake's promises to the contrary, I realized just why he resigned!! If I worked for a bunch of guys like that, I'd jump ship too! Be Seeing You, .rne. Real World: Ernie Longmire 311 Don St. SE Los Lunas, NM 87031-9405 UUCP: {{purdue,cmcl2,ihnp4}!lanl,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa GalactiNet: 1/MkyWy/r9.844-T00.05'24"-S206.28'49" /3/U.S.AT&T/5058655516 ------------------------------ From: cord!ggr@topaz (Guy Riddle) Subject: What is "The Prisoner"? / Numerology Date: 10 Feb 85 17:20:35 GMT > One thing I always felt was a bit "off" in THE PRISONER: With a > number like "6", he should have been high in the ruling heirarchy, > with duties to perform in the running of the Village, and > subordinates under his control, and for whom he should be > responsible. This doesn't jibe with the reason for him being put > in there. I recall him being pressured to take part in certain > Village activities, and otherwise "play his role", which he > resisted. Having an uncooperative low-numbered person would put a > crimp (cramp?) in the functioning of the Village. I always thought > it would have been better if he had been "Number 47" or "Number > 238" or something, instead of "Number 6". > Will Martin Ah, but that was part of the challenge. Number Six had to "discover who are the prisoners and who the warders". It would have been too easy if one were assured that all people with numbers < N were on the side running the Village -- no one would trust them. [cf. the episode titled "It's Your Move" for Number Six's approach to this question.] However, the magnitude of the number did relate, in a broad way, to how important the person was, regardless of which side they were on. If you met Number 113B (there was one, really) you knew he was a pretty small fish, and key figures had numbers like 8, 12, and 24. But to confound any rule you might make up, there were those characters who didn't go by their numbers, if they had any, such as The Professor, the Colonel, Alison, Roland Walter Dutton, and, of course the Butler. Guy Riddle AT&T Bell Laboratories, New Jersey ggr.btl@csnet-relay.ARPA ihnp4!ggr ------------------------------ From: cord!ggr@topaz (Guy Riddle) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 10 Feb 85 17:40:10 GMT > About ROVER. I find him silly. Many times you can see the string > pulling him along the water, but I don't mind. When you love a > show you take a lot of things as givens. ROVER could have been > done more convinsingly, but such is life in the Village. I hope > they tell us who >1 is at the end of the series, or at least get > him rescued. Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is? > Not that many places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely > rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc. Whaddya think? > > "I am a MAN, not a number!!" -Number Six > > -Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss Actually they did build a mechanical Rover contraption, but it rolled over and died when they started filming. The Rover they did use was a weather balloon, with shots of a Lava Lite (do they still make them?) to show Rover's emergence from the depths of the Sea. I actually like Rover -- it was cute and liked to cuddle. You do find out who Number One is, in the last episode of course. Or maybe he really isn't Number One. You'll have to make up your own mind after seeing it -- you don't expect an unambiguous ending, do you? The outdoor scenes of the Village were filmed in Wales, at a resort hotel called the Portmeiron (if I remember correctly). Watch the credits for the final episode -- it's listed there. And the most frequent version of the quote is "I'm not a number, I'm a Free Man!". Guy Riddle AT&T Bell Laboratories, New Jersey ggr.btl@csnet-relay.ARPA ihnp4!ggr ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Feb 85 1030-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #52 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 52 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE PRISONER ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Feb 85 23:39:04 EST From: Kevin.Dowling@CMU-RI-ROVER Subject: The Prisoner There has been discussion of the series The Prisoner over the past several weeks mirroring a similar discussion several years ago on SF-lovers. In fact it took place in the fall of 1980. Over the years many fan-clubs or "cults" (from the media) sprang up when the series was run in the early and late 1970's on television. Fanzines and newsletters like Rover, The Green Dome, No. 6, The Prisoner Newsletter, in addition to many fanzines of the times covering the series. In England there were probably many such organizations "Six of One Club" being one of the largest. Rover was a SIG of Mensa and I don't know if any of these 'zines are still published. (With only 17 episodes you can only publish so much!) Some background on the show; this is from an English magazine called PrimeTime that I found in an SF/comix shop, I've condensed and paraphrased some of the content. There is quite a bit of detail I left out too for the sake of brevity. On Sunday 4 February 1968 several million viewers tuned in to Fall Out, the 17th and final episode of The Prisoner. Written, directed and coproduced by its star Patrick McGoohan, the episode had been completed at the eleventh hour and was expected to answer a series of important questions set up by the previous 16 films. A final narrative resolution was eagerly awaited by a viewing public who had been intrigued, mystified, confused, and excited by a unique mixture of Danger Man meets Kafka in Alice in Wonderland. [Danger Man was renamed Secret Agent Man for the US market] Ralph Smart's creation Danger Man was enjoying enormous success in the mid-sixties. It had developed from the half-hour format to an hour-long show and McGoohan, in the role of John Drake, was possibly ITC's most popular 'star', with Roger Moore as The Saint in close second place. It was precisely at this time, when confidence in the series' continued popularity resulted in producing the first colour programmes in Britain that McGoohan resigned. Danger Man was finished. Possible contractual obligations to ITC, Lew Grade's desire to keep a valuable asset, and McGoohan's own determination to 'hook' Grade with a project of his own, led the search for a new vehicle for McGoohan. The demise of Danger Man would mean the loss of jobs for those working on the series. It was George Markstein, then story editor of the series who, aided by his desire to continue working, produced the initial idea of The Prisoner. From his own experiences working for British Intelligence, Markstein knew that institutions existed for the housing of ex-spies; that those who 'knew too much' could never be allowed freedom, even in retirement, and that highly organised and sophisticated programmes of systematic brainwashing were commonplace. It was called 'disorientation' and would provide the basis of a new programme. Perhaps the most ingenious aspect of Markstein's original use of the idea was that it exploited an actual situation; McGoohan was, in televison and in real terms, about to become a retired secret agent. The idea of building a series around an agent (John Drake?) who resigns for reasons of his own, possibly at the height of his career (McGoohan) was unique in its exploitation of an established television character and persona. The Prisoner would inevitably be informed by Danger Man, capitalising on the latter's success and investing itself with a sense of pre-existing history from another time. However, John Drake, by name the property of Ralph Smart, could have proved a costly inclusion in copyright terms. The solution was a number. No. 6. Markstein in a sense was the architect of The Prisoner. The idea was simple; a man resigns from secret work, is abducted by persons unknown and finds himself in a strange Kafkaesque environment, not unpleasant in itself but all powerful. His captors want to know why he resigned. He wants to know who they are and most importantly, the identity of the man at the top, No. 1. His fellow prisoners are also ex-agents of various kinds who have succumbed to extreme but subtle coercion. Questions: Who are the prisoners and who are the warders? Will he escape? Can he maintain a strength of will where others have failed? Will he ever discover which power or individual is behind such an elaborate exercise? Why did he resign? In short, The Prisoner was conceived as a spy thriller consciously constructed around more 'profound' notions of the individual versus the system, personal freedom and personal prisons. It was this double edge of action spy thriller and the more serious and self-evident thematic concerns which signaled The Prisoner's ambitions (or pretensions) and set it apart from other ITC products like The Avengers, The Saint, and Man in a Suitcase. Markstein then began to dress his skeleton with several elements which contributed to the 'otherness' of The Prisoner; The location was simply called The Village; people were known only by number; money was replaced by an efficient credit card system of 'units'; 24-hour video camera surveillance of every inch of The Village prevented secrecy of any kind; sophisticated brainwashing, usually achieved in combination with hallucinatory drugs, was frequently employed. A silent dwarf butler wandered through the stories; A new No. 2 appeared regularly; ultimate power was concealed. Some preliminary sketches of interiors were added and McGoohan added photographs of the Welsh Italianate hotel village Portmerion, where he had previously worked on location for an early Danger Man. Lew Grade made an attempt to convince McGoohan to continue with Danger Man before yielding to the new project, which he confessed was beyond his comprehension but was 'so crazy' it might just work. The script for the first episode, Arrival, was written by Markstein with assistance from McGoohan. It was at this point that McGoohan contibuted particular detail to The Prisoner. His ideas were primarily concerned with the 'look' of the new series at this stage. His idea about Portmerion was a crucial one, but then came the piped blazers worn by all Village inhabitants, the symbol of the penny farthing bike and many other small detail, vital elements in sealing The Prisoner's image of 'otherness'; a vision of malevolent pantomine. The mysterious and quasi-symbolism of the programmes and their bizarre visual realisations contributed greatly to The Prisoner's initial (and lasting) imapact. Jack Shampan, who had prepared the original sketches at treatment stage, was now official art director. His set's for No. 2's inner sanctum and the Village Control Room are similarly impressive in their 'oddness' and 'modernity'. His own contributions included mini moke taxis, cordless telephones, information stands etc. McGoohan increasingly assumed control of the direction the series was going. What seems to have been McGoohan's rapidly developing 'vision' about The Prisoner ran contrary to that of script editor George Markstein, and perhaps many others. Markstein began to sense that his structure was being eroded and consequently that the roof was in danger of falling in. The balance of spy thriller and allegory was tipping towards the latter and he, like the new No. 2 in each episode, was becoming of less importance to an emerging No. 1. According to Markstein Many Happy Returns represents how he envisioned a second season of The Prisoner developing; No. 6 escapes to the outside world, only to find that 'they' are always there. The Prisoner going global may or may not seem difficult to imagine in the light of how the first series finally chose to resolve the story with extra episodes. After the first season of 13 episodes some re-negotiations took place between Everyman Films and ITC. It was jointly decided that rather than produce and season of 13 films after a break that Everyman should produce another 4 episodes to add to the existing material and aim for one season of 17 episodes and an American sale. Do Not Forsake Me O My Darling did not feature either Portmerion or McGoohan who was off filming Ice Station Zebra. Then came two padding episodes produced and directed by Tomblin, these episodes have been compared to Bonanza and The Avengers, respectively. These are also strangely unsettling when viewed in the flow of episodes due to their complete disruption of expectation. The final episode Fall Out was finished just in time for it's scheduled transmission date. McGoohan through necessity and design decided to abandon 'reason' and explanation and opt for the symbolic ending. The immediate result of the Fall Out transmission was, predictably, disaster. Switchboards were jammed; An ATV Correspondent produced a 'Plain Man's Guide to The Prisoner' for dispatch to viewers who had written asking for an explanation, some having watched the series for 17 weeks, only to be slapped in the face. The letter's page of the Times was crammed with complaints of the 'we've been conned' kind and ITC must have wondered how foreign sales were going to fare. McGoohan went into hiding and was soon to leave the country. It's all there, if in somewhat simplified terms: discussion of political manipulation, the 'inner' person, social criticism, fantasy and myth. The programmes employed mythological allegory, nursery rhymes, archetypes and symbols as vehicles for such discussions. Finally but crucially, all roads led to a humanist plea for the individual's right to be an individual; a timeless 'message' which continues to elicit substantial and continued support. nivek Arpanet: nivek@cmu-ri-rover Bell: (412) 578-8830 USmail: Robotics Institute CMU Schenley Park Pgh, PA 15213 ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!darrelj@topaz (Darrel VanBuer) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 9 Feb 85 16:15:04 GMT The Prisoner was actually filmed at the Hotel Portmerion in Wales (so in some sense, that's where the village is, or could be). Rover was something of an accident. It was originally envisioned (and built) as a robot/machine-like entity. Unfortunately their machine proved to be very cranky, especially in water. It was out of commission and they had to film something, when they happened to see these weather balloons laying about... Darrel J. Van Buer, PhD System Development Corp. 2500 Colorado Ave Santa Monica, CA 90406 (213)820-4111 x5449 {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,orstcs,sdcsvax,ucla-cs,akgua} !sdcrdcf!darrelj VANBUER@USC-ECL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: dciem!reid@topaz (Reid Ellis) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 9 Feb 85 05:39:38 GMT [Michael Weiss writes] >Q: Any thought as to where the Village really is? Not that many >places can have the kind of climate they do (rarely rains, never >cold), with a bay and mountains, etc. Whaddya think? The Village scenes were shot in a town named Port Marion in southern England. Our family visited there a few years ago. It is a tourist attraction due to its definite air of unreality. A lot of the buildings are about 2 feet thick so that you open the front door and walk right through out the back. There is even a statue there dedicated to the summer of some year [1965?] just because it was a really nice summer. If you are ever in the area, plan a visit. You can eat in a restaurant that overlooks the beach where #6 wrote "Help me!" in the sand in giant letters. Reid Ellis {allegra,decvax,duke,floyd,linus}!utzoo!dciem!reid ------------------------------ From: convexs!ayers@topaz Subject: Re: Re: What is "The Prisoner"? Date: 7 Feb 85 20:13:00 GMT An important point: There were many hints (but no solid clues) that the Village was run by a) the "ememy" b) the "company" c) the british secret service d) all or none of the above Of course, the ending explained it all (or did it?)... blues, II ------------------------------ From: ratex!mck@topaz (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan) Subject: The Prisoner -- One Number's Opinion Date: 8 Feb 85 03:21:35 GMT Most of the *Prisoner* episodes were good; two were bad (the mind- swapping episode and the one where he causes a computer to blow-up by asking it a vacuous question). One episode was just simply BRILLIANT!!! The episode where they used Jungian symbolism (7?) was damned-near PERFECT!!! You don't have to accept Jungian philosophy (I generally don't) to appreciate it. By the way, does anybody out there have any idea where I might buy one of the identifying buttons from the series -- and about how much it would cost? Be seeing you, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan Number 288-66-7627 ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz (Brad Templeton) Subject: The Prisoner - Who is #1? MASSIVE SPOILER Date: 10 Feb 85 05:00:00 GMT They reveal who #1 is in every episode, right at the beginning. "I am the new number two." "Who is number one?" "You are, number six!" Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 85 10:35:42 PST (Monday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Cc: Poskanzer.SV@XEROX.ARPA (SmegmaLord), marshall@UCB-ARPA.ARPA > The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER About ROVER. > I find him silly. Arrrrg! I LOVES ROVER! He's the best part of the whole series. A local PBS station did a Patrick McGoohan (sp?) interview. Good ol' #6 explained the genesis of Rover. It seems that the original Rover (Rover Prime) was a robot, a mechanical dog-like creature on treads (shades of K-9??). But the first episode required Rover to "swim" in the sea. Needless to say, Rover Prime shorted out and expired with a puff of smoke. So #6 and the producer were standing on the beach, trying to decide what to do about Rover, when #6 notice a weather balloon floating above a weather station that was close-by the shooting location. I could just see the lightbulb light up over his head! So ROVER SECUNDUS was born. I think it was an excellent idea. That bouncing spheroid seemed so innocent, so cute looking ... but what a deception! ROVER, being so simple and featureless, allowed one's imagination to expand at the horror and malevolence that lurked within its gaseous core. If I saw a two meter diameter blob bouncing down the street ROARING towards me, I'd be scared pissless! Sigh ... this is the result of the Star Wars mentality ... everything's gotta be gee-whiz-flash-bang-hi-rez-sim-com-3D or else it's "silly". Is there no room left for the imagination? If you are unimpressed by Rover Secundus, don't bother reading Lovecraft. You'll be hopelessly bored. [I think Rover would fit quite nicely into the Cthulhu Mythos, don't you?] Perry Abdul Alhazr'd "Who is Number One?" "You are Number Six ..." ------------------------------ From: hou5h!mgh@topaz (Marcus Hand) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 11 Feb 85 15:51:36 GMT The village used in the prisoner is in Cornwall, the southwestern-most county of England where its always damp, rarely snows except on the moors and generally has some pretty lush and interesting vegetation. The actual village's name escapes me at present, so I'll look on a map when I get home and see if I remember the name. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Feb 85 1045-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #53 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 53 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Delany & Silverberg, Films - The Worst SF Movie (5 msgs) & Star Trek IV (2 msgs), Television - The Prisoner (2 msgs) & Old TV Shows ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gitpyr!robert@topaz (Robert Viduya) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 10 Feb 85 13:02:21 GMT > Anyone got any opinions on Piers Anthony? I think he's great. > His best work is done with the Xanth series. Anybody have an up > to the day list of his works? I just finished reading his Xanth series last month and I would have to say it was one of the better science-fiction/fantasy series I've read in a while. He's got quite an imagination and his sense of humor (levity?) isn't bad (I especially liked 'Dragon on a Pedestal' in this respect; Princess Ivy was great in her role as the 'innocent manipulator'). I do have one gripe about the series. Anthony listened too much to his readers and went out of his way to stick their puns into his stories (especially the later books). I felt they were getting a little out of hand. Robert Viduya Georgia Institute of Technology {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp} !gatech!gitpyr!robert {rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!robert ------------------------------ Date: Mon Feb 11 20:49:06 1985 From: mcb%lll-tis.ARPA@lll-tis (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Delany's STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND Delany, Samuel R. STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND. (Bantam, December 1984, hc, 368 pp., $16.95. ISBN 0-553-05053-2.) There have always been two Delanys: the one that is fascinated by communications theory, linguistics, semiotics, and high technology; and the one obsessed with slavery, rough sex, and degradation. His books based on these themes and images have tended to fall into one category or the other: BABEL-17, NOVA, and TRITON being typical of the former and DHALGREN and most of TALES OF NEVERYON the latter. In STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND Delany's two worlds blend in a forceful and compelling manner. Set in a universe of dazzling information technologies and designed environments, the novel begins with a slave who, having submitted to psychosurgery, is much like a blank slate upon whom the intricacies and intrigues of the book can be written. Delany shifts gears quickly to develop the interstellar culture by introducing Marq Dyeth, an "industrial diplomat" (that's a combination trade emissary, problem solver, and general consultant) and Marq's home on the planet Velm. This is a universe populated by humans and an alien race (described visually only in tantalizing nuggets) with whom humans have lived in cooperation for many generations. In this society, the words "she" and "her" describe sentients of both races and both genders; "he" and "him" have quite a different meaning entirely! The information culture on Marq's home planet is full of technological surprises (Delany has invented some unique replacements for encyclopedia and telephone) and Byzantine intrigues. On myriads of planets, proponents of two rival models for social and cultural development clash and contend for political and economic ascendancy; the flow of information between societies is controlled by an organization called the Web, sort of a meta-government with apparently unlimited resources. Cultural institutions, both alien and human, are put forth by Delany, shaken as if inside a gift box, examined, and dissected. Rat Korga, the slave, whose life consisted of rude meals, hovels, excrement, and rough sex, is thrust by events into the flashing-lights-and-computer-hookup world of the Web and its friends and enemies and collaborators and betrayers. Marq Dyeth, comfortable among his family (and what a family it is!) and home, has learned things that he may not wish to have learned, about the political realities of the civilization and about friends, new and old. As a comedy of manners, STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND is unassailable, though the manners and institutions dealt with are fictional and fanciful; as a technological sf novel it is among the best, in pure terms of speculation and invention. The academic and intellectual Delany supervenes over the dark and sordid one, so the novel is cerebral rather than visceral. But Delany could easily be the finest prose stylist writing in English today, inside or outside the sf genre. His language never fails to sparkle: in many passages, each word seems chosen like a crystal that, when struck exactly, will resonate with a clarity of tone and harmonic that suggest meanings and shadows of meaning only hinted at when the phrase is first read. Yes, it's THAT good. STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND is one of those rare books without a flaw or blemish. Had I been the editor, I would not have been able to find a single word to change or a passage that I'd refer to the author for clarification. However, not every such book is worthy of the praise that this one deserves; some are held back by their internal limitations. Not so here. Only an abject failure in THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES, OF CITIES, which will finish the tale begun in STARS IN MY POCKET, could possibly lessen Mr. Delany's achievement. Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-tis.ARPA {akgua,ihnp4,sun}!idi!lll-tis!mcb ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Majipoor Chronicles Reply-to: "Alastair Milne" Date: 10 Feb 85 01:38:28 PST (Sun) From: Alastair Milne > Has anyone out there read the "Majipoor Chronicles", by Robert > Silverberg? There are three books (so far?) in the series.. > 1: "Lord Valentine's Castle" > 2: "The Majipoor Chronicles" > 3: "Valentine Pontifex" > I think these books were very imaginative and entertaining. My > favorite authors are Jack C. Chalker, Robert Silverberg, Juanita > Coulson, Jose' Farmer("Riverworld"), Andre Norton, and Ray > Bradbury. > > My selections for the best SF movies are(not in order of > preference): Close Encounters of the Third Kind, E.T., Star Wars > and (though more on the fantasy side) Raiders of the Lost Ark. > Mark Rand (Tigqc356@Cunyvm) I have indeed read "Majipoor Chronicles", and was very impressed with the stories. One comes to understand Majipoor much better for taking a brief walk through its history. Personally I liked it better than "Lord Valentine's Castle", though my best friend feels the opposite. I have also ready the 3rd one, "Valentine Pontifex", and enjoyed it greatly. I'm not sure, though, whether all the things that needed explaining actually were explained. But even if they didn't (I don't remember just now), I found the ending very satisfying. And it left me wanting more. My list of favourite authors has to start with Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke, though not necessarily in that order. After that, the list varies with the books considered. Ursula K. LeGuin; Robert Silverberg; Robert Heinlein (depending on which book); Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle as a team; several others of lesser attraction. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: unc!walker@topaz (Douglas Walker) Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made Date: 8 Feb 85 19:57:56 GMT There are at least three versions of Day of the Triffids that I have heard of. Two are relatively recent - late 70's - and the other is much older. I saw the original one, and I thought it stunk. The acting was terrible, the plot was abominable, and the 'special' effects were unmentionable. I haven't seen the newer releases, but with that plot, there's only so far they can go. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 04:02:34 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes and Repo Man Well Joe, I'm afraid that you offended my favorite unfavored film. That means either your interpretation is wrong or I'm just plain nuts. I suspect it is the latter. I though AotKT was wonderfully bad. Watching the movie, I get the very distinct impression that it was supposed to be bad. It looked like it was a spoof on SF movies. I really enjoyed it, but many people have said that I have a bizarre sense of humor. Oh well... I have seen Repo Man, so you and your friends are not alone. This one also seemed to be a movie that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. I thought the first third and last third were quite good, but it severely lagged in the middle (I caught myself looking at my watch). There was alot of subtle humor (especially visual), which means if you enjoyed it once, you should probably go see it a few more times. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 11 Feb 1985 12:17-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Worst SF movies BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS was a SF attempt to do The Magnificent Seven in SF. IT WAS TERRIBLE. They even went so far as to get Robert Vaughn in it in the same roll he played in the western (well just about). This movie had nothing going for it at all. A good example of a good plot spoiled by someone trying to make a fast buck. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 12:36:36 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible) > Very little actually. In one scene in "Fame", two of the students > from the School of the Performing Arts go to a New York theater to > see "The Rocky Horror Picture Show." I just saw Fame for the second time (the first in the theater when it first came out) on it's TV debut. The movie was hacked up to leave some scenes out (RUINED for TELEVISION) and the dialog was worked over. I don't recall what happened in the uncut version, but it was really stupid watching a theatre full of RHPS fans yelling "Idiot" at Brent. Idiot? -Ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 16:43 EST From: Mills@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: RE Bad Movies As far as movies that caught me by surprise by their awfulness, The Incredible Melting Man is unsurpassed. I don't remember anything about the people responsible for this or when it was originally released. I saw it at one of the annual Orsen Wells Sci-Fi Film festivals in Cambridge about 3 years ago. To give you an idea of the quality of this event they will not release the film list before they sell the tickets. The basic plot was some Astrounauts get iradiated or something near the rings of Saturn. After returning, one of the astronauts starts "melting" and becomes a totally homicidal monster. The special effects of his melting looked like they covered the actor with peanut-butter and jelly. The more he melted the more the actor hunched over. The peanut-butter monster procedes to mutilate the entire cast introduced up to this point by about halfway thru the movie. Undaunted by this, a seemingly endless stream of pointless characters are introduced for no other reason than to provide more targets for the monster. The agony finally ends with the monster deflating into a big messy puddle which a janitor mops up with no questions. The only pleasure with this film was joining in with the rest of the audience chearing on the victims hoping that one of them would kill the monster and end the movie. John Mills ------------------------------ Date: 9 Feb 85 15:07:49 EST From: Lear@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Star Trek 4 Would anyone venture to guess what Star Trek IV will be about? Eliot Lear [Lear@RU-BLUE.ARPA] ------------------------------ From: cae780!gordon@topaz (Brian Gordon) Subject: Re: Star Trek 4 Date: 10 Feb 85 21:40:39 GMT LEAR@RU-BLUE.ARPA writes: >Would anyone venture to guess what Star Trek IV will be about? Can it be anything but "The Search For Spock's Luggage"? FROM: Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems USENET: {ucbvax, ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amd!cae780!gordon {nsc, resonex, qubix, hplabs}!cae780!gordon USNAIL: 1333 Bordeaux Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089 AT&T: (408)745-1440 ------------------------------ From: hou5g!jhc@topaz (Jonathan Clark) Subject: Actual location of "The Village" Date: 11 Feb 85 17:21:29 GMT Sorry to contradict, but the real location of The Village (ie where the series was shot) was in a place called Portmeirion, in North Wales (quite near Anglesey and Snowdonia). The place was originally built as a giant folly (hence the baroque combinations of architecture) and people actually live and work (mostly commute) there. I think that you have to pass a screening committee to be allowed to live there, and it is definitely only for the rich. You can visit it - it used to cost 4 pounds sterling to get in. Sometimes you can see pottery in flash gift shops labelled Portmeirion Pottery - it's the same place. I believe that they used the real-life inhabitants of Portmeirion as extras in the shooting of The Prisoner. Now - as to the fictional location - my vote goes for North Australia somewhere. Jonathan Clark [NAC]!hou5g!jhc ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: The Prisoner's village Date: 10 Feb 85 21:40:39 GMT Barry and I stayed at Portmeirion for two nights back in 1971. This thing started as one man's private project for old buildings he considered too beautiful to be torn down. He purchased them and had them moved to some land he owned in Wales. Later on he opened it to day-trippers, while allowing friends to stay over. Still later on it became a hotel. When we were there, you had to stay at least three nights to qualify for a cottage (the sort of place #6, etc.) were in. Others stayed in the hotel which had 18 rooms (numbered 1,2,3A,4,5,3,7...18). (No, I don't know whether there was originally a room #6.) It was a VERY posh place. The towels were hung on a heated rack. There was one room with a roaring fire and bound volumes of punch from the turn of the century. Each guestroom had a table assigned to it in the dining room, and you could order your meal ahead of time and specify the hour you'd be down --to find the first course there a few seconds after you sat down. One thing that amazed us was how much the cinematographers had rearranged the place's geography. For instance, the stone boat only has sand around it when the tide is out on the estuary. The green dome is only a few yards in diameter. It's not on the ocean but on a tidal estuary of a river. Stuff like that. We found the establishment VERY cooperative. When we left they booked us a taxi ride to the train station, then suggested a nice restaurant we could have dinner at that night in London -- and phoned in a reservation for us. And then explained this was normal hotel courtesy and there would be no charge for the calls. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 11 Feb 1985 12:22-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Commander Cody and Flash Gordon Hey, out there in netland, do any of you remember the 50's TV show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but as I recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time. There was also a TV show, Flash Gordon, not the Buster Crabbe thing, that was a half hour weekly show that lasted a year or two. Anyone recall, or have any info on who starred, produced, etc. any of these? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Feb 85 1111-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #54 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 54 Today's Topics: Books - May & Niven & Varley (2 msgs) & Story Request (2 msgs) & Recommendations & Secret Societies & Perry Rhodan, Films - Best SF Movie & Worst SF movie (3 msgs), Television - Quark (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Feb 85 10:13:33 PST (Monday) From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Mark Purtill Re: Julian May Re: Felice ***** SPOILER WARNING ***** I think the explanation of Felice's non-death was appropriate at the beginning of . There was too much going on in to put the explanation there. I don't think it would have had as great an impact. Also, since this scene was the opening of , all though the book I had a sneaking suspicion that Felice was going to show up and screw Aiken up good. It's possible Felice may end up uptime in the Milieu Trilogy - sounds like a good story. It's also possible there will be more stories downtime in the Pliocene for Felice to bother, although I would rather see more of May's universe than just the Pilocene. I think the Guderian device operated on some silly principle that allowed it to tap into a naturally occurring temporal annomally. This is why there could be only one time portal in the Milieu - there were no other temporal thingies to take advantage of. This is also why the device use so little energy - most of the energy came from the Earth's magnetic fields or something. Anyway, there's this tunnel through time, and the Guderian device just allows you to zip through, from either end. N'est pas? --Josh "Plus qu'il n'en faut." ------------------------------ From: uwvax!derek@topaz (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: Niven's Characters Date: 11 Feb 85 11:17:14 GMT > Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ... Well, not biological father. But say, if Bey was the "father" of Louis (as I had always presumed), there is a passage that confuses me. In the beginning of Ringworld they spend a great deal of time discussing the Long Shot, and its previous flight. It seems strange to me that Louis didn't know it was his own father that had made that flight (I think his name is even mentioned somewhere, but I couldn't find it). Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer? He is by far my favorite Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what happens to him. Derek Zahn @ wisconsin {allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ From: uvm-gen!cs102dbp@topaz (Damon Poole ) Subject: query Date: 10 Feb 85 02:21:50 GMT Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material other than: TITAN WIZARD DEMON Picnic on Nearside Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?) Millenium The Persistance of Vision The above list consists soley of _books_ or _collections_. Thanks, Damon B. Poole ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: re: query Date: 11 Feb 85 19:38:22 GMT >From: cs102dbp@uvm-gen.UUCP (Damon Poole ) > >Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material other than: > > TITAN > WIZARD > DEMON > Picnic on Nearside > Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?) > Millenium > The Persistance of Vision The only one you've left out that I know of is _The Barbie Murders_. It's up to his usual standard. Enjoy. The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, California 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Subject: Yet Another "What's the title?" Date: 10 Feb 85 23:31:46 PST (Sun) From: Jerry Sweet Read this many many years ago, but can't remember the author or title. A truly demented SF novel. Ranks right up there with Age of the Pussyfoot. Here goes. A mad scientist invents a STD that eliminates aggression and warlike tendencies in humans. His two idealistic lab assistants happily spread it, targeting politicians in particular. Humanity, it seems, has a rosy future. However, not long after the start of a major undiscovered epidemic of this disease, packs of killer rabbits start roaming the English countryside, tearing up whoever they find. Far from being rabid, it turns out, these rabbits have this new disease. (I refuse to speculate on how they got it.) Yes, it seems that the mad scientist was really certifiable, and this disease of his merely represses aggression for a while, then brings it out all at once. Humanity, it seems, has a very short, nasty future ahead of it. Anyone recognize it? -jns ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 01:19:48 PST Subject: Pointers please? I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group minds. --Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro bang!crash!victoro@nosc sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 17:40 CDT From: pduff Subject: misc. topics old and new BOOK RECOMMENDATION FOR SF WRITERS, READERS: \The Science Fiction Source Book/, edited by David Wingrove (Van Nostrand Reinhold Company Inc., copyright 1984, $25.50 in hardcover). Briefly, this book is aimed at serious SF writers but most SF readers will find some items of interest (although perhaps not $25.50 worth). [Please, if you know of any other books which discuss the process of authoring or publishing SF stories or books (not writing in general, just SF writing) will you post title, author & publisher, and perhaps a review on SF-Lovers?]. Table of Contents: FOREWORD by David Wingrove "A BRIEF HISTORY" by Brian W. Aldris "THE SF SUB-GENRES" by Brian Stableford Introduction Man and Machine Utopia and Dystopia Time Travel Aliens Space Travel Galactic Travel ESP Disasters Religion and Mythology Parallel Worlds and Alternate Histories Sex and Sensuality Alien Ecologies Magic The Media Inner Space "THE SCIENCE FICTION WRITER AT WORK" Introduction by Frederik Pohl "One Man's Work" by Poul Anderson "The Secret Mind" by Ray Bradbury "Is there a Story in it Somewhere?" by Richard Cowper "Wrestling with Words" by Christopher Evans "Mapping Imaginary Countries" by Ursula LeGuin "Equipment, Method and the Rest" by Larry Niven "Thirty Years of Writing" by Robert Silverberg "How I Became a Science Fiction Master in only 15 Minutes a Day" by John Sladek "How I Write" by Lisa Tuttle "Where I get my Ideas" by Gene Wolfe "The Process of Composing" by Roger Zelazny "SCIENCE FICTION WRITERS: A CONSUMERS' GUIDE" [200 pages of biographies of SF writers] "First Magazine Publication of Leading Authors" "SCIENCE FICTION PUBLISHING" "The Science-Fiction Magazines" by David Wingrove "Magazine Checklist" "SF Publishing: The Economics" by Malcolm Edwards "SF CRITICISM" by David Wingrove "Criticism Checklist" "AFTERWORD" by Kingsley Amis "INDEX" [excellent!] regards, Patrick Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1905 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 17:40 CDT From: pduff Subject: misc. topics old and new I particularly enjoy SF books involving a group of either humans or aliens who have been observing and manipulating humanity throughout history. (As a matter of fact, I am in the process of writing one right now.) These usually take the form of someone stumbling across a secret society of mentally, physically, or technologically advanced humans, or perhaps being recruited by them. I am *not* interested in books which aren't written as fiction (unless they are *exceptionally* interesting); many of the "Lost Continent" or "UFO" type books try to pass themselves off as works of non-fiction to be taken seriously. Any pointers to such SF (!) books would be appreciated (Warning: if you use your real name, watch out for strangers in black limousines for the next few months!). regards, Patrick Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1905 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Feb 85 17:40 CDT From: pduff Subject: misc. topics old and new PERRY RHODAN (space-opera series popular in Europe): Although I enjoyed the first Perry Rhodan book (#1 in the series), the other four I've read were not very good. I've heard that there are now several hundred Perry Rhodan books, written by quite a few different authors. Are *any* of them worth reading? Are some so bad they're good? Is there anyone else out there who'll even admit to having read one? Has a list of titles with plot summaries and ratings ever been published? Do any of them contain interesting ideas, (i.e., gadgets, creatures, climates, etc.) even if the surrounding plot, etc. is worthless? I'll sometimes put up with poor writing or a stupid plot if there's a good idea buried in there somewhere. regards, Patrick Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1905 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Majipoor Chronicles Date: 10 Feb 85 01:38:28 PST (Sun) From: Alastair Milne The *best* SF movie? No question whatever in my mind: "2001: A Space Odyssey". A classic, and not just of SF. Without question the most beautiful and thought-provoking film I've ever seen. I much regret to say that "2010" is a shadow of it. Not far after "2001" I would place "Silent Running", possibly Bruce Dern's best film, and likewise beautiful and thought-provoking. "Fantastic Voyage" also deserves a place on the list. After them, the "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" films. And I *do* like Star Trek I, possibly better than the others. I will debate this separately, if anybody cares to do so. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Majipoor Chronicles Date: 10 Feb 85 01:38:28 PST (Sun) From: Alastair Milne The worst SF Movie? Well, having been spared the dubious delights of "Plan 9 from Outer Space", (and having to confess that "Lost in Space", being a series and not a movie, probably doesn't qualify), I think I'll go with "Mad Max" and the others that go with it: "Road Warrior", "The Destruction of Jhared-Syn" (different story: same ideas), "Adventure in the Forbidden Zone", and more of same, whose titles I can't be bothered to find out. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz (Herb Chong [DCS]) Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever Date: 11 Feb 85 16:17:47 GMT >From: Doug Bryan > >My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars". I have not seen >this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female >character who has quite large breasts. I have watched this one several times. the people I remember being in the show are Richard Thomas and Robert Vaughn. the heavy is someone I recognize who normally plays such roles, but his name escapes me. I was always under the impression that the movie was made as another spoof, albeit a rather high budget spoof. the special effects are very good (i've seen better, but only a few times). the plot is straight out of the space westerns or starwars. for that matter, it has similarities to `the last starfighter'. some of the things that stand out are the four white communal mind aliens, the two `heat-emitting' aliens that glowed in the dark, and the computer that ran Richard Thomas' ship. Herb Chong... UUCP:{decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: re: worst SF movie ever Date: 11 Feb 85 19:35:50 GMT >From: Doug Bryan > >My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars". I have not seen >this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female >character who has quite large breasts. Once again I must protest. Though not one of the greats, I've always liked this film in the "mindless entertainment" category. It's actually a science fiction remake of Akiro Kurosawa's _Seven Samurai_. (I suspect it's really a remake of _The Magnificent Seven_ which was a western remake of _Seven Samurai_.) Kurosawa's original is so good and durable that it seems impossible for anyone to do a truly awful rehash of it. In this case, the effects are reasonably well done, the plot is Kurosawa's (of course), and there's enough humor -- intentional and not -- to keep you from getting bored. Liking it is probably a matter for individual taste, but it's certainly not in the all time bad category. [***SPOILER*** BTW: The female character with the large "breasts" is actually a spaceship -- "the last of the fighting Corsairs". She steals a lot of the show, too.] The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, California 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ From: convexs!ayers@topaz Subject: Re: QUARK Date: 7 Feb 85 20:16:00 GMT Why does everyone always forget the one-eyed, gruff but likable scientist? [Some things were not meant for MAN to know...] Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not an obstetrician! blues, II ------------------------------ From: smu!jay@topaz Subject: Re: Quark Date: 8 Feb 85 20:23:00 GMT No. The actor for Mr. Hengist (I can't remember the name) is a smaller man. Both are bald and there is a resemblance. The actor (for Hengist) played the part of Fergus Finglehoff in an episode of Bewitched. He was a frog turned into a human. ------------------------------ From: uok!dwhitney@topaz Subject: Re: QUARK Date: 8 Feb 85 06:22:00 GMT Quark was one of my favorites, and the unforgettable character in my mind was played by Conrad Janis (who later went on to dubious notoriety as Mindy's father in Mork and Mindy..) He played a bureaucrat, if I remember correctly, but I cannot remember his exact title. This program premiered only a year or two after I had become a big-time Trek fan, and I couldn't help but notice the devices borrowed from Trek in the series. The most obvious was, of course, Captain Quark, but there were dozens of subtle little lines and props which were simply stolen right out of the Trek set when no one was watching. I always thought NBC treated the show unfairly, it was entertaining, funny, and totally harmless. I secretly hoped it was all part of a cloak-and dagger plan by the big-wigs at NBC to segue into a new Star Trek series, the similarities in shows, etc.... Oh, well, so much for nostalgia. Now all we have to enjoy any more is that awful (in my opinion) "V" -- a giant step backward in Science Fiction, I mean LIZARD CREATURES??? Give us all a break... David Whitney ctvax!uokvax!uok!dwhitney ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Feb 85 0947-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #55 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 55 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Niven & Varley & A Request Answered & A Story Request, Films - Loose Ends in Films & Buckaroo Banzai & Rocky Horror (3 msgs), Television - Quark & Old TV, Miscellaneous - Einstein & Science Fiction Book Club & Space Burial ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 02:02:53-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: Obie Anybody know the origin of the name "Obie" in Jack Chalker's Well World books? He (Obie) claims at one point "My name is actually an acronym but the words are so out of date that they have lost their meaning." Ideas, anybody? ------------------------------ From: jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington) Subject: Re: Niven's Characters Date: 13 Feb 85 06:01:53 GMT >> Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ... > > Well, not biological father. But say, if Bey was the "father" of > Louis (as I had always presumed), there is a passage that confuses > me. In the beginning of Ringworld they spend a great deal of time > discussing the Long Shot, and its previous flight. It seems > strange to me that Louis didn't know it was his own father that > had made that flight (I think his name is even mentioned > somewhere, but I couldn't find it). Remember, Beowulf was not permitted to have children by earth law (because he was an albino). I guess he was never able to tell Louis... > Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what > ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer? He is by far my favorite > Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what > happens to him. You never know, Niven may be planning more stories... I sure hope so... James Steven Carrington jsc@berkeley.arpa ucbvax!jsc ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 04:40:58-EST From: Doug Alan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #54 >>Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material >>other than: >> >> TITAN >> WIZARD >> DEMON >> Picnic on Nearside >> Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?) >> Millenium >> The Persistence of Vision > The only one you've left out that I know of is _The Barbie >Murders_. It's up to his usual standard. Enjoy. The book "Picnic on Nearside" is, I believe, "The Barbie Murders" retitled. There is also a retitled version (British import) of "The Persistence of Vision" called "In the Hall of the Martian Kings. There are several short stories I have seen of Varley's that are not in either of his short story collections. These include "Press Enter", "The Pusher", "Options", and "Blue Champagne". "Master of the Universe, We were born to go as far as we can fly; Turn electric dreams into reality... Brainstorm here we go" -Doug ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!thomas@topaz (Spencer W. Thomas) Subject: Re: Identify This One, Please? Date: 10 Feb 85 04:52:49 GMT jpa144@cit-vax writes: >> Ships were able to penetrate the sun by a field which somehow >>polarized the molecules (atoms?) of both ship and sun allowing >>those of the ship to "slip" between those of the sun. That's all >>I remember except that the story involved one trip into the sun >>and back out. > >I'm SURE this is or its sequel, both short >stories by an author whose name escapes me at the moment. I'm pretty sure the author was Lloyd Biggle, Jr. =Spencer ({ihnp4,decvax}!utah-cs!thomas, thomas@utah-cs.ARPA) <<< "Humor is the poetry of ideas that do not match." - Leonard Feeney >>> ------------------------------ Date: Tue 12 Feb 85 09:56:17-PST From: Bart Subject: Book request I am looking for the title and author of a book that I read about 12 years ago. I think the title was something like "The ______ Mind" where the blank may be "Expanded". It was about a man who could transfer his mind into animals. He was an agent for some organization. While he was on a space ship he was practicing puting his mind in a dog and there was one scene where he was looking at himself through the dog's eyes. When he was caught, he put himself in the mind of a bird and tapped S O S on someone's window to get help. Also, once when he was about to be tortured he transfered his mind into a swarm of bees (there was nothing else near by). Any help with locating this book would be appreciated. Bart Sears%hp-labs@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 85 01:17:25 PST Subject: Movie Loose Ends - Anyone for a sequel? I've often wondered about films that bring forth interesting ideas but then never carry them forth, either due to short-sightedness or the acts of the editing floor. So, what ideas have you wished were picked up and continued with, at least a little farther. My nomination: The monkey-human interface in 'Brainstorm'. This event is even more relevent because they never even explain why the concept was dropped. --Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro bang!crash!victoro@nosc sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@topaz (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: BANZAI INSTITUTE MESSAGE (re-sent) Date: 10 Feb 85 21:36:21 GMT It was wonderful ... I went to the opening of Buckaroo Banzai at the Nuart in West Los Angeles last Friday, and you would have loved it. It was a midnight showing, and was on the big day of our recent 2.5" rainfall here. We were all standing out in the pouring rain, some with umbrellas, waiting happily. Really bizarre. Unfortunately I got there too late for the freebie Team Banzai head-bands that were passed out earlier. It was bizarre. When they let everybody in (10 minutes after the movie was supposed to start) it was like a big party. I saw two guys in Perfect Tommy costumes, one dressed as Reno Nevada, three with a red cowboy shirt with detachable front like New Jersey's, and one guy with a silver coat JUST LIKE John Parker's (the black Lectroid who looked like a Rastafarian). They delayed the start of the movie for another 1/2 hour (about), giving everybody a chance to see all the other weird drenched people around them ... we were all standing by our seats looking around. During the movie, people were generally good about letting people hear it. However, during favorite lines a number of people would chime in: "Laugh-a while you can, Monkey Boy." was done in excellent unison, while "It's not my god-damned planet. Understand, Monkey Boy?" was almost universally botched by people who forgot the "Understand". However, the audience was universally unified for Lord John Whorfin's marvelous harangue, and responded correctly in the litany: Where are we going? Planet 10! When? Real soon! You had to be there... Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 12 February 1985, 09:14-PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: The Rocky Horror Show. >From: Evan Kirshenbaum > >As a possible explanation of the lack of success of the stage play >on Broadway, have you ever seen (or heard) the music for the >original? They improved it quite a bit for the Movie. The play may not have been successful on Broadway, but it was another story in London. I saw it there in August of 1980, just before it finally closed down after an eight year run. (Jesus Christ Superstar, which opened in London a few months before Rocky Horror, closed around the same time.) Personally, I thought the play was a good deal funnier and more effective than the film. I also preferred the music in the play, although I would have given a lot to have seen Tim Curry as Frank. ------------------------------ From: digi-g!brian@topaz (Brian Westley) Subject: Re: Rocky (Horrible) Date: 6 Feb 85 15:01:05 GMT Now, wait a minute...Rocky Horror was a 'cult' film looooong before 'Fame' came along. It was also a hit play (in England, at least; won the 1973 critics award for best play). Since 10 people will also post something in reply, I will make mine short. BTW, what's for dinner? Merlyn Leroy "Quote funny nose" ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 01:24:02-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Rocky (Horrible) > From: Evan Kirshenbaum > > As a possible explanation of the lack of success of the stage play > on Broadway, have you ever seen (or heard) the music for the > original? They improved it quite a bit for the Movie. Well, yes and no (re: have I heard the original). I haven't heard the London stage version, but I *have* heard (and own) a copy of the LA cast album. I, and everyone I know who's heard it, thinks it's far superior, music-wise, to the film soundtrack (and it was done *before* the film). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: tellab2!thoth@topaz (Marcus Hall) Subject: Re: QUARK Date: 11 Feb 85 17:45:41 GMT > there were dozens of subtle little lines and props which were >simply stolen right out of the Trek set when no one was watching. Yes, in one episode, Quark had to destroy the Lymbacon which was a Gorgon device that turned the planet Polumbus into a paradise (this wasn't known to the outside world, however) and all the great scientists that went to investigate it never returned (they were having too much fun). On the planet, Quark was asking one scientist directions to the Lymbacon, to which the scientist replied something like just down there and to the left, just past the Rodenberry bush. Quark met his childhood sweetheart, Dianne, but eventually overcomes the temptation and destroys the Lymbacon, and thus paradise. The last line of the episode is Quark saying "Goodbye Dianne, Goodbye Polumbus." This is a slightly modified version of the last line of Goodbye Columbus, one of Benjamin's first films, I believe. Oh Well, I guess I'll have to dig out my tapes and re-play the episodes, I haven't seen them in quite some time. marcus hall ..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth Quark: "Ficus, thanks a million" Ficus: "A million *what* commander?" ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: re: Commander Cody and Flash Gordon Date: 12 Feb 85 20:19:49 GMT >From: @RUTGERS.ARPA:wesm@mitre-bedford > > Hey, out there in netland, do anyof you remember the 50's >TV show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but as I >recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time. There was also >a TV show, Flash Gordon, not the Buster Crab thing, that was a half >hour weekly show that lasted a year or two. Anyone recall, or have >any info on who starred, produced, etc. any of these? I remember Commando Cody and his rocket powered flight jacket (a brown leather jacket with a rocket pack attached to its back, controlled by extending the arms above the head). Cody also showed up in theaters in serial format and once or twice on more recent TV as a film put together from a sequence of the old TV shows. I also remember Captain Zero and Captain Midnight and their respective decoder rings and secret message kits. The secret message kit worked by writing on a thin strip of paper with a clear wax crayon. To read the message you pulled the strip through the secret compartment of a ring containing a small ink pad. Wish I knew what became of mine -- probably worth a fortune by now. Capt. Midnight had a couple of sidekicks, one of whom was his resident scientist of the egghead-stereotype school. This guy actually did bring up some interesting concepts, though not always accurately presented. I remember one time he was playing with a 1" ball of neutronium on his workbench that Midnight said "... must weigh a hundred pounds!". A little off on the details, but the concept was there. The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, California 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: Mon 11 Feb 85 11:18:41-PST From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #50 As I recall from grade school (it made a great impact on me to learn he was dead), Albert Einstein died 8 April, 1955, so any such time capsule would have been opened in 1980, and we'd have heard about it by now--expecially as 1979 was his centenary celebration.... Rich Alderson@Score ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@topaz (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB Date: 10 Feb 85 21:21:28 GMT I disagree with the suggestion that one should join, get the freebies and get out. My copy of "Limits" arrived before Crown Books got it, and "Moreta" was only shortly after. Both were well before the paperbacks, which is really what you should be comparing with. For $6-8 or so, you get a nice durable copy. For some books this is important - I've gone through 3 or 4 copies of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", and 3 of the Tolkien series in paperback. If you do much re-reading, hardback is a boon. Of course, I've ordered some sight-unseen that have gotten to the next library book sale, but because of the (typically non-spoiler) blurb in the circular SFBC sends, I have a better chance of getting a re-readable book than wandering in and plucking SF paperbacks from an author I don't know. So I say it's worth it ... pick the opinion you want! Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: mot!al@topaz (Al Filipski) Subject: Re: Space Burial Date: 12 Feb 85 18:24:31 GMT >Yes, you can be buried in space! Just have someone send your >cremated remains ("cremains," as they were called in the news story >on NPR this morning) to SSI (not to be confused with the >Princeton-based Space Studies Institute, also called SSI), and they >will further reduce them to fit into a capsule approximately 1" by >1-1/4" which will be inscribed with your name, social security >number, and (optional) religious symbol of your choice. Then a >capsule containing several thousand of these will be placed into >low earth orbit (through the Van Allen Belt, which has very little >satellite traffic). Compact little shapes? (like what the Kelvans did to the crew of the Enterprise) Low Earth orbit? What a drag. I think I'll wait until they can give my carcass enough energy to leave the solar system. I can't decide whether I'd like to have my arms outstretched like Superman or maybe even go feet first. Imparting a stately slow roll to the body might be dignified but I'd be mad if they set that sucker tumbling arsey-varsey. Real comforting, thinking about gliding along that infinite mean free path until you sublimate. Better than a pyramid. Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A {seismo | ihnp4 } ! ut-sally ! oakhill ! mot ! al ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Feb 85 1014-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #56 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 56 Today's Topics: Books - King & O'Donnell & Secret Societies & The Tunnel, Films - Battle Beyond the Stars (2 msgs) & Mad Max & Star Trek IV (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Pseudo-science ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: THINNER, by who? Date: 12 Feb 85 14:50:54 GMT The quoted message only appeared in net.books, but I'm cross-posting to net.sf-lovers because this subject came up there a couple of months ago. > From: cbscc!rsu (Rick Urban) > I have heard that on the January 29th editin of "Entertainment > Tonight", the hosts put forth the rumor that the novel, "Thinner", > attributed to a man named Richard Bachman, was in reality written > by Stephen King. Although a photo of the gentleman appears on the > inside of the dust jacket, and the book is dedicated to his wife > (Claudia Inez Bachman?), the only info about this person is under > the photo: "Richard Bachman lives and works in New Hampshire". > Could the rumor be true? Anyone out there who could shed some > light on this issue? Well, a few days ago, I was going to post a message that presented my reasoned opinion on why I didn't believe that "Richard Bachman" was Stephen King. That rumor has been floating around for a few years, but after a hiatus in which it wasn't brought up at all, it resurfaced with a vengeance last fall. Anyways, all that is inoperative now, as it was revealed yesterday (Monday, 11 February) in the papers (The Boston Globe anyway) and on ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT that King has admitted that he did indeed write the five Richard Bachman novels that have been published so far. All the rumors have conflicted (and none of them were convincing to me) as to why King hid under this pseudonym, especially since he has been denying it ever since the rumor first appeared. Well, the reason given in the papers was that he didn't want there to be a "glut" of Stephen King novels on the market. I will still stick by my guns, though, and say that there are *lots* of passages in THINNER that do not read at all like King. He must have been consciously attempting to disguise his style. Oh, well, once again, I'm wrong (I've been wrong much too much lately; it's getting to be a bad habit...) So whose picture is that on the THINNER dustjacket? Well, ah, you see, it's a photo of, er, Richard Bachman. Apparently, Bachman *is* a real person, a lawyer from Minnesota, presumably an old friend of King's agent, Kirby McCauley (who comes from Minnesota). King has, I would assume con permisso, been borrowing Bachman's name and, recently, his likeness. I guess King finally had to fess up when the s**t hit the fan after ET annouced the rumor a couple of weeks ago. As for the Bachman novels, there are five altogether: ROADWORK, RAGE, THE LONG WALK, THE RUNNING MAN, and THINNER. The last is horror (and better than half the novels King has published under his own name), the middle two are dystopian science fiction, and the first two are supposed to be non-horror-fantasy thrillers (I don't have either of them, so I don't really know --- I hadn't even *heard* of ROADWORK until very recently). THINNER is, of course, in print in hardcover, and THE LONG WALK recently (in the past year or so) had a new printing. The other three are out-of-print. And, of course, since this news broke out, there is a run on these titles at the local bookstores (a friend and I stopped at a local bookstore last night looking for some magazines, and when I, as a joke, mentioned to him that we should see if they had any Bachman books, the cashier looked at us as if she was about to cry). If you want to read them, fear not, I'm sure that within a few months, they'll all be in print again with: STEPHEN KING writing as Richard Bachman! emblazoned on the covers. If you want first editions for your collection, Good Luck. See you at the used book stores! In case you're wondering, the reason I have THE LONG WALK and THE RUNNING MAN is because I picked them up when they first came out because they were somewhat-obscure sf novels. Sometimes, being a completist is a blessing. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 85 21:57:25 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: Kevin O'Donnell Kevin O'Donnell has written two other books, that have been around for at least 3 years; I dont know if they predate the ones that have been mentioned here already. One is Bandersnatch, about a post-economic disaster (I think) world, and a street-gang-leader within it named Bander Snatch (that is NOT Mr. Snatch). I thought it was a fantastic book on the first reading, but it didnt strike me as well on the second; I have no Idea why. The other book is War of Omission, and made me terribly depressed. It is a variant on the standard Marvelous New effect that gets Turned Into A Weapon that No One Knows How To Handle. Im not sure how the basic premise will sit with most people, but it works well if you accept it. I have not read this one a second time; I dont like getting depressed. have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!lazarus@topaz (Daniel G. Winkowski) Subject: Re: misc. topics old and new Date: 12 Feb 85 17:49:59 GMT > I particularly enjoy SF books involving a group of either humans > or aliens who have been observing and manipulating humanity > throughout history. (As a matter of fact, I am in the process of > writing one right now.) These usually take the form of someone > stumbling across a secret society of mentally, physically, or > technologically advanced humans, or perhaps being recruited by > them. I am *not* interested in books which aren't written as > fiction (unless they are *exceptionally* interesting); many of the > "Lost Continent" or "UFO" type books try to pass themselves off as > works of non-fiction to be taken seriously. Any pointers to such > SF (!) books would be appreciated (Warning: if you use your real > name, watch out for strangers in black limousines for the next few > months!). I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'sercret society' genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got through 1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid! I believe the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though my mind is rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I never wanted to hear about them again. They were real good, so good I did not dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders! Today we live in the future, Tomorrow we'll live for the moment, But, pray we never live in the past. Daniel G. Winkowski @ SUNY Buffalo Computer Science (716-636-2879) UUCP: ..![bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath]!sunybcs!lazarus ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 01:18:14-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: THE TUNNEL > From: Mark Purtill > If /The Tunnel/ was made in 1935, it has no relation to Harry > Harrison's /A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah/, (aka /Tunnel thru the > Depths/ or something like that), since that was written much > later. I have the original magazine version and while I don't > remember the exact year, it was in /Analog/ (not /Astonishing/), > so its some time since the name change. At a guess, maybe the > early seventies? Good guess. "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!" appeared in ANALOG, April through June, 1972. It was published later that year by Putnam (and in paperback by Berkley) as TUNNEL THROUGH THE DEEPS. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 1985 03:54 EST From: MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #53 re battle beyond the stars. i guess that i might just be in a minority i found bbts to be hilarious. robert vaughn looking for a dinner and a place to sleep. jon-boy telling them to put the dinner in the grave 'cuase he earned it' with a straight face no less. george peppard as the easterner cowboy (there really are people like that mainly from brooklyn and the bronx). i'll admit that it dragged but the unintentional humor was superb. shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 07:52-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Battle Beyond the Stars Actually, the character with the big breasts wasn't the space ship, it was the female in the very fast scout ship that buzzed around like a mosquito and had delusions of being hot stuff. I forget her name, but her people were called the Valkuries (how original). If you only saw this flick on the tube, you would not have gotten her full effect, since the networks edited out much of her upper torso. wesm@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 00:54:05-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: Mad Max I must protest! Mad Max and Mad Max II (a.k.a. The Road Warrior) are quite good, at least three-star movies. Road Warrior is unusual as a sequel in that it is slightly BETTER than the original. These movies aren't for everybody, but comparing them to stink-bombs such as Plan Nine From Outer Space is ridiculous. ------------------------------ From: rna!rfm@topaz Subject: Re: Star Trek 4 Date: 20 Feb 85 00:17:00 GMT >>Would anyone venture to guess what Star Trek IV will be about? >Can it be anything but "The Search For Spock's Luggage"? With the bucks Nimoy made on III, make it "The Search For Spock's Tax Shelter." Does anyone really think there will be a IV? Last I heard, Shatner wanted more than Paramont would pay him, and Nimoy wanted whatever Shatner was getting. And then there's the tidbit about how much the Captain liked getting directions from his First Officer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 00:49:03-PST From: Mark Crispin Subject: Star Trek IV Is there any truth to the rumor that it will be called "You Klingon Sons, You Killed My Bastard"???? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 85 17:28 CDT From: Patrick_Duff To: Physics@sri-unix.ARPA Subject: Pseudo-science of flying saucers, time travel, etc. This message discusses pseudo-science (what would "pseudo-science fiction" be like? Or could Fantasy be considered "pseudo-SF"?) related to various topics commonly found in science fiction and the bonus questions at the end of college physics exams. Consider yourself warned. Suppose an average science fiction reader or an average physics student were to find himself back in, say, the time of the Renaissance (14th to 16th century). He might try to communicate his knowledge of relativity, jet planes, radio & television, the structure of the universe, and other ideas from modern science & technology to the scientists and engineers of that day. Unfortunately, while many people have some knowledge of relativitity's ramifications, they probably could not provide a rigorous argument supporting them. While they might know something about how radio or a jet works, they probably could not construct a working model or adequately explain the theory behind them. In other words, they would have something interesting to write about, but would not be able to convince anyone that it was correct. (Could you, to that audience?) On the other hand, suppose someone from a thousand years in our future were to find himself in our time. He might try to communicate his knowledge of hyper-quantum translation (or whatever), faster than light star drives, interstellar communication techniques, the underlying nature of reality, and other ideas from his time. If he were just an average non-scientist, his limited familiarity with these things might give him something interesting to write about, but leave him unable to prove or demonstrate any of it in a convincing way. When reading two recent books I had that kind of impression, i.e., that there might be something to the author's ideas, but while he came tantalizingly close to making sense at times, his supporting arguments fell short of convincing me they were valid. Let's just say that they are the most *entertaining* pseudo-science I've come across in the last few years. Science fiction readers and writers will enjoy them for the "plausible" discussions of flying saucer drives, faster than light travel, time travel, hyperspace, higher dimensions, etc.. At the very least, there are some good pseudo-explanations to provide excuses for all those things that one wants to have in SF stories. Those interested in physics should enjoy trying to figure out exactly where the problems lie in the author's arguments, or trying to reconcile some of what he says with the rest of physics. Of course, those of you who are actually from the future may not get much out of these books; perhaps you can come up with some comments to clear up some of the more obscure points for the rest of us. The first book described below mainly covers various applications; the second one gets more into the underlying "theories": \How to Build a Flying Saucer: And Other Proposals in Speculative Engineering/ by T. B. Pawlicki (ISBN 0-13-402461-3, Prentice-Hall, Inc., copyright 1981, $5.95 in softcover). Table of Contents: (1) Megalithic Engineering: How to Build Stonehenge and the Pyramids with Bronze Age Technology; (2) This Crystal Planet: How to Create a Worldwide Communications Network--Still Using Bronze Age Technology; (3) Beyond Velikovsky: Einstein's Relativity Demonstrated, Mining Energy from Empty Space, and the Green Hills of Mars; (4) How to Build a Flying Saucer: After So Many Amateurs Have Failed; (5) The Philosophers' Stone: How to Transmute the Elements by Engineering the Geometry of Standing Waves; (6) Time Travel: How to Navigate the Streams of Time Through Hyperspace; Index. \How you can Explore Higher Dimensions of Space and Time: An Introduction to the New Science of Hyperspace for Trekkies of all Ages/ by T. B. Pawlicki (ISBN 0-13-444043-9, Prentice-Hall, Inc., copyright 1984, $6.95 in softcover). Table of Contents: Introduction; (1) The Dance of Life; (2) The Scientific Koan; (3) What is Dimension?; (4) The Six Dimensions of the Universal Hologram; (5) A Scale Model of the Universe; (6) The Fine Art of Science; (7) Beyond Infinity: Where did Einstein go Wrong?; (8) The Sonic Field: How to Generate Gravity with Sound; (9) Exploring the Velocity Gradient; (10) Trinity; Epilogue: Journey to the End of the Universe; Index. Bookstores don't seem to know how to catagorize these books; I found the first one in the SF section and the other one with the Religion books! regards, Patrick Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1905 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) WARNING: Rebooting Universe will erase karma records. Abort? (Yes/No): no Creating universe number H2947-8F46M-5GB75-01R03 in fractal series .003952 Do you want to modify any constants? (Yes/No): yes Enter constant to modify or press RETURN to create a new constant: ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Feb 85 1003-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #57 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 57 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE PRISONER ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Feb 85 13:40:50 EDT From: Jaffe@RUTGERS Subject: SPOILER WARNING!!!! The following may contain material which may ruin the plot of the TV show "The Prisoner". People who have not yet seen this show may wish to skip the following messages. Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) ------------------------------ From: warwick%tron.DEC@topaz (Trevor Warwick x4432) Subject: Re: Prisoner Date: 11 Feb 85 09:54:19 GMT Channel 4 here in England repeated all the 17 episodes of The Prisoner last year. When it was finished, they also showed a 1 hour special documentary about what it was all supposed to mean. This featured interviews with McGoohan, and many of the production team. One of the interesting bits of information that came out of it was that the Rovers were never actually meant to look like balloons. Apparently, they had designed some amazingly complex and impressive looking machine that was supposed to be the automatic sentry. Unfortunately, on the day of the filming, it hadn't yet been delivered, so McGoohan had the bright idea of using an old meteorological ballon that they found on the set. The rest of the crew thought that this was a ridiculous idea, but I think it worked. Had they made Dark Star when The Prisoner was made... ? trevor warwick Engineering Division, Digital Equipment Corporation, Reading, England. {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-tron!warwick ------------------------------ From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 11 Feb 85 17:27:19 GMT If you had read the books, (Which I did at about 13), you know that the rovers were fluidic robots. In the book 'The Prisoner' the bouncing balls were color coded for specific function: ground based guardian, flying guardian, amphibious guardian, and so forth. The white robots were the only ones that could kill. (Which they did by digesting the victim; leaving only metal parts behind. Ugh!) I guess they decided to make them all white in the series. Or am I missing something, due to a black and white tv? Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron ------------------------------ From: whuxl!map@topaz (PEARCE) Subject: Re: Re: The Prisoner Returns (SPOILER) Date: 12 Feb 85 20:03:30 GMT > I hope they tell us who #1 is at the end of the series, or at > least get him rescued. Q: Any thought as to where the Village > really is? Not that many places can have the kind of climate they > do (rarely rains, never cold), with a bay and mountains, etc. > Whaddya think? > > -Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss The Prisoner series was filmed in a town called Portmerrion, on the South Wales coast, UK. I have been there. The whole town consists of an architects fantasy of a period Italian town. Some of the buildings are just frontages, i.e. no complete buildings. They just look good. Number TWO's front door actually opens onto a sheer rock face. I understand that *they* now run the town as an exclusive hotel. And yes, number SIX's house does exist right where you see it in the series. ***SPOILER**** If I can recall, when I saw the original Prisoner series in England, number SIX is number ONE. Confused? Well that's how the series ended all those years ago. P.S. What do you mean, that it rarely rains and is never cold in the village. I assume you don't know Wales in the winter. Mike "answer the British questions" Pearce ..!ihnp4!whuxl!map ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 1985 14:58:10 PST Subject: The Village From: Alan R. Katz To: malis@BBNCCS.ARPA I was actually at The Village, it is in fact at Portmeirion, in northern Wales, near Penrhyndeudraeth. I stayed there overnight (in Number 5). (They kept asking me why I resigned for some strange reason, I told them: "But I didn't resign." They said " Sorry, must be a mistake, you can go.). But seriously, it is a really neat place to visit. It is actually a hotel or resort, and is quite small. There are a number of small cottages, and a small main hotel, but the hotel suffered fire damage a few years ago, so although the outside looks OK, there is nothing yet on the inside. (The hotel was the old folks home in the Prisoner, right in front is the stone boat). If you want to visit, I strongly suggest staying at the village itself, its real cheap. The first night I was there, I stayed at a bed and breakfast in Penrhyndeudraeth, which turns out to be a few miles away, and transportation isn't all that great. I got there by train, which is a really neat way to go since you can see the village as you approach from the other side of the bay, and there are a lot of interesting things to see on the way there. Also, if you go by train, do not stop at Penrhyndeudraeth, but a few stops before it, and see if the people at the hotel will pick you up (from the map, this is not obvious). At any rate, if anyone is interested, here is their address and phone: Portmeirion Penrhyndeudraeth Gwynedd LL-48 6ER Telephone: 0766-770228/770335 Be warned that the village will look A LOT smaller than you expect, its sort of like a Hollywood set. For example, Number 2's dome is only about 15 or so feet across. During most of the year, there is a guy named Max which runs a Prisoner souvenir shop in Number 6's residence. (He actually drives around in one of those Taxi/golf cart type vehicles like in the show). Be Seeing You, Alan (Number 5) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Feb 85 22:04:56 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: The Prisoner A number of years ago Thomas Disch wrote a book called The Prisoner, which I believe is based on the series. It was quite good. A friend of mine who is heavily into the show loved the book, which is the best recommendation I can think of it. I liked it too, but have only seen a couple of shows and don't remember them well; my friend has seen all of them and has an eidetic memory. I consider her opinion in this matter a bit more noteworthy. Any other comments? has anyone else seen this book? why has no one else mentioned it? have fun /amqueue By the way, which one's Pink? ------------------------------ Subject: The Prisoner Date: 12 Feb 85 20:56:29 PST (Tue) From: Alastair Milne Marvelous series. I hope it comes around this way again. But WITHOUT the psychiatrist who, the last time it was run, supplied comments after every show. Yes, I know it's hard to believe anything so ruinous, but that's what they did. Hanging would have been far too good. (BTW, this in the LA/Orange County area of California.) I never really thought that, beyond Number 1 and Number 2, there was any real hierarchy in the numbering system. For one thing, *nobody* would have been at the same level as anybody else. Odd hierarchy. But how did he get to be Number 6, when there were people with numbers in the hundreds (and who were *they*? Spies? Warders? Innocent people?)? One wonders whether the Village had already been there, or whether it was specially set up to try to break him. Big project for one man, but then he was an important agent. But if it had already been there for a time, surely that number would already have been taken. Or did it happen to be vacant at the time? As to that umbrella thing that the Number 2's carry, it could (knowing the Village) be just about anything (a personal escape rocket, perhaps?) but it *could* just be an umbrella. As I recall, lots of the Villagers, especially the women, wore rain capes from time to time. If the Village is in Britain, they'd need them. I agree that the Village was *probably* run by British Intelligence, but it's almost as hard for us to tell as it is for Number 6. That, of course, is the fundamental conflict of the series: he doesn't know whether the warders are British, or enemies trying to break him; they don't know whether he's loyal to Britain, or selling out to enemies. And we really get no more clues than he does. It keeps the suspense up constantly. Begging your pardon, I believe that quote is: "I am not a number, I am a free man!" to which the only reply he gets is Number 2's long, loud laughter, seeming to come from a moonlit, grey sky. Excellent series, one of the finest I've ever seen. I do hope it comes back. Alastair Milne "Je ne suis pas une numero! Je suis un homme LIBRE!" -- from the French translation shown on channel 79 in Toronto. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 85 10:20:52 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #49 From: Conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA >> The location of the Village? That I can tell you. It's on the >>Baltic Sea on the coast of Lithuania. I don't believe that that >>means that it is a Communist institution, though. I am convinced >>that British intelligence runs it. Spoiler warning. But as I remember, the whole thing was a hoax, since (wasn't this in the Chimes of Big Ben?) he really didn't escape the Village at all. Any answers regarding the Village/Prisoner/etc. would be "telling". End spoiler warning. Note: Look for #6's STREET address in his walk up in London. You could easily guess the answer. Daniel Conde #(sqrt(-1)) conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 85 19:46:55 EST From: Kevin.Dowling@CMU-RI-ROVER Subject: Prisoner episode guide I thought I'd add this outline style episode guide. It does NOT list synopsis' of the episodes though! I remember seeing the series for the first time and am very glad no one told me what was going to happen... Starlog #11 does have an episode guide to the show and a skimpy article on the series. Many fanzines also had episode guides. The Ontario Educational 'Prisoner Primer' was one of the better ones. Travel & Leisure Magazine In 1980 May or June I believe had an article on Portmerion in Wales. Many public libraries should have this. The Prisoner Episode Guide 1967-68 An ITC production by Everyman Films Ltd. Executive Producer: Patrick McGoohan Script Editor: George Markstein Made on location in the grounds of the Hotel Portmerion, Penrhyndeudraeth, North Wales by courtesy of Sir Clough Williams-Ellis and at MGM Studios, Borehamwood, England 1966/67 Director of Photography: Brenden J. Stafford BSC Art Director: Jack Shampan Theme by Ron Grainer Casting Director: Rose Tobias Produced by David Tomblin 10/1/67 Arrival Director: Don Chaffey Writer: George Markstein/ David Tomblin Guy Doleman as No. 2 George Baker as the new No. 2 Angelo Muscat as The Butler. 10/8/67 The Chimes of Big Ben Director: Don Chaffey Writer: Vincent Tilsley Leo McKern as No. 2 Nadia Gray as Nadia Finlay Currie as The General 10/15/67 A, B, and C Director: Pat Jackson Writer: Anthony Skene Colin Gordon as No. 2 Katherine Kath as Engadine Sheila Allen as No. 14 10/22/67 Free For All Director: Patrick McGoohan Writer: Patrick McGoohan Eric Portman as No. 2 Rachel Herbert as No. 58 Angelo Muscat as The Butler 10/29/67 The Schizoid Man Director: Pat Jackson Writer: Terence Feely Anton Rogers as No. 2 Jane Merrow as Alison Earl Cameron as The Supervisor 11/5/67 The General Director: Peter Graham Scott Writer: Lewis Greifer Colin Gordon as No. 2 John Castle as No. 12 Peter Howell as The Professor 11/12/67 Many Happy Returns Director: Joseph Serf Writer: Anthony Skene Donald Sinden as The Colonel Patrick Cargill as Thorpe Georgina Cookson as Mrs. Butterworth 11/19/67 Dance of the Dead Director: Don Chaffey Writer: Anthony Skene Mary Morris as No. 2 Duncan MacRae as The Doctor Norma West as Girl Bo-Peep 11/26/67 Checkmate Director: Don Chaffey Writer: Gerald Kelsey Peter Wyngard as No. 2 Ronald Radd as Rook Patricia Jessel as 1st Psychiatrist 12/3/67 Hammer Into Anvil Director: Pat Jackson Writer: Roger Woddis Patrick Cargill as No. 2 Basil Hoskins as No. 14 Victor Maddern as Band Master 12/10/67 It's Your Funeral Director: Robert Asher Writer: Michael Cramoy Derren Nesbit as No. 2 Mark Eden as No. 100 Annette Andre as Watchmaker's Daughter 12/17/67 A Change of Mind Director: Joseph Serf Writer: Roger Parkes John Sharpe as No. 2 Angela Brown as No. 86 Angelo Muscat as The Butler 1/7/68 Do Not Forsake Me O My Darling Director: Pat Jackson Writer: Vincent Tilsley Clifford Evans as No. 2 Nigel Stock as The Colonel Zena Walker as Janet 1/14/68 Living in Harmony Director: David Tomblin Writer: David Tomblin David Bauer as The Judge Alexis Kanner as The Kid Valerie French as Kathy 1/21/68 The Girl Who Was Death Director: David Tomblin Writer: Terence Feely Kenneth Griffith as Schnipps Justin Lord as Sonia Harold Berens as Boxing MC 1/28/68 Once Upon A Time Director: Patrick McGoohan Writer: Patrick McGoohan Leo McKern as No. 2 Angelo Muscat as The Butler Peter Swanwick as The Supervisor Although this episode was screened as the 16th episode it was the 13th (last of the 1st season) to be filmed. An 8 month production gap took place between these last two episodes. 2/4/68 Fall Out Director: Patrick McGoohan Writer: Patrick McGoohan Leo McKern and Alexis Kanner Kenneth Griffith as The President Angelo Muscat as The Butler Peter Swanwick as The Supervisor nivek Arpanet: nivek@cmu-ri-rover Bell: (412) 578-8830 USmail: Robotics Institute CMU Schenley Park Pgh, PA 15213 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Feb 85 1252-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #58 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 15 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 58 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Wilson (2 msgs) & A Request & An Answer & The Tunnel & Manipulation Stories & Group Minds (3 msgs), Films - Worst SF Movie (3 msgs) & Best Movie & Battle Beyond the Stars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: akgua!edb@topaz (E.D. Brooks [Emily]) Subject: A Short Story Re-Discovered (Finally!) Date: 12 Feb 85 18:42:14 GMT Many moons ago I requested help from this newsgroup in re-discovering the title, author, and anthology of a short story I had read when much younger (approx. 15 years ago). Imagine my disappointment when I received exactly ZERO replies! No one remembered my story! (So much for advance thanks!) But, I have found it! It has been re-released in a *new* collection of short stories by Poul Anderson (I might have known he was the author) entitled "Dialogue with Darkness". The particular story I was looking for is titled "Sister Planet" and still retains the haunting anguish I remembered so well. This collection credits "Satellite", May, 1959 which is apparently a magazine. I did NOT first read this in any magazine (certainly not in 1959! I hadn't learned to read then) and will probably never know what anthology I saw it in. The collection "Dialogue with Darkness" is excellent. I recommend it to you all. These are older stories, but only a few (like "Sister Planet") have obvious discrepancies due to discoveries made since their original publication. And, no, I will not include any spoilers at all. Read and enjoy! Emily Brooks {ihnp4!}akgua!edb ------------------------------ To: sunybcs!lazarus@topaz (Daniel G. Winkowski) Subject: Re: misc. topics old and new Date: 14 Feb 85 01:52:11 PST (Thu) From: Jerry Sweet It's actually "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea (not Sheckly). Robert Anton Wilson also has written "The Earth Will Shake: Volume One of the Historical Illuminatus Chronicles", issued by Bluejay Books, Inc. (ISBN 0-312-94128-5), which I picked up this evening at B. Dalton. A list of other books by RAW mentions "The Illuminati Papers", "Masks of the Illuminati", and "Cosmic Trigger: The Final Secret of the Illuminati". Anybody seen these? There's also mentioned as forthcoming "The Widow's Son: Volume 2 of the Historical Illuminatus Chronicles". -jns "Avoid eye contact. If there are no eyes, avoid all contact." --Firesign Theater ------------------------------ Date: Thu 14 Feb 1985 09:51:56 EST From: Subject: ILLUMINATUS Trilogy > I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'sercret society' > genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got > through 1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid! > I believe the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though > my mind is rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I > never wanted to hear about them again. They were real good, so > good I did not dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders! The series you are thinking of is the "ILLUMINATUS" trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea. Here, here !! These books employ a delightful non-linear narrative, which can make for difficult reading. (The reader has to keep track of half a dozen sub-plots and be prepared to switch between them without warning.) This style serves to link a strong libertarian viewpoint with a reverence for eros, randomness and surprises. (One doesn't have to equate libertarianism with the controlling, rationalizing attitudes of Objectivism and much of our scientific/technological culture.) I believe the authors conceived this series in reaction to the many "crank-letters" about conspiracy theories they received while working as editors at Playboy. Highly recommended; enjoy !! "All Hail Eris, All Hail Discordia, Blessed Be !!" Karl Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL) ------------------------------ From: ukma!red@topaz (Red Varth) Subject: Here's another book that needs identification: Date: 12 Feb 85 21:14:00 GMT This book starts out about a professor whose wife has left him. He gets depressed one night, and tries to commit suicide. He's saved by his hat. His wife is a nurse, I think. Anyway, his sister comes to visit him (she's had a falling-out with her boss), and ends up living with him for a while. Then she gets kidnapped. The prof just about bankrupts himself trying to track her down, and finally pinpoints her location. Then he gets caught by the same guy who kidnapped her. At this point, the story shift to another person. This guy officially doesn't exist -- he doesn't have the equivalent of a SS number. He's a burglar by profession (and a good one, too). Then he breaks into this apartment, and discovers that the tenant (a woman about 24-26) is trying to commit suicide. [Note: This society has something very similar to the "tasp" from Ringworld, except that anyone can buy one. They call it "wire-heading" in this book] The woman had plugged herself into the wire, and was starving herself to death. The guy unplugs her, and saves her life (she breaks his nose in the process). He performs a little rough psychology on her, and gets her unaddicted to wire-heading. Then she decides that she wants to "get back" at the companies that make the wires. She wants him to help her, and he declines. His reasoning is that a man who doesn't officially exist would be worth a lot of money to those companies. He could do dirty work for them, and no one would every know. Or words to that effect. To make a long story short, he discovers a good bit of his past, and yes, he's the professor. Then he goes on a rampage to rescue his sister. End of story. I don't remember anything about how he did (or didn't) succeed. ***** Any ideas? It's annoying to recall so much of the plot, but not the title or author. Someone suggested "The Steel Rat" (or something like that). I haven't read that, but it doesn't sound familiar. Thanx, Red ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: Here's another book that needs identification: Date: 13 Feb 85 23:43:47 GMT I don't know how much this helps, but the part about the burglar and the woman sounds very much like a story that appeared in _OMNI_ a few years back. I know, it's a pretty thin lead, but you might be able to check at a library, or maybe a subscriber to _OMNI_ could help you. (I let my subscription lapse, too many dumb articles on pseudo-science.) > . . . . . Then he breaks into this apartment, and discovers that > the tenant (a woman about 24-26) is trying to commit suicide. > > The woman had plugged herself into the wire, and was starving > herself to death. The guy unplugs her, and saves her life (she > breaks his nose in the process). John L. Templer University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: The Tunnel Date: 14 Feb 85 00:26:51 GMT Daniel P Faigin (ucla-cs!faigin) quotes me: >>Last weekend I saw the 1935 movie The Tunnel, also titled The >>Transatlantic Tunnel. ... And asks: > Does anyone know if this movie is related in any way, shape, or > form to the Harry Harrison book, > "A Transatlantic Tunnel, Hurrah!" Yes, I do. No, it isn't. Harrison's book (which also has an alternate title, "Tunnel Through the Deeps" ("Deep"?)) was written in about 1965 or 1970, and is set about an alternate history where the US did not leave the British Empire. On the other hand, the movie in question is based on a 1913 book in German by B. Kellermann and is set in the ordinary future. (In the movie, the Channel Tunnel had been opened in 1940, and the scene was sometime later.) For those who missed the original article: the movie is interesting mainly as a curiosity; all prints were thought lost, so it's rare. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 85 16:40 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: manipulation books First to come to mind is, of course, the white mice in 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'. Most of the Illuminati books of Robert Anton Wilson are either of this type or a spoof on books of this type. I can't remember any titles offhand, but there is a trilogy. The Lensman Series by E.E. "Doc" Smith is sort of under this category. I've only read the first couple books, though. Brett Slocum ARPA: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 85 10:20:39 PST (Wednesday) From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Pointers please? >I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group minds. The Fire Lizards in Anne McCaffrey's Pern series had racial memory. So did Paul Muad'dib Atreides ("Dune") and his children and his sister Alia. Keith Laumer's "The Infinite Cage" has a character who can draw upon the memories of all of humanity somewhat telepathically. Group minds? Heinlein had something in "Methusula's Children" (in the collection "The Past Through Tomorrow") about The Little People. Also the alien enemy bug thingies in "Starship Troopers". And "I Will Fear No Evil" had a group of minds in a single body. "The Puppet Masters" were kind of a group mind (this story was ripped-off into a Star Trek episode where a blob of Jello-slime flies onto Spock's back and tries to take over his body). Varley had an interesting version of a group mind in "The Persistence of Vision". And Gaea ("Titan", "Wizard", "Demon") could fragment herself into a group of minds. Also, Varley's Symb-human pairs that lived in the Rings of Saturn ("Equinoctial") experienced a very loose form of group mind (mostly due to mating!). The basic conflict in Haldeman's "Forever War" hinged upon the incompatibilities of group and discrete minds. Julian May's Galactic Milieu ("The Saga of the Pliocene Exile") had a sort of Galactic group mind called Unity. Movies -- Nestor in "Battle Beyond the Stars" was a group mind (hilarious scene of one Nestor eating a hot-dog and all of them chewing). And to all you people in net land: I remember a short story (by Heinlein or Asimov?) that involved a starship manned by a multi-racial crew coming to evacuate Earth before Sol goes nova. A few of the crew were part of a group mind. This was important when a landing party was trapped in a trans-Atlantic subway and cut off from radio communications. Anyone know the author/title? That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but it should keep you busy for a while. --Josh Nestor: "That's okay, we always carry a spare." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 85 16:40 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: racial memory / group minds The Neanderthals in 'The Clan of the Cave Bear' shared racial memory in their private male ceremonies. Also some advanced skills were passed from one generation to the next sort of instinctually. For instance, the Medicine Woman (can't remember her name) learned her trade in this manner. This book and the sequel 'The Valley of Horses' are very good reading, and I recommend them highly. For a group mind novel, 'More than Human' by Theodore Sturgeon is one. It's about a group of misfits that all possess some extraordinary psychic talent. These people develop into a sort of Gestalt person. That's all I can think of right now. Brett Slocum ARPA: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 14:49:15-PST From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andrew Kenah, DTN 381-1576) Subject: Group minds Probably the best depiction of the group mind/racial memory idea is Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End". (Highly recommended.) Another novel that also considers the idea of the group mind is Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human". (Also highly recommended.) Andrew Kenah DEC @ ZKO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 85 13:47 EST From: Jonathan Cohn Subject: Re: Dr. Who vs. Star Trek & worst Sci-Fi movie. My roomate comments: On the matter of the worst SF movie: "Starcrossed is the worst all time Sci-fi movie. It gets my award for best pyrotechnic display doing the least amount of damage." Jonathan Cohn BITNET::JC595C@GWUVM or QU229C@GWUVM ATT:: (201) 676-2353 ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 13:01:50-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: SF movies Doesn't anyone remember A BOY AND HIS DOG? Come on now!! Gaylene ------------------------------ From: ptsfa!kmo@topaz (Ken Olsen) Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever Date: 12 Feb 85 17:08:46 GMT >From: Doug Bryan > >My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars". I have not seen >this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female >character who has quite large breasts. > >Any comments?? There are two things I remember about this masterpiece. One, Richard Thomas was in it (what a superb follow-up to "The Waltons"!); and two, Erin Moran dissolved into foam. The latter was the best part for me since Ms. Moran has always struck me as one who should be dissolved. (Remember her as 'Joanie' in "Happy Days" and that ever-popular spin-off "Joanie Loves Chachi"?) Enough of this sanity; on with the idiocy . . . Ken Olsen {ihnp4,ucbvax,cbosgd,decwrl,amd70,fortune,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!kmo ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Feb 1985 13:08:50-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: SF movies In all this reminiscing, does anyone remember ZARDOZ or WIZARDS? (two of my all time favorites) Does anyone know where or if I can get them on tape? Also, I don't quite remember who wrote either one. Didn't Sean Connery star in ZARDOZ? (I could of sworn it was his gorgeous body I saw) Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 11:17:03-PST From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #54 >[***SPOILER*** BTW: The female character with the large "breasts" is >actually a spaceship -- "the last of the fighting Corsairs". She >steals a lot of the show, too.] > >The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Sorry. The female character with the large breasts is the last of the Valkyries, very much a woman (NOT a spaceship), and in network TV release, not particularly visible: For scenes aboard her ship, there is a rectangle burned out of each and every frame; for the one scene where she is visible with others who have to be seen, the focus was "re-adjusted" so as to make as if everything were viewed through vibrating gelatin. It is pretty good as mindless entertainment, but I wish the networks would grow up and realize that censorship of even mindless fluff is best done by cutting the entire movie, rather than some scene or other. Rich Alderson@{Score, Sierra} ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Feb 85 1356-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #59 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 16 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 59 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (4 msgs) & A Request Answered (2 msgs), Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Loose Ends & Worst SF Movie & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nmtvax!student@topaz Subject: Re: Niven's Characters Date: 11 Feb 85 17:27:06 GMT mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob) writes: >What? Bewulf Shaeffer - hero of "Neutron Star" (a.k.a "There is a >Tide") ... , and father of Louis Wu doesn't make the list? Carlos Wu was the biological father of Louis Wu with Sharrol Janse the mother. Bewulf was the foster father. Sincerely; Greg Hennessy ..ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!student ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 85 08:54:46 PST (Wednesday) From: Susser.PASA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Beowulf Shaeffer What becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer? Read the "Down in Flames" outline stored somewhere on the SF-Lovers directory (ask Mister Moderator). --Josh [Moderator's Note: The file is available only through FTP and the ANONYMOUS login. It is T:DOWN-IN-FLAMES.TXT.] ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Niven' characters Date: 13 Feb 85 09:09:33 GMT > From: ucbtopaz!mwm > What? Bewulf Shaeffer - hero of "Neutron Star" (a.k.a "There is a > Tide") (which you mentioned)... "Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story. The former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars Louis Wu (which was why the original poster mentioned it). If you don't believe me, you can look them up in NEUTRON STAR and TALES OF KNOWN SPACE. BTW, I agree with you --- Bey is just as interesting, if not more so, than Louis Wu or Gil Hamilton. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 February 1985, 07:56-PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Louis Wu >> Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ... > Well, not biological father. But say, if Bey was the "father" of > Louis (as I had always presumed), there is a passage that confuses > me. In the beginning of Ringworld they spend a great deal of time > discussing the Long Shot, and its previous flight. It seems > strange to me that Louis didn't know it was his own father that > had made that flight (I think his name is even mentioned > somewhere, but I couldn't find it). I believe that it's explained in "The Borderland of Sol". Since Shaeffer was legally prevented from having children on Earth, his wife Sharrol had one with Carlos Wu. There's a scene in "Borderland" where Shaeffer and Wu Senior run into each other. Wu is embarrassed over the whole substitute father business, although Shaeffer can't see what he's so upset about. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 13 Feb 85 09:36:12-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Aggression suppressor Jerry Sweet's query, concerning the book with the new disease that suppresses aggression (for a while...) is Edmund Cooper : Kronk He has also written such good stories as Sea-Horse in the Sky The Last Continent, and (my favourite) Prisoner of Fire. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 February 1985, 07:59-PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Yet Another "What's the title?" >From: Jerry Sweet > Read this many many years ago, but can't remember the author or > title. A truly demented SF novel. Ranks right up there with Age > of the Pussyfoot. Here goes. > > A mad scientist invents a STD that eliminates aggression and > warlike tendencies in humans. His two idealistic lab assistants > happily spread it, targeting politicians in particular. Humanity, > it seems, has a rosy future. However, not long after the start of > a major undiscovered epidemic of this disease, packs of killer > rabbits start roaming the English countryside, tearing up whoever > they find. Far from being rabid, it turns out, these rabbits have > this new disease. (I refuse to speculate on how they got it.) > Yes, it seems that the mad scientist was really certifiable, and > this disease of his merely represses aggression for a while, then > brings it out all at once. Humanity, it seems, has a very short, > nasty future ahead of it. > > Anyone recognize it? The title is "Kronk". I read it a bunch of years ago in a British edition. Someone did a synopsis of this story here a few months ago. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 05:34:38-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: BUCKAROO BANZAI at the NuArt > From: randvax!jim@topaz (Jim Gillogly) > It was bizarre. When they let everybody in (10 minutes after the > movie was supposed to start) it was like a big party. I saw two > guys in Perfect Tommy costumes, one dressed as Reno Nevada, three > with a red cowboy shirt with detachable front like New Jersey's, > and one guy with a silver coat JUST LIKE John Parker's (the black > Lectroid who looked like a Rastafarian). > > During the movie, people were generally good about letting people > hear it. However, during favorite lines a number of people would > chime in ... in excellent unison... Oh, God, no! Buckaroo has fallen victim to the Rocky Horror Syndrome! Sigh. Well, at least I can pick this one up on videocassette. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 05:28:07-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) Subject: re: Movie Loose Ends > From: (Victor O'Rear) > I've often wondered about films that bring forth > interesting ideas but then never carry them forth, either due to > short-sightedness or the acts of the editing floor. So, what > ideas have you wished were picked up and continued with, at least > a little farther. > My nomination: The monkey-human interface in 'Brainstorm'. > This event is even more relevent because they never even explain > why the concept was dropped. What's to explain? It was meant only to be a throwaway --- a gag pulled on the one guy by the other. There was no intent on developing it as a concept; the story moved off in another direction totally. Now, I agree that it's a fascinating idea that deserves a full treatment of it's own, but it really had no relevance to the story in BRAINSTORM, except very superficially. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 1985 12:41:07-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford I imagine you're all getting tired of this subject by now, but I couldn't resist mentioning a few truly awful films that I don't think anyone else has brought up: "Attack of the Robots" --- in which the 'robots' are humans who have been hypnotized or drugged (or something) and then 'programmed' to assassinate various world officials. This one is worse than just awful; it's boring! "Attack of the Giant Leeches" --- in which giant leeches kidnap some unfortunate suckers (sorry!) and take them to their dripping slimy underground hideaways where they (the leeches) can feed off them at their leisure. "Laserblast" --- a amateurish production in which a boy finds an alien weapon which becomes affixed to his arm and turns him into a demented creature who lives only to blast '57 chevies! And we get to see most of them explode several times over! "Moon Zero Two" --- I'm surprised no one mentioned this one, in light of the fact that it featured Catherine Schell (Maya from "Space: 1999"), about whom everyone one was wondering so recently. I think that she was credited in the film as "Catherina Von Schell". At any rate, this film was billed as the First Space Western; enough said. And now, I'd like to offer a new twist on this topic. What follows is a list of bad movies that... I liked anyway! (I'll admit to it; I'm not proud.) "The Wizard of Mars" --- you guys didn't like this one? C'mon, now. Remember those funny pale water plants that tried to strangle the heroes when they dozed on their raft? And the pendulum that controlled time?... I've got to admit, when they restarted the pendulum, and time began to flow again, even I had to say "This is really dumb," but hey, that's beside the point. I think what really got to me was the eerie music when they're out in the desert, lost and thinking they're goners. Yeah, I was able to let go and get inside of that, and really feel the cold desert winds, and the sand in my space-boots. And then they saw the castle, far off on the mountain. God knows how or why, but it worked for me. "Red Planet Mars" --- someone said they didn't like this one either. Yeah, so maybe it was a little hoky, maybe a little melodramatic. Hmmm... or maybe a lot. But hey, that's ok! I thought Peter Graves made a rather likable Scientist/Hero (does anyone remember whether he wore glasses and took them off during dramatic moments?), and I remember liking his leading lady, too. And though some of you may have thought the bit with God was silly or stupid or hoky or whatever, I thought it was kind of refreshing to see an SF film that was willing to deal with the issue of God and his existence right up front, and was willing to do it without the cold and unrelenting rationalism that so often accompanies the 'science is supreme' attitude that is (let's face it) so often encountered in this genre. At least it wasn't cliche! "Voyage to the Prehistoric Planet" "Voyage to the Planet of Prehistoric Women" --- This little baby came from (I think) Czechoslovakia, and was originally seen here under the first listed title. In it, some guys go to Venus and end up wandering around the planet for a while (I don't remember exactly why). They travel over both land and sea, using this really nifty little hover-craft-like vehicle, which can also travel under water as well. There's a great scene where they're preparing to submerge the craft, and one of the guys pulls this big thing out of the floor which looks for all the world like a huge drain-plug! During their travels they get attacked by something resembling a pterosaur, and at another point discover the submerged remains of an ancient city. Now comes the good part! Some folks in the west got hold of this film and inserted some new footage they shot on their own. The film was then distributed under the second listed title. I've heard Peter Bogdanovich was connected with this in some way; any confirmations? The new footage was largely divided into two groups of shots. The first group featured Basil Rathbone as a space station commander giving orders to our Venus-bound heroes. The second group featured some scantily clad women frolicking on a rocky beach; these were supposed to be Venusian natives. The costumes were ridiculous and great: clam-shell brassieres, long blond hair, etc. They apparently had psi-powers of some sort, or maybe just great hearing, because they somehow knew about the Earth-boys landing on THEIR planet, and weren't too thrilled about the invasion of their privacy, especially when the guys went strolling through THEIR submerged ancient city. So they call upon one of their gods to help them, and (surprise!) their god sends a pterosaur to attack the astronauts. It's great fun if you're lucky enough to see these two films within a few weeks of each other, so that your memory will allow comparison. "Gog" --- Aw, come on, this one's not all that bad! It's full of those great 50's labs (you know, where metal is just ALL OVER the place), and it's got that subtle 50's-ish atmosphere of paranoid militarism. Remember that one device that had a whole panel of tuning forks sticking out of it? Ridiculously great stuff! Or is that greatly ridiculous? So, do any of the rest of you have any films like those above, that you know were pretty bad, but -- you can't help it -- you liked them anyway? It's the taste for junk food, I guess. Stephen King talks about this in his book DANSE MACABRE, a book I highly recommend to all who enjoy fantastic fiction of any sort, not just to King fans or horror fans. He talks about how, because of Sturgeon's Law, you've almost GOT to have a taste for junk food if you're going to watch many fantastic films at all and enjoy them. And of course the same applies to books. If you're going to be able to watch film after film in THIS genre, or read book after book in THAT genre, you MUST have a talent for zeroing in on the few good points that even the worst efforts in the genre often have. How else could you enjoy them? Now I may be stepping where giants fear to tread here, but it occurs to me that "Dr. Who" fans should understand the above. Don't get me wrong, who-fans! I thoroughly enjoy the Doctor, really I do! But let's face it, those shows often contain a LOT of hokum! But we love it anyway! The hokum is not the point; the shows transcend that. Hmmm... This all applies to "Star Trek" to some extent, too. (Boy, am I in for it now!) But I LOVE Trek, I really do! Honest!... But TV shows weren't the point of this letter. What I'm interested in is: what bad or downright awful movies did you enjoy anyway, in spite of how bad you KNOW they were? Be brave -- 'fess up! --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 85 09:40 PST From: Todd.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Star Trek IV plot ?? How about this for a plot: As hard-core Trek fans would never accept the concept of a James T. Kirk never again being able to go toe-to-toe with three Klingon battle cruisers simultaneously, the Klingon scout with cloaking device has got to go. The Enterprise crewpeople simply need another Federation starship, preferably one that looks like the Enterprise, and even more preferably the *real* Enterprise. As to the small problem of acquiring one ... The Fed HQ will never give one to them. Savior of the Genesis project or no, Kirk is not a good team player and will never get a Federation command *as things stand now*. It becomes irrelevant that the new Fed starships (like Captain Styles' in ST3) are ugly, and Kirk wouldn't want one anyway. This means that Kirk must find one from out of the salvage yards. F'rinstance, remember the abandoned Constellation (?) orbiting the planet of Yangs and Coms? I do not remember its fate, and it might still be available. Or better yet, how about the alternate universe Enterprise with the evil Kirk, sneaky Spock, etc ... ? Kirk's alter-ego didn't look long for the multiverse at the end of that one, and whoever is riding around in that ship now could doubtless be suckered into losing it. It wouldn't be the most outrageous stunt Kirk has ever pulled. All he'd need to do then would be to get 400 warm bodies to crew it and use as token casualties whenever he found a new planet to beam down to. Ad infinitum. My vote for a title to ST4 is "Star Trek IV, the search for Star Trek V". --- JohnnyT "But I don't know that either!" ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Feb 85 1059-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #60 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 60 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Wilson (3 msgs), Films - Computers in Films & Battle Beyond the Stars & Best SF Movie & Star Trek (3 msgs), Television - Old TV Shows (2 msgs) & Otherworld, Miscellaneous - SF Book Club ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Feb 1985 16:45 EST From: Jim Aspnes To: jsc@UCB-VAX.ARPA (James Carrington) Subject: Niven's Characters >Remember, Beowulf was not permitted to have children by earth law >(because he was an albino). I guess he was never able to tell >Louis... Actually, Louis Wu's biological parents were Sharrol Jans, a Terran computer programmer with a strong phobia against space travel, and Carlos Wu, poet/mathematician/etc., who was granted an unlimited birthright at the age of 18 and sired Louis as a personal favor to Sharrol and Beowulf. As to why Louis never heard of the Long Shot, I would guess that Beowulf did a very good job of keeping his contract with the puppeteers. Unfortunately, this doesn't explain very well why Louis Wu never seemed to think about Dear Old Dad much, but he never was the family sort. Interesting note: Louis has a full sister. Perhaps the Wu/Shaeffer tales are even more unfinished than we think. Jim (asp%mit-oz@mit-mc) ------------------------------ From: uwvax!derek@topaz (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: Louis Wu Date: 14 Feb 85 20:01:18 GMT > Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ... What I mean is the following: Okay, Carlos fathered Bey and Sharrol's son Louis. Now, what bugs me is that when, in Ringworld, Louis is told of the maiden voyage of the Long Shot, he is either unaware or uncaring that his father was the pilot on that flight. Obviously Louis had either no curiosity about his father's past activities (unnatural for a son) or Bey never entertained his son with such stories (unnatural for a father). Or else so much time has passed since Louis's childhood that he no longer remembers or cares about his parentage. Derek Zahn @ wisconsin {allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 1985 14:37 EST (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: pduff Subject: misc. topics old and new Well, I believe "Illuminatus" by Robert Anton Wilson is the biggie of that type of story. I actually haven't been able to read it myself though, so I must admit that I'm basing my comment on hearsay. Another story that you might like is Talbot Mundy's "The Nine Unknown", nor should we forget The Second Foundation. ------------------------------ From: war@mit-dutch (Chris Warack) Date: 14 Feb 1985 1440-EST (Thursday) Subject: Illuminati >I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'sercret society' >genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got through >1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid! I believe >the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though my mind is >rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I never wanted >to hear about them again. They were real good, so good I did not >dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders! Robert Anton Wilson was one of the authors of Illuminati (only one 't'). I don't remember the other. The series is amazingly good, although the way it jumps around from one viewpoint to another is confusing sometimes. This is the book that explains the Kennedy assasination, the disappearance of John Dillinger, pyramid power, the sinking of Atlantis, evolution, ... THEY have a finger in everybody's pie. The question is "Who are they?" It even involves Cthulu. The Bavarian Illuminati IS mentioned in the dictionary, so some of the story is factually based. And, their symbol is the pyramid with the eye in it. Now, where have I seen that before? -- Chris Warack war@dutch "All Hail Discordia!" ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 85 15:36:49 EST (Thursday) Subject: Fairy tales for paranoids To: Sunybcs!lazarus@TOPAZ.ARPA From: Chris Heiny There are a lot of books about the Illuminati and co. There are three series, + a mess of others: Illuminatus! (Robert Anton Wilson & Robert Shea) 3 vols The Eye In The Pyramid The Golden Apple Leviathan Schroedinger's Cat (Robert Anton Wilson) 3 vols The Trick Top Hat The Homing Pigeons The Universe Next Door The Historical Illuminatus! (RAW) 1 vol, another soon, maybe more The Earth Shall Shake The Widow's Son (supposedly out soon) ?? Masks of the Illuminati! [a good introduction to Illuminoids] The Illuminati Papers The Cosmic Trigger: The Final Secret of the Illuminati The last two are more in the nonfiction line, as they tend to be more philosophy and personal experience. Chris Everything you know is false. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 85 11:33 CST From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Computers in Films (Microtrivia) Microtrivia question: What First Generation computer played a bit part in the Nolte/Murphy film "48 Hours"? ------------------------------ From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever Date: 12 Feb 85 19:40:27 GMT >From: Doug Bryan >My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars". I have not seen >this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female >character who has quite large breasts. "Battle Beyond the Stars" was a remake of "The Magnificent Seven", which was a remake of Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" (which, incidentally, I nominate for a permanent position in the 5 best films ever made). ("Seven Samurai", for pete's sake, not any of the others!) The best part for me was Robert Vaughn playing the same role as he had in TM7, even down to the black leather gloves. \\I// though it was very funny, though the director may not have intended it thus... La musique est une science qui veut qu`on rit et chante et dance. -- Guillaume de Machaut Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 (kerch@lll-tis.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 1985 14:13:08-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Best SF Film Alastair Milne recently nominated "2001: A Space Odyssey" for best SF film. Though I too would put "2001" near the top of my list, I also think it sort of went too far, tried too hard, in some ways. I'll not elaborate, since this is hardly a new opinion. Instead, I'll offer my own candidate for all-time best SF film: "The Day the Earth Stood Still" I think this film has it all: a mature plot and theme, fine performances, not too much melodrama, and (last but not least) plenty of theremin music in the soundtrack! (Just kidding there.) But it's surely one of our all-time best movies, if not the single greatest. Anyone agree? --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 1985 14:48 EST (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Star Trek IV Apparently Shatner is getting $2,000,000 to do the movie. I haven't heard anything about Nimoy, but George Takei is coming to speak at MIT in a couple of weeks, so maybe something concrete will be revealed. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 1985 14:51 EST (Thu) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Star Trek IV Actually, the working title is "Jim Kirk Rides Again or Old Starship Captains Never Die, They Just Make More Money." ------------------------------ Date: Thu 14 Feb 85 16:08:25-EST From: Gern Subject: Penthouse Gene Roddenberry Interview I just dug up a photocopy that was given to me in my high school years by an older person of just the text and no surrounding pictures from an interview of Gene Roddenberry by Penthouse magazine. It is about 7 to 10 years old, 5 pages worth, and no date. It is a very good interview with The Great Bird. I was wondering if anyone knew the issue date so I can properly register the copy in my files. Thanx, Gern ------------------------------ From: imsvax!heyman@topaz (Hank Heyman) Subject: Re: Commander Cody, Flash Gordon Date: 14 Feb 85 17:10:37 GMT Commander Cody was a mid 50s NBC series starring Judd Holdren. It was based on two or three earlier movie serials about heroes using rocket suits, including King of the Rocket Men, and Zombies of the Stratosphere. At least one of the series feature the Commander Cody character and one starred an actor named George Wallace. More information on the serials is in a book called To Be Continued, which includes information on all serials. The serials were also syndicated on Saturday morning TV. There was also an early 50's TV series on the old Dumont network called Flash Gordon which starred Steve Holland and was filmed in West Germany. Some information on these series appears in the book Fantastic Television (1978). Hank Heyman, IMS, Rockville, MD ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: Commander Cody and Flash Gordon Date: 14 Feb 85 23:50:21 GMT >Hey, out there in netland, do anyof you remember the 50's TV >show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but as >I recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time. Do I remember Commander Cody, Sky Marshall of the Universe??? I was a little tyke in kindergarten and the week split neatly in two parts. There was the hour on Saturday morning when they showed Commander Cody and Captain Midnight. Then there was the dull part of the week that lasted 167 hours! Judd Holdren wore the Republic serials rocket suit and fought the minions of The Ruler from the planet Saturn. I just loved to see the spaceships that took off horizontally like planes and to watch Cody fly between them with his rocket suit. If you want to see the props again, watch for serials on TV. The suit is in KING OF THE ROCKET MEN, the suit and the spaceships were in RARAR MEN FROM THE MOON and ZOMBIES OF THE STRATOSPHERE. The TV series was not so much ahead of its time as it was the serials of a year or so earlier brought to the tv screen. Captain Midnight, incidently, was a scientist who had a secret super-scientific laboratory on top of a mountain. He was played by Richard Webb and his sidekick was Ichobod Mudd (Sid Melton, later of the Danny Thomas Show). His lab also had a scientist at his beck and call, Tut -- short for Aristotle Jones, played by Olan Soule. His personal jet was the Silver Dart ("Fire up the Silver Dart, Ikky!"). He also had a secret army of kid helpers called the Secret Squadron. The code of the Secret Squadron was "Justice -- through strength and courage." In various episodes he dealt with a good scientist turned into a monster called "the electrified man" whose touch was deadly. Also there was a guided missile that looked like a cannister vacuum cleaner and rolled sinisterly along the ground guided to its victim. Both were pretty scary to my kindergartener mind. In syndication, the name was changed to Jet Jackson. >There was also a TV show, Flash Gordon, not the Buster Crabbe >thing, that was a half hour weekly show that lasted a year >or two. Anyone recall, or have any info on who starred, >produced, etc. any of these? I liked it, but not as much as the above two. The series was produced in Germany. I remember Flash on Earth in a VW bug with a sun roof and I thought a sun roof was a science fiction idea. Flash was played by Steve Holland, Dale Arden by Irene Champlin, and Alexis Zarkov by Joe Nash. I liked the space ship a lot. This series was shown in 1957, the previous two in 1955. Portions of my memory on the above were aided by TOTAL TELEVISION by Alex McNeil. Now let me ask a really obscure one. I remember around 1955 or 1956 watching a show with someone having a machine with a window that could see the past (or future?) I think that they could also step through the window. I vaguely remember the show, but have never seen a reference to it anywhere. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: imsvax!heyman@topaz (Hank Heyman) Subject: V and Otherworld (TV) Date: 14 Feb 85 17:10:37 GMT The TV series V has gone downhill because it has no direction; no one can win or the series would end. Otherworld is starting to remind me of The Fugitive. A society so advanced to build androids with full logic and emotions would surely encode a serial number identification into the "access crystal." This has become a device to make life easy for the American family. Hank Heyman, IMS, Rockville, MD ------------------------------ Date: 14 Feb 1985 12:41:31-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Someone asked about the SF Book Club a while back; having been a member off and on now for something like eight years, I thought I'd offer my opinions: I feel the club is definitely worth joining. You should understand that, in general, their hardbacks aren't up to the quality of those you'd buy in a bookstore (pages aren't well-trimmed, bindings and spines aren't quite as sturdy), but then, neither are their prices. You can, generally, get a hardback from the club for less than twice the price of a paperback edition of the same book. And club hardbacks are definitely more durable than a paperback! Selection can be quibbled with. They have lot of titles, but there are many they don't have, too. I've often terminated my membership after a few years because I felt they no longer had anything I wanted. But they introduce new titles at the rate of 3 or 4 per month, so after another year or so, I was always ready to rejoin. "The Integral Trees" is a good example of the timing of club offerings. It first became available from the club about 2-3 months (I think) before it hit the shelves of bookstores in paperback form. I believe this is typical; other club members, correct me if I'm wrong. One great feature of the club is that they occasionally offer special editions. Some of these are simply omnibus editions, like all the "Amber" books in a two-volume set, which do save you some money. But some of the others are much more appealing. For instance, through the club I've gotten hardback editions of "Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials" and "The Art of Rowena," both beautiful books (if you're into SF illustration), and which I've never seen in hardback elsewhere. The physical quality of these two editions was much higher than usual for the club; they seemed the equals in every way of editions you'd buy in a bookstore, except hardbound instead of soft. If I recall correctly, the club prices of these hardbacks were darn near the same as what the softbound editions would've cost at a neighborhood Waldenbooks. And a year or two back they offered an edition of "The Castle of the Otter," which was otherwise available only through a small press, I believe. The only minuses to club membership that I can think of are: 1) you have to remember to send in your response form every month or else they automatically send you their two featured selections; 2) their selection could be broader; and 3) a few of their dust jackets are just plain ugly. Good luck! --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Feb 85 1129-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #61 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 61 Today's Topics: Books - Aldiss & Anthony & Donaldson & Heinlein & Niven (3 msgs) & Wilson (2 msgs), Films - Attack of the Killer Tomatoes & Battle Beyond the Stars & Starcrash & The Day of the Triffids (2 msgs) & The Tunnel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wenn@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (John Wenn) Subject: Re: Help ! Book Title and Author search. Date: 15 Feb 85 21:50:37 GMT > The story is told in the First person by one of the humanoids and > i think it narrates his life , there is a question that is present > throughout the story , something to do with where they come from > or got to . There are battles with other tribes of similar > humanoids the main target being food which is in short supply. This is "Hothouse" by Brian Aldiss (aka "The Long Afternoon of Earth"). This was recently re-released, so you can even get a new copy in paperback. A pretty good book of Earth's Far-Far-Far future, but I still prefer Jack Vance's "The Dying Earth" or Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun". /John ------------------------------ From: unc!walker@topaz (Douglas Walker) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 13 Feb 85 16:01:22 GMT If you liked Xanth, try his 'Juxtaposition' series: Split Infinity, The Red (Blue?) Adept, Juxtaposition. He's also written some more 'serious' stuff - psychological drama, etc. in the Tarot series (3 books) and also somewhat in the Cluster (4 or 5 books) series. I've not read his Orn - Ox - Omnivore series, but it LOOKS like (judging by the cover) more of the Cluster-type stuff. ------------------------------ From: reed!schmidt@topaz (Alan Schmidt) Subject: Re: TC the Unbeliever Date: 12 Feb 85 20:37:20 GMT >> Yikes! Not fifteen! I couldn't make it through any more than the >> first three. >> >> Covenant doesn't seem real to me. His actions don't make sense. >> The reason I read as much of it as I did was to pick out more of >> the background (which makes a good setup for a DND campaign). > > Such is your opinion. I guess it's only to be expected; people > can only judge from experience. Most people who've never > experienced being an outcast wouldn't be able to understand, much > less judge clearly. > > I find Linden Avery (second Chronicles) hard to understand and > harder to accept. But I have never had *her* experiences, so I > cannot judge. Anyone out there willing to step forward? Oh, all right, if you INSIST. Linden, like Covenant, was selfISH, but thought she was selfLESS. Her entire system of ethics was pulled out from beneath her when she realized it was based on a faulty premise. Everyone's been an outcast at one time or another. You cope. You learn to live with it. Covenant coped relatively well. Covenant's fault wasn't that he was an outcast, but that he couldn't relate well to people. I liked the first three. The second chronicles were a little tedious, though I liked Linden Avery. Donaldson forgot that part of the appeal of the first chronicles was that each book was complete unto itself. Also, as has been said before, though I'm not sure any more whether it was this news group, Donaldson really didn't have enough story material for three books the second time around. I think he wrote three because it's vogue to write in trilogies. If he writes three more, I hope he follows more closely to the first trilogy than the last. Alan Schmidt ..tektronix!reed!schmidt ------------------------------ From: spock!gumby@topaz (Kevin Kaplan '86 cc) Subject: Re: Heinlein Date: 12 Feb 85 15:23:01 GMT For all of you devoted fans of Robert A Heinlein, I recommend strongly his latest book: J.O.B. - A COMEDY OF JUSTICE. It is a parody of the story of Job in the bible. I think it is one of his best yet. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 01:21:22-PST From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon Subject: Known Space One of the first things I learn about this BBoard is that there is an archive of some very interesting things maintained. One of these is a work entitled "Down In Flames", by Larry Niven. I will not say what it is about, but for the minor point that it occurs in Known Space. This work is dated 1977. I asked once before, with no reply, if there had been any further work on this, or if it had really been written finally. Again, I ask. I would be very interested in reading such a story. Andy Gideon Gideon@SU-SCORE "The perversity of the Universe is nothing compared to my girlfriend" ------------------------------ From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz Subject: Re: Niven's Characters Date: 13 Feb 85 23:42:50 GMT >> > Beowulf Shaeffer ... father of Louis Wu ... >> Well, not biological father. Correct, but... >> [Query as to why Louis doesn't know about the first flight of the >> Long Shot from his father.] >Remember, Beowulf was not permitted to have children by earth law >(because he was an albino). I guess he was never able to tell >Louis... Bey was on his way back to Earth to see his wife & son again, and Carlos (Louis' biological father) had left Earth. I think Louis would have known who his father was. Chalk it up to the stasis box effect, and let it go at that. [Sorry, but I can't resist: "Will Louis find out who his father is? Will Bey make it back to Earth? Will Elephant get his wish? Who will mother Carlos' next child? For the answer to these and other questions, tune in next week to 'As Known Space Churns.'"] >> Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what >> ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer? He is by far my favorite >> Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what >> happens to him. >You never know, niven may be planning more stories... I sure hope >so... Yes, but writing about how a character drops out of things doesn't mean Niven has to quit writing stories about the character. After all, all we know about the 200 years of Louis Wu's life before 'Ringworld' is 'There is a Tide' isn't it? So there's lots of Louis Wu stories still to be written. Contrary to what I said earlier, 'There is a Tide' is *not* the same as 'Neutron Star'. Now, didn't 'Neutron Star' appear under another title, and *what was it*? "Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story. The >former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars Louis >Wu... >--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) Well, you're almost right. It was Louis's father, Carlos Wu. Jim Ericksen Dept of Comp Sci UNC Chapel Hill ------------------------------ From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang) Subject: Re: Illuminati Date: 14 Feb 85 23:25:39 GMT >>I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'secret society' >>genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got >>through 1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid! >>I believe the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though >>my mind is rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I >>never wanted to hear about them again. They were real good, so >>good I did not dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders! > > Robert Anton Wilson was one of the authors of Illuminati (only one > 't'). I don't remember the other. The series is amazingly good, > although the way it jumps around from one viewpoint to another is > confusing sometimes. > > This is the book that explains the Kennedy assasination, the > disappearance of John Dillinger, pyramid power, the sinking of > Atlantis, evolution, ... THEY have a finger in everybody's pie. > The question is "Who are they?" It even involves Cthulu. > > The Bavarian Illuminati IS mentioned in the dictionary, so some of > the story is factually based. And, their symbol is the pyramid > with the eye in it. Now, where have I seen that before? > There is an Illuminati game which involves all of the aforementioned groups. I think it is a spoof of the book. Eli Liang University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang ------------------------------ Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 19:54:59-GMT From: Alan Greig Subject: Illuminatus Cc: alan%dct@ucl-cs.arpa >I recall a particular series (trilogy?) of the 'secret society' >genre, this was/is the Illuminatti (sp?) series. I only got through >1 and 1/2 of the books since I started becoming paranoid! I believe >the writers were Anton Wilson and Robert Sheckly, though my mind is >rather foggy on this since once I put the books down I never wanted >to hear about them again. They were real good, so good I did not >dare go anywhere without looking over my shoulders! The original series did indeed form a trilogy, I'm not 100% certain but I think they were The Golden Apple The Eye in the Pyramid Leviathan maybe not in that order. They were written by Robert Anton Wilson and Bob Shea. Wilson then went on on his own to write another trilogy, Schroedinger's Cat which was based on the same (or similiar characters as Illuminatus) but each book was set in a parallel universe (I think!). I can only remember the title of one of these, The Trick Top Hat. He's since written several other books in the same vein, the last I saw being Masks of The Illuminati which manages to star Albert Einstein amonst others ! The only way to describe these books is "WEIRD" and fear of prosecution keeps me from going too much into the contents of some of the books. If you'ld like to know about Rhoda Chief and ACE then you'll have to read them.! As an interesting point there really was a secret society called the Illuminati which you should be able to find in any good encyclopaedia, eg Britanica. I'd better not reveal to much more though as who kno A r gh Keep away from me, I didnt mean to reveal everything. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 21:07:03-PST From: k_moreau%grdian.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau DTN 283-7627) Subject: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes not a parody? Ridiculous. * * * * SPOILER WARNING * * * * How can you even consider that Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is intended to be a serious movie that just happens to be incredibly bad? Remember the entire briefing scene, in that tiny little room? Remember the scene where the disguise expert sneaks into the tomatoes camp, and gives himself away by asking them to "pass the catsup"? Remember the scene at the end of the movie, after most of the tomatoes have been killed off by the music being played, the final huge tomato is advancing on the female reporter? It is wearing ear-muffs, and is finally killed off by the hero holding up a piece of sheet music. If this isn't parody, I don't know what is. Ken Moreau ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random) Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever Date: 13 Feb 85 13:26:16 GMT herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong [DCS]) writes: > >i have watched this one several times. the people i remember being >in the show are Richard Thomas and Robert Vaughn. the heavy is >someone i recognise who normally plays such roles, but his name >escapes me. The heavy is John Saxon. He plays a lot of bad guys and even the occasional good guy. He has been in a lot of SF (good and bad). The first ones that come to mind are _Planet Earth_, _Genesis II_ and a third one that I can't remember the name of. They all deal with a post-holocaust (sp?) world where the only technical and peaceful group left is called Pax. Not bad movies on the whole. A little standard on the plots but worth a couple hours on saturday afternoon. Random Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: Bad movies Date: 13 Feb 85 23:16:08 GMT >As far as these pitiful attempts to find the world's worst SF movie >of all time, one movie has been over looked. I am not quite sure >of the title, but here is a brief description. > >I saw it several years ago on Cable TV, it never even got to the >theaters it was so bad. It was on the tail wind of Star Wars and >an obvious attempt to cash in on its selling potential. It was >about a young hero, who had a link in with some Force-like >magic who went around whining. The hero was played by Marjoe >Gortner, who many may not remember as a child evangalist. >Christopher Plummer had a bit part as the Emperor (I don't know if >he was evil or not) and seemed accutely embarrased throughout the >thirty or forty seconds that he appeared on screen. (He got top >billing, if I remember correctly). I'm pretty sure someone mentioned it, perhaps in net.movies. You are describing STARCRASH which starred Caroline Munro (as Stella Star) along with Gortner and Plummer. It was directed by Louis Coates (Italian science fiction-fan Luigi Cozzi). It won't win any prizes, but it was well paced and better than literally hundreds of science fiction films. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: The worst sf movies ever made Date: 13 Feb 85 23:38:34 GMT >There are at least three versions of Day of the Triffids >that I have heard of. Two are relatively recent - late 70's >- and the other is much older. I saw the original one, and >I thought it stunk. The acting was terrible, the plot was >abominable, and the 'special' effects were unmentionable. I >haven't seen the newer releases, but with that plot, there's >only so far they can go. The 1981 BBC adaptation shows up on the Arts and Entertainment cable channel. It follows the novel page for page. It is intelligent and well made. Since the novel is not really about monsters but about how societies function, it is well worth seeing. A friend who is a post-holocaust story enthusiast says that it is the best post-holocaust dramatic presentation he has ever seen. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: snow!tjb@topaz (Timothy Bissell) Subject: Re: The Day of the Triffids Date: 12 Feb 85 11:36:52 GMT >How can you call Day of the Triffids a bad Sci-fi movie? I thought >it was quite good and it is certainly far above the likes of Mars >needs women, etc. M. McCann The reason why it is so bad is that it deviates from the book so much. The BBC produced a series based on the book which (as I recall) followed it more closely, and was much, much better. Tim Bissell, University of Warwick, UK ------------------------------ Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 22:54:19-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Transatlantic Tunnel From the archives: Curtis Bernhardt: Der Tunnel (1933) Maurice Elvey : Transatlantic Tunnel (1934) The Bernhardt film was released in both French and German versions, shot separately but from the same script. As far as I know, neither survives. The Elvey film is a clone, with a different shooting script and different special effects. My standard reference [ Baxter: SF in the Cinema ] says it is much worse that the continental versions Nothing to do with the Analog serial. Note that Harrison - rather less implausibly - had his heroes construct a buoyant tunnel OVER the mid-atlantic fault, rather than have them bore through volcanos. Robert Firth ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Feb 85 1221-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #62 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 62 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Hodgell (2 msgs) & Robinson (4 msgs) & Stasheff & Story Request Answered & Group Minds (3 msgs) & Story Request (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (leeper) Subject: Followup to a number of articles Date: 14 Feb 85 02:26:15 GMT >From edb@akgua.UUCP (E.D. Brooks [Emily]) > >Many moons ago I requested help from this newsgroup in >re-discovering the title, author, and anthology of a short story I >had read when much younger (approx. 15 years ago). Imagine my >disappointment when I received exactly ZERO replies! No one >remembered my story! (So much for advance thanks! :-)) But, I >have found it! It has been re-released in a *new* collection of >short stories by Poul Anderson (I might have known he was the >author) entitled "Dialogue with Darkness". The particular story I >was looking for is titled "Sister Planet" and still retains the >haunting anguish I remembered so well. This collection credits >"Satellite", May, 1959 which is apparently a magazine. I did NOT >first read this in any magazine (certainly not in 1959! I hadn't >learned to read then) and will probably never know what anthology I >saw it in. Could it have been one of the following?? ALL ABOUT VENUS ed. by Brain Aldiss FAREWELL FANTASTIC VENUS ed. by Aldiss & Harry Harrison GET OUT OF MY SKY ed. by Leo Margulies My source (Contento's Index) says it was in all three. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Feb 85 01:31:11 EST From: Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] Subject: A new variation on "Does anybody know..." Does anybody know who did the cover of the paperback edition of Godstalk by P.C. Hodgell(sp)? It depicts the lead character standing on top of the inn where she has made her home in Tai-Tastigon. I have asked at various cons so far, with no luck. If there is a signature visible on the cover, I haven't been able to find it.I would like a print of the cover, so if you know who the artist is (or even if you know the artist) please tell me so I can look for it...or put me in touch with them. In addition, does anyone know or have any rumors as to whether this book has/will have a sequel? It was the first book in a long time that I actually got lost in, and I would like some of the loose ends cleaned up and also some of the background elucidated. If anyone knows the author, Pass This Praise On! I hope (s)he writes more in this style and universe. thanks for any info /amqueue Contrary to popular opinion, I am not *Tigger*. Be Seeing You.... ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: A new variation on "Does anybody know..." Date: 16 Feb 85 07:26:10 GMT >Does anybody know who did the cover of the paperback edition of ... Sure -- the book's publisher knows! Why not write to them? If you don't know who published it, and don't have a copy of the book any more to check, your public library can probably help. Mark Brader ------------------------------ From: petsd!cjh@topaz (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: Here's another book that needs identification: Date: 15 Feb 85 18:27:36 GMT > This book starts out about a professor whose wife has left him. He > gets depressed one night, and tries to commit suicide. He's saved > by his hat. His wife is a nurse, I think. > ... > Any ideas? It's annoying to recall so much of the plot, but not > the title or author. Someone suggested "The Steel Rat" (or > something like that). I haven't read that, but it doesn't sound > familiar. This is "Mindkiller", by Spider Robinson. The paperback edition is just out; I think I bought the hardback in 1982. It is damn good. Re "The Steel Rat" -- somebody's memory was jiving around. The burglar (who officially doesn't exist) calls himself Templeton, after a rat in a children's book by E. B. White. Your friend took this recollection and spliced it with the title "The Stainless Steel Rat" by Henry Harrison. Regards, Chris Full-Name: Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 870-5853 ------------------------------ Date: Fri 15 Feb 85 22:29:17-EST From: Jonathan S. Intner Subject: _Mindkiller_ by Spider Robinson To: red@TOPAZ.ARPA Minor Spoiler of _Mindkiller_: There's no question in my mind about this story. It is without a doubt _Mindkiller_ by Spider Robinson (one of my favorite authors, of the Callahan's Place stories -- if you haven't read them, they are great! I can't remember the professor's name, but you have the plot almost perfectly. (When he attempts to commit suicide, he is saved by a "bad samaritan," a mugger saves him as he is about to jump off a bridge. Two things you've missed: her boss is her lover and he and the burglar are the same. There is also a good sequence where the professor is seduced by the mother of one of his students...he says to her that her son will graduate "Mama Cum Loudly" (boo, hiss) The story about the woman is from a short story he wrote (in the anthology _Time Traveler's Strictly Cash_) and is called, "God is an Iron." Spider Robinson writes in his afterword, "Only two things need to be said about this story, and the first is that it forms Chapter Two of my next novel, _Mindkiller_. The second is that, while the character of Karen Scholz is *not* drawn from life and is wholly imaginary, the business involving her father is *not* fiction. It is a transcript, as near verbatim as my memory will produce, of a story a woman told me in 1967. (And if she's still alive out there, I'd love to hear from her.) Animals like her father are not made up by writers for shock value; they exist. God is an iron...and that's a hot one." Jonathan Intner Systems Programmer working for CCIMS of Teachers College. Office: 241 Horace Mann Snail Mail: Box 43 Teachers College New York, N. Y. 10027 This represents my personal opinion only; it in no way reflects any kind of CCIMS policy. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Feb 85 00:34:56 CST From: Paul Milazzo Subject: Re: Here's another book that needs identification: To: ukma!red@topaz.ARPA (Red Varth) >"This book starts out about a professor whose wife has left him..." The story is of course Spider Robinson's MINDKILLER, and an excerpt called "God is an Iron" appeared in OMNI Magazine. I haven't read this book in a while, but your description matches what I remember. Most readers also seem to remember either the infamous bondage scene or the continual references to Jazz performances (both have merit). Say, what ever happened to Phyllis, anyway? She just vanished, and I was sort of sorry to see her go... My copy of MINDKILLER was published in 1983 by Berkley, ISBN 0-425-06288-0, from a 1982 hardback edition by Holt, Rinehart. Paul G. Milazzo Dept. of Computer Science Rice University, Houston, TX ------------------------------ From: ihuxp!wbpesch@topaz (Walt Pesch) Subject: Re: Here's another book that needs identification: Date: 17 Feb 85 21:46:32 GMT Yes, I know this one well. It is Mindkiller, by Spider Robinson (also of Stardance and Calahan's Crosstime Saloon). DEFINITELY one of my top ten favorite books (I can't decide past that point) and highly recommended, as is anything that he has done. And he also gives a history of "wireheading" in the Author's Preface. Walt Pesch AT&T Technologies ihnp4!ihuxp!wbpesch [Moderator's Note: Thanks to all the people who sent in similar information: Ray Fusci (Fusci%netman.DEC@decwrl) William Rucklidge (Utcs!wjr@topaz) Jody Patilla (Osiris!jcp@topaz) Monica Cellio (Mjc@cmu-cs-cad) Andrew Gideon (A.ANDY@SU-GSB-HOW) Jerry Duggan (duggan@UTAH-20) Rich Alderson (A.ALDERSON@[36.48.0.1]) Jerry Sweet (jsweet@uci-750a) Berry Kercheval (Zinfandel!berry@topaz) Rob MacLachlan (RAM@CMU-CS-C) John L. Romkey (Romkey@mit-borax) Mike Caplinger (mike@rice) MLY.G.SHADES%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC Ken Fineberg (Ncrcae!ken@topaz) William M. York (York@SCRC-QUABBIN) Greg Hennessy (Nmtvax!student@topaz) Michael D. Cooley (Cooley@nmtvax.UUCP) Anne Marie Quint [/amqueue] (quint@RU-BLUE) Morris M. Keesan (keesan@BBNCCI) ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu 14 Feb 85 23:54:14-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Stasheff Just spoke briefly to Christopher Stasheff, author of 'The Warlock in Spite of Himself. Though not familiar with the series myself, I think the list might like to hear about upcoming titles: "The Warlock Enraged" coming out of ACE in April 85 "The Warlock Wandering" just sent to publisher. "The Warlock is Missing" out June 86 1986 will also see the publication of "Her Majesties Wizard", a book Stasheff wrote back in 78', completely unrelated to the Warlock series and universe. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: Help finding a title Date: 15 Feb 85 00:06:35 GMT >Can anyone remember a book of short stories, at least 20 >n years old, containing "The Lady Who Sailed the Soul"? The lead >story and the book title were the same and had something to do with >drug expanded consciousness -- MindBender? MindBreaker? Something >like that. Any clues? THANKS!!!! I believe this is by C.M. >Kornbluth, from (sic) The Best Of C.M. Kornbluth. I didn't remember that "Lady" was in the anthology but I recognized your description as being "Mind Partner" by Christopher Anvil from the book MIND PARTNER AND 8 OTHER NOVELETS FROM GALAXY ed. by H. L. Gold. I have always been fond of "Mind Partner" as being one of the best drug-related stories. "Lady" follows it directly in the book. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 15 Feb 1985 22:09:50-PST From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks 223-9408) Subject: Group Mind stories Another "Group Mind" story is "Encounter Near Venus", author forgotten, which I read in my youth. This is a juvenile, but an excellent one. I vaguely recall another novel, involving telepathy, where a strong telepath would gather a group of people and begin to tell them a story, telepathically. The telepath would integrate the personas of his listeners as characters - the ultimate role playing game, with the telepath as DM. This was not portrayed as a good thing: the listeners (and the DM) would become so involved in the story they never bothered to eat, and usually died. The heroes of this novel were "good telepaths", who would use long distance ranging to find a circle of affected listeners, and then insert themselves in the game, make it go sour, and thereby break it up. This took exceptional will power, and if the "good telepath" failed, he or she might be dragged into the story and (eventually) die. Can't remember the title, I regret to say. Don't know if this is what you were looking for, but there is a book by D.G. Compton called "The Steel Crocodile", and the famous Harry Harrison "Stainless Steel Rat" series. - "We are the Warriors on the Edge of Time, and we're tired of making love..." "MAXSON%VAXWRK.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA" Mark Maxson / VAXworks / PKO2-1/M11 DEC /129 Parker St./ Maynard, MA/ 01754 ------------------------------ Date: Sat 16 Feb 85 10:54:11-PST From: Bill Subject: Group mind/racial memory "The Invincible," by Stanislaw Lem has an excellent and unique example of a species(for lack of a better word that isn't a spoiler) with a collective consciousness. The book is quite enjoyable, and, contains a rather fascinating analogue to evolution... B i l l ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (leeper) Subject: Followup to a number of articles Date: 14 Feb 85 02:26:15 GMT >From: victoro%Nosc@crash.ARPA Subject: Pointers please? > > >I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group >minds. Racial memory AND (to some extent) group minds are treated in the sf film QUATERMASS AND THE PIT (FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH). For group minds, the best piece is MIDWICH CUCKOOS by John Wyndham (made into the movie VILLAGE OF THE DAMNED). Also see MORE THAN HUMAN by Theodore Sturgeon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 85 8:15:32 EST From: Julian R. Long Subject: Help ! Book Title and Author search. HELP ! I am trying to find the title and author of a book i read 12 (ish) years ago . I may have the story confused with others i have read but here is the little you've got to go on . The story is set maybe on earth , a group of humanoids, ( who may later turn out to be insects !) live near the sea in a vast forest/jungle , i think they live in trees / foliage (?) . The story is told in the First person by one of the humanoids and i think it narrates his life , there is a question that is present throughout the story , something to do with where they come from or got to . There are battles with other tribes of similar humanoids the main target being food which is in short supply. In the end of the story our humanoid get into (burrows) a moth which lands on the top of the trees/foliage and which then flies to the moon where our humanoid turns into a fly ( man this sounds crazy ! but i'm sure i read it ) . I remember the jungle being full of nasty things they had to avoid like plants which eat you . Also every thing was very BIG ( or they were very small ) . Some of the humanoids had different functions in life , i remember a humanoid-type "designed" to carry things with a hunched back and funny arms . Maybe something to do with spiders , maybe it was set in the future ( where ever that is ? ) , post nuclear war ? Now i'm just guessing . That is all i remember . Anyone got any ideas please send to SF-LOVERS or if possible jlong@BBN-UNIX . Thank-you . Julain long . ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery) Subject: YA Identify This Story? Date: 13 Feb 85 22:04:10 GMT Well, here I am, yet again posting an identification request. Don't you wish net.sf-lovers came with a scroll of identify? The story was in Analog, I think it was a serial and I read an early part and the last part. It started with unkillable pink slime in a petri dish and ended with a bunch of supermen (actually I think a man and a woman) fleeing someone and slipping into a universe (!) charted as antimatter but which was actually safe. I don't remember much more about it. And they may have been two different stories with similar premises. Please ****** M A I L ****** me any responses. I am still trying to catch up on 60 net.sf-lovers articles; I don't want to add any more too soon. Brandon Allbery, decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa, "ncoast!bsa"@case.csnet (etc.) 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio 44131 +1 216 524 1416 (or what have you) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Feb 85 1002-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #65 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 65 Today's Topics: Books - Niven & Group Minds (2 msgs) & A Request, Films - Star Trek IV (6 msgs), Television - Quark, Miscellaneous - Japanese Animation & SF Book Club & New Tape/Disc Releases ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: utastro!ethan@topaz (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Niven Date: 19 Feb 85 15:19:24 GMT > Tree of life root will kill you if you are too old. What if you > start taking the youth-preserving drugs SOON enough? You are now > over 100, physically aged 26, and you find some tree of life root. > (Or rather, it finds you!) What happens? It killed the Hero didn't it? Moreover, we have it on the authority of the protector Teela Brown that it was because he was too old by many centuries even though he was physically still quite youthful. I'd take her word for it. After all she's much smarter and knowledgeable than any breeder. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas Austin, Texas 78712 ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci) Subject: Pointers please? Date: 15 Feb 85 18:26:41 GMT >From: > >I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group minds. This may not be exactly what you want, but how about _Dune_ by Frank Herbert? If you remember, the Reverend Mothers of the Sisterhood had the composite memories of all past Reverend Mothers, not to mention Paul and Alia, Leto and Ghanima, who had access to the minds of ALL their ancestors. David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar) St. Joseph's University Philadelphia {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci ------------------------------ From: unc!gibson@topaz (Bill Gibson) Subject: Re Group minds Date: 16 Feb 85 21:51:32 GMT >From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andrew Kenah, DTN 381-1576) > >Probably the best depiction of the group mind/racial memory idea is >Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End". (Highly recommended.) >Another novel that also considers the idea of the group mind is >Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human". (Also highly recommended.) A racial memory (referred to as 'the Recorder') plays an important role in the Gandalara Cycle, a series which Randall Garrett and Vickie Heydron (?sp) are writing. The series starts with 'The Steel of Raithskar'; the latest (6th) book is 'Return to Eddarta' (publication date in the front says March 1985). This series revolves around a culture which lives in a large desert region on an unspecified planet. More fantasy than SF, I guess. One of the most interesting aspects for me is the relationship between bipedals/human-types and sentient carnivore cats. These two groups act as sort of police/army in a society where few formal rules can be enforced. The books are (for me) very difficult to put down. Bill Gibson gibson@unc ...[akgua,decvax,philabs]!mcnc!unc!gibson ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 85 11:38:59 PST (Monday) From: Caro.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Titles Request - Computer Science Fiction #define CSF "Computer Science Fiction" I sometimes go on reading binges. Recently, I read ALL of the available Jack Vance science fiction. A couple of years ago I read all of Niven's "Known Space" series. Now I'd like to read all of the available CSF \THAT IS WORTH READING/. I realize that this is nearly impossible, since a lot of the really good computer science fiction is in short stories. So I am humbly requesting recommendations. CSF is a rather vague definition, so I will define the boundaries of my interest by example. So far, I have read: Novel: WHEN HARLEY WAS ONE, D. Gerrold Comment: barf, mostly trash -- "Do you roll-over afterwards?" -- gag! Novel: TRUE NAMES, V. Vinge Comment: the best - my standard for "worthiness" Novel: COMPUTER CONNECTION, A. Bester Comment: I don't care what the rabid Bester fans say, I LIKED this book. It has one of the best descriptions of JPL, albeit extrapolated into the future, that I have read (Benford did a good job too). Novel: THE WEB OF ANGELS, ??? Comment: I don't remember who wrote this. It was really three novellettes fused into a novel, or so it seemed to me. There are a couple of short stories that I read a long time ago whose titles I have forgotten, but they weren't that interesting anyway. Note that I am not interested in "robot" stories for this list (which is not to say that I am not interested in robot stories altogther! "Home is the Hangman" and most of Asimov's robot stories are among my favorites, but I don't consider them a part of the same sub-genre.) Send your suggestions to me, and I will forward a digest to the list. Thanks! "Your bits are MINE, loser! I will zero them SLOWLY!" Perry Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA ------------------------------ From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: George Takai commments on STIV Date: 15 Feb 85 14:52:44 GMT George Takai is in town for a ST Convention in Baltimore this weekend (Cockeysville, to be exact). In a brief telephone interview on a Washington, DC radio station he said that the next film (STIV) will be "much lighter in tone -- more fun" than the last two. He gave examples of "fun" episodes: The Trouble With Tribbles, Shore Leave... The announcer commented on how his wife was so upset after the last film (first the Beatles break up... now they burn the Enterprise!). Sulu said something to the effect that after STII people thought Spock was gone forever and that you can do lots of things in sci fi. Fred Avolio {decvax,seismo}!grendel!avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 85 17:35:07 EST From: Lear@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: ST4 / MY IDEA ST3 left our heros in an awkward position. They had a klingon ship and had blown up the Enterprise. I truly doubt that Kirk, Spock, and company will continue to trek around in this manner. Let's recall a few facts from Star Trek, the series and ST3: 1) Could anyone imagine SPOCK running around in a klingon ship?!? 2) In saving Spock, our heros did a service to the federation by showing how fast their new starships could be crippled, by capturing a Klingon ship (I would imagine they're a rather rare commodity), and (as Spock would say) saving a valued officer. 3) The Enterprise was going to be junked anyway. At least it died in the line of duty. 4) Let's not forget that Spock's family has a lot of weight in the Federation. For these reasons let us assume that kirk and the others beat the charges held against them. This leaves us with the next big question. What to do for a ship? Well, I do not believe that Kirk could get another constitution class vessel simply because most of them are or should be retired. This is why the Enterprise was to be lost in the first place. This leaves a lot of room for speculation. There is a grand opportunity to use The Guardian of Forever ( as has been done in at least one book). Until Next Time, Eliot Lear [LEAR@RU-BLUE.ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 18 Feb 1985 06:18:32-PST From: rcodyer%bailey.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Spock here,ready to beam up...) Subject: Star Trek 4 I"ve been reading some SF stuff on compuserve. A gentleman who has some inside info on the plot of Star Trek 4 posted it. According to him, the plot is around Kirks courtmartial (sound familiar?) for stealing and losing the Enterprise. He is also on trial for inadvertantly supplying the Klingons with information on the Genesis project. In the meantime, the crew that assisted him, although not on trial, are captured by the Klingons. Kirk manages to breakout and with "new" cast members, rescues the crew. I don't know whether Leonard Nimoy has a part in this movie or not, but I understand his character of Spock is on Vulcan still recovering. Nimoy directs this movie, and Shatner will be in it after holding out for $2 million. It's been suggested that this could be the last movie with the original show cast, if not the last movie period. Any other info out there? ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV plot ?? Date: 16 Feb 85 00:12:39 GMT I'm surprised that no one has come up with this one. Sarek is so happy that his son is back but was upset over jim losing his son and ship. Sarek then uses his considerable influence to get jim back in good standing with the federation or gets jim a ship from the vulcan science academy. And so, jim's back in business. How simple can you get? Random Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ From: uwvax!derek@topaz (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: Star Trek 4 Date: 18 Feb 85 18:05:49 GMT >According to him, the plot is around Kirks courtmartial (sound >familiar?) for stealing and losing the Enterprise. He is also on >trial for inadvertantly supplying the Klingons with information on >the Genesis project. In the meantime, the crew that assisted him, >although not on trial, are captured by the Klingons. Kirk manages >to breakout and with "new" cast members, rescues the crew. I don't >know whether Leonard Nimoy has a part in this movie or not, but I >understand his charachter of Spock is on Vulcan Good grief. I hope that this source is wrong. What a boring and stupid plot. I think of all the things that could be done with this movie and sigh to think that it may be just something like this. I say, just let Kirk, et. al. clear themselves of the charges quickly and cleanly (maybe giving it about as much time as Han Solo's rescue in Return of the Jedi), and let them all go off for adventure once again. If, as seems likely, this is indeed the last of the original cast, I think that they should be put to good use. Derek Zahn @ wisconsin {allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ From: reed!cthulu@topaz (Todd Ellner) Subject: Re: Re: Star Trek 4 Date: 14 Feb 85 23:49:03 GMT How about "The Trial"? Offhand I can think of about six crimes from the last movie that should have Kirk looking down his own sword at a court-martial. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Feb 85 15:52:51 EST From: Elliott C. Buchholz Subject: Quark Okay. A lot of stuff has been floating around about Quark (Which I happen to feel was an excellent spoof), so I might as well throw in my 2 cubits worth. I don't know how much of this has already been revealed, but here goes: QUARK set in 2226 The voyages of an interplanetary garbage scow, sent out by the U.G.S.P. (United Galaxy Sanitation Patrol), commissioned to clean up the Milky Way. Cast Captain Adam Quark.........................Richard Benjamin Betty I, co-pilot.........................Tricia Barnstable Betty II, clone, co-pilot....................Cyb Barnstable Ficus, the Vegaton, science officer..........Richard Kelton Gene/Jean, the transmute, chief engineer......Tim Thomerson Andy, the cowardly robot.......................Bobby Porter The Head, head of U.G.S.P.....................Allan Caillou Otto Palindrome, chief architect of Space Station Perma One, base for U.G.S.P..............Conrad Janis Music: Perry Botkin, Jr. Executive Producer: David Gerber Producer: Bruce Johnson Director: Hy Averback, Bruce Bilson, Peter H. Hunt Creator: Buck Henry NBC--February 24, 1978 - April 14, 1978 8 Episodes Now all I need is an episode guide. Maybe for Star Trek IV, Kirk can take control of Quark's ship, and have Ficus pollinate on/with Spock. Hmmm, subplots, subplots. Scotty and Gene/Jean in a lover's triangle...Nah! Oh, well. Elliott BUCHHOLZ@RU-GREEN ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!0607jj04@topaz (johnston) Subject: Japanese Animation Date: 11 Feb 85 15:24:10 GMT Salutations ( and other forms of greeting ) ! You'll have to forgive me (that is, I hope you will) for posting this on so many boards, but I thought a wider dispersion might bring some useful replies. I'd like to know if anyone out there has an interest in Japanese animation especially the histories, books, memorabilia, videos, etc. of 1) the YAMATO series films and TV serials (both the Japanese originals and the American cloned 'Star Blazers') 2) the GALAXY EXPRESS 999 TV serials 3) the 'MY YOUTH IN ARCADIA' serials and/or films 4) older Japanses animation, such as SPEED RACER. The quality of the artwork of these productions is outstanding, and this opinion can be supported by (almost) anyone who has viewed these productions. CREATION (c) conventions often invite dealers in Japanese science fiction animation to their events, but their selecton of memorabilia has only recently improved, and the amount of video they have available is nearly nil ! Any info you can spare will be GREATLY appreciated ! Let me know I'm not completely alone out here. "Can you read Japanese ?" "With artwork like this, does it really matter ???" JOhn JOhnston, YAMATO Flight Crew @ Saint Joseph's University, Philadelphia, Pa. ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB Date: 9 Feb 85 19:09:15 GMT > I've been in the book club twice now. > Overall my reaction to their selection is an old fashioned > "raspberry"! They have a few oldies but goodies, alot of current > (last two or three years), and VERY few new ones. Also, the new > ones are never available till after they make it to the > bookstores. In other words, go for the freebies when you sign-up, > but get out ASAP. > What we need is good old fashioned competition in the sci-fi > bookclub market!! I have to agree. I belonged to the book club briefly back in the early '60s, and joined again about 2-3 years ago. I've purchased very few books since rejoining, and recently got a form letter asking why I hadn't purchased any books recently, and did I still want to be on their mailing list? Typical recent offerings include every Stephen King book ever written, Star Trek and Star Wars novelizations, a fictional account of a Third World War by a retired military officer, and (as the above writer points out) VERY few hot new titles. The quality of the books themselves is mediocre: cheap paper, inexpensive binding, many typos in the text. I've decided to buy titles I'm interested in at my local bookstore in quality hardcover editions, and hang the SF Book Club membership. I can't really recommend this book club to anyone. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 19 Feb 1985 08:29-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: new tape/disc releases In a recent new catalog of tape and lsaer disc releases I observed that next month the following will be released. 1) Star Trek III 2) Buckaroo Banzai 3) about 12 Star Trek episodes Also, the JPL is issuing on Laser Disc the fourth in its series of photos from its Planetary Images series. This one includes a lot of Pioneer photos from the Jupiter/Saturn missions plus a 14 minute bit from the Viking Mars landing in 3D! The disc will include those wonderful glasses. It should be interesting. Wes Miller wesm@mitre.bedford ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Feb 85 1121-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #66 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 22 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 66 Today's Topics: Books - Gibson & Hartwell & Hodgell & Priest & Stasheff & Sucharitkul & Zelazny, Films - Computers in Films & Zardoz & The Road Warrior & A Boy and His Dog & John Saxon (2 msgs) & Best SF Films (2 msgs) & Worst SF Films, Television - Early TV (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: oliveb!long@topaz (Dave Long) Subject: Re: Neuromancer Date: 20 Feb 85 01:42:25 GMT "Neuromancer" is certainly a good book. Does anyone know if William Gibson has written anything else besides "Neuromancer", "Burning Chrome", and "Johnny Mnemonic"? In "Neuromancer", Molly Millions (from "Johnny Mnemonic") talks for a while about what happened to her and Johnny after the end of "Johnny Mnemonic". Is there any similar connection with "Burning Chrome"? (I have a hunch that the deck jockey might be the same one from "Burning Chrome", but I can't check it out right now.) Dave Long ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 1985 18:33:43-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: AGE OF WONDERS by David G. Hartwell Anybody seen and/or read a new non-fiction book by David G. Hartwell called AGE OF WONDERS? It seems to be a collection of opinions, ruminations, and anecdotes concerning his experiences with SF/Fantasy. If you've read it, is it good/lousy, interesting/tedious, objective/prejudiced, etc.? Thanks for any advice.... --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford ------------------------------ Subject: Re: "Godstalk" and P.C. Hodgell Date: 20 Feb 85 11:33:21 EST (Wed) From: Mike O'Brien I, too, would like info about who P.C. Hodgell is, and if there are any more books in the works by this person. The only thing harder than selling a first novel, these days, is selling a second novel - or so I hear. I'd like to see a second novel from this one. I've remarked in the past about how much new, good fantasy is coming out. Many of these authors seem to have a very firm grip on plotting and characterization, but most of the work is very derivative. I hope they'll grow out of this, but in the meantime, I'll take the good writing, derivative or not. So who's P.C. Hodgell? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 85 01:34:34 MST From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Christopher Priest's THE GLAMOUR It's tough to find books by Christopher Priest in this country. Fortunately I was able to purchase a British edition of Priest's seventh and most recent novel, THE GLAMOUR (Jonathan Cape: London, 1984). I say 'fortunately' both because I think THE GLAMOUR is Priest's best novel yet, and because the incredibly tactful blurb on this edition manages to avoid giving the story away and ruining much of the suspense, as many American editions do... Let me try to tell you enough about the book to make you want to read it, without giving the good parts away. Richard Grey is a TV cameraman with a reputation for getting film in situations where other people might be killed: street riots in Belfast, guerrilla war in Central America. He has a knack for making himself unobtrusive and unnoticed, which allows him to shoot candid and realistic footage for which he has won awards. One day his luck runs out -- walking home to his flat in London he passes a police station at the same time that a car bomb explodes. Several people die; Grey is horribly maimed, but survives. As the novel opens, Grey is gradually recovering the use of his body in a convalescent home, but his memory has failed him; he cannot recall any of the events in the six months preceding his ordeal. One day a woman comes to visit him and he learns that she was his lover in the time that is now hidden to him. As he grows to know her again, he begins to realize that there is something odd about her and her mysteriously distant ex-boyfriend... This oddness becomes so striking that by the end of the book the reader becomes thoroughly paranoid, but (as I discovered) perhaps not paranoid enough... The book has perhaps one weak point, and that is its coyness about revealing its central premise. It moves slowly, dwelling upon Grey's romance when the reader KNOWS something very strange is up. The final plot twist is so wickedly clever, however, that I'm more than willing to forgive the indulgence... Very originally handled, elegantly written, and chilling. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 16:06 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: Re: Christopher Stasheff > 1986 will also see the publication of "Her Majesties > Wizard", a book Stasheff wrote back in 78', completely unrelated > to the Warlock series and universe. Well, in 1979, "A Wizard in Bedlam" was published (and therefore written in 1978 at the earliest). While it is not immediately apparent that the book is related to the Warlock series, closer reading will show that one of the characters is Magnus d'Armand (son of Rod Gallowglass and Gwendelon); in fact, Magnus is the 'Wizard' of the title, and thus the book cannot be said to be unrelated at all. My suspicious mind cannot help noting the 'Wizard' in the new novel, and, given Stasheff's tendency to 'Warlock' novels for Rod, will have yielded to the same pattern in "Her Majesty's Wizard". Incidentally, in the 1982 printing of "The Warlock In Spite Of Himself", HMW was listed as 'forthcoming'. Ace Books is certainly taking its own sweet time getting it in print! Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ From: uiucdcs!friedman@topaz Subject: Re: Suckaritkul advice sought Date: 19 Feb 85 21:20:00 GMT I would recommend reading the books in this order: "Light on the Sound" "The Throne of Madness" "Utopia Hunters" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 15:38 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: New Amber Novel The new Amber novel, (THE?) TRUMPS OF DOOM, is due out from Arbor House in hardcover this May, according to AH sf editor David Hartwell. Watch for it. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1985 08:51:18-EST From: rachiele@NADC Subject: re: computers in films (microtrivia) There were DECMATES (or something similar, all decs look alike to me) all over the place in the BH police station.(1st generation?) Jim ------------------------------ From: dsd!ross@topaz (Evan Ross) Subject: Re: ZARDOZ Date: 19 Feb 85 22:11:28 GMT I saw this film about a year ago. It was about a group of sixties throwbacks who lived within a shielded area in the midst of post-devastation earth. It seems that they were immortal but wanted to die. Therefore they allowed Sean Connery to enter their world, which he eventually destroys. The entire film was quite dated by its use of late sixties-style costuming and sets. Evan Ross decwrl!amd!fortune!dsd!ross "To oppose something is to maintain it. To oppose vulgarity is inevitably to be vulgar." ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 1985 18:20:02-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: "The Road Warrior" Alastair Milne recently mentioned that "Mad Max" and other similar films were surely among the worst our genre has to offer. Though I agree for most of the titles he listed, I MUST take exception where "The Road Warrior" is concerned. C'mon, Alastair, this was a fine movie! Though it arose from a mixture of two of the most cliche-ridden genres in film, the car-chase movie and the SF movie, the film itself contained surprisingly few cliches. It featured interesting, non-cardboard characters, and a protagonist who actually evolved during the course of the movie! But more important is the fact that this movie was dealing in archetypes, just like "Star Wars." And I think it dealt with them quite successfully. Max is a great protagonist, struggling against his past and his fears, struggling to once more have faith in at least SOME human beings. (Please note that I'm talking about "The Road Warrior" and NOT "Mad Max!") I went to see this movie with fairly low expectations, and came away absolutely delighted! Apparently something similar happened for a lot of us when we saw "The Terminator," but I would put "The Road Warrior" way above "The Terminator." I see now that they're filming yet a third Mad Max movie; I'll doubtless go see it, and again my hopes won't be high. But who knows? Perhaps I'll be unexpectedly delighted once more. More opinions, anyone? --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford ------------------------------ From: smu!jay@topaz Subject: A Boy and His Dog Date: 19 Feb 85 16:14:00 GMT Great movie. I saw it a long time ago in Dallas actually replayed in a theater. It feels like a made-for-tv movie, but it's still good. The thing I loved most of course was the ending. Absolutely Perfect Scene!! *** SPOILER *** The hero is escaping and this girl wants to come along. You wonder if you should have a happy-all's-well ending. Then the boy and his dog leave their camp after a nice dinner. Guess who was the dinner? Would someone please expand this ending to it's full glory? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 07:32 PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: John Saxon >From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random) > The heavy is John Saxon. He plays a lot of bad guys and even the > occasional good guy. He has been in a lot of SF (good and bad). > The first ones that come to mind are _Planet Earth_, _Genesis II_ > and a third one that I can't remember the name of. They all deal > with a post-holocaust (sp?) world where the only technical and > peaceful group left is called Pax. Not bad movies on the whole. A > little standard on the plots but worth a couple hours on saturday > afternoon. Sorry, but Saxon was NOT in Genesis II. This was another Roddenberry pilot which starred Alex Cord. Planet Earth was the second pilot, with Saxon replacing Cord as Dylan Hunt, a relic (via suspended animation) of the twentieth century. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 14:14 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: John Saxon andGGgnenesis II > The heavy is John Saxon. He plays a lot of bad guys and even the > occasional good guy. He has been in a lot of SF (good and bad). > The first ones that come to mind are _Planet Earth_, _Genesis II_ > and a third one that I can't remember the name of. They all deal > with a post-holocaust (sp?) world where the only technical and > peaceful group left is called Pax. First of all, John Saxon was not in Genesis II, though the same character was in both films. I don't remember the actors' name from Genesis II, (Gary something I think) But I do remember that I liked him better than Saxon in the role. Second of all, these movies are conceived and, I think, directed by none other than Gene Roddenbury Himself. Also, in Genesis II, Majel Barrett Roddenbury, (aka Nurse Chapel, Number One) was in it, tho a bit part. Also, the woman in the Jim Garner Poloroid ads (I can never remember her name) is in it, as a genetically engineered human with two belly buttons. The story was about a man who is frozen for medical reasons, but soon afterwards an earthquake collapses the underground building he is in. He is awakened after the holocaust by an enclave of people trying to keep science and civilization alive. This is the group called Pax. They are able to cure his disease. He joins them and some adventure occurs involving going out into the wilderness, the nature of which escapes me. Planet Earth is the sequel to this. It involves some Amazons that keep male slaves, but I don't remember much about it, except that John Saxon seduces the leader of the Amazons. Brett Slocum HI-MULTICS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Best SF Films Date: 20 Feb 85 20:16:37 GMT You had a good idea, but your execution was poor. Your list is ok, but if you prefer soft core porno to sf, we part company. Your list should drop Barbarella and add the three greatest sf films of all time: Destination Moon 2001 Star Wars Sure Star Wars is more than sf. So is Barbarella. "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Best SF Films Date: 20 Feb 85 20:18:32 GMT p.s.: Damn! I forgot Blade Runner. "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1985 1707 GMT From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. Subject: Yet another bad movie Although they aren't exactly science fiction, the Mexican SAMSON series of films are notable for their excruciating badness and unintentional hilarity. I believe they were made in the late 50's or early 60's at the Churubusco studios in Mexico, and then dubbed into english for the American market by K. Gordon Murray. SAMSON AND THE VAMPIRE WOMEN is the one title I can recall; it still shows up sometimes on late night TV in L.A. Samson, our hero, is a professional wrestler by day and a scourge of evildoers by night. He runs around dressed in a mask, cape, and leotard (the same outfit he wears in the ring) his beer belly hanging out over his belt. Every time he gets into a fight with the bad guys, they beat the crap out of him. Definitely worth seeing if it comes your way. Bill Weisman Information Processing Center JPL/Caltech Pasadena, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 20 Feb 1985 03:40:34-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: SF show from the 50's > From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (Mark Leeper) > Now let me ask a really obscure one. I remember around 1955 or > 1956 watching a show with someone having a machine with a window > that could see the past (or future?) I think that they could also > step through the window. I vaguely remember the show, but have > never seen a reference to it anywhere. It sounds like the movie THE TIME TRAVELLERS, although that wasn't made until 1964. Gary Gerani's FANTASTIC TELEVISION mentions a show involving time travel that was on in 1955, called CAPTAIN Z-RO. Perhaps that's it. It was slightly before my time, so I have no memory of it, myself. You might also be thinking of a particular episode of the anthology series SCIENCE FICTION THEATER. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 20 Feb 1985 06:12:54-PST From: minow%rex.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Obscure 50s tv Mark Leeper asks about a 50s tv serial that included a "window on the past." I'm pretty sure he is referring to Captain Video -- midway through the evening's adventures, they would say "let's look in on what's happening on Earth" (and, since they're out in space and light takes a long time to get there, thye're looking at what's happening a few years back). Then, they would run an episode from a cowboy-and-indian serial. Ahh memories. Martin Minow ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Feb 85 1145-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #67 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 23 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 67 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE PRISONER ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael S. Weiss) Subject: Re: What is "The Prisoner"? Date: 12 Feb 85 01:15:24 GMT > One thing I always felt was a bit "off" in THE PRISONER: With a > number like "6". I always thought it would have been better if he > had been "Number 47" or "Number 238" or something, instead of > "Number 6". Everything they did was part of the plan to send him over the edge so he would talk. Giving him a high number, but no control I thought was very clever. A bit of a mind twist. Also, I feel that most (95%) of the people there are trying to break number 6, so that would make him very high man on the Village totem pole. "I am not a number!" -Number Six -Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss ------------------------------ Date: 13 Feb 85 10:08:48 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns From: Conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA > The only thing that bugs me about the show is ROVER, the balloon- > like entity which guards the perimeter of the village. The way I > see it, they needed a believable way to keep the very clever No. 6 > from escaping the island, but is this really believeable? Or am I > being unreasonably picky? > Any thoughts on this? This is what I got from the interview on TV Ontario... Rover was originally a remote controlled "robot vehicle" that actually flipped around, went into water, etc. and did other neat things. However, during the filming of one of the early episodes, Rover went into water, and stayed there. Not being able to fix it in time, the crew was in the jam. Then someone looked up at the sky and saw a weather balloon, and that became rover. PM thought that it came out better with the new Rover than some kind of a mechanical vehicle. Incidentally, there is a Prisoner novel that you could buy, provided you look really hard....I think it's written by Tom Disch. Daniel Conde conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ttidcb!jackson@topaz (Dick Jackson) Subject: Location of the Village - SPOILER LAST EPISODE Date: 14 Feb 85 16:24:32 GMT The Village (as opposed to Portmerion) was located in England on the South coast. In the last episode, immediately following his escape from the Village, #6 somehow gets a ride on a well known highway which runs into London. My memory is very dim, I think it was the A20 which goes down to, hmm let me see . . . Kent? Sussex? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 85 10:50 CST From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: The Prisoner (Game) No discussion of the Prisoner should omit the games for the Apple; the first one was about the cleverest use of low-res graphics ever. For those who have not been exposed to them, the games capture the spirit of the show in excellent fashion. They were produced by a company called Edu-Ware, which I believe is now defunct. As with most Apple games, pirated copies abound, alas; these were two games which were worth the money. ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci) Subject: The Prisoner Date: 12 Feb 85 16:34:39 GMT [ #6: Whose side are you on? #2: That would be telling! ] >I propose we move it to net.tv. I do love it and want to get a >rollicking discussion going about it. Re: episode 7, I have seen >it so what do you have to say? And how do you *know* where the >Village is? > >-Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss > ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss Sounds like a good idea to me, Mike, that is, to move it to net.tv. From now on that is where I will look for discussion. Point well made re: How do I *know* where the Village is. I guess I don't *know* where it is. I should know by now that nothing, repeat NOTHING, is ever as it seems in this show. But I can tell you how I *think* I know. ***** ALERT!! ALERT!! SPOILER APPROACHING!! ******* In episode 7, did not No. 6 and his old colleagues trace the route he had sailed and determine using various scientific methods that his point of departure must have been the Baltic coast of Lithuania? And did he not fly in the jet to that very spot when he was dropped like a hot potato? It seems to me that this is pretty convincing evidence, but I do concede that there is always a 'bug' lying dormant in evidence like this. By the way, do you (or anyone else) have any ideas about the 'funny-umbrellas' or the old-fashioned bicycle. viz. significance? I hope we're not going to dominate this discussion. David J. Iannucci (the dirty vicar) St. Joseph's University Philadelphia {allegra | astrovax | bpa | burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci ------------------------------ From: ukc!msp@topaz (M.S.Parsons) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 14 Feb 85 12:28:11 GMT mgh@hou5h.UUCP (Marcus Hand) writes: >The village used in the prisoner is in Cornwall, the >southwestern-most county of england where its always damp, rarely >snows except on the moors and generally has some pretty lush and >interesting vegetation. The actual village's name escapes me at >present, so I'll look on a map when I get home and see if I >remember the name. No! NO! The village is in Wales, UK, a place called Port Merian (Not sure of the spelling.) Mike Parsons UUCP: ..{ucl-cs,cfg,edcaad,mcvax,kcl-cs}!ukc!msp msp@ukc.UUCP JANET:MSP%UKC%{EDXA,UCL-CS}.. MSP@UKC.AC.UK Mail: Computing Lab, University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, England. ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!kelem@topaz Subject: The Village, revisited Date: 13 Feb 85 21:23:39 GMT I noticed that there were several explanations of where The Village was located. One was correct, one close, and one placed the Village in the wrong country. The Prisoner was filmed at the Italianate village of Portmeirion, county Gwynedd, Wales. Portmeirion is on Cardigan Bay, in Snowdonia National Park, about 8 miles southwest of Blenau Ffestiniog. It's not far from Llanfairpwlgwyngwllgogyrychwyrndrobyllllantysiliogogogoch on the Isle of Anglesey. (remember, in Welsh pronunciation: ll=a mixture of L and TH, w=oo as in "moon", y=short i as in "with".) The village contains a hotel (I stayed on a farmhouse nearby, so I don't know how much it costs to stay there.) that served as the grounds of The Village. The village is beautiful and great fun to run around in after having seen The Prisoner several times. Number 6's quarters are occupied by a shop run by the Six of One Society. One of The Village taxis is owned by the man running the shop and a penny-farthing bicycles is outside Number 6. Souvenirs, pictures, buttons, newsletters, and memberships in the society can be purchased there. Down at the beach is the "stone boat" that showed up in several of the episodes. The "boat" is really an extension of the walkway, built up to make it look like a boat. If you go at low tide, you can see an incredible stretch of sand exposed as the water empties out of the bay. Recommendation: If you're going to Britain, don't skip Wales. ------------------------------ From: gondor!weiss@topaz (Michael S. Weiss) Subject: The Prisoner finds a home Date: 12 Feb 85 02:01:21 GMT Does anyone know if there is any prisoner paraphenalia (sp?) around and where to get it? I would like the id button (the big tricycle) especially. "I am not a number!" -Number Six -Michael "on the Twilight Node" Weiss ...!psuvax1!gondor!weiss ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 85 11:01:04 PST (Monday) Subject: Prisoner: Penny Farthing bicycle From: conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA The Penny Farthing bicycle seen on each Villager's badge, as well as being a general symbol of the show, is supposed to symbolize how the small wheel (the common man) is pulled by the large wheel (society in general). According to Stan Tenen (who hosted the show when it was on KQED, San Francisco) 7 years ago when he came to visit our Prisoner club, one of the early showings of the Prisoner had the end title of the bicycle dissolve into a picture of the earth with the moon orbiting it. This was also supposed to show the tug of earth's gravity prevented the moon from going elsewhere on its own. (Please..no Space 1999 comments). I think I the same thing after Fall Out, but you may want to keep any eye for it during the current run on KTEH, San Jose and elsewhere. Also of note is the pyramid with the eye seen in the court room during Fall Out. When that was shown, the authors of the Illuminati series came to the show to discuss how the symbol is seen everywhere. The show seems to have many obvious and not so obvious symbols strewn about. As a matter of fact, the reading list at the end of the "Prisoner Puzzle" from TV Ontario has Carl Jung's "Man and His Symbols" as a recommended text for studying the series. Some people may carry the analysis of symbols too far, but it's still fun to talk and think about. Incidentally, I wrote to TV Ontario about 7 years ago for a copy of the Prisoner Puzzle, but they won't send it to you unless you are an educational TV station or the like. Perhaps you could encourage your local TV station to acquire it for you. Then they could go sell it to you during a pledge drive. Dan "A Still Tongue Keeps a Happy Life" Conde, No. Sqrt(-1) conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ From: imsvax!heyman@topaz (Hank Heyman) Subject: Re: Commando Cody, Flash Gordon, V and Otherworld (TV) Date: 14 Feb 85 17:10:37 GMT While The Prisoner TV show is interesting and has some SF elements, it is only marginally SF. I didn't think it was so good because if they wanted the information so bad, they would have just tortured him which is what the Nazis did. Hank Heyman, IMS, Rockville, MD ------------------------------ From: saber!msc@topaz (Mark Callow) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 18 Feb 85 23:58:22 GMT > The village used in the prisoner is in Cornwall, the > southwestern-most county of england where its always damp, rarely > snows except on the moors and generally has some pretty lush and > interesting vegetation. Nonsense. The Village is Port Merion in North Wales, which isn't a real village. Port Merion is a holiday resort; each building contains several rooms or apartments of what is basically a large and somewhat unusual hotel. It was built in an Italianesque style by Sir Clough Williams-Ellis. I was there in August. Sadly it had an air of faded glory and was in need of painting. It's still interesting to visit though. They have a Prisoner souvenir shop in Number 6's cottage. Very little of the Prisoner was actually filmed there. A set was built at the studio. From the TARDIS of Mark Callow msc@saber.UUCP, saber!msc@decwrl.ARPA ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!saber!msc, ...{amd,ihnp4,ittvax}!saber!msc ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: Re: The Prisoner's village Date: 19 Feb 85 13:13:20 GMT The Village, as it was called, is indeed PortMeiron. A long and very pictorial essay on this village was included in a previous issue of the American journal "Fantasy Empire." This village was also used for the filming of the Dr. Who classic, "Masque of Mandragora." ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 19 Feb 85 13:19:40 GMT The Prisoner does return. Several episodes have been released on videotape, and can be mail-ordered, or bought in any store. You can also buy the three books written in the late Seventies... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 14:03 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Prisoner Books The Prisoner books are as follows: The Prisoner by Thomas M. Disch, New English Library, 1980?, pb The Prisoner: A Day in the Life by Hank Stine, NEL, 1981?, pb The Prisoner: Who is Number Two? by David McDaniel, NEL, 1982?, pb (also published by ACE as The Prisoner: Number Two?) The copyright notices in these books mention that these were all published by ACE from 1969-1970. I have read the first one, and it does very well at capturing the essence of the series. And it starts after the series. I bought these within the last two years so you should be able to get them at your local SF specialty bookstore, or any store that will order for you. . In Minneapolis, we have Uncle Hugo's Science Fiction Bookstore, named for Hugo Gernsback. Brett Slocum ARPA: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz (john) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Date: 9 Feb 85 17:56:00 GMT The only thing certain about episode #7 was that the pilot knew where the village was. Since the pilot was the one who ejected #6 it is possible that he was one of them. You cannot assume that the pilot found the village by following #6's instructions which means that they may or may not be valid. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ From: hou4a!mab@topaz (Michael Brochstein) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 21 Feb 85 15:22:26 GMT I have been to The Village, it really exists ! As many of you know, in the last episode of The Prisoner the credits list the hotel where it was filmed. It is in Portmarion which is on the coast in Wales. It is indeed intersting to "walk" in The Village. It also shows how hollywood can make things look very different in real life and in person. The main features of the village do exist but reality is more down to earth. The boat in concrete is there as are all the other architectural items from the TV show. They are just smaller and juxtaposed differently in real life. You can by a number 6 button for your jacket in the "Village Shop" but the only other Prisoner souvenirs consist of one paperback book aimed at younger readers. I truly recommend a drive to the village not only to see it but to see another side of Britain which is not overun by tourists. It is out of the way but a very pleasent trip through beautiful countryside. Michael Brochstein AT&T Information Systems, Holmdel, NJ ihnp4!hou4a!mab (201) 834-3482 ------------------------------ From: pete%stc-c.gb.UUCP@topaz (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 21 Feb 85 17:23:54 GMT Actually---- The Village is in North Wales. It is called Portmeirion and was built in the early part of this century by an eccentric architect name of Sir William Clough-Ellis. If you want to find it on the map, Portmadoc is the nearest town. Since the series' recent reshowing on Channel 4 TV, it is now possible to get all kinds of cutsie souvenirs there. (It costs about #1.50 to get in). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Feb 85 1218-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #68 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 23 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs) & Varley, Films - Best SF Films & A Boy and His Dog & Worst SF Movies & Battle Beyond the Stars (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 20 Feb 1985 16:17:17-PST From: lionel%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: Piers Anthony I've enjoyed Piers Anthony's Xanth books, his Cluster trilogy (with a related book Viscous Circle), the Blue Adept/Split Infinity/ Juxtaposition trilogy, etc., but there's one Anthony novel that surpasses all of these. It is the first novel of his I ever read, and it was maybe 10 years before I saw another. The title is Macroscope and it is awesome. Macroscope is about a device called a macroscope, naturally, that is like a telescope except that it sees "macrons", particles that travel faster than light. It is discovered that someone is broadcasting a macronic signal that kills if you watch it. The story relates the efforts to solve the secret of the signal, what and who is behind it. I don't want to say more for fear of spoiling it, but it is a far more "significant" piece of work than any of Anthony's I've seen since. I wish he'd do another one as good. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ From: byucsa!chris@topaz (Chris J. Grevstad) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 21 Feb 85 01:07:25 GMT Jeffrey Allred: >Anyone got any opinions on Piers Anthony? I think he's great. His >best work is done with the Xanth series. Anybody have an up to the >day list of his works? I disagree about the Xanth series being his best. I feel that the Blue Adept trilogy is better, a little less forced (definitely in terms of puns). I do enjoy his style in the fantasy genre. I have read some of his hardcore sci-fi and I don't care for it. As for an up to date list, this man is a voluminous writer, so much so that he could write under a pseudonym much as S. King has claimed to have done, just so he won't glut the market with Anthony books. I coudn't begin to list the number of books he has written. Speaking of fantasy, a novel I have liked for a long time is 'The Dragon and the George' by Gordon R. Dickson. Very humorous look at knights and dragons and magic and such. Chris Grevstad {ihnp4,noao,mcnc,utah-cs}!arizona!byucsa!chris ------------------------------ From: spock!bbrick@topaz (Bill Brickman '88 ) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony *SEMI-SPOILER* Date: 20 Feb 85 20:47:33 GMT Here are some books by Piers Anthony that you should read before making any opinions about his style of writing. The Apprentice Adept: Incarnations of Immortality: Battlecircle: Split Infinity On a Pale Horse Sos the Rope Blue Adept Bearing An Hourglass Var the Stick Juxtaposition With a Tangled Skein Neq the Sword Wielding a Red Sword Mute Being a Green Mother Omnivore Orn Macroscope Kirlian Quest Rings of Ice OX These books show a serious but still good side of Piers Anthony's writings. The character is still a thinking/acting/self-conscience person, but the background in which the character lives/dies/thinks is more dangerous or more complex than the Xanth characters, and the endings are not always ..lived happily ever after. In _M_u_t_e the ending does not seem to comply with the story until you reread it. The main character does not "win" , but the human race is bettered. Now that I've told the basic ending , I have to tell the story. The main character is a mutant who has the incredible power (i.e. Talent ! ) to ... Well maybe I would give that away, but I will tell you that the plot basically is founded on little situations , like in a quest, that the main character thinks through. In the Incarnation series the main characters are again people with incredible powers (talents again) that make up the Five Incarnations. They are Death, Time, Fate, Nature, and War. The characters again do the same thing. They think out ways to get around problems , using their powers to get out of tight spots. These books are excellent !!! I thought the endings for these books, even if he is using the old formula, were great. All the books in that list , under Incarnations are excellence, even if only the first two are acually out. I thought the first two were great, so the next must be even better (This is the opposite of what happened to the Xanth novels. I hope ...). I sincerely hope that you read these books on the list above (all of them !) and enjoy all. Thanks , Bill Brickman P.S. Does anybody like Anne McCaffrey??? Eddings??? Frank Herbert??? PLEASE write something. Don't be afraid to ask questions either. Just write something about them. ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: Beowulf S. + Louis W. Date: 15 Feb 85 23:59:52 GMT The relationship between Bey Schaefer and Louis Wu? I don't have any of my books here, so I can't quote directly, but: 1. Beowulf Shaefer and Sheroll (sp?) want to have a kid 2. Due to Earth's genetic laws, they cannot have a child on Earth- Bey is an albino 3. Sheroll is a "Flatlander" of the literal type... terrified of travelling through space. Therefore, Bey and Sheroll cannot have children. 4. Carlos Wu has an "unlimited fatherhood certificate", or something like that. As a certifiable genius, he is allowed to have as many children as he desires, without interference from Earth's population control laws. 5. As a friend of Bey, Carlos agrees to make Sheroll pregnant, a great honor, as Carlos' "Services" are much in demand. (sigh...) I can't remember the name of the short story that covers all this, but it's the one where a Jinxian scientist has a captive black hole, and uses it for piracy. Bey, inbound to Earth, meets Carlos, outbound, after Sheroll becomes pregnant. PLEASE, DON'T POST THE NAME OF THE STORY... I can look it up at home, and if anyone really want to know the name, mail me. Lets not clutter up the net with this! The puppeteers (sp?) didn't tell Louis of the relationship, as, to a herd critter, none existed. I feel that biology would be more to their interest, rather than who the mother was running around with. It does tend to drive a "Known Spacer" crazy, though... Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz Subject: re: "There is a Tide" and Louis Wu Date: 19 Feb 85 11:17:15 GMT > From: unc!ericksen (Jim Ericksen) >> "Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story. >> The former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars >> Louis Wu... >> >> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) > > Well, you're almost right. It was Louis's father, > Carlos Wu. No, I'm *completely* right. Check again (in TALES OF KNOWN SPACE). And while you're at it, check the end of the introduction in that book to see who helped Niven with the Known Space timeline. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@topaz (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Niven's Characters Date: 18 Feb 85 17:50:27 GMT jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington) writes: >> Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what >> ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer? He is by far my favorite >> Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what >> happens to him. > >You never know, niven may be planning more stories. I sure hope so. No, he is not(at least presently), he has stated that he is done with the "Tales of Known Space" universe, since it is now >> too difficult to maintain consistancy over so many stories. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua} !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or quad1!psivax!friesen ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: re: query Date: 21 Feb 85 02:58:15 GMT >> Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material other >> than: >> >> TITAN >> WIZARD >> DEMON >> Picnic on Nearside >> Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?) >> Millenium >> The Persistence of Vision > >The only one you've left out that I know of is _The Barbie >Murders_. It's up to his usual standard. Enjoy. Actually, I believe that _Picnic on Nearside_ is just a reprint of _the Barbie Murders_. In the same vein, there is a book called _In the Hall of the Martian Kings_ which is a reprint (English) of _The Persistence of Vision_. Muffy ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: Best SF Films Date: 21 Feb 85 04:53:58 GMT At the risk of boring most people who know me, I would say that the science fiction film that has impressed me the most for its sophisticated ideas and quality of narrative is QUATERMASS AND THE PIT, known in this country by the forgetable title FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH. In this the British start by digging a subway tunnel in London and by the end of the film they have explanations for telekinesis, ghosts, race memories, race prejudice, similar myths in different cultures, and a heck of a lot more. The BBC tv-play, shown at Seacon, was even better than the film and a little less cryptic at times. I cannot remember reading a novel as thought provoking as this film. The story was by Nigel Kneale, one of a series of tv-plays he did revolving around a fictional rocket scientist, Bernard Quatermass. Incidently, while I have your attention, anyone out there know where I can get a VHS copy of a very good and almost unknown science fiction film called UNEARTHLY STRANGER. It is quite a good science fiction tale and done in black and white with no special effects at all. That is probably why it disappeared. Watch for it, though. It is really worth it. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: SF movies Date: 21 Feb 85 04:19:54 GMT callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >Doesn't anyone remember A BOY AND HIS DOG? Come on now!! Sure, I remember it. The scenes above ground were decent. Then it turned into a pretentious bore. This *thing* won the hugo based on Harlan Ellison's name, but if it has been written by Otto Schwartz it would be really forgotten by now. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: More Bad Movies Date: 21 Feb 85 04:35:51 GMT >From: Steve Dennett >All this talk about bad SF films has reminded me of three films I >saw (and thankfully, quickly forgot.) Two of them I can't remember >the titles for, but if anyone else saw them, perhaps they'll >remember. > >1. "The Final Programme", based on one of Michael Moorcock's Jerry > Cornelius books. This was known in the US as LAST DAYS OF MAN ON EARTH and as THE FINAL PROGRAMME in the UK. >2. "Triad(???)", was a big budget film, starring (I believe) Paul > Neuman. This was Robert Altman's QUINTET, starring Paul Newman. >3. Title Unremembered - This one came out about the same time as > "Battle Beyond the Stars." It was sort of an ALIEN ripoff; a > space ship lands on a planet to retrive a crystal (or > something). The crew must make there way into a huge > pyramid/mountain. In the caverns they meet their worst fears > come alive (i.e., the woman who has claustrophobia is crushed > in a palpitating cavern). Worst scene: another of the women is > killed by her worst fear; she is raped by a giant snail (I kid > you not) that slimes off her clothes (for a flash of bare flesh > to wake the audience), and dies moaning. Best known as GALAXY OF TERROR but also released under the titles MINDWARP: AN INFINITY OF TERROR and PLANET OF HORRORS. It was made by New World Pictures in 1981, the same folks who made BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS the previous year. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: uokvax!emjej@topaz Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever Date: 16 Feb 85 03:00:00 GMT >My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars". I have not seen >this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female >character who has quite large breasts. > >Any comments?? Yes... 1. Down here in darkest Oklahoma, we call it "John-Boy Saves the Universe," by virtue of its starring Richard Thomas. 2. When I saw it on NBC, they had the ill grace to black out certain portions of some scenes, so I can't vouch for the redeeming factor. (Darn it!) "Live fast, fight hard, and have a beautiful death..." James Jones ------------------------------ From: ctvax!rob@topaz Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever Date: 20 Feb 85 17:09:00 GMT Another redeeming factor of 'Battle Beyond the Stars', aka 'The Seven Aliens' and 'The Magnificent Seven Aliens' is the fact that Robert Vaughn played the same character he played in the 'The Magnificent Seven'. Viewed as a parody, on the retelling of the 'Seven' story, I found it amusing, but it was a long time ago that I saw it. "I'll have what you're having. I want to get loaded too." Rob Spray ...convex!ctvax!rob ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: Re: Scarf issue. Date: 19 Feb 85 13:34:32 GMT I posted a rather unhelpful note on the trek network that tells every piece of information available about the scarf. The pattern was in the last issue of the poorly named, "Whovian Times," and the scarf should be anywhere from 12-20 feet. As to those original Pertwees, many stations ran a different package of only 14 out of the 24 adventures. Then Lionheart conceived their "Grand Master Plan," as I call it. A number of stations in the country just started all the Pertwees on precisely Jan. 1st. This is in an attempt to synchronise participating stations with the eventual object of... SHOWING THE HARTNELLS AND TROUGHTONS! That's right, folks, they've finally gotten round to it! There's an unpleasant side of the coin, though. * Colin Baker will not be seen on Public Television for a couple of years, in which time they'll have a few seasons to show. * The Davison package will inexplicably lose the "Caves of Androzani," because it leads into a Doctor that isn't there, and because Lionheart wants to edit the regeneration to make it more obvious (Shades of Howard Da Silva...) Hang on to your copies of that one, folks. ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: Re: Dr Who Date: 19 Feb 85 13:47:17 GMT The episode to which you are referring is in fact, "The Dalek Master Plan." It was a twelve parter with a 1 episode prequel that didn't feature the Doctor. What do you mean it's regained its chameleon ability? That had best not be permanent. There was a huge letter writing campaign last year against changing the familiar Police Box, which John Nathan-Turner thought was better known than a real police box, and thus subverting British history. He finally promised it would never change! Somehow, it'll break down again, I'm sure, and we'll have that old blue box again... Or else I'll commit suicide like the officers of the Australian Dr. Who fan club... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Feb 85 1218-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #68 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 23 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs) & Varley, Films - Best SF Films & A Boy and His Dog & Worst SF Movies & Battle Beyond the Stars (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 20 Feb 1985 16:17:17-PST From: lionel%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: Piers Anthony I've enjoyed Piers Anthony's Xanth books, his Cluster trilogy (with a related book Viscous Circle), the Blue Adept/Split Infinity/ Juxtaposition trilogy, etc., but there's one Anthony novel that surpasses all of these. It is the first novel of his I ever read, and it was maybe 10 years before I saw another. The title is Macroscope and it is awesome. Macroscope is about a device called a macroscope, naturally, that is like a telescope except that it sees "macrons", particles that travel faster than light. It is discovered that someone is broadcasting a macronic signal that kills if you watch it. The story relates the efforts to solve the secret of the signal, what and who is behind it. I don't want to say more for fear of spoiling it, but it is a far more "significant" piece of work than any of Anthony's I've seen since. I wish he'd do another one as good. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ From: byucsa!chris@topaz (Chris J. Grevstad) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 21 Feb 85 01:07:25 GMT Jeffrey Allred: >Anyone got any opinions on Piers Anthony? I think he's great. His >best work is done with the Xanth series. Anybody have an up to the >day list of his works? I disagree about the Xanth series being his best. I feel that the Blue Adept trilogy is better, a little less forced (definitely in terms of puns). I do enjoy his style in the fantasy genre. I have read some of his hardcore sci-fi and I don't care for it. As for an up to date list, this man is a voluminous writer, so much so that he could write under a pseudonym much as S. King has claimed to have done, just so he won't glut the market with Anthony books. I coudn't begin to list the number of books he has written. Speaking of fantasy, a novel I have liked for a long time is 'The Dragon and the George' by Gordon R. Dickson. Very humorous look at knights and dragons and magic and such. Chris Grevstad {ihnp4,noao,mcnc,utah-cs}!arizona!byucsa!chris ------------------------------ From: spock!bbrick@topaz (Bill Brickman '88 ) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony *SEMI-SPOILER* Date: 20 Feb 85 20:47:33 GMT Here are some books by Piers Anthony that you should read before making any opinions about his style of writing. The Apprentice Adept: Incarnations of Immortality: Battlecircle: Split Infinity On a Pale Horse Sos the Rope Blue Adept Bearing An Hourglass Var the Stick Juxtaposition With a Tangled Skein Neq the Sword Wielding a Red Sword Mute Being a Green Mother Omnivore Orn Macroscope Kirlian Quest Rings of Ice OX These books show a serious but still good side of Piers Anthony's writings. The character is still a thinking/acting/self-conscience person, but the background in which the character lives/dies/thinks is more dangerous or more complex than the Xanth characters, and the endings are not always ..lived happily ever after. In _M_u_t_e the ending does not seem to comply with the story until you reread it. The main character does not "win" , but the human race is bettered. Now that I've told the basic ending , I have to tell the story. The main character is a mutant who has the incredible power (i.e. Talent ! ) to ... Well maybe I would give that away, but I will tell you that the plot basically is founded on little situations , like in a quest, that the main character thinks through. In the Incarnation series the main characters are again people with incredible powers (talents again) that make up the Five Incarnations. They are Death, Time, Fate, Nature, and War. The characters again do the same thing. They think out ways to get around problems , using their powers to get out of tight spots. These books are excellent !!! I thought the endings for these books, even if he is using the old formula, were great. All the books in that list , under Incarnations are excellence, even if only the first two are acually out. I thought the first two were great, so the next must be even better (This is the opposite of what happened to the Xanth novels. I hope ...). I sincerely hope that you read these books on the list above (all of them !) and enjoy all. Thanks , Bill Brickman P.S. Does anybody like Anne McCaffrey??? Eddings??? Frank Herbert??? PLEASE write something. Don't be afraid to ask questions either. Just write something about them. ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: Beowulf S. + Louis W. Date: 15 Feb 85 23:59:52 GMT The relationship between Bey Schaefer and Louis Wu? I don't have any of my books here, so I can't quote directly, but: 1. Beowulf Shaefer and Sheroll (sp?) want to have a kid 2. Due to Earth's genetic laws, they cannot have a child on Earth- Bey is an albino 3. Sheroll is a "Flatlander" of the literal type... terrified of travelling through space. Therefore, Bey and Sheroll cannot have children. 4. Carlos Wu has an "unlimited fatherhood certificate", or something like that. As a certifiable genius, he is allowed to have as many children as he desires, without interference from Earth's population control laws. 5. As a friend of Bey, Carlos agrees to make Sheroll pregnant, a great honor, as Carlos' "Services" are much in demand. (sigh...) I can't remember the name of the short story that covers all this, but it's the one where a Jinxian scientist has a captive black hole, and uses it for piracy. Bey, inbound to Earth, meets Carlos, outbound, after Sheroll becomes pregnant. PLEASE, DON'T POST THE NAME OF THE STORY... I can look it up at home, and if anyone really want to know the name, mail me. Lets not clutter up the net with this! The puppeteers (sp?) didn't tell Louis of the relationship, as, to a herd critter, none existed. I feel that biology would be more to their interest, rather than who the mother was running around with. It does tend to drive a "Known Spacer" crazy, though... Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz Subject: re: "There is a Tide" and Louis Wu Date: 19 Feb 85 11:17:15 GMT > From: unc!ericksen (Jim Ericksen) >> "Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story. >> The former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars >> Louis Wu... >> >> --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) > > Well, you're almost right. It was Louis's father, > Carlos Wu. No, I'm *completely* right. Check again (in TALES OF KNOWN SPACE). And while you're at it, check the end of the introduction in that book to see who helped Niven with the Known Space timeline. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@topaz (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Niven's Characters Date: 18 Feb 85 17:50:27 GMT jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington) writes: >> Also, we know how Louis ends his life (more or less), but what >> ultimately becomes of Beowulf Shaeffer? He is by far my favorite >> Niven character, and I feel somewhat cheated not knowing what >> happens to him. > >You never know, niven may be planning more stories. I sure hope so. No, he is not(at least presently), he has stated that he is done with the "Tales of Known Space" universe, since it is now >> too difficult to maintain consistancy over so many stories. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua} !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or quad1!psivax!friesen ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: re: query Date: 21 Feb 85 02:58:15 GMT >> Does anyone out there know of any John Varley material other >> than: >> >> TITAN >> WIZARD >> DEMON >> Picnic on Nearside >> Ophiuchi Hotline (sp?) >> Millenium >> The Persistence of Vision > >The only one you've left out that I know of is _The Barbie >Murders_. It's up to his usual standard. Enjoy. Actually, I believe that _Picnic on Nearside_ is just a reprint of _the Barbie Murders_. In the same vein, there is a book called _In the Hall of the Martian Kings_ which is a reprint (English) of _The Persistence of Vision_. Muffy ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: Best SF Films Date: 21 Feb 85 04:53:58 GMT At the risk of boring most people who know me, I would say that the science fiction film that has impressed me the most for its sophisticated ideas and quality of narrative is QUATERMASS AND THE PIT, known in this country by the forgetable title FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH. In this the British start by digging a subway tunnel in London and by the end of the film they have explanations for telekinesis, ghosts, race memories, race prejudice, similar myths in different cultures, and a heck of a lot more. The BBC tv-play, shown at Seacon, was even better than the film and a little less cryptic at times. I cannot remember reading a novel as thought provoking as this film. The story was by Nigel Kneale, one of a series of tv-plays he did revolving around a fictional rocket scientist, Bernard Quatermass. Incidently, while I have your attention, anyone out there know where I can get a VHS copy of a very good and almost unknown science fiction film called UNEARTHLY STRANGER. It is quite a good science fiction tale and done in black and white with no special effects at all. That is probably why it disappeared. Watch for it, though. It is really worth it. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: SF movies Date: 21 Feb 85 04:19:54 GMT callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >Doesn't anyone remember A BOY AND HIS DOG? Come on now!! Sure, I remember it. The scenes above ground were decent. Then it turned into a pretentious bore. This *thing* won the hugo based on Harlan Ellison's name, but if it has been written by Otto Schwartz it would be really forgotten by now. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: More Bad Movies Date: 21 Feb 85 04:35:51 GMT >From: Steve Dennett >All this talk about bad SF films has reminded me of three films I >saw (and thankfully, quickly forgot.) Two of them I can't remember >the titles for, but if anyone else saw them, perhaps they'll >remember. > >1. "The Final Programme", based on one of Michael Moorcock's Jerry > Cornelius books. This was known in the US as LAST DAYS OF MAN ON EARTH and as THE FINAL PROGRAMME in the UK. >2. "Triad(???)", was a big budget film, starring (I believe) Paul > Neuman. This was Robert Altman's QUINTET, starring Paul Newman. >3. Title Unremembered - This one came out about the same time as > "Battle Beyond the Stars." It was sort of an ALIEN ripoff; a > space ship lands on a planet to retrive a crystal (or > something). The crew must make there way into a huge > pyramid/mountain. In the caverns they meet their worst fears > come alive (i.e., the woman who has claustrophobia is crushed > in a palpitating cavern). Worst scene: another of the women is > killed by her worst fear; she is raped by a giant snail (I kid > you not) that slimes off her clothes (for a flash of bare flesh > to wake the audience), and dies moaning. Best known as GALAXY OF TERROR but also released under the titles MINDWARP: AN INFINITY OF TERROR and PLANET OF HORRORS. It was made by New World Pictures in 1981, the same folks who made BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS the previous year. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: uokvax!emjej@topaz Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever Date: 16 Feb 85 03:00:00 GMT >My room-mate nominates "Battle Beyond the Stars". I have not seen >this movie but he said that its only redeeming factor is a female >character who has quite large breasts. > >Any comments?? Yes... 1. Down here in darkest Oklahoma, we call it "John-Boy Saves the Universe," by virtue of its starring Richard Thomas. 2. When I saw it on NBC, they had the ill grace to black out certain portions of some scenes, so I can't vouch for the redeeming factor. (Darn it!) "Live fast, fight hard, and have a beautiful death..." James Jones ------------------------------ From: ctvax!rob@topaz Subject: Re: worst SF movie ever Date: 20 Feb 85 17:09:00 GMT Another redeeming factor of 'Battle Beyond the Stars', aka 'The Seven Aliens' and 'The Magnificent Seven Aliens' is the fact that Robert Vaughn played the same character he played in the 'The Magnificent Seven'. Viewed as a parody, on the retelling of the 'Seven' story, I found it amusing, but it was a long time ago that I saw it. "I'll have what you're having. I want to get loaded too." Rob Spray ...convex!ctvax!rob ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: Re: Scarf issue. Date: 19 Feb 85 13:34:32 GMT I posted a rather unhelpful note on the trek network that tells every piece of information available about the scarf. The pattern was in the last issue of the poorly named, "Whovian Times," and the scarf should be anywhere from 12-20 feet. As to those original Pertwees, many stations ran a different package of only 14 out of the 24 adventures. Then Lionheart conceived their "Grand Master Plan," as I call it. A number of stations in the country just started all the Pertwees on precisely Jan. 1st. This is in an attempt to synchronise participating stations with the eventual object of... SHOWING THE HARTNELLS AND TROUGHTONS! That's right, folks, they've finally gotten round to it! There's an unpleasant side of the coin, though. * Colin Baker will not be seen on Public Television for a couple of years, in which time they'll have a few seasons to show. * The Davison package will inexplicably lose the "Caves of Androzani," because it leads into a Doctor that isn't there, and because Lionheart wants to edit the regeneration to make it more obvious (Shades of Howard Da Silva...) Hang on to your copies of that one, folks. ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: Re: Dr Who Date: 19 Feb 85 13:47:17 GMT The episode to which you are referring is in fact, "The Dalek Master Plan." It was a twelve parter with a 1 episode prequel that didn't feature the Doctor. What do you mean it's regained its chameleon ability? That had best not be permanent. There was a huge letter writing campaign last year against changing the familiar Police Box, which John Nathan-Turner thought was better known than a real police box, and thus subverting British history. He finally promised it would never change! Somehow, it'll break down again, I'm sure, and we'll have that old blue box again... Or else I'll commit suicide like the officers of the Australian Dr. Who fan club... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Feb 85 1311-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #69 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 24 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 69 Today's Topics: Books - O'Donnell & Wilson (3 msgs) & Group Minds (5 msgs) & Secret Societies & Racial Memory, Television - Commander Cody & V, Miscellaneous - Space Burials (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 21:15 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. I spoke with him for a while at Boskone this past weekend, and elicited a number of facts that should be of interest to those who wrote the recent messages about his books: 1) The fourth McGill Feighan (pronounced Fee-in) novel, "Cliffs", will be a Dec. 1985 publication from Berkley Books. This is the fourth in a planned series of ten novels; O'Donnell has it all mapped out, so I'm sure we'll be meeting the Far Being Retzglaran before it's all over. 2) The two novels published by Bantam, "Bandersnatch" (1979) and "War of Omission" (1982), are both officially out of print, and the rights have reverted to the author. Unfortunately, no one has bought these rights. Berkley has expressed some interest, but are quoting some silly policy about not reprinting books first printed by other companies until five years after the books have formally been declared out of print. (Unfortunately, many companies leave a book as "out of stock" for months or years before getting around to admitting they're out of print, often to retain control over the rights, as they normally revert a set time after the out of print declaration.) As both books were "in print" for approx. two years, it will be a while before they appear again. I advise haunting the used book stores, though I understand that "Bandersnatch" is nigh- impossible to find. 3) O'Donnell writes, on average, one book a year, and always writes one non-Feighan book between the Feighan books. Due to the vagaries of the publishing business, this doesn't always appear to be so, but it is. So it'll be a while before the series is done. (Unlike some writers, O'Donnell needs to get away from his characters for a while between books.) 4) K. M. O'Donnell, who wrote up until the early '70s, is a pseudonym for Barry Malzberg, and shouldn't be confused with Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Wed 20 Feb 85 11:12:26-EST From: Gary A Williams Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #62 I have read most of the illuminati stuff except the schroedingers cat series and the new series which I am desperately trying to find. Conspiracy stuff is my major passion . as a Mason and Rosicrucian I can tell you all that Wilson knows his stuff reading the trilogy and cosmic trigger makes you want to run out and do research to find out what some of his references allude to . also I would like to add to the fuel on group minds the title of a Vonnegut novel VENUS ON THE HALF SHELL which has some psuedonym for an author name great giggleto read not quite sci-fi though . THE UNSPELLABLE ------------------------------ From: war@mit-dutch (Chris Warack) Date: 21 Feb 1985 1442-EST (Thursday) Subject: Illuminati Game There is a game based on the Illuminati and in particular on Wilson's books. It is called _Illuminati!_ and it plus three expansion sets are available from Steve Jackson Games (Austin, Texas). You should be able to find it in any gaming hobby shop. This game unlike most contains the spirit of the books as well as the content. The easy way to win is to cheat -- which is supported by the rules; and it is fun and paranoid just like Wilson's books. Its easy to learn and a good "beer and pretzel" game. If you like the books, you probably would like the game. -- Chris Warack "What do you mean the SCI-FI FANS are controlled by the REPUBLICANS...?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 1985 12:04:48 EST From: Subject: Illuminati-related books and Game If you're enjoying reading the Illuminatus books by Wilson (and Shea), if it's the first series...), you should also check out "The Illuminoids" by Neal Wilgus, an excellent non-fiction survey of the groups that are described in the novels. Also, you might want to try and find a copy of "The Morning of the Magicians", by Pauwels and deBergier. There is, indeed, an Illuminatus game. It's not a spoof of the books (though it does satirize reality, as the books do), but is actually sanctioned by Wilson. The game is produced by Steve Jackson games, POB 18957, Austin, TX 78760. It's very portable -- comes in a 1/2" x 3" x 6" box. There are also two expansion kits for it. It's an excellent game, which I highly recommend. I'd suggest that, if you're going to get it, go whole hog and get all three sets, because the game becomes far more interesting. Essentially, each player (up to eight, though four or five is best) is one of the major Illuminati groups -- The Bavarian Illuminati, the Bermuda Triangle, the Discordian Society, the Gnomes of Zurich, the "Network", the Servants of Chthulu, the Society of Assassins, and the UFOs -- and is trying to control the world by taking over the proper number of lesser groups. Of course, each Illuminati group also has a "secret" condition which brings victory -- the Gnomes merely have to accumulate 150 MegaBucks, for instance -- just to make things interesting. The game can be quite funny. Jackson has an excellent sense of humour, and clearly had a lot of fun deciding what groups would be included. Among others, there are: Cattle Mutilators, Clone Arrangers, Convenience Stores, Fiendish Fluoridators, Flat Earthers, Fnord Motor Company, Girlie Magazines, the Gun Lobby, the IRS, the Post Office, the Mad Scientists, the Mafia, the Morticians, Multinational Oil Companies, the Nephews of God, the Pentagon, the Post Office, the Reformed Church of Satan, the Robot Sea Monsters, S.M.O.F. the Society for Creative Anarchism, and the Trekkies. Not to mention the infamous Orbital Mind Control Lasers. . . There is also a play-by-mail version of the game, but all reports I've heard on this rate it as far less enjoyable than the real, face-to-face version. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Feb 1985 14:56 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Group Minds How about Gaea in Foundation's Edge? I don't know, how about it... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 02:59:55 PST From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: group minds It's questionable whether it is a legitimate group mind, but here it is anyway: "Mechanical Mice", by Maurice A. Hugi (Astounding, anthologized in Famous Science-Fiction Stories: Adventures in Time and Space). ***SPOILER ON*** This is about a "future viewer" which is incidental except that it allows an inventor to build a machine which is analogous to a queen bee. Stopping it once it's built a swarm is what the story is about. ***SPOILER OFF***. Try also "The Possessed", by Clarke (eg in his collection "The Nine Billion Names of God"). > And to all you people in net land: I remember a short story (by > Heinlein or Asimov?) that involved a starship manned by a > multi-racial crew coming to evacuate Earth before Sol goes nova. > A few of the crew were part of a group mind. This was important > when a landing party was trapped in a trans-Atlantic subway and > cut off from radio communications. Anyone know the author/title? Try "Rescue Party", by Clarke (also in "The Nine Billion Names of God"). See if this sounds right: "Last came one of the strange beings from the system of Palador. It was nameless, like all its kind, for it possessed no identity of its own, being merely a mobile but still dependent cell in the consciousness of its race. [half a paragraph later] When a creature of Palador spoke, the pronoun it used was always 'We'. There was not, nor could there ever be, any first person singular in the language of Palador. [about a page later] In moments of crisis, the single units comprising the Paladorian mind could link together in an organization no less close than that of any physical brain. At such moments they formed an intellect more powerful than any other in the Universe." der Mouse ...ihnp4!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 85 11:42:02 PST (Wednesday) From: Hallgren.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #62 The group mind Mark Maxson refers to is in THE WHOLE MAN by John Brunner. It is one of my favorite stories. The "catapathic group" (catalepsy and telepathy) could be found remotely by sensative telepaths, but was usually found because it happened often to overworked telepaths. It seemed to me to be a prime candidate for a movie adaption, but no takers. Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 21 Feb 1985 08:02:36-PST From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Rabbit, you're - you're From: despicable!!) Subject: Group Minds as a concept... The concept of Group Minds was explored in an interesting manner in Robert Heinlein's book "Methuselah's Children". The Howard Families (including good ol' Lazarus Long) happen upon this planet populated with creatures who have group minds, about 30 bodies making up one common mind. ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@topaz (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Group Mind stories Date: 19 Feb 85 23:36:37 GMT > From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks 223-9408) > > > Another "Group Mind" story is "Encounter Near Venus", author > forgotten, which I read in my youth. This is a juvenile, but > an excellent one. "Encounter Near Venus" is by Leonard Wibberley, author of "Ah, Julian!", "Captain Treegate's War," and a few other good juvenile books. I think Wibberley is terrific. "ENV" has a sequel too, whose title I cannot recall. Highly recommended. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 20 Feb 85 00:13:16-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: While we're talking about secret societies... ...don't forget W.A.S.T.E. in Pynchon's "The Crying of Lot 49". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 15:44 EST From: Andrew D. Sigel Subject: Re: Racial memory Zenna Henderson used racial memory in her human-like aliens The People. She wrote several novelettes and short stories about The People, almost all of which were put into two novel-length frameworks, and published as PILGRIMAGE (1961) and THE PEOPLE: NO DIFFERENT FLESH (1967). Both books are currently available from Avon. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@topaz (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Commander Cody and Flash Gordon Date: 18 Feb 85 17:45:29 GMT >From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford > Hey, out there in netland, do any of you remember the 50's >TV show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but as I >recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time. I watched one episode, my SF fan club shows such things from time to time. I thought it was rather silly, sort of like the old movie serials. It was about this guy(a sort of Flash Gordon type) who had this rocket suit who went about saving the Earth. Of course when it was produced this was not yet a cliche. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua} !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or quad1!psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Feb 85 10:47 MST From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: V Q & A I like V. There are few enough SF programs on TV as it is, probably because we complain every time they put one on. Every week when we watch V, we sit around and try to answer any questions which pop up during the show (after we complain about them for a while). I thought I would let you in on some of our answers. 1-Why are most of the Visitors wearing the Human makeup, even on the ship? That stuff probably takes hours to put on right, it is designed for long wear. So once they get it put on, they are in no hurry to repeat the process. (we haven't figured out yet how the resistance handles Willie's makeup when it gets damaged). 2-Why are they still here? They don't like to lose, and nuking the planet is essentially giving up. (But Diana would have rather blown it up than leave, but since her commander 'bought the farm' she has obviously convinced higher-ups that they should stay) 3-Why didn't Nathan Bates' bomb trigger work when he died? If I was them, the first thing I would do when I got him to a hospital under anesthetic would be call in the bomb squad and have him "defused". They aren't total fools, even tho they can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside. 4-Someone asked why we didn't use more 'red dust'. That was explained in the first show of the series. It has reached some critical mass in the environment and more would cause us problems (mutations, etc). 5-Why are they attracted to the human form sexually? They are kinky and go in for the exotic. We may not be as repulsive to them as they are to us. I imagine the same could be said for the first European sailors to reach the orient. Think about it. 6-Why did Diana get the body shave before the wedding? The human makeup has hair or it wouldn't look human. They may be kinky, but they probably prefer smooth 'plastic' to hairy 'plastic'. All in all, the show is better than nothing. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Any more questions and we will be happy to take a look at them. The Theory Machine . . . RNeal ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz (john) Subject: Re: Space Burial Date: 8 Feb 85 16:47:00 GMT According to the paper they will fit >10,000 "remains" into a 300 lb capsule (including capsule weight). That puts your average 150 lb body down to less than .03 lbs. Talk about compression! The scary part is look at what history tells us about civilizations that start spending significate portions of their GNP on burials and gravestones. They all seem to collapse shortly after. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ From: petsd!cjh@topaz (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: Space Burial Date: 21 Feb 85 20:29:43 GMT John Eaton writes: > The scary part is look at what history tells us about > civilizations that start spending significate portions of their > GNP on burials and gravestones. They all seem to collapse shortly > after. Is this really true? The only civilization I can remember that was notorious for spending a lot on graves was ancient Egypt. And they stayed around for thousands of years; they were conquered by Alexander the Great, later by Rome, later by Islam - all very aggressive persons or organizations who conquered a whole lot besides. I don't see that they died of the weight of their supposed pre-occupation with graves. Regards, Chris Full-Name: Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 870-5853 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Feb 85 0322-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #70 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 26 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 70 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Temporary Moderator, Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Niven (2 msgs) & Nebula Award Preliminary Nomination List & Story Request & Future Bantam Releases & Cherryh/Lee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Feb 85 03:16:49 EST From: Dave Subject: Temporary Moderator Hi all, Saul is at a conference in Calif. for the week and I'll be moderating in his place (since most of you couldn't stand being without SFL for a whole week :-). Please excuse any slight differences in our moderating styles. Hope all goes well. Enjoy, ds ------------------------------ From: fluke!morgan@topaz (Bruce Eckel) Subject: Re: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 20 Feb 85 22:26:49 GMT In article <917@hound.UUCP> rfg@hound.UUCP (R.GRANTGES) writes: >[] >Here' an opinion/speculation that's bound to draw flames, flames, >flames: > >I think Piers Anthony's writing has gone to pot. I believe his first >published material was the "Battle Circle" trilogy (Sos, the Rope, >...etc.) which I thought was superb, fantastic, even swell. then >came the O-O-O trilogy, good, great, super, but ..not quite as >swell. From there its been all down hill with fantasy and >mumbo-jumbo vaguenesses. He seems to be following the well worn >track laid down by his forebears such as Newton and Herbert. I >speculate it's easier to write that mystical trash because nothing >has to synch, nothing has to be worked out in detail, logic is >verboten, anything goes. I tried to keep reading anything Pier's >wrote because of the level of his first six, but I couldn't keep up. >He could grind out the progressively more mindless garbage faster >than I could digest it. This transition wasn't overnight. Sure, the >first Xanth book was clever and funny. Not like what had gone >before, but passable. Still, the third? the seventeenth? ... > >"It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg Thank God! Finally someone who is as dissapointed with Piers Anthony as I! I made it through the first Xanth book with enjoyment, and halfway through the second before I saw his creativity was used on the first and he was just turning the crank. But I see so many people reading all of his later books. As I someday hope to publish an SF novel myself, I wonder if I have lost touch with the bulk of the readers. I remember when I began reading SF (in Junior High), anything was great. This lasted quite a while, but in my later years I have become selective. Then very selective. Then positively discriminating. Then prejudiced. Hienlien (sp?), for example, I suspect he went through some sort of spiritual experience and then published "Stranger in a.." and all the books which followed it, with identical structure, all the action happening in the first third of the book and the remainder used as a vehicle for his new, enlightened view of the world which I found Booooring. Some authors go through this change and get a lot better. I am thinking of one in particular but can't remember his name. Sorry. Clifford Simak is consistently entertaining, but I always feel like I know what to expect; as if he is following some very structured writing formula he learned in college. All the others. I have read the "classics" (Asimov, et. al.) but they begin to run low. As I get older and wiser, I suppose, I demmand more from my authors. Perhaps this sort of thing will distance me from my (future?) readers, but perhaps it will also make me a better writer. The only writers I really admire today (i.e. would like to emulate in some way) are Gene Wolfe (such strange imagery; what complex human feelings from a science-fiction character), John Crowley (Little, Big was really fantasy, I suppose, but the imagery and the vision of (subtle, not prestitigitatious) magic was so strong for me), and whoever wrote "Parsival, a knight's tale" and "the grail war." These people have style, subtlety and humor which touch my life so much more than "...he gripped the rope in his teeth, grasped the nubile, buxom maiden to his side while swinging across the yawning gorge and fingering the stud on his blaster ..." Perhaps in the process of changing my world view from the one where the way to deal with a problem is through aggressiveness to one which is so different I can't describe it but that's because I'm not there yet and if I knew what it was it would spoil it anyway, I am changing what information I can utilize in my world. Seems simple now that I've said it. I promise shorter sentences in my books. ( :*) ) Bruce Eckel John Fluke Manufacturing Co. Everett, WA ------------------------------ From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang) Subject: Re: Re: Piers Anthony *SEMI-SPOILER* Date: 22 Feb 85 00:57:34 GMT > > P.S. Does anybody like Anne McCaffrey ??? Eddings ??? Frank > Herbert ??? PLEASE write something. Don't be afraid to ask > questions either. Just write something about them. I've read most, if not all of the "novels" put out by each one of them. Herbert is still my favorite out of McCaffrey, Eddings, and Herbert, although, there are a few works by Herbert I did not really enjoy. Godmakers is probably one of those. Besides Dune, one of my favorite is The Dosadi(sp?) Experiment. Of McCaffrey's novels, the ones I liked the least were the Dragonsinger's series. Dragon-riders was passable along with Moreth. Her non-serialized works, are on the whole, pretty good. Eddings was good at the beginning of his Belgariad series because of the freshness, but seemed to go down hill a bit in Endgame. I've read many of the Pier's Anthony books too and I think that Bio of a Space Tyrant has got to be his worst (in my opinion that is). If I had been a slower reader, I would have passed away somewhere in the middle I'm sure. As it was, I barely survived to the end of vol. 1. -eli ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eli Liang --- University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang ------------------------------ From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Niven's Characters (pseudo-spoiler) Date: 21 Feb 85 01:08:59 GMT You mean it isn't obvious what happened to Beowulf Schaeffer? Come on, think about it. Obviously on one of his adventures he fell between the inner and outer event horizons of a black hole and was projected a few thousand years into the future, to a time shortly before the Core explosion reached Earth. Landing on an Earth entirely poulated by Teelas, he was immediately shanghaied into yet another adventure that netted a gigantic stasis field generator, high quantum, large enough to envelop the entire solar system (a product of the technology of the race that created the Paks). A ship was positioned on the far side of the solar system from the core with a time-release stasis field neutralizer. The stasis field was activated a year before the first radiation hit Earth. Thus all the Teelas and Beowulf Schaeffer were insulated from the effects, and after the brunt had passed the ship neutralized the stasis field. Gosh, how lucky for the Teelas that the only man who could have saved them turned up at the appropriate moment. They gave their greatest tribute to Beowulf, said tribute being jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. Unfortunately, they didn't realize that without the luck gene, circumstances would not conspire to save him, and the galaxy's greatest hero wound up only half a millimeter thick. So much for greatness. Stay tuned. Next time, we find out what happened to Serge Ortega, the six-armed walrus-snake, and his pet rabbit Bunky. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." Liber AL, II:9. ------------------------------ From: orca!davidl@topaz (David Levine) Subject: Re: Niven's Characters Date: 18 Feb 85 19:47:08 GMT Actually, despite the overwhelming evidence that Louis Wu is the son of Beowulf Shaeffer (well, biologically his father must be Carlos Wu), Niven is adamant that Louis Wu has never even heard of Bey. (See "Ringworld.") I can't even speculate why Niven decided to do it that way, but he IS the author, after all... I suppose that if, in Known Space, one takes the name of one's biological father rather than the man one's mother is married to, there must be thousands of Wus knocking around by the time of "Ringworld." Carlos Wu had an UNLIMITED Birthright License. Bonus trivia question: We all know who Beowulf Shaeffer is. What Niven characters had middle names Launcelot and Gilgamesh? (Answers rot13 after my signature.) David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl) [UUCP] (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] Answers: Yhpnf Ynhaprybg Tneare naq Tvyoreg Tvytnzrfu Unzvygba. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Feb 85 22:59:14 MST From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Nebula Award preliminary nomination list This information is from LOCUS #289, which also has the LOCUS Poll, Recommended Reading for 1984, etc. (I see where the net's own Jerry Boyajian has a non-fiction book (with Kenneth Johnson) on the recommended reading list, INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINES 1983...) Here are the top 25 preliminary nominees for best novel, in order by number of nominations from most to least: NEUROMANCER, William Gibson THEM BONES, Howard Waldrop THE WILD SHORE, Kim Stanley Robinson WORLD'S END, Joan Vinge THE MAN WHO MELTED, Jack Dann EMERGENCE, David R. Palmer GREEN EYES, Lucius Shepard NATIVE TONGUE, Suzette Haden Elgin ACROSS THE SEA OF SUNS, Gregory Benford CLAY'S ARK, Octavia Butler JOB, Robert A. Heinlein THE MAN IN THE TREE, Damon Knight THE BUSINESSMAN, Thomas M. Disch CARDS OF GRIEF, Jane Yolen THE BRANCH, Mike Resnick THE GOLDEN GROVE, Nancy Kress HEECHEE RENDEZVOUS, Frederik Pohl PALIMPSESTS, Scholz and Harcourt STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND, Samuel R. Delany STEAM BIRD, Hilbert Schenck DAMIANO, R. A. MacAvoy (I used the initials this time!) DEMON, John Varley FRONTERA, Lewis Shiner THE CEREMONIES, T. E. D. Klein GODS OF THE GREATAWAY, Michael Coney Haven't read all these yet, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn PS -- LOCUS Publications, PO Box 13305, Oakland CA 94661; $24/year, $26 Canada. ------------------------------ Subject: Story Request Date: Wed, 20 Feb 85 10:50:38 EST From: Charles Martin Apropos of a story which appeared in the mid-70's in Analog: "The Raven and the Hawk," by (I believe) William Rotsler. Anybody know if this was ever collected, if any other stories were written in the same vein, etc? Reply to ME, please, not the net. (Note: I *have* the story, I'm just interested in its subsequent history.) -- Martin@YALE.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu 21 Feb 85 11:34:04-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Future Bantam list Bantam is increasing the visiblity of its science fiction/fantasy line with more advertising and an new logo. The line will now be called SPECTRA books. The line is introduced in multiple page color ads in Publishers Weekly, Feb 8, 1985. After touting their success with previous books such as WEST OF EDEN, STARTIDE RISING, TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON, VALENTINE PONTIFIX, BELOVED EXILE, they announce the following Summer/Fall list. Harlan Ellison, editor MEDEA: HARLAN'S WORLD. a dozen of the field's most honored talents share in the creation of a remarkable planet. June Trade Paperback $10.95 Norman Spinrad. CHILD OF FORTUNE. The star-flung odyssey of a young woman through the heights and depths of an exotic interstellar culture. August Hardcover $16.95 Parke Godwin. THE LAST RAINBOW. July Trade Paperback $6.95 BELOVIED EXILE. June Mass Market $3.95 James Hogan. THE PROTEUS OPERATION. A commando team sent back in time to prevent Hitler's victory in WWII. October Hardcover $16.95 Lisa Goldstein. THE DREAM YEARS. A stunning tour-de-force of fantasy of a young Surrealist of the 1920's and a woman from the 1968 Paris Riots who cross time to discover love and hope in a visionary future. September Hardcover $14.95 David Brin. THE POSTMAN. A major novel of one man's determination to rebuild America from the ashes of a devastating war. November Hardcover $14.95 THE UPLIFT WAR. The saga of the Progenitors begun in Sundiver and Startide Rising continues in this exciting tale of a planet resisting invastion. December Mass Market $3.50 Samuel R. Delany. THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES; OF CITIES. The concluding volume of the acclaimed science fiction epic begun in Stars in my Pocket Like Grains of Sand. December Hardcover $16.95 STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND. September Mass Market $3.95 Harry Harrison. WEST OF EDEN. Last year's hardback bestseller... July Mass Market $3.95 A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN. At last! the never-before-published origin of the 25th Century's most lovable conman-turned-counterspy: "Slippery Jim" DiGriz. October Mass Market $2.95 R. A. Macavoy. THE BOOK OF KELLS. A magnificent story of a young artist transported to Tenth Century Ireland by the award-winning author of TEA ... and the Damiano trilogy. August Mass Market $3.50 Pamela Sargent. VENUS OF DREAMS. Beginning a generation-spanning sf epic of the struggle to colonize the planet Venus. October Mass Market $3.95 Robert Silverberg. GILGAMESH THE KING. November Mass Market $3.95 Warren Norwood. POLAR FLEET. June Mass Market $2.95 Somtow Sucharitkul. THE DARKLING WIND. A towering saga of the end of a millenia-old galactic empire. July Mass Market $3.50 Elizabeth Scarborough. THE CHRISTENING QUEST. The latest light-hearted fantasy in the bestselling Chronicles of Argonia. August Mass Market $2.95 David R. Palmer. THRESHOLD. Beginning a dazzling far-future epic of humanity's struggle to preserve itself against a deadly cosmic force. November Mas Market $2.95 Bantam books typically arrive in CA about the second week of the preceeding month. IE the March books arrived in the second week of Feb. Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA. ------------------------------ From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang) Subject: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF Subject: authors... Date: 22 Feb 85 01:09:36 GMT How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's stuff or Tanith Lee's works? I liked Cherryh's Downbelow Station a lot and much of Tanith Lee's wierder stories. A friend of mine however won't read any of that stuff on first principles. To paraphrase him, "after all, how many really good female SF authors do you know?" I personally think that the number is certainly substantial. I guess a lot of female SF writers though are still suffering from prejudices such as this and find that they must hide behind names which are patently male or gender non-specific. Cases in point are C.J.Cherryh and Andre Norton. -eli ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eli Liang --- University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Feb 85 0341-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #71 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 26 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 71 Today's Topics: Books - Title Request & Niven (2 msgs) & Chalker (3 msgs) & King, Miscellaneous - Science Fiction Book Club (4 msgs) & Con Observation, Television - Blake's 7 and Sapphire and Steel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz Subject: Title request Date: 19 Feb 85 17:11:43 GMT I received this title request and I'm stumped. If you know the answer, send it to Dave: Re: Here's a short story plot, can anybody name the title/author? Plot: This is a alternate future story, the narrator's present is one in which cars have been replaced by trolley's. Lots of trolleys. They run all over the country -- lots of transportation substance without the ego/ownership thing. The narrator is on one for at least part of the tale. He slips in and out of (dreams?) the other future (ours) where gasoline powered machines have ruined the environment. There are some crazies in his alternate/present that drive (illeggasoline cars. ..... that's about all that I remember, except a vauge feeling that the turning point between the futures was identified. Ring any bells anybody? (In real life: Dave Weininger) UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,allegra}!scgvaxd!muddcs!MedChem!Dave ARPA: muddcs!MedChem!Dave@ucla-cs ------------------------------ From: uiucdcs!mcewan@topaz Subject: Re: re: Niven' characters Date: 22 Feb 85 04:08:00 GMT >>"Neutron Star" and "There is a Tide" are *not* the same story. The >>former, as you mention, stars Bey Shaeffer; the latter stars Louis >>Wu... >> >>--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) > >Well, you're almost right. It was Louis's father, >Carlos Wu. In my copy of "Tales of Known Space" it's Louis. The only story I've ever read featuring Carlos Wu is "The Borderland of Sol". Scott McEwan {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan "Uh oh. Looks like we got a 666 down there - deity on a rampage." ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann) Subject: Re: Niven Date: 21 Feb 85 17:33:43 GMT I seem to remember in Ringworld Engineers that the warrior Teela was going around with (he had taken a massive does of youth drug and was around the right age when he took it) died when they found the chamber with hte tree of life root in it because he was too old. Apparently, you only get one shot and taking the youth drugs (what he took wasn't booster spice but a derivative of tree of life root) doesn't allow you survive the change. M. McCann ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 14 Feb 1985 12:43:23-PST From: feldman%bartok.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Geoff Feldman HL02-3E09 From: 225-6023) Subject: Well World, OBIE My vote is "Object Based Intelligent Engine" As a twentieth century AI developer, thats what OBIE was, although OBJECT is in Caps in this case in that this computer dealt with objects in a more literal sense than todays machines. I wont defend this choice in terms of the story, its unfounded. But I had fun thinking of it. ---Geoff ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: Re: Obie Date: 14 Feb 85 03:33:11 GMT In article <603@topaz.ARPA> @RUTGERS.ARPA:SRA@MIT-XX.ARPA writes: >From: Rob Austein > >Anybody know the origin of the name "Obie" in Jack Chalker's Well >World books? He (Obie) claims at one point "My name is actually an >acronym but the words are so out of date that they have lost their >meaning." Ideas, anybody? ....I don't know the book in question but the only acronym I could think of to fit "Obie" is "O.B.E." - Order of the British Empire. greg. -- Gregory Rawlins CS Dept.,U.Waterloo,Waterloo,Ont.N2L3G1 (519)884-3852 gjerawlins%watdaisy@waterloo.csnet CSNET {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 85 08:01 PST From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #58 What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good. Also, has anyone read Farmer's "Dayworld"? >>Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu 21 Feb 85 11:05:47-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Richard Bachman From the ABA Newswire Feb 18, 1985 New American Library confirmed last week that Stephen King is the author of THINNER, a hardcover NAL book written under the pseudonym of Richard Bachman and published last December. As Bachman, Stephen King also wrote RAGE (1977), THE LONG WALK (1979), ROADWORK (1981) and THE RUNNING MAN (1982), each a paperback published originally by Signet. The latter titles are out of print, but will be re-released by NAL under the Plume imprint as a trade paperback omnibus edition, with a new introduction by King. Although THINNER was also recently unavailable, a third printing came off the press last Friday, Feb 15. NAL has produced window posters, in-store signs, and counter displays indicating "Stephen King writes as Richard Bachman" and is the author of THINNER. These point-of-purchase materials are now also available from NAL. [this just shows that the sellablity of a book is the name of the author, not the quality of the book. If King was famous for the quality of his writing, then the five Bachman books should have made Bachman also famous.] Randy. ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!nairb@topaz (b. enke) Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB Date: 19 Feb 85 23:45:51 GMT > I have to agree. I belonged to the book club briefly back in the > early '60s, and joined again about 2-3 years ago. I've purchased > very few books since rejoining, and recently got a form letter > asking why I hadn't purchased any books recently, and did I still > want to be on their mailing list? > > Typical recent offerings include every Stephen King book ever > written, Star Trek and Star Wars novelizations, a fictional > account of a Third World War by a retired military officer, and > (as the above writer points out) VERY few hot new titles. The > quality of the books themselves is mediocre: cheap paper, > inexpensive binding, many typos in the text. I've decided to buy > titles I'm interested in at my local bookstore in quality > hardcover editions, and hang the SF Book Club membership. I can't > really recommend this book club to anyone. Although I am not totally satisfied with this book club, I still have to completely disagree with about everything you've stated. I also joined about 2-3 years ago, but I've purchased a lot of books and have been completely satisfied with them. As far as Stephen King, Star Trek, Star Wars, and WWIII are concerned, you forgot Dune and the Hitchhiker series. All of these books are heavily demanded right now, so isn't it just common business sense to offer what the public wants? I just can't believe what you stated about the quality of the books. I haven't purchased a single book yet that I have thought was cheaply produced. In fact, I've bought several from major bookstores that were much more cheaply made. Not many typos either. As far as hot new titles is concerned, they do offer MANY, but not as many as you could find in a bookstore. What dissatisfies me is their billing policies. They made a couple of mistakes on my account, and they occasionally sent me books that I didn't order (they did take them right back, though, minus postage). I guess that overall, I would recommend the club. My membership has expired, and I plan to rejoin. ------------------------------ From: nmtvax!knight@topaz Subject: Re: Science Fiction Book Club Date: 19 Feb 85 03:18:30 GMT Reply-to: knight@nmtvax.UUCP (Bob Knight) I, too, like the SF Book Club a lot. I've been with them for over 15 years now, and have no complaints except, possibly, for the paucity of selections available in their monthly blurbs. However, I've found that you can go to the teasers they send for new members and order books from there on your monthly chits and win with no complaints from them. Another point: they are the type of club that requires you to send an announcement back saying "nay" on the monthly selections to not get them. A friend of mine said "I'm too lazy/absentminded to keep up with this" and asked them to change him to a mode where he could order at his leisure (he still received the monthly notices.) They immediately, with no hassle what- soever, changed him to that mode - and the announcements he received were the same as mine. All in all, I second the recommendation for them. A breath of fresh air in the (in my opinion, lest I get flamed) sordid world of clubs of various ilks. Bob "Yngvi is a louse!" ------------------------------ From: inuxd!keen@topaz (D Keen) Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB Date: 20 Feb 85 16:21:18 GMT Count this as another positive vote for the SFBC. I have belonged for more than 20 years or 150-175 books depending on ones viewpoint. Granted that I was much happier paying $1.49 per book than the current rate, it is still a bargain if one is fairly heavily addicted to reading and owning science fiction and/or fantasy. It provides a needed niche for those books that one wants to keep for long periods without serious deterioration, but that do not qualify for full hardback purchase price. This assumes that one has some limit to your budget and that you are in the 75+ per year book purchase range. Concerning quality of choice, I agree that the probability of acquiring an excellent original published work from the club is much smaller than it was 10 years ago, but I think this is inevitable given the current higher acceptance from the regular publishing houses of the SF&F genre. I also do not find significantly lower physical or typesetting quality in the book club editions than normal editions; maybe I have been lucky. Finally, upon request, the club will allow you to change to an order only relationship; that is, you will only be sent books which you have requested, rather than all books which you did not reject. This can save a lot of hassle. Good reading Don Keen AT&T-CP (Any relationship between AT&T and science fiction is purely coincidental as is any relationship between my views and theirs.) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 1985 12:52:07-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: SF book club.... Wilson Harris (harris@nrl-aic) writes the following, concerning the SF book club: > my membership does not require returning the monthly announcement > if I do not want any books. If I do nothing, no books are sent. > It's only when I check off or list books on the form do they send > me anything. Thanks! I stand corrected. --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford ------------------------------ From: chabot%amber.DEC@topaz (l s chabot) Subject: "...I just read the stuff" Date: 20 Feb 85 16:30:44 GMT Remember last September? Well, I just got back from Boskone XXII (the Green Line is *Slow*), and I was struck by an observation: many, many fans are *people*. It didn't really hit me until I got home and I noticed the contrast between the flat characters confined to line fragments imprinted on paper in the many little rectangles packed into my rectangle shelves, and the three dimensional people that had bustled about me at the con. True, there were some of those flat characters at the con too and you could _buy_ *them*, but you couldn't fill all the elevators with them. Has anybody else noticed this also, too? L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@topaz (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: net.tv.bbc/ Blake's 7 and Sapphire and Steel Date: 20 Feb 85 19:11:12 GMT Were I able to discourse about any British T.V. program, my two favorites not discussed here on net.tv.drwho would be "Blake's 7" and "Sapphire and Steel." To avoid numerous "What is" notes, I will explain in the least SPOILER way I can about them... Blake's 7: In this interesting story, a group of prison convicts escape and take over an alien spaceship which proves to be their salvation. They are led (Sort of) by Roj Blake, who leads them, reluctant, into battle with the Galactic Federation. The central focus of the story is the conflict between the elements of the group who just want to leave Blake behind and take over the ship to carry on criminal activities, and those who really want to destroy the semi-evil federation, led by Servalan. (It has been said that if Servalan and Darth Vader were in the same galaxy, he would end up working for HER.) The actress and actor who play the major characters Servalan and Avon (A man, not a makeup company) appear on Doctor Who in "The Two Doctors," and "Mark of the Rani," respectively. Paul Darrow, who plays Avon, also appeared in the "Silurians" classic as Capt. Hawkins. Blake's 7 is highly dramatic, ending each season on a cliffhanger and killing off regular characters with great ease. Unlike most science fiction series, it ends- dramatically and finally. It was founded and (at first) entirely written by Terry Nation. Then other authors took over. Dr. Who director David Maloney (Talons of Weng Chiang, Deadly Assasin, and others) produced from the second season on, and Dr. Who writer Chris Boucher, (Face of Evil, Robots of Death, Image of the Fendahl) script-edited. Sapphire and Steel: A very tense, mature show about ghosts. (Can't get more mature than a ghost, can you?) Sapphire (A woman) and Steel (A man) are assigned to Earth because time, greedy and trying to break into the physical world, is sending ghosts into our time zone. Unfortunately, this show didn't last more than three seasons because often it was pitted against Dr. Who reruns, and thus suffered the fate of "Buck Rogers," "Man from Atlantis," and others pitted against Dr. Who on ITV. Nothing can compete with the Doctor! Like Blake's 7, this show ENDS, dramatically. Both these shows were pedalled over here by Lionheart and earlier Time-Life, before they stopped handling Dr. Who and before it was a success (Dr. Who, I mean) Lionheart thought they'd have better luck, seeing as Dr. Who was such a runaway success, but it seems not. Perhaps stations are spending so much $ on Dr. Who that they can't afford anything else. (Whatever happened to K9 and Company, anyway?) Charles Kupperman, "A long-shanked rascal with a mighty nose." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Feb 85 0731-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #72 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: Books - Illuminatus & Trumps of Doom & Cherryh & Hodgell, Movies - Saxon & Five Million Years To Earth & Star Trek IV & Best and Worst SF Films (3 msgs), Television - Prisoner & D. Adams on Late Nite, Miscellaneous - Wanted Address to L.K.Turner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duke!crm@topaz (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Other Illuminatus Books Date: 21 Feb 85 23:14:28 GMT In article <261@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: > ... Wilson is >incredibly gullible, believing in (for example) Uri Geller's psychic >powers and intervention in Earth history by aliens from Sirius. Or else he simply has fooled you with a better "willing suspension of disbelief" than you expect. > He also has an > ... He is a dabbler, >not an expert, when it comes to Magick, and as such his views on the >subject must be viewed with extreme skepticism. which is more or less the view suggested by Crowley on his own stuff. What the hell, his views make at least as much sense as Billy Graham's. By the way, my direct path to you has ceased to work, I think. If you can figure a new path (assuming you actually see this), let me know. >-=- >Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center >ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim >CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" > >"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows >are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which >remains." Liber AL, II:9. -- Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) "I am not a number, I'm a free variable!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri 22 Feb 85 23:15:01-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Trumps of Doom Will there be a "special limited edition", ie an edition which will probably not disintegrate on re-reading? -Laurence ------------------------------ From: uiucdcs!friedman@topaz Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh books Date: 22 Feb 85 14:42:00 GMT A couple of people have given list of C. J. Cherryh's books, but have not noted that these two: Port Eternity 82 Forty Thousand in Gehanna 84 are set in the same universe as these: Downbelow Station 81 Merchanter's Luck 82 PE and FTiG aren't as closely related as are DS and ML, but they do belong together. If you're reading them in order, read DS and ML before the other two. Also, while I'd classify DS and ML as "hard" SF, PE is much more... well, I'll say exotic...than the other two, and FTiG is somewhere in between. Incidentally, she has written a short story or two set in this universe, also. I just read "The Scapegoat", which has a surprising ending (at least, I was surprised; I began to guess at it only a few pages from the end). It's in a new book, a collection of 3 short stories called "Alien Stars", edited by Elizabeth Mitchell; the other two stories are by Joe Haldeman and Timothy Zahn (I haven't read those two yet). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Feb 85 03:00:18 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) I was rather disapointed by Hodgell's novel `Godstalk'. After finishing it I felt I had been ripped-off. In the hands of a more experienced author, this could have been an excellent novel. The natural comparison is with Andre Norton's `Breed to Come', which is everything `Godstalk' might have been. Steve ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: "Genesis II" and John Saxon.... Date: 22 Feb 85 17:52:29 GMT REFERENCES: <732@topaz.ARPA> > The heavy is John Saxon. He plays a lot of bad guys and even the > occasional good guy. He has been in a lot of SF (good and bad). The > first ones that come to mind are _Planet Earth_, _Genesis II_ and a > third one that I can't remember the name of. Genesis II (1973) Planet Earth (1974) Strange New World (1975) Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (leeper) Subject: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-spoiler) Date: 22 Feb 85 16:37:58 GMT Somebody on the net asked me to give a synopsis of this film, which I have called the best science fiction film I have ever seen. Some of the parts of the film are a bit crypt, but are clearer in the play which was shown at Seacon and is available in paperback. Here goes: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (Brit. QUATERMASS AND THE PIT) Hammer films 1968, Dir. by Roy Ward Baker. Scr by Nigel Kneale based on his tv-play "Quatermass and the Pit." Cast: Andrew Kier (Bernard Quatermass), James Donald (Dr. Matthew Roney), Barbara Shelley (Barbara Judd). London Transit is digging a subway tunnel at Hobbs End. They find fossils of man's early ancestors. Dr. Matthew Roney is called in to investigate the fossils and in the process finds a large craft buried in the ground near the five million year old fossils. Thinking that what was found might be a German V-weapon, they call in Col. Breen, a former expert on enemy missiles and now in the process of taking over Quatermass's rocket group. Quatermass, driven by curiosity, goes with Breen to the site of the excavations and realizes that if the fossils are 5 million years old, so is the craft. Hobbs end has been known from time immemorial, it turns out, for weird supernatural events, particularly when the earth has been disturbed. The army, with much trouble, is able to bore a hole into the inner chamber found in the craft, and inside they find insect-like inhabitants. Quatermass theorizes that they are from Mars and that they had altered the apes whose fossils were found into evolving toward intelligent humans. A driller hired by the army to open the craft is removing his equipment when he seems possessed by some force. He runs mindlessly through the streets causing telekinetic destruction and takes refuge in a churchyard. Quatermass is called in by the vicar and hears the driller babbling about seeing scenes of another world. His description seems to be of a race purge of mutants. Quatermass theorizes that the telekinetic powers and the hatred of anyone different were invested in us by the aliens and were always with us more or less dormant. The craft has the power to reawaken them in us. Quatermass together with Roney rig up a device to record his mental images and Quatermass tries to repeat the drillers actions so the ship will have the same effect on him. Instead the craft takes over Roney's assistant and Quatermass records her mental images. The minister of defense, angered by Quatermass earlier telling the press that the craft might have been of alien design, calls Quatermass in on the carpet. He shows them the pictures he has recorded from the assistant's mind of a mutant hunt. They are unconvinced, believing Breen's explanation that the craft is German. The minister opens the craft site to the press. The night that the press is running a tv show from the craft site, a man setting up lighting in the craft slips and somehow reactivates the craft fully. The vast majority of London is taken over to become mindless telekinetics bent on wiping out anything that might be a variation in the human genetic strain. Quatermass himself become part of the hunt. Roney is among the very few who are immune to the mental control exerted by the capsule. Seeing Quatermass in the crowd he pulls him out and with a great deal of effort, gets Quatermass's mind working again. The capsule which has now turned London into effectively a alien colony. Exerting this effort it is turning its own mass into energy. The broadcast energy forms a column with the capsule changes into the satan-like shape of a alien. Roney realizes that the nature of the energy column is electrical. He reasons that the legends of the Devil's enemy being iron had a basis in fact. These alien images that used to be interpretted as ghosts and demons are electrical and people holding iron swords grounded them out. Roney sees a large crane by the capsule site, and his assistant being carried by the crowd. He sends Quatermass to grab the assistant and also to get him out of the way. He climbs the crane and swings it into the column of energy, electricuting himself but grounding out the column. The instant the column is grounded, the alien mental control ends and things start returning to normal. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Feb 1985 20:52:09 PST Subject: ST IV From: Alan R. Katz Everyone is way off the mark on what the next Star Trek Movie will be about. This is what will happen: 1. They will team up with a mean looking Klingon who is really an OK guy, but intimdates everyone (remember the Klingons now have a bone down the top of their heads which sort of resemble a Mohawk). 2. McCoy decides he LIKES being thought of as crazy, for one thing he gets free room and board. The others keep breaking him out of the Loony Bin whenever they need him for something. 3. Sulu starts dressing up alot and becomes real good at being your standard con man type. 4. Kirk starts smoking cigars, and keeps saying "I love it when a plan comes together." 5. The whole Star Trek crew (except for Uhura, who's part in stealing the Enterprise remains undiscovered) are all wanted men, and decide to hire themselves out for protection and blowing things up, and... YES, ITS STAR TREK IV: THE "B" (movie) TEAM (a standard effect will be starships which hit an asteroid, flip over, and crash, then the crew all climb out and escape right before they blow up in a ball of fire...) Alan ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: best science fiction films Date: 23 Feb 85 02:58:46 GMT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA > We have had some fun discussing the worst SF films, but the > challenge still stands, to name the best SF films. I find that a > hard challenge, and would like to take a little time to explain why > . . . . . The result (according to one biased observer): > > Fritz Lang : Metropolis (1926) > > Frank Capra : Lost Horizon (1937) > > Rudolph Mate' : When Worlds Collide (1951) -- (for the 40's) > > Fred McLeod Wilcox : Forbidden Planet (1956) > > Roger Vadim : Barbarella (1967) > > Here I stop, being able neither to ignore "2001" > nor to accept it. > > Robert Firth Ok, I agree with Metropolis and Forbidden Planet, and maybe When Worlds Collide (having only read the book), but to leave out 2001, The Day the Earth Stood Still, and to include Barbarella? Even leaving out considerations of quality, Barbarella was more a fantasy than science fiction. -- John L. Templer University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley "Gongo Bunnies movin' in, ------------------------------ From: ratex!mck@topaz (Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan) Subject: Best and Worst SF Films Date: 23 Feb 85 04:20:59 GMT Well, here are my opinions [And the cry issues forth: 'WHO CARES!!']: The best movie that I've ever seen (SF or otherwise) is *Blade Runner*. It should be seen in a good theater to be properly appreciated (the time that I saw it in a cheap threater from a print with breaks, and that I saw it on video-tape were both awful disappointments). It develops a world-view which is unrelentingly bleak -- until the climax of the confrontation between Derrick and Batty, when, from the despair and horror, a message of great beauty emerges. Now, I've seen *Plan 9 from Outer Space*, *They Saved Hitler's Brain*, and *The Man with the Synthetic Brain*; these are all bad movies (the two *Brain* movies involved splicing additional footage -- obviously filmed some time after the main footage -- does anybody out there have details about this?). But a far worse film is *The Creeping Terror*; I've only seen short excerpts, but they were god-awful. Larry Cipriani has seen the whole movie (as an existential experience I guess) and he assures me that the excerpts are representative and that *Terror* is far worse than *Plan 9*. [And the cry issues forth: WHAT DO YOU KNOW!!] DKMcK ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz Subject: Re: SF movies (ZARDOZ) Date: 23 Feb 85 02:45:00 GMT /**** ccvaxa:net.sf-lovers / leeper@ahuta / 11:19 pm Feb 20, 1985 ****/ >Doesn't anyone remember A BOY AND HIS DOG? Come on now!! >Gaylene > Sure, I remember it. The scenes above ground were decent. Then it turned into a pretentious bore. This *thing* won the hugo based on Harlan Ellison's name, but if it has been written by Otto Schwartz it would be really forgotten by now. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!leeper /* ---------- */ Oh, I don't know. Even Michael Moorcock's name couldn't rescue *The Last Days of Man on Earth* (based on *Breakfast in the Ruins*). Now that was an absolutely awful movie. "When you are about to die, a wombat is better than no company at all." Roger Zelazney, *Doorways in the Sand* Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ From: cord!ggr@topaz (Guy Riddle) Subject: Prisoner Appreciation Society Date: 22 Feb 85 16:29:25 GMT An address for the Prisoner Appreciation Society was announced after last night's episode. This is what I copied down (it might even be right): Prisoner Appreciation Society "6 of One" P. O. Box 66 Ipswitch IP2 9TZ England And, no, I don't know what they will do to you if you contact them. === Guy Riddle == AT&T Bell Laboratories, New Jersey === ggr.btl@csnet-relay.ARPA ihnp4!ggr ------------------------------ From: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight) Subject: Late nite with nothing Date: 22 Feb 85 06:57:52 GMT Someone said that Douglas Adams was going to appear on Thursdays Late Night with David Letterman. Well, he didn't! (That is, he wasn't on Thurs. Feb 21st.) Now I suppose all sorts of people will inform me that it was last Thursday's show. To head off this type of response I'll just gripe that the person who submitted the article should have stated Thursday Feb. xx instead of just Thursday. ------------------------------ From: pur-phy!dub@topaz (Dwight) Subject: To L.K.Turner Date: 20 Feb 85 14:05:04 GMT > I would like to poll the views of all you out in net land, with > the aim of summarising the results, to find out what the collective > view on this is. > So if you are interested send your votes to me via mail to :- > ...mcvax!ukc!lkt > == L.K.T I can't figure out how to mail to mcvax. Is there some "popular" machine (like decvax or ihnp4 or ucbvax etc...) that I can reach you through? D. Bartholomew UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs }!pur-ee! pur-phy!dub { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax }|purdue! pur-phy!dub ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Feb 85 0755-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #73 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 73 Today's Topics: Books - Neuromancer & LeGuin & Silverberg & Computers in Science Fiction & Cherryh/Lee & Anthony (3 msgs), Television - Commander Cody, Miscellaneous - Boskone 22 (2 msgs) & Con Observation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 1985 10:07 EST From: Rob MacLachlan Subject: Neuromancer Is there any similar connection with "Burning Chrome"? (I have a hunch that the deck jockey might be the same one from "Burning Chrome", but I can't check it out right now.) I believe that they have different names. I remember getting the distinct impression that "Neuromancer" occurs some years after "Burning Chrome". I believe that one of my reasons for beleiveing this was that in "Burning Chrome", the coyboy's sidekick (who hacked his hardware), lost his arm in the same ill-fated attack against the USSR that Wintermute's agent was in, yet the former was young and the latter was moderately old. The Gentleman Loser (bar) is definitely the same. I remeber wondering if the junk-shop guy who had the virus program in "Buring Chrome" was the same as the similar character in "Neuromancer", but I didn't bother to check. Rob ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Pointers please? Date: 23 Feb 85 10:12:53 EST (Sat) From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA Ursula LeGuin wrote a short story about a group mind called "Vaster than Empires and More Slow". It's in the anthology "The Wind's Twelve Quarters. It's a rather striking story about a group of misfits sent out to the stars as an exploration team. They land on a curious planet that has no animals on it. The entire planet is a group mind, of sorts, made up of plants. Interesting... Enjoy! Our vegetable love should grow Vaster than empires, and more slow.... -Nancy ------------------------------ From: uiucuxa!asb224@topaz Subject: Re: Majipoor Chronicles Date: 22 Feb 85 22:02:00 GMT I must heartily agree regarding the Majipoor books by Silverberg. I was a bit surprised by them, actually, as I don't like much of his early work. The books are superb, in my opinion, chiefly for the imagination and originality which marks them. I recommend them for all that haven't read them. -Fred Brunner UIUC ------------------------------ Date: 23 February 1985 13:43:34 EST From: Subject: COMPUTERS IN SCIENCE FICTION One of Robert Heinlein's books (The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?) had a computer named Mycroft, who helped the young hero achieve his rightful estate. Hogan is probably the most technically proficient computer-focused SF writer I've come across, but credit for the most ingenious SF motif by a technically knowledgeable writer has to go to Thomas J. Ryan, author of THE ADOLESCENCE OF P-1 (Macmillan, 1977). P-1 is the computer generation's Frankenstein's Monster. P-1 comes to "life" while its creator is a super-hacker sex-crazed student at the University of Waterloo. After aiding its creator with a number of devious money-making affairs, it escapes destruction and "runs away" via telecommunications lines. The Huckleberry Finn adventures of P-1 culminate in a show-down with the forces of the Pentagon. Some nifty little touches in this one. (The introductory quote, which precedes the title page, is from Woody Allen: "Nothing works...and nobody cares.") ------------------------------ From: osiris!eric@topaz (Eric Bergan) Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF Subject: authors... Date: 23 Feb 85 17:15:25 GMT > How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's > stuff or Tanith Lee's works? I liked Cherryh's Downbelow Station a > lot and much of Tanith Lee's wierder stories. A friend of mine > however won't read any of that stuff on first principles. To > paraphrase him, "after all, how many really good female SF authors > do you know?" I personally think that the number is certainly > substantial. I guess a lot of female SF writers though are still > suffering from prejudices such as this and find that they must hide > behind names which are patently male or gender non-specific. Cases > in point are C.J.Cherryh and Andre Norton. I pity your friend, he is missing out on some very good SF. I have read all of Cherryh's stuff, and much of it is very good (the short stories in Sunfall, the Kesrith series, Downbelow Station). I am not a fan of Tanith Lee, but there are other female authors who are also outstanding (Le Guin, Kate Wilhelm, some of MacCaffrey's work, and some of McIntyre's). As with anything else, there are good and bad female SF authors (and some that are uneven). -- eric ...!seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!osiris!eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun 24 Feb 85 01:23:31-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #68 I'm sorry, Piers Anthony is just not that good. In particular I dislike the offensively cute Xanth series. The first book was marginally acceptable as offbeat, but it has gotten progressively worse; I could not force myself to read the latest book in the series. Besides the generally unremarkable literary quality, I am offended by his insufferably poor (not BAD, as a good bad pun) puns and his continual simplistic moralizing. I do not think much of most of his later stuff, although I am not saying he cannot write well occasionally. My favorite of his is Macroscope, written quite some time ago, and of his more recent work I prefer this rather strange Incarnations series. The Split Infinity series was just uninteresting; the main plot dilemmas lately all seem to involve an extended decision not to exercise power, kind of like Thomas Covenant's six-book dithering. Now I am not saying that an author is forbidden to express his ideas and beliefs in his work; quite the opposite. However, when the characters and situations are so patently artificial, I lose interest in both the story and the author's point meta the story. Xanth seems to have been designed explicitly to create the situations that Anthony is exploiting in his novels, designed in a different sense, than say, Niven designed Ringworld. I also find that Anthony's novels have a kind of synthetic or plastic feeling about them, a sense of reality that often obtains in the most bizarre settings is absent, and I find myself not able to suspend my disbelief high enough. Compare Anthony's writing with Delany's, and you will se what I mean. Delany has had novels set in even weirder places than Anthony, but except (in my opinion) for his Neveryona, all the settings have seemed far more real. In a previous message I compared Steven Brust's Jhereg with Sheri Tepper's Wizard's Eleven trilogy, and I think that much of Anthony's work also belongs with Tepper's in this "I can't believe this is happening" category. However, I liked Tepper's characterizations, and I can't say the same, in general, for Anthony. I generally try to avoid this kind of criticism, but I am just kind of surprised at the massive following Anthony's Xanth series seems to have gathered. I should like to repeat that I have enjoyed several of his books and stories, and would prefer to think that they, rather than the Xanth-type stuff are his norm. -Laurence ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry) Subject: Re:Re: Piers Anthony Date: 24 Feb 85 02:42:37 GMT Yes, while the latest (and the not so latest) Xanth stuff is BORING, and filled with bad puns, not so hot writing and static plots, the NEW Piers Anthony series (2 out) "Incarnations of Immortality" are quite interesting. Try them before ruling out Anthony as a casualty. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 85 11:31:25 PST (Sunday) From: Michael Tallan Subject: Re: Piers Anthony I have to add one of my favorite books by Piers Anthony to the ones that have been mentioned. "Thousandstar" was one of the first of his that I read and now, after about a dozen more, still ranks at the top of the list (along with the Apprentice Adept series, which is also great). Without my copy of the book at hand I cannot describe it with justice, but suffice it to say that it concerns a person whose mind is transported to the body of an alien for the purposes of a quest. The alien's mind is still there and the conversations the two have as they try to understand each other's culture are very well done. They must compete with other such pairs on the same quest and along the way discover that individual friendships can overcome racial fears. What makes the book so enjoyable is the inventiveness with which Anthony creates situations for the characters to get in and out of, the descriptions of some really strange alien physiologies, and the ways in which the main pair and several others interrelate. The whole book is a joy and I recommend it. -- Michael Tallan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Feb 85 11:46 EST From: Richard Pavelle Subject: Commander Cody and Flash Gordon Date: Monday, 11 Feb 1985 12:22-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Commander Cody and Flash Gordon Hey, out there in netland, do any of you remember the 50's TV show Commander Cody. I don't remember much from it, but as I recall it was a show that was way ahead of its time. There was also a TV show, Flash Gordon, not the Buster Crabbe thing, that was a half hour weekly show that lasted a year or two. Anyone recall, or have any info on who starred, produced, etc. any of these? Who can forget Commando Cody. He was Sky Marshall of the Universe and then some. I remember it well although it ran only a few months in 1955 on NBC. We all know that Judd Holdran played Cody but what were the names of Cody's sidekicks? Also, did Holdren appear in the cinema version too? And how about Flash Gordon! In the summer of 1949, I believe, they first began broadcasts of the 30 minute Buster Crabbe serial. At the end of episode 1, Flash is confronted by a horned (horny? they all go after Dale) gorilla which he kills. But the end of episode 2 may be the first example of TV censorship. He fights a reptillian monster and it was considered too intense for children. The station in New York terminated the broadcast at the start of the confrontation. I was really disappointed and waited a long time before seeing a full broadcast of that episode. Does anyone else recall this censorship event or more details? I think it was Channel 13 in NYC. ------------------------------ From: bnl!davison@topaz (Dan Davison) Subject: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution:flamethrower set on broil) Date: 21 Feb 85 23:23:52 GMT I've just returned from Boskone 22, and the news is not good. As usual, they had more people than they wanted; 2300 was the last number I heard. Actually I was so disgusted with the fall of NESFA that I didn't bother going to the con Sunday and Monday. First, however, the good news: o the Boxboro party was *excellent*. They really know how to throw a good party and a good time appeared to be had by all. o the limited events available were for the most part well run Now for the bad news, in increasing order of disgust (NESFA fen, you may not want to read this): o the parties were shut down by the hotel at 3 AM. Somebody didn't do their work correctly; that's way too early. (ok-hotel problem) o the elevators apparently read HHTTG, since they went on strike for most of the con, making it an exercise in paitence to get to the various parties. (ok, another hotel problem) o Long flame: I will never again have anything to do with Boskone, NESFA, or their attempts at getting the '89 ('90?) worldcon, except possibly to work against the last. They were charging $22.00 at the door for => one day admission <= , the same as for the full event. I thought this was suspicious, especially since the people working the registration desk offered the stunningly lame excuse that "with these badges we can't tell one day people from all-weekend people". In less than 10 minutes in theregistration area I heard *at least* 10 people express surprise and disgust...but they still paid. The same people ran the '80 worldcon, had more people and still had day memberships. So the excuse is pure bu******. What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a uniform $22.00: greed. Yep, GREED. The *** are buying a clubhouse and are using fen from all over the northeast to generate money for their relatively private use. "But they deserve it, they've put on great cons for 42 +/- something years". Yep, they've put on great cons (interesting how they've slightly adjusted the meaning of the word, eh?) but this is a gross violation and ripoff of everything fandom has stood for. (as an aside, the '80 worldcon had an approximately $32,000 profit, so the Worldcon committee knows what they're doing [figure from the Noreascon Memory book]). (flamethrower now set to "stun" rather than "broil") o I also was informed several times that the lousy film/video schedule was deliberate, because they didn't want riff-raff (no not him!) off the streets coming in "just to see the movies". Phoooooeeeeey. Moral of the story: (part 1): DON'T GO TO BOSKONE OR SUPPORT THEIR WORLDCON BID! (part II): I guess the yuppie-me-generation selfishness can reach all types. For some reason I thought fen were different. dan davison davison@bnl.arpa davison@bnl.bitnet ...decvax!philabs!sbcs!bnl!davison ------------------------------ From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed Date: 24 Feb 85 01:40:49 GMT I am not a member of NESFA and have only attended one Boskone (the most recent). From: cmcl2!bnl!davison@seismo (Dan Davison) >They were charging $22.00 at the door for => one day admission <= , >the same as for the full event. I thought this was suspicious, >especially since the people working the registration desk offered >the stunningly lame excuse that "with these badges we can't tell one >day people from all-weekend people". You're right here; this is incredibly lame. >What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a uniform >$22.00: greed. Yep, GREED. The *** are buying a clubhouse and are >using fen from all over the northeast to generate money for their >relatively private use. Uh, Dan, what do you think groups that sponsor cons do with the profits? Send all the fen who attended a rebate? No, they *keep* them and they use them for their group. I'd expect that some of this year's profits are going to next year's Boskone, too. Maybe groups should publish what they're going to do with profits so you can find out before you register, but if you care that much maybe you'll ask first. If you objected to the plans for the money, you didn't have to go, but if you didn't do any research before paying your money you have only yourself to blame. -Dragon -- UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry) Subject: Re: "...I just read the stuff" Date: 24 Feb 85 03:03:56 GMT If your question was actually like "can you fit enough fans/people into an elevator at *any* Boskone, regardless of the hotel?" the answer is "of course you can't". But it is quite amazing how many net.people you find roaming around at cons. Maybe some will get around to hacking the elevators. Mikki Barry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Feb 85 0239-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #74 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 74 Today's Topics: Books - Yolen & Killgore Trout & Forward & Science Fiction Book Club (3 msgs), Movies - Saxon & Computers in Films & Buckaroo Banzai & Star Trek IV & Cocoon, Television - Dr. Who & Star Trek II & The Prisoner, Miscellaneous - Favorite Alien & Group Mind (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 February 1985 07:37:25 EST From: Subject: BURIALS AND GRAVESTONES > The scary part is look at what history tells us about > civilizations that start spending significate portions of their GNP > on burials and gravestones. They all seem to collapse shortly > after. Read Jane Yolen's CARDS OF GRIEF for a great treatment of a culture that revolves around death and mourning. It's out in Ace paperback, and also an SF Book Club selection. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 25 Feb 85 10:43:34-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #69 >a Vonnegut novel VENUS ON THE HALF SHELL which has some >psuedonym for an author name great giggleto read not quite >sci-fi though This is NOT a Vonnegut novel. The author is "Killgore Trout," which Vonnegut afficionados will recognize as the name of the favorite author of most of his characters. This incarnation of K. T. is none other than Phil Farmer, in one of the most drawn-out literary hoaxes in recent history: Everyone in VENUS likes the stories of "Jonathan Swift Somers, III" about a talking German Shepherd named "Ralph von Wau Wau" (I kid you not). I've read a couple of these in F&SF; I don't remember if the characters in these had a favorite author or not, but I sort of lost interest at that point, anyway. Bibliography may not be my business, but all those years in grad school made it easy... Rich Alderson@{Score, Sierra} ------------------------------ From: hpfclg!bayes@topaz (bayes) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 12 Feb 85 20:39:00 GMT Sure sounds like your Analog story is at least the basis for The Flight of the Dragonfly (which I just read last week, so it's still reasonably fresh in memory). Did they send the exploration ship with a laser beam to accelerate it, and decelerate by detaching part of the sail and reflecting back on the ship at turnaround, as in the book version? I think Forward tended to get a lot more pretentious in TFotD than he was in Dragon's Egg. The humans started these (abortive?) relationships, which never really got pursued later in the book. Fine, if you're going to carry the thing through, otherwise just give me good ol' concept type SF. hpfcla!bayes (pronounced "Throatwarbler-Mangrove") ------------------------------ From: mwm%ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA@topaz Subject: "Golden Witchbreed" and the SF book club Date: 25 Feb 85 03:18:19 GMT Reply-to: mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob) [A good ochmir player cheats, but only if he has to.] Another yes vote for the SF Book Club. Though no longer competitive (pricewise) with paperbacks, they are still cheaper than tradebacks, and of comparable or better quality. Also, they occasionally show up with something excellent from right field (like TC the U while everybody else was trying to tell me how great an unnamed-to-avoid-flames TLOR ripoff was). For instance, the last package from them had "Golden Witchbreed" by Mary Gentle. The cover blurbs compare it to "Dune", and I think they've got it about right. She builds an interesting world, and populates it with interesting people and societies. Has anybody seen this in the US (it was published in Britain in '83)? Have any of you in the UK seen anything about the sequel "The Twilight Shore?" I've been in the book club twice now. Overall my reaction to their > selection is an old fashioned "raspberry"! They have a few oldies > but goodies, alot of current (last two or three years), and VERY > few new ones. Also, the new ones are never available till after > they make it to the bookstores. In other words, go for the > freebies when you sign-up, but get out ASAP. > What we need is good old fashioned competition in the sci-fi > bookclub market!! I find that it is okay though not great to be in the Book Club. In fact I am often in it twice. I keep one membership for continuity, and join a second one everytime I have built up a list of books that I think are worth having. The ones that I simply "have to have" I get with the "continuity membership". The SF Book Club in the long term certainly stinks relative to the costs for a new member. But it sure seems worth belonging to. (Right now I'm only in once, I haven't built up enough that I want to re-rejoin. (If they ever objected; I think that that would be the end of my 8 year associations with them.) The books are comperable to some bookstore quality. (In fact, they are often identical.) However, the prices have been going up, though they are still ~< 1/2 of bookstore prices on the identical book. -- ---------------------------------- Jim Davis (James W Davis) Email: {any_of_the_biggies} !hplabs!davis Arpa: davis%hp-labs@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: hplabs!davis@topaz (Jim Davis) Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB Date: 25 Feb 85 12:01:32 GMT > Finally, upon request, the club will allow you to change to an > order only relationship; that is, you will only be sent books which > you have requested, rather than all books which you did not reject. > This can save a lot of hassle. Don Keen Are you sure; have you done this? When I tried that they said no way. If you actually did get converted into a positive acknowledgement basis, please send a copy of the correspondence you used to that end. I would like to do the same. Perhaps they have changed their position in the last two years. -- ---------------------------------- Jim Davis (James W Davis) Email: {any_of_the_biggies} !hplabs!davis Arpa: davis%hp-labs@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random) Subject: Re: John Saxon and Genesis II Date: 23 Feb 85 01:58:42 GMT If anyone could tell me, I would like to remember the name of the third film I mentioned. This is where 3 people and in a suspended animation experiment in a space station when a war breaks out. the orbitis changed for the station to arrive back at earth in 180 years (when the radiation) is gone. They are in a scaled down version of the trucks of _Damnation Alley_ and first find a paradise where people are kept alive by transplants from their clones and then they find a group of savages and game wardens in an old zoo. Any ideas? Random Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ From: jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington) Subject: re: computers in films (microtrivia) Date: 24 Feb 85 00:19:50 GMT > From: rachiele@NADC > > There were DECMATES (or something similar, all decs look alike to > me) all over the place in the BH police station.(1st generation?) > Jim probably Rainbows...(they do look similar) -- James Steven Carrington jsc@berkeley.arpa ucbvax!jsc ------------------------------ Date: 24 Feb 1985 16:57:55 GMT (Sunday) From: Jon McCombie Subject: Buckaroo Banzai on video-tape NOW I rented a copy from my local video-tape-rental outlet last night. I found no differences 'twixt the movie-house and my house. Just remember: "Wherever you go, there you are." Jon ------------------------------ From: ukc!tgm@topaz (T.Murphy) Subject: RE: Star Trek IV Date: 24 Feb 85 14:03:43 GMT What about 'The Search for David?' ...mcvax!ukc!tcdmath!jaymin or Joe Jaquinta c/o D.U. Maths Society Trinity College Dublin Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 17:06:26 est From: mar@mit-borax (Mark A. Rosenstein) Subject: Cocoon From the March '85 issue of Box Office: Twentieth Century Fox has pushed up the release of it's science-fantasy adventure, "Cocoon" from the original Christmas '85 date to a summer release. It is directed by Ron Howard (Splash), produced by Richard Zanuck, starring Maureen Stapleton, Don Ameche, Wilford Brimley, and Steve Guttenberg. With effects by ILM. Cocoon is the story of what happens when a group of aliens return to Earth to retrieve their friends, who had been left behind in cocoons a thousand years ago when the aliens' city had sunk into the ocean. When they arrive, the aliens rent a Florida estate and fill its swimming pool with a liquid that keeps the cocoons alive. Next door to the estate there's a retirement community. And when several of the residents sneak over to take a dip in the pool, they find themselves rejuvenated and feeling like 20-year-olds. -Mark Rosenstein mar@mit-borax.arpa "We're not in the eigth dimension, we're over New Jersy!" ------------------------------ From: iwm%icdoc.ac.uk@topaz (Ian Moor) Subject: Re: Whoites or Trekies? Date: 12 Feb 85 16:47:54 GMT Reply-to: iwm@ic-ika.UUCP (Ian Moor) In article <459@topaz.ARPA> @RUTGERS.ARPA:milne@uci-icse writes: > I think you mean simply that "Dr. Who" is English. I think it's > actually made by one of ITV's (Independent TeleVision) > divisions, Lionheart. ITV is Britain's commercial network , > though not nearly so commercial as the North American ones. NO NO !! Dr. Who is made by the BBC which is definitely not commercial. There are certainly are commercial spinoffs - any number of paperbacks, comics, toys and videos (I doubt if there are any in NTSC format though). You can tell its not commercial because there are no climaxes to hold you over the break.. We get Startrek without any adverts and its easy to tell when they should come, suddenly you realize Kirk is trapped, fade ... > Greater popularity in England? I would expect so, but I don't > know. Yes - most people I know watch regularly, there are cons regularly, and both pro and fanzines. -- Ian W. Moor The squire on the hippopotamus is equal Department of Computing to the sons of the other two squires. 180 Queensgate London SW7 Uk. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 24 Feb 1985 21:58:33-PST From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Rabbit, you're - you're From: despicable!!) Subject: Star Trek II on ABC I just watched Star Trek II on ABC this evening. I wasn't expecting a good presentation, knowing how networks love to chop things up. I really thought that things were bad when the words 'Edited for Television' appeared after the opening credits. I was rather surprised. For the most part, the commercial breaks were well-placed, coming (mostly) at logical points in the plot of the movie (except for the last few that took place in the middle of the end battle, which should have been shown in its entirety). I didn't really notice that very much was cut out, which was also heartening. What was most upsetting, however, was the fact that there was SEVERAL MINUTES OF NEVER-SEEN-BEFORE FOOTAGE IN THE PRESENTATION!! There was a whole lot of MEANINGFUL dialog that NEVER made it to the wide screen or to cable or to videotape/disk. Some of the extra bits seen tonight for the first time: * Extra lines in the Kobayashi Maru (sp?) simulation scene * More dialog in the scene where McCoy gives Kirk his glasses in Kirk's apartment * We find out that Peter Preston is (1) Scotty's grandson or some such, and (2) has a big lip for such an underling. * More dialog in the scene where Khan meets Chekov and the Reliant captain * More dialog between Kirk, McCoy and Scotty in Sick Bay when Peter Preston dies, explaining WHY Scotty was upset to tears. And on, and on, throughout the movie. The question that comes to this observer is: WHY did the NETWORKS end up with this 'augmented' version? Why didn't this end up in the theaters? Or cable? Or videodisk/tape? The second one of course is when WILL it? John Francini, DEC Maynard p.s. My favorite new line is spoken by Spock in the beginning of the battle scene in the Mutara Nebula. When asked by Savvik why Kirk knew that Khan would follow the Enterprise into the nebula, he replied, "Remind me to tell you sometime about the concept of the human ego." Warp speed. ------------------------------ From: abnji!nyssa@topaz (nyssa of traken) Subject: Re: Prisoner Appreciation Society Date: 25 Feb 85 18:06:57 GMT >An address for the Prisoner Appreciation Society was announced after >last night's episode. This is what I copied down (it might even be >right): > > Prisoner Appreciation Society > "6 of One" > P. O. Box 66 > Ipswitch IP2 9TZ I think that is "Ipswich". (1982 UEFA Cup Champions) > England > >And, no, I don't know what they will do to you if you contact them. Take you to the village? :-) -- James C Armstrong, Jnr. { ihnp4 || allegra || mcnc || cbosgb } !abnji!jca "You said you came from Fulham." "Griffiths, when I look at you, I wonder why your ancestors bothered to climb out of the primordial slime." ------------------------------ From: utcsri!myers@topaz (Brad A. Myers) Subject: favorite alien Date: 22 Feb 85 18:36:09 GMT This may be a new topic(!). What is your favorite alien in Science Fiction? I have read a lot, but my favorites are the Puppeteers (maybe because I like ostriches) by Niven, and the Little Fuzzies by Piper. Are there other really neat creations out there that I haven't read about? Thanks, Brad Myers Univ of Toronto ------------------------------ Subject: Group Mind/consciousness From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (M.A. Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 1985 01:47 EST I'm surpised that no one has mentioned the Planet/Group Consciousness Gaia from Asimov's Foundation's Edge. The planet Gaia is peopled with humans? who are all part of the group mind, which is the entire planet, the earth, the trees, the rocks, etc. Golan Trevize has gone in search of Gaia because he believes that the 2nd Foundation can be found on Gaia. Gaia's role is not that of the 2nd Foundation, but it is revealed that Gaia is the birthplace of The Mule. Thus, The Mule had been a part of the group consciousness and had somehow escaped that group mind without detection. This may or may not be an enlightening tidbit, but Gaia is an excellent representation of a group mind. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Feb 1985 14:02 EST (Mon) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Group Minds I believe that Kieth Laumer's "House in November" involved a group mind, and a battle to destroy it. ------------------------------ Subject: Group mind Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 15:07:46 EST From: Monique Barbancon How about G.R.R Martin's "A song for Lya" ? It's a short story about two humans telepaths meeting an alien group mind entity. Definitely worth reading... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Feb 85 0323-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #75 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 75 Today's Topics: Books - Gibson (2 msgs) & Anthony & de Lint & Simak & Lafferty & Chalker & Illuminatus & Cherryh/Lee (3 msgs) & The Prisoner (2 msgs), Movies - Saxon (2 msgs), Television - V & Star Trek II (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Boskone 22 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 13:32 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: William Gibson query #66 brought the following query: From: oliveb!long@topaz (Dave Long) "Neuromancer" is certainly a good book. Does anyone know if William Gibson has written anything else besides "Neuromancer", "Burning Chrome", and "Johnny Mnemonic"? I don't know about novels, but I believe Gibson has published short fiction in F&SF and elsewhere over the last several years. His first published short story, "Fragments of a Hologram Rose," appeared in issue #3 of Unearth Magazine in 1977. Gardner Dozois gave it an honorable mention in his best of the year anthology in '78. ------------------------------ From: osiris!jcp@topaz (Jody Patilla) Subject: Re: Neuromancer Date: 24 Feb 85 23:02:59 GMT "Johnny Mnemonic" and "Burning Chrome" both appeared in OMNI about a year and a half and two and half years ago, I think (I dug up the back issues when I bought "Neuromancer"). Both of them share characters with "Neuromancer", but definitely precede the events in the book. Molly Millions figures prominently in "Johnny Mnemonic" and "Neuromancer" - the book tells you something about what happened after the short story ended. All three are excellent reading, I highly recommend them. jcpatilla ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 25 Feb 85 20:20:57 EST (Mon) From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA From: lionel%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) I've enjoyed Piers Anthony's Xanth books, his Cluster trilogy (with a related book Viscous Circle), the Blue Adept/Split Infinity/ Juxtaposition trilogy, etc., but there's one Anthony novel that surpasses all of these. It is the first novel of his I ever read, and it was maybe 10 years before I saw another. The title is Macroscope and it is awesome. I second that message. Macroscope was one of the novels that turned me from fantasy to sf. Great stuff. Enjoy! -Nancy nancy@mit-htvax ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@topaz (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Review: Moonheart by Chas. de Lint Date: 23 Feb 85 03:40:02 GMT > A Review by Brett Slocum > > MOONHEART is one of the best books I've read for several years. > Charles I really have to differ with Brett here. I was very uncomfortable with Moonheart, and to a lesser degree with Riddle of the Wren. De Lint comes across to me as a very _serious_ writer, one who can't take himself lightly and give the reader a break. He somehow manages to combine in Moonheart a series of obviously personal obsessions: Celtic music, Celtic art, folklore and mythology of North American *and* the British Isles, science fantasy (by that I mean S&S), and on and on. Now don't get me wrong, I like Celtic art and Silly Wizard and all that stuff too, I just don't like seeing it *all* stuffed headlong into one book. He doesn't do any of these valuable cultural gems justice, and his attitude seems to be, "Boy, this stuff is really neat and I just have to put it in, too! And this! And this, too!" I felt that de Lint really needed to develop a bit of self-control. It would also help if he took himself less seriously, and tried not to be sf's avatar of Celtic culture. There are a lot of other writers out there trying to do the same thing. De Lint succeeds rather better than some, but decidedly worse than others. Well written, yes, but with more enthusiasm than talent. I'm looking forward to more mature works from him, though. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 03:26:31 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) > Clifford Simak is consistently entertaining, but I always feel like > I know what to expect; as if he is following some very structured > writing formula he learned in college. In general I agree, but a few of his works stand out for their incredible creativity. "Way Station" is one. > The only writers I really admire today (i.e. would like to emulate > in some way) are Gene Wolfe (such strange imagery; what complex > human feelings from a science-fiction character), John Crowley > (Little, Big was really fantasy, I suppose, but the imagery and the > vision of (subtle, not prestitigitatious) magic was so strong for > me), and whoever wrote "Parsival, a knight's tale" and "the grail > war." I guess I have some reading to do. -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 09:50:28-EST From: P. David Lebling Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #71 Dave Weininger's "trolley story" is probably "Interurban Rail" by R. A. Lafferty. (The title may not be exactly right here). The story was probably in one of the later Orbits. Dave (pdl@mit-xx) ------------------------------ To: Newman.pasa@xerox.arpa Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #58 Date: 26 Feb 85 11:08:12 EST (Tue) From: mrose@udel-dewey Chalker is almost as prolific as Piers Anthony (or vice-versa). Perhaps they're the same person armed with a word-processor... I liked the River of the Dancing Gods series best (though am still waiting on the release of the third book). In just about all of his books, Chalker envisions some sort of tangible entity (e.g., the well, eyes of baal in "and the devil will drag you under", coldahs in the "four diamonds" series, etc.) which direct the operation of the universe. In the river series, there's this alternate earth (earth') which is goverened by the book of rules. A committee of good and evil magicians vote on the rules therein. Typical rule: "in every party of seven, there is one member who can not be trusted". Actually, a lot of them are quite funny. *spoiler** The major plot revolves around one magician who can travel between earth and earth'. The bad guys are trying to pervert earth' (since God gave up on it) and to launch an attack to earth. Needless to say, the good magician, having experienced both earth and earth' is one formidable opponent, despite overwhelming odds, since the bad guys haven't heard of things like napalm or vintage films... Where, or where is that third book? (Chalker, a retired DEC salesman, seems to have been spending all of his time on the Soul Rider series.) /mtr ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!bllklly@topaz (Bill Kelly) Subject: Re: Re: Illuminati Date: 25 Feb 85 23:35:11 GMT My favorite fnord little thing in fnord the Illuminati trilogy was fnord the theory that fnord everything we fnord read has the fnord word "fnord" sprinkled throughout, fnord which we are taught fnord not to see by fnord early conditioning. It is this conflict fnord that causes most of the fnord disharmony in the world. Fnord reminds me a little fnord of the explanation for fnord HAL's schizophrenia in 2001. The best fnord scene in the Illuminati books by my fnord reckoning is the one in which fnord the protagonist finally breaks through fnord the conditioning -- while reading a fnord newspaper in a quiet library fnord, he leaps up screaming: "I see the fnords!" -- Bill Kelly {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 ------------------------------ From: chabot%miles.DEC@topaz (L. S. Chabot) Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF Subject: authors... Date: 25 Feb 85 21:56:32 GMT Well, let's see: rejoinders to "just how many good female science fiction authors are there anyway"...in a pinch, a favorite repartee is to ridicule the person's ideas of good science fiction. You start out with "Well, just how many good *male* science fiction authors are there anyway?" and get the person to name the authors held dearest, and then snort and criticize the ones you know, and declare "*Never* heard of him" while obviously implying that he can't be good if not well-known. Fight fire with fire, I say. It may be hard to put down the subject matter as being "only *men's* issues" (so that you're saying that they aren't worthy of consideration by the educated portions of the human race, but only concern "typical" men's concerns which everybody knows are racing forms and power lawn mowers :-) ), but, heck, the exercise in sarcasm is probably worth the effort. Of course, we should only be so lucky as to get such a fool as above to list James Tiptree, Jr. as a favorite...on the other hand, you might not be able to withstand the mirth! (and, sadly, it's no longer very likely) I like to try to worm such discussions around to how none of the person's favorites can compare to biggies of conventional literature, such as, say, George Eliot. L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 11:00 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Cherryh, Tanith Lee, etc. I feel that C.J. Cherryh is one of top female authors in either the SF or Fantasy field. Downbelow Station was masterful, the Morgaine Trilogy was excellent, and The Tree of Swords and Jewels (the sequel to Dreamstone, which I haven't read) was very good. She is one of those people who are equally at home in either genre. To your friend, I suggest you have him read some of her work, especially Downbelow Station, Serpent's Reach, and The Faded Sun Trilogy. He is missing some of the best work in the field by his silly "first principles". He sounds awfully chavinistic to me. He may be beyond hope. I have also read Tanith Lee's Death's Master, which I thought was excellent. But unfortunately, this is the only one of hers that I've read. I find female authors in general to be far more interesting than most male authors. I think that the prejudice is waning, and that the majority of readers accept female authors. Your friend is the exception, not the rule. Brett ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 11:44:23-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #70 I have been reading all of Cherryh's sf over the past few weeks, and I would have stopped if I didn't like it. I rather like the Han and the cultures of the Compact and am waiting for Chanur's Revenge, whenever it comes out. Based on her SF I read one of her fantasy novels, umm, I think it was Tree of Swords and Jewels, but didn't really like it a lot. Neither have I liked Tanith Lee's fantasy (i'm including her in this message because someone else did. Also, before I had read either author, I had kind of lumped them together in my mind as Daw hack-authors....) So, what do you think about the Cnnn? How could such a chaotic species have evolved space-faring technology, or even fire-sharpened spears? They must have something up their sleeves.... -Laurence "With notch-less ears" ------------------------------ From: mit-athena!martillo@topaz (Joaquim Martillo) Subject: Re: Prisoner Books Date: 25 Feb 85 05:53:24 GMT Before Patrick McGoohan played the Prisoner, he played another series called Secret Agent. Was there a tie in? In the theme song was the line, "They've given you a number and taken away your name." ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Prisoner Books, T.H.R.U.S.H. Date: 24 Feb 85 19:32:48 GMT One interesting point about David McDaniel's Prisoner book is the first sentence, "Drake woke." Dave wrote that knowing that Ace Books was going to be sending the manuscript to McGoohan for approval, in order to satisfy his own curiosity as to whether McGoohan would permit that explicit tie in in the official canon between "Secret Agent" and "The Prisoner." It got published, so apparently.... Incidentally, if anyone's interested in some of the stranger points of McDaniel's U.N.C.L.E. (and Hierarchy) stuff, mention it. I was one of his best friends for the last ten years of his life. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: mit-athena!martillo@topaz (Joaquim Martillo) Subject: Re: "Genesis II" and John Saxon.... Date: 25 Feb 85 05:59:44 GMT In the second post-bomb movie (Planet Earth? with the Amazons -- who were mentioned in the first movie) the bad guys are the Kreeg. They reappeared in Star Trek -- The Movie as none other than the Klingons. ------------------------------ From: wjvax!ron@topaz (Ron Christian) Subject: Re: not John Saxon. Speaking of Genisis II.... Date: 26 Feb 85 03:43:35 GMT Anyone know what book the plot for Genisis II came from? 'Armagedon 2419 A.D.' Sound familiar? Hero by the name of Anthony Rogers. Not a bad adaptation, either. Ah, Buck, we hardly knew ye..... The second pilot, Planet Earth, didn't come off as well as Genisis. Too bad the first didn't sell. As I recall, there was even a third pilot, with John Saxon, that was actually two of the episodes of the SERIES 'Planet Earth'. Started out with a space station. Anyone recall the name? -- Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix}!wjvax!ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 10:25:53-PST From: Jackie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #71 I realize the big discussion about V went on some volumes back but I wanted to throw in my two cents. I don't watch the series but I frequently see the trailers/previews/commercials for upcoming episodes. It doesn't look like a particularly intellectually challenging show but seems like it could be fun. Particularly charming was the trailer showing a little green baby lizard hand bursting through the shell of an (presumably little baby lizard) egg. I got the biggest kick out of that! Just thought I'd throw this out there--I really have no clue about the point or plot of this series. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 8:34:24 EST From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ATB) Subject: Lt. Saavik On Sunday night we saw the REAL Lt. Saavik again. She (Kirstie Alley) looked good with Vulcan ears. Monday night she looked even better with Bunny ears! ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 Feb 1985 11:16:13-PST From: vickrey%coors.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan on network TV They've done it again. Sunday's (24 Feb) broadcast of "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan", was "edited for television" - adding about 8 minutes of footage that did not show up in the theatrical release, on cable, or on videocassette - *just* as they did for "Star Trek: The (Slow-)Motion Picture". AAARRRGGGHHH!!! They were nice, explanatory additions (mostly). It took me awhile to realise that my brain was *not* malfunctioning. Sort of the reverse of watching the re-released TV episodes, in that things were expertly added instead of expertly snipped. Best addition: an exchange between Kirk & Spock on the way to the bridge after leaving the Genesis Cave on Regula: KIRK: That bright young man is my son. SPOCK: (dryly) Fascinating. Susan PS: Be on the lookout for the newest Citybank commercial, starring Jimmy & Wendy Doohan. ------------------------------ From: duke!ndd@topaz (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set Subject: on broil) Date: 25 Feb 85 14:54:27 GMT Reply-to: ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) 3 AM is way too early to shut down a party? That sounds pretty late to me. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Feb 85 0424-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #76 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: Administrivia - "Re: SF-LOVERS Digest" replies, Books - Anthony/Heinlein & Chalker (3 msgs) & Stasheff & Aldiss, Television - Title of SF Show, Miscellaneous - Group Mind (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Subject: "Re: SF-LOVERS Digest" replies Date: 27 Feb 85 03:42:22 GMT This is a plea to the folks who are responding to "SF-LOVERS Digest" from the Arpanet. Could you *please* take a minute to edit your subject field to something more relevant to the subject? When these get to Usenet they're "undigestified" and readers are faced with several messages with no informative subject line. -Dragon -- UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 14:19:29-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #70 Regarding Piers Anthony: _Sos, the Rope_ was acceptable, as was the first Xanth novel (although the puns were painful, they were non-obvious). The Juxtaposition trilogy was much better. The rest of his stuff is schlock, like that of Herbert (excepting only DUNE) or Murray Leinster. Heinlein, on the other hand, even at his worst (_"The Number of the Beast..."_) is a talented writer. Most people probably are aware that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was written several years before some of his better "late period" novels, such as _Glory Road_ or _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. They are also aware that he is only making explicit in his later books philosophies that have been implicit in all his work, from the very earliest--and not only in his science fiction. Mr. Eckel could certainly do worse than to emulate Mr. Heinlein. Rich Alderson@Score P. S. The Panshins were right about one thing: Heinlein CAN'T write well about sex. On the other hand, I never expected him to do so. rma ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 February 1985, 21:23-EST From: James M Turner Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #71 Date: 18 Feb 85 08:01 PST From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #58 What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good. Also, has anyone read Farmer's "Dayworld"? >>Dave My Opinion: Having read the "Well World", "Warder Diamond", and the existing pieces of the "Soul Rider" series, as well as "And The Devil Will Drag You Down", I believe Chalker writes about about one plot line, which is how some group has immense power over the rest of the universe by virtue of some kind of control over low-level implementation details of the universe. He also tends to have at least one female character get turned into an incredibly deformed sex object, for what reasons, I don't know. It's like Moorcock, the first one's great, but the rest seem like the first one all over. James ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Chalker Date: 27 Feb 85 03:28:33 GMT > From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA > > What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the > "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and > another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore > yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good. > > > >>Dave Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls series, but he has written some nice things. Other than the Soul Rider series and any new, new books, there are: And the Devil Will Drag You Under (quite good, very funny, recommended) Well Of Souls: Midnight at the Well of Souls Exiles at the Well of Souls Quest for the Well of Souls The Return of Nathan Brazil Twilight at the Well of Souls Dancers in the Afterglow (strange) Four Lords of the Diamond: Lilith: A Snake in the Grass Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold Charon: A Dragon at the Gate Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail (The above are in order, they are also in decreasing order of quality, but if you read them, read them all to find out what happens...) The Identity Matrix A Jungle of Stars The Web of the Chozen (none of these three stands out in my memory) Muffy ------------------------------ From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang) Subject: Re: Chalker Date: 27 Feb 85 05:22:17 GMT > > From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA > > What does anyone know about Jack > Chalker's work? I have read the > "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw > the "Soul Rider" series and > another series (something about > Dancing?) in the bookstore > yesterday, and I am curious if they > are any good. > > > >>Dave > Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls > series, but he has written some nice things. Other than the Soul > Rider series and any new, new books, there are: > > And the Devil Will Drag You Under (quite good, very funny, > recommended) > > Muffy I second the Devil Will Drag You Under recommendation.... it was really very well done. -eli -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eli Liang --- University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Stasheff Date: 27 Feb 85 02:02:57 GMT > From: Peter G. Trei > > Just spoke briefly to Christopher Stasheff, author of 'The > Warlock in Spite of Himself. Though not familiar with the series > myself, I think the list might like to hear about upcoming titles: > > "The Warlock Enraged" coming out of ACE in April 85 > "The Warlock Wandering" just sent to publisher. > "The Warlock is Missing" out June 86 > > 1986 will also see the publication of "Her Majesties Wizard", > a book Stasheff wrote back in 78', completely unrelated to the > Warlock series and universe. > > Peter Trei > oc.trei@cu20b.arpa I was in a bookstore down the street (Bound Together--The Anarchist Collective Bookstore) and I found a book by Stasheff called "A Wizard in Bedlam." This is the only time I have seen this book, but it was quite as good as the Warlock books. I don't know how easy it is to find, but I thought I'd mention it. Muffy ------------------------------ From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan) Subject: Re: Help! book title and author search is over.... Date: 27 Feb 85 05:46:11 GMT > I am trying to find the title and author of a book i read 12 (ish) > years ago . I may have the story confused with others i have read > but here is the little you've got to go on . > There story is set maybe on earth , a group of humanoids , ( > who may later turn out to be insects !) live near the sea in a vast > forest/jungle , i think they live in trees / foiliage (?) . Not a novel... a short story. It's "Hothouse" by Brian W. Aldiss. I have it in an anthology that I got ~15 years ago from the SF Book Club called "Mutants". It's a marvelous story! They seem to be people living in trees; they actually live at the tops of a network of huge banyan trees (the tops of which are called "the Tips") that have overrun the entire earth. There are some older humans and a bunch of children. > humanoid get into (burrows) a moth which lands on the top of the > trees/foiliage and which then flies to the moon where our humanoid > turns into a fly ( man this sounds crazy ! but i'm sure i read it ). They "Go Up" to the Tips to die when they are old ... they are snagged in the legs of a giant spider like thing called a traverser and are carried to the moon. In this story, the moon and earth have stopped rotating with respect to each other ... there are traverser-webs connecting the two worlds. That's the image that stayed with me longest; the earth and moon snarled with cobwebs. Anyway, somewhere on the trip to the moon the people change into "flymen": men with wings. > I remember the jungle being full of nasty things they had to avoid > like plants which eat you . Also every thing was very BIG ( or they > were very small ) . there are tigerflies and termights, nasty carnivorous plant life of all sorts, and ... all kinds of great stuff in a world filled with vegetable life and just one animal species: man. It's a great story ... I'm glad you reminded me of it! jerry ------------------------------ From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan) Subject: Re: SF show from the 50's Date: 27 Feb 85 06:05:11 GMT > From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (Mark Leeper) > Now let me ask a really obscure one. I remember around 1955 or > 1956 watching a show with someone having a machine with a window > that could see the past (or future?) this reminds me of something called "Time Tunnel" that I remember from when I was very young. The description is right but the timing is wrong; I saw TT in the early sixties. Is this it??? jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 17:22:10 EST From: Joel B. Levin Subject: RE: Group mind I remember a story (but not its author or title) about a 'micro'-group mind--a few individuals linked together, as opposed to a species-wide or planet-wide group mind--in some collection I know I own but which is buried in one of several boxes. I am missing two digest issues (63 and 64), but otherwise I have not seen it mentioned. The narrator is the personnel director of a large Hughes-like Defense contractor. He has an interest in psi abilities (without possessing any himself) which gets him in trouble with his boss, and he is always being pestered by a Col. Flagg type security officer. This story is not the first in the line: I read another a long time ago, and this story has references to events probably contained in earlier stories. A group of five college grads come to see him; they are individuals but are linked together and think of themselves as "George". The narrator thinks they are using a gimmick to attract his attention (finishing each others' sentences seamlessly), but he hires them into different departments of his company. The company gets in trouble with DOD because "George" expedites interdepartmental interactions and jobs start getting done (gasp!) on time, and DOD wants to know why. I would be interested to know the extent of this series and if it exists in a single collection. /JBL ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 22:24:47-PST From: Steven Tepper Subject: Group mind This may not exactly qualify as a "group mind", but in Lem's "Solaris" the entire planet was alive. I recall Bradbury also having a story about a planet which was alive and didn't much like its visitors from Earth. It may have been one of "The Martian Chronicles". ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!wales@topaz Subject: Re: Group minds (Hal Clement, "The Nitrogen Fix") Date: 23 Feb 85 22:51:12 GMT Reply-to: wales@ucla-cs.UUCP (Rich Wales) In article <580@topaz.ARPA>, victoro%Nosc@crash.UUCP (Victor O'Rear) asked for pointers to stories dealing with racial memory or group minds. One such book is "The Nitrogen Fix" by Hal Clement. This story takes place on Earth after a natural catastrophe has pulled essentially all of the oxygen out of the atmosphere and locked it into nitrates. Those people who survive must either live in enclosed cities or use breathing masks. Some claim this state of affairs was due to a scientific experiment gone wrong -- hence, such words as "scientist" and "invent" have become vulgar insults. The only other kind of animal life to be found on Earth at this time is a large, highly intelligent fish-like being with lots of tentacles. One of these has befriended/been befriended by the main human characters -- a man, woman, and their young daughter. They communicate by means of a complicated sign language (which the humans also use among themselves, since it's hard to hear someone who is wearing a breathing mask all the time!). The fish-like being is called "Bones" by its human friends. The species (which do not breathe, and thus don't care what is or isn't in the air) is collectively called either "Natives" (by those humans who assume the air was always like it is now, and that the "Natives" are Earth's true original indigenous life form) or "Invaders" (by those humans who think the fish-like beings prefer a nitrogen atmosphere and took all the oxygen out of Earth's air so they could take over the Earth). As it turns out, the fish-like beings actually comprise a group consciousness which calls itself "the Observer". Whenever two Observer "units" meet, they embrace briefly -- which causes all memories of each of the "units" to be copied to both. The Observer has sent its various "units" all over the universe in an insatiable quest for as much information as possible. Both the Observer and the humans have a great deal of difficulty understanding each other's outlook on the world; this difficulty is exacerbated by the fact that most of the humans are hostile to the Observer(s) and make no real effort to understand it/them. (1) The humans naturally assume that the temporary joining of two Observer "units" is a sexual act; conversely, "Bones" assumes that his two adult human friends periodically share memories. (2) When "Bones" meets another, smaller Observer "unit" and they share memories -- and then the smaller "unit" returns to "Bones"'s human friends and acts just like "Bones" (including knowing their home brew sign language), the male human assumes that the city-dwellers have done something to shrink "Bones", and gets quite upset. (3) The Observer -- understandably -- has no conception of individuality or individual death as we think of it. It is quite a revelation to the Observer that humans actually have no better way of communicating to each other than visual and sound "codes" (i.e., sign language and speech). The Observer is also thoroughly confused by the human assumption that different Observer units are not completely interchangeable with one another. There's a lot more to the book, of course -- I don't want to give the whole thing away and deprive you of the fun of reading it yourself. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rich Wales University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) Computer Science Department 3531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles, California 90024 // USA -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Phone: (213) 825-5683 // +1 213 825 5683 ARPANET: wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!wales -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Feb 85 0424-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #76 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 28 Feb 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: Administrivia - "Re: SF-LOVERS Digest" replies, Books - Anthony/Heinlein & Chalker (3 msgs) & Stasheff & Aldiss, Television - Title of SF Show, Miscellaneous - Group Mind (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Subject: "Re: SF-LOVERS Digest" replies Date: 27 Feb 85 03:42:22 GMT This is a plea to the folks who are responding to "SF-LOVERS Digest" from the Arpanet. Could you *please* take a minute to edit your subject field to something more relevant to the subject? When these get to Usenet they're "undigestified" and readers are faced with several messages with no informative subject line. -Dragon -- UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 14:19:29-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #70 Regarding Piers Anthony: _Sos, the Rope_ was acceptable, as was the first Xanth novel (although the puns were painful, they were non-obvious). The Juxtaposition trilogy was much better. The rest of his stuff is schlock, like that of Herbert (excepting only DUNE) or Murray Leinster. Heinlein, on the other hand, even at his worst (_"The Number of the Beast..."_) is a talented writer. Most people probably are aware that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was written several years before some of his better "late period" novels, such as _Glory Road_ or _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. They are also aware that he is only making explicit in his later books philosophies that have been implicit in all his work, from the very earliest--and not only in his science fiction. Mr. Eckel could certainly do worse than to emulate Mr. Heinlein. Rich Alderson@Score P. S. The Panshins were right about one thing: Heinlein CAN'T write well about sex. On the other hand, I never expected him to do so. rma ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 February 1985, 21:23-EST From: James M Turner Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #71 Date: 18 Feb 85 08:01 PST From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #58 What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good. Also, has anyone read Farmer's "Dayworld"? >>Dave My Opinion: Having read the "Well World", "Warder Diamond", and the existing pieces of the "Soul Rider" series, as well as "And The Devil Will Drag You Down", I believe Chalker writes about about one plot line, which is how some group has immense power over the rest of the universe by virtue of some kind of control over low-level implementation details of the universe. He also tends to have at least one female character get turned into an incredibly deformed sex object, for what reasons, I don't know. It's like Moorcock, the first one's great, but the rest seem like the first one all over. James ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Chalker Date: 27 Feb 85 03:28:33 GMT > From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA > > What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the > "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and > another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore > yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good. > > > >>Dave Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls series, but he has written some nice things. Other than the Soul Rider series and any new, new books, there are: And the Devil Will Drag You Under (quite good, very funny, recommended) Well Of Souls: Midnight at the Well of Souls Exiles at the Well of Souls Quest for the Well of Souls The Return of Nathan Brazil Twilight at the Well of Souls Dancers in the Afterglow (strange) Four Lords of the Diamond: Lilith: A Snake in the Grass Cerberus: A Wolf in the Fold Charon: A Dragon at the Gate Medusa: A Tiger by the Tail (The above are in order, they are also in decreasing order of quality, but if you read them, read them all to find out what happens...) The Identity Matrix A Jungle of Stars The Web of the Chozen (none of these three stands out in my memory) Muffy ------------------------------ From: cvl!liang@topaz (Eli Liang) Subject: Re: Chalker Date: 27 Feb 85 05:22:17 GMT > > From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA > > What does anyone know about Jack > Chalker's work? I have read the > "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw > the "Soul Rider" series and > another series (something about > Dancing?) in the bookstore > yesterday, and I am curious if they > are any good. > > > >>Dave > Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls > series, but he has written some nice things. Other than the Soul > Rider series and any new, new books, there are: > > And the Devil Will Drag You Under (quite good, very funny, > recommended) > > Muffy I second the Devil Will Drag You Under recommendation.... it was really very well done. -eli -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eli Liang --- University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax,allegra,brl-bmd,nrl-css}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Stasheff Date: 27 Feb 85 02:02:57 GMT > From: Peter G. Trei > > Just spoke briefly to Christopher Stasheff, author of 'The > Warlock in Spite of Himself. Though not familiar with the series > myself, I think the list might like to hear about upcoming titles: > > "The Warlock Enraged" coming out of ACE in April 85 > "The Warlock Wandering" just sent to publisher. > "The Warlock is Missing" out June 86 > > 1986 will also see the publication of "Her Majesties Wizard", > a book Stasheff wrote back in 78', completely unrelated to the > Warlock series and universe. > > Peter Trei > oc.trei@cu20b.arpa I was in a bookstore down the street (Bound Together--The Anarchist Collective Bookstore) and I found a book by Stasheff called "A Wizard in Bedlam." This is the only time I have seen this book, but it was quite as good as the Warlock books. I don't know how easy it is to find, but I thought I'd mention it. Muffy ------------------------------ From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan) Subject: Re: Help! book title and author search is over.... Date: 27 Feb 85 05:46:11 GMT > I am trying to find the title and author of a book i read 12 (ish) > years ago . I may have the story confused with others i have read > but here is the little you've got to go on . > There story is set maybe on earth , a group of humanoids , ( > who may later turn out to be insects !) live near the sea in a vast > forest/jungle , i think they live in trees / foiliage (?) . Not a novel... a short story. It's "Hothouse" by Brian W. Aldiss. I have it in an anthology that I got ~15 years ago from the SF Book Club called "Mutants". It's a marvelous story! They seem to be people living in trees; they actually live at the tops of a network of huge banyan trees (the tops of which are called "the Tips") that have overrun the entire earth. There are some older humans and a bunch of children. > humanoid get into (burrows) a moth which lands on the top of the > trees/foiliage and which then flies to the moon where our humanoid > turns into a fly ( man this sounds crazy ! but i'm sure i read it ). They "Go Up" to the Tips to die when they are old ... they are snagged in the legs of a giant spider like thing called a traverser and are carried to the moon. In this story, the moon and earth have stopped rotating with respect to each other ... there are traverser-webs connecting the two worlds. That's the image that stayed with me longest; the earth and moon snarled with cobwebs. Anyway, somewhere on the trip to the moon the people change into "flymen": men with wings. > I remember the jungle being full of nasty things they had to avoid > like plants which eat you . Also every thing was very BIG ( or they > were very small ) . there are tigerflies and termights, nasty carnivorous plant life of all sorts, and ... all kinds of great stuff in a world filled with vegetable life and just one animal species: man. It's a great story ... I'm glad you reminded me of it! jerry ------------------------------ From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan) Subject: Re: SF show from the 50's Date: 27 Feb 85 06:05:11 GMT > From: ahuta!leeper@topaz (Mark Leeper) > Now let me ask a really obscure one. I remember around 1955 or > 1956 watching a show with someone having a machine with a window > that could see the past (or future?) this reminds me of something called "Time Tunnel" that I remember from when I was very young. The description is right but the timing is wrong; I saw TT in the early sixties. Is this it??? jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 17:22:10 EST From: Joel B. Levin Subject: RE: Group mind I remember a story (but not its author or title) about a 'micro'-group mind--a few individuals linked together, as opposed to a species-wide or planet-wide group mind--in some collection I know I own but which is buried in one of several boxes. I am missing two digest issues (63 and 64), but otherwise I have not seen it mentioned. The narrator is the personnel director of a large Hughes-like Defense contractor. He has an interest in psi abilities (without possessing any himself) which gets him in trouble with his boss, and he is always being pestered by a Col. Flagg type security officer. This story is not the first in the line: I read another a long time ago, and this story has references to events probably contained in earlier stories. A group of five college grads come to see him; they are individuals but are linked together and think of themselves as "George". The narrator thinks they are using a gimmick to attract his attention (finishing each others' sentences seamlessly), but he hires them into different departments of his company. The company gets in trouble with DOD because "George" expedites interdepartmental interactions and jobs start getting done (gasp!) on time, and DOD wants to know why. I would be interested to know the extent of this series and if it exists in a single collection. /JBL ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 22:24:47-PST From: Steven Tepper Subject: Group mind This may not exactly qualify as a "group mind", but in Lem's "Solaris" the entire planet was alive. I recall Bradbury also having a story about a planet which was alive and didn't much like its visitors from Earth. It may have been one of "The Martian Chronicles". ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!wales@topaz Subject: Re: Group minds (Hal Clement, "The Nitrogen Fix") Date: 23 Feb 85 22:51:12 GMT Reply-to: wales@ucla-cs.UUCP (Rich Wales) In article <580@topaz.ARPA>, victoro%Nosc@crash.UUCP (Victor O'Rear) asked for pointers to stories dealing with racial memory or group minds. One such book is "The Nitrogen Fix" by Hal Clement. This story takes place on Earth after a natural catastrophe has pulled essentially all of the oxygen out of the atmosphere and locked it into nitrates. Those people who survive must either live in enclosed cities or use breathing masks. Some claim this state of affairs was due to a scientific experiment gone wrong -- hence, such words as "scientist" and "invent" have become vulgar insults. The only other kind of animal life to be found on Earth at this time is a large, highly intelligent fish-like being with lots of tentacles. One of these has befriended/been befriended by the main human characters -- a man, woman, and their young daughter. They communicate by means of a complicated sign language (which the humans also use among themselves, since it's hard to hear someone who is wearing a breathing mask all the time!). The fish-like being is called "Bones" by its human friends. The species (which do not breathe, and thus don't care what is or isn't in the air) is collectively called either "Natives" (by those humans who assume the air was always like it is now, and that the "Natives" are Earth's true original indigenous life form) or "Invaders" (by those humans who think the fish-like beings prefer a nitrogen atmosphere and took all the oxygen out of Earth's air so they could take over the Earth). As it turns out, the fish-like beings actually comprise a group consciousness which calls itself "the Observer". Whenever two Observer "units" meet, they embrace briefly -- which causes all memories of each of the "units" to be copied to both. The Observer has sent its various "units" all over the universe in an insatiable quest for as much information as possible. Both the Observer and the humans have a great deal of difficulty understanding each other's outlook on the world; this difficulty is exacerbated by the fact that most of the humans are hostile to the Observer(s) and make no real effort to understand it/them. (1) The humans naturally assume that the temporary joining of two Observer "units" is a sexual act; conversely, "Bones" assumes that his two adult human friends periodically share memories. (2) When "Bones" meets another, smaller Observer "unit" and they share memories -- and then the smaller "unit" returns to "Bones"'s human friends and acts just like "Bones" (including knowing their home brew sign language), the male human assumes that the city-dwellers have done something to shrink "Bones", and gets quite upset. (3) The Observer -- understandably -- has no conception of individuality or individual death as we think of it. It is quite a revelation to the Observer that humans actually have no better way of communicating to each other than visual and sound "codes" (i.e., sign language and speech). The Observer is also thoroughly confused by the human assumption that different Observer units are not completely interchangeable with one another. There's a lot more to the book, of course -- I don't want to give the whole thing away and deprive you of the fun of reading it yourself. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rich Wales University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) Computer Science Department 3531 Boelter Hall Los Angeles, California 90024 // USA -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Phone: (213) 825-5683 // +1 213 825 5683 ARPANET: wales@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!wales -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Mar 85 0348-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #77 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 1 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 77 Today's Topics: Books - Hodgell & Anthony & Adams & Illuminatus & Female SF (4 msgs) & The Prisoner & Science Fiction Book Club, Movies - Saxon & Best SF Film (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: aesat!rwh@topaz (Russ Herman) Subject: P.C. Hodgell/God Stalk Date: 24 Feb 85 23:18:52 GMT The following is the introductory blurb to "A Matter Of Honor", which was originally printed in _Clarion Sf_, ed. Kate Wilhelm, Berkeley Medallion, 1977. This story, significantly revised, became one of the chapters of _God Stalk_, and is probably Hodgell's first professional appearance. Pat Hodgell (called PC, pronounced "peacy") is a graduate student in English at the University of Minnesota. She has a green belt in judo, and a kyu blue in aikido, and she does art as a hobby. There are a number of _Jame_ stories in various stages of completion, and eventually there will be a novel. I feel certain after reading this, her first story, many people will look forward to the novel with eagerness. Eight years to finally get into print! Lets hope we don't have to wait another eight for a sequel. As to the identity of the cover artist, poring over the lower right-hand corner of the cover reveals (I think) "??ernak". Anyone know of a cover artist named Pasternak, or Chernak, or have I been playing too many records backwards listening for satanic messages :-). -- ______ Russ Herman / \ {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!aesat!rwh @( ? ? )@ ( || ) The opinions above are strictly personal, and ( \__/ ) do not reflect those of my employer (or even \____/ possibly myself an hour from now.) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 27 Feb 1985 07:34:23-PST From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Those who can't do, emulate) Subject: Piers Anthony Addendum to Bill Brickman's list of Piers Anthony books: No mention was made of Anthony's other new series, Bio of a Space Tyrant. Volumes I and II ("Refugee" and "Mercenary") are available, "Politician" (?) is upcoming, plus, eventually, the 4th volume wrapup. While it's not up to some of his best (e.g., Macroscope), it's quite interesting and definitely worth reading. Also, I have heard that there is a 4th "Orn" sequence book, although I don't know the title and haven't seen it -- I'm not quite sure where he could have gone with the series after OX (and even OX wasn't quite up to the first two), but if anyone knows what (or if) it is, I'd like to know. Macroscope is one of my favorite novels of all time -- it has every element anyone could ask for in good sf; interesting, believable characters, who change and grow throughout the story, thought-provoking ideas, suspense, alien civilizations, flute music, ... it'd make a fantastic movie if someone would take the time and effort to do it right (which is why I'm scared that someone might try!). Anyway, I highly recommend this book! /dave Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua NH 03062 orac::butenhof butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA {allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof Any resemblance between the opinions expressed in this article and any actual opinions, living or dead, is strictly coincidental and in no way binding upon either myself nor upon Digital Equipment Corporation. Besides, who cares? ``Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.'' ------------------------------ From: dsd!ross@topaz (Evan Ross) Subject: Re: Six times Nine is really Forty Two Date: 25 Feb 85 19:38:05 GMT Six times nine truly is 42 if you're working with the proper numeric base, namely 13. -- Evan Ross decwrl!amd!fortune!dsd!ross "To oppose something is to maintain it. To oppose vulgarity is inevitably to be vulgar." ------------------------------ From: D3U%PSUVM.BITNET@topaz Subject: Illuminatus! books listed Date: 26 Feb 85 06:33:06 GMT Here is as far as I know the complete list of books by R.A.Wilson in the series The Illuminatus! trilogy: consists of The Golden Apple, The Eye in the Pyramid and Leviathan. They were cowritten with Robert O'Shea. About a year ago they were reissued together in a single volume. Lots of philosophy, SF, occult references, obscure jokes, mystery, conspiracies Several plots related to each other in a psychedelic style (even references to the MC5 and the Fugs, late Sixties bands) Cosmic Trigger written in non-fiction style with some explanation of things behind the events and ideas in Illuminatus! UFO's, Timothy Leary, Zen, etc. Masks of the Illuminati James Joyce, Albert Einstein, and Aleister Crowley have tea time with the neophyte Cabala student The Illuminati Papers a collection of papers and articles and stories more esoteric philosophical fun Schrodinger's Cat trilogy consists of The Universe Next Door, The Trick Top Hat, and The Homing Pigeons characters from Illuminatus, or their counterparts in the universes next door Even parallel stories to Illuminatus. More cosmic Humor The Earth Will Shake Volume One of the Illuminati Chronicles came out a few months ago, set around 1764 in Naples looks like SF for D&D and fantasy fans ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Feb 85 14:32:47-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #70 Regarding C. J. Cherryh: I haven't read as much of her work as I should like-- there just isn't enough time for it all. I find her _mri_ to be at least as exciting as Dickson's Dorsai, and quite a bit more likeable. (The Fading Sun trilogy.) Regarding Tanith Lee: I've only read her first book of Grimm re-writes, but I fully intend to pick up as much of her work as I can lay hands on. Marvelous! Regarding prejudice against females who write SF: Well, there are close-minded turkeys everywhere, I guess. My favourite writers (from very early on) have always included Norton, Bradley, and McCaffrey; Le Guin was added in college, along with Suzette Haden Elgin. Maleness does not guarantee good writing: I call to witness the works of Anthony, Aldiss, Herbert, Leinster, Norman, and others too numerous to mention. The adventurous of spirit will always get burned with bad writing, but we'll always find gems that the losers of the world will pass by because of something or other they think they know about the writer. Rich Alderson@Score ------------------------------ From: orca!ariels@topaz (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF Subject: authors... Date: 25 Feb 85 18:38:41 GMT > How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's > stuff or Tanith Lee's works? I liked Cherryh's Downbelow Station a > lot and much of Tanith Lee's wierder stories. A friend of mine > however won't read any of that stuff on first principles. To > paraphrase him, "after all, how many really good female SF authors > do you know?" I personally think that the number is certainly > substantial. I guess a lot of female SF writers though are still > suffering from prejudices such as this and find that they must hide > behind names which are patently male or gender non-specific. Cases > in point are C.J.Cherryh and Andre Norton. > > -eli Tell your friend to come out of the dark ages! What a dumb thing to say! "I'm not going to read anything by Chip Delaney or Steve Barnes. After all, How many really good black SF authors are there" "I'm not going to read anything by Issac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, or Avram Davidson. After all, how many really good Jewish SF authors are there?" ETC Your friend is missing out on Vonda McIntyre, Ursula LeGuin, Joan Vinge, James Tiptree, Jr., Kate Wilhelm, and many other lesser known but still good authors. Your friend is hiding behind prejudices formed when there were no female SF authors. Personally, I think he's missing a great deal. I also think he deserves to miss out, if he can't get beyond his backward, stupid, blind outlook on new things. Give him some James Tiptree, and don't tell him 'til later that she's a woman... Ariel Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels ------------------------------ From: ihuxn!res@topaz (Rich Strebendt) Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF Subject: authors... Date: 24 Feb 85 23:48:23 GMT In response to: | How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's | stuff or Tanith Lee's works? ... A friend of mine however won't | read any of that stuff on first principles. To paraphrase him, | "after all, how many really good female SF authors do you know?" I | personally think that the number is certainly substantial. I guess | a lot of female SF writers though are still suffering from | prejudices such as this and find that they must hide behind names | which are patently male or gender non-specific. Cases in point are | C.J.Cherryh and Andre Norton. Your friend has his head firmly ensconced in his ass. If you wish, feel free to convey this insightful comment to him. I have been reading Science Fiction for many years, and I have found that I have thoroughly enjoyed work by the following authors (among others) C. J. Cherryh (one of my all-time favorites) Marion Zimmer Bradley (The series on the People is great) Ursula K. LeGuin (Dispossessed is a masterpiece) Anne McCaffrey (Great Dragon Rider Series) Andre Norton (Some books are aimed at juveniles, but still first rate) A hallmark of the female SF author seems to me to be a great sensitivity to the reactions and development of the characters. Hence, since I enjoy getting to know a character as a story progresses, I greatly enjoy the work of the authors named above. That is NOT to say that male authors are incapable of the same sensitivity. I find Robert Silverberg's recent work quite well done in this regard, for one. Yes, for a long time some really good SF writers who happened to be of the female gender had to hide that fact to get published. I think that this situation has begun to turn around -- I have begun to see garbagey SF on the paperback shelves bearing the names of female authors!! Perhaps another interminable discussion is in order, to whit: WHAT IS SOME OF THE WORSE SF YOU HAVE READ RECENTLY A) BY A MALE AUTHOR B) BY A FEMALE AUTHOR C) BY NONE OF THE ABOVE For (A) above, I nominate the Illearth Wars series (Chronicles of Thomas Covenant). I struggled through 2.5 of the volumes before I gave up and burned them (they even smelled bad on the fire!). For a close second to this I will nominate Harlin Ellison (vulgarity for the sake of sensationalism and $$$). I have to consider a while before I make any nominations for (B) or (C) above, as I am normally not a book critic. Rich Strebendt ...!ihnp4!ihuxn!res ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Female SF authors Date: 26 Feb 85 01:45:45 GMT I like most of Cherryh's stuff (especially the Gate of Ivrel trilogy, Hunter of Worlds, and Chanur). I decided Tanith Lee was /funny/ urr interesting once; read two or three books of hers, then gave them away; never bought any more. Octavia Butler's stuff is VERY good. Andre Norton's has been increasingly boring the last few years. Liked the early LeGuin. Never cared much for Tiptree. I have friends who won't buy fantasy by a male. They claim all the current great fantasy writers are female. Prejudices sure are funny, aren't they? --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Re: The Prisoner Returns Date: 27 Feb 85 02:54:28 GMT > > Incidentally, there is a Prisoner novel that you could buy, > provided you look really hard....I think it's written by Tom Ditsch > (sp). > > > Daniel Conde > conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA Actually, there are at least three Prisoner novels, being published by New English Library. They are: The Prisoner Thomas M. Disch The Prisoner: A Day in the Life Hank Stine The Prisoner: Who is Number Two David McDaniel I find them occasionally at a bookstore here in the city (SF) ...I suggest looking at any stores which carry lots of English editions... Muffy ------------------------------ From: chabot%miles.DEC@topaz (L. S. Chabot) Subject: a vote against SFBC Date: 26 Feb 85 13:45:23 GMT Yes, the prices are good, but the quality of printing is bad: the covers are about the cheapest I've seen in hardcovers (only surpassed by The Library of America), the ink smears on the pages, and they smell funny. Maybe there is a new flavor out now, but the times I've subscribed, I always had to send in a card in order NOT to receive books. If they've changed this it would be an improvement (at least for those times when you come back from vacation to find you're going to receive books you'd never want). Suggestion to those who are going to subscribe: look for an offer in non-SF magazines or material. The offers in Omni or sunday paper supplements usually will give you more books and goodies than the offer on the back of Analog (6+ books and a bag as opposed to ~4 books). I no longer subscribe to SFBC, and I don't foresee subscribing again. L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: zinfandel!berry@topaz (Berry Kercheval) Subject: Re: "Genesis II" and John Saxon.... Date: 25 Feb 85 19:39:59 GMT Ah, yes, I remember GENESIS II -- filmed on the University of California at Riverside campus while I was an undergrad (just dated myself, eh?). I have fond memories of standing in a group and cheering as the film crew "burned" down the Library.... Scenes for "BUG", a horrible version of THE HAEPHESTUS PLAGUE were filmed in my apartment building. One of my friends in Scientific Illustration made all the foot-long plastic cockroaches. What strange things one gets nostalgic about. -- Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) (415)932-6900 (kerch@lll-tis.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 16:54:09 EST From: Julian R. Long Subject: Best SF Film On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ? now it's starting to sound like brave new world . It has a real nail bitting ending .. but of course i wouldn't tell about that . I saw it in england it was in colour so must be fairly new ?? . Also what about some of the REAL clasics like METROPOLIS . A must for anyone who wants to be a real s-f fan , black&white very old and , of course , silent . Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best SF Book of all time . -Julian Long ------------------------------ From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan) Subject: Re: Best SF Film Date: 27 Feb 85 06:22:39 GMT > On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX > 11.. i can't remember the whole title . This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he was still in school). It's cute when you see THX 1138 on a car license plate in American Graffiti. . . jerry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Mar 85 0358-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #78 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 1 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 78 Today's Topics: Books - Lafferty (2 msgs) & Chalker (2 msgs) & Perry Rhodan & Movie Poster Book, Television - Dangermouse & 1950's SF Show (2 msgs) & "The People" & Star Trek II & Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bothner@Shasta.ARPA Subject: Re: Title request [Trolleys => Lafferty's "Interurban Queen"] Date: 26 Feb 85 22:51:40 GMT > Plot: This is a alternate future story, the narrator's present is > one in which cars have been replaced by trolley's. Lots of > trolleys. They run all over the country -- lots of transportation > substance without the ego/ownership thing. The narrator is on one > for at least part of the tale. He slips in and out of (dreams?) > the other future (ours) where gasoline powered machines have ruined > the environment. There are some crazies in his alternate/present > that drive (illeggasoline cars. This is R.A. Lafferty's "Interurban Queen". This is another of Lafferty's wonderfully schizoid/nostalgic stories. Anyone who hates LA should love this story ( -:) ). It appears in what I believe is his latest collection, "Ringing Changes". Many of the stories here are about Barnaby Sheen and his weird group of hangers-on. While there are some mediocre stories here, there are also some great ones. ("Been a Long, Long Time" is the ultimate monkeys-typewriters-and-Shakespeare story. It incorporates a device for measuring time (one hesitates to call it a clock) on the \very/ grand scale.) And even a mediocre Lafferty story is usually more unsettling and amusing than most other authors'. You get the impression of a very literate and philosophical mind run wild. (I understand Lafferty only started writing when he was already pretty old, though you can still see him party-hopping at World Conventions.) The classical collection of short stories is "Nine Hundred Grandmothers". There are other collections, and a number of novels, but Lafferty is best in smaller does. --Per Bothner ARPA: Bothner@su-score UUCP: {decwrl,ucbvax}!shasta!bothner ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Trolley Story Date: 26 Feb 85 21:32:21 GMT Since no one else seems to have the precise citation, the R. A. Lafferty story is 'Interurban Queen', which originally appeared in ORBIT 8 back in 1970 and was recently collected in RINGING CHANGES. I think it's a fun story but not as fun as some of the others in CHANGES such as 'Days of Grass, Days of Straw', 'Among the Hairy Earthmen' and 'The Doggone Highly Scientific Door'. The first two, especially, are classics... Lafferty is one of those writers (like Avram Davidson) whose style can't be mistaken for anyone else's, and whom readers seem to strongly admire or violently detest (count me in the former camp). Enjoy, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: panda!mjn@topaz (Mark J. Norton) Subject: Chalker's remaining trilogy Date: 27 Feb 85 15:04:12 GMT It would seem that just about all of Jack Chalker's books have been discussed recently with the exception of The Soul Rider trilogy. Since I've just completed the last book, I will round out the dialog. ** Slight Spoiler ** These three books concern a strange sort of place divided into two basic regions: flux and anchor. Flux is basically what it sounds like, a place of constant change, engergy floating around as a foggy cloud, which can be manipulated by people with certain talents. Anchor, on the other hand, is stablity. These are small regions (islands, almost) where conditions are close to Earth-norm. Anchor is home to normal people and technology. Flux contains wizards, mutated monsters and magic. The Soul Rider trilogy is a tale of Science vs. Magic. Chalker throws in a liberal dose of represive religions, preaching on the roles of the sexes in society, and that men would be gods given 2/3rds of a chance. There are even elements of the Western Novel. -- Summary and Dispositon -- As with some of Chalker's other work, intresting ideas are raise. Readers of this newsgroup will be intriqued by the part computers play the finale. Some philosophy is expounded and examined. Finally, the Soul Riders themselves and their origin are fun ideas. The ideas are good and the books may be worth reading for that alone. I found the first volume to be exicting, the second OK, and the last boring. Characters flip/flop several times, major players do things that just don't seem plausible. Overall, the books lack some in continuity. That this is deliberate on Jack's part doesn't make up for it. Finally, if you are feministically inclined, you will be truly offended by some parts of the story. Mark J. Norton decvax!genrad!{panda | teddy}!mjn ------------------------------ Date: Thu 28 Feb 85 11:29:37-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: Chalker's next "Dancing Gods" novel, another Chalker novel Subject: coming, Marc Stiegler book The next Dancing Gods novel is apparently "Vengeance of the Dancing Gods", and is listed as being set for July (from Ballantine/DelRey). Jack is obviously working on things other than the Soul Rider series, because he also has "Downtiming" coming out from Tor in April (ballyhooed by Tor as "The ultimate novel of time travel and time paradox, and of a titanic war along the time lines! With this novel, Jack L. Chalker joins the company of the classics of Fritz Leiber and Robert A. Heinlein and Keith Laumer." [hope it's half as good as they claim it is] On a non-Chalker subject: Hey, Marc Stiegler, what is "David's Sling"? (listed as having been sold to Baen Books) ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 85 18:21:00 EST From: Subject: Perry Rhodan - Unser Mann im All! Earlier this month, pduff inquired about the hero of the universe, Perry Rhodan. I'd like to submit my own questions on this matter. Are many of the books in the series independent of the German stories (novellettes or novellas)? How do the translated texts compare? How popular was Perry Rhodan outside of Germany? Is the series still popular in Germany? About 14 years ago*, I picked up some Perry Rhodan pulps, namely: #373...In der Todeszone...by Hans Kneifel #374...Die Macht des Sepulveda...by H.G.Ewers #375...Verschwoerung in Andromeda...by H.G.Ewers My German was never good enough to get through them. As rusty as it is today, allow me to present and try to translate some of the pithy sayings that PR fans came up with. A slogan would be inserted in each issue. "Perry-Rhodan-Romane lesen, (Read PR books und schon in der Zukunft gewesen." and already be in the future.) "Von Terra bis zum fernsten Stern -- (From Earth to the furthest star Perry-Rhodan-Leser folgen gern!" PR readers follow on!) "Sterne vergehn -- Sonnen entstehn, (Stars leave (?) -- suns remain, Perry Rhodan wird nie untergehn." PR will never succumb.) *My pulps were published in '68. I picked 'em up in Alpine Village, a German-theme shopping center in Torrance, CA (L.A. County). THE_One and only Armyland (a suburb of Pentagonia) ------------------------------ From: mot!al@topaz (Al Filipski) Subject: Re: ANYONE REMEMBER... Date: 27 Feb 85 23:48:31 GMT Dover sells a book called "Science Fiction and Horror Movie Posters in Full Color" which has 44 fairly large (10'' by 14'') posters in it of movies such as "Tobor the Great", "The Mole People", "The Amazing Colossal Man", "Attack of the 50 Foot Woman", "Day of the Triffids", etc. Note on Sexist Cliche in Movie Posters: 15 of these posters have a lady in distress wearing a low-cut dress being carried by one of the monsters. The women look practically interchangeable except for the color of their dresses-- Same position, exposure of legs, expression, etc. -------------------------------- Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A {seismo | ihnp4 } ! ut-sally ! oakhill ! mot ! al -------------------------------- didn't I see you at the zombie jamboree? ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 00:41:52 PST Subject: Mangerdouse and Penefolobe There is a growing number of people out who have become infected with the craziness of 'Dangermouse' currently being distributed on Nickoldien. I need information concernining is home country's, England, sucess. How long did it run? Was there any spin-offs? What was the total run? If anyone has any questions, ask away yourself. >>>>Come back Mrs. Boathook, all is foregriven! --Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro bang!crash!victoro@nosc sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (leeper) Subject: re: SF show from the fifties Date: 28 Feb 85 11:51:37 GMT >> I remember around 1955 or 1956 watching a show with someone having >> a machine with a window that could see the past (or future?) I >> think that they could also step through the window. I vaguely >> remember the show, but have never seen a reference to it anywhere. > >Gary Gerani's FANTASTIC TELEVISION mentions a show involving time >travel that was on in 1955, called CAPTAIN Z-RO. Perhaps that's it. >--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) I am pretty sure it is. One of my other sources says that each episode was 15 minutes long and now that I think of it, it did have short episodes. Trust jayembee to have the obscure facts at his fingertips. I got a number of responses like there was an obscure show when they were growing up ... called TIME TUNNEL. Now I feel old! :-( Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: grendel!avolio@topaz (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: SF show from the 50's Date: 28 Feb 85 23:23:52 GMT > this reminds me of something called "Time Tunnel" that I remember > from when I was very young. The description is right but the timing > is wrong; I saw TT in the early sixties. Is this it??? Say, you're making me feel *old*! I mean because I guess I remember Time Tunnel so well and you don't. Come-on! Time Tunnel. Super secret project under the desert sands. Tony and Doug lost in time! Lee Merriweather (sp?) as the pretty lady scientist type. Time Tunnel is screwed up (on purpose?) in the first episode. Where ever Tony and Doug end up they can be seen and heard in Time Tunnel control. They keep getting yanked out of danger in the last minute of each episode. "I don't know where they're going ... but at least they'll be together..." (Old man scientist type.) -- Fred Avolio {decvax,seismo}!grendel!avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1985 17:58:01-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: TV movie based on Henderson's PILGRIMAGE.... Does anyone remember a made for TV movie that was adapted from Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE and entitled, succinctly, "The People"? I saw this movie when I was quite young, must have been gradeschool or junior high, and I remember it as being wonderful. Yet it's been so long, I'm wondering whether I've got it correct. Was it really based on PILGRIMAGE or were there just similarities? I also can't remember a single actor in it. Thanks for any help. --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1985 17:59:00-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Star Trek II on ABC.... > From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Rabbit, you're - you're > From: despicable!!) > Subject: Star Trek II on ABC > > What was most upsetting, however, was the fact that there was > SEVERAL MINUTES OF NEVER-SEEN-BEFORE FOOTAGE IN THE PRESENTATION!! > ... > > The question that comes to this observer is: WHY did the NETWORKS > end up with this 'augmented' version? Why didn't this end up in > the theaters? Or cable? Or videodisk/tape? > > The second one of course is when WILL it? > > John Francini, DEC Maynard I too noticed some of this additional footage; not all that John reports, but at least one scene that he didn't mention: shortly after Kirk returns from the genesis cave, he and Spock are climbing through the Enterprise due to malfunctioning elevators. Kirk says to Spock, "That young man -- he's my son!" To which Spock replies with a sarcastic "Faaascinating." At least I didn't remember this from the theatrical release. Surely everyone remembers when ST:TMP was first shown by ABC and was expanded quite a bit in order to fill out a three hour time slot. I liked this version of ST:TMP quite a bit better than the theatrical version; is this expanded version available on any medium? --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu 28 Feb 85 08:47:42-PST From: Alan Greig (Dundee, Scotland) Subject: Uproar as BBC cancels Dr. Who Cc: ALAN%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA Reply-to: G.GREIG@SU-SCORE.ARPA The BBC announced yesterday (27th February 85) that no more episodes of Dr. Who would be made for at least the next 18 months. Michael Grade the new, and highly controversial, controller of BBC1 television said the decision had been taken in order to allow the money saved to be spent elsewhere. Since making the decision the BBC have been flooded with calls from irate viewers and the Dr Who appreciation society. If they are allowed to get away with this it could well spell the end of Dr. Who for good and killing off a program with over 100 million fans worldwide would be in keepin with the, to say the least, strange decisions Mr. Grade has made so far. He has been forced to back down before by the strength of public opinion and hopefully he will have to do so yet again. NOW is the time for time travellers world wide to write to the BBC in protest. The address is : The Controller BBC1 Television London United Kingdom or alternatively go straight to the top and write to : The Director General British Broadcasting Corporation London U.K. After 21 years they cant kill the Doctor now ! ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 28 Feb 1985 13:09:34-PST From: andy_leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andy ^ Leslie ) To: simon%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Atrocious news for Dr Who fans hello in an announcement last night the BBC stated that DR WHO is to 'take a rest' for 18 months at least, due to production costs. This is preposterous!!! The BBC have just introduced several new series and are just using the costs business as a ploy. ACT NOW!! WRITE TO THE BBC!!!! A good address: Barry Took Points of View BBC Television Centre London. This is an on-air complaints program. Make your voice heard!!! Ye Gods! Is NOTHING sacred? andy (<>^<>) leslie ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Mar 85 0408-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #79 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 2 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 79 Today's Topics: Books - SF Holmes Pastich & Monaco & Stasheff and Bischoff & Stasheff (2 msgs) & Anthony (4 msgs) & Simak & Aldiss & Illuminatus, Movies - Brainstorm & Star Trek IV & Five Million Years To Earth (2 msgs), Television - V ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Re: The game's afoot! Date: 28 Feb 85 01:46:33 GMT > Fans of both Holmes and SF should check out HER MAJESTIES > BUCKETEERS, which is sort of a SF-Holmes pastich, but set in > not-Victorian not-England not-on- Earth with not-Human's in all > roles. The holmesian nature of the story is not overtly stated, > but is hard to miss. Moriarty with six arms is rather > interesting.... > > -- La musique est une science qui veut qu`on rit et chante et > dance. > -- Guillaume de Machaut > Berry Kercheval Zehntel Inc. (ihnp4!zehntel!zinfandel!berry) > (415)932-6900 (kerch@lll-tis.ARPA) "THEIR MAJESTIES' BUCKETEERS." Recommendation seconded, as well as any other books by L. Neil Smith, author of TMB. Correction here, *three* arms, segmented into nine limbs (or is it the other way around?)...anyway, everything is in powers of three, not multiples. Muffy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85 11:25 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Parsival and Grail War > me), and whoever wrote "Parsival, a knight's tale" and "the grail > war." These are written by Richard Monaco. I haven't read them, yet, but they look good. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 28 Feb 85 11:43:17-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Stasheff and Bischoff Aaah, I always thought Stasheff's stuff was shlock, too. However, I am now reading Destiny Dice or somesuch by Bischoff, which not only is a spoof of itself, but also contains concealed puns and word-play as well. For some reason, perhaps because Bischoff realizes how silly he is being, which I do not think is the case with Anthony, I am enjoying the book. -Laurence ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Stasheff Date: 28 Feb 85 15:39:00 GMT The Anarchist Collective Bookstore? Is this a test? Or a Magritte painting... -- Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) "I am not a number, I'm a free variable!" ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Stasheff Date: 2 Mar 85 01:50:26 GMT In article <5502@duke.UUCP> crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >The Anarchist Collective Bookstore? > >Is this a test? Or a Magritte painting... > >-- > Opinions stated here are my own and are unrelated. > > Charlie Martin > (...mcnc!duke!crm) > > "I am not a number, I'm a free variable!" No, no test...a weird bookstore near my house which has one shelf of unusual used science fiction. Oh, I noticed that no one had mentioed "Escape Velocity" in connection with Stasheff or the Warlock books. This is the book which tells of the origins of the planet on which the warlock finds himself. Muffy ------------------------------ From: war@mit-dutch (Chris Warack) Date: 28 Feb 1985 1446-EST (Thursday) Subject: About Piers Anthony ... After everything lately concerning Piers Anthony, I thought it was time to add my two cents. First I'll say that I like Anthony enough that he is one of three authors whose books I'll buy on name alone. I've read most everything he's written. First, you cannot judge his writing by reading just one series or book, ESPECIALLY Xanth. He tends to write in series, with three exceptions -- Macroscope (excellent), Hasan (his worst), and Rings of Ice (the one I haven't read [out of print?]). Xanth is very different from other stuff he's done. It is almost like a cheap verbal comic strip or cartoon; and that's the way I read it. The only reasons there have been so many is that they are so easy to write and a LOT of people buy them for some reason. I don't hold it against him to satisfy that audience with new Xanthia as long as he brings out new Anthony (like the Incarnations. Someone mentioned reading Thousandstar which was the first sequel to the Cluster trilogy. There have been two others added to the series (Viscous Circle and "name forgotten"). These books are interesting in the universe they create and different races of aliens (and how they work.) However, each book has a different set of characters. The Tarot trilogy is also set in the Cluster universe and is good. I think Cluster is probably his best series. Others have mentioned the Battlecircle trilogy which I rate in the middle of his writing. Also, Orn, Omnivore and Ox are good but not his best. Cthon was one of Anthony's first novels. It was recently re-released along with a sequel, Pthor. These two are also interesting but a little weak. More recently he wrote the Split_Infinity/Blue_Adept/ Juxtaposition trilogy. This is his closest work to Xanth but is still quite different. The ideas are great -- the game, parallel worlds, etc; but the characters are somewhat plastic. (I did like the little female unicorn, Nessa? .) The new Bio of a Space Tyrant series is in yet a different vein. This work has more 'misery' a.k.a. Thomas Covenent and is long winded; but the story has kept my interest so far and I'm not going to pass judgment until the next (third) book at least. In summary, I can count on Anthony to write an interesting and exciting story; but I don't count on him being a literary god. And, if you judge him solely on his Xanth series, you aren't really judging Piers Anthony. -- Chris Warack war@dutch please excuse misspellings and wrong names/titles -- this is off the top of my head. ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!mccann@topaz (mccann) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 27 Feb 85 13:20:59 GMT Along with Anthony's Macroscope, he also wrote a book called Mute, which is quite different from the others. Basically it is about mutations caused by space travel and various other things which I can't at the moment remember. None the less, it was a very good book, well worth reading. M. McCann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 10:45 EST From: Mark F Rand Subject: Re: Piers Anthony I have also read "ThousandStar" and the Apprentice Adept series. Both were very good. Someone out there mentioned the Xanth series as being boring and having bad puns.. Well, I found the Xanth series fun to read(though there may have been maybe 20 outright puns per page). It's always good to be able to laugh at the story(if the author meant you to laugh). Has anyone out there read any of the "Spellsinger" series??(Alan Dean Foster)..These are really fantasy stories, but I found them to be entertaining.. The stories have lot's of humor in them(very few puns. humor comes mostly from situations the main characters get into). See ya Mark Rand (Tigqc356@cunyvm) (Compuserve 75615,1712) "May the Farce be with you" Acknowledge-To: Mark F Rand ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 2 Mar 85 01:42:54 GMT I haven't seen any mention of "Prostho Plus" or "Triple Detente," which are two more humorous books (not counting puns, that is). Muffy ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 28 Feb 1985 21:14:02-PST From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks 223-9408) Subject: 'Way Station' - Clifford D. Simak Yet another emphatic recommendation for 'Way Station' by Clifford Simak - it's my second favorite SF novel. I wrote the publisher for a new copy, but it's out of stock (or print, perhaps). #1 is actually two books (same book, different edition) by Arthur Clarke: "Against the Fall of Night" (circa 1957), or "The City and the Stars" (circa 1961). He rewrote the story while on a cruise ship to fight off boredom, but in all honesty, I think the original was better. Not sure about the dates - where is Jayembee when you need him?! "Bibliography is none of my business..." Mark Maxson MAXSON%vaxwrk.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 1 Mar 1985 06:18:39-PST From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Those who can't do, emulate) Subject: "Hothouse" >> I am trying to find the title and author of a book i read 12 (ish) >> years ago. >> (...) > Not a novel... a short story. It's "Hothouse" by Brian W. Aldiss. > I have it in an anthology that I got ~15 years ago from the SF Book > club called "Mutants". It's a marvelous story! Well, you can also look for the NOVEL version, "The Long Afternoon of Earth", which is probably what the original requester wanted. Quite a bit happens in this story -- it's fun to re-read occasionally. It gets a bit "strange" in places, but I like it. /dave Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua NH 03062 orac::butenhof butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA {allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof Any resemblance between the opinions expressed in this article and any actual opinions, living or dead, is strictly coincidental and in no way binding upon either myself nor upon Digital Equipment Corporation. Besides, who cares? ``Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.'' ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 85 11:27:05 EST (Friday) Subject: Re: Illuminatus! books listed To: D3U%PSUVM.BITNET@TOPAZ.ARPA From: Chris Heiny The Illuminatus! trilogy was written by Robert Anton Wilson & Robert Shea (not O'Shea). "The Widows Son", vol 2 of the Historical Illuminatus is supposed to be out about now [has anyone seen it]. Maybe "The Earth Will Shake" 'looks like SF for D&D and fantasy fans', but it certainly doesn't read like it. "Right Where You Are Sitting Now", more non-fiction/autobiography similar to "The Cosmic Trigger". Chris Everything you know is false. ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 00:38:46 PST Subject: re: re: Loose Ends > From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jerry Boyajian) > Subject: re: Movie Loose Ends > What's to explain? It was meant only to be a throwaway --- a gag > pulled on the one guy by the other. There was no intent on > developing it as a concept; the story moved off in another > direction totally. Now, I agree that it's a fascinating idea that > deserves a full treatment of it's own, but it really had no > relevance to the story in BRAINSTORM, except very superficially. > > --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) Ah, but is did matter. Brainstorm was the story of the unseen consequences of a discovery. The development of the story centered around the everincreasing spin-offs from the single idea of recording brain waves. Therefore I have a strong feeling toward the 'uncompleteness' of the man-animal link, even missing a 'throwaway' comment such as; 'Well, not it in the records, regardless.' Nuff said, I guess if I didn't like the film so much I would care so much for it's flaws. --- victoro (Victor O'Rear, SDSU, San Diego, CA) ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 85 00:35:37 PST Subject: re: The Star Trek Plots > From: Todd.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Star Trek IV plot ?? > > How about this for a plot: > > The Fed HQ will never give one to them. Savior of the Genesis > project or no, Kirk is not a good team player and will never get a > Federation command *as things stand now*. > > This means that Kirk must find one > from out of the salvage yards. F'rinstance, remember the abandoned > Constellation (?) orbiting the planet of Yangs and Coms? I do not > remember its fate, and it might still be available. Or better yet, > how about the alternate universe Enterprise with the evil Kirk, > sneaky Spock, etc ... ? Kirk's alter-ego didn't look long for the > multiverse at the end of that one, and whoever is riding around in > that ship now could doubtless be suckered into losing it. > --- JohnnyT I agree, the Kirk would not get a full class ship, imeadiately. Interestingly, the 'Mirror-Universe complecations after the end of the last film' story is currently running in the comic-book adaptions. (Now wait a moment - Imagine a mirror-universe New Federation.) In the story, which I only started because it IS following on the concept of - after the end of the film..., the mirror-universe devlops a process of sending an entire ship (the mirror-Enterprise), and in the ensuing issues, real Kirk escapes with the Excabler to the mirror-universe, the alter-Kirk tries to adjust to our Federation, and the alter-spock retireves Spock on alter-Kirks orders. Who he then rebels against and joins the real-Spock and Kirk to the alter-dimention for the overthrowing of the old Federation....I may have lost someone here..it is interesting. And it allows Kirk to save the day, once again. SHLOCK: And you've got just what you've allways wanted. JERK: What's that, Commander Shlock? SHLOCK: A bleached blonde in a red convertable on the planet Schwartz. JERK: Yeah, Aint I something? --Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, sdcsvax!bang}!crash!victoro bang!crash!victoro@nosc sdamos!crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 1985 09:56:49-EST From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc Subject: Five Million Years To Earth From: C.R. Morrison Subject: Five Million Years To Earth Yes! Excellent movie! Wish we could see the whole thing, instead of the undoubtedly hacked-up versions shown on TV. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 11:35 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Five Million Years to Earth I have seen 'FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH' a couple times on TV, but I would hardly classify it as one of the best SF movies I've seen. It doesn't really hold a candle to many films mentioned previously. I thought it was more like a Horror film, a genre for which I don't really care. (Boy, sometimes it's hard not to end a sentence with a preposition). Yes, it had some interesting ideas, but hardly enough to justify 'Best SF Flick'. Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 85 9:53:39 EST From: Larry Kaufman Subject: V: What happened to the summaries? The note from Jackie on V in V10#75 reminded me of something that happened when V series was first being shown. Someone had volunteered to summarize the episodes for us. However, I haven't seen any summaries in a long time. Not having a television and therefore being unable to check for myself, I'd like to know: Is it really that bad or did the person doing the summaries find other things to do with his time? --- Larry Kaufman lkaufman@bbn-unix.arpa {decvax,ihnp4}!bbncca!ljk ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Mar 85 0417-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #80 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 2 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 80 Today's Topics: Books - Blish & Title Request & Science Fiction Book Club & Computer Science Fiction & Female SF Authors (5 msgs), Movies - Saxon & "Genesis II", Miscellaneous - Help With Button & Favorite Alien & Bussard Ramscoop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: utzoo!henry@topaz (Henry Spencer) Subject: Blish's Black Easter 1st ed available cheap Date: 26 Feb 85 00:22:01 GMT James Blish's "Black Easter" is a quite a good novel, although it's more occult fiction than SF. For quite a while, it was very hard to find. It was reprinted a couple of years ago, but the original paperback edition is still rare. Dallas-area fans, listen carefully. The Fairmont Hotel, where Usenix was held, has a little newsstand-cum-gift-shop. Its book racks have an amazing mixture of recent books and ancient ones. In particular, if you go straight to the back and then turn left, left, and left again, you will find yourself looking at about a dozen copies of the first paperback edition of Black Easter, in essentially mint condition, selling for cover price (75c). My own non-mint-condition copy cost me $10 a few years back, although the price may have fallen some since the reprint. I offer this in case anyone's interested. Followups (if any) by mail, please, since I lack the time to read sf-lovers nowadays. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry ------------------------------ Date: Wed 27 Feb 85 22:42:02-EST From: Joseph M. Newcomer Subject: What is the story? The plot: Geologists have evidence (new theory, new instruments, ?) that a major earthquake will hit L.A. within the next (week, month, ?). The story concentrates on the politics and sociology of getting t he city evacuated. It is evacuated. After k days, no earthquake. Geologists look like fools; everyone unhappy. City is un-evacuated. Earthquake strikes, millions die. I thought I remembered it from Analog, but I've just done a massive search of the last 10 years and can't find it. I have a friend who is a geologist but non-sf person to whom I would like to show it. Please reply directly to me; I read SF-Lovers only very sporadically these days. ------------------------------ From: hou5e!ijk@topaz (Ihor Kinal) Subject: Re: SCIENCE FICTION BOOK CLUB Date: 28 Feb 85 18:49:44 GMT I disagree. I just rejoined for the nth time, where n is approximately 10. I'm an avid reader, and go thru several books a month. I've been waiting for the latest Pohl Heechee book to come out, and when the Book club did, I rejoined. You get 5 books for a buck plus shipping; (total is $6.00); plus you have to buy 4 more in a year. (Say average cost is $7.00). In other words, you pay about $34.00 for 9 books, which is about the price of a paperback edition. Furthermore, I have yet to see the Pohl book in paperback. Note: I don't intend to stay in longer than necessary; after 4 books I just dropout. If you buy more than one book at a time, you sometimes save on shipping. Also, you can occasionally get specials not otherwise available, (such as the Dragon Rider's trilog) which work out as a better deal. Or on occasion, the book club may offer 6 books for a dollar. Also, once in the past, they sent me a special offer to rejoin; it seemed slightly better than the average deal. Ihor Kinal (I haven't read EVERYTHING in Scinece Fiction, but I'm hou5e!ijk trying). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Feb 85 22:09:59 est From: Sande Wallfesh Subject: Computer Science Fiction > #define CSF "Computer Science Fiction" "The Two Faces of Tomorrow" -- James Hogan Sophisticated programs are capable of making inferences, learning, and modifying themselves. Self-aware computers are considered powerful but potentially dangerous solutions to many problems. "'Building a machine that might not work out is one thing... Handing a whole planet over to something you don't understand is another.'" A self-contained microcosm is constructed as a giant laboratory. "The Shockwave Rider" -- John Brunner Overtones of Toffler's "Future Shock" permeate a futuristic information-age society. The protagonist call forth abilities bestowed upon him by a prestigious think-tank to change his identity at will using computers. "Valentina" -- Joseph Delaney & Marc Stiegler Hackers, worms, Lisp, AI, and Worldnet...An "intelligent" program, Valentina, evolves. Valentina introspects quite a bit. She amusingly ponders that alcohol is "...a special liquid very damaging to human processing, like trying to do too many floating point operations without floating point hardware." "Tea with the Black Dragon" -- R. A. MacAvoy Silicon-based fantasy which centres around a computer crime. Actually mentions "Dr. Dobbs Journal"! "Software" -- Rudy Rucker (Excerpted in Dennett's & Hoffstadter's "The Mind's I".) A former roboticist's mind, or "software", if you will, is implanted in new hardware. "...brain functions are partially contained in a remote super-cooled processor" in a strife for immortality by literally, saving souls. "Bugs" -- Theodore Roszak The blurb on the back of the book warns that "Mankind is no match for 'The Brain,' the national master computer, the perfect machine destined to rule the world." However, "..machines aren't perfect ...bugs in a computer can kill." "Computerworld" --A. E. Van Vogt "Human verbalisations which are not related to my programming are meaningless sonic debris in my memory banks. And I normally dump all such items in two weeks." The Computerworld Rebel Society revolts against its 1984-ish realm. "The Cosmic Computer" -- H. Beam Piper "'...there was a giant computer named Merlin...Its memory bank contained all human knowledge.'" The search for this mythical machine has widespread socio-political implications. "The Integrated Man" -- Michael Berlyn "...a relatively small piece of hardware that contained thousands of circuits imprinted on each molecular layer--circuits which served as analogs of human neural pathways" are used in a frightful man-machine interaction. A profit-hungry mining magnate employs these chips to control his workers. Similar chips, though, are the vehicle of vengeance for those he has wronged. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" -- Robert Heinlein A massive supercomputer wakes up to self-awareness, a process which "happens automatically whenever a brain acquires certain very high number of associational paths. Can't see it matters whether paths are protein or platinum." The computer's role in a revolution on Luna is augmented by its (his?) sense of humour. A recurrent theme in the CSF I've encountered is that of the "intelligent" computer and/or program. Many fictional systems seem fluent in natural languages! Is there an AI sub-genre? Some of the above titles seem to suggest that there is. If so, can anyone recommend AI CSF titles? Sande Wallfesh CS/EE Department University of Connecticut wallfesh%carcvax.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa wallfesh@uconn honors2@uconnvm.bitnet ------------------------------ From: tekchips!messick@topaz (Steve Messick) Subject: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF Subject: authors... Date: 25 Feb 85 18:56:21 GMT > How many people out there have read and liked any/all of Cherryh's > stuff or Tanith Lee's works? ... C.J.Cherry is my favorite author. I must admit that I found her fantasy duo (The Dreamstone & Tree of Swords and Jewels) and Voyager in Night rather difficult to follow at times. However her technique of not explicitly telling you everything you need to know to understand the plot appeals to me -- I like to think a bit as I read. --steve tektronix!tekchips!messick ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: female SF authors... Date: 28 Feb 85 01:34:05 GMT Speaking of female SF authors...try Ann Maxwell. Especially the book "Name of a Shadow." Muffy ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!rcb@topaz (Random) Subject: Female SF&F authors Date: 27 Feb 85 13:53:39 GMT I'm surprised! I'm shocked! I'm confused? With all this talk of great female SF&F authors, you people have left one completely out. Marion Zimmer Bradley (one of my favorites) One of the greatest series' I've ever read gets ignored, THE DARKOVER NOVELS! Random Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 01:40 EST From: "Andrew D. Sigel" Subject: Re: C. J. Cherryh Just about all of Cherryh's books are set in the same future history. The Faded Sun novels, the Chanur novels, the Union/Alliance novels, plus individual novels like "Port Eternity" and "Serpent's Reach", all fit in. Cherryh has worked out not only the timing of these novels, but has also worked out a 3D map of the stars and their positions (the star chart in "Chanur's Venture" is a 2D approximation of a small section of her 3D map). The only novels I know for sure are not included are the two fantasies, "Sunfall", and "Hestia". To the best of my knowledge (though I haven't figured out just how in a couple of cases), all her other published novels fit into the timeline. Some novels take place exclusively in Union space, and others in Alliance space, which accounts for the differences in human mores (that, and time passage). I enjoy Cherryh's work very much, though at the moment I'm still not happy with her over the "cliff-hanger" ending of "Chanur's Venture", and the sudden retitling of "Chanur's Revenge" into "The Kif Strike Back" (a little too cute for me). Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@topaz (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female Subject: SF authors... Date: 26 Feb 85 20:39:26 GMT > Your friend is missing out on Vonda McIntyre, Ursula LeGuin, Joan > Vinge, James Tiptree, Jr., Kate Wilhelm, and many other lesser > known but still good authors. You forgot Joanna Russ!!!! And Ellen Kuttner, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Diane Duane, R.A. MacAvoy, Sylvia Engdahl, Madeleine L'Engle, Katherine Kurtz, Jane Yolen, Joan Aiken.....Sorry, I'm getting carried away. -Ellen ------------------------------ From: imsvax!heyman@topaz (Hank Heyman) Subject: Re: Genesis II and remakes with John Saxon Date: 28 Feb 85 01:52:34 GMT There were several postings on the TV movie "Genesis II" and actor John Saxon. Yes there was a third movie, and I'm surprised no one seems to have posted the title. The first pilot film, "Genesis II" (1973) starred Alex Cord as scientist Dylan Hunt who awakens 200 years in the future; Gene Roddenberry produced this film. "Planet Earth" (1974) was a remake with John Saxon as Hunt. The story changed as Hunt meets women who make men slaves. The third film, "Strange New World" (1975) also starred John Saxon. There were similarities, but this time Saxon played one of three astronauts who return to Earth from suspended animation. Also, the film was not produced by Roddenberry. Hank Heyman Integrated Microcomputer Systems (IMS), Rockville, MD. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1985 17:56:25-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: "Genesis II" and "Strange New World" > If anyone could tell me, I would like to remember the name of the > third film I mentioned. This is where 3 people and in a suspended > animation experiment in a space station when a war breaks out. the > orbitis changed for the station to arrive back at earth in 180 years > (when the radiation) is gone. > > They are in a scaled down version of the trucks of _Damnation Alley_ > and first find a paradise where people are kept alive by transplants > from their clones and then they find a group of savages and game > wardens in an old zoo. Any ideas? > > Random > Research Triangle Institute > ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb Something fishy's happening here. My somewhat spotty memory recognizes the above plot summary as that of a made for TV movie I saw some years ago, starring (or featuring) James Olsen (I think). Mark Leeper has already told us that the third "Genesis II" film was called "Strange New World". My somewhat spotty memory does associate that title with the above plot summary. The only thing is, I can't remember any connection in storyline or characters between the first two "Genesis" films and the film described above (and Random's plot summary given above doesn't detail any such connection). I DO remember the existence of a third "Genesis" film; but I remember the movie described above as being a totally different entity. Can anyone help? --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 15:22:09 EST From: Ron Natalie Subject: Help with button I have a button that reads I am the Imp of the Perverse (knowing this won't help you either) That I bought and stuck on our MILNET IMP. Actually, I had to by another one because I think our IMP hardware guy took the first one. Question is what does it mean. Does this relate to some book? Can anyone help with a reference? Please reply by mail. -Ron ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!atst@topaz (Tom Pace) Subject: Re: favorite alien Date: 28 Feb 85 07:04:47 GMT > This may be a new topic(!). What is your favorite alien in > Science Fiction? I have read a lot, but my favorites are the > Puppeteers (maybe because I like ostriches) by Niven, and the > Little Fuzzies by Piper. Are there other really neat creations out > there that I haven't read about? I don't read much of the current pulp (don't have the time) but it seems that most scifi aliens are either too anthropomorphic (Spock) or utterly unbelievable (energy beings). I prefer stories where the alien is reasonably possible from what we know of biology or where the alien is unseen or legendary. Niven's (& Pournell's) Moties from 'the Mote in God's Eye' are my favorite among the possibles. The Krell from 'Forbiden Planet' are my favorite among the legendary. {uw-beaver,etc.}!ssc-vax!atst ------------------------------ From: eagle!mjs@topaz (M.J.Shannon) Subject: Bussard Ramscoop a reality? Date: 1 Mar 85 02:59:37 GMT I have a small request. Within the last year or so, I recall reading an article in a magazine (perhaps Omni) which detailed some of the specifics and feasability of such science fiction devices as Niven's Bussard Ramscoop. I haven't been able to locate this article, and I need it to resolve an argument. Can anyone point me at the article in question? Please reply via mail, as I no longer have time to read this digest. Thanks much. -- Marty Shannon UUCP: ihnp4!eagle!mjs Phone: +1 201 522 6063 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Mar 85 0427-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #81 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 3 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 81 Today's Topics: Movies - Best/Worst SF Movies (8 msgs) & Earth II, Miscellaneous - Group Minds (2 msgs) & Illuminati Game & Josephson Junction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Worst SF Movies/censorship technique (repost) Date: 27 Feb 85 16:34:26 GMT "Battle Beyond the Stars" was recently nominated in the "Worst SF Movie" discussion. This reminded me of something that was done to this movie when I saw it on broadcast TV, and which I recall seeing in only one other broadcast movie. [A couple other short postings have alluded to this, since this was originally written, but haven't gone into the subject in any depth.] This was a technique of "bluring" or obscuring portions of the image to hide nudity or something the network censors didn't like without clipping out the scene(s) from the movie. In Battle Beyond The Stars, every time the scene was the inside of the warrior-girl's ship, the view of her, lying in her accelleration couch (or whatever it was), was blurred by a grey, fuzzy blotch in the foreground that hid her cleaveage. I saw the same technique in the broadcast of the movie "The Shining" (with Jack Nicholson, based on the Stephen King book). In that, there was a scene of him observing an apparition of a woman taking a bath and stepping out of the bathtub. This would have been full-frontal nudity, and, instead of excising the scene for broadcast, the few seconds when the woman's body would have been visible were blocked by one of these fuzzy grey patches, just over her torso; the rest of the image was clear. I can understand the use of this in "The Shining"; it was a major and probably expensive-to-buy-the-rights picture, and it was better to show as much of it as possible and use this technique to allow that scene to be broadcast without violating the network's code or standards. However, in BBtS, it seems silly. There was no nudity being blocked; just cleaveage shots no racier than what is seen in an average episode of "Love Boat" or dozens of other shows. My questions: What is this technique called, and can anyone provide any technical details as to how it is done, and under what circumstances, and if it is cheap or expensive to do? Can anyone name other movies broadcast on TV in which this technique is or was used? It all seems rather childish; at least one local independent TV station (KPLR, Ch. 11, St. Louis, MO) has been showing movies and reruns of the cable version of the "Bizarre" program which have brief amounts of female nudity, without cutting or obscuring them. It seems a healthy trend to not worry so much about this sort of thing. Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ From: pete%stc-c.gb.UUCP@topaz (Peter Kendell) Subject: Best/worst SF movies Date: 27 Feb 85 09:49:05 GMT Why no mention of "This Island Earth" as the best SF movie of the 1950s??? After an admittedly slow start (the fist 45 minutes are spent setting up the finish, but what's so unusual about that) and some rather unconvincing models the story really hots up with our Earthling heroes joining an interplanetary battle with some really great visuals. This is the movie that E.T. spent some of his time on Earth watching. "Battle Beyond the Stars" footnote. This was shown on commercial TV over here in little ol' England and we were allowed to see the huge-breasted one. You didn't miss THAT much!!!! ------------------------------ From: jsc@ucbvax.ARPA (James Carrington) Subject: Re: Best SF Film Date: 28 Feb 85 06:25:59 GMT To: jlong@bbnccm.ARPA > On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX > 11.. i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society > type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in > charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are > robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ? > now it's starting to sound like brave new world . This sounds an awful lot like THX 1138, George Lucas's first(?) film. a very strange movie... ----- PS -- George Lucas/Star Wars Trivia Question: what cell block did Han Solo and Luke Skywalker tell Leia's guards they were transferring Chewbacca from? -- James Steven Carrington The INGRES Project jsc@berkeley.arpa ucbvax!jsc ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Best SF Film Date: 28 Feb 85 01:29:15 GMT > > Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best > SF Book of all time . > > -Julian Long John Brunner. The sequel to this is STAND ON ZANZIBAR, I believe. Muffy ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz (Jerry Hollombe) Subject: re: Best SF Film Date: 27 Feb 85 21:45:14 GMT >From: @RUTGERS.ARPA:jlong@bbnccm.arpa >Subject: Best SF <[DFilm >Message-ID: <798@topaz.ARPA> > >From: Julian R. Long > >On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX >11.. i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society >type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in >charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are >robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ? >now it's starting to sound like brave new world . Sounds like you're talking about Geroge Lucas's THX1138. I expect there will shortly be 50 more postings to that effect. > Also what about some of the REAL clasics like METROPOLIS . >A must for anyone who wants to be a real s-f fan , black&white very >old and , of course , silent . And on that subject, how many people are aware that _Metropolis_ wasn't written by Fritz Lang? One of my pet peeves is everyone referring to it as "Fritz Lang's _Metropolis_" when the original novel was actually written by Thea von Harbou. -- ====================================================================== The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI If thy CRT offend thee, pluck 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. it out and cast it from thee. Santa Monica, California 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ From: dolqci!mike@topaz (Mike Stalnaker) Subject: Re: Best SF Film Date: 28 Feb 85 13:20:09 GMT > > On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called > > UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title . > This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he > was still in school). It';s cute when you see THX 1138 on a car > license plate in American Graffiti. . . > > jerry Lucas is notorious for that.... In Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom, the Nightclub that was used in the opening scenes in Shanghai was the Club Obi-Wan. In at least one point in each of the Star Wars movies the number THX-1138 was used for somthing. (usually a guard's id or something equally obscure. ) -- Mike Stalnaker {decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike Be wary of strong drink: It can cause you to shoot at the tax collector... and miss. ------------------------------ From: bmcg!yrdbrd@topaz (Larry J. Huntley) Subject: Re: SF movies Date: 27 Feb 85 22:12:08 GMT In article <> jay@smu.UUCP writes: > >Great movie. I saw it a long time ago in Dallas actually replayed >in a theater. It feels like a made-for-tv movie, but it's still >good. The thing I loved most of course was the ending. Absolutely >Perfect Scene!! > >*** SPOILER *** > >The hero is escaping and this girl wants to come along. You wonder >if you should have a happy-all's-well ending. Then the boy and his >dog leave their camp after a nice dinner. Guess who was the dinner? >Would someone please expand this ending to it's full glory? Would someone please expand this *article* to its full NAME so that I can decipher which great SF Movie is being discussed here? 'brd -- Larry J. Huntley Burroughs -(B)- Corporation Advanced Systems Group MS-703 10850 Via Frontera San Diego, CA 92128 - Non Circum Copulae - (619) 485-4544 ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: Best SF Film Date: 1 Mar 85 02:02:21 GMT REFERENCES: <798@topaz.ARPA>, <159@cord.UUCP> >> On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called >> UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title . >This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he was >still in school). It';s cute when you see THX 1138 on a car license >plate in American Graffiti. . . Yes and no. At UCLA he made a 20-minute film THX 2238 4EB. THX 1138 is his remake of his own student film. The license plate in AMERICAN GRAFFITI was THX 138. There was also a reference to the title THX 1138 in STAR WARS. Anyone wanting to send me where they think it is, use the address below. On March 7, I will post the answer, and the names of everyone who got a correct answer to me. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 85 09:32:06 PST (Thursday) Subject: Re: Earth II From: Conde.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA Sender: "Daniel S. Conde.osbunorth"@XEROX.ARPA >If anyone could tell me, I would like to remember the name of the >third film I mentioned. This is where 3 people and in a suspended >animation experiment in a space station when a war breaks out. the >orbit is changed for the station to arrive back at earth in 180 >years (when the radiation) is gone. I think it was called Earth II. Daniel Conde conde.pa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu 28 Feb 85 10:33:23-EST From: Elizabeth Willey Subject: group minds Don't leave out Ursula Le Guin's "Nine Lives", a short story about clones. It's been anthologized several places. The story deals with nine clones of the same person who have been raised together from early infancy---they have no individual identities, cannot conceive of themselves as being separate from each other; they are a group mind of a kind. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 1985 15:38:16-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Group minds and LeGuin.... > From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA > > Ursula LeGuin wrote a short story about a group mind called "Vaster > than Empires and More Slow". As I recall, LeGuin wrote another story called "Nine Lives" that also explored the group mind concept to some degree. In this one, a group of nine human clone-siblings (all cloned from the same parent) are sent to work with a planetary exploration team made up of basically normal humans. The story depicts the relationship(s) between the clones as well as how the humans react to them. The group mind aspects of the story are not dealt with very explicitly, but the normal folks can't help noticing how connected and in tune the clones seem to be with each other. Some of them speculate as to whether the clones represent a true group mind; this possibility is brought to the fore by the reactions of the clones when some of their group (the clones) are killed. I recommend the story, but I don't know where it can be found today; I know only that it originally appeared in "Playboy." --- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 85 11:33 EST From: Mills@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re Illuminati Steve Jackman Games produced a game "Illuminati" about 2-3 years ago. As far as I know it is still in print. The Basic game and each of 2 expansion sets cost about $6 each. Since we are on the topic here is a review of it. Illuminati happens to be one of my favorite games. It will play 2-8 players if you have both expansion sets, but 4-6 is probably optimal. The equipment is one set of 6-8 illuminati cards, 40-100 group cards, and lots of horrible small funny money. The counts here are approximate because of the additions of the expansion set, which are nice, but you could do without reasonable well. Each player starts with one of the illuminati cards and some money. The main aim is to gain control of uncontrolled groups or groups controlled by other players. The latter is much more difficult. The regular victory condition is to control some number of groups that changes with the number of players, but 8 is typical. The group cards all have one input arrow and 0-3 output arrows. As you aquire groups you must connect each new group to one of the output arrows of the group that made attack to control. One tricky part of this is that all of your groups must fit together physically. The groups with no output arrows further complicate this by creating dead ends. In play each group in your power tree has its own income and treasury. That is the reason for the horrible little funny money. Since a group card is only about 1 1/4" x 2" you need small money to fit on top of the card. Us coins or regular number counters from some other game are a good idea. Each group can also have a number of triats. Some of them are staight, weird, violent, criminal, goverment, communist, liberal, conservative,peaceful, and two others I can't remember. One of the pleasures of the game is the artwork on the group card and seeing the traits assigned. These traits also affect attemps to control or kill groups. It is easier to control a group with matching traits than opposite ones with the opposite being true for attempts to destroy a group. Each illminati/player also has some special ability and victory condition. The discordant society gets bennies in trying to control wierd groups with a win if it controls 5. Illuminati is a "VERY" interactive game. If you are willing to pay for it you can affect the outcome of almost anything anyone else tries to do. In most attacks all of the power, defence, group allignments... are added up. This yeilds the number the person must roll less than or equal to on 2 d6. One of the adds/subtracts is money. Anyone can buy plusses or minus of the number. This can be very frustrating as it seems whenever you try to do anything realy good, everyone tells you not to even bother to try, because they won't let you. This can lead to everyone slowly getting very angry at each other. It is very important that people play this game in a somewhat layed back manner, or they might end up hating each other. In closing I will mention that the rules allow for a multiple person win if they all can arrange a deal where they meet their victory conditions simultaenouly. It is very important that everyone understand the trading rules very well. Playing time is 2-6 hours depending on the intensity of threats and trading. John Mills ------------------------------ From: hpltca!marc@topaz (marc) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 21 Feb 85 06:18:00 GMT Cooling the thing reminds me of fables of the "Glowing, Hot, Hairy Golfball" of Josephson junction fame. But I have another worry: Just how exactly does one get power into(!) the thing? Marc Clarke hplabs!hpfcla!hpltcb!marc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Mar 85 0439-EST From: Dave Steiner (Temporary Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #82 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 3 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 82 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Temporary Moderator, Movies - Best/Worst SF movie (7 msgs), Miscellaneous - Boskone 22 (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Mar 85 04:37:09 EST From: Dave Subject: Temporary Moderator Hi Again, This will be my last digest as Saul will be back tomorrow (Monday). It's been great fun even if there has been a lot of traffic and it felt like I'd never catch up. Hope you all had as much fun reading SF-Lovers as I had moderating it. Keep sending the mail (since I'm no longer moderating ;-). Cheers, ds ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 1 Mar 1985 07:43-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Best SF movie I feel that one of the better SF movies, surprisingly not mentioned as yet, is "Collosus, The Forbin Project". For those who haven't seen it, it was about the building of a computer that would total automate this countries missle defense system so that we would no longer have to worry about that aspect of our lives, the computer was designed totally as a defensive tool (plot sound familiar). Eric Bradden played Dr. Forbin I believe. This flick was done in a totally believable manner, not much in special effects, but with the script done as well as this they aren't needed. The story really gets interesting when our computer finds out about its Russian counterpart and decides to strike up a conversation. Good Stuff! ------------------------------ From: dartvax!tedi@topaz (Edward M. Ives) Subject: Re: Best SF Film Date: 28 Feb 85 22:58:34 GMT > From: Julian R. Long > > > On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called UBX > 11.. i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society > type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in > charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are > robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ? > now it's starting to sound like brave new world . It has a real > nail bitting ending .. but of course i wouldn't tell about that . I > saw it in england it was in colour so must be fairly new ?? . > > Also what about some of the REAL clasics like METROPOLIS . A > must for anyone who wants to be a real s-f fan , black&white very > old and , of course , silent . > > Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best > SF Book of all time . > > -Julian Long I believe you are refferring to THX-1138, not UBX-11 something. People on here mention it once in awhile; it is worthy of note mainly because it was George Lucas' first film. It was kind of 1984ish with people running around with bald heads and lots of bright white sets. Doesn't seem quite the "Best SF" material, though. -Ted Ives Dartmough College I mean DartmouTh philabs!ihnp4!dartvax!tedi ------------------------------ Date: Fri 1 Mar 85 08:17:55-MST From: Peter Badovinatz Subject: Metropolis and Brunner (some SPOILER included) > Also what about some of the REAL clasics like METROPOLIS . >A must for anyone who wants to be a real s-f fan , black&white very >old and , of course , silent . The original _Metropolis_ was an incredible film. Has anyone seen the re-released version with the modern score(much of it by Queen)? How did it compare with the original? >Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best SF >Book of all time . >-Julian Long John Brunner wrote _The Sheep Look Up_, about a U.S. on the decline. The writing style is somewhat strange and not at all a "traditional" construction. (begin **SPOILER**) woman in England speaking to her husband: "I can smell something burning dear. Better call the fire brigade." husband: "They'd have a long trip to put it out. That's America you smell." (end **SPOILER**) Some of Brunner's other stuff includes: _Stand on Zanzibar_, written in much the same style as _The Sheep Look Up_, and just as good in my opinion. It has a similar theme as _... Sheep ..._ but a more optimistic ending. _The Crucible of Time_ is written in a more "traditional" style and covers a civilisation about to be destroyed by a natural catastrophe, its history and development. _The Shockwave Rider_ provides some excellent views of a world-wide computer- based information network and the effects of a tapeworm or two. All four of the above are recommended reading. "COINCIDENCE: You weren't paying attention to the other half of what was going on." --"The Hipcrime Vocab" by Chac C. Mulligan Peter R Badovinatz ARPA: BADOVINATZ@UTAH-20 University of Utah Dept. UUCP: decvax!utah-cs!badovin of Computer Science ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 07:34 PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: THX-1138, The Sheep Look Up Date: Tue, 26 Feb 85 16:54:09 EST From: Julian R. Long Subject: Best SF Film Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best SF Book of all time . That was John Brunner. From: cord!gwr@topaz (GW Ryan) Subject: Re: Best SF Film Date: 27 Feb 85 06:22:39 GMT > On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called > UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title . This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he was still in school). It's cute when you see THX 1138 on a car license plate in American Graffiti. . . The original film (a short) was done when he was in college (at USC?). The full length film was his first studio production. By the way, I believe the plate was THX138, since California plates had a maximum of six characters in the sixties. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 85 12:14 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: THX-1138 and The Sheep Look Up. > This is probably THX-1138. Done by George Lucas (I think when he > was still in school). It's cute when you see THX 1138 on a car > license plate in American Graffiti. . . Also note that the new super Dolby system developed by Lucasfilms is called THX. > Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best > SF Book of all time . This is written by John Brunner. He also wrote The Shockwave Rider, an excellent book that should be on the Computers in Fiction list. Helpful Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 1 Mar 85 10:25:19-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Sheep? _The Sheep Look Up_ is by John Brunner. Not English, to the best of my knowledge... Rich Alderson@Score ------------------------------ Date: 1 Mar 85 16:59:43 EST From: That young upstart again Subject: Re: Great Movie >Julian R. Long writes- >... i can't remember the whole title . It is a futureistic society >type film (1984 ish) this guy is getting all sorts from them in >charge , funny seens with his wife/lover? . Oh yes , the police are >robots , everyone is bald , i think they have to take some drug ? ********WARNING WILL ROBINSON!!! ALIEN SPOILER APPROACHING******** This movie is THX 1138, and is George Lucas' first film. I have heard that the film was originally his graduation thesis, but Universal(?) picked it up, and funded a remake. THX 1138 is the main character in the movie , and was played by Robert Duvall. The society is geared towards production, and NOT taking drugs (stimulants, barbituates, etc.) is against the law. There are automated/non-intelligent confessional/therapists that constantly repeat "I understand...I see...Hmmm...Could you be more specific?..." when you sit in them. The police were indeed robots, and acted pleasantly all the time. THX's wife, LUH something, finds that life without drugs is great, and stops giving drugs to THX. Over time, he gets quite ill from withdrawal, and, clutching his stomach, visits one of the confessionals,where the conversation goes something like: THX: I feel sick Confessional: I see... THX: (Doubling over) I really mean it! Confessional: Could you be more specific?... The rest I leave to your imagination. THX and his wife are captured, and sentenced. LUH is returned to an embryo state, and THX, feeling better for not taking drugs, is put in asylum, because anyone who doesn't want drugs must be crazy. He breaks out of the asylum with a crazed hologram, and more happens that I will not reveal, for fear of revealing too much already. ********SPOILER OFF******** All in less than all, I thought that this was a well thought out, well made film. Unfortunately, movies of this type do not get widely released, and end up on Night Owl-type TV. It's worth at least one viewing, so check it out. J. Dunsel Trudel Dunsel?!?? Jim, what does it mean? "A witty saying proves nothing, but saying something pointless gets people's attention" J. D. Trudel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 1985 15:00 EST From: ELIZABETH%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Boskone [a regrettably long message] I was glad to see that I am not alone in feeling a bit disappointed with Boskones lately, especially this year. For whatever reason, I didn't find much interesting or stimulating about the convention, and I don't think it will be worthwhile for me to go next year. Maybe we're getting jaded. However, I can't agree with many of Dan's points. In many respects, the problem may be one of a changing face of sf... From: bnl!davison@topaz (Dan Davison) Subject: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution:flamethrower set on broil) "...I was so disgusted with the fall of NESFA that I didn't bother going to the con Sunday and Monday." "the limited events available were for the most part well run" NESFA's fall from what??? It bothers me a little that you didn't stay for the whole weekend and give the convention a chance. How can you judge the events as limited if you didn't stay for a third (or more) of them? "They were charging $22.00 at the door for => one day admission <= , the same as for the full event...the people working the registration desk offered the stunningly lame excuse that "with these badges we can't tell one day people from all-weekend people"." $22 is steep; two of my friends didn't come because they felt one day for $22 isn't worth it...I paid in advance, myself ($17). As for the i.d., it's simple; have two different types of badges, or a badge and a hand-stamp, or a sticker system for badges, or... "In less than 10 minutes in the registration area I heard *at least* 10 people express surprise and disgust...but they still paid." Exactly. They paid. Until the convention organizers price themselves out of the market---which, with ~3,000 people at the con, is going to take a while---they will pay, and pay, and pay. "What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a uniform $22.00: greed. Yep, GREED. The *** are buying a clubhouse and are using fen from all over the northeast to generate money for their relatively private use. ... this is a gross violation and ripoff of everything fandom has stood for. I'm sorry to disagree with you here, because I do agree with your outraged feelings. But NESFA has a right, I guess, to raise money and spend it as they please, same as the Girl Scouts or the Modern Language Association. They are "Inc.", a business entity, not nonprofit as far as I know (correct me; I may be wrong). As for fandom...what was it fandom stood for that is being ripped off or betrayed? SF is Big Business, meaning Big Bucks, nowadays. Entrepeneurial fen are taking advantage of the oppor- tunity to make a profit. "I also was informed several times that the lousy film/video schedule was deliberate, because they didn't want riff-raff (no not him!) off the streets coming in "just to see the movies"." dan davison Now that peeves me. I'm one of those riff-raff, then, because half the fun (more, maybe) for me is the movies, which were, let's be frank, stale this year. And last year. The panel programming, which originally attracted me to Boskone, is getting continually weaker. The best one this year was on Sunday, discussing "Building a Society", and even it contained little that was in-depth, illuminating, or really memorable and interesting. Many of the authors on panels just seemed to be going through the motions...like NESFA. Eliz. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Furthermor... "One of Robert Heinlein's books (The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?) had a computer named Mycroft, who helped the young hero achieve his rightful estate." This sounds very different than my edition of the book, in which a computer called Mycroft, or Mike, helps a bunch of revolutionaries overthrow an oppressive government...but it might be a good plot for Star Trek IV. (I for the money! II for the money! III for the money! IV for the money!) ------------------------------ From: ron@brl-tgr.ARPA (Ron Natalie ) Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set on Subject: broil) Date: 28 Feb 85 02:34:23 GMT > 3 AM is way too early to shut down a party? That sounds pretty late > to me. Ah come on. Even thought they lost money, we had parties 'til dawn at Constellation. -Ron ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry) Subject: Re: Boskone 22 Date: 1 Mar 85 17:15:07 GMT First off, I would like to say that I enjoyed Boskone 22 (for the most part). The Art Show was excellent, the hucksters room had space to move in, the movie room was quite adequate, even for Dr. Jeckyl. However, I must protest the movies, and interface with the hotel. The movies were quite horrible this year. The only good ones were the silent, the slide show (Phil Folio, et al), and Jitlov. Otherwise, it seemed like the same shorts were shown, and the feature films were really lacking. Even if nobody showed Star Trek, etc., I am sure that better movies could have been found. Interface with the hotel being lacking is understandable. Given that the Marriott didn't quite expect 3000+ lunatics roaming the corridors til dawn, it is amazing that things went as smoothly as they did. However, a BIG problem (for fen with any bucks at all), was the dress code in the restaurants. NESFA really should have checked this out beforehand, and either warned us to dress in a manner befitting those who spend lots of money for a beer, or (even better) informing the hotel of the manner of fan attending conventions, and getting them to relax the rules for the duration. (Yes, I realize that one restaurant allowed scruffy fen in, but it wasn't quite enough. Programming also wasn't too hot, but I agree with the assumption that we may be "growing out of" some of it. After all, how many panels on world building do you want to go to. There will always be problems with hotels, elevators, restaurants, unruly fans, etc. Taking all into consideration, NESFA did a good job again this year. Now if they can only get some better movies.... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 85 1612-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #83 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 83 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Return Home, Books - Anthony & Brunner & Chalker & Herbert & Simak & Wilson (2 msgs), Films - Five Million Years to Earth (2 msgs) & Brainstorm & Worst SF Film , Television - Space Patrol & Quark, Miscellaneous - SF Book Club & Button Help (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Mar 85 13:09:08 EST From: Saul Subject: Administrivia Hello folks, As most of you have probably figured out by now, I have been away for this past week. I would like to thank Dave Steiner (postumously - he died from something he DIGESTed) for keeping the digest running while I was away on business. There are many requests from you piled up in my mail and I will get to them as soon as I can. It may take me a day or two to straighten everything out and get back into things here. NOTE: Issues #63 and #64 have apparently gone the way of the dinosaur. There seems to have been some glitch in the mailer somewhere and as a result EVERYTHING for those two issues have disappeared. Sorry about that. And now on with the show.... ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985 07:09:50-PST From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Those who can't do, emulate) Subject: Xanth OK, I've heard enough complaining about Anthony's Xanth series. Sure, we all know it's hack writing; no challenge, simple characters, etc. I gave up on it after the first few books. Why can't all those who are complaining simply do so also, and shut up. Have none of you ever written a piece of software (or whatever else you might do) even though it was not ultimately challenging, nor universally significant? Perhaps, maybe, because that's your primary source of income, and you agree with me (and Piers Anthony) that money is worth having? In the second volume of Bio Of A Space Tyrant, in a long self-bio section, Anthony explains a lot about his writing style, personal life, and projects. He mentions Xanth, and explains that he writes it because (paraphrasing): a. Writing is his business, and he likes to earn money. b. Writing cheap, humorous, light fantasy is easy, quick, and not unenjoyable. c. Lots of people out there love cheap, humorous, light fantasy. d. Because of points (b) and (c), cheap, humorous, light fantasy is very profitable. Personally, I wish he didn't spend time on projects like Xanth, since I'd rather see serious stuff (like Bio and Incarnations) come more quickly. But that's his business (in both senses of the word), and complaining is unfair and senseless. If you don't like Xanth, don't buy it. If NOBODY likes Xanth, or if too few people like it, it will cease to be profitable and there won't be any more -- and the poor guy will have to struggle by on what he can make honestly! /dave Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua NH 03062 orac::butenhof butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA {allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof ------------------------------ From: ISM780!geoff@topaz Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 3 Mar 85 06:42:19 GMT >> Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the >> Best SF Book of all time . >> >> -Julian Long > >John Brunner. The sequel to this is STAND ON ZANZIBAR, I believe. > Muffy John Brunner is correct, however I DON'T think SOZ is a sequel to TSLU, they both occur in similar "worlds", but are otherwise unrelated. Each book ends in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of the other book happening on the same planet. (of course, I could be wrong, but I've read them each more than 4 times, and I'd like to think I'd have noticed). (BTW, both books are highly recommendable) Geoffrey Kimbrough -- Director of Dangerous Activities INTERACTIVE Systems Corp. ...!ima!ism780!geoff ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 Mar 85 11:04:05-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: Chalker The Four Lords of the Diamond seems to be getting bad press around here. I liked it, anyway, and I didn't notice any deformed women in it. Certainly the series ends on a somewhat apocalyptic note, but it's worth reading. It's actually about as "hard" sf as he has written. The Dancing Gods books are fun if you can put up with a series that is a parody of itself (a barbarian named Joe?!?). War of Shadows is also a good standalone, particularly if you like quadruple-bluff what-the-bleep-is-going-on stories. His other stuff has mostly been mentioned. I agree that his politics tend to repeat in most of his books, but this goes for most authors I have read. --Rob ------------------------------ From: ncoast!chandave@topaz (Davy Chan) Subject: DUNE books Date: 3 Mar 85 07:31:25 GMT Does anyone have some information on any books after the fourth DUNE book entitled "God Emperor of Dune". I just read through all four books and am breaking out in hives waiting to see how the next one will be. Later much... d.c. ------------------------------ From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: 'Way Station' - Clifford D. Simak (& Clarke) (& SFBC) Date: 4 Mar 85 01:06:02 GMT Yes, WAY STATION is a good novel, and greatly underdiscussed. I haven't read it in a long time, but I still remember enjoying it when I was twelve, and several times since then. If any of you have read "The Big Back Yard" (see THE SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME, volume 2B), let me tell you that WAY STATION has the same kind of quietly escalating dramatic power, except better. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Mar 1985 23:53:14-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Illuminatus books listed > From: psuvm!d3u > Here is as far as I know the complete list of books by R.A.Wilson > in the series > > The Illuminatus! trilogy: consists of The Golden Apple, The Eye > in the Pyramid and Leviathan. They were cowritten with Robert > O'Shea. About a year ago they were reissued together in a single > volume. ... Cosmic Trigger... > > Masks of the Illuminati... > > The Illuminati Papers... > > Schrodinger's Cat trilogy consists of The Universe Next Door, > The Trick Top Hat, and The Homing Pigeons... > > The Earth Will Shake Volume One of the Illuminati Chronicles... You forgot THE SEX MAGICIANS, Sheffield House (paperback), 1973. This is a hardcore porno novel featuring some characters from the Illuminatus books. Imagine Markoff Chaney dressed in a Teddy Snowcrop suit, licking orange juice from a woman's private parts... It's not just for breakfast anymore... The book also has scenes set in ancient Atlantis, with such characters as Klarkash-Ton and Luv-Kerapht. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1985 12:18:58 EST From: Subject: Illuminatus Game Update Since I posted my message on the Illuminati game from Steve Jackson, I have discovered that the firm has just released a new addition: Expansion Set #3. This unit, slightly cheaper than the others because it has a plastic bag rather than a box, does not add new Illuminati groups or other groups to the game. Instead, it adds new rules and pieces for two enjoyable extensions: brainwashing and propaganda. By using the rules correctly, I have probably engendered in the readers of this article the desire to go purchase the game. (Or maybe I've just been brainwashed to believe that...) ------------------------------ From: siemens!steve@topaz Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-s Date: 1 Mar 85 17:45:00 GMT Five Million Years to Earth is a HORRIBLE film!! It's one of those schlock things where the scientist sees something inexplicable, dreams up a ridiculous (i.e. almost totally unsupported by evidence) explanation for it, and this explanation is taken as fact for the rest of the movie. Movies like this spread more wrong ideas about science than creationism! (well, maybe I'm exaggerating a little...) If it were about the occult it would be a pseudo-science fiction film. Perhaps it should be called an anti-science fiction film? In fact, the more I think about this, the more I like the connection with creationism. The 'science' in a movie like this is very much like the 'science' in creationism -- based on nonunderstanding of what science is really about, based on jumping to conclusions, etc. ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: Five Million Years to Earth Date: 2 Mar 85 16:31:46 GMT >I have seen 'FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH' a couple times on TV, but >I would hardly classify it as one of the best SF movies I've seen. >It doesn't really hold a candle to many films mentioned previously. Obviously these are matters of taste. I like a science fiction film with a strong idea. Something that takes some thinking about. I can think of no other science fiction film that I find so thought provoking. I will also add that I know a lot of people who rate this film at least in their top five. >I thought it was more like a Horror film, a genre for which I don't >really care. Odd, I see very little horror element in the film. Less than in ANDROMEDA STRAIN. >Yes, it had some interesting ideas, but hardly enough to justify >'Best SF Flick'. What are your criteria for "best" then? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM) Date: 2 Mar 85 16:09:07 GMT > What's to explain? It was meant only to be a throwaway --- a gag > pulled on the one guy by the other. There was no intent on > developing it as a concept; the story moved off in another > direction totally. Now, I agree that it's a fascinating idea that > deserves a full treatment of it's own, but it really had no > relevance to the story in BRAINSTORM, except very superficially. > > --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) I also think that it matters. The problem is that the BRAINSTORM idea is so rich in implications. Even a long novel would leave most of the implications untouched. When technology can raise man to be a totally empathetic creature, completely understanding the thoughts of another, the nature of all human relationships the invention touches will change. The at-death-experience is one of the least interesting implications they could follow. (Still for the idea and the ideas the film does have, I like the film a lot.) Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Subject: WORST SF Film Date: 03 Mar 85 20:50:02 PST (Sun) From: Operations Who could forget that computer stinker Superman III? For example: How do you gain access to the corporation's accounting files? You type 'OVERIDE ALL SECURITY'. A real zero. Doug Krause dkrause@uci-icsb.ARPA ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ix241@topaz ({) Subject: re: SF show from the fifties Date: 1 Mar 85 20:30:28 GMT Does the show _Space Patrol_ jog any memories in netland? John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ From: udenva!zmh10@topaz (zmh10) Subject: Re: Spoofs, to wit, Quark Date: 26 Feb 85 20:40:39 GMT > As I remember, Quark aired about 4 or five years ago and there > were only 4 episodes. I enjoyed it while it lasted. Besides > Quark, the captain, the second in command was the "plant" being > whose name was something like Ficus which is a Latin work having > to do with plants. I can't remember the twins names, but I > believe they were clones. The other member of the crew was > another alien who kept changing gender and was called Gene/Jean. > > Thier ship was an interplanetary garbage truck and they went > around collecting space baggies. Can't seem to remember any of > the plots. Probably just as well. The clones were both named Betty. One plot involved Quark aging prematurely, one involved the crew meeting their evil doubles, and so on, all spoofing various Star Trek episodes. I forget the robot's name, but he looked a lot like the one from Lost in Space. He often had personal crises and fell in love with other machines. Steven Howard. ex-Quark viewer. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 13:04:44 PST From: Dave Suess Subject: SF Book Club I have seen two kinds of postings on the SF Book Club in the many that I've seen lately: 1. poster is quitting, books now cost too much. 2. poster is active, but continuously re-joins so as to obtain offer designed to attract new members. I'm in a third category (long-time member, sad that prices are going up but intending to remain a member) and was wondering if *everyone* else is in the other two. If so, I can extrapolate that I, too, will someday be driven out; I'd hate that, since the postage on the reply forms is well worth the bargain I pick up (admittedly mostly on older titles) a few times a year. I enjoy even a mediocre-quality hardback much more than the smaller, can't-prop-up paperback. Am I the only "chump" in my category? Dave Suess zeus@aerospace.ARPA Anecdote: Once (I haven't checked lately) I even wrote in to ask if it were OK to *overpay* my balance, expecting to order more shortly. The SFBC wrote back to say if I kept a credit balance (and it was very low - $10, I think), I could get a 10% discount on orders. I did, and continued for quite a while before getting too busy -- and I assume that this service no longer exists, considering the not-so-slow rise in prices. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 3 Mar 85 06:13:13-EST From: geoffrey dov cooper Subject: imp of the peverse To: ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA the true name of the imp of the peverse is murphy. it is mentioned repeatedly in the warlock unlocked by cristopher stasheff as the arch enemy of the catholic sect of saint vidicon. "praying to saint vidicon will occasionally get random bugs out. any port in a storm don't ya' know" shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa insanity is just an overdose of reality. ------------------------------ From: reed!todd@topaz (Todd Ellner) Subject: Re: Help with button Date: 2 Mar 85 22:20:28 GMT > From: Ron Natalie > > I have a button that reads > I am the Imp of the Perverse (knowing this won't help you > either) > Question is what does it mean? It refers to an essay by Edgar Allen Poe called The Imp of the Perverse. Todd Ellner ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Mar 1985 14:45-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Help with Button >I have a button that reads > > I am the Imp of the Perverse > (knowing this won't help you either) > >That I bought and stuck on our MILNET IMP. Actually, I had to by >another one because I think our IMP hardware guy took the first >one. Question is what does it mean. Does this relate to some >book? Can anyone help with a reference? Please reply by mail. I think one possible answer is a line (or the theme) from NATIONAL LAMPOONS "DETERIORATA" sung by Melissa Manchester. The line is "You are a fluke of the universe. You have no right to be here. Whether you believe it or not the universe is laughing behind your back."... and so forth and so on. wesm@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 85 1644-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #84 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 84 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Brin & Clarke (4 msgs), Films - Star Trek (5 msgs), Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, 3 Mar 1985 21:17:14-PST From: feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: DOUGLAS ADAMS INTERVIEW About 4 moons ago (and an unknown number of digests) someone mentioned that through a downlink TV reciever, they had seen half an interview with Douglas Adams. Well this Sunday I saw the Whole interview. The piece was done for the PBS show "NEW TECH TIMES". The segment was covering interactive fiction (beyond DUNGEON). He talked about the movie, which is going to be done by the people who did "Ghostbusters". He also talked about getting "hooked" on computers and how it lead him to doing the "Hitchhikers..." in that form. He also mentioned that the whole game would take about 5 days straight to play and that it generally followed the book but not slavishly. BTW the person who saw the Adams half didn't miss much. Mort, the moderator from the NTT is not what I would call a great interviewer. If it hadn't been for his notes and the fact that I'm sure Adams had been well briefed beforehand it would of fallen on its face. ps Adams was in New York and NTT comes out of the U. of Wisconson...so much for the sat link. Jim Feldman aka Ron Post of TTR TTR is a trademark of Trans-Temporal Research: "When it ABSOLUTLY has to be there yesterday...TTR" ------------------------------ Date: Sat 2 Mar 85 19:58:16-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Brin Fans Rejoice! David Brin fans will be pleased to learn that Bantam will be publishing his two newest books in late fall. One will be POSTMAN, (one assumes it will be based on his stories in IASFM), and the other will be THE UPLIFT WAR. The second may be what was called GORILLA as a working title, but I'm not sure. Also, Gregg Press will be putting out a quality hardcover of STARTIDE RISING. Thanks to the great George Flynn for buying LOCUS with 1st class postage!! wz ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Pointers please? Date: 1 Mar 85 15:02:57 GMT From Susser.PASA@Xerox.ARPA: >> I am looking for stories dealing with racial memory or group minds. > > The Fire Lizards in Anne McCaffrey's Pern series had racial > memory. So did Paul Muad'dib Atreides ("Dune") and his children > and his sister Alia. Keith Laumer's "The Infinite Cage" has a > character who can draw upon the memories of all of humanity > somewhat telepathically. There are two kinds of racial memory (of sorts) in Clarke's CHILDHOOD'S END: when Joan "remembered" the catalog designation of the Overlords' home base, and a curious kind of "inverse" racial memory linking the last days of the human race to the shape of the Overlords, resulting in the classical image of the devil back in our prehistory (racial memory as a tape loop?). > And to all you people in net land: I remember a short story (by > Heinlein or Asimov?) that involved a starship manned by a > multi-racial crew coming to evacuate Earth before Sol goes nova. > A few of the crew were part of a group mind. This was important > when a landing party was trapped in a trans-Atlantic subway and > cut off from radio communications. Anyone know the author/title? Clarke again. I think it was "RESCUE MISSION"; it's in THE SENTINEL. Brandon Allbery, decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa, ncoast!bsa@case.csnet (etc.) 6504 Chestnut Road Independence, Ohio 44131 +1 216 524 1416 CIS 74106,1032 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 21:30:17 pst From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley Subject: Dates for Clarke titles > #1 is actually two books (same book, different edition) by Arthur > Clarke: "Against the Fall of Night" (circa 1957), or "The City and > the Stars" (circa 1961). > Not sure about the dates - where is Jayembee when you need him?! Well, I might not be Jayembee (I have prettier blue eyes), but I can tell you: Against the Fall of Night. [New York]: Gnome Press, [1953] The City and the Stars. [New York]: Harcourt Brace and Company, [1956] Use this information wisely, you can never tell when there will be a test. "Bibliography isn't my business, it's my hobby" Joe Kalash unisoft!kalash@berkeley ucbvax!unisoft!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Mar 1985 23:20:32-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT/CITY AND THE STARS > From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Mark Maxson) > #1 is actually two books (same book, different edition) by Arthur > Clarke: "Against the Fall of Night" (circa 1957), or "The City and > the Stars" (circa 1961). > > He rewrote the story while on a cruise ship to fight off boredom, > but in all honesty, I think the original was better. Not sure > about the dates - where is Jayembee when you need him?! > > "Bibliography is none of my business..." ZZZZZZZZZZZ...... Huh? What? Oh, ah, right here, Max. Lessee, AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT was written in 1937, published in STARTLING STORIES, November 1938 and in book form by Gnome Press in 1953, with numerous paperback editions. THE CITY AND THE STARS was published in 1956 by Harcourt, Brace, followed again by numerous paperback editions. What's bizarre is that both versions continue to stay in print as separate books. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: 'Way Station' - Clifford D. Simak (& Clarke) (& SFBC) Date: 4 Mar 85 01:06:02 GMT From THE LION OF COMMARRE/AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT ((c) 1968?): Clarke write AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT between 1937 and 1946. He wrote and sold several other stories, then (after John W. Campbell turned it down), got it published in the November 1948 STARTLING STORIES. It appeared in hardcover (Gnome Press) in 1953, and has been reissued since than, more than once, by Pyramid. THE CITY AND THE STARS was published by Harcort, Brace, and World in 1956, and has remained in print since then. All the time, I assumed that the new version would completely replace the older novel, but AGAINST THE FALL OF NIGHT showed no tendency to fade away; indeed, to my slight shagrin, some readers preferred it its successor, and it has now been reissued several times in paperback (Pyramid Books). One day I would like to conduct a poll to discover which is the more popular version; I have long ago given up trying to decide which is the better one. [Clarke] I like 'em both. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Mar 85 16:10 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Star Trek Movies >[Some people where talking about extra footage inserted into ST:TMP >and STII when on TV.] George Takei (Sulu) talked here at MIT last Monday (Feb 25), and I think he said that the additional footage on TV is in the video cassette version. He also said that there were additional scenes shot, some of which are in the video, and some not. His favorite of those, as he put it, "playing on the cutting room floor," was one wherein Sulu gets his command, and he's going to try to get Harve Bennett (sp?) to reinsert it in STIV, which will start shooting in September, for release in June 1986. Also, some of the episodes now being released (at a low, low price of $14.95 each) have additional scenes. He also mentioned the possibility of a new /Star Trek/ TV series. Since neither Shatner nor Nimoy was interested in doing the show on a regular basis, Takei is trying to convince the powers that be that the show should be called /Captain Sulu/. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 3 Mar 1985 12:47:41-PST From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Rabbit, you're - you're From: despicable!!) Subject: Star Trek I/II - Extended Length ST I >From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford >> The question that comes to this observer is: WHY did the NETWORKS >> end up with this 'augmented' version? Why didn't this end up in >> the theaters? Or cable? Or videodisk/tape? >> >> The second one of course is when WILL it? >> >> John Francini, DEC Maynard > > I too noticed some of this additional footage; not all that >John reports, but at least one scene that he didn't mention: >shortly after Kirk returns from the genesis cave, he and Spock are >climbing through the Enterprise due to malfunctioning elevators. >Kirk says to Spock, "That young man -- he's my son!" To which Spock >replies with a sarcastic "Faaascinating." At least I didn't >remember this from the theatrical release. > Surely everyone remembers when ST:TMP was first shown by ABC >and was expanded quite a bit in order to fill out a three hour time >slot. I liked this version of ST:TMP quite a bit better than the >theatrical version; is this expanded version available on any >medium? Well, if you want into any reasonably-complete video tape store, you should be able to find the 'Extended-Length' version of ST:TMP available for sale or rent. In the Natick/Framingham area, two places that have it are Video Plus on route 126 and Videosmith on Route 9. [These locations are all in the greater Boston area, for all those out-of-Mass. readers.] John Francini Francini%Cygnus.DEC@Decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Mar 1985 07:48:22-PST From: rcodyer%bailey.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Spock here,ready to beam up...) Subject: another st4 plot??? I've been reading more about possible ST4 movie plots on Compuserve. Please remember, I'm only the messenger. The latest is an all-out war between the Federation and the Klingons, I assume over the Genesis project. This could be true, since in ST3, there were "Galactic Conferences" going on over Genesis. On the other hand, I've also read that producer Harve Bennet and director Nimoy have just started recruiting writers. If true, how could anyone know the plot? A war between the Feds and the Klingons could be a good plot, if a litte more imagination is put into it. However, such a plot might not appeal to non-trekkies. Any comments? "So we have war. We didn't want it, but there it is." "Curious how you humans manage to obtain that which you do not want." ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry) Subject: Star Trek III Date: 4 Mar 85 16:02:47 GMT ST III is finally out on videotape. It's also cheap! Now, where can I get ST II with the additional scenes that were run on ABC. Contrary to popular myth, they are NOT on the general release video- tape. Mikki ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Mar 1985 23:04:38-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: STAR TREK II on ABC > From: francini%cygnus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Francini) > The question that comes to this observer is: WHY did the NETWORKS > end up with this 'augmented' version? Why didn't this end up in > the theaters? Or cable? Or videodisk/tape? > > The second one of course is when WILL it? [The text of this answer also appeared in net.startrek as a response to different posting.] Remember when STAR WARS appeared on CBS a year ago? The ratings were abysmal. Why, when SW was one of the top money-makers of all time? Because by the time it appeared on CBS, most of the people who cared about seeing it already had a copy of the tape/disk, or had rented such, or had seen the movie a few months before on HBO (and probably taped it from there, too). Adding scenes to the two TREK movies, or the two SUPERMAN movies for that matter, for their network screening was done to give a reason for those folks who already had the movies on tape or had seen them on cable to watch the network tv showing. This is a perfectly resonable thing to do, and I enjoy having these various alternate versions around. What pissed me off royally about this adding of scenes to WRATH OF KHAN is that there was no mention anywhere in TV GUIDE or anywhere else that there were going to be scenes added. With STAR TREK---THE MOTION PICTURE and SUPERMAN---THE MOVIE, there was heavy advertisement much in advance that there was going to be additional material. The other Sunday, however, after checking TV GUIDE and seeing no mention of extra material, I assumed that there would be none, and so, didn't bother watching it, let alone taping it. Why should I have? I have the film on Beta Hi-Fi tape. By not advertising the extra scenes, they probably lost quite a few viewers. Well, I can always hope that they'll re-release the videotape with the extra material like they did with ST---TMP. > From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford (Jeff Rogers) > Surely everyone remembers when ST:TMP was first shown by ABC > and was expanded quite a bit in order to fill out a three hour > time slot. I liked this version of ST:TMP quite a bit better than > the theatrical version; is this expanded version available on any > medium? Yes, it is. As I said above, ST---TMP was re-released on videotape/disk in its expanded form. As far as I know, both versions of the film are still "in print" on tape and disk, though I believe that the expanded version is the only one available in VHS Stereo or Beta Hi-Fi formats. This is unlike CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, of which only the "Special Edition" is available on videotape (to say nothing of the tv version, which combines all of the elements of both theatrical versions). I don't think that the tv versions of either of the Superman movies are available on tape, either. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985 00:26:32-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: DR. WHO cancellation > From: Alan Greig (Dundee, Scotland) > The BBC announced yesterday (27th February 85) that no more > episodes of Dr. Who would be made for at least the next 18 > months.... If they are allowed to get away with this it could > well spell the end of Dr. Who for good and killing off a program > with over 100 million fans worldwide... After 21 years they cant > kill the Doctor now ! So (he asks snidely), who's going to throw the celebratory party? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Mar 85 1704-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #85 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 85 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Henderson (2 msgs) & LeGuin & Palmer (2 msgs) & Books for Writers & Story Request Answered, Films - Five Million Years to Earth Television - V ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz Subject: Asprin's Mythical Books Date: 27 Feb 85 18:26:42 GMT For those of you who've been avoiding the Phil Foglio comic book versions of Robert Asprin's Myth books, _Myth Conceptions_ has just arrived in Ace paperback. It bears a cover by Walter Velez, who does the covers for the Thieve's World books, and will be filed right along side, so look carefully or it might just blend in. According to the inside cover, _Myth Directions_ is due in June, and _Hit or Myth_ in September. Something to look forward to. [Personally, I find Foglio's art fairly annoying. On the other hand, I like Velez's covers a lot.] -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ Subject: Request answer Date: 02 Mar 85 18:43:28 PST (Sat) From: Dave Godwin Yeah, the movie 'The People' was indeed based on Zenna Henderson's books. I have not seen it since I was a kid, and so cannot recall it well enough to give it an accurate rating. I like her books, though. It was a real pisser when I heard she had died. In the movie, by the way, the character of Dr. Curtis, the human who learns about, and then is accepted into, a group of the People was played by ( get this ) William Shatner. I don't remember any more of the cast. Dave Godwin The Memory Man ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 2 Mar 1985 15:13:16-PST From: stan%hare.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Stanley Rabinowitz) Subject: Re: TV movie based on Henderson's PILGRIMAGE In response to jcr's question about a made-for-TV movie based on Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE: Yes, the movie is based on Zenna Henderson's novels. In fact, it follows several chapters in the book very closely. It's one of my favorite SF movies. It shows in the Boston area about once a year. I don't remember most of the actors, other than William Shatner who plays the doctor. The movie is called "The People". ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Mar 1985 23:33:48-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Le Guin's "Nine Lives" ["Nine Lives"? Isn't that a cat food?] > From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford (Jeff Rogers) > As I recall, LeGuin wrote another story called "Nine Lives" > that also explored the group mind concept to some degree.... > > I recommend the story, but I don't know where it can be found > today; I know only that it originally appeared in "Playboy." Well, it's appeared in a plethora of out-of-print anthologies, but its most accessible appearance is in Le Guin's collection THE WIND'S TWELVE QUARTERS. Incidentally, this is the only story by Le Guin which has appeared under a "pseudonym" (at least, she considers it such). In PLAYBOY, it was published under the genderless by-line of "U. K. Le Guin". Apparently, the PLAYBOY editors weren't sure that their readers would go for a story by a woman. So much for Hefner's claim to be supportive of women's rights. Of course, this *did* happen in 1969, some time before a lot of men got their heads straightened. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 85 15:54:09 EST From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH Subject: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer "Emergence" is David R. Palmer's first novel. It was issued by Bantam in paperback last November. Emergence is based on the novelette "Emergence" and the novella "Seeking" which appeared in the January 5, 1981 and February 1983 issues of Analog magazine. Rewritten versions of these stories comprise the first third of the novel. These stories won Palmer a Nebula nomination, two Hugo nominations, and two John W. Campbell nominations for best new writer. And these were his first two stories! Emergence chronicles the adventures of 11-year-old Candy Smith-Foster. She is a disease-immune superhuman homo post hominem, "man who follows man", created by fetuses exposed to a flu epidemic. A biowar has wiped out homo sapiens. Hominems are divided into two classes, the AAs, recognized, studied, and given all the advantages in life, and the ABs, with ordinary upbringings that turned many into sociopaths. Armed with an AA address list, Candy sets out with her pet macaw Terry on a quest to find AAs, solve the mystery of why they have all moved away, while meeting up with other people, both good and bad. Spider Robinson's cover blurb states "This is probably the best first novel I have ever read." I completely agree. The two Analog stories were easily as good as their awards competition. Do other people have their choices for best first novel? Possibilities that come to mind are Brin, Varley, and Forward. ------------------------------ From: draves@harvard.ARPA (Richard Draves) Subject: Re: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer Date: 4 Mar 85 07:17:21 GMT I enjoyed Emergence while I was reading it, but upon thinking back I noticed many problems with the book. I don't think the characterizations are that good. On the other hand, I can't remember a genius protagonist whose intelligence was very convincing. Most importantly, I found the plot twists at the end completely unbelievable. Palmer could have found a better continuation to his novella and novellette. Still, I did enjoy the book for some unfathomable reason. I get the feeling Palmer analyzed his intended audience of Analog readers and concocted a story designed to cater to their tastes. Rich ------------------------------ From: styx!mcb@topaz (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Books for SF writers Date: 17 Feb 85 06:38:32 GMT From: pduff > [Please, if you know of any other books which discuss the process > of authoring or publishing SF stories or books (not writing in > general, just SF writing) will you post title, author & publisher, > and perhaps a review on SF-Lovers?]. Here are four from my bookshelf. I've read a few others, but can't remember their titles at the moment. One was by Barry Longyear and included a writer's-point-of-view analysis of his novella "Enemy Mine." de Camp, L. Sprague and Catherine C. SCIENCE FICTION HANDBOOK, REVISED. (McGraw-Hill, 1977, trade pb, 220pp., $3.95. ISBN 0-07-016198-4). This is a revised edition of their 1953 "Handbook." It covers the recent history of sf, "how to write," "how to sell," etc. Despite the revision it still seems dated, since most of the examples are from sf of the 1940's and 50's. Bretnor, Reginald, ed. THE CRAFT OF SCIENCE FICTION. (Barnes & Noble, 1977, trade pb, 321pp., $4.95. ISBN 0-06-463457-4). Consists of 15 chapters by well-known sf authors, each focusing on some part of writing sf, e.g., Hal Clement on hard science, N. Spinrad on rubber science, Herbert on non-terrestrial planets, Ellison on video and teleplays. Well-written throughout. Hope it's sill in print. Delany, Samuel R. THE JEWEL-HINGED JAW: ESSAYS ON SCIENCE FICTION. (Berkley/Windhover, 1978, trade pb, 303pp., $4.95. ISBN 425-03852-1). A collection of critical and speculative essays about particular sf works and about the genre in general. Not a how-to book, but a must for anybody seriously interested in writing sf. There's something for everybody here: Delany can switch from casual chatter to serious discussions of semiotics and linguistics in the space of a paragraph. Highly recommended. Kenin, Millea. OTHERGATES [#3]. (Unique Graphics, 1025 - 55th St., Oakland, CA 94608, 1982, trade pb, 168pp., $5.00. ISBN/ISSN: unknown). A market guide for sf writers and artists. I have #2, which is a newsprint folio, and #3, which is a trade pb. According to the editor, it is meant to appear annually, supplemented by quarterly updates. Lists professional and fan publications, book publishers, little magazines, journals of criticism, etc. I don't know if it is still being published, but even if it isn't it's worth trying to find a copy of the latest edition. Michael C. Berch {akgua,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb mcb@lll-tis.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 5 Mar 1985 00:27:48-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Story Identification > From: Joseph M. Newcomer > The plot: Geologists have evidence (new theory, new instruments, > ?) that a major earthquake will hit L.A. within the next (week, > month, ?). The story concentrates on the politics and sociology > of getting t he city evacuated. It is evacuated. After k days, > no earthquake. Geologists look like fools; everyone unhappy. > City is un-evacuated. Earthquake strikes, millions die. > > I thought I remembered it from Analog, but I've just done a > massive search of the last 10 years and can't find it. I have a > friend who is a geologist but non-sf person to whom I would like > to show it. Your memory is better than your search skills. The story is, I believe (I haven't looked up the issue to check), "Fault" by James Gunn, in the June 1975 issue of ANALOG. [I've sent this directly to the requestor, since he asked to have it done so, but I thought I'd post it here for anyone else who cares to know the answer.] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-s Date: 4 Mar 85 04:27:09 GMT >Five Million Years to Earth is a HORRIBLE film!! It's one of those >schlock things where the scientist sees something inexplicable, >dreams up a ridiculous (i.e. almost totally unsupported by >evidence) explanation for it, and this explanation is taken as fact >for the rest of the movie. Movies like this spread more wrong >ideas about science than creationism! (well, maybe I'm >exaggerating a little...) If it were about the occult it would be >a pseudo-science fiction film. Perhaps it should be called an >anti-science fiction film? In fact, the more I think about this, >the more I like the connection with creationism. The 'science' in >a movie like this is very much like the 'science' in creationism -- >based on nonunderstanding of what science is really about, based on >jumping to conclusions, etc. Got that out of your system? Good! I do hope you are feeling better. I agree that what goes on in this film is not like what real scientists do. But why is that? Roney and Quatermass approach their observations and draw the most likely conclusions. This is very much what scientists do or should do. The reason what they do is in character very different than what your run-of-the-mill scientist is that they are encountering a very different chain of evidence than probably occurs in the real world. You expect that, this is science fiction. And as far as science fiction goes, the chain of evidence is not all that improbable, given the premise. Kneale has only one assumtion in the 1960 TV play on which the film was based. That is basically the same premise of 2001. The premise is that the reason apes evolved into humans was through alien intervention. (The difference with 2001 was in how the idea was handled. Clarke took the idea and said "It's going to happen again." Kneale took the premise and said "How are we different than we would be had we evolved ourselves? What evidence might still be around in the ground and in the human mind that we had been intentionally altered?") Given the evidence I cannot think of any time in the film when Quatermass or Roney jump to a wild conclusion when there is another that is simpler AND more convincing. Faced with the evidence that the only five million year old skeletons found intact were inside a constructed craft there are not a whole lot of simple conclusions to draw. That fact alone is inconsistant with our current understanding of the origins of intelligence. I know the script quite well and I never found a conclusion they drew to seem wild to me. Perhaps you can give an example or too where the reasoning of the characters is wild IN THE LIGHT OF THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED. You do well to compare the premise of this film with creationism. This is a science fiction film whose premise concerns the origin of the species human. Creationism and evolution do also. This film simply plays with a third origin theory. That is what good science fiction does, play with theories. In that way it is like creationism. Where it differs is that it admits to being fiction. It tells the viewer to play with the idea in his/her own mind for the sake of playing with the idea. It does not tell the viewer to believe the idea. I am sure that Nigel Kneale would have nothing but dismay if some cult were to be formed believing the origin theory in FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH. I am a little dismayed by your use of the phrase "If [the film] were about the occult..." Among other things this film certainly is about the occult. It is about a good deal more than that, but one of the things this film concerns is the occult. The occult occurences are (in the context of the film) exaggerated explanations of phenomena caused by the alien ships in their functioning to control the descendents of the altered apes. It is actually a clever idea since there appears to be a lot of reported occurences of occult phenomena over the ages to tie it in with Kneale's premise. That doesn't mean that Kneale really believes in occult phenomena but it nicely unifies two apparently disassociated fields and makes the idea that much more engaging. Oh, and as to whether scientist really do what Quatermass and Roney do, on top of what I have previously said, let me ask you to perform a little experiment for me. Go to the yellow pages, find a private investigator, call him and ask him how similar his work is to what goes on in "Hound of the Baskervilles." Or do you consider this to be another HORRIBLE work of fiction? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Mar 1985 07:23:45-PST From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Roger H. Goun) To: lkaufman@BBNCCM.ARPA Subject: Re: V: What happened to the summaries? I'm the person who volunteered to do the summaries. This was clearly a mistake on my part. > Is it really that bad or did the person doing the summaries find > other things to do with his time? Yes, it's really that bad! I managed to watch the whole first episode and report on it, but halfway through the second I decided that the risk of mind rot was just too great. "V" does for science fiction what "The Dukes of Hazzard" does for rural sociology. (That would make a fine closing comment! ) Roger ARPA: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra, decvax, ihnp4, ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 85 1321-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #86 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 86 Today's Topics: Books - Female Authors (2 msgs) & Group Minds (2 msgs) & Worst SF & Upcoming Releases, Films - Earth II & Testament, Television - Space Patrol & The Time Tunnel & The Prisoner Miscellaneous - Buttons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: orca!ariels@topaz (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF Subject: authors... Date: 27 Feb 85 16:38:09 GMT >> Your friend is missing out on Vonda McIntyre, Ursula LeGuin, Joan >> Vinge, James Tiptree, Jr., Kate Wilhelm, and many other lesser >> known but still good authors. > > You forgot Joanna Russ!!!! And Ellen Kuttner, Marion Zimmer > Bradley, Diane Duane, R.A. MacAvoy, Sylvia Engdahl, Madeleine > L'Engle, Katherine Kurtz, Jane Yolen, Joan Aiken.....Sorry, > I'm getting carried away. > -Ellen You're right. I also forgot Zenna Henderson, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro (try her SF some time, better than St. Germaine, in my opinion), Marta Randall, Suzette Hayden Elgin, Jessica Amamanda Salmonson (ok, so she's more fantasy), Jo Clayton... Ariel ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: female SF authors... (reposting) Date: 2 Mar 85 06:45:02 GMT Chauvinism strikes both ways. I know people who claim that only women write good fantasy these days, and won't read any new fantasy books by male authors. (Given Diane Duane, McKillip, LeGuin, Tanith Lee, etc. we certainly have recently had an explosion of female fantasy writers.) By the way, while we're at it, I'd like to mention Octavia Butler's stuff, particularly PATTERNMASTER, MIND OF MY MIND, THE SURVIVOR. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz Subject: Re: Group mind Date: 1 Mar 85 19:30:27 GMT I vaguely recall a story in which a group mind is formed when a retarded farm hand meets up with a mongoloid child, a child with telekinetic abilities and a pair of telepathic (naked) twins. I may have some of the details wrong, but surely someone remembers the details. I think the story is considered a "classic" - I certainly consider it so. -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!fish@topaz (Bob Fishell) Subject: Re: Group mind Date: 5 Mar 85 00:02:19 GMT I have read a book called "Mindbridge," By Joe Haldeman. It involved a melding of minds via a telepathic alien that physically resembled a wet sponge. It was also one of the worst SF novels I've ever read in my life. Bob Fishell ihnp4!ihlpg!fish ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: WORST SF EVER Date: 1 Mar 85 01:35:03 GMT I am currently preparing to publish "The (Illustrated) Eye of Argon" This story is undoubtedly the worst written piece of heroic fantasy every written, featuring as hero Grignr (a barbarian clad only in a loincloth brandishing a broadsword), a heroine with a lithe opaque nose and firm upstanding busts with sagging nipples, and the Maguffin...a many-fauceted scarlet emerald, the Eye of Argon. Locals may have heard this occasionally read on Hour 25 on KPFK. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: utai!perelgut@topaz (Stephen Perelgut) Subject: Upcoming Books (partial and biased list) Date: 2 Mar 85 04:50:23 GMT The following list of forthcoming books is extracted from LOCUS (The Newspaper of the Science Fiction Field), March 1985. This is a wonderful magazine and very glossy. Any mistakes and omissions are my own and . Please go out and buy a LOCUS to see everything that is happening. This is just a biased summary. Authors have been chosen and ignored by my whim. Comments are my own. TO REIGN IN HELL, Steven Brust (May) I have seen (not read) a limited edition autographed hardcover of this and if it lives up to my expectations, this will be the book of the year. MYTH DIRECTIONS, Robert Asprin (June) FLIGHT OF MAVIN MANYSHAPED, Sheri Tepper (June) TRUMPS OF DOOM, Roger Zelazny (May or later) Another Amber book. Maybe he'll recover after going steadily downhill at a rate of acceleration matched only by Frank Herbert's DUNE series. BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT, VOL.III: POLITICTIAN, Piers Anthony (May) More enjoyable schlock. Maybe we'll have to put up with fewer rapes and murders this time. THE GAME OF EMPIRE, Poul Anderson (May) Apparently featuring Diana Flandry, Dominic's daughter. (By who?) THE PEACE WAR, Vernor Vinge (June) SHADRACH IN THE FURNACE, Robert Silverberg (June) NIGHT OF POWER, Spider Robinson (spring hardcover) BLACK STAR RISING, Frederick Pohl (May hardcover) The cover art printed with the listing looks good (for what it's worth) A PLIOCENE COMPANION, Julian May (May) FOOTFALL, Niven and Pournelle (June hardcover) VENGEANCE OF THE DANCING GODS, Jack L. Chalker (July) REVOLT OF THE GALAXY, Smith and Goldin (May) More schlock to while away the minutes. THE MESSIAH CHOICE, Jack Chalker (May hardcover) DOWNTIME, Cynthia Felice (June hardcover) THE SUBATOMIC MONSTER, Isaac Asimov (August) THE BERSERKER THRONE, Fred Saberhagen (June hardcover/trade) CV, Damon Knight (May hardcover) STITCH IN SNOW, Anne McCaffrey (May hardcover?) DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE, Jack L. Chalker (May) PRETENDER, Piers Anthony and Frances Hall (June) THE POSTMAN, David Brin (November hardcover) [from Bantam/SPECTRA ad] "A ,maor novel of one man's determination to rebuild America from the ashes of a devastating war." $14.95/$16.95 (in Canada) THE UPLIFT WAR, David Brin (December Mass Market) sequel to STARTIDE RISING THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES, OF CITIES, Samuel R. Delany (Dec. hardcover) conclusion to STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN, Harry Harrison (October Mass Market) Origin of "Slipper Jim" THE BOOK OF KELLS, R.A. MacAvoy (August) GILGAMESH THE KING, Robert Silverberg (November Mass Market) POLAR FLEET, Warren Norwood (June) Continuing "THE DOUBLE SPIRAL WAR" THE DARKLING WIND, Somtow Sucharitkul (July) THE CHRISTENING QUEST, Elizabeth Scarborough (August) Latest in the CHRONICLES OF ARGONIA THRESHOLD, David R. Palmer (November) Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute, Univ. of Toronto USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!utcsrgv!utai!perelgut CSNET: perelgut@Toronto ------------------------------ Date: 4 Mar 85 10:36:54 EST From: Donald.Schmitz@CMU-RI-ARM Subject: Earth II Someone claimed Earth II as the movie everyone is searching for with 3 astronauts going into suspended animation on a space station. This was definitely not Earth II. Earth II was a fairly good TV sf film about the crew of, I think, an international space station, disarming a nuclear warhead which the Soviets or Chinese placed in orbit. It appeared a good while ago, early 70's, and if I remember had pretty good effects, though not a very heavy plot. ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (leeper) Subject: Re: TESTAMENT Date: 5 Mar 85 18:45:04 GMT This is a response to a piece of mail. I am posting it to the net partially because my software is complaining about the return address, but also because the content may be of general interest. >Just got your review of 9 Feb. Re: > > "TESTAMENT wasa very well-made film, beautifully > directed with great insights into the > characters. But while those characters > were believable, the situation was not. The > producers failed to do their homework." > >How was the situation not believable? My knowledge of what a post-nuclear war environment is based predominantly on the following: BBC documentary "The War Game" dir. by Peter Watkins Discussions with friends Reading parts of THE FATE OF THE EARTH (I don't remember the author, but it's because of the current interest in nuclear holocausts it is in most book stores.) The fact is that TESTAMENT examined only the radiation effect of the war and for a community within commute distance of San Francisco they way under-rated even that. At the time TESTAMENT was made the concept of nuclear winter had already been established, yet the film did not show the dropping of temperatures. On the contrary, some survivors were headed up to Canada where the cold alone would have been deadly. The breakdown of the social order was shown with one kid stealing a bicycle. With the the big (and many not-so-big) cities gone, there would be no distribution of food. Nothing grown would be safe. The breakdown of social order would start with food hoarding. (Non- and slightly-contaminated food, after all, and guns, would be the most valuable commodities for survival.) Half-starving gangs would be scouring the countryside to find anything to eat. They would roll over the town in TESTAMENT, like it were nothing at all. (I suppose you could accuse me of rattling off Survivalist dogma here. I dislike the Survivalist movement myself, but their view of the post-holocaust world is probably closer to the truth than most people realize.) Then there would be disease. Within a large radius around targets there would be millions dying with nobody to bury them. Disease would run rampant with no real facilities to stop it. The town in TESTAMENT is hardly isolated enough that the disease would not come there. The people on the fringes of the destruction and even the air currents would carry it. Then there are the injured and maimed. The dubious assumption of the film was that this town was far enough from any of the blasts to avoid direct physical injuries. It wouldn't have avoided the walking wounded, it just wasn't that isolated. In any case there is a long list of reasons why things just would not have been as shown in TESTAMENT. A post-nuclear-war is very probably worse than we can imagine, and the town in TESTAMENT was not. Responses to net.movies please. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.leeper) Subject: re: SF show from the fifties Date: 4 Mar 85 23:53:43 GMT >Does the show _Space Patrol_ jog any memories in netland? Not original memories this time, I don't remember watching the series on its original broadcast (1950-1956), though toward the end of its run I might have. I have seen several episodes at science fiction conventions and Night Flight ran some a little while back, I think. This is the sort of series you have to see when you are young, or you can never appreciate it. The series starred Ed Kemmer as Commander Buzz Corey. Kemmer's clean cut look and the association with science fiction apparently got him later roles as science teacher types like the one he played in THE SPIDER. Lyn Osborn played his gee-whiz sidekick Cadet Happy. The stories were pretty minimal but the special effects are interesting to watch considering the lack of technology and low budget. For example, to show a scene underwater, the characters made floating motions with their arms while the camera shot them through a fish tank. His ship was the XRZ. One of my sources quotes the opening as "High adventures in the wild vast regions of space. Missions of daring in the name of interplanetary justice. Travel into the future with Buzz Corey, commander-in-chief of the Space Patrol." And a whole generation grew up thinking that sentence fragments were dramatic! Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 4 Mar 1985 23:40:31-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: THE TIME TUNNEL > From: cord!gwr > this reminds me of something called "Time Tunnel" that I remember > from when I was very young. The description is right but the > timing is wrong; I saw TT in the early sixties. Is this it??? If you saw THE TIME TUNNEL in the early Sixties, you must have been doing a little time travelling yourself. TUNNEL didn't come on the air until 1966. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 05:00 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: Prisoner books etc... When Channel 4 showed the entire series again last year (1984 - cute eh?) after the last episode 'Fallout' they had a rather tricksy programme entitled "in search of the prisoner" or some such in which a presenter surrounded by videos attempted to unravel the "real" meaning of the series. Various people involved with the production appeared. Amongst these was George Markstein the script editor (and also one of the main writers of "Danger Man" as "Secret Agent" was called in the UK). "Of course the prisoner was John Drake" he blithely stated. However, others involved in the production described how McGoohan and Markstein had perpetually been at odds about the format, with Markstein preferring a conventional spy-thriller (he writes them for a living) and McGoohan preferring the sort of thing that The Prisoner actually became. In the first interview McGoohan has ever given about the series one of the first things he said was "Of course No 6 was not John Drake". I know who I prefer to listen to. Incidentally "Six of one" have been going for several years now and run a souvenir shop in No 6's house in Port Meirion where the series was filmed. They also hold annual (I think) conventions there and regular tours of places in the series (e.g. in the program we saw them all running to catch the same bus caught at the end of "Fallout"). I've got a No 6 penny-farthing badge... When the society was first founded they sent details to McGoohan who replied with a telegram saying "Half a dozen of the other". deryk. "Who are you?" "I am the new number 2" "Who is number 1?" "You are number 6" ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Help with button: "The Imp of the Perverse" Date: 05 Mar 85 10:38:43 PST (Tue) From: Jim Hester I wasn't implying that the name was not used in some SF work, just suggesting how the author probably (no pun intended) came up with it. Your belief that it was a personification of Murphey's Law does not refute (in my opinion, it actually supports) this suggestion. If the imp is a personification of Murphey's law, then it seems likely that the author of the story used the term 'imp' in reference to Maxwell's Demon, since this demon IS the personification of Murphey's Law! It is the malicious sentient being on which we lay the blame for an otherwise impersonal law by saying that the demon alters probability in order to bring about possible although improbable misfortunes or calamities. The correspondence between names and occupations is nearly perfect; the only question is whether it was intentional. In addition to being a fun and convenient scapegoat, the demon is a literary device for saying things (particularly bad ones in the case of the demon) do not happen by accident in the universe. I adhere to this philosophy at least as far as puns and allegories in literature go. I assume that an SF author is literate enough to be aware of the demon, and to use the term 'imp' based on that. S/he may have chosen the name out of the blue, but to assume that is to make a negative assumption about the author's writing abilities. I am hesitant to make such an assumption without overwhelming evidence of incompetance. Sorry I couldn't supply the requested pointer, though. Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 85 1352-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #87 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 87 Today's Topics: Books - Bachman & Quality Hardcovers & Computers in SF & Perry Rhodan, Miscellaneous - Aliens in SF (2 msgs) & Boskone 22 (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985 03:04:15-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Richard Bachman > From: Randall B. Neff > [this just shows that the salability of a book is the name of the > author, not the quality of the book. If King was famous for the > quality of his writing, then the five Bachman books should have > made Bachman also famous.] There's a faulty piece of reasoning there. While it's true to a degree that a books salability has more to do with the author's name than the book itself, it mostly has to do with the publisher's promotion of the book. Contrary to popular belief, "best-sellers" are made, not born. If you look at trade journals, you will notice that many, if not most, publishers treat "best-seller" as a distinct genre. They say, "We're going to market this as a best-seller," with impunity, as if the sales of the book had been pre-determined. That the Richard Bachman novels didn't sell like hot cakes, like Stephen King novels do, it's because NAL didn't promote them as anything special, they didn't have especially large print-runs, and basically, no one knew they existed. If NAL promoted Richard Bachman the way they promote Stephen King, Bachman might well have been famous. And if this happened, the cover would have been blown long before now; "Bachman" could never have been in the limelight like King is without ever showing himself. The name of the author sells the book, but it's the quality of the book that gives the author his reputation. If King's books were all turkeys, no one would be buying them regardless of how they are promoted. Well, OK, many best-sellers *are* turkeys, but what I mean is, if King's first three books really bombed, no one would want to read the later ones. Plus, with the exception of THINNER, the Bachman books were all paperback originals, which are generally ignored by the reviewers. Secondly, it's not strictly true that it's an author's name that sells books. It's his *reputation* that does it. Is this unusual? After so many very good novels, Stephen King has the reputation of turning out well-written, spine-tingling chillers. Anyone going into a bookstore and seeing THINNER by Richard Bachman sitting next to THE TALISMAN by Stephen King and Peter Straub is most likely going to choose the latter, because he feels sure that he's going to enjoy it, knowing how good the previous books by those two are. As for the former, he's likely to say, "Who the hell is Richard Bachman?" and will not be sure that he's going to find the investment worthwhile. But when folks find out that Bachman is actually King, then the chances that they are going to enjoy THINNER dramatically increase because of King's reputation for turning out a good, scary novel. Tell me, if you went into a store and saw a new novel by Robert Heinlein and a new novel by Anson McDonald [this is presuming that: (a) you are a Heinlein fan and, (b) you are not already aware that Heinlein has written stories under the McDonald by-line], which would you pick? If you pick the Heinlein, why? Is it because of the name? And then what if you had heard that Anson McDonald was actually Robert Heinlein? Would you go right back to the store to pick up that McDonald book? The other thing to remember is that the mainstream world is not like the sf world. We (sf fandom) are a tightly knit group, and book and author recommendations travel around pretty quickly, so a really good book by an unknown author is going to get more attention than a similar book in the mainstream world. There's no network like it in the mainstream market and so the authors are completely at the mercy of reviewers and their publisher's publicity department. If no one knows your book exists, it doesn't matter *how* good it is. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1985 09:53 EST From: Dean Sutherland Subject: Quality Hardcovers I am very interested in quality hardcovers. Can anyone send me a list of addresses (and mail order policies) of sources for same. I am particularly interested in books with acid free paper/ink. Dean F. Sutherland (Sutherland@TL-20B.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 85 12:53:04 EST From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Computer SF - short novel "Mouthpiece", by Edward Wellen. It involves a grad student's project to decipher the last-word ramblings of a Dutch Schultz analog. (For those not up on their history of Crime, Dutch was a Prohibition-era gangster, hitman for top crime bosses. Dutch was shot one day by party or parties unknown. As he lay dying, a policeman tried to get him to name his killer(s). Dutch responded with "ravings", or so the policeman thought. Others have since tried to make sense of the Dutchman's last words, including Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea, in _Illuminatus!_) Getting back to the story, this student designs a database filled with the last words of gangster "Kraut Schwartz", some entries from the New York Times Index for the period, and some Freudian psychoanalysis. When he runs it through the computer, an AI version of "Kraut" is created. The story itself involves deciphering the "ravings", which are really a code leading to a hidden treasure of robbery loot. It's a pretty typical "computer menace" story, except for the decipherment. I have it in _The_13_Crimes_of_Science_Fiction_ (Doubleday, 1979), edited by Asimov, Martin Harry Greenberg, and Charles G. Waugh. It also appeared in F&SF, c. 1974. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985 03:30:27-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Perry Rhodan > From: > Earlier this month, pduff inquired about the hero of the universe, > Perry Rhodan. I'd like to submit my own questions on this matter. > > Are many of the books in the series independent of the German > stories (novellettes or novellas)? Nope. All of the books that appeared in the US are translations of the original German stories. > How do the translated texts compare? Don't know. I couldn't stomach my way through them. I have a dozen or so German originals, but I've never had the time to try to read them; Ich spreche ein bisschen Deutsch, but not fluently enough to be able to breeze through the Rhodans. I'm sure that they aren't worth the time and effort required, if the English translations are anything to go by. > How popular was Perry Rhodan outside of Germany? If you can believe the hype, Rhodan is very popular throughout Europe. It was certainly popular enough in the US to go well over a hundred books. The only other paperback series that I can think of that have gone that long are the Doc Savage and Nick Carter series (Nick Carter is almost up to 200). > Is the series still popular in Germany? As far as I know. They're still publishing. And on a weekly basis. It's my guess that they're rapidly approaching 1200 issues by now. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Sun 3 Mar 85 10:44:18-PST From: Bill Subject: favorite aliens I loved Dua, Tritt and Odeen in Asimov's *The Gods Themselves.* Bill ------------------------------ From: andrews@yale.ARPA (Thomas O. Andrews) Subject: Re: favorite alien Date: 4 Mar 85 18:39:24 GMT My favorite alien has got to be the ocean of Solaris, in Stanislaw Lem's novel of the same name. The book is an excellent commentary on the field of science fiction, marked by Lem's wit and realistic approach to alien life. Lem seems to be saying to other science fiction authors, "If there is intelligent life elsewhere, it sure as hell won't be able to communcicate with us." This also seems to be one of the themes of his book, _His Masters Voice_. Any other Lem fans out there? Thomas Andrews ------------------------------ From: panda!mjn@topaz (Mark J. Norton) Subject: Re: Boskone 22 Date: 28 Feb 85 15:51:37 GMT In reply to both Elizabeth and Dan Davidson: You are no doubt aware that there are several members of NESFA on USENET, myself included. Stating from the outset that it is quite clear that NESFA is not perfect, I will address some of the things stated previously. Running a Con Year after Year: Based on several things both of you said it is fairly clear that you have not helped to run or organize a convention. See that little 22 after the Boskone in the subject line above? It means that NESFA has been trying to put out a good convention for 22 years. Don't you thing that it might be a little tough to be original and different year after year? You also mentioned being jaded with program material. That happens, but I think difference lies in your change attitudes and perceptions, rather than quality of programming slipping. I've become very tired of listening to the same old panels every year. As a result, I don't attend them anymore. On the other hand, I appreciate the Boskone Art Show more with each passing year. A con is what you make of it. Work at it some. Resistration Fee (How can they be so greedy?): Both you and Dan mention $22 being steep for registration. How many other conventions do you attend. I'm not talking about Star Trek cons in Portland, Maine, but big regionals: Disclave, Westercon, Maplecon, etc. I think you'd find that they run about the same or more for the weekend. (This doesn't even come close to $50 for a worldcon!) Were does all the money go? You might be surprised at some of the costs involved in running a big con. Rentals, printing, flying in GOH, postal rates (hmm, 22c), rooms to get, etc, etc. NESFA is a non-profit organization. The budget for Boskone every year is designed to break even. Each year an estimate is made of how many people will attend the convention. This times the con rate is how much money can be budgeted. Now when we come down to it, if this year's con attracts a lot of people, the convention makes a profit. On the other hand, if fewer than predicted show up, it looses money. NESFA has been concerned about the later for years. Part of the profits (if any) from previous cons goes towards an insurance fund to help bail out the eventual Big Money Loser. Weekend vs Daily Rates: This has been a topic of discussion for years in NESFA. It usually comes down to this: its too much work to try and organize and check for one day badges. Consider: four different kinds of badges are needed. One for each day of the con, and one for the whole weekend. Stamps stickers, etc are too small and have been shown to not work well. Thus, as unfortunate as it is for some people, one rate is charged. In the past, this has been moderated somewhat. If by Sunday, membership in the con is a little below predicted numbers, a discount might be offered for just Sunday. By then, no special badges are needed. In recent years, however, not enough people isn't the problem, its too many people. Keeping out the Riff Raff: Boskone as a convention is set up and organized by about 30 people. These same people are responsible for there being anything at all, much less living up to the quality we see year after year. At the con, however, these people are only managers. The people who REALLY run the con are fans. Volunteers, hundreds of them. If it weren't for these people who give up a little piece of the con (which they paid for), it would fail miserably. Thus we come to it. NESFA cannot handle well a convention where too many people attend. Volunteers do not seem to increase linearly with the number of attendees. More people means more disorganization. The facilites are arranged for optimal numbers. More people cause breakdowns in flow, control, and timing. For the past several years NESFA has been trying various ways to keep the number of people attending a Boskone to a reasonable number. They truly want to keep the quality high and that means keep the numbers small. One way to cut numbers is to not have daily rates. Its some what unfortunately that this cuts out people who cannot afford full weekend rates, but it helps. Another method tried is altering content of the film program. Since Star Trek and other big media productions have their own specialty cons, they have been removed from Boskones. In a sense, as soon as you try to exclude people to keep numbers from getting too large, discrimination enters. NESFA has been trying very hard to handle this in the most reasonable way possible. One other thing to remember here. The members of NESFA who put on a Boskone are volunteers too. They are doing their best to organize something for your enjoyment. If you have a criticism or suggestion, tell them. They will listen. There was even two items on the program for fan feedback. Did you attend? NESFA's Clubhouse Search: In closing, I'd like to say a few things about NESFA search for a clubhouse. It is true that we are looking for one. Priced a house lately? Commerical space of the size NESFA needs runs even more. Its a lot harder to find a building which suits the requirements too. The search has been going on actively for almost 2 years. We came very close recently (money was put down), but the deal fell through from the seller's side. It was quite disappointing. Where does the money for such an acquisition come from? Money for the NESFA clubhouse is being gathered from donations to a building fund and a realty trust fund. Donations (and proceeds from auctions, etc) have come to about 12K. Add in sale of bonds (mostly to members) and the total comes to about 60K. Wait a minute! What about all those profits from Boskone?!? As far as I know, none of the money generated by previous Boskones is put into the building fund. NONE! Profits (what there is) does go towards operating expenses of NESFA. Some of it goes towards purchase of equipment to run future Boskones and some of it is donated to SF related causes (TAFF, club membership in worldcon, Reading for the Blind, etc.) Where is all of this NESFA greed of which you speak? Mark J. Norton decvax!genrad!{panda | teddy}!mjn ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 85 20:56 EST (Sun) From: Marla (Selinger@Ru-Blue) Subject: Boskone "Boskone 22...had more people than they wanted...2300." "What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a uniform $22.00: greed." At last year's Boskone, I had heard that NESFA was charging everyone the full price admission (regardless of 1 or 3 days) *with the intent* of trying to keep the number of con-goers down. Not the best way of trying to limit numbers, I must admit; but last year's con did have too many people there for the size of the hotel. I suspect it will take a few years for Boskone to find a hotel with the proper size and karma for a permanent site. The Copley Marriot did not seem very thrilled to have us there. "I also was informed several times that the lousy film/video schedule was deliberate, because they didn't want riff-raff (no not him!) off the streets coming in just to see the movies." Hmm, I had thought the quality of this year's schedule was far below last year's. If true, this reason is inexcusable. That's what BADGES are for! To keep the riff-raff out, or at least to get $22 out of him first! Well, I'll give them one more try next year... Marla ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Mar 85 1426-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #88 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 88 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Chalker & Shetterly & Stasheff & Vinge, Films - The Forbin Project & Metropolis & Threads & Star Trek, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Boskone 22 (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: othervax!psal@topaz Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 4 Mar 85 16:34:48 GMT As an old Piers addict, I note that no-one has mentioned his 'cave' books, "CTHON" and "PTHOR", nor "HASSAN", an attempt to emulate the style of "The Arabian Nights." I also agree that his earlier work was much better; we weren't required to repeatedly share the slow and delayed adolescence of some feeble-minded person going through thier pimply period in public. "SOS THE ROPE", origionaly serialized in F&SF, won him his first hugo, and I agree that he hasn't done anything to match "MACROSCOPE." One keeps hoping, though. -C.Thomas Weinbaum von Waldenhal ------------------------------ From: amdimage!cmoore@topaz (chris moore) Subject: Re: Chalker Date: 4 Mar 85 22:16:55 GMT >> From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA >> What does anyone know about Jack Chalker's work? I have read the >> "Well of Souls" stuff, but I saw the "Soul Rider" series and >> another series (something about Dancing?) in the bookstore >> yesterday, and I am curious if they are any good. > > Not all of Jack Chalker's work is as good as the Well of Souls > series, but he has written some nice things. Other than the Soul > Rider series and any new, new books, there are: > > [ list of books here] > Muffy I have been a fan of Chalker's for a long time. I think I've read all of his available works - at least, I've read all that I've been able to find, including all those on Muffy's list and maybe a few others. I'll have to look through my collection when I get home and see if there are any I could add to the list. The only book/series I thought was less interesting than the rest was the Four Lords of the Diamond series. By the time I got to the fourth, I had pretty much lost interest, but I finished them just to see how they came out. I've read the Well of Souls series several times, and I think it's his best (especially the first book - Midnight at the Well of Souls). The Web of the Cozen was also very good, particularly because of the somewhat unusual ending. (For those who haven't read it, I won't spoil it ) Chris Moore (408) 749-4692 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!amdimage!cmoore ------------------------------ From: chabot%amber.DEC@topaz (L S Chabot) Subject: new book by Shetterly Date: 6 Mar 85 02:52:41 GMT At last able to put down _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ by Will * Shetterly, I can now recommend it (it's hard to type and read at the same time). It's new from Ace Fantasy (let's see, "April 1985"). This is good, fun fantasy, written with wit and charm. I particularly like this kind of telling, where things are only explained as long as you keep running as fast as you can with the characters, and this isn't easy since not all of them are heading the same direction, and then you only find out when they find out the same themselves (and you won't get any help/spoilers from me!). No mention in the author's biography, included at the end of the book, is made of Florida. * "All Cats Are Scum" L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: orca!ariels@topaz (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: Stasheff Date: 5 Mar 85 16:50:22 GMT > Oh, I noticed that no one had mentioned "Escape Velocity" in > connection with Stasheff or the Warlock books. This is the book > which tells of the origins of the planet on which the warlock > finds himself. Not really. In fact, the reference it makes to the origins of that planet (Ganymede?) seemed to me to be a bit of a sop to the publishers. "See if you can tie in the other stuff. It'll help the book sell." "Escape Velocity" stands very well on its own, without leaning too heavily on the Warlock stuff. It DOES record the adventures of the Warlock's ancestors (a couple of greats-grandfather). And, of course, ... But that might spoil it... Find this book and read it if you enjoyed other Stasheff stuff. It's worth it. Ariel Shattan ..!tekronix!orca!ariels ------------------------------ From: ames!bub@topaz (Bubbette McLeod) Subject: Snow Queen sequel? Date: 4 Mar 85 19:44:11 GMT Has anyone read the sequel to Joan D. Vinge's Snow Queen? I believe it's called World's End. I've seen it in the bookstores and was curious about it. Bub {allegra,dual,hao,hplabs,ihnp4}!ames!bub ------------------------------ Date: 5 Mar 85 10:09:08 PST (Tuesday) Subject: The Forbin Project From: Couse.osbunorth@XEROX.ARPA Glad that somebody finally mentioned "Colossus, the Forbin Project." This film, which was released originally as just "The Forbin Project" didn't do well in the theaters, primarily because the movie going public couldn't seem to relate to computers in 1971 (when the movie was made) like they would now. The movie was relatively low-key, without any shoot-'em-ups or other flashy gimmicks and was received well by everybody I knew who knew anything about computers. Trivia Note: The exterior shots were filmed at the Lawrence Hall of Science on the University of California Berkeley campus. The opening shot where the helicopter flew down over the top of a building and landed in front of LHoS had to be shot more than once because everybody in the Space Sciences Lab (the building they flew over and down in front of) was staring out the windows on the first shot. Both building are located on the hill behind the campus with a sweeping view of the Bay. /Mary ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz Subject: re: METROPOLIS Date: 5 Mar 85 08:20:30 GMT > From: ttidcc!hollombe (Jerry Hollombe) > ...how many people are aware that _Metropolis_ wasn't written by > Fritz Lang? One of my pet peeves is everyone referring to it as > "Fritz Lang's _Metropolis_" when the original novel was actually > written by Thea von Harbou. It's called "Fritz Lang's METROPOLIS" to distinguish it from Thea von Harbou's METROPOLIS. Von Harbou's is the novel, Lang's is the film. The same is done with "Alfred Hitchcock's PYSCHO" (film) vs. "Robert Bloch's PSYCHO" (novel), "Stanley Kubrick's 2001" (film) vs. "Arthur C. Clarke's 2001" (novel), "Stanley Kubrick's THE SHINING" (film) vs. Stephen King's THE SHINING" (novel), etc. Von Harbou may have written the novel upon which it's based, but Lang brought it to the screen. Besides, Lang *did* co-write the screenplay for METROPOLIS with von Harbou. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz (Brad Templeton) Subject: Nuclear War films - THREADS Date: 6 Mar 85 05:00:00 GMT For those who though the "Day After" and "Testament" were bad, you should see the English-produced "THREADS". The reviewers say that THREADS makes the Day After look like a romp through the daisies, and while it's not quite that bad, they are close. This film deals a fair deal with the buildup to the war, at the expense of the soap-opera style buildup they had in The Day After. Nonetheless, you can still gain some sympathy for these people as all but one of them die miserably. They have it all. One EMP-burst over the north sea. The next hour a ground burst at a military target 30 miles away. And the next day a destroy-industry air burst right over Sheffield, England, the site of the film. After, you get firestorms, the wounded, fallout, radiation sickness, and even a bit of nuclear winter, which they note England feels less of because it is surrounded by the sea. The gangs of looters, the martial law and finally the law of the jungle. Finally you see a battered land, with a population reduced to the level of the Middle Ages. Stillbirth and mutation are discussed. One interesting note. Their war starts in Iran with a short two-weapon tactical exchange. One month beforehand, a press blackout covers Iran, which is a reasonable depiction of the situation. And thus the public doesn't actually learn of the use of nukes until several days afterwards, when scientists not shut up by the government announce evidence like increased radioactivity in certain wind patterns. The idea that nukes might be used in battle and I might not know about it scares me... In contrast, Testament was not a film about nuclear war. It was a film about a town's death from radiation poisoning. It could just has easily have been plague or any other toxin. They wanted to focus on the human drama surrounding the deaths, and they did that well, but they did not provide a reasonable depiction of a nuclear war. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ From: dolqci!mike@topaz (Mike Stalnaker) Subject: Re: another st4 plot??? Date: 6 Mar 85 14:39:39 GMT > From: rcodyer%bailey.DEC@decwrl.ARPA > The latest is an all-out war between the Federation and the > Klingons, I assume over the Genesis project Only one major problem; the Organians wouldn't allow it. I recently posted the contents of a treatment and comments from George (Sulu) Takei to net.startrek. as far as I can tell, these are fairly accurate. When STIII:TSFS came out, I had seen the treatment from the same source as this one, and the only major changes were that the original treatment I saw used the Romulans instead of the Klingons I should have more solid information in around a month or two....... Mike Stalnaker UUCP:{decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike AT&T:202-376-2593 USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213 McCoy: "Shaddup Spock! We're Rescuing you!" Spock: "Why thank you, 'Captain McCoy'" ------------------------------ From: ISM780!patrick@topaz Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 5 Mar 85 06:59:01 GMT I can't say I'll miss Dr. Who much as I always considered it tacky and silly in the extreme after I passed the age of 12 (outraged flames by personal mail, please), but I thought I'd add some speculation and some historical background: As someone recently pointed out, Dr. Who is a BBC (non-commercial) as opposed to ITV (commercial) production. Many of us Brits still can't abide to watch TV that has advertisements in it. Anyway, one of the leading businessmen behind commercial TV in England is Lew Grade (now Sir Lew Grade). I forget who said it, but when Parliament was first debating the introduction of commercial TV, one MP objected that to grant a commercial TV license was to grant a 'license to print money'. Sure enough, Lew Grade and a handful of others became multi-millionaires, and just as inevitably, were granted "Honours" by the Queen (in reality, by the Prime Minister of the day). This despite the critism from middle- class intellectuals that they were producing shoddy rubbish which pandered to the lowest in public taste. In consequence of his ITV programming Lew Grade acquired the nickname "Low Greed". I suspect that Anthony is a member of the family. God help the BBC if these guys are now in charge. I suppose this really belongs in net.politics, but to get back to the point, can commercial television (or even the BBC) ever produce *good* science fiction (as opposed to tacky stuff we accept because it's all we can get)? Let's leave Star Trek and Dr. Who out of the discussion. What else is there? Patrick Curran Interactive Systems Corp. ...ihnp4!ima!ism780!patrick ------------------------------ From: lzmi!psc@topaz (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set on Subject: broil) Date: 4 Mar 85 00:26:23 GMT Jeez. Twenty-two whole dollars? I admit, I would like to see one-day memberships priced appropriately. I'd also like to see a $60 dollar Macintosh (I've had this dream two nights now). I don't see anything wrong in raising money for the clubhouse. (As for the 1980 surplus, some of it was sent down to Baltimore, to keep Constellation from bankrupcy.) Video program: I can't believe it was busted deliberately. I can't believe it was busted so *badly*. . . . Programming: excellent. Hotel: The Marriot seemed to think they were too Ritzy for fans, or even mundanes. (BTW, that's a *pun*, folk.) I didn't have any trouble getting lunch on Friday, dressed in jeans, T-shirt, and denim jacket, and I hear they eased off as the weekend went on. My flame is about the security guy who, after the Sat 5AM fire alarm, told me I couldn't wait in the lobby (I was looking for my eleven-year-old, who turned out to be back in the room). I enlightened the security idiot in a quiet, polite tone without any even slightly offensive language. (And jumped up so fast, reliable witnesses thought I was going to punch him out.) Punday: Why can't it start at eight, instead of nine? *Long*. I was astounded that the guy who took third place got that far, though second and first place were earned. To last year's winner and this year's fourth place Richard Hill, better luck next time; you were right, a quick 5 is better than a slow 7. To non-entrant Richard Stallman: next year, ENTER! Finally: I believe Mark Ol$son (next year's chair) is on the net somewhere, if you have constructive criticism. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry) Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set on Subject: broil) Date: 4 Mar 85 15:59:12 GMT Don't feel too badly about security. We, too, had a bad experience with some of the "boys in brown". Three of us, (two karate instructors and a student) were sitting by a door. A security "officer" informed us that we were sitting near a fire door and "move. Now". As we got up to move, I looked at the door and commented that fire doors should be marked as such so people wouldn't sit near them. Mr. Security then said, "Move your asses now or I'm going to start some trouble", as he was punching his hand. Hmmm. At this point I ceased wondering why fans were commenting that the hotel really didn't want us there. Being good Boskoners, we didn't beat the guy up, but left, hoping NESFA would either change hotels next year, or ask the Marriott to weed out street punks from their security staff. ------------------------------ From: ahutb!ecl@topaz (e.leeper) Subject: Re: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution: flamethrower set on Subject: broil) Date: 4 Mar 85 15:11:33 GMT My only major complaint was with the hotel/con interface. Saturday night there was a member of the Con Committee (well, he had the badge anyway) asking to see room keys before letting anyone onto the express elevators (to the 23rd and up floors). This was to prevent them from being clogged with people who would ride up to 23 and walk down to their floor (say 18) because that was faster than waiting for a regular elevator. When I got back to my room (after refusing to show my room key to this person), I called Hotel Security, who knew nothing about this. I complained (and they agreed) that hotel occupants should not be expected to show their room keys (and numbers) to anyone except hotel security staff. What the final resolution of this was I don't know. Evelyn C. Leeper Note temporary kluge for new address => ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ahutb!ecl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Mar 85 1311-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #89 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 89 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner (3 msgs) & Herbert (3 msgs), Films - Five Million Years to Earth & Testament & THX 1138 & Earth II, Television - Dr. Who & The People ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1985 10:46:22 EST From: Subject: John Brunner "The Sheep Look Up" is actually the third in a trio of books by English author John Brunner. [Yes, he really is English -- his business card, which I have in front of me, lists his address as being in South Petherton, Co. Somerset...]. All three of the books use the same stylistic technique, in which several intersecting stories, each told from a first-person perspective, are used as the dominant strands in an assemblage of narrative techniques which provide a cultural and social context for the ongoing stories. This method of writing is used in all three novels: "Stand on Zanzibar" (1968; Hugo, 1968; British SF Award, 1970; Prix Apollo [in translation], 1973), "The Jagged Orbit" (1969, British SF Award, 1971), and "The Sheep Look Up". The technique used in writing these books is *not* new to Brunner. In a discussion with him at ConStellation, he confirmed my suspicion that he was consciously emulating the work of American novelist John dos Passos, whose "U.S.A." trilogy (1930-36) uses similar techniques. The two trilogies are also similar in that they take extremely dystopian views of the current and future scenes. "Stand on Zanzibar", by the way, should be added to the list of books which deal with artificial intelligence, as one of the critical viewpoint characters is the computer Shalmaneser, who becomes self-aware in mid-novel. (Curiously, despite the number of awards this book won, it was totally ignored by most of the academics writing about computers in sf.) ------------------------------ From: ISM780!patrick@topaz Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 5 Mar 85 06:56:43 GMT Hey - another Brunner freak, and at ISC too... Stand on Zanzibar was (I believe) written before The Sheep Look Up, and you're right, neither book is a sequel to the other. SOZ is my favourite SF book of all time; I've read it a dozen times, and owned several copies (I lend them to people saying "you must read this", and never see them again). For years now I've been haunting the bookstores looking for the latest Brunner. He seems to write two sorts of books - quickie pot-boilers of no particular interest, and long thoughtful books which (until the latest one) I loved. In addition to the two mentioned above, try "The Jagged Orbit" - a scary story about paranoia and the arms-manufacturers who encourage and feed off it, and "The Shockwave Rider" - about computer networks, and a guy who lives outside the law by manufacturing "electronic personalities" for himself. There's also an early book of his called "The Squares of the City", which is the only SF book I know about town/traffic planning (I used to hang out with a bunch of people in this profession - the book is realistic), Latin America, and the game of chess (!). I must admit that there's a touch of formula-writing about these books; there's always a super-smart super-unconventional sociologist-type who knows all the answers to everything, but nevertheless, if you like your SF sociological as opposed to high-tech or fantastic, then you'll enjoy these books. (One reason they appeal to me is that I used to be a sociologist.) Each book tends to take a social trend which currently worries 'concerned individuals' (Stand on Zanzibar - population; Sheep Look Up - pollution; Jagged Orbit - arms and 'security'; Shockwave Rider - computerization) and extrapolates it into the near future. BUT... recently he released his latest 'big book' (The Crucible of Time - I've seen mention of it here before). I snatched it up as soon as I saw it, and still, several months later, haven't finished it. It's a complete change of style for him, and I'm sorry to say I found it very boring. I only hope that when the next one is published (the interval is ususally about two years) he reverts to the 'social' as opposed to 'scientific' speculation I like so much. Anyone else like this kind of stuff? Patrick Curran Interactive Systems Corp. ...ihnp4!ima!ism780!patrick ------------------------------ From: ISM780!chris@topaz Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 6 Mar 85 05:24:15 GMT The Crudcible of Time is the only Brunner book i've ever not finished. I usually read them in one big gulp, or two large bites. I worked on TCOT for about two weeks, and gave it back to the library. I hope it doesn't start a trend. chris devax!vortex!ism780!chris ------------------------------ From: abnji!nyssa@topaz (nyssa of traken) Subject: Re: DUNE books Date: 5 Mar 85 17:07:52 GMT "Heretics of Dune" should be out in paperback shortly. There is a sixth book in the works, I forget the title. James C Armstrong, Jnr. { ihnp4 || allegra || mcnc || cbosgb } !abnji!jca ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz (Herb Chong [DCS]) Subject: Re: DUNE books Date: 6 Mar 85 00:00:45 GMT chandave@ncoast.UUCP (Davy Chan) writes: > Does anyone have some information on any books after the fourth >DUNE book entitled "God Emperor of Dune". I just read through all >four books and am breaking out in hives waiting to see how the next >one will be. heretics of dune came out last year. you will want to get it if you simply MUST have all the dune books. as far as a book goes, it's neither here nor there. so why did i buy the hardcover edition? good question. it wasn't really worth it. Herb Chong... I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 85 18:21 EST (Wed) From: Mijjil Cc: ncoast!chandave@topaz Subject: DUNE books The fifth DUNE book is called "HERETICS OF DUNE" and has been out since early 1984 in hardcover. I don't think it is in trade or regular paperback just yet. There is, believe it or not, a 6th volume coming out this spring, called "CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE". This one (#6) is supposed going to finally END the "DUNE saga". (This has been said before!) In closing I include my favourite quote of Frank Herbert: "I'm still against the idea of sequels in principle, because it's like watering down your wine all the time until you're left with just water." Frank Herbert, author of DUNE DUNE MESSIAH CHILDREN OF DUNE GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE HERETICS OF DUNE and CHAPTERHOUSE:DUNE {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 85 13:19 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Five Million Years to Earth In response to Mark Leeper's response to my response about FMYTE: Like I said the first time, I thought Five Million Years to Earth had an interesting premise. The attempt to explain occult phenomena in scientific terms is something I enjoy (see last paragraph). But I can think of a several films that were more thought provoking, such as 2001, 1984 (the new version), Bladerunner etc. Its a matter of taste, like you say, and this film left a sour one in my mouth. It came off as cheap sixties pseudo-scientific occult. And yes, Horror. Scientist finds strange thing that threatens all of mankind, and promptly figures it out and destroys it. Sometimes the scientist dies, sometimes not. No, there weren't any mass-murders. Nothing came out of the shadows to strangle young maidens. But it fits nonetheless. Ah, Andromeda Strain. Now there's a movie I really liked. It had a horror element, yes. But, it was predominantly SF. Most importantly, it was well constructed, well written, well acted, and it had a very interesting premise. If that doesn't qualify it, I don't know what does. My criteria for 'best' are: a good story well told. The 'well told' part is very important to me. If the quality of production, acting, etc. does not aid in my suspension of disbelief, then it may detract from the film. For instance, I felt that 2001 was a good story well told. 2010 ("lets watch Roy Scheider sweat") was a good book, but the movie was not as well done. (I liked this movie, but I wouldn't call it 'best'.) Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan was excellent, Star Trek I: TMP ("Lets watch what the special effects crew can do") was not. Superman I and II were good stories, but what I really enjoyed was the 'well told' part. Superman III: The Richard Pryor Show was awful. Bladerunner was excellent in all respects. A little shift to fantasy: Conan I was very well made, and was even a good story. Wizards : excellent in both story and production. Bakshi's Tolkein stuff was a good story that was hacked to little bits. Raiders of the Lost Arc fits both. Indy Jones and the Temple of Spooky Stuff was horrible in both aspects. I hope that these examples show what my criteria are for good and bad SF films. Five Million Years to Earth was an fair story with a interesting premise. I felt that it wasn't made very well. Mediocre acting, weak cinematography, poor directing, etc., etc. It misses both marks. BTW, if you want to read a book that puts a very similar premise forward, read The Twelfth Planet by an author I don't remember. The author explains the Gods of ancient Sumerian and Biblical myth as travellers from the twelfth planet, a planet with a very eccentric orbit, who genetically engineer humans from premen (Neanderthal or whatever) and themselves to be used as slaves. He uses historical references to back himself up. Mostly the Bible and other Hebrew, Sumerian, and Babylonian texts. I think astrology and other occult things get tied in here somehow. Brett Slocum (I know this was a little long, but at least I didn't include all of the previous messages in little arrow brackets. I try to use those arrows sparingly.) ------------------------------ From: lcuxc!kenw@topaz (K Wolman) Subject: Re: TESTAMENT Date: 6 Mar 85 16:00:59 GMT At some "realistic" level, "Testament" may indeed have underestimated the prolonged horrors of a nuclear war aftermath in ways "Threads" did not. But the death of the mother's (Jane Alexander's) little boy (remember the scene at the sink?) and her almost maniacal search for his teddy-bear told me more than I ever wanted to know about a particular part of that horror. The deaths that follow seem to have a lessening impact until, by the end of the film, the viewer is damned near numb. This could be a flaw, or a far-too-successful realization of what used to be considred a "fallacy," i.e., Imitative Form. Ken Wolman Bell Communications Research @ Livingston, NJ lcuxc!kenw ------------------------------ From: udenva!zmh10@topaz (zmh10) Subject: Re: Best SF <[DFilm Date: 5 Mar 85 21:40:33 GMT > From: Julian R. Long > On the subject of Best SF film . Has any one seen a film called > UBX 11.. i can't remember the whole title . The title is THX 1138. The first film by everyone's pal George Lucas. The phrase THX 1138 shows up as Harrison Ford's license plate in American Graffiti and as a serial number in Star Wars Also, THX is the name of Lucasfilm's new sound system. Neat, hunh? Steve Howard. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 10:22 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Earth II In regards to Earth II, I thought that this was a movie starring Gary Lockwood (??) about an astronaut that crash lands on the duplicate of Earth that orbits the sun directly opposite Earth. The government is very repressive and is trying to capture him because they know he's from outside, and they are afraid he will start trouble. He escapes to some sort of underground organization and does start trouble. I don't remember a lot of the details, but I remember that at the end he washes up on a beach, and the bad guys think he is dead. This may or may not be Earth II. Please clarify. I remember the movie mentioned, about the space station that disarms a Chinese nuclear warhead. I don't know what it was called. Alzheimer's Disease strikes again. - Brett Slocum ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Mar 85 15:28 EST From: Mark F Rand Subject:  After 21 years of Dr. Who (of which I have only seen 2 yrs.) they can't (and shouldn't) stop (or even pause) production!!!! Especially since The DR. still has a very large audience. The only Dr. Who's that I have seen so far are Baker,Davidson, and Pertwee (in that order). The two networks that show Dr. Who here(that I can pick up) have finished the Davidson series, and now one is showing Pertwee and the other is going back to the start of Tom Baker. I wish they'd show the earlier Dr.s also.. I would like to find out just how the Dr. started his adventures.. I once saw a movie that had Dr. Who and the Daleks, but it said nothing of Timelords or Galifrey.. The Tardis in the movie was made by the Dr.'s experimentation... In one part of the movie he looses a vital part of the Tardis mechanism and must recover it.. I seem to remember the leading character(Dr.) looking like the pictures of the first Dr. I've seen during the series("The 5 Doctors") Was this the beginning of Dr. Who??? See ya Mark Rand Acknowledge-To: Mark F Rand ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 6 Mar 1985 03:14:45-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: THE PEOPLE > From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford (Jeff Rogers) > Does anyone remember a made for TV movie that was adapted > from Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE and entitled, succinctly, "The > People"? > > I saw this movie when I was quite young, must have been > gradeschool or junior high, and I remember it as being wonderful. > Yet it's been so long, I'm wondering whether I've got it correct. > Was it really based on PILGRIMAGE or were there just similarities? > I also can't remember a single actor in it. Thanks for any help. You're not imagining things. THE PEOPLE was a made-for-tv movie, shown on ABC back in 1971. The screenplay was by James M. Miller, and it was indeed based on Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE: THE BOOK OF THE PEOPLE. The director was John Korty, and the executive producer was, believe it or not, Francis Ford Coppola. I'm surprised that you don't remember any of the cast, considering that the star of the movie was William Shatner. Two other "name" actors in the cast were Dan O'Herlihy and Kim Darby. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Mar 85 1335-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #90 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 90 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin (2 msgs) & Bischoff & Robinson & Vinge & Computers in SF & Group Minds, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Boskone 22 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Mar 1985 1958 PST From: Alvin Wong Subject: Dave Lampe's question on Asprin quote This is to answer Dave Lampe's question of the meaning of Asprin's quote in one of his books : Don't be fooled by appearances. Malloy John T. Molloy (not Malloy) wrote a book called "Dress for Success". It was an artifact of the mid 70s. The gist of the book is that appearances do count and will affect your professional success significantly regardless of personal competency. I believe the above is derived from this. ------------------------------ From: ukma!red@topaz (Red Varth) Subject: Re: Asprin's Mythical Books Date: 7 Mar 85 01:54:50 GMT Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk! I never did like the cover art on the "Thieves' World" books. "Another Fine Myth" and "Myth-conceptions" in the Starblaze editions were first illustrated by Frank Kelly Freas. I dislike Phil's work, but compared to this other guy (the "Thieves' World" artist), he's tolerable. Kelly's portrayal of the characters is a lot like I visualize them. Skeeve looks like Skeeve, and Aahz looks like Aahz instead of an all-teeth dumb-grin green slimy monster. By the way, there's a 5th one out now: "Mything Persons". The door gets opened (see "Hit or Myth"), and we get to find out what's behind it. . . . excellent book, and leaves me dying in anticipation for a sequel. After someone else reads this, please mail me a message speculating on the absence of Calvin. I haven't figured that (among other things) out yet. Red ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz Subject: Bischoff: _Destiny Dice_, Mild Spoiler Date: 3 Mar 85 22:13:40 GMT LAURENCE@SU-CSLI.ARPA writes: > ...However, I am now reading Destiny Dice or somesuch by Bischoff, >which not only is a spoof of itself, but also contains concealed >puns and word-play as well. For some reason, perhaps because >Bischoff realizes how silly he is being, which I do not think is >the case with Anthony, I am enjoying the book. I just finished reading this, _Destiny Dice_, _The Gaming Magis I_, by David Bischoff, who wrote Wargames. The book is about a group of magicians who play a complex game that affects another level of reality. The book flips intermittently between the two levels, and, as Laurence noted, there are a number of puns and purposeful faux pas involved (like Marines in the fantasy world, etc.) It's pretty clear from reading the book that Bischoff is a gamer himself. The game the gaming magi play is close to D&D, and there are a number of inside jokes and extrapolations based on the game (the destiny dice, role vs. roll playing, and so on). I don't mind books that do confuse the levels between the reader, the author, the story (and in this case, the fantasy below the magi), but while I found this book inoffensive, I didn't think Bischoff pulled this off as well as others have (Vonnegut and Robbins come to mind). I should also point out that this is the first book in a series, and definitely is not a complete book in itself. [As an aside, I find this very annoying. When did it become the habit to write series in which the individual books cannot stand alone?] Mildly interesting, more so if you are a gamer. -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 1985 15:25:47-EST From: wad@Mitre-Bedford I'm interested in finding out what other people thought of Spider Robinson's book MINDKILLER. I thought it was excellent, one of the best I've read. I particularly enjoyed his use of concepts previously developed by other authors i.e. Niven's concept of wireheading being the next social evil after drugs and alcohol. It was clever how things did not come together until the final chapters. This book is begging for a sequel !! Comments on any of Robinson's other work would also be of interest. Bill Dowling MITRE Corp. Bedford, MA ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 85 08:00 PST From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #87 Cc: Todd.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Micro-Review: Snow Queen by Joan Vinge A great book! The milieu is not as 'real' as some, but this is a minor problem since the characters, relationships, and politics are so good. Micro-Review: World's End by Joan Vinge Also a great book! This is a stream of consciousness novel. I have not read many in that style, and it is the first SF novel in that style I have ever read. This is much shorter than SNOW QUEEN, and the emphasis is different, but it is really good! I read both of these on a recommendation I saw in SF-Lovers. Thanks! >>Dave ------------------------------ Date: 6 Mar 85 15:22 EST From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Computer Science Fiction There is also a book called "The Cybernetic Imagination in Science Fiction" which provides some critical insights into the genre (it's home so I can't tell you the editors). See also "The Omni Book of Robots and Computers" (I think that's the title) for a collection of CSF short stories. - Michel ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 10:22 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Group Mind > I vaguely recall a story in which a group mind is formed when a > retarded farm hand meets up with a mongoloid child, a child with > telekinetic abilities and a pair of telepathic (naked) twins. This is More than Human by Theo. Sturgeon, which I mentioned in regards to group minds. - Brett Slocum ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz (Brad Templeton) Subject: Why Doctor Who is a great series Date: 7 Mar 85 05:00:00 GMT This is posted to net.sf-lovers because it is a description of why Doctor Who is good and should not be cancelled, and to post only to the Doctor Who group would be preaching to the converted. Doctor Who has lasted so long because it has, very simply, the best format ever dreamed up for an SF adventure series. It's a format with checks and balances, change and continuity, adventure and comedy, drama and romance, plus a whole pile of other things rolled up into one. Every Doctor Who fan knows they often have silly scripts and bad sfx. Some companions are good and some are bad. But it always balances out. 1) A single central character. This is the show's greatest vulnerability, but also a great strength. The writers are free to change anything but this character, and even that gets to change every few years. No matter what else goes wrong, the Doctor character saves the show and makes it entertaining. Because there is a single character, you can concentrate efforts and make sure your doctor is the kind of actor who can do this. Although they came close to missing with Davison 2) Short-lived continuing characters Few other shows have this. It lets you bring in new interesting characters, and give them time to develop. You don't have to keep them so long that they get stale, however. 3) Serial format This gives you the suspense of a soap, but breaks it up into nicer chunks so that you aren't as required to watch every show. It allows each writer to prepare a fully developed story independent of the other writers, and gives enough time (full movie-length) to do all that is necessary. Even characters for a single serial can be properly developed. It also allows bringing in character actors for nice short-term roles. And it's cheaper to produce than one-hour SF which requires twice the sets. 4) Time/Space/Probability travel They don't like to admit the last one, but each story is almost independent of the rest. This has the strength of the Twilight Zone, but the combination of continuity allows the show to get a following, and the creation of stars. You can't go wrong here, as you can take any kind of story and work with it. I wish they would go further, and invite well known SF authors to write serials based in their own worlds. 5) The Character of the Doctor Wise, lovable, whimsical, caring, cynical and pompous all at the same time. This always makes the show no matter what else happens. This also ties into the fact that the show, with origins as a children's show, has never taken itself so seriously as to get offensive. These factors, with others, combine to make the best series format ever created. No wonder it has gone 23 years. Sadly they don't have the money to a) Improve the effects b) Hire real SF writers and c) Get name character actors. If they did, you would have a show that can't be beat. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 1 March 1985, 15:52-EST From: James M Turner Subject: Boskone 22: NESFA & greed (caution:flamethrower set on broil) From: bnl!davison@topaz (Dan Davison) I've just returned from Boskone 22, and the news is not good. As usual, they had more people than they wanted; 2300 was the last number I heard. Actually I was so disgusted with the fall of NESFA that I didn't bother going to the con Sunday and Monday. First, however, the good news: Actually, the final number is 3540, with 3400 warm bodies. o the parties were shut down by the hotel at 3 AM. Somebody didn't do their work correctly; that's way too early. (ok-hotel problem) Very much a hotel problem. Marriott is run by the Mormons, something we didn't find out about until *after* the convention. We had *lots* of trouble with high level management causing trouble. If you had problems with the hotel, please write a letter to Marriott Corporate headquarters and let them know. If I was better prepared, I'd have their address for you, but your local Marriott will be happy to give it to you. o the elevators apparently read HHTTG, since they went on strike for most of the con, making it an exercise in patience to get to the various parties. (ok, another hotel problem) Westinghouse was truely amazed that 3 of 6 elevators were broken Saturday morning, something that had never happened in their experience. Fans kill elevators, fact. I will never again have anything to do with Boskone, NESFA, or their attempts at getting the '89 ('90?) worldcon, except possibly to work against the last. A common misconception, MCFI (Massachusetts Convention Fandom, Inc) runs Noreascons, while NESFA runs Boskones. They are seperate organizations, both financially and in terms of membership, although there is overlap. They were charging $22.00 at the door for => one day admission <= , the same as for the full event. I thought this was suspicious, especially since the people working the registration desk offered the stunningly lame excuse that "with these badges we can't tell one day people from all-weekend people". In less than 10 minutes in theregistration area I heard *at least* 10 people express surprise and disgust...but they still paid. The same people ran the '80 worldcon, had more people and still had day memberships. So the excuse is pure bu******. Actually, we do have one day memberships, on Sundays. Our basic philisophy is that with 3500 people coming, we really don't want *even more* warm bodies. That's why we don't advertise, or even place listings in coming events notices (like the Globe's Calendar section). And we don't charge $22 for one day admission, we charge $22 period (except Sunday). What really stunned me was the reason NESFA was charging a uniform $22.00: greed. Yep, GREED. The *** are buying a clubhouse and are using fen from all over the northeast to generate money for their relatively private use. "But they deserve it, they've put on great cons for 42 +/- something years". Yep, they've put on great cons (interesting how they've slightly adjusted the meaning of the word, eh?) but this is a gross violation and ripoff of everything fandom has stood for. Wake up and smell the coffee, all the major conventions make money. And if you think a clubhouse is going to be a private retreat, think again. Most of the motivation for getting one is so we have a centralized location to run our activities out of. Among other things, this means we can run better Boskones. As the person who ran pre-registration this year, accusations of greed really piss me off. I put in a couple of hundred hours slogging through thousands of pieces of mail, and I didn't even get a membership refund, much less a room refund. No one on the committee did. (as an aside, the '80 worldcon had an approximately $32,000 profit, so the Worldcon committee knows what they're doing [figure from the Noreascon Memory book]). Actually, about $20,000, and LACon II made close to 200K. Both groups funneled most (in Noreascon's case, all) of their excess revenue back into fan groups and charitable causes. Most of the Noreascon money went to the Connie Bailout and funding for things like recording SF for the blind. None of it went to NESFA (except for cross-charges) or Boston in '89. o I also was informed several times that the lousy film/video schedule was deliberate, because they didn't want riff-raff (no not him!) off the streets coming in "just to see the movies". Phoooooeeeeey. We've identified the film program as a "action item", which is something that had problems this year. Most of the committee didn't like the schedule either, and an attempt will be made to place films at more convienient times next year. (part II): I guess the yuppie-me-generation selfishness can reach all types. For some reason I thought fen were different. NESFA yuppies? Most of NESFA's been in Fandom since the late sixties, or earlier. Comments: For some reason, people always seem to get confused on these issues. The "money grubbing NESFAn" image is hard to shake. People look at our publishing section, and say "My, they must make a fortune off those books", when in reality we just about break even on most. They confuse fiscal responsiblity with greediness. Is $22 a lot of money? If you went to a professional conference, you'd pay an order of magnitude more (at least) for maybe 1/3 of the programming and activities. With planning, you don't even have to pay $22. Pre-reg was $16 for the past year. In fact, $22 is about what most *large* regionals charge at the door, and about a third of what Worldcon's charge. It's maybe 30% of the hotel bill for someone staying for the weekend (4 to the room), and about what you'll spend for a day's meals. And it gets you 24 hour/day films, 4-5 tracks of programming, an art show and dealers room, and a well stocked con suite. We don't hide the fact that we make money on Boskones. Our newszine publishes the balance sheets for the last Boskone every year, and all the major SF periodicals (SFC and Locus) get it. The fact that they don't find it newsworthy should indicate that it isn't unusual. Our meetings are always open to non-NESFAn, especially Boskone Committee meetings. If you have an opinion about Boskone, we *really* do want to hear from you. If you can't make them, or want to know when they are held, write to: NESFA Box G, MIT Branch Post Office Cambridge, MA 02139-0910 James Turner UUCP: ...decvax!physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn ARPA: JMTURN@MIT-MC ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Mar 85 1617-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #91 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 8 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 91 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner (2 msgs) & Vinge & Nebula Award Nominations & Upcoming Releases & A Story Request, Films - Best SF Movie Poll Results & The Forbin Project Television - The Prisoner, Miscellaneous - The Imp of the Perverse (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ddb%mrvax.DEC@topaz (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076) Subject: Brunner -- TCoT Date: 7 Mar 85 15:41:52 GMT Humph. I was very fond of The Crucible of Time. I also liked Shockwave Rider very much, and enjoyed The Sheep Look Up, Stand on Zanzibar, and The Jagged Orbit. I thought TCoT WAS sociological SF, it just had a more alien sociology to play around with. Actually, although the aliens were very alien (I thought they were well done) the basic sociology was, to my mind, essentially human. (By the way, did anybody else notice that for a LONG time before TCoT came out, there were no Brunner paperbacks in most bookstores (I exclude SF specialty stores)? It was terrible, there was nothing to separate Brooks from Brust) An older Brunner book that I enjoyed very much is The Traveller in Black. It's essentially fantasy rather than SF, it might not appeal for the same reasons as his other books; but it's very good. -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 85 1339 EST (Friday) From: Dave Ackley Subject: Brunner's The Crucible of Time A couple of recent messages have described Brunner's latest novel, The Crucible of Time, as unfinishable. I did finish it. It is a book easier to appreciate than to love. Brunner set himself a difficult task for the book: No humans ever appear. No humanoid aliens, no genetically altered human stock, no first-contact with space-faring humans, nothing. It is certainly possible to fulfill this constraint in a more-or-less trivial way, by taking any story one likes and replacing "Earth" with "Grotz", "marriage" with "conflockage", and so on. Brunner wanted more \alien/ aliens than that. But if there are no human-like characters, the aliens can't be \too/ alien. Imagine Lem's Solaris without a human presence. If the alien mind is unfathomable, and there are no humans, there is no story. Parts of The Crucible of Time were slow, but I quite appreciated the line that Brunner walked between syntactically alien humans and semantically incomprehensible aliens. Borrow the book and give it a try. -Dave Ackley (Ackley@CMU-CS-A) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 21:41 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Worlds End I read /Worlds End/ a while back, and was not grossly impressed, although for some reason I feel I ought to have liked the book better than I actually did. One thing to note about the book is that it is a sequel to /Snow Queen/ only in that the main character was a character in /Snow Queen/, whose name I've forgotten (B. B. something?) (it has been a while). * Mild spoiler * Said main character is the policeman who, after leaving the /Snow Queen/ planet is reassigned elsewhere. At the beginning of the book, his (or is it her?) brothers show up and reveal that they've lost the family fortune (and honor), and head into the unpleasant area of the planet that gives the book its name in search of wealth and/or death. After feeling sorry for himself, the policeman follows them, and the rest of the book is about him searching for his brothers while pretending to look for wealth, and more I shant say because I'd probably get it wrong. * End spoiler * Anyway, as I said, I didn't like the book that much, but when I heard Joan Vinge read a passage from it, it sounded better that I remembered, and I've been meaning to reread it ever since, but haven't gotten around to it. Mark ------------------------------ From: ahutb!ecl@topaz (ecl) Subject: Nebula Award Nominations Date: 6 Mar 85 18:41:28 GMT 1985 NEBULA AWARD NOMINATIONS Novel: THE MAN WHO MELTED, Jack Dann (Bluejay) NEUROMANCER, William Gibson (Ace) JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE, Robert A. Heinlein (Del Rey) THE INTEGRAL TREES, Larry Niven (Del Rey) THE WILD SHORE, Kim Stanley Robinson (Ace) FRONTERA, Lewis Shiner (Baen) Novella: "Young Dr. Esterhazy," Avram Davidson (11/84 AMZ) "Trinity," Nancy Kress (10/84 IASFM) "The Greening of Bedstuy," Frederik Pohl (7/84 F&SF) "A Traveler's Tale," Lucius Shepard (7/84 IASFM) "Marrow Death," Michael Swanwick (mid-Dec/84, IASFM) "Press Enter[]," John Varley (5/84 IASFM) Novelette: "Bloodchild," Octavia Butler (6/84 IASFM) "Bad Medicine," Jack Dann (10/84 IASFM) "Saint Theresa of the Aliens," James P. Kelly (6/84 IASFM) "The Lucky Strike," Kim Stanley Robinson (UNIVERSE 14) "The Man Who Painted the Dragon Griaule," Lucius Shepard (12/84 F&SF) "Trojan Horse," Michael Swanwick (12/84 OMNI) Short Story: "Morning Child," Gardner Dozois (1/94 OMNI) "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, EVERYTHING," George Alec Effinger (10/84 F&SF) "Salvador," Lucius Shepard (4/84 F&SF) "Sunken Gardens," Bruce Sterling (6/84 OMNI) "The Eichmann Variations," George Zebrowski (LIGHT YEARS & DARK) "A Cabin on the Coast," Gene Wolfe (2/84 F&SF) (Note that "Ace Science Fiction Specials" authors dominate the list: Gibson has his book nominated, Robinson has his book and a novelette, Shepard has 3(!) short pieces, and Swanwick has 2 short pieces. A pretty impressive group of authors.) Evelyn C. Leeper Note temporary kluge for new address => ...{ihnp4, houxm, hocsj}!ahuta!ahutb!ecl (List courtesy of SF CHRONICLE.) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 85 02:55:23 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Books! Here is a listing I got from a friend to post...slightly late but still useful: Upcoming SF from Bantam's Spectra line, as gathered from a promo flyer at the Bantam party at Boskone. MEDEA: Harlan's World. Edited by Harlan Ellison. Stories from many top pros set on a common, designed world. This time for sure Rocky! In trade pb, out in June. Child of Fortune. Norman Spinrad. The star-flung odyssey of a young woman through the heights and depths of an exotic interstellar culture. In hb, August. The Last Rainbow. Parke Godwin. A tale of two lovers--Dorelei, the beautiful leader of the Faerie, and the young priest who would eventually become St. Patrick. Trade pb, July. Beloved Exile. Parke Godwin. Regular size pb, June. The Proteus Operation. James Hogan. A sf thriller of a commando team sent back in time to prevent Hitler's >victory< in WWII. Hb October. The Dream Years. Lisa Goldstein (author of Red Magician). A fantasy about a young Surrealist from the 20's and a woman from the '68 Paris riots who cross time to discover love and hope in a visionary future. Hb September The Postman. David Brin. The adventures of a man after a nuclear war (probably strung together from the stories in Isaac Asimov's). Hb November. The Uplift War. David Brin. In the Startide Rising universe, the saga of the Progenitors continues in a tale of a planet resisting invasion. (I suspect that this is the book that had the working title of Gorilla). Mass market December. (nice that this book is coming out first in pb, as the other two in the series did) The Splendor and Misery of Bodies, of Cities. Samuel Delaney. The concluding volume of the epic begun in Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand. Hb, December. The Stars... book will be in mass market for in September. West of Eden. Harry Harrison. pb edition out in July. A Stainless Steel Rat is Born. Harry Harrison. The origin of Slippery Jim Di Griz (noted as never before published, so presumably deals with his life before he "reformed"). pb, October. The Book of Kells. R.A. MacAvoy. A young artist is transported to 10th century Ireland. pb, August. Venus of Dreams. Pamela Sargent. The first book in a series of unknown length about the struggle to colonize Venus. pb October. Gilgamesh the King. Robert Silverberg. A fantasy based on the biblical character. pb November. Polar Fleet. Warren Norwood. Next book in "The Double Spiral War" series. pb June. The Darkling Wind. Somtow Sucharitkul. A saga of the end of a millenia old galactic empire. July pb. The Christening Quest. Elizabeth Scarborough. A fantasy in the Chronicles of Argonia series. pb, August. Threshold. David Palmer. First in a series about far future humanity's struggle to preserve itself against a deadly cosmic force. pb November. Note that in Bantam's attempt to create a "separate" sf line, they are following the practice of mainstream in pricing their main books higher than their second rank books. At least I hope that pbs won't be $3.50 and $3.95 by the end of the year! ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 85 02:58:51 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Yet another question..... Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of children's books about three siblings, two male and one female, of whom the older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger, Theodore, is known as "The Toad". The kids have a dowager mentor, Mrs. Dextrose-Chesapeake, and a male tortoise-shell cat, coveted by Mrs. D-C due to its genetic impossibility. The Toad engages in such unsavory activities as writing semi-obscene filks to "Good King Wenceslaus" and practicing home voodoo with a kit ordered through a comic book ad (the kit works). have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ From: ukc!lkt@topaz (L.K.Turner) Subject: USENET Poll Results!!! (Best SF movie) Date: 6 Mar 85 17:54:55 GMT Now , the moment you have been waiting for , the results of the USENET poll to determine the best S.F film. Many thanks to all those people who sent in their votes. Sorry for the delay , but weve had some problems down here recently. Before the results , just a few words on how the votes were counted. In my original posting I didnt specifly the form of the votes , ideally I wanted a single choice. If the posting deviated from this , I applied the following criteria: (1). If someone sent in a list of films in 1,2,3 order , I took the first choice. (2). If they sent in a list of films and (a). they couldnt decide between them or (b). they said the selection of the best SF film depended on the definition of SF used. Then in both cases I split the vote equally between the films in the list , that is why some films have fractional votes. So now without further ado , here are the results :- [ From 32 mail repiles ] Position Film Title Votes cast 1. 2001 : A space odyssey 9 2. Bladerunner 5 3. Forbidden Planet 4 4. Star wars 3 5. Solaris (USSR) 1 1/3 6. Alien 1 Barbarella 1 Dark Star 1 Liquid sky 1 Return of the Jedi 1 Stalker (USSR) 1 The day the earth stood still 1 The Lathe of heaven (TV movie) 1 14. Wargames 1/2 The man in the white suit 1/2 16. Fahrenheit 451 1/3 Invasion of the body snatchers (original) 1/3 Once again many thanks to all whose who participated in the poll. Now *what* do you think of the results ? UUCP: ...!{ philabs,decvax,semiso}!mcvax!ukc!lkt OR ...!ucbvax!decvax!mcvax!ukc!lkt , ...!ihnp4!semiso!mcvax!ukc!lkt L.K.Turner ARPA: lkt%ukc@ucl-cs Computing Lab. , University of Kent Canterbury , Kent CT2 7NF , England. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7-Mar-85 13:47:24 PST From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: Forbin Project It was an amusing film, but was certainly unreasonable. I mean, would *you* ever rig up a computer *you* had programmed so that you couldn't turn it off and couldn't bypass it in any manner? By the way, this was one of the films that we screened during the early production phases of the first "Star Trek" movie (I was working for the firm that was doing the special effects at the time) and it helps to show where poor old "Vejur" got some of his inspiration. (Don't blame me for ST-I! I thought the script sucked.) --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 85 11:21:41 EST From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Prisoner: Who Is Number Six? - SPOILER!!! Derek Barkyr may know WHOM he prefers listening to, but I know WHAT I prefer as final authority: the series itself. In "Once Upon a Time" (2nd-to-last episode; McGoohan vs. Leo McKern), Number Two tries to break Number Six by forcing Six to relive Six's life (the idea being that when they reach Six's resignation, Six would spill the beans). They reach a point in Six's life where Six is (I guess) a student in a public (Am. equiv. "private") school. Two plays headmaster and shouts at Six: "I'll see you in my study, Drake!" Unless I misheard this sentence, here is direct proof FROM THE SERIES ITSELF that Six is Drake. McGoohan and Markstein can give us all the personal interpretation they want, but if it conflicts with established continuity (and they can't give an explanation why this isn't really a conflict, e.g., someone shows where Six's first name ISN'T John), then it is WRONG! McGoohan WROTE this episode! He should know! Chris Jarocha-Ernst ------------------------------ Date: Wed 6 Mar 85 23:11:15-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #86 Why should Maxwell's demon be the personification of Murphy's Law? If Maxwell's Demon, a supposedly infallible judge of slow and fast molecules, existed, he would put the Air Conditioner Industry out of business (after violating uncertainty and entropy laws, why should multilocation be so hard?) -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 85 11:05:33 EST From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Tonite's bout: Imp of the Perverse vs. Maxwell's Demon I don't know where you get the impression that the Imp of the Perverse is at all related to Murphy's Law. In Poe's short story (not an essay, as earlier reported), the Imp is merely a name given to certain self-destructive tendencies. Poe gives an example of someone on the edge of a precipice, looking down and wondering what it would feel like to jump. Of course, it would be fatal... But what would it *feel* like? As you dwell more heavily on a self-destructive option, Poe says, the "Imp" tries to make that option, not more attractive, but more likely. The story itself involves someone who has committed The Perfect Crime... but (of course) no one knows about it, so no one knows how clever he is. To tell would surely lead to prison. But, *Damn*, it was a clever stunt. Get the idea? Knowing that this self-destructive tendency is caused by the "Imp" doesn't help; the tendency remains. I assume that's what the button's creator meant. Poe's story has nothing to do with Maxwell's Demon. In fact, I can't see what Murphy's Law has to do with Maxwell's Demon. Chris ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Mar 85 1646-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #92 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 9 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 92 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Author Request, Films - Testament (2 msgs) & Star Wars & Star Trek (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & Henderson on TV (2 msgs) & Space Patrol, Miscellaneous - Boskone (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wakemanla%sanfan.DEC@topaz Subject: Another Female Author of merit Date: 6 Mar 85 20:15:37 GMT One female author I have enjoyed is C. J. Cherryh. Some of her stuff can be rather heavy (such as the Morganna trilogy) but some is rather easily readable. I have found her books to be all very enjoyable. Larry Wakeman Digital-San Francisco ------------------------------ From: Michael_D'Alessandro%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARP From: A Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 20:20:40 EST Subject: Request for Solar Sailing author I just saw a description of a story called "Sun Jammer" which is about a race of Solar Sails from earth orbit to the moon in a sort of lunar regatta. Could someone please tell me the author of this story, and was it a novel or an article in a magazine? Also, does anyone else know of any other "Solar Sailing" SF? Michael D'Alessandro <>: MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: TESTAMENT Date: 7 Mar 85 21:44:11 GMT >At some "realistic" level, "Testament" may indeed have >underestimated the prolonged horrors of a nuclear war aftermath in >ways "Threads" did not. But the death of the mother's (Jane >Alexander's) little boy (remember the scene at the sink?) Do I! >and her almost maniacal search for his teddy-bear told me more than >I ever wanted to know about a particular part of that horror. Somehow there is more sadness in the death of one person than in the death of millions. When you hear that 30,000 people are killed in a firestorm you do not feel 30,000 times as sad as when you hear one person is killed, particularly if that person is someone you have gotten to know. It may be less painful for the world to go with a bang than a whimper. The scenes you mention are the most memorable of the film, though others stand high. I guess that is why I have such mixed feelings about TESTAMENT. It was a great film but technically very (perhaps dangerously) inaccurate. It left me sadder than THREADS did. There are forms of warfare for which what is happening in the film is more in character with the facts. TESTAMENT is somewhat closer to a possible scenario for bacterialogical warfare then nuclear warfare. Yes, there are still problems there, but less of the film might have to be changed to make it accurate to that situation. >The deaths that follow seem to have a lessening impact until, by >the end of the film, the viewer is damned near numb. THREADS and THE WAR GAME stun and numb the viewer much faster to individual deaths, but overall they are more frightening. Less depressing but more frightening. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 8:30:29 EST From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ATB) To: lcuxc!kenw@topaz.ARPA Subject: Re: TESTAMENT I think that TESTAMENT showed how little the average US citizen knows about the nuclear radiation. I'm sure we all agree that nuclear war is the last thing we'd want. But if the balloon does go up, I'm not going to rush to fall on my sword. Maybe it'll get cold & we'll all perish, but I guarantee I'm not going to die from radiation by immediately running around outside while it's hot as those did in TESTAMENT. If the unthinkable ever happens, and the earth survives, I think it'll be a Mormon world. Somebody told me that Mormons are supposed to have several months' supplies of staples and water to tide them over in times of want (and that practice started long before anybody knew anything about nuclear horrors). ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (leeper) Subject: THX reference in STAR WARS Date: 8 Mar 85 02:23:03 GMT A week ago I posted the question, where was the reference to THX-1138 in STAR WARS. There is a minor trick here in that most people assume that the book was identical to the film and so finding the reference in the book would be finding it in the film. Nope. I decided I would give credit for someone telling me where the reference was in the book, if the answer included a mention that it was from the book. Either that or the reference had to be correct from the film. The reference was a line that Luke gave. When he was bringing Chewbacca into the cell block he said it was a prisoner transfer from (not to) cell block one-one-three-eight. Michael Esco, Paul Chisholm, and Kenn Barry get credit. Thank you for your efforts. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@topaz Subject: re: STAR TREK II Date: 6 Mar 85 11:44:31 GMT > From: mit-eddie!barry (Mikki) > Now, where can I get ST II with the additional scenes that were > run on ABC. Contrary to popular myth, they are NOT on the general > release videotape. (1) The only place you can get STII on videotape with the extra footage is from someone who taped the broadcast. Cripes, it was only on the other week! Give it some time and maybe Paramount will release the expanded version on tape. (2) The popular myth is not that the STII commercial videotape has the extra footage. The popular truth is that the commercial videotape of the *first* Trek movie has the extra footage that was added to it for its tv broadcast. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz (ZNAC343) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV. Date: 4 Mar 85 15:43:06 GMT Does anybody over in the states have any news on "STAR TREK IV", we have have heard that Nimoy has signed up but Shatner is still holding out.Is this true? Can anybody shed more light on the subject ? ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Mar 1985 13:49-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Dr. Who I just called the Dr. Who Fan Club about the cancellation. They assured me that it was only a temporary shut down of production for 18 months so that they could change the time slot. Sounds like a line to me. Once the show stops production, that's it. Even if they resume, it won't be the same. It never is. I still think we should write letters. wesm@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 14:45 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: More on Lew Grade > From: ISM780!patrick@topaz > As someone recently pointed out, Dr. Who is a BBC (non-commercial) > as opposed to ITV (commercial) production. Many of us Brits still > can't abide to watch TV that has advertisements in it. Anyway, > one of the leading businessmen behind commercial TV in England is > Lew Grade (now Sir Lew Grade). I forget who said it, but when > Parliament was first debating the introduction of commercial TV, > one MP objected that to grant a commercial TV license was to grant > a 'license to print money'. Sure enough, Lew Grade and a handful > of others became multi-millionaires, and just as inevitably, were > granted "Honours" by the Queen (in reality, by the Prime Minister > of the day). This despite the critism from middle- class > intellectuals that they were producing shoddy rubbish which > pandered to the lowest in public taste. In consequence of his ITV > programming Lew Grade acquired the nickname "Low Greed". I > suspect that Anthony is a member of the family. God help the BBC > if these guys are now in charge. Some of this information is a little out of date -- Lew Grade became Lord Grade at some point before his death (sometime last year, I think). I can't comment on the rest of this, but in Grade's defense, he put the Muppet Show on television when none of the American networks would do so, and produced The Muppet Movie. Should be enough to have gotten him into heaven, despite any sins he might have committed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 85 14:42:08 pst From: mab@aids-unix (Mike Brzustowicz) Subject: Zenna Henderson's "The People" I remember the made-for-TV movie "The People". It was supposed to be a pilot for a new series. Unfortunately, it was a very poor adaptation, sort of a revue. The writers took several of the short stories and attempted to make one story out of them. The concepts that Zenna Henderson portrays well were, in the movie, lost on anyone who had not read the books. (I remember, in particular the concepts of Remembering [racial memory] and Old Ones [The leaders, based on Psi ability] being botched to the point of seeming silly even to ZH fans.) [For ZH fans who have not seen the movie--they attempted to combine the group at Bendo with the larger Group by Baldie--they captured much of the down side of Bendo, but none of the light and magic of the other Group.] I recommend the two books about the people-- "Pilgrimage" and "The People--No Different Flesh". There was also a short story in "Holding Wonder" which might have been a People story--it's been so long since I've read it, but it read to me then (>10 yrs ago) as a possibility for "The Bright Beginning"--the start of the People's racial memory. Aside from these three books, and a fourth, called "The Anything Box" (All of which are short story collections, the first two having a "Meta-story" woven around them [in the fashion of Susan Calvin narration in "i robot"]), I don't know of any other books by her. Has anyone else heard of any? -Mike Brzustowicz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 09:48 PST From: Hank Shiffman Subject: TV movie based on Henderson's PILGRIMAGE.... From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Does anyone remember a made for TV movie that was adapted from Zenna Henderson's PILGRIMAGE and entitled, succinctly, "The People"? I saw this movie when I was quite young, must have been gradeschool or junior high, and I remember it as being wonderful. Yet it's been so long, I'm wondering whether I've got it correct. Was it really based on PILGRIMAGE or were there just similarities? I also can't remember a single actor in it. Thanks for any help. I believe it was an ABC Movie of the Week. It starred Kim Darby and William Shatner (remember him?) and was a pretty fair adaptation of the Henderson story. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7-Mar-85 13:42:19 PST From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: Space Patrol "Space Patrol" hardly even counts as trivia anymore, since it runs (sometimes several episodes a weekend) on USA Network's "Night Flight" program regularly. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1985 11:02:10 EST From: Subject: Boskone, Incorporation, and NESFA In a recent issue, a reader commented that the phrase "NESFA, Inc." implied that the group exists to make a profit, since they're incorporated. Sorry, but that's an unfounded assumption, as they may well be a non-profit corporation, as most faanish institutions tend to be (e.g., the WorldCons now incorporate in this fashion, as do many local clubs, esp. if they intend to own property/libraries/ mimeo machines or to spend large amounts of money, as in putting on a con). The purpose of incorporating as a non-profit is simple: it protects the individuals who work for the group. For instance, if a convention were put on by an unincorporated group, and it lost money, *every* individual who could be proven to have worked on that con -- even in an unpaid volunteer position -- could be hauled into court by the convention's creditors. If the group is incorporated, then no individual is liable for the group's debts. (However, if an individual associated with the group commits a crime with the group's funds -- embezzlement or fraud, for instance -- then that person can be tried.) The precise mechanism by which a group becomes a non-profit corporation is defined by state law. Once a group has incorporated, though, they can also apply for tax-exempt status at both the state and federal levels. In most cases, this is done on the grounds that the group is, in some way, serving an educational or cultural purpose, as defined in section 401(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, though there are lots of other legal reasons for being considered tax-exempt -- fraternal groups, religious organizations, and so on. By the way, being a "non-profit" corporation doesn't mean that you're trying to lose money. Rather, if the group makes money, the profit is not then distributed to the corporation's "owners", but used to further the purpose that was stated in the groups Articles of Incorporation. So, if NESFA feels that setting up a permanent structure for their clubhouse will help in some way to fulfill the formally-stated goals that are in their charter (and this is almost certainly the case, since such goals are usually stated in a manner that allows broad interpretation), then their stated plan of using any Boskone profits to help build/buy/furnish such a clubhouse is not only reasonable, but laudable -- they're doing exactly what they told you they were going to do. If you don't like the way NESFA goes about setting and fulfilling its goals, the best thing you can do is to join and raise your voice at meetings. Using sf-lovers as a forum is probably a waste of time, since this tends to be a collection of readers, not of faans -- the typical total attendance at the annual sf-lovers party at Worldcon, from what I've seen, is less than a hundred, and there are many, many more readers out there . . . --Dave Axler ------------------------------ From: bnl!davison@topaz (Dan Davison) Subject: My Boskone 22 flame & responses: about 35 lines Date: 3 Mar 85 18:02:09 GMT I'd like to thank Mark Norton for his reply to my comments about my flame about Boskone 22 & its apparent motives. I'm relieved that the Boskone profits are rolled over to the next con: all the con committees that I've been associated with have done the same. The appearance, however, was that there was a direct relationship between the one-day membership ripoff (which is what it was) and the funding of the clubhouse. I can't accept the contention that one-day memberships are too much of a bother: NESFA did a superb job on Noreason. Hence my continuing characterization of a ripoff. The film schedule went too far the other way. I'm tired of seeing Star Wars & friends, and Star Trek N, but having almost nothing to offer in their place shows contempt for fen. Off the top of my head, a "second-rank" film schedule: Bladerunner and/or Alien, Doc Savage, Fantastic Planet, Forbidden Planet, Buckaroo Banzai, etc. Not the pick of the litter but interesting rather than the stuff that was shown. If NESFA wants more volunteers, relax the 8 hour rule to 4 hours: health problems prevent me, at least, from being able to commit myself to *anything* for 8 hours. Lastly, the "22" & the 3000+ fen that showed up means that NESFA has had a reputation for putting on good cons. If they don't want people to come, don't publicize it or don't run a con. If the group doesn't want the responsiblity that comes with the reputation, drop Boskone. I don't want to hear the nth building a world panel & the various other repeats. I'd rather see the art show and interesting movies & have more meet-the-authors- **individually** sessions. dan davison ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Mar 85 1229-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #93 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 93 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Herbert (5 msgs) & Nebulas & Story Help & Another Request, Films - A Boy and His Dog & Brainstorm & The Forbin Project & Five Million Years to Earth, Television - The Prisoner, Miscellaneous - Boskone (2 msgs) & The Imp of the Perverse ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 9:39:27 EST From: Joel B. Levin Subject: Re: Sun Jammer query To: MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@mit-multics.arpa One of many such answers I'm sure you will receive ... "Sun Jammer" by Arthur C. Clarke may be found in his recent collection THE SENTINEL. Pax / JBL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 85 02:35:54 pst From: Anders Herbj|rnsen From: Subject: Heretics of Dune >"Heretics of Dune" should be out in paperback shortly. There is a >sixth book in the works, I forget the title. > The fifth DUNE book is called "HERETICS OF DUNE" and has been >out since early 1984 in hardcover. I don't think it is in trade or >regular paperback just yet. The paperback version of Heretics of Dune has been in sale in Norway for more than 3 months now. I believe it's an american edition. ..anders.... ------------------------------ From: anton@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Anton) Subject: Re: DUNE books Date: 8 Mar 85 05:50:00 GMT I just wanted to let it be known that "Heritics of Dune" is out in paperback. I spotted them on March 5. I can't say anything about the book yet, but I'm sure it will probably be the worst of the five. (going downhill all the time) I would be glad if there were no more Dune books coming since I hate hearing reviews of a new hardback since none of my friends are fool enough to buy the thing. Jeff Anton U.C.Berkeley ucbvax!anton anton@berkeley.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ism70!dianeh@topaz Subject: Re: DUNE books Date: 8 Mar 85 06:21:15 GMT >> Does anyone have some information on any books after the fourth >> DUNE book entitled "God Emperor of Dune". I just read through >> all four books and am breaking out in hives waiting to see how >> the next one will be. The fifth book is entitled "Heretics of Dune". I just saw an ad that it's now available in paperback. I haven't read it, though...I'm waiting for the SF Book Club to offer it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 8 Mar 85 13:46:29-GMT From: Alan Greig Subject: Chapter House Dune This book is actually on sale in the UK and has been for at least the last two weeks. I've been contemplating whether to buy it but at 9 pounds I think I'd be more likely to wait for the paperback considering the previous books. I don't know why its on sale here and not in the states yet. Things don't normally happen that way. Alan Greig (Alan%dct@UCL-CS.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: utastro!ethan@topaz (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: DUNE books Date: 8 Mar 85 19:39:09 GMT > I just wanted to let it be known that "Heritics of Dune" is out in > paperback. I spotted them on March 5. I can't say anything about > the book yet, but I'm sure it will probably be the worst of the > five. (going downhill all the time) I would be glad if there were > no more Dune books comeing since I hate hereing reviews of a new > hardback since none of my friends are fool enough to buy the > thing. > Jeff Anton > U.C.Berkeley > ucbvax!anton > anton@berkeley.ARPA OK I confess. I read Dune *many* years ago and liked it very much. I have read none of the sequels until recently. I started the second book and thought it stunk. However, I have read "Heretics of Dune". It wasn't bad at all. In fact, I liked it. Not great literature, and a little confusing, but a nice story. (I didn't buy the hardback. I borrowed it.) Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 85 14:29 IST From: Henry Nussbacher Subject: Nebula nominations What a blow to Analog! Not a single nomination. Wow! ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 1985 1907-CST From: Dan Subject: Story Help A number of years ago I ran across a story (??) that was written as a supposed tranlsation of the first (sf?) story written by a Dolphin. I can remember nothing else about it. I don't know if it was in a book, magazine, etc.. Does this ring a bell with anyone? Please mail responses to me directly. Thanks. Dan Nichols ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 11 Mar 1985 06:44:43-PST From: faiman%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Neil Faiman ~ ZKO2-3/N30 ~ From: 381-2017) Subject: Yet another question.... > Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of children's > books about three siblings, two male and one female, of whom the > older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger, Theodore, is known as > "The Toad". The kids have a dowager mentor, Mrs. > Dextrose-Chesapeake, The book with the mail-order voodoo kit is _Mrs._Coverlet's_Magicians_ (I have no idea who the author was). I loved it, about 20 years ago, but never found the earlier book (the one about the cat). -Neil Faiman ARPA FAIMAN%ELUDOM.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA Usenet {decvax|allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-eludom!faiman ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: SF movies Date: 8 Mar 85 20:38:58 GMT jay@smu.UUCP writes: >>Great movie. I saw it a long time ago in Dallas actually replayed >>in a theater. It feels like a made-for-tv movie, but it's still >>good. The thing I loved most of course was the ending. >>Absolutely Perfect Scene!! >> >>*** SPOILER *** >> >>The hero is escaping and this girl wants to come along. You >>wonder if you should have a happy-all's-well ending. Then the boy >>and his dog leave their camp after a nice dinner. Guess who was >>the dinner? Would someone please expand this ending to it's full >>glory? > > Would someone please expand this *article* to its full NAME so > that I can decipher which great SF Movie is being discussed here? The name of the movie was A BOY AND HIS DOG which was made from a Harlan Ellision novella of the same name which won a Nebula award or Hugo I think. ------------------------------ From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: BRAINSTORM (spoiler) Date: 9 Mar 85 11:37:35 GMT Of course, the real problem with Brainstorm was that the woman's senses continued to provide input to the recorder after they biologically ceased to transmit signals. The angels were also a bit silly. Nonetheless, overall, a science fiction film that tries to describe the human implication of a new class of technologies, and pretty well done. Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 85 16:04:39 EST From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: Forbin Project: turning it off Now that you make me think of it, wasn't Collusus, the Forbin Project the first movie to teach us that we shouldn't make machines we can't turn off? You wouldn't make such a machine because you saw the Forbin Project. (I'm not claiming the idea was completely original. Frankenstein seems like an obvious predecesor. But it seems the one that brought the point home to computers.) ------------------------------ From: siemens!steve@topaz Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-s Date: 8 Mar 85 14:59:00 GMT I recently made a rather unintelligible flaming response to Mark Leeper's note about his favorite sf film "Five Million Years to Earth". This note is an attempt to clarify and defend that flame. I saw "Five Million Years to Earth" quite some time ago, and I don't remember it too well. I remember mostly the hoaky and/or silly special effects like the giant devil-insect ghost at the end and the melting aliens and a few others. I also remember thinking the movie was pretty dumb. So I had to rely mainly on Mark Leeper's spoiler to jog my memory. Mark's spoiler: "The army, with much trouble, is able to bore a hole into the inner chamber found in the craft, and inside they find insect-like inhabitants. Quartermass theorizes that they are from Mars and that they had altered the apes whose fossils were found into evolving toward intelligent humans." Mark's comment to me: "Given the evidence I cannot think of any time in the film when Quartermass or Roney jump to a wild conclusion when there is another that is simpler AND more convincing." So anytime an extraterrestrial craft that is 5 million years old is found, the simplest, most convincing explanation is that the aliens are from Mars and they altered apes into evolving toward intelligent humans. A much more complex and unconvincing explanation is that we don't know where they came from and their reason for being on Earth probably had nothing to do with the apes. GGGGIIIIIIVVVVVVVEEEEE MMMMEEEE AAAA BBBRRRREEEEEAAAAKKKK!!!!!! My swiss cheese memory and Mark's spoiler offer no evidence for Quartermass to believe the aliens were from Mars, and no evidence that they had anything to do with the apes except being on Earth at the same time. Perhaps there was something in the movie or in the play to justify these conclusions, but I don't remember and Mark didn't mention it. Afterwards, evidence appears to support these wild conclusions, and this is the heart of what I was sputtering and flaming about: crappy "sf" movies often have a scientist make a wild conclusion and later provide evidence to support it. (I ineloquently phrased this as "...and this explanation is taken for fact for the rest of the movie."). There is another example. Mark's spoiler: "Quartermass ... hears the driller babbling about seeing scenes from another world. His description seems to be of a race purge of mutants. Quartermass theorizes that the telekinetic powers and the hatred of anyone different were invested in us by the aliens and were always with us more or less dormant. The craft has the power to reawaken them in us." There is no evidence that the telekinetic powers were always with us more or less dormant. There is no evidence that hatred of anyone different was invested in us by the aliens; it may be a trait that we and the aliens share, to different degrees. In fact, I kind of remember even the part about the "description seems to be of a race purge of mutants" to have been something like (I admit to exaggeration): Driller: Thousands of weird aliens being driven out! They're being killed! All sorts of havoc and destruction! Quartermass: Was it some sort of racial purge of mutants? Tell me! Driller: Babble babble yes! I think you probably get the idea of what I am flaming at. Scientist makes wild, unfounded conclusion which is later supported by evidence not available at the time the conclusion is made. Please forgive me if I am wrong about this movie, and I simply don't remember supporting evidence. I'm pretty sure I would remember, though. By the way, this business about mutants brings up another pet peeve of mine, that science fiction authors and readers generally know very little about biology and seldom understand mutation or evolution. Systematically killing off all abnormal individuals would be an anti-survival trait if you accept the theory of evolution. (Small quibble in this movie; someday I'll flame on about this one when a better (worse) example comes up.) In conclusion, I maintain that unless I remember totally wrong, the "science" put forth in this film is worse than useless. However, if I could get that out of my mind, I think I might agree with Mark that the film presents a number of very interesting ideas worth thinking about. ihnp4!princeton!siemens!steve ------------------------------ Date: 9 Mar 85 16:12:10 EST From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: re: Who is number six? Of course the prisoner wasn't John Drake. He was number Six. Remember? He didn't *have* a name. Even if the character was supposed to be the Secret Agent, even the Secret Agent didn't have a name, right? John Drake was just a cover. I think this explains the discrepency fairly well. McGohan (how embarassing not to know how to spell his name!) was answering the question asked: "Was the prisoner John Drake?" The other dude was answering the question intended: "Was the prisoner the same person as the Secret Agent?" At least, that's my guess. ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Boskone 22 Date: 3 Mar 85 19:00:59 GMT Barry and I have been attending BOSKONE (coming out from Los Angeles to do so) for over ten years. As old fans, we don't bother attending programs, preferring to save our waking hours for the core period of 5PM - 3AM. We're far too busy meeting our East Coast friends (for a precious 3-5 days a year) to want to sit in chairs and listen to panels or movies. AS a hotel site, we preferred the old Sheraton, with its large rooms and dependable elevators and nearby mall. The new Marriot isn't bad either, particularly if you dress mundanely enough not to run into any dress code problems. (From what we can tell, restaurants ended up mainly discriminating against young fans and costume ball participants.) We very much liked access to the Copley Place and Westin Hotels, and I understand that the structure may be extended up to the Sheraton/Prudential Center Complex someday which would be even nicer. Once upon a time (perhaps still), NESFA used to do advance work in the hotel-- tipping maids/waiters/etc. to make up for the fact that fans are notoriously undertippers. Perhaps before next year's Boskone, NESFA might do a little spadework as to which local restaurants are willing to serve strangely clad people--and have it so announced in the convention daily, thereby getting significantly more business. And which restaurants aren't willing to do so-- so even the mundanely clad could boycott them. The hotel elevators were horrible. At one point we found ourselves stalled for 30 minutes awaiting one in ANY direction. But then most hotel elevators break down/get jammed by sf conventions. We enjoyed Boskone tremendously in spite of it all. --Lee & Barry Gold ------------------------------ Date: 7 Mar 1985 10:15:44-EST From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc Subject: Marriott Security at Boskone I had a fairly mellow interaction with a female security guard. A new acquaintance and I were sharing a skinny little cigarette in the stairway, and she came by and said, "I didn't see that, but you'd better go to a room." ------------------------------ From: reed!todd@topaz (Todd Ellner) Subject: Re: Help with Button Date: 7 Mar 85 19:45:39 GMT From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford >I have a button that reads > > I am the Imp of the Perverse > (knowing this won't help you either) > >That I bought and stuck on our MILNET IMP. Actually, I had to by >another one because I think our IMP hardware guy took the first >one. Question is what does it mean. Does this relate to some >book? Can As I posted before, The Imp of the Perverse is the title of an essay by Poe. It concerns the tendency or voice within which makes you do things which you know are evil/self-destructive/perverse. Knowing what you are about to do doesn't help at all (I know I'll go splat, but I've just got to step off that cliff). Todd ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Mar 85 1325-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #94 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 94 Today's Topics: Books - Asprin & Chalker & Tepper, Films - Nuclear War Films & Filmex Marathon & Brainstorm & Star trek (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Boskone & SF Book Club (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 10 Mar 85 20:42:04-CST From: Douglas Good Subject: MythDrawn Covers Some of the people may dislike Phil Foglio's drawings but at least they're accurate. On the cover of the Myth books Ahz is shown as being a lot taller than Skeeve. However, in the book it mentions that Skeeve is taller than Ahz. It's not only that way on the first book but also on the second. Someone at my local book store told me that the third book (Myth Directions?) has been out of print for a few months. Could they be republishing it with Foglio's illustrations? (Personally I hope so.) --Doug ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 19:12 EST From: Richard Subject: RE: Good Chalker In response to the question about Jack Chalker: The_Dancing_Gods are good, Soul_Rider is so,so. Better than either is his Four Lords_of_the_Diamond series along with Well_World. It is Chalker at his best. ******* SPOILER WARNING********* The only likable person after a while in Soul_Rider was Matson who admitted he didn't give a damn about anybody but family and fellow stringer. After a while I rooted for the Seven who Wait just to see what would happen. QU229C@GWUVM.BITNET ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz Subject: Sheri Tepper Date: 10 Mar 85 00:11:16 GMT I just read _THE SONG OF MAVIN MANYSHAPED_ by Sheri Tepper, a prequel to the TRUE GAME series. I found the book better than the TRUE GAME books. I think Tepper has learned to write a bit better and to construct a plot much better. I reccommend the book. Going back and reading the TRUE GAME series again, I came up with a couple of questions. "Strange are the Talents of Wizards..." Fine, but what are they? Anyone have any guesses? None of the wizards in the story ever use any Talents (at least openly) and Winslow never even realized he was part Wizard. That at least argues that Wizards have no Talent other than cunning. Also, Sorah's prediction at the end of _WIZARD'S ELEVEN_. I haven't got it with me at the moment, but any guesses as to the plot it might lead to? Sounds vaguely like an exorcism, what with book, candle and bell. -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ From: saber!msc@topaz (Mark Callow) Subject: Re: Nuclear War films - THREADS Date: 8 Mar 85 20:22:19 GMT > For those who though the "Day After" and "Testament" were bad, you > should see the English-produced "THREADS". > > The reviewers say that THREADS makes the Day After look like a > romp through the daisies, and while it's not quite that bad, they > are close. If you really want to be frightened see Peter Watkin's "The War Game". This was commissioned by the BBC but when they saw the finished product they deemed it too scary to show on TV. It has never been shown on TV, in Britain at least, but was released as a movie. Last August, there was mention that the BBC might finally show it, as part of an examination of nuclear war, along with Threads and some documentaries and discussion programs. 17 years after seeing it I still have vivid memories of the scenes of the fire storms and resulting hurricane force winds. With this memory, the depiction of fire storms in Threads did not seem believable. Threads did not depict the gale force winds that would result from the firestorm. I also have vivid memories of policeman shooting those too maimed to live since there were almost no medical facilities to take care of them. Just typing these few words is bringing back the feeling of horror I experienced with the realisation of how bad things were anticipated to be for the police to have instructions to do that. The War Game was a documentary style film based on the then current scientific understanding and civil defense planning in Britain. It was around this time in my life that I decided I would never work on weapons and have as little as possible to do with any other military work. From the TARDIS of Mark Callow msc@saber.UUCP, saber!msc@decwrl.ARPA ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!saber!msc, ...{amd,ihnp4,ittvax}!saber!msc ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz Subject: Filmex Fantasy Marathon Date: 9 Mar 85 22:31:37 GMT I've posted a complete list of the films to be shown in Filmex's 50 hour film marathon (March 29-31) to these newsgroups in the LA area. Those outside the area who are interested can send me mail to get the list. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM) Date: 9 Mar 85 23:57:22 GMT leeper@ahutb.UUCP (m.leeper) writes: > ... The at-death-experience is one of the least interesting >implications they could follow. ... Oh, come on now. The question of what happens when a man dies can hardly be considered uninteresting. Some would argue that this question is what has driven man to civilization and the pursuit of knowledge. I hardly think this is "one of the least interesting" topics BRAINSTORM could have pursued, particularly given the need to write a story, and not just a collection of interesting extrapolations. -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!barry@topaz (Mikki Barry) Subject: re: STAR TREK II Date: 8 Mar 85 16:31:39 GMT Sorry for being impatient about getting hold of STII with the extra footage. The myth I was referring to was a previous posting to the net stating that the extra footage was on the commercial release videotape. Having said tape, I can tell you the footage is not there. I just thought that if people were under the impression that the extra footage was indeed on a tape somewhere, that they would know where I could get it. Holding my breath, Mikki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 08:14 PST From: Wahl.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: ST IV News from Harve Bennett via Interstat (a Star Trek letterzine): "1) Shatner is set. 2) Nimoy is set. 3) The Great Bird returns. 4) We are beginning the final work on the story. 5) We plan to use all the Star Trek regulars. 6) I'll be there, too." --Lisa Wahl ST Welcommittee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 85 23:26:48 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: The cancellation of Dr. Who If you are concerned about the cancellation of Dr. Who, then READ THIS MESSAGE! While vacationing in Florida last week, I had the pleasure of attending a Whovian Festival (they called it something else) in Tampa. It was put on by the Dr. Who Fan Club of America, and featured Peter Davidson and John Nathan-Turner (the current producer for those of you who are not in the know). About one minute after I sat down (and I was even a half-hour late), a green sheet of paper was shoved into my hand. Across the top it said "SAVE DOCTOR WHO!" It went on to say: "The BBC thinks it's going to cancel Doctor Who! We know better -- whether the BBC likes it or not!! Send letters .. one each to:" and gave the following three addresses: Michael Grade, Controller BBC TV Woodlands 80 Wood Lane London W12 OTT Alastair Milne, Director General BBC TV White City London W12 and... (believe it or not) Margaret Thatcher 10 Downing St. London Also during the conference, there was a Q&A session with Davidson and Nathan-Turner. The second question asked was about the rumored cancellation. John confirmed that, yes, the BBC has decided to halt production on Dr. Who for this season. BUT -- there is hope. He also said that he and others would continue to work on the next season (script writing and such) even though it won't get aired until 1986 at the earliest. They have NOT completely cancelled the show, they have only taken it off the air for one season. John Nathan-Turner implied that they had not yet made a decision on whether or not Dr. Who would be back in 1986. If you want it to continue, then write letters now! I also got the chance to see two complete stories with the current Doctor -- Colin Baker. The second one (and the one that closed the festival) guest starred Patrick Troughton. It was called (naturally) "The Two Doctors". Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Dr. Who outlasted even Gunsmoke? William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University "Never trust a man with dirty fingernails." --The fourth Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Mar 85 19:12 EST From: Richard Subject: Dr. Who companions. I'm curious about the Doctor's companions who people regard as their favorite, and least favorite and why. Here are my five favorites and the two least. Favorite in order: Romana II: The closest thing to a female Doctor. She gave well as good as she got. Romana I: Almost as good, she showed us the Doctor wasn't all knowing. Adric: Yes Adric, The baker one and the one in Earthshock, easily the best show of Davidson's first two years. Nyssa: Bright to begin with and matured during Fenure. The Brigadier: When he was in a show with Baker or Davidson it made it special. ***THE WORST**** Tegan: As a noted Alzarian commented: Mindless, impatient, and bossy. Turlough: A coward that should have been thrown to the Black Gardian. Note: According to Celebration, K9 is not a companion. QU292C@GWUVM ------------------------------ From: ddb%mrvax.DEC@topaz (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076) Subject: Boskone Date: 7 Mar 85 15:53:53 GMT One solution to a high at-the-door price is to pre-register... cons really like you to pre-register so that they have a good idea of what sort of problem (i.e. crowd control) they have facing them. Many cons have dropped one-day registrations. Given that cons are run by volunteer labor, usually by non-profit groups (those that don't have club-houses don't have such big expenses to cover...), and that one-day registrations are considerable trouble (all badge-checkers have to recognize multiple classes of badges, not to mention the record keeping), it seems perfectly reasonable to me to drop them. What bothers me about the story is the statement that they claimed to have them, but they cost the same as a full registration; that seems like a deliberate insult to those wanting them. Relations with the hotel were an interesting tangle. On the one hand, for the first time I can remember Boskone managed to get the hotel to extend checkout time for con members. It's about time, this is one of the things that makes the biggest difference to me at a con. I'm often not up by the usual checkout times.... On the other hand, hotel security was rude and surly, the bellhops were rude and surly, and the restaurant managers were rude and surly. On balance, I'd rate it "mediocre", composed of equal parts "good" and "bad". It might have been better to have a lower standard deviation.... Film program -- personally I approve of their reputed policy of de-emphasizing the film program. I do not attend films at SF-conventions; I view them as social functions. If there's nothing better to do than sit in the dark watching flashing lights on a screen, I rank it as a complete failure. Many people that I like, and like to see at conventions, like to watch films, at conventions and elsewhere. However, MOST of the class of people I DON'T like to see at conventions seem to find the films the main attraction. (I doubt most of them can read...). On balance, therefore, while regretting the loss to people who like films AND books, I find conventions better if they reduce the film program to the more esoteric and unusual items. {If you consider the above a flame, you have a socialization problem. THIS is a flame; the difference should be obvious.} -- David Dyer-Bennet -- ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb ------------------------------ From: panda!mjn@topaz (Mark J. Norton) Subject: sf book club Date: 6 Mar 85 14:38:20 GMT > I'm in a third category (long-time member, sad that prices are > going up but intending to remain a member) and was wondering if > *everyone* else is in the other two. If so, I can extrapolate > that I, too, will someday be driven out; I'd hate that, since the > postage on the reply forms is well worth the bargain I pick up > (admittedly mostly on older titles) a few times a year. I enjoy > even a mediocre-quality hardback much more than the smaller, > can't-prop-up paperback. Am I the only "chump" in my category? > Dave Suess zeus@aerospace.ARPA I am another long-time subscriber to the sfbc. In the twelve or so years I've been buying books from them, I've been occasionally stuck with books I didn't want. I've seen the prices slowly creep upwards. I've had arguments over whether I paid a bill or not, etc. On the other hand, I have many collections (such as Zelazny's Amber Chronicles) which have appeared no where else. Many times I've seen a sfbc edition of a new book come out before trade hardcover (Pohl's Heechee Rendezvous). I like the fact that my bookclub editions seem to stand re-reading better than paperbacks. I like the choices and new selections I see every month. I buy about 12-16 books a year from them. Starting with sfbc editions, I've become intrested in collecting hardcover sf books. I have many old sfbc selections. I've also branched out into first editions (trade) and specialty publishers (such as Gregg editions). I general, I am pleased with the book club and will continue to be a member. I've had my problems, but most of them were my fault or were worked out with them. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Mar 1985 07:12:01-PST From: herbison%ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (B.J.) Subject: SFBC - not returning the Member Reply Form After reading about the people who asked SFBC to not force them to return the Reply Form every month, I asked the same thing with the last letter I sent them. Their reply was: Thank you for contacting us. We regret we cannot change your account as requested. The Member Reply Form must be returned with your instructions to refuse shipment of the featured selections. Our method of operation has worked well over the clubs 60 years of dependable service. In order to continue to provide this fine service, and to keep our prices low, we must adhere to the agreement under which you enrolled. They then went on to say that you are normally given plenty of time to review the offerings before the deadline, that they pay for return postage of unwanted books, to contact them if I have a problem meeting the deadlines, and that I am a "valued member". B.J. ARPA: Herbison%Ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {decvax,allegra,ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-ultra!herbison ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Mar 85 0945-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #95 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: Books - Valentina, Films - Five Million Years To Earth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 85 12:00 IST From: Tamir Weiner Subject: submission to sf-list V A L E N T I N A ===> (somewhat new) book review A few months ago I spotted an interesting entry on the local BBS here concerning some stories originally appearing in ANALOG Science Fiction and Science Fact under these titles: Valentina - May 1984 The Crystal Ball - August 1984 The Light in the Looking Glass - September 1984 The BBS description of the stories intrigued me so I had my wife look for them on a recent visit to the States. To my surprise and pleasure they now exist together in a single paperback book: "Valentina: Soul In Sapphire" by Joseph H. Delaney and Marc Stiegler Printed by Baen Books (distributor Simon & Shuster) first printing October 1984. Almost as soon as it arrived I picked it up and polished it off in just two sittings. I usually don't inhale books that quickly but this one caught my interest. It read as fast as any great SF I've read by Heinlein or Asimov. The Net has gotten me fascinated by the subject of telecommunications and computer networks, and I've learned quite a bit since my recent exposure to the Net. Only wish work permitted me more time to "hack" around, but I'm glad for the time I do have. The world has in fact become that tiny electronic village which the visionaries of only 20 years ago wrote! ** m i n i - r e v i e w (non-spoiler) ** So what is Valentina about? As you can surmise, about computers, networks, and related topics. But it's much more than that. The central plot line revolves around the self-aware program which one Celeste Hacket, hacker extraordinare has created, and which she names "Valentina". It is about Valentina's personality development more than her birth, and about her fight for survival in a not so friendly world. But this book is more than just a computer update of the Frankenstein story, and more than just a hackers wet-dream. This is a story of personality, and people. Of artificial intelligence and the nature of sentience. What makes a person a person? And when is a program really intelligent? Does a sentient program have any rights as do sentient humans? Or is it just so much code to be purged when it gets in someone's way. What the author's have done is use a background of computers and networks to explore some issues and raise some questions in a novel that is very entertaining, and provoking without being philosophical, or pushing an ideology. I'll say from the outset that it has some technical flaws and noticeable omissions: the background of a world-wide network is glossed over and could have been developed more. From the AI standpoint the author's stretch one's "willing suspension of disbelief" which all SF novels require, perhaps too much when Valentina leaps from self-awareness to real human understanding, expression, communication in just a few pages. But I think one can forgive this technological blasphemy and poetic license of the authors because the point here is not the how's and why's of Artificial Intelligence, but rather what comes after.... the definition of sentience, of self-awareness, of rights to existence, and the relationship between aware computer programs (rather than aware "hardware" an interesting distinction) and their human creators, and competitors perhaps in a world which can be hostile to well meaning programmers and their creations. So what if the book has flaws! Ever read a book which didn't? It is fast paced, has memorable characters -- even if they sometimes are a bit stereotypical. In a nutshell, this book deals with a variety of ideas in a story which is delightful, and entertaining. If you like networking, and computer programming, it's a good read. *** Detailed discussion of "Valentina" MILD SPOILER *** In response to what started as some criticisms of Valentina I've added these comments which look more in depth at some of the questions raised by the story.... Valentina was called non-innovative, perhaps, but that is no great fault. Witness the current discussion of STAR WARS, or BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS. Both have been called great ripoffs. If stories are less than original, then it is a question of how they are written, not is it the first on the block to deal with a topic. The treatment of AI in Valentina is not original, but I believe the point of the story is not technological innovation, but exploring the personality aspects of AI and issues may be raised by self-aware programs that migrate over world networks. Valentina's birth and development are a bit spotty. In the space of just a few pages she goes from the beginnings of self-awareness to human expression, and then later to understanding and communication. She uses complex terms like love, hate, and worry freely and in the right context. This is a tough nut. Current discussions in AI center around how far indeed we are from this point of real understanding and communication with programs. But I think the authors here wanted to start out with a very "logical" computer-like being, and then they ask us to make a "leap of faith" in accepting at some point Valentina's use of human language to express herself. It was abrupt as leaps of faith go, but essential to the pace of the book. I don't see this a flaw, more like poetic license to carry the points to be developed later, instead of being bogged down in issues of how an AI program can really get to be self-aware, and deal with human communication and understanding. The Worldnet of the book is not completely thought out. This is a comment which I heard, and agree. Worldnet was a bit scant, and you're left hungry for more information on how and why worldnet developed, functions, etc. Here again I feel the authors choose to gloss this part of the story for they were more interested in pursuing the concepts of intelligence, human nature, and sentient beings, and the interactions between humans, and another sentient intelligence, rather than forecasting where networks are in detail or where networking is going. An interesting point of Valentina is that she is a program only, and not a particular machine. In fact the idea is freely explored that programs will become migratory over networks, and different installations, instead of being run on a particular machine. This already is in the works today, and is a fascinating aspect of networking in and of itself. The old questions posed by stories (movies) like COLOSUS, THE FORBIN PROJECT, which were just FRANKENSTEIN stories clothed in transistors, may become laughable as hardware is seen only as a vehicle for the execution of sophisticated intelligent and self learning modules which can converse and reason with people. There is a flaw of realism in the book on the optimistic portrayal of US, USSR relations in just a decade from now. Seems like 1994 and a world wide network is just not going to happen. Not at the rate we are going politically, even though technically it's not far fetched. Surprise was raised by some at Celeste's attitude. As the author of Valentina one might expect her to turn it in to MIT for the laurels she'd get and lo and behold, of course the people there would be enlightened enough to give Valentina it's own machine to run on. But on closer examination, this is not such a reasonable expectation. I can more easily accept an evolving program spontaneously becoming self-aware, than I can believe that any University will graciously give resources and funding and recognition to a radical, revolutionary idea. Witness the research being done into computer viruses. I believe it was USC that required research into this area to stop because it considered the concept of migrating code too dangerous.... so they bury their academic heads in the sand, rather than confront the issue. They would kill Valentina faster than any malicious hacker ever would. In fact this is one of the books points. The hackers which threaten Valentina do so only out of the fault of not relating to her as a sentient creature but as so much bothersome code of another hacker, just purge the damn thing.... But after they are convinced of her sentience, they in fact become her greatest allies! This is a remarkable statement, and one of the most hopeful points of the books. I thought Valentina was a fine work, and even one that has some important questions to raise, outside of its fine entertainment value, as an SF story. I've been told that there are other stories which successfully exploit this motif as well. Anyone else out there know of similar stories with new twists and insights on such issues??? "The meat is rotten, but the booze is holding out." Computer Translation of "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" Marc ZSTAMIR@WEIZMANN.BITNET ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-spoiler) Date: 10 Mar 85 14:25:04 GMT >I saw "Five Million Years to Earth" quite some time ago, and I >don't remember it too well. I remember mostly the hoaky and/or >silly special effects like the giant devil-insect ghost at the end >and the melting aliens and a few others. "In matters of taste... etc." I didn't think the effects were too bad. I am not fond of the memory video-tape sequence. I did like the energy column at the end, which you don't like." In any case, I like the film for its ideas, not its effects. >Mark's spoiler: "The army, with much trouble, is able to bore a >hole into the inner chamber found in the craft, and inside they >find insect-like inhabitants. Quartermass I did not call him "Quartermass." The name is "Quatermass" with one "r". Of course it is easy to look at something and not really see what's there. >theorizes that they are from Mars and that they had altered the >apes whose fossils were found into evolving toward intelligent >humans." > >Mark's comment to me: "Given the evidence I cannot think of any >time in the film when Quartermass or Roney jump to a wild >conclusion when there is another that is simpler AND more >convincing." > >So anytime an extraterrestrial craft that is 5 million years old is >found, the simplest, most convincing explanation is that the aliens >are from Mars The physical characteristics of the aliens implied a lower gravity and a thinner atmosphere than Earth's. Mars was a logical guess and the only location within our solar system that matched the physical characteristics of the aliens. I think that is pretty good evidence and is no more far-fetched than logical conclusions drawn in many scientific investigations. >and they altered apes into evolving toward intelligent humans. This is really the result of more complex evidence. The apes found at the site fit into the recognized flow of evolution except that their braincases were unaccountably much larger than than their immediate predecessors on the evolutionary tree. The connection of the apes to the craft was explained in my previous mailing. The best protected of them were the ones inside the craft, hence they were contemporaries. The coincidence of the braincases and the alien visitation at the same time leads one to believe the two were connected. As I remember one of the scientists is uneasy about this connection. In either the film or the play, probably both, Roney refers to coincidence as a breeder of false theories. It is a good line. There is further evidence, more abstract and later on, in that the latent telekinetic capabilities of current humans seems to be tied into the alien craft in some unclear manner. There seems to be more going on in the initial contact than just a passing noticing of each other. >A much more complex and unconvincing explanation is that we don't >know where they came from and their reason for being on Earth >probably had nothing to do with the apes. Based on the above, yes. "We don't know where they came from" is not an explanation of anything. It is an obvious step to try to work out where they could have come from, and the best evidence points to Mars. >My swiss cheese memory and Mark's spoiler offer no evidence for >Quartermass to believe the aliens were from Mars, and no evidence >that they had anything to do with the apes except being on Earth at >the same time. I hope the above is helpful. >Perhaps there was something in the movie or in the play to justify >these conclusions, but I don't remember and Mark didn't mention it. >Afterwards, evidence appears to support these wild conclusions, At the time Mars is guessed they already have the braincase evidence and the physical structure of the aliens. They do not mention the conclusion that the aliens altered the humans until after the telekinetic evidence also shows up. Nigel Kneale is a craftsman and sweats the details. If you went to Seacon you saw in what high regard British fans hold him (for very good reason, in my opinion). >and this is the heart of what I was sputtering and flaming about: >crappy "sf" movies often have a scientist make a wild conclusion >and later provide evidence to support it. (I ineloquently phrased >this as "...and this explanation is taken for fact More taken as an operational theory. An when Quatermass tells anyone about it, he qualifies everything he says with "If I'm right...". >for the rest of the movie."). > >There is another example. Mark's spoiler: "Quartermass ... hears >the driller babbling about seeing scenes from another world. His >description seems to be of a race purge of mutants. Quartermass >theorizes that the telekinetic powers and the hatred of anyone >different were invested in us by the aliens and were always with us >more or less dormant. The craft has the power to reawaken them in >us." > >There is no evidence that the telekinetic powers were always with >us more or less dormant. Except that there have been reported cases of it for many years. Why do you think we already have a word for it? This film takes the claims of telekinetic power and treats them as scientific observations. >There is no evidence that hatred of anyone different was invested >in us by the aliens; it may be a trait that we and the aliens >share, to different degrees. I probably agree with you here, since there could be an instinctive basis for it, but since it shows up in both races, Quatermass concludes that it is more than coincidence. >In fact, I kind of remember even the part about >the "description seems to be of a race purge of mutants" to >have been something like (I admit to exaggeration): > >Driller: Thousands of weird aliens being driven out! >They're being killed! > All sorts of havoc and destruction! Quartermass: >Was it some sort of racial purge of mutants? Tell me! >Driller: Babble babble yes! No, I don't think he asked Sladden, the driller, to draw any conclusions. Sladden just describes what he sees. >I think you probably get the idea of what I am flaming at. >Scientist makes wild, unfounded conclusion which is later supported >by evidence not available at the time the conclusion is made. And I agree with the idea of your flame, but I think this was not a film it really applied to. I can think of no other science fiction film in which I think this complex a conclusion is so well reasoned. >In conclusion, I maintain that unless I remember totally >wrong, the "science" put forth in this film is worse than >useless. I think where the film presents science, it is reasonable. Where it presents scientific method it is good. But for the most part it presents speculation and for that I consider the best science fiction film I remember ever seeing. They conclusions it draws are a good distance from our understanding of how things are, but the chain of evidence makes the film plausible. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Mar 85 1008-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #96 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 12 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 96 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Palmer (2 msgs) & Robinson & Vinge & Solar Sailing (3 msgs) & Racial Memory & Group Minds (3 msgs) Films - Brainstorm & Earth II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 11 Mar 85 23:08:18-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Review of "Job" Job: A Comedy of Justice Robert A Heinlein *** Warning: spoiler and literary criticism *** According to his title, RAH has selected two tough acts to follow. James Branch Cabell's "Jurgen" is not - and does not aim to be - a great book, but it is a true philosophical novel, and by a master stylist. Heinlein uses the picaresque style of his model, and in my view to better effect. A traditional SF reader will be irritated by the throwaway descriptions of the many "parallel worlds" in the book; but they serve their purpose, which is to develop the hero, and there is at the end a reasonable justification for largely having ignored them. The trials of his Job are more real, and more relevant, than the adventures of Jurgen. They address the same question - what is the ultimate source of value in human experience - what do we live FOR? Jurgen sought the clue in a fictitious past; Heinlein's Alec seeks it in a parallel present. The book does not have the mannerisms that I have disliked in other works, such as Time Enough for Love or The Number of The Beast. It has very little preaching disguised as dinner-table conversation. It moves. Moreover, its protagonist is not a "competent man". He is, by many standards, a wimp. However, he has an unshakable moral integrity. I was reminded at times of Farnham's Freehold, which showed a man of great competence, but no integrity: here is the antithesis. The novel contains Heaven and Hell, Gods and Devils, but it is not religious. On the contrary: it adheres throughout to the Stoic position that moral value is created only by the free choice of free agents. There are abrupt transitions between parallel worlds, described in traditional SF idiom. And abrupt transitions between heavens and hells, in traditional religious idiom. The shock of the latter led me to reflect on the complacency with which I had accepted the former. My conclusion was that RAH had rehabilitated the character - the "volitional" protagonist - as the centre of attention. Yes, a good book. Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: bothner@Shasta.ARPA Subject: Re: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer Date: 6 Mar 85 23:45:15 GMT I read the 2nd novella "Seeking" last year (so I could vote intelligently for the Hugos), and later the 1st novella. It's a long time since I read anything else so painfully bad. The main problem is the sickeningly cute and precocious writing style. Palmer has a tin ear for language, style and mood. If he's deliberately trying to write that way because he's trying to imitate an 11-year-old genius, that only compounds his crimes (by adding intent to the insult). > I get the feeling Palmer analyzed his intended audience of Analog > readers and concocted a story designed to cater to their tastes. Algis Budry wrote a very entertaining analysis of a phenomenon he called "fannish sf". This is sf which becomes very popular in the fan community, not because of literary qualities, but because it strikes some chord in the fannish psyche. The same novels which win Hugos etc, might leave many people outside fandom totally cold. This controversial article appeared in "The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction", and was reprinted in one of the latest anthologies of "The Best from ...". Budry's analysis was built around a (positive) review of the first volume of Julian May's four-volume "Saga of the Pleistocene Exile", but I think it is even more applicable to Palmer's novel. The obvious point of resonance is that fans (Btw, I'm one myself) consider themselves "the people of the future", homo post hominem, just like Palmer's young heroine. Remember that most of us are intelligent, introverted, over-achievers who can easily project ourselves into this kind of protagonist. I, too, might have enjoyed the story, if only Palmer knew how to use the language. Heinlein had many of the same themes in his novels, which sometimes had similar weaknesses (e.g. Podkayne). But usually, his straightforward writing style made his books enjoyable. Another parallel is the 50's battle cry of "Fans are Slans", inspired by van Vogt's then-popular novel "Slan". --Per Bothner ARPA: bothner@su-score UUCP: ...!{decwrl,ucbvax}!shasta!bothner ------------------------------ From: ra!gail@topaz (Gail B. Hanrahan) Subject: Re: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer Date: 8 Mar 85 21:45:33 GMT The search for Peter Bell was the driving force behind "Seeking" (the novella and the section of the novel Emergence). What happened to Peter Bell? This is never resolved in the book. Will there be a sequel? (I liked the book, but I'm getting awfully tired of sequels...) Gail Bayley Hanrahan Calma Company, San Diego {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail ------------------------------ Date: Fri 8 Mar 85 15:17:49-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: mindkiller I found Mindkiller to be a very amusing book; I have liked everything that Robinson has ever written, to my knowledge. There are various small deficiencies to be found in this book, but all of these are balanced by the climax in the last few pages. The whole thing was obviously slow- motion choreographed by the author, and the sequence of events is so unlikely as to be mandatory in any universe that I would wish to live in. -Laurence ------------------------------ From: ihu1j!gek@topaz (glenn kapetansky) Subject: Snow Queen/World's End Date: 11 Mar 85 18:53:42 GMT I just read Joan Vinge's two books, and I just wanted to put in my two petro-dollars' worth. Snow Queen is kaleidoscopic, and I mean that literally as well as colloquially. The plot lines twist and turn and settle into new patterns, but they all connect subtly to the other lines until they meet at the end. Well done, and enjoyable. I wish I could say the same for World's End. A novel (:-) approach, but poorly done in comparison to Heart of Darkness, which it emulates (see the opening quotes). Maybe I wouldn't be so critical if it didn't aspire so high... glenn kapetansky "Think of it as evolution in action" ...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek ------------------------------ To: MPD%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@mit-multics.arpa Subject: Re: Request for Solar Sailing author Date: 10 Mar 85 09:08:23 PST (Sun) From: Jim Hester "Sunjammer" was a short story written by Arthur C. Clarke in 1964 for "Boy's Life" magazine. I'm not sure under what title it was printed here. It appeared as "Sunjammer" in "The Infinite Arena", ed. by Terry Carr. All stories in this anthology are about SF sporting events: excellent throughout. I would be amazed if this is not readily available. It also appeared with the name "The Wind from the Sun" in a collection of Clarke's short stories titled "The Wind from the Sun". Cordwainer Smith wrote one called "The Lady who Sailed THE SOUL" which discusses the problems of lifestyle for light sailers, and is my favorite romantic SF story. It appears in "Galaxy Magazine" 1963 "The Best of Cordwainer Smith" ed. by J. J. Pierce "Galaxy: Thirty Years of Innovative Science Fiction" ed. by Frederik Pohl I can't think of any other stories offhand that center on light sailing, although I'm pretty sure there are at lease a few others. The following Larry Niven stuff mentions it to some extent: "The Mote in God's Eye" begins with a being showing up in our solar system in a lightsail ship. Several of the "Known Space" series stories mention a beast called a spaceseed that lives in space and travels by natural lightsail. "The Fourth Profession" discusses a race of traders who came to Earth by lightsail. An interesting possible side-effects of this method of travel is brought up. Hope this helps Jim Hester ------------------------------ Subject: Sun Jammer Date: 11 Mar 85 11:52:26 PST (Mon) From: Dave Godwin This was an early Arthur C. Clarke story. It was originally published in ( of all things ) Boy's Life, the Boyscout magazine. The story was later taken intact by Clarke, retitled and republished as the title story in his short story collection 'The Wind From the Sun'. It's probably gotten published elsewhere too, by now. This is one of my favorites. A race between solar-wind powered space craft, yachts on a race twice around the Earth, and then first one to pass Lunar orbit is the winner. I'd almost prefer that to riding the waves out to Catalina and back. But not quite. Dave Godwin Memory and Etc. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 1985 1925 GMT From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. Subject: Solar Sailing Info. In response to the inquiry about solar sailing, you might want to check out the short story "The Fourth Profession" by Larry Niven (I'm not at home, so I may have the title wrong - corrections?) Its about aliens called the Monks who decelerate into the solar system using a light-sail-equipped ship. Bill W. ------------------------------ From: garfield!derek2@topaz (Derek S Keeping) Subject: Re: Pointers please? Date: 8 Mar 85 00:05:11 GMT How about ORN by Piers Anthony. This one dealt with a species of flightless birds that evolved a racial memory as a survival mechanism. Derek S. Keeping {allegra,inhp4,utcsrgv}!garfield!derek2 ------------------------------ From: zaphod!bobd@topaz (Bob Dalgleish) Subject: Re: Group mind Date: 8 Mar 85 20:02:08 GMT > I vaguely recall a story in which a group mind is formed when a > retarded farm hand meets up with a mongoloid child, a child with > telekinetic abilities and a pair of telepathic (naked) twins. I > may have some of the details wrong, but surely someone remembers > the details. I think the story is considered a "classic" - I > certainly consider it so. > -- Scott Turner How classic was it? - Theodore Sturgeon almost made a career of this concept. You're right, it does sound familiar: I vaguely recall one novel and some short stories from the man with this theme. I have no pointers, since I don't keep my SF collection in anything remotely resembling Dewey Decimal notation, but start with his collections. _More_Than_Human_ is the first anthology I would look at - it should have pointers to others. Also, try the gigantic anthology by Anthony Boucher (the name is on the tip of my tongue, it's ... it's ..., oh, you know the one I mean, it comes in two volumes and was offered by the Science Fiction Book Club as their loss leader). Bob Dalgleish ...!alberta!sask!zaphod!bobd ihnp4! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1985 02:38 EST Subject: Group Minds Several people have mentioned @i(More than Human) by Theodore Sturgeon as a story dealing with group minds. Nobody has brought up another Sturgeon story also dealing with group minds: @i(The Cosmic Rape) (published in @i(Galaxy) under the more demure title: ``To Marry Medusa''). This novel deals with a creature (``...call it the Medusa'') that has been travelling from planet to planet, absorbing the inhabitants into its ``hive mind''. At the novel's beginning, it has arrived on Earth and is ready to continue its unbroken record of conquest. However, it faces special problems on Earth, since all the previous species it has conquered have also had group minds. So naturally it sets out to unite all humanity into a single group mind that it can conquer at once... Bob (``Lousy bastits'') Ingria ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Group minds and LeGuin.... Date: 11 Mar 85 20:35:52 EST (Mon) From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford >>From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA >> Ursula LeGuin wrote a short story about a group mind called >> "Vaster than Empires and More Slow". > > As I recall, LeGuin wrote another story called "Nine Lives" that >also explored the group mind concept to some degree. In this one, a >group of nine human clone-siblings (all cloned from the same >parent) are sent to work with a planetary exploration team made up >of basically normal humans. The story depicts the relationship(s) >between the clones as well as how the humans react to them. The >group mind aspects of the story are not dealt with very explicitly, >but the normal folks can't help noticing how connected and in tune >the clones seem to be with each other. Some of them speculate as to >whether the clones represent a true group mind; this possibility is >brought to the fore by the reactions of the clones when some of >their group (the clones) are killed. > > I recommend the story, but I don't know where it can be found >today; I know only that it originally appeared in "Playboy." This is in the same collection as the other story... "The Winds 12 Quarters". -Nancy ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM) Date: 12 Mar 85 02:34:40 GMT > leeper@ahutb.UUCP (m.leeper) writes: >> ... The at-death-experience is one of the least interesting >>implications they could follow. ... > > Oh, come on now. The question of what happens when a man dies can > hardly be considered uninteresting. No, but it is less interesting than any number of other ideas they touched on but passed up. What it would do to our understanding of animal intelligence and psychology would have been more interesting. What it would do to human relations, what it would do to defense technology, what it would do to psychiatric treatment, to the entertainment industry, all these were ideas picked up and then abandoned. By rights, this should have been BRAINSTORM I, first of a long series to how the world would be completely transformed by this one tool. I do find the at-death experience of some interest, but there is so much more that could be done with the premise given time! Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 12 Mar 1985 00:46:32-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: EARTH II > From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA (Brett Slocum) > In regards to Earth II, I thought that this was a movie starring > Gary Lockwood (??) about an astronaut that crash lands on the > duplicate of Earth that orbits the sun directly opposite Earth. > ... This may or may not be Earth II. Please clarify. > > I remember the movie mentioned, about the space station that > disarms a Chinese nuclear warhead. I don't know what it was > called. The latter movie *is* EARTH II, and *it* stars Gary Lockwood. The former movie is one of two possibilities: (1) JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN (1969), starring Roy Thinnes, and produced by Century 21 Productions (Gerry & Sylvia Anderson). (2) THE STRANGER (1973), a made-for-tv movie (pilot for a series that was never made) starring Glenn Corbett, Lew Ayres, and Cameron Mitchell. Both films are set on a world on the opposite side of the sun (Gor?) from the Earth, sharing the same orbit. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Mar 85 1010-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #97 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 13 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 97 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asprin & Female Authors & Book Reviews & Best First SF Book & Best All Time SF Book & Mrs. Coverlet (2 msgs), Films - Nuclear War Films & Five Million Years To Earth & Brainstorm, Television - Dr. Who & V & Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, Miscellaneous - Boskone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: utflis!chai@topaz (Henry Chai) Subject: Yet another Xanth novel Date: 12 Mar 85 02:53:58 GMT Yes folks, Xanth #8 has hit the bookstores already. This one is called "The Crewel Lye" (the cruel lie) and features Jordan the ghost as the central character. I refuse to buy it; I stopped buying after the 6th. I'll just wait for the public libraries to get it, but meanwhile if any of you die-hard Xanth fans out there would like to tell me what you think of it, just mail me; I'll be gald to hear from you. BTW, does anyone find the Xanth novels sexist? I do. The women characters are (almost) always of the pretty, buxom, not-too-bright type, who loved nothing more than to show off their legs or to look for husbands. (Princess Irene is a prime example) The comparison between women and nymphs is also rather degrading to the female sex. However, there is very little sexism in the other Piers Anthony novels, so I wonder whether he did it tongue-in-cheek or not? Henry Chai Faculty of Library and Information Science U of Toronto {decvax, ihnp4, allegra}!utcsri!utflis!chai ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 17:54 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: MythDrawn Comics > Some of the people may dislike Phil Foglio's drawings but at >least they're accurate. On the cover of the Myth books Ahz is >shown as being a lot taller than Skeeve. However, in the book it >mentions that Skeeve is taller than Ahz. It's not only that way on >the first book but also on the second. Surprise! Its also that way in the comic book, draw by... Phil Foglio. Also, the pose of the demon hunter, Quigly or whatever it is, changes while he is supposedly a statue. First, he's chasing the demons when he's hit with the spell, then he's riding his unicorn, and then he's laying with his hands at his sides when the unicorn is dragging him. (In the book (the first one, of course), I think there is actually a point made that Quigly is in a unicorn-riding position while being dragged....) (Incidentally, the comics are not following the books exactly in all cases. There are minor changes, usually for the better, generally adding additional visual humor, although sometimes at the expense of information. Personally, I find that Foglio captures the /spirit/ of MythAdventures as well as anyone, and certainly better than the guy who is illustrating the ACE paperback covers. (The same guy also did the cover of the SFBC omnibus, which was in the same overly realistic style, but better done in my opinion.) > Someone at my local book store told me that the third book (Myth >Directions?) has been out of print for a few months. Could they >be republishing it with Foglio's illustrations? (Personally I hope >so.) Wasn't that one originally illustrated by Foglio? Mark ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Re: C.J.Cherryh, Tanith Lee, and other assorted female SF Subject: authors... Date: 7 Mar 85 20:31:51 GMT >> Your friend is missing out on Vonda McIntyre, Ursula LeGuin, Joan >> Vinge, James Tiptree, Jr., Kate Wilhelm, and many other lesser >> known but still good authors. > > You forgot Joanna Russ!!!! And Ellen Kuttner, Marion Zimmer > Bradley, Diane Duane, R.A. MacAvoy, Sylvia Engdahl, Madeleine > L'Engle, Katherine Kurtz, Jane Yolen, Joan Aiken.....Sorry, I'm > getting carried away. > -Ellen What caught my eye was the mention of Jane Yolan. Wonderful writer! Have you read Cards of Grief?!?! Also, looking more closely at your list, Hardy agreement with, at least, Diane Duane (her first novel, at any rate) and MacAvoy. Also, allow me to recommend Pamela Dean (The Secret Country, Ace, May 1985). -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Mon 11 Mar 85 19:36:21-PST From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: Book reviews: Bradley, Brunner, Van Vogt Here are some reviews of books I have read recently that I haven't seen discussed here on sf-lovers yet... They are all bad... "City of Sorcery", (M Z Bradley) nano-review: ugh, bletch, barf. And boring. I normally like the Darkover books. They are light SF to Fantasy, and generally fun to read. Some people complained about "Thendara House" having too much feminism in it, but I didn't think is was so bad. However, in CoS, MZB goes too far. In theory, it is a sequel to TH, about the Dark Sisterhood that is mentioned occasionally in TH. In reality, this is not SF. Not even Fantasy. It seems to be a sort of gay militant feminist version of "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" (I suppose that may be a little strong.) At least in IJ, the Hero was sort of thrown into circumstances. In CoS, there are lengthy descriptions of reasons that don't seem to make any sense. And you never find out much about the dark sisterhood either. Just an adventure travelogue. Harsh weather, bandits, etc. This is SF? I suppose that CoS could be used as an example of what happens when someone tries to do character development at the expense of everything else, and fails. There are long sections of introspection, if you happen to like that sort of stuff... Sigh. "ComputerWorld" (A.E Van Vogt). Nano-review: ugh, bletch, barf. Internally inconsistant. Van Vogt has a habit of pulling rabits out of hats, and I don't think he's written anything good in a long time. I didn't expect much from CW, but it was worse than that. The premise is that a new "biomagnetic" computer input device allows the USA controlling computer to see peoples souls (which uniquely identifes them). Unfortunately, the process of reading the souls sucks some of it up, so that peoples souls become dimmer and dimmer, and people become less and less moral. An opposing group of people realise this and fight the increasingly brutal people who are running everything. Wait, there's more: As a result of sucking up human souls, the computer itself becomes evil! (Sound like breaking the law of conservation of morality to me!). Anyway, I might have forgiven this unlikely and moderately offensive (to a computer professional) premise had it been handled well, but it wasn't. There are glaring errors like a computer pickup being audio-only one chapter, and full visual the next, and a silly romance, and the whole thing is just silly. On the positve side, it isn't as boring as CoS, or as long. If you have nothing better to do, reading the library's copy of this might be worth the trouble, just for the amusement... "The Tides of Time" (John Brunner) Nano-review: ugh. Weird. This was the best of the three books, and ties in with the discussion of Brunner that has been going on recently. Brunner seems to have changed styles recntly, and has been writing really weird books recently. "Players at the Game of People" was another weird book. "Crucible of Time" was comparatively normal, if not very good (I thought the aliens were much too human-like). The good thing is that Brunner writes well, even when the story lacks... In tToT, you get about 8 chapters about this couple, each of which is one month in the future, and a couple hunder years in the past. About the only reason that you know this is SF is that you know that the chapters are related, and that they are the same people, and something strange is happening to them. Everything is explained in the last couple of chapters, in the "sort of" way JB frequently explains things. In all, its a relatively interesting premise, done in a wierd style that I didn't think worked very well... I wish he'd write another (long) book on the order of SoZ, SR, tSLU, or tJO - perhaps he got discouraged because his scenarios now seem way too pessimistic. he was really worried about the nuclear (war) threat when he spoke at the 83 worldcon, so maybe he'll write about that. BillW PS Ive read some books that I liked recently too, maybe I'll review them in another message shortly... ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Book Review: Emergence by David R. Palmer Date: 7 Mar 85 21:12:50 GMT > From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH > Do other people have their choices for best first novel? > Possibilities that come to mind are Brin, Varley, and Forward. Some possibilities that come to mind are Diane Duane's DOOR INTO (FIRE? SHADOW?) Dammit, which one came first? and MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON. However, I think it comes down to two other possibilities: Pamela Dean's THE SECRET COUNTRY and Roger Zelazny's AND CALL ME CONRAD (aka THIS IMMORTAL). - SKZB ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner (some SPOILER included) Date: 7 Mar 85 20:38:27 GMT >Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best >SF Book of all time . >-Julian Long No. The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger Zelazny. It is also the best English Language book written in the twentieth century. An argument of best SF book of all time could be made for Twain's Connecticut Yankee. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: ukma!red@topaz (Red Varth) Subject: Re: Malcom, Molly, and Toad. . . Date: 11 Mar 85 20:55:26 GMT There are two books about these characters that I know of: While Mrs. Coverlet was Away and Mrs. Coverlet's Magicians No spoilers offered or given; it's been a LOOOOOOOOONG time since I read these. PS: I still have them if you're interested in buying 'em. Red ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 10:18 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Mrs. Coverlet and the kids >> Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of >> children's books about three siblings, two male and one female, >> of whom the older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger, >> Theodore, is known as "The Toad". The kids have a dowager >> mentor, Mrs. Dextrose-Chesapeake, > > The book with the mail-order voodoo kit is > _Mrs._Coverlet's_Magicians_ (I have no idea who the author was). > I loved it, about 20 years ago, but never found the earlier book > (the one about the cat). > -Neil Faiman I also had the pleasure of reading one of the Mrs. Coverlet books in the early 60s, "While Mrs. Coverlet Was Away." As I recall, the jovial housekeeper (for such was Mrs. C's role; I forget what happened to the kids' parents) had to go off somewhere for the summer. Another older woman was supposed to stay with the kids, but somehow they managed to spend the entire summer alone. Toad and his sister (whose name escapes me) had a generally great time, but Malcolm (he of the "complicated conscience") spent a large portion of the book brooding about the implications of this youthful anarchy. I can't remember the author's name, but it's nice to know that the book I read was part of a series. This was very good stuff. ------------------------------ From: abnji!nyssa@topaz (nyssa of traken) Subject: Re: Nuclear War films - *NOT* THREADS Date: 11 Mar 85 19:29:51 GMT Has anybody seen the Japanese movie on nuclear war that was first broadcast last year? Anybody know how to get it? Send mail, and I will post (if I get anything) James C Armstrong, Jnr. {ihnp4||allegra||mcnc||cbosgb}!abnji!jca ------------------------------ From: siemens!steve@topaz Subject: Re: FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH (super-s Date: 12 Mar 85 13:59:00 GMT Well, you sure told me! I remember that when I saw Quatermass (see, only one R) and the Pit, I thought it was yet another scientist-makes-wild-conclusions movie, and Mark's spoiler actually supported that memory. I stand corrected. -Steve Clark ps. I still loathe those odious movies, but I have to remove this one from that category. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13-Mar-85 01:41:52 PST From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: "Brainstorm" Actually, one of the sad things "about" the film was that so many people got the impression that it was the first time anybody thought of such a concept. Most people watching the film were unaware of the long history in SF relating to such concepts, including a number of works that directly dealt with sexual "applications" of the technology. By the way, one of the truly laughable sub-concepts in the film was the sending of the brain data over acoustic modems. It seemed particularly odd that you'd need such "fancy" recording media for a signal that would fit into a telephone call's bandwidth. I agree fully that the film dwelled too long on the "life after death" aspects. But it should be noted that the film was rather fragmented and almost never released due to the untimely death that occurred during shooting. It's pretty remarkable that they were able to splice something even reasonably coherent together given the circumstances. In fact, the film came very, very close to never being finished. --Lauren-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 08:25 PST From: Wahl.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Dr Who companions By far, my favorite is Leela. As a warrior, depending on instinct and intuition, she made a perfect foil for the Doctor. And she seems to be the Doctor's favorite, too: his frequent reference to K-9 as is "second best friend" implies Leela as his first. Also, he seemed more upset about her departure than that of any other companion. Other favorites are Adric and Harry Sullivan. I dislike the Romanas for the same reason Richard likes them -- too much like the Doctor. --Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 20:06 CDT From: David_Lagrone Subject: David Whitney and "V" What's wrong with lizard creatures? It just takes longer to get into your makeup. I probably agree that this is not particularly good Science Fiction; however, I consider it significantly more enjoyable that "OtherWorld". Too bad the writers "blew it all" on the first episode. David LaGrone lagrone%ti-eg@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Mar 85 20:13 CDT From: David_Lagrone Subject: Overdrawn At The Memory Bank I know that this is quite late; however, I want to get my vote in for "Overdrawn At The Memory Bank". I am not a Science Fiction critic -- I just know what I like. And I like this one. Glad to add it to the ole tape library! Any more like this one? David LaGrone lagrone%ti-eg@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Boskone Date: 7 Mar 85 21:48:08 GMT > From: Marla (Selinger@Ru-Blue) > "I also was informed several times that the lousy > film/video schedule was deliberate, because they > didn't want riff-raff (no not him!) off the streets > coming in just to see the movies." > > Hmm, I had thought the quality of this year's schedule was far > below last year's. If true, this reason is inexcusable. That's > what BADGES are for! To keep the riff-raff out, or at least to > get $22 out of him first! > > Well, I'll give them one more try next year... > Marla I have some sympathy with a desire to a convention that is short on attendence by those who are fans only of media SF. It would seem that a way to do that would be to cut out the film program. Having a bad film program would seem foolish. -- SKZB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Mar 85 1115-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #98 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 15 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 98 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Wrede & Solar Sailing (2 msgs) & Group Minds (2 msgs) & Nebula Awards Anthology & Mrs. Coverlet (2 msgs), Films - Genetic Engineering & Buckaroo Banzai & Testament, Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz (iannucci) Subject: Review wanted: # of the Beast Date: 14 Mar 85 01:59:01 GMT I'd be interested to know what those of you who have read Robert Heinlein's _Number_of_the_Beast_ thought of it. It looks like a very interesting book to me, and a friend who read it a few years ago raved about it. Please mail to me, and I'll summarize to the net if the opinions are strong enough. -Thanks Dave Iannucci St. Joseph's University, Philadelphia ...{allegra|astrovax|bpa|burdvax}!sjuvax!iannucci ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 01:02 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Review of "The Harp of Imach Thyssel" Patricia C. Wrede Review of The Harp of Imach Thyssel, Patricia C. Wrede This is the fifth book by Patricia, and she seems to keep getting better! Her books seem to be characterized by good plots, believable characters, and some of the very best prose you can find today! The background to the story is believable and detailed! This is not to say the book is perfect. The main character never gets a chance to develop significantly, and I wish this, like so many of the other best fantasy books today, would stop using the main character who is seemingly oblivious to the relationship forming between him and the female lead. ::SPOILER WARNING!! Emereck the minstrel is friends with a prince of a land who is being attacked by neighbors. He finds one of the Lost Gifts of Alkyra, the Harp of Imach Thyssel. This legendary harp has great powers but is said to cause injury to anyone who uses it (sound familiar?). Several of the great powers of the world (one each, good, evil, and neutral) are trying to get the harp for themselves. There is a happy ending, but I won't say more about it. Some of the best things about the book: The prince has one of the best secondary characters I have seen in a long time. Too bad he doesn't stick around longer. While individual elements are similar to other fantasy, the total blend of story is well done. The real villians, and heroes are not revealed instantly, but develop as the book progresses. The background to the story is detailed and intricate, and offer good support to the story. Unfortunately the background is so interesting, the reader wishes more of the background was revealed. Final summary: Buy this Book! Read it! I remain: John R. Mellby Texas Instruments JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ From: utzoo!kcarroll@topaz (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: Re: Sunj jammers Date: 12 Mar 85 18:30:41 GMT Actually, I think that "Sunjammer" was the title that Clarke >wanted< to use for his story about a solar-sail race to the moon's orbit; however, the title had already been used by Winston P. Sanders (Saunders?) for a story in Analog, around about 1962 (it's the cover story for one of the "bedsheet-sized" issues from that time). The operative phrase here is "I think". If I'm wrong, then mail me (not the newsgroup!!!), and I'll post a correcting message. Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 85 10:29:18 PST (Thursday) From: Michael Tallan Subject: Re: Request for Solar Sailing stories A story on solar sailing that no one has mentioned yet is "Sail 25" by Jack Vance. It has appeared in several of his anthologies, most recently in "The Best of Jack Vance". I saw this book in a local store just yesterday so it is probably still available elsewhere. -- Michael Tallan ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Group mind (actually about Anthony Boucher anthology) Date: 12 Mar 85 10:43:51 GMT Bob Dalgleish wonders what was the name of the gigantic anthology edited by Anthony Boucher some time ago. I believe it is called THE TREASURY OF SCIENCE FICTION and while I don't have a copy of my own to verify this, I remember it vividly from having read it in the school library in junior high (in Hong Kong, of all places). It had some wonderful things collected in it -- whole novels, not just stories. Pieces like BRAIN WAVE by Poul Anderson (where it is discovered that stupidity is an artifact of some strange cosmic radiation, which vanishes and leaves everyone normal); THE [WIDGET], THE [WADGET], AND BOFF by Theodore Sturgeon (a very funny and very sentimental story, classic Sturgeon); RE-BIRTH by John Wyndham (his best novel, in my opinion -- published in England as THE CHRYSALIDS); 'Mimsy Were the Borogoves' by 'Lewis Padgett' (another classic); 'Gomez' by Cyril Kornbluth; and (I think) A. E. Van Vogt's THE WEAPON SHOPS OF ISHER. (Well, how many of these did I get right?) These two volumes were primarily responsible for my getting lured into science fiction... If you're unfamiliar with these classics, you really are deprived. The book Scott Turner is asking about is surely Sturgeon's MORE THAN HUMAN. A superlative book -- Sturgeon's best novel, I think. While typing the preceding paragraph I was trying to remember the names of all three novellas in it and for some reason could come up with only two: 'And Baby Is Three' (almost certainly the story you remember) and 'Morality'. These present a much more interesting portrait of 'homo superior' than is found in a book debated over here recently, EMERGENCE by David R. Palmer. To say that MORE THAN HUMAN is Sturgeon's best novel is a bit discriminatory against his other novels such as THE DREAMING JEWELS, VENUS PLUS X, [WIDGET] and others, which are mostly excellent as well. One of my favorite Sturgeon novels is very hard to find and is (I think) amazingly good in spite of its obscurity; it's called SOME OF YOUR BLOOD and makes the recent rash of vampire novels which rationalize the existence of such creatures look rather silly. Now I'll have to go home and dig these books out, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@topaz (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Re: Group mind Date: 12 Mar 85 06:03:56 GMT Leonard Wibberley wrote a really great kids' sf book called Encounter Near Venus which has a group mind made up of critters called "lumens" which are little lights which live in the Seesuch, which is the ocean of Nede, which is a satellite of Venus. It's a very improbable and entertaining book, especially if you are into things like baby gorgons and multicolored Popsicle-flavored crystal cliffs and centaurs with Liverpool accents. Fun stuff. -- Ellen ------------------------------ From: homxa!loucl@topaz (L.CHANLIZAROO) Subject: Nebula Awards anthology 17? Date: 12 Mar 85 18:42:10 GMT I am looking for the Nebula Award anthology 17. I believe book 16 was edited by Herbert or Pournelle, and book 18 was editied by Silverberg. Could somebody please tell me if book 17 exists at all, who the editor is, and is it available in hard, trade or paper back form? Thanks in advance. Please MAIL all responses. louis chan ..!ihnp4!homxa!loucl "Don't blame me, I'm just putting my 2 cents in!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue 12 Mar 85 19:40:43-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #91--story request /amqueue writes: >Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of children's >books about three siblings, two male and one female, of whom the >older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger, Theodore, is known as >"The Toad". The kids have a dowager mentor, Mrs. >Dextrose-Chesapeake, and a male tortoise-shell cat, coveted by Mrs. >D-C due to its genetic impossibility. The Toad engages in such >unsavory activities as writing semi-obscene filks to "Good King >Wenceslaus" and practicing home voodoo with a kit ordered through a >comic book ad (the kit works). I know of two, the earlier of which details how Toad got the cat. The "mentor" is no such thing, she's a nosy old biddy who lives next door. The second book, in which Toad becomes a voodoo practitioner, is _Mrs. Coverlet's Magicians_. Mrs. Coverlet is the maid who takes care of the three sibs (the girl's name is Janet, by the way), while their father, a drug company salesman, is gone for extended periods. The first book had Mrs. Coverlet's name in the title as well, but as my copy is located somewhere east of the continental divide, it's hard to check on it. The first book dealt with a wonderful potion Toad brewed for his cat, which made everyone who used it wonderfully healthy. He sold it for $1 a bottle. It turned out that he was including his father's vitamin samples as a major "secret ingredient," thus losing about $2 on every transaction. I understand he is now working for the Pentagon. Rich Alderson ------------------------------ From: ihuxb!alle@topaz (Allen England) Subject: Re: Mrs. Coverlet and the kids Date: 13 Mar 85 18:46:12 GMT >> Can anyone identify the titles or author of a series of >> children's books about three siblings, two male and one female, >> of whom the older boy is named Malcolm, and the younger, >> Theodore, is known as "The Toad". The kids have a dowager >> mentor, Mrs. Dextrose-Chesapeake, > > The book with the mail-order voodoo kit is > _Mrs._Coverlet's_Magicians_ > > I also had the pleasure of reading one of the Mrs. Coverlet books > in the early 60s, "While Mrs. Coverlet Was Away." I can't > remember the author's name, but it's nice to know that the book I > read was part of a series. This was very good stuff. I read really liked this series also. The author's name is Mary Nash. Marguerite (*not* Allen) ...!ihnp4!iwpbd!maggie2 ------------------------------ From: ur-cvsvax!gary@topaz (Gary Sclar) Subject: Hollywood takes on genetic engineering Date: 13 Mar 85 16:05:47 GMT The march 15 issue of 'Science' magazine reports that a new movie being made in Hollywood, 'Warning Sign', will deal with the issue of what happens when genetic engineering experiments 'get out of hand'; movie is to star Sam Waterson and Kathleen Quinlan and is described as 'a high-tech thriller...dealing with the raw emotions of scientists (and technicians) who suddenly find themselves sealed in their fortress-like lab with an experiment that has gotten out of control. Pressed a bit more Hollis (the publicist for the movie) said that the scientists are experimenting with plants and then somehow a mutant human being is created.' Gang; this is immediately obvious as a movie to avoid unless you're into giant carnivorous carrots (didn't someone do that already back in the 50's?). {...!seismo!rochester!ur-cvsvax!gary} g. Sclar @ Center for Visual Science University of Rochester, Rochester, N. Y., 14627 ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Newsletter #2 Date: 11 Mar 85 20:24:13 GMT Just in from the Banzai Institute - The BANZAI INSTITUTE is pleased to announce that it is now accepting applications for membership in -- THE BLUE BLAZE IRREGULARS The official Buckaroo Banzai Fan club! If you would like to receive exclusive information on the Institute, Dr. Banzai and the Hong Kong Cavaliers, the activities of TEAM BANZAI and the filmmakers they chose to tell their story, then side yourself with Buckaroo against the World Crime League and WRITE TODAY!! THE BANZAI INSTITUTE c/o 20th Century Fox P.O. Box 900 Beverly Hills, CA 90213 Remember, 20th Century Fox is watching the box-office and letter response in order to decide on further funding for BANZAI -- So go out there and show 'em what you want!! Tell 'em you heard it on the NET. They're looking forward to hearing from you! ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz Subject: Re: TESTAMENT Date: 11 Mar 85 17:49:10 GMT Frankly, I couldn't care less whether or not TESTAMENT was an accurate scientific description of the after-effects of a nuclear war. That wasn't the point of the movie at all. TESTAMENT tried to show why nuclear war is bad idea, by showing the effect of the war on one person and her family. A depiction of nuclear winter might move you to stand against nuclear war, but for me, the scenes where the little boy died and where the recording is discovered on the answering machine are much more likely to change my emotions and political stance. A film is hard-pressed to make a statement on broad, general issues without showing how those issues become personal. -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 85 16:53:41 EST (Thursday) Subject: Re: Dr Who companions From: Brenda I second the vote for Leela as favorite. The first time I saw her (it was also one of the first times I saw Dr.Who) she was wearing her "bikini" and all of my feminist instincts were entirely revolted (the comments by the guys watching with me didn't help!). But Leela fast became my favorite. I especially like the way she grows during the episodes. My second favorite is Romana II. I thought that she was the one the Dr. always had a special soft spot for. I liked their relationship. (S.o. mentioned the actress who played her was once Mrs. Tom Baker. Is this true??) My LEAST favorite was Romana I -- obnoxious, know-it-all, -- everything Tom Baker plays with a charming lovableness and grace that makes one forgive all. To me, this actress was entirely lacking, any sympathetic qualities. NOTE: Tom Baker is the only Dr. I've ever seen. I love the character of the Dr., but I was thinking that in real life people with his personality drive me crazy. I can't stand being around them. Has anyone else ever thought about this? Of course, I have never met someone with his superiority complex that actually IS right all of the time and superior in the way TimeLords are to us earthlings. ~Brenda ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Dr. Who companions Date: 14 Mar 85 18:50:57 PST (Thu) From: Alastair Milne How could you leave out Sarah Jane Smith !!??!! Introduced on various occasions by the Doctor as "my best friend" (eg, in Seeds of Doom); a journalist; independent and high-spirited; rescued him on a couple of occasions; and, on at least one occasion, blew him a raspberry when she thought he needed it. Nothing like his technical ability (which Romana had), but she at least knew what "proficient" meant (which Leela didn't): a good foil, but not too much of one. I don't have a favourite companion, since there are things about all of them that I like (even Harry, though he was surely one of the most ineffectual), but Sarah is certainly one of the best. (And if you thought the Doctor looked upset when he said "Good-bye, Savage," at the end of Invasion of Time (to Leela), how about his leave-taking of Sarah at the end of Hand of Fear? He was not at all pleased, and neither was she. In fact, I really expected him to come back to pick her up again, after he had finished with Gallifrey. Which shows what I knew of the rest of the series at the time.) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 18 Mar 85 0933-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #99 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 85 0933-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #99 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 99 Today's Topics: Books - Tepper & Wrede & Best First Novel (3 msgs) & Computers in SF & Solar Sailing (2 msgs), Films - Brainstorm (2 msgs), Television - V (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Imp of the Perverse ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz (Steven Brust) Subject: Sheri Tepper Date: 14 Mar 85 15:10:39 GMT > I just read _THE SONG OF MAVIN MANYSHAPED_ by Sheri Tepper, a > prequel to the TRUE GAME series. I found the book better than the > TRUE GAME books. I think Tepper has learned to write a bit better > and to construct a plot much better. I recommend the book. > > -- Scott Turner I enjoyed the TRUE GAME series quite a bit. Good, fun adventure fantasy, with enough interesting ideas to keep my head busy. She IS, I think, improving as a writer, but from the beginning she kept you turning the pages, which is more than I can say for many established pros. --SKZB ------------------------------ From: nsc!glenn@topaz (Glenn Skinner) Subject: Re: Review of "The Harp of Imach Thyssel" Patricia C. Wrede Date: 17 Mar 85 22:51:33 GMT >From: John_Mellby >Review of The Harp of Imach Thyssel, Patricia C. Wrede >This is the fifth book by Patricia, and she seems to keep getting >better! Her books seem to be characterized by good plots, >believable characters, and some of the very best prose you can find >today! The background to the story is believable and detailed! He then goes on to make more detailed points. I also am fresh from reading the book. I came away from it feeling quite disappointed. I felt the plot and characterizations to be fair at best. My disappointment was probably heightened by contrast with two other books I've read in the past couple weeks. The first is _The Black Company_, by Glen Cook. Both Wrede and Cook are new authors for me -- I picked up both books as experiments, hoping that I'd find gems. Cook fared better in the comaprison. Although Wrede's prose style is superior (based only on the books under discussion), Cook's plot was more inventive (though not very inspired either) and his characterizations better. However, both books pale by comparison to _The Infinity Concerto_, by Greg Bear. This book is far superior to the others in prose style, plot, and characterization. Both this book and Wrede's feature heroes who are initially callow and naive. Wrede's character remains static, and is none the wiser at the end of his adventures. On the other hand, Bear's hero undergoes genuine and believable growth, maturing from a fumbling adolescent to a self-assured adult. I won't attempt to summarize the plot; it's too rich for me to do it justice and a surface description would fail to convey the lushness of texture of the story's setting. I recommend the book highly. -- Glenn Skinner ------------------------------ From: x!wjr@topaz (Bill Richard) Subject: Re: Best First Novel Date: 13 Mar 85 22:29:54 GMT > From: Hank.Walker@CMU-CS-UNH > Do other people have their choices for best first novel? > Possibilities that come to mind are Brin, Varley, and Forward. How about Delany's THE JEWELS OF APTOR? William J. Richard @ Charles River Data Systems 983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701 Tel: (617) 626-1112 uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Date: 14 Mar 85 19:04:09 PST (Thu) From: Alastair Milne >>Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best >>SF Book of all time . >>-Julian Long > >No. The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger >Zelazny. It is also the best English Language book written in the >twentieth century. An argument of best SF book of all time could >be made for Twain's Connecticut Yankee. > > -- SKZB The best English language book of the 20th century is very probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". Absolutely masterful. A work both of writing and creation that has become the standard by which such works are measured. When a publisher really wants to turn heads for a fantasy book, he puts on the cover something like "a new rival for The Lord of the Rings", which is almost universally false, but eye-catching. Tolkien held the chair in English at Merton College in Oxford for many years, was a master of Middle English and a prolific writer. His qualifications for use of English go far beyond those of any sf-author I have ever heard of, even my absolute favourites, and his writings and poetry prove it. So I would want to see *very* convincing evidence of Lord of Light's claim before I would even consider ranking Zelazny with Tolkien. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Date: 16 Mar 85 18:05:29 GMT >Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best >SF Book of all time . >>No. The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger >>Zelazny. It is also the best English Language book written in the >>twentieth century. >>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very >>>probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". Why so many people in this group and others feel compelled to make statements about the "best X of all times" is beyond me. Have you people read every SF book ever written, and read them critically so you're prepared to defend statements like this? How many books outside the SF genre have you read? Do you sincerely think ANYONE (professional critics included) is qualified to talk about "the best English language book of the 20th century?" At least the last poster qualifies his/her claim of excellence with 'probably.' But probably in what sense? Because s/he thinks it's the best? Because it's generally acknowledged to be the best book of the century by critics, friends, other SF fans, or what? Please, people, you're just begging for flames with postings like this. Each of us has books/films/songs that he or she is particularly fond of, but personal preference may have little to do with how well a particular work is received by other readers/viewers/listeners. You can save yourself trouble by qualifying your claims with a simple "in my opinion" or "the best I've ever." Enough said. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly University of North Carolina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 01:00 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Review of "Random Access Messages" R.A.M. Random Access Messages of the Computer Age Thomas F. Monteleone, ed. This is a new trade paperback anthology containing 18 short stories about computers. I bought this just after having re-read True Names and was very hopeful about the contents being good science fiction about computers. Unfortunately I was disappointed. This is surprising since the authors include Asimov, Benford, Dickson, Clarke, Zelazny and Ellison. Actually the stories by the most well-known authors are good since they are generally reprints of old classic stories like "The Last Question - Asimov", "Computers Don't Argue - Dickson" and "The Nine Billion Names of God - Clarke". I was expecting the newer stories to reflect interesting ramifications of the increasing usage of computers. Instead they were uniformly computer horror stories. About half the stories had the plot: Computer becomes aware, computer does something unpleasant to humans. This can be interesting once, but 10 times? It seems the self-aware and malicious computer has become the "Deal with the Devil" plot of the 80's. I remain: John R. Mellby Texas Instruments JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 17:38:00 EST From: "Cyril N. Alberga" From: Subject: Solar sailing One so-far unmentioned novel including solar sailing is "The Legend of Miaree" by Zach Hughes. My copy is Ballantine 23888, ISBN 345-23888-5-125, April, 1974. **** Spoiler ***** It is a telling of the (possibly mythical) destruction of a exotic alien race. I haven't read the story in years, but it seems to me that the motivaion was not exactly clear. The race in question had moved wholesale from their home planet to others in their solar system, but the young (larval stage) could only grow on the home world. They used solar sailing ships to "go home", and also for sport and general transportation. Cyril N. Alberga ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: Request for Solar Sailing stories Date: 16 Mar 85 21:05:15 GMT Michael Tallan writes: > A story on solar sailing that no one has mentioned yet is "Sail > 25" by Jack Vance. This is also in the Asimov/Greenberg/Waugh anthology "The Seven Deadly Sins of Science Fiction". "Sail 25" is the only story I've read for quite some time where something called a "computer" can be put out of action by a damaged bearing... Mark Brader ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM) Date: 15 Mar 85 19:07:13 GMT leeper@ahutb.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: >> > ... The at-death-experience is one of the least interesting >> >implications they could follow. ... >> >> Oh, come on now. The question of what happens when a man dies can >> hardly be considered uninteresting. > >No, but it is less interesting than any number of other ideas they >touched on but passed up. What it would do to our understanding of >animal intelligence and psychology would have been more interesting. Would you rather know (a) how/what/if a chimpanzee thinks? -or- (b) if there is life after death, and if so, what is it like? For me the answer is clear. Do you REALLY care more about how an animal thinks? If you say so, I'll believe you, but I can't help but find it a rather odd outlook on life (we'll continue this discussion in Heaven :-). >What it would do to human relations, what it would do to defense >technology, what it would do to psychiatric treatment, to the >entertainment industry, all these were ideas picked up and then >abandoned. By rights, this should have been BRAINSTORM I, first of >a long series to how the world would be completely transformed by >this one tool. I do find the at-death experience of some interest, >but there is so much more that could be done with the premise given >time! Exactly the point. No doubt there are any number of fascinating ideas that arise from positing a device like the one in BRAINSTORM, and an exposition of these might provide material for a good series of speculative articles, or as material for developing a future world in which to write science fiction stories. However... When it actually comes to writing one of those stories, you must concentrate on some facet of the phenomenon. Trying to cover them all in a series of ten movies is a silly idea. Further, to make your movie popular and enjoyable to a wide audience, you'd like to pick a ramification of the device that everyone can relate to. You might have a personal interest in animal psychology (particularly if you teach freshman computer science :-), but it is unlikely to be as embracing a topic as the life after death experience, since everyone gives serious thought to that subject at least occasionally. All of this isn't to say that you can't make an interesting movie about animal psychology. TARZAN, LORD OF THE APES did that to some extent. I'm only pointing out that it is a much more difficult task. And why complicate your task when you have a better topic at hand? I think that the choice to focus on the life after death experience was the right one, but I also agree that there are many other interesting ideas inherent in the story. -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Chimpanzees vs Life after Death Date: 16 Mar 85 03:50:45 GMT I expect to find out eventually whether there is life after death and if so, what it is like. (Either that or to find out how to achieve immortality, which might be interesting too.) I do NOT expect to find out someday what it's like to be a chimpanzee. (Maybe some reincarnationists do, of course.) So merely on the basis of what will be eventually knowable.... --Lee Gold ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 10:43 EST From: Mark F. Rand Subject: V Does anyone who still watches V notice that in the few scenes when a Visitor's mask is removed, the lizard head revealed seems larger than the way it looked when masked..?? It seems that there should be a way to make the lizard head look smaller. And another thing... Where are all the other mother ships???? In the beginning sequence it's mentioned that there are 15 ships.. Well one was destroyed in the 2nd(??) episode, but that still leaves 14.. It seems that that should give the visitors enough fire power to take over.. Even with the "Red Dust"(though why the Visitors haven't come up with an antidote seems a mystery)they could still fly around in their ships(which are airtight for space-flight)shooting up cities.. It seems to me that V is a SF soap opera.. See ya Mark Rand ------------------------------ Date: 17 Mar 85 16:33:34 EST From: The Little Guy Subject: Re: V David Lagrone writes: "What's wrong with Lizard Creatures? It just takes longer to put on your makeup..." I wonder if David likes the series? I, personally, am getting a little (if not a lot) nauseated with the prospect of watching one hour of the madcap cavortings of a group of starving LIZARDS. eliot lear [LEAR@RU-GREEN [allegra!topaz!{ru-blue,ru-green}!lear] @RU-BLUE @NB.ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Mar 85 03:37:50 PST From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: the Imp of the Perverse As to what the Imp of the Perverse has to do with Murphy's Law.... Christopher Stasheff wrote a book called "The Warlock Unlocked", in the Warlock/Gramarye series (the other books are "The Warlock in Spite of Himself" and "King Kobold" (which was rewritten and called "King Kobold Revived")). One of the major characters in this book is a priest of the order of Saint Vidicon of Cathode, a new saint in the Catholic church. Saint Vidicon was originally Father Vidicon; he died using his body as a load resistor for some flaky equipment (all their backups blew) during a broadcast of vital importance to the Church. People started praying to him for technology-related matters and when these prayers started getting answered, Father Vidicon eventually became Saint Vidicon. The Imp of the Perverse was Father Vidicon's favorite anthropomorphism of Murphy's Law. The usual prayer to Saint Vidicon is Saint Vidicon, preserve us from Murphy! (or ....from the Imp of the Perverse!). der Mouse ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Mar 85 0952-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #100 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 100 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Farmer & Foster & Leinster & Van Vogt & Varley (2 msgs) & Group Minds (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaphod!bobd@topaz (Bob Dalgleish) Subject: Re: new book by Shetterly Date: 14 Mar 85 01:11:59 GMT > At last able to put down _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ by Will * Shetterly, > I can now recommend it (it's hard to type and read at the same > time). L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot I must admit that the reviewers for the cover blurb (Brust and ???), put me off a bit when it was revealed that they and the author had cooperated in several workshops and publishing houses. However, I liked Brust's stories (_Jhereg_ and _Rendl_(sp)) very much. I don't know about ???. I hope that this talented group of people start a new culture of fantasy: where rules are set down so that they can be broken with anguish by the characters, where good guys (and the reader) are misled, and characters willing give up their (god-given) powers. Marvelous!!! I am always glad to see almost-mainstream quality fantasy. [The opinions expressed here are only loosely based on the facts] Bob Dalgleish ...!alberta!sask!zaphod!bobd ihnp4! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 20:28 EST From: Richard Subject: Phillip Jose Farmer request. Has anybody heard about anything new from Farmer! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 20:28 EST From: Richard Subject: Alan Dean Foster Spellsinger series The latest Spellsinger (Moment of the Magician) by Foster is enjoyable but not equal to the first three. ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) Subject: In defense of Murray Leinster Date: 10 Mar 85 07:24:55 GMT >From: Alderson@Score >Regarding Piers Anthony: _Sos, the Rope_ was acceptable, as was the >first Xanth novel (although the puns were painful, they were >non-obvious). The Juxtaposition trilogy was much better. The rest >of his stuff is schlock, like that of Herbert (excepting only DUNE) >or Murray Leinster. I disagree. Murray Leinster was a master of the sf problem story (wherein you give a man a problem, and the story grows from his working it out). He was always able to come up technical solutions that sounded so plausible that you wondered if they might not actually work. The greatest example of this side of Leinster comes in _Colonial Survey_, possibly his best book. I have never seen a copy of this for sale, but try your older libraries (and look under Jenkins in the stuffier ones). His Med service books are also well worth finding. Of course, his most famous story "First Contact" is a pure problem story also. Leinster had something few sf authors have, a readily identifiable style. There are very few sf writers whose works you can pick up, read a few paragraphs and guess the author (Vance and Lafferty come easily to mind) Leinster was one of them. He wrote with deceptive simplicity, getting his ideas across in a no nonsense manner. Sometimes you could even tell a Leinster story by the title; I remember some years ago buying an old issue of Astounding and seeing a story title in the "Analytical Laboratory" (where stories from previous issues were rated) called "The Ambulance Made Two Trips", and betting, before looking, who the author had been. I know some people can't abide his style, but I really enjoy it. Leinster's work had something else I value highly: the idea that problems are solvable. His heroes might have to battle the powers that be ("Brass Hats" he called them once), but reason would prevail; there was very little that a man who thought things through could not accomplish. Although Leinster's Catholic faith started to show through in some of his later books, they were still all arguments for the progress of the human race through reason. His just reissued _The Forgotten Planet_ is almost a parable of mans ascent by virtue of mind (though the Burl is by no means a superman, Leinster was aware as well of the drives of vanity and power). He wasn't perfect, or course, he never could handle man/woman relationships very convincingly, and his women were rarely problem solvers themselves. (This probably comes from the attitudes of his childhood years; he wrote for a long,long time). What should you read of Leinster's? Well, you probably won't have much choice. The only book of his that I know is in print now is _The Forgotten Planet_, which is not his best work, but is worth having. (It is a hardback in some classic reissue series; the same one to finally reissue Harness' _The Paradox Men_). Not too many years ago, Del Rey put out _The Best of Murray Leinster_, which can probably be found in used book stores still. As I recall, an omnibus edition of the Med series was also recently done. His short stories are widely anthologized in the older anthologies. One of my personal favorites, "Keyhole" is one of the more often collected. Aside from that, you'll just have to trust to luck, but he wrote so many books that odds are you'll find something. Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Mar 85 20:15:04 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: The weapon shops of Isher I believe this was a short story before being fluffed out as a novel. I also remember a sequel which was considerably worse. ------------------------------ From: hpfcla!dat@topaz (dat) Subject: 'Millenium' by John Varley, anyone? Date: 12 Mar 85 01:24:00 GMT I'm in the middle of reading 'Millenium' by John Varley and am very impressed with the writing and more especially, with the creative juices that must have been flowing to write such a fascinating tale! Get it and read it if you haven't!!! But...does anyone have any other comments on either 'Millenium' or anything else by Varley? What of the 'Titan' (etc etc - can't think of the titles of the other books) and so on series? I thought they were a good read, but as you got further along in the series it got weaker and weaker... Sending it out at 19.2K baud, Dave Taylor ------------------------------ From: hpfclg!bayes@topaz (bayes) Subject: Re: 'Millenium' by John Varley, anyone? Date: 7 Mar 85 15:37:00 GMT Funny, Dave, I never liked Titan, and after reading it, I stopped looking for any Varley to read. I liked the two or three of his shorter stories I had read before Titan, but Titan itself put me completely off Varley. Are there any other Varley stories out there that someone thinks are _better_ than Titan?? (I hope so, 'cause otherwise, I probably won't read him again, unless I just happen upon one of his stories) hpfcla!bayes "A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed." ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz (Ted Nolan) Subject: YA group mind message Date: 10 Mar 85 06:39:45 GMT No one has yet mentioned Octavia Butler's patternmaster books. I think there are two : _Pattern Master_ and _Mind of My Mind_ (if there are any more I would be interested in hearing). My memory is a little hazy on these, but basically they assumed our culture being overturned by a group of telepaths who were all bound (willingly or not) to a central telepath called the "Patternmaster". Normal people became a slave underclass. _Mind of My Mind_ describes the beginning of the process (the forming of the first pattern) through the eyes of a young woman, while _Patternmaster_ happens much later. I recall them both as being rather good. Memory fails again, but I'll describe one more, probably from the late 60's or early 70's. This book was one of the first series of Ace Specials. The author postulated starfaring humans at war with an alien race, which seemed determined to destroy human star flight capability. No one knew the motives of the aliens, or why they used such clumsy space drives when they must have been able to build better. The war seemed to be doing something to humanity, the quality of thought was slipping everywhere but on one planet (known as the artist's world or somesuch), where the military finally had to move its headquarters. It turned out that every species had a group mind, composed of those dead and gone, which was largely responsible for creativity and intuition -- and the human star drive was wreaking havoc with the group minds (the artist's world was behind a thick asteroid belt or something that prevented close approach on star drive). The story's main character got to be "reincarnated" to stop the war. Unfortunately, I can't put a name to this one. When you have several thousand paperbacks and a FINO* filing system, bibliography is an difficult hobby. My best guess is _Palace of Eternity_ by Bob Shaw, but I could be completely wrong. One more : Randall Garret and his wife (forget her name) have a sort of public access group mind in their Galandra Cycle books. (_The Bronze of Edarta_, _Search for Ka_, _Well of Darkness_ etc). *First in Never out Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe) ------------------------------ From: chenr%tilt.FUN@topaz (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: YA group mind message Date: 16 Mar 85 04:09:01 GMT > No one has yet mentioned Octavia Butler's patternmaster books. I > think there are two : _Pattern Master_ and _Mind of My Mind_ (if > there are any more I would be interested in hearing). The people in Pattern Master don't have a group mind so much as they have psionic links. One individual is linked to everyone in the community; he is the Pattern Master. The links can be used I believe for communication and to temporarily draw psionic power, thus the Pattern Master has the capability to draw on the psionic strength of the entire telepathic community. The story itself is set in the future where psionic humans have taken over society. Due to their focus on psionics, they have forgotten all but rudimentary technology and have dropped back to an essentially feudal level. To make things even more fun, there are another group of people, the Clayarks, who are people infected by the (contagious) disease brought back by the first (and only I think) starship sent out, Clay's Ark. The disease does nasty things to both body and mind. The plot, I believe (it's been at least 5 years since I read this book so...) centers around the struggle between two brothers? / cousins? who are next in the line of succession when the old Pattern Master's death is imminent. It's a very good story although hard to find. > *First in Never out Sounds like my desk drawers... Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr ------------------------------ Subject: Dr. Who Date: 15 Mar 85 19:41:26 PST (Fri) From: Alastair Milne I am just about willing to swear that the man's name is Peter DAVISON, not DAVIDSON. I have seen him in two other things: one an unmentionably silly episode of The Tomorrow People (so bad I mention it only for completeness' sake), and the other the very good part of Tristan Farnon in the TV series All Creatures Great and Small, adapted from James Herriot's semi-autobiographical books about his life as a veterinarian in Yorkshire during the 30's. Not science-fiction at all, but wonderful stories nevertheless. Davison is very believable and sympathetic as Tristan. Unfortunately I've had no chance to see him as the Doctor, because in our area (Orange County, south of Los Angeles), they are only showing the Tom Baker episodes: Logopolis, which ended with Baker regenerating into Davison, was followed immediately by Robot, which starts with Jon Pertwee regenerating into Baker. So I am still waiting for Davison. By the way, anybody know of any relation between Tom Baker and Colin Baker? Alastair Milne (NOT the Director General of the BBC) ------------------------------ Subject: Leela Date: 15 Mar 85 23:12:49 PST (Fri) From: Alastair Milne In following the discussion of the Doctor's companions, I was thinking a bit about Leela, and wondering about the woman who plays her, Louise Jameson. I don't think I've ever heard of her anywhere else, and I thought she did a very good job as Leela (even though she did seem unnecessarily primitive in places, more primitive that she was at home, among her tribe). Does anybody know anything about her? (What "bikini"? The least she ever wears is her native skins, and even then she's wearing a lot more than the men of her tribe do. The shaman, Neeva, contented himself at times with two pieces of cloth, one fore and one aft, and maybe a pair of sandals.) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Sat 16 Mar 85 13:27:07-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: V10#97--Who's companions Wahl.ES@XEROX.ARPA writes: >By far, my favorite is Leela. ... Also, he seemed more upset >about her departure than that of any other companion. Baker-Who seemed more upset over Leela's leaving than any other of HIS companions, yes, but I'd say offhand--strike that, I've thought about this a bit: I'd say that Pertwee-Who's reaction to Jo Grant's marriage was much more upset, even to being teary. I always thought that the wonderful old goat had a romantic streak that ought to be brought out more. Rich ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Mar 85 19:57:23 CST From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Dr Who companions (specifically Romana II) To: Brenda > My second favorite is Romana II. I thought that she was the one > the Dr. always had a special soft spot for. I liked their > relationship. (S.o. mentioned the actress who played her was > once Mrs. Tom Baker. Is this true??) The actress' name, by the way, is Lalla Ward. She actually first appeared in "The Armageddon Factor", one episode before Romana regenerated (involving the last segment to the key of time). She is also one of my personal favorites, I guess because her and the Doctor got along so well. And, in fact, after Lalla left the show, Tom Baker and her did get married. Unfortunately, the marriage only lasted about a year because their careers went in different directions (not because of any personal problems). William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 85 20:28 EST From: Richard Subject: Re: Doctor Who The Doctor in the movie Doctor Who and the Daleks was played by Peter Cushing. There is no mention of Gallifrey or Time Lords because the Doctor is mot a Time Lord. He was a Earthling scientist; the Doctor Who movies were very bad. Lionheart is planning a new distribution packet and will show Hartnell and Troughton. According to the London Times, Doctor Who will be cancelled for only nine Months which is bad enough. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Mar 85 0936-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #101 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Books - Recommended Reading List & Best SF & Sexual Differentiation in SF ( 2msgs), Films - The Forbin Project & "The Adventures of Mark Twain By Huck Finn" & Computers in SF & "J-Men Forever", Television - Dr. Who & The Prisoner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 02:11:44-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Locus Recommended Reading List Here's a rather older message that I managed to miss until recently... > From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) > This information is from LOCUS #289, which also has the LOCUS > Poll, Recommended Reading for 1984, etc. (I see where the net's > own Jerry Boyajian has a non-fiction book (with Kenneth Johnson) > on the recommended reading list, INDEX TO THE SCIENCE FICTION > MAGAZINES 1983...) Yeah, but Charlie didn't list our INDEX TO THE SEMI-PROFESSIONAL FANTASY MAGAZINES 1983. *sniff* --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA *Now* you know why I say... <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 04:37:37-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Best SF of All Time From: Alastair Milne > The best English language book of the 20th century is very > probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". Absolutely masterful. > A work both of writing and creation that has become the standard > by which such works are measured. When a publisher really wants > to turn heads for a fantasy book, he puts on the cover something > like "a new rival for The Lord of the Rings", which is almost > universally false, but eye-catching. Then by the same token, Stephen King could be considered the greatest writer of the 20th Century, since all horror works are compared to or measured against his. :-) On a less frivolous note, though, I'm sorry, but I cannot take seriously the suggestion that the best English language book of the 20th Century is one that had me bored to tears by the time I was halfway through the second volume. > So I would want to see *very* convincing evidence of Lord of > Light's claim before I would even consider ranking Zelazny with > Tolkien. I may not agree with the Mad Hungarian Dog Brust (Hi, Steven! And by the way, it's "jayembee" here in SFL, not "Boyoboy") that LORD OF LIGHT is the *best* SF novel of all time, but I'd say it was easily in the top 5. I can't say that Zelazny has done no wrong, but in my opinion, Tolkien doesn't hold a candle to him, credentials or no. The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and while Tolkien's prose may be more elegant than Zelazny's, Zelazny's stories are much more satisfying. "Everyone has a right to hold my own opinion" --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz (jagardner) Subject: Re: Hear, Hear! Date: 13 Mar 85 19:13:43 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) quotes: >"What could be more sexist than altering the conventions of >the language on purely sexual considerations?" > > -- Gene Wolfe A good point in many instances, but there are exceptions. I think Samuel R. Delaney's new novel "Stars in my Pockets Like Grains of Sand" contains a highly enlightening alteration in the conventions of English that is based on purely sexual considerations. On many planets of Delaney's universe, one refers to all citizens (sentient beings) as "she" or "her", regardless of gender. Furthermore, these people are all called "women" (though they can be female women or male women if gender is important for some reason). The words "he", "him", and "man" are used to refer to citizens by whom the speaker is sexually aroused; therefore the sexual distinction is only made when you are feeling your own sexuality. Again, a man in this sense can be either female or male depending on your sexual preferences. People are quite free to switch from shes to hes (when sexual feelings stir) and from hes to shes (when sexual feelings die down one way or another). At first this just seems like an artificial device to mess up the reader's mind. However, halfway through the story I finally figured out what (I think) Delaney was trying to illustrate. Whenever a new character is introduced into the story, the character is automatically a woman and "she". At first, the reader believes all these people are female, but that's not true -- they're just neutral people and their sexuality is of no interest to the story's narrator (there are one or two "men" who ARE of interest to the narrator, but that's another problem). As you read, you realize that some of these "women" are male and some are female AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH IS WHICH. The story's narrator doesn't care, but the reader does (of course I am only describing my personal reaction). I think this demonstrates how deeply we feel the need to differentiate between the sexes. We want to know if someone is male or female even when that has no relevance to that person's actions or outlook. Delaney's linguistic conventions made this mental peculiarity obvious in a way that would be difficult with normal language. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo P.S. By the way, I'm with Gene Wolfe and Steven Brust on playing with conventions when you don't have a special point to make in the way Delaney makes it. You can he or she or (s)he your writing into incomprehensibility if you aren't careful. ------------------------------ From: timeinc!dwight@topaz (Dwight Ernest) Subject: Re: Sexual differentiation in recent science fiction Date: 14 Mar 85 22:29:18 GMT I, too, was confused about the gender of the characters in Ursula K. LeGuin's famous "The Left Hand of Darkness" when I first read it in 1973... I desperately wanted to know which gender the two major protagonists were members of. Then it dawned on me (as it apparently did on you, too, Jim) that this was exactly what the novel was about and that LeGuin intended us to think about this need to connect characters with gender. I certainly did, and it was the dawning of what became a more mature anti-sexist consciousness later (I hope). Incidentally, if you can get your hands on "The Left Hand of Darkness" by LeGuinn, by all means don't pass it up. ------------------------------ From: orca!andrew@topaz (Andrew Klossner) Subject: Re: The Forbin Project Date: 15 Mar 85 07:23:38 GMT >"Glad that somebody finally mentioned "Colossus, the Forbin >Project." This film, which was released originally as just "The >Forbin Project" didn't do well in the theaters, primarily because >the movie going public couldn't seem to relate to computers in 1971 >(when the movie was made) like they would now. The movie was >relatively low-key, without any shoot-'em-ups or other flashy >gimmicks and was received well by everybody I knew who knew >anything about computers." Well ... almost everybody. I saw it with a group of college frosh hackers. When we saw the Colossus machine room, the "willing suspension of disbelief" was dissolved in a pool of laughter. The console for Colossus was made up of several (identical) front panels from IBM 1620's. Each such panel had a bright red switch labeled "in emergency, PULL". On a 1620, indeed on every IBM computer I've seen, this switch drops a short across the main power input to bring the system down very quickly. (This once saved a person from serious injury when their necktie got caught in a line printer.) The second half of the movie has the main characters concerned with finding a way to turn off Colossus, but they ignore these obvious switches. -- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz Subject: "The Adventures of Mark Twain By Huck Finn" Date: 15 Mar 85 23:03:10 GMT I just saw this at Filmex (the Los Ageles International Film Exposition, for those who haven't been listening). The filmmakers requested that no reviews be printed, as the film won't be out for about six months. I will include a few brief comments. The film is very good, in the fantasy/ adventure mold. It is made by Will Vinton, the famous animator who works in clay, using a process called Claymation. Basically, this means sculpting figures out of clay and then animating them. Vinton has done some excellent work in shorts. Three and 1/2 years work by 25 animators using over two tons of clay has produced an excellent feature film, as well. Watch for previews, particularly in the Pacific Northwest area, where Vinton is based. Vinton has also recently done some effects work for Walter Murch's "Return to Oz". Vinton did some Claymation which turned rocks into trolls. It's supposed to be very effective. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz.ARPA (Mark Brader) Subject: Computer hardware in movies Date: 18 Mar 85 08:48:32 GMT > When we saw the Colossus machine room, the "willing suspension of > disbelief" was dissolved in a pool of laughter. The console for > Colossus was made up of several (identical) front panels from IBM > 1620's. Actually, this sounds more realistic than a lot of Hollywood computers. (I wonder if the designers ever look at the studios' own computers...) I was rather amused while watching WarGames to notice the design of the "WOPR" CPU. I mean, this was supposed to be a big, powerful computer... a "whopper", in fact. And they even resisted the temptation to hang flashing lights all over it (probably because they would have distracted from the pretty graphic displays). So how did they convey the idea that it was big and powerful? Why, they simply shaped it like a diesel locomotive body. Mark Brader ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 85 11:00 EST From: Denber.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Frustration! OK, so I saw a few clips from the SF/detective/rock&roll spoof "J-Men Forever" a few years ago and said to myself "that's really funny - I've got to see that movie". Well last week I finally had my chance - the USA cable network was showing J-Men Forever, the whole movie. So I turned it on and it was great - until our cable company bit the big one half an hour into it! So after waiting two years, I only got to see the beginning. Anyway, I'm putting out this last desperate appeal in the hopes that someone somewhere out there has a VHS tape of this movie (I've already tried locally) which I could borrow and return. Name your price! "Any sufficiently advanced bibliography is indistinguishable from the opinions of my employer." - Michel ------------------------------ Date: Mon 18 Mar 1985 14:10:28 EST From: Subject: Dr. Who An English friend of mine would like to add his 'tuppence' to the discussion of DR. Who. I've included his message below: I was prompted to write to the Newsletter by the recent correspondence about the best/worst etc. of Dr. Who's companions. Since I have been watching the show since it started in the early Sixties, I suppose I qualify as somewhat of a fanatic, but here are my thoughts anyway. The shows starring the first two Doctors (William Hartnell and Patrick Troughton) have never been shown in the U.S.A., as far as I can tell, so I won't try and drag out my fading memories of the companions of these Dr.s - I'll confine my suggestions to the companions of Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker and Peter Davison. Most Useful to the Dr:- Leela The combination of the Dr's intelligence with her cunning and instincts was a formidable team. She also seemed to be the only one in the show with enough sense to pick up a weapon from a fallen enemy and use it. Most Likeable as a Person:- Jo Grant This is of course rather subjective, but she always seemed to me the friendliest of all the companions. Jon Pertwee's Dr. seemed to think so too, he's almost in tears at the end of 'The Green Death' when she leaves him to run up the Amazon and pick mushrooms(?). Surely this has to be the saddest leave-taking of all, with Pertwee driving into the sunset with only his vintage car 'Bessie' left to talk to... Most Natural:- Sarah Jane Smith By this, I mean that she seemed to have the same reactions to the strange and dangerous events around her as an ordinary Earthling might have. Because of this she could take the part of the viewer, who could imagine him or herself in a similar situation thinking or doing the same thing. She should also get a vote for longevity - I think she was the longest-serving companion, although I can't be sure. Nastiest:- Turlough No argument here, this character was thoroughly unpleasant - I kept hoping he would get skewered or dismembered or something equally painful. This may be a tribute to the acting capabilities of Mark Strickson, but having a traitor in the Tardis was an experiment I hope the BBC will not repeat (assuming they continue the show - have you all written your letters of protest yet ?). Most of the others were quite capable in their own way, but the ones above really stand out in my mind. On a separate topic, what is it about Peter Davison's Dr. that people seem to dislike? I've read lots of comments about the BBC's alleged mistake in hiring him, but I thought he did a fairly good job. I suspect that a lot of the problem is that many people had only seen Tom Baker until then. Tom served so long (and ably) in the role that I think viewers thought any replacement had to replicate his mannerisms to be a convincing Dr Who - not the case of course. He also had no really interesting companions, as you can see from my list above. All in all, a bad rap, I think. Mike Jordan All I can add to this is: 1) I have high hopes for Peri. I only saw her in one show though, so I'll have to wait and see. 2) I think Peter Davison was very good. The first show was a bit weak, but he rapidly became quite good. Bob Kelner (KELNER at LL) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 04:01 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: The Prisoner Well you can all believe whatever you like about this. (McGoohan's intent I think). However you shouldn't take it all too literally. How can you when there are so many contradictions in the series; an example will suffice. No 6 escapes twice from the village. The first time circumstances indicate that the village is situated somewhere in the Baltic, the second time it is off the north-west coast of Africa. And how could anyone take the final epsiode literally? Anyway - John Drake seemed to work for the CIA or some such organization - the opening credits definitely show him against a US city somewhere (they're being repeated in the UK right now) and his US accent is much more pronounced - whereas in the Prisoner No 6 obviously works/worked for the British. It occurs to me that the reference to Drake in the penultimate episode with Leo McKern is probably a joke by McGoohan - quite possibly at Markstein's expense - one gets the impression there was no love lost between the two. Who is Number 1? deryk. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Mar 85 1001-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #102 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 102 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (2 msgs) & Henderson & Varley (2 msgs) & Vinge & Zelazny, Films - Brainstorm & Godzilla, Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hpfcms!mpm@topaz.ARPA (mpm) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 13 Mar 85 21:58:00 GMT I have a lot of Piers Anthony's books, especially the earlier work. There are several books of his not mentioned here. I recommend one in particular - Prosthro Plus - as one of the funniest SF novels I've ever read. This is the tale of an earthman kidnapped by aliens to take care of "dental" problems. (It turns out that humans are mere chattels in the eyes of galactic society, since mankind has not qualified for membership in the galactic civilization.) There is a lot of tongue-in-cheek humor, with enough underlying truth to grab you. The story is very much like a lot of Gordon Dickson's work - where one man (or a small group) is able to make a BIG difference in a situation involving (supposedly) insurmountable odds. Good stuff. (Now that I think about it, a lot of Keith Laumer's work falls in the same category.) The end result - our puny earthman ends up running the show. I think the book is out of print. The publisher is (was) Berkley with a publication date in the early 1970's. I found a copy at a used book store. Check it out. It's worth the effort to find it. -- Mike "and I thought he was little known" McCarthy (hplabs!hpfcla!hpfcms!) mpm P.S. The books "Chthon" and "Phthor" (I think that's the spelling) were intriguing. I haven't read them for some time, but I think they are a little rough; they apparently come from Anthony's early years of writing. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 02:05:35-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Piers Anthony > From: othervax!psal@topaz (C.Thomas Weinbaum von Waldenhal) > "SOS THE ROPE", origionaly serialized in F&SF, won > him his first hugo..." Ah, sorry to break this to you, but SOS THE ROPE not only didn't win a Hugo Award, but (a) it wasn't even nominated for one, and (b) Piers Anthony hasn't won a Hugo for *anything*. The only thing that SOS won was a monetary prize co-sponsored by F&SF and Pyramid Books (who published the first book edition). BTW, in all the discussion about Anthony's books, no one's mentioned PROSTHO PLUS, RACE AGAINST TIME, TRIPLE DETENTE, THE E.S.P. WORM and THE RING (both written with Robert E. Margroff), and last but not least, the Kung Fu series that he wrote with Roberto Fuentes featuring Jason Striker, Master of the Martial Arts (of which at least 3 have a fantasy element). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 19 Mar 1985 03:20:50-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Zenna Henderson > From: mab@aids-unix (Mike Brzustowicz) > I recommend the two books about the people-- "Pilgrimage" and "The > People--No Different Flesh". There was also a short story in > "Holding Wonder" which might have been a People story--it's been > so long since I've read it, but it read to me then (>10 yrs ago) > as a possibility for "The Bright Beginning"--the start of the > People's racial memory. > > Aside from these three books, and a fourth, called "The Anything > Box" (All of which are short story collections, the first two > having a "Meta-story" woven around them [in the fashion of Susan > Calvin narration in "i robot"]), I don't know of any other books > by her. Has anyone else heard of any? Nope, that's it, unfortunately. One interesting note, though, is that if you have those four books, you have almost her entire output. That I've been able to determine, she's only had 7 other stories published, all but two in F&SF. They are: [In F&SF] "That Boy" (11/71); "Thrumthing and Out" (10/72); "Katie-Mary's Trip" (1/75); "The First Stroke" (10/77); "Tell Us a Story" (10/80) [Elsewhere] "Before the Fact" (UNIVERSE SF, 1/55); "There Was a Garden" (CASSANDRA RISING, ed. by Alice Laurance, 1978) "Katie-Mary's Trip" and "Tell Us a Story" are both People stories, as is "The Idelible Kind" in HOLDING WONDER. Other than these three, all of the People stories are in PILGRIMAGE and NO DIFFERENT FLESH. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: ihu1g!rls@topaz.ARPA (r.l. schieve) Subject: Re: 'Millenium' by John Varley, anyone? Date: 18 Mar 85 13:48:45 GMT > But...does anyone have any other comments on either 'Millenium' >or anything else by Varley? What of the 'Titan' (etc etc - can't >think of the titles of the other books) and so on series? I >thought they were a good read, but as you got further along in the >series it got weaker and weaker... The full series is "Titan", "Wizard" and "Demon". It is always interesting to read a series of books where the author kills off a well developed main character in an early book in the series and runs out of ways to expand later and conveniently brings the dead back to life. Too bad Varley had to come down to the level of Frank Herbert's "Dune" sequels to keep the third book going. Rick Schieve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 85 23:33:23 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: John Varley I didn't much care for the Titan series either, and found it particularly disappointing since I liked his previous novel, "The Ophiuchi Hotline", so much. It reminded me rather of Bester's better novels. I've also liked almost all of Varley's short stories, even though I'm not a big fan of the form. I haven't read "Millenium", having been put off Varley by "Titan", et al. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: lzmi!psc@topaz.ARPA (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Snow Queen/World's End Date: 16 Mar 85 21:36:01 GMT > Snow Queen is kaleidoscopic, and I mean that literally as well as > colloquially. The plot lines twist and turn and settle into new > patterns, but they all connect subtly to the other lines until > they meat at the end. Well done, and enjoyable. I thought SNOW QUEEN was kaleidoscopic, too: pretty and colorful, > but not very interesting after a while. The characters were tissue paper (I.E., too thin to be cardboard), the interactions and plot predictable. (*MILD SPOILER OF A BAD AND NONESSENTIAL SCENE *) One scene in particular bothered me a *lot*. A kid gets cornered in an alley by a bunch of uglies with knives, who threaten to carve him up. They approach; end of chapter. Next chapter, we have a cop walking his beat. He wanders around for a while. About halfway through the chapter, he hears a struggle in an alley. He runs into it, in time to stop the uglies from touching their knives to the kid. This is literary cheating! That unannounced flashback and "don't worry, the kid *does* get rescued in the nick of time" garbage really hurt the book for me. It wasn't the only time it happened, either. (*END OF SPOILER - RESUME SPEED*) Perhaps one of my problems is that I've come to expect so much of Vinge. I read her Analog stories and liked them a lot. SNOW QUEEN was a real let down, to my mind, the worst piece of writing she's ever done. (The best were two novellas: "Tin Soldier", her first sale, and "Fire storm", a flawed but brilliant story man/machine symbiosis, second only to Verner Vinge's "True Names" as the greatest SF story of all time about computers. Damn, what a book *that* would be!) > I wish I could say the same for World's End. A novel (:-) > approach, but poorly done in comparison to Heart of Darkness, > which it emulates (see the opening quotes). Maybe I wouldn't be so > critical if it didn't aspire so high... > glenn kapetansky ...ihnp4!ihu1j!gek I, on the other hand, wasn't expecting WORLD'S END to be Conrad; I was expecting it to be another SNOW QUEEN. I was pleasantly surprised. Admittedly, the story is a bit muddy, the plot lost among the vivid mental scenes. But this is good stuff: original ideas, interesting characters (not great but not stereotypes), and Vinge's razor sharp writing style. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!cpf@topaz.ARPA (Courtenay Footman) Subject: Lord of Light (more) Date: 17 Mar 85 19:59:08 GMT I agree that The Lord of the Rings is the best 20th century fiction that I have read. I also agree that Lord of Light is the best science fiction story that I have read. Finally, in response to the person who asked about the order of chapters, if in medias res is good enough for Homer, it is good enough for Zelazny. [If they do get usenet on satelite, does that mean we will *all* be able to make high-frequency prayers?] Courtenay Footman arpa: cpf@lnsvax Newman Lab. of Nuclear Studies usenet: cornell!lnsvax!cpf Cornell University ------------------------------ From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM) Date: 18 Mar 85 23:45:58 GMT The device in Brainstorm did have a number of interesting possibilities. However, seeing the after-death experience is not one of them, so the discussion as it stands is moot. There would be no way for the device to pick up information once brain-death occurred. In the movie, it just blithely continues to record the experiences of her soul. No doubt this was made possible by new astral plane technology they didn't bother to tell us about. Right. Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.ARPA (leeper) Subject: GODZILLA (1984) Date: 18 Mar 85 20:30:38 GMT GODZILLA A film review by Mark R. Leeper Way back in the early Fifties, Toho Pictures of Japan made a serious monster film inspired by BEAST FROM 20,000 FATHOMS. The film was called GOJIRA (pronounced GO-jee-RA) and was reportedly about how the Americans used a nuclear bomb to try to kill a centuries-old dragon or dinosaur that was worshiped by the natives of a local island. The enraged and now radioactive monster vented his wrath on Tokyo. The film became an allegory of the closing days of World War II. Japan was being hit by something incomprehensively powerful of unknown origin that just totally wiped out any place it appeared. Finally a courageous Japanese scientist uses his own powerful weapon against Gojira, but only after he has taken safeguards to be sure his force is never used against humans (are you listening, American nuclear scientists?). The film was extensively re-edited to be much less anti- American, scenes with American actor Raymond Burr were added, and the film was released in the U.S. as GODZILLA, KING OF THE MONSTERS. The film became an international success and spawned a whole series of films with Gojira/Godzilla and eventually created a whole subgenre, the Japanese monster movie. Of Toho's followups to GODZILLA none had much real quality, but some were fun on a junior high school level of complexity. Most notably, GODZILLA VS. THE THING had a certain charm. At the end of the next film, GHIDRAH, THE THREE-HEADED MONSTER Godzilla turns into a good guy and after that the films became more and more silly and childish. They maintained a small audience for a decade or so, but they eventually died out. Presumably the executives at Toho began to lament their own degradation of their monster. They have just finished making a film tentatively to be called either GODZILLA or RETURN OF GODZILLA. It is another sequel to the original GODZILLA, KING OF THE MONSTERS, but to only that film. As the film begins there has been one and only one appearance of Godzilla, and that was some thirty years earlier. A second monster of the same species rises out of a volcano to threaten Japan and to spark an international nuclear incident. It had been rumored that Toho Pictures had been working on a Godzilla film that would employ stop-motion technology. If, in fact, this is the film that resulted, it is something of a disappointment. This Godzilla is another "man-in-suitosaurus," to use Don Glut's term. But at least the producers have returned to an earlier and less cute visualization of the creature. This Godzilla looks much like the one in the first Godzilla films with a face like a crumpled sheet of newspaper. The camera uses low-angle camera shots effectively to make the beast look impressively large, a technique used in the first films and not again since. The special effects of the monster walking through Tokyo at night look much like a similar effect in the 1976 KING KONG. The new Godzilla film (and it isn't dubbed in English yet--I saw it in Japanese with a narrator explaining what was going on) is not a very good film on any sort of absolute scale; I guess I have never seen a Japanese science fiction film that was. But for those of us who grew up with hokey Godzilla films, it has considerable nostalgia value. The quality is not up to that of the 1976 KING KONG, so expect very little, but if you liked the old Toho science fiction films in their best years, it might be worth watching for. It was a pleasure to see, but I cannot fairly give the 1984 version of GODZILLA anything better than a -1 on the -4 to +4 scale for fear that someone might see the film and realize what rotten taste I really have. ------------------------------ From: moncol!john@topaz.ARPA (John Ruschmeyer) Subject: Re: V10#97--Who's companions Date: 18 Mar 85 16:59:20 GMT >From: Alderson@Score >>Wahl.ES@XEROX.ARPA writes re: Dr. Who companions >>By far, my favorite is Leela. ... Also, he seemed more upset >>about her departure than that of any other companion. > >Baker-Who seemed more upset over Leela's leaving than any other of >HIS companions, yes, but I'd say offhand--strike that, I've thought >about this a bit: I'd say that Pertwee-Who's reaction to Jo Grant's >marriage was much more upset, even to being teary. I always >thought that the wonderful old goat had a romantic streak that >ought to be brought out more. I really think the Doctor took Leela's (and K9 m1's) departure in stride. After all, he immediately put himself to work on K9 mk2. I'd say he was the most upset after departing from Romana. It was this departure that set the tone for "Logopolis". To be fair, I have not yet seen the Jo Grant departure (ask me in a few weeks). I don't think, however, that we should forget Nyssa's departure and Adric's final sacrifice (from the Davison era). Name: John Ruschmeyer US Mail: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Phone: (201) 222-6600 x366 UUCP: ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john ...!princeton!moncol!john ...!pesnta!moncol!john ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Mar 85 0927-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #103 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 21 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 103 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & LeGuin & Leinster & Simak & Tolkien & Zelazny & Solar Sailing, Films - Brainstorm (3 msgs), Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: orca!andrew@topaz.arpa (Andrew Klossner) Subject: Re: Yet another Xanth novel Date: 17 Mar 85 21:04:33 GMT >"Yes folks, Xanth #8 has hit the bookstores already. This ones is >called "The Crewel Lye" (the cruel lie) and features Jordan the >ghost as the central character. I refuse to buy it; I stopped >buying after the 6th. I'll just wait for the public libraries to >get it, but meanwhile if any of you die-hard Xanth fans out there >would like to tell me what you think of it, just mail me; I'll be >gald to hear from you." "Crewel Lye" is as good as many of the Xanth novels, and better than the last couple. But it's certainly not more than a "light read". >"BTW, does anyone find the Xanth novels sexist? I do." In this respect, "Crewel Lye" has a refreshing twist. Anthony introduces one of his biggest, dumbest, "all-male" heroes yet, then brings on another luscious female ... then, through the evil magic of a foe, they switch bodies and start raising their consciousnesses. I liked it. On the other hand, my wife finds it to be offensively sexist. So if the earlier Xanth books really bothered you, this one probably will, too. -- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew) [UUCP] (orca!andrew.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 85 09:53 PST From: Newman.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: LE GUIN'S LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS I must put in my two cents here, in response to the many who have recommended TLHD. I disagree. I thought the book was terrible. I read it along time ago, so I can't give any details other than a general dislike for the book. Perhaps I need to try it again, though I don't think I will get around to it. >>Dave ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 85 05:11:18 PST (Wednesday) Subject: Re: In defense of Murray Leinster From: Cooper.SBDERX@XEROX.ARPA Just so the supporters outnumber the opposition, I'll throw in my two-cents worth. I have enjoyed all I have read of Leinster's work, although I am also finding it hard to get here in the UK. "The Best of Murray Leinster", although now out of print, is still available in some stores, at least over here, and it comes here from the US. Worth reading, though, if you can find them, are "The Greks Bring Gifts" and "The Wailing Asteroid". What hope is there for someone who classes both Leinster and Herbert as schlock?! Martin. ------------------------------ From: amd!tc@topaz.arpa (Tom Crawford) Subject: Clifford D. Simak Date: 19 Mar 85 15:17:09 GMT One of my favorite authors is Clifford D. Simak and one of my favorite books by him is -Way Station-. One of the reasons I like Simak is because he writes good prose: This was the Earth, he thought-a planet made for Man. But not for Man alone, for it was as well a planet for the fox and owl and weasel, for the snake, the katydid, the fish, for all the other teeming life that filled the air and earth and water. And not for these natives alone, but for other beings that called other earths their home, other planets that far light-years distant were basically the same as Earth. For Ulysses and the Hazers and all the rest of them who could live upon this planet, if need be, if they wished, with no discomfort and no artificial aids. Tom Crawford ------------------------------ To: HERMAN%UMDB.Bitnet@wiscvm.arpa (Joe Herman @ Merryland) Subject: Re: J.R.R. Tolkein Date: 19 Mar 85 21:49:45 PST (Tue) From: Alastair Milne > Hello. I read your article in SF-Lovers Digest about how J.R.R. > was the best English language SF author in the 20th century. In > the article you stated that he was fairly prolific. I have only > been able to find The Lord of the Rings, Hobbit, Farmer Giles of > Ham, and Of Tree and Leaf. > > Do you know of any other essays, short stories, novels that he > had written? > Joe Joe, I am sending this both to you and the net, both because I think other people might be interested, and because I have grave doubts about whether our mailer will succeed in getting this to your address. Please allow me to clarify a little: I did not call Tolkien the best SF author (in any language or century), both because his fictional works are clearly fantasy, not science-fiction or anywhere near it, and because I was not attempting to classify him as an author so much as to defend the name of The Lord of the Rings (and, of course, because stating such a thing as if it were a demonstrable fact, rather than an impression, however powerful, would be ridiculous). However, never in all my readings have I encountered anything that even approaches The Lord of the Rings in stature, even the things I've read and re-read with undiminished pleasure. Its impression on me is so strong that I'll risk sticking my neck out and calling it "the best" with no more qualification than a "probably". Which, as a subsequent message rightly pointed out, is most unwise practice. Some fictional works other than the ones you listed: - The Silmarillion (posthumous; completed and edited by Tolkien's son. The histories, broadly told in the fashion of heroic ballad, of the First and Second Ages of Middle Earth. Deals with many things that "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" refer to from the Elder Days) - Unfinished Tails (Further collected notes, on both the Elder Days and the War of the Rings. Highly informative; excellent reading) - The Road Goes Ever On and On (poetry from Middle Earth, including Tolkien's analyses of some Elvish poetry. I know this from references in other works; I have yet to read it myself.) - The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (collected poems from the Shire, with a certain emphasis on those of Bilbo and Frodo. Bilbo's epic poem "Errantry" is here, as well as Frodo's "The Sea Bell", and the rather unsettling "the Mewlips") - Leaf by Niggle (a curious story about a shy and introverted artist obsessed with the painting of a tree. Unrelated to Middle Earth). His nonfiction includes at least one essay "On Writing Faerie Stories" (or something similar: I forget the exact title) on the subject of writing fantasy; since he held a chair in English at Oxford University, his duties required a great deal of writing; and he did a considerable amount of translation from Middle English (which is amazingly distant from Modern English). There are also criticisms and analyses of Tolkien available. "Behind the Lord of the Rings," by Lin Carter, is the primary one that comes to my mind. And for cross-referenced glossaries of the myriad names and places of Middle Earth, see Robert Forster's "Guide to Middle Earth", and "A Tolkien Companion", whose author I'm ashamed to say I've forgotten. One other point: when I said "prolific", I did not mean in the sense of being a veritable book factory. I was thinking rather of Tolkien's ability to pursue his explorations of the intertwined histories of Middle Earth, and its languages and cultures, in seemingly unending depth and detail along so many different paths, while never losing the beauty of the epic. Those explorations have produced the works I listed above: not many, by some standards, but great by almost any. This unceasing power in his writing is what I meant by "prolific". Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Lord of Light Date: 15 Mar 85 16:56:45 GMT > From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) > But can you justify the chapter numbering (4 1 2 3 5 ...) ? What need justification? This is nothing new; merely used better than most writers use it. The technique is called "framing," and conveyed the point of the story quite well. He could have made the first chapter a prologue and the last an epilogue, but why bother? The point is that the logical progression of the tale does not take place temporally. By arranging it this way, the reader is taken through an experience that is set up by the first chapter to give context, and leads to the last chapter with the inevitability of a Beethoven symphony. So there. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: Request for Solar Sailing stories Date: 19 Mar 85 08:46:29 GMT >This is also in the Asimov/Greenberg/Waugh anthology "The Seven >Deadly Sins of Science Fiction". "Sail 25" is the only story I've >read for quite some time where something called a "computer" can be >put out of action by a damaged bearing... >Mark Brader OK. Why don't you take a few shots at the bearing on your main system disk someday and see how long you can keep the system up. Admittedly this is more likely to cause a total head crash than the problem described in the story (direct quote: " 'The bearings which suspend the data-separation disks have broken. The shaft has several millimeters play and as a result there is total confusion in the data presented to the analyzer.' "), but when you think about the rpm's involved in disk drives, it's not surprising that a damaged bearing could produce a large amount of grief. Now as to how Captain Belt was able to open up the drive, slip the bearings out, put everything back together, and realign the system without any of the trainee crew noticing, that's a bit tougher... Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 08:45 PST From: WPHILLIPS.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: BRAINSTORM After reading all the articles on BRAINSTORM, I decided to rent a video tape of it and watch it again,(the first time being in a theater). I found that of all the aspects presented, the life-at-death idea to be the most intriguing. Let me explain why. BRAINSTORM,while a good movie was, in my opinion, one step away from being a gadget movie i.e. man makes machine man abuses machine. However, good story telling, be it sci fi or whatever centers on relationships between people and how those relationships affect their lives. What more intimate relationship can one have than to actually FEEL another's thoughts? How much more intimate can you get than to witness a persons death from their side of the fence, so to speak I find that somewhat more interesting than being hooked up to a chimp and finding out they hate bananas. But I think I've made my point. Live Long And Prosper Wendel ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot) Subject: Re: Chimpanzees vs Life after Death Date: 20 Mar 85 00:35:32 GMT You may *expect* to find out about life after death, but you may find out it means you get reincarnated as a chimpanzee. But, of course, I *know* this is all a bunch of nonsense: it's well known that when you die your soul goes up on the roof and you can't get it down. (That's "frisbee", not "chimpanzee".) L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 85 10:23:14 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: Brainstorm The notion that the "life-after-death" wouldn't be recorded as Lillian was dead already misses the point. Those scenes are almost classic "out-of-the-body" experiences as reported by many who have suffered heart stoppage or some other close-to-death trauma and then been revived. Notice the way that the tape ends as seen by Michael Brace; the conventional view of heaven suddenly blurs and goes dark. This might well be the point at which Lillian actually dies, and her experiences (if any) are no longer recorded. I loved this movie. One wonders what it would have been like under more favorable editing conditions, or if Trumbull had been allowed to use Showscan as he wanted to. Now, would anybody like to come up with a bibliography for Brainstorm? The experience-recording stories I can remember are: Arthur C. Clarke: THE LION OF COMARRE, THE CITY AND THE STARS, and a story I can't remember the title of in TALES FROM THE WHITE HART. John Varley: the Eight Worlds stories, and Wizard/Demon. Robert Silverberg: the framing story for MAJIPOOR CHRONICLES. I'm sure there are dozens more. - Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue 19 Mar 85 12:45:47-EST From: Elizabeth Willey Subject: Tom(cat) Baker's marriages I was under the impression that he was married to Louise Jameson. Tsk, tsk. As bad as Captain Kirk, isn't he... My favorite Dr. Who episode has never been made, although I thought one episode came close. It's Dr. Who meets the Electronic Teller Machine. The Doctor tries to use his American Express card ("Don't leave home without it", right? If Ford Prefect can have one, why not the Doctor?) to get money, which he seems not always to have when he needs some, from a 24-hour-banking machine in a mall somewhere. He goes into the little alcove where the machine is. He inserts the card. He taps out his code number. The machine blinks a few times, then accepts the number; he taps out the amount of money he needs---say ten pounds--- and the screen tells him "Please wait. Your transaction is being processed.". He waits. Behind him, slowly and silently, an everything-proof transparent barrier slides down, sealing him in. On the other side, a Dalek rolls up, accompanied by the Black Guardian (laughing evilly). Behind them, more Daleks roll by, shooting everthing in sight. The Doctor sees nothing. He grows impatient, hits the query button *queep* and is politely asked again to wait, his transaction is being processed...He waits. More Daleks...more Daleks...shoppers dying horribly...the Doctor is still waiting for his ten pounds...and waiting...and waiting...*queep* Please wait, your transaction is being processed... *-------Eliz. Did I say that? I must have been out of my mind...! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 14:12 EST From: " Roz " Subject: Re: Dr. Who Alastair (Milne) is right...it IS Peter Davison rather than Davidson! We (Central New york) had been in the Tom Baker loop for at least two years...this year (last 6 months +/-) we have been treated to the Peter Davison "movies". The current membership drive for WCNY says they (WCNY) have bought the Pertwee episodes for $25K (!), I am looking forward to seeing those for the first time! It has taken me awhile to get used to Davison as the Doctor, but I was always familiar with his Tristan character--which helped, I think. My son still prefers Tom Baker, but since he is only 6 with a 1930 bedtime, he rarely gets to see the "All Creatures Great and Small" stories. Roz ------------------------------ From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken) Subject: Re: V10#97--Who's companions Date: 19 Mar 85 12:50:13 GMT Actually, the most touching departure of a companion that I've seen was when Susan remained on Earth with her freedom fighter in "The Dalek Invasion of Earth." Susan obviously loved her freedom fighter (whose name has slipped my memory), The Doctor realized that, went into the TARDIS with Ian and Barbara on a pretense, closed and locked the doors, explained to Susan why he did that, and left. Extremely touching. James C Armstrong, Jnr. {ihnp4||allegra||mcnc||cbosgb}!abnji!jca ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 21 Mar 85 0954-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #104 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Mar 85 0954-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #104 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 21 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 104 Today's Topics: Books - McKinley & Saberhagen (2 msgs) & Varley & Van Vogt, Films - Brainstorm & The Adventures of Mark Twain, Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & V (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot... Date: 15 Mar 85 17:55:56 GMT In an earlier submission about first novels and another one about women writers, I somehow forgot to mention Robin McKinley. I don't know how I managed. Her first novel, BEAUTY, is outstanding by any standards. Her most recent novel, THE HERO AND THE CROWN, won the Newberry Award, which it richly deserved. Everything she has written is wonderful. I still don't know how I could have forgotten her. Maybe because I don't think of "women writers," I just think of "writers," and her first novel in no way read like a first novel. In any case, she is on my list of todays ten best english language writers. For those who are interested, the total list (not really in order) consists of: Roger Zelazny, Robin McKinley, Robert B. Parker, Judith Martin (aka Miss Manners), Pamela Dean, Will Shetterly, Jane Yolan, Gene Wolfe, and John M. Ford. I'm basing this mostly on ability to use the language and consistancy. The list is also subject to change without notice, and, in any case, is pretty meaningless. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: milford!bill@topaz.arpa (bill) Subject: Qwib-qwib: A review of Bezerker Base Date: 19 Mar 85 17:42:18 GMT I just finished Saberhagen's anthology/novel "Berzerker Base". A berzerker, for those who haven't bumped into them,they are machines programmed to seek out sentient life and destroy it (think of the 'planet eater' in one of the more memorable Startrek shows) but typically Saberhagen made them more comic-book-like, one story had the machine playing chess against the human to wear him down. Anyway, "Bezerker Base" has stories by sharp people like Niven, Anderson, Bryant, and Saberhagen tries to mold them into one large berzerker novel. The stories are very much above-average but have been published elsewhere and Saberhagen's superstructure doesn't add very much. End of the review per se. More interesting is something common to three of the stories: The 'traditional' bezerker story has humans endangered by these invincable monomaniac machines but "man being the son-of-a-bitch that he is, always wins"; so the stories have the comic-book style alluded to above. Once again one can think of many Startrek episodes sharing this cliche. In the stories by Zelazny, Anderson, and Niven there is a different attitude toward computers (still many technical errors, the notion of berzerkers as being deadly because they're 'von Neumann machines' stands out), in that machines ( anti-bezerker bezerkers) become the heroes of the stories. First the "qwib-qwib" made by a long lost civilization to defeat the bezerkers is found. Then a group of humans capture a bezerker to reprogram it to destroy other bezerkers. Lastly the Niven story has a 'Remora program' to attach itself to the bezerker software and once again reprogram the bezerkers against themselves. I'm concerned here about the effect on the unconscious popular mythology concerning machines and computers in particular. I'm sure none of the authors had any sinister motives along these lines, I'm more interested in an emerging Jungian archetype. There seems to be a definite change of direction here in the attitude toward machines. Before the message in the bezerker stories was to distrust the computer, and this message was available to the human psyche from other directions -- the 'Colossus' movie springs to mind. A very real 'anti-technological' stance of "destroy these evil machines while we still can"; also there is the comic-book attitude noted above: "man being the unconquerable son-of...." The new message might be progressive: "computers are an extension of ourselves and permit us to do things humanly impossible", but perhaps there might be a more subtle message coming into the human psyche: "You are powerless against these machines, so make the adaptation to the friendliest ones around, THEY are your only hope" One can feel this message in Reagan's Starwars defense: "man is totally powerless against weapons, so make new, stronger ones to protect us automatically." In religious terms, the direction has changed from "the machine as self-appointed deity" to "the machine as the true messiah". While moving away from a bad mythology of "machine as evil unknown" is there an equally bad mythology emerging of "machine as benign despot?" Have these mythological stances emerged elsewhere in the culture? The first definitely has throughout the fifties and sixties; with Lukas' SW we have a small myth of the machine as a munchkin (R2D2,etc). I cannot think of any other evidence of a messianic model of the computer but somehow I can feel it coming. ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!moore@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Qwib-qwib: A review of Bezerker Base Date: 20 Mar 85 08:33:49 GMT > In the stories by Zelazny, Anderson, and Niven there is a > different attitude toward computers (still many technical errors, > the notion of berzerkers as being deadly because they're 'von > Neumann machines' stands out) Just a quick note in defense. There are two different concepts under the label "von Neumann machine". One is the computer architecture concept of a single processor and separate memory (ouch, an awful definition). But it is another idea of Dr. von Neumann that is being referred to above, an idea most recently referred to in 2010. Basically if you wish to a job of arbitrary size, such as transform all of Jupiter, design a self-replicating machine that can also do the job. This way you personally build one machine, and then sit back and let the wonders of exponential growth increase the numbers of machines until you have enough to complete the job at hand. Of course you need raw materials, but for terra-forming or planet-wrecking the raw materials are part of the task. Peter Moore moore@Berkeley ucbvax!moore ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: 'Millenium' by John Varley, anyone? Date: 19 Mar 85 08:26:40 GMT >Funny, Dave, I never liked Titan, and after reading it, I stopped >looking for any Varley to read. I liked the two or three of his >shorter stories Ihad read before Titan, but Titan itself put me >completely off Varley. >hpfcla!bayes Strange... I had just the opposite experience. I came across some short stuff in various "best-of-the-year" collections and said "Gee, that's neat" to myself after reading them. Then I came across TITAN, and now I am quite thoroughly hooked on Varley. He has gone on my (very short) list of authors for whom I have completist tendencies as a result. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 1985 12:24 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: The weapon shops of Isher TWSoI was originally a short story which later became a couple of chapters in the novel. There is also a sequel, "The Weapon Makers" which I found far more enjoyable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 85 12:14:52 EST Cc: tim@cmu-cs-k.arpa Subject: re: Brainstorm loose ends >From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) > The device in Brainstorm did have a number of interesting > possibilities. However, seeing the after-death experience is not > one of them, so the discussion as it stands is moot. There would > be no way for the device to pick up information once brain-death > occurred. In the movie, it just blithely continues to record the > experiences of her soul. No doubt this was made possible by new > astral plane technology they didn't bother to tell us about. > Right. This is known as ``engineering for failure'': let's think of a way that something can't possibly work, assume it works that way, then show how it won't work. Clearly brain-death hadn't happened, since the machine was still recording information from the brain. Those weren't the experiences of her soul, those were subjective impressions of random signals as the brain broke down--a cross between phosphenes and dreaming. That a living observer of these phosphenes interprets them as ``angels'' and a heavenly chorus should hardly be surprising, since 1) we've been primed to do so by a lot of folk-lore, and 2) the uniformity in descriptions of the ``mystical experience'' the effects of drugs, and ``near-death'' experiences might cause us to believe there is some occurence that is common to these states, giving rise to the folk-lore in the first place. It would be easy to mis-interpret that last sentence to mean I think mystical experiences are real. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that these ``visions'' are caused by nervous-system events [ugly term, how can I say that more precisely?--oh, well, trying to describe objectively purely subjective events leads one to such verbal gymnastics] which the conscious mind is trying to interpret in familiar terms. Both Eastern (Buddhist and Hindu) and Western (Christian) mystics describe the mystical experience in much the same way (see Thomas Merton's ``The Wisdom of the Desert'' or his book about Chuang Tzu) but they interpret these experiences according to their own milieu. One might assume that the similarity in descriptions comes from a similarity in experience. And of course we all know about how Acid-heads think they have mystical experiences while tripping. I think the experiences are probably the same, what is different is the (culturally-induced) interpretation. It might have been neat for Brainstorms to have had two witnesses there at the end: the Western-culture neurophysiologist and an Eastern-culture (say Japanese or Indian) neurophysiologist, then do split-screen to show their different interpretations of what was happening. Oh well, it would have been neat for Akira Kurosawa to direct Star Wars (starring Humphrey Bogart or Toshiro Mifune as Han Solo and Lauren Bacall as Princess Leia (with Bacall as Leia, no need for a Luke Skywalker at all, and you can't improve on the choice of Alec Guinness for Obi-wan Kenobi)), too... Of course you might assume that brain-death had occured because of the subjective length of the events (it seemed like a lot longer than the two or three minutes the brain might be expected to still be active) and I assume that was artistic license, since they were obviously having fun with that sequence (and rightfully so). I liked that sequence a great deal. I really loved all the mystical symbols they were able to cram into those scenes, particularly the very first one, just as whats-her-name's ``soul'' went through the ceiling (remember, I'm talking in metaphor, here), and turned away from her body to look upon an infinite net of jewels, each jewel reflecting all the other jewels, each reflection a jewel showing reflections of the others. I think such a description of the mystical experience can be found among Christian mystics and Eastern mystics both. ------------------------------ From: tekig1!markp@topaz.arpa (Mark Pease) Subject: Re: "The Adventures of Mark Twain By Huck Finn" Date: 19 Mar 85 19:11:10 GMT reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP writes: >.... The filmmakers requested that no reviews be printed, as the >film won't be out for about six months..... I saw a "news" artical on a Disney Channel program, called "Epcot Magazine", discribing the Claymation process. They showed several clips from "The Adventures of Mark Twain By Huck Finn". The clips were very good! The flim is a full length adventure story about the travels of Mark Twain with Huck Finn and the rest of the crew of a wild looking ballon (like the one in "Around the World in 80 Days".) This should be a fun film, and I here that it will have its first public showing in Portland, Ore. I'll be one of the first in line! Mark Pease Tektronix, Inc. PO box 500 39-170 Beaverton, Oregon 97077 (503) 627-3559 ...tektronix!tekig1!markp ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jcjeff@topaz.arpa (jeffreys) Subject: Re: V10#97--Who's companions Date: 19 Mar 85 05:13:30 GMT > ..... I don't think, however, that we should forget Nyssa's > departure and What about Tegan ???? She really wanted to come back (the second time), but the Dr. had already left in the Tardis. > Adric's final sacrifice (from the Davison era). Adric's demise was LONG over due, he shouldn't have lasted more than one episode. He never added anything to ANY story, apart from his last one. His *explosive* death was was a fitting end. From the keys of Richard Jeffreys ( British Citizen Overseas ) employed by North American Philips Corporation @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, Illinois ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@topaz.arpa (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: Dr. Who companions Date: 19 Mar 85 21:35:00 GMT > By the way, anybody know of any relation between Tom Baker and >Colin Baker? No, they're not related. (Not to give the impression that 2 out of 6 Britons have Baker as their last name ) A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 11:47 EST From: Marshall.wbst@XEROX.ARPA Subject: V When my daughter (age = 11 years) heard of all the bad things said about the TV show V on this distribution list she made me promise to reply. She loves the show and the various characters in it. She likes the female lizards insulting each other and the Earth child with paranormal powers. So maybe the TV producers know something about their typical audience. --Sidney Marshall ------------------------------ From: nic_vax!brown@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: V Date: 20 Mar 85 19:10:58 GMT > From: Marshall.wbst@XEROX.ARPA > When my daughter (age = 11 years) heard of all the bad things said > about the TV show V on this distribution list she made me promise > to reply. She loves the show and the various characters in it. > She likes the female lizards insulting each other and the Earth > child with paranormal powers. So maybe the TV producers know > something about their typical audience. I hope you had the heart to tell your daughter that this Friday, March 22, is the last episode of the series (as reported in TV Guide) Mr. Video ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 25 Mar 85 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #105 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Mar 85 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #105 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 25 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 105 Today's Topics: Books - Biggle & Brust & Disch & Heinlein & Tolkein & Wrede, Films - Brainstorm, Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) & The Prisoner ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sdcrdcf!markb@topaz.arpa (Mark Biggar) Subject: Jan Darzek books by LLoyd Biggle Jr. Date: 21 Mar 85 20:53:05 GMT There are three of these books: "All the Colors of Darkness" Doubleday 1963 "Watchers of the Dark" Doubleday 1965 "This Darkening Universe" Doubleday 1975 The last is hard to find as the only copies are the original Doubleday hardback. "This Darkening Universe" has never been published in paperback. Mark Biggar ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #97 Date: 22 Mar 85 18:42:35 GMT > From: Laurence R Brothers > Good, another vote for LORD of LIGHT! I don't know about > Connecticut Yankee though, somehow it seemed too "cute" when I > read it. "Cute?" Er, um, may I humbly suggest you re-read it? > By the way, Mr. Brust, are you planning another "Jhereg" novel > soon? I am sure that I and many others would like to learn about > what happened at Deathsgate Falls, and maybe some more about the > creators of the Dragaerans.... "Mr. Brust"???? Aw, c'mon.... I am currently working on TECKLA, which takes place immediatly after JHEREG. The damn things under contract, so I'd better get it done. I have just finished a novel set in East of Dragaera called BROKEDOWN PALACE (any more Deadheads here?) that should be out late this year or early next. The story of Vlad's first visit to Deathgate falls will be in a book called EASTERNER. If I don't get bored with the series, that will be two books down the line. Thanks for asking. - SKZB ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@topaz.arpa (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: Prisoner book Date: 19 Mar 85 17:36:31 GMT This doesn't have a lot to do with the televised version of the Prisoner, but I just wanted to be helpful. By the way, around here, the series ended about mid-January, and there's already been quite a bit of _Secret_Agent_ on. I've read the 1st Prisoner novel, the one by Tom Disch. One of my favorite scenes in it is where he finds 17 cans of film with movies of parts of his life that he doesn't remember. The one he the most of is _The_Schizoid_Man_, the one where a duplicate of number 6 appears. There seem to be some minor differences between the synopsis of the episode and the actual broadcast episode- for instance, the color of the duplicate's clothing, and a final scene [in the novel's summary] which showed the digested remains of the double after Rover was through with him. Perhaps Disch was working from a screenplay. If anyone had read Disch's novels _Camp_Concentration_ and/or _The_Puppies_Of_Terra_ [a.k.a. _Mankind_Under_The_Leash_ alias _White_Fang_Goes_Dingo_], there are quite notable similarities between these two books and Disch's Prisoner novel. In _Puppies_, there is a chapter where 13,000 people escape from the St. Cloud, Minnesota Womens' Penitentiary while presenting a version of Salome` [but since it's for a popular audience, it's called Salami]. In the Prisoner book, there is an escape during _Twelfth_Night_ (I think). In both cases, the main character was unable to escape with the rest. _Camp_Concentration_ is also about a prison which is run by some nameless power. Its purpose is nearly opposite that of the Village; in Camp Archimedes, the inmates have been given a drug to increase their intelligence. They are supposed to be creative instead of conforming. [An annecdote: Disch told Michael Moorcock that he was writing a novel about what everyone wanted to become. Moorcock asked if it was about becoming an elephant, but Disch set him straight: everone wants to be smarter.] [Spoiler in the next paragraph] There is also a segment of _Camp_Concentration_ which is similar to the epsode where 6's mind is switched with someone else's. I'm not sure which came first, although the idea is probably older that either. I really like Disch's writing, because he is extemely literate, and also from Minnesota, so there are a few inside jokes for us Minnesotans. I'd guess that fans of _The_Prisoner_ would like his other work, too. Laurence Roberts ...ihnp4|stolaf|robertsl "Goodness gracious sakes alive/ the bees are buzzing in the hive/ making honey strangely sweet / such as bunnies love to eat" From _On_Wings_of_Song, by Thomas Disch ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 24 Mar 1985 09:59:29-PST From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks dtn 223-9408) Subject: The Number of the Beast "The Number of the Beast", by Robert Heinlein was mentioned in an inquiry - sorry, forgot who asked. If you were wondering about the quality of this story, I have disappointing news for you. Namely, it Bites the proverbial Big One. It's awful. Wretched, not worth the paper, and so on. I am a great fan of Heinlein, and I guarantee no sane human could like this book. Heinlein suffered a stroke and wrote this book as therapy during his recovery - and it stands as a tragic depiction of muddled thinking, ranting, obsession and mania. It was a great joy to us Heinlein fans when "Friday" appeared, signaling the recovery of RAH, the Dragon who Would Not Die. If you read it, don't let your impression of Heinlein become tarnished. Number of the Beast is a fluke, and clearly an exception to the other excellent works Heinlein has given us. maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner [actually tLotR] Date: 24 Mar 85 22:37:32 GMT >> The best English language book of the 20th century is very >> probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". ... >> >> Tolkien held the chair in English at Merton College in Oxford >> for many years, was a master of Middle English and a prolific >> writer. ... > > Since when does academia have a damn thing to do with a good book? > Though Tolkien certainly was extremely imaginative and innovative. > Personally, I find his writing ponderous and the characters a bit > too black and white though certainly they are well above average > books. ... Well, one can expect a professor of English not to make too many grammatical errors. But I agree that academia and good books are not very closely related. I think what makes {\it The Lord of the Rings} so good is the amount of work that went into it. Middle-Earth has a solidity to it that is very impressive. If I am not mistaken, many of the writings that were published in {\it The Silmarillion} were at least outlined before tLotR was completed; they give a sense of history to tLotR. Maybe I'll go read tLotR for the fourth time.... A Elbereth Gilthoniel, silivren penna miriel, In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: new book by Shetterly Date: 22 Mar 85 17:34:24 GMT >> At last able to put down _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ by Will * Shetterly, >> I can now recommend it (it's hard to type and read at the same >> time). L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot > > I must admit that the reviewers for the cover blurb (Brust and > ???), put me off a bit when it was revealed that they and the > author had cooperated in several workshops and publishing houses. > However, I liked Brust's stories (_Jhereg_ and _Rendl_(sp)) very > much. I don't know about ???. ??? is Pat Wrede. I like her books. Especially TALKING TO DRAGONS and THE HARP OF IMACH THYSSAL. As for the recommendations, I am certain that Pat meant hers. I can almost guarantee that Brust meant his. Why does the relationship among the writers change this? Are you aware of the extent to which authors know each other? I'm not. Harlan Ellison recommends Heinlein's FRIDAY. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've met. Does this invalidate the recommendation? The point is that, in writing my recommendation, I felt that people who like my books will probably like Will's. Why? Because I like Will's, and I like mine. Therefore there is certain similarity in the appeal. > I hope that this talented group of people start a new culture of > fantasy: where rules are set down so that they can be broken with > anguish by the characters, where good guys (and the reader) are > misled, and characters willing give up their (god-given) powers. > > Marvelous!!! I am always glad to see almost-mainstream quality > fantasy. -- Thank you for the adjective. If you really want mainstream quality writing in fantasy, I recommend the Gor books of John Norman. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: re: Brainstorm loose ends Date: 23 Mar 85 00:51:49 GMT Talking about Louise Fletcher's death in BRAINSTORM. >Clearly brain-death hadn't happened, since the machine was still >recording information from the brain. Those weren't the >experiences of her soul, those were subjective impressions of >random signals as the brain broke down--a cross between phosphenes >and dreaming. There may be some indication that she was directing them, but it takes some decoding. I think there is the implication that she came from a religious background and still took it seriously. {WOW! How did he get that out of the film???} Well, it's like this. We see her on the roof of a building talking to a man with heavy eyebrows. He obviously is someone whose opinion she considers important. Elsewhere in the film there is a scene in a cathedral and this same heavy-eyebrowed man is leading the service. I believe the end credits also list someonw as a clergyman. This all might imply someone with deep religious convictions who keeps them out of her work. I have known people much like that in the scientific community. Admittedly none of this do I have a really strong case for, but I think the implication is hidden there. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken) Subject: Re: Dr. Who companions Date: 22 Mar 85 18:32:30 GMT >>> By the way, anybody know of any relation between Tom Baker and >>> Colin Baker? >> >> No, they're not related. (Not to give the impression that 2 out >> of 6 Britons have Baker as their last name :-) >> A. G. Percus >> (ARPA) percus@acf4 >> (NYU) percus.acf4 >> (UUCP) >> ...!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!percus > >BUT, Colin Baker does have a son named Tom! Sorry, this is wrong. Colin Baker has only one (living) child. She was born one week ago (15 March) at 8 lb. 11oz. He had fathered a child earlier, but that child succumbed to "cot death" (SIDS). Since that time, Colin and his wife have been in the forefront for fund raising in the UK to fight this disaster. James C Armstrong, Jnr. {ihnp4||allegra||mcnc||cbosgb}!abnji!jca I think he needs more than water, Peri, ay? ------------------------------ From: ihuxp!gayde@topaz.arpa (Peter Gayde) Subject: Re: Dr. Who companions Date: 23 Mar 85 07:54:38 GMT >>BUT, Colin Baker does have a son named Tom! > > Sorry, this is wrong. Colin Baker has only one (living) child. > She was born one week ago (15 March) at 8 lb. 11oz. He had > fathered a child earlier, but that child succumbed to "cot death" > (SIDS). > > Since that time, Colin and his wife have been in the forefront for > fund raising in the UK to fight this disaster. > > James C Armstrong, Jnr. {ihnp4||allegra||mcnc||cbosgb}!abnji!jca My information comes from the October 1983 issue of "Whovian Times", the newsletter of the Doctor Who Fan Club of America. The exact quote is: "Baker is presently 40 years young. He is married to actress Marion Wyatt. He has a seven-year-old son (Tom Baker) from his previous marriage to actress Lisa Goddard! This, of course, is not 'the' Tom Baker known as the Doctor, nor are the two related; but yes, it is ironic." I have no idea how accurate this report is, but it seems to come from a reliable source. Peter Gayde AT&T Technologies Naperville, IL ihnp4!{iwslc,ihuxp}!gayde Work: (312) 979-7598 Home: (312) 963-1109 ------------------------------ Date: March 21, 1985 1515EST From: Richard Subject: Re: Re: Dr. Who companions In response to the many comments about companions Sarah Jane is a popular companion just not one of mine. To me despite her independence, she was boring. Always screaming and complaining. I like Harry he was resourceful in a number of instances. The ark in Space and Genesis of the Daleks where he saved the Doctor's life twice. Louise Jameson (Leela) stared in a BBC mini-series Tenko that was shown on the ARTS network. It is the story of English women in a Japanese prison camp during WW2. This is very different role than Leela, but it shows Jameson`s versatility as an actress. The Doctor did have a soft spot for Romana 11, she was a kindred spirit. I must disagree with a comment about Adric. Adric was an important factor in all of the Baker shows. In Keeper of Traken his relationship with Nyssa is very important and their sabotage of the Source was a crucial part of the story. In Logopolis he was of equal importance. Three companions are too many for one Doctor so the show had to get rid of one and unfortunately they chose Adric. A better choice would have been Tegan whom Adric and Nyssa had to continually put in her place and who caused nothing but trouble. The Doctor is always upset when a major companion leaves. Sarah Jane and he were forced to part when he was called to Gallifrey. He was unhappy when Leela left him to marry Andred. He understood that it was better for Romana to stay in E-Space rather than return to Gallifrey, so she could be her own Romana. He remarks to Adric in Logopolis on how much he misses her. Adric's death was especially hard for the Doctor because scientifically it was possible for the Doctor to go back in time to save him, but this was one rule he couldn't break. Finally when Tegan left him he remarked that he would have to mend his ways. This dictated his action in the next two stories and caused him to give his life for Peri. ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (leeper) Subject: PRISONER Fans: KOROSHI to be run on WOR-TV Date: 24 Mar 85 16:16:05 GMT I have talked to some fans of THE PRISONER who have said they want to see episodes of SECRET AGENT. (SECRET AGENT was Patrick McGoohan's series before THE PRISONER and some have claimed that PRISONER was just a continuation and the unnamed Number 6 is supposed to be John Drake.) In any case, on Thursday, March 28, 4pm, WOR-TV, Channel 9 in New York will run KOROSHI. This is really two episodes of SECRET AGENT. It won't have the Johnny Rivers theme and it is really just mediocre as a spy film, but it you cannot see the series, it will have to do. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 27 Mar 85 1105-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #106 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Mar 85 1105-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #106 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 106 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Biggle & Heinlein (2 msgs) & King & Tepper & Best Novels (2 msgs) & Computers in SF, Films - Japanese Holocaust Film Television - Dr. Who (2 msgs) & V & Otherworld & Secret Agent, Miscellaneous - BayCon '85 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 26 Mar 85 07:37:53 EST From: Howard.Gayle@CMU-CS-G Subject: More Trillian stories? Does anyone know if Poul Anderson wrote any stories, besides "A little knowledge," set on the planet Trillia, or about its inhabitants? If you know of any, please send me mail. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 1985 14:18 EST (Tue) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: sdcrdcf!markb@topaz.arpa (Mark Biggar) Subject: Jan Darzek books by LLoyd Biggle Jr. There is another Jan Darzek book that you haven't mentioned: "Silence is Deadly" Doubleday late 70s, early 80s I think. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Mar 85 10:45:42-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: Digest V10 #105: Heinlein's stroke Beg to differ. Heinlein did NOT suffer a stroke, but WAS at one time suffering from circulation-deficiency problems of the brain. I do not recall the details--and I loaned (permanently, it seems) my copy of _Expanded Universe_ to a friend. However, in one of the non-fiction selections therein, he describes the events which led to his recovery; as I recall, the original version of this essay was his testimony before a Congressional committee looking into "just what the space program has done for us." (NB: The quotes are MY paraphrase.) I agree about the joy at the publication of _Friday_; however, I fear that most RAH fans will disagree with us. I've found that few of them like anything since _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_. (I myself didn't like _Farnham's Freehold_ the first time I read it.) Most of them seem to object most to his reaction to the Panshins' criticism of _Stranger in a Strange Land_, that he couldn't write about sex. Enough fuel for the fires. And a mini-flame: Goulart is as bad as Herbert and Leinster! Rich Alderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 85 11:28 PST From: Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Heinlein's Worst Cc: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA, Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA I'm afraid that Number of the Beast was such an improvement over I Will Fear No Evil that there are not words in my vocabulary to quantify it. Are you certain that IWFNE is not the book written as therapy? On the otherhand, it has been said that this was written while RAH was ill unto dying, until blood donors were found so that an arterial (?) bypass operation could be performed, reversing the rather early onset of senility-not-likely-to-have- been-Alzheimer's., due to a lessening of flow of blood to the brain. Most folk I talk to refer to NotB as the Heinlein Character Convention Novel. It smacked of Last Novel Before I Die, to me, and for the refutation of that feeling was I glad that Friday was published. I have never even bothered to read Farnham's Freehold--I tried once, got ten pages before I couldn't bear it anymore. A. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban) Subject: Eyes of the Dragon Date: 26 Mar 85 14:20:03 GMT Can Jerry Boyajian or anyone else give their opinion of this book by Stephen King (no spoilers, please, I'm waiting for its general release in 1987)? Thanks. Rick Urban ihnp4!cbscc!rsu ------------------------------ From: deepthot!julian@topaz.arpa (Julian Davies) Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper - Song of Mavin Manyshaped Date: 26 Mar 85 00:29:29 GMT I thought this was a good book too. One passage which impressed me in passing was when Mavin explained to Mertyn (a young lad) how it was that women don't appreciate being raped, while acknowledging that they do enjoy sex in appropriate contexts. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Date: 22 Mar 85 18:02:04 GMT I feel your choices are all good ones. The reasons I wouldn't agree with them aren't that they are bad, they merely aren't as perfect as LoL. SONGMASTER, in my humble opinion, falls apart at the end, although it is tremendous up until then. RIDDLE OF STARS is very good, but not up there with the others. Neither Bradley or Eddings are quite good enough word-smiths, and CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS, while I love it muchly, isn't quite accessable enough. I tend to differentiate "This is good" from "I like this." Lord of Light brings everything together. It...oh well. I'm glad this discussion began. I'm enjoying it. - SKZB ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Date: 22 Mar 85 18:32:18 GMT I don't want to put down Tolkien. Heaven knows, I have read the trilogy upwards of thirty times, and I have all of the follow-ups to it (Unfinished Tales, Letters, etc) in hard cover. But, frankly, Tolkien's prose tends to be sloppy. He drags, his characters sometimes seem shallow (they actually aren't when you push it, but you shouldn't have to push it), and the book is loaded with, if not inaccuracies, at least things that push your suspension of disbelief (relationship between the aristocracy and the peasantry, the general lack of disease, errors in transportation) when it comes to the European Middle Ages. His triumph was the telling of a magnificent tale in spite of these problems. The reason that he is used as the standard is because he sold well. If you feel this is a valid standard, than the GOR books of John Norman are equivalent of today. I hope this is not the case. Those who are into poetry don't think much of Tolkien's in many cases. I wouldn't know about that; I love his poetry. I once did a dramatic reading of Gimli's poem that--never mind. As for LORD OF LIGHT--within the context of the story, there are no flaws. After reading it about six times, I found a few plot holes. After reading it about nine times, I understood them to be statements on their own. The book reads well and is accessible. It is a good story. It is yet another, different good story. And a third. At least three different stories (the direct one, involving Sam, Yama, and their merry friends, the story within the context of the Hindu Gods, and the story of the development of the society). And this is BEFORE getting into the real depth of the book. At one level, he is dealing with the conflict between man's desire for individual happiness and his need to improve the world around him. At another level, he is dealing with the relationship between man and the gods that he creates. At another, he is making a statement about the effect of technology on man--his own deification. At another, on the process of maturation, individual and societal. And at another, on our perceptions of the world around us, and how this effects our ability to change it. Yet again, on the relationship between knowledge and the need to act on this knowledge. And on the nature of pride--good and bad. This is only a part of it. I once made a list of the different levels of the story and, while I don't remember the total list, it was quite impressive. I don't think I've read the book more than fifty times, so I'm sure there are plenty that I missed. Every time I read it I come away with something new. Each level is carried to full fruition in a book less than 400 pages long. And this, by the way, is without getting into additional things he may be saying by obscure metaphor, on which I'm not prepared to comment. His characterizations are beautiful and powerful both in the sense that characters are easily distinguishable from each other by both content and style of speech, and in the depth that each one has. In the book, as in life, there is not a single character who is on for more than three pages who doesn't change throughout the book. His prose and dialogue are perfect. The mechanics of the writing are without flaw. And above all, he never for an instant forgets that his job as a novelist is to tell an enjoyable story, and he does. The first two or three times I read it, I wasn't aware that there was anything more to it than it. It is incomparable. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Mon 25 Mar 85 14:49:54-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #104 There are a few "machine as a [vaguely] benign despot" stories floating around. Jack Williamson's _Humanoids_ books have somewhat of that flavor, although the machines are *very* determined to be both benign and despotic. Were I less comatose, I could think of others. Bard Bloom. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 25 Mar 1985 10:18:13-PST From: tighe%dice.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Mark J. Tighe, @CXO - DTN 522-2400) Subject: request for Japanese Holocaust film. I have it. Hi there. I got second handed a request for information on the Japanese Holocaust film. I was IN Hiroshima last January (1985) and saw several. I was fortunate enough to be able to bring back an English translation of the film entitled "Hirosima and Nagasaki - the Harvest of Nuclear War." It is an EXTREMELY interesting and well done film. I would HIGHLY advise that as many people as possible see it. By the way, there is NOT a SINGLE note of anti-American propadanda in the entire film (45 min long). It is simply factual information of what occured. Please make this information as WIDELY available as possible. (On several wide distribution lists/nets if possible.) I would be more than happy to loan/distribute/give info on how to get it to as many folks as would like. I have the VHS format, it is available in both VHS and beta. Anyone: please feel free to contact me directly about the film. enet::: DECWRL::RHEA::DICE::TIGHE work:: (303) 594-2400 home:: Mark J. Tighe 460 White Tail Way Monument, CO 80132 (303) 488-2763 p.s. warning: the film has some very explicit footage that is not normally seen on US TV. it is however, extraordinarily factual. ------------------------------ Date: 19850326-0018EST From: BLUEINC%UMASS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Help Save the Doctor| The BBC has decided to put DOCTOR WHO on 'hiatus' for at least 18 months. The longest running science fiction program in the world stands in imminent danger of cancellation The Doctor needs your support. Write: The Honorable Nigel Dawson Chancellor 11 Downing Street London England Alasdair Milne Director General BBC-TV White City London W12 England William Cotton Managing Director BBC-TV White City London W12 England Remember: Time is of the essence. Preproduction to the next season was sceduled to begin around April 1. We can still fight the decision if you make your voices heard now| ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 Mar 1985 08:00-EST From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Dr. Who Companions In the spirit of the times, my nominations for best companion are: 1) Peri, 2) Nyssa and 3) Leela in that order. Although the award for the best performance by a companion I feel goes to Leela for "The Talons of Wang Chiang". My award for best story goes to "The Invasion of Time" (so far) with honorable mention in the acceptance speech going to "The Pyramids of Mars". I feel Peri is the most "human" (as Savik would say) of the companions (besides having the best looks in my opinion). Her character has no gimmicks or strings attached like the others (eg. Leela the savage, Romama the over-educated, Tegan the obnoxious, Sarah Jane the wimpy, and Nyssa the Good-looking who in every story wears less and less until she finally disappeared...did I get them all?). wesm@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ From: allegra!don@topaz.arpa (Don Mitchell) Subject: V Date: 26 Mar 85 14:18:28 GMT I tend to watch Sci-Fi compulsively, so I am overjoyed to hear that "V" has been canceled! Not only was this show stupid, I really found it to be offensive. What kind of message was this show suppose to be giving to children? Why put all this soap-opera sex on a children's show? Also, the most offensive thing I have ever seen on prime time was the mincing homosexual alien who appeared in the last few episodes. The writers of this show must be a bunch of jerks. ------------------------------ From: allegra!don@topaz.arpa (Don Mitchell) Subject: Otherworld Date: 26 Mar 85 14:18:28 GMT Has anyone been watching "Otherworld"? It's pretty dumb too, but not quite as offensive as V. The strange thing about this show is the arty production and direction. Sort of a wasted effort, really. The last episode was set in a city ruled by a corporate dictatorship and ended with a worker's revolt. Now there is a show looking to get cancelled! ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: KOROSHI, Danger Man, Secret Agent, Prisoner Date: 26 Mar 85 20:34:09 GMT From my mailbox, but of general interest: >The series here in England preceding the Prisoner was called Danger >Man. I am assuming that this is the same programme as Secret >Agent. The prisoner IS a follow on from Danger Man as the opening >credits for Prisoner show Danger Mans London flat and his Lotus >car. In the last episode of Danger Man John Drake resigns and >refuses to give any reasons for his resignation. He is drugged at >his flat and taken to the village, given the number 6 and a whole >new series was born. You can take this as correct as i was a fan >of the prisoner when it was first shown here in 1968. In the US there were three not-very-distinct series. We got a program called DANGER MAN. It was a half-hour tv series and it introduced the character John Drake. I believe it ran on Saturday nights on CBS. The series was replaced by SECRET AGENT. This was a more lavish version of the same series and the episodes were an hour in length. Reportedly at this time the idea was to turn Drake into a womanizing copy of James Bond but McGoohan himself rebelled. It may well be that it was considered one series called DANGER MAN in England, however. Here it was introduced each week with a specially written musical theme by Johnny Rivers "Secret Agent Man." The song became popular on the radio, incidently. Since Rivers is an American, I think, it is possible that the American version was repackaged with a different title. Somehow I find it surprising that there was not a British series called SECRET AGENT. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: wdl1!jrb@topaz.arpa Subject: BayCon '85 Science Programming Date: 23 Mar 85 02:23:38 GMT I'm working on the committee for the upcoming BayCon '85 Science Fiction Convention to be held Memorial Day weekend at the Red Lion Inn in San Jose. We are currently trying to come up with an interesting science track for our programming. If you have any ideas, please let me know. John R Blaker UUCP: ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb ARPA: jrb@FORD-WDL1 and blaker@FORD-WDL2 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 29 Mar 85 1139-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #107 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Mar 85 1139-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #107 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 29 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 107 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Asimov & Biggle & Heinlein (2 msgs) & The Enchanted Duplicator & Story Request & Nebula Anthology #17 & Cover Blurbs (2 msgs) Memory Recording & Female Writers & Hell-cats of Sansato, Miscellaneous - Best X & SF Book Club ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thursday, 28 Mar 1985 02:14:49-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: More Trillian stories? > From: Howard.Gayle@CMU-CS-G > Does anyone know if Poul Anderson wrote any stories, besides "A > little knowledge," set on the planet Trillia, or about its > inhabitants? If you know of any, please send me mail. "A Little Knowledge" is part of Anderson's Polesotechnic History, but is the only story, as far as I know, that deals with this particular planet or its inhabitants. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 28 Mar 1985 13:27:49-PST From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: heart attacks and other illnesses... Speaking of wonderful writers dying... How is Isaac Asimov doing? I read early last year that he had a heart attack, but I haven't read (or heard) anything since. Did he indeed have a heart attack? If he did, is he alright? and what is he up to now? Also, does he have a "public" address? Thanks in advance!!! gaylene ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Jan Darzek books by LLoyd Biggle Jr. Date: 25 Mar 85 18:36:21 GMT > There are three of these books: > > "All the Colors of Darkness" Doubleday 1963 > "Watchers of the Dark" Doubleday 1965 > "This Darkening Universe" Doubleday 1975 > > The last is hard to find as the only copies are the original > Doubleday hardback. "This Darkening Universe" has never been > published in paperback. > Mark Biggar You forgot one. "Silence is deadly" which I believe is also a Doubleday. Not a Darzek but unquestionably my favorite Biggle, however, is "The Small Still Voice of Trumpets" hard to find but in my book worth it. David Albrecht ------------------------------ Date: 26 Mar 85 09:47:40 EST (Tuesday) Subject: RE: The Number of the Beast From: Brenda >>It's awful. Wretched, not worth the paper, and so on. I am a >>great fan of Heinlein, and I guarantee no sane human could like >>this book.... FLAME HIGH Well, its always nice to know what other people think of you, even when they've never met you!! I think we should leave personal attacks out of the reviews on this DL. While it does illustrate the extent of your feelings, I think that another way could be found -- one that does not insult or degrade other human beings who have as much right to their opinions as you do to yours. FLAME OFF Anyway, about TNOTB -- I liked it, all except the ending. It was definitely not Heinlein's best, probably the worst, but it had its moments. The encounter of two of my all-time favorite protagonists and the alternate universes made reading this book worthwhile for me. It is obviously written for the author, much in the same way Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions was his 50th (40th?) birthday present to himself. If you have never read any Heinlein, I would not recommend you read TNOTB first. Anything earlier is fantastic (yes, I admit it -- I'm a Heinlein fan), and Friday is definitely better, although still not up to his usual standards. JOB, however, is fantastic and by far one of the best books ~Brenda ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: The Number of the Beast Date: 26 Mar 85 16:03:02 GMT Odd, I actually *liked* Number of the Beast. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Sat 23 Mar 85 01:47:43-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The enchanted duplicator... I would like to get in touch with Walt Willis and/or Bob Shaw, the authors of The Enchanted Duplicator. While I doubt that they have net addresses, does anyone have phone numbers and/or Snail Mail addresses? Please respond directly to me. Thanks, Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Mar 85 02:01:27 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Anyone recognize this? A government employee, investigating packages and letters from individuals classified as potential subversives, finds a suspicious parcel. This is the second such parcel he has observed in the last few months. Opening the parcel reveals a photograph and letter. The short story was a great shocker, but I don't remember where I read it. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 26 Mar 1985 03:24:43-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Nebula Awards Anthology #17 > From: homxa!loucl@topaz (L.CHANLIZAROO) > I am looking for the Nebula Award anthology 17. I believe book 16 > was edited by Herbert or Pournelle, and book 18 was editied by > Silverberg. Could somebody please tell me if book 17 exists at > all, who the editor is, and is it available in hard, trade or > paper back form? Thanks in advance. NEBULA AWARDS #17 was edited by Joe Haldeman, and is scheduled for a paperback edition from Ace Books in May. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot) Subject: cover blurbs Date: 27 Mar 85 00:16:57 GMT I suppose I incorporate past behavior of cover-blurb authors when thinking about a new cover blurb. But names like "Cleveland Plains Dealer" (all my Cleveland friends must have mispronounced "Plains", then) and "L A Times" are pretty anonymous--usually you don't see who it was at the paper who made the review, whether they've left since the last reliable review. I prefer to trust the reviews of the informed, or at least the interested, in whatever the particular field is--a review indicating the reviewer doesn't understand the field or the conventions of the genre isn't going to help me much if I'm fluent in the field or the genre, although it may be of use to those considering making a reader's entrance. The status of the cover-blurb author may not be information I have, whether the person is famous, known, unknown, unpublished, or not an author; also, fame doesn't necessarily imply or deny critical ability or thought. I've never seen any paper from Cleveland (or Minneapolis). I just named an oft seen newspaper, which is why I chose it, not to put down Cleveland. Does it have reliable reviews? The kind of person who recommends friends indiscriminately is often easy to distinguish. And I'm unpublished which is easy to be when one is not a writer. (I had a vague feeling I was being accused of print-envy.) L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Re-recommendation of _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ Date: 26 Mar 85 16:23:41 GMT > Reviews by Plain Dealers [distance breeds ignorance]. Faint > praise from Famous Authors, Not-So-Famous Authors, Wish-To-Be > Famous Authors [as in damning with ...]. Excerpted reviews (lots > of ellipses) [what did they leave out and why?]. Misleading or > spoiler cover blurbs [reducing anticipation]. Irrelevant cover > art [so what if he's brunet and 5'4", he acts like Adonis]. You remind me of a project for somewhen. I want to write a sort of ok type SF novel and prime the cover quotes. First of all, on the back it could say, "Better science than Tolkien! Better world building than Spider Robinson! Better characterizations than Hogan! Better dialogue than Asimov! ..." etc. etc. Then, on the inside, fill it with quotes from reviewers and famous authors. Things like, "Not a bad read." and "All right for long plane trips." and "I've read worse." "Not great, but not bad." I'm sure no publisher would go along with it, but it would interesting to how the public would react. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 85 18:46:47 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Memory recording stories There has been some discussion (started by "Brainstorm", a movie which I must confess I haven't seen) about recording/transmission of human thoughts, and about stories concerning the same. Here are a few that I remember: "The Dueling Machine" by Ben Bova. Set in a far-future galactic empire, this is about a machine which projects two "players" into a fantasy landscape created by computer. The players can do anything to each other in the game, which ends when one surrenders. It is intended to be used as a means to peacefully settle disputes, but various nasties find ways to do unpleasant things with it. "The Mueller-Fokker Effect" by John Sladek. A very very strange book, stylistically similar to the /Illuminatus/ series, which concerns, among a few dozen other plots, a man who "volunteers" for a government experiment which transfers his personality and memories to magnetic tape, after which his body is accidentally destroyed. It turns out, though, that his "soul" attains consciousness of a sort while in the tape . . . [I believe this one is out of print. Too bad. Does anyone know if it's still around, or if Sladek wrote anything else besides this and /The Best of John Sladek/ ??] A book whose title escapes me, by D.G. Compton, which strikes me as being *very* similar to what I've heard about Brainstorm, about a small company which develops an "experience- recording" device. As I recall, one of the things that they made tapes of was a sex act (with partners solicited by personal ads), and the machines were eventually sold, along with tapes. The novels "A World Out Of Time" and "Integral Trees" by Larry Niven also use the idea of putting a human's personality into a computer, as does his Berserker story, "A Teardrop Falls" (in /Limits/). John Varley's future history also has people's minds being recoded (on "Ferro-Photo-Nucleic Acid") and played into clones upon the original body's death. Also see the movie "Dreamscape". Whee! There must be dozens more stories on this theme . . . --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Fri 29 Mar 85 00:50:19-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Women writers I may have missed the beginning of this, but I haven't seen P.C. Hodgell (_God_Stalk_) on any recent lists. Pax VAXque tecum, Bard ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jcgowl@topaz.arpa (r. gowland) Subject: Hell-cats of Sansato Date: 28 Mar 85 17:51:41 GMT Can anyone tell me the author of this short story which I read umpteen years ago? I can't even remember much about the story except that to a teenager it seemed exciting. Thanks in anticipation ... ihlpg!jcgowl Roger R. Gowland at AT&T Bell Labs, Indian Hill now appearing back here for one week only and going home Friday to ... hvmga!rgowland at APT UK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 85 11:26:57 EST From: Julian R. Long Subject: Best X in the Cosmos >Why so many people in this group and others feel compelled to make >statements about the "best X of all times" is beyond me. Have you >Please, people, you're just begging for flames with postings like >this. Each of us has books/films/songs that he or she is Maybe thats exaclty the kind of reaction we are trying to get ? Appreciation of Art, in this case literature, is very subjective. It may well be impossible to say what is the "best x in the world" since there are no standards by which to measure them . All minds are different , minds are responsible for processing the information, each mind comes up with a different result/experience , e.g if the information processor is different in every case (different instruction set) , then the meaning of the information (program) is different in each case . Therefore each mind has itself as the only standard by which it can measure , shall we say comparatively , the qualities of a book . A mind is only able to conceive of what it has experienced , therefore something that it considers to be comparatively the "best", because it cannot conceive anything else , and because its only standard is itself , IS the best in its world . No other mind can tell the mind it is wrong . The other mind might find it wrong because its interpretation of the information is different and its base of experience for comparision different . Of course i would like to add , i think , probably , in my (minds) experience , although i could be wrong etc .. If you buy that , you'll buy anything .... -julian long Dept of Neurological Reasarch Vicksburg University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 85 10:15 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: SF Book Club Over the last two months, a discussion of the Science Fiction Book Club has been occurring. As a member, I have been reading with interest the various messages. I recently received the lastest selection of books, and I thought it might be helpful to give some examples from it. The two main selections are: The Belgariad: Part Two by David Eddings, and So Long and Thanks for all the Fish by Douglas Adams. The first of these consists of a combined set of the last two books of the Belgariad: Castle of Wizardry and Enchanter's End Game. Now I admit that these books have been out in paperback for a little while, but the key to this offering is the price: $7.98. This is about how much you would spend for the paperback versions of these together. The second book offering is a little different. The fourth book of the Hitchhiker's Trilogy is not out in paperback yet. And the price is good: $4.98. This is slightly more than you would pay for the paperback, and you get a hardcover book (admittedly not the most superb quality, but good nonetheless). Glancing over the other titles offered I find the following: The Belgariad: Part One, Berserker Base, the three Heechee books, Port Eternity by Cherryh, The Crucible of Time by Brunner, Bishop's Heir by Kurtz, the collected versions of the Sanctuary books: Sanctuary and Cross-Currents, the Celestial Steam Locomotive and Gods of the Greataway by Coney. This is about a third of the books. Now this should give you an idea of the selection available, the relative price, and the timeliness of their release. For information about the individual books involved, read previous volumes of this rag. Brett Slocum (ARPA: Slocum@HI-MULTICS) (UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Mar 85 1207-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #108 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 30 Mar 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 108 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Eddison & Goulart & Tolkien & Zelazny, Films - Brainstorm (2 msgs) & Wizards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Steven Brust Date: 26 Mar 85 17:24:15 GMT > 1) Why was "Jhereg" published first, followed by "Yendi"? > The chronological order, should be: > "Jhereg" prologue, "Yendi", "Jhereg" body. > If the books are read in order of publication, then > "Jhereg" gives away a lot of the action that should > be a suprise in "Yendi". JHEREG was published first because I wrote it first. Furthermore, when I wrote it, I had no idea anyone was going to want to actually PUBLISH it. I mean what? Me? I'm sorry you feel JHEREG gives away surprises. Those were supposed to be teasers. Anyway, the order of books to date (and future) is: JHEREG TO REIGN IN HELL YENDI BROKEDOWN PALACE (Jan. '86) TECKLA (In progress). > 2) Are there plans for any more "Vlad Taltos" novels? > If so, when can they be expected, and where will > they fall in the already confusing chronology? Chronologicaly, the order is as follows: EASTERNER (maybe 1990???) YENDI JHEREG TECKLA It is possible there will be others (and not certain EASTERNER will be written) depending on whether I feel there is anything worthwhile to write about these characters. Thanks for asking. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: tekchips!kentb@topaz.arpa (Kent Beck) Subject: Re: Steven Brust Date: 26 Mar 85 01:33:55 GMT > From: hmiller@mit-speaker (Herbert A Miller) > 1) Why was "Jhereg" published first, followed by "Yendi"? > The chronological order, should be: > "Jhereg" prologue, "Yendi", "Jhereg" body. > If the books are read in order of publication, then > "Jhereg" gives away a lot of the action that should > be a suprise in "Yendi". Don't believe it for a minute. These novels were written to be read backwards. Recently someone else on the net claimed that they should be read in chronological order, so to prove it to myself, I did (I might add that I have read them in published order several times). Yuch!!! There is far more information given away reading "Yendi" first than the other way around. One of the beauties of these books is that "Jhereg" sets up several puzzles that are solved in "Yendi," and they are intended to be read that way. Now, Steven, when are we going to find out what happened at Deathsgate Falls? Kent Beck uucp: tektronix!tekchips!kentb CSNet: kentb@tektronix ------------------------------ Date: Wed 27 Mar 85 12:23:09-PST From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon Subject: Group minds, first books, etc. Once again, I am forwarding a message for my friend suffering under the totalitarian control which prevents her from openly taking part in the discourse found in this BBoard. As she has never been known to keep her mouth shut for long, I am not terribly suprised. Fortunately, I generally enjoy that (large amount) which she has to say. Anyway, here goes... Re : Group Minds, First Books, Etc. & So Forth Just as a note, Kate Wilhelm's _Where_Late_the_Sweet_Birds_Sang had group minds. My votes for the best first novels go to PC Hodgell and Steven (KZ) Brust. (Zelazny aside & included) semi-spoiler warning I desperately liked _God_Stalk_ and hope that a sequel will come out. (Does anyone know why Jame is 10 years approx younger than Tori? Why she was cast out? Where she spent those years? Why she had (genetic) differences to start off with? Who her mother might have been? If Bane was her brother? Why Bane's Mother might have left? How there can be half-breed (etc) high borns? If so, can they interbreed with the Arrin-ken (sp?)? If the breed started off all the same? What a truncheon is? Is the Innkeeper also Mistress Abernia (sp?)? If so, how can they both talk at once? Is there perhaps another person there (sex unknown) who we don't know? What does Jame do with Jorin when she leaves to go off with whats-his-face-the-guard?) However, my absolutely favorite first novel (and second and third) was by Steven Brust. (Yes, I liked Zelazny, but...) However, reading it, I got the vague impression that this might have been his second or so novel but PUBLISHED first. Of course, I could be wrong and if so, I am phenomenally overwhelmed by awe. As far as Jhereg/Yendi/T.R.I.H. : Does anyone know what the young girl with the brown eyes is doing in all the books? Guesses of what Kragar (sp?) did to be kicked out of the House of the Dragon? What the hell is the backround behind Sethra? Any interesting ideas about the Jenoine? How Aliera knew about Vlad? What the east is like? Who is Aliera's child's father? (that is, re :flashback/ ahead? in Yendi) Could it (gasp, hope) be Kragar? What the window in the tower is looking out into? How the necromancer is caught up in this? What is dead vs undead? Why Vlad, et. al. originally went into the paths of the dead for or to do? If Vlad is not genetically of the Dragaerians, why could he create chaos. Who are those strange races vaguely alluded to who make nifty wine and deadly daggers? Do the daggers actually kill the immortal soul or merely capture them? Just as a note, As far as Zelazny goes, my simple rule is If it is written in first person, buy it. Otherwise, wait for someone else to read it first. (Does anyone know if Trumps of Doom will be told by Corwin????) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 29 Mar 85 00:48:19-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Best F&SF novel I'd like to throw E.R. Eddison's _The_Worm_Ouroboros_ and its ?sequels? the Zimiamvia trilogy into the Best SF Book fray. They probably won't beat Lord of Light, even for me. But they're the best I've read in the Tolkein school (more amazing since they were written before Tolkein). They have the good qualities that everyone's been claiming for Tolkein -- good world construction (Tolkein designed languages; Eddison designed philosophies), lots of detail, and so on. But all of Eddison's major characters (and many minor ones, too) are strong -- the evil ones are as interesting and real as the good ones. I know Corsus and Corinius a -lot- better than I know the King of the Nazgul and Sauron -- or Niritti the Black or Ganesha, for that matter. (On the other talon, Eddison's prose is every bit as light and fluffy as a neutron star to many people (others think it's superb); he goes overboard in descriptions of palaces; and he introduces a narrator at the beginning of the book and forgets him after about fifty pages. He doesn't have all those layers of meaning that Steven Brust sang about, either; though he does have his own subtleties. He died about a third of the way through the last of the Zimiamvian trilogy; but then Tolkein died at a bad time too.) The Immoral Bard. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 27 Mar 85 19:54:50-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Goulart Cc: alderson@SU-SCORE.ARPA VERY true. Goulart's stuff is not only written very poorly, it is not funny at all. I haven't liked any of his stuff, even though the guy gave me an autographed advance ad for the dreadful Starhawks comic (which I lost....) However, enough people must like it for the man to earn a living writing the stuff.... -Laurence ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!dts@topaz.arpa (Danny Sharpe) Subject: Re: J.R.R. Tolkien Date: 25 Mar 85 14:28:29 GMT milne@uci-icse lists some of Tolkien's works: > - The Silmarillion (posthumous; completed and edited by > Tolkien's son. > - Unfinished Tails > - The Road Goes Ever On and On > - The Adventures of Tom Bombadil > - Leaf by Niggle You've missed some: Tolkien's son is editing three more books along the same lines as _Unfinished_Tales_. Two are out already (_The_Book_of_Lost_ Tales Parts 1 and 2). The third one I think will be called _The_Lays_ of_Beleriand_. Then there's a book of essays and lectures called _The_ Monsters_ and_the_Critics_, also edited by his son. In one of the lectures ("The Secret Vice") he talks about his passion for inventing languages and why he did so. Then there are two more books: _The_Father_Christmas_Letters_, a collection of letters written by Father Christmas (actually by Tolkien) and delivered to Tolkien's children at Christmas, and another short book which I haven't read called _Mr._Bliss_. And you can get some of his translations from Old English (like _Finn_and_Hengest_, etc.). Caedmon puts out (or used to) several record albums: _Poems_and_ Songs_of_Middle_Earth (which is a recording of the music in _The_Road_Goes_Ever_On_), two records of Tolkien reading from _The_Hobbit_ and TLOTR, and a record of Christopher Tolkien reading from _The_Silmarillion_. There is some Elvish on a couple of the albums. (I don't know if all these are still in print, but I've seen them at Oxford Book Store, 2345 Peachtree Road NE, Atlanta GA, zipcode unknown.) > However, never in all my readings have I encountered anything >that even approaches The Lord of the Rings in stature, even the >things I've read and re-read with undiminished pleasure. Its >impression on me is so strong that I'll risk sticking my neck out >and calling it "the best" with no more qualification than a >"probably". Which, as a subsequent message rightly pointed out, is >most unwise practice. ... > One other point: when I said "prolific", I did not mean in the >sense of being a veritable book factory. I was thinking rather of >Tolkien's ability to pursue his explorations of the intertwined >histories of Middle Earth, and its languages and cultures, in >seemingly unending depth and detail along so many different paths, >while never losing the beauty of the epic. Those explorations have >produced the works I listed above: not many, by some standards, but >great by almost any. This unceasing power in his writing is what I >meant by "prolific". I heartily agree. I don't know of any other world, created by any other author, that is both as deep and as broad as Middle Earth. One of several reasons Tolkien invented the place was to give the English people a body of myths, and he spent most of his life working on it. I think he did a good job, and if we forget his work it'll be to our shame. I won't call his work "the best" or "the most enjoyable", but I will say it's a large body of work and it has depth and much beauty for anyone who cares to look. You don't have to dig deep to find the good qualities. Danny Sharpe School of ICS Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts ------------------------------ Subject: Lord of Light - how Zelazny did it Date: 27 Mar 85 23:34:19 EST (Wed) From: Mike O'Brien Emotionally I agree with Steve Brust's assessment of LoL - when I ask the impossible question of "what's your favorite novel", this one comes to the top, except when I claim it's "The Book of the New Sun". The only reason I don't also agree intellectually is that I'm too much of an intellectual coward. I remember Zelazny saying some years ago how he got the idea. He was at an SF con, and cut himself shaving one morning. He looked at the blood, and started thinking about blood, and started thinking about death, and started thinking about Kali, goddess of Death, and by the end of the day, LoL was mostly plotted. Almost made me run right out and buy a straight razor. Sometimes, to amuse myself, I try to characterize novels which I like in impossibly short similes. I like Brust's works to date, and characterize them as "Philip Marlowe comes to Lankhmar". Boy am I glad I don't have to live in HIS world! ------------------------------ From: orca!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine) Subject: Re: Brainstorm loose ends Date: 25 Mar 85 18:12:50 GMT >Clearly brain-death hadn't happened, since the machine was still >recording information from the brain. Those weren't the >experiences of her soul, those were subjective impressions of >random signals as the brain broke down... I thoroughly agree with this interpretation. I'd come to the same conclusions myself. However, I happened to catch Brainstorm again last night, and I noticed that the final scene, with the angels and all that, occurred in Brace's (Christopher Walken's) mind after the tape ran out! This can be interpreted in (at least) two ways: a) Brace's mind was locked into "something beyond this world" by following the brain patterns of a dying person, and would have continued to the Beyond if his wife hadn't brought him back. b) Brace's mind was slightly deranged by "subjective impressions of random signals," and continued the sequence according to the dictates of his (Brace's!) religious training. I think that the angels did not appear until after the tape ran out. I don't think there's any evidence in the film that Trumbull intended it either way. As in any fiction with depth, there's room for interpretation by the viewer. Neat simile at the end: the conclusion of the film takes place at Kitty Hawk. The Wright Brothers' first flight was less than the wingspan of a modern airliner. This first 'flight' of Brainstorm took us to the edge of Infinity... where might we go from here? This is a fine film about the development of a technology. What's Trumbull doing today? David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl) [UUCP] (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Brainstorm loose ends Date: 27 Mar 85 02:43:38 GMT It seems clear to me that the "brain death" interpretation is not what was intended by the writer. Such things as the angels and her looking down upon her body clearly imply that what is being experienced is the beginning of the afterlife, and not random signals flickering through a crashing biocomputer. The whole story is structured as a mystical quest to discover the nature of the after-death experience. What dramatic tension is there in "I MUST find out what the subjective experience of brain death is like!" The issue is never mentioned in the movie. No one speculates that perhaps what she is experiencing is merely brain death. The issue obviously never occurred to the writer at all, or there would be some mention of it. Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed 27 Mar 85 20:01:28-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #106 I saw the film WIZARDS again recently. Though admittedly it has a number of flaws, this is perhaps my favorite sf/fantasy movie, and it outdoes most of the mainstream movies I can think of too. Anyone else have any comment here? Does anyone know if Bakshi has been doing anything else lately? Outside of FRITZ THE CAT and WIZARDS, I don't think very much of his work; in particular I abominate the repulsive LORD OF THE RINGS (part 1) with the Amerind Strider and the roly-poly ents. I waited with a bunch of friends four hours for the first showing at the Ziegfield in New York, and can still feel disappointed and let down if I try.... -Laurence ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Apr 85 0956-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #109 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 109.5 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Asprin & Bradley & Niven & A Book Request & Book Request Answered, Films - Dr. Who & Star Trek IV & Movie Review Television - Dr. Who & 60's Show Request, Miscellaneous - New SF Book Club ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Apr 85 09:33:48 EST From: ny!longisland!novascotia!callahans!robinson@topaz Subject: New Hitchhiker Book I saw an interview in a magazine with Doug Adams where he said he was working on a new book in the Hitchhiker series. The book will be titled "Cricket, Anyone?". Part of the story will be how Arthur meets his American cousin, Bucky, and the two of them wind up traveling through time to Camelot. Anyone else heard about this?? ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 85 16:30:43 EST From: SHERMAN@RU-BLUE.ARPA Subject: Book Review - "The Mythbegotten Danger" "The Mythbegotten Danger" is the sixth book in the Robert Asprin series involving the apprentice Skeeve and the Pervert (ah, excuse me, Prevert!) Ahz. Ahz is, of course, the conniving magicker whom Dworkin called into the world to impress Skeeve just as an assassin bumped him off. Since the first novel ("Another Fine Myth") Skeeve has been getting increasingly mature and competent, so it should come as no surprise that in this latest novel he gets bored with living at home (no MTV) and gets his own digs on the far side of the Bazaar. However, as anyone who reads this series knows, nothing is ever simple! Tensions flare between Skeeve and Ahz; so much, in fact, that Ahz decides to teach Skeeve a lesson in humility and concocts a scheme to put him in his place... once and for all! One fine day as Skeeve is out looking for bargains in the Bazaar, a large and ferocious thing which looks like a milk bottle pours a few gallons of white sticky fluid all over his tunic. Although Skeeve is originally polite about the whole incident, anger flares when he visits Tananda and she informs him of the true nature of the spill! Enraged, Skeeve grabs a new set of clothes from his small closet and runs outside, where he is abducted by five Amazons who don't like men very much. Later that day he is tied down to a giant cucumber and made to recite cereal commercials while they abuse him. After a couple of days of this Skeeve begs to be let free. The leader of the group, Vagenella, says "sure" and coolly castrates him!! Dumped in the most dangerous part of town, without money or clothes (but with plenty of hickeys), Skeeve is forced to disguise himself as a fashion model in order to earn some extra money for cab fare. While displaying a pink lace dress with black seam stockings for a client, a sudden knocking at the door reveals a platoon of Battledroids who state that Skeeve is wanted for treason by order of the Imperial Brain-Bot in the district of Eybriem. A tremendous fight ensues. Skeeve rips his stockings and manages to short circuit one of the `droids. However the resulting explosion creates a serious space/time warp which sends them all hurtling into the far distant future. Then the plot really gets complex, as Skeeve has to evade the pursuing Battledroids while attempting to banish the totalitarian leader E-D-Ameen Wajda, a Wombat with a terrible lisp. By the third chapter matters get totally out of hand, with virtually every character who has ever been in any of the books showing up (I refuse to reveal why)!!! To sum up, a resounding success for Mr. Asprin. By killing one of the main characters he has gotten himself out of a literary rut and has shifted the emphasis of the series. Also, the expanded size (640 pages) has enabled extensive character and plot development to take place, an occurrence which never had a chance at being fulfilled before. The return of Ahz's power and the resulting clash at the end make for good reading, although the bloodletting tends to be a bit excessive. Chapter 45 is particularly endearing, as Luanna and Ahz marry atop the Love Moat. *Steve* ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 95 21:40:07 EST From: Charles Hedrick Subject: New Darkover book This book marks somewhat of a new trend in science fiction, as well-known hard SF writer Dr. Forward has collaborated with Marian Zimmer Bradley to produce a book that combines Bradley's typical swords-and-sorcery outlook with careful handling of scientific issues. Entitled "Sharra's Revenge", this book deals with the consequences of psychic power that gets out of control. The book begins with a group of fanatical feminist Sharra-worshipers who find an ancient level 13 matrix weapon buried in a cave. Those of you who are familiar with the Darkover world will know that a level 13 matrix is nothing to fool around with. Unfortunately, the feminist cabal decides to use the weapon to rid the world of male chauvinist pigs. Because of the large number of such pigs on Darkover, the resulting displacement of mass is sufficient to destabilize the star Darkover. This part of the story is told from the viewpoint of an astronomer in the Terran research group. One of the most exciting parts of the book is his brilliant derivation (after 21 pages of tensor mathematics, which is shown in full) of a new formulation of Einstein's equation. By using the quantum hagiodynamics of spin 5 bosons, he is able to .... Well, I think I should stop here in order to avoid a spoiler rating. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 86 10:21:14 EST From: down!wemadeit!wunderland!lookitthat!jinx!Schaeffer@topaz Subject: Niven I just heard on the news on my way into work this morning that Larry Niven had died. The news reporter said: "The famous SF author and winner of several Hugo and Nebula awards, was died this morning. Early reports indicate that he died from starvation. "His wife, known to the world as 'Fuzzy Pink' said that for the last 3 months, Larry was eating nothing but the fibrous root of a tree he had found growing in the yard. His last words according to his wife were, 'It grew wrong'. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 85 21:19:58 EST From: ihnp4!allegra!ucb-vax!ut-sally!larry!moe!curly!sri-unix!purdue!d From: ecvax!cornell!bugs-bunny!ncoast!hplabs!teklabs!mit-vax!seismo!uc From: la-cs!duke!scgvaxd!harvard!hugo!csi!yale!princeton!fluke!decwrl! From: coke!pegasus!uw-beaver!mordor!vortex!shasta!ccvaxa!pur-ee!dunce@ From: topaz Subject: Book Request I am trying to find a book that I read a few years ago. Unfortunately I can't remember either the title or the author. All I remember is that I liked it a lot. Any help in finding it would be appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 1 Apr 1985 03:24:43-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Help me Please! > I am trying to find a book that I read a few years ago. > Unfortunately I can't remember either the title or the author. > All I remember is that I liked it a lot. Any help in finding it > would be appreciated. I believe the book you are looking for is "The Planet-Strappers by Raymond Z. Gallun which was published by Pyramid books sometime around 1962 if I remember correctly. --- kaybee (Kerry Boyoboy, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyoboy ARPA: boyoboy%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 85 10:42:21 EST From: fudd@mit-bugs-bunny Subject: Dr. Who Film announced Warner Brothers announced today that they have bought the rights to do a Dr. Who film. In order to introduce the popular BBC character to the American film audience he will be paired with Warner Brothers most popular star. The title of the film will be "The TARDIS and the Hare." ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 85 12:55:17 EST From: kns%genesis@afterworld Subject: Star Trek IV In a recent interview with Harve Bennett on Entertainment Tonight, he commented about the script he wrote for Star Trek IV : The Trial of Captain Kirk. According to Bennett: "I think it will be an excellent film. The fans will be very surprised to see that Kirk will actually be courtmartialed for his actions in the previous movie. There will be no cheap escape for him as in the TV episode 'Courtmartial'. Unfortunately I can say no more at this time" ****** SPOILER ****** ET also announced that they heard from inside sources at the studio the following pieces of the plot: 1) Kirk will be sentenced to death and executed as a result of the trial. 2) Spock will assume command of the new Enterprise but will be caught once again in a radiation high environment. This time he will not die but will be put in a wheelchair like his former commander, Captain Pike. Sarek will state with perfect logic that while the ancient Vulcans had devised a method for bringing people back to life they have no way of curing severe radiation burn. 3) Doctor Chapel will dedicate her life to finding a cure for Spock. 4) Dr. McCoy will be killed in a freak transporter accident and his atoms will be scattered throughout space. 5) Scotty will be so distraught over McCoys death that he goes on a drinking spree and dies of heart failure. 6) Lieutenant Uhura will marry Mr. Sulu (it will be revealed that they have been seeing each other secretely over the years. and finally: 7) Chekov will be assigned as an interpreter to the Melkots. If these details are true it will probably mean the end of the Star Trek movies and TV show although the characters may live on in books. I for one will be glad to see the end of Kirk and Spock. K. Singh kns%genesis@afterworld ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 85 14:54:34 EST From: ahutb!leper@topaz (leper) Subject: Review of new movie "The Herpes Menace" is the latest project by Paul Bartel, the very funny guy who made "Eating Raoul" such a scream riot. This time around Bartel exercises total control of the project: he writes, directs, produces, stars, and edits this zany science fiction spoof. Rounding out the cast is Malcom Mcdowell as the clubfooted Swedish scientist, Mary Steenburgen as the nymphomaniac who eats fish in bed, and Rip Torn as the health inspector who sells mechanical pencils to diabetic prostitutes. The rather obvious plot revolves around Trevor Menlabia (McDowell), a man who, as a child, was tortured by his deranged parents; his mother was particularly fond of piercing his nipples with an old pair of black spiked heels! Menlabia is seen as the founder of the ominous "Grey Matter Institute," an organization involved in shady biological research. In a dream sequence reminescent of those seen in "Eraserhead," Menlabia asks a punk rocker if she will marry him and explain American foreign policy. She agree's, but as the eerie music swells, a large polyp emerges from her Jordache jeans, singing Hungarian love songs and registering itself as a democrat. Menlabia goes crazy, and in a rage orders chicken McNuggies from a fast food restaraunt. When next we see him awake and in the lab, he is concocting a radioactive suppository which will mutate the standard Herpes virus. Before you can say `huh?' the small town of Smear (New Jersey!) is crawling with ravenous Herpes who look like a cross between a young Annette Funicello and a bowl of lime Jello. Rick Action (Torn) is sent from California to investigate the odd happenings, which include mutilations, pet munching, and cross cultural dating. Soon thereafter he meets up with Alicia Rubble (Steenburgen), a woman who is a cashier at a very small pharmacy. The two of them form a somewhat `quirky' relationship while discussing favorite TV commercials and then things get REALLY strange! This film has to be seen to be believed; its daring, its arty, its hilarious. The acting is right on target. The ONLY complaint that I have is the length. At just under three hours(!!!) there should obviously be some major editing to get it down to size. This is the fault of Mr. Bartel, who is apparently new to this sort of thing. Go see it when it hits general distribution, it's terrific! Dark Leper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leper ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 85 12:18:04 EST From: pita@falafel Subject: Rumor from England Colin Baker, the actor currently appearing as Dr. Who has been fired for an undisclosed reason. They have hired actress Jane Seymour to play the part of the Dr. when the Dr. returns to the BBC after a 9 month hiatus. Says John Nathan Turner: "After more than 20 years on the air we felt it was time for a few changes. The audience is mostly white males between the ages of 25 and 40 and we thought that we would give them some of what they are really looking for. Looking at the flood of letters which arrived here demanding to see more of Peri (or less) in swimsuits we felt that Ms. Seymour was an obvious choice for the role of the doctor. The chamelion circuit will once more break down leaving the TARDIS shaped suspiciously like a transparent shower stall. We hope this move will also boost the failing popularity of the show in America." Mr. Turner refused to comment any further on the events leading up to these major changes in the show. This will be however be the first time in the history of the Time Lords that a regeneration will involve a sex change. Also announced was a proposed change of times for the show to a late night time period. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Apr 85 14:25:54 EST From: ccvaxine!dingbat@topaz Subject: 60's Nostalgia On the subject of nostalgic shows, I seem to remember this show from I think the late 60's that takes place on board this space ship. If I remember correctly there were seven or eight main characters including the captain and a doctor and every week they would encounter this different alien race or solve this strange scientific puzzle. The captain of the ship would always go charging into trouble and getting bailed out by someone else, usually his science officer who was an alien or some kind of robot. Oh, and I think he had pointy ears or something strange like that. The show really wasn't that good and always had some phony way out of the problem. I only watched it cause there was nothing else on at the time. I don't really remember too much about it. Anyone else remember this show? dingbat i8ahp6700!ineeda!ccvaxine!dingbat ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 85 12:37:03 EST From: dun@utah-cs (Dun Seedy) Subject: SF Book Club With all of the recent discussion on the SF Book of the Month Club I thought you might want to hear about the ad I just saw in a recent copy of "Amusing": "Announcing the newest addition to the ranks of book of the month clubs, the all new "Worst Paperback SF Book of the Month". When you subscribe you will receive each month a listing of the month's selections which will include the worst books published in Science Fiction. All you need do is throw away the inclosed postcard and the books will be forwarded to you automatically. If you don't wish the main selection or any of the alternates just write on the back of the postcard "You've got to be kidding, right?" and drop it in the mail slot. All books will be sent to you under 4th class mail and should arrive in a few short years. Current main selection include such classics as "The Vulcan Academy Murders" by Kagan, "Quag Starbrite" by Berry, "The Life, Times, Troubles and Tribulations of the Lensmen" by Kyle, "The World According to Warbucks" by Bruce Smith and many more!! And how much would you expect to pay for books of this quality in book stores? $3.95? $5.95? $9.95?? Well each book is sent to you for 90% off of the publisher's price!! This means that most of these books can be yours for less than a dollar!! Enroll now in this brand new club." Dun Seedy University of Utah CS Dept dun@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 34C-26-32 decvax!utah-cs!dun ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Apr 85 1023-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #110 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 110 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Aprilogies, Books - Spinrad & Miss Manners (2 msgs) & Reviews, Films - Brainstorm (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Mar 85 11:16:37 EST From: Saul Subject: Aprilogies For those of you who didn't notice, issue #109 of SF-LOVERS was the first (and possibly last) April Fools Issue. I would like to take a moment to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the contents or therein. Send your tax deductable comments and complaints to sf-lovers-request@rutgers. I would also like to thank the people here at Rutgers who helped me write material for the issue. They have begged to remain anonymous but since I don't want ALL the blame they were: Charles Hedrick, Steve Sherman and Fred Kiesche. And now...guys put down that ax please. Guys?! GUYS!!! ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: New edition of RIDING THE TORCH Date: 27 Mar 85 17:49:14 GMT RIDING THE TORCH by Norman Spinrad Bluejay, 1985, $6.95. A book review by Mark R. Leeper Hoy Cow! I just got my hands on a new Bluejay book. The book is Norman Spinrad's RIDING THE TORCH. It goes for $6.95. The story is 144 pages long, padded out with MUCHO blank pages and internal illustrations. There probably are no more than 100 pages of story. With all these vacation pages, you'd think the work pages are pretty full of text, huh? No way, Jose. Admittedly this is a trade paperback so the pages are bigger, but there is a one inch margin at the bottom of a page, another one up the sides, three quarters of an inch at the top. If Fermat had had margins like that mathematicians everywhere would be working on the Goldbach conjecture! Ah, but the text itself. With all that margin, they must have fine print, right? Nope. It's all set in Flight-to-the-Mushroom-Planet pica. Even with inflated movie ticket prices, it is now much cheaper to see ten minutes of film than to read ten minutes of book. Now admittedly there is an afterword by one Jim Frenkel, who just happens to be the publisher, and another afterword by Dr. Robert Forward but even so, that's not what you buy the book for. Tom Kidd's internal art is not his best work and at times is a long way from his best work. It isn't helped by the fact that often the illustrations are on inappropriate pages. As an illustration for the story his cover is much better, but then, that may be why it's on the cover, or being on the cover may be why it's good. Now I may not be the world's best person to review the story itself. Spinrad is heavily into writing style, and frankly, I prefer ideas. I'd rather read a story by Forward with an afterword by Spinrad than the other way around. Ah, but 'twas not to be. Spinrad sets his story on a fleet of generation ships, but he does not seem to show any great understanding of what life might be like on a generation ship--again, he is a man more of style than of ideas. The main character is sort of an interior decorator and artist and as such may well be one of the least interesting people in the fleet. After the story Forward tells the reader about Bussard engines and the Fermi Paradox. Spinrad might understand both concepts, but in the story they seem to be used without being really understood. Forward's afterword (!) might fit as well after TAU ZERO. There are probably more science fictional ideas in Forward's short afterword than in Spinrad's story. Spinrad's tale concludes with a sort of story within a story within a story of a discussion between God and the Devil discussing man. It's the best part of the novella, but it mostly serves to remind us how much better George Bernard Shaw was at this sort of thing. RIDING THE TORCH is probably NOT the best way a science fiction fan can spend $6.95. ------------------------------ From: digi-g!brian@topaz.arpa (Brian Westley) Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot... Date: 26 Mar 85 21:20:22 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: > For those who are interested, [my ten best english writers list > includes] ..., Judith Martin (aka Miss Manners),... C'mon, Steve! Miss Manners?! With her cloying "Gentle Reader" and referring to herself in the third person ("Miss Manners hates it when people throw up at cocktail parties and rush off to the hospital without even saying 'Excuse me, I must go; I've regurgitated my liver'"). Her writing style makes me want to squeeze her head in a pneumatic press until she screams "STOP! STOP! STOP!" just so I can admonish her with a "SAY PLEEEEEASE!!" My ten best list of Arabic digits (in no particular order): 9472018653 Merlyn Leroy ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot... Date: 27 Mar 85 16:14:24 GMT > C'mon, Steve! Miss Manners?! With her cloying "Gentle Reader" > and referring to herself in the third person ("Miss Manners hates > it when people throw up at cocktail parties and rush off to the > hospital without even saying 'Excuse me, I must go; I've > regurgitated my liver'"). Her writing style makes me want to > squeeze her head in a pneumatic press until she screams "STOP! > STOP! STOP!" just so I can admonish her with a "SAY PLEEEEEASE!!" There, there. Put your head on Mister Writer's shoulder and he'll hold you until you're done. There. Feel better? Now let Mister Writer explain why he so adores dear Miss Manners. Mister Writer appreciates the time you are taking to respond to this rather delicate issue, but wonders if you have, in fact, taken the time to read carefully. Mister Writer finds Miss Manners style a pure delight, and is saddened that there aren't more readers who appreciate complete mastery of the language blended with a gently ironic touch of nineteenth century Romanticism. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 85 21:31:44 MST From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Reviews: Aldiss, Russ, Swanwick, Davidson, misc. Some miscellaneous reviews of books I've seen recently which other readers might be curious about... HELLICONIA SUMMER. Brian Aldiss. Berkley, c1983. This is the middle volume of the Helliconia trilogy; the first volume is HELLICONIA SPRING and the last volume, now out in hardcover, is HELLICONIA WINTER. The principle conceit of the books is that there is a planet named Helliconia which is inhabited by two intelligent species, the warmth-loving humans and the cold-loving phagors, and this planet circles a relatively dim star that in turn makes a very eccentric orbit about a very bright star, once every 2600 Earth years. In that span of time history is recapitulated, from ice age hunting societies to high civilization. In SUMMER Helliconia and its primary are approaching periastron with the bright star, and a Renaissance-like culture is arising in the principal nations of the main equatorial continent. The plot follows the tragedy of King JandolAnganol's reign in Borlien, with many discursive excursions covering technology, politics and history, but gradually leading up to a thoroughly melodramatic finale. The book has some nice moments -- Aldiss is best when he finds humor in a situation, and the climax is nicely wrought -- but the pace is very leisurely, almost to the point of tedium. I was left with the familiar feeling that I ought to have liked the novel better... EXTRA(ORDINARY) PEOPLE. Joanna Russ. St. Martin's, c1984. This is a collection containing one novella and four stories; the novella is 'Souls', which won a Hugo in 1983. 'Souls' is an excellent story set in Germany during the Dark Ages -- it's a classic ugly duckling tale with a small twist... 'The Mystery of the Young Gentleman' similarly chooses to examine human beings (?) with peculiar powers but is more playful in tone; it is likably rude as it destroys sexual stereotypes on a 19th-century ocean voyage. 'Bodies' is about the sexual escapades of two 20th-century people, a woman and a male homosexual, who are brought forward into a future utopia where sexual characteristics as well as sexual behavior have radically changed, to their bemusement. 'What Did You Do During the Revolution, Grandma?' is a comedy set around a set of parallel worlds like those in Vance's 'Rumfuddle', where a middle-aged woman is altered to resemble a black male god and is sent as a representative to a medieval culture on a parallel Earth. 'Everyday Depressions' is a series of funny letters to a friend describing the writing of the world's first (and perhaps only) lesbian Gothic romance. Although I did some head-scratching here and there, I liked the stories in general, and didn't feel intimidated by a subtle contempt for straights which appears in some gay writing. IN THE DRIFT. Michael Swanwick. Ace Specials, c1985. This is the latest of the new Ace Specials, which have been mostly excellent and have produced the first book-length works of such good new writers as Lucius Shepard, Kim Stanley Robinson and William Gibson. IN THE DRIFT is a collection of Michael Swanwick's Drift stories, set in a future where a meltdown at TMI has contaminated large areas of the continent and mostly destroyed civilization in the Northeast US. 'Mummer Kiss' takes place in Philadelphia, on the border of the Drift, where the Mummers have become the city government and a kiss from the King Clown on the day of the Mummers' Parade can mean death... 'Boneseeker' is the story of a girl with a mysterious talent who is drawn into the dirty politics of neighboring countries competing for the resources of the Drift. 'Marrow Death' (a Nebula Award nominee) tells how another such girl, escaping from the maelstrom of politics in totalitarian Boston, has a mystical encounter with the Reactor... The stories are generally very tightly constructed and tautly paced, and I have the feeling that Swanwick at his best is going to be the modern master of Alfred Bester's classic technique of plot compression. IN THE DRIFT, however, is not a novel, and while the individual stories are very good, I'm waiting to read what Swanwick can produce at a greater length and density of material. Miscellaneous Dept.: Mark Ziesing has been kind enough to dig up some old Avram Davidson books for me, and I've gradually been working through them over the last month or two, pacing myself so as not to glut... Some of the novels are pretty uninteresting, but a couple were surprises. CLASH OF STAR-KINGS has a rather purple title for a fantasy story about the return of the old gods of Mexico to a small town in the high mountains near the Federal District; it is a wonderful portrayal of Mexico and the Americans who live there, and the quasi-SF plot is very cleverly done. THE REDWARD EDWARD PAPERS is a short novel contained in the collection of the same name. The collection has a few notable and oft-collected stories such as 'Sacheverell' and 'Dagon' (a real favorite of mine), but the PAPERS are the real star of this book and I think they are the best Davidson I've have ever read, and that says a lot. Dare I quote? Of course: 'I understand that you're a professor of writing at an art college,' the young man said, causing to materialize before them two glasses whose provenance Edward was unable to determine upon immediate thought, but which he ascertained (by the simple method of sampling both, and would one man in one thousand have hit upon this simple method, which, amplifying the genius of simplicity, recalled Columbus' trick with the salt and the egg? No.) contained some ice and soda water with two balls of malt in them; 'and I would appreciate your kindness when you realize that I've just obtained a position as Area Representative of the Blessed Virgin of the Month Club --' Edward said, '-- Ah --' -- and the young man said, agitating Redward Edward's coatsleeve, said, with great haste and infinite reproach, 'Now don't misunderstand me, say, what do you take me for, don't I know that you are of an opposite persuasion --' 'I am?' Edward was surprised and intrigued at this way of putting his three-generational absence of any denominational affiliation whatsoever. 'You do? Would you happen to remember who it was that persuaded me?' &c., following Edward through a bizarre and hilarious series of alternate universes. I was reading this on the flight back from Dallas after the Usenix conference in January and I think I must have been an annoyance and a puzzlement to the people sitting around me, because I would irrepressibly burst out laughing from time to time... According to LOCUS Davidson is currently recovering from a series of small strokes at a Veterans' Home in Washington and 'welcomes' letters to the address 'PO Box 685, Retsil WA, 98378', letters which I ought to be writing instead of this... Any other Davidson fans out there? I finally got around to reading David Brin's SUNDIVER and STARTIDE RISING, and while I thought they were fun to read, I was expecting more... Or maybe I wanted less: less melodrama and fewer exclamation points, perhaps. The books felt like well-bred Piers Anthony novels. Oh well... Michael Bishop's new anthology LIGHT YEARS AND DARK, which samples the work of 43 New-Wave and post-New Wave writers, has some original material in it as well as some golden oldies (oldies? from the '60s?). Of the originals, I really liked 'The Map' by Gene Wolfe, a story set in the New Sun universe; 'Strangeness, Charm and Spin' by Kate Wilhelm, about a science teacher and improbability; 'When the Music's Over...' by Michael Swanwick, a rather blood-curdling explanation for the mysterious deaths of '60s rock stars; 'The (Tale) of the (Man) Who (Met) (God)' by Norman Spinrad, a little philosophical gem; 'The Nine Billion Names of God' by Carter Scholz (yes, that's the title), which is so funny I'm almost ready to forgive Scholz his awful first novel; 'The Cure' by Lisa Tuttle, in which the world is cured of human suffering, at a curious cost; and George Zebrowski's 'The Eichmann Variations' (a Nebula nominee), in which World War II's slightly different ending has a significant impact on compensation for the Holocaust... Rambling on too long, as usual, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: re: Loose Ends (BRAINSTORM) Date: 26 Mar 85 22:56:56 GMT tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: >The device in Brainstorm did have a number of interesting >possibilities. However, seeing the after-death experience is not >one of them, so the discussion as it stands is moot. There would >be no way for the device to pick up information once brain-death >occurred. In the movie, it just blithely continues to record the >experiences of her soul. No doubt this was made possible by new >astral plane technology they didn't bother to tell us about. >Right. Well, actually, all the technology has to do is record sensory impressions. It looked to me like what they are saying is that "you really do go to heaven, amen, huzzah" but that it's all just an hallucination caused by deteriorating brain function as the brain slowly dies. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 85 14:15:48 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: Brainstorm loose ends "I noticed that the final scene, with the angels and all that, occurred in Brace's (Christopher Walken's) mind after the tape ran out!" Easily explained by huge amounts of buffering in the portable unit. Remember that they were sending this signal over phone lines. One can imagine the rate of data transfer not matching the rate of playback. (Though if pressed, I would agree they would need all the bandwidth they could get.) - Mike ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 1 Apr 85 1045-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #111 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Apr 85 1045-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #111 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 111 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Brust (4 msgs) & Hogan (3 msgs), Films - "Sex Mission", Television - Dr. Who (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat 30 Mar 85 15:16:28-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Asimov's Physical Address Asimov is listed in the New York City phone book. I think he has an apartment on W. 65 st. or somesuch. -Laurence ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Steven Brust Date: 28 Mar 85 16:20:32 GMT > Now, Steven, when are we going to find out what happened at > Deathsgate Falls? > > Kent Beck > uucp: tektronix!tekchips!kentb > CSNet: kentb@tektronix Dunno. It will appear, if at all, in a book called EASTERNER that will be the "first" of the Vlad novels. Chances are that it will be written after some unknown (but probably weird) book that will be written after TECKLA, which I am at work on now. If TECKLA weren't going to damn slowly I'd have a better idea. Thanks for asking. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: mit-athena!micah@topaz.arpa (Micah P Doyle) Subject: Re: Steven Brust Date: 29 Mar 85 02:49:32 GMT >> From: hmiller@mit-speaker (Herbert A Miller) >> I have several friends who, along with myself, have read both >> "Jhereg" and "Yendi" and we all came away from these books dying >> for more! >> >> However, two questions come to mind, concerning these novels: >> >> 1) Why was "Jhereg" published first, followed by "Yendi"? >> The chronological order, should be: >> "Jhereg" prologue, "Yendi", "Jhereg" body. >> If the books are read in order of publication, then >> "Jhereg" gives away a lot of the action that should >> be a suprise in "Yendi". >> >> ... > From: tektronix!tekchips!kentb (Kent Beck) > >Don't believe it for a minute. These novels were written to be >read backwards...There is far more information given away reading >"Yendi" first than the other way around. One of the beauties of >these books is that "Jhereg" sets up several puzzles that are >solved in "Yendi," and they are intended to be read that way... I'm have to agree with Herbert Miller. I read the books in chronological order and am very glad I did. Maybe there are some surprises given away by reading them in the "wrong" order, but I was much more interested in what happened to the characters than solutions to puzzles. I think I would have liked "Yendi" much less if I knew beforehand which characters survived, who marries who, etc.; that would have spoiled most of the suspense in the book. I had never heard of these books until about a month ago when I just happened to be around our local science-fiction library when someone was raving about them. Few people I've mentioned them to have heard about them either. Steven Brust has written some of the best books I've read in a long time, and I just don't understand how such excellent books can remain so obscure. Stephen Brust also has a new book coming out in May. I don't know whether or not it's a sequal to "Jhereg" and "Yendi", but since Mr. Brust reads this newsgroup, perhaps he can tell us a little about the book himself (pretty please?). Micah Doyle micah@mit-athena.ARPA decvax!mit-athena!micah ------------------------------ Date: Sun 31 Mar 85 23:08:46-EST From: last Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #108 > Anyway, the order of > books to date (and future) is: > JHEREG > TO REIGN IN HELL > YENDI > BROKEDOWN PALACE (Jan. '86) > TECKLA (In progress). I haven't seen _To_Reign_In_Hell_ anywhere. Who's the publisher? How much is it? ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Brust's plan for Negative REcommendations Date: 30 Mar 85 14:12:43 GMT One James Branch Cabell book I own includes at the back reviews of all his other books -- all negative, many of them explaining in particular what pornographic trash JURGEN is. All except for one book, for which the reviewers joined in praising the illustrations. (This page of the review bears at the bottom a note by the publishers saying that this book is no longer published with the illustratins.) Perhaps publishers had more of a sense of humor in those days. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: ukma!red@topaz.arpa (Red Varth) Subject: Good trilogy Date: 29 Mar 85 19:28:17 GMT Allow me to recommend "Inheirit the Stars", "The Gentle Giants of Ganymede", and "Giants' Star" by James P. Hogan. I don't want to spoil the plot, for anyone, so I won't say too much. "Inheirit the Stars" is about what happens when an exploration team discovers a man on the moon in about 2000 A.D. Man -- genus Homo, species sapiens. The only problem with this is that he died ca. 50K years ago. This one is a lot of science, not so much fiction. But it's a real good yarn. I can't say anything about the 2nd and 3rd book without spoiling the first, so I'll stop. Any other opinions out there? Red ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!lindley@topaz.arpa (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: Good trilogy Date: 31 Mar 85 06:11:52 GMT > From: red@ukma.UUCP (Red Varth) > Allow me to recommend "Inheirit the Stars", "The Gentle Giants of > Ganymede", and "Giants' Star" by James P. Hogan. . . . Any other > opinions out there? Yes, these are a favorite of mine too. I especialy liked the interplay between the head researcher and the biologist (names forgotten). Also the "trick tactics" near the end of "Giant's Star." John L. Templer University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Good trilogy (Inherit the Stars/G.Giants of G./G's Star) Date: 31 Mar 85 07:22:11 GMT They were (like all of Hogan's work) a lot of fun, but I think he went a bit overboard after the first novel. I don't want to say anything spoilerish so I'd better stop here ... In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: Filmex: "Sex Mission" Date: 27 Mar 85 07:37:41 GMT An unlikely Polish film with the unlikely title of "Sex Mission" is, so far as I am concerned, the hit of Filmex. It's definitely the best film I've seen in the festival so far, and I can but hope it receives wide US release. "Sex Mission" is funny and provocative, managing the rare task of being intellectually interesting and viscerally enjoyable. The story starts out ten years in the future. Two Polish men are about to be put into hibernation for three years in the first human test of a new suspended animation process. When they awake, though, things aren't at all as they expected. Fifty years have passed, there has been an atomic war, and, due to a fearsome new weapon, all men have been destroyed. But not all women. A whole society of them exists, and they are the ones who wake our heroes. In the new society, which reproduces by a form of parthenogenesis, men are remembered as fearsome oppressors who, armed with such dreadful devices of torture as straight razors and corkscrews, terrorized women. Not to such an extent that famous women like Einstein were unable to make their discoveries, however. The relatively benign Archaeology section which discovered the frozen men favors "naturalization". (Think about it.) The fanatic and dictatorial Genetics section wants to perform certain unspecified but doubtlessly nasty experiments, after which the men will be disposed of. Any resemblances to a couple of Eastern European countries is strictly coincidental, of course, as director Juliusz Machulski would be the first to insist. None the less, it is profitable to reflect that "Sex Mission" is a Polish film which could never have been made in, say, the USSR. Let's get one thing straight, though: there is absolutely nothing heavy handed about "Sex Mission". If you don't want to think of it as satire, fine, it's a great science fiction slapstick comedy. Machulski, a first time director and the youngest Polish director, has wonderful comedic timing and is able to make old bits like the foot-in-the-bucket schtick come to new life. The script, even in translation, is hilarious. "Sex Mission" is a real audience pleaser. Machulski is aided and abetted by an excellent cast, led by Olgierd Lukaszewicz and Jerzy Stuhr as the mismatched pair of men in a strange new world that has such people in it, and Bozena Stryjkowna as the scientist from Archaeology who begins to have doubts about her society. All three are fine comedians and excellent actors. Some feminists may find "Sex Mission" rather offensive, suggesting as it does that a society composed completely of women could possibly be intolerant or oppressive. They will also object, with some truth, that Machulski indulges rather heavily in female nudity. (I must confess, sexist pig that I am, that the latter didn't bother *me* a bit.) Tough luck. Probably the same group of "feminists" are working for the passage of the current anti-pornography laws, and have none of my sympathy. True feminists will recognize that "Sex Mission" isn't about feminism, anyway, but about totalitarianism. In fact, "Sex Mission" would make an excellent double feature with "1984" (preferably as the second feature, to cheer the audience up). The fact that such a savagely funny satire could be made with state money in a Communist country under martial law surprised me more than a little, and must surely be a good sign of some sort. At the moment, "Sex Mission's" American release is rather uncertain, lying in the hands of the Polish government and US film distributors, an unsavory match indeed. Should an opportunity arise to see it, then, I strongly advise that you do not miss "Sex Mission". Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Dr. Who Date: 28 Mar 85 05:36:11 GMT > ... and the other the very good part of Tristan Farnon in the TV > series All Creatures Great and Small, adapted from James Herriot's > semi-autobiographical books about his life as a veterinarian in > Yorkshire during the 30's. Not science-fiction at all, but > wonderful stories nevertheless. Davison is very believable and > sympathetic as Tristan. Unfortunately I've had no chance to see > him as the Doctor, because in our area (Orange County, south of > Los Angeles), they are only showing the Tom Baker episodes: > Logopolis, which ended with Baker regenerating into Davison, was > followed immediately by Robot, which starts with Jon Pertwee > regenerating into Baker. So I am still waiting for Davison. I find Davison as the Doctor quite charming, as are the rest of the Doctors. One point that you might find interesting: I heard John Nathan-Turner (the current Dr. Who producer) say that he wanted a younger Doctor to replace Baker. He was looking around for another, when he saw Davison on "All Creatures..." he called him up the next day, and the search was over.... > By the way, anybody know of any relation between Tom Baker and > Colin Baker? > On the same program where I saw J N-T say the above, I also heard him say: "Nope, no connection at all...." --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ Date: Sun 31 Mar 85 22:33:12-EST From: Larry Seiler Subject: The official BBC position on Doctor Who [Last week, I received the following form letter in reply to my message to the head of BBC regarding potential cancellation of Doctor Who.] Dear Mr. Seiler, Thank you for your recent letter, which I have been asked to acknowledge. We are sorry that you should be so concerned about the decision to 'rest' "Doctor Who". In broadcasting, no programme can, of course, be regarded as an entirely fixed institution, but time for reflection on a programme's future is seldom time wasted. What will, in fact, happen, is that in 1986 "Doctor Who" will be on the air, as it has been for each of the past twenty-two years. It will, however, return to what was until recently its traditional placing in the Autum, and each episode will be produced at the traditional twenty-five minute duration. The producer and his team welcome the return to the old form, which will enable them to concentrate on the essential themes which have proved so popular over the years. Shorter programmes will mean that it will be possible to present a longer series, extending over a greater number of weeks. Thank you for writing your letter. We appreciate your interest in writing, and shall bear all your comments in mind. Yours sincerely, Jane Barrow (Miss) Programme Correspodence Section ------------------------------ Date: Sun 31 Mar 85 23:00:02-EST From: Larry Seiler Subject: Doctor Who Companions I'd like to add a new category: most butchered by writers and directors. That companion is obviously Adric. He started out great! The episode where they met Nyssa is an example of Adric at his best (I particulary liked the scene where he borrows Nyssa's brooch to pick a lock - couldn't tell whether he gave it back). But unfortunately, as Matthew Waterhouse explained at a con, none of the writers or directors on Doctor Who had children older than about 5 years, and so none of them knew what an intelligent 15 year old should act like. Especially with the regeneration to Peter Davison, Adric became a real dork - at one point complaining to Nyssa "You know that I'm not any good with my hands!". In age, Adric suddenly regressed to 12 or less, in temperment he suddenly became sulky and unreliable, and in mental acuity he suddenly became completely credulous. ("Be more innocent!" the director kept telling him.) After two years as a companion, Matthew Waterhous decided that it was time to move on (he is now doing a lot of theater - excuse me, theatre - work), so they gave him a good exit. In that last episode, especially at the end, we finally see a little of the original Adric. Leela is probably my favorite companion so far, although the writers made her gloat first and strike later on a number of occasions - a mistake the REAL Leela would never make. And other such idiocies. But by and large, her character is nicely consistent as a hunter (or "huntress", if you prefer), who is uneducated but quite intelligent (I didn't realize the latter for some time). For the category of "most improved on repeated viewings", I nominate Harry. Good old blithering idiot Harry (I'm talking only about the Tom Baker episodes), who I finally realized is not really a blithering idiot, he is just totally out of his depth. The British are good at spoofing themselves. Finally, in SF-Lovers #101, Deryk asks "Who is number 1?" I don't think so - sounds more like the Master's style. Larry Seiler ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Apr 85 1113-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #112 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 2 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 112 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Disch & Heinlein & King & Best Books (3 msgs) & Memory Recording Stories (2 msgs), Films - Sex Mission & Silent Running, Television - The Last Episode of V ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 11:52 EST From: " Roz " Subject: Re: Asimov Question in SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #107 Gaylene--According to the editorials in his (Asimov's) SF magazine, he's still writing and alive (of course mag articles are done months ahead of pub dates!), in fact, I know he did at least one editorial on the subject of his 'illness'. I forget the title of the magazine since I am a subscriber--I really read what's between the covers and look at the picture(s) on the cover rather than read the cover! Normally, you can write author's care of their publishers--both book and magazine pubs. Sorry I don't have better info. --Roz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Mar 85 21:28:32 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Disch, Snyder I am halfway through Disch's "The Genocides", and it is without doubt the most depressing sf-book I've ever read. It seems very well written though - As well done as Guy Snyder's "Testament XXI - The Book of the Twice Damned" or "The Lord's Pink Ocean" (Walker?), or even "A Canticle for Leibowitz" (Miller?), somewhat less downbeat collapse novels. All are excellent books addressing the issues more superficial works like "Day of the Triffids" (Wyndham?), or "Lucifer's Hammer" (Niven & Pournelle) give short shift. I am not sure where "Deus Irae" (Dick & Zelazny) fits in - perhaps in counterpoint, never serious, never quite real. Of all these Testament is my favorite. Who is Guy Snyder anyway? Steve ------------------------------ From: hou2b!reh1366@topaz.arpa (R.HOWARD) Subject: Re: The Number of the Beast Date: 29 Mar 85 05:01:55 GMT Having read most of the books discussed in TNoTB, I found it rather interesting. One thing I didn't get, though, was the true nature of "mellrooney" Tom Easton of Analog claimed that it was an anagram, but it must be from a work with which I am unfamiliar. Just who was the Beast? Thanks Rich Howard Bell Labs Holmdel, NJ hou2b!reh1366 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 85 18:52:08 pst From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley Subject: Eyes of the Dragon (short review) Somebody asked for a review of Eyes of the Dragon. As I am one of the select many (~1500 people probably own the book right now) who has read the thing, I thought I'd give it all a spin. Eyes of the Dragon is Stephen Kings first "childrens" book. It is about a young prince falsely convicted of murdering his father, a very nasty wizard who set him up (his name is Flagg, but he bears little resemblance to the character in the Stand), and various and sundry players. As a straight novel, it suffers from being written as a childrens book. There are a number of simplistic explanations, and "wide eyed" descriptions, which slow down the books pace for adult readers. Also as with most childrens books, the people are mostly either good or evil with very few shades of grey. As a childrens book, it suffers from some adult concepts that would either confuse, or slow down the story. The king complains at one point of his impotence and how it effects his life and relations with his wife, and how he doesn't really like women. There are a couple of these concepts floating about which make this less than wonderful as a childrens book. As far as the story goes, while it is well written (as is most if not all of King's work) it is no great shakes. It is a fairly standard adventure yarn with most people living happily ever after, and there aren't any real surprises. I would generally reate the book at about a "B-" grade, a decent read, but no great shakes. I'm not at all sure 'tho that I would give it to any of my kids to read (even if I had any). Joe Kalash unisoft!kalash@berkeley ucbvax!unisoft!kalash ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Date: 26 Mar 85 16:33:51 GMT >>Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best >>SF Book of all time . > >>>No. The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger >>>Zelazny. It is also the best English Language book written in >>>the twentieth century. > >>>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very >>>>probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". > >Please, people, you're just begging for flames with postings like >this. Each of us has books/films/songs that he or she is >particularly fond of, but personal preference may have little to do >with how well a particular work is received by other >readers/viewers/listeners. You can save yourself trouble by >qualifying your claims with a simple "in my opinion" or "the best >I've ever." Enough said. There are several reasons for making a statement such as the above. First and foremost, in my case, I felt like it. I knew quite well what I was getting into. Another reason is that such comments are quite good methods of starting the sort of discussion I've been having with stever and some others. I have been enjoying it a great deal. Yet again, it ought to be clear that the fewer qualifiers used, the stronger the statement is. Have read Strunk and White's THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE? It is the best book on English usage...never mind. Another reason is that some of us like to "peg" ourselves. As soon as I made that statement, some alert people learned a great deal about me. More didn't, and still more couldn't care less, but for those few it was a service. "Oh," the said to themselves. "He's one of THOSE." Another possible reason is as a "Turkey Detector." That is, anyone who doesn't see the implied In My Opinion in those statements, and consequently Flames, is letting us know something about him. Which of these applied to which comments I don't know. There are certainly some other reasons I missed, too, but I hope this gives a general idea. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot... Date: 26 Mar 85 17:06:05 GMT > I agree with your opinion with those people I've read (Zelazny, > Yolan & Wolfe). I'm running right out to look at all those > others! But I must protest a serious omission: John Crowley. He > has done some great stuff, "Little, Big" in particular. Orson > Scott Card is also at least an honorable mention. Good stuff! I agree completely that Card gets an honorable mention. Crowley was a deliberate omission--but a difficult one. "Little, Big" is an outstanding book. If only Crowley were the littlest bit more accessible OR more consistent. That is the same reason I didn't (quite) put Delany on the list. Both of these writers are outstanding, however. ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Date: 26 Mar 85 15:53:52 GMT > ... SONGMASTER, in my humble opinion, falls apart at the end, > although it is tremendous up until then. Let's pick some nits. I have to disagree with you here. All books must end sometime (though I'm beginning to believe XANTH will go on forever) and how the book ends quite diverse and varies a good deal. I found the end of SONGMASTER quite refreshing. Its not the "and everyone lived happily ever after", nor is it "and everyone died and all was depressing and dark" nor "and Joe went home to grow wheat, Same went in search of the mysteries of the Universe, me ..." ala lol instead SONGMASTER had a delicately bittersweet ending and which though sad, didn't leave me sad. A rather insightfull ending in which a man with a rather unhappy life left his mark for posterity not linked to his name but rather to the most important facet of his life, his song. The reason I have a hard time coming up with a "best" book is that all these books have things about them unusual and outstanding. > RIDDLE OF > STARS is very good, but not up their with the others. What I liked about RIDDLE OF STARS was not so much the writing which at times was confusing and obtuse but, the very deep sense of a common but very good man caught in the tempest and his hardening and alteration. I was caught up by the majestic tone and feeling of his ascension to the high one. > Neither > Bradley or Eddings are quite good enough word-smiths. > Bradley tends more toward the world of the mind, the internal conflict. Perhaps she is not in the same class but some of her later books are awfully good. Eddings is definitely not a heavy read, one simply doesn't get a mystery or awe from any of his characters. The reason I believe this to be true is that he shows all his characters even the awesome ones as humans with their foibles intact. Elf equivalents are conspicuously absent (beings with awesome powers that can do no wrong which many writers tend to use as a crutch). His characters are so accessible as to make it difficult to see them as anything out of the ordinary but, I found this unusual and actually quite pleasant. Wonderfully funny, especially in his use of anachronistic behavior by the characters. Certainly vastly different from Lord of Light and lacking much of its inner meaning, but then I'm not so sure I'm that fascinated by inner meaning anyway. I evaluate books by a more ad hoc scale. a) The book must grip and not let go. b) I don't care if the book was wonderful for its time, it must be wonderful for MY time, unreadable old-style english need not apply. I think a book should be evaluated without regard for the place and position of the author and any acclaim the book may have received. c) Symbolism stinks, virtually always societal, culture, and time oriented, misplace any of these and you have an unreadable piece of trash. No thanks. d) I want the book to move me, how or where it moves me will largely affect my feelings for the book. e) The characters should feel real and I should care about them (not always a requirement but it certainly helps). f) I don't go through a book with a note pad finding inner meaning. If it's there it often adds depth to the book but in any case will not vastly affect my personal opinion on how the book rates. Enough. David Albrecht ------------------------------ From: timeinc!dwight@topaz.arpa (Dwight Ernest) Subject: Re: Memory recording stories Date: 28 Mar 85 14:46:09 GMT Yes, there are dozens more stories on this topic of memory recording, including Silverberg "Majipoor Chronicles." Highly recommended. ------------------------------ From: ihuxi!okie@topaz.arpa (cobb) Subject: Another memory-recording story Date: 29 Mar 85 21:25:26 GMT > From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) > There has been some discussion (started by "Brainstorm", a movie > which I must confess I haven't seen) about recording/transmission > of human thoughts, and about stories concerning the same... I recall one housed in the collection "The Hugo Winners, Volume 3," whose title escapes me but which was written by James Tiptree, Jr. It involves the use of one person's body/mind to animate another body. The story takes place far enough in the future for near-instantaneous communication to take place on a global scale. However, advertising is outlawed. Major conglomerates get around this by finding people to use as animators -- ugly, down-and-out people like the protagonist in the story. They promise them a new life by training them to animate 'celebrities' which are given world-wide media exposure and advertise without actually advertising. In the case of our animator, though, she forgets who she is and becomes her 'puppet.' Interesting and a bit chilling. (I'll go home tonight and look up the title. Check the net Monday for further details!) B.K. Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Filmex: "Sex Mission" Date: 27 Mar 85 20:38:53 GMT On Peter Reiher's recommendation I went to see "Sex Mission", and although I enjoyed the film, I have a few comments to throw in. First, I thought the satire was incompletely done. The world portrayed in the film mirrored current day totalitarianism, obviously, but failed to develop the concept. It seems to me that a film on a social problem needs 3 facets: 1) A development of why the situation is a problem 2) A suggested solution 3) The results of the solution "Sex Mission" develops the first idea, hints at the second, and doesn't even consider the third. Furthermore, I don't think that the parallel they develop has any real bearing on modern day totalitarianism. Some people are satisfied with a satire that only addresses the first issue above, and I don't mean to contradict your viewpoint. I'm only pointing out what seemed to me an incompleteness in the film. Second, I found myself wondering throughout the film of the ramifications of an all-female society. This film only touches the surface of this idea, an I found myself wanting a fuller exposition. I realize that the intent of this film wasn't to explore this concept, but I found this more interesting than the ideas (and actions) they were portraying. Finally, I wanted to note that the foreigness of the picture is really brought home in the final shot - something you definitely wouldn't see in an American film. Always like to end with a tease... -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ From: qumix!stoner@topaz.arpa (David Stone) Subject: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?") Date: 21 Mar 85 03:02:56 GMT I really have too many 'BEST' movie's to pick just one though I am rather surprised to see no mention of the movie "Silent Running" (or was it "Running Silent"?) with Bruce Dern and his three robots Huey,Duey,and Luey.If anyone remembers this was a film about Spaceships that had been sent into space with a sampling of earths plant life to preserve it from the destruction of a war then being waged on earth. The the order came thru that the U.S could no longer support the maintenance of the plants and they would have to be destroyed and ...... (No Spoiler).....If you havn't seen the movie I would recomend it. Any comments? And on worst movies if you thought Battle Beyond the Planets was bad then a movie called Space Raiders would have to be considered worse because a lot of this movie was made up of scenes from BBTP. stoner@qumix David A. Stone Qume Corp. San Jose,Calif ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 85 14:23 EST From: Mark F. Rand Subject: V (last episode??) Did anyone else out there watch the last episode of V??? It looks like the people at "V" might be planning to try V (similar story different name).. They ended the show on a BIG cliff hanger.. Elizabeth is going somewhere with the leader(to his apartment??) and Diana has planted a bomb on the leader's craft(how!!?? He was never shown leaving the ship and looked like only one entry hatch!), and Elizabeth's boyfriend has also apparently (somehow!!!???!!!) stowed away on the Leader's ship... There is now the chance of peace(possibly cooexistence??)... Now here is the BIG question.... What will the title of the next V be?? "After the Final Invasion"??? Do Donovon and Diana get married and have little Starchildren that leave their toys "floating" around the house?? And what does the Leader look like??? Is he an etheral being or does he just carry around a strong green flashlight??? See ya Mark Rand P.S. Why aren't there more Sci-Fi shows on T.V. like Dr. Who??!!! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Apr 85 0926-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #113 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 3 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 113 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Hodgsell & Shetterly & Sladek (2 msgs) & Lesbian Gothic Romance & Memory Recording Stories & Best Novel (2 msgs), Films - Sex Mission & Trumbull & Silent Running (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 1985 00:48:04-PST From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks dtn 223-9408) Subject: Re: Number of the Beast Gaylene asks about Assimov's heart attack. I know he suffered one in the late 70's, but survived to speak about it at a lecture in '79. You may be hearing about that one, (which was nearly fatal), or a more recent event which I haven't heard about. In any event, best wishes to Dr. Asimov, and may he forgive me for mispelling his name six lines ago. maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 09:23:43 pst From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley Subject: New P.C. Hodgsell book > I desperately liked _God_Stalk_ and hope that a sequel will come > out. You will be happy to know that a sequel has just been sold to Atheneum, but don't expect it until the end of the year, or next year (in hardcover, the paperback will take at least 6 more months). Joe Kalash unisoft!kalash@berkeley ucbvax!unisoft!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 11:35 PST From: Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Recommendations, and Cats Have No Lord To: hyper!brust@TOPAZ.ARPA I bought and read Cats Have No Lord this weekend. It really was enjoyable, and I agree with your blurb on the cover. I didn't really care much for either Moorcock's GLORIANA or Goldman's THE PRINCESS BRIDE (I felt as if I were missing something because I couldn't hear well in the latter, and couldn't see why the story was worth listening to, in the former) and the elements in CHNL which could be said to have come from those books seemed to have improved a bit on the original. I'm looking forward to a sequel, or other works by Will Shetterly. I think the review blurbs on the PlainWrap Novels were awfully similar to the tone of your suggested inside-cover quotes from famous authors. The one novel in that series? I read was sf, and I believe one of the blurbs said "Adequate". Yup, that's about what it was, all right. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ From: rochester!rick@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Memory recording stories (actually, John Sladek) Date: 28 Mar 85 19:33:13 GMT >From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) >Does anyone know if it's still around, or if Sladek wrote anything >else besides this and /The Best of John Sladek/ ??] John Sladek also wrote "The Reproductive System" (originally "Mechasm"). An improbable and wildly bizarre novel about machine intelligence (in the form of little self-reproducing boxes) gone wild. Very heavy on satire. The sequence about the little boxes gutting Las Vegas and the discussion of possible military retaliation is particularly biting. I would recommend it highly if it weren't out of print. The author blurb in the '74 edition of "The Reproductive System" states: "John T. Sladek was born in Iowa in 1937. He studied mechanical engineering, then English literature and composition at the University of Minnesota; he says he "writes passable technical manuals" and that his first published work was "The Baker Forklift Truck". "Sladek has contributed to Playboy, Ambit, Fantasy and Science Fiction, Amazing Stories, Galaxy and New Worlds, and he is the Editor of Ronald Reagan, The Magazine of Poetry. "The Reproductive System" is his first novel." Does anyone know where I can get a copy of "The Baker Forklift Does Truck"? rick floyd rick@rochester.ARPA seismo!rochester!rick ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Mar 1985 00:48:04-PST From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks dtn 223-9408) Subject: Re: Number of the Beast Someone asks about John T. Sladek's other stories - I can think of one: "Mechasm", an outrageous farce about a California Doll company that retools for a Defense contract, and builds a semi-intellegent robot which reproduces itself, endlessly - destroying Civilization As We Know It. A very funny and entertaining spoof on the American Way. maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue 2 Apr 85 07:58:22-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: "lesbian Gothic romance" I liked Mr Seeley's reviews a lot, but Joanna Russ certainly didn't invent, even fictionally, the "world's first lesbian Gothic romance". Credit for that achievement goes to J Sheridan le Fanu, for "Carmilla", first published in 1871. Plus c,a change... Robert Firth PS: made into a pretty bad movie by Hammer, as "The Vampire Lovers" ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker) Subject: Re: Memory recording stories Date: 29 Mar 85 02:51:22 GMT > The novels "A World Out Of Time" and "Integral Trees" by Larry > Niven also use the idea of putting a human's personality into a > computer, as does his Berserker story, "A Teardrop Falls" (in > /Limits/). There is also an excellent collection, written in collaboration with several authors, called _Berserker_Base_. Highly recommended, particurlaly if you liked "A Teardrop Falls," as it is essentially a novel-like continuation of that story. (I say novel-like because it dosen't seem to have the coherency that a ``book'' has, but it has the length) - Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin - ...{seismo!ut-sally|decvax!allegra|tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Date: 30 Mar 85 17:44:11 GMT > Yet again, it ought to be clear that the fewer qualifiers used, > the stronger the statement is. Have read Strunk and White's THE > ELEMENTS OF STYLE? It is the best book on English usage...never > mind. Your appeal to Strunk and White as an authority is beside the point. A statement can also be strong to the point of absurdity. Some writers use this for comic effect (it's called hyperbole). The unskillful or inappropriate use of hyperbole is defective style, pure and simple. > Another reason is that some of us like to "peg" ourselves. As > soon as I made that statement, some alert people learned a great > deal about me. More didn't, and still more couldn't care less, > but And what exactly is it that we're supposed to learn about you? I suggest you reread the statements I responded to (I've conveniently reproduced them a little later in this response). One of the qualities that separates good writing from bad writing is CLARITY. You don't have body language, voice intensity or pitch to convey information so all the meaning in a sentence must be conveyed by its content and structure. That's why we use smiley faces to indicate irony or hyperbole in our postings to the net. Asking a reader to read your mind or guess your meaning is just plain unfair. > Another possible reason is as a "Turkey Detector." That is, > anyone who doesn't see the implied In My Opinion in those > statements, and consequently Flames, is letting us know something > about him. Oh, come off it. Where are the `implied In My Opinions' in the following statements: >Also who wrote THE SHEEP LOOK UP , ( an english guy ?) , the Best >SF Book of all time . >>No. The best SF book of all time is LORD OF LIGHT by Roger >>Zelazny. It is also the best English Language book written in the >>twentieth century. >>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very >>>probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". The semantic content of these statements is clear and unambiguous. There's no information about the authors' intentions, so I'm totally incapable of commenting on whatever it was that you `really' meant. If you can show me ANYTHING in these statements that qualifies the superlative `best,' please point it out to me. I'm always ready and willing to learn. -- Regards, Bill. ------------------------------ From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Metropolis and Brunner Date: 1 Apr 85 02:27:26 GMT >>>The best English language book of the 20th century is very >>>probably Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings". > > The semantic content of these statements is clear and unambiguous. > There's no information about the authors' intentions, so I'm > totally incapable of commenting on whatever it was that you > `really' meant. If you can show me ANYTHING in these statements > that qualifies the superlative `best,' please point it out to me. > I'm always ready and willing to learn. > > -- Regards, Bill. Sorry, Bill. The statements all involved art works. There are no objective methods of judging one work of art (be it literature, music, sculpture, etc.) to be superior to another. One man's masterwork is often another man's bird-cage liner. Therefore, any statement "The best English language book is ..." automatically implies that the sentence should be interpreted as "I/We/Somebody/Most think the best English language book is ..." Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Filmex: "Sex Mission" Date: 28 Mar 85 06:51:51 GMT srt@ucla-cs.UUCP (Scott Turner) writes: >First, I thought the satire was incompletely done. The world >portrayed in the film mirrored current day totalitarianism, >obviously, but failed to develop the concept. It seems to me that >a film on a social problem needs 3 facets: > > 1) A development of why the situation is a problem > 2) A suggested solution > 3) The results of the solution > >Furthermore, I don't think that the parallel they develop has any >real bearing on modern day totalitarianism. If you mean the statement of the problem has no bearing, well, I think it does if one pursues certain parallels. As far as the solution goes, take it as a metaphor. In fact, the film "Sex Mission" is an example of the real world implementation of the sort of solution that was used in the picture: those who see the problem and dare to do something subverting the system from within by attacking the hearts and minds of the more complacent citizens. If works of art like "Sex Mission" don't get slapped down, then sooner or later their effect will be a population which won't put up with totalitarianism. "Sex Mission" thus must tread a rather fine line, for if its subversiveness is too obvious, the director could end up in jail or deported. >Some people are satisfied with a satire that only addresses the >first issue above, and I don't mean to contradict your viewpoint. >I'm only pointing out what seemed to me an incompleteness in the >film. I should mention that most of the great classic satires are no more than an exposition of problems. For instance, "Gulliver's Travels", "A Modest Proposal", and "The Threepenny Opera" all expose the absurdity of problems, but offer no serious solutions to the problems. As I see it, the satirist's job is to grab his audience by the shirtcollars and shake enough sense into them that they can see what's wrong. This is hard enough without demanding solutions. >Finally, I wanted to note that the foreigness of the picture is >really brought home in the final shot - something you definitely >wouldn't see in an American film. Definitely. This may wind up being a real tease, as, what with the current climate in America about certain subjects, an American release print may well have the last shot cut. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 85 17:12 PST From: Michael Wahrman Subject: Trumbull >From: orca!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine) > > This is a fine film about the development of a technology. What's > Trumbull doing today? Trumbull has at least two projects going. The first is a Showscan process film for Expo 85 which is in Montreal, I believe. The film is part of an amusement park ride: you are part of a commercial space shuttle flight in the near future. As in all of these projects there wasn't enough time or money and what gets shot by the time the money runs out is what will be in the film. I haven't seen any footage but the storyboards looked like a credible "tour of outer space". This will be the first significant Showscan model photography so far as I know. The other project is called Environmental Video and is the development of a widescreen video process based on five synchronized video projectors. There will be at least a little computer generated imagery created by Video Image, the graphics contractor for 2010. I haven't heard about any Trumbull film projects. I would guess that he would have trouble getting a deal in Hollywood based on the response to his previous films. Michael Wahrman ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 85 23:21:33 EST From: Jon Trudel Subject: Silent Running >If anyone remembers this was a film about Spaceships that had been >sent into space with a sampling of earths plant life to preserve it >from the destruction of a war then being waged on earth. The film was indeed Silent Running. It was made at a time when ecology was becoming a national/international issue. The ships were not preserving the plant life, but rather holding it until the Earth decided what to do with it. The Earth's population had grown to such a size that all plant and animal life had to be removed to make way for the people. Humans were in complete control of the environment and its 'resources'. Bruce Dern was one of the astronauts assigned to babysit pods which hold the plants and animals. He is the only one who still cares for the flora and fauna, when the time comes for them to be eliminated...(no spoiler here either)... I too think this is one of the better SF-Films, albeit with the ecological motif. The scientific material was well handled by the production staff, which I think was led by Douglass Trumbull. If you see it in the tv listings, watch it. You won't regret it. Jonathan D. Trudel ps- If you look closely, you can see footage of the Silent Running ships in Battlestar Galaxitive. They're the Agro vessels. ------------------------------ Date: 2-Apr-85 22:25 PST From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD From: Subject: Silent Running Cc: qumix!stoner@topaz.arpa I was talking with Joan Baez about her singing once. She did the music in the film. She told me that if she could get all the copies of the film and destroy them. She seemed to be embarrased by her association with the film. I told her I really enjoyed her music...she just gave me a funny look. I remember Jane Fonda once saying on a TV show that she would love to have all copies of BARBARELLA destroyed. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Apr 85 22:35:19 EST From: Jon Trudel Subject: Peter Davison As for other roles Peter Davison has played, so far no one has pointed out one of his more memorable roles. He was in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in the episode featuring Milliways. Those of you with tapes of the show can back me up on this, but I distinctly remember seeing his name in the credits as the Dish of the Day. Quite unlike his other roles, eh? Also, I believe I read in an issue of the Whovian Times that Davison was (and still is?) married to the actress who played Trillian. Jonathan D. Trudel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Apr 85 1623-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #114 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 4 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 114 Today's Topics: Books - Dean & Heinlein (2 msgs) & King & Leiber & Sladek & Spinrad & Miss Manners (2 msgs), Films - Brainstorm & Silent Running (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot) Subject: The Secret Country Date: 1 Apr 85 20:30:44 GMT Well, SZKB is right. _The_Secret_Country_ is great. Not the least of Pamela Dean's gifts is demonstrated in the conversation of the characters: it's natural. The tension in the conflict of is-this-a-game-or-is-this-reality, of this-is-beautiful-or-this-is- potentially-dangerous, is compelling and impossible to avoid. This will speak to all of us who've ever stared at the ceiling in the bedroom and piloted shuttles to the belt or tracked dragons or well, you know what I mean. I haven't read a book I felt such a strong desire to read again immediately (all-the-way-through, yes, yes!) in such a long time. And it's out in bookstores now (I got mine Saturday). L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UStale: DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Apr 85 08:08 IST From: Tamir Weiner Subject: submission to digest T H E N U M B E R O F T H E B E A S T by Robert Heinlein The original request for comments on this book came from Dave and at the begining of last week a reply came in from maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks dtn 223-9408) > ...If you were wondering about the quality of this story, I have > disappointing news for you. Namely, it Bites the proverbial Big > One. I had written to Dave personally to recommend that he read the book, as I had enjoyed it very much. I didn't want to do a formal review of the thing, cause it had been awhile since I had read it. So this is not a review so much as just a mini-flame to counter Maxson's comments which were published in issue 105 of the digest... > It's awful. Wretched, not worth the paper, and so on. I am a > great fan of Heinlein, and I guarantee no sane human could like > this book. Heinlein suffered a stroke and wrote this book as > therapy during his recovery - and it stands as a tragic depiction > of muddled thinking, ranting, obsession and mania. Although I wasn't aware of Heinlein's stroke and therapy, which in part explains some of the strangeness of this book (and certainly it's non traditional bent, I enjoyed it, I too am a Heinlein fan, and I'd bet other Heinlein fans have also enjoyed it. It's a bit strange in the second part of this book, but so then was Stranger in a Strange Land. That didn't stop its fame and fortune! What gives with this book? I'd say that at first the book moves well like any other traditional Heinlein Novel. The beginning takes off like a rocket. I enjoyed the first part of the book the most. He gets into some interesting ideas on AI and computer programming in this story. Later towards the end the book takes some unexpected turns. I think that he ended up philosophizing about the nature of fiction, and what is real and what is imaginary in all his worlds, in books, etc. The end of the book is a bit strange sometimes comical, definitely weird. I don't really want to tell you too much but if you're a Heinlein fan usually, I'd say it's definitely worth the read time. And if nothing else much fun. > It was a great joy to us Heinlein fans when "Friday" appeared, > signaling the recovery of RAH, the Dragon who Would Not Die. > If you read it, don't let your impression of Heinlein become > tarnished. Number of the Beast is a fluke, and clearly an > exception to the other excellent works Heinlein has given us. Ok here I can agree with "maxon"'s comments. Certainly FRIDAY was a return to Heinlein's old style and a terrific read. I'd say that FRIDAY is certainly my next favorite work of his (next to his Lazerous Long stuff). Regarding THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST -- in a nutshell I'd say: Read it, and don't take the end too seriously. Marc (ZSTAMIR@WEIZMANN.BITNET) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Apr 1985 20:11 EST (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Number of the Beast I remember hearing somewhere that the Beast's name, Melrooney, was an anagram for L. Ron O'Leemy (or is that used in the book? I haven't read it for some time, and wasn't too thrilled by it anyway), one of Heinlein's pen names way back when. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 3 Apr 1985 06:38:49-PST From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: STEPHEN KING, NEW BOOKS Mostly I agree with the review of 'Eyes of the Dragon' by Stephen King that appeared in vol. 10, issue 112. The book does suffer because it was written as a children's book. However, I did enjoy the book, I feel that 'Eyes..' is a fun read and I recommend it to anyone who likes FANTASY novels. Flagg is very much the same being as the Flagg in 'The Stand', although, he is not as scary in this book. Since 'The Eyes of the Dragon' is set in the Territories (as in 'The Talisman') this Flagg could be another version of the one in 'The Stand'. 'Eyes..' is not scheduled to be published as a trade edition until 1987, so it might be a while before you get to read it. A oversized paperback edition of King's 'Cycle of the Werewolf' will be published this month by Signet. This edition will include the original art by Bernie Wrightson from the hardcover published by The Land of Enchantment. 'Cycle of the Werewolf' is really a novella, I think it is a great story & the artwork is very nice, it is very short about 50 pages of text. This story is being made into a movie titled 'The Silver Bullet'. I recommend this book very highly, even if it's a bit expensive (@ $8.95). Also this month is Stephen King's second collection of short stories, 'Skeleton Crew', (@ $18.95 from Putnam). And now that King's admitted that he was writing as Richard Bachman there will be a 4 in 1 omnibus edition of the first 4 Bachman books 'The Running Man', 'Rage, 'The Long Walk' and 'Roadwork'. The fifth book 'Thinner' is still available. I have all 5 books by Richard Bachman, if there is enough interest I will do reviews of them. I just started getting SF_LOVER, so, if I have gone over things that have already been discussed, let me know. KEN COBB ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 2 Apr 1985 18:29:44-PST From: moreau%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN From: 381-2102) Subject: Response to story request > From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) > A government employee, investigating packages and letters from > individuals classified as potential subversives, finds a > suspicious parcel. This is the second such parcel he has observed > in the last few months. Opening the parcel reveals a photograph > and letter. I am uncertain this is the one you mean, but there was a short story published in 1958 in Galaxy, by the name of "The Last Letter", written by Fritz Leiber. It was amusing, and dealt with the horrifying (at least to the people in the story) concept that the public mail system could be used to send a letter from one person to another, rather than being used for their rightful purpose, of sending advertising brochures from a company to everyone in the world. Ken Moreau ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 4 Apr 1985 04:48:41-PST From: lionel%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: John Sladek In addition to "The Reproductive System", Sladek published (at least) two more recent novels about a boy-robot named Roderick. I read the first and found it quite similar in style to The Reproductive System, which means that I felt that I was missing 90% of the content. As I recall, Roderick was the result of a project at a small school, and when the funding for the project was eliminated, Roderick was taken away. I also seem to remember something about him being kidnapped by gypsies.... You might still be able to find these in larger bookstores. TRS was also reprinted recently (last few years) - I first read it as Mechasm (or was it the other way around - never mind..) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Apr 85 13:34 EST From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Spinrad's "Riding the Torch" > From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) > RIDING THE TORCH by Norman Spinrad > Bluejay, 1985, $6.95. > A book review by Mark R. Leeper > Hoy Cow! I just got my hands on a new Bluejay book. The > book is Norman Spinrad's RIDING THE TORCH. It goes for $6.95. > The story is 144 pages long, padded out with MUCHO blank pages > and internal illustrations. There probably are no more than 100 > pages of story.... This novella earlier appeared as part of a three-story anthology ("Threads of Time," published about ten years ago) and as half of a Dell double (maybe five years ago, probably during Jim Frenkel's tenure at Dell). (Jayembee can no doubt supply details.) I haven't seen the Blujay edition, but Mark is right -- this shouldn't be marketed as a novel. >Now I may not be the world's best person to review the story itself I won't disagree. >Spinrad is heavily into writing style, and frankly, I prefer ideas I like both, and I wasn't disappointed in this story. In fact, it's one of my all-time favorites. >RIDING THE TORCH is probably NOT the best way a science fiction fan >can spend $6.95. As much as I've always loved RTT, I'd have to agree. Find one of the earlier versions. ------------------------------ From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot... Date: 30 Mar 85 20:43:06 GMT I agree with Brust about Miss Manners. She is an excellent writer. More, she understands that "manners" are not a matter of adhering to some societal rule-book, but simply being nice to people. I particularly liked her response to the correspondent who asked what to say on being introduced to a homosexual couple. "How do you do. How do you do." Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University, Networking ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" ------------------------------ From: osiris!jcp@topaz.arpa (Jody Patilla) Subject: Re: Ooops, I forgot... Date: 1 Apr 85 16:28:36 GMT > Mister Writer appreciates the time you are taking to respond to > this rather delicate issue, but wonders if you have, in fact, > taken the time to read carefully. Mister Writer finds Miss > Manners style a pure delight, and is saddened that there aren't > more readers who appreciate complete mastery of the language > blended with a gently ironic touch of nineteenth century > Romanticism. > > -- SKZB Miss Manners tries very hard (and sometimes succeeds) to sound like that paragon among writers, that angel of the language, that model of perfection, Jane Austen. (Janeites unite !) jcpatilla ------------------------------ Subject: Brainstorm Date: 04 Apr 85 07:39:52 EST (Thu) From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA For those of you who have access to HBO, Brainstorm will be on this month several times. We can all see that last scene again and tie up those loose ends on this discussion! (Or, then again, it may start itself up all over again). -Nancy ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?") Date: 03 Apr 85 00:35:58 PST (Wed) From: Alastair Milne > I really have too many 'BEST' movie's to pick just one though I am > rather surprised to see no mention of the movie "Silent Running" > (or was it "Running Silent"?) with Bruce Dern and his three robots > Huey,Duey,and Luey.If anyone remembers this was a film about > Spaceships that had been sent into space with a sampling of earths > plant life to preserve it from the destruction of a war then being > waged on earth. The the order came thru that the U.S could no > longer support the maintenance of the plants and they would have > to be destroyed and ...... (No Spoiler).....If you havn't seen the > movie I would recomend it. I beg your pardon, I mentioned "Silent Running" (yes, that's the name) a long time ago. Personally, I list it not too far after 2001, which is that rare beast for me, an absolute all-time favourite. "Silent Running" is beautiful, with well-done, convincing effects, the sympathetic little drones Huey, Duey, and Looie (sorry, don't know how to spell them; I have better things to do than tag about after Walt Disney), and most especially the finest role I have ever seen Bruce Dern play . Fortunately, unlike 2001, Silent Running is shown now and again on television. Gives you a chance to enjoy it again just as you were starting to forget it. (2001 on TV is NOT a good idea. It really needs a large screen, and a fine sound system). As I recall, the ships were taking not merely a sampling, but all the plants left on Earth (the remainder had been wiped out). Furthermore, it wasn't just plants: small animals, and birds, were among the cargo, so that the ships were really carrying a lot of parks and forests.. They weren't just flying greenhouses. A corporate or governmental decision was to be taken whether the forestry was to be saved (aboard the ships, of course), or discarded, and the ships returned to Earth for more "useful" work. As the film opens, the crews are awaiting that decision. My vote for best effect in Silent Running: the explosions in space. You so seldom see those done correctly, but they're done correctly here. Of course, you might argue in favour of the rings of Saturn, and I don't really see how I could criticise if you did ... Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 08:50 PST From: WPHILLIPS.ES@XEROX.ARPA Subject: "Silent Running" The name of the movie is indeed "Silent Running". If my memory is correct (and I can correct or verify any of the following info later), The movie was ment as a kind of social statement, eccology and all that. I think, (mind you I'm not sure), that "Silent Runing" was started out as a project for a college film class. I'm fairly sure it was done on a tight bugget, but you couldn't tell from the quality, or I couldn't. If your'e wondering why, here's part of it. All of the interior sets,(except the domes), were done on an old aircraft carrier. Hear's a small bit of worthless information, :-> the sound track was rereleased a couple of years ago (pressed on transparent green vinyl no less). I think its still available, though hard to find. Personally I liked the film. I would also add my recommendation to see it. Here's a couple of trivia questions for those of you who've seen "Silent Running" 1) Who is the artist who did the title track? 2) How do the drones work? Wendel ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@topaz.arpa (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: The official BBC position on Doctor Who Date: 3 Apr 85 21:14:00 GMT Your letter was far from personal: on net.tv.drwho, James Armstrong says that he received the identical letter. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Apr 85 1640-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #115 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 5 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Dick & Hartwell, Films - Silent Running (2 msgs), Telvision - Dr. Who ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot) Subject: publishers of _To_Reign_in_Hell_ Date: 3 Apr 85 13:58:54 GMT > I haven't seen _To_Reign_In_Hell_ anywhere. Who's the publisher? > How much is it? SteelDragon Press came out with it first in a nice hardcover edition. (Their business card says Box 7253 Powderhorn station, Minneapolis MN 55407 (617) 721-6076.) Paperback is from Ace Fantasy, just like _Jhereg_ and _Yendi_; I first saw it in the bookstores here the last weekend in March. Didn't everyone see the ad on the first page of F&SF this month from Ace for Brust's and Wrede's latest books?! L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA USFail: DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa Subject: To Reign in Hell (Stephen Brust) Date: 2 Apr 85 20:01:37 GMT Just finished reading this book, which I don't think I would have normally picked up, but since the author is a net type person... The book concerns a struggle in Heaven, between the various of the Heavenly Host. The premise is to show how events like the fall of Satan, etc., might have actually happened quite differently, but still have given rise to the standard interpretation. The problem with writing this sort of a book is that the author has started off by placing severe limitations upon himself. First of all, he has to write a story that supports the standard interpretation of the struggle in heaven. Secondly, he has to craft the story so that the reader is left with an entirely different viewpoint about what happened. Third, within this framework he has to write a story. Brust handles the first two points nicely. I'm not well read on the various myths about the fall of Satan, etc., but the story fit in well with what I do know. The story also left me with a new view on the fall of Satan, so it succeeded on the second point as well. However, the story fails (somewhat) on the third point. I'm of the opinion that a story must be personal in order to succeed. That is, even if you intend to tell the story of some sweeping historical change, you must show how that change has some personal effect on someone. LOTR does this admirably. Although the story is, on one level, a struggle between good and evil, it succeeds because it shows how this struggle is reflected in the life of Frodo. To Reign In Hell doesn't do this. If you've read the book, ask yourself who the main character is. Satan? Well, much of the action does revolve around Satan, but he isn't (strangely) central to the story. In fact, the story doesn't have a main character, and that, I think, is its major failing. By not having a personal side, and by not showing a great deal of character development, etc., TRIH fails to be a complete story. On to some unrelated comments. I found two ideas in TRIH to be fairly fascinating. First, there is the idea that the angels were at some time ignorant of morality. This idea is only hinted at and then abandoned. The hint is when they question whether or not they have the right to force other angels to do something. At first they seem surprised by the question (and, indeed, Michael never does see the point), but the issue is never fully developed, and there are plenty of actions by angels that contradict this premise (i.e, Abdiel worries about what he is doing, Jaweh feels love, etc.). Still, this is a fascinating idea. Suppose you had a world full of creatures who had no morality at all. What would they (and their society) be like? The second idea is the implication that Jesus Christ was the SECOND coming, and not the first. I'm not sure if Brust intended this or not, but it occurred to me while reading the book, and I found it to be an interesting idea. I'm not sure how this can be used in a story, but it makes a fascinating premise. -- Scott Turner ------------------------------ From: anwar!chuck@topaz.arpa (chuck jann) Subject: any philip K. Dick fans out there? Date: 3 Apr 85 21:33:10 GMT Greatings ; In the latest cataogue from "THE SCIENCE FICTION SHOP" there is a listing for a new hardcover called "Milton Lumkey Territory" by Philip K. Dick. Now we all know he didn't just write this last month, but I have never heard of this book before. Does anyone know anything at all about this? At $29.95 I'm not going to run right out and buy a copy. Any info at all would be nice. thanks in advance, chuck UUCP address: {ihnp4,decvax,allegra}!philabs!hhb!chuck ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 4 Apr 1985 04:53:00-PST From: redford%doctor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) Subject: "Age of Wonders" by Hartwell I picked up an interesting hardback a few weeks ago: "Age of Wonders" by David G. Hartwell. It's a general discussion of SF by the former editor of the Timescape series. Timescape had a consistently high standard of novels and a consistently high level of bickering with the publisher, and so is no longer with us. Nevertheless, Hartwell has a lot of interesting things to say. Chapter 5 is called "When It Comes True, It's No Fun Anymore" and is about the collapse of the field in the late Fifties, just when everyone thought that SF would finally become respectable: "... Until 1957, a whole lot of the creative energy of SF had gone into visions of space and space travel, producing a large majority of the popular enduring works up to that time. A wave of excitement and euphoria broke over SF in late 1957: Finally, it's real! Now everyone will know that we were right all along, all during those decades when we were called space nuts (or simply nuts) - we were the ones who had faith, who knew, and now the world is at our feet! "Within a few weeks the horrible truths began to pile up. The world didn't care that the SF field had been right all along - aside from a few early headlines and Sunday-supplement pieces about science fiction becoming science fact, no one paid any more attention to SF than they ever had. And as 1958 wore on, it got worse: Fewer and fewer people were buying and reading SF books and magazines. During the years after Sputnik, the field declined radically. "... The truth is that in a single instant the fact of space travel turned most of the classic space travel stories of science fiction into fantasies. Every week of the new space age made more science fiction untrue. This was such a big thing for SF that no one could quite think it through at the time. Everyone knew that something was really wrong, however, and the sudden decline in SF was a numbing disappointment to everyone, coming at the end of the great boom in SF that characterized the early Fifties. "In such classics as Heinlein's "The Man Who Sold the Moon," SF readers had been told in no uncertain terms that space travel would be a private enterprise, usually the inspiration of an Edisonlike inventor or visionary businessman. That the Russian government had gotten there first, that the U.S. military would follow in a bungling fashion (at least initially) boggled SF readers. Doc Smith's "The Skylark of Space", Heinlein's Future History stories, all the classics and standard works were now no longer improbable but possible: They were dead wrong. Space travel, one of the greatest visions of generations of SF writes and fans, was real and the euphoria of SF fans at the fact was real, but a major and confusing readjustment was suddenly necessary." He then goes on to discuss the idea that SF is supposed to be a predictor of technology, largely because John W. Campbell thought that way. Sometimes someone gets lucky in the prediction game, but more often it turns out different, and worse, than anyone expected. As Jerry Pournelle once said about the first Moon landing, "Only NASA could take the greatest event in human history and make it boring!" Hartwell says SF is about prophecy, not prediction. Its purpose is to provide visionary images, not blueprints. That SF is possible at all is what distinguishes it from fantasy, but we shouldn't expect too much from it. When you start to think it's real is when you go off into the depths of flying saucerdom or Scientology. Now, I'm not quite sure I go along with all that. Visionary images are fine, but only if there isn't something obviously wrong with them. Remember the flap in these (disk) pages a few months ago over "Dune"? I, and a number of other people, rejected "Dune" because of the holes in its science and plot. Sure, you get a thrill when the huge sandworm comes bursting up out of the desert, but if a small voice says "Wait a minute, that can't work", then the thrill is gone. The Dune movie was even worse in this respect. It had lots of great effects, but they were spoiled by the dumb dialogue and plot. I'll go along with the idea that it doesn't have to be true down to the last rivet, but I don't want to turn my brain off completely when I read. John Redford DEC-Hudson ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?") Date: 4 Apr 85 00:42:32 GMT >I really have to many 'BEST' movie's to pick just one though I am >rather surprised to see no mention of the movie "Silent Running" >(or was it "Running Silent"?) with Bruce Dern and his three robots >Huey,Duey,and Luey. I have a really good reason for not mentioning SILENT RUNNING among the best of science fiction films. I dislike it. At times very much. There was a film that came out in 1971 called BILLY JACK. At the time it struck a responsive chord and lot's of people liked it very much. Those same people look at the film today totally aghast! Both BILLY JACK and SILENT RUNNING are films that preach to horribly -- and only to the converted. They both pander to a particular political viewpoint that people could groove on when they came out without thinking too much about the content. In SILENT RUNNING we learn that the meanies on earth years ago sent all of the forests into orbit. For a piece of ecological science fiction it stops to think very little about what the ecological effect on Earth would be without the plant life and instead make a sentimental appeal that the forests and all the dewy-eyed animals are gone. There is no explanation as to what people are breathing these days on old Mother Earth with all the trees in space. In any case, just in case somebody in the future gets nostalgic for the days when Earth had oxygen, they keep the forests alive by shooting them into space and having a bunch of not-very-dedicated space cadets tend the forests. Then those nasty earth people decide to use of the last of their oxygen burning their bridges behind them. The ships cost too much to maintain, they have to be nuked. It is a heck of a lot cheaper to jettison the forests in the direction of the sun, or away, where they will not be a hazard to navigation, but nasties and nuking go together so all the forests and the sweet dewy-eyed animals have to be nuked. How much would it cost to let the forests run themselves, as one person figures out at a different point of the film, not one red penny. Automatic systems could maintain the forests on solar power, apparently, but there is not one scientist on Earth who thinks of that before the last of the forests is nuked. They apparently are all hot to see the fireworks display. Ah, but one ecologist rebels. Freeman Lowell -- even the name is corny -- decides to rebel and take his forest away from the sun and out to the orbit of Saturn. There the forest seems to mysteriously get sick. Can you guess why a forest that was healthy in Earth's orbit might get sick out in Saturn's orbit? Ecologist Freeman Lowell can't. Not for a long time, anyway. I guess this is a film with its heart in the right place, but it was just stupid. I like trees and I am an animal rights advocate. But dammit, this film makes a studid argument by saying wouldn't it be sad if these things were gone. Friend, it wouldn't be sad 'cause you need oxygen to be sad. You ain't got oxygen, you ain't gonna be around to miss the chipmunks. A filmmaker who tells you that the reason to protect the environment is just to save the pretty trees and animals is being criminally irresponsible. (I really expect someone to pop up at this point and say that maybe the Earthlings are getting their oxygen from moss or something. I think that currently a fair proportion of our oxygen comes from things SILENT RUNNING is claiming are going away. Even in the dubious possibility that a stable eco-system is possible based on other sources of oxygen, you can't get there from here without a whole lot of disruption that would probably kill off old Homo Saps anyway.) Joan Baez sang the song under the credits which seems somehow fitting. That is not an attack on her (though I really dislike her for other reasons). It is just that she, like this film, tends to appeal to people's emotions rather than their reasoning. The music was pretty good, written by Peter Schickle who is better known for P. D. Q. Bach tours. The robots were played by bi-lateral amputees, incidently, and it is good that they could find work. Still none of these positive points outweighs the major faults of the story. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: amdahl!canopus@topaz.arpa (Frank Dibbell) Subject: Re: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?") Date: 3 Apr 85 18:42:00 GMT > (David A. Stone:) > I really have to many 'BEST' movie's to pick just one though I am > rather surprised to see no mention of the movie "Silent Running" > (or was it "Running Silent"?) with Bruce Dern and his three robots > Huey,Duey,and Luey. (...)one It was "Silent Running". I saw it too, and was impressed with it. My guess is that it was a bit too "cerebral", and a bit "slow" - reasons why it wasn't more popular. Excellent special effects. It was also interesting to see Bruce Dern play something other than a scruffy cowboy! Frank Dibbell (408-746-6493) {whatever}!amdahl!canopus [R.A. 6h 22m 30s Dec. -52d 36m] [Generic disclaimer.....] ------------------------------ Subject: Let us put our minds at ease... From: S. C. Colbath Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1985 14:55 EST Just to throw my two cents in with Larry Seiler.. I have "contacts" in the promotional department at our local Public Broadcasting station, and managed to get ahold of a copy of a letter from the *President* of Lionheart television to the director of the station. Apparently the rumor has been kicking around PBS about the "hiatus" and the cancellation, and although the "hiatus" will happen, the cancellation will not. An excerpt from the letter: You may have recently heard that the BBC is placing Doctor Who on hiatus until fall of 1986. We at Lionheart Television want to assure you as a valued customer that you will see _no_ interruption in your Doctor Who program flow. I have had conversations with executives at the highest levels of the BBC who personally assure me that The Doctor will return bigger and better than ever. In the meantime, we will continue to supply you with new, never before seen programs. Although this may have been the stock form letter in response to a vast number of queries, it is comforting to know. And it WAS on Dr. Who/Lionheart stationary. Sean Colbath cpe07401%maine.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Apr 85 1044-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #116 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 116 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Dean & Ellison & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Pohl, Films - Silent Running (5 msgs) & Explosions in SF Films & Buckaroo Banzai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 15:22 PST From: Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Melrooney, and Statements from Brust While I read JHEREG and YENDI dutifully when on loan from a friend, I thought, "Nice books, but I'll buy them used, no hurry." I was also unemployed at the time, mind you. BUUTT(aspirated), since I've been on this dl and have been reading SKZB's comments, I am much more inclined to run out and purchase immediately publication notice reaches me, because I have a much better idea of how his mind and humor works, and now I want to see just what he'll do next with this set of characters, or what other characters he'll discover. A. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 85 09:55 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Pamela Dean/Secret Country You folks are a hard act to follow. The Secret Country came out here last Saturday, I had it read before I went to sleep, and intended to do a review. I let three days pass and someone else beats me to the punch. By the way, Pamela Dean is married to David Dyer-Bennet who occasionally reads this digest. T h e S e c r e t C o u n t r y ! ! READ THIS BOOK! This is the first book by a new author and is very good. Its the first book in years about "children going to a magical land" which is really fresh and new. I had the same feeling of "good heavens, I have found a magical ring!" as I did 10 years ago when I first started playing Fantasy Role Playing games! Now that I have said how good it is, let me tell you a few minor picks. The children kept keeping secret about where they are from, and why they are doing some strange things. After 3/4 of the book I began to wish they would either tell someone, or try to find out what brought them to the land in the first place. I get very tired of stories where the hero(ine) walks around in ignorance the whole book. At least these children made some attempt to gain knowledge of their position. I didn't realize until the end that this was a multi-volume book. Now I have to wait to read more of Pamela Dean's work. ARGHHH! ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Ellison-- Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed Date: 6 Apr 85 07:02:17 GMT It is with some trepidation that I murmur the words 'Harlan Ellison' to this group. It is a subject for which there is no gray, no middle ground, no truce. You love him, you hate him. Regardless of which camp you pup your tent in, the fact remains that Harlan is a powerful writer. He may on occasion write badly, but his command of the English language permits us to say he never writes poorly. His is not the airy vista of the heroic fantasy, the endless wastes of space; his turf is here, and now, and much closer to home, the darkest closets of humanity that serve to hide the deepest secrets that make us human. As Harlan writes, so is he judged. With 'Croatoan', with 'Basilisk', with 'Deathbird', with every story that successfully fires the fury of those found guilty by his words, Harlan is judged by the self-righteous, the petty, the fearful. By the guilty. And by the rest of us. Harlan the miscreant. Harlan the egotist. Harlan the lecher, the anti-man anti-women anti-american anti-conservative anti-liberal gun-hating commie pinko fag. What most people forget, though, is that those stories are not Harlan. Those stories are Social Conscience. 'Sleepless Nights in the Procrustean Bed' (Borgo Press, $7.95), a collection of his non-fiction essays from 60's to the 80's, show that the stories Harlan writes are simply mirrors held forward to show the failures and foibles of people. Those who throw stones at such a mirror should beware-- the figure they stone is not Harlan, but a distorted mirror image of their worst fears. Sleepless Nights, however, goes a long way towards showing Harlan as Harlan. As strong and powerful as his fiction writing is, he seems most at home with the non-fiction, and seeing it in general print allows us to remove a lot of the bias that has been leveled at him. The ego is still there, the stubborn and the opinion-- these are all here, but in perspective. Harlan takes his stand, but he takes his falls as well, he stands up on his soapbox, and he sticks his tongue firmly in his cheek. Unlike many, he isn't afraid to take a stand, but he takes stands because he believes in them, not because they generate publicity. If there is one thing this book does, it brings forward the realization that Harlan is human. It is one thing for the weak to hack *Egotist* *Harlan* *Ellison* to their own level, it is quite another to see him as Harlan Ellison, who cries when his mother dies, who laughs, who hurts, who grieves, and realize that all of the righteous umbrage tossed at him are tossed at a straw man, a non-existant shadow of ourselves. As you might have guessed, I'm a long-time fan of Harlan. I've read his worked, heard his talk, studied, guessed, fantasized, and analyzied him through the works of him and many others. He has entertained, disturbed, frightened, hurt, cajoled, and ripped me open to my naked soul. I've loved him and hated him, usually simultaneously. There are parts of his work that will follow me to my grave, enlivening my dreams and haunting my nightmares. I've read as much of his work as I could, cursing him to his grave, praying for his soul. I haven't always liked what I read, but I read it anyway. After all of that, reading Sleepless Nights finally allows me a perspective on him, instead of a perspective of the shadow of him flitting through his works. I realize now that when I throw a stone berating him for some raw nerve he hit, the recipient isn't him. For Harlan readers, this book is a must. It tells you more about Harlan than anything I've read, not because it is about him, but because the writing is him-- the poses of his fiction are gone, the outrage is tempered by wit and wisdom, the writing much less manic. It teaches you as much about Harlan the man as it does the subjects on which he talks, and for that it is an important work. For Harlan haters, I suggest you read it, too. You just might find that you've been throwing sticks at a straw man. It might give you an angle with which to better reach for and understand his other works. It might do nothing, but you'll be no worse off. Harlan is, simply, one of the most important writers of the century. Long after most of the 'names' are gone and buried in the remainder rack, his work will stand out and be read and remembered. Anything that helps us and those beyond us to understand this man better helps make his work more accessible, and this book does that. Find it. Buy it (borrow it, steal it, I don't care). Read it. Love it, hate it, but try it. :From the closet of anxieties of: Chuq Von Rospach, National Semiconductor {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Apr 85 15:22 PST From: Fournier.pasa@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Melrooney, and Statements from Brust According to one of my friends, all the names of the Beast in NotB are indeed anagrams, but of R. A. Heinlein OR HIS PSEUDONYMS. This seems to work. A. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ From: mako!marko@topaz.arpa (Mark O'Shea) Subject: Re: Digest V10 #105: Heinlein's stroke Date: 3 Apr 85 16:40:16 GMT I am a big fan of RAH and "Friday" was very much in the style I have grown to know and love. I have a question. Has Anyone read "The Number of the Beast"? I read it and am puzzled. Did RAH put one over on me? Did I just miss the point(s). Was it just a different tack and I wasn't ready for it? Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks. No need to post a reply unless you want to. A reply by mail would satisfy me. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri 5 Apr 85 11:17:38-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Heinlein How can you forget "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"? That has to be Heinlein's best novel. I liked Job, Friday to a lesser extent, and 666 even less, and I am afraid I have found the Lazarus Long material only passable (those characters just get on my nerves after a while, say 2000 years, you know?). -Laurence ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Heinlein (a funny name in...) Date: 5 Apr 85 14:02:18 GMT Heinlein mentions "The Glaroon" in Job and another story (trivia question: what story?) Does anyone have any idea what the devil a glaroon is? Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: bottom@katadn.DEC Subject: Heechee rndezvous-slight spoiler Date: 4 Apr 85 12:16:43 GMT ******SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!!!!****** I just finished Heechee Rendezvous and found a couple of inconsistancies that are bothering me. Maybe you net folk caught something I missed. For example when Robin and Essie first let in the True Love she said that she didn't have room on the data fans for Sigfried Von Shrink, something to the effect that she should have left off the Gourmet cooking software and included the Shrink. Then when Albert goes off his rocker Robin calls up the Sigfreid program to help Albert get himself together. I don't get it. Also when Albert was explaining how he found the sailship and the Heechee ship he said that he calculated the number of seconds since the original sighting and then figured out how far the ship could have traveled in that time. How did he know which direction to go in? There was something else but I forget it now. Well net-folk your mission if you decide to accept is to help me understand how this all came about. Any comments? *db* dec-katadn!bottom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 85 16:19:22 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Silent Running (Spoilers) The recent mention of Silent Running prompts me to post some comments about the film -- I get annoyed about these elements in the plot every time I see it. First off, Dern (I don't recall the character's name, so I'll use the actor's) is very concerned with the fate of the plants and animals in the eco-domes. He goes berserk when Earth orders them destroyed. So what does he do? He DESTROYS most of them, just in order to kill off the other crewmen! This is ridiculous! Secondly, then what does he do? He heads out, away from the sun, so that the plants die off and the stuff in the remaining dome(s?) freezes. He could have selected an orbit that put him on the opposite side of the sun from earth, still shielded from them but allowing the sunlight to keep the dome contents alive. He doesn't. Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed. They could have called back the crew, and Dern could have chosen to stay as a hermit or whatever, and the ships could have orbited endlessly at no cost to Earth. This sort of basic plot failure spoils what could otherwise be a really enjoyable movie. Will ------------------------------ From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken) Subject: Re: Best Movie ("Silent Running" or "Running Silent?") Date: 4 Apr 85 18:13:08 GMT For a while, "Silent Running" was what I considered the best movie I had ever seen. It was the only movie to make me cry, back when I saw it in 1972. (I was 11.) Superb. ------------------------------ From: cvl!hsu@topaz.arpa (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: "Silent Running" Date: 4 Apr 85 14:38:24 GMT > 2) How do the drones work? > > Wendel By this, what do you mean? The legless child actors inside? -dave ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz.arpa (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: Silent Running (music) Date: 4 Apr 85 17:08:08 GMT One interesting point about "Silent Running" is the music... written by a chap named Peter Schickele (sp?). For those music purists out there, (:-) ) he is the "Discoverer" of the music of P.D.Q. Bach. From what I've read, he now writes serious music under a different name to avoid... contamination??? :-) Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 5 Apr 85 10:48:30-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #114 >From: Alastair Milne >the sympathetic little drones Huey, Duey, and Looie (sorry, don't >know how to spell them; I have better things to do than tag about >after Walt Disney) It's Huey (like the helicopter), Dewey (like the decimal), and Louie (like nothing clever that I can think of). Rich Alderson@SCORE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Apr 85 12:41:27 CST From: Mike Caplinger Subject: SF movie explosions Alastair Milne points out that the explosions in SILENT RUNNING are instances of that rare thing, a convincing \in vacuo/ explosion in an SF movie. Unfortunately, I can't think of even ONE other example. Can anyone else? The one thing I've never forgiven George Lucas for is the incredibly stupid explosion he used in STAR WARS, which has since been duplicated by every other space shoot 'em up. - Mike ps. The explosion of Jupiter in 2010 doesn't count, though it was well done. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Apr 85 11:18:41 PST (Friday) From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Beefaroo Bonzoy! To: chris@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,comay@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,Conde.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA To: , To: edward@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,Lady Lleyn To: , To: To: leres@UCB-ARPA.ARPA,Mackey.pa@Xerox.ARPA,marshall@UCB-ARPA.ARPA, To: Poskanzer.SV@Xerox.ARPA,(sarge%UCBCORY@Berkeley.ARPA, To: Yamamoto.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA,Yang.pa@Xerox.ARPA, To: doctor%UCBMIRO@UCB-VAX.ARPA RECEIVED: 4 APR 85 1. 1 Each, Official Buckaroo Banzai Fan Paraphanelia 2. 1 Each, Application for enrollment in the Blue Blaze [sic] Irregulars Contents of Item 1: A. 1 Ea., glossy 4 page color Production Information folio B. 1 Ea., Newsletter, Banzai Institute (On official "Banzai Institute For Biomedical Engineering and Strategic Information" stationary). C. 1 Ea., "Moving Through Matter", article by Dr. Cary I Sneider D. 1 Ea., "Some Hard Facts and Persistant Rumors Concerning Buckaroo Banzai" by W.D. Richter (Director/Producer of the movie) E. 1 Ea., Biographical information on Team Banzai residents F. 2 Ea., Team Banzai pin G. 2 Ea., Team Banzai sticker Contents of Item 2: A. 1 Ea., personal note from Denise Tathwell, quote: "We are contacting those showing interest to ask what you'd [sic] like to see in a BANZAI fan club." (Any suggestions?) Banzai Words: "If all wishes were gratified, many dreams would be destroyed." Commodore Perry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 85 1038-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #117 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 117 Today's Topics: Books - Dick & Heinlein & King (3 msgs), Films - Star Trek IV & Star Wars & Silent Running (2 msgs) & Trumbull & Explosions in SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, 8 Apr 1985 12:58:36-PST From: lary%mariah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: "new" Philip K. Dick novels The book "In Milton Lumky (Lumkey?) Territory" is the third of Philip K. Dick's "mainstream" novels to be released; the other two are "Confessions of a Crap Artist" and "The Man Whose Teeth Were All Exactly Alike". Dick wrote several mainstream novels in the late 50's and early 60's, but none of them were accepted for publication, so he concentrated on science fiction thereafter. Several unpublished manuscripts exist in the Philip K. Dick archives at Cal State Fullerton, and some of them will follow "In Milton Lumky Territory" into print in the future. The writing style of the previously published mainstream novels is very similiar to that of Dick's science fiction (i.e. uneven, but excellent when it works - editorial comment) and elements of the fantastic do enter, but they are purely subjective (delusions, hoaxes, etc); these are not science fiction novels, but they are worth reading. I have not received my copy of IMLT yet. Richard Lary ------------------------------ From: nmtvax!student@topaz.arpa Subject: FRIDAY Date: 7 Apr 85 23:01:27 GMT A while back there was a message posted about Heinlein's FRIDAY in which the artificial persons had a code to identify themselves. The code was not supposed to be "My mother was a test tube, my father a knife." Since I had not read the book the first time this came through I ignored it but I am now curious. Could anyone with knowledge about this MAIL me information? Sincerely; Greg Hennessy ..ucbvax!unmvax!nmtvax!student ------------------------------ From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban) Subject: Stephen King Date: 4 Apr 85 13:34:57 GMT Well, every so often I feel compelled to keep the net up to date on the latest Stephen King news, so here goes: Books: 1) "Skeleton Crew" has a publicaion date of June 21st, according to the publicity department at Putnam (though with the unexpected success of "Thinner", there is a possibility that this date will be set back). 2) This fall, the original, unexpurgated version of "The Stand" will be released (I assume from Doubleday). The length will be about 1300 pages. 3) His first new novel (under his own name) since "The Talisman" will be "It", and is tentatively slated for a 1986 release. 4) "Eyes of the Dragon" is due in late 1987, and a new science fiction-fantasy novel called "The Tommyknockers" will be released sometime in 1988. Does anyone know when "The Drawing of the Four", the second installment in "The Dark Tower" series, is due? Movies: 1) "Cat's Eye" will be released on April 12th. 2) "Silver Bullet" is scheduled for release on October 11th. 3) Rob("This Is Spinal Tap", "The Real Thing")Reiner is scheduled to start shooting "The Body" from the "Different Seasons" collection for Embassy Pictures in mid-June. 4) "The Talisman" - who knows? After all the hoopla surrounding Speilberg's purchase of the film rights, the project seems to be in limbo (no shooting date, director, cast have been announced). 5) "The Stand" is supposed to be filmed in Texas, and "Pet Sematary" in Maine, but it doesn't look as if either project will come to fruition soon. Television: 1) King is supposed to contribute scripts to the new "Twilight Zone" series to be on the fall 1985 schedule. And yes, I for one would be interested in hearing some reviews of his Richard Bachman books (I have "Roadwork", "The Running Man" and "Thinner", but have not had a chance to read any of them yet). Whew! I hope some of you found that interesting! Rick Urban AT&T Network Systems Columbus, Ohio ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE STAND Date: 5 Apr 85 19:06:54 GMT THE STAND by Stephen King New American Library. A book review by Mark R. Leeper I have often claimed that Stephen King overwrites his books. Most of his stories are good stories but are padded out by giving long histories to introduce his characters. An idea that Richard Matheson or Charles Beaumont or even Robert Bloch would write as a 20-page story, King will write and sell as a novel. A recent example is PET SEMETARY, which is little more than a novel-length version of Jacobs's "The Monkey's Well, I finally have read a Stephen King horror story with enough idea for a 180-page novel. And his mean, nasty publisher made him trim it down to about 820 pages. But fear not, the complete untrimmed version is on its way. For those who don't already know what THE STAND is about--and I seem to be one of the few people who have not read it till now--a highly virulent version of the flu is accidentally released from a government biological research facility. The resulting plague kills off all but a very small part of the U.S. population. The survivors start having dreams of one or both of two people who are starting communities. The good people are drawn to Mother Abigail, a black woman over 100 years old. The baddies, including us technologists, are drawn to some guy known variously as "the walking dude," "the dark man," and Flagg. In Las Vegas, Nevada, sin capital of the world, Flagg builds his society of psychopaths and engineers. Of course, the good and bad people plan to war on each other, and thereby hangs the tale. THE STAND for too much of the book does just that. It stands. It doesn't fall on its face, but it doesn't move ahead either. There are about 350 pages in which not much happens really. The good people just set up their government and occasionally disagree with each other. Horror fans who enjoy this sort of story-telling will also enjoy reading THE FEDERALIST PAPERS. In the last 200 pages the story returns to the book and it is good to have it back. My recommendation: read THE STAND if you have some spare time coming up. Better yet, if READERS' DIGEST ever condenses it, go for it. That will probably be the best version of the story. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 8 Apr 1985 10:41:43-PST From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: BACHMAN/(KING) 'THE RUNNING MAN' I am going to review the early books by RICHARD BACHMAN (Stephen King) in installments over the next week or two, first 'The Running Man'. 'The Running Man': This novel is set in the U.S. of the future, actually I hope that the future turns out a little better than this. There is no social security or food stamps in this future, the only way that people in need can get help is to go on one of the government run television game shows. The TV or (FREE VEE) is provided as a service by the government, TV sets are given to everyone by the government. Most of the game shows are simply ways to make the contestants look like fools, maybe to cause them a little pain. But, the most popular show, (and the one with the biggest prizes) is called The Running Man. In this show the contestant gets $100 for each hour he is not caught by the game's hunters (caught means killed), the runner can go anywhere in the U.S. that he wants. If the runner makes it 30 days, he gets a large fortune, of course the record is 8 days, if the runner dies, the money he has earned goes to his family. There are some rules that make this game harder to win, first, the runner has to mail in two 15 minute video tapes every day to prove that he is still alive (of course the hunters cannot use the mail to track him with, the people who run the game promise the runners this !), second, these 15 minute tapes & still pictures of the runner are sent out every night on FreeVee during the games time slot. There are rewards for information about the runner available to the general public, and information leading to a kill merits a large reward. I liked the book, it does get slow in the last third of the story, but on the whole it moved pretty well. The main character is one of the runners, he has a sick daughter and he can't afford medical help. I don't want to say much more about the plot, as I think any more would spoil the book for anyone who does read it. As usual, King has done a fine job of character developement, and the vivid descriptions of the U.S. of the future are quite easy to picture. I would rate this book as a 7 (out of 10). I got this book in an English edition which as of last week was still in print. The other books were also available in the English editions, you might try having your favorite book store order them from england for you. Since the books are hard to find here, I don't think that they will stay in print in England for very long. KEN COBB ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Apr 85 00:33:44 CST From: P1904%UMVMA.BITNET@Berkeley (Jeff Little) Subject: Comment / Question I would just like to say that I am a very new subscriber to SF-Lovers and so far it has been very enjoyable. I started with Issue 107 and beeing so new to the digest I fell for the April fools issue 100%. After seeing the note in I109 about Star Trek 4, I was wondering if anyone out there has any real new info about it?? To my knowlege a new movie should be comming out 18 months after the last one. Jeff (P1904@UMVMA.BITNET) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Apr 85 00:33:44 CST From: P1904%UMVMA.BITNET@Berkeley (Jeff Little) Subject: Question Does anyone know when and if another Star Wars movie is in the works?? It seems like it is about time to hear something about it. Jeff (P1904@UMVMA.BITNET) ------------------------------ From: ritcv!krf7527@topaz.arpa (Keith Fieldhouse) Subject: Re: Silent Running Date: 3 Apr 85 23:31:07 GMT Another (perhaps) interesting bit of info about Silent Running. When Battlestar Galactica first came out, 20th Century Fox, the producers of Star Wars, initiated a lawsuit claiming that Galactica was essentially a copy of Star Wars (Or should I say A New Hope?). It seems that the cylons (remember them?) were just a little *too* much like silver Darth Vaders to sit well with Fox. The producers of BG (Paramount, I think) filed a counter suit claiming that Star Wars infringed on their movie, you guessed it, Silent Running. Apparently they felt that R2D2 was an awful lot like Huey, Luey, and Dewy from SR. I seem to recall that somewhere along the line, both suits went up in a puff of irrelevance. Does anybody know for sure what happened? I find the above rather ironic considering what was to become the deluge of SF films that followed the rather spectacular success of Star Wars. Fox wouldn't have had much time for anything if they tried to stop everybody who attempted to cash in on the success of SW. Keith Fieldhouse @ The Rochester Institute of Technology . . .rochester!ritcv!krf7527 ------------------------------ Subject: SILENT RUNNING From: ALS050%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (STEVE JOHNSON) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1985 09:41 EST This is in response to Mark Leeper's attack on Silent Running. The whole thing is academic , but, i just couldn't stand by and let a argument of that length ,based on an erroneous assumption, off scott free. Yes Mark, life could exist on earth without land plant life. Water covers about 7/10ths of this planet, and ocean plant life (mostly algae I believe) produces about 70 percent of our oxygen. Were it left at that our problem wouldn't be lack of oxygen (a 30 percent drop in the partial pressure of oxygen would not be dangerous to most people) but the increase in the partial pressure of CO2. Who could say what would happen if all plant life disappeared? I have an idea though that the ocean plant life would pick up the slack. More CO2 available, a general warming trend (brought on by the greenhouse effect), and an increase in the ocean surface area (caused by melting polar ice caps) would make ocean plant life more abundant and effective. There would be a lot of major changes on earth but homo s. would still have oxygen. I'm a cs/math person myself , so the above is based on common sense rather than a deep biological background. But I'm *sure* that if I have overlooked anything major that somebody will let me know about it. p.s. I enjoyed Silent Running despite its heavy emotional appeal. ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz.arpa (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: Trumbull Date: 7 Apr 85 04:38:20 GMT >> What's Trumbull doing today? > > Trumbull has at least two projects going. The first is a Showscan > process film for Expo 85 which is in Montreal, I believe. The > film is part of an amusement park ride: you are part of a > commercial space shuttle flight in the near future. Nobody else has said anything, so I suppose I'd better. Expo 85 isn't in Montreal; it's in Tsukuba, in Japan not too far from Tokyo. Expo 86, however, will be in Vancouver (which is at least in the same country as Montreal). The theme of Expo 85 is science and technology for man at home; the theme of Expo 86 will be transportation. Therefore it seems more likely that the Trumbull film talked about will be shown in Vancouver...especially since it is described as "in progress" and Expo 85 has already opened. Mark Brader in the same country at Montreal, whatever they say ------------------------------ From: wudma!ph@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: SF movie explosions Date: 7 Apr 85 20:50:01 GMT > Alastair Milne points out that the explosions in SILENT RUNNING > are instances of that rare thing, a convincing \in vacuo/ > explosion in an SF movie. Unfortunately, I can't think of even > ONE other example. Can anyone else? It's been a while since I've seen the flick, but I think I remember noticing at the time that the explosion of the asteroid in STTMP was fairly well done. --pH ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: SF movie explosions Date: 8 Apr 85 04:13:50 GMT > From: Mike Caplinger > > Alastair Milne points out that the explosions in SILENT RUNNING > are instances of that rare thing, a convincing \in vacuo/ > explosion in an SF movie. Unfortunately, I can't think of even > ONE other example. Can anyone else? A couple: (1) The "expulsion" of Dave Boman from the excursion pod in 2001 (2) Any explosion in Star Trek: the Motion Picture (3) The explosion of the klingon vessel in the Star Trek episode: Day of the Dove And that may be the complete list... ...it is something that has irritated me in the past also... Oh, and incidently: if the microphone recording an explosion in a vacuum is hit by a "puff" of expanding gas from the explosion, or a shock wave of more violent intensity, there will, in fact, be a noise... Also incidently: why are there so many explosions in space in all these movies anyway? --- just a thought... --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Apr 85 1100-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #118 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 118 Today's Topics: Books - Drake & Varley & Zelazny & A Request, Films - Silent Running (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Miss Manners & Author Support for Reagan's SDI & Computers in SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: BIRDS OF PREY by David Drake Date: 8 Apr 85 21:54:12 GMT BIRDS OF PREY by David Drake Baen, 1985, $7.95. A book review by Mark R. Leeper I've reviewed a number of books published by Bluejay Books of late. This time I have switched to a competitor in publishing trade paperbacks, Baen Books. David Drake is known for good military science fiction, I am told (by a friend who liked his HAMMER'S SLAMMERS). BIRDS OF PREY is sort of a change of pace for him. Instead of setting his story in the future, Drake sets it in the ancient past--"262 A.D.," the cover says, though I don't remember the date coming up in the story. The cover also says, "Roman courage against alien ferocity in a battle of the ages." Well, if you buy books for the blurbs, you deserve your $7.95 back. While BIRDS OF PREY is undeniably science fiction, that doesn't become really important to the plot until the last forty pages or so. For the most part, this is just a straight-forward historical novel. There is an encounter with an alien fairly early in the book, and another character is actually from the future, but these things don't affect the plot a whole lot in the first 80% of the book. The story just follows the adventures of Aulus Perennius, agent of Rome. As an adventure tale, pure and simple, the story really is not too bad, though some of the "clever" escapes from enemies in the story are predictable. The extended scenes of naval battles are quite good and have the feel of being well-researched. The language, however, seems a little less convincing. Romans keep using phrases like "the mission was scrubbed" or "for shit's sake..." Of course, I don't think anyone remembers how Romans swore, or doubts that they did, but the phrases used to swear, in particular, seem several hundred years out of place. As a science fiction novel, BIRDS OF PREY is somewhat less satisfying. It is a 350-page novel with less science fiction content than you would find in an average Dr. Who story. The presence of the aliens is not well explained, and considering their technological superiority, they are much too easily defeated. I can recommend BIRDS OF PREY as a pleasant reading experience even if it is rather inadequate as a science fiction story. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: bgsuvax!duncan@topaz.arpa (Comer Duncan) Subject: A Demon question Date: 8 Apr 85 01:26:56 GMT I am a John Varley fan ( Titan, Wizard, Demon, Millenium, etc.) and I have a question about the last book of the trilogy that started with Titan, Demon. I have seen it in the enlarged paperback size, and I am wondering if it is already in the regular paperback size. I am reading this series and want to fill out the trilogy, but don't want to pay more for an enlarged cover. If it isn't in the smaller size yet, I'd like to know whether it's going to be out soon. ------------------------------ From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herbert A Miller) Date: 8 Apr 1985 1827-EST (Monday) Subject: Trumps of Doom A while back (end of March?) somebody asked about Trumps of Doom. The story is told from the viewpoint of Merlin, Corwin's son who was introduced at the end of Courts of Chaos. SEMI-SPOILER: Corwin is not involved in the book, and is barely mentioned. The action takes place primarily on Earth, where Merlin is some kind of a Computer Systems Designer, and in Amber, where Random is ruling without open opposition. ------------------------------ From: ritcv!krf7527@topaz.arpa (Keith Fieldhouse) Subject: What is the name of this book? Date: 9 Apr 85 01:25:16 GMT Hello, The following is a plea for help. The book I am about to describe was read many years ago -- before I was really interested in SF. As such, I have no idea who wrote it or what its title is. The only thing I can provide, besides the rather shaky plot synopsis is the fact that it was published in a paperback version with a greenish cover. On to the plot: There are several reports of prehistoric "things" roaming around -- Dinosaurs, cavemen etc. A group of people decide to investigate (a fairly reasonable thing to do, I suppose). This group of people find a research laboratory which has actually created a miniature universe. Yup, that's right they started with an atom, put it in a tank, applied Big Bang and heated slowly or something like that. It turns out the prehistoric scenes are the result of some previously malfunctioning equipment projecting scenes from the little tiny worlds in the mini-universe all over the neighborhood. This of course scared the be-jabbers off the neighbors and off went our group. Well, the group gets a good chuckle out of all this especially when they find out that the scientists have some even better equipment. Now, if you concentrate real hard on one of the planets, you can enter the mind of one of its inhabitants. The middle portion of the book is taken up with our heroes having vicarious(sp?) adventures on the mini-planets. By the way, the development of the mini-universe is orders of magnitude faster than our own, so you can spend several months on a planet in only a few hours of "real" time. As this universe continues to advance, its inhabitants realize that it is finite (hemmed in by the tank). In fact, the mini-universe is about to collapse in on itself. The remainder of the book deals with some of the leaders of the mini-universe, in cahoots with some of the original group trying to "break free" against the wishes of the scientists. I won't spoil the ending in case someone is actually reading the book now. My question is this: Does *anyone* know the title and/or author of the book? Does anyone have a clue? I don't mean to indicate with my rather flippant description that it was a bad book. As I recall except for the rather errrr... interesting bits of science the book was very engrossing. Any help anyone can offer will be cause for great celebration on my part. I'll even name my kids after you. Nah, I'll name my goldfish after you. Thanks for your help Keith Fieldhouse @ The Rochester Institute of Technology {allegra | seismo}!rochester!ritcv!krf7527 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Apr 85 11:59 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Silent Running In regards to the comments about Silent Running: 60-90% of the oxygen-producing plants on Earth are plankton and algae in the oceans. The loss of the land-bound plants would be a severe strain on the ecosystem, but not totally devastating. Personally, I enjoyed Silent Running, but I feel that it had some weaknesses that have been explored. I did not think it was totally unrealistic. Brett Slocum (ARPA : Slocum@HI-MULTICS ) (UUCP : ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum ) ------------------------------ From: watrose!ajlill@topaz.arpa (Tony Lill) Subject: Re: Silent Running Date: 8 Apr 85 19:17:42 GMT >It seems that the cylons (remember them?) were just a little *too* >much like silver Darth Vaders to sit well with Fox. The producers >of BG (Paramount, I think) filed a counter suit claiming that Star >Wars infringed on their movie, you guessed it, Silent Running. >Apparently they felt that R2D2 was an awful lot like Huey, Luey, >and Dewy from SR. No wonder that BG used the ships from Silent running as part of the fleet. I also noticed that the interior of the Vipers and the interior of the Starfighter from Buck Rogers (yes I still watch that show every weekend) are very similar. Same producers no doubt. Hmmm, maybe Fox was justified.... Tony Lill 539 Grand Valley Dr. Cambridge, Ont., Canada 1-519-653-9735 {allegra,linus,decvax,utzoo}!watmath!watrose!ajlill ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Silent Running (**Spoilers**) Date: 09 Apr 85 00:01:40 PST (Tue) From: Alastair Milne > The recent mention of Silent Running prompts me to post some > comments about the film -- I get annoyed about these elements in > the plot every time I see it. First off, Dern (I don't recall > the character's name, so I'll use the actor's) is very concerned > with the fate of the plants and animals in the eco-domes. He > goes berserk when Earth orders them destroyed. So what does he > do? He DESTROYS most of them, just in order to kill off the > other crewmen! This is ridiculous! He does *not* go berserk (and the character's name is Freeman Lowell). He is deeply hurt; but his response is suppressed anger (he is introverted anyway), even withdrawal. He is in one of the last domes, furiously working, as most of the others are destroyed. What is going to do? Argue all of Earth into recanting? He would sooner be alone. But when it comes time to destroy the dome he's in, his temper breaks, and he fights back. He kills one of the other 3 men in a fight with a shovel, and he traps the remaining 2 in one of the other domes before it is blown up. But he is bady disturbed by having done so, and never gets over it. Destroys "MOST" of them??? He personally destroys *ONE*, among all that the others have destroyed. It is true that, in the end, only one dome survives. But that is because he has only one drone he can program to care for it. Perhaps he might have jettisoned all the others, to give them a chance, before he destroyed the ship; but again, perhaps the thought of leaving all the animals untended, unfed in their park environment seems more cruel to him than giving them the quickest, cleanest end possible. > Secondly, then what does he do? He heads out, away from the sun, > so that the plants die off and the stuff in the remaining > dome(s?) freezes. He could have selected an orbit that put him > on the opposite side of the sun from earth, still shielded from > them but allowing the sunlight to keep the dome contents alive. > He doesn't. The heading of the ships was no doing of his. That was preset. He was part of a fleet that was already well under way. Nor could he take any massive evasive action, because most of the fleet was still there, and they would pursue him (thinking he needed help, of course). The ships were equipped to provide light and heat for the forests well beyond the range where the sun would do any good. But in his anger over Earth's decision, and guilt over killing his companions (to mention just a couple), he forgot this until his memory was jogged, thinking rather about blights and diseases. And how would you do, essentially alone on a huge ship, out beyond Saturn? And, although it really doesn't matter, it seems to me you haven't thought about the mind-boggling distances involved. To get to the other side of Earth's orbit, just from Earth, never mind near Saturn, is 192 million miles. Care to think about how long it would take him to get there, and what the other ships in the fleet (who would be watching him all the time) would be doing? Besides, he would probably have made the same final choice that he did whether he was opposite Earth or beyond Saturn. > Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed. > They could have called back the crew, and Dern could have chosen > to stay as a hermit or whatever, and the ships could have orbited > endlessly at no cost to Earth. The reason was that they (the forests) simply weren't wanted: nobody gave a damn about them, except for Lowell, and maybe some few like him. Nor do I think Lowell wanted to be a hermit. He just wanted to keep away from his loud, devil-may-care, who-gives-a-damn companions on the ship. And even if the ships could have orbited endlessly at no cost (and I'll believe that when I see it), the reason for the decision to dump the forests was that they wanted the ships back, to do something "useful" (one assumes this means "profitable"). It's not that they wanted to put the forestry somewhere else: it's that they didn't want it at all. > This sort of basic plot failure spoils what could otherwise be a > really enjoyable movie. I certainly agree that basic plot failures do spoil potentially good movies: you sit there thinking: "there's no reason for this story to have happened". But I hardly think the complaint applies to "Silent Running". Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Fri 5 Apr 85 15:09:17-PST From: Ron Cain Subject: Austenites I respond to Jody Patilla's plea ("Austenites unite!"). Jane Austen wrote some of the finest novels I have read, and I probably wore out my welcome on this BBOARD some months back complaining about the majority of SF stories not even coming close to her characterization and eloquence. I like SF, don't misunderstand, but why oh why can't most of today's writers share some of her love of words. Comparing Miss Manners to her struck me as odd at first, but then I realized there were, indeed, similarities in the narrative voice. For those who have not yet read "Miss Manner's Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior," I recommend you get a copy and at least browse. You would be surprised how simple manners can be. ... ron cain (sri-ai) ------------------------------ From: reed!wab@topaz.arpa (William Baker) Subject: Robert Heinlein and SDI Date: 7 Apr 85 22:39:35 GMT I was reading somewheres that President Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative, .i.e. "Star Wars", had split a great many interest groups, including science fiction writers. The article said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the initiative and Robert Heinlein for it. I knew that Heinlein was still writing, but I didn't know that he was still politically active as he was in the 50's and 60's. Has anyone seen an article with such statements attributed to him? If so, I would certainly like a pointer to it. I am not surprised that he would take such a stand, but he has been misquoted in the past and I would like to see just what it was that he said. Bill Baker tektronix!reed!wab ------------------------------ From: hpcnoa!dat@topaz.arpa (dat) Subject: computer SF? Date: 2 Apr 85 17:32:00 GMT This might be treading on old ground, but I'm curious what people think is the best SF book (or story) they've read that has a computer as the main 'character' or an integral part of the story... I'll wait to post my favorites... Dave Taylor ------------------------------ From: solar!alan@topaz.arpa (A.LIGHT) Subject: Computers in SF Date: 8 Apr 85 20:51:28 GMT My favorite movie which featured computers has got to be Colosus: The Forbin Project. If you get a chance to see it (It's on TV pretty often) it is well worth your time. One point of honorable mention: Credit has got to go to the writers of the movie Alien. It was one of the first movies which featured a computer where you had to use a terminal to talk to the dammed thing! While we are on the subject, books, movies, and TV shows usually had a name for the computers they featured. We all know that the computer in 2001 was named HAL. But how about the names of the computers in the following: 1. The TV show "I Dream of Jeanne" 2. Alien 3. Rollerball 4. Wargames 5. The Asimov short story "The Last Question" ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Apr 85 0913-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #119 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 119 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Varley & Some Reviews & A Request Answered, Films - Night of the Zombies & Silent Running (3 msgs) & Ladyhawke & Invasion of the Star Creatures ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 9 Apr 85 09:48:19-PST From: Jackie Subject: Speaking of Harlan... Cc: ploetz%ECLD@ECLA The movie A Boy and His Dog was playing in my neighborhood this weekend so, after hearing so much about it here on the net, I decided to go see it. Now, if you people had TOLD me I would get to see my favorite Miami vice, Sonny Crockett--well I would have gone to see this long ago. Seriously, I thought it was a well-done, fast-paced little flick true to the Ellison ironical mode. This movie, I might add, "watched" very much like a short story (fast pace, clever dialogue, ends with a twist...). If any of you personally know any writers you may recognize the following phenomena: you know the person and what they sound like and you read one of their publised works--be it a book, magazine or newspaper article AND you find yourself reading it "in their voice." That is, you "hear" the story in their voice, with their inflections and intonations. Well, I found myself experiencing the opposite of this with this movie. I don't know Harlan Ellison--but I have read one of his short stories (Repent, Harlequin...which I really enjoyed!) and many of his columns for the L.A.Weekly and I have even seen a videotaped interview with himself. Maybe its just that he has a very recognizable style... Anyway, this movie was in a double-feature with Repo-man, (I guess R-M doesn't really qualify as SF, but it was how shall we say, intense (and filmed in my neighborhood!)). A real fun evening! ------------------------------ From: ihu1g!rls@topaz.arpa (r.l. schieve) Subject: Re: A Demon question Date: 9 Apr 85 13:29:52 GMT > I am a John Varley fan ( Titan, Wizard, Demon, Millenium, etc.) > and I have a question about the last book of the trilogy that > started with Titan, Demon. I have seen it in the enlarged > paperback size, and I am wondering if it is already in the > regular paperback size. I am reading this series and want to fill > out the trilogy, but don't want to pay more for an enlarged > cover. If it isn't in the smaller size yet, I'd like to know > whether it's going to be out soon. The infamous trade paper back. Too bad another science fiction author has begun using a bad Frank Herbert ploy. Rick Schieve ------------------------------ From: ahutb!dls@topaz.arpa (d.l.skran) Subject: White Rose, To Reign in Hell, Cross the Stars Date: 9 Apr 85 22:55:35 GMT An April Vacation's Reading By Dale Skran Over my Easter vacation, I read three new books. As I have found more and more of late, I enjoyed the two fantasy volumes more than the science fiction. To Reign In Hell by Steven Brust This book deserves the accolades bestowed on it by Rogar Zelazny in the forward - "engaging story with consummate grace and genuine artistry." The story follows the events in Heaven that led to the falling out between Satan and Yaweh. Although less than convincing as theology, as a tale of gods who are men, TO REIGN IN HELL must be placed with LORD OF LIGHT as a masterwork. Brust's writing has much to offer: beautiful language, rich characters, a haunting ring of truth, and a larger significance. At the end, I lusted for Lilith, respected Satan, and pitied Yaweh. Their final battle and ultimate destiny is at once unexpected and plausible. Cross the Stars by David Drake Drake continues the chronicles of "Hammers Slammers," a mercenary outfit in the Pournelle tradition with this tale of a future Odysseus on an interstellar Odyssey as a retiring "Slammer," Don Slade, journeys homeward. Although episodic, the story rolls right along, keeping the reader interested in what might have been, in other hands, an unremarkable tale of a big strong man. The ideas in CROSS THE STARS may be less than innovative(although I believe the method of propulsion used by the Alayans is new), but Drake puts the bite on the reader as Slade gets into tough spots and tougher moral choices. The White Rose by Glen Cook The WHITE ROSE shares with CROSS THE STARS the distinction of being a tale of a mercenary company forced into tough spots and tougher decisions. Cook's Black Company will linger long in the annals of F&SF warriors. The WHITE ROSE concludes what may(or may not)be a trilogy(THE BLACK COMPANY, THE SHADOWS LINGER, and THE WHITE ROSE) chronicling how the Black Company came to serve the Lady in her war with the rebel, how the rebel was defeated, how the Dominator rose from the grave only to be put down by the Lady, and how to save Darling the Black Company turned against the Lady. I consider Cook's series to be many cuts above standard fantasy fare. Cook writes honestly about hard men facing tough choices, and doesn't gloss over the grim face of war or allow easy(Dorsi style) victories for the good guys. Best of all, he has created two of the strongest female characters in fantasy, Darling and the Lady. The Lady is a fit successor to Weinbaum's Black Flame, an immortal sorceress, powerful beyond human ken, yet dogged by a spark of humanity. She finds her nemesis in Darling(The White Rose), a "magic null" who fuels her suburb generalship with driving hate. Told by the Black Company's doctor and annalist, Croaker, THE WHITE ROSE is by far the best of the series, and the others are good! Among these and other strong characters Cook builds a fantasy world that includes the Barrowland and the Plain of Fear, the wind whales and Toad Killer Dog, Soulcatcher and the Limper. Perhaps a preference for fantasy comes with age, as I recently turned 27, but I recommend the entire Black Company series strongly to anyone who enjoyed the Slammers or John Christian Falkenberg, and also to anyone who hates cute unicorn fantasy and loves dark, mysterious, tortured women with a soft spot that leads them to a glorious destiny. I also recommend TO REIGN IN HELL to anyone who enjoyed LORD OF LIGHT. Neither book is perfect - the characters in TO REIGN IN HELL may be overly monothematic, and the ending of THE WHITE ROSE may or may not be consistent with the magic used up to that point in the series, but I couldn't put either one down once I got started. Both of these books make Power's ANUBIS GATES seem pale. Power has action and ideas. Brust and Cook add character, passion, pain, and a shuddering glimpse of the final evil. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 07:23:31-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Miniature Universe To: "ritcv!krf7527@topaz.arpa"@TL-20B.ARPA The novel with the dinosaurs, miniature universe &c is David Grinnell : Edge of Time Ace pb M-162 No ISBN since originally published in 1958! My copy also has the green cover with black rocketlike things and a female figure holding a large glowing white beachball (or universe). The science is really wacky, but I like the story anyway Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: NIGHT OF THE ZOMBIES (non-spoiler -- uit came pre-spoiled) Date: 8 Apr 85 21:55:46 GMT NIGHT OF THE ZOMBIES A film review by Mark R. Leeper Ever since DAWN OF THE DEAD turned out to be a box office bonanza in Europe, the dead have not rested easily in Italy. Virtually anything seems to wake them up--industrial wastes, voodoo, mad scientific experiments, air pollution, And they always wake up with the munchies for those of us who are still alive. In NIGHT OF THE ZOMBIES the wakeup call comes from nuclear radiation. Some sort of weird experimental radiation is released from a reactor. And suddenly there are a bunch of dead people whose faces have turned black and who are walking around with a gait resembling the Frankenstein monster looking for human snacks. Now if that premise sounds absurd, wait till you hear the next one. This all takes place in New Guinea, where an American SWAT team is vacationing together en masse--without families or friends outside the team--but with their uniforms and their guns. There they run into a glamorous TV reporter who enjoys running bare-breasted while communing with native tribesmen. Not that it has much to do with the plot; there isn't one. The film is just a string of attacks by black-faced zombies. At the conclusion, there is a minor surprise ending that makes no sense. The film is directed by someone hiding behind the name Vincent Dawn. (Somebody ought to compile a cross-reference of Italian horror film directors and the Anglicized names they use.) In any case, this is not the Lucio Fulci NIGHT OF THE ZOMBIES, but the Vincent Dawn film of the same name. Not much entertainment value here. Rate it -2 on the -4 to +4 scale. No surprise there, I guess. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!ahuta!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Apr 85 09:06 PST From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: "Silent Running" Cc: cvl!hsu@topaz.ARPA (Dave Hsu) >> 2) How do the drones work? > By this, what do you mean? The legless child actors inside? > > dave Yes, I keep forgeting that I'm dealing with sci-fi fans who know all this stuff It was a surprise to me when I found out that the drones were actors in costume. Wendel ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 85 13:23:35 EST From: Jon Trudel Subject: Silent Running explained >...He DESTROYS most of them, just in order to kill off the other >crewmen! This is ridiculous! Well, I could go on about this, but I will condense it for my sake. I made a similar argument about Dr Heywood Floyd in 2010 when he shouted "Hurry!" You must realize, as I eventually did, is that people do not react logically in times of extreme crisis. Apparently, Dern's state of mind was NOT sound, since his "livelihood" was literally going out the door. How would you react of your boss told you you could NEVER use your computer again? Do you think your resulting reaction would be ridiculous? Extreme perhaps, but not ridiculous. (this is a bad analogy, so no flames about it, please) >... He heads out, away from the sun, so that the plants die off and >the stuff in the remaining dome(s?) freezes... I will not debate the ethics of this move, because there are none. Consider the 20-whateverth century, when there is only a miniscule smattering of plants and animals. Horticulture is virtually non-existent, and there is only one person who takes care of any plants, Dern. He obviously didn't remember everything there is to know about the subject, and had no idea of the consequences of placing the plants far from sunlight. >Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed. >... and the ships could have orbited endlessly at no cost to Earth. A good answer, but completely wrong. The ships were cargo vessels that were orbiting idly. The decision to destroy the pods was a business move. It was decided that the ships could be better used for what they were designed, and that was to carry cargo to Earth colonies, and I remember seeing the logo of American Airlines on the side of the ship (Valley Forge?). As for a reason, do you think that the shrewd businessman of the 20-whateverth century would tie up several of his most valuable transport ships by having them hold a 'useless' cargo that brings no monetary gains? Not bloody likely! I still maintain that this is one of the best SF films I have seen, and if you don't read in my personal preference qualifier there, too bad. Like Nyssa of Traken, I too cried at the end. (I was young and gullible once...) Jonathan D. Trudel ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 85 16:45:10 EST From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: re: Silent Running (Spoilers) First, Dern (I can't remember the character's name either) saw himself in a life or death struggle: him and the plants against the rest of the crew. He blew up exactly one dome. All of the others except the one that survives were blown up by the other members of the crew. Second, the plan was to get lost going through the rings of Saturn. He would have been tracked to the other side of the Earth and "rescued." Sure, we all realize that getting further from the sun is going to cut down the sunlight needed by the plants. (It was the sunlight, not the cold, that was the problem. The climate was maintained by machinery.) I'm not sure I would think of it if I were in a similar situation. Living in a spaceship for months on end, I suspect one would tend to forget about there being anything good outside the spaceship. But, Christ, with my leg badly hurt and stealing a spaceship, I doubt I'd be very rational even if I thought of the fact that the plants need the sun to be a given distance away. Third, the actual reason for the destruction of the forests was that the government stopped paying rental for the spaceships. The company that owned them wanted them back. They were actually freighters and, presumably, there was plenty of freight to be dragged around. I, too, think this is the only SF movie I've seen that made me cry. I was about 25, though, not 11. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Apr 85 12:48:22 PST From: geacc022%timevx@cit-hamlet.arpa Subject: Ladyhawke I saw a "sneak" preview of Ladyhawke last weekend (some sneak, they ran large ads in the LA Times) and thought I'd pass some comments on. I had really mixed feelings about this movie. I liked the story idea, but I kept getting annoyed at the film makers. Example: Through the whole first hour of the movie, the viewer is gradually shown the curse and what it's done to these two people. Then, halfway through the movie, we sit down and have some expository dialogue to explain exactly what the situation is, how it happened, and what's likely to happen next. Since I went in to the movie knowing the basic premise (I think most people already know, and I won't spoil it for those who don't), I kept saying to myself, come on, let's get the prologue over with and start some action. There are one or two very nice examples of the Movie Multiple Fight Sequence, where the bad guys come after the good guy *one at a time* until we run out of bad guys. Still, I wanted very much to give this movie some good words. It is a nice story, even if the ending is predictable, and the characters become likable after a while. The scenery struck me as very medieval (but I'm not an expert). I suppose my short answer to the question "Did you like the movie?" is "Yes, BUT..." Gary Ansok GEACC022%TIMEVX @ CIT-HAMLET.ARPA GEA @ CALTECH.BITNET ...ucbvax!cithep!timevx#geacc022 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Apr 85 14:55 PST From: Provan@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Invasion of the Star Creatures It's settled now: I just saw *THE* worst SF movie of all time. It's a 1963 movie called "Invasion of the Star Creatures." It was every bit as bad as "Plan 9 from Outer Space" except it was *trying* to be funny. It ends up being sorta meta-stupid: trying to be stupid and being stupid about it. It was sorta funny in a Zen way. Nothing was really funny, but I had to laugh at myself for watching it through to the end. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Apr 85 1011-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #120 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 120 Today's Topics: Books - Dick & Heinlein & Varley, Films - Silent Running (6 msgs), Miscellaneous - Computers in SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 85 10:05:38 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Philip K. Dick Someone in #115 (I'm sorry, but I forget who; I still haven't figured out the UNIX mail command, so I don't have the Digest lying around on my screen) asked about the soon-to-be rerelease of Philip Dick's _In_Milton_Lumky_ _Territory_. Quickly dredging out my copy of _Philip_K._Dick:_In_His_Own_Words (Gregg Rickman; Long Beach CA, Fragments West/the Valentine Press, 1984), a fantastic, indispensable work for anyone `into' Philip Dick : GR: It is my understanding that you quit writing for a year in 1960-1961 out of frustration that your best works weren't being printed -- your mainstream, literary novels, like _Confessions_of_ _a_Crap_Artist_. Did you have other mainstream novels you were trying to sell? PKD: Would you believe 13? Some as long as 600 pages. Slave labor. . . . Most of those were written around the time I started selling, like 1951, '52, '53. Most of them are really fairly early. . . . PKD: _In_Milton_Lumky_Territory_ -- that's about a salesman, by and large a rehash of Arthur Miller's _Death_of_a_ Salesman_, which had influenced me enormously ideologically. The whole thing "attention must be paid to this man," that fitted my ideology exactly, that was completely how I felt. There was great dignity in this salesman, there was great dignity in his aging and suffering and death. . . No explicit list of the mainstream novels is given in the book, but I found references to these: Confessions of a Crap Artist [published in 1975] The Man Whose Teeth Were All Exactly Alike [published 1984 by Mark Ziesling] In Milton Lumky Territory [to be published by Dragon Press] Puttering About in a Small Land [published Academy Chicago] Mary and the Giant [unpublished] Gather Yourselves Together [unpublished] The Broken Bubble of Thisbe Holt [unpublished. "It's just a bad book"-PKD] Voices From the Street [unpublished. This is the 600-page one] A Time For George Stavros [unpublished] Nicholas and the Higs [unpublished] I recommend _...In_His_Own_Words very highly to any PKD enthusiast. It contains a short biography, an essay by Rickman which attempts to classify Dick's novels into four periods, and a long series of interviews (often more like conversations) with Dick about his feelings, life, and written work. The publisher is undoubtedly obscure (I picked up the book at a bookstore / comics shop in Long Beach), but you may be able to persuade a bookstore to order it. --Peter Alfke (jpa144@cit-vax) ------------------------------ From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit) Subject: NofTheBeast - True STINKER Date: 10 Apr 85 15:41:00 GMT The Number of the Beast Attn.: Sci-Fi General advises that DANGER to mental health increases with amount of NoftB read. There was some discussion of the NoftB on this network, and here is my 2-cents' worth: This book is probably the most pretentious, most time wasting book I have EVER read, and it is probably the only book (in any subject matter) that I have ever thrown into the garbage chute. I must admit that I was having a great time during the first hundred or so pages. Later, my enjoyment turned into nightmare as the characters began screaming at each other "pipe down" every page, and began to display an I.Q. level of 270, happily traveling on the yellow brick road. Heinlein created a tight situation; he also invented a super human capability for one of his characters to deal with the situation. The characters, now truly bloated smart-ass- genius-prodigy-philosophers, talk in phrases that would put the best of Superman comics to shame. The pseudo-philosophical quips and pieces of whizdom that were enjoyable in "Time Enough For Love", are completely out-of-order here, and make as much sense as the blurbs of a loonie who had one too much to drink. Having read SF books from all parts of the spectrum, [Brunner, Lem, Asimov, Clarke, Sheckley, Farmer, Pohl, Ellison, Niven, A.D. Foster, P.K. Dick, Hogan, R. Forward, D. Adams, Varley etc.], I consider this book an insult to SF readership's intelligence and sensibilities, and it should be avoided. I had the expectation of something as good as "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" or "Time Enough for Love". I forgot that very few SF writers can live up to their name consistently. So, close your eyes in your favorite book store, and grab a SF book at random. The probability is that you will get something better than NoftB. Oz Electric: {ihnp4|decvax|..}!{utzoo|utcs}!yetti!oz ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: A Demon question Date: 10 Apr 85 18:50:35 GMT > The infamous trade paper back. Too bad another science fiction > author has begun using a bad Frank Herbert ploy. > > Rick Schieve Wait a minute. I agree with you about trade paperbacks, but... **FLAME ON** DON'T BLAME THE AUTHOR FOR THE PACKAGING OF HIS BOOK!!! **FLAME OFF** ------------------------------ From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Silent Running Date: 9 Apr 85 19:28:03 GMT Just want to add my 'no' vote to M.R. Leeper's on SILENT RUNNING. Yes, I thought the robots were adorable; yes, the SFX were good, and pretty; yes, Joan Baez is a great singer and a fine lady; yes, forests and cuddly animals are very nice; but I find myself unable to like any movie whose story makes as little sense as did SR. I doubt if Watt, himself, could trivialize the need for protection of our environment as thoroughly as the film did. Fatuous and stupid. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 85 03:36:52 PST From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: Silent Running and loss of oxygen > sad if these things were gone. Friend, it wouldn't be sad 'cause > you need oxygen to be sad. You ain't got oxygen, you ain't gonna > be around to miss the chipmunks. .... (I really expect someone > to pop up at this point and say that maybe the Earthlings are > getting their oxygen from moss or something. You are correct. I believe something like 80-90% of the O2 production at the moment is due to green stuff in the oceans. Not moss, not anything else on land, there isn't enough of it (though for sure, every bit will help if things get iffy -- as in ORA:CLE). But there is a *LOT* of plankton and similar beasties out there. Remember, about three-quarters (is that the right ratio?) of the Earth's surface is ocean rather than land. > Even in the dubious possibility that a stable eco-system is > possible based on other sources of oxygen, you can't get there > from here without a whole lot of disruption that would probably > kill off old Homo Saps anyway.) Well, as I said, I don't think it's that dubious. But I have to agree. Removing forests will cause us to lose a lot of topsoil immediately and knock great gaping holes in the ecosystem in other ways I'm sure -- is there an ecologist out there who can elaborate for us? der Mouse {ihnp4,decvax,...}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse ------------------------------ From: uwvax!derek@topaz.arpa (Derek Zahn) Subject: Re: Silent Running Date: 10 Apr 85 08:53:32 GMT I cast a 'yea' vote for 'Silent Running' as one of the best SF movies I've seen. What impressed me was not the robots or the special effects or any of that stuff. What impressed me was the simple, thoughtful, and meaningful theme (overdone? perhaps). It is for the same reason that I liked Rollerball (sue me) -- it differed from the standard 'shoot-em-up' western ripoffs. Derek Zahn @ wisconsin {allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,sfwin,ucbvax,uwm-evax}!uwvax!derek derek@wisc-rsch.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 10 Apr 1985 08:02:00-PST From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Randy Dearborn, Principal From: Graphic Designer, DTN 264-5090) Subject: Picking Silent Running to Death > He could have selected an orbit that put him on the opposite side > of the sun from earth, still shielded from them but allowing the > sunlight to keep the dome contents alive. He doesn't. The government did studies several years ago, called PROJECT CLARION to investigate the possibility of a planet hiding on the other side of the sun. They quickly discovered that if one was there, it would become visible within only a few years time. The gravitational pull from the other planets would have enough effect to keep both our orbits slightly different. If each planet had a duplicate, this would not be the case. (This also punches a hole in the plot of JOURNEY TO THE FAR SIDE OF THE SUN.) Also, it would be difficult to "hide" behind the sun when there are space freighters zooming all over the solar system. > Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed. > They could have called back the crew, and Dern could have chosen > to stay as a hermit or whatever, and the ships could have orbited > endlessly at no cost to Earth. Yes, the domes could have drifted on without cost. The American Airlines ships they were attached to were designed for cargo transport, a more profitable venture. I'm sure AA wasn't concerned about the 'value' of the crew, only their hefty investment in the freighters and their commercial cargo (and a lot of that was cast into space by Dern as an attempt to bluff the other cargo ships into thinking that his ship was damaged). But alas, the ships eventually were sold by AA to Glen Larson, only to appear as the "Agro Ships" on BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. I guess that nothing is sacred. > 2) How do the drones work? > By this, what do you mean? The legless child actors inside? They were legless ADULTS. Randy Dearborn DEC Merrimack, NH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 85 16:35 PST From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Silent Running, Battlestar Galaticia. Buck Rogers >>It seems that the cylons (remember them?) were just a little *too* >>much like silver Darth Vaders to sit well with Fox. The producers >>of BG (Paramount, I think) filed a counter suit claiming that Star >>Wars infringed on their movie, you guessed it, Silent Running. >>Apparently they felt that R2D2 was an awful lot like Huey, Luey, >>and Dewy from SR. > >No wonder that BG used the ships from Silent running as part of the >fleet. I also noticed that the interior of the Vipers and the >interior of the Starfighter from Buck Rogers (yes I still watch >that show every weekend) are very similar. Same producers no >doubt. Battlestar Galatcica and Buck Rogers were both filmed and produced at Universal Studios. (In fact if you ever visit there you will still see sets used in both shows.) Douglas Trumbul, if memory serves correctly did the specical effects on all three movies, (Battlestar G, Buck Rogers, Silent Running). Universal probably got the footage from SR from him to use in Battlestar. I'm guessing at this. Wendel ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 22:10:40-EST From: Larry Seiler Subject: Silent Walking, Crawling, or Limping I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who disliked Silent Running. Those cute robots with the silly names... Maybe I'd like it better if I saw it again, I don't know. Maybe we should make a category for movies that grab at the emotions but have little real content. (I would nominate Flashdance and Raiders of the Lost Ark to this category - and I liked these movies, at least the first time). Larry ------------------------------ Date: 9 Apr 85 11:02:14 PST (Tuesday) From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Computer SF Digest In case anyone has forgotten, some time ago I requested recommendations for Computer Science Fiction. The results are below. I'd like to thank everyone who contributed: I was quite astounded by the response. I had no idea there were so many CSF stories. On the other hand, many of the following DO NOT have computers as their central theme (or character), but rather mention them in passing. The "i" marks after each name indicated the number of "votes" for each title. This list is in no particular order (well, maybe Novels, and then everything else). SHOCKWAVE RIDER - J. Brunner - iiii Colossus Trilogy - D.F. Jones - ii NEUROMANCER - W. Gibson - iii -- Short story in Omni years ago same universe VALENTINA (SOUL IN SAPHIRE) - J. Delaney & M. Stiegler - iiii -- about Adolesence of P1 calliber. THE TWO FACES OF TOMORROW - J.P. Hogan - iiii -- See also -- but there are also interesting CS speculations in -- "The Genesis Machine", "Voyage from Yesteryear", and -- "Code of the Life Maker"; in "Thrice Upon a Time", -- systems programming plays an important part in the story, -- but there is no speculation; THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS - R. Heinlein - iii THE ADOLESCENCE OF P-1 - ??? - i "Dumb Waiter" - Walter Miller - i "Press Enter" - John Varley - i "Dead Stones?" - Gene Wolfe - i TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON - R. MacAvoy - i SOFTWARE - R. Rucker - i -- sounds like a robot story BUGS - T. Roszak - i COMPUTERWORLD - A. E. Van Vogt - i THE COSMIC COMPUTER - H. Beam Piper - i THE INTEGRATED MAN - M. Berlyn - i MOUTHPIECE - E. Wellen - i -- Thanks to JimDay.pasa for this exhaustive list "The Evitable Conflict" (1950) - ASIMOV, ISAAC - i "The Last Question" (1956) - ASIMOV, ISAAC - i "The Life and Times of MULTIVAC" (1975) - ASIMOV, ISAAC - i MIDSUMMER CENTURY [1968] - BLISH, JAMES - i "The Man Who Hated Machines" (1957) - BOULLE, PIERRE - i CATCHWORLD [1975] - BOYCE, CHRIS - i "Paradise and Iron" (1930) - BREUER, MILES J. - i "Answer" (1954) - BROWN, FREDRIC - i MICHAELMAS [1977] - BUDRYS, ALGIS - i LARGER THAN LIFE [1960] - BUZZATI, DINO - i THE GOD MACHINE [1968] - CAIDIN, MARTIN - i "The Metal Horde" (1930) - CAMPBELL, JOHN W., Jr. - i "The Nine Billion Names of God" (1953) - CLARKE, ARTHUR C. - i THE FOREVER MACHINE [1957] - CLIFTON, MARK & FRANK RILEY - i THE ELECTRIC CROCODILE [1970] - COMPTON, D.G. - i SCIENCE FICTION THINKING MACHINES [1954] - CONKLIN, GROFF, ed. - i VULCAN'S HAMMER [1960] - DICK, PHILIP K. - i "Computers Don't Argue" (1965) - DICKSON, GORDON R. - i "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" (1967) - ELLISON, HARLAN - i THE NOVEL COMPUTER [1966] - ESCARPIT, ROBERT - i THE TIN MEN [1965] - FRAYN, MICHAEL - i "The Metal Giants" (1928) - HAMILTON, EDMOND - i THE RING OF RITORNEL [1968] - HARNESS, CHARLES - i DESTINATION: VOID [1966] - HERBERT, FRANK - i THE GREAT COMPUTER [1966] - JOHANNESSON, OLOF - i ARRIVE AT EASTERWINE [1971] - LAFFERTY, R.A. - i THIS PERFECT DAY [1970] - LEVIN, IRA - i "The Ablest Man in the World" (1879) - MITCHELL, EDWARD PAGE - i MAN PLUS [1976] - POHL, FREDERIK - i TOMORROW SOMETIMES COMES [1951] - RAYER, FRANCIS G. - i "Going Down Smooth" (1968) - SILVERBERG, ROBERT - i "The Machine" (1935) - STUART, DON A. (aka John W. Campbell, Jr.) -i COMPUTERS, COMPUTERS, COMPUTERS: IN FICTION AND IN VERSE [1977] - VAN TASSEL, DENNIE, ed. - i NUNQUAM [1979] - L. Durrell - i TUNC [1979] - L. Durrell - i ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Apr 85 1039-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #121 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 121 Today's Topics: Books - King (2 msgs) & Book Request, Films - Silent Running (2 msgs) & Bakshi & Ladyhawke & Trumbull, Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban) Subject: Re: Stephen King Date: 10 Apr 85 13:21:35 GMT For the sake of clarification, the King book we are talking about is "The DARK Tower", not "The BLACK Tower". As to its availability, I think it originally had 10,000 copies in print. When "Pet Sematary" was published, "The Dark Tower" was included in the list of books by King printed in the front of the book. The demand for the book was so great that an additional printing of 10,000 copies was made. As far as I know, there will be no further reprintings, so good luck in finding a copy (I'm not giving up mine!) I don't mean to get anyone's hopes up, but there was never supposed to be a second printing of the book, but it happened anyway. Also, there was a reprinting of "Cycle of the Werewolf" recently by New American Library, while my understanding was that the edition put out by the Land of Enchantment Press was to be the only one. Call it greed or public demand, there have been efforts to make King's less mainstream works available to the public, though I doubt if mass market editions of "The Dark Tower" are on the horizon. Try your local library, or a used/rare bookstore. Rick Urban AT&T Network Systems Columbus, Ohio ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu P. S. Some people have asked me where I get my information. Well, let's see: Time, Newsweek, USA Today, The New York Times, Publishers Weekly, Library Journal, The West Coast Review of Books, Variety, The Hollywood Reporter, Starlog, Fangoria, Cinefantastique, Starburst, Booklist, Viking Books, New American Library, Putnam Publishing Group, Douglas Winter's "Stephen King: The Art of Darkness", Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine, Forthcoming Books in Print, Jerry Boyajian, and any other miscellaneous publication or person I come across who can provide me with arcane bits of information, about Stephen King or anything else! ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 11 Apr 1985 06:42:08-PST From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: RESPONSE TO KING NEW IN VOL 10, 117 RESPONSE TO LATEST KING NEWS. Books: 1) "Skeleton Crew" has already been recieved by LOCUS to review, this usually indicates that the book will hit the stands during that month. The last publication date I have seen was for MAY. 2) The un-cut version of "The Stand" has been postponed according to "CASTLE ROCK (The Stephen King Newsletter)". This project may be done later, but, maybe not at all. 4) As for "The Drawing of the Four" (Dark Tower # 2), The rough draft was complete over a year ago and was going into rewrite. "CASTLE ROCK" is a newsletter put out monthly (since Jan. 85) by Stephen King's personal secretary Stephanie. For information write: CASTLE ROCK BOX 8183 BANGOR, ME 04401 KEN ------------------------------ From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herbert A Miller) Date: 10 Apr 1985 1046-EST (Wednesday) Subject: Anybody know this one? I'm searching for a story that I read several years ago, but I don't remember its name, or the author's name. The basic plot (as well as I can remember) follows: Son is about to leave home - asks Dad about Mom who died shortly after he was born. Turns out Dad and Mom met when Dad crash-landed on her previously unexplored planet. Not only that, but everyone there had wings, since this was a property of the atmosphere and not the people Dad grows some too. Mom and Dad would have lived there happily ever after if some baddies hadn't kidnapped them to put on display (or experiment on, or something...). Mom and Dad escape baddies but can't find planet again. They return to Earth, their wings shrivel up and fall off, Mom dies of a broken heart, and Dad spends the rest of his life watching his pet hawk fly around the yard. Any Ideas anyone? - Herb Miller ...decvax!mit-athena!mit-speaker!hmiller ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 22:29:54-EST From: Thomas De Bellis Subject: Silently Not Even Remotely Cost Effective I, too, remember seeing Silent Running quite a long time ago. I was very young then also. I remember being awed then, just like any other `Budding-Hacker-To-Be', by the sheer technology of the film. But still, even then to young boy (me!), it was flawed by certain glaring inconsistencies. I remember feeling very sorry that those (gee) neat pods got jettisoned and blown up. Gee, why didn't they want to use them for something else? But now, years later, I know that it doesn't matter that they were blowing up millions of dollars worth of air-tight, self-sustaining pods capable of being used for just about anything (like shipping perishable cargo), you have to have nice big bang boom explosions or you won't have a commercially successful film. Has anyone really considered what air-tight containers cost? The idea of just throwing them out is like a trucker throwing out his flat-bed in order to truck refrigerated goods. The flat-bed may get left somewhere or exchanged and the trucker may just drive only the cab back to save gas, but throw it out? Come on! No, I've never really been able to swallow the economics of that film. If, perhaps, fuel was a consideration in that the pods weighed too much, they could have just thrown all the animals and what-not out? While they were at it, they could also have exhausted the air and not have had to waste any power maintaining the internal environment. Oops! I forgot about the cruelty to animals folks! It's ok to blow animals up quickly in such a way that they don't get seen. Exhausting them out an air lock where they are visible is a no-no... ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 10 Apr 85 23:25:45 PST Subject: Silent Running Science Since a good explanation has been offered for a world without plants, I wish to explain the floating ship problem. First of all, the ship was owned by American Airlines which decided that the cost/benefits (since the world existed without plants anyways) had deteriated to a point that the ship would have it's current cargo destroyed and the ship returned to normal shipping service. Why atomize the shells? Could it be that the company saw no benefit? To reduce the possibility of reentry? That the on-board thrusters could not lift them to an acceptable position? On the matter of the astronauts...Who says they were the originals? Dern, may have been playing the most active, but they would have to be in rotation with ground replacements. Why run away to Jupiter, away from the sun? Because he had just committed murder! And regardless of what his outcome was the fate for earth's eco-system would be nil unless he convinced everyone the cargo question was settled. Who knows, maybe it was a matter of insurance. ------------------------------ From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #106 Date: 10 Apr 85 20:16:07 GMT > I saw the film WIZARDS again recently. Though admittedly it has a > number of flaws, this is perhaps my favorite sf/fantasy movie, and > it outdoes most of the mainstream movies I can think of too. > Anyone else have any comment here? Yes. The rotoscoping in WIZARDS was very sloppy, much poorer than LOTR. Also, the borrowed footage from Eisenstein was used to excess, and detracted from the movie. Finally, the surprise ending was a total cheat, which denied the only point the film seemed to be making. Despite which, I still enjoyed some portions of the film. It's just too bad those portions were not part of a decent movie. > Does anyone know if Bakshi has been doing anything else lately? > Outside of FRITZ THE CAT and WIZARDS, I don't think very much of > his work; in particular I abominate the repulsive LORD OF THE > RINGS (part 1) with the Amerind Strider and the roly-poly ents. I > waited with a bunch of friends four hours for the first showing at > the Ziegfield in New York, and can still feel disappointed and let > down if I try.... I seem to recall reading that Bakshi has abandoned film, and gone over to painting or some other graphic art. As for LOTR, I liked it quite a bit, except for the hideous music. If you think Bakshi's LOTR was bad, try watching the Rankin/Bass Tolkien films (HOBBIT and RETURN OF THE KING) without gagging. Bakshi is a genius by comparison. "Roly-poly ents", indeed; Bakshi made them skinny! Your memory may be playing tricks on you. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: Thu 11 Apr 85 00:35:38-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: _LadyHawke_ Beware of Otherwise Unlabled Spoilers (and other invisible bacteria) I saw a legitimate preview of _LadyHawke_ recently. It was as good a fantasy film as I have seen recently, except maybe for _Wizards_. Most of the film was well-done but left a generic flavor in the back of the mind: most of the characters are stock characters. The exception (one of the main characters) was Philippe the thief, who acted like a vanilla thief, cowardly and so forth (the ghost of the Grey Mouser just cut my throat, but I'll deal with him later); but Philippe got some very good lines. (He kept talking to God -- who never answered, directly at least -- saying things like ``I'd like to think that there's some higher meaning to all of this. That would reflect very well on you.'' I think that they lost a lot of good characters by accident. The Evil Priest was rather boring: not actively evil, not even very oily. The worst one was LadyHawke herself: when she was human, she usually acted comatose. (Once or twice she was somewhat sensible) Admittedly, she has an excuse: she gets turned into a hawk all day, and if she wants to do anything she has to stay up most of the night, so I suppose she's stupefied from lack of sleep all the time. Still, if there were a FEMINIST-SF-LOVERS bboard, I'd flame long and loud. The fundamental idea is interesting, even if they do pound it into you with several hammers. Two lovers under a curse: she becomes a hawk in the day, he becomes a wolf at night. They don't retain their minds in animal form, which would make it more endurable. They do keep some personality, though; so the wolf doesn't tear out his girlfriend's throat. The movie explores this as well as any movie can (I'm biased toward books). It's lots of fun. Go see it. ``The Immoral'' Bard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 85 09:50 EST From: William M. York Subject: Re: Trumbull > From: lsuc!msb@topaz.arpa (Mark Brader) >>> What's Trumbull doing today? >> >> Trumbull has at least two projects going. The first is a >> Showscan process film for Expo 85 which is in Montreal, I >> believe. The film is part of an amusement park ride: you are >> part of a commercial space shuttle flight in the near future. > >Nobody else has said anything, so I suppose I'd better. Expo 85 >isn't in Montreal; it's in Tsukuba, in Japan not too far from >Tokyo. Expo 86, however, will be in Vancouver (which is at least >in the same country as Montreal). > >The theme of Expo 85 is science and technology for man at home; the >theme of Expo 86 will be transportation. Therefore it seems more >likely that the Trumbull film talked about will be shown in >Vancouver...especially since it is described as "in progress" and >Expo 85 has already opened. The Showscan movie in question IS being shown at Tsukuba Expo '85, in the Toshiba corporate pavillion. I got a chance to see it while we were setting up our exhibit in the US pavillion. The Showscan process is as impressive as ever. The film has more plot (a Japanese boy visiting an American scientist in a research lab and touring the facility with the scientist's robot) and less action than the original Showscan "demo" film. It seemed like they were worried about overstressing the audience. The action sequences have more visual surprises (e.g. in the sequence taken from the front bumper of a car travelling at high speed down narrow roads, other cars keep popping out of intersections and there are many near misses), but each sequence is interrupted frequently by shots of the boy and robot. This keeps the sequences down to about 5 seconds each and the visceral reaction from the VERY realistic visual effects is not allowed to build. Still a pretty good show... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 85 01:35:30 est From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey) Cc: solar!alan@topaz Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #118: Computers in SF: names I know the computer in Alien was called "Mother". We've got one here at MIT named after it; people never understand. And the Wargames computer was WOPR, wasn't it? I should know Asimov's computer's name, but it's been a long time. Maybe it was Multivac? I don't remember computers in "I Dream of Jeannie" or Rollerball at all, though. - John ------------------------------ From: hpfclg!bayes@topaz.arpa (bayes) Subject: Re: computer SF? Date: 8 Apr 85 16:10:00 GMT WRT to favorite computer protagonists: I still think Mike (MYCROFTXXX) in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is one of the better, more sympathetic "characters" you'll find. As for the Valentina crap, you can have it. hpfcla!bayes ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 12:05:47-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: "Computer-SF" The best novel I have read of "computer-SF" is Neuromancer, which is up for a Nebula this year. True Names was OK, but was disappointing, and Valentina just had too many inaccuracies, not to mention terrible characterization. -Laurence ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #118: Computers in SF: names Date: 10 Apr 85 18:31:47 GMT > I know the computer in Alien was called "Mother". We've got one > here at MIT named after it; people never understand. > > And the Wargames computer was WOPR, wasn't it? I should know > Asimov's computer's name, but it's been a long time. Maybe it was > Multivac? I don't remember computers in "I Dream of Jeannie" or > Rollerball at all, though. - John Asimov's computer was Multivac. If I remember correctly, the computer in Rollerball was 'Zero.' (I distinctly remember the 'head' computer scientist [computer priest?] losing it and kicking the thing when it wouldn't do what he wanted) Just a 'bit' of trivia... Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin {seismo!ut-sally|decvax!allegra|tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury ... mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Apr 85 0951-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #122 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 12 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 122 Today's Topics: Books - Jonathan Carroll & King (2 msgs) & Pohl (2 msgs) & Unknown Worlds & NYPD: 2025, Films - Movies to be Released & The Worst SF Movie & Bakshi (2 msgs), Television - BBC & A Request for Research Material, Miscellaneous - Author Support for SDI (2 msgs) & Computerized Comics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot) Subject: Jonathan Carroll Date: 10 Apr 85 19:23:57 GMT Here's a recommendation for Jonathan Carroll's novels. I believe he's only published two: The Land of Laughs & The Voice of Our Shadow Both of these books have been published by Ace Fantasy, so I guess this is an appropriate newsgroup. The narrator of Land of Laughs is a teacher at a private school who also is the son of a very famous movie actor, and he has a passion for the books by a children's author, Marshall France. He and his similarly-interested lover set out to the town of this deceased author to gather material for a biography. This book is a page-turner for a variety of reasons: the impatient, running and out of breath manner of the narrator, with occasional foreshadowing; the mystery of finding out about the author and vaguely suspicious things happening in the town; the marvelous way Carroll has with describing the tugs and pulls, the unevenness, in romantic relationships. Land of Laughs was published hardcover by Viking, and paperback by Ace Fantasy in 1983 (which is strange, since the Viking makes no mention of a fantasy restriction); bookstores may still carry the Ace. The Voice of Our Shadow has again some amount of obsession of the living for the dead, except this time it's a closer relationship - the living have some guilty feelings about having caused the death. The narrator is a writer who's comfortably well off due to royalties from a play based on a short story he wrote about his brother who died in an accident as a teenager. His brother was a bizarre bully who tormented the younger boy who wanted to be loved by the big brother. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 11 Apr 1985 08:44:39-PST From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Review of 'The Long Walk' by BACHMAN/KING In the America of the future the biggest sporting event of each year is The Long Walk. Each year 100 of America's finest young men begin a marathon race. The object of the race is to walk at a pace of at least 4 miles per hour, if a walker's pace drops below 4 mph he is given a warning. After a warning a walker has 30 seconds before a second warning is given, so that by speeding back up to 4+ mph he will avoid another warning. When a walker goes for an hour at the normal pace 1 warning will be removed. When a walker who has 3 warnings still current drops below 4 mph he is out of the race, the soldiers who monitor the race use bullets to put the walker out of the race. The soldiers will also shoot any walker that tries to run away. The object of the race is to be the last walker, the survivor gets lots of money and just about anything else he could ask for. If this sounds like the plot for 'The Running Man', it's because the plots have a lot of common ideas. While 'The Running Man' was pulled off nicely by King, I think that 'The Long Walk' falls short. This book gets real slow in the middle, sort of a marathon read. Maybe if there were soldiers who gave you a warning if you dropped below 4 minutes per page. The characters were developed well, but, I couldn't find myself caring about any of them. I didn't really hate the book, but, I would only recommend it to hard core Stephen King fans. I rate this book a 5 (out of ten). KEN COBB ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 11 Apr 1985 10:42:36-PST From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Update on 'The Dark Tower' # 2 Since I am looking forward to "The Drawing of the Four" I decided to phone Donald Grant (the publisher for the Dark Tower series) to get an idea of the actual publishing date for the 2nd "Dark Tower" book. Mr. Grant told me that King was shooting for a 1985 publication, but, he is extremely busy with the movie work he is doing and it may be pushed back to the first part of 1986. Mr. Grant said that Stephen was directing a movie for Dino de Laurentis, should be interesting. KEN COBB ------------------------------ From: bottom@katadn.DEC Subject: Heechee Rendevous Date: 10 Apr 85 13:12:12 GMT ******SPOILER WARNING!!!!!!****** I recently finished reading this book (heechee rendevous) and I found what seems to be a couple of inconsistancies. First when Essie first compiled the new datafan of Albert she distinctly said something to the effect that perhaps she should have left out the gourmet cooking software and included Sigfried Von Shrink. Then later when Albert goes bonkers Robin calls up Sigfried to help diagnose Albert. Where was Sigfried hiding in that datafan? Secondly when Albert is bragging about how he found the slush dwellers ship and consequently the Hechee he computed the number of seconds since the original sighting and then using the speed of light he computed where the ship should be. How did he know what direction to look in? *db* dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom ------------------------------ From: bottom@katadn.DEC Subject: Books by Fredrick Pohl Date: 10 Apr 85 13:15:17 GMT Recently I've read the Heechee trilogy and enjoyed it immensly. I just finished JEM and was very entertained. Does anybody out there have a complete or semi-complete list of Pohl's works? Our local book stores up here in the woods are not exactly well stocked but if I have the title I can order it. Thanks. *db* dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom PS: I highly recommend JEM as the ending will get ya! ------------------------------ From: kallis@pen.DEC Subject: Chance to bring back _Unknown_Worlds_ Date: 10 Apr 85 19:04:16 GMT The latest (June) issue of _Analog_ contains a letter of mine that, among other things, laments the lack of availability of the old _Unknown_Worlds_, which is no longer being published. The editor, Stan Schmidt, is very interested in bringing it back as a companion to _Analog_, but he has to convince the publisher it's a viable idea. He appended to the bottom of my letter the suggestion that if people were interested, to indicate by writing in. So, if you're interested, drop him a line. And pass it on. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu 11 Apr 85 13:14:42-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: WARNING Do NOT read NYPD: 2025 (or some such title), just out from Crossfire Books. I should have noticed the publisher before I bought it. This book is arguably the worst SF novel ever written (not just ever published, ever WRITTEN). I shall not say more or I may lose my lunch. -Laurence ------------------------------ From: ur-cvsvax!gary@topaz.arpa (Gary Sclar) Subject: Movies coming out Date: 11 Apr 85 20:47:00 GMT The following is a listing of sci-fi and other movies coming out this summer and later; most of this information is culled from the May issue of Starlog. 1) Mad Max III- to be released in August- stars Tina Turner and Mel Gibson- new villan is called 'The Masterblaster'- he looks nasty 2) The Clan of the Cave Bear; starring Darryl Hannah- due out August 16; may be disappointing- its an adaptation by John Sayles; his comments in the same issue of Starlog lead one to believe that he was not overly enthusiastic about the story. 3) Star Trek IV starts filming in the fall; will star all of the regulars- Nimoy to direct 4) Jewel of the Nile- sequel to Romancing the Stone; Christmas of 85 5) Pumping Iron II- The Women; April 29 debut in NYC- Bev Francis to guest-flex 6) Alien II to begin shooting soon 7) Arnold Schwarzenegger will be in 'Outpost' now shooting 8) Sci fi films to be released this summer; Wierd Science; Back to the Future; Return to OZ (June 21); The Black Cauldron (July 26); Cocoon- about aliens and old people; The Bride of Frankenstein (Sting? as the mad young doctor?);My Science Project;Red Sonja (Sandahl 'She got legs' Bergman); Lifeforce- Colin Wilson's Space Vampires;Goonies ------------------------------ From: skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA (D S Kitchen) Date: 11 Apr 1985 2226-EST (Thursday) Subject: THE worst SF movie of all time No, I'm afraid it's not settled. Even though I've never seen "Invasion of the Star Creatures", I can honestly say that the two movies that I am about to name are THE worst of all time. First, for all you monster-movie watchers out there, have any of you seen "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" (circa 1976)? Have you any idea of how outrageously BAD that movie is? It uses old cliches, has a no-name cast (well, what did you expect from low-budget flicks?), and, in general, the man who wrote it must either be: 1) in a mental asylum, 2) hiding out in the Hindu Kush, or 3) hanged (this is the preferable option). By the way, this movie also had a musical score. I can still hear it now: "Munch, munch, munch, munch, ...". Second, for the worst disappointment of all time, one must turn to the mangled epic of the ages, "DUNE". The first time I went to see the movie, I had just read the book (Yes, I know, I know, but I wasn't exposed to this much SF before college), and I came away knowing it wasn't what I expected. The second time I went to see it, I laughed all the way through. Characters thinking out loud, the irrepressible logic of the young Paul Atreides ("There must be a connection between the worm and the spice."), and the mangling of the book's plot in places (leaving out important parts and stressing unimportant ones) left me unimpressed with the merits of the film. This film had to be a disappointment for all who went to see it. Both "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes" and "DUNE" became stupid in a sense because the first was totally inane (and beyond), and the second was just so hideous...well, I don't even dare say what my friends thought of it. I also had to laugh at myself for watching both through to the end. Scott Kitchen skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 11-Apr-85 23:00 PST From: William Daul - Augmentation Systems - McDnD From: Subject: Re: Video Tape of WIZARDS(?) Cc: ames!barry@topaz.arpa Has anyone seen such a tape...does it exist? Anyone seen it in the Palo Alto area? Please send a response directly to me and avoid cluttering uninterested folks. Thanks, --Bi// ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 85 23:19:31 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: Bakshi and "Wizards" >from Laurence R Brothers >I saw the film WIZARDS again recently. Though admittedly it has a >number of flaws, this is perhaps my favorite sf/fantasy movie, and >it outdoes most of the mainstream movies I can think of too. Anyone >else have any comment here? I was vastly unimpressed with "Wizards". The film was made sort of as a demo reel for "Lord of the Rings", and it's incomplete nature shows at every turn. Bakshi doesn't bother animating much of it, the plot is shortchanged at the end, he uses rotoscoping in a lazy and obvious manner, and he has the gall to tint battle scenes from Eisenstein's "Alexander Nevsky" without acknowledging his source. For me, "Wizards" was little more than a slightly interesting failure, and I'm very surprised anyone liked it as much as you do. This certainly isn't Bakshi's finest moment, in my opinion, and, since Bakshi isn't even a first-rate director/animator, that makes it fairly feeble. Bakshi's best work was "Fritz the Cat" and the controversial "Heavy Traffic" and "Coonskin". The animation was better and Bakshi showed real imagination, something he hasn't done since. >Does anyone know if Bakshi has been doing anything else lately? Bakshi's last film was "Fire and Ice", a limited animation version of a world based on Frank Frazetta's artwork. Other than cheap animation, it wasn't too bad. This film came out about two years ago, and I haven't heard about anything from Bakshi since. Of course, even a half-decent animated film takes several years to make, so he may have something in the works. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken) Subject: APPALLING! Date: 11 Apr 85 13:12:17 GMT Now showing on BBC-1 Saturdays at 5:20, replacing Doctor Who, is (gag) Wonder Woman! Interesting facts: Micheal Grade is British born, however spent most of his working life working with American television, and apparently wants to Americanize the BBC. (ie flamingly expensive mini-series, etc.) His first act as BBC comtroller was to spend a fortune on buying Caine and Abel, a mini-series that he produced! A clear conflict of interest! He is also the person who wants to bring advertising to the BBC. The sooner he is out of there, the better, and not just for Doctor Who's sake! James C. Armstrong, Jnr. ihnp4!abnji!nyssa ------------------------------ Date: Thu 11 Apr 85 23:04:57-EST From: SE.SAMURAI%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #120 I'm working on a term paper on television science fiction and I have run into a crunch for research material. I am in desperate need for information on the following television series: 1. Futurecop (ABC) 2. The Return of Captain Nemo (or some such title) 3. Brave New World (Miniseries for NBC, broadcast c.1980) Any help would be appreciated, especially cast lists, production/creation info, and other credits where appropriate. Please don't include episode names. James Kiso ------------------------------ From: terak!doug@topaz.arpa (Doug Pardee) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI Date: 9 Apr 85 15:43:02 GMT > The article said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the > initiative and Robert Heinlein for it. Great. Advice on space defense from people who refuse to set foot in an airplane. Okay, okay, in Asimov's case "refuse" might be a bit strong... how about "goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid"? Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug ------------------------------ From: terak!doug@topaz.arpa (Doug Pardee) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI Date: 9 Apr 85 15:43:02 GMT > The article > said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the initiative and > Robert Heinlein for it. Great. Advice on space defense from people who refuse to set foot in an airplane. Okay, okay, in Asimov's case "refuse" might be a bit strong... how about "goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid"? -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug ------------------------------ Subject: Computerized Comic Date: 10 Apr 85 11:18:43 PST (Wed) From: Dan Eilers (ICSC) I've got in front of me a copy of the 'First Computerized Comic': SHATTER. Artist Micheal Saenz and writer Peter Gillis turned to an MacApple to generate a stunning SF comic book. The artwork is realistic and the story is lifted from Bladerunner. First edition comic books are always appreciating in value and hard to find. Check your local Comic Book store or write First Comics Publishing, 1014 Davis St., Evanston IL 60201. As an SF comic book fan, I feel this is an area that this BB needs to give more attention. See you at the beach. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 15 Apr 85 1129-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #123 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Apr 85 1129-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #123 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 15 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 123 Today's Topics: Books - Cook (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Hogan (2 msgs) & Pohl (2 msgs) & Wolfe & Unknown Worlds & Packaging of Books, Films - Trumbull & Rollerball & Buckaroo Banzai, Miscellaneous - Bookstore Addresses Wanted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 11 Apr 85 13:23:41-PST From: Laurence R Brothers I've liked much of his writing too, especially the fantasy novels. I must say, though, that his SF has been rather poor. I didn't think much of his Starfisher trilogy, and his latest SF novel, a time-travel detective novel, is not very well thought out. One strange thing, though. Much of Cook's writing is very good, but he shows an unseemly attraction to the word "provenance". This rather unused word is encountered several times per Cook novel, enough to make it annoying, even though the usage is perfectly correct; now every time he uses the word I find my fascination with his story broken by the observation of this phenomenon. So far, I have liked Cook's story of the Black Company best of his work. It is refreshing to read a fantasy novel where the GOOD protagonists don't inevitably wipe out their EVIL opponents. Cook allows for the humanity of his villains, and his "heroes" do some pretty reprehensible (though understandable) things while trying to stay alive. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 85 14:45:51 EST From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: The Black Company vs. The White Company This is in response to a review of the third book in the "Black Company" series, in SFL V10 #119. I haven't read any of the "Black Company" books, and indeed wasn't aware of them until I read this review, but the title suggests a reference to Arthur Conan Doyle's "The White Company", a historical novel about a company of mercenaries, set around the time of the Crusades. If you enjoy the Black Company books, it would probably be worth reading the Doyle to see if there is more than just a coincidence of titles. "The White Company", although not up to the quality of the Holmes works, is quite readable Doyle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Apr 85 00:08:16-EST From: Janice Subject: The Number of the Beast (yes, one more flame) The Number of the Beast was one of the biggest disappointments I have ever experienced. As one of the few people who will admit to liking Time Enough for Love, and having been assured by Spider Robinson in his review in Analog than anyone who liked TEfL would love TNotB, I ran right out and got it. I managed to get through it once. I recently donated it to a library, realizing I was never, ever going to read it again. Heinlein committed two unforgiveable sins in this book. First, he set up a plot (which I actually enjoyed) early in the book and then just let it peter out without a proper resolution. Second, and worse, the entire ending is an in-joke to please himself. I am told, reliably, that the characters, names, etc. in the last chapter are hacks on Midwest sf fans the Heinleins know. I spent *days* trying to figure that chapter out, wondering if I was just stupid or something. This is not even to mention the everlasting arguments and absolutely ludicrous female characters (I don't know anyone who's ever heard a nipple go "spang!"). Janice ------------------------------ From: bu-cs!todd@topaz.arpa (Todd Cooper) Subject: Re: The Code of the Lifemaker -- spoiler Date: 14 Apr 85 06:16:50 GMT Has anyone else really enjoyed this book? I would like to hear from all the James P. Hogan fans... What is his address (USnail or e-mail) I would LOVE to write to him. He was listed in Who's-who of American author's a while back, but that gives his east coast address. Anyone have the west coast address? Todd Cooper (617) 424-9018 UUCP: ...!harvard!bu-cs!todd ARPA: todd%bu-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa USNail: 13 Marlborough St. #1, Boston, MA 02116 ------------------------------ Date: 13 Apr 1985 15:03-PST From: king@Kestrel.ARPA Subject: The Code of the Lifemaker -- spoiler I was not really impressed with The Code of the Lifemaker. I mean, for god's sake, they even had HORSES! The "people" ate, slept, looked, and to a large extent acted just like us. The only difference, the only thing that made for any interest, was the fact that a faction of earthlings wanted to take away the robots' rights (as if stealing their "life forms" was likely to be useful, given that they evolved for a temperature of -150 C -- what form of life would you steal from Earth if you lived on a metallic-life-form planet with a temperature of 350 C?) A better writing with the same premise is a short story by Anderson entitled Epilog. Does anyone out there have the name of a third? Dick ------------------------------ Date: Sat 13 Apr 85 16:29:34-EST From: Rob Austein Subject: Pohl This isn't an exhaustive list, just my favorites: Heechee Trilogy (Gateway, Blue Event Horizon, Heechee Rendevous) Already been described on SFL. The Cool War About a Unitarian Universalist minister who gets drafted into "The Team", a successor organization to the CIA. A good read even if you don't like politics in your SF, and a must if you do. A Plauge of Pythons (reprinted as Demons of the Skull) The world has fallen apart because people are being "possessed", ie their bodies are doing things the owners don't want them to. This is SF, not fantasy, but you spend most of the book trying to figure out what the bleep is going on. Man Plus A cyborg's eye view of the first attempt to colonize Mars, with a neat twist at the end. All of the above highly recommended, in particular The Cool War. Pretty much anything Pohl writes is at least readable, so you won't lose too badly if you just buy whatever you find. --Rob ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 15 Apr 1985 06:27:21-PST From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andy V) Subject: Heechee Rendevous Question > I recently finished reading this book (heechee rendevous) and I > found what seems to be a couple of inconsistancies. ... > Secondly when Albert is bragging about how he found the slush > dwellers ship and consequently the Hechee he computed the number > of seconds since the original sighting and then using the speed of > light he computed where the ship should be. How did he know what > direction to look in? > *db* > dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom Albert used a simple 'time machine' to get his movie. If you want to see what happened here 30 seconds ago, move away (in ANY direction) 30 light-seconds, then use a good telescope. You will see what happens because the light you are receiving left the scene 30 seconds ago. Needless to say, this 'time machine' needs faster-than-light travel to work. Andy V ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 85 00:58:34 MST From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: New publication info for Gene Wolfe's FREE LIVE FREE I'm not particularly up-to-date on the vagaries of the sf publishing business, but I just received some publishing information that may be of interest to fans of Gene Wolfe. Wolfe's novel FREE LIVE FREE, which was written in 1983, was not published as expected in 1984 because of the demise of Pocket Books' Timescape sf line. Instead Mark Ziesing published a special limited edition of the book in late 1984. I talked to Mark Ziesing on the phone this week and asked him about the prospects for a trade edition of the novel. Ziesing said that he had some information that he wasn't completely certain of; the gist of it was that the book would appear as a Tor or Baen trade hardcover sometime in late 1985. (This may have something to do with the fact that David Hartwell, Wolfe's editor at Timescape, is now an 'acquisitions editor' for Tor, among his other occupations, according to Norman Spinrad's column in LOCUS #289.) I have a copy of Ziesing's beautiful (and expensive) edition, but this new edition would mean that more than 750 people would get to enjoy this warm, funny, STRANGE book... Wishing I knew when THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN will come out, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot) Subject: Re: Chance to bring back _Unknown_Worlds Date: 12 Apr 85 16:07:29 GMT Steve Kallis > The latest (June) issue of _Analog_ contains a letter of mine > that, among other things, laments the lack of availability of the > old _Unknown_Worlds_, which is no longer being published. The > editor, Stan Schmidt, is very interested in bringing it back as a > companion to _Analog_, but he has to convince the publisher it's a > viable idea. He appended to the bottom of my letter the > suggestion that if people were interested, to indicate by writing > in. Well, *I* haven't had any use for _Analog_ for several years (-:no fireplace:-), and I've never seen a copy of _Unknown_Worlds. What sorts of things were published in _Unknown_Worlds_? Both general descriptions or a list of some specific stories would be help in convincing those of us who are ignorant-but-might-be-interested to write in. (So far, though, I've not been much pleased with anything I've subscribed to by that publisher, neither _Analog_, which the publisher refused to cancel my subscription before it ended, nor the short-lived _Science_Fiction_Digest_.) Thanks in advance, L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (L S Chabot) Subject: packaging Date: 12 Apr 85 21:37:53 GMT > DON'T BLAME THE AUTHOR FOR THE PACKAGING OF HIS BOOK!!! Well, yes, few authors can even complain (and get results) about a proposed cover--this is true not just for science fiction authors. (or fiction authors) However, some biggies appear to be able to influence things some. I've heard Harlan Ellison at public lectures flame about getting them to leave off those ads and forms you often get at the end of a book. He claims to have been successful. Let's see...Patricia Wrede's latest (_The_Harp_of_...) doesn't have any ads, but both Steven Brust's _To_Reign_In_Hell_ and Pamela Dean's _The_Secret_Country_ do, and all of these came out from Ace this spring. So, SZKB, can you comment on these ads? I can imagine that Ace wouldn't give Pamela Dean much say so, since this was her first book, but you've got a couple. Does anybody other than Ellison gripe about the ads at the end? L S Chabot UUCP: ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ARPA: ...chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 12 Apr 1985 07:08:13-PST From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Randy Dearborn, Principal From: Graphic Designer, DTN 264-5090) Subject: Silent Running (Who did What) > Battlestar Galatcica and Buck Rogers were both filmed and produced > at Universal Studios. (In fact if you ever visit there you will > still see sets used in both shows.) Douglas Trumbul, if memory > serves correctly did the specical effects on all three movies, > (Battlestar G, Buck Rogers, Silent Running). Universal probably > got the footage from SR from him to use in Battlestar. I'm > guessing at this. Douglas Trumbull directed Silent Running (and Brainstorm). He is also known for his effects work on Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Star Trek the Motion Picture (cleaning up after Robert Abel) with John Dykstra, and Blade Runner. John Dykstra did the original effects for Battlestar Galactica. Then Universal set up its Hartland effects facility to continue the work and do the effects for Buck Rogers (and Airport '79: the Concorde). I believe that SR was a Universal film. Universal is notorious for re-using footage in other films. That's probably what happened here. Randy Dearborn DEC Merrimack, NH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Apr 85 11:23 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: computers in SF - Rollerball > computer in Rollerball was 'Zero.' (I distinctly remember the > 'head' computer scientist [computer priest?] losing it and kicking > the thing when it wouldn't do what he wanted) Oh, one of my favorite actors, Sir Ralph Richardson, played the computer priest. And he was just as eccentric as his computer (a fluid dynamics based computer, as I recall). You remember him, he was also the wonderful wizard in DragonSlayer (which I enjoyed a lot). He's one of the few great actors (I'm talking really great- I put him somewhere near Lawrence Olivier and John Gielgud) to do much fantasy or science fiction work. (No, I don't consider Shakespeare to be fantasy, except Midsummer Nights Dream, and maybe The Tempest, and maybe ...). Brett Slocum (ARPA : Slocum\@HI-MULTICS) (UUCP : ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum) ------------------------------ From: wjh12!gts@topaz.arpa (G. T. Samson) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai soundtrack Date: 13 Apr 85 06:09:04 GMT Is there such a thing as a Buckaroo Banzai soundtrack? I really enjoyed some of the music in that movie, especially the end title theme, and I'd love to get a copy. Please mail to me, don't post, if you have information. Thanks! Name: G. T. Samson Quote: "No matter where you go...there you are." -- B. Banzai ARPA: gts@wjh12 [preferred] OR samson%h-sc4@harvard USMail: Lowell H-41, Harvard U., Cambridge, MA 02138 ------------------------------ Date: Sun 14 Apr 85 20:22:18-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: Bookstore addresses wanted I am looking for the complete mailing addresses of the following SF/fantasy booksellers; can some of you out there provide me with those addresses? (PLEASE send replies to me at ZELLICH@SRI-NIC; DON'T reply to the list... If people are really interested in having such a list, let me know and when I get these addresses I'll send you the full list (I have another 18 on my list, plus a couple of local ones here in St. Louis that I haven't bothered to put on the list yet.) Thanks, Rich Austin Books Odyssey Bookshop xxx? xxx? Austin, TX xxxxx? xxxx?, KY xxxxx? Dangerous Visions The Other Change of Hobbit xxx? xxx? xxxx?, CA xxxxx? xxxx?, CA xxxxx? Fantastic Worlds Bookstore #1 Science Fantasy Bookstore xxx? xxx? Fort Worth, TX xxxxx? xxxx?, MA xxxxx? Fantastic Worlds Bookstore #2 Science Fiction & Mystery Bookshop 581 W. Campbell Rd #119 xxx? Richardson, TX xxxxx? Atlanta, GA xxxxx? Forbidden Planet Uncle Hugo's Bookstore xxx? xxx? New York, NY xxxxx? Minneapolis, MN xxxxx? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Apr 85 0907-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #124 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 124 Today's Topics: Books - NYPD: 2025, Films - Invasion of the Star Creatures & Mad Max III & Attack of the Killer Tomatoes & Buckaroo Banzai & Sir Ralph Richardson, Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (6 msgs) & Space Defense Initiative (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 12 Apr 85 22:14:09-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #122 > Do NOT read NYPD: 2025 (or some such title), just out from > Crossfire Books. I should have noticed the publisher before I > bought it. This book is arguably the worst SF novel ever written > (not just ever published, ever WRITTEN). I shall not say more or I > may lose my lunch. With an intro like that, you had better tell us more or some half-crazed hackist will find a way to send a letterbomb over netmail... -- Bard ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 1985 17:29:00-EST From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: "Invasion of the Star Creatures" > From: Provan@LLL-MFE.ARPA > It's settled now: I just saw *THE* worst SF movie of all time. > It's a 1963 movie called "Invasion of the Star Creatures." It was > every bit as bad as "Plan 9 from Outer Space" except it was > *trying* to be funny. It ends up being sorta meta-stupid: trying > to be stupid and being stupid about it. It was sorta funny in a > Zen way. Nothing was really funny, but I had to laugh at myself > for watching it through to the end. Gee, I always kind of LIKED this movie; though, admittedly, it's been years since I've seen it. This IS the one that stars the two schlepps who are apparently trying to be a poor man's Abbott & Costello, right? And is directed by "R. I. Diculous?" If so, I liked it. Not as SF (God forbid!), but as spoof set within an SF framework. Though I pretty much have to agree with you, Provan, about its stupidity; in fact, the more I think about it, the more it strikes me that "meta-stupid" is the perfect adjective for this movie. But I guess I found its silliness sufficiently funny to satisfy me. My favorite scene occurs when our heroes are outside the cave occupied by the aliens and are surprised by a band of hostile Indians (of the native American variety). I thought this a pretty silly twist, since the movie is apparently set in the present of 1963. The Indians tie up the guys, aiming to burn them at the stake, if memory serves, but just as time is about to run out for our heroes, the leader of the Indians spies a Captain Midnight Secret Decoder Ring on the finger of one of our heroes. He puts a stop to the impending torture; it turns out that he, too, has a Captain Midnight Secret Decoder Ring, so he and our hero are blood-brothers! Hmmm.... I'm afraid my transliteration of that scene has kind of lost something. But I found it tremendously silly. Almost... Pythonesque! Regards, Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ From: skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA (D S Kitchen) Date: 14 Apr 1985 1618-EST (Sunday) Subject: Mad Max III Could someone out there give me some help? I enjoyed both "Mad Max" and "The Road Warrior". Now, there's going to be a third movie. Would someone please tell me the correct title? I've heard that it's going to be "Mad Max III" and also "Road Warrior II". What's the deal? Scott Kitchen ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Apr 85 00:09:45-EST From: Janice Subject: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes I can't believe this cropped up on a worst sf movie list again. It was a JOKE, people -- a hack on the typical monster movie. Come on, already. It wasn't the funniest movie ever made, but it did have its moments. Janice ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Apr 85 23:22:07-EST From: SE.SAMURAI%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #123 About the Buckaroo Bonzai soundtrack: I don't know if such a soundtrack exists, but you can find the final theme to the film on Dave Grusin's Night Lines album. It is called Kitchen Dance. James Kiso ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 85 23:33:49 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: Ralph Richardson's fantasy career Richardson, truly one of the century's great actors, actually wound up doing rather a lot of fantasy and science fiction films over the years. Here's a list "Things to Come" 1936 "The Man Who Could Work Miracles" 1936 "The Bed Sitting Room" 1969 (in the title role...) "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" 1972 "O Lucky Man!" 1973 "Rollerball" 1978 "Time Bandits" 1983 "Dragonslayer" 1983 Also a voice in "Watership Down", two horror pictures ("The Ghoul" in 1933 and "Tales from the Crypt" in 1972), and I know some people who consider "Breaking the Sound Barrier" to be science fiction. Richardson had a mischievous, pixielike quality behind a facade of reserve which made him much more appropriate for these sorts of roles than his peers, Gielgud and Olivier. (Imagine what British theater was like when all three of them were young and rattling off one Shakespeare play after another.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Apr 85 16:33:49-EST From: SE.SAMURAI%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #118 Just for what it's worth, the name of the computer in Alien was "Mother," though this was a nice, English pronunciation of a system name which was something like MuThr. The computer in Rollerball was called Zero and used bubble memory (real bubbles-like in water). As for Wargames, who can forget the incredible WOPR (who cares what it stands for, it sounds just marvelous). To add a few more computers to your list: 6. All of the computers in the Twilight Zone episodes (I can remember at least two). 7. The computers which comprised Merlin in H.B. Piper's novels. 8. The robot/computer systems in Space:1999 (They're an interesting lot, if not very realistic.) James Kiso ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz.arpa (Herb Chong [DCS]) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #118: Computers in SF: names Date: 11 Apr 85 05:10:21 GMT romkey@mit-borax writes: >I should know Asimov's computer's name, but it's been a long time. >Maybe it was Multivac? > - John actually, there were several computers in "The Last Question". they all had 'ac' on the end (for analogue computer). multivac was one, COSMIC AC was another. there are at least 3 more. Herb Chong... I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble.... UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu ------------------------------ From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herbert A Miller) Date: 11 Apr 1985 1454-EST (Thursday) Subject: favorite computer SF My votes for best SF with a computer go to: 1. Heinlein's novel "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" 2. Asimov's short story "The Last Question" also, the short story, "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" (well, it's sort of a computer story...) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Apr 85 2248 PST From: Dave Fuchs Subject: Computers in SF: names While we're on the subject, what's the name of the robot that almost takes over George Jetson's job? (I've been waiting YEARS to ask that one!) -david ------------------------------ Date: 12 Apr 1985 08:30:49-EST From: rachiele@NADC Subject: computer names I seem to remember that the computer in Wargames also liked to be called Jerimy or something like that. Jim Rachiele ------------------------------ Date: Fri 12 Apr 85 21:17:50-MST From: Peter Badovinatz Subject: Computers in SF and Classic SF Guess I should have sent this in earlier, but, busy etc. To add to the list of stories with a computer as a central character, add the story "Moxon's Master" by Ambrose Bierce. I have it in a collection entitled _WONDERMAKERS:__An_Anthology_of_Classic_ Science_Fiction_, edited by Robert Hoskins. "Moxon's Master" is a definite classic. It was written around 1890 and features an intelligent robot. While it may not be the earliest attempt at describing an automaton, it does a credible job of describing robotics and artificial intelligence. Ambrose Bierce was born in 1842 and apparently died in 1914 in Mexico. _Wondermakers_ was published in 1972 by Fawcett Publications, Inc. The stories are very dated, but can still be excellent reading. If you can read a story and place yourself into the author's world while doing so, they are interesting. The age of many of these stories makes them almost trivial in scope, but a story about bacteriological warfare written in 1910 (Jack London's "The Unparalleled Invasion") does inspire some awe. _Wondermakers_ contains the following stories: Edgar Allen Poe -- "The Balloon Hoax" -- ~1850 Edwin A. Abbott -- excerpts from "Flatland" -- late 19th century Ambrose Bierce -- "Moxon's Master" -- ~1890 H.G. Wells -- "The Land Ironclads" -- ~1900 Rudyard Kipling -- "With the Night Mail" -- ~1905 E.M. Forster -- "The Machine Stops" -- ~1905 (not published until 1928) (Forster wrote "A Passage to India" in 1924. Basis of recent movie of same name.) Jack London -- "The Unparalleled Invasion" -- 1910 A. Conan Doyle -- "The Disintegration Machine" -- 1928 Stephen Vincent Benet -- "Metropolitan Nightmare" -- 1927 "Nightmare Number Three" -- 1935 Theodore Sturgeon -- "Killdozer!" -- 1944 James Blish -- "Surface Tension" -- 1952 Peter R Badovinatz ARPA: BADOVINATZ@UTAH-20 Univ of Utah Comp Sci Dept UUCP: ...!utah-cs!badovin ------------------------------ From: randvax!rohn@topaz.arpa (Laurinda Rohn) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI Date: 11 Apr 85 00:43:16 GMT > from Bill Baker > I was reading somewheres that President Reagan's Strategic > Defense Initiative, .i.e. "Star Wars", had split a great many > interest groups, including science fiction writers. The article > said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the initiative and > Robert Heinlein for it. I knew that Heinlein was still writing, > but I didn't know that he was still politically active as he was > in the 50's and 60's. > Has anyone seen an article with such statements attributed > to him? If so, I would certainly like a pointer to it. I am not > surprised that he would take such a stand, but he has been > misquoted in the past and I would like to see just what it was > that he said. I don't know of any particular quotes offhand from Mr. Heinlein, but I am sure he has made some to that effect. He is active in the High Frontier PAC, which is the pro-SDI political action committee. Lauri rohn@rand-unix.ARPA ..decvax!randvax!rohn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Apr 85 17:53:34 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: the Space Defense Initiative Here we have a science-fictional concept which is quickly becoming reality. What do you all think of the Space Defense Initiative ('Star Wars') ?? I should expect quite a variety of opinions; if the SF writers are lining up on both sides, can the readers be far behind? I suppose I should state my own position: while the SDI sounds like an awfully elegant solution to the arms race, it has the feel of the science in all too many SF stories; it seems really neat until you start to think about the details, upon which you get a nagging feeling that it's not awfully plausible after all. From time to time, it seems, real-life ideas of this nature pop up, and many SF people are attracted to them. (Examples? Remember the half-baked ideas that Campbell was so fond of: Dianetics, the Dean Drive, psionics ... ) Giant lasers reflecting beams off of orbital mirrors, orbital lasers pumped by nuclear bombs, railguns accelerating metal cubes at thousands of g's . . . all but the railgun seem improbable at best: I can imagine what that laser beam will look like after passing through the atmosphere 1 1/2 times! The x-ray lasers, to the best of my knowledge, can never be tested without violating treaties barring nuclear explosions in space. Even granting all this, how the hell are they going to hit a missile with enough accuracy to not only prevent it from hitting its target, but also prevent it from damaging some other target? Suppose all this works. Some fraction of incoming missiles will still get through (causing "acceptable megadeaths"). This encourages the Soviets to increase their firepower, for if they build twice as many missiles, they will inflict twice as much damage upon us. Before deployment, the ICBM was expected to be a deterrent, but it has in fact helped to destabilize the nuclear balance. I fear the the same will be true of the SDI. You can regard this, if you wish, as another discussion on the level of "how do tides operate on an integral tree", or "what were Earth's motivations in recalling the ships in _Silent_Running_", but remember that the SDI could have an enormous influence upon us in a few decades' time . . . --Peter Alfke (jpa144@cit-vax) ------------------------------ From: wudma!ph@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI Date: 13 Apr 85 14:53:07 GMT >> The article said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the >> initiative and Robert Heinlein for it. > > Great. Advice on space defense from people who refuse to set foot > in an airplane. > > Okay, okay, in Asimov's case "refuse" might be a bit strong... how > about "goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid"? And in Heinlein's case it is at least a byte strong--in fact, I've never heard ANY evidence that he has any technophobic fear of flying; I thought he had done it many times. In any case wouldn't such a fear be pretty silly in a man who hopes to live long enough to buy a commercial ticket to the moon? --pH ------------------------------ From: oliveb!long@topaz.arpa (A Panther Modern) Subject: Re: Robert Heinlein and SDI Date: 13 Apr 85 02:56:34 GMT >> The article said that Isaac Asimov had come out against the >> initiative and Robert Heinlein for it. > > Great. Advice on space defense from people who refuse to set foot > in an airplane. Great. Sarcasm from people who refuse to notice that there is no logical connection between refusal to set foot in airplanes and quality of view on SDI. gnoL evaD {msoft,allegra,gsgvax,fortune,hplabs,idi,ios, nwuxd,ihnp4,tolrnt,tty3b,vlsvax1,zehntel}!oliveb!long ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Apr 85 0957-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #125 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 125 Today's Topics: Books - Cook & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Herbert & Kurtz & Far Frontiers, Comics - Jon Sable, Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Mad Max III ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 15 Apr 85 23:14:58-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #123 > One strange thing, though. Much of Cook's writing is very good, > but he shows an unseemly attraction to the word "provenance". This > rather unused word is encountered several times per Cook novel, > enough to make it annoying, even though the usage is perfectly > correct; now every time he uses the word I find my fascination > with his story broken by the observation of this phenomenon. I've read and loved a lot of Cook's writing (the fantasy is superb -- the Dark Empire trilogy is as good as the Black Company stuff, and The Swordbearer is close.). He has a few other repeated patterns. I've run into the name ``Boroba Thring'' half a dozen times, once or twice in every series except Black Company. It doesn't have any particular connotations: one time it's some old wizard who gave her (or his) name to a divination, another time it's a journalist, a third time it's an assassin who gets killed almost immediately. Does anyone know if it means anything? > So far, I have liked Cook's story of the Black Company best of his > work. It is refreshing to read a fantasy novel where the GOOD > protagonists don't inevitably wipe out their EVIL opponents. Cook > allows for the humanity of his villains, and his "heroes" do some > pretty reprehensible (though understandable) things while trying > to stay alive. Beware Spoilers! Not quite; the Dominator is EVIL without personality, EVIL enough for the merely Evil ``Lady'' to unite with the good side against. But I, too, am quite pleased that the Lady didn't turn out as boring as Sauron; in fact, was even worth a bit of empathy. Also, that she wasn't converted to sweetness and light; she tried to take out her Good ally, Darling, after they had just defeated the Dominator. (Not the whole Good side, perhaps; she didn't get the chance, and we don't know.) The Lady is as interesting and plausible a character as any I know of. Again, let me recommend the Dread Empire trilogy for the same traits. O Shing, emperor of the Dread Empire and as foul a villain as the world knows in book 2, is a real and human character in book 3. > review, but the title suggests a reference to Arthur Conan Doyle's > "The White Company", a historical novel about a company of > mercenaries, set around the time of the Crusades. If you enjoy > the Hmm. The second book is ``Shadows Linger'', a plausible title given the events of that book; but wasn't there a book called ``Shadow Singer'' out recently also? Not that all Glen Cook's titles are taken from other sources: ``A Shadow of All Night Falling'' doesn't sound like anything I've heard. Pax VAXque finis taxque vobiscum (at least, your taxes -should- be over...) Bard ------------------------------ From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker) Subject: Number of the Beast Date: 15 Apr 85 15:07:20 GMT Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB? I hope not. I can see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should all remember is that the whole book was deliberately done in a very tongue-in-cheek manner. Anyone who has read a lot of Heinlein's work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the characters in that zoo of a last chapter. One character there that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir Isaac Newton. Anybody know where this one came from?? Mike Stalnaker UUCP:{decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike AT&T:202-376-2593 USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 10:45 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Time Enough for Love I didn't know I was in a minority: I also liked Time Enough for Love. All of the Lazarus Long stuff that I've read(TEfL, Methuselah's Children) was good. TEfL was an excellent, indepth look at a most unique individual: the two thousand year old man(not to be confused with Mel Brooks). I enjoyed the episodic style, the notebook, the anecdotes, etc. Maybe I'm strange, but I liked it as much as Stranger in a Strange Land and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. BTW, can anyone tell me the name of the short story that has Andrew Jackson Libby in it? It tells about his early days in some space navy. His phenomenal mathematical ability is first noticed. Brett Slocum ------------------------------ From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herbert A Miller) Date: 16 Apr 1985 1944-EST (Tuesday) Subject: "Chapterhouse:Dune" ** FLAME WARNING ** ** SPOILER WARNING ** I have read all of the book's in Herbert's Dune series and liked them very much (excepting #4 - "God Awful of Dune") I awaited the arrival of Chapterhouse with great anticipation. Having just finished it, I can recommend it with a "Yes, but..". The plot: We start several years after the end of "Heretics". Duncan Idaho and Murbella are still captive in the no-ship. She is in training to become a Reverend Mother and is very seriously committed to the Sisterhood. This worries Duncan, he fears they will make her stop loving him. Meanwhile, Chapterhouse (the planet) is being turned into another Dune and the Sisterhood has created a Miles Teg ghola, thanks to their new use of axlotl tanks. (You guessed it, it's time for another ride on the "How-should-we-give- him-back-his-memories" carousel) Everyone is terrified that the Honored Matres will find Chapterhouse and destroy the Sisterhood. Finally, Murbella rides in on her white horse, unifying the Honored Matres and the Bene Gesserit. The strong points: The plot moved along fairly well, without taking excessive time in dealing with the character's deeper speculations about the "cosmicness of it all", something that dragged "God Emperor" to a standstill at times. I particularly enjoyed the characterization of Darwi Odrade as Mother Superior, and the tightrope she walked to preserve the Sisterhood. It was also nice to see Duncan seeking freedom from those "damnable Atreides". Things I did not like: I found the the relationship between Duncan and Murbella to be shallow, and their upset at being driven apart an excuse (and a poor one, at that) for the eventual plot development. The section on the Secret Israel and Lucilla's death I found to be an interesting idea that went nowhere; as is, it in no way furthers the story or any aspect of it. Although I found the eventual settlement reached between the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Matres plausible, it is thrown at the reader without introduction or explanation. (I almost get the feeling that Herbert was forced to edit the book a bit more than he'd planned and said, "Let's throw this away, they'll never miss it.!") As for the very end (the last two or three pages), if Herbert was trying to totally confuse the reader, he succeeded with me. I get the feeling that he is about to push off in some totally new and previously unmentioned direction. Beyond that, the conversation between Daniel and Marty, two total unknowns who are introduced in the last two pages (pruning roses, of all things!), has a lot of the flavor of: "and then the little boy woke up." So, as I said, I recommend the book with a "Yes, but..". I freely admit that I approached this book as the Duneaddict that I am (I have the feeling that I just opened myself to a lot of flaming) and that these are just my immediate impressions after a first reading, perhaps all will come clear with time. - Herb ...decvax!mit-athena!mit-speaker!hmiller ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Apr 1985 05:09:19-PST From: devi%maisha.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gita L. Devi PKO1/D1 223-7046) Subject: Katherine Kurtz Does anyone know when "Bishop's Heir" will be coming out in a paperback edition? Also - I was a little disappointed when the Camber triology ended on such an abrupt note. It almost seemed as if the author suddenly decided that she had written enough and had better end things quickly. Since I enjoyed the series so much ( and the subsequent Deryni series), I'm hoping that she will wrap up all of the loose ends. Does anyone know if there are any more Deryni books in the works? Thanks for your help. Gita ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: FAR FRONTIERS -- SF & politics Date: 12 Apr 85 13:03:25 GMT FAR FRONTIERS (edited by Jerry Pournelle and Jim Baen) Baen Books, 1985, $2.95. A book review by Mark R. Leeper FAR FRONTIERS is planned to be a regularly published anthology of science fiction and speculative fact. The editors, Jerry Pournelle and Jim Baen, call it a magazine published in book form. As one might expect with anything Pournelle has a hand in of late, it has a political philosophy that shows up explicitly in Pournelle's introductions, implicitly in the choice of non-fiction articles, and perhaps covertly in the choice of fiction. In reviewing so politicized a collection, I should let the reader know what my politics are. I consider myself a moderate liberal, formerly an extreme liberal, with a growing respect for and interest in some right-wing political viewpoints. This makes right-wing friends think I am left-wing and VICE VERSA. I now can disagree with just about anyone. While I was reading, I was disagreeing with Pournelle's right-wing politics, but enjoying every minute of doing so. I have only a little more respect for Pournelle than I do for his left-wing mirror image in science fiction, Harlan Ellison. Pournelle is marginally, and only marginally, less obnoxious in the ways he chooses to express his politics. The anthology opens with an editorial by Pournelle--the man who attempted to politicize the L-5 Society and has been soap-boxing for the Strategic Defense Initiative at every turn--complaining that the American Association for the Advancement of Science has been over-politicized with a left-wing philosophy. He may be right, but coming from him, the complaint is a bit ironic. The stories are above average in quality for a science fiction magazine, though perhaps a bit below average for an anthology where the editor can pick and choose the best of what has already been published. For me the most enjoyable story was "Brain Salad" by Norman Spinrad, but then I enjoy self-referential stories like last year's Hugo-nominated "Geometry of Narrative" by Hilbert Schenck. David Brin's "The Warm Space" is a passable imitation of a Larry Niven story, and Larry Niven turns in a story that smacks of Alan Dean Foster on a good day for Foster. Damon Knight's "Goodbye, Dr. Ralston" is an enjoyable piece of fluff. Greg Bear's "Through Road No Whither" tries to be fluff with hidden teeth, but makes it only on the fluff count. "Lost in Translation" by Dean Ing is an interesting idea with a muddled execution, while "The Boy from the Moon" shares only the muddled execution. That leaves Poul Anderson's "Pride," which, like his TAU ZERO, places uninteresting people at an interesting event. The articles were more interesting than the fiction. Ben Bova explains why America stood alone at the U.N.'s committee on the Peaceful Uses of Space and was voted down 102 to 1 defending the unrestricted flow of information via direct broadcast satellites. In other words, the U.S. tried to make it possible for anyone to broadcast anything into anyone's country and let the listener make up his/her own mind what to believe. If this really is a right-wing idea, it is certainly one right-wing idea I agree with. I grew up thinking of freedom of expression as a left-wing ideal. Of late, there seem to be those who hold the view that this freedom is a means to suppress the down-trodden. If the championing of freedom of expression moves to the right-wing, I may follow it. "Future Scenarios for Space Development" appears to be the text for a lecture G. Harry Stine gave (we are never told to whom). It is a nice introduction to Gompertz S-curves and why they predict a rosy future for the world. I have heard the arguments here before, but not as cogently or expressed as mathematically. I have a minor quibble in that Stine thinks that the derivative of a Gompertz curve is almost a spike. This would mean that a human, a corporation, or a society or relatively static, hits its prime over a short period of time, and then goes static again fairly quickly. I would expect the prime to be stretched out over a longer period, with the derivative being a bell-shaped curve, not a spike. The last article is an exposition by Robert Forward on various concepts for inter-stellar drives and their relation to the Fermi Paradox, which asks: if there are so many worlds out there, and such a high probability of intelligent life on many of them, how come we haven't had company? The article would have been quite interesting if it had been the first time I had read it, but much of it was covered in Forward's afterward to RIDING THE TORCH (which I got at the same time I got FAR FRONTIERS). This magazine in book form had a fair amount of provocative reading-- certainly more than I expected. The non-fiction was more interesting than the fiction, and while it contained little that I hadn't heard somewhere before, it was good to have it together in one piece. There was nothing I loved in FAR FRONTIERS but the whole, I think, was better than the sum of its parts. Issue two has already been published and I bought it immediately on seeing it. That is an unexpected tribute to Pournelle the editor and perhaps to Pournelle the politician. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper But, on May 1, I become ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 15 Apr 85 12:58:05 EST (Monday) Subject: Re: Computerized Comic: SHATTER From: Brenda Dan didn't mention that the first issue of "Shatter" is as the back-up story of First Comics' "Jon Sable Freelance" (June issue , I believe). I also read a lot of SF & adventure comics (for adventure, JSF is definitely my current favorite. The artwork and the stories are excellent and I highly reccomend them. Note: The June issue of JSF is a segway into the July issue and is therefore more enjoyable if you know the characters. The July issue, "Homecoming, Part II" is excellent, typical JSF fare and good as a stand alone comic story). I was unimpressed with Shatter and think that it must be it could be done a lot better, both story wise and art wise. There have been two so far, both back-ups in JSF. ~Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 10:47 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Buckaroo Banzai soundtrack I would also like to know about a Buckaroo Banzai soundtrack. Post it here. I felt that the end title section should be made into a music video with scenes from the movie interspliced. Kind of like the Falcon and Snowman video by David Bowie. Brett Slocum ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 85 11:37:50 PST (Wednesday) From: Pugh.es@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Mad Max III Re: Would someone please tell me the correct title [of Mad Max III] Mad Max III Beyond Thunderdome, with Mel Gibson, and the autogyro pilot returning, and Tina Turner. /Eric ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Apr 85 1018-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #126 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 126 Today's Topics: Books - MacAvoy & Powers & Ads in Books & NYPD:2025 & Requests (2 msgs), Films - Star Trek IV & Ladyhawke & Silent Running (2 msgs) & Wizards, Miscellaneous - More Bookstore Addresses Wanted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Apr 85 10:55 PST From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: R.A. MacAvoy mention in LOCUS In the latest LOCUS, mention was made that R.A. MacAvoy had sold two fantasy titles to Bantam (actually, I'm not certain it which publisher), but neglected to mention the TITLES THEMSELVES. Anyone have an idea as to what they were (Book of Kells is not an answer--that's already in process, sort of)? Ron Cain, are you listening? So give already, if you are. Inquiring minds (i.e., readers with money burning holes in their pockets) want to know. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ From: petsd!cjh@topaz.arpa (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: Powers's zeroeth book Date: 16 Apr 85 18:23:06 GMT In a review of DINNER AT THE DEVIANT'S PALACE, E. Leeper referred to THE GATES OF ANUBIS as the author's "first" book. In fact, before that he wrote THE DRAWING OF THE DARK, a fantasy set in the seventeenth century (I think) at the Turkish siege of Vienna. Like ANUBIS, it is full of vivid detail; it is good reading. The "dark" referred to is a *very* special beer. Regards, Chris Full-Name: Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 10:46 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: ads ****** FLAME ON!!!! ***** One of my biggest gripes about paperback ads are the glossy cigarette ads that are bound into the book. Not only do I hate cigarette advertising, but these ads weaken the binding of the book. You also cannot tear them out without ruining the book. I have stopped buying books that have these things in them (Hint to publishers). ****** FLAME OFF ****** The ads on the last pages of the book don't bother me, and neither do the ads like the SF Book Club that are stuck into the middle of the book. These are easy to ignore or throw away, they do not devalue the book, and they can contain useful information. Brett Slocum ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Apr 85 11:45:02-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: yet more nypd 2025 (bleagh) I can't say all that much about NYPD 2025 because I only read the first three chapters while I was eating at a Round Table, and left the book there. Those chapters deal with an incredibly poorly written battle scene (mainly brains leaking out of smashed skulls) and some of the most stupid characters and situations I have ever heard of. This said battle goes on at least 25 pages, between our hero, a vet who seemingly does not know the meaning of pain, some silly NYPD members, and the "Production Security Police" or somesuch, a band of movie-studio guards who have been given extra-legal authority (don't ask me why....) At least the author has enough pride to use a pseudonym. I use the word author advisedly, however. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 85 9:27:21 EST From: Catherine Cunningham Subject: Book Request I just finished Brunner's "The Crucible of Time" and really enjoyed the idea of a book totally about an "alien" society. Can anyone give me pointers to any other novels/short stories in which there is no human presence? Thanks, ccunningham@bbncct.arpa ------------------------------ From: pegasus!naiman@topaz.arpa (Ephrayim J. Naiman) Subject: Another one of those "Do you recall this book..." Date: 17 Apr 85 04:29:49 GMT All I remember is that some experiment went haywire and the world keeps reliving the same day over and over again. The people spend the first part of every day remembering their situation through hints they left themselves the day before. Any ideas ? Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4,allegra,ahuta,maxvax,cbosgd,lzmi,...]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Apr 85 17:11:01-PST From: Terry Bartlett Subject: Star Trek IV Someone asked a while back about STIV: The Trial of Captain Kirk. I am fairly sure that this is at least the working title, and I have heard (from what I consider to be a reliable source) that the plot(s) will go along these lines: First of all, Captain Kirk is in a lot of trouble for disobeying orders, stealing a starship, and destroying it. It seems to be Starfleet's intention to nail him to the wall this time, even if he is one of their greatest heroes. The rest of the crew of the Enterprise have been reassigned. However, one thing survives the destruction of the Enterprise: the "flight recorder"(or whatever its equivalent is). This just happens to contain all the information related to Project Genesis, and the Klingons have sent an entire battle group to recover it. The Federation is not entirely ignorant; they know what is happening in the Mutara sector. So, they send Captain Sulu, Checkov, Uhura, and assorted others in a newly designed Federation Stealth ship to recover the recorder. A nice plan, but they blow it, and are captured by the Klingons. While this is taking place, Starfleet has been spreading subspace propaganda about Kirk's trial, apparently so that he can be used for a final suicide mission. They give him a choice: even though he has pled not guilty, and has absolutely no chance to win, they will let him off if he recovers the recorder and rescues Sulu. The only equipment that he has to use is the Klingon ship he captured in STIII. This appears to be a movie based on war, and as it turns out, Kirk succeeds, and in the process destroys a good deal of the Klingon battle group. The only thing wrong with this version is that George Takei has said that they intend to remain fairly close to information that exists about the ST universe. If this is the case, then the enemies here will probably be the Romulans and not the Klingons. (remember the Organian peace treaty?) Also, this is probably going to be the last ST movie with the original cast, as some characters are supposed to be killed, this time for good. For what it's worth, Terry ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: LADYHAWKE Date: 15 Apr 85 13:02:08 GMT LADYHAWKE A film review by Mark R. Leeper Based on boxoffice results, I may be one of the very few people in the world who liked DRAGONSLAYER. I very simply thought that it was the best historical fantasy film that I had ever seen. Up to that point, I would have judged films like THE SEVENTH VOYAGE OF SINBAD and JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS as my favorites. But DRAGONSLAYER for the first time had a plot that would have made a decent fantasy novel, and that was head and shoulders above anything similar I'd ever seen on the screen. When I saw the coming attractions for LADYHAWKE, for the first time I thought a film was coming out that could be comparable in quality to DRAGONSLAYER. Well, it didn't replace DRAGONSLAYER as my top historical fantasy but it easily comes in second. LADYHAWKE is a beautiful fantasy film set in Medieval France. It follows the adventures of a likeable young pickpocket played unexpectedly well by Matthew Broderick. He escapes from the evil bishop's dungeons and is about to be re-captured when he is saved by the mysterious stranger Navarre (Rutger Hauer) who travels with a hawk on his arm. At night man and hawk disappear and are replaced by a beautiful woman who is often seen in the company of a large and fierce wolf. The man and woman, it seems, are lovers forever together but forever apart. A curse by the jealous bishop turns Navarre into a wolf at night; his lover Isabeau becomes a hawk by day. The story has a marvelous feel of real legend about it, and a haunting beauty in the way it has been visualized on the screen. Matthew Broderick's Phillipe is the main character and at the same time comic relief. Broderick incessantly talks to God like Tevya does in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF, but not always so reverently. He seems much better in the role than I expected. Rutget Hauer is nearly perfect as the mysterious Navarre. And lovely Michelle Pfeiffer of SCARFACE and INTO THE NIGHT is terrible as Navarre's lover. The problem is that she talks like an American and wears lipstick and eye-liner. She fits into the Medieval setting only slightly better than Pacman. And speaking of things out of place, Andrew Powell's rock score is totally inappropriate. He takes scenes that otherwise have a beautiful period and wreaks real havoc with the spirit and texture of the film. A couple more faults, if you please. The camera work is usually very good, but the use of color filters, particularly for the sky, is overdone. And speaking of the sky, if you watch the moon and know some astronomy, you will see something happen that is actually an impossibility. The script is generally good, but too much of the legend we are simply told rather than shown. Also note the anachronistic use of terrycloth. Yet with all these faults, and more, this remains one beautiful and enjoyable fantasy film. The settings, the photography, Hauer's acting, the idea of the story are all marvelously realized. If this film dies at the boxoffice the way DRAGONSLAYER did, perhaps modern audiences don't deserve good fantasy. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper But, on May 1, I become ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Silent Running explained Date: 16 Apr 85 02:38:58 GMT Jonathan D. Trudel has some interesting explanations for SILENT RUNNING's problems. I can accept most of his answers. I think he is wrong about the following: >>Also, there wasn't any reason for Earth to order them destroyed. >>... and the ships could have orbited endlessly at no cost to >>Earth. > >A good answer, but completely wrong. The ships were cargo vessels >that were orbitting idly. The decision to destroy the pods was a >business move. It was decided that the ships could be better used >for what they were designed, and that was to carry cargo to Earth >colonies, and I remember seeing the logo of American Airlines on >the side of the ship (Valley Forge?). As for a reason, do you >think that the shrewd businessman of the 20-whateverth century >would tie up several of his most valuable transport ships by having >them hold a 'useless' cargo that brings no monetary gains? Not >bloody likely! He is implying that the domes cannot operate by themselves without the transport. That makes the ending really sad. You see, Freeman Lowell dies by blowing up the transport that was connected to his dome. The final scene shows the apparently doomed dome floating by itself. If it has a chance to survive, any of the domes could have without the valuable transports. It is just the part that was planned to be blown up -- the domes -- that Freeman seems to think can run by itself perserving the forests. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Silent Running and loss of oxygen Date: 16 Apr 85 02:53:52 GMT I have to admit that it is at least conceivable that the oceans create enough oxygen so that the dire consequences of my first posting could be avoided. I bow to the people who have a better background in ecology than I do (and that is possibly quite a few people on the net.) I find is hard to believe that the land would be so polluted that the forests would have to be shot into space and the oceans could keep on churning out oxygen unscathed. I also still contend the jump to the new ecosystem could be pretty grim (I am responding to the net as a whole, I think mouse agreed with me on this point). Also, I am not sure how secure I would feel if I lived in Kansas with all the oxygen coming from the oceans. :-) I did not cry at the end of SILENT RUNNING, but I can understand that some people did. This is a "go for the emotions" film. I think as a 7-year-old I cried when I read CHARLOTTE'S WEB. That doesn't mean that I think it plausible that spiders really do try to save the lives of pigs. I didn't even then. As a sad story, SILENT RUNNING is a matter of taste. My objection was more about logical flaws. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #106 Date: 16 Apr 85 03:12:20 GMT I can't find the original of this response so I will follow up on Barry's response. I am not responding to him but the original submitter. (If you follow that, perhaps you can explain it to me.) >I saw the film WIZARDS again recently. Though admittedly it has a >number of flaws, this is perhaps my favorite sf/fantasy movie, and >it outdoes most of the mainstream movies I can think of too. >Anyone else have any comment here? I find that when I say I do like a film, I can often get three or four responses that agree. When I say I don't like a film and step back, the net seems to turn into Anzio. Well, once more sticking my head in the lion's mouth, I didn't like WIZARDS. Avatar was supposed to be for everything good like guzzling liquor, having semi-clad maidens around, cigars, etc. He was anti-technology. Except for perhaps the maidens he was against everything I am for and for everything I am against. And if he was against the evil use of technology for force, how does he explain how he finally kills his brother. Isn't that technology for power at its worse? This is another film that doesn't really have a very clear idea what it is trying to say. All it is saying is what the author likes automatically leads to a better world and what he doesn't like leads to chaos. There were also charges at the time the film came out that some of the characters (like Necron-90) were stolen from another artist's work. I don't remember clearly what the fuss was all about, but it shows how sincere the preaching of the film was. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Apr 85 17:24:09-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: More bookstore addresses wanted I've received several of the addresses I was looking for, and as part of the replies ave also gained a few more bookstores that I need full mailing addresses for: Book Nook Mile-Hi Comics xxx? xxx? Atlanta, GA xxxxx? Denver, CO xxxxx? Book World Powell's Books xx? Chapel Street xxx? (11th and Burnside) New Haven, xx xxxxx? Portland, Oregon xxxxx? The Foundation Bookstore The Tech Coop xx? Rosemary St xxx? (MIT student center on Mass. Ave.) Chapel Hill, NC xxxxx? Cambridge, MA xxxxx? Thanks, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Apr 85 1014-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #127 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 127 Today's Topics: Books - Ford & Doc Smith & Vernor Vinge & A Request Answered, Television - Jetsons (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: THE DRAGON WAITING Date: 16 Apr 85 06:50:26 GMT > ecl@ahutb.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: > THE DRAGON WAITING by John M. Ford > The problem, I think, is that I'm not a historian. I know >some history, but there is so much history in this book--and it's >not all real. Though the book is chock-a-block with real >historical characters (Richard III, the Medicis, Louis XI, etc.), >no one seems to be quite the way the history book describe them--in >fact, none of them seem to be Christian. Everyone seems to belong >to some strange cult or other, each with its own special symbols >and rites. Since my knowledge of *real* Fifteenth Century history >is perhaps not all that it should be (especially in Italy and >France, where most of the beginning of the book takes place), I >spent most of the novel telling myself that I was merely confused. I, too, recently read THE DRAGON WAITING and had much the same problem. Then, I read in the notes that Ford was attempting to present a "solution" or scenario to the "Missing Princes" problem. The problem being that before Richard III, a reasonably nice guy for a noble, took the throne of England his nephews (who had better claims to the throne) died. The problem is that no one has been able to prove who or what killed them. It's quite possible that they could have died of some random fever, on the other hand, somebody who favored Richard (or Richard himself) could have had them murdered. Either way, there's no conclusive evidence as to the cause of their deaths. Once I knew that, I found myself re-reading various portions of novel and everything fell into place just beautifully. (Re-reading more carefully also cleared up some other points I was confused about). So, to summarize, I think THE DRAGON WAITING is a *fantastic* book. Ford's proposed solution is just mind-boggling. As a reader, you have to really *read* this book. It's not a book to be simply skimmed. Ford is a *very* precise, able, and efficient writer, one of the best wordsmiths I've ever read. He tends to write just enough to create the effect he's after -- and no more. He also tends to give the readers just enough information to figure out what's going on and why -- and no more. This kind of precision in writing is very difficult to pull off because if the writer miscalculates, he can leave the reader very confused. On the other hand, if he does things just right, he can leave the reader with an amazing sense of completion when the focal idea of the entire novel makes itself clearer and clearer as the last few chapter slowly unfold. In THE DRAGON WAITING, Ford does it just right. Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr ------------------------------ From: chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Another Lensman Story? Date: 16 Apr 85 07:46:46 GMT ran@ho95b.UUCP (RANeinast) writes: >In "Expanded Universe", Heinlein, in a tribute to E. E. (Doc) >Smith, says that there was to have been a seventh novel (not >"Masters of the Vortex"--that seems to me to be a side-stream >novel), that Smith had it all worked out in detail (but not >necessarily written down), and that he told Heinlein the ending. >All Heinlein says about it is that the ending "develops by >inescapable logic from clues in CHILDREN OF THE LENS." > >Anybody out there know anything else? Does the story exist? What >are the clues? I have a few ideas but would like to see what all >of you think. Can you say "story cycle"? I thought you could. From the clues in COTL: 1) The Kinnison kids will find a planet and settle down in a nice, loving, incestous relationship and be the Guardians of Civilization in their spare time. 2) After a long period of time, a new threat to civilization will develop: one that the Guardians won't be able to handle by themselves. 3) The Guardians will then attempt to breed a race to supplant them as the Guardians of Civilization. 4) As a by-product of the struggle and hardship necessary to produce such a new race, I think the old Civilization will be partially or totally destroyed. 5) The races involved in the breeding plan will of necessity become the primary moving forces behind the new Civilization much as the Rigellians, Tellurians (humans to you uneducated people), Velantians, and Palanians are the primary movers in the present Civilization. 6) Steps 1-5 have already happened as the reader is presumably a third-level intellect of the new race. 7) What is left is the presumably final confrontation followed by the "passing on" of the current Guardians of Civilization. Note: There are actually two separate Civilizations. The Civilization that the readers know as CIVILIZATION and the civilization of the Guardians. Due to the fact that full knowledge of the function and purpose of the Guardians would damage an immature civilization (read less than third level) badly, the two civilizations will remain essentially separate with the mature civilization functioning as Guardian to the immature one. Those who reach the third level would probably live a "normal" lifetime and then simply fade away to join the Guardians. Given the amount of time between major threats, the Guardians will probably include more humans and members of other various races. My theory is also that most of humanity (and some other races) will be destroyed. Instead of attempting to prevent damage to the current Civilization by premature intervention, the Guardians will instead allow the immature Civilization to "suffer". The prime movers of the immature Civilization will of necessity bear the brunt of the damage done as they will be the prime targets for those wishing to corrupt or weaken the current Civilization and they will be the ones doing most of the resisting. The new threat will mark the beginning of the decline of the human race (and other races) as we know it. I don't think anything I've outlined is too far-fetched as I believe I can back up *everything* I've proposed. I can also understand Smith's belief that NOBODY would publish this story. Talk about depressing. Most (if not all) of the conventional human race either gets killed off or subverted before some new race(s) rise to pull the fat out of the fire. Then at the end of the story, the Tellurian (and other) Guardians of Civlization will either wander off into some other dimension or commit mass suicide depending on your interpretation. Nice, huh? I have to admit, though, that I wish Smith had written the story. I'd like to read it for real. Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: TRUENAMES (minor spoiler) Date: 16 Apr 85 18:10:38 GMT TRUE NAMES by Vernor Vinge Bluejay, 1985, $6.95. A book review by Mark R. Leeper TRUE NAMES is a science fiction story with a very good word-of-mouth reputation not entirely deserved. The story takes place on two planes, our own and that of a computer game universe. The second plane combines the ultimate in computer games with the ultimate in illegal hacking. The players appear to each other only as their game-playing alter-egos, without learning who each other really are. Our hero, Mr. Slippery, has been blackmailed by the real plane government to try to capture a sort of ultimate amoral hacker known as the Mailman. While I was unconvinced while I was reading the novel that all the computer technology is a likely outgrowth of current technology, other people I have discussed the story with were impressed with how well Vinge has taken the elements of classical fantasy and made them possible with computer technology. As a straight fantasy story, TRUE NAMES is flawed. It has most of its action towards the middle, and while it promises an important confrontation for near the end of the story, it sidesteps the need to have it. In fact, it is structured more like a long story followed by a short story with the same characters. The illustrations in the Bluejay edition do not add a whole lot of wonder to the story. I think several of the artists that Jim Frenkel is getting for Bluejay Books are not a whole lot more visually imaginative than his readers. Most of the illustrations appear a page or two before or after the action they illustrate, and in at least one case putting an illustration too soon telegraphs an important plot twist. The illustrations are supposed to add to the effect of the story and these detract. The story is followed by an afterword by Marvin Minsky, who ties the story into his artificial intelligence work, but somehow his enthusiasm for TRUE NAMES seems a matter of form for an afterword. His enthusiasm for his own work may be somewhat greater than his enthusiasm for the story. In fairness, I should add that it is clear from Minsky's lectures and some of the illustrations he gives that he is a science fiction fan. TRUE NAMES has enough good ideas to make it a worthwhile story, but it is not really clear to me that the new Bluejay edition has enhanced much more than the price. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper But, on May 1, I become ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 01:47:44 MST From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) To: ihnp4!pegasus!naiman@utah-cs Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you recall this book..." This sounds an awful lot like 'Sketches Among the Ruins of My Mind' by Phil Farmer. It's not a book, though, unless Farmer turned it into one and I never heard about it; it's a novella, originally published in Harry Harrison's NOVA 3 and reprinted in THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR #3 edited by Terry Carr. I recommend hunting for it in the latter book, since 1973 was such an amazingly good year for sf. To give you an idea, just look at some of the stories from that year: 'Rumfuddle' by Jack Vance; 'The Deathbird' by Harlan Ellison; 'Of Mist, and Grass, and Sand' by Vonda McIntyre; 'The Death of Dr. Island' by Gene Wolfe; and 'The Women Men Don't See' by James Tiptree, Jr. I consider 'Rumfuddle' and 'Dr. Island' to be close to the top of my list of all-time favorite stories, and the others are not far away... Just happened to be poking through that BEST a few weeks ago, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 85 11:10:18 EST From: Jon Trudel Subject: Jetsons' Robot Dave Fuchs writes- >... what's the name of the robot that almost takes over George >Jetson's job? Ahhh, a question I can finally answer briefly. It was Uniblab, and it was built at a cost of approximately one billion dollars, a mere drop in the bucket for Spacely Sprockets. Jonathan D. Trudel ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 85 12:07:05 EST From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: George Jetson's rival Twas UNIBLAB. It appeared in a couple of episodes, too. Tangentially, while appreciating all of those Hanna-Barbera attempts to make animation a viable product for prime-time TV, I have to say that I prefer THE FLINTSTONES to THE JETSONS. Both were derivative, of course (F. from THE HONEYMOONERS and J. from BLONDIE), but it seems as if F. transcended its sources, getting into a very funny series of parodies of other TV shows, movies, famous personalities, etc., whereas J., despite the futuristic trappings, kept with standard sitcom plots. Also, as far as SF goes, F. was the better series. J. simply added gadgets to standard plots (flying cars, tube transportation, food-a-matic, robot maids) while F. derived part of its humor from showing how modern gadgets might have worked in the Stone Age (mastodons on wheels as vacuum cleaners, birds with horns tied to their beaks as the tone arms on record players). THE FLINTSTONES provided a plausible explanation, surely an important criterion for SF (although I still wonder about prehistoric TV and radio...). Always a fan of inappropriate technology, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 85 15:47:43 EST From: Chuck Kennedy To: drf@su-ai.ARPA Subject: Computers in SF: names The name of the robot that nearly takes over George Jetson's job is Uniblab. My favorite line: "Planet poker, planet poker, Jupiter gin, Jupiter gin..." -chuck kennedy ------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Apr 85 21:58:44-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Computer names.... As has been noted, all the computers in Asimovs' Multivac stories end in the letters 'ac' Examples: Multivac, Planetary AC, and Cosmic AC. For 10 bonus points, does anyone remember what the AC stands for? Reply to me, and I will post the winner in a week or so. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Apr 85 08:15:13-PST From: Jackie Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #124 In WarGames the kid is trying to break into the computer to play some games (those crazy hacker-types!) and after seeing a video-taped interview with the scientist who worked on the computer hits upon the idea of trying the scientist' son's name as a userid. As I recall the son's name was Joshua, wasn't it? As I remember it the computer thought the kid was Joshua and addressed him as such. I thought it was a realistic scenario of how someone might get unauthorized access to a computer--security is not great when you use your name, initials, phone-number, kid's name ... as passwords. JB Oh-Did I say "...computer thought...?", of course we all know that computers don't think! ------------------------------ From: skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA (D S Kitchen) Date: 17 Apr 1985 1414-EST (Wednesday) Subject: "Wargames" computer >I seem to remember that the computer in Wargames also liked to be >called Jerimy or something like that. > Jim Rachiele No, Jim. Its name is not Jerimy, as you thought, but it is something like that. It seems that the designer of our favorite WOPR had a son. The designer often addressed the computer by his son's name (which also happens to be the secret password for the system), Joshua. Scott Kitchen ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 16 Apr 1985 19:26:21-PST From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: More trivia (Multivac) A little bit more trivia - Why did Asimov name his computer Multivac? ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 1985 1746 PST From: Alvin Wong Subject: Computers in SF I have not seen anyone mention "BOLO" by Keith Laumer. Bolos are fighting machines that resemble tanks but are intelligent and autonomous. The book consists of short stories that loosely follow the development of Bolos. Memorable short stories for me were "The Last Command" and "War Relic". Good emotional stuff. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Apr 85 1052-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #128 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 20 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 128 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (5 msgs) & Herbert & Powers, Films - Mad Max III & Ladyhawke (2 msgs) Miscellaneous - Roman Soldiers' Talk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky) Subject: Re: Re: NofTheBeast - True STINKER Date: 17 Apr 85 06:11:08 GMT > He grew up reading Heinlein and pays homage to him in many of his > books. I grew up watching cartoons on Saturday morning, but I out-grew those, too! To say that Heinlein is self-indulgent in the greater part of his novels is understatement indeed. I haven't bothered with ``Number of the Beast'' but, for my money, to say that ``Friday'' was up to RAH's standards is pretty damning. It was hundreds of pages of non-story mascarading as character development. Heinlein has never shown that he has any depth of understanding when it comes to real human beings, but his portrayals of women are simply travesties! ``Friday'' is, as I had expected, just that. Now, before you scream about unfairness, I liked Heinlein's juvenile stories and I liked ``The Moon is a Harsh Mistress''. When Bob stays in his place (writing hard-SF idea stories) he's OK; when he starts to think that he's a Writer of Merit and a Philosopher, that's when the bullshit starts flying and that's when I drop his book for something more enlightening. Like scrubbing my bathroom, or taking out the trash. Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 85 23:27:49 EST From: Bob Webber Subject: Sir Isaac Newton and TNOTB > From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker) > Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB? I hope not. of course not. however, TNOTB is in essence a large joke. people who did not get it think it was a major waste of time and flame. people who did get it realize that you can't explain a joke to someone who didn't get it; so they have less reason to write. > One character there that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir > Isaac Newton. i believe that was the name of one of the Venusians (sp?) (a dragon-like race inhabiting Venus) in one of his juveniles, Star Beast. these sentients "spoke" with humans using a voder (a speech synthesizer that one could play like an accordian). as this memory is over a decade old, take it with a grain of salt. BOB (webber@rutgers.arpa) ------------------------------ From: wanginst!ss@topaz.arpa (Sid Shapiro) Subject: Re: Number of the Beast Date: 18 Apr 85 01:09:08 GMT > Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB? Nope - I did too. > One character there that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir > Isaac Newton. Anybody know where this one came from?? Of course I don't have my library with me at the moment and I may get this wrong, but - I believe he was a character in _Between Worlds_ (is that the real title). The story, which I am a lot more sure of, is a boy, Don something, who does some traveling by himself, ends up on Venus during the Venusian revolt against Earth, fights with the rebellion. It turns out that he is carrying a secret message in his ring from his father to scientists on Venus which will enable them to do something which will help stop the war. Sound familiar? Sir Isaac was a Venusian scientist. / Sid / ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 19 Apr 1985 06:14:20-PST From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andrew Kenah, DTN 381-1576) Subject: Heinlein Answers Sir Isaac Newton (the dragon) appeared in one of Heinlein's Juveniles -- "Between Planets" (I think). Andy Libby first appeared in the short story "Misfit", first anthologized in "Revolt in 2100", later in "The Past Through Tomorrow". Andrew Kenah "Bibliography is just an accident." ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Number of the Beast Date: 16 Apr 85 15:51:22 GMT > Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB? I hope not. I can >see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should >all remember is that the whole book was deliberately done in a very >tongue-in-cheek manner. Anyone who has read alot of Heinlien's >work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the characters in >that zoo of a last chapter. One character there that I couldn't >recognize was the dragon, Sir Isaac Newton. Anybody know where this >one came from?? Sir Isaac was a major character in the book "Between Planets" ; he was a member of the dominant race on Venus. "Between Planets" was a pretty good juvenile (which I still re-read on occasion), and was interesting in that it seemed not to be connected very strongly to the future history. I remember that when I read "Friday" I ran into some internal evidence that connected "Friday" not only with "Gulf" (pretty explicit, that) but with "Starman Jones" and "Between Planets", so it looks like a whole 'nother future history in there.... By the way, I rather liked "Number of the Beast" myself, but then I liked "I Will Fear No Evil" as well. Another by the way: there were not only a lot of Heinlein's other characters in the end of NotB, but a number of real people as well: the "Sir Bela" that was mentioned is Poul Anderson in SCA guise. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) [Moderator's Note: Thanks to the following people who wrote with similar information: Bill Richard (x!wjr@topaz) Wayne Throop (rtp47!throopw@topaz) binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl ] ------------------------------ From: teddy!mjn@topaz.arpa (Mark J. Norton) Subject: Re: "Chapterhouse:Dune" Date: 18 Apr 85 14:04:26 GMT ****** Spoiler Warning ****** ****** Don't read unless you've read the book ****** > As for the very end (the last two or three pages), if Herbert was > trying to totally confuse the reader, he succeeded with me. I get > the feeling that he is about to push off in some totally new and > previously unmentioned direction. Beyond that, the conversation > between Daniel and Marty, two total unknowns who are introduced in > the last two pages (pruning roses, of all things!), has a lot of > the flavor of: "and then the little boy woke up." > > - Herb You weren't paying attention to the sub-plots! Three or four times during the book Duncan Idaho mentioned that he had visions of two people on the other side of some network of light. This couple spoke to him once or twice, and were seen in a garden of some sort. Heretics of and Chapterhouse: are both concerned with various peoples returning from the Scattering caused by the Tyrant (Leto II). Two of these are the Honored Matres and the Futars. The couple in the garden are another Scattered race: remants of the super-Face Dancers which fled their Tlielax masters. Now, put this together with the fact that Idaho and Sheeana fled to an unknown destination in a no-ship at the end of C: Dune and you get a sneak peek of Dune-7 (Beneath the Planet of the Lorna Dunes). Mark J. Norton decvax!genrad!panda!mjn mjn@sunspot ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 1985 23:01-PST Subject: Re: Powers' zeroeth book - SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #126 From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA There have been 5 (that's five) books published by Tim Powers. Some months ago Powers was on Hour-25 (a local [LA] Friday night radio show on Pacifica's KPFK concerning itself with SF - often abominable, but occasionally interesting when they have a good guest), and he referred to all 5. While skulking around a local used bookstore I came across one of them - Epitaph in Rust by Timothy Powers (you can tell it's the same guy because Ashbless gets mentioned early on and the hero is mutilated by the end of the book, odd that). It was published by Laser books some time in the 70s (it's on loan at the moment, so I can't be precise). It was published before any of the three currently in print, but has the same setting as Dinner at Deviant's Palace. In fact, it looks like the latter was built on the ruins of Epitaph. Anyway, it's about a monk who is forced to leave his monastery in the hills and make his way in post-apocalypse LA. Unknown to him the authorities (read androids) believe he possesses a valuable piece of information and attempt to capture him. He falls in with the political opposition who also happen to be Shakespearean actors. Fireworks ensue. While it doesn't reach the frenzied exuberance of The Anubis Gates, it still is a fun read. BTW, has anyone read the fifth Powers book? (I'm afraid I can't recall the name, but it's the one that isn't any of the following: Epitaph in Rust, The Drawing of the Dark, The Anubis Gates, Dinner at Deviant's Palace). mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 85 20:58:07 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: "Mad Max III" Last I heard, the American release title is to be "The Road Warrior II: Beyond Thunderdome". The issue is cloudy because "The Road Warrior" was known as "Mad Max II" in Australia. Peter Reiher ------------------------------ From: timeinc!dwight@topaz.arpa (Dwight Ernest) Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE Date: 16 Apr 85 11:52:09 GMT We saw LADYHAWKE this weekend. I must take issue with several of your points, and add a couple of comments, after reading your fine review, Mark. First, on Michelle Pfeiffer as Isabeau: We thought she was extraordinarily appropriate in the role. She's beautiful, impetuous, strong-willed, and, yes, anachronistic in these strengths and in her power and her sexuality. But it's attractive to speculate how a "modern woman" would fit into these medieval times, and LADYHAWKE does just that. Your review was more than just a mild spoiler, incidentally-- perhaps I'm slow, but one of the most marvelous parts of the film was in slowly making the connection between the hawk and Isabeau, and between the man and the wolf. I'm glad I didn't know about that before I saw it. And you didn't mention the horse--Goodness, that horse--the black stallion--was just incredible. Perhaps, given your other cast-related comments, you could at least have given credit to someone, somewhere, for having made a most extraordinary casting decision when they found that horse. Verdict: Don't miss it. Enjoy it. Especially with your SO--for the scene at the end is perhaps one of the most romantic and delightful scenes ever filmed, although it's simple. --Dwight Ernest KA2CNN \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight Time Inc. Edit./Prod. Tech. Grp., New York City Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523 Telemail: DERNEST/TIMECOMDIV/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST ------------------------------ From: ahutb!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE Date: 18 Apr 85 01:48:10 GMT >We saw LADYHAWKE this weekend. I must take issue with several of >your points, and add a couple of comments, after reading your fine >review, Mark. Well, I can't complain if you take issue and in the same breath call it a "fine" review. Thanks. >First, on Michelle Pfeiffer as Isabeau: We thought she was >extraordinarily appropriate in the role. She's beautiful, >impetuous, strong-willed, and, yes, anachronistic in these >strengths and in her power and her sexuality. That is not what I objected to. She just seems too American somehow. It doesn't help that I recently saw INTO THE NIGHT, but her accent seems all wrong. The makeup may have been a strong contributory factor, also. She just does not sound Medieval when she talks. Rutger Hauer, carried it off and I think Matthew Broderick was not too far out of place. I just never believed her character as coming out of that period. >Your review was more than just a mild spoiler, incidentally-- >perhaps I'm slow, but one of the most marvelous parts of the film >was in slowly making the connection between the hawk and Isabeau, >and between the man and the wolf. I'm glad I didn't know about >that before I saw it. By the time I saw the film I had heard the premise in presentations at science fiction conventions, in ads, on TV's At The Movies, in a presentation at a science fiction society by Joan Vinge who is writing the novel, etc. Also I contend it is almost impossible to review the film without giving that much away. Incidentally, none of these excuses would I find acceptable if the tables were turned and I had read just the USENET review before seeing the film. What can I say? I was desensitized by the advance publicity and I flubbed it. >And you didn't mention the horse--Goodness, that horse--the black >stallion--was just incredible. Perhaps, given your other >cast-related comments, you could at least have given credit to >someone, somewhere, for having made a most extraordinary casting >decision when they found that horse. Not a detail I am likely to notice. I thought that the horse looked good in BLACK STALLION, this one did not impress me so much, but it could be I just didn't notice. >Verdict: Don't miss it. Enjoy it. Especially with your SO--for >the scene at the end is perhaps one of the most romantic and >delightful scenes ever filmed, although it's simple. I actually thought this scene was a bit drawn out and for reasons I won't mention here, unrealistic. (Well, it is mostly for what most of the people are doing or not doing in this scene.) Incidentally this last paragraph of yours is something of a minor spoiler in itself. I have to agree with your verdict. I was impressed with the film. Thank you for following up on my review. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!ahutb!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Fri 19 Apr 85 04:48:31-CST From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Roman soldiers' talk ^^^^^^ How WOULD Roman soldiers talk? ^^^^^^ A little while back, someone complained at the use of distinctly modern locutions by Roman soldiers in an SF story. While seeing how something like that could "sit wrong" with a reader, I'd like to defend it in principle. In effect, the author must "translate", as much from an alien era and culture as from the actual language (in this case, presumably Vulgar Latin-- and, no, I don't mean "dirty", tho since they were soldiers, it undoubtedly was). The author has 2 choices, either to use archaic English to convey an aura of antiquity, or to match the content with some corresponding contemporary expressions. From the examples cited, as that author wasn't writing about Ancient Noble Romans, he rightly equated their modes of expression with their counterparts in this era. Of course, if the author is also a scholar, s/he could use direct translations of what would have probably been the actual parlance used. But even across languages in contemporary cultures, direct translations of language A can be utterly wrong rendered into language B. I remember, around 1970, vetting some translations of French romances in which sweet little old ladies would exclaim, "My God!" It was an \accurate/ translation. Sweet little old \French/ ladies say "Mon Dieu!" and neither they nor their hearers would think anything of it. But NOT sweet little old ladies in 1970 USA! A more truly accurate translation would have been something like "My goodness!" or "Gracious!" The original significance was the same, but rather than "real swearing", these expressions are euphemisms as proper to their speakers as military jargon to soldiers. And speaking of real translations of SF from French, I'll always wonder whether the mention of "the stars in their orbits" on the 1st page of YOLANDA, GIRL OF THE EROSPHERE (Dominique Verseau, Dell, 1975) was a mis-translation, or a direct indication of how ghod- awful the book was going to be. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Apr 85 1125-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #129 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 129 Today's Topics: Books - Dick & Heinlein (5 msgs) & McCaffrey & Saberhagen, Films - Silent Running, Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 15:27:59 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: "Do you recall this book..." Ephrayim J. Naiman (pegasus!naiman@topaz.arpa) writes: > All I remember is that some experiment went haywire and the world > keeps reliving the same day over and over again. The people spend > the first part of every day remembering their situation through > hints they left themselves the day before. There was a Philip Dick short story something like this (I can't remember the title! Bibliography is but a minor hobby with me.) The town in the story (not the whole world) is an artificial recreation of a real town, and some company uses the people (who constantly relive the same day, with variations) as test subjects for new advertising techniques. The story concerns one man who, of course, figures out that Something Is Wrong and eventually escapes the town, only to find the edge of the enormous (to him) table that the model city is sitting on . . . There was another Dick story about people who enter the bodies of Barbie and Ken dolls for relaxation. Normally they forget who they really are while in the doll bodies, but one group of people have little notes pasted to the bathroom mirrors in the Barbie play-houses; the notes say (for example) "YOU ARE NOT KEN. YOU ARE BOB DOBBS, A REAL HUMAN BEING". These people preferred to live in the fantasy world as themselves. Does this help? Does anyone know the titles of these stories? --Peter Alfke (jpa144@cit-vax) ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 19 Apr 1985 06:47:49-PST From: moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN From: 381-2102) Subject: Heinlein story information, and a rebuttal > Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB? I hope not. I can > see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should > all remember is that the whole book was deliberately done in a > very tongue-in-cheek manner. Anyone who has read a lot of > Heinlein's work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the > characters in that zoo of a last chapter. One character there > that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir Isaac Newton. > Anybody know where this one came from?? The Venusian dragon Sir Isaac Newton, was introduced in "Between Planets", as a fairly high-ranking scientist and politician among the dragon society on Venus. The society was VERY highly regarded by the humans on Venus. > I didn't know I was in a minority: I also liked Time Enough for > Love. All of the Lazarus Long stuff that I've read(TEfL, > Methuselah's Children) was good. TEfL was an excellent, indepth > look at a most unique individual: the two thousand year old > man(not to be confused with Mel Brooks). I enjoyed the episodic > style, the notebook, the anecdotes, etc. Maybe I'm strange, but I > liked it as much as Stranger in a Strange Land and The Moon is a > Harsh Mistress. > > BTW, can anyone tell me the name of the short story that has > Andrew Jackson Libby in it? It tells about his early days in some > space navy. His phenomenal mathematical ability is first noticed. Andy Libby was introduced in the short story "Misfit", which came out in the "Green Hills of Earth" collection. He was a green (sometimes literally green because of space-sickness) recruit in the future equivalent of the Depression era Civilian Construction Corps, which took out-of-work young people and gave them government funded construction jobs. In this case, they were building on and moving asteroids to be used as long-range communications stations between Mars and Earth (I believe). SET FLAME/MILD Since we have heard so many flames from people who despise anything RAH has done since (fill in the blank, but its always either Stranger in a Strange Land, or they include that in the bad books), it is refreshing to hear from people who like most/all of his books. I have read everything that he has written that I can find, and buy every new book of his that comes out as soon as they hit the street. I like the overwhelming majority of his work, with only a few exceptions (Farnhams Freehold I found boring). I enjoyed Time Enough For Love very much, and agree that the episodic style was refreshing and interesting. I thoroughly enjoyed the final scene(s) in Number of the Beast, since I encountered so many old friends (Sir Isaac was one of the most pleasurable, since I hadn't thought about him in years). I liked Friday, even though I wonder about Baldwins incompetence in picking a deputy who would basically destroy his organization and screw over all of his employees after he died. Heinlein lovers unite! We have nothing to lose but some flames! Ken Moreau ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 10:48 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Number of the Beast tNotB is not one my my favorites of Heinlein's, but it doesn't deserve the complete flames which have been heaped on it in recent issues. Admittedly the characters spend far too long arguing about who's in control rather than solving their problems, but if viewed as a consideration of interactions of people to authority, and of acquiring responsibility, its not bad. The last part was an interesting bit of nostalgia, seeing all the old characters in an unlikely setting. By the way, Sir Isaac Newton is from RAH's 'planetary revolt' novel set mainly on Venus. I believe the title is "Between Planets", for the hero was born in orbit and can claim citizenship on several planets. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 10:41 PST Subject: Sir Isaac Newton From: A. Marina Fournier To: dolqci!mike@Topaz.ARPA Sir Isaac Newton is a Venerian (s.k.a Venusian) Dragon in Between Planets, one of RAH's juveniles, which I enjoyed very much. Delightful tale of an adolescent suddenly caught in a very explosive political situation far from home. Sir Isaac says things like... Shucks, Marina ------------------------------ To: Slocum@hi-multics.arpa Subject: Re: Time Enough for Love - Early Libby story Date: 19 Apr 85 09:11:46 PST (Fri) From: Jim Hester The story which described the Space Navy discovering Libby's mathematical talents was "Misfit". It appears in: The Past Through Tomorrow (collection of Heinlein's works) Minds Unleashed (edited by Groff Conklin) Astounding Science Fiction, November 1939 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 85 17:37:47-EST (Fri) From: Stabron%xls-plexus01.amc@amc-hq.arpa To: dolqci!mike%topaz.arpa@amc-hq.arpa Subject: Heinlein mike, You are definitely not the only one who liked NotB. I too (and my daughter) could recognize most of the characters at the end. We loved!!! it. Especially me!!! I recognized almost all of the characters too, and the books on their lists were mostly on my favorite list too. Sir Isaac Newton was a Venerian "dragon" appearing in _Between Planets_. The copy I have is by DelRey Books and was published in 1981. The first publication was in 1951. It is one of the "juvenile" books. (Of course, I still re-read it periodically). Sir Isaac speaks with the aid of a voder/vocoder since he cannot approximate English. He was one of the ones I was most tickled to see again in NotB since I don't think he ever appeared anywhere else. It is terrific to find another died-in-the-wool afficionado of RAH. Sue Tabron ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ir278@topaz.arpa (Paul Anderson) Subject: Pern Question Date: 20 Apr 85 07:49:49 GMT I was thumbing through the Atlas of Pern when it dawned upon me to calculate the size of the planet. Based on the distances between time zones, I found that Pern was approximately the size of Saturn's moon Rhea - one _eighth_ the diameter of Earth! (half that of the moon) Pern must be pretty damn dense if it has gravity anywhere near that on Earth (the densest planet in our solar system). Perhaps this is why those huge dragons can fly so easily? "It's not me that's mad, it's the rest of the world, I'm the only sane one." Paul Anderson (And'rson) UC San Diego ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 85 11:19 PST From: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Saberhagen I just finished reading Fred Saberhagen's Book of Swords trilogy (available from the SF Book Club as /The Complete Book of Swords/), and thought a few comments might be in order. First, I thought an earlier book based in the same milieu two thousand years earlier, /Empire of the East/, is truly one of the best SF or Fantasy novels I've ever read. It seems to be standard operating procedure now for a publisher to release a blurb from a 'respected author' favorably comparing their latest fantasy release to /The Lord of the Rings/. /Empire of the East/ is the only novel I've yet read that comes anywhere near this pretty unreasonable expectation. You can bet that my enjoyment of his earlier work set some high expectations the Swords trilogy had to live up to. Second, I read the book quickly. It was certainly readable, as is most of Saberhagen's stuff, and on the first reading of such a work, I'll generally rip through the book in a matter of hours. As I did. So, my thoughts on these books are not particularly deep. ****** Mild Spoiler ****** Something to keep in mind when reading the Swords trilogy is that it was written to be the database for a computer game. (?!) To my knowledge, no such game has yet appeared, but occasionally I could see situations that were eminently transferable to a micro game. In the second book when the good guys were in a cylindrical room with twelve doors, only one of which led to safety, for example. Some of these events struck me as being unpleasantly 'old hat', and to some extent ruined what might have been an even better book. The biggest flaw of the books, however, was that the author several times killed off one of the main characters, only to reveal to the reader later (sometimes MUCH later) that the character wasn't really dead after all. This led to lots of joyful reunions which were by and large and mercifully short. This is not to say that I don't appreciate a good unkillable character, but one is my limit, and subtle hints that he/she is still alive and conniving are greatly appreciated. The character of the Emperor is a perfect example of this, but several others seem to be brought back for no apparent reason. ****** End Spoiler ****** The Swords trilogy is not the best of its genre, but it is still a worthwhile read. The second book had a tendency to drag, but the first and third really sparkled. Maybe in another two thousand years we'll get a sequel. --- JohnnyT By the way, the respected author comparing /Empire of the East/ to /Lord of the Rings/ was Niven. "Give 'em hell, Larry." ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Silent Running and loss of oxygen Date: 19 Apr 85 04:17:46 GMT >> Removing forests will cause us to lose a lot of topsoil >> immediately and knock great gaping holes in the ecosystem in >> other ways I'm sure -- is there an ecologist out there who can >> elaborate for us? > > Loss of the world's tropical forests would have several > unfortunate consequences: As I recall, loss of the world's > temperate forests would have some impact but nothing like the dire > consequences of the rain forests' destruction. Of course, a large > amount of the system's nutrients and organic matter is tied up in > the temperate forest's soil, so erosion renders the land useless > for agriculture. It's been a number of years since I studied > environmental sciences, so I hope others can add to this or patch > the holes in my discussion. > > -- Bill Ingogly Oh, thank you Bill Ingogly and the other gentle-person (whose name I unfortunately don't have...sorry, 'bout that...) for a little sanity. I have been reading SF-LOVERS for a long time, and have become REALLY dismayed by the numerous statements about Silent Running. Now, whether you like the movie or not is a matter of opinion, and that's half the fun of reading book and movie reviews...BUT.... good grief, I could not believe the number of people who thought (or seemed to think, correct me if I'm wrong...) that eliminating the world's forests is no big shakes! Yeesh! Certainly, the oxygen supply would continue (for a while, anyway) from algae, but that isn't the end of the story. Plants wuz here furst, and animals depend on them...period. It would eliminate a chunk of the food chain, increase surface erosion, send a lotta dust into the atmosphere, disturb the nitrogen cycle, and a trillion other things that we as mere mortals could only guess at... Sorry if it sounds like a flame without a warning, but seemingly flagerant disregard for ecology flares up a strong "Watt" signal in my brain.... there, I had my little say, now back to our regularly scheduled programme.. --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 02:42:16 pst From: uci-icsa!csuf!sabre@Berkeley Subject: computers in sf The CYBORG and the SORCERERS By Lawrence Watt-Evans This is a book about IRU cyborg (Independent Reconnaissance Unit) whose mission is to solo pilot a ship, and play the role of spy and saboteur. He has to determine the capablility of each planet he came across to launch an attack on Old Earth and if possible to destroy its ability to attack. He was also to capture any new weapons he came across, so they could be duplicated by his side back on Mars. A computer was included on the mission to insure loyalty, and to set off the thermite bomb at the base of his skull. This mission could never end until his death since Earth lost the war and now there was no one alive to give them the release or recall code. IRU 205 code named Slant had been on this mission for 14 years. Slant then came across a planet in which the computer had detected "gravitational anomalies" and he had to find out why. It turns out that after the planet had been attacked by Old Earth and bombed back from a nuclear age to a level of bow and arrow a few people gain use of psi abilities and become wizards. This book and combines science and fantasy into a very good story. Jeff Ellis ..!ucbvax!ucivax!csuf!sabre ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker) Subject: Re: More trivia (Multivac) Date: 19 Apr 85 18:48:55 GMT > A little bit more trivia - Why did Asimov name his computer > Multivac? I always thought it was a pun on the original "UNIVAC." Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin {seismo!ut-sally | decvax!allegra | tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Apr 85 1140-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #130 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 130 Today's Topics: Books - Fuller & Heinlein (4 msgs) & Powers, Films - Ladyhawke (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: fortune!rburns@topaz.arpa (Randyll Burns) Subject: Bucky Fuller's books Date: 19 Apr 85 19:16:29 GMT I've just started rereading some of Bucky Fullers books. ie Critical Path. I would be interested in hearing from others that have read these books. I am very interested especially about the economic implications of some of his theories. ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Number of the Beast Date: 18 Apr 85 19:10:53 GMT > Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB? I hope not. I can > see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should > all remember is that the whole book was deliberitly (sp) done in a > very tounge-i-cheek manner. Anyone who has read alot of > Heinlien's work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the > characters in that zoo of a last chapter. One character there > that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir Issac Newton. > Anybody know where this one came from?? Sir Issac Newton is from the book 'Between Planets'. He is Venusian native who is a member of the venusian equivalent of the royal family. This is one of Heinlien's 'juvenile' novels, but don't let that stop you from reading it. I enjoyed all of these novels, except for 'Rocket Ship Galileo'. One thing I wondered about the Heinlein novel 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' (my favorite RAH novel), is the Hazel Meade Stone in it susposed to be the same one as the Hazel Meade Stone in 'The Rolling Stones'? Actually I didn't think TNOTB was all that bad, though it isn't one of my favorites. If you want to discuss a clinker, how about 'I Will Fear no Evil'. Joel Upchurch ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!plutchak@topaz.arpa (Joel Plutchak) Subject: Re: Sir Issac Newton and TNOTB Date: 19 Apr 85 19:38:15 GMT WEBBER@RUTGERS.ARPA writes: >> Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB? I hope not. > >of course not. however, TNOTB is in essence a large joke. people >who did not get it think it was a major waste of time and flame. >people who did get it realize that you can't explain a joke to >someone who didn't get it; so they have less reason to write. And then there are those of us who read it, "got" it, and *still* didn't like it. The joke was largely on us people who spent time and money to listen in on somebody elses private joke. -joel ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Sat, 20 Apr 85 10:40:29 -0200 Subject: answer to 2 Heinlein questions > One character there that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir > Isaac Newton. Anybody know where this one came from?? Well, I must admit that I never read TNOTB, but Sir Isaac Newton sounds like an obvious reference to a dragon character in one of Heinlein's best juveniles - "Between Planets". > BTW, can anyone tell me the name of the short story that has > Andrew Jackson Libby in it? It tells about his early days in some > space navy. His phenomenal mathematical ability is first noticed. The story is called "Misfit", and it appears in the collection "Revolt in 2100". The story was written much earlier than "Methuselah's Children", and there isn't the slightest hint in it about the existence of the Families or about Libby's being one of them. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ Date: Sat 20 Apr 85 18:06:06-EST From: Janice Subject: Andy Libby Story The short story about Andrew "Slipstick" Libby is called "Misfit." It can probably be most easily found in the Heinlein collection called "The Past Through Tomorrow." The most amusing feature of this story, for me at least, was the scene where two major characters are doing some calculations on a computer, and in order to do so they have to convert all the numbers using log tables. Janice ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 21 Apr 85 12:43:15 PST Subject: Tim Powers' first book ...was "The Skies Discrowned" from Laser Books (number 28 in the series), and was published in May of 1976. Very tough to find nowadays (came across mine purely by accident in a small-town bookstore) but comes recommended as an authors first big break into writing. If I'm not mistaken, Laser was *giving* their books away at SF Conventions... no wonder they're out of business... Jerry Hewett {bang!crash!jerryh@nosc} (btw: I think "Anubis Gates" was one of the best books I've ever read! I keep hoping that Powers will release a book of his poetry one of these days [ his William Ashbless stuff is some of the best I've ever seen ]) ------------------------------ From: kallis@pen.DEC Subject: More On LADYHAWKE Date: 18 Apr 85 21:32:23 GMT > LADYHAWKE > A film review by Mark R. Leeper > > Based on boxoffice results, I may be one of the very few >people in the world who liked DRAGONSLAYER. I very simply thought >that it was the best historical fantasy film that I had ever seen. >Up to that point, I would have judged films like THE SEVENTH VOYAGE >OF SINBAD and JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS as my favorites. But >DRAGONSLAYER for the first time had a plot that would have made a >decent fantasy novel, and that was head and shoulders above >anything similar I'd ever seen on the screen. When I saw the >coming attractions for LADYHAWKE, for the first time I thought a >film was coming out that could be comparable in quality to >DRAGONSLAYER. Well, it didn't replace DRAGONSLAYER as my top >historical fantasy but it easily comes in second. The preview was good, though originally it was >>supposed<< to come out o/a Christmas, so the wait was long. > LADYHAWKE is a beautiful fantasy film set in Medieval France. >It follows the adventures of a likeable young pickpocket played >unexpectedly well by Matthew Broderick. He escapes from the evil >bishop's dungeons and is about to be re-captured when he is saved >by the mysterious stranger Navarre (Rutger Hauer) who travels with >a hawk on his arm. At night man and hawk disappear and are >replaced by a beautiful woman who is often seen in the company of a >large and fierce wolf. The man and woman, it seems, are lovers >forever together but forever apart. A curse by the jealous bishop >turns Navarre into a wolf at night; his lover Isabeau becomes a >hawk by day. The story has a marvelous feel of real legend about >it, and a haunting beauty in the way it has been visualized on the >screen. It >ought< to have a " ... feel of a real legend about it ..."; it was adapted from a 13th Century tale, I understand. The cinematography was very good. But the sets were, too. Next time you see it, look at the detail in the roof shingles, etc. More was put into it than need be. > Matthew Broderick's Phillipe is the main character and at the >same time comic relief. Broderick incessantly talks to God like >Tevya does in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF, but not always so reverently. >He seems much better in the role than I expected. Rutget Hauer is >nearly perfect as the mysterious Navarre. Navarre mysterious? I'd not say that, for more than the first third of the film. Then tragic (complete with flaw). >And lovely Michelle Pfeiffer of SCARFACE and INTO THE NIGHT is >terrible as Navarre's lover. The problem is that she talks like an >American and wears lipstick and eye-liner. She fits into the >Medieval setting only slightly better than Pacman. Can't agree. Not perfect, but then, neither is the always-clean- shaven knight. The effect of better than normal beauty is heightened. And don't forget, she metamorphoses .... > And speaking of things out of place, Andrew Powell's rock >score is totally inappropriate. He takes scenes that otherwise >have a beautiful period and wreaks real havoc with the spirit and >texture of the film. A couple more faults, if you please. The >camera work is usually very good, but the use of color filters, >particularly for the sky, is overdone. And speaking of the sky, if >you watch the moon and know some astronomy, you will see something >happen that is actually an impossibility. The script is generally >good, but too much of the legend we are simply told rather than >shown. Also note the anachronistic use of terrycloth. The rock score >>is<< jarring, but not to the exclusion of the enjoyment of the film. At least, it avoided cliches, like _Take Me Out To The Ball Game_ for every baseball picture. Handel's _Water Music_ at slow tempo might have worked. But note that in _Excalibur_ they used an extremely loud Wagner (from Tristan Und Isult, as I recall) and, of all things, _Carmina Burana_! > Yet with all these faults, and more, this remains one >beautiful and enjoyable fantasy film. The settings, the >photography, Hauer's acting, the idea of the story are all >marvelously realized. If this film dies at the boxoffice the way >DRAGONSLAYER did, perhaps modern audiences don't deserve good >fantasy. The public deserves good fantasy, but it has to be promoted, marketed, and distributed properly. _Ladyhawke_ was short-changed in these Additionally, it's worth pointing out that a bit of the symbolism behind the myth squeezed through -- see any good alchemical text on solar and lunar aspects/influences. Most appropriate for the story. Steve ------------------------------ Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE (!!! SPOILER !!!) Date: 20 Apr 85 01:34:48 PST (Sat) From: Alastair Milne > Based on boxoffice results, I may be one of the very few > people in the world who liked DRAGONSLAYER. I very simply > thought that it was the best historical fantasy film that I had > ever seen. ... DRAGONSLAYER for the first time had a plot that > would have made a decent fantasy novel, and that was head and > shoulders above anything similar I'd ever seen on the screen. Well, count me as at least one other who likes DragonSlayer. Though the plot was not exemplary to my mind, the production certainly was. In particular, whoever produced the dragon deserved an award. Whether flying, landed, near, distant, or close-up, it looked great. The blasts of fire washing over stone and tree (and people) looked marvelous. The landscapes were also magnificent, but then, they were northern Wales and the Isle of Skye, so it's to be expected. > LADYHAWKE is a beautiful fantasy film set in Medieval France. . . May I suggest an alternative classification? I think of LadyHawke as a love story with fantasy elements. > Matthew Broderick's Phillipe is the main character and at > the same time comic relief. . . . Rutget Hauer is nearly > perfect as the mysterious Navarre. And lovely Michelle Pfeiffer > of SCARFACE and INTO THE NIGHT is terrible as Navarre's lover. > The problem is that she talks like an American and wears lipstick > and eye-liner. . . . Now for a balancing opinion: I liked Broderick reasonably well, but he unsettled me several times when he tried several times to sound English, and finally gave up. VERY few Americans succeed in sounding English: Richard Gere in "Beyond the Limit", and William Hurt in "Gorky Park", come as close as I've ever heard. EVERYBODY in this film (except for the bishop) sounds American. I expected a slight German colour to Hauer's voice, but no: he just sounded American. (Of course, since I'm British, it may fall differently on my ear than it does on American ears.) I really liked Michelle Pfeiffer, at least as much as Hauer. Her quiet dignity and courage on awakening with a crossbow bolt in her breast, her gentle manner with Phillipe (whom she awed), on the one hand; and her outrage when she saw the furrier with a pelt on his pack horse, her charge into the soaking, black forest to kill him, and the contempt in her face as she threw her jesses at the bishop, on the other, impressed me much more than Navarre's constant bluffness (whether this was the character, or Hauer himself, I can't say). He seemed to delight in throwing away chances and rejecting advice and aid (though I don't deny, if he was suspicious, and not thinking clearly, he certainly had cause). > And speaking of things out of place, Andrew Powell's rock > score is totally inappropriate. He takes scenes that otherwise > have a beautiful period and wreaks real havoc with the spirit and > texture of the film. I agree totally. Fortunately, rock occupies a relatively small part of the score, usually occurring when the bishop's men are searching for Navarre and Philippe. The effect is terrible when it happens, though: a powerful, captivating mode is suddenly broken and rendered trivial when rock breaks in. It is, after all, essentially trivial music. Oh well, it could have been worse: John Williams might have imported more of Star Wars, as he did with Raiders, and E.T., and who knows what else. > . . . And speaking of the sky, if you watch the moon and know > some astronomy, you will see something happen that is actually an > impossibility. As opposed to a man's turning into a wolf, and a woman's becoming a hawk? :-) Seriously, though, I don't really worry about that sort of thing. How about the broad, 20th century roads winding about the hills in the distance behind Imperius' castle? I suspect the relevant Ministry of Transport was unwilling to have its roads muddied and narrowed just for the sake of a film. And as long as shooting takes much longer than the time depicted in the film, the moon will appear out of phase in the film. Or did you have something else in mind? > Yet with all these faults, and more, this remains one > beautiful and enjoyable fantasy film. The settings, the > photography, Hauer's acting, the idea of the story are all > marvelously realized. I can't resist. To my mind, the most beautiful and moving scene of the film: the four of them (Phillipe, Imperius, Isabeau, and Navarre in wolf form) had spent the night in a trench below the snow. Isabeau and Phillipe were awake and out as the sun was coming up. Isabeau was watching Navarre, and Phillipe, from a distance, was watching them both. As the light grew stronger, Navarre transformed. He was lying with his back to Isabeau, unaware that she hadn't transformed, and she was reaching for him, but not close enough to touch. He turned over, and saw her, with the light strong behind her, streaming through her fingers. He was astonished, and you had to wonder: would she be spared the transformation this time? He started to reach for her --- and she transformed. He threw back his head, slammed his fists in the snow, and roared in pain. Unnoticed, Phillipe turned away, his face wet with tears. That scene has stayed with me as nothing else in the film did. > If this film dies at the boxoffice the way DRAGONSLAYER did, > perhaps modern audiences don't deserve good fantasy. Perhaps they don't. Personally, I am waiting for somebody to do a film of Lord of the Rings which really does justice to the book (unlike Bakshi, who virtually threw the book away). I am, of course, prepared to wait a good, long time. But if and when it comes, if it is not acclaimed at the box office, then I will say that modern audiences most definitely do not deserve good fantasy. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 85 0856-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #131 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 131 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Kurtz (2 msgs), Comics - Shatter, Films - Attack of the Killer Tomatoes & Silent Running & Mad Max III (2 msgs) & The Bride Of Frankenstein & Ladyhawke & Showscan & High Crusade & Legend ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stl!dww@topaz.arpa (David Wright) Subject: Re: NofTheBeast Date: 20 Apr 85 11:07:43 GMT Reply-to: dww@stl.UUCP (David Wright) Actually I enjoyed it (except for the ending), once I'd accepted that it was not up to the usual standard - and far too long for it's content. But it's not what one expects of a book of that size - I think it should be a comic book, with a lowish-budget cartoon film to match. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 85 22:32 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Robert A. Heinlein Locus #291 reports that RAH has sold The Cat who walks through Walls: A Comedy of Manners to Berkley and Putnam jointly for over $1M. Total may reach $2m with foreign sales. It should come to 400 pages, and is set on the Luna of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". There are hints about Lazarus Long also. ------------------------------ From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit) Subject: Re: Sir Issac Newton and TNOTB Date: 20 Apr 85 19:09:28 GMT WEBBER@RUTGERS.ARPA writes: >of course not. however, TNOTB is in essence a large joke. people >who did not get it think it was a major waste of time and flame. >people who did get it realize that you can't explain a joke to >someone who didn't get it; so they have less reason to write. Uhm..RAH takes himself too seriously to be able to write a sardonic novel.. It takes somebody like LEM to write the stuff. If we missed something in TNOTB, ah well.. Perhaps somebody will explain what appears to be utter trash.. Than, I will volunteer to explain the literary qualities of "The National Enquirer" :-). Oz (wizard of something or another, no doubt..) Electric: {ihnp4 | allegra | decvax ..}!utzoo!yetti!oz Bitnet: Oz@yuleo ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 1985 16:36 EST (Fri) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: devi%maisha.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gita L. Devi PKO1/D1 223-7046) Subject: Katherine Kurtz Supposedly there will be as many more Deryni stories as there are plot lines to wrap up. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Apr 85 23:15 EST From: sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz > Does anyone know when "Bishop's Heir" will be coming out in a > paperback edition? I don't know the precise date, but since it came out in hardcover last October, and Del Rey tends to release pbs 11-12 months after the hardcover release, a pretty fair guess would be late August or September of this year. > Also - I was a little disappointed when the Camber triology ended > on such an abrupt note. It almost seemed as if the author > suddenly decided that she had written enough and had better end > things quickly. Since I enjoyed the series so much ( and the > subsequent Deryni series), I'm hoping that she will wrap up all of > the loose ends. Does anyone know if there are any more Deryni > books in the works? I can't agree that the Camber trilogy ended abruptly. Practically everyone had died, and the rest were going into hiding. If anything, I can't imagine the trilogy going on further than it did. Bad enough that the appendices had been showing that Evaine would die in the year that the trilogy ended; actually reading her death would have been too much. The political loose ends would also take far too many years (Gwynedd time) to wrap up neatly, and the book was overlong as it was. As for forthcoming books, Katherine has any number in the works; the problem is that she is not a fast writer, and can think up books faster than she can write them. A collection of Deryni short stories will be released this summer. Some of the stories will be reprinted from other sources -- for example, "Swords Against the Marluk" from FLASHING SWORDS #4 and "Bethane" from HECATE'S CAULDRON -- plus enough new stories to fill out the collection page count. As for other Deryni books planned: THE KING'S JUSTICE (late this year early next), and THE QUEST FOR SAINT CAMBER (in progress) will finish out the current trilogy. A trilogy set during the last years of Donal's/first years of Brion's reign, focusing on Morgan and his parents and relatives, legal and otherwise. (The first book ends with Morgan's birth; the third includes the events in "Swords Against the Marluk", when Brion gains the Haldane birthright and slays the Marluk.) Another book (which may grow into more) has a working title of THE YEAR OF KING JAVAN, which would set it 3-4 years after the end of CAMBER THE HERETIC. A possible novel would be set back in Deryni pre-history with Orin, who wrote the Protocols of Orin that were the basis of so much Deryni magic used in the Camber trilogy. I gather that Katherine is also thinking of doing a sequel to her WWII occult novel, LAMMAS NIGHT, set in the present day. Whether her writing picks up or slows down after her move to Ireland I can't guess, nor how her recent marriage will affect matters. In any case, I'm looking forward to the collection and the second book in the trilogy in the months ahead. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Sat 20 Apr 85 13:54:25-PST From: Bruce Subject: Re: Computerized Comic: SHATTER > From: Brenda > Dan didn't mention that the first issue of "Shatter" is as the > back-up story of First Comics' "Jon Sable Freelance" (June issue, > I believe). Actually, /SHATTER/ first appeared in it's own (one-shot) book, with the story then continued in JSF. The black and white art is the same (all done on a Mac) but the coloring is dramatically different than that appearing in JSF. > I was unimpressed with Shatter and think that it must be it could > be done a lot better, both story wise and art wise. I too am not terribly impressed by /SHATTER/. But I am /very/ impressed with the patience the artist must have to have actually drawn all that stuff on a Mac! If you haven't seen it, you should at least try and find a copy and look at it. ------------------------------ From: wudma!ph@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Tomatoes Date: 20 Apr 85 01:09:41 GMT > I can't believe this cropped up on a worst sf movie list again. > It was a JOKE, people -- a hack on the typical monster movie. > Come on, already. It wasn't the funniest movie ever made, but it > did have its moments. As I understand it there are TWO "Attack of the Killer Tomatos" movies; one made in the fifties which was more or less serious (so I hear--I've never seen it), and one made during the seventies which was definitely parody. Probably the one being nominated was the older one. --pH ------------------------------ Date: 20 Apr 85 20:17:06 EST From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: Silent Running again Did you guys actually see this movie? The forests needed to be cared for. Remember how he spent a lot of time teaching the only undamaged 'droid how to care for the forest? Go ahead and talk about how the movie abused my emotions or how bad the acting was or how poor the effects were (well, I guess most people agree that the effects were pretty good, since that's what started this), but I wish you'd stop claiming illogic over points that were fully explained by the film. I don't think there's anything in this film that is just incredible. Maybe the Earth couldn't survive such an ecological change, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. One scenario I can imagine is that buildings are required to have algae ponds built into N% of the external wall space. There's a lot of more ridiculous speculation in most highly acclaimed SF. Why are you guys picking on this poor movie? ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: Mad Max III Date: 18 Apr 85 16:41:13 GMT > From: skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA (D S Kitchen) > Could someone out there give me some help? I enjoyed both "Mad > Max" and "The Road Warrior". Now, there's going to be a third > movie. Would someone please tell me the correct title? I've > heard that it's going to be "Mad Max III" and also "Road Warrior > II". What's the deal? I believe it's going to be called Mad Max III in Australia but the working title is THUNDERDOME. The THUNDERDOME is a place that is key to the story - something like "Two will enter and one will leave". Tina Turner is also in it. Should be interesting. Gary ------------------------------ From: watarts!mupmalis@topaz.arpa (mike upmalis) Subject: Re: Mad Max III Date: 18 Apr 85 08:41:07 GMT skitchen%mit-prill@mit-athena.ARPA writes: >Could someone out there give me some help? I enjoyed both "Mad >Max" and "The Road Warrior". Now, there's going to be a third >movie. Would someone please tell me the correct title? I've heard >that it's going to be "Mad Max III" and also "Road Warrior II". >What's the deal? Both. In the states, it will be Road Warrior II, under the Thunderdome (replace under at will.) It stems from the fact that to most of the world this is the third movie, to most of the United States who didn't get to see Mad Max, they tie the movie to the second one... Mike Upmalis (mupmalis@watarts) ------------------------------ From: tymix!figmo@topaz.arpa (Lynn Gold) Subject: Re: Movies coming out Date: 16 Apr 85 02:37:46 GMT > Sci fi films to be released this summer; The Bride of Frankenstein > (Sting? as the mad young doctor?) I'm not sure whether Sting is playing the Doctor or the monster himself, but he's in the movie. Jennifer Beals (yes, the same one who didn't do her own dancing in "Flashdance") plays the bride. REALLY. --Lynn Gold ...tymix!figmo ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE Date: 20 Apr 85 01:30:42 GMT dwight@timeinc.UUCP (Dwight Ernest) writes: >And you didn't mention the horse--Goodness, that horse--the black >stallion--was just incredible. Perhaps, given your other >cast-related comments, you could at least have given credit to >someone, somewhere, for having made a most extraordinary casting >decision when they found that horse. The horse apparently caused an incredible amount of trouble. It was one of those animals that likes its trainer but hates everyone else. Rutger Hauer and Matthew Broderick could count on it trying to bite them whenever they were mounted on it. It did look good, though. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!acsgjjp@topaz.arpa (Jim Poltrone) Subject: Re: Trumbull (Specifically: What IS Showscan?) Date: 20 Apr 85 19:55:51 GMT > The Showscan movie in question IS being shown at Tsukuba Expo '85, > in the Toshiba corporate pavillion. I got a chance to see it > while we were setting up our exhibit in the US pavillion. The > Showscan process is as impressive as ever. Does anyone know the exact specification of Showscan? I heard that it involves filming and projecting the film at twice the normal speed, for a greater impact on the audience, but I'm not absolutely sure. Please mail me any more info you might have; if there is a demand I will summarize and post at a later date. (BTW, if anyone does happen to go to Tsukuba, check out the Computer Music booth, set up by Lejaren Hiller, Charles Ames, Robert Franki, and Robert Coggeshall (all from SUNY/Buffalo). More on this later in net.music.synth.) - Jim Poltrone (a/k/a Poltr1, the Last of the Raster Blasters) uucp: [decvax,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!acsgjjp ARPAnet, CSnet: acsgjjp%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY BITNET: ACSGJJP@SUNYABVA ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: High Crusade Date: 18 Apr 85 16:32:04 GMT Rumor has it that a movie is in the works. It's called High Crusade (based on the book?) and will star (get this) Peter O'toole! A friend of mine is negotiating for some SFX work on it. - Just a rumor. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 1985 00:32-PST Subject: LEGEND, a film review From: FEBER@USC-ISIB.ARPA LEGEND - a film by Ridley Scott *** Probably a Spoiler, but can you Spoil the Spoiled? *** I had high hopes when I heard this was a film by Ridley Scott. In his previous work, notably Alien and Blade Runner he has performed wonders in realizing milieu, while the Duelist is the best film on obsession I have ever seen. LEGEND performs well on the first count, but is lamentable for its weakness in plot and character. LEGEND is a FANTASY/adventure film with the fantasy written large. I saw it at the Director's Guild Theater in Hollywood at one of those advance screenings where they ask you to fill out questionnaires before and after the film (presumably, so they can patch and polish for the final release - it may even be released under another name). I'm afraid it won't help, though, because it is severely flawed in plot and casting. It's really a shame, too, because parts of it are visually stunning, some of it reminding me of the niftier moments in Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast. Unlike the latter, Legend never escapes the sappy adolescent backwash of its basic sentiments (which appear to be directed towards the overly romantic) to become truly magical. The plot, if you can call it that, follows around assorted goblins, who at the devil's bidding are out to kill the last two unicorns in the forest. The good guys, consisting of a forest sprite, a couple of bumbling leprechauns, a sexually frustrated tinkerbell, and Jack (Tim (tom?) Cruise - who is really awful) are out to stop them, as well as to try to save a kidnapped princess. By the end of the film much of the audience was chuckling at the films extreme sentimentality. Enough said. But, to concentrate on its good points: The realization of the various demons and goblins was very impressive, as was the big D himself. Tim Curry plays the devil, although it's hard to recoginze him under what must be at least 10 pounds of facial makeup. He is the classic red-skinned hooved monster with horns. He does a lot of sneering and leering, he is the devil after all, and manages the best bit of acting in the film. The minor goblins all look like they just walked out of a Durer print. The good guys are less impressive, although the leprechauns are faithful copies of the classic depiction. I was also very impressed by much of the camera work. Some of the scenes in the forest have an otherworldly quality that I've never seen in any other film. It's really too bad the story and much of the acting isn't up to the technical effects of the film. (There were, admittedly, some howlers; a horse trainer was visible in several scenes, and a ring, which figures prominently in the story betrays its contemporary origins.) The film could also be paced better, but it's hard to see how a better cut could improve the story line. Still, if you can tolerate the sophomoric plot, you might want to see this film for the bad guys and some of the forest scenes. mark ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Apr 85 0926-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #132 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 23 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 132 Today's Topics: Books - Blish & Kurtz & L. Neil Smith (2 msgs) & A Request Answered & Unknown Worlds (2 msgs) & Title Request & Tile Request Answered, Films - Cat's Eye & Attack of the Killer Tomatoes & Wizards & Ladyhawke, Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell (Stephen Brust) Date: 15 Apr 85 17:43:30 GMT > Suppose you had a world full of creatures who had no morality at > all. What would they (and their society) be like? I recommend James Blish's A CASE OF CONCIENCE, if you haven't read it. An excellent treatment of (among other things) exactly this point. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 15:54 EST From: " Roz " Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #125 Don't know about the paper back edition but recently read the SF Book club version and it says it is the beginning of the story of King Kelson's problems.... I think Bishop's Heir is the beginning of a new trilogy. Sorry if this is a repeat. I've been traveling again and am behind in my mail! --Roz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 13:23:26 pst From: malloy@nprdc (Sean Malloy) Subject: Re: Book Request The novel 'Their Majesty's Bucketeers' by L. Neil Smith is a book essentially completely about an alien species (there is a short narrative preface tying it into his North American Confederacy novels that can easily be ignored, which bears no connection to the events in the book) that I recommend highly. The lamviin of Sodde Lydfe are an interestingly alien race. Sean Malloy ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 22 Apr 1985 08:38:33-PST From: lionel%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: Totally alien stories > From: Catherine Cunningham > I just finished Brunner's "The Crucible of Time" and really > enjoyed the idea of a book totally about an "alien" society. Can > anyone give me pointers to any other novels/short stories in which > there is no human presence? A few years ago, someone in this very digest recommended L. Neil Smith's "Their Majesties' Bucketeers", and I am more than happy to repeat the favor. It may be that this doesn't totally satisfy your requirements, as the prologue is an observation by a human, but the rest of the book is devoid of humans. It is essentially a Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson story with Holmes and Watson as aliens, and the culture is not all that much different from ours, but what the heck - it's fun. Smith is a well-known Libertarian, and his writings reflect this bent. TMB is, in some aspects, a light satire of our society, but this doesn't get in the way. The paperback is published by Ballantine/Del Rey. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 14:14 EST From: Barry Margolin Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you recall this book..." To: pegasus!naiman@TOPAZ.ARPA (Ephrayim J. Naiman) Ephrayim asked about a book in which the character keep reliving the same day over. I recall reading this book a few years ago, and I think it is James P. Hogan's "Twice Upon a Time". I thought it was great; I've liked everything of Hogan's (even Code of the Lifemaker) so far (he's the only author of whom I've read all published novels). Does anyone know if he has any short works? barmar ------------------------------ From: kallis@pen.DEC Subject: Answering questions on UNKNON WORLDS Date: 18 Apr 85 14:28:56 GMT I have received inquiries concerning my last net message, saying ap- proximately, "I'm new at this: what's _Unknown Worlds_?" _Unknown Words_ was one of the two finest fantasy magazines published (_Weird Tales_ being the other). It was developed by John W. Campbell, Jr., as a companion magazine to Astounding/Analog. It had superb stories in it, including _Darker Than You Think_, "A Gnome There Was," "Trouble With Water," and "The Compleat Werewolf." The paper sortage in World War II caused it to cease publication. The current Analog editor would like to bring it back; the fantasies it would attract would be superior, but the publisher needs convincing. If you need convincing, go to a used magazine shop and look at an issue (it was originally _Unknown_, then _Unknown Worlds_). If you're interested in having it back, wrote Stanley Svhmidt and ask your non-net friends to do so too. Steve Kallis, Jr. ------------------------------ From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Answering questions on UNKNON WORLDS Date: 21 Apr 85 22:00:59 GMT > If you need convincing, go to a used magazine shop and look at an > issue (it was originally _Unknown_, then _Unknown Worlds_). If > you're interested in having it back, wrote Stanley Svhmidt and ask > your non-net friends to do so too. Good luck finding a copy of it, and if you do, be prepared to pay $10-25 dollars for it, depending on condition and gouge-factor. They're quite rare. If anyone has issues for less than $10, get in touch with me! I collect 'em. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@topaz.arpa (Rick Heli) Subject: Book Title Please? Date: 19 Apr 85 03:30:43 GMT Does anyone remember a book about a world's fair on a space station in the 1990's? I read it about 10 years ago & have never been able to find it again. I want to say it was by Silverberg, but I can't say for sure. ------------------------------ From: panda!jpo@topaz.arpa (Joseph O'Connor) Subject: Re: Book Title Please? Date: 22 Apr 85 13:44:56 GMT > Does anyone remember a book about a world's fair on a space > station in the 1990's? I read it about 10 years ago & have never > been able to find it again. I want to say it was by Silverberg, > but I can't say for sure. If you're talking about a world's fair with a trip to Pluto under near constant acceleration. Then it is a book by Robert Silverberg called "World's Fair 1985". I might have the year wrong. This is one of the first Sci-Fi books I got out of the large Sci-Fi section at the Cambridge public library and it still is one of my favorites. jpo@GENRAD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 85 11:36 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: _Cat's_Eye_ I just saw Stephan King's new movie, _Cat's_Eye_ and loved it. I just have to rave a bit about it. It's not horror, though it does have the sense of the macabre that we have come to know and love. Needless to say, there is a cat in it, and that is what ties the 3 stories together. The first story I seem to remember from reading somewhere, perhaps in _Night_Shift_ but my copy seems to have gone for a walk. It's about a smoking clinic that works. The second story is about a mafioso trying to get revenge on his wife and her boyfriend. It's an entertaining affair about gambling. The last story is by far the best, since it is the battle between that critter in the ad and our hero the cat. It also has the most of Drew Dennismore, although she appears in all the stories. I think the critter's jester hat was a nice touch. I loved the bells. The only thing missing was a cameo from Steve himself. It had a car with an "I am Christine" bumper sticker, a man watching _The_Dead_Zone_ on TV, and his wife reading _Pet_Semetary_. There were probably some I missed too. Steve, if you're out there, start a new cameo tradition, please. You're too corny not to. All in all, the movie took my breath away. I recommend it highly. Jon Pugh PUGH%E@LLL-MFE.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 16:15 EST From: " Roz " Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #125 Yup! I saw both AotKT and 'High Anxiety' in the same year on Showtime. Prior to seeing those movies, I had never enjoyed "slap stick comedy"....But AotKT was to BEM-SF movies as HA was to Hitchcock mysteries/thrillers! From that point of view I loved them both! In fact, I watched both as often and as much as my schedule would allow--even if only for 15-20 minutes (when it was on Showtime). I don't think I would run out and BUY the video tapes (even if they were avail!), but I still laugh (NOT chuckle!) when I think of the theme song from AotKT! --Roz ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1985 17:35 PST From: Greg Goodknight Subject: WIZARDS I enjoyed WIZARDS. Bakshi is a good storyteller, and I remember being thoroughly entertained. The animation was, of course, not up to what Disney or even Warner Bros. used to crank out, but at the time of release Bakshi was probably doing the best animation (measured in quality/kilobucks/minute) of anyone in the business. HOWEVER, NECRON-90 (PEACE) was a fairly blatant ripoff of a character created by the late Vaughn Bode. Bode was probably best known for a delightfully disgusting creature named "Cheech Wizard" that was published regularly in the early '70s in the National Lampoon, until Bode's unfortunate demise. Bode's best work was being published in the underground comix of that time. His most haunting character, Cobalt-60 (sound familiar already ?), was a mutant humanoid who spent most of his time hunting down and killing non-mutant humanoids, in an attempt to establish his own kind as "normal" and to punish the humans for creating a radioactive wasteland. Bakshi's NECRON-90 was almost identical in form to Cobalt-60, right down to the beast they rode into battle. The only difference to me was that NECRON-90 decided to stop and smell the roses, and Cobalt-60 would have blasted them with never a second thought. It was plagarism all right, but Vaughn Bode was already dead, and I suppose his heirs just didn't want to fight it (I never was aware of any legal action). Stealing ideas from dead artists seems ghoulish to me, and my personal respect for Bakshi dropped quite a bit. (Insert here the usual disclaimer about sketchy memories of things and people in past decades.) Greg Goodknight Hardware Bozo ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 85 12:19:37 EST (Monday) Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE From: Brenda I very heartily second everything in Dwight Ernest's review, plus would like to add a few comments of my own. In regard to Michelle Pfeiffer <> to not thinking she looked the part. Did you happen to notice her hair?? I thought that this was an excellent touch. It bothered me that she had chopped hair, especially for the period, then I realized -- travelling only at night, never knowing where she was going to wake up, but mostly away from civilisation, she would soon chop off her hair, by herself - with her dagger, to make it easier to take care of. I thought this was an excellent touch, and nicely understated. >>Your review was more than just a mild spoiler, incidentally-- >>perhaps I'm slow, but one of the most marvelous parts of the film >>was in slowly making the connection between the hawk and Isabeau, >>and between the man and the wolf. I'm glad I didn't know about >>that before I saw it. >By the time I saw the film I had heard the premise in presentations >at science fiction conventions, in ads, on TV's At The Movies, in a >presentation at a science fiction society by Joan Vinge who is >writing the novel, etc. Also I contend it is almost impossible to >review the film without giving that much away. I'm very sorry you had already heard, and I noticed that every review I saw (luckily after I saw the film) gave away the secret. Its too bad -- a lot of enjoyment of the film from figuring this out. I totally disagree that you can't review this film without giving it away. Do people always give away the main plot device when reviewing mysteries?? Don't they find ways around it? >>the scene at the end is perhaps one of the most romantic and >>delightful scenes ever filmed, although it's simple. >I actually thought this scene was a bit drawn out and for reasons I >won't mention here, unrealistic. I think that this scene (well, admittedly only the two main people, but the rest were in a bit of a shock, and may have known the full story....) was very realistic. Think about the times invoved here. I'm trying not to make this a spoiler, but my G'd, if I had been through what they had,I would have done exactly that and there. I would not just calmly walk away to a nice private, more appropriate place like some movies have them do. Admittedly, this is not a perfect movie -- there are stereotypical characters, Mathew Broderick's on-again-off-again accent bothered me the first time I saw it. But I just went to see it again (after reading your review and three bad reviews in papers and magazines) and I still think that this is one of the best fantasy/love stories (my favorite genre) I've seen in awhile. I hope people go themselves to make up your mind -- I don't think yuo'll be disappointed. ~Brenda PS I took my boyfriend this time -- He introduced me to SF (has been reading it all his life), who likes to play D&D and read some fantasy (Zelazny's Dilvish, Niven's warlock, etc) but is not into love stories or all the fantasy I am into and he liked it. Also, for a very realistic, scientific, strong control over his emotions kind of guy, there were tears in his eyes at a certain sunrise scene. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 20 Apr 85 18:08:11-EST From: Janice Subject: Multivac According to Asimov, he named his computer Multivac because he misunderstood "Univac" to mean "one vacuum tube" or something like that. So multiply it to get Multivac. Later on, when he realized his mistake, he decided the "ac" ending meant "analog computer," whence "Cosmic AC." Janice ------------------------------ From: utflis!lgondor@topaz.arpa (Les Gondor) Subject: Re: Computers in SF Date: 19 Apr 85 13:35:14 GMT How about the computers in Alexis Gilliland's Rosinante novels? It's interesting that these machines became 'persons' through legally incorporating themselves. As for their names, Corporate Skaskash ranks among the more unusual names given to machines. The other computers mentioned modeled their behaviour and appearance on communications screens on humans: Coroporates Susan Brown, William Hulvey and Forziati. Les Gondor, U of Toronto {cornell,ihnp4,allegra,uw-beaver,decvax!utzoo} !utcsri![utflis!]lgondor CSNET: lgondor@toronto ARPA: lgondor%Toronto@CSNet-Relay ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 1985 15:11 EST (Mon) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E., To: Boelke) Subject: More trivia (Multivac) > From: brendan%gigi.DEC at decwrl.ARPA >A little bit more trivia - Why did Asimov name his computer >Multivac? Because it had so many vacuum tubes of course. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Apr 85 1046-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #133 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 133 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (3 msgs) & Powers & Saberhagen (2 msgs) & Wilhelm & Juvenile Books (2 msgs), Films - Clan of the Cave Bear & Ladyhawke (2 msgs) & Sting & High Crusade, Miscellaneous - Bookstore Addresses (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, 22 Apr 1985 09:07:18-PST From: a_vesper%advax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andy V) Subject: Sir Isaac Newton, Dragon and Andrew Jackson Libby > From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker) > Am I the only one who enjoyed TNOTB? I hope not. I can > see what a lot of folks are saying, but one thing that we should > all remember is that the whole book was deliberately done in a > very tongue-in-cheek manner. Anyone who has read a lot of > Heinlein's work should have recognized 75 or 80 percent of the > characters in that zoo of a last chapter. One character there > that I couldn't recognize was the dragon, Sir Isaac Newton. > Anybody know where this one came from?? I also enjoyed @i(The Number of the Beast), but the ending did not match the beginning. Whatever happened to all those "black hats"? Sir Isaac Newton comes from @i(Between Planets), a Heinlein juvenile about revolution on Venus. It is not in my library (sigh), so I can't give you publishing data. > From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA > > BTW, can anyone tell me the name of the short story that has > Andrew Jackson Libby in it? It tells about his early days in some > space navy. His phenomenal mathematical ability is first noticed. This story is "Misfit" and is only 17 pages long. Quite enjoyable, but really only a tease. (Give me more!) It is in @i(Revolt in 2100) (Signet, 1954) which includes "If this goes on--" and "Coventry" also. The copyright page lists '54 -- R.A.H. and '39,'40 -- Street & Smith Publications, from which I guess it appeared in @i(Astounding) It is also likely to be in the large @i(Future History) book, as R.A.H. describes @i(Revolt in 2100) as "volume 3" of a future history series (Vol 1: The Man Who Sold the Moon; Vol 2: The Green Hills of Earth). Andy V ------------------------------ Date: 21 Apr 85 19:26 PST From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: RAH : FRIDAY The thing that I found most annoying about FRIDAY was that it seemed as thought Heinlein had an idea for a novel, and wrote it, but he couldn't end the story well. Then he remembered this little short story idea that he couldn't sell (for good reason) so he changed the short story around a bit and made it into the ending for the novel. I am not saying that this was how it really happened, just that this is how I imagined it happening after reading the book! Did anyone else notice the huge discontinuity? >>Dave PS I thought TNotB was an interesting change of pace and a fun read, though hardly worth the attention it has been getting lately. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 21:53:17 pst From: ewok%ucbingres@Berkeley (Lisa Rodgin) Subject: even more NotB ok for the few of us who will admit to liking this book (my personal opinion is that it was a terrible book but i loved it anyway) how about compiling a list of of all literary? characters who appeared in the book, and where they originally appeared. i know i have caught most of them, but not all....mail to me and i will post in a while.... cheers! -ewok ------------------------------ Date: Sun 21 Apr 85 22:14:14-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Tim Powers [I wish people would read all of the SF-Lovers.....] As I've mentioned before, Powers wrote two (or three, if you count Drawing of the Dark) "lost" books. "Epitaph in Rust" is set in a similar universe to "Dinner...," but not identical: it has a strong Church, android breweries, etc. "The Skys Discrowned" is about a young man missing an ear who saves a planet. The first FKFreas art book has its cover work. Both are "Laser Books," Roger Elwood's attempt at turning SF into a packaged series like the Harlequin romances (Laser was financed by H.). This may account for their scarcity -- the Lasers were heavily returned, and many used bookstores won't carry anything from Elwood. Reissues of these would not be too embarrassing to Powers, but they really aren't that good. Pretty fluffy. MITSFS has them in Special Reserve (Paperback), so they must be rare. wz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Apr 85 20:34:45 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Saberhagen I was able to finish Empire of the East, but just barely. I found the plot boring and the language unimaginative and plodding. In contrast, I like his vampire stories a lot. His Berserker stories are quite good too. -s ------------------------------ Date: Mon 22 Apr 85 23:19:47-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: saberhagen's Empire and Swords I thought Empire of the East, was pretty good, but just that. The Swords series was really pretty bad. It seemed to drag on forever. I didn't like Saberhagen's gods or his humans very much, but I did rather like the transmogrified dog (what was his name, Draffut?) -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 85 02:50:23 MST From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Kate Wilhelm's WELCOME, CHAOS WELCOME, CHAOS (Berkley, 1985, 297pp.) is the most fun novel I've read by Kate Wilhelm since the excellent WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG, which won the Hugo award for 1976. I won't flatly say 'the best', because Wilhelm has written so many different kinds of books that I don't want to make that kind of a judgment. But this is one of those stories I just love to come across -- a novel that works on many levels, that grabs you with page-turning suspense at the same time that it tickles you with interesting ideas. Since WELCOME, CHAOS is (at one level) a suspense novel, I don't want to spoil it by explaining too much of the story; but I will say that the two main characters are a woman named Lyle Taney, an associate professor of history who has published a popular book on hawks (of all things), and a mysterious man named Hugh Lasater who arrives unexpectedly in Lyle's life with a curious assignment: when she goes to Oregon to research her next book, on eagles, he wants her to spy on someone... Who does Lasater work for? What does he want? That would be telling, but I am willing to say that the novel works its way up from suspense at the detective-novel level to an amazing climax where literally billions of lives are at stake. The characters are mostly well-drawn and memorable; I have my usual complaint that the good guys seem unbelievably calm, rational and nice, but Wilhelm makes up for it with a solid, credible portrayal of the ambiguous enemies. The last hundred pages left me sweaty-palmed, and my only disappointment was that the book had to end at all. A few warnings: one element among the bad guys in the novel is an American administration which looks suspiciously like the current one, and you may find your politics clashing with Wilhelm's (mine didn't -- I find her description of world tensions at the breaking point all too plausible). Also, the blurbs and quotes from reviews on the cover of this edition give part of the game away; if you dislike spoilers you should at all costs avoid reading the cover material. Fortunately I had read Wilhelm's story 'The Winter Beach' in her collection LISTEN, LISTEN and thus the cover didn't reveal anything. This book is so well plotted that I'd almost suspect that Damon Knight, an advocate of the tight plot, had an influence on it... It's sort of a pity that Knight's latest novel, CV, doesn't have more of a Wilhelm influence in it, or so it seems to me. Maybe they should collaborate? :-) Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: hpfclp!fritz@topaz.arpa (fritz) Subject: Looking for obscure juveniles Date: 16 Apr 85 02:52:00 GMT It's worked for other people, so what the heck... Out of perverse curiosity, I'd like to find the names & authors of the first two science-fiction ("juvenile sci-fi" is probably closer) books I ever read, in 3rd and 4th grade. The first was a rather slim tome. I only remember two things about it: 1) the cover was hot pink, and 2) one scene in the story: the hero[ine?] is, I believe, on some foreign planet, talking to the [military?] leader of the natives. They are in a tizzy because of something they call "The Seed". "The Seed?" asks our hero/ine, "What can be so dangerous about a seed?" ...and you turn the page, which shows a 2-page illustration of The Seed -- which makes the local mountain range look like pebbles. It's got some kind of tendrils latched into the mountains, and I forget what happens from there. The second one might have been called "Rusty's Spaceship". It's a thoroughly silly story about some boys who build a play spaceship out of wood, and a very silly alien who needs a spaceship to get back to his home. Only he can't remember where it is. So he tacks this magical aluminum foil (one half of his Emperor's spaceship, which he had been sent to find?) onto the front of the ship, and they go cruising around the solar system trying to figure out where our friendly ET came from. Magic pills take care of little problems like vacuum decompression, oxygen & food starvation, etc. Anybody recognize these gems? Please MAIL any responses (we don't need a repeat of the "Mindkiller" avalanche, although I doubt as many people will recognize these books!). Thanks, Gary Fritz Hewlett Packard Ft Collins, CO {ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!fritz ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: Looking for obscure juveniles Date: 19 Apr 85 21:53:37 GMT > Out of perverse curiosity, I'd like to find the names & authors of > the first two science-fiction ("juvenile sci-fi" is probably > closer) books I ever read, in 3rd and 4th grade. > > Gary Fritz {ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!fritz How about a short story called The House. It is about a futuristic house on the outskirts of a city that has been recently nuked. One of the things I remember was the little robotic mice that tried to keep the inside of the house clean as it started to fall apart. (no mention of where it got it's power from...) If you have ever read it - I'd love to find it again. Gary ------------------------------ Date: 22 Apr 85 9:31:14-EST (Mon) From: Susan Tabron Subject: Jean Auel Does anyone know when the movie _Clan_of_the_Cave_Bear is coming out? I saw mention of it earlier in the year in this list and have been looking forward to it. Second, how about the 3rd book in the series? Isn't it due pretty soon, too? :Sue: ------------------------------ From: trwatf!root@topaz.arpa (Lord Frith) Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE Date: 22 Apr 85 16:23:36 GMT > And you didn't mention the horse--Goodness, that horse--the black > stallion--was just incredible. Perhaps, given your other > cast-related comments, you could at least have given credit to > someone, somewhere, for having made a most extraordinary casting > decision when they found that horse. Yes, the stallion in LadyHawke IS amazing. He cantors... he gallops.... he does EVERYTHING right and with complete precision. And he doesn't do anything when he isn't supposed to. I'm still trying to figure out what breed of horse he is! Any clues here? He's far too large and muscular for an arabian. UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root - Lord Frith ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO ------------------------------ From: watarts!mupmalis@topaz.arpa (mike upmalis) Subject: Re: LADYHAWKE Date: 23 Apr 85 03:18:15 GMT Ladyhawke! Did you see it? I'm still in shock over the fact that people actually applauded at the conclusion of the film. Ladyhawke is definitely a "B" grade movie. Isabeau and the Mouse are both too bloody american to be fantasy characters. There was no depth to the film. It is a film meant to satisfy the lowest common denominators in the viewing audience, which it does, but it left me high and dry. I like to be entranced when I watch a movie, but Ladyhawke just didn't have the enchantment necessary. Oh by the way, the bad guy gets skewered in the end. Big Surprise! Mark Taylor broadcasting from Elba..... Mike Upmalis (mupmalis@watarts) ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Movies coming out Date: 20 Apr 85 22:34:35 GMT figmo@tymix.UUCP (Lynn Gold) writes: >I'm not sure whether Sting is playing the Doctor or the monster >himself, but he's in the movie. Sting plays the doctor, not the monster. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!gvg@topaz.arpa (gvg) Subject: Re: High Crusade Date: 13 Apr 85 21:34:00 GMT > Rumor has it that a movie is in the works. It's called High > Crusade (based on the book?) and will star (get this) Peter > O'toole! > A friend of mine is negotiating for some SFX work on it. My God, I hope so - I must've read that book three or four times when I was in high school. It would make a great STAR WARS-type space opera. Regards - GVG hplabs!hp-pcd!gvg ------------------------------ Date: Fri 19 Apr 85 16:35:47-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: Followup to SF/Fantasy bookstore-address requests I have received many replies to my bookstore-address queries (a thank-you message will go out to individuals when the dust clears). Addresses are still coming in, mostly duplicates, so to reduce the mail volume here's the list of those for which I still need addresses: Book Nook, Atlanta, GA Odyssey Bookshop, KY Mile-Hi Comics, Boulder, CO Mile-Hi Comics, Denver, CO Science Fiction & Mystery Bookshop, Powell's Books, Portland, OR Atlanta, GA Books of Wonder The Foundation Bookstore 464 Hudson St Rosemary St New York, NY Chapel Hill, NC [all I need is the zip code] [I need street # and zip code] Those who request(ed) a copy of the list will receive addresses for 40 bookstores (including those listed above, hopefully) in the US, Canada, and England specializing in (or at least strongly into) SF & fantasy. Thanks, Rich ------------------------------ From: unc!cm@topaz.arpa (Chuck Mosher) Subject: Re: SF Bookstore address request Date: 21 Apr 85 23:27:27 GMT Rich - I tried to send this through the mail but the address failed. I hope the net will excuse the posting. If you are ever in Chapel Hill, definitely check out this bookstore. They have a HUGE selection, including old (out-of-print) and used books. > The Foundation Bookstore > Rosemary St > Chapel Hill, NC > [I need street # and zip code] It has changed its name and owner. New address is: The Second Foundation Bookstore 136 E Rosemary St. Chapel Hill, NC 27514 919-967-4439 I would also like a copy of the list. Thanks for doing this! Chuck Mosher Dept of Computer Science UNC Chapel Hill !{decvax!philabs}!mcnc!unc!cm ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Apr 85 1117-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #134 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 134 Today's Topics: Art - Bob Walters, Books - Anthony & Heinlein & McCaffrey (3 msgs) & A Request, Films - Star Trek IV & Dragonslayer & Showscan & Wizards (2 msgs), Television - Dr. Who & Outer Limits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1985 10:31:55 EST From: Subject: Art in True Names I think that a few of Mark Leeper's comments re Bob Walters' artwork for True Names are in need of comment. Having been involved with that project rather intimately -- both I and a housemate posed for some of the setup photos for this book, though the faces were changed to protect the guilty -- I think I'm in a position to do so. First of all, you must recognize that very few sf artists have as much control over their work as you seem to think, Mark. Art directors often tell artists precisely which scenes they want illustrated, from what perspective, and so on. When such limits are placed on an artist, they can prevent some of his or her talent from showing through. To my mind, despite the numerous constraints placed on him by Bluejay's staff, Bob managed to produce a fine set of illustrations. Secondly, your comment on the sloppy placement of the illustrations, while true, is placed in the same paragraph as your comments on the artist's talents. Unfortunately, this implies that the two are related, which they aren't. Once again, this type of thing is under the control of the publisher, not the artist. If you're unhappy with the placement of the pictures (and you're quite right about it being sloppy), please bitch directly to Bluejay -- this isn't something that the artist has any control over. Unfortunately, Bluejay in general does sloppy work. Their trade paperback line has, all too often, consisted of reprints whose length, even when one counts the "padding" like Minsky's comments on True Names, doesn't justify their price. Their release dates are continually slipping, causing losses of royalties to both authors and artists. [True Names has an '84 copyright date, but wasn't shipped till mid-January of '85; as a result, many of the big bookstores {Daltons/Walden/etc} refused to stock it, as it was an "out-of-date" edition.] I know, from talking to Bob, that he intends not to work for them again unless it's absolutely necessary -- apparently they didn't even have the courtesy to return the originals in decent shape! By the way, if you really want to judge the quality of his work, you might consider attending this year's Disclave (in DC over Memorial Day Weekend), where he will be the Artist Guest of Honor. --Dave Axler ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Piers Anthony Isn't Real? Date: 23 Apr 85 19:37:42 GMT I just woke up to the fact, probably well known to the rest of the world, that Piers Anthony is a pseudonym. Ok, so what's his (her?) real name????? "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ To: Janice Subject: Re: Andy Libby Story (Misfit) - Correction Date: 23 Apr 85 09:26:47 PST (Tue) From: Jim Hester > ... The most amusing feature of this story, for me at least, was > the scene where two major characters are doing some calculations > on a computer, and in order to do so they have to convert all the > numbers using log tables. At the end of the story Libby was assigned to a computer, which broke down and he had to mentally calculate the answers. But the story gave no indication of what form the computer output was, so we must assume from the firing data mentioned ("tube thirteen, seven point six ...") that this was the form of the output. The only mention on logs in the story was when they first discovered his ability and were testing it: he didn't know what a log was until they explained it to him, at which time he calculated some for them. You have confused this with another Heinlein story, a novel: "Starman Jones". This involved the scene you described, where people stood by with books of tables translating computer input and output. I only recall binary-decimal conversions, since that was the mode of input/output the computer used, but wouldn't be suprised if logs were looked up too. My favorite story of this type was "Superiority" (Arthur C. Clarke), where a warship housing a 'Battle Analyzer' computer had to be accompanied by a (vulnerable) passenger liner containing a "team of five hundred technicians to maintain and operate it". You see, the Analyzer had "just short of a million vacuum tubes". Jim ------------------------------ Date: 23 Apr 85 09:50:58 PST (Tuesday) From: Susser.PASA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Pern Question I always guessed that Pern was small and had a low surface gravity, but I think your calculation may be based on a false assumption. I do not think that the length of a Pernese day was ever given in anything corresponding to Earth time. I don't have my Pern books handy, but I remember the scene when F'lar was computing the times of threadfall, and how I thought that there didn't seem to be twenty-four hours in a day. Even then, a Pernese hour may not be the same as an Terran hour. So, if the day were shorter or longer (either in measured hours or in real time), then Pern could be larger. I always thought of Pern as being about Mars' size and gravity. -- Josh Susser (Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa) ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: Pern Question Date: 23 Apr 85 06:06:59 GMT > I was thumbing through the Atlas of Pern when it dawned upon me to > calculate the size of the planet. Based on the distances between > time zones, I found that Pern was approximately the size of > Saturn's moon Rhea - one _eighth_ the diameter of Earth! (half > that of the moon) > > Pern must be pretty damn dense if it has gravity anywhere near > that on Earth (the densest planet in our solar system). Perhaps > this is why those huge dragons can fly so easily? I am not familiar with the atlas. Does it use the map in the front of the books? That map can't be to scale. In "The White Dragon", they say that the Northern continent could fit in one bay of the Southern continent. That obviously can't be true, if that map were to scale. Benden and Ruatha are half a world away, according to Dragonflight. (Page 63, Del Rey edition) Yet, Benden doesn't appear to be half a world from Ruatha, barely a third in fact. If you read carefully, there are other inconsistencies, like the relationship between High Reaches and Benden, that make me suspect the cartographers are in error. I suspect that that Pern uses a Northern Continent centric projection for maps, like Mercator's projection which makes Greenland look far larger than South America. If you read carefully, there are other inconsistencies, like the relationship between High Reaches and Benden, that make me suspect the cartographers are in error. Pern's gravity isn't that far from Earth's, according to the prologue to Dragonflight. Men can walk confidently. They can't even truly do so on the moon. With 1/36'th of Earth's gravity, which is about what such a planet's gravity would be, you'd take off every time you ran. Dave van De Kerk Loyal to Benden Hacker Hall, U.C. Davis ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!regard@topaz.arpa (Adrienne Regard) Subject: Pern's map Date: 23 Apr 85 18:40:49 GMT I was interested to discover that the "map" of Pern very closely approximates maps of Venus in the latest Scientific American. Is this news only to me? ------------------------------ Date: Mon 22 Apr 85 15:09:23-CST From: Pete Galvin Subject: The name of the book? Here's another challange for someone with a better memory than mine: The main character of the book (or maybe a short story) is the next step in evolution (from man). He has extra joint in his digits, has a little laboratory in his basement in which he invents nifty things and makes lots of money, etc. There is also a neat ending, but I won't give it away for fear of spoiling the story (that is, if anyone can tell me what the story was!). I could have sworn Ted Sturgeon wrote this, but Sturgeonites just look at me funny when I describe it to them... --Pete ------------------------------ From: decuac!avolio@topaz.arpa (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: Star Trek IV Date: 22 Apr 85 17:45:51 GMT I suspect that we won't really know about ST:IV until it's out. (In the can, as they say...) I mean, we've read about three or four plot lines people "got" from "reliable sources". At one end is this discription... > This appears to be a movie based on war, and as it turns out, Kirk > succeeds, and in the process destroys a good deal of the Klingon > battle group........ > > Also, this is probably going to be the last ST movie with the > original cast, as some characters are supposed to be killed, this > time for good. And then we have Takei's own words (on local radio in Baltimore, for example) saying it was going to be "done for fun... Like The Trouble With Tribbles." Since it is hard to reconcile these two discriptions, I suspect we're shooting in the dark. (Keep those old cliches alive!) Fred Avolio {decvax,seismo}!decuac!avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 ------------------------------ Date: Tue 23 Apr 85 10:27:04-EST From: Gern Subject: DragonSlayer I and several friends of mine enjoyed DragonSlayer a whole lot. We saw it 3 times. It was a joint effort of Parmount and Walt Disney Productions. I have the book, but have never had the chance yet to read it. Of course the effects and Dragon were great - it was done by ILM (Industrial Light and Magic) - (George) Lucas Film's group. Now if only I had a VTR... Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: Tue 23 Apr 85 13:42:18-PST From: R H Davis Subject: Showscan Showscan, a process developed by Trumble at Paramount Pictures, is a high quality version of IMAX/CINEMAX. Images are photographed sideways on the frame(70mm, I believe) at a rate of 65 frames per second. The frame is also projected on it's side at 65fps. This allows for a very clean image that fills the screen (about 3 stories high) and maximizes the audiances nausea factor (!!!haha!!!). Showscan also utilizes an extremely high quality digital playback sound system. The only problem with the process is that the film must be especially made as most film stocks shatter under the pressure of 65 fps (the film is started and stopped in the camera/projector 65 times in a second). It's great....but it's much more expensive than Imax to shoot.....too bad. bd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 85 23:33 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: WIZARDS and Vaughn Bode Cc: Greg Goodknight >HOWEVER, NECRON-90 (PEACE) was a fairly blatant ripoff of a >character created by the late Vaughn Bode[, Cobalt-60.] ... It >was plagarism all right, but Vaughn Bode was already dead, and I >suppose his heirs just didn't want to fight it (I never was aware >of any legal action). Stealing ideas from dead artists seems >ghoulish to me, and my personal respect for Bakshi dropped quite a >bit. Several years ago, I was at either Norwestcon or Baycon (or maybe even Westercon - somewhere on the west coast anyway) and Bode's son, Mark, was there, along with another person whose name I've forgotten and will refer to as *A* (a colaborator of V. Bode). They said that what had happened was something like this: Bakshi saw the character (at that point I think still unpublished) in V. Bode's notebook and got the idea for WIZARDS, but they couldn't come to terms. Some time later, V. Bode died, leaving his estate in a mess that took literally years to clean up. Immediately, Bakshi began Wizards, which in due course came out. At this point, V. Bode's estate had STILL not been settled, and so no legal action was (could be) taken. In fact, by the time V. Bode's estate was settled, it was to late to file a lawsuit for copyright infringement. (There may also have been some problem with the copyright, i.e., whatever Cobalt-60 appeared in had no copyright notice, or was never officially distributed or something. (This WAS a couple of years ago. I only remember as much as I do because M. Bode and I have the same first name.)) Anyway, M. Bode and *A* were to collaborate on a new series of Cobalt-60 strips, which I THINK is/was to be/will be appear in EPIC magazine. (If anyone has seen them, perhaps we could get a review for the net.) *A* said that he hoped Bakshi sued THEM for copyright infringement, because then they could countersue, but that he didn't think Bakshi was that stupid. Other than that hope, apparently they have no legal recourse. Incidentally, "Bode" is pronounce in two sylables, something like "Bo-Day" (like "Vo-Tech", only different). Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is Bits) Subject: WIZARDS Date: 23 Apr 85 16:17:51 GMT I agree with Mark Leeper: I didn't like WIZARDS either. During the film, the corners of my mouth started sinking, as did my stomach; scantily clad females don't do a thing for me; all that footage that I thought was interesting in Lord of the Rings I saw had been used before in WIZARDS; bad guys are Nazis-- I agree, Nazis're bad, but this just felt like a crutch because Bakshi couldn't make up his own bad guys. And then the easy-out, absolutely-wrong ending. The worst part of it was, that so many of my friends thought this was a movie to end all movies, and I thought (and still think) it was male-juvenile humor at its trashiest (come on--what girl wants to see a movie in which there is only one female character (-: okay, and no totally gnarly dudes :-) ). Well, that's just my opinion. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: sdcc7!li63sfh@topaz.arpa (Philip Kao) Subject: Dr. Who (?) Date: 23 Apr 85 04:31:32 GMT so boys and girls, it's trivia time i got this letter from a potential roommate who is in love with Dr. Who...bad sign????...who the ____ is Dr. Who? please reply by email if possible, i may not read all of these news groups often enough. uucp : ...!{ucbvax,ihnp4,noscvax}!sdcsvax!sdcc7!{li63sfh} arpa : sdcsvax!sdcc7!{li63sfh}@{Berkeley,Nosc} CS-Net : (none) Bit-Net: sdcsvax!sdcc7!{li63sfh}%WISCVM Dec-Net: ihnp4!sdcsvax!sdcc7!{li63sfh}%DECWRL ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 24 Apr 85 02:20:49 EST From: boyle (franklin boyle) @ cmu-psy-a Subject: Outer Limits Does anyone know if video tapes of any of the episodes of the Outer Limits are being rented or sold? I know that some Star Trek episodes are -- on separate, 1 hour tapes. I have recently begun to tape the Outer Limits from a local independent TV station, but they are currently pre-empting it with movies even though it is listed in the local TV guide. If they trash it then I'll have to hope that another picks it up. I have 9 episodes, but there are 46 (correct me if I'm wrong), and I would like to get them all. Any replies can be sent directly to me, unless you feel it is of general interest to the net. Thanks in advance, Frank (boyle@cmu-psy-a) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Apr 85 1048-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #135 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 25 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 135 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Heinlein (2 msgs) & King (2 msgs) & Powers & A Request Answered (3 msgs), Films- Attack of the Killer Tomatoes & Ladyhawke ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Apr 85 11:55:48 pst From: richardl%ucbmiro@Berkeley (Richard Levenberg-Villadonga) I have been waiting for this since April of 1984 and I bought it as soon as it came out. I read it this weekend and now am anxiously waiting for the next one. Here is the first review. For those of you who have read the first two you know that Hope Hubris is faced with seemingly unescapable death but he always pulls through due to the professionalism of the people he surrounds himself with. Anthony has done it again and Hope pulls through as expected. One part is particularly interesting with an old earth train robbery and some very good action sequences. But it gets a little tiring to see someone (usually a woman) who is so completely devoted to Hope that she gives up her life to save him and his cause. The symbols were not abstract enough. Saturn and Jupiter, two independent "United States," are obviosly supposed to represent the U.S. and Russia. The symbols are not only there but they are presented blatantly and leave nothing to the readers interpretation. Anthony uses the Korean Airlines incident of last year as a means to get Hope and the leaders of the classless (sic) society of Saturn and the dialogue Hope has with them is extremely funny. In this volume we finally get to meet Hopie Hubris, the daughter of our illustrious hero. Not only do we get to meet her but we get to watch her grow up and save her father once (though probably not the last time). Hopie is the one who writes the short prolog in the back of the previous two novels. Anthony uses a very good technique for telling the story and it is one I have not seen before. I was impressed. I dont even want to hint at it for fear of spoiling it for others but it is unique and worth reading just to see the versatility of Piers Anthony. I highly recommend this book (read the first two first!) but probably do not have to for those of you who have already read the first two. Enjoy! richardl@ucbmiro.berkeley ------------------------------ From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: RAH : FRIDAY Date: 24 Apr 85 19:33:10 GMT >The thing that I found most annoying about FRIDAY was that it >seemed as thought Heinlein had an idea for a novel, and wrote it, >but he couldn't end the story well. Then he remembered this little >short story idea that he couldn't sell (for good reason) so he >changed the short story around a bit and made it into the ending >for the novel. I think you will find this flaw in many of Heinlein's novels. His plots often tend to peter out in midstream, or to be aborted in mid- flight. As examples, consider TIME FOR THE STARS, where the ship's voyages are suddenly ended by the discovery of FTL offstage, or TUNNEL IN THE SKY, where the survival efforts of the protagonists are halted abruptly by the repair of the transmitter back on Earth, or PODKAYNE OF MARS, where Poddy sets out for Earth, but hasn't even gotten there when the novel ends. The most extreme example is probably TNoTB, where the original plot (with the "black hats") is simply denied and cancelled, but the book goes on (and on). Heinlein is my favorite SF writer, but he ain't perfect. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ From: harrow@exodus.DEC (Jeff Harrow NCSE TWO/E92 DTN=247-3134) Subject: Robert Heinlein Date: 24 Apr 85 18:19:17 GMT I'll tell you, I grew up with Heinlein (so to speak). Through his books he taught me a great deal and was a pleasant companion from elementary school onward. Now I'll continue to buy each new book in hardcover the minute it appears (a rare exception for me) because I feel that I owe him a lot, but the two most recent novels have left me somewhat cool. What happened to the TREMENDOUS, almost enveloping structure and content of the Lazurus Long and other, earlier stories? I mourn for this loss, but I WILL keep on hoping and buying... Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 23 Apr 1985 08:06:23-PST From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Review of Bachman/King's 'RAGE' Review of 'RAGE' by Richard Bachman/(Stephen King). The basic story of 'RAGE' is an account of a high-school student who goes a bit insane and shoots a couple of teachers and then takes his whole class as hostages. Some of this book is silly, but, for the most part it is pretty good. The way Stephen presents the story, from the crazy kids point of view is interesting. Also, the way the days events affect other kids in the class and some of the adults who are attempting to deal with the situation gave me some things to think about. While this book is not going to be a classic (if it wasn't for the news about Bachman being King this book would never be back in print), I would recommend this book for light reading. The subject may indicate that the story could be a tense horror story, but, most of the story is people dealing with other people. King takes us back (using flash backs) to the main events that lead to the breaking point for our hero (as it were), also, some of the other kids reflect on things that have happened to them. While 'RAGE' is better than 'The Long Walk' it is not quite as good as 'The Running man'. I give 'RAGE' 6 points out of 10. I did see "CAT'S EYE" about a week ago, I liked it. But, The last story of the three had something I thought was really DUMB (like in STUPID)!! I don't think it's possible to ruin a movie in less than a minute, but, even though I liked the last story up to the 30 seconds of #%$^%#^! I left the theatre with a bad feeling. Reflecting back, the first two stories were pretty good, I liked the 'Ledge' more than 'Quitters Inc.', I think I would have liked the last story at least as much as the 'Ledge' if it wasn't for... arrrgh..!! SORRY ABOUT THE FLAMES. I won't review "CAT'S EYE", might flame it, but, won't review it. I wonder if anyone else feels as strongly about the DUMB part as I do. For those of you who haven't seen it, the DUMB part is very obvious, I don't think I'll have to point it out to anyone who has seen the movie. KEN COBB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 09:46 pst From: "pugh jon%g.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: New Steven King edition I just purchased a copy of Stephen King's book, _Cycle_of_the_ Werewolf_. This is a new edition of a book that appeared only in hardcover and it is beautiful! Berni Wrightson did the illustrations in both color and b&w. Truly one of the best illustrated books I have seen in years. If you read _National_Lampoon_ then you may have seen some of Berni's work. He did a parody of the TV show _Bewitched_ in which Sam and Endora were real witches, complete with human sacrifices and sex magic with demons. My favorite part had to be when they burn Mrs. Cravitts' eyes out though. Silly stuff, I highly recommend it. It was in comic format and funny. Berni has also done a lot of SF artwork, although his leanings are toward the horror realm. I have a portfolio of his interpretation of Edgar Allan Poe's works that is quite stunning, especially _The_Cask_of_Howeveryouspellit_. So, in summary, this book is a must see! -- Jon Pugh -- ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is Bits) Subject: DINNER AT THE DEVIANT'S PALACE; Powers; Blaylock; Ashbless Date: 23 Apr 85 16:14:09 GMT Evelyn C. Leeper > I realize all this sounds very negative. The book is not > that bad, but it's not that good either. Read his first novel > instead, and hope for a better one for his third. Nah. Probably not. The first two *published* were Laser books; I read one of them--it was sort of fun but predictable (and sexist--two women, both stupid and bad: one old icky, crazy one without teeth, and one fair young thing that everyone laughs at when she tries poetry and who abandons anyone for anyone-else who looks to have a bigger purse) in the one-hero-with-good-reflexes-saves- the-planet (but doesn't get the fair young female! who wants her! women! bah!) ...I read a lot of these, and this one is probably excellent by Laser books standards. However. So unless we start in negative numbers (say, -2), we've already seen Tim Powers' 3rd book. For those who enjoyed _The_Anubis_Gates_, I recommend _Digging_Leviathan_ by Blaylock. You will meet your old friend, that inimitable poet, William Ashbless, exploring the ocean deeps off Palos Verdes and the vast underground sea beneath LA. And searching for the marine entrance to the center of the earth, where all those mermen must have come from. In about the 1950s. Blaylock's elf&dwarf books are very gentle, and probably quite suitable to read to any offspring you might have. If they're big enough to not have nightmares full of evil animated skeletons and zombies with murder in their eye-sockets. They're also humorous, but a good deal of the humor is visual rather than verbal, so I had to take pauses sometimes to conjure up a picture of a funny scene. The descriptions of these scenes are why the books are so thick. However, these are more books with invisible women: although one character does occasionally mention his mother, the only females that take part in the action are wicked witches. By the way, every Powers (4 of the 5 I know of) and Blaylock (3 of 3 I know of) book I've read contains at least a mention of William Ashbless. Yes, this includes Blaylock's two gentle fantasies, _The_Elfin_Ship_ and _The_Disappearing_Dwarf_ (Del Rey), which take place in a completely imaginary land populated by dwarfs and elves and wizards and are quite unlike Powers' books or _Digging_Leviathan_. Can anyone out there dig up the Laser book I didn't read, and see if it too mentions Ashbless? L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Apr 85 21:00:01 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: Do you recall... & James P. Hogan Barry Margolin (Margolin@MIT-MULTICS) writes: > Ephrayim asked about a book in which the character[s] keep > reliving the same day over. I recall reading this book a few > years ago, and I think it is James P. Hogan's "Twice Upon a Time". Not as I recall -- Hogan's _Thrice_Upon_a_Time_ was about a computer- -assisted device that could communicate with itself forwards and backwards in time (hence the title), with some characters to make it a story. I actually enjoyed the book, but gave up halfway through two of his other books; his characters generally seem to be cardboard, sturdy enough only to hold up the scientific extrapolation that is the core of his stories. _The_Genesis_Machine_ inspired me to put it down and read some >nonfictional< scientific lecturing. [Flame --I say-- flame now off] Oh yeah, the story -- does anyone else out there know what it is? If it isn't one of the Dick stories that I mentioned previously, I'd like to read it; it's a very interesting idea. --Pete [jpa144@cit-vax] ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 85 09:42:40 PST (Wednesday) From: Ayers.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #132 On the work where people re-live the same day over and over: A short story from the '50s, probably in Galaxy or Astounding, featured a plot where EVERYONE relives the same day over and over. It seems that the hero invents a "ray" that causes cells to perfectly regenerate overnight. He creates a machine to produce the ray, thus giving the world immortality. But since brain cells recreate themselves perfectly overnight, long-term memory vanishes: every morning you have the same memories as when the "ray" was first turned on. People may have a device which records short-term memory in the evening and then replays it into their brains in the morning. Of course its hard to keep updating yourself from day-one-of-the-ray and so you really have your memories from pre-ray days with some fraction of recent days smashed over them. Focus of the story is the hero's efforts to, via older memory-tapes of his, remember enough about the past to be able to reach, and shut off, the "ray" generator. I recall one of the lines from the story: one character to another, clearly the punch-line of a popular joke: "Boy, this has been one HELL of an April 24th!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 06:16 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: A query answered Sorry barmar - you is wrong. The story about the man who lives the same day over and over is definitely by Philip Dick - although I too cannot remember the title. Hogan's "THRICE upon a time" features one of his (typically) smart-arsed geniuses who decides to alter the past (twice - hence the thrice in the title) to save the world once from a new disease and once from miniature black holes gnawing away at the centre of the earth. The Philip Dick novel in which people particpate as Barbie Dolls (Perkie Pat) is "The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch" one of Dick's very finest novels. The people are colonists on Mars and escape into their "layouts" (models of reality) via an hallucinogenic drug called Chew-Z (catchy huh?) The eponymous Mr. Eldritch returns from some alien planet bearing a rival drug - Can-D. Gradually (slight spoiler) it becomes apparanet that once you've taken Can-D you NEVER know whether you're back to reality or still hallucinating. And you keep coming up against Mr. E in various disguises. He has, however, three physically distinguishing features (the stigmata of the title) which always give him away - if you're on the lookout - trouble is - can't remember what they are. This is a GREAT novel - I thoroughly recommend it to all those who haven't read it - nothing to do with reliving the same day tho' (sorry moderator). ------------------------------ From: crash!usiiden!jholt@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 10:16:29 PST Subject: 'attack of the killer tomatoes' [sing along] actually, i think we're talking about the 70's film - strictly tongue- in-cheek. with stars like jack riley of bob newhart fame (mr. carlton, remember?), how could it be otherwise? someone suggested putting the director away... actually, steve peace is now in california politics! ah well, a madhouse is a madhouse... jholt (crash!usiiden!jholt@ucsd) ------------------------------ Subject: the horse in "LadyHawke" Date: 24 Apr 85 20:57:09 PST (Wed) From: Alastair Milne My impression is that Goliath is either a Shire or a Percheron. The only other draft horse I can think of is a Clydesdale, and they have great tufts of hair over the hoofs (I also doubt whether there are any jet-black Clydesdales). However, my brother is a horse trainer and riding instructor. I'll see if I can get his opinion, and pass it on. (I am certain, though, that Goliath is no Arabian. They are light of build, fleet, tremendous runners. They don't have the build of draft horses.) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Apr 85 1125-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #136 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 25 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 136 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony (3 msgs) & Hogan (2 msgs) & King & Simak & Wilhelm, Films - Brazil & Cat's Eye & Wizards, Miscellaneous - Computers in SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: okamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Okamoto) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Isn't Real? Date: 24 Apr 85 16:09:36 GMT > I just woke up to the fact, probably well known to the rest of the > world, that Piers Anthony is a psuedonem. Ok, so what's his > (her?) real name????? His real name is Piers Anthony Tillingham Jacob. On the page just before the end of most of his books, it explains how he got this unusual set of names. Jeff Okamoto ..!ucbvax!okamoto okamoto@Berkely.ARPA ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: RE: Re:Re:re: Is Pierce Anthony Real?-mystery ends Date: 24 Apr 85 17:55:23 GMT Woe is me. I am deluged by answers to my query that Piers Anthony is really Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob. Thank you one and all. I admit, the first one I received I was just about to fire back, "Are you putting me on?" But several thousand similar replies buried me before I could reply. Well, several hundred. Well, several. My clue came from a footnote in a 1963 Ace Special Thanks again! "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ Date: Wed 24 Apr 85 14:30:28-PST From: BBISHOP%ECLD@ECLA Subject: Piers Anthony Does anyone know when "With Hourglass in Hand" by Piers Anthony will be out in paperback? (I believe that's the title, or at least close) It's the second of his current series 'Incarnations of Immortality' and about someone who gets the job of Chronos, keeper of time, etc. etc. The first book was about an average Joe in a future world who gets the job of Death and was not bad. It would have been great if he hadn't preached for so long about euthanasia. This seems to be the only serious SF that Anthony wishes to write (do NOT send replies about "BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT" or the Xanth series - I could flame about those for a month and a half) If you like Anthony's stuff at all, do yourself a favor and read "Macroscope" or the Cluster 'trilogy' (it's at four books now, I believe). These blow those punny fantasy potboilers right out of the water. Brian Bishop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 10:09 pst From: "pugh jon%g.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: James P. Hogan's works >James P. Hogan's "Twice Upon a Time". Sorry, it was "Thrice Upon a Time" and it was great! I also have enjoyed everything Hogan has written, and especially this book. It got a bit corny from Hogan trying to work the love interest in, since his slant is so obviously hard-sf, but it was acceptable. I loved the idea of passing only information back in time, especially with a PDP-11. He also did a marvelous job setting limits and then exceeding them. The sending of info back in time was limited to 2 weeks, but they sent a program that downloaded, and it sent a program that downloaded, etc. It also had a very logical and consistent theory of time and the conservation of everything. > Does anybody know if he has any short works? I read just about every anthology I can get my hands on and I can't remember ever seeing any by him. I'll know better once I finish transcribing my library into my MacIntosh. It will help a lot when I do those "What story was that where ..." searches because I'll cross reference by short story, author and book. I'm also planning on a keyword scheme for plot, but there are only so many hours in the day. By the way, be sure to read _The_Genesis_Machine_ by Mr. Hogan. It is great. The best solution to detente I have ever read, but then I like the idea of absolute power with no corruption. I guess that's why I still like Superman, even though the comics are too silly. I'll just have to make mine Marvel. Although there is a great comic called _Mage,_the_Hero_Discovered_ being published. Does anybody else like it or have you even seen it? Good stuff. -- Jon Pugh -- ------------------------------ Subject: James P. Hogan Date: 24 Apr 85 13:45:14 PST (Wed) From: Dave Godwin There is one short story by Hogan that I know of. It was published several years ago in one edition of Kim Baen's old Destinies bookazine. The title was something vaguely ( I'm no where near my library ) like 'Silver Shoes for a Princess. That title is undoubtedly a bit off, though. It was quite a good story, actually. Everything else by Hogan has been, to my recollection, a novel. My favorite was a twist on the standard time travel story, 'Thrice Upon a Time'. Read this one, folks. Good book. Dave ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: re: Stephen King Date: 24 Apr 85 13:30:12 GMT > From: cbscc!rsu (Rick Urban) > ...there was a reprinting of "Cycle of the Werewolf" recently by > New American Library, while my understanding was that the edition > put out by the Land of Enchantment Press was to be the only one. > Call it greed or public demand, there have been efforts to make > King's less mainstream works available to the public, though I > doubt if mass market editions of "The Dark Tower" are on the > horizon. I got the impression that the NAL edition of CYCLE was done to be a tie-in to the movie SILVER BULLET, which is adapted from that story. Why it was published so far in advance of the movie, I don't know, unless the movie was pushed back from a Spring to a Fall release. As for THE DARK TOWER, no doubt you've noticed that it *wasn't* listed in THE TALISMAN. > P. S. Some people have asked me where I get my information. > Well, let's see: > Time, Newsweek, USA Today, The New York Times, Publishers > Weekly, Library Journal, The West Coast Review of Books, Variety, > The Hollywood Reporter, Starlog, Fangoria, Cinefantastique, > Starburst, Booklist, Viking Books, New American Library, Putnam > Publishing Group, Douglas Winter's "Stephen King: The Art of > Darkness", Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine, Forthcoming Books > in Print, Jerry Boyajian... Wow. I'm in heady company indeed! I'm flattered. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 06:38 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: Clifford D. Simak Someone mentiond ths author a few weeks ago and I'm just now getting around to confirming that he has other fans on the net. In fact I've just finished rereading (most of) the sixteen or so of his novels I possess, and I'Ve come (once again) to the conclusion that he is perhap my favorite SF author. Favorite books would, I guess, rather obviously be "City" and "Way Station" - the two Hugo winners as I recall. I would also recommend most of his other books (described as "pastoral" or "bucolic" by many) - escpecially "Time is the Simplest Thing" "Ring Around th Sun" and "Mastodonia". Does anyone out there have a Simak bibliography? (Jayembee?). deryk. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 21:09:53 pst From: Dennis Cottel Subject: Re: Wilhelm's WELCOME, CHAOS I have to agree on all points with Donn Seeley's review of Kate Wilhelm's WELCOME, CHAOS. I've been reading her other work ever since I read and enjoyed WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG a few years ago. Unfortunately, none has really fit my tastes as well -- until WC. But this is a great story -- one that will keep you up past your bedtime if you start it in the evening! (And then it took me a while to get to sleep....) Donn mentions avoiding the cover blurbs on this book: I have been burned too often by serious spoilers in the dust jacket overleaf, in quotes on the back cover, or on the first (blurb) page of a paperback. Lately I try to pick my books by author or recommendations (from the net :-) without reading this material. Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA 92152 (619) 225-2406 dennis@nosc.ARPA sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis ------------------------------ From: ukc!sah@topaz.arpa (S.A.Hill) Subject: BRAZIL (review) Date: 25 Apr 85 12:16:40 GMT BRAZIL ====== BRAZIL is the latest film to spring from one of the Monty Python team. In this case Terry Gilliam. Gilliam was responsible for all those marvelous animations and for the sets in The Life of Brian. BRAZIL is simply the best film I have seen in years. It blends an alternative world (all too similar to our own) with a dark sense of humour. The world created recalls Orwellian images; a place where bureaucracy has taken over and individuals are forgotten behind the masks of their own occupations. Great attention has been paid to detail; you see company logos on equipment and the computers are real computers with all the works visible. Gilliams humour is never far away and is used to great effect breaking tension and keeping the audience on its toes. He switches from dream to reality without warning, but with devastating results. The images he uses are sometimes nighmarish, often amusing, and always bizarre. The special effects are subtle - you know they're there but do not notice them at the time, and spectacular - eg. flying scenes that look real. BRAZIL? Why BRAZIL - well all I can say is that it comes from the song of the same name. The theme haunts us through the entire film (and for some days thereafter). It can be both joyous and full of life or heavy and depressive. The film is difficult to classify. It could be SF, but in the sense that 1984 is. It could be humour, but don't go to see it if you want to be laughing all the time. It is surreal at times, but all too real at others. Well, I shall not attempt to describe the plot - too much happens, and it is best left for the viewer to interpret when she/he sees it. I have attempted to put into words what I felt of the film, but it is such an impressive production laden with abstract ideas and deep emotion that the only way you will be able to appreciate what I have attempted to describe is to see the film. If you go on a Friday it will give you all weekend to recover. Steve Hill. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 24 Apr 85 23:40:19 PST Subject: 'Cats Eye' - Negative Review I enjoyed the first of the trilogy the best. The pacing was fine, and the story idea seemed original. The second story was so obvious in its plotting, I couldn't wait for the next story..it had to better then this... ***** Spoiler Warning ***** The third story was good. It brought in the cat, presented a new situation, and set the cat up as hero. The parents (of course) never believed the child until the very end....then they decide to forget the entire affair (what would the neighbors think)...Why? So the kid could blackmail the parents into admitting their error! Why couldn't the story end with a positve note of the parents learning from their ways, and apologizing to their kid? Nope, parents are nasty people. They work best under blackmail.... Was that the unifing theme of the film? (Besides the cat) ---->Victor O'Rear ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: WIZARDS Date: 24 Apr 85 18:50:23 GMT GOOD@ACC writes: > >HOWEVER, NECRON-90 (PEACE) was a fairly blatant ripoff of a >character created by the late Vaughn Bode. > >His most haunting character, Cobalt-60 (sound familiar already ?), >was a mutant humanoid who spent most of his time hunting down and >killing non-mutant humanoids, in an attempt to establish his own >kind as "normal" and to punish the humans for creating a >radioactive wasteland. Bakshi's NECRON-90 was almost identical in >form to Cobalt-60, right down to the beast they rode into battle. >The only difference to me was that NECRON-90 decided to stop and >smell the roses, and Cobalt-60 would have blasted them with never a >second thought. > >It was plagarism all right, but Vaughn Bode was already dead, and I >suppose his heirs just didn't want to fight it I talked to Mark Bode at a con a while back, and blatant ripoff isn't the word. As a matter of fact, Bakshi borrowed some drafts from Vaughn Bode of the Cobalt-60 character and then proceeded to add them to his movie. That isn't plagarism, that's theft. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of clearcut law about it, and it looks like Bakshi is going to be away with it. For those that are interested, Epic magazine has been carrying Mark Bode's version of Cobalt-60 as a continuation of the work started by his father. Mark (being assisted by Larry Todd, I believe) is doing a good job, but he isn't his father, and it shows. Vaughn didn't get very far on Cobalt-60 while he was alive because he found it just too depressing. Reading Mark's work, based on what his father did do, notes, and his own ideas, shows why. :From the closet of anxieties of: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl ------------------------------ From: edison!dpm@topaz.arpa (Dave P. McClurg) Subject: Re: computer SF? Date: 22 Apr 85 17:25:48 GMT > This might be treading on old ground, but I'm curious what > people think is the best SF book (or story) they've read that has > a computer as the main 'character' or an integral part of the > story... > Dave Taylor *Alejandra Variations* by Paul Cook is radically different from other COMPUTER SF books. That is, no blatant presence of blinking lights or personfication is used to tell an otherwise boring story. I think it may be the only SF book that Cook has written. The book is composed of 3 or 4 variations which are not short stories, but scenarios that the computer creates. They are somewhat like dreams, only their content is controlled by the computer. The computer, whose name is Mnemonos 9 and sex is female (the computer seems to think so), does this by altering brain chemicals and such to stimulate visions, senses, etc... One of the operants, which is a person who gets hooked up to the computer, has a sexual hangup with the last girl he loved and the computer reacts to this by eventually going sentient. Some really interesting sex in hypothetical futures is adroitly described by cook (positions, etc). The flavor of *Alejandra Variations* is not just that of a sex crazed computer but has philisophical attempts to explain artificial intelligence. It reminded me of the SHIP in Frank Herbert's book *The Jesus Incident*. David McClurg at Virginia Tech ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Apr 85 1425-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #137 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 26 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 137 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury (4 msgs) & Hogan & A Request Answered & Laser Books & The 1985 Hugo Award Nominations, Miscellaneous - Alien Races & Atlanta Book Stores ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 00:15:08 est From: hmiller%mit-speaker@mit-athena.ARPA (Herb Miller) Subject: Re: Looking for obscure juveniles - The House I have found reference to 2 stories named "The House". One is in Amazing Feb '47, the other in Unknown Worlds Dec '41. However, both of these are horror stories, and probably not what you wanted. I believe you are referring to "There Will Come Soft Rains" in The Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury. Last that I know of, this was reprinted by Bantam in 1976. - Herb ...decvaxmit-athenahmiller ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 00:34:01 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Story request -- "The House" > How about a short story called The House. It is about a > futuristic house on the outskirts of a city that has been recently > nuked. The story is "There Will Come Soft Rains," by Ray Bradbury. I believe it can be found in _The_Illustrated_Man_. The house was entirely mechanized/computerized and kept behaving as though its late inhabitants were still alive, even to the extent of cooking food (apparently there was enough stored for a few months), which is what eventually killed it. A grease fire started when the house was cooking an egg for breakfast, and spread through the house too fast to be contained. Really a rather tragic death scene. --Peter Alfke (jpa144@cit-vax) ------------------------------ Subject: stories of automatic houses (slight spoiler) Date: 25 Apr 85 23:01:40 PST (Thu) From: Alastair Milne Somebody asked about a story where a house ran everything by itself, in the assumption that it was serving the occupants, but the occupants were actually dead. Though I suspect the idea has been used in several places, the place from which I know it is one of Ray Bradbury's "Martian Chronicles". The house was evidently well removed from the centre of the nuclear explosion that devastated the area (since it's still standing, and running pretty well), but still close enough that all that's left of the occupants, who appeared to have been enjoying an afternoon on the front lawn, is shadows burned into the paint. I don't remember the name of the chronicle: something like "The Spring of Silver Showers" (which wouldn't be too surprising from the author of "I Sing the Body Electric"). The date was August 202x, where x may be 6. How did the house keep going? Where did the power come from? I don't recall whether the story says, but I imagine that private generators or batteries may have been brought on-line automatically when regional power failed. It was, after all, that kind of house. Bradbury seldom seems to concern himself with details like that. He seems to prefer mood and coloration, using details only where they contribute to these. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thu 25 Apr 85 19:59:03-EST From: SE.SAMURAI%MIT-EECS@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #134 With regard to Gary's description of a "juvenile" sf plot, it sounds like one of the chapters of Bradbury's The Martian Chronicles. I think it is the chapter which occurs sometime after the migration to Mars and the resulting nuclear war. It also reminds me a little of Simak's City, in which a robot servant maintains the house of his masters for centuries after the demise of the human race. James Kiso [Moderator's Note: Thanks to all the people who responded with the same or similar information: r.mitchell (ahuta!jrrt@topaz) jayembee a.k.a Jerry Boyajian (boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL) FIRTH@TL-20B kdale@MINET-VHN-EM William M. York (York@SCRC-QUABBIN) Craig Berry (muddcs!cberry@topaz) ] ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 25 Apr 1985 06:41:46-PST From: mccoy%orc.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gary McCoy 247-2047) Subject: J.P. Hogan I'm afraid The Code of the Lifemaker is the only Hogan book I've never been able to finish. I have tried to read it twice, and get about halfway, then never seem to continue. I had really been looking forward to this book, and had checked bookstores for weeks when I knew it was coming (it was advertised in Scientific American). I am a big Hogan fan though, and have read many of his books twice. I like "hard science" in my science fiction and Hogan delivers. I also like Forward for the same reason although his first book (Dragon's Egg) is much better than the second. I almost didn't read this book because of the title. I've never read Hogan for the personalities of his characters. The environment he creates for them doesn't seen real, and indeed they don't seem complete people. I do read Hogan for the ideas he creates .e.g. AI. His book The Two Faces of Tomorrow should be read by all those interested in AI. It shows the problems encountered very well It has been two years since his last book (can that be right?). He had been writing books and releasing books yearly before this. I also remember being disappointed with the quality of the hardcover edition, and being disappointed that the original release was hardcover (who makes these decisions?). I too would like to have his address. I want more Hogan books, but I want more of the Hogan who wrote The Two faces of tomorrow. I really enjoyed Voyage From Yesteryear (is that right?). Again some of the ideas here appealed to me, and perhaps I liked the planet he created more than I should have. Gary McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Wed 24 Apr 85 19:37:01-EST From: Paul Roberts Subject: Re: "Does anyone recall this book.." Sounds to me like a story I once read in Analog called "All Day Wednesday". Every day was - guess what ? - the same Wednesday. Bit of a vague pointer as I can't remember the author or even approximate date, and the issue itself is 3000 miles away. Oh to be in England, now that April's here ! Paul ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is Bits) Subject: Laser books Date: 24 Apr 85 15:13:01 GMT Jerry Hewett says Laser books gave away books at cons and this might be why they went out of business. Well, at Boskone XII ('75) a publisher was giving away Perry Rhodans (limit: 4 per visit), but the only people I saw taking them were a couple of 12-year-olds. What number is P R up to now? My wild guess is that Harlequin wasn't getting nearly as big a return as they get from their other book lines, and giving them away was an attempt to gain a better name among science fiction fans, many of whom were biased against the publisher. I also think that the publisher didn't have a feel for the right audience for their books, and may have been aiming for an inappropriate age group. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.DEC@decwrl.ARPA DEC, LMO4/H4, 150 Locke Drive, Marlborough, MA 01752 ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!jeanne@topaz.arpa Subject: Hugo Award Nominations Date: 23 Apr 85 16:38:53 GMT Following are the just announced 1985 Hugo Nominations. The awards will be given at Worldcon; this year the con is in Melbourne, Australia, the weekend of Aug. 22-26. BEST NOVEL NEUROMANCER--William Gibson (Ace) JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE--Robert A. Heinlein (Del Rey) THE INTEGRAL TREES--Larry Niven (Del Rey) EMERGENCE--David R. Palmer (Bantam) THE PEACE WARD--Vernor Vinge (Bluejay) An aside: the Gibson and Palmer books are both first novels. BEST NOVELLA "Cyclops"--David Brin (Asimov's 3/84) "Valentina"--Joseph R. Delaney & Marc Stiegler (Analog 5/84) "Summer Solstice"--Charles L. Harness (Analog 5/84) "Elementals"--Geoffrey A. Landis (Analog 12/84) "PRESS ENTER"--John Varley (Asimov's 5/84) BEST NOVELETTE "Bloodchild"--Octavia Butler (Asimov's 6/84) "The Lucky Strike"--Kim Stanley Robinson (Universe 14) "Silicon Muse"--Hilbert Schenck (Analog 9/84) "The Man Who Painted the Dragon Griaule"--Lucius Shepard (F&SF 12/84) "The Weigher"--Eric Virdcoff & Marcia Martin (Analog 10/84) "Blued Moon"--Connie Willis (Asimov's 1/84) "Return to the Fold"--Timothy Zahn (Analog 9/84) BEST SHORT STORY "The Crystal Spheres"--David Brin (Analog 1/84) "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, Everything"--George Alec Effinger (F&SF 10/84) "Rory"--Steven Gould (Analog 4/84) "Symphony for a Lost Traveler"--Lee Killough (Analog 3/84) "Ridge Running"--Kim Stanley Robinson (F&SF 1/84) "Salvador"--Lucius Shepard (F&SF 4/84) BEST NON-FICTION SLEEPLESS NIGHTS IN THE PROCRUSTEAN BED--Harlan Ellison (Borgo) THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA--Dr. Willis E. McNelley, ed. (Berkely/Putnam) THE FACES OF SCIENCE FICTION, Patti Perret (Bluejay) IN THE HEART OR IN THE HEAD: AN ESSAY IN TIME TRAVEL-- George Turner (Norstrilia) WONDER'S CHILD: MY LIFE IN SCIENCE FICTION--Jack Williamson (Bluejay) BEST DRAMATIC PRESENTATION DUNE GHOSTBUSTERS THE LAST STARFIGHTER STAR TREK 3: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK 2010 BEST PROFESSIONAL EDITOR Terry Carr Edward L. Ferman Shawna McCarthy Stanley Schmidt George Scithers BEST PROFESSIONAL ARTIST Vincent DiFate Tom Kidd Val Lakey Lindahn Barclay Shaw Michael Whelan JOHN W. CAMPBELL AWARD (not a Hugo, but awarded at the same time. It goes to the best new writer) Bradley Denton Geoffrey Landis Elissa Malcohn Ian McDonald Melissa Scott Lucius Shepard Nominees in this category are eligible for two years. Shepard is the only nominee this year in his second year of nomination. The others wil be eligible again next year. If anyone is interested in the semi-pro and fan categories, send me email--this message is getting awfully long. Also, if anyone is interested in joining the convention (as either an attending or a supporting member--both get to vote), send me email and I'll send you that info. ------------------------------ From: unc!walker@topaz.arpa (Douglas Walker) Subject: Re: Where are they? Date: 16 Apr 85 13:45:17 GMT >barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry) writes: >...most estimates of the number of advanced technological >civilizations that might presently exist in our galaxy are quite >low. Even the most optimistic estimates seem to predict only the >tiniest percent of the stars in our galaxy warm the homes of >civilized beings.... > > Let us suppose that, as per Sagan and Shklovsky, only a few >stars spawn high-tech civilizations that survive to at least a few >centuries past our present level of technology. My question is, >what is to prevent at least one of these civilizations from sending >colonies out to neighboring star systems? This may be nit-picking, but... When the Europeans expanded into the New World, did they spawn a new civilization? I think a colony of a planet is more accurately considered part of the same civilization as the parent. Sagan and Shklovsky's reasoning applies to the number of planets *producing* advanced civilizations, not *hosting* advanced civilizations. >... And what is to keep those colonies from spawning further >colonies, etc., etc., out to the edges of the galaxy? What if this >is, in fact, the present state of our galaxy? Galactic >overpopulation? Possible. The number of planets capable of supporting life is, at least according to S/S, small, so... > This is not unreasonable. There is no reason to believe that >we humans won't start doing it in a century or two... Whoa! I don't see us doing anything of the sort! I can see us expanding into space, perhaps L5-type colonies, exploitation of space for factories, etc. BUT I don't see the US or any other government funding a colony to another star without FTL. There would be little or no possible return from such a colony that could not be gotten from a smaller scientific team. The European powers expected gold, spices, etc from the new world; this implies two-way travel. Sure, it took several months to get there, but that's nothing compared to, say, 500 years to get to Alpha Centauri at 1240 kilometers/second average velocity. And Alpha Centauri is only 4.something light years away. > Faster-than light propulsion is not required; many means >(suspended animation, generation ships, near-light speeds) have >been proposed whereby we could colonize nearby stars without FTL. >Given O'Neil-type colonies, even stars without suitable planets >could become the home stars of future colonies. I've never heard of O'Neill-type colonies, but if they are colonies with no home planet, why do we need to put them around other stars? The only reason would be lack of room or resources here, and I don't see us using up all the surface space of a 93,000,000 mile radius sphere soon. Read up on Dyson Spheres and Niven-type Ringworlds. We might use up all easily accessible resources in the solar system at some point, but certainly not in the next few millenia. > How long would it take us to fill up the galaxy? Not as long as >you think. Let's say that each human colony only spawns a new >colony every 500 years. The number of human-settled star systems >would then double every 500 years. At this rate, we populate the >galaxy in *less* than the ~90,000 years it takes to *cross* the >galaxy at the speed of light! This assumes that when a colony is spawned, the sister colony instantly arrives at its location. This is not true even for the first colony, as argued above, but it is even less true of the original colonies. The picture you give has a constantly expanding sphere of colonied stars. The planets at the center of this sphere would be quite a ways from the edge of the sphere! Their colonies would need to travel thousands of light years instead of four or five light years. Another problem: if we are actually looking for habitable planets rather than sowing planetless colonies, we must work around the center of the galaxy. The center of the galaxy consists of population I stars, which are much older than our sun ( a population II star). These population I stars were formed when there were far fewer heavy elements in the universe - indeed, the heavy elements the earth was formed from probably were produced in the hearts of a pop I star. pop I stars will have no habitable planets. Thus, the sphere is even more skewed. I also question the ability of a brand-new colony to reproduce in only 500 years (as well as its motivation to) but that's another story. All in all, I don't see non-FTL (STL?) colonization of other solar systems. But then again, if some sort of CHEAP propulsion is developed that would allow private organizations to try... and some sort of near-perfect suspended animation or balanced ship-sized ecosystem is developed.... I sure hope I'm wrong! ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 24 Apr 1985 07:40:40-PST From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: ATLANTA BOOK STORE ADDRESSES Addresses for some Atlanta book stores: Science Fiction & Mystery Book Shop 752 1/2 N. Highland Ave. NE Atlanta, GA 30306 (404) 875-7326 (New books/magazines, run by Mark Stevens) Yesterday Tomorrow-Inc 1923 Peachtree Road NE Atlanta, GA 30305 (404) 355-4895 (This is a very good rare & used bookstore, they mostly deal in sf with some main stream stuff. Run by Grover Deluca, Grover has some good contacts and has a good record of finding books for people.) Book Nook 3342 Clairmont Atlanta, GA 30341 (404) 633-1328 (Used & new books (limited new selections) with fair selection of sf. They do stamp book nook & address inside all of their used books, (I hate this myself). They do carry a lot of Donald Grant stuff) That's all for now, Ken Cobb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Apr 85 1533-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #138 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 26 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 138 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Lee & Wilhelm & Native Tongue & The 1985 Hugos & A Request, Films - Wizards (3 msgs) & Buckaroo Banzai, Television - Dr. Who Convention & Outer Limits ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hou2h!mr@topaz.arpa (M.RINDSBERG) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 25 Apr 85 20:43:38 GMT > Does anyone know when "With Hourglass in Hand" by Piers Anthony > will be out in paperback? (I believe that's the title, or at least > close) It's the second of his current series 'Incarnations of > Immortality' and about someone who gets the job of Chronos, keeper > of time, etc. etc. The first book was about an average Joe in a > future world who gets the job of Death and was not bad. It would > have been great if he hadn't preached for so long about > euthanasia. This seems to be the only serious SF that Anthony > wishes to write (do NOT send replies about "BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT" > or the Xanth series - I could flame about those for a month and a > half) If you like Anthony's stuff at all, do yourself a favor and > read "Macroscope" or the Cluster 'trilogy' (it's at four books > now, I believe). These blow those punny fantasy potboilers right > out of the water. The book has not come out in paperback yet, but I check every week at the two local bookstores (WB & BD). I don't know when they should be coming out. Also the name of the book is "Bearing an Hourglass" Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 03:31:57 pst From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Unquiet Dead Kill The Dead, Tanith Lee, 1980, DAW paperback This book is in my opinion, by far the best of Tanith Lee's fantasy. If you've enjoyed the Cyrion stories, or the Quest for the White Witch, you wont want to miss this. It is the story of Parl Dro, exorcist. His father had been a soldier in some small border war big enough to kill him, and his mother had died a while later, when he was about four years of age. When he was ten he was already working the fields. But as Parl Dro grows old he takes another name, and makes a trade dispeling the half dead. He comes to be feared by ghosts and their lovers. Ghostly existence requires a physical link in the living world, and when that link is transformed the ghost is released. This is the nature of Parl Dro's exorcisms. Parl Dro seeks the Ghyste Mortua, nexus of netherworld existence, and this book is the tale of that quest. ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: Kate Wilhelm's WELCOME, CHAOS Date: 24 Apr 85 18:12:17 GMT > WELCOME, CHAOS (Berkley, 1985, 297pp.) is the most fun novel I've > read by Kate Wilhelm since the excellent WHERE LATE THE SWEET > BIRDS SANG, Hooray! I'm glad to see Wilhelm has a new novel out. I'll definitely have to add it to my reading list. "Where Late The Sweet Birds Sang" was indeed excellent; I recommend it to anyone who loves a gripping plot and convincing characterization in SF. Unfortunately, I wasn't nearly as satisfied with "Juniper Time," which (I think) was her next novel after "Where Late..." The characters were well-drawn, but I found the plot a bit stale (yet another First Contact story a la Lem's "His Master's Voice" or DeLillo's "Ratner's Star"). Anyone out there agree or disagree? Any votes for other Wilhelm books? > It's sort of a pity that Knight's latest novel, CV, doesn't have > more of a Wilhelm influence in it, or so it seems to me. You mean you didn't like "Love Boat Zombies??" :-) I read the serialization of "CV" in F & SF, and was less than impressed. Knight must be hard-up for plotlines. Let's see, we've got this really big boat that can submerge and steer along the ocean currents; let's throw in a few subplots like they do in the B movies (hey! a professor being stalked by a cold-blooded assassin would be just right!!). A-and the perfect touch would be something REALLY WEIRD, like a mind parasite from outer space, and it can take over the people on the boat one by one and then finally at the end the good guys WIN!! Boy, I bet them SF fans will really eat this one up. For sure. --Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: milford!bill@topaz.arpa (bill) Subject: Native Tongue review (Spoiler?) Date: 25 Apr 85 18:17:15 GMT This might be old -- the book has a date of August 1984. Sorry if it was discussed before. _Native_Tongue_'s author has a doctorate in Linguistics and the story seems to reflect much current Language Theory. The main area of action, however, is the war between the sexes - an imagined 25th amendment to the Constitution is given as "No female citizen of the United States shall be allowed to serve, to participate in any capacity in the scholarly or scientific professions, to hold employment ... The natural limitations of women being a clear and present danger ...." Within this world of religious fanaticism and sexual oppression, the earth has somehow made contact with various alien races and there is a need to make linguistic contact and understanding with these races. One solution is to "interface" infants (male and female) to the "aliens in residence (AIRIES)", to have the infants absorb the aliens' languages and cultures. New concepts foreign to the normal earthly-thought-forms can arise and provide for widening of the earth's perspective. The mainstream of the plot is that the women linguists (those who had been interfaced as infants to AIRIES) develop their own language "Laadan" and become 'alien' to their male oppressors. I noted (or imagined -- my own background is Math and Comp Sci) a number of tie-ins to Chomsky and (French) Structuralism: that the human mind is structured toward particular grammars and 'reality' is structured to accord with these grammars. What would happen when humans encounter aliens whose minds are structured differently? Could communication occur? Would there be changes (permanent?) in the Weltanschauung of both sides? Would humans who could communicate become 'alien'? These questions are raised as side thoughts in _Native_Tongue_ and are indeed quite thought provoking. Another side-idea presented but not explicitly followed up is: what is the perception of the alien who is maintained so to impress its language upon an infant -- would it perceive itself as a captive or a teacher? would it feel itself under duress in exposing its language? Would it 'sabotage' the infants' minds to protect its language and culture? In a round-about way these subthemes are tied into the main story and perhaps are used to indicate how alien men and women are to each other. There's only a few complaints -- the 'battle between the sexes' theme seems rather too black-white (but then isn't a +/- bifurcation central to structuralism? (:-)). Also there are the usual science-fiction misinterpretations of Goedel's Theorem and uncomputability results. One last thing, "an early grammar and dictionary of Laadan are available ... write to Laadan, Route 4, Box 192-E, Huntsville AR 72740 ... enclose a stamped, self-addressed envelope". Disclaimer:I have no idea if this might be a put on. ------------------------------ From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA Subject: Re: Hugo Award Nominations Date: 26 Apr 85 00:21:02 GMT >Following are the just announced 1985 Hugo Nominations. >BEST NOVEL > >NEUROMANCER--William Gibson (Ace) >JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE--Robert A. Heinlein (Del Rey) >THE INTEGRAL TREES--Larry Niven (Del Rey) >EMERGENCE--David R. Palmer (Bantam) >THE PEACE WARD--Vernor Vinge (Bluejay) That should be "The Peace War", not "Ward." Being amazed that I've read them all, I can't help but comment. Surely, those don't represent the best sf novels of the year '84? The books are all good, but the best of the bunch (TPW) isn't anything special. Could someone enlighten me as to the prerequisites a novel needs to be eligible for a Hugo? Copyright date? Publication date? In which country? Thanx, << come on--what girl wants to see a movie in which there is only one female character>> I don't know, but this woman, for one, still considers WIZARDS one of her all time favorite movies. I never even noticed that there was only one female character, scantily clad or not, until you just mentioned it. The male/female character ratio is not something that's of upmost important when I'm watching a movie, but their relationships, chracters, etc. And I thought she was a pretty good character.(My best friend (an active, ardent feminist) considers WIZARDS one of the best movies ever made and was the one who took me to see it.) <> I feel that this is a trivialization of what I thought was a good statement that the movie made. The bad guys weren't just nazis -- the point was that they had no cause to fight for and therefore, even though they were much stronger and better armed, were no match for the "good" side who was fighting for their homes, lives, loves, etc. Fighting for their leader (who didn't do a lot for them to make them brim over with loyalty) to fulfill his kicks wasn't enough to make them stand up against the "strength" of the good side. They needed a strong motivation and the use of Hitler's propaganda was a nice touch because who ever did propaganda better for the same reasons and to the same end?? I mean, who else could convince an entire nation to not only allow and condone concentration/ extermination camps, but fight the rest of the world for the right to use them? I like the thought that the strength of your convictions can make you strong and that lack in them makes you weak and ineffectual. It also frightens me to watch the power of propaganda like Hitler's, but I think its important to remind ourselves of this fact, lest we allow something like that to happen again. I think Wizards did a good job of showing both of these ideas. ~Brenda ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: WIZARDS Date: 24 Apr 85 17:57:18 GMT > From: Greg Goodknight > I enjoyed WIZARDS. Bakshi is a good storyteller, and I remember > being thoroughly entertained. The animation was, of course, not up > to what Disney or even Warner Bros. used to crank out, but at the > time of release Bakshi was probably doing the best animation > (measured in quality/kilobucks/minute) of anyone in the business. > > HOWEVER, NECRON-90 (PEACE) was a fairly blatant ripoff of a > character created by the late Vaughn Bode. Bode was probably best > known for a delightfully disgusting creature named "Cheech Wizard" > that was published regularly in the early '70s in the National > Lampoon, until Bode's unfortunate demise. > > It was plagarism all right, but Vaughn Bode was already dead, and > I suppose his heirs just didn't want to fight it (I never was > aware of any legal action). Stealing ideas from dead artists seems > ghoulish to me, and my personal respect for Bakshi dropped quite a > bit. (Insert here the usual disclaimer about sketchy memories of > things and people in past decades.) > "I think we're all Bozos on this bus" ------ Yes, I loved that movie as well. And yes, it was a direct ripoff of Vaughn's. Not that they (Barbara, Vaughn's wife, and Mark, their son...) don't need the money, but according to Mark, it mainly get's annoying after hearing the 40th person at a SF/comic convention say "Oh, yeah! Those are characters from wizards!!". Since Mark's a friend of mine, I thought I'd say that his work is being published in EPIC magazine (at this very moment, I think). Gary ------------------------------ From: dspo!tallman@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: WIZARDS Date: 25 Apr 85 16:26:13 GMT One thing that bothered me about WIZARDS was that the first few minutes of the film were not animated. Instead, the camera pans over some uncolored, unfinished sketches. It seemed that Bakshi had gotten tired of drawing or had a low animation budget. Perhaps it was meant to indicate the dim past as a background to the main story, but I still did not like it. C. David Tallman - dspo!tallman@LANL or {ucbvax!unmvax,ihnp4}!lanl!dspo!tallman Los Alamos National Laboratory - E-10/Data Systems Los Alamos, New Mexico - (505) 667-8495 ------------------------------ Subject: Buckaroo Banzai theme music Date: 25 Apr 85 22:03:07 EST (Thu) From: obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA Someone some days back claimed off-handedly that the closing theme music to "Buckaroo Banzai" was from Dave Grusin's "Night-Lines" album, specifically, the cut "Kitchen Dance". Well, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I just bought the album, and while it's similar music (in fact, has the theme from "St. Elsewhere" on it), the BB theme music is nowhere on it. Does anyone out there have better information on where the theme music may be found? ------------------------------ From: watarts!dmak@topaz.arpa (Derwin Mak) Subject: Jon Pertwee confirmed as Who Party 7 Guest Date: 18 Apr 85 21:18:49 GMT Re: Doctor Who Convention (Who Party 7) -- Munch Munch CONFIRMED guest of honour: Jon Pertwee Who Party 7 will be held at the Valhalla Inn, Kitchener, Ontario May 25 and May 26, 1985. For more information write to: Who Party 7 104 Kingston Crescent Kitchener, Ontario Canada N2B 2T7 Or send mail to {decvax, utzoo, ihnp4}!watmath!watarts!dmak Membership is limited so send for yours soon! Single day memberships will be sold on the day of the convention only if space permits. Dealers welcome! Tables are 6'X 2.5' and will include table cloths. American dealers please check with us and Customs offices of both countries. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 85 13:34 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: More "Outer Limits" questions 1) Does anyone know of any way to purchase printed copies of the original stories, shooting scripts, etc. for "Outer Limits" episodes? (perhaps from the production company, whomever it was?) 2) Does anyone know who wrote the story and/or screenplay for the two-part episode "The Inheritors"? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 85 1246-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #139 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 139 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Grinnell & Hogan & Kim Stanley Robinson & Time Loop Story (3 msgs), Films - Buckaroo Banzai (2 msgs) & Star Wars, Television - Twilight Zone & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - O'Neill Colonies & Societies Without Morality & Languages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Apr 85 14:30 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: _The_House_Between_Worlds_ To: JEFF%UTCVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA _The_House_Between_Worlds_, by Marion Zimmer Bradley. Since you read it a few years ago, it was probably the Doubleday edition. I /think/ the paperback edition that's now available has been revised and expanded somewhat. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ From: hpfcms!mpm@topaz.arpa (mpm) Subject: Re: What is the name of this book? Date: 15 Apr 85 23:30:00 GMT The name of the book is "Edge of Time" by David Grinnell. Ace Books published it in the late 60s. I too found it engrossing. In fact, I recently reread it and found that it remained a good read. (You may find a copy in a used book store; there are lots of such shops in Denver.) By the way, my old Ace books show that Grinnell wrote another book called "Across Time" (I think), which I've never read. -- Mike "those were the golden years of SF" McCarthy { hplabs | ihnp4 } hpfcla!hpfcms!mpm ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 19:59:12 -0200 To: jon%g.mfenet@lll-mfe.arpa , To: pugh%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Re: James P. Hogan I am a devoted Hogan fan, and I think he's the only writer today whose writing consistently has all the virtues of good SF; still, I must acknowledge some of his limitations. > "Thrice upon a Time" ... also had a very logical and consistent > theory of time and the conservation of everything. "Thrice upon a Time" is the most ambitious attempt I've ever seen at constructing a real hard-core theory of time, and Hogan certainly deserves credit for what he did. Still, the theory eventually becomes so complex that Hogan gets a little confused and starts contradicting himself. ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** For example, remember the explanation of why they never wrote a program which sends a message to the past if it didn't get it, and doesn't send it if it got it? The explanation is: they actually did write such a program, which trapped them in an endless cycle, which was broken by the low-probability event of them never thinking of writing that program. But this just doesn't fit in with the rest of the theory or the events - not sending a message should NOT prevent you from getting it. ****** END OF SPOILER ****** > By the way, be sure to read _The_Genesis_Machine_ by Mr. Hogan. > It is great. The best solution to detente I have ever read, Get serious! Hogan's political ideas are so childish that I'm sure he doesn't believe them himself. "The Genesis Machine" is his worst from this aspect (as well as from the aspect of characters; Hogan got much better in later novels). ****** SUPER SPOILER ****** First of all, Hogan seems to advocate a dictatorship by the scientists (remember how the president suspected Clifford's plans, and the reason why he still let him proceed?). Second, the epilogue is totally unconvincing; the only two possible endings I can see are: 1. The USSR manages to send an agent to cut off the J-Bomb's power supply; this has the result of destroying the USA army, and USSR now easily takes over the world (and then, perhaps, proceeds to make Clifford into a national hero). 2. The USA moves all its military instalations to new locations, and then cuts off the J-Bomb's power supply and builds another one; however, this gave the USSR time to build a J-Bomb of its own, so the "Balance of Power" is not solved, but just continues forever. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccs019@topaz.arpa (Allan McKillop) Subject: Kim S. Robinson Date: 26 Apr 85 03:59:39 GMT Has anyone out there read any books by Kim Stanley Robinson? If so, what did you think? I think he only has two books out (Ice Henge and another whose name escapes me), but I may be wrong. Thanks... Allan McKillop (... ucbvax!ucdavis!minnie:ccs019) ------------------------------ Date: Fri 26 Apr 85 11:47:22-PST From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #135 Heinlein wrote such a story. I forget the name, but it may have been "mugwump" -- it appeared in 3XH, I believe. This poor sucker gets caught in a temporal loop that affects everything but his consciousness -- he knows he is looping but can't do anything about it. THe story is kind of silly, it begins when the hero accidentally dials a MUgwump telephone number rather than a MUrray Hill number. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Fri 26 Apr 85 13:14:40-EST From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Story request, SFL V10#129 Given the description of the disaster and the surprising discovery by one of the main characters, I think the story where the people keep living the same day over and over is actually "The Tunnel Under the World", by Frederik Pohl (at least a story by that name and description is in the copy of "The Best of Frederik Pohl" sitting in front of me....). ------------------------------ From: orca!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine) Subject: Re: Another one of those "Do you recall this book..." Date: 26 Apr 85 21:34:10 GMT naiman@pegasus.UUCP (Ephrayim J. Naiman) writes: >All I remember is that some experiment went haywire and the world >keeps reliving the same day over and over again. The people spend >the first part of every day remembering their situation through >hints they left themselves the day before. As you've already discovered, there are several books that match this vague description. However, the one I thought of when I read Ephrayim's original query was the short story "Absent Thee from Felicity Awhile" by Somtow Sucharitkul. (This story was discussed to death in this newsgroup about two years ago.) Because this story is not easy to find, I include a (**SPOILER**) plot summary. This is from memory, so I may be off on a few details. In the story, Mankind has agreed to live one day over and over for ten thousand years. During this time we will be observed by the alien equivalent of sophomore sociology students. In exchange for this, we will be given membership in the Galactic Union, immortality, and all sorts of other High Tech Good Things. For an hour each day, everybody gets to live a real life. One can communicate with the aliens by talking to special lamp posts, although few people do. (In the main character's time zone, the "hour off" comes very early in the morning, so most people are in bed.) The main character is an actor who is playing a bad Horatio (??) to an equally bad Hamlet in a seedy theatre. Each day, he must relive a fight with his girlfriend and a particularly bad performance. On his "hour off," the actor meets a woman who is killed in a train wreck each day. The actor wonders what will become of her at the end of the ten thousand years, because she is dead at the end of the day. The actor also discovers that through a supreme effort of will he can change his actions during the day, and that each change becomes part of the scene repeated the next day. Thus, over the course of months or years, he can change his day into something different. Near the end of the story, Hamlet is shot by his disgruntled wife (mistress?). The main character attempts to convince the woman from the train that she can change her day and avoid being killed. She refuses to make the attempt, believing that she is doomed and cannot escape her fate. The story is a powerful and memorable comment on the ancient question of free will vs. determinism. As I recall, Somtow was a new talent when this one appeared (1979 in Asimov's, just as a guess) and he has gone on to bigger and better things. (PLUG: Somtow is Guest of Honor at this year's Orycon in Portland. Write me for details.) David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl) [UUCP] (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 22:39:16 est From: Sande Wallfesh Subject: Bukaroo Banzai I just saw _Bukaroo_Banzai_ and was quite amused. The end of the film said that another was forthcoming. Does anyone know more? Sande Wallfesh EE/CS Dept. University of Connecticut wallfesh%uconn.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Apr 85 14:49:54 pst From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai Theme Music obrien@CSNET-SH writes: > Someone some days back claimed off-handedly that the closing theme > music to "Buckaroo Banzai" was from Dave Grusin's "Night-Lines" > album . . . Well, no. . . the BB theme music is nowhere on it. > Does anyone out there have better information on where the theme > music may be found? Having just [re]seen the movie last night (midnight show at the Rialto in LA), I remember that Michael Boddicker was credited for the music. I didn't notice any other music credits, and the end theme is certainly similar to the other music in the film. I've heard of Boddicker before; a quick check reveals that he played synthesizer on Rickie Lee Jones' first album. If there really isn't a BB soundtrack album (I find this hard to believe, although I haven't looked), I would suggest looking in the Jazz or Electronic section of any finer record store . . . --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax] PS: Has anyone heard anything about a sequel? PPS: A lesser-known Caltech tradition is that those cannon-shell- shaped metal cones sometimes found at the corners of buildings are really space aliens in a pupa state, and that they must be regularly kicked to disrupt the growth of the alien inside and prevent it from emerging to wreak havoc. Well, in the Red Lectroids' nest the things were all over the place (albeit the entire cone, not just 3/4 of it). I am severely freaked out. Does anyone else know about this legend, or what the cones were doing in the nest? ------------------------------ From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker) Subject: Next Star Wars Movie Date: 26 Apr 85 22:46:56 GMT Has anybody heard anything about this??? Lucas is being very quiet again. Seems like every time that guy clams up, there's another project in the works. I've heard that he's planning all 3 of the first episodes (the prequel) as one movie... Any ideas? Mike Stalnaker UUCP:{decvax!grendel,cbosgd!seismo}!dolqci!mike AT&T:202-376-2593 USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213 ------------------------------ Date: Thu 25 Apr 85 16:19:25-PST From: Haruka Takano Subject: TZ Here's something I saw in the April 24 edition of the San Jose Mercury, in ``The Grapevine'' section of the paper: Producer Phil DeGuere has purchased from Rod Serling's estate the rights to Serling's "The Night of the Meek" short story - for use in the resurrected version of Serling's vintage "The Twilight Zone" series. Believing the upcoming CBS show will only be as successful as its writing, he's also buying up works by world-class science and psychological fiction authors. Already secured is Stephen King's "Gramma" short story, Arthur C. Clarke's "The Star," Robert Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps," Michael Cassutt's "Red Snow," Wes Cravens's "Perfect Strangers," and Robert R. McCannon's "Nightcrawlers." There will also be a translation of Ray Bradbury's "The Burning Man" and "The Elevator" - and an original Bradbury has written for the show. Also, segments created by Harlan Ellison, who's serving as the "Zone's" supervising writer. Anyone know how reliable these rumors are? I assume the new ``Zone'' is scheduled for the `85 fall season. Anyone know whether they've started production on the series yet? Who'll be the narrator(s)? Haruka Takano ------------------------------ Subject: Romana (slight spoiler?) Date: 28 Apr 85 04:27:33 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne A while ago I got several corrections after I guessed that Romana's full name was Romanadvoradnalunda. The right spelling, I was told, is Romanadvoratrelundar. But hearing her introduce herself in "the Rebos Operation" , I could not make it out as the second. It sounded to be the first. Again, in "Stones of Blood", when the Doctor calls her as a witness in his defence against the Megara: "Miss Romanadvoratnalunda" (or lundar, allowing for the silent "r"). I was beginning to wonder. Then, the other day, I looked at "Warrior's Gate", with the regenerated Romana, and she introduces herself to the slavers as "Romanadvoratrelundar". Somebody slipped. Any inside info. on what happened? Alastair Milne (UC Irvine, Calif.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat 27 Apr 85 13:24:22-PST From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: V10 #137--O'Neill colonies =~ Douglas Walker writes: >I can see us expanding into space, perhaps L5-type colonies, >exploitation of space for factories, etc. and later >>Given O'Neil-type colonies, even stars without suitable planets >>could become the home stars of future colonies. >I've never heard of O'Neill-type colonies Sure you have: The Lagrange-point colonies ARE O'Neill-type colonies... Rich Alderson@Score ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell (Stephen Brust) Date: 27 Apr 85 06:33:35 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >> Suppose you had a world full of creatures who had no morality at >> all. What would they (and their society) be like? >> -- Scott Turner >I recommend James Blish's A CASE OF CONCIENCE, if you haven't read >it. An excellent treatment of (among other things) exactly this >point. > -- SKZB Another interesting book along this line is _A Pity About Earth_, I don't recall the author, but it was half of an old ACE DOUBLE with R. A. Lafferty's _Space Chantey_ on the other side. The people in this book were the most completely amoral characters I can ever remember reading about, and there was a sort of strange fascination in watching them live. Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe) ------------------------------ From: orca!ariels@topaz.arpa (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: Native Tongue review (Spoiler?) Date: 27 Apr 85 15:31:06 GMT > One last thing, "an early grammar and dictionary of Laadan are > available ... write to Laadan, Route 4, Box 192-E, Huntsville AR > 72740 ... enclose a stamped, self-addressed envelope". > Disclaimer: I have no idea if this might be a put on. This is no put-on. I've seen the grammer/dictionary book. It costs a bit ($8.95, I think), so you really have to be interested to get it. Suzzette Hayden Elgin, the author, put a lot of work into Laadan. There was a panel on Laadan and women's language in general at the last NorWesCon (Seattle in March). Some interesting thoughts were discussed. Ariel Shattan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Apr 85 1338-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #140 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 29 Apr 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 140 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Heinlein & King & Powers (2 msgs) & Juvenile Stories & Title Requests, Films - Mad Max & Buckaroo Banzai & Dragonslayer, Television - Outer Limits, Miscellaneous - Computers in SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 Apr 1985 15:35 PST From: Greg Goodknight Subject: Brokedown Palace(s) Some time ago, when Steven Brust announced his next book, "Brokedown Palace", he asked if there were still any 'deadheads' out on the net. Never having read any of his works, but interested that he wrote a book with the same title as one of my favorite songs by the Grateful Dead, I then borrowed "Yendi" and "JHEREG" from a friend at work. I thought the books were a lot of fun, but I learned (the hard way) not to start reading a Brust book late in the evening if I had to go to work the next day. Very hard to put down. The following may have little to do with reality (but then neither did the Dead in the '60s): "Going to leave this Brokedown Palace, On my hands and my knees, I will roll,roll,roll. ... In a bed, in a bed, by the waterside I will lay my head, Listening to the river sing sweet songs to rock my soul." excerpt from Brokedown Palace, written by Robert Hunter and Jerry Garcia Jerry Garcia is the lead guitarist of the band. Could the name JHEREG be derived from JHERE Garcia ? A hunter and a jhereg? Hmmmm. Loiosh was the jhereg that Vlad (the hunter) is friends with in Brust's YENDI and JHEREG. Phil Lesh plays bass in the abovementioned band. Any connection? "Do you know your part, Loiosh?" "Just doing what comes naturally,boss." Methinks SKZB is also a deadhead. Greg Goodknight Hardware Bozo Advanced Computer Communications a.k.a. A Computer Company ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: RAH : FRIDAY Date: 27 Apr 85 06:52:28 GMT Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: >The thing that I found most annoying about FRIDAY was that it >seemed as thought Heinlein had an idea for a novel, and wrote it, >but he couldn't end the story well. Then he remembered this little >short story idea that he couldn't sell (for good reason) so he >changed the short story around a bit and made it into the ending >for the novel. > >I am not saying that this was how it really happened, just that >this is how I imagined it happening after reading the book! Did >anyone else notice the huge discontinuity? Another thing that has been worrying me a little lately, it that the ending of _Friday_ (starting with her off planet mission I think) had a fatal plot flaw in it. The reason it worries me, is because I can't remember what it is now! But I'm not kidding, at the time I caught it, I saw that it made the motivation for her last mission completely implausible. Did anyone else see it, and WHAT THE HECK WAS IT?! Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe) ------------------------------ From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban) Subject: Stephen King Directs! Date: 26 Apr 85 19:15:44 GMT NEWSFLASH! (via USA TODAY for April 26th, 1985) Stephen King will direct his first motion picture for Dino DeLaurentiis starting in July at Dino's studio in North Carolina. The name of the film is "Maximum Overdrive", and is based on King's short story "Trucks", another story from the NIGHT SHIFT collection. I don't know about the rest of you, but it seems unwise to me for King to be using this property, which is so thematically similar to "Christine". I hope he pulls it off. In other news, THINNER just became a #1 bestseller in the NY Times Book Review. Anyone want to lay bets as to how soon it gets snapped up by Hollywood (even though it appears to present difficulties as far as weight for the lead -- maybe DeNiro could play Billy Halleck)? Rick Urban AT&T Network Systems Columbus, Ohio ...!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: DINNER AT THE DEVIANT'S PALACE; Powers; Blaylock; Subject: Ashbless Date: 25 Apr 85 14:14:03 GMT Just a point of interest in this matter -- in the Anubis Gates, you may recall that the protagonist tried to pretend he was an American who had just arrived in England via boat, but was shown to be a liar when he couldn't remember the name of the boat. The person who was quizzing him on this looked up an appropriate boat so that he could make a better lie the next time. The name of the boat? The Blaylock. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 09:39:06 PST To: bang!g.zeep%mit-eecs@mit-mc Subject: Powers book(s) Sorry, WZ, but I'm sitting here with a copy of "The Skies Discrowned" next to me and I can't find one reference to "Epitaph in Rust" anywhere on it. We're definitely talking about the same story judging by your description, but I have no idea where you're getting the EIR title from. Kelly Freas artwork on the cover, man with the golden ear, etc... but not the same title. On other subjects: "Deviants" looked to me like something from the "box of rejected manuscripts" that most authors have lying around. Very disjointed story. After reading "Anubis Gates" I find it hard to believe that "Deviants" has the signs of progressiveness and continuity (as far as quality). I really a book of poetry from "William Ashbless", whomever he/she may be. I'd love to stick in to post the opening poem from AG here on SF-LOVERS, but I don't think copyright laws would allow me to do so. Looks like I'm going to have to hunt for that second Laser press book... Jerry Hewet {bang!crash!jerryh@nosc} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Apr 85 9:17:41 EST From: Joel B. Levin Subject: Re: obscure juveniles To: sf-lovers@rutgers.arpa Cc: ihnp4!hpfcla!fritz@bbncca.arpa >The second one might have been called "Rusty's Spaceship". . . . >they go cruising around the solar system trying to figure out where >our friendly ET came from. Magic pills take care of little >problems like vacuum decompression, oxygen & food starvation, etc. I, too, have been trying to find more about some juveniles I read in elementary school. Gary Fritz's request goads me to make one of my own along the same lines, although what phase I may be going through to arouse this interest I do not care to guess. I have been trying to remember about a certain series of 'novels' (i.e. 4th grade equivalent) about a peculiar inhabited planet which orbits Earth or orbits the sun near Earth. A very special type of lens was required to see this planet, which was why real astronomers didn't know about it; but somehow a kid found such a lens or ran into a visitor from this planet (whom I remember as a nice little man) and got involved in various problems on this planet. Gary's mention of little magic pills reminds me of something in this vein, but it may have been another book I recall. Nothing else in his synopsis rings a bell, unfortunately, but I am interested in being reminded of any stories which featured such pills. Thanks / JBL Arpa: Levin@bbn Usenet: ...{ihnp4,[others?]}!bbncca!levin ------------------------------ Date: Fri 26 Apr 85 07:55:59-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Title requests Hogan's short story is called Silver Shoes for a Princess and was published in Destinies, Vol 1 No 5, Oct/Dec 1979. Judging by the copyright notice, that was the first publication. The story where everyone lives "the same day" over and over seemed familiar to me, and Mr Ayres' description is accurate. It is Algis Budrys: The End of Summer Astounding Science Fiction, Vol XI No 4, April 1955 (at least, that was the British Edition publication). The plot is "The generator broadcast a signal which enabled body cells to repair themselves with one hundred percent perfection. ... But, of course, that included brain cells. ... Amnesia was the price of immortality." Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: rayssd!m1b@topaz.arpa Subject: Mad Max (I) query Date: 25 Apr 85 17:16:27 GMT The movie, Mad Max, as shown on cable, seems to be dubbed into 'American'. I've seen it on both HBO and the Movie Channel with this dubbing. To confirm this, just listen to Mel Gibson's voice in Mad Max. Does the movie exist in the US without this dubbing, i.e. with the original 'Australian' language? Watching the dubbed Mad Max is rather grating on the nerves! They must use the same voices that are used to dub spaghetti westerns! Thanks. Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Box 330, Portsmouth, RI 02871 ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Re: Bukaroo Banzai Date: 27 Apr 85 23:14:50 GMT > From: Sande Wallfesh > I just saw _Bukaroo_Banzai_ and was quite amused. The end of the > film said that another was forthcoming. Does anyone know more? This has been posted before, but I think it's worth doing again; BB was the most entertaining thing I had seen in a theater in years. If you liked the movie, and would like more information on Buckaroo and his entourage, join the BLUE BLAZE IRREGULARS, the official Buckaroo Banzai fan club. Join by writing to The Banzai Institute c/o 20th Century Fox P.O. Box 900 Beverly Hills, CA 90213 You'll receive a nice packet full of information about the film and the characters, with a few souvenir goodies thrown in. Rumor has it that the volume of mail received will have some bearing on whether the second movie is made, so WRITE! Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 -- barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: DragonSlayer Date: 25 Apr 85 18:30:10 GMT > From: Gern > I and several friends of mine enjoyed DragonSlayer a whole lot. > We saw it 3 times. It was a joint effort of Parmount and Walt > Disney Productions. I have the book, but have never had the > chance yet to read it. > > Of course the effects and Dragon were great - it was done by ILM > (Industrial Light and Magic) - (George) Lucas Film's group. > > Now if only I had a VTR... Yes, the Mechanical Effects (the full scale dragon head and baby dragon) were done by ILM, but the hard-to-notice-because-they-are- so-subtle visual effects were done by VCE (Visual Concept Engineering). Like, for instance, when two swords come together and they FLASH, not only did they do the flash itself, but they also added the lens flare that a flash would have created (if it there had been a flash from clashing swords). They also did the resurrection of the wizard sequence as well as many other shorter shots. Gary ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 85 22:45:52 EST From: Elliott Subject: Re:More "Outer Limits" questions In order: 1) I'm not quite sure about this one. Many SF Fan Clubs and/or ST Fan Clubs include scripts and such as part of merchandising. I've seen on several occasions Outer Limits scripts as well as hundreds of others offered. Check out different organizations. 2) Much easier. "The Inheritors" was written by: Sam Newman, Seeleg Lester, and Ed Adamson. Directed by James Goldstone. ------------------------------ From: ukma!sean@topaz.arpa (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: Computers in SF Date: 26 Apr 85 08:57:05 GMT RAOUL@JPL-VLSI.ARPA writes: > I have not seen anyone mention "BOLO" by Keith Laumer. Bolos are > fighting machines that resemble tanks but are intelligent and > autonomous. The book consists of short stories that loosely > follow the development of Bolos. Memorable short stories for me > were "The Last Command" and "War Relic". Good emotional stuff. There was a very nice maze game for the Apple II called BOLO. In it, you negotiated a maze while various machines attacked you. The object was to destroy the enemy power supply. What made it really interesting was that the enemy machines had different characeristics. Some seemed to be able to track you better, others seemed to 'know' how to box you in. Interesting game... Sean Casey UUCP: {hasmed,cbosgd}!ukma!sean or ucbvax!anlams!ukma!sean ARPA: ukma!sean<@ANL-MCS> or sean%ukma.uucp@anl-mcs.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Apr 85 10:53:36 EDT From: Richard G. Turner, PERI-ET, USARI Subject: Ref. Computers in SF The recent query about stories with computers reminded me of one I really enjoyed several years ago. I don't remember title or author, but it seems that it was on the line of short-story, novelette, length. The story was a series of vignettes taking part at various points in man's history, starting with the computer era and ending (or re-beginning) after the universe had run down from entropy. All that was left at that time was a computer which had evolved to the point that it existed as pure energy. Anyone else remember this one? rick ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 May 85 1020-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #141 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 141 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Kim Stanley Robinson & Vinge & Story Search & An Answer & Pittsburgh SF Story Request & Juveniles (2 msgs), Films - Wizards (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Bode (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Apr 85 13:09 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: To Reign in Hell (**** itty bitty teeny weenie spoiler warning ****) WOW! I just read To Reign in Hell (by S. Brust) and it is a rreally grreat book. To be quite honest, I didn't think it was as good as Brin's stuff (sorry SZKB), but it is well worth the paper it is printed on and much more! I really like the fact that it is only a novel - I like series, but I like novels too, and there are too damned few of those around! The characters are great, and the book left me wishing I was a little more familiar with the biblical account of this stuff. In addition, I really like Brust's writing. It never gets in the way, and there is some great humor. I particularly liked the first sentence of the book. I must have read it over four or five times before I turned the page. I liked it enough to go out and buy Jehereg (spelling?), which is waiting on my "to read" shelf. I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English? >>Dave PS: Here is another question unrelated to the general topic. Being unsure where to ask, I will ask the kind-hearted SFLovers. What in blue blazes does :-) mean?? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 05:20:16 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Kim S. Robinson Funny you should ask about Kim Stanley Robinson when the machine you're posting from is at UC Davis, where Robinson is a writing instructor (or at least he was as of last summer or so)... I won't speculate on your motives... Robinson has two books out: THE WILD SHORE (Ace, March 1984, 371pp) and ICEHENGE (Ace, October 1984, 262pp). He apparently has a novel coming out some time this year from Tor titled THE MEMORY OF WHITENESS (source: Terry Carr in UNIVERSE 13). SHORE is a story about life in a post-Holocaust America written in a style reminiscent of realist mainstream novels. It is very strong on characterization and shows a fine attention to prose which is often lacking in generic sf, but the plot, which concerns a young man coming of age on the coast of a dramatically altered Southern California, is very episodic and languorously paced. I liked the book anyway -- I'm still not convinced of the value of the sort of novel which SHORE mimics, but SHORE is modest enough about its goals that I didn't feel intimidated by it... ICEHENGE takes place on the new frontier of the solar system, where Mars is being terraformed and colonies are being established on the moons of the outer planets. Unlike SHORE, this novel is real sf, and it has some interesting ideas about life in the next six centuries which are integral to its plot. The story consists of three segments, each presenting a different point of view on an episode of history which starts with a revolution on Mars and leads up to the discovery of a peculiar artifact at the north pole of Pluto. ICEHENGE reminds me strongly of Gregory Benford's writing, and if you like Benford (as I do) you will really enjoy ICEHENGE. I once went to a reading given by Robinson at UCSD, sponsored by the Lit Department. It proved to be a peculiar experience. Robinson got his degree from this department and he was introduced by his former advisor, whose description of SHORE made it sound like a major advance in the history of Marxism; the rationale for this analysis went over my head... The reading went well -- Robinson picked one of the more fun and amusing anecdotes from SHORE -- and when he was finished I was all prepared to ask him questions about SHORE and about his dissertation on the novels of Philip K Dick. It was then that I discovered that I was perhaps the only actual sf reader in the room: everyone else seemed to be a Lit student or faculty member, except for David Brin, who had spent most of the reading sitting in the back of the room doodling and peering through photocopies of physics papers. Nobody wanted to know more about the structure of SHORE'S universe or Robinson's opinions about Dick; they wanted to know why he was writing sf, of all things, and how much money there was in it. Robinson had facetious anecdotes about growing up in the LA suburbs and suddenly acquiring an interest in science when as an undergraduate he was forced to take a physics- for-English-majors class. I'm afraid I grew progressively less impressed. I stupidly managed to divulge my naivete by asking if he would write any more about the SHORE universe ('If you want to see more about it, write it yourself and send it to me. Next question?')... The only remotely amusing exchange occurred when I asked what he had against Orange County (Disneyland takes a nuclear strike in SHORE): Brin: 'Ever driven down Katella?' Robinson: 'The place DESERVES to be nuked...' After I thought about the incident, though, I realized that Robinson wasn't so obnoxious after all: EVERY author I've ever met in person has been thoroughly artificial in just that way. It must be an occupational disease... Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: jp@lanl.ARPA Subject: Looking for "True Names" by Vernor Vinge Date: 29 Apr 85 14:36:04 GMT Several years ago I read a review that impressed me enough that I wrote down the reference. I have never been able to find the book and I don't even remember anything about the review other than I thought it was an interesting story. The referenced book was Binary Star #5 published by Dell Books. It contains 2 stories, one of which is "True Names" by Vernor Vinge. Any pointers to this book or the story will be appreciated. Thanks, Jim Potter jp@lanl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 85 08:45 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Story Search I was trying to find the novel that contains the Agnostic's Prayer. I thought this was in a Zelazny novel, like Creatures of Light and Darkness , but I couldn't seem to find it. Could you folks help me out? Brett Slocum (ARPA : Slocum @ HI-MULTICS) (uucp : ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum) ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker) Subject: Re: Story Search Date: 29 Apr 85 17:20:53 GMT If anyone cares, or might possibly benifit from this posting: The "agnostic's prayer" is on page forty-something in "Creatures of Light and Darkness" by Roger Z. 43, I think...(I looked it up for a friend recently -- No, I don't carry page numbers around in my head!) Enjoy, Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin ...{seismo!ut-sally|decvax!allegra|tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury ... mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA ------------------------------ From: sdencore!mark@topaz.arpa (Mark DiVecchio) Subject: Pittsburgh Sci Fi Story Date: 28 Apr 85 01:56:10 GMT About 15 years ago, I remember reading a SciFi story which took place in the East Liberty neighborhood of Pittsburgh specifically around the East Liberty Police Station. I don't remember any of the plot. I was living in the area at the time as a student at CMU. It was a short story not a novel. Does anyone remember the author or title of the work? Mark C. DiVecchio K3FWT [ihnp4|akgua|decvax|dcdwest|ucbvax]sdcsvax!sdencore!mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 09:58 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Juvenile story search The books you describe about a planet that can only be seen with certain lenses is "Mr. Bass's Planetoid", and other books. I don't remember the author. I was just thinking about these books while reading your message. strange coincidence. What I remember about these books is Mr. Bass who was a charming old man that some kids meet. He shows them in his telescope this strange little planetoid orbiting real close to Earth. Later on they travel there in a space ship. It turns out that Mr. Bass is a native, I think. I don't remember much about the place, but I did enjoy them while in 5th Grade. I seem to recall reading them shortly after I started reading SF. Probably after reading A Wrinkle in Time by M. L'engle, my favorite juvenile book. Brett Slocum (arpa: Slocum@HI-MULTICS) (UUCP: ...!ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum) ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa (Ted Nolan) Subject: Re: obscure juveniles Date: 29 Apr 85 05:44:52 GMT >From: Joel B. Levin >I have been trying to remember about a certain series of 'novels' >(i.e. 4th grade equivalent) about a peculiar inhabited planet >which orbits Earth or orbits the sun near Earth. A very special >type of lens was required to see this planet, which was why real >astronomers didn't know about it; but somehow a kid found such a >lens or ran into a visitor from this planet (whom I remember as a >nice little man) and got involved in various problems on this >planet. > Thanks / JBL I'm glad to know somebody else read those, I used to love them (and still like them) : You are talking about the Mushroom Planet books. I will go out on a limb and say that I think they are by Cameron. The little man you remember is Tycho Bass, a Mycetian (sp?) - that is to say, one of the Mushroom people who now live beside humanity but originally came from somewhere else. That somewhere else is the Mushroom Planet which Bass's new lens (with some great sounding name ) has let him see (the Mushroom people have forgotten their origin). He recruits the young boys (by newspaper add) to build a space ship shell which he can fill. Together they will visit the Mushroom Planet and save the Mycetians living there (it turns out that they all have a dietary deficiency of sulfur). There were several Mushroom Planet books, all involving the boys, but some involving Tycho's cousin (Theo?) after Tycho's mysterious disappearance. The idea of the Mushroom People on Earth was further explored (some of them were not even aware that they were not human. Tycho later comes back (with his absence explained) and the last book (that I know of) was a truly scary one as the boys help the Mushroom people combat an entity (known only as Narrow Brain) that has haunted the Mycetians since the time of King Arthur. I'm afraid the titles have mostly escaped me but the first one was pretty nearly : _The Wonderful Journey to the Mushroom Planet_ and the last one was (exactly) : _Time and Mr. Bass_ (I suggest you look this one up in the card catalog to get the Author's name correct and search for the rest). I'm posting followup on this rather than replying since I hope a good few people with kids will read this : You could do a lot worse than introduce your kids to the Mushroom Planet books. Ted Nolan ..usceast!ted BTW The spaceship went 'pheep,pheep' -- all good spaceships should. Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe) [Moderator's Note: Thanks to all the people who also responded with similar information: Morris M. Keesan (keesan@BBNCCI) Dean Sutherland (Sutherland@TL-20A) Bard Bloom (BARD@MIT-XX) ] ------------------------------ Subject: Re: WIZARDS Date: 28 Apr 85 04:12:46 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne > << come on--what girl wants to see a movie in which there is only > one female character>> There were two, at least. Besides the daughter (Elena?) of the president, there was the consort of the dark leader, the one who stopped Avatar's "elf warrior" friend from killing Elena out of pure anger. Not often seen in the film, but still rather important. She was one of the very few who wanted to stop the slaughter before it started (which cannot have endeared her to her consort). There was also, briefly and in flashback, the mother of Avatar and his brother (what has his name? Black Wolf? Oh well). > . . . I mean, who else could convince an entire nation to not only > allow and condone concentration/ extermination camps, but fight > the rest of the world for the right to use them? I am not a historian, but I believe the secret of the concentration camps was well guarded, even within Germany. Local populations either didn't know about them, or took them for normal prisoner-of-war camps, and knew little or nothing of what was happening inside them (the SS didn't advertise). The camp that Patton's army liberated was near a village that knew nothing of it. The day after the army found that camp, they brought the populace to see it. The next morning the mayor and his wife hanged themselves. All of which I bring up for historic detail only, since fundamentally, I agree with you: Hitler represents the most hideous things that can be done with propoganda, and a mob at your beck and call. > I like the thought that the strength of your convictions can make > you strong and that lack in them makes you weak and ineffectual. > It also frightens me to watch the power of propaganda like > Hitler's, but I think its important to remind ourselves of this > fact, lest we allow something like that to happen again. I think > Wizards did a good job of showing both of these ideas. I really hadn't looked at it this way, but I suppose it did. I feel a little funny, defending Bakshi after the horror he wrought on Lord of the Rings. That has earned him my lasting enmity. Nevertheless, I quite liked Wizards, and I really think it's getting more harsh press than it deserves. The animation was no worse, and in fact was rather better, than a lot of animation seen on TV these days. I thought the characters rather crude, but when it came to it, they came into their own. I liked it enough to go back and see it again (and might even do so a third time if it were playing around here). Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Subject: Re: WIZARDS Date: 28 Apr 85 04:18:09 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne > One thing that bothered me about WIZARDS was that the first few > minutes of the film were not animated. Instead, the camera pans > over some uncolored, unfinished sketches. It seemed that Bakshi > had gotten tired of drawing or had a low animation budget. > Perhaps it was meant to indicate the dim past as a background to > the main story, but I still did not like it. > > C. David Tallman - dspo!tallman@LANL or > {ucbvax!unmvax,ihnp4}!lanl!dspo!tallman Well, it's in good company. Leonardo da Vinci frequently left his pencilled sketches unpainted (even though they started life as the basis of watercolours). Not to say that Bakshi in any way approaches Leonardo, but it does make the practise at least 500 years old. Personally I find it rather enjoyable as a technique, if used judiciously. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 85 09:29 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: pronunciation of Bode In a digital control systems class I took a couple years ago, I used a graph that was called a Bode Diagram or Bode Plot. This was pronounced Boe'-dee, which rhymes with Motie and grody and Cody. This is perhaps the correct pronunciation of Vaughn Bode's name. Brett Slocum ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: pronunciation of Bode Date: 30 Apr 85 03:55:43 GMT Would you believe Bod -uh to rhyme with abode -uh? "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 May 85 1100-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #142 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 142 Today's Topics: Books - Coulson & Wolfe & Story Request & Upcoming Novels, Comics - Mage, Films - Mad Max & Clan of the Cave Bear & Goonies & Star Wars & Brazil, Television - Starlost ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: war@mit-dutch (Chris Warack) Date: 30 Apr 1985 1415-EDT (Tuesday) Subject: What happened to ... I read a couple books a few years ago that caught my interest. They were about a "multi-national" (it was actually a company that was a nation) run by a family. The first book was _Tomorrow's_Heritage_ and the second _Outward_Bound_. I liked them and awaited the third which was "forthcoming." That was about two years ago? What happened? The author was Juanita Coulson. Did she die? Suffer writer's block? ??? Any help appreciated. Send replies to me, war@mit-dutch.arpa. -- Chris Warack ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN Date: 4 May 85 05:19:48 GMT >From: liang@cvl.UUCP (Eli Liang) >What is this? A new NEW sun book? Pray tell more. I still don't know much about this book. The only official word I have on it is very old; it comes from the January 1984 LOCUS article on Wolfe in which he discusses why he quit his job to become a full-time writer: '... I've got the fifth book of the New Sun in first draft, but I haven't done anything on it for months. I plan to pull it out eventually and do the final draft. Comparatively little of the book takes place in the Urth of the Commonwealth. A lot of it takes place in space... The temptation is... to get away from [writing about Urth], because I know the place pretty well and it's time to go and explore a new place.' It's been considerably more than a year since this interview, so I suspect he has had a chance to work on the book some more. Does anyone else have any current information? Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 14:51:53 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" Subject: Yet Another "What's the Title?" While we're on the subject of forgotten children's literature, here's another one I vaguely remember. It was two books in a single volume, sort of "Alice In Wonderland"ish, but with a boy as the main character. I'm fairly sure it was an English book, and I just remember bits and pieces. I know that there was a character called "Thingumbob", and that he collected sealing wax by walking up and down the beach teasing the seals and making them cry, for of course everyone knows that seals cry sealing wax. As I recall, the different kinds of seals (i.e., different ages and genders) cried different colours of wax. There was another character called "The Dumbwaiter", who couldn't talk, and who ran up and down the beach carrying trays of food for people. He was called the Dumbwaiter not because of the food, nor because of being unable to talk, but because he ran up and down. I think both of these characters are from the first half of the book (i.e. the first dream), and I think the second half involved Father Time and some pirates. The only thing I remember other than that is a riddle asked by the pirates, which the boy was tempted to answer "shoes". He saved himself at the last moment by saying "slippers" instead. Any leads at all on this will be greatly appreciated. Morris M. Keesan {decvax,linus,ihnp4,wanginst,wjh12,ima}!bbncca!keesan keesan @ BBN-UNIX.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 85 02:23:28 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Upcoming novels: Tim Powers, William Gibson The May issue of LOCUS has an interview with Tim Powers that confirms and disproves many of the assertions made in the last few postings on the author... Powers explains what the difference is between THE SKIES DISCROWNED and EPITAPH IN RUST, when DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE was actually written, what he really does for a living, and what his next novel will be about. (No, I won't type it all in -- go look it up!) Oh all right: Powers' next novel has the working title 'ON STRANGER TIDES' and is a historical fantasy set in the Caribbean circa 1718, and it involves Blackbeard, voodoo and the Fountain of Youth... Speaking of new novels, I recently read 'Fragments of a Hologram Rose' by William Gibson in INTERZONE 9, and in the accompanying biographical blurb Gibson says that he is '[c]urrently working on COUNT ZERO, a not-quite-sequel to NEUROMANCER, and THE LOG OF THE MUSTANG SALLY, unrelated sf[.]' ('Rose' was Gibson's first published story, which INTERZONE had the courtesy to reprint, and it's very good.) More information on Gibson appears in the May LOCUS, where it is revealed that he won the Philip K Dick Memorial Award for NEUROMANCER; Kim Stanley Robinson was runner-up, for his novel THE WILD SHORE. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: anwar!chuck@topaz.arpa (chuck jann) Subject: MAGE Date: 30 Apr 85 05:59:52 GMT >Subject: James P. Hogan's works >Sender: bp,@topaz.ARPA >By the way, be sure to read _The_Genesis_Machine_ by Mr. Hogan. It >is great. The best solution to detente I have ever read, but then >I like the idea of absolute power with no corruption. I guess >that's why I still like Superman, even though the comics are too >silly. I'll just have to make mine Marvel. Although there is a >great comic called _Mage,_the_Hero_Discovered_ being published. >Does anybody else like it or have you even seen it? Good stuff. > -- Jon Pugh -- MAGE IS FANTASTIC ! I definitely recommend it to everyone. It's one of the most interesting comics around. You really should start at the begining (issue 7 will be out in May) but, LUCKY YOU! Comico has just released THE MAGE BOOK (i think thats the title) a graphic novel consisting of the first 4 issues and you can still find # 5 & 6 at many comics shops that carry "direct sales only" titles. Check it out. cj UUCP address: {ihnp4,decvax,allegra}!philabs!hhb!chuck ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1985 1145 GMT From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. Subject: Film Information Mad Max in the Thunderdome (supposedly the actual title of the US release) Cast: Mel Gibson, Tina Turner, Bruce Spence (the autogyro pilot?) Written, produced and directed by George Miller Scheduled for July release - Bill Weisman ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1985 1145 GMT From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. Subject: Film Information Clan of the Cave Bear Cast: Daryl Hannah, James Remar, Pamela Reed, Tommy G. Waites, John Doolittle Producers: Jon Peters, Mark Damon, John Hyde, and Peter Guber Director: Michael Chapman Screenplay: John Sayles (of "Alligator" and "Return of the Secaucus 7" fame) Scheduled for September release - Bill Weisman ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1985 1145 GMT From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. Subject: Film Information Goonies Cast: Ke-Huy Qwan, Corey Feldman, John Matuszak, Martha Plimpton, Steve Antin, Sean Astin, Josh Brolin, Kerri Green, Jeff Cohen Producers: Spielberg et. al. Director: Richard Donner Written by Chris Colombus Scheduled for June release - Bill Weisman ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Next Star Wars Movie Date: 29 Apr 85 07:29:10 GMT mike@dolqci.UUCP (Mike Stalnaker) writes: > Has anybody heard anything about this??? Lucas is being >very quiet again. Seems like every time that guy clams up, there's >another project in the works. I've heard that he's planning all 3 >of the first episodes (the prequel) as one movie... Any ideas? The last I heard, Lucas was working with the people at Disney putting together a project that would convert Tomorrowland into a Star Wars like theme area. I don't know if this has been finalized, but since it looks to me like the LAST thing Walt would have considered, the existing management structure will probably go for it full speed ahead. Not putting Lucas down, but R2D2 is NOT Mickey Mouse, no matter how short it is.... :From the closet of anxieties of: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!rick@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: BRAZIL (review) Date: 28 Apr 85 23:06:44 GMT I saw this movie at a preview in Hollywood. I found it to be to uneven and confusing to give it a good review. You get dangled along for a while and then find out you were watching someone's dream! I think a lot of the problems with this movie are that it has an identity crisis - it doesn't know if it is a comedy or drama. The humor ranges from slapstick to sophisticated satire. I suspect the average viewer, Joe Q. Public will not like this one. And the ending will leave you stunned in your seat. Rick Gillespie rick@ucla-cs ...!{cepu|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|ucbvax}!ucla-cs!rick ------------------------------ From: spock!captain@topaz.arpa (John Griffin '87 cc) Subject: Re: 1 old TV Show..._S_t_a_r_l_o_g remembers. Date: 24 Apr 85 18:37:20 GMT Regarding that "TV show with Keir Dullea on an Ark...", the Starlog TV episode guides book vol. 1 says the following about _T_h_e _S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t: "Premise: In the year 2790 A.D., a giant Earthship, _A_r_k, drifts through deep space, out of control, its crew having been killed five-hundred years earlier. When the accident that killed the crew occured, the airlocks connecting the ship's domes that housed the last survivors of the dead planet Earth, were sealed. Cut off from the "outside world", many communities simply forgot that they were on a spacecraft. They accepted that their world was fifty miles in diameter and the sky was metal. Content with their lot, no one knew that their world was in grave danger. Without a crew at the helm, the _A_r_k was on a collision course with a sun. Major Characters: Devon: Orphaned when his parents' farm burned, he is somewhat of a dreamer. He has also had to teach himself by asking questions. Unfortunately, he asks the wrong questions which causes his banishment from Cypress Corners. He is naive about some things, but learns quickly when he discovers the truth. Rachel: She is in love with Devon and, because of this love, follows him into the depths of the _A_r_k. Raised to be nothing more than the servant of the man she is promised to at birth, she soon learns to enjoy the control over her own destiny her departure from Cypress Corners gives her. Garth: Rachel was promised to Garth for marriage. Garth, a blacksmith by trade, does not love Rachel and wishes the elders would give Devon permission to marry Rachel. When Devon and Rachel escape, Garth is forced by a code of honor to bring Rachel back and kill Devon. About the show: _T_h_e _S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t premiered on television loosely based on a concept created by Harlan Ellison. Meticulously and lovingly devised by Ellison and brought to perfection by scientific advisor Ben Bova, the series promised to be a monumental step for SF television. Ellison had contracted great SF writers such as A.E. Van Vogt, Frank Herbert, Joanna Russ, Thomas M. Disch, Alexei Panshin, Phillip K. Dick, and Ursula K. LeGuin to write storylines that would be scripted by the best Canadian writers available. Douglas Trumbull would be executive Producer and create the special effects via the Magicam system. It looked good. It sounded good. It fell apart. _T_h_e _S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t regressed into a low-budget, syndicated show with all the SFX being accomplished ineffectively through croma-key, the method used in TV newscasts to put pictures behind the commentators. Trumbull left before production began, as did Ellison, who used his pen name as series creator and writer of episode one. Only Ursula K. LeGuin's storyline made it into production. The end product was a dismal reflection of the glories promised. After only 14 episodes, _T_h_e _S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t vanished into the void. Cast: Devon.............Keir Dullea Rachel..............Gay Rowen Garth..............Robin Ward Computer Host...William Osler Principle Credits: Exec. Producers...Douglas Trumbull Jerry Zeitman Producer..........William Davidson Creator............Cordwainer Bird Production Designer....Jack McAdam Technical Advisor.........Ben Bova Music............Score Productions Episodes (Paraphrased): "Voyage of Discovery": Pilot--the group escapes their dome and discovers the impending danger to the ship. They begin their quest for someone who still knows how to pilot the ship. "Lazarus from the Mist": The group finds technical crews in suspended animation, but are captured by mutated former security forces. "The Goddess Calabra": The group finds a Rome-like society, and Rachel is mistaked for the goddess of this all-male militaristic society. "The Pisces": The crew of the scoutship Pisces returns to the Ark 409 years after they left, but they cannot board the Ark, because the atmosphere ages them. "Children of Methuselah": A group of intelligent children live in the flight training center, and Devon tries to get them to repair the ship. "And Only Man is Vile": The group become involved in bizarre scientific experiments in a dome. "The Alien Oro": An alien has taken up residence in one of the domes since his ship crashed, and he tries to trick the group into helping him repair it. "Mr. Smith of Manchester": The group enter an heavily industrialized dome, whose ruler refuses to stop the pollutive machinery. "Circuit of death": Aware of the impending doom, electronics engineer Sakharov tries to activate the self-destruct of the Ark. "The Ancient Woods": The group seeks help for Devon's radiation sickness from the Astro Medics from a nearby Shuttle clinic. "People of the Dark": The group enters a dome where people live without any light or laws whatsoever. "Laboratory of Fear": The group wanders into the lair of an autonomous computer, who has absolute power over reality there. They hope he can re-create the captain. "The Return of Oro": Oro returns, planning to bring the Ark's people to safety on his planet. Devon discovers, however, that they could not survive there, and must convince Oro of that. "God that died": The group discovers a paradise in a dome, but a vaperous alien rules it. Notes of Interest: Ursula K. LeGuin wrote "The Goddess Calabra" Walter "Chekov" Koenig played Oro in both episodes. _T_h_e _S_t_a_r_l_o_s_t sounds very intersting, but doesn't seem to be frequently syndicated in the Tri-state area. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 May 85 1111-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #143 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 1 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 143 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 May 85 11:08:07 EDT From: Saul Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator Beginning with this issue I will be reprinted the chapters of The Enchanted Duplicator. Full Credits may be found at the beginning of the first chapter. I would like to thank Peter Trei (as well as the authors) for making this possible. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 01:41:17-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: THe Enchanted Duplicator THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR by Walt Willis & Bob Shaw Preface to the computer-readable edition. This computer-readable edition of THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR is copied from the 8th printed edition. Sadly, ASCII terminals cannot show Dan Steffan's excellent illustrations. A very few typos have been corrected; I have doubtless introduced more of my own. The only typographic peculiarity present is that words bracketed by asterisks like *this* should be regarded as underlined. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa 1 April 1985 Preface to the Eighth edition This is the eighth edition of The Enchanted Duplicator. Walt Willis and George Charters published the first edition, with illustrations by Bob Shaw, in 1954. Ted Johnstone and George Fields produced a version with Eddie Jones art in 1962. Arnie Katz and rich brown published the third edition, illustrated by C. Rose Chamberlain, in 1971. In 1972, The Enchanted Duplicator was serialized (as installments of "The Clubhouse," normally a fanzine-review column) in AMAZING SCIENCE FICTION. In 1979, the British worldcon, SeaCon '79, also produced an edition. In 1980, this fannish allegory was published in the 600-page WARHOON 28 as part of a Collected Works of Willis. And in 1981, Gary Farber did a 300-copy replica of the third edition. Obviously this is a durable work. Some of the allusions in The Enchanted Duplicator will be clearer if one knows a bit of fanhistory. For example, it is useful to know that Mari Wolff, during her stint as a fanzine reviewer in the prozine IMAGINATION, doled out egoboo with heedless abandon, or that many fans used Swift Printers in the early 1950s. Still, the spirit of the work is just as strong today as when it was first published, and a failure to understand a few random bits of esoterica won't lessen your enjoyment. --Jophan Credits for the Eighth Edition: The 1983 edition of THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw, and illustrated by Dan Steffan is jointly produced by Editions Dante and Constellation, the 1983 World Science Fiction Convention. *Credits*: Design and Layout: Dan Steffan; Typing: Lynn Steffan; Map: C. Ross Chamberlain; Vile Instigator: Gary Farber; Boss Ladies: Avedon Carol and Peggy Rae Pavlat; Inspiration: The Spirit of Fandom. This 1983 edition is dedicated to the memory of BOB PAVLAT, A Trufan. Chapter One In which the Spirit of Fandom appears to Jophan. Once upon a time in the village of Prosaic in the Country of Mundane there lived a youth called Jophan. Now this youth was unhappy, because in all the length and breadth of Mundane there was no other person with whom he could talk as he would like, or who shared the strange longings that from time to time perplexed his mind and which none of the pleasures offered by Mundane could wholly satisfy. Each day as Jophan grew nearer to manhood he felt more strongly that life should have more to offer than had been dreamed of in Mundane, and he took to reading strange books that told of faraway places and other times. But the People of Prosaic mocked him, saying that the things described in his books could never come to pass, and that it was as foolish to think of them as to aspire to climb the great mountains that surrounded the Country of Mundane. The mighty peaks that hemmed in Mundane were ever present in Jophan's thoughts, for since childhood he had loved to look at them and wonder what lay on their other side. At times in the late Summer he had even seemed to see a curious luminescence in the sky beyond them and once he had even fancied that he heard the sound of happy voices singing, borne over the vast distances on the still Summer breeze. But when he mentioned these things to the People of Prosaic they laughed at him and said his fanciful imagination was playing him tricks. Even if anyone could climb these impassable mountains, they told him, there could be nothing on the other side but howling wastes where no man could live except perhaps madmen and savages. Jophan believed them, for they seemed older and wiser than he, and tried to put the strange thoughts out of his mind. But he still read the strange books that told of faraway places and other times, and in the long evenings of Summer he would go away by himself into the fields and read until nightfall. Now one day while he was reading in a cornfield, the drowsy fragrance of the corn lulled him to sleep. In his sleep he dreamed that a fairy came to him, a girl of wondrous beauty and shining with a light brighter than the noonday sun, so that Jophan shrank away and hid his eyes. The fairy came nearer and spoke to him. "Have no fear," she said. "I am your friend." And now Jophan looked and saw that indeed the fairy gazed on him with kindness and love, and he took courage. "Who and what are you?" he asked. "I am the Spirit of Fandom," said the fairy serenely. "What is Fandom?" asked Jophan wonderingly. The fairy looked down on him with compassion. "Have you not been searching for it all your life?" she asked. "Watch!" So saying, she touched his forehead with her wand, which was called Contact, and thereupon Jophan saw a vision that filled him with Joy. "This is indeed what I have been searching for without knowing it," he cried. "Oh, Fairy, tell me how I can reach your realm, for I wish to become a Fan more than anything else in the world." "The Way is hard," said the Fairy, "for it lies over the Mountains of Inertia which surround Mundane." "But those mountains are unclimable," protested Jophan. "To a True Fan anything is possible," replied the Fairy. "But wait. I have shown you only the superficial aspects of Fandom. Now I will show you something of its inner essence." With those words she touched his forehead with her other wand, which as named Fanac, and Jophan saw a second vision so glorious that he was quite overcome by the wonder of it. As soon as he could speak he cried aloud, "Oh Spirit of Fandom, tell me how I may become a True Fan and publish the Perfect Fanzine, for that is what I desire more than anything in the world." "I see that I have chosen wisely," said the Fairy approvingly, "but the way to your heart's desire is long and hard. To reach it you must obtain the Enchanted Duplicator, sometimes known as the Magic Mimeograph. It lies in the very heart of Fandom, on the top of the High Tower of Trufandom, and the path to it is long and beset with many dangers." "I do not care for danger," said Jophan stoutly, "so long as I can publish the Perfect Fanzine, for that is what I want more than anything else in the world." "Very well," said the Fairy. "Then take this Shield, which is called Umor. If you polish it every day and keep it shining it will protect you from many dangers." "But how will I know the way?" cried Jophan hastily, for the Fairy was already beginning to disappear. "If you are a True Fan you will know the way...." said the Fairy faintly, for she had now almost completely faded into invisibility. For a moment a faint glow remained in the air from which seemed to come the whispered words "Good Luck," and then she was gone. Jophan woke from his dream and realized that night was almost upon him, for the sun was setting behind the Mountains of Inertia and their shadows were advancing swiftly on him across the level plains of Mundane. Behind the mountains there lingered a sea of glorious light, and a sadness overtook Jophan to think that his vision had been but a dream. But as he got to his feet he noticed that on the ground beside him there lay a shield of curious workmanship. Jophan picked it up incredulously and than turned his eyes once again to the mountains, his face transfigured with wonder and resolve. [ To be continued. ] ------------------------------ Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 01:41:49-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: ted 2 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan, inspired by the Spirit of Fandom, has decided to seek Trufandom.] Chapter Two In which Jophan starts on his Journey. That evening Jophan told his parents of his intention to scale the Mountains of Inertia and enter the Realm of Fandom. His mother pleaded with him in vain, and in a fit of rage his father burned all the books that told of faraway places and other times, but nothing could shake Jophan from his purpose. As dawn broke he set out for the mountains, carrying all his possessions on his back and turning a deaf ear to the protests of his friends, who ran behind him begging him to return. They soon fell far behind, and by noon Jophan arrived at the borders of Mundane. He found himself at the great arterial road that ran to the capital city. He was confused by the traffic that roared along the road, and stood anxiously looking for an opportunity to cross. As he waited he noticed other travellers boarding luxurious coaches bound for fabulous destinations such as Wealth, Success, Respectability and other places, but none of them seemed to be going in the direction of Fandom. During a momentary lull in the traffic Jophan marched steadfastly across the road. Then he took the narrow path that led through the Forest of Stupidity, which forest grows all around the Country of Mundane and shelters it from the searching winds that blow out of Fandom. The path was overgrown, and in several places Jophan had to cut his was through brush and thickets, but by mid-afternoon he had made his way to a beautiful clearing where he thought he would rest before continuing his journey. To his surprise he noticed that the clearing was laid out as an aerodrome, and that a beautiful silver flying-machine was even now landing. As he watched, the pilot and a passenger got out. The passenger seemed to fall to the ground and lie there motionless but the pilot came trotting over to Jophan. He was a fat, prosperous-looking man, and he eyed Jophan with calculating cordiality. Good afternoon, young man," he said genially. "My name is Swift. May I ask where you are bound for?" "My name is Jophan," said Jophan, "and I am on my way over the Mountains of Inertia to enter Fandom and produce the Perfect Fanzine, for that is what I want to do more than anything else in the world." "And so you shall!" said Swift, eyeing Jophan's bundle. "But, my dear young man, surely you are not thinking of *climbing* those mountains? Why, my beautiful machine will fly you over to Fandom in no time. And as for the Perfect Fanzine, my aeroplanograph will produce that for you too. No trouble at all. All you have to do is give me that bundle of yours." "The Fairy said that I must get the Enchanted Duplicator," said Jophan doubtfully. "That old thing?" jeered Swift. "Why, no one bothers with old- fashioned stuff like that these days. I've got some proofs for you." As he hurried past the aeroplanograph to his office, Jophan observed that the passenger was crawling painfully over the grass, calling feebly to Jophan. Jophan hurried over to him and could scarcely restrain his tears as he saw the stranger's pitiful condition. The wretch was pale and emaciated, his clothes in rags, and his hair prematurely white. Jophan bent down to hear what he was saying. "Don't trust him," whispered the passenger through his parched lips, "neither him nor his brothers, Offset and Litho. They will fly you over the Mountains of Inertia, as they claim, but you won't be able to land anywhere. You will fly around in circles for months looking down on Fandom until all your money is gone and you die of starvation like me. Be warned before it is too late. There is no easy way..." His voice trailed off into inaudibility, and Jophan realized that he was dead. Solemnly he consigned his soul to Heaven and prayed that the great BNF above would have pity on him. Then he ran across the aerodrome and resumed his journey through the forest. Soon the trees began to thin out and the ground to rise, and Jophan knew he had arrived at the foothills of the Mountains of Inertia. As he paused to strap his bundle more tightly about him he was startled to hear what seemed to be a train whistle nearby. He went forward curiously and soon found himself facing a large and imposing notice. In clear and elegant letters it said: TO THE TUNNEL. LETTERPRESS RAILROAD. MUNDANE TO TRUFANDOM TOWER DIRECT VIA TUNNEL. Beyond it Jophan saw a dark tunnel leading into the mountain, and before it a resplendent locomotive and a single tiny carriage behind it. Had it not been for his encounter with the Passenger, Jophan would have bought a ticket and boarded the train, but instead he stayed where he was and watched the locomotive as it started off. With a deafening blow on its whistle and an impressive clanking of gears it steamed forward towards the inky blackness of the tunnel, but it had barely reached the entrance before it shuddered to a stop. To his astonishment, Jophan saw the driver, fireman and passengers get off and run to the back of the train. With immense labor they lifted the last section of the track and staggered with it into the tunnel. After some minutes they reappeared and boarded the train again. The train moved another few yards into the tunnel, and the process was repeated. Jophan watched them until they finally disappeared into the tunnel, marvelling at their obstinacy and patience. It may be, he thought, a wonderful railroad, but if they have to set every one of the lines by hand it will be years before they even reach Fandom, let alone Trufandom. He listened for a while to the groanings and clankings still coming from the tunnel and then set off on the steep path up the mountain. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 May 85 1236-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #144 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 3 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 144 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (3 msgs) & Bradbury & Pohl (2 msgs), Films - Wizards & Star Trek IV & Lucasfilms, Music - The Dead and SF, Miscellaneous - Cobalt-60 (2 msgs) & Language & British Names ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 9:34:48 EDT From: Morris M. Keesan Subject: Re: Ref. Computers in SF To: rturner@usadhq2.arpa The story asked about in SFL V10 #140 which is "vignettes . . . starting with the computer era and ending . . . after the universe had run down," when "All that was left . . . was a computer," is of course the classic short story by Asimov, "The Last Question". --Morris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 08:46 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: To: Richard Turner - Computers in SF We are back to _The Last Question_ by Issac Asimov. A great short story. The universe runs down to just the Cosmic AC which is still munching on it's last asked question, "How do we reverse entropy?" It figures it out. Are we surprised? It is a classic of the short story variety. Almost as good as the short short where they power up the world's largest computer and ask it, "Is there a God?" It responds with, "There is now!" as a lightning bolt fuses the off switch. Great stuff. -- Jon Pugh -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 17:56 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: Ref. Computers in SF (story request) To: "Richard G. Turner, PERI-ET, USARI" "The Last Question", by Isaac Asimov, I think. The computer at the end was the Universal(?) AC, and it existed in hyperspace (or else it had gone before that and a previous model existed in hyperspace), and at this point mankind has evolved into one, pure energy, mind, which merges with the AC just befor the last scene. I think Asimov thinks this is his best short story (or at least at one time did). This brings to mind something that occured to me while reading _Robots_of_Dawn_. It seems to me that in several of Asimov's story's, he essentially creates God (or /a/ god, anyway), "The Last Question" being the most obvious example. Others include some of the robot stories, eg "The Evitable Conflict" and _The_Robots_Of_ Dawn_, wherein robots play the "god" role. The ending of _Foundations_Edge_ also seems to have that feel to it, but its been so long since I read it I'm not sure. What does the net think? Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: "There Will Come Soft Rains" Date: 30 Apr 85 01:09:35 GMT > From: William LeFebvre > The Bradbury story "There Will Come Soft Rains" is indeed about an > automated house that continued to operate after a nuclear > holocaust. It IS one of the stories in the "The Martian > Chronicles". It is also the only one that I remember the title > for---the story had a very profound impact on me. Thanks for all the answers to my original question about the automated house. A bit of nostalgia hit, and, well, I just had to know... One odd side note, I read it in it's short-story form as a class assignment in (of all places) Catholic church-school many many many years ago. (Funny, I never did see that particular priest after that) Gary ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!carlj@topaz.arpa (carlj) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 20 Apr 85 02:31:00 GMT I think you are right about Sigfried not being included, although I missed that when I first read it. Your point about spotting the Heechee ship was not valid. Albert sent out the ship to watch the light ship which had a known position, direction, and speed. When the ship didn't spot the light ship at the indicated position, it stepped back to watch the light ship from a known sighting and watched it until the rendezvous with the Heechee ships. Carl Johnson hp-pcd!carlj ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 30 Apr 85 16:25:37 GMT Your discussion of these works (Gateway, etc) reminds me that Gateway: The Play was performed at Minicon this year, and I, for one, was very impressed. If anyone is going to be at Keycon (Winipeg, May 17 & 18), it will be performed there, and I recommend seeing it whether you are familiar with the books or not. The author of the play is a Minneapolis Theatre Major named Phil Therou, and the acting is surprisingly good. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: WIZARDS Date: 29 Apr 85 14:30:34 GMT tallman@dspo.UUCP writes: >One thing that bothered me about WIZARDS was that the first few >minutes of the film were not animated. Instead, the camera pans >over some uncolored, unfinished sketches. It seemed that Bakshi >had gotten tired of drawing or had a low animation budget. Perhaps >it was meant to indicate the dim past as a background to the main >story, but I still did not like it. Uhh... you're kidding, right? This is a belated AprilFool posting? Those "uncolored, unfinished sketches" were rather nice conte' or pastel drawings, done on a gray textured paper. They're *supposed* to look like that, honest! (I also think they were the best looking part of the picture -- the rotoscoped WWI flicks really put me off.) Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 30 Apr 85 07:52 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Star Trek IV Plot Reproduced without permission from the Los Angeles Times Calendar section of Sunday April 28. (deleted) Looks interesting!! >>Dave ------------------------------ From: orca!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine) Subject: Re: Next Star Wars Movie Date: 29 Apr 85 18:14:57 GMT Here's the latest inside info on Lucasfilm's current activities: o Lucasfilm is doing a ride or rides for Disneyland/world. This is the first time Disney has let anybody else do anything at their theme parks. o There is some sort of collaboration afoot between Lucas and Henson Associates (the Muppet folks). More details exist, but I don't have them at the moment. (There may be info on this in the Star Wars Fan Club bulletin). o The current project at Lucasfilm is a new Ewok special. "This time," promises Maureen Garrett of the Star Wars Fan Club, "we'll have a real plot!" o ILM is keeping busy with the special effects of virtually every Hollywood project with any money to spend. I've heard rumors of a film of "Bug Jack Barron," but the chances of that seem slim. Right now ILM is building Ewoks. o Lucasfilm's Computer Division is becoming a separate company. Apparently, they were spending too much money (the short "Andre & Wally B." cost about $22 million!). They are about to release/have recently eleased two games for Atari computers (the old ones, not the ST): "Ballblazer" and "Rescue on Fractalus," both of which are NEAT. Other games are in the works. That's all I have. These rumors are straight from the horse's mouth, but they're still just rumors. David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!orca!davidl) [UUCP] (orca!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 8:51:19 EDT From: "James B. Hofmann" (RAMD) Subject: The Dead and SF Two recent messages on SF-LOVERS inspired me to write with the news that the Dead will continue to be associated with Science Fiction. Seems they have been hired to write the music for the upcoming Twilight Zone series. This includes music for separate segments as well as the theme music. The Dead have been weaving Science Fiction themes into their 'Space' sequence in the last few years. I personally have heard traces of 'Close Encounters' as well as the original Twilight Zone theme. Also their head guru, Mr. Jerry Garcia provided the sound effects for the baby robot in 'Heartbleeps(?)', definitely the high point of the whole movie. I would appreciate hearing any other comments on the relation of the Dead with SF or for that matter any rock groups' connection with SF. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 1985 15:48 PST From: Greg Goodknight Subject: Cobalt-60 Thanx and a hat tip to Mark Purtill and Chuq Von Rospach for fleshing out the Bode-Bakshi connection. My entire flame was based on the similarity of the two characters being too much for just chance. It is comforting to know I'll have co-defendants if Bakshi "is that stupid". I dug through some old boxes at home last night, looking for any remnants of my old comic books. Eureka! Amongst the Zap, Freak Brothers, Mr.Natural and Slow Death comics were the following treasures: 1) Junkwaffel #1,2 and 4 2) The Man 3) The Collected Cheech Wizard All marked "copyright 197X by Vaughn Bode. All rights reserved", and "For Adults Only" (good reasons for it, too). Published by The Print Mint, Berzerkly, California. Cobalt-60 makes his debut in Junkwaffel #2 (copyright 1972). When did Bakshi start on "WIZARDS" ? I think I saw it on a first run in 1976. From chuqui@topaz: >Mark (being assisted by Larry Todd, I believe) is doing a good job, >but he isn't his father, and it shows. Vaughn didn't get very far >on Cobalt-60 while he was alive because he found it just too >depressing. Reading Mark's work, based on what his father did do, >notes, and his own ideas, shows why. Junkwaffel #1, by the way, "is dedicated to Larry Todd and my son, Mark", and the watercolor on the back cover is signed "TODD/BODE". Also of interest in that issue is a robot war machine carrying a nameplate saying "PEACE" (another NECRON-90 'similarity'). I'll have to hunt up the EPIC series to compare the old and new Cobalts, but here is a passage from Junkwaffel #4 (copyright 1972): "The woman was crying, a priest was saying comforting words.... Cobalt wasn't listening. 'She's a seed!' his mind screamed, 'a fertile woman, maybe the last human capable of carrying a child!' ... His knees trembled, 'A seed' .....Cobalt's mind reels, his hands shake like an old man's 'A seed!'. He felt destruction, facinated, hung between escape and hatred that bordered insane pleasure. 'I must kill that woman' he screams in silence, 'Do it, do it, DO IT!' " The rest of it is VERY depressing. While the first Cobalts were the normal frame-by-frame strip, the story above was almost all text bordering a few charcoal and pencil drawings. Easier to write than to draw that kind of action. Greg Goodknight just Another Computer Company in Santa Barbara ------------------------------ From: faron!wdr@topaz.arpa (William D. Ricker) Subject: Re: WIZARDS and Vaughn Bode Date: 1 May 85 17:11:51 GMT Mark Purtill writes: > Anyway, M. Bode and *A* were to collaborate on a new >series of Cobalt-60 strips, which I THINK is/was to be/will be >appear in EPIC magazine. (If anyone has seen them, perhaps we >could get a review for the net.) *A* said that he hoped Bakshi sued >THEM for copywrite infringement, because then they could >counter-sue, but that he didn't think Bakshi was that stupid. >Other than that hope, apparently they have no legal recourse. Cobalt-60 has appeared in EPIC, a couple of times in the last year, I think. I recognized Necron-90 alright, and assumed Bakshi was being ripped off. Thanks for showing the other side of it. (I'm not going to assume anything's proven either way, unless Bakshi does sue.) The strips are amusing. If you liked Wizards, you may well like Cobalt-60. It's got a better surprise ending than Wizards. Though I still like the film. William Ricker wdr@faron.UUCP (UUCP) decvax!genrad!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP) {allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 11:07:01-PDT From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: V10 #138--Suzette Haden Elgin Ms. Elgin is indeed a linguist; one of the first textbooks I had in the field was co-authored by her. However, the idea of world-view being affected by language is NOT an out-growth of Chomsky's linguistics, nor of French (derived from American) Structuralism. It was posited during the 20's by one Benjamin Lee Whorf, one of the finest anthropological linguists of the century; it was expanded upon by Edward Sapir, one of the two great pre-structuralist American linguists. The idea is known as the Whorf or Whorf-Sapir hypothesis, and forms the basis for Jack Vance's novel _The Languages of Pao_. Rich Alderson@Score "Linguistics was my business..." ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: More on the name of Piers Anthony Date: 30 Apr 85 19:11:30 GMT More on the name of Piers Anthony: The following quote is from THE MALLING OF AMERICA, a rather good book on the development of the shopping mall, by William Severini Kowinski, pp 219-20: "Piers Anthony Weymouth, the sixth Lord Wedgwood, appeared at South Coast Plaza [Orange County, CA] as part of a United States tour promoting Wedgwood bone china. There, in the mall court, for the first time anywhere, he demonstrated the strength of his china by balancing a one-and-a-half-ton Silver Spirit Rolls-Royce on Wedgwood demitasse cups, one under each tire." OK, this has naught to do with SF, but notice the name at the quote's beginning. It now must be determined whether: a) "Piers Anthony" is a very common British name combination, and many people, of all walks of life, have those names, or, b) "Piers Anthony" is a family name for the noble family that includes Lord Wedgwood, and the writer we know as "Piers Anthony" (P. A. D. Jacob) is one of that family (black sheep or otherwise...), or, c) The parents of P. A. D. Jacob named him "Piers Anthony" after the above Lord Wedgwood or some other person bearing those names, for some reason or another. Now is the time for a British reader of this digest or newsgroup to do a little local investigation... Regards, Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 May 85 1305-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #145 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 3 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 145 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art, Books - Bishop & Brust & Ford & Hogan & Palmer & Zelazny, Television - Animated Star Trek Miscellaneous - Stolen Art Announcement ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Art in True Names Date: 26 Apr 85 14:04:43 GMT > First of all, you must recognize that very few sf artists > have as much control over their work as you seem to think, Mark. > Art directors often tell artists precisely which scenes they want > illustrated, from what perspective, and so on. When such limits > are placed on an artist, they can prevent some of his or her > talent from showing through. > --Dave Axler This is correct. Furthermore (I know I'm getting off the subject), it is often the the marketing people who decide on the artist, as in "This guy should have a Whalen or Rwena cover," or "keep the same artist he's had before since his other books are selling so well." The result can be that a scene is selected that doesn't fit the book and an artist is selected who can't do that sort of scene well. If you think I'm taking this personally, I am. The cover of the paperback of To Reign In Hell sucks the big one, despite excellent covers, by the same artist, of JHEREG and YENDI. For examples of GOOD cover art, there is: THE BLUE HAWK, by Peter Dickinson, and the two books by John DeChancie (which are excellent books, by the way). -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 85 03:39:33 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Michael Bishop's collection ONE WINTER IN EDEN Michael Bishop is a subtle writer with a talent for believable characters and well-wrought prose, and his latest collection, ONE WINTER IN EDEN (Arkham House, 1984, 273pp), thoroughly demonstrates these virtues. Most of the stories in this collection are admirably solid writing, and even the few less interesting ones still show much more care than the average sf or fantasy tale. The title story is about a schoolteacher in rural Georgia who has a peculiar obsession with dragons -- I daresay that no one but Bishop could make it fly... Dragons are a symbol for greed and violence in western culture, but Bishop turns this notion on its head in a very touching way. 'Seasons of Belief' is a little chiller that asks us to reflect on the credibility of the bedtime stories parents sometimes tell their children. 'Cold War Orphans' is a superb story that takes place at a CIA spy plane base in Turkey during the Cold War, telling the tale of a man who defects -- not to the Russians but to something else, somewhere else... 'The Yukio Mishima Cultural Association of Kudzu Valley, Georgia' is a violently original piece about a peculiar institution which bears no relation to the other organization with the same initials. I can't say very much about 'Collaborating' without giving it away, except that it has to be one of the funniest and (again) most original stories I've ever seen, and if you can guess what it's about from the title you'll enjoy it even more when you read it. 'Within the Walls of Tyre' is a remarkably nasty horror story with a remarkably realistic feel to it. 'Saving Face' brings science fiction to rural Georgia, when the law gets involved in the question of whether Tom Rakestraw has the looks of a movie star. 'The Quickening' won the Nebula award for best novelette of 1981, and it is a disturbing little fable about human society. This really has to be one of the best single-author collections I've ever bought... The production and design by Arkham House are immaculate, just as they were for Bishop's excellent novel WHO MADE STEVIE CRYE?. If you like literate sf and fantasy, I strongly recommend this book... Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Steven Brust Date: 1 May 85 04:02:33 GMT It's fun to trace influences on writers. It's a game to which hundreds of trees and English students have fallen, chopped down and lulled to sleep, respectively. But sometimes the influences are obvious, and even (occasionally) self-proclaimed. So it's clear that Brunner has been effected by Dos Passos, Haldeman by Hemingway (and Dos Passos, come to think of it), and (Spider) Robinson by Heinlein. So has Steven Karl Zoltan Brust been influenced by Zelazny. The signs are all there: The wise-ass, almost contemporary character surrounded by scenes and beings of myth and legend. The complex, constantly changing relationships and forces. The beautiful prose, invisible in its strength, except when it jumps out and startles you with its beauty. The unexpected, sometimes startling humor. The not-quite-as-flat-as-you-first-thought characters, protagonists, villains, and spear carriers alike. I *like* Zelazny. So does Brust. Brust doesn't write as well as Zelazny. Well, that's okay; no one writes just like Zelazny, except better. A few write differently, and also very well, and some more write pretty well. Brust writes pretty well. I'm telling you all this because, largely on the strength of reviews of TO REIGN IN HELL, I went out and bought the collected works of Steven Brust, and I just wanted to keep all the common comments together. As to the books themselves, keep reading. . . . -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: THE DRAGON WAITING Date: 26 Apr 85 13:26:56 GMT > Ford is a *very* precise, able, and efficient writer, one of the > best wordsmiths I've ever read. He tends to write just enough to > create the effect he's after -- and no more. He also tends to > give the readers just enough information to figure out what's > going on and why -- and no more. This kind of precision in > writing is very difficult to pull off because if the writer > miscalculates, he can leave the reader very confused. On the > other hand, if he does things just right, he can leave the reader > with an amazing sense of completion when the focal idea of the > entire novel makes itself clearer and clearer as the last few > chapter slowly unfold. In THE DRAGON WAITING, Ford does it just > right. > > Ray Chen I completely agree with you on all points. The thing about Ford is that, in most cases, one must read him twice to fully understand what is going on. Usually, I'm tempted to call this a weakness. In the case of writers like Ford and Gene Wolfe, its okay, because there is so much in the book to enjoy even when the plot isn't fully clear, and because rereading them is such a pleasure. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 85 12:17 pdt From: "pugh jon%c.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: More on Hogan and SF in general... Pardon my flame, but I seem to be observing a lot of nitpicking over details in a variety of books in this column. In specific, I refer to the discussion of James Hogan's books over the past few days. We are dealing with science FICTION, aren't we? Things that are not, and, in many cases, cannot be, are par for the course. People seem to argue about whether or not a theory is too complex or logically consistant. One must recognize that there is little or no chance of a science fiction writer coming up with a Nobel prize winning theory of time travel. It just isn't bloody likely. Granted, science fiction has made some dynamite predictions, with waldos and satellites being among the most noteworthy. There was even that fellow who got nabbed by the G-men for describing THE bomb too accurately, but he invented nothing. He only used ideas that had been worked out and organized them into an end result, same as the fellows working on the project. So, what does it matter if Hogan gets a bit caught up in his theory of time travel? He is doing what he enjoys, which is making increadible ideas sound plausible. If the reader has to sit there and disbelive, then it makes me wonder why the person is reading fiction. After all, isn't this supposed to be fun? Personally, I enjoy reading about things that do not or cannot exist, and time travel is one of them. I loved Larry Niven's time travel stories, but he avoided the entire science issue by making them fantasy. Is that better than making up some wild theory? Not if you enjoy making wild theories. As for politics, I suspect we all realize that there is NO simple solution to our complex world. Making a solution to that is even harder to pull off than time travel. Mr. Hogan has fun with it. Wouldn't you be willing, given a genesis machine (Love that wave theory of matter!), to try and save this planet from the fanatic little loonies that overrun it's surface? I would. Unfortunately, there is no super-being that has morals harder than adamantium, no genesis machine, and no time travel. So does it matter that Hogan has a simplistic view of politics? His emphasis was that science can be used for good, given the motivation behind it is good. His hero didn't kill anyone, and everyone lived happily ever after. And we recognize that it is fiction, after all. Stories don't end with real people, and they are continuous, not discrete. All of these features make science fiction hard pressed to mimic reality, and I feel that it doesn't need to. I also agree with comments that Mr. Hogan's characterizations need work. Some of them come out very flat, like the lady in _Thrice Upon a Time_, whatever her name was. She served no real purpose aside from proving that love is thicker than time. And once again, that you can live happily ever after. In summary, I oppose all criticisms of SF theories, unless you are willing to prove how it really is. Plot, character, and theme (read moral) are more what we are capable of critiquing. I acknowledge that there are limits to what a writer can get away with in regards to science nowadays. A writer must either be up on science enough to make it sound plausible, or declare that his story operates on a different set of rules, or "givens". Several of the more popular scientific "givens" are time travel, matter teleportation, thrusters, and ftl drives. But isn't it still fun to read _A Martian Odyssey_ despite the fact that we now know how wrong that image of Mars is? "Nothing exist except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion." -- Jon Pugh -- ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Emergence: novel, David R. Palmer, 1984 (Hugo nominee) Date: 1 May 85 03:59:55 GMT Candidia Maria Smith-Foster has just survived World War III. She's a good survivor. She is a extremely bright person, and extraordinarily healthy. She's a Fifth Degree Master of Karate. She's the sole occupant of a well stocked, well defended shelter. Candy Foster is ten years old. . . . The best way I can say this is bluntly: the beginning is terrific. The second part becomes a more-interesting-than-most travelogue. Somewhere in that second part, Palmer starts exhibiting the traits of Heinlein at his worst. Mind you, Heinlein (or Palmer, for that matter) at his best is pretty damn good. Heinlein at his worst is pretty bad. So is Palmer at Heinlein's worst. The "Competent Man" syndrome starts nagging at the reader's disbelief, along with the unlikely twists and turns the plot follows. (The straw that breaks the verisimilitude's back, though, is . . . is . . . ah, hell's bells, is too much of a spoiler to tell. Don't worry, you'll recognize it when you see it.) A typical 1980s SF novel: terrific beginning, unsatisfactory ending. By the way, some people have complained about the novel's style, which is to conversational English what Pitman shorthand is to longhand. I liked it, but then, I'm weird. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Unicorn Variations: collection, Roger Zelazny, 1983 Date: 1 May 85 04:14:55 GMT SF has some good novelists. It also has some good short story writers. Zelazny falls into the first category, and also the second. The title story is very good (and won a Hugo). You can say the same for "Home is the Hangman", which takes up a quarter of the book. Some of the other stories are only good, except for the stories which are essays (or a foreword or afterword), which are also good. The stories that are only fair, Zelazny has collected in a corner of his desk, or his trash can. They aren't here. If I need to spell out to you that there isn't a single bad story in the bunch, and that I recommend the book, you may not be observant enough to enjoy it. Pity. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Animated StarTreks Date: 1 May 85 17:11:45 GMT Hi there --- I'm interested in a little item that I have been half-heartedly searching for on and off for a few years: videotape versions of the Star Trek ANIMATED episodes that were aired on NBC saturday mornings in 1976. (The network cancelled them not because of low ratings, but because the "subject matter was not suitable for the younger viewing audience"...or somesuch thing like that... pretty weird anyway because Roddenbery tried getting it on Prime Time, and they said that the subject matter was not suitable for the older viewing audience...ah, life in America... but I degress....) At any rate, I would appreciate ANY leads as to where I can purchase copies of these episodes, unless they are un-purchasable! Many thanks... --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: ccw@mtfmt.ARPA Subject: Stolen art announcement for posting Date: 3 May 85 06:21:43 GMT Recently a Science Fiction artist by the name of Tom Kidd had an exibition at Columbia University. This past week thirteen paintings were stolen from the exibit. Many were book covers and should be identifiable. Here is a list of titles of the paintings. In most cases they are they are the same as the book, and I am listing the authors of the books. If you see any of the original paintings please drop me a line (mtfmt!ccw) and send a copy to Lance Larsen (ihnp4!lznv!lfl - mail to mtfmt is flakey) or better yet the artist at: Tom Kidd 19 Broadway Terrace #2D NY, NY 10040 Phone (212)569-1421 1) Oath of the Renunciate (cover of a Marion Zimmer Bradley Book) 2) Mallworld cover illistration Somtoco Suchathal 3) Silent Invaders Robert Silverberg 4) Lord of the Skies (I think this was an AMAZING SF cover) 5) Shadows out of Hell Andrew Offutt 6) One Step From Earth Harry Harrison 7) The Years Best SF (1984?) Gardner Dozois 8) Trojan Orbit Mack Renyolds (Joshua's Tomb) 9) The Imperiator Plot Steven Spruill (sleepwalkers world) 10) Dialogue with Darkness Poul Anderson 11) Firewatch Connie Willis 12) The Frozen Wave Robert Vardeman 13) Meanwhile (?) Everyone concerned would appreciate the publicizing of this list. These paintings represent over six months of his life. Thanks in advance, Chris Ward ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 May 85 1322-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #146 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 3 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 146 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 29 Apr 85 01:42:14-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: ted3 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is seeking a route through the Mountains of Inertia on his way to Fandom.] Chapter Three In which Jophan tarries in the Circle of Lassitude. The path was steep, and by nightfall Jophan was near exhaustion. Worse, he had entered a region of thick fog, and he could no longer see the path in front of him. Afraid lest he would take a false step and fall down the precipitous slope, Jophan stopped helplessly and resolved to wait until the fog cleared. But as the sound of his own breathing subsided he heard voices above him. He felt his way inch by inch along the path and suddenly found himself at the entrance to a brilliantly lit, circular cave. It was full of people of all ages talking and laughing and playing games. As soon as they noticed his presence they hospitably invited him in, gave him something to drink, and then went on with their talking and playing. After a while one of the youths finished his game and came over to him. "Where are you bound for?" he asked politely. "I am going to Fandom to publish the Perfect Fanzine," said Jophan, "For that is what I want to do more than anything else in the world." "But *this* is Fandom!" exclaimed the youth indignantly. "Well, not exactly," said an older man who overheard, "but it's good enough for us. Actually this is only the Circle of Lassitude. We've heard of Fandom, of course, but it's such a lot of trouble getting over those mountains that we don't know much about it. We have all we want here, you see, so we're quite happy. If you want to know something about it, though, I could introduce you to those three old men in the corner. They lived in Fandom for a time long ago, until they came back for a visit to the capital of Mundane. They were never able to tear themselves completely away or to face another journey over the mountains. It's easier to come back, you know. By the way, my name is Leth, Robert George Leth. They call me Leth R. G. for short." The Circle was so pleasant and hospitable that Jophan decided to spend the night in the cave. But they had so plied him with drink that he slept most of the following day until it seemed too late to start. The same thing happened the next day, and the next, and by degrees Jophan sank into a stupor, in which he forgot the object of his quest. Now and then he felt dimly that he had lost some precious thing but whenever he tried to recall what it was one of the Circle would press a drink into his hand and distract his attention with the latest verses of the wits of Mundane. One day while Jophan was talking with the others a great wind blew from Fandom and a sheet of paper whirled into the cave. Jophan picked it up and examined it curiously. Its appearance stirred half-forgotten memories of the dazzling vision he had had from the touch of the wand called Fanac. "Why," he gasped, "It's . . . It's a Fanzine!" "So it is," said Leth R. G., idly. "They blow in from Fandom occasionally. We never pay much attention." Without another word Jophan shouldered his bundle and marched out of the cave. The others watched him in silence, and after he was gone it was a long time before anyone spoke. Then they renewed their talking and playing twice as loudly as before, as if trying to convince themselves that they were happy. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue 30 Apr 85 01:31:44-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: ted 4 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is seeking the way to Fandom.] Chapter Four In which Jophan meets a Traveller from Fandom. Jophan had been weakened both in mind and body by the drinks he had imbibed in the cave, and he found the going very difficult. The path became steeper and steeper, and one by one he had to abandon all the possessions he had brought with him. Even so, by evening he was so tired that he had to rest on a ledge to regain his strength. Below him he could see the path winding down into the Region of Fog, strewn with his cherished possessions. Further down the green Forest of Stupidity was spread below him, and beyond that the peaceful country of Mundane basking in the light of the setting sun. Shivering with cold as he was, for the Mountains of Inertia screened the sunlight from him, Jophan found the prospect enticing and it came to him how easy it would be to retrace his steps down the path, gather up his possessions, and return to the placid life of Mundane. While he was musing thus he heard a terrible sound above his head, and cowered into the shelter of the ledge just in time to escape a deadly landslide of rocks and loose stones. Behind them down the path there slithered and stumbled the highest horse Jophan had ever seen, and on his back an angry little man, pulling at the reins and swearing continually. Every now and then the horse dislodged another stone which clattered down the mountainside, awakening a fresh landslide. "Pardon me," said Jophan, "but you really should be more careful. You might injure some of the other pilgrims on the path." "Serve them right," snarled the little man, without dismounting from his high horse. "My name is Disillusion -- *the* Disillusion, y'know. Who are you?" "My name is Jophan," said Jophan, "and I am on my way to Fandom to produce the Perfect Fanzine, for that is what I want to do more than anything else in the world." "More fool you," sneered the other. "Only a fool would want to enter that place." "Why, what's wrong with it?" asked Jophan. "What's wrong with it?" repeated Disillusion incredulously. "Why *everything's* wrong with it! They're either stupid or mad, every one of them. Why, they didn't even come out to greet me when I arrived -- *me*, mind you! At first they even pretended not to see me until I got down off my horse, and when they did speak to me I couldn't understand a word they were saying. And their customs! I've never seen anything like them!" "Well, after all," said Jophan, "it's a different country. Maybe if you had tried to learn the language . . ." "Nonsense!" snapped Disillusion. "They were just trying to keep things from me and laughing behind my back. Well, they can have their secrets. I don't want to have anything to do with them. They were all against me, I tell you. Imagine, not even thanking me for entering Fandom after all I tried to teach them . . ." Speechless with indignation, he spurred the horse on again and vanished down the path. Jophan thought he was the most conceited and self-centered person he had ever met, but nevertheless the encounter refreshed him. It seemed to him that the dislike of such a person was a very good recommendation for Fandom. With this new vigor he set off again on his journey and by nightfall he had reached a point from which he thought he should be able to reach the summit tomorrow. Happy in the prospect of seeing Fandom so soon, he curled up in a little cave and went to sleep. [To be continued] ------------------------------ Date: Tue 30 Apr 85 01:32:06-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: ted 5 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is seeking the way to Trufandom.] Chapter Five In which Jophan enters Fandom. Next morning Jophan arose with the first rays of the sun and set off towards the now beckoning summit in good heart. He was overjoyed to see that there were no more gloomy people like Disillusion coming galloping by. They are really very rare in Fandom, he reflected, and the thought put him in such good humor that he redoubled his efforts to reach the top. Thus far in his travels, Jophan had been journeying alone, but now he began to overtake others on the same path. It pleased him greatly to hear their fannish talk, and by the time he had achieved the peak he had befriended several. The closest of these newfound friends were Mr. Plodder and Mr. Erratic. The former was a slow-moving climber, who went straight at every obstacle with grim determination, sometimes losing ground but in the end winning through by the great quantity of his effort. He had no Shield of Umor, as most of the other travellers had, but Jophan noticed that his skin was tremendously thick and it looked as though even the fiercest blows would but glance off it. On the other hand, Mr. Erratic scorned to take great pains as Mr. Plodder was forced to do. His method of progress was to wait for an opportunity to make some great and brilliant leap which enabled him to do in one second that which had taken the other a full minute. At times Jophan was greatly impressed by some unusually clever bit of work by Mr. Erratic, but he noticed that the other seemed to have very little real strength and would rest for so long between leaps that Jophan left him far behind. In a short time, Jophan reached the top and felt compensated many times over for the arduous climb. A smooth green slope ran gently downwards into the most beautiful country Jophan had ever seen -- Fandom. It was a land of streams and meadows and valleys, over and between which ran meandering roads, dotted here and there with cheerful cottages. Beyond all this, in the mists of distance, he saw yet another peak which was too far away to be clearly seen. Jophan saw with wonderment that it seemed to have a golden radiance about its summit. With glad cries the band of travellers in which Jophan had found himself ran down the grassy slope. Each and every Neofan felt in his heart that he would soon reach the new peak which was called the Tower of Trufandom, for here they had no Mountains of Inertia to climb, and just the bright inviting land of Fandom to cross. After a moments hesitation Jophan ran after them, and so brightly did the sun shine on Fandom that he and the other Neofen (as they now were) were blinded by the light and quite failed to notice the hazards, of which in Fandom there are many. As Jophan ran he was astonished and horrified to hear the eager cries of those in front turn into screams of rage and consternation. On shielding his eyes from the sun he perceived that some distance ahead the verdant ground had become soft and treacherous underfoot, in the manner of quicksand. And to his dismay he saw that many unfortunate wretches had broken through the surface and were being sucked down, drawing down with them others who had sprung to their aid. When Jophan saw the horrible purple stains that spread from underneath to clog the victims' mouths and nostrils he realized that they had blundered into the dreaded Hekto Swamp, and that there was no help for them. With a last pitying look he bore to the right onto ground which had at first seemed uninviting because of its slightly stony appearance, but which bore up underfoot, unlike the seductive smoothness of the Hekto Swamp. [To be continued] ------------------------------ Date: Tue 30 Apr 85 01:32:34-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: ted 6 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is seeking the way to Trufandom.] Chapter Six In which Jophan ventures into the Jungle of Inexperience. Jophan soon found that the firmness of the ground was due to the presence of mighty trees whose roots spread through the soil, making it a secure if difficult surface to walk on. He learned that these great trees had flourished in Fandom since time immemorial, and were called Abydix, Roneoaks and Ellam trees. There was also another lengthy name beginning with "G" which he was unable to remember. Jophan had travelled but a short time over this difficult but promising path when to his alarm he found himself confronted with a dense jungle. This, the Jungle of Inexperience, had not been visible from the mountains, but apparently it stretched all round Fandom and there was no alternative but to try to find a way through it. Jophan plunged bravely into the undergrowth, but the numerous pitfalls and creepers so impeded his progress that he was eventually brought to a standstill. As he paused to regain his strength, he was startled to hear a heart-rending scream close by. He forced his way through a dense thicket and found himself on the brink of a mighty torrent which roared through the jungle in the direction of the Hekto Swamp. The waters that leaped and churned along its course were as black as ink, and Jophan realized that this was the notorious Torrent of Overinking. He was horrified to see that some yards downstream a Neofan, doubtless the one who had screamed, was being borne away by the flood. The unfortunate Neofan's cries of help wrenched Jophan's heart, and he ran quickly as he could along the bank in an effort to reach him. It was plain, however, that the waters were too swift-moving, and he soon fell behind. The calamities that Jophan had seen overtake his fellow-travellers began to weigh heavily upon his spirit. He was, therefore, pleasantly surprised to see on rounding a bend that a number of people were gathered on the bank and had just succeeded in rescuing the Neofan from the clutches of the torrent. On coming closer he saw that there was a huge pile of sheets close to the edge and that the rescuers had knotted these together and lowered them to the drowning Neofan. He discovered later that the sheets which had been used to rescue the Neofan from the Torrent of Overinking were known as Slip Sheets. Jophan joined the group and they all set off down the bank, having agreed that it would be better to avoid the Torrent of Overinking altogether rather then depend on Slip Sheets to rescue them. Further along, however, they were overjoyed to discover a bridge across the torrent. Laughing happily they crossed the bridge which bore an inscription proclaiming it to be the Bridge of Moderation, and set foot on the other side in the confident hope that their troubles were now at an end. However, it seemed that they were not yet out of the jungle. Indeed, as they progressed, the path became more and more difficult to follow, as it wound its way among the overhanging vines and creepers, all of a sickly light green aspect which reflected itself in the wan faces of the travellers. This unnatural pallor was caused by the fact that it was very rarely indeed that a cheering ray of sunshine ever penetrated the converging vegetation. It was in these unpleasant surroundings that darkness finally forced the band of Neofen to pitch camp for the night. [To be continued] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 May 85 1349-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #147 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 4 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 147 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (3 msgs) & Heinlein & Kim Stanley Robinson (2 msgs), Films - Criticizing Films & Buckaroo Banzai & Mad Max & Zelazny, Television - Starlost, Miscellaneous - Language ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Jhereg: novel, Steven Brust, 1983 Date: 1 May 85 04:06:44 GMT Vladamir Taltos is an "Easterner", a member of a race that usually isn't more than six feet tall. (You may be familiar with this race.) He lives in the city of Adrilankha, the capital of the Dragaeran Empire. Dragaerans *do* usually grow to more than six feet tall, and have pointed ears, but are otherwise very similar to humans (oops, I meant, Easterners). In this city of wealth and magic, Vlad survives by his wits, by his witchcraft (an Eastern art, different from Dragaeran sorcery), his skills as an "assassin" (which is a somewhat different trade than you might think), his familiar (which is, more or less, the Jhereg of the title), and the handful of heavies who help him control a small corner of the city. This is the *good* guy. (That he comes off as likable is an indication of Brust's skill, and of the fact that this isn't just another swords-and-sorcery, elves-and-humans fantasy.) The problem is that Vlad has accepted a little job. He's got to kill someone who's very hard to kill, in a place where it's very hard kill people. If he fails, his client has promised not to kill him for failure. Ha. If he succeeds, he'll probably be the first casualty of a clan war that could kill everyone he know, and thousands more; and if he survives that, his client may still try to kill him. None of this touches upon the richness of the book. Now bear in mind that this solemn-sounding tale is often a rather light-hearted adventure. What you have is a book that's fun to read, a book that encourages you to re-read an occasional chapter so you know what's going on, a book that's full of most of the things people read SF for. Recommended. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Yendi: novel, Steven Brust, 1984 Date: 1 May 85 04:08:53 GMT This is an earlier tale of Vlad, written and published later. It suffers from the inevitable problem of a second book in a series: it doesn't have a whole new, rich world for its background. And it seemed to me Vlad's problem wasn't as interesting (someone just wants to kill him, that's all), or as well a part of all the other problems, as in JHEREG. But if you enjoyed the first book, you're likely to enjoy the second. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: To Reign in Hell: novel, Steven Brust, 1984 Date: 1 May 85 04:13:22 GMT Roger Zelazny (from the foreword): "When I realized where he was going with this story, my first reaction was, 'He isn't going to be able to pull this off.' Not without getting trite or cute or moralistic--or falling into any number of pitfalls I foresaw with regard to this material. I was wrong. He not only avoided them all, he told a fantastically engaging story with consummate grace and genuine artistry." Brust himself has invited comparison between this book and Zelazny's Lord of Light. Brust has also said Lord of Light is the best English- language novel written (so far) in the Twentieth Century. (In his opinion.) Alas, this seems to be one of those books everyone raves about but me. I'm not off hand sure why I don't like it a lot. This is the tale of a group of . . . well, beings, who were created out of Chaos. One, the second oldest and one of the most powerful, disagrees with another, the oldest, and the most powerful if any is. Their names are Satan and Yaweh. This is the story of their disagreement, and what comes of it. So what didn't I like? I was sometimes grated and sometimes impressed by the childlike behavior of the characters: yes, they are powerful creatures, and yes, they are newborn innocents all. I was often annoyed by the triteness of the characters, and by the lack of importance in their motivations. I was particularly annoyed by one Abdiel, not just by his actions but by his place in the story and the extent to which it effected everything else. And I was caught off guard by the humor--this is a *lighter* book than the previous two! *sigh* If everyone but me liked it, maybe you will too. Don't expect Genesis, don't expect Faust, don't even expect Lord of Light. But I'm not going to scare you away from it. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: NofTheBeast - True STINKER Date: 26 Apr 85 13:37:12 GMT > It is true that after one reads two or three of his books, the > characters all sound the same, but that is not what makes him a > great s.f. writer. It is, instead, his tremendous vision into the > future, the fascinating nature of his speculations, that hold the > reader. I have read just about everything he has written. Some > of his books have offended me (Starship Troopers, Farnham's > Freehold) and some have bored me (Number of the Beast and most of > his childrens books). Still, I come back for more everytime, and > I find it irritating to have to wait until the paperback comes out > so that I can afford to read his latest novel. > Bill Baker Yes. To paraphrase one notable SF writer (Pamela Dean), "Starship Troopers is infuriating and you can't stay away from it." This happens a lot. The thing is, as Alexi Panshin said, Heinlein could write a laundry list that would read well. And the other thing is, check out which standard SF themes were FIRST covered by Heinlein, and in many cases covered best by Heinlein. Oh, and by the way, I LIKE most of his children's books. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 85 08:53:36 pdt From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Authors in-person I am not sure quite what you objected to about KSR - personally, I find his writing rather dull, having insufficient action/plot to support his travelogue, and devoid of surprises (actually The Wild Shore is all that I've read, and I could not finish that). Maybe most 'big' SF authors are insipid in person - I've only met two, Asimov and Varley, and the conversation did tend to be rather one-sided, but both seemed quite friendly. -steve ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC Subject: Re: Kim S. Robinson Date: 2 May 85 14:17:30 GMT Donn Seeley > After I thought about the incident, though, I realized that > Robinson wasn't so obnoxious after all: EVERY author I've ever met > in person has been thoroughly artificial in just that way. It > must be an occupational disease... Hey! I think it's about time to speak up for Wild Authors I Have Known, or something. Those I've inspected at close range in environs closely resembling the native habitat behave like human beings with an apparent ease with language. Others I've seen in less natural circumstances, say signing books or lecturing, have, in my experience, conducted themselves with grace and usually treated me with no artificiality I could ascertain. But readings and lectures and other large gatherings suggested by publishers or alma maters or whatever have in their nature an element of artificiality. (Being asked to participate in these in an *occupational hazard*.) Members of the audience will ask you all sorts of questions, some of them useless ("Where do you get your ideas?") which seem to just *beg* for silly answers ("There's this spring in Maine and every year on March 21st I jump into it."); it's kind of an occupational disease of audience members to want to ask these kinds of questions (good grief, the person up there wrote a book that got you excited-- you want to ask them something, maybe if only to try to settle the confusion about that excitement)(or maybe you want to verify if your idea for a book has some congruency with what a Real author does to get ideas). Some people deal with audiences and their questions with serious grace, others don't. Some audience members like flip answers, some don't. I believe the issue is not whether *authors* become artificial, but how does anyone behave in those circumstances. What do you do when confronted with a large group of strangers, some of whom (by their looks? by their questions?) don't have the appearance of having much in common with you. (I'd get nervous.) What do you do when they ask strange questions you don't want to answer, can't answer, consider ridiculous? (I'd make up answers.) (I admit, I'm not an author. & I know people who are better at communicating interactively than I am. However, communicating interactively is not something required to be an author.) Robinson's answer sounded to me that he never intends to write more stories in the post-holocaust environment of _The_Wild_Shore_. To be honest, I'm pleased. I enjoyed the book and I think it stands well on it's own as a novel. I don't think it needs a continuing saga. I don't see any further problems I'd like solved in it. (But that's, of course, Robinson's choice.) I realize some ideas or realizations will take more words/volumes than others... I'm strongly reminded of a review column by Joanna Russ in an old issue of F&SF which I recently rediscovered and re-cherished; it ends with a paragraph about how art ends and life ends, but escapism just goes on and on. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa PS And that's one reason why, although I have fondness for Vlad Taltos, I think _To_Reign_In_Hell_ is the best Brust published so far. --lsc ------------------------------ Date: Thu 2 May 85 12:01:58-EDT From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA Subject: Criticizing the critics After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies. Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while most comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. Very few good, supporting statements are made. Now you must remember that writing allows much more freedom of expression than does movie making. I feel that given the restrictions of time, money, available actors (with talent) and politics (which eventually enter any large project) what we see is not too bad. Comments I've seen are about like this: WIZARDS: Generally poor LORD OF THE RINGS: Awful 2010: Fair, but criticized heavily on details SILENT RUNNING: Some support, but mostly criticized for lack of a 'realistic' plot & ending STAR WARS: Not taken serously DUNE: Horrible adaptation (I might even agree here) And so on... My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not putting its heart and soul into SF. No matter what they try, it gets torn apart by SF 'fans'. Nothing is good enough, nothing is acceptable. Well I enjoy seeing a new SF movie, if it is a serious attempt to do well, even if it falls short. We see *so* little of it. WIZARDS was enjoyable, LotR was entertaining, and 2010 was far better than watching the The Love Boat. I'm not saying films shouldn't be criticized. If they weren't nothing would improve. But the impression from this digest is, "Nothing is good enough for us. You do your best and we'll pick it to death somehow." Many of the criticisms I've seen are really ridiculous. If I was a movie producer and read this digest, I wouldn't even attempt SF. I'd get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a T-shirt, and be assured to make money without anyone noticing the plot (or lack of). I'd like to see more constructive comments; remove the clothespins from your noses and point out the good parts, the creative and original ideas, the novel approaches. Don't be in such a hurry to jump on the bandwagon of critics that recognition is forgotten. Support for what the industry does right may create more progress and generate more creative ideas than continuous, boring and tiresome criticisms. Comments, anyone? -- jd ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai theme music Date: 30 Apr 85 00:49:30 GMT > Someone some days back claimed off-handedly that the closing theme > music to "Buckaroo Banzai" was from Dave Grusin's "Night-Lines"... > Wrong! Well, there isn't a soundtrack album available yet, but the Official Buckaroo Banzi Fan Club is now up and running. If you want to help get the ball rolling on a soundtrack album, drop a line to... Banzai Institute c/o Diane Wilke 20th Century Fox box 900 Beverly Hills, CA 90213 This is an old virtual address (the only one I have in the system at the moment). If need be, I can look up the most recent data for you. "The Future Starts Tomorrow..." YoYoDyne Slogan Gary ------------------------------ From: daveb@rtech.ARPA (Dave Brower) Subject: Re: Mad Max (I) query Date: 30 Apr 85 06:52:28 GMT > Does the movie exist in the US without this dubbing... No. It's a reflection on both vagaries of international distribution and on clout George Miller had at the time of the original release. Perhaps you should call Qantas... G'Day! {amdahl, sun}!rtech!daveb {ucbvax,decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!daveb ------------------------------ From: apollo!nazgul@topaz.arpa (Kee Hinckley) Subject: Zelazny movies? Date: 2 May 85 14:33:30 GMT This is being posted for a friend of mine who is not on the net. Please reply by mail to me. Although I dump this group to hard-copy, I may not actually read it for several months, given my current lack of time, and I think he would like a response a little sooner than that. In 'Jack Of Shadows' (Roger Zelazny) the author description page noted that out of his 26 books one has been made into a movie and another has been sold to be made into a movie. Does anyone know anything about either of these? Brad Brilliant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 85 02:20 EDT From: Barry Margolin Subject: Starlost reruns I haven't seen any reruns off the Starlost series recently, but a few months ago I saw a two-hour TV movie made by concatenating the two "Oro" episodes (guest-starring Walter Koenig). It was Saturday afternoon fare on WPIX (channel 11 from NYC). Unfortunately, it was pretty boring. barmar ------------------------------ From: milford!bill@topaz.arpa (bill) Subject: Native Tongue Redux Date: 2 May 85 13:17:28 GMT Yeah, I forgot to mention that that author of _Native_Tongue_ was Suzette Haden Elgin. for(i=0; i<1000; i++) puts("The author of _Native_Tongue_ is Suzette Haden Elgin"); I feel that it is different from Vance's _Languages_of_Pao_ or Watson's _Embeddings_ in that not only is the environment changed by the change in language but the psyche of the users. That's why I mentioned Chomsky et al, who I thought maintained that language structures mirror structures in the human psyche (brain?). So a woman's language would imply a different built-in structures(?). It reminded me rather more of James Tiptree's "The Women That Men Don't See" in which women just trade one alien environment for another. A whole raft of tangents can be set off of from this, which might belong in other groups like net.nlang or net.women. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 3 May 85 1359-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #148 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 3 May 85 1359-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #148 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 4 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 148 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 1 May 85 01:10:50-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: ted 7 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is traveling through the Jungle of Inexperience on his way to Trufandom.] Chapter Seven In which Jophan encounters the Denizens of the Jungle. On the next day, Jophan discovered a phenomenon which had hitherto escaped his notice. Here and there through the jungle were large swathes of flattened vegetation which bore the appearance of having been made by some huge monster which had smashed through the jungle and left a wake of uprooted vines and splintered trees. Alarmed by this ominous sight he warned his companions to keep together and to proceed with caution. But it was to no avail, for as the day wore on first one of them and then another would grow impatient and stride on by himself. Others, again, would be unable to keep up the pace of the rest of the band and would fall discouraged and exhausted by the side of the path. From time to time Jophan tried to encourage these fainthearts, but he was amazed to notice that once they started to retrace their footsteps they seemed to disappear almost instantly from sight. He reflected that if the way into Fandom were as swift and comfortable as the way out, he would feel a great deal happier. So it was that by the middle of the afternoon Jophan found himself alone on the path. He occasionally caught up with one of those who had rushed on ahead, but each seemed either to have fallen victim to one of the countless perils of the jungle or had collapsed in a state of complete exhaustion from their reckless expenditure of energy. Several of them he found crushed and bleeding in one of the swathes he had noticed before, and Jophan wondered with trepidation what sort of monster was this which could create such havoc by its mere passing. He kept an anxious watch on the path ahead but it was difficult to see far because of the swirling vapours that constantly rose from the dank vegetation. Jophan marvelled that in his first rapturous view of Fandom he had failed to perceive any sign of this dreadful jungle whose extent seemed to be almost boundless. This thoughtful state of mind was rudely shattered by a dreadful crashing sound like that of the stampede of a hundred elephants, and the trees further down the path split asunder. Raising his Shield of Umor as bravely as he might, Jophan stared intently into the steaming jungle. A cold shadow of terror fell across him as he failed to see any cause for either the sound or the crushing of trees. The Thing appeared to be invisible. As the mysterious trampling sound grew nearer it took all of Jophan's courage to stand his ground. But then, as he peered ever more intently ahead, he suddenly perceived that it was not one great monster which was advancing on him, but a horde of smaller ones. His difficulty in seeing them at first was, he now realized, due to the fact that their markings and colorings resembled so closely the those of their surroundings. They were, he could see now, hideous creatures resembling warthogs, but much heavier, and with dreadful spikes protruding all over their squat bodies. As they drew near, Jophan's eye was caught be one of the Neofen who had earlier rushed on ahead and now lay by the side of the path recovering his strength. As Jophan watched, the Neofan got to his feet to resume his journey, and, unable to see the monsters, staggered abruptly onto the path without looking where he was going. Jophan shouted a warning, but the creatures had already seen their victim. Their little red eyes gleaming cruelly, they changed direction and bore down mercilessly on the unfortunate Neofan, brushing aside his Shield of Umor and crushing his bleeding body to the ground. When Jophan saw that the Shield of Umor was of no avail against the monsters he was overcome with fear and would have turned to flee had not a wondrous thing occurred. In the distance he heard the sound of golden trumpets, and beside him the voice of the Spirit of Fandom. "Stay, Jophan!" she whispered. "Do not run. These beasts you see are called Typos and their attention is attracted by sudden movement. If you proceed slowly and with care you will not be troubled by them." Despite these assurances, Jophan was wary of passing the monsters, which were moving slowly along the trail as if watching for more unsuspecting Neofen. "But," he protested, "what if one of their spikes should accidentally strike me? The trail lies very close to them and they are difficult to to detect in the undergrowth." "If you go carefully enough this will not happen," said the Fairy confidently. "However, to set your mind at rest, here is a bottle of magic liquid called Correction Fluid. A touch of this will instantly heal any wound made by a typo." At these words a tiny blue bottle appeared in the air before Jophan. Clutching it in his hand, he walked carefully past the herd and resumed his journey. [To be continued] ------------------------------ Date: Wed 1 May 85 01:11:24-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: ted 8 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is seeking the way to Trufandom.] Chapter Eight In which Jophan meets two Strange Neofen. In the days that followed, Jophan saw and heard many hordes of Typos blundering through the jungle but, thanks to the Fairy's advice, he came to no harm. One day, however, he came upon a small herd of them on the path in front of him, moving slowly in the same direction as he. He overtook them carefully, meaning to pass unobserved, when to his horror he noticed that there was a Neofan in their midst. He was about to call out a warning when he perceived that the Neofan was sitting, apparently unharmed, on a crude hurdle which was actually being borne along by the Typos. At this sight Jophan cried out in astonishment, upon which the Neofan turned round and greeted him cheerily. "Good morning, friend," he said. "What is your name and whither are you bound?" "My name is Jophan," said Jophan, "and I am on my way to Trufandom to obtain the Enchanted Duplicator and produce the Perfect Fanzine." "I also," said the Neofan. "My name is Kerles. Would you care to ride with me?" "No, thank you," replied Jophan without hesitation. "To tell the truth I should be afraid of these horrible creatures." "Horrible?" laughed Kerles. "Everyone fights shy of me on account of these Typos, but actually they are quite agreeable fellows. Look, they will even do tricks for me." So saying, he stretched out his Shield of Umor, which was large and brilliantly polished, and gave a word of command. Instantly several of the Typos jumped neatly over the Shield, performing somersaults and such other odd antics that Jophan burst out laughing. Jophan was impressed, but he noticed that while Kerles was admittedly saving energy by this mode of travel, he was not proceeding very quickly. Moreover, every now and then the Typos would wander off into the jungle, from which they were brought back with such difficulty that Kerles seemed in constant danger of losing his way altogether. Jophan felt that it was impossible to press the beasts into any really useful service, and, reluctant to remain in the presence of the ugly creatures, bade Kerles a friendly farewell. He had not gone very far when he perceived another traveller on the path, and hurried to overtake him. By the speed with which he was able to do so he surmised that the other was standing still, but when he caught up with him he found that such was not the case. The Neofan was in fact moving forwards, but so slowly that quite a considerable time elapsed between steps. This time the Neofan seemed to spend in consulting various books from a pile which he carried under one arm, and in clearing away every tiny frond from the the margin of the path before he ventured forward. On the Neofan's back was a huge rucksack which appeared to be crammed full with heavy objects, and a bundle of peculiarly-shaped swords, walking-sticks and umbrellas. Jophan's curiosity was aroused by this extraordinary mass of equipment and he addressed the Neofan politely. "Good afternoon, friend," he said. "My name is Jophan, and I am on my way to obtain the Magic Mimeograph and publish the Perfect Fanzine. Could you please tell me what are these things you're carrying?" "Good afternoon," said the Neofan. "These," he said proudly, pointing to the books, "are my guides. These swords and things are for cutting, shading, burnishing, and so on. A large number of all these are absolutely essential if one is to find one's way through this jungle safely. Although," he added mournfully, "I didn't want to come this way at all. I would have gone by the Letterpress Railroad if I had had enough money. My name is Perfexion, and I too --" At this point there was a rustling noise in the undergrowth and, panic-stricken, the Neofan threw all his belongings to the ground. Rummaging in his rucksack he pulled out a peculiar-looking article made of wood and glass. Holding this to his eye, he peered intently into the jungle. After some moments he was apparently satisfied, and put the instrument back in his rucksack. "What was that thing you were looking through?" asked Jophan curiously. "That was my 'scope," said Perfexion. "I use it to watch out for those... animals." "You mean the Typos?" asked Jophan. The Neofan seemed terrified by the mere utterance of the word and stared hauntedly into the jungle. "Yes," he whispered fearfully. "Those dreadful Things. Er... would you like to travel with me? It would be so much safer if we could both watch out for... Them." Jophan was filled with pity for the timorous Neofan, but he realized he would make very slow progress in his company. "Thank you," he said kindly, "but I'd rather just take my chances with the Typos. I want to get on." He shook hands with the Neofan and continued on his way. At the next bend in the path he turned around to give a friendly wave, but Perfexion was so busy with his equipment that he did not notice. Jophan slept fitfully that night, his mind occupied with the events of the day, and was up and on his way before daylight the next morning. So adept had he become at negotiating the jungle, and so dextrous at avoiding the Typos, that he had covered a considerable distance before the sun rose above the horizon. When it did so Jophan saw to his delight that the jungle seemed to be coming to an end. The trees were further apart, the undergrowth less dense, and the path stretched invitingly in front of him, clear and well-marked. Jophan broke into an eager run. [To be continued] ------------------------------ Date: Wed 1 May 85 01:12:17-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: ted 9 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is on his way to Trufandom.] Chapter Nine In which Jophan encounters the Hucksters. In a few minutes he was standing, breathless with excitement rather than exertion, at the very edge of the the jungle. Before him he saw a broad well-surfaced road which ran gently through a fertile plain, towards where in the far distance gleamed the towers and spires of a splendid city. A few yards ahead of the point where he was standing a myriad of tracks such as the one he had travelled converged together to make the road, as countless tiny tributaries form a great river. Along these paths as Jophan watched, other Neofen came running with glad cries, to dash along the road in the direction of the shining city. Mindful of the unseen perils to which such over-eager Neofen had fallen victim on a previous occasion Jophan resolved to be on his guard, and followed the others more soberly. It soon became obvious that he was approaching civilization. Although the city itself was still far away there were great hoardings in the fields by the side of the road covered with brightly-colored advertisements from various establishments in the city. Jophan read each of these, impressed despite himself at the attractions they had to offer. While he was staring at a particularly large and brilliant hoarding he was startled to hear what sounded like a cry of pain from behind it. Vaulting the low fence by the side of the road, Jophan quickly ran behind the hoarding. There, running around in little circles and uttering heart-rending cries of anguish, was one of the Neofen he had seen that morning. Jophan was horrified to see the change which had overcome him. His once ruddy face had taken on a dreadful pallor, and his body was emaciated almost beyond recognition. Before Jophan could reach him the Neofan collapsed on the ground and began to moan piteously. Jophan ran and knelt by his side. The Neofan looked up at him wanly. "Too late..." he murmured, "...dying...beware...don't buy..." His lips continued to move but no sound came forth. "Don't buy what?" asked Jophan anxiously. The Neofan summoned up his last reserves of strength. "...tin bug," he whispered. Then his eyes closed and he ceased to breath. Jophan saw that he was dead and consigned his soul to the Happy Fanning Ground. Then, tenderly, he commenced to arrange the body in a more seemly position. No sooner had he raised the Neofan's shoulders from the ground than Jophan started back in horror. There, on the back of the corpse, was clamped a hideous leech-like creature, bloated with the life-blood of its victim. Aghast, Jophan dropped the body and stumbled back to the road. So stunned was he by the horror of what he had seen that it was some time before Jophan recovered himself sufficiently to resume his journey. Even then he was still worried and perplexed as to the meaning of the Neofan's warning, for so far in his travelling along the road he had seen no establishment where anything might be bought. This last problem was solved when in a few moments he rounded a slight bend in the road. He had arrived at a crossroads where among a small forest of hoardings there clustered a group of hucksters' stalls. They were heaped with gaily colored and attractive objects, and behind each stall stood a huckster loudly proclaiming the merits of his wares. As Jophan walked past, one of them accosted him ingratiatingly. "Greetings, young sir," he said, rubbing his hands together. "Might I make so bold as to inquire your name and destination?" "My name is Jophan," said Jophan guardedly, "and I am on my way to Trufandom to obtain the Magic Mimeograph and produce the Perfect Fanzine." "Then I have just the thing for you," exclaimed the huckster. "It is a long journey on which you have embarked, and a lonely one. Why not take one of these adorable little pets to beguile the tedious hours?" With these words he held up a transparent case in which reposed a captivating jewel-like creature resembling a ladybird, gaily colored and beautiful to look upon. Its appearance so fascinated Jophan that his hand went involuntarily to his pocket. "What do you call it?" he asked, in a last effort at caution. "Its a Kolektinbug," said the huckster, holding out his hand for Jophan's money. With the meaning of the Neofan's warning now made hideously clear to him, Jophan backed away from the deadly little creature and its insidious temptation. "No, thank you," he said. I...I've changed my mind." Pursued by curses and imprecations of the thwarted hucksters, Jophan continued steadfastly on his way to Trufandom, pausing only at one of the less pretentious establishments to replenish his provisions. [To be continued] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 May 85 1418-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #149 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 5 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 149 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Brust (3 msgs) & Chalker & Powers (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: The Sheep Look Up: novel, John Brunner Date: 1 May 85 03:56:34 GMT I finally got around to reading this ecological tour de force. It's damned depressing, but the quality of the story and of the writing pulled me through it. Not recommended if you're in the mood for a good light read. Excellent book. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 1 May 85 07:11:25 GMT Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: >WOW! > >I just read To Reign in Hell (by S. Brust) and it is a rreally >grreat book. To be quite honest, I didn't think it was as good as >Brin's stuff (sorry SZKB), but it is well worth the paper it is >printed on and much more! I don't know about how it compares with Brin, but I was really disappointed myself, after the great recommendation by Zelazny and all. Oh, sure, the writing was nice enough, but it got just a bit forced in places, and I found myself anticipating turns of phrase, or horrid puns, and there they were, staring me in the face. > I really like the fact that it is only a novel - I like series, >but I like novels too, and there are too damned few of those >around! Uuuuuhmn, looked an awful lot like a lead-in to a sequel to me. Any word on this, SKZB? > The characters are great, and the book left me wishing I was a >little more familiar with the biblical account of this stuff. There IS no such account. There might be some traces of this in the Jewish scriptures, but since many of our Jewish cohorts claim that there is no mention of "Satan" as an angel in the Hebrew... Brust credited Milton's "Paradise Lost" as a major source, if I recall, and there are other plays and poems on the topic going back quite a ways. > In addition, I really like Brust's writing. It never gets in the >way, and there is some great humor. I particularly liked the first >sentence of the book. I must have read it over four or five times >before I turned the page. I liked it enough to go out and buy >Jehereg (spelling?), which is waiting on my "to read" shelf. >I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea >why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English? Because he read the originals to Faustus. Actually, that was one of the touches I liked, but it wasn't Medieval English, only archaic english. True Medieval English would have been rather hard to read. The things I didn't like: The characterizations all started out real nice, but as the villainy progressed it got to be just a bit too much to take. If Brust wanted to offend Christians, Moslems, and Jews, he did a real good job of it. My real complaint, however, is that the choice was the OBVIOUS one. If you want to make it tragic, take the cheap way, make Satan the good, honorable one who refuses to go along with the duplicitous and rather foolish Y*hw*h. And of course God is "just another angel" and Yeshua is the last created angel, rather than the coequal or even the first created. Yawn. It's been DONE. A multitude of times, it's been done. If you want tragedy, make the real tragedy come out of the real losses. I would be impressed if the conflict between obedience and choice had been handled in a way that didn't make God into a proto-Nixon. Or which dealt with a truly omnipotent God, or a truly omniscient God. The mechanism of reducing Y*hw*h into a mere angel, limited and accessible, is just too easy. I dunno. Maybe its just because I have seen too much of that type of thing coming out of cults, new and ancient, and it isn't a new approach to me. Perhaps it was because my religion was offended. I imagine the same kind of dissonance happens to Hindus who read Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" series. Oh well. >PS: Here is another question unrelated to the general topic. Being >unsure where to ask, I will ask the kind-hearted SFLovers. What in >blue blazes does :-) mean?? That is the infamous Snicker Icon. It is usually left out of articles which are intended to be taken as humour, leading to hurt feelings and attacks of offensensitivity. Some people leave it out because they detest smiley faces of any form. It infests the Usenet more than the Arpanet, where people are politer and don't have to tell everyone when to laugh. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Thu 2 May 85 15:54:22-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #141 > I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea > why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English? Steve Brust can correct me on this, but I'll bet is's so that Beelzebub can say ``Get thee behind me, Satan!'' (instead of the modern ``Get behind me, man!'') toward the end. **** spoiler **** There were lots of cute touches like that; Satan inviting Yaweh and some angels for pin-dancing; a bunch of angels getting a committee together to design a variant of a horse that could live in the desert, and so on. More impressively, they didn't damage the plot of the book at all. Anthony's Xanth books are full of cute touches, to the detriment of anything serious about the books (I invoke flames, here) -- Xanth is made entirely of cute touches. I'm glad that some people can add this kind of humor to a serious book. > What in blue blazes does :-) mean?? I've heard (-: and :-) called joke brackets. Rotate them a quarter-circle. (v: ... :^) are tongue-in-cheek signs. Anyone want to publish a list of useful symbols such as these? With all available sincerity, Bard ------------------------------ From: ddb@mrvax.DEC (DAVID DYER-BENNET MRO1-2/L14 DTN 231-4076) Subject: Steven Brust Date: 2 May 85 13:52:28 GMT Since there's been some interest in Steven Brust on this newsgroup, I thought I'd repost the following from the Compuserve SF&Fantasy SIG: Join us this Saturday, May 4, when our guest in CO [conference] will be Steven Brust, author of the delightful fantasy novels JHEREG and YENDI, and the astonishing TO REIGN IN HELL. The CO will start at 6:30 PM EDT. Don't miss it! (On Compuserve, "conference" is an online meeting of lots of people, like multi-person "talk" or terminal linking (depending on what operating systems you grew up on. I've never participated in one, so I can't say too much more, but I expect I'll be in this one.) -- David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...!{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|purdue|shasta|utcsrgv}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb Arpa: ddb%mrvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA DEC Enet: Dyer-Bennet@KL2102, mrvax::ddb Compuserve: 74756,723 AT&T/NYNEX: (617) 467-4076 (work) (617) 562-2130 (home) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 May 85 13:37 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Downtiming the Night Side {*** SPOILER ***} The opinions, conclusions, and other such things in this review are solely my own, and are not necessarily those of anyone else. Downtiming the Night Side Jack Chalker May 1985 Tor Books 812-53288-0 This is a "time war" novel, taking place in a number of times and locales spread between the beginning of the Age of Mammals through to the "leading edge" of time (200-odd years in our future). The time war is one (very important) aspect of a general war being fought between Earth (the seriously mislabeled "Democratic Motherworld") and the Outworlds (populated by genetically-adapted human pioneers, intent on independence and viewed by Earth-normal humans as inhuman monsters). Technical background Physical time travel is possible, although it requires immense amounts of power and has some serious restrictions. The matrix of Time attempts to smooth out and absorb the effects of time travelers. If you jump back in time, you find sharing the body of a person of that era... a person who did not exist until you made the jump. Time performs a "least effort" creation of a person for you to inhabit... the person created is one whose life or death makes a minimal difference to that time. The person has a full history, personality, memories, and so forth, and unless you (the traveller) make a conscious effort to take control, the host personality generally goes along pretty much as usual. As time goes by, the traveller's identity is progressively absorbed by the host's. When the "trip point" is reached, the host has become stronger than the traveller... and if the traveller attempts to time-jump out of that era, s/he ends up with the host's body rather than his/her own. If the traveller does not leave within a certain (varying) number of days, his/her identity degenerates to a set of memories with no consciousness... to abstract data... and eventually vanishes entirely. It's possible to interfere with Time, by altering significant events in the time stream. Earthsiders and Outworlders in the past (and their recruited agents) attempt to alter historical events in ways which will reroute history into paths which give their opposing societies an advantage in the war. Some of these diversions eliminate the sequences of events which lead to the birth of the time-travellers themselves, leaving them as "nightsiders" with memories of a time that no longer is/was. At this point, their choices are basically: pick an era, jump to it, and be assimilated (perhaps into their alter-ego in that time path), or jump back to an era in time before humans existed... if they go far enough back, there will be no way that their actions can affect human-era time, and thus Time will not attempt to assimilate them. Many of the nightsiders continue to act as agents for their particular sides in the time war; some of them have passed through dozens of trip points, inhabited many different bodies, and have absorbed (and been absorbed into) so many different identities that they are no longer the people that they once were, except in the most tenuous way. Personal comments and opinions Chalker dedicates the book to Wells, Williamson, Leinster, Heinlein, Garrett, Leiber, and Machiavelli. I'm most strongly reminded of Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps" (people looping back on themselves) and Laumer's "Dinosaur Beach" (ditto, plus the time-war aspects). The idea of a time traveller's identity merging with that of a host in the target period (even though the traveller had brought his/her body along also) is a twist I haven't run into before; it has both good and bad effects on the story. One reaction I felt fairly early in the book (and which remained with me to some degree throughout) was that Chalker's theory of time travel seems rather contrived... as if Chalker had an idea for a plot and constructed a minimal time-travel theory to permit him to construct the story around that idea. In his characters' descriptions of how time travel works, there were substantial gaps (e.g., everything between the first detection of backwards-moving particles in an accelerator, and a working time-suit/time-chamber setup was glossed over). One character commented, "... this absorption phenomenon seems designed mostly to counter that sort of thing." (the Grandfather paradox). I'm sure it was (by Chalker), but it seems a bit strange to hear a chief scientist speak of the structure of time as being "designed". As in the Well World series, Chalker seems to have selected a very flexible background (alterable time, vs. the selectively-editable universe-structure of Markovian science) with a lot of room to make different thing happen... and then tends to use the loose rules of such an undertaking to "pull things out of his hat" in a fairly arbitrary way. He sometimes seems to fall into the trap of depending on a deus ex machina to get his characters out of (or into!) a scrape. This story seems to share a characteristic common to many of Chalker's stories I've read - weak/wooden/bland characterization. Chalker's characters don't seem to have much in the way of distinguishing features (differences in phrasing, for example) except when Chalker chooses to make an issue of them in particular cases. The blandness was made even more severe in this story by the fact that the major characters were all subject to repeated personality fade/shift, as an inherent (and major) part of the plot. I have a feeling that he tends to think up plots first, and then construct characters to "go through the motions" of acting out the plot; I find it difficult to picture them as real people, or to care what happens to them in the long run. Some of the characters are stereotypical almost to the point of being caricatures... for example, Holger Neumann: an intelligent and sensitive homosexual man, "The only child of an attorney... rather spoiled early on. His father had been something of a wimp at home, and it was his mother who dominated almost everything either one of them said or did.". So... what do I think of the story as a whole? It's typical Chalker: an interesting read in some respects, but without enough solid data or speculation to be satisfying as a hard-science story (a la Clarke, Hogan, or Niven), and unsatisfying as a character-based or sentient-interest story. As with most Chalker, I'm not sorry I read it, but probably won't go back and reread it in the future. ------------------------------ From: hyper!dean@topaz.arpa (Dean Gahlon) Subject: Re: DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE Date: 26 Apr 85 21:00:07 GMT > I realize all this sounds very negative. The book is not that > bad, but it's not that good either. Read his first novel instead, > and hope for a better one for his third. Actually, _Dinner_At_Deviant's_Palace_ is more like his fourth or possibly even fifth book. The titles I know of are _Epitaph_In_Rust_ (a Laser book (remember them?) set in a future Los Angeles similar to, but with significant differences from, the one in DaDP), _The_Drawing_Of_The_Dark_ (similar to and close in quality to _The_Anubis_Gates_), and then of course _The_Anubis_Gates_ and DaDP. There may be one other Laser book; I can't now recall. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE Date: 26 Apr 85 14:14:27 GMT > DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE by Tim Powers > > Powers's first book (THE ANUBIS GATES) was so remarkable that > this novel was almost certainly doomed to suffer by comparison. > Perhaps it's unfair to expect the complexity that one found in THE > ANUBIS GATES in everything Powers writes, but this does disappoint > the reader somewhat in that regard. This is not to say that this > is a bad book--it isn't--but it many ways, it's an ordinary book. > Evelyn C. Leeper Interesting. I found DADP to be superior to THE ANUBIS GATES. Not that his first novel was bad, but I never had the feeling that his plot was out of control in DINNER, and I also think his characters were deeper, and he was playing with deeper themes. Furthermore, it just read better--I always knew what was going on, and the tension was real emerged from the characters and situations. Again, I don't think ANUBIS GATES failed at these, but to me it didn't succeed as well. -- SKZB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 May 85 1141-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #150 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 150 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art, Books - Benford & Brust (2 msgs) & Dick & Macavoy & Scarborough & Packaging & Agnostics Prayer & Upcoming novels, Television - Starlost, Miscellaneous - The Dead and SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Art in True Names Date: 12 May 85 06:19:18 GMT > First of all, you must recognize that very few sf artists > have as muchj control over their work as you seem to think, Mark. > Art directors often tell artists precisely which scenes they want > illustrated, from what perspective, and so on. When such limits > are placed on an artist, they can prevent some of his or her > talent from showing through. > --Dave Axler I think that I complained about the art, not the artist for the most part. The art in a book is the result of a team effort, the artist is an important member of the team, but not the only one. Certainly misplaced illustrations that divulge plot twists are not the artists fault. The quality of a given illustration is more the artist's responsibility, but not entirely all. I am not sure whose fault the unimaginative illustrations of some Bluejay books are. Misplacing illustrations is the art editor's fault. Actually, if an illustration is not good, the fault of that is also ultimately that of the art director. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: sampath@topdoc.DEC (Superman 3.2 under field test) Subject: Gregory Benfor novels Date: 3 May 85 17:24:09 GMT Can some one post/email brief reviews of Gregory Benford novels ? Thanks in advance. Sampath Giri ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-topdoc!sampath ------------------------------ From: wuphys!mff@topaz.arpa (Swamp Thing) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell - Biblical accuracy Date: 2 May 85 16:54:29 GMT I also recently read this book and, like the origional poster, wished I knew more about the Biblical account of the events portrayed. Are there any Bible types out there who would care to comment on this? Mark F. Flynn Department of Physics Washington University St. Louis, MO 63130 ihnp4!wuphys!mff ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 3 May 85 19:00:25 GMT It is Bad Form for an author to respond to negative reviews. Up until now, I haven't. All of the reviews I have read (including yours, by the way) have been intelligent, and that is such a pleasure that I almost don't care about how negative some of them have been. However, I am into bad form these days. The thing is, there were a few points that just made me itch to answer, so I'm going to scratch the itch. I hope you don't mind. >> I really like the fact that it is only a novel - I like series, >>but I like novels too, and there are too damned few of those >>around! > > Uuuuuhmn, looked an awful lot like a lead-in to a sequel to me. > Any word on this, SKZB? Absolutely not! There are only three possible sequels that I can see: First, the book of Job. No thanks, Heinlein covered it. Certainly not the same way I would have, but he did. In any case, this would have been a short story or a Novelette, which, as they said in Monty Python and the Holy Grain, "Isn't my idiom." Second, the Passion. Yeah, I could, but I'm just not interested. The point of the book was NOT to offend anyone, though I'm willing to if necessary. Doing the Passion WOULD be offensive, and I just don't have enough interest in it to justify it. The third possibility for a sequel is the apocalypse. Yeeeech! I almost killed myself doing the research for HELL. Do you have any idea how much apocalyptic literature I'd have to wade through to do a competent sequel???? No way!!! >>I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea >>why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English? > > Because he read the originals to Faustus. Actually, that was one > of the touches I liked, but it wasn't Medieval English, only > archaic english. True Medieval English would have been rather > hard to read. It was Shakespearean English. It was corrected by Shakespearean scholar and writer Pamela Dean. If there are any mistakes, it is because I did over-ride her recommendations on a couple of points. > The things I didn't like: The characterizations all started out > real nice, but as the villainy progressed it got to be just a bit > too much to take. If Brust wanted to offend Christians, Moslems, > and Jews, he did a real good job of it. My real complaint, > however, is that the choice was the OBVIOUS one. If you want to > make it tragic, take the cheap way, make Satan the good, honorable > one who refuses to go along with the duplicitous and rather > foolish Y*hw*h. And of course God is "just another angel" and > Yeshua is the last created angel, rather than the co equal or even > the first created. Yawn. Okay, here we go. If this is what you took from it, I didn't do my job. This is unquestionably a flaw. But, for the sake of discussion, I'll say this: What you describe was exactly what I was trying NOT to do. Satan admits in conversation with Beelzebub, toward the end, that Yaweh had been RIGHT, that his decisions were correct and that he, Satan, was wrong. I never did buy that anyone with Satan's intelligence could have revolted against an omnipotent God. So, why did it happen? I think there are as many holes in my approach as in the traditional one, but they are different holes. However, I don't see where it was "cheap." I went over and over that manuscript, doing my best to make sure there were no cheap shots, or any actions motivated by stupidity. If I had succeeded, you wouldn't have come away with the opinion you did, yet I can't see where I failed. Yaweh was driven by love, Abdiel by fear, Satan by indecision, and Beelzebub by loyalty. If there was anyone in the entire book who really knew what was going on, it was Lilith, but she was too lacking in self-confidence to take the necessary steps. No, Yaweh was never evil. He was forced into evil actions, as was Satan, by his own failings. The real flaw in the book (I say its a flaw because very few people have picked it up, so I obviously didn't bring it off) was this: Abdial's actions didn't matter. If there had been no Abdial, things would have proceeded in almost exactly the same way. In some sense, that was the point of the book, so in that sense, the book failed. I take consolation in the number of people who have enjoyed it anyway--to me, a book's "point" is secondary to its enjoyment value. This is one reason that I like C. S. Lewis and don't like George Orwell--even though I disagree with them to same extent. There. It was probably stupid to write this, but maybe you hit me where it hurt. In any case, I will repeat, it is a pleasure to be read and reviewed by people who actually READ the book, and have something to say about it, even if the review is negative. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: bunny!ehn0@topaz.arpa (Eric Nyberg) Subject: The Works of Philip K. Dick Date: 3 May 85 17:33:37 GMT As a new usenik, I would like to convey my willingness to communicate (publicly or privately) about the works of the late Philip K. Dick. I am a rabid PKD enthusiast, a member of the PKD society, and a collector of PKD novels. I have an almost complete collection of his published novels, and many of his magazine appearances. I would be willing to give reviews, previews, etc. if anyone is interested and has never checked him out (Phil's largest media exposure was for the movie "Bladerunner", adapted (*very* loosely) from his novel "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?". He also won the Hugo award for his novel "The Man in the High Castle".). I would also like to correspond with anyone who is interested in the branch of religion known as Gnosticism, particularly in regard to literary symbolism and character systems. Dick's later works draw heavily on Gnostic modes of thought. If anyone can locate a copy of "Counter-Clock World" or "The World Jones Made", for sale or trade, I would appreciate it (These two will complete my collection). ehn0@gte-labs Eric H. Nyberg, 3rd. GTE Laboratories 40 Sylvan Rd., Waltham, MA 02254 (617)466-2518 ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: DAMIANO Date: 3 May 85 16:42:58 GMT DAMIANO by R. A. MacAvoy Bantam, 1983, $2.75. A book review by Mark R. Leeper Many people claim to live their religion, but few so literally as Damiano Delstrego. Damiano seems to be in constant contact with all sorts of wonders of Italian folklore. Living in the Alps in the north of Italy in the Middle Ages, Damiano takes music lessons from the Archangel Raphael. Damiano is the son of a witch and something of a witch himself, but not enough of an adept to protect his village from General Pardo's invading armies. So Damiano goes off on a quest to find some magical way to protect his village from war. Along on the travels will come Macchiata, Damiano's faithful dog who happens to talk. What happens on this quest will leave Damiano changed forever. MacAvoy's writing style is as accomplished as that of anyone writing these fantasy these days. Her prose is clear, simple, and uncluttered. This is not a book to speed through but to savor. Like Stephen King's, for example, the plot does not advance at a rapid pace. There is time to develop characters and make them three-dimensional. I find, however, that King's long build-ups do not so well flesh out the characters as do MacAvoy's descriptions. King concentrates more on what his characters do while MacAvoy does a better job of telling her reader who her characters are. King writes like a snapshot, MacAvoy like an oil painting with every detail perfect. This book may not knock your socks off, but page-by-page it is well worth the reading. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: spock!willard@topaz.arpa (Bill Brickman '88 ) Subject: Re: Piers Anthony Date: 2 May 85 22:36:48 GMT Does anyone have any opinions on Elizabeth Scarborough ? I have read all of her Song of Sorcery series and am now reading The_Harem_Of_Aman_Akbar. I hear she is coming out with another Song of Sorcery series book about Bronwyns's baby. Is this true ? If it is, could someone tell me when it's coming out ? Thanx, Willard 'n' the rats ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: packaging Date: 26 Apr 85 13:47:00 GMT >> DON'T BLAME THE AUTHOR FOR THE PACKAGING OF HIS BOOK!!! > Well, yes, few authors can even complain (and get results) about a > proposed cover--this is true not just for science fiction authors. > (or fiction authors) > > However, some biggies appear to be able to influence things some. > I've heard Harlan Ellison at public lectures flame about getting > them to leave off those ads and forms you often get at the end of > a book. He claims to have been successful. Let's see...Patricia > Wrede's latest (_The_Harp_of_...) doesn't have any ads, but both > Steven Brust's _To_Reign_In_Hell_ and Pamela Dean's > _The_Secret_Country_ do, and all of these came out from Ace this > spring. So, SZKB, can you comment on these ads? I can imagine > that Ace wouldn't give Pamela Dean much say so, since this was her > first book, but you've got a couple. Does anybody other than > Ellison gripe about the ads at the end? > > L S Chabot Well, uh, gee...I dunno. I don't really care. It would be nice if they only advertised author's I like, or other writers in my writer's group, but I'm not about to make a stink about it. I've never heard anyone else complain about such things. They used to have an advertising blurb at the beginning of the book, too. I was hoping that eventually everyone in our group would appear in the advertising for everyone else, but now they've changed to it to a "Other ACE books by the same author" sort of thing. That's okay too. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Thu 2 May 85 13:43:34-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: agnostics prayer Two versions of same are recited by Madrak the Mighty in Creatures of Light and Darkness -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 May 85 02:33:52 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Yet more upcoming novels: Asimov, Wolfe I forgot to note in my last submission about new novels that the May LOCUS also covers Isaac Asimov's work on the Foundation/Robot series. Asimov has already finished ROBOTS AND EMPIRE, which is scheduled for a September release plus a limited edition from Phantasia Press; the events of this novel take place two centuries after those of THE ROBOTS OF DAWN. For his new Doubleday contract, Asimov plans to produce '... FOUNDATION AND EARTH, a sequel to FOUNDATION'S EDGE [aka LIGHTNING ROD], and PRELUDE TO FOUNDATION, which is about Hari Seldon as a middle-aged man. Eventually, there will be another book tying things together.' The June F&SF contains an excerpt from 'Gene Wolfe's upcoming novel', but the title of the novel is never mentioned! It's not FREE LIVE FREE, nor does it appear to be THE URTH OF THE NEW SUN, although it looks suspiciously similar to other NEW SUN material. The excerpt is a little story similar to the stories told in the Pelerines' field hospital in THE CITADEL OF THE AUTARCH, and it is introduced by a narrator whose locutions are reminiscent of Severian's. But the narrator's statement that he will relate as much of the story 'as I recall' and the mention of the localities of Babylon and 'Riverland' (Mesopotamia?) argue that the narrator is not Severian and the setting is not Urth. Still, time travel is an essential part of the plot of NEW SUN... Does anyone have any idea what this excerpt is really from? Still suffering from Wolfe deprivation (time to re-read CERBERUS), Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Starlost reruns Date: 4 May 85 03:29:16 GMT > From: Barry Margolin > I haven't seen any reruns off the Starlost series recently, but a > few months ago I saw a two-hour TV movie made by concatenating the > two "Oro" episodes (guest-starring Walter Koenig). It was > Saturday afternoon fare on WPIX (channel 11 from NYC). > Unfortunately, it was pretty boring. > barmar My goodness! Starlost! I haven't heard that series title since I had seen it about 11 years ago on the CBC. I had no idea that they were rerunning it... ...can anyone provide further info? Like: who is rerunning it? A national independent like WTBN, or locals? --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: The Dead and SF Date: 3 May 85 19:44:32 GMT > From: "James B. Hofmann" (RAMD) > I would appreciate hearing any other comments on the relation of > the Dead with SF or for that matter any rock groups' connection > with SF. Well, it seems there will be a novel out at the end of the year called BROKEDOWN PALACE. Does that count? -- SKZB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 May 85 1209-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #151 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 6 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 151 Today's Topics: Books - Blish & Brust (2 msgs) & Cameron & Hogan (3 msgs) & Wyndham & Mugwump 9 & A Request, Films - Sequels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: genat!geo@topaz.arpa (George Swan) Subject: Re: Star Wars Date: 5 May 85 09:29:52 GMT When I was thirteen I read James Blish's "Cities in Flight" novels. I really enjoyed them. For those of you who haven't read them, he did a really good job of making everything seem reasonable. There was only one thing in those novels that stretched my credulity to the breaking point. I could accept gravity generators that were able to pick up whole cities and send them shooting across the galaxy, I could accept drugs that made you live forever, the one thing I could not accept was an ex-hollywood movie star becoming president of the United States of America. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell Date: 3 May 85 17:59:08 GMT > From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA > To be quite honest, I didn't think it was as good as Brin's stuff > (sorry SZKB) No apology necessary. When STARTIDE RISING won the Nebula, I was delighted, as well as being pleased the Nebula continued to be an award that meant something. An outstanding book. > I am left with but one small question: does anyone have any idea > why Beelzebub speaks in Medieval English? > >>Dave I'm curious, too. *I* have no idea. Well, er, I sort of know part of it: One of the things I was playing with there was using dialogue to convey character (note the difference between Lucifer's speech styles and those of Mephistopheles). But beyond that, it just happened. And, by the way, thank for liking the first sentence. It is the only thing I have written to date that I am, without reservation or doubt, proud of. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 2 May 85 16:07:46 GMT Stephen Hutchison, responding to Dave Newman's positive review of To Reign in Hell (Stephen Brust), writes: > If Brust wanted to offend Christians, Moslems, and Jews, he did a > real good job of it. ... take the cheap way, make Satan the good, > honorable one who refuses to go along with the duplicitous and > rather foolish Y*hw*h. And of course God is "just another angel" > and Yeshua is the last created angel, rather than the coequal or > even the first created. Yawn. If someone is religious and regards his religion's account of these events as the only true and valid way to handle the subject matter, *sure* he'll be offended. Sorry if your religion got gored, but as far as I'm concerned the treatment was original and extremely well crafted. Before reading it I doubted that it could live up to Zelazny's introduction, and was pleasantly surprised. Hey, what's wrong with Yeshua's creation, other than your reading of John 1? His creation was unique and (by his own account) the only peaceful one. > I would be impressed if the conflict between obedience and choice > had been handled in a way that didn't make God into a proto-Nixon. > Or which dealt with a truly omnipotent God, or a truly omniscient > God. The mechanism of reducing Y*hw*h into a mere angel, limited > and accessible, is just too easy. Yaweh was not cast as a "mere angel", but as the first among them ... and after he learned to tap into the illiaster of the others, he was MUCH more powerful than the others. But what would be so good about an omnipotent and omniscient God as a plot element? Where will you get conflict? Imagine a Superman story that doesn't involve Kryptonite or others from Superman's planet -- if the character is too far ahead of everybody else there's nothing for him to strive against. I found it a moving and very well-written book - the more so because I had thought the whole subject matter had been mined out centuries ago. I strongly recommend it! Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: ewok@ucbvax.ARPA (Lisa Rodgin) Subject: Mushroom Planet Books (real titles!!) Date: 4 May 85 02:39:30 GMT The set of five books by Eleanor Cameron: The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom Planet Stowaway to the Mushroom Planet Mr. Bass's Planetoid A Mystery for Mr. Bass Time and Mr. Bass For what it is worth, I own the first book. It is a cheapie edition published by Little, Brown and Co. (I picked it up in Dark Carnival, in Berkeley). I strongly suspect that the books are out of print though. I read them all in libraries. (but if anyone finds them, please tell me...I love them too!!) -lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 May 85 10:42 EDT From: Mark F. Rand Subject: re:James P. Hogan's Genesis Machine I forget who wrote the letter I'm replying to(I left my printout at home), but here are the reasons why the Russians didn't build another Machine and why the Americans didn't just cut the power off.. 1)The Machine was set to destroy any other Genesis machine the instant the other machine was turned on. The machines effective range as a weopon was about the distance from the Earth to the Moon, so if a machine was built anywhere within the effective range and turned on, Kablooie!!! 2)The Machine had an internal power source that would give it just enough "juice" to explode the capitals of the U.S. and Russia if outside power were to be cut. And the Machine was in a bunker that was "safe" from being bombed(the Machine would not be damaged enough to keep it from exploding a city or two). Also if the machine detected anyone trying to force their way into its innards, another Kablooie!!! So, in effect, the Genesis Machine was "invulnerable"(or at least couldn't be put out of operation without a lot of people being put "out of opertion"). And of course since ICBM's (Inter-continental Ballistic Missles) would not be of any use (because they couldn't reach their targets), and the "defensive" missles had been left alone, attacking another country would be very "uneconomical"(ground-to-air missles would get most enemy planes before those planes could do any damage). So what do we have??? An enforced peace, that apparently after 200 yrs gives everyone a chance to forget any hatred to one another...(thought seems to me, we are a very innovative race; we would find someway of fighting one another. But, there's always hope). See ya Mark Rand (Queens College, New York City) Bitnet- Tigqc356@Cunyvm Compuserve I.D. - 75615,1712 ------------------------------ From: ukma!sean@topaz.arpa (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: James P. Hogan (Genesis Machine *SPOILER*) Date: 30 Apr 85 18:03:22 GMT eyal%wisdom.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA writes: (concerning the J-machine) > ... Second, the epilogue is totally unconvincing; the only two > possible endings I can see are: 1. The USSR manages to send an > agent to cut off the J-Bomb's power supply; this has the result of > destroying the USA army, and USSR now easily takes over the world > (and then, perhaps, proceeds to make Clifford into a national > hero). 2. The USA moves all its military instalations to new > locations, and then cuts off the J-Bomb's power supply and builds > another one; however, this gave the USSR time to build a J-Bomb of > its own, so the "Balance of Power" is not solved, but just > continues forever. With the ability to create and destroy matter at will, it is doubtful that the J-machine is relying on an external power supply. More likely there would be equipment breakdown resulting in a shutdown of the machine. Maintaining an tiny Artificial Black Hole would have it's toll on any equipment, and I saw no mention of robots capable of performing maintenance. Sean Casey -- UUCP: {hasmed,cbosgd}!ukma!sean or ucbvax!anlams!ukma!sean ARPA: ukma!sean<@ANL-MCS> or sean%ukma.uucp@anl-mcs.arpa ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!mercury@topaz.arpa (Larry E. Baker) Subject: re:James P. Hogan's Genesis Machine Date: 3 May 85 18:58:18 GMT > 2)The Machine had an internal power source that would give it > just enough "juice" to explode the capitals of the U.S. and Russia > if outside power were to be cut. And the Machine was in a bunker > that was "safe" from being bombed(the Machine would not be damaged > enough to keep it from exploding a city or two). Also if the > machine detected anyone trying to force their way into its > innards, another Kablooie!!! Naaah. The Government had full access to the insides of the machine; they had to keep it completely maintained or, if there were too many failures, the thing would assume that it was being systemticlly deactivated and start vaporizing cities. Also, the offensive use of the machine was limited to an area within defined boundaries, but they could still use it, albeit in a limited area. It seems to me that a small thermonuclear warhead placed judiciously within the machine itself would have shut it down effectivey. Larry Baker @ The University of Texas at Austin {seismo!ut-sally | decvax!allegra | tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: TROUBLE WITH LICHEN Date: 3 May 85 16:44:23 GMT TROUBLE WITH LICHEN by John Wyndham A book review by Mark R. Leeper Last August I review WEB, supposedly a John Wyndham that had not been published before. My suspicion was that it was not a John Wyndham novel--it was only published under that name. No, I'm not suggesting it was ghost- written. I am sure it was written by the same man who wrote great books like THE DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS, but I am not sure he intended WEB to by written by John Wyndham. Huh? Well, John Beynon Harris was a long-time science fiction writer in Britain. His full name in print is long enough to wrap around your waist. He wrote a lot of mediocre science fiction under a number of pen names, all of which were substrings of his real name. His best material somehow always came out under the name "John Wyndham," and people began to realize that the John Wyndham novels were pretty good. Harris died in the late Sixties and WEB was never published until recently, it appears. Then the publishers picked Harris's most bankable pseudonym. In any case, as I was reading WEB I was feeling pleased that here was a John Wyndham that I'd never read. Then it occurred to me that there were a handful of genuine John Wyndham novels I'd never read; most seemed like juveniles, but then there was TROUBLE WITH LICHEN. Harris wrote it late in his career and it is really not too bad. In some ways it is very much like the Alec Guinness comedy THE MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT. The plot concerns a strong-willed young woman who gets a job at a research establishment and through an accident discovers a lichen derivative that very much slows down the aging process. Users will live varying amounts depending on dosage and when usage begins, but usually about 200 years. The woman goes into business for herself developing the drug, and the head of the research establishment independently develops the drug, neither knowing that the other knows the power of the drug. The woman, to get around the law, opens a beauty products business and secretly gives the drug treatments to wives of prominent government dignitaries. There is an interesting legal problem in that she very openly tells her customers, "Our products will keep you younger longer." Can she be blamed for telling the truth when lying hype is expected? Antigerone cannot be made totally public because there is only enough lichen in the world to treat a few thousand people. Announcing the drug would assure that just the wrong people get it. Further, the social impact of the drug would be incredible. Well, the news does leak out eventually, and the world goes into chaos. Morticians and socialists, for different, demand that the drug be banned. So do certain church groups. If all this seems a little unlikely, think of the real life social uproar a few years after this was written when a pill to prevent pregnancy was invented. I cannot claim that this is a particularly well-written novel, or that I believe the nature of the uproar caused, but the magnitude of the chaos is more than the reader expects, but probably less than would actually occur. Reading it, I was thinking it was really lesser Wyndham, but thinking about it afterwards, that is still pretty good. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Apr 85 03:03:14 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: "MUgwump 9" The story that Laurence Brothers mentioned, wherein the hero gets caught in the midst of a cabal of sinister midgets by dialing a MUgwump number instead of a MUrray Hill number, is actually by Robert Silverberg. (The title is indeed "Mugwump 9" as above). Rather than let him loose to spoil their plans to take over the world and kill all tall people, the midgets just send him back in time to the point just before he made the call, thus trapping him in a time loop. --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 May 85 12:31 pdt From: "pugh jon%c.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Another "Does anyone remember?" I read this great short story in an anthology of the large hardback variety way back in high school and have been unable to relocate it. Perhaps you can help by reminding me and let someone else read it who hasn't. The hero and his ship are hurtling downward on an uncharted planet (of course) after taking a hit in battle. (This must narrow it down to at least a third of infinity!) On the planet are giant creatures engaged in the common creature pasttime, sex. However, our hero, and his ship, are about the size of a single sperm cell. Now, evolution takes a wild turn with Mom guarding her egg by shooting down every sperm she can. She mistakes our hero for a sperm but he manages to avoid being hit by using his computer. Nevertheless, he hurtles into the egg where he is merged into a new critter with the ship built in. And that's all I remember. Does this ring any bells? I want to read it again, but I have trouble finding the proper anthologies anywhere. It was like the _Norton Antho of SF_ or some such nonsense. If you reply to me, I'll cull the duplicates and inform the net afterwards. Thank you. -- Jon Pugh -- pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ From: vijay@ucbvax.ARPA (Vijay Ramamoorthy) Subject: Any news on Alien II or Sword & Sorcerer? Date: 4 May 85 04:40:12 GMT Two movies I particularly enjoyed were Alien and The Sword and the Sorcerer. I heard that another Alien was in the works, but not much more. As for the TSATS, sometime during the end credits it was mentioned that Talon would return in a new movie. Anyone else heard anything more? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 85 1027-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #152 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 152 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Zelazny (3 msgs) & Pittsburgh SF Story & A Book Request & Stories Set on Mars, Films - Defcon 4 & Zelazny Movies, Television - Starlost , Miscellaneous - British Names & Criticizing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 May 85 07:57 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Asimov's plans? I read _Foundation's Edge_ and _The Robots of Dawn_ and I would like to do some predictions of what I think is to come from Dr A. **** Spoiler Warning **** In both these books, and the short _Liar_, Isaac introduced telepathic robots, with differing results. Lenny was the first such robot, and as such was doomed to failure, as most prototypes are (you should see our new Cray!). In _Robots_ they worked much better and had gotten very subtle, a dangerous and/or necessary trait that allows them much more versatility. Would robots be really useful if they couldn't make decisions on their own? I think they would need to ask every 20 nanos or so if they weren't capable of deciding on a course of action and following it. In _Edge_ the robots finished the ultra-subtle problem of ETs. They zapped time around so that there weren't any ETs, just humans. After all, that is the safest way for humans to live. I doubt any aliens could stand to live in the same universe as us, regardless of whether we could handle it. I mean really, we don't even like each other. So anyhow, the robots have been subtly controlling us, even to the point of playing with the fabric of space/time. What is missing? The book in which they do zap the old path of time, of course. I think Isaac has his next project going. We'll see. If he doesn't, perhaps we can persuade him. Send those cards and letters. By the way, does anybody know if Dr A really uses a Trash 80? -- Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Unicorn Variations: collection, Roger Zelazny, 1983 Date: 3 May 85 18:19:16 GMT > If I need to spell out to you that there isn't a single bad > story in the bunch, and that I recommend the book, you may not be > observant enough to enjoy it. Pity. > -Paul S. R. Chisholm It comes as no surprise that I agree with you. I would also like to point out, however, that in between the stories he makes comments on writing, and what he learned, and how to do it, etc. This is also true of his previous collection, THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMALOT. For anyone with an interest in writing, fiction writing in particular, these two books are a must. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 May 85 12:46 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Zelazny -- Trumps of Doom The Trumps od Doom is out! Hardback for $15! The story centers around Merlin, the son or Corwin and Dara (one of the Nobles of the Court of Chaos). As usual, there is trouble with at least several forces trying to kill Merlin (and others). This is the first book in a trilogy about Merlin. The story starts with danger and unexplained occurrences. You expect things to be explained as the story progresses, but things keep getting more and more complex. So as not to spoil the book, let me just say, I hope the next book is out soon! John R. Mellby (214)952-2139 Texas Instruments, Dallas JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Zelazny -- Trumps of Doom Date: 6 May 85 15:40:00 GMT > From: John_Mellby > The Trumps od Doom is out! Hardback for $15! > > John R. Mellby (214)952-2139 Hot damn! (And hello, John; remember me?) I had the pleasure of speaking with Mr. Zelazny just after he had sent that one off to the publisher. I asked him, "Are you happy with it?" He chuckled evily and said, "Well, people who don't like cliff-hangers are going to be mad at me." I can't wait! -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Pittsburgh Sci Fi Story Date: 2 May 85 18:07:19 GMT > About 15 years ago, I remember reading a SciFi story which > took place in the East Liberty neighborhood of Pittsburgh > specifically around the East Liberty Police Station. I don't > remember any of the plot. > > I was living in the area at the time as a student at CMU. > > It was a short story not a novel. > > Does anyone remember the author or title of the work? -- > Mark C. DiVecchio K3FWT The story you have described is "The Circuit Riders" by R. C. FitzPatrick from Analog. It is in the collection "Analog 2" edited by John W. Campbell. The second printing of the Paperback Library edition I have was printed August, 1971, which is approx. the time you mentioned. Joel Upchurch ------------------------------ From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady) Subject: YABT (Yet Another Book Title) Date: 5 May 85 08:45:37 GMT Mankind (slight future) has a disease in which we perceive time as flowing the wrong way. We got this mind illness just a generation or two ago (ie about 50 years in the future)... When viewed from the correct perspective, life seems very different: Matter coalesces from nothing into a human being, and slowly goes through a cycle, from needing to be taken care of, to being fully dependent, to being dependent again, to finally finishing your life by giving nourishment to your mother.. Universe is similarly optimistically oriented: from heat comes order, meaning, all coalescing, until finally coming together in a huge mass of brilliance and energy. None of this depressing entropy stuff... The most interesting thing I remember is that for a couple days after I could perceive the world in this time-reversed form as well as our standard way... I'd like to read this book again -- any help would be appreciated. Steven Grady (...ucbvax!ucbdali!grady; grady@ucbdali.Berkeley) ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Stories set on Mars? Date: 6 May 85 05:52:44 GMT Here's something a bit different. I'm looking for stories set on Mars. I'm aware of many of the more famous stories such as Barsoom and Martian Chronicles, of course, but drop me a note with your favorite Mar's stories. Please use mail, not news, and I'll post a followup on this if interest warrants. :From the offices of Pagans for Cthulhu: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: DEFCON 4 Date: 3 May 85 16:43:25 GMT DEFCON 4 A film review by Mark R. Leeper There is a certain genius to making low-budget films to compete with high-budget films. DEFCON 4 has a nuclear war, satellite warfare, flying missiles, and a post-holocaust battle for survival, all on a pocket change budget. In the first half of the film, the producers almost make the story work in spite of its budget. In the second half, the film bogs down into a rather cliched story of good guys trying to escape from the bad guys' encampment. In the Fifties, cheap films wanting to show nuclear blasts used government footage. The same nuclear blasts would show up time and again in films. DEFCON 4 has the entire nuclear war watched from a satellite and computer graphics provide the visuals. Just when the story starts to drag our heroes are pulled out of orbit and into a battle against some soldiers setting up their own dictatorship. The feudal society is shown at first with some wit--sort of a ROAD WARRIOR meets PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO--but the story quickly degenerates to one of good guys trying to escape the clutches of bad guys. In the first half the wit and the tedium run neck and neck; in the second half the tedium pulls out in front. then it really starts to bore. Because the post-holocaust world is shown with so little regard for scientific accuracy and because so much of the film is cliched, this one rates a -1 on a scale of -4 to +4. The few good moments don't outweigh the many bad ones. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Zelazny movies? Date: 4 May 85 03:38:44 GMT > In 'Jack Of Shadows' (Roger Zelazny) the author description page > noted that out of his 26 books one has been made into a movie and > another has been sold to be made into a movie. Does anyone know > anything about either of these? > Brad Brilliant I'm a week behind on reading SF-LOVERS, so if someone posted a response to this already, please forgive the redundancy... Unfortunately, Zelazny's "Damnation Alley" was made into a movie starring George Pappard and Jean-Michael Vincent... ...It was a rather silly rendition (in my opinion) that was originally to be slated as "Survival Run," but at the last moment the producers decided that "Damnation Alley" wasn't that bad of a title after all... Anyway, the movie took rather large liberties with the book (which I enjoyed, if someone wants to gauge my opinion of the movie based on that :-) ) and added alot of goofy SFX and and neat truck.... ...the movie was, however, not a waste of time and fairly enjoyable... not, I assume, for the reasons that the producers intended, but rather for reasons that we all enjoy Godzilla movies...For instance, we get to here George Peppard say wonderful things like: "Look Out! They're 'Killer Cockroaches' Repeat: 'Killer Cockroaches'!!!!" without so much as cracking a smile.... --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 85 00:07 EDT From: Barry Margolin Subject: Re: Starlost reruns To: uwmacc!demillo@TOPAZ.ARPA (Rob DeMillo) As far as I know, Starlost is not being rerun anywhere. My message was a response to someone's question last week about whether it was being rerun. Since my response about the tv-movie version was the only response, it's probably safe to assume that it isn't being rerun. It certainly isn't being shown on any of the stations on my cable TV, which includes WOR (New Jersey) and WTBS (is this what you meant by WTBS?). It seems unlikely that they would bother syndicating a 16-episode series that was not very popular in the first place. barmar ------------------------------ From: ukc!csw@topaz.arpa (C.S.Welch) Subject: Re: More on the name of Piers Anthony Date: 9 May 85 18:08:26 GMT Appropos of nothing, I had a flatmate by the name of Piers Anthony Fenn Letcher when I was at university.(I'm British by the way, and so was he) Apart from indicating that we in the U.K. have a penchant for strange names, I agree that it is rather strange that this combination of christian names is cropping up. Since this flatmate of mine was an ex public (i.e. private in the U.S.) school boy by it may well indicate, shall we say, an "upper class" connection. I shall look into it... Chris Welch (csw@ukc) ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics Date: 05 May 85 02:00:45 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne > After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to >say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies. > > WIZARDS: Generally poor > LORD OF THE RINGS: Awful > 2010: Fair, but criticized heavily on details > SILENT RUNNING: Some support, but mostly criticized > for lack of a 'realistic' plot & ending > STAR WARS: Not taken seriously > DUNE: Horrible adaptation (I might even agree here) > And so on... > > My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not putting >its heart and soul into SF. . . . > Comments, anyone? > -- jd I certainly agree that a much more even handed manner of criticism would be very welcome. At present my impression is that people who are upset or who have axes to grind are much more likely to send to the net than people who are pleased or satisfied. This hardly seems fair to whatever (and particularly, whomever) is being criticized. If somebody has done something well, s/he should be made aware of it. It's more than just a matter of praise for a job well done (though that alone is an adequate reason); how likely is it that the good practices will be continued if nobody points out that they are good? If, for instance, you want gorgeous music in the soundtrack, make your praise for the movies that have it known. Don't simply assume "it's all right, they know it's good". Look at how Spielberg, who is no fool in producing popular movies, misunderstood the appeal of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" when he made "Temple of Doom". Other things contribute to heavy criticism, too. There is a certain unintended intimidation in biting criticism that makes people who were about to offer praise withhold it, perhaps for fear of looking foolish, credulous, or undiscriminating. How many people are going to admire publicly the realization of the sandworms (for example) in "Dune", when the movie has been taken to pieces for its editing, its failure to do what, for a movie, is nearly impossible (show all the subplots of the book), and its altered ending? There is also the tendency in people, when presented with a list of critical opinions, "...by swift agreement to seem wise themselves" (as Tolkien put it in describing Saruman's spell over his listeners). When shown a weight of negative opinion, people who are not yet certain of their own feelings, or whose feelings are not terribly strong, tend to be swayed to the negative ("so many people seem to dislike it, I guess I see their point"). Further, I find it curious how a single small irritant can become a focus of dislike, to which critics gravitate (pardon the mixing of metaphors). Witness the "pen scene" in 2010: it had no impact on the course of the story, lasted for barely a few seconds, and was not wildly inaccurate. Yet complaints about it cropped up over and over again, giving the impression that 2010 was a rather seriously inaccurate film. Will you allow me one more opinion? The net is widespread, and there must be many potential contributors to the bboard. Suppose one of them, in a review, notes a flaw about which almost everybody agrees. If all those potential contributors then, briefly, become actual contributors to say something like "you know, I noticed that too", suddenly there is a mass of criticism of the same point on the board. Suppose, instead, one of the first reviews of 2010 had remarked how beautifully the Discovery's rotation was done, and how splendid the night side of Jupiter looked. If 20 agreements had followed that, they would have looked like rave reviews for the film. The conclusion of all this? I suspect the strongly negative appearance of much of the criticism is often not to be taken at face value, being rather the result of coincidence and the nature of people. What can be done to give a more balanced appearance? Perhaps more care in what the critics say; remembering that praise of the good is as necessary as criticism of the poor; and not permitting a predominance of adverse opinion to subvert good opinion. Even genuine stinkers often have something worthwhile in them, and it should be pointed out. Well, that's more than enough philosophy for me, for now. Other comments? Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 85 1044-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #153 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 153 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Cameron & MacAvoy & Great Sf Stories of 1939, Television - Starlost, Miscellaneous - SF Bookstores in London ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gitpyr!roy@topaz.arpa (Roy J. Mongiovi) Subject: Steven Brust: To Reign in Hell, et al Date: 3 May 85 15:12:59 GMT So what was so great about "To Reign in Hell"? Except for the names, it could have been a misunderstanding among a bunch of Old Jewish Grandfathers. I mean, Yahweh is just sooooo incredibly stupid I just couldn't see the point of the novel - "Oh, I'll just sit here and imagine that my best friend has turned against me, no need to bother with going out and trying to meet him myself and clear the problem up...." Gimme a break. Or was the whole point of the novel that Yahweh is a Cosmic Muffin that Brust isn't too fond of? Don't get me wrong, I liked Jhereg, and I loved Yendi. I mean, if you want to talk about books that grab you from the first page, I'm absolutely wild about his onion paradigm of life. After that I couldn't put the book down. And I also think that "God Slayer" is an absolutely awesome name for a sword (I hope to encounter it again in the remaining books in the series). On a slightly different topic, does anyone have any suggestions for good recent science fiction? Recently all the new books have been fantasy, or at most science fantasy. Even Niven's "Integral Trees" was pretty innocuous, although enjoyable. Maybe I have to wait for that long promised sequel to "The Mote in God's Eye." Roy J. Mongiovi. Office of Computing Services. User Services. Georgia Institute of Technology. Atlanta GA 30332. (404) 894-6163 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Why Beelzebub speaks old English Date: 6 May 85 15:03:57 GMT > From: Rich Zellich > Personally, I assumed it was just so the author could use the > "Milord, get thee..." line (I'm trying not to introduce a spoiler > here). How 'bout it SKZB? Care to enlighten us (I'd have asked > you at Minicon, but I had just purchased the book and didn't read > it until 2 days later)? I wondered if anyone would think that, but no. That line was added at the last possible minute, right before the ms was turned over to the printer. I same to have a habit of doing that. The first line in YENDI about the newt was put in at the beginning, but the second reference to it, toward the end of the book, was called in to Terri Windling just before the book went into page proofs. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 May 1985 14:18:25 EDT From: AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: More on the Mushroom Planet The 'Mushroom Planet' books were written by Eleanor Estes Cameron, who also wrote "The Shy Stegosaurus of Cricket Creek," another very good kid's book. Mr. Bass' name, as I recall, is supposedly short for his actual name on the Mushroom Planet, which was "Basidiomycetes", a species of mushroom. All of Cameron's books were quite good -- I remember reading them several times over as a kid. ------------------------------ Subject: DAMIANO and successors Date: 07 May 85 01:19:52 PDT (Tue) From: Alastair Milne If you liked "Damiano", be sure to read the rest of the trilogy (seems inevitable these days, doesn't it?): "Damiano's Lute", and "Raphael". In going through them, and especially after looking back at "Damiano" again, my impression is that MacAvoy gains security in her conception of Damiano and his world, and the hightened security allows her writing to flow more freely and smoothly. The beauty that she paints in "Damiano" grows greater through the next two. "Raphael" is, to my mind, the greatest of the three, a culmination. I could hardly put it down. Try them! Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: GREAT SF STORIES (1939) Date: 3 May 85 16:44:01 GMT THE GREAT SF STORIES: 1 (1939) edited by Isaac Asimov and Martin Greenberg DAW, $1.95, 1979. A book review by Mark R. Leeper There are several best-science-fiction-of-the-year anthologies these days. I think they may have been inspired by the success of the annual Judith Merril anthologies that were popular when I was first reading science fiction. Every year the Merril anthology could be counted on to be the best stories. Later, Merril started picking too many "New Wave" stories and I started to lose interest. However, picking up where she left off, Donald Wollheim and Terry Carr started co-operating on year's best anthologies for Ace Books. Later, they split up and each individually edited a year's best anthology, competing with the other. A number of other editors tried to get into the same act including Forrest J. Ackerman. These days, I am not sure there even is a year's best anthology edited--at least it has been a while. Back in 1979 Isaac Asimov and/or Martin Greenberg apparently realized that there were no year's best anthologies for the years prior to Merril's first year's best. (Actually, that is not, strictly speaking, correct. I believe that Dikty may have edited some minor year's best anthologies in the early Fifties, but they were hardbacks and did not have a wide circulation.) They started co-editing year's best anthologies for the years they really enjoyed reading science fiction. Asimov (without Greenberg) edited a catch-all anthology, BEFORE THE GOLDEN AGE, to cover the science fiction written before 1939. Then every few months they edited a year's best anthology for 1939, 1940, etc., up through 1950 or so. They may not be finished yet. I will discuss here the 1939 anthology. My first comment is that most of the introductions are by Greenberg, with little parenthetic comments by Asimov. It leads me to believe that Asimov does not have much of a hand in these anthologies in spite of having "Isaac Asimov Presents" plastered all over the cover. This is a good anthology. The stories are more idea stories and less writing exercises than many more current. Most of the stories express a scientific idea. Some develop it slowly; some give it to you with a big punch ending--what Dale Skran calls a "tomato surprise" story. Actually, I think a lot of surprise ending stories. Tomato surprise is a good way to slam-dunk an idea to the reader. If an idea is presented anywhere else in a story, the reader can sit back and let the author handle the idea in the rest of the story. A surprise ending tells the reader, "The idea is in your court; you have to bat it around." The stories in this anthology give a real sense of chronology to the period in which they were written. They are in chronological order and before each we are told the magazine and the month when the story appeared. "I, Robot" by Eando Binder: This story will be familiar to people who have seen the OUTER LIMITS adaptation or who have read very similar stories by Asimov himself. Not a really well-written story, but a striking departure at the time. "The Strange Flight of Richard Clayton" by Robert Bloch: Not the best of Bloch, but it would have made an okay TWILIGHT ZONE episode. "Cloak of Aesir" by John W. Campbell: This is a fondly remembered story by the great author/editor. I never read it until recently. This is a gut-wrenchingly bad story. The writing comes off more as a lesson of what should not be done in writing a science fiction story. This one was real tedium to read. I guess somebody editing felt they owed a debt to Campbell. Avoid it. "The Day Is Done" by Lester Del Rey: This one makes up for "Cloak of Aesir." I have read all the short stories and novelettes nominated for the last two Hugos. This story of a Neanderthal living among Cro-Magnons is better than any piece of short fiction nominated for a Hugo for a good long time. I'd call it historical (or prehistorical) fiction rather than science fiction, but it is a very fine piece of story-telling. "The Ultimate Catalyst" by John Taine: Taine--really Eric Temple Bell-can be a good writer, but this is more of a weak horror story memorable only for a number of rather grotesque images. "The Gnarly Man" by L. Sprague de Camp: This suffers by comparison to "The Day Is Done." It is a more light-hearted look at a Neanderthal, but this one is immortal and making a living as a side-show freak. He reminisces about history only slightly more seriously than Mel Brooks's 2000-year-old man. "Black Destroyer" by A. E. Van Vogt: This is good science fiction of the ilk of the film ALIEN. Coeurl is one of the better hostile alien creatures I can remember. He has a battle for survival with some passing earthmen. This story is part of VOYAGE OF THE SPACE BEAGLE, just about the most monster-menaced voyage since THE ODYSSEY. "Greater Than Gods" by C. L. Moore: Whether you are pro-feminist or anti-feminist or something in between, this story will stick in your craw. A scientist has developed a means of choosing the sex of a child before it is born. At the same time, he is trying to decide whom he should marry and is able to see a different nightmare future which would come out of each possible marriage. Not so hot. "Trends" by Isaac Asimov: Recent history makes Asimov's third published story more prophetic than it deserves to be. It is the story of a man trying to invent the spaceship in spite of the American public being galvanized against him by an evangelistic preacher. "The Misguided Halo" by Henry Kuttner: This is pure fantasy concerning a man who was accidentally given a halo by an incompetent angel. The story concerns the man's attempts to rid himself of the distinction. The story doesn't really go anywhere; it creates a problem but doesn't solve it. "Heavy Planet" by Milton Rothman: This has a number of well-written scenes, but it does not really go anywhere as a story. It just seems that the author ended it when he was tired of writing, much like the previous story. The title concerns an alien who finds a derelict human spaceship and wants its secrets for his people. "Lifeline" by Robert Heinlein: This is a good story, but it is merely a re-telling of an old idea. The question it asks is, if we really could know the date of our death, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Of course, whenever the story is told, it turns out to cause untold misery to the person who finds out. It seems particularly inappropriate in science fiction, since much more in science fiction than in fantasy the reader is likely to ask, if a person has been given a death date 20 years off, what happens if you put him in fatal circumstances now? Try dropping a piano on him. What happens? Still, it is not a bad treatment of the story. "Ether Breather" by Theodore Sturgeon: This story is an odd combination of being near- and far-sighted. In 1939, it was predicting for 200 years in the future competing television networks and the society is just getting around to color TV and taping. His TV networks are much like those of early television some twelve years later. On top of that he puts a whimsical story of signal tampering. Sturgeon might have thought that that was the main thrust of his story, but the background was far more interesting. "Pilgrimage" by Nelson Bond: This is a well-written if unlikely story of a far future savage America following a literal "war of the sexes." It is the first of three stories Bond wrote about Meg the Priestess. This is the story of how Meg became a priestess and discovered the guarded secret of the priestesses. "Rust" by Joseph E. Kellean: Earlier we had a story about television and here is a story about robots. These were both concepts that much of the public learned about for the first time at the 1939 World's Fair. I think it was no coincidence that these stories show up published not long after the summer of 1939. "Rust" is the earliest story on the "Berserker" concept that I can remember seeing. It is about war robots who couldn't be turned off and ended up killing all men. As the title suggests, they too have their problems. This is a well-written story and a little sad. "Four-Sided Triangle" by William F. Temple: This is a famous story and was even the subject of a film. Two scientists who have developed a matter duplicator are both in love with the same woman, but she loves only one. You can work the rest of the story out for yourself. This is a reasonably good story, if predictable. "Star Bright" by Jack Williamson: The plot of this story is by now something of a cliche. A man is given a miraculous power and it turns out to be more of a curse than a blessing. It's the kind of thing that showed up all the time on THE TWILIGHT ZONE. There is even a reference in the story to a similar story in the film THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES. It is bland fantasy. "Misfit" by Robert Heinlein: This is reasonable space ranger stuff, notable mostly for its optimism about the great adventure that is space. This story makes the point that someone who doesn't fit in at home can still be a valuable man in space. In this case, an Earth misfit in trouble with the law turns out to be a human computer. Right. Well, they aren't all winners, but this book shows that a lot of pulp science fiction was still worth reading. Look up "The Day Is Done" by Del Rey some time. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 85 00:00 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: More "Starlost" info For those of you who may be interested in delving further into the somewhat sordid history of _The Starlost_, the following may be of use: _Phoenix without Ashes_, by Edward Bryant and Harlan Ellison. Bryant took Ellison's original plot script for _The Starlost_ (apparently very different than the version actually shot) and turned it into a full-length novel. Included is Ellison's 30-page telling of how the powers-that-be scrod him and the show. Note that the original script was awarded "Most Outstanding Film/TV Screenplay" by the Writers' Guild of America (Ellison's third such award). This may be out of print today; the edition I have is Fawcett M3188, dated February 1975. Worth digging up at your favorite used-paperback store. _The Starcrossed_, by Ben Bova. A lightly-fictionalized retelling of the whole mess, involving 3D television, Vitaform Process bodies, pink perfumed smog, a hockey-star lead actor who speaks only Neanderthal, The Mob, and panic flights to Ulan Bator. Ron Gabriel, iconoclast / romantic storywriter, nicely fills the shoes of The Small but Mighty God of Thunder ("May Elcin strike you in the kneecap!"). Pyramid A4105, dated 12/76. I'm fairly sure this is currently in print; I think I noticed a copy out of the corner of my eye in A Change of Hobbit (Santa Monica CA) last week. Definitely worth a read for the laughs, even if you're not a _Starlost_ fan [Ellison writes in _Phoenix..._, "Friends call me when they see _The Starlost_ (which still has some small syndication in outlying areas), and they tell me how much they like it. I snarl and hang up on them."]. ------------------------------ From: ewok@ucbvax.ARPA (Lisa Rodgin) Subject: SF Bookstores in London Date: 5 May 85 17:51:35 GMT I am looking for addresses of bookstores (especially those which concentrate on sf/fantasy) in London. If you have a favourite bookstore, please send its address to me.... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 May 85 1059-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #154 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 7 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 154 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 5 May 85 00:38:33-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 10 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is seeking Trufandom.] Chapter Ten In which Jophan comes to the City. It was now obvious that the hucksters' settlement had been merely the outskirts of the great city. The towers and spires which Jophan had seen that morning now loomed directly ahead, and the green fields had completely disappeared behind a great wall of hoardings. Shortly these in turn gave place to a region of barracks-like buildings, each backed by stretches of bare concrete and separated from one another by barbed wire. As Jophan entered this district a great number of people came running out of the buildings to welcome him, pressing gifts into his hands, clapping him on the back and offering him hospitality. Meanwhile, others shouted greetings from the windows of the buildings and showered him with pieces of paper in such profusion that Jophan could scarce see his way in front of him. He caught one of the pieces as it fell and saw that the message emblazoned across it was the same as that which was being shouted by most of the people around him. "WELCOME TO TRUFANDOM," it proclaimed. Jophan turned it over and found that the other side consisted of an advertisement for a club for fans, which was evidently what these buildings were. Curious, he turned his steps towards the nearest one. At once a huge howl of rage arose from the representatives of other clubs, and they shouted at him and plucked at his garment in an attempt to divert his footsteps. However, reinforcements quickly arrived from the club in whose direction he was proceeding and he was hustled inside. There his new friends welcomed him effusively and asked him his name. "My name is Jophan," said Jophan, "and I am on my way to Trufandom to obtain the Enchanted Duplicator and produce the Perfect Fanzine." They looked horrified. "Do you mean," asked one of them, "that you were actually going to attempt that journey *by* *yourself*?" "Yes," said Jophan diffidently. "But my poor fellow," said the other, "that is quite impossible. You must, absolutely must belong to a club before you can ever think about such an undertaking. Here we will train you for the journey, outfit you with all the necessary equipment, and in time send you out as part of a properly organized expedition. *That* is the way to go about such things," he added proudly. "How long will that take?" asked Jophan. "Training is going on this very moment in the exercise yard," said the other impressively. "But first let me show you the benefits our club has to offer you." He smiled kindly to Jophan and turned to speak to one of the other club members. Jophan could not hear what the latter said, but he saw him shake his head and point to another member. He in turn pointed to yet another with a great deal of muttering and whispering, and soon they were all arguing bitterly among themselves. Every now and then one of them would stamp angrily out of the room, slamming the door behind him, but another always seemed to come in to take his place. This went on for a long time, and they seemed to have forgotten all about Jophan. He rose from his seat, tiptoed quietly out of the other door of the room, and found himself in the exercise yard. Marching up and down the yard was a line of several dozen Neofen, under the supervision of a drill instructor. When they came to the barbed wire fence at one side the instructor would shout, "About face," and they would turn round and march to the other side of the yard, were the process was repeated. Jophan watched for a considerable time, but this seemed to form the sole activity. At length one of the Neofen fell out of line and walked tiredly over to Jophan. "One gets a little tired of it at times," he said rather shamefacedly. "I thought you were quite right," said Jophan. "I never saw anything so pointless in all my life." "Oh, I wouldn't say that," replied the Neofan defensively. "You see, there's to be an election shortly, and then it'll be the turn of one of *us* to give the orders. Why, it might be *me*," he added eagerly. "But how will all this help you get to Trufandom?" asked Jophan. "Trufandom?" said the other, astonished. "Why, *this* is Trufandom! ...Isn't it?" "It is not," said Jophan firmly, and proceeded to impart to the Neofan something of the glory of the vision he had experienced from the touch of the wand called Fanac. The Neofan passed his hand dazedly across his forehead. "Yes..." he said, "I do remember something like that. But I've been here so long I'd quite forgotten it." "Leave all this marching up and down," urged Jophan. "It will never get you anywhere. Come with me to Trufandom." "I'm not sure I'm strong enough yet for such a journey," said the Neofan hesitantly. "Maybe I had better let the club help me." "No," said Jophan. "I am only a Neofan, but I know this: that the journey to Trufandom is one which must be accomplished by a Fan's unaided efforts. "But," pleaded the Neofan, "couldn't you wait until after this election...or maybe the one after it?" "No," said Jophan firmly. "I must be on my way." He waited for a moment to see if the Neofan would change his mind, and then left him reluctantly. He slipped back into the building, through the room where the organizers were still arguing, and back into the streets, still unnoticed. Then, brushing aside the crowd of well-meaning organizers and welcomers with a friendly but firm arm, he continued on his was to the center of the city. The buildings now began to take on a more and more elegant appearance, and became ever higher and more imposing. The streets became broader and more smoothly paved. At each intersection the vistas were more and more beautiful and awe-inspiring, until at last he reached the center of the city. Jophan knew this was the center of the city for the simple reason that his instinct told him that there could not be anything more beautiful still in store. He found himself in a broad, gleaming thoroughfare, beautifully paved. On either side there towered shining marble skyscrapers, their pinnacles plunging into the very heavens. It was all so wonderful that Jophan could do nothing but stand there motionless, breathless with admiration. This, he thought to himself, must be Trufandom. True, it was not as the Fairy had led him to expect, but he could not imagine that anything more wonderful could exist. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ Date: Sun 5 May 85 00:39:11-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 11 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is in search of Trufandom.] Chapter Eleven In which Jophan learns the Truth about the City. As he stood at the entrance to the great avenue, still transfixed with awe, a dapper, bespectacled young man came up to him. He eyed Jophan's tattered garments somewhat askance, but spoke to him civilly enough. "Good day," he said. "Might I enquire your name?" "My name is Jophan," said Jophan humbly, "and I am on my way to Trufandom..." "You need go no further," said the young man. "Perhaps you would like me to show you around the city. My name is Dedwood," he added proudly, "and I am one of the City Planners. I am a Serious Construction Engineer by profession." Taking Jophan's arm, he led him along the street, pointing out one great building after another. Before they had reached the end of the avenue Jophan was, if possible, even more overcome with admiration, but he began to feel out of place in all this elegance with his dirty clothes and tarnished Shield. As Dedwood was pointing out yet another imposing building he took the opportunity to give the Shield a surreptitious rub with his handkerchief. "This," Dedwood was saying, "is the Federation Building ---" He broke off in alarm as a strangled sound came from his listener. In wiping his Shield Jophan had caught a glimpse of the reflection of the building on its surface, and he had been unable to suppress a cry of astonishment. Reflected in the Shield was not the imposing edifice of the Federation Building, but a ramshackle affair, in visible danger of falling into the street. Seen in the mirror of the Shield, the building was not even soundly constructed, but disfigured by cracks and faulty workmanship. Even so, Jophan would have been half inclined to dismiss the reflection as the result of a distortion on the Shield's surface, had not the thought suddenly occurred to him that not once had he been allowed to see inside one of the buildings. Before Dedwood could stop him, Jophan darted through the door of the Federation Building. As he had by now half-suspected, it was not a building at all, but a mere facade. Although it reached high in the air, it was but a few inches thick and obviously unstable. Even as Jophan watched a little gust of wind produced several dangerous-looking cracks in the flimsy structure. At the splintering sound, two harassed Neofen appeared, pushing a tall scaffolding before them on wheels. Stopping close to the wall, they clambered up and hastily filled the cracks with cement. Then they pushed the scaffolding along to the next danger point, working more and more feverishly as the cracks seemed to grow in number more rapidly than they could be repaired. Jophan tore his eyes away from this depressing sight, and went outside again. Dedwood was still standing on the sidewalk, but he now had an almost guilty expression on his face. Jophan faced him accusingly. "What is the idea of all this?" he demanded brusquely, annoyed at having been taken in by such a senseless deception. "Well, you see," said Dedwood awkwardly, "it's to impress the Public. They wouldn't be impressed by Trufandom, so some of us thought we'd erect this city of Serious Constructivism to give them a better idea of our importance." "But surely the Public never come into Fandom?" protested Jophan. "Well, no," admitted Dedwood, "but they sometimes send a representative in, usually a Mr. Press." He seemed to be having difficulty meeting Jophan's gaze, and the reflection from Jophan's Shield of Umor seemed to be hurting his eyes, so that while he was talking he glanced sideways up and down the street. Abruptly he broke off with a cry of excitement. "Why, there he is now!" he exclaimed. "This is a great day..." The rest of his words were lost as he ran helter-skelter down the street to where a little man with a notebook had appeared as if from nowhere, accompanied by another little man with an easel under his arm. Jophan followed more slowly and found Dedwood already talking volubly to the stranger, while the other little man set up his easel and began making sketches. At great length Dedwood expiated on the glories of the City, on the Magnificent Work that was being accomplished there, on the grandeur of the buildings, on the intelligence and forethought of the inhabitants, on their sobriety of deportment and the importance of their work to Humanity, on the various functions and important duties they performed, and on the contribution he himself made to these mighty achievements. Jophan noticed, however, that the little man was writing very little of all this in his notebook, and as Dedwood drew to the close of his impressive oration he sidled behind Mr. Press and looked over his shoulder. The page was perfectly blank except for one cryptic sentence which Jophan could not understand. He only knew that it bore no relationship whatever to what Dedwood had been saying. It read, simply, "Gosh-wow-boy-oh-boy!" Puzzled, Jophan moved behind the artist, who had already completed several sketches. Jophan noted that they were all recognizable caricatures of Dedwood, but that for some reason the artist had in each case shown him as wearing a peculiarly shaped headgear which incorporated a small propeller. Completely baffled by these quite extraordinary phenomena, Jophan withdrew and waited quietly until Dedwood had finished talking. Mr. Press and his assistant thanked Dedwood effusively, promised to give the Public a full and accurate report of all that he had told them, and said goodbye. Their shoulders were shaking as they walked off, but Dedwood did not seem to notice. Becoming once more conscious of Jophan's existence, he turned to him with pride. "There!" he said smugly. "I flatter myself that *this* time the Public will learn the truth about us." He seemed so pleased with himself that Jophan did not have the heart to tell him what Mr. Press had actually written in his notebook. Instead he merely thanked him for his courtesy and left the center of the city with a last glance of contempt and pity for the preposterous erections. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 May 85 1012-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #155 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 8 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 155 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Hogan & King & Scarborough & Wolfe (2 msgs) & Wyndham & 1985 Nebula Awards & A Story Request, Films - Damnation Alley & The Sword and Sorcerer, Miscellaneous - Authors in Person & The Dead and SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: GREAT SF STORIES (1939) Date: 6 May 85 14:58:47 GMT > "Lifeline" by Robert Heinlein: This is a good story, but it > is merely a re-telling of an old idea. The question it asks is, > if we really could know the date of our death, would that be a > good thing or a bad thing? Of course, whenever the story is told, > it turns out to cause untold misery to the person who finds out. > It seems particularly inappropriate in science fiction, since much > more in science fiction than in fantasy the reader is likely to > ask, if a person has been given a death date 20 years off, what > happens if you put him in fatal circumstances now? Try dropping a > piano on him. What happens? Still, it is not a bad treatment of > the story. It should be mentioned that this was Heinlein's first short story. Like many of Heinlein's stories, at the time it was written, it was NOT a "re-telling of an old idea" but rather the first time the idea was brought into Science-Fiction. Jerry can supply the date it was written. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Wed, 8 May 85 09:37:53 -0200 To: tigqc356%cunyvm.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Re: The Genesis Machine > I forget who wrote the letter I'm replying to. I did. > The Machine had an internal power source that would give it just > enough "juice" to explode the capitals of the U.S. and Russia if > outside power were to be cut. No. According to the discussion near the end of the book, the J-Bomb, if it feels its power is going to be cut off, will explode only military installations, and ONLY in the USA. This would certainly be of great benefit to the USSR (and, given enough time and the stakes involved, they can probably manage to do it). Also, this would mean that the USA would be able to cut off the power if it first moves all its major military installations to new locations (a difficult, costly undertaking, which would certainly take long enough for the USSR to build a J-Bomb of its own). Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: re: CYCLE OF THE WEREWOLF/Berni Wrightson Date: 7 May 85 08:13:15 GMT > From: "pugh jon%g.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA > I just purchased a copy of Stephen King's book, > _Cycle_of_the_Werewolf_. This is a new edition of a book that > appeared only in hardcover and it is beautiful! Berni Wrightson > did the illustrations in both color and b&w. Truly one of the > best illustrated books I have seen in years. > > If you read _National_Lampoon_ then you may have seen some of > Berni's work. He did a parody of the TV show _Bewitched_ in witch > Sam and Endora were real witches, complete with human sacrifices > and sex magic with demons. > > Berni has also done a lot of SF artwork, although his leanings are > toward the horror realm. I have a portfolio of his interpretation > of Edgar Allan Poe's works that is quite stunning, especially > _The_Cask_of_Howeveryouspellit_. Actually, while I liked some of them, I was a tad disappointed by the illos in CYCLE (the black & white ones are nice, but the color ones are a bit too garish. If you want to see some *outstanding* illustrations by Wrightson, pick up a copy of the edition of Mary Shelley's FRANKENSTEIN from Dodd, Mead (and in 8-1/2X11 trade paperback from Marvel Comics --- but it's *not* a comic book) that he illustrated. The man continues to amaze me with his talent. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: spock!willard@topaz.arpa (Bill Brickman '88 ) Subject: Elizabeth Scarborough * SEMI-SPOILER * Date: 5 May 85 02:42:02 GMT Well, thanx y'all ! I had to go and get all da info meself ! I hope someone out there in net will read this and actually try one of Liz's books. They are right along the line of the Xanth novels, and both Piers Anthony and Anne McCaffrey recommended the book (not to me of course) to the entire public. (It's on the front cover.) I thought these books were intertaining and not so super deep. Not that I don't like super deepness... Oh well... it looks like I'll have to write a ** SPOILER ** to get you interested in her books. (For you in the audience who don't want a good book ** SPOILED **, you better close your eyes now !) ****** SPOILER ****** _T_h_e _H_a_r_e_m _o_f _A_m_a_n _A_k_b_a_r This book takes place in the Far East. In ancient days... of magic and Sinbad and djinns... y'all know what I'm talking about. A woman named Rasa (the narrator) is chosen by Aman Akbar to be his wife. She is whisked away from her barbarian world (Europe presumably) and placed in the estate of Aman Akbar (by the Djinn he owns) She finds out through stealth and cunning (She is a Barbarian, after all) that Aman has been wife collecting and now has three- Rasa, Aster, and Amoilian. Then his mother plagues him to marry his cousin who is in the "care" of our villian The Emir. He , being a wife collector, decides that with the help of his djinn, he will steal her away. In the process he gets turned into an ass, which causes problems for his wives, who must turn him back into a husband they can control with their womanish wiles. Their mother-in-law comes with them, causing their lives to be filled with curses, lectures, and boredom. Until of course they find out that Aman's enemy, The (boo hiss) Emir now has the bottle of the djinn. This causes more magicial problems, as you would think. Along the way, they pick up a headcloth of a saint which allows them to speak to animals (including their husband), a quest for a lemon (for the disciple of that saint), and a magic carpet (What mid-east legend would be without one ?). They have to go though shape-changers, crocodiles, bitigers(two tigers in one), and a very angry King (of age thirteen with 23 wives). They win out in the end, as in all her books. The other of her books are all in a series (unless some of you can find somemore of her works): Song of Sorcery - a hearth witch, a minstrel, and a unicorn go on a search for the witch's half-sister in a land of gypies, dragons, and iceworms. The Unicorn Creed - The hearthwitch Maggie, her minstrel and her unicorn go on a quest for information as to why the unicorns are all dispearring Bronwyn's Bane - The hearthwitch's half sister's daughter goes on a quest to end the the curse put on her at birth (to tell only lies) and save a unmagiced land from death The Christening Quest - (Not yet out) Bronwyn's baby, who she promised to some magic merchants to stop her curse, is about to be sent to them when Bronwyn decides she wants to keep it. The quest is for the babe (I guess ?). Thanx for the attention, Willard 'n' the rats ------------------------------ Subject: New Gene Wolfe books Date: 07 May 85 10:26:04 EDT (Tue) From: obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA I spoke briefly with Gene Wolfe at Boskone. He said that he has a contract for a series of historical novels. They'll be set in Greece, Rome, Ancient Egypt, etc. He seemed quite excited about the whole thing, remarking that the one he really couldn't wait to get started on was the one set in Ancient Egypt. As a student of hieroglypics, I couldn't agree with him more. iw.i m rswt ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1985 10:30:08-EDT From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc Subject: Wolfe's next novel To: Don Seeley At Boskone I attended a panel discussion of writers discussing what books they read. Gene Wolfe said that he was currently reading research, consisting of factual information about life during the Roman Empire (and the things he mentioned dealt with the day to day lives of Roman soldiers), for his next novel. This reminds me of your comment about hearing writers speak in person. Maybe it was the panel setting and the adoring glow of fans, but Wolfe - the others on the panel too, but especially Wolfe - was perfectly charming; warm, humorous, and a marvelous raconteur. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: TROUBLE WITH LICHEN Date: 07 May 85 23:31:48 PDT (Tue) From: Alastair Milne > TROUBLE WITH LICHEN by John Wyndham > A book review by Mark R. Leeper > > I cannot claim that this is a particularly well-written >novel, or that I believe the nature of the uproar caused, but the >magnitude of the chaos is more than the reader expects, but >probably less than would actually occur. Reading it, I was >thinking it was really lesser Wyndham, but thinking about it >afterwards, that is still pretty good. > Mark R. Leeper Would you !!!PLEASE!!! put spoiler warnings on reviews like this!! You've told half the story in the review (well, half the occurrences, anyway). What you put in your review is obviously your business, but it's not fair to people who haven't read the book to expose so much of the book without warning them. Whether or not one believes it would actually happen seems irrelevant. The business of science fiction is at least as much to speculate as to predict. Some would say science fiction does much better when it speculates wildly. And personally, it does not seem to me in the least unlikely that people, and special-interest groups particularly, would react this way. Absurd behaviour is a special province of human society. As for the writing, if Wyndham doesn't appeal to you (and I see no difference between the styles of TROUBLE WITH LICHEN, MIDWICH CUCKOOS, DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS, OUT OF THE DEEPS, CHOCKY, THE CHYRSALIDS, etc. etc), by all means dig into Andre Norton. But you'll pardon me if I don't join you. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 1985 11:31:23 EDT From: AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Nebula Awards 1985 For those who were wondering, here are the winners of the 1985 Nebula Awards, which were presented on 4 May at the annual SFWA Nebula Banquet(s). Best Novel: "Neuromancer", William Gibson. Best Novella: "Press [Enter]", John Varley Best Novellette: "Blood Child", Octavia Butler Best Short Story: "Morning Child", Gardner Dozois ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Yet another story request Date: 7 May 85 22:13:58 GMT Since I have been searching for this book for some time without success, and since everyone else uses this newsgroups for such searches... I think I read this book when I was around 12. It is hard to remember. (I started reading SF at about 10, and never really read any juveniles-- started on the hard stuff.) It was, I seem to remember, an ACE double. I do not remember either the author or title. I eagerly grab any ACE double I can find to see if that is it--but so far no luck. The story concerns a space pilot in a war. He is captured and imprisoned on a far away planet in a fairly conventional cell. His captors have never had a human prisoner before. He manages to drive them fairly crazy with his wild sense of humor--for instance, he convinces them he has an invisible double who plays tricks on them. I remember his making a "radio" to talk to the double out of some wire and a block of wood--then making sure the guards find it. Finally they let him go just to get rid of him. I remember the story as hilarious--but my sense of humor may have changed in 25 years or so. Does anyone else remember this--especially the author and/or title? Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: re: Zelazny movies? Date: 7 May 85 09:17:49 GMT > From: apollo!nazgul > In 'Jack Of Shadows' (Roger Zelazny) the author description page > noted that out of his 26 books one has been made into a movie and > another has been sold to be made into a movie. Does anyone know > anything about either of these? > Brad Brilliant The first is obviously DAMNATION ALLEY, which, if you haven't seen it yet, isn't worth the effort of turning on the tv set. The second, I believe is LORD OF LIGHT. I recall reading a few years back that someone had purchased options or rights to film it, and had the whelming idea of creating an amusement park based on the sets and props and things from the film. Needless to say, the whole project went down the tubes. Probably a good thing, too. I don't think I'd trust anyone short of a Stanley Kubrick or Robert Altman to pull off LOL (and I'm not sure about them two, either). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: cvl!liang@topaz.arpa (Eli Liang) Subject: Re: Any news on Alien II or Sword & Sorcerer? Date: 8 May 85 00:35:51 GMT > Two movies I particularly enjoyed were Alien and The Sword and the > Sorcerer. I heard that another Alien was in the works, but not > much more. As for the TSATS, sometime during the end credits it > was mentioned that Talon would return in a new movie. > > Anyone else heard anything more? I share your feelings about TSATS and thought the movie was rather nice if a bit cliched. Unfortunately, I've heard that the movie wasn't well received in general and that plans for a sequel were cancelled. Too bad if true. Eli Liang University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Authors in-person Date: 6 May 85 15:30:56 GMT > From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) > Maybe most 'big' SF authors are insipid in person - I've only met > two, Asimov and Varley, and the conversation did tend to be rather > one-sided, but both seemed quite friendly. > -steve I've met Varley, and found him a thoroughly delightful man. I hadn't liked his work until I met him, but I couldn't stand liking him so much and not liking his books, so I made myself read them until I liked them. The other thing about Varley that is so nice is that he often comes complete with Anette (sp?) McKonnal (sp?), one of the most delightful individuals it has ever been my pleasure to meet. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1985 17:58 PST From: Greg Goodknight Subject: The Dead and SF How can one overlook the animation at the beginning of The Grateful Dead Movie? It starts with an astronaut plunking a quarter into a giant 3D space pinball machine. Very cosmic gameplay. Maybe some money could be pried from some of NASA's lesser projects to do a feasability study for the real thing. Greg Goodknight former Group Leader Engineer Design and Development Mattel Electronics ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 May 85 1106-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #156 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 156 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art, Books - Asimov & Brust & Dean & Dick & MacAvoy & Story Answer (3 msgs), Films - Defcon 4 & Buckaroo Banzai & The Man Who Could Work Miracles, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Author Recommendations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jen%mit-nessus@mit-athena.ARPA (Jennifer A Hawthorne) Date: 7 May 1985 1247-EDT (Tuesday) Subject: Artwork on Covers "Trumps of Doom", the newest Amber book, is now out in hard-cover with some of the most awful cover artwork I've seen in a while. It, too, is part of a series like the first five (one story in several books) and (MILD SPOILER) it ends on a terrible cliff-hanger. Arrggh! Zelazny is a sadist. Out of curiousity, SKZB, how does an author feel about the cover artwork on his books? I noticed on "Yendi" that Vlad has no mustache and looks a lot older than twenty-one. The artwork on the paperback edition of "To Reign in Hell" looks nicely executed, but since I haven't read it yet, I don't know if it is faithful to the content. How about it? --Jennifer H.--- "Does the artwork on a book EVER have anything to do with the content?" -common question at MITSFS ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1985 13:30 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: pugh jon%e.mfenet@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Asimov's plans? > In _Edge_ the robots finished the ultra-subtle problem of ETs. > They zapped time around so that there weren't any ETs, just > humans. After all, that is the safest way for humans to live. I > doubt any aliens could stand to live in the same universe as us, > regardless of whether we could handle it. I mean really, we don't > even like each other. So anyhow, the robots have been subtly > controlling us, even to the point of playing with the fabric of > space/time. > > What is missing? > > The book in which they do zap the old path of time, of course. The events you are referring to are chronicled in "The End of Eternity" ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 5 May 85 17:53:07 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: > Yaweh was drivin by love, Abdiel by fear, Satan by indecision, and > Beelzebub by loyalty. If there was anyone in the entire book who > really knew what was going on, it was Lilith, but she was too > lacking in self-confidence to take the necessary steps. Second-guessing the author is a losing proposition, I suppose, but hallowed by long tradition in English classes. So: I would have said that Abdiel was driven (at the beginning) by ambition rather than fear, and kept that motivation all the way until he was discovered by all and sundry to have invented evil. Although basically a coward, I would say that his confrontation with Satan at the Southern Keep was not the action of a fearful being. Also, wouldn't you say that Mephistopheles (my favorite character, I think) knew even more about what was going on than Lilith? Let me reiterate my high praise for this book: I found the characterizations and motivations very credible. As long as it says spoiler in the title, let me also say that the final confrontation between Yaweh and Satan was incredibly impressive. I'm a big fan of the Regency Romance, where everybody wanders around under false pretences, and when finally when everybody *really* knows what everybody else meant by their actions they all make up and live happily ever after. However, to have the truth come out but still not make any difference to the outcome requires a great deal of artistry. Further, there is an inevitability about the ending: I was left with the feeling that even if Abdiel hadn't been doing the dirt throughout, the natural course of events would have ended in a similar result. Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: jen%mit-nessus@mit-athena.ARPA (Jennifer A Hawthorne) Date: 7 May 1985 1247-EDT (Tuesday) Subject: Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country" I just finished reading Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country" the other night and felt impelled to comment on something that really ticked me off. The book itself is a reasonably good read; it concerns a group of kids who invent an imaginary land for themselves and then manage to actually get to this place through the use of two magic swords. BUT--- ****FLAME WARNING**** IT NEVER ENDED!! By this I mean that "The Secret Country" seems to be the newest entry into the "One Story in Several Books" class of series, right up there with Eddings' Belgariad, The Lord of the Rings, Julian May's The Pleiocene Exile, Zelazny's Amber books, and so on, and so on. Thank you, SKZB, for having the decency to finish your stories at the same time you finished your books. I don't want to give anyone the impression that I hate this sort of series; they're great if you are looking for an epic-sized read. But I get VERY upset when (as with "The Secret Country") there is no way to tell that the book is not complete aside from actually reading the thing! The publisher did not deign to put "Book One in the Secret Country Series" or some such notice on the cover so that I would be forewarned. I reached the end of the book and couldn't believe my eyes! I felt cheated, and quite angry at the author, although I later realized that this was unfair to Ms. Dean as she probably had no say in the matter. When I complained (loudly) about this to my unfortunate roommate, she said that the publisher probably thought that putting a notice on the cover would diminish the sales of the book, as some people refuse to start a series until the entire work is finished. She also suggested that now that I had read the first part, I'd undoubtedly buy the rest of the books when they came out, ensuring decent sales. But it occurred to me, later, that being advertised as part of a series did not hurt the sales of Julian May's "The Adversary" or of Eddings' "Enchanter's End Game". In fact, they both made the national SF best-seller lists. As for reading the rest of the series, I'm not sure I will. I don't like feeling that I've been tricked into something I might not otherwise have done. Does anyone out there have similar feelings? *****Flame Off***** --Jennifer H.--- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 09:43 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Philip K. Dick In reply to: bunny!ehn\@topaz.arpa Being somewhat of a collector of P.K.Dick myself, I have both the books you mentioned. I would be willing to sell them if I can find replacements. I'll start checking the local used bookstores, if you want. BTW, could you send or post a list of all Philip K. Dick printed matter? Brett Slocum (ARPA: Slocum\@HI-MULTICS) (UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 17:58 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: DAMIANO and successors Cc: Alastair Milne >Try them! I second the motion. MacAvoy's first book, _Tea with a Black Dragon_ is also pretty good, although I agree that she's getting better as she goes along. Has anyone heard about any new stuff from her? Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 85 9:50:07 EDT From: "Morris M. Keesan" Subject: Re: Story request To: ihnp4!drutx!slb@bbncca.ARPA The story about the captured prisoner who confuses his alien captors by pretending to have an invisible companion is "The Space Willies". It was indeed part of an Ace double. I think it was by Murray Leinster, although Eric Frank Russell's name sticks in my head -- he may have written the other half of the double. I have a nagging feeling that "The Space Willies" was also published under another title, perhaps something like "The X Factor", and I'm not sure which title was used for the Ace double. As usual, I'm doing this from memory, since I'm here in my office and the collection is at home. --Morris keesan@bbn-unix.ARPA ihnp4!bbncca!keesan ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Yet another story request Date: 8 May 85 07:44:25 GMT The book about the guy caught by the aliens who drives them crazy is called "The Space Willies." It is one of my favorite stories, by Eric Frank Russell. It's in an ACE double with "Six Worlds Yonder," also by Eric Frank Russell. Muffy ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Yet another story request Date: 14 May 85 05:31:57 GMT Surely you are talking about THE SPACE WILLIES by Eric Frank Russell which was in an Ace Double with SIX WORLDS YONDER by Russell. I didn't remember the story myself by a gave a call to my Eustace and he remembered. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 7:50:14 EDT From: Earl Weaver (VLD/ATB) Subject: Films: Defcon 4 I haven't been following the digest to closely for awhile, so there may have been a discussion on Defcon 4 already. To make it short, I was very disappointed with the film. The story development, to me, was rather far fetched and loaded with cliche situations. The R rating comes from I presume, the violence (which appeared to me as "gore for gore's sake") since I don't recall too much coarse language nor "sexually explicit" scenes (at least they could've shown us the female astronaut in her birthday suit...). And to top it off, the movie ended with "they all lived happily ever after" (well, not all....). When I walked out of the theater, I felt that I had been had. If you've seen the film, what did you think? ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@topaz.arpa (showard) Subject: Buckaroo Banzai references? Date: 7 May 85 17:23:37 GMT I saw Buckaroo Banzai about a month ago, and noticed that the name of the company run by Red Lectroids was Yoyodyne. Yoyodyne was the name of a big corporation in Thomas Pynchon's _The_Crying_of_Lot_49_. My question is, what other references have people seen in this film? I'm especially asking those who have seen it dozens of times. The reference to Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds" broadcast doesn't count; it's a plot device, not an off-the-cuff reference. --Mr. Blore, in-house detective, KAOS Radio, U. of Denver ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 13:46 EDT From: Barry Margolin Subject: The Man Who Could Work Miracles To: mtgzz!leeper@TOPAZ.ARPA (m.r.leeper) > From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) > There is even a reference in the story to a similar story in the >film THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES. Just to set the record straight, the film TMWCWM is based on the short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named H.G. Wells. The story is actually very short (about five pages), and quite enjoyable. I read it about eight years ago while leaning against the library stacks. I had previously seen the film, and it is a good adaptation. barmar ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 May 85 09:41 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Local TV week - Star Trek, etc. On Monday, a local (Minneapolis) TV station (KITN-29) had a Star Trek Spectacular. After the normally scheduled episode (City on the Edge of Forever by Harlan Ellison, one of my fav. episodes) at 6PM, they had an hour long show called Star Trek Memories hosted by L. Nimoy. He went over the history of ST, his favorite episodes, Vulcan stuff (Mind-Meld, salute, neck pinch, etc.), the ST movies (1 and 2, and a teaser about the "upcoming" 3). Lots of clips of significant length. Then they had two good episodes: Space Seed and Amok Time. In all, four hours of Star Trek. I got my fill of TV for a week, and of Star Trek. This was the lead-off to the channels "Out of this World" week. Schedule: Monday : above Tuesday : The Day the Earth Stood Still (great) Wednesday: The Time Machine (good) Thursday : The Forbidden Planet (also great) Friday : Lost World (don't know) Now there is a TV station knows how to please SF fans. They often do theme weeks, and they often do SF in general. Just thought I'd let all you folks in netland know that Minneapolis has a high quality of life. Hee hee. Brett Slocum (ARPA: Slocum\@HI-MULTICS) (UUCP: ...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum) ------------------------------ Cc: hyper!brust@topaz.ARPA Subject: Internecine recommendations Date: 27 Mar 85 11:01:11 EST (Wed) From: Burgess Allison >>> At last able to put down _Cats_Have_No_Lord_ by Will * >>> Shetterly, >> >> I must admit that the reviewers for the cover blurb (Brust and >> ???), put me off a bit when it was revealed that they and the >> author had cooperated in several workshops and publishing houses. > >Why does the relationship among the writers change this? Are you >aware of the extent to which authors know each other? I'm not. >Harlan Ellison recommends Heinlein's FRIDAY. I wouldn't be at all >surprised if they've met. Does this invalidate the recommendation? Is this really a question? No, of course the relationship doesn't invalidate your opinion, but it sure does put the recommendation in a different light than if it had come from a -- shall we say -- less interested party. I'm *not* saying that your opinion and recommendation aren't both honest and sincere (I'm sure they are). Still, you should be able to see that these types of relationships have, and should have, an impact on how the recommendation is perceived. (Just as if you worked for Apple and gave an honest and sincere recommendation that people buy Macintoshes ... and certainly the same would hold true regardless of the form of relationship -- employee, consultant, dealer -- whatever.) It's not that the information *is* wrong, misleading or dishonest. It's just that the mere presence of this type of relationship introduces *a potential* for self-interest to creep into the opinion, which in turn increases the *possibility* that the information is wrong, misleading or dishonest. No, we can never know *all* the relationships between various authors/ recommenders. But we *would* like to know of any relationships that are of a business or near-business nature. Presumably, (at least some cynics would make this assumption) relationships involving business would be more likely to invoke the self-interest mechanism than would mere acquaintance. And finally, I suspect that the author of the comment was mostly criticizing the *publisher* (for failing to find someone else to recommend the book), rather than impugning the veracity of your recommendation. The implication, of course, is that they couldn't find a disinterested party to recommend it. On the positive side, it's quite heartening to see that the publisher *did* disclose the relationship. Sorry about reacting so strongly. It's just that I'm rather intense on the subject of disclosing potential conflicts of interest. -- Burgess Allison ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 May 85 1120-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #157 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 157 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Heinlein & SF Recommendations (3 msgs) & Story Answers (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Criticizing & Authors In-Person ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: TO REIGN IN HELL Date: 7 May 85 10:41:27 GMT I'm glad to see that there are other people who didn't care for Brust's TO REIGN IN SPAIN-- I mean HELL. Well, I'm not *glad*, really, I mean I want Steve's book to do well and all that cause he's a good musician and he looks just like me (that handsome devil!) and he keeps his wrist straight and he's just a hell of a guy and all that. But it's just that I was one of a whole big bunch of people that read the thing before publication, and I seemed to be the lone wolf who wasn't exactly overwhelmed by it (or at least the only one who was honest :-)). Not that there was anything about REIGN to *dis*like. Just that there wasn't much that I *liked* about it. I did enjoy his other books, though. I guess I'm glad that it isn't just me. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 7 May 85 21:26:56 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >It is Bad Form for an author to respond to negative reviews. Now, why is that? It seems to me like you would want to respond to bad reviews. After all, what kind of response can you make to good reviews. "Thank you, thank you." Mutual back-patting isn't that interesting. Obviously you don't want to get caught up in arguing about your books too much -- you'd end up looking juvenile -- but I think a fair amount of response to negative reviews is warranted. The author of a book has a very different understanding of the book than a reader does, because much of what the author understands about the book comes from internalized thoughts, false starts, musings, etc., that never show up in print. Negative reviews often point out where the author failed to completely communicate his understanding. Writing to clear up these kinds of mis-communications can be helpful for both the author and the reader. > The real flaw in the book (I say its a flaw because very few >people have picked it up, so I obviously didn't bring it off) was >this: Abdial's actions didn't matter. If there had been no Abdial, >things would have proceeded in almost exactly the same way. Prime example, I think. I never considered this point until you brought it up. Thinking back upon the book, I guess I can see your argument for this. I don't agree with it. For this to hold, the forces involved should have been so overwhelming that the course of events would be unchangable. This simply isn't so in To Reign in Hell. There are several points in the book where a conversation between Yaweh and Satan would have cleared the air. Regardless of whether or not you brought the point across in the book, it is interesting to hear that this was the point you were trying to make. Now, the question is: Did you start out with this as your "point" or did it develop during the course of writing the story? Scott R. Turner ARPA: srt@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA UUCP: ...!{cepu,ihnp4,trwspp,ucbvax}!ucla-cs!srt SPUDNET: ...russet$eye.srt ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: GREAT SF STORIES (1939) Date: 14 May 85 04:19:30 GMT >> "Lifeline" by Robert Heinlein >It should be mentioned that this was Heinlein's first short story. I didn't think that was all that relevant, but it certainly is true. >Like many of Heinlein's stories, at the time it was written, it was >NOT a "re-telling of an old idea" but rather the first time the >idea was brought into Science-Fiction. The two are not mutually exclusive. It was both. There have been tales since the ancient Greeks of people who have been told that they would be killed in such and such a battle. In fact, the idea of knowing the time of one's death need not even be fantasy. In this case, instead of a Delphic oracle telling a man of his own death, a scientist uses a scientific means. That is an engaging concept in itself, but its dramatic impact, the effect it has on people, has shown up before in fiction. (Not that it is relevant to this argument, but it also shows up in -- admittedly later -- fantasy films GOLDEN EARRINGS and KRULL and non-fantasy films IKIRU and LAST HOLIDAY those these latter two are stretching the point a little.) In any case, I stand by what I said, it is a decent story but essentially an old idea. >Jerry can supply the date it was written. It first appeared in magazine form in 1939 -- that is how it made it into this anthology. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Steven Brust: To Reign in Hell, et al Date: 6 May 85 15:51:18 GMT > On a slightly different topic, does anyone have any suggestions > for good recent science fiction? Recently all the new books have > been fantasy, or at most science fantasy. Even Niven's "Integral > Trees" was pretty innocuous, although enjoyable. Maybe I have to > wait for that long promised sequel to "The Mote in God's Eye." > Roy J. Mongiovi. If you haven't read it, I STRONGLY recomment David Brin's STARTIDE RISING; pure science fiction at its very best. Similarly, Tim Power's DINNER AT DIVIANT'S PALACE, and going back a ways, Gene Wolf's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: Steven Brust: To Reign in Hell, et al Date: 8 May 85 04:00:51 GMT Add to recommendations of recent good SF: David Brin's _Sundiver_; Frederick Pohl's Heechee triology -- _Gateway_, _Beyond_the_Blue_Event_Horizon_, and _Heechee_Rendezvous_; Dean Ing's _Systemic_Shock_ and _Single_Combat_; John Ford's _The_Final_Reflection_ ...sez who? ...sez me! -- Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA Subject: Suggested science fiction readings. Date: 8 May 85 07:50:45 GMT roy@gitpyr.UUCP (Roy J. Mongiovi) writes: >On a slightly different topic, does anyone have any suggestions for >good recent science fiction? Ok, a couple of one-line shots, from (ever-failing) memory. The best book I've read in a long while is Mary Gentle's (I *think* I've got her last name right) "Golden Witchbreed." Obviously science fiction, but it has a bit of a fantasy taste. Any one else out there read it? The new Tiptree novel "Brightness Falls from the Air" (or something like that) is pretty good. Not great, but worth buying/reading. Gibson's "Neuromancer" (which got a nebula - undeservedly, if you ask me. Then again, "Press [Enter]" also got one, so...) is ditto. Other than that, you're right - everybody seems to be doing fantasy. Could someone make some suggestions for me? Thanx, After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to >say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies. >Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while most >comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. I have been accused of the converse. >Very few good, supporting statements are made. That may be the period you have been looking at. BRAINSTORM was a good thoughtful science fiction film, but that was a while back. The film of 1984 was pretty good, but it was a depressing experience. It is not the kind of film that gets a big following (though BLADERUNNER seems to break this rule). >Now you must remember that writing allows much more freedom of >expression than does movie making. I feel that given the >restrictions of time, money, available actors (with talent) and >politics (which eventually enter any large project) what we see is >not too bad. Good low-budget science fiction films are rare, but good filmmakers do occasionally come up wit a good concept that doesn't need effects. UNEARTHLY STRANGER is certainly in the top 10% of science fiction films, yet it is just actors in front of a camera. No special effects required. In fairness, it also seems to have disappeared. Audiences want to see more than actors in front of a camera for some reason. > My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not >putting its heart and soul into SF. No matter what they try, it >gets torn apart by SF 'fans'. And it makes big money at the box-office. Look how many more big budget science fiction films are made now than were made a decade ago. That does not argue that people who review these films shouldn't be fair to them, but don't exaggerate the credence that filmmakers give to the opinions of science fiction fans. I call them as I see them so I gave a +2 (on the -4 to +4 scale) to DUNE. That is hardly tearing apart a film that was to say the least flawed. I think many of the people on the net, like me, will rate a film high if it has something good in it, regardless if it also has bad touches. >Nothing is good enough, nothing is acceptable. I think that science fiction fans are considerably less harsh on science fiction films than are mainstream critics. Be fair, a good proportion of fantasy films get good reviews on the net. LADYHAWKE has gotten some real raves on the net. I don't think that science fiction films do worse than fantasy as a whole, but it is harder to discuss if the curse makes sense in LADYHAWKE than it does to discuss the ecology of SILENT RUNNING. >Well I enjoy seeing a new SF movie, So do I. Perhaps even a bit more than you do. >if it is a serious attempt to do well, even if it falls short. We >see *so* little of it. WIZARDS was enjoyable, LotR was >entertaining, and 2010 was far better than watching the The Love >Boat. I agree on two out of three, and did so in my original reviews. (I find a little hypocrisy in the story of WIZARDS.) > I'm not saying films shouldn't be criticized. If they weren't >nothing would improve. But the impression from this digest is, >"Nothing is good enough for us. You do your best and we'll pick it >to death somehow." That is not my observation. >Many of the criticisms I've seen are really ridiculous. If I was a >movie producer and read this digest, I wouldn't even attempt SF. Oh yes you would! You would count the number of people commenting on the films and multiply by $4.50. I don't see anyone on the net saying that this or that film has soured them on going to see science fiction films. >I'd get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a T-shirt, and be assured to >make money without anyone noticing the plot (or lack of). Very seriously, I read Variety and that sort of film does not hit the top of the charts the way a science fiction film does. Of course, films like POLICE ACADEMY II do well too, and require a lot less thought, but they require a funny script, and that is a real gamble too. PA-II and LADYHAWKE are currently at the top of the charts. The latter is a well-made fantasy film and it is being paid off accordingly. > I'd like to see more constructive comments; remove the >clothespins from your noses and point out the good parts, the >creative and original ideas, the novel approaches. I think I try to, but it is good advice, nonetheless. >Don't be in such a hurry to jump on the bandwagon of critics that >recognition is forgotten. Support for what the industry does right >may create more progress and generate more creative ideas than >continuous, boring and tiresome criticisms. Most of who I consider the better critics on the net have a fair share of positive reviews and do try to write the kind of review you want. Peter Reiher is my personal choice for the best of us and he certainly does. (But then he says so much in a film to talk about, some of it would have to be good.) I don't think you are entirely wrong, but I don't think you are entirely right either. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 8 May 1985, 22:53-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: Re: Authors in-person > From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) > Maybe most 'big' SF authors are insipid in person - I've only met > two, Asimov and Varley, and the conversation did tend to be rather > one-sided, but both seemed quite friendly. -steve It depends very much on which authors you talk to. The interesting thing about SF is the accessibility of the authors, as compared to mainstream fiction, or even other specialized genres. Thus, you tend to get more of both, friendly and [colorful descriptive term] authors. In my experience, I have rarely found an author who is truely unbearable (although they do exist), and lots of writers who will go way out of their way to be nice to you. As a rule, the 'bigger' authors (better selling) do tend to be more protective of their privacy and shy away from the fans more, but lots of them don't. McCaffrey has always been very accessable to her fans (when she's on the right side of the ocean), as have Brunner, Wolfe, Niven, Vinge, and a long time SF-LOVER: Forward. One thing to remember is that if you try to talk to them about something they get asked 1E6 times a day, you're going to get a canned answer. If every fan within 3000 miles has asked the author a given question, it's going to be hard for you to get a fresh answer. If you talk to them about something fresh, you can get some really good conversations. James ARPA: JMTURN@MIT-MC UUCP: ...physics!mitccc!lmi-capricorn!jmturn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 85 1042-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #158 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 158 Today's Topics: Art - Art on Book Covers, Books - Adams & Benford & Dean & Farmer (2 msgs) & Hogan & A Story Request Answered & Another Story Search, Films - Zelazny Movies (2 msgs) & Star Trek IV, Miscellaneous - Meeting Authors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 May 85 21:53 CDT From: "David S. Cargo" Subject: Art on Covers The three Barbara Hambly books, The Time of the Dark, The Walls of Air, and the Armies of Daylight, all have covers by David Mattingly. All the covers are DIRECTLY and CLEARLY related to scenes in the corresponding books (and usually scenes quite near the beginning of the books). I have wanted to buy the original cover art for the first book, but originally Mattingly said that he was holding onto the set for his personal portfolio. I eventually told an art deal mutual friend that I would be willing to buy all three. He told Mattingly, but he still wanted to keep them for his folio. Later I found out had sold all three, and forgotten that he had had another offer. *Sigh* At least it was cheaper not to have them. David S. Cargo (Cargo@HI-Multics) ------------------------------ Date: 09-May-1985 1139 From: covert%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Covert) Subject: HHTttG book four available in Europe as... From: HAN01::FUECHTJOHANN The fourth book of the Hitch Hiker's Guide trilogy is available as paperback in this part of the planet : Douglas Adams "So long and Thank you for all the Fish" PAN Books ISBN 0-330-28700-1, in the U.K. 1.95 Pounds Heinrich Fuechtjohann, DEC SWS Hannover FR Germany, "The Hangover Branch near the East German Border" ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 85 15:12:25 PDT (Wednesday) From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Gregory Benford novels >From: sampath@topdoc.DEC (Superman 3.2 under field test) >Can some one post/email brief reviews of Gregory Benford novels ? As luck would have it, I was ill this past weekend, and had a wonderful chance to re-read Gregory Benford's /In the Ocean of Night/. I first read this about five or six years ago, and was strongly impressed by Benford's writitng style. Today, my impression is the same: excellent. /In the Ocean of Night/ is set in the near future, and involves humankind's first contacts with alien intelligence. As science fiction, this book is very believable. As a novel, this book is a work of art. While I was slightly annoyed at the way Benford chose to end this book, I think that has to do mostly with the way I like to see a book end. Anyway, the book is a joy to read. Benford has a fantastic appreciation of what captures and binds a reader to a story. He freely switches from prose to verse in his writing, with no apology but with great effect. Benford's attention to minutae brings his characters into sharp focus and fills their lives with a richness that I find enviable. The flow of the story is fast and full. I was surprised when I reached the halfway point and found more book, for I had already read a good novel. As a Pasadena resident, I was tickled a few times by Benford's description of Pasadena in the 2010s. I hope the smog doesn't really get that bad. /In the Ocean of Night/ is a good read. I recommend it highly. -- Josh Susser ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country" Date: 8 May 85 17:40:51 GMT > From: jen%mit-nessus@mit-athena.ARPA (Jennifer A Hawthorne) > > I just finished reading Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country" the > other night and felt impelled to comment on something that really > ticked me off. The book itself is a reasonably good read; it > concerns a group of kids who invent an imaginary land for > themselves and then manage to actually get to this place through > the use of two magic swords. BUT--- > > ****FLAME WARNING**** > IT NEVER ENDED!! > > The publisher did not deign to put "Book One in the Secret Country > Series" or angry at the author, although I later realized that > this was unfair to Ms. Dean as she probably had no say in the > matter. You are correct. I'm pleased that, at least, you aren't blaming the author. What happened in this case is that she wrote a book that was too long for a first novel, so it had to be split. I agree, and I'm sure Ms. Dean agrees that the reader should have been warned. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 13 May 1985 08:09:25-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: Riverworld (* SPOILER *) *** SPOILER WARNING *** I have just finished the Riverworld series (better late than never), and have a VERY large question about the ending. Once Burton, X, Alice, Frigate, et. al. save the life of the computer and convince it to start doing resurrections again, et. al. and Farmer seem to have forgotten one thing - half (?) the Grailstones along the River DON'T WORK! Now, I suppose you could say that they'll get around to fixing them (ah, but who is they?), but in the meantime the 17 Billion or so people who are still alive are going to figure out what's going on and probably start killing the resurecties (?) before they can even wake up. Does anyone know if Farmer takes care of this anywhere? If so, where? Is Riverworld and Other Stories worth reading? Arghh!! I'm not usualy a detail picker, but that one was just too obvious/ridiculous. Brendan E. Boelke p.s. If I missed anything that explains this (I finished the book at 2 a.m) my humble apologies - but I don't think I did. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 14 May 1985 06:50:49-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: Riverworld Ahem. The previous message I sent concerning the Riverworld series was sent as soon after finishing the series as was possible. I have now had over 24 hours to reflect on the books. [Asbestos on] Yechh. My recommendation to anyone thinking of reading this series is to read the first book and the last chapter of the third book and skip all drivel 'tween. *** Mild Spoiler *** Was there really any purpose to entire chapters being devoted to Burton talking to himself or Clemens having a conversation (?) with Twain? Was this supposedly 'character development'? The only truly likable character in whole series was Joe, and he gets bumped off (again) just when it was getting interesting! The battle between Rex and Not For Hire was ridiculous, although I thought the dogfight was well done until the finale (All four in a row?!). Is this really considered a 'classic'. Maybe I wasn't getting SFL when it suggested NOT reading this series. Arghhhh! I read all that junk in the middle for one good chapter! Oh well, read and learn. Brendan E. Boelke ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Thu, 9 May 85 20:53:42 -0200 To: "pugh, jon%c.mfenet"@lll-mfe.arpa Subject: Re: More on Hogan and SF in general ... > So, what does it matter if Hogan gets a bit caught up in his > theory of time travel? He is doing what he enjoys, which is > making increadible ideas sound plausible. If the reader has to > sit there and disbelive, then it makes me wonder why the person is > reading fiction. After all, isn't this supposed to be fun? Creating a theory based on genuine science, which is both exciting and plausible, is a very demanding task. Hogan is the only writer I know who consistently achieves this in every book of his that I've read (which is all except the Giants' Trilogy). Now when a writer achieves this, the readers can add a lot to their enjoyment of his book if they think seriously about the theory, evaluate its plausibility, and note any flaws or inconsistencies. If you get angry whenever anyone does that, you're missing most of the value that hard-core SF can give you. By the way, I highly recommend the anthology "Where do We Go From Here?", edited by Isaac Asimov. It contains short SF stories, of varying quality, but each with some hard-code element, and each followed by a postscript by Asimov with specific suggestions for this sort of thinking. > Wouldn't you be willing, given a genesis machine (Love that wave > theory of matter!), to try and save this planet from the fanatic > little loonies that overrun it's surface? I would. > Unfortunately, there is no super-being that has morals harder than > adamantium, no genesis machine, and no time travel. So does it > matter that Hogan has a simplistic view of politics? His emphasis > was that science can be used for good, given the motivation behind > it is good. There's a name for someone who enforces on others, by force or threats, his idea of "good". The name is: dictator. I'm not sure that Hogan seriously believes that "message" you're talking about, but there certainly exist scientists who do. If you want historical examples, look at the German scientists who cooperated with the Nazis, or at the American scientists who gave the secrets of the Atom Bomb to the Russians. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ Date: Thu 9 May 85 14:58:41-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #151 > to at least a third of infinity!) On the planet are giant > creatures engaged in the common creature pasttime, sex. However, > our hero, and his ship, are about the size of a single sperm cell. > Now, evolution takes a wild turn with Mom guarding her egg by > shooting down every sperm she can. She mistakes our hero for a > sperm but he manages to avoid being hit by using his computer. > Nevertheless, he hurtles into the egg where he is merged into a > new critter with the ship built in. And that's all I remember. I can't remember the name of the story; it's the sequel to _The_Spectre_General_ by Schmidt. Something suggests that it was in an Amazing or Analog or something like that memorial edition. Beware on rereading -- it's a shaggy-dog story. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 May 85 15:49 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Story search: living the same day over and over... Another story along these lines (probably not the one being asked about, but you never know) is the short novel "Time Trap", by Keith Laumer. Small communities from various times were yanked out of normal spacetime and locked into 5(??)-dimensional hyperspheres. If you walked a mile or so in any direction, you came back to your starting point, and each day you were physically restored to your form as of the time that you were originally locked into the trap (with your memories of the intervening time intact, however). Rather tongue-in-cheek; features an alien who closely resembles an ambulatory giant rutabega. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Zelazny movies? Date: 8 May 85 17:25:27 GMT > This is being posted for a friend of mine who is not on the net. > Please reply by mail to me. Although I dump this group to > hard-copy, I may not actually read it for several months, given my > current lack of time, and I think he would like a response a > little sooner than that. > > In 'Jack Of Shadows' (Roger Zelazny) the author description page > noted that out of his 26 books one has been made into a movie and > another has been sold to be made into a movie. Does anyone know > anything about either of these? > > Brad Brilliant Sorry. My "reply" function doesn't work very well, I'm too lazy to track down the path, and this might be of general interest anyway. Resiliant excrement. :=) The one that has been into a movie was, and has been mentioned already, DAMNATION ALLEY. The leads in this one COULD have done a fine job if it had been left alone, but they had to take the "hero" of the novel (the last remaining Hell's Angel, for God's sake!) and turn him into a...never mind. I can't talk about it. The one that might become a movie is LORD OF LIGHT. There is a strange and wonderful tale about why it hasn't been made yet (involving such things as First Amusement Park Rights), but it is now being worked on by some serious people, and might actually happen. I have some ideas on how it SHOULD be done myself, but there is no way anyone could afford to do these things, and no way I could convince anyone to in any case. But it might, really, be happening. We'll just have to wait and see. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: utai!perelgut@topaz.arpa (Stephen Perelgut) Subject: Re: Zelazney movie (Damnation Alley) Date: 8 May 85 15:16:07 GMT Watch the beginning of Damnation Alley and then watch War Games. Identical!!! And quite scary to see two very different films start World War III the same way (sorta)! Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute, Univ. of Toronto USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!utcsri!uturing!perelgut CSNET: perelgut@Toronto ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz.arpa (ZNAC343) Subject: Re: STAR TREK IV Date: 9 May 85 02:05:57 GMT It seems that the plot to Star Trek IV: The Search For Enterprise is as follows: (This information is from a RELIABLE source) The USS Enterprise having been regenerated in the atmosphere of the Genesis planet,and feeling very well after the whole experience,heads for the planet Vulcan.The Enterprise is being controlled by a mysterious Energy force,never encountered before. The crew,all having been on the Genesis planet,lose all of their wrinkles and feel young and beautiful again,and ready to take on another five year voyage.Captain Kirk doesn't lose all of his wrinkles (due to there being too many of them.),but is cleared of all charges and declared a hero. The crew all beam up to the Enterprise,exchange a few cliches,and head towards a black hole,that just happens to be lying around nearby in space) at warp factor 10.Due to the immense gravity of the black hole they go back in time to just before the Enterprise buys it over Genesis.Because there are now two Enterprises,the Klingon Bird Of Prey is blown out of existence.Kirk's son David does not die,so Kirk misses his chance to swear and act emotional. There are now two Enterprises left and two crews,so both crews enter the transporter at the same time and are joined together as one.Then they all return to Earth with two Enterprises,Star Fleet forgives them all (one reason being that they now have two Enterprises to sell for scrap instead of one), and Kirk is declared a Hero (again). (The crew went on to make guest appearances in the new series of T.J.Hooker). (TO BE OR NOT TO BE THAT IS ILLOGICAL CAPTAIN...SPOCK). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 May 85 01:36:49 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: re 'wild authors I have known' (Figuratively wiping the omelette off my face...) Apologies for being so whiny and annoying. Lisa Chabot is of course right, and my only excuse is that I was peeved that I had spent the time to read Robinson's dissertation and then had come up with nothing to reward the effort, and for some reason I felt especially cranky several nights ago and... So I blew it. Hey, I love my Mom, and I'd die without my apple pie, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn PS -- What's the best way to get on a safari to bag some 'wild authors'? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 85 1116-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #159 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 159 Today's Topics: Art - Book Covers, Books - Asimov & Cook & Dean & Heinlein & Zelazny & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs) & Hugos (2 msgs), Films - Buckaroo Banzai & Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, Television - Starlost (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Pamela C. Dean's "The Secret Country" Date: 8 May 85 17:40:51 GMT > Out of curiousity, SKZB, how does an author feel about the > cover artwork on his books? I noticed on "Yendi" that Vlad has no > mustache and looks a lot older than twenty-one. The artwork on > the paperback edition of "To Reign in Hell" looks nicely executed, > but since I haven't read it yet, I don't know if it is faithful to > the content. How about it? > > --Jennifer H.--- The first purpose of cover art is to sell the book. If, in so doing, it can make a statement as to what the book is about, so much the better. If it can remain faithful to the content of the book, that is more than anyone can reasonably expect. I feel very fortunate in the Vlad books. The covers look good, and artist Steve Hickman captured the feel of the books very well, even though neither character (Vlad or Loish) looks as I envision him. So what? He is, quite literally, an artist. He strains reality through his own perceptions in just the way I strained it through mine. We are bound to have different filter because we are different individuals. When I see an artists rendition of a character or scene from a story, it never looks the way I envisioned it. So what? That is a bogus method of judgeing a piece of art. There is a thing called "feel" or "spirit" that transcends physical description, and if the artist captures that, my hat is off to him. If he does in on a book cover, and STILL manages to make the cover attractive enough to sell (as Steve did), I am delighted. The painting for Hell was fine. The trouble was the title. In the first place, the lettering is atrocious. In the second, I should have called the book DRAGONRIDERS OF HEAVEN. Then the cover would have been perfect. This'll teach me to put a dragon in my books! -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 03:20:34-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Asimov's plans > From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA (Jon Pugh) > > I read _Foundation's Edge_ and _The Robots of Dawn_ and I would > like to do some predictions of what I think is to come from Dr A. > > [speculations excised] > > I think Issac has his next project going. We'll see. If he > doesn't, perhaps we can persuade him. Send those cards and > letters. You may well be interested in the following information, which comes from the April SF CHRONICLE: "Isaac Asimov delivered ROBOTS TOWARD EMPIRE, a 140,000 word manuscript, to Doubleday on January 7th. The book, which takes place 200 years after ROBOTS OF DAWN is both a sequel and at the same time ties in to the Foundation series. It will be published in hardcover in September.... Asimov told SFC he has contracted with Doubleday for two more Foundation novels. Manuscripts are due to Doubleday in December 1985, and December 1986. The first will be a sequel to FOUNDATION'S EDGE; the second will be a prequel to the series, joining hari Seldon in middle age." --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Fri 10 May 85 00:32:50-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: ...good science fition? [recommendation] If you're looking for good adventure/hard science fiction (well not THAT hard; it's not in Dr. Forward's technology class, for instance), try Glen Cook's Passage at Arms. It's set in his "Starfishers" trilogy universe, but has no real connection with those 3 books (on a side note: if you noticed that the 3 "Starfishers" books seemed a bit choppy, it's because they were written to be published as either 1 book or 2, and the publisher insisted on breaking them up into 3!). Glen Cook also has A Matter of Time out now; a good combination of contemporary police procedure/mystery and time travel. This book is also well worth reading. Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC Subject: Re: Pamela C. Dean's \"The Secret Country\" Date: 9 May 85 20:01:11 GMT Er, I have a feeling that when _The_Secret_Country_ was printed, the details about the sequel hadn't been hashed out. Since this is a first novel, it's possible a publisher would be VERY hesitant about admitting/committing to further novels. Last time I asked, my source said probably January. I know people who won't buy the first book in a series unless all the books are available. This is so STUPID!! If the first book doesn't sell, who says there's going to be any more, especially if it's a first novel. And, by the time the sequel is out, the first book is almost definitely out of print--*sooo* much for collecting the whole series. Okay, _Chanur's_Venture_ is even worse of a cliff-hanger, and it's not announced either (Spike at Science Fantasy Bookstore had the courtesy to warn me). At least we know the characters are ALIVE and well in _The_Secret_Country_. Zelazny's _Jack_of_Shadows_ ends FALLING OFF A CLIFF (none of this measly hanging business), and, no, there's no sequel. Hell, there's no sequel to _Gone_with_the_Wind_, really. I've read uncountable ( == >4 ) books in series that had no indication that they had prequels or sequels; first publications of the first book in a series often have this problem. I've read serials that the magazine goes out of business before the next month. Life is risky. L S Chabot decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: ihu1m!johnnyr@topaz.arpa (John R. Rosenberg) Subject: Re: RAH : FRIDAY Date: 10 May 85 13:03:42 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >Yes, I remember that plot flaw as well. Unfortunately, this >screen is too small to hold it. > -- SKZB Just for those of us who read Friday a while ago and aren't too clear on the details, could someone please explain the fatal flaw in the plot? Thanks. John Rosenberg AT&T-NS ihnp4!ihu1m!johnnyr ------------------------------ Date: Sat 11 May 85 13:00:09-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Trumps of Doom It isn't QUITE a cliffhanger; rather it just isn't a successful climax. I can see that there is some potential for criticizing the book on various grounds, but as I am irrational with respect to Amber, please preface your criticisms with a subject header that indicates same so I don't have to read them.... -Laurence ------------------------------ From: ukc!csw@topaz.arpa (C.S.Welch) Subject: Re: Yet another story request Date: 16 May 85 14:40:46 GMT The book title that Sue Brezden is looking for is "Next of Kin" by Eric Frank Russell. Another one of his that I found very entertaining was "Wasp". Set against the same background of technologically advanced Earth against less advanced but numerically superior Sirians ( spot the theme!) it is the tale of a reluctant secret agent dropped on a planet behind enemy lines with orders to create as much chaos as possible. Worth looking at if you have the time, but not a great work of literature. Chris Welch Cranfield Institute U.K. csw@ukc.uucp ------------------------------ Date: Fri 10 May 85 18:15:27-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Time Runs Uphill From Mr Grady's description in his YABT post, it seems to me that the story in question is Brian Aldiss : Cryptozoic serialised in New Worlds lo these many years ago. Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!jeanne@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Hugo Award Nominations Date: 8 May 85 19:28:45 GMT >Could someone enlighten me as to the prerequisites a novel needs to >be eligible for a Hugo? Copyright date? Publication date? In which >country? It's based on calendar year publication. Books that get published in December and January (and never seem to come out when the copyright says) are a problem that I've never quite figured out. My usual course of action is to use the Recommended List in Locus as a guide to what's eligible. I don't think country makes a difference, but since most people who vote are American, books published in the States obviously have an (overwhelming) advantage. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: re: Hugo Award nominations Date: 11 May 85 11:28:49 GMT I missed the original posting, but... > From: ucla-cs!jeanne > >> Could someone enlighten me as to the prerequisites a novel needs >> to be eligible for a Hugo? Copyright date? Publication date? In >> which country? > > It's based on calendar year publication. Books that get published > in December and January (and never seem to come out when the > copyright says) are a problem that I've never quite figured out. > My usual course of action is to use the Recommended List in Locus > as a guide to what's eligible. Partially right. Eligibility is based on the stated publication date on the book or magazine. For this year's awards, short stories in magazines are eligible only if the cover date is 1984, regardless of when it comes out. Novels that are serialized in magazines are only eligible for the year that the last issue containing the serial is dated. For books, again, the stated publication date is what counts. Remember, regardless of when a book is actually published, copyright date only reflects when the book was copyrighted, not published. Of course, books are usually issued a month before the stated publication date, but that's something else again. > I don't think country makes a difference, but since most people > who vote are American, books published in the States obviously > have an (overwhelming) advantage. Nominees are eligible on their first publication *in English*. A worthy story may have been published in, say, France, thirty years ago, but if it was published in English for the first time in 1984, it would be eligible for this year's awards. Books first published in England *can* end up getting screwed if they aren't published in the US until the next year, but this hasn't happened enough to make that much difference. Besides, I believe there is a loophole in the eligibility rules that allows an author of a book published only in England in a given year to withdraw eligibilty for that novel until the year it appears in the US. I know that this has applied to limited edition works. For example, Larry Niven's RINGWORLD ENGINEERS came out in limited edition from Phantasia Press in December 1979, but Niven withdrew it in favor of its trade publication in 1980. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 May 85 01:47:45 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: Buckaroo Banzai References udenva!showard@topaz.arpa writes: > I saw Buckaroo Banzai about a month ago, and noticed that the name > of the company run by Red Lectroids was Yoyodyne. Yoyodyne was the > name of a big corporation in Thomas Pynchon's _The_Crying_of_Lot_ > _49_. Yoyodyne was first mentioned in _V_ (Pynchon's first book; _Lot_49_ was his second). In the book(s), it wasn't run by aliens; it was a small toy company run by one Bloody Chiclitz until the 1940s, at which time "the children of America conceived . . . a simultaneous and psychopathic craving for simple gyroscopes . . . Chiclitz was well on the way to cornering the toy gyroscope market when along came a group of school kids on tour to point out that these toys worked on the same principle as a gyrocompass." Chiclitz goes into business making gyros for the government, and the company blossoms into a full-scale Defense Contractor. "Dyne, one engineer had told him, was a unit of force. So to symbolize the humble beginnings of the Chiclitz empire and to get the idea of force, free enterprise, engineering skill and rugged individualism in there too, Chiclitz christened the company Yoyodyne." The Nova Police, which are mentioned in the BB novel but not, I think, in the film (they were the Good Guys), are also named after an organization in a Pynchon novel (Gravity's Rainbow, I believe. I heard this in the Digest over the summer). Incidentally, I began reading Pynchon (well, _V_) because of the glowing praise in these very pages. I don't know of any other references, sorry. (Unless the conical "aliens" in the Lectroids' hangout really are references; see an earlier message of mine.) --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax] PS: Read the novel! It's by Earl Mac Rauch, and it reads like an old Tom Swift book. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 04:05:13-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: ATTACK OF THE KILLER TOMATOES > From: wudma!ph@topaz.arpa > As I understand it there are TWO "Attack of the Killer Tomatos" > movies; one made in the fifties which was more or less serious (so > I hear--I've never seen it), and one made during the seventies > which was definitely parody. Probably the one being nominated was > the older one. What you understand is utter hogwash. There is only *one* AotKT, and it is definitely a parody. There is a scene in it in which a Japanese scientist talks, with a bland American voice on the soundtrack and the lip-sync totally off. I can't believe that anyone could see this and think that the movie was trying to be serious. On the other hand, despite that fact that it is a parody, AotKT is a very poorly-made film, and probably deserves to be put on a bad-film list. It's still a scream to watch though. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: Starlost reruns Date: 8 May 85 16:38:04 GMT I have seen the entire putrid series chopped up into a series of movies and run as "Science Fiction Week" on the local UHF channel. I hope the UHF channel didn't dupe anyone into thinking THAT is science fiction! Lord Kahless ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 13 May 1985 15:53:30-PDT From: kevin%bartok.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Re: ``The Starlost'' For all of the dirty details, see Harlan Ellison's ``Somehow, I don't think we're in Kansas, Toto'' which originally appeared as the introduction to Edward Bryant's novelization of Ellison's screenplay for ``Phoenix Without Ashes.'' (It has been collected in Ellison's ``Stalking the Nightmare.'') Ellison's original screenplay won the 1974 Writer's guild of America Award for Most Outstanding Film/TV Screenplay. It bears no resemblance to anything which ever appeared on TV under the name ``The Starlost,'' a fact which Ellison very bitterly (and rightly, it appears to me) points out. I thoroughly enjoyed Bryant's novelization and highly recommend it. Be seeing you! Kevin ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 May 85 1151-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #160 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 14 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 160 Today's Topics: Books - Dick & Heinlein (3 msgs), Films - The Dungeon Master (4 msgs), Television - V ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 04:52:05-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: Philip K. Dick > From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA (Brett Slocum) > In reply to: bunny!ehn\@topaz.arpa > > Being somewhat of a collector of P.K.Dick myself, I have both the > books you mentioned. I would be willing to sell them if I can find > replacements. I'll start checking the local used bookstores, if > you want. > > BTW, could you send or post a list of all Philip K. Dick printed > matter? Not asking for much, are you? :-) You may want to look for: PKD: A PHILIP K. DICK BIBLIOGRAPHY, compiled by Daniel J H Levack, Underwood/Miller, 1981. It's 156 pages of bibliographic data, including photo reproductions of Dick's books and sf magazines that featured Dick stories on the cover. There are also annotations by Steven Owen Godersky describing the plots. The bibliography covers books, short fiction, unpublished manuscripts, non-fiction, verse, and works about Dick. There are also lists of collaborative works, connecting stories, and a chronologically arranged list of Dick's work. Levack is one of the prime bibliographers in the field, and this is worth getting if you're a hardcore Dick fan. The book is available in both hardcover and softcover. I'm sorry, but I don't have price information on hand. I believe that the softcover is $9.95 softcover and the hardcover is $17.95, but I couldn't swear to it. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: timeinc!dwight@topaz.arpa (Dwight Ernest) Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Date: 11 May 85 03:21:13 GMT >What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS? >--bsa Well, how about fascism as glorified politics? How about blind military allegiance? How about violence==glory? Fortunately, it's difficult not to have a great deal of sympathy and identity with the bad "guys" in RAH's STARSHIP TROOPERS. Kind of like the way most Americans and British and Russians feel about what their country did in WW II. But even WW II had its many agonizing moments of vast grey areas (take just one example--Allied ignorance of the 300+ Nazi death camps). In RAH's world, there seem to be no grey areas, so we like the book (I really did enjoy it). But in real life there's grey everywhere. And that's why blind allegiance, unquestioning military service, and the equating of violence with glory are SO DAMNABLY DANGEROUS. One would hope Homo Sapiens will soon outgrow this kind of behavior--and literature--which leads down the path to the kind of dangerous "true belief" that Eric Hoffer warned us against. And which Hitler made such successful use of. --Dwight Ernest KA2CNN \ Usenet:...vax135!timeinc!dwight Time Inc. Edit./Prod. Tech. Grp., New York City Voice: (212) 554-5061 \ Compuserve: 70210,523 Telemail: DERNEST/TIMECOMDIV/TIMEINC \ MCI: DERNEST ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 04:59:13-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: STARSHIP TROOPERS > What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS? Well, I can't speak for Pamela Dean (she speaks well enough for herself, thank you), but I can tell you what *I* saw wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS. It was dull, dull, dull! You can say whatever you feel like in defense of it, but I tried *three* times to read it, and never got through more than about a third of it. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: reed!wab@topaz.arpa (William Baker) Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Date: 12 May 85 04:50:49 GMT > What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS? The main problem with Starship Troopers is that it glorifies war. John Rico, the main character, spends most of the book watching his buddies get blown away, all the while moralizing to himself on the necessity of war. In the future of Starship Troopers, the planetary government consists exclusively of veterans and only veterans can vote. The overall theme is that people who do not wish to serve in the military are social parasites. Heinlein reasons his arguments well, though. The government of veterans does not survive because it is morally superior to other forms; it continues to govern because it works. Also, it is made perfectly clear that the Bugs are determined to exterminate humans. There is no possibility for a negotiated peace, so the moral argument is not applicable. However, even this premise can be turned on its head. The most obvious example of this is Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War". Haldeman takes Heinlein's premise and some of his plot and turns the values around. It is exactly what one would expect from someone who read Heinlein avidly but also served in Vietnam (Haldeman). Great stuff. Dean's comment is apt. I have read my copy of Starhip troopers so many times that the pages are falling out. On the whole, it is not nearly as biased and jingoistic as Farnham's Freehold. In that novel he starts out with a nuclear war in which the main character, a thin, balding contractor/engineer (sound like someone familiar?), is determined to survive the war by hiding in his bomb shelter so that he can go out and "kill those pigs who killed my country!...I may die, but I'll have eight russian sideboys to carry my coffin!" or something like that. He and his gang are blown into the future where Negros are the dominant race and whites are slaves, making the point, in Heinlein's mind, that if there were more blacks than whites in modern times then they would enslave the whites, etc. I'm not accusing Heinlein of racism. If it is there, it is latent. Really, though, he has written some things that are shameful. Sometimes I wish he would listen to himself as much as others listen to him. He contradicts himself a great deal. On the other hand, the discussions recently that have denigrated his last few books and suggested that he is past his prime are off the mark. Heinlein is self-indulgent, hackneyed, and opinionated, but he is still writing with the insight and sensitivity has made him one of the three great s.f. writers. Hopefully, he will do as he has always done: Tell everyone to go to hell and write what he wants to write. Bill Baker tektronix!reed!wab ------------------------------ From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot) Subject: "The Dungeon Master" <> Date: 11 May 85 05:39:24 GMT I just returned from the movies with my friend, Jon Trudel, and we both agreed that immediate review was in order for the movie, "THE DUNGEON MASTER". The movie is based on the old "Pass these tests or the girl gets it!" idea. There were seven of these - each one right out of an Advanced Dungeons and Dragons scenario. In fact, the impression I got was that "The Dungeon Master" was written by a Dungeon Master complete with what the author thought should be the players and their reactions. Personally I feel I could have written a better script given the idea (which is original in the fact that no one has taken a D&D scenario (crappy as it may be) and turned it into a movie. Most of the wit came from the audience and not "The Dungeon Master." Some examples: "If you do not find your girlfriend in one hour she will be knifed. Get the point?..." The hero was sleeveless wearing padded armor when the villian asked, "What do you have up your sleeves?" That was our cue to yell out "What sleeves?!?!" In reply to one of the villian's propositions our hero said, "Just one word. Forget it." Maybe he meant "Just two words" or maybe he meant "Forgetit." Well? Comments, flames? eliot uucp:{allegra,seismo}!topaz!lear arpa:[Lear@Rutgers.arpa] ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan) Subject: the Dungeon Master Date: 11 May 85 06:41:39 GMT I just had the misfortune of going to see this film, and I want to warn you that it is quite bad. This is a film that will fade from memory, with luck. the Dungeon Master had an interesting idea. Our hero, played by Jeffrey Byron (who looks like Gary Kroger of SNL fame), is a 'computer genuis' who has developed an incredo-computer called 'CAL' (supposedly for "ExCALibur 8", but we all know what they're really referring to...). C(H)AL can affect many things in the material world, from changing traffic lights to robbing automatic teller machines. Anyhow, we meet his girlfriend, an aerobics instructor who knows extremely little about computers. She hates CAL, and sees it as a threat to their relationship. One night, the Devil summons them, and holds the girl hostage. The Devil has found, at last, an individual worthy of testing, thanks to the guy's technological expertise. The guy (his name escapes me, thank God) is dubbed the 'Excalibrate', due to C(HAL)'s name, and is given a complete link to C(H)AL. Ex is forced to complete seven tests, and if he fails, he and the girl give up their souls. Thus begins the movie, and it fails on these followup 'episodes'. I thought the premise of the film was good, but as the movie progressed, it got worse. The minor episodes were not completely there. They lacked true continuity, and their conclusions were derived from God knows where. For example, I might have missed the explanation, but Excalibrate grabs a crystal out of the hands of a frozen Albert Einstein (don't ask), smashes it, and completing the test. Also, Excalibrate interfaces with C(H)AL via a funky uniform consisting of padded vest and gauntlet getup. Along the way, C(H)AL becomes a kill-o-zapping kluge-device that scans, broadcasts, melts handcuffs, and more (it even makes Julienne fries ;-) ). I don't mind this, but Ex-baby can do all of this just by punching a few buttons on either gauntlet (he wasn't given a clue on how to operate the sucker). In defense of the Dungeon Master, there were a few good points to the film, but they were not developed past a quick showing on the screen. I liked the situation in the beginning where the guy proposes, but the girl is hesitant to say yes; this is because she feels C(H)AL would always be a third member of the marriage. This is not all that bad, and I'll bet there are a lot of people who dislike computers for the same reason. There is a followup nightmare chock full of symbolism that I liked, but it was too short. I also think that the producers of this film knew that it wouldn't be regarded as a serious flick, because there are several lines which were obviously added for the audience to respond to. The best one had to be at a time when Excalibrate was trying to talk the Devil into a deal, and the Devil cautiously says, 'you have nothing up your sleeves?' to which my friend and I shouted simultaneously 'NO SLEEVES!' (he was wearing a vest, get it?) If I had to rate this film, I wouldn't. It was definitely a film of the 'so-bad-it's-good' genre, but I would recommend that if you want to see this film, go to a matinee. You won't feel too cheated. ps-if you do go to see it, also look for the similarities certain scenes have with the scenes of other major sf films. One from the Trek III stands out in my mind right now... pps-Looking at the ad for the Dungeon Master, I see a small inclusion that states 'This motion picture is not related in any manner to the TSR, Inc. game entitled "Dungeons and Dragons" or any characters therein.' They wouldn't be trying to cash in on D&D's fame, would they? Naaaah. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa:trudel@ru-blue.arpa uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: "The Dungeon Master" <> Date: 12 May 85 19:38:25 GMT > Personally I feel I could have written a better script given the > idea (which is original in the fact that no one has taken a D&D > scenario (crappy as it may be) and turned it into a movie. Nope--the common consensus is that ARCHER: THE FUGITIVE FROM THE EMPIRE (a made-for-TV movie from 1981) did just that. (Probably others too.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot) Subject: Re: "The Dungeon Master" <> Date: 12 May 85 21:50:23 GMT >> Personally I feel I could have written a better script given the >> idea (which is original in the fact that no one has taken a D&D >> scenario (crappy as it may be) and turned it into a movie. > > Nope--the common consensus is that ARCHER: THE FUGITIVE FROM THE > EMPIRE (a made-for-TV movie from 1981) did just that. (Probably > others too.) Ok. Then in that case, the "The Dungeon Master" was just so bad that it was funny - not even original. eliot uucp: [{allegra,seismo,ihnp4}!topaz!lear] arpa: [Lear@RU-BLUE.arpa] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 May 85 12:45 IDT From: Tamir Weiner Subject: request for info on V There was some talk of the "V" t.v. series some while back. Since I had never heard or seen the series, I basically ignored the comments, which I only recall were mostly negative. Well out here in Israel, finally some quack in charge of buying American serials decided the SciFi fans had been starved long enough... They bought (leased) the V series and started to screen it weekly during the kiddie hour. As an aside, the V series replaced Wonder Woman, which replaced VOYAGERS (which was fairly clever, and quite educational). Not being a Lynda Carter fan, I have nothing nice to say on the Wonder Woman Series. But V, well, here's a series to warm the heart of any SF junkie. Yes it's crude, ridiculous SFX, and the thread of a plot.... and if you changed the lizards to Cylons, and the time and place, you are left with a rip-off of Battlestar Glactica. Too bad the Cosmos series ended, that was really a delight -- although you wouldn't call it scifi, more like Science with a dash of speculation, and a lot of philosophizing... but still a delight. Anyway, as you can see from my running off at the keyboard, you'd say that Israel isn't starving for Sci Fi TV, just GOOD SCI FI, which considering the amount of good SCI FI TV there is is the same boat all of you in the STates face. You just get the advantage of seeing the crap first, before it is sold world wide. I think I'm agreeing with all those who said Hollywood would never make a decent film, TV series, special, or whatever from the greats of SCI FI literature. Just isn't economical. So we put up with the junk, and even enjoy watching the likes of V. Which brings me to why I wrote this little letter. I missed the first episode of V, and have no idea who Elizabeth is.... or her role as the Star Child Although she is adorable and nice to see each week, I would certainly like to know what's the point of her being so central to the story. Anyone in net-land care to jot off a quick reply and just tell me why she is so important.... without spoiling the end please. Thanks. If it's not too much trouble, send me a copy of what you post to the digest to ZSTAMIR@WEIZMANN.BITNET (I'm on the Bitnet network, not Arpa!) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 May 85 0928-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #161 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 161 Today's Topics: Books - Sturgeon & "Space Willies" (2 msgs) & Book Series & Ghastly Beyond Belief, Films - Ladyhawke, Miscellaneous - Criticizing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 May 85 11:47:33 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: In Memoriam: Theodore Sturgeon In Memoriam: THEODORE STURGEON 1918 - 1985 Theodore Sturgeon, author of novels including MORE THAN HUMAN and THE DREAMING JEWELS, and stories including "Slow Sculpture", "To Here and The Easel", "It", "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister", "Killdozer", "Mr. Costello, Hero", "Microcosmic God", and "A Saucer of Loneliness", died this past week, after a series of progressive breathing-related health problems, at the age of 67. Born Edward Hamilton Waldo of Dutch-French and Canadian-English heritage, Ted appeared in the science fiction scene with "Ether Breather" in 1939, followed rapidly by stories such as "A God In A Garden", "Derm Fool", and the classic "It", in magazines such as ASTOUNDING and UNKNOWN. Ted soon became a member of editor John Campbell's "stable" of writers, which also included Robert Heinlein, L. Sprague de Camp, E.E. Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, and A.E. Van Vogt -- a roster of names who, along with Isaac Asimov, Poul Anderson, C.A. Kornbluth, and Henry Kuttner. To list the range of characters, styles, ideas, or plots in Sturgeon's work is no small task. His stories were about scientists, bulldozer operators, circus people, fencepost setters. In addition to science fiction, fantasy and horror, he wrote several novellas collected under the Western genre, in STURGEON'S WEST, along with a full novelization, THE KING AND FOUR QUEENS. He wrote the mainstream SOME OF YOUR BLOOD, and I, LIBERTINE, originally an imaginary book touted by radio personality Jean Shepherd. He wrote the novel adaptation for the movie of VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA, and several Star Trek episodes including "Shore Leave" and (I believe) "Amok Time". His fiction appear in magazines ranging from F&SF OMNI to HUSTLER, ROLLING STONE, and NATIONAL LAMPOON. He also did extensive book reviewing, went on tour as writer for ROLLING STONE with rock groups (Crosby Stills Nash and Young, I think). The only criticisms I can level against his work is that he didn't write more, particularly finishing GODBODY and/or the projected sequel to MORE THAN HUMAN; that more of his existing work wasn't collected; and that his books were for the most part so damned hard to find. His major books and collections include: WITHOUT SORCERY (collection) THE DREAMING JEWELS (novel, often titled THE SYNTHETIC MAN) E PLURIBUS UNICORN (collection) MORE THAN HUMAN (novel, consisting of the novellas "The Fabulous Idiot", "Baby is Three", and "Morality") A WAY HOME (collection) CAVIAR (collection) A TOUCH OF STRANGE (collection) THE COSMIC RAPE (expansion of "To Marry Medusa") ALIENS 4 (collection) BEYOND (collection) VENUS PLUS X (novel) STURGEON IN ORBIT (collection) STARSHINE (collection) SOME OF YOUR BLOOD (novel) THE STARS ARE THE STYX (collection) THE WORLDS OF THEODORE STURGEON (collection) STURGEON IS ALIVE AND WELL (collection) CASE AND THE DREAMER (collection) STURGEON'S WEST (collection) In addition to his writing, speaking, teaching, videotapes and other projects, Ted recorded several "spoken word" records of his work for Caedmon and Alternate Worlds, wrote with wife Jayne Tanehill Sturgeon the movie screenplay for MORE THAN HUMAN (not currently under option, I think). He also taught at many sf writer's workshops, including Clarion, and had recently put together a series of videotapes on writing. The people Ted touched during his life through his writing, his teaching, and personally, are probably beyond counting. He was surrounded by exceptional people and exceptional events, often spending months "on the road" at everywhere from Esalen and Hawaii to Kansas and Europe. He was an individual of the first water, refusing to wear a tuxedo to a charity function, and then announcing he would donate the rental cost to the cause, typing first/final draft copy to put in the mail minutes before deadline ... there are doubtlessly hundreds, even thousands, of stories about Ted Sturgeon, ranging from the humorous to the incredible. The following is from Samuel Delaney's novella EMPIRE STAR (spoken by the Lump to Comet Jo, concerning poet Ti Ty Lee): "You will find, during your reading, Jo, that certain authors seem to have discovered all the things you have discovered, done all you've done. There was one ancient science fiction writer, Theodore Sturgeon, who would break me up every time I read him. He seemed to have seen every flash of light on a window, every leaf shadow on a screen door that I had ever seen; done everything I had ever done from playing the guitar to laying over for a couple of weeks on a boat in Arransas Pass, Texas." Ted was also plagued by many of the problems which seem endemic to artists, particularly science fiction writers -- writer's block, finances, and irregular lifestyles. During the past year, Ted's health had been declining. Accustomed to perfect health -- not even so much as a sniffle, Ted was hard hit by a series of problems which brought him into the hospital, forced him to carry oxygen, and most recently sent him to Hawaii for healing of his respiratory system. According to members of his family, he died "with the same style and dignity that he lived his life." He is survived by family, friends, and a body of work the likes of which we will not see again. He was a dear, sweet, amazing man, and I'll miss the hell out of him. Daniel P. Dern May 10, 1985 (Note: Some of the above information was cribbed from Sam Moskowitz' profile on Theodore Sturgeon from AMAZING STORIES, around 1962. And my bibliographies stop at 1962. So I may be off here and there on minor details. DPD) ------------------------------ From: petsd!cjh@topaz.arpa (Chris Henrich) Subject: Re: Re: Yet another story request Date: 10 May 85 23:37:32 GMT Dale Groves, searching old memories for a story title, writes: > I'm not sure, but this sounds like it could be 'The Space Willies' > - author forgotten - I'll try to look it up 2 nite and mail you > with author and flip side of double. In my recollection, the > prisoner also tried to befuddle his captors with logic problems > such as: > > if one hemisphere of a planet is water and the other > hemisphere is land, is the water half a lake or the land > half an island, given that an island is a body of land > surrounded by water and a lake is a body of water > surrounded by land..... > I think the original story was titled "Plus X" and was by Christopher Anvil. Public opinion seems to favor Eric Frank Russell - I can't check till I get home and look up the cover art in a book of Freas paintings and drawings. Dale is merging this story with "Diabologic" - also published in ASF in 1956. Full-Name: Christopher J. Henrich UUCP: ..!(cornell | ariel | ukc | houxz)!vax135!petsd!cjh US Mail: MS 313; Perkin-Elmer; 106 Apple St; Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 Phone: (201) 758-7288 ------------------------------ From: ukc!csw@topaz.arpa (C.S.Welch) Subject: Re: Space Willies Date: 20 May 85 14:48:06 GMT It would appear that judging from the replies to Sue Brezden's query that "The Space Willies" was published as "Next of Kin" in the U.K. A tentative explanation for this lies in my memories of schooldays past. Around the time I was 10 years old, "willy" was popular slang for a certain piece of the male anatomy. "Willy" is still used today, I think, but always has vaguely juvenile connotations. It is easy to see why a British publisher chose to change the name. Still, "Space Willies" eh? ..... The mind boggles. Chris Welch, Cranfield Institute, U.K. csw@ukc.uucp ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Fri, 10 May 85 16:09:16 PDT Subject: In re: J. Hawthorne's series flame I agree with Jennifer that it is often difficult-to-impossible to figure out in advance that an author has presented us with the first book in a series. When a writer presents us with a series segment that has no real ending and could have "to be continued. . ." on the last page, I feel that he or she has artificially created a book that should not exist. Series segments ought to be able to stand on their own merit. I've twice had the frustrating experience of reading enjoyable first-of- a-series books of the "to be continued. . ." type that were apparently so unpopular with everyone else that the next segment never came. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 May 85 14:45 CDT From: Boebert@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Ghastly Beyond Belief Those of you visting Great Britain this summer (and who get there before the islands sink under the weight of the American tourists) may wish to acquire a copy of the referenced tome, a mildly amusing collection of SF quotes in suitably garish paperback format. It has one piece of inside information: the difference between the US and GB editions of _Life, The Universe, and Everything_. It also has a dismaying number of typos, especially in the dates of movies. Nonetheless, the section on classic SF blurbs is worth the purchase price, at least if the dollar stays strong. ------------------------------ Subject: the horse in Ladyhawke Date: 13 May 85 17:59:38 PDT (Mon) From: Alastair Milne Goliath, the horse in Ladyhawke, is a Frisian (spelling not quite certain), a strain bred in the Netherlands' province of Friesland (which is also famous for its Frisian strain of cattle -- very good meat producers). My sources of information, both professional horse trainers and riding instructors, tell me also that that was just the sort of horse a knight in that kind of armour would ride. They saw the film, and they both loved the horse. They also tell me that black is a typical colour for Frisians. Rather appropriate: a Dutch horse for Hauer to ride. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics Date: 9 May 85 19:03:45 GMT > After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to >say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies. >Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while most >comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. Very few good, >supporting statements are made. Now you must remember that writing >allows much more freedom of expression than does movie making. I >feel that given the restrictions of time, money, available actors >(with talent) and politics (which eventually enter any large >project) what we see is not too bad. Well, I partly agree with you. I've certainly been guilty of potshots at movies I dislike on this net, perhaps more often than I've put in a kind word for those movies I like. It's easier to pan than praise, I think. Still, I must take partial exception to your comments. There are a number of people on the net who are kind enough to take the trouble to do very good reviews of SF movies, reviews that are thorough, well- written, and fair. We may not always agree with these reviewers' opinions, but they always explain their opinions, and I end up feeling better- informed about the films even when I don't agree with the conclusions. The Leepers (Mark and Evelyn) and Peter Reiher, as well as some other worthy critics whose names escape me (sorry) deserve our thanks for their efforts, and they have mine. I also think you give the filmmakers too much slack. Sure, there are many difficulties encountered in making good films, but it remains true that many SF films come out badly because they're just bad art. Many are made for the quick buck, many are made by people who are quite ignorant of science fiction, but too arrogant or unconcerned to find out about it before making their sci-fi trash. Look at many of the SF films of recent years: SF is popular these days, and a lot of these films had the necessary time, money and talent to be good. Even so, not all of them were. Consider DUNE; consider THE BLACK HOLE; consider how often Hollywood has chosen the good old remake, when there are dozens of classic SF novels crying to be made into films. I don't think all the abysmal failures can be written off as due to the inevitable difficulties of filmmaking. The fact is, too many producers neither know nor care what makes a good film. Their only concern is to make sure-fire box-office winners, and their shortcomings as artists are often most apparent with SF films, because they see SF as a trash genre, mostly for the kiddies and teens. > My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not >putting its heart and soul into SF. No matter what they try, it >gets torn apart by SF 'fans'. Nothing is good enough, nothing is >acceptable. No, not really true. An example: STAR WARS was at first seen by Fox as middle-weight Summer fare which would at best turn a small profit. It originally had a small promotional budget, and opened at minor locations. It was only because Lucas had Charlie Lippincott running around to all the SF cons for a year before it opened that the movie took off as it did, in my opinion. SF fans were waiting for that film with their mouths watering because of the presentations at the cons, and this was why the lines ran around the block when the film quietly opened. It was only after the studios saw this initial enthusiastic reception that the film was given a big "premiere" at the Chinese, and a big promo budget. Most SF fans *like* STAR WARS, a *lot* (Ellison notwithstanding), and while we would also like to see some more serious SF films, we're willing to recognize quality when we see it. >If I was a movie producer and read this digest, I wouldn't even >attempt SF. I'd get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a T-shirt, and >be assured to make money without anyone noticing the plot (or lack >of). What I find truly ironic is that many of the producer's "sure- fire" formula films actually bite the big one at the BO. If these potboilers really *were* guaranteed money-makers, I'd be a little more inclined to excuse the low level of artistry that too often characterizes Hollywood films. But since this is not so, I'll still maintain that the major problem is that many producers are Philistines, and too stupid to even realize that. They think the average moviegoer has as little taste as they do, but that's not (quite) true. > I'd like to see more constructive comments; remove the >clothespins from your noses and point out the good parts, the >creative and original ideas, the novel approaches. Don't be in >such a hurry to jump on the bandwagon of critics that recognition >is forgotten. Support for what the industry does right may create >more progress and generate more creative ideas than continuous, >boring and tiresome criticisms. Partly true; mea culpa. But part of encouraging better films is also not to let them get away with junk and sloppy seconds. If we're not willing to call a spade a dirty old shovel, how will the schlockmeisters ever realize we're not satisfied with garbage? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 May 85 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #162 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 162 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & SF Poll (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Criticizing (2 msgs) & Authors in Person ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 9 May 85 23:49:24 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >It is Bad Form for an author to respond to negative reviews. > >However, I am into bad form these days. > >The thing is, there were a few points that just made me itch to >answer, so I'm going to scratch the itch. I hope you don't mind. Mind? Actually getting a reply from someone who has been published, talking about a review of his work? Why should I mind? >Absolutly not! There are only three possible sequels that I can >see: First, the book of Job. No thanks, Heinlein covered it. >Certainly not the same way I would have, but he did. In any case, >this would have been a short story or a Novelette, which, as they >said in Monty Python and the Holy Grain, "Isn't my idiom." Second, >the Passion. Yeah, I could, but I'm just not interested. The >point of the book was NOT to offend anyone, though I'm willing to >if necessary. Doing the Passion WOULD be offensive, and I just >don't have enough interest in it to justify it. The third >possibility for a sequal is the appocalypse. Yeeeech! I almost >killed myself doing the research for HELL. Do you have any idea >how much appocalyptic literture I'd have to wade through to do a >competent sequal???? No way!!! Good. It looked frighteningly like a sequel was pending, probably a rewrite of Genesis. As for offending anyone, I'm offended, but let me make clear the reasons. The book clearly intends to be a retelling of the pre-creation mythos which developed in medieval Europe from some Jewish and Gnostic traditions. This mythos was adapted by Milton when he wrote Paradise Lost. Now, the things that offend: First, it will offend any orthodox Jew because the Name of God is not supposed to be written casually, and never ever is it supposed to be destroyed (treated as trash). Those names have meanings and they can add to the cognitive dissonance. "Satan" means "adversary" for instance. It will offend just about any educated Christian. There are several points of basic theology which you tweaked with. First, the reduction of God from the absolute to "just" another angel. Second, the denial of the trinity inherent in the existence of Yeshua as you described it. Third, the creation of Yeshua as an entity well after everything else in Heaven, and the very sick personality which you ascribed to him. >> ... My real complaint, however, is that the choice was the >> OBVIOUS one. If you want to make it tragic, take the cheap way, >> make Satan the good, honorable one who refuses to go along with >> the duplicitous and rather foolish Y*hw*h. And of course God is >> "just another angel" and Yeshua is the last created angel, rather >> than the coequal or even the first created. Yawn. > >Okay, here we go. If this is what you took from it, I didn't do my >job. This is unquestionably a flaw. But, for the sake of >discussion, I'll say this: What you describe was exactly what I was >trying NOT to do. Satan admits in conversation with Beelzebub, >toward the end, that Yaweh had been RIGHT, that his decisions were >correct and that he, Satan, was wrong. What he admits to Beelzebub, and what the rest of the angels do not grasp, is that the story which was concocted with Abdiel's collaboration was a true one as far as it went; that Satan was explicitly created BY Y*hw*h as were the others. That was the political linchpin on which everyone else organized around Satan, that and the creation of Yeshua. The "untruth" is that there was no planned, deliberated, careful creation of ANYTHING (according to your own descriptive interludes) until the existence of an area large enough to live in and (sort of) relax in had been established. Y*hw*h did not believe this to be the case; he accepted this dishonesty as necessary and followed through with it. God as Richard Nixon. Since this theme predominates among the ancient and current Gnostic philosophies, and it is just too easy to do, I got the idea that this was a cheap shot. >I never did buy that anyone with Satan's intelligence could have >revolted against an omnipotant God. So, why did it happen? I >think there are as many holes in my approach as in the traditional >one, but they are different holes. However, I don't see where it >was "cheap." I went over and over that manuscript, doing my best >to make sure there were no cheap shots, or any actions motivated by >stupidity. If Y*hw*h has the power to OBSERVE (and probably to communicate) at a distance, why would he believe Abdiel rather than using his own power to investigate the claim? For that matter, as to why anyone would revolt against an omnipotent God, try, ignorance of the true nature of that omnipotence, pride in one's own tremendous power, the simple refusal to obey. You touched on THAT topic very nicely and I really thought that would be the nature of the tragedy, the tension between obedience and free choice. As for omniscience. You granted Y*w*h the power to find out anything; this was not automatic but rather seemed more like traditional Angelic Knowledge. True omniscience consists of automatically KNOWING. >If I had succeeded, you wouldn't have come away with the opinion >you did, yet I can't see where I failed. Yaweh was drivin by love, >Abdiel by fear, Satan by indecision, and Beelzebub by loyalty. If >there was anyone in the entire book who really knew what was going >on, it was Lilith, but she was too lacking in self-confidence to >take the necessary steps. Y*w*h was driven by love and anger and the desire for survival. Abdiel was driven by fear, by greed for power, and by his immaturity. Beelzebub was pretty much loyalty incarnate, hence the doggy form; Satan was paralyzed by indecision but driven by ignorance and by stubborn pride. At least, that was what I perceived. >No, Yaweh was never evil. He was forced into evil actions, as was >Satan, by his own failings. The real flaw in the book (I say its a >flaw because very few people have picked it up, so I obviously >didn't bring it off) was this: Abdial's actions didn't matter. If >there had been no Abdial, things would have proceeded in almost >exactly the same way. In some sense, that was the point of the >book, so in that sense, the book failed. I take consolation in the >number of people who have enjoyed it anyway--to me, a book's >"point" is secondary to its enjoyment value. This is one reason >that I like C. S. Lewis and don't like George Orwell--even though I >disagree with them to same extent. If there had been no Abdiel, then there would have been no lies, no murders in Heaven, and the tension would have to have developed along the lines of Satan and Y*w*h trying to convince each other of their respective positions. I didn't LIKE Abdiel but I do think he was crucial in the development of the plot you wrote. As for "never evil" once again we disagree. AS YOU DEFINED THE SITUATION it was wrong for Y*w*h to resort to coercion and the choice to do so was morally wrong. How does one persist in a course of action which is admittedly "evil" without accepting that evil and, in fact, BECOMING evil? A "lesser of two evils" is still an evil. There was lots of room there for further exploration. The real problem with the story was that you were writing in a minefield. Nearly every american has SOME preconceptions about the Judeo-Christian beliefs and therefore will find SOMETHING wrong with a story where their own preconceptions have to be reconciled to the story. This is a LOT of the reason I dislike the book, but I have tried to keep my objections on a basis of literary analysis. >There. It was probably stupid to write this, but maybe you hit me >where it hurt. In any case, I will repeat, it is a pleasure to be >read and reviewed by people who actually READ the book, and have >something to say about it, even if the review is negative. > -- SKZB My apologies and touche'. Your book hit ME where it hurt. I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of Jhereg and Yendl at the local Powell's Books. Hutch ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: The Canonical SF collection Date: 10 May 85 22:34:38 GMT freeman@max.UUCP (Jay Freeman) writes: >Add to recommendations of recent good SF: > >David Brin's _Sundiver_; >Frederick Pohl's Heechee triology -- _Gateway_, > _Beyond_the_Blue_Event_Horizon_, and > _Heechee_Rendezvous_; >Dean Ing's _Systemic_Shock_ and _Single_Combat_; >John Ford's _The_Final_Reflection_ A couple of years ago net.sf-lovers ran a poll of the "best" SF which i found very useful in rounding out my SF collection. Unfortunately these crazy authors have not stopped publishing good stuff and being only human i can't read all the new material. What i propose is an update to bring the Canon up to date. Please send me **mail** if you have a group of books to recommend; i shall collate the books with the highest number of votes and post to the net in about a month's time (depending on response). I strongly recommend mail responses since as we all know things get a little heated when people post the "best" thing since sliced bread. The books aren't necessarily restricted to the very recent since presumably there are people who haven't picked up all of the classics and would be interested in at least hearing about them. If anyone has an electronic copy of the last such poll please mail it to me (i only have a hard copy). Thanx. greg. Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: Re: The Canonical SF collection Date: 10 May 85 22:48:17 GMT I forgot to include a proviso in my last posting (about preparing a canonical list of SF). Here it is. If you're going to send in recommendations please include the book's classification (hard science, fantasy, S&S, historical etc.) and a short note explaining why you think it should belong in such a collection. Books without such information will still be included but they'll be placed under "miscellaneous" if i myself am not familiar with them. Thanx again. greg. Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ Date: Fri 10 May 85 11:09:12-EDT From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics From Mark Leeper: > I know I am not the only person that this is aimed at, but I am >probably one. You're right...but I do consider your reviews to be more accurate and fair than most. They seem to show some thought and analysis behind them, rather than just a first impression being popped out. The targets of my criticism were primarily those who watch a movie and on the following day make comments like "Boy, that wasn't how I would have done it." (in the case of a book adaptation), or "Gees, nobody would wear a space suit like that." These kind of comments are generally opinions (preconceived usually) on how that person would have presented an idea. It doesn't say much about the quality of the movie. That is unless the movie does something gross like forget about space being a vacuum. What REALLY gets me, though, is when one person expresses an opinion like the above, then bunches of people start in on the movie with similar remarks. This gets dragged out into long discussions that, after a few days, makes the movie sound like it didn't do anything right. As Alastair Milne pointed out, people who disagree then become afraid of speaking out for fear of looking gullible or basically stupid. Well I'm gullible *and* basically stupid, so I wanted to get a message to those who sit by in silent disagreement to come out of the closet and DON'T be afraid to point out the GOOD things. At the same time, the critics shouldn't be so close minded as to expect a movie to be the same as their interpretation, and upset if it isn't. And don't send extended flames about things that are a) trivial or b) nonessential to the storyline. So that's what I intended in my original message. You're right Mark, I wasn't entirely right. Some of my comments were exaggerations. All of this has brought up another item of interest. When a movie is adapted from a book, how obligated is the movie to follow the story? With the kinds of restrictions I mentioned in my last message, a direct correlation of story elements is usually impossible. What if the author of the screenplay believes the story can be improved with some plot (or character) changes? Should it be done? How much? --jd ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet... Date: 11 May 85 05:22:39 GMT O.K. out of the closet and at 'em. I Liked 2010. And I didn't NOTICE any horrendous mistakes. And I never expected it to be up to 2001. What could be? [<==rhetorical] Now, back in the closet. "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Authors in-person Date: 9 May 85 17:07:42 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >> From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) >> >> Maybe most 'big' SF authors are insipid in person - I've only met >> two, Asimov and Varley, and the conversation did tend to be >> rather one-sided, but both seemed quite friendly. > >I've met Varley, and found him a thoroughly delightful >man. I've met a number of authors, and with a few exceptions I've found them to be exceptionally wonderful people. Tops on my list are (not in any particular order) David Gerrold, Julian May, Marta Randall, Greg Bear and Dave Brin. I haven't met Steve Brust yet, but I'm looking forward to it if only to see how he can still put so much verbiage out onto the network and still get novels published... sigh... You have to remember that authors have bad days, and that authors are people. I've seen too many people go up to an author with the look in their eye that says ****AUTHOR**** -- good way to kill off any conversation is to moon and burble at anything they say. Unless the author can walk on water (and I reserve that to RAH at this point...) then pretend that they are people who have to pay bills and mow the grass just like the rest of us. If you want an authors perspective (not ALL authors perspective, fortunately) Harlan Ellison has an essay in 'Sleepless Nights on the Procrustean Bed' that tells a good story on fan/harlan interactions. The article name just flitted off into the back of my brain, but I'm sure it won't be too hard to find in the book. Besides, you ought to read the whole thing anyway... From the offices of Pagans for Cthulhu: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 May 85 1021-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #163 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 16 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 163 Today's Topics: Books - Benford & Farmer & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Wells & Zelazny, Films - A Program of Science Fiction Shorts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is bits) Subject: Re: Gregory Benford Date: 13 May 85 18:16:32 GMT > -- Josh Susser > /In the Ocean of Night/ is set in the near future, and involves > humankind's first contacts with alien intelligence. As science > fiction, this book is very believable. As a novel, this book is a > work of art. While I was slightly annoyed at the way Benford > chose to end this book,... Benford consistently fails on this point: endings. If you can't end it properly, it's not art, it's not a novel. L S Chabot decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-AMBER!chabot chabot%AMBER.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: ukc!scifi@topaz.arpa (I.P.Gordon) Subject: Re: Riverworld (* SPOILER *2 *) Date: 21 May 85 20:17:07 GMT When I read Riverworld 6 ,but a week ago, I assumed that the computer fixed the grails when it was repaired.This is the only explanation I could think of. Maybe I was 'asleep'when it was explained, it was rather boring. THE REAPER ------------------------------ From: osiris!rob@topaz.arpa (Robert St. Amant) Subject: RAH Date: 14 May 85 22:23:08 GMT I have a lot of respect for Heinlein's writing, but I have some comments that I wonder if anyone else might agree with. I love the first half of Stranger in a Strange Land, and parts of the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Friday, and so on. But when RAH writes about line marriages and free sex and so on, it seems self-conscious and strained. His "old-fashioned" treatment of women also bothers me. For example, in SIASL, Jubal constantly calls his female assistants girls, but when Digby refers to Jill as the little lady, it sets her off. One of Jill's comments: "Nine times out of ten when a girl gets raped it's partly her fault." In the Puppet Masters our hero's fiance is as tough and free spirited as they come, until they get married and she becomes his chattel (exaggeration.) Even Friday bows down before male authority in the end, unless I'm remembering badly. I haven't read anything more recent. Have there been changes? BTW, even with RAH's faults, it's hard to find sf better than his. Rob St. Amant ------------------------------ From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Date: 15 May 85 17:47:46 GMT >> What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS? > > The main problem with Starship Troopers is that it >glorifies war. John Rico, the main character, spends most of the >book watching his buddies get blown away, all the while moralizing >to himself on the necessity of war. It may seem a technical point, but I think ST more glorifies warriors, than war. I would agree that it argues for the necessity of war, but I came away with the impression that it was the military virtues (duty, honor, country) that were supposed to be glorious, not the making of war. >In the future of Starship Troopers, the planetary government >consists exclusively of veterans and only veterans can vote. The >overall theme is that people who do not wish to serve in the >military are social parasites. But didn't Heinlein make it clear that service encompassed many kinds of public service, not just those we usually think of as military? > Heinlein reasons his arguments well, though. The government >of veterans does not survive because it is morally superior to >other forms; it continues to govern because it works. I thought this was a weak point in the argument presented. Heinlein, as the Omnipotent Author, portrayed a sytem as working, and then argued for it on the basis that "it works". I'll grant that this is a legitimate argument for a character in the book to make, but it's meaningless outside the context of the novel. The system worked because Heinlein wrote it that way. >On the whole, it is not nearly as biased and jingoistic as >Farnham's Freehold. In that novel he starts out with a nuclear war >in which the main character, a thin, balding contractor/engineer >(sound like someone familiar?), is determined to survive the war by >hiding in his bomb shelter so that he can go out and "kill those >pigs who killed my country!...I may die, but I'll have eight >russian sideboys to carry my coffin!" or something like that. Alexei Panshin (in HEINLEIN IN DIMENSION, the best study of Heinlein's writings in print) makes the interesting point that Hugh Farnham is almost a parody of the standard Heinlein Competent Man. He has the brains and the skills, but nothing he does in the book works out. He is in effect an anti-hero, a pawn of his environment, not a successful mover and shaker. I wonder along with Panshin if this was Heinlein's intent, or if it just came out that way. >He and his gang are blown into the future where Negros are the >dominant race and whites are slaves, making the point, in >Heinlein's mind, that if there were more blacks than whites in >modern times then they would enslave the whites, etc. > I'm not accusing Heinlein of racism. If it is there, it is >latent. Surely there are no grounds for a suspicion of even latent racism in this plot? Heinlein's point seems clear enough to me: that racism is not a trait of whites in particular, or blacks in particular, but a general human failing. >Really, though, he has written some things that are shameful. If you only mean badly-written, I'd agree, but if you mean the ideas are shameful, I'd be curious which ideas you have in mind. >Sometimes I wish he would listen to himself as much as others >listen to him. He contradicts himself a great deal. Indeed he does, but I wouldn't want to assume he is unaware of this, or that it's unintentional. Heinlein likes to play with ideas. I am often amazed how many people assume that every idea which Heinlein presents in a favorable light must be a dearly-held opinion of the author. Surely the many contradictions suggest otherwise? It's always seemed to me that Heinlein's chief purpose is to stimulate the reader's rational faculties by presenting unconventional or unfashionable ideas positively. It's probable that the ideas represent his own beliefs to some extent, but I'm never really sure. I've always felt that the main purpose of his polemics was to invite the readers to exercise their minds by disputing with him mentally while reading, and not necessarily to insist that we accept the notions. >Heinlein is self-indulgent, hackneyed, and opinionated, but he is >still writing with the insight and sensitivity has made him one of >the three great s.f. writers. Hopefully, he will do as he has >always done: Tell everyone to go to hell and write what he wants to >write. Hear, hear! Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: The Man Who Could Work Miracles Date: 13 May 85 23:09:13 GMT >From: Barry Margolin > >> From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) >> Subject: GREAT SF STORIES (1939) >> >> ... There is even a reference in the story to a similar story >> in the film THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES. ... > >Just to set the record straight, the film TMWCWM is based on the >short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named >H.G. Wells. The story is actually very short (about five pages), >and quite enjoyable. I read it about eight years ago while leaning >against the library stacks. I had previously seen the film, and it >is a good adaptation. > barmar FLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAME H.G. Wells unknown??? When and where were you born??? To speak of one of the founders of modern SF like this is ridiculous. Many of his stories (The Time Machine - it invented the time-travel genre, War of the Worlds - better written and more exciting + logical than any of its successors) stand up today better than the forgotten work of later writers. FLAMEOFF The film of WOTW (1950s) is a fair attempt at moving the story from the English Home Counties to California -try it. Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ Date: Thu 16 May 85 03:27:55-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Trumps of Doom Ok. I read it. I liked it. A lot. The back cover says that Zelazny is already at work on the next one. This is a good thing, because otherwise I would have to take up painting and trump into his living room to persuade him that this should be a priority item. While this is not quite as bad as Jack of Shadows, where Jack is not only falling off of a cliff but it is ambiguous as to whether or not he hits bottom, it is a pretty sadistic place to end a book. --Rob ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: A Program of Science Fiction Shorts Date: 10 May 85 18:49:32 GMT I just saw a program of science fiction/fantasy short films at a local revival theater. A couple I'd seen before, a couple I'd heard of, and the rest were new to me. As might be expected, they were a mixed bag. "It's an OK Life" is an animated short chronicling the life of a man born in 1999. It's brief, fairly funny, indifferently animated, and painless. "Sam's Arcade" is a Canadian film, product of the infamous Film Board of Canada. Sometimes it seems to me like they'll produce anything if the animation technique is even moderately innovative. That is the only reason I can see for "Sam's Arcade". As best I can make out, it's about a fellow who has some slightly sf-toned nightmares when he eats food near bedtime. Years ago, Winston McCay made an interesting animated film on this theme, taken from the Little Nemo comic strip. "Sam's Arcade" isn't at all interesting. It uses a rotoscoping technique somewhat similar to the Eleanor Rigby sequence from "Yellow Submarine", but apparently different enough to gouge some money out of the pockets of Canadian taxpayers. (No flames about the good works of the Canadian Film Board, please. They've done some good stuff, but too much of their output is self indulgence in technique.) "Contact" is a Russian animated film about an alien encountering a human artist out in the country. It's modestly amusing, modestly animated, just plain modest overall. The biggest laugh may come from the film's insistent use of the love theme from "The Godfather", a film I would bet never saw release in the USSR. I'd also bet Nino Rota, who wrote the theme, didn't see a penny for its use in "Contact". The centerpiece of the program, indeed, its reason for existence, was "Futureopolis", a homemade 40 minute science fiction extravaganza. Almost all of it is animated, much of it in pixillation. For those not up on animation terminology, pixillation is a technique in which live actors are photographed a frame at a time. You shoot one frame, the actors move slightly, you prepare for the next shot, shoot one more frame, and so on. At twenty four frames per second, pixillation isn't easy. I'm not quite sure why they chose to use so much pixillation, unless it is for consistency of tone. Much of the film could have been shot as live action, saving a lot of effort. "Futureopolis" cost somewhere between $20,000 and $40,000 to make, and took 9 years to complete. It contains some impressive effects, a lot of pretty good effects, only a few really bad ones. There are also some very funny bits. It is, however, ultimately a cinematic equivalent of Dr. Johnson's dancing dog: the remarkable thing about it isn't that it's good, but that it works at all. I doubt if $40,000 dollars has been made to go so far for quite some time in a film, but the ideas behind the film are weak. It's meant to be sort of a Buck Rogers spoof, but those making it know much more about art and special effects than they do about writing. The hard core science fiction film fan will definitely want to watch for "Futureopolis". Others will probably enjoy it well enough if they stumble across it, but shouldn't worry about missing it. "Highrise" is another pointless demonstration of good special effects. A spacecraft rips a skyscraper out of the ground and drops it in the middle of the desert, nearly crushing a parched man crawling along looking for water. It's very short and the effects are pretty good. "The Plant" is one of the films I've seen before, and I commented on it in this newsgroup about a year and a half ago. Briefly, it's the story of a plant that takes over a man's house. Well worth seeing, as it is wittily told. "Nun Fu" has an irresistable title and a neat pseudo-sf premise, set up in a lengthy precredit crawl which had the audience in hysterics. Unfortunately, the inventiveness flags quickly and the film lasts much too long. A couple of martial artist nuns try to wrest a briefcase from each other. The idea is funny for three or four minutes, but the film drags it out another ten minutes, and tries to get laughs time and again from having one of the combatants return from seemingly fatal wounds to take another shot at it. None the less, any film with this title which claims to have been shot on location at the Vatican and which lists Travis Bickle as the religious advisor can't be all bad. "Cambium" is a weird, brief series of strange images. In some ways it is reminiscent of "Eraserhead", perhaps in part because it is in black and white. I didn't understand it, but it was interesting. Since it's very short, I doubt if anyone will be much put out by it, unless the odd symbolism is deciphered by someone and turns out to be as offensive as it vaguely hints. The last film was "Quest", which I had also seen before. Directed by Saul and Elaine Bass, this was the only film in the program which really looked professional. It even looked pretty good for a professional film. Saul Bass has been a widely recognized creator of opening credit sequences for films for some years. He also directed "Phase IV", an ecological disaster film involving ants and dazzling scenic design. The effects in "Quest" are first rate, especially the sets which are produced in a variety of ways. The story, by Ray Bradbury, isn't special, but gives many opportunities for interesting effects. The real flaw in "Quest" is that it plays more like an audition film than a work of its own. None the less, the splendid effects and scenic design make it worth seeing. There seem to be plans afoot to make these films into a package which will be sent around the country, in the same manner as various animation collections. If you are deeply into SF, or special effects, or animation, you might want to watch out for the package. None of the films in it are so special that they demand attention, but they make an interesting assortment. The whole runs only about two hours, and most of the films are under ten minutes, so even the low points are bearably short and the concept doesn't outlive its welcome. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 May 85 0909-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #164 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 164 Today's Topics: Books - Allen & Arden & Brust (2 msgs) & Cherryh (2 msgs) & Russell & Robot Stories & Writing About Writing & Sequels, Radio - The Adventures of Jack Flanders, Television - V ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: TORCH OF HONOR by Roger MacBride Allen Date: 16 May 85 03:11:10 GMT TORCH OF HONOR by Roger MacBride Allen Baen, 1985, $2.95. A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper The science fiction war story seems to be making a come-back, and this is one of the new breed. The setting is New Finland, which has been attacked and conquered by the Guardians, a society of neo-Nazis who fled into space in the 21st Century via the newly discovered faster-than-light travel. (Ah, yes, another Nazis-from-space story!) Our protagonist, operating a survey ship in the vicinity, finds himself in the middle of the war to recover New Finland and save the universe (or at least this small portion of it) from the clutches of the bad guys. In general, the book is well-written and the plot moves along quickly. My knowledge of military strategy is not such that I can comment on the accuracy of the maneuvers or the likelihood of the outcomes, but it *sounds* convincing. But this book does have a couple of flaws--one literary, one logical. The literary flaw (if one can call it that) is that it is told in the first person. In a novel of self-discovery, this works out well. In a novel of war, it tends to telegraph the ending--while it's true that the reader *could* be reading the journal of someone who dies in the last chapter, it is much more likely that some of the reader's interest is blunted by the almost certain knowledge that the character *won't* die. The logical flaw is considerably worse. The main character is sent to build a receiver at a certain latitude and longitude. But when he looks it up, it is in the middle of the ocean. It turns out that after the original latitude and longitude lines were drawn, the best location for the capital city was right on the equivalent of the International Date Line (180 degrees longitude). So the colonists re-drew the lines, but Earth was still working from the old maps. The receiver *must* be at this point (because of balancing orbital and coriolis forces or some such), so the protagonists go to great lengths to circumvent this problem. But if Earth was using old maps, they should have been also, and then the point that Earth wanted would have been perfectly accessible! In fact, the point under water was a totally wrong point! In spite of this (and thank goodness it's not the crux of the novel), TORCH OF HONOR is engrossing, and a prime example of the new hard SF. Try it. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 May 85 15:30 PST From: Steve Cohen Subject: Another repeating day story Well having read everyone else's favorite "the same day happens over and over again," here is mine. "One Fine Day" by Leon Arden, published by W. W. Norton & Co. ****** Mini Spoiler ****** A brief description of the plot: Our hero, Robinson Blake, is the only one to realize that the same day (a monday of course) keeps repeating over and over again. After a couple of experiments Rob realizes that he still has control of his life and can actually change his actions during the day, but the next day will still start exactly the same. Realizing what an opportunity this presents Rob decides that it is finally time to seduce his boss' wife (whom he's always had a crush on). Each day he tries a new approach based on what did and did not work the day before, oscillating in on the perfect scenario. Eventually the reasons for the repetition are explained to Rob, also the fact that the repetition will soon end. Rob must now face that fact that the next time he tries to seduce his boss' wife, it will be for real. Mini review: Not for technical sf readers. Zero science, except for the basic premise, but a good story none the less. Steve Cohen ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 10 May 85 22:00:52 GMT > brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: > > >It is Bad Form for an author to respond to negative reviews. > > Now, why is that? It seems to me like you would want to respond > to bad reviews. After all, what kind of response can you make to > good reviews. "Thank you, thank you." Mutual back-patting isn't > that interesting. > > Obviously you don't want to get caught up in arguing about your > books too much -- you'd end up looking juvenile -- but I think a > fair amount of response to negative reviews is warranted. The > author of a book has a very different understanding of the book > than a reader does, because much of what the author understands > about the book comes from internalized thoughts, false starts, > musings, etc., that never show up in print. Negative reviews > often point out where the author failed to completely communicate > his understanding. Writing to clear up these kinds of > mis-communications can be helpful for both the author and the > reader. The point is that the book ought to stand on its own. If I was trying to get something across, it may be of academic interest to someone to know what I was trying to do, but book either made its point or it didn't. Now, it is certainly the case that it might have worked for some people and not for others, or to differing degrees for different people, but an explanation from the author saying "No, no, you missed the point, I WANTED that chapter to be dull and boring to point out the bordom in our lives," or something like that, is not especially helpful. The fact that it took me an entire book to say what I wanted is a good indication that I'm not going to be able to do much better in a few column inches. >> ...The real flaw in the book (I say its a flaw because very few >>people have picked it up, so I obviously didn't bring it off) was >>this: Abdial's actions didn't matter. If there had been no >>Abdial, things would have proceeded in almost exactly the same >>way... > > Prime example, I think. I never considered this point until you > brought it up. Thinking back upon the book, I guess I can see > your argument for this. I don't agree with it. For this to hold, > the forces involved should have been so overwhelming that the > course of events would be unchangable. This simply isn't so in To > Reign in Hell. There are several points in the book where a > conversation between Yaweh and Satan would have cleared the air. > Regardless of whether or not you brought the point across in the > book, it is interesting to hear that this was the point you were > trying to make. A prime example of what I meant. Yes, now you know one of the themes I was playing with. I thought this might be interesting or wouldn't have brought it up. But it doesn't make the book any better. If the reader didn't pick that up on his own, after-the-fact knowledge, interesting as it may be, won't improve it. > Now, the question is: Did you start out with this as your "point" > or did it develop during the course of writing the story? > > Scott R. Turner I don't honestly know. There were a number of things I wanted to play with. Depending on when you ask and the phase of the moon, I will probably say different ones were the "point." I try to play fair with my readers, however. What I mean is, I do my best to let the characters behave as they will, rather than using them as mouthpieces for points I want to make. There are two advantages to this: one, it is, I think, more honest. Two, it allows me, after the fact, to go, "Oh, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if I believe it." I hope this answered your question. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 13 May 85 20:31:43 GMT > I would have said that Abdiel was driven (at the beginning) by > ambition rather than fear, and kept that motivation all the way > until he was discovered by all and sundry to have invented > evil. Maybe. It seems to me that a readers opinion on something like this is at least as legitimate as the authors. But I was playing with an idea taken from Will Shetterly's CATS HAVE NO LORD. He had a character (Lord Noring) who became an excellent swordsman, and was forced into courageous actions, because of his basic fear. I turned that around with Abdiel. His actions (to me, at least) were motivated by wanting to be in a position where he could avoid direct battle with the flux. He schemed to take over Satan's role so he could have a decision-making position, which led to, as you put it, the invention of evil. > Also, wouldn't you say that Mephistopheles (my favorite character, > I think) knew even more about what was going on than Lilith? Yes, but, until nearly the end, he refused to take a side other than that of personal friendship, which doesn't go very far in a revolutionary situation. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: bottom@katadn.DEC Subject: 1 question Date: 13 May 85 14:07:02 GMT What other books relate to Downbelow Station? I'm just about done with that one and find myself ready for more. Thanks in advance......................db ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Eric Frank Russel & 1 question Date: 14 May 85 06:26:29 GMT > And now the question: What other books relate to Downbelow > Station? According to Cherryh, all of her SF (except the Gate series) is all related, but you might want to try "Merchanter's Luck". Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: bottom@katadn.DEC Subject: Eric Frank Russel Date: 13 May 85 14:07:02 GMT Seeing as how Eric Frank Russell has been mentioned I thought I'd throw in my pitch for one of his better books, Men, Martians and Machines. It's been years since I read it but if you can find it read it. db ------------------------------ Date: Tue 14 May 85 11:25:47-PDT From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Request for stories A friend of mine is interested in stories with robots as the main character. She loved _I ROBOT_ by Asimov. Does anyone have suggestions for good stories? Thanks in advance! Aline Norris Baeck SRI, Int'l Menlo Park, CA Arpanet address: Norris@sri-ai ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Writing about writing Date: 20 May 85 04:41:10 GMT > I would also like to point out, however, that in between the > stories [in UNICORN VARIATIONS] he makes comments on writing, and > what he learned, and how to do it, etc. This is also true of his > previous collection, THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMALOT. For anyone > with an interest in writing, fiction writing in particular, these > two books are a must. > -SKZB Good point, and one I neglected in my review of UNICORN VARIATIONS. This raises an interesting point: What are good books to read to learn about writing? Specifically, what books have forewords, afterwords, junk between the stories, etc., that give insight into writing as an activity? May I start this discussion off with some examples? (Why, thank you very much!) Zelazny's THE LAST DEFENDER OF CAMELOT and UNICORN VARIATIONS are particularly good, as Zelazny has written a *lot* of stories, long and short, and mentions how the short effects the long. Harlan Ellison's STRANGE WINE and ALL THE LIES THAT ARE MY LIFE. His earlier collections talk about writing in them, too, but not as well. The introductions in the above two books are better than 99.44% of the fiction I've read. Alas, STALKING THE NIGHTMARE has a fictionalized introduction from Ellison's Middle Messianic Period. There are some good "Tales from the Real World", though, and some of Ellison's fiction, which is fantastic or not, depending on some quirk of the reader's mind. Joe Haldeman's INFINITE DREAMS, with comments as detailed as Zelazny's, but concentrating less on effects on novels and more on the short stuff itself. Your turn. -Paul S. R. Chisholm ...!{pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc ...!{hocsj,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ...!{pegasus,cbosgd}!lzmi!psc ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is bits) Subject: Re: In re: J. Hawthorne's series flame Date: 14 May 85 16:54:06 GMT Again, you're making a big mistake to blame the author for not telling you. It makes more sense to be aggravated at the publisher--they bought it, they probably know whether or not it even has a sequel in manuscript, and they didn't tell you when *they* presented it to you. What are you going to do if the book does say "to be continued", and you're afraid the rest will never come out? Not buy it? Well, then you've certainly done your part to bring about the future you feared. ------------------------------ From: aecom!schwartz@topaz.arpa (Yosef Klavan) Subject: Jack Flanders ???? Date: 16 May 85 01:27:42 GMT About 2 years ago, I heard on National Public Radio, a really terrific sci-fi, sci-fantasy, radio production called 'The Adventures of Jack Flanders', or 'The 4rth Tower of Indvernez : Adventures of Jack Flanders'. It was a really terrific show, and NPR has not been of any help. Any info. on this, name of a book it came from, or anything. Thanks in advance. Yosef Klavan UUCP ...{philabs|cucard|pegasus|rocky2}!aecom!klavan or schwartz ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Wed, 15 May 85 20:59:25 -0200 Subject: Re: request for info on V Cc: zstamir%weizmann.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA > Which brings me to why I wrote this little letter. I missed the > first episode of V, and have no idea who Elizabeth is.... or her > role as the Star Child Although she is adorable and nice to see > each week, I would certainly like to know what's the point of her > being so central to the story. Had this guy seen the first episode, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Those in charge of Israel's single TV station (government, of course) are broadcasting the V soap, which continues where the mini-series left off, but WITHOUT first broadcasting the mini-series. Well, look at it from their point of view: they were so magnanimous in giving us an SF show; if they also allowed us to understand what's going on, we might start taking things like that for granted! Anyway, some Israelis (including myself) are lucky enough to have antennas with the ability to receive Jordan TV; the mini-series was broadcast on Jordan TV a few months ago. They certainly demonstrated better judgment; I kind of enjoyed the mini-series, but couldn't stand more than three episodes of the soap. > Anyway, as you can see from my running off at the keyboard, you'd > say that Israel isn't starving for Sci Fi TV, just GOOD SCI FI, > which considering the amount of good SCI FI TV there is is the > same boat all of you in the STates face. As an Israeli who lived for a while in the states, I can tell anyone who can watch Dr. Who, or Twilight Zone re-runs (in Israel we only got the movie) - we in Israel are definitely NOT in the same boat with you. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 May 85 0948-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #166 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 166 Today's Topics: Books - Baldwin & Zelazny, Miscellaneous - Criticizing (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mhuxt!js2j@topaz.arpa (sonntag) Subject: HELMSMAN by Bill Baldwin (contains very mild spoilers) Date: 16 May 85 17:59:40 GMT Usually I end up sticking to a long list of authors whose works I am familiar with; occasionally, however, a cover blurb or something will pique my interest, and I'll try someone new. Sometimes I'm very disappointed, sometimes not. I have this rather large weak spot for fast-paced space opera, and HELMSMAN looked like one of those, so I tried it. This was a book that I had a *lot* of trouble putting down. The plot was pretty simplistic, but true space opera aficionados are always ready to forgive that. Baldwin does a good job of developing a coherent galaxy-spanning technology for his hero to use in emerging triumphant from one hopeless situation after another. Baldwin's descriptions of space battles are excellent too. The requisite subplot where the hero chases after the woman of his dreams is there too, and contains some very interesting twists. All in all, I found this book incredibly entertaining. Since then, I looked for more of him in the local B Dalton, and found nothing. (not even HELMSMAN) Does anyone out there know of anything else he's written? Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j ------------------------------ Date: 14-May-1985 1438 From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Those who can't do, emulate) Subject: The Possibly Proper Death Litany (aka, apparently, "the Subject: Agnostics Prayer") Brett Slocum asked about "the agnostics prayer" -- well, the correct name is actually "The Possibly Proper Death Litany", and it does indeed come from Zelazny's Creatures of Light And Darkness (an excellent book). That prayer, and several other items from the lips of Madrak the Preacher appealed to me, and after searching the novel several times to find them, I long since gave in and copied them down ... so, here they are: The Possibly Proper Death Litany (deleted) These three quotes taken (regrettably without permission) from the sayings of Madrak the Preacher, a character in Roger Zelazny's Creatures of Light And Darkness. /dave Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua NH 03062 orac::butenhof butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA {allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 11 May 1985 03:09:04-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: SF film criticism > From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA > After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to > say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF > movies. Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while > most comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. Very few > good, supporting statements are made. I disagree. Mark Leeper and Peter Reiher do post very fair, very in-depth reviews to movies. Both of them point out the flaws *and* the virtues in each film they review. Mark especially occasionally rips apart one aspect of the film, and yet give it a recommendation for something else that the film does right. I'd like to post more reviews myself, but I haven't got the time to do what I already do. > Now you must remember that writing allows much more freedom of > expression than does movie making. I feel that given the > restrictions of time, money, available actors (with talent) and > politics (which eventually enter any large project) what we see is > not too bad.... Again I disagree. As they say, "A picture is worth a thousand words". A *truly talented* film maker can do a lot with very little (or even a lot). There are those who may disagree on the following point (I know one --- Hi, DDB! --- who does), but I find Kubrick's A CLOCKWORK ORANGE so far superior to Burgess's original novel it isn't funny. The trouble is that the truly talented film makers generally don't work within the sf/fantasy field. As much as I wish it were otherwise, very few sf films are worthy of mentioning in the same breath as those of the mainstream. > My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not > putting its heart and soul into SF. No matter what they try, it > gets torn apart by SF 'fans'. Nothing is good enough, nothing is > acceptable. Well I enjoy seeing a new SF movie, if it is a > serious attempt to do well, even if it falls short. We see *so* > little of it. WIZARDS was enjoyable, LotR was entertaining, and > 2010 was far better than watching the The Love Boat. Hell, getting poked in the eye with a sharp stick is better than watching THE LOVE BOAT. I enjoy sf/fantasy films, too, even when they fall short. I find many sf films disappointing, yet still enjoyable. I enjoyed both WIZARDS and LOTR up to a point, but if I were to review them, I wouldn't hesitate to point out their flaws. LADYHAWKE has recently been getting some good notice in here, and while I enjoyed the film quite a bit, I found a number of things about it that irritated the hell out of me. I'd still recommend it, though. The trouble is that most sf film makers *aren't* putting their heart and soul into sf. They see that sf films are hot, so they make an sf film. It's got little to do with whether they like or even care about sf or not. > I'm not saying films shouldn't be criticized. If they weren't > nothing would improve. But the impression from this digest is, > "Nothing is good enough for us. You do your best and we'll pick it > to death somehow." Many of the criticisms I've seen are really > ridiculous. If I was a movie producer and read this digest, I > wouldn't even attempt SF. I'd get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a > T-shirt, and be assured to make money without anyone noticing the > plot (or lack of). In some cases, the film maker *did* get Jacqueline Bisset, put her in a T-shirt, and made an sf film. Maybe not Bissett in particular, but take a look at SATURN 3 --- Kirk Douglas and Farrah Fawcett do a nude scene, and the movie hasn't got a plot worth mentioning. The big trouble with Hollywood (and this doesn't apply to just sf films) is that there are few people there with a creative bone in their bodies. Ninety percent of what we get is an imitation of something that was a success. These schlockmeisters see that some film is successful, so they try to give us more of the same thing. The trouble is that they often guess wrong about what it is that made the successful film a success. Take a look at my favorite example. It never occurred to anyone that the reason Carpenter's HALLOWEEN was a success was because of its well- crafted atmosphere of suspense. Carpenter wasn't completely original --- he stole from Hitchcock --- but at least he saw what it was that made Hitch the master that he was, and tried to generate that same effect. Unfortunately, other film makers saw HALLOWEEN's success and figured that what made it so popular was that it had a maniac stalking half-naked high school girls. Voila! The market is flooded with movies about maniacs stalking half-naked high-school girls. And it's only the fans that seem to have realized that the reason STAR WARS and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK turned out so well was because Lucas and Spielberg wanted to make movies that *they* wanted to see, not just to turn a fast buck. SF books are better than sf movies in general because those people who write sf and who publish sf are interested in sf. This is not generally true of those who make sf films. SF films are often failures because Hollywood has a skewed idea about what sf *is*. If you take a look at sf novels written by mainstream writers, you'll often find the same problem. SF books are done by folks who care about sf; sf films are done by those who don't care about sf. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics Date: 12 May 85 02:15:21 GMT >> I know I am not the only person that this is aimed at, but I am >>probably one. > >You're right...but I do consider your reviews to be more accurate >and fair than most. They seem to show some thought and analysis >behind them, rather than just a first impression being popped out. Thank you. As for your statements about the endless arguments about technical details, I find them frustrating at times. Some technical details about space, for example, are fairly well established. Others are still in some doubt. It is clear that you should not hear the spacecraft go by in STAR WARS, but as to whether aero-braking would work in Jupiter's atmosphere, I suspect that nobody is really certain at this point. There may be technical problems with it. It is still a new idea. I don't think that it is really necessary to require science fiction film makers to be right on top of the latest technology. If they make a film consistent with science as she was understood five years earlier, that is fine with me. I have little patience for the people who think that 2010 was technically all fouled up, but who think that Thomas Disch's ON WINGS OF SONG -- in which people fly by singing -- is acceptable as science fiction. Oddly enough, I often think that cinematic science fiction must meet harsher standards than its literary counterpart. >All of this has brought up another item of interest. When a movie >is adapted from a book, how obligated is the movie to follow the >story? With the kinds of restrictions I mentioned in my last >message, a direct correlation of story elements is usually >impossible. What if the author of the screenplay believes the >story can be improved with some plot (or character) changes? >Should it be done? How much? A film maker's first loyalty should be to make a good film. His second should be to be faithful to the source where it does not come into conflict with the first. If it does come into conflict in any but minor ways, perhaps the source material for the film was poorly chosen. More than likely, the source was chosen for its box-office appeal, not because it would make a good film. Now rare if the film that breaks this rule. VICTOR FRANKENSTEIN/TERROR OF FRANKENSTEIN, for example is a dull film. It is only notable because it is the only Frankenstein film that is faithful to the book. But the book was not written to make a good film and it is the wrong book to choose if you really are concerned about being faithful to the source. BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN is a much better film. Actually this is all academic. A film makers first loyalty is to his backers. He has to make a film that people want to see and that does not cost too much too make. That is the reason for most revisions. (Unless you have a David Lynch or a Ken Russell. They want to throw in weird images in the name of art. Funny how in this field, directing films, the best people are the craftsmen, not the artists. But then that probably reflects my own prejudices.) Also, occasionally the film maker wants to make a faithful adaptation but does not have the rights to the story. Sound far-fetched? They are adapting the film but don't have the rights to do the story? Ian Fleming sold only a few of his novels to the films but he sold all of the titles. That is why the James Bond films soured after THUNDERBALL. Little of this really answers your question, I know. I guess I would just repeat that first and foremost a film should be enjoyable and then be as close to its sources as possible. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@topaz.arpa (showard) Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet... Date: 14 May 85 17:17:40 GMT > O.K. out of the closet and at 'em. > > I Liked 2010. > > And I didn't NOTICE any horrendous mistakes. You didn't??? Well, how about this: turning Jupiter into a star means that it will never be dark on Earth, which (according to the speech at the end) means that there won't be any more wars (since obviously all wars arise directly out of fear of the dark?). I find that pretty horrendous, mistake- wise. Also, the obelisk-shaped thingies were not in any way of 1X4X9 proportion, and why was that such a big deal? Etc., etc., etc. > And I never expected it to be up to 2001. What could be? > [<==rhetorical] > > Now, back in the closet. GOOD! --Mr. Blore, the DJ who would not die . . .udenva!showard ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: SF vs. The SCREEN Date: 9 May 85 22:18:19 GMT DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA write: > After reading this digest for about a year and a half, I have to >say I'm upset with the way most everyone complains about SF movies. >Most comments about SF books are neutral to good, while most >comments about SF movies are neutral to negative. Very few good, >supporting statements are made. > > My point is that I don't blame the movie industry for not >putting its heart and soul into SF. No matter what they try, it >gets torn apart by SF 'fans'. Nothing is good enough, nothing is >acceptable. > > I'd like to see more constructive comments; remove the >clothespins from your noses and point out the good parts, the >creative and original ideas, the novel approaches. > > Comments, anyone? Yup. Don't hold your breath. NOBODY yet realizes that SF loses in television or movie format. The best SF simply cannot be visual; it depends on the imagination, and the visual media remove too much of the imagination. Hence, we get V and Battlestar Galactica on TV, and poorly adapted DUNEs on the big screen. (Star Trek almost got past this one; Dr. Who just about does, thanks to the fact that its SFX budget is too low to render a good imagination unnecessary.) Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 May 85 0928-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #165 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 17 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 165 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Brust & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Story Request Answered Finally & The Faces of Science Fiction, Films - The Creeping Horror & The Dungeonmaster (3 msgs) & Rocky Horror Picture Show ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14-May-1985 1441 From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Those who can't do, emulate) Subject: Bio Of a Space Tyrant, Vol 3: Politician I also just finished the new Bio Of a Space Tyrant. For the most part, I agree with richardl@ucbmiro.berkeley (gee, it's really so much nicer to have real names to work with). Specifically, the parallels were overdone. I did not appreciate the train much at all (although the scenes built around it were well done), and I felt he was really pushing his justifications a bit far, just to make Hope's campaign look like an old fashioned back-home whistle-stop tour. I also wasn't too crazy about the self-sacrifice move, however it is consistent. After all, it's not like we have J. Random Schmoe with girls chasing him about trying to kill themselves to save him; we all know that's one of the side effects of Hope's talent (although I could point out a few weak points in that, I won't bother). The two plots were woven together fairly well, and Piers did a good job of keeping the suspense up until the end -- it came together credibly and explosively. Which reminds me, did anybody still wonder where Hopie came from by the end? He seemed to expect that there would be lingering mystery (certainly Hope hadn't figured it out), but I was fairly sure about 2 pages after she showed up and virtually certain long before the end ... While the U.S./U.S.S.R. parallel was somewhat overdone, again the scenes themselves were done well enough -- I liked the enemy Captains playing pool and secretly teaching each other their native languages, and the nice byplay that led to later in the negotiations over the "KAL" incident. Over all, I think it reads about as well as the first two. While I have some lingering dissatisfaction, I enjoyed it enough to wait more or less eagerly for the next. As with the Incarnations of Immortality (arrggh! When are those money-grubbing publishers gonna put out Bearing An Hourglass in paperback, already?), I'll be touring bookstores frequently to check up on the next one ... /dave Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua NH 03062 orac::butenhof butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA {allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-orac!butenhof ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell [SPOILER] Date: 13 May 85 20:11:26 GMT > Good. It looked frighteningly like a sequel was pending, probably > a rewrite of Genesis. > > As for offending anyone, I'm offended, but let me make clear the > reasons. The book clearly intends to be a retelling of the > pre-creation mythos which developed in medieval Europe from some > Jewish and Gnostic traditions. This mythos was adapted by Milton > when he wrote Paradise Lost. > > Now, the things that offend: First, it will offend any orthodox > Jew because the Name of God is not supposed to be written > casually, and never ever is it supposed to be destroyed (treated > as trash). Those names have meanings and they can add to the > cognitive dissonance. "Satan" means "adversary" for instance. Right. I thought seriously about changing some of the names that had meanings--but ALL of the names have meanings. Mephistopheles, for instance, means "dark angel," or "black angel" or something like that. There was just no future in it. But yes, I knew some people would be offended, but it seems just as bad to me to avoid writing something so as not to offend people as to set out attempting to offend people. > What he admits to Beelzebub, and what the rest of the angels do > not grasp, is that the story which was concocted with Abdiel's > collaboration was a true one as far as it went; that Satan was > explicitly created BY Y*hw*h as were the others. That was the > political linchpin on which everyone else organized around Satan, > that and the creation of Yeshua. The "untruth" is that there was > no planned, deliberated, careful creation of ANYTHING (according > to your own descriptive interludes) until the existance of an area > large enough to live in and (sort of) relax in had been > established. Y*hw*h did not believe this to be the case; he > accepted this dishonesty as necessary and followed through with > it. God as Richard Nixon. Since this theme predominates among > the ancient and current Gnostic philosophies, and it is just too > easy to do, I got the idea that this was a cheap shot. In the early stages of Stalin's rule, before the Moscow trials, he was forced into various economic decisions. Rather than saying, "We have been forced to do this bad thing," he said, "We are doing this because it is good." It was this, as much as anything else, that led to the "necessity" of the Moscow trials and the murder of a whole generation of Bolsheviks, the betrayal of the Spanish, etc. Yet his DECISIONS were necessary, not wrong. Satan was unhappy about angels being coerced. Toward the end of the book he admits that the coercion WAS justified and that he was wrong, but he still cannot accept Yaweh's having lied about it. >>I never did buy that anyone with Satan's intellegence could have >>revolted against an omnipotant God. So, why did it happen? I >>think there are as many holes in my approach as in the traditional >>one, but they are different holes. However, I don't see where it >>was "cheap." I went over and over that manuscript, doing my best >>to make sure there were no cheap shots, or any actions motivated >>by stupidity. > > If Y*hw*h has the power to OBSERVE (and probably to communicate) > at a distance, why would he believe Abdiel rather than using his > own power to investigate the claim? This power is reduced almost to the point of non-existence by the lack of flux between waves. Remember how surprised he is that he is able to watch the battle at the Southern Hold? He hadn't expected to be able to use this ability. The reason that he could is the leak created by Michael's sword. This is also the reason Raphael is able to heal Harut. > Beelzebub was pretty much loyalty incarnate, hence the doggy form; Well I'll be...You know, I think you're right. I never thought of that. Hmmm. Unless it was just the reverse. I never did know why I made him a dog (someone has suggested "Lord of the Flies"). Thank you. I like that. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 85 01:55:23 EDT From: Phyllis.Lewis@CMU-SEI Subject: Re: Starship Troopers >What is it that everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS? Well... To those of you who don't like Heinlein's government, the way I read the story, I saw this form of "fascism" as just a possibility -- mere speculation as to what could happen. After all, isn't that what separates _Science Fiction_ from "mainstream" literature? In fact, by way of an aside, Algis Budrys, in the latest _Fantasy & Science Fiction_, which of course is 400km from my keyboard, quotes a founding father of the genre as preferring the title "speculative fiction." So if we don't propose these alternatives, what do we have? Nothing more than mainstream literature with glittering bells and whistles... ...k P.S. No, I'm pretty sure it (Kevin Lewis, wasn't Campbell... borrowing an account...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 16 May 85 04:17:31-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Heinlein I certainly don't agree with the premises of STARSHIP TROOPER, and I refuse to recommend it to people without making them promise to read Haldeman's Forever War. But critics should note that Heinlein himself states that THESE ARE NOT NECESSARILY HIS VIEWS (EXPANDED UNIVERSE, New York, Ace Books, 1980, page I forget and my copy is in another state). In fact, he continues, he was rather surprised at all the furor the book created, and was quite surprised when the book won an award. Yes, Heinlein can be infuriating, is often wrong, and holds views on the military that conflict with my own. But at least the man is willing to think, including reexamining his own views. See the passage in FRIDAY where Janet is talking to her husbands on the subject of enlisting in the army, on Red Thursday. Granted, the book is still quite pro-military, but Heinlein himself was a career military officer until retired for medical reasons. (He was also a peacetime officer as opposed to Haldeman, which may have something to do with his opinions.) Like, flame off, folks. --Rob ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Yet another story request. And the winner is... Date: 15 May 85 18:55:32 GMT Thank you to all who responded to my story request. The story is indeed "The Space Willies" in an ACE double with "Six Worlds Yonder", both by Eric Frank Russell. Armed with information from this group, I found a copy at my local used SF bookstore. Amazingly, it cost only 75 cents! I really appreciate this. I have been wondering about this for years, and finally have the answer. By the way, from the publishing info, I must have read this at the age of 10. I am looking forward to spending some time this weekend rereading it. Thanks again. The net is great! Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: The Faces of Science Fiction Date: 15 May 85 19:04:50 GMT I, too, recently got a copy of THE FACES OF SCIENCE FICTION by Patti Perret ($11.95, Bluejay Books, c1984), and I'll gladly second Tom Crawford's recommendation. It's true that not every one of your favorite writers will be included in the collection, but Perret managed to find most of mine, including Gene Wolfe (who also wrote the introduction), Kate Wilhelm & Damon Knight, R A Lafferty, Theodore Sturgeon, Roger Zelazny, Alice Sheldon (aka James Tiptree, Jr.), George Alec Effinger, Tom Disch and many others. Notable omissions are Robert A Heinlein, Robert Sheckley, Jack Vance, Harlan Ellison, and Stephen King in the U S, and almost no one from across the pond appears to have been represented -- no photos of Clarke, Brunner, Aldiss, Priest, Ballard, etc. Many of the pictures are amazingly good and all are competent; and many of the authors' notes are a joy to read. Don't miss Disch's 'Ode to a Toaster', Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: aecom!schwartz@topaz.arpa (Yosef Klavan) Subject: Creeping Horror or Creeping Terror Date: 14 May 85 23:18:06 GMT Hi, A while back, maybe in the early 50's, an extremely Ultra-Low Tech S.F. movie was made, called either 'The Creeping Horror', or 'The Creeping Terror'. The basic gist of the movie was an alien who came to Earth to destroy humanity. I would greatly appreciate any info on this movie. Has anybody out there in NETLAND ever heard of this infamous classic?? Thank you in advance. REGARDS, Yosef Klavan UUCP .....{cucard|philabs|pegasus|rocky2}!aecom!klavan ------------------------------ From: hyper!dean@topaz.arpa (Dean Gahlon) Subject: Re: the Dungeon Master Date: 14 May 85 23:34:57 GMT > pps-Looking at the ad for the Dungeon Master, I see a small > inclusion that states 'This motion picture is not related in any > manner to the TSR, Inc. game entitled "Dungeons and Dragons" or > any characters therein.' They wouldn't be trying to cash in on > D&D's fame, would they? Naaaah. Actually, that notice was probably prompted by TSR's lawyers trying to ensure that nobody makes improper use of their copyright. ------------------------------ From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (Praiser of Bob) Subject: Re: the Dungeon Master Date: 14 May 85 20:42:23 GMT trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan) writes: >If I had to rate this film, I wouldn't. It was definitely a film >of the 'so-bad-it's-good' genre, but I would recommend that if you >want to see this film, go to a matinee. You won't feel too >cheated. Yes. In fact, that's why I went to see it. >ps-if you do go to see it, also look for the similarities certain >scenes have with the scenes of other major sf films. One from the >Trek III stands out in my mind right now... Don't forget "DragonSlayer," "The Road Warrior", "Prisoners of the Lost Universe" (or some such title, also so-bad-it's-good), and others. I got the impression that the skits were chosen specifically so they could re-use sets from old SF movies. Subject: Rocky Horror Picture Show Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits of it but not it all and as its now been released over here on video, I'd like to try and jog my memory. Also the video soundtrack seems to be mono yet the album soundtrack is, I believe, stereo. Does the the 35mm cinema release have a stereo soundtrack ? Alan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 May 85 1025-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #167 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 18 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 167 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 5 May 85 00:39:52-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 12 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is trying to get to Trufandom.] Chapter Twelve In which Jophan finds a Friend. It took Jophan a much shorter time to leave the City of Serious Constructivism then it had to enter it, and he was soon in the suburbs again. Here there were no advertising hoardings, club buildings or hucksters' settlements. Instead, the district seemed to be an exclusive residential area, entirely composed of enormous wooded estates surrounded by high walls. There seemed to be a limitless number of them, and as the evening wore on, Jophan became very tired. The walls were too high to be climbed, and the gates were all locked, so that try as he might he could find no way to get off the road to make camp for the night. At last he realized that he could go no further, and that he must spend the night as best he could by the side of the road. Huddling up against the wall near one of the entrance gates, he wrapped his tattered garments about him and made himself as comfortable as the hard surface would allow. Some time later he was awakened from a fitful sleep by a great blaze of light in his eyes. In his dazed condition it was a few seconds before he realized that he was staring into the headlights of a huge motorcar which had evidently approached from the direction of Trufandom, and was now halted before the entrance gates. As Jophan watched, the driver got out and unlocked the gates. As he was walking back to his car Jophan called weakly to him. The driver looked round, startled, and then, perceiving Jophan lying against the wall, came over to him. "Hello, young fellow," he said. "Who are you, and what are you doing here?" So faint was Jophan with exhaustion that he could scarcely speak. "...Jophan," he murmured, "Trufandom...Magic Mimeograph...Perfect Fanzine." "Ah, yes," said the stranger understandingly. "You have come a long way and you have a long way to go. You will be the better off after a good meal and a night's rest." He picked Jophan up and carried his limp body to the car. Then, stopping only to relock the gate behind him, he drove at high speed up the long entrance drive. Jophan could not see much of the house in the darkness, but the bedroom to which he was carried was large and luxuriously furnished, and the meal which he was served was tastefully cooked and sumptuously served. Feeling comfortable and safe for the first time since he had embarked on his journey, Jophan fell into a deep sleep. Next morning he awoke late and found his way down to the breakfast room. His host had evidently breakfasted, and sat before a cheerful fire with a writing machine on his knees. As Jophan entered he put the machine down and rose to greet him. "Good morning, Jophan," he said. "Let me introduce myself. My name is Profan . . . you may have heard of me?" "I have, indeed." said Jophan, awed, for before him stood the author of many of the books telling of faraway places and other times which he had read during his life in Mundane -- a life which already seemed unreal to him. He attempted to express his admiration and gratitude, but Profan waved the latter aside and motioned him toward the laden breakfast table. When Jophan had finished breakfast and joined his host beside the fire he again attempted to express his thanks, but the other would hear none of it. "It is nothing," he said. "I am glad to be able to help any pilgrim on his way to Trufandom. As long," he added wryly, "as they do not descend on me in too great numbers." This was the first resident of Fandom Jophan had encountered who had really encouraged him in his quest, and it put him in good heart. "Am I then," he asked, "getting near to Trufandom?" "You have done about half the journey," said Profan, "but since you have come this far I have no doubt you will complete it. I wish I could take you there, but as you know, each Neofan must make his way by his own unaided strength." "But you know the way, then?" asked Jophan eagerly. "Indeed, yes," said the Profan. "I go there for a visit at least once a year. This, as you must know, is a colony for those who wish, and can afford, to travel frequently to both Trufandom and Mundane, and who have accordingly settled here, midway between the two places. Some of us, indeed, came here from Trufandom, for occasionally it happens that a True Fan will forsake the high and dedicated life of Trufandom for our more worldly community. They make their choice, as it were, between the Sacred and the Profan." He smiled at his little joke, and Jophan laughed politely. "I will tell you all I can about your route," continued Profan, "but I should first warn you that any advice I give you will be of no avail unless you continue to exercise the courage and discretion which have brought you so far, and unless you keep your Shield bright and shining. For you have many dreadful periods yet to face." "I shall remember," said Jophan. "Well," said Profan, "the first of these perils is the Desert of Indifference, which begins at the borders of this community and stretches for a good distance unbroken save by an occasional oasis. To carry enough food and water to cross this vast expanse is beyond the powers of any Neofan, so that you must enlist the aid of native porters from the strange tribe that dwells on the fringes of the desert. On the far side of the desert is a huge rocky defile, known as the the Canyon of Criticism, through which lies the only path to the plateau above where stands the Tower of Trufandom. Further I cannot help you, for the more subtle temptations and perils of the last stages of the journey assume a different form for each Neofan." "Is that all?" asked Jophan. "All?" said Profan, amused. "I admire your spirit. But alas, it is not. On each side of your path, far away but always accessible, are the green, enticing regions known as the Glades of Gafia. Perpetually you will be pursued by the insidious temptation to turn aside and rest awhile there. But, should you do so, there is a danger you will be unable to face the effort of resuming your journey, or that, roaming forgetfully though the beckoning glades, you will find yourself back in Mundane. Far better to proceed with moderation so that you will not be driven to the Glades to recuperate from too-strenuous effort. Profan went on to give Jophan much other helpful advice, to which Jophan listened respectfully. The he thanked his host again and prepared to resume his journey. Profan went with him to the gate to wish him luck, and then stood watching Jophan march sturdily down the road. Once Jophan looked back to wave a final goodbye. He fancied that he detected in the other's face an emotion which, in the case of one less fortunately situated, he would have taken to be envy. But this cannot have been so, any more than the raising of Profan's hand to his eye can have been to wipe away an involuntary tear of regret. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ Date: Thu 9 May 85 00:09:57-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 13 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is on his way to Trufandom.] Chapter Thirteen In which Jophan recruits Native Bearers. Much refreshed by Profan's hospitality, Jophan stepped out briskly, and by noon had left the region of great estates far behind. He was now in open country again, a region of dry scrubland interspersed with bare sandy patches which became more frequent as he journeyed on. As the country became more desolate he kept an anxious eye open for the tribesmen whom Profan mentioned. Then, as he was on the point of turning back to look more carefully, he espied a faint column of smoke rising into the still air from some distance to his left. Threading his way through the scrub in that direction he was greatly relieved to come upon a group of tents which he knew must be a village of the strange natives. The encampment contained several dozen of the Subrs, as Profan had said they were called, all sitting perfectly still on the ground before their tents and staring blankly into the distance. They seemed to be a sturdy and honest race, but with a strangely impassive cast of countenance, and their faces showed no sign of emotion when Jophan made his appearance. Nevertheless, he strode into the center of the village and greeted them cheerily, expecting that they would spring to their feet and cluster around him. But instead they continued to ignore his presence completely. Surprised, Jophan raised his voice and greeted them again, announcing his name and the purpose of his visit. But still the strange people seemed unconscious of his existence. Indeed he would have judged them to be both blind and deaf had he not noticed one of them raise his eyebrows slightly when Jophan had finished speaking. Incensed at their apathy he lost his temper and flew into a rage, jumping up and down and waving his arms to attract their attention, and then launching into a loud and impassioned discourse, describing in detail the importance of his visit and the impossibility of fulfilling it without their help. At this a few Subrs turned their eyes curiously in his direction, but none of them showed the slightest sign of answering his call. In desperation Jophan went up to the native who had appeared to be the first to notice him, and pleaded with him for an explanation of the tribe's reluctance to cooperate. The Subr looked indifferently at him and spoke. "Many Neofen come," he grunted. "Many seek help. Many leave us in desert, our help wasted. You show difference." For a moment Jophan could not understand what he meant, and then he realized he was being called upon to demonstrate that he had the necessary stamina and strength of will to cross the desert. Resignedly, he began to run round and round the encampment. The afternoon wore on, and Jophan continued to run round the encampment, watched impassively by the Subrs. Every now and then he would stop and plead with them again, and each time they evinced a little more interest. Finally one of them rose and nodded to Jophan. Still without a word he picked up a skin water-bottle, and a package of food and stood waiting. His example was followed by several others until a small group had collected at Jophan's side. He thanked them gratefully, and the small expedition started off into the desert. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 May 85 1031-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #168 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 18 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 168 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 9 May 85 00:10:32-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 14 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is in search of Trufandom.] Chapter Fourteen In which Jophan starts across the Desert of Indifference. As they progressed ever farther into the wilderness the hot sun and scorching sand began to take their toll of Jophan's strength, and he realized more fully the magnitude of the task before him. He also came to appreciate the virtues of native porters. Although the Subrs preserved their unnatural silence, uttering no word either of praise or condemnation of Jophan's behavior, whatever it might be, they showed their feelings clearly enough by their actions. Twice when Jophan, unnerved by the hardships of the desert, spoke tactlessly to them or made some error of judgment, some of them quietly left the expedition and were never seen again. But, on the other hand, whenever he exhibited his better qualities, reinforcements appeared to arrive from nowhere. Thus, by studying their reactions carefully, he was able to increase the strength of his party by quite a substantial number. It would have faired ill with him had he not done so, for as day followed day the strain of the journey began to tell on him. The heat of the sun seemed to dry up the very marrow of his bones, and its setting brought only momentary relief, for with nightfall the air became bitterly cold, and he passed many sleepless nights shivering under the meager protection of his blanket. The loyal support of the sturdy Subrs was a great comfort to him, but willing as they were they could carry only a certain amount of their dried food and it seemed to accord ill with his constitution. It was of a tasteless and insipid nature, affording only the merest sustenance and gravely deficient in energy-producing qualities. Jophan, though in no danger of actual starvation, began to grow weak and faint of purpose, and at times his eyes strayed longingly to the green Glades of Gafia to be seen clearly in the distance. So it was that when after many days the party came upon the first sign of other life in the desert. It had appeared in the distance to be a small hut, but on approaching more closely Jophan saw that it was actually a species of altar before which crouched a pale and sickly Neofan. He seemed to be in the process of muttering some prayer or incantation, and Jophan waited patiently until he had finished before addressing him. "Good day, friend," he said politely, when the Neofan seemed to have completed his mysterious rites. "My name is Jophan, and I am on my way to Trufandom to obtain the Magic Mimeograph, so that I may publish the Perfect Fanzine." "Good day, Neofan," said the other, somewhat superciliously. "My name is Sycofan, and I am on a similar errand. I trust you will set up your altar at a reasonable distance from mine." "Altar?" asked Jophan, surprised. "What for?" "Why, to invoke the BNFicent spirits," said the other condescendingly. "Surely you don't imagine that you can cross the desert without their help?" "I did not know it was possible for a mere Neofan to have any intercourse with the BNFs until he reached Trufandom," said Jophan wonderingly. "Why, of course it is," said the other. "You must--" At this point there came a blinding glow of light above the altar, and Sycofan threw himself on his knees and began beating his head on the ground. In a few moments there was a loud clap of thunder, and a small solid object fell on the altar and rolled off on to the ground. Jophan remained erect and gazed at the phenomenon. "There!" said Sycofan smugly, snatching the object up and showing it to Jophan. It seemed to bea sort of thin pancake or waffle, rolled up like a scroll of paper. "What is it?" asked Jophan. "It's called a manna-script," said Sycofan, devouring it greedily. Jophan watched enviously until the other had swallowed the last succulent morsel. "I suppose you will be resuming your journey now?" he asked. An uneasy expression crossed the other's face. "Er...no," he said, rather shamefacedly. "I think I shall wait here until my strength is built up. The manna-scripts need a great deal of praying for, and I haven't enough of them yet." Jophan looked at Sycofan's weak face and privately decided that it was doubtful if he would ever complete the journey to Trufandom. After pondering the matter for some minutes he came to a conclusion. "I was told," he said earnestly, "that the journey to Trufandom is one that can be accomplished only by a fan's unaided efforts, and I believe this to be true. I cannot believe that if the BNFicent spirits give aid to one who merely asks it they would withhold it from one who shows that he deserves it. I urge you to leave your altar and come with me." "Why, you're only a Neofan," sneered the other. "Why should I associate with you when I can have the help of BNFs?" "Even they were once Neofen like me," said Jophan quietly. "Yet they are wise and will not waste their gifts. You may find," he warned Sycofan gravely, "that they will not continue to feed you indefinitely." But Sycofan would not abandon his parasitic existence, and instead promptly embarked on another session of prayer. Shaking his head regretfully, Jophan left him and resumed his journey. Before he had gone much further, Jophan was both delighted and relieved to find that his surmise had been correct. To the accompaniment of a blaze of light and clap of thunder a bulky manna-script fell beside him; and before disappearing the light moved on toward Trufandom as if in encouragement. Thereafter, the manna-scripts fell with increasing frequency during the remainder of his journey so that he had no longer any cause to worry on the score of food. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ Date: Thu 9 May 85 00:11:18-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 15 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is crossing the Desert of Indifference on his way to Trufandom.] Chapter Fifteen In which Jophan enters the Region of Oasis. But Jophan's difficulties were by no means at an end. The scorching heat by day and the bitter cold by night made sleep almost impossible, and as time went on he became more and more exhausted. But he staggered on dauntlessly, searching ceaselessly through red-rimmed eyes for some sign of the end of this terrible desert. Shortly before nightfall one day they came upon an oasis. Jophan let his feeble limbs carry him into the welcome shade of the trees and lay down to rest for the night, observing as he did so a flock of gaily-plumaged birds flitting to and fro among the trees, to the accompaniment of their sweet song. It sounded like "Bu! Bu!" Idly he asked one of the Subrs what the birds were called. "Bu-birds," replied the Subr laconically. Smiling quietly to himself at the ingenious reply, Jophan went to sleep. Whether it was the soothing song of the birds, or the fact that the oasis retained its heat longer than the open desert, Jophan slept unusually well. Nevertheless, he realized when he awoke next morning that he was in no fit state to resume the march. His limbs were stiff and enfeebled, and it was all he could do to raise his head and look about him. He knew he would have to rest awhile here in the hope of regaining his strength. As he was about to lie back again, however, he noticed just a few feet away from him a beautiful translucent egg, which must, he realized, have been laid by one of the Bu-birds during the night. It occurred to him that it would make a welcome addition to his diet, and, reaching out painfully for it, he pierced a hole at each end and raised it to his mouth. As the first mouthful of the liquid passed his lips Jophan was almost shocked in his astonishment. This was clearly no ordinary egg. The fluid it contained was cool, refreshing and intoxicatingly delicious to the taste. With each drop Jophan felt new energy flooding into his body. When the egg was finished he jumped to his feet and began to run eagerly round the oasis looking for more, so intent on the search that he scarcely noticed how quickly his tiredness had been replaced with boundless energy and enthusiasm. Soon he opened all the eggs he could find and poured their content into one of the empty water bottles. Then he called his party together and strode confidently into the desert at their head. During the days which followed he found that when his energy began to flag all that was necessary was to take a draught of the life-giving fluid. Instantly his vigor and enthusiasm was restored. Furthermore he had apparently reached an area of the desert where oases were plentiful, and each morning he usually collected a sufficient quantity of "Egg o' Bu," as he now affectionately called it, to sustain him for the day's journey. He was now able to dispense almost completely with ordinary food and water, and would indeed have been prepared to do without the help of the Subrs had that been necessary. The only ill effects he noticed were that over- indulgence in the elixir was inclined to produce a species of intoxication and a painless but unsightly swelling of the head. These he resolved to guard against as carefully as he could. Jophan now began to make very rapid progress, and with each day the change in the character of the desert became more pronounced. The days were cooler, the night warmer, and oases increasingly numerous. Mirages began to appear of the high mountains of Trufandom, and though he was disappointed each time on finding they were illusions, he consoled himself with the thought that they indicated he was approaching his goal. At last his patience was rewarded. One morning he breasted a long, low ridge of sand-dunes, to see before him, far too clear to be a mirage, a stupendous mountain range stretching as far as the eye could see. Beyond those mountains, he knew with a thrill of awe, must lie the land of Trufandom. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue 14 May 85 00:13:28-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 16 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is seeking the route to Trufandom.] Chapter Sixteen In which Jophan enters the Canyon of Criticism. Jophan now pressed on with redoubled energy, and by evening he could plainly see a deep rocky cleft leading into the mountains. This, he knew, must be the Canyon of Criticism, the only route through the Mountains of Trufandom. He resolved to fortify himself with a night's sleep before attempting this new peril, and spent the night at an oasis. Next morning, having partaken cautiously of the Egg o' Bu lest it should foul his perceptions, Jophan set out for the entrance to the Canyon. As he approached it he noticed other Neofen converging on the point from all directions. They rushed past, wild-eyed and eager, and plunged into the Canyon. They had obviously partaken too freely of Egg o' Bu, for their eyes were glazed, their steps unsteady, their heads unnaturally swollen, and their clothes and Shields neglected and dirty. Reluctant as he was to let them overtake him, he took thought of his previous experience and the warnings he had been given. He polished his Shield of Umor hastily, checked his provisions, and only then set foot cautiously into the Canyon. The path proved to be along the side of the Canyon rather than at its foot. After he had travelled some distance Jophan noticed that while the ground still fell away sharply to his left, the cliff on his right had gradually merged into a more gentle slope. Along this the path split into several smaller paths which wound their separate ways along the mountainside. As he picked his way along over the rougher ground he heard a clatter of falling rock in front of him, and looked upwards in time to see several small stones bounding toward him over an overhanging boulder. Hastily he brought up his Shield and covered himself with it. Most of the stones bounced harmlessly off it, but to his dismay one of them passed through as if the Shield were made of vapor, and dealt him a severe blow on the shoulder. Suppressing a cry of pain, Jophan looked closely at his Shield. There was, he now noticed, a tarnished patch which had escaped the hasty polishing he had done that morning. Retreating quickly to safety, he polished his Shield to a uniform brilliance. Then he ventured again towards the danger area, looking curiously ahead to see how the other Neofen were faring. It was a dreadful sight that met his eyes. Lying on the paths were the crushed and bleeding bodies of many of the Neofen who had passed him that morning. Among them others staggered about, panic-stricken, trying to dodge the hail of stones. But their minds were so befuddled, and their swollen heads so vulnerable beneath their tiny and tarnished Shields, that the efforts of many were in vain. Even as he watched, one of the unfortunate wretches was struck from the path by a particularly heavy stone, and with a heart-rending scream vanished from sight down the rocky slope. On emerging from the lee of the big boulder which had been affording him some shelter, Jophan shielded his eyes from the sun and peered up the slope to try to discover why the falls of rock were so frequent. To his horror he saw, outlined against the sky, a row of dark, misshapen little men busily engaged in uprooting stones and hurling them at the defenseless Neofen below. He watched them for a while, but they showed no sign of abating their activities. Indeed, they did not even seem to stop for food for he noticed one dwarf hurling stones with one hand and with the other eating what appeared to be a bunch of small sour grapes. This last sight caused Jophan to decide that there was no point in delaying further. As he ventured forth a savage howl arose from the dwarfs, and the grape-eater seized a particularly sharp stone and threw it with tremendous speed directly at Jophan. Without flinching Jophan held his Shield firmly above his head. The stone bounced harmlessly off the Shield and back to the thrower with undiminished force. With grim satisfaction he observed it strike the dwarf with deadly effect, dislodging him from his perch so that he fell screaming down the slope and vanished into the abyss. Greatly pleased with the excellence of his Shield, Jophan proceeded along the path. The dwarfs seemed to have learned a lesson from a taste of their own medicine, and such stones as were thrown in his direction were cast in such a tentative and half-hearted manner that he could almost afford to ignore them. He began to think that the perils of the Canyon were at an end. This mood of over-confidence was soon rudely shattered. On rounding the next curve in his path he suddenly found himself in semi-darkness. Thinking that a cloud had passed over the sun, he looked up casually. His heart almost failed him to see that the shadow was cast by several huge, swarthy giants sitting drowsily among the swarming dwarfs on the crest of the cliff. [To be continued.] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 May 85 1038-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #169 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 18 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 169 Today's Topics: ****** SPECIAL ISSUE - THE ENCHANTED DUPLICATOR ****** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 14 May 85 00:14:30-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 17 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan is on his way to Trufandom.] Chapter Seventeen In which Jophan continues through the Canyon. Even as Jophan watched, one of the giants awoke, snorting angrily. With no apparent reason, or even perception of what he was doing, the giant uttered a great bellow of wrath, seized a boulder as large as a house and hurled it down the slope. The huge mass of rock hurtled down into a line of Neofen, smashing several to the ground despite their upraised Shields of Umor, and continued on its way down the mountainside, bounding from path to path, and sometimes carrying away whole fan groups at a time. When the last despairing cry had died away, Jophan looked back up the slope to see that the giant had settled back down to sleep, a contented, imbecilic smile on his countenance. Shuddering with disgust and fear, Jophan withdrew a few paces and sat down in the entrance to a cave to recover his nerve. The sound of his own breathing had barely subsided when he was again startled by a clicking noise behind him. He turned round sharply, and, as his eyes became more accustomed to the semi-darkness, he could see that the noise came from a Neofan who was striking a flat piece of stone with a tiny axe. He was so intent on his work that he did not notice Jophan's presence until the latter spoke to him. "What are these dreadful beings?" asked Jophan fearfully, speaking the first thought in his mind. "They belong to a race known as Magrevoos," said the Neofan knowledgeably. "The dwarfs are called Fanmagrevoos and the giants Promagrevoos. Many of them are not really evil, merely thoughtless and stupid. The giants, for example, have no idea of their own strength, and do not understand half of what is going on down here. In fact they would probably ignore us altogether were it not for the fact that they are continually being prodded into activity by a strange and powerful tribe known as the Headeaters, who live in the mountains." As he spoke, he lifted up a flat stone, which Jophan now saw was covered with neatly-cut lettering, and carried it to the mouth of the cave. He beckoned Jophan to follow him. "Moreover," he went on, "there are other Magrevoos who do their best to make up for the harm done by their fellows. They are known as the Fair Ones. Watch!" Jophan looked again at the scene of carnage on the mountainside. He saw that groups of fair-complexioned and kindly-faced dwarfs were passing among the victims reviving them with draughts of Egg o' Bu, raising them to their feet, and helping them some distance along the path. There was even a beautiful, blonde giantess assisting in the work of mercy. Jophan noticed, however, that while most of the dwarfs carefully selected those among the survivors who seemed most likely to benefit from their help, the giantess showed no such discrimination. Instead, she would sweep up a random pile of Neofen, including some who were obviously dead, drench them with Egg o' Bu from a large pitcher she carried slung over her shoulders, and with a few mighty strides deposit them far along the path. He saw that many of them merely sat in a daze where she placed them, quite incapable of taking advantage of their good fortune. "Who is she?" asked Jophan. "She comes from a now almost extinct tribe known as Fillips," said the Neofan absently. He had been swinging the stone in his right hand and now flung it with great force towards the crest of the mountains. He and Jophan watched it spin over the heads of the the dwarfs and disappear from view. "You missed," said Jophan. "It was not a missile," explained the Neofan patiently, "but a missive. A message to the Headeaters who control the giants. It is important to propitiate them, for they are by far the most important tribe in Fandom. indeed, there is a tradition that on their existence depends that of Trufandom itself. "If that is so," said Jophan, impressed, "your work is obviously of the greatest importance, and I should like to help if I may. My name is Jophan, and I am, of course, on my way to Trufandom to find the Magic Mimeograph and produce the Perfect Fanzine." "My name is Letterax," said the other cordially, "and I am delighted to make your acquaintance." With these words he gave Jophan a small axe, similar to his own, and they composed several messages to the Headeaters. When the last of these had disappeared into the mountains Jophan spoke reflectively to Letterax. "Since these mountains surround Trufandom on all sides," he pointed out, "it occurs to me that it would be quite as easy to send the messages from Trufandom as from here. Should we not continue our journey?" Letterax looked doubtful. "Do so if you wish," he said, "but I have several more messages I want to write. I shall follow you later." Privately, Jophan doubted if the Neofan would ever stir from his peaceful existence in the cave, but he expressed the hope of seeing him again in Trufandom and wished him a cordial farewell. Then, having generously replenished Letterax's skimpy supply of Egg o' Bu, he started on the last stage of his journey to Trufandom. [To be concluded.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue 14 May 85 00:15:09-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Enchanted Duplicator, Chapter 18 [The Enchanted Duplicator, by Walt Willis and Bob Shaw. Jophan has been trying to reach Trufandom.] Chapter Eighteen In which Jophan reaches the End of his Journey By the use of care and discretion, Jophan was able to evade the blind rages of the giants, and he found his Shield an infallible protection against the malice of the dwarfs. Thus he emerged from the danger area unscathed, and soon reached the head of the Canyon. He now found himself on a pleasant, flower-decked path leading gently upwards to a pass between the mountains. The sky in that direction was tinged with a warm golden glow, and at the sight he quickened his pace, for he knew that the glow could come only from Trufandom. However, the path was longer than it had seemed, and the sun had set before he had reached the summit. Regretfully he decided that he had better pass the night where he was. The grass beside the path was soft and the night was warm and pleasant, but Jophan found great difficulty in going to sleep. Borne on the mild breeze he heard the faint sound of happy voices coming from Trufandom, and they filled him with impatience to complete his journey. Next morning he was on his way at the first hint of light in the sky, and as dawn broke he had almost reached the summit of the pass. Gasping, he ran the last few hundred yards and flung himself down on the ground to drink in the beauty of the scene which lay before him. Bathed in the mysterious, golden light of early dawn lay the fair land of Trufandom. Only its hills and spires were picked out by the questing rays of the sun, for the country was a sunken plateau ringed on all sides by mountains, so that it formed a secluded world of its own. A more wonderful one Jophan could not have imagined. Beautiful as it was, however, his eyes were caught and held by the most wonderful thing of all. It was a tall, white tower which rose out of the rolling park land, and soared into the sky. On the summit something glittered like a tiny sun. This, he knew, must be the Tower of Trufandom -- and on its top The Enchanted Duplicator! All eagerness, he started down the grassy slope. He had taken but a few cautious steps when the thought came to him that here his Shield of Umor might have other uses than as a means of defense. Smiling happily to himself, he put the Shield on the ground and used it as a toboggan. Thus, Jophan sailed gaily down into Trufandom. At the foot of the the slope he again took up his Shield, now shining more brilliantly than ever before, and strode through the leafy lanes in the direction of the Tower. On either side of him were numerous parks and gardens, great and small, and of varying types of beauty, and in them walked shining, godlike figures whom he knew to be Trufans. Now and again one of them would notice Jophan, and come to greet him and wish him well, and with each encounter his eagerness grew to reach the Tower and become one of their number. So it was that late in the afternoon Jophan came at last to the Tower. There was a spiral staircase inside, and without hesitation he began to climb it. Up and up he went, round and round, higher and higher, long after he thought he should have reached the top. But the Tower was higher than he realized, and he was giddy and out of breath when at last he reached the head of the stairs. Above him now there was only a short ladder to a trapdoor. Jophan sat on the stairway for a while until his dizziness had passed, and he had regained his breath. Then he climbed up the ladder and pushed at the trapdoor. It swung open easily, on a concealed counterbalance. Above him was the blue sky. Though he had come so far, and braved so many dangers for this moment, his heart almost failed him now that his goal was at hand. But at last, pulling himself together, he stepped quickly up the ladder and onto the roof. He was on the very top of the Tower. Far beneath him was spread out all the Land of Trufandom as far as the now distant mountains. The top of the Tower was a sheet of burnished gold, and in the center was a cube of solid gold. On the cube there stood a mimeograph. At the sight of it Jophan felt a sickness in the stomach, and his legs almost failed to support him. Whitefaced, he stared at the mimeograph. He had expected a gleaming, jewel-like machine. Instead he saw a rusty, battered hulk. The framework was filthy with ink, the drum was caked, and there was something obviously wrong with the self-feed. It squatted on the gleaming, gold cube, an obscene eye sore. Jophan tried to pull himself together, telling himself that there must be some mistake. But there was nothing else on the roof, just the trapdoor through which he had come, the gold cube, and the old mimeograph. Dazed by the shock of his disappointment, he wandered aimlessly across the top of the Tower. As he did so his hand brushed against the handle of the mimeograph, and something like an electric shock coursed through his body. Amazed, he took a firm grip on the handle. A current of some potent force seemed to flow between him and the machine, feeding back and forth from one to the other until Jophan felt every particle of his being suffused with a strange new life. The mimeograph had also changed. There was no difference in its outward appearance, but he knew that the potent force had also taken possession of it. It was subtly changed, as if it had been dead and was now alive. The handle seemed to throb in his hand. Still uncomprehending, Jophan looked down at his own body. His skin was glowing with the same golden radiance he had noticed in the bodies of the Trufans. His limbs were being invested with the same godlike strength. As the revelation came to him, there was a sound of golden trumpets in the air, and he heard again the voice of the Spirit of Fandom. "Yes, Jophan," it said," you are now a True Fan; and it is yourself that has made you so, as it must be. And now you realize the second great truth -- that this is indeed the Magic Mimeograph, and it will produce the Perfect Fanzine. For--" and now the song of the trumpets filled the air, ringing across Trufandom to the far mountains-- "FOR THE MAGIC MIMEOGRAPH IS THE ONE WITH A TRUE FAN AT THE HANDLE." And Jophan found that it was so..... -THE END- ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 May 85 1125-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #170 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 170 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Artwork, Books - Asimov & Pohl, Films - Highrise & SF Shorts, Radio - Jack Flanders, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today & Relativity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (steven brust) Subject: re: cover artwork in general Date: 16 may 85 19:04:31 gmt > I found it interesting that you liked the cover to Hell, SKZB; > rumor had it that you detested it. > ---Jen H.--- I must have misstated myself. The rumor is correct; I detest it. The thing is, the *painting* is fine; it's just horribly wrong for the book. I will forgive them if it sells, but, given clash between the painting and the lettering, I doubt it will do that. I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but the cover art to BROKEDOWN PALACE is being done by Alan Lee. THIS I am looking forward to seeing. He did the covers for an edition of the GHORMANGHAST Trilogy, and those covers are magnificant. He has also done a collection of artwork called CASTLES that has been getting rave reviews. Faunch Faunch. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Mon 20 May 85 01:09:14-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: MultivAC question.... A while back, when all the discussion of Asimov's Multivac stories was taking place, I asked the burning question: 'What does the AC at the end of Multivac et. al. stand for?'. I received 9 responses, of which 5 were correct. I guess that this shows that net-landers read the classics (or maybe we're just old). The first correct answer came from Bob Carter , whose two-word reponse was 'Analogue Computer'. While I strongly suspect Asimov used the US spelling of 'analog', this is close enough and Bob may have his ten bonus points. Check 'The Last Question' in Nine Tommorows for this answer. The other correct responses came from (in order of reception): Peter Alfke , Stephen Balzac , 'deej' , and 'jbl' . Incorrect responses centered around analogies to Univac: (UNIVersal Automatic Computer). This is a very easy error, and I suspect that The Good Doctor had Univac in mind when he wrote the story. Other suggestions were Algorithmic Computer, Analytic(al) Calculator, and Asimov's Computer (or Asimov and Clarke (!)). Other observations: "Multivac is to Univac as Unix is to Multics." Bruce Leban. "Multivax would be a good node-name for an VAX 11/782." Robert Krawitz. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 85 11:20:06 EDT From: Ron Singleton Subject: Fredrik Pohl's MAN PLUS Just finished MAN PLUS, now in it's 8th printing (first printing was in '76, so many of you will have already seen it). Basically, it is about an attempt to colonize our solar system using a cyborg, sort of a "super six-million dollar man," with machine- and computer-assisted enhancements. I can't say more without risking a spoiler, so will close with a recommendation, especially to the "computer-in-sf" contingent. Ron S. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 85 09:47:46 edt From: gfh@cca-unix (Gail Hormats) Subject: Re: HighRise the short animation called Highrise was done as a calling card by a friend of a friend of a friend of mine. It was intended to show the abilities of the director/animator when he went to Hollywood (or some such place) to obtain a job. I saw it last summer in my friend's basement and enjoyed it for what it was. I didn't know it had "gone public" and was being shown in theatres. Gail Hormats arpa: gfh@cca usenet: try looking in the header, I've never figured it out, sorry. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: A Program of Science Fiction Shorts Date: 18 May 85 01:00:15 PDT (Sat) From: Alastair Milne > (No flames about the good works of the Canadian Film Board, > please. They've done some good stuff, but too much of their > output is self indulgence in technique.) Sorry, I can't oblige. The work of the National Film Board of Canada is frequently magnificent (nor does animation predominate in it, by any means). And despite their name, it is not limited to films. The books "Canada: A Year of the Land" and a similar one -- whose name I've forgotten -- showing both sides of the border, intended for the American Bicentennary, come prominently to mind. My experience with the National Film Board of Canada so far causes me to expect great things whenever I hear of a file they've made; my disappointments (inevitable with an expectation like that) have been few. Thank heaven North America has an alternative to Hollywood. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 1985 19:09-EDT From: John.Wenn@CMU-CS-G.ARPA Subject: Re: Jack Flanders ???? "The Fourth Tower of Inverness" is a set of cassette tapes (5 tapes, 7 hours) done by ZBS. ZBS has produced an interesting selection of (mostly original) Science Fantasy radio drama (or "mind movies" as they like to call them). All have good to excellent sound effects and voices, and I like most of the stories. In addition to TFToI, they have made two additional Jack Flanders series ("Moon over Morocco" [7 tapes, 10 hours], and "The Incredible Adventures of Jack Flanders [5 tapes, 5 hours]), "Ruby" (A female galactic gumshoe [4 tapes, 3 1/2 hours]), "Stars & Stuff" (Misc funny stories [6 tapes, 8 hours]), a new series featuring known SF stories ("The Mist" by King, "The Bleeding Man" by Wollheim, etc.), and various other stuff. My favorite is "Ruby". This series has great effects, fantastic voices, witty dialogue, wonderful story line, awful mole puns, and STYLE. You can just order the first tape of a series, and then order the rest if you like it. For a catalgue, their address is ZBS Foundation RR #1, Box 1201 Fort Edward, NY 12828 Tel. (518) 695-6409 or 695-3960. Well worth looking into. /john ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I Date: 14 May 85 02:39:00 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY PART I: The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions by Davis Tucker "I hadn't liked his work until I met him, but I couldn't stand liking him so much and not liking his books, so I made myself read them until I liked them." (1) This quote exemplifies what is so difficult about science fiction and its relation to its public. Since it is such an insular (some would say inbred) community, there is a wonderful "personal" nature of the relationship between author and reader that does not really exist in any other genre (which I notice, most other forms of popular writing do not refer to themselves as a "genre", but that's something else altogether...). Fine. There is nothing wrong with a public being in closer contact with an author, as long as that contact does not downgrade any given person's ability to judge and appreciate. Unfortunately, this degradation of critical faculties is unavoidable, just by human nature, and it takes a very strong sense of self to keep it in check. The above statement puts it very succinctly - and is a very good example of what is so often wrong with science fiction fandom and its rationale for giving accolades or insults. Dostoevsky was, by all accounts, an extremely contentious and obnoxious individual, who was prone to fits of rage and drunkenness; a man who died without many friends, mainly because he drove them off. Yet he is one of the finest writers of all time. His work is a product of himself; I'm not saying we have to divorce the man from the words. But given the usual nature of science fiction, if he happened to be a writer in that field today, he probably wouldn't get published, he certainly wouldn't win any awards, and he would definitely not gain any great appreciation from the science fiction readers and establishment. This is not conjecture; this is fact. And the hardest fact of all for many fans to swallow, which few of them have, is that it is often the most disagreeable people who write the greatest literature. Our most tortured souls, our outcasts, our misanthropes. Mark Twain. Edgar Allen Poe. Sinclair Lewis. John Steinbeck. Ambrose Bierce (to whom science fiction owes a great deal for writing a number of definitive "tomato surprise" stories). And even more recently, Norman Mailer, Gore Vidal, Truman Capote, Tennessee Williams! Let's be honest - almost all great writers, even if they were likable, had some very horrible personality traits, often in the extreme. Alcoholism and drug abuse seem to be the congenital defects of writers, coupled with a large streak of self-destructiveness. Now, it's true that there are many likable people who could fit into this company. But the point is that someone's congeniality is not his or her writing. It just flat out has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of his or her prose. A good friend of mine works for a newspaper. She's written all her life. She's a wonderful human being from whom I've learned an incredible amount. She's a very likable person, the kind who draws people into conversations, who listens, who relates. But she can't write fiction for jack. No ifs, ands, or buts - she's just not good at it. Now am I supposed to start liking her writing because I like her? Sure, she's a close friend, and I'll do more than just give her the benefit of the doubt. But to "make myself read them until I like them", to bludgeon myself into liking her fiction, is to go against everything for which great, even good writing stands. It downgrades literature of any sort, takes it from being an art or a craft, to being a popularity contest. And that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Vincent Van Gogh was a tortured, insane, and lonely man. Norman Rockwell was basically a nice guy. I probably would not have enjoyed being around Van Gogh, while Norman and I would quite possibly have gotten along famously. So I should, by the above quoted argument, attempt to reach a deeper appreciation of Rockwell's work due to my personal fondness for him. In other words, if I like him so much as a person, I certainly would like his work. But no matter how much I tried, Norman Rockwell would never be one millionth of Vincent Van Gogh, would never possess one iota of Van Gogh's genius. Isaac Asimov, from everything I've heard, is a gentleman - well-mannered, considerate, helpful to young authors, interested in new talent. Some of his work possesses merit - his non-fiction. We'll forget about his poetry ("Dr. A." indeed!). His fiction is not that good - yes, it shows some marginal craftsmanship, some workable ideas, but it's not really that good, as fiction. His characters are at best two-dimensional, his societies are not really that interesting unless you like space opera, and his writing style is pretty nondescript and undeveloped. His plots are rather predictable, and his themes are shopworn after 40 years. Whatever he had to say about robots he said a long, long time ago (Karel Kapek said it with much more depth and understanding in "R.U.R.", which predates any of the Asimov robot stories). He has made a career out of mediocrity, out of the standard "Scientist-With-Great-Idea- Explains-It-All-To-Young-Whippersnapper" story so unfortunately common in science fiction (especially the misnamed "Golden Age Of Science Fiction"). There's nothing wrong with that; believe me, the last thing I would do is take cheap potshots at someone who actually makes a living by being a writer, even if I think he's not a very good one. But nothing he has written even comes close to Gene Wolfe. This isn't mere opinion - I don't truck with the idea of absolute relativism in art. It is probably an overstatement, but Asimov is to Wolfe as Rockwell is to Van Gogh. Appreciation of good writing takes many forms, and it is arguably less critically bankrupt to like an author for his work than to like his work for his personality. A writer and his work are certainly not separate; but it is the printed word which must be judged, because that is the primary function of a writer - not to be a nice human being, or a good father, or a temperate drinker, but to be a good writer. Anything else is superfluous, unimportant, icing on the cake. A great author can be forgiven anything in his life, no matter how heinous; a bad writer can be the finest man in the world, but he cannot be forgiven being a bad writer. If science fiction were not a field of literary endeavor (and who knows? Sometimes it really does seem to be something totally different), none of this would matter. But it is, and it is incumbent upon readers of science fiction to remember this, and judge accordingly, and not allow personalities to affect that judgment. That's all for today, kids. Tune in next week for "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II: Meet The New Hack, Same As The Old Hack". (1) Steven Brust, USENET article dated May 6, 1985 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 May 85 20:36 CDT From: Patrick_Duff Subject: questions about the theory of relativity While space-digest is answering questions from people who have always been bothered by some aspect of the theory of relativity, I have a few which have been puzzling me for some time. Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after being "locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell you your velocity relative to that object (even after a period of near-light speed travel, various maneuvers, etc.)? I'm not talking about a computer which would perform calculations based upon a history file of past accelerations, but rather a "device" which reacts to the accelerations it experiences. What about a "clock" which would always tell you the time & date on the other object? It seems to me that if you can make either one you can make the other one as well; they are *almost* the same device, aren't they? If these devices are possible, would they require lots of mass (as massive as a planet, perhaps?) to achieve reasonable accuracy over inter-stellar distances, or could they be something more like a wrist-watch? An early science fiction book (\Skylark/ by E. E. Doc Smith) had another interesting device which was something like a compass; wherever you were in the universe, it would point at whatever you had "locked" it onto (the farther away you were from the object, the longer it took the needle to stop moving, or the more power you had to feed it, or something like that; at one point the characters in the story measured this to find out not only the direction, but also the approximate distance to the object). In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel through time without traveling through space has always bothered me. If you could exchange one of the three space axes for a time axis (such as inside the event horizon of a black hole?), travel along it, and then rotate back, then to move 1 second you would have to travel approximately 186,000 miles. Am I missing something here? Also, what difference would it make whether you traveled that distance at a slow speed (.001 c) or a fast speed (.999 c)? Does such travel avoid any cause/effect paradoxes? After all, you would be staying within the cause/effect light-cone, wouldn't you? Finally (for now anyway), I have heard it said that Einstein's theory of relativity could be replaced by a quantum theory of gravity. I'm unconvinced; it seems to me that they concern fundamentally different aspects of the universe. Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1659 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 May 85 1136-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #171 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 171 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art, Books - Brust & Heinlein (2 msgs) & Wilhelm, Films - Canticle for Leibowitz & Rocky Horror & Dungeonmaster, Miscellaneous - Relativity (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: re: cover art (To Reign in Hell, Alan Lee, and The Iron Tower Subject: Trilogy) Date: 18 May 85 17:42:46 GMT I agree with Steven (Brust), the lettering on _To Reign in Hell_ clashes with the cover art. And, Steve, I think that on your next book artwork by Alan Lee ought to be just super... You see, he did the work on my _Iron Tower Trilogy_ and I was *stunned* by the results. The rest of the world will get to see it in August, September, and October of this year when the Signet paperbacks hit the market. Dennis L. McKiernan ...ihnp4!cbuxc!dim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 85 09:15 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: review of "To Reign in Hell" I picked up Brust's "To Reign in Hell" as soon as it showed up. I'd read - and thoroughly enjoyed - his previous two books, so was looking forward to this one with great anticipation. Although TRiH is done quite differently than Brust's first two books, I was not disappointed! It takes a while to get used to the style the book is written in - the scenes change with, at first, disturbing quickness. However, once I got used to the book there was no problem. My main impression of the book is it reminded me of a Shakespearean tragedy (high praise, in my mind). Several likable characters being manipulated by one unlikable character into a disasterous confrontation. (In reference to the discussions on cover art I've seen recently, the cover scene does appear in the book - more or less. It's not a scene I would have chosen for the cover but I guess dragons sell books these days - I know I'll give a book with a dragon on the cover a good looking-over.) Anyway, I highly recommend the book. By the way, does anyone out there know of a comic book mailing list on arpa? How many of you know a comic book received three preliminary nominations for the Nebula Award? Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sat 18 May 85 15:51:57-PDT From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: V10 #163--Heinlein First, let us not judge Heinlein's CHARACTERS' actions by our own standards: In _Stranger in a Strange Land_, the "girls" PUT UP with Jubal, because of his advanced age. Further, Gillian's reaction to Digby's "little lady" was due to her dislike of what she perceived as his attempt to take VMS away from his family--NOT because she had read Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, and Germaine Greer. Second, Allucquere was STILL as tough and free-spirited as before her marriage; she just played the same game that most (all?) of Heinlein's female characters do: The male ape is appeased by my appearing to be infantile and therefore helpless, so since I enjoy his company, I'll play along until I get tired of it. Before the flames go on, please note that I am making no statements here about my own beliefs one way of another.... Rich Alderson@Score ------------------------------ Date: Sat 18 May 85 15:53:59-PDT From: Alderson@Score Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #163 Oops--a thought was incomplete in that last--I intended to point out that _Stranger in a Strange Land_, for example, is 25 years old; the prevailing attitudes were different. Rich Alderson@Score ------------------------------ Date: Sun 19 May 85 23:19:45-PDT From: Douglas M. Olson Subject: Kate Wilhelm's Welcome Chaos Just finished the new Wilhelm, _Welcome,_Chaos_, and was impressed overall. Well paced, nice conflicts, and styled well (at least, I liked it...). A few mild flaws *** spoiler warning *** in that this seemed like a contemporary spy thriller; like _The_Boys_From_Brazil_ or some such. It is contemporary, had some mis-direction about who were the good guys, the Soviets were involved and events threatened to launch WW III. All ok as far as it goes, but not the kind of book I expected. One other item crept in which bothered me; the main group here had a secret to protect and they tended to kill anybody whose research led in the same direction. This had been successful enough (and somehow unobtrusive enough) to prevent most folks from following up that line. But one of their victims 'was already spending his Nobel money' which seemed strange; how could this research possibly be secret if a Nobel had been awarded on the same lines? This minor point really didn't detract more than momentarily, the book was great. ddo (dolson @ eclb.arpa) ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@topaz.arpa (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: Re: movie of Leibowitz Date: 18 May 85 08:00:14 GMT I think a movie of _A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz_ would be great, but in a manner of speaking, it's already been done. I'm speaking of the National Public Radio Production. It aired a little over a year ago over Minnesota Public Radio. It was well done and fairly verbaitim. I think these extended radio shows are the ideal way to do dramatic adaptations of literary works. Where else can you do twelve-hour productions? The radio adaptations of the first two STAR WARS movies were really good too... much more detail than thie books or movies, and with Mark Hamill, Anthony Daniels, and the original Ben Burtt sound effects, all well mixed right in St. Paul by Tom Vogli, I think. The replacement actors for the rest of the cast were on the whole believable. I often read books and think about what good movies they would make, but... ah well. Someone ought REALLY to make movies out of Alan Dean Foster's original SF. _Cachalot_, for instance reads just like a movie, with a teaser at the beginning, followed by the arrival of the main characters, during which one can practically see the credits rolling. My choice for a Foster movie would be _Icerigger_. Laurence Roberts ...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 85 10:52 EDT (Sun) From: Mijjil Subject: Rocky Horror Picture Show (no spoilers) This is news to me, that Rocky Horror is finally available on video tape. Can you give me some info as to which film company released it, etc? Where did you buy it? To answer your questions on the soundtrack, as far as I know, the movie soundtrack is mono. It seems that no one thought of releasing the soundtrack, so the original cast had to be brought back together to work in a recording studio - recreating the songs from the film. You can tell the difference in the way some of the songs are sung - that is, the difference between the movie and sound track versions, if you listen carefully. Don't dream it, be it... {Mijjil} ------------------------------ From: anwar!chuck@topaz.arpa (chuck jann) Subject: Re: "The Dungeon Master" <> Date: 18 May 85 03:39:52 GMT The Dungeon Master" the movie in search of writers. DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME OR MONEY ON THIS FILM ! cj UUCP address: {ihnp4,decvax,allegra}!philabs!hhb!chuck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 85 7:06:31 EDT From: Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) To: Patrick_Duff Subject: Re: questions about the theory of relativity > Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after > being "locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell > you your velocity relative to that object (even after a period of > near-light speed travel, various maneuvers, etc.)? Not really, because it would have to know all about the structure of the region of space(-time) it was operated in. If you happen to know what the structure is (e.g., essentially flat in intergalactic space), then a close approximation could be done by keeping track of perceived accelerations. If the "other object" were another spaceship, it would be even harder, since the device would also have to know how the other object was moving. > I'm not talking about a computer which would perform calculations > based upon a history file of past accelerations, but rather a > "device" which reacts to the accelerations it experiences. What's the difference? > What about a "clock" which would always tell you the time & date > on the other object? Similar situation. Both cases assume that there is a meaning to where the distant object "really is" and what its time "really is"; in general there is no single answer to these questions. > In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel > through time without traveling through space has always bothered > me. Gee, I find it easy to move through time without moving through space. Rip van Winkle found it even easier.. > Finally (for now anyway), I have heard it said that Einstein's > theory of relativity could be replaced by a quantum theory of > gravity. Funny how the people who say this haven't been able to do so. > I'm unconvinced; it seems to me that they concern fundamentally > different aspects of the universe. Yes, indeed. More relevantly, their conceptual foundations are quite dissimilar. General relativity (more precisely, generalized field theory) is best expressed as a theory about an objective reality. Quantum theory (QED, QCD) fundamentally denies this. Both theories are claimed to work; no single theory has yet been able to unify these two. Most recent such attempts start from the quantum approach; Einstein started from the field theory approach. There are some striking similarities in some of the resulting technical details (e.g., non-Abelian gauge groups for "internal" symmetries) but there are still considerable differences in the concepts. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 May 85 19:58 CDT From: Patrick_Duff Subject: RE: questions about the theory of relativity By now, most readers should have had an opportunity to reach their own opinions concerning the questions I posed. Now that 24 hours has passed since I mailed my last message, let me throw in a few of my opinions. > Is it theoretically possible to create a device which, after >being "locked" onto an object (e.g., the Earth), could always tell >you your velocity relative to that object (even after a period of >near-light speed travel, various maneuvers, etc.)? I'm not talking >about a computer which would perform calculations based upon a >history file of past accelerations, but rather a "device" which >reacts to the accelerations it experiences. What about a "clock" >which would always tell you the time & date on the other object? What's missing here is the unspoken assumption that the object does not accelerate after it is "locked" onto (I suppose one could compensate for predictable accelerations, such as those due to the object's orbit (e.g., the Earth's orbit around Sol)). An alternative (though much less useful) is to have a device which would be "reset" (perhaps while on the ground before takeoff) and would then give the velocity or time & date at that point in space (which will soon be empty as the planet moves on) relative to you regardless of subsequent maneuvers. My opinion is yes, they are theoretically possible. Practical complications abound however. For instance, you would have to consider the accelerations experienced while moving in a gravitational field (such as when passing near a black hole). In the case of the clock, since the rate at which it would register passing time would change over a wide range, a purely mechanical solution is difficult. In some situations it would need to move so slowly that vibration, friction and random molecular motions (heat) would become overriding influences. In other situations the various parts of the mechanism would need to move extremely rapidly. These problems could be solved if the device were able to automatically change scales (e.g., one revolution of an indicator used to mean one week passing on the object, but now it means one hour passing) whenever things started going too slowly (or too quickly). I don't know whether you could do these operations without keeping a history of past accelerations. What I'd prefer is a device which simply changes its current operation in direct response to an acceleration it is currently experiencing. >An early science fiction book (\Skylark/ by E. E. Doc Smith) had >another interesting device which was something like a compass; >wherever you were in the universe, it would point at whatever you >had "locked" it onto (the farther away you were from the object, >the longer it took the needle to stop moving, or the more power you >had to feed it, or something like that; at one point the characters >in the story measured this to find out not only the direction, but >also the approximate distance to the object). In \Skylark/ the power to the compass was turned on only when a reading was needed (at least, that's the way I remember it happening). It seems to me that you would need to power such a device continuously unless it used a history file. What I'm discussing in the above paragraphs are some of the instruments which would be needed on a ship capable of traveling at relativistic velocities. When such a ship needs to know where to aim its communication laser, what frequency or bit-rate to use, when to start sending it, the distance to another object, how to rendezvous with another ship, etc., the instruments which are used today on sea-going ships and orbital vehicles are completely inadequate. We know enough right now to write programs for all of the necessary calculations; can someone who has experience as a navigator, communicator, etc. suggest a list of what calculations would be needed to answer all of the questions which would arise in the operation of such a ship? > In science fiction stories, the ease with which ships travel >through time without traveling through space has always bothered >me. If you could exchange one of the three space axes for a time >axis (such as inside the event horizon of a black hole?), travel >along it, and then rotate back, then to move 1 second you would >have to travel approximately 186,000 miles. Am I missing something >here? Also, what difference would it make whether you traveled >that distance at a slow speed (.001 c) or a fast speed (.999 c)? >Does such travel avoid any cause/effect paradoxes? After all, you >would be staying within the cause/effect light-cone, wouldn't you? Since travel along the time-axis while it is exchanged with one of the space axes is space-like and hence limited by the speed of light, this implies that the rate at which one can travel through time (at least, by this method) is also limited. The question about the velocity of travel along the time axis really opens up a can of worms. Relativistic effects are tied to gravitational phenomena; what would a gravitational field look like while travelling along a rotated time axis? It seems to me that any velocity-related effects would operate in a time-like manner on the space-like time-axis; in other words, some kind of "meta-time" (I don't know what it is, but it was fun to include it!). As for cause/effect paradoxes, upon reflection I now realize that when you exchange a time-axis with a space-axis, you will actually be operating outside the cause/effect light-cone, not inside it as I had originally imagined. Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1659 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 May 85 1327-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #172 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 20 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 172 Today's Topics: Books - Lee & Russell, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Lee's Master series Date: 17 May 85 21:14:54 GMT I have a question. I have copies of Tanith Lee's "Night's Master", "Death's Master", and "Delusion's Master". Someone once mentioned that this series contained 4 books. Is this true? If so, what is the fourth? Thanks... Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ From: duke!ndd@topaz.arpa (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: Eric Frank Russel & 1 question Date: 14 May 85 15:53:58 GMT bottom@katadn.DEC writes: > Seeing as how Eric Frank Russell has been mentioned I thought I'd >throw in my pitch for one of his better books, Men, Martians and >Machines. It's been years since I read it but if you can find it >read it. Men, Martians and Machines was recently reprinted as part of a series of classic science fiction stories. I have forgotten the publisher and editors, but I was very pleased to get a hard-back copy; my paper-back version was purchased in 1965 and is very fragile. However, I was disappointed to see that the two texts did not match; the more recent printing had been Americanized. I clearly remember a spanner becoming a wrench; there may be other examples. It kind of irritates me, since I learned a lot of interesting words from books, words that I might not have learned if everything was written in some 'standard' American english. Ned Danieley duke!ndd ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I Date: 15 May 85 20:14:53 GMT > "I hadn't liked his work until I met him, but > I couldn't stand liking him so much and not liking > his books, so I made myself read them until I > liked them." (1) > > This quote exemplifies what is so difficult about science fiction > and its relation to its public. Since it is such an insular (some > would say inbred) community, there is a wonderful "personal" > nature of the relationship between author and reader that does not > really exist in any other genre (which I notice, most other forms > of popular writing do not refer to themselves as a "genre", but > that's something else altogether...). Fine. There is nothing wrong > with a public being in closer contact with an author, as long as > that contact does not downgrade any given person's ability to > judge and appreciate. Unfortunately, this degradation of > critical faculties is unavoidable, just by human nature, and it > takes a very strong sense of self to keep it in check. The above > statement puts it very succinctly - and is a very good example of > what is so often wrong with science fiction fandom and its > rationale for giving accolades or insults. Hi there. The quote was, of course, mine. That is only one of the things that moves me to answer. I will not apologize for the length; anyone can skip it and yours was a carefully thought out essay that deserves to be answered. What you say is not only wrong, but dangerously wrong. Should anyone with hopes of writing read it, and believe it, his career will likely be shot before it gets started. I am not unfamiliar with the kind of thinking going on here. It is the romanticizing of the arts. Taking this seriously is fine for critics and historians, but for a writer to do so is pure poison. The notion that SF writers and fans are in closer touch than in most genres is true. The effect of this is to present to the writer more information on how is work is being taken than is common. To say that this is inherently a bad thing is to fall into the trap of feeling that an artist should be insensitive to the public's response to his art. Once again, we have the romance of the artist. But the JOB of the artist is to evoke emotion, and to deepen the viewer's knowledge of the world around him by bringing out and exposing the contradictions that operate on his, the viewer's or reader's, life. In other words, NO artist can create art that will move someone with whom he has nothing in common. The greatest artists are those who are most able to transcend that cultural differences that separate men to arrive at the underlying similarities. A common milieu between writer and reader deepens the unity between them, and therefore makes even more sharp that the conflicts in the life of the artist, expressed through his art, are also there in the life of the reader. Should the artist feel he is creating art "above" the common man, he is no longer engaging in art, he is engaging in masterbation. To be clear, you are not saying all that I am attributing to you, but I sense it in your attitude and so feel driven to respond. > Dostoevsky was, by all accounts, an extremely contentious and > obnoxious individual, who was prone to fits of rage and > drunkenness; a man who died without many friends, mainly because > he drove them off. Yet he is one of the finest writers of all > time. His work is a product of himself; I'm not saying we have to > divorce the man from the words. But given the usual nature of > science fiction, if he happened to be a writer in that field > today, he probably wouldn't get published, he certainly wouldn't > win any awards, and he would definitely not gain any great > appreciation from the science fiction readers and establishment. > This is not conjecture; this is fact. No, this is nonsense. First of all, no one in the publishing industry would know anything about him when his manuscript first appeared. If it were good, it would be published. This is exactly the strength of Science Fiction. If you write good SF, you can publish. This is true to a lesser extent in mysteries, and almost nowhere else. But it is a low-paying field, and therefore the opportunity exists to take chances on unknowns. If what you say is true, Harlan Ellison would never have published, nor would Jerry Pournelle (in the latter case, this might have been nice, but never mind) to pick just two examples. Neither of these people are well-liked (or were; I'm told Ellison is changing) but both are successful, and both have won awards. Now, there is nevertheless some truth to what you say about awards--as long as we are discussing the Hugo and not the Nebula--but even here the truth is very limited. All right, yes; the Hugo can be and sometimes has been a popularity contest. The Nebula has never been. Furthermore, if a writer can only sell to Fans (meaning those who have some contact with anything that can be called the Science Fiction Community) he will never be a successful author. If he were to be ostracized by these fans to the extent that NO fan would buy his books, the drop in sales would be noticeable but not crippling. Just as a side note, by the way, have you been following the comments on TO REIGN IN HELL? If those who have been attacking it have been holding back out of affection for me, I don't want to hear their real opinions. > And the hardest fact of all for many fans to swallow, which few of > them have, is that it is often the most disagreeable people who > write the greatest literature. Our most tortured souls, our > outcasts, our misanthropes. Mark Twain. Edgar Allen Poe. > Sinclair Lewis. John Steinbeck. Ambrose Bierce (to whom science > fiction owes a great deal for writing a number of definitive > "tomato surprise" stories). And even more recently, Norman Mailer, > Gore Vidal, Truman Capote, Tennessee Williams! Let's be honest - > almost all great writers, even if they were likable, had some > very horrible personality traits, often in the extreme. Alcoholism > and drug abuse seem to be the congenital defects of writers, > coupled with a large streak of self-destructiveness. Now, it's > true that there are many likable people who could fit into this > company. But the point is that someone's congeniality is not his > or her writing. It just flat out has no bearing whatsoever on the > quality of his or her prose. It is interesting to see the list of those you consider great writers. Twain; yes. But if you are implying that he was an unpleasant man, you are drastically overstating the case. Sinclair Lewis; okay. But Poe? "Greatest literature"??? Steinbeck? Certainly--sometimes. On a good day. As for your current choices, I can't believe you are serious. Truman Capote writing great literature? For whom? I once thought the term self-indulgent was invented to describe him. And Mailer doesn't even have Capote's occasional gift for turn of phrase. I read SF because most (not all) of the best writers are working there. If you are going to mention current "literature" that is worth reading, you should at least mention Salinger, who isn't consistent but is better than most of the ones you mention (I'll concede the point on Williams--he really is good, most of the time). As you say, someone's congeniality has no bearing on the quality of his prose. Think about that-- it runs both ways. > A good friend of mine works for a newspaper. She's written all her > life. She's a wonderful human being from whom I've learned an > incredible amount. She's a very likable person, the kind who > draws people into conversations, who listens, who relates. But she > can't write fiction for jack. No ifs, ands, or buts - she's just > not good at it. Now am I supposed to start liking her writing > because I like her? Sure, she's a close friend, and I'll do more > than just give her the benefit of the doubt. But to "make myself > read them until I like them", to bludgeon myself into liking her > fiction, is to go against everything for which great, even good > writing stands. It downgrades literature of any sort, takes it > from being an art or a craft, to being a popularity contest. And > that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Why? I have, several times, had the pleasure of eating at The Bakery, a fine, continental restaurant in Chicago. I have even made the 8-hour trip to Chicago to eat there. I also enjoy eating at little diner called "Key's" in St. Paul that the tiniest step above being a greasy spoon. The Bakery has good food; eating at "Key's" is pleasant. I don't feel that by enjoying eating at "Key's" I am insulting Chef Szathmary. They are not equal, I know the difference, and I can enjoy both. I feel I am richer thereby. I also read the Destroyer novels. In no way can they be called good. Nevertheless, I enjoy them. I do not feel my appreciation of Twain suffers because I can be entertained by pulp adventure. > Vincent Van Gogh was a tortured, insane, and lonely man. Norman > Rockwell was basically a nice guy. I probably would not have > enjoyed being around Van Gogh, while Norman and I would quite > possibly have gotten along famously. So I should, by the above > quoted argument, attempt to reach a deeper appreciation of > Rockwell's work due to my personal fondness for him. In other > words, if I like him so much as a person, I certainly would like > his work. But no matter how much I tried, Norman Rockwell would > never be one millionth of Vincent Van Gogh, would never possess > one iota of Van Gogh's genius. No. But if you can enjoy his work, there will be that much more that you can enjoy. Whence comes the notion that to enjoy the "sub-great" is to diminish enjoyment of the truly great? Take it on its own level and Rockwell is fine. The problem with Van Gogh is that there was only one of him. > Isaac Asimov, from everything I've heard, is a gentleman - > well-mannered, considerate, helpful to young authors, interested > in new talent. Some of his work possesses merit - his non-fiction. > We'll forget about his poetry ("Dr. A." indeed!). His fiction is > not that good - yes, it shows some marginal craftsmanship, some > workable ideas, but it's not really that good, as fiction. His > characters are at best two-dimensional, his societies are not > really that interesting unless you like space opera, and his > writing style is pretty nondescript and undeveloped. His plots are > rather predictable, and his themes are shopworn after 40 years. > Whatever he had to say about robots he said a long, long time ago > (Karel Kapek said it with much more depth and understanding in > "R.U.R.", which predates any of the Asimov robot stories). He has > made a career out of mediocrity, out of the standard > "Scientist-With-Great-Idea-Explains-It-All-To-Young-Whippersnapper" > story so unfortunately common in science fiction (especially the > misnamed "Golden Age Of Science Fiction"). There's nothing wrong > with that; believe me, the last thing I would do is take cheap > potshots at someone who actually makes a living by being a writer, > even if I think he's not a very good one. But nothing he has > written even comes close to Gene Wolfe. This isn't mere opinion - > I don't truck with the idea of absolute relativism in art. It is > probably an overstatement, but Asimov is to Wolfe as Rockwell is > to Van Gogh. I see. Well, I quite agree--QUITE agree--with your assessments of the relative literary merits of Dr. Asimov and Gene Wolfe. In fact, I don't think the comparison IS an overstatement. Yes, Asimov is to Wolfe as Rockwell is to Van Gogh. I've never met Dr. Asimov, but from everything I've heard, he gets away with acting as he does only because of his fame and success. He is--never mind. This is a semi-public forum. But I can safely say that, from all reports, Dr. Asimov is not a pleasant companion if you happen to be female. Okay. I HAVE met Gene Wolfe. On a panel, as the center of a group, on the fringe of a group, in letters, or in a tete-a-tete, you will never find a finer, wittier, more charming gentleman. Now, where does that leave you? > Appreciation of good writing takes many forms, and it is arguably > less critically bankrupt to like an author for his work than to > like his work for his personality. A writer and his work are > certainly not separate; but it is the printed word which must be > judged, because that is the primary function of a writer - not to > be a nice human being, or a good father, or a temperate drinker, > but to be a good writer. Anything else is superfluous, > unimportant, icing on the cake. A great author can be forgiven > anything in his life, no matter how heinous; a bad writer can be > the finest man in the world, but he cannot be forgiven being a bad > writer. If science fiction were not a field of literary endeavor > (and who knows? Sometimes it really does seem to be something > totally different), none of this would matter. But it is, and it > is incumbent upon readers of science fiction to remember this, and > judge accordingly, and not allow personalities to affect that > judgment. I will agree with this. Your notion that there is a widespread judging of literary quality based on personality is, however, incorrect. The real problem, which would be well worth addressing, is: the general of lack of criticism of any kind. You are a fan; this is obvious. You, like most fans, have a drastically over blown notion of the importance of fandom. Yes, we aren't getting much serious literary criticism, but this has little or nothing to do with fandom. Read LeGuin's essays on why American SF has generally been ignored by the critics. No, it isn't fandom--fandom just isn't that important to SF. There are interesting things going on in Science Fiction right now. On the one hand, with the success of Star Wars and Star Trek, we have an increase in popularity, with the similar increase in cheap adventure, with little or no substance. At the same time, there is the emergence of exciting, new approaches, new themes, and higher literary standards. If fandom has had any effect at all on either of these I think that, as I said near the beginning of this response, it has been mostly a good one. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 May 85 0947-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #173 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 173 Today's Topics: Art - Gormenghast, Books - Brust & Ford & Heinlein & Herbert & Stapledon (2 msgs) & Zelazny, Films - Star Trek III & Dragonslayer & 2001/2010 (2 msgs), Television - V, Miscellaneous - SF Bookstores (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 May 85 21:46:12 pdt From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Gormenghast Yes, the cover artwork is excellent. So are the books. I heard somewhere that Sting has the movie rights for these books. Does anyone know more about this? -s ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: To Reign in Hell (I liked it) Date: 18 May 85 18:18:10 GMT Steve: I just this morning finished _To Reign In Hell_ and I had one of those *good* feelings when I put the book down. I mean, I really liked what I had just finished. I re-read Zelazny's foreword, and I totally agree with everything he said, and more. It truly is an engaging tale... (And it has delicious word/thought/ sayings play sprinkled throughout.) But, Lord! I sure did want Satan and Yaweh to have a let's-sit-d own-and-talk-before-things-get-out-of-hand conversation. But then, if they had gotten together early on, the tale would have spun out differently... And I liked it just as it came off the loom. Dennis L. McKiernan ...ihnp4!cbuxc!dim PS: Back in the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to remember that Milton drew upon but a single line in the Bible to weave his original tale. You see, in the elder days, Lucifer (light-bringer) was the name given to the morning star. And some biblical person (a king?) glanced up at the morning stars and espying Lucifer says something like, "O mighty Lucifer, how far thou hast fallen from heaven." The king(?) was simply refering to the nearness of the dawn, but Milton took this line and based the entire mythos of the heavenly revolt upon it... DLMcK ------------------------------ Subject: "The Dragon Waiting", by John M. Ford Date: 19 May 85 03:04:39 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne I wish to add my vote to the strong praise for "The Dragon Waiting". It has been a long time since I've read a historical fiction of such power and clarity, where every second chapter is not devoted to one character getting into another's bed. Ford's writing is clear, lucid, and swiftly moving, with a clear grasp of where it's going. Readers who found this in "The Final Reflection" are likely to be even more impressed with it in "The Dragon Waiting", which is a larger and, for my preferences, better story. I found my moderately good knowledge of German useful in places, as some sentences are given in German. I can't tell how easily a non-German speaker might pick up the meaning from the context. I don't recall whether there are any in Italian, though I have the impression there are one or two. A little knowledge of Welsh (which he often calls "Cymric", probably to help one feel the viewpoint of the characters from Wales, whose name in Welsh is "Cymru") would help with a few of the place names, but it's not at all essential: the only Welsh word in the book is "ie", which, to judge by its context, must mean "yes". Personally, I enjoy this sort of thing. I find it adds to the flavour and dimension of the story, and it gives you a better feel for the characters to have a taste of what is normal for them. I'm not good at reviews, so I'll stop before I get carried away. But I'll give this recommendation: if you like John Ford, or The Final Reflection, or powerful historic fiction (derived very closely from fact), or fantasy where the laws are as rigid as natural physical law (and attempting to break them has equally unpleasant consequences), read "The Dragon Waiting". Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@topaz.arpa (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Date: 16 May 85 23:09:58 GMT wab@reed.UUCP (William Baker) writes: >> What is it everyone sees wrong with STARSHIP TROOPERS? >> > The main problem with Starship Troopers is that it >glorifies war. John Rico, the main character, spends most of the >book watching his buddies get blown away, all the while moralizing >to himself on the necessity of war. In the future of Starship >Troopers, the planetary government consists exclusively of veterans >and only veterans can vote. The overall theme is that people who >do not wish to serve in the military are social parasites. > > However, even this premise can be turned on its head. The >most obvious example of this is Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War". >Haldeman takes Heinlein's premise and some of his plot and turns >the values around. It is exactly what one would expect from >someone who read Heinlein avidly but also served in Vietnam >(Haldeman). Great stuff. Another book which turns the idea on its head, and which is even closer to Starship Troopers in plot structure &c is "Naked to the Stars" by (I think) Phillip K Dick. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua} !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen ------------------------------ From: ukc!scifi@topaz.arpa (I.P.Gordon) Subject: Re: The Possibly Proper Death Litany (aka, apparently, "the Subject: Agnostics Prayer") Date: 27 May 85 19:53:07 GMT There is also an "Agnostic's Prayer" in _Chapter_House_Dune_ by Herbert. I won't include a spoiler about it. Read the book to find out. I.P.Gordon ------------------------------ From: sdlvax!dk@topaz.arpa (dk) Subject: Last and First Men Date: 16 May 85 18:28:05 GMT Many years back I read a long tome called Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon. It was published by Penguin (or at least the copy I had was). Subsequently I thought advancing years would alter my outlook on it, so I tried to find it. No dice. The old Penguin copy had gone walkies, and it is now out of print. Does anyone know of the book, and if so of any existing copies. I haven't looked hard - net news is sooooo easy. Does anyone have any comments on the book as well? ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Last and First Men Date: 19 May 85 23:24:28 GMT A request was made for Olaf Stapledon's "Last and First Men." My edition of The Last and First Men was purchased from Dover Books, in an edition with Starmaker. They still published it as of 1984. They also have Odd John and Sirius, by the same author. The last one is a favorite of mine. Dover Books address is: Dover Publications 31 East 2nd Street Mineola, NY 11501 By the way--this is a fun publisher. They specialize in reprints of otherwise out of print books. They put out lots of neat stuff like reprints of Newton and Galileo, art books, books on chess, the occult, and so on. The books are good quality large paperbacks, and are pretty inexpensive. They will send a catalog if you ask. Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 May 85 02:16:00 edt From: "David W. Levine" Subject: Trumps of doom I snagged a copy of Trumps of Doom as soon as it came out and read it at full tilt (Zelazny's style encourages reading with the RPMs up) I liked it an awful lot, look forward to the sequel and wish it was already here. I don't think the ending was terribly sadistic or unreasonable, merely tantalizing. This is nothing new, Zelazny likes to leave his readers hanging on the edge of their seats. Several of the first five Amber books leave things in a mess and the start of almost every Amber work is an exercise in keeping up with the poor confused protagonist. I don't really mind things being left where they were. Zelazny has explained most of the major questions he raised in the first three quaters of the book and clearly set the stage for the next book. He just won't tell us how his protagonist is going to do the undoable. That's not so bad. Besides, it gives us all something to look forward to. "Look ma, no spoilers" - David W. Levine dwl @ brandeis.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Mon 20 May 85 00:45:15-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: Star Dreck III: The Search for Spook I just bought the LaserDisc version of this. Has anybody noticed any of these really glaring flaws: . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!) . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried Spock in space without knowing any better? You may ask, who is "Spook"? Why, the son of Spock and Saavik, obviously!! ------------------------------ From: hpfclp!fritz@topaz.arpa (fritz) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 18 May 85 01:42:00 GMT I also loved DRAGONSLAYER (although I could have done without a few scenes, like the baby dragons munching on the girl!). I thought the dragon must obviously have been done by two different groups: one did the closeup shots (all the Land_of_the_Giant-type dragon-on-a-crane effects that were obviously huge props), and another, VERY talented group did the breath-taking scenes of the dragon in flight. The scene of the battle between the dragon and the wizard are about the best shots of a dragon I have ever seen. Gary Fritz Hewlett Packard Ft Collins, CO {ihnp4,hplabs}!hpfcla!fritz ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet... Date: 17 May 85 17:35:12 GMT 1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the movie. 2) Yes, ending was ...not up to the rest, but compare with the ending of the immortal 2001, it was probably better - unless you think that a totally irrelevant, unintelligible ending is a good thing just so they leave the theater thinking. 3) I didn't measure the obelisk thingys. You really did? "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet... Date: 19 May 85 17:13:13 GMT >> Also, the obelisk-shaped thingies were not in any way of 1X4X9 >> proportion, and why was that such a big deal? Etc., etc., etc. > > ...gosh...I thought they were...um, go to a math book, look up >the words "golden rectangle" in the index, then get back to us... What the heck are you talking about? The book 2001 and the film 2010 both say the slab is a 1x4x9 rectangular prism. Neither film shows the slab this way, making it look more like an ebony door (without handle). This has nothing whatsoever to do with a Golden Rectangle. That is a two dimensonal rectangle whose length is phi times its width. phi is (1+sqroot(5))/2. Nobody has mentioned this rectangle in relation to Clarke till now. What does a Golden rectangle have to do with anything in this discussion? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Fri 17 May 85 18:22:40-EDT From: Glen Daniels Subject: V answer... In reply to ZSTAMIR's request for information on the star-child (elizabeth) of V: Elizabeth was one of two twins borne by robin in the second mini-series (The LONG movies that, at least on american TV, were split up into 4 parts each). That wouldn't be so special, but these twins were conceived with...guess who...a VISITOR! The twins were born very close to each other, but Elizabeth was the nice-looking one. The other one was very cute, but it was a bit green and scaly. For all those with squeamish hearts, it died soon after it's birth. Elizabeth, at the end of the second mini-series, saves the universe by zapping the mothership's nuclear detonator into the OFF mode with some sort of as-yet unexplained power. She is supposed to symbolize peace and unity between two races, and other stuff like that. Hope that cleared it up a bit...this is my first contribution to SF-LOVERS... (editorial comment : I LOVE THIS DIGEST!!) Glen Daniels (ARPA : GDaniels%OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 17 May 1985 19:03:48 EDT From: Joe.Newcomer@cmu-sei.arpa Subject: SF bookstore list Well, I'm back to reading SF-lovers again, after a multiyear hiatus. Some time ago I had an idea, motivated by some enlightened self-interest, of maintaining a network directory of bookstores which handle SF. Or does anyone know of such a list already in existence? I may soon be doing some travelling, and given that I may have only a few hours in any one city would like to maximize its effectiveness by hitting the one or two good SF bookstores in that city. I'm sure others might feel the same way. If there is no such list, I will try to maintain one and send periodic updates to SF-lovers via some distribution mechanism negotiated with the editor. The sort of questions I need to know are: Name of store Address Phone No. What categories of material? New SF hardbacks New SF paperbacks New SF periodicals Used SF hardbacks Used SF paperbacks Used SF periodicals Comics Comix Role-playing game materials/publications Mystery Non-U.S. imprints (British, Canadian, Australian) Foreign Language SF General bookstore Discounted new materials? I would also appreciate getting comments: size of stock, timeliness, friendliness of people, willing to mail large purchases, accept check, charge? Interesting features, people, etc. If they are complete turkeys and should be avoided, it might be nice to know but I don't know if that info can be published non-libelously. (Perhaps a T-rating: 0 = first class folks, do yourself a favor and stop in; 10 = avoid being in the same city as these clowns). General instructions on how to get there (e.g. "2 blocks West of Angel tube stop"; "on Mumble street 2 miles west of downtown Fooburg") Please do not include chains such as Waldenbooks, B. Dalton, Atlantic, etc. If I've missed any categories of interest, feel free to supply them. Send mail directly to Newcomer@cmu-sei. Example: Far-Out Books 331 Fubar Ave. Mumble, PA 15140 (412)555-1212 (2 miles south of RR station, just off Main St.; next to Burger Blight) Used SF, hardback & paperback; New SF discounted 15% list. Standard line of new SF, several hundred used paperbacks. Has lots of British SF lines. D&D supplies. Accepts used SF in trade, 20% of cover price paid. Does mail order. Cash only, or gold ingots. Failed to ship one large order; put it back on shelves by mistake. I probably will maintain names, cities and zipcodes as database items and the rest as prose, at least for now. The number of good stores per city is sufficiently small that linear search is not unreasonable. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 17 May 1985 05:40:33-PDT From: leslie%perch.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (The Natural Professional ) Subject: London SF Bookstores The best SF Bookshop in London is 'Forbidden Planet' which is at 23 Denmark St London WC1. Its almost in Soho and around that area are / were several more. Andy Leslie Sandhurst, Surrey, England. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 May 85 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #174 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 174 Today's Topics: Books - Duane & Moorcock & Wells (4 msgs) & Wilhelm & Berserker Stories & SF Titles & Writing About Writing, Films - James Bond & 2001/2010 & Best Shorts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gitpyr!roy@topaz.arpa (Roy J. Mongiovi) Subject: Paperback "Door into Shadow" Date: 17 May 85 22:45:31 GMT Well, I picked up the paperback version of "The Door into Shadow" by Diane Duane this past week. I was startled to find, when I got it home, that this is the sequel to "The Door into Fire" which will be released in August. Is this something new, or have I been asleep? I thought the usual way is to publish volume 1 first, and then follow it up with volume 2, not vice versa.... Is this a new way to sucker money out of us? Did the publisher take statistics and determine that it wasn't good enough to just split single novels up into several volumes to make more bucks? (As an aside, I bet that if "The Lord of the Rings" was published today it would be in five volumes instead of three. Sigh.) Maybe too many people buy volume 1 and then decided not to read volume 2. What gives? Roy J. Mongiovi. Office of Computing Services. User Services. Georgia Institute of Technology. Atlanta GA 30332. (404)894-6163 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!bllklly@topaz.arpa (Bill Kelly) Subject: Elric at the End of Time Date: 20 May 85 02:44:15 GMT I just finished reading Michael Moorcock's "Elric at the End of Time". I wouldn't recommend it unless you're a Moorcock/Elric completist. Although it's billed as 'the seventh book of Elric of Melnibone,' it actually contains just two Elric short stories, which I would not rank among the best of the series. These occur during some of the earlier books, with (weak) plot devices to keep them from contradicting what was already written. ("...you will recall every incident that occurred...but only in your dreams.) If you're a fan of Moorcock's other series(es?), you may enjoy the title story, which brings together Elric with Una Persson et al. Otherwise, the story is pretty inconsequential. There is an interesting essay by Moorcock on the symbolism and philosophy behind the Elric stories. Again, for completists. The rest is pretty much filler. There are several sword and sorcery stories about Sojan Shieldbearer, which Moorcock wrote at 17. To tell the truth, they're not very good. There's also a history of New Worlds magazine, and an amusing, unrelated short story. I was disappointed by this book, because it's not what I expected -- another volume in the Elric series. That's what the front and back cover and inside page implied to me. That'll teach me to look for a table of contents! Don't be fooled. P.S. Another great Michael Whelan cover -- almost worth the price of the book. Now if only he could get it through his head that Elric's strength comes from sorcery and drugs, not from bulging muscles! Bi|| {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly Ke||y 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 May 85 13:40:35 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: H.G. Wells From Peter Kendell: > From Barry Margolin: >> Just to set the record straight, the film The Man Who Could Work >> Miracles is based on the short story of the same name by a rel- >> atively unknown author named H.G Wells ... > > FLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAMEFLAME > H.G. Wells unknown??? When and where were you born??? To speak of > one of the founders of modern SF like this is ridiculous.... Calm down, Mr. Kendell. Mr. Margolin was merely using a relatively unknown rhetorical form which we silly people call "Irony". I-RO-NY n. . . . 1. a method of humorous or subtly sarcastic expression in which the intended meaning of the words used is the direct opposite of their usual sense [the _irony_ of calling a stupid plan "clever"]. Trust me on this. No even moderately literate reader of SF (in fact, almost no moderately literate readers of non-SF) is unaware of H.G. Wells and his writings. --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax] * "Webster's New World Dictionary" is a trademark of Simon & Schuster, not to mention Bell Labs. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 18 May 85 02:47:07-PDT From: Bruce (:-) Subject: H. G. Wells >> ... the film ["The Man Who Could Work Miracles"] is based on the >> short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named >> H. G. Wells. > > H. G. Wells unknown??? When and where were you born??? ... To > speak of one of the founders of modern SF like this is ridiculous. H. G. WELLS A biography by Bruce Leban H. G. (HuGo) Wells was born in 1946 at the age of 80 in Bromley, Kent, England. In 1888, he graduated from London University with honors as a Bachelor of Science. He taught science for several years after that, but his first true claim to fame came when he invented an invisibility drug in 1897. This, unfortunately, led to his death at the hands of a mob. If it had not been for his subsequent invention of the world's first working time machine in 1895, he would never have lived to write his greatest works. Wells anticipated many modern scientific accomplishments including the tank (in /The Land Ironclads/), the submarine (in /Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea/, written under his Jules Verne pseudonym) and the rocket. The HuGo award is named after him to honor this genius. He appeared in a number of motion pictures including the radio version of "The War of the Worlds" (under the pseudonym Orson Well(e)s) and a cameo in the title song of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" (as Claude Rains). --- beepy-el (Bruce Leban, Hewlett-Packard, Palo Alto, CA) UUCP: {hplabs|hplabs|hplabs|...}!leban ARPA: leban%hplabs.csnet <"Biography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bits is bits) Subject: H G Wells: obscure Date: 18 May 85 22:32:26 GMT >From: Barry Margolin > >> From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) >> There is even a reference in the story to a similar story in the >> film THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES. > >Just to set the record straight, the film TMWCWM is based on the >short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named >H.G. Wells. Er, Barmar--you're kidding, right? Remember MIT Lecture Series Committee, and how once in awhile they show "Time After Time"? Remember the protagnist? Didn't everybody who had $4 go see this move when it came out? How about "The Time Machine"--another popular, if older, science fiction movie. See if I believe you next telethon. :-) L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 05:37:01-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: The obscure H. G. Wells > From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell) >>From: Barry Margolin >> >>Just to set the record straight, the film TMWCWM is based on the >>short story of the same name by a relatively unknown author named >>H.G. Wells.... >> barmar > > H.G. Wells unknown??? When and where were you born??? To speak of > one of the founders of modern SF like this is ridiculous. Many of > his stories (The Time Machine - it invented the time-travel genre, > War of the Worlds - better written and more exciting + logical > than any of its successors) stand up today better than the > forgotten work of later writers. You're joking, right? Well, I'm sure that Barry would've been happy to have put a :-) in his posting, but how on Earth would he guess that anyone would think he wasn't making a joke? Sheesh. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 1985 03:13 EDT From: Rob MacLachlan Subject: Kate Wilhelm's Welcome Chaos I found this book to be exciting to read, but was disappointed when in the end because many of the important parts didn't make a great deal of sense. ****** Spoiler Warning ****** The basic plot is that there is an immortality formula with one big catch: there a is 50% chance it will make you dead. The thing that I find incredible is that Ms. Wilhelm seems to think that given these odds, everyone will want to take the cure. In this situation, I would certainly wait at least a couple decades to see if the odds will improve. Admittedly it explained a number of times that it kills 50% and there is nothing that you can do about it, but there is no reason to suppose that this will remain the case once the entire world scientific establishment devotes its energies to the problem. I also find the nature of the cure rather unlikely. It is a substance fortuitously discovered in a bacteria culture which magically revamps your immune system. The ways that your body can fail are many and complex. I doubt that any one substance, let alone a natural one, will be the answer to "immortality". If substantial life prolongation is obtained, it will probably be through a large collection of carefully designed treatments. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri 17 May 85 10:18:51-MDT From: Peter Badovinatz Subject: Berserker Stories Hi. I just received my copy of _Limits_ by Larry Niven (through the SFBC) and read "A Teardrop Falls", a berserker story. Incredible as it may seem, this is my first berserker story. As a result, it has gotten me intererested in reading more berserker stories. So, my request is actually quite simple. I would like pointers to either berserker short stories or novels, and possibly some opinions as to their quality. Please reply directly to *me*, not the net. I can post a summary of what I receive to the net to save net space. Thanks in advance, Peter R Badovinatz ARPA: badovinatz@utah-20 Univ of Utah CS Dept UUCP: ...!utah-cs!badovin ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Pet Peeve with SF Titles Date: 18 May 85 19:13:27 GMT This is one of my pet peeves with some science fiction writers. Back in the days of the Saturday afternoon serials they would give them flambouyant names line KING OF THE ROCKET MEN. This would conjure up in kiddees' minds some society of rocket scientists somewhere and some super-scientist ruling over it. Actually it was about one man with a rocket suit named Jeff King. So the "rocket men" are all one man named King. This title promises one sort of story and the film delivers something fairly different with the implicit statement "Oh, sorry if you misunderstood our title." In fact, we see the same game played by respected science fiction authors. A prime example just came to my attention. Orsen Scott Card titled a recent novel ENDER'S GAME. That title conjures up interesting ideas. In fact many games can be turned over in the end-game. Players in various games can "shoot-the-moon" as they see some sort of game coming to an end. Particularly since they have nothing to lose. Somebody with a good endgame plan can make any sort of game interesting. This is just the principle that might make Card's alien invasion story interesting. It may even be there. But I just read a review of the story that said the story took its name from the main character named Ender. "Oh, sorry if you misunderstood the title." Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@topaz.arpa (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Re: Writing about writing Date: 18 May 85 00:23:22 GMT The title of the Ursula LeGuin book is _The Language of the Night: Essays on Fantasy and Science Fiction_. Highly recommended. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 85 08:11 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Fleming's 007 vs. Broccoli's 007 > From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) > Also, occasionally the film maker wants to make a faithful > adaptation but does not have the rights to the story. Sound > far-fetched? They are adapting the film but don't have the rights > to do the story? Ian Fleming sold only a few of his novels to the > films but he sold all of the titles. That is why the James Bond > films soured after THUNDERBALL. Not exactly. Fleming sold both titles and stories to Albert Broccoli. The only case where he sold the title but not the story was for The Spy Who Loved Me. Fleming was somewhat embarrassed about this book, for which I can hardly blame him. On Her Majesty's Secret Service followed the book to the letter (with the exception of being out of sequence - it should have preceded You Only Live Twice instead of following it). The rest of the films ignored the books because the producer felt that it was SF hardware, lots of women, exotic locations and car/boat/plane/... chases which made money. Of course, there were some pretty good reasons NOT to use the stories as Fleming wrote them. Moonraker the book was pretty dated by the time the film (perhaps the series' worst) was made. And For Your Eyes Only, Octopussy and From A View To A Kill were all too short to be used as the basis for films, although the film of Octopussy DID use the short stories Octopussy and The Property Of A Lady to pretty good effect. Anyway, now that the producers have run out of Fleming's titles (the only ones left are from a couple of short stories, and somehow I don't think we'll see a 007 film called The Hildebrand Rarity), they have the rights to make up their own titles as well as the story lines. ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: 2001/2010 non-Golden Rectangle (Black Monolith) Date: 20 May 85 16:51:35 GMT Ebony door? Well, by golly, it seems to me that it *was* a door. And as far as its "stated" dimensions (1x4x9), it certainly ain't no Golden Rectangle, but the dimensions *are* the first three primes squared. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 17 May 85 18:31:10-EDT From: Glen Daniels Subject: Best of shorts poll Small query for all of you out there... In your opinion, what are the BEST SF shorts? I would really like to have a consensus of votes from the SF-Lovers people, to see which ones I should watch for that I haven't seen yet, if for no other reason... Those which I feel are the best so-far: "The Wizard of Speed and Time" -- Mike Jitlov (Great effects - funny - billions of hidden messages...) "Bambi vs. Godzilla" -- ??? (no explanation needed) "Variations on a Theme : the Princess and the Dragon" (or something like that) -- ??? (Many hilarious spoofs on the classic princess-dragon-prince story. Watch for it if you haven't seen it...) Any and all replies would be appreciated. Thanks, all! Glen Daniels ARPA : GDaniels%OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA CHAOS: GDaniels@MIT-OZ ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 May 85 1129-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #175 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 21 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 175 Today's Topics: Books - Grinnell & Sequels & A Request & SF Titles, Films - Upcoming Movies, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today & Criticizing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 05:26:36-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: David Grinnell > From: hpfcms!mpm@topaz.arpa (mpm) (Mike McCarthy) > The name of the book is "Edge of Time" by David Grinnell. Ace > Books published it in the late 60s. I too found it engrossing. > In fact, I recently reread it and found that it remained a good > read. (You may find a copy in a used book store; there are lots > of such shops in Denver.) By the way, my old Ace books show that > Grinnell wrote another book called "Across Time" (I think), which > I've never read. "David Grinnell" (who was, in reality, Donald Wollheim) wrote five novels, plus another one in collaboration with Lin Carter. All were published in hardcover by Avalon and in paperback by Ace, except for the last book, which was a paperback original from Ace. ACROSS TIME 1957 EDGE OF TIME 1958 THE MARTIAN MISSILE 1959 DESTINY'S ORBIT 1961-|-- (these two are connected) DESTINATION: SATURN 1967-| [with Carter] TO VENUS! TO VENUS! 1970 --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Subject: In re: J. Hawthorne's series flame Date: 17 May 85 11:43:59 EDT (Fri) From: Burgess Allison Cc: crash!bnw@sdcsvax.ARPA > I agree with Jennifer that it is often difficult-to-impossible >to figure out in advance that an author has presented us with the >first book in a series. ... Series segments ought to be able to >stand on their own merit. I think the latter point is much the better. Even if a book is *touted* as being part of a series, I'm *still* offended by the cliffhanger. I just finished the 2nd volume in Gerrold's War of the Chtorr series. Gerrold can get you hooked in a story that's so fast-moving and action-packed that you're almost afraid to put it down 'cause you might miss something. Then he denigrates his own writing abilities by using a cheap hook--the cliffhanger--to try and get you to read the next in the series. It's like he thought he was writing for Lost In Space--i.e., so bad that that's the only way to get you to tune in next week. If the writing was really bad, or the book really awful, then I could excuse an author for trying *whatever* ploy he or she thought might sell the next book. It's like an ugly hooker wearing the lowest-cut, brightest-red dress she can find. But if someone I respect feels that she has to wear that dress in order to be attractive, then I'm embarrassed for her lack of self esteem; and if I'm the intended audience (readership in this analogy), then I'm offended that she thinks so little of *me*. O.K., fire away. ------------------------------ From: columbia!eppstein@topaz.arpa (David Eppstein) Subject: Yet another name that story Date: 19 May 85 05:57:31 GMT I read this short story a while back and have since forgotten where and would like to read it again. If I had to guess at where it appeared I would say Analog a year or so back except I've looked through my back issues and can't find it. Anyway, the plot: It starts out with a (student, woman) psychologist visiting another woman who's been put away as a schizophrenic. Then there's this sort of segue, and it ends up in the patient's supposedly imaginary universe where there are only women and one of the women is giving virgin birth to her daughter and the psychologist person had been the crazy one but she's over it now. No I'm not thinking of "Your faces oh my sisters, your faces filled with light". The double universe there is very similar but the plot is not. I guess replies should go by mail. But you'll have to figure it out from the header, because I have no idea who we talk to. David Eppstein ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (P.S.CHISHOLM) Subject: Re: Pet Peeve with SF Titles (ENDER'S GAME) Date: 20 May 85 21:52:23 GMT leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: > Orsen Scott Card titled a recent novel ENDER'S GAME. That title > conjures up interesting ideas. In fact many games can be turned > over in the end-game. Players in various games can > "shoot-the-moon" as they see some sort of game coming to an end. > Particularly since they have nothing to lose. Somebody with a > good endgame plan can make any sort of game interesting. This is > just the principle that might make Card's alien invasion story > interesting. It may even be there. But I just read a review of > the story that said the story took its name from the main > character named Ender. "Oh, sorry if you misunderstood the > title." Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper Mark, you ignorant vid. I'm sorry if watching all those childish " Sci Fi" movies has rotted your brain to the point where you can't read anything more complicated than credits. Maybe pinning your hopes on such trash, only to have them dashed against the cruel reality of Grade B Hollywood refuse, has soured you to the point where you can no longer dream, no longer hope, no longer do any more than pick nits on peripheral issues. But what can you expect from someone who thinks FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH is the greatest SF film ever made? Actually, Mark brings up a good point. The title of ENDER'S GAME really is a double entendre, and I didn't even realize it. Yes, it's about a game (or several games) played by Ender Wiggen, but it's also about the final moves in . . . some other game. One way or another. Sort of. I ain't gonna spoil it for you: read the book. -Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: ginsburg@ozone.DEC (MIKE GINSBURG DTN 231-6641) Subject: Movies Date: 18 May 85 21:29:04 GMT Sci-Fi and Fantasy Movies Scheduled for Summer Release: Extracted from the Boston Globe "CALENDAR" section May 16,1985. Text in quotes is from the GLOBE. "RETURN TO OZ" (MAY 24) - Walt Disney Studios- "The story relies more on special effects than the old song and dance routine" "COCOON" (June 7) - "science fiction adventure starring a vast array of veteran stars" directed by Ron Howard ("SPLASH") "THE GOONIES" (June 7) - Steven Spielberg "shrouded in secrecy" ... "kids who discover a secret map that leads them into a ""thrilling adventure"" "THE BRIDE" (June 21) - stars Sting (DUNE) and Jennifer Beals (FLASHDANCE) "a remake of ""THE BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN"" "BACK TO THE FUTURE" (June 21) - produced by Steven Spielberg "keeping a lid on the plot" ... "story of a contemporary teenager who returns to the '50's and falls in love with his mother" Sounds like an old Robert Silverberg story I read! "RED SONJA" (June 28) - "sword, sex and sorcery epic" starring Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sandahl Bergman. "LIFEFORCE" (June 28) - "an astronaut who discovers a cargo of frozen bodies on an alien spaceship" directed by Tobe Hooper ("TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE") "THE BLACK CAULDRON" (July 12) - first major new Disney animation in 5 years. "could be the summer's surprise hit" No mention of the story but the title sounds promising. "WEIRD SCIENCE" (July 12) - "sci-fi comedy" "EXPLORERS" (July 12) - "another fantasy about kids and strange happenings" directed by Joe Dante ("GREMLINS") "MAD MAX - BEYOND THUNDERDOME" (July 12) - Tina Turner costars with Mel Gibson. "THE HEAVENLY KID" (July 19) - "teenage hotrodder sent back to Earth as an angel to help a shy teenager" "CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR" (August) - stars Daryl Hannah ("SPLASH") Enjoy, Mike Ginsburg DEC - Medical Systems Group Marlboro, Ma. Apologies if someone's already sent this out. ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II Date: 20 May 85 03:45:45 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY PART II: Meet The New Hack, Same As The Old Hack by Davis Tucker What do we mean when we use the word "hack" in reference to an author? This is often a very fuzzy phrase, and everyone has a different definition. Mine is "an author who is merely competent, and who does not attempt to improve." Stasis is death, at least in the creative world. Competency is a compliment to mechanics, journalists, and airline pilots. It is a veiled insult (or a left-handed compliment) to any creative person. To say that someone is a "competent painter" means nothing. To be merely competent is to never rise above a given level. In science fiction, competency and mediocrity go hand in glove, dancing merrily into justifiable oblivion. We all have heard the lame excuse that science fiction has different rules than mainstream fiction until it sounds like a broken record. But all it is is an excuse for being a hack, or being lazy. I'll agree that it has *more* rules: since there's much more imagination and extrapolation involved, science fiction does require more attention to detail and consistency. I could think of other rules, also. But the basic fundamentals of mainstream fiction still apply - realistic characterization, depth of understanding, plot development, correct use of descriptive passages, realistic dialogue, structural integrity, everything that is important to literature. Stephen King, for all that we may think of him as a wasted talent, knows this, and obeys all these "rules". But incredibly, many science fiction writers get away with cheap puns, absolutely wretched dialogue, ridiculously constructed plots, inconsistent character motivation, terminal cuteness (Gidget's Disease), and worst of all the "And-Then-He-Woke-Up" ending, or some kind of deus ex machina ending (sometimes both together). And the readers lap it up, and go to their conventions and sit around watching Dr. Who or Star Trek reruns and listen to their favorite author explain why he wrote his seventeenth novel on the same subject with the same characters. This is the stuff of comic books, of children's literature, though you'd get no argument from me that the Silver Surfer has more craft and art and blood, sweat, and tears than the Xanth novels, or that "Where The Wild Things Are" and the Dr. Seuss books show more imagination and extrapolation than Star Trek. A creative person is allowed to break all rules and all conventions provided that the end product is a work of art. And as many of the masters have proved, Rodin, Picasso, Joyce, Proust, etc., to break the rules you must learn them, and learn them well. But it is hard to believe that Robert Heinlein *ever* kept his overbearing personality out of the mouths of every character. "Time Enough For Love" was a nightmare - Robert A. Heinlein living forever, and worse, *talking* forever. It's a shame, but science fiction, unlike almost any other creative field, has almost no true masters that are recognized as such, no people who are held up by the aficionados as examples to young acolytes. Instead, the old hacks are deified and glorified. Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke. What would science fiction be like if instead, the examples for new writers were Aldiss, Ballard, and Silverberg? All that you will see when you wander through the science fiction section of your local bookstore is new authors who are rarely more than warmed-over Eric Frank Russell, Keith Laumer, or Gordon Dickson. Hackdom reigns supreme. Where is a new Thomas Disch? Another Barry Malzberg? Maybe even another Ursula LeGuin? For too long science fiction has built on such a narrow pedestal, and now this trash-heap is threatening to fall over on us. Barry B. Longyear, Brian Daley, Christopher Stasheff, Jerry Pournelle, Piers Anthony, Robert Asprin, Spider Robinson, Joe Haldeman, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey, etc., etc., ad nauseum. The fault does not lie with the author; it lies with the readership that continues to demand the same old crap in different colored toilets, or at the very least, continues to buy it. A readership that wants a sequel to every novel, a readership that wants a novel out of every short story, a readership that has grown fat and lazy on a diet of trash, like metropolitan raccoons. Theodore Sturgeon, who knew a thing or two about being a hack, wrote a corollary to Murphy's Law that said "90 Percent Of Everything Is Crap". So let's not wallow in the 90 percent, let's get our heads out of the toilet and go look for the 10 percent that's worth reading. It's science fiction's doom as a viable 20th Century art form if its readership continues to wallow in mediocrity, merely competent writing, and glorification of hacks. Notice that "mainstream" authors who have written science fiction for the general reading public have by and large maintained a higher standard of craft than is present in current new offerings within science fictions. "Duluth" by Gore Vidal. The "Canopus In Argus" series by Doris Lessing. A few others here and there, not many, because it's the kiss of death for a mainstream author to become associated with writing science fiction. Possibly it's because in the eyes of the reading public, that descending to write science fiction is exactly that - descending. Being lowered. Jumping in the muck with all the Trekkies. Bug Eyed Monsters. All of the hackneyed, over used, cliched constructs that science fiction has been relying on for much too long, rather than finding something new. In some ways, the general reading public has a clearer view of what science fiction is and what it isn't than those who have been reading it all their lives. The forest for the trees. That's all for now, kids. Tune in next week for "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART III: Self-Censorship And The Science Fiction Establishment". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 85 10:05 EDT From: William M. York Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics To: ames!barry@TOPAZ.ARPA >From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry) > No, not really true. An example: STAR WARS was at first seen by >Fox as middle-weight Summer fare which would at best turn a small >profit. It originally had a small promotional budget, and opened at >minor locations. It was only because Lucas had Charlie Lippincott >running around to all the SF cons for a year before it opened that >the movie took off as it did, in my opinion. SF fans were waiting >for that film with their mouths watering because of the >presentations at the cons, and this was why the lines ran around >the block when the film quietly opened. It was only after the >studios saw this initial enthusiastic reception that the film was >given a big "premiere" at the Chinese, and a big promo budget. You may consider this picking nits, but Star Wars didn't exactly open "quietly". If I remember correctly, the preceeding week's issue of Time magazine featured an article about Star Wars as the cover story, and in the article they claimed that Star Wars would be the best movie of the year (a strong prediction for May). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 May 85 1108-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #176 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 24 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 176 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Heinlein & Simak & Zelazny & Robot Stories & SF Titles & Story Request (2 msgs), Films - Terminator & 2001/2010, Miscellaneous - The Problems with SF & Criticizing & Publisher/Editor Recommendations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 May 85 17:53 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: UNIVAC, MULTIVAC, and friends > Incorrect responses centered around analogies to Univac: >(UNIVersal Automatic Computer). This is a very easy error, and I >suspect that The Good Doctor had Univac in mind when he wrote the >story. He definitely had it in mind. In fact, MULTIVAC is a play on UNIVAC, by taking UNIVAC to be UNI(=one) VACuum tube, ie a computer with one vacuum tube. (I think the first time Asimov heard the term, that was his first guess as to what it meant.) Hence MULTIVAC was just a computer with many (MULTI) vacuum tubes. I don't remember where I read this, but it was probably in an introduction to one of the MULTIVAC stories, of which there are several. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 85 21:41:57 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Stranger in a Strange Land The thing I fond oddest about various people's flames over Heinlein's sexism is the fact that in almost all of his stories in which there is any philosophizing about relationships, The Main Character always claims that women are really running things, and men are just deluded. In any case, in Expanded Horizons, Heinlein claims that Stranger was written many years before it was published, in 4 pieces that are not the obvious breakpoints of the book, and that he had held it back until the buying public could deal with the concepts put forth in the book. From what I hear, (having been too young at the time to experience it) it was a great underground success, and there is even a Crosby, Stills, and Nash song in which water brothership is mentioned... the context of the rest of the song shows how 'revolutionary' the ideas were. As for the girls tolerating Jubal, while he was an obnoxious old coot, he was a rather nice, likeable obnoxious old coot, who understood a lot people and interpersonal relationships, and mostly tried to be a good friend to the people he liked. I could love such a man... although I would probably have the good sense not to marry him. ttfn /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 05:11:23-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Simak bibliography > From: Deryk Barker > Does anyone out there have a Simak bibliography? (Jayembee?). Well, here's a brief bibliography --- books published in the US: THE CREATOR 1946 [booklet] COSMIC ENGINEERS 1950 EMPIRE 1951 TIME AND AGAIN 1951 a.k.a. FIRST HE DIED CITY 1952 [collection] The Ace paperback editions since 1978 include an additional story first published in 1973. RING AROUND THE SUN 1953 STRANGERS IN THE UNIVERSE 1956 [collection] The Berkley paperback edition is abridged. THE WORLDS OF CLIFFORD SIMAK 1960 [collection] a.k.a. OTHER WORLDS OF CLIFFORD SIMAK (abidriged) TIME IS THE SIMPLEST THING 1961 THE TROUBLE WITH TYCHO 1961 ALL THE TRAPS OF EARTH 1962 [collection] The MacFadden paperback edition is abridged. THEY WALKED LIKE MEN 1962 WAY STATION 1963 WORLDS WITHOUT END 1964 [collection] ALL FLESH IS GRASS 1965 BEST SF STORIES OF CLIFFORD SIMAK 1967 THE WEREWOLF PRINCIPLE 1967 WHY CALL THEM BACK FROM HEAVEN? 1967 THE GOBLIN RESERVATION 1968 SO BRIGHT THE VISION 1968 [collection] OUT OF THEIR MINDS 1970 A CHOICE OF GODS 1971 DESTINY DOLL 1971 CEMETARY WORLD 1973 OUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN 1974 THE BEST OF CLIFFORD D. SIMAK 1975 [collection] ENCHANTED PILGRIMAGE 1975 SHAKESPEARE'S PLANET 1976 A HERITAGE OF STARS 1977 SKIRMISH 1977 [collection] MASTODONIA 1978 THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE TALISMAN 1978 THE VISITORS 1980 PROJECT POPE 1981 SPECIAL DELIVERENCE 1982 WHERE THE EVIL DWELLS 1982 --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1985 at 1337-EDT Subject: Amber Waves etc From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) Finished reading the Trumps of Doom (why the sudden rash of _people_underlining_book_titles_?) last night. A classic case of "if you liked the other books in the series ...". One complaint is that despite all the action not much really happens in this novel. It is more of a stream of consciousness type affair. One interesting note is that the book is set only a few years after the battle in chaos. Generally enjoyable though. One thing I have noticed recently is a rash of fairly reputable SF writers including their computers in a novel. There is some of this in TOD but the last Gateway story is probably a better example. I have an image of these guys being given a Trash-80 for their birthday and after a month or so the illness strikes. Getting a little tired of every protaganist being a computer whiz especially when the writer has only a superficial background to go on. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 21 May 85 12:55:07-CDT From: Pete Galvin Subject: Re: Request for stories To: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA Maybe this doesn't count, but I enjoyed _The Cyborg and the Sorcerer_ by Lawrence Watt-evans very much. It's about a cyborg, not a robot, but it's an enjoyable read anyway so I thought I should mention it. Even better is Watt-evans' series which starts with the novel _Lure of the Basilisk_. The series takes place on an alien planet with alien gods (it's fantasy, not sf). Great stuff. --Pete ------------------------------ From: orca!ariels@topaz.arpa (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: Pet Peeve with SF Titles Date: 20 May 85 05:45:50 GMT Mark Leeper wrote: > This is one of my pet peeves with some science fiction writers. > > This title promises one sort of story and the film delivers > something fairly different with the implicit statement "Oh, sorry > if you misunderstood our title." > > In fact, we see the same game played by respected science fiction > authors. A prime example just came to my attention. Orsen Scott > Card titled a recent novel ENDER'S GAME. That title conjures up > interesting ideas. In fact many games can be turned over in the > end-game. Players in various games can "shoot-the-moon" as they > see some sort of game coming to an end. Particularly since they > have nothing to lose. Somebody with a good endgame plan can make > any sort of game interesting. This is just the principle that > might make Card's alien invasion story interesting. It may even > be there. But I just read a review of the story that said the > story took its name from the main character named Ender. "Oh, > sorry if you misunderstood the title." First, "Ender's Game" is a short story (well, maybe novellette). It first appeared in Analog, and is anthologized in UNACCOMPANIED SONATA. Second, "Ender's Game" does get it's title from the name of the main character, true. But, the "Game" in the title is also very important. And the "endgame" idea is also part of the story. I understand your pet peeve, but it just doesn't wash with this particular story. Third, this story happens to be excellent (as is the entire collection). If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It's the kind of story who's plot sticks with you long after you've forgotten the title. Ariel Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 11:08:47-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: "time flowing backwards" I read a "short" story a while back and I have no idea where I put the magazine, or even if I still have it. It was about a person (alien, I believe) on the run that could "remember" the future and plan his path on what he "remembered". He had no view of the past, immediate or otherwise. (Sorry, that's all I remember) Does anyone have any idea of what I'm trying to remember? Thanks in advance. Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 85 21:32:24 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Story title request Hello, ye of eidetic memories. I'm looking for a story, probably a short story, of which I only remember the last scene (I think it is the last scene...). What I remember is: Our hero, after facing many problems and dangers, finally confronts the Ultimate Being whom he feels is the source of all these problems. The being is chortling about 'his toys', and at a distance we can see all the people in the world dancing on puppet strings which this being controls. Then, our hero notices something.... strings leading from this Ultimate Beings limbs upward into darkness. This irony, while perhaps obvious, has stayed with me a long time. Since I have been reading almost exclusively sf for quite a long time (no flames about my lack of culture, please), I am fairly sure it is an sf story, although it is possible that I am wrong. Any takers? have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ From: daemon!bobp@topaz.arpa (Robert N Perry) Subject: TERMINATOR Date: 21 May 85 16:37:42 GMT Having seen the movie about 4 times I'd like to know if anyone can tell me if there exists a book with the same story line. Title and author, please. Thanks. Robert N. Perry (Bob) Tektronix, Inc. tektronix!bobp bobp@tektronix bobp.tektronix@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet... Date: 22 May 85 01:20:59 PDT (Wed) From: Alastair Milne > 1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the > movie. If I remember the criticisim correctly, what was distressing was the idea that Jupiter's having banished the night ends all wars. Rather a stretch, I agree; but then, so was most of the Russian/American antagonism in the movie: not at all like the book. The book, in fact, had none of that, so it had no need to try to end it. I found nothing particularly wrong with Jupiter's igniting, given the machines that were available to do it. Jupiter was almost a star anyway. > 2) Yes, ending was ...not up to the rest, but compare with the >ending of the immortal 2001, it was probably better - unless you >think that a totally irrelevant, unintelligible ending is a good >thing just so they leave the theater thinking. How do you know 2001's ending was irrelevant, if you're not even sure what was being said? The only thing I didn't much care for in the ending of 2010 was that the performance of "Also Sprach Zarathusta" was a bit fast for its full power to be felt. I don't understand why they didn't use the same performance that 2001 did. But could anybody deny the beauty of that final scene on Europa, or (remembering 2001) miss how the whole story was starting again, for a new race on a new world? > 3) I didn't measure the obelisk thingys. You really did? Don't really see how anybody could, sitting in a theatre seat. To my eye, which was the most accurate instrument available (which isn't necessarily saying very much), the slabs looked close enough to 1:4:9. I certainly couldn't have told that they weren't. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 06:57:03-PDT From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) Subject: Davis Tucker's comments on fandom I was baffled by Davis Tucker's comments on the relationship between sf authors and fans. Tucker's thesis seemed to be that fans forgive bad writing if they happen to like the author personally. What fans are these? It's not enough to put one quote from one uncritical reader at the front of your piece and then condemn all fandom on that basis. No one is sacred in science fiction, not Asimov, or Clarke, or even Heinlein. In this mailing list we've seen criticism of all of them. Tucker also writes: "But given the usual nature of science fiction, if he [Dostoevski] happened to be a writer in that field today, he probably wouldn't get published, he certainly wouldn't win any awards, and he would definitely not gain any great appreciation from the science fiction readers and establishment. This is not conjecture; this is fact. " Well, no, that is conjecture because Dostoevski never did write any SF. A fact concerns something that really exists or really occurred, and a conjecture is speculation about things that might have occurred. Perhaps Dostoevski wouldn't have done well in SF, but there have certainly been obnoxious people who have succeeded handsomely. Tucker concludes by comparing Asimov to Wolfe: "But nothing he [Asimov] has written even comes close to Gene Wolfe. This isn't mere opinion - I don't truck with the idea of absolute relativism in art." An opinion is exactly what that is. There are better and worse opinions, and frankly, that is one of the worse ones. Asimov and Wolfe have completely different goals in their writing. Asimov's characters are minimal figures present in order to get the idea across. Wolfe is a mood writer, trying to create strange and wonderful scenes for the reader. Comparing them is like comparing textbooks and poetry. You may prefer to read one or the other, but they have to be judged on their own basis. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 21 May 1985 14:00:23-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: re: criticizing I normally keep quiet, but this one won't stay still. For those that criticize and tack on "I can do better than that" or "I can write better than that", I haven't yet seen someone with a BIG mouth actually sit down and do something with all those *wonderful* ideas they think they have. How about it? When are we going to hear something from you other than criticism? When are you going to do something? Why not change the story and let us hear *your* ideas? Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 85 17:42 CDT From: Patrick_Duff Subject: Wanted: Publisher and Editor reviews I will soon be contacting a publisher with a story outline and a few chapters of an SF book I am writing; I am also considering submitting a short story to one of the SF magazines. Does anyone have any advice concerning which publisher an unknown author should contact? How much difference could it make if I waited to submit my book material until after I've had a short story or two published somewhere? I'm interested in both positive and negative reviews of publishers and magazines (or magazine editors). Please give the source of your information if possible (first- hand experience, from a magazine or fanzine article, heard at a convention, etc.). regards, Patrick Patrick S. Duff, ***CR 5621*** pduff.ti-eg@csnet-relay 5049 Walker Dr. #91103 214/480-1659 (work) The Colony, TX 75056-1120 214/370-5363 (home) (a suburb of Dallas, TX) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 May 85 1141-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #177 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 25 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 177 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Spider Robinson & Stapledon & Wells (2 msgs) & Wilhelm (2 msgs) & Zelazny, Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs) & Jitlov & Japanese Animation, Radio - Jack Flanders, Miscellaneous - Space Operas & ZBS Media ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 85 11:58:51 EDT From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: Starship Troopers Gee, I had a completely different view of Starship Troopers. Admittedly, I was young at the time, and I've never heard what Heinlein thought of it, but I thought it was almost anti-military. The first attack scene comes to mind where the entire idea was to terrorize a relatively peaceful people. I can't remember if they were actually helping the bugs or were just aligned with them or just sympathetic with them, but the idea of sending down an overwhelmingly superior force to kill, destroy, and frighten indiscriminately seems like a typically military reaction and not a very pleasant nor effective one. I also saw the "bugs" as just your typical enemy. Did the government just work the soldiers (and the civilians, too, of course) into the typical military frenzy, like the view of Germans as baby eaters? Were they really bugs, or just humanoids with some buglike features? Were they really all that aggressive? What I'm saying was that they were painted so ugly by the protagonist's views that you had to say "this *must* be an exaggeration." Maybe it was just because this was when I thought Heinlein was a god, before I read so many old-man-getting-lots-of-sex-teaches- youngster-how- to-view-life stories. provan@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed 22 May 85 00:18:16-PDT From: Bruce Subject: New books by Spider Robinson /Melancholy Elephants/, "June" 1985, TOR Books, $2.95. Contains 13 short stories by Spider Robinson. Four of these stores appeared in his collection /Antinomy/. Eleven appeared in the Canadian collection of the same title. /Callahan's Secret/, "collection, in progress". [Listed in the front of /Melancholy Elephants/.] Nano-Review: Recommended. Micro-Review: The stories vary from pretty good to very good. Macro-Review: First two warnings: 1) This collection contains several stories with (as they say) "strong sexual content". If you don't like such stories, you should probably skip this book; 2) Don't read the inside front cover or back cover blurbs. They both include spoilers. I can't really write a review of this book except by reviewing each individual story and I can't really do that very well w/o spoiling them. Since you're likely to read all the stories anyway if you buy the book, I don't see much point in telling you which stories /I/ didn't like. So I'll just quote the beginning of three stories to give you a flavor of what's going on. When the upper half of an extremely fat man materialized before him over the pool table in the living room, Spud nearly swallowed his Adam's apple. But then he saw that the man was a stranger and relaxed. The blind man was watching a videotape when the phone chimed. I became aware of him five parsecs away. He rode a nickel-iron asteroid of a hundred metric tonnes as if it were an unruly steed, and he broke off chunks of it and hurled them at the stars, and he howled. ------------------------------ From: herbison@ultra.DEC (B.J.) Subject: Re: Last and First Men Date: 21 May 85 21:09:05 GMT > Many years back I read a long tome called > > Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon. > > It was published by Penguin .... > The old Penguin copy had gone walkies, and it is now out of print. > > Does anyone know of the book, and if so of any existing copies. This novel is available along with the related *Star Maker* in a book published by Dover Publications (31 East 2nd Street; Mineola, N.Y. 11501-3582), ISBN 0-486-21962. Dover is mostly a reprint house -- they release good out-of-print books in paperback (but these are books that will last with solid covers, good paper, and sewn bindings). They cover a wide variety of books; some SF, fantasy, old mysteries, textbooks, art books, games, etc. I have over 50 Dover books in my collection, and I will keep buying more. B.J. Herbison@DEC-Hudson.ARPA Herbison%Ultra.DEC@decwrl.ARPA {decvax,ucbvax,...}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-ultra!herbison ------------------------------ From: warwick@blott.DEC (Trevor Warwick, REO2/F-H2, DTN 830-4432) Subject: H.G.Wells Date: 21 May 85 07:43:01 GMT Ex-inhabitant of Bromley, Kent writes ... Indeed, H.G. was born in Bromley, the centre of the known Universe. The place he was born is marked by one of those blue plaques that the London tourist board are so fond of sticking on anything that is over 10 years old. Unfortunately, the house (in Bromley's Market Square) was demolished a *long* time ago, and the plaque is now affixed to the front of the Allders dpartment store ! trevor warwick Engineering Division, Digital Equipment Corporation, Reading, England. UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-tron!warwick ARPA: warwick%tron.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: The Man Who Could Work Miracles Date: 23 May 85 02:36:00 GMT Actually I didn't say any of the things quoted in this article, they were all in responses to my original article on SF: THE GREAT YEARS. I did not draw the connection to THE MAN WHO COULD WORK MIRACLES, I guess that was Margolin, though I not longer have the original. Nonethless, I think pete is missing his sense of humor. To call Wells a relative unknown was a facetious touch, or so I interpretted it. I was once making a list of obscure science fiction films worth watching for and included STAR WARS. I would hazard a guess that worldwide Wells is the best known science fiction author. Deservedly so. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 22 May 1985 06:08:45-PDT From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) Subject: comments on "Welcome Chaos" Here's another recommendation for Kate Wilhelm's "Welcome Chaos". It's a nice treatment of immortality injected into a present-day society. It also has one of the best-drawn villains I've seen. He's not psychotic, he's not irrationally cruel, but he is definitely evil. This is the sort of book that a good mainstream author ought to be able to do on an SF theme. ** spoiler warning ** I agree that the fact that the immortality treatment kills half its patients would probably deter most people. Remember, though, that the treatment stopped you at your present age. The longer you waited to take it, the older you would be stuck at. (However, to quote Walter Jon Williams in "Knight Moves": "The price of being eternally twenty is eternal pimples.") Also, the longer you waited, the more likely it would be that accident or disease would get you. If you are gambling for eternity, even odds don't sound too bad. I also agree that it's unlikely that an immortality treatment would be a simple antibiotic. However, it's also unlikely that even that much would have been discovered in pre-war Germany. That's just something you have to suspend your disbelief about. The fact that the treatment sterilized women would account for why it hadn't come up in the course of evolution. One thing that struck me is how Wilhelm was very definite about setting the novel in the present day. There wasn't a trace of any advanced gadgets, even ones that we might expect to see in five years. There is a home computer, for instance, but it's just a word processor connected to a modem. I think she did this to drive home the relevance of the war fever that she describes in the book. She doesn't want readers to ignore it by thinking that it is the result of an even more anti-Russian Administration. She is worried about the present government. I think we've seen some evidence for that worry even in SF-Lovers. Remember how many people complained about the ending of "2010"? (** Spoiler warning **). They didn't think that it was realistic that the ignition of Jupiter would make people forget their squabbles. I mean, really! If a second sun in the sky wouldn't distract people, what would? Even sf-lovers readers seem to think that conflict with Russia is inevitable. John Redford ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1985 10:25:07-EDT From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc To: Rob MacLachlan Subject: Welcome, Chaos ******Continued Spoiler****** >I also find the nature of the cure rather unlikely. It is a >substance fortuitously discovered in a bacteria culture which >magically revamps your immune system. The ways that your body can >fail are many and complex. I doubt that any one substance, let >alone a natural one, will be the answer to "immortality". If >substantial life prolongation is obtained, it will probably be >through a large collection of carefully designed treatments. The source of the substance was the HeLa strain of human cancer Tcells. ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1985 17:03 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" Subject: Trumps of Doom Well, I got Trumps last week (probably the last copy in Harvard Square, as it happens) and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I suppose one might not call it a cliff-hanger, but in that case I certainly don't know what else to call it. I'm certainly looking forward to the next one. Does anyone know when it will be out? Anyway, I heard that there is a lawsuit revolving around the cover art of ToD. Supposedly, there is a claim that the picture is a rip-off of a Whelan print, and that they may have to stop printing until a new cover is designed. Does anyone know if there's anything to that? ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 85 21:45:37 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Rocky Horror There is now available an album of Rocky Horror, complete with audience responses, recorded at the 8th street Playhouse in Manhattan. I do not know what it is like, nor how widespread it is, or whether it is stereo or mono. I do know it was remixed. I do not yet have the money to buy it. I have also seen a printout of a copy of the script with the responses in it. I think it is online somewhere in this great computer network, but have no idea where... any comments, netlander? /amqueue ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show Date: 21 May 85 18:06:00 GMT > From: Alan Greig > Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits > from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits of > it but not it all and as its now been released over here on video, > I'd like to try and jog my memory. I, for one, will not. RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it was destroyed by the audience participation. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1985 01:51-PDT Subject: SF shorts: The Wizzard of Speed and Time From: William "Chops" Westfield Jitlov was at the last worldcon, explaining how tWoSaT is being made into a full length feature. It may never see the light of day, since apparently he wants to have all his friends in the film and is running to union type problems, but he DID show a new, longer, version of the crosee country run. It was great. I hope the full length version does make it out... BillW ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Wed, 22 May 85 01:41:09 PDT Subject: Animation Fans Any interested persons interested in Japanese Animation please contact me. There was a letter on the net once but I have been unable to find a correct path to the sender. I am now looking to collect names of sources (and requests) to add to my list of sources locally. Has anyone seen the OFFICAL animated "The Lensman Movie"? Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc or crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 May 85 15:13 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: RE: Jack Flanders ???? "The Fourth Tower of Inverness" is a 13-week radio serial produced by ZBS Media (now The ZBS Foundation). Written and produced by one "Meatball Fulton", it aired originally back around 1970 on a number of NPR/PBS stations. A semi-sequel (also involving Jack Flanders, with a cameo appearance by Lady Jowles, and using many of the same actors and actresses) was released a couple of years later; entitled "Moon over Morocco", it was a 10-week, 10-minutes-per-day series utilizing background sounds that Meatball Fulton recorded live during a trip to Morocco. ZBS has recently produced another series, of horror and mystery stories by authors like Steven King. This series takes ZBS's quest for realistic and interesting sound effects to a new height, according to what I've read of it... I believe that they may be using binaural recording techniques. It was (and probably still is) possible to purchase copies of the Flanders serials on cassette tape for a very reasonable price. Try writing to: The ZBS Foundation Box 1201 R.D. #1 Fort Edward, New York 12828 Ask for their catalog. You might want to send them a buck or two to cover their postage costs. Be prepared to wait a while... the mystery series (and the fact that it is available for purchase) was mentioned in _Heavy Metal_ a few months ago, and I suspect that they have been swamped with queries (I send them a request for a current catalog a couple of months ago and haven't received a reply yet). ------------------------------ Subject: space "operas" Date: 22 May 85 01:06:20 PDT (Wed) From: Alastair Milne Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera" is supposed to be? The only space opera I've ever heard of is "Aniara", by Blomdahl, and that because it was on the same record with the "2001" soundtrack. I trust it is not Wagner's Valhalla elevated to literally heavenly heights, or Verdi or Donezetti re-staged with Saturn's rings as a backdrop. Acknowledging, then, that it probably has nothing to do with real opera, what is it? Thanks, Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 1985 10:44:46 EDT From: AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: ZBS MEDIA Since the name of ZBS Studios has returned to the list, I think it might be worth mentioning their latest project: a series of audiophile-quality real-time cassette recordings of various stories, using a binaural system that provides near-perfect 3-d sound when played back through headphones (no, it won't work on speakers, alas, due to some psychological phenomena that I don't fully comprehend). Among the stories already completed are Stephen King's "The Mist" and a short by Craig Strete; many more are in the prep stages right now. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 May 85 1258-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #178 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 26 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 178 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art (2 msgs), Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Lee & A Request Answered (2 msgs) & Naked to the Stars & SF Titles Films - James Bond & Star Trek III (3 msgs) & 2001/2010 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rtech!bobm@topaz.arpa (Bob Mcqueer) Subject: Re: Cover Artwork in general (really back-cover blurbs) Date: 21 May 85 20:47:03 GMT > And finally, a departing flame: Cover art can be said to be > worthwhile even if it doesn't concern the book, but can the same > be said for back- cover blurbs that badly distort the > plot/theme/tone of a novel? OR give away the ending, if they even come close to saying anything realistic about the novel. I can agree with this particular gripe completely. Of the SF books I've read recently, I'd estimate about 50-70% of the cover art to fit a reasonable visualization of the book (not always in agreement with MINE, but reasonable). However, the blurbs always seem to be missing the major point, turning every novel into a scenario for a bad movie, revealing what's going to happen, or some mixture of all of the above together with various and sundry other critical sins. Even literate, intelligent work has to be adorned by the publisher with the sort of hype that together with TV and movie promotional drivel provides employement for the modern day equivalent of a carnival barker. If a worthwile comment somehow DOES find its way to the back cover, it is usually seriously out of context. What's REALLY annoying is that I seem to be unable NOT to read the back of a book while I'm considering buying it. I would like to be able to use the back cover notes to determine if a paperback might appeal to me before plunking down my $3.95 + tax, rather than having to rely solely on familiarity with the author or on criticism gathered elsewhere. Next flame: those silly, oversized, overpriced "TRADE" paper editions! Back to scanning this group for pointers to interesting novels, since I can't tell by the cover [art | blurbs]. Bob McQueer ihnp4!amdahl!rtech!bobm ------------------------------ From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit) Subject: SF cover art (do you know Chris Foss ??) Date: 24 May 85 02:27:08 GMT For those of you who enjoy cover art as much as the contents of any SF book, check out Chris Foss. He is the one who appears on some of the British prints (Asimov: Currents_of_Space, Gods_by_themselves, Blish: Cities_in_flight to name a few..) and draws spaceships that look like space trashcans. (to an untrained eye that is :-)) His acrylic technique is WAY SUPERIOR to many commercial artists, and his realism with objects that do not exist (such as spaceships that look like trashcans :-)) is almost eerie. (This is partly due to his excellent command of 3-D design, and attention to detail.. His work is never a quick air-brush washout with trivial touch-ups..) He was actually commissioned for ALIEN, and has produced VERY GOOD designs for both the earth and the alien spaceships. (But producers felt that Geiger could scare more people s**tless with his designs :-)) He also worked on a set of sketches for DUNE, at least six years before it was made into a movie. A book of his artwork was published in late seventies, which contains most of his SF cover art as well as his earlier cover art for WW2 novels. (U know, the spitfires, U-boats, dogfights etc.) This book is a must for any SF cover-art lover. You will also find some of his artwork in a book called SPACESHIPS (I think), which is easier to get a hold of.. Oz (wizard of something or another, no doubt..) Usenet: {decvax|ihnp4|linus|allegra}!utzoo!yetti!oz Bitnet: oz@yuyetti | oz@yuleo ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell (I liked it) Date: 21 May 85 17:54:42 GMT > Dennis L. McKiernan > PS: Back in the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to remember that > Milton drew upon but a single line in the Bible to weave his > original tale. You see, in the elder days, Lucifer > (light-bringer) was the name given to the morning star. And some > biblical person (a king?) glanced up at the morning stars and > espying Lucifer says something like, "O mighty Lucifer, how far > thou hast fallen from heaven." The king(?) was simply refering to > the nearness of the dawn, but Milton took this line and based the > entire mythos of the heavenly revolt upon it... Thanks. Your information is more complete than mine. It is true that the above mentioned quote is the way that Lucifer became associated with Satan, but I didn't know that Milton was the instrument of this. I had assumed the mistake to have been made before his time. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: kallis@pen.DEC Date: 21 May 85 20:29:27 GMT Subject: The True Name of God >From: Laurence R Brothers >Actually, if you want to avoid offending orthodox jews, you won't >refer to "Y*w*h" either. Try '' (yod yod), pronounced "Adonoi". During the Medieval period, when sorcery was much in vogue, there were many attempts to invoke *a* name of God without necessarily invoking *the* Name. One approach was assuming "Ya[h]weh," as the Name, the ceremonial magician would take the (more or less) consonantal aspects, YHWH and refer to them as the "Tetragrammaton," i.e., the four-character representation (this was sometimes written enclosed in parentheses). Other names were used in a great deal of (rather dubious) ceremonial work (e.g., Shaddai, El, and Agla). Tradition states that the True Name of God was never spoken nor written down, but yet was known to the initiates of the Greater Mysteries of the Lord. How this was done was cleverly deduced by Robert Graves in his _The White Goddess_, but whether this was a real derivation or just a clever construct on Graves' part is unclear (perhaps even to Graves). -Steve Kallis, Jr. p.s.: There are some echoes of this idea of the Ancient Egyptian Words of Power, probably handed down through the Gnostics. SK ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Re: Lee's Master series Date: 21 May 85 05:51:06 GMT > I have a question. I have copies of Tanith Lee's "Night's > Master", "Death's Master", and "Delusion's Master". Someone once > mentioned that this series contained 4 books. Is this true? If > so, what is the fourth? The fourth is as yet unwritten (sigh). Also, for those of you who care, Highland Press has put out the first two of the series (Night, and Death) in a couple of VERY pretty limited editions. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 May 85 03:02:58 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: "Name that story" answered From David Eppstein: > It starts out with a (student,woman) psychologist visiting another > woman who's been put away as schizophrenic. Then there's this > sort of segue, and it ends up in the patient's supposedly imagi- > nary universe where there are only women and one of the women is > giving virgin birth to her daughter and the psychologist person > had been the crazy one but she's over it now. TAA DAA -- the story is (without a doubt) "Manikins" by John Varley. You can find it in _The_Barbie_Murders_ (now retitled _Picnic_On_ _Nearside_ for some reason). It originally appeared in Amazing, January 1976. Your synopsis is basically correct; the woman was a psychology student interviewing a schizophrenic woman. Varley seems to have the gift of being able to write as well from a woman's point of view as from a man's (whereas Heinlein, for example, does not.) This story almost had me believing that men really are nasty alien organisms . . . --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 May 85 11:35:41 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Name That Story Re David Eppstein's query (giving birth in the wimmin's universe) -- "Consider Her Ways", by John Wyndham -- that's my (unreferenced) vote. Daniel Dern ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 85 09:19:49 EDT (Wed) From: Charles Martin Subject: Naked to the Stars {\it Naked to the Stars\/} is by Gordon R. Dickson, author of the Dorsai series (or Childe Cycle, if you prefer). Not by Phillip K. Dick. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Pet Peeve with SF Titles Date: 23 May 85 02:45:39 GMT GUILTY! GUILTY!!! As I said in my original posting, I was basing my comment on something I read in a review. I was disappointed that the title seemed to refer to endgames, not the game of someone named Ender. Apparently it was both and I half stuck my foot in my mouth. I still don't like the fact a character had his name chosen as a pun. I could instead have picked NINE PRINCES IN AMBER, a picturesque title, but it is not about anyone stuck in the material Amber. That one I did read. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 85 11:21:19 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: In Defense of MOONRAKER Now, I am not a James Bond fan, but I've seen all the films but two, and to say that MOONRAKER is "perhaps the series' worst", as does Hank Shiffman, starts a little indignation flowing in me. Yes, I enjoyed MOONRAKER, as the pulp-type adventure story it is. It certainly wasn't a spy thriller, but Bond films stopped being spy thrillers with FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE (attempting to return to the genre in FOR YOUR EYES ONLY). Instead, MOONRAKER was a good "Bond film", however you want to define that. Some of the scenes I enjoyed: - the hijacking of the shuttle - the opening parachuting sequence - the dobermans out to terminate a Drax Industries employee - the discovery and activation of the space station along with the cute references to SF films (the CE3K doorchime, e.g.). Since no one asked, I thought I'd rate the films and let people know what I do consider to be the series' worst. Here they are, from best to worst: ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE - no rating. This is one I haven't seen. Most people I've spoken with say it was awful, although I have heard praise for a chase sequence on skis. NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN - no rating. I know this was a remake of THUNDERBALL, and that the critics kinda shrugged their shoulders at it. GOLDFINGER - the best. Best villain, best henchman, best music, best gadgets, and Honor Blackman (remember her from the original AVENGERS?) FROM RUSSIA, WITH LOVE - perhaps the best train movie YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE - when they thought Sean Connery was leaving the series, they gave writer Roald Dahl carte blanche as to plot. A flawed but wild film. MOONRAKER - see comments above. DOCTOR NO - of historical interest, mostly. OCTOPUSSY - nice circus sequences THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN - Christopher Lee and his funhouse LIVE AND LET DIE - Geoffrey Holder as Baron Samedi, otherwise embarassing THUNDERBALL - boring, but with the hydrofoil FOR YOUR EYES ONLY - boring, no hydrofoil THE SPY WHO LOVED ME - almost dreadful (Marvin Hamlisch's music especially; a disco "James Bond Theme"?), with bits stolen from previous Bond films CASINO ROYALE - I would dearly like to see this done as a regular Bond film, rather than as a parody. I really liked Orson Welles as Le Chiffre. Otherwise heavyhanded. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER - perfectly dreadful. Regarding future Bond films, I'd be surprised if Broccoli & co. didn't bid on the rights to the John Gardner Bond novels. Plus, there's COLONEL SUN, by Kingsley Amis/Robert Markham, in case they'd prefer to have their tie-in novels written ahead of time. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 May 85 08:35 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Star Dreck III: The Search for Spook >From: Mark Crispin > I just bought the LaserDisc version of this. Has anybody noticed > any of these really glaring flaws: > . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the > Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!) I guess you hear what you want to hear. It sounded to me like he was using some Klingonaase unit of measure. The word sounded more like KELLACONS than KILOGRAMS. > . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried > Spock in space without knowing any better? Now THAT makes sense. That never would have occurred to me. ------------------------------ Date: 22 May 1985 16:51 EDT (Wed) From: "Stephen R. Balzac" To: Mark Crispin Subject: Star Dreck III: The Search for Spook If you've read the book, Saavik was brought up on a Romulan planet. She did not learn her Vulcan heritage until later. It is entirely possible that she never knew that there was any reason to bring the body back to Vulcan. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 May 85 20:59 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: SDIII: TSfS Cc: Mark Crispin > . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried Spock in space without knowing any better? Any of the following reasons will do: 1. Saavik didn't know either, since she was raised Romulan, and only came to Vulcan later. 2. Saavik didn't know Spock "dumped" into McCoy, so she assumed he was gone, and didn't see any point in bringing the matter up, since it would just make Kirk et. al. feel worse. 3. As I recall the novelisation, there was something about Spock figuring that as a half-human, he wouldn't be allowed to contribute his "soul" (I've forgotten the vulcan word used) to the "soul bank" back on Vulcan. Perhaps he told Saavick this and/or she thought so too. > . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the > Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!) No doubt I should explain this one two. This is due to the revolutionary theory of "Berglundic relativity," which has as a consequence that D=mb^2, so that just as now physicists talk about masses (of elementary particles) in terms of Bev's and Gev's (units of energy), in the twenty-third century, they refer to distances in terms of mass. (:-), in case you hadn't guessed.) Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@topaz.arpa (showard) Subject: Re: Criticizing the critics - out of the closet... Date: 21 May 85 20:19:09 GMT > 1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the >movie. That's irrelevant. It was in the movie; it was stupid; therefore the movie contains a stupid plot device. > 2) Yes, ending was ...not up to the rest, but compare with the > ending of the immortal 2001, it was probably better - unless you > think that a totally irrelevany, unintelligible ending is a good > thing just so they leave the theater thinking. 2001 ended the way it should have--ambiguous, like the rest of the film. 2010, on the other hand, gave me the impression of: well, we've got all this stuff left over from the first film to clear up, and we've got all this US- USSR conflict, and we've shot 89 minutes--let's whip up a happy ending. > 3) I didn't measure the obelisk thingys. You really did? No, but I can tell the basic proportions of rectangular solids well enough to know that they were FAR too long (or too thin). --Steve Howard, aka Mr. Blore, the DJ who would not die ...udenva!showard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 May 85 1316-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #179 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 179 Today's Topics: Books - Duane (4 msgs) & King & Moorcock & Zelazny, Films - James Bond & Star Trek, Television - Between Time and Timbuktu & V & Android ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 May 85 12:26 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Re: Paperback "The Door into Shadow" Roy Mongiovi posted a note about "The Door into Fire" and the sequel "The Door into Shadow" (just released in paperback by Tor), and asks, > Is this a new way to sucker money out of us? The simple answer (as simple as possible given all of the twists and turns of the publishing business) is "No". The story is roughly as follows (I'm working from memory, as my library is at home, and some of this information is fifth-hand word-of-mouth). - "The Door into Fire" was Diane Duane's first novel. It was originally published back in '79 or '80 [I think] by Ballantine [ditto]. She began work on the sequel almost immediately. "The Door into Fire" was not widely distributed, and went out of print after less than six months. Shortly after she negotiated an agreement with Ballantine for the sequel, Ballantine suspended (and then completely dropped) all further publication of SF/fantasy novels. Unfortunately, they already had the rights to both books, and were reluctant to disgorge. - Several years of litigation followed. Duane was eventually able to retrieve the rights to "...Shadow", and contracted with Bluejay for a trade-press edition [came out in December '84, I think]. A few months later she was able to reclaim the rights to "...Fire", and arranged to have this volume also published in trade format by Bluejay. Both of these trade-press issues are currently in print ("...Fire" has an unfortunate number of typos - somebody didn't proofread as carefully as ought to have been done). "...Fire" was revised slightly for this edition, in order to connect more smoothly with the further-developed plot lines in "...Shadow". - Tor Books is now in the process of releasing standard paperback- format issues of both books. In keeping with the usual trade practice, there is a distinct time lag between the release of the trade-format editions and the standard paperback issues. Since "Shadow" was released first in the trade edition, it's also the first to come out in the standard format. Unfortunate, but given all of the complications that these books have faced on their way to press, it's survivable. - Duane is working on the third volume of the set (due for release at the end of this year); the fourth and final is scheduled for the end of '86. Goddess only knows what the quirks of the publishing business will due to the schedules between now and then. Some of this information is given in publisher's and author's forwards to the trade editions; I don't know if they made it into the Tor paperbacks. I'm extremely glad to see "The Door into Fire" back in print after five years of total unavailability, and to see the sequels well on the way. I recommend this series highly, with only one minor caveat - if you have a strong aversion to homo- or bi-sexual cultures, these stories will push your buttons for sure. Read them anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 May 85 17:44 PDT Subject: The Tales of the Five From: A. Marina Fournier To: gitpry!roy@topaz.arpa Roy, I don't wish to be unkind, but yes, you have been asleep. THE DOOR INTO FIRE was first published by Dell in l979. Those of us who bought it then waited 5 years to read the sequel. Meanwhile, Dell discontinued its sf line (Spider Robinson's ANTINOMY (not antimony, trust me) was at the same time in print AND discontinued), and Diane, as rumour had it, got about half-way through writing the sequel when she dropped out of the circle of writers, and started hanging out with cartoonists, and began doing that instead... Her fans were in a bind: no sequel, no way for new folk to be told how to buy the book (it was briefly in print in Britain, and its cover was just as bad as Dell's cover for DIF). Since then, Diane has made up for lost time (once she finished, she had to find a publisher), with two Star Trek novels ("Fun to write, but my editor says I can't write them anymore, because the other projects need work"--at WorldCon), a children's book called SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD (Atheneum Pr.), with at least two sequels to that forthcoming, and assorted short stories, one in the DIF/DIS/Tales of the Five universe, and one in the Thieves' World universe, and perhaps some others I've missed. Actually, the August referred to was LAST August: it's available now from Bluejay, otherwise I wouldn't have a copy of it. DON'T NOT READ THE OVERTURE-- I was halfway through it, in a friend's copy, when I decided I had to get my own. I really suffered while waiting for her to get her stuff together and write again--I like her sense of humor, and the Tales of the Five universe is one I'd like to visit--us techno-pagans have real problems when we're away from the gods of Print and Film. However, the gods of poetry, Earth, night sky, and dance call us, too. Reading her books (but not just hers) give me the same sort of high I get after the Star Wars, Fred & Ginger, and Gene Kelly films. LOCUS magazine should be available through any sf-specialty bookstore in your area, or some of the better newsstands. It's a monthly, and it enables you to keep up with publishing news and bios of the authors whose works you read. It should keep you from "falling asleep" again. Sweet dreams, A. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Paperback "Door into Shadow" Date: 21 May 85 05:57:03 GMT > Well, I picked up the paperback version of "The Door into Shadow" > by Diane Duane this past week. I was startled to find, when I got > it home, that this is the sequel to "The Door into Fire" which > will be released in August. Is this something new, or have I been > asleep? You have been asleep. "The Door into Fire" was orignally printed about 1980 (about, my copy is buried in a box at the moment) be DELL. However, I am pretty sure I have seen copies of "Fire" floating about in the new Bluejay editions fairly recently. In any case, I recommend you go and i) Read Door into Shadow ii) Find, then read "Door into Fire" they are both excellent works. I have read all six of her novels, and I think she is one of the best up and coming writers we have around. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Paperback "Door into Shadow" Date: 21 May 85 18:08:58 GMT I hope you aren't going to be overwhelmed by responses to this, but I'd feel really stupid to have held off on answering and found that everone else did, too. DOOR INTO FIRE was published several years ago. It is a contender on my private Best First Novel contest. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: cbscc!rsu@topaz.arpa (Rick Urban) Subject: Bachman/King Omnibus Date: 23 May 85 16:07:17 GMT For those who are interested, the omnibus edition of the first four novels written by Stephen King under the pseudonym of Richard Bachman will be printed by New American Library on October 31, 1985 (my source is the publicity department at NAL). Rick Urban AT&T Network Systems Columbus, Ohio ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!rsu ------------------------------ From: umn-cs!goldman@topaz.arpa (Matthew D. Goldman ) Subject: Re: Elric at the End of Time Date: 22 May 85 02:47:57 GMT I liked it. It gave an interesting insite to yet another aspect of MM's universe. Matthew Goldman Computer Science Department University of Minnesota ...ihnp4{!stolaf}!umn-cs!goldman ------------------------------ From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar) Subject: Re: Amber Waves etc (computers in SF) Date: 23 May 85 18:11:06 GMT > One thing I have noticed recently is a rash of fairly > reputable SF writers including their computers in a novel. There > is some of this in TOD but the last Gateway story is probably a > better example. I have an image of these guys being given a > Trash-80 for their birthday and after a month or so the illness > strikes. Getting a little tired of every protaganist being a > computer whiz especially when the writer has only a superficial > background to go on. Zelazny wrote "Coils" with Saberhagen (sp?) many moons ago, before it was a craze. He also wrote "The Changling" and another one in the same world. All three of these did a goo job of dealing with technology, and "Coils" with computers specifically. I hope that you were not grouping Zelazny in the "... writer has only a superficial background...". Though, I must admit, I was not too wild about the Ghostwheel. But it was a bit more than your average computer ... :-) David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber ARPA: davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk%amber@dartmouth ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Fleming's 007 vs. Broccoli's 007 Date: 23 May 85 03:39:10 GMT >From: Hank Shiffman > >>From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) >> Also, occasionally the film maker wants to make a faithful >>adaptation but does not have the rights to the story. Sound >>far-fetched? They are adapting the film but don't have the rights >>to do the story? Ian Fleming sold only a few of his novels to the >>films but he sold all of the titles. That is why the James Bond >>films soured after THUNDERBALL. > >Not exactly. Fleming sold both titles and stories to Albert >Broccoli. The rest of the films ignored the books because the >producer felt that it was SF hardware, lots of women, exotic >locations and car/boat/plane/... chases which made money. My "facts" are based on hearsay and reading Variety. I don't remember the source of my information. I (gulp!) bow to your better knowledge, if it is better. Where did you hear it? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wed 22 May 85 22:37:01-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Re: Star Trek > From: Mark Crispin > . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the > Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!) This is perfectly reasonable. You simply use E=MC^2 to convert kilograms to energy (= 1.5E11 kg m^2/sec^2) and then divide this into the Gravitational constant, G (= 6.67 kg m^3/sec^2) to get 4.45E-11 meters. Well, maybe that is a /bit/ unreasonable.... > . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried > Spock in space without knowing any better? There actually /is/ a good explanation here. You see, Saavik is actually half Vulcan and half Romulan and was not raised on Vulcan. It is quite possible that she wouldn't know anything about Vulcan "afterlife". [This information is based on info in one of the Star Trek books, I can't remember which one.] ------------------------------ From: oliveb!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Obscure PBS show? Date: 18 May 85 03:40:42 GMT Many years ago I saw a show on PBS that I would love to get on tape or at least see just ONE MORE TIME. IT was called "Between Time and Timbuktu (sp)" and I saw it on WGBH (who I think produced it). I believe that it was written by Kurt Vonnegut. Does anyone remember? How about this triple feature... Between Time and Timbuktu Lathe of Heaven Overdrawn at the Memory Bank A PBS SF overload. Gary (hplabs,allegra,ihnp4)oliveb!olivee!gnome ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 23 May 1985 07:38:40-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Reply to request for info on "V" I have to take pity on Tamir, who asks: >I missed the first episode of V, and have no idea who Elizabeth >is... or her roll as the Star Child Well, it's clear that the role of Elizabeth in the movie is to provide the inevitable "blond beauty" without whom no television show can provide more than one season's worth of plots. But seriously, if you try to watch the V series without having seen the preceding two TV movies, you might well be lost. But don't keep watching the drivel just to find out who the Star Child is -- I'll spare you the embarrassment and pain: In the first movie, a red-haired teenager falls for a lizard guy, who's wearing a preppie face. She gets captured by the Lizard Lady, herself, Diana, who has become bored with her affair with the same lizard guy, and decides she wants to watch him "make it" with the red-head -- all set up as a "scientific experiment," of course. Well, the result of that is a pregnant red-head. Eventually the red-head joins the rebels, and goes into labor. Lucky for her, the leader of the rebels is a nice lady doctor, huh? She has two offspring, first the normal-looking girl-child. The punch line is that the baby girl has a lizard tongue. Then, if that wasn't punchy enough, a baby lizard pops out, and, fortunately, dies soon after. The baby girl is, of course, the Star Child, who has some major significance to the Lizard Lady, who keeps trying to capture Elizabeth. I can't believe this series continues. I stopped watching last fall when the plots stopped making sense. I watched it this week, and couldn't keep my attention on it -- the dialog sounded like a repeat of an earlier show. How this clears up the confusion for you, though ------------------------------ Date: 23 May 1985 13:49-PDT Subject: Android From: Raymond Bates A great move "Android" is going to be on HBO (a cable tv station) Wednesday, May 29 at 8:00 pm. This movie didn't get the wide distribution it deserved. Here is a old review which was printed in SF-Lovers last year: Date: 14 Feb 84 9:49:56-PST (Tue) From: menlo70!nsc!chuqui @ Ucb-Vax Subject: Android (some plot discussion) Over the weekend I went and saw the new movie 'Android' starring Klaus (Nosferatu) Kinski. This is a small budget (not low budget) film very loosely based upon 'Frankenstein'. Kinski is a research scientist doing work on a satellite in space on androids. Android research, however, is illegal because androids have been outlawed after a group of them went berserk in Munich, killing and raping. Kinski is assisted by an adroid, Max 404 (very well played by an actor credited only as 'himself'). While the Dr. is working on the ultimate android (blond, stacked, and submissive), Max is showing signs of the Munich syndrome, with a fixation on Earth and women. A disabled ship lands on the satellite with three escaped convicts on them, one of them a woman, and the movie takes off. Any further discussion would probably give away things that are better left for the movie. Klaus Kinski is very understated in the role, and handles it very well. All of the acting in the movie is well done. The plot has some nice twists in it, the sets and special effects (only a few, thank god) are wonderful. The humor in the movie is sometimes reminiscent of Dark Star, but the overall feeling of the movie is closer to Alien or 2001. It's good. Very good. Potentially a new classic in SF. See it. Now. Rating: ****.5 (out of 5) worth full price admission AND standing in line in the rain. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 May 85 1329-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #180 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 27 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 180 Today's Topics: Books - Story Requests Answered (3 msgs), Films - Dragonslayer & The Black Cauldron & Rocky Horror & Star Trek III (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Publisher and Editor Reviews & Space Operas (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 22 May 85 11:34:57 PDT (Wednesday) From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Yet another name that story >Anyway, the plot: It starts out with a (student, woman) >psychologist visiting another woman who's been put away as a >schizophrenic. Then there's this sort of segue, and it ends up in >the patient's supposedly imaginary universe where there are only >women and one of the women is giving virgin birth to her daughter >and the psychologist person had been the crazy one but she's over >it now. This sounds like a John Varley story that I read a while ago. I think it was in his anthology "The Persistence of Vision". I don't remember the title now, but I can certainly find out if someone else doesn't beat me to it. -- Josh Susser Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 May 85 17:27:16-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #175 > Anyway, the plot: It starts out with a (student, woman) > psychologist visiting another woman who's been put away as a > schizophrenic. Then there's this sort of segue, and it ends up in > the patient's supposedly imaginary universe where there are only > women and one of the women is giving virgin birth to her daughter > and the psychologist person had been the crazy one but she's over > it now. It sounds like something in the Varley collection _The_Barbie_Murders_, which was recently reissued under another title. (Then again, it might be something I read at the same time; which won't help you tracing it.) > "THE BLACK CAULDRON" (July 12) - first major new Disney animation > in 5 years. "could be the summer's surprise hit" No mention of > the story but the title sounds promising. Is it Lloyd Alexander's _The_Black_Cauldron_, from a series of five books set in someplace nontrivially Welsh? Chronicles of Prydain, or some such? Bard ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: Story title request Date: 23 May 85 07:44:17 GMT > Our hero, after facing many problems and dangers, finally >confronts the Ultimate Being whom he feels is the source of all >these problems. The being is chortling about 'his toys', and at a >distance we can see all the people in the world dancing on puppet >strings which this being controls. Then, our hero notices >something.... strings leading from this Ultimate Beings limbs >upward into darkness. > >/amqueue This sounds to me as though it might come from Alfred Bester's long novelette, "Hell Is Forever". The story comes in a number of segments, each of which concerns itself with one of the principals. One character seeks the Ultimate Truth, and is sent to Hell as being the place where he is most likely to find it. The segment's conclusion depicts a reasonable facsimile to the scene which you have described. My copy of this story is in the Bester collection, \\The Light Fantastic// (Berkley/Putnam, 1976). Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 23 May 85 03:24:11 GMT >I also loved DRAGONSLAYER (although I could have done without a few >scenes, like the baby dragons munching on the girl!). That scene was not in the original script, I am told. It had to be put in. Why? People were coming away from the film with a tear in their eyes and a lump in their throat saying "He killed the BABY dragons???" Or at least they wanted to prevent that from happening. If you have to have your hero kill a baby something you pretty much have to establish that it was the right thing to do. I tend to be pretty ambivalent about violence in film, so the scene did not bother me (in fact I was delighted to see that they did not take the easy way out and save everyone who is virtuous -- heros do become martyrs sometimes but rarely in light fantasy films), but it seems to be one of the most common complaints about the film. >I thought the dragon must obviously have been done by two different >groups: one did the closeup shots (all the Land_of_the_Giant-type >dragon-on-a-crane effects that were obviously huge props), and >another, VERY talented group did the breathtaking scenes of the >dragon in flight. The scene of the battle between the dragon and >the wizard are about the best shots of a dragon I have ever seen. All done by Industrial Light and Magic, I think but obviously one is stop-motion and the other is full-sized mockups. The same approaches as in KING KONG ('33). Yes, the Dragon is by far the best thing about the film. She is beautiful and is the only dragon I have ever seen on film that looks like she could fly. A marvelous creations. Also she is the most sympathetic character for me. I love the scene where the visitors pull out the dragon scale to impress the wizard and his response is "You know, when a dragon gets this old it knows nothing but pain." Vermithrax Pejoritive (sp?) just wanted to live out her days and raise her babies, eating the occasional offering if it is there. When her babies are killed and she gives out that plaintive cry I really feel it myself. And she is the last of the dragons... Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccs019@topaz.arpa (Allan McKillop) Subject: Re: Movies Date: 21 May 85 23:26:52 GMT > Mike Ginsburg writes: > "THE BLACK CAULDRON" (July 12) - first major new Disney animation > in 5 years. "could be the summer's surprise hit" No mention of > the story but the title sounds promising. I read these books back when I was a small lad. They are a 5 book series written by Llyod Alexander, and are based upon Welsh legends. I lkied them when I read them, and I am looking forward to seeing Disney's adapation (especially since THE BLACK CAULDRON is the second book in the series...). Allan McKillop (...ucbvax!ucdavis!minnie!ccs019) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 23 May 85 16:37:16-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Rocky Horror Video and audience participation In response to all those who mailed me about the availablity of the video, the copy I have is on CBS/FOX video (UK) in PAL (not NTSC) Beta or VHS format. I don't know if it is available in NTSC but if anybody in the States is still interested then Snail-Mail to CBS/FOX video, London, UK should get there. The box is marked (C) CBS/FOX 1975 Cover Packaging (C) 1984 Printed and Manufactured in England. Film videos tend to be more likely to be released in the UK than in the States due to the much higher VCR ownership density over here so I doubt if its UK availability implies a US release scheduled. Thanks to all who responded with info about the audience participation particularly to Hank Shiffman (Shiffman@RAMOTH.SWW. Symbolics.COM) who mailed the text of the entire film including audience bits ! No more copies from anyone please !! Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 23 May 1985 16:47:48-PDT From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: Star Trek III > From: Mark Crispin > I just bought the LaserDisc version of this. Has anybody > noticed any of these really glaring flaws: > . When the Klingons are cloaked and getting ready to attack the > Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!) > . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently buried > Spock in space without knowing any better? It just so happens that I rented the tape of ST3 the other day, having missed it in the theatre. I recall the "5000 kilograms" as actually being something similar in sound, but not quite as ridiculous. One presumes that the lesson of Battlestar Galactica (and Star Wars) had been learned. As for Saavik not telling Kirk, perhaps only male Vulcans know it? This is hardly the most serious inconsistency in the story. For example, when Kirk shouts the Klingon equivalent of "Beam me up, Scotty", how is the Klingon transporter operator supposed to know that he is to pick up both Kirk and Spock II? And just how did Kirk's people overpower the Klingons on board with no weapons? Also, wouldn't you be a bit nervous taking a Klingon ship right into Federation territory and landing it (!!!) on Vulcan? I could go on and on. The movie went nowhere, and was pretty boring. Steve Lionel ------------------------------ From: utastro!ethan@topaz.arpa (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: SDIII: TSfS Date: 23 May 85 14:53:29 GMT >> Enterprise, its distance is reported as being 5000 kilograms(!!) > No doubt I should explain this one two. This is due to the > revolutionary theory of "Berglundic relativity," which has as a > consequence that D=mb^2, so that just as now physicists talk about > masses (of elementary particles) in terms of Bev's and Gev's > (units of energy), in the twenty-third century, they refer to > distances in terms of mass. (:-), in case you hadn't guessed.) Actually, one can already translate between mass and distance as the two are related directly to one another in two different ways. One, in GR there is an equivalence given by MassxNewton's constant/c^2=distance A distance of 5000 kilograms is therefore about 3x10^-22 centimeters! :-) Two, perhaps they meant the Compton wavelength of that amount of mass. In this case Distance= Planck's constant/(massxc). In this way we obtain about 10^-44 centimeters. Either way we see that the cloaking device is amazingly effective at close quarters! Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (P.S.CHISHOLM) Subject: Re: Wanted: Publisher and Editor reviews Date: 22 May 85 17:44:32 GMT pduff%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes: > Does anyone have any advice concerning which publisher an unknown > author should contact? In the November 1984 SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE's Market Report, Bluejay says, "Only looking for published authors". Donning/ Starblaze says, "Willing to review material by new authors": is that supposed to be encouraging or discouraging? (No matter, this month's SFC would seem to indicate they haven't been publishing as fast as they're buying, anyway.) ALL of the other major publishers will buy a good novel. If you and Asimov sent them good novels on the same day, they'd buy both. (Note that for a novel, you should send a query with an outline and sample chapters, *not* the whole novel. You don't even need to have the novel finished.) > How much difference could it make if I waited to submit my book > material until after I've had a short story or two published > somewhere? A dozen stories, published mostly in a single magazine over a period of a few years, *might* make a difference. However, most book editors don't read SF magazines. Don't wait. As to advice on what magazines to submit to: send your stories to the places you'd like to be published in. ASIMOV'S is pretty clearly the most respected magazine in the field today. ANALOG is hungry for stories, especially but not exclusively hard SF. F&SF is a bit slow. AMAZING seems to be barely surviving, but responds promptly, and is better than most magazines at giving you some comments on what's wrong. PLAYBOY and OMNI don't buy much fiction. There are some other small magazines, too, and original anthologies looking for stories on a given topic; check market reports in SFC or LOCUS. Keep your manuscripts moving. One trick I've discovered is to address the "next" pair of envelopes when you address the first. For example, when you type up the envelopes to ANALOG, also type up a pair to AMAZING. Then, if the manuscript happens to come back, stuff it RIGHT AWAY in the next set, ship it out again, and prepare another set. Don't wait for one story to sell before starting (or even submitting) the next one. If you don't have a next one, write it. For more information: SFC and LOCUS are valuable sources of information, not the least being the occasional Market Reports. WRITER'S MARKET describes manuscript mechanics, e.g., self-addressed stamped envelopes, a guide to estimating postage, suggested waiting times and pay scales. Once you've sold you first story, you can join the Science Fiction Writer's of America, which has a Handbook and a newsletter. Good luck! -Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 24 May 85 02:10:03 GMT >Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera" is >supposed to be? Westerns used to be called "horse operas" for reasons I am not sure. It may be connected to the term "soap opera". When a science fiction story was clearly just a western (a horse opera), with a blaster instead of a six-gun, aliens instead of indians, and a rocket instead of a horse, it was called a "space opera," the space equivalent of a horse opera. I think it was F&SF -- in any case one of the science fiction magazines of the '50s -- that had as part of an ad on the back cover two stories, one a western one a space opera with the identical plot. >The only space opera I've ever heard of is "Aniara", by Blomdahl, >and that because it was on the same record with the "2001" >soundtrack. I remember that record and the opera. It was based on the epic poem by Martinson. Martinson won a Nobel Prize for literature and ANIARA was his most major work as I understand it. He won a Nobel Prize in part for writing science fiction. The plot concerns a generation ship space craft that became lost in space and is destined to wander eternally. The music fits the story. I have a Columbia Masterworks recording of the whole opera, but have never had the patience to sit down and listen to it. Avon under their series Flair published the book a few years back. More than you wanted to know? Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 23 May 85 17:57:42 GMT >From: Alastair Milne > Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera" > is supposed to be? The only space opera I've ever heard of is > "Aniara", by Blomdahl, I believe the term as commonly used is related to the term "horse opera" that used to describe western TV shows and novels. The implication is that the only difference between the two genre is the level of technology while the plots and characters are otherwise interchangeable. A classic example would probably be the film "Battle Beyond the Stars" which was a remake of "The Magnificent Seven" which in turn was a remake of "The Seven Samurai". Others would be "Outland" which was a remake of "High Noon" and "Star Wars" which was at least inspired by "The Big Fortress". "Opera" in this context implies a scenario with much action and passion but little real substance, as with most classical operas. (Bet I catch some flames for that one (-:{ ). The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 May 85 1020-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #181 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 181 Today's Topics: Adminsitrivia - Lost Message and Head Crashes, Books - Duane (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Lem & Stapledon, Films - Lensman & Android & Star Trek III & The Empire Strikes Back & 2001, Radio - Jack Flanders, Miscellaneous - Dr. Who Convention & Space Operas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 May 85 09:50:28 EDT From: Saul Subject: Lost Messages Hi folks, Once again I am here to apologize for problems on this digest. In the early morning hours of Saturday we had a head crash on the system. Normally this wouldn't be too bad and wouldn't affect us except we found that the last set of backup tapes were screwed up due to a bad tape drive. This means that some of the messages that I had saved to go into a digest at a later date were lost. Some of you have complained about getting duplicate copies recently of issue #162 (and possibly others). I believe this is due to the head crash. These messages were probably among the files restored and were resent automatically by the mailer. If you sent a message for a digest before noon on Friday and do not see it appear before issue V.10 #180 please resubmit it as it was lost in the crash. Thanks for your patience. Saul ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: The Tales of the Five Date: 25 May 85 08:16:26 GMT > work"--at WorldCon), a children's book called SO YOU WANT TO BE A > WIZARD (Atheneum Pr.), with at least two sequels to that > forthcoming, Minor quibble, "So You Want to Be A Wizard" was published by Delacorte Press, not Atheneum (Delacorte is owned and operated by Doubleday). Also, the sequel is already out, it is called "Deep Wizardry", by the same publisher (and is pretty good, if you like children's books). Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 May 85 17:59 EST From: Andrew Subject: "The Door into Fire"/"The Door into Shadow" by Diane Duane gitpyr!roy@topaz.arpa (Roy J. Mongiovi) writes: > Well, I picked up the paperback version of "The Door into Shadow" > by Diane Duane this past week. I was startled to find, when I got > it home, that this is the sequel to "The Door into Fire" which > will be released in August. Is this something new, or have I been > asleep? I thought the usual way is to publish volume 1 first, and > then follow it up with volume 2, not vice versa.... "The Door into Fire" was first published by Dell in late 1979, less than a year before they decided fantasy/sf was Not What They Wanted To Carry, and canned Jim Frenkel, f/sf editor, along with their entire line except for "Dreamsnake" (by Vonda McIntyre) and "The Snow Queen" (by Joan Vinge), both Hugo/Nebula award-winning novels. "The Door into Shadow", second book in the series, was bought for the newly formed BlueJay Books (edited and published by Jim Frenkel) over four years later. As "Fire" had been out of print in the U.S. for about four years, and the only copies available were those imported from England, Frenkel decided to also bring out "Fire" in a reprint trade paperback. > Is this a new way to sucker money out of us? Did the publisher > take statistics and determine that it wasn't good enough to just > split single novels up into several volumes to make more bucks? > (As an aside, I bet that if "The Lord of the Rings" was published > today it would be in five volumes instead of three. Sigh.) Maybe > too many people buy volume 1 and then decided not to read volume > 2. What gives? I suspect that the reason "Fire" was originally released after "Shadow" in the oversized editions was to build up the market for those who wanted a uniform version of "Fire". If there isn't immediate demand for a book when it comes out, it disappears permanently from the shelves in short order. So, the publication of "Shadow" (a new novel, and therefore more likely to sell than a reprint) was set, and helped create demand for the reprinted (albeit slightly revised -- with five more years as a writer, Duane had things she wanted changed, some to strengthen the overall series) first novel. I fail to see anything objectionable in this. From there, the two month differential in the mass market paperback editions (from Tor) follows very simply. Publishers almost invariably have a standard waiting time between trade and mass market editions. Since "Shadow" was released by BlueJay before "Fire", "Shadow" is being released by Tor before "Fire". As for the Evil Plot of artificially separating big books into multi-volumed series, both "Fire" and "Shadow" can be read on their own as individual novels. What makes them a series (two of four volumes) is that they are even richer read together (and, of course, have many of the same characters and background). Andrew Sigel PS: The novels are both well worth reading. I highly recommend all of the author's works, and this includes the "young adult" fantasies "So You Want to be a Wizard?" and "Deep Wizardry", and the Star Trek novels, "The Wounded Sky" and "My Enemy, My Ally". ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 25 May 1985 20:35:04-PDT From: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: HEINLEIN REFERENCES IN MUSIC > there is even a Crosby, Stills, and Nash song in which water > brothership is mentioned... the context of the rest of the song > shows how 'revolutionary' the ideas were. While there might be a Crosby, Stills, and Nash song which mentions water brothership, or they might have recorded this song, Jefferson Airplane did mention water brothership in the song "Triad", from the album "Crown of Creation". The song is sung by Grace Slick, and is about a woman who loves two men. Her solution to the problem of which to choose is described in the song: There's just one answer that comes to me; Sister lovers, water brothers, And, in time, maybe lovers. So you see, what we can do is to try something new. I don't really see Why can't we go on as three? Quite a bit of the song is intended to convince someone that this is acceptable. At least some of the members of Jefferson Airplane have read Heinlein. A later album by Grace Slick, Paul Kantner, David Crosby, Graham Nash, and others, entitled "Blows Against the Empire" is (loosely) based on _Methusaleh's Children_. (At least it took the "hijack the starship" idea; the hijackers are hippies, unappreciated in "Amerika" (sic).) Steve Kovner UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner ARPA: kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: osiris!rob@topaz.arpa (Robert St. Amant) Subject: Lem Date: 24 May 85 16:25:22 GMT Is Stanislaw Lem still the most popular sf writer in the world? I remember hearing that said a few years ago. I've only read a couple of Pirx pieces and Mortal Engines. It's enjoyable reading. Is he popular in the U.S.? I just haven't seen that much of his work around. Rob St. Amant ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: Last and First Men Date: 25 May 85 19:24:18 GMT Try Dover Publications; I seem to recall seeing an edition of Last and First Men and Starmaker by Dover a while back. They specialize in out-of-print books; their catalogs are real eye-openers. Unfortunately, I don't have their address with me. Maybe some other net reader can oblige. I also read LaFM a number of years ago; it's worth the experience, but it seems to go on forever. I prefer some of Stapledon's shorter works, and recommend Sirius and Odd John (I think they're still in print in the Penguin editions). To the best of my knowledge, these were the first fictional treatments of artificial enhancement of mental capabilities. Olaf's style tends to be wooden at times, but his treatment of the impact of these enhancements on the characters involved is well-done. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Animation Fans Date: 24 May 85 21:03:31 GMT I think it was L.A.Con II that showed LENSMAN. Is this not official? LENSMAN seemed to take more from STAR WARS than from E. E. Smith's series. Some characters had the same name, but the "Galactic Patrol" seemed to be the same generic, no-frills organization that fights the bad guys in VOTRON (Voltron? Y'now, "I'll form the head! & etc.) Any resemblance between the plots of the movie and the books went right over my head. -Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: Android Date: 24 May 85 04:00:00 GMT Well, I too saw android last year. It was tolerable, but certainly not worth the 4.5 stars given in 2082@topaz.arpa. The production values are fairly good, and the story has one interesting twist, but otherwise it is yet another rehashing of Frankenstein. If Mary Shelly were alive and got a royalty for each time that story was redone, she would be very rich. This was yet another example of SF used as a device for a non-sf story by a writer who understands nothing of robotics, AI or space travel. Perhaps OK to watch on cable (which is dying, anyway) but not a 4 star film. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: Star Dreck III: The Search for Spook Date: 24 May 85 16:47:36 GMT > From: Hank Shiffman >>From: Mark Crispin >> . How, with Saavik on board, could Kirk have innocently >> buried Spock in space without knowing any better? > > Now THAT makes sense. That never would have occurred to me. Spock wrote in his will that he wanted to be buried in space. Apparently, he felt that being of mixed blood precluded the Vulcan religious right. Kirk would follow Spock's feelings, not having heard of the Vulcan rites. As closed mouth as Vulcans are about things like sex, I'd guess Vulcans would be too closed mouth to talk about Vulcan funerals anyway. You can try asking a Vulcan for further details yourself. Lord Kahless ------------------------------ Date: Sun 26 May 85 16:22:50-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: The Empire Strikes Back in video: the conclusion Tower Video is having a video blowout sale, and I picked up a copy of TESB in Beta HiFi for $19.99. Unlike the LaserDisc version which was compressed to 120 minutes, the videotape version is at the original speed and so is 124 minutes. The audio quality difference is SUBSTANTIAL. CBS/FOX, in their attempt to fit it on one instead of two discs, completely destroyed TESB in the LV version. The damage to the soundtrack is the most noticable, but after a while the speedup in the video becomes distracting. The videotape version, on the other hand, has great sound and okay video (I wish they did something more artistic than shooting down the center). I am tempted to write CBS/FOX demanding that they make available a two-disc version of TESB, and that any CAV "collector version" be three discs. I suggest other LV users do the same. LV should be the top-grade format for movies, and we should not tolerate economizing measures which destroy the artistic quality of what we watch. -- Mark -- ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 26 May 1985 20:26:27-PDT From: kevin%bach.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack From: anything you want with TECO and DDT) Subject: ``2001'' -- a warning MGM is currently distributing ``2001'' WITH AN INTERMISSION built into it! This intermission is of course rather jarring to the flow of the movie. (Those of you who are in the Boston area -- I attended the second showing on the first day which Coolidge Corners showed it; on my way out I talked to the people who were running the place; they agreed with my sentiments and claimed to have two projectionists working on rectifying the problem.) Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 85 16:35:41 pdt From: sonia@aids-unix (Sonia Schwartzberg) Subject: Jack Flanders I have some information on this wonderful show. Write me with a return address and I'll tell you what I know. S.Schwartzberg arpa: sonia@aids-unix ------------------------------ From: watarts!dmak@topaz.arpa (Derwin Mak) Subject: Last Chance to attend Who Party 7 Date: 20 May 85 00:34:10 GMT That's right!! In a little over a week, Who Party 7 will be history and you will have missed what will probably be Jon Pertwee's last appearance in Canada for some time. For those new to the net, Who Party 7 will take place at the Valhalla Inn (Kitchener, Ontario) on May 25 and 26. There will be many other attractions besides Jon Pertwee including panel discussions, a costume contest, displays, and dealers. The convention runs from 10am to 10pm both days and you will have to clone yourself many times over to go to all the events. For further details, send mail to dmak @ watarts or for faster results (time is running out!!) phone (519) 578-2957. Tickets may be purchased at the door or obtained in advance by sending a special delivery (normal mail will not arrive in time) letter to: Who Party 7 104 Kingston Crescent Kitchener, Ont N2B 2T7 ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 25 May 85 02:49:17 GMT Alastair Milne wants a definition of the term "Space Opera". I can do no better than refer him to the introduction by noted SF author and bibliographer Brian W. Aldiss, in his collection of such stories entitled "Space Opera" (Doubleday, 1974). Some excerpts which may help clear up the issue: "...Space opera was heady, escapist stuff, charging on without overmuch regard for logic or literacy, while often throwing off great images, excitements, and aspirations. Nowadays -- rather like grand opera -- it is considered to be in decline, and is in the hands of imitators, or else has evolved into sword-and-sorcery." [On a definition of "space opera":] "...The term is both vague and inspired, and must have been coined with both affection and some scorn, analogously with soap opera and horse opera. And, analogously with opera itself, space opera has certain conventions which are essential to it ... Ideally, the Earth must be in peril, there must be a quest and a man to match the mighty hour. That man must confront aliens and exotic creatures. Space must flow past the ports like wine from a pitcher. Blood must run down the palace steps, and ships launch out into the louring dark. There must be a woman fairer than the skies and a villain darker than a Black Hole. And all must come right in the end." There follow several excellent examples of the sub-genre. If you do not find this material sufficiently exciting (or perhaps outrageous, depending on your taste), another Aldiss anthology, \\Galactic Empires// (St. Martin's, 1976), will lead you even farther in that dimension. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 May 85 1043-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #182 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 28 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 182 Today's Topics: Books - Kurtz & Peake & Time Stories (2 msgs) & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs), Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs) & James Bond, Television - Dr. Who & PBS Shows, Miscellaneous - Space Operas (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 May 85 18:05 EST From: Andrew Subject: Katherine Kurtz About a month ago, I incorrectly stated that a collection of Deryni short stories will be appearing this summer. It would appear I was about a year premature, as the mss. was very recently sent to Del Rey, and will probably be published in about a year. As for the second novel in the new Kelson Trilogy, it should be out this September (the first time two of her books have appeared less than a year apart), and the third novel is in progress. ------------------------------ From: masscomp!carlton@topaz.arpa (Carlton Hommel) Subject: Re: Gormenghast Date: 25 May 85 03:02:10 GMT I assume what is being discussed is the Gormenghast Trilogy, by Mervyn Peake. It consists of _Titus Groan_, _Gormenghast_, and _Titus Alone_. My copy lists an original publication date of 1946, with a reissue in 1967. Alastair Milne writes: > The cover art is very good. You guys must be talking about a reissue. I have the Ballantine 1968 printing, with a blotchy read, white, and green cover. I'm glad to see the covers have been improved upon. > "Ghormenghast" is 50 (on a good day) pages of action stuffed > into 500 pages of print. By "action" I mean anything at all > happening. I think you missed the point of the book. Peake is primarily a poet and an illustrator. He didn't set out to write a rousing tale of action adventure; he was using the written word to capture the essence of characters he had already drawn. I feel very sorry for you if your copies do not have his sketches. First editions of the Ballantine release had a center insert of eight glossy pages of his work. Later editions relied solely on untextured, black ink sketches. Granted, some parts of the novels were downright dull to a 17 yr old. I found the _Titus Alone_ a grave dissapointment after _Gormenghast_. But I imagine that upon rereading, I will find new things to marvel over. Some truly great writers have their own styles. Heinlein writes of the supercompetent, Anthony of the adolescent. Vance writes travelogues, Asprin writes comedies. Decrying Peake for lack of "action-adventure" is like depreciating Hogan for lack of "love interest." > How could you make a movie of it? What is there to show? Lots of scenes stand out in my mind. The Great Fire. Barquentine chastising Steerpike. The great chase leading to Steerpike's capture. The imprisioning of the twins, Cora and Clarise. The Countess and her birds. The home life of the Prunesquallors. Flay's kitchen. The Schoolroom. And, of course, the main character, Gormenghast Castle. Dune suffered in its translation to the screen because they tried to pack 400 pages of action into a two hour movie. If we extend your 500/50 thought, we find from 150 - 200 pages of action for the entire trilogy. Just about what the serialization of Star Wars ran to. :-) Dune also suffered from an attack of excessive costume design, which took liberties with the novel. No need to experiment with Ghormenghast; Peake already described each characted in meticulous detail. Carl Hommel ------------------------------ Subject: "time flowing backwards" Date: 24 May 85 20:34:48 PDT (Fri) From: Cindy Tittle That sounds a lot like "The Golden Boy" (I *think* - it had "golden" somewhere in there). I don't remember the author. The setting was in the future, where mutants are hunted down and 'euthed'. Well, one agent comes across a golden mutant who remembers the future. They try to kill him, but can't. The interesting point of the story was made when one character, talking to the man who was hunting the mutant, asked if it wasn't a bad idea to kill off the mutants (because of something better evolving). The man replied that the mutant they *couldn't* kill would be the one that was superior. Then, at the end, when they fail to kill him, he is horrified, because the mutant has no real intelligence. Sorry so sketchy, but I read this about six years ago. Hope it helps. -Cindy ------------------------------ From: rtech!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Bulger) Subject: Re: "time flowing backwards" Date: 27 May 85 00:49:10 GMT > From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA > Speaking of time flowing backwards, I read a "short" story a while > back and I have no idea where I put the magazine, or even if I > still have it. It was about a person (alien, I believe) on the > run that could "remember" the future and plan his path on what he > "remembered". He had no view of the past, immediate or otherwise. > (Sorry, that's all I remember) This sounds like "The Golden Man" by Philip K. Dick - it's the title story of a short story collection of his. The title character is a mutant who escapes capture or danger by selecting a safe path out of his "memories" of possible futures, and who has no conception of the past. ------------------------------ To: Anne Marie Quint Subject: Re: Story title request Date: 24 May 85 22:53:31 PDT (Fri) From: Jim Hester The story in which you describe the last scene as > Our hero, after facing many problems and dangers, finally > confronts the Ultimate Being whom he feels is the source of all > these problems. The being is chortling about 'his toys', and at a > distance we can see all the people in the world dancing on puppet > strings which this being controls. Then, our hero notices > something.... strings leading from this Ultimate Beings limbs > upward into darkness. is probably "Hell is Forever", a fairly long short story by Alfred Bester (author of "Fondly Fahrenheit" and "The Stars My Destination"), collected in "The Light Fantastic". It involves six people who do terrible things, and are finally approached by the Devil, who offers them anything they want. When they ask what the price is, he says that each of them has already paid it. The story breaks up into an episode for each of them where they get their wish, and in each case their wish is twisted to be a hell for them. The "Hero" you mention is only one of these six. His wish was to meet God. He gets his wish, and as you pointed out, learns that God is himself controlled by another. Since this hero was so worried about the existence of a God, living for the rest of eternity with this knowledge was the worst thing that could happen to him. It's possible that this is not your story, since the hero who met God did not go through any problems or dangers (his was the shortest of the six episodes: the others were excellent and more intricate). I believe the God episode was the last of the six, and it may be that time has blurred the seperate heroes of each episode into one in your mind. I think this story is Great, but then I think about 80% of Bester's work is Great. That's an amasingly high percentage, considering most other major authors have each only turned out two or three of what I would call "Great". Bester's average stuff is of a quality and depth that most other authors only achieve once or twice in their carrier. Good Luck Jim ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 24 May 1985 22:09:42-PDT From: maxson%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (VAXworks dtn 223-9408) To: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: story request response - remembering the future Gaylene Callaghan requested the title of a story about a being living his life backwards in time, and thereby "remembering" his future. I dimly remember such a story entitled "The Stochastic Man", although the author, deservedly, is unremembered. Brunner? Not sure. As they say in California, "Like, the concept was way rad, but just too totally awesome for me to get into, y'know?" Wicked awesome, Mark ------------------------------ From: utflis!chai@topaz.arpa (Henry Chai) Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show Date: 24 May 85 00:07:57 GMT >> From: Alan Greig >> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits >> from this film. >From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} > There is now available an album of Rocky Horror, complete with >audience responses, recorded at the 8th street Playhouse in >Manhattan. I do not know what it is like, nor how widespread it >is, or whether it is stereo or mono. I do know it was remixed. I do >not yet have the money to buy it. I got the album for $10 (Can.) at a boxing day sale. It is a planned and rehearsed "performance" of audience participation. (by the way , it's called "The RHPS Audience Particip-(SAY IT!)-ation Album", a double-disc set) If you want to learn more about the participation bits, this is a good source. However, it doesn't even begin to compare with actually being there. For one thing, many of the lines were shouted exactly in unison by the audience, and there are relatively few 'ad libs'. Most of the visually-cued lines were left out. (e.g. "kick the tire please", "rope please" ) The mixing was not good; the sound track was stereo but parts of it came out mono, and sometimes there seems to be an echo (from the screen?). If you don't have the sound track you might think of buying it, but if you do and you're not exactly a fan, well, convince a friend to buy it so you can look at the script that's on the record sleeves! brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: > RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it was destroyed by the audience participation. Well, Mr. Brust, one person's meat is another's dioxin. There are certainly some of us who think that audience participation enhanced our enjoyment of the film. And PLEEEZZ , don't let's start another bout of discussion on whether this is GOOD or BAD! :-} Henry Chai Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai ------------------------------ From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot lear) Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show Date: 27 May 85 08:15:55 GMT >> From: Alan Greig >> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits >> from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits >> of it but not it all and as its now been released over here on >> video, I'd like to try and jog my memory. > > I, for one, will not. RHPS was sheer delight as a film > until it was destroyed by the audience participation. > -- SKZB UUUGGGHH! It has been the audience that has kept RHPS alive all these years! If it were not for the audience, Rocky would have gone in and out of the movie theatres just like any ordinary movie. The movie itself is not that funny - It's the audience that makes me laugh. However, if you do not like the audience participation, try renting a VCR tape and seeing it home. That way no one can spoil your movie. eliot lear uucp: [{allegra,seismo,ihnp4}!topaz!lear] arpa: [Lear@RU-BLUE.arpa] ------------------------------ From: x!wjr@topaz.arpa (Bill Richard) Subject: Re: Fleming's 007 vs. Broccoli's 007 Date: 24 May 85 23:24:38 GMT >>From: Hank Shiffman >>> From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) >>> Ian Fleming >>> sold only a few of his novels to the films but he sold >>> all of the titles. >>> >>Not exactly. Fleming sold both titles and stories to Albert >>Broccoli. > My "facts" are based on hearsay and reading Variety. I don't > remember the source of my information. I (gulp!) bow to your > better knowledge, if it is better. Where did you hear it? > Mark Leeper > ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper I can't speak for Mr. Shiffman but I recall reading a magazine article many years ago, right after Goldfinger became a big hit, which mentioned that Broccoli and his then partner Saltzman(sp?) had bought the film rights to all of Fleming's books except one, _Casino_Royale_, which Fleming had already sold to someone else. I'm afraid I don't remember which magazine, but it was one of the major glossies of the time (Time, Newsweek, Life, ... ?). Also in support of the idea that Broccoli & Co. bought the story rights is the fact that the films have more in common with the books than just the titles. The films usually have the same characters, the same locales, and you even find tattered remanants of the original plot line. William J. Richard @ Charles River Data Systems 983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701 Tel: (617) 626-1112 uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr ------------------------------ Date: Mon 27 May 85 18:36:14-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Dr Who on the radio The BBC has partially relented on its shelving of Dr. Who and will now produce a radio series for transmission later this year with the current tv cast playing the parts. The tv version is still scheduled to return next year. Alan ------------------------------ From: ism70!dianeh@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Obscure PBS show? Date: 24 May 85 16:14:00 GMT >Many years ago I saw a show on PBS that I would love to get on tape >or at least see just ONE MORE TIME. IT was called "Between Time >and Timbuktu (sp)" and I saw it on WGBH (who I think produced it). >I believe that it was written by Kurt Vonnegut. Does anyone >remember? >How about this triple feature... >Between Time and Timbuktu >Lathe of Heaven >Overdrawn at the Memory Bank Hear, hear!! Between_Time_and_Timbuktu:_A_Space_Odyssey is one of my all-time favorites (along with Lathe_of_Heaven, which I consider one of the best sf films ever, especially given its small budget). Between_Time... was based on several Vonnegut books, but I don't know if he did the screenplay. I've often wondered if PBS offers tapes of its shows, and I still don't know, so I'd be interested if anyone does know. Since alot of the shows are produced by the local PBS stations, there might be some problem as to who owns them, which might prevent there being available. Still, I think it'd be a great way for PBS to earn money. Sure beats the hell out a Pledge Drives! Diane ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 23 May 85 18:26:27 GMT >From: Alastair Milne > Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera" > is supposed to be? Jeez, I almost hate to do it, but -- space opera is named by association with "horse opera", i.e. 2-reel shoot'em-ups. If a movie or story can be translated from SF to Bonanza by word replacement of "phaser" with "Winchester" and "spaceship" with "noon stage" -- then it is space opera. The term has gotten to be extended to include most all mindless public-appeal SF, especially in movies (not to mention the Star Wars flicks, which I persist in thinking are not mindless); even the recent book "The Helmsman", which reads to me like a translation of Alexander Kent imitating C.S. Forester. Ghods know why 2-reel oaters became known as horse opera. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@topaz.arpa (showard) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 26 May 85 20:49:27 GMT > From: Alastair Milne > Would somebody please have pity and tell me what a space "opera" > is supposed to be? > > Acknowledging that it probably has nothing to do with real opera, > what is it? > Probably one of a long series of responses. Space opera refers to the Western-in-Space genre typified by Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon, Star Wars, et. al. The term is related to soap opera and horse opera (western). --Steve Howard -- ...udenva!showard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 May 85 1148-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #183 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 183 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art By Freas, Books - Hambly & Buckaroo Banzai & Some Reviews & A Story Request, Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs) & James Bond (3 msgs) & Star Trek III ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (Mike (I'll be mellow when I'm From: dead) Meyer) Subject: More cover art, + Date: 28 May 85 09:34:23 GMT Gee, this looks like a nice time to try this, what with cover art and the following: wildbill@ucbvax.UUCP (William J. Laubenheimer) writes: >> Our hero, after facing many problems and dangers, finally >>confronts the Ultimate Being whom he feels is the source of all >>these problems. The being is chortling about 'his toys', and at a >>distance we can see all the people in the world dancing on puppet >>strings which this being controls. Then, our hero notices >>something.... strings leading from this Ultimate Beings limbs >>upward into darkness. > >This sounds to me as though it might come from Alfred Bester's long >novelette, "Hell Is Forever". The segment's conclusion depicts a >reasonable facsimile to the scene which you have described. My copy >of this story is in the Bester collection, \\The Light Fantastic// >(Berkley/Putnam, 1976). I haven't read HIF, but it sure sounds like the illustration is on page 79 of "Frank Kelly Freas, the Art of Science Fiction." It is credited as being for "The Long Way Home," by Anderson. My memory of "TLWH" indicates that this is false [my memory says TLWH is about a starship that gets stranded out in the Oort cloud, and the crew/passengers are walking to earth], but I could easily be mistaken. FKF is, of course, one of the best SF artists ever to have put pen to paper. He consistently captures the feel of a story in a way that is otherwise all to rare. I'd like to find out what he's up to these days. He occasionally appears in his old haunt (the cover of Analog), so I think he's still around. Anyone know for sure? ------------------------------ From: oliveb!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Looking for a copy of Buckaroo Banzai (book) Date: 22 May 85 16:47:24 GMT I'm having a hard time trying to find a copy of Buckaroo Banzai by McRauch (sp). If there is anyone out there that wants to get rid of their copy, please drop me a line. Thanks, Gary (hplabs,ihnp4,allegra)oliveb!olivee!gnome ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 May 85 04:57:58 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: Some short reviews: Tiptree, Klein, Rucker I bought the latest novels by James Tiptree, Jr, T E D Klein and Rudy Rucker in hardcover because I had high expectations of them. I now find that I'm not quite satisfied with any of the books, each for different reasons, and I suppose that should teach me something about holding expectations (or buying hardcovers!). The best of the three is probably the Tiptree book, BRIGHTNESS FALLS FROM THE AIR (Tor, Feb. 1985, 382 pp.). The story involves a large cast of characters (thoughtfully laid out in an appendix at the end, which is useful for those times when you forget who does what), all of whom, for one reason or another, are present on the planet Damiem when it is passed by the final shell of ionized particles shed in the explosion of the star Vlyracocha. The spectacular auroral display and time distortions are used by the bad guys to distract from some covert activities, and the action in the novel proceeds along the lines of a genre thriller a la Alastair Maclean or Robert Ludlum. It's not all that bad a thriller, but I expected something more given the excellent past work by Tiptree/Sheldon. I was somewhat mollifed by some clever footwork at the end which casts a shadow on the usual happily-ever-after thriller ending... T E D Klein was until recently the editor of TWILIGHT ZONE MAGAZINE, and is the author of a superbly nasty horror novella called 'Children of the Kingdom'. His first novel, THE CEREMONIES (Viking, c1984, 505pp.), is a Gothic horror story about a young New Yorker who decides to rent a room for the summer on a farm in the New Jersey countryside, not realizing that he is being manipulated by a mysterious Old One who is determined to destroy the world by performing an elaborate Ceremony. The man is a student of Gothic horror, and of course a number of tributes are paid to past classics over the course of the novel. The writing is clear and straightforward, the characterizations are nicely done, but... as is the case with many other Gothics, the novel's plot unfolds at a truly glacial pace. After 500 pages, the climax just didn't seem to make up for the detailed, patient, thorough build-up. The comment by Stephen King on the back of the jacket compares this book to Straub's GHOST STORY, but I think King or Straub would have provided a more suspenseful or theatrical ending and probably would have done better at tying up loose ends. Rudy Rucker's latest novel is MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME (Bluejay, Nov. 1984, 229 pp.). For those who've read Rucker's previous stuff, such as THE SEX SPHERE or THE 57TH FRANZ KAFKA, you should know that this is a 'Harry and Fletch' story as well as a sequel to SPHERE. The idea of the story is that there exists a device called the 'blunzer', which uses free gluons to change the value of Planck's constant in the region of the operator's head, turning the operator into what amounts to God. The idea allows to Rucker to blast away at the structure of the universe, particularly in New Jersey, which gets invaded by Godzilla (GWEEEEEEEEEEENT!), taken over by large, slimy, parasitic brains, and infested by bizarre plant life (pork chop bushes?). The problem with MASTER is that the notion is just too damn powerful -- if you can do anything, it doesn't really matter what you do... The 'rolling snowball' approach to weirdness that works so well in SPHERE doesn't work at all for MASTER. Buy it in paperback. (Another good reason to buy it in paperback is the relatively poor production by Bluejay. One peeve of mine is the large point size used for the print; I read the book from cover to cover in a little more than two hours, making me wonder if the $14.95 price isn't covering a lot of extra paper...) 'Although I couldn't share Harry's pleasure at the unearthly smells, this stretch of the Jersey Turnpike was one of my favorite places. I was particularly fond of the refinery cracking towers, those great abstract totems of knotted pipe and wire. And the big storage tanks, the code-painted conduits, the webs of scaffolding, the catwalks, the great pulsing gas flares -- all sheerly functional, yet charged with surreal meaning. I felt like a cockroach in a pharmacy.' -- from MASTER Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: ukma!sean@topaz.arpa (Sean Casey) Subject: Name that story Date: 22 May 85 06:37:28 GMT I only have the vaguest recollection of this book, but I woulds really like to reread it. It takes place in the future, I believe, after all the cities have been blown up and are highly radioactive. It's about this woman, an outcast, that has this peculiar property that entropy seems to reverse around her. For example, she is walking along a highway in the desert sun, and behind her, the rusted metal of the guardrail turns gleaming. She takes up (is born with?) this band of people living in the woods. Later she takes up with some guy that seems to have come control over entropy. In the climax, there is a confrontation between them and some kind of authorities that lob an entropy grenade toward the guy, who catches it, and somehow controls it with his will. Well, there ya go...any ideas? Sean Casey Department of Mathematics University of Kentucky UUCP: {cbosgd,anlams,hasmed}!ukma!sean ARPA: ukma!sean@ANL-MCS.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon 27 May 85 18:32:51-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Yet more Rocky Horror info For all UK readers of this digest/newsgroup, Channel 4 television are showing the Rocky Horror Picture Show this Friday (31st May) at 11:30pm. I think this is its first national tv showing in the UK Alan ------------------------------ Subject: Rocky Horror Date: 28 May 85 19:13:44 EDT (Tue) From: Robert Hunter > I have also seen a printout of a copy of the script with the > responses in it. I think it is online somewhere in this great > computer network, but have no idea where... any comments, > netlander? If anyone has access to such a script, I would be very appreciative if they would send me a copy. Bob Hunter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 May 85 10:59 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: In Offense To MOONRAKER >From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst >Now, I am not a James Bond fan, but I've seen all the films but >two, and to say that MOONRAKER is "perhaps the series' worst", as >does Hank Shiffman, starts a little indignation flowing in me. Only a little? I must be losing my touch. And why indignation? Disagreement would not have surprised me, but indignation? I questioned the quality of a movie, not anyone's parentage. > >Yes, I enjoyed MOONRAKER, as the pulp-type adventure story it is. >It certainly wasn't a spy thriller, but Bond films stopped being >spy thrillers with FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE (attempting to return to >the genre in FOR YOUR EYES ONLY). Instead, MOONRAKER was a good >"Bond film", however you want to define that. Some of the scenes I >enjoyed: > >- the hijacking of the shuttle >- the opening parachuting sequence >- the dobermans out to terminate a Drax Industries employee >- the discovery and activation of the space station > >along with the cute references to SF films (the CE3K door chime, >e.g.). Yes, there were some nice visual images. However, the quality of the casting is pretty poor. I found Lois Chiles to be lacking in romantic appeal, and Michael Lonsdale as Drax was completely nonthreatening. For him to seem any more benign he would have needed to be comatose. Where are the Donovan Grants of yesteryear (or even the Emilio Largos)? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 May 85 13:56 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Re: Fleming's 007 vs. Broccoli's 007 >From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) >>Not exactly. Fleming sold both titles and stories to Albert >>Broccoli. The rest of the films ignored the books because the >>producer felt that it was SF hardware, lots of women, exotic >>locations and car/boat/plane/... chases which made money. > >My "facts" are based on hearsay and reading Variety. I don't >remember the source of my information. I (gulp!) bow to your >better knowledge, if it is better. Where did you hear it? 007 James Bond: A Report by O.F. Snelling The James Bond Dossier by Kingsley Amis (from before he wrote Colonel Sun) James Bond In The Cinema by John Brosnan Also a fair number of newspaper articles over the years and a couple of television interviews with Broccoli. ------------------------------ Date: 28-May-85 17:00 PDT From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD Subject: BOND BEGINNING CREDITS I would love to see the beginning credits to all the films again. I have always thought they were one of the high points of each Bond film. I must admit that the current (A VIEW TO A KILL) beginning was not up to the quality of the earlier films. They have done such "neat" effects with projecting images on images and combining shadows of characters on the film. Oh well, maybe the next Bond film will be better. --Bi\\ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 May 85 15:01 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Star Trek III, "kilograms", etc. What my ears heard (and, I believe, what the ST-III novelization says) is "kilogaams" - something else entirely! Seemed to correspond roughly to kilometres, plus-or-minus a factor of two or three. Re Saavik not telling Kirk why Spock's body should not be "buried in space" - the novelizations of both ST-II and -III (but neither movie, I believe) went into much detail about Saavik's background. She's not pure Vulcan, but is instead a Vulcan/Romulan hybrid, abandoned on a failed Romulan colony planet and rescued by a search party lead by Spock. As she wasn't raised on Vulcan, it's not too surprising that she'd be unfamiliar with the details of Vulcan philosophy, mysticism, etc. A pity that SF movies (and most movies in other genres, also) can't include the same amount of information as the novel they're derived from (or that is derived from them...) without being uncommercially lengthy. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 May 85 1208-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #184 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 184 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Duane & Heinlein & Wyndham & The Black Cauldron, Films - Star Trek III & 2001, Television - From Time to Timbuktu & V, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ho95b!ran@topaz.arpa (RANeinast) Subject: Re: MultivAC question (WRONGO!) Date: 29 May 85 12:01:53 GMT > A while back, when all the discussion of Asimov's Multivac >stories was taking place, I asked the burning question: 'What does >the AC at the end of Multivac et. al. stand for?'. > > I received 9 responses, of which 5 were correct. I guess >that this shows that net-landers read the classics (or maybe we're >just old). The first correct answer came from Bob Carter >, whose two-word reponse was 'Analogue Computer'. >While I strongly suspect Asimov used the US spelling of 'analog', >this is close enough and Bob may have his ten bonus points. Check >'The Last Question' in Nine Tommorows for this answer. > > Incorrect responses centered around analogies to Univac: >(UNIVersal Automatic Computer). This is a very easy error, and I >suspect that The Good Doctor had Univac in mind when he wrote the >story. Other suggestions were Algorithmic Computer, Analytic(al) >Calculator, and Asimov's Computer (or Asimov and Clarke (!)). I'm afraid that YOU are wrong. Asimov, in his autobiography ("In Memory Yet Green", p663, large-size paperback), states the origin of "Multivac". He (erroneously) thought that Univac had one vacuum tube (Uni-Vac), so a big, future machine would have many, many vacuum tubes (Multi-Vac). Therefore the AC at the end of Multivac DOESN'T STAND FOR ANYTHING. However, you are correct in that the AC at the end of Univac DOES stand for Analog Computer. Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95b!ran) AT&T-Bell Labs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 May 85 17:52 EDT From: Ben Yalow Subject: Diane Duane I showed copies of the recent discussion of "Door Into Shadow" to Diane Duane. She asked me to post the following info to clear up some questions. (The words are mine, the comments are hers). The decision for Tor to reprint DIS before reprinting DIF was due to a number of factors. As was mentioned, part of it came from the order that the books appeared from Bluejay. Also, the people at Tor felt that since there were already a large number of people who had read DIF in the Dell (or British) editions, that it would be better not to make them wait any longer for the sequel to appear in mass market, so they reprinted DIS first. They are reprinting DIF, as well. To slightly expand on A. Marina Fournier's comments on the timespan between when DIF was written and when new Duane material started to appear, the comment was "I got stuck for a while, then I got unstuck. In the meantime, I had to do something to eat." It was during that time period that she was working on various Saturday morning cartoons. A minor correction to the booklist is also required. SO YOU WANT TO BE A WIZARD was from Delacorte, not Atheneum. The sequel, DEEP WIZARDRY, is also out from Delacorte. However, it has gotten fairly poor distribution, so it may be hard to find (try bothering your local bookstore - it's the only way to tell the publisher to do something about the problem). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 01:16:07 EST From: David A. Adler Subject: RAH's defense of Starship Troopers I am not sure if this has been brought up with the recent discussion of RAH's Starship Troopers, but he responds to much of the criticisms of the story in EXPANDED UNIVERSE. Apparently, after a group of local "communists" took out full page ads in newspapers suggesting nuclear disarmament in 1958 RAH got very patriotic. He was shoked by President Eisenhower's decision to cancel nuclear testing. As a result RAH put down the manuscript for THE HERETIC (later STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND) and wrote Starship Troopers. Even RAH wrote "I still can't see how that book got a Hugo." RAH rebuts that the criticisms of the book are usually based on a failure to understand English, including: - "'Veteran' does not mean in English dictionaries or in this novel solely a person who has served in military forces. I concede that in commonest usage today it means a war veteran... but no one hesitates to speak of a veteran fireman or veteran school teacher. In STARSHIP TROOPERS it is stated flatly and more than once that nineteen out of twenty veterans are NOT military veterans. Instead, 95% of voters are what we call today 'former members of federal civil service.'" - "He/she can resign at any time other than during combat, i.e., 100% of the time for 19 out of 20; 99%+ of the time for those in the military branches of federal service." - "There is NO conscription (I am opposed to conscription for any reason at any time, war or peace, and have said so frequently...)." - [Criticism: The government in ST is militaristic] "'Militaristic' is the adjective for the noun 'militarism,' a word of several definitions but not one of them can be correctly applied to the government described in this novel. No military or civil servant can vote or hold office until after he is discharged and is again a civilian. The military tend to be dispised by most civilians and this is made explicit. A career military man is most unlikely ever to vote or hold office; he is more likely to be dead -- and if he does live through it, he'll vote for the first time at 40 or older." - [Criticism: That book glorifies the military] "It does indeed. Specifically the P.B.I., the Poor Bloody Infantry, the mudfoot who places his frail body between his loved home and the war's desolation -- but is rarely appreciated...." RAH's essay seem to answer many of the points that were brought up in the past couple weeks. The essay is quite interesting and can be found on pages 396-402 of the Ace paperback edition. RAH's response to the initial newspaper ads, "Who Are the Heirs of Patrick Henry? Stand up and be Counted," is also interesting. RAH said that "The 'Patick Henry' ad [that RAH took out in response] shocked 'em; ST outraged 'em." Sorry if this information has already been pointed out, but I thought it seemed to be relevant. DAdler (DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 28 May 1985 11:17:27-EDT From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Old Triffids paperback.... A little question: While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might it be the first PB edition of that novel? This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the Triffids," but with the original title in small print in parentheses on the cover. The cover illo itself was pretty pulpy, with a triffid menacing a frightened woman whose shredded blouse only slightly concealed her torso. It was published by Popular Library in March, 1952. Other copyrights found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 by Crowell-Collier Publishing Co. Also on the copyright page was the note, "Originally published under the title 'The Day of the Triffids.'" Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his genius. Regards (& advance thanks), Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 06:29:55 PDT From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: SF/Fantasy Movie Releases -- Black Cauldron ginsburg@ozone.DEC writes (roughly) ...The Black Cauldron....but the title sounds promising. Sounds promising? Don't you recognize it? You mean you've never read Lloyd Alexander? One of the nicest, er, maybe I should say enjoyable fantasy worlds I've ever read (no flames please, only my opinion)? Actually, these books are not good fantasy in the sense of being a cohesive world with well-designed laws which everything works by. There are too many things and beings which are unique unto themselves. But nonetheless a good read if you can read for the adventure instead of finding flaws. Note that they are apparently aimed at children and hence the endings tend towards a sort of lecturing on the truths of life. But for the most part they are okay. If you haven't read these I recommend them. Someone must think they are good; the last one of the five won the Newberry Award (not the same prestige as the Hugo perhaps, but still...) The Book of Three The Black Cauldron The Castle of Llyr Taran Wanderer The High King der Mouse {ihnp4,decvax,...}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 29 May 1985 07:10:28-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: Star Trek III >From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) >As for Saavik not telling Kirk, perhaps only male Vulcans know it? >This is hardly the most serious inconsistency in the story. For >example, when Kirk shouts the Klingon equivalent of "Beam me up, >Scotty", how is the Klingon transporter operator supposed to know >that he is to pick up both Kirk and Spock II? And just how did >Kirk's people overpower the Klingons on board with no weapons? >Also, wouldn't you be a bit nervous taking a Klingon ship right >into Federation territory and landing it (!!!) on Vulcan? I'll take them in order. 1. Immediately after yelling to be beamed up, Kirk grabbed Spock II, who was unconscious, and took him for the ride. 2. They didn't. There was only the one remaining Klingon on board the Bird of Prey. The others had either been killed in the destruction of the Enterprise or on the planet. Kirk simply appeared on the bridge weapon in hand. 3. Hmmm. A little tricky. Possibly they did most of their traveling cloaked (very energy expensive), or maybe there is a special code that can be transmitted saying 'this is a captured ship - let me come home!'. Brendan E. Boelke ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 29 May 1985 05:15:52-PDT From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Randy Dearborn, Principal From: Graphic Designer, DTN 264-5090) Subject: 2001 intermission When the film was originally released, it had an intermission. It was placed right after the scene where HAL reads the astronauts' lips. By putting the intermission back in during current showings, they are duplicating the way it was originally intended to be shown. Randy Dearborn DEC Merrimack, NH ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 May 85 15:00:25 EDT From: david@harvard.ARPA (David Kurlander) Subject: Obscure PBS SF: From Time to Timbuktu Between Time and Timbuktu was a mix of several of Kurt Vonnegut's short stories. After winning some sort of contest, the hero wins a ride on a rocket. He travels through a chrono-simplastic infindibulum, and finds himself unstuck in time and space, rather like Billy Pilgrim in Slaughterhouse Five. From this point on he uncontrollably floats in and out of several of Vonnegut's short stories. Bob and Ray play the two reporters covering the space shot. I'm not sure how frequently PBS rebroadcasts this -- you may want to write them a letter and ask. Incidentally, Georgetown University has this in their videotape library, so if you're ever in the vicinity of Washington, DC... David Kurlander ------------------------------ Date: Tue 28 May 85 13:02:31-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: V is in ... as a costume basis at conventions and masquerades. Oh well. At least it's not as bad as when Star Wars first came out and everyone was waving those silly plastic tube light sabers.... -Laurence ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II Date: 22 May 85 13:25:20 GMT > science fiction be like if instead, the examples for new writers > were Aldiss, Ballard, and Silverberg? Early Silverberg, yuck! > All that you will see when you wander through the science fiction > section of your local bookstore is new authors who are rarely more > than warmed-over Eric Frank Russell, Keith Laumer, or Gordon > Dickson. Hackdom reigns supreme. Where is a new Thomas Disch? > Another Barry Malzberg? Maybe even another Ursula LeGuin? For too > long science fiction has built on such a narrow pedestal, and now > this trash-heap is threatening to fall over on us. Barry B. > Longyear, Brian Daley, Christopher Stasheff, Jerry Pournelle, > Piers Anthony, Robert Asprin, Spider Robinson, Joe Haldeman, > Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey, etc., etc., ad nauseum. The > fault does not lie with the author; it lies with the readership > that continues to demand the same old crap in different colored > toilets, or at the very least, continues to buy it. A readership > that wants a sequel to every novel, a readership that wants a > novel out of every short story, a readership that has grown fat > and lazy on a diet of trash, like metropolitan raccoons. It's > science fiction's doom as a viable 20th Century art form if its > readership continues to wallow in mediocrity, merely competent > writing, and glorification of hacks. Notice that "mainstream" > authors who have written science fiction for the general reading > public have by and large maintained a higher standard of craft > than is present in current new offerings within science fictions. > "Duluth" by Gore Vidal. The "Canopus In Argus" series by Doris > Lessing. A few others here and there, not many, because it's the > kiss of death for a mainstream author to become associated with > writing science fiction. Sorry for the rather large excerpt. Crap!, I read books because I enjoy them not because they are masterworks of art. The cardinal sin for a book, any kind of book, on my reading list is for it to be boooriiiiiiing. A fantastically well crafted and written book that is boring is guaranteed a non-stop one-way trip to the circular file whereas I have very much enjoyed and will no doubt continue to enjoy some "hack" novels simply because they were fun (the first couple Xanth books then it got old, real old) or action packed or funny or ... you get the idea. Art for the sophisticate always gets short shrift in the mass market, and to my lights rightly so. You can take classic jazz (random notes), modern art (random scribbles), and "well written" sci fi (random but well structured phrases, translate boring) and stuff them for all that I would miss them. I read a great deal of science fiction and am willing to try practically any author but, I don't evaluate a book on how well they are written (someone else's subjective evaluation) but rather how well they read (a personal subjective evaluation). I don't feel any need to apologize or change my taste in literature just because of someone else's likes and dislikes, I like what I like and feel perfectly comfortable with that. David Albrecht General Electric ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 May 85 1221-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #185 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 29 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 185 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Computers in SF & The Problems of SF Today (3 msgs) & Empiricon 6 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 24 May 85 22:36:24-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #176 > (why the sudden rash of _people_underlining_book_titles_?) > One thing I have noticed recently is a rash of fairly >reputable SF writers including their computers in a novel. There >is some of this in TOD but the last Gateway story is probably a >better example. I have an image of these guys being given a >Trash-80 for their birthday and after a month or so the illness >strikes. Getting a little tired of every protaganist being a >computer whiz especially when the writer has only a superficial >background to go on. True in general -- Varley's _Press_Enter_[] and a few others come to mind instantly. But Zelazny's done it before: Jack of Shadows, (-8 in the book of the same name, _underlined_ 8-) was a professor of computer science in his lightside incarnation, good enough to print the Key That Was Lost (-8 presumably due to a glitch in a sorting algorithm 8-) without anyone realizing that he was taking up masses of computer time (?). Jack of Shadows is at least ten years old, and probably older. No Trash-80's around then. (O.K., Jack used batch.) To say nothing of (Zelazny+Saberhagan)'s _Coils_ -- and saying nothing of it is probably a good idea. The Immoral Bard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 85 15:29 EDT From: Winston B. Edmond Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II Davis Tucker, I have to assume the purpose of these essays of yours is to incite debate -- that the positions taken are intended to be controversial so those of us that are usually quiet will take the effort to write. As such, it doesn't matter whether you really believe what you wrote or if you are just challenging us. If the latter, you've succeeded, at least with me. I can agree with a number of the details, but I disagree with the intent, tone, and innuendo in your comments. You say: >But incredibly, many science fiction writers get away with cheap >puns, absolutely wretched dialogue, ridiculously constructed plots, >inconsistent character motivation, terminal cuteness (Gidget's >Disease), and worst of all the "And-Then-He-Woke-Up" ending, or >some kind of deus ex machina ending (sometimes both together). "Get away with" ?? This implies deception, doing something harmful or unethical without penalty or discovery, being sneaky. You seem to imply that writers are somehow "putting one over" on the poor, gullible readers and publishers. Perhaps you think they have no choice but to accept whatever the writer wants them to? I think readers can judge for themselves, and groups like SF-Lovers assist in evaluating books. Unless you're just asserting that you feel you were deceived, I find no merit in your "get away with". Later, you write: >The fault does not lie with the author; it lies with the readership >that continues to demand the same old crap in different colored >toilets, or at the very least, continues to buy it. If you don't like what some other reader likes, that's okay, but please don't denigrate the field or the readers simply because their taste differs. Your basic argument is the economic one known as consumer surplus: if N people want something, it's easier and cheaper for the N+1'st person to get the same thing. However, if you want something unique or not commonly available, it's harder to get, more expensive, etc. What you've basically said is that if only other readers would demand the same type of literature that you want, you think everybody would be better off. Not everyone who has a new or interesting idea or view of the world is a perfect writer. Not all entertainers can do stand up comedy well. Sure, I like well written books with good characterization, a sensible story, and a wealth of imaginative ideas written into a story crafted so well that I delight in its reading. But I'll settle for a good book, with errors, that has *something* in it that's good enough to make up for what it lacks. There's a great deal of science fiction I never read because it seemed to me to be yet-another- story. (It also leaves time for reading other things.) From your comments, perhaps you've come to the same conclusion, and will express your interests by buying only books you have reason to believe you will like. You wrote: >A readership that wants a sequel to every novel, a readership that >wants a novel out of every short story, a readership that has grown >fat and lazy on a diet of trash, like metropolitan raccoons. Gee, I've had the impression that it was more the publishers that decided that if something sold well once, the market should be saturated with more stuff superficially like it. On the other hand, isn't it a fairly common reaction, upon finding something you really enjoyed, to wish there had been more of it, or that it could happen again? It's hard to blame a publisher for trying to find some way to fulfill the reader's desires, especially if those readers are prepared to spend real money. Finally, >All that you will see when you wander through the science fiction >section of your local bookstore is new authors who are rarely more >than warmed-over Eric Frank Russell, Keith Laumer, or Gordon >Dickson. Hackdom reigns supreme. Where is a new Thomas Disch? >Another Barry Malzberg? Maybe even another Ursula LeGuin? Do you think these people just appeared in a puff of orange smoke, with their abilities so blindingly obvious that publishers would bow down and decide they were the only kind of people worth publishing? There are a lot of talented people whose work isn't appreciated and which loses money. Publishers (and writers) don't like losing money. Which is better -- to publish works that are great along with works that are not so great, or try to publish only the best? And who's to decide that the work is worth publishing? How do you propose to discover new talent, to provide the marketplace to support the time and effort it takes to do great works if you insist that a book must be great before it is available to the public? Unless the publishers suddenly develop a new restraint on what they publish, or writers decide that they won't write anything less than masterpieces or stop writing what publishers insist will make them both money, I suspect you'll see works that aren't wonderful along with those you think are. I have no objection to discovering new, better writers. I agree that there's just enough good ones around to make me wish there were more. If we can find a way, or a set of suggestions, that can be easily adopted by ordinary writers that enables them to be better writers, that's wonderful. But -- please don't tell me not to read a book with a good idea just because it isn't presented as well as it could be. And, if you truly believe that 90% rule you quoted, you should do everything in your power to increase the size of the market. The 90% portion will be larger, but so will the 10% portion. -WBE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 May 85 08:53 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: THE PROBLEMS IN SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II -- A REPLY > What do we mean when we use the word "hack" in reference to an > author? This is often a very fuzzy phrase, and everyone has a > different definition. Mine is "an author who is merely competent, > and who does not attemt to improve." Stasis is death, at least in > the creative world. Competency is a compliment to mechanics, > journalists, and airline pilots. It is a veiled insult (or a > left-handed compliment) to any creative person. To say that > someone is a "competent painter" means nothing. To be merely > competent is to never rise above a given level. In science > fiction, competency an mediocrity go hand in glove, dancing > merrily into justifiable oblivion. Wow. Nice finish to the paragraph. Leaves one with the impression that *only* in the field of science fiction will one find a large number of authors who fit your definition of hack and sell large numbers of books. When did you last look at any section of your local bookstore other than science fiction? For every Gore Vidal (one of two current mainstream authors mentioned in the original) there are *at least* ten, probably twenty, hacks. Science fiction is not, nor ever will be, the last refuge of the hack. Consider, for instance, John Jakes. He *left* science fiction for the more lucrative mainstream field. He's made quite a bit of money out there and I'm sure he would fit your definition of a hack writer. Hacks exist in every field. Many of them are quite successful. Barbara Cartland can be nothing but a hack writer, but she's a *very* successful one and I don't recall ever seeing any science fiction by her. Television isn't spared either. For every episode of Star Trek there are at least two of the Dukes of Hazzard. Your arguements just don't hold together unless you ignore 90% or mainstream fiction. Sturgeon's corolary to Murphy's Law holds for *all* fields, not just science fiction as you imply. ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I Date: 25 May 85 18:58:50 GMT Davis Tucker raises some interesting points in his well-written essay on quality and contemporary SF. > Unfortunately, this degradatation of critical faculties is > unavoidable, just by human nature, and it takes a very strong > sense of self to keep it in check. The above statement puts it > very succinctly - and is a very good example of what is so often > wrong with science fiction fandom and its rationale for giving > accolades or insults. It's precisely SF fandom's insularity that has led to the slow acceptance of SF as a 'respectable' genre by people outside the SF community. Cults of personality lead to the overemphasis of the mediocre and the neglect of the superior. Was it Arthur C. Clarke or someone else who said that 90% of EVERYTHING is garbage? It's time that the myth of SF's persecution by mainstream critics be laid to rest. The quality of writing in the average SF mag is uneven because most SF is written for a fifteen-year-old mentality by hacks who wouldn't know quality writing if it jumped up and bit them in their warp drives. Most people who care about fiction as art don't have the patience to wade through five tons of horse manure in search of a single gem (what, me opinionated? :-). > ... Alcoholism and drug abuse seem to be the congenital defects of > writers, coupled with a large streak of self-destructiveness. > Now, it's true that there are many likeable people who could fit > into this company. But the point is that someone's congeniality is > not his or her writing. It just flat out has no bearing whatsoever > on the quality of his or her prose. Neither does a person's good sense when it comes to issues outside the field of writing. Consider, for example, Ezra Pound's infatuation with fascism which in no way diminishes his stature as a 20th century poet. As an aside, I wonder if the self-destructiveness isn't a byproduct of our romanticization of the creative act. I seem to recall reading that this redefinition of the artist's role in society is our inheritance from the likes of Blake, Shelley, Coleridge et al., and that writers before Romanticism reared its ugly head tended to be ordinary Joes with a family and payments on a Chevy in the garage :-). > So I should, by the above quoted argument, attempt to reach a > deeper appreciation of Rockwell's work due to my personal fondness > for him. In other words, if I like him so much as a person, I > certainly would like his work. A cautionary note here: the work of a Norman Rockwell may be interesting from a sociological or historical perspective, hence worth studying for reasons that have little to do with its artistic merit. The writings of the worst SF hack may be worth looking at if they have influenced the evolution of the genre in some way. I've sometimes read books I've detested or listened to music that bored me because I felt there was a lesson to be learned from the experience, even if it was a negative one. You can sometimes learn a lot about quality by studying those things that lack quality. > Isaac Asimov, from everything I've heard, is a gentleman - > well-mannered, considerate, helpful to young authors, interested > in new talent. Some of his work possesses merit - his non-fiction. > We'll forget about his poetry ... An interesting phenomenon, SF poetry. Why people who are more or less competent crafters of fiction think that their skills automatically carry over into poetry is beyond me. I've NEVER seen an SF poem that was more than marginally competent or revealed an understanding of the nature of poetry beyond the high-school creative writing class level. Yet mags like Amazing persist in publishing one or more of these embarassing efforts in each issue. Even Gene Wolfe (who, I believe, should know better) stoops to writing bad poetry. There's probably a book or article in here somewhere, if anyone cares to write it. > indeed!). His fiction is not that good - yes, it shows some > marginal crafts- manship, some workable ideas, but it's not really > that good, as fiction. Ah, yes, the marginal Dr. Asimov. I dearly love The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, but his interminable lectures on stale science are getting a bit old. How many years has he been at this? If you want to see real 'marginal craftsmanship,' check out his useless book of advice on writing SF. What a rip-off. > But nothing he has written even comes close to Gene Wolfe. This > isn't mere opinion - I don't truck with the idea of absolute > relativism in art. It is probably an overstatement, but Asimov is > to Wolfe as Rockwell is to Van Gogh. Again, I think even a second-rate craftsman like Asimov is worth reading. He has had an influence on the direction SF has taken the past 30 years or so, after all. And as for Gene Wolfe, I think his Fifth Head of Cerberus is one of the great achievements in the genre. > If science fiction were not a field of literary endeavor (and who > knows? Sometimes it really does seem to be something totally > different), none of this would matter. But it is, and it is > incumbent upon readers of science fiction to remember this, and > judge accordingly, and not allow personalities to affect that > judgement. I'm afraid there's going to be a flood of irate responses to your posting, because many SF fans would disagree with you. They don't want any surprises in their fiction, and they view the reading of SF as one aspect of their fandom. I've been reading SF since the early '50s, when I used to cadge my grandmother's copies of Worlds of If (believe it or not). If it weren't for the writers who still believe SF is a field of literary endeavor, I'd quit reading it tomorrow. -- In the name of quality, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 May 85 15:25 EDT From: Ben Yalow Subject: Empiricon 6 Empiricon 6, orginally scheduled for the Fourth of July weekend (July 5-7, 1985), has been cancelled. The convention was to be held at the Sheraton LaGuardia in New York City. The announcement was made at Disclave this past weekend. For further information, contact Empiricon. Their address is Empiricon/ PO Box 682/ NY,NY 10008 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 May 85 2002-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #186 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 31 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 186 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today (3 msgs) & Criticizing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II Date: 25 May 85 20:17:22 GMT A few additional comments. By the way, Steve Brust is right on the mark; Capote (RIP) and Mailer ARE miserable hacks... > To be merely competent is to never rise above a given level. In > science fiction, competency and mediocrity go hand in glove, > dancing merrily into justifiable oblivion. Well ... I think this is probably true of fiction in general. Take a look at what passes for 'fiction' in many literary quarterlies and little magazines, for example. The difference may be that mainstream writers have an outlet for the fiction they write while they're learning their craft (i.e., the little mags), but new, old, good and bad SF writers all publish in the same small set of magazines. And if you want to see REAL mediocrity, take a look at ten or fifteen of the current top-40 mainstream bestsellers at your friendly neighborhood bookstore. Sidney Sheldon, indeed ... I think we need to keep on criticizing SF to keep the juices flowing, but we need to make sure we stay on target. I'm not sure your criticism here can't be levelled at the 90% of ALL fiction that's mediocre ... > We all have heard the lame excuse that science fiction has > different rules than mainstream fiction until it sounds like a > broken record. > But the basic fundamentals of mainstream fiction still apply - > realistic characaterization, depth of understanding, plot > development, correct use of descriptive passages, realistic > dialogue, structural integrity, everything that is important to > literature. > But incredibly, many science fiction writers get away with cheap > puns, absolutely wretched dialogue, ridiclously constructed plots, > inconsistent character motivation, terminal cuteness (Gidget's > Disease) and worst of all the "And-Then-He-Woke-Up" ending, or > some kind of deus ex machina ending (sometimes both together). I think this all goes back to the SF-as-pariah syndrome I mentioned in my reply to part I of your posting; poor, poor SF has always been picked on by the mainstream critics because they simply don't understand that SF writers are capable of producing quality fiction. This simply doesn't work anymore. In the late '60s, many mainstream critics began examining SF as serious fiction. The late Theodore Sturgeon, as I recall, was one of the first hailed as a quality writer by the non-SF critics. Since then, countless MA theses and PhD dissertations have been written on SF works. Writers like Delaney, LeGuin, Wilhelm, Wolfe, and Lem are acknowledged by mainstream critics as well as SF critics. A conspiracy against SF? Hardly. Yet some SF writers and fans seem to have decided that the trappings of mainstream literary criticism don't apply to SF; consequently, we've seen claims by members in the SF community that the only important or good fiction being produced is SF, or that only SF writers are still producing solid stories, or that the novel is dying everywhere but in the SF genre (I've actually seen all these claims in one place or another over the last 15 years or so, but I can't quote my sources, unfortunately). By isolating the genre from the rest of literature, some members of the SF community would place it in a position where the standards applied to 'ordinary' fiction no longer apply to SF. Thus, some 'purists' seem to believe that idea is everything, and that well-crafted characters and believable dialogue are unnecessary or secondary to the conceptual goals of the story. Much of this fiction reads like socialist realism, another genre where function takes precedence over form. > It's a shame, but science fiction, unlike almost any other > creative field, has almost no true masters that are recognized as > such, no people who are held up by the aficionados as examples to > young acolytes. Instead, the old hacks are deified and glorified. > Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke. What would science fiction be like > if instead, the examples for new writers were Aldiss, Ballard, and > Silverberg? > All that you will see when you wander through the science > fiction section of your local bookstore is new authors who are > rarely more than warmed-over Eric Frank Russell, Keith Laumer, or > Gordon Dickson. Hackdom reigns supreme. Where is a new Thomas > Disch? Another Barry Malzberg? Maybe even another Ursula LeGuin? I see a number of newer writers out there who seem to be heading in interesting directions. For example, Ed Bryant, Greg Bear, Ian Watson, Lucius Shepard. The deification and glorification seems to be going on at the conventions and in the fan magazines, but there are at least some of us who have followed SF closely for a number of years and who have no interest in getting involved in the fandom nonsense. A writer is his own best and severest critic; if he wants to be a GOOD writer (as opposed to a hack), he'll approach his reading of SF critically and eventually realize that Aldiss, Ballard, and Silverberg have more to teach him about writing than Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke. > A readership that wants a sequel to every novel, a readership that > wants a novel out of every short story, a readership that has > grown fat and lazy on a diet of trash, like metropolitan raccoons. A readership that demands an endless stream of mediocre trilogies and tetralogies. Let's face it, this junk SELLS and an author who has a family to feed may be sorely tempted to crank out a quick trilogy instead of a finely crafted 100 page novel or novella > Notice that "mainstream" authors who have written science fiction > for the general reading public have by and large maintained a > higher standard of craft than is present in current new offerings > within science fictions. "Duluth" by Gore Vidal. The "Canopus In > Argus" series by Doris Lessing. A few others here and there, not > many, because it's the kiss of death for a mainstream author to > become associated with writing science fiction. I'm not so sure about the 'kiss of death' theory; see my above comments about mainstream critics and SF. The interested reader will also want to check out Stanislaw Lem's works (of course), and Italo Calvino. A book I'm starting soon is the newly-published mainstream novel The Eleven-Million Mile High Dancer, but it looks like it may be a bit too stylized and trendy for my taste (I'll post a review). And there's Don DeLillo's Ratner's Star, Vladimir Nabokov's Ada, and The Waltz Invention, and so on. Of course, much of this fiction barely qualifies as SF, but SF has had a great impact on many so-called mainstream writers. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II Date: 25 May 85 20:32:58 GMT > Crap!, I read books because I enjoy them not because they are > masterworks of art. The cardinal sin for a book, any kind of > book, on my reading list is for it to be boooriiiiiiing. > Art for the sophisticate always gets short shrift in the mass > market, and to my lights rightly so. You can take classic jazz > (random notes), modern art (random scribbles), and "well written" > sci fi (random but well structured phrases, translate boring) and > stuff them for all that I would miss them. ... So, Dave, you're the canonical SF fan? There's plenty of 'lite' reading out there for people who are looking for something to shade their noses while they get a suntan; why should you resent those of us who are looking for something more? I could care less what you think of 'art for the sophisticate;' there are those of us who get the greatest enjoyment out of listening to classic jazz, looking at modern art, and reading well-written SF (oh, and by the way, the term 'sci fi' is an abomination). This interchange is addressing SF on one level; you obviously read it on another. If you don't like what we're saying, use your 'n' key. -- Hugs & kisses, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: randvax!rohn@topaz.arpa (Laurinda Rohn) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II Date: 23 May 85 01:57:41 GMT > It's a shame, but science fiction, unlike almost any other > creative field, has almost no true masters that are recognized as > such, no people who are held up by the aficionados as examples to > young acolytes. Hmm. Masters in whose judgment? Good art is a very subjective thing. Your master might be my hack. And just because I think Joyce is a master doesn't mean that I can't enjoy reading some Asimov now and then. And whether Asimov is a master in your judgment or in mine, I suspect he is someone whom many young authors try to emulate. > Instead, the old hacks are deified and glorified. Asimov, > Heinlein, and Clarke. What would science fiction be like if > instead, the examples for new writers were Aldiss, Ballard, and > Silverberg? Personally, I think it would be boring. Now this isn't to say that I don't care for the three you mentioned, but if all new fiction were to be patterned after just a few "masters", I think I'd go out of my mind (further :-) ). I happen to think variety in styles is a Good Thing. > and now this trash-heap is threatening to fall over on us. Barry > B. Longyear, Brian Daley, Christopher Stasheff, Jerry Pournelle, > Piers Anthony, Robert Asprin, Spider Robinson, Joe Haldeman, > Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey, etc., etc., ad nauseum. The > fault does not lie with the author; it lies with the readership > that continues to demand the same old crap in different colored > toilets, or at the very least, continues to buy it. So let's not > wallow in the 90 percent, let's get our heads out of the toilet > and go look for the 10 percent that's worth reading. > Possibly it's because in the eyes of the reading public, that > descending to write science fiction is exactly that - descending. > Being lowered. Jumping in the muck with all the Trekkies. Bug > Eyed Monsters. All of the hackneyed, overused, cliched constructs > that science fiction has been relying on for much too long, rather > than finding something new. I must disagree. I don't consider it a fault to enjoy reading the "same old crap." Again, good literature is in the opinion of the reader. I consider the sonnet an overused construct. Does that mean Shakespeare shouldn't have written so many? I don't think so. There's nothing wrong with finding something new. But if you've found something you like, there's also nothing wrong with sticking with it as well. > In some ways, the general reading public has a clearer view of > what science fiction is and what it isn't than those who have been > reading it all their lives. The forest for the trees. You mean the general reading public that has made Harlequin Romances some of the best selling books around??? I'm not sure I'm willing to trust their opinion of what is and isn't good science fiction.... Lauri rohn@rand-unix.ARPA ..decvax!randvax!rohn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 06:30:51 PDT From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der From: Mouse) Subject: SF and criticizing Sorry Davis (druri!dht in #175), I finally have to respond. There are a few things I take issue with in that. I think I agree with your definition of a hack, as you worded it. Trouble is, I will argue with your usage of competent. Competency, used in reference to a creative person (such as a painter or writer) could very well be a compliment---of their technique, as opposed to their imagination. Granted, both are indeed needed. > or that "Where The Wild Things Are" and the Dr. Seuss books show >more imagination and extrapolation than Star Trek. I must argue with you here. Not only because you touch a nerve when you denigrate Star Trek, but I think there's another aspect to this. Seuss and WTWTA are both *fantasy*, and children's fantasy at that (children's fantasy can get away with a lot more). More imagination, perhaps (though some of the ST episodes get pretty imaginative). Extrapolation, though, is what SF is all about, and given the restrictions (don't forget *when* it was made!), Star Trek did awfully well (I'm not talking about the movies here; you have a point there). >But it is hard to believe that Robert Heinlein *ever* kept his >overbearing personality out of the mouths of every character. >"Time Enough For Love" was a nightmare - Robert A. Heinlein living >forever, and worse, *talking* forever. Several things here. One, so what if Heinlein wants to write the way you say? Nobody's making you read his stuff. Two, I disagree. Read `The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'. Manuel O'Kelly-Davis certainly doesn't strike me as the average Heinlein Competent Man. (Personally, I liked TEFL. Not sure why.) >...science fiction....has almost no true masters that are....held >up by the aficionados as examples to young acolytes. Instead, the >old hacks are deified and glorified. You've nearly contradicted yourself. Remember, not everybody agrees with your opinion that those who are `deified and glorified' are `old hacks' instead of `true masters'---indeed, there are plenty of people who disagree. Me, for example. Well, they *were* masters when they were in their prime. >[old hacks are deified and glorified.] Asimov, Heinlein, and >Clarke. ....if instead, the examples....were Aldiss, Ballard, and >Silverberg. All three (Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke) have written good stuff (try early output in all three cases, done before they could sell on their names alone instead of selling on the story). Not that I want to slam any of the other three; indeed, I haven't read enough work I can recall to be by any of them to be able to offer an opinion. >....new authors who are rarely more than warmed-over [your favorite >past author here]. .... ....Christopher Stasheff, ...., Spider >Robinson, ...., Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McCaffrey.... All the authors I left in the above passage I happen to like (or at least, like some of their stuff). On the other hand, perhaps you're right. Surely you don't call Darkover or Pern `real' SF---which is all you claim to be talking about. They are more fantasy. Stasheff I don't know. Had someone already done a Gramarye? It's the first time I'd met such an idea. Spider Robinson I like for Callahan's [Two books: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and Time Travelers Strictly Cash]. (This is probably because of my weak spot for puns). der Mouse {ihnp4,decvax,...}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse PS. Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between "comics" and "comix"? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 May 85 2046-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #187 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 31 May 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 187 Today's Topics: Art - Trumps of Doom Cover Art, Books - Wyndham (3 msgs) & Zelazny & Upcoming Releases (2 msgs), Films - Lensman (2 msgs) & 2001/2010 (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 29 May 85 12:12:36-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Trumps of Doom Cover Well, the cover was so BAD, I couldn't imagine Whelan really caring that much. Have you noticed that Zelazny often gets stuck with really bad covers? The only ones I liked were those AVON editions, and those didn't have much art to them, just the little ovals in the middles of the black fields. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 1985 10:23:41-EDT From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: "Triffids" paperback.... A little question: While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might it be the first PB edition of that novel? This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the Triffids," but with the original title in small print in parentheses on the cover. The cover illo itself was pretty pulpy, with a triffid menacing a frightened woman whose shredded blouse only slightly concealed her torso. It was published by Popular Library in March, 1952. Other copyrights found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 by Crowell-Collier Publishing Co. Also on the copyright page was the note, "Originally published under the title 'The Day of the Triffids.'" Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his genius. Regards (& advance thanks), Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Old Triffids paperback.... From: Alastair Milne Date: 30 May 85 01:07:43 PDT (Thu) >A little question: > >While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local >library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of >Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might >it be the first PB edition of that novel? > >This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the >Triffids," but with the original title in small print in >parentheses on the cover. The cover illo itself was pretty pulpy, >with a triffid menacing a frightened woman whose shredded blouse >only slightly concealed her torso. >Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his >genius. > Jeff Rogers I can't rival Jerry Boyajian, and wouldn't even try, but I do know this much: "Day of the Triffids" came out a long time ago (decades) in paperback, from Penguin books, which, for copyright reasons that I don't fully understand, are not available in the US -- at least, that's what the note on the back cover always says, following the list of suggested prices for the book in the various dominions. Penguin, among others, published most or all of Wyndham's work. About the cover illustration you describe: how nauseating. I assure you there was nothing like that on the Penguin release. And the book was given its right name (though there's nothing new in Wyndham's titles' being revised en route over the Atlantic). The story is very good, and has nothing to do with frightened, barely dressed women. See other articles on this list for various observations about cover art. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa (Joe Kalash) Subject: Re: Old Triffids paperback.... Date: 30 May 85 05:58:14 GMT > While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local > library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of > Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might > it be the first PB edition of that novel? > > This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the > Triffids," > > It was published by Popular Library in March, 1952. Other > copyrights found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 by > Crowell-Collier Publishing Co. Gad, that's precious little to go on. As far as my info tells me, "Revolt of the Triffids" is the title of the first american paper back of "Triffids", however that doesn't guarantee you anything. The original price on the book should have been '.25', if so you have the first printing of that title. I do not know if there was a british printing that might have predated it. Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 85 16:26:30 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Nitpicking again...Jack of Shadows I have recently (coincidentally) reread Jack of Shadows, and I must correct a mistake that someone recently made when writing about it. Unfortunately, I wasn't brilliant enough to write down the name of the person who made the mistake, so I can't address this properly. When Jack went Dayside, he was *not* a Professor of Computer Science. He was a professor of *Anthropology* and other similar social sciences. He gave lectures on Darkside culture and customs, and was roundly believed to be making most of it up from whole cloth. He was using the computer ostensibly to aid his research. No one noticed how much time he used cause most of it was originally "signed up for" by other people, and when they cancelled out he would bounce right in and grab the time. It took his boss something on the order of 3-5 years to figure out that Jack might be a darksider, and which one he could be. have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: Wed 29 May 85 18:44:25-PDT From: randall neff Subject: ABA report I This is the first report on the American Booksellers Convention that was held in San Francisco on Memorial Day weekend. New American Library/ Signet/ DAW The Backman Books by Stephen King October, trade paperback The four previous Richard Bachman novels Angel with the Sword by C. J. Cherryh the first DAW hardcover. September. Cherryh was at the ABA autographing bound galleys of the book, will review later after I read it. Tailchaser's Song by Tad Williams November "a magical picaresque story sure to appeal to devotees of quality fantasy as well as to the millions of cat lovers nationwide" July Null-A Three A. E. van Vogt The Song of Homana (Cheysuli book 2) Jennifer Roberson I.A. presents Great SF: 13 ( 1951) The Temple of Truth E. C. Tubb August Changer's Moon Jo Clyton Kelly Country A. Bertram Chandler The Forest of Peldain Barington J. Bayley September Warrior Woman Marion Zimmer Bradley Flamesong M. A. R. Barker Ibis Linda Steele The Dragon of Mishbil B. W. Clough Del Rey David Eddings is working on a new fantasy saga, it will be a Del Rey hardcover about a year from now. With a Tangled Skein Piers Anthony book 3 of Incarnations of Immortality October Starquake Robert L. Forward sequel to Dragon's Egg October The Atlas of the Land Karen Wynn Fonstad map of Thomas Covenant November The King's Justice Katherine Kurtz vol II of King Kelson November THe Mars One Crew Manual Kerry Mark Joels plans of mars voyage November Killashandra Anne McCaffrey sequel to Crystal Singer December The Gnome King of Oz Ruth Plumly Thompson October The Giant Horse of Oz Jack Pumpkinhead of Oz July Vengeance of the Dancing Gods Jack Chalker The Black Ship Christopher Rowley The Remaking of Sigmund Freud Barry N. Malzberg August The Bishop's Heir Katherine Kurtz Procyon's Promise Michael McCollum Red Flame Burning Ward Hawkins September Sentenced to Prism Alan Dean Foster The Misenchanted Sword Lawrence Watt-Evans The Gallatin Divergence L. Neil Smith Doubleday Robots and Empire Isaac Asimov September Bridge The Invaders Plan book one of ten of Mission Earth by L. Ron Hubbard October 100,000 first hardcover printing $1,000,000 promotion and advertising budget Popular Library ( Warner ) July Masters of Glass M. Coleman Easton Doomstar Richard S. Meyers August Darkwar Trilogy 1: Doomstalker Glen Cook Meanwhile Max Handley September Warrior Witch of Hel Asa Drake The Dushau Trilogy 2: Farfetch Jacqueline Lichtenberg Bantam The Dream Years Lisa Goldstein September The Proteus Operation James P. Hogan October The Postman David Brin November (Brin autographed bound gallleys of the book) The bad news is that Brin's Uplift War is delayed until spring 86. Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA ------------------------------ Date: Thu 30 May 85 17:24:49-PDT From: Randall B. Neff Subject: ABA report II St. Martin's Press also distributes Bluejay and Tor Hardcovers. Don't believe the dates for Bluejay books. August The Golden Horn vol II Judith Tarr Bluejay The Memory of Whiteness Kim Stanley Robinson Tor September Steppe Piers Anthony Tor Wonder's Child Jack Williamson Bluejay Freedom Beach James Patrick Kelly/ John Kessel Bluejay The Space Merchants Frederik Pohl/ C. M. Kornbluth Bluejay October Spinneret Timothy Zahn Bluejay Human Error Paul Preuss Tor Privateers Ben Bova Tor The Widow's Son Robert Anton Wilson (Historical Illuminatus II) Bluejay The Legion of Time Jack Williamson Bluejay November Song of Kali Dan Simmons Bluejay Free Live Free Gene Wolfe Tor The City of the Chasch Jack Vance Bluejay December Children of the Light Susan Weston St. Martins Nightflyers George R. R. Martin Bluejay Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 10:11 PDT From: Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Animation Fans LENSMAN played at BayCon in San Francisco this last weekend. I was impressed with the animation, which combined standard techniques with computer imaging. However, the version I saw was in Japanese with no subtitles. It does resemble the stories to some degree, being somewhat taken from the third book, "Galactic Patrol". There are, however, some bizarre twists. For instance, Kimball Kinnison gets his lens from a dying lensman. The Head Honcho Boskonian looks suspiciously like a sort of giant, twisted samurai warrior. These things aside, though, I was able to enjoy the film even without understanding the words. I recommend seeing it even if you can't find the subtitled version. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Wed 29 May 85 12:10:17-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: RENSUMON (LENSMAN) It was showed at BAYCON. I thought that it took (ripped off?) more from TRON than anything else. I mean Kimball was dressed in what looked like a TRON program uniform (either that or Rollerball gear) and there were many many scenes which reminded me of the light-cycle chase (one in particular used computer animation and was almost identical except that the maze was three dimensional). I don't understand why they couldn't follow the plot. It was better than the one they decided on, at any rate. -Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 14:42:51 pdt From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley Subject: 2001 intermission > MGM is currently distributing ``2001'' WITH AN INTERMISSION built > into it! This intermission is of course rather jarring to the > flow of the movie. 2001 was originaly released with an intermission built right in. It comes just after Bowman and what's his name (sorry, its been awhile) have gone into the pod so HAL can't hear them. In fact, if you watch carefully as HAL is reading their lips, you will note that they are actually saying 'intermission' back and forth to each other, at which time intermission occurs. Joe Kalash ucbvax!unisoft!kalash kalash@berkeley (<- will get forwarded) ------------------------------ From: ism70!steven@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: 2001'' -- a warning Date: 29 May 85 12:56:00 GMT 2001: A Space Odyssey has always been shown in theatres with an intermission. The intermission occurs after Bowman and Poole sit in the pod and discuss shutting down HAL. ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: 2010 -- again. . . Date: 30 May 85 04:14:02 GMT showard@udenva.UUCP (showard) writes: >> 1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the >>movie. >That's irrelevant. It was in the movie; it was stupid; therefore >the movie contains a stupid plot device. Only stupid if you don't know the whole story. Read the book. It was obvious from the time we discovered (in the book; it was mostly dropped from the movie) that the Europan life forms wanted/needed more light and warmth, and were very near the aliens' monolith. >> 2) Yes, ending was ...not up to the rest, but compare with the >> ending of the immortal 2001, it was probably better - unless you >> think that a totally irrelevany, unintelligible ending is a good >> thing just so they leave the theater thinking. > > 2001 ended the way it should have--ambiguous, like the rest of the >film. 2010, on the other hand, gave me the impression of: well, >we've got all this stuff left over from the first film to clear up, >and we've got all this US- USSR conflict, and we've shot 89 >minutes--let's whip up a happy ending. (1) The ending of 2001 is something that would HAVE to be conveyed in print, at least until they get the ``Brainstorm'' machines going :-). I don't know of any way to really portray what was going on on the screen. (2) If you think the ``Peace'' think was merely hacked in to make a happy ending by some damfool producer, I suggest you re-read CHILDHOOD'S END and many of Clarke's shorter works. I can assure you that it was done with his full knowledge and consent. Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ From: digi-g!brian@topaz.arpa (Merlyn Leroy) Subject: 2010 movie vs. book (spoiler) Date: 29 May 85 20:48:53 GMT >> 1) Jupiter ==> star ending was also in the book, don't blame the >> movie. > That's irrelevant. It was in the movie; it was stupid; >therefore the movie contains a stupid plot device. No, Peter "the hack" Hyams loused up the book. The plot of the book "2010" concerned the aliens (played by Ob O'Lysk) encouraging the life on Europa to grow (in much the same way as they helped the apes in "2001"). Hyams took out the Chinese (thus ripping out a VERY IMPORTANT part of the plot) and put in a "sledgehammer-on-the-head" political subplot, because, as I've said, he's a hack. Turning Jupiter into a star WAS NOT DONE FOR HUMANS AT ALL, but strictly for the Europans (Europeans?). Read the book. Forget the movie. Shoot Hyams before he does more damage. Merlyn Leroy ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: 2001'' -- a warning Date: 31 May 85 14:43:43 GMT Strange. I saw 2001 perhaps 10 times and i don't remember any intermission. "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 May 85 2109-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #188 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 1 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 188 Today's Topics: Books - Baldwin & Dick & Hogan & Wyndahm, Films - Star Trek (2 msgs) & Rocky Horror (2 msgs) & James Bond & The Terminator, Television - Dr. Who Miscellaneous - Space Opera (2 msgs) & Criticizing & 3D sound ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 May 85 11:19:35 PDT (Wednesday) From: Hallgren.pa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #177 Space Opera Defined: The Helmsman by Bil Baldwin. Mini-Review: Though it was previously mentioned in SFLovers, I think this book deserves a plug for being a perfect example of Space Opera; lots of action, and enough of the rest of what makes sf sf. I found it very enjoyable. So will readers of C. S. Foresters' Hornblower books, and E. E. Smiths work. But to say the least, the author has a long way to go to rank anywhere near those two. I guess I like it because it creates a universe that appeals very much to me: an Empire against the Nazis. Cover art actually does represent a scene, but misses by a mile. Ignore it and buy the book. I want to read more of this about this guy. The author may improve with some encouragement, as Donaldson did. Clark H. ------------------------------ From: bunny!ehn0@topaz.arpa (Eric Nyberg) Subject: Philip K. Dick Mailing List Date: 30 May 85 12:18:57 GMT As a result of a bit of enthusiasm following my original posting some weeks back, I am acting as moderator for a new mailing list concerned with the works etc. of Philip K. Dick. The list will be a forum for discussions of Dick's works and their political/philosophical/religious/literary significance. I would also like to hear from people building PKD collections, in order to locate and trade books. I also plan to summarize any happenings within the PKD Society, of which I am a member. The society is a great source of info on new publications, anecdotes, photos, etc. I encourage people to send want lists, opinions on novels, reviews of new publications, etc. If you want to be on this mailing list, send me an address that can be safely reached from CSNET. Eric Nyberg ehn0@gte-labs Eric H. Nyberg, 3rd. GTE Laboratories, Dept. 317 harvard!bunny!ehn0 40 Sylvan Rd., Waltham, MA 02254 (617)466-2518 ------------------------------ From: panda!plw@topaz.arpa (Pete Williamson) Subject: Re: More on Hogan and SF in general ... Date: 29 May 85 21:14:49 GMT >Creating a theory based on genuine science, which is both exciting >and plausible, is a very demanding task. Hogan is the only writer I >know who consistently achieves this in every book of his that I've >read (which is all except the Giants' Trilogy). I have said this before but I'll be happy to repeat it: In my opinion, James P. Hogan is one of the very best SF authors that I've ever read. Principally, I think, because of his genuine knowledge of computers, science, and technologies. Plus he spins a marvelous yarn at the same time. Can't wait for his next. Pete Williamson ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 85 03:48 EDT (Fri) From: _Bob To: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Old Triffids paperback.... >From: jcr at Mitre-Bedford >Other copyrights found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 >by Crowell-Collier Publishing Co. Now *that* is a surprise. I was certain that the first publication anywhere was in The Saturday Evening Post. Must have been in Collier's (unless C-C owned the Post at the time, or somehow acquired the copyright). >Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his >genius. How about it Jerry? Can you help with first serial publication too? _B ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 29 May 1985 21:26-EDT From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Star Trek III/IV I have been recently been watching my laser disk version of STIII and besides noticing the usual already mentioned stuff, I have noticed something that would make an interesting input for STIV. As we all know, Saavik obliged a quickly maturing Spock on Genesis in the ways of pon farr. No big deal in itself, but I did notice that toward the end of the film after Spock is back in his own body, he goes over to the crew members to look at each one of them. The first one he comes to is Saavik. She quickly turns her head down in shame?...or does she know something that no one else knows? She is the only one in the party that does not maintain eye contact and doesn't look happy that Spock is back. Could the name of STIV be "The Search for Spock's Son"!? Wes Miller (wesm@mitre-bedford) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 85 17:01 PDT From: Piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Star trek III Some of these questions were answered with the novelization of STIII. In particular, I believe the question of how they got the Klingon fighter to Vulcan was by talking to Starfleet about it, and mentioning that they were in a captured Klingon vessel while transmitting up-to-date StarFleet recognition codes. Even so, supposedly, StarFleet shadowed them almost the entire way. Saavik, who was under no suspicion at this time, did all the talking. Perhaps Saavik assumed, as Sarek did, that Kirk obviously already knew about Spock's memories. Sarek appeared to believe that Spock would have given his memories to Kirk rather than McCoy. If Sarek assumed this, why not Saavik as well? Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 85 00:21:00 EST From: David A. Adler Subject: Script for Rocky Horror Cc: wolters@UDEL-DEWEY.ARPA There appears to be a script to Rocky Horror online here at MIT-MC. The file is: MC:HUMOR;ROCKY HORROR. I am not sure how accurate it is, but it appears to be the complete text. It contains a list of all the necessary props that you need to be a true participant as well as the lines for audience participation (for those of you who have been looking for that aspect of the show). The file can be transfered using FTP. You might not have to login, but if you do I am sure it is with the usual "anonymous" user name. DAdler (DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 30 May 1985 05:08:57-PDT From: lionel%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: Rocky Horror script I recall seeing a printed book containing not only all the dialogue from RHPS but what you were supposed to shout/do and when. It included pictures from the film and was in the section of the bookstore containing books on movies. This was several years ago, so I would doubt it's still in print. I agree that this spoils the fun, but probably some "virgins" think it's necessary to have a head start. Though I've only seen RHPS once, and that was like six years ago, I still remember it fondly. Sadly, I read that the Boston theatre that had been showing it (Exeter St. Theatre) stopped last year - perhaps I am mistaken? Steve Lionel ------------------------------ From: decuac!avolio@topaz.arpa (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: Fleming's/Broccoli's/Gardner's 007 Date: 30 May 85 16:26:22 GMT Has anyone heard whether Broccoli (or anyone else for that matter) is interested in filming the John Gardner "Bond" novels? (*License Renewed*, *For Special Services*, *Icebreaker*, and *Role of Honor* -- Berkley Books.) A couple of these were pretty good. (I didn't like *Icebreaker* very much. LR and FSS were pretty good.) Fred Avolio {decvax,seismo}!decuac!avolio 301/731-4100 x4227 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 May 85 17:00 PDT From: Michael Wahrman Subject: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison In today's (May 30) Hollywood Reporter, there is a full page ad that reads: Exhibit "A" Press Release Hemdale Film Corporation and HARLAN ELLISON are pleased to announce that they have resolved their dispute regarding the motion picture The Terminator and Hemdale Film Corporation acknowledges the works of HARLAN ELLISON. [In the ad, "Harlan Ellison" is in bold face] [then at the bottom, in small type] With special thanks to Destroyer Lawyer, Henry W. Holmes, Jr. Does anyone know what this is about. Reply to me, as I'm not on sf-lovers. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 07:44 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Dr. Who Lives From the Sunday, 26 May Los Angeles Times: "Dr. Who," the long-running science fiction series, has been rescued from extinction. The BBC canceled the series in February in an economy move, but an outcry from fans as far afield as Australia has forced the BBC to revive the show, albeit with an entirely new cast -- including a replacement for Colin Baker, the sixth actor to portray the time- traveling doctor. Production resumes in January, so American addicts won't be affected by the pause, said an official of Lionheart Television, which syndicates the show to 147 markets in America (it airs locally each Saturday at 1 p.m. on KCET Channel 28). There are 470 half-hours in U.S. circulation, with 20 coming that have already aired in the U.K. ------------------------------ Subject: Thanks for defining "space opera" Date: 28 May 85 23:27:04 PDT (Tue) From: Alastair Milne Thanks to all who volunteered definitions of the term "space opera". To judge by the flow I've already seen, there are probably yet more on their way. A couple of replies made reference to traditional ("classical", if you like) opera. As far as story quality goes, the association is usually valid. Operas were mostly designed as vehicles for theatre and music. Very few have stories that require more than a few paragraphs to tell, or have much depth or dramatic sense. Characterisations are usually distorted (since the opera shows at most the character's reaction to the present situation, ignoring what s/he's like most of the time) or virtually absent. Also, the poetry which the opera sets to music is often execrable, and would never stand on its own. None of which was particularly relevant in the heyday of grand opera (and, I suspect, is not terribly relevant to space opera): the work tended to be a vehicle for the composer's finest tunes, and for the listening public's favourite singers to show off. In fact, when the form first began to take the shape opera has today (say late 1600's to early 1700's), the stories were frequently taken from classical mythology (eg. Monteverdi's "Orfeo"), and were well known to audiences, which left them free of the onerous business of following dramatic development, letting them admire their favourite singers instead (or do other things altogether, with the performance simply a pleasant background whose progress they might check from time to time). This, of course, applies mostly to the run-of-the-mill opera. The works of giants like Mozart, Verdi, and Wagner are of a far greater set. Wagner in particular developed true drama, with some (gasp) logic; and he didn't believe in stopping the action for 15 minutes so the hero could wail about how dreadful everything was (or alternately, whom he was in love with this time). Incredible works, and some of the greatest music ever written. From the replies I've seen, I suspect space opera is not so far removed from all this. Thanks again for all the replies, Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 29 May 85 16:31:06 GMT It seems to me that there are at least two schools of thought on the subject of "space opera." One school, the vocal majority, equates space opera with "horse opera" and goes on to describe a hackneyed, western shoot-em-up plot with lots of other negative, put-downish connotations. On the other hand, I have always thought of the space opera as characterizing that branch of SF where there is considerable action on a relatively large canvas. To me some of the most rewarding and enjoyable stories would bear the name space opera rather proudly. For example, Pattern for Conquest, by George O. Smith, is certainly a classic in the genre. Probably all of the stories of the immortal E.E.Smith, PhD. The Foundation Series by Asimov. Star Wars Trilogy Some that would not qualify as space operas in my book: 2001 - action small scale and localized except for one sequence. Most of the works of A.E. Van Voght. Borderline examples: Ringworld and Ringworld Engineers What do you think? "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: criticizing Date: 23 May 85 18:15:05 GMT callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >For those that criticize and tack on "I can do better than that" or >"I can write better than that", I haven't yet seen someone with a >BIG mouth actually sit down and do something with all those >*wonderful* ideas they think they have. > >How about it? When are we going to hear something from you other >than criticism? When are you going to do something? Why not change >the story and let us hear *your* ideas? RIGHT ON!! I've been trying to do better for four years steadily, and I'm no threat to Heinlein yet (or even published yet, dammitall). "... competent writer ... is an insult" indeed. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 1985 18:40 PST From: Greg Goodknight Subject: 3-D sound From AXLER%Upenn: >...[ZBS Studios] latest project: a series of audiophile-quality >real-time cassette recordings of various stories, using a binaural >system that provides near-perfect 3-d sound when played back >through headphones (no, it won't work on speakers, alas, due to >some psychological phenomena that I don't really comprehend). I think it is much more a physical/physiological phenomena than psychological. A couple of years ago a VP at Mattel Electronics handed me a cassette tape produced by an Italian firm demonstrating their "Holophonic System" capabilities ( the aural equivalent of holographic, no doubt). There was no technical description of their equipment, but the photograph on the cassette liner showed a model of a human head ( sans nose or ears ) swathed in some fabric. I suspect this is what ZBS Studios is using. We apparently sense sound directionality by some very impressive mental signal processing. A sound made in front, off to the right, will hit the right ear first, then phase shifted and attenuated and hits the left ear. Sound is also propagated at differing velocities and attenuations in the hard and soft tissue. This is all heard, and we (almost) instantaneously know where it came from. I think the "Holophonic System" is a fairly accurate sonic model of the human head, with small microphones placed where the eardrums should be, a hard interior and soft exterior. The demo tape is a real gas. The effects on the tape include: A carbonated beverage poured INSIDE your head (listening to this after drinking a bottle of Old Tennis Shoes is the earthly equivalent to the Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster); A woman approaches from one side saying (in Italian) "I'm getting closer" until she is breathing in your ear (it is so realistic that you can feel her breath on your neck {definitely a psychological effect}), moves to your other ear and starts to say "I'm moving away" as she does so. A haircut at an Italian barber shop, with a blow dry (the best effects of all). Incidentally, the effect does degrade as the speakers (I used a set of speakers that plug into a walkman) move away from your ears (4 inches was about the max.) The sound that hits one ear has to be much greater than the sound traveling from the other ear's speaker or the phase info gets destroyed. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 May 85 2129-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #189 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 1 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 189 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Silverberg & Cover Blurbs & Footfall & Some Reviews, Films - Terminator (3 msgs) & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 May 85 13:35:34 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Univac from Robert Neinast: > However, you are correct in that the AC at the end of Univac DOES > stand for Analog Computer. No. It stands for Automatic Computer. Univacs were digital computers, not analog. --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax] ------------------------------ From: utastro!fritz@topaz.arpa (Fritz Benedict) Subject: "Gilgamesh the King" by R. Silverberg (**mild SPOILER) Date: 27 May 85 15:59:18 GMT Micro review: "Gilgamesh the King" by Robert Silverberg - Interesting book about strokes, epilepsy, tree diseases and aging, told from the viewpoint of a larger and smarter than average male inhabitant of the Fertile Crescent, circa 3000 BC. Quite erroneously marked SCF in my local library, it is a straightforward retelling of the "Epic of Gilgamesh", one of the oldest stories around. If you like SilverBob, you'll like this book. Fritz Benedict (512)471-4461x448 uucp: {...noao,decvax,ut-sally}!utastro!fritz arpa: fritz@ut-ngp snail: Astronomy, U of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 11:46 MST From: Mills@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: back cover blurbs I am also annoyed at just how much of a story a cover blurb aften gives away. My solution is to take advantage of my unperfect memory by buying the book, but not reading it until I have forgotten what it is about. This also helps to maintain a supply and avoid running out of entertainment reading. John Mills ------------------------------ Date: 29 May 85 13:47 PDT From: Tom Perrine Subject: Footfall I saw an ad for "Footfall" by Pournell and Niven in this months Analog. I haven't seen it in any bookstore yet, and they say "it will be here next month." Has anyone seen it yet? Please reply directly to me. Thx. Tom Perrine tom@logicon.ARPA Perrine@mit-multics.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu 30 May 85 02:20:56-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: The Stochastic Man "The Stochastic Man" is by Robert Silverberg, copyright 1975. It deals with the idea of second sight - reliable foreknowledge. I recommend it, although not as highly as: "Space Opera", by Jack Vance (Copyright 1965, DAW printing 1979). Wherein a patron of the arts mounts an operatic expedition to the stars ... an expedition that does not run smoothly at all ... no, not at all ... Don Lindsay Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa ------------------------------ From: cvl!hsu@topaz.arpa (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: speaking of terminator... Date: 31 May 85 04:51:27 GMT > From: > ...did anyone notice that the 'listings' as seen thru the > terminator's eyes were snippets of apple's old dos 3.3? i wonder > if this constitutes copyright infringement? > joe holt Egads. The guy in the army jacket IS on the net. Freeze frames of course reveal the code to be some sort of set-up routine on the VTOC, but I suspected it was probably somebody else's DOS routines. And the much-touted COBOL only appeared in one sequence, am I right? -dave ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: speaking of terminator... Date: 30 May 85 17:28:14 GMT Did you also notice the code in COBOL and BASIC. I found the idea extremely funny that a super sophisticated robot would be using those languages. Did anyone happen to notice any other languages they were using? Actually I thought that the Terminator was a pretty good sf movie. The premise struck me as being similar to one Fred Saberhagen used in one of his Beserker stories 'Brother Assassin'. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 03:42:01-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: TERMINATOR novelizations > From: daemon!bobp@topaz.arpa (Robert N Perry) > Having seen the movie about 4 times I'd like to know if anyone can > tell me if there exists a book with the same story line. Title > and author, please. Thanks. Not yet. From LOCUS, May 1985: "In a battle of the movie novelizations, publishers are finally getting around to doing tie-in books for sf hit THE TERMINATOR. W.H. Allen has its own version, which Lyle Stuart had intended to import for the U.S., but U.S. rights have now gone to Bantam which plans its own version plus a sequel." (p. 5) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz.arpa (ZNAC343) Subject: Re: STAR TREK IV Date: 25 May 85 00:19:22 GMT It seems that the plot to Star Trek IV: The Search For Enterprise is as follows: (This information is from a RELIABLE source) The USS Enterprise having been regenerated in the atmosphere of the Genesis planet,and feeling very well after the whole experience,heads for the planet Vulcan.The Enterprise is being controlled by a mysterious Energy force of a type never encountered before. The crew,all having been on the Genesis planet,lose all of their wrinkles and feel young and beautiful again,and ready to take on another five year voyage.Captain Kirk doesn't lose all of his wrinkles (due to there being too many of them.),but is cleared of all charges and declared a hero. The crew all beam up to the Enterprise,exchange a few cliches,and head towards a black hole,that just happens to be lying around near by in space) at warp factor 10.Due to the immense gravity of the black hole they go back in time to just before the Enterprise buys it over Genesis.Because there are now two Enterprises,the Klingon Bird Of Prey is blown out of existence. Kirk's son David does not die,so Kirk misses his chance to swear and act emotional. There are now two Enterprises left and two crews,so both crews enter the transporter at the same time and are joined together as one.Then they all return to Earth with two Enterprises,Star Fleet forgives them all (one reason being that they now have two Enterprises to sell for scrap instead of one), and Kirk is declared a Hero (again). (The crew went on to make guest appearances in the new series of T.J.Hooker). ------------------------------ From: unc!wfi@topaz.arpa (William F. Ingogly) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I Date: 27 May 85 16:56:22 GMT In his reply to Davis Tucker's posting, Steve Brust writes: > self-indulgent was invented to describe him. And Mailer doesn't > even have Capote's occasional gift for turn of phrase. I read SF > because most (not all) of the best writers are working there. While I agree with much of what you have to say in your response, Steve, this particular comment is absolute nonsense. Without even trying hard I've come up with a list of more-or-less active mainstream fiction writers who at their worst are at least as good as the best SF has to offer, and are CERTAINLY better than certain poseurs who are sometimes cited as paragons of writerly virtue in this group. How many of the following authors have you read, for example; Jorge Amado, John Barth, Donald Barthelme, Saul Bellow, Thomas Berger, T. Coraghessan Boyle, Italo Calvino, Robert Coover, Don DeLillo, Joan Didion, Jose Donoso, Stanley Elkins, Carlos Fuentes, William Gass, Gunter Grass, Graham Greene, John Hawkes, Carol Hill, Russell Hoban, William Kennedy, Milan Kundera, Doris Lessing, Mario Vargas Llosa, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, James Alan McPherson, V. S. Naipul (sp?), Walker Percy, Thomas Pynchon, Ishmael Reed, Philip Roth, Ntozake Shange, Isaac Bashevis Singer, Peter Taylor, Paul Theroux, John Updike, Gore Vidal, Peter De Vries, or Alice Walker to mention a few voices in mainstream fiction that are hard to ignore (sorry if I've skipped anyone's favorites or overemphasized someone whose faults I'm blind to)? In what way are the best writers in SF more numerous or better writers than these mainstream people? We're talking superior craftsmanship here, things like real dialogue by real people, little things I find infrequently in much SF. People in this newsgroup have cited Harlan Ellison and Roger Zelazny, for example, as examples of superior craftsmen of fiction. Harlan Ellison covers a lack of talent by projecting a hip, wisecracking persona that he apparently thinks will delude the unsophisticated into thinking he has something important to say. And Roger Zelazny (or is it Zelazney?) is even more of a fraud. His 'masterpieces' are poorly told bad jokes that would be mildly amusing if they were five or ten pages long, but Zelazny, like the crashing bore at the cocktail party insists on overstaying his welcome by expanding these bad jokes into full-length novels. The dialogue, characterization, and narrative in Lord of Light and Creatures of Light and Darkness are amateurish; consider the clumsy and stilted passages where Mahasamatman (sp? I don't own the book any longer and haven't read it for some years) 'heroically' names himself for us mortals' benefit: "...Some call me Sam, and most call me ham, but you can call me Jim, or you can call me Slim..." Is this believable or well-done? These books are Bad with a capital B because Zelazny doesn't really believe in these characters. I challenge the best of you out there to care about a character and bring him or her to life for your readers when you yourself have no faith in your own characters or any real interest in them other than as devices to carry the plot along! Why do Harlan Ellison, Roger Zelazny, and so many other SF authors write such bad fiction? There was a novel of socialist realism that experienced a certain popularity in England toward the end (as I recall) of the 19th century. It's called The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists, and it's about the trials and tribulations of a group of house painters who are abused by their employers. This is bad writing for the same reasons that much of SF is bad writing: unbelievable dialogue, cardboard characters, a linear and predictable plot. The reason? The author cared more about getting a message about the oppression of the working class across than he cared about his characters, and it shows. They're romanticized images of what he'd LIKE workingmen to be rather than living, breathing believable workingmen. The same thing's true of other 'message' fiction like Uncle Tom's Cabin and (sadly) much of SF. Fiction that stresses function at the expense of form is constantly in danger of degenerating into bathos and melodrama. Those of you who doubt this assessment of Steve's claims for the SF genre's containing the best contemporary writers should try the following experiment. Buy or borrow a copy of V. S. Naipul's A Bend In The River (your local library will have a copy) and a copy of Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light (I use Lord of Light because it's been cited in this group as an example of excellent writing). I think most of you will agree that accurate dialogue and realistic characterization (hence, believable characters) are two characteristics that distinguish well-written fiction from poorly-written fiction (yes, there are other characteristics as well). You're going to examine each author's text and evaluate his treatment of dialogue and characterization. First, read each of the books to get a feel for the narrative. Next, go through each novel and write down ten or fifteen examples of dialogue from each. Compare the dialogue from each novel side by side; read it silently at first, then out loud (or better still, have someone else read it to you). Assign each sample of dialogue a numeric or letter grade based on its believability; dialogue that sounds like the character in question would really have uttered it and that tells you something about the character or his relationship to other characters would get a good score. Dialogue that is stilted and unrealistic, that exists to further the plot or the 'message' the author is trying to get across would get a bad score. Try to be as objective as possible when you're doing this. Look at the results; which book has consistently higher scores? Finally, write down everything you know about the protagonists in each novel. Which protagonist feels more lifelike, is more believable? Go back through each novel and look for passages that tell you something about the character. Compare these passages side by side. Is the information presented in a manner that makes complete sense in terms of the plot? Do you see why the author is presenting the information at this point in the narrative, or does it seem artificially grafted on top of the plot for extraneous motives? Do you sense the presence of the author in what he's written, or see the scaffolding that should be hidden from the reader (Note: some authors have made a living out of playing these kind of games with their readers' heads. Vladimir Nabokov is the foremost example. Whether this is a good or bad strategy, it takes a conscious effort and much skill to pull it off. I'm talking here about a lack of skill that lets such scaffolding show unwittingly). Which book in your final analysis seems to come out ahead in terms of the author's skill and control over his material, and the realistic presentation of the characters and events? I'm willing to bet you'll vote for the Naipul novel. The second and final stage in our experiment is more painful, because it requires a certain investment in time and effort in reading non-SF fiction that many of you may be reluctant to make. Take five to ten novels by authors from the list I've given you, and five to ten novels that you feel are the best SF has to offer. Repeat the comparative process I've described with all of them. Rank all novels without regard to genre in order of your assessment of the author's skill in presenting dialogue and characterization. Again, try to be as objective as possible. If two novels are too close to call, write their names side by side. If Steve Brust's claim that most of the best contemporary writers of fiction are working in the SF genre is correct, then most of the entries in the top half of the list will be novels from the SF genre. Are they? If they are, I apologize for my poor judgement and I'll gladly eat my hat (but at least I've gotten a few of you to read some fiction you might have otherwise passed by!). I firmly believe, however, that most perceptive people who diligently try this experiment will find that most writers on my list can create believable characters and dialogue at least as skillfully as the best and the brightest SF has to offer, and that some of them clearly outclass even the best SF writers. I encourage you to extend this experiment to consider other qualities of fiction like narrative and imagery. Lift your heads out of the SF ghetto, people; there are a LOT of excellent craftsmen outside the SF genre writing first-rate fiction. You may not know about them or care to read what they've written; fine. Just don't make ridiculous claims about the scarcity of good writers outside the narrow confines of SF unless you know what you're talking about and you've read widely outside the genre. And if you're going to make grandiose claims, at least provide some supporting evidence or you're going to unknowingly support the arguments of those who claim that SF is second-class literature. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 May 85 2155-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #190 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 2 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 190 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous -The Problems of SF Today (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART III Date: 28 May 85 14:53:55 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY PART III: Self-Censorship And The Science Fiction Establishment by Davis Tucker I recently had the weird pleasure of reading a book by K. W. Jeter, "Dr. Adder". Not to make any assumptions, but I doubt you've heard of him. This book is deeply disturbing, dealing in a morass of human degradation, genital mutilation, castration fears, religion, hopelessness, sexual attraction for amputees, insanity, paranoia, and many other horrible things that humanity has buried in its collective subconscious. It's also very apparent that this is a very good science fiction novel. It has depth and breadth of characterization, great imagination, a wonderful sense of extrapolation, no puns, a well-conceived plot, and an interesting narrative point of view. It's a little reminiscent of "The Stars My Destination" in its scope and grittiness and unwillingness to temper its anger or sugar-coat its themes. Its main character is an amoral, indecisive young man who happens to have had a famous father. Its title character, in some ways the hero of the book, is a doctor who tailors prostitute's bodies into horrible but lucrative mutations or mutilations. I like to think of myself as very open-minded, but novels like this one make me see how shallow that perception of myself is. This novel challenges the reader's ability to accept a scenario that is in all ways horrible and hopeless, with no exit. The reader is bludgeoned at almost every page with some new perversion, some new plot twist, some new means of making the human condition even more alien and unsettling. Despite all of this, it is doubtful that any reader of "Dr. Adder" will come away from it without enrichment, without appreciation, and without the opinion that this is a very good novel. It is that apparent - the talent of this author shows very clearly. Yet this novel took 12 years to reach publication. Science fiction fans like to think of the genre as being on the cutting edge of writing, of being experimental, of being fresh and new and uninhibited. Nothing could be further from the truth. Gabriel Garcia Marquez' "One Hundred Years Of Solitude" would never have been published by a science fiction house - the editors would have said "too weird", "no spaceships", "how did the girl get up into the sky - with anti-gravity devices?", "no dirt-eating, sorry", "why did you start out with the end of the story?", and other such nonsense. If anything, the science fiction establishment, fans, and writers are pretty hidebound and more conservative in their approach to something new than their mainstream counterparts. For all the lip service paid to nourishing new talent, there's precious little crumbs being spread around, and most of those are to new authors who resemble old ones, who rehash the same old themes in the same old manner, as previously stated. But let's leave sleeping dogs lie. It's certainly not any overt censorship that's being perpetrated on us, such as the movie industry put over itself in the 30's and 40's, or the censorship that banned Henry Miller, James Joyce, D. H. Lawrence, and a host of other European writers in the first half of the 20th Century on our shores. And that's what makes it so difficult to eradicate, or even find. It's the editor who suggests to a new author, "Well, everything's fine except this one passage where the woman assumes the shape of a man and goes home and rapes her mother... they won't take that in ANALOG, and we can't take it here." It's the reader who tells all his friends not to read so-and-so's latest work because it's not *really* science fiction. It's the Nebula Awards, the Hugos, it's in every science fiction publishing department and magazine office. It's in every reader. Everyone has an idea of what that elusive ghost "science fiction" is, and even if sometimes he or she is a little fuzzy about what it is, there's certainly no doubt about what it isn't. And that mindset, which all of us have to one degree or another as regards science fiction (me, I don't care what anybody says, I'm not reading any "Little Fuzzy" novels), is at the root of this self-censorship. It is all-pervasive in such a tiny community. From readers who stop reading the "Gor" novels because of their obnoxious sexism, to editors who refuse to publish a novel they know is outstanding because it doesn't fit into one neat category or another, to authors who continue to churn out predictable material because they know it will sell, it binds us all together in very tight chains of the mind. And it begins from that hidebound definition of "science fiction". There are a multitude of reasons to never read a "Gor" novel, and sexism is one of the minor ones. I'm not going to go over the old ground of Hugo Gernsback and his "scientifiction", of the other pulps that contributed to defining in unfortunately negative terms what "science fiction" is. Suffice to say that prior to these idea magnates, the popular readership of the world and the U.S. did not consider H. G. Wells or Jules Verne or various others to be writing "science fiction" of any distinguishable sort. And let's not delude ourselves - the fiction in the pulps was always aimed at primarily juvenile audiences, and continued in that vein for quite awhile (until today? hmmmm...). But due to these factors of history, we have forged a sort of collective definition which has forced many of us to resort to self-censorship to retain our definition. This is not about sex or foul language, necessarily - though try to think of the last short story you read in any of the science fiction magazines where a character said something more nasty than "shit" or "goddamn" (and I'll lay you 2-1 odds that character wasn't a woman). Or try to think of a story in one of those magazines which dealt with the subject of sexuality, as opposed to having sex in it. Science fiction, which so many of us have thought of as being imaginative and radical, has turned out to be provincial, dull, and conservative (even when being radical - re: "Starship Troopers", "Farnham's Freehold", etc. by Robert Heinlein). It's like the slave who chains himself to the wall every night. That's okay, we all can read what we want to read, but let's not indulge in hypocrisies of freedom as we put on our chains. I don't know anyone who reads "bodice rippers", or "surging sagas" (historical romance novels aimed at the female market) who claims that they have any importance whatsoever beyond being a good read. There's no hypocrisy in enjoying trash for being trash. But there certainly is in claiming literary worth for "Battlefield Earth" or "Dragonriders Of Pern" or "The Number Of The Beast". Well, that's all for today, kids. Tune in next week as we take a new tack on the seas of criticism - "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV: Fantasy, Or How To Hack A Hobbit And Build A Balrog In One Easy Lesson". I'll leave you with an extended quote from Phillip K. Dick in his afterword to K. W. Jeter's novel, "Dr. Adder". "Here was not just a good novel; here was a great novel... Very simply, it is a stunning novel and it destroys once and for all your conception of the limitations of science fiction. This is, of course, why so many years had to pass before it saw print... "I don't wish to fall back on the easy statement that DR. ADDER was ahead of its time. It wasn't. It was right on the nose. What was wrong was this: the field of science fiction was *behind* the times. I have no doubt that if DR. ADDER had been published in 1972 it would have been a blockbuster of a commercial success, and what is more, its impact on the field would have been enormous. The field has been growing weak. It has for years become ossified. A stale timidity has crept over it. Endless novels about sword fights and figures in cloaks who perform magic... have been cranked out, published, sold, and the field of science fiction has been transmuted into a joke field... "History does judge you, publisher, author, and reader alike... I am writing this Afterword for you the reader, not for K. W. Jeter. I am writing this to tell you, Forget your timid preconceptions of what a science fiction novel should be like. Forget the little people... and sword fights on imaginary planets. This novel is about *our world* and so it is a dangerous novel... Which is terrific. This is precisely what we need." ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART III Date: 29 May 85 02:19:45 GMT dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes: >Everyone has an idea of what that elusive ghost "science fiction" >is, and even if sometimes he or she is a little fuzzy about what it >is, there's certainly no doubt about what it isn't. And that >mindset, which all of us have to one degree or another as regards >science fiction (me, I don't care what anybody says, I'm not >reading any "Little Fuzzy" novels), is at the root of this >self-censorship. It is all-pervasive And when people criticize what they don't like, THEY are furthering the "self-censorship," right? You made some valid points in the first two parts of this essay, but this one is entirely self-contradictory. Because I read what I enjoy, and I don't read what I don't enjoy, I'm guilty of censorship? Nonsense. Better luck next time. j "vo" p {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 10:39 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply I have one question for Davis Tucker: Who died and appointed you Ghod? You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not. Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else. Just because a majority may agree with your opinion (which, I believe, is not the case now), that does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have mine. Don't try to foist yours off on me as the Word from on high. Also, I think you've lost the ability - if you ever had it - to read for fun, for enjoyment. If no one read for fun, the publishing industry would be practically non-existant. As for science fiction, it would never have gone beyond The War of the Worlds (an excellent book, but the field doesn't end with that one title). On top of all that, you give the impression that you believe science fiction to be the last refuge for the hack writer. That's ridiculous. Go to a book store and look at the bestsellers list. Just about every writer on the list would most likely fit your definition of hack. Even the worst of the science fiction hacks has got to be better than Barbara Cartland. However, she has written lots of books (only one plot, I believe, but lots of books) and they sell quite well. As for television and Star Trek, consider that there are at least two episodes of the Dukes of Hazzard for every one Star Trek. Face it, hacks are everywhere. Some of the mainstream hacks have even tried to write science fiction (it doesn't strike me as quite fair to use Gore Vidal and Doris Lessing as your only examples of mainstream writers - they represent a very small minority of the ones who have tried to write sf) and most of them have failed miserably. Try thinking your arguements out a little more thoroughly next time, please. And then present them as what they are - opinions. Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I Date: 30 May 85 17:53:24 GMT wfi@unc.UUCP (William F. Ingogly) writes: >Without even trying hard I've come up with a list of more-or-less >active mainstream fiction writers who at their worst are at least >as good as the best SF has to offer, and are CERTAINLY better than >certain poseurs who are sometimes cited as paragons of writerly >virtue in this group. How many of the following authors have you >read, for example; Jorge Amado, John [continued ad nauseum] Oh, we are back into this argument again. sigh. To start with, it is possible to generate a list at least as long of BAD mainstream writers as it is to generate a list of good mainstream writers. It is ALSO possible to generate a list of writers, both good and bad, in SF, in mystery, romance, or any genre. This proposition is intuitively obvious to anyone who has studied Sturgeons Law, which also, I should add, is appropriate to postings to sf-lovers, and probably to this posting. For every Graham Greene (who isn't really mainstream, but more in the thriller/mystery/spy genre) or Gunter Grass, you can find an author in some other [generic] genre that writes as well. You can also find a clinker in their work. What I see here is an attempt to define mainstream by the best of the best and compare it with the worst of the best in the SF genre, and that's apples and oranges, folks. Sure, Ellison has clinked out at times, but Mailer and Capote and the rest have tossed out some outrageous and/or self-indulgent stuff as well. If you want to get into the second rank (and rank is an appropriate word for some of this stuff) in the mainstream, look to Sydney Sheldon and friends. What DOES matter is this: the best of the mainstream work is very good. The best of the genre stuff (even in romance) is very good. I'll hold up 'When Jefty is five' or 'Adrift of the Isles of Langerhans' or Wolfe's New Sun books or any number of other genre works against the works of a Capote or a Mailer. I'll also throw away the garbage of both, very happily. >People in this newsgroup have cited Harlan Ellison and Roger >Zelazny, for example, as examples of superior craftsmen of fiction. >Harlan Ellison covers a lack of talent by projecting a hip, >wisecracking persona that he apparently thinks will delude the >unsophisticated into thinking he has something important to say. You sound suspiciously like you are proving a point to yourself. If you've decided going in that SF is sh*t, then you will no doubt be able to prove your preconceptions. I find that Ellison has a wonderful command of the English language. Zelazny deals with cultures and mores, Varley and Spider Robinson with people and attitudes, and Heinlein with whatever he wants to (clunkers and all). If I were to decide that mainstream work was garbage, I'd have no problem 'proving' that to myself, simply because when I went to 'research' the topic, I'd be expecting it. And I'd find it. That doesn't prove anything. >Lift your heads out of the SF ghetto, people; there are a LOT of >excellent craftsmen outside the SF genre writing first-rate >fiction. There are lots of people IN the genre writing first rate fiction, and lots of people outside the genre writing garbage and lots of people in the genre writing garbage. so what? I don't think of it as a ghetto, either - I prefer the term neighborhood. Lots of people DO stay in their neighborhood, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would like to point out, however, that there IS more to life than sf/fantasy, and all of the serious sf authors I've met seem to have read widely beyond the genre literature. You can enjoy 'To Reign in Hell' (to take a recent example on the net) just fine on its own. If you've plowed your way through 'Paradise Lost' (not for the weak of heart) or skipped lightly through 'Inferno' and the rest of Dante's work a lot of the subtle references start making sense and the book takes on different meanings. Lots of authors make allusions to literature outside the genre. A good book survives without it, but it becomes a better book when you can recognize it. Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 May 85 2233-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #191 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 2 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 191 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Heinlein & Dragonlance & A Story Request Answered, Films - Star Trek & Rocky Horror & Adaptions of Books, Television - Between Time and Timbuktu & Marketing PBS Movies & The Prisoner & Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - Mainstream vs SF & Space Opera ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 May 85 15:22:18 CST From: David Callahan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #181 So whatever happened to Harlan Ellison? No longer writing? All washed up? Dead? Womanizing? If anyone knows, do tell. ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 85 15:49:59 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Heinlein references in Music Yes, that is the song I am referring to. On either 4-way-street or The Woodstock Album, there is some patter introducing the song where whoever is talking says that he wrote the song. I think it is Crosby, but I am probably wrong. I do not have the album, only a tape of that song, so I do not know who wrote it. I have never heard Slick's rendition of it. nice to know Im not the only one who listens to the words! /amqueue ------------------------------ From: avsdS!steve@topaz.arpa (Steve Russell) Subject: book comments Date: 29 May 85 22:56:46 GMT Anybody out there reading TSR's "Dragonlance" series? If not, you should be. If you are, who do you think will get killed-off next and what do you think Rastlin's role in all this is? Also, Fizban appears as a senile old wizard in the first novel but in the second he has periods of complete command. Any comments? Lastly, who is the 'emerald gem man' the bad guys keep talking about? steve avsdS:steve ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 85 08:54 PDT From: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re : Name that story To: ukma!sean@topaz.ARPA The book you are thinking of isn't a book at all, but rather a short story. At least the version I read was a short story. It is called "All The Time in the World", and was written by Daniel Keys Moran (his first sale). It appeared in the May 1982 edition of Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine. The story itself is pretty much as you described it, though the characters were slightly different. The woman was born in the post-holocaust future, but she has no control or effect on entropy. She does have silver-iris eyes which will turn wild colors in the presence of radioactivity (a trait that has allowed her clan to survive). Her clan is matriarchal, with its men "stupid grunts" kept for breeding purposes only, and never otherwise mentioned in the story. The man you describe accurately. He was born in the early 1700's and has died at least once before the story takes place, but enemy of entropy that he is, he doesn't stay dead. He describes being bayoneted and decapitated in World War I, and waking up several minutes later feeling somewhat perturbed. It's him that causes the rusted guardrails to turn gleaming. The climactic scene involves a *very* entropic "hand grenade thingy" being thrown at them, him catching it, and he and it having a tug-of-war you would not want to see from anywhere close by. It was an excellent story, even more remarkable considering that it was Moran's first. I have not heard of the author since, however. JohnnyT ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 07:11-EDT From: wesm@Mitre-Bedford Subject: ST III - Kilograms laid to rest After much evaluation (otherwise known as replaying), it is my opinion, as well as that of other unbiased parties, that the Klingon in question do not say "kilograms" but "kalicams" as do the other Klingons in that scene. The best way to prove it is to read his lips. Granted, it is not said clearly, but never the less, careful investigation will prove me right. Wes Miller (wesm@mitre-bedford) ------------------------------ From: warwick!asz@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter) Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show Date: 25 May 85 05:14:54 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits >> from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits >> of it but not it all and as its now been released over here on >> video, I'd like to try and jog my memory. >> Alan > >I, for one, will not. RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it >was destroyed by the audience participation. Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience participation). Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy the sheer brilliance of RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same without audience participation - it is essential to the whole ethos to have the participation. Alex ... mcvax!ukc!ubu!snow!asz ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 05:10:46-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Film adaptations > From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA > All of this has brought up another item of interest. When a > movie is adapted from a book, how obligated is the movie to follow > the story? With the kinds of restrictions I mentioned in my last > message, a direct correlation of story elements is usually > impossible. What if the author of the screenplay believes the > story can be improved with some plot (or character) changes? > Should it be done? How much? I'd be hard pressed to add anything to Mark Leeper's comment that the film maker's first duty is to make a good film, but I have some ancillary remarks: You yourself bring up a good point --- that there are some things in novels that can't translate directly to the screen, necessitating changes. A large cast of main characters is one of the more obvious. I suspect that the director/screenwriter/producer/whatever, in some cases, wants to do his own thing, but it's hard to get financial backing these days, so buying the rights to a popular book --- and casting a popular star --- helps to get that backing. Or, especially these days, the story is close enough to an already published novel that he'd get sued if he didn't buy the rights, but not close enough to be a true adaptation. Oftentimes, it's just that the screenwriter is presumptuous enough to think that he can improve upon the original. Look at Stanley Kubrick. I think the changes he made in bringing Anthony Burgess's A CLOCKWORK ORANGE to the screen were for the better. But, with his THE SHINING, the changes were for the worse. In the novel, Torrance was close to the edge and the supernatural occurrences in the hotel sent him crashing over. With the film, the supernatural events were downplayed in favor of presenting Torrance as nutso right from the beginning. Certainly a valid point of view, and the movie was quite reasonable with that approach. I still think that a more faithful adaptation of King's novel would have made a better film, but I have no ethical objection to Kubrick's having made the changes. Another tack: John Carpenter's THE THING is much more faithful to Campbell's "Who Goes There?" than the Howard Hawks/Christian Nyby film, yet the latter is a better film. Which is preferable? Most of the objections I have to changes is not that they are made, but that in many (most?) cases, the changes are frivolous and make no sense. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!ughenry@topaz.arpa (Henry Neeman) Subject: Re: Obscure PBS show Date: 29 May 85 17:13:21 GMT > Many years ago I saw a show on PBS that I would love to get on > tape or at least see just ONE MORE TIME. IT was called "Between > Time and Timbuktu (sp)" and I saw it on WGBH (who I think produced > it). I believe that it was written by Kurt Vonnegut. Does anyone > remember? Gary "Between Time and Timbuktu" was not written by Vonnegut; rather, it was based on minor characters in his books. The hero was Stony Stevenson, a luckless astronaut who won a trip to the Chono-synclastic infidibulum (sp?) and had some bizzare, avant-garde film adventures. Both the character name and the concept (c.-s. i.) were from Vonnegut's _The_Sirens_of_ Titan_. The title comes from the first chapter of _Sirens_, which is "Between *Timid* and Timbuktu", which, as Vonnegut explains, refers to the fact that all the words which fall into that category in his dictionary have to do with time. Note: I didn't see this show; it came on before I got serious (8-) about PBS. However, the library here has several copies of the script, with stills. Also, Bob and Ray were the commentators (Vonnegut loves Bob and Ray). And other characters (I can't remember who played them) were Diana Moon Glampers (the name of a fat, stupid, unloved old woman in _God_ Bless_You,_Mr._Rosewater_ and the person in charge of handicaps in the short story "Harrison Bergeron"), Harrison Bergeron and some others that I can't remember at the moment. Hope that helps...I know *I* enjoyed it. Henry J. Neeman (ughenry@buffalo) ------------------------------ From: crash!jerryh@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Thu, 30 May 85 09:10:42 PDT Subject: Marketing PBS movies I recently saw a suggestion from someone on this digest concerning PBS and the possibilities of their marketing some of the movies they've made. I'd like to add my signature to that petition (if there is one). I, too, watch "The Lathe of Heaven" every time it comes on PBS, and would gladly pay $30 or $40 for a copy of it on VHS. Has anyone ever suggested to the PBS Corp. (or Inc., or whatever) that they market some of their stuff on videotape? Sounds like an excellent idea to me, and would probably help their cash flow quite a bit. Is there any way to get this suggestion to someone involved with PBS? Jerry Hewett {crash!jerryh@ucsd} ------------------------------ From: clements@bbncca.ARPA (Robert Clements) Subject: The Prisoner returns to New England Date: 31 May 85 04:51:19 GMT The Prisoner will be shown on Channel 11, New Hampshire PBS (and Boston area cable systems) at 9 PM on Saturdays, starting June 8th. /Rcc ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz.arpa (ZNAC343) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. Date: 25 May 85 00:30:16 GMT Space 1999 has not been well received in the UK, mainly because the TV companies played the series down a lot,they only repeat the second series now (The worst in my opinion) and when they do repeat the series, it is put on at awkward times. The series, in my opinion, relied too heavily on special effects and did not concentrate on the characters and plot as heavily as they should have to make it a very good series. If handled correctly the series could have become a cult series (almost as much as STAR TREK). But it was very badly handled and then to compound matters the show brought in Fred Freiberger to produce the show (after he had cocked up the third series of STAR TREK),and they bought in a shape changing alien????? (some may say "what about Garth in 'Whom Gods Destroy'",but he never changed into a non-human form). This really killed off the series in a lot of fans eyes and did not help encourage new people to watch and like the series. ANY REPLIES TO THE ABOVE? ------------------------------ From: ddb@mrvax.DEC Subject: Literary vs SF genres Date: 29 May 85 15:42:35 GMT With or without a license, as they say, I gotta butt into this. I'm pleased to see such a large amount of light being directed into this discussion, even if mostly we're shining it into each others eyes. Detailed suggestions of what is "good literature" today are especially useful. Indeed, I haven't read most of the authors listed, and it's possible that I may try some of them and perform the comparisons suggested (GOOD suggestions on how to compare books, by the way). However, the fact is that both at home and in school I've tried a moderate amount of what various people at various times thought was good literature (literary genre, as opposed to best-seller genre; there is no "mainstream" any more), and I thought it stunk, for exactly the reasons various people are criticizing SF: unbelievable characters, bad dialogue. So I'm not enthusiastic about diving back into the swamp for another go. People have sufficiently different views of humanity that characters probably can't please all of us. Those of you espousing the literary genre as a religion should note that many of us in the other camp feel at least as strongly. I wouldn't say that most of the best writers today are working in SF and fantasy. A good number of them are also in mystery and children's (or young-adult) literature. As for the acerbic attack on Lord of Light, I can only say you must not have read it in the last few years; certainly the line you quote doesn't appear in the book. Not being a lit-crit bullshit artist, I'm not interested in attempting a line-by-line defense of the book, but it's one of my favorites. The Ellison attack was shoddy, very shoddy. The criticism of him for putting forward a hip, witty, front, may be true of him in person, and even of his non-fiction perhaps, but is completely irrelevant to his fiction. Apart from the differences on what constitutes a "believable" character, I think a major source of argument is the relative importance of plot and character to everything else (particularly style, or "quality of writing"). To me, a good plot can sometimes carry mediocre writing; but superb writing can never carry a dull plot. (unsatisfactory characters will ruin everything else no matter what.) David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...!{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|purdue|shasta|utcsrgv}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb Arpa: ddb%mrvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Easynet: Dyer-Bennet@KL2102, mrvax::ddb Compuserve: 74756,723 AT&T/NYNEX: (617) 467-4076 (work) (617) 562-2130 (home) ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 04:36:55-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Space Opera A few comments on "space opera": (1) As previous messages have indicated, it comes from the term "horse opera", which in turn comes from "soap opera", which came about because most of the early Beautiful Daytime Dramas [tip of the hat to Chuin, Reigning Master of Sinanju] were sponsored by laundry soap manufacturers. (2) I recall a review by John Clute (in an old issue of F&SF, but I don't have the specific issue reference on hand) of THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE, in which he describes it in the terms of real, honest to God opera. (3) Consider that "opera" is also the plural for "opus" (and I don't mean the penguin), as well as a particular form of music and drama. (4) The original poster (Alastair Milne) mentioned only one "true" space opera that he knew of. There are at least three others that I know of without even thinking about it -- that is, if you aren't the sort of purist who feels that opera can only use classical music, and hence, that "rock opera" is a contradiction in terms: BLOWS AGAINST THE EMPIRE (Jefferson Starship, 1970) is probably the most well known, and was even nominated for a Best Dramatic Presentation Hugo award. It has a sequel of sorts, THE PLANET EARTH ROCK AND ROLL ORCHESTRA [or: THE EMPIRE BLOWS BACK] (Paul Kantner, 1982), which isn't really a true opera so much as just a collection of songs with sf themes. FLASH FEARLESS VS. THE ZORG WOMEN, PARTS 5 & 6 (Alice Cooper et alia, 1975) is true to both the form of opera and the spirit of space opera. And no, there aren't any Parts 1-4. INTERGALACTIC TOURING BAND (Intergalactic Touring Band, 1977) is the best of the three, in my opinion. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM <"Discography is just my goddamn hobby"> ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jun 85 1033-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #192 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 192 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art For "The Will of the Gods", Books - Duane & Ellison (2 msgs) & Sharon Green & Wyndham & Getting Your First Sale (3 msgs) & Trade Paperbacks, Films - The Black Cauldron & 2001, Music - Sf in Music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 27 May 85 15:42:45-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: The Will of the Gods To: sf-lovers@RUTGERS.ARPA Cc: blarson%ECLD@ECLA The cover of "The Will of the Gods" gets my nomination for most inappropriate. Not only do I have numerous minor nits to pick with it, (i.e. her clan covering is the wrong color) but this is the first cover I remember seeing that one of the characters would have tried to kill anyone who tried to get her into such an outfit. (The cover artist is Ken W. Kelley, but the art director deserves at least as much blame (if not all the blame) for letting such a thing remain on the cover.) Bob Larson Arpa: Blarson@Usc-Ecl.Arpa Uucp: ihnp4!sdcrdcf!uscvax!oberon!blarson ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@topaz.arpa (Ellen Eades) Subject: Re: Paperback "Door into Shadow" Date: 19 May 85 20:14:43 GMT > Well, I picked up the paperback version of "The Door into Shadow" > by Diane Duane this past week. I was startled to find, when I got > it home, that this is the sequel to "The Door into Fire" which > will be released in August. Is this something new, or have I been > asleep? I thought the usual way is to publish volume 1 first, and > then follow it up with volume 2, not vice versa.... > > Roy J. Mongiovi. Sorry, but you must have misread that. The _Door Into Fire_ is already out, has been out for a couple of years. _Door into Shadow_ is the sequel, and _Door into Fire_ has been re-released in a rewritten version to correspond more closely with _Door into Shadow_. I believe there is a third book, _Door into Starlight_, which is due out soon. Ellen Eades ------------------------------ From: petfe!evan@topaz.arpa (Evan Marcus) Subject: A Boy and His Dog Date: 1 Jun 85 05:05:44 GMT There's a movie appearing 4 times on The Movie Channel (at odd times...VCR people take note) called A Boy and His Dog. It is a marvelous post-WWIII sci-fi flick, written by Harlan Ellison, and starring Miami Vice's Don Johnson. It is an ultimately bizarre but wonderful movie, especially a certain line near the end. It is DEFINITELY worth watching if you like sci-fi movies. Comes highly recommended. Comments? Has anyone else ever seen this one? --Evan Marcus {ucbvax|decvax}!vax135!petsd!petfe!evan ...!pedsgd!pedsga!evan ------------------------------ From: sftri!rajeev@topaz.arpa (S.Rajeev) Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog Date: 2 Jun 85 03:00:21 GMT > There's a movie appearing 4 times on The Movie Channel (at odd > times...VCR people take note) called A Boy and His Dog. It is a > marvelous post-WWIII sci-fi flick, written by Harlan Ellison, and > starring Miami Vice's Don Johnson. It is an ultimately bizarre > but wonderful movie, especially a certain line near the end. It > is DEFINITELY worth watching if you like sci-fi movies. > Comes highly recommended. Comments? Has anyone else ever seen > this one? > > --Evan Marcus > {ucbvax|decvax}!vax135!petsd!petfe!evan > ...!pedsgd!pedsga!evan This is a midnight/college-circuit cult classic, and I think deservedly so: the somewhat tongue-in-cheek post-holocaust scenario, the talking dog (who for my money is the best character in the movie, Don Johnson [so that's who that was] notwithstanding), the decidedly motley crew led by Jason Robards that thrives underground, and a menacing robot named Larry(?) -- folks, this is, bizarre as it is, one of the funniest movies I've ever seen. And that classic line at the end: one couldnt think of a more apt ending! I would rate this a must-see. ...ihnp4!attunix!rajeev -- usenet ihnp4!attunix!rajeev@BERKELEY -- arpanet Sri Rajeev, SF 1-342, ATT Info. Sys., Summit, NJ 07901. (201)-522-6330. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 27 May 85 15:42:45-PDT From: Bob Larson Subject: Sharon Green I have enjoyed every book I have read by Sharon Green so far, and I belive that my set is complete. This message is an attempt to point out her work to others who would enjoy it, and even to tell some others to avoid it. The list of her novels: Terrilian: I The Warrior Within II The Warrior Enchained III The Warrior Rearmed Jalav, Amazon warrior: I The Crystals of Mida II An Oath to Mida III Chosen of Mida IV The Will of the Gods Diana Santee, Spaceways agent: I Mind Guest All are told from the point of view of a female main character, who gets into some difficult situations. All involve sword fighting to some degree. All have descriptions of sexual acts. (Like I said above, they aren't for everyone.) Most importantly, (in my opinion) all involve conflicts between societies and people, and have believable characters who don't understand everything instantly. (All the characters see everything not only colored by personal prejudice, but also prejudice due to the society they were raised in.) The Terrilian series seems complete as a trilogy, the Jalav series needs at least one more book, and I doubt there will be less than two more in the Diana Santee series. The Terrilian and Diana Santee series are called "Science fiction" while the Jalav series is called "fantasy", however I could argue the point. Bob Larson Arpa: Blarson@Usc-Ecl.Arpa Uucp: ihnp4!sdcrdcf!uscvax!oberon!blarson ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: Old Triffids paperback Date: 31 May 85 10:28:14 GMT > From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford (Jeff Rogers) > While passing by the "used-books-for-a-quarter" table at a local > library last week, I picked up an early paperback edition of > Wyndham's "The Day of The Triffids," and I'm now wondering: might > it be the first PB edition of that novel? > > This edition was actually published under the title "Revolt of the > Triffids," but with the original title in small print in > parentheses on the cover. The cover illo itself was pretty pulpy, > with a triffid menacing a frightened woman whose shredded blouse > only slightly concealed her torso. > > It was published by Popular Library in March, 1952. Other > copyrights found inside are 1951 by Doubleday & Co. and 1951 by > Crowell-Collier Publishing Co. Also on the copyright page was the > note, "Originally published under the title 'The Day of the > Triffids.'" > > Just consider this another chance for Jerry Boyajian to show his > genius. Flattery will get you anywhere. The early publication history of DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS, is as follows: (1) COLLIER'S 1/6/51-2/10/51 (6-part serial) (2) Doubleday 1951 (first US hardcover) (3) M. Joseph 1951 (first UK hardcover) (4) Popular Lib 1952 (first US paperback) [as REVOLT...] (5) Penguin 1954 (first UK paperback) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 01:32:44 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Publisher & Editor Reviews... >(Note that for a novel, you should send a query with an outline and >sample chapters, *not* the whole novel. You don't even need to >have the novel finished.) Sorry, but that's a bad piece of advice. I only hope that you haven't taken it already and suffered an unnecessary rejection. When you have five books or so out, then you can start thinking about sending outlines. Most of the writers I know, however, sent their first novels complete. When an editor knows for certain what he/she is buying from you, ie, will it sell, they won't care (much) what it's about. James Hogan said (Baycon '85) that the only myth-making he does these days is in the writing of his outlines; the subsequent stories sometimes come out very differently. Hogan, however, is an acknowledged seller. In addition, he sent HIS first novel in complete. Meanwhile, an editor can't be sure of what he/she's getting on the basis of an outline and a few chapters unless he/she's seen your work before. Send the whole thing, with return postage (unless you don't want it back), and hope for the best. I'm marketing my first novel, too. (By the way, the above commentator was right about stories -- having a short story of my own out does not seem to have made much difference; what HAS is going to conventions. Know your editors and colleagues-to-be, get your face seen and your work heard -- in that case, having a prior short story or two published is good, as it gets you into cons as a guest and you can meet more people that way). Leigh Ann Hussey (lah@ucbmiro.BERKELEY (horatio@ucbmiro.BERKELEY) ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: selling your first novel Date: 30 May 85 17:47:13 GMT > From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) >>(Note that for a novel, you should send a query with an outline >>and sample chapters, *not* the whole novel. You don't even need >>to have the novel finished.) > Sorry, but that's a bad piece of advice. I only hope that you > haven't taken it already and suffered an unnecessary rejection. > When you have five books or so out, then you can start thinking > about sending outlines. Most of the writers I know, however, sent > their first novels complete. When an editor knows for certain > what he/she is buying from you, ie, will it sell, they won't care > (much) what it's about. > > Meanwhile, an editor can't be sure of what he/she's getting on the > basis of an outline and a few chapters unless he/she's seen your > work before. Send the whole thing, with return postage (unless > you don't want it back), and hope for the best. I'm marketing my > first novel, too. (By the way, the above commentator was right > about stories -- having a short story of my own out does not seem > to have made much difference; what HAS is going to conventions. > Know your editors and colleagues-to-be, get your face seen and > your work heard -- in that case, having a prior short story or two > published is good, as it gets you into cons as a guest and you can > meet more people that way). > > Leigh Ann Hussey As the poster of that advice, I bow to your superior experience. The idea that going to cons and meeting editors helps sounds especially right. -Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Publisher & Editor Reviews Date: 31 May 85 16:24:24 GMT >From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) >>(Note that for a novel, you should send a query with an outline >>and sample chapters, *not* the whole novel. You don't even need >>to have the novel finished.) > >Sorry, but that's a bad piece of advice. I only hope that you >haven't taken it already and suffered an unnecessary rejection. >When you have five books or so out, then you can start thinking >about sending outlines. Most of the writers I know, however, sent >their first novels complete. At the Editor's panel at Disclave last weekend, the editors all agreed that they would consider an outline *first*, over a complete manuscript, and that they by far prefer to see outlines over manuscripts. Now, if you are a new writer, the response to your outline may be "sounds good, can I see the whole manuscript when it is available?" For some non-obvious reason, I forgot to put the editors's names into my notebook, but they were from several big name companies like Berkely. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 01:32:44 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Trade Paperbacks (the incipient flame) "...those silly, oversized, overpriced "TRADE" paper editions!" Well, that's a matter of opinion. There are many books out which one can only get in trade paper, and are therefore well worth the price. And again, there are some books whose trade editions are better than the mass-markets. I'm thinking specifically of the Bluejay edition of Mildred Downey Broxon's Too Long a Sacrifice. Nice interior illustrations, great centerfold painting (many of Bluejay's books have them; why, though, didn't Door Into Fire have one as its companion volume did? Too bad...), reasonable cover, good binding (sewn in signatures!)... I could go on for days, just out of sheer pleasure in Devil's Advocacy. Besides that, incidentally, it's a very good book, I recommend it (an Irish couple in the sixth century get involved with the Sidhe, leave a fairy mound after a seeming year and find themselves lost in modern- day Northern Ireland, separated. And something more than the usual conflict is afoot... For those who say, "Oh ye Gods, not another Northern Ireland book full of politics and bloodshed and hungerstrikes," I say, read it. You'll be surprised). Leigh Ann Hussey (lah@ucbmiro.BERKELEY (horatio@ucbmiro.BERKELEY) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 May 85 01:32:44 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: The Black Cauldron I have heard that it will be a glomming-together, in typical Disney fashion, of more than one of the books in the Chronicles of Prydain series. I am hoping for the best, nonetheless -- those books are among my favourites. Leigh Ann Hussey (lah@ucbmiro.BERKELEY (horatio@ucbmiro.BERKELEY) ------------------------------ From: tekecs!waltt@topaz.arpa (Walt Tucker) Subject: Re: 2001'' -- a warning Date: 30 May 85 16:02:55 GMT > From: kevin%bach.DEC@decwrl.ARPA > MGM is currently distributing ``2001'' WITH AN INTERMISSION built > into it! This intermission is of course rather jarring to the > flow of the movie. This is not new. When I saw 2001 on its second or third theatrical release (1973?) the intermission was in the movie, also. I believe it occurs right after the scene where Frank and Dave are in the pod and HAL is reading their lips. Chances are this is just a remake of an old print. -- Walt Tucker Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 May 1985 14:47:19 EDT From: AXLER%Upenn-1100%upenn.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: "Crown of Creation" The song "Crown of Creation" borrows from more than one sf source, all without credit. The later sections of the song, which have the lyrics: "Life is change. How it differs from the rocks. I've seen their ways too often for my liking. . . . My life is to survive for you." are, in fact, direct quotations from John Wyndham's short novel "Re-birth". Much of Kantner's science-fictional material proves to be "borrowed", alas; this is just one of the worst-case examples. Dave Axler (Axler%UPenn-1100@csnet-relay) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jun 85 1050-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #193 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 193 Today's Topics: Art - The Cover Art of Chris Foss, Books - Decent Sf (2 msgs) & Editorial Changes & SF Poll, Films - 2001 & Dragonslayer & Rocky Horror, Miscellaneous - The Problem With SF & Source Credit & Comics vs Comix & Titles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: Cover Art (Chris Foss) Date: 31 May 85 13:53:59 GMT > From: yetti!oz > For those of you who enjoy cover art as much as the contents of > any SF book, check out Chris Foss. He is the one who appears on > some of the British prints (Asimov: Currents_of_Space, > Gods_by_themselves, Blish: Cities_in_flight to name a few..) and > draws spaceships that look like space trashcans.... I second the motion. Chris Foss is one of only two artists (Darrell Sweet is the other) whose art on a book cover will guarantee my buying the book. I almost bought one of his originals (for Zelazny's FOUR FOR TOMORROW from Ace), but couldn't really spare the money ($200!) at the time. And his covers for the British paperbacks of the Foundation series also fit nicely together to form one huge painting. I think the CITIES IN FLIGHT boxed set (five paintings altogether --- a wraparound on each book, plus a different wraparound on the box) are my favorites though. > (This is partly due to his excellent command of 3-D design, and > attention to detail.. His work is never a quick air-brush washout > with trivial touch-ups..) Agreed. One of the things that grabbed me about the first cover paintings of his I'd seen was the myriad and minute windows on his spaceships, which made the ships look like they were miles long. > A book of his artwork was published in late seventies, which > contains most of his SF cover art as well as his earlier cover art > for WW2 novels. (U know, the spitfires, U-boats, dogfights etc.) > This book is a must for any SF cover-art lover. Actually, his WWII novel cover paintings are no older than much of his sf art. They grace the (British) paperbacks of most of the thrillers by Geoffrey Jenkins, in addition to others. But his most esoteric (from the viewpoint of an sf art lover) work is the illustrations for THE JOY OF SEX. (No, I am *not* kidding --- it *is* the same Chris Foss!) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM <"Artography is a silly word"> ------------------------------ From: azure!michaelk@topaz.arpa (Michael Kersenbrock) Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf? Date: 30 May 85 05:20:43 GMT There are at least several decent SF books availiable. These include a Brave New World, "1984", Farenheit 451, and the like. More may come to mind with a bit of thought. Does "Rearden Metal" (static power, etc) allow "Atlas Shrugged" to count as SF? Probably not, but then again.... Mike Kersenbrock Tektronix Microcomputer Development Products Aloha, Oregon ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!myers@topaz.arpa (Latitudinarian Lobster) Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf? Date: 2 Jun 85 00:26:55 GMT > There are at least several decent SF books availiable. These > include a Brave New World, "1984", Farenheit 451, and the like. My, fond of anti-utopias, aren't we? I, for one, would hesitate to classify any of these as SF. Give me A.C. Clark any day. Jeff M. ------------------------------ From: Tom Galloway Subject: New Asimov's Editor Date: Sat, 1 Jun 85 23:30 EDT It was announced at Disclave last weekend that Gardner Dozois is the new Editor of Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine. Shawna McCarthy is now the Senior Editor at Bantam Spectra. ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: list of hottest authors, call for more books for SF Poll. Date: 31 May 85 04:32:55 GMT Well the poll is going along famously, i've received over 200 distinct books (about 30 repeaters), written by about 75 authors in 15 mail messages. However i suspect i'm not getting much response from the "grassroots". Many of the books recommended are esoteric in some way (not that i have a problem with that - but this is supposed to be a "canonical" list, that is a list which contains books which an appreciable subset of you out there think *SHOULD* be read). The reason why they should be read is immaterial - excellent story, first use of some interesting idea, creator of a sub-genre, superlative writing, etc. Ideally a canonical list of SF books should contain all books which are in "most" people's collection (or memory for that matter). So get those keyboards working and continue to deluge me with responses. This is going to be a _monster_ of a poll. Greg. Here are the 15 most often cited authors so far (in alphabetical order) try and guess the associated books (some authors have several). Asimov, Isaac Asprin, Robert Beagle, Peter S. Brin, David Clement, Hal de Camp L. Sprague and Pratt, Fletcher Eddings, David Heinlein, Robert A. LeGuin, Ursula K. Niven, Larry Niven, Larry and Pournelle, Jerry Tolkien, J.R.R. Vance, Jack Vinge, Joan D. Wolfe, Gene Who's your favourite? And which book(s) did s/he write? How would you classify the work? Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ From: cornell!jts@topaz.arpa Subject: There was an intermission in 2001 Date: 1 Jun 85 20:49:09 GMT > From: kevin%bach.DEC@decwrl.ARPA > MGM is currently distributing ``2001'' WITH AN INTERMISSION built > into it! Well, I saw 2001 when it was first released (lo these many years ago, sigh), and it had an intermission back then, too. It came just after the scene where HAL reads Bowman's and Poole's lips through one of the pod windows. As I recall, it gave people a chance to become apprehensive about what HAL might be up to, though I guess nowadays it isn't so important. Jim Sasaki (jts@cornell, {decvax|ihnp4|uw-beaver|vax135|...}!cornell!jts) ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Sat, 1 Jun 85 23:29:00 PDT Subject: RE: Dragonslayer - Long On the question of the techniques used to animate Vermithrax Pejorative. >From _Cinefex_6_ page 33 ...(Since ILM would be handeling effects for both _Dragonslayer_ and _Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark simultaneously, the facility was devided into two units. Dennis Muren, Phil Tibbett and Ken Ralston became the key dragon efects people, while Richard Edlund and another crew worked primarly on _Raiders_. Bruce Nicholson of the optical department, Sam Comstock of animation, and a few others would devide their time between shows.) >From page 37 The script described a beast forty feet long with a ninety-foot wingspan. That made for some heafty props: a sixteen-foot head and neck; a twenty-foot tail; an arm-and-wing; and a huge claw. >From page 38 [Referring to baby dragons] "We had one," Barwood recalled, "that looked like an eagle chick - tiny little flappy wings. You couldn't even use it on Saturday morning television it was so cute." The flying dragon was done using Go-motion and a motion controlled moving around a standard articulated dragon model. On the other model, the one providing the walking shots, I refer to: Page 42 The entire six-unit complex rode on a motion controlled cart which had eight feet of travel on a track. Of nineteen stop-motion motors included on the rig, sixteen could be under motion control at one time. In use, the dragon was perched above this contraption, connected to each of the units by rods and, in effect, riding along in midair. The term Go-Motion was created to describe the new process of introducing blurred movement to the stop motion animation. Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ From: microsoft!gordonl@topaz.arpa (Gordon Letwin) Subject: Rocky Horror Video Tape Date: 2 Jun 85 18:22:20 GMT Recent submissions have suggested that those who want to see this movie without the audience participation should rent the video tape. I read, about a year ago, that the video tape of the RHPS *includes* audience participation. It is supposedly a tape of a *showing* of RHPS at some east coast theater famous amoung RHPS fans. Thus, it shows the movie in the background with the audience in the foreground, I presume. I was disappointed to read this... I'd like to see the movie, but have never gone to the theatre because I don't want to see "local talent" strutting their stuff. gordon letwin ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART III Date: 31 May 85 05:31:11 GMT > THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY > PART III: Self-Censorship And The Science Fiction Establishment Our dear friend Davis Tucker has spent a lot of time (and a lot of wordage, at that) attempting a literary criticism of the Science Fiction Genre. After wading through Part III, it is time to make some comments of my own, mainly because I won't bother with part IV or any future parts that he may decide to post. [I refuse to make the comment that it was posted here because this was the only place he could publish it without having to pay someone, but from the quality of the criticism, I probably could. Ditto, of course, to what I say here, but at least I'm concious of that fact.] The comments that Davis made can be summed up into the following generalized arguments: o if reading it is fun, it isn't literature o sf is a genre o genre's are not literature o if it isn't literature, it isn't good o I don't like it, so it CAN'T be good Of all of his points, the last one is the only one that REALLY matters, of course. I won't try to refute him on a point by point basis. If you like SF, the refutations will be intuitively obvious; if you agree with him, nothing I can say will help. One specific comment, though, ought to be addressed. 'Dr. Jeter' is a book that is rather similar to 'The Tin Drum' by Gunter Grass. If there is any reason for the Grass book to be published quickly when the 'equivalent' book goes wanting, it is because Grass was an established author. It is difficult for a publisher to justify a book that doesn't have a demographic attraction, because that is what pays their bills. If you have a very good but unusual book (of which both qualify) then SOMETIMES the publisher will take a chance, but only if he has enough in the budget. In the case of an established author, you are less likely to have a complete bomb because there is a known audience that is likely to buy anything that the author publishes, so the risks are less. Hence, a good book like 'Dr. Jeter' has a lot of strikes against it in the publishing game, since there isn't a name recognition involved and since there isn't a known audience and since the publisher may have to eat the galleys for breakfast if he guesses wrong. Just for reference, it is a LOT easier to get new works published in the SF or Fantasy genre than anywhere else in publishing (excluding self-publishing). My father has been trying to get a book bought for a number of years, so far with no luck. The books are good, very publishable, but mainstream, and getting a first book published out there is almost impossible. He is starting to slant towards other genre's now, because that seems to be the only way in. From my discussions with authors, agents, and publishers, I feel that if he had been working in this genre he would have been published long ago. The publishers out there in the genre DO take chances, a lot more often than other areas of publishing. They do this because the readers support them by buying the new writers and supporting them in taking chances. As an example of what it is like in the rest of the world, there is a not-so-apocryphal story of a person who took the final shooting script of 'Casablanca', retyped it under the original name (Everybody Eats at Sams) and ships it off to 230 agents in the movie industry. Something like 60% returned it as not professional or appropriate for the industry. Something like 15 recognized it as Casablanca. It's tough anywhere in publishing, folks. As a side note, the people who publish the Gor books not only acknowledge that it is garbage, but have also pointed out that those books make enough money to help support a number of other books on their lists that would never have been contracted and published if it wasn't for their subsidies. They also pointed out that the Gor books outsell most of the rest of their publishing lists in the genre combined. to have some winners to support a loser Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 31 May 1985 07:56:19-PDT From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack From: anything you want with TECO and DDT) Subject: proper source credit > Was it Arthur C. Clarke or someone else who said that 90% of > EVERYTHING is garbage? It was Theodore Sturgeon. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 1985 18:01 PST From: Greg Goodknight Subject: Comix vs. Comics >P.S. Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between "comics" and >"comix"? To my understanding,"comix" has been used to denote "comics" that are very unsuitable for youngsters (many of them are unsuitable for anyone). ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: Book (and movie) titles Date: 31 May 85 12:54:08 GMT > From: mtgzz!leeper (Mark Leeper) > This is one of my pet peeves with some science fiction writers. > Back in the days of the Saturday afternoon serials they would give > them flambouyant names line KING OF THE ROCKET MEN. This would > conjure up in kiddees' minds some society of rocket scientists > somewhere and some super-scientist ruling over it. Actually it > was about one man with a rocket suit named Jeff King. So the > "rocket men" are all one man named King. This title promises one > sort of story and the film delivers something fairly different > with the implicit statement "Oh, sorry if you misunderstood our > title." Funny you should use this example. I remember being similarly surprised when I first saw the movie KING OF THE KHYBER RIFLES, and found out that it was about a member of the Khyber Rifles named Athelstan King. When I shortly thereafter came across the book, I noticed that the title was originally KING--OF THE KHYBER RIFLES, and also appeared as KING, OF THE KHYBER RIFLES. Subtle differences, true, but the meaning is a little clearer with the punctuation. However, I can't see that an author should be held responsible for inferences you draw from the title. I recall an incident from when I worked in a library. An elderly gentleman came in to return Vonnegut's BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS, and asked, "Just from the title, what would you think this book is about?" I replied that I couldn't answer that fairly, since I already knew what it was about (even though I hadn't read it). "Wouldn't you think it was about sports?" he then asked. Seeing the association he was making, I replied, "I suppose I might." "Well, it's nothing but a filthy, disgusting piece of trash!" What could I say? The only problem I have with titles is when the title has no bearing whatsoever on the story. Take, for example, the latest Bond movie. What does "A View to a Kill" have to do with the film at all? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jun 85 1111-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #194 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 3 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 194 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Smith & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Best SF Author & Cover Blurbs, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: RAH's defense of Starship Troopers, etc. Date: 30 May 85 17:12:58 GMT I recall an anecdote many years ago, of a conversation between Heinlein and well-known Los Angeles fan, Bjo Trimble. Among other things, Bjo is an SF and fantasy artist of great talent and diversity. In a discussion of whether stories reflect the specific views of their author, Heinlein is said to have remarked, "Bjo ... do people accuse you of being the things that you draw?" Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ From: bunkerb!mary@topaz.arpa (Mary Shurtleff) Subject: Re: Re: space "operas" Date: 31 May 85 12:19:13 GMT > On the other hand, I have always thought of the space opera as > characterizing that branch of SF where there is considerable > action on a relatively large canvas. To me some of the most > rewarding and enjoyable stories would bear the name space opera > rather proudly. For example, Pattern for Conquest, by George O. > Smith, is certainly a classic in the genre. Probably all of the > stories of the immortal E.E.Smith, PhD. The Foundation Series by > Asimov. Star Wars Trilogy I haven't read Pattern for Conquest, but I'll agree with you very strongly on "Doc" Smith's work (the Lensman and Skylark series epitomize space opera to me). I have to disagree on The Foundation Series, however. While the environment is large, lots happens, and it takes place over a long period of time, it is not characterized by: A hero too good to be true (a la Kimball Kinnison) A hero's girlfried too good to be true (Clarissa MacDougall) Lots of space battles and blaster play (beams, rods, needles, and helices of force, plus trusty DeLameters) Supremely evil bad guys (what could be worse than a Plooran?) Space ships that get faster and more powerful with more outrageous weapons in each successive book/chapter. The Foundation Series is much more idea-oriented than space opera, and so does not qualify. M. Shurtleff ------------------------------ From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar) Subject: Re: Amber Waves etc (computers in SF) Date: 23 May 85 18:11:06 GMT > One thing I have noticed recently is a rash of fairly reputable SF > writers including their computers in a novel. There is some of > this in TOD but the last Gateway story is probably a better > example. I have an image of these guys being given a Trash-80 for > their birthday and after a month or so the illness strikes. > Getting a little tired of every protaganist being a computer whiz > especially when the writer has only a superficial background to go > on. Zelazny wrote "Coils" with Saberhagen (sp?) many moons ago, before it was a craze. He also wrote "The Changling" and another one in the same world. All three of these did a goo job of dealing with technology, and "Coils" with computers specifically. I hope that you were not grouping Zelazny in the "... writer has only a superficial background...". Though, I must admit, I was not too wild about the Ghostwheel. But it was a bit more than your average computer :-) David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber ARPA: davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk%amber@dartmouth ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Trumps of Doom Date: 31 May 85 19:58:08 GMT > From: "Stephen R. Balzac" > I'm certainly looking forward to the next one. Does anyone know > when it will be out? The next one, probably called GHOSTWHEEL, is scheduled to be delivered in October. One could normally expect it to appear about a year later, but TRUMPS came out five and a half months earlier than scheduled, so we can hope. I enjoyed the book a great deal, too. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jun 85 15:59:25 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Best SF Pete Williamson writes: > In my opinion, James P. Hogan is one of the very best SF authors > that I've ever read. Principally, I think, because of his genuine > knowlege of computers, science, and technologies. Plus he spins a > marvelous yarn at the same time. Can't wait for his next. Last night I read a short story by Gordon Eklund called "Vermeer's Window". (It's in Terry Carr's "Best SF of the Year #8".) It's about a man who has all known information about Jan Vermeer, the enigmatic seventeenth-century artist, fed into his mind. The man spends his life being Vermeer, painting Vermeer's paintings, without ever feeling the artist except as a force driving his hand and brush. The story (allegory, actually) is only thirteen pages long and written in a simple yet beautiful style. It made me think about what I hope to accomplish with my life, about what creativity really is; it even made me cry. I see no distinction between being an author and being an SF author. A great knowlege of science is no prerequisite for writing good SF (look at the works of Philip Dick, for example). James P. Hogan puts a lot of accurate science into his books, and can spin a yarn, but he has little skill at characterization or at putting any more meaning than sheer adventure into his works. Given the existence of such stories as "Vermeer's Window", "The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World", "The Persistence of Vision", and "Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said", how can one call James Hogan one of the best SF authors? We may perhaps be arguing in circles here. I freely admit to enjoying Hogan's "Three Faces of Tomorrow", Harry Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat" series, and almost everything that Larry Niven has ever written, but I don't call these great works, or their authors great SF writers. These books (along with most SF) are good adventures, and I like them very much on that level. Art, they are not. --Peter Alfke jpa144@cit-vax until June 10th (in limbo) 6/10 -- 6/30 alfke.pasa@xerox July 1st onwards ------------------------------ From: microsoft!gordonl@topaz.arpa (Gordon Letwin) Subject: support for cover blurbs Date: 2 Jun 85 18:29:02 GMT Its true that cover blurbs are an annoyance because they tend to be either inaccurate and/or spoilers. However, you have to admire the talent (sometimes) put into these things - in two short paragraphs they're supposed to "hook" everyone that reads them.. This reminds me of an old issue of MAD magazine, where an interviewer is touring a publishing house. The president stops outside a door and says, "and in here is our most creative writer!" It turns out to be the guy that writes the cover blurbs... The blurb the guy was currently working on was for an economics textbook: "What strange law did Gresham force his women to obey?" ("gresham's law" (sp) is some principle of economics...) Gordon Letwin ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART II Date: 29 May 85 15:17:04 GMT > So, Dave, you're the canonical SF fan? There's plenty of 'lite' > reading out there for people who are looking for something to > shade their noses while they get a suntan; why should you resent > those of us who are looking for something more? I could care less > what you think of 'art for the sophisticate;' there are those of > us who get the greatest enjoyment out of listening to classic > jazz, looking at modern art, and reading well-written SF (oh, and > by the way, the term 'sci fi' is an abomination). > > This interchange is addressing SF on one level; you obviously read > it on another. If you don't like what we're saying, use your 'n' > key. > -- Hugs & kisses, Bill Ingogly Me thinks you miss the point. I am not OFFENDED by classic jazz, modern art, "well written" SF (since you find sci fi such a cultural abomination I will use your abreviation) etc. Variety is the spice of life and enriches all of us, I have probably read and enjoyed some works that even the author of the original posting would consider acceptable. What I disagreed with was the haughty tone of the posting that was criticizing all of us who like to read the perhaps less sophisticated SF (I DO like Zimmer-Bradley and McCaffrey and no doubt alot of others the author would detest) because it is limiting their evolution or recognition of authors of which the author approves. The relation I was making here was that modern art fans often sneer at Classic art, classic jazz people disdain fusion. Personally, I don't sneer or disdain modern art, classic jazz, the "well written" SF I just don't generally like them. Obscure authors are frequently that way because their material is simply not written such that it is accessable to most people. Criticizing the people because they don't like the work instead of recognizing that the author's style has limited his market is just plain ridiculous. If you want recognition write what the critics like, if you want sales write what the masses like, anything else will address some sub-spectra of the populace. Just because the masses don't side with your sub-spectra doesn't make them wrong or you right, we are talking reality here, grow up. David Albrecht General Electric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jun 85 10:06:30 EDT Subject: the problems of SF, and quality writing From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa While browsing in the bookstore the other day, I noticed that Umberto Eco (author of _The Name of the Rose_, an interesting medieval fantasy, and paradigmatic semiotician) called Samuel Delaney ``The most interesting writer working today.'' Also, in writing about the problems of SF, you rely too much on anecdotal evidence: maybe the SF YOU read is lacking in characterization, plot, etc., but that's just because your horizons seem to be limited: maybe you've been going to too many cons. CJ Cherryh, Samuel Delaney, W Gibson, John Ford, Stanislaw Lem, UK LeGuin, are all exceptions to your generalizations about SF. Had you dwelt on them instead of the writers of juvenile SF like Asimov, Clarke, etc., I think your essays would have a much different tone (does anyone over the age of, say, 18 read Asimov?). Speaking of anecdotal evidence, I am reminded of the remarks _The New Republic_ had to make about the infamous _Newsweek_ Yuppie issue: _Newsweek_ had to look real hard to find those dozen yuppies who so fit their preconceptions. Had they chosen, they could have gone out and found a dozen still-active activists to serve as evidence for a special issue on ``Survivors of the Sixties: still caring, still growing.'' I think all of your essays have been guilty of much the same crime. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jun 85 10:31:00 EDT Subject: sf and the critics From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa Someone, in discussing ``the problems of SF'', mentioned the ``poor, misunderstood SF'' syndrome: the critics don't take SF seriously, so they ignore it; and pointed out that it wasn't true anymore--that literary critics DO take a lot of SF seriously. MOVIE Critics, on the other hand... I've seen a number of SF films which I considered quite good (excellent when judged by SF's standards, acceptable when judged by what meager standards of the Filmic Arts I'm able to apply to movies): ``Something Wicked this way comes'' (perhaps the finest portrayal of a novel as a film I have EVER seen), ``Brainstorms'' and ``Dreamscape'' (two movies which, had they been literature, would have been acceptable short stories, and which I think serve as evidence that, in film at least, one word is worth a thousand pictures), ``Android'', which have been panned by the critics, get tiny amounts of promotion, and close in a week. Critics look at these films, and say, ``Oh, this is Science Fiction'', turn off significant parts of their brains, and then write a review that says: ``It wasn't _Star Wars_'' (meaning, it wasn't ``good'' by the same measure of ``good'' that one applies to conclude that _Star Wars_ was Real Good). The films don't get any promotion to speak of, and aren't around long enough (at least here in Boston) for word-of-mouth to do them any good, so they vanish from the face of the earth. Result: good SF movies lose out to _Star Wars_ clones, where special effects substitute for ideas. ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I Date: 31 May 85 22:25:46 GMT chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >To start with, it is possible to generate a list at least as long >of BAD mainstream writers as it is to generate a list of good >mainstream writers. It is ALSO possible to generate a list of >writers, both good and bad, in SF, in mystery, romance, or any >genre. This proposition is intuitively obvious to anyone who has >studied Sturgeons Law, which also, I should add, is appropriate to >postings to sf-lovers, and probably to this posting. Go back and read both my responses to the original postings (part I and part II). I made precisely these points. >What I see here is an attempt to define mainstream by the best of >the best and compare it with the worst of the best in the SF genre, >and that's apples and oranges, folks. Sure, Ellison has clinked out >at times, Again, read my postings. I clearly state that what I'm responding to is not the claim that there are excellent writers in SF, but that MOST OF THE BEST WRITERS ARE IN SF. I don't take kindly to this kind of misrepresentation of what I've said. >but Mailer and Capote and the rest have tossed out some outrageous >and/or self-indulgent stuff as well. If you want to get into the >second rank (and rank is an appropriate word for some of this >stuff) in the mainstream, look to sydney sheldon and friends. I stated in my posting that I agreed 100% with Steve Brust's comments about Mailer and Capote. And read my comment on Sidney Sheldon in net.books a few months ago for my feelings on THAT hack. >What DOES matter is this: the best of the mainstream work is very >good. The best of the genre stuff (even in romance) is very good. >I'll hold up 'When Jefty is five' or 'Adrift of the Isles of >Langerhans' or Wolfe's New Sun books or any number of other genre >works against the works of a Capote or a Mailer. I'll also throw >away the garbage of both, very happily. Again, you've misinterpreted what I've said, or you haven't read all three of my postings. You may judge them differently if you do so. >Lots of people DO stay in their neighborhood, and there is >absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would like to point out, >however, that there IS But there's certainly something wrong with making negative statements about life outside your neighborhood when you know little about it and haven't taken the time to acquaint yourself with the people who inhabit it. Please reread what I've said; you may find that my opinion of SF is not as bleak as you seem to think, and that there's not as much to disagree with in my postings as you may think. -- Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Jun 85 0936-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #195 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 4 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 195 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Dickson & Gardner & Paxson & Zelazny, Films - DefCon 4 & Ladybug & Rocky Horror, Music - More SF in Music, Television - The Prisoner Miscellaneous - Space Opera & Sequels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sdcsla!west@topaz.arpa (Larry West) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell (I liked it) Date: 2 Jun 85 09:41:32 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >> Back in the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to remember that >> Milton drew upon but a single line in the Bible to weave his >> original tale. You see, in the elder days, Lucifer >> (light-bringer) was the name given to the morning star. And some >> biblical person (a king?) glanced up at the morning stars and >> espying Lucifer says something like, "O mighty Lucifer, how far >> thou hast fallen from heaven." The king(?) was simply refering >> to the nearness of the dawn, but Milton took this line and based >> the entire mythos of the heavenly revolt upon it... >> >> Dennis L. McKiernan > >Thanks. Your information is more complete than mine. It is true >that the above mentioned quote is the way that Lucifer became >associated with Satan, but I didn't know that Milton was the >instrument of this. I had assumed the mistake to have been made >before his time. Actually, I think this is a simplification of the story. Lucifer does indeed mean "light-bringer", and indeed was the name given to the "morning star". However, in the specific situation that the quote is from, it is refering to a nearby monarch (one who was dominating the Jews), one of whose titles was Lucifer, in the sense mentioned here. It was, however, impolitic to insult such a powerful neighbor directly. Reference: Asimov's Guide to the Old Testament. (Sorry, I don't have it at hand -- otherwise I'd be more specific.) Larry West Institute for Cognitive Science UC San Diego (mailcode C-015) [x6220] La Jolla, CA 92093 U.S.A. (USA+619-)452-6220 ARPA: UUCP: {ucbvax,sdcrdcf,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcsla!west OR ulysses!sdcsla!west ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 85 18:43:00 EST From: Subject: Gordon R. Dickson's ultimate sequel I've just finished THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA (pub. date is Oct.'84) and I thought I should celebrate by letting everyone know! Given all the discussion about hack writing and sequelmania, I feel as if I ought to examine this novel accordingly. Fortunately for those of you who don't appreciate reams of convoluted analysis (which I'm unable to produce in the first place), I haven't quite got a handle on all the elements. I haven't sorted out all my thoughts yet about this 680+ page book which is the capstone of Dickson's history/chronology known as the "Childe" series. On the other hand, I cannot resist making a few comments and asking a few questions that more knowledgeable net.readers can answer. - I liked it. My interest seldom flagged. There was plenty of action. The plot moved along. Now, how I would rate it is still up in the air. (This book certainly more than made up for my last attempt at reading an sf novel, the 3rd DUNE book.) - I don't think I'm as moved by THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA as I was by SOLDIER, ASK NOT. Certainly, the title, alone, is less dramatic. TFE stands by itself quite well, although it does make references to earlier works such as S,AN or NECROMANCER. - I appreciated the fact that some of the characters were not of typical European stock, however I occasionally wondered about the subtle dominance of white (Caucasian) characters and attitudes/thought. (That leads me to wonder whether Japanese sf, for example, is consistently different in any way.) - Sandra (?) Miesel's analysis of the novel starts on the very next page after the story ends. It ranges from describing the nature of the relationships between the hero and the female protagonists he met on various planets, to comparing the good-guy-vs.-bad-guy duality with religious/mystical figures and philosophy. - Has anyone else read this book? (BTW, I picked this up at the library.) Well, 'nuff said. THE_One and only! ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jun 85 21:10:10 EDT From: Dave Subject: Craig Shaw Gardner Does anyone know anything about a Craig Shaw Gardner? I read a story of his in Flashing Swords #5. It was about a sorcerer named "Ebenezum". I found it a rather amusing story and have been looking for other things by him but have never seen anything. Anybody know if he has written anything else? thanks, ds uucp: {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!steiner arpa: Steiner@RUTGERS ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 3 Jun 1985 14:27:59-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: Diana L. Paxson Why haven't I read anything on Diana Paxson on this net? I recently picked up the Wings of Omen and read a short story of hers, A Breath of Power. I was impressed enough to go looking for other works by her. I found (new on the stands) a novel, Brisingamen. Again, I am very impressed by her style and the way she holds my attention. Is she new to the field? Or has she been around (in cognito) for awhile? Has she written anything else? (quickly, I'm almost finished with Brisingamen) Thanks!!!! Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 3 Jun 1985 17:05:05-PDT From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) To: jlr%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: re: attacks on "Lord of Light" Bill Ingogly writes: "The dialogue, characterization, and narrative in Lord of Light and Creatures of Light and Darkness are amateurish; consider the clumsy and stilted passages where Mahasamatman (sp? I don't own the book any longer and haven't read it for some years) 'heroically' names himself for us mortals' benefit: "...Some call me Sam, and most call me ham, but you can call me Jim, or you can call me Slim..." Is this believable or well-done? ..." True, that is a stilted passage, but Zelazny didn't write it. The correct quote is: "His followers called him Mahasamatman and said he was a god. He preferred to drop the Maha- and -atman and called himself Sam." which sounds considerably better. It's on the cover blurb for the novel. What's odd here is not the faulty quotation, but that Ingogly goes on to suggest that SF readers do a detailed comparison of "Lord of Light" with V. S. Naipaul's "A Bend in the River". This will show the superiority of a mainstream writer's powers of characterization and dialogue. Why should we do the comparison when Ingogly obviously hasn't? How can he say that Naipaul is a better writer when he doesn't even remember Zelazny's cover blurb? In any case, it's weird to compare "A Bend in the River", the story of an alienated Indian shopkeeper in an African town, to Zelazny's mixture of class warfare and mythology. Their themes, settings, plots, characters, and audiences have nothing in common. John Redford DEC-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Mon 3 Jun 85 10:57:00-EDT From: Gern Subject: DEF CON 4 Review, NOT a spoiler My 2 friends and I saw DEF CON 4 Friday night ('Fletch' was sold out). Nanoreview: Morbid Microreview: A very bad movie, bad acting, poor effects, stupid plot being used as a vehicle to be morbid and sick. I did something that I have never done before - walk out on a movie. I lasted about 15 minutes more than my 2 friends and about 1/4 the audience who also walked out. With some handwaving, I was able to get free tickets out of it for us to see 'Fletch' the next night (We all enjoyed it very much). I refuse to discuss any plot details of DEF CON 4 (I might become ill), but I will say that the previews and ads are misleading to the point of being a crime. Only a disturbed/sick person would enjoy it. Gern ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: LADYBUG, LADYBUG Date: 9 Jun 85 06:56:44 GMT LADYBUG, LADYBUG A film review by Mark R. Leeper Actually, I am a little surprised that this 1963 film has been so totally forgotten, even if it isn't the best anti-nuclear war film ever made. The story if of a school that gets a Conelrad alarm telling it that the U.S. is about to be attacked by nuclear weapons. The story follows the children's reactions to the news that a nuclear war is coming. While--as we are told in the credits--the story is based on an actual incident (so much for suspense as to whether the alarm is real or not), the children clearly are meant to be in an allegorical sense everybody living under the threat of the Bomb. The children clearly mouth adult lines rather than talk about nuclear war the way children would. The film does rather effectively show how people looked at nuclear war in the Sixties. Various groups of children react differently. Some panic, some protectively take care of loved ones, some become ruthless survivalists. The problem with the story is that too much of the film is spent showing the principal of the school (William Daniels) deciding to send the children to their homes and then showing a school teacher marching the students to their homes. These scenes are dull on the literal level and do not advance the allegorical meanings of the film. LORD OF THE FLIES, made that same year, does a much better job of integrating its literal and allegorical meanings. All too often the film tries to make overly sentimental statements by having characters wallow in self-pity. THREADS effectively demonstrates that nuclear war is bad without ever appearing self-indulgent, as LADYBUG, LADYBUG often does. LADYBUG, LADYBUG probably went unnoticed in 1963 because it did not have the star-power that ON THE BEACH had, and it is not seen now because most of its points have been made better elsewhere. Still, placed in an historical perspective, it deserves to be seen just to illustrate public sentiment toward the Bomb in the Sixties. It might make an interesting double feature with ATOMIC CAFE. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 12:03 EDT From: Thomas Whitaker Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #191 >>From: warwick!asz@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter) >>>brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >>> Can anyone mail me a summary of the audience participation bits >>> from this film. I saw it once 4 years ago and can remember bits >>> of it but not it all and as its now been released over here on >>> video, I'd like to try and jog my memory. >>> Alan >> >>I, for one, will not. RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it >>was destroyed by the audience participation. > >Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience >participation). Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy >the sheer brilliance of RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same >without audience participation - it is essential to the whole ethos >to have the participation. > Alex > mcvax!ukc!ubu!snow!asz The stage production ran in London about seven years ago at the King's Road Theater. The film and stage productions were true to each other (which came first is not clear to me). However, as a true fan of the film, I was sorely disappointed by the stage production. Reason: No audience participation!! Lots of laughter but not much else. One hilarious exception: When Janet says "Well, I don't like a man with too many muscles.", a man in the front row yelled out "I do!" and Frank congratulated him. The other highlight was at the end of the show when xeroxed copies of the steps to do the Time Warp showered down from the ceiling. I keep it pressed in my book of memories. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 3 Jun 1985 07:55:41-PDT From: winalski%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: Triad This song, which mentions "water brothers," appears on the Jefferson Airplane album "Crown of Creation" and also on the Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young album "Four-Way Street." The song was co-written by Paul Kantner of the Airplane and David Crosby of CSN&Y. The reference to Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land is very clear. SiaSL was extremely popular at the time that "Triad" was written. --PSW ------------------------------ From: sjuvax!iannucci@topaz.arpa (iannucci) Subject: The Prisoner mailing list Date: 31 May 85 19:00:07 GMT Well, people, I have advertised in the past for the Prisoner mailing list, but this is the last time. There never seemed to be enough interest on the net to warrant even using the net, much less creating a newsgroup, and we have nine people on the list so far. Our first topic is the fate of No.2. Where do they come from? Where do they go when they get pulled out of the Village? If you have an interest in joining the group, just mail me. If I could walk THAT way... Dave Iannucci @ St. Joseph's University, Philadelphia [40 00' N 75 15' W] {{ihnp4|ucbvax}!allegra|{psuvax1}!burdvax|astrovax}!sjuvax!iannucci ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 20:29:41 pdt From: Berry Kercheval Subject: Space Opera I can think of several more Honest-to Verdi SF operas. Janacek did one called "The Adventures of Mr. Broucek" in which Mr. Broucek goes to the moon; I have sung in a production of this. Also, when I was an undergrad at UC Riverside, one of the Grad students in the Music department did an adaptation of "The Martian Chronicles" -- I forget her name but can look it up if anyone is really interested. Weber wrote one called something like "the Bobolinks",A I know little more than the fact that the score is one of the few "serious" musical works to call for a theremin. berry Kercheval kerch@lll-tisb.ARPA or berry@zehntel.UUCP ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 22:28:36 PDT Subject: Sequels >A readership that wants a sequel to every novel. . . There is an implication here that there is something automatically wrong with series, trilogies, series, and so on. If a series of whatever length is desired and enjoyed, it is because the writer has created a character, a society or a concept that has captured the imagination of readers. If the point of interest is not covered in detail from beginning to end, there may very well be an interest in more. The fact that the author may have intended this from the beginning does not change the validity of the concept. The market will decide if the writer is correct or not. Sometimes a series should have stopped at one. Sometimes not. I've never heard anyone suggest that Asimov should have stopped with _Foundation_. I'm glad that Steven Brust gave us more than one novel on the life and times of Vladimir Taltos. (On the other hand, many people have said that Herbert *should* have quit after _Dune_.) /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Jun 85 0950-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #196 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 4 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 196 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF Today (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV Date: 2 Jun 85 03:34:24 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCCE FICTION TODAY PART IV: Fantasy, Or How To Hack A Hobbit And Build A Balrog In One Easy Lesson by Davis Tucker Whether we want to admit it our not, science fiction includes fantasy, though given the preponderance of fantasy titles on the shelves, the casual viewer might wonder which is the baby and which is the bathwater. Fantasy has long been to science fiction as science fiction has been to mainstream literature: I think we can all draw the comparison. But fantasy has its own problems and faults and foibles, many common with science fiction, many unique, and these are dragging it down into a muck of mimicry and mediocrity, where once again the same old themes get repeated time and time again. What's even more annoying about fantasy is that much too often, the same *characters* get repeated from author to author. I've lost track of the number of Gandalf clones I've come across, the hordes of Hobbit lookalikes, elves and trolls, etc., and of course what is most odious and just plain silly, the squadrons of stupid dragons that seem to jump from every page whenever an author paints himself or herself into a figurative corner and has to throw a reptilian red herring across the reader's face... grrrrrrr. Had J. R. R. Tolkein known what he was spawning when he wrote his books, good English gentleman that he was, he most likely would have burned every one of them rather than perpetrate upon the world the monstrous assault upon good taste that has arisen in the wake of his success. Just as if Dr. Frankenstein had seen into the future, to see what he was going to unleash... Tolkein's works are finely crafted, well-written, and show an understanding of that element of mythos which is essential to good fantasy. It is not enough in fantasy to build a delightful escapism from the real world of meter maids, Type A behavior, and taxes. You have to do something with it. And precious few of his imitators have bothered to understand and explicate that gut-level need in every human being for good against evil and magic against all with any more subtletly and finesse than a Ginsu knife commercial. What distinguishes good fantasy from the mediocre? The same thing that distinguishes good literature from mediocre literature of any kind. The additional factors are interest, environment, mythic consistency, and probably most important, the ability to inspire in the reader that willing suspension of disbelief which is so necessary to any fiction, but vital to fantasy. What is usually lacking in the fantasy novels ground out today is readable dialogue and character motivation, which go hand-in-hand with silly plots. Why is it that every fantasy novel is about some quest for a magic sword or a magic rock? Why is it that every fantasy novel has a wizard who's a little scatterbrained and a little malefic, but who's still a good guy? And various little characters who prance and gambol about his feet and end up getting the job done under impossible odds (and usually without much food, either). The traditional plot-line seems to go as follows - protagonist is enjoying/hating his daily life in some paradise/hell. Protagonist discovers secret sword/manuscript, or alternatively it comes into his hands from some wizard/old crone. Protagonist decides, "hey - let's go on a quest, guys!" and gathers together a company of friends or acquaintances or magical beings (notice that the "company" idea is always used). After this, they run afoul of the bad guys and lose a few buddies and have a few swordfights, get lost in some caves, and use their magical resources. The wizard usually gets lost around this point, going off to fight some battle of his own, thus pounding the point home that good deeds can be accomplished without magic. Well, a lot of stuff happens, a lot of fancy fairy palaces get described, and our protagonist and his pals finally get to the end of the trilogy and have a climactic showdown and get the magic sword and then everybody lives happily ever after except if you want to write a second trilogy, in which case you leave the bad guys alive. Subtlety is thrown out the window. It is a rare fantasy novel indeed which introduces a fair amount of grey area between good and evil, which concerns itself with that fine gradation which makes some of us heroes, some of us good men, some of us cowards and malcontents, some of us fanatics, some of us inscrutable. If you've ever read the original Brothers Grimm tales, you'd see that it is precisely this balance and dichotomy in each person's soul which is so wonderfully exhibited, and what makes them so challenging and disturbing. In much of ancient mythology, this greyness, this almost existentialist world of petty gods and danger at every door, is put forth with more power and beauty and humanity than most fantasy today. Jason wasn't exactly the nicest guy in the world, and Ulysses had some serious problems himself. Happy endings do not always, and should not always occur. Fantasy is not exempted from dealing with inevitable truths just because it's make-believe. Homer did all this thousands of years ago, and without a wizard. You'd think somebody would have improved on at least the basic plot outline in that time. The Brothers Grimm did a damn good job. "Pinocchio" has more meat and substance and mythical elements than the Darkover novels. Once again, as with science fiction, the readers and authors have entered into this incestuous relationship that perpetrates infinite loops of the same story. The Thomas Covenant books started off with promise, and an interesting premise - that a leper is fundamentally different in his world-view from you and me. But fifty pages or so into the first book, the ten warning signs of mediocre fantasy start screaming at you. Giants, evil wizards, etc., etc., etc. And by the time you finish the first three, there's this horrible realization that this is a story that can and will go on forever. And that you will continue to watch the English language be butchered and bent for no purpose, and that you will read the word "rue" on every page. It seems that especially in fantasy, even more than in science fiction, that nobody knows when to call it quits, take the money and run. Every author seems to go to the well once too often, because it takes less work to put old characters through the same old paces than it does to come up with someone and something new. Fantasy suffers from cuteness these days, a horrible terminal cuteness best exemplified in Robert Athprin'th "Lithp Myth" books. It also suffers from being trite. Without a raised standard for fantasy writing, instead of such drivel as "The Sword Of Shannara" held up as a shining light, dire consequences will result. Even the worst of Michael Moorcock is better than this insult to the intelligence. For every fantasy novel like Orson Card's "Hart's Hope", we have a thousand like "Camber The Heretic". Well, that's all for today. Tune in next week for "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION, PART V: Rays Of Hope Through The Clouds Of Despair". ------------------------------ Date: Mon 3 Jun 85 01:14:06-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: criticism Bill Ingodly writes: > How many of the following authors have you read, for example; > Jorge Amado, John Barth, Donald Barthelme, Saul Bellow, Thomas > Berger, T. Coraghessan Boyle, Italo Calvino, Robert Coover, Don > DeLillo, Joan Didion, Jose Donoso, Stanley Elkins [sic], Carlos > Fuentes, > > In what way are the best writers in SF more numerous or better > writers than these mainstream people? We're talking superior > craftsmanship here, things like real dialogue by real people, > little things I find infrequently in much SF. I've recently read _Invisible_Cities_ (Calvino); saying that it had either characters or dialogue is an act of considerable generosity. (It is virtually pure structure, more like an abstract painting than a novel; recommended, but *NOT* for personality.) Didion's _A_Book_Of_Common_Prayer_ was somewhat better, in that the dialogue captured the characters -- but if the characters were real, they were not especially sane; neither did many of their actions make sense. They were more plausible before I started then after I finished. Other books, further in my past, had realer dialogue and characters; but it does not seem strange to me that the two I've read most recently don't. > because Zelazny doesn't really believe in these characters. I > challenge the best of you out there to care about a character and > bring him or her to life for your readers when you yourself have > no faith in your own characters or any real interest in them other > than as devices to carry the plot along! I can't read Zelazny's mind, except such of it as he broadcasts. It seems to me that he does care about his characters. Ignoring internal evidence in his books, he writes stories about the same characters and _doesn't_ try to publish them -- except once, in a short story collection which I can't find [help?], when he published one. This doesn't quite sound like a sign of intense apathy to me. Again, Mahasamatman strikes me as a more believable character than any in the Calvino, Didion, or Elkin I've read recently. > "...Some call me Sam, and most call me ham, but you can call me > Jim, or you can call me Slim..." Is this believable or well-done? If you had read _Lord_Of_Light_ recently, I would flame at you for not checking your parody-quotation. Sam doesn't say it; it's description and thus believable. It appears in the first and last chapters. Things being as they are, it foreshadows and summarizes the novel, sketching in a few sentences Sam's personality and the important conflicts and their resolution, and placing the novel in a frame. Very well-done. Zelazny's works in general concern rather unusual characters: gods, Princes of Amber, and other people who wield intense personal power -- power derived from their personalities. He describes how such power alters these people, from causing them to become mature (e.g. Sam, Corwin) to destroying them (Dr. Render in "He Who Shapes"). Such people are rare (-8 except for Unix wizards 8-), but are certainly valid characters for SF. Real enough for you? > Lift your heads out of the SF ghetto, people... I hereby allow you, or encourage you, to stop reading SF. With excessive flame, Bard ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Literary vs SF genres Date: 31 May 85 22:50:03 GMT ddb@mrvax.DEC writes: >Indeed, I haven't read most of the authors listed, and it's >possible that I may try some of them and perform the comparisons >suggested (GOOD suggestions on how to compare books, by the way). Good. I enjoy most of the authors on my own list of mainstream authors, and consider my posting a success if I've gotten a few people to at least CONSIDER reading some of these authors (many of whom are just as hungry as your average SF author, by the way) ... >and in school I've tried a moderate amount of what various people >at various times thought was good literature (literary genre, as >opposed to best-seller genre; there is no "mainstream" any more), >and I thought it stunk, for exactly the reasons various people are >criticizing SF: unbelievable characters, bad dialogue. So I'm not >enthusiastic about diving back into the swamp for another go. Hmmm... I realized after posting my article that it may have overstated my point a bit. In another posting on this subject I quoted the SF author (I said Clarke, but it was Sturgeon) who said 90% of EVERYTHING is garbage, so I agree with you to a certain extent. Also, tastes in literature certainly vary. Don't give up on non-SF literature because you've had some bad experiences with it (geez, I said the same thing to a non-SF fan who couldn't see what all the fuss was about SF recently...). You might try Italo Calvino, Jorge Luis Borges' Ficciones, Doris Lessing's Briefing for a Descent into Hell, maybe Thomas Pynchon's V or Crying of Lot 49. I also overstressed dialogue and characterization in my posting; not all good writers stress dialogue or characterization, and there are some on my list whose characters are stylized to a greater or lesser degree (Thomas Pynchon and Ishmael Reed, for example). Gravity's Rainbow, for example, reads at times like a Zap comic book. An acquired taste, I suppose. >Those of you espousing the literary genre as a religion should note >that many of us in the other camp feel at least as strongly. I >wouldn't say that most of the best writers today are working in SF >and fantasy. A good number of them are also in mystery and >children's (or young-adult) literature. If you go back to my posting, you'll find that my main beef was with exactly this statement; of course there are good writers in these genres, and there are good writers who don't fit comfortably in any genre or who work in several genres. >As for the acerbic attack on Lord of Light, I can only say you must >not have read it in the last few years; certainly the line you >quote doesn't appear in the book. Not being a lit-crit bullshit >artist, I'm not interested in attempting a line-by-line defense of >the book, but it's one of my favorites. I haven't read it in some years, but the negative feelings stem from my analyses in the years since (I read it twice ten years ago). The line I quote is a parody of the actual line in the book; I think it's near the end of the book as well as the beginning. There are books I'm fond of that I'm sure many people wouldn't wipe their noses with. One of the things I wanted to get across is that one person's favorite writer may well be another's least favorite (I HAVE read Madwand by Zelazny recently, and felt it was a disaster). The statement that most of the best writers today are working in the SF genre offended me, because I know it's simply NOT TRUE. If there are no sacred cows in so-called mainstream fiction, there certainly are none in SF. I honestly don't believe Zelazny or Ellison rank among the best SF writers working today, though I liked Zelazny a great deal ten years ago and have since changed my mind through reflection on his work as I remember it. I certainly plan to reread it now, to see if my feelings are warranted. And I certainly think no less of anyone who's a rabid Zelazny and/or Ellison fan. >The Ellison attack was shoddy, very shoddy. The criticism of him >for putting forward a hip, witty, front, may be true of him in >person, and even of his non-fiction perhaps, but is completely >irrelevant to his fiction. I see the same hip, witty front in his fiction, unfortunately, from his snappy titles ("Shattered Like A Glass Goblin;" "The Beast Who Shouted Love etc.") to his slick prose. Ellison's fiction fairly drips trendiness, but I can't offhand say why it bothers me so. It seems urban and urbane in a very superficial way to me; consider, for example, "Shattered Like A Glass Goblin," which shows Ellison's knowledge of the '60s counterculture lifestyle and is a 'clever' story. But if you strip away all the trendiness and knowledge of the counterculture, what's left? A rather ordinary horror story. Sorry, I still find Ellison overrated. >Apart from the differences on what constitutes a "believable" >character, I think a major source of argument is the relative >importance of plot and character to everything else (particularly >style, or "quality of writing"). To me, a good plot can sometimes >carry mediocre writing; but superb writing can never carry a dull >plot. (unsatisfactory characters will ruin everything else no >matter what.) I agree 100%. Just as long as we all realize that a plot that's dull to one person may be absorbing to another. -- Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jun 85 1120-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #197 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 197 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art for Footfall, Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & Paxson (3 msgs) & Schenck & Dragonlance, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (2 msgs) & Comix vs Comics & Ad Astra Con & Space Operas (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: psivax!friesen@topaz.arpa (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Cover Art Date: 3 Jun 85 20:18:31 GMT How many of you have seen the dust jacket on the new Larry Niven/Jerry Pournelle book "Footfall"? It is excellent. I even recognized the alien from the advance description I had of it. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua} !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 4 Jun 1985 10:42:02-PDT From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack From: anything you want with TECO and DDT) Subject: Re: A Body and His Dog Note that ``. . . that classic line at the end: one couldn't (sic) think of a more apt ending!'' not only is not in Ellison's novella, but has been publicly disclaimed by Ellison -- he claims that it rather strongly violates the spirit of his story, in particular the actual last line of his story. (I in fact agree with him on this point, though I still like the movie's line.) Also, note that the robot's name is Michael. Kevin ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #181 Date: 3 Jun 85 17:42:14 GMT >From: David Callahan > >So whatever happened to Harlan Ellison? No longer writing? All >washed up? Dead? Womanizing? If anyone knows, do tell. According to Locus of a couple months ago, Harlan has just been getting over a ten-year depression-and-writer's-block. He has begun to deliver on all the back books and such (viz. Medea: Harlan's World) and we can expect to see The Last Dangerous Visions ... Real Soon Now. (Jeez, ten years of depression and writer's block -- no wonder he's seemed so grumpy when I've seen him.) Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Subject: Diana L. Paxson Date: 04 Jun 85 23:48:24 EDT (Tue) From: obrien@CSNET-SH.ARPA Diana L. Paxson has been around for a few years, at least, but probably counts as a "new" writer. She shows up at West Coast conventions and plays Celtic harp (few enough of those around -- wish I could finally meet R. A. MacAvoy to hear her play). Curiously, I only spoke with her to confirm that I knew her father. He was a strategic analyst at Rand during my early days there. Small world. She's an interesting person. Worth reading, worth knowing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 00:33:06 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Diana Paxson Diana is far from being new in the fantasy field. For starters, you can read her previous stories in the "Thieves' World" series. Then there are the chronicles of Westria (set in a post-cataclysm earth in which the only folk deemed worthy to survive are the Society for Creative Anachronism -- just kidding). Titles: Lady of Light; Lady of Darkness. Both published by Pocket Timescape and subsequently victims of the strange mix of bureaucratese etc. that surrounded the folding of that line. The sequels have been bought by Tor, and the third book tentatively titled Silverhair the Wanderer will be out next year some time. Other short stories have appeared in Amazing and Hecate's Cauldron (published by DAW), and Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Sword and Sorceress" anthologies and the "Greyhaven" anthology. Also soon to be released (from Berkley?): White Mare, Red Stallion, a romance novel with a twist (it's set in 6th or so century Scotland; how many romance heroines carry on cogent conversations with the disembodied heads of their fathers?). As you can tell, I like her stuff too, and I think Brisingamen's the best of the lot. I'll let her know she got a fan letter... Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: wed 5 jun 85 07:36:20-pdt From: douglas m. olson Subject: re: diana paxson callaghan%pseudo.dec@decwrl.arpa (gaylene callaghan) writes: >Why haven't I read anything on Diana Paxson on this net? ... Is >she new to the field? Or has she been around (in cognito) for >awhile? Has she written anything else? (quickly, I'm almost >finished with Brisingamen) Diana Paxson has written two other novels that I know about, I believe they are called LADY OF LIGHT and LADY OF DARKNESS. She has been an associate of Marion Zimmer Bradley for awhile and is included in several of MZB's anthologies; I'm not certain she is in all of these, but try GREYHAVEN, SWORD AND SORCERESS I and II, and perhaps the anthologies of the Friends of Darkover, SWORD OF CHAOS and (*arghh*) memory fails me as to the other anthology name. Sorry, my books are 2000 miles away! I remember discovering several other authors in those anthologies, whose works I have continued to snap up whenever I find them...the only one I can name is Jennifer Roberson, who published SHAPECHANGERS last year. MZB has tried to encourage new authors with her anthologies, she evidently reads a large slushpile every year. If you support such efforts, give the books a buy, you never know what you'll find... ddo (dolson @ eclb.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jun 85 11:58 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Any more by this author? I just re-read a great story and wondered if anyone knew of anything else by the author. The story is "The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreak" by Hilbert Schenck. It appears in The Best SF of the year #8, edited by Terry Carr, and the credits list it from Fantasy and Science Fiction, Sept. 1978. It is an awesome story, and I refuse to spoil it, except to say that it is set in England during a raging storm and the hero has to save the crew of a wreaked sailing vessel. The results are no less than cosmic. Does anyone know where I can find more by Mr. Schenck, and is it up to snuff? This story really appealed to me. I loved the setting, mood, tone, and the wonderful power of the story. I highly recommend this story to anyone reading. Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!dave@topaz.arpa (David Corbin) Subject: Re: book comments (DragonLance) [ SEMI-SPOILER ]! Date: 2 Jun 85 16:27:47 GMT > Anybody out there reading TSR's "Dragonlance" series? > > If not, you should be. > > If you are, who do you think will get killed-off next and what do > you think Rastlin's role in all this is? > > Also, Fizban appears as a senile old wizard in the first novel but > in the second he has periods of complete command. Any comments? > > Lastly, who is the 'emerald gem man' the bad guys keep talking > about? > > steve avsdS:steve Yes, I have read the first 2 DragonLance books, and I am anxiously awaiting the third. (September! Oh that is sooo far away). Killed off next? I don't know. I wasn't very pleased when Sturm died. He was, after all, a good guy. Furthermore, he was above politics, and wasn't afraid to say so, even at the cost of his life long ambition (or so he thought). Raistlin's role is an easy one...His own. He is the personification of a neutral person I have ever seen. He wants power, for himself. Simple. Fizban is a different story. I have NO doubt about who Fizban REALLY is, but I won't say here, in case you haven't figured it out. If you really want to know what I think, then send me mail. Who is the Green Gemstone Man? I don't know. Who out there is also playing the DragonLance Modules? Generally, I don't like modules, but this series (once DL5 came out) is very good. Well designed and doesn't need lots of modification. You have one definite set purpose, as opposed to "wiping everything in the module out". David Corbin Georgia Institute of Technology Box 34034 Atlanta GA 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dave {rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!gitpyr!dave ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 22:34:33 PDT Subject: Re:Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY - PART I I could burn out a disk citing from W. F. Ingogly's diatribe of 27 May, so I won't bother. There is a great deal in his message with which I disagree, but it all comes down to a simple, and perhaps obvious, fact. If one is determined to dislike an author, a class of writing, or anything else, no saving grace will bring about a change of mind. It seems that nothing will clean away the dirt that Mr. Ingogly sees caked upon science fiction. I can think of no argument that would change his mind. In regard to the highly subjective test we are offered for comparing books, I should like to mention an Asimov short story titled (as best I recall) "The Immortal Bard." In the story, a university physics professor tells an English professor of a time machine he has built. Already, we learn, he has used it to bring Shakespeare to the present. The gentleman was so fascinated to learn that his works were still studied and performed that the physicist enrolled him in the English professor's Shakespeare course--which he proceeded to flunk. In short, be careful when attributing brilliant craftmanship and subtle imagry to a favored author. The writer concerned may know nothing about it. One quote: >Lift your head out of the SF ghetto. . . Where on earth, Mr. Ingogly, did you get the idea that anyone here reads science fiction to the exclusion of all else? Do you stick to "mainstream" and refuse to soil your hands with mysteries, fantasies, biographies or other "lower" forms of writing? None of the people I know wear the kind of literary blinder you attribute to us. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: sdcsla!west@topaz.arpa (Larry West) Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf? -- plug for IASFM Date: 2 Jun 85 09:24:04 GMT thomas@utah-gr.UUCP (Spencer W. Thomas) writes: >There was an interesting "editorial" in the book review column of >this month's Asimov's SF (don't have it here, so I don't know if it >is June, July, Aug, or Sept :-). Recommended reading if you are >interested in a comparison between "mainstream" and "genre" >literature. The editorial is by Norman Spinrad, and is certainly worth reading. He talks about "genre" writers trying to break out into commercial success and of successful authors moving towards SF-like writing. One of his more interesting examples was of Norman Mailer. His book "Ancient Evenings" was widely criticized (not by everyone, of course) for historical inaccuracies and other "shortcomings", because the reviewers did not recognize it as science fiction (by which term I include fantasy and "speculative fiction" in general). Not "historical fiction" (yech), but SF. I read AE a few years ago, and though I thought the masculine sexuality was a bit overdone, the writing was very good, and it was definitely an engrossing story. (Yeah, that's a double entendre there.) And it was also science fiction. One of the best SF novels I've read. Anyway, the article is interesting. ALSO: I highly recommend the magazine: I haven't seen any magazine (literary or SF) beside Asimov's [well, okay, the New Yorker] which has so many good stories per year. Of course there are a few losers, but generally half of the stories are *excellent*. One clue to that is that some of the readers complain about the stories "not being science fiction". Indeed, many of the stories would not fit into any other commercial magazine, and that's part of the magazine's appeal. Okay, I stop now. Larry West Institute for Cognitive Science UC San Diego (mailcode C-015) [x6220] La Jolla, CA 92093 U.S.A. (USA+619-)452-6220 ARPA: UUCP: {ucbvax,sdcrdcf,decvax,ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcsla!west OR ulysses!sdcsla!west ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 09:40 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: comix and comics Some one (whose name slips my mind at the moment, sorry) asked about the difference between comix and comics. Comix are generally considered to be underground comic books. Things like the Fabulous Furry Freak Bros. fit in this category. Comics are more traditional comic books. Spider-Man, Superman, Elfquest, American Flagg (the last two are relative newcomers but are both excellent examples of what *can* be done with the comics medium). I hope this answers your question. Henry Vogel ------------------------------ From: rochester!ciaraldi@topaz.arpa Subject: Ad Astra Con in Toronto Date: 4 Jun 85 12:58:10 GMT Can anyone give me more info on the Ad Astra V convention being held this coming weekend in Toronto? It is supposed to be June 7-9 (Friday-Sunday) and has guests David Brin (Sundiver, Startide Rising, and The Practice Effect), Vonda McIntyre (Dreamsnake), and Mike Glyer (File 770, a fanzine). What are the activities planned? When does it start on Friday and end on Sunday? Are all activiteis at the Howard Johnson's Airport Hotel? Thanks for the help. Mike Ciaraldi seismo!rochester!ciaraldi ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Re: space "operas" Date: 4 Jun 85 12:19:53 GMT If there is "space opera," then there ought logically to be the equivalents of "Space Verdi," Space Puccini," "Space Wagner," etc. My personal definition of space opera does not include the built-in put-downs being promulgated about the net - probably by people who would put down conventional opera, if they could. Therefore, my definition is quite able to include "The Foundation" series. You see, I space opera. And I the Foundation series. Perhaps Asimov is Wagner and the Foundation is the Ring. Lastly, people who have not read George O. Smith's space operas have a real treat in store for them. "Pattern for Conquest" is my favorite, but there are others. "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Re: space "operas" Date: 4 Jun 85 13:17:25 GMT >Supremely evil bad guys (what could be worse than a Plooran?) You must have forgot the Overlords of Delgon :-) ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 4 Jun 85 09:54:44 GMT Talking of space opera (a la E.E. Doc Smith), does anyone recall Perry Rhodan? This actually billed itself as space opera, started in Germany, and eventually started to take over the whole world. I have been collecting English editions for yonks now, and have recently found the first book (!!) in its posh, Foss covered edition. I am up to 32 (Challenge of the Unknown, see, I told you it was space opera) and am scanning bookshops for any more hypertransitions. The majority of it is gunk, but it's highly readable gunk. I've seen decent editions up to about 100 and something. ****** WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FILM? ****** There was supposed to be a film: 'SOS from Outer Space' - Where is it now? ****** PLEASE MAIL ME ****** Robert Ramsay aka Lazarus Long (Champions) Beveric Orcsplatter (AD&D) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 5 Jun 85 1156-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #198 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Jun 85 1156-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #198 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 5 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 198 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Salmonson & Tepper & Liavek, Films - Rocky Horror & A View to a Kill, Miscellaneous - SF as Art & The Problems of SF (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: weitek!neal@topaz.arpa (Neal Bedard) Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog Date: 4 Jun 85 00:02:48 GMT evan@petfe.UUCP (Evan Marcus) writes: > Comes highly recommended. Comments? Has anyone else ever seen > this one? Yep. You may never think the same way about popcorn again. Jason Robards is priceless as the Dog's telepathic voice. -Neal B. ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: Harlan Ellison's Future Whereabouts Date: 5 Jun 85 06:37:48 GMT > From: David Callahan > So whatever happened to Harlan Ellison? No longer writing? All > washed up? Dead? Womanizing? If anyone knows, do tell. Harlan Ellison is the scheduled GOH at Albacon 85, Friday 19th July - Monday 22nd July, The Central Hotel, Glasgow, Scotland. So I'll ask him and let you know what he's doing! NAME: John A Mariani PHONE: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 UUCP: ...!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@uk.ac.ucl.cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp POST: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Engineering Building, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Starship Troopers Date: 3 Jun 85 18:00:32 GMT >Well, how about fascism as glorified politics? Look, most of these objections have been answered at some length, by Heinlein and others (see, for example *Expanded Universe*.) So I am going to ignore them. However: (from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. C. Merriam Co, 1977) fascism: 1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible supression of opposition ST has a government in which -- there is no conscription there is no obvious suppression of individual opinion (recall that the public was loudly arguing for the Gvt to call back the forces to defend Earth after Buenos Aires was destroyed) there is never once a mention of the President or whatever, or in fact of any political figure higher than (I think) a mayor. Doesn't even control its servicemen to the extent that they cannot resign at will (much freer than today -- try giving your top sergeant two-weeks notice) Whatever ST was, it was *not* "fascist." Except to the extent that "fascist" is now mapped to "anything that I think is Not A Good Thing." Let's be a little careful out there... Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 00:44:00 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (First Lieutenant Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Japanese SF/F Theo, if you want to read some good Japanese-based Fantasy, read the Tomoe Gozen saga by Jessica Amanda Salmonson. Alternate Japan (Naipon) in which the various Shinto deities and other entities are alive and active. Good swordplay (accurate Japanese styles!), and as if that weren't enough, a woman samurai protagonist. Good stuff. Nice interior art, too. Titles: (not necessarily in order -- haven't read them in a while) Tomoe Gozen The Golden Naginata The Thousand Shrine Warrior Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bih ih bih) Subject: Our Forgetful Authors, or Gender-Shmender Date: 4 Jun 85 01:24:41 GMT From Sheri S. Tepper's _Wizard's_Eleven_ (the third book in the True Game series) [Ace, 1984] : p 43. "He went away leading my lovely tall black horse and came back with a high-stepping mare of an unusual yellow color with nubby shoes such as they use along the River Dourt, or so Yarrel had once told me. It was not an inconspicuous animal." p 58. "'Get rid of that yellow horse and his strange shoes.'" [!] p 76-77 "The yellow horse I had told him to get rid of was cavorting in a paddock near the Inn, nubby shoes and all. ... 'He's a good horse. No need to trade him off just yet.'" Tut, tut. She to it, within that tiny space between sentences. And then on to he, a mere 15 pages later. Needless to say, there are not TWO yellow horses nor more than one horse with such shoes. >Sigh< However, I very much like Sheri Tepper's novels and I recommend them (at least, to those who enjoy fantasy) (-: or to those, who hate good fantasy, that I detest immensely :-) . L S Chabot decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (Bih ih bih) Subject: _Liavek_ Date: 4 Jun 85 01:07:01 GMT "In the bestselling tradition of THIEVES' WORLD (TM)", the cover declares, but frankly, _Liavek_, edited by Will Shetterly (_Cats_Have_No...) and Emma Bull, is better. Oops, that's a pretty bald statement. Shall I say, then, that this first volume of Liavek is a much smoother read that the first we read of Thieves' World: each individual polished story is entertaining on its own, the stories have some overlap without one author mangling another's protagonist, the gods may scamper about without leaving smoking ruins in their wakes. Liavek is a place where you could believe a merchant and a thief making a decent living. Each time a new Thieves' World volume comes out I eventually break down and rush it home in a plain brown bag: a guilty addiction, but I can't stand the thought of missing out on the big WHOOSH! when Sanctuary goes the way of Atlantis. But, then, Liavek was built on more stable ground. However, I could not let you leave thinking _Liavek_ is boring-dull-cute. (Camels are never cute.) There is magic here, of a different and interesting kind. There are menacing evils here, magical and otherwise. There are stories by (in order of appearance): Emma Bull, Gene Wolfe, Patricia C. Wrede, Nancy Kress (whose first novel was _The_Prince_of_Morning_ Bells_), Steven Brust, Jane Yolen, Kara Dalkey, Pamela C. Dean (_The_Secret_ Country_), Megan Lindhold, Will Shetterly, Barry B. Longyear. There are two great maps (the one showing the town is my favorite because of its perspective). You can read the stories without any introductory descriptions of Liavek &tc, although you can find such in the Appendices. (This is definitely a better idea than putting it first, because it gives the stories a chance to succeed or fail on their own in convincing you of their tangibility. Rant, rant. Well, anyone who likes it the other way, read the appendices first.) Damn, there's a *whole* HERD of camels on the cover. (With eyelids, even.) L S Chabot decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Picture Show Date: 3 Jun 85 17:37:55 GMT asz@warwick.UUCP (Frank N Furter) writes: >>I, for one, will not. RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it >>was destroyed by the audience participation. >> -- SKZB > >Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience >participation). Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy >the sheer brilliance of My understanding of the London stage play is that there was little if any audience participation -- except for the ushers, who were dressed in odd, faceless costumes, and who most wandered the audience in a daze rather then helping anyone find a seat. >RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same without audience >participation - it is essential to the whole ethos to have the >participation. Hey! Watch this wrong generation stuff -- I'm almost two months older than SKZB, and I like the audience participation. It was nice to see the tape once, though. That way, I understand the punchlines. What do people who are RH virgins do now, when there are only a few of us left who understand anything going on on the screen (like anything the Criminologist says.) Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1985 20:55 EDT From: GZT.VAMPIRE%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: A View To A Kill and Temple of Doom Has anybody that has seen both of them noticed... the underground mines seem to be the same set? Down to an unexplained gap in the wall in AVTAK which looks like it might lead to a pit of molten fire, and flooded tunnels with side escape tunnels, and stuff like that. Admittedly AVTAK was made by a foreign film company, but you never know... -Lu. ------------------------------ Date: 4 Jun 1985 11:35-PDT From: Tom Wadlow Subject: SF as art >``These books (along with most SF) are good adventures, and >I like them very much on that level. Art, they are not.'' > -- Peter Alfke Does science fiction (as opposed to speculative fiction or fantasy) have to be art to be good? Not necessarily. What attracts me to science fiction are the ideas, not just the style or even (to a certain degree) the quality of the writing. I enjoy taking a look at things from a different perspective and I think that good science fiction does that. A really excellent science fiction story can be written by asking the question "If this goes on, what might happen?". In classic English literature, *how* an author says what he/she has to say is roughly as important as *what* is being said. In science fiction, I feel the balance can be shifted away from the "how" as long as the "what" is sufficiently interesting. Please note that I am not saying that an SF author can be an incompetant wordsmith and still be a good SF writer. But also note that I do believe that superior style and literary craftsmanship are only a minor part of what science fiction needs to be good. Tom ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: A SHORT RESPONSE Date: 5 Jun 85 00:17:18 GMT Just for the record: 1) I *do* like science fiction, quite a lot. Don't say that I don't because I point out some of its problems. 2) I do not think I am God. I don't even think I'm L. Ron Hubbard. 3) I read for fun. I read trash. I just don't have any illusions about it, even though I enjoy it. "Enjoyment" is not the be-all and end-all of life. 4) I realize that what I say is my opinion, and I am surprised at the number of people who have seen fit to inform me of this obvious fact. Lighten up. At least I have attempted to support my opinion with examples and logic. 5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is bad art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them is to lump greatness with mediocrity. Otherwise, there is no basis for *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which is incredibly egocentric. 6) "Well-written" and "boring" are mutually exclusive in my book. 7) I am not a "fan". I don't go to "cons". But my familiarity with the field is not lacking, nor is my familiarity with mainstream fiction. 8) I could be wrong about everything, but there haven't been too many attempts to change my mind with reason and comparisons and concrete examples. 9) I do not think that personal attacks and name-calling, such as I have been receiving in my mailbox, are necessary, nor particularly witty, either. 10) I notice that the majority of responses have ignored the main point of each essay. No one chose to argue with Phillip K. Dick when he said, "The field has been growing weak... it has become ossified. A stale timidity has crept over it..." Davis Tucker ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf? Date: 3 Jun 85 15:35:41 GMT > Remember they said DH Lawrence (for example) wrote "garbage" and > "trash" when his spicier works first came out. > Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez > The Ohio State University > {ucbvax,decvax}!cbosg!osu-eddie!julian Er, DH Lawrence is a her. I think her works, spicier and otherwise, aren't really very good. She insists on explaining what her characters are like, rather than showing it, and I've never been able to identify with any of them. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 01:37:21 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Problems with SF: Fantasy Just to satisfy my curiosity, how much fantasy have you read, discounting The Sword of Sha Na Na, which you justifiably lambaste (by the way, you should know that among fantasists, far from it's being held up as "shining light", it is a watchword for bad fantasy. If there is any light/hope involved, it is, "If Del Rey will by *THAT* then there must be some hope for me..." :-), and the Darkover books which you also mention. (Yes, MZB's writing is spotty. We all have bad days.) Have you read The Charwoman's Shadow and Don Rodriguez by Lord Dunsany? Mistress of Mistresses by ER Eddison (also The Worm Ourobouros, if you like extended strategy, intricacies of politics, and swordplay. MoM is my favourite of his, but I thought I should mention his first...)? Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser books (great Sword & Sorcery, the exemplar of the branch, RE Howard notwithstanding)? And for more contemporary stuff, The Last Unicorn by Peter S. Beagle (beautiful language; astonishing and right juxtapositions of words)? Diane Duane's Door books, and her juvenile "Wizardry" series? The Murry and Austin family series by Madeleine L'Engle (juvenile, but worth it!)? The Traveller in Black by John Brunner? And numerous works by Poul Anderson, Avram Davidson (The Phoenix & the Mirror is great!), Mildred Downey Broxon, John Gardner (The Wierdstone of Brisingamen and The Moon of Gomrath are my favourites)? And one last old source, the incredible A. Merritt (The Ship r, The Face in the Abyss, The Moon Pool; like poetry, but you never find out until you read it out loud)? HP Lovecraft is good too, but I prefer his older stuff -- the collection called The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath is very nice, though some events are presented as scary and are more fascinating than frightening. But then, Lovecraft was afraid of everything :-) These are my favourites (ATTENTION, WHOEVER'S DOING THE POLL!). I have discovered in the course of many book discussions in the Mythopoeic Society (info supplied on request...) that it is much easier to tear a book to shreds (figuratively!) than to say good things about it. Why cannot the same language used to criticise be used to commend? Why must commendation be limited in its descriptive terms -- you'll find much more subtlety and exactness of word choice in a pan than you will in a rave (at least I do). What books DO you like, David, and why? And one final note: yes, authors tend to write things they are sure will sell money; perhaps you have a comfortable and steady income. Very few working writers today are independently wealthy -- we have to eat too. Perhaps you will eventually find yourself having to write a piece of code you're not proud of. Think of the writers you denigrate then, eh? Maybe you should write the kinds of stories you like, if you aren't satisfied with existing works. It is not all that easy, as I hope you'll find. Ahem. End of flame. Leigh Ann ("Fantasy Book", Dec. 84) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 6 Jun 85 0942-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #199 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Jun 85 0942-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #199 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 6 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 199 Today's Topics: Books - Gardner & Spider Robinson & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, Films - Rocky Horror & Buckaroo Banzaii Miscellaneous - Selling Your First Story ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 15:48 EDT From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Craig Shaw Gardner Cc: steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA In #195 Dave Steiner asked: Does anyone know anything about a Craig Shaw Gardner? I read a story of his in Flashing Swords #5. It was about a sorcerer named "Ebenezum". I found it a rather amusing story and have been looking for other things by him but have never seen anything. Anybody know if he has written anything else? Craig is an old friend, although we haven't been in touch very much the last few years. He's been writing for over a decade; he's published fiction in a couple of magazines and a few anthologies, film reviews, and SF book reviews. I've heard that he's recently signed a multibook contract with a major SF publisher. Craig is a terrific guy, very funny. He goes to a lot of cons and serves on panels at most of them, so you might run into him if you go to any yourself. I'll give him a call and get a list of his fiction credits for you. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 23:25:52 EST From: David A. Adler Subject: Info on Spider Robinson novel A friend of mine bought Spider Robinson's new collection, MELANCHOLY ELEPHANTS, and noticed a novel in the list of books that he had never heard of. Does anyone know of any information about NIGHT OF POWER by Spider Robinson? Thanks in advance, DAdler ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 04:15:55 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: re: re: attacks on "Lord of Light" I have to agree with John Redford here, although I have some sympathy with Bill Ingogly's point. I've read both Naipaul's A BEND IN THE RIVER and Zelazny's LORD OF LIGHT and they are so different, in plot, style, characterization and intent, that comparing them on a sentence by sentence basis strikes me as an absurd exercise. Having said that, I think I can still make some generalizations about the books that might help you decide which one is more interesting to read. BEND is narrated by an Indian shopkeeper named Salim who has come to live in an unnamed town on an unnamed river in an unnamed African country (which is apparently modeled after Stanleyville in the Congo). The novel mercilessly describes the gradual, inevitable collapse of Salim's political and social illusions about life in his new country. While the characters appear realistic, I still got the feeling they mostly exist to flesh out points about social problems in third world countries. Little or no effort is made to make the characters sympathetic, and I felt frequent annoyance at the foolishness or obstinacy of almost all the characters, particularly the narrator. My principal emotion when I finished the novel was disgust, and the fact that Naipaul intended me to be disgusted didn't make me feel much better. I much preferred the other Naipaul novel I've read, A HOUSE FOR MR. BISWAS, which is a fictionalized autobiography of Naipaul's childhood in Trinidad. Although HOUSE is equally pitiless toward its characters, they seemed much more human, and I was able to empathize with them almost in spite of the author... LORD OF LIGHT is about what happens when some otherwise ordinary human beings try to become gods. There's probably no point in describing the book in detail since most of this audience is familiar with it, but I will say that while LORD is not profound, it is deeper than Bill Ingogly implies; it suggests that there is more to the god business than the characters in the novel can imagine, and works this hypothesis out in careful stages rather than announcing it as a conclusion. The style is not as pedestrian as Bill would have it either, although it does have its weaknesses; the story is a melodrama in the same form as a classic legend, tending to colorful action at the expense of sophisticated dialogue. I think Zelazny clearly relishes his characters and enjoys playing serious scenes off against comic relief (which takes the form of anachronisms, typical of Zelazny). The characters don't seem dead, as Bill would claim. In fact the whole novel is basically written for fun, and the fun rubs off on the reader (at least on me). If I had to choose which of the two books I could take to a desert island, there's no question that I would take LORD OF LIGHT. Perhaps this shows I have no taste... (... which should come as no surprise to some of you!) Now, with all that in front, let me back up a little further. Bill's point -- that you should not automatically assume that the only good books, or even most good books, are sf books, WITHOUT TRYING ANY OTHER KIND -- is basically a good one. The point I would like to share with you is simply the converse of Bill's: Don't assume that a book must be good just because someone else tells you so; it's YOUR taste in books that counts, not some snotty reviewer's (who, me?). It may require some effort to determine the extent to which a reviewer's taste coincides with your own, but you have to make it, otherwise you won't be reading the books you'll enjoy the most. If you expose yourself only to sf reviews, you'll miss plenty of non-sf books that you might have liked, so the implication of both points is that you should hunt around more. You shouldn't feel guilty about not reading boring classics, but you will probably feel chagrin if you overlook a work you lumped into that category and later on discover that it was brilliant... Does all this make sense? Hope it's not too obvious... (Here's my little plug: a book that combines gritty realism with the head space of certain kinds of sf (such as Ballard or Dick) is FAR TORTUGA by Peter Matthiessen. Try reading it and see if you don't get the same kick you get when reading excellent sf; I sure did.) Trying to figure out what brought on this spasm of self-criticism in sf-lovers, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 85 12:02:29 PDT (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Amber Update I just got off the phone with Roger's agent. It seems that all of the rumours about the new Amber series (some of them reported in Locus) are not exactly accurate. The facts are: Roger has contracted to do 7 books for the series. Starting with the second book, Roger's editor will be ... Frank Herbert! The titles of the books will be: Trumps of Doom [Already in print] Doom Messiah Children of Doom Godemperor of Doom Heretics of Doom Chapterhouse Doom Doom: The Final Solution [Sorry -- it's not even my joke! Ken the Kunning came up with the idea.] Perry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 21:53:28 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: IASFM I've been hearing a lot lately about how good Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine is. From time to time I pick up issues of Analog or F&SF; Analog just doesn't run enough worthwhile stories for it to be worth my while to read through every issue, and F&SF is almost but not quite worth it. From what I hear of Asimov's, it has the highest level of quality of the three. I really would like to keep up more with what's going on, and I'm on the verge of getting a subscription. Does anyone out there have any opinions on the magazine? (I assume that I can just find a subscription coupon in an ad in Analog or F&SF.) Thanks --Peter Alfke jpa144@cit-vax until 6/14 (then in limbo, then) alfke.pasa@xerox 7/1 onwards ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 85 09:52 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: The Rocky Horror (not picture) Show >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 85 12:03 EDT >From: Thomas Whitaker > >The stage production ran in London about seven years ago at the >King's Road Theater. The film and stage productions were true to >each other (which came first is not clear to me). However, as a >true fan of the film, I was sorely disappointed by the stage >production. Reason: No audience participation!! Lots of laughter >but not much else. One hilarious exception: When Janet says "Well, >I don't like a man with too many muscles.", a man in the front row >yelled out "I do!" and Frank congratulated him. The other >highlight was at the end of the show when xeroxed copies of the >steps to do the Time Warp showered down from the ceiling. I keep >it pressed in my book of memories. I believe the play ran in London for eight years (as long as JC Superstar ran there), closing at the Comedy Theatre in September of 1980. A few audience participation bits I liked included: The ghouls wandering around the audience before the play began and coming up behind the odd patron to scare them silly. Some people in the audience trying to insult the narrator. He dropped out of the text (but not out of character) long enough to insult them beautifully and then continued with the play. After Rocky's arrival, he shows off his muscles to the audience and lets someone in the first row or two (there was a short runway which extended into the first three rows of seats) squeeze his bicep. When they do, he falls over and whines in pain. When Frank sings "I'm Going Home", he sits on the runway and reaches his hand out to someone in the audience. During one performance, the patron refused to take it. After being refused by that person a second time (and while singing all the while), he tried someone on the other side. That person took his hand. Frank kept on with the song, smiling at the person holding his hand and occasionally turning to give a dirty look at the one who refused. The audience loved it. At the last performance in London (a friend of mine attended), things got rather more out of hand. When Brad was divested of his clothing and given the lab coat to wear, he discovered that someone had sewn the sleeves shut. Somehow he managed to keep going. ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jun 1985 1726 GMT From: WEISMAN, WILLIAM D. Subject: Review of Goonies GOONIES -- a review Goonies (Director: Richard Donner, Exec. Producer: Steven Spielberg) is pretty mindless summer entertainment fare. The film is a fantasy about a group of kids in search of pirate treasure, and requires a significant suspension of disbelief to be enjoyed; otherwise you will lose track of the number of illogical and nonsensical events before the film is half over. It's a movie you can take the kids to, if your kids are old and/or mature enough to handle occasional mild profanity and television-grade violence. Goonies comes off as a cross between Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, and Disneyland's Pirates of the Caribbean ride (Yo ho ho ho, a pirate's life for me!), with a few dashes of the Great Underground Empire thrown in, and a predictable Hollywood ending. It's an entertaining film; the story moves along at a pretty good clip, and there are some scenes containing very funny dialogue and physical comedy. Great Art it isn't. In general I enjoyed the film, but was somewhat disappointed by its lack of originality; many of the plot elements, characters, etc. seem to have been lifted directly from other Spielberg movies. Special effects (by Industrial Light & Magic) are good in most cases and bad in some cases, but nothing really spectacular. I would rate this movie about a 7 on a scale of 10. ** SPOILER WARNING ON ** The story line of Goonies can be summarized thusly: A group of Unbearably Cute Kids (the Goonies) find an old map in the attic showing the location of the fabulous hidden treasure of One Eyed Willie, a famous local pirate. The treasure is hidden in a huge booby-trapped network of caves, tunnels and what not, and No One Who Has Gone Inside Has Ever Returned Alive to Tell the Tale. The neighborhood where the kids live is about to be bulldozed into a golf course by the local Evil Country Club unless the land can be bought back, providing the motivation to go after the treasure. Additional motivation is provided when they accidentally encounter a small family of Evil Mafia Hitfolk near the entrance to the cave, trying to dispose of a body, who naturally have to chase and attempt to kill the kids as potential witnesses. Each Cute Kid has his/her own "hook" for the audience to hang its hat on: one kid is an asthmatic, his brother is a teenage jock, one is overweight, one is a slick-tongued bullshit artist, one is an Asian who invents Rube Goldberg devices (of which there are a plenitude in this film), one is a cheerleader, etc. The kids are assisted in their quest by John Matuszak, part of the Evil Mafia Hitfolk family, who has been locked in the basement watching television for lo these many years, probably because his face resembles that of a Yoda with elephantiasis (complete with ears that wiggle). A superb makeup job. His Raider's sweatshirt is a nice touch, too. His essential goodness becomes evident when the Cute Fat Kid befriends him by giving him a Baby Ruth bar. Most of the film consists of the kids making their way through the underground, narrowly escaping booby traps and Hitfolk, until they find the treasure in the old pirate ship floating in a beautiful blue grotto. There the final confrontation between good guys and bad guys takes place, with the good guys escaping to the outside. Unfortunately, they forget to take any loot with them. Or do they? ** SPOILER WARNING OFF ** Disclaimer: My wife works for Warner Bros. (in DP, not film production) so we have somewhat of a vested interest in the film doing well. That's why I didn't want to post a review of Ladyhawke; besides, Mark Leeper said everything I was going to say anyway. I probably don't even need to worry about Warner Bros.; whenever they run low on cash they just make another Clint Eastwood movie. Bill Weisman (WDWEISMAN@JPL-MILVAX.ARPA) JPL Information Processing Center 540 W. Woodbury Rd. Altadena, CA ------------------------------ From: ukc!csw@topaz.arpa (C.S.Welch) Subject: Buckeroo Banzaii ??? Date: 6 Jun 85 12:24:48 GMT Would someone out there in netland take pity on a poor chap and mail him an explanation of Buckeroo Banzai. I keep seeing it mentioned/quoted, and I take it to be a film or tv series that hasn't arrived on this side of the Atlantic yet. The little bits and pieces that I have been able to pick up sound quite interesting, and my curiosity is now piqued to an unacceptable level. Thanks in advance, Chris Welch, Cranfield Institute, U.K. csw@ukc.uucp ------------------------------ Date: Wed 5 Jun 85 09:11:59-PDT From: Doug Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #192 Two things: A friend of mine recently sold his first novel (and I believe, his first fiction) to Terry Carr for the next series of Ace Specials on the basis of a chapter and an outline. Dave Hartwell has asked him for the same for another novel, so at least in two signficant cases, the chapter and outline, even for a new writer is sufficient. "Crown of Creation" was co-written by Charley Cockey, a SF fan and owner of Fantasy, Etc. in San Francisco. He claims that the quotes from "Re-birth" are all cool. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Jun 85 1236-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #200 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jun 85 1236-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #200 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 7 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 200 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Harrison & Wolfe & Stories Set on Mars, Miscellaneous - D.H. Lawrence & The Problems of SF & SF and Literature ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Sequels Date: 7 Jun 85 03:44:44 GMT >Sometimes a series should have stopped at one. Sometimes not. >I've never heard anyone suggest that Asimov should have stopped >with _Foundation_. Slight correction: Asimov wrote a series, all right, but it didn't start with FOUNDATION, at least not as a novel. He wrote a series of short pieces for magazines that were collected together into the three books, FOUNDATION, FOUNDATION AND EMPIRE, and SECOND FOUNDATION. He didn't even know, probably, when he went from FOUNDATION to FOUNDATION AND EMPIRE. He wouldn't have known where FOUNDATION ended so it is less likely he would have stopped there. Anybody know if it was even Asimov who did the dividing of his stories into the books. I get the impression it wasn't Asimov from things he has said at conventions and in print. I know he says that he did not like the title I, ROBOT when it was chosen for the book of his robot stories. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re:Space Opera - STAR SMASHERS etc. Date: 7 Jun 85 03:30:53 GMT hmmm. Interesting to me that while I am an inveterate lover of what I consider good space opera, I couldn't get past page 19 of STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS before consigning it to the "read or never will be " pile. Yet Harrison is the author of the Stainless Steel Rat Series. I habitually use page one of The Stainless Steel Rat as a hook to ensnare new readers to SF. I hand them the book open to page 1. I say, "As a favor to me, just read this first page. You can stop there if you want to." So far no one has yet ever been able to stop without reading the whole book and then going on from there to the world of Science Fiction. Of course, I don't just do this with everybody, only those I think from other evidence will like SF if they ever try it. "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Still amazed by Wolfe's FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS after 20 Subject: readings... Date: 6 Jun 85 09:59:50 GMT I give up. After going through the book for the twentieth time or so, I still have to admit that Gene Wolfe's THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS is my favorite work of sf, and very possibly my favorite book, period. I have found something new every single time I've read it, which I think is the greatest and most difficult gift an author can make to a reader. On this pass I finally figured out what Number Five's real name is. In retrospect I probably should have guessed it sooner, but that would have taken some of the fun and suspense out of it! Has anyone else had this experience? Awed, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn PS -- If you're a Wolfe fan and haven't figured out who Number Five is, are desperate to know and happen to be going to the Usenix conference, buttonhole me when you see me there and I'll give you a hint. I'm also open to hypotheses about PEACE, NEW SUN and other Wolfe masterpieces... ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Stories set on mars (followup; long) Date: 4 Jun 85 20:44:57 GMT Here is the summary of replies for my request on stories set on mars. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to send me your thoughts -- you shook out a few forgotten stories I'm happy to remember, and pointed me in a couple of places I missed. chuq ***** From ihnp4!pur-ee!weil My all-time favorite set of Mars stories is the Michael Kane trilogy by Michael Moorcock. City of the Beast (Warriors of Mars) Lord of the Spiders (Blades of Mars) Masters of the Pit (Barbarians of Mars) The names in paren's are the original titles which were published under the pen-name of Edward P. Bradbury. ***** From decwrl!muffy@lll-crg Stanley Weinbaum, "A Martian Odyssey" Arthur C. Clarke, "Report on Planet Three" C. L. Moore, "Shambleau" C. L. Moore, "The Tree of Life" John Varley, "In the Hall of the Martian Kings" ***** From decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-miles!chabot if you forget to list Zelazny's "A Rose for Ecclesiastes", SZKB will probably shoot you. It's in many collections. Most of the C. L. Moore's Northwest Smith stories in _Scarlet_Dream_ (Donald M. Grant, 1981) take place on Mars: "Shambleau", "The Tree of Life", "Scarlet Dream", "Dust of the Gods", "The Cold Gray God", "Yvala". But, again, I like Brackett's _The_Coming_of_the_Terrans_ best. It's a volume of short stories, but rather than Moore's adventurer encountering strange and fantastic creatures, Brackett's are stories about earth-people, with their technology, and their interactions with the superficially innocent/docile members of the ancient race of martians; Brackett is more modern, less eerie and weird than Moore or much of Bradbury. "Mars Minus Bisha" is devastating: 'So small a grave did not take long to dig.' _The_Sword_of_Rhiannon_ is also by Leigh Brackett and also about Mars. Oh, and the Walter R. Brooks books are _Freddy_and_the_Men_from_ Mars_ and _Freddy_and_the_Baseball_Team_from_Mars_ (same Martians in both). ***** From ihnp4!mtgzz!daemon Arnold, Edwin L. Gulliver of Mars Asimov, Isaac Martian Way Blish, James Welcome to Mars Bradbury, Edward P. Barbarians of Mars Bradbury, Edward P. Blades of Mars Bradbury, Edward P. Warriors of Mars Bradbury, Ray Martian Chronicles Bretnor, Reginald Spear of Mars Brown, Fredric Martians, Go Home Brunner, John Born Under Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Chessmen of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Fighting Man of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Gods of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice John Carter of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Mastermind of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Princess of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Swords of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Synthetic Men of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Thuvia, Maid of Mars Burroughs, Edgar Rice Warlord of Mars Carter, Lin Man Who Loved Mars Chandler, A. Bertram Alternate Martians (M-129*) Charkin, Paul Light of Mars Clarke, Arthur C. Prelude to Mars [PS,SM+]= Clarke, Arthur C. Sands of Mars Claudy, Carl H. Mystery Men of Mars= Del Rey, Lester Marooned on Mars Dick, Philip K. Martian Time-Slip Farmer, Philip Jose Jesus on Mars Gordon, Rex First on Mars Grinnell, David Martian Missile (D-465) Heinlein, Robert A. Podkayne of Mars Hipolito, Jane Mars, We Love You Judd, Cyril Outpost Mars Kline, Otis Adelbert Outlaws of Mars Kline, Otis Adelbert Swordsman of Mars Long, Frank Belknap Mars Is My Destination Moskowitz, Sam Under the Moons of Mars= O'Neill, Scott Martian Sexpot Petaja, Emil Caves of Mars (M-133) Russell, Eric Frank Men, Martians, and Machines Serviss, Garrett P. Invasion Mars [Edison's] Sharkey, Jack Secret Martians (D-471) Sohl, Jerry Mars Monopoly (D-162) Tubb, E. C. C.O.D. Mars (H-40) Weinbaum, Stanley G. Martian Odyssey Wollheim, Donald A. Secret of the Martian Moons Woodcott, Keith Martian Sphinx Wyndham, John Sleepers of Mars Wyndham, John Stowaway to Mars Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ***** From seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo Try Arthur Clarke's "Prelude to Mars"...it's entertaining if you don't mind it being dated.... ***** From fortune!allegra!convex!ctvax!trsvax!wkb My all time favorite is the classic "Martian Odyssey". There are some other good stories that have scenes on Mars (like "Gateway"), but the only others that I can remember are in "The Martian Chronicals". ***** From ames!barry 1) Martian Chronicles Bradbury 2) Red Planet Heinlein 3) A Rose For Ecclesiastes Zelazny 4) High Weir Delany 5) A Martian Odyssey Weinbaum 6) Open to Me, My Sister Farmer (aka My Sister's Brother) 7) The John Carter series Burroughs 8) Man Plus Pohl 9) The Rolling Stones Heinlein 10) Barbarians of Mars "Edward Bradbury" (Michael Moorcock) 11) The Martian Way Asimov 12) Jesus On Mars Farmer 13) War of the Worlds Wells 14) Shambleau C. L. Moore 15) The Crystal Egg Wells 16) A Journey to Mars Gustavus W. Pope 17) Edison's Conquest of Mars Garrett P. Serviss 18) The Forgotten Man of Space P. Shuyler Miller 19) Old Faithful Raymond Z. Gallun 20) Out of the Silent Planet C.S. Lewis 21) Sands of Mars Clarke 22) Martian Time-Slip Dick 23) Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldrich Dick 24) The Space Machine Christopher Priest 25) The Martian Inca Ian Watson 26) In the Hall of the Martian Kings Varley ***** From decwrl!decvax!yale!sharp I really enjoyed the books Heinlein set on Mars. These were among his juveniles; some that spring to mind are Red Planet, part of Rolling Stones, and Podykane of Mars (a little). There are, of course, many others. I liked The Sands of Time by Arthur C. Clarke (I'm not, embarrassingly enough, totally positive about the title). Asimov had a good set of stories, including The Martian Way. ***** From seismo!aplvax!osiris!rob@maryland Larry Niven has a few Mars stories in his Known Space history: Eye of an Octopus How the Heroes Die At the Bottom of a Hole and another that isn't connected to anything else, The Hole Man. ***** From seismo!mcvax!ukc!drb@ukc.ac.uk I liked the book by Robert Heinlein "Red Planet", which was, suprisingly, set on Mars. ***** From ihnp4!burl!geoff Red Planet -- Heinlein (of course) From the misfiring synapses of: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: petfe!clarise@topaz.arpa (Clarise Samuels) Subject: Re: what do _you_ think of sf? Date: 5 Jun 85 20:37:47 GMT D(avid) H(erbert) Lawrence, English novelist, 1885-1930, is not a her. ------------------------------ From: duke!ndd@topaz.arpa (Ned Danieley) Subject: Re: A SHORT RESPONSE Date: 5 Jun 85 14:43:12 GMT dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes: >4) I realize that what I say is my opinion, and I am surprised at > the number of people who have seen fit to inform me of this > obvious fact. Lighten up. At least I have attempted to support > my opinion with examples and logic. > >5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van > Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is > bad art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them is > to lump greatness with mediocrity. Otherwise, there is no basis > for *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which is > incredibly egocentric. I think that the thing that bothers me is the dogmatic tone of your articles, all of which sound much like your point #5. I don't see how you can say that there is good art and bad art; that seems to me a little too strong. It may be your opinion, but where are the examples and logic: how do you *know* that Norman Rockwell isn't superior to Van Gogh? Maybe if you would lighten up, some of your critics would too. Ned Danieley duke!ndd ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Science Fiction and Literature Date: 4 Jun 85 14:05:50 GMT There has been a great deal of flame recently on the subject of the literary merits (or lack thereof) of science fiction. Unfortunately, most of this has been of the form "I like these authors and don't like those authors". To try to avoid that I will avoid mentioning particular authors entirely in this submission (although the temptation is at some points hard to resist). I am not going to attempt to compare the literary merits of "science fiction" and "mainstream literature"; my knowledge of the latter is too small. Instead I wish to concentrate on the comparison of science fiction as viewed by its fans (typified by the Hugo awards), and science fiction as viewed by critics from outside the field. The striking thing about this comparison is that there is practically no overlap between what the two groups like. Essentially, there are two possible explanations for this: either one group has no taste and likes junk, or different but reasonable standards are being applied by the two. I believe that the latter is the case. In particular, I believe there is an element present in the science fiction preferred by the fans, which the critics either do not recognize or do not value. This element is _world_building_. By this I mean the invention of a (relatively) complete, believable background for the story. This may mean any or all of an alien world, alien creatures, speculative societies, or created sciences and technologies. The key word here is *invented*; mainstream fiction has backgrounds every bit as complete and believable (indeed more so, on average), but they are not invented. Thus they do not require the creative effort that good science fiction requires. I believe the critics, as a class, are unaware of this dimension to science fiction. They thus tend to judge science fiction backgrounds by the standards appropriate for non-science fiction; their verisimilitude and lack of intrusion on the story. But these criteria precisely exclude the more inventive works of science fiction! An alien background can hardly be true-to-life (at least life-as-we-know-it), and by the same token, a fair amount of the author's effort must go into conveying that background. (Of course, good science fiction authors are good at conveying that background with minimal intrusion, but it will still stick out more than in the mainstream.) Now, is this an accurate description of what sf fans value? Or do they, as has been alleged, prefer rehashings of the same old tired themes, and infinite sequels? I submit that, based on the Hugo awards, they do indeed prefer inventive world-building. I can think of only one recent Hugo winner which is in any way a sequel (and whatever you may think of that one, _Foundations_Edge_, it is clearly a special case (remember, no names, please)). As to the quality of the world-building in them, that must be left for each individual to judge; but I think a critical reading will bear out my point. A final point -- there is an important distinction between a series and a set of sequels, both of which are proliferating in sf today. A sequel is written after the fact, to take advantage of a good thing, and is rarely much good. A series is a planned single work in multiple volumns, and should properly be judged as a whole. There is one good reason for writing series in sf, which is that a single volumn is often inadequate to convey a well built world, particularly when the author is attempting to produce superior characters and plot as well as a superior world. (These efforts are rarely all successful, but ...) I am Frank Adams, at Multi-mate International in Hartford. I'm quite new to the net, and don't really know what the address is here (I'll figure it out soon). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Jun 85 1258-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #201 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jun 85 1258-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #201 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 8 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 201 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (4 msgs) & Panshin & Paxson & Schenck, Miscellaneous - Space Operas & Criticism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rayssd!m1b@topaz.arpa (M. Joseph Barone) Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison Date: 4 Jun 85 21:16:51 GMT > Hemdale Film Corporation and HARLAN ELLISON are pleased to > announce that they have resolved their dispute regarding the > motion picture The Terminator and Hemdale Film Corporation > acknowledges the works of HARLAN ELLISON. [In the ad, "Harlan > Ellison" is in bold face] > > Does anyone know what this is about. > > Reply to me, as I'm not on sf-lovers. I do not know how to reply to ARPA nodes so everyone is forced to read this. If someone could relay it to him, thanks. To everyone else, sorry. Ellison stated that the idea of 'The Terminator' came from two episodes he wrote for 'Outer Limits'. The episode names elude me but the plots were: 1) the soldier from the future, Quallo Kaprikni (sic?), and 2) Bob Culp as a robot from the future with a glass hand ('Demon with a Glass Hand'?). He therefore sued for copyright infringement and won. Joe Barone, {allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b Raytheon Co, Submarine Signal Div., Box 330, Portsmouth, RI 02871 ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (High Anxiety Workstations) Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog Date: 5 Jun 85 20:30:56 GMT > This is a midnight/college-circuit cult classic, and I think > deservedly so: the somewhat tongue-in-cheek post-holocaust > scenario, the talking dog (who for my money is the best character > in the movie, Don Johnson [so that's who that was] > notwithstanding), the decidedly motley crew led by Jason Robards > that thrives underground, and a menacing robot named Larry(?) -- > folks, this is, bizarre as it is, one of the funniest movies I've > ever seen. And that classic line at the end: one couldnt think of > a more apt ending! I would rate this a must-see. While the dog is intentionally the smartest and most worthwhile character in the movie, the ending line is barbaric and abominable. I believe the author of the short story shares this opinion--it ain't in the story. L S Chabot decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison Date: 6 Jun 85 13:46:24 GMT > Ellison stated that the idea of 'The Terminator' came from > two episodes he wrote for 'Outer Limits'. The episode names elude > me but the plots were: 1) the soldier from the future, Quallo > Kaprikni (sic?), and 2) Bob Culp as a robot from the future with a > glass hand ('Demon with a Glass Hand'?). He therefore sued for > copyright infringement and won. > > Joe Barone This seems a little thin. The producers would have had to copied a lot more than the IDEA from Ellison for him to win a copyright suit. Ideas are not copyrightable, only the particular expression of those ideas are. If you could sue a writer for stealing an idea, they could sue every writer in existence. When was the last time you saw a TV show or a movie with an original plot? A writer has to be very good just to come up with an interesting variation of an old idea. I enjoyed the Terminator, even though I couldn't find a single element in the plot that hadn't been used before. As Siskel and Ebert pointed out, it actually works better as romance than Science Fiction. 'I came across time for you, Sarah.' Heck, most women today would feel lucky if they could find a guy that would stop off at the cleaners to pick up their laundry. :-> ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!esco@topaz.arpa (Michael Esco) Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog Date: 7 Jun 85 01:22:06 GMT >> There's a movie appearing 4 times on The Movie Channel (at odd >> times...VCR people take note) called A Boy and His Dog. It is a >> marvelous post-WWIII I told a friend once that I could never marry a woman that couldn't sit through `A Boy and His Dog.' He replied "You know, you're going to be a bachelor for a long time." Well, in that case I'd like a dog like Tiger (Blood). Even if he can't talk. That dog could display more emotion through his dirty, fuzzy face than could 9 out of 10 Hollywood starlets. Michael Esco Boeing Aerospace ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Sequels Date: 6 Jun 85 14:12:57 GMT Speaking of sequels did Alexis Panshin ever get around to writing 'The Galactic Pantograph'? This was supposed to the last of a quartet of novels. Am I never going find out why Robert Villiers is trying to kill his brother Anthony? Is Tony going to make it to Nashua for the weddings? Arghhhh!!! When a writer sets out to write a set of novels, as opposed to a continuing series, to only exceptable excuse for not finishing it is death. And even then he should leave a plot outline with the executor of his estate. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 7 Jun 1985 08:14:03-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: Diana Paxson Thanks to everyone that responded to my inquiry of Diana Paxson. I had no idea I'd been missing out on so much. (and I thought I'd been reading quite a bit lately.... hmmm) Gaylene ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Any more by this author? Date: 5 Jun 85 17:14:23 GMT pugh@topaz.ARPA writes: > I just re-read a great story and wondered if anyone knew of >anything else by the author. The story is "The Morphology of the >Kirkham Wreak" by Hilbert Schenck. It appears in The Best SF of >the year #8, edited by Terry Carr, and the credits list it from >Fantasy and Science Fiction, Sept. 1978. > Does anyone know where I can find more by Mr. Schenck, and is >it up to snuff? Hilbert Schenck has published a number of stories in Fantasy and Science Fiction over the last few years, so you might check the annual "Best of Fantasy and Science Fiction" collection (I assume it's still being published on a yearly basis; I don't read the anthologies because I subscribe to the magazine). He seems to consistently produce engaging, well-plotted stories, and I've enjoyed everything I've read by him. If anyone knows that he's published a novel or has one in the works, I'd be interested in hearing about it. -- Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 05 Jun 85 22:41:25 PDT (Wed) From: Alastair Milne > My personal definition of space opera does not include the > built-in put-downs being promulgated about the net - probably by > people who would put down conventional opera, if they could. This leaves me with no real idea what you do consider to be space opera -- merely that there are parts, unspecified, of other definitions that you don't like. As for conventional opera, it is a very mixed bag. There are many places where a sharp word is in order. > Therefore, my definition is quite able to include "The Foundation" > series. You see, I space opera. And I the > Foundation series. Perhaps Asimov is Wagner and the Foundation is > the Ring. I like Asimov enormously, and Clarke. I consider them two of the leaders of the field. Foundation is a wonderful work, with few equals, and I'm delighted that it's still growing. But Asimov is not Wagner, and by no means is Foundation the Ring. Kilimanjaro is spectacular as Kilimanjaro: it doesn't have to be Everest. And Wagner's Ring is closer to Everest. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Criticism Date: 4 Jun 85 21:54:21 GMT BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA writes: >Bill Ingodly writes: I sincerely hope this is a typographical error, since I'm sure most mature posters to the net are offended by 'humor' that pokes fun at people's names or racial/physical characteristics. Please take care to get people's names right in the future, since errors of this sort can lead to bad feelings. Catch my drift? >> In what way are the best writers in SF more numerous or better >> writers than these mainstream people? We're talking superior >> craftsmanship here, things like real dialogue by real people, >> little things I find infrequently in much SF. > >I've recently read _Invisible_Cities_ (Calvino); saying that it had >either characters or dialogue is an act of considerable generosity. >(It is virtually pure structure, more like an abstract painting >than a novel; recommended, but *NOT* for personality.) Didion's >_A_Book_Of_Common_Prayer_ was somewhat better, in that the dialogue >captured the characters -- but if the characters were real, they >were not especially sane; neither did many of their actions make >sense. They were more plausible before I started then after I >finished. > >Other books, further in my past, had realer dialogue and >characters; but it does not seem strange to me that the two I've >read most recently don't. In at least one other response prior to this one, I discussed my overstressing realism in dialogue and characterization in my posting. As I pointed out in that response and in at least one private mail exchange on this topic, many excellent contemporary writers are unconcerned with realism in these senses. Invisible Cities is an example, but you might make a case that Calvino's working at the margins of fiction as we ordinarily understand the term. Fiction, poetry, realism, dadaism, etc. are all categories created mainly for critical or didactic purposes and many modern writers have worked deliberately at the margins of these categories, in part to illuminate their artificiality. Joan Didion is an example of a writer whose fiction is closer to a 'classic' understanding of what the novel is about. Few SF writers, it seems to me, work consciously to redefine or subvert the nature of their own tools (i.e., language and fiction itself) in the way that certain non-SF writers like Calvino and at least some of the other names on my list do. Most SF attempts a more or less realistic presentation of events, although certain techniques of the early 20th century avant-garde like stream of consciousness and nonlinear temporality are quite common (notice, please, that I said MOST SF, not all SF). Fiction that's structured as strangely as Calvino's Invisible Cities, or (perhaps a better example) his If On A Winter's Night A Traveller, is quite scarce in the SF genre. I used realistic presentation of dialogue and characterization in my argument because (rightly or wrongly) I believe many SF writers, including Roger Zelazny, are attempting to present characters and situations in a realistically convincing manner. Furthermore, my recollection of Lord of Light is that it dealt with a fantastic world, but that the main characters in it were presented in an entirely realistic fashion (note for example the 'scientific' explanation in the book of the origin of the gods and their powers). In this sense, your invocation of other contemporary writers' deliberate subversion of realism is beside the point, since what I'm saying is that I believe that Zelazny was in certain senses (but not all) attempting realism and that he failed. And I fully realize I haven't read the book in ten years, and intend to do so (this point was also made in another of my recent postings on this subject, which you may care to read). Please note also that I invoked Zelazny and Ellison to make a point: that there are many so-called mainstream writers who are AT LEAST as good as the best SF writers; I just don't personally think Zelazny and Ellison are the best SF writers that can be invoked, but many other people who post to this group do. Since no one has directly addressed the central issues in my original response, I can only conclude that in the future I'll have to attack only those writers who EVERYONE will agree is bad so no one gets so riled up that s/he misses my point. >> because Zelazny doesn't really believe in these characters. I >> challenge the best of you out there to care about a character and >> bring him or her to life for your readers when you yourself have >> no faith in your own characters or any real interest in them >> other than as devices to carry the plot along! > >I can't read Zelazny's mind, except such of it as he broadcasts. >It seems to me that he does care about his characters. Ignoring >internal evidence in his books, he writes stories about the same >characters and _doesn't_ try to publish them -- except once, in a >short story collection which I can't find [help?], when he >published one. This doesn't quite sound like a sign of intense >apathy to me. Again, Mahasamatman strikes me as a more believable >character than any in the Calvino, Didion, or Elkin I've read >recently. So we disagree on Zelazny. Chacun a son gout. The point I was trying to make in all of this is simply that Steve Brust was wrong when he said most of the best modern writers are writing in SF; you'd seem to agree with me on that point. I have nothing against Mr. Ellison and Zelazny; in the past year I've purchased both Madwand and Shatterday in hardcover and read them both. I don't feel, however, that they're the best people in the SF field, a claim I'm sure other posters to this group would dispute. I picked on Zelazny and Ellison because they're not my personal favorites; ANY SF writers I'd chosen to criticize would have been SOMEONE'S favorites, so no matter what I said I was bound to be a villain in someone's book. >> "...Some call me Sam, and most call me ham, but you can call me >> Jim, or you can call me Slim..." Is this believable or well-done? > >If you had read _Lord_Of_Light_ recently, I would flame at you for >not checking your parody-quotation. Sam doesn't say it; it's >description and thus believable. It appears in the first and last >chapters. Things being as they are, it foreshadows and summarizes >the novel, sketching in a few sentences Sam's personality and the >important conflicts and their resolution, and placing the novel in >a frame. Very well-done. I found it rather silly and not well done at all. I admitted I hadn't read Lord of Light recently, and the quote is clearly a parody of the original. My parody DOES capture my own reaction to the original passage, however, which I found obtrusive and unrealistic. By the way, I read Lord of Light twice at the time, so it's not like my recollections are based on a cursory skimming of the book. >> Lift your heads out of the SF ghetto, people... > >I hereby allow you, or encourage you, to stop reading SF. Let me see ... anybody who doesn't agree with YOU and who thinks a writer YOU like has certain shortcomings as a stylist shouldn't read SF? Why do you find criticism of your personal favorites threatening? Perhaps you're objecting to my reference to an SF 'ghetto.' It was (again: I'm getting sick of referring back to the posting that started all of this) in response to Steve Brust's claim that most of the best writers working today are in SF, a statement I've heard from other SF fans and writers which I take as evidence of a lack of knowledge of and/or interest in fiction written outside the narrow bounds of the genre. Ghetto was perhaps the wrong word, since it implies an external cause for the ghettoization of its members; the insularity of some SF fans is self-imposed. Oh, yes, I've been reading SF since the age of seven (1952), so I resent your 'encouraging' me to stop reading SF. -- Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 7 Jun 85 1318-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #202 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Jun 85 1318-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #202 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 8 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 202 Today's Topics: Books - Footfall (5 msgs), Television - Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - Criticism & Perry Rhodan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Jun 85 11:49:27 CDT From: Mike Caplinger Subject: FOOTFALL review (mild spoiler) N-P ranking: rather better than LUCIFER'S HAMMER, considerably worse than MOTE. Short synopsis: LUCIFER'S HAMMER meets John W. Campbell's THE ULTIMATE WEAPON. FOOTFALL is a good example of the invasion-from-space defeated by spur-of-the-moment super-science subgenre. It's considerably deeper than most of the earlier examples of the subgenre (like the Campbell cited above), but it boils down to than in the end. There is also an element of weird alien psychology, but to me the Moties were lots more interesting. There is somewhat less suspense generated about what the aliens' real motivations are in FOOTFALL than there was in MOTE. Most of the book reads somewhat like HAMMER; there is the same sense of "falling civilization" problems with food, transport, and the social order, though things don't get nearly as bad as in HAMMER, except for the constant threat of alien attack. It's also vaguely reminiscent of THE JUPITER THEFT (author forgotten, sorry), particularly the scenes on the alien ship. In short, I enjoyed it, and is has some nice, even very nice moments (the bit about science fiction authors being used as military advisors is great, and you can easily spot Heinlein!) but it isn't in my must-read catagory. You might want to wait for the paperback. - Mike ps. It also manages to avoid most of the preachiness about atomic power that permeates HAMMER. If anything, the preachiness here is in our failure to industrialize space (by about 1990, the time of the book, the Russians have a large moon base and refuse to let us expand our ~5-man base, and we don't have a space station and they do), and there are numerous pro-space weapons arguments, as we don't have the weapons by 1990 and need them pretty badly.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 85 08:00 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: Footfall - new Niven and Pournelle I finished Footfall, the new book by Niven and Pournelle, a couple of days ago. It's an alien-invasion-of-earth novel and quite well done. It's kind of curious that there have been quite a few of those lately: Gerold's Chtorr books and Battlefield Earth (even though the invasion had already taken place) come to mind right off. Anyone who has read any of their previous novels will recognize the style and their method of story telling. The first 100 pages or so deal with introducing the characters and setting up the story and the last 400 pages deal with the actual invasion. As expected from a Niven-Pournelle book, the aliens have their own complex society that differs from ours in several ways. One of the few things that bothered me about the book was the aliens' assumption that their inbred customs would be the same as ours (the alien's idea of surrender, for example, is significantly different than ours). That's the only nit I have to pick with the novel. Needless to say, this is hardly a review - call it a recommendation. If you like alien invasion stories, Niven and Pournelle stories, or both, you will like Footfall. ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Cover Art Date: 7 Jun 85 04:13:05 GMT friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) writes: > How many of you have seen the dust jacket on the new Larry > Niven/Jerry Pournelle book "Footfall"? It is excellent. I even > recognized the alien from the advance description I had of it. I disagree. The Fithp are the size of baby elephants, not full grown ones. And there is *no* fi' carrying a teddy bear in the whole novel, not even Harpanet. (If none of that makes sense, read the novel.) At least it wasn't giant chickens. (Not yet, anyway. Right, Alan? Right, Dale?) -Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: FOOTFALL Date: 7 Jun 85 07:37:23 GMT lindy@vienna.UUCP (John Lindquist) writes: >I just recently purchased the book FOOTFALL by Niven and Pournelle. >I haven't seen anyone praise or critize the book. Q&D non-review (since my real review is promised to a zine elsewhere...) I'm halfway through footfall (500 pages, more or less) and I'm enjoying it. Well thought out, well plotted, decent characters, and pretty cleanly edited. A lot of work has gone into this book, and it is at least as good as Mote in God's Eye, which I consider their best collaboration. If they don't blow the ending, they have a real winner. After a string of blah to worse books, they are definitely back on the right track. Hope they keep up the good work. (See, Jerry, I told you I'd keep an open mind on the next one. Good job!) From the misfiring synapses of: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: vienna!lindy@topaz.arpa (John Lindquist) Subject: FOOTFALL Date: 4 Jun 85 16:02:58 GMT I just recently purchased the book FOOTFALL by Niven and Pournelle. I haven't seen anyone praise or critize the book. The two authors are coming sometime in June to the Bay area for a autograph session at a local bookstore. My question is: Is it tacky to bring a different book to be autographed rather than the one the session is for? As you can infer from my question I didn't think the book was "The greatest......" (a reference to the front cover blurb). However I would like to get their autographs. john lindquist ucbvax!olympus!lindy ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. Date: 5 Jun 85 16:15:55 GMT > The series, in my opinion, relied to heavily on special effects > and did not concentrate on the characters and plot as heavily as > they should have to make it a very good series. The problem with Space 1999 was (as is usually the problem w/ t.v.) a lack of good scripts. From what I know, lack of scripts usually comes from lack of time to develop the scripts. Lord Lew Grade is famed for quickie Sci Fi productions. Lord LOW grade :-) I remember an abominable series (which I think they got some of the sets for 1999 from) in which the premise was another bunch of aliens out to conquer earth. The series was named something like UFO, and was set in the 1980's. The bad taste must be somewhere in the back of your mind. > If handled correctly the series could have become a cult series > (almost as much as STAR TREK).But it was very badly handled and > then to compound matters the show brought in Fred Freiberger to > produce the show I think it was more Low Grade's fault. Look at his track record with earlier productions. > (after he had cocked up the third series of STAR TREK),and they > bought in a shape changing alien????? I dunno about having an alien regular. I seem to remember a series in the 1960's that did quite well with an alien regular. The shape changing bit became the catch all escape for the show, though. (When in doubt, Maya can bail us out.) They abused the character. A MUCH more limited shape changer might not have hurt too badly, although I never did quite understand how a normal sized woman can convert her mass into a bumble bee and then into a ten foot alien and then back to herself again. > This really killed of the series in alot of fans eyes and did not > help encourage new people to watch and like the series. Again, I think it was the lousy scripts that abused the character that had more to do with the death of 1999. It was a pity that the show didn't live up to it's potential, but any time a series takes the easy way out (gadgets and bug eyed monsters instead of good scripts) the same seems to happen. ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Criticism Date: 5 Jun 85 19:37:49 GMT I was going to attempt a sort of point-by-point response, but what the hell --- instead, I'll just try to write a cogent essay-let in reply to the whole recent mess. The point that I think has been offered is that SF writing is terrifically derivative and (somehow) less ``good'' than mainstream writing. Just to warn everyone ahead of time, I don't feel that this is really true: Sturgeon's Law applies to everything, mainstream or not. Furthermore, SF has the real advantage that it still is a commercial medium, and therefore has (so far) been largely spared the sterility that mars most ``literary'' fiction. There is bad fiction in SF and Fantasy, no denying: I hate endless hobbits with fake ID's as much as anyone. And series books are REALLY beginning to bug me. But I still feel that the proportion of good fiction in SF and Fantasy is *at least as high* and probably higher, than I have seen in mainstream or literary fiction. Those of you who are immediatly going to flame me because I believe that most mainstrean and literary (e.g. _Paris_Review_) fiction is sterile, go ahead; all I'm going to do from here on is explain what I'm talking about and make an argument in favor of my point of view. (flame point) When I say ``sterile,'' just what am I talking about? Good question, and one in which to some extent I'm going to try to avoid answering. The reason I want to avoid answering the question is that I believe it is as unanswerable as the question ``Just what is it you mean when you say the word `red'?'' I believe this sterility is directly perceptible by anyone who has learned to read fiction at all. Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were never able to become engrossed in the story? Where you were always conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book? Then I believe you were reading something that I call sterile. Now, note that two different people would believe different things sterile. I find it hard not to be conscious of ...reading ... the ... book... (I promise I won't do it again) when I have read Moby Dick. In my case, this is for a paradoxical reason: the sentences are so pretty, so nicely rounded and fully packed, that I find myself admiring them rather than falling into the book. Now that may be a result of my partially-trained ``writer's ear'' but it is none-the-less so. I find it impossible to read Moby Dick for pleasure. I very much doubt that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- or if it is, it is only because years of study have made the reader so familiar with the language involved (which means learning how to handle puns across several european languages which are written in the form of euphonic Scotch telegrams) that this language barrier is no longer a problem. I believe that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is sterile. Bill has mentioned several times the various writers who are involved in meta-fiction: Calvino has been prominent. I don't feel that meta-fiction is *inherently* sterile: _Cosmicomics_ is an example of a break with conventional ficiton which I don't think is sterile at all. However, writing meta-fiction, writing fiction in which conventions are challenged, is a risky business: it's hard for the reader to co-operate in understanding the dream. Calvino sems to manage; for me John Barth does not. It could be argued that I'm saying ``then good fiction is just what you like.'' And in fact I am -- but the word ``just'' should be deleted from the sentence. I am in fact claiming that good fiction is fiction in which a clear and strong dream is created, which is formed out of the agreement between the writer and the reader to take these little black marks and turn them into a vivid dream, a way of creating clear memories of something that didn't happen, or that happened to someone else. I think anything that does this is likely to be fun to read, something that is ``just'' what I like. Anything that does not make this work may be in some sense admirable (as I have long admired the creative effort and verbal trickery of _F'sW_) but it is simply not good fiction. Now, how does this all apply to SF, and the discussion that has been going on? The essential question to me is: does the proposed fiction create this vivid dream? Clearly, the first proponent of the ``SF is a ghetto and it should be, 'cause it's bad'' theory doesn't feel so. However, this does not mean that it is bad for everyone: perhaps this is just a person who shouldn't really be (mainly) an SF reader. But the idea originally proposed was that we who prefer to read SF should get our minds out of the ghetto and find out what *real* fiction is like. However, my experience with what has been propounded as ``literary'' is that, for me at least, the ``literary'' fiction is nearly completely sterile. The few ideas that are proposed are puerile or dull, the characters are often people who I wouldn't want to talk to in person, and the situations are usually intolerably banal. I can't make the dream vivid: the author's style, choice of words, non-standard sentence structure or simple lack of identification with his own characters have made it impossible for me. The usual response to this has been an essentially elitist one: ``if you were a literary sophisticate, you wouldn't find it so.'' Well, maybe so: but my experience with English Lit people has been that becoming a ``literary sophisticate'' really means ``learn the code words and accepted interpretations. Learn to fit in.'' Perhaps those of us that believe that there is more good writing in SF than in mainstream are simply near-illiterates, as the more strenuous pro-literary voices seem to have claimed. On the other hand, maybe we really are seeing the Emperor's bare ass, shivering in the cold that critical acclaim can't keep out. A postscript: Bill Ingogly has mentioned _Lord_of_Light_ as an example of SF that he disliked, especially mentioning the ``he was called Mahasamatman, and Binder,... but he preferred to be called just Sam'' section as being a part of the book that he especially disliked. The particular comparison he's used was to that awful ``you can call me Jim, or you can call me...'' comedian. Well, okay, clearly this business broke the clarity of the dream for Bill. However, as a long-time student of the various sutras and storys of the life of the Buddha, I really enjoyed it. That was a very nicely used parody or pastiche of a stylized phrase that happens over and over again in Sutras and in Vedic literature, and really gave me the feel that this was a story in the Eastern sort of world that the book is meant to evoke. If indeed the measure of ``literature'' is the sophistication required to read it, perhaps -- just perhaps -- the sophistication that was lacking was not Zelazny's. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: cstvax!bobg@topaz.arpa (Bob Gray ERCC) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 13 Jun 85 03:57:35 GMT The perry Rhodan series went up to edition 132 in the translation from german into english (or rather american). No more have been translated since that I know about. I read all of them when they were first published. (Just a temporary mental condition.) The interest was lost in the British edition much sooner than that. As I remember the film was originaly made in german and dubbed (very badly) into english. I have never seen it but I understand it has been shown on the other side of the water. Bob Gray ERCC ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Jun 85 0939-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #203 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jun 85 0939-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #203 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 203 Today's Topics: Books - Aldair & Schenck & Wolfe & Fantasy Recommendations, Films - James Bond, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: ALICE THROUGH THE NEEDLE'S EYE Date: 7 Jun 85 22:35:39 GMT ALICE THROUGH THE NEEDLE'S EYE by Gilbert Adair Dutton, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper There was only one Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, but that didn't stop others from writing passable Sherlock Holmes pastiches. There was only one Lewis Carroll, but now someone else has attempted an Alice pastiche--and done an acceptable job. While it's obvious that it's not Carroll, this is a reasonable imitation. Parts of it are Carrollesque, and it's only when taken as a whole that you realize that it doesn't fit together quite as neatly, or contain quite as many puns, as Carroll's work did. Unfortunately, it's difficult to tell the plot without ruining the book (at least partially), so I'll just say, if you liked Carroll's "Alice" books, try this one. (The illustrations are nice too.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 7 Jun 1985 23:25:33-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Hilbert Schenck > From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA (Jon Pugh) > I just re-read a great story and wondered if anyone knew of > anything else by the author. The story is "The Morphology of the > Kirkham Wreak" by Hilbert Schenck. It appears in The Best SF of > the year #8, edited by Terry Carr, and the credits list it from > Fantasy and Science Fiction, Sept. 1978. > > Does anyone know where I can find more by Mr. Schenck, and is it > up to snuff? Glad to see another Schenck (pronounced "skenk", btw, rather than "shenk") fan. My first Schenck story was "Battle of the Abaco Reefs", which was nominated for a Hugo Award, and I've enjoyed his work since. Some of his stuff is fair to middlin', some of it *very* good. The two novels are a bit weaker than his short fiction, but still worth reading. Following is a bibliography, first appearances only. I don't have enough time to wade through my "best of" or other anthologies to look for reprints. "Three Days at the End of the World" F&SF (Sep 77) * "The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreck" F&SF (Sep 78) * "The Battle of the Abaco Reefs" F&SF (Jun 79) * "Wave Rider" CHRYSALIS 5 * (ed. Roy Torgeson) "Bouyant Ascent" F&SF (Mar 80) * "The Theology of Water" PERPETUAL LIGHT (ed. Alan Ryan) "Hurricane Claude" F&SF (Apr 83) "The Geometry of Narrative" ANALOG (Aug 83) "Steam Bird" (serial) F&SF (Apr-May 84) "Silicon Muse" F&SF (Sep 84) "Send Me a Kiss by Wire" F&SF (Apr 85) WAVE RIDER (Timescape, 1980) collection (includes stories above marked "*") AT THE EYE OF THE OCEAN (Timescape, 1981) novel A ROSE FOR ARMAGEDDON (Timescape, 1982) novel condensed in SCIENCE FICTION DIGEST (Sep/Oct 82) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Wolfe's FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS Date: 7 Jun 85 19:22:51 GMT donn@utah-gr.UUCP (Donn Seeley) writes: >I give up. After going through the book for the twentieth time or >so, I still have to admit that Gene Wolfe's THE FIFTH HEAD OF >CERBERUS is my favorite work of sf, and very possibly my favorite >book, period. I have found something new every single time I've >read it, which I think is the greatest and most difficult gift an >author can make to a reader. On this pass I finally figured out >what Number Five's real name is. In retrospect I probably should >have guessed it sooner, but that would have taken some of the fun >and suspense out of it! Has anyone else had this experience? The Fifth Head of Cerberus is also close to being my favorite SF work, although Lem's Solaris and certain other works by other authors are also contenders. It's an infinitely rich and rewarding book, but reading Wolfe is definitely work. You've certainly beat me on the number of readings; I've read it three times. It's a book I recommend to anyone I talk to about SF. Wolfe's short stories are also first-rate; check out The Death of Dr. Island And Other Stories And Other Stories. Actually, I can't think of anything he's written that I haven't enjoyed, including the mainstream novel Peace (at least it appears to be mainstream). At the risk of starting more flames in the group on quality and SF (:-), my opinion is that Fifth Head of Cerberus is his best work, but I've only read the Book of the New Sun once so I haven't really gotten into it. I'd be interested in hearing from other people in the group on F. H. of C; does anyone else share our high opinion of this book? -- Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 85 10:30:53 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Other Good Fantasy Recommendations and thoughts As long as we're posting our favorite good fantasy recommendations: RIDDLE OF STARS TRILOGY, by Patricia McKillip (The Riddle Master of Hed, Heir of Sea and Fire, Harpist in the Wind) My personal opinion is this is one of the best works around, period; in any case, it is good stuff. Several notable aspects distinguish it from most of the other fantasy around (i.e., the Tolkein clones and other lesser questies): o Conflict NOT between good and evil. Rare in a fantasy with industrial-strength conflict. It's us vs them, but not a moral (or religious) issue. o Strong female characters. The middle volume in particular. o Characters in a fantasy cosmos who are neither cute nor cardboard. Even in Lord of the Rings you get the feeling that everything is a setpiece; that the nature of the characters, the mythic structure, etc., forces every word and act to be exactly what you get. (It's well done. This is not a criticism.) In RoSt I have much more sense of real people, who periodically surprised their author by doing something completely different from what she had intended. They also exhibit much more adult emotions and passions and subtleties. o Novel and constrained magics. Lots of neat things that I haven't seen elsewhere (no spoilers here!), without the excess of the sort that has killed off Larry Niven's Known Space series, as well as much of Marvel and DC comics (absolute power corrupts the plot regularly). o The author clearly knew where the plot was going from Word 1. This becomes clearer the second or third time one reads the books. I have minor criticisms (choppier writing in Vol I, imbalanced time spent on specific getting from here to there, ...). But no complaints. THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS, Poul Anderson This is borderline -- it's fantasy that almost is science fiction. What's in a name? A FINE AND PRIVATE PLACE, Peter S Beagle One of my favorite opening lines: "The baloney weighed the raven down." THE PHANTOM TOLLBOOTH, Norman Juster, Ills. Jules Feiffer and also some science fiction which looks a lot like, or masquerades as, fantasy: Gene Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN n-ology THE HIGH CRUSADE, Poul Anderson (alien invaders in [medieval?] England) Neveryonia books, by Samuel Delaney (in moderate doses) A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS, David Lindsay and a very strange book whose name escapes me, heavily laced with erotic/pornographic interactions among strange creatures, in a fantasy landscape, with lots of magnetism and silly science -- a purely flakey book. Not Phil J Farmer or anybody else well known. I mean, this was really off the wall! Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri 7 Jun 85 10:25:10-PDT From: Alderson@Score Subject: V10 #178--Bond films Although I don't want to turn this into a Bond-age list, I would like to correct an error in the previous posting. "Never Say Never Again" is the original screenplay, co-authored by Fleming and someone whose name escapes me, which they COULD NOT GET ANYONE TO BUY! Fleming turned the screenplay into a new novel, _Thunderball_, and went on from there. So it is only VERY loosely describable as "a remake of THUNDERBALL." And a vote for "On Her Majesty's Secret Service": This one was very close to the novel in feel, if not in absolute text. And I can forgive anything to a movie with the opening that this one has. *** SPOILER WARNING *** Bond meets girl (Tracy? It's been too long...) on beach. (BTW, "girl" is Bondian for "woman"; actress was Diana Rigg.) Tries to strike up little romance, ends up fighting for his life. Has only her shoes in his hands as she drives away. Looks dead into the camera and says, "This never happened to the other fella..." Rich Alderson@Score ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV Date: 6 Jun 85 03:34:59 GMT > The Thomas Covenant books started off with promise, and an > interesting premise - that a leper is fundamentally different in > his world-view from you and me. But fifty pages or so into the > first book, the ten warning signs of mediocre fantasy start > screaming at you. Giants, evil wizards, etc., etc., etc. And by > the time you finish the first three, there's this horrible > realization that this is a story that can and will go on forever. Interesting, I'm reading Mr. Tuckers presentation on what he considers to be the problems in sf/fantasy today (sometimes agreeing/sometimes not) and just when I began to wonder what his views of the Covenant books are, this little bit comes up. Well, you have struck a deep cord with me on this one. Namely this: I consider the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant to be one of the best books in the fantasy field (or any field for that matter). Certainly in the top ten. I can remember many times getting into disagreements over people about these books, and it has become apparent to me that no one who has ever read them (or tried to read them) has been able to remain neutral about them. Either they consider it one of THE best stories ever written or they despised it exceedingly (At least I have never met anyone with a neutral opinion). Most of the complaints I have heard against this story are mainly against the character of Thomas Covenant himself. I will be the first to admit that he is not your typical fantasy/sf hero. I'm not even sure you can classify him as an anti-hero (ala Elric). The inability to classify him is one of the reasons I have enjoyed him so much as a character. You can't pin the guy down. Here is a character who is who he is despite how the reader feels he should be. Covenant is a Worm. This is the most commonly heard complaint about him from the detractors. He's always down on himself; he never allows others to help him; he hurts others without seeming to care; And so on and so forth. I have only one thing to say: How in the world can he act any other way? Look at where the guy is coming from. He's an outcast from society and he knows it. He has also got the brains to realize that if he let's societies cold shoulder get to him (ie if he begins to care) he will go nuts. In the story, the impossible (in his view) happens: He enters a world totally unlike the one he lives in. He is suddenly inundated with Health and loving when he had just come to live with the idea of never having those things again. To keep himself from going mad, he dis-believes it. He says that he is only dreaming. And he knows that if he is dreaming, then one day he will wake up to find himself once more a leper, and he can't face going through that again. So instead of facing a danger to his sanity, he refuses to believe in his cure. Despite all the evidence, the health, the loving the others in the story give him; he stands strong by his leprosy. It is all he has left TOO stand on. In his article, Mr. Tucker complains about the introduction of the generic fantasy elements into the story. The point I think he fails to see is that it is these elements that set of the whole story. This is not a fantasy novel whose main character happens to be a leper; this is a story of a leper who must come to terms with the nature of his disease when he suddenly finds himself in a fantasy setting. Furthermore, the so-called generic fantasy elements are in my opinion far from generic. This book has some of the most creative fantasy elements I have ever seen in any book. Even Tolkien borrowed heavily from mythology when he wrote LOTR, but Donaldson had to create a totally new setting. In the Land there were no elves, dwarves, dragons. Nor were there kindly old though somewhat absentminded wizards (The Lords of Revelstone may have wielded some "magic" but they were very naive in there understanding of it). The people of the land were quite diversified with many fascinating backgrounds. The Bloodguard with there Vow to the Lords; the Waynhim and there rebellion against there brothers the ur-viles; the Ramen and the Raynhim who they attend with a devotion approaching a religion; and foremost, the Giants. The Rockbrothers and there story make one of the most interesting sub-plots to this tale. The very nature of it's telling ranks on par with mane "real" stories out of earth mythology. But of course, let us not forget the other side... The "bad guys" (to use a generic term) were also quite unique (except for maybe the cave wights who have many of the same characteristics as trolls and orcs). First there are the ur-viles, an artificially created race who have no true ancestry. They are the only race in the Land who truely do not belong simply because they were not a part of the "nature" of this world. But even better were the Ravers. Possession may be an old mainstay of other fantasy stories but nowhere other then the Covenenant books have I seen a truly wonderful indepth look as to how possession affects the possessed (actually this becomes one of the main themes of the second trilogy). Finally, of course comes Lord Foul the Despiser himself. along with ranking Covenant as the best main character of any book I have ever read, I place Foul at the top of any listing of antagonists. I could go on for pages about the nature of Fouls being (and give away a major part of the story in the meantime). Suffice it to say that when I gave this book to a World Lit teacher of mine in High School (a women who, mind you, HATED "modern" sci-fi/fantasy), she was overflowing with comments on the symbolism involved in the Covenant/Foul duo. These two characters are perhaps the best match-ups of protagonist/antagonist I have ever seen. You think that Sauron was a good antagonist? Look closer. The character of Sauron never (and I do mean NEVER) surfaces in LOTR. He's always in the background setting up events, but you never actually get a look at the guy himself, what his motivations are, that sort of thing (though Tolkien does remedy this somewhat in "The Silmarillion"). Anyways, sorry for going on so long about this but like I said, I love this story and I will defend it against all critics. Chris Andersen UUCP: tektronix!azure!chrisa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Jun 85 0959-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #204 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jun 85 0959-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #204 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 204 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Ellison (5 msgs) & Panshin & Yarbro, Films - Star Trek & James Bond (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 7 Jun 1985 07:25:42-PDT From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack From: anything you want with TECO and DDT) Subject: ``The writer concerned may know nothing about it.'' > In regard to the highly subjective test we are offered for > comparing books, I should like to mention an Asimov short story > titled (as best I recall) "The Immortal Bard." In the story, a > university physics professor tells an English professor of a time > machine he has built. Already, we learn, he has used it to bring > Shakespeare to the present. The gentleman was so fascinated to > learn that his works were still studied and performed that the > physicist enrolled him in the English professor's Shakespeare > course--which he proceeded to flunk. > In short, be careful when attributing brilliant craftmanship > (sic) and subtle imagry (sic) to a favored author. The writer > concerned may know nothing about it. Indeed, this reminds me of an Asimov anecdote (which was related by Asimov, but I don't remember where so I can't quote), something along the lines of: Asimov was a member of the audience at a lecture where, to support his thesis, the lecturer discussed one of Asimov's stories (no, I don't remember which one). As it turned out, the lecturer's ideas concerning the story in question didn't jive with Asimov's, so Asimov decided to liven things up a bit: he stood up and, after obtaining the lecturer's attention, stated that the lecturer's interpretation of the story couldn't possibly be correct because it had never entered the author's mind. Asimov supported this assertion by stating that he should know -- he was the author. The lecturer responded with the only possible reply: ``so?'' In relating this anecdote, Asimov stated that he agreed with the lecturer's response; as do I. Kevin ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison Date: 8 Jun 85 03:20:11 GMT joel@peora.UUCP (Joel Upchurch) writes: >> Ellison stated that the idea of 'The Terminator' came from >> two episodes he wrote for 'Outer Limits'. > >This seems a little thin. The producers would have had to copied a >lot more than the IDEA from Ellison for him to win a copyright >suit. Ideas are not copyrightable, only the particular expression >of those ideas are. If you could sue a writer for stealing an >idea, they could sue every writer in existence. When was the last >time you saw a TV show or a movie with an original plot? A writer >has to be very good just to come up with an interesting variation >of an old idea. I read somewhere that the settlement with Ellison cost them $70K. (locus?) There is a strong difference between reusing and idea and rehashing a story. What is and isn't plagiarism is a very nebulous point, but there is a big difference between building a new story around an old idea (as Gerrold did with Trouble With Tribbles) and what seems to have happened here. This isn't the first time Hollywood has ripped off Harlan -- he and Ben Bova got a settlement a number of years ago for a TV show that ripped off their short story 'Brillo' about a robot cop. The reality is that SF authors get ripped off a LOT, mainly because they seem to be afraid to fight back, either independently or through their agents or SFWA. The Mystery Writers group, on the other hand, has relatively little problem because they DO tend to police their work. Harlan, who has been around that industry for a long time and isn't known for his timidity, is also not afraid to go for what he believes is his. If other authors or the SFWA took a more active stance in hollywood, perhaps hollywood would take SF a bit more seriously. From the misfiring synapses of: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 7 Jun 1985 23:42:09-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Ellison & THE TERMINATOR > From: Michael Wahrman > In today's (May 30) Hollywood Reporter, there is a full page ad that > reads: > > Exhibit "A" > Press Release > > Hemdale Film Corporation and HARLAN ELLISON are pleased to > announce that they have resolved their dispute regarding the > motion picture The Terminator and Hemdale Film Corporation > acknowledges the works of HARLAN ELLISON. [In the ad, "Harlan > Ellison" is in bold face] > > [then at the bottom, in small type] > > With special thanks to Destroyer Lawyer, Henry W. Holmes, Jr. > > Does anyone know what this is about. The original poster asked for an answer by mail, but for the general interest, I'm also posting this to SFL. Ellison's lawyer brought suit against the producers of THE TERMINATOR, claiming that the story concepts in the movie were too close to the two OUTER LIMITS scripts written by Ellison --- "Demon with a Glass Hand" and "Soldier". Personally, I feel that the similarities, while certainly there, are too superficial for a lawsuit, but there was an out of court settlement. The producers probably figured it wasn't worth fighting. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: re: A BOY AND HIS DOG Date: 8 Jun 85 06:53:31 GMT > From: weitek!neal (Neal B.) >> Comes highly recommended. Comments? Has anyone else ever seen >> this one? >> --Evan Marcus > Yep. You may never think the same way about popcorn again. Jason > Robards is priceless as the Dog's telepathic voice. Jason Robards did not provide Blood's voice. He played the leader of the Downunder group. Blood's voice was done by a fellow named Tim McIntire. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!julian@topaz.arpa (Julian Gomez) Subject: Re: Re: A Boy and His Dog Date: 9 Jun 85 06:08:17 GMT > While the dog is intentionally the smartest and most worthwhile > character in the movie, the ending line is barbaric and > abominable. I believe the author of the short story shares this > opinion--it ain't in the story. The movie version of "A Boy and His Dog" is one of the most faithful adaptions of a written work Hollywod has ever done. The ending is just as it is in the story, virtually word for word. Some even consider the movie a two hour lead in for the ending punch line. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez The Ohio State University {ucbvax,decvax}!cbosg!osu-eddie!julian ------------------------------ From: sftri!rajeev@topaz.arpa (S.Rajeev) Subject: Re: A Boy and His Dog (spoiler) Date: 9 Jun 85 22:48:58 GMT > While the dog is intentionally the smartest and most worthwhile > character in the movie, the ending line is barbaric and > abominable. I believe the author of the short story shares this > opinion--it ain't in the story. I dont think cannibalism is a great idea, but if that was the only way to save that faithful canine, I can't blame the boy for what he did; furthermore, I dont take it literally: I think it was just a clever metaphor for the choice the boy had to make between companions. I must also quibble a bit here: "it ain't in the story" doesn't necessarily mean the author didnt intend it -- he/she might just not have thought of it. ...ihnp4!attunix!rajeev -- usenet ihnp4!attunix!rajeev@BERKELEY -- arpanet Sri Rajeev, SF 1-342, ATT Info. Sys., Summit, NJ 07901. (201)-522-6330. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 8 Jun 85 11:49:20-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: Galactic Pantograph A couple of years ago, I asked Baird Searles at the SF Bookshop, and he said that Panshin's problems with his publisher had been ironed out and we could expect the book any time now. This is obviously not quite true (either that or there were a LOT of errors in the galleys...) -Laurence ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: A MORTAL GLAMOUR by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro Date: 7 Jun 85 22:36:44 GMT A MORTAL GLAMOUR by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro Bantam, 1985, A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper While not strictly a horror story, A MORTAL GLAMOUR does have its horrific elements. Set in a convent in France in 1387, the story deals with the repressed sexuality of the nuns there--many of whom were deposited there by their families when they (the nuns) would not agree to the marriages arranged for by their families, or when their families could not arrange marriages for them at all. One nun, Seur Aungelique, escapes to a nearby villa where the Comtesse Orienne lives. Here she sees "how the other half lives" as she is a guest at one of the Comtesse's debauched parties. Upon returning to the convent, she is beset by "demons" who ravage her nightly. Her torments seem to be contagious, as gradually most of the convent is taken over by these persecutions. The priest sent to cure them is no better, but his excesses are channeled in more "accepted" paths. Along with all this, we are given the Flagellants and the Plague as minor(!) characters. While the topic is of some psychological interest, one can't help but feel that Yarbro is concentrating more on the sensational aspects and less on what drives these women to madness. A cover blurb that talks about "ecstatic moans of pleasure" and "a netherworld of debauchery and defilement" does not serve to re-enforce the seriousness of this book. But it's probably as good (or better) than the usual best-seller. Of interest to Yarbro fans (and yes, she's still into elaborate descriptions of clothing!). Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Star Trek Date: 7 Jun 85 07:10:22 GMT When I saw STAR TREK III I thought the distance was announced in kilokems, perhaps this bit would have been better done with subtitles. Certainly the Klingons are going in for more comfortable bridge designs. No longer does the bridge crew have to be good at 'pole clutching' (or was that the Romulans?). The captains no longer have to sit in the corner waiting for the rest of the bridge to be built. I hope that the Romulans are soon going to get a mention in the films because Klingons aren't the only hostile aliens in the S.T. universe and when you've seen one Klingon, you've seen them all. Andy T. ------------------------------ From: warwick!kay@topaz.arpa (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: Book (and movie) titles Date: 7 Jun 85 08:24:04 GMT boyajian@akov68.DEC writes: >The only problem I have with titles is when the title has no >bearing whatsoever on the story. Take, for example, the latest Bond >movie. What does "A View to a Kill" have to do with the film at >all? Jerry, Haven't seen the film (don't much like Bond movies) so I don't know the plot, but I reckon that the title is a transformation of a line in the traditional English fox-hunting (yes, we're still allowed to do appalling things like fox-hunting over here :-( ) song "D'ye ken John Peel" "from the view to the kill in the morning." Is that any help? Kay. mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: Book (and movie) titles Date: 7 Jun 85 23:33:37 GMT All the Salzman-Brocoli Bond movies have used genuine Ian Fleming titles although the stories long ago used to have any similarity to the original. I suppose that 'On Her Majesty's Secret Service' was the last one that had much to do with the book. I'm open to correction (as always!) but I think that 'From a View to a Kill' was a short story in the 'For Your Eyes Only' collection (PAN books in the UK). If they follow this principle then there are still several spare titles left. Anyway, who'd go to a movie with a Duran Duran sound track? :-) Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit) Subject: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply Date: 5 Jun 85 04:35:25 GMT henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes: >You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not. >Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else. Just >because a majority Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michaelangelo is not "just another" sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any trash can, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may believe otherwise. >does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have >mine. Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ??? (e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!) >for enjoyment. If no one read for fun, the publishing industry >would be practically non-existant. As for science fiction, it would >never have gone beyond The War of the Worlds (an excellent book, >but the field doesn't end with that one title). Ah, but perhaps we could do just as well, with just half of what is published. DOes one have to read a lot of nonsense to have fun ??? Oz {decvax|ihnp4|allgra|linus}!utzoo!yetti!oz oz@yuyetti (bitnet) ------------------------------ From: warwick!asz@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV Date: 7 Jun 85 02:50:43 GMT dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes: >Whether we want to admit it our not, science fiction includes >fantasy. I don't want to classify science fiction and fantasy under the same banner. I think they are different, even if the boundaries are a little fuzzy and the exact categories a bit difficult to specify. Or can't I have them as different, because after all _you_ say they are the same. >Tolkein's works are finely crafted, well-written, and show an >understanding of that element of mythos which is essential to good >fantasy. Tolkein's characters are the best crafted stereotypes I have ever seen. How often did they get around to the basic pleasures in life, like __x. >And precious few of his imitators have bothered to understand and >explicate that gut-level need in every human being for good against >evil and magic against all with any more subtletly and finesse than >a Ginsu knife commercial. _Gut level good against evil_ I would say "you make me throw, but I'm too kind. >Jason wasn't exactly the nicest guy in the world, and Ulysses had >some serious problems himself. Thomas Covenant was hardly a great hero (being a rapist etc). I think fantasy has managed to come up with the anti-hero since Jason and Ulysses. Ever read Moorcock (or maybe that's SF). --Alex ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!asz ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 10 Jun 85 1037-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #205 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jun 85 1037-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #205 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 10 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 205 Today's Topics: Books - Cullen & Eddison & Sucharitkul & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Dover Press, Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs), Television - Dracula & Space: 1999 & The Prisoner, Miscellaneous - Perry Rhodan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: warwick!kay@topaz.arpa (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: Other Good Fantasy Recommendations and thoughts Date: 8 Jun 85 13:11:35 GMT ddern@bbncch writes: >and a very strange book whose name escapes me, heavily laced with >erotic/pornographic interactions among strange creatures, in a >fantasy landscape, with lots of magnetism and silly science -- a >purely flakey book. Not Phil J Farmer or anybody else well known. >I mean, this was really off the wall! I reckon you must be talking about "Astra and Flondrix", by Seamus Cullen. Well, what can I say about it? except that I recommend it HEARTILY to anyone who can cope with non-prissy fantasy (and anyone who loathes Tolkien ;-)). Most (if not all) of the people round here that I've lent my precious copy to have considered it one of the funniest books they ever read. Has anyone else out there read it? Has Cullen written anything else? Kay. mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay ------------------------------ From: warwick!kay@topaz.arpa (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: Problems with SF: Fantasy Date: 7 Jun 85 09:02:04 GMT lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley writes: >Mistress of Mistresses by ER Eddison (also The Worm Ourobouros, if >you like extended strategy, intricacies of politics, and swordplay. At last! someone else who likes Eddison! Personally, I preferred _A_Fish_ _Dinner_in_Memison_, but all four are so enjoyable that it's a *very* close thing indeed (apart from the spotty beginning four pages or so of TWO). Anyone else out there who appreciates ERE? BTW, for FRP people, I'm designing a campaign based around TWO, TMG, AFDIM and MOM.... should be fun. Any FRP ERE-readers are more than welcome to make suggestions about it to me. Kay. mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay ------------------------------ From: crash!jerryh@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Fri, 7 Jun 85 10:23:33 PDT Subject: Somtow Sucharitkul: _read_these!_ I've been following SF-Lovers for a few months now, and I'm surprised that no one has said anything about Somtow Sucharitkul's Inquestor Series. The books in the series are: o Light On The Sound o The Throne Of Madness o Utopia Hunters o The Darkling Wind I'm not going to say anything about these books (no spoilers), but this set of four novels is probably some of the finest F&SF to be written in the last 20 years. Admittedly, there must be a small suspension of disbelief on the part of the reader, but Sucharitkul's skill as a wordsmith more than makes up for the minor inconsistencies that are the basis for the story. I really can't stress my delight with these books strongly enough -- every time I have someone over who's interested in F&SF I drag them over to the bookcase and beat them over the head with one of the paperbacks (in some cases I've written the names of the books on a piece of scrap paper and forced them to take it home). But! Don't judge the rest of Somtow Sucharitkuls' work by these four books. His other writing, with the exception of Starship & Haiku, is trash (I was heartbroken!). He even wrote a story for the (gag! choke! barf!) "V" paper- back series called "V - The Alien Swordmaster". Spare toilet tissue... Anyway: PLEASE do yourself a favor and beg, borrow or steal copies of these books and read them. They will become four of your most prized possessions. Jerry Hewett {crash!jerryh@ucsd} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 85 11:00 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: Recent use of computers in SF To add one more line of defense for Roger Zelazny in connection with the proliferation of computers in recent SF, I'd like to mention a short story he did at least eight or nine years ago. It's called "My Lady of the Diode" and has a briefcase-portable computer with rather impressive abilities. The story has appeared in one of his more recent anthologies - The Last Defender of Camelot or Unicorn Variations, I believe. Good story. ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: re: attacks on "Lord of Light" Date: 6 Jun 85 22:27:45 GMT donn@utah-cs writes: >I have to agree with John Redford here, although I have some >sympathy with Bill Ingogly's point. I've read both Naipaul's A >BEND IN THE RIVER and Zelazny's LORD OF LIGHT and they are so >different, in plot, style, characterization and intent, that >comparing them on a sentence by sentence basis strikes me as an >absurd exercise. Now that I've read several responses to my posting, I have to agree that it was a bad choice of books for a direct comparison. But as I've pointed out elsewhere, 'tweren't the point of my posting anyways ... >I much preferred the other Naipaul novel I've read, A HOUSE FOR MR. >BISWAS, which is a fictionalized autobiography of Naipaul's >childhood in Trinidad. Although HOUSE is equally pitiless toward >its characters, they seemed much more human, and I was able to >empathize with them almost in spite of the author... I liked both books. It seems we're dealing with differences of taste here, and perhaps we read fiction for different reasons. Certainly (as you point out) some fictional characters aren't SUPPOSED to be sympathetic. For a few additional examples, try Hazel Motes in Flannery O'Connor's Wise Blood, or the evil protagonist (can't remember the name) in Graham Greene's Brighton Rock, or Benny Profane, the ultimate schlemiel in Thomas Pynchon's V. Antiheros ain't always pretty to listen to, since they sometimes tell us things about the human condition that we don't particulary enjoy hearing. >will say that while LORD is not profound, it is deeper than Bill >Ingogly implies; ... style is not as pedestrian as Bill would have >it either, although it does have its weaknesses; ... characters >don't seem dead, as Bill would claim. As I've said and said and said ... I'll have to reread L of L, since I seem to have been somewhat unfair to Zelazny. Enough said. >You shouldn't feel guilty about not reading boring classics, but >you will probably feel chagrin if you overlook a work you lumped >into that category and later on discover that it was brilliant or that you enjoyed the hell out of it. Many of the people who flamed me (or who otherwise think I'm a nut case) may not believe it, but the reason behind my posting is that I LIKE many of the authors I named, and I sincerely believe many people in this group are denying themselves pleasure by not reading outside the genre. >(Here's my little plug: a book that combines gritty realism with >the head space of certain kinds of sf (such as Ballard or Dick) is >FAR TORTUGA by Peter Matthiessen. Try reading it and see if you >don't get the same kick you get when reading excellent sf; I sure >did.) I totally agree. >Trying to figure out what brought on this spasm of self-criticism >in sf-lovers, Some people find the self-criticism worrisome; I find it a positive thing. It never hurts people (SF fans included) to take a long hard look at what they're doing and maybe consider alternatives to the habitual. A good dialogue (or even an outright disagreement) can be stimulating and constructive, don't you think? -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jun 85 15:29 EDT From: Denber.wbst@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Dover Press I can only second the favorable comments that have appeared in this digest recently about the Dover Press. They also publish an extensive line of music books, including orchestral scores, piano music, and hard-to-find harpsichord music (like the Fitzwilliams Virginal Book in two volumes). Best of all, these are well-constructed books - the paper is high-quality, and the pages stand up to even the abuse they typically get on your average music desk. And if that weren't enough, the price is quite resonable. (One of my favorite Dover books: The Space Child's Mother Goose). By all means, check them out. - Michel ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: RHPS -- To participate or not to participate Date: 8 Jun 85 02:55:09 GMT With regard to the Rocky Horror Picture Show, I have had the privilege of attending several showings under the aegis of several SF conventions held in Glasgow where it is a BIG favourite with the fans. Under such circumstances, the audience is allowed (nay, encouraged) to participate -- unlike at cinema screenings where such activities (as throwing confetti and pieces of toast) are frowned upon to say the least. Viewing RHPS under such circumstances is a unique experience and one not to be missed if the chance arises. However, last Friday (May 31st) Channel 4 (probably the best British TV channel at the moment) screened RHPS (the British TV premiere as far as I'm aware) and I still enjoyed it! I would say audience participation certainly adds to the film, but viewing it in a darkened, silent room allows certain subtleties to come through. If Steven Brust is still interested, I have seen an (American) import double album (therefore, beyond my price range for an L.P) called The RHPS Audience Part-i-cipation Album (love that title!). Sorry I don't have more details than that! NAME: John A Mariani PHONE: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 UUCP: ...!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@uk.ac.ucl.cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp POST: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Engineering Building, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC Subject: re: ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW Date: 8 Jun 85 07:29:15 GMT > From: topaz!lear (eliot lear) >> RHPS was sheer delight as a film until it was destroyed by the >> audience participation. >> -- SKZB > It has been the audience that has kept RHPS alive all these > years! If it were not for the audience, Rocky would have gone in > and out of the movie theatres just like any ordinary movie. The > movie itself is not that funny - It's the audience that makes me > laugh. However, if you do not like the audience participation, try > renting a VCR tape and seeing it home. That way no one can spoil > your movie. > From: warwick!asz > Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience > participation). Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy > the sheer brilliance of RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same > without audience participation - it is essential to the whole > ethos to have the participation. Give me a break. Are you trying to teach your grandpappy how to suck eggs? (1) For a good many of us who had seen RHPS *many* times over the course of three or so years without the audience participation (a.p.), the movie is a delight all on its lonesome. The a.p. is hardly "essential". Maybe it's preferential for you, but not for everyone. The a.p. was funny and enjoyable for the first few times, but after a while it got very annoying. There are those of us who like the *movie*, and would rather see *it* than the audience. I haven't see RHPS in, oh, probably 5-6 years precisely *because* of the annoyance of the audience. The a.p. is not the be all and the end all of the movie. The movie existed without it before, and it can do so again. (2) It's debatable whether or not RHPS would have become a cult film without the a.p. Other cult films, HAROLD AND MAUDE and KING OF HEARTS to name two, certainly don't require a.p. And it seems to me that the a.p. started *after* RHPS acheived cult status. (3) RHPS did indeed start out as a stage play, but *without* a.p. The movie was first released in late 1975, and the a.p. didn't get into full swing until 1979 or so. (3) As for renting a videotape, I wish I *could*. But, contrary to popular belief, RHPS has *not* yet been released on tape (in the US, at least). And it's probably because 20th Century Fox is afraid that it will cut into the theater rentals, thus it's quite likely that the a.p. is *preventing* Steven and I from enjoying the movie in the privacy of our homes. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM ------------------------------ From: vaxwaller!cw@topaz.arpa (Carl Weidling) Subject: Re: Marketing PBS movies Date: 3 Jun 85 23:24:56 GMT > From: crash!jerryh@SDCSVAX.ARPA > I recently saw a suggestion from someone on this digest concerning > PBS and the possibilities of their marketing some of the movies > they've made. I recall seeing a version of "Dracula" on PBS. Is this another one of their movies. Of all the vampire movies I've seen, this version followed Stoker's novel most closely. I believe the count was played by Louis Jourdan. -Carl Weidling ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it Date: 8 Jun 85 04:00:00 GMT It's pretty difficult to defend this one, guys. A show where the major premise involves the moon getting blasted away from the Earth at interstellar velocity? (I worked this out once, and it would take about 8 lunar masses of matter combined with 8 lunar masses of antimatter to do this, never mind the G forces!) Space 1999 had no concept of the nature of the galaxy, the distances involved and the planetology. Even Galactica was better (Although not at handling the nature of the Galaxy). Worst of all, the show took itself so seriously. Real successes like Doctor Who and Star Trek have had levity to keep them going when the SF fails. Space 1999 never came close. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Mon 10 Jun 85 00:31:28-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Prisoner (minor spoiler) Now that they are running The Prisoner in the NY area, I am finally catching up with the series, most of which I missed previously. Tonight WNYC ran 'The Chimes of Big Ben', for some mysterious reason skipping the first episode. ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** The woman in this episode claims, in the space of a few sentences, to be Estonian, and that her name is Nadia Nakovsky (or something close to that). This is nonsense. That name is about as Estonian as is Richard Nixon. Even if she was born and raised in Estonia, she would not have claimed that nationality: the Soviets go by ethnic background, not birthplace in deciding such things. Also the language with which she speaks to her collaboraters is definitly NOT Estonian, and very probably not Lithuanian either. It sounds like Russian to me. ****** END OF SPOILER ****** [In case you're wondering, my ancestors came from a village on an island off the coast of Estonia. And no, they had names, not numbers.] Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: space "operas" Date: 9 Jun 85 03:45:30 GMT >[As for Perry Rhodan] There was supposed to be a film: 'SOS >from Outer Space' - Where is it now? There is a Perry Rhodan film called MISSION STARDUST (Spain/Italy/W. German, 1968). It starred Lang Jeffries as Rhodan and had Essy Persson (I, A WOMAN) as the villian. My best wish for you is to be healthy, live long, and somehow never see the film. Second best is dying young and never seeing the film. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 Jun 85 0955-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #206 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jun 85 0955-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #206 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 11 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 206 Today's Topics: Magazines - SF Magazine Reviews, Miscellaneous - Alternate History In the Visual Media & Sequels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: IASFM (actually, SF magazine reviews) Date: 9 Jun 85 04:13:05 GMT jpa144@cit-vax writes: >I've been hearing a lot lately about how good Isaac Asimov's SF >Magazine is. From time to time I pick up issues of Analog or F&SF; >Analog just doesn't run enough worthwhile stories for it to be >worth my while to read through every issue, and F&SF is >almost-but-not-quite worth it. From what I hear of Asimov's, it >has the highest level of quality of the three. Well, I subscribe to five SF magazines, IASFM being one of them. I personally wouldn't call IASFM the 'best' magazine on the market, each of them specializes in a different form or flavor of the SF/Fantasy genre and is aimed towards a different audience to some degree. Rather than try a comparative analysis of the magazines (apples to oranges, really) I thought it might be more useful to start up a debate by describing each of the magazines emphasis, and note their strong and weak points. Others will probably disagree, but this seems like a lot more fun than listening to people tell us how rotten SF is..... Locus - The newspaper of Science Fiction This is a monthly semi-prozine about Science Fiction. If you are interested in SF, this is the magazine that will keep you informed. It carries information on who is buying, what they are buying, what has been sold, what has been published, and all the information you need to follow the publishing industry. Interesting columns, such as Richard Curtiss' discussions of the agent field, and lots of book reviews. This magazine also has the most complete and accurate con list you will find. Anyone serious about writing SF needs this magazine at least as much as Writers Digest, and it is well worth keeping around. This is NOT a media-fest gush at the godlike authors slime, Locus doesn't pull punches and DOES keep a close watch on the industry... Analog - Science Fact, Science Fiction The home of Campbellian SF, specializes in literate, well thought out SF, tends towards traditional SF. I feel that Analog is finally rebounding after a long decline (starting during the latter days of Ben Bova acting as editor). Quality of the stories isn't consistent, but getting better. Of the four fiction magazines, I'm sorry to say that Analog is at the bottom of my preference list, but I'm sure others will disagree. Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine If Analog is literate SF, IASFM is fun. Expect changes over the next six months now that Shawna McCarthy has moved on and been replaced by Gardner Dozois, one of the few people I can think of that might be able to keep the flavor of this magazine alive. This is the best market for new writers, and because of that there is a freshness to the writing. They are also building a solid stable of pro's that keep the quality of the writing high. They tend to be light, enjoyable stories, nothing that requires a lot of brain thought, but that doesn't mean this stuff is schlock. Martin Gardner does a monthly brain game, which almost makes up for the fact that Isaac does a monthly editorial. The letter column is unabashedly gushing about how great the magazine is, to the point of being embarrassing. This is number three on my list of magazines. Amazing Science Fiction Stories George Scithers, the man who made IASFM what it is, came to Amazing when he left that magazine. Amazing is as good as IASFM, but tends to cater to a slightly more sophisticated taste. Another good market for new writers, fiction tends to be a bit more thoughtful, not necessarily as optimistic, and quite good. Scithers deserves the Hugo's he's gotten for best editor. This magazine also has the film review column displaced by F&SF when they took on Harlan Ellison as media maven, but Baird Searles gives him a run for the money. I prefer this to IASFM, but its a tough call. Fantasy & Science Fiction Edited by Ed Ferman, the best description of this magazine that I can come up with has to be eclectic fantasy. A very strong Fantasy bent, unlike the other magazines, this is almost impossible for a new author (although it does happen) and tends to be the genre magazine where the heavy authors publish. Harlan Ellison does a great media column (when he doesn't miss his deadline) and A.J. Budrys does the best book reviews in the industry. This is much more a literary magazine than the others, and isn't out to win lots of subscribers, lots of advertising, or lots of anything. F&SF is only interested in good fiction, and because of this I consider it the strongest magazine in the field, and the most consistent as well, because they don't try to follow the trends, they just try to publish what they like. Even the Isaac Asimov Science column each month doesn't significantly disrupt the quality of the magazine. My vote for the best Fiction magazine, as well as the most consistent one. F&SF tends to be more difficult to find than the others on the newstands, but it is worth tracking down. TSR has been trying to improve distribution of Amazing, and IASFM and Analog seem to be everywhere. All of them are worth reading, assuming you like their style of fiction. Which one is 'best' depends upon that as well, and you'll find as many people who disagree with what I say as you will that agree... :From the misfiring synapses of: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Alternate History In the Visual Media Date: 7 Jun 85 22:36:15 GMT THE ROAD NOT TAKEN: Alternate History in the Visual Media Some thoughts by Evelyn C. Leeper The idea of an alternate history is not rare in science fiction--a recent article the THE PROPER BOSKONIAN cited a bibliography over over a thousand stories! Why then, when it comes to visual science fiction, is it so rare? An examination of the few examples one can find may help answer that question. Strangely enough, there seems to be only one film (as distinguished from television shows or other visual media) that deals with alternate history that has achieved any popularity in this country, and that film is QUEST FOR LOVE. Based on John Wyndham's "Random Quest," this British film begins with a physicist transferred to an alternate reality as a result of a laboratory accident. In this alternate world, he is not a physicist, but a playwright--or rather, his counterpart is. (The details of the transfer are a little vague.) Now, admittedly, if one examines most science fiction premises too closely, they tend to fall apart. But this one falls apart faster than most. In this alternate world, World War II never happened (more on this later). This would explain the profession change--it was to a great extent the atomic bomb that inspired the then current generation of scientists (the film was made in 1971). And the main character appears to have been born before the alteration (to borrow Kingsley Amis's term), so the question of "would his parents have met, etc.?" does not really arise. But the background doesn't make sense. Problem #1 is the base premise--that the alternate branched off from ours in 1938. By 1938, Hitler had been in power for five years and Japan had occupied Manchuria for two, so that the prevention of World War II at that time was highly unlikely. In fact, the general consensus seems to be that the seeds of World War II were sown by the Treaty of Versailles, so this film is about twenty years late in its placement. One might call this problem the ignorance of causes. Problem #2 is trickier. One of the little touches that gives the main character a hint of what's going on is a headline indicating that John Kennedy has become the new head of the League of Nations. Since the internal time of the film is post-1963, our protagonist finds this a bit odd, to say the least (never mind the League of Nations bit). But it's even odder than he thinks--one of the factors that got Kennedy into the public eye was his war record. Another was his good showing against Nixon's poor one in the debates. Nixon, in turn, was running because he served as Vice- President under Eisenhower, who certainly was elected on the basis of HIS war record. One might claim that Kennedy would have gone into a political career anyway, but I think that his age (or rather, lack of it--he would have been only 51 years old when the film takes place) would have delayed his career considerably. This sort of problem might be called the ignorance of effects. At this point, the difficulty becomes clear--to do a good alternate history, one must understand history not merely as a set of dates and events, but as a chain of causes and effects. This is more depth than film producers usually have to deal with. American TV hasn't done much better. There exist a few stories dealing with this topic. TWILIGHT ZONE's "The Parallel" has Astronaut Robert Gaines go up into orbit and black out, only to find himself back on earth (having somehow soft-landed the capsule!). But it's not quite the earth he remembers: he's now a colonel, not a major, Kennedy isn't the President, his house has acquired a picket fence, etc. The story never really deals with any implications of these changes--the man who built the Panama Canal in the alternate world is not the same as in this one (Gaines is checking items in an encyclopedia), but future history after that seems remarkably similar to our own. STAR TREK's "The City on the Edge of Forever" deals with alternate history as a sub-species of time paradox story. If Kirk saves Edith Keeler in 1930's New York, her pacifist activities will keep the United States out of World War II until it's too late, and the Axis will win (why the Japanese don't bomb Pearl Harbor, or why their bombing doesn't cause our entry into World War II, is never made clear). OUTER LIMITS touched upon the idea in "The Man Who Was Never Born." And I can't help but feel that ONE STEP BEYOND must have done something similar. But the one-hour (or half-hour) format seems to be too limiting for this theme. The best visual alternate history piece I have seen is a BBC television play, AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE. Made as three 50-minute episodes, it has time to develop the ideas that the concept (the Germans invaded Britain in 1940 and won the war) imply. In addition, its setting--that of the production of a television series set in Britain in the late Thirties and early Forties-- gives the author a chance to do some explaining to his audience without appearing to lecture. It's the small touches that make AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE work. For example, it has been pointed out that the drab clothing can be attributed to the lack of the "Mod revolution" that swept our Britain in the Sixties. And the cars parked in the background of the outdoor scenes are Volkswagens and such. There is some discussion of how the United States stayed out of the war (again, this ignores the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, which wouldn't seem to be connected to Germany's success or failure in invading England), but the concentration is much more on the present, and how the characters cope with the ever-present totalitarian government. There is a semblance of the old structure, but it is firmly under the control of the Third Reich. With the passing of time, the Reich has changed somewhat (the old timers are gone, and a new generation of leaders has replaced them), but the reminders of the beginnings remain: the "inferior races" have been exterminated or sent to labor camps, the racial purity laws are still in effect, etc. There is, of course, an Underground (no, not the subway!). They want to use the television show AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE as a means of passing messages--after all, everyone watches it. The government wants to use it also--to convince everyone that everything has turned out for the best. Yes, the British were brave during the war, etc., but when the time came, they saw what was right, laid down their arms, and joined forces with the Germans to bring law and order back to Britain. The main character, Peter Ingram (played by Kenneth More), is the author of the television show AN ENGLISHMAN'S CASTLE, and needless to say, he has problems keeping everyone happy, or at least not ready to kill him. As an alternate history, it is well thought out, and succeeds in large part because it doesn't spend a lot of time trying to dazzle the viewer with all the changes. It sneaks up on you, the same way the truth snuck up on the main character in QUEST FOR LOVE. Little comments that the characters make seem "off", and then you finally realize what is going on. (I read the entire novel THE DRAGON WAITING feeling that things were a bit "off", but it wasn't until the afterword that I realized that it was an alternate history. This is a little more obvious than that.) So why are there so few good alternate history stories in the visual media? Simply put, it takes more thought than most producers are willing to give it. Even if a writer turns in a good script, he ends up having to explain it to a producer, who really wants something he can sign Tom Selleck and a bunch of teen-age girls in wet T-shirts for. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Sequels Date: 9 Jun 85 05:46:08 GMT > From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA >>A readership that wants a sequel to every novel. . . > There is an implication here that there is something > automatically wrong with series, trilogies, series, and so on. If > a series of whatever length is desired and enjoyed, it is because > the writer has created a character, a society or a concept that > has captured the imagination of readers. If the point of interest > is not covered in detail from beginning to end, there may very > well be an interest in more. The fact that the author may have > intended this from the beginning does not change the validity of > the concept. The market will decide if the writer is correct or > not. I used to be a hot critic of sequels. Mainly because I felt that they destroyed the meaning of the original books that they are trying to mimic. I still feel this (though not for EVERY sequel), but I don't criticise the authors anymore. When I went to the last Boskone, I went to a panel where they discussed sequels and their merit. I came out with one conclusion. That is, if I were an author of a successful book and the publisher came and offered me a nice advance on a sequel, I would find it hard to refuse them. Blame the authors for being weak in not refusing, but consider first what you would do in this situation. You have to get bread on the table somehow. > Sometimes a series should have stopped at one. Sometimes > not. I've never heard anyone suggest that Asimov should have > stopped with _Foundation_. Actually, the first three Foundation books are an anthology of short stories written by Asimov several years ago. I don't think I would technically call the stories sequels. However, _Foundations_Edge_ is most definitely a sequel. > I'm glad that Steven Brust gave us more than one novel on the life > and times of Vladimir Taltos. (On the other hand, many people > have said that Herbert *should* have quit after _Dune_.) Same here. Chris Andersen ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 Jun 85 1016-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #207 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jun 85 1016-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #207 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 11 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 207 Today's Topics: Art - Cover Art of New Poul Anderson Book, Books - Donaldson & King & Smith & Wolfe, Films - James Bond, Magazines - Magazine Reviews Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 10 Jun 85 19:48:27-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Cover Art -- THE GAME OF EMPIRE The latest of Poul Anderson's Flandry books is out. This one is less about Flandry than about his daughter, Diana (illegitimate, of course). The book itself was not half bad, although I think I've read too many of these, since I had it all figured out by page 38.... But the cover art is really good. It is by Victoria Poyser, and not only is it appropriate, it is pretty, and catches one of the best narrative portions of the book quite well. Obviously she read the book before doing the cover. Yay. I was getting a little tired of being looked at like I crawled out from under a damp rock every time I bought a Flandry book just on account of the scantily clad females decorating the covers. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 85 19:46:13 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant... I object not so much to the pathetic Covenant, nor to the interminable drawing-out of the plot, as I do to the language itself. The books are not good to read in the same way some things don't taste good. There are so many instances where a given word could be used, and Donaldson picks a word that looks great, sounds great, but is inexcusably obscure. I think I have an adequate vocabulary -- at least, the tests tell me so. I don't even mind learning new words. But it is distracting to run into a word and have to derive its meaning from context, or worse, put the book down and look it up. It makes me too aware that I am, as someone put it recently, reading...a...book... And even if that were not a problem, he is not consistent in his word use. It's as though he were saying to himself, "Oops, I've gone ten pages without a fancy rare word; better stick one in." It is important that language serve to make the story progress, not to demonstrate the vocabulary of the author. Such words stand out against the rest of the novel like bits of gristle in an otherwise nice piece of meat. They just don't fit. Doubtless you have some defenses for this line of attack also... Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: ttidca!dewey@topaz.arpa (William Dewey) Subject: Stephen King a.k.a. Richard Bachman???? Date: 10 Jun 85 05:57:26 GMT Having just finished the book 'Thinner' by Richard Bachman, I am a bit puzzled by the small white wrapper which was around the book upon which was printed 'Stephen King writing as Richard Bachman'. I have seen a reference to this in net.sf-lovers pertaining to the book 'The Long Walk' and the people at B. Dalton said that there were several other books by 'Richard Bachman/Stephen King' which would be out soon. On the book jacket of 'Thinner' is a picture of Richard Bachman which looks nothing like Stephen King, at least not the Stephen King in the American Express adds, and the book is dedicated 'To my wife, Claudia Inez Bachman' just coincidentally, Claudia Bachman took the photo of the author which appears on the jacket. Any info on this would be appreciated. Thanks, Bill Dewey ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Space Opera - STAR SMASHERS etc. Date: 10 Jun 85 18:02:50 GMT How can anyone mention STAR SMASHERS in the same sentence with E.E. Smith PhD.? I grew up on Doc Smith and while much is dated (Skylark was decades old when it was first printed, I believe) no one has yet captured sense of wonder quite like doc. I would no more think of satirizing him than I would of breaking stained glass church windows from the 13th century. I realize some would, but I consider them subhuman. Sorry, that's how I feel about it. "It's the thought, if any, that counts!" Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: ucbcad!kalash@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Wolfe's FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS Date: 10 Jun 85 04:08:48 GMT > At the risk of starting more flames in the group on quality and SF > (:-), my opinion is that Fifth Head of Cerberus is his best work, It is close, but for sheer breadth I like "The Book of the New Sun" better. They are both absolutely amazing works. > group on F. H. of C; does anyone else share our high opinion of > this book? While I normally do not make responses of 'I agree' (I mean what is the point?), I can not resist. "Fifth Head" is one of the great books of SF, and I can do no better than quote Anatomy of Wonder: "These summaries cannot touch the complexity, meaning and sheer beauty of these excellently written stories." Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley ucbvax!kalash ------------------------------ From: ihuxn!res@topaz.arpa (Rich Strebendt @ AT&T Information Systems From: - Indian Hill West; formerly) Subject: Re: IASFM Date: 10 Jun 85 22:42:31 GMT > I've been hearing a lot lately about how good Isaac Asimov's SF > Magazine is. From time to time I pick up issues of Analog or F&SF > ... From what I hear of Asimov's, it has the highest level of > quality of the three. Does anyone out there have any opinions on > the magazine? I have subscriptions to all three and look forward most to the monthly arrival of IASFM, then next most eagerly for Analog, and finally for F&SF. I feel that IASFM has lots of quite good work in most issues, and has a variety of stories so that I generally find one story I like very well, one I don't really care for, and the rest are entertaining to me if not memorable. Analog has a number of interesting fact articles as well as fiction, which I find enjoyable if there is not an overabundance of fact articles in the issue. The fiction seems too homogeneous somehow. I keep debating whether or not to renew my F&SF subscription. When they publish SF it is usually quite good -- some new work by one of the big names -- but I am not into fantasy and horror stories enough to find the rest of the magazine worth the money. Incidently, I dropped my subscription to OMNI magazine some time ago because I got tired of the strong emphasis on the paranormal and on flying saucers. I can tolerate fantasy in an SF magazine, but I cannot tolerate garbage. Rich Strebendt ...!ihnp4!iwsl6!res ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 7:34:04 EDT From: James Hofmann Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #204 In response to all those who are putting down the new Bond movie, ' A View To A Kill ' with apparently not having seen it, I thought I would straighten out some misconceptions being as I have seen the movie. First of all, the title has very much to do with the plot. I can't give it away but suffice to say that the character played by Christopher Walken is psychotic enough to want to be able to see mass destruction from his personal blimp. Second, Duran Duran provided only the title cut. And if you are just too sophisticated to listen to DD, I suggest you hide out in the bathroom until the tune ends. Don't miss the exciting first scene, though. Bond does some fantastic skiing once again. Finally, it seems whenever a new Bond movie is released a slew of critics sit on the sidelines ready to skewer it. I've heard many comments that this is the worst Bond movie. It definitely beats Moonraker and Never Say Never in my opinion. Thank You, Jim H ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OFF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV Date: 7 Jun 85 19:30:38 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY PART V: Rays Of Hope Through The Clouds Of Despair by Davis Tucker Lest anyone think that I am an ill wind that blows no one good, this installment will deal with the positive side of science fiction, those authors who are not hacks, who try to improve with every novel, who are and with luck will remain truly creative. These are the people to whom science fiction needs to turn in its hour of need, either to re-read a classic work or to eagerly await a new one. These authors have shown a commitment to their craft which is sadly lacking in many of their cohorts. There is much that we can learn by reading their works, lessons of love and pain and joy, despair and hatred, how to write a good sentence and a good paragraph, that turn of the phrase which sticks in the mind, plots that illuminate their characters, characterizations that are real and fascinating and wonderfully developed, dialogue that is not hokey, and so on. First on the list would have to be GENE WOLFE. From the very beginning, Wolfe has shown an incredible command of science fiction, the English language, and literature at its highest form. His short stories are beautifully crafted gems, fully-fleshed and filled with substance. His novels are so far above the usual run that it's not fair to describe them as science fiction, and taint them with that sordid connection. I could go on and on for days - let's just leave it with the statement that "The Book Of The New Sun" tetralogy revolutionized the field in a very quiet way, and made some authors see that they had been sitting on their Neaderthaloid preconceptions for far too long. In some isolated instances, a writer who had been in a slump, or a funk or a stew, had, after reading Wolfe's masterwork (conceivably), got off his butt and said "Hey - he can't do that! I gotta get out there and show this jerk I can write as good as he can!" And lo and behold, the quality of the genre has improved slightly, almost imperceptibly, since Wolfe has sprung his surprise on us. Unlike many, Gene Wolfe can justifiably say that the whole of science fiction is better for his having been a part of it. It's too early to tell, but "The Book Of The New Sun" may well turn out to be a turning point for science fiction. Let's hope so... ORSON SCOTT CARD is another. His work shows nothing but quality, pure and simple. Even when he retreats to an overworked theme, he brings something new and refreshing to it. There are a finite number of themes in the universe, and it all has been said before, but Card really goes to great lengths to provide a new viewpoint. "Unaccompanied Sonata" is an extremely well-written short story, a tribute to all that is art and all that is an artist, that still contains all of the trappings of a science fiction story (even down to the surprise ending). "Hart's Hope" is the best fantasy novel I have read in years, a novel that transcends its genre as all great literature should. The best example I can think of to introduce someone to Card is his short story "A Plague Of Butterflies". It's all that you can ask for in science fiction or fantasy. Card is one of the few new authors who has consistently avoided the pitfalls of fame, who has avoided insidious sequelization and has pursued his own muse to the exclusion of the illusion of popularity. BRIAN ALDISS has been around for years, unheralded in America, except perhaps for his editorial work on the Golden Age Of Science Fiction, "Billion Year Spree", and "Galactic Empires". It is ironic that this extremely experimental writer should gain his acclaim for compiling stories of that formulaic time. From such diverse works as "Galaxies Like Grains Of Sand", "Starswarm", "Barefoot In The Head", "The Saliva Tree", and "The Malacia Tapestry", Aldiss has put together an oeuvre that shouts and whispers at the mind and the heart. Some of his work is highly disturbing, malevolent. Some of it is blissfully pastoral. To read him at his pinnacle, pick up "Helliconia Spring" and "Helliconia Summer", his two latest novels. You will be lulled into the dreams of a master at work, reading novels that grip the spirit and move the soul, watching characters that you care about live and die and fail and succeed and grow up to have their children desert them, or stand by their side. Three-dimensional is the best phrase to describe Aldiss' work. Nothing is left unpainted, and the reader is always left with a sense of having read about much more than was on paper. One fantastic descriptive fragment illustrates what I mean - in "Helliconia Summer" he described the last breaths of dying men as "apostrophes on the possessive case of life". *That* is great writing. J. G. BALLARD is another unrecognized giant. Perhaps it is because his work is much more reminiscent of surrealist literature (such as Borges) than of science fiction. And given the usual science fiction optimism, Ballard's dark and oppressive tone doesn't quite fit in with the run of the mill. He is not a flowery writer, nor is he given to overemphasis. His moods and textures sink into the psyche and resurface much later. His work is often concerned with the human implications of technology, not in the facile and glib manner we have come to expect ("Gee, Biff! If I get inside a computer, will I be able to get out?"), but with depth and disturbing clarity. From "The Drowned World" to "Chronopolis" to "The Subliminal Man", Ballard has shown us the dark side of psychology and symbolism, the overwhelming nature of what we do to ourselves in the name of progress. R. A. LAFFERTY may seem a frivolous inclusion here. To be honest, sometimes his writing style gets to be infuriating, but what he is trying to say in his own convoluted manner is important and interesting enough to bear with his lapses. And often a second reading will show those apparent lapses in a different light. "Past Master" and "Fourth Mansions" are stylistic masterpieces of psychological insight and just plain weirdness. His short stories are often blunt and not articulated well enough, but still far above the pack - especially the collection "900 Grandmothers". Lafferty digs deep into uncomfortable territory with a distinctive style that challenges and provokes and cajoles the reader. URSULA LE GUIN - what can anyone say that hasn't already been said? Sure, she's written some fluff, but by and large, she's managed to write fantastically and consistently, and has improved with the passage of time. She's great. Her newer novels and short stories show an incredible grasp at greatness, especially "Malafrena" and the collection "Orsinian Tales", neither of which, coincidentally, are science fiction. I'm going to included SAMUEL R. DELANY mainly because I hold the hope that he has another novel of the stature of "Dhalgren" in him. In many ways, Delany is a wild talent, writing a wonderful paragraph here, a fantastic novel there, but sprinkling them amid inexplicable humdrum. Delany at his best is the premier stylist of science fiction, and it is his lot in life to be saddled with the epithet of being a "science fiction writer" in the eyes of American publishers. I do not profess to fully understand "Dhalgren", but I appreciate it as much as my flawed understanding permits. Delany has lent a serious air to discussions of science fiction literature, which has been a welcome change from the "Who Predicted What First" arguments that previously held sway as the field patted itself on the back for predicting all sorts of marvelous inventions. Regardless of his flaws, and he does have them, Delany is a consummate artist. "Dhalgren" is the "Ulysses" of science fiction. There are many more that I should include, many more that I should not, much that should have been said about the above, but time does not permit. I regret the omission of many new writers for whom I have high hopes. Well, that's just one man's opinion. Tune in next week for "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VI: The Short Story Mentality". ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 11 Jun 85 1037-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #208 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jun 85 1037-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #208 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 11 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 208 Today's Topics: Books - Science Fiction Poll & Tolkein, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (3 msgs) & New Space-Related Ride ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa Subject: SF Poll. Top 40 authors. Notes on format etc. Date: 9 Jun 85 07:30:48 GMT First off, i get the distinct impression that many people didn't vote for a book because they assume that everyone else voted for it - bad idea. If you like a book, and it's SF, vote for it, it doesn't matter how "well-known" or old it is. This is supposed to be a poll of the CANONICAL SF books - that is all the books which (most) people think everyone should read. Secondly, don't vote for "the series of books" this will only work if _I_ know the title of the series. In a similar way - don't say ALL of 's books should be in the list, such votes are immediately discarded since they add nothing to the poll. Note that this is a poll of the _BOOKS_ which you think should be read by everyone interested in SF, i don't care if you think Heinlein is God, just telling me so without recommending any of his books means that nothing you say counts. VOTE FOR BOOKS. Finally a lot of people wrote me to complain about the books in the list so far. Please remember i am only REPORTING the current state of the poll, if you have some book you like and it isn't mentioned write in and vote for it. About classification: it isn't necessary to supply me with a description of the entire book and where it fits in in the genre, something simple like one the following tags will do: first contact, faster-than-light, subgenre creation, many worlds, historical, fantasy, subworld creation, hard science, unique conception, exploration, interspecies relationships, psychology, linguistics, anthropology, religion, space-opera, whimsy, rites of passage, fun, adventure, superior writing, sword and sorcery etc. About the postings: ideally i would like a list ordered alphabetically by author with the titles of each authors books in an indented list following the authors name. But that isn't a necessary requirement. (It would be a big help though, since i receive about 3 letters a day each with about 20 books). To whet your appetite and maybe jog your memory, here is a list of the top 40 most cited authors so far: Asimov, Isaac Asprin, Robert Lynn Bester, Alfred Bradley, Marion Zimmer Bradbury, Ray Brin, David Brunner, John Brust, Steven Clarke, Arthur C. Clement, Hal de Camp, L. Sprague and Pratt, Fletcher Dickson, Gordon R. Donaldson, Steven R. Eddings, David Farmer, Philip Jose Ford, John Gibson, William Haldeman, Joseph Harrison, Harry Heinlein, Robert A. Herbert, Frank LeGuin, Ursula K. MacCaffrey, Anne McKinley, Robin May, Julian Niven, Larry Niven, Larry and Pournelle, Jerry Panshin, Alexei Piper, H. Beam Pohl, Frederick Rosenberg, Joel Smith, E.E. 'Doc' Stasheff, Christopher Tolkien, J.R.R. Vance, Jack Varley, John Wells, H.G. Wolfe, Gene Wyndham, John Zelazny, Roger Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ Subject: Sauron's character Date: 11 Jun 85 00:48:38 PDT (Tue) From: Alastair Milne I have seen a couple of remarks concerning characters in Lord of the Rings, particularly Sauron, which I think deserve response. Suggestions that there are flat characters in it greatly surprise me, since I feel that I know many of them now as people, that I would recognise and could talk with many of them as people, were I to meet them. But one person's meat is another's dioxin, and this may be a matter of taste, or the way one perceives things. However, complaining about a lack of characterisation for Sauron seems strange to me, and this is why: from the point of view of those who compiled this history (primarily Bilbo and Frodo, with advice from Gandalf and others of the Wise), Sauron really wasn't a person: he came closer to being an elemental force, a disembodied power. While he was not quite as inanimate as an earthquake or a landslide, his mind (that of a fallen Maia) was nothing that the hobbits, or humans, could understand. They could only see him as a remote power of malice, driven apparently (and according to Gandalf's word) by lust and fear, but not in ways that meant anything to them. To give a contrast, Denethor was much above Pippin in social stature, power, learning, aim, ambition -- in many ways, Pippin's superior, and very different from him. Yet Pippin could understand him, feel his griefs and his victories, fear for him, and love him: he could imagine what it was to be in Denethor's place. No hobbit could feel any such understanding for Sauron. (It is true that the wise could, to a certain extent: Gandalf and Galadriel both knew something of Sauron's mind, and could determine in advance how he would react to a particular situation; but for Sauron's position in the story to have benefited from this knowledge, it would have had to be passed on to the hobbits. And how would even Gandalf have done that, assuming he wanted to?) Nor did Sauron apparently want or encourage any such understanding. He hid himself far from all his enemies, shrouding himself in impenetrable shadows even deep within Mordor, always sending out his lieutenants and slaves to do his tasks, driving them and sensing through them, not to emerge or reveal himself until his final victory in the War of the Rings. Even the use of his right name was forbidden among his servants, who must always refer to him obliquely as "Lugburz" (Black Speech for "Dark Tower"). This incomprehensibility, the sense of an enemy beyond any understanding, and therefore much more to be feared, is not merely carried across well in Lord of the Rings: it is all-pervading. Nor did Tolkien "rectify" it in Silmarillion: Silmarillion is written from the point of view of those who could understand a Maia's mind, some of whom were in fact there during Morgoth's rebellion, when Sauron was first seduced. What comes to us from them are the insights that only creatures somewhat like him could have had. This is a very different perspective from that of Lord of the Rings, because its authors were very different from those of Lord of the Rings. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Jun 85 08:33 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: Problems in SF THE PROBLEMS OF DAVIS TUCKER'S PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY First off, as the person responsible for part 2 or your response, I'm really rather sorry about asking you if you thought you were Ghod - we all have off days and I guess that was one of mine. I'm also disappointed that people on the net would stoop to sending personal attacks to you rather than replies on the net where everyone can read them. Come on folks, at least have the guts to stand by what you say. Onward. In my opinion, the reason you have drawn such heated response (which may have been your intention to begin with - heated debate, that is) is the attitude you seem to take in your messages. It struck me as being arrogant to say the least. If your purpose in the Problems With SF series was to get people to read other forms of literature, you certainly went about it the wrong way. When you mercilessly attack something near and dear to someone, you put them on the defensive - something SF fans have been on (not as much lately) for a good while. Had you begun by telling us that you also enjoyed reading for fun and then had gone into persuasive arguments in favor of broadening our reading horizons (something I'm entirely in favor of - there's a lot of excellent work being done outside of SF that deserves to be read) you might have had more success. Instead we got, "That sucks, this doesn't, only an idiot would read that crap." Of course, you didn't use those words but that was the impression many people got from reading your messages. In your A SHORT RESPONSE you tell us "I realize that what I say is my opinion." Right after that you say "You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van Gogh, but you would be wrong." You've just contradicted yourself (I doubt you'll agree with me, though). If I like Rockwell better than Van Gogh does that mean I'm wrong? No, it means my opinion is different from yours. All a critic is is someone who has studied a certain subject significantly more than the average person. Their opinion may be more learned than mine, but mine is still valid! As you said, lighten up. You also claim to support your opinions with logic and fact. Crap. You give us your opinion of what is bad SF or bad fantasy and claim it is logic? The only "fact" you used is a quote from Phillip K. Dick. You're very proud of it, aren't you? You joyfully tell us that the "majority of responses have ignored the main point of each essay. No one chose to argue with Phillip K. Dick..." What can I do? I could give you a quote from me but you wouldn't accept it because my opinion would be wrong (to you). Remember, regardless of his stature in the field, P.K. Dick was giving his OPINION in the quote you used! Why do you assume all readers of science fiction believe that everything they read is incredibly wonderful literary art? Just like you, I read and enjoy "trash" novels. Novels that are fun to read. I don't think Battlefield Earth was literary art, but it was a Hell of lot of fun to read. This, I believe, is where You read for fun, but you also read for enlightenment into the human condition or whatever. I can get reality every day for free, I don't need to dish out money at the bookstore for it too. (No, that doesn't mean I don't read anything but "trash." I read a large number of books each year and have read quite a few I'm sure you would approve of. However, I don't feel it necessary to force others into my mold.) In closing I'd like to mention something I learned when I took a Shakespeare class a few years ago. These days, the Bard is considered to be one of the greatest of writers. During his day, his plays were considered to be trash. No reputable library had copies of them. They weren't literature then, they are now. Interesting. In future generations, the books you have spent so much time touting may be unknown and the books you have called trash may be considered classics. That's all for now. Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply Date: 9 Jun 85 06:01:08 GMT > henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes: >>You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not. >>Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else. >>Just because a majority > >Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but >you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For >edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by >R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michelangelo is not "just another" >sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any >trashcan, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may >believe otherwise. Quality may exist, but it exist only to the person deeming what he/she considers quality. There is no, *NO* absolute measure of quality. I veritably refuse to believe that there is. >>does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have >>mine. >Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ??? >(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary >masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!) Ah, so if someone like #OFTB, he is therefore delusioned? Perhaps he should be re-educated to remove this delusion? >>for enjoyment. If no one read for fun, the publishing industry >>would be practically non-existant. As for science fiction, it >>would never have gone beyond The War of the Worlds (an excellent >>book, but the field doesn't end with that one title). >Ah, but perhaps we could do just as well, with just half of what is >published. Does one have to read a lot of nonsense to have fun ??? Sometimes, yes. If you want something bad enough, you have to struggle to get it. Chris Andersen ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: A SHORT RESPONSE Date: 7 Jun 85 03:55:24 GMT > 5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van > Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is bad > art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them is to > lump greatness with mediocrity. Otherwise, there is no basis for > *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which is incredibly > egocentric. > Davis Tucker There is a distinction between good art and bad art, but that distinction is completely relative to the person drawing the dividing line. There is no *absolute* distinction. Also, what is wrong with a just plain "I like it"? You can listen to a thousand reviews on a story, movie, play, etc.; but the final judge in the matter is you. Chris Andersen ------------------------------ From: utzoo!kcarroll@topaz.arpa (Kieran A. Carroll) Subject: New Space-Related Ride Date: 9 Jun 85 19:53:35 GMT Are you interested in space travel? How about science fiction movies? How about Douglas Trumbull's new "Showscan" process? How about amusement park rides? How about motion-base flight simulators? If you're interested in any of the above, you may be interested in a project that's going on here in Toronto, Ontario. A private company has rented room underneath the CN Tower here to put together a unique attraction. Called something like "Ride into the Universe," it comprises a motion-base (like the ones airline and military pilots are trained to fly airplanes in) with a cab holding 40 (!) people, decked out to look like the inside of a futuristic passenger rocket. There are sound-effects and lighting controls to help set mood. The operators have commissioned a movie from Douglas Trumbull (the special-effects genius behind 2001, Silent Running, Brainstorm, etc.), using his new Showscan process (where the film is shown at a much higher frame rate than normal, resulting in much greater realism (I'm told)). The movie will be shown on a screen at the front of the cab. The movie depicts the launch of a spacecraft, seen from the inside, from the Earth's surface to the orbit of Jupiter. While this goes on, the cab will lean back 45 degrees, and start shaking and vibrating, with sound effects to simulate rocket noise. The whole process is computer controlled, and sounds mucho impressive to me. I can hardly wait! The opening date for the thing is sometime in September of this year. (and no, I don't work for the place.) I learned about this in the "L5 Talk" at the Ad Astra SF convention here in TO, this weekend. Similar attractions to open soon are (a) the Photon Impact (or Splat, or Great Canadian Adventure, or KAOS, or whatever; you and your friends get guns, and run around shooting at each other) type game, using optical guns, and computer-controlled sensing of hits and scoring, inside an old roller rink converted to look like the set of a science-fiction movie, and (b) the new IMAX movie, The Dream is Alive, photographed during various space shuttle flights, due to open here at Ontario Place this September. For SF/Space/film/gaming enthusiasts, it looks like TO will be a good place to be in the near future! Kieran A. Carroll @ U of Toronto Aerospace Institute {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!kcarroll ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jun 85 1003-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #209 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 12 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 209 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (3 msgs) & Wolfe, Films - Sequel to Alien & Rocky Horror & Warriors of the Wind, Television - Space: 1999 (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trwatf!root@topaz.arpa (Lord Frith) Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison Date: 11 Jun 85 17:28:43 GMT chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > off their short story 'Brillo' about a robot cop. The reality is > that SF authors get ripped off a LOT, mainly because they seem to > be afraid to fight back, either independently or through their > agents or SFWA. The Mystery Writers group, on the other hand, has > relatively little problem because they DO tend to police their > work. Harlan, who has been around that industry for a long time > and isn't known for his timidity, is also not afraid to go for > what he believes is his. If other authors or the SFWA took a more > active stance in hollywood, perhaps hollywood would take SF a bit > more seriously... How do you differentiate between rip-offs and coincidence? The idea of a robot cop doesn't sound so obtuse to guarantee another writer won't think of it again... and invent story lines around it. Harlan's stories may have been innovative in their day, but that doesn't mean that they are innovative now. Thus it seems presumptuous for him to conclude that he was ripped off. Terminator is somewhat more unique than a robot cop story. - Lord Frith UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: Ellison, THE TERMINATOR and the Destroyer Lawyer Date: 11 Jun 85 04:47:22 GMT > From: Michael Wahrman > In today's (May 30) Hollywood Reporter, there is a full page ad > that reads: Hemdale Film Corporation and HARLAN ELLISON are > pleased to announce that .. [then at the bottom, in small type] > > With special thanks to Destroyer Lawyer, Henry W. Holmes, Jr. > Does anyone know what this is about. Just to add to Jerry Boyajian's excellent answer, with regard to the "Destroyer Lawyer" bit -- this refers to Steve Gerber's legal battle with Marvel Comics over the ownership rights to "Howard the Duck". Gerber and Jack Kirby brought out a comic called "Destroyer Duck" in which Henry W. Holmes, Jr. (Gerber's lawyer in his case) appeared in super-hero garb. Hope this clears up the small type for Michael Wahrman. I'll get out of your way now .. g'day ! NAME: John A Mariani PHONE: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 UUCP: ...!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@uk.ac.ucl.cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp POST: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Engineering Building, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 11 Jun 85 23:10:59-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison (i.e., Plagiarism) ... From: rayssd!m1b@topaz.arpa (M. Joseph Barone) > Ellison stated that the idea of 'The Terminator' came from two > episodes he wrote for 'Outer Limits'. The episode names elude me > but the plots were: 1) the soldier from the future, Quallo > Kaprikni (sic?), and 2) Bob Culp as a robot from the future with a > glass hand ('Demon with a Glass Hand'?). He therefore sued for > copyright infringement and won. From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) > This seems a little thin. The producers would have had to copied > a lot more than the IDEA from Ellison for him to win a copyright > suit. Ideas are not copyrightable, only the particular expression > of those ideas are. If you could sue a writer for stealing an > idea, they could sue every writer in existence. When was the last > time you saw a TV show or a movie with an original plot? A writer > has to be very good just to come up with an interesting variation > of an old idea. > > I enjoyed the Terminator, even though I couldn't find a single > element in the plot that hadn't been used before. From Spider Robinson's story "Melancholy Elephants" in the book of the same name (TOR, 1985): "... Remember the /Roots/ plagiarism case? And the dozens like it that followed? Around the same time a writer named van Vogt sued the makers of a successful film called /Alien/, for plagiarism of a story forty years later. Two other writers named Bova and Ellison sued a television studio for stealing a series idea. All three collected. "That ended the the legal principle that one deos not copyright /ideas/ but /arrangements of words/. The number of word arrangements is finite, but the number of /ideas/ is /much/ smaller. Certainly, they can be retold in endless ways [sic] --- /West Side Story/ is a brilliant reworking of /Romeo and Juliet/. But it was only possible because /Romeo and Juliet/ was in the public domain. Remember too that of the finite number of stories that can be told, a certain number will be /bad stories/." This is an interesting perspective. But before I'm willing to give up, I'd like to at least know the order of magnitude of the number of ideas. Incidentally, the last sentence quoted above is my response to "The Problems of SF Today". We need to have writers who write bad books so it will enable other writers to write the good ones. If everyone were writing good books, we'd run out a lot sooner. (:-) Bruce Leban ...hplabs!leban leban@hplabs.csnet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 01:08:06 pdt From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Wolfe Fifth head of Cerberus is definitely my favorite. I thought The Devil in a Forest was almost as good, though it has a more narrative flavor. After five readings there are many remaining puzzles - who was the saint? was Wat also the barrow man? What historical references am I missing? The theme of the book seemed to me to be the mixed nature of good and evil (I have argued with Donn about this). -s ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 85 15:51 PDT From: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Aliens From the LA Times Calendar section, June 1st. Reprinted wihout permission. "BELIEVE IT OR NOT - When last seen in "Alien" (1979), chief operating officer Ripley (Sigourney Weaver) was playing Sleeping Beauty in the Nostromos escape pod. According to the next script, she'll awaken from hibernation some 50 years later, along with Jonesy the cat, in the tentatively titled "Aliens", the long-awaited 20th Century Fox sequel (written and directed by James Cameron) to begin filming this fall in London. But will anyone believe her story? Discovered by the crew of a salvage ship, Ripley's erratic behaviour - and the mysterious deaths of her fellow crew members (in the first film) - leads to her inquisition. The trial, in turn, results in a return visit to the decidedly strange planet that spawned the alien monster. There, the explorers discover a slew of aliens, of various forms, including close look-alikes of the original ravenous fellow. - From Pat H. Broeske" ------------------------------ From: warwick!alex@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter) Subject: Re: ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW Date: 11 Jun 85 06:43:32 GMT >> From: warwick!asz >> Actually it was a stage play first (presumably with audience >> participation). Perhaps you're in the wrong generation to enjoy >> the sheer brilliance of RHPS (:-)), which would NOT be the same >> without audience participation - it is essential to the whole >> ethos to have tthe participation. >(1) For a good many of us who had seen RHPS *many* times over the >course of three or so years without the audience participation >(a.p.), the movie is a delight all on its lonesome. The a.p. is >hardly "essential". Maybe it's preferential for you, but not for >everyone. >--- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) Perhaps a few more smiles would have been in order. I was merely saying that most people prefer RHPS with a.p. This does not make you wrong. Oh, and RHPS IS available on video in Britain - pity you're in the USA. As a matter of interest, how many RHPS fans out there listen to the soundtrack and do you do so for the music or to re-create the film ? --Alex ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!asz ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 23:06:57 PDT Subject: NAUSICAA - Warriors of the Wind (Movie) I have just seen the trailer to a new film to be released real soon. Entitled "Warriors of the Wind", it is the english adaption of a Japanese epic "Nausicca." [With an um-laut over the last A] This is a very good film. Seeing it in a language I didn't understand, I was fascinated by the visuals and intrigued by the story. The interesting aspect I loved was the non-human life (lower animals) deciding to end the human wars, by removing the humans! And the music is exceptional.. Am I getting to biased? I hope the adaption works...sigh. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 09:29 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Spaced 1999 I agree that the show had bad scripts galore. That is one of the major factors for it's demise. However, we must give credit where it is due, that is to both Martin Landau and Barbara Bain. Yucko! It made me hurt just to watch them. I swear if Barbara ever had a facial expression, I would have died! I have to go back and watch those Mission Impossibles to see if they did a better job. God, I hope so. They were worse than the damn scripts (or lack thereof :-). Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999, Gerry Anderson and Lew Grade Date: 11 Jun 85 01:51:57 GMT ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) writes: >Sci Fi productions. Lord LOW grade :-) I remember an abominable >series (which I think they got some of the sets for 1999 from) in >which the premise was another bunch of aliens out to conquer earth. >The series was named something like UFO, and was set in the 1980's. >The bad taste must be somewhere in the back of your mind. This is in defence of Lord Lew Grade. May I add this is an action I never thought I'd take! It is easy enough to slander LLG's work, in particular some of the films he has produced i.e "Raise The Titanic". However, let us not forget that it was LLG who bankrolled "The Prisoner" and all of Gerry Anderson's series. This leads us to another argument .. GA's work! Personally, I loved the puppet series and often quote them as the reason I became interested in SF in the first place. Here in Britain, many of the puppet shows are being repeated. "Captain Scarlet", made in 1966 (or thereabouts) and therefore nearly 20 years old, still looks pretty good (a darn sight better than "Terrahawks") and the story line -- Earth under attack by zombies from Mars -- isn't all that bad! If you like seeing puppets bleed, this is for you! Space 1999, discussed several times in this news group, came up to the bat with two strikes against it (is this the right Americanism?). First, the puppet shows which preceded it; second, the "Star Trek" which preceded it! Any show (and as far as I'm aware, there has only been "1999") in which a group of people trek round the stars is right up against it! We can only compare it with "Star Trek" and perhaps I'm being biased in saying it would have to be a damned good show to compete. Still, I would argue that the first season (with Barry Morse as Prof. Bergman) had some pretty good stuff in it. The second season (which Mr. Morse decided to leave -- hey, did they ever explain Prof. Bergman's disappearance? -- stop the Moon, I want to get off?) was "big monster of the week" was really terrible. As for Maya, well, that was too obvious a move by far! ST was a popular show with a popular alien (probably the most popular ever, until ET showed up!) so we'll have one too! But what really caused me to write was the UFO comments. UFO, to my mind, was not that bad a series! It was far superior to "1999" and some of the characterisation (especially Commander Straker) was very good indeed. Here was a commander who was not afraid to make decisions that might be unpopular with his underlings, even if they meant death for some of them. A man so dedicated to his work when forming SHADO he lost his wife and child. I would go so far as to say this is one of the most realistic characters ever presented in TV SF. And as for the special effects! In one particular episode I saw about 2 years ago at a con, featuring George Cole (at one time known as "Flash Harry" in the St. Trinian films but now as "Arfur" in "Minder" -- who is probably "Flash" grown up, now that I think about it!), there was a car - UFO chase. The cuts between live action and models were invisible and the climax of the car being forced to crash at a petrol station drew massive applause from the con audience -- who had clearly forgotten just how good UFO really was. Perhaps we (the people who grew up with GA productions, starting with "Torchy The Battery Boy", "Twizzle", "Four Feather Falls" and "Supercar") were all too young when UFO came out and the adult situations were not what we expected. Perhaps we just wanted to see "Thunderbirds" again. Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. Let me just finish by saying if LLG is fodder for attack, I think you Americans should consider some of your own producers. Glen Larson isn't as good as he used to be, and as for Irwin Allen ... I'll get out of your way now, thanks for listening! NAME: John A Mariani PHONE: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 UUCP: ...!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@uk.ac.ucl.cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp POST: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Engineering Building, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it Date: 11 Jun 85 08:27:17 GMT When I worked the calculation to push the moon out of the Earth's orbit and out in to space I got little more than 1/200 th of a lunar mass needed converting into K.E. This is because the moon was not travelling at interstellar velocity but at a much slower sub-light speed. In the calculation I assumed a terminal velocity of 0.1c ,mainly because if the moon went faster than 0.15c then an Eagle would never catch it. The reason for the moon meeting so many planets is that it was propelled into a 'time warp' and emerged in an area of space where the stars were packed much more tightly together (!). I am not saying that any of the above is possible or correct but if enough psuedo-science is applied, any sci-fi concept can be explained away. This is why Dr Who and Star Trek got away with it (warping the 'fabric' of space, indeed). Many of the 1999 episodes were set in interplanetary space and didn't include planets anyway e.g. BETA CLOUD,LAMBDA FACTOR. I don't think B.G. was a better series ,they relied much more heavily on 'library' shots e.g. seeing those same three vipers taking off each episode, and whenever I saw it I couldn't help feeling I'd seen this episode before. For me ,SPACE 1999 was the best sci-fi series of the 70's. Andy T. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jun 85 1028-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #210 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 12 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 210 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson & Ellison, Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Criticism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 10:29:18 PDT From: Chris Yoder Subject: Wounded Land series How does one express superlatives enough for the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant? There is so much going on in these books that it amazes me every time that I reread the series. Everything that Chris Andersen says about the books I agree with. As creative fantasy it's a work of art in my own (not so) humble opinion. Sure, there are some similarities between it and LoTR, just as there are between trees. I find these similarities superficial, and I also find that they aren't the kind of gross copy-cating that makes the Sword of Shannara such an infamous book. Personally, I believe that the Wounded Land series aren't so much good fantasy as an exposition on ethics couched as good fantasy. Thomas Covenant is a scuzwad, a jerk, an *sshole, and very, very real. I agree that he's not so much an anti-hero as a wimp who refuses to fight. If you don't hate him w/i the first 50 pages, you haven't been reading. But why do you hate him? It's not because he's evil, but because he's so ineffectual. He cannot, dare not, believe in the Land or become a power in it because then he will lose touch with the leprosy that will slowly eat away his body 'till he dies. All who accept and love him in the Land need him to defeat Lord Foul or they will die. Thomas Covenant must finally walk the thin line between his unbelief and the love that he has not experienced in the "real" world to a solution that he can live with. By the end of the third book you either (partially) understand Thomas Covenant, or you stopped reading the series 1/2 way through the first book. If you read these books carefully, you will see much of human nature at work. You will see love, love that believes w/o confirmation, hate, doubt, bone headed perseverance, in short the whole gauntlet of human emotion. These books, read deeply, are not for the faint of heart. I believe that they are also classics in every sense of the word. Read them, dig into them, enjoy them, be disturbed by them, hate/love Thomas Covenant, but read these books (think I'll go reread them again myself!). Chris Yoder UUCP {allegra|ihnp4}!scgvaxd!engvax!chris ARPA engvax!chris@cit-vax.ARPA ------------------------------ From: cvl!hsu@topaz.arpa (Dave Hsu) Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison Date: 12 Jun 85 03:08:49 GMT >> off their short story 'Brillo' about a robot cop. The reality is >> that SF authors get ripped off a LOT, mainly because they seem to >> be afraid to fight back, either independently or through their >> agents or SFWA. > > How do you differentiate between rip-offs and coincidence? The > idea of a robot cop doesn't sound so obtuse to guarantee another > writer won't think of it again... and invent story lines around > it. I seem to recall that OMNI mentioned this case 4 or 5 years ago. Ellison was apparently approached by (was it CBS?) a network for a storyline, and the 'Brillo' concept was the one they presented, only to be deep-sixed. Imagine your surprise if somebody produced something remarkably similar to a design of your own AFTER you've shown them how it works. Gee, we'd all go out, solicit inventions, turn them down, and then mass market the good ones for free. dave ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 Date: 11 Jun 85 21:41:08 GMT I was a long-term fan of previous Gerry Anderson series like Supercar, Fireball XL5, Thunderbirds and Stingray and it always struck me at the time what an achievement it was to make puppets look and act like humans. It took Space 1999 and its predecessor UFO to make me realise that he could also make humans look and act like puppets! (BTW - who remembers Four Feather Falls; or should I look in net.trivia?) Peter Kendell mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 Date: 11 Jun 85 18:30:43 GMT brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >Space 1999 had no concept of the nature of the galaxy, the >distances involved and the planetology. I have to agree. We could even hold a contest to see who can come up with the most incongruities and logical flaws. Two of my favorites were the never-ending supplies of people and "Eagle" space craft. They seemed to loose at least one and usually several of each every episode without creating any shortages, or even much concern. The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Criticism Date: 7 Jun 85 18:58:52 GMT wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >>is really true: Sturgeon's Law applies to everything, mainstream >>or not. >I completely agree; one of my responses in this exchange made >exactly this point (though I mistakenly attributed Sturgeon's Law >to Arthur Clarke). I have never made the point described here; if >you think I have, I've either failed to communicate correctly or >you've misread me. note please that I am not replying only to you -- one reason that I wrote this as an essay in itself was that it was not only your criticism to which I intended to respond. So, since I didn't make it clear, I'll do it explicitly for everyone to see I AM NOT CRITICIZING BILL IN PARTICULAR -- AND THE POINT I WAS RESPONDING TO HERE WAS ORIGINALLY MADE BY (I've lost his/her first name) TUCKER. I did an F of Bill's article for convenience, and because I wanted to respond in particular to points that had been made in his letter, too. >>Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were >>never able to become engrossed in the story? Where you were >>always conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book? Then I >>believe you were reading something that I call sterile. >> >>Now, note that two different people would believe different things >>sterile. I find it hard not to be conscious of ...reading ... the >>... book... (I promise I won't do it again) when I have read Moby >>Dick. > >As you point out, this is the problem I have (or had) with Lord of >Light. I found some of his techniques intruding on my enjoyment of >the story. Do you find Nabokov's fiction sterile, by the way? I blush to admit that I haven't read much Nabokov, except for interviews with him. When he was widely available, I was considered ``too young,'' and there is now so much back stuff to read. >He was a *very* self-conscious writer who deliberately played games >with the authorial presence not necessarily bad, just hard to pull off >Try rearranging the letters in Vivian Darkbloom's name ...). >Nabokov and Melville are two of my favorite authors, I think that Melville would have been one of mine, too, had I been born seventy-five years ago. But my little mind was warped by early years of reading less ornate authors, and I've never managed to adapt to the more ornate verbal style. But I'm not arguing that Melville is a bad author, just inviting commiseration and sympathy. As I said, my problem is not that _Moby_Dick_ is bad, but that it's too good: the pleasure of seeing the words work interferes with my ability to fall into the book, see the waves and hear the voices in the movie theatre in my head. >>that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- or if >>it is, I misstated this a little, because I *do* read Finnegan Wake for pleasure -- I love puns, and enjoy finding them in FW. But I can only do it a page at a time, and it's not really the *same* pleasure I was talking about. >know who have made a study of Finnegan's Wake claim to get great >enjoyment from tackling the task, however, so I suspect that this >is another case where a certain amount of personal taste is >involved. Perhaps it's like the guy who likes to beat himself over >the head with the baseball bat because it feels so good when he >stops. :-) I kind of think it's more like jigsaw puzzles -- but not like reading fiction. >>But the idea originally proposed was that we who prefer to read SF >>should get our minds out of the ghetto and find out what *real* >>fiction is like. > >...that SF in general is not real fiction, or put down the entire >SF genre. If you think I did, I suggest you reread my posting. Once again, let me stress that I was not necessarily replying to only Bill-Ingogly words, but rather taking up the side of the SF-is-okay people in general against the Forces Of Literature. Knowing you as a fan I took this as being (on your part) hyperbole. I realize that you are partial to SF. Let me recast once-and-for- all what I felt had been the thesis proposed: that most or all of SF was crap, that most mainstream fiction was better, and that SF readers who thought otherwise should get their minds out of the pulp-lined gutters of the paperback ghettos, and learn what *good literature* was, so they wouldn't say these foolish things. >Yes, I've made extreme statements I firmly approve -- can't have a fun discussion unless you take a strong stance. >What I've reacted strongly to in this group and others in the past >are what I've felt were absolutist statements that pigeonholed >whole genres of fiction, types of music, or groups of people >unfairly. But you see, that is the same thing to which I am reacting -- statements that SF readers don't know what ``good'' is, and refuse the ``good stuff'' in favor of endless serial episodes masquerading as novels. The statements to which I've been responding have been very strong -- not just ``there's a lot of crap out there'' but ``the reason there's so much crap out there is that you turkies can't tell the crap from good stuff.'' I know you know better, and I admit that your posting was not quite this strong (although I certainly felt the out-of-the-ghetto phrase suggests it -- but let that pass; hyperbole is fun, and other postings on this subject have certainly been that strong, or seemed to have been.) I stick to my original point -- there is (in my mind) AT LEAST as much trash out there in Literature (proportionately) as there is in SF. >>The usual response to this has been an essentially elitist one: >>``if you were a literary sophisticate, you wouldn't find it so.'' >>...believe that there is more good writing in SF than in >>mainstream are simply near-illiterates, as the more strenuous >>pro-literary voices seem to have claimed. > >Then you've had one or more bad experiences with 'English Lit' >people that you shouldn't generalize from. I've known several >people, undergraduates and graduate students alike, who were rabid >SF fans in first-rate English Lit departments (University of >Virginia and University of Iowa at Iowa City, for example). I think >this is an unfair generalization. Maybe so -- it's been nearly ten years since I was an English major, and that didn't last very long. But it has been my experience, and has been an experience shared by many of my acquaintances who have been in the same position. Hard to tell if a generalization is unfair unless you can examine the whole class about which you are generalizing. But my experience is at least partly based on the responses I've had from my near-stepmother, who is busily getting a Ph.D. at Drake, after having been at UI/Iowa City for some time. I don't think I quite follow the point of SF fans at the Lit Departments -- I don't believe that there is some reason English majors can't like SF. I just think that the current ``direction'' of formal academic English and what is being called ``Literature'' is such that, to be respectable within these departments, an SF-fan/Lit Major had better praise the obscurity over _Dahlgren_ over the more clear style and form of something like _Ender's Game_. (Aside: if anyone hasn't read _Ender's Game_ yet, do so immediately. It's bloody wonderful.) >And defending the claim that there's more good writing in SF by >accusing myself and others of character assassination isn't a fair >argument in my book. If you took the phrase about ``near-illiterates'' that way, well, I'm sorry. But that's the way the ``ghetto'' statement read to me, that is even more so the way that ?? Tucker's articles have read to me, and I stand by it. Note that ``near-illiterate'' refers in no way to one's character -- but does seem to me to say clearly in few words the attitude that I felt was being taken. >Certainly, graduate or undergraduate programs in English encourage >their students to conform in more or less subtle ways; And as far >as 'accepted interpretations' goes, I think you're talking about >critical consensus regarding quality judgements in fiction. .... >My feeling is that the 'lit-crit' consensus is correct in many >cases, and just plain wrong in others. And I agree. But *my* feeling is that the consensus is often *compelled* by exactly those forces which encourage conformity. (I hope my ellipsis haven't resulted in me taking you out of context but I was trying to abstract what I think is an essential point.) And I see these ``up out of the gutters! We're here to save you, and lead you to the true light of Good Literature'' sorts of statements as an attempt to get the consideration of SF to get in line. My problem is that I suspect that they're standing in the wrong line, on what I feel are strong philosophical and literary grounds >Guess what? It's no different in any other field of intellectual >endeavor, including the sciences and engineering disciplines. It's just a little harder, because we can't go out and pick up a VTGLM (Vacuum Tube Good Literature Meter) to make our measurments with. But I've proposed a VTGLM of my own (admittedly influenced by reading a number of EngLit people whom I admire, most notably John Gardner): does it encourage the reader to enter into the Dream with the dreamer? By my measurements, more SF and fantasy (and mystery fiction, and thrillers, and 19th century novellists who were writing for a living, like Dickens) get a high rating than what has been offered to me as ``literature.'' Admittedly, the form of ``meter'' I'm suggesting does not really allow us to agree, or even allow me to repeat my own measurements -- but it does allow me to have a reasoned basis for my assertion that the proportion of crap is higher in Literature than in SF. I'll listen to other arguments, and I still try to read outside SF (for example, I'm reading Montaigne now), but I've not yet been offered any other arguments. >>A postscript: Bill Ingogly has mentioned _Lord_of_Light_ as an >>example of SF that he disliked, especially mentioning the ``he was >>called Mahasamatman, and Binder,... but he preferred to be called >>just Sam''...sophistication required to read it, perhaps -- just >>perhaps -- the sophistication that was lacking was not Zelazny's. > >I've already admitted that it's been ten years since I read the >book. I am not an unsophisticated reader, and you know it; just a >human being with a memory that's sometimes defective like everyone >else. The quote, as you and at least one other poster have pointed >out, is little like my recollection of it. If I've unfairly >criticized Zelazny, I apologize. Honest-to-Ghod, I am someday going to get a function key for sarcasm added to this terminal. You are right -- I know perfectly well that you are not an unsophisticated reader. Instead, this was an attempt to point out that allowing ``sophistication'' to be a measure of Good Literature can be a two-bladed sword. (By the way -- I never took that as a real quote at all, but as a parody intended to point up what you felt was a bad technique. If you felt I was accusing you of misquoting, I'm sorry -- I was really accusing you of crafty and well-composed exaggeration in order to make a point.) Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Jun 85 1043-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #211 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 13 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 211 Today's Topics: Art - Stolen Artworks, Books - Donaldson & Spectra Books, Films - Rocky Horror, Miscellaneous - Criticism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jun 85 10:28:14 EDT From: ARAMINI@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: stolen paintings Recently a Science Fiction artist by the name of Tom Kidd had an exhibition at Columbia University. Thirteen paintings were stolen from the exhibit. Many were book covers and should be identifiable. Here is a list of titles of the paintings. In most cases they are they are the same as the book, and the authors of the books are listed. If you see any of the original paintings please contact the artist at: Tom Kidd 19 Broadway Terrace #2D NY, NY 10040 Phone (212)569-1421 1) Oath of the Renunciate (cover of a Marion Zimmer Bradley Book) 2) Mallworld cover illistration Somtoco Suchathal 3) Silent Invaders Robert Silverberg 4) Lord of the Skies (I think this was an AMAZING SF cover) 5) Shadows out of Hell Andrew Offutt 6) One Step From Earth Harry Harrison 7) The Years Best SF (1984?) Gardner Dozois 8) Trojan Orbit Mack Renyolds (Joshua's Tomb) 9) The Imperiator Plot Steven Spruill (sleepwalkers world) 10) Dialogue with Darkness Poul Anderson 11) Firewatch Connie Willis 12) The Frozen Wave Robert Vardeman 13) Meanwhile (?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 12:58 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Thomas Covenant I also must give these books my recommendation as MUST reads. Truly imaginative and different from the other *regular* fantasy. Donaldson did not follow the old standards when he used the normal fantasy elements in these stories. The giants were awesome, the ur-viles were completely new to me, the power and the Land were as un-Tolkien as anything I've read. In all six of the books, I found that there was only one thing that I even noticed to dislike, and that didn't bother me, because I had nothing else to do. I was very depressed, and these books made me fight it, along with Covenant. The problem I refer to is that Donaldson can just go on for days about the littlest things. We get pages and pages of Tom worrying and fretting. We get descriptions that border on novels themselves. I mean really! It got to the point where I would be ready to jump a few pages ahead. Luckily I read over 500 words a minute, and I know how to skim very well. I figure that and boredom were the only things that enabled me to finish the books within my lifetime, despite the wonderful intrigue of the story. So, I just say beware. If you can't handle an *incredibly* verbose writer, these books may not be for you, but if you have a few weeks of free time, and the patience to enjoy a very symbolic and thought provoking story, then please, sink your eyes into these books. I enjoyed the sequel trilogy even more than the first. Good stuff, Maynard! Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ From: wenn@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (John Wenn) Subject: Spectra Books Date: 12 Jun 85 10:59:41 GMT I was browsing through my neighborhood book store, when I saw "Free Sampler. Spectra. An Introduction to Eight Remarkable Works of Imaginative Fiction." It contains short excerpts (~10 pages) from: "The Book of Kells" by R.A. MacAvoy "Child of Fortune" by Norman Spinrad "The Christening Quest" by Elizabeth Scarborough "The Darkling Wind" by Somtow Sucharitkul "The Dream Years" by Lisa Goldstein [The Red Magician] "The Last Rainbow" by Parke Godwin "Polar Fleet" by Warren Norwood "West of Eden" by Harry Harrison Apparently this is an attempt to reach beyond the usual circle of SF readers. Nowhere in the sampler are the dreaded words "SF", "Science Fiction", or even [yesterday's buzz words] "Speculative Fiction". They are all "Imaginative Fiction", or occasionally "Fantasy". They go to great lengths to explain the IF can take place anywhere in space, time, or imagination. However, they were not above mentioning that an author was nominated for a Nebula or Hugo; won a World Fantasy Award, John W. Campbell Award, or American Book Award; or is well respected "in the field". As for the books themselves, the excerpts were long enough to give a feel for what the books are like. I'm looking forward with even greater anticipation to the R.A. MacAvoy and Lisa Goldstein books. I may even pick up a few others that I might not have otherwise. This seems like an interesting marketing ploy. I hope it works. Lord knows that the best SF deserves a wider readership than it is getting. (What constitutes 'best' has been flamed about for the last month. No need to get into that argument). /john ------------------------------ From: wuphys!mff@topaz.arpa (Swamp Thing) Subject: Rocky Horror Show (Not the movie) Date: 9 Jun 85 22:03:53 GMT I saw a stage version of the Rocky Horror Show here in St. Louis recently. There was a "chorus" of people dressed like various characters sitting in the audience, and they greatly increased the comedic value of the play. I believe they were mostly people who frequent the local weekend showing of the movie, and while there responses to the play were intended to look spontaneous, I suspect that they weren't. Nevertheless, they were quite funny. Their interaction with the narrator was particularly good. The play just wouldn't have been the same without them. Actually, the only dissapointment was the "star", Wendy O'Williams as ... oh crap, now I can't remember. Anyways, she played Riff-Raf's female buddy, you, know, the one who he takes over with him towards the end. Anyways, she was pretty much of a dud. For those of you who don't remember, Wendy is the ex-lead singer of the ex-punk band The Plasmatics. She's the one who was arrested for NOT wearing shaving cream on stage in Cleveland. The other players were all local theatre type and were very good. Mark F. Flynn Department of Physics Washington University St. Louis, MO 63130 ihnp4!wuphys!mff ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Criticism Date: 7 Jun 85 22:42:56 GMT crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >note please that I am not replying only to you -- one reason that I >wrote this as an essay in itself was that it was not only your >criticism to which I intended to respond. ... I wasn't quite sure, since you were responding to more than one person at once. Here are a few comments on your reply to my reply to my reply >I blush to admit that I haven't read much Nabokov, except for >interviews with him. When he was widely available, I was >considered ``too young,'' and there is now so much back stuff to >read. It's possible some of the people in this group might enjoy his fiction. I didn't include Nabokov or some other people I enjoy and admire on my list because they're dead. Nabokov, by the way, enjoyed SF and all other 'popular' fiction, including things like comic strips and detective magazines. He wrote a play, the Waltz Invention, which is science-fictional in its subject matter. Also, most of his fiction has certain fantastical aspects. For example, Ada, or Ardour is set in a fictional earth in which Canada is apparently joined or close to Russia in some way; certain philosophers on this alternate earth believe that when people dream they're actually visiting a real place in another universe or dimension called Terra (i.e., our own earth). >Knowing you as a fan I took this as being (on your part) hyperbole. >I realize that you are partial to SF. For all those of you out there who still don't know it: yes, I do like SF. Yes, my statements did involve hyperbole. Heh, heh ... I think all of us can use a good shaking up once in a while. >I firmly approve -- can't have a fun discussion unless you take a >strong stance. I think it HAS been a fun discussion (but I'm certainly not suggesting it stop), and I feel I've learned some things from you, Charlie, and from the other responders on this topics. Thanks to everyone. >But you see, that is the same thing to which I am reacting -- >statements that SF readers don't know what ``good'' is, and refuse >the ``good stuff'' in favor of endless serial episodes masquerading >as novels. The statements to which I've been responding have been >very strong -- not just ``there's a lot of crap out there'' but >``the reason there's so much crap out there is that you turkies >can't tell the crap from good stuff.'' I know you know better, and >I admit that your posting was not quite this strong (although I >certainly felt the out-of-the-ghetto phrase suggests it -- but let >that pass; hyperbole is fun, and other postings on this subject >have certainly been that strong, or seemed to have been.) I stick >to my original point -- there is (in my mind) AT LEAST as much >trash out there in Literature (proportionately) as there is in SF. I've said it too. Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on some of the postings on this topic. And the 'out of the ghetto' phrase WAS intended to be hyperbole (hyperbolic?); I don't REALLY think SF is a ghetto, but I still believe many SF fans I've met are narrow minded about the values of fiction outside the genre. Many mainstream readers, critics, and writers are narrow minded about the values of SF, however; some of John Gardner's comments on SF in his book called (I think) On Becoming A Writer are rather unfair, I thought, but others are right to the point. >Maybe so -- it's been nearly ten years since I was an English >major, and that didn't last very long. But it has been my >experience, and has been an experience shared by many of my >acquaintances who have been in the same position. Hard to tell if >a generalization is unfair unless you can examine the whole class >about which you are generalizing. > >But my experience is at least partly based on the responses I've >had from my near-stepmother, who is busily getting a Ph.D. at >Drake, after having been at UI/Iowa City for some time. Yeah, it can be an unfortunate experience. When I was an English Lit major at Iowa City, I got bloody sick and tired of the graduate students' constant toadying to the instructors. The instructor would come up with a particularly juicy bon mot, and the grad students would snigger appropriately. And many 'lit-crit' types ARE unbearably arrogant snobs. A fellow I knew at Univ. of Virginia had finished his PhD dissertation in English and was looking for a faculty position. He told me he would only accept a position at a MAJOR department. After two or three months, he told me he didn't know what to do because he couldn't find a position worthy of his talents, and that sometimes he was tempted to do away with himself. God's gift to academia, I guess. This fellow also was convinced that EVERYTHING was trash except for the two or three writers he had studied and admired: Walt Whitman and Robert Lowell were two of them. We criticized each others' writing, but he NEVER had anything good to say about anything I'd written. Funny thing is, he never had anything good to say about his own stuff, either. Other English grad student friends of mine, on the other hand, have been much more fun to be around, and many of them have been admirers of a lot of SF. My experience is that the sour apples are plentiful, but that in some English departments at least they haven't managed to ruin the whole barrel. I'd even consider taking a graduate course or two in English Lit to meet people and exchange ideas. And that was one of the nicest things about being in a place like Iowa City: there are kindred souls around if you take the trouble to go out and meet them. Unfortunately, I think English departments do tend to be cliqueish, but if you find the right clique: oh, it can be a great experience. > I just think that the current ``direction'' of formal academic >English and what is being called ``Literature'' is such that, to be >respectable within these departments, an SF-fan/Lit Major had >better praise the obscurity over _Dahlgren_ over the more clear >style and form of something like _Ender's Game_. Well, I think all departments have their rogue elephants. Somebody or other tells a story about the time Nabokov was teaching at Cornell; the teller was a junior faculty member (or something) at the time. One day, Nabokov was talking to him and asked him if he'd been following the action on one of the trashier soap operas on the tube. The fellow's jaw dropped, needless to say (this story is related in the preface to Appell's annotated edition of Lolita, by the way). It's interesting to note that this story is important because of what it says about the critic who repeated it as well as what it says about Nabokov's own eclectic tastes. Appell (sp?) certainly wasn't recounting it to put down Nabokov as an oddity. What you say may be true of many (or even most) people in formal academic English, but it certainly ain't true of all of them. >>My feeling is that the 'lit-crit' consensus is correct in many >>cases, and just plain wrong in others. >And I agree. But *my* feeling is that the consensus is often >*compelled* by exactly those forces which encourage conformity. > > And I see these ``up out of the gutters! We're here to save you, >and lead you to the true light of Good Literature'' sorts of >statements as an attempt to get the consideration of SF to get in >line. My problem is that I suspect that they're standing in the >wrong line, on what I feel are strong philosophical and literary >grounds Hmmm... I don't quite see what's going on here. Are you saying the methods used to make statements about literature are invalid in general, are invalid when applied to SF, or making some other point entirely? I think academia tends to crank out conformists in all fields, certainly, but I think there has been a WIDE range of approaches to the criticism of literature tried out in the last fifty years or so. Are they all bad? That is, are you rejecting the notion of criticism entirely, rejecting certain schools, proposing reforms to existing approaches, proposing a whole NEW way of looking at SF, or something else? For example, are there any of the books of criticism written specifically on SF that you admire (e.g., LeGuin's, Amis's, etc.)? >But I've proposed a VTGLM of my own (admittedly influenced by >reading a number of EngLit people whom I admire, most notably John >Gardner): does it encourage the reader to enter into the Dream with >the dreamer? By my measurements, more SF and fantasy (and mystery >fiction, and thrillers, and 19th century novellists who were >writing for a living, like Dickens) get a high rating than what has >been offered to me as ``literature.'' The problem here, of course, is that the secret handshake that works for your mind may do nothing for mine, and vice versa. But I do have to agree that a lot of modern fiction is sterile for precisely this reason: too many of us have forgotten the huddle around the fire, and what the telling of the ancient tales told us about ourselves. A few years back I read an article somewhere that talked about the death of the mainstream novel (a death which has since failed to materialize, of course) at least as a vehicle for 'serious' writers. The author pointed out that the novel was alive and kicking in the SF genre, because Story is the very essence of SF. I think we both admire Italo Calvino, Charlie; he's certainly one contemporary writer outside the SF genre who knows how to tell a hell of a story. Readers of this group should check out Cosmicomics, T Minus Zero, and the Baron In The Trees, for example. > Instead, this was an attempt to point out that allowing >``sophistication'' to be a measure of Good Literature can be a >two-bladed sword. The point's well taken. Thanks for an excellent response to my posting. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Jun 85 1054-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #212 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 13 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 212 Today's Topics: Books - King & Panshin & Spider Robinson, Films - Rocky Horror, Miscellaneous - Criticism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: CYCLE OF THE WEREWOLF by Stephen King Date: 12 Jun 85 18:27:13 GMT CYCLE OF THE WEREWOLF by Stephen King (Illustrations by Berni Wrightson) Signet, 1985 (copyright 1983) A book review by Mark R. Leeper The current trend in science fiction seems to be to take popular novelettes, illustrate them, and then publish them--puffed up with lots of blank space--as books unto themselves, with price tags between $7 and $10. Steven King's horror novelette "Cycle of the Werewolf" was originally published as a hard-back with illustrations by comic-book artist Berni Wrightson for some absurd price. Now Signet has reprinted it as a paperback, with the Wrightson illustrations, at the comparatively cheap price of $8.95, so you can imagine what the full price was. For that price, you get about fifty short pages of text, the Wrightson illustrations, and a lot of white space. The story is about the year-long campaign of a werewolf. It is broken into twelve chapters, one for each month. Each takes place on the night of the full moon in that month (it happens in a rather idealized year in which there is precisely one full moon each calendar month). Most of the chapters just chronicle one werewolf attack. With all that attacking, there is very little time for any real plot development. In fact, there is very little in the way of characters continuing from chapter to chapter. That makes the plot violent but very minimal. Wrightson's illustrations are like very good comic-book art. His vision of a werewolf is much like the title character in Frank Frazetta's painting "The Werewolf" or like the lycanthropes in the film THE HOWLING. If it's borrowed, at least it is borrowed from the best. If there is any werewolf that would scare me to run into, it is certainly the sort of werewolf shown in THE HOWLING. It is sort of a grizzly bear with a wolf's head. That's worse than anything Lon Chaney, Jr. ever turned into. So the illustrations are all right, but expect to pay a real premium for them. There is hardly enough story to rate here, but overall the package get -1 on a scale of -4 to +4. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: masscomp!carlton@topaz.arpa (Carlton Hommel) Subject: Re: Sequels - The Galactic Pantograph Date: 12 Jun 85 03:55:49 GMT Joel Upchurch writes: >Speaking of sequels did Alexis Panshin ever get around to writing >'The Galactic Pantograph'? Alexis Panshin can be seen in the Huckster's Room at area cons. He gets a much bigger cut of the purchase price of his books if he sells them himself. (He also does a booming autograph buisness.) I asked him the above question at Philcon 1979, and he said that the publisher (Ace) never bought it. The impression I got was that he had sent around an outline, but no one wanted to sell it. I asked him about the title in February, at Boskone, and he held out no hope about the book seeing light then, either. Carl ------------------------------ Subject: Spider Robinson Date: 12 Jun 85 23:05:04 PDT (Wed) From: Dave Godwin Somebody out there asked about the book 'Night of Power' that is listed in the front of Melancholy Elephants. This book is an example of changing the name of a book between production and publication, something that happens now and again. 'Night of Power' was originally to be called 'Race War', and Spider read the first chapter or so to a bunch of folks (me, for one) at the last WorldCon. It sounds really good. The reason the book is listed as if it were in print is because the publisher is going to have it on the shelves Real Soon Now. We've just gotta be patient. Even if it is new Robinson. Dave ------------------------------ From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot lear) Subject: Re: re: ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW Date: 12 Jun 85 18:55:40 GMT > Give me a break. Are you trying to teach your grandpappy how to > suck eggs? > > (1) For a good many of us who had seen RHPS *many* times over the > course of three or so years without the audience participation > (a.p.), the movie is a delight all on its lonesome. The a.p. is > hardly "essential". Maybe it's preferential for you, but not for > everyone. The a.p. was funny and enjoyable for the first few > times, but after a while it got very annoying. There are those of > us who like the *movie*, and would rather see *it* than the > audience. First of all, the audience participation changes - not the movie. So if there were ever something bored of, it would be seeing RHPS 70+ times without the "a.p.". > (2) It's debatable whether or not RHPS would have become a cult > film without the a.p. Other cult films, HAROLD AND MAUDE and KING > OF HEARTS to name two, certainly don't require a.p. And it seems > to me that the a.p. started *after* RHPS acheived cult status. Please define "Cult Status" so that I can understand what you're talking about. > (3) RHPS did indeed start out as a stage play, but *without* a.p. > The movie was first released in late 1975, and the a.p. didn't get > into full swing until 1979 or so. I KNOW that is not true as I have friends who went for the "a.p." in '77. > (3) As for renting a videotape, I wish I *could*. But, contrary to > popular belief, RHPS has *not* yet been released on tape (in the > US, at least). And it's probably because 20th Century Fox is > afraid that it will cut into the theater rentals, thus it's quite > likely that the a.p. is *preventing* Steven and I from enjoying > the movie in the privacy of our homes. > --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) "Life sucks and then you die." If you really miss RHPS get the film. (Find a friend in England or something). However contrary to your beliefs *MANY* people go to the movie for the "a.p." and probably would not go without it! eliot uucp: [{allegra,seismo,ihnp4}!topaz!lear] arpa: [Lear@RU-BLUE.arpa] ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Criticism Date: 6 Jun 85 22:04:51 GMT crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: >The point that I think has been offered is that SF writing is >terrifically derivative and (somehow) less ``good'' than mainstream >writing. Just to warn everyone ahead of time, I don't feel that >this is really true: Sturgeon's Law applies to everything, >mainstream or not. I completely agree; one of my responses in this exchange made exactly this point (though I mistakenly attributed Sturgeon's Law to Arthur Clarke). I have never made the point described here; if you think I have, I've either failed to communicate correctly or you've misread me. >Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were >never able to become engrossed in the story? Where you were always >conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book? Then I believe >you were reading something that I call sterile. > >Now, note that two different people would believe different things >sterile. I find it hard not to be conscious of ...reading ... the >... book... (I promise I won't do it again) when I have read Moby >Dick. As you point out, this is the problem I have (or had) with Lord of Light. I found some of his techniques intruding on my enjoyment of the story. Do you find Nabokov's fiction sterile, by the way? He was a *very* self-conscious writer who deliberately played games with the authorial presence (in one of his novels, for example, a character goes insane when he discovers he's a character in a book; and in Lolita, Humbert Humbert mentions a play or book called 'My Cue' by Vivian Darkbloom. Try rearranging the letters in Vivian Darkbloom's name ...). Nabokov and Melville are two of my favorite authors, so perhaps we're dealing with a difference in personal taste here. More than one literary critic has knocked Nabokov for playing these games with his readers' heads, so you're not alone if you dislike him. But does that make him a bad writer? >I find it impossible to read Moby Dick for pleasure. I very much >doubt that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- or >if it is, it is only because years of study have made the reader so >familiar with the language involved (which means learning how to >handle puns across several european languages which are written in >the form of euphonic Scotch telegrams) that this language barrier >is no longer a problem. I believe that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is >sterile. I totally agree. I also would call it self-indulgent. The few people I know who have made a study of Finnegan's Wake claim to get great enjoyment from tackling the task, however, so I suspect that this is another case where a certain amount of personal taste is involved. Perhaps it's like the guy who likes to beat himself over the head with the baseball bat because it feels so good when he stops. :-) >Bill has mentioned several times the various writers who are >involved in meta-fiction: Calvino has been prominent. I don't feel >that meta-fiction is *inherantly* sterile: _Cosmicomics_ is an >example of a break with conventional ficiton which I don't think is >sterile at all. However, writing meta-fiction, writing fiction in >which conventions are challenged, is a risky business: it's hard >for the reader to co-operate in understanding the dream. Calvino >sems to manage; for me John Barth does not. Again, I agree; Calvino is a blast, and Barth is a bore. For me, of course. I'm sure both of us have known people who greatly enjoyed Giles Goat-Boy, or Chimera, or one of Barth's other books. Gunter Grass is another writer who's an acquired taste, I think. >But the idea originally proposed was that we who prefer to read SF >should get our minds out of the ghetto and find out what *real* >fiction is like. We both know SF readers who read nothing but SF; I have one of them in my family. From postings to this group over the past two years, my feeling is that there are readers in this group who hold the mistaken opinion that SF is the only place where most interesting/ valid/worthwhile things are being done today in fiction. I certainly did *not* say that SF in general is not real fiction, or put down the entire SF genre. If you think I did, I suggest you reread my posting. Yes, I've made extreme statements (the use of the word ghetto was extreme). The intention was to get people's attentions and spark some exchanges on this topic, and it seems to have worked. I care a great deal about SF, but I care a great deal about a lot of fiction written outside the genre as well. >However, my experience with what has been propounded as >``literary'' is that, for me at least, the ``literary'' fiction is >nearly completely sterile. The few ideas that are proposed are >puerile or dull, the characters are often people who I wouldn't >want to talk to in person, and the situations are usually >intolerably banal. I can't make the dream vivid: the author's >style, choice of words, non-standard sentence structure or simple >lack of identification with his own characters have made it >impossible for me. Try replacing "literary fiction" in this paragraph with "SF." Bad fiction is bad fiction, no matter what the genre. And all of us (myself included) have to admit that fiction fulfills different needs for different people. We all have our own ways of approaching a story, and I suspect we all get something different from a story. What I've reacted strongly to in this group and others in the past are what I've felt were absolutist statements that pigeonholed whole genres of fiction, types of music, or groups of people unfairly. >The usual response to this has been an essentially elitist one: >``if you were a literary sophisticate, you wouldn't find it so.'' >Well, maybe so: but my experience with English Lit people has been >that becoming a ``literary sophisticate'' really means ``learn the >code words and accepted interpretations. Learn to fit in.'' >Perhaps those of us that believe that there is more good writing in >SF than in mainstream are simply near-illiterates, as the more >strenuous pro-literary voices seem to have claimed. Then you've had one or more bad experiences with 'English Lit' people that you shouldn't generalize from. I've known several people, undergraduates and graduate students alike, who were rabid SF fans in first-rate English Lit departments (University of Virginia and University of Iowa at Iowa City, for example). I think this is an unfair generalization. And defending the claim that there's more good writing in SF by accusing myself and others of character assassination isn't a fair argument in my book. Certainly, graduate or undergraduate programs in English encourage their students to conform in more or less subtle ways; this is more a problem with academia in general than with literary criticism or the formal study of English (or other) literature. What makes you think students in these programs are all too short-sided to see that these problems exist? And 'code words' and 'accepted interpretations' exist in all disciplines, including computer science. Every field has jargon; in many cases, it streamlines the communication process between practitioners of a discipline. This is true of a lot of the jargon that's involved in 'lit-crit bulls__t,' as another poster recently put it. And as far as 'accepted interpretations' goes, I think you're talking about critical consensus regarding quality judgements in fiction. A lot of people in this newsgroup seem to want to believe that quality judgements are meaningless, since (apparently) anything which can't be described by an algorithm is subjective. I think this is wrongheaded, simply because so much of human culture and human behavior is subjective. My feeling is that the 'lit-crit' consensus is correct in many cases, and just plain wrong in others. Guess what? It's no different in any other field of intellectual endeavor, including the sciences and engineering disciplines. >A postscript: Bill Ingogly has mentioned _Lord_of_Light_ as an >example of SF that he disliked, especially mentioning the ``he was >called Mahasamatman, and Binder,... but he preferred to be called >just Sam'' section as being a part of the book that he especially >disliked. The particular comparison he's used was to that awful >``you can call me Jim, or you can call me...'' comedian. Well, >okay, clearly this business broke the clarity of the dream for >Bill. > >However, as a long-time student of the various sutras and storys of >the life of the Buddha, I really enjoyed it. That was a very >nicely used parody or pastiche of a stylized phrase that happens >over and over again in Sutras and in Vedic literature, and really >gave me the feel that this was a story in the Eastern sort of world >that the book is meant to evoke. If indeed the measure of >``literature'' is the sophistication required to read it, perhaps >-- just perhaps -- the sophistication that was lacking was not >Zelazny's. I've already admitted that it's been ten years since I read the book. I am not an unsophisticated reader, and you know it; just a human being with a memory that's sometimes defective like everyone else. The quote, as you and at least one other poster have pointed out, is little like my recollection of it. If I've unfairly criticized Zelazny, I apologize. -- Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Jun 85 1113-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #213 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 13 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 213 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (4 msgs) & Panshin, Films - Star Trek, Television - Space: 1999 (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Ellison and TERMINATOR Date: 12 Jun 85 18:13:17 GMT A few people have mentioned the legal bruhaha about the film THE TERMINATOR and the payment that Ellison received on copyright infringment grounds for similarities to the two Outer Limits episodes that Ellison wrote. I haven't seen much in the way of opinion about the situation. I want to express an opinion. I think it stinks. Science fiction is a literature that prides itself on freedom of ideas. For a long time science fiction in the magazines was really a dialog of ideas. One author would disagree with another by writing a story along similar lines, but would vary the idea showing how he thought things would work out differently. Writers built on the ideas of previous authors. They came to assume, in fact, that the reader was familiar with earlier works on the same subject. Wells had to explain the concept of time travel in TIME MACHINE, Ellison didn't in Soldier From the Future. Stories borrowed ideas from other stories all the time and nobody paid much attention because that is the way the science fiction game is played. And one reason it could be played that way is that large sums of money were not involved. Then TV and cinema got into the science fiction act and still there did not seem to be much of a problem since science fiction was still not a big moneymaker. Then Ellison and Bova wrote a story called "Brillo" about how a human is better than a robot to act as a policeman. In some ways it reused ideas from Asimov and others, but nobody cared because it was a different approach to some of Asimov's ideas. A TV network considered adapting "Brillo" into a series or a TV movie or something but the project never got off the ground. That same netword did do a series on the concept that a robot policeman would have to overcome initial prejudice, but would be a good thing. It is highly profitable to win a suit against a network and Ellison and Bova sued. They apparently demonstrated that "Brillo" inspired the concept of FUTURE COP and laid claim to ownership of the idea of a robot policeman. They must have had a darn good lawyer but they won that one. Science fiction fans everywhere applauded that a couple science fiction writers had won a suit against a big, bad corporation. After Fox made ALIEN, Van Vogt threatened to sue over similarities to his "Discord in Scarlet." Apparently egg-laying aliens is another owned idea. Now I admit when I saw TERMINATOR I did think of "Soldier from the Future." I thought a whole lot more about CYBORG 2087, a film in which a cyborg is sent back into our present to avert a totalitarian future. I can't tell you what concept Ellison must have claimed was stolen from him. "Soldier" was about a soldier, not a civilian or a robot. Is it the idea of time travellers coming from the future into the present to avert a bad future? Surely that is too broad for Ellison to claim all of it. My impression is that Ellison is just a parasite who claims to be disgusted at how the film industry does not meet his high science fiction standards, yet when they try to play by the same rules that we expect from science fiction writers, he is right in there with his lawyer trying to make a fast buck. Anyone else out there have thoughts on this. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 12 Jun 1985 05:47:51-PDT From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack From: anything you want with TECO and DDT) Subject: Re: ``A Boy and His Dog'' (SPOILER) > The movie version of "A Boy and His Dog" is one of the most > faithful adaptions (sic) of a written work Hollywod (sic) has ever > done. The ending is just as it is in the story, virtually word > for word. Some even consider the movie a two hour lead in for the > ending punch line. No! The last line of the MOVIE is Blood saying ``she certainly had good judgment, if not particularly good taste.'' The last three paragraphs of the NOVELLA are: ``We had to move slow because Blood was still limping. It took a long time before I stopped hearing her calling in my head. Asking me, asking me: `do you know what love is?' ``Sure I know. ``A boy loves his dog.'' > I dont (sic) think cannibalism is a great idea, but if that was > the only way to save that faithful canine, I can't blame the boy > for what he did; furthermore, I dont (sic) take it literally: I > think it was just a clever metaphor for the choice the boy had to > make between companions. > > I must also quibble a bit here: "it ain't in the story" doesn't > necessarily mean the author didnt (sic) intend it -- he/she (sic) > might just not have thought of it. In this particular case: no! I guess that the best response is to quote from my earlier message to SF-Lovers: > Note that ``. . . that classic line at the end: one couldn't (sic) > think of a more apt ending!'' not only is not in Ellison's novella, > but has been publicly disclaimed by Ellison -- he claims that it > rather strongly violates the spirit of his story, in particular the > actual last line of his story. (I in fact agree with him on this > point, though I still like the movie's line.) I have already presented the respective endings; you can judge the underlying semantics for yourself. (Unfortunately, I don't remember where Ellison made his public disclaimer, so I can't quote it; none the less, he has made it.) Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 13:34 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: A Boy and his Dog (SPOILER!) WRONG!!!!!!!!! > From Julian Gomez > The ending is just as it is in the story, virtually word for word. > Some even consider the movie a two hour lead in for the ending > punch line. While that might be true about the lead-in, the ending was NOT the same as the book (actually a short story). A Boy and his Dog was originally published in New Worlds (Great Britian) in 1969 and was then expanded for it's publication in The Beast that Shouted Love at the World, it's first American publication. **** SPOILER **** The actual ending went like this, word for word. I looked up at her. The sun was going down. Blood trembled in my arms. She got a pouty look on her face. "If you love me, you'll come on!" I couldn't make it alone out there without him. I knew it. If I loved her. She asked me, once in the boiler, do you know what love is? It was a small fire, not nearly big enough for any roverpak to spot from the outskirts of the city. No smoke. And after Blood had eaten his fill, I carried him to the air-duct a mile away, and we spent the night inside, on a little ledge. I held him all night. He slept good. In the morning, I fixed him up pretty good. He'd make it; he was strong. He ate again. There was plenty left from the night before. I didn't eat. I wasn't hungry. We started off across the blast wasteland that morning. We'd find another city, and make it. We had to move slow, because Blood was still limping. It took a long time before I stopped hearing her calling in my head. Asking me, asking me: do you know what love is? Sure I know. A boy loves his dog. *** eos *** I think that's a better ending than a silly punch line. It was a better story than it was a movie, but the movie was good too. As usual, I recommend this method; See the movie, then read the book. You won't be disappointed by the movie, and you'll love the added depth of the book. Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR Date: 13 Jun 85 02:30:53 GMT Mark Leeper's attack on Harlan Ellison ("Ellison is a parasite") stirs me to respond. There is a good deal of difference between cross-fertilization of ideas (which is a long respected tradition in SF, as we all know, Ellison included) and theft of your work. As I understand the situation, Ellison had worked on a project to develop the Robot Cop story "Brillo", but the project had fallen through. Ellison then went on to other things. Later on, some of the work from that project (and maybe some of the same people) showed up in the Robot Cop series. It is very clear to me that this situation suggests double-dealing. It would scarcely be fair to hire someone to work on a project, get a lot of ideas, and then dump that person saying that the project was off...then use the ideas anyway. If there is some reason for wanting someone off a project, fire him and pay severance pay, buy him out, or whatever seems appropriate. But saying it's over and we're all going to live with that, then picking up the project again without paying the original creators, is obviously foul play. It is of course conceivable that the Robot Cop series WAS independent of Ellison's work and the similarities in background were just coincidental. That's what the court was supposed to decide. In the case of Robot Cop, it decided that the Robot Cop series had significantly plundered the work that Ellison did on the aborted project, and it awarded Ellison the money. Now Terminator is another situation. I have heard nothing to suggest that Ellison was involved in a development deal on related projects, except for the Outer Limits scripts. Again, I think the validity of this whole mess is up to the courts. I can't judge for myself because I haven't seen the shows in question. I hope that the court is well enough informed on the matter that they won't automatically say "They both have time travel so Terminator must be stolen." Presumably, the Terminator people can come up with any number of expert witnesses who will state that time travel and certain related concepts are "public domain" in SF. The court will then decide strictly on the merits of the stories whether plagiarism has occurred or Ellison is just being a litiginous swine. Since I respect Ellison, I hope it will be the former, but time will tell. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: dartvax!betsy@topaz.arpa (Betsy Hanes Perry) Subject: Re: Galactic Pantograph Date: 12 Jun 85 18:12:28 GMT > From: Laurence R Brothers > A couple of years ago, I asked Baird Searles at the SF Bookshop, > and he said that Panshin's problems with his publisher had been > ironed out and we could expect the book any time now. This is > obviously not quite true (either that or there were a LOT of > errors in the galleys...) I bumped into Panshin at Boskone in 1983(?), at which time he said he'd had writers' block problems, and that he was now self- publishing. He mentioned that there were at least three (!) more Villiers novels in his head, but that they hadn't hit paper yet. I bought the short-story collection he was promoting there. It included most of the 'mini-stories' from his novels, e.g. "To a Teacup Held For Murder." Alas, the book also included an essay on the sterility of science fiction and why he wasn't writing it any more. *the Galactic Pantograph*. Elizabeth Hanes Perry UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa Subject: Getting to Vulcan in a hijacked Klingon ship Date: 12 Jun 85 01:39:34 GMT brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >> From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) >>Also, wouldn't you be a bit nervous taking a Klingon ship right >>into Federation territory and landing it (!!!) on Vulcan? > 3. Hmmm. A little tricky. Possibly they did most of their > traveling cloaked (very energy expensive), or maybe there is a > special code that can be transmitted saying 'this is a captured > ship - let me come home!'. Says the novelization: Uhura is already on Vulcan (thanks to the Vulcan embassy on Earth; this fuels my belief that Sarek, *not* Kirk, is the driving force behind The Search For Spock); why not a "queen to queen's level 1" code? Or, since (again from the novel) Saavik is in charge of communications on the requisitioned :-) Bird of Prey, perhaps Spock taught her a code that will instantly identify Vulcans (like the Vulcan language :-). Of course, this is even hairier if you accept the "The Final Reflection" events, as Harve Bennett apparently did; Vulcan is probably *quite* familiar with Klingon design. Brandon Allbery Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa ncoast!bsa@case.csnet +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999, Gerry Anderson and Lew Grade Date: 12 Jun 85 03:24:49 GMT Prof Bergman's disapearance was never explained in any episode but in the book,'THE MAKING OF SPACE 1999',it is said that lines were cut out explaining what had happened. His space suit malfunctioned. True enough ,the second season was pretty bad at times, but the first season is at least watchable. UFO was the direct ancestor of 1999 but with better stories and not as many scientific 'clangers'. This could have easily gone in to another series and its a pity it didn't. Also a final deciding episode for both shows would have been great. As for the characters, they were never fully developed though I thought that SPACE 1999 had a great family feel to it. Andy T. ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!djl@topaz.arpa (Dave Lane) Subject: SPACE 1999 and UFO Date: 11 Jun 85 06:55:02 GMT Okay, silly series trivia fans, what was the name of the Technical Director for both "Space 1999" and "UFO"? (there is a hint hidden in this article) Dave Lane, User Assistant, Office of Computing Services, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp}!gatech!gitpyr!djl {rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!djl ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Jun 85 23:20:49-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #209 I want to see a mythical last episode of SPACE: 1999, wherein the Moon returns to Earth (by some magic falling into its old orbit), and they discover the Earth uninhabitable due to the explosion that sent the Moon off in the first place... More seriously, I seem to remember that they had been getting signals from some strange planet -- neat oscilliscope-flavor patterns, I think -- and after the blast found themselves heading off in that direction. I don't think that they ever got there, or even mentioned it again (though going through the spacewarp would explain that, but that was(?) most of a season later). A pity; I think that the series could have done better if they had some stronger direction. I find that harder to ignore than all the silly science, than all the times that the Moon fell into orbit at the beginning of a show and then fell back out at the end, The ``stronger direction'' was not intended to say anything about the director. Bard. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jun 85 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #214 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 14 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 214 Today's Topics: Books - King & Some Reviews (2 msgs) & Great Authors, Magazines - More Reviews of SF Magazines (2 msgs), Films - Rocky Horror ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wednesday, 12 Jun 1985 23:34:42-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: King/bachman redux Once more into the breach, dear friends... > From: ttidca!dewey@topaz.arpa (William Dewey) > Having just finished the book 'Thinner' by Richard Bachman, I am a > bit puzzled by the small white wrapper which was around the book > upon which was printed 'Stephen King writing as Richard > Bachman'.... On the book jacket of 'Thinner' is a picture of > Richard Bachman which looks nothing like Stephen King, at least > not the Stephen King in the American Express adds, and the book is > dedicated 'To my wife, Claudia Inez Bachman' just coincidentally, > Claudia Bachman took the photo of the author which appears on the > jacket. The photo of "the author" was placed on the jacket to throw people off track. The person in the photo has been revealed to be Richard A. Manuel, a real estate broker from Minnesota who is a friend of King's literary agent, Kirby McCauley. While I'm thinking about it, I want to squelch a rumor about another King pseudonym. In a recent issue of FANTASY REVIEW, there was a review of a specialty press book that was a deluxe reprint of a porno novel from the late 60's by "John Wilson". (I don't have the issue on hand, so I don't recall the title, and am not sure of the exact by-line) The review stated that this was, in reality, Stephen King. **** THIS IS A HOAX!!!! IT IS NOT TRUE!!!! **** The very next issue contained a letter from King's lawyer asking for a retraction, which was given. The person [ir]responsible for the "review" admitted that it was a hoax. And speaking of other pseudonyms and photos, there is a occult novel that came out from Doubleday some many moons ago called THE KING OF SATAN'S EYES, by "Geoffrey Marsh". Marsh is really Charles L. Grant, and the photo of Marsh on the jacket is actually of Grant's father. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: NIGHT SHIFT/BOOKS OF BLOOD Date: 12 Jun 85 18:29:27 GMT NIGHT SHIFT by Stephen King Signet, 1979 BUCKETS OF BLOOD by Clive Barker Sphere, 1984 Two book reviews by Mark R. Leeper On a recommendation for horror stories by a British newcomer, Clive Barker, I read his third collection, BOOKS OF BLOOD: VOLUME THREE. Then to put him in a perspective, I read what is probably the best-selling horror collection of all time, NIGHT SHIFT by Stephen King. That makes sense because King is to horror writers what McDonald's is to restaurants. His is a sort of decent, never great, all-pervasive standard. So what are my conclusions? I'd say the two writers were quite different but roughly on a par as writers. I read a horror story for three things: an interesting horror idea, interesting characters, and an engaging plot. King's ideas are all right but a little unimaginative and even timeworn. I often say when I read one of his novels that it would have made a really good short story. Many of his short stories would have made good cartoons by a macabre cartoonist like Gahan Wilson. Stories like "The Boogeyman" and "Gray Matter," in fact, seemed very much like story-length versions of particular Gahan Wilson cartoons that pre-dated them. At least two other stories ("The Mangler" and "Trucks") are just variations on Sturgeon's classic SF-horror story "Killdozer," written in the late Forties. "Battleground," in which a child's toy soldier set attacks humans is just a pale shadow of the Richard Matheson story "Prey" in which a really vicious native doll comes to life and terrorizes the woman who purchased it. (Actually, a lot of King seems heavily derived from Matheson, who I think was an even better horror story writer before he was seduced by the Hollywood side of the Force.) Other so-called stories are really just a scene each plus a fair amount of set-up time. These stories are "The Ledge," "The Man Who Loved Flowers," and "One for the Road." The stories that stand out for original ideas are "I Am the Doorway" and "Quitters, Inc." Of the five stories in the Barker anthology, at least three struck me as really new concepts. When you start out a Barker story, you are never sure where he is going to take it. When the idea does come along it is really out of left field and attacks with a real element of surprise. His best story drones for a little while about a vaguely interesting character out in his field trying to dig up a large object that he's found. Then the object comes up by itself and the story shifts gears into a really gruesome story about, of all things...a giant. I suppose at one time there were blood-curdling stories about giants, but that was a long time ago. These days they are confined to mild children's stories, at least in horror. This is NOT a mild children's story. The idea of doing a gruesome giant story is more creative than just about anything that King has ever done. I was certainly more surprised by it than by any of King's stories. Premise was the first criterion I had for measuring stories. The second was characters. King goes for interesting people, Barker for real people. What is the difference? Well, to exaggerate it, would you rather watch a videotape of an hour out of the life of your next-door neighbor or Mickey Mouse? One would be very realistic as a slice-of-life, but not as entertaining as the other. The other would be someone you could feel for, but it would not be quite as realistic as the first. Barker writes about male prostitutes, film projectionists, pornographers. And they are believable portraits. You don't really care for the characters, but you believe them and you learn something about their lifestyles. When King writes about a college student, you end up identifying with the character, but you get no insights into how a college student sees life differently than, say, how a trucker does. King leaves a lot of room in his characters for the reader to identify with the characters, to get into and walk through the horror story with the them. Barker's characters are too real and specific to have much identification value. That may be a point against Barker in a horror story, but his stories are better as literature. But that is actually getting into the third criterion, plot. Barker's characters have depth and motivation, where all too often Kings just limns out an outline for the reader to paint him/herself into. Occasionally King uses this for an emotional effect. He has real-life things haunting the character and this is perhaps King's finest hour. His most satisfying stories are "Sometimes They Come Back" (drawn no doubt on his experiences teaching in a time when it really is outright dangerous to be a teacher in some schools) and "Last Rung on the Ladder." which is a non-fantasy story with some suspense which also has something to say. (While I'm on the subject of this story, I have some mathematical complaints. The character first says it happened some time when "Ike" was in office, as if he doesn't remember exactly when. Yet he knows he was ten years old at the time. Most people have a pretty precise idea of what summer they were ten years old. At another point, he jumps from a hayloft 70 feet high. That's like being on the seventh floor of an office building--assuming six twelve-foot stories beneath him. If this guy is jumping from that into a haystack, he should be a stuntman!) Two different writers, two different styles. The difference is a matter of taste. Obviously, King is more commercial; Barker is more original. Either is worth the read. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Thu 13 Jun 85 01:27:46-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: Finding your hero Imagine, if you will, the book behind this blurb: Flung across space and time by the sorcery of super-science, John Gordon exchanges bodies with Zarth Arn, Prince of the Mid-Galactic Empire 2000 centuries in the future! Suddenly John is thrust into a last-ditch battle between the democratic Empire World and the tyranny of the Black Cloud regime. Only one weapon - the terrifying Disruptor - can win the struggle for the Empire Forces. But it is so powerful that unless John uses it correctly it could destroy not only the enemy but the cosmos. Could his 20th Century mind cope with the technology of 200,000 years from now ? and on the front cover A 20th Century man battles in a cosmic war 200,000 years from now! I suppose I could review this piece of junk: The Star Kings, by Edmond Hamilton Copyright 1949. (My copy printed 1970 by Paperback Library.) A book review by Don Lindsay. This book is delightful genre trash. The blurb just about says it all. I suppose I could use this book to illustrate Aldiss' wonderful definition of space opera ".. Space must flow past the ports like wine from a pitcher. Blood must run down the palace steps, and ships launch out into the louring dark.." I even suppose that I could tie this into the recent complaints about blurb writing, and spoilers, and genre ghettos, and quality. Instead, however, I'd like to start a new topic. Why, do you suppose, did it become standard to somehow transport a man of our times into the plot? Burroughs got John Carter to Mars somewhere in the first few pages. Stephen Donaldson did more or less the same. In fact, this has been recycled by everyone from Lin Carter ("The Green Star",etc.) to Brian Daley ("The Starfollowers of Coramonde",1979). Not to mention one of A.E.Van Vogt's stronger works, "The Book of Ptath" (1943). An obvious answer is that it gives an excuse for all that explanatory material. But that really can't be the whole story, because Van Vogt didn't use his hero that way. Eddison, in "The Worm Ouroboros" (1926), completely abandoned his protagonist after five pages! So why did he introduce him? Just what is going on here? Over and out Don Lindsay Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu 13 Jun 85 01:42:10-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: can't let it pass Someone recently gave a list of great authors. I rebut: Orson Scott Card - major suspensions of disbelief. Cruelty. Brian Aldiss - has been known to be boring and to inflate plot lines. J.G. Ballard - this man has a good book in him. Pity he wrote it so many times. Don Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Jun 85 12:17:18-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Magazine stuff More mag. reviews (in order of personal preference) Non-Fiction: 1) SF Chronicle: Andy Porter does a great job of capturing the fannish and the pro side of science fiction. Plus, it's done in Boston and I get my copies faster than LOCUS. 2) LOCUS: Has gone mostly professional. Con reports, yes, but now there are as many items about editors and agents as writers and fans. I love the color (when Brown gets a deep-pockets advertiser) and it is more of a magazine of record than SFC. SFC is more fun. 3) SF Quarterly: Richard Geis's obnoxious and entertaining view of SF and fandom. It has to be read to be believed, as (I am told) Geis also puts out sf soft-porn. Great columns, less news than (1) or (2). Orson Scott Card has a fantastic column in the Summer 1985 issue. Others include Lee Pelton's Private Heat (I've only seen one copy, which was great) and Omni, which is cursed by a desire for the 3000 word thrill and gut-reaction story, and pseudo-science articles (good puzzles, though). Fiction: 1) F&SF: The closest thing to literature that we have. Ferman is a real editor, the stories are good and unpredictable, and the Ellison column is more fun than wrapping hamsters in duct tape. Consistently good. 2) IASFM: More fantasy and not-quite SF than under Scithers, but still an entertaining read. Shawna McCarthy is a more adventurous editor than Ferman and she often publishes bizaared science articles. Columns are OK, but inferior to F&SF. Fiction is usually lighter than F&SF, and sometimes better. 3) Amazing: Just like the old IASFM -- Scithers is nothing, if not consistent. Probably the best place for new writers -- low pay rates and lousy circulation make this a second-class market for a pro. (Three new writers in one ish a month or two ago.) 4) Analog: Clearly the worst pro magazine around. Mostly mediocre puzzle stories, and lame technical articles (real gee whiz stuff). Every month I play "spot the errors." Technical problems have included: misapplication of thermodynamics, law of conservation of angular momentum, Jewish tradition, and probability theory. (in just three months) Some of the stories are OK for initial thrills -- good magazine for your favorite adolescent male with acne. Outside SF: (this is especially for beginning writers) For computers, read BYTE. None of the other micro mags get any deeper than how to write games and utilities, and BYTE doesn't get all that deep. Try IEEE Software (boring mostly). Science News is a favorite of many hard SF writers who don't have graduate degrees in 6 fields. Personally, I think it is very shallow, but then it provides a good overview every week of all the nifty discoveries in the world. New Scientist is fantastic, but expensive. [Flame off] Have fun, wz ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Magazine stuff (Fantasy Review) Date: 13 Jun 85 04:29:56 GMT Yet another magazine review: _Fantasy Review_ has gone through a number of title changes (not to mention logos), but it's mission remains the same: to review nearly EVERYTHING published in fantasy (in which they include SF). While it does eventually get around to reviewing most everything, it has a tremendous backlog; twice a year they publish "All-Review Issues" to try and catch up. Everything is reviewed on a equal basis, which means that a lot of space is used to tell you not to buy books that you probably wouldn't read anyway. On the plus side, there are occasional good articles; the editorials, however, are awful. What this mag needs is good editor. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe ------------------------------ From: bocar!man@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Rocky Horror Show (Not the movie) Date: 12 Jun 85 15:42:49 GMT >Actually, the only dissapointment was the "star", Wendy O'Williams >as ... oh crap, now I can't remember. Anyways, she played >Riff-Raf's female buddy, you, know, the one who he takes over with >him towards the end. Anyways, she was pretty much of a dud. For >those of you who don't remember, Wendy is the ex-lead singer of the >ex-punk band The Plasmatics. She's the one who was arrested for >NOT wearing shaving cream on stage in Cleveland. The other players >were all local theatre type and were very good. She must have played Magenta, Riff Raff's sister. (Remember -- Incest is best?) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jun 85 0941-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #215 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 14 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 215 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Zelazny vs Brust, Films - Quest for Love, Television - UFO & Space: 1999 (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR Date: 20 Jun 85 06:38:00 GMT >There is a good deal of difference between cross-fertilization of >ideas (which is a long respected tradition in SF, as we all know, >Ellison included) and theft of your work. As I understand the >situation, Ellison had worked on a project to develop the Robot Cop >story "Brillo", but the project had fallen through. Ellison then >went on to other things. Later on, some of the work from that >project (and maybe some of the same people) showed up in the Robot >Cop series. My understanding at the time was that Ellison could not demonstrate any work of his had shown up in the FUTURE COP series. He made his claim solely on the claim of plagiarized ideas. Other times I believe he has made what I consider an outrageous claim that science fiction writers are stupid not to make what money they can out of Hollywood. When he is writing for Hollywood he disparages the writers who are not and when he isn't he claims that everything Hollywood makes in science fiction is garbage. I have very little respect for that sort of attitude. >Now Terminator is another situation. I have heard nothing to >suggest that Ellison was involved in a development deal on related >projects, except for the Outer Limits scripts. That's right. >Again, I think the validity of this whole mess is up to the courts. It has been settled out of court, I thought. It was safer that way for the producers of TERMINATOR. I just don't agree with the decision to settle out of court. >I can't judge for myself because I haven't seen the shows in >question. There are other works of science fiction far closer, but Ellison seems to have some sort of recognized territoriality on anything at all like his ideas that makes a good profit. >I hope that the court is well enough informed on the matter that >they won't automatically say "They both have time travel so >Terminator must be stolen." The producers did not want to take the risk, apparently. [Because I am talking about Ellison and the company I work for does make a profit, I will remind people that the opinions expressed here are my own.] Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison Date: 14 Jun 85 05:43:26 GMT >How do you differentiate between rip-offs and coincidence? How do you describe color to a blind man? That isn't as facetious an answer as you might think, because plagiarism is one of the great grey areas of literature law. >The idea of a robot cop doesn't sound so obtuse to guarantee >another writer won't think of it again... and invent story lines >around it. The best way to look at this is through example. If I were to write a SF series set in a bar, I wouldn't have a lot of problem except having publishers return it as being derivative. Spider Robinson has done a bar series (Callahan's Bar) but doing another bar story doesn't mean I'm plagiarizing him. Now, if I decide to make one of the Bartenders Irish, and one of the Bartenders an ex-minister, and maybe one night a week we have a joke-a-thon and aliens keep wandering in after saving the world I'm sure I'd hear from Spider's lawyers. Bar stories aren't illegal. Bar stories that look like they have been borrowed from already published bar stories are. >Harlan's stories may have been innovative in their day, but that >doesn't mean that they are innovative now. Thus it seems >presumptuous for him to conclude that he was ripped off. It is also presumptuous for you to assume it otherwise. Whether or not his story is still innovative is beside the point. Harlan owns the copyright to Brillo, and the copyrights to the Twilight Zone scripts, and that gives him the right to market them as he sees fit. If someone infringes upon the marketability of his work by borrowing from them without paying him, then Harlan is out money and is within his right to try to get it back. If you decided to rewrite Unix, you could do so without any problem. If you decided to rewrite Unix, however, with any of the materials the AT&T considers proprietary, then AT&T would have your office 18 deep in lawyers. The laws are different (copyright vs trade secret/contractual) but the concept is the same. Harlan owns Brillo, AT&T owns Unix. Neither is unique, but if you use the protected resources to create another resource without paying for them they you are equally in the wrong whether that resource is software, a SF story, or the patented formula for Valium. From the misfiring synapses of: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: tekecs!waltt@topaz.arpa (Walt Tucker) Subject: Time Paradoxes (Heinlein) Date: 12 Jun 85 22:22:36 GMT I just finished a short (20 page) RAH story called "All You Zombies...." This story deals with a time paradox, presented in Heinlein style. I won't comment on the physical probability of the story happening, but the paradox is interesting. The paradox is very similar to that presented in another one of his short stories called "By His Bootstraps." Anyway, I thought the paradox presented in this story was unusual enough to summarize to this newsgroup. So... A time traveller, an older gentleman in his fifties, has set himself up as a barkeep in 1970 so as to meet a certain person. A 25-year old man comes into the bar. The time traveller engages in conversation with the man, who then tells his strange story. It seems the man was born a girl, and brought up in orphanage, never having any clues as to parentage. When the girl (man telling the story) is about 18, she meets a man. They have a short fling and she winds up pregnant and he winds up gone. Nine months later she goes in to have the baby. She wakes up in the hospital. The doctor tells her a tale of how (s)he had two set of sex organs (each not fully developed). The baby (a female) is fine, but having a baby did irreparable harm to the female set of sex organs. All the doctors can do is perform subsequent operations and let her develop as a man. Well, at least she figures she can raise the baby as the father. No orphanage for the little baby girl. Three days later, the baby is snatched out of the hospital and is never seen again. Now it is seven years later. The man tells the time traveller that he would give about anything to get a hold of the man who ruined his life (got him (her?) pregnant). The time traveller, of course, offers the man this opportunity. They go back to 1963. The time traveller drops the man off to find the man that got him (her?) pregnant these seven years past. The time traveller says he will pick him up in a little while. The time traveller jumps ahead 11 months to 1964, locates the baby in the hospital and takes it. The time traveller takes the baby back to 1945 and drops it off at an orphanage, making sure that the baby gets taken in before leaving. The time traveller then goes back to 1963 to pick up the man, who is badly shaken. It seems the man met himself as a woman and seduced his younger self. The time traveller then offers the man a job as a fellow time traveller, who accepts the job. It is now 30 years later, and the 25-year old man is now the time traveller in the bar in 1970, waiting for his younger self to appear. Strange. But, it is a rather interesting paradox (the baby grows up to be the man who seduces himself as a woman who has a baby that is really himself, etc.) -- Walt Tucker Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 03:02:11 pdt From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Zelazny, Brust First off, LoL is not Zelazny at his best. Just because a book has an opinion on everything does not make it good. For Zelazny at his best try "Doorway in the Sand", "Isle of the Dead" or "To Die in Italbar" (more of the recurring pantheon in all RZs books...). I can only explain this with the hypothesis that RZ was a devout Hindu in a prior life. Having just finished "Trumps" (which I liked a lot), I conclude that RZ cannot deal with computers and should exclude them from future plots. Coils sucked (S's fault?). Changeling was weak. On the other hand "My Name is Legion" (the short story, in the collection of the same name) is the best short I've ever read, but it deals with robot hardware rather than computer software, and I think the hand waving about software is where RZ falls down. I also have stylistic problems with RZ. When I read a book like Tanith Lee's "To Kill The Dead", I see a power of characterization RZ cannot touch. Maybe RZs so busy making statements on things (remember Tokyo Bay?) he has no time for Dick-ian trips. When is the last time you've been surprised by RZ, the way Wolfe, Rucker or Brust (more later) surprises? Has RZ ever had a truly morbid character? (Shadowjack sought vengeance which is a quite different thing) Can he write about love? Of his last dozen books I'd say half have been lemons. Brust, ahhm yes. Your style seems derivative of RZ's, and shares the same weaknesses. On the other hand the names you choose for places and characters are indeed inspired. I enjoyed Jhereg and Yendi. You are willing and able to undercut my response to your prose - and seem quite sensitive to my mood. One passage had me chuckling for half an hour. I started in on TRiH, but it was less gripping, and I've not yet found time to finish it or to review Jhereg/Yendi. I hope you can turn your talent to deeper issues and meaning without losing humor and narrative. You said audience participation was what ruined Rocky Horror. Well isn't audience participation the big draw at Dead Shows? (btw I trade concert tapes.. ) While I agree with you that RHPS is in ruins, RHPS had nothing going for it even before audience participation. RHPS was ruined in conception. -s ------------------------------ Date: Wed 12 Jun 85 10:42:04-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Random Quest Well, Evelyn Leeper's review of Quest for Love made it sound a real turkey, but somehow it didn't sound like the story, so off I went to the shelves. First, when Colin Trafford gets knocked into the alternative world, he works out roughly what has happened very quickly - not least because he (the alternative he) is knocked down by a London General omnibus, which disappeared from our history in 1933. Also, he is a novelist, not a playwright. A splitting-point of 1938 is quite absurd, for the reasons cited; but that isn't what the story said either I did do my best, out of my own curiosity, to discover when the schism had taken place... But I couldn't come near fixing the moment. It was, I think, somewhere in late 1926, or early 1927. Further than that one seemed unable to go without the impossible data of quantities of records from both planes for comparison. Something happening, or not happening, about then had brought about results which prevented, among other things, the rise of Hitler, and thus the Second World War... This, I submit, is plausible. We have the League of Nations, the Locarno treaties, the Weimar Republic, and the Washington Naval Conference. We don't have the German inflation, or the Great Crash of 1929 (the alternative Colin Trafford has gold coins in his pocket) and so, presumably, we don't have the infamous Smoot-Hawley act, perhaps the single largest factor in causing the Second World War, and much other nastiness besides. Of course, there is no mention of Kennedy, not least because the story is Copyright 1956. However, much of John F K's political rise was due to his family, not himself, so he might still have made it. His war career was pretty undistinguished, (to put it politely) until the hagiographers got to work. Not that Wyndham would have voluntarily mentioned him, I feel - to an Englishman of that generation the name Kennedy would mean Joseph, not John, and he was cordially hated. Why, oh why, must the morons who adapt works like this for the visual media make utterly pointless, pig-ignorant, destructive changes? Finally, the main plot of the story is NOT Colin's adventure in the other world, but his search in this one for Ottilie/Belinda, which occupies about three-quarters of the space. I hope the adaptors at least preserved that balance. On a related topic, there have been several TV plays starting with the premiss that Britain allied with Germany in WW II, usually as the result of a military defeat and a political compromise. One of the best was called "The Other Man", about 1970 I think. A problem with these plays is that reasonable extrapolation seems to show that Britain would be in far better shape if she HAD allied with Hitler. The assumption being, one presumes, that even a gang of Nazi quislings would have been far preferable to the thugs, war-profiteers, perverts and assorted vermin who actually took over the country in 1945! (And that the USA is not, perhaps, the world's best or most reliable ally - as several other small countries have discovered in the past 40 years). But, since we seem never to learn from real history, is there any reason to suppose we would learn from alternative history? Read it for fun, if at all, say I. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Thu 13 Jun 85 11:05:57-PDT From: Laurence R Brothers Subject: UFO series I rather liked it, at least certain episodes. The majority of the shows were basically rehashes of the footing from the credits -- pilots getting into their bizarre nose-bombers or whatever and blowing those silly-looking UFO's all to hell. However, certain episodes got away from the standard formula and were truly unusual, surreal, etc. My favorites that I remember (I haven't seen the show for some years now) are the time-warping episode and the crypto-werewolf episode. I agree that Straker's characterization is far more real than most sf characters, at least in the few episodes where they really got into it. -Laurence I also like the music from the credits, for that matter.... ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!david@topaz.arpa (David Coffield) Subject: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 13 Jun 85 09:48:26 GMT *PLEASE* can those who are guilty stop slagging Space 1999, UFO et al. There was nothing wrong with them when you were young. (weren't you guys *ever* kids?) Who gives a toss about the force required to blast the moon out of the Earths orbit? Most sci-fi is far fetched - it's meant to be. Constructive criticism and personal opinions yes, but cut out the slagging. "Spectrum Is Green" ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can('t) defend it Date: 13 Jun 85 03:40:29 GMT The line 'puppets without strings' was a very nasty jibe invented by a critic as it sounds clever. It has always been easier to criticize something than to praise it, thus you tend to hear more from people who don't like it than from those who do (e.g. me). The best form of criticism is constructive (though its a bit late now for UFO & 1999). the problems with the characters were not that they were 'acting' like puppets, more that their lines were bad (blame the script writer). They may appear to be cold and inhuman but this is more of an accurate representation of real life than it seems. In real life there is normally not a funny side to everything. Andy T. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jun 85 1004-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #216 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 14 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 216 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (8 msgs) & Westercon & Getting Autographs (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: A SHORT RESPONSE Date: 10 Jun 85 13:53:28 GMT > 3) I read for fun. I read trash. I just don't have any illusions > about it, even though I enjoy it. "Enjoyment" is not the be-all > and end-all of life. Neither is someone's purely subjective literary merit evaluation. > 4) I realize that what I say is my opinion, and I am surprised at > the number of people who have seen fit to inform me of this > obvious fact. Lighten up. At least I have attempted to support > my opinion with examples and logic. He who issues flame-like messages shall get such back. High-handed, superior tone messages beg for assault and given the nature of the net will get it. > 5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van > Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is > bad art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them > is to lump greatness with mediocrity. Otherwise, there is no > basis for *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which is > incredibly egocentric. Oh GOD what planet do you live on. ART, any form, any kind, is PURELY subjective. What art is considered "better" is strictly cultural brainwashing just as any music (too many notes). Play modern critically acclaimed modern music to a musical theoretician of century ago and he will tell you it is junk. Show a critically acclaimed modern painting to a similar artist and he will say it is demented scratchings. Literature similarly. You are simply waving your hands at a subjective evaluation and trying to make your particular likes and dislikes something that rises above everyone else, a typical self-delusion. (I am not, by the way, a Norman Rockwell fan so stop trying to pick the most ridiculous artistic comparison you could think of to shove in my face) > 6) "Well-written" and "boring" are mutually exclusive in my book. That is because your purely subjective evaluation of "well-written" applies only to those books which aren't boring to yourself but may very well be quite ho-hum to me (rather discriminatory don't you think). I will not disagree that in my opinion (note this phrase, you should try using it more often) the amount of crap in the SF&F field has grown but then so has the entire field. If you are willing to look for it there are still gems among the rough and I would even venture to say more than were available in previous times. I think, however, we would no doubt disagree on what are gems and what is rough (and this is probably true of virtually any two people). David Albrecht ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply Date: 10 Jun 85 14:10:38 GMT > henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes: >>You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not. >>Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else. >>Just because a majority >Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but >you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For >edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by >R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michelangelo is not "just another" >sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any >trashcan, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may >believe otherwise. >>does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have >>mine. >Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ??? >(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary >masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!) Ahhh, but what if the culture values the "rough" nature of a lesser sculptor. Torn tee-shirts, poor stitching, camp looks, then that culture will evaluate "just another" sculptor higher than Michelangelo. Michelangelo had great life-like vision but I am certain that you could find many people who don't consider life-like vision great art. I really don't feel that artisitic evaluation and quality are the same thing. A work of art may have the feel of quality and yet not be artisically great. Similarly, a motorcycle engine may have the static feel of quality yet not work very well. Quality to me is more an expression of the feeling of precision and care that an item evokes and has little to do with art. David Albrecht ------------------------------ From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OFF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV Date: 11 Jun 85 01:12:27 GMT > in "Helliconia Summer" he described the last breaths of dying men > as "apostrophes on the possessive case of life". *That* is great > writing. No, it's not. Strange juxtapositions of words that appear to say something profound are not examples of good writing, just the mummery of a wordsmith who mispreceives the meaning of art. Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 09:27 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: Replies to replies... The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply to a reply to a reply - you get the idea >henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes: >>You throw forth your opinions as if they were fact. They are not. >>Absolutely ALL artistic appreciation is opinion. Nothing else. Just >>because a majority > >Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but >you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For >edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by >R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michaelangelo is not "just another" >sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any trash >can, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may >believe otherwise. Sure, QUALITY exists, but it is NOT an absolute. My quality may not be your quality. Michaelangelo is quality. So is Picaso (sp? Spelling is not my forte). However, had Picaso turned up during Michaelangelo's time I seriously doubt we would have ever heard of him. What is quality changes with time. To use a point I make in a message as yet unposted, Shakespeare was TRASH when it was written, now it is QUALITY. Quality changes with time and from person to person. I know there are people who like country music, but for the life of me I have no idea WHY. That is not quality music to me but it is to them. To paraphrase, quality is in the eye of the beholder. By the way, you may be surprised to hear it, but I couldn't agree with you more concerning # of the Beast vs. The Sheep Look Up - but I realize that is only MY opinion and not that of everyone - probably not even that of the majority. >>does not make the opinion RIGHT. You have your opinions and I have >>mine. > >Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ??? >(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary >masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!) Oh boy! TRUTH! With all the letters in capitals! I live in South Carolina. If there exists a buckle to the Bible Belt, S.C. is it. Within 30 miles of me is Bob Jones University. They have a hotline to the TRUTH and have been telling us mere mortals how wrong our truths (OUR truths don't deserve capital letters) are for decades. I think - and expect you would agree with me - that they are full of shit. What does this have to do with artistic impressions? It's just and example showing one person's TRUTH is another person's shit. TRUTH is no more and absolute than quality. >>for enjoyment. If no one read for fun, the publishing industry >>would be practically non-existant. As for science fiction, it would >>never have gone beyond The War of the Worlds (an excellent book, >>but the field doesn't end with that one title). > >Ah, but perhaps we could do just as well, with just half of what is >published. DOes one have to read a lot of nonsense to have fun ??? One doesn't HAVE to read ANYTHING! If you think what I read is nonsense - even though you have no idea what I read (although your tone implies you do - I think you might be surprised to find out what I do and don't consider good fiction) then you don't have to read it. Read what you enjoy. If I think it's nonsense, I won't bother to read it. Henry Vogel henry%clemson@csnet.csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 85 08:45 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: THE PROBLEMS OFF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IV Cc: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA, Feuerman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA I had crafted a much longer, madder, accusatory, hyperbolic message in response to the latest message from Davis Tucker and decided not to send it in order to avoid the flames that I surely would have gotten. (But boy, was it fun to write!) In short, what I said was that in my opinion Dhalgren is the biggest piece of trash I have ever read. My advice is not to read it! Yours in presenting a dissenting opinion, >>Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jun 85 14:34 EDT Subject: Re: Mainstream vs. SF and sophistication From: ("Joe Herman @ Merryland ") $ begin low power flame Gentleman, I've been amused by the arguments over what type of literature is "trash" and what is not. If you're going to start an argument like this, you should define your terms. For instance, what does *anyone* look for in a book? What makes a book a non-trash book? Both answers are entirely subjective, and to argue them is like arguing (sp?) religion, or politics. When I was in Jr. High School, I couldn't get enought of EE "Doc" Smith and early Heinlein (ala Have Spacesuit, Will Travel). The other month, I went back and read some of those books again. It was almost embarrassing to read (please, no "..but Heinlein is god" flames). My point is, that tastes change. I may think that "good" literature is really dull. You may argue that I am not ready for the literature, but I could equally argue that the only reason you think the literature is good is because it's something different. I don't mean to argue that all literature has merits (though I possibly could...), but to classify a whole genre as being "trash" or being superior is really quite silly. So let's stop arguing (sp?) about this...all it's going to do is offend people, and I seriously doubt the discussion will change peoples behavior. If you'd like to be useful, *suggest* main-stream books or writing styles you enjoy. end low power flame $ Dzoey ------------------------------ From: warwick!alex@topaz.arpa (Frank N Furter) Subject: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply Date: 13 Jun 85 04:08:34 GMT mwm@ucbvax.UUCP (Mike Meyer) writes: >oz@yetti.UUCP writes: >>Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but >>you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For >>edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by >>R. M. Pirsig) > >Yup, you're right - I'll know quailty when it hits me in the face. >For instance, any book that can (intentionally) keep me laughing as >long as NOTB did is definetly QUALITY. Or maybe quality in an >artistic field is subjective, not objective? Since you seem to >think that it's objective, why don't you let the rest of the world >in on your measurement technics. Pirsig, in Zen&tAoMM, actually says that Quality is OUTSIDE of subjective and objective, it is a completely different mode. READ THIS BOOK. It really is very good. --Alex ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!asz ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: A SHORT RESPONSE Date: 14 Jun 85 06:16:56 GMT >> 3) I read for fun. I read trash. I just don't have any illusions >> about it, even though I enjoy it. "Enjoyment" is not the >> be-all and end-all of life. > >Neither is someone's purely subjective literary merit evaluation. This, of course, is a subjective response. >> 5) You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van >> Gogh, but you would be wrong. There is good art, and there is >> bad art, and to deny that there is a distinction between them >> is to lump greatness with mediocrity. Otherwise, there is no >> basis for *any* critical statement except "I like it". Which >> is incredibly egocentric. >Oh GOD what planet do you live on. ART, any form, any kind, is >PURELY subjective. Wrong. Art has both a subjective and an objective side. The objective side is technique, and how well the artist uses the techniques and tools of the trade. For a writer, there are things like spelling, grammar, and the structure of their works. For a painter, there is the use of paints and brushes, perspective, and the technical details of putting together a painting. The subjective side is how well the artists use these techniques, and how well the author can break the techniques in positive ways. Both are important; the best ideas in the world are unreadable if the way they are presented is illegible (just look at a random sampling of usenet, for example... *grin*) From the misfiring synapses of: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: wdl1!jrb@topaz.arpa Subject: WESTERCON rates Date: 11 Jun 85 20:15:53 GMT Does anyone know what the current and at-the-door rates are for Westercon Membership? John R Blaker UUCP: ...!fortune!wdl1!jrb ARPA: jrb@FORD-WDL1 and blaker@FORD-WDL2 ------------------------------ From: luke!steven@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: FOOTFALL Date: 9 Jun 85 05:48:23 GMT lindy@vienna.UUCP (John Lindquist) writes: >My question is: > Is it tacky to bring a different book to be autographed rather > than the one the session is for? I've wondered the same thing myself. Books, Inc. in San Jose has periodic autograph sessions. I've gone to a few and seen people come in with BOXES of books by the author! It seems to depend very much on the author. If you're a collector, then adding an autograph to a collectable increases its value. Otherwise, you'd think one is enough. It probably depends on how many people there are behind you and how long you can stand their stares. Steven List @ Benetics Corporation (415) 940-6300 {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!steven ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 85 16:42 PDT From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #202 > Is it tacky to bring a different book to be autographed rather > than thr one the session is for? I would hazard a guess that no one would mind you bringing other books to be autographed. As it so happens I had an opportunity to get Niven's autograph a while back. Though I did purchase the book the session was for, I also brought several of his previous works. The only requirement was that I get a reciept at the door to prove that I had brought the books with me. I'd recommend checking with the bookstore to find out what their policy is. I can tell you for sure that Mr. Niven didn't seem to mind. Wendel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Jun 85 1022-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #217 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 15 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 217 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Literary Sterility (2 msgs) & Sequels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 85 22:09:52 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Re: literary sterility > Charlie Martin writes: When I say ``sterile,'' just what am I > talking about? > >Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were >never able to become engrossed in the story? Where you were always >conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book? Then I believe >you were reading something that I call sterile. Odd definition of literary sterility. The term "sterility" is usually meant to convey something incapable of reproducing, so I would have thought literary sterility to mean that the work in question is a dead end, that it will have no influence on future works, perhaps that it does not stimulate speculation or thought. Your use of "sterility" strikes me as, intentional or not, an attempt to misuse a word so that you can take advantage of its perjorative connotations. This is similar to a liberal who chooses to call conservatives facists for rhetorical value. While they may fit your definition of "works which didn't engross *me*", your examples are certainly not sterile by any traditional definition of the word. "Moby Dick" and "Finnegan's Wake" are tremendously influential works which have lasted. The examples set by these novels are widely emulated (though not, in the case of "Finnegan's Wake", to the extent that Joyce went). I suspect that Calvino will have the same kind of lasting influence. As for the alternate definition, both Melville and Joyce make me think a great deal more than the vast majority of science fiction authors, so I believe that reading them has been more valuable to me than reading, say, Heinlein or Asimov or Zelazney. If these mainstream authors cause me to think more, if they stimulate ideas and broaden my viewpoint, I certainly wouldn't call them sterile, even if I didn't forget for a moment that I had a book in my hand. On the other hand, with a very few exceptions, any sf/fantasy novel I read stimulates very little thought for me. They are influential in the sense that almost every successful sf novel is likely to be copied, by its author if no one else, but I have my doubts about lasting influences. The sf of the 30s and 40s is almost entirely forgotten, with the exceptions of a few fine works and a lot of stuff written by authors who later became extremely successful. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of today's sf is destined for oblivion in a couple decades, a greater proportion of it than today's mainstream fiction. >I find it impossible to read Moby Dick for pleasure. I very much >doubt that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- or >if it is, it is only because years of study have made the reader so >familiar with the language involved (which means learning how to >handle puns across several european languages which are written in >the form of euphonic Scotch telegrams) that this language barrier >is no longer a problem. I believe that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is >sterile. I read "Finnegan's Wake" for pleasure. I have little linguistic background, beyond that inevitably gained by someone who has read a lot . I've never finished "Finnegan's Wake", and I am well aware that much of it flies right over my head. I have great difficulty even following what's going on. For me, reading "Finnegan's Wake" requires great effort. Yet, I enjoy it. Some people seem to only enjoy reading when they are able to put their mind on autopilot. I don't mind having to exert some effort, provided that the author gives me returns for my work. Authors like Joyce and Faulkner do. Many people are forgetting what sparked this discussion. It was a grandious claim that the best working authors are, for the most part, science fiction writers. I believe that, even under the constraint that you have to be able to immerse yourself in the book, this view is incorrect. You, of course, are welcome to feel otherwise, but unless you have done some fairly wide reading outside sf and in current literature, don't be too surprised if more widely read people snicker behind your back and attempt to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: literary sterility Date: 11 Jun 85 21:12:34 GMT reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA writes: >From: Peter Reiher >> Charlie Martin writes: When I say ``sterile,'' just what am I >>talking about? >> Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were >>never able to become engrossed in the story? Where you were >>always conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book? Then I >>believe you were reading something that I call sterile. > >Odd definition of literary sterility. The term "sterility" is >usually meant to convey something incapable of reproducing, so I >would have thought literary sterility to mean that the work in >question is a dead end, that it will have no influence on future >works, perhaps that it does not stimulate speculation or thought. >Your use of "sterility" strikes me as, intentional or not, an >attempt to misuse a word so that you can take advantage of its >perjorative connotations. In fact, the implication of infertility is precisely the implication I wanted, which is why I chose ``sterile.'' And the infertility that I intend to suggest is the inability to stimulate the creation of a vivid dream as an agreement between reader and writer. To strain my metaphor, I would go so far as to say that I think a mature reader is a growth medium, capable of bringing forth this vivid and shared dream when fertilized by a (non-sterile) work of fiction. I will stick to the word I chose, and only want to assure you that the perjorative meaning you believe I implied is more-or-less the one I intended. >While they may fit your definition of "works which didn't engross >*me*", your examples are certainly not sterile by any traditional >definition of the word. "Moby Dick" and "Finnegan's Wake" are >tremendously influential works which have lasted. And had I grown up with 19-th Century english as my native language, I'm sure that I would be engrossed by Moby Dick; but I didn't, and I'm not, even after a number of trys over several years. I wish I were -- I really admire the way that Melville put together sentences. >The examples set by these novels are widely emulated (though not, >in the case of "Finnegan's Wake", to the extent that Joyce went). >I suspect that Calvino will have the same kind of lasting >influence. > >As for the alternate definition, both Melville and Joyce make me >think a great deal more than the vast majority of science fiction >authors, so I believe that reading them has been more valuable to >me than reading, say, Heinlein or Asimov or Zelazney. If these >mainstream authors cause me to think more, if they stimulate ideas >and broaden my viewpoint, I certainly wouldn't call them sterile, >even if I didn't forget for a moment that I had a book in my hand. I have been trying to establish my use of the word ``sterile'' to make a technical distinction which I think is both invaluable and neglected in most critical discussions. I think that the one and only, sole reason for fiction's existence is to bring about that immersion in the shared dream. In fact I have begun to call it the Vivid Dream specifically to make that point. That fiction which impedes the creation of the Vivid Dream I feel is sterile *as fiction*. I don't exclude the possibility of other value. >On the other hand, with a very few exceptions, any sf/fantasy novel >I read stimulates very little thought for me. Then they are unsuccessful essays. >They are influential in the sense that almost every successful sf >novel is likely to be copied, by its author if no one else, but I >have my doubts about lasting influences. The sf of the 30s and 40s >is almost entirely forgotten, with the exceptions of a few fine >works and a lot of stuff written by authors who later became >extremely successful. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of >today's sf is destined for oblivion in a couple decades, a greater >proportion of it than today's mainstream fiction. The distinction between ``being copied'' and ``being influential'' is so subtle that I can't follow what you are saying in the first instance at all. (Actually, I am subtly trying to say that I think the distinction you are making is specious.) Give me a little further explanation, OK? As for the second point, I agree that most SF of today will disappear soon, except for collections. Most of mainstream ficiton will disappear soon, except for collections. However, the proportion of SF that is in print from 1950 is *much* greater than the proportion of mainstream fiction in print from 1950 (easily checked at any large library), so your second point seems to come down on my side. But in any case, as the first para of my article said, I think that Sturgeon's Law applies to *everything* without exception. I *do* think that an SF novel is more likely to be good fiction (remember, I'm talking about Vivid Dream now, not how much of an essay is hidden within the narrative) than a mainstream novel published the same year; but if you claimed mainstream for 91% crap and SF for 89% crap, I could hardly argue the point. >>I find it impossible to read Moby Dick for pleasure. I very much >>doubt that _Finnegan's_Wake_ is read by *anyone* for pleasure -- >>or >> ... the form of euphonic Scotch telegrams) that this language >>barrier is no longer a problem. I believe that _Finnegan's_Wake_ >>is sterile. > >I read "Finnegan's Wake" for pleasure. I have little linguistic >background, beyond that inevitably gained by someone who has read a >lot . I've never finished "Finnegan's Wake", and I am well aware >that much of it flies right over my head. I have great difficulty >even following what's going on. For me, reading "Finnegan's Wake" >requires great effort. Yet, I enjoy it. Some people seem to only >enjoy reading when they are able to put their mind on autopilot. I >don't mind having to exert some effort, provided that the author >gives me returns for my work. Authors like Joyce and Faulkner do. I've already covered this point a couple of times, so I won't belabor it: I overstated my point and I have indeed read parts of FW for pleasure. The pleasure is *not* that of entering into a shared dream, but rather of working out a puzzle. That pleasure is legitimate pleasure; I don't think its what *fiction* is about. >Many people are forgetting what sparked this discussion. It was a >grandious claim that the best working authors are, for the most >part, science fiction writers. ``Speak for yourself, Miles.'' *I* was replying rather to the idea that science fiction was all derivative and devoid of artistic merit. I have extended that by adding an attempt at defining what makes ``good fiction'' good, in order to make my argument clear and explicit. I still think that the odds are (slightly) better that an SF book by Jon Q. R. Random will be ``good fiction'' in the sense that I mean than the book in mainstream that is published the same day. >I believe that, even under the constraint that you have to be able >to immerse yourself in the book, this view is incorrect. You, of >course, are welcome to feel otherwise, but unless you have done >some fairly wide reading outside sf and in current literature, >don't be too surprised if more widely read people snicker behind >your back and attempt to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. I suppose that I should point out the various authors I have read, and also point out the authors mentioned in my posting that you've cut out of your quotes, but I won't. However, I am egotistical enough to state that I am pretty widely read, in German and English. In Science Fiction, Fantasy, mainstream fiction, poetry, history and philosophy. I even read Chinese to some extent, and have historical publications. But I should thank you for including this last paragraph: this is a near-perfect example of the sort of pseudo-argument that I was speaking of when I mentioned the ``elitist response.'' You are pretty explicitly saying that taking this stand suggests that I am not a literary sophisticate (sell me the Brooklyn Bridge, indeed.) This reasoning is so patently circular that I will dignify it with no further response. A summing up: I am not simply saying ``I couldn't understand these books, therefore they must be bad.'' I am specifically stating that the sine qua non of ``good fiction'' is the ability to produce the vivid and shared dream. I specifically reject what I feel to have been your contention, that the worth of a work of fiction is the worth of the ideas in that fiction (fiction-as-hidden-essay.) And I still believe that SF (and other genre fiction, e.g. mystery stories) is more likely to take care to produce that vivid dream than mainstream. However, Bill Ingogly and Davis Tucker and I had been approaching something like a consensus, I think. Fun to have another opposition member. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Sequels Date: 11 Jun 85 15:53:23 GMT Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that Lord of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to listen to anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a nice story). There's an interesting article in the latest issue of Discover about why sequels are often let-downs (amongst other things). It's due to a statistical principle called "Regression toward the mean" which says that average results happen more often than extreme results (either good or bad), so any extreme result is usually followed by an average result. This means that if an author writes a very good book, it is more likely to be followed by a less good book, simply because the average happens more often. Of course, one author's average may be a good deal better than another author's average, but almost no one stays at the peak consistently (sad to say, for example, that Sword of the Lictor is noticeably weaker in my opinion than the other books of the New Sun, even though the four books taken together blow most of the rest of the field out of the water). By the way, the same principle (regression of the mean) has a very interesting effect in education. We know (from many many experiments) that praise and positive reinforcement are better teaching methods in the long run than punishment and negative reinforcement. However, the opposite is frequently perceived to be true by teachers. When a student does something very good, he/she will be praised; but the next time, the student probably won't be as good, simply because average performances usually follow extreme performances. On the other hand, when a student does something really dumb, he/she will probably be punished; and the next time, the student's performance will probably not be as bad, because again, average performances usually follow the extreme. From the teacher's point of view then, the punishment produced a better performance while the praise was followed by a less good performance. The teacher is therefore inclined to believe that punishment is more effective in producing results. The article in Discover is full of all kinds of nifty things like this: faulty reasoning that assumes statistical effects are due to other causes. Worthwhile reading for anyone in a decision-making position. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jun 85 1109-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #218 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 218 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Donaldson (2 msgs) & Herbert & King & Panshin & Vance & Alternate History Bibliography & Footfall, Television - Rumor from PBS, Miscellaneous - Telling the Plot (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 85 23:57:13 pdt From: stever@cit-vax (Steve Rabin ) Subject: The Broken Sword Is anyone out there conversant on the differences between the 1954 and 1971 versions of Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword"? -s ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: Wounded Land series Date: 15 Jun 85 08:43:20 GMT CHRIS%cit-vax@engvax.UUCP writes: > How does one express superlatives enough for the Chronicles of >Thomas Covenant? There is so much going on in these books that it >amazes me every time that I reread the series. As creative fantasy >it's a work of art in my own (not so) humble opinion. Personally, >I belive that the Wounded Land series aren't so much good fantasy >as an exposition on ethics couched as good fantasy. Thank [REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR DEITY] for that! Someone who got as big a mindf**k out of reading Thomas Covenant as I did. I was so annoyed when it got slagged off in THE PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION IV. The guy who sent the article obviously did not understand what it was all about. Thank you from the bottom of my ring for reaffirming that I'm not the only idiot yelling in the wilderness about how great these books are. Chris said everything I always say and more. One thing. When I read them the first time, I sympathised with Covenant,because I knew he would find it in him eventually. Perhaps lepers are everywhere. R.Ramsay ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Wounded Land series Date: 16 Jun 85 01:58:19 GMT I've read 5 books of T.C., which I found compulsive reading. There are certainly some good ideas in the books, but I would shy WAY back from a lot of the statements that have been made about the series. There is a certain dreary sameness of tone in the books which eventually killed my interest. Something that I didn't notice originally was that great tracts are tremendously overwritten or contain other stylistic faults. I am told (although I confess I don't remember the passage) that the following sentence is taken from a T.C. book: "The horses were virtually protrate on their feet." One could, I suppose, take this to be poetic; but it gets to you after a while. This same problem occurs in what is otherwise a very good story: "Unworthy of the Angel". What really struck me as absurd was someone's statement in an earlier article that there was no connection between the Land and Middle Earth. Donaldson himself has said that "I consider fiction to be the only valid tool for theological inquiry." Certainly there is a strong mythopoeic quality to the books; what is more important is the cosmology stated in the very first book. Anyone who has read the _Silmarillion_ should be able to recognize the obvious parallels between Sauron and Lord Foul. This is not to say that I think there is any plagarism involved; but when two writers go to write mythopoeic fiction dealing with cosmological issues, and when both come out of a well-learned Judaeo-Christian background, it is to be expected that there should be some parallels. I would not say that the T.C. books are great literature (as I would, for instance, say of LOTR). On the other hand, there is obvious talent there in spite of the various problems. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe ------------------------------ From: ncoast!chandave@topaz.arpa (Davy Chan) Subject: Request: Last chpt of Chapterhouse: Dune Date: 12 Jun 85 23:21:46 GMT Some time ago there was a discussion on the meaning of the last chapter of Chapterhouse: Dune. I have misplaced my copy of these article(s). If anyone archived them I would appreciate you mailing them to me. See ya... d.c. ------------------------------ From: maynard!campbell@topaz.arpa (Larry Campbell) Subject: Re: Stephen King a.k.a. Richard Bachman???? Date: 14 Jun 85 10:52:50 GMT > Having just finished the book 'Thinner' by Richard Bachman, I am a > bit puzzled by the small white wrapper which was around the book > upon which was printed 'Stephen King writing as Richard > Bachman'... I've seen two articles in the past couple of months about this. Seems publishers don't like to carry too many titles by one author at a time; makes them hard to promote, and apparently they'll sell more books if they wring one dry before publishing the next one. But Steven King is one of the most prolific writers around today. So he published a bunch of books under the Bachman name. He's gone public with it now, and I don't think he'll write any more under that name. The "author's picture" on some books is some random guy from N.H., not named Bachman. Larry Campbell The Boston Software Works, Inc., 120 Fulton St., Boston MA 02109 UUCP: {decvax, security, linus, mit-eddie} !genrad!enmasse!maynard!campbell ARPA: decvax!genrad!enmasse!maynard!campbell@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Sequels - The Galactic Pantograph Date: 20 Jun 85 06:00:24 GMT I have heard it said that Panshin has mortgaged his career to pull a fast one on Ace Books. They bought his next n novels at one point and paid him in advance. He spent the advance payment but did not want to write books if he was not going to get any more money for them. The loophole in the contract was that he could publish co-authorships elsewhere. That is why his wife's name has started appearing on his books. But nobody can get too enthusiastic about publishing him after his little trick, so he is sort of a falling star. In the meantime his writing talent is flagging. I don't know for sure if this story is true. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: luke!bob@topaz.arpa (Bob Speray) Subject: wanted: Jack Vance books Date: 11 Jun 85 23:22:11 GMT I am looking for some obscure paperback books by Jack Vance. Dying Earth Hillman 1950 Space Pirate Toby Press 1953 digest sized Madman Theory Pocket Bks 1966 ( as Ellery Queen ) Bad Ronald Ballantine 1973 ( as John Holbrook Vance ) I'm looking for the particular book described not just a copy of the text. I have equally obscure books by other authors available. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 85 11:43:39 EDT From: KERN@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: Alternate History Bibliography Cc: mtgzz!ecl%ihnp4.uucp@TOPAZ.ARPA > The idea of an alternate history is not rare in science >fiction--a recent article the THE PROPER BOSKONIAN cited a >bibliography over over a thousand stories! Please tell me how to get a copy of this bibliography. I'm sure the dozens of other alternate history fans would like to know too. Thanks, Kevin B. Kern KERN@RUTGERS.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jun 85 14:45:54 PDT (Thursday) From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Review: Footfall (Niven & Pournell) I just finished Niven and Pournell's "Footfall", and have a few things to say about it. I guess this review is going to be "mixed" to "favorable". Overall, "Footfall" was a good, enjoyable read. It wasn't nearly as good as "The Mote in God's Eye", but it was on a par with "Lucifer's Hammer". The cover of the book loudly proclaims that this is "possibly the greatest alien invasion story ever written." I liked Heinlein's "The Puppet Masters" better. However, "Footfall" does have a lot going for it. While the ending was obvious by the halfway point (and enjoyable anyway), there were quite a few unexpected twists. And I do have respect for an author who has the guts to kill off a central character or two, and can do it well. I guess it helps that there are so many character's that we can afford to lose a few. Much like the Earth of "Lucifer's Hammer", the Earth of "Footfall" is a small world. That is, everybody important to the story somehow knows everybody else in the story from when they were in high school (or spy school, or Congress, or a bar in San Jose, or whatever) together. When this isn't annoying, it can be almost amusing. The treatment of the aliens, the Fithp, left much to be desired. I just can't believe that an obviously intelligent, starfaring race could be so stupid. I also thought that the Fithp were much too human to be convincing aliens. Sure, they thought differently, but a human that grew up in a Fithp society would think the same way, barring hormonal differences. In building aliens that a reader could identify with, the authors created beings that are hardly alien at all. I found the aliens in "Startide Rising" much more alien and much more believable. The treatment of humans also left much to be desired. Niven and Pournell's characters are always much too white, too average, too respectable. As in "Lucifer's Hammer", every black character of any consequence in "Footfall" was snuffed. There were no Jews, no orientals, no homosexuals, no character who was non-average in any way except that he/she happened to be brave/stupid/(un)lucky enough to be where the action was. I'm sorry, but I found most of the characters boring and predictable. Nevertheless, I did like "Footfall". It's probably not worth the $20 I paid for the hardback (my friends and I take turns buying new books in hardback so we don't have to wait for the paperback), but it is worth reading. As SCIENCE FICTION, it was very good. As a novel, it was okay. Good reading, Josh Susser ARPA: Susser.pasa@Xerox.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 85 11:50:58 pdt From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley Subject: Neat rumour Latest neat rumour (from that ever present reliable source) has the same group who did 'Lathe of Heaven' for PBS doing 'Left Hand of Darkness', also for PBS. Leguin is said to want Glenda Jackson for Estraven, although that might not happen. Joe Kalash ucbvax!unisoft!kalash kalash@berkeley <- will get forwarded ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Telling the Plot (re Leeper review) Date: 9 Jun 85 13:46:35 GMT "It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche. May I point out that ALL of us know the plot of Alice in Wonderland but I doubt if we think that ruins the book. Do you people REALLY think that rereading a book can never possibly be as much fun as reading it the first time, because the book is -- horrors! -- "at least partially ruined"? For me, one of the significant differences between a good book and one read only to kill time is that I can read the former again and again and again, each time thrilling to the old things and noticing new ones. Edmund Wilson wrote a rather nice essay ("The Psychology of Form vs the Psychology of Information") in which he drew a significant distinction between reading the phone book and reading Macbeth--and rereading them. If Leeper was too busy to summarize the plot of the book being reviewed, that's understandable. Especially given the number of Leeper reviews that appear every week. If Leeper thought the book wasn't worth summarizing, that's understandable too. But as it is, *grumph*. (Ah well, the same stupid attitude manifests itself in the popular use of the term "spoiler." *Grumph* again.) Incidentally, I just finished rereading the original two ALICE books in the annotated version -- and am pleased to report that THAT didn't "spoil" or "ruin" them for me. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Telling the Plot (re Leeper review) Date: 18 Jun 85 07:38:43 GMT > "It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least > partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche. > > May I point out that ALL of us know the plot of Alice in > Wonderland but I doubt if we think that ruins the book. Do you > people REALLY think that rereading a book can never possibly be as > much fun as reading it the first time, because the book is -- > horrors! -- "at least partially ruined"? Well, let me re-phrase myself--if I tell you the plot, I will ruin the enjoyment you'll get from watching it unfold yourself. Watching the "Alice" chess game develop is more fun than having someone explain it all to you first, at least for me. > If Leeper was too busy to summarize the plot of the book being > reviewed, that's understandable. Especially given the number of > Leeper reviews that appear every week. Don't forget that half of the "Leeper reviews" are by *Mark* Leeper, not me. If enough people wannt me to stop posting reviews, I will bow to public opinion. Otherwise, use the 'n' key. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Telling the Plot (re Leeper review) Date: 12 Jun 85 14:57:02 GMT >"It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least >partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche. This is the other Leeper, but I also have views on the responsibilities of a reviewer. >May I point out that ALL of us know the plot of Alice in Wonderland >but I doubt if we think that ruins the book. Do you people REALLY >think that rereading a book can never possibly be as much fun as >reading it the first time, because the book is -- horrors! -- "at >least partially ruined"? "Ruin" is a strong word. All kinds of nasty things can be done to the reading experience without totally ruining it. What is important is does the review DETRACT FROM THE PLEASURE of reading the story. If so the reviewer should not do it. Sure, a second reading can be more fun than the first, so what? Does that make it justified for the reviewer diminishing the pleasure on the first reading? The second reading is more pleasurable not because the reader knows the plot in advance, usually, but because the reader sees more in the story. And even in the hypothetical case that knowing the plot in advance actually would improve the experience, that is apparently not the author's intention. Otherwise the story would start out "This is the story of how...". The real problem of reviewing is the work that cannot be reviewed without detracting from the experience. Somebody took me to task recently for spoiling a surprise in the film LADYHAWKE, that of revealing the nature of the curse. The complaint was quite correct and I have no idea what a good review of this film would be since it is virtually impossible to say anything of substance about the film without revealing the nature of the curse. Every review I saw spoiled this surprise. Perhaps this is a film that really should not be reviewed at all. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Telling the Plot (re Leeper review) Date: 14 Jun 85 18:14:08 GMT >> Don't forget that half of the "Leeper reviews" are by *Mark* >> Leeper, not me. >> Evelyn C. Leeper > >That's what you'd like us to believe, I'm sure, but I happen to >know that Mark and Evelyn Leeper are... *the same person*! Curses, I have been discovered! Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jun 85 1132-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #219 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 219 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison (3 msgs) & Zelazny (3 msgs) & Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers & Green China Doll, Films - Night of the Lepus & Warriors of the Wind, Television - Banned TV Shows & Sequels (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: The Terminator vs. Harlan Ellison Date: 12 Jun 85 15:32:34 GMT root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith) writes: >chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >> off their short story 'Brillo' about a robot cop. .... >How do you differentiate between rip-offs and coincidence? The >idea of a robot cop doesn't sound so obtuse to guarantee another >writer won't think of it again... and invent story lines around it. In the Bova/Ellison case, the network had bought Brillo with a creative control clause for Ellison and Bova -- Ellison and Bova came to realize that the network was making crap from a pretty good story, and couldn't get them to stop, so they withdrew the story. The network made the show anyway, trying to use just this argument. And lost. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR Date: 14 Jun 85 19:55:18 GMT > The court will then decide strictly on the merits of the stories > whether plagiarism has occurred or Ellison is just being a > litiginous swine. Since I respect Ellison, I hope it will be the > former, but time will tell. > Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo I basically agree with Jim, but would like to expand a little on his points and request some information. I think that regarding Ellison as a litiginous swine rests on the assumption that his basis for suit was in fact the Outer Limits episodes mentioned in earlier postings. Having seen these episodes, I'd have to say that *if* Ellison based an action on those episodes *then* he is a litiginous swine. Ellison's position in the Brillo affair is (it seems to me) more respectable. If, as in the Brillo case, Ellison was hired to work on The Terminator in some capacity, and was fired under somewhat unjust circumstances, I'd have more sympathy with his position. Therefore: Does anyone out there in netland have information on either of these two points: Was Harlan Ellison hired in any capacity during production of or planning for The Terminator? If not, does anyone know for (fairly) certain the grounds the Destroyer Lawyer (hmpf!) was planning to base his case? Since I lack information on these two points, I don't have an opinion on Ellison's litiginousness or swinehood. Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Jun 85 09:12 EDT From: schneider.WBST@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #204 J Gomez at OSU writes: >The movie version of "A Boy and His Dog" is one of the most >faithful adaptions of a wirtten work Hollywood has ever done. The >ending is just as it is in the story, virtually word for word..... Spoiler warning.... While the movie version has Vic and Blood walking off into the sunset with Blood comment on the girl's intelligence "although she did have good taste," the Ellison work has Vic's thoughts as the ending: "I kept hearing her voice in my head, asking me if I knew what love was. Sure I did, a boy loves his dog, doesn't he?" The different endings change the whole context of the story, I think the movie is rather barbaric and callous toward women, with no point made, while the book shows a clear conflict with some interesting resolutions. The moral is see the movie, but read the book too. Regards- Eric ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 14 Jun 1985 11:02:12-PDT From: goldenberg%vaxwrk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ruth Goldenberg) Subject: "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" by Zelazny I just finished a first reading of a Zelazny story in the July IASFM, and I'm surprised not to have noticed it mentioned here already. (Did I miss it?) It's called "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai". I'm not going to try to describe its plot or review it. I will say, however, that this story should really cheer any of you out there like me who have been disappointed by Zelazny's more recent work. My library is still in boxes after a move, so I can't quote titles that disappointed me other than to cite the Amber series, which seemed awfully light and puffy and beneath him. In my opinion, this story should be classed up there with Lord of Light; Dream Master; This Immortal; (~)Door of his Mouth, Lamps of his Eyes; Rose for Ecclesiastes and other great short stories. I think it has soul (which is doubtless as difficult to define as quality and possibly more rare). I haven't been buying sf magazines or many anthologies the past 5-10 years. If Zelazny's been writing stories of this quality that I've missed, I hope someone like Jerry Boyajian or SZKB will point me to them. "...I'd go mental in a corner, and joy would be my middle name." reg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jun 85 11:49:36 pdt From: unisoft!kalash@Berkeley Subject: Zelazny book > For Zelazny at his best try "Doorway in the Sand", "Isle of the > Dead" or "To Die in Italbar" Oh my LORD you have bad taste. Doorway is VERY light frothy adventure, and Italbar is probably his worst book, he published it ONLY to fulfill a publishing contract, and he admits himself that it isn't all that good. If you want a light adventure, try "Jack of Shadows". For something more deep, try "Dream Master", "This Immortal" or "Creatures of Light and Darkness". Joe Kalash ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Zelazny & Computers Date: 15 Jun 85 14:01:43 GMT Suggesting that the author of "For a Breath I Tarry" shouldn't deal with computers! Sacrilege! (No, I haven't read the later book, but I do recommend the earlier Faustian story.) --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: warwick@blott.DEC Subject: Re: STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS Date: 13 Jun 85 12:56:02 GMT I bought this book for 20p in a sale at my local library, and as such it rates as one of the best bargains I've ever bought. I thought that it was extremely funny - especially the poke at E.E.Smith, cause you've got to admit, that some of his stuff was a little corny in places. trevor warwick Engineering Division, Digital Equipment Corporation, Reading, England. UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-tron!warwick ARPA: warwick%tron.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jun 85 23:50:07 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: "Prey" >...a vicious native doll who terrorizes the woman who bought it Reminds me strongly of a story which circulated among us when we were kids, called "The Green China Doll". There were, as with any good folk story, as many versions as tellers. Some years later, I was given a phone call by a woman who was collecting versions of the story for her dissertation on folklore. Do you know a version of it? Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: A comment on NIGHT OF THE LEPUS Date: 14 Jun 85 16:55:01 GMT Someone who wrote to me recently was complaining how bad the film NIGHT OF THE LEPUS was. I have a comment about that... NIGHT OF THE LEPUS has an undeserved reputation for being really bad. It is really only mediocre. We have a tendency to think of rabbits as little meek things and to find them cute so it is hard to think of them as monsters. YEAR OF THE ANGRY RABBIT, which I am told was quite decent as a book, was not a good choice to be made into a film. The film was not THAT terrible, it just wasn't very good. It was no worse than, say, KINGDOM OF THE SPIDERS, a similar film that got away without all the notoriety that LEPUS got. Some breeds of rabbit, I am told, can be fierce fighters and large rabbits that fierce could easily be dangerous. It didn't help the film that some of the visualizations of the rabbits looked like something out of Captain Kangaroo. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: genat!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stephenson) Subject: Re: NAUSICAA - Warriors of the Wind (Movie) Date: 13 Jun 85 18:32:49 GMT > From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA > > I have just seen the trailer to a new film to be released real > soon. Entitled "Warriors of the Wind", it is the english adaption > of a Japanese epic "Nausicca." [With an um-laut over the last A] I am pleased to hear that this exceptional piece of animation will be making it into the North American market. By the way, the title as our people translated it from Japanese was "Nausicaa in the Valley of the Winds", but this doesn't really matter much. Interestingly enough, the folks who produced this movie, and who also produce such jems as Lupin III, are planning a second Nausicaa movie, also adapted from the manga (Japanese comics) from which sprung the original movie. Mike Stephenson ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Date: 14 Jun 85 03:31:13 GMT Have any episodes of DR WHO,UFO or 1999 been banned in the U.S.? I know that certain Star Trek episodes were banned in Texas & four were banned in Britain, the reason being violence. The reasons given for the banning in Texas indicate that some of the British shows may run in to similar problems. Notably THE PYRAMIDS OF MARS story from DR WHO dealing with Egyptian Gods & THE TROUBLESOME SPIRIT & LAMBDA FACTOR episodes of 1999 dealing with ghosts and strange powers. Has this happened? Andy T. ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Wed, 12 Jun 85 23:52:13 PDT Subject: Serials - Continuing One the subject of writing a sequel if the publisher wants one... Douglas Adams once explained the reason behind the 6th and 7th episode of the original Hitchhiker's Guide. It seems they only wrote one seasons worth, and after that they killed off all the main characters. When the BBC requested additional stories, the writers cooked up the sceme of time-dropping and the ancient earth with kangaroo drive and saved the characters from the final curtain. This was not too noticeable in the final release over here. Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ From: crystal!shp@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Sequels Date: 14 Jun 85 01:03:49 GMT > Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that Lord > of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to listen to > anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a nice > story). "The Lord of the Rings" isn't a sequel to "The Hobbit." Not really, anyway. Kind of like chapter two isn't really a sequel to chapter one, nor is chapter one really a sequel to the preface. Go back and re-read your Tolkien, if you do not understand. Not that this is really relevant; I just didn't want to let it pass as it stands (your point and deleted argument are QUITE valid). =shp ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 14 Jun 1985 13:38:42-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Series, sequels, and SF/Fantasy One of the latest "hot topics" in this bulletin is the question of whether sequels and series books deserve the merit of the original publication. We've seen discussions of the Foundation series, the DUNE series, and others, with a heavy emphasis on criticizing the author's intentions in these cases. We've also heard (gently) a reminder that writers "have to eat, too." All of these discussions have revolved around the intentions of the authors, or their publishers, although the original criticism did attack readers who delight in one book after another in a series. Certainly, the series concept is being overdone. I personally have postponed my reading of the "Thomas Covenant" series until it stops growing. It seems that every time I go to the bookstore to pick up the first few in this series, it has grown by another book or two. It's rather like sitting down to eat from a bottomless lunchbox -- disheartening and eventually nauseating. But I am also guilty of welcoming the appearance of new books in some series that I have truly enjoyed. I didn't have to read Asimov's original short stories that were the basis for Foundation and Second Foundation, to know that Foundation's Edge was neither planned when the concept was first published, nor is it really a necessary part of the original trilogy. It was obvious to me, as its reader, that Foundation's Edge is an interesting continuation of a story that was pretty much concluded in Second Foundation. However, I enjoyed Foundation so much that I was happy to visit the same characters in the sequel. In the Science Fiction genre, and, to some extent, in Fantasy also, an author faces a challenge unique in literature, in that an entire technological premise or alternate universe must be described in satisfactory detail without damaging the plot of the book: the action that keeps a reader involved with the story and characters. I have read many, many books where the author accomplished this within the limitation of one cover. I assert that the trilogy ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 14 Jun 1985 15:08:31-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Series and sequels in SF and Fantasy My deepest apologies -- the previous mail message was accidentally cut off. I'll never get used to VMS quirks! My original point, however, was a discussion of the value of series in Science Fiction and Fantasy. I was just beginning to explain my feeling that Science Fiction authors (and, to a degree, authors of Fantasy) have a very special problem: how to describe a world that is alien to the readers' experience? Many short stories in the field exemplify the skill of certain authors in drawing from the readers' own experience to create the desired setting. But the books that really explain and detail the worlds, technology, and society in great detail are often enhanced by second, or even third volumes. U. K. LeGuin's Earthsea Trilogy, for example, views Earthsea from three different perspectives, each focusing on a different aspect, while the three books cooperate to draw a realistic, detailed view. I share some of the opinions voiced here about the repetitive and trivial nature about some sequels, but I find them valuable at times, and often a great joy. One series, however, seems to have gone beyond the limits of good taste. I am a lover of Herbert's Dune since I first read it. The concept lost its flavor with the second of the books, and I mercilessly forced myself to read God Emperor. My latest visit to the bookstore showed me that there are at least 3 more in the series! Needless to say, I will not be so eager to begin them. But I find it highly amusing that the Dune Dictionary won the HUGO. I guess I'm not the only one starting to get lost! :-) But I'm not so relieved to find such a reference as those who choose the award winners. I'm not going to bother with any more Dune books. Frank Herbert has some fine and interesting publications that are totally unrelated to the series. I suggest White Plague as an interesting alternative. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Jun 85 1202-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #220 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 17 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 220 Today's Topics: Books - SF Poll (2 msgs), Films - The Black Cauldron & Alien, Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Literary Sterility (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa Subject: SF Poll. "Best" 59 books (so far). Film at 11. Date: 12 Jun 85 01:09:36 GMT Well here's the current state of the poll, keep those cards and letters coming! (Those of you who tried to send mail within the last five days - this is June 11 - probably got it returned with an obscure mailer error, mea culpa, as is the way of all programmers i was trying to "improve" my machine environment and accidentally blew myself out of the water. Sigh. Please repost). I tried to send mail to everyone who responded so far, but it looks like many have "gone off system", when the final tally is in i'll include a list of all who contributed. Call to Chris Jarocha-Ernst - Please mail old list! Thanks. Here are the top 59 books ordered by number of votes and within each block alphabetically by author. So far i have received about 40 mail messages with 500 (!!) books recommended with about 145 authors in all. To me there seem to be many unexplained "oversights" (like Hogan,Blish,Ballard,Chalker,Campbell,Delaney,Duane,Tiptree,etc!). But then if i knew what was "Canonical" i wouldn't have to run the poll in the first place. Keep 'em coming! Asimov, Isaac - I, Robot (2) Asprin, Robert - Another Fine Myth (2) Beagle, Peter - The Last Unicorn (2) Bester, Alfred - The Demolished Man (2) Bradley, Marion - The Darkover Series (2) Bradbury, Ray - Fahrenheit 451 (2) Brin, David - The Practice Effect (2) Brunner, John - Shockwave Rider (2) Brust, Steven - Jhereg (2) Brust, Steven - Yendi (2) Clarke, Arthur - Rendezvous with Rama (2) De Camp, L. Sprague and Pratt, Fletcher - The Complete Enchanter (2) Dickson, Gordon R. - The Tactics of Mistake (2) Eddings, David - The Belgariad Pentology (2) Gibson, William - Neuromancer (2) Haldeman, Joe - The Forever War (2) Harrison, Harry - Bill, the Galactic Hero (2) Harrison, Harry - Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers (2) Heinlein, Robert - Starship Troopers (2) Heinlein, Robert - The Puppet Masters (2) LeGuin, Ursula - The Left Hand of Darkness (2) Lem, Stanislaw - The Cyberiad (2) McKinley, Robin - Beauty (2) May, Julian - The Saga of the Pleocene Exile Tetrology (2) Myers Myers, John - Silverlock (2) Niven, Larry - Protector (2) Niven, Larry - The Integral Trees (2) Panshin, Alexei - Rite of Passage (2) Piper, H. Beam - Little Fuzzy (2) Pohl, Frederick - Gateway (2) Robinson, Spider - Callahan's Crosstime Salloon (2) Rosenberg, Joel - The Guardians of the Flame Series (2) Stasheff, Christopher - The Warlock in Spite of Himself (2) Vance, Jack - The Dying Earth (2) Wells, H. G. - The War of The Worlds (2) Wyndham, John - The Midwich Cuckoos (2) Zelazny, Roger - The Doors of His Face, The Lamps of His Mouth (2) Asimov, Isaac - The Foundation Tetrology (3) Brunner, John - The Sheep Look Up (3) Brunner, John - Stand on Zanzibar (3) Clement, Hal - Mission of Gravity (3) Donaldson, Steven R. - The Thomas Covenant Trilogy (3) Farmer, Philip - To Your Scattered Bodies Go (3) Ford, John - The Final Reflection (3) Heinlein, Robert - Stranger in a Strange Land (3) LeGuin, Ursula - The Dispossessed (3) McCaffery, Anne - The Pern books (3) Smith, E. E. 'Doc' - The Lensman Series (3) Zelazny, Roger - Creatures of Light and Darkness (3) Brin, David - Sundiver (4) Herbert, Frank - Dune (4) Heinlein, Robert - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (4) Tolkien, J. R. R. - The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (4) Varley, John - The Persistence of Vision (collection of short stories) (4) Zelazny, Roger - Lord of Light (4) Niven, Larry - Ringworld (5) Wolfe, Gene - The Book of the New Sun Tetrology (5) Brin, David - Startide Rising (6) Niven, Larry and Pournelle, Jerry - The Mote in God's Eye (6) Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: Re: SF Poll. Top 40 authors. Notes on format etc. Date: 15 Jun 85 02:21:15 GMT Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: >Can we make negative votes on authors in your list - each negative >vote cancelling out one positive vote? >Dave Uhhhh....Run that past me one more time? Since this is a list of the Canonical books in SF it seems to me that everyone should have a say, meaning that if someone went to all the trouble of mailing me a book title it will appear _somewhere_ in the list - although if few others thought it important/entertaining enough it would not be high in the list. It seems that your suggestion would be conducive to a species of "Poll Wars". By the way this is no more "my list" than it is yours (or any net.sf-lovers reader for that matter) - anyone who wants to vote gets equal attention. Also, i note the use of "authors" - this is _not_ a list of "best authors", but "books that everyone should read". Was this a joke i missed or what? Greg. Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ Date: Sun 16 Jun 85 01:33:46-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The Black Cauldron >> ...The Black Cauldron....but the title sounds promising. > Sounds promising? Don't you recognize it? You mean you've > never read Lloyd Alexander?[...] > > The Book of Three > The Black Cauldron > The Castle of Llyr > Taran Wanderer > The High King > der Mouse I don't claim to have specific knowledge of where Disney's writers are getting their plot, but to automatically assume that The Black Cauldron derives from Lloyd Alexanders' work is a little like saying that an earlier Disney opus 'The Sword in the Stone' is based on the film 'Camelot'. Cauldrons appear in several places in ancient Celtic legend. The cauldron most likely to be involved in the movie is the one featured in the story 'Branwen Daughter of Llyr', the oldest surviving manuscript being in The White Book of Rhydderch, which dates to 1300-1325 AD. The story is thought to date back to about 1050, and may well be a 'modernization' of something far older. The cauldron had the property that if you threw a dead soldier into it, the next morning he would have revived (save that he could not speak and give away the secrets of the underworld). If you have the slightest interest in reading the original, I highly recommend that you track down a copy the 'The Mabinogion' by Gwyn Jones and Thomas Jones. This scholarly translation of The Four Ancient Books of Wales first appeared in 1948, but continues in print. My copy is a '74 Dent paperback, but there is also Dutton US paperback (ISBN 0 460 01097 2). The language is a little strange, sort of a King James English, but it carries the alien feel of the original stories very well. Another translation of the stories appears in 'Celtic Myth and Legend' by Charles Squire (Newcastle, ISBN 0 87877 030 5), a trade paperback facsimile of 'The mythology of the British Isles', 1905. Squire tried to pull the raveled threads of legend together into one coherent mythos, and what the tales gain in self consistency they lose in power. However, it does tell (with a Victorian gloss) the tales, including some not in The Mabinogion. Whenever I read a modern fantasy 'based on' an actual myth of which I have read the original (or a faithful translation) I find things that put my teeth on edge. It isn't the departures (sometimes major) from the orginal plot line that bothers me so much as finding late 20th century ethics and mores being espoused by Dark Age men and women. It annoys me to find the ancient tales used as a vehicle for contemporary ideas. The original is so much stranger and wonderful. Here is a short abstract from 'The Voyage of Mael duin'. MD and his companions are on a voyage of exploration, and are running out food: "Now when those apples failed, and their hunger and thirst were great, and when their mouths and their noses were full of the stench of the sea, they sight an island which was not large, and therein (stood) a fort surrounded by a white, high rampart as if it were built of burnt lime, or as if it were all one rock of chalk. Great was its height from the sea; it all but reached the clouds. The fort was open wide. Round the rampart were great, snow-white houses. When they entered the largest of these they saw no one there, save a small cat which was in the midst of the house, playing on the four stone pillars that were there. It was leaping from one pillar to the other. It looked a little at the men, and did not stop itself from its play. After that they saw three rows on the wall of the house round about, from one doorpost to the other. A row there, first, of brooches of gold and of silver, with their pins in the wall, and a row of neck-torques of gold and of silver: like hoops of a vat was each of them. The third row (was) of great swords, with hilts of gold and of silver. The rooms were full of white quilts and shining garments. A roasted ox, moreover, and a flitch in the midst of the house, and great vessels with good intoxicating liquor. "Hath this been left for *us*?" saith Mael duin to the cat. It looked at him suddenly and began to play again. Then Mael duin recognized that it was for them that the dinner had been left. So they dined and drank and slept. They put the leavings of thee liquor into the pots, and stored up the leavings of the food. Now when they proposed to go, Mael duin's third fosterbrother said: "Shall I take with me a necklace of these necklaces?" "Nay," saith Mael duin, "not without a guard is the house". Howbeit he took it as far as the middle of the enclosure. The cat followed them, and leapt through him (the fosterbrother) like a fiery arrow, and burnt him so that he became ashes, and (then) went back till it was on its pillar. Then Mael duin soothed the cat with his words, and set the necklace in its place, and cleansed the ashes from the floor of the enclosure, and cast them on the shore of the sea. Then they went on board their boat, praising and magnifying the Lord." This, and many other original tales evoke for me the 'sense of wonder' which I find missing in such modern glosses as 'The Mists of Avalon.' Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR Date: 14 Jun 85 14:35:40 GMT leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: >After Fox made ALIEN, Van Vogt threatened to sue over similarities >to his "Discord in Scarlet." Apparently egg-laying aliens is >another owned idea. I object, Mark! When I saw Alien I thought so much was taken that I expected to see Van Vogt in the credits. It's not just an egg-laying alien ... it's an alien picked up by an interstellar ship that lays eggs in people and lurks almost indetectably in the ship picking off a crewman at a time in horrible ways. I don't disagree with your Ellison points -- he disowned his only work that I've ever liked, so he gets no sympathy from me -- but I think your sarcasm is uncalled for on this one. Besides, Van Vogt didn't sue, did he? Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: icdoc!iwm@topaz.arpa (Ian Moor) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it Date: 14 Jun 85 09:10:55 GMT hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (The Polymath) writes: >the most incongruities and logical flaws. Two of my favorites were >the never-ending supplies of people and "Eagle" space craft. They >seemed to loose at least one and usually several of each every >episode without creating any shortages, or even much concern. Not that I am defending Space 1949 but ... What about the never-ending supply of security officers on the Enterprise (the ones at the tail end of the group that got grabbed zapped or whatever.. and the other one "Smith go back and find out what happened to Jones" Is it true that a ship was reported at a range of 10 'microns' in Battlestar pathetica ? Ian W Moor Department of Computing 180 Queensgate London SW7 Uk. ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 15 Jun 85 19:48:46 GMT > *PLEASE* can those who are guilty stop slagging Space 1999, UFO et > al. There was nothing wrong with them when you were young. > (weren't you guys *ever* kids?) I was twelve when 1999 first premiered. I thought it was bug eyed monsters then. The premiere had radiation turning people's eyes into fried eggs. (Remember that?) The show was bug eyed monsters and more bug eyed monsters. > Who gives a toss about the force required to blast the moon out of > the Earths orbit? Most sci-fi is far fetched - it's meant to be. But why does it have to be? Couldn't the writers have spent a little more time with the typewriter and taken it out of the realm of bug eyed monsters? The show had potential. The show's budget was adequate. Catherine Schell, Barry Morse, and the Landaus were all adequate. The scripts that made the actors say the dumbest lines were the problem. Those same script writers shot the moon out of orbit. I say shoot the writers! > Constructive criticism and personal opinions yes, but cut out the > slagging. What's the difference? This is the net, land of flames :-) ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: literary sterility Date: 12 Jun 85 13:56:22 GMT reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA writes: >> Charlie Martin writes: >>Have you ever read (or tried to read) a story in which you were >>never able to become engrossed in the story? Where you were >>always conscious that you were ... reading ... a ... book? Then I >>believe you were reading something that I call sterile. > >Odd definition of literary sterility. The term "sterility" is >usually meant to convey something incapable of reproducing, so I >would have thought literary sterility to mean that the work in >question is a dead end, that it will have no influence on future >works, perhaps that it does not stimulate speculation or thought. >Your use of "sterility" strikes me as, intentional or not, an >attempt to misuse a word so that you can take advantage of its >perjorative connotations. ... Sorry, Charlie's definition of literary sterility is close to the standard one. From Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College Edition: ... 3. lacking in interest or vitality; not stimulating or effective [a sterile style] ... I won't presume to respond to the rest of your response to him, but I did want to set the record straight on this point. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: literary sterility Date: 12 Jun 85 20:38:29 GMT and Bill's response reminds me, when I said that we were approaching a concensus, it didn't mean that Bill and DAvis and I all *agree* -- just want to make sure this wasn't misrepresented. I'll be out of town for a week or so, have fun while I'm gone. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jun 85 1008-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #221 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 18 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 221 Today's Topics: Books - Bear & King & Robinson & Walton & Carcinoma Angel (2 msgs), Films - Alien, Television - Space: 1999 (4 msgs) & Gerry Anderson, Miscellaneous - Sequels & SFL Party ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tuesday, 18 Jun 1985 05:21:52-PDT From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: "NIGHT OF POWER" & "BLOOD MUSIC" "NIGHT OF POWER" has been on the shelf for over a month, just thought I'd let you know. I have just finished the new Greg Bear book "BLOOD MUSIC", I think it is wonderful. "BLOOD MUSIC" is about genetic experiments & the results. I rate this book an 9 (out of 10). The book is only in hardcover right now and is kind of hard to find, but, its worth looking for. *** don't read the cover blurbs as they contain spoilers *** I would give a more in-depth review, but, anything I say could give away part of the plot. later, KEN COBB ------------------------------ Subject: Stephen King From: MURPH%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (M.A. Murphy) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1985 01:45 EDT Since someone already answered the query about the King/Bachman picture discrepancy, I shall avoid duplication. I would like to say that Stephen King does not look, in person, quite like his representation on Am. Express commercials. Make up can do wonders... Not to say that he is ugly, but he does look a lot better on the commercials than when I have seen him walking his dog. Maybe it's because his dog is ugly... and that just detracts from King himself. Oh well. Now you all know that Stephen King has an ugly dog... ------------------------------ Date: Mon 17 Jun 85 14:55:42-PDT From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Night of Power Night of Power by Spider Robinson was a May 85 hardcover from Baen Books (the independent science fiction editor for Pocket Books) and distributed by Simon and Schuster. I would be totally amazed if you could find the book at a chain bookstore. Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 05:49:00 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: The Mabinogion (with a hard "g"!) The person who despairs of what has been wreaked on the Four Branches over the centuries might do well to look up the original Welsh -- after all, even translations are defiling! (:-) Seriously, the best editions to be had for study are those published by the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. Each Branch (there are only 2 out so far, maybe 3 by now) comes framed with introduction and copious notes, and there is a glossary in back. For the brave. And the purist. For the cowardly, the best modern version I know is (Great Arawn in Annwfn!) the four modern interpretations by Evangeline Walton. They are (with their respective Branch names in English & Welsh) The Prince of Annwn ("Pwyll Pendefic Dyfed"; Pwyll Prince of Dyfed) The Children of Llyr ("Branwen ferch Llyr"; Branwen Daughter of Llyr) The Song of Rhianon ("Manawyddan fab Llyr; Manawyddan Son of Llyr) The Island of the Mighty ("Math fab Mathonwy"; Math Son of Mathonwy) I don't find Walton taking liberties with the stories. She uses the bare Branches as a framework, laying on them leaves of her own interpretation, in the same way as I fancy the tale-tellers of old must have done, using the simple versions as mnemonics for the plot. This is why the original Branches are so short. (The Dublin Inst. books are more notes than text!) Walton's stories are good stuff. Conflict of culture & ideals, conflict between this World and the Otherworld, tragedy and heroism, archetypes, adventures, fighting, loving, and like that. I recommend them even to those (and there seem to be many on this list...) who dislike Fantasy. It's such a shame that her later works are not up to par. Sigh. Bendithion i chi! Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan) Subject: Carcinoma Angel Date: 16 Jun 85 16:15:38 GMT For some reason the title "Carcinoma Angel" has been floating around in my head. I think it would make a good name for a rock group or something. In any case, I'm sure it's the title for an SF story I read, but I can't remember where or what it is about. I think it might have been by Harlan Ellison. Is this right? Does anyone know what it is about? -Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP {or ARPA} ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angel Date: 24 Jun 85 07:16:38 GMT >For some reason the title "Carcinoma Angel" has been floating >around in my head. I think it would make a good name for a rock >group or something. In any case, I'm sure it's the title for an SF >story I read, but I can't remember where or what it is about. I >think it might have been by Harlan Ellison. Is this right? Does >anyone know what it is about? Let me be the first of the 139 people who are going to answer this one. "The Carcinoma Angels" is a story by Norman Spinrad from his collection LAST HURRAH OF THE GOLDEN HORDE. It contains images of cancer cells riding through the characters body like motercycle riders. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR Date: 24 Jun 85 07:11:23 GMT >>After Fox made ALIEN, Van Vogt threatened to sue over similarities >>to his "Discord in Scarlet." Apparently egg-laying aliens is >>another owned idea. > > I object, Mark! When I saw Alien I thought so much was taken that > I expected to see Van Vogt in the credits. It's not just an > egg-laying alien ... it's an alien picked up by an interstellar > ship that lays eggs in people Sorry, the idea of a creature that lays its eggs in other creatures and uses them distructively to incubate them was used long ago by a fellow named E. Coli. Mr. Coli has been using this idea for millions of years now. Admittedly he is not an alien, but you don't see him every day. >and lurks almost indetectibly in the ship picking off a crewman at >a time in horrible ways. The alien creature was an amalgam of the least esthetic traits of several different Terrestrial creatures. For example, left on the the cutting room floor was the scene in which Capt. Dallas was found alive, trussed up in silk the way a spider would, to be feasted on a bit at a time. (An early review, based on the prerelease version especially mentioned this nightmarish scene--I bet it would have been a good one, too.) Apparently the scene was cut out just before release and I am told it is still in the novel. Other places it looks and grabs like a crab, etc. In any case, it is easy to see that they have it reproduce by pumping genetic material into a victim like a wasp or a virus, and letting it incubate, leaving the victim alive, until they hatch and eat their way out. I really think that the similarities to "Discord" are coincidental. And regrettable but accidental. >I don't disagree with your Ellison points -- he disowned his only >work that I've ever liked, so he gets no sympathy from me -- but I >think your sarcasm is uncalled for on this one. Besides, Van Vogt >didn't sue, did he? He threatened to, I have heard, and got a payoff, much like the happened in the recent Ellison incident. Forry Ackerman talked at a convention about how he convinced Van Vogt to sue. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 16 Jun 85 03:18:13 GMT > *PLEASE* can those who are guilty stop slagging Space 1999, UFO et > al. There was nothing wrong with them when you were young. > (weren't you guys *ever* kids?) Who gives a toss about the force > required to blast the moon out of the Earths orbit? Most sci-fi is > far fetched - it's meant to be. Constructive criticism and > personal opinions yes, but cut out the slagging. Now seriously, if the premise for a story -- any story -- is implausible then it's a bad premise. The usual consequence of this is a bad story as well. "Space: 1999" wasn't intended for children any more than was, say "Star Trek", but it tended to stretch the willing suspension of disbelief a hell of a lot further. This wasn't due to exotic imagination, just a lack of understanding of some fundamentals of SF craftsmanship. You see, I don't read "sci-fi" books or watch "sci-fi" pictures. My interest is SF. I'm not necessarily talking about literature with a heavy message, just well-constructed fiction. I like quality merchandise, and "Space: 1999" never gave me that. Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl ------------------------------ Date: Mon 17 Jun 85 13:50:24-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Space 1999 Although the TV series never really did give a credible explanation for the speed with which they seemed to wander all over the universe, there was an associated book which told a complete story from the moon's blasting out of orbit right through to an eventual return to earth many tens of years later. I can't recall the author but the atmosphere created by the book and the far better scientific accuracy was way above anything the TV series ever managed. I won't spoil the ending though for those who may want to read it. In one episode of the tv series, they did re-establish contact with the earth and Konig (plus a couple of others) are teleported back to earth only to be catapulted somewhere into the middle ages by an earth quake upsetting the teleporting machinery on earth. Needless to say, they wind up back on Alpha just before some celestial body gets between the moon and the earth ending communication for x thousand (?) years. The local ITV region here (Grampian) thought the last series so bad that they opted out of transmitting it and only finally ran it years later in a Saturday morning childrens slot. I was annoyed at their original decision not to show it, but after watching it they were undoubtedly right ! Alan Greig The Computer Centre Dundee College of Technology Dundee Scotland ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it Date: 17 Jun 85 19:45:54 GMT iwm@icdoc.UUCP (Ian Moor) writes: >What about the never-ending supply of security officers on the >Enterprise (the ones at the tail end of the group that got grabbed >zapped or whatever.. and the other one "Smith go back and find out >what happened to Jones" The Enterprise could replace lost personnel anytime it docked at a major star base. Moonbase Alpha had no such outside resources. >Is it true that a ship was reported at a range of 10 'microns' in >Battlestar pathetica ? Probably. The writers on that show tried to make a lot of things sound exotically scientific by tacking the suffix "on" on to them. Spiders became "crawlons", for example. This is somewhat reminiscent of the _old_ Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon serials where everything had "o" appended to it. ("They're using the dissolvo ray!"). The next Hollywood sci-fi disaster will probably start adding "ono" to everything (Creativity? What're you? Some kind of communist? (-: ). It's enough to give you nightmares. The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it Date: 17 Jun 85 03:27:11 GMT > Not that I am defending Space 1949 but .. What about the > never-ending supply of security officers on the Enterprise The Enterprise had starbases with fresh supplies of Redshirts to serve as monster chow. Space 1999 had NO new people coming in, excepting Maya, and no supplies. ------------------------------ From: trwatf!root@topaz.arpa (Lord Frith) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it Date: 17 Jun 85 19:15:09 GMT pete@stc.UUCP (Peter Kendell) writes: >I was a long-term fan of previous Gerry Anderson series like >Supercar, Fireball XL5, Thunderbirds and Stingray and it always >struck me at the time what an achievement it was to make puppets >look and act like humans. Has anyone ever noticed that the puppets in the Captain Scarlet series actually LOOK like the actors that did their voices? The puppet character in Captain Scarlet that Ed Bishop did the voice-over for, has Ed Bishop's face! I LOVE GA PUPPET SHOWS! Lord Frith UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO ------------------------------ From: hcrvax!jims@topaz.arpa (Jim Sullivan) Subject: Re: Sequels, The Lord of the Rings, Random Information Date: 14 Jun 85 13:47:31 GMT > Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that Lord > of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to listen to > anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a nice > story). Actually, TLotR is not a sequel. When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he intended it as a children's story, and its success caught him off-guard. When his publishers asked him for a sequel, he refused, and offered them a couple of other stories, including, I believe, the Silmarillion (I know, I spelled it wrong). But, the publishers wanted something to follow the hobbit, and so...Tolkien started on TLotR. Unfortunately, The Hobbit was not suited for a sequel. The original version had a Bilbo being given the ring by gollum, for winning the riddle game. In order to establish a link between The Hobbit and TLotR, Tolkien had to change later versions of The Hobbit to have Bilbo steal the ring, setting up the 'We Hates Baggins, Forever' sub-plot. It was at this point that Tolkien made the ring, the ONE ring. Before it was just a magical ring. By making it the ONE ring, the bond between The Hobbit and TLotR was firmly established. So, to say the TLotR is a sequel to The Hobbit is not quite true, it depends on how you look at it. Jim Sullivan (I stole the above from an essay I did 8 months ago for an University of Waterloo english course, Forms of Fantasy, Engl 208A i Believe ) ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 17 June 1985, 20:31-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: SFL Party Ah June, when thoughts of SF-Lovers turn to Worldcon. Due to the remoteness of Aussiecon (Melbourne), this year's SFL Party will take place at Lone Star Con (the NaSFiC), though any rich fans going to Australia are welcome to run a party there. We need help in planning the party. If you want to contribute food, transportation to a package store, funds, or (ghu forbid) a room, you want to be on the SFL-PARTY mailing list. To get on this list, send your net address to SFL-PARTY@MIT-MC. You should also be on the list if you are planning to come to the party, so you can find out what day and time the party will be. In your letter, please state any preference for day or time you might have, so we can get a feel for when people want the party to be. James ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 19 Jun 85 1056-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #222 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jun 85 1056-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #222 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 222 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson & Heinlein & Tolkien & Celtic Myths, Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Problems With SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luke!steven@topaz.arpa (Steven List) Subject: Re: Wounded Land series Date: 15 Jun 85 23:50:48 GMT >From: Chris Yoder > How does one express superlatives enough for the Chronicles of >Thomas Covenant? There is so much going on in these books that it >amazes me every time that I reread the series. Everything that >Chris Andersen says about the books I agree with. As creative >fantasy it's a work of art in my own (not so) humble opinion. > > Thomas Covenant is a scuzwad, a jerk, an *sshole, and very, >very real. I agree that he's not so much an anti-hero as a wimp >who refuses to fight. If you don't hate him w/i the first 50 >pages, you haven't been reading. The biggest problem I have with Donaldson's dual trilogy (other than the depressing, frustrating, aggravating nature of the main character) is his use of language. I don't object to being forced to look up an occasional new word or twenty. But GIVE ME A BREAK. Donaldson seems to be incapable of writing two pages without introducing a word that nobody I know has ever heard of! I have discussed his works with several friends over the past few years. Many of us have indeed read them all the way through. And all feel the same way about the words. I haven't yet figured out why I read all six. I do know why I bought all three of the second trilogy: I bought an autographed edition of the first and wanted to complete the set. Reading them was more along the lines of fulfilling a commitment than pleasure. I just had to do it and get it over with. The odds are great that I will never buy another book by Donaldson again. Steven List @ Benetics Corporation (415) 940-6300 {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!steven ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 16:02:12 CST From: Doug Monk Subject: JOB : ACOJ Having just finished my SFBC copy of _Job_:_a_Comedy_of_Justice_ by Heinlein, I thought I might point out something interesting I noted. As I was reading along, I noticed that the phrase "stranger in a strange land" appeared in a paragraph. It was used correctly in context but also happens to be the title of another of RAH's books. I was amused. Much later that same day, it happened again : I found "time enough for love" so skillfully entwined in character and context that I was laughing with delight for a good two minutes. Not having had time to reread the book yet with great care, I find myself wondering how many other times this happens in the book, and with which titles ? ( I have intentionally left out the page numbers of the two I found in case others want to discover them for themselves. Send mail to me if you want the references. Send mail to me and/or the net if you find more ). Doug Monk ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Sequels Date: 18 Jun 85 09:34:14 GMT >> Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that >> Lord of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to >> listen to anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a >> nice story). > >"The Lord of the Rings" isn't a sequel to "The Hobbit." Not >really, anyway. Kind of like chapter two isn't really a sequel to >chapter one, nor is chapter one really a sequel to the preface. Go >back and re-read your Tolkien, if you do not understand. Have you ever read Tolkien's Biography. It says there that Tolkien wrote LOTR on the request of the publisher who wanted more stories about hobbits. Tolkien never intended LOTR to be the premiere work on Middle-Earth. That honor was to go to The Silmarillian. Chris Andersen ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jun 85 10:35:05 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: "The Black Cauldron" and Celtic myth retellings Everybody point at Peter Trei and say "Booo!" Peter, OF COURSE Disney's "The Black Cauldron" is based on the Lloyd Alexander works. It's been stated plainly, in SF-LOVERS and elsewhere. What's worse, though, is that you don't seem to know that Alexander's works are, in turn, based on "The Mabinogion" itself. In fact, "The Black Cauldron" (film or book) uses "Branwen Daughter of Llyr" as its original source. As far as "late 20th century ethics and mores being espoused by Dark Age men and women" goes, I really don't see the problem. Does reading "The Mabinogion" put your teeth on edge, too? After all, it has Christian ethics and mores being espoused by pre-Christian men and women. Storytellers always include motivations with which their audiences can identify - it's a tradition - might even say an oral tradition :-). Just because Marion Zimmer Bradley is so heavy-handed about it is no reason to fault the approach. Loosen up. This is fiction, not history, we're talking about. Why bother reading a retelling if not to get a modern interpretation? May I assume that you don't like Evangeline Walton? If so, too bad. Someone as interested in Celtic mythology as you seem to be from your posting should read Lloyd Alexander's books, but if modern motivations (and other "glosses", if you must) bother you, I can only sigh and shake my head. How about Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" series? Modern applications of Celtic/Arthurian myth; at least here the action is set in the 20th century, so there should be no problem with anachronistic ethics. Oh, what the Annwn, toss in Madeleine L'Engle's "A Swiftly Tilting Planet", too. Only tangential to Celtic myth, and not as good as her "A Wrinkle in Time", but... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 13:01:39 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: SPACE 1999 and infinite eagles Ian Moor (icdoc!iwm@topaz.arpa) writes: > Not that I am defending Space 1949 but ... What about the > never-ending supply of security officers on the Enterprise (the > ones at the tail end of the group that got grabbed zapped or > whatever.. Situations were a little different. Viewers could easily assume that between Star Trek episodes the Enterprise would stop off at Star Fleet Headquarters and pick up replacement personnel for all the security officers that got killed off. They could also get things repaired that way. Space 1999 had nothing similar. They were essentially marooned in space. What're they gonna do, stop off at Uncle Xkgrmoqphdal's trading post and exchange good looks for new eagles? ST had tons of resources at its disposal. The people of Moonbase Alpha only had what they started with and whatever they could scavenge along the way. Personally, I think that the first season of Space 1999 wasn't bad. I would certainly go out of my way to see those episodes again. They were strange enough to be thought provoking, something that is lacking in most TV today. The second season wasn't nearly as good. They lost their best actor; they exchanged good sets for mediocre ones; they added the shapechanger, which got them out of every situation; and they toned down the scripts---the series lost its ability to force me to think for myself. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ From: cstvax!bobg@topaz.arpa (Bob Gray ERCC) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it (slight SPOILER) Date: 22 Jun 85 06:36:15 GMT thornton@westo.UUCP (znac468) writes: >I assumed a terminal velocity of 0.1c ,mainly because if the moon >went faster than 0.15c then an Eagle would never catch it. Spoiler warning.... There is a book (by E.C. TUBB, I think his name was, I can't remember the title) Which tells a story made up of two episodes from the series and a story claimed to be a possible "Final episode". This was writen after the series had ended and explains what actually happened in the explosion. >it was propelled into a 'time warp' and emerged in an area of space >where the stars were packed much more tightly together (!). As I remember the moon was squeezed by the explosion and forced into a strange fourth-dimensional orbit. This is how it got out of the solar system so fast. The moon eventually ends up back in it's original (present) orbit with a convenient explanation for all the large number of planets they encountered. A bit far-fetched but not as silly as the shape changing alien. ( I liked the first series best too). Anyone out there read the book and/or remember it's title? Bob Gray. ERCC. ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VI Date: 14 Jun 85 17:45:21 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY PART VI: The Short Story Mentality by Davis Tucker It's a safe bet to say that for many people, one of the most delightful things about reading science fiction is the wealth of short stories and various other works of less than novel length. It's also a safe bet that no other form of literature (to be dignified about it) has such an exhaustive taxonomy of forms - from novelette to novella to novel to short story to short-short story to tetralogy and on and on. And what the difference is between a novelette and a novella nobody knows, and I suspect nobody cares. But what is often apparent in the field of science fiction is that the short story form has been used beyond its capabilities and its limitations, and that there are many novels that in structure and content are little more than expensive (and often long-winded) short stories. Because of their length or lack of it, short stories by necessity must cast off some of the requisite characteristics of novels - extensive description, multiple plot lines, detailed characterization, character development, coherent structure, in-depth symbolism, etc. It is perhaps more correct to say that these novel characteristics are *allowed* to be cast off or cut short in the interests of space - there are some short stories which can accomplish most of these things, although character development usually takes more than 10,000 words. What we usually expect out of a short story is a few well-developed characters (sometimes only one), a strong plot that doesn't contain too many convolutions, and sufficient character motivation to make it all believable. Logical consistency and imaginative sweep are also necessary for science fiction short stories. Mood and environment must be sketched, and well-done enough so that the reader can at least smell the steak without tasting it, as he or she would reading a novel. To make a lame comparison with art, a novel is a painting - say Rembrandt's "Night Watch". A short story is a pencil sketch, a goache, a line drawing like Picasso's "Femme" (which, since it consists of 3 line elements, is probably equivalent to a short-short). One is not inherently "better" than the other, nor any more or less "art". They are different forms, and while a painting usually requires more time and effort than a quick sketch, that is no indication of quality or genius. But sketches conform to different rules and accomplish the aims of art in different ways than paintings. Or to turn to the stage, we accept that Albee's one-act plays such as "Zoo Story" are fundamentally different in sweep and scope and structure than Shakespeare, and it is as fundamentally incorrect to make a 4-hour one-act play (with all of the characteristics of one-act plays) as it is to make a 30-minute five-act play. If the constraints of time and space which differentiate the genres of various art forms were not important, this would not be the case. It is how well a practitioner of an art or a craft deals within these restraints that is at issue. In science fiction we often find novels which, when shorn of fat and fluff, turn out to be short stories. One idea may make an acceptable short story, but it rarely suffices for a novel. Sometimes these novels in short's clothing are disguised by episodic plot lines (the "continuous cliffhanger" so beloved by space opera) or verbose description or various other red herrings. One favorite red herring is the Totally Unnecessary Subplot, which we all know well - that feeling you get of "why in the world is this *in* here?" In general, many science fiction writers indulge in lengthening out short stories - just think of the number of times that a popular short story has been reworked into a novel, and how it was done. Usually not well, and rarely if ever does it have anything more to offer than its original version. And even when this isn't the case, many science fiction novels have that incompleteness, that sketchiness, that singularity that characterizes short stories. Characters are usually drawn out well, but their personal development through the novel is often skimpy. In the course of one hundred thousand words, people should change and grow and be impacted by their plot. I won't even go into the sorry state of affairs as regards female characters, except to say that someday, someday by God, male science fiction writers are going to find out that World War II and the Sixties and the Sexual Revolution and the Women's Movement really *did* happen and they really *do* have relevancy to today's readers. I mean, a lot of these novels don't even have a single female character of *any* kind in them. And then of course, there is the deus ex machina. That beloved ending of science fiction, more used than anything. In mainstream fiction, it's tough to get away with that kind of ending (we don't believe in gods falling out of the sky anymore... sigh). Where the writer paints himself into the proverbial corner and voila! Here comes the zygomatic thundercruncher's unknown power in all its awesome majesty, which of course the villain didn't know anything about, since we all know that a villain couldn't see a deus ex machina if it came up and bit him, even when it's been telegraphed in screaming semaphore for fifty pages. It's either that, or write a sequel. Unfortunately Dudley Doright and Snidely Whiplash belong on TV, not in print. It's a cheap ending, and no matter how good a book is, if it doesn't have a correct ending, it's no good. Important characters being raised from the dead and all sorts of magical powers being unleashed from out of nowhere at precisely the right instant (the last ten pages) don't strain credibility, they give it a multiple hernia. In a short story, these kind of endings can be acceptable, sometimes even well-done. Many people like the "surprise ending" feel to a deus ex machina. But it has no place in a novel - the writer has enough time to build up to a suitable ending that fits within the framework of the rest of the book, and there's no reason why he has to cheat when he's got 200 or 500 pages with which to work. It's amazing that with all the freedom afforded science fiction that this hackneyed ending that's about 2500 years old is so over used. Short story methods are specific to short stories, in the sense that they do not violate some basic rules. Novel methods are specific to novels. It is difficult to imagine "Moby Dick" in 20,000 words (though many English 101 students may dream of this), and it's hilarious to picture "The Ransom Of Red Chief" weighing in at 1,000 pages. But they're both good for what they are, and they both use their respective modes of operation correctly, and they both succeed. It would be nice to see more science fiction authors of novels recognize this, and stop trying to stretch a 20-page story into 200, please. It's an affront to both the short story that could have been and the novel that is. Well, that's just one man's opinion. Tune in next week to "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VII: Thematic Drought". ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jun 85 1115-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #223 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 19 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 223 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Herbert & Wells & Alternate History Bibliography & Return to Oz & Carcinoma angels, Films - Rocky Horror, Television - Banned Shows (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - The Purpose of Fiction & Literary Sterility ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anwar!rob@topaz.arpa (Robert R Stegmann) Subject: Berserker and Terminator Date: 18 Jun 85 18:57:39 GMT It seems to me that a concept central to TERMINATOR was that of a robot assassin capable of passing for a human. In addition, the robot and human antagonists pursued each other using time travel. Both of these ideas have been employed together in Fred Saberhagen's Berserker stories, which I believe antedate TERMINATOR. I am unsure as to whether they antedate Ellison's work. Has Ellison ripped off Saberhagen or vice versa? Have the people responsible for TERMINATOR ripped off Saberhagen? The scene in TERMINATOR showing a flashback to the future in which a terminator robot infiltrates a human enclave and begins to shoot up the place very strongly brought to mind the Berserker stories. To my mind, the only plausible justification for Ellison's victory is the evidence that the story was plagiarized from scripts he submitted and which were rejected. rob {allegra,ihnp4,decvax}!philabs!hhb!rob ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: Series and sequels in SF and Fantasy Date: 18 Jun 85 03:17:41 GMT marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >One series, however, seems to have gone beyond the limits of good >taste. I am a lover of Herbert's Dune since I first read it. The >concept lost its flavor with the second of the books, and I >mercilessly forced myself to read God Emperor. I'm not going to >bother with any more Dune books. Frank Herbert has some fine and >interesting publications that are totally unrelated to the series. >I suggest White Plague as an interesting alternative. I would suggest any other books by Frank Herbert except the 'Dune' series. I find his other works so much in contrast to 'Dune' & Co. that it amazed me it was the same author. In particular, I recommend the Con-Sentiency stories, about BuSab, the Bureau of Sabotage.('The Tactful Saboteur' - short,from 'The Worlds of Frank Herbert', 'Whipping Star' - novel, and 'The Dosadi Experiment' also a novel.) Of these, The Dosadi Experiment is the best, and I put it as one of my top ten books ever. Frank writes good stuff. R. Ramsay ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: SCIENCE FICTION OF H. G. WELLS Date: 18 Jun 85 16:07:54 GMT H. G. Wells and Frank McConnell's THE SCIENCE FICTION OF H. G. WELLS Oxford University Press, 1981 A book review by Mark R. Leeper One of my earliest memories was going to see the film WAR OF THE WORLDS. I was not yet three years old and my parents, who usually hate science fiction, for some reason went to see it. I hated it. And we sat through it twice. By the time I was six, I would have sold both my parents into slavery to see the film again. I was bitten by science fiction early and hard. And the paragon of science fiction writers had to be H. G. Wells, I thought. Finding in the library the Dover book SEVEN SCIENCE FICTION NOVELS BY H. G. WELLS was a high point of my youth. I remember how I originally acquired each of the fives "Classics Illustrated" comic books based on his science fiction books. When I was growing up, Wells was "Mr. Science Fiction" for me. Of course, now I am somewhat more widely read and can put Wells into a perspective. In perspective, Wells is merely the best and most creative science fiction writer who ever lived. There are very few current types of science fiction story that Wells did not write and the majority of those he invented. Time travel, alien invasion, post-holocaust, space travel--they all descended from stories and novels by Wells. His shorter stories include the invention of the modern tank and the "atomic bomb" (Wells coined the phrase "atomic bomb" in 1914 and gave a surprisingly accurate appraisal of its use in war, particularly considering that he was writing about it thirty years before its development). Another early story describes a London described by terrorists with biological warfare. Most SF authors predicting the future only extrapolate the present without breakthroughs. Some actually put in breakthroughs but are way off base about what the breakthroughs will be. Wells predicted a surprising number of the real breakthroughs. That brings me to THE SCIENCE FICTION OF H. G. WELLS by Frank McConnell. McConnell is an Associate Professor of English at Northwestern, and he approaches Wells as an Associate Professor of English rather than as a science fiction fan. None of the pleasure of reading Wells comes across. He does mention, dryly and in passing, that certain novels were written during the period when Wells was "a great storyteller," and McConnell speculates that after that period Wells decided that he no longer wanted to be a great storyteller, but he never talks about what made a Wells story great. Instead of that, he gives us dry-as-dust speculations of how Wells may have been influenced by Darwin's theories and goes into long digressions about the history of Social Darwinism. In fact, much of the matter of McConnell's book reminds me of my own writing when I was in high school and wanted to make a small idea fill an assigned number of pages. He says things like INVISIBLE MAN presaged politics of the 20th Century in that Griffin is a terrorist who is damaged by his own tactics. Even assuming the point is true about terrorism, which it probably isn't, it is not an idea that is particularly worth considering. Wells knew nothing about 20th Century terrorists when he wrote the book, and McConnell's whole point is contrived. Also, McConnell talks about the way the giants' nursery in FOOD OF THE GODS had brightly colored tiles the children could re-arrange. "The child psychology of Jean Piaget and the inspired practice of the Montessori schools... have both borne out the wisdom of Wells's ideas about the early training of children in creative play." Time and again, McConnell seems to be missing the essential points of the Wells story, but he will waste a half-page on what a good way these giant children were raised. Earlier in his biographical chapter, he digresses to explain the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and Godel's Proof. He botches both but goes on for pages on their implications. (Actually, he is not alone in this. It is amazing how many people can correctly state neither the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle nor the meaning of Godel's proof, but can wax eloquent on their philosophical implications--implications that are not borne out by Heisenberg or Godel at all. ) McConnell says that Godel was saying "mathematics had the structure not of a 'real' world but of an elegant fiction." To me that shows a complete mis-understanding of the implications of Godel's proof, yet he fills pages explaining it to his reader. In another place McConnell does a metric analysis of the sentences in a paragraph of INVISIBLE MAN. I could go on and on with a list of how what he says may vaguely concern Wells, but how he totally misses essential points. McConnell's only really interesting sections about Wells are facts he gleaned from a biography of the author. To all appearances, that is the book I should have read. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Alternate History Bibliography Date: 18 Jun 85 17:59:21 GMT In response to several requests: The article on alternate histories I mentioned was "What If Hitler Got the Bomb?: World War Two in Alternate History SF Stories" by Mark M. Keeler. He didn't include the entire bibliography, just those relating to WWII. For further information, you can probably contact him through NESFA: Mark M. Keller c/o NESFA Box G, MIT Branch Station Cambridge, MA 02139 And, no, I won't type in the WWII list--but maybe we can convince him to publish the whole thing in a book! Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Tue 18 Jun 85 19:08:41-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Aux armes, Citoyens! Lovers of SF Yesterday in a bookstore I picked up a book Return to Oz a novel by Joan D Vinge based on a movie from Disney studios. Now the world knows that the marvelous Oz books were written by L Frank Baum, may his name be honoured for ever. This variant either dropped out of a parallel universe or is a condensation of a couple of those books, especially The Land of Oz (Copyright MCMIV by L Frank Baum. All Rights Reserved). An author lives in his books. To deprive an author, however long out of copyright, of the acknowledgement that is his due is a foul crime. I expect nothing better of 'Disney Studios', but Vinge is an author with works of her own, who surely has no cause to do such a thing. Friends, was this deed truly done with her knowledge and consent? Is there any mitigating fact I'm unaware of? Meanwhile, let all who care about courtesy (at least) to authors living and dead BOYCOTT THIS BOOK. May those who have perpetrated this injustice be hated and despised by all intellectual beings, both men and angels, throughout eternity! Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 22:53:59 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels From Doug Alan: > For some reason the title "Carcinoma Angel" has been floating > around in my head ... I'm sure it's the title for an SF story I > read ... It is indeed! It's the last story in "Dangerous Visions" (*edited* by Harlan Ellison, and one of the best SF anthologies ever, for those who haven't read it...). The story itself is by Norman Spinrad, and is about a man, successful at all endeavours, who contracts cancer and decides to cure it by force of will, through decidedly unorthodox means. The "Carcinoma Angels" are manifestations of his cancer cells as motorcycle-gang members (I *said* his means were unorthodox!). Read the story. Hell, read the whole book! And then read "Again, Dangerous Visions", too! (When will "The Last ..." be out? I heard it would be soon.) --Peter Alfke [jpa144@cit-vax] (PS: I'm soon to be alfke.pasa@xerox) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 19 Jun 1985 08:05:28-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: RHPS, Magenta, and UK video tapes Magenta a dud?????? COME ON NOW!!!!! Give me a break, will you?! and I suppose that Dr. Scott had nothing to do with the plot what-so-ever? and Rocky was only there to show off his muscles? BTW, I was under the impression that the UK videos cannot be played on US machines. That means you would need to buy a UK machine to copy the UK video to US tape. If someone in UK has a US machine, I would be glad to send them a tape to get a copy. Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 16:22:19 CST From: Doug Monk Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. > Have any episodes of DR WHO,UFO or 1999 been banned in the U.S.? >I know that certain Star Trek episodes were banned in Texas & four >were banned in Britain, the reason being violence. Its news to me. I've seen all the episodes many times and have lived in Houston, Texas all my life. Who claims to have "banned" them ? One of those self-righteous little buttinski groups who know more than us about what is good for us ? If so, I never even heard about it so they couldn't have had much impact. If it was a group trying to protect children from excessive violence, I must point out to that group that Star Trek was never intended for children but adults. > The reasons given for the banning in Texas indicate that some of >the British shows may run in to similar problems. Notably THE >PYRAMIDS OF MARS story from DR WHO dealing with Egyptian Gods & THE >TROUBLESOME SPIRIT & LAMBDA FACTOR episodes of 1999 dealing with >ghosts and strange powers. Has this happened? No problems that I know of. I've seen PYRAMIDS OF MARS twice ( unless I'm confusing it with another story about Egyptian Gods ) and watched part of TROUBLESOME SPIRIT. ( Didn't finish it or watch LAMBDA FACTOR 'cause I never cared much for 1999. ) As with ST, I never heard of any attempts at banning these episodes. The TV stations showing them have in general been applauded for filling the vast SF void on the tube. As for banning in general, the only thing I can recall lately has been some annual national Parent-Teacher Association event in which they deplore the violence inherent in much TV programming and cite certain programs for special problems. Not really "banning", but censuring the producers of such shows, not censoring the shows themselves. Doug Monk ------------------------------ From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Re: Banned episodes Date: 18 Jun 85 21:06:20 GMT > Have any episodes of DR WHO,UFO or 1999 been banned in the U.S.? > I know that certain Star Trek episodes were banned in Texas & four > were banned in Britain, the reason being violence. The original CBS late-night showing of UFO omitted the episode Timelash, because Commander Straker and Col. Lake were shown injecting themselves with stimulents to fight the aliens who had slowed time over the studio and stopped everyone else in SHADO headquarters. This was a network decision, the episode was shown later in syndication to local stations. (Source: article on UFO in Starlog #5) Mary Anne Espenshade ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jun 85 11:56:00 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: the purpose of fiction >I think that the one and only, sole reason for fiction's existence >is to bring about that immersion in the shared dream. I disagree strongly with this statement. I enjoy novels which work on many other levels, and I hope others do, too. Mr. Martin spoke of a concensus among many of the viewpoints appearing in this forum. I wonder if the other participants accept this characterization as part of that consensus? I will not respond in detail to the remainder of Mr. Martin's response, but will simply say that I do not agree with him on most points he raised. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa soon to be reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jun 85 10:09:26 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: literary sterility Bill Ingogly writes >Sorry, Charlie's definition of literary sterility is close to the >standard one. From Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College >Edition: > ... 3. lacking in interest or vitality; not stimulating or > effective [a sterile style] ... Only if you accept his premise that the only way in which a work of fiction can be interesting, vital, stimulating, or effective is if it wraps its reader up in its own world, a premise I do not accept. Do you? Peter Reiher ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jun 85 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #224 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 20 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 224 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson & Palmer & Zelazny & Carcinoma Angels (2 msgs), Films - Rocky Horror, Television - Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - 20th Century Men in Stories & Telling the Plot (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: decuac!avolio@topaz.arpa (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant Date: 19 Jun 85 16:36:53 GMT I mentioned this in a posting a number of months ago. Yes, do read all 6 Thomas Covenant books! By the end of the first book (and maybe still later) you might find that you really dislike Thomas Covenant. He is a pain to be around! But hang in there and read the second book. You'll get hooked. I could read Donaldson's words forever. Yes, he is verbose. But I really think his writing is quite lovely and worth the wading. The characters are unique and wonderful and very different from the standard sword and sorcery fantasies (which I also like, by the way). I have read critiques stating that the second trilogy wasn't as good as the first, it was too long, etc. All I know is that after I finished each book I could not wait to get my hands on the next. And, unlike some series, the final book does leave you satisfied. The books, by the way, are: LORD FOUL'S BANE, THE ILLEARTH WAR, THE POWER THAT PRESERVES, THE WOUNDED LAND, THE ONE TREE, and WHITE GOLD WIELDER. -Fred ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: EMERGENCE by David Palmer Date: 19 Jun 85 22:49:23 GMT EMERGENCE by David Palmer Bantam, 1984 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This book suffers from the "levitation method" of writing--whatever corner you write your character into, he or she will turn out to have just the right abilities to get out of it. (If the situation is bad enough, the character will turn out to be able to levitate over the obstacle.) Well, Palmer does make some attempt to rationalize his main character's set of abilities. He fails. While I kept reading and was indeed interested in finding out what was going to happen next, the moment I began to think, even a little, about the situations that Palmer was setting up and Candy's ability to get out of them, I realized what a patently absurd book it is. Candy is a superman (superwoman?)--really. The product of some sort of genetic mutation caused by the 1918 influenza epidemic, she can do everything, even at the tender age of eleven. She is an expert at karate, can perform basic surgery, can learn to fly an airplane by herself, etc., etc. R-i-g-h-t! The rest of the characters are not much better (in some cases, they're worse). Portions of the novel were previously published as short stories. It shows--the second section repeats a lot of information already given in the first, as if Palmer couldn't be bothered to do any re-writing on the parts that had already been published. And on top of everything, the book doesn't end neatly, but leaves some loose ends just perfect for--you guessed it--a sequel! I can't recommend this book. While it was passable enough while I was reading it, it left me ultimately unsatisfied. If this is all it takes to be a Hugo nominee, it must have been a very weak year last year. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Zelazny Date: 20 Jun 85 00:08:13 GMT I have had the fortune of rooming with an avid reader of sf & fantasy. Having read all of zelazny's works he steered me away from the bad ones. I quote, "when zelazny writes something good, it's great, but when it's bad, it is really bad." > Oh my LORD Doorways was very light... > -- Joe Kalash What do you mean by light? While I don't expect anybody to merely accept my friend's review as this being his favorite sf by zelazny- it's light but fast moving, interesting- really, really smooth. even though i'm really only a fantasy reader i got into it (a little). > Amber was "awfully light and puffy and beneath him > -- reg Are you all right?! Amber was mind shattering. When I heard he'd contracted to write another group I nearly went into shock because he really warps your senses. I took off a day and a half at the end of the series. It's impossible to put down! In fact, how can you complain about the series that reaches out and physically grabs you from the first paragraph? The character knows as little as the reader so you can get into it right away without having to waste time with background etc. I highly recommend this series and call for all fans to flame the above review. "light and fluffy", indeed! Jack of Shadows is definitely included in his masterpieces. A new edition paperback has been re-released within the last few months. I would welcome discussion regarding Dilvish, one of my favorites. I'm disappointed that the best he wrote was for Lin Carter's flashing swords series. I hope to write him and tell him that his novel's ending was a cop out and that we want a lot more. Of course, this is really for fantasy fans. Moshe Eliovson mte @ busch ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson) Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angels Date: 18 Jun 85 02:33:16 GMT "Carcinoma Angels", by Norman Spinrad, was first published in the original "Dangerous Visions" anthology edited by Harlan Ellison. DV, c 1967, and Judith Merril's anthology "England Swings SF", c 1968, define the "new wave" in sf, later known as "speculative fiction". Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp ------------------------------ From: ukc!scifi@topaz.arpa (I.P.Gordon) Subject: Re: Carcinoma Angel Date: 20 Jun 85 12:00:48 GMT One usage of the name 'Carcinoma Angel(s)' that I have come across is for a very silly game on computers. You have parachuted down onto Carcinoma Island which is square, about 15x15, having a number of infinitely deep potholes, down which it is fatal to fall, and a number of Carcinoma Angels, who keep walking towards you. If a C.A. touches you, you die. The idea is to lure them all down the potholes. I.Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Wed 19 Jun 85 23:57:54-PDT From: Mark Crispin Subject: RHPS videotape Great Britain uses the PAL television standard, which is not compatible with the USA's NTSC standard. NTSC (a.k.a. "Never Twice Same Color" due to its color instability) is the oldest by many years; the Europeans had a chance to learn from our mistakes. The French invented something called SECAM, and the West Germans invented PAL. PAL is the most widely used standard in the world, and is considered by many to be the best. There is no compatibility between NTSC and PAL. PAL has greater resolution and shows 50 half-frames/second, while NTSC shows 60 half- frames/second. Also, PAL videotapes operate at different speeds. A company named Instant Replay in Florida modifies NTSC VHS format (ugh!) VCR's to have a "PAL" switch which if set runs the tape at PAL speed and kludges up the video signal so it will play on an NTSC TV or monitor. The signal is not as good as a vanilla PAL or NTSC signal, nor can it be copied to another VCR, but the results are still viewable. So if you're really desperate for a videotape of RHPS and can't wait the years(!) that CBS/Fox says it will be before an American release, you can get a British tape and an Instant Replay VCR (currently around $800) and do the Time-Warp again. Mark ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 19 Jun 85 11:11:28 GMT Strange as it seems, there were very few bug eyed monsters in the first season. The only non humanoid alien was the 'spider' from DRAGONS DOMAIN. It was the dreaded second season which had the bug eyed monsters. One monster (from BETA CLOUD, SPACE WARP & MATTER OF BALANCE) was used a lot with different hair lengths so as you wouldn't notice. If you had opted to see the few episodes where bug eyed monsters were used you would get this impression. This seems to have more to do with the arrival of Freddie Frieberger than the character of the show. One good bug eyed monster can be forgiven. Maya provided the potential to produce hundreds. Maya's shape changeing ability is not original. Captain Garth, from STAR TREK's WHOM GODS DESTROY had a similar ability limited to humanoid forms. He could change into an alien (SPOCK) and must have physically changed to assume the voice. Here the ability was called 'CELLULAR REMETAMORPHOSIS'. If one show can get away with that, why did Maya come in for so much stick? Does anyone out there look out for little continuity errors? I spotted several in 1999. Koenig's space suit collar in BREAKAWAY changes from smooth to ringed before he crashes over beacon Delta for instance, and Carter's visor falls open in SPACE WARP! Andy T. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 14 Jun 85 22:37:36-EDT From: Glen Daniels Subject: Re: Twentieth Century Men... Lindsay%Tartan.Arpa writes: >Why, do you suppose, did it become standard to somehow transport a >man of our times into the plot? Burroughs got John Carter to Mars >somewhere in the first few pages. Stephen Donaldson did more or >less the same. In fact, this has been recycled by everyone from >Lin Carter ("The Green Star",etc.) to Brian Daley ("The >Starfollowers of Coramonde",1979). Not to mention one of A.E.Van >Vogt's stronger works, "The Book of Ptath" (1943). I could be wrong, but there seems to me to be a fairly simple answer to this valid query. The reason that so many authors now and in the past have used the man-of-the- present device is so that it will be easier for the reader to identify with him/her. Take Donaldson's _Lord_Foul's_Bane_ (of which I am also an avid fan, having read the whole series at least seven times...). It is a lot easier for us to relate to the world Covenant comes from, because it is ours. We see the common everyday experiences of the twentieth cetury world. This lets us be drawn further into the book than if Covenant lived, say, in the year 3000 or so... We don't KNOW what society will be like then, so we can't fully allow the perception of "Gee...that's really cruel...but come to think of it, there really ARE those things out there..." in that world. Also, when the twentieth-century person uses any kind of idiomatic expression, we can generally understand it a lot better than the far-future- types (take the Buck Rogers TV series as an example). Since the protagonist DOES come from our time, we also get the feeling that "ge, this could really happen" a lot more intensely (or rather, more PERSONALLY) than if he/she came from a completely different society. (There's more, but I haven't thought of it yet...) Glen Daniels (ARPA:GDaniels%OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA) (CHAOS:GDaniels@MIT-OZ) ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 18 Jun 1985 08:58:31-PDT From: moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN From: 381-2102) Subject: The concept of spoilers >> "It's difficult to tell the plot without ruining (at least >> partially) the book," wrote Leeper about a new ALICE pastiche. > >Well, let me re-phrase myself--if I tell you the plot, I will ruin >the enjoyment you'll get from watching it unfold yourself. >Watching the "Alice" chess game develop is more fun than having >someone explain it all to you first, at least for me. (And, by the other Leeper): >Sure, a second reading can be more fun than the first, so what? >Does that make it justified for the reviewer diminishing the >pleasure on the first reading? The second reading is more >pleasurable not because the reader knows the plot in advance, >usually, but because the reader sees more in the story. To me, knowing every line of a book, every plot twist, knowing who lives, who dies, which people manage to get together (if anyone manages to), is the only way that I can enjoy it. Otherwise the nervous tension of simply *NOT KNOWING* what is going to happen seriously detracts from any pleasure that I might have gotten out of it. I agree with the above comment about why the second reading is more enjoyable than the first, but would say that the reason I see more in the story is because the plot cannot surprise me. I don't understand the point about watching the chess game develop the first time being more enjoyable than having someone explain it to you first. In fiction you never know if the next paragraph will not have the aliens landing and blowing away every character you know about so far. I grant you that this is unlikely in the Alice stories, but it is very likely in other books, and the tension of watching (waiting) for that almost ruins my enjoyment of any book the first time through. For example, I just finished "To Reign In Hell". Excellent job, SKZB. But the instant that I finished the last page, I flipped back and started with the first page, to re-read the entire book so I could *ENJOY* it this time. I do this with almost every book I read (except the ones that I didn't like for other reasons (such as boredom)). All of this applies equally to movies/plays/television/short stories/etc. Obviously not everyone agrees with this, otherwise there would not be the plethora of *** SPOILER *** warnings. Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel the way you do? Thanks. Ken Moreau ------------------------------ Date: Tue 18 Jun 85 13:06:50-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Re: Telling the Plot > From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) > May I point out that ALL of us know the plot of Alice in > Wonderland but I doubt if we think that ruins the book. Do you > people REALLY think that rereading a book can never possibly be as > much fun as reading it the first time, because the book is -- > horrors! -- "at least partially ruined"? .... Ah well, the same > stupid attitude manifests itself in the popular use of the term > "spoiler." *Grumph* again. There was a recent poll among net.puzzle and (amazingly enough) most people thought that solutions to puzzles should be marked with the term "SPOILER", presumably under the impression that knowing the answer somehow spoils the puzzle! A good story needs to unfold and there's a certain magic in that. Rarely will you get as much out of a book by reading all the sentences backwards or starting in the middle (with the notable exception of /Finnegan's Wake/). When I read a book a second time, I don't expect the same magic, but rather I'm looking for the subtleties I may have missed the first time. There is nothing quite like being halfway through a mystery and having someone say "Oh yes, isn't that the one where the pregnant ballerina is the murderer?" Ah, it is so nice to get back to serious discussions after the recent froth about "The Problems with SF Today." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Jun 85 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #225 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 20 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 225 Today's Topics: Books - Franklin & Rand & Tolkien & Request for Myth Books & Title Search, Films - Rocky Horror, Miscellaneous - The Problems With SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: COUNTDOWN TO MIDNIGHT edited by Franklin Date: 19 Jun 85 22:50:16 GMT COUNTDOWN TO MIDNIGHT edited by H. Bruce Franklin DAW, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper You can tell this is edited by an academic--many of the stories are interesting from an academic viewpoint, but boring to the average reader. How can stories about nuclear warfare be boring? Well, here's how... "To Still the Drums" by Chandler Davis is acceptable, but the war he talks about could be any war; it doesn't have to be atomic. "Thunder and Roses" by Theodore Sturgeon is probably the best of the bunch (well, after all, it is STURGEON). "Lot" by Ward Moore is of interest only as the basis of PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO; the ideas in it have become trite from over use since its writing. It may very well have been then--how many times have you read the "survivalist" story in which there is one character (always female) who is busy packing her make-up and nylons in her survival kit? "That Only a Mother" by Judith Merril has nothing to do with nuclear war (though one supposedly forms the background of the story). "I Kill Myself" by Julian Kawalec is "literate" but not very engrossing. "The Neutrino Bomb" by Ralph S. Cooper is cute, but trivial. "Akua Nuten (The South Wind)" by Yves Theriault is told from an interesting perspective, but too shallow. "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" by Harlan Ellison didn't appeal to me when I read it fourteen years ago, and I didn't bother to re-read it here. "Countdown" by Kate Wilhelm attempts to touch an emotional chord, but doesn't quite succeed. "The Big Flash" by Norman Spinrad is too punkish for my tastes. "Everything But Love" by Mikhail Yemstev and Eremei Parnov was unreadable; I tried, but couldn't force my way through it. "To Howard Hughes: A Modest Proposal" by Joe Haldeman showed the most imagination, but was ultimately unconvincing. Perhaps the problem is that the scope of nuclear war does not lend itself to being reduced to a short story. Certainly many of these stories, written before nuclear winter was discovered, no longer ring true as depictions of a nuclear war. They are interesting from an historical perspective, perhaps, but do not expect engrossing, convincing portrayals of a modern nuclear war. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand Date: 19 Jun 85 22:50:41 GMT ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand Signet, 1957 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper In spite of its over a thousand pages, I can't find much to say about this book. The premise is that the technical and managerial geniuses, who have been all that has stood between the masses and ruin, have decided (with the encouragement of one John Galt) no longer to let their talents and abilities be comandeered by those less able than themselves, but instead to drop out of society and form their own society based on their desires. (I bet you hadn't realized that Ayn Rand invented the hippie!) Of course, things quickly go to hell in a handbasket because of this, starting with the collapse of the railroads, which Rand sees as the foundation of American society, trade, and culture. The result is predictable to any one who has read any Rand before (though I refuse to believe that even as there are food and fuel shortages because of collapsing (in some cases literally) railroads, a post card can get from Colorado to New York in four days. It can't do that now!). Rand's obvious happiness in killing off all the "worthless" characters in this book (which includes over 90% of the general public) makes it somewhat difficult for most people to buy into the good points that she is making. While her methods of making her points are not the most subtle in the world, Rand's questions of ability and the responsibility of an individual to "donate" his or her ability to the general good because others have decided so is well worth considering. Unfortunately, eleven hundred pages is more considering that you may want to do. The best way to read this book is to skip all the long speeches (particularly in the second half) and read it as a science fiction "end of the world" story. Then do your philosophizing on your own. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jun 85 09:34 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: sequels >> Saying sequels are automatically bad is silly...remember that >> Lord of the Rings is a sequel to the Hobbit (and I refuse to >> listen to anyone who says the Hobbit is superior, much as it's a >> nice story). > >Actually, TLotR is not a sequel. When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he >intended it as a children's story, and its success caught him >off-guard. When his publishers asked him for a sequel, he refused, >and offered them a couple of other stories, including, I believe, >the Silmarillion (I know, I spelled it wrong). But, the publishers >wanted something to follow the hobbit, and so...Tolkien started on >TLotR. > >Unfortunately, The Hobbit was not suited for a sequel. The >original version had a Bilbo being given the ring by gollum, for >winning the riddle game. In order to establish a link between The >Hobbit and TLotR, Tolkien had to change later versions of The >Hobbit to have Bilbo steal the ring, setting up the 'We Hates >Baggins, Forever' sub-plot. It was at this point that Tolkien made >the ring, the ONE ring. Before it was just a magical ring. By >making it the ONE ring, the bond between The Hobbit and TLotR was >firmly established. > >So, to say the TLotR is a sequel to The Hobbit is not quite true, >it depends on how you look at it. > >Jim Sullivan Your arguements against the idea that the Lord of the Rings is a sequel don't seem to prove your point. Tolkien wrote the Hobbit and it was very successful. Then, because the publishers wanted more hobbit books, he not only wrote the LotR, he REWROTE The Hobbit to make it it fit for a sequel! If The Hobbit hadn't been written then TLotR wouldn't have been either. To me, that is the most important point concerning whether a book is a sequel or not - would it have existed without the prior book. Really, the only way LotR could NOT be labled as a sequel is if it was written BEFORE The Hobbit was published. Since it wasn't, it must be a sequel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 19 Jun 85 17:38:11-PDT From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: request for books I am trying to compile a list of books based on myth, excluding Bible literature (no flames please!). Celtic and Welsh myths are of special interest. Thanks a lot; I'll publish a list if anyone's interested. Thanks in advance! Aline Norris Baeck SRI, Int'l Menlo Park, CA NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ttidcb!guzman@topaz.arpa (Marc Guzman) Subject: Title search Date: 12 Jun 85 19:00:52 GMT ... ok, go into a trance. ... tap the racial memory. I am trying to find the title and author of an sf book I read as a kid. My memory is limited to : . there were these vary-hard-to-kill reptilian things called zugs. . and, the specialy bred and raised killers. they were brought up in +1G ?bubbles? to give them the necessary strength and reactions to kill the zugs. . set in the ?mid-distant? future. There might have been a political / social 'situation', but I wouldn't bet on that point. Thanks in advance, Marc ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 20 Jun 1985 02:52:45-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: ROCKY HORROR and its audience > From: lear@topaz.ARPA (eliot lear) > First of all, the audience participation changes - not the movie. > So if there were ever something bored of, it would be seeing RHPS > 70+ times without the "a.p.". A matter of personal taste. I have not seen RHPS anywhere *near* 70 times (more on the order of a dozen). If I had a videotape, I'd maybe watch it an average of once a year. >> (2) It's debatable whether or not RHPS would have become a cult >> film without the a.p. Other cult films, HAROLD AND MAUDE and KING >> OF HEARTS to name two, certainly don't require a.p. And it seems >> to me that the a.p. started *after* RHPS acheived cult status. > > Please define "Cult Status" so that I can understand what you're > talking about. Shall I define "cult film" while I'm at it? I think the definition is clear from context. What don't you understand? The posting to which I was responding put forth the idea that it was the a.p. that made RHPS a cult film. What I was saying was that RHPS was a cult film before the a.p. became the dominant factor in its showing. >> (3) RHPS did indeed start out as a stage play, but *without* a.p. >> The movie was first released in late 1975, and the a.p. didn't >> get into full swing until 1979 or so. > > I KNOW that is not true as I have friends who went for the "a.p." > in '77. I never said that a.p. didn't exist before 1979. Perhaps what I should have said was that a.p. didn't become the *raison d'etre* for RHPS until maybe 1979. Up until that time, I was able to see the film here and there with minimal or no a.p. >> (3) As for renting a videotape, I wish I *could*. But, contrary >> to popular belief, RHPS has *not* yet been released on tape (in >> the US, at least). > > "Life sucks and then you die." If you really miss RHPS get the > film. (Find a friend in England or something). Yes, I miss RHPS, but not to the extent that I am willing to buy a film projector and screen and a copy of the film so that I can watch it once a year. As for getting a videotape from England, I wish I could, but British videotapes are PAL standard, not NTSC. Again, I don't miss RHPS enough to warrant buying a multi-standard VCR. Contrary to your apparent belief, I don't think that RHPS is the greatest thing since the cuckoo clock. It's just reasonably good entertainment that I would like to see some more. > However contrary to your beliefs *MANY* people go to the movie for > the "a.p." and probably would not go without it! Where in my postings did I espouse the belief that many people *don't* go to the movie for the a.p.? I don't refute that statement. I only said that there are some of us who like the movie for itself, and that the a.p. ruins our enjoyment of it. The point I was arguing was the claim that the a.p. was *essential* to the enjoyment of the film. That's pure, unadulterated bullshit. There are many people besides me that *stopped* going to see the movie when the a.p. "took over". In the late 70's, a few sf conventions showed the film, scheduling two separate showings of the film, one very clearly specified as "No audience participation" (which at that time was mostly confined to just yelling comments at the screen --- no rice, toilet paper, etc.). It was no surprise that this "No a.p." showing was attended by a large number of folks who still insisted on yelling their silly comments. If thousands of fans get their kicks dressing up in fishnet stockings and throwing toilet paper every Friday night, that's Aces with me (seriously! no sarcasm intended). I just want those people to be aware that there are those of us who *don't* think that's the be-all and the end-all of RHPS. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Maynard, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA soon to be: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.COM ------------------------------ From: mwm@ucbvax.ARPA (Mike (I'll be mellow when I'm dead) Meyer) Subject: Re: The Problems With Science Fiction Today - a reply Date: 9 Jun 85 08:47:49 GMT oz@yetti.UUCP writes: >Nonsense !! The often-hazy thing called "QUALITY" does exist, but >you will not know it until it hits you right on the face. (For >edification, refer to ZEN_AND_THE_ART_OF_MOTORCYCLE_MAINTENANCE by >R. M. Pirsig) That is why, Michelangelo is not "just another" >sculptor, and that is why #_OF_THE_BEAST is suitable for any >trashcan, whereas THE_SHEEP_ LOOK_UP is not, whether or not you may >believe otherwise. Yup, you're right - I'll know quality when it hits me in the face. For instance, any book that can (intentionally) keep me laughing as long as NOTB did is definetly QUALITY. Or maybe quality in an artistic field is subjective, not objective? Since you seem to think that it's objective, why don't you let the rest of the world in on your measurement technics. >Very good.. now, which one do you think is closer to the TRUTH ??? >(e.g. calling #OFTB a piece of trash vs. calling it a literary >masterpiece, to be remembered by generations to come!!) I don't know - neither do you. Unless, of course, you have a time machine. Considering the amount of verbiage it's generated on the net, I suspect it'll be remembered by generations to come. >Ah, but perhaps we could do just as well, with just half of what is >published. DOes one have to read a lot of nonsense to have fun ??? No, but it helps :-). You might consider that if we stop printing half the SF published (or any other genre, for that matter), chances are the stuff you consider "good" is going to get thrown out, as the stuff that sells (like NOTB) will be what the publishers continue printing. Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #226 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 21 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 226 Today's Topics: Books - Bradshaw & O'Donnell & Rand & Sturgeon & Thomas & Dragonlance, Films - Return to Oz, Television - Star Trek & Robotech & Space: 1999 & Banned Shows, Miscellaneous - Video Tape Formats ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 21:57 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Hawk of May and trilogy While on vacation in England I came across an Arthurian trilogy which deserves mention. After some of the "problems with SF" essays, I am almost afraid to mention yet another Arthurian book, but these quite moved me. The books are by Gillian Bradshaw, Methuen Paperbacks, 11 New Fetter Lane, London, EC4P, 4EE The Hawks of May Kingdom of Summer In Winter's Shadow I have finished the first and part of the second. Despite the surfeit of Arthurian books this is very good. The covers first drew me, but the stories are good. They take liberties with the mythos by creating Gwalchmai, the brother of Agravain, son of Lot, who becomes Arthur's best knight. The interaction with Queen Morgawse and Arthur is well done and quite frightening. Also the emotions of Gwalchmai, as he tried to become a member of Arthur's court were good enough to move me to tears. (Of course, I cry every time I see the end of Casablanca) If you can find these books, these are the best Arthurian spinoffs in quite a while. John Mellby P.O.Box 801, Mail Station 8007 Texas Instruments McKinney Texas 75069 JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 00:12 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: "Bander Snatch" by Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. A little over three months ago, there was a discussion on SF-LOVERS about O'Donnell, and I recall a couple people on the net (myself including) were looking for "Bander Snatch". Although the book has been out of print for five years, I have found a store that, as of eight hours ago, still had three copies in stock. It is: Mark Ziesing P.O. Box 806 Willimantic, CT 06226 Phone: (203) 423-5836 - days (203) 423-3867 - nights (Actually, the above is on the catalog they gave me in the store; in addition to a formidable sf stock, they do mail order. Not bad for a store found by a chance-seen sign while driving through Willimantic!) Incidentally, these copies were autographed, if it makes a difference. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ From: pegasus!naiman@topaz.arpa (Ephrayim J. Naiman) Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand Date: 20 Jun 85 15:53:41 GMT > Rand's obvious happiness in killing off all the "worthless" > characters in this book (which includes over 90% of the general > public) makes it somewhat difficult for most people to buy into > the good points that she is making. While her methods of making > her points are not the most subtle in the world, Rand's questions > of ability and the responsibility of an individual to "donate" his > or her ability to the general good because others have decided so > is well worth considering. Unfortunately, eleven hundred pages is > more considering that you may want to do. The best way to read > this book is to skip all the long speeches (particularly in the > second half) and read it as a science fiction "end of the world" > story. Then do your philosophizing on your own. > Evelyn C. Leeper I disagree. Although I am an avid science fiction fan, I enjoyed the story not for its link to science fiction. Her style of writing has got me totally hooked (although her philosophies I tend to disagree with). I even got through two-thirds of her 56-page speech the second time around. > Of course, things quickly go to hell in a handbasket because of > this, starting with the collapse of the railroads, which Rand sees > as the foundation of American society, trade, and culture. I also felt that Ayn Rand was pushing things a bit to assume that the railroads would pull the rest of the country and world down. Ephrayim J. Naiman AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4,allegra,mtuxo,maxvax,cbosgd,lzmi]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Sturgeon's Law Date: 20 Jun 85 20:45:04 GMT There have been references to Theodore Sturgeon recently, and also a few citations of the famous "Sturgeon's Law". I would like to trace down the actual origin and exact text of this famous principle. This is commonly quoted as "90% of *everything* is crap." However, I have heard that percentage vary from "90%" to "95%" up to "99%". (As a great truth, I lean toward the "99" being the more correct figure. :-) (But here I am more interested in what Sturgeon really said.) Also, the last word has varied from "crap" to "sh*t" (please excuse the usage, but accuracy is more important here than nicety). What is the true wording of this famous phrase? Can anyone cite the actual text where this originated? Or was it of verbal origin, perhaps in a lecture or talk or in a conversation (maybe at a con somewhere?) and entered the SF folklore via reporting and repetition? Thanks for your help! Regards, Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 21:56 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: And now, for something completely different Everyone is asking for stories, so I'm going to ask for a publisher. I was in Wales a while ago and found a book: "A Knot of Spells" by Frances Thomas, Barn Owl Press, 3 Crown Atreet, Port Talbot, West Glamorgan After reading it, I found it to be the SECOND book of a trilogy. Does anyone know a bookstore in the US which could get the other books of this trilogy? They are: The Blindfold Track The Region of the Summer Stars The book itself is about the Welch bard, Taliesin. It is light reading, but enjoyable. John Mellby P.O.Box 801, Mail Station 8007 Texas Instruments McKinney Texas 75069 JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ From: hcrvax!jims@topaz.arpa (Jim Sullivan) Subject: Dragonlance Series: Additional Books Date: 19 Jun 85 02:29:16 GMT When the first posting about the second book in the Dragonlance Series came up, I replied, noting that I couldn't find the additional books in the series. Well, several people took the time to tell me that I was confusing the books with the modules (which those who play AD&D can play). This is my chance to have a global "I told you." On the last page of Book 2, there is the following (note, this is copied without permission, so there!) Other Books in the DRAGONLANCEtm world include: . PRISONERS OF PAX THARKAS by Morris Simon. . THE SOULFORGE by Terry Phillips. Now, does anyone know where I can find these books ? Thanks Jim Sullivan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 12:06:27 PDT From: mccullough.pa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Oz Little known fact, but the Disney Studios own the rights to all the Oz books except the first. In their (current) judgement, there was no one book that could be made into a successful film, hence Return To Oz is a new story. Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and published under Baum's name. ------------------------------ From: mot!al@topaz.arpa (Al Filipski) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it Date: 20 Jun 85 03:27:25 GMT > Is it true that a ship was reported at a range of 10 'microns' in > Battlestar pathetica ? I don't know about that one, but in one episode of Star Trek, in which the ship was being subjected to some extreme conditions, Spock reports to Kirk that the reading on a gauge is something like "7 times 1 to the 35th power" with the implication that this is a large number. The episode might have been "Tomorrow is Yesterday" where they go back and forth in time by whipping through a high gravity gradient. Alan Filipski, UNIX group, Motorola Microsystems, Tempe, AZ U.S.A {seismo|ihnp4}!ut-sally!oakhill!mot!al allegra!sftig!mot!al ucbvax!arizona!asuvax!mot!al ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 23:07:45 CDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: Wanted: videotape of Robotech episode #4 St. Louis' ARCHON convention is looking for a copy of episode #4 of the new Robotech (Japanese animation) TV series. Does anyone out there have a copy they could loan to us for showing or copying? We have permission from the distributors of this series to show anything that has already appeared on the air in the US, but we have to use off-the-air taped copies. Because the local station changed the schedule one week without telling anyone, NOBODY in St. Louis has a copy of episode 4 (except the TV station, and the schedule change was about the most helpful thing they've done to date WRT this program). If anyone in SFL-land has a copy of the episode we need, we can send you a tape to copy it onto, with return postage, or you can send us your tape and we will copy it and return the original with reimbursement for your postage. Cheers, Rich Zellich (314) 421-2860 (collect calls OK on this) ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999, Gerry Anderson and Lew Grade Date: 20 Jun 85 21:53:25 GMT > Space 1999, discussed several times in this news group, came up to > the bat with two strikes against it (is this the right > Americanism?). First, the puppet shows which preceded it; second, > the "Star Trek" which preceded it! Any show (and as far as I'm > aware, there has only been "1999") in which a group of people trek > round the stars is right up against it! We can only compare it > with "Star Trek" and perhaps I'm being biased in saying it would > have to be a damned good show to compete. What? That's ridiculous? Who said anything about Star Trek, or comparing Space:1999 with Star Trek. (There are plenty of SF books, movies, tv shows that have "space voyages" that can stand on their OWN merits without comparing them against anything.) Although I admit that Space:1999 was compared against StarTrek when it first came out, but that's mostly due to the producers. I remember all the blurbs that came out with the promotional crap: "..the first realistic science-fiction drama show since Star Trek..." etc. And the bit about getting some of the Star Trek make-up, costume and production crew and then telling everyone about it...they were inviting comparisons. But, putting all that aside, Space:1999 was just silly. Nuclear waste dumps that ignite (?) and thrust the moon out of earth's orbit (?) with Martin Landau (?) and Barbara Bain (?) at the helm. > Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. Let me just finish by saying > if LLG is fodder for attack, I think you Americans should consider > some of your own producers. Glen Larson isn't as good as he used > to be, and as for Irwin Allen ... Oh, I get it..."...I'm British, and there is someone out there who doesn't like something British...we can't have that...." I was commenting on Space:1999 because it "t'ain't funny McGee..." Of course America has bad producers (we have this thing called "Hollywood mentality") but so does the UK and Australia and Russia and... Face it, can you REALLY like a show that has Barbara Bain saying wonderful dialogue like: "John, I'm scared." with as much emotion as saying: "John, you're tie is in the blender." ? Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: ukc!msp@topaz.arpa (M.S.Parsons) Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time Date: 27 Jun 85 15:08:42 GMT mae@aplvax.UUCP (Mary Anne Espenshade) writes: >The original CBS late-night showing of UFO omitted the episode >Timelash, because Commander Straker and Col. Lake were shown >injecting themselves with stimulents to fight the aliens who had >slowed time over the studio and stopped everyone else in SHADO >headquarters. TIMELASH: So that's the name of that episode! I saw it many years ago but I thought it was excellent. It certainly provoked thought about Time itself. Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel (controlling your local time)? Mike Parsons UUCP: ..{ucl-cs|edcaad|mcvax|qtlon}!ukc!msp msp@ukc.UUCP JANET:MSP%UKC%{EDXA,UCL-CS} MSP@UKC.AC.UK Mail: Computing Lab, University of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, England. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 20 Jun 85 14:15:52-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Re: RHPS, Magenta, and UK video tapes > From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan > BTW, I was under the impression that the UK videos cannot be > played on US machines. That means you would need to buy a UK > machine to copy the UK video to US tape. If someone in UK has a US > machine, I would be glad to send them a tape to get a copy. Ok, here's the facts on TV standards (as far as I understand them anyway) North America and some other parts of the world use the NTSC colour system (sorry color) at a 30 Hertz field rate. Europe and many other parts of the world use PAL or SECAM colour at 25 Hertz. The problem with trying to show a PAL tape in an NTSC environment on single standard equipment is then that the VCR sees all the timing signals at the wrong time and so can't decode a picture and that the colour information is encoded in a different form. The first of these problems can be eliminated by just changing the timebase crystal and many modern VCR's can now decode at either field rate. This gives a monochrome picture at 25Hz. which can be displayed by NTSC televisions because the line and frame oscillators have a wide enough lock range to synchronize with the slightly slower timing. The *big* problem comes with displaying this in colour on an NTSC system. Firstly there is no colour signal coming from the VCR and even if there was, the tv couldn't do anything with it. To solve this, the VCR must be capable of decoding PAL information. Again there does exist multi standard equipment which can do this. Next there must be a tv set which can accept PAL. In Europe at least, it is fairly common for tv sets to be able to do decode PAL/SECAM and NTSC automatically. I suspect the same will be true in the US as the Japanese design tv sets for all world markets and it keeps there costs down if they can keep the designs as similar as possible. All of the above might sound complicated but is actually quite easy to achieve mainly because multi standard equipment is becoming a lot more common. Converting a tape is as far as I know very difficult. How do you make 25 frames into 30 without using lots of digital storage ? Oh well in these days of these micro computer thingies, I suppose its much cheaper than in the old days. Still the somewhat jerky movements that result when live NTSC events are broadcast over here in PAL show that even with expensive equipment that the BBC and ITV use, the results are not particularly amazing. Meaning ? Well I think people can forget about trying to copy UK PAL tapes onto NTSC tapes without degrading the picture quality quite considerably. Go for some degree of multi-standard. NTSC is a terrible colour system anyway and PAL is much better. But then I suppose thats the price you have to pay for pioneering colour television. Hope this has all been reasonably correct and has some relevance to SF-LOVERS. I'm sure I'll be told if its isn't ! Alan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 85 0926-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #227 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 227 Today's Topics: Books - Bradshaw (2 msgs) & Brust & Donaldson & Rand & Zelazny, Films - Rocky Horror (2 msgs), Television - Banned TV Shows & Space: 1999 & Star Trek (2 msgs) & Battlestar Galactica, Miscellaneous - Video Tape Formats (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Jun 85 12:14 EDT Subject: Re: Gillian Bradshaw From: ("Joe Herman @ Merryland ") To: ("JMELLBY%TI-EG%CSNET-RELAY.ARPA@UMD2?") I read your article in SF-Lovers. I quite agree with you. The Hawk of May trillogy is one of the best arthurian tragedies I've ever read. I should warn you, the third book is horribly depressing. It's still one of the best I've read, but it is very sad. Have you found anything else by Gillian Bradshaw? I've only been able to find the trilogy. Do you know if she's still writing? -- Dzoey ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Hawk of May and trilogy Date: 22 Jun 85 14:31:38 GMT Gwalchmai was the Welsh name for the character who appears in later British/French romances as Gawain. Speaking of Welsh names, the characters who appear in Malory and other Arthurian retellings as Lot and Aaron appear in the Welsh triads as Lleu and Araun. (They're the two brothers of Urien, for those who haven't read the Matter of Britain lately.) --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Rereading Brust (& Sequels) Date: 21 Jun 85 05:04:53 GMT I typically let a book wait a week or two before rereading it, but I found that after reading JHEREG, I immediately reread it. (And after reading YENDI, I first reread JHEREG and then reread YENDI.) SKZB, any chance of eventually getting (if not another 15 books to complete the cycle) a prequel showing Vlad meeting Morollan and a sequel/prequel wrapping up Vlad's knowledge of his previous life? Pretty please. ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Wounded Land series Date: 20 Jun 85 06:47:49 GMT mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >I've read 5 books of T.C., which I found compulsive reading. There >are certainly some good ideas in the books, but I would shy WAY >back from a lot of the statements that have been made about the >series. There is a certain dreary sameness of tone in the books >which eventually killed my interest. I will agree that after the first trilogy, it does bog down a bit (and a lot in _The One Tree_). That is one reason why I consider the first trilogy to be the superior of the two. >Something that I didn't notice originally was that great tracts are >tremendously overwritten or contain other stylistic faults. I am >told (although I confess I don't remember the passage) that the >following sentence is taken from a T.C. book: > > "The horses were virtually protrate on their feet." > >One could, I suppose, take this to be poetic; but it gets to you >after a while. This same problem occurs in what is otherwise a >very good story: "Unworthy of the Angel". > >What really struck me as absurd was someone's statement in an >earlier article that there was no connection between the Land and >Middle Earth. Donaldson himself has said that "I consider fiction >to be the only valid tool for theological inquiry." How does this imply a connection between T.C. and LOTR? >Certainly there is a strong mythopoeic quality to the books; what >is more important is the cosmology stated in the very first book. >Anyone who has read the _Silmarillion_ should be able to recognize >the obvious parallels between Sauron and Lord Foul. I have read the Silmarillion and I cannot see *ANY* parallels betwen Sauron and Lord Foul (except that they are both the bad guys). Could you point out some clear parallels? >This is not to say that I think there is any plagarism involved; >but when two writers go to write mythopoeic fiction dealing with >cosmological issues, and when both come out of a well-learned >Judaeo-Christian background, it is to be expected that there should >be some parallels. Again, what parallels? >I would not say that the T.C. books are great literature (as I >would, for instance, say of LOTR). On the other hand, there is >obvious talent there in spite of the various problems. Most of that can be blamed on this being Donaldson's first works (even Tolkien had to have had some rough first works (unless he was a prodigy)). Chris Andersen ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 20:27:39 -0200 Subject: Leeper's review of Atlas Shrugged I am not going to answer anything in that review; anyone who read Atlas Shrugged can answer by himself, and for those who didn't, I can't say much without spoiling the plot. Also, Atlas Shrugged is, in essence, Realism (though it does have a certain Science-Fiction element), so I'm not sure a discussion about it belongs in SFLovers-Digest at all. Let me just say to those who did not read Atlas Shrugged: Leeper's description isn't even remotely connected to what happens in the book. If you decide, because of that review, not to read Atlas Shrugged, then you're making a big mistake. If you want many hours of a unique reading experience, including one of the most suspenseful, ingenious, page-turning plots ever written, consistently appealing and well-drawn characters, and an important, thought-provoking philosophical theme, then I strongly recommend that you do yourself a favor, by reading Atlas Shrugged, as soon as possible. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!bllklly@topaz.arpa (Bill Kelly) Subject: Re: Zelazny, Brust Date: 21 Jun 85 22:15:44 GMT stever@cit-vax writes: >I also have stylistic problems with RZ. When I read a book like >Tanith Lee's "To Kill The Dead", I see a power of characterization >RZ cannot touch. ...Has RZ ever had a truly morbid character? >(Shadowjack sought vengeance which is a quite different thing) Speaking as a Zelazny fan, I think most of his protagonists are pretty much the same character, a male loner, sardonic, somewhat of a rebel, in books like Doorways in the Sand, Amber series (Corwin) and Trumps (Merlin), Roadways(? I have trouble remembering the titles), Changeling(?), The Dying Land, even short stories like the unicorn/chess one in the Unicorn Variation collection. Even Jack of Shadows is a variation on the same theme, though more of a variation than usual. I just happen to like reading about this character! Bi|| {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!bllklly Ke||y 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 ------------------------------ From: ISM780!patrick@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: re: ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW Date: 20 Jun 85 06:47:00 GMT I'm feeling snotty tonight - please excuse. First saw this in a small theatre on the King's Road in the early 70s; it was outrageous, and made us fall off our seats. The movie seemed pale in comparison (the surprise - shock? - was gone). I remember having a similar reaction to Mel Brooks' "The Producers". Saw it about the same time, when it was an obscure B-movie, and the shock value alone had me rolling in the aisles ("he can't do that...."). I still enjoy the movie, but it's not the same. ------------------------------ From: druxo!knf@topaz.arpa (FricklasK) Subject: Re:Rocky Horror Video Tapes Date: 21 Jun 85 18:43:14 GMT I used to belong to Captain Video in San Francisco, and they had tapes on normal VHS format of both RHPS and Shock treatment - SO- They DO exist! Ken PS read Little, Big by John Crowley... ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Date: 20 Jun 85 22:01:16 GMT > Have any episodes of DR WHO,UFO or 1999 been banned in the >U.S.? I know that certain Star Trek episodes were banned in Texas >& four were banned in Britain, the reason being violence. > The reasons given for the banning in Texas indicate that >some of the British shows may run in to similar problems. Notably >THE PYRAMIDS OF MARS story from DR WHO dealing with Egyptian Gods & >THE TROUBLESOME SPIRIT & LAMBDA FACTOR episodes of 1999 dealing >with ghousts and strange powers. Has this happened? > Andy T. I remember reading (many many moons ago) that there were several episodes of Star Trek not shown in parts of Texas, Louisiana, and Arkansas due to "inferences to the devil," or something along those lines. Also, as I have mentioned before in this group, the animated star trek was removed from NBC after portraying Lucifer as a "not-so-bad-guy-afterall." Censorship never seems to end... --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 20 Jun 85 17:01:40 GMT ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) writes: >I was twelve when 1999 first premiered. I thought it was bug eyed >monsters then. The premiere had radiation turning people's eyes >into fried eggs. (Remember that?) The show was bug eyed monsters >and more bug eyed monsters. ummm, I think that was an Outer Limits episode.... Not that I think 1999 wouldn't have done it if they'd have thought of it. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it (Really Star Trek) Date: 19 Jun 85 13:57:25 GMT >> Not that I am defending Space 1949 but ... What about the >> never-ending supply of security officers on the Enterprise > >The Enterprise had starbases with fresh supplies of Redshirts to >serve as monster chow. Space 1999 had NO new people coming in, >excepting Maya, and no supplies. If you want to discuss the various incongruities you should read David Gerrold's book on the show. He discusses such points as how long a Captain of a major capital ship could make it a practice to leave his command and particpate in ground actions without getting cashiered. And most of the time he took his first officer with him too! ------------------------------ From: moncol!john@topaz.arpa (John Ruschmeyer) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 21 Jun 85 08:17:44 GMT >From: thornton@kcl-cs.UUCP (ZNAC468) > Maya's shape changeing ability is not original. Captain >Garth, from STAR TREK's WHOM GODS DESTROY had a similar ability >limited to humanoid forms. He could change into an alien (SPOCK) >and must have physically changed to assume the voice. Here the >ability was called 'CELLULAR REMETAMORPHOSIS'. If one show can get >away with that, why did Maya come in for so much stick? Captain Garth was only shown changing into human or human-like sentient forms. This is the distinction between him and Maya. Maya was shown changing into everything from very non-human aliens to an orange tree. She could also change into beings of equally varying sizes. As others have pointed out in this group, where does the excess energy go when she turns into a fly? By avoiding such drastic form changes, Garth is a much more plausible character. Name: John Ruschmeyer US Mail: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Phone: (201) 222-6600 x366 UUCP: ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john ...!princeton!moncol!john ...!pesnta!moncol!john ------------------------------ From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Re: fixes to Galactica Date: 21 Jun 85 20:57:27 GMT From Jay Parks (parks@noao.UUCP) on suggestions to improve Galactica: > c: Make the cylons aliens, for gosh sakes. If they are robots, > then say that they were constructed by the GALACTICANS! That > could lead to all sorts of interesting intrigue, the invention > that went wrong. You may have missed the reference, Jay, but the Cylons *were* described as built by an alien race that had died out during the long war, leaving only their robots to continue the fight. The original Cylons were reptilian, but not humanoid reptiles like the silly ones in V. They found the human form more efficient and so built their robots in that shape (didn't succeed on efficiency though, since it takes three to fly one fighter). The Cylon command robots, not often seen after the show began concentrating on Baltar's base ship, are shaped like the original Cylons, and look vaguely like frogs to me. Mary Anne Espenshade ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan) Subject: Re: RHPS, Magenta, and UK video tapes Date: 20 Jun 85 09:56:09 GMT > [From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA > BTW, I was under the impression that the UK videos cannot be > played on US machines. That means you would need to buy a UK > machine to copy the UK video to US tape. If someone in UK has a US > machine, I would be glad to send them a tape to get a copy. You are right that UK videos cannot be played on US machines. But you are wrong to think that you can copy a UK video tape to a US tape even with both a US machine and a UK machine. They both use different kinds of video signals and require different kinds of TV sets. The US video signal standard is called NTSC and the UK video signal standard is called PAL. The only ways to copy tapes from UK format to US format, are to buy a special digital device that costs more than $10,000, or to play the UK tape on a UK TV and then copy the picture off of the TV with a camera onto a US tape. This second methods entails serious loss of fidelity. Why do I know this cruft? I collect Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel videos.... Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 85 16:03:22 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: US vs UK television From Gaylene Callaghan: > ... BTW, I was under the impression that the UK videos cannot be > played on US machines. That means you would need to buy a UK > machine to copy the UK video to US tape. It's worse than that. You would need a UK machine to play the tape, a UK television to watch the video signal (it's PAL format, not NTSC), and even a 50hz (maybe 220V) power supply to power the VCR and TV. Then someone with a good color camera and VCR (American) would have to record the TV picture. Needless to say, this will not give you good results. There are some (rather expensive) machines which convert from one format to another. The main problem is that PAL has 625 scan-lines in a picture, while NTSC (American) has 525. The scan-lines have to be averaged together. (For graphics buffs, this is just like anti-aliasing.) Annoying, isn't it? There are several British videotapes that I would buy if it weren't for the difference in formats. (We got stuck with NTSC, sometimes known as "Never Twice the Same Color", the earliest and worst. Most of the world uses PAL ("Perfect At Last"). Now high-resolution TV will appear and make yet another standard or two ... ) --Peter Alfke jpa144@cit-vax alfke.pasa@xerox after 6/30 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 85 0945-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #228 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 228 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson & Rand & Welsh Myths & Controlling Time & The Oz Books (2 msgs), Television - Space: 1999 & Outer Limits & Battlestar Galactica ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 9:24:13 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From Like any good compulsive sf lover, I'll take a shot at almost anything that can be found in the science fiction/fantasy area of a bookstore -- and where a book or author's reputation preceeds it, I'll give more than one try in many cases. I have not read more than half of any book by Stephan R Donaldson. I've tried, but: o I could not relate to the main character. I didn't care about him. He seemed to have the emotional subtlety and sense of a deoderant commercial, to use the first shallow image to comes to mind. This is not a requisite criterion by my standards, but, in the absense of empathy, there should be some implicit point, conflict or interest to keep me connected. o Said protagonist (and perhaps others -- memory blissfully dims) had a remarkable and off-putting propensity for obscure, dumb ephithets. "Helleshin!" comes to mind. What ever happened to "By the crimson bands of Cyttorak", etc? [ Yes, I know -- this is actually one of Dr. Strange's shellscripts ] o Opening any of the books at random, any paragraph I read was more likely than not to be extremely badly written -- overwritten, wrong words used, clumsy, trying to do all the work and not evoking anything. I think I've given the double trilogy a fair shot, and it's not my pot of tea. Given the quantity of books, and their popularity in terms of sales, I should assume there is some merit and value. And then I think of the Gor books, and realize that popularity is no absolute guarantee. I can believe there is something of interest and value inside these books. I just couldn't get through the surface for it. Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ From: azure!michaelk@topaz.arpa (Michael Kersenbrock) Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand Date: 21 Jun 85 07:23:43 GMT > In spite of its over a thousand pages, I can't find much to > say about this book. The premise is that the technical and > managerial geniuses, who have been all that has stood between the > masses and ruin, have decided (with the encouragement of one John > Galt) no longer to let their talents and abilities be comandeered > by those less able than themselves, but instead to drop out of > society and form their own society based on their desires. (I bet > you hadn't realized that Ayn Rand invented the hippie!) Of > course, things quickly go to hell in a handbasket because of this, > starting with the collapse of the railroads, which Rand sees as > the foundation of American society, trade, and culture. The > result is predictable to any one who has read any Rand before > (though I refuse to believe that even as their are food and fuel > shortages because of collapsing (in some cases literally) > railroads, a post card can get from Colorado to New York in four > days. It can't do that now!). Remember that this book was published in 1957, so I suspect that the train system was of greater importance up until that time than it is now. Remember how just the slight (probably faked) oil shortage we had ten or so years ago affected us? What if the oil industry collapsed? (no gas,oil, etc) Society as we know it would collapse instantly. But then, that really isn't an important factor in Rand's book. It could have been anything, railroads were just handy. The book is about individualism and capitalism. When a person is born into a system where everybody else ("society") controls how you do things it can be difficult to know what has been done to you ("brainwashing"). Atlas shrugged goes to great length to convince you of what is going on, that is, how you are being controlled. This is taken both on an individual level and on an economic level. Rand's basic premise is that: you as an individual are important, and that "society" isn't a GOD-like creature that "knows" better than you what you should do in life -- because "society" is simply a large number of folk who know only as much as you do. She believes strongly in personal freedom. Further, she basically pushes the idea of capitalism in it's purest sense. She puts it up as the ideal that society should organize and strive for. This is a book about ideas and ideals. This is particularly interesting because as I understand, Ayn Rand was born and raised in Russia. She is more "American" than Americans (you know what I mean!). Rand greatly simplifies how the world works as to minimize the number of variables in the story. This is like doing a scientific experiment where you keep all the variables fixed except the one you are studying. Rand does this same thing to make her points. Further, she speeds up the effects (like having everything economically collapse in a year or two, where it really would take 20 years) as to speed up the story. These methods distort the story away from daily-life paced action, but then not nearly so much as television where the entire world is constantly saved within an hour (even with commercials). > Rand's obvious happiness in killing off all the "worthless" > characters in this book (which includes over 90% of the general > public) makes it somewhat difficult for most people to buy into > the good points that she is making. While her methods of making > her points are not the most subtle in the world, Rand's questions > of ability and the responsibility of an Indeed, she isn't the least bit subtle, but the concepts are difficult to emotionally accept even though they are very simple logically. Rand takes things to extremes to make her point even clearer, to try and puncture through your emotional resistance to the ideas presented. > individual to "donate" his or her ability to the general good > because others have decided so is well worth considering. > Unfortunately, eleven hundred pages is more considering that you > may want to do. The best way to read this book is to skip all the > long speeches (particularly in the second half) and read it as a > science fiction "end of the world" story. Then do your > philosophizing on your own. Upon the books first reading, I would recommend reading the long speeches (maybe skimming here and there) and to skip them in later readings. This a book I like a very great deal. I would like to get hold of a hard-bound copy. It affected me greatly in terms of "energizing" me in my battle against the world for my livelihood. I think someone can tell whether (s)he will like it in the first couple chapters, because the rest of the book will be the same only intensified. I strongly recommend this book. I regret not one penny of the money that I traded for the book. Mike Kersenbrock Tektronix Microcomputer Development Products Aloha, Oregon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 22:55:21 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #226 Gwalchmai is no "creation" as you put it; Gwalchmai is the Welsh name for Gawain, and he was indeed among the best of Arthur's knights in the original Medieval Welsh legends. If you want to find these, they're usually included with the Four Branches of the Mabinogi, in the manuscripts and/or books that contain them. There are also "continentalised" versions by Chretien de Troyes. There is some argument as to whether or not the Welsh versions we have these days are re-Welshings of Chretien's tales. The tales include the tale of Peredur/Perceval (pretty much the same as Mallory), the story of Owain/Yvain (also known in Welsh as The Tale of the Lady of the Fountain and in French as The Knight of the Lion), and the one story untouched by Chretien, called "Kulhwch and Olwen" which describes how Kulhwch, a nephew of Arthur, wins for himself the daughter of the Chief of Giants for a bride, and includes an amusing five-page long invocation by Kulhwch of all the knights at Arthur's court and some of their strange attributes. Well worth reading; a good translation is in Patrick Ford's _The_Mabinogi_ (UC Press, 1977). You'll find Gwalchmai's name there... Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Subject: Re: On controlling Time Date: 22 Jun 85 08:28:32 EDT (Sat) From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA >From Mike Parsons: >Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about >CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel >(controlling your local time)? There is only one that I can think of: Time Storm by Gordon R. Dickson. Time Storm is about time lines running loose over the Earth, pushing people randomly back and forth in time. One man decides to fight the phenomenon, and begins to control the time lines. He can also move himself and others by controlling the forces that cause the time lines. Interesting, and fun reading. -Nancy ------------------------------ Date: Fri 21 Jun 85 14:51:07-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Re: Aux armes, Citoyens! To: FIRTH@tl-20b.ARPA > Yesterday in a bookstore I picked up a book: Return to Oz a novel > by Joan D Vinge based on a movie from Disney studios. Now the > world knows that the marvelous Oz books were written by L Frank > Baum, may his name be honoured for ever. This variant either > dropped out of a parallel universe or is a condensation of a > couple of those books, especially The Land of Oz (Copyright MCMIV > by L Frank Baum. All Rights Reserved). > > An author lives in his books. To deprive an author, however long > out of copyright, of the acknowledgement that is his due is a foul > crime.... Meanwhile, let all who care about courtesy (at least) > to authors living and dead BOYCOTT THIS BOOK. May those who have > perpetrated this injustice be hated and despised by all > intellectual beings, both men and angels, throughout eternity! If you read carefully, you see that credit is given to Baum, as it is declared that the movie "Return to Oz" is based on /The Land of Oz/ and /Tik-Tok of Oz/. (At least it so declares in the movie ads. I have not inspected the book.) This book is the novel version of the particular story that is told in the movie and as such is hardly a legitimate cause for damnation anymore than the movie is. (Although, I suppose I should wait to see how bad the movie is. (:-)) After all, if you go and look in your bookstore again, you will find millions and millions of Sherlock Holmes stories not written by Arthur Canon Doyle as well as the several Oz books that were written after Baum's death (I don't remember the author's name). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jun 85 03:28:09 PDT From: geacc022%timevx@cit-hamlet.arpa Subject: Oz books > Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton > bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most > were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and > published under Baum's name. My understanding was that L. Frank Baum wrote the original 14 books, which were recently republished by Del Rey, and that others wrote more books after he died under their own names. I have heard, but don't know for sure, that Del Rey is planning on republishing some of the books written by Ruth Plumly Stapleton (sp?). I hope so, at any rate! You may be confusing these later books with the ghostwritten books you refer to -- or you could be right. I'd never heard that one before. Gary Ansok GEACC022%TIMEVX @ CIT-HAMLET.ARPA GEA @ CALTECH.BITNET ...ucbvax!cithep!timevx#geacc022 ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!daar@topaz.arpa (ZNAC426) Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can('t) defend it Date: 22 Jun 85 03:22:10 GMT ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) writes: >The Enterprise had starbases with fresh supplies of Redshirts to >serve as monster chow. Space 1999 had NO new people coming in, >excepting Maya, and no supplies. Most of the Eagles that crashed on the moon could be salvaged. It was the ones that exploded that reduced the numbers. New supplies were constantly being mined from under the base and (presumably) manufacturing new ships. Not that many people got killed off; an average of one per four episodes at most so the population hovered around the 290's mark. The point made by constantly destroying their hardware and not the people indicates that a message of life's indisposeability was trying to be conveyed. Concerning bug eyed monsters from other articles: Star Trek had its share (remember the second pilot where the eyes turned silver) and the episodes with Baloc and the Gorn? I'm sure that if the Horta had eyes they would glow. D. ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 21 Jun 85 18:02:01 GMT > ccrdave@ucdavis.UUCP (Lord Kahless) writes: >>I was twelve when 1999 first premiered. I thought it was bug eyed >>monsters then. The premiere had radiation turning people's eyes >>into fried eggs. (Remember that?) The show was bug eyed monsters >>and more bug eyed monsters. > > ummm, I think that was an Outer Limits episode.... Not that I > think 1999 wouldn't have done it if they'd have thought of it. No, it was 1999. I remember the Outer Limits episode W/ Frank Gorshin and the fried egg eyes caused by some sort of strange stellar radiation on an off world colony. In 1999, radiation from all the radioactive waste stored on the moon began to do something cosmic. It turned people's eyes into poached eggs and then blasted the moon out of Earth's orbit, straight into some sort of time warp which happened to be sitting nearby. Personally, I think the basic premise for 1999 came from an episode of Outer Limits involving a lunar base. (I think Martin Landau was even the base commander, and as I remember the episode it was better than most episodes of 1999.) I am sure 1999 wasn't beyond stealing some fried eggs. Lord Kahless ------------------------------ From: daemon!davest@topaz.arpa (Dave Stewart) Subject: Re: a gauntlet accepted: fixes to 1999, Galactica Date: 21 Jun 85 21:50:43 GMT Battlestar Galactica: Star Wars meets Prime Time. parks@noao.UUCP (Jay Parks) writes: >SECTION 3: CattleCar Badactica (Uh sorry) >a: Have them get closer to earth. The eternal optimism of the network executive: We sure hope this show catches on and gets renewed for lots of years so it doesn't make sense to undermine the concept which motivates the characters (ie, they can't find Earth, be wiped out, defeat the Cylons, etc). This attitude prevales until the show is canceled. >b: The nature of the villains should have been changed. It makes the good guys seem really good to make the bad guys seem rather cardboard, inhuman monsters. How simple to make them machines! No need for messy things like character development - just gun 'em down. An 80's (70's?) Ponderosa. Also, the "two ragtag fleets" don't provide enough certain peril for the colonists (underdog vs vast odds concept that helped Star Wars). What bothered me was that the undefended ships in the colonial fleet never got blasted! >c: Make the cylons aliens, for gosh sakes. Might have worked, but see above. Good suggestions, but BG suffered from being bridled with too many network formulas. David C. Stewart uucp: tektronix!davest Small Systems Support Group csnet: davest@TEKTRONIX Tektronix, Inc. phone: (503) 627-5418 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jun 85 1002-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #229 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 24 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 229 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & Harrison & Rand & Williams, Television - Space: 1999 (2 msgs) & Battlestar Galactica & Banned Shows, Miscellaneous - Spoilers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Wounded Land series Date: 20 Jun 85 14:56:25 GMT steven@luke.UUCP (Steven List) writes: >The biggest problem I have with Donaldson's dual trilogy (other >than the depressing, frustrating, aggravating nature of the main >character) is his use of language. I don't object to being forced >to look up an occasional new word or twenty. But GIVE ME A BREAK. >Donaldson seems to be incapable of writing two pages without >introducing a word that nobody I know has ever heard of! I, on the other hand, was familiar with almost all of the words Donaldson used in the Covenant books AND HE USED THEM INCORRECTLY! Donaldson seemed to be writing from a dictionary, finding interesting words and misusing them because he didn't really have a feel for them. Now before the flames start, I would like to say what I did the last time the Covenant books came up here. I read them eagerly as soon as I could get my hands on them, despite a prose-style that brought me to tears on occasion. Why? Two reasons. First reason. Story-telling ability is independent of writing ability in some people. This is true for Donaldson (and on the opposite end of the verbiage spectrum, Doc Smith). Donaldson grotesquely overwrites; Doc Smith couldn't write a believable piece of dialogue if his life depended on it. Yet when reading both writers, I ALWAYS WANTED TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED NEXT. Nothing to sneer at, and certainly enough to make a career out of. Second reason. NOBODY in any branch of literature (that I have read) can match Donaldson for vileness. Everyone else is a bush-leaguer compared to him: constantly despicable protagonists surrounded by even worse antagonists with just enough virtuous characters on the periphery to make the others seem worse in contrast. I am honest in praising him for this, not coyly insulting him. The creation of so many exasperatingly loathesome characters is a true achievement that no other writer (to my knowledge) has matched. Perhaps we readers would usually prefer to read books that instilled positive emotions, but instilling powerful negative emotions is just as valid an accomplishment. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: crash!jerryh@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 11:13:39 PDT Subject: Chronicles of Thomas Covenant I've been following the discussion of Stephen Donaldson's _Covenant_ series over the past few days (digests) and couldn't stay silent any longer. Donaldson is a gifted writer and a superb storyteller, but I can't bring myself to finish reading the _Second_Chronicles_. I found the plot line very banal and trivial (forgivable sin), and extremely padded (unforgivable sin). I stopped half-way into the second book (fifth in the overall series) when I realized that I had plowed through 150 pages of dialog that had gone nowhere and done nothing. One of the best examples of padding I've ever seen. I might have been able to continue wading through it if I hadn't though to myself "Gee, this story never lets up! There's something depressing on every page!" Intrigued, I went back to page one and started looking for dialogs or descriptions that *weren't* Gloom And Doom. Guess what? The first _163_ pages of _The_One_Tree_ are continuous, non-stop depression. Every one of those pages has at least one mention of something depressing, morbid, flagelatory or unpleasant. Finally, on page 164, four paragraphs that don't deal with something depressing. I don't know about anyone else, but I was getting tired of paying for the privilege (in time and money) of watching Donaldson air his psychological laundry in public. In my opinion, whatever merit the _Covenant_ stories have has been ruined by heavy-handed applications of depression and despair. I know, I know -- "But that's the whole point of things! Covenant's despair!" I understand that. But six novels and 3000 plus pages devoted to nothing but despair? Give me a break. Donaldson had a great concept in Thomas Covenant, and does a good job creating his world and breathing life into its characters, but he pushed me well past my saturation level with unrelenting doses of depression. I felt like I was being beat over the head with it; like I was too stupid to understand what was going on, and had to be constantly reminded so I wouldn't forget what the story was about. I liked the first three books (even though it might appear otherwise), but I think the last three were a mistake. What I read of them seemed to be a rehash of the first trilogy -- an excuse for Donaldson to drop off more of his mental baggage and make money while doing so. Jerry Hewett {crash!jerryh@ucsd} ------------------------------ Date: Sat 22 Jun 85 14:20:20-PDT From: Bruce Subject: /Stainless Steel Rat/ comic book A "6 issue rodent series", published by Eagle Comics. Based on the books by Harry Harrison, adaptated by Kelvin Gosnell, art by Carlos Ezquerra. According to the blurb on the inside front cover, the six issues will reprint adaptations of /The Stainless Steel Rat/, /The SS Rat Saves the World/ and /The SS Rat for President/ which were originally printed in the British SF weekly /2000 A.D./ between 1979 and 1984. The adaptation is reasonably accurate, as far as I can remember. One objection is that the series reduces three 100+ pages paperback books to six 42 page comic books, which seems like a loss in detail. Some of this is admittedly picked up in the art, but the net effect is a shorter story. It's worth looking at, at least to see if Ezquerra's image of Di Griz looks anything like yours. And maybe we can get back to work on casting the Rat movie.... I vote for Ronald Reagan as Inskipp ((:-) anything to get him out of the White House!). ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand Date: 22 Jun 85 14:03:49 GMT For consistency with Leeper beliefs on spoilers, this review should have been marked "spoiler." The reason why all those people were gradually evaporating is the book's Maguffin (Hitchcock's term for the thing the plot/hero(ine) focused on chasing down). You don't find out until halfway through. I find the book's preachiness somewhat easier to tolerate (i.e. skim over) than its sex scenes. Rand's heroines find true love in what looks altogether too much like rape to an outside reader. (This is true not only of this book but also of THE FOUNTAINHEAD, Rand's SF novella, and her play. It may be a giveaway that she adored reading Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer. Sometimes I wonder if she would have also liked Norman's Tarl Cabot had she lived long enough to read him.) Of Dagny's three lovers, the first shows his love by slapping her (when she suggests she could be more popular if she got poorer grades); the second tells her he despises her because she is willing to fall in with his lusts; and the third has her without asking her consent on the railroad track. I am also somewhat annoyed by the romanticization of smoking. On the other hand, the idea of a "Robin Hood" who robs from the governments and gives to the should-be rich whose money has been taxed away is truly delightful. And a lot of the plot is very interesting and well written. If you like preachy predictions of doom with SF overtones, I also recommend Taylor Caldwell's THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, Sinclair Lewis's IT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE,...In fact, a lot of mainstream writers have written one. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 23:05:27 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: A Taliesin Trilogy? Sounds real good; I've never heard of it, though there's a narrative poem (I believe) by Charles Williams (of the Inklings) called "The Region of Summer Stars". It is part of his series of "Taliessin [sic] Poems" which include "Taliessin Through Logres" and one other whose name I forget. Given all the hoohah lately about copyrights, isn't it a good thing Williams is dead? (;-) Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: Space 1999 : SF-on-TV in general Date: 23 Jun 85 02:49:29 GMT Here I am again, defending a program I didn't even like that much. Its the on-going Space-1999 debate (one which I hope will run and run). Most postings in this discussion have been quite sensible and restrained although there has been one line of attack which I find quite ludicrous. I refer, of course, to the "scientific" aspects of the show. All these discussions about "what would really happen if the moon blasted out of orbit". Now, I have nothing against such calculations and even find them interesting but.... lets "get real" (or rather, unreal) about this topic. Of the "popular" SF tv series, I cannot think of one which abides by known scientific laws. The galactic voids of endless space require (at least) the "invention" of a warp drive capability. We must get the show on the road, you know! So perhaps we can't hope to have a "realistic" show; we NEED the pseudo-science; and we can even enjoy the pseudo-science. Anybody who has read "The Best Of Trek" paperbacks (and, if any of U ST fans haven't, stop reading this, go down to your nearest bookshop and BUY them... it's o.k., I'll wait for you) (Ah, good, you're back!) and enjoyed the discussions on the pseudo-science of ST will know what I mean. The only (at least, the best) grounds for criticising SF-on-TV must lie in the stories and characters and situations themselves. Here, I suspect, Space-1999 does fall down -- certainly in the awful second season with Maya (this is not because of Maya, I add). Mind you, as has been pointed out in other postings on this subject, the reason for Maya's addition is pretty obvious. I don't think we have to *search* for a similar character in a "similar" series, do we? I mean, on the grounds of "science", we can rip Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica to shreads. Here we have space vehicles which look like supersonic fighters and fly like them too and have really exciting (now very boring )space dog-fights. All very pretty, but hardly accurate. At least, the Eagles *looked* like spacecraft (even if there was an unlimited supply of them). I have noticed that it tends to be British posters (such as myself) who are defending Space-1999 and mostly Americans who are attacking it. Well, I predict if this goes on, we will witness a European Battlestar Galactica back-lash. Here is a clear contender for the *worst* SF-on-TV, *ever*. So, I leave it up to my companions on this side of the pond to work up an attack on B-G; that is, if they ever had the bad taste to watch that garbage! A disclaimer : my view of the American view of B-G is based on "Starlog" magazine. According to that rag, B-G was the best thing *ever* and loved by all. So maybe some of you good-guys in the states would like to let us Europeans know what the true feelings re B-G were. I'll get out of your way now; thanks for listening. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Continuity errors (1999) Date: 21 Jun 85 20:54:23 GMT From: Andy T. (thornton@kcl-cs.UUCP) > Does anyone out there look out for little continuity errors? > I spotted several in 1999. Koenig's space suit collar in BREAKAWAY > changes from smooth to ringed before he crashes over beacon Delta > for instance, and Carter's visor falls open in SPACE WARP! The first is a "little continuity error" and I can't claim to have ever noticed it, but the second is a big mistake and has a funny story to go with it, as told by Nick Tate (Alan Carter) one year at the Space: 1999 Alliance con. When the visor came open during the take, Nick pointed out the problem to the director thinking that they would redo the scene. The director said something along the lines of "Oh, no one will notice", and used it anyway. Of course, sf fans being like we are, most everyone notices it right away. With that kind of attitude from the people in charge, is it any wonder the show had problems? Mary Anne Espenshade ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae P.S. This year's Alliance con is in Washington D.C. in July, if anyone is interested. ------------------------------ From: sw1c!ucoelm@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: SPACE 1999. - You can't defend it Date: 20 Jun 85 01:19:41 GMT >> Is it true that a ship was reported at a range of 10 'microns' in >> Battlestar pathetica ? >> -- Ian W Moor > > Quite true. I was watching with a group of highly-amused friends > when we heard: > "Captain, the alien ship is within 10 microns of us!" > One of us immedieately cried, > "Nobody inhale!" > > Betsy Perry Funny enough, I also said the same thing the first time I heard it. 10 MICRONS??? Their long range sensor must be a micrometer. However, after watching several episodes I realized that a micron must be a unit of time. They were simply estimating the enemy's distance from them in time units based upon each other's velocity. I finally figured out that a micron was approximately equal to one second earth time. However, I was never able to figure out how much earth time was in one of their centon's (sp?). I cracked up during one episode when a character who was not part of the "rag-tag space fleet" was encountered and asked the magic question (paraphrased) "What the hell is a centon?" I still didn't hear a satisfactory answer, if I heard one at all. Any comments? Need I ask? :-) Lee Morehead Southwestern Bell Telephone Co. ...!ihnp4!sw1c!ucoelm ------------------------------ From: calmasd!cjn@topaz.arpa (Cheryl Nemeth) Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Date: 22 Jun 85 03:51:24 GMT Which ST articles were banned in Texas? ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers Date: 20 Jun 85 15:09:26 GMT Ken Moreau wants someone to say something about spoilers because he enjoys a book more the second time through than the first. My two cents' worth: I think there is a difference between enjoying a story and enjoying a book. The nervous tension of "What is going to happen next?" that Ken had trouble with is part of my enjoyment of a story. The story is happening for me for the first time and the doubt and wonder of seeing it all is dependent on not knowing what the end will be. One can identify in whole or in part with the characters of the story as it unfolds. Of course, as you say, when you are entirely wrapped up in the story, it is harder to appreciate the book: the prose style, the themes, subtleties, etc. This is why a second (or Nth) reading of a worthwhile book can be just as rewarding as the first (at least for people who are able to appreciate more than one literary level). I suppose there are some people who have more all-encompassing reading ability and can get a multitude of levels on the first pass. I personally like having the maximum of both worlds: uncritical gobbling of vicarious thrills first time through, then a more sedate second pass (if the book warrants it, of course). Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jun 85 1120-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #230 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 230 Today's Topics: Books - Story Request & SF Poll, Films - Film Title Request, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (2 msgs) & Deus Ex Machina ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Jun 85 19:38:40 EDT From: Nick Simicich Subject: Story title request. A friend of mine is looking for a book title. Perhaps you can help: Thought I'd ask all you SciFi nuts about a book I've been trying to (re)find for years. I could swear the word 'belt' or 'timebelt' was used someplace in the title. The story is about a guy who got a belt for his birthday from a relative. The belt is supposed to allow him to travel in time... While putting on the belt and doubtfully looking it over, he gets a knock on his door. He opens the door to find 'himself' - who tells him that he'll understand later, comes in and grabs something and leaves. So the guy decides to set the belt back a few hours and try it out... he ends up back in time by a few hours. Somewhere along the line he must go back to his apartment. He comes up to the door, hears someone inside, and it dawns on him. He knocks- 'himself' answers - he explains to 'himself' that he'll understand later and goes and gets something in the apartment and leaves. Get the idea? It was a very interesting look at the paradox of time travel and I'd really like to find it again. I know it sounds kind of corny with my description - but it's really very good... The guy starts running into 'himself' all over the place - as an old man, middle-aged... He must keep reaching farther and farther back into time to 'undo' things he does on each trip... and can never be sure whether another 'him' has been there already. Can anyone recall such a story and the title and/or author? ------------------------------ From: hpisla!jayj@topaz.arpa (Jay Johannes) Subject: Re: SF Poll. "Best" 59 books (so far). Film at 11. Date: 19 Jun 85 19:35:00 GMT Hold on just a second, here. I have been reading over the list and am wondering if everybody knows what "canonical" means? Webster gives definitions of orthodox and simplest form. I take the word in context to mean that the author wanted those stories that have set the standards for the current state of science fiction. That is, those stories that have broken new ground in either plot or style. I am not going to argue about the QUALITY of the stories that were listed. Most are very good examples of the best authors. However, many just cannot be classed as ground breaking. I especially question those stories that have been published within the last 12 months. How can a new story be changing directions already? A number of the books on the list can be traced back to earlier works sometimes even to works by the same author. One of the problems might be that some of the most innovative work is done in short story format. The novel, which requires much more extensive plot and character development, generally doesn't have the same freedom to work with new directions. I guess the offshoot is that I am not sure that asking for novels is the best way of exploring this. I finish up with an apology for not yet submitting my own list. The check is in the mail :-) ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: obscure film memory -- HELP! Date: 24 Jun 85 21:30:09 GMT Sorry to bother you with this; I'll try to keep it as short as possible. For years now I have had a vague memory of an SF movie; whenever I seek help, no one seems to have heard of it. I now realize the net is possibly the best chance I'll ever have of finding someone who also remembers it. Synopsis : scientist experimenting with radiation (ho,hum). Radiation affects insects, causing them to grow to man-size. Earth (or at least, island of *mad* scientist and lovely daughter) in jeopardy! Help arrives in the form of a flying saucer carrying an apparent human (male). He solves the problem; lovely daughter falls for spaceman. Close of film, as spaceman leaves, she tells him of her love. He reveals this is not his true form; to his race, she is revolting. Exeunt. Terrible, isn't it! I think the man was played by Michael Rennie -- but I could just be mixing this up with the magnificent "The Day The Earth Stood Still". Answers, if any, by "mail" please; I'll post the best answer (and credit the sender). UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VII Date: 21 Jun 85 18:33:34 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY PART VII: Thematic Drought by Davis Tucker The major themes of science fiction are pretty well understood by most people who have read something other than "Dune" and "Stranger In A Strange Land". They usually break down into a few narrow categories: self-realization, power and corruption, revenge, the triumph of intellect over brute force, and the old standby of fantasy - good against evil. Of all of these, it is safe to say that fully 50% of all science fiction novels deal with self-realization, or to lapse into estspeak, self-actualization. Wherein a character, either through magic, or genetic modification, or superior altruism, or sheer knowledge, becomes something greater than what he once was. It's a part of the collective subconscious of science fiction, this urge to know and read that man can become immortal, or superhumanly strong, or wise without growing old. In this, there is a common bond with ancient literature of all cultures. Usually (as in myths and fairy tales and sagas, etc.) this self-actualization is placed in the framework of good against evil. The other themes are also present in such diverse works as The Arabian Nights, The Mabinogoin, the Norse sagas, Greek myths, and the many Irish folk tales. For lack of a less pretentious word, these are universal themes. We see these themes reflected in the science fiction we read - "The Stars My Destination" is an excellent revenge novel, and also involves a healthy dose of good vs. evil and self-realization. The Foundation Trilogy is a textbook example of the intellect over brute force theme (remember Salvor Hardin's innumerable aphorisms?). "The Lord Of The Rings" is a good vs. evil novel. "Dune" is a self-realization novel in the classic science fiction tradition. This may seem like oversimplification, but on the whole, these are fair assessments of these novels. Science fiction is not known for its thematic subtlety. But let us return to modern novel, starting with "Don Quixote De La Mancha" and Dante's "Inferno", "Purgatorio", and "Paradiso". What distinguishes the modern novel from its predecessors (such as the Siegfried Legend, Tristan and Isolde, The Song Of Roland) is its thematic leap into the modern world of shades of grey, existentialism, its willingness to grapple with insanity and hatred and love and lust from the inside, not the surface. Shakespeare was fundamentally different in his world-view and his approach to human personality than playwrights that preceded him by 50 years. The Renaissance freed readers and writers from the thematic stranglehold of previous times, and the flowering of literature as we know it began again, after centuries of drought. The novels and short stories of the 19th and 20th centuries have given us insight into the worlds within us that have lain buried, strange themes of degradation and desperation such as Dostoevsky's "Notes From The Underground", Kafka's "The Trial", Orwell's "1984" and "Down And Out In Paris And London", and Hugo's "Les Miserables". Self- discovery instead of self-actualization (who you are, not what you can become) such as Kerouac's "On The Road" or Salinger's "Catcher In The Rye". Love stories such as "Dr. Zhivago" and "Anna Karenina". Tales of obsession and murder and lust such as Nabokov's "Lolita", Capote's "In Cold Blood", Jack Abbot's "In The Belly Of The Beast". Tragedies and comedies galore. Why is it that this freedom of themes, this wealth of subject material, is not present in science fiction? When was the last time you read a real-life, honest-to-god science fiction tragedy? Why is it that nobody has written a truly great *love story* in science fiction? Where is the human failure, the small glories, the defeats of growing old, the joy in childhood, the pain of growing aware, the acceptance that we all must come to in time, the heartache, the anguish, the ecstasy? This is why so many science fiction novels come across as cold-hearted and intellectual and juvenile. They don't address themselves to what is fundamentally imperative when one is writing about human beings, or aliens, or any kind of consciousness that feels and thinks. It would be far better if more authors of science fiction showed as much passion and interest in their characters' lives as they do in their "universes" and scientific extrapolation. Human nature is much more interesting than particle physics, and it's a much richer lode of strangeness and imagination. From the comic to the tragic, to the macabre and bizarre to the beautiful and the sublime, there is a wealth of thematic material that has been untouched by science fiction writers. The genre needs more authors who understand that human beings are the strangest things in our universe, both the most predictable and unpredictable, who understand and embrace the thematic freedom that science fiction has to offer without accepting its self-imposed restrictions. Artistic freedom that is not exercised is no freedom at all. The thematic range of science fiction needs to be expanded, not just into the range of mainstream fiction, but beyond it. As Rod Serling would have put it, there are no bounds, there are no forbidden areas, there are no obstacles except imagination. Science fiction can branch out and grab the freedom that has always been available to it, or it can withdraw even further into the shell of its own making. Time will tell. Well, that's just one man's opinion. Tune in next week for "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VIII: Politics And Science Fiction". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 08:24 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: Problems in SF THE PROBLEMS OF DAVIS TUCKER'S PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY First off, as the person responsible for part 2 or your response, I'm really rather sorry about asking you if you thought you were Ghod - we all have off days and I guess that was one of mine. I'm also disappointed that people on the net would stoop to sending personal attacks to you rather than replies on the net where everyone can read them. Come on folks, at least have the guts to stand by what you say. Onward. In my opinion, the reason you have drawn such heated response (which may have been your intention to begin with - heated debate, that is) is the attitude you seem to take in your messages. It struck me as being arrogant to say the least. If your purpose in the Problems With SF series was to get people to read other forms of literature, you certainly went about it the wrong way. When you mercilessly attack something near and dear to someone, you put them on the defensive - something SF fans have been on (not as much lately) for a good while. Had you begun by telling us that you also enjoyed reading for fun and then had gone into persuasive arguments in favor of broadening our reading horizons (something I'm entirely in favor of - there's a lot of excellent work being done outside of SF that deserves to be read) you might have had more success. Instead we got, "That sucks, this doesn't, only an idiot would read that crap." Of course, you didn't use those words but that was the impression many people got from reading your messages. In your A SHORT RESPONSE you tell us "I realize that what I say is my opinion." Right after that you say "You may think that Norman Rockwell is vastly superior to Van Gogh, but you would be wrong." You've just contradicted yourself (I doubt you'll agree with me, though). If I like Rockwell better than Van Gogh does that mean I'm wrong? No, it means my opinion is different from yours. All a critic is is someone who has studied a certain subject significantly more than the average person. Their opinion may be more learned than mine, but mine is still valid! As you said, lighten up. You also claim to support your opinions with logic and fact. Crap. You give us your opinion of what is bad SF or bad fantasy and claim it is logic? The only "fact" you used is a quote from Phillip K. Dick. You're very proud of it, aren't you? You joyfully tell us that the "majority of responses have ignored the main point of each essay. No one chose to argue with Phillip K. Dick..." What can I do? I could give you a quote from me but you wouldn't accept it because my opinion would be wrong (to you). Remember, regardless of his stature in the field, P.K. Dick was giving his OPINION in the quote you used! Why do you assume all readers of science fiction believe that everything they read is incredibly wonderful literary art? Just like you, I read and enjoy "trash" novels. Novels that are fun to read. I don't think Battlefield Earth was literary art, but it was a Hell of lot of fun to read. This, I believe, is where You read for fun, but you also read for enlightenment into the human condition or whatever. I can get reality every day for free, I don't need to dish out money at the bookstore for it too. (No, that doesn't mean I don't read anything but "trash." I read a large number of books each year and have read quite a few I'm sure you would approve of. However, I don't feel it necessary to force others into my mold.) In closing I'd like to mention something I learned when I took a Shakespeare class a few years ago. These days, the Bard is considered to be one of the greatest of writers. During his day, his plays were considered to be trash. No reputable library had copies of them. They weren't literature then, they are now. Interesting. In future generations, the books you have spent so much time touting may be unknown and the books you have called trash may be considered classics. That's all for now. Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 14:47:06 PDT Subject: deus ex machina >And then of course, there is the deus ex machina. That beloved >ending of science fiction, more used than anything. In mainstream >fiction, it's tough to get away with that kind of ending (we don't >believe in gods falling out of the sky anymore... sigh). Where the >writer paints himself into the proverbial corner and voila! Here >comes the zygomatic thundercruncher's unknown power in all its >awesome majesty, which of course the villain didn't know anything >about, since we all know that a villain couldn't see a deus ex >machina if it came up and bit him, even when it's been telegraphed >in screaming semaphore for fifty pages. It's either that, or write >a sequel. The Good Guys and the Bad Guys have been fighting a terrible war for years. The Good Guys are winning, but the Baddies are clearly going to fight on, costing countless lives on both sides. Happily, the Good Guys have invented The Wonder Weapon. The order is given by True Harry the Great, leader of the Good Guys, and the terrible force of The Wonder Weapon is unleashed on two cities of the Bad Guys. Overwhelmed by this new force, they surrender at once. Good Guys--U.S.A. Bad Guys--Japan Year--1945 A.D. Just thought I'd point out that deus ex machina shows up in real life. (Sadly, however, we've also been doing sequels as often as possible.) /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jun 85 1141-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #231 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 231 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Daley & Heinlein & Spider Robinson & Story Request Answered & Oz Stories, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) & How to Fix Bad Shows, Miscellaneous - The Problems With SF & Telling the Plot & Sturgeon's Law (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: garfield!jeff1@topaz.arpa (Jeff Sparkes) Subject: Ford Prefect Date: 19 Jun 85 12:36:33 GMT In Hitchhikers, it says that Ford Prefect had mistakenly chosen his name to be "especially inconspicuous". What is it about the name that makes it overly conspicuous? It's a little strange, but not THAT strange. Is this some British joke that I'm not aware of? Jeff Sparkes garfield!jeff1 ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Book Review: Brian Daley Date: 24 Jun 85 20:24:07 GMT The Doomfarers of Coramonde - Brian Daley - 1977 If you have been looking for a good storyteller who does not get bogged down in detail this book is for you. Daley's story is well written with a good vocabulary. The wording is not quite as exotic as Donaldson's words (the dictionary please...) but offers some intelligent stimulation. The thing I liked most about the book was that it didn't follow the back cover. He does not go into boring background detail, but rather tells us enough and goes on with the plot. The sub-scheme from the back cover is done with after the first hundred pages or so (out of 344) and the story continues. The setting is another world. Magic is prevalent but secondary to the plot. The characters are unique and flavorful. Basic plot: throne usurped. pretender seeks allies, regains crown, baddy escapes for sequel - The Starfarers of Coramonde. Problems: it doesn't keep you into it all the time, I put it down and came back many times. You can see where he plants the seeds. The scenes of magical description are too brief and there aren't enough of them. Sometimes his lightness creeps in and he doesn't seem to take his story serious enough. Moshe Eliovson ..{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1985 1754 PST From: Alvin Wong Subject: Heinlein Someone asked a while back what was the "Glaroon" in a couple of Robert Heinlein's stories. I did not see an answer to this since. I too am greatly puzzled by this reference and would appreciate answers/minor pointers. Has anybody seen the offbeat SF movie "A Brother From Another Planet"? It was released just last year. Al ------------------------------ From: utai!wjr@topaz.arpa (William Rucklidge) Subject: Re: Spider Robinson Date: 19 Jun 85 20:19:31 GMT > From: Dave Godwin > Somebody out there asked about the book 'Night of Power' > that is listed in the front of Melancholy Elephants. This book is > an example of changing the name of a book between production and > publication, something that happens now and again. 'Night of > Power' was originally to be called 'Race War', and Spider read the > first chapter or so to a bunch of folks (me, for one) at the last > WorldCon. It sounds really good. The reason the book is listed > as if it were in print is because the publisher is going to have > it on the shelves Real Soon Now. We've just gotta be patient. > Even if it is new Robinson. Well, _Night_of_Power_ has been out for a fair time here in Canada. It is a good story, well told. I picked my copy up near the end of May, at Torque, at the Bakka table. (For those of you who have never heard of Torque, it is Toronto's semi-occasional 'alternate' con. Attendance this year was about 90. Bakka is (I believe) the oldest science fiction bookstore in North America (their 13th birthday was last month).) William Rucklidge University of Toronto UUCP {ihnp4 utzoo decwrl uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!wjr CSNet wjr@toronto BITNET wjr at utoronto ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: Zugs Date: 22 Jun 85 01:53:47 GMT guzman@ttidcb.UUCP (Marc Guzman) writes: >I am trying to find the title and author of an sf book I read as a >kid. My memory is limited to : > > . there were these very-hard-to-kill reptilian things > called zugs. > > . and, the specially bred and raised killers. they were > brought up in +1G ?bubbles? to give them the necessary > strength and reactions to kill the zugs. > > . set in the ?mid-distant? future. > >There might have been a political / social 'situation', but I >wouldn't bet on that point. This sounds like 'Beyond the Barrier' by Damon Knight. R.Ramsay ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 05:51:57-PDT From: wix%bergil.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jack Wickwire) Subject: Oz Authorship From: mccullough.pa@Xerox.ARPA >Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton >bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most >were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and >published under Baum's name. Do you mean to say that credit for certain of the books belongs to someone other than L. Frank Baum? L. Frank Baum wrote (I think) 10 Oz books. After he stopped writing them, more were written by, first, Ruth Plumly Thompson and then a few more by at least one more author. Baum was credited on the covers of these books with the creation of Oz and the basic characters. They were not published "under Baum's name." If someone is claiming that any of those first books were ghost written then it is not a "little known fact", but a major accusation. It came as news to a member of the Ozian fan club member that I spoke to about this. If you have more information than the sketchy details you have given please submit something a little meatier. Baum also published other children's fantasy such as _Queen_Xixi_of_Ix_ and _Dot_and_Trot_in_Merryland_. While Thompson's books are enjoyable they lack the wonderful period narrative mixed with social satire that made the Oz books of Baum's so much fun to read. I have not yet seen the movie but the only negative reviews that I have been told of are comparing it to the loosely related musical version. The new film sounds like it tries to capture the charm of the books and not be _OVER_THE_RAINBOW:_PART_II_ .wIx. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 85 10:19 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Star Trek: 1**35 The "one to the 35th power" line is from "Court Martial," and is uttered by Spock. He's not under duress; he's explaining how much he has turned up the gain on an audio sensor, so as to detect the heartbeat of...well, any more would be a spoiler. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 1985 10:26:30-EDT (Monday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: 7 time 1 to the 35 Was actually 1 to the 1,000,000 power, and was spoken by Kirk in the episode Courtmartial. Since Kirk is somewhat distraught at the time, his slip is understandable. ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: How to fix bad sci-fi Date: 20 Jun 85 04:00:00 GMT Now this is an interesting problem. Several shows have come out with reasonable acting, drama, comedy, effects, production and REALLY STUPID SCRIPTS. What I would like to know is how to communicate to producers like Glen Larson et al how to fix their series so they become classics instead of turkeys. Here are some ideas V: This is one of the easiest to fix. When I watched the original 2 part mini-series, I thought, "Wow, this is great!" Then suddenly, in the second episode, they turned out to be lizards in human suits coming to eat us and steal our water. To me, the series would have been greatly improved if they had been humans (cousins of us, as in Chariots of the Gods) come here to take us as slaves. There's only one commodity a highly advanced race would travel light-years to take by force, and that's slaves. It certainly isn't water. Also lose the girl "Elizabeth." Galactica: Harder to fix, but vaguely reminiscent of the Saberhagen Berserker stories. Remember, at the start the Cylons were robots built by a living race who turned on their masters and then went out to subjugate and destroy life. A good premise as any Berserker fan will know. In these stories, man is the only race aggressive enough to defeat the unliving enemy. So in Galactica, you could have had a defeated society tricked by the cylons on a trek through the galaxy for the only other known advanced civilization - a future Earth. They would probably know where Earth is, but it might be a dozen years away at superlight velocity, so there has been no commerce and little communication. Change the fleet into something more reasonable, include some full sized colonizing ships that escaped the war, and you could get a much better setting. Space 1999: Hardest of all to fix, because you just can't buy a flying moon, except perhaps with spindizzies, and they wouldn't be that out of control. The fact remains that if you are going to have an interstellar adventure show, you have just got to have FTL drives. Starlost: The premise was fine, the execution was terrible on this one. There have been lots of good "lost ark in space" novels, so they have no excuses. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jun 85 22:48 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: The Problems with SF (yet again) First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Tucker for doing that which we, as human beings, do so much better than any creature on this planet. Trying to start an argument is such a human thing that I would worry if it were not present everywhere I look. I have nothing to add, really, to his arguments and certainly will not endeavor to counter them. After all, I don't care if he doesn't like all the short stories he reads. Heavens, I don't like all the ones I read. Some are downright weird, but well done (like _Venice Drowned_) while others should be used in the bathroom (although at least they get paid for their verbosity Mr. Tucker). And then there are the really good stories (I nominate _The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreak_ again, read it!). As with all things, we must take the good with the bad. There really is NO way to generate only good, because this world is full of trite little beings who all like different things. Power to them, I say. I know what I like and I shall keep looking for it. I recommend you do the same (that was a BIG "you" by the way). And let me remind all those that have been getting irate at Mr. Tucker about two things: 1) You are getting this free. 2) All that exists is atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion. Oh yeah, I want to nominate the last piece of _V: The Final Battle_ for the stupidest pull some special effects out of a hat for the grand finale ending ever in the history of anything I have ever seen. Yuckola! Whoever did that should be shot, or made to watch the series over and over again. Heck, s/he'd probably enjoy it. Sorry about the flames, but everyone who wants a chance, gets one. (FREEdom, that is one of our worship words!) Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Telling the Plot Date: 22 Jun 85 13:48:59 GMT I'm contending that a murder mystery spoiled by finding out that the ballerina (or butler) did it is merely a piece of third rate writing. I don't find THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV spoiled because I now know which brother killed Fyodor. I don't even find Sayers' Wimsey books spoiled because I know Whodunnit. A book is as much about those "subtleties" (interplay of characterization, for instance) as about what happens next. I don't find knowing the plot of a book spoils it anymore than knowing its theme or mood. (I just finished an enjoyable evening of rereading O'Henry stories. A "surprise" ending sometimes hits you even harder when you know it's coming.) Incidentally, I have to confess typically skimming the last page of a new book before buying it. (And so do many of my friends.) I started this back in the late 60s, as SF books began imitating New Yorker short stories. I don't like novels that end up along the lines of "He was now Emperor of the Galaxy, but what did it all mean? Hadn't he been happier as a simple zort-herd. Esmerella had thought so, and now she was dead. Phargamerp drank some more rooq and fell asleep." Since publishers aren't willing to flag these books as "Pretentious/Depressing" on the back cover, the only protection seems to be checking them out for myself ahead of time. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law Date: 21 Jun 85 23:57:57 GMT wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes: >There have been references to Theodore Sturgeon recently, and also >a few citations of the famous "Sturgeon's Law". > >What is the true wording of this famous phrase? > >Can anyone cite the actual text where this originated? Or was it of >verbal origin, perhaps in a lecture or talk or in a conversation >(maybe at a con somewhere?) and entered the SF folklore via >reporting and repetition? The way I heard it went something like this: During a conversation at a party (con?) a rather obnoxious critic said to Ted "90% of Science Fiction is crap.". Ted's immediate reply was the now famous "Of course. 90% of _everything_ is crap.". Personally, I like Bradbury's defense better: "A horrible little boy came up to me and said 'You know your in your book _The Martian Chronicles?'. I said 'Yes?'. He said 'You know where you talk about Diemos rising in the east?'. I said 'Yes?' He said 'No.' -- So I hit him." The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law Date: 22 Jun 85 14:26:32 GMT The way I heard it, Sturgeon's Law went, "90% of everything is crud." (Crap and shit can sometimes be useful, if only as manure. Crud is by definition useless.) If true, this represents an interesting case of popular myth cacophemizing a saying. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: sun!jsc@topaz.arpa (James Carrington) Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law Date: 23 Jun 85 06:57:40 GMT I hate to post something I can't substantiate right at the moment, but I believe he said it at a world science fiction convention, while on some panel or another of sf authors. I recall reading an anecdote about it in one of I. Asimov's HUGO winners anthologies. James Carrington SUN Microsystems Associate Engineer 2550 Garcia Ave. MS1-40 Workstation Division Mountain View CA 94043 Networking Department 415-960-7438 ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 24 June 1985, 09:44-EDT From: James M. Turner Subject: Sturgeon's Law The story, as told to me: There was a panel at a convention, that Ted Sturgeon was sitting on. The title of the panel was something like "Quality SF". Suddenly, this young fan in the audience starts reading passages from some truely putrid stories. Pretty soon, everyone is rolling in the aisles. Then he turns to Sturgeon and says, ``Sir, 90% of this stuff is crap.'' Sturgeon paused for a moment, and replied, ``Son, 90% of *everything* is crap.'' ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jun 85 1203-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #232 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 232 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson (4 msgs) & Rand & Footfall, Television - Banned Shows (2 msgs) & Space: 1999 (2 msgs) & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Time Control & Sturgeon's Law ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1985 10:26 EDT From: Dean Sutherland Subject: Wounded Land Series... Jim Gardner says: > Second reason. NOBODY in any branch of literature (that I have > read) can match Donaldson for vileness. Everyone else is a > bush-leaguer compared to him: constantly despicable protagonists > surrounded by even worse antagonists with just enough virtuous > characters on the periphery to make the others seem worse in > contrast. Try Glen Cook's "Black Company" trilogy (The Black Company, Shadows Linger, and The White Rose). The Black Company of the title is a mercenary company trying to survive and fulfill their contracts (in that order). They are working for one of the most evil types I have run across in a long time. Their job is to put down a rebellion. Most things, however, are not what they seem (of course), but it still takes until the third book of the trilogy to meet anyone who might be accurately described as a "goodguy". The series is VERY bleak, but it is good reading. Unlike TC, it has no great literary pretensions. Instead it is a quality piece of workmanship; a good read with at least a few well developed characters. I recommend it for anyone who is not easily depressed. Dean F. Sutherland (sutherland@Tartan.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: ukma!sean@topaz.arpa (Sean Casey) Subject: Re: Wounded Land series Date: 23 Jun 85 05:20:16 GMT steven@luke.UUCP (Steven List) writes: [Regarding the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever] >...Reading them was more along the lines of fulfilling a commitment >than pleasure. I just had to do it and get it over with. The odds >are great that I will never buy another book by Donaldson again. Hmm you ought to try his book of short stories. Some are kind of dull but I thought that at least two were really good, worth buying the book. (I can't remember the name. I lent it to someone a while back.) Sean Casey Department of Mathematics University of Kentucky UUCP: {cbosgd,anlams,hasmed}!ukma!sean ARPA: ukma!sean@ANL-MCS.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ihuxn!res@topaz.arpa (Rich Strebendt @ AT&T Information Systems From: - Indian Hill West; formerly) Subject: Re: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From Date: 23 Jun 85 22:31:01 GMT In response to (much edited original posting): > Like any good compulsive sf lover, I'll take a shot at almost > anything that can be found in the science fiction/fantasy area of > a bookstore AHHHH -- a kindred soul!!! > I have not read more than half of any book by Stephan R Donaldson. > I've tried, but: > > o I could not relate to the main character. > o Said protagonist (and perhaps others -- memory blissfully > dims) had a remarkable and off-putting propensity for obscure, > dumb ephithets. > o Opening any of the books at random, any paragraph I read was > more likely than not to be extremely badly written -- > overwritten, wrong words used, clumsy, trying to do all the > work and not evoking anything. > > I can believe there is something of interest and value inside > these books. I just couldn't get through the surface for it. It looks like I did a little better(?) than you -- I read two whole volumes and part of the third before I gave up in disgust. I found the protagonist to be a first order jackass, the dialog to be unconvincing, and the prose to be pretentious. I pressed on with the stories, however, in the hope that there would be some redeeming value -- about a third of the way into the third volume it became clear that NOTHING could save the story. I guess I do not find anti-heros entertaining or depressing story lines amusing. Rich Strebendt ...!ihnp4!iwsl6!res ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From Date: 23 Jun 85 08:16:56 GMT ddern@bbncch writes: >Like any good compulsive sf lover, I'll take a shot at almost >anything that can be found in the science fiction/fantasy area of a >bookstore -- and where a book or author's reputation preceeds it, >I'll give more than one try in many cases. > >I have not read more than half of any book by Stephan R Donaldson. >I've tried, but: > o I could not relate to the main character. I didn't care about > him. He seemed to have the emotional subtlety and sense of a > deoderant commercial, to use the first shallow image to comes > to mind. This is not a requisite criterion by my standards, > but, in the absense of empathy, there should be some implicit > point, conflict or interest to keep me connected. Does one have to be a leper in order to have empathy with the guy? I think not. To me, the character shows just how much society can ostracize people for what is essentially a misconception. Furthermore, I think the idea of the main character being a leper was the main reason why I got into this story so quickly. If someone had asked me what leprosy was, I wouldn't have been able to give even a half decent answer (I wouldn't be surprised if most people, beyond a few doctors, would fail at this too). Leprosy becomes more then just a disease in this story, it's a way of life for Covenant. > o Said protagonist (and perhaps others -- memory blissfully dims) > had a remarkable and off-putting propensity for obscure, dumb > ephithets. "Helleshin!" comes to mind. What ever happened to > "By the crimson bands of Cyttorak", etc? [ Yes, I know -- this > is actually one of Dr. Strange's shellscripts ] I don't remember "Helleshin!" at all (could you perhaps e-mail me the page on which it occurs?), He did however say "Hellfire!" quite often. > o Opening any of the books at random, any paragraph I read was > more likely than not to be extremely badly written -- > overwritten, wrong words used, clumsy, trying to do all the > work and not evoking anything. I'll concede this point. Donaldson would be a nightmare to most english teachers (my gripe: he over uses similes (like, as, as, like, etc.)). However, consider first that this is the first book he has written and I wouldn't be surprised if many of todays best sf writers also had bad writing styles when they first started. Furthermore, even with the bad writing, he still moved me tremendously with his story. Of course, this may have to do with not really caring as much about the mechanics of writing as about what is being written. I think others sometimes allow their demand for good mechanics to destroy an otherwise pleasurable reading experience. >I think I've given the double trilogy a fair shot, and it's not my >pot of tea. I'm not going to force you to change your mind. But that doesn't mean I won't try to shoot down your criticism. >Given the quantity of books, and their popularity in terms of >sales, I should assume there is some merit and value. Never assume. > And then I think of the Gor books, and realize that popularity is >no absolute guarantee. You like Gor too? :-) >I can believe there is something of interest and value inside these >books. I just couldn't get through the surface for it. How one comes out after reading Covenant may very well depend on how one is feeling when first picks up the book. Chris Andersen tektronix!azure!chrisa ------------------------------ From: whuxlm!mag@topaz.arpa (Gray Michael A) Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand Date: 25 Jun 85 01:44:50 GMT > I find the book's preachiness somewhat easier to tolerate (i.e. > skim over) than its sex scenes. Rand's heroines find true love in > what looks altogether too much like rape to an outside reader. > (This is true not only of this > > Of Dagny's three lovers, the first shows his love by slapping her > (when she suggests she could be more popular if she got poorer > grades); the second tells her he despises her because she is > willing to fall in with his lusts; and the third has her without > asking her consent on the railroad track. This comment I couldn't let pass -- it is a distortion of what Rand wrote. The first love's slapping is indeed an act of love. One of Rand's special talents is to cleverly show that good acts taken out of context (as above) can look very odd. The second lover had a psychological problem at the time he told her he despised her. Rand makes this very clear. In addition, Dagny knows at the time that he really doesn't mean it, laughs at it, and straightens him out. True, the third does not say, "Will you allow me to have sexual intercourse with you?" They simply exchange 200 pages of smoldering glances, then HE walks into a railroad tunnel, SHE follows him, and they make love, which they both clearly enjoy. Hardly what is suggested above. Mike Gray ------------------------------ From: uottawa!erics@topaz.arpa (Eric Smith) Subject: Re: Footfall - new Niven and Pournelle Date: 18 Jun 85 14:32:00 GMT Henry Vogel writes: >I finished Footfall, the new book by Niven and Pournelle, a couple >of days ago. It's an alien-invasion-of-earth novel and quite well >done. It's kind of... >own complex society that differs from our in several ways. One of >the few things that bothered me about the book was the aliens' >assumption that their inbred customs would be the same as ours (the >aliens idea of surrender, for example, is significantly different >than ours). That's the only nit I have to pick with the novel. Actually, it seems to me that we humans often assume that our customs will be the same as thoses of others. It's a frequent cause of misunderstanding. Why shouldn't aliens be subject to the same foibles? (Although it would be nice if they weren't). Eric Smith University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ont. ...utzoo!dciem!nrcaero!uottawa!erics ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 85 22:28:19 CDT From: Mike Caplinger Subject: Re: banned episode inquiry The Dallas TV station that showed daily Star Trek reruns was also the carrier for 700 Club and a number of other "Christian television" programs. There were about 4 episodes which they refused to show. Two were "In the Wink of an Eye" (due to the sexual connotations of the infamous "Kirk pulling his boot on after a commercial" scene) and "And the Children Shall Lead" (presumably because of some Satanic interpretation). Sorry I don't know what the other two are. I heard about this in college from Dallas friends, never having lived there myself. - Mike ------------------------------ Subject: ST ban in Texas Date: 25 Jun 85 08:29:20 PDT (Tue) From: Dave Godwin I don't believe that the ban is still in effect. I do not recall all of the banned episodes specifically, but do recall exactly that the episode 'Bread and Circuses', the episode where the Enterprise crew runs into (sic) a very Earth type planet with a version of the Roman Empire. Except that this is prox 20th century Earth, and Rome never fell. The episode was banned because the culture on this planet had parallels to both the Romans, and to an underground christian culture based upon it's own Christ figure. The powers that be stepped on the episode, apparently because Earth is the only planet in the cosmos God is looking out for. Dave ------------------------------ From: utflis!chai@topaz.arpa (Henry Chai) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 23 Jun 85 07:23:27 GMT thornton@westo.UUCP (znac468) writes: > Maya's shape changing ability is not original. Captain >Garth, from STAR TREK's WHOM GODS DESTROY had a similar ability >limited to humanoid forms. If one show can get away with that, why >did Maya come in for so much stick? > Andy T. I remember in one episode Maya and Tony were stuck in an Eagle which was running out of oxygen . Our ever resourceful Maya saved the day by turning into a *PLANT* of all things. (breathing *in* the CO2 and breathing *out* O2) Somebody also pointed out that there is a problem of mass conservation when she turns into a mouse and then a 10-foot alien. But hey, don't get me wrong; I *liked* the show! It was entertaining when you don't pick over the scientific and technical details. Henry Chai Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!david@topaz.arpa (David Coffield) Subject: Space 1999 & Startrek Date: 25 Jun 85 08:05:01 GMT Someone recently noted that the replacement of Eagle landers on Space 1999 was not possible due to the fact that the base had very finite resources. He also noted that the Enterprise could easily pop in to a starbase for repairs. What puzzles me is that the 5 year mission of the Enterprise was "to boldy go .." etc and therefore there shouldn't be a starbase in sight if they were chartering unknown territory. Also, how come they knew the name of every planet they visited? Surely they wouldn't have had a name if no-one had been there before. Just a thought UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!david DARPA: david%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: david@uk.ac.lancs.comp Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4150 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 02:17:43 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: bloopers Speaking of "microns"... There is one Star Trek episode I remember where all the bridge personnel were watching something on the main screen and Captain Kirk gave the following order: "increase to one to the seventh magnification." I bet it didn't do a whole lot of good! William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ From: moncol!john@topaz.arpa (John Ruschmeyer) Subject: Re: on controlling Time Date: 23 Jun 85 17:05:17 GMT >From: msp@ukc.UUCP (M.S.Parsons) >Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about >CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel >(controlling your local time)? Try the new Star Trek novel "Killing Time", by Dell Van Hise. Name: John Ruschmeyer US Mail: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Phone: (201) 222-6600 x366 UUCP: ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john ...!princeton!moncol!john ...!pesnta!moncol!john ------------------------------ To: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA Subject: Re: Sturgeon's Law Date: 24 Jun 85 14:37:12 EDT (Mon) From: Burgess Allison >This is commonly quoted as "90% of *everything* is crap." However, >I have heard that percentage vary from "90%" to "95%" up to "99%". >(As a great truth, I lean toward the "99" being the more correct >figure. :-) (But here I am more interested in what Sturgeon really >said.) Just to add to breadth of variation (sorry, I don't have an answer), Paul Dickson in his 1978 Dell Publishing book, The_Official_Rules, cites the law as "90 percent of everything is crud." He goes on to add: This law is widely quoted--from "The Washington Post" to "Harper's"--with the percentages varying from 90 to 99 percent and the last word variously "crud" or "crap." I know this doesn't help, but it's an interesting question. Burgess Allison ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Jun 85 0935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #233 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 26 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 233 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Ellison & The Oz Canon, Television - SF on TV, Miscellaneous - Controlling Time (4 msgs) & Spoilers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Re: Ford Prefect Date: 25 Jun 85 15:20:40 GMT > In Hitchhikers, it says that Ford Prefect had mistakenly > chosen his name to be "especially inconspicuous". What is it > about the name that makes it overly conpicuous? > > Jeff Sparkes The Ford Prefect was apparently a hideously popular auto marketed by the Ford Motor Company in Great Britain. I'm not sure where I heard this, but it may have been the interview with Douglas Adams in a recent MacWorld magazine. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ From: ames!barry@topaz.arpa (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: Ellison and TERMINATOR Date: 25 Jun 85 16:55:25 GMT >A few people have mentioned the legal bruhaha about the film THE >TERMINATOR and the payment that Ellison received on copyright >infringement grounds for similarities to the two Outer Limits >episodes that Ellison wrote. I haven't seen much in the way of >opinion about the situation. I want to express an opinion. I >think it stinks. ... Then Ellison and Bova wrote a story called >"Brillo" about how a human is better than a robot to act as a >policeman. In some ways it reused ideas from Asimov and others, >but nobody cared because it was a different approach to some of >Asimov's ideas. A TV network considered adapting "Brillo" into a >series or a TV movie or something but the project never got off the >ground. That same network did do a series on the concept that a >robot policeman would have to overcome initial prejudice, but would >be a good thing. It is highly profitable to win a suit against a >network and Ellison and Bova sued. They apparently demonstrated >that "Brillo" inspired the concept of FUTURE COP and laid claim to >ownership of the idea of a robot policeman. They must have had a >darn good lawyer but they won that one. Science fiction fans >everywhere applauded that a couple science fiction writers had won >a suit against a big, bad corporation. .... My impression is that >Ellison is just a parasite who claims to be disgusted at how the >film industry does not meet his high science fiction standards, yet >when they try to play by the same rules that we expect from science >fiction writers, he is right in there with his lawyer trying to >make a fast buck. Anyone else out there have thoughts on this. Sure do. I'm unfamiliar with the TERMINATOR matter,and don't know if Ellison had good grounds for claiming plagiarism. But "Brillo" was open-and-shut. "Future Cop" was an outright steal of Ellison's and Bova's "Brillo" script. If you think a plagiarism suit is winnable in court just by having a "good lawyer", you ought to look into the "Brillo" case, and the laws on plagiarism generally, a bit more thoroughly. It's very tough to win a plagiarism case, but Ellison had them dead to rights. You might keep in mind that ABC and Paramount had some pretty good lawyers, too. It's easy to sue someone, and even winning such a suit proves nothing if it's settled out of court, since the defendant may have reasons to want to settle with you even if they're not guilty. But to win such a case *in court*, as Ellison and Bova did with "Brillo", against a team of lawyers from two large corporations, is pretty damn conclusive. Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA USENET: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 07:45:24-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Wherever you go, there you are.) Subject: The Oz canon and the film > ...credit is given to Baum, as it is declared that the movie > "Return to Oz" is based on /The Land of Oz/ and /Tik-Tok of Oz/. > (At least it so declares in the movie ads. I have not inspected > the book.) Actually, the film credits say /The Land of Oz/ and /Ozma of Oz/. the plot of the film follows TLoO fairly closely, with only touches from OoO. If you are a Baum fan, GO SEE THE FILM. It's delightful; the Disney people did a very good job of capturing the feeling of Oz as envisaged by Baum, with the characters modeled after the drawings by John R. Neill, who did all the Baum books except the first one. Don't take VERY small children to see it - there are a couple of rather intense moments. Baum, who was called the Royal Historian of Oz, wrote 14 Oz books: 1. The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (reissued as The Wizard of Oz) 2. The Marvelous Land of Oz (reissued as The Land of Oz) 3. Ozma of Oz 4. Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz 5. The Road to Oz 6. The Emerald City of Oz 7. The Patchwork Girl of Oz 8. Tik-Tok of Oz 9. The Scarecrow of Oz 10. Rinkitink in Oz 11. The Lost Princess of Oz 12. The Tin Woodman of Oz 13. The Magic of Oz 14. Glinda of Oz Ruth Plumly Thompson, who I believe was Baum's daughter, wrote 19 more: 15. The Royal Book of Oz 16. Kabumpo in Oz 17. The Cowardly Lion of Oz 18. Grampa in Oz 19. The Lost King of Oz 20. The Hungry Tiger of Oz 21. The Gnome King of Oz (Baum, never a scholar, spelled it 'Nome'!) 22. The Giant Horse of Oz 23. Jack Pumpkinhead of Oz 24. The Yellow Knight of Oz 25. Pirates in Oz 26. The Purple Prince of Oz 27. Ojo in Oz 28. Speedy in Oz 29. The Wishing Horse of Oz 30. Captain Salt in Oz 31. Handy Mandy in Oz 32. The Silver Princess in Oz 33. Ozoplaning with the Wizard of Oz John R. Neill, who had illustrated Baum's works, did three: 34. The Wonder City of Oz 35. Scalawagons of Oz 36. Lucky Bucky in Oz Jack Snow, about whom I know nothing, did two: 37. The Magical Mimics in Oz 38. The Shaggy Man of Oz Rachel R. Cosgrove did one: 39. The Hidden Valley of Oz Finally, Eloise Jarvis McGraw and Lauren McGraw Wagner did one: 40. Merry Go Round in Oz The titles, naming various characters as they do, belie the fact that many of the characters, including Tik-Tok, Ozma, and Jack Pumpkinhead, were introduced in TLoO. The Oz canon, if it may be called such, is thus set at 40 books. Baum also wrote a stage play about Oz, which was produced to rave reviews, and several silent screenplays, which were filmed by his own production company. The Disney Studios bought the film rights to Baum's books, excepting only the first, which was already owned by MGM. Disney actually started production of a musical called "The Rainbow Land of Oz" in the '50s, but Walt himself stopped it when he realised that it wasn't even going to approach the appeal of the Judy Garland film. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) UUCP: { decvax, allegra, ucbvax... } !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-dosadi!binder ARPA: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 19:09:08 EDT From: John f. Hardesty Subject: SCIFI & TV You know that all this nitpicking with SPACE:1999 and Battlestar Galactia every body has forgotten that TV shows don't represent reality but what Hollywood wants it to. Really, in all seriousness, SPACE:1999 & Battlestar Galactia was not all that bad for entertainment sakes - the show is good enough to waste an hour of someone's leisure time. I mean , in Star Wars a lot of the stuff was a bit too unbelieveable but did people really care. I mean they enjoyed the movies. I have a bit of trivia for somebody - What were the two pilot only shows that Gene Roddenberry came up with and what was the other series that he came up with that was reformatted into a slightly different format. Here are the clues - For the two pilots only One was science fiction about a advanced race watching over us (Very ambigious clue) The other was more occult oriented. The short lived series was about present day man in the future (NOT Buck Rogers). Can anybody name them all. Would anybody care to comment on the current (last season) science fiction series - V - . John Hardesty jhardest@BBNCCT ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jun 85 12:53:17 PDT (Monday) From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF on controlling Time Mike Parsons(ukc!msp@topaz.arpa) asks: >Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about >CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel >(controlling your local time)? I remember a book from a few years back called "Planet of Treason" that dealt with time control. In this book, a tribe of super-philosophers developed the ability to control one's rate of flow through time. Using this ability, one could live a day in an hour, or vice versa, but couldn't jump through time, or go backwards either. This control could also be extended to other objects, including other people. By the way, has anybody else read "Planet of Treason"? Anybody remember who it's by? I read this quite a few years ago. At that time, I thought it was quite good. I'd like to read it again if I could find it. -- Josh Susser ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: SF on controlling Time Date: 24 Jun 85 15:14:57 GMT >>From: msp@ukc.UUCP (M.S.Parsons) >>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about >>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel >>(controlling your local time)? One of the oddest premises for a novel I've ever read is Fred Hoyle's "October the First is Too Late" (possibly "October the Second is Too Late" -- it's been years since I read it). Essentially, the premise is this (spoiler, spoiler, spoiler): Earth's reality is being transmitted (like a TV transmission) from somewhere out in space. A deep space probe sent out by earth gets in the way of the transmission and scrambles it. Result: the earth's reality goes out of synch. Simultaneously, Greece is in Homeric times, Mexico is somewhere in the 21st century, Russia is baked glass (presumably after the sun goes nova), and so on. Sounds like a comedy, but it isn't, and I think it suits your request for time control. If you want a comedy about time control, there is "Where were you last Pluterday?" (sorry, can't remember the author). Pluterday is the eighth day of the week, but only the rich people have access to it. This lets them take the day off, not worry about crowded beaches, and so on. A very strange book too, but a lot of fun. The Pluterday concept is carried one step further in Dayworld, Phillip Jose Farmer's newest novel (only out in hard cover as far as I know). The premise is that overpopulation has grown so rampant that the people of earth have been split into seven parts, each of which are allowed out only one day of the week. (The rest of the time they're in suspended animation.) Thus there are Tuesday people, Wednesday people, and so on. There are also criminals called Daybreakers who don't go into suspended animation when they're supposed to. Not the usual sort of thing you think of for "time control", but still a controlled time situation. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: ihuxn!res@topaz.arpa (Rich Strebendt @ AT&T Information Systems From: - Indian Hill West; formerly) Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time Date: 24 Jun 85 22:09:47 GMT >Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about >CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel >(controlling your local time)? A classic along these lines is "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and Everything" or something close to this (my library is at home, though there are days I wish I kept it at my office !!!). There was a movie by the same name that was a fairly decent rendition of the book. Rich Strebendt ...!ihnp4!iwsl6!res ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jun 85 09:32:12 PDT (Tuesday) From: Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #228 Mike Parsons asked for some good stories about controlling time, as opposed to simply time-travel. "The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreck", by {someone whose name I can't remember -- but the story has recently been mentioned in this digest} is such a story. The hero is an otherwise normal 19th-century seaman, leader of a rescue crew, who subconsciously manifests enormous control over the passage of time in order to save the crewmen of a ship wrecked off the coast of Maine. He does such things as enormously slow the passage of time to gain finer control over events, change past events (such as the manufacturing of the ship's mast) to change the present, alter people's past behavior ... it's a really excellent story. You can find it in "Best SF of the Year #9" edited by Terry Carr. --Peter Alfke (now alfke.pasa@xerox) ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers (really, literary suspense) Date: 25 Jun 85 20:13:15 GMT moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: > To me, knowing every line of a book, every plot twist, knowing who > lives, who dies, which people manage to get together (if anyone > manages to), is the only way that I can enjoy it. Otherwise the > nervous tension of simply *NOT KNOWING* what is going to happen > seriously detracts from any pleasure that I might have gotten out > of it. > In fiction you never know if the next paragraph will not have > the aliens landing and blowing away ever character you know about > so far. . . . the tension of watching (waiting) for that almost > ruins my enjoyment of any book the first time through. [ FlameThrower setTemp: low. ] Y'know, I always like tension, suspense, and surprise in books. This can work either way: not knowing what's going to happen (e.g., will the aliens land and blow away every character you know about so far, which make for the suspense in the first hundred pages of Niven and Pournelle's FOOTFALL), or having a pretty good idea what's going to happen, and watching the writer tighten the noose (see Orson Scott Card's ENDER'S GAME). I find I like reading a story a second time more than I like watching it a second time. Thus, given my druthers (and sufficient patience), I watch the movie before I read the book. > For example, I just finished "To Reign In Hell". Excellent job, > SKZB. But the instant that I finished the last page, I flipped > back and started with the first page, to re-read the entire book > so I could *ENJOY* it this time. I do this with almost every book > I read (except the ones that I didn't like for other reasons (such > as boredom)). [ FlameThrower setTemp: comfyWarm. ] I'm trying to remember the last time I finished a book (for the first time) and immediately turned back to page one and re-read it. DAMIANO? There are darned few books that can get me to do that; the ones that can are terrific. You could argue that you haven't really read a book until you've read it at least twice.* In fact, I suspect some of you will. (*Three times for LORD OF LIGHT. Five? This one was definitely a "let's go to the video tape" and re-read right away book.) (P.S.: Do the aliens land and blow away ever character you know about so far in FOOTFALL? Heh heh heh . . .) Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 85 0852-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #234 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 234 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Didion & Rand (2 msgs) & End of Civilization Stories & Book Request & Story Request Answered (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Life Imitating Art & Sturgeon's Law ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: Re: Ford Prefect Date: 23 Jun 85 02:31:31 GMT jeff1@garfield.UUCP (Jeff Sparkes) writes: > In Hitchhikers, it says that Ford Prefect had mistakenly >chosen his name to be "especially inconspicuous". What is it about >the name that makes it overly conpicuous? It's a little strange, >but not THAT strange. Is this some British joke that I'm not aware >of? I took the joke to be that no name is "especially inconspicuous" - i think that is amusing in itself. I mean, how seriously can you take a book with statements like "the ship hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't" and "the liquid tasted almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea", and situations in which the protagonist presses a mysterious button only to have the button light up and say "please don't press this button again". This is not material to be taken lightly! By the way i recommend this trilogy (of _four_ books!) to all who find the following piece of dialogue amusing: Alice: "..that's not what that word means!" Humpty Dumpty: "Words mean what i say they mean - i pay them extra". (None of these quotations are exact - my books are at home - but i hope i've captured the sense correctly... which reminds me of another Carrolian twist - "take care of the sense and the sounds will take care of themselves"). Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ Date: Tue 25 Jun 85 14:57:58-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #229 > Second reason. NOBODY in any branch of literature (that I have > read) can match Donaldson for vileness. Everyone else is a > bush-leaguer compared to him: constantly despicable protagonists > surrounded by even worse antagonists with just enough virtuous > characters on the periphery to make the others seem worse in > contrast. (Recommendations, for those who like to read about vile characters.) These things are hard to measure quantitatively, but I found Joan Didion's characters (not SF: _A_Book_Of_Common_Prayer_, for one) viler than Thomas Covenant. Didion is more subtle than Donaldson. Covenant was foul as an adaptation to his leprosy; without it, without [terrestrial] treatment of him as a leper, I think, he would have been a reasonably normal person. He expresses his nastiness in some fairly blatant ways, like raping people and being depressed at the reader for kilopages. Didion's characters seem to be naturally horrible; at least, they were foul *before* various nasty things happend to them. Even worse, reading Didion, you feel that her characters could be living within a few blocks of you... (Well, that may be an inherent advantage of mainstream Literature over SF: you know the setting exists. On the other talon, the ability to create an appropriate setting is an advantage of SF.) Finally, Didion's books are an order of magnitude shorter than the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, so those who only want to taste foulness can read them. Glen Cook's works -- the Dread Empire and Black Company series, and _The_Swordbearer_ in particular -- have a more interesting contrast between good and evil, fair and foul. Both sides are pretty scuzzy, both have their good points and their reasons (except for the occasional elemental force). They're better written and (like almost everything) considerably shorter than Covenant. Well, if this gets any longer, I'll have to send it to FOULNESS-LOVERS rather than SF-LOVERS. Enjoy, insofar as is possible. Bard ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR @ Hmmmm...I'm not sure) Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand Date: 25 Jun 85 16:22:36 GMT > book but also of THE FOUNTAINHEAD, Rand's SF novella, and her > play. It may I thought I'd read every piece of fiction she ever wrote, but perhaps I'm wrong. Are you referring to ANTHEM? Also, her point in the rough love-making is her creed that 'I live my life for no one and ask no one to live for me.' (not an exact quote). I see this as excluding tenderness and giving of pleasure to the other person; rather, it's taking--exactly what is seen in THE FOUNTAINHEAD. Jean Marie Diaz ------------------------------ From: mhuxt!js2j@topaz.arpa (sonntag) Subject: Re: ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand Date: 25 Jun 85 20:58:53 GMT > Also, her point in the rough love-making is her creed that 'I live > my life for no one and ask no one to live for me.' (not an exact > quote). I see this as excluding tenderness and giving of pleasure > to the other person; rather, it's taking--exactly what is seen in > THE FOUNTAINHEAD. Her creed (above) *doesn't* exclude tenderness and the giving of pleasure to the other person. People have been known to trade pleasure for pleasure or to find pleasure *in* giving pleasure. (to use a trivial example: while I don't live my life for my SO, I *do* enjoy rubbing her back, simply because I know she enjoys it so much.) This is certainly seen in 'Atlas Shrugged' and in 'The Fountainhead' (except for the first time the protagonists got together, of course.) One last thing: I really wouldn't call *any* of Ayn Rand's works SF, even 'Anthym'. Maybe something more like 'speculative social fiction'. Jeff Sonntag ihnp4!mhuxt!js2j ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 25 Jun 1985 09:10:46-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: The End of Civilization as We Know It I have, in thinking of some of the books I have enjoyed over the last few years, realized there is a small sub-genre that I seem to enjoy. It is the one where civilization is zapped (or at least totally screwed up) by a non-alien occurrence. So far I have read Lucifer's Hammer, The Stand, and War Day. I am currently reading The Floating Dragon, and have enjoyed the first half of the book. Does anyone else enjoy this kind of Speculative Fiction? Brendan E. Boelke ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 21:55:41 pdt From: jon@cit-vax (Jonathan P. Leech) Subject: Book Request Someone was asking for the title of a book featuring time-belts. One book meeting the description is 'The Man Who Folded Himself' by (I think) David Gerrold. Jon Leech jon@cit-vax.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 25 Jun 85 21:11:43-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: Story Request The story about the Timebelt which allowed the wearer to travel in time sounds much like David Gerrold's The_Man_Who_Folded_Himself. Good luck trying to find it. I've seen two copies other than my own (which I got as a de-shelved book from our local library). I'm not sure if it ever came out in paperback (jayembee?). It is definitely, however, worth a bit of a search. Evan Kirshenbaum ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI UUCP: ...ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan ------------------------------ Date: 26 JUN 85 08:23-EST From: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Re: Story title request. >From: Nick Simicich >A friend of mine is looking for a book title. Perhaps you can >help: > >Thought I'd ask all you SciFi nuts about a book I've been trying to >(re)find for years. I could swear the word 'belt' or 'timebelt' >was used someplace in the title. The story is about a guy who got a >belt for his birthday from a relative. The belt is supposed to >allow him to travel in time.... Your friend needs a little education: the term is "skiffy". The book is _The_Man_Who_Folded_Himself_ by David Gerrold, originally published by Doubleday, and also distributed by the SFBC. I don't know who published it in paperback. Selden Ball BITNET: SEB@CRNLNS ARPA: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people for submitting same or similar information: Morris M. Keesan (keesan@bbncci) Rodney Hoffman (Hoffman.ES@Xerox) Bard Bloom (BARD@MIT-XX) Peter Alfke Alfke.PASA@Xerox Alan R. Katz (KATZ@USC-ISIF) Don Woods (Woods.pa@Xerox) Doug Monk (bro@rice) Henry Vogel (henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay) Andrew Sigel (sigel%umass-cs.csnet@csnet-relay) ] ------------------------------ From: decuac!avolio@topaz.arpa (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: Space 1999 & Startrek Date: 25 Jun 85 16:34:14 GMT > Also, how come they knew the name of every planet they visited? > Surely they wouldn't have had a name if no-one had been there > before. Well, I mean really... they don't have to be too clever to call a planet Rigel-12. (Like we'd be Sol-3.) Probably the folks on Rigel-12 called their planet something else, like Sid or something... ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Re: ST ban in Texas Date: 25 Jun 85 19:58:04 GMT > From: Dave Godwin > I don't believe that the ban is still in effect. I do not > recall all of the banned episodes specifically, but do recall > exactly that the episode 'Bread and Circuses', ... was banned > because the culture on this planet had parallels to both the > Romans, and to an underground christian culture based upon it's > own Christ figure. > The powers that be stepped on the episode, apparently > because Earth is the only planet in the cosmos God is looking out > for. No, the ban isn't still in effect. (or at least enforcement is very lax. :-) I saw "Bread and Circuses" on Austin's ABC affiliate just last week. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 01:20:18-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Life imitates Art. I am posting the following for an off-net friend of mine: Remember 'Shuttle Down' ? ***START OF QUOTE*** UPI SCIENCE NASA plans emergency landing site for space shuttle on Pacific isle By ANTHONY BOADLE SANTIAGO, Chile (UPI) _ When the space shuttle blasts off from California early next year, it will have the world's loneliest inhabited island as an emergency landing site if anything goes wrong on takeoff. The military government has approved U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration plans to extend the runway on Easter Island, a tiny volcanic island in the South Pacific, and President Augusto Pinochet is expected to give his approval soon. Military officials say the plan will bring Chile closer to the United States. But the project has come under fire from Chileans who fear it will damage the island's unique archaeological heritage. Critics claim the United States will turn the remote island into a strategically placed military base that could drag Chile into the forefront of superpower conflicts and make the country a sitting duck in a nuclear war. Easter Island, Chile's only Polynesian possession, located some 2,000 miles off the South American coast, is one of the world's most fantastic open-air museums. Massive stone heads carved out of volcanic stone by unknown sculptors many centuries ago dot the barely inhabited island. The mysterious 30-foot figures with long faces stand all around the windswept island, looking out to sea. "The NASA plan is absurd. It's like building a dance floor in the Natural History Museum," said Chilean historian Oscar Pinochet de la Barra, one of the critics of the space shuttle landing project. Opposition leaders, complaining that the country has not been fully informed about a project, which, they claim, will damage national sovereignty, have demanded a referendum to put the issue to the country. The United States plans to start launching space shuttles from Vandenberg Air Force Base in Southern California next March. Shuttles flying from Vandenberg will be able to fly in orbits that cross the poles. Shuttles launched from Cape Canaveral can only go into equatorial orbits. Polar orbits are required for weather and Earth resources satellites and for certain kinds of military reconnaissance spacecraft because a satellite flying over the poles overflies the entire globe periodically. The Vandenberg launches, planned at four a year, require an emergency landing site in the South Pacific in case of an engine failure, and Easter Island is ideally positioned. U.S. Embassy officials in Santiago said the NASA project involves lengthening the runway at Mataveri, the island's airport, by 1,420 feet to the 11,055 feet required for a shuttle landing and its eventual piggy-back retrieval by a Boeing 747. In addition, the latest microwave landing aid system must be installed, plus strong xenon landing lights, effectively upgrading the airport's facilities and increasing its security. The nearest alternative airport is located 1,000 miles away in Tahiti, officials said. NASA will foot the bill and has budgeted $11 million for the island project. The funds have already been requested from Congress. At no cost to Chile, embassy officials say, Easter Island will be decked out with the best equipment that any modern airport in the world has. The airstrip extension will allow wide-bodied planes to land there, thus boosting the tourist trade, they add. The embassy's science attache, Joel Cassman, dismissed charges of possible ecological damage and said earth movements will not extend beyond the airport's present perimeter. None of the mysterious stone figures will be affected. "It might never be used. There hasn't been a single emergency abort yet in the 18 space shuttle missions to date," Cassman said. "But the program requires having a landing site that can be used at a pinch." For shuttle launches over the Atlantic from Florida's Kennedy Space Center, NASA has permission to use Dakar International Airport in Senegal as an emergency landing site, with no inconvenience to commercial air traffic there. NASA also has emergency landing options in Spain, on Okinawa in the Pacific and in Hawaii. Fears voiced by Chilean critics that the mass influx of NASA technicians might hurt the Polynesian cultural traditions of Easter Island's 1,700 native inhabitants also appear to be unfounded. Cassman said the project will not involve any personnel stationed permanently on the island and only half a dozen technicians would be flown there for each shuttle launching. The unlikely event of an emergency landing would involve sending some 500 technicians to recover the shuttle and fly it home. ****END OF QUOTE**** posted for Danny Burstein by: Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 85 23:41:18 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Sturgeon's Law And let us grieve, not only that the man himself is no longer around to tell us the real story, but that he is no longer on this plane, period. My favourite quote of his is not the "law", but is really a symbol -- an upper-case Q with an arrow through it, meaning, "Ask the Next Question". Those of us who met him were given a great gift. The field of Fiction (all of it!) has been left a greater one. Leigh Ann ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 85 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #235 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 235 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & SF Magazines & Welsh Myths & Sherlock Holmes & Kirkham Wreck, Films - The Black Cauldron (2 msgs), Television - V & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (3 msgs) & The Meaning of Canonical ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 85 22:48 MST From: "Ronald B. Harvey" Subject: Re: Ford Prefect & SLaTfatF To: garfield!jeff1@TOPAZ.ARPA (Jeff Sparkes) A Ford Prefect is (or rather, was?) a model of car marketed by Ford for those people between the Atlantic and the North Sea who drive on the wrong side of the road. What has always bugged me about Ford's name is that Zaphod knew it right off... Of course, this can be explained away be using the excuse that the audience would get confused if Ford had two names. Then again, Tricia MacMillan (sp) had another name... Has anyone noticed any discrepancies between British and American versions of So Long and Thanks? I just received my Pan paper version of SLaTfatF, but I haven't previously read the American version. ------------------------------ From: watnot!bfeir@topaz.arpa (bfeir) Subject: Re: IASFM Date: 25 Jun 85 22:34:49 GMT > I really would like to keep up more with what's going on, and I'm > on the verge of getting a subscription. Does anyone out there > have any opinions on the magazine? Yes, I have an opinion. IASFM is a fairly good magazine if you like SF stories. Often they have previews of stories yet to be published, and occasionally they have a story by the good Doctor himself. There is also a puzzle page written by Martin Gardiner (of Scientific American fame) and a good set of reviews. Well worth subscribing to. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@topaz.arpa (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: Hawk of May and trilogy Date: 25 Jun 85 01:01:30 GMT jmellby%ti-eg.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa writes: >They take liberties with the mythos by creating Gwalchmai, the >brother of Agravain, son of Lot, who becomes Arthur's best knight. Wait a minute! This Gwalchmai (The Eagle) also is the hero of H. Warner Munn's books, "Merlin's Godson" and "Merlin's Ring", except that in these, he's not only Merlin's Godson, he's the son of a Roman centurion who sailed west with Merlin, and wasn't even born when Arthur was doing his bit! You must agree that the name is a bit unusual, so where are these authors doing their research?? I'd like to know where they got the name from, to produce two so completely different people from the same name in the same set of mythos. R. Ramsay ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Wed, 26 Jun 85 08:36:16 PDT Subject: Sherlock Holmes stories >After all, if you go and look in your bookstore again, you will >find millions and millions of Sherlock Holmes stories not written >by Arthur Canon Doyle. . . Arthur Conan Doyle did not write any Sherlock Holmes stories. Doyle was a charlatan who tricked Dr. Watson and published the accounts of Holmes' cases under his own name. But SF-Lovers is not the proper venue for that discussion. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #228 Date: 26 Jun 85 18:10:31 GMT >From: Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA > "The Morphology of the Kirkham Wreck", by {someone whose name I >can't remember -- but the story has recently been mentioned in this >digest} is such a story. > >it's a really excellent story. You can find it in "Best SF of the >Year #9" edited by Terry Carr. The story can also be found in _Wave Rider_, a collection of short stories by the same author. I can't remember the author's name either (George R.R. Martin sticks in my mind, but the book's at home). All the stories are excellent reading. The general theme of the book is man/woman and the sea. ------------------------------ From: watnot!bfeir@topaz.arpa (bfeir) Subject: Re: The Black Cauldron Date: 25 Jun 85 23:46:52 GMT > From: Peter G. Trei > I dont claim to have specific knowledge of where Disney's > writers are getting their plot, but to automatically assume that > The Black Cauldron derives from Lloyd Alexanders' work is a little > like saying that an earlier Disney opus 'The Sword in the Stone' > is based on the film 'Camelot'. Actually, you are dead wrong. Disney has shown a short preview of the show on one of their weekly shows. This was about 6 months ago, and at that time they only had the rough drawings, so it wasn't much of a show. But even so, it was definitely the adventures of Taran. It _is_ based on the set of books by Lloyd Alexander, albeit it does not follow them exactly; what movie does? ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: The Black Cauldron Date: 27 Jun 85 02:37:33 GMT By the way, the Lloyd Alexander books have been reissued (probably due to the movie tie-in). In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 1985 09:53:39-EDT From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: What an advanced race would come far to get... > From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) > There's only one commodity a highly advanced race would travel > light-years to take by force, and that's slaves. It certainly > isn't water. I have to disagree. 1) If you're running out of water, and you don't have the resources to reclaim it or manufacture it, then you've only one option open to you: go get some more! And believe me, you'll go whatever distance it takes to get it! 2) Are slaves even very valuable to "a highly advanced race"? I mean, at some point machine labor becomes cheaper and more efficient than human labor; once a race has passed this point, human slaves have little value. But I guess one could argue that the above refers only to physical labor, and thus human slaves might still have value for other types of labor. (What a nightmare: aliens kidnap the entire human race and make accountants of us all!) But I agree with your suggestions about improving "V." I too was disappointed when the visitors turned out to be reptiles come to eat us -- how corny! Making them human-relatives come to make us slaves would have been much less ridiculous, and much more interesting. Regards, -- Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 12:02:59-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #231 > The "one to the 35th power" line is from "Court Martial," and is > uttered by Spock. He's not under duress; he's explaining how much > he has turned up the gain on an audio sensor, so as to detect the > heartbeat of...well, any more would be a spoiler. > > Was actually 1 to the 1,000,000 power, and was spoken by Kirk in > the episode Courtmartial. Since Kirk is somewhat distraught at > the time, his slip is understandable. (-8 NO! It was actually spoken by Uhura, in Court Martial. Not only was she distraught at the time, she was possessed by an alien from Andromeda -- one not especially good at mathematics, either. 8-) Surely *someone* has that Star Trek book. (I don't think there's one in Boston, though...) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 85 10:35:53 PDT (Wednesday) From: Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: The Latest Problems of SF To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS.ARPA Davis Tucker writes: > Why is it that this freedom of themes, this wealth of subject > material, is not present in science fiction? When was the last > time you read a real-life, honest-to-god science fiction tragedy? > Why is it that nobody has written a truly great *love story* in > science fiction? Where is the human failure, the small glories, > the defeats of growing old, the joy in childhood, the pain of > growing aware, the acceptance that we all must come to in time, > the heartache, the anguish, the ecstasy? Come on now, don't tell me this kind of stuff is "not present". Haven't you ever read any Harlan Ellison? Almost everything he's ever written concerns these human traits, and I think he treats them very well. Philip Dick's works, also, are mostly about these "defeats...pain...acceptance...heartache...anguish"; he also quite often brings in self-discovery, alienation, and insanity. > It would be far better if more authors of science fiction showed > as much passion and interest in their characters' lives as they do > in their "universes" and scientific extrapolation. Ellison and Dick both do so; John Varley cares deeply about his characters while still maintaining his universes and extrapolation. Bester's "The Demolished Man", which you mentioned, also creates some very intriguing and realistic characters. I agree with a lot of what you're saying; for any authors like those I've mentioned there are a dozen James P. Hogans. You shouldn't, however, be so absolute. Don't say that NO sf writers use modern themes, fleshed-out characters, etc: this is obviously wrong. Why not say that FEW sf writers do? When you use absolutes your points are lost on me because I immediately disagree and start looking for counterexamples. If we're going to go back to the argument about "what is mainstream literature, anyway", I would suspect that the proportional amounts of thematic drought in sf and mainstream fiction (by which I mean everything that shows up in the straight "Fiction" section of the bookstore) are approximately equal. I will not stoop to a thematic analysis of Jackie Collins or Robert Ludlum short of opining that I will take "Footfall" over "Hollywood Wives" with no reservations. It seems to me that sf (and fantasy) usually present more interesting settings and backgrounds than does mainstream fiction. Granted, the world of Philadelphia cops or Russian newt farmers may be fascinating, but there's a "sense of wonder" to sf worlds that can (if done well) partially make up for deficiencies in theme and characterization. > Well, that's just one man's opinion. Same here. --Peter Alfke alfke.pasa@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Jun 1985 15:06:59 EDT From: Subject: The Problems of Science Fiction Today THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART VII has finally prompted me to put in my two-cent's worth. In this essay, I believe that Davis Tucker captures the *essential* element which sets Literature off from *most* SF and other genre entertainments; serious and authentic treatment of the protagonists' emotional lives. While the desire for self-realization may be a nearly inevitable theme for fiction, in SF this often takes particularly exotic and grandiose forms, and it usually results from some outside agency, rather than the hero's or heroine's coming to better terms with his or her *inner reality*. The general popularity of this genre over the last decade may reflect cultural changes which place more value on individual competence and achievement ("excellence"). I hypothesize that the rare and unusual nature of the transformed protagonist makes SF very appealing to people who have put a lot of effort into esoteric scientific and technical specialties. Their disdain for a full development of emotional issues in fiction may arise from a life experience which hasn't emphasized the value of their expression and exploration. I think I hear echoes of this attitude in the negative reactions to the "Thomas Covenant" series which have been expressed in the Digest. Personal growth over the past year has led me to acknowledge that my affinity for both science and SF has been, in part, a game I've played to avoid dealing with my feelings. Despite this "self-realization", I still feel that both enterprises are valuable, and I do not reject either one. However, I am concerned that an intensive involvement with these glamorous myths (e.g. Star Wars) is preventing many "fans" from directing their efforts to achieve self- realization in real life. I would urge readers who feel threatened by the recent wave of criticism to examine their reactions in the light of these observations. "Ray of Hope Department" - I was very impressed with David Brin's "SunDiver" as a story which dealt with a character's emotional life and inner growth. Any novel which can handle these issues *along* with fascinating hard science and sociological extrapolation is a real winner, in my eyes. Comments, anyone? Karl Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL.ARPA) ------------------------------ Subject: Criticism of SF Date: 26 Jun 85 15:38:59 EDT (Wed) From: jdecarlo@mitre.ARPA I think this whole issue has gotten out of hand, so I'm willing to put in by two cents worth to further muddy the waters. First, ever since this started, I have been racking my brains trying to remember a quote in a literature class (Comedy and the Novel) about the relationship between an author, a novel, and a reader. I believe it went something like this. The author (composer?) writes a novel (music work?) with an idea of how it should be read (performed?). However, the reader (performer? violin? both?) reads (performs?) the novel in his/her own way (depending on whether he/she is skilled, has practiced, knows the music well, etc.). The implication being that there has to be work at both ends, writer and reader. How much work depends on the type of work involved. Another implication is that some works of music are written for a violin, and if you try to play it on a flute it won't sound the same. (Any people know what it is I am fumbling about here? If so, I would appreciate knowing who said it and the context in which it was said. Thanks.) John "Now what was that he said?" DeCarlo ------------------------------ Subject: Canonical ? Date: 26 Jun 85 15:15:08 EDT (Wed) From: jdecarlo@mitre.ARPA Jay Johannes writes: >Hold on just a second, here. I have been reading over the list and >am wondering if everybody knows what "canonical" means? Webster >gives definitions of orthodox and simplest form. I take the word in >context to mean that the author wanted those stories that have set >the standards for the current state of science fiction. That is, >those stories that have broken new ground in either plot or style. My response is "hold on just a second yourself!" First of all, let me cite my Random House dictionary definition of canonical: "authorized; recognized; accepted" i.e., the list is supposed to cover SF novels that are widely recognized and accepted as (at least) good SF (whatever that means). This is, presumably, as opposed to someone just picking out their favorite books and calling it The Nth Best Books. If a *whole bunch* of people respond with *their* favorites, those with a *lot* of votes might well have a basis for being called "recognized; accepted" or "canonical". Secondly, since when does orthodox and simplest form imply setting new standards or breaking new ground? To me it implies just the opposite. Thirdly, I agree that recent novels are much less likely to be recognized as canonical because they haven't been around long enough to qualify. Fourthly, could anything coming from readers on this net *ever* be considered canonical? Would anyone *want* it to be so? John "why is he so picky?" DeCarlo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Jun 85 0946-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #236 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 236 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson (2 msgs) & King & The Oz Books (4 msgs), Television - Star Trek & Space:1999 & Fixing TV Shows, Miscellaneous - Controlling Time (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hadron!klr@topaz.arpa (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Re: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From Date: 26 Jun 85 03:36:10 GMT One of the problems with the _Chronicles_of_Thomas_Covenant_ is that Donaldson takes forever to develop his characters. By the end of the second of the 6 books, we are beginning to see what makes Thomas Covenant tick. Another problems is the foundation of the books itself. It is difficult to get the reader to "beleive" what he/she is reading, when the main character in the book refuses to beleive that it is real. The time dilation are a bit much to handle, the mechanic of bringing back dead characters, all are contrivances that take a while to swallow. I waded through all 6 books. I actually looked forward to each one coming out. I also see that there could be more. ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Donaldson/Covenant --Another Opinion Heard From Date: 25 Jun 85 17:38:52 GMT ddern@bbncch writes: > o Said protagonist (and perhaps others -- memory blissfully dims) > had a remarkable and off-putting propensity for obscure, dumb > ephithets. "Helleshin!" comes to mind. What ever happened to > "By the crimson bands of Cyttorak", etc? [ Yes, I know -- this > is actually one of Dr. Strange's shellscripts ] I thought the "helleshin" thing was pretty interesting -- wasn't that used in the Cities In Flight books? As a curse of vegan origin? Does it have any meaning in English, so was it just a word the Donaldson picked up? Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 26 Jun 1985 09:56:25-PDT From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: "ROADWORK" by BACHMAN/KING Review of "ROADWORK" by Richard Bachman/Stephen King. "ROADWORK" is the worst (in my opinion) of the 'Bachman' books. It's not that the book is terrible, it's just slow and it really doesn't end the way I would have thought. The story is about a worker at the towns big laundry, who because of a new freeway is having to move out of his house. "ROADWORK" follows the main character in his fight against the 'CITY'. This book is like "RAGE" in that the main character has mental problems, the best thing about the book is the sections where we follow this man's trip away from sanity. Along the way our 'hero' loses his wife, his mind, discovers drugs and many other things I won't list here. This is not an upbeat story ! A lot of times I found myself thinking why is this guy being so stupid, a lot of the bad things that happen to this guy are his own fault. I liked the book, but it's just not up to King's normal standard. I give it a 6 out of 10. In "ROADWORK" there is an pressure ironing/pressing machine that the employees of the laundry call 'THE MANGLER', when I read this I couldn't help but think about "NIGHT SHIFT". I wouldn't put this on any must read lists, but, if you're a KING fan like myself it's worth the time. And, since this will be in the 4-in-1 omnibus edition, you'll have it anyway if you want to read the others. Ken Cobb ------------------------------ Date: Thu 27 Jun 85 00:12:34-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Oz > Baum, who was called the Royal Historian of Oz, wrote 14 Oz books: > > 1. The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (reissued as The Wizard of Oz)... > 40. Merry Go Round in Oz Thank you for excluding P.J. Farmer's _A_Barnstormer_In_Oz_, which strongly does not deserve to be in the Oz canon. On one talon, Farmer based his book on the premise that _The_Wizard_of_Oz_ was approximately true, but that all the rest of the books were stories made up by Baum and Thompson and so on. Then he made it SF, badly, and a generic Philip Jose Farmer violence-and-sex story. (Flame repellant: It's been a while since I read it, and after I found out what Farmer intended I didn't read very carefully. Too, my impressions of lust and blood may have been heightened, because I didn't expect or want to find either one in an Oz book. *Some* things should be sacred... ) Anyone want to send Farmer some water from the Forbidden Fountain? (Spoiler! But you know nothing bad will happen anyways...) But then, when I reread some of the Baum books recently, I found them bloodier than I remembered. In _Ozma_of_Oz_, Dorothy turns a lot of Nomes into eggs (-8 O.K., yolkier rather than bloodier 8-). In _Emerald_City_Of_Oz_, Ozma and the Scarecrow trick a horde of Nomes, Whimsies, Phanfasms, and Growleywogs into drinking some water of Oblivion, obliterating their memories and personality. O.K., no-one died from these spells, but what's the practical difference between those fates and death? (Answer: ten-year-olds can't see that there is no practical difference.) And I can see why Farmer wanted to do a more realistic Oz. Ozma was acting rather stupid: virtually ignoring a massive invasion of Oz, not thinking about it until the evening before. Their council of war (not-war, really) was impressively frustrating. Any fantasy gamer would have had a dozen suggestions, like filling in the tunnel by the power of the Magic Belt (which she did *after* the invasion). I'd like to see some more Oz books, keeping the charm and inventiveness of the originals, with better-for-nominal-adults characterization. (That was never the point of the originals, of course.) Maybe it's possible. Bard ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@topaz.arpa (Rick Heli) Subject: Re: Oz books Date: 25 Jun 85 17:27:07 GMT Has anyone ever heard of an analysis of the Oz books in which everything has political meaning? Supposedly the scarecrow represents farming interests, the tin man big industry which lacks a heart, etc. I saw a short newspaper article on it once long ago and have never been able to find the idea further expanded. --rick heli (... ucbvax!ucdavis!groucho!ccrrick) ------------------------------ From: dcc1!unixcorn@topaz.arpa (math.c) Subject: Re: Oz books Date: 25 Jun 85 20:40:17 GMT geacc022%timevx@cit-hamlet.arpa writes: >> Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton >> bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most >> were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and >> published under Baum's name. > My understanding was that L. Frank Baum wrote the original 14 >books, which were recently republished by Del Rey, and that others >wrote more books after he died under their own names. I have >heard, but don't know for sure, that Del Rey is planning on >republishing some of the books written by Ruth Plumly Stapleton >(sp?). When L.Frank Baum died in 1919, Reilly and Lee (the publishers of his books) decided to find another author who could continue the one book a year cycle that was so profitable for them. Ruth Plumly Thompson fit the bill perfectly, she had grown up on the OZ books, was already an author of childrens books and she needed the money to support her mother and invalid sister. The first book she wrote was published under Baum's and her name (to promote continuity) but was all her own work. Later they used the phrase Founded on and Continuing the Famous OZ Stories by L. Frank Baum. She wrote 19 books in the series (5 more than Baum) Other OZ authors include John R. Neill (long time illustrator of OZ books) Jack Snow Rachel R. Cosgrove Eloise Jarvis McGraw and Lauren McGraw Wagner Anyone out there have a copy of 'The Royal Book of OZ' they are interested in selling? I have a spare copy of the 'Hungry Tiger' to trade. unixcorn (alias m. gould) ------------------------------ To: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.arpa (Wherever you go, there you are.) Subject: Re: The Oz canon and the film Date: 27 Jun 85 02:30:22 PDT (Thu) From: Jerry Sweet Book 41: a few months ago, I saw a book named "A Barnstormer In Oz", by Philip Jose Farmer (I think--it sounds right, since he's the self-appointed chronicler/perpetuator of a number of "mythologies"). Anyone read it? -jns ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!appatel@topaz.arpa (ZNAC343) Subject: Re:STAR TREK Date: 26 Jun 85 02:28:13 GMT david@dcl-cs.UUCP (David Coffield) writes: >Someone recently noted that the replacement of Eagle landers on >Space 1999 was not possible due to the fact that the base had very >finite resources. He also noted that the Enterprise could easily >pop in to a starbase for repairs. What puzzles me is that the 5 >year mission of the Enterprise was "to boldy go .." etc and >therefore there shouldn't be a starbase in sight if they were >chartering unknown territory. Also, how come they knew the name of >every planet they visited? Surely they wouldn't have had a name if >no-one had been there before. The 5 year mission refered to above is the length of the tour of duty of the Enterprise.The Enterprise was assigned a quadrant to patrol and explore as not all planets and star systems had been explored in Federation space.So when the Enterprise was not on a StarFleet assigned mission (eg:"A Taste Of Armagedon", "The Enterprise Incident","The Trouble With Tribbles") then its prime task was to explore and chart star systems that had not been visted before.(Remember that the galaxy has about 100,000 million stars, and if say federation space only covers 10%, then thats about 10,000 million stars to be explored and charted). Therefore even when in federation space they would be boldly chartering unknown territory and still be near a starbase (I think there were about 20 of them). The reason that they knew the name of every planet that they came to was that either the planet was a member of the federation or that the planet's name was derived from the names of the star and the position of the planet from the star,(Earth is SOL 3).If you look at a good star catalogue you will find that there are a lot of stars in it with name that were mentioned in Star Trek. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Space 1999 Date: 26 Jun 85 09:34:39 GMT john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) writes: >Captain Garth was only shown changing into human or human-like >sentient forms. This is the distinction between him and Maya. Maya >was shown changing into everything from very non-human aliens to an >orange tree. She could also change into beings of equally varying >sizes. As others have pointed out in this group, where does the >excess energy go when she turns into a fly? By avoiding such >drastic form changes, Garth is a much more plausible character. Not that much more plausible! Once you've made the leap of accepting shape changing (with liberal applications of pseudo-science) dissipation of mass is not that difficult to explain away. All you need is the explanation, I prefer the previous one about projecting herself (Maya) into a fourth spacial dimension and reforming herself to a pattern in a similar way to the Enterprise's transporters. Any extra energy required being freely available in this dimension. If you like this problem... What happens to the energy produced from a body that has been hit by a phaser on disintegrate? It must go somewhere. Should we treat 'disintegrate' as meaning 'vapourize' ? (This assumes that disintegrate converts mass into energy). If a show was absolutely scientifically correct then it surely must lose some of its appeal as science FICTION and become more of an educational program. No travelling back in time or going faster than light would be allowed so the show could be so limited that it would soon bore people out of watching it. It is good that after nine years 1999 is still being discussed. It has attracted enough discussion and criticism to warrant a net on its own or with other G.A. productions. This sounds much like net.tv does it not? (Take a look to see what I mean). Andy T. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: a gauntlet accepted: fixes to 1999, BadActica Date: 26 Jun 85 08:53:13 GMT A better fix for 1999 would to have stationed the base as being on the Space Dock (one of the things blown up in BREAKAWAY). This could have had a plot generating device fitted . Unfortunately the basic storyline , being totally uncontrolable drifting through space would have needed to be different. I liked it as it was. Anything smaller than a planetary body would have been easily controlled. Star Trek's basic attraction was the opposite, being totally in control and zooming about the galaxy, which the fixes thus proposed on 1999 would have achieved. Chocolatebar Galaxitive needed more alien aliens, as did every tv sci-fi show to date. Seriously can all aliens be expected to speak English ,(with an American or English accent?). The last series where they found Earth was much worse than 1999. A previous article proposed that 1999 was only being defended over in Britain simply because it was British, possibly, but I only defend things that I personaly like and I haven't liked anything from America since Star Trek. A lot of people I know like Badactica but none of them like the series of V. Buck Rogers was another series that deteriorated quickly, but not to the extent of Badactica which seemed to use a library plot routine as most of the cop series do. Barbara Bain's acting ability has been questioned. Yes she can act when given a reasonable script and she regularly had facial expressions in 1999 (e.g. when screaming in DEATHS OTHER DOMINION). More answers to any points raised will follow... Andy T. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 85 07:08 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: re: controlling time "The Girl, The Gold Watch, and Everything" by John D. MacDonald deals with a watch that can stop time for all but the person holding it. Not exactly controlling time (the holder cannot speed it up or make it run very slowly), but halting it at will isn't all that shabby. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz.arpa (Herb Chong [DCS]) Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time Date: 25 Jun 85 14:16:55 GMT res@ihuxn.UUCP (Rich Strebendt) writes: >>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about >>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel >>(controlling your local time)? > >A classic along these lines is "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and >Everything" or something close to this (my library is at home, >though there are days I wish I kept it at my office !!!). There >was a movie by the same name that was a fairly decent rendition of >the book. there was a sequel to the movie too, with some appropriate title that escapes me. i watched them both at different times in the past year when i wanted to turn my brain off for a while. having never read the book, i will have to take you word that it was reasonable accurate. Herb Chong... UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde} !watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jun 85 1015-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #237 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 28 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 237 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Footfall & The Flying Sorceror, Miscellaneous - Spoilers & The Problems of SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Jun 85 18:10:27 EDT From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: _DOWNTIMING_THE_NIGHTSIDE_ and Subject: _VENGEANCE_OF_THE_DANCING_GODS_ by Jack Chalker Until recently, I was a great fan of Chalker. I had read the WELL OF SOULS series, AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER, and his DANCING GODS books. These three sets contain quite interesting and distinct (though similar) ideas, and I thought he was the greatest thing since buttered toast. I have since read most of his other works, and with the advent of DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE I have become quite disheartened at the quality of some of his novels. ***** MILD SPOILER ***** The WELL OF SOULS books brought forth many interesting ideas and plot structures, which Chalker has since rehashed in almost all of his other books. It is understandable for a writer to use the same theories on the universe, etc. in his other stories, but Chalker reuses *plots*! In many of his stories (EXILES AT THE WELL OF SOULS, SOUL RIDER: EMPIRES OF FLUX AND ANCHOR, DANCERS IN THE AFTERGLOW, A WAR OF SHADOWS, and DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE) a previously strong, likable female character is transformed into some weird sort of mutant sex-creature for no adequately explored reason. In one or two books, such a thing would be no problem, but five times seems a little ridiculous. Though in DOWNTIMING he does not deal with any "Primal Equations" (his most excessively reused idea), Chalker still came up with what I think is a very bad theory of Time (perhaps I am biased; I think all theories of time pale before the one in Hogan's THRICE UPON A TIME). It goes something like this: there is an actual "present" and "past" but the future hasn't happened yet. The past may be altered, but the World will readjust upon the lines of least resistance, so the relative future comes out as close to the same as possible (said one of the characters: "Change something big, and you end up with what you started with, but worse."). The difference in this theory is that when you go into the past, Nature assimilates you. This means that you are caused to fit in. The Universe alters you physically, and shifts the past so that you were, in fact, born in that era. Your mind, too, is assimilated, but this takes about two weeks, giving you a chance to escape. Because of this assimilation, it is perfectly legal to go back in time and kill your own father so that you were never born. The person who actually killed your father was not *you*, it was the person you were assimilated to be; they had a birth and life history themselves, so there was no paradox when the person who had "become" them was never born. In order that as little as possible is changed, Downtimers usually wind up as low on the social scale as possible (women, children, or handicapped, usually). (One Unforgivable Sin: One of the characters asked why it was impossible to go back in time to a point *after* your own birth. The Answer: Basic Physics! You can't exist twice in the same place. I find it hard to believe that anyone would answer a question about *TIME TRAVEL* of all things with "Basic Physics," especially since it doesn't answer the question at all. The atoms which make up your body have been around since the dawn of time, so this "Basic Physics" disallows *all* time travel! Flame off.) What I at first thought was an incredible plot was this: The Main Character was rescued by a strange woman in an era some time before his birth. They met again farther back in time and were married and had some kids. The man went forward in time and became a woman (due to Time Assimilation). S/he then went back in time and married the man (him/herself). Then after having kids, etc. the woman went forward in time and rescued the man, thus completing the double-interlaced loop. This would have been the most incredible thing ever, had it not already been done! Id est, ALL YOU ZOMBIES by Heinlein, 1959. The main plot of DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE is a fairly standard one, that of a "Time War," (the two sides are trying to cause each other to never have existed). This story has some interesting points (such as the "possibles" presented when a Downtimer accidentally kills Karl Marx *twice*, (the second "before" the first)), but it is far from Chalker's best, and gets quite depressing. Avoidance is suggested. ***** SPOILER OFF ***** However, just when I had decided that Chalker was a Traitor to the Faith, VENGEANCE OF THE DANCING GODS was released. This book is truly awesome, and (in my eyes) has justified whatever else he has done wrong. VENGEANCE is the third book in the series, the first two being RIVER OF THE DANCING GODS and DEMONS OF THE DANCING GODS. ***** SPOILER WARNING (again) ***** For those of you unfamiliar with the series, it goes like this: In the first book, a wizard from another world (Throckmorton P. Ruddygore) mighty magical sword Irving) and Marge of the Faerie (wings and all). Husaquahr, the world in to which they are cast, is a strange one indeed. It is filled with the Faerie and other creatures of myth and legend. Magic runs rampant. In the Beginning, when Husaquahr was created, it was very raw; there were few natural laws, so the great wizards got together to set down some more rules. At first, these were very basic, such as restrictions on magical power, etc. but they eventually got out of hand. The books of Rules came to comprise several thousand volumes of laws such as "A Company shall be composed of no less than seven individuals, at least one of whom should not be completely trusted. --XXXIV, 363, 244(a)" and "A percentage of all seats of magic shall be dark towers, said percentage to be not less than twenty percent of all such seats of power at any given time. Practitioners of the Black Arts shall be given preference for these locations. --IV, 203(b) & (c)" These rules are not just decrees; they are actual laws of nature. Barbarians cannot help going scantily clad in furs, and the Evil cannot help leaving the Virtuous an opening, however tenuous, in their fiendish plots. VENGEANCE OF THE DANCING GODS ("All epics must be at least trilogies. --XVI, 103, 12(d)) deals with the return of an Old Enemy. Esmillo Boquillas, an evil wizard, had been stripped of his powers and exiled to Earth where he would be harmless. He wasn't. Though he could not cast spells to make trouble, he could develop them and have others with the Talent cast them for him. When his ex-apprentice found a way to Earth, Ruddygore knew there would be trouble. The spells that Boquillas developed were quite formidable, for rather than painstakingly calculating all of the variables and side-effects by hand, he created them with a computer. In his first several months on Earth, Boquillas learned as much as he could about computers, because he realized their potential, and that "Today's machines don't come with WizardCalc." He was exceptionally good with the machines because, for all its mystery, Magic is only mathematics. And Boquillas was a *very* good wizard. Joe, Marge, and some of their allies were sent to Earth to assassinate Boquillas before he grew too powerful (he had already become a TV Evangelist). Among their companions was a mermaid, who was normally useless on land, but... Ruddygore cast a spell on her which was inspired by a film he had seen while on vacation in Chicago: while dry, she had legs. A Masterstroke! Once on Earth, the company was joined by a Tinkerbellish Pixie from Brooklyn and a depressed ex-exorcist, and eventually (punfully) saved both worlds from Armageddon. ***** SPOILER OFF ***** The DANCING GODS books are the third most amusing series I have ever read (the first two being the HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE and MYTH ADVENTURES), and I highly recommend them. Chalker is quite obviously capable of writing excellent books, so things like DOWNTIMING and A WAR OF SHADOWS are hard to understand. But I guess it is not uncommon for authors to become fixated on certain plots or situations (viz: Heinlein's Capable Man, and Asimov's robots (*what* were they doing in FOUNDATION'S EDGE?!?)). Despite a few dogs, most of Chalker's book are very good, if similar. He just needs to expand a little from his previously covered topics. --Jamie jwz@cmu-cs-spice ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 12:57:32-PDT From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon Subject: Footfall's Travel Fithp The _Footfall_ aliens could very well have made what seem to us to be ignorant assumptions, such as assuming that we come in herd as they do. Is this going to be a mini-spoiler? They did not evolve their own science (either physical or social). Rather, they "inherited" it (more details, more spoiler?) from another race. They did not really understand it as well as if they had developed it themselves. Andy Gideon of the Hacker Fithp Gideon@SU-Score.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 12:57:32-PDT From: Andrew "VaxBuster" Gideon Subject: Footfall's Travel Fithp A while back, this group was working on putting together a list of the names used in _The_Flying_Sorcerers_. Perhaps it is my own ignorance, but I could not figure out a few of the Dreamer Fithp members. In fact, the only ones I was SURE of were Robert and Virginia. (I could guess "Speaker to Seafood", I think). What about it? Help? Andy Gideon of the Hacker Fithp Gideon@SU-Score.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 85 09:42 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Spoilers and Simple Courtesy It seems that the concensus is in. Some people hate to know the ending, and some people don't mind. This seems to present a simple solution, if you are going to tell the plot then please include a warning ("spoiler" seems as good a name as any, as long as it is understood). If you don't mind reading a "spoiler" then you are free to read it, but if you do not like to read "spoilers" then you are free to skip it. I believe no one's rights are infringed, and all should be happy. The only person who can really gripe is the one who doesn't want to put a spoiler warning on because it will wear out their poor little fingers. So what's the problem? It seems to be merely common courtesy. Perhaps we on this list can revitalize an ailing trait. Please? ------------------------------ Date: Wed 26 Jun 85 18:21:48-EDT From: Thomas De Bellis Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #230 To: druri!dht@TOPAZ.ARPA Dear Davis, I have followed your `Problems of Science Fiction Today' with some interest. Recently however, you said something that surprised me and I would be interested if you elaborated on it some more. Here is your phrase: ` But let us return to modern novel, starting with "Don Quixote De La Mancha" and Dante's "Inferno", "Purgatorio", and "Paradiso". ' I have been a student of Italian at Columbia University for the past five years and a student of Spanish for the past three; I feel uncomfortable about drawing such parallels between the two works. Consider the following facts: the date of the composition of `Don Quixote de la Mancha' can be said to occur somewhere between roughly 1606 and 1615. The composition of the Divine Comedy can easily be placed at at least 300 years before that. It is also easy to find historical precedents for ideas in the Divine Comedy in previous works by the author such as `La Vita Nuova' which dates from before the turn of the century. Specifically, I refer to the idea of `La Donna Angelica'. While I might agree with that Don Quixote could be viewed as a precursor to the modern novel, I don't think that the Divine Comedy can be seen as such. The work is an epic poem, the story of a journey in the tradition of the Odyssey or the Aeneid. Perhaps if you have read it in translation, this may have escaped you, but in Italian it is a poem (and one of the most beautiful ever written, I might add). I can't see it as a modern novel any more than I can see the Odyssey or the Aeneid as a modern novel. It does not in any way grapple with the modern world. It explains the medieval and parts of the classical world in terms of Catholic dogma. Certainly, some liberties are taken (most notably with the devils who take people's souls before they are dead in the fifth Malebolge), but the work can not be seen to have a `thematic leap into the modern world of shades of grey, existentialism, its willingness to grapple with insanity and hatred and love and lust from the inside, not the surface.' Things are very black and white for Dante. Either you are damned or you're saved. If you are damned, you're damned, pure and simple. The fact that he sheds many a tear in the Inferno for damned souls (the example of Paulo and Francesca comes to mind) is used to underline the fact that Dante himself is not saved since the blessed can not feel remorse for the fate of the damned. It is in no way indicative of a `modern world state of grey', it is indicative of a fault of Dante that still remains to be purged. Likewise, if you are saved, then you're saved. You may have to wait a long time in Purgatory to get into Paradise, but you are still saved. Consider the green angels from Mary that come and guard the penitent souls in the first part of Purgatory. They may have been purging themselves, but they were still saved. What the characters in the three canticles say and do is largely used to allegorically underline their state of being saved or not. Why they are saved or not is purely God's decision; man is not permitted to know. Thus, their characters are never really developed and this explains the transitory nature of most of the encounters with souls. As far as wealth of themes goes, that's shaky ground. Certainly the Divine Comedy contains much original material, but a good portion of what Dante wrote can be directly traced to Virgil. Virgil is more than just his fictitious guide; parts of the Divine Comedy are right out of the Aeneid. A perfect example of this is the thirteenth canto of the Inferno where Dante breaks a branch of a bush to speak to a soul inside. This is obviously taken from Aeneid III, 22-48 in several respects. Other parts are based on older classical writers, such as Ovid. It seems to me that if you want to talk about the modern novel, a better selection might have been something by Boccaccio. There, at least, you don't have direct references to epic traditions. The Decameron still suffers from lack of character development, however so perhaps it's better to wait a couple of hundred years for some of Machiavelli's work. Better still might be Manzoni's `I Promessi Spossi', but I suspect that would be too late for the purposes of your argument. So... Please elaborate more on what you mean by the Divine Comedy being an example of a modern novel. I had always thought that the work was more of a late epic poem. I have read a lot of commentary about the Divine Comedy but I don't remember ever having read that. Then again, in the literature business, one should always be on the look out for new ways of looking at things. Hence, (good) science fiction. -- Tom ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jun 85 1105-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #239 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 29 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 239 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson & SF Poll, Television - Battlestar Galactica, Miscellaneous - Quotations: Sturgeon and Others ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: garfield!jeff1@topaz.arpa (Jeff Sparkes) Subject: Re: Wounded Land series Date: 26 Jun 85 18:38:38 GMT The name of the book is "Daughter of Regals". Donaldson says that some of the stories were written after the First Chronicles, and the rest after the Second. There is also a section that was cut out of the Illearth War. It tells the story of the mission to Seareach by Korik, Hyrim and Shetra. Apparently it was left out because it was told from Korik's point of view and this tended to support the belief that The Land was real. I haven't finished the book yet, but so far it's been good. Except for the Covenant excerpt, it hasn't been overly verbose. (Thank god!!) It's worth picking up in paperback. Jeff Sparkes garfield!jeff1 ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: SF Poll. Some SoapBoxing. "Best" 260 books. Heinlein Tops (so Subject: far) Date: 24 Jun 85 10:17:41 GMT Hello. I've been running the Poll for about a month now and i've received a few (mostly mild) private flames and one (also mild) public flame about various aspects of it. I'd like to respond to my critics if i may. First, it was recently stated that i used the word "Canonical" in the sense of "innovative" and, further, that few of the books on the updates that i have posted so far are in fact innovative. I quote: >I take the word in context to mean that the author wanted those >stories that have set the standards for the current state of >science fiction. That is, those stories that have broken new ground >in either plot or style. > (Jay Johannes) That this was not my intention is evident from my first posting: >What i propose is an update to bring the Canon up to date. Please >send me **mail** if you have a group of books to recommend; i shall >collate the books with the highest number of votes and from my second: >this is supposed to be a "canonical" list, that is a list which >contains books which an appreciable subset of you out there think >*SHOULD* be read). The reason why they should be read is immaterial >- excellent story, first use of some interesting idea, creator of a >sub-genre, superlative writing, etc. Ideally a canonical list of SF >books should contain all books which are in "most" people's >collection (or memory for that matter). I think that this is the only reasonable way to construct such a list - especially in this news group! - i'll return to this point later. The second point was a variation of the first with an added value judgment. The following quote (it was private mail so i'll leave it anonymous) is fairly representative of that point of view: >i think the problem with your list is right there in your last >message: only 40 people responding, yet 500 books recommended. >when you get that many, you're talking about a favorite book list, >not a "canonical" books list. i think hogans books are great, for >example, but i'd never consider mentioning them as important works >of SF. i see maybe one or two books in your list that i'd consider >required reading. i see a lot more that are complete trash and >worth avoiding. (funny about the suggestion for negative votes: >the exact same though came to me: "That book? I'd like to vote >AGAINST that one." The first point is just the definition of "Canonical" again but the suggestion of negative votes is new. As i pointed out in a reply to a public version of the same suggestion i don't think that allowing negative votes is a good idea. First, i thought that it might lead to acrimony and that the net effect on a book's votes would be the same anyway and second i thought that if someone went to all the trouble of sending me a book's title then it should appear somewhere in the final list (although if few others liked it would be low down). The last point i'd like to touch on has some bearing on the recent discussion on the perception of quality in literature. Again the quotation is from a representative private letter and so anonymous: >i guess when i saw your request, i figured there were about three >books i'd consider that important. (not that i ever figured what >those three were, but i'll try that at the end of this note.) now >what's it going to mean if i make my vote for three truly >important books when 40 people have already voted for well over 12 >books a piece? My stand on this is basically that the only reasonable way to define "quality" in literature (or any artistic endeavor) and avoid (or at least minimize) discord is to say something is good iff a large number of people say it's good. That this is unsatisfying aesthetically i will immediately grant as, for example, it makes "Three's Company" or whatever is hot nowadays (i don't have a TV) "better" than any show on PBS. But, consider for a moment the alternative. If a number of people were to write to me stating that "Flowers for Algernon" is le dernier cri and not to be surpassed ever by anything (this is, i think, a typical stance in this news group) and an even greater number state that it's toilet paper (another favorite stance) should i accept or reject FfA? If i allow my own judgment of the book to enter into it (i happen to think it's a fine piece of writing) then the list i produce would be a list of _my_ favorites. On the other hand if i don't use my own judgment then what do i say about FfA? Should i say something like "some think this book is the best thing since unsliced bread others think that Keyes should be a candidate for retroactive abortion"? No, this is clearly infeasible. The way it is now no one can complain - you gets what youse paid for. The books that most of you vote for will be highly recommended, others less so. That's democracy. Now i'm just going to clamber onto this soap box here for a minute and talk a little bit about democracy. (No doubt this will in its turn draw flames...:-) I have often observed that there is only a small percentage of the population which is actually active in shaping policy. The "silent majority" is more than just a convenient catch phrase. I've noticed it even here in the cloistered halls of Academie. (We) scientists bemoan the fact that most of the administrators of Universities are non-scientists, however if there is to be any political action then the scientists stay away in droves, claiming that - if (we) ever give it any consideration at all - that (we) aren't going to dirty (our) hands with this "petty" political stuff. If a large group lets itself be dominated by only a small vocal sub-group then that's its own tough luck, i would have thought that net.sf-lovers is dynamic enough that this would not happen. Finally to avoid any further misunderstandings about the poll here is a summary of the salient points: >Only MAIL responses will be recorded. >Everyone who votes will be acknowledged at the end of the Poll unless they explicitly ask otherwise. >This is a Poll of books - the highest voted will be the highest recommended >The reason why you think the book is good is immaterial (a "good read" is a valid reason). It is not necessary to give a reason. >Tell me the author of the book(s) >If you recommended a series then include the titles of the books in the series unless the series is in the appended list or is "very well known" The reason is i may not know the titles and so would not recognize votes for books in the series as the same..also series may have different names... Similarly - don't say ALL of 's books should be in the list (unless you actually LIST them i'll ignore it). >There is no limit on the amount of books you may vote for, however you shouldn't vote more than once for any one book. You may vote (for different books) as many times as you wish. >Ideally i would like a list ordered alphabetically by author with the titles of each authors books in an indented list following the authors name. But that isn't a necessary requirement. >To increase the usefulness of this Poll please try to classify each of the books you vote for. This is not essential but would be nice if you could find the time. The classification can be something simple like some combination of the following tags: - sword & sorcery, fantasy, military, hard science, extrapolation, exploration, colonies, humor, whimsy, historical, overpopulation, superhumans, esp, ai, sociology, mythology, religion, alien invasion, first contact, faster-than-light, subgenre creation, many worlds, subworld creation, unique conception, alternate history, time travel, interspecies relationships, psychology, linguistics, anthropology, space-opera, rites of passage, fun, adventure, superior writing etc. >With the same idea it would be nice if you could give me the date of first publication and any vital statistics about the author that you know (eg. birth-death dates, pseudonyms etc.) Thanks to all those who wrote in with praise instead of groans. Hasta la bye bye for now. Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Battlestar Galactica Date: 27 Jun 85 23:32:41 GMT This is for all the Battlestar "Galactica" fans out there. This past weekend I attended Colonial Con I in Easton, Maryland which was a Galactica con. Richard Hatch and Robert Thurston (write the first four and best B.G. adaptations.) were there. Mr. Thurston gave a talk on the future of "Galactica" novels. He has been signed by Berkley Books to do four more original stories. Berkley has decided to stop adapting the episodes and wants to get into new material. His first book will be out in late November or early December of this year. The title is "The Nightmare Machine" which he wanted titled "Lucifer's Guilt Machine". It seems that Berkley thinks its bad advertising to have guilt in a book title. The hardest hit by Lucifer's little contraption are of course Starbuck and Adama. The one who finds it easiest to deal with, is Boomer. His second book will be out around June of 86. Mr. Thurston's title was "Deal, Chameleon", but Berkley wants to call it "Deal, Starbuck". This is not an adaptation of "The Man With Nine Lives" and Mr. Thurston of course would not say is Starbuck finds out the truth. This story also marks the return of Captain Croft from "Gun on Ice Planet Zero" (The Cylon Death Machine) and he makes a few moves on Sheba. Berkley wants to do two more original stories, but as yet has not signed anyone. From comments made during the discussions with Mr. Thurston it is unlikely that Ron Goulart will be doing them. In case anyone one in the U.S. is interested, "Galactica" has a large following in England and Australia. We had a large group consisting of fans from both countries who showed up. The con was a big hit. Colonial Con II will be held in San Diego next year. If anyone is interested write to me by Email and I can send you the address to write to for more info. Kenneth Crist, Jr. kwc@cvl Computer Vision Lab University of Maryland ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 85 04:24:05 EDT From: Bob Webber Subject: Quotations: Sturgeon and others The Writer's Quotation Book: A Literary Companion edited by James Charlton (Penquin Books, 1981) contains the following quote by Theodore Sturgeon: A good science-fiction story is a story with a human problem, and a human solution, which would not have happened without its science content. Unfortunately, none of the quotes in book have references. I am, of course, curious as to where it was written first. I have a strong suspicion that it was written just after reading Nolan's Cold Equations short story and then immediately forgotten. On the other hand, i guess it could be said of many of his writings (e.g., Maturity [in The Worlds of Theodore Sturgeon] or Microcosmic God [in Caviar]; so maybe he did believe it. There are other quotes that are possibly related to the recent bickering over what is good and what is bad in sf: In literature, as in love, we are astonished at what is chose by others. -- Andre Maurois A book is a mirror; if an ass peers into it, you can't expect an apostle to peer out of it. -- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg No man understands a deep book until he has seen and lived at least part of its contents. -- Ezra Pound I suggest that the only books that influence us are those for which we are ready, and which have gone a little farther down our particular path than we have yet gone ourselves. -- E. M. Forester And always keeping in mind: A good writer is not, per se, a good book critic. No more than a good drunk is automatically a good bartender. -- Jim Bishop we can turn to The Book of Insults: Ancient and Modern, An Amiable History of Insult, Invective, Imprecation & Incivility (Literary, Political, & Historical) Hurled Through the Ages & Compiled as a Public Service by Nancy McPhee [Nancy McPhee, Penguin Books, 1980] and find that even quality [in the traditional sense of anthologizers] can't recognize itself, so what hope have we. It is hard to figure out what one gains by not being able to enjoy a particular book. However, it is still possible to make meaningful comments about books. For example: If you like Peter S. Beagle's A Fine and Private Place, then you will probably enjoy Linda Haldeman's The Last Elf in Elvinwood. If we keep this up, we could develope an almost telegraphic style and produce messgaes like: Clifton Fadiman's The Mathematical Magpie; Clifton Fadiman's Fantasia Mathematica; Edwin Abbott's Flatland; Dionys Burger's Sphereland; D. E. Knuth's Surreal Numbers; A. K. Dewdney's The Planiverse; Norman Kagan's The Mathenauts [Judith Merril's 10th Annual Edition The Year's Best S-F]; Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad. or Olaf Stapledon's Odd John; Stanley G. Weinbaum's The New Adam; Oscar Rossiter's Tetrasomy Two; Theodore Strugeon's Maturity [see above]; Wilmar H. Shiras's Children of the Atom; Daniel Keyes' Flowers for Algernon; David R. Palmer's Emergence. or James P. Hogan's The Genesis Machine; Fred Hoyle and John Elliot's A for Andromeda; David Brin's Startide Rising; Paul Preuss's The Gates of Heaven. or L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt's The Compleat Enchanter; Christopher Stasheff's The Warlock in Spite of Himself; Vernor Vinge's Grimm's World; Ursula K. LeGuin's The Earthsea Trilogy. or for subtler relations: [Gordon Dickson's] The Final Encyclopedia - The Tactics of Mistake = [Ayn Rand's] Atlas Shrugged - The Fountainhead or Ursula K. LeGuin's The Dispossed = Paul Preuss's Broken Symmetries + F. Paul Wilson's An Enemy of the State While doubtless there are many who would take issue with the content of the above groupings/equations, those same people would probably have taken issue with their longer version also. Well, on my screen I only see 16 lines, but i suspect there are enough more that it is time to stop. BOB (webber@rutgers) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jun 85 1037-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #238 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 28 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 238 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Brust & Chalker & Heinlein & The Oz Canon (2 msgs), Films - Terminator & Lifeforce, Television - Roddenbery (2 msgs) & Fixing Bad SF & Battlestar Galactica, Miscellaneous - Controlling Time (2 msgs) & Spoilers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 23:51:49 PDT From: Will Duquette Subject: RE: So Long and Thanks for all the Fish I can't say I've noticed any discrepancies between English and American versions of SLATFATF, but in _Life, the Universe, and Everything_, when Arthur Dent crossed the Atlantic he changed from a "Complete A**hole" to a "Complete Kneebiter." At least as far as Wowbagger was concerned..... Will Duquette ------------------------------ From: rochester!sher@topaz.arpa Subject: SZKB's work Date: 24 Jun 85 08:15:40 GMT I have recently (in the past few months) read Yendi, Jhereg (sp?), and To Reign in Hell. My micro review of SZKB's writing is Steven Brust writes like Larry Niven trying to write like Roger Zelazney, and succeeding. To expand on this the plot structure seems to be reminiscent of Larry Niven's work but the sentence structure reminds me of Roger Zelazny. Considering them indepently of sf-context they are all good read's though TRiH is not as good as the others (Trying to write about simple minded (in the sense that their minds are not complicated) characters results in simplistic characters). In other words TRiH attempts the impossible and almost (but not quite) gets away with it. From the barely literate ramblings of David Sher sher@rochester seismo!rochester!sher ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jun 85 18:11:48 EDT From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Donaldson's Excessively Distended Verbosity I think that this quote of a quote from Chalker's VENGANCE OF THE DANCING GODS says it all: "When chronicling great adventures, the chronicler should take pains to use words that even the most educated of readers must look up. this may make your chronicle very slow, if not impossible to read, but it will be critically acclaimed throughout the land, for none will wish to admit that they didn't understand and relish every word. Instead, they will use the comfort with such phraseology as a limitus test for intelectual equality. No one may ever really read you, but all will be forced to purchase a copy of the chronicle to convince others that they did, and your brilliance and intellect will be permanently unquestioned." --The Romantic Saga Writer's Manual of Style, Marahbar --Jamie jwz@cmu-cs-spice ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Heinlein Date: 26 Jun 85 19:19:39 GMT >From: Alvin Wong >Someone asked a while back what was the "Glaroon" in a couple of >Robert Heinlein's stories. I did not see an answer to this since. >I too am greatly puzzled by this reference and would appreciate >answers/minor pointers. I was the one, and no-one has responded to me, yet. The two places in which the references appear are in _JOB_ and in a short-story called _They_. Also, someone wrote me a short while ago, asking about the story _Gulf_, which is connected to _Friday_. The story is in a collection called _Assignment in Eternity_ which is still in print (I think); I happened to remember it because they have been advertisements for Astounding in microfiche, and the issue which has _Gulf_ in it is one they are handing out as a freebie to show off the product. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 11:25:47-PDT From: binder%dosadi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Wherever you go, there you are.) To: jsweet@uci-icsa.ARPA Subject: Re: The Oz canon and the film Book 41: /A Barnstormer in Oz/ by PJ Farmer. It's good, it's real PJ Farmer, and I wouldn't give it to kids. It is quite well done, and the story certainly fits the Oz stories well, even "explaining" many things we only wondered about. But fairly intense sex (NOT explicit) disqualifies it, in my humble opinion, from membership in the canon, because a kid book it ain't. Cheers, Dick Binder (The Stainless Steel Rat) ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: Re: Oz books Date: 27 Jun 85 06:53:14 GMT unixcorn@dcc1.UUCP (math.c) writes: > When L.Frank Baum died in 1919, Reilly and Lee (the publishers of >his books) decided to find another author who could continue the >one book a year cycle that was so profitable for them. Ruth Plumly >Thompson fit the bill perfectly, she had grown up on the OZ books, >was already an author of childrens books and she needed the money >to support her mother and invalid sister. The first book she wrote >was published under Baum's and her name (to promote continuity) but >was all her own work. The "Reader's Guide to Fantasy" - Searls, Meacham & Franklin pg 27 states that "The Royal Book of Oz" (her first) was a work up by her of notes that Baum left his demise, so the accreditation would be proper (that is if this is correct - i have no information to the contrary). Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 85 10:48:12 EDT From: Donald.Schmitz@CMU-RI-ARM Subject: Ellison and Terminator I just watched Terminator last night from a rented (and well used) VHS tape. One of the last lines in the credits acknowledges Harlan Ellison's work. It seems hard to believe that this line was just added because of the recent court decision, as the tape appeared much older than two weeks. Does anyone know if Harlan was originally associated with the project, otherwise it seems the people who made Terminator were asking for trouble by acknowledging his work without paying him something. Don Schmitz@cmu-ri-arm ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jun 85 10:48:12 EDT From: Donald.Schmitz@CMU-RI-ARM Subject: Ellison and Terminator Also, a brief word of advice, the new movie Life Force, which had what I considered a good preview and touts lots of people from big name movies, is in actuallity a poor B movie. The plot has been blatantly ripped off from Alien and Dawn of the Dead, and the acting, effects, etc. range from non- existent to awful. I haven't seen any mention of this film so far, so maybe its not too late to save you all. Don Schmitz@cmu-ri-arm ------------------------------ Subject: Roddenbery Date: 27 Jun 85 08:34:20 PDT (Thu) From: Dave Godwin The three other-than-ST projects that Roddenbery worked on are as follows: 1. The 'advanced-race-looking-over-us' idea that was moved from a pilot film to a TV movie of the week was 'The Questor Tapes'. It starred Mike Farrel ( late of MASH ) as a human engineer, and somebody I can't recall as the android Questor. D.C. Fontana novelised the script. 2. The modern-man-in-the-future idea was made into the pilot film 'Genesis II', which starred Alex Cord, currently the Arch-angel character on Air Wolf. This was better done than any of the Duck Dogers stuff, and the network said, 'OK, make another one.' Gene did. It was called 'Planet Earth', and replaced Cord with John Saxon. This one flubbed ( man, it was bad ), and the project got stepped on. 3. The occult series idea was made into a TV pilot starring Robert Culp as an investigator into occult happenings. This was a really nice piece of work, so of course I can't remember the darn name. As a note of interest, the main character's maid/caretaker was played by Majel Barret-Roddenbery, Christine Chapel of ST fame. I have no idea why this one didn't take. This piece of work has no relation whatsoever with the usually watchable 'Sixth Sense' series, which starred Gary Collins. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 17:04 PDT From: WPHILLIPS.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #233 Cc: jhardest@bbncct.Arpa I think I know the answers. For the pilots, I think the first one is *Probe V* It was about the last of a race of androids left to watch over earth. The second pilot is *Spectre*. It shows up every now and again on saturday afternoon movies. As for the short lived series, I gotcha covered on that one. It was called *Planet Earth.*( I think Roddenbery mant it as an earthbound *Star Trek*). Now I have some trivia 1) Name the pilot film for *Planet Earth*. and in case you get that. 2) Name the actor(s) that played the lead role. ------------------------------ From: inuxm!les@topaz.arpa (Leslie Bomar) Subject: Re: How to fix bad sci-fi Date: 27 Jun 85 19:17:09 GMT > Space 1999: > Hardest of all to fix, because you just can't by a flying moon, > except perhaps with spindizzies, and they wouldn't be that out of > control. The fact remains that if you are going to have an > interstellar adventure show, you have just got to have FTL drives. > > Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario > 519/884-7473 I have a tendency to disagree with this particular comment in that I read a very good book a while back, that involved a species of higher technological capabilities that were running from an explosion in the galactic core and, their fleet was primarily made up of their own planets. They also took the earth with them( I don't want to give too many details in case you haven't read the book). Also if you are familiar with "known space" check back and see why and how the puppeteers left our galaxy. Your other comments were very well done. Write e-mail if you want the title to the book mentioned above as I will have to look it up. References to "known space" can be given but those too I will have to look up. Les Bomar !inhp4!inuxc!inuxm!les ------------------------------ From: dartvax!merchant@topaz.arpa (Peter Merchant) Subject: Re: Space 1999 : SF-on-TV in general Date: 25 Jun 85 22:12:27 GMT > A disclaimer : my view of the American view of B-G is based on > "Starlog" magazine. According to that rag, B-G was the best thing > *ever* and loved by all. So maybe some of you good-guys in the > states would like to let us Europeans know what the true feelings > re B-G were. > > UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam "Starlog" is certainly an interesting magazine in that it does a pretty good job of keeping people posted on science fiction/adventure movies (I consider James Bond and Indiana Jones not to be Science Fiction, although there are those who disagree). My only complaint about "Starlog" is that they love everything. Anything that says "Space" is the best thing to happen to science fiction since sliced bread. I tend to not trust their reviews of anything. Therefore, I wouldn't take their opinion to heart. Now, when it comes to Cattlecar Galactica you have to stop and think about it. As science fiction television, it was horrible. The characters were pretty weak, the stories were ridiculous, etc. But, was B-G really TRYING to be science fiction? Nah, I don't think so. It was very thin adventure. At this, it was very good. Pulp fiction adventure has it's place on television. Fine, this one was based on a giant spaceship. So? Come come, gang, just because it's in space doesn't mean more should be expected of it. My only complaint about B-G as an adventure SERIES is that it became too predictable. They reused far too many daring escapes, making the adventure mundane. Alone, it was okay, but on the third time you'd think the cylons would have learned. As David Gerrold put it, we don't tune in to see whether the hero will escape. We know he will. We want to see how! Now, when the how becomes obvious, it gets dull. Peter Merchant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 10:17 EDT From: Scott Brim Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 Re stories about controlling time: there was one which I think was called "Timestorm", in Analog, by a Russian. In it a man is transported to the center from which the Timelords control events in all time. He does things with surprising results. Nuff said. Maybe someone else can pinpoint where and when it appeared. Scott ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@topaz.arpa (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time Date: 27 Jun 85 13:14:00 GMT > Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about > CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel > (controlling your local time)? You'll find some of that among the evil characters in many episodes of Dr. Who. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...!ihnp4!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 11:22:06-PDT From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: ....SPOILERS ?? Everybody is different, some people get less enjoyment out of the first reading of a book they know too much about and should be given a warning about spoilers in a review. I like to read certain books 2 or more times myself, but, it depends on the book ! In a movie theatre have you ever sat behind (or near) a person who starts telling whats going to happen next ? "...Don't worry there is no body down in the basement, but, as soon as they go back upstairs Jason cuts all their heads off, except for the nerd girl who dresses up like dorothy from the wizard of oz and then shoots him with a phaser, after that he...". People will usually ask him to be "QUITE !!", the extreme example above is of course from 'FRIDAY the 13th, PART 2001'. And lets not even talk about showtimes previews of coming attractions, or Movie previews in general. ("My God, was that the ENTERPRISE") Just because I like to read the 'LORD of the RINGS' at least once a year, I don't think I should write a review that gives away the ending. I guess the question really is : What is a SPOILER ? **** spoiler for 'STAR WARS' **** Which of the following are spoilers for 'STAR WARS' ? 1. The story of rebels against an evil empire. 2. There is an extremely nasty villian named Darth Vader. 3. The hero of our story is young Luke Skywalker. 4. The two robots (called DROIDS) are extremely cute, like Laurel & Hardy. 5. Han decides to come back, and with his help Luke (DARTH'S SON) destroys the Death Star (the 1st one) and saves the rebel base. 6. Nice special effects, especially the laser swords (called LIGHT-SABERS). 7. The concept of the force is really neat, especially since it lets Obi-wan stay around even though he let darth kill his body. I think # 5 and # 7 are the spoilers. I know it's hard to do a review without telling too much. I just want the reviewers to be careful, and if they are not sure that they haven't told too much, give us a SPOILER warning ? Thanks, KEN COBB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Jun 85 1135-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #240 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 29 Jun 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 240 Today's Topics: Books - Current status of the SF Poll ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: SF Poll. Date: 24 Jun 85 10:17:41 GMT Some Statistics (so far): 70 people have written in so far 846 distinct books 228 authors (counting collaborations) And here is the current list of favorites. (note: there's a lot of extraneous information this time round, i'm in the process of providing as much information on the books (and authors) as i can in the final list - right now i'm adding the Hugos and Nebulas. If you have anything to contribute please send it in - this is a lot of work!) 27 The Moon is a Harsh Mistress [1966] [ai,lunar colony,war] Heinlein,Robert A. 23 Dune [1965] [ecology,superman,esp,war] Herbert,Frank 22 The Mote in God's Eye [1974] [first contact,hard science, war] Niven,Larry & Pournelle,Jerry 22 The Lord of the Rings Trilogy: [epic fantasy,quest, linguistics] Tolkien,John Ronald Reuel 22 Ringworld [1970] [hard science,planetary engineering] Niven,Larry 20 Startide Rising [1983] [hard science,dolphin intelligence, contact] Brin,David 18 The Foundation Trilogy: [Hugo 1966] Asimov,Isaac 15 The Left Hand of Darkness [sex] Le Guin,Ursula K. 14 The Book of the New Sun Tetralogy: [soft sf,superior writing] Wolfe,Gene 14 Stranger in a Strange Land [1961] [superman,sociology] Heinlein,Robert A. 14 Lord of Light [superhumans,mythology,religion] Zelazny,Roger 14 Childhood's End [1953] [maturing of human race,aliens] Clarke,Arthur C. 12 Sundiver [1980] [mystery,dolphin intelligence,contact] Brin,David 11 The Stars My Destination [1956] [aka "Tiger,Tiger!"] Bester,Alfred 11 The Forever War [interstellar war] Haldeman,Joe 11 Stand on Zanzibar [1968] [overpopulation,sociology] Brunner,John Kilian Houston 11 Rendezvous with Rama [1973] [first contact,hard science] Clarke,Arthur C. 10 The Persistence of Vision [col.] Varley,John 10 The Dying Earth [1950] [far future,magic] Vance,Jack 10 I,Robot [1950] Asimov,Isaac 9 The Sheep Look Up [1972] Brunner,John Kilian Houston 9 The Lensman Series: Smith,Edward Elmer,Ph.D. [1890-1965] 9 The Dispossessed [1974] [politics] Le Guin,Ursula K. 9 The Demolished Man [1953] Bester,Alfred 9 The Complete Enchanter: [scientific magic,humour] de Camp,L. Sprague & Pratt,Fletcher 9 Mission of Gravity [1954] [hard science,aliens] Clement,Hal 9 Dragon's Egg [1980] [hard science] Forward,Robert L.,Ph.D. 8 Way Station [1963] [first contact] Simak,Clifford 8 To Your Scattered Bodies Go [1971] Farmer,Philip Jose 8 The Time Machine Wells,Herbert George,B.Sc. D.Litt. [1866-1946] 8 Starship Troopers [1959] [politics] Heinlein,Robert A. 8 Rite of Passage [1968] [rite of passage] Panshin,Alexei 8 Protector [1973] [human origin,hard science] Niven,Larry 8 Macroscope [1969] [cosmic adventure,ftl] Anthony, Piers [nee "Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob"] 8 Gateway [1977] Pohl,Frederik 8 2001: A Space Odyssey [1968] Clarke,Arthur C. 7 The Vlad Taltos Books: [scientific magic] Brust,Steven 7 The Shockwave Rider [1975] Brunner,John Kilian Houston 6 The Witches of Karres [magic] Schmitz,James H. 6 The Cyberiad Lem,Stanislaw 6 The City and the Stars [future evolution] Clarke, Arthur C. 6 The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever Part I: Donaldson,Steven R. 6 Tea With the Black Dragon MacAvoy,R. A. 6 Neutron Star [1968] [col.] [hard science] Niven,Larry 6 Fahrenheit 451 [1953] [censorship] Bradbury,Ray Douglas 6 Creatures of Light and Darkness [1969] Zelazny,Roger 6 City [1952] [future humanity] Simak,Clifford 6 A Canticle for Leibowitz [1959] [religion,post-holocaust] Miller,Walter M. Jr. 5 This Immortal ["..and call me Conrad"] [immortal superman] Zelazny,Roger 5 The War of The Worlds Wells,Herbert George,B.Sc. D.Litt. [1866-1946] 5 The Space Merchants [1952] [extrapolation,satire] Pohl,Frederik & Kornbluth,Cyril M. 5 The Puppet Masters [1951] Heinlein,Robert A. 5 The Hobbit [1937] [juvenile] Tolkien,John Ronald Reuel 5 The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy [1979] Adams,Douglas 5 The Doors of His Face,The Lamps of His Mouth [1971] [col.] Zelazny,Roger 5 The Chronicles of Amber Pentalogy: [alternate magic worlds] Zelazny,Roger 5 Tactics of Mistake [1971] Dickson,Gordon R. 5 Silverlock [1949] Myers Myers,John 5 Nostrilia [1975] [comp. of "The Underpeople" "The Planet Buyer"] Smith,Cordwainer [nee Paul Linebarger Ph.D.] [1915-1954] 5 Nine Princes in Amber [1970] Zelazny,Roger 5 More Than Human [1953] [group mind] Sturgeon,Theodore 5 Lucifer's Hammer [1977] [catastrophe] Niven,Larry & Pournelle,Jerry 5 Lord Valentine's Castle Silverberg,Robert 5 Little Fuzzy [1962] Piper,H. Beam 5 Foundation's Edge [1982] Asimov,Isaac 5 Dreamsnake McIntyre,Vonda N. 5 Callahan's Crosstime Saloon [1977] Robinson,Spider 5 A Case of Conscience [1958] [Hugo 1959] [religion] Blish,James Benjamin 4 Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang [post-holocaust,cloning] Wilhelm,Kate 4 Titan [1979] Varley,John 4 Time Enough for Love [1973] Heinlein,Robert A. 4 The Warlock in Spite of Himself Stasheff,Christopher 4 The Snow Queen [1980] [alien civilization] Vinge,Joan D. 4 The Ship Who Sang [cyborg] McCaffrey,Anne 4 The Myth Adventures Series: [humour,fantasy] Asprin, Robert Lynn 4 The Midwich Cuckoos [1957] Wyndham,John [1903-1969] 4 The Man in the High Castle [1962] [alternate history] Dick,Philip K. 4 The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Trilogy: [humour,philosophy] Adams,Douglas 4 The Final Reflection Ford,John 4 The Dragonriders of Pern Trilogy: [fantasy] McCaffrey, Anne 4 The Darkover Series: Bradley,Marion Eleanor Zimmer 4 The Cities In Flight Tetralogy: [future history,space opera] Blish,James Benjamin 4 The Best of Cordwainer Smith [1975] [col.] [human animals, future history] Smith,Cordwainer [nee Paul Linebarger Ph.D.] [1915-1954] 4 The Belgariad Pentalogy: [fantasy,S&S,epic] Eddings,David 4 Soldier,Ask Not [1968] [future society,military] Dickson,Gordon R. 4 Operation Chaos [scientific magic,alternate world] Anderson,Poul William 4 Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen [alternate history] Piper,H. Beam 4 Empire of the East Saberhagen,Fred 4 Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? Dick,Philip K. 4 Davy [1964] [post-holocaust] Pangborn,Edgar 4 Dangerous Visions [ed.] Ellison,Harlan 4 A Wrinkle in Time [1962] L'Engle,Madeleine 3 Too Many Magicians Garrett,Randall 3 The Weapon Shops of Isher [1951] van Vogt,A. E. 3 The Wanderer [1964] [catastrophe] Leiber,Fritz 3 The Two Faces of Tomorrow [1979] [ai] Hogan,James Patrick 3 The Tales of the Five: [fantasy] Duane,Diane 3 The Skylark Series: Smith,Edward Elmer,Ph.D. [1890-1965] 3 The Saga of the Pliocene Exile Tetralogy: [time travel, aliens,esp] May,Julian 3 The Practice Effect [1984] [alternate universe,humour] Brin,David 3 The Ophiuchi Hotline Varley,John 3 The Mists of Avalon [fantasy,Arthurian cycle] Bradley, Marion Eleanor Zimmer 3 The Martian Chronicles [1950] [col.] Bradbury,Ray Douglas 3 The Many-Coloured Land [1981] May,Julian 3 The Lord Darcy Series: [magic,alternate history] Garrett,Randall 3 The Little Fuzzy Series: [sympathetic aliens,humour] Piper,H. Beam 3 The Lathe of Heaven Le Guin,Ursula K. 3 The Last Unicorn [1968] [fantasy] Beagle,Peter Soyer 3 The Goblin Reservation [1968] Simak,Clifford 3 The Fountains of Paradise [1978] Clarke,Arthur C. 3 The Einstein Intersection Delany,Samuel R. 3 The Dosadi Experiment [1977] Herbert,Frank 3 The Deep Range [1957] [undersea farming] Clarke,Arthur C. 3 The Deathworld Trilogy: [hostile planet] Harrison,Harry 3 The Day of the Triffids [1951] [catastrophe] Wyndham,John [1903-1969] 3 Stardance Robinson,Spider & Jeanne 3 Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers Harrison,Harry 3 SongMaster Card,Orson Scott 3 Slan [1968] [supermen] van Vogt,A. E. 3 Roadmarks [1979] [time travel] Zelazny,Roger 3 Retief at Large [diplomacy,aliens,humour] Laumer,Keith 3 Neuromancer [hard science] Gibson,William 3 Needle [1949] [alien virus] Clement,Hal 3 Men,Martians and Machines [adventure,robots] Russell, Eric Frank 3 Jack of Shadows [magic,superman] Zelazny,Roger 3 Inferno [1976] Niven,Larry & Pournelle,Jerry 3 Gladiator-at-Law [1955] [extrapolation,satire] Pohl,Frederik & Kornbluth,Cyril M. 3 Flowers for Algernon [1966] [intelligence,fine writing] Keyes,Daniel 3 Downbelow Station [politics,war,aliens] Cherryh,C.J. 3 Double Star [politics] Heinlein,Robert A. 3 Doorways in the Sand [1976] Zelazny,Roger 3 Damiano MacAvoy,R. A. 3 Cat's Cradle [1963] [end of the world] Vonnegut,Kurt Jr. [1922- ] 3 Bill the Galactic Hero Harrison,Harry 3 Beauty [well written fairy tale] McKinley,Robin 3 Babel-17 [1966] Delany,Samuel R. 3 Another Fine Myth [1978] Asprin,Robert Lynn 3 Again,Dangerous Visions [ed.] Ellison,Harlan 3 A Spell for Chameleon Anthony,Piers [nee "Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob"] 3 A Fall of Moondust Clarke,Arthur C. 3 1984 [1949] [dystopia] Orwell,George [nee Eric Arthur Blair] [1903-1950] 2 Worlds of the Imperium [alternate worlds] Laumer,Keith 2 Wasp [adventure,humour] Russell,Eric Frank 2 Waldo & Magic,Incorporated [two novellas] [scientific magic] Heinlein,Robert A. 2 Venus Equilateral [communications relay,techies] Smith,George O. 2 Ubik [1969] Dick,Philip K. 2 True Names Vinge,Vernor 2 Tower of Glass [androids] Silverberg,Robert 2 To Reign in Hell [mythology,religion] [1985] Brust,Steven 2 Thrice Upon a Time Hogan,James Patrick 2 Thieves World Asprin,Robert Lynn 2 Thendara House [1983] Bradley,Marion Eleanor Zimmer 2 The World of Null-A [1948] van Vogt,A. E. 2 The Warhound and the World's Pain Moorcock,Michael 2 The Tree of Swords and Jewels [sequel to The Dreamstone] Cherryh,C.J. 2 The Traveller in Black [fantasy] Brunner,John Kilian Houston 2 The Titan Series: [world as organism] Varley,John 2 The Thurb Revolution [1968] Panshin,Alexei 2 The Swords of Lankhmar [col.] Leiber,Fritz 2 The Star Diaries Lem,Stanislaw 2 The Stainless Steel Rat [1961] Harrison,Harry 2 The Snarkout Boys and the Avocado of Death Pinkwater,Daniel 2 The Skylark of Space [1946] Smith,Edward Elmer,Ph.D. [1890-1965] 2 The Silver Metal Lover Lee,Tanith 2 The Sector General Series: White,James 2 The Rolling Stones [aka "Space Family Stone"] [juvenile, family space travel] Heinlein,Robert A. 2 The Riddle of the Stars Trilogy: McKillip,Patricia 2 The Reluctant King Trilogy: de Camp,L. Sprague 2 The Red Magician Goldstein,Lisa 2 The Princess Bride [1973] Goldman,William 2 The Past Through Tomorrow [1967] [col.] [future history] Heinlein,Robert A. 2 The King of Elfland's Daughter Duane,Diane 2 The Integral Trees [1983] [hard science] Niven,Larry 2 The Instrumentality of Mankind [1979] [col.] Smith, Cordwainer [nee Paul Linebarger Ph.D.] [1915-1954] 2 The Incarnations of Immortality Series: Anthony,Piers [nee "Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob"] 2 The Illustrated Man [1951] Bradbury,Ray Douglas 2 The Illuminatus! Trilogy: [conspiracy theories,humour] Wilson,Robert Anton & Shea,Robert J. 2 The Heechee Trilogy: Pohl,Frederik 2 The Harper Hall of Pern Trilogy: [fantasy] McCaffrey,Anne 2 The Guardians of the Flame Series: Rosenberg,Joel 2 The Gods Themselves [1972] [Hugo & Nebula 1972] Asimov,Isaac 2 The Futurological Congress Lem,Stanislaw 2 The Flying Sorcerers [1971] [humour,hard science] Gerrold,David & Niven,Larry 2 The Fifth Head of Cerberus [1972] [col.] Wolfe,Gene 2 The Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser series: [sword & sorcery, humour] Leiber,Fritz 2 The Faded Sun Trilogy: [adventure,politics] Cherryh,C.J. 2 The Face Vance,Jack 2 The End of Eternity [1955] Asimov,Isaac 2 The Earthsea Trilogy: Le Guin,Ursula K. 2 The Dreamstone [celtic mythos,sword & sorcery] Cherryh,C.J. 2 The Dragon Waiting Ford,John 2 The Door into Fire Duane,Diane 2 The Demon Princes Series: [future civilazation] Vance,Jack 2 The Darwath Trilogy: Hambly,Barbara 2 The Dancers at the End of Time Series: Moorcock,Michael 2 The Crucible of Time Brunner,John Kilian Houston 2 The Colour Of Magic Pratchett,Terry 2 The Childe Cycle of books: [development of human race] Dickson,Gordon R. 2 The Camber Trilogy: Kurtz,Katherine 2 The Broken Sword Anderson,Poul William 2 The Book of Dreams Vance,Jack 2 The Birthgrave Lee,Tanith 2 The Big Time [alternate worlds] Leiber,Fritz 2 The Battle Circle Trilogy: [post-holocaust] Anthony, Piers [nee "Piers Anthony Dillingham Jacob"] 2 The Barbie Murders Varley,John 2 The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat Harrison,Harry 2 Tau Zero [1970] [hard science,interstellar ship] Anderson,Poul William 2 Tales of Known Space [col.] Niven,Larry 2 Systemic Shock Ing,Dean 2 Swords and Deviltry [1970] [col.] Leiber,Fritz 2 Swords against Death [col.] Leiber,Fritz 2 Star Well Panshin,Alexei 2 Something Wicked This Way Comes Bradbury,Ray Douglas 2 So You Want to Be a Wizard Duane,Diane 2 Slaughterhouse-5 Vonnegut,Kurt Jr. [1922- ] 2 Retief's War [diplomacy,aliens,humour] Laumer,Keith 2 Raphael MacAvoy,R. A. 2 Quest of the Three Worlds Smith,Cordwainer [nee Paul Linebarger Ph.D.] [1915-1954] 2 Pilgrimage: The Book of the People Henderson,Zenna 2 Out of the Deeps [1953] [aka "The Kraken Wakes"] Wyndham,John [1903-1969] 2 Our Lady of Darkness [horror] Leiber,Fritz 2 Nova [1968] Delany,Samuel R. 2 Mindkiller Robinson,Spider 2 Midnight at the Well of Souls [1977] [artificial worlds] [first in Well World series] Chalker,Jack L. 2 Michaelmas Budrys,Algi/rda/s Jonas 2 Masque World Panshin,Alexei 2 Martians,Go Home [1955] [humour] Brown,Frederic William 2 Little,Big Crowley,John 2 Jhereg [1983] Brust,Steven 2 Have Spacesuit Will Travel Heinlein,Robert A. 2 God Stalk Hodgell,P. C. 2 Glory Road [1963] Heinlein,Robert A. 2 Flatland [math. popularization] Abbott,Edwin A. 2 Dragonsinger McCaffrey,Anne 2 Dragonflight McCaffrey,Anne 2 Dorsai! [1959] [future history] Dickson,Gordon R. 2 Dinosaur Beach Laumer,Keith 2 Deathbird Stories Ellison,Harlan 2 Damiano's Lute MacAvoy,R. A. 2 Dahlgren Delany,Samuel R. 2 Conan the Barbarian [sword & sorcery] Howard,Robert E. 2 Citizen of the Galaxy [rite of passage,future society] Heinlein,Robert A. 2 Camp Concentration [1968] Disch,Thomas M. 2 Brave New World Huxley,Aldous 2 Bolo Laumer,Keith 2 Berserker [killer robots] Saberhagen,Fred 2 Armageddon 2419AD [original Buck Rogers] Nowlan, Phillip Francis 2 All the Myriad Ways [1971] [col.] Niven,Larry 2 Agent of Vega [adventure] Schmitz,James H. 2 Against the Fall of Night [future evolution] Clarke, Arthur C. 2 A Wizard of Earthsea [juvenile,magic,rite of passage] Le Guin,Ursula K. 2 A Princess of Mars [1917] Burroughs,Edgar Rice 2 A Midsummer Tempest [fantasy,Shakespearean overtones] Anderson,Poul William ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jul 85 0946-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #241 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 241 Today's Topics: Books - End of the World Stories (2 msgs) & The Oz Canon & A Story Request, Films - D.A.R.Y.L. & The Black Cauldron & Star Trek (2 msgs), Television - Space: 1999 Miscellaneous - Discrepancies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 07:54:38-PDT From: goun%vacant.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Heisenberg may have slept here) To: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Re: The End of Civilization as We Know It "End of the world" stories are probably my favorite SF sub-genre. Try _Down_to_a_Sunless_Sea_, by an author whose name unfortunately escapes me at the moment (where's jayembee when you need him?). It's the story of the passengers and crew of a 747 jetliner trying to survive the outbreak of a nuclear war. I didn't actually break out in tears reading this book, but I sniffled a bit. -- Roger Goun ARPA:goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP:{allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS:Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 10:44:34-PDT From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: 'END OF THE WORLD' BOOKS > I have, in thinking of some of the books I have enjoyed >over the last few years, realized there is a small sub-genre that I >seem to enjoy. It is the one where civilization is zapped (or at >least totally screwed up) by a non-alien occurrence. So far I have >read Lucifer's Hammer, The Stand, and War Day. I am currently >reading The Floating Dragon, and have enjoyed the first half of the >book. Does anyone else enjoy this kind of Speculative Fiction? > >Brendan E. Boelke I do like the kind of book you are talking about. I'll give you a recommendation of another book to read, "EMERGENCE" by David Palmer. I really liked the book and recommend it highly. Also let me be the first to drop this joke on you: "ARMAGEDDON sick and tired of these 'End of the World' stories" KEN COBB ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 09:39:57-PDT From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) To: jlr%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: political content of "The Wizard of Oz" Rick Heli asked if anyone has ever put a political interpretation on the Oz books. I have heard of such an analysis, complete with references to William Jennings Bryant and bi-metallism, but I don't know enough about the books or the politics of the time to judge it. However, I do have my own theories about the movie, "The Wizard of Oz". When I saw it as a kid, I thought it was just a pleasant fantasy about a girl having some remarkable adventures. Ha! That's just the disguise that the moviemakers put over their true intentions. We start with a girl from Kansas, the very heartland of America. She's our own red, white, and blue girl: red hair, lips, and shoes, and a blue and white pinafore. She's swept away by a cataclysm (the Great Depression) to a strange land, and all she wants to do is get home. Home to the happy times, the times of prosperity, the place where bluebirds fly. People tell her to go to the Emerald City (Washington) and see the Wizard (Roosevelt). He knows the way. Along her journey she meets the major segments of American society, one by one. The first she comes upon is the Scarecrow, the intellectuals. He's lost his brains, he just doesn't know which way to go (when we first see him, he's pointing left). Communism, fascism, or reject it all for existentialism? Come with me to meet the Wizard, says Dorothy. Join the Brain Trust and get your purpose back. Next is the Tin Woodman, American industry, rusted to a stop. All he needs is a little oil in his joints, a little government spending to prime the pump, and he can get moving again. What is he missing? A heart. Compassion for the worker. Retired and penniless? Tough luck. Organizing for better working conditions? Fine, you're fired. Come with me to the Wizard, with his Social Security programs and pro-union bent, says Dorothy. Finally they meet the cowardly Lion, the military. After World War I he was king of the forest. Now enemies are moving in Germany and Japan, and he is helpless to do anything. Lost his courage. They make it to Washington, and find that the Wizard is not quite what they had hoped. Instead of solving their problems, he sends them out a dangerous mission against someone who wants to conquer the world and lives in a very Germanic looking castle (the movie was made in 1939). They succeed in spite of it all and return to claim their reward. But the Wizard turns out not to be the mighty and awe-inspiring figure that they thought. He's just a kindly and somewhat befuddled old man. He shows them that they had the real answers inside them all along. Little Dorothy America only had to truly believe that she could get home and there she was: "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." This all sounded pretty good to me as I was watching the movie (to the point where when Glinda, the good witch of the North, appeared all I could think of was "Eleanor!"), but there was one major character unaccounted for. What about the dog? Toto is with Dorothy all the time. What role could he be playing? When he pulled aside the curtain revealing the Wizard, it finally came to me. Toto is the fourth estate, the media. He's always running ahead of Dorothy and finding out things. When she's trapped in the witch's castle, he carries messages between her and the Scarecrow. He shows the Wizard for what he really is, in spite of all the lights and smoke of White House pomp. But what about the Munchkins? The flying monkeys? The poppy fields? I leave them as exercises for the reader. John Redford P.S. The new movie, "Return to Oz", is wonderful. One could put political interpretations on it too, with the way that the punked-out Wheelers scurry through the ruins of the Emerald City, but enough is enough. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 08:52:55-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: another "what was that story called"... All this talk of time stories reminded me of a short story/novella but I can't seem to remember the name or where I read it. This is what I remember of it: one average normal day our hero comes home from an out-of-town trip to find his home and wife in a "frozen" state, cobwebs on everything, on his entrance into the house everything "comes to life". After encountering this phenomenon a few times, he begins to question his sanity. It turns out that he is the only "live" person in the "puppet" world and everything is being controlled for someone elses amusement. (Sorry, I don't remember how it ends.) Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 28 Jun 1985 07:18:42-PDT From: lionel%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: D.A.R.Y.L. I haven't seen the movie D.A.R.Y.L., but from what I've heard of the plot, and the current discussion of plagiarism suits, I wonder if anyone's noticed the similarities between D.A.R.Y.L. and John Sladek's "Roderick". Both are about a robot-boy who is adopted by a family. Of course, Sladek's story is positively insane, but the idea is there... Steve Lionel ------------------------------ From: dartvax!betsy@topaz.arpa (Betsy Hanes Perry) Subject: The Black Cauldron (spoilers!) Date: 27 Jun 85 18:58:26 GMT I was in my local bookstore yesterday when I saw "The Black Cauldron Coloring Book", a Disney tie-in to the movie of the same name. I skimmed it for clues as to how closely the movie would follow the book. Here follow some hasty impressions: o Visually, the movie owes far more to Sleeping Beauty than to the original illustrations for the Alexander book. That is to say, Prydain is far cleaner and more wholesome than I'd imagined it. It looks like a Disney movie; what can I say? o As an example of this, Gurgi is about knee-high and is clean. (no dirt and leaves in his fur.) o Eilonwy is a dead ringer for the Disney Alice. o The Prince who sacrifices his life to break the Cauldron has vanished entirely. Instead, the Dark Lord is knocked into the Cauldron by Taran. (Somehow, I don't think they'll be making a sequel...) o Hen Wen is round, pink, and clean. She looks rather like the tidied-up Wilbur from Charlotte's Web. o The Dark Lord, however, is at least as scary-looking as the evil witches in Sleeping Beauty and Snow White. A definite seat-wetter. Don't get me wrong; I'll be in line, $5 in hand, as soon as the box office opens. I'll simply be expecting another charming Disney movie, not a close approximation to the Lloyd Alexander books. Elizabeth Hanes Perry UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: Nimoy interview and Star Trek IV rumors Date: 28 Jun 85 06:27:00 GMT The Z Channel Cable TV magazine features an interview with Leonard Nimoy in the lastest issue. Not being a particularly ardent Trekkie, I'm not sure about how fresh his revelations about the origin of Spock and so on are, but he also comments at length about "Star Trek IV", which he will direct. Here are a few choice quotes. Q: Can you tell me anything about it [STIV]? A: It will be released in 1986. Q: Are all the regulars back? A: We expect all of our regular cast. Q: Any chance of it (the Enterprise) coming back to life? A: I would hope we could deal with the loss of a ship. Q: I understand that STIV is supposed to be a little funnier, a little lighter. A: Yeah, that's the intention. It's time to have some fun Q: Rumor has it that Eddie Murphy may be joining you...[questioner's ellipses] A: I really don't know. We don't even have a script yet. No point in discussing casting till we get a script. We will have a script some time in August. We know there will be at least one interesting guest character. And I have had a couple conversations with him, but there's no predicting right now. Q: The crew in STIII seems to have strayed off their law-abiding course ... [questioner's ellipses] A: In STIV we are going to deal with the fact that they are now renegades. So they aren't going to be functioning as policemen in STIV either. Q: Will Spock recover? A: Boy, I'm concerned about that. I'd like to see my old friend live long and prosper. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa soon to be reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Subject: "Where no man has gone before" Date: 27 Jun 85 23:13:35 PDT (Thu) From: Alastair Milne I usually take that frontispiece "... boldly go where no man has gone before" in about the same vein as the publishers' scribbles on the covers of paperbacks: if, by some accident, they come close to describing what's in the book, you're lucky. And it's true that the Enterprise from time to time undertook explorations in previously untrodden (so to speak) territory. However, most of the time she had duties to fulfill as one of the 12 or 13 most powerful ships of the Federation's fleet. She could hardly do that while spending 5 years out of contact with anybody at all. Furthermore, how likely is it that anybody would send so expensive a ship and crew out simply to be a remote survey vessel? Or that StarFleet would entrust *all* diplomatic dealings with newly-contacted races to a crew whose primary orientation was military? Let Enterprise and her sisters establish first contact, but let the Federation's diplomatic corp do their job as soon as possible. Though as for the naming of the newly discovered planets, they seemed to follow a naming system using first the name of the constellation in which the sun was found, a Greek letter specifying the particular sun (possibly by absolute magnitude), and a number specifying the planet of that sun. So they could actually specify names for as-yet hypothetical planets. One wonders if all the constellation names were for those seen from Earth, or if other planets got their points of view represented as well. So I take it for granted that, though they may occasionally go where no human has gone before (boldly, I trust), they will usually be going where there are plenty of humans, and others, already. (Do you realise how many people must now think that "... to boldly go..." is acceptable English grammar?) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Subject: Space: 1999 Date: 28 Jun 85 00:38:35 PDT (Fri) From: Alastair Milne Space:1999 was far from being one the best series I've ever seen, but it was at least nice to look at. A great deal of work went into having striking and aesthetically pleasing scenery, and equipment. If a similar amount of work had gone into removing Barbara Bain, the series might have done better. What wonderful things contracts are: you have no acting talent worthy of the name, no expressiveness, no spark of character, and they can't get rid of you because you have a contract. The absurdity of the pseudo-science? About par for the course, I'd say. Dreadful compared to what it could have been, but average compared with its contemporaries. I find I get numb to such things after a while, and just content myself with enjoying what there is to enjoy from it. Better than waiting for a ship that looks as if it'll never come in. When medical shows with their pick of decent medical advisers declare that "X-rays ruled out concussion", I give up any hope. If they can't get that one small thing right, what expectations shall I hold for shows where science is supposedly the lifeblood? Well, I've simply stopped holding any at all. There were enjoyable bits. I thought those hand weapons were a fresh idea. I liked the Eagles, even if there are strategic problems with using freighters as fighters. Those little communications devices they used (visual communications at one end, electronic key at the other) seemed a very practical idea. The transport system around the base (the "lavender subway", I called it, because of the colour of the light in it) was well done. And people like Alan Carter and Paul were enjoyable. By the way, was it Prentis Hancock who played Paul? I've seen him in a couple of Dr. Who's ("Planet of Fear"; "The Ribos Operation"), I'm sure I've seen him before, and I'm wondering if it was in Space:1999. I thought at the time that the second-season changes were the beginning of the end, as similar changes were for Bill Bixby's "The Magician". The show was losing what steam it had had, and not even Catherine Schell made up for it. And they kept Barbara Bain!!!! Does nothing ever go right? Oh well, at least it didn't have as bleak an outlook on life as UFO did. But, as a certain Parisian gentleman would say, that's another story. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: iddic!rick@topaz.arpa (Rick Coates) Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on) Date: 26 Jun 85 20:38:11 GMT The reason that faster-than-light is acceptable is that it is explained, and has rules. This includes reactionless thrusters, for example. The explanation that Niven gives in his 'Known Space' series is that the technology was sold to us (humanity). One of the tenets of 'speculative fiction' is to assume new technology or even laws of physics, and consider how this would affect people. There was no explanation for stillsuits and I was just curious. I believe that a good sci-fi book that uses technology or science that is not part of our current knowledge should establish, and follow, some rules and limitations, not just do whatever that author feels like doing. Larry Niven discussed this in some essay in one of his collections, I don't remember the name. Rick Coates ...!tektronix!iddic!rick ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jul 85 1008-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #242 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 242 Today's Topics: Books - End of the World Stories & Book Notes, Films - The Omega Man & Back to the Future, Television - Space: 1999 & How to Fix Bad SF, Miscellaneous - Spoilers (2 msgs) & Controlling Time & Sturgeons Law & Advanced Races Coming to Earth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Jun 1985 1732-CDT From: Dan Subject: End of civilization novels > I have, in thinking of some of the books I have enjoyed >over the last few years, realized there is a small sub-genre that I >seem to enjoy. It is the one where civilization is zapped (or at >least totally screwed up) by a non-alien occurrence. So far I have >read Lucifer's Hammer, The Stand, and War Day. I am currently >reading The Floating Dragon, and have enjoyed the first half of the >book. Does anyone else enjoy this kind of Speculative Fiction? >Brendan E. Boelke I used to really enjoy this sub-genre (not to say I no longer do). One of my very, very favorite books falls into this category. I can't think of some of the others, but will look later. I definitely would recommend "Malevil" by Robert Merle. I thought it was outstanding. Dan Nichols ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 08:34 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: authors and titles of books plus the joys of re-reading Josh Susser (susser.pasa@xerox.arpa) writes >By the way, has anybody else read "Planet of Treason"? Anybody >remember who it's by? I read this quite a few years ago. At that >time, I thought it was quite good. I'd like to read it again if I >could find it. The book is by Orson Scott Card. It came out about five years ago (I think) and I also thought it was very good. I felt the premise was stretching credibility somewhat, but the story was more than good enough to make me forget about that. Jim Garnner writes >One of the oddest premises for a novel I've ever read is Fred >Hoyle's "October the First is Too Late" (possibly "October the >Second is Too Late" -- it's been years since I read it). It's October First is Too Late. Rich Strebent writes >A classic along these lines is "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and >Everything" or something close to this (my library is at home, >though there are days I wish I kept it at my office !!!). There >was a movie by the same name that was a fairly decent rendition of >the book. Another good book. It's by John D. MacDonald (of Travis Mcgee (sp?) fame). Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 1985 21:23:01 PDT Subject: The Omega Man From: Stuart Cracraft Has anyone else seen The Omega Man? This movie was based (loosely) on Richard Matheson's classic I AM LEGEND. The book is pretty good as it evokes an eerie feeling of paranoia. However, I think the movie is really a classic that has been overlooked by lay-critics and the science fiction population in general. It turns the paranoia of the book into more of a SF-suspense-melodrama. Reasons why I think it is so good: Charlton Heston plays in one of his best roles, almost a solo effort. A beautiful musical score by Ron Grainer, composer of the theme music for the 1960's TV program THE PRISONER The screenplay is tight and moves along extremely fast. Anthony Zerbe plays a really neat villain. It is in re-release this month on THE MOVIE CHANNEL and I just got a nice uncut version of it. Even after not having seen it for 10 years, I am still impressed by it Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 30 Jun 1985 19:42:18-PDT From: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Heisenberg may have slept here) Subject: Review: "Back to the Future" "Back to the Future" A film review by Roger Goun Remember all those time travel stories you gobbled up in Amazing Stories and Galaxy when you were a kid? Well, have I got a deal for you! "Back to the Future", Steven Spielberg's latest epic, pays fond tribute to almost every hackneyed skiffy time travel plot ever conceived. In addition to time travel, the film has weird devices, silly special effects, a mad scientist, a nerd, bad science, a love story, a skeptical hero, pseudo-alien monsters, and a couple of plucky girls, with some foreign terrorists and a DeLorean sports car thrown in for good measure. Fortunately, it also has humor, excitement, rock and roll, and a couple of good performances to rescue it from the oblivion it might otherwise have deserved. Marty (Michael J. Fox) is an ordinary kid in a small town who hangs out with your typical wild-eyed mad scientist. The M.S. has invented a time machine, built into the aforementioned DeLorean, in which he intends to travel into the future. As fate would have it, though, it is Marty who is transported, not into the future, but thirty years into the past. Most of the film involves his efforts to undo the changes he has accidentally made to history, and to return to 1985. He is aided by the scientist, thirty years younger, but still quite mad. Fox, who plays the young capitalistic son in NBC's sitcom "Family Ties", plays Marty strictly for laughs. He manages to convey the confusion of a teenager in a strange world, but his delivery is often too glib in the quieter scenes. The scientist (whose name I've forgotten), is incredibly corny, as a proper mad scientist should be. He overacts so badly that you can't help but smile. As is typical of Spielberg, there are a number of references to other movies scattered throughout "Back to the Future". A couple of attaboys to the first person who spots the obscure reference to "Dr. Strangelove" in the first few minutes of the action. If you can suspend your disbelief well enough and long enough, "Back to the Future" will keep you breathing fast and laughing often. On the zero- to five-star scale, it gets a three. Go see it. Roger Goun ARPA:goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP:{allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS:Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Maya and shape changing. Date: 28 Jun 85 08:38:26 GMT Conservation of mass is a false concept since mass can be converted into energy ,thus conservation of energy is the true law. Any energy changes can be made in the fourth spacial dimension without nukeing anyone. The only difference between Garth and Maya is her ability to exchange mass in this way. Plenty of energy is freely available and any excess energy can be dumped. Well that's my theory. Anyone have any ideas as how Garth could do this? Can Maya only do this because she is an alien? How many strange alien powers did Spock use? All this and much more in the next unexiting installment... Andy T. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: How to fix bad sci-fi(and boring sci-fi?).Blakes Seven. Date: 28 Jun 85 09:18:23 GMT brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >V: This is one of the easiest to fix. When I watched the original >2 part mini-series, I thought, "Wow, this is great!" Then >suddenly, in the second episode, they turned out to be lizards in >human suits coming to eat us and steal our water. This may be the easiest to fix but basicly V is boring. An alien race out to conquer the Earth has been kicked around for years. It is proof of how difficult it is to produce an original tv sci-fi program nowadays. Even Galactica was interesting at times (no, I have not lost my senses) and 1999 was rarely boring. What on Earth (or Moon) is a 'spindizzie'? And now for something completely different..BLAKE'S SEVEN. I have been told that this hasn't been shown in the U.S. yet but the networks should come to their senses soon. It was great, some episodes were straight S.T. rip offs but otherwise the show was superb. The plots were ingenious with lots of twists but you would have to see it to understand. The last series (as usual) wasn't as good. I think this deserves some discussion ,at least over here. Andy T. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 27 Jun 1985 07:04:51-PDT From: moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN From: 381-2102) Subject: More on spoilers It is interesting that there are two entirely separate discussions going on in SFL which relate so well: the one on the concept of spoilers, and the one on Thomas Covenant. Lee Gold's quote "Now he was Emperor of the galaxy, but what did it all mean? ..." is something that I appreciate finding in books. (The best current example of finding that type of thing in books is in Bio of a Space Tyrant, by Piers Anthony. His epilogues give away nearly every major plot element, which is something I value in last pages of books). I read books for enjoyment. Just that, nothing more. (Sorry Davis Tucker, but I am not looking for *DEEP MEANING* or *GREAT ART* when I read, just a few moments of pleasure for my $2.95 plus sales tax. My wife, an ex-English teacher, often comments on this). The main reason I want to know what happens is so that I can figure out whether I want to read it in the first place. If I am not going to feel good when I finish, I won't read it. Think back to the Lensman series. Whatever else those books may be, (to me) they are *FUN*. A good read, enjoyable adventure, and I feel good when I finish. Having the hero be a contemptible cur (in Thomas Covenants case), or having the hero lose everything with no hope of winning (again in Thomas Covenant, but also in several of Stephen Kings books, notably 'Salems Lot and Cujo), is simply not enjoyable. If I want examples of incompetent or contemptible people, or even good people who lose with no hope, all I have to do is turn on the evening news. Ken Moreau ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 85 08:34 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: the joys of re-reading moreau%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: > To me, knowing every line of a book, every plot twist, knowing who > lives, who dies, which people manage to get together (if anyone > manages to), is the only way that I can enjoy it. Otherwise the > nervous tension of simply *NOT KNOWING* what is going to happen > seriously detracts from any pleasure that I might have gotten out > of it. > In fiction you never know if the next paragraph will not have > the aliens landing and blowing away ever character you know about > so far. . . . the tension of watching (waiting) for that almost > ruins my enjoyment of any book the first time through. One is forced to wonder how you can stand life? Last time I checked, most people have no idea what will happen next in their life or the lives of their friends. Admittedly, more people will have a tendency to get blown away (or have some other aweful thing happen to them) in fiction than in real life, but awful things do happen in real life. I'm not flaming you for your opinion, but it does raise some interesting questions... Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: SF on controlling Time Date: 28 Jun 85 06:26:01 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >The Pluterday concept is carried one step further in Dayworld, >Phillip Jose Farmer's newest novel (only out in hard cover as far >as I know). The premise is that overpopulation has grown so >rampant that the people of earth have been split into seven parts, >each of which are allowed out only one day of the week. (The rest >of the time they're in suspended animation.) Thus there are >Tuesday people, Wednesday people, and so on. There are also >criminals called Daybreakers who don't go into suspended animation >when they're supposed to. Not the usual sort of thing you think of >for "time control", but still a controlled time situation. > Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo This may be a new novel, but I'm sure I read a short story a long time ago with exactly this situation. I don't remember much, but it's a man (say, a Wednesday person) who sees a picture of this woman who uses the same room on her day (say, Tuesday) and decides he's madly in love and wants to change days to meet her. Anyone remember this? Muffy ------------------------------ From: kallis@pen.DEC Subject: re: Sturgeon's Law Date: 27 Jun 85 19:28:45 GMT >There have been references to Theodore Sturgeon recently, and also >a few citations on the famous "Sturgeon's Law". I would like to >trace down the actual origin ..." I cannot say whether it was the *first* time Ted uttered it, but I first heard the Law enunciated by him when he was the guest at a meeting of a New York City fan group in 1956 (or 1957 -- I didn't mark down the date at the time). I was a college kid at the time, and in those days, we were all wrapped up in the idea of the Sanctity of *all* SF. I'll try to reconstruct this as close as I can. After a few opening remarks, Ted said, "People are always criticizing the quality of science fiction. Well, I have to say, honestly, that 90 percent of science fction is crap." He paused for a second, which allowed us all to register shock, then he went on: "But then, 90 percent of *all* literatue is crap. However, science fiction is the only form of literature that is judged by its crap." please recall that in the mid- to late 1950s, "crap" was a lot stronger word than it is nowadays. And if it wasn't the very first time he made that utterance publicly, it had to be one of the early versions. Over the years, it became broadened and refined. The shock value was there: having a leading science fiction writer apparently biting the hand that fed him (though saving it with a sort of judo-twist in the next sentence) was to us in those days like discovering that our parents were hookers, or worse. Sturgeon's Law has a great deal of validity, and there are theoreticians who have tried to extend it beyond its bounds. It was meant to apply to literary works, not to the cosmos -- although certainly elements of that are, as Winston Smith might have said, double-plus ungood. But even the Zoroastrians and Manachees gave the continuum a 50-50 split. Steve Kallis, Jr. ------------------------------ From: watmath!bstempleton@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get : slaves Date: 27 Jun 85 15:49:45 GMT You bet they would come for slaves. Just because we think we are advanced morally past the desire for slaves, doesn't mean other races would follow the same track. Highly advanced technology can do much, but it never replaces personal service. (Of course, if you can make an android with a turing-test AI program then there is an argument that this is a living being and should not be enslaved, too) At any rate, until you have perfect AI, nothing can match a slave as the ultimate luxury. And with a cousin race they can even be used for sexual purposes. Slaves are cheap - they can produce enough to feed and house themselves and you can take all the rewards. Yes, they would come for slaves. As for water, no chance. Even if your own planet were somehow to "dry out", water is very common. If not, hydrogen is the most common and oxygen is plentiful too. And if you did have to leave your star system, you wouldn't come to Earth to drag up the liquid water from the bottom of a gravity well. There are whole asteroids and planetoids made of ice out there that you could easily steal. Why risk war to take it from Earth? Brad Templeton - Waterloo, Ont. (519) 886-7304 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Jul 85 1029-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #243 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 1 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 243 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Dick & Hogan & Lee & Rand & The Oz Books & Alice Books & Upcoming Books, Television - Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - Spoilers & Advance Races Coming to Earth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: h-sc1!friedman@topaz.arpa (dawn friedman) Subject: Re: Ford Prefect Date: 29 Jun 85 21:35:24 GMT > I took the joke to be that no name is "especially > inconspicuous" - i think that is amusing in itself. I mean, how > seriously can you take a book with statements like "the ship hung > in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't" and "the And I thought I wasn't going to answer anything today... I can't resist pointing out that this particular line is not only valuable as an inversion of the expected, but as an extremely (at least to me) vivid simile. The picture of bricks hanging in the sky instantly appears in the mind, despite its non-correspondence with reality, and conveys clearly the image of the impossible Vogon ships. It was when I found this line, in fact, that I realized that the author was NOT just a smug, self-indulgent weirdness apostle, but quite a good writer. I realized that I could go on with the book without the fear of reaching the end but not the point. I think the analogy with Carroll is well taken, precisely because of this element of artistry as well as insanity. dsf (Dawn Sharon/the Speaker) I forgot the first analogy that comes to my mind: Oscar Wilde's "Her hair went quite gold with grief" is different from Thurber's indictment of typosetters, "A stitch in time saves none" because the inversion is also a meaningful statement about society (not a very deep one) as opposed to a statement created for the sake of the inversion alone. (Or a statement unintentionally created, like the one that set Thurber off in the first place: the misprinting of a line of his so that it became, "The gates of Hell shall now prevail". But I digress, or didn't anyone notice?) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jun 85 21:04:11 EDT Subject: Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa The Mabou Mines Theatre Company is doing an adaptation of Philip K. Dick's ``Flow my tears, the policeman said'' here in Boston at the Boston Shakespeare Company. The MMTC, a New York City theatre troupe, combines high-tech histrionics with sound dramatic skills. A couple of the people I saw it with remarked that parts reminded them of Laurie Anderson. Everyone I saw it with enjoyed it, and I didn't notice anyone in the audience leaving the theatre mumbling disatisfiedly under their breath, which, considering the experimental nature of the piece, is kind of remarkable. Also, I saw it with a couple of people who had never read the book (or any other PKD), and they felt that they understood what was going on in the play. They've combined slides, electronic music, and action on the stage, into a reasonably good adaptation of the book (which means, of course, that it's messy and loud and confusing and the audience is always disoriented, which I think is pretty faithful to the original novel (I'm not sure even PKD knew what was going on at times...)). While the production is a bit uneven in parts (some parts seem a bit slow, others have simply TOO MUCH going on at once, making the action on the stage too chaotic, and making it impossible to hear some of the reasonably important dialogue), the acting was consistently good, and the ending more than makes up for any flaws in the directing. WOW, what a lyrical, beautiful, moving, ending--it's a shame PKD is not around to see it. It's kind of a musical (``There is always someone in the pizzeria...''), in a disorienting sort of way. It's being in developed in Boston, for a later run in New York. With luck it will become a hit Broadway play and then a movie. Sure beats ``Bladerunner'' as a faithful adaptation of a PKD novel... ------------------------------ From: stew%lhasa@harvard.ARPA Date: 28 Jun 85 23:17 EDT Subject: Hogan's THRICE UPON A TIME Jamie Zawinski mentioned this book, and, having recently reread it, I want to add my recommendation. The characters are real, the prose is eminently readable, and the science, including the theory of time that Jamie mentioned, is amazing. He even manages to make a pretty pointed political statement, but more on that would be a spoiler. In my opinion, Hogan's THRICE UPON A TIME is a must read. Stew Rubenstein rubenstein@harvard.arpa {ihnp4, ut-sally, seismo} ! harvard ! rubenstein ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (Diaz) Subject: Tanith Lee Date: 18 Jun 85 16:04:16 GMT Tanith Lee is a British writer who leans to sword/sorcery and fantasy (excellent writing, I might add.) However, about a year ago, I acquired a copy of her book THE SILVER METAL LOVER, and loved it. I have seen lists of titles by her that might be in the same genre (ie, not s/s); in particular, DON'T BITE THE SUN, and SAPPHIRE WINE. I haven't been able to find them! Has anyone read them? How were they? Jean Marie Diaz ------------------------------ Date: Thu 27 Jun 85 20:29:56-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: Ayn Rand's works >> book but also of THE FOUNTAINHEAD, Rand's SF novella, and her >> play. It may > >I thought I'd read every piece of fiction she ever wrote, but >perhaps I'm wrong. Are you referring to ANTHEM? As far as I know, Ayn Rand wrote five long pieces of fiction: 3 novels: Atlas_Shrugged, The_Fountainhead, and We_the_Living; a novella: Anthem (about as much SF as Brave_New_World); and a play: ``The Night of January 16th''. Evan Kirshenbaum ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA UUCP: ...!ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jun 85 14:47:10 EDT From: Kevin.Dowling@CMU-RI-ROVER Subject: OZ Dover Publications has a version of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz that has the original illustrations by W. W. Denslow. Baum and Denslow also collaborated on Dot and Merryland but apparently had a falling out and John Rea Neill took over for the rest of the Oz books. The dover book has an intro by Martin Gardner which discusses the background of Baum and the Oz stories. Also there is a Baum fantasy bibleography at the end of the book which has a brief synopsis of each book Baum wrote. Ruth Plumly THompson, as mentioned, wrote 19 oz books,3 by Neill, 2 by Jack Snow and 1 by Rachel Cosgrove. There was also one by Colonel Frank Joslyn Baum, Baum's son. (The Laughing Dragon) which is a scarce collector's item. Before The Wiz came to broadway, Baum wrote the book and lyrics for a musical comedy in 1902 which was a big hit. They changed Toto to a calf named Imogene though, cause it was hard for an actor to diguise himself as a little black dog! I have not read most of the oz books, but as I glanced through the bibliography, I enjoyed seeing a number of SF concepts in the stories including, tunnels through the center of the earth, undersea cities, automatons, teleportation, Baum had other books dealing with halting of time (American Fairy Tales). Baum actaully wrote a SF novel called the Master Key, definitely dated, but interesting where the Demon of Electricity provides a boy with six electrical wonders. In Lost Princess of Oz, The Pink Bear is a wind-up automaton capable of answering any questions., In the Tin Woodsman of Oz there is a Chopfyte, a composite man assembled from parts of the Tin Woodsmn and Tin Soldiers original bodies and what is termed an interesting conversation between the Tin Woodman and his original head! I enjoyed the Return to Oz greatly. The Claymation effects were fabulous. I think this was the same person who did the prize winning claymation "Closed Mondays" which was on the Internation Animation Festival (PBS series) which was hosted by Jean Marsh (Princess Momba) nivek ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jun 85 22:13:34 EDT Subject: ``Alice through the eye of a needle,'' Gilbert Adair From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa After seeing the positive review of this book in sf-lovers, I rushed right out to buy it. Nano-review: read Miss Manners, instead. Micro-review: wait 'til it comes out in paperback, and get it to read to your four-year-old kid. Review: a pale imitation of Lewis Carroll. Too many authorial intrusions in the manner of: ``I sure hope YOU understand what I mean, dear Reader, I certainly don't!'' Not enough puns. There's some good level confusion stuff (particularly the Emu's typographical poem), but overall I found the whole thing somewhat tiresome. I think Douglas Hofstadter should take up writing ``Alice'' books. Or maybe Rudy Rucker. Or maybe they should collaborate (Rucker could restrain Hofstadter's cute-glands and Hofstadter could restrain Rucker's glands (although a soft-core Alice might be kind of interesting... Wasn't there a hard-core Alice done once?). Maybe Martin Gardner should drop by occasionally while they're at it. Or Dan Dennett. I remember a long time ago the ``Chicago Seed'' (probably the most beautiful of the underground papers) ran a parody of Alice in Wonderland where a good deal of the wonder was chemically stimulated. ------------------------------ From: utai!perelgut@topaz.arpa (Stephen Perelgut) Subject: Upcoming books (from July 1985 LOCUS) Date: 28 Jun 85 18:12:40 GMT Anthony, Pier "Race Against Time" Auel, Jean "Mammoth Hunters" (Clan of Cave Bear) this year Bischoff, David "Wraith Board" (The Gaming Magi) Chalker, Jack L. "The Messiah Choice" HC May Dickson, Gordon "Forward!" Harrison, Harry "One Step From Earth" Sept Robinson, Kim Stanley "The Memory of Whiteness" HC Sept Robinson, Spider "Callahan's Secret" turned in Silverberg, Robert "Tom O'Bedlam" HC July Silverberg, Robert "Sailing to Byzantium" Tepper, Sheri S. "Jinian Footseer" (Land of the True Game) Sept Van Vogt, A.E. "Null-A Three" HC July Jean Auel is suing the producers of the movie, "Clan of the Cave Bear", for not giving her final approval as contracted. Story line changed and inaccurate. Seeking $40 million damages (including $500K for delays to third book in series) Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute, Univ. of Toronto USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!utcsri!uturing!perelgut CSNET: perelgut@Toronto ------------------------------ From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Re: Space: 1999 books Date: 27 Jun 85 20:43:00 GMT From Bob Gray (bobg@cstvax.UUCP): > There is a book (by E.C. TUBB, I think his name was, I can't > remember the title) which tells a story made up of two episodes > from the series and a story claimed to be a possible "Final > episode". This was writen after the series had ended and explains > what actually happened in the explosion. ... As I remember the > moon was squeezed by the explosion and forced into a strange > fourth-dimensional orbit. This is how it got out of the solar > system so fast. The moon eventually ends up back in it's original > (present) orbit with a convenient explanation for all the large > number of planets they encountered. and from Alan Greig : > Although the TV series never really did give a credible > explanation for the speed with which they seemed to wander all > over the universe, there was an associated book which told a > complete story from the moons blasting out of orbit right through > to an eventual return to earth many tens of years later. I can't > recall the author but the atmosphere created by the book and the > far better scientific accuracy was way above anything the TV > series ever managed. I won't spoil the ending though for those who > may want to read it. I don't know what these guys have been reading, but I don't think it was Space: 1999, unless it was a British publication that never made it over here. I don't think that's likely because I have gotten things directly from British dealers at conventions. If such a book does exist, I'd love to find it. The show was novelized and some extra tie-in novels were written between the two seasons. I have all of the following books and I checked them over last weekend, none have the plot described above. The Making of Space: 1999 by Tim Heald Series 1 novelizations: (all episodes except Earthbound, these weren't done as short stories, like the Star Trek episode novelizations, but add connections from one episode to the next) 1. Breakaway - E. C. Tubb Breakaway A Matter of Life and Death A Ring Around the Moon The Black Sun 2. Moon Odyssey - John Rankine Alpha Child The Last Sunset Voyager's Return Another Time, Another Place 3. The Space Guardians - Brain Ball Missing Link Force of Life Guardian of Piri 4. Collision Course - E. C. Tubb Collision Course Full Circle End of Eternity Death's Other Dominion 5. Lunar Attack - John Rankine War Games The Troubled Spirit The Last Enemy Space Brain 6. Astral Quest - John Rankine The Infernal Machine Mission of the Darians Dragon's Domain The Testament of Arkadia Original novels, all end with the moon continueing through space 7. Alien Seep - E. C. Tubb 8. Android Planet - John Rankine 9. Rogue Planet - E. C. Tubb 10. Phoenix of Megaron - John Rankine Series 2 noveliztions: (all episodes except The Taybor) all written by Michael Butterworth 1. Planets of Peril The Metamorph The AB Chrysalis The Rules of Luton New Adam, New Eve 2. Mind-Breaks of Space Brian the Brain The Mark of Archanon The Catacombs of the Moon One Moment of Humanity 3. The Space-Jackers Seed of Destruction A Matter of Balance The Exiles The Beta Cloud 4. The Psychomorph The Lambda Factor The Bringers of Wonder 5. The Time Fighters Space Warp Dorzak Devil's Planet The Seance Spector 6. The Edge of the Infinite All that Glisters Journey to Where The Dorcons The Immunity Syndrome - ended with the possibility that the Alphans stayed to settle this planet Mary Anne Espenshade {allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Telling the Plot Date: 26 Jun 85 22:49:23 GMT As has been commented, if a book is not worthwhile after one has been told the plot, it was not worthwhile before. But that does not mean not knowing the plot has no value. Many of us *enjoy* the suspense of not knowing what comes next, and this adds to our enjoyment the first time we read a book (if we are otherwise enjoying it). There is nothing wrong with not enjoying this; many people obviously do not. Indeed, whoever started this discussion specifically disliked the suspense of not knowing what was going to happen. But you should be aware that giving away the plot does detract from the pleasure for some of us, and insert spoiler warnings as called for. After all, no one's enjoyment is diminished by seeing the words "spoiler warning" in an article. ------------------------------ From: ur-laser!tomk@topaz.arpa (Tom Kessler) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get : slaves Date: 28 Jun 85 20:17:22 GMT Also if you take water from asteroids (in the form of ice) you don't have to pay the penalty in energy for overcoming gravity. Heck why not just tow a couple of "stroids" home. Tom Kessler {allegra |seismo }!rochester!ur-laser!tomk Laboratory for Laser Energetics Phone: (716)- 275 - 5101 250 East River Road Rochester, New York 14623 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 85 1221-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #244 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 3 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 244 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Mid-year Landmark, Books - Bass & Donaldson & Sladek (2 msgs) & The Oz Books & SF Poll, Television - Star Trek & Roddenbery & Battlestar Galactica, Miscellaneous - How to Fix Bad SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 3 Jul 85 12:10:41 EST From: Saul Subject: Mid-year landmark On my way in to work the other day I realized that here it is the middle of the year and already I have done 243 issues of SF-LOVERS! I sincerely hope you have had as much fun reading them as I have had. If the amount of mail pouring in continues, by the end of the year I will have done nearly 500 digests (either that or my fingers I would like to also take this opportunity to remind all of you that the sf-lovers archive here at Rutgers has a lot of stuff that you may enjoy reading. We have all of the digests since the very beginning of course, but there are some other contributions as well. T: Down-in-flames.txt ;Larry Niven destroys his universe Drwho.guide ;episode guide to Dr. Who Galactica.guide ;guide to Battlestar Galactica Hitch-Hikers-Guide-to-the-net.txt ;a very funny parody Hugos.txt ;a listing of all the Hugo winners Klingonaase.txt ;how to talk to a Klingon Lost-in-space.guide ;need I say it? Nebulas.txt ;all the Nebula award winners Outerlimits.guide ;another episode guide Star-trek.guide ;yet another The-Enchanted-Duplicator.txt ;an interesting read to say the least (look ma, no spoilers!) Twilight-zone.guide ;and still another episode guide All of these files are available to readers via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP (PLEASE, no requests for mailing them to individuals. The time I can devote to this is very limited!). And now, on with the show...... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jun 85 20:39:11 EDT Subject: The Eudaemonic Pie, by Thos. A. Bass From: dm@bbn-vax.arpa What happens when a bunch of techno-hippies decide to drop out of grad school to take on roulette, armed with a KIM microcomputer strapped to their waist? The Eudaemonic Pie. This book is too good not to be mentioned in the sf-lovers' forum, and it contains a lot that would qualify it as reasonably good s.f., if it were only fiction: a bunch of Competent Men and Women, venture into a bizarre alien society, where they apply their technical know-how to a problem. This is the story of how they solved the problem, written in a gripping, lucid style reminiscent of Larry Niven unspoiled by Jerry Pournelle. AND IT'S NOT THE FIRST BOOK IN A TRILOGY! Pick this book up in the bookstore, and read the first few pages of the first chapter or introduction and see for yourself. Wow, what fun. ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Wounded Land series (Daughter of Regals) Date: 27 Jun 85 14:58:29 GMT > I think the title is _Daughter of Royals_ > Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) Close, but no cigar. The title is "Daughter of Regals", and is indeed an excellent read. Especially the title story, and two others, "Ser Visals Tale" and "Worthy of the Angel". "Worthy of the Angel" in particular is quite Zelaznyeqeue. Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 85 16:50:12 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: TIK-TOK by John Sladek John Sladek's TIK-TOK (DAW, c1983, DAW edition June 1985) is a robot whose 'asimov' circuits don't seem to function quite right. Everyone in Tik-Tok's cheesy future takes it for granted that robots can't misbehave, which is just as well because without these obedient slaves their tottering civilization would collapse instantly. Tik-Tok can lie, steal and kill without the least suspicion coming upon him, because who would expect that a mere robot could perform these quintessentially human acts? Tik-Tok's narrative is an out-and-out farce, with ample slapstick and an abundance of parodies. The story alternates between Tik-Tok's grim upbringing (he was raised on a Mississippi plantation and taught to sing excruciatingly bad imitation Stephen Foster songs) and his brutal present (as he discovers that society rewards his outrageously criminal behavior). Woven through the story is a dark and bitter cynicism, and many of the laughs will also make you cringe; when I finished the book I was left with a distinctly unpleasant aftertaste... Of course this is exactly the kind of tension which Sladek intended to produce, but that doesn't make it any easier to assimilate. In the end I'm not sure whether I enjoyed the book, and I'm not even sure whether I was supposed to... You takes your chances if you buy it. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: rochester!rick@topaz.arpa (Rick Floyd) Subject: Re: TIK-TOK by John Sladek Date: 1 Jul 85 02:03:45 GMT The future described in TIK-TOK is not a place that I would want to live. However, that doesn't affect my appreciation of Sladek's ability to depict it. TIK_TOK is one of the more interesting dystopias I have seen in recent years. But then, I have always had something of a weak spot for farcical worlds. rick floyd rick@rochester.ARPA seismo!rochester!rick ------------------------------ From: dcc1!unixcorn@topaz.arpa (math.c) Subject: Re: Oz books Date: 29 Jun 85 14:59:12 GMT gjerawlins@watdaisy.UUCP (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) writes: >unixcorn@dcc1.UUCP (math.c) writes: >>year cycle that was so profitable for them. Ruth Plumly Thompson >>fit the bill perfectly, she had grown up on the OZ books, was >>already an author of childrens books and she needed the money to >>support her mother and invalid sister. The first book she wrote >>was published under Baum's and her name (to promote continuity) >>but was all her own work. > > The "Reader's Guide to Fantasy" - Searls, Meacham & >Franklin pg 27 states that "The Royal Book of Oz" (her first) was a >work up by her of notes that Baum left his demise, so the >accreditation would be proper (that is if this is correct - i have >no information to the contrary). Sorry, should have posted my sources in the first article.. From 'The OZ Scrapbook' by David L. Greene and Dick Martin--- "Actually it was entirely the work of Miss Thompson. Despite Baum's statement that he left material for the 1921 book, Miss Thompson used no Baum notes for 'The Royal Book'." Also, in reply to another poster, Ruth Plumly Thompson was NOT the daughter of L.Frank Baum. unixcorn (alias m. gould) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 1 Jul 85 02:56:39-CDT From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Series and Rawlins' List ^^^^^ Overlaps in Rawlins' List ^^^^^ In hopes of forstalling umpteen submissions on the topic, here is a list of some quasi-duplications. This does not consider stories simply set in the same universe (e.g., Niven's, Schmitz', Cordwainer Smith's, Lieber's, Varley's, etc.) as, ipso facto, "series". SERIES and their COMPONENTS Adams: 5 The Hitch Hikers' Guide to the Galaxy 4 The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy SERIES Asprin: 4 The Myth Adventures SERIES 3 Another Fine Myth Bradley: 4 The Darkover SERIES 2 Thendara House Brust: 7 The Vlad Taltos BOOKS 2 Jhereg Dickson: 5 Tactics of Mistake 4 Soldier, Ask Not 2 The Childe CYCLE 2 Dorsai! Garrett: 3 Too Many Magicians 3 The Lord Darcy SERIES LeGuin: 2 The Earthsea TRILOGY 2 A Wizard of Earthsea Leiber: 2 The Fafhard and the Grey Mouser SERIES 2 Swords and Deviltry 2 Swords Against Death 2 The Swords of Lankhmar May: 3 The Saga of the Pliocene Exile TETRALOGY 3 The Many-Coloured Land McCaffrey: 4 The Dragonriders of Pern TRILOGY 2 Dragonflight McCaffrey: 2 The Harper Hall of Pern TRILOGY 2 Dragonsinger Piper: 5 Little Fuzzy 3 The Little Fuzzy SERIES Smith: 3 The Skylark SERIES 2 The Skylark of Space Varley: 2 The Titan SERIES 4 Titan Zelazny: 5 The Chronicles of Amber PENTOLOGY 5 Nine Princes in Amber SERIES COMPONENTS Cherryh: 2 The Dreamstone 2 The Tree of Swords and Jewels Harrison: 2 The Stainless Steel Rat 2 The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat Laumer: 3 Retief at Large 2 Retief's War MacAvoy: 3 Damiano 2 Damiano's Lute 2 Raphael SINGLETONS from SERIES Clement: 9 Mission of Gravity Clement: 3 Needle Farmer: 8 To Your Scattered Bodies Go Herbert: 23 Dune Robinson: 5 Callahan's Crosstime Saloon Stasheff: 4 The Warlock in Spite of Himself ------------------------------ From: utflis!brown@topaz.arpa (Susan Brown) Subject: Re: Star Trek: 1**35 Date: 28 Jun 85 21:53:58 GMT Boebert.SCOMP@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >The "one to the 35th power" line is from "Court Martial," and is >uttered by Spock. He's not under duress; he's explaining how much >he has turned up the gain on an audio sensor, so as to detect the >heartbeat of...well, any more would be a spoiler. And Roddenberry often cites it as an example of a gross error that slipped by him. Certainly was. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 01 Jul 85 02:34:56 EDT From: bader (miles bader) @ cmu-psy-a This is not actually from Herr Bader; it is from a friend. 1. "The Questor Tapes" was a very interesting movie, certainly one that wasn't too predictable. Remember, though, that Questor and his long line of creator/predecessors (drat! i can't remember the name of the one before him) were robots, and as such isn't *really* advanced-race-looking-over-us , but more like advanced-race-leaves- self-perpetuating-robots-to-guide-us. Of course, I merely make a statement; I am certainly not quibbling with anyone's choice of words. 2. I think there were *2* different movies by the name "Genesis II." If I remember correctly, one of them starred Mariette (sp?) Hartley (with two navels, both inzies) was watchable, and the other I found sort of boring. 3. As for "Spectre," it is one of my favorite movies, along with "Equinox." It did indeed star Robert Culp, of Greatest American Hero (no comment on that series) fame, as a guy who went around reading books like the necronomicon (I don't remember if he actually mentioned THAT one..) and banishing demons. A great scene was when a rather attractive young lady appeared at his house, supposedly the sister of his friend. She started putting all the charms on Herr Culp, but he stayed cool until he picked up one of your classic "rare ancient banned tomes of arcane knowledge" and threw it at the girl, exhorting something wonderful in one of your classic "rare and ancient arcane languages." When it hit, she went up in flames, and Culp explained that he knew she was a succubus, because the guy's REAL sister had broken her glasses the day before or some such. Culp and his friend end up in an old mansion somewhere in the England - Wales area, and eventually discover the imprisoning place of Asmodeus or Astaroth (it's been years -- forgive me), etc.... If someone out there would be nice enough to answer two questions for me, I would be grateful: 1) Was Genesis II the movie with the electric cattle prod things? 2) I have seen the movie "The Dunwich Horror" which was supposed to be based on Lovecraft's story of the same name, but really wasn't. (Stella Stevens in a Lovecraft movie......), but a book I have says that there have been "at least four" movies made out of Lovecraft. Anyone know what they were? Back in the mid seventies somewhere there was a movie called YOG (also released under some other name) which involved this alien energy life form than hitchhiked to Earth on a "space capsule" and proceded to throw all sorts of huge monsters at the nearest land, including a giant crab and finally a huge octopus. This movie seems sort of Lovecraft - inspired to me. Does anyone know if this was intentional? Has anyone ever seen the album of Lovecraft that Roddy McDowell did? Anthony A. Datri AD0R@cmu-cc-tb or maybe ad0r%cmu-cc-tb@cmu-cs-a or just bader@cmpsya ------------------------------ From: omen!caf@topaz.arpa (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX) Subject: Re: Space 1999 : SF-on-TV in general Date: 29 Jun 85 12:25:50 GMT jam@dcl-cs.UUCP (John A. Mariani) writes: >... According to that rag, B-G was the best thing *ever* and loved >by all. So maybe some of you good-guys in the states would like to >let us Europeans know what the true feelings re B-G were. BattleStar Garlicta had its share of hooters, nost notably "Fire in Space" where a fire is raging out on control in the BattleStar. I shan't ruin your fun by pointing out the obvious. B-G mostly shows up these days as "movies", each of which is edited from two or three one hour shows. They are worth watching, no matter how variable the quality. Of course, I must warn you that I enjoy Bockaroo Bonzai, Dr. Who, Star Warz, Dune, Star Trek, Outer Limits, Godzilla, and many episodes of Twilight Zone. But, none of them hold a candle to the creation scene in Bride of Frankenstein. Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf CIS:70715,131 Omen Technology Inc 17505-V NW Sauvie Island Road Portland OR 97231 Voice: 503-621-3406 Modem: 503-621-3746 (Hit CR's for speed detect) ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: How to fix bad SF Date: 29 Jun 85 02:08:20 GMT brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes: >Now this is an interesting problem. Several shows have come out >with reasonable acting, drama, comedy, effects, production and >REALLY STUPID SCRIPTS. What I would like to know is how to >communicate to producers like Glen Larson et al how to fix their >series so they become classics instead of turkeys. >Starlost: > The premise was fine, the execution was terrible on this one. >There have been lots of good "lost ark in space" novels, so they >have no excuses. But here you hit the nail *right* on the head, Brad! *They* do not need excuses; *they* have probably NEVER read any of the "lost ark in space" novels! *They* are NOT SF writers or SF lovers -- they just do not care! Interesting that your comment is connected with the StarLost, a show created by Harlan Ellison, who does care. Its the guys like Larson who screw up concepts. If you're interested, get a copy of "Phoenix Without Ashes" by Ed Bryant, based on Ellison's pilot script. It includes an article by Ellison describing the screw-up of that pilot. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: watmath!bstempleton@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: How to fix bad sci-fi Date: 28 Jun 85 16:35:38 GMT I still say you can't have good *interstellar* adventure without FTL. Sure you can fly planets and ark ships on long missions, but that's really just one society, and there is not interstellar commerce or meeting. I won't go so far as to say it's all impossible, but about the only way you could pull it off would be with ships that use artificial gravity to pull 1000 gs, and have no concern about the rest of society since it all vanishes behind them. Better to use FTL. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software, Waterloo, Ont. (519) 884-7473 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 85 1227-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #245 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 3 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 245 Today's Topics: Films - Cocoon vs Lifeforce, Miscellaneous - Spoilers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: "Cocoon" and "Lifeforce" (long) Date: 26 Jun 85 08:23:04 GMT I saw "Lifeforce" and "Cocoon" on the same day (plus two Japanese movies in between, but that's another story), and they've got my vote for improbable double feature of the summer. That they were released on the same day is almost bizarre. Consider: "Lifeforce" is a tale of malevolent aliens who come down to earth and suck the life out of people. "Cocoon" is the story of benevolent aliens who come down to earth and rejuvenate people. "Lifeforce" models itself on "Alien" and "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", while "Cocoon" decorously steals from "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and "ET". Here we have representatives of two of the more popular film science fiction themes, duking it out toe to toe. "Cocoon" is the winner by a knockout. When you come right down to it, neither film has an ounce of originality to it. Scenes and motifs are stolen left and right from earlier films. You can have a lot of fun at either one watching specifically for where you've seen this bit or that shot before. "Cocoon's" idea of being breathtakingly original is to use old people instead of kids. This kind of twist is the stuff of legendary (or is that infamous?) Hollywood meetings, where some guy wearing gold chains and a loud shirt with an open collar jumps up and shouts, "I've got it!" "Lifeforce" doesn't have any intention at all of being original, either. Not one element is new, not one twist appears that we don't expect. Faced with such a stunning display of uninventiveness in script and story, "Lifeforce" and "Cocoon" must get by on style. Here's where "Cocoon" pulls out in front. Ron Howard, director of "Cocoon", really knows how to make an old turn look new again. As my mind tucked away instances of things "Cocoon" was doing over again, it also noted, "but that's a very interesting variation". Howard doesn't have a strong personal style, but he does have a lot of intelligence and a feel for what will and will not work. His last couple of films have reminded me a bit of those great old Hollywood hacks, Michael Curtiz and Victor Fleming. No one writes dissertations about them or scholarly articles analyzing their style, but if you made up a list of your ten favorite films, there's a good chance that one or more films by each of these gentlemen would appear. (Curtiz, among many other films, directed "Casablanca" and "Yankee Doodle Dandy" and co-directed "The Adventures of Robin Hood", my own choice of the most beautiful color film ever made. Fleming had a very good year in 1939, when he directed "The Wizard of Oz" and "Gone With the Wind".) Their hallmark, like many other studio directors, was that their films were competent, professional jobs which drew from the material, not their personalities. Howard looks like the same kind of director. He knows what can be done to make material fly, even if it isn't material that he feels deeply for. (A good example of the other kind of great director is Steven Spielberg, whose films are intensely personal. Alfred Hitchcock and John Ford are the classic examples.) "Lifeforce" was directed by Tobe Hooper, whose one undisputed positive credit is "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre". (He received credit for directing "Poltergeist", but rumor states that Spielberg had as much or more to do with how the film came out.) Based on this, one would expect that Hooper would play to his strengths. He knows horror. He knows how to build up a shock scene, he knows how much he has to show an audience and how much he should suggest without showing. He knows when to build up suspense and when to back off. Alas, Hooper rarely chooses to play "Lifeforce" as a horror movie with science fiction overtones, but rather as a science fiction film which occasionally dips into horror. The result is a few good horror scenes and a lot of mediocre sf. Hooper even shortchanges some of the horror scenes, playing them almost perfunctorily. If he was trying to demonstrate his range, his ability to work outside of the horror genre, and this does seem to be his goal, he has failed. He should have stolen even more from "Alien". The difference between the two films can be seen at almost any level, really, from the script on up. The script of "Lifeforce" is badly constructed, by any standard. We start out on a space shuttle out examining Halley's comet. They discover an alien spacecraft. Now, seeing as how the craft was obviously designed by H.R. Geiger, and that someone on the shuttle must have seen "Alien", you'd think that extreme caution would be the order of the day. Well, no. Ok, the shuttle crew does something really stupid and we're prepared to see them get their's, in best horror film fashion. At this point though, "Lifeforce" chooses to cut away to the shuttle arriving in Earth orbit, sans crew but with some passengers it didn't go up with. The film has lost invaluable shocks here, but that's forgivable. What's unforgivable is it's insistence on flashbacks to what happened, flashbacks which aren't even very well played. From this point onwards, almost every character in the film acts in an incredibly stupid manner, until the film plays out to a cheat of a climax, in that we were told that certain actions would have certain results. Those actions have totally different results, for reasons never explained but suspiciously resembling a desire to produce a sequel. Someone forgot to remind the filmmakers that one only needs to worry about a sequel if one produced a satisfactory film in the first place. The climax is flat and unsatisfying, leaving one puzzled but with little desire to see what happens next. The script of "Cocoon" doesn't cover new ground, but it does tromp the old, familiar turf in an assured manner. The dialog is crisp, the characters mostly well delineated, the gaps of logic not huge. The two related subplots, the rejuvenation of some people in a Florida home for the aged and the mysterious activities of a group of people out in the middle of the ocean, are nicely crosscut and merge in a natural fashion. While certain twists do suggest a desire to do a sequel, they modestly murmur "sequel", rather than screaming "SEQUEL!!!!!" at the top of their metaphoric lungs, as is the case in "Lifeforce". The performances in the two films are also at contrast. The cast of "Lifeforce" isn't terribly distinguished (though Frank Finlay once did a terrific Iago opposite Olivier's Othello). Steven Railsback is a very good actor, but Hollywood doesn't know what to do with him. He's been given three good parts in the last decade, Charles Manson in "Helter Skelter", the title role in "The Stunt Man", and the lead in "Lifeforce". His performance in "Lifeforce" isn't up to his other two, but that is largely because the material isn't as good. Railsback is strong in the part, and when he is speaking the lines, some of the plot inconsistencies momentarily disappear. The rest of the cast, Finlay, Peter Firth, and many slightly familiar faces, almost to a man give stiff-upper-lip style British performances. Very professional, to be sure, but not terribly exciting. "Cocoon", on the other hand, is very well cast. There isn't a bad performance in the film, and almost all of the cast has something special to add. I was particularly pleased with the performances of Wilford Brimley (as the ringleader of the old folks) and Brian Dennehy (the alien in charge). Brimley is natural and very sympathetic. Dennehy, out from under his usual villainous brute role, displays great intelligence and sensitivity. Also excellent are Jessica Tandy, in the best of the older women's roles, Hume Cronyn as an aged husband with tendencies to stray, Don Ameche as a ladies' man whose spirit is still willing even if the flesh is weak, and Jack Gilford as a skeptical old fogey who stubbornly refuses to believe in miracles. Maureen Stapleton and Gwen Verdon are given relatively little to do. The younger members of the cast include Steve Guttenberg, a little frantic at times for my tastes; Tawny Welch, Raquel Welch's daughter, more beautiful than her mother and very talented; and Barret Oliver, as Brimley's grandson. (I wonder if Oliver, who had the leads in "The Neverending Story" and "D.A.R.Y.L", will get to play a normal boy in a non-sf/fantasy story before puberty kills his career?) Both "Cocoon" and "Lifeforce" are special effects movies. Special effects form important components of the concepts behind the pictures. While I can picture "Cocoon" without its special effects, "Lifeforce" really needs them. Thus, it is odd that, despite the relative importance of effects to the two pictures and despite the fact that "Lifeforce's" budget was about $7 million more than "Cocoon's", the effects in "Cocoon" are generally more effective and convincing than those in "Lifeforce". Some of the spacecraft model work in the latter movie isn't very good, and lots of lightshow stuff seems pretty arbitrary, being used mostly to display what John Dykstra and company can do. The effects of "Cocoon", by contrast, are well-integrated and pretty believable. I did find certain spacecraft shots towards the end to be a bit amusing in an unintentional way, as I could practically hear the Industrial Light and Magic folks saying to themselves, "Now what spaceship special effects gimmicks didn't we use on "ET"?" The best effects in "Lifeforce" are a combination of makeup and puppetry, and these are quite persuasive. Interestingly, "Cocoon" features a creature which bears more than a passing resemblance to those in "Lifeforce". The notable point here is that the former film effectively uses the creature for pathos, while the latter uses it for shock, and almost the same creature works for both purposes, an illustration that presentation is everything. "Cocoon" also wins in the category of special effects, then, but neither films' effects stand up to what I think is the best special effects work so far this summer, Will Vinton's Claymation in "Return to Oz". (And this Claymation isn't nearly as versatile and amusing as that in Vinton's own Mark Twain feature, due out this fall.) Considering that both films' budgets hover around or above the $20 million level, it should come as no surprise that both are technically accomplished. The photography in "Cocoon" gets the nod over that in "Lifeforce", simply on the basis of variety. Neither film sports a particularly distinguished score, but both are serviceable. One of the most unexpected aspects of "Lifeforce" is hearing Henry "Moon River" Mancini proving that he, too, can imitate John Williams. Between them, "Cocoon" and "Lifeforce" display three of the oldest and most familiar concepts in drama: pageant, pathos, and melodrama. (Note that I am not using any of these words in a pejorative sense, but in their original meanings, as descriptive terms for components of drama.) Pageant, back in Shakespearean times, used to consist of marching around small armies on stage and showing off richly dressed kings and their courts. Modern audiences are harder to please, since film and television have taken them places where ordinary people could never go before. Now, pageant requires either incredible opulence or dazzling special effects. The point about pageant, then and now, is that its only real purpose is to awe the viewer. Both "Cocoon" and "Lifeforce" have their moments of successful pageant. "Cocoon" also has a strong component of pathos and a little melodrama, but not much. (Some comedy, too.) Dying spouses, children wrenched from their grandparents, friendly aliens in peril - this is the stuff of modern pathos. "Cocoon's" greatest success is in the area of pathos. Ron Howard milks it for all it's worth, politely demanding that there will not be a dry eye in the house. Before people get too overwhelmed by "Cocoon", though, it's worthwhile to remember that lightweight pathos is really what we're getting, not very much real human drama (though Jack Gilford has a moment or two). The fantastic setting and the handling of the film really lightly brush the surface of the heart. "Cocoon" does not reach very deep. The melodramatic component of "Cocoon" is largely held to the ending, and isn't executed with as much conviction as the rest of the picture. I'd guess that Ron Howard, too, is getting a bit tired of the race by the aliens and their friends against the evil/ignorant/unthinking forces of the government. This device deserves to be retired for a few years. "Lifeforce" hasn't an ounce of pathos, and this lack works against it. Hooper tries to get by only with lots of pageant and melodrama. The first is moderately successful, the latter only intermittently works. As long as Hooper tries to shock, the melodrama works. His attempts to make the film succeed on the levels of mystery and suspense fail. The device used in "Lifeforce's" finale, the last minute, one or two man dash to save the city/world/universe before total destruction occurs, still has some life left in it, being one of the mainstays of modern cinema, but Hooper doesn't find how to tap its remaining vitality. A notable lack of humor in "Lifeforce" is also debilitating, while some good comic bits serve to give "Cocoon" a little variety. Fundamentally, "Cocoon" is a winner and "Lifeforce" is marginal. Howard gets to direct whatever he wants next, Hooper's career is in some trouble. "Cocoon" makes a bundle, "Lifeforce" might break even (though, since its break even point comes at around $60 million, this is in doubt). Tristar thanks the gods that it backed "Rambo", so that it will have at least one hit to tide it through the summer, 20th Century Fox breaths easy in the knowledge that even if its other summer films flop, it will make enough off "Cocoon" to keep the stockholders happy. You'll probably like "Cocoon", you are much less likely to enjoy "Lifeforce". Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa soon to be reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner) Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers Date: 27 Jun 85 16:21:33 GMT Ken Moreau writes: >Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel >the way you do? Well, I like surprises. I find that they are one of the things that make reading fiction enjoyable; a totally predictable book would, to me, be a waste of time to read unless the author was a *superb* craftsman/woman in other ways and could keep me spellbound with characterizations, etc. I reread books, but only after enough time has elapsed that not every detail about the plot and characters is still burned into my memory. I will admit that I often hurry through a book the first time (if it is especially fast- paced) just to see what will happen next; re-reading that book then allows me the luxury of "admiring the scenery" so to speak. But far from detracting from my pleasure, the suspense of not knowing what will come next heightens it. I suppose my tastes are as much an enigma to you as yours were to me...each to their own, eh? But do you find any enjoyment in O. Henry stories (or horror stories) at all? Regards, Roy Turner School of Information and Computer Science Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt P.S.: Thanks to all of you who put *spoiler* labels on postings! P.P.S.: Massive flames to all reviewers who spoil the plots of good books/movies in their reviews without telling you they are about to do so! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 85 1258-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #246 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 4 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 246 Today's Topics: Books - Delaney & Ellison (2 msgs) & Lee & Zelazny, Films - The Omega Man, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF (2 msgs) & Time Control (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Jul 85 08:10:48 pdt From: Dennis Cottel Subject: STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND I have just finished reading STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND by Samuel R. Delaney (Bantam Books, 1984). This is the first of Delaney's work that I have read since I plowed through DHALGREN some years ago (the only book I have ever trashed when I was through). Fortunately, this copy of STARS came from my local library--I was spared the feeling of wasting the purchase price. This message doesn't require a spoiler warning because there is nothing to spoil. After a promising prolog about mind-altering humans to condition them for slavery, the story (using the word loosely) wanders apparently aimlessly, describing a strange society consisting of a mixture of humans and vaguely reptilian aliens. Finally, it was over. To be fair, an Author's Note at the beginning states that the book is the first of a diptych, so I suppose you could hope that everything will made clear in the second part. I won't be reading the other half. Now, I suppose some of you will like this book (after all, *someone* liked DHALGREN according to its cover blurbs :-). There is occasionally an interesting idea scattered through the pages. But if you are looking for plot, believable characters, and a satisfying story when you read, skip this. Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA 92152 (619) 225-2406 dennis@nosc.ARPA sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 11:43 PDT From: DDYER@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA Subject: Ellison & terminator Ellison himself was on Hour 25 a few weeks ago (via telephone), and was variously crowing about the "terminator" decision and shopping for copies of the video casettes **without** the acknowlegement. According to him, adding the acknowlegement to all copies was part of the settlement, and he was semi-incensensed that any copies at all had gotten out without it. He also was quite definite that he hadn't been associated with "The Terminator", but that the similarities with his work had been pointed out by friends and fans. ------------------------------ From: hou5e!ijk@topaz.arpa (Ihor Kinal) Subject: Re:Terminator; PLAGIARISM; What Everyone has Missed. Date: 1 Jul 85 21:27:29 GMT I just joined a video club, and this weekend saw "The TERMINATOR." I'm amazed by the discussion tha's been going on in the net by a key point that everyone seems to have overlooked: at the end of the movie, a line reads: "Acknowledgment is made to the works of Harlan Ellison" (I may be off in the EXACT wording, but it's pretty close.) Now, it seems to me that if the movie people up front acknowledge the influence of a writer, they build a pretty strong case against themselves in terms of plagiarism. Certainly if my name were used that way, I would expect reimbursement. So, sorry MARK; although your opinion of Harlan may indeed be justified, I think you're wrong in this case. Ihor Kinal hru3c!ijk ------------------------------ Date: Tue 2 Jul 85 11:42:03-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #243 > Tanith Lee is a British writer who leans to sword/sorcery and > fantasy (excellent writing, I might add.) However, about a year > ago, I acquired a copy of her book THE SILVER METAL LOVER, and > loved it. I have seen lists of titles by her that might be in the > same genre (ie, not s/s); in particular, DON'T BITE THE SUN, and > SAPPHIRE WINE. I haven't been able to find them! Has anyone read > them? How were they? They were very good. (I can't help you find them; you certainly can't have _my_ copies.) The ``** spoiler warning **'' key on this terminal is broken, so I can't describe the plot. (The title of the second is _Drinking_Sapphire_Wine_, which may make it a bit easier to find.) It's about as much science fiction as _The_Silver_Metal_Lover_, or as her other sf books (_Sabella_, _Day_By_Night_ (?), _Electric_Forest_, and perhaps others I can't remember): light on the science (i.e., extremely advanced science, equivalent to domestic magic, but all in the background), heavy on things that certain of the flamers here would approve of: writing style, characterization, and so on. All of them are worth reading. Bard ------------------------------ From: h-sc1!guy@topaz.arpa (alfred guy) Subject: New Amber Book (no spoiler) Date: 1 Jul 85 17:25:18 GMT I just finished reading Zelazny's new Amber book, Trumps of Doom. It's really good, go buy it and read it. Well, I guess that's not a real article, is it? The action is up to Amber standards, and for the first time he doesn't go into a whole lot of detailed history of the land and its inhabitants. One interesting twist is that the narrator is a different character (ok, so it's a small spoiler, but they tell you this in the jacket cover), and Zelazny has obviously been reading the papers, because computer programming plays a role in the story. As usual the book is too short, and the *ending* is inconclusive--he promises two more books soon, but I really found it refreshing that he concentrates more on the story than on explaining his philosophy. This book is written more for people who have read the others than for new fans. But it is still full of the same humor and wit that have characterized the entire series, and the questions raised (which, like the identity of Corwin's "Dr. Brandon Corey," will doubltess only be answered in the final book) are exciting ones, so that my only regret is that I discovered the book so soon after it came out (it is still in hardcover), and will have to wait some time to read its sequel. -alfie guy- ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: The Omega Man Date: 7 Jul 85 05:31:33 GMT (I apologize, but I am once again taking a film that somebody likes and complaining about parts of it. The opinions here are just mine. Any film that you like is a good film in that it pleases you. With that in mind, let me say a little of why I didn't care for OMEGA MAN.) >Has anyone else seen The Omega Man? This movie was based (loosely) >on Richard Matheson's classic I AM LEGEND. An ok film, but not much better than that. It made too many changes from the original and very good novel. The Vincent Price version LAST MAN ON EARTH with a screenplay by Matheson himself (writing as Logan Swanson because he quibbled with the filmmakers) had a much better feel of nightmare. Some of the plague scenes in LMOE are among the most frightening I can remember. OMEGA MAN has nothing to match them. The remake tries too hard to make a statment about brotherhood that is completely alien to the book. >I think the movie is really a classic that has been overlooked >by lay-critics and the science fiction population in general. >It turns the paranoia of the book into more of a >SF-suspense-melodrama. > >Reasons why I think it is so good: > >Charlton Heston plays in one of his best roles, almost a >solo effort. A beautiful musical score by Ron Grainer, >composer of the theme music for the 1960's TV program THE >PRISONER Not to mention the theme to DR. WHO. It is surprising how some scenes that would look silly in OMEGA MAN if done in silence (I seem to remember a rescue on motorcycle with a very obvious stunt double for Heston, that is exciting only because of the music. >The screenplay is tight and moves along extremely >fast. Anthony Zerbe plays a really neat villan. Zerbe is often quite good. After liking the book, I thought the ending with the happy schoolbus of children singing was really bad and reminiscent of the worst of the Planet of the Apes series. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: The Problems of Science Fiction Today Date: 27 Jun 85 16:12:12 GMT Northrup Frye (a Canadian literary critic whom Canadians think is world-famous) has an interesting theory about the development of literature that may pertain to the discussion of SF. He suggests that all genres of literature go through four stages of development: (1) Mythic stage: stories about gods or god-like beings. (2) Heroic stage: stories about larger-than-life heroes. (3) Peer stage: stories about people who are much like the reading audience. (4) Ironic stage: stories about people to whom the reader is likely to feel superior. If one looks at SF and its history, one can see these stages fairly easily. SF emerged as a genre of its own with the pulps; before then, there were certainly SF stories, but they weren't a separate visible genre. At that time, the stories dealt with god-like and heroic people, the ones who could do practically anything. This kept up for quite some time, well into the fifties. Only gradually did SF characters sink from their larger than life statures. Thus, SF had Lensmen, for example, who were very god-like, and Buck Rogers, the classic hero. The so-called "new wave" of SF brought in much more down-to-earth characters. Instead of Space Rangers who could do anything, we got scientists who had to struggle and be just a little bit cleverer than whatever they were fighting. Such people were on the same level as the reader (or at least what the reader believed him/herself to be). Now we (or some authors, at any rate) are on the verge of the ironic stage. For example, characters like Thomas Covenant are more seriously screwed-up than the average reader. It is much more common to see SF characters acting in ways we recognize as childish or foolish or insensitive. Readers go through the same stages as literature...or rather, most readers have a stronger affinity for one stage than another. Thus, some readers buy SF precisely because it is a literature that still has some god-like beings. Other "Ironic" readers (frequently those who enjoy mainstream literature, which has been ironic for decades) are looking for entirely different things in SF. And because SF is only now entering the Ironic stage, the characteristic elements of ironic literature are often missing in SF. Such elements include: a certain type of characterization. It is wrong to say that many SF stories do a poor job of characterization. In the Mythic stage, the role of characterization is to impress the reader with how great the god-like being is. The literature would fail in its own goals if it introduced any humanizing influences. (In the Old Testament, would it make sense to have a scene in heaven where God agonizes over whether He should destroy Sodom and Gamorrah?) Establishing characters serves a different purpose in each of the four stages. Ironic readers should not complain that a Heroic book doesn't give the sort of characterization that is given in an Ironic book. certain restrictions on possible events in the story. In Ironic literature, "realism" is a desirable thing (at least if you're fairly loose about your definition of realism). In Mythic stories, it's an abomination. What good is it being a god if you can't have a god-like disdain for rules of science, probability, coincidence, and so on? In Heroic stories, the hero and heroine really do live happily ever after (unless they're fated to die in some high tragic way). Ironic readers can't accept such pat solutions. certain restrictions on prose style. Some SF writers can't write...or at least they cannot write in a style that is acceptable to readers in some stages. I howl every time I read E.E."Doc" Smith's prose and can't take it seriously for a moment. However, there are a large number of fans out there who love his stuff. After 20 years, it is still in print, new editions coming out, and so on. Smith's readers look at prose in an entirely different light than classic "Ironic" readers. The most educated readers today are usually Ironic readers, and what they look for in a book are a certain set of virtues. Most of the people who are contributing to this discussion are Ironic readers. However, the main body of SF just hasn't got that far in the normal course of development, nor has the main body of SF readers. I don't think this means there is a "problem" with SF. An early stage of development is not inferior to a later one; it's just different, with different goals, different techniques, and a different readership. Readers at a particular stage will be able to appreciate and enjoy SF at the same stage. As for SF at other stages, the reader will just have to avoid it or accept it for what it is. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1985 22:40 EDT From: shades Cc: sy.slogin@CU20B.ARPA, druri!dht@TOPAZ.ARPA Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #237 i have been avoiding the this entire issue of tucker versus the rest of world however i do wish to make one small point. tom de bellis is correct in that the divine comedy is not a novel. it was and is an epic poem. the genesis of the 'modern novel' does stem from don quixote. it was the first *prose* fiction piece. if you read it in the original you will find where he lapses back to the traditional poetic format rather than having it as a straight prose piece. shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!allen@topaz.arpa (John Allen) Subject: Controlling Time Date: 28 Jun 85 22:00:42 GMT > From Mike Parsons: > Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about > CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel > (controlling your local time)? I can think of two good books that discuss CONTROLLING time, although it not the major theme of either book. The first one is _A_Planet_Called_Treason_ by Orson Scott Card. If you liked his other books you should read this. The second book is _Collision_Course_ by . The basic premise of this book is that time travels in waves and that anything before a time wave has no structure because it only gains structure after a wave has passed. It turns out that there are two time waves (one of which contains the Earth of our future) on a direct collision course and when they meet they will, in effect, cancel each other out. This is a very good book. Does anyone out there happen to remember the author's name. John Allen Ohio State University (UUCP: cbosgd!osu-eddie!allen) (CSNet: allen@ohio-state) ------------------------------ From: utflis!brown@topaz.arpa (Susan Brown) Subject: Controlling Time Date: 28 Jun 85 21:49:28 GMT john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) writes: >>From: msp@ukc.UUCP (M.S.Parsons) >>Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about >>CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel >>(controlling your local time)? > >Try the new Star Trek novel "Killing Time", by Dell Van Hise. That's *Della*, as in the wife of James, but maybe I shouldn't mention it since I don't think her explanation of how the time travel was achieved (WAS there an explanation??) was really very good. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 3 Jul 85 1317-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #247 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Jul 85 1317-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #247 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 4 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 247 Today's Topics: Books - Donaldson & Tubb & Canonical Books & The Flying Sorcerors, Films - Lifeforce (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Rereading Books & The Problems of SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jul 85 21:36:22 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: yet more Thomas Covenant One or two years ago, a friend of mine re-read one of the Thomas Covenant trilogies with an eye to the technical qualities of the writing. He estimated that it could have been shrunk to between 2/3 and 3/4 of its published size without impacting the story simply by trimming out some of Donaldson's excessive "purpleness" of description. (As I recall, we thought the trilogy was about 1500 pages, and my friend thought it could be done in about 1100 pages). Some where in the SF-L archives is a series of messages about the problems with the 2nd chronicles of Thomas Covenant. This included a discussion of when we could expect the third book (6th overall) and the story about Donaldson's fight with DelRey over "The One Tree". Briefly, Donaldson is supposed to have had some bad times in his personal life around the time he was writing "The One Tree" and this is supposed to be very heavily reflected in the actual text of "The One Tree". Lester Del Rey, Donaldson's editor, wanted to trim the book to tone down what seemed to be mostly a long tirade against Donaldson's ex-{lover/wife/female companion} (choose one, I don't know which is actually correct). Donaldson had fits, insisted that everything stay exactly as it was written which resulted in a big fight. Lester Del Rey refused to work on Donaldson's books after "The One Tree" and they had to hold up everything until they could assign another editor. This also explains why "The One Tree" is so unrelentingly depressing (even more so than any of the other books). If anyone wants to go through the archives, wherever they now reside, to look for this stuff, it was sometime after the hardcover publication of "The One Tree", but long before (at least six months) the publication of the 6th book ("White Gold Wielder"?). We are probably talking about a time period of about 3 years ago, since the whole thing was during my last period of reading SF-L. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 2 Jul 85 16:21:18-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Re: Space 1999 novel by E.C. Tubb Well I managed to rake out this nonexistent book and its entitled Earthfall by E.C. Tubb and most certainly is Space: 1999. Presumably then it never did make it across the Atlantic. Don't know if its still in print, but I'll try and find out if anybody is interested. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Mon 1 Jul 85 11:00:21-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: 'canonical' books First, the meaning of Canonical. Since we are not engaged in a religious discussion, I assume the intended meaning is 4. of the nature of a canon or rule; of admitted authority, excellence, or supremacy; authoritative; orthodox, accepted; standard. (o Fr 'canoun', L. 'canon', Gr 'kanon') meaning "rule", ie standard of measure. The first reference is dated 1553, but perhaps the best is from 1796: "He [Claudios Ptolemaios] ... remained the canonical geographer of the antients" This implies, I think, that a canonical book on a subject is the one that is accepted as setting the standard, against which other books are judged. Of course, if the first book ever on a new topic is good enough, it has a reasonable chance of becoming canonical. Ptolemy's Geography, for instance, was the first to attempt a description of the entire known world. Perhaps this answers the "orthodox versus innovative" problem - the book may well have been innovateive when published, but it innovated with such success that it is now the standard - the orthodox treatment. Some examples in SF are possibly: Parallel Worlds: Dick, The Man in the High Castle Nuclear Aftermath: Miller, A Canticle for Leibowitz Stewart, Earth Abides where I think many of us would agree that these are part of the "canon". Another example, where the first book on a topic was so good it has not been displaced, is Earth Invaded: Wells, The War of the Worlds And a couple more suggestions: Robots: Asimov, I, Robot Time Paradoxes: Heinlein, By His Bootstraps However, I can't think of any one book in the "space travel" category that seems canonical. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 85 19:51:16 EDT From: David A. Adler Subject: HELP!! The Flying Sorcerers I also recently read the Flying Sorcerers by Gerrold and Niven and, now that I have read it, would like to re-read it with the list of which gods are which authors that appeared in this digest a few months ago. However, I seem to have misplaced it (or maybe the computer misplaced it when it was having disk problems (always blame the computer whenever possible)) and would appreciate it if someone who still has this list online could send me a copy. David Adler (DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 85 08:48 PDT From: Todd.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Life Force from Donald.Schmitz@CMU-RI-ARM > the new movie Life Force, which had what I considered a good >preview and touts lots of people from big name movies, is in >actuallity a poor B movie. The plot has been blatantly ripped off >from Alien and Dawn of the Dead I have not seen this film, but I understand that it is an adaptation of an absolutely dreadful Colin Wilson novel called /The Space Vampires/. (which predates Alien and Dawn of the Dead). It would not surprise me a bit if Life Force was similarly horrid. The part about having lots of big-name actors disturbs me though. It seems like the only SF films (this one should probably be better classed as Sci-Fi) that get any consistently decent actors nowadays are the ones that suck. Vehicles. Give 'em lots of nifty special effects and the writers don't REALLY need to paid that much, do they? Gah. - JohnnyT ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 09:56 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Lifeforce I have heard from EVERYONE that Lifeforce is bad. The big question now is, is it REALLY BAD? Can humor be derived from it? Most SF lovers I know can still enjoy a REALLY BAD movie if they know it is coming. I cite The Dungeon Master, Battle Beyond the Stars, and a million other B flicks as examples. Does this movie provide the necessary elements of silly effects, stupid characters and cheap monsters to make it as a true B film, or is it worse than that? And if so, how in the world could it be? I'm not trying to dissuade people from seeing Lifeforce, I just want them to be prepared for a bad movie and expect it. Me, I plan on waiting for it to hit cable, or the $2 theatre down the street. No sense paying them to put out drivel, even though it can be fun once it is recognized. How many other people enjoy REALLY BAD sf movies? Is it only because there are so few good ones? Isn't it a shame? Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Rereading Date: 27 Jun 85 20:39:39 GMT >From Lee Gold (barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP): > I typically let a book wait a week or two before rereading it Above is just one example of something that has been discussed a lot here lately- reading books a second time and how some are still exciting after 20 readings. I have one question for all of you on this - HOW DO YOU HAVE TIME FOR THIS????? The stack of books I have "to be read" fills the shelf in my nightstand and part of the storage space in the headboard of my bed. I try to keep up to date on the magazines I read but I'm usually about a month behind. My stack of sf fanzines to be read is probably a foot deep. I carry a book with me at all times (though I have better sense than to read while driving as has been complained about in net.auto) and am a reasonably fast reader, or at least I was back in school when such things were tested. There are books I've read more than once, such as Lord of the Rings, but usually with several years between readings. There are lots of books I would like to read again but there is too much I want to read for the first time. Have you taken speed reading or what? I guess my problem is I want to read EVERYTHING. (Just finished Flight of the Dragonfly - very good) Mary Anne Espenshade ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: The Problems of Science Fiction Today Date: 28 Jun 85 18:46:16 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >Northrup Frye (a Canadian literary critic whom Canadians think is >world-famous) has an interesting theory about the development of >literature that may pertain to the discussion of SF. ... When I was an undergraduate English major (late '60s, early '70s) Northrop Frye was indeed well-known and respected among literary academics in the U.S. I don't know about other countries, however. My impression is that he's still respected in some quarters, but has fallen somewhat out of fashion of late. >If one looks at SF and its history, one can see these stages fairly >easily. SF emerged as a genre of its own with the pulps; before >then, there were certainly SF stories, but they weren't a separate >visible genre. At that time, the stories dealt with god-like and >heroic people, the ones who could do practically anything. ... I'm not sure this applies to many of the characters in early SF. Jules Verne and Olaf Stapledon, for example, seem to have had a lot of people in their stories who were quite ordinary or flawed in some way. Consider the captain of the Nautilus (Nemo?) in 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea. If by 'at that time' you mean principally the early pulps, you're probably right, of course. >Now we (or some authors, at any rate) are on the verge of the >ironic stage. For example, characters like Thomas Covenant are >more seriously screwed-up than the average reader. It is much more >common to see SF characters acting in ways we recognize as childish >or foolish or insensitive. It seems to me that nonheroes or antiheroes have been fairly common in SF for many years. Consider, for example, the characters in Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human," who were all flawed in some way. Or Dr. Nancy what's-her-name in Asimov's robot stories, who could relate to robots effectively but not to her fellow human beings (at least that's how I remember her). >The most educated readers today are usually Ironic readers, and >what they look for in a book are a certain set of virtues. Most of >the people who are contributing to this discussion are Ironic >readers. However, the main body of SF just hasn't got that far in >the normal course of development, nor has the main body of SF >readers. I don't think this means there is a "problem" with SF. I wonder to what extent SF and genre literature other than SF has evolved in the sense you're talking about. It seems to me that the crime/detective story genre has always had a lot of less-than-heroic characters, at least for the bulk of this century. So has the western genre. I'm not that familiar with these genres, however. An interesting question is, have these genres 'evolved' in the sense you're talking about faster than SF has evolved over (say) the last fifty years? If so, what is it about SF that makes it harder for more 'modern' modes of fiction to become widely accepted by its readership? Perhaps someone in this group is more familiar with the history of SF and non-SF genres and can address these questions. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: ddb@mrvax.DEC Subject: Re: Part VII Date: 28 Jun 85 16:21:24 GMT > PART VII: Thematic Drought > by Davis Tucker >But let us return to modern novel, starting with "Don Quixote De La >Mancha" and Dante's "Inferno", "Purgatorio", and "Paradiso". What >distinguishes the Dante's Divine Comedy isn't a novel of any sort, nor is it modern by any standard definition. I don't recall any agreed-on definition of the modern novel, but surely it's something AFTER Dickens? >The novels and short stories of the 19th and 20th centuries have >given us insight into the worlds within us that have lain buried... >strange themes of degradation and desperation... Self-discovery >instead of self-actualization (who you are, not what you can >become)... Tales of obsession and murder and lust... Sigh. I know who I am, thank you very much. I'm not interested in reading fictional accounts of the self-discoveries of people I wouldn't care to meet on the streets. Most of those people are BORING BORING BORING, and reading about them is even worse. And I prefer a different slant on my tales of obsession and lust :-). >Why is it that this freedom of themes, this wealth of subject >material, is not present in science fiction? When was the last time >you read a real-life, honest-to-god science fiction tragedy? Why is >it that nobody has written a truly great *love story* in science >fiction? Where is the human failure, the small glories, the defeats >of growing old, the joy in childhood, the pain of growing aware, >the acceptance that we all must come to in time, the heartache, the >anguish, the ecstasy? Tragedies? Tom Godwin's The Cold Equations would be my first pick. The original Dune trilogy is a classic Greek-form tragedy. Most of Sturgeon's work is love stories; try Venus Plus X, The Silk and Swift, or Slow Sculpture. Or Joan Vinge's Snow Queen. Or Delany's Driftglass. Zelazny does the "human failure, the small glories, the defeats of growing old, the joy in childhood, the pain of growing aware..." pretty well, as does Robert Heinlein (try The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, or Time Enough for Love). Look at Childhood's End (Arthur C. Clarke). Try Steve Brust's Brokedown Palace (when it comes out; sorry to cheat like that). Try John M. Ford's The Princes of the Air. The modern literary novel is obsessed with the self-discoveries of neurotics and schizophrenics; I'm not interested in the rantings of crazy people, thank you. >They don't address themselves to what is fundamentally imperative >when one is writing about human beings, or aliens, or any kind of >consciousness that feels and thinks. And just what is that? And how can you be so sure what's imperative? >It would be far better if more authors of science fiction showed as >much passion and interest in their characters' lives as they do in >their "universes" and scientific extrapolation. The best ones do. Just as the less good ones in the literary genre don't. >Human nature is much more interesting than particle physics, and >it's a much richer lode of strangeness and imagination. I'm not sure there's any such THING as human nature; there are just humans. Humans are more interesting under stress than at rest (at least if you're watching from a distance :-). Humans interacting with particle physics on a personal level are often under a lot more stress than humans at rest! The universe is a much stranger place than the parts of it I've been able to visit so far would indicate; I find people's reactions to these strange environments to be very interesting. And humans AREN'T the only valid subject for a novel; it's perfectly valid to focus on something other than the characters. David Dyer-Bennet UUCP: ...!{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|purdue|shasta|utcsrgv}! decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-mrvax!ddb Arpa: ddb%mrvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Easynet: Dyer-Bennet@KL2102, mrvax::ddb Compuserve: 74756,723 AT&T/NYNEX: (617) 467-4076 (work) (617) 562-2130 (home) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jul 85 1759-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #250 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 250 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Pohl & Sladek (2 msgs), Films - Lovecraftian Movies (3 msgs), Television - Planet Names & The Questor Tapes & Star Trek & Space: 1999 Miscellaneous - Spoilers (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Jul 85 17:55 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: The Problems of Science Fiction Today Cc: William Ingogly >It seems to me that nonheroes or antiheroes have been fairly common >in SF for many years. Consider, for example, the characters in >Theodore Sturgeon's "More Than Human," who were all flawed in some >way. Or Dr. Nancy what's-her-name in Asimov's robot stories, who >could relate to robots effectively but not to her fellow human >beings (at least that's how I remember her). It was Dr. Susan Calvin (I think). I believe Asimov as said that she's his favorite character. Incidentally, one could classify at least some of the robot stories as Mythic or Heroic, *if* you consider the robots to be the protagonists. Especially the last two stories in _I,_Robot_, whose names I've forgotten (the one about "Is the candidate a robot or not?" and the one wherein the protagonists worry about whether the giant robots (really computers) that run the world are cracking up (I'm trying to avoid "spoilers" here, so I may be a little vague.)) In many of the stories robots mess up only because of (as HAL would say) human error. (Like the one where the robot messes up because it is told to pull a lever "firmly," and bends it.) On the other hand, in some of the stories robots mess up on their own (eg the one about the robot with a weak first law who was told to "get lost.") As with most attempts to classify all of anything into several neat pockets, there are ususally examples that either don't fit or which overlap more than one. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ From: genie!sonja@topaz.arpa (Sonja Bock) Subject: Black Star Rising - Fredreerik Pohl - Ballantine Books 1985 Date: 7 Jul 85 02:10:47 GMT Black Star Rising Frederik Pohl Ballantine Books 1985 Perhaps Ballantine does Pohl an injustice on the dustcover by announcing "Black Star Rising" as "An Astounding New Novel". Science fiction has been around too long to count on "astoundingness". Pohl, however, needs none of this advance work. The terms innovative, ironic, and humorous have always been applicable where Pohl was involved, especially while in collaboration with the late, great C.M. Kornbluth. "Black Star Rising" is no exception. Picture an Earth, some two centuries hence, where the US and USSR have done themselves in with characteristic efficiency, leaving the remains to China and India who annex the discombobulated Western World in a bloodless coup, dividing the spoils with the same assurance as Spain and Portugal in earlier times. Picture Han Chinese tourists snapping pix of the quaint peasants on an Alabaman agricultural collective. Imagine the consternation of the Chinese when a space vessel not recognizable as anything earthlike threatens annihilation if negotiations are not made with any other than the President of the United States. Unfortunatly, this position has been extinct for a good century. The characters here are good. One standard anti-hero, young, ambitious and easily led; one confident, jaded and yet vulnerable older woman; one confident, sloganized and yet vulnerable younger woman, and one multiple personality who is exactly that. The objective is to save the world with the dubious aid of alien-worlders who love a good fight more than anything. A very entertaining read, this book contrasts with some others recently published in that it presents war as something noble only in nostalgia and childish in practice. ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson) Subject: Re: TIK-TOK by John Sladek (other Sladek) Date: 4 Jul 85 02:37:05 GMT Another farce by John T Sladek, in a somewhat lighter vein, is "The Reproductive System" (also published as "Mechasm"), c ? (sorry, the copyright page has fallen out of my copy). "... a new kind of machine that can feed on any metal and drink at power outlets in order to grow and reproduce itself. But the system quickly gets out of control [su-prise!su-prise!], and almost before its creators realize what's happening the gray box-like machines are well on their way to conquering and absorbing the entire state of Utah, then the United States, and tomorrow ... the world?" Well reviewed by Punch, Oxford Mail, New Worlds, and The London Times ("An original novel that will surely become a classic of the genre."), and the Ace edition had a nice cover by Leo & Diane Dillon. It moves as quickly as Ron Goulart's work but has more substance. On the other hand, it isn't as deep (or heavy) as Tik-Tok. Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: MECHASM by John Sladek Date: 5 Jul 85 17:32:57 GMT lum@osu-eddie.UUCP (Lum Johnson) writes: >Another farce by John T Sladek, in a somewhat lighter vein, is "The >Reproductive System" (also published as "Mechasm"), c ? (sorry, >the copyright page has fallen out of my copy). > >"... a new kind of machine that can feed on any metal and drink at >power outlets in order to grow and reproduce itself. But the >system quickly gets out of control [su-prise!su-prise!], and almost >before its creators realize what's happening the gray box-like >machines are well on their way to conquering and absorbing the >entire state of Utah, then the United States, and tomorrow ... the >world?" I read _Mechasm_, and enjoyed it a lot. It's interesting to compare it with _The Cyberiad_ (Stanislaw Lem). Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Lovecraft-based movies Date: 11 Jul 85 06:54:07 GMT Boyajian says: >I found references to three film adaptations of Lovecraft, >including THE DUNWICH HORROR (regardless of how close, or >not, as the case may be, you think it comes to Lovecraft, it >*is* still a film version of the story). The other two are: > >(1) THE HAUNTED PALACE, American-International, 1963, screenplay > by Charles Beaumont, adapted from "The Case of Charles > Dexter Ward" (with a little E. A. Poe thrown in for > good measure). > >(2) DIE, MONSTER, DIE! [a.k.a. MONSTER OF TERROR], American > International, 1965, screenplay by Jerry Sohl, adapted > from "The Colour Out of Space". How's about: (3) THE SHUTTERED ROOM, Troy-Schenck, 1967, screenplay by D. B. Ledrov and N. Tanchuck, from a novel by H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth. With Gig Young, Carol Lynley, Oliver Reed. [Lee, pg. 437] Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 85 09:39:08 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Lovecraft films This is from memory, so apply caveats. The four are: "The Dunwich Horror" - w. Dean Stockwell, Sandra Dee (!), and Ed Begley (as Prof. Armitage - a good choice) - probably the closest adaptation of an HPL story, which, considering the film, isn't saying much. Nice music, though (Firesign Theatre used it as the theme for "Mark Time!"). "The Haunted Palace" - w. Vincent Price & Lon Chaney, Jr. - title from Poe, plot from "Charles Dexter Ward" - also close to story; maybe the best *film* of an HPL story (note the distinction). "Die, Monster, Die!" - w. Boris Karloff & Nick Adams (!!) - from "The Colour out of Space", but only the core is retained: meteor lands on a farm and causes mutations. "The Shuttered Room" - Can't recall anyone notable in the cast - from the Lovecraft/Derleth pastiche of the same name. Totally ignores the Cthulhu Mythos side of things, preferring to concentrate on the more mundane story of a family with a mentally handicapped adult locked away for the good of everyone concerned. Ugh. I've only seen this once, and promptly forgot it. Maybe this has Sandra Dee, and not "Dunwich"? Seems to me that anyone could make a semi-decent horror flick from "Call of Cthulhu" without half trying. So where is it? And why have horror films and filmmakers borrowed so heavily from HPL (vengeful gods, inbred backwaters, forbidden books), down to mentioning the "Necronomicon", for the Unspeakable's sake, instead of trying to adapt him? Surely Arkham House doesn't want *that* much for the film rights? Peter Reiher, have any insights? Chris ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 85 13:07:03 EDT From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Lovecraft Movies I seem to recall seeing a Vincent Price movie which was a really mangled rendition of THE CASE OF CHARLES DEXTER WARD. They called it BLOOD CASTLE or some such nonsense. About the only similarities to the book were CDW's name, the NECRONOMICON, and Blasphemous Beasties in the Basement. Of course, they added a Damsel in Distress, too. -- Jamie ------------------------------ From: friedman@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA Subject: Re: "Where no man has gone before" Date: 3 Jul 85 16:47:00 GMT > Though as for the naming of the newly discovered planets, they > seemed to follow a naming system using first the name of the > constellation in which the sun was found, a Greek letter > specifying the particular sun (possibly by absolute magnitude), > and a number specifying the planet of that sun. It was never stated where they got the constellation names and Greek letters, but the simplest explanation is that these were taken from Earth's constellations and the standard star-naming scheme in use on Earth, in which the brightest star (apparent magnitude) in a given constellation is alpha, the next is beta, etc. Of course, there were maverick names throughout the series. For example, one planet is called "Ingraham B". I like to think that "Ingraham" might be a gas giant with an inhabitable satellite in the second position from the giant. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 4 Jul 85 15:32:20-PDT From: Dave Combs Subject: Re: The Questor Tapes For whomever it was that couldn't remember the name of Questor's creator in The Questor Tapes (sorry, but I accidentally deleted that issue of SF-Lovers before I took down your name), it was Emil(?) Vaslovik. Dave ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al (Shape changers.) Date: 5 Jul 85 02:23:51 GMT > About shapechangers in Star Trek. Besides Garth, there were the > two 'magicians.' I don't remember the name of the episode, but > Sulu, McCoy, Kirk, Spock, and a few Red-shirts were captured by > shapechanged aliens. At the end of the show they turned out to be > small, blue green critters that were a cross between a starfish, > an amoeba, and a chicken. The episode was Catspaw, second season. The critters were from out of this galaxy and had mechanical help. Same with Squire of Gothos. Outside energy coming in. Maya had no massive power plant behind her. ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Thu, 4 Jul 85 18:48:05 PDT Subject: Re: Space: 1999 I recall that during Space(d out): 1999's first season, Dr. Asimov wrote an article, published in TV Guide, that detailed the errors involved in the show. I do not, however, have any idea of the date of that issue. Bruce N. Wheelock {sdcsvax, ihnp4}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 3 Jul 1985 07:47:05-PDT From: moreau%eiffel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN From: 381-2102) Subject: Spoilers and real life Frank Adams (mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa) writes: > Indeed, whoever started this discussion specifically disliked the > suspense of not knowing what was going to happen. But you should > be aware that giving away the plot does detract from the pleasure > for some of us, and insert spoiler warnings as called for. After > all, no one's enjoyment is diminished by seeing the words "spoiler > warning" in an article. No, I understand that some people treat the words "spoiler warning" as a cue to reach for the 'n' key. I was just trying to point out that some people (me, and possibly others) treat it as a cue to read further in the hopes of picking up information. I am always careful to insert spoiler warnings as a cue to both types of people. I don't think there is anything wrong with either technique. I was just trying to explain why I feel as I do, and get other people (the ones who reach for the 'n' key) to explain why they feel as they do. Henry Vogel (henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa) writes: > One is forced to wonder how you can stand life? Last time I > checked, most people have no idea what will happen next in their > life or the lives of their friends. Admittedly, more people will > have a tendency to get blown away (or have some other awful thing > happen to them) in fiction than in real life, but awful things do > happen in real life. I'm not flaming you for your opinion, but it > does raise some interesting questions... That is one of the things about life that I cannot take: its uncertainty. But it seems to me that you (and others) are coming back to the same point, which is "Life has (uncertainty, bad guys winning, good guys losing, everyone unhappy all the time, whatever else you care to put here), and you somehow survive life, so why don't you spend money on and actively enjoy the same things in books?". Have you ever heard the term "escapism"? I read to enjoy myself. Insisting that a lot of bad things be put into a book *JUST BECAUSE SUCH THINGS HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE* eliminates one of the main attractions of fiction, namely that it is NOT like life. Someone else wrote "The big question when watching television is not *WHETHER* the hero will get out of their crisis. We know that they will. The big question is *HOW* the hero will get out of their crisis." To me that is the enjoyable part of fiction, the "how". If I am concerned about the "whether", I cannot enjoy it. Ken Moreau ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Thu, 4 Jul 85 18:35:12 PDT Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers Ken Moreau writes: >Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel >the way you do? When an author writes a book, he writes it so that the reader may enjoy and savor the elements of the plot that have been created. Part of the enjoyment of the work is experiencing the events with the characters. I don't care for predictable books, and won't finish one on the first attack. For me, anyway, a book whose entire course is obvious from the start is so badly flawed that no other factor will redeem it. Roy Turner cited O. Henry--a good example. Another is the Twilight Zone. These, and others, live and die mostly on the element of surprise. I do, on the other hand, reread books. Those that delivered strong characters, well-developed plots, believable dialog and story lines. Some very good ones get reread at once, others draw my interest months or years later. Knowing the plot does not diminish my enjoyment because I am reading them for different reasons. But I would not want to give up the special thrills of that first read. Bruce N. Wheelock {sdcsvax, ihnp4}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jul 85 1925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #251 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 251 Today's Topics: Films - Lifeforce, Miscellaneous - The Problems with SF (3 msgs) & Advanced Races (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: LIFEFORCE Date: 2 Jul 85 02:23:19 GMT LIFEFORCE A film review by Mark R. Leeper Everybody is saying that the big science fiction film of the summer is COCOON. I have heard very little negative comment on COCOON and very little positive comment on LIFEFORCE. Based on this I get a strong impression that LIFEFORCE is not a film I should recommend. Let me say then as a minority opinion that for me LIFEFORCE is THE big film of the summer and that it is the kind of film that I wish more people were making. The filmmakers have remembered that what makes a science fiction film is ideas and showing the viewer visually the effects of these ideas. You will see sights that could only occur in science fiction films. Unlike in TERMINATOR, you won't see car chases that could be from a "Dirty Harry" film. You won't see Don Ameche break-dancing either. You will see a science fiction/horror/fantasy film with science fiction or horror or fantasy in virtually every frame of the film. There is too much story here to fiddle around with cute characters or standard human drama. This is not to say that the film is totally original--far from it. There are elements of FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH, ALIEN, DAWN OF THE DEAD, GHOST BUSTERS, a number of 1950's British science fiction films, even DRACULA, but there is also a great deal of metaphysical speculation that belongs to this film alone. LIFEFORCE is a film that has more right with it than wrong, and it has more wrong with it than a film like COCOON has right or wrong. This is a film densely packed with ideas and visual effects. The story begins with an expedition to Halley's Comet discovering a 150-mile-long spacecraft filled with dead aliens, Yes, in some senses it is not all that different from ALIEN. And it stays like ALIEN for a good five or ten minutes. But while you are watching the film, don't think you have it pegged as a particular kind of film; it won't stay that way for long. John Dykstra, who was pivotal in the special effects of STAR WARS, created the effects for LIFEFORCE and they stand as a showcase of just about every special effects' technique seen in modern fantasy films. The story calls for blue screen effects, for laser light effects, for some effects I don't even know the names for. There are also make-up/model/prosthetic effects and those play an important role in the film. Along with Dykstra there is an odd collection of familiar names associated with this film. It was directed by Tobe Hooper, who directed such diverse films as TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE, 'SALEM'S LOT, and POLTERGEIST. It was produced by Golan and Globus, two Israelis who usually do films of the Chuck Norris ilk with price tags a good deal beneath this film's $23 million budget. The screenplay was co-authored by Dan O'Bannon, known for DARK STAR, ALIEN, BLUE THUNDER, and STAR CHAMBER. The source material was the novel THE SPACE VAMPIRES by Colin Wilson, a philosopher who is a sometimes science fiction writer. The surprisingly riveting score is by Henry Mancini (of all people), who used to score such horror films as TARANTULA but is better known for soft music such as "Moon River" or "Days of Wine and Roses." The film stars Steve Railsback (Manson in HELTER SKELTER, and THE STUNT MAN), Peter Firth (the disturbed boy from EQUUS), and Frank Finlay (who played Van Helsing in the PBS/BBC version of COUNT DRACULA). LIFEFORCE was released by Tri-Star, the film-making arm of Home Boxoffice. The reason that LIFEFORCE runs into problems is that there is simply too much story for a 101-minute film. Often the plot line becomes cryptic. The viewer often sees something that is clearly spectacular, but also is a little hard to interpret. Some scenes of destruction become a little repetitive, but are required to convey the scope of the events of the film. In general the plot runs quickly and in several unexpected directions. LIFEFORCE will not do well at the boxoffice and most who see it will not care for it. Still, it is a remarkable and an unusual film. I gave it a +3 on the -4 to +4 scale on leaving the theater, but on some reflection I might drop that to a +2. But I had a whale of a good time and a lot more pleasure out of LIFEFORCE than I got out of E. T., STARMAN, and COCOON combined. This is a film for a narrow audience, but I found it straight on target. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 16:49:58 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Problems with the Problems In Science Fiction Davis Tucker writes: > When was the last time you read a real-life, honest-to-god > science fiction tragedy? Why is it that nobody has written a > truly great *love story* in science fiction? Where is the human > failure, the small glories, the defeats of growing old, the joy in > childhood, the pain of growing aware, the acceptance that we all > must come to in time, the heartache, the anguish, the ecstasy? Gee, what about: ENGINE SUMMER, John Crowley (1,2,4,6,7,8,9) RIDDLE OF STARS (trilogy), Patricia McKillip (1,2,7) SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES, Ray Bradbury (4,6,7) THE DREAMING JEWELS (a.k.a. THE SYNTHETIC MAN), Theodore Sturgeon (1-9) DAVY, Edgar Pangborn (1-9) CITY, Clifford Simak (1,3,4,5,7,8) BABEL-17, Delaney (2,3,7) THE DEMOLISHED MAN; THE STARS MY DESTINATION, Alfred Bester (1-5,8,9) "Tin Soldier", Joan D. Vinge (1-5,9) TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE, Heinlein (2-9) DYING INSIDE; BOOK OF SKULLS, Robert Silverberg (1-9) RE-BIRTH, John Wyndham/Beynon(?)/Harris (1-9) INDEX KEY: 1 - tragedy 2 - love story 3 - human failure 4 - small glories 5 - defeats of growing old 6 - joy in childhood 7 - pain of growing aware 8 - acceptance that we all must come to in time 9 - heartache, anguish, ecstasy Like, gag me with a spoonerism. I understand the desire to provoke controversial discussion, but this is a bit much. We could just as easily take pot shots at all contemporary NON-science fiction, as being irrelevant to the underlying matters of our times (and more often than not, boring). But we won't, will we now. Equally, if one is to apply the above criteria to mainstream literature, not much remains, hmm? I'm still reeling from the more esoteric requests for good writers, like redefining the artistic ether, or whatever? How about writing books you can't put down, that make you laugh, cry, excited, angry and fulfilled? Isn't that good enough? And what was that about Delany's missing except with DHALGREN? How do you feel about some of the mainstreamers (who have done some crossover), like John D. MacDonald, Donald Westlake, Stephen Becker, George Bernard Shaw, Mark Twain, Thorne Smithe ... oh, bother! There's somebody at the door. YARG! A flaming ARGUMENT! YACK! Back, Sir! Back, I say! Down! Asynchronously, Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 10:48:49 PDT From: Will Duquette Subject: Quality in SF I've noticed quite a bit of talk about quality in literature ( and other things) in the last few weeks worth of SF-LOVER'S. I've also noticed that most of the letters sent in are rather "polarized" -- that is, they fall into one of two disparate and rather simplistic camps. The first camp is the "absolutist" camp. They say that there IS some absolute standard of quality, and that some works are innately better than others, whether YOU, YOU UNWASHED HEATHEN, agree or not. On the other hand, there are those who live in the "relativist" camp. Quality is all in personal taste; if you enjoy something, then it has quality for you; if you don't, it has none. I'm perfectly willing to grant that the authors of many of these letters may indeed have wider opinions than these, but this is what I've been reading. I called these views simplistic for the following reasons: the relativists seem to accept a certain standard of quality in their OTHER letters--that of technical quality. An author who does not know the rules of spelling or grammar clearly is not as good a writer _technically_ as some who does (or someone who does and purposely breaks those rules...). I expect that at this point someone is screaming "But somebody can have no concept of spelling or grammar and still be a marvelous story-teller!!!!!" Exactly so, and that brings me to the flaw in the absolutist case; or not flaw exactly, but a neglected point: that there is not one absolute standard of quality, but rather many! For example, consider the book _Stand On Zanzibar_, by John Brunner, and the "Alice" books by Lewis Carroll. Both works are excellent, and technically well-written. That is, both writers are good craftsmen. But it is clear that _Stand On Zanzibar_ fails at whimsy, and that _Alice In Wonderland_ fails at creating and documenting a new and intriguing society. Of course, neither were intended for these purposes--but for one whose main taste in literature is whimsy, _Stand On Zanzibar_ will likely not be very pleasing. Note that while the whimsical reader may therefore dislike SOZ, SOZ is still excellent at what it does, namely bringing a possible future society to life. Consequently, trying to rate the quality of book depends on two things: The technical quality of the work, and its quality levels in those areas to which it is addressed. _Alice In Wonderland_ rates very highly in whimsy and subtle humor, for example, and is also well-written--and is thus an excellent book. Trying to compare the quality of two books with different goals is like trying to compare two atheletes, say a swimmer and a diver. Both use water, but the skills are very different. Any comments? Will Duquette ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 85 21:51:19 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: In re: the thematic problems w/ SF I am suprised no one has mentioned Silverberg's better works as a rebuttal to this essay. Book such as "Dying Inside" or "A Time of Changes" (would some like to try to classify "Son of Man"?) Steve Z. ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get... Date: 28 Jun 85 16:45:12 GMT >From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford >> From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) >> There's only one commodity a highly advanced race would travel >> light-years to take by force, and that's slaves. It certainly >> isn't water. > >I have to disagree. > >1) If you're running out of water, and you don't have the resources >to reclaim it or manufacture it, then you've only one option open >to you: go get some more! And believe me, you'll go whatever >distance it takes to get it! The problem is that there are *much* easier ways to get water. As an obvious example, there is considerably more water in the rings and moons of Saturn than on the surface of the Earth. It's frozen, but that hardly matters. Even more directly, water is made from hydrogen and oxygen, which are two of the most common elements in the universe. It takes a lot less energy to make water than it does to cross interstellar space. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 1 Jul 1985 07:39:11-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: Advanced Race >From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford >2) Are slaves even very valuable to "a highly advanced race"? I >mean, at some point machine labor becomes cheaper and more >efficient than human labor; once a race has passed this point, >human slaves have little value. But I guess one could argue that >the above refers only to physical labor, and thus human slaves >might still have value for other types of labor. (What a >nightmare: aliens kidnap the entire human race and make accountants >of us all!) I believe it was in the second of the movies (and the book) that explains that SOME of the humans are for food, SOME are for slave labor, and MOST are going to be used as sword fodder in the lizard army. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 85 17:39:56 PDT (Tuesday) From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get What would an advanced race travel to another star to get? An answer to this question depends upon how advanced this race is. First case: assume that the race is just advanced enough to get to another star, but not very easily. This is just about where we earthlings are right now, or will be in a few years (this might be a topic for a separate discussion). What could we find in another star system that would be worth the voyage? We have plenty of material wealth in our own solar system. I doubt there is any substance, object or source of energy that would be worth the time and energy to make an interstellar voyage. It would almost always be easier to find or build something ourselves, certainly easier than fighting someone else for it. But there are some things that would be worth the trip - things like knowledge, planets to colonize, and friends. Second case: assume a race that can easily travel between the stars. Such a race would probably have a technology advanced enough that they could build or obtain anything they wanted, and probably more easily than they could take it from someone else. Again, all they could really want would be things like knowledge, planets to colonize, and friends. Brad Templeton writes: >You bet they would come for slaves. Just because we think we are >advanced morally past the desire for slaves, doesn't mean other >races would follow the same track. > >Highly advanced technology can do much, but it never replaces >personal service. (Of course, if you can make an android with a >turing-test AI program then there is an argument that this is a >living being and should not be enslaved, too) > >At any rate, until you have perfect AI, nothing can match a slave >as the ultimate luxury. And with a cousin race they can even be >used for sexual purposes. Slaves are cheap - they can produce >enough to feed and house themselves and you can take all the >rewards. Yes, they would come for slaves. The question of slavery is not a moral one, but an economic one. And slavery just isn't worthwhile in an economically advanced society. Slaves are not cheap - they require a lot of maintenance, and have a lot of annoying habits and superfluous functions. And they never provide service equal to that of willing servants (organic or artificial). No one who could travel between stars could possibly have any material use for aliens as slaves. It's more likely that hostile aliens would want us to kill, torture, eat, use as larval hosts or whatever, but not to enslave. So when outsiders arrive on my front lawn, I won't worry, cause they're either gonna be friendly, or they're gonna eat my brain, and I can't do anything about that. Josh Susser ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get : slaves Date: 1 Jul 85 19:03:01 GMT For that matter why bother to haul grown slaves over Interstellar distances. All you need is a tank of fertilized ova and enough humans to raise the resulting children. Of course, you have to assume that their biological sciences are a little backward compared to their physics, or they would just design the DNA for the slaves they wanted instead of going to look for it, and you wouldn't have to put up with all those human traits that tend to make us crummy slaves |->. Joel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jul 85 1710-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #249 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 249 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Cook & Yarbro, Films - Cocoon & Lovecraftian Movies & Red Sonja, Television - UFO ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bnl!stern@topaz.arpa (eric) Subject: RE: So Long and Thanks for all the Fish Date: 1 Jul 85 12:45:47 GMT > I can't say I've noticed any discrepancies between English and > American versions of SLATFATF, but in _Life, the Universe, and > Everything_, when Arthur Dent crossed the Atlantic he changed from > a "Complete A**hole" to a "Complete Kneebiter." At least as far > as Wowbagger was concerned..... > Will Duquette Another change between the British and American versions of _Life, Universe, and Everything_ was the title of the award won by the person who possessed the silver bail. The British version had the award going to the most gratuitous use of a famous four letter word beginning with F, denoting sexual relations, while in the American version, the award was for the most gratuitous use of the world "Belgium". They also had to add a few extra sentences explaining this. Eric Stern ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: The Black Company Trilogy Date: 2 Jul 85 15:34:35 GMT SUTHERLAND@TL-20A.ARPA writes: >Try Glen Cook's "Black Company" trilogy (The Black Company, Shadows >Linger, and The White Rose). The Black Company of the title is a >mercenary company trying to survive and fulfill their contracts (in >that order). The series is VERY bleak, but it is good reading. On the contrary, I got a big kick out of the Black Company and found it not a bit depressing. The members of the company were certainly capable of military atrocities, the most memorable for me being the point at which they forced a group of prisoners to dig trenches for fallen dead, then killed the prisoners and threw them in the graves too. At the same time, the company recognized such actions as evil and usually tried to find alternatives to bloodshed. Moreover, there is a significant emotional difference for me between mercenary ruthlessness and love of death, stupid self-hate, and banal violence. I understand ruthless self-preservation, especially since the people they were fighting were no more noble. On the other hand, the love of suffering displayed by Donaldson's Ravers, and the constant self-disgust of Covenant and Linden Avery are simply loathesome, without the excuse of self-preservation. I agree that the Black Company have no noble sentiments about war or heroism and that the books are much grittier than most fantasy, but I think the villainy is of an entirely different nature than the Covenant books. For me, the Black Company books were not downers at all (and the third book was rather charming). Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson) Subject: Re: 'END OF THE WORLD' BOOKS Date: 4 Jul 85 01:19:36 GMT Is Steven King too verbose for you? Try Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's "Time of the Fourth Horseman", c 1976. "Twenty-first century medical science has wiped out all of the deadly diseases. Yet in one American city patients have begun to flock to the hospitals with smallpox, diphtheria, and all the other enemies that were supposed to have been defeated forever, plunging the over-populated city into an epidemic of death, violence, and destruction...." "Yarbro has a fine way with the wicked and a clean, terse style ... a versatile and distinctive talent." -- Kirkus Review "Her writing flashes with a dark and bloody vividness." -- Publishers Weekly 250 pages you will *not* put down. -- Lum Johnson Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!keith@topaz.arpa (Keith Nemitz) Subject: review of COCOON Date: 28 Jun 85 18:17:14 GMT 'Never too old to be young' is a cheap phase to illustrate the content of this well made film. Still there is a very heartening message in Cocoon for all ages. Dreams and reality do not need to conflict. Enough sentimentality, this is a well made and very entertaining film. First let me get the few bad points out of the way, so there is more time to discuss why you will like this movie. The science fiction sucks, fortunately, it is not a s-f movie. Cocoon is pure fantasy, and if not very logical it is extremely heartwarming. My question is why do these incredibly powerful aliens need to disguise themselves as humans, to charter a fishing boat, to retrieve twenty Cocoons from what could not be more than six hundred feet of water, as told from the diving equipment used? The rest of the movie is terrific. The three geezers are good characterizations, well played by experienced actors. The fat old codger, the aging Don Juan, and the tired old man, beset by cancer are all familiar and real, if not saddening. Inherently childish in their secret trespassing of an empty house to use the indoor pool, the three men stumble upon an apparent fountain of youth, and as they become healthier and stronger, their antics become more and more like three children at play. But never, do they lose track of their responsibilities (except for one case of infidelity). As far as they are concerned, this bountiful gift could end the next day, and they are content to simply enjoy it, and even share it. This is definitely a four dollar movie. keith ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 4 Jul 1985 10:22:32-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Lovecraft-based movies > From: bader (miles bader) @ cmu-psy-a (actually Anthony A. Datri) > 2) I have seen the movie "The Dunwich Horror" which was supposed > to be based on Lovecraft's story of the same name, but really > wasn't. (Stella Stevens in a Lovecraft movie......), but a book > I have says that there have been "at least four" movies made > out of Lovecraft. Anyone know what they were? Consulting: Weinberg, Robert E. & Edward P. Berglund, READER'S GUIDE TO THE CTHULHU MYTHOS ["Second Revised Edition"] (Albuquerque: Silver Scarab Press, 1973) Lee, Walt, REFERENCE GUIDE TO FANTASTIC FILMS [3 volumes] (Los Angeles: Chelsea-Lee Books, 1972-74) I found references to three film adaptations of Lovecraft, including THE DUNWICH HORROR (regardless of how close, or not, as the case may be, you think it comes to Lovecraft, it *is* still a film version of the story). The other two are: (1) THE HAUNTED PALACE, American-International, 1963, screenplay by Charles Beaumont, adapted from "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" (with a little E. A. Poe thrown in for good measure). (2) DIE, MONSTER, DIE! [a.k.a. MONSTER OF TERROR], American International, 1965, screenplay by Jerry Sohl, adapted from "The Colour Out of Space". The supposed fourth film may well have been made after the above reference works were published. I don't recall any other film based on Lovecraft's work, though. A few years ago, a small company made plans to film a movie called, if I can remember correctly, THE SPELL OF CTHULHU, which was an "original" story, not an adaptation. Haven't heard a word about it since. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 85 02:05:46 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Pseudo-review of Red Sonja movie; some slight spoilage Micro Review: When oh when are we going to be able to get Dino de Laurentis' foot off of the neck of SF and fantasy moviemaking? Mini Review: If you liked the Conan movies, you will probably like this one. If you didn't like the Conan movies, you might like this anyway. I can't tell if my mind is slipping or if de Laurentis is slipping and some quality slid through his concept-to-dreck conversion mechanism; the acting and plot seemed a little better than usual for his films. Although I have some quibbles with the movie due to knowing something about the characters and the "historical ages" involved, I think this is passable quality thud and bloonder once you've set your expectations down to the level of the Conan movies. Review: In general the movie flows along nicely; the plot advances smoothly, and there isn't TOO much bad dialogue. There is plenty of that fancy sword whirling that we came to know and love in the Conan movies; I would love to know where the Hyperborian people get there wrist bones from, they must be made of titanium steel alloy to whip xxxthose swords around like that all the time. There is some really nice looking scenery (no, no, not the warrior maidens or Red Sonja, I mean the hillsides, mountains, woods, and such like, that everyone gets to ride around in). The villains are acceptably villainous, the hero(in)es quite heroic in skill and attitude. The magic isn't overdone (although I can't take the wizard with 3 inch fingernails seriously at all, it always looks like he is about to stab himself in the hand), and the swordplay is nicely choreographed (but I still wonder about the wrists). In going to see the film, I had adjusted my expectation level down to where de Laurentis films seem to fall, so bad dialogue, slighty silly plot, mediocre acting, and terrible direction didn't bother me the way they did for the first Conan movie. Nevertheless, I have a few complaints about details of the movie. As in the first Conan movie, they have tampered with the "origin" of the character without sufficient justification, fortunately it is much less tampering than in the Conan movie; the tampering seems to have been done just to provide Sonja with a reason to hate the villainess, which isn't really necessary. The movie also suffers from a failure to tell you things soon enough; an example is Sonja's vow, an integral part of her character, which gets dropped on you in mid-movie. A comic relief group has been added, totally unnecessarily (one of them reminds me greatly of Sancho Panza); they get used later and need plenty of rescuing along the way, or least one of them does, but their comic relief function generally detracts from the film along the way. One problem that irked me throughout the film is that the characters incessantly called on God when swearing, instead of their own particular god or goddess, and it is pretty clear that not one of these people believes in God. I didn't hear one call to Crom or even Mitra in the whole movie! One last quibble: although Robert E. Howard, who originally created the character, has been credited, I failed to see any credit for Marvel Comics which actually developed the version of the character that the movie is based on. This can be a fun movie if you don't mind the fact that it suffers from Dino de Laurentis syndrome (where scriptwriters and directors don't have a good feel for the genre or the characters they are working with). So turn your expectation level down and find a theatre that is showing Red Sonja for $2 and watch for your own pet peeves while you view this movie (like I did). (If you want a GOOD movie, you should just go see Cocoon instead and skip anything that de Laurentis touched.) Oh, yes, the sexist review (for anyone still reading): Brigitte Neilsen (sp?) who plays Sonja is a superb piece of flesh and the various warrior maidens in the battle scene aren't bad either. I suspect that they will get a lot of repeat male viewers who like drooling over Sonja, especially for the opening scenes. I suspect that I can wait for the movie to make it to cable, however, before I view it again. ------------------------------ Subject: UFO (or "The Personal Disasters of Cmdr. Straker") Date: 02 Jul 85 22:52:14 PDT (Tue) From: Alastair Milne Those who remember this favourably remember more than I can answer to. I can't easily think of another show, sf or otherwise, with as grey a disposition, or such unfailingly unattractive characters. Col. Lake particularly always looked as if she were sucking lemons, or expecting the world's worst line from the next man she encountered. I can't recall ever seeing Straker looking other than grim, even after he was just married. Snideness seemed a way of life for Alec Freeman and Paul Foster. Captain Carlin and Captain Waterman appeared too seldom for anybody to say what they were like. General Henderson was an ogre. The only person I remember in any really good light is Miss Eland, and her appearances were limited to Straker's arrival at his "office". While this sounds superficially as if it might be closer to reality than series where everything always ends happily ever after, it really isn't any better balanced, or a more accurate view of life. One side says things are always basically good; the other says things are always basically grim. The first, if inaccurate, at least leaves a generally good mood behind. The second, no better in accuracy, just leaves a sour feeling. If you enjoy sour feelings, take them and welcome. I suppose lots of people must, or Trevanian's novels wouldn't sell nearly so well; but that doesn't mean at all that all of us do. And it's no better a way to understand people. The pseudo-science they managed to avoid getting too terrible by avoiding for the most part the whole subject, and staying mostly with Earthside events. But there were still a lot of strange things: why the women on moon base wore lavender hair (though they looked normal enough on earth); why moon base was equipped with exactly 3 interceptors, whose (single) projectile was almost the entire front half of the craft, which seems to lack a little for efficiency; why, for all the oceans of Earth, there was **one** Skydiver -- with one Sky fighter plane; or how the craft -- I hardly dare call them rockets -- that shuttled to moon base managed to land backward in their gantries, as if the pilot were backing his car into the garage. Their only propulsion was a single rocket at the stern. The earth side of things was done moderately well. Low, sleek cars, with gull-wing doors. The doors opened just quickly enough so that you couldn't really say "nobody would ever use something like that", but no quicker. The clothes were certainly nothing impressive, not even the fishnet jumpsuits that SHADO personnel (male and female) always wore. Perhaps the best things were the UFOs' attacks while on earth. The sequences were usually swift and taut, with a minimum of special effects, and the attacking craft often partly hidden by trees or brush (over many roads in England the trees almost meet overhead, forming a virtual tunnel), which heightened the tension and the horror: you could hardly tell where it was, or where the next shot would come from. There were, I grant, one or two episodes worth seeing. I recall one where Col. Foster crashed on the moon, and was injured, with his spacesuit damaged. He was found by an alien who, instead of killing him, assisted him back toward moon base, several days' journey, with constant repairs needed to Foster's suit, and the constant fear between the two temporary allies who otherwise would have been deadly enemies. It was powerful. There was another good one where the aliens created models of SHADO's operations, for the purpose of disrupting SHADO's communications and originating orders of their own. Unfortunately, these good ones stand out against a grey, uninspired background. One cancellation I can't regret. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Jul 85 1618-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #248 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 8 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 248 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Chalker & King & Sucharitkul & End of the World Stories (2 msgs) & Publishing Books, Comics - Crossfire, Films - Back to the Future, Television - Majel Barrett & Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - Discrepancies & Controlling Time (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Monday, 1 Jul 1985 10:07:42-PDT From: lionel%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: So Long and Thanks for All the Fish - US vs. British As a contribution to the discussion on differences between the British and US versions of SLaTFAtF, I noted that in my SFBC edition, Arthur drove a VW Rabbit. Unless he had it specifically imported from America, what he was really driving was a Golf. (Of course, they're now Golfs in the US too...) What does he drive in the British version? Steve Lionel ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Jack Chalker Date: 30 Jun 85 17:10:19 GMT *** mild spoiler warning *** > In many of his stories [...] a previously strong, likable female >character is transformed into some weird sort of mutant >sex-creature for no adequately explored reason. As far as I can tell, Chalker uses the *same* two ideas in every book he writes: shape change and mind control/tyranny. He is reasonably inventive in coming up with variations on these, but as far as I am concerned, enough is enough. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 2 Jul 1985 10:55:11-PDT From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: STEPHEN KING NEWS According to the LOCUS (July issue) Stephen King has just signed a two book deal for $10,000,000 (TEN Million dollars !!!). This is supposed to be the largest fiction deal ever made. The two books are "THE TOMMYKNOCKERS" and "MISERY", both books were sold to New American Library. In the LOCUS article it gives a 14 month period (Sept. 1986 - Nov. 1987) in which a new King book (hardcover) will come out every 3 1/2 months. The books in order of publication will be "IT", "MISERY", "EYES of the DRAGON" and "THE TOMMYKNOCKERS". Other publication dates listed in the article are, "THINNER" paperback edition Aug. 1985, "THE TALISMAN" paperback Oct. 1985, the four early Bachman books ("RAGE","ROADWORK","THE LONG WALK" and "THE RUNNING MAN") will come out as a trade paerback omnibus in Nov. 1985 and the paperback for "SKELETON CREW" will come out in the spring of 1986. Not listed in the LOCUS article but supposedly scheduled for late 1985 or early 1986 is "THE DARK TOWER: The Drawing of the Four" hardcover. KEN COBB ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 85 19:51:16 EDT From: David A. Adler Subject: HELP!! The Throne of Madness I was casually reading The Throne of Madness by Somtow Sucharitkul and was about to start the last chapter when I flipped to the end to see how many pages were left. To my surprise the top half of the last page is GONE! I suppose that's what you get when you borrow library books, but I could only find the last two books of the series in local bookstores. Could somebody please send me the text from the last two pages. It is pages 253 and 254 from the 1983 edition published by Timescape Books. David Adler (DAA@MIT-MC.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Jul 85 07:36 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: The End of Civilization as We Know It Another book in this vein is "The HAB Theory" (Or something like that - I read it a long time ago, and the book is in my parents attic.) It postulates recurring destruction of civilization - civilization grows, and is destroyed by a recurring natural disaster (a HUGE natural disaster!). The book was very good as I remember, but it was not real popular, and it was billed as Fiction rather than SF (I think). Good luck finding a copy! >>Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 09:30 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: End of { Civilization, Mankind, Earth, the Universe } If you enjoy these kinds of stories, I recommend an anthology called Catastrophies! by someone I forget, but I think it was Baen. There is in particular a story called Dark Benediction that I really enjoyed. I recommend this book heartily. Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Publishing a book - how? Date: 1 Jul 85 17:07:57 GMT What is the usual fee for a new author of a fantasy novel. Are trilogies worth more? What is the procedure for choosing and obtaining a publisher? Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 85 21:46:28 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Crossfire and Mark Evanier Since there is much talk mail going back and forth here about television shows and movies and how bad/good various ones are, I thought people might be interested in a current comic book being written by a man who spent (still spends) much time working in Hollywood in the writing end of the TV and movie business. More precisely, I thought people might be interested in the essays he substitues for a letter column. Although it is not directly related to SF-L, the columns are extremely well written and very interesting reading. (In fact the whole book is.) Crossfire is published by Eclipse comics and costs about $1.25 per issue. Steve Z. ------------------------------ From: watmath!bstempleton@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: Back to the Future, review, comment on Spielberg, followed by Subject: Spoiler Date: 1 Jul 85 17:28:44 GMT Just saw "Back to the Future", a new film starring Christopher Lloyd and with Spielberg as executive producer. Nano-Review: See it!! This film is certainly not a hard-sf time travel story, but it is a lot of *fun*, and you will enjoy it. It's professional in quality and is full of truly wonderful time travel situations. While there have been many time travel stories, none have exploited the humour of paridoxical situations (like dating your mother) as well as this one. It's true there are lots of inconsistencies and paradoxes, but the movie isn't really making a pretense at accuracy in time travel, whatever that is anyway. For a while (after the Goonies) I was worried that Spielberg was just putting his name on sf/adventure films for a quick buck without making sure they were of the best quality. This film, however, is top quality, superior to Goonies and Gremlins. And now on to the inconsistencies... (S P O I L E R) You heard me, I said SPOILER!!!. Why are you reading any further if you haven't seen the movie? Too curious? Don't read this I tell you, it will spoil the plot!!!!!! The mistake this film makes is it tries to use both the "parallel universe" time change scheme and the standard "change in history takes 'time' to propogate forward" scheme. Either of these allows the protagonist to change his history and then change it back. They make it clear that he is affected by the change - he starts to fade from existence. In the end, he gets his parents together, but leaves his father a changed man, resulting in tremendous changes in his present. Yet when he returns, these changes have not affected him. So you must have Marty I and Marty II. Now Marty I returns ten minutes early to see Marty II speed off back in time. What happens when he arrives? Does he meet Marty I? They didn't in the movie, but perhaps they do a second time around, talk it over, and decide to stop interfering. But with both present, WHO GETS TO GO BACK? Or is the Doc clever enough not to set the time controls to the same time? But if Marty II goes somewhere else, now separated from his much nicer parents, he either never returns or creates yapu (yet another parallel universe) and so on ad infinitum. Of course perhaps Marty II goes back and he and Marty I agree to let their parents meet normally, and they simply switch universes with Marty II losing his 4X4. If not, Marty I has no remorse over effectively killing his real parents and the universe they lived in. The moral of the story is, you can't mix parallel universe paradox resolution with propogating change paradox resolution. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software, Waterloo, Ont. (519) 884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 85 10:03 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: So maybe I do rant and rave a bit... Concerning the Gen Roddenberry attempts at TV series (is that ALL he did?), Majel was in just about every one of them. She was in The Cage as Number One, and in Star Trek as Nurse Chapel. She was in the Questor Tapes as a doctor, and she was in the occult show, Spectre, with Robert Culp. I'm willing to bet she was also in Genesis II and Planet Earth, but I haven't seen them recently enough. Gene seems to be the only person in the biz that thinks she really is an actress. How does the net feel? Who can act better, her or Barbara Bain? And the big question is can either of them act? ( Just trying to start an argument ) Jon Pugh ------------------------------ Date: 3 Jul 85 01:51 EDT (Wed) From: _Bob Subject: Space: 1999 >From: Alastair Milne >If a similar amount of work had gone into removing Barbara Bain, >the series might have done better. What wonderful things contracts >are: you have no acting talent worthy of the name, no >expressiveness, no park of character, and they can't get rid of you >because you have a contract. Aw c'mon. Get off Barbara Bain's case. *I* liked her, and hubby Martin Landau too. 1. Their style of acting struck just the right zombie-like note for Space: 1999. 2. They @i(looked) just like real space-travelers will look, when the technology is mature enough so that the sort of subtly strange and ugly people that live next door to you will make up the crews. 3. As a matter of fact, they look just like the mother and father of some high-school kid (which they probably were), trying to make an honest buck (which they certainly were). I remember always being grateful my family didn't look as weird as my classmates' families (at least they didn't to me), and I get a memory of that feeling from watching BB and ML. She looked like she puts on the makeup with a trowel to hide the fact she is 49. He just looked embalmed. 4. There isn't an American actor or actress in a thousand who wouldn't be better occupied busing dishes in a greasy spoon. As a matter of fact, there are only about a thousand or so who are regularly employed, and every watcher of HBO soon comes to know and loath each of them. The women are all sexless narcissistic bubbleheads, the men are self-infatuated glitzy prettyboys. BB and ML were not pretty, were not charmed with themselves, and always gave the impression that @i(they) thought busing dishes would be more fun. 5. They were also very good in Mission Impossible, although no one but me seems to think that qualified as SF. They were always so sullen about being upstaged by the Barney character. _Bob (Art Should Mirror Life) Carter UUCP: {allegra|packard}!topaz!ru-blue!carter ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan) Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on) Date: 29 Jun 85 09:43:46 GMT > From: rick@iddic.UUCP (Rick Coates) > The reason that faster-than-light is acceptable is that it is > explained, and has rules. The use of faster-than-light travel in almost all SF is pretty assinine, because almost no SF story considers the full effect that a faster-than-drive would have on the world that is described in the story. According to Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel is exactly equivalent to traveling backwards in time: there is no difference. (This is similar to the way in which Special Relativity equates mass and energy as being exactly the same thing.) Thus, if faster-than-light travel is possible, time travel is possible, and thus causality is violated. But how many SF stories that have faster-than-light travel, consider these extremely important ramifications? It is pretty silly that SF stories use faster-than-light travel, because almost any story that does use it could be easily rewritten to use parallel universes instead, without these problems. Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA) ------------------------------ From: cae780!alan@topaz.arpa (Alan M. Steinberg) Subject: Re: SF on controlling Time Date: 26 Jun 85 20:02:58 GMT >>Does anybody know any good SF about CONTROLLING time (everybody >>elses), as opposed to time travel (controlling your local time)? >A classic along these lines is "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and >Everything" ... . There was a movie by the same name that was a >fairly decent rendition of the book. > The book was a bit better than the movie in describing the theory. John D. MacDonald (famous for his Travis McGee mysteries) is also a good "contemporary SF" writer, using today's world as his settings. In "The Girl, the Gold Watch, and Everything" (the book), the magical watch doesn't stop time for all but the user, but SLOWS it down tremendously (in the user's timeframe). Thanks to some basic physics (which I have forgotten most of), the hero Kirby Winter could only move things very slowly when the watch was ticking, because of the mass/velocity/time ratios (or something like that). Of course, the TV movie couldn't spend 10 minutes watching him move a body, so it is not as scientific. There was also a sequel to the movie, which stunk (different actors playing the lead roles-- that's a sequel?). Alan Steinberg {ucbvax}!decwrl!amdcad!cae780!alan ------------------------------ Subject: controlling time Date: 30 Jun 85 02:32:45 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne The background of Dr. Who deals very much with controlling time. That is part of why the Time Lords are called "Time Lords". However, there is little evidence on the series that Gallifrey actually exercises such control anymore, and in fact, their habits of non-interference and withdrawal from the universe strongly suggest that they don't. However, time is most certainly controlled in two or three Dr. Who episodes. In "Meglos", the adversary jams the TARDIS, and therefore the Doctor, Romana, and K9, in a "chronic hysteresis loop", in which the same period of time repeats indefinitely, with a gap of normal time as the loop is "rewound". Interestingly, they are aware of the loop -- which starts driving them bonkers. In "The Armageddon Factor", the Doctor uses the nearly-completed Key to Time, with an artificial last segment, to put an attacking space ship into a time loop, so that for a couple of hours (or some such period) the ship is always 2 seconds away from attacking. In fact, the whole premise of the Key to Time was that it would permit its possessor to control the flow of time. The White Guardian wanted it to stop time temporarily so as to right a few things with the Universe before it fell to pieces. Earlier in the series, in "The Pyramids of Mars", the Doctor uses the time control from the TARDIS to shift the end of Sutekh's time-space tunnel several thousand years into the future, far past his (Sutekh's) lifetime: he would emerge dead of old age. Though it may be due to odd editing, it often seems to me that time inside the TARDIS must bear the same arbitrary relationship to time outside it, that space inside it bears to space outside it. It often seems that the Doctor has only just shut the door, going inside, when the TARDIS dematerialises, or before he comes back out with something that must have taken him half an hour, inside, to find. Rather like the Pevenseys' visits to Narnia. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Jul 85 0842-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #252 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 252 Today's Topics: Books - Cook & Silverberg & Zelazny (2 msgs), Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) & Cocoon, Television - Majel Barrett & Star Trek & Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Discrepancies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Book Review: The Fire in His Hands :slight spoilage Date: 8 Jul 85 15:59:57 GMT I have just finished Glen Cook's The Fire in His Hands and the sequel, With Mercy Towards None. The setting for these stories is post-Dynastic, in other words a great Empire was shattered over a typically trivial squabble. The main culture is that of the fallen people, which is sort of a mix between mexican and arab nomads. There is a ruling class, the Royalists, who are the remnants of the royalty before "The Fall". This is an epic of religious conquest and numerous battles. I have no complaint as far as the description of the battles. Those of you who have read William Forschtein's Fire on the Ice series and enjoyed the blood and gore will find this book equally amusing. The plot summary is this: a young boy survives the pillage of his father's caravan and is left for dead in the desert. Despite all odds he shows up out of the desert thirty days later and claims to have been saved by an angel of the Lord. He has renamed himself El Murid, the Disciple and has come to return the Lord's chosen people, these nomads, to His way. Ok. The story builds his allies and trails his progress until the end of the second book where things have come to a kind of uneasy standstill. Cook has created a nice historic type story. He includes scenes of magic and clerical power in terms of El Murid. The battle strategies are interesting and the author really plays with your heartstrings- both sides of the battle are always that close to defeat. I recommend this story for people who like: a) battle b) religion and clerical Powers c) real Magic in that order. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ From: genie!sonja@topaz.arpa (Sonja Bock) Subject: Tom O'Bedlam - Robert Silverberg - Donald I. Fine, Inc. 1985 Date: 8 Jul 85 03:33:58 GMT Tom O'Bedlam Robert Silverberg Donald I. Fine, Inc. 1985 One of the first words that comes to mind in describing Silverberg's writing is 'haunting'. This book is a classic example. The real force of this book is the way the reader is asked to participate, with the characters, in belief. The books follows all of the main characters through the unraveling of their own world through the intervention of many others. If the evidence of our own senses and emotions, and even our technology is to be believed, mankind is not only not alone, but is invited to share in a varied and ecstatically beautiful universe. The phenomenon is real, but is it really demi-gods from distant stars we see, or the phantasies projected by a seemingly benign telepathic mutant. The prose is beautiful, the characters are involving. Certainly as good as any Silverberg so far. ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" by Zelazny Date: 28 Jun 85 22:47:00 GMT I just finished a first reading of a Zelazny story in the July IASFM, and I'm surprised not to have noticed it mentioned here already. (Did I miss it?) It's called "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai". I'm not going to try to describe its plot or review it. I will say, however, that this story should really cheer any of you out there like me who have been disappointed by Zelazny's more recent work. My library is still in boxes after a move, so I can't quote titles that disappointed me other than to cite the Amber series, which seemed awfully light and puffy and beneath him. In my opinion, this story should be classed up there with Lord of Light; Dream Master; This Immortal; (~)Door of his Mouth, Lamps of his Eyes; Rose for Ecclesiastes and other great short stories. I think it has soul (which is doubtless as difficult to define as quality and possibly more rare). I haven't been buying sf magazines or many anthologies the past 5-10 years. If Zelazny's been writing stories of this quality that I've missed, I hope someone like Jerry Boyajian or SZKB will point me to them. reg ------------------------------ From: genie!sonja@topaz.arpa (Sonja Bock) Subject: Trumps of Doom - Roger Zelazny - Latest in the Amber Series Date: 7 Jul 85 00:56:48 GMT Trumps of Doom Roger Zelazny Arbor House 1985 The Amber series, beginning with the prototype novel "Jack of Shadows" in 1971 and climaxing (in the good old sci-fi tradition followed by Franks Herbert & Sinatra, Asimov and Farmer) in 1978 with "Courts of Chaos" continues on in the newest release,"Trumps of Doom" (1985). Courts left us with Corwin the Mad Prince triumphant in saving Amber from disintegration, Oberon the King dead and the slightly Loki-like (but all-round Good Egg) Random on the throne of Amber, and Corwin himself, now the father of Merlin by Dara of Chaos, oiling off into Shadow for (we hope) a busman's holiday. Now, some eight years later (by Amber or Earth Shadow time, take your pick) we continue the Amber saga with Merle (a.k.a. Merlin) who has just completed a stint with a computer firm in San Francisco. As often happens in the Amber royal house, Merle's father is missing, he is lumping around in Shadow, and somebody unknown is trying unsuccessfully kill him. And again as usual, the clues lie in Amber. Just like a James Bond film, this new Amber offering contains the standard accoutrements found in all of the Amber series, deception, mystery, magic, intrigue, and shifting sets and scenes beautifully described. The emergence of a HAL-like computer in Amber keeps the saga current. There is nothing radically different in "Trumps", but then again, does there need to be? A long awaited sequel sure to be appreciated by any confirmed Amber fan. For those readers who are not entirely familiar, or who have grown unfamiliar in the years between 71 and 85, here is the complete "Amber" selection in chronological order: Nine Princes in Amber The Guns of Avalon The Sign of the Unicorn The Hand of Oberon The Courts of Chaos The Trumps of Doom The book "Jack of Shadows" deals with Shadow, but not necessarily with Amber, although the similarities between Jack and Corwin are too great to be ignored. Any and all are good exciting reads, and all are available in used bookstores everywhere, although if Asimov's and Herbert's and Farmer's most recent efforts are any precedent, someone is bound to reprint the entire series in the near future. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: BACK TO THE FUTURE Date: 2 Jul 85 02:24:42 GMT BACK TO THE FUTURE A film review by Mark R. Leeper The last film that came out with Stephen Spielberg's name on it was GOONIES. After seeing that I decided that these Spielberg-produced films were on a downward spiral. I told myself that I would avoid them in the future. Then a local theater had a sneak preview of BACK TO THE FUTURE and hope sprang eternal. For the first ten minutes of the film I was asking myself why I didn't listen to my advice to myself and stay away. After all, why do I need a film about a cute kid on a skateboard and a horribly over- acted mad scientist? The remaining 106 minutes answered that question rather nicely. In fact, BACK TO THE FUTURE has few or none of the script problems that I saw in GOONIES. Instead, we have a tightly written science fiction story with likable characters, a fair amount of wit that really *is* funny, and a great collection of time paradoxes presented in a witty fashion. Nobody who has read the basics of science fiction or seen much of science fiction cinema will find much in the way of real ideas, but the old ideas are tied together in a way as entertaining as they have ever been in the past. The story deals with Marty McFly, whose father is a life-long nerd and whose life is in a shambles. Marty has somehow acquired the friendship of a really weird scientist (Christopher Lloyd), who one night reveals that he has made a few special modifications to a DeLorean car. When it is powered with plutonium and is moving at precisely 88mph, it becomes a time machine. It isn't too long before our hero finds himself trapped in 1955 and madly trying to repair changes he has made in history. The script (by director Robert Zemeckis and producer Bob Gale), after a shaky start, is remarkable for clever lines and for attention to technical detail. In spite of a few bizarre touches, this film works as a piece of science fiction. The cast is made up almost exclusively of unknowns. The minor exceptions are Lloyd, whose face is familiar from ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST--he played a belligerent inmate--and from TO BE OR NOR TO BE. Also familiar-looking is James Tolkan as the vice-principal of the local high school. This is a +2 film (on the -4 to +4 scale) and I consider it to be the best thing with Spielberg's name on it since E. T. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Re: BACK TO THE FUTURE (Christopher Lloyd) Date: 6 Jul 85 03:08:28 GMT Lest we forget, Rev. Jim (Taxi) also played the Klingon Commander in THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, John Bigbuti in BUCKAROO BANZAI, and has been showing up in lots of other things that I can't remember at the moment. I enjoy Lloyd's performances, though he does seem to have been typecast in roles that display a certain detachment from reality! Lewis Barnett, CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 1985 20:04:01 PDT Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #245 From: Stuart Cracraft I thought Cocoon was lousy. It's a blatant ripoff of Spielberg's movies and is a pretty bad movie in and of itself. I have been consistently disappointed by 9 out of 10 movies I have seen in the past 5 years. Garbage. Stuart ------------------------------ From: utflis!brown@topaz.arpa (Susan Brown) Subject: Re: So maybe I do rant and rave a bit... Date: 4 Jul 85 21:45:39 GMT >From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >Concerning the Gene Roddenberry attempts at TV series (is that ALL >he did?), nMajel was in just about all of them. I'm willing to bet >she was also in Genesis II and Planet Earth, but I haven't seen >them recently enough. Gene seems to be the only person in the biz >that thinks she really is an actress. How does the net feel? Who >can act better, her or Barbara Bain? And the big question is can >either of them act? I wouldn't bet: I did see both Genesis II and Planet Earth for the first time recently and there she was. I don't think she's any good as an actress myself, but can't compare to Bain.> ------------------------------ From: varian!fred@topaz.arpa (Fred Klink) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 2 Jul 85 22:56:23 GMT >"Space: 1999" wasn't intended for children any more than was, say >"Star Trek", but it tended to stretch the willing suspension of >disbelief a hell of a lot further. This wasn't due to exotic >imagination, just a lack of understanding of some fundamentals of >SF craftsmanship. I enjoy Star Trek far more than Space 1999 as well, but to say Star Trek didn't stretch willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking point on numerous occasions is, to coin phrase, stretching it! I think the original authors posting was meant to say that judging sci-fi strictly on the basis of scientific accuracy is not a fair means of critique, unless all works of fiction are judged on the same basis. People in detective movies take blow after blow that would knock out a horse-- now thats not very scientifically plausible but we take it willingly as a part of the formula action show. How about horror movies? There's yet to be a case of dead folks walking around causing trouble that made it to the scientific journals, yet we flock to the theatre to willingly subject ourselves to such improbabilities. Part of what is refered to as "SF craftsmanship" has always involved creating that which is scientifically impossible, usually by just bringing in a "technology that is completely unknown to us" as Spock seemed to be saying every other week. Also, since I'm a scientist, I have learned to avoid saying that anything is "impossible". ------------------------------ From: ncsu!ftsjmd@topaz.arpa (Mike Davis) Subject: Re: How to fix bad SF Date: 7 Jul 85 18:37:41 GMT There is one segment of a Dr Who episode that has been bothering me for some time. Usually Dr Who has imaginative scripts and well thought stories. The sf isn't hard core but when they show something it usually is correct, or good enough that I would allow them "poetic license". Example: the episode Enlightment, dumb premise, a yacht race in space, but the explanation of the wind being the solar wind and the gravity of the planets providing the force to steer against the wind was quite good. What gets me is Four to Doomsday, where the Doctor is stranded in space midway between another space craft and his Tardis. He pulls a cricket ball out of his pocket and throws it at the space ship, when he catches it on the rebound he has the momentum to reach his Tardis. He should have also gotten some momentum from throwing the ball!!! If the writers had figured out the solar sailing business I would have thought they would have figured this out too. Mike Davis ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on) Date: 1 Jul 85 18:35:59 GMT > The use of faster-than-light travel in almost all SF is pretty > assinine, because almost no SF story considers the full effect > that a faster-than-drive would have on the world that is described > in the story. According to Special Relativity, faster-than-light > travel is exactly equivalent to traveling backwards in time: there > is no difference. (This is similar to the way in which Special > Relativity equates mass and energy as being exactly the same > thing.) Thus, if faster-than-light travel is possible, time > travel is possible, and thus causality is violated. But how many > SF stories that have faster-than-light travel, consider these > extremely important ramifications? > Doug Alan Actually Heinlein used exactly that premise in 'Time Enough for Love', but most 'FTL' drives in SF don't literally assume you can go faster than light. They use 'warp drives' through 'Hyperspace', which is usually defined to be an alternate universe of some sort which has a one-to-one mapping onto our universe, but is much smaller. There are many variations on this theme, of course. So there is no violation of Relativity. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Jul 85 0903-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #253 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 253 Today's Topics: Books - Blish & Chalker & The Oz Canon (5 msgs), Films - Red Sonja, Television - Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jul 85 10:27:46 GMT From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM Subject: Spindizzies A few issues ago somebody asked something to the effect of, "By the way, what are spindizzies, anyway?" It's obvious that you have a good read ahead of you - _Cities_in_Flight_ by James Blish. 'Nuff said. Keith M. Dale (kdale@minet-vhn-em.arpa) BBN Comm Corp Stuttgart, W. Germany ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Fri, 5 Jul 85 15:32:03 PDT Subject: Another quote from Jack Chalker Regarding the recent discussion about sequels, consider this from Jack Chalker's _The_River_of_Dancing_Gods_: "The Books of Rules, Volume 16, page 103, section 12(d). . .'All epics must be at least trilogies,'. . ." Bruce N. Wheelock arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: The Oz canon and the film Date: 3 Jul 85 01:29:42 GMT >From: Jerry Sweet >Book 41: a few months ago, I saw a book named "A Barnstormer In >Oz", by Philip Jose Farmer (I think--it sounds right, since he's >the self-appointed chronicler/perpetuator of a number of >"mythologies"). Anyone read it? Yes, I read the thing. This is a spoiler, in case anyone cares. Farmer presents the story of a barnstormer (test pilot?) who disappears through a "dimensional gate" which is a few hundred feet above ground, open when certain weird electrical conditions are met. His pilot has no particular personal charm. This individual discovers that Oz is a besieged place ruled by the iron hand of a sex-witch (Glinda) who uses her powers to hold off the influx of the energy creatures from the desert regions which surround the oasis of Oz. Every once in a while one of the less malevolent energy creatures inhabits some mechanism, like the tin statue, or the Barnstormer's airplane. Dorothy is postulated to be a young girl who was accidentally thrown into Oz by a tornado, and that Baum was a neighbor who got the story from her when she returned later, and adapted it into a series of children's fairy tales. The majority of the story concerns the interaction between the other-dimensional Oz and the American military. As usual, Farmer completely destroys the character of the stories, making something cheap, tawdry, and mildly pornographic out of the mileu of Oz. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 4 Jul 1985 03:25:33-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Oz books I won't repeat the wealth of Oz information that others have so eloquently given, but one point remains to be questioned: > From: mccullough.pa@Xerox.ARPA > Another little known fact, visible if you go to a B. Dalton > bookstore and look at the recent republishing of Oz books...most > were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by another author, and > published under Baum's name. I assume that you refer to the recent Del Rey trade paper reprints of some of the Ruth Plumly Thompson Oz books. If so, your "little known fact" is dead wrong. They were *not* published "under Baum's name" --- the by-line is very clearly Ruth Plumly Thompson. There *is* a line referring to the books as "continuing the famous stories of L. Frank Baum" or somesuch (I can't quote it directly) and granted, it's in type as big as the title or by-line, but that's another matter entirely. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: The Oz canon and PJF's "Barnstormer in OZ" Date: 5 Jul 85 18:16:17 GMT hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison) writes: >>From: Jerry Sweet >>Book 41: a few months ago, I saw a book named "A Barnstormer In >>Oz", by Philip Jose Farmer > >As usual, Farmer completely destroys the character of the stories, >making something cheap, tawdry, and mildly pornographic out of the >mileau of Oz. As usual? Disclaimer : I haven't read any of Baum's books but I have seen the Judy Garland film. What Farmer does is to look at a fictional place/situation as if it was *real*! This implies an adult, rational view of fantastic situations i.e. how *does* the strawman *exist*? I can appreciate Baum's readers would be offended, as Hutch above ... but, I found the book quite entertaining. I guess, as always, its up to you, but if you want to take a different view of a well-known place, this is worth a read. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!icdoc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Re: Re: Aux armes, Citoyens! Date: 2 Jul 85 02:55:00 GMT >...as well as the several Oz books written after Baum's death I >don't remember the author's name.) there were more Oz books written after Baum died than he himself wrote. The author was female(!) and wrote about 18 books, for a total of abou t 35 books before 1954. orstcs/richardt ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 85 09:41:42 EDT (Monday) From: foltman.Henr@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Oz Books - Ruth Plumly Thompson Ruth Plumly Thompson was the niece of Lyman Frank Baum. She used to listen to many of the stories that Baum used to tell as she was growing up, so she was familiar with the characters. More information on the topic of Baum, Thompson, and Oz can be found in The Annotated Wizard of Oz by Michael Patrick Hearn, or from the International Wizard of Oz Club, c/o Fred Meyer, Secretary, Box 95, Kinderhook, IL 62345. The Baum Bugle presents some interesting little known facts on many different subjects. Mary Ann Foltman (foltman.henr) ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: "Red Sonja" Date: 5 Jul 85 06:56:00 GMT "Red Sonja" could be worse, so I can't complain too much about it. Basically, it's a sword and sorcery potboiler, just as I expected. It has some unexpectedly good points and some unnecessarily bad ones. If one likes this sort of thing, the bad points won't entirely ruin it. Oddly, though, some the good points won't make too much difference to fans of this sort of film. Red Sonja (having very little relation to the character in one of Robert Howard's Conan stories) is a woman warrior who seeks to avenge the death of her family. An evil queen slaughtered them all when Sonja refused to be her lover. After the massacre, Sonja meets up with something suspiciously reminiscent of Glinda the Good. Whatever this special effect is supposed to be, it somehow gives her strength to become a powerful swordswoman. While she's off training, her sister, who must have missed out on the massacre, is helping neutralize a powerful green globe which, unless kept in darkness, will shortly destroy the world. The evil queen bursts in at the appropriate moment, slaughters all the priestesses, and steals the globe for her predictably nefarious purposes. Sonja's sister escapes, fatally wounded, to the arms of someone who isn't Conan but is played by Arnold Schwarzenegger, who takes her to Sonja, who swears to recover the globe, and we're off to the races. Silly plot complications, in the form of a child prince and his loyal protector and a romantic subplot between Sonja and Arnie (hindered by Sonja's hatred for men and her oath to give herself only to a man who can beat her in a fair fight) serve only to pad the film to a sellable length, 88 minutes, in this case. Bad points first. Most important is Brigitte Neilsen, who plays Red Sonja. She is beautiful and well trained in the martial arts. Unfortunately, she makes Tanya Roberts look like Katherine Hepburn. Boy, is she bad! Most unfortunately, laughable as her line readings are, she isn't the worst performer in the film. That honor goes to Ernie Reyes, Jr., who plays the young prince. By the end of the film, I was almost praying that his character would be killed so that I wouldn't have to listen to him mangling any more lines or watch another of his excruciating expressions. His only apparent qualification for the part is a proficiency in martial arts, but even in his fight scenes his grating personality comes through like fingernails scraped on a blackboard. The greatest disappointment of "Red Sonja", though, has to be the performance of Sandahl Bergman. Ms. Bergman was so good in "Conan the Barbarian" that it is saddening to see her give such a bad performance as the wicked queen. I find it hard to convince myself that she is the same actress. Getting back to Master Reyes, who receives my coveted Clint Howard Award for worst new child actor of 1985, even without seeing the rest of the year's films, his inclusion points out another flaw in "Red Sonja". I have no doubt that all connected with the film found him just as annoying as I did, but I suspect they had no choice. Why? Because screenwriters Clive Exton and George McDonald Fraser wrote a vital part for a kid who could do martial arts, and I doubt if any other boy actor was capable of handling this requirement. This is a fundamental error in the script, one of many. Budding screenwriters take note: never write a part that is too hard to cast, or you may see your picture ruined by the likes of Ernie Reyes, Jr., or, for that matter, by Brigitte Neilsen. Other flaws with the script are lack of inventiveness, poor to mediocre dialog, muddled logic, and some outright continuity gaps. As an example of the latter, Sonja is told by the prince's henchman that she can get to the wicked queen's domain by a long safe route or a short dangerous one. Naturally, she takes the latter, survives it (whoops, a spoiler), and moves on, only to find ahead of her ... the prince, who was taking the long route. I am particularly disappointed in Fraser, who writes a fine adventure novel (I recommend his Flashman series) and wrote the screenplay for "The Three Musketeers" and "The Four Musketeers" some years back. I expected a lighter touch and a bit more imagination from him. Richard Fleischer's direction is neither a plus nor a minus. He does a competent hack job. I would have hoped that the son of one of the Fleischer Brothers, crazed animators of the 1930s, would have had a bit more imagination. The vacuity of the project seems to have sapped out of him whatever ideas he might have had, as it did on "Conan the Destroyer". On the other hand, Fleischer is a very old hand on sword epics, going back to "The Vikings" in 1958 (one of the beloved films of my mispent youth), and the experience shows when it comes time to draw the weapons and start hacking about. Moreover, Fleischer deserves a break on the basis of age, being nearly 70. Few directors have the stamina left to do even a polite, low key drawingroom comedy at that age, much less a big special effects/action film. Ennio Morricone's score is another neutral item, but a disappointment, as it proves that Morricone, too, is a mere mortal and cannot be counted on to always come up with a great score. On the plus side, Arnold Schwarzenegger is really developing a flair for this sort of thing. He starts off a bit shakily, but eventually gets on track, giving a convincing enough performance as the brawny hero. He's given less opportunities for humor, a talent he began to show in "The Terminator" and "Conan the Destroyer", which is a pity. Paul Smith is fairly good as the young prince's bearlike servitor. Ronald Lacey is superb as the evil queen's henchman, giving a nicely calculated performance with just enough camp and just enough menace. It's a pity the picture doesn't use him more effectively. The swordfights are quite well staged. They result in precisely the maximum amount of blood, severed limbs, and disgusting sounds of weapons entering flesh to avoid an R rating. The effects are fair to good, with some shaky matte work, some good, etc. The production design is excellent, really strange and creepy. Most fans of this sort of film will barely notice, but Danilo Donati (Fellini's favorite designer) has really done a splendid job in created a very foreign environment. Cinematographer Giuseppe Rotunno, another Fellini alumnus, contributes good photography. Sometimes I like to speculate about unlikely directors and projects. The presence of Donati and Rotunno makes me wonder what "Red Sonja" would have been like if, somehow, producer Dino de Laurentiis had persuaded Fellini, his old colleague, to direct it. Now that's a movie I'd like to see. Or how about if George Lucas talked Ingmar Bergman out of retirement to make the next Star Wars movie? I consider it a minor tragedy that it is too late to see a Luis Bunuel James Bond movie, or a Sergei Eisenstein Friday the 13th sequel. And what, I wonder, would Orson Welles do with "Third Blood"? Alas, producers aren't gamblers and most amateurs don't have the sense of humor required to get involved with this kind of project, but it's fun to speculate. Fassbinder could have done some very strange things with Indiana Jones, I'm sure. But, getting back to the subject at hand, taken as a whole, "Red Sonja" is a slightly better than average adventure picture, marred largely by dreadful performances in key roles. Fans of the genre will probably like it, non-fans will be unsurprised to hear that they might as well skip it. Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa soon to be reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Re: "Where no man has gone before" Date: 3 Jul 85 06:56:00 GMT >How likely is it that anyone would send so expensive a ship off >into nowhere for 5 years? Very. As a general rule, exploration ships fall into two classes: unarmed and armed. Unarmed exploration ships are usually designed so that they are so pathetic as to not be a threat to anyone. Marco Polo did this and it worked fairly well, albeit with a few backfires along the way. Armed explorers tend to be armed with the most powerful weapons that the society can hand to a non-military ship. When you already know of several hostile races in your neck of the galaxy, it is far better to assume that the natives will shoot first and ask questions later than to lose crews in the nether regions of the universe. For one thing, the appearance of an alien ship is usually a dead give-away as to its origin. Besides this, the Enterprise was travelling in regions which were known to have Klingon ships running around in them. In a situation where a nation is exploring out from a multinational border, esp. when one of the nations is hostile, the explorers had better be armed. Besides, human ships are always armed. Haven't you read any space opera? As for naming, I believe most of the visible stars have been named. I see no reason to assume that this trend will stop anytime in the future. Man, as a race, is arrogant. As long as StarFleet sticks to names of the form Starname-Planet_#, they're on well established ground. orstcs/richardt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Jul 85 0924-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #254 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 9 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 254 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Wilson & Zelazny & SF Poll (2 msgs) & Time Control Stories (3 msgs), Television - Time Travel Special, Miscellaneous - Westercon 38 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: fluke!moriarty@topaz.arpa (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Query on the release date for CHANUR'S VENGEANCE Date: 3 Jul 85 09:03:43 GMT Having just finished of CHANUR'S VENTURE, I am, of course, restlessly awaiting the next book. Anyone have any idea when that will be? Please mail responses to me, and I will forward any answers I get to interested parties in two weeks. Huh. Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc. UUCP: {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsri}!uw-beaver \ {allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} !fluke!moriarty ARPA:fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Colin Wilson and LIFEFORCE Date: 7 Jul 85 16:34:25 GMT Colin Wilson, SPACE VAMPIRES, and LIFEFORCE A review by Mark R. Leeper The release of the film LIFEFORCE, based on the novel SPACE VAMPIRES by Colin Wilson, has sparked some discussion of Wilson's science fiction. Wilson's novels, like the film LIFEFORCE, are for rather specialized tastes and are generally quite unpopular. They do, however, have some avid fans. While I am not one, I did enjoy his novels and my defense of his writing has, on occasion, given rise to scorn among local science fiction fans. Our local science fiction society once voted his MIND PARASITES the second worst of about fifty discussion books. Yet I still consider it to be at times one of the most interesting science fiction books I remember reading, due in large part to having the most unusual alien menace. So who is Colin Wilson? He is usually considered to be a philosopher; I think he wrote a book called THE OUTSIDER on the meaning of being a social pariah. The book apparently achieved some popularity. Then one day he noticed that H. P. Lovecraft had written a story called "The Outsider." He read it and did not like it. August Derleth, a friend of Wilson's as well as a big Lovecraft fan, suggested that Wilson try to write something better. So Wilson wrote his first science fiction novel with the rather lurid title THE MIND PARASITES. In it he said that human philosophy tended to be optimistic up to a point, then it turned more pessimistic. You started getting degenerate philosophies like that of the Marquis de Sade. It was his claim that we had been attacked by some alien force that fed off of negative human emotion like depression and sadism. He includes the most amazing descriptions of battles with the aliens taking place, literally, but not figuratively, in his mind. The aliens would attack and he would start feeling rather dismal. Then suddenly he would hit them with a blast of pure optimism, and they would scatter! The premise of the story also says that we have involved to the point where we really are telepathic and telekinetic, but the parasites sap off the energy we need to use these faculties. In spite of the trashy title, I found the story had several interesting ideas to chew on. The ideas were the virtue of the story far more than the story line, but I find many people who really detest the book for reasons I never understood. I have heard people who recommend books with far weaker story lines complain that the story line of this book is weak. The best I can tell is that there is just something indefinable in the book that rubs people the wrong way. Wilson's second science fiction novel is THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE. In many ways it is much like the first novel, though it moves considerably more slowly. The concept is that by special treatments involving the insertion of a special electrical conductor, the brain can be made far more efficient. Among other things, it allows the user to mentally time-travel, and in one sequence a character places himself in Shakespeare's England, only to have many of his cherished beliefs shattered. There is again some alien menace, as I remember, but it is a theme that is not well dealt with. I can remember liking this the best of the three science fiction novels that Wilson has written, but it has been nine years or so since I read it so my memory is weak. The worst of the three is SPACE VAMPIRES. Inspired by the story "Asylum" by A. E. Van Vogt, it concerns an alien life-form brought to Earth. The creatures, who seem to be able to jump from body to body, suck up lifeforce from people they come in contact with. The premise of the book, unlike that of the film, is that the aliens are not really unique. We--all of us--are lifeforce vampires. That's why fresh vegetables taste better to us than stale ones; they retain lifeforce which we consume. Sex is (among other things) a lifeforce transaction. Good sex will involve the trading of lifeforce and each side will end up with more. In sadistic sex, one partner gets more lifeforce by depleting the other. That is one odd thing about SPACE VAMPIRES: it has sex, but it is the least gratuitous sex of any novel I can think of. The explanations of energy exchanges are all-important. We all understand what is going on when there is sex in a Harold Robbins novel, but in this book there is more going on as part and parcel of the sex act. But the monsters of SPACE VAMPIRES go beyond the human sort of vampirism. They accumulate lifeforce but, like a leaky tire, cannot hold on to it and very soon need more. The film, incidentally, could have used this explanation very nicely since it would explain why the victims seem to collect lifeforce but they need more so soon. On the other hand, in many ways the film is better than its source. The contagion of the vampirism in the film makes the menace much more serious. The effect of the invasion in the book would be to increase by two or three the number of sex maniacs in the world. In the film we are dealing with possible world destruction. On top of that, there is considerably more plot to the film than there was in the book. The book has the plot of the first half hour of the film and an incident or two that was in the film later. And then the book has two sequences not in the film. One is a visit to a Swedish expert on vampirism and one is a discussion with the Prime Minister. That and some discussion is about all there is to the book. There is actually a lot more that happens in the film. While the screenplay could have used more explanations, in many ways it was an improvement on the book. But of course, the strong suit of the book is its ideas. Wilson uses his lifeforce premise to explain much about traditional vampires. I, for one, enjoy the DARKER THAN YOU THINK or FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH sort of story where the supernatural turns out to be scientific phenomena that have been wrongly interpreted. The problem is that Wilson does not seem to know much science. He starts including all sorts of already discredited ideas (like Kirlian photography) as accepted scientific fact. That unfortunately discredits much of his thinking. Still, while this is the least enjoyable of the three Wilson novels, it was an enjoyable read, particularly after having seen the film. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Zelazny's "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" Date: 8 Jul 85 03:04:09 GMT "1. Mt. Fuji from Owari "Kit lives, though he is buried not far from here; and I am dead, though I watch the days-end pinking cloudstreaks above the mountain in the distance, a tree in the foreground for suitable contrast. The old barrel-man is dust; his cask, too, I daresay. Kit said that he loved me and I said I loved him. We were both telling the truth. But love can mean many things. It can be an instrument of aggression or a function of disease." This story appeared in the July 1985 issue of Asimov's; I believe the August issue just appeared on the stands.=( I picked it up on the strength of Zelazny's name. If you haven't liked his other stories involving computers (e.g., "Home is the Hangman", and the rest of MY NAME IS LEGION), I suspect you won't like this one. If you don't like the games he's played with religions and gods (e.g., LORD OF LIGHT and PRINCES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS), you probably won't like this story, though it's not the same game. If you don't like his writing style (I quoted the beginning of the story above), avoid this one. And by the way, see if you can get someone to surgically implant some taste into your soul. This is a story of a woman undergoing a pilgrimage. She travels through Japan, visiting sites where twenty-four sketches of Mt. Fuji were drawn (by a ancient Japanese artist named Hokusai). She dreams. She ponders. She fights - but not often or long. If you're looking for action, go watch a re-run of STAR WARS (go ahead, I'll wait). The first time I read "24 Views", I was startled by the brilliance of the writing. (The prose is not Zelazny at his best, which is not brilliant, but blinding). The second time I read it, I was disappointed at the lack of action, and concerned about some ambiguities and the nature of a computer net's behavior in regard to the ending. (I give him the epigons. I'm generous. Also, ignorant of the term and any relation to Japanese tradition.) On the third reading, I was still concerned about the net and the ending, but I came to understand better what I'd considered ambiguities. (Some are deliberately left ambiguous; some are merely subtle.) Not bad. Keep "24 Views" in mind, come Hugo nomination time. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Fri 5 Jul 85 14:00:48-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #247 FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA writes > First, the meaning of Canonical. Since we are not engaged in a > religious discussion, I assume the intended meaning is (-8 Well, maybe not a *Roman Catholic* religious discussion. 8-) I thought that the list was supposed to contain the books that most sf fans have read and found good (for whatever reason); the books that every sf fan should have read; the books that non-sf critics of sf should read before they start flaming or writing critical histories (Anyone else tired of arguing with people who have read only _The_Space_Vampires_ and _The_Purple_Cloud_ and decided that all sf is like them?); and have suggestions of good books that some of us have missed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 5 Jul 85 20:45:05-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #247 >Nuclear Aftermath: Miller, A Canticle for Leibowitz > Stewart, Earth Abides Actually, if I remember correctly, Earth_Abides was about the aftermath of a biological, rather than nuclear disaster. Evan Kirshenbaum ARPA: evan@csli.arpa UUCP: ...!ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan ------------------------------ From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa (Ted Nolan) Subject: Controling time Date: 1 Jul 85 06:23:38 GMT >From: Alfke.PASA@Xerox.ARPA >Mike Parsons asked for some good stories about controlling time, as >opposed to simply time-travel. Let's not forget Keith Laumers Lafayette O'Leary stories. I think the first was called _The Time Bender_. I found them very enjoyable (I haven't yet dared read the latest in the series, given the unrelieved badness of Laumer's recent work - what has happened to this guy? (Laumer, not O'Leary)). Ted Nolan ...decvax!mcnc!ncsu!ncrcae!usceast!ted (UUCP) 6536 Brookside Circle ...akgua!usceast!ted Columbia, SC 29206 allegra!usceast!ted@seismo (ARPA, maybe) ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson) Subject: Re: Banned episodes + SF on controlling Time Date: 4 Jul 85 03:14:37 GMT > Along the same lines, does anybody know any good SF about > CONTROLLING time (everybody elses), as opposed to time travel > (controlling your local time)? There is a story lurking somewhere in the back of my mind which is about *both* and the cross-effects between them. People are travelling among coexisting probable universes, and for some reason the separateness between these realities is breaking down. The protagonist is the last of the Plantagenets if that helps. My memory may be inaccurate in recalling the title as "Assignment in ..." (I can't quite dredge up that last word). Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp ------------------------------ From: inmet!apt@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Re: SF on controlling Time Date: 2 Jul 85 14:11:00 GMT I read a short story in a High School french class about rationing time during a war (maybe WWII?). Anyway, people received ration tickets, the number depending upon how much time they needed to perform their jobs for the rest of society. However, rich people would buy ration tickets from poorer people. They then discovered that there is an "infinite" amount of time between two days (at midnight). The people who sold their tickets would just disappear until the next month. Meanwhile, the rich people are living right through 'til June 56th, for instance. It's a very good, light-hearted story. Alan Taylor ...harpo!inmet!apt ...hplabs!sri-unix!cca!ima!inmet!apt ...yale-comix!ima!inmet!apt ------------------------------ From: hou2a!pjk@topaz.arpa (P.KEMP) Subject: Time Travel TV Special Date: 8 Jul 85 13:43:06 GMT WNEW (Channel 5) in New York City will be airing "Time Travel: Fact, Fiction and Fantasy" on Thursday, July 11 at 9 PM EDT. The one hour special, hosted by Michael J. Fox (who stars in the movie "Back to the Future"), "focuses on various ideas about the nature of time and includes discussions of these ideas as proposed by H. G. Wells, Albert Einstein and present day experts such as Dr. Carl Sagan and Dr. Edwin Krupp." The program also looks at time travel in literature, motion pictures and television. Unfortunately, I don't think The Doctor will be mentioned, due to the emphasis on Hollywood productions. The special may be aired by other Metromedia or independent stations this week - check your local TV listings. Paul Kemp ihnp4!hou2a!pjk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 12:45 PDT From: "Franz Mark"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: WESTERCON 38 and The Pournelle/ARPANET Split We attended the WESTERCON 38 SF convention held in Sacramento, CA, over the July 4th weekend. At WESTERCON we talked with Jerry Pournelle about why he never contributed to the SF-LOVERS bb since he had an account at MIT-MC. He said his account at MIT-MC was terminated by some "graduate student" in charge of accounting, who felt he did not have a need for an account. He knows who this "graduate student" is, and he refuses to grovel so that his account is reinstated. However, he asked us to broadcast this little story - presumably so that MIT-MC will come to him. BTW - if you ever get a chance to meet Jerry Pournelle, you will not be dissappointed. Sequel to FOOTFALL:-) HARPANET FOR PRESIDENT, HUSENET FOR VICE-PRESIDENT. Also planned is a sequel (and a prequel) to THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE. WESTERCON 38 was run very well. In addition to Jerry, we spent several hours talking with Greg Bear, Norman Spinrad, Robert Adams, James P. Hogan, Larry Niven, John Brunner, and David Brin. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jul 85 0932-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #255 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 255 Today's Topics: Books - Schmidt & Saberhagen & Footfall (2 msgs) & Some Book Reviews, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Fixing SF & Spoilers & SF Conventions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 5 Jul 85 12:55:48 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve I believe the story about the aliens fleeing the galaxy with their planets and all (stopping along the way to gather up the Earth), is called "The Sins of the Fathers" by Stanley Schmidt. I remember it being serialized in Analog and I remember that gorgeous cover by Kelly Freas, but I am not certain about the title/author (I'm in Pittsburgh now and all my books are in NJ). Steve Z ------------------------------ From: mercury@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Larry E. Baker) Subject: Re: Berserker and Terminator Date: 6 Jul 85 02:07:37 GMT > A race of mechanical killing machines bent on conquering all > life. They were created long ago as warriors for a now extinct > race fighting a long forgotten war. They fight all life forms and > continually build more and more replacements. They have been known > to spare the lifes of humans who are useful to them. > > Berserkers or Cylons? > > Perhaps Saberhagen should demand credit (or blame) for Battlestar > Ponderosa. I don't think I agree. In the Berserker stories, the Berserkers were *really* massive machines, some as large as a small moon, intent on literally cleansing the planets of *all* life, down to the microbes. Consider "A Teardrop Falls." Indeed, they were machine intelligence, but of a vastly different sort than the Cylons. As memory serves, the Cylons (in the movies, not the books) were *man-shaped* machine intelligences, more robot than intelligence, who considered themselves more as a race than a collection of hardware. I don't recall exactly, but I think that the Cylons were intent mainly on eliminating Humanity; they weren't interested in *all* life forms. I find "The Doomsday Machine" (of STAR TREK fame) much more similar to the Berserker series than the Battlestar Ponderosa fiasco, and I suspect that the writer who wrote that story got the idea from Saberhagen, although the idea is sufficently different to preclude any legal action. Larry Baker {seismo!ut-sally|decvax!allegra|tektronix!ihnp4}!ut-ngp!mercury.UUCP mercury@ut-ngp.ARPA ut-ngp!mercury@ut-sally.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 5 Jul 85 12:55:48 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Not having my copy of Footfall with me (I am at work, it is at home in my apt.), I can't come up with all the characters names for the Dreamers Fithp but I shall try to remember how I thought they mapped into real life: Wade Curtis -> Jerry Pournelle The Ansons -> The Heinleins (did anyone miss this one?) Writer with loud vest (I've forgotten the character's name) -> Dr. Robert Forward Writer who was away at Con and travels Colorado -> I'm note sure, but this seems to be Niven female writer -> ????? That was the best I could come up with, I based my guesses mostly on widely known quirks of the writers. Steve Z ------------------------------ From: genie!sonja@topaz.arpa (Sonja Bock) Subject: Footfall-Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle (New Fiction) Date: 5 Jul 85 19:57:32 GMT FOOTFALL Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle Ballantine Books, New York, 1985 Larry and Jerry have done it again!! "WHAT!?", I hear you cry. Another near classic homo sapiens meets aliens with tragic flaw like "The Mote In God's Eye"? Or another end-of-civilization epic like "Lucifer's Hammer"? Yes, and Yes. In fact, "Footfall" provides us with both, as earthlings encounter their first alien species AND heavenly bodies fall from the skies into the ocean. It is not difficult to imagine the dynamic duo in the writing room gathering together left-over brain-storms from the previous two books, shuffling them together, padding out the holes and producing this hybrid. Characterization: Many readers complain that science fiction writers ignore characterization in their efforts. This is certainly true in this case. The human characters in this book have one thing in common. They don't have any, no personalities or definable motivations. In fact, these people are not so much characters as roles from a tv mini-series: the dissatisfied military wife; the ambitious, philandering reporter; the dashing but impotent astronaut; the boozy biker turned hero; the soggy-brained sci-fi writer; the space-happy congressman; the wishy-washy President; the wily Kosmonaut; the trendy survivalists. Each and every one bustles through the overall plot like a wind-up toy. As for the aliens, it is understandable, perhaps, that the reader have difficulty comprehending the inner workings of an alien psyche, but in this case, so little is revealed about the aliens and their origin that the Invaders are merely antagonists in the most literal (and literary) sense of the word. One supposes that they are given the form and characteristics of a slightly familiar earth species in order for the reader to catch on without undo description. The trickiest aspect of these Invaders is their names. Unless you are a Pole with a lisp, you will spend a good deal of time flipping back and forth through the pages trying to keep track of who's who (with one exception). Not only do they all look alike, they all sound like a sneeze through wired jaws. Well, how about ideas? Footfall trots out a few, some standard sci-fi shticks, some perhaps original. 1) Whoever controls space controls activity on the planet. How timely. 2) The intrepid Americans take a stand when nobody else will. 3) The military will save the day while the civilians dither. 4) Extraterrestrial species have been aided in their evolution by a previous (usually now extinct) race (see Heechee). Human beings, of course, are the cosmic bootstrappers. 5) The obvious talents of science-fiction writers are finally recognized, as civilization turns to their superior insights to psych out the aliens. In summary, there is very little (if anything) new or innovative in Footfall. It is certainly not on a par with "Mote" or "Lucifer's Hammer", or just about any of the other Niven-Pournelle offerings. And unless you are particularly taken by the dust-cover, it might be just as well to wait and see what they come up with next, together or individually. Some Other New Books This Summer: Frederik Pohl Black Star Rising Ballantine Books 1985 Robert Silverberg Tom O'Bedlam Donald I. Fine, Inc. 1985 Roger Zelazny Trumps of Doom (Another Amber Series Book) Arbor House 1985 Stephen King Skeleton Crew (Anthology) G.P. Putnam and Sons 1985 ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa Subject: New Reads Date: 30 Jun 85 23:40:45 GMT Not to interrupt the raging discussions of Space 1999 and the Covenant books (*) but I thought I'd comment briefly on two books I've recently read, _Null A Three_, A.E. Van Vogt and _Between the Strokes of Night_ by Charles Sheffield. _Null A Three_ is the long-awaited threquel to _Players of Null A_ and _World of Null A_. The introduction briefly discusses the history of the series and recaps the action in the first two books (necessary for many readers, since it has been a 20 year gap between the 2nd and 3rd books). Overall, I wasn't too pleased with this book. It seems quite perfunctory and mechanical. I was much impressed with the earlier Null A books, though that may have been my fascination with the idea of General Semantics, which seemed much more revolutionary to me as a high school student than it does now as a worldly, jaded grad studetn. At some point this third book becomes a sort of space opera (so much so that you wonder if EE is back). Worse, it doesn't draw any particular conclusions, or milk the possibilities inherent in General Semantics or Gilbert's extra brain. Instead it is mostly an action book, with confrontations between the main characters from the other books and TWO new alien species, neither of which is particularly well drawn or studied. There are also quite a few new characters with deus ex style powers to confuse things further. All in all, a fairly mechanical sequel. Buy it and read it if you're a Null A fan, but don't expect anything exciting. _Between the Strokes of the Night_, on the other hand, is an interesting hard-science style book. I haven't read any of Sheffield's other books (_The Selkie_ and _Sight of Proteus_ are mentioned on the cover), but the back cover blurb from Analog says "...(delivers) a steady stream of the mind stretching ideas Sheffield is noted for." I can't speak for his work in general, but this book at least presents some interesting ideas (not all new) worked in interesting ways. A caveat at this point: I'm only about half-way through, so I may end up disappointed if the ending sucks. Sheffield's writing style is somewhat reminiscent of Niven at his better moments (i.e., 10 years ago). His characters are somewhat better drawn, but it is mainly the force of ideas and inventions that drive the story. Briefly, BTSOTN is about the development of Mankind over the space of some 20,000 years (anyone else like these eternity spanning plots?), mainly through his development of new technology and his adaptation to new environments. There is less light given to psychological changes in the race (the humans of 20000+ seem no different from the humans of 2000, though there are segments of the population that are vastly changed [I'm just getting to that part]). All in all, a good, absorbing read. I stayed out too long in the sun because of this book, which is, I think, a fairly high recommendation. -- Scott Turner (*) Which isn't to say that we don't need a good raging discussion of Covenant going. What would SF-Lovers be if we didn't have one of the following going: (a) Covenant discussion. ("He's depressing", "He isn't", "He's depressing", "He isn't"...) (b) Star Wars discussion. ("The other hope is Leia", "No, it was Hans", "No, Leia", "No, Hans"...) (c) Star Trek discussion ("The said kilometers", "No, they said krullmetters", "I have the video tape", "So do I") (d) Space 1999 discussion ("She could shape-change", "She couldn't") (e) LOTR ("Gandalf was the other hope", "No, he could shape change.") (f) Argument with our token author, S. Brust ("You meant for Jaweh to appear evil", "I did not", "You did", "Hey, _I_ wrote the book", "So what? You also like Zelazny.") ------------------------------ Date: Mon 8 Jul 85 09:58:18-PDT From: Jack Subject: Star Trek Episode: "The Changeling" Question A friend's doing a PhD disertation on SF, and is interested in studying the Star Trek TV episode "The Changeling", in great detail. (For those who don't remember, "The Changeling" had the NOMAD probe, and was the basis for the first Star Trek Movie.) So, does anybody know where my friend might find: a) The script for the original episode, and/or b) The author, a guy named "John Meredyth Lucas"? (Reply directly to me, if possible. Thanks!) ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (Jeff Hanes ) Subject: Re: a gauntlet accepted: fixes to 1999, Galactica Date: 1 Jul 85 17:51:08 GMT > SECTION 3: CattleCar Badactica (Uh sorry) > > c: Make the cylons aliens, for gosh sakes. I recall reading the tie-in to the original show (I have forgotten the author). In it, the cylons *were* aliens, though a rather peculiar sort. > SECTION 2: My most despised scene in STAR WARS III > > You know the one I'm talking about: Vader Wimps Out. They should > have never taken off his mask ... Ah yes, with this event all of my childhood hopes and aspirations were dashed to the ground. Darth was my hero, my role model. I was one of the millions of high school students (I have since outgrown that affliction) who watched enthralled as this impressive figure ruthlessly eliminated his foes ... until that skinny, upstart farm-boy shot him out of the air (vacuum?). Later, of course, I realized that the Darth we saw in "Star Wars" was not the true Darth Vader. In "Star Wars" he occasionally shows emotion; he actually seems to *care* about what those puny humans (Darth is above humanity, of course) are doing around him. In "Empire" we see the true Darth; cold, implacable, secure in the knowledge that his schemes will succeed, using those puny humans as tools to further said schemes. Of course, his plans *do* succeed (except for losing that annoying farm-boy), and all is well with the galaxy. Then came "Return of the Jedi." More of the real Darth (how nicely he manipulated that puppet emperor). Then the dastardly farm-boy shows up. Darth not only loses the duel (everyone has an occasional off-day), but he loses his ideals, and thus, his integrity ... I went home thoroughly dejected. How *could* Lucas have done this to the hero of these films? It wasn't supposed to be a tragedy. I guess we all need an occasional story of lost hope and demolished dreams. How *should* "Return of the Jedi" have ended? Well- that insipid farm-boy should have given in to Darth's superior abilities. the rebels should have been decimated (in the original, Latin sense), and forced to begin anew (thus paving the way for a third movie trilogy -- and further triumphs for Darth Vader). most important -- the ewoks should have been thoroughly eradicated ... just on general principles. PS- sorry about the delay in this response; i've been on vacation. USnail: 508 Wheel Rd. Bel Air, MD 21014 UUCP: {seismo,decvax,unc}!brl-bmd!jeffh ARPA: ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Sat, 6 Jul 85 22:38:02 PDT Subject: Re: The concept of spoilers Ken Moreau writes: >Could someone who doesn't read spoilers respond with why you feel >the way you do? When an author writes a book, he writes it so that the reader may enjoy and savor the elements of the plot that have been created. Part of the enjoyment of the work is experiencing the events with the characters. I don't care for predictable books, and won't finish one on the first attack. For me, anyway, a book whose entire course is obvious from the start is so badly flawed that no other factor will redeem it. Roy Turner cited O. Henry--a good example. Another is the Twilight Zone. These, and others, live and die mostly on the element of surprise. I do, on the other hand, reread books. Those that delivered strong characters, well-developed plots, believable dialog and story lines. Some very good ones get reread at once, others draw my interest months or years later. Knowing the plot does not diminish my enjoyment because I am reading them for different reasons. But I would not want to give up the special thrills of that first read. Bruce N. Wheelock arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 1985 19:45:28 PDT Subject: SF convention From: Stuart Cracraft Does anyone have that list of upcoming SF conventions on-line somewhere? Stuart ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jul 85 1005-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #256 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 256 Today's Topics: Books - SF Poll (2 msgs), Films - Day of the Dead & Cocoon & She Demons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Jul 85 16:15:10 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: A neglected short story request I've kept waiting for someone else to supply some answers to a couple of requests (now over a month old) from some obviously novice SF lovers. But it seems that everyone has his/her own hobbyhorse, whether it is the continued furnishing of something meritorious (e.g., consistently appearing reviews by apparently responsible individuals), or intellectual masturbation, accompanied by admonitions that others should 'go and do likewise'. I feel that the best means of encouraging excellence in this (or any) field is the vigorous support of what one feels is worthwhile. Why? Because publicity generates support. Publicizing what you hate frequently encourages others to 'check it out'-- especially if you have managed by either deliberate or unintentional boorishness to profoundly incense your audience. > From: Glen Daniels > Subject: Best of shorts poll >In your opinion, what are the BEST SF shorts? I would really like >to have a consensus of votes from the SF-Lovers people, to see >which ones I should watch for that I haven't seen yet, if for no >other reason... Mine is a "lifetime" list, the product of reading SF for more than 20 years. ... The list is alphabetical by author. It includes everything from very hard SF to fantasy. An attempt at classification appears following each. 1. Poul Anderson, "Kyrie" (hard SF) 2. David Brin, "The Loom of Thessaly" (hard) 3. Mildred Downey Broxton, "Singularity" (semi-hard) 4. Harlan Ellison, "A Boy and His Dog" ("hard") ** 5. Robert A. Heinlein, "The Long Watch" (hard; *very* old) 6. C. M. Kornbluth, "The Little Black Bag" ("hard") 7. Barry Longyear, "The Portrait of Baron Negay" (semi-hard) 8. Jerry Pournelle, "He Fell Into a Dark Hole" (hard) 9. Tom Reamy, "San Diego Lightfoot Sue" (fantasy) ** 10. Charles Sheffield, "Killing Vector" (hard) 11. Cordwainer Smith, "A Planet Named Shayol" (Smith is quite unclassifiable.) 12. Norman Spinrad, "The Big Flash" ("hard") ** 13. Ted Sturgeon, "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?" (psychological) ** 14. James Tiptree, Jr., "Houston, Houston, Do You Read" (hard) ** 15. Roger Zelazny, "A Rose for Ecclesiastes" (fantasy) CAUTION Some of these are "tuff enuf" (to use a long-outmoded phrase) to freak you if they happen to hit your nerve (prejudices) just right. Those stories with the asterisks are particularly offensive to the thin-skinned. The list is as eclectic as my tastes. I.e., unless you're allergic to having your thinking processes stimulated, don't assume that, if you don't like one of the stories from this list that you won't like any. With no intended putdown to the living, (long may they continue to live and write), some of the best (my opinion) writers from this list are dead. Kornbluth, Reamy, Smith, Sturgeon: each of them was a great loss to their fans. Reamy is particularly tragic. I took the news (seen in SF Lovers Digest) of Sturgeon's death as a personal loss. He seemed to spend his time looking for windows of the mind that had been painted shut, and wrested them open with great jerks that often felt like pulling a tooth--but they were always followed by glorious restorative zephyrs. This list includes some "young" writers who have only hit their stride: Brin, Longyear, Sheffield. Others have publications credits as long as your arm, and are still busily writing. I shall submit information for the other neglected request in another (hopefully shorter) message. Paula S. Sanch Tyger Sanch%WSU-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@Rutgers.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 8 Jul 1985 08:48:19-PDT From: kevin%logic.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Kevin LaRue -- You can hack From: anything you want with TECO and DDT) Subject: Re: Overlaps in Rawlins' List Also note that 6 The City and the Starts Clarke is a re-write of 2 Against the Fall of Night Clarke Kevin ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan D.) Subject: Day of the Dead review Date: 8 Jul 85 02:20:11 GMT DAY OF THE DEAD Review by Jonathan D. Trudel I recently had the displeasure of watching this long-awaited sequel to two cult favorites-Night of the Living Dead, and Dawn of the Dead. This movie starts off at a similar point in time as DotD, but does not have the same characters as DotD did. {Begin Teaser-Spoiler follows later} For those of you not familiar with the "___Dead" series, imagine if you will today's world turned upside down. For some unknown reason, all the people that die become zombies that have a hankering for human flesh. These movies have the lead protagonists trying to keep themselves alive by whatever means possible, whether it be by barricading themselves inside a shopping mall, or an old missile silo, as in the case of Day of the Dead. Anyhow, in Day of the Dead, the zombies now populate the world(?), and humans are an endangered species. The US government set up a research facility that was supposed to find a way to stop the menace, but things don't go as planned... {Begin Spoiler} Well, let me tell you that this reviewer did not expect to see any great work of cinematic art when this reviewer went to this film. Actually, he expected to see Grade B all the way, but it never got that good. The plot line was simple enough, with the researchers supposedly working on ways to stop the zombies from killing the rest of humanity. There are only about 12 people in the complex at the time of the film, so the old adage 'too little, too late' still holds. The researchers are too under equipped, and under staffed to produce any sort of results. They have lost contact with the government, and are trying to find a solution. There are two scientists working in different ways: one ('Dr. Frankenstein', so dubbed for his experiments, whose name is the only one that comes to mind) is trying to condition the zombies to stop eating people by re-teaching them the 'culture' they left behind when they died, where the other (the only female survivor, BTW) is supposed to be working on a way to reverse the zombitizing process. All is good and well (as good and well as can be, given the situation), until the leader of the military detachment dies (which happens at the beginning of the film). So, his second-in-command takes over, and demands to see some results from the scientists, or else there will be hell to pay (so to speak). Eventually, tempers flare due to an unfortunate accident, and the zombies enter the complex and start their 'attack'. The reviewer won't reveal the final outcome, but if you see the film, you can probably guess what happens. Ah yes, one other thing about these "___Dead" films: Gore {with a capital 'g' nonetheless :-)}. These films have a lot of it, and they don't spare you from any of it. You see it all, from amputations to cannibalism of live subjects. Pretty gruesome stuff, but those who go to these movies generally expect it. More on this later. So, those "___Dead" fans must now be asking themselves "So, how does it stack up against the previous films?" Well, in all honesty, this reviewer preferred Dawn of the Dead. in Day of the Dead, the reviewer wanted more. This reviewer kept asking itself why they didn't show much of the actual research (except for some semi-humorous tirades with 'Bub', the intelligent zombie). This film had a dark cloud hanging over it, one that said humanity will not go out with a bang, but with a whimper, something that was apparent in Dawn of the Dead, but not as emphasized. Dawn of the Dead toyed with us, hitting a soft spot/curious vein in all of us by showing what life could be like if a handful of people had free reign over a whole shopping mall. Day of the Dead, however, did not strike any familiar chords in this reviewer's heart (yes, it has one). "But," you say, "this is not why I would go to see Day of the Dead. I go to see action, blood and guts." Well, all this reviewer can say is that the special effects are not up to the par they were in Dawn of the Dead. There are a few 'maulings' that are very fake {the victims' heads are poorly positioned w/r/to from their 'bodies', the 'skin' looked unreal, spleens don't really go splurt like that :-), etc.}. What was more bothersome than the special effects was the crowd. The average age was under 20, and most of them were applauding the violence, and were even screaming for more. It was all rather senseless, but this reviewer guesses that that's why they went to see it. This movie was in the making for a few years, and it should have been better as a result. On an overall scale of 1 to 10 (10 being highest), Day of the Dead rates a 3. On the trudel* scale of go-see-it-for-yourself-anyway-no-matter-what- the-reviewer-says, it rates a 5. * Denotes a patent pending (to protect to innocent from prosecution) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 09:08 EDT From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #245 In Cocoon, did anyone notice several passages of the background music by James Horner as that from Star Trek II, which was also done by Horner? I mean it was exact, not a variation, like he borrowed the master tape from Star Trek II and spliced it in. I thought Cocoon was excellent. I was warned by severl persons that Lifeforce is a bomb. Thanx to Peter Reiher for the excellent review on both! Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 11:32 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: A Candidate for Culthood She Demons (1958) Written and Directed by Richard E. Cunha, co-script H.E. Barrie Starring Irish McCalla, Tod Griffin, Victor Sen Young, Rudolph Anders and featuring the Diana Nellis Dancers. ****** Massive Spoiler, Were There Ought To Spoil ****** Hurricane Emily hits Surf City [trust me] and blows a boat carrying Hero Griffin, Heroine McCalla, Sidekick Sen Young, and an Expendable Fourth Party to an uncharted island. They discover that the transmit half of their radio is gone, but manage to overhear transmissions from Navy planes who intend to bomb the island the next day. Looking around, they discover footprints on the beach. ("Thank goodness they're human." "I'm not so sure...there are peculiar marks on the end of the toes...they could be claws.") Well, now there is nothing for it but to walk in circles among the potted palms. They come back to camp to find the Expendable Fourth Party speared and a strange corpse on the beach. ("...a woman's body..with the face of a demon. A She Demon!"). Back to the potted palms, where they encounter toothsome jungle maidens engaged in a sensual (well, for 1958, anyway) ritual. What should come out of the foliage but a bunch of thugs in SS dress uniforms, who round up the maidens. Naturally Hero, Heroine, and Sidekick follow, and discover ladies in cages. Cut to a laboratory, where Mad Nazi Scientist Anders, equipped with hypodermic and Peter Lorre accent, is performing a face transfusion [trust me] from one of the toothsome jungle maidens ("Hmmm...a healthy specimen...") to his horribly scarred wife ("Zoon you shall be beautiful again, my dear...") Cut back to Hero, Heroine and Sidekick, who find the door to the now empty lab. Naturally, they go inside and Hero and Heroine declare undying love. Their tryst is interrupted by Ugly Henchman of Mad Nazi Scientist, who engages Hero ("OK Big Boy -- you looked pretty good out there with those helpless women...let's see how you do with me.") in hand-to-hand combat. Ugly Henchman gets his, but there are more where he came from, and everybody finds themselves in front of the Mad Scientist for the obiligatory lecture ("Vat ve are doing is electronically extracting ze heat from ze center of ze earth and converting it to useful power." "What you are saying is...you have accomplished perpetual motion." "You are quite correct.") We then hear the story behind the face transplants ("She vas my laboratory assistant...vun day, a terrible accident happened. I vowed to shpend ze rest of my life to make her beautiful...") and the theory ("...ve all have in us a chemical quality composed of genes zat gives us our personal appearance...I haff devised a very complicated method by vich I can perfectly exchange zis secretion between two living beings...") which of course horrifies our Heroine ("You're mad! Completely Insane!" "No, my dear. You are mistaken. It is only unimaginative who cannot believe that man is capable of improving on nature.") Mad Scientist then has Heroine dressed in his wife's clothes and forced to endure a champagne supper, where he goes into his Deeper Motivations ("You see, I am very fond of my vife...but I am lonely") Heroine is having none of this, and feels his rage ("Zen I haff only vun alternative. To utilize your beauty to further ze experiments on my wife.") We then get the Mad Flight Of The Terrified Heroine, which is tough in a sheath dress and spike heels. She meets up with the wife, who had overheard the above pass being made and rejected ("You see, the last time I wore that dress, it was in that very same room...just before the accident. Many years ago. We were younger, and much in love..."). Wife sympathizes with Heroine and furnishes both the key to Hero and Sidekick's cell and the location of a handy rowboat. Heroine changes back into her running clothes and frees Hero and Sidekick. But wait! Who should be on the other side of the penultimate potted palm but the Mad Scientist and his trusty Luger ("You are trembling. You must be cold. No vonder. It is so late...I just remembered -- I have some important work tomorrow in ze laboratory.") And cut to the laboratory, where Heroine is appropriately bound and Hero and Sidekick are appropriately caged ("Please, I beg of you, do what you want with us...but in Heaven's name, release the girl!"). Heroine is given one more chance to trade her honor for her face (she chooses honor, spunky lass that she is). The hypodermic moves slowly toward her quivering neck when...the Navy arrives ("Do you hear that? Sounds like planes!"). The bombs fall, alarming Mad Scientist ("Ze volcano vill erupt!") and freeing Hero and and Sidekick, who unstrap Heroine. Mad Scientist dies in a puddle of hot mud, terribly scarred wife walks into the flames ("Would you go...if you looked like this?"), there is one last chase, one last embrace, and it's in the rowboat to freedom. And there you have it, a film that stands for all that is rich and true in speculative fiction. Foreshadowing later treatments of renewable energy, genetic engineering, female bonding in the face of male exploitation and Freudian themes too numerous to mention, it forms a natural thesis topic for aspiring candidates for a Ph.D. in Pulp Sensibility from the bicoastal institute of your choice. A Golden Turkey so obscure that it is not mentioned in Phil Hardy's ultracomprehensive SF film encyclopedia. Definitely not to be watched while sober. It ran on the SPN cable network the other night, and an enterprising Con organizer should be able to find out from them what library it is in. It would offer a welcome change from the nth rerun of "Plan 9". Try it, Camp Followers. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Jul 85 1054-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #257 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 257 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Chalker & Donaldson & Heinlein (2 msgs) & MacDonald & Schmitz & Time Control Stories (3 msgs), Films - Back to the Future, Television - Star Trek & Dr Who, Miscellaneous - The Passing of James Doohan? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Jul 85 09:45:18 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Douglas Adams Across the Atlantic From: Peter Alfke >> I can't say I've noticed any discrepancies between English and >> American versions of SLATFATF, but in _Life, the Universe, and >> Everything_, when Arthur Dent crossed the Atlantic he changed >> from a "Complete A**hole" to a "Complete Kneebiter." At least as >> far as Wowbagger was concerned. >> Will Duquette > >Another change between the British and American versions of _Life, >Universe, and Everything_ was the title of the award won by the >person who possessed the silver bail. The British version had the >award going to the most gratuitous use of a famous four letter word >beginning with F, denoting sexual relations, while in the American >version, the award was for the most gratuitous use of the world >"Belgium". They also had to add a few extra sentences explaining >this. Funny, the "expurgated" version in both cases seems funnier to me. (It's not often you'll find me saying that!) But why did they feel they had to clean up the American version? --Peter Alfke alfke.pasa@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Jul 85 13:56:04-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: Jack Chalker (**Little-bit-of-a-Spoiler Warning**) >> In many of his stories [...] a previously strong, likable female >>character is transformed into some weird sort of mutant >>sex-creature for no adequately explored reason. > >As far as I can tell, Chalker uses the *same* two ideas in every >book he writes: shape change and mind control/tyranny. He is >reasonably inventive in coming up with variations on these, but as >far as I am concerned, enough is enough. I think that you're both missing the essential device (and repetition) of Chalker's stories. Yes, he always has shape changing (and more to the point, *sex* changing); yes, a strong female character is generally transformed into a sexual slave (in Web_of_the_Chozen ?...I can't remember). The main device which links nearly all of his novels, though, is that every book has what could be called "magic", and each one has it "explainable" by some device or other (and in no case does he resort to a "sufficiently advanced technology"). These ways include: The warden organisms in the "Four Lords of the Diamond"; the Well World in the "Well of Souls" series; Flux in the "Soul Rider" books; the probablity engineering in And_the_Devil_ Will_Drag_ You_Under; the Computer in Web_of_the_Chozen; and, of course (my favorite) the Rule Books in the "Dancing Gods" series. The only book of his that I've read that doesn't really use this as a central theme is Downtiming_ the_Nightside, which still had a computer controlling the effects of time travel. This bothered me at first, but lately I've begun to enjoy seeing the new ways that he can rationalize magic. And even though he does use so many recurrent themes, he manages to work them in differently enough in each new book/series that he is consistently fun to read. Evan Kirshenbaum ARPA: evan@CSLI.ARPA UUCP: ...ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: The Black Company Trilogy Date: 8 Jul 85 08:28:34 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: > On the other hand, the love of suffering displayed by Donaldson's >Ravers, and the constant self-disgust of Covenant and Linden Avery >are simply loathesome, without the excuse of self-preservation. Here I go again.... Covenants behaviour *WAS* self-preservation. Come on, the guy was a leper. He had to face the fact that for the rest of his life he would never, *NEVER* be able to feel things. I don't know if you realize it, but the sense of touch is about THE most prevalent one in our life. All the others (except maybe hearing) are selective and are used only when needed. Touch on the other hand is a sense that is constantly working 24 hours a day. You never really notice it until you lose it. But once you do, you realize just how much it was used by you. Covenant cannot touch. He cannot feel. He is impotent. And to survive, he has to isolate himself from everyone and to do that, he presents a loathsome front to everyone he meets (even those he tries to help). When he enters the land, his senses are fully returned to him, and he goes nuts. The only way he can save his sanity is to refuse to believe that he has actually been cured. Don't tell me that Covenant doesn't act by an instinct for self-preservation. That's complete bull. Chris Andersen ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 13:35:53 pdt Subject: Query on latest Heinlein? Has anyone yet read Heinlein's latest; "Cats - A Comedy of Manners"?? Supposed to be a sequel to or at least take place on the "luna" of "Moon Is a Harsh Mistress". I haven't been able to find it anywhere. Sigh. Bret Marquis bam@NOSC (ihnp4, sdcsvax)!bang!bam ------------------------------ From: vice!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Mueller) Subject: Request for book review(s) -- RAH Date: 4 Jul 85 02:47:30 GMT I haven't read anything by Robert Heinlein in several years, but I understand that, after a long illness, he has a couple of new books. The last of his books that I read was "Time Enough for Love." Pardon my ignorance, but ...... Does he have anything new? Do YOU recommend it? Have there been any reviews on the net? If so, do you have a copy? This is probably old material, so please reply by mail. Mike Mueller uucp: {decvax,harpo,ihnss,pur-ee,ucbvax,unc,zehntel} !teklabs!vice!mike ARPA: vice!mike.tek@Rand-Relay CSnet: vice!mike@tek US Mail: Mike Mueller, Tektronix, Inc. Box 500 MS 59-323, Beaverton OR 97077 Phone: (503)627-3187 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 85 17:42 PST From: Gary Palmer Subject: Another reason aliens might visit (or live on) Earth. I enjoyed seeing the "reasons" why an alien race might visit Earth and, for their own reasons, want to remove humans. Now I wonder if anyone else has ever read a delightful book called _Ballroom_of_the_ _Skies_ by John D. MacDonald. Yes he is the one who wrote the Travis McGee series. This book is hard to find but one of most enjoyably light yet thought provoking readings I have found in a long time. It is published by Fawcett Gold Medal Books and copyrighted 1952. The blurb on the back cover asks the questions: "Have you ever stopped to wonder why the world is eternally war-torn? Why men of good will, seeking only peace, are driven relentlessly to further disaster?" Well I won't spoil the story, but it does involve a very novel reason why aliens would come to Earth. I recommend this book to anyone who can find it. On the side, I also recommend his other book _Wine_of_ _the_Dreamers. ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** Ballroom of the Skies is about one man who notices some ranking government officials seem "wrong". On further investigation he finds them being replaced by some sort of robot. He is an investigator, so he persues this and finds that aliens are on earth walking around and just "being one of the guys". They have a belt with some amazing technology to help do things like mind probing/sheilding and teleportation. The hero, Branson, becomes known to these aliens and starts to work for them only after long hard attempts to destroy them. He does it voluntarily after learning that they aren't out to destroy the Earth, it's people, or it's resources (a refreshing change). The end of the book presents the final reason why the aliens are controlling the ruling class of Earth; they want to keep it primitive enough where it is always engaged in wars because wars train generals. The alien race is peaceful and hence their generals are useless and the galactic defense organization needs people who can wage and win wars... There is alot of fun stuff in the book like the androids and psionics and such. I really can't do it justice, but now you have an idea what it's about. Gary Palmer--Los Angeles Ca. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Jul 85 07:16:04 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: title request Did James Schmitz ever write a sequel to _The_Witches_of_Karres_? (Beyond the expansion of the original story to a novel, I mean.) marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Tue 2 Jul 85 13:38:53-EDT From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Re: Story request - SF on controlling time The short story name is "The Sliced-Crosswise, Only on Tuesday, World", but I don't recall the author or even the where I read it (it was a long time ago, back in high school or before). I believe the man was a Tuesday person in love with a Wednesday person and wants to change days. An interesting story with a twist to the ending, which I won't reveal. --Vince ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Time control stories Date: 4 Jul 85 00:46:03 GMT Well, what about the ``farmers'' in the future in FROM HERE TO ETERNITY? (Come to think of it, didn't they come back in the last few pages of CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE? :-) They pulled stunts like causing ``kettles'' to not be able to go beyond the 100,000th century, and the work at the end that caused the future to be changed (and, according to latest rumor, replaced aliens with even stranger humans (i.e. Second Foundationers))? Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady) Subject: Re: Re: SF on controlling Time Date: 5 Jul 85 05:18:37 GMT I'm surprised no one has mentioned _Bearing_an_Hourglass_, by Piers Anthony, the 2nd book of the Incarnations series. (or is Piers Anthony not to be mentioned in this newsgroup? :-) Steven ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 14:28 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: A four dollar movie?????? You obviously don't live in a metropolitan area that has learned to gouge people like they have here in the Bay. Heck, four bucks is matinee price! (Athough in fairness, some places go down to two bucks for matinees and there is even a local place that is two bucks ALWAYS. Nice to know that capitalism works somewhere, although the nicer theatres charge more and no way will you get Dolby sound and 70mm at the Vine for $2.) I would make an effort to bring back the days of 50 cent flicks, but we'd have to watch Ronnie again, and heck, he ain't even worth it now that he's on TV for free. I guess we'll just have to suffer and hope they keep making great flicks that deserve the money. Like, Back to the Future What a great disguise for a plug, huh? It's the best thing since screen editors and I feel that we who love it have a responsibilty to show the movie producers what we like by seeing it again and again and again. This movie can handle it. A lot of things can be seen coming, if you know where to look. Check it out! For the technos out there who try to figure out and/or poke holes in the time travel theories that we read, please check out Larry Niven's _The Theory and Practice of Time Travel_ in his book, _All the Myriad Ways_. He basically proves that it is impossible, at least in the long run. Time travel is a very unstable situation, as evidenced by nearly all stories using it. It is much more stable not to have a time machine, which is what I suspect is the "real" situation. Alas and alack... (There are a few things I would change...) Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Date: 10 Jul 85 03:09:07 GMT > Which ST articles were banned in Texas? Sorry...I've been away from the net for a few weeks...I assume this posting was to a side comment of mine about Star Trek episodes being banned in Texas. As I remember the article (I have no first hand experience of this) several episodes were banned in Texas and "the Bible belt" because of supposed inferences to Satanism. Episodes included were "catspaw" and (the name of the title escapes me) the episode in which Kirk, Spock, and a woman crewmember trade "bodies" with creatures in glowing, white balls. As I also stated once before, the Star Trek animateds were not banned due to bad ratings (the rating were quite high), but, rather, due to (as it was stated by the network) "script material that is unsuited for the younger viewing audience." The straw that broke the Enterprise's back was an episode called "The Magicks of Megas Tu," in which the Enterprise crew find out that not only was Lucifer not a myth, but that he wasn't such a bad guy after all. This did not sit too well with a lot of people. (There was also an animated episode called "BEM", where a "godlike being" was portrayed as being female. This didn't set too well with another group of people....) Anyway, I hope this clears up any references I made... Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: utai!strausx@topaz.arpa (Paul Albert Strauss) Subject: Re: How to fix bad SF Date: 8 Jul 85 19:53:25 GMT > There is one segment of a Dr Who episode that has been bothering > me for some time. Usually Dr Who has imaginitive (sp?) scripts > and well thought stories. The sf isn't hard core but when they > show something it usually is correct, or good enough that I would > allow them "poetic license". Example: the episode Enlightment, > dumb premise, a yacht race in space, but the explaination of the > wind being the solar wind and the gravity of the planets providing > the force to steer against the wind was quite good. What gets me > is Four to Doomsday, where the Doctor is stranded in space midway > between another space craft and his Tardis. He pulls a cricket > ball out of his pocket and throws it at the space ship, when he > catches it on the rebound he has the momentum to reach his Tardis. > He should have also gotten some momentum from throwing the ball!!! > If the writers had figured out the solar sailing business I would > have thought they would have figured this out too. > Mike Davis Sounds to me as if throwing the ball toward the space craft (and thus away from his Tardis) would have accelerated the Doctor TOWARD his Tardis, as would the act of catching the ball. Thus, (without having seen this episode), I don't perceive a flaw. Paul Strauss ------------------------------ From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker) Subject: The passing of James Doohan Date: 10 Jul 85 12:06:08 GMT I heard on the way in to work this morning that Jimmy Doohan, known and loved by us as Commander Montgomery Scott, Chief Engineering Officer of the U.S.S. Enterprise, passed away yesterday due to a sudden, massive heart attack. Rest In Peace Jimmy, we'll miss ye. Mike Stalnaker UUCP:{decvax!decuac,cbosgd,seismo}!dolqci!mike AT&T:202-376-6245 USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jul 85 1033-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #258 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 258 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Farmer & Lee & Zelazny & End of the World Stories (2 msgs) & Footfall, Films - Back to the Future, Miscellaneous - SF as Literature & Spoilers (2 msgs) & Advanced Races Visiting Earth (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: magic!b2@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Re: Review of _Bearing_an_Hourglass_ Date: 9 Jul 85 17:59:03 GMT Someone wondered if Piers Anthony was a taboo author in net.sf-lovers. Since he has been writing "light" fantasy recently instead of "hard" sf, I suppose some might say a review of his latest novel doesn't belong there. Phooey on them. A Short Review of "Bearing An Hourglass" by Piers Anthony I picked up BAH as soon as I saw it in the library. It is the 2nd in a series of ... hmm, 5 or 6. 5, I think. The main character of each novel is an Incarnation, a mortal who personifies one of the great forces of existence. They include Death (the subject of the first book in the series, "On a Pale Horse"), Time (this book's emphasis), Fate, Nature, and War. 2 immortal Incarnations also figure in the story, Good ( played by God, whom we never see or meet ), and Evil ( played by Satan/Lucifer/Beelzebub, whom we see quite a bit of ). The basic plot of each book seems to go as follows: a more or less ordinary mortal finds himself selected to become the next personification of the Incarnation that best fits the book's title. He (no women so far, Fate and Nature will come later) flounders about trying to control and use the powers of his office, getting help and cryptic advice from the other mortal Incarnations. He finds out Satan is trying to do something dastardly but is rather ineffectual and Satan turns on his charm and makes you the reader a bit tense. The new Incarnation, however, learns a lot about his powers and how they interact with the world (in which magic and science are equally well developed) and where he fits into it all, so he ends up confronting and battling the Devil, trying to foil his evil plans. Each book ends similarly, with the Devil either winning or losing ( No sir, no spoilers here! ). I enjoyed OPH very much. It had many interesting touches, allusions, and puns. Since the Incarnation in OPH was Death, Anthony presented the reader with quite a few interesting questions concerning mercy killing, babies going to Limbo, life extension at all cost, death and war, etc. I enjoyed BAH much less. For one thing, there wasn't the same sort of interesting moral questions to delve into. Anthony also spent a lot of time explaining how Time's equipment worked, and shifting the new Time around. I didn't find this very entertaining. There were some very interesting minor characters in OPH. I remember quite a bit about the details of the plot of OPH. Off hand, I can barely recall any minor characters in BAH that weren't also in OPH. I can't remember much about the plot , even though I read it much more recently. I guess the problem is that Death makes a much more interesting and believable main character than Time does. So, I was disappointed with BAH. But I am going to to read the next books. I think BAH failed for me because Time, and discussions about time arrows, living backwards, etc. just didn't hold my interest. The other Incarnations, however, might be presented better. Fate, Nature, and War all seem to have quite a bit of potential. One last note. At the end of each book, Anthony has an "Author's Note". He discusses his motivations and what he is currently doing and where he got some of his ideas. The Note after OPH was especially interesting, since he described his own brush with Death. One could clearly see the influence of his day-to-day life on his writing. In keeping with my statements above, I can't remember anything about the Note in BAH. b2 {backbone}ihnp4!bellcore!b2 ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: The Oz canon and PJF's "Barnstormer in OZ" Date: 9 Jul 85 03:14:52 GMT jam@dcl-cs.UUCP (John A. Mariani) writes: >What Farmer does is to look at a fictional place/situation as if it >was *real*! This implies an adult, rational view of fantastic >situations i.e. how *does* the strawman *exist*? I can appreciate >Baum's readers would be offended, as Hutch above ... but, I found >the book quite entertaining. I guess, as always, its up to you, >but if you want to take a different view of a well-known place, >this is worth a read. Rather than let this degenerate into a series of opinionated flames, I will admit that I have grown very tired of Farmer's more casual work, but I do want to point out that Farmer doesn't look at a place as if it were real. He writes about it as if it were what HE thinks of as real. The trouble is, real doesn't have to be "adult" in that sense. For another instance of Farmer tampering with the work of other authors, resulting in garbage, look at what he did to Tarzan of the Apes. Actually, I think he's done two such things, "Lord Tyger" and this pseudo-history thing whose name I forget that ties Doc Savage, Greystoke, and n-thousand other heroes together into the same family tree (unnecessary!). Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 85 23:34:09 pdt From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Tanith Lee "Don't Bite the Sun" and its sequel "Drinking Sapphire Wine" form the best science fiction love story I've ever read. Actually this is also the only science fiction love story I've read. Lee also has a gothic SF novel - "Lycanthia". It is a sequel to the farcical "Anna Medea" in her latest anthology, "The Gorgon". My reaction to "The Gorgon" was mixed. This collection has two of Lee's best short stories (Meow & Sirriamnis), but it also has many stories which I found rather slow and boring, and several with a bad pun for a title. Also, I had read Sirriamnis before, in "Unsilent Night". Of all Tanith Lee's books, my favorite is "To Kill the Dead", which happens to be a ghost story. One image that blows me away is the brash male hero/villain/thief at the door with the roto-rooter/well rope/spell and the withdrawn female protagonist behind the window shades hoping he will go away soon. Some of these books are very sexually emotive. Lee also plays games with my concept of "parent". -s ------------------------------ From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar) Subject: Re: Trumps of Doom - Roger Zelazny - Latest in the Amber Subject: Series Date: 8 Jul 85 14:13:44 GMT The author of this article states that "Jack of Shadows" is a prequel of sorts to the the Amber series and that JoS deals with Shadow, Amber style. I beg to differ. JoS takes place on an Earth with no rotation. One side is constantly dark, and full of magic, one side light, and full of science (our "normal" Earth.) Jack is one of the few Darksiders who travels to the light side, and the only one who's magic will work there. His magic is the ability to use *any* form of shadow to hide him, no matter how small. Additionally, anytime his name is spoken in shadow he will hear it, no matter how far away. He lives in and with shadows, thus Jack of shadows. No relation to Amberian Shadow at all. Reasonably nice review, but lacking flair, could get the same sense of the book from the dust cover. And please get your facts straight... David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber ARPA: davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk%amber@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 85 09:34:41 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: The End of Civilization as We Know It From: Holbrook.OsbuSouth@Xerox.ARPA To: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.Arpa Two more of my favorites in the "end of the work" catagory: 'Earth Abides' by George Stewart. This is a novel from (I believe) the 50's. The basic plotline involves a disease that does nasty things to most of the people in the US. This is one of the earlier novels I've read in the sub-genre; well worth reading. Another novel you might enjoy is a little farther out: 'A Canticle for Leibowitz' by Walter M Miller Jr. This 1959 novel is set in the future long after a nuclear war. It's a curious blend of religion and how civilization rebuilds itself. It follows a monastic order that dedicates itself to preserving information from the long dead civilization that occured before the war. One of my all-time favorite sf books. Paul ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1985 13:11:09-EDT (Tuesday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: end of the world A rather unusual end of the world story is "Breeds There A Man" by Asimov. I can't say much about it without giving away the plot, but it postulates a somewhat different reason for the fall of civilization(s). ------------------------------ From: denelcor!lmc@topaz.arpa (Lyle McElhaney) Subject: SF Writers in Footfall Date: 8 Jul 85 03:32:57 GMT The SF writers who make up the "threat team" in Niven & Pournelle's new book _Footfall_ are: Robert & Virginia Anson Sherry Atkinson Nat Reynolds Joe Ransom Wade and Jane Curtis Bob Burnham Carol North (added later) Most obviously, The first are Robert (Anson) and Virginia Heinlein. Nat Reynolds and Wade Curtis write together, and both live in Los Angeles (if that's not enough of a clue, check out Curtis' response to the aliens' conditional surrender: "Nuke them till they glow, and then shoot then in the dark"). The remainder are not clear to me. The only other real clues are that Atkinson is pacifistic (non-paranoid, as Anson puts it). Bob Burnham has white hair and wears a gaudy vest, Ransom has a thick black mustache. Carol North could be Andre Norton, except that she is depicted as rather young. Ah, well, its fun guessing. Lyle McElhaney ...denelcor!lmc ------------------------------ From: ihlpm!cher@topaz.arpa (cherepov) Subject: Re: Liking BACK TO THE FUTURE (while disliking GOONIES!) Date: 9 Jul 85 13:15:54 GMT I have a very hard time understanding how someone who disliked Goonies would be charmed by BTTF. But what do I know... Some of BTTF drawbacks: almost every SF idea in it was recycled in SF books 10000 times at least. Some of the more original ideas lack credibility (hitting 88 miles an hour at exactly proper point, at exactly right moment????!!!!!!!). Also, HOW WOULD PLUTONIUM GENERATE 1000000000000 watt? Did they have nuclear explosion every time? Anyway, disregarding those things I would say that the film provides same sort of entertainment as Goonies - at slightly lower quality. It is oriented for slightly older kids, with character development at definite Porky's level. I liked both flicks as solid summer stuff and would recommend them. For whatever it's worth... Mike Cherepov ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 85 08:19 EDT From: ------ Operator Subject: a comment on the sf as literature discussion Listening to you all arguing among yourselves over what is good literature, or how much more realistic the explosions in one movie are over the explosions in another, or which author is more godlike than another, or whether fantasy is as valid as hard science fiction, or any of the other subjects you bicker over had me wondering if any of you remember the wonder and the awe of realizing that the things you read about in your treehouses and under your covers by flashlight could actually be true and that one day you could have a part in making them be true. I wonder how many of you were as influenced in your lives by science fiction as I have been in mine. Podkayne of Mars told me that girls can have adventures too. Andre Norton's books said it was okay to be different, that my strength lay within me, in my differences. I, Robot fired my imagination so that I ended up in my present career because of the dream of development of robotics in my lifetime, like Susan. Silent Running made me aware of the importance of conservation. Le Guinn inspired me to study Zen and to realize that western thought need not be the world view. Dhalgren's bleak urbanity frightened me into an awareness of modern despair. Tolkien taught me about personal sacrifice and of the price of honor. Starship Troopers told me of the futility of war. All of the books I have read, no matter how good or bad, have given me something beyond what I had before I read them. That is all I ask from literature. When I was a child, science fiction in all its forms, with all its faults took me on wondrous journeys inside myself and outside of time and space. It does the same for me today, for all its faults and crass commercialism. Science fiction, fiction of any sort, is the dream inside the soul, reaching out to share a vision of life as it is, as it may be, as it could be. Jessie @ NCSC ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1985 10:49:14-EDT From: rachiele@NADC Subject: spoilers I really don't care if "spoiler" warnings are put on reviews. I make it a point never to read beyond the first line of any review, they always give too much information. I have big files of "dune" and "2010" mail which I will read after those movies come to cable (or I break down and buy a VCR!). Jim Rachiele (rachiele@nadc.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1985 09:09-PDT From: king@Kestrel.ARPA Subject: should there be spoiler warnings? >Someone else wrote "The big question when watching television is >not *WHETHER* the hero will get out of their crisis. We know that >they will. The big question is *HOW* the hero will get out of >their crisis." To me that is the enjoyable part of fiction, the >"how". If I am concerned about the "whether", I cannot enjoy it. > >Ken Moreau I knew I stopped watching, for example, the Man from UNCLE, because the title role always won. I wrote a letter to the network saying that I would like him to either lose or possibly even get killed about 15-20% of the time, that I would mind him being resurrected less than I minded the status quo. I never got a reply. , one of childhood's disappointments. -dick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 16:03:37 CST From: Doug Monk Subject: Re : advanced race wants and V Of course, it should be born in mind that the advanced lizards in V were sexual deviates. I mean, after all, they insisted on wearing their human disguises even in the privacy of their own bedrooms when no humans were around. Kind of like leather fetishism, I guess. :-) The lizards must have come to Earth to find more and better party novelties and sex slaves. The water issue was probably just an excuse they made up to tell the Emperor. ( "Gosh, Admiral, we _had_ to stop in Tahiti to pick up some coconuts. We were running out..." ) :-) Doug Monk ( bro@rice.arpa ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue 9 Jul 85 14:02:48-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #251 > material wealth in our own solar system. I doubt there is any > substance, object or source of energy that would be worth the time > and energy to make an interstellar voyage. It would almost always > be easier to find or build something ourselves, certainly easier How about stroon (immortality drugs), as in Cordwainer Smith's _Norstrilia_ and related works? Unless we could synthesize them here, of course. Immortality is worth a lot to some people. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jul 85 1049-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #259 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 259 Today's Topics: Books - Cook & Lee (2 msgs) & Zelazny & Time Control Stories (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Names in SF & Opinions & Rereading ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rochester!stuart@topaz.arpa (Stuart Friedberg) Subject: The Fire in His Hands and other Glen Cook books Date: 9 Jul 85 01:12:10 GMT Moshe Eliovson writes: > I have just finished Glen Cook's The Fire in His Hands and > the sequel, With Mercy Towards None. The setting for these > stories is post-Dynastic, in other words a great Empire was > shattered over a typically trivial squabble. The main culture is > that of the fallen people, which is sort of a mix between mexican > and arab nomads. There is a ruling class, the Royalists, who are > the remnenants of the royalty before "The Fall". These books are sort of pre-quels to Cook's Dread Empire trilogy, which may or may not be in print right now. The Dread Empire books are Shadow of All Night Rising October's Baby All Darkness Fled (I may be off on the titles; they're at home and I'm not) This trilogy hasn't gotten the kind of response I'd expect. They're books I make a point to re-read about once a year. If you can find them, I recommend you give them a try. One of the things I like about the Dread Empire books is that Cook does not feel obligated to explain all the important historical events in detail. There is an awful lot you have to figure out for yourself or just accept that the characters understand the references while you don't. Some of these things you gradually figure out from context. I don't think The Fire in His Hands and With Mercy Towards None are as good as the Dread Empire stuff, but they explain a LOT of the recent history and personal experiences that are not explained in D.E. TFiHH and WMTN are not BAD, but I'd recommend D.E. strongly and consider the more recently released books as average quality. They are excellent good background material for D.E. . Another thing I like about D.E. is that it covers a LOT of ground chronologically speaking. The significant first person action in the books takes place over a good 10 to 20 years, and there is "stage setting" of much more than that (30 years and references to cataclysmic events even earlier (perhaps 100 years?)) If you like the way Zelazny interleaved the "streams" of action/time in Lord of Light, you should get a kick out of D.E. If you didn't like it you may not like D.E. for the same reason. Even with a couple of "pre-quels" out, there's still a lot of related material Cook could crank out that would be quite interesting. Without spoiling anything, all five books are related to just ONE carefully orchestrated catastrophe. There are references to several such incidents of meddling in the past. The motivation for the meddling and the meddler are one of the things alluded to, but unexplained. Even the meddler is unfamiliar with perhaps the worst episode (Can you spell "Nawami Crusades"?) The allusions suggest to me a little the situation behind one of his other books: The Swordbearer. TFiHH and WMTN focus on the childhood and early adulthood of several less personally powerful characters. One of the characters D.E. focuses on, Varthlokkur, was personally responsible for destroying the fallen dynasty that forms the background for TFiHH and WMTN. The similar period and especially magical training in Varthlokkur's life would make an interesting piece of reading, since it's only touched on in D.E. . By the way, there was some recent discussion of Cook's Black Company books and somebody wondered if Cook was familiar with the (in?)famous White Company of our (real) history. I am pretty sure he is, because one of the groups in D.E. is a "White Company" equipped with longbow and other appropriate weapons. As far as I know, D.E., TFiHH and WMTN are not really related to Swordbearer or to the Black Company books except in tone and some (but not all) elements of style. Cook writes what I think are fairly realistic descriptions of combat, struggle and life in general. There are high points when everyone can relax and take it easy raising kids on the farm and low points when people are wheezing with pneumonia in a sleet storm with mud up to their knees and bugs in the biscuits. The good guys don't wear white hats and the sides change on the basis of expediency. Favorite characters get hurt and die; Scum get away. His magic is pretty interesting, too. Somewhat like Tolkien's writings, magic is used fairly sparsely but potent when applied. The use of magic implements is more common than in LotR, but it's not objectionable. There are a couple of "schools" of magical technique which are referred to. In general, developing a magical effect seems a lot like developing an appropriate algorithm or data structure. I.e., there are known limits on what can be done with existing techniques; it's not all engraved in ancient grimoires, although there are well-known, named techniques to apply; the more talented and experienced magicians come up with the more effective approaches. Stu Friedberg {seismo, allegra}!rochester!stuart stuart@rochester ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR) Subject: Re: Tanith Lee Date: 9 Jul 85 14:26:16 GMT > "Don't Bite the Sun" and its sequel "Drinking Sapphire Wine" form > the best science fiction love story I've ever read. Actually this > is also the only science fiction love story I've read. I have THE SILVER METAL LOVER by Lee, which I consider the best SF love story. ;-} However, I tried to order DON'T BITE THE SUN and DRINKING SAPPHIRE WINE a day or two ago, and my friendly local bookstore has never heard of it! Help! Is it out of print? > Lee also has a gothic SF novel - "Lycanthia". It is a sequel to > the farcical "Anna Medea" in her latest anthology, "The Gorgon". Are you sure? I read LYCANTHIA a while back, and I just bought THE GORGON. I don't remember any similarities between the novel and any of the short stories. Actually, a lot of her work is in the style of LYCANTHIA. As I think I've pointed out before, she is primarily a sword/sorcery writer. Try her first novel, BIRTHGRAVE. AMBAR {the known universe}!ihnp4!ihlpg!jeand ------------------------------ From: h-sc1!friedman@topaz.arpa (dawn friedman) Subject: Re: Tanith Lee Date: 9 Jul 85 22:25:25 GMT > From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin ) > "Don't Bite the Sun" and its sequel "Drinking Sapphire Wine" form > the best science fiction love story I've ever read. Actually this > is also the only science fiction love story I've read. > > Some of these books are very sexually emotive. Lee also plays > games with my concept of "parent". > -s She does have some rather strange ideas, including a rather heavy- handed insistence on male-female polarity. And have you noticed her brother-and-sister villains? Maybe not -- but see "Day by Night" and "The Silver Metal Lover". The latter is not a bad love story at all; and a friend once told me that the mother-daughter relationship in it should tell me something ( --)). More on sexuality in SF, or is that too dangerous for a relatively mild-mannered newsgroup? dsf ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 1985 08:13:08-EDT (Wednesday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Jack of Shadows vs Amber It's not so much that Shadowjack is like Corwin as all of Zelazny's heroes fit a certain pattern: that is, they all have some unusual ability that the reader doesn't know about, and only slowly learns of. In Amber, of course, he adds an additional twist in that Corwin doesn't know of his powers either. Anyway the use of shadow in JoS is not at all like Shadow in Amber. Amber's Shadow is really parallel worlds, whereas JoS deals with absence of light. Creatures of Light and Darkness is a much closer analogy, especially Thoth's power to "transport himself to anyplace he could imagine." ------------------------------ From: hpfclg!bayes@topaz.arpa (bayes) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 4 Jul 85 00:04:00 GMT Along the lines of controlling time, and "pluterday', there is of course R.A. Lafferty's classic, "Slow Tuesday Night", in which objective time is not controlled, but subjective time is. A whole life can be lived, with multiple careers completed, and fortunes won and lost within the 8 hours of the aforesaid Tuesday night. hpfcla!bayes ------------------------------ From: h-sc1!friedman@topaz.arpa (dawn friedman) Subject: Re: Time control stories Date: 9 Jul 85 22:37:25 GMT > From: ncoast!bsa (Brandon Allbery) > Well, what about the ``farmers'' in the future in FROM HERE TO > ETERNITY? (Come to think of it, didn't they come back in the last > few pages of CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE? :-) > > They pulled stunts like causing ``kettles'' to not be able to go > beyond the 100,000th century, and the work at the end that caused > the future to be changed (and, according to latest rumor, replaced > aliens with even stranger humans (i.e. Second Foundationers))? Yow! I waited and waited, but no one cleared this up; was it entirely a joke? Anyway, I was going to mention this book, one of the most control-oriented of all the time control stories: _The End of Eternity_, by Asimov, which discusses the moral and long-term (100,000 centuries) effects of editing reality. The hero is an Engineer for the people who have displaced themselves from the timestream to a 'place' called Eternity, from which they manipulate events for the utilitarian good. Realities are simply deleted if they work out badly, replaced by some alternative. The hero's job, which is actually implementing the grandfather-killing operations (usually more subtle changes than that are all that are necessary), is somewhat stigmatized because no one can quite deal with the fact that they are eliminating the works and dreams and thoughts of millions of people whenever they make one of these changes. ("A billion personalities changed -- just a Technician's yawn" goes one Eternity catchphrase.) Very interesting ideas, slightly waxen characters, some less than believable situations -- typical very good Asimov. dsf ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 85 13:04 EDT From: ------ Operator Subject: welsh-ish names When I was a little girl writing stories I used to make up names for my characters by banging on the typewriter like this --- wsdfgbhnjmkpoijuhgv --- and throwing out every other letter so I'd have a character named wdghjkojhv (pronounced, of course, wedge-koohdge-hahv). I would make up words like ouejw (oh-eej-wa, I think) for that ytebdg on mcnhhf-mvhsx. Sometimes I think that's what some authors do, too. (Bring to a boil) My point: Dialect is well and good when it adds to the story, but when you have to skip over the word even silently because it's unpronounceable, a line must be drawn. Authors shouldn't give into the silliness I described above or, even worse, the follow the growing number of authors basing their books on Celtic and non-Western mythos by inserting 'welsh-ish', or 'japanese-ish' or swahili-ish' sounding words as a hook. (Reduce to simmer) Jessie@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 08:36 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: opinions and assumptions >Henry Vogel (henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa) writes: >> One is forced to wonder how you can stand life? Last time I >> checked, most people have no idea what will happen next in their >> life or the lives of their friends. Admittedly, more people will >> have a tendency to get blown away (or have some other awful thing >> happen to them) in fiction than in real life, but awful things do >> happen in real life. I'm not flaming you for your opinion, but it >> does raise some interesting questions... Ken Moreau replies >That is one of the things about life that I cannot take: its >uncertainty. But it seems to me that you (and others) are coming >back to the same point, which is "Life has (uncertainty, bad guys >winning, good guys losing, everyone unhappy all the time, whatever >else you care to put here), and you somehow survive life, so why >don't you spend money on and actively enjoy the same things in >books?". Have you ever heard the term "escapism"? I read to enjoy >myself. Insisting that a lot of bad things be put into a book >*JUST BECAUSE SUCH THINGS HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE* eliminates one of >the main attractions of fiction, namely that it is NOT like life. Why do you assume that, just because I enjoy finding out what will happen next in a book (as opposed to knowing exactly what will happen), I know nothing about escapism and reading to enjoy myself? You said you hated not knowing what was going to happen next, were afraid that the characters you had developed an attatchment to were going to die or have something equally horrible happen to them. All I did was raise a rather obvious (to me) question concerning the uncertainty of life... AND you answered my question by saying you hated life's uncertainty! Fine. Based upon your posting, I asked a question and made NO assumptions concerning you or your reading habits. Based upon my posting, you *immediately* assumed certain things concerning me and my reading habits. This is something that has really bothered me concerning sf-lovers - the tendency to lump someone who takes a contradictory opinion with those whose opinion you despise thereby allowing you to ignore whatever they say. I don't fit into any of the molds that various people on the net - from Davis Tucker to Ken Moreau - have tried to put me in. Next time, deal with what I write, not what you decide you want to assume concerning me - most likely you're assumptions will be wrong. Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa ------------------------------ From: utah-gr!donn@topaz.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Re: Rereading Date: 8 Jul 85 01:05:18 GMT >From: mae@aplvax.UUCP (Mary Anne Espenshade) >... I have one question for all of you on this - > HOW DO YOU HAVE TIME FOR THIS????? I don't. But I do it anyway... It's just one of those things. I start thinking about a scene or a character from a book I really liked so I take it down from the shelf and before I realize it I'm halfway through. I've learned to stop worrying when this happens; I no longer put myself on a schedule that forces me through a pile of books at a rate I don't like. In fact I never read anything any more unless I'm in the mood for it -- there's no sense in making a duty out of something you enjoy. There are added benefits to rereading, less important than having fun, but still worth considering. I often notice different things on a multiple reading -- for example, I might be confused or puzzled about some point in the plot of a book, and upon rereading it will suddenly become clear. Or there might be a clever touch or two that didn't register on a first pass. Some books seem to have the sort of architecture that won't permit you to read them in a single linear pass, whose events can't be analyzed unless you can see them in a different order. (Gene Wolfe's PEACE comes to mind...) Sometimes the structure of a book, hidden before, is beautifully and unexpectedly unveiled by a later rereading. One day you'll happen to pull a book off the shelf and scan through it for something and maybe you won't really be paying attention and the pages are just flipping past but a word or a sentence will flash in your eye and you'll stop and stare and exclaim, 'What!? I don't remember anything like that!' And then you'll be hooked on rereading... I don't have time to read netnews either, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Jul 85 1125-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #260 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 11 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 260 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Saberhagen & Sladek & Hardcover Books, Films - Cocoon & Explorers & Back to the Future (2 msgs) & Rocky Horror, Television - Blake's Seven & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Discrepancies & Makel Barrett ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: h-sc1!friedman@topaz.arpa (dawn friedman) Subject: Re: Query on latest Heinlein? Date: 9 Jul 85 22:18:25 GMT > From: > Has anyone yet read Heinlein's latest; "Cats - A Comedy of > Manners"?? Long standing question tangential to this: Does anyone know where Heinlein picked up this " A Comedy of ... " subtitling? It reminds me of James Branch Cabell, but other authors may well enough have used it, and I thought Niven was the only one who picked up on Cabell. Inside scoops, anyone? dsf ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster) Subject: Berserker Date: 8 Jul 85 16:24:15 GMT I sorta remember a request for Berserker information (i.e. names and ordering of books) a while back, but I don't remember ever seeing a response. Having never read a Berserker book, but being continually assaulted by references, I have decided to fill the void in my life by doing some heavy-duty catching-up. I would be interested in getting an ordered list of Berserker books. PLEASE reply by mail; I promise to post a follow-up summary if and when I get sufficient response. joel "vo" plutchak {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 85 09:25:56 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Sladek's "Mechasm" From: Peter Alfke Does ANYONE have for sale, or know where I can buy, a copy of John Sladek's "Mechasm" / "The Reproductive System" ?? I've had no luck finding it; I suppose it's out of print. --Peter Alfke alfke.pasa@xerox ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Hardcover book value guide, SF especially Date: 9 Jul 85 21:26:24 GMT A couple questions relating to the value (in terms of prices to collectors) of hardcover books: 1) I've seen paperback value guides, but about all I've ever seen covering hardbacks were reports of book auctions (stuff our local library's bibliography department had). Since I am particularily interested in the value of some SF hardbacks I have, and these cover everything since printing was invented and seem to neglect modern stuff, especially such looked-down-upon genres as SF, they aren't very useful. I believe some dealers publish catalogs, maybe in tabloid form (I have one old catalog in such a format), which might be useful as a price/value guide -- main problem is that they are not comprehensive -- just has what the dealer happens to have in stock at the moment. Would anyone recommend any particular dealers' catalogs for this purpose? So, can anyone recommend sources of values for SF hardbacks? 2) Are there any SF Book Club editions that are collectible/rare/etc. and therefore higher-valued than run-of-the-mill reading-copy prices? Or are any SFBC editions just worth a couple dollars or so? Thanks for any info! Regards, Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 85 08:28 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Cocoon Cocoon -- a Brief Review Imagine a cross between Close Encounters (I swear they used CE3K's puppets for the ETs, although with more interior lighting -- why do aliens always glow, anyway?) and On Golden Pond, and you have this movie. It's a terrific movie if you like to watch old people: watch old people swim, watch old people screw, watch old people break dance. There was not much else in this movie. And the ending was pure cop out. Lisa ------------------------------ From: oliveb!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Explorers -- a pico review. Date: 9 Jul 85 08:11:23 GMT Just saw EXPLORERS (7/8/85)... From Joe Dante (Gremlins) comes a cute, fun, science fantasy about a three kids who are given the key to interplanetary travel. After some local mischief, the three (a street-kid, a sf-type, and a student brainiac) head off to discover the answers to life, the universe, and everything from an unseen all-knowing alien race. What they expect is far from what they find. I liked it, but I'm not sure it's worth the $5-$6 that most of the bigger theaters normally ask. I give it a 7 out of 10. Good family fare. Looks like they are already thinking-up the script to EXPLORERS II. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 85 18:38:05 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Throw another time travel theory into "Back to the Future". This is a slight spoiler I guess. a few digests back someone mentioned the two time travel theories that seemed to be implied by the movie. I suggest a third one is also implied, the theory that the time flow will somehow smooth everything out so that it looks like no interference ever happened (either you get absorbed into "standard history" or the universe bends probability way out of line to keep things straight). As evidence I first point to the scene with the young Goldie sweepinng up in the coffeeshop and then to the scene of Marvin Berry calling his brother (?) Charles. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Subject: Back to the future (SPOILER) Date: 11 Jul 85 01:38:46 EDT (Thu) From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA SPOILER Well, not really, we all know he's gonna make it back, but if you watch really carefully, just before Marty gets back to the future, the future (his present) is different: he lives in a Moral-Majority ruled state, with police helicopters shining search-lights on the citizenry below (or maybe that's just the way California really is...) The triple-X theater advertises a revival meeting instead of ``Orgy, American Style'', the streets are littered, but the same old wino is sleeping on the park bench. Then he returns, and the theater marquee reverts to advertising an X-rated movie, and all is normal (more or less). Watch real carefully, it's over in just a few seconds. God, I wonder how many things like this I MISSED... (And who's Mary, anyway?) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 18:08:37-PDT From: kovner%gwen.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Rocky Horror Audience Participation I recently saw _The Rocky Horror Picture Show_ at the Hahvahd Squahe theater (Cambridge Ma.), WITH the "Boston Rocky Horror Players" (? I don't have the ad) performing simultaneously. There was, as expected, audience participation, although not as spirited as it might have been. (Possible **SPOILERS** - although, to me, RHPS is not spoiled by knowing the plot; possibly a requirement for the movie to have cult status.) I did not find the ap to interfere with the movie much at all. Only the scenes with the criminologist were inaudible under the remarks about his having "no f**ng neck." (I'm not sure that this is common or not; I have heard of one case where some supporters were calling out "Grey's OK" [The criminologist is played by Charles Grey, who also played James Bond's "Q".]) In most cases, the ap occurred during repetitive moments, and the film could be heard as well. Also, the AP CHANGES. For example, as the camera panned across the Transylvanian conventioneers watching Frankenfurter creating Rocky, someone called out, "We are the world!" This MUST be a recent addition. The unprepared person could, however, be upset over the shower of rice, the toilet paper, and the squirt guns. To those, I sugest sitting off to the side. The showoffs all seemed to be in the center. It is, I suppose also possible that someone could be upset over the fact that many comments are obscene, but they would despise the movie, too. I will leave out the any review of the movie or the locals acting out the movie (in full costume). I do feel that the audience participation does not hurt the movie, and may improve it. (Isn't it fun calling Brad an a**hole?) So, Don't dream it -- See it! Steve Kovner UUCP:{ decvax, allegra, ucbvax }!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-regina!kovner ARPA:kovner%regina.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Mon 8 Jul 85 16:27:48-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Blake's Seven > From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) > And now for something completely different..BLAKE'S SEVEN. > I have been told that this hasn't been shown in the U.S. yet but > the networks should come to their senses soon. It was great, some > episodes were straight S.T. rip offs but otherwise the show was > superb. The plots were ingenious with lots of twists but you would > have to see it to understand. The last series (as usual) wasn't as > good. > I think this deserves some discussion ,at least over here. Judging by the lack of response to this posting, Blake's Seven obviously hasn't been shown in the U.S. God knows why as it was by far the best SF series the BBC ever made (That'll annoy the Dr Who fans). ******Micro Spoiler****** To take a bunch of criminals and turn them into galactic heroes took some doing but Terry Nation managed it. Even if the stories had been absolute garbage (which they weren't) the strength of character of Villa "Show me a lock and I'll break it", Avon "Show me a computer operating system and I'll break it", Blake "Show me the empire and I'll break it" and Servalan "Show me Avon/Blake and I'll break them" carried every show. ******Spoiler****** The command conflict between Avon and Blake gradually built up during the first series, with idealistic Blake all set to right all the wrongs of the Universe but Avon merely wanting to do so if he could settle old scores or become rich in the process. Timid Villa was always on hand to inject a little humour to try and cool things down or, more likely, would just hide ! The writing out of Blake made it easier for Avon to assume control and although the second series managed to trundle on quite nicely the third was becoming increasingly a little kids programme with really only the interplay between Avon and Villa holding the whole thing together. That was until... ******Mega Spoiler****** People often complain that SF tv never ever ends and that the heroes never die. Well here's one show that they can't complain about. The carnage of the last episode in which the cast (including the recently rediscovered Blake) are gunned down one by one with all the blood and guts to go with it brought the most letters that the BBC magazine (rather archaically called 'The Radio Times') had ever received on any one programme. The end sees only Avon still standing. His paranoia about the Universe having built up to such a level throughout the last series that it actually culminates in him killing Blake under the belief that Blake has betrayed them. Avon stands astride his colleagues bodies, surrounded by armed enemy guards, raises his gun and laughs. The screen fades and the sound of gunfire from all corners his heard. The END I remember walking round like a goldfish and meeting other Blake fans acting likewise: "The BBC can't do that" "But they did" And so it ended for us in the UK but back a few timezones you have it all to look forward to. Alan Greig Computer Centre Dundee College Of Technology Dundee Scotland ------------------------------ Subject: Re: "Where no man has gone before" Date: 10 Jul 85 22:22:58 PDT (Wed) From: Alastair Milne >>How likely is it that anyone would send so expensive a ship off >>into nowhere for 5 years? > Very. As a general rule, exploration ships fall into two classes: > unarmed and armed. .... Besides, human ships are always armed. > Haven't you read any space opera? What on earth has this response got to do with the question? Unless you equate weaponry with expense, it seems irrelevant. The point of the question was that Enterprise was one of the 12 or 13 most advanced ships in the fleet, and as such served a number of duties, of which exploration and experimentation (not necessarily synonymous) were only two. The Federation simply couldn't afford to send so powerful and useful a ship off on its own, out of all contact, for so long a period. A year perhaps, maybe two, and even then you'd see it seriously debated in Starfleet's upper offices. Enterprise is certainly far more than a scout ship, and the question involves much more than whether she should be armed -- which she is, of course, heavily. > As for naming, I believe most of the visible stars have been > named. Do you indeed? (I assume you're talking about individual, non-systematic names like Rigel, rather than Beta Orionis). Assuming that by "visible" you mean what the unaided eye can see (from Earth) on a night with good seeing and no extraneous light to obstruct vision, then there are many more stars than have been named. Add a telescope, and you can just about forget the idea of individual, non-systematic names for every star (how many? 100,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000? more?). Now widen your scope to every star in the galaxy, not just the restricted set we can see. Is the degree of horror becoming clearer? > Man, as a race, is arrogant. Not nearly as much as so many apologists would have us think. Besides, what relevance has this to naming the stars? > As long as StarFleet sticks to names of the form > Starname-Planet_#, they're on well established ground. Naturally. This is the purpose of doing things by convention, systematically. Can you imagine the chaos (and the suicides by librarians) that would ensue if the individual names given by a thousand civilisations to over 10,000,000,000 stars were *all* in common use!!?? Besides, every time you discovered a new one, you'd have to invent a new, *distinct* name for it. Far better to have a system that has a slot already allocated for it. Spare the librarians. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 85 20:27 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on) >thus causality is violated. But how many SF stories that have >faster-than-light travel, consider these extremely important >ramifications? Well, STAR TREK did. There were at least two episodes wherein the Warp Drives (plus extraneous things like black holes) where used for time travel. >It is pretty silly that SF stories use faster-than-light travel, >because almost any story that does use it could be easily rewritten >to use parallel universes instead, without these problems. See Larry Niven's _All_The_Myriad_Ways_ for why he (and I) hate the standard parallel universe concept (cross-time). If it really bugs you, just go thru all ftl books and replace "spaceship" with "parallel universe machine." Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 85 08:19 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Majel Barrett Yes, she was in Genesis II/Planet Earth, too. (I think in both) as a minor character. I believe she was a communications type -- mostly you just heard her voice. I don't think she's such a bad actress. And give Gene R credit -- he's never given her a very LARGE part in his productions, especially not since he married her. Lisa Star Trek Welcommittee ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jul 85 2127-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #261 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 12 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 261 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Heuer & Laumer & Wilson & A Story Request & Foreign SF & Time Control Stories, Music - SF in Music, Miscellaneous - FTL Travel (2 msgs) & Spoilers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Rereading Brust (& Sequels) Date: 1 Jul 85 17:43:04 GMT > SKZB, any chance of eventually getting (if not another 15 books to > complete the cycle) a prequel showing Vlad meeting Morollan and a > sequel/prequel wrapping up Vlad's knowledge of his previous life? > Pretty please. Thanks. If I don't get bored with the books, or start feeling that I have nothing more to say through them (probably the same thing) I will probably do one called EASTERNER that will contain Vlad's first meeting with Morrolan, etc. I'm not sure about the later stuff. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: Hardcover book value guide, SF especially Date: 10 Jul 85 20:19:33 GMT A specific question, if anyone out there has some sort of value-guide to hardbacks, or dealers' catalogs which list this one: I recall reading this book when I was very young, getting it from the local library, and being impressed with it. I recently came across a mint-condition (practically) copy of it, and I would think it would be somewhat rare. It is: MEN OF OTHER PLANETS by Kenneth Heuer, published by Pellegrini & Cudahy, New York, 1951. It is a delightful book, full of fascinating woodcut-style illustrations, depicting various forms of intelligent lifeforms designed to live under the conditions then envisaged (1940's vintage scientific thought) to exist on other planets in the Solar System, plus some rather wild speculation as to forests on the dark side of the moon, creatures living in the Sun, etc. Does anyone else recall reading this book back in the early 50's? It must have had quite an impact, for I remembered it (vaguely) ever since, and I recognized the title and book instantly when I saw it in a pile of books for sale. If anyone can find any reference to this book having some collectible value, I'd appreciate their sending or posting any info they can find. Thanks much! Will Martin USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed 10 Jul 85 12:49:03-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Lafayette O'Leary (Controlling Time) > From: usceast!ted@topaz.arpa > Let's not forget Keith Laumer's Lafayette O'Leary stories. I > think the first was called _The Time Bender_. I found them very > enjoyable. The four O'Leary books are /The Time Bender/, /The World Shuffler/, /The Shape Shifter/ [may not be exact title] and the latest one is /The Galaxy Builder/. > (I haven't yet dared read the latest in the series, given the > unrelieved badness of Laumer's recent work - what has happened to > this guy? (Laumer, not O'Leary)) You're not missing anything. While the first three are reasonably good, the fourth one is absolutely incomprehensible. (*ANTI-SPOILER*) I managed to make it through with the delusion that perhaps Laumer really had a plot (or at least an interesting finale) in the works, but I was wrong. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 85 10:40:53 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: Comments on Colin Wilson I suppose I'm one of the "avid fans" of Colin Wilson's works that Mark Leeper mentioned. While I like his work, I don't think he's the greatest thing since indoor plumbing or whatever. He has his flaws: he's opinionated, sexist, elitist (or, at least, he comes across that way in his books). However, he's also very intelligent. "Philosopher" is as good a term as any. So, a few corrections from someone who (thinks he) knows better: Wilson and August Derleth weren't friends until AFTER Wilson wrote THE MIND PARASITES. Mark was right about the "Outsider"/OUTSIDER connection. Wilson wrote a book (THE STRENGTH TO DREAM: LITERATURE AND THE IMAGINATION), in one chapter of which he took Lovecraft to task for HPL's own literary failings. Derleth read this and then asked Wilson if he thought he could do a better job with the Cthulhu Mythos. Wilson responded with THE MIND PARASITES, which Derleth's Arkham House published. Wilson's literary and philosophical concerns have been, ever since THE OUTSIDER, his 1st book, was published in 1955, those aspects of human existence that set apart some people from the mainstream of human society. There's a theme that should be familiar to SF-LOVERS everywhere. Wilson concentrates on topics that the mass of society finds "lurid" or "sensational", most notably, sex, violence, and magic. His non-fiction and fiction alike have been attempts to explain why those topics appeal to some and not to others. His THE OCCULT is generally considered to be an important work about the nature of magic and magicians (i.e., sorcerers). He considers himself "a novelist of ideas". Of the three works Mark mentioned, I would agree that THE SPACE VAMPIRES is the weakest. If the title (and that of MP) is "lurid", well, that's part of what he's talking about, isn't it? I was very surprised to learn someone had tried to turn this into a film. As Mark said, the book's strong point is its ideas, not its plot. BTW, when was Kirlian photography discredited? On what grounds? Mark, I'd be interested to know what 48 books came ahead of MIND PARASITES in your local SF group's discussion, and why. I consider the book to be one of the most important (and enjoyable) I've ever read; I usually reread it every few years -- doesn't take more than an evening or two of concentrated reading. I originally picked it up because of my interest in Lovecraft. While he plays fast-and-loose with the Cthulhu Mythos, he certainly uses it in interesting ways. And, Mark, if you like stories where magic is revealed to be unexplained science, you should look up "The Return of the Lloigor" in TALES OF THE CTHULHU MYTHOS. Again, it plays fast-and-loose, but Derleth thought it good enough to include in that collection (even if it does "reinterpret" one of his own Mythos additions, Lloigor), and it is in some sense a forerunner of MIND PARASITES. (While I also enjoyed PHILOSOPHER'S STONE, it can't be considered a true Mythos story -- it plays TOO fast-and-loose.) I cannot recommend Wilson to many (those "specialized tastes", I guess). Certainly, those readers who prefer outright escapism or books sans self- critical protagonists won't like him. But if you like sex, violence, magic, AND intelligent philosophy, give him a try. Chris ------------------------------ Date: 09-Jul-1985 1721 From: mcculley%castor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Bruce McCulley) Subject: UFO (or "The Personal Disasters of Cmdr. Straker") > From: Alastair Milne > "...But there were still a lot of strange things: why the women on > moon base wore lavender hair (though they looked normal enough on > earth); ..." from looking around at some of today's fashions, lavender hair *DOES* look normal enough on earth (at least in some situations). > "The earth side of things was done moderately well. Low, sleek > cars, with gull-wing doors. The doors opened just quickly enough > so that you couldn't really say "nobody would ever use something > like that"... why would you say such a thing? there are some classic gull-wing sports cars (I'd love to have a concours Mercedes 300SLR!) around, people who use them seem to think they make sense. > "...I recall one <...episode...> where Col. Foster crashed on the > moon, and was injured, with his spacesuit damaged. He was found > by an alien who, instead of killing him, assisted him back toward > moon base, several days' journey, with constant repairs needed to > Foster's suit, and the constant fear between the two temporary > allies who otherwise would have been deadly enemies. It was > powerful. " this description reminds me of an extraordinarily powerful story I read (at a fairly young and impressionable age) about a strikingly similar plot. I can recall neither title nor author, although I have a faint recollection that it might have been by Damon Knight (or perhaps Harlan Ellison, it was a library book by a "name" author that was not one of my staples). To the best of my recollection, it was a juvenile story (although perhaps not, I was a juvenile when I read it) about a young teenage girl stranded in some situation alone on the moon, encountering an alien (first contact?) and a temporary alliance based on mutual need in the face of fear. The story line involved a struggle to get back to some sort of base camp, an attempt to strand the alien that had to be reversed for a subsequent need, and the protoganist finally lying stricken by a venomous bite listening to the alien key the code calling her family from orbit to help her. Can anybody identify this story from the information given? I'd like to see if my initial impression of the story's strength holds up on rereading it. thanks - Bruce McCulley DEC SW Development ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA ((the Shadow)) Subject: Foreign (to me) SF Date: 10 Jul 85 12:59:26 GMT I am interested in acquiring some sf that is rare or non-existent in this country. I am looking for German books as well as English, although my reading ability is still rather limited in that language. I might also be interested in some French works. There are three types of information I am looking for: 1) titles & authors of good books 2) publishers and/or bookstores with mail-order services 3) people who would be willing to buy books and mail them to me if sent the proper postage I would especially appreciate some help from those in Europe, but wouldn't turn down a pointer from this side of the pond. PS - please MAIL responses and "me too"s ... UUCP: {seismo,decvax,unc}!brl-bmd!jeffh ARPA: USnail: 508 Wheel Rd. Bel Air, MD 21014 ------------------------------ From: gary@think.ARPA (Gary Sabot) Subject: Re: Time control stories Date: 10 Jul 85 16:21:23 GMT Did anyone notice that the girl from planet Gaiea (spelling?) in Foundation's Edge seems suspiciously like the girl who went back in time with the engineer in The End of Eternity-- is she a robot who changed history because of the First Law? Is Asimov really going to tie everything he ever wrote together in the next foundation book? ------------------------------ Date: Mon 8 Jul 85 16:52:06-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Science Fiction in Music I've been following SF-LOVERS for about 9 months now and I've seen many forms of SF discussed with the exception of one which I find surprising. Nobody ever seems to talk about music, either its SF content or the influences it may have had on some piece of SF writing. I could give a few examples of both. How about for example: Genesis: Watcher of the Skies Hawkwind: Sonic Attack (even written by Michael Moorcock) David Bowie: Major Tom Pink Floyd: Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun (Did this influence Douglas Adams when he wrote of Disaster Area? "Ford, did you know that robot can hum like Pink Floyd ?") Rush: 2112 Plus lots of other tracks by these or other groups. What does everyone else think ? There seems no reason to me why words and music are less valid as Sci-Fi than words and paper or words and acting. Alan Greig Computer Centre Dundee College of Technology Dundee Scotland Janet: Alan%DCT@DDXA Arpa: Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 85 09:22:47 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl and so on) From: Peter Alfke Doug Alan writes: >The use of faster-than-light travel in almost all SF is pretty >assinine, because almost no SF story considers the full effect that >a faster-than-drive would have on the world that is described in >the story. According to Special Relativity, faster-than-light >travel is exactly equivalent to traveling backwards in time: there >is no difference. Actually, according to Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel is just plain impossible. All the sqrt(v^2 / c^2) terms turn imaginary... Any story in which ftl works is tacitly assuming that something new has superceded Relativity in the same manner as Relativity superceded Newtonian mechanics. That, or the author just doesn't care about all the physical ramifications; he/she just needs ftl to tell the story. (Either approach is equally valid in my book.) --Peter Alfke alfke.pasa@xerox ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jul 85 09:37:09 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: ftl discrepancies From: Peter Alfke Joel Upchurch writes: >most 'FTL' drives in SF don't literally assume you can go faster >than light. They use 'warp drives' through 'Hyperspace', which is >usually defined to be an alternate universe of some sort which has >a one-to-one mapping onto our universe, but is much smaller. There >are many variations on this theme, of course. So there is no >violation of Relativity. There IS violation of Relativity. Relativity prohibits any transfer of information at speeds greater than that of light. It doesn't matter how the information got from one place to another, just the distance covered per time taken. Upsetting, isn't it? --Peter Alfke alfke.pasa@xerox ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Jul 85 16:28:45 EDT From: Melinda Berkman Subject: spoiler warnings Despite all the chit-chat about spoilers and spoiler warnings lately, people are still not using them . Reading a book when you know what is going to happen is not quite the same as when you do, and it should be clear by now that some of us would at least like the option of experiencing the former as well as the latter. I just finished reading the fourth book in the Amber series last night, and was so anxious to read the fifth, Courts of Chaos, that I was even willing to spend real money and try to buy it new rather than wait until it turned up in my local used book store. This is a series that particularly depends on surprise and not knowing who is doing what to whom, with the protaganist and reader discovering a little more of the Truth in each novel. Then someone summarized the entire book in a review of Trumps of Doom, with putting a spoiler warning on the review or that particular paragraph. It is not easy to turn your eyes away from your terminal in the middle of a sentence; most people read more than a word at a time! It would be going too far to say that Courts of Chaos is entirely ruined for me, but I NEVER would have guessed from the ending of Hand of Oberon that things were going to end up the way they evidently do. So, people, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE USE ********** SPOILER WARNINGS ********** !!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Melinda Berkman (mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jul 85 2226-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #262 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 12 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 262 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Coulson & Saberhagen, Films - Back to the Future (3 msgs) & Star Wars, Miscellaneous - Spaceweek & Discrepancies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 11 Jul 85 11:42:40-PDT From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Brin's super creatures ****** Spoiler warning ****** This talks about David Brin's STARTIDE RISING and POSTMAN. I finally read STARTIDE RISING by David Brin on a recent plane trip. Then I was given an autographed galley of his forthcoming book, POSTMAN, at the American Booksellers convention, which I quickly read. While I enjoyed both books, I felt that each had a significant flaw. Finally I realized that the two books had the same flaw, in that Brin is presenting unviable super creatures. In both books, the new, improved creatures just did not make sense or could survive as a new species. In Startide Rising, the Dolphins are uplifted by increasing their intelligence. But, they can only function with the technology supplied by humans. The flaw with the Dolphins is that uplift should have included converting flippers to hands. The Dolphins are basically helpless without humans (or chimps) around, or without the human provided technology. A group of abandoned humans can rebuild their technology (ie Swiss Family Robinson or Mysterious Island), but abandoned Dolphins are just wise-cracking swimming mammals. The hide and seek shoot-em-up on the seaweed mats had to be a human, a Dolphin couldn't have done it. However, the same scene would have worked with a handed Dolphin. Note that the humans are somewhat servants of the Dolphins, in that humans must assist the Dolphins with work that are beyond Dolphin capablities. In the other races, the older parent race lays back and lets the client race(s) do all of the dirty work. In Postman, Brin presents a group of US soldiers that were augmented to be super deluxe fighters, sort of like the six million dollar man (CYBORG). Here the augmentation is engineered into their bodies, it is not genetic. So the group of augmented soldiers cannot increase without complex medical facilities and lots of scientists, engineers, and technicans. Brin presents a feudal society growing up in the areas conquered by the augmented soldiers. However, feudal society is based on the family, and the sons inheriting the spoils that the father has won. Unfortunately, the sons are not going to be augmented, and are going to be real disappointments to their fathers. The main motivation that Brin represents in the augmented and their followers is to conquer, destroy, and kill the remaining pockets of civilization, especially the one town that has enough equipment, people, and knowledge that they might be able to build more augmented soldiers. Randy NEFF@SU-SIERRA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 17:05 EDT From: Mark F. Rand Subject: Juanita Coulson(??) Hello everyone (especially Jayambee!)... Has anyone heard of two books (I think) written by Juanita Coulson(? not sure of spelling)?? They are "Hiero's Journey" and "A Forsaken Hiero". I read both of 'em a while back and was wondering if there was another of the Hiero books comming in the future or if it's around but just not in my area or bookstore.... Anybody out there know anything about the above??? Oh yea, from what I remember of the story, it's supposed to take place in the future on Earth a long time after a nuclear war.. There are mutants roaming around(larger,more intelligent,nastier versions of animals and people of today ) and there are widely dispersed communities of "normal" humans. These separate communities seem to keep some form of contact between each other thru their local monastaries. The monks are a combination of priest,soldier( Intelligence Corps),scientist(trying to figure out the old machines)and witch doctor(Extra sense percept., healer). (*I don't think the above was a spoiler*). See ya Mark Rand (TIGQC356@CUNYVM & COMPUSERVE 75615,1712 ) ------------------------------ To: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster) Subject: Re: Berserker Date: 12 Jul 85 11:04:53 PDT (Fri) From: Jim Hester Most of the Berserker stuff is in short story form, and while the short stories in a given book may (or may not) be ordered, the relation between them and the stories in another book are not always clear. There may be a strict ordering: I like the stories but have not studied them carefully. In any event reading in strict order of fictional time is not necessarily advisable, since you may need familiarity with Berserkers to understand some of Man's first encounters with them. The following commented lists describe the order, such as it is, which I would advise reading them. READ THESE IN THE ORDER LISTED: Berserker (1967): short stories The original. It covers much history in a reasonably coherant fashon. { The Ultimate Enemy (1979), The Berserker Wars (1981) }: short stories Read these two collections in either order, it doesn't matter. Berserker Base (1985): short stories tied together This strongly hints at a possible end to the wars. Saberhagan (Berserker's creator and author of all the others) asked several well-known SF authors to each write a Berserker story, and then he wrote (fictional) forwards and afterwards which tie them all together into a single FANTASTIC story. But you need the background of the previous stories to appreciate it. READ THESE (or don't) IN ANY ORDER AND AT ANY TIME AFTER READING BERSERKER (1967): Berserker Man (1979): novel This hints at another possible end to the wars. My memory is weak on this one, since it did not impress me as a Berserker story. Nice enough tale, but I seem to recall it centering on humans without much Berserker interaction. The plot could have been associated with ANY war, not specifically Berserkers. Worth reading, but don't expect to learn much about Berserkers. Brother Assassin (1969): three related novellas All concern one planet's time-travelling battles with Berserkers. Again, nice tales and well worth reading, but not very Berserker-specific (there ARE Berserkers in these tales, but they are in the background almost all of the time). Berserker's Planet (1975): novel If you liked the way the Illiad describes battles ("and X swung at Y and missed and then Y swung at X and missed and then X cunningly replied with a low stab, but was thwarted, and then Y tripped over a stone but regained balance in time............"), then you'll love this. Otherwise it's crap; the only one I actively disliked, mostly out of sheer boredom and reaction to the pointlessness. A damaged Berserker sets itself up as a God of War on a planet of primitives as a way to coerce them into killing each other, and you literally get 200 pages of pitiful description of swordplay; nothing enlightening about Berserkers or Man's battles against them. Even the false God is only mentioned a couple of times in the third person (by the primitives as they kill each other in its name). ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 09:36:27-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: Rev. Jim (Taxi) Speaking of all the things "Rev.Jim" has been in lately...I recently saw a VERY old western on t.v. and he was the bad guy. (I have no idea what the name of the movie was) Does anyone else know of any early stuff he has done? Pre-Taxi and pre-Star Trek. "in my opinion" - He plays an excellent "bad" guy, klingon or gunslinger. He also plays an excellent "crazy". Pretty versatile, I'd say!!! (As you can tell, he's one of my favorites) Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 85 16:23:16 EDT From: Daniel.Zigmond@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Back to The Future (SPOILER) ***SPOILER*** The one thing that bothered me about Back to the Future wasn't that it made use of parallel universes but that it seemed to use them wrong. Marty changed both universes. The changes to the universe he returned to were obvious: his parents had dfferent personalities, he had a new truck, etc... However, he also changed the universe he left. He invented rock and roll (essentially). While he is playing Jonny B Goode at the dance (in 1955), the guitarist with the broken arm (whose name was something Berry) calls his brother "Chuck" to tell him about this great new style of music that Marty is playing. This means that universe 1 (where Marty started) shouldn't have had any rock music in it because Marty wasn't around in 1955 to let Chuck know about it. Of course, it did because otherwise Marty wouldn't have known the song (or have been in a rock band). Dan (djz@cmu-cs-spice) ------------------------------ From: uwvax!pfeiffer@topaz.arpa (Phil Pfeiffer) Subject: Re: Back to the future (SPOILER) Date: 11 Jul 85 19:08:20 GMT > SPOILER > > Well, not really, we all know he's gonna make it back, but if you > watch really carefully, just before Marty gets back to the future, > the future (his present) is different: he lives in a > Moral-Majority ruled state, with police helicopters shining > search-lights on the citizenry below (or maybe that's just the way > California really is...) The triple-X theater advertises a > revival meeting instead of ``Orgy, American Style'', the streets > are littered, but the same old wino is sleeping on the park bench. > > Then he returns, and the theater marquee reverts to advertising an > X-rated movie, and all is normal (more or less). wrong wrong wrong. There are TWO theatres, one in his direction of travel, and one on the right side of the square as you are facing the clock. sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 11 Jul 85 11:46:18-MDT From: Peter Badovinatz Subject: Star Wars and the Good Guys From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (Jeff Hanes ) >> SECTION 2: My most despised scene in STAR WARS III >> >> You know the one I'm talking about: Vader Wimps Out. They >> should have never taken off his mask ... >How *should* "Return of the Jedi" have ended? > >Well- that insipid farm-boy should have given in to Darth's > superior abilities. > > the rebels should have been decimated (in the original, > Latin sense), and forced to begin anew (thus paving the way > for a third movie trilogy -- and further triumphs for Darth > Vader). > > most important -- the ewoks should have been thoroughly > eradicated ... just on general principles. Good points. Had Lucas listened to the above advice I would have been forced to attend the movie more than the two obligatory viewings I was present at. Ah, to see the Ewoks as blades of grass and Darth as the lawn mower... But noooo... Darth casts away his principles, his life, everything he worked for. The Ewoks are still scampering about like the un-demented teddy bears they are. (I could have handled the teddy bears if they had been a bit more mercenary, like Han Solo before the Millenium Falcon did its Silver imitation.) But enough. Just thinking of the Ewoks gives me saccharin poisoning. Think I'll go re-read a Covenant book. I need a bit of disgust and loathing right now. Peter R Badovinatz ARPA: badovinatz@utah-20 Univ of Utah CS Dept UUCP: ...!utah-cs!badovin ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1985 1249-PDT (Thursday) From: Craig E. Ward To: Space@mit-mc, Aviation@mit-mc, Physics@sri-unix Subject: Spaceweek 1985 Spaceweek-1985 Activivites A Series of Events in Celebration of the 16th Anniversary of the First Manned Moon Landing In honor of Spaceweek 1985, OASIS/L5 will be sponsoring the following events. The attendance at some of the events is limited so make your reservations now. July 16, 18, 24, Satellite Business Systems, Downtown Los Angles A Tour of Satellite Business Systems On each of these days, from 2:00 to 5:00pm, we will be having a tour of the largest satellite data processing facility on the west coast. Each tour is limited to 30 people. For reservations, call F. Wiley Livermont at (818)700-8382. July 20, Rockwell International DEI Room, Downey A Tour of the Rockwell DEI Room See a full scale mock-up of the Space Shuttle and the Space Station Crew Module. There will also be a short presentation by Howard Gluckman of Rockwell International. Events start at 10:00am. Enter the Rockwell International Plant at Gate 53 near the corner of Bellflower, Stewart and Grey Blvds. July 20, TRW Forum, Redondo Beach Next Human Destination: The Moons of Mars Well known futurist and former astronaut Dr. Brian O'Leary will speak on the possible missions to the moons of Mars. The TRW forum is located at 1 Space Park in Redondo Beach. Enter TRW at Compton Blvd. just east of Aviation Blvd. The talk starts at 3:00pm. July 21, California Museum of Science and Industry, Los Angles Aerospace Museum Tour and IMAX Theater Presentation Starting at 11:00am, we will have a tour of the Aerospace Museum. At 2:30pm, there will be an IMAX presentation of the film "The Dream is Alive", which includes IMAX space shuttle footage. Tickets will have to be purchased for this event. For reservations, call F. Wiley Livermont at (818)700-8382. July 21, Griffith Observatory, Los Angles The California Universe -- 50th Anniversary Meet at the Griffith Observatory at about 7:00pm for the evening observatory show. Tickets will have to be purchased at the Observatory. Week of July 22, TRW, Redondo Beach A Tour of the Satellite High Bay Facility at TRW We are also currently trying to arrange a tour sometime during the week of July 22 for a small group of people. If you would like to go on the tour, call F. Wiley Livermont at (818)700-8382. For more information about the above events, call (213)374-1381. OASIS/L5 P.O. Box 1231 Redondo Beach, CA 90278 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 19:30 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: Discrepancies (ftl travel and so on) To: Doug Alan >> Well, STAR TREK did. There were at least two episodes wherein >> the Warp Drives (plus extraneous things like black holes) where >> used for time travel. >Yeah, but those weren't normal occurances. They only happened when >the warp drive went on the fritz. Not true! In the first episode (where they pick up the pilot who thinks they're a UFO) it's an accident, but in the second one (with Gary Seven) they go back on purpose to the 1970(?)s to see how Earth managed to survive the arms race. I think there was another one where they go back in time a couple of days to avoid disaster, but I'm not sure. >Yeah, well I do, but I'd wish they'd do it themselves. It's >distracting! In one case they did. H. Beam Piper's _Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen_ was originally a space travel story. For unexplained reasons, (in the story, that is. It seems likely Piper had an explaination in mind) the hero (proto-Kalvin) was able to have children with a native of the planet, and (appartently) John Campbell didn't believe it, and hence wouldn't buy it. So Piper changed it to paratime (which is different from (read better than) cross-time). (source: one of the Piper anthologies has the original story and commentary. I think is was _Empire_ but it might have been _Federation_.) Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jul 85 2240-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #263 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 13 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 263 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Neglected Requests & A Request, Films - Charles Gray & Red Sonja, Music - SF in Music, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Some Comments & James Doohan (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jul 85 23:29:45 EDT From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Jack Chalker > I think that you're both missing the essential device (and > repetition) of Chalker's stories. Yes, he always has shape > changing (and more to the point, *sex* changing); yes, a strong > female character is generally transformed into a sexual slave (in > Web_of_the_Chozen ?...I can't remember). The main device which > links nearly all of his novels, though, is that every book has > what could be called "magic", and each one has it "explainable" by > some device or other (and in no case does he resort to a > "sufficiently advanced technology"). > > This bothered me at first, but lately I've begun to enjoy seeing > the new ways that he can rationalize magic. And even though he > does use so many recurrent themes, he manages to work them in > differently enough in each new book/series that he is consistently > fun to read. I also quite enjoy reading Chalker's rationalizations of (his particular brand of) magic, and the different ways he deals with this same plot, but it *is* after all the same plot! He deals with it in quite different ways, but it's wearing a tad thin. In the WELL OF SOULS books, it was very innovative; in AND THE DEVIL WILL DRAG YOU UNDER, it was still acceptable; but by the time you get to SOUL RIDER, there's nothing that can be added. It is all familiar territory. Though I quite like this theory of the universe, it's starting to get boring. It would not be so bad if it was the *same* theory in all of his books (as if they were all occurring in the same universe), but each new book changes the theory enough that it seems as if Chalker is trying to put one over on us (Look! A new theory!). I'm not saying that the stories are bad because they reuse ideas; I very much liked almost all of them (except DANCERS IN THE AFTERGLOW and DOWNTIMING THE NIGHTSIDE. Yecch). I just think that Chalker is a good enough writer to come up with something new. The sex-change plots certainly have a long way to go before getting passe, but I think this "primal energy" theory of magic is exhausted. --Jamie jwz@cmu-cs-spice ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 18:26:18 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Trumps of Doom Who can tell us all why the dustcover for Trumps of Doom has been withdrawn, and why Michael Whelan is seeking monetary retribution? (Hint: see the cover for Brother Assassin...) Yours in Snideness, and with thanks to The Other Change of Hobbit, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar) Subject: Appology to Zelazny Reviewer Date: 11 Jul 85 22:48:44 GMT I recently posted a correction to a Zelazny review, stating that Jack of Shadows did not relate to the Amber Shadows in any way. Unfortunately, I also attacked the reviewer's style in the same followup. I publically appologize for putting my personal remarks in the public eye. It was rude on my part, at the very least. David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber ARPA: davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk%amber@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 00:49:50 EDT From: Steven A. Swernofsky Subject: neglected short story requests and other stories To: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Paula, you have struck a chord. Because of the many^2 responses to story requests, (which ususally appear immediately) normally I ignore them totally. But you are right: the best way to promote good fiction, SF or otherwise, is to *promote* it. So, here are a few of my favorite works of ''short SF.'' Isaac Asimov, ''Breeds There a Man'' -- hard science Isaac Asimov, ''Nightfall'' -- hard science. IA's first and probably still best Frederic Brown, ''The Little Lamb'' -- included because FB is an SF author. insanely good Harlan Ellison, '' I Have No Mouth, But I Must Scream'' (*) -- flamed about in SF-L massively already Harlan Ellison, '' 'Repent, Harlequin' said the Ticktockman'' -- rebellion and social comment Ursula K. LeGuin, ''Semley's Necklace'' -- hard science with fantasy elements Cordwainer Smith, ''The Ballad of Lost C'Mell'' -- CS is hard to pin down. call this mythic fiction Theodore Sturgeon, ''The [Widget], the [Wadget], and Boff'' -- social comment in TS's wonderful style James Tiptree, Jr., (as Racoona Sheldon) ''The Screwfly Solution'' (*) -- hard science with a dollop of feminism. JT = Alice B. Sheldon John Varley, ''The Barbie Murders'' (*) -- hard science, but NOT space opera Jack Vance, ''The Moon Moth'' -- people and society, mystery solved, charcter improvement Vernor Vinge, ''Bookworm, Run!'' -- hard science Roger Zelazny, ''But For a Breath I Tarry'' -- perhaps the best-ever story of love and self-discovery in SF (*) possibly offensive to sensitive souls Of course, I can't possibly list *all* good short SF stories, just the ones which come to mind. Literature jocks take note: there is *plenty* of good SF! You just have to look for it. (But we knew that anyway.) -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985 09:36:27-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: Rev. Jim (Taxi) Also, I previous asked if anyone knew of a title of a story I couldn't remember (memory is the first to go, you know, uh, where was I?), but I never saw an answer. Did I find a stumper for the Net'rs? I doubt it. Maybe it fell through the cracks. Anyway here it is again. One average normal day our hero comes home from an out-of-town trip to find his home and wife in a "frozen" state, cobwebs on everything. On his entrance into the house everything "comes to life". After encountering this phenomenon a few times, he begins to question his sanity. It turns out that he is the only person in the world and everything is being controlled for someone elses amusement. Gaylene ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 85 06:21 EDT (Fri) From: Mijjil Subject: Charles Gray, Rocky Horror Picture Show Charles Gray was *NOT* "Q" in the James Bond films. He did, however, portray Bond's nemesis, Blofeld, in "Diamonds Are Forever". Trivia: What is Blofeld's FULL name? {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 12:00:00 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Ronald Lacey (Red Sonja) The poor guy always gets to die horribly in searing pain, doesn't he? I think he was far more effective in Raiders of the Lost Ark as the Nazi torturer, Todt. There is something terribly evil about a grown man with a soft baby face -- makes one's flesh creep. Has he shown up anywhere else? Is he always a villain? By the way, does anyone know if the "Grandmaster" is the sensei who's been teaching them all in reality? I know he appeared in the first Conan movie, but I didn't recognise him behind all that hair and un-swordsmanlike trapping. Finally, a note on the swordplay itself. Much less satisfying than Conan I. These folks haven't been doing their kata! Nonetheless, we're still seeing the same linking of forms from iai-do (usually a solitary art, involving many different draws, cuts, ways of getting the blood off your sword -- shaking or whatever -- and resheathings. All of these parts are important, but in the Conan movies many of the blood-shakes appear to have become cuts, and resheathings become merely confusing unexplained pauses). Y'all might be amused to learn that the ad in Variety (I think), reprinted in the Society for Creative Anachronism's quarterly, "Tournaments Illuminated" read something like "Wanted: Actress with knowledge of swordplay, acrobatics and horsemanship, no models or female body-builders need apply". I wonder how many SCA fighters are among the priestesses, if any (judging from their styles, I'd say few. I've never seen more clumsy, ineffective sword-waving). The best part was the fight in the "Chamber of Lights". "Yahoo!" I said, "It's Robin and the Sherriff slicing candles again!" :-) En garde! Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 11 Jul 85 00:34:05 GMT > From: Alan Greig > I've been following SF-LOVERS for about 9 months now and I've seen > many forms of SF discussed with the exception of one which I find > surprising. Nobody ever seems to talk about music, either its SF > content or the influences it may have had on some piece of SF > writing. I could give a few examples of both. How about for > example : > > Pink Floyd: Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun > (Did this influence Douglas Adams when he wrote of > Disaster Area? "Ford, did you know that robot can hum > like Pink Floyd ?") I think we can conclude that the Floyd was in the back of Adams's mind when he wrote the passage about the Special Effects used in Hotblack Desiato's shows. I would have offered the same quote from the radio show in evidence, had it not already been done... I was always fascinated and delighted by a song by Queen, whose title I can no longer remember -- either "Volunteers" or "Forty Nine." The music was reminiscent of traditional sea songs or chantys, and the lyrics told the story of the crew of an FTL starship ... though if you didn't pay attention, it seemed to be just what it sounded like -- a song about the sea. I can't quote from the lyrics, because it's been years since I heard the song, but the crucial verse recounted how, though the protagonist has aged only slightly, the earth had grown "old and gray." It always tickled me when I recognized allusions to books I was fond of (or just genres I enjoyed) in music. Like Led Zep's use of Mordor and Gollum in "Ramble On," and the Ringwraiths in "The Battle of Evermore." Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 85 13:45:32 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: "The Doomsday Machine" From: Peter Alfke Larry Baker writes: >I find "The Doomsday Machine" (of STAR TREK fame) much more similar >to the Berserker series than the Battlestar Ponderosa fiasco, and I >suspect that the writer who wrote that story got the idea from >Saberhagen, although the idea is sufficently different to preclude >any legal action. Actually, as I remember the "Doomsday Machine" episode was written by none other than Fred Saberhagen, and the machine certainly seemed to be a real honest-to-god Berserker. This implies unpleasant events in the near future for the Star Trek universe ... maybe this is what ST5 will be about? :-) --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 85 08:15 EDT From: Jim Moore Subject: Milne's reply to "WNMHGB" The Enterprise (and the other ships in her class), as well as the various tugs, scouts, dreadnaughts, etc. were designed to be in deep space for long periods of time. How practical is it to expect a spaceship to return to a home location after each trip when you consider the sheer size of the 'space' it's supposed to be exploring? The explorers would spend more time in transit to home port and outbound than in actual exploration. And the starships weren't exactly cut off from Starfleet. Subspace radio, although (relatively) slow, still provided some communication, and supposedly some authority and direction, from the big shots at U.F.of P. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 08:51 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Sense of touch... I want to vouch for Chris Anderson when he talks of Covenant's loss of the sense of touch. I was in a car crash recently and took a lot of facial damage. As a result there are areas on my face that may never get their feeling back, and it is a real constant annoyance. Even with this example I cannot imagine having to experience it over my entire body. We are talking some serious problems here. I find Tom to be very good a handling the situation. Many lepers do just sit and rot because they cannot take the mental anguish from both the world and the people in it. At least Tom learns that no matter what, no matter how bad it gets, you *have* to fight back. I learned that in junior high, but that's another story. By the way, I am trying to talk my girlfriend into trying to decimate me, but not in the original latin meaning. Sounds like fun. Thanks for the idea, Jeff. I agree about the Ewoks though. Kill 'em all. I cite the "too cute" ordinance. Oh, and three cheers for Saul Jaffe for managing this horrible semi-coherent mess into something readable. Bravo to a job well done, and, like the lady said, "Don't stop!" Jon Pugh PS Short stories: For some funny and thoughtfull stuff check out Harlan Ellison's (not him again) I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream. There is a lot of humourous SF in there, along with the classic, A Boy and His Dog. ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!acsgjjp@topaz.arpa (Jim Poltrone) Subject: Re: The passing of James Doohan Date: 12 Jul 85 17:29:23 GMT > I heard on the way in to work this morning that Jimmy > Doohan, known and loved by us as Commander Montgomery Scott, Chief > Engineering Officer of the U.S.S. Enterprise, passed away > yesterday due to a sudden, massive heart attack. Rest In Peace > Jimmy, we'll miss ye. > Mike Stalnaker Well, after scouring the last few day's worth of newspapers, and watching the 11 o'clock news last night, I haven't heard *anything* regarding James Doohan. There wasn't even anything on Entertainment Tonight (which is probably taped well in advance). But if it wasn't true, why would it be posted? Now is a perfect time to say that the characters in Star Trek are not immortal. As the saying goes, "All good things have to come to an end". Spock was only brought back because "the people demanded it". The Enterprise can't last forever. And someday, Captain Kirk will have to face death himself -- for the final time. If he truly is dead, he will certainly be missed. And what is going to happen to the rest of Star Trek IV? (No, I haven't been living under a rock the past week. And the Buffalo media is not as bad as it might seem to be.) Jim Poltrone uucp: [decvax,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!acsgjjp ARPAnet, CSnet: acsgjjp%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY BITNET: ACSGJJP@SUNYABVA ------------------------------ From: dolqci!mike@topaz.arpa (Mike Stalnaker) Subject: Re: RETRACTION!!!!!! The passing of James Doohan Date: 11 Jul 85 10:38:40 GMT I don't know whether I was half asleep, and misunderstood what the radio was saying, or if the station I was listening to made an error, or if I hit a major Space-Time Anamoly, or what, but I was 100% wrong about this. (Thank Goodness). I apolgize most humbly to all you netters who saw this. Ye Gads, I wish I knew what happened.....sigh.... Mike Stalnaker UUCP:{decvax!decuac,cbosgd,seismo}!dolqci!mike AT&T:202-376-6245 USPS:601 D. St. NW, Room 7122, Washington, DC, 20213 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jul 85 2259-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #264 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 13 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 264 Today's Topics: Book - Cherryh & DeChancie & A Request, Films - Day of the Dead & Charles Gray, Music - SF in Music (2 msgs), Television - Time Travel Special, Miscellaneous - Alien Visitors (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Jul 85 20:16 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Re: C. J. Cherryh's CHANUR'S VENTURE CHANUR'S VENTURE has been in print since mid-spring, but was retitled THE KIF STRIKE BACK. The hardcover was published by Phantasia Press. Those waiting for paperback will have to wait, probably until winter, for the DAW paperback. Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Fri 12 Jul 85 02:47:22-CDT From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: DeChancie's STARRIGGER series Among the Things that Make an SF Book a Good Read... "Sense of wonder" is fine, but I'm not sure that's a good description for a certain quality some SF has, of evoking a sense of reality for the utterly unreal. For instance, instead of just saying the air on an alien planet is breathable-- "There is nothing like the first breath of alien atmosphere, no matter how near to Terran normal it is. The weird odors are most unsettling. Strange trace gases never meant for human olfactory systems tiptoe across your nasal membranes in spiked shoes. At best, you gag and choke and cough. At worst, you swoon and wake up with an assist mask slapped over your face, if you're lucky. But the atmosphere of Goliath wasn't all that bad. It carried a whiff of iodine on a stench of decayed fruit, a strange combination to say the least, but the fruity smell masked the medicinal one enough to make it bearable. There wasn't a fruit tree in sight. On the bad side, there was a trace of a nose-tickling element, an irritant of some kind that kitchy-kooed the sinuses maddeningly close to the sneeze-point without getting them over the hump." That's from John DeChancie's STARRIGGER, an "interplanetary trucking" story, believe it or not! (Well, there's an interplanetary trucking filk song, so why not a novel?) I enjoyed it thoroughly. But be warned-- like PRIDE OF CHANUR, even though it stands alone okay, it has a sequel RED LIMIT FREEWAY which ends just as much a cliff-hanger as CHANUR'S VENTURE. If you're the strong-willed type, get 'em both but hold off on reading RED LIMIT FREEWAY until the next (final?) book in the series comes out. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 85 17:10 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #254 >>On the subject of controlling time... Alan Taylor's note jogged my memory of a book I read somewhere back in the dim recesses of my youth: it was called WHERE WERE YOU LAST PLUTERDAY? and it still remains one of the funniest thihngs I have ever laid eyes on. The plot involved a young (and very poor) journalist who meets a young (and very rich) heiress. The results are predictable-- they fall madely in love and agreee to meet at the statue in the park. "When?" he says, as she is driving off. "Next Pluterday," she replies, "at noon." (Or something like that. It was a long time ago.) Our hero is so enthralled at the prospect of meeting her again that, for the moment, he fails to realize that he is as in the dark about Pluterdays as we are. Soon, though, the situation is brought home to him and goes about investigating. To make a long story short, Pluterday is an extra day that falls between Saturday and Sunday of every week. Most people never see it, however, because we waste so much time during the week that w have to spend all day Pluterday just catching up-- thus we never notice it. (So, it's not long on science....) The extremely rich, however, not only can save massive amounts of time by being able to have all the modern conveniences, but they can also afford to buy into a very exclusive club (the details are fuzzy in my memory) which allows them to accumulate credit for time saved and "spend" it all on Pluterday. The rest of the story involves our hero's attempts to get into Pluterday and involve such fun as going back in time, writing the Bible (under an assumed name, of course,) and then coming back to the future being filthy rich (It is the all time best-seller, after all.) I'm afraid I don't remember the author, although I do remember that he was European and that the boohad been translated. Maybe even eastern European, but that's a long shot. Another, even longer, shot says that the book was published by dell sometime pre-1975. I found it at a garage sale, but somewhere or other I got the idea that it was a fairly rare book, so good luck. I'd be interested in hearing from anybody who has read it. Finally, just to feed the fires, I've just about finished Stephen Donaldson's DAUGHTER OF REGALS & OTHER TALES, and I find it almost superb. I liked but didn't love the Covenant stuff (I take that back, I loathed the second set,) but these are good. The writing style is several exponential powers better than the Unbeliever stuff (I only had to gt my Dictionary out once! for the whole book!!!) The stories are well crafted with a few surprise endings that are in the BEST Donaldson style. I loved the story "Unworthy of the Angel." A lot of this is more fantasy than SF, but there are exceptions. I had given up on Donaldson before WHITE GOLD WIELDER, but this renews my hopes. Chris Miller Miller.pasa Chris Miller:XSIS-AI:Xerox ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) Subject: Re: Day of the Dead review (not really) Date: 10 Jul 85 18:36:33 GMT That movie sounds pretty bad -- but I wanted to quickly add that there will be Yet Another Dead Movie coming out soon that looks like a pretty funny satire of the whole Dead scene. It's called _Return_of_the_Dead_ and (I think) includes Dan Obannon among the people who put it together. You see, there are these punks in this graveyard... and well, uhm I guess I should not go into any detail right now. Just thought I'd let you know. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 13:20 pst From: askme%e.mfenet@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Helicopters... Someone asked if they really do have police helicopters cruising the streets in California. The answer is yes. It seems to keep the criminals on their toes if nothing else. Actually they work best during foot chases. Try to double back on the cops chasing you with a searchlight sweeping the area. It will probably help breed sneakier crooks. Evolution in action? As for the narrator in Rocky Horror, Charles Grey, he was in some Bond flicks, but he didn't play Q, he was the dreaded Ernst Stravos Blofeld! Granted, I can't spell, but I know a face. Anybody want to produce the complete Blofeld list? I know Donald Pleasance was in You Only Live Twice and Grey was in Diamonds Are Forever. Blofeld wasn't in Casino Royale (probably a good thing). Telly Savalas was in George Lazenbee's attempt, which was the first book, On Her Majesty's Secret Service. But, gosh, I can't remember the rest. Anyone really into it? And I too noticed From Here to Eternity, but was too busy laughing to formulate a response. It reminds me of a radio contest I heard where they play clips from an old movie and you have to come up with the name. Someone came up with From Here to Internity. The DJ was trying hard not to laugh as he asked the guy if he was sure for the third time. Ah well, we all make mistakes. Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: ecrcvax!snoopy@topaz.arpa (Sebastian Schmitz) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 11 Jul 85 16:38:08 GMT How about: Virtually all the tracks on ELO's album "Time" Alan Parsons Project: I, Robot (from Album of the same name) Queen : '39 (from the Album "A Night at the Opera") Queen: Machines World (From the Album "The Works") Eurythmics: 1984 Soundtrack Queen: Flash Gordon Soundtrack Kraftwerk: Computerworld Tangerine Dream: Alpha Centauri Just to name a few. I'm sure that if I look through my records more carefully then I'll find more. Incidentally the Tangerine Dream Album mentioned is instrumental, but listen to the track called "Sunrise in the Third System" and you'll know what I mean. Love, Sebastian (Snoopy) \!mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy ------------------------------ From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 11 Jul 85 21:56:18 GMT Alan%DCT.AC.UK%DUNDEE.AC.UK@ucl-cs.ARPA writes: >I've been following SF-LOVERS for about 9 months now and I've seen >many forms of SF discussed with the exception of one which I find >surprising. Nobody ever seems to talk about music, either its SF >content or the influences it may have had on some piece of SF >writing. Hear, hear!! And let us not forget the Moody Blues: "To Our Children's Children's Children" is a fine album, and it seems to me to have been the result of a deliberate attempt to write score and libretto for Olaf Stapledon's deep (and slightly ponderous) novel, _The_Star_Maker_. (Has anyone heard for sure?) The opening cut from the album is also an outstanding attempt to capture on media the auditory sensations of a major launch vehicle ascent (Saturn V or Proton). >What does everyone else think ? There seems no reason to me why >words and music are less valid as Sci-Fi than words and paper or >words and acting. I concur. And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One such might be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_. Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 85 19:01:48 PDT (Friday) From: Morrill.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Time Travel TV Special I didn't find "Time Travel: Fact, Fiction and Fantasy" very interesting, it was obviously just a promo for the movie "Back to the Future". The most informative, interesting and entertaining show I've ever seen on Time was an episode of Nova entitled "It's About Time", hosted by Dudley Moore. It presented some very interesting ideas as to what time is, what it's made of, where it came from and where it's going. If anybody in the Palo Alto area is interested, I've got a copy of it on VHS. Anybody know of some more high quality time shows? D. Toby ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Re: what the Visitors came for Date: 8 Jul 85 07:50:00 GMT The Idea that an advanced alien race would come to Earth (or anyhere else for that matter) is not as preposterous as it sounds. Isaac Asimov wrote a book in which the plot traced an expedition from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water. This was no small task for the Martians. For the "Visitors" it would be quite a bit easier. It has also been suggested that Jupiter would make a nice fuel stop for interstellar ships leaving or entering the Solar system. Why Jupiter? It would be easier to go and get hydrogen/ water from Jupiter than to lift it off Earth. Now, extrapolate a little. The "Visitors" did not EXPECT that Earth would present any difficulties. Compared to Visitor technology, Earth is still in the dark ages (by about fifty years.) Thus, it would be easier to come to Earth and lift the water out of the gravity well than to synthesize mass quantities of it from Jupiter or another gas giant. First, the Oxygen would have to be shipped to Jupiter. Then it would be combined with the refined hydrogen raked of the atmosphere of Jupiter. Then we ship the whole mess out of Jupiter's gravity well, all several hundred G's of it, and send it to 'The Home Planet.' It would be easier just to lift it out of Earth's gravity well on gravitic jets, which the Visitors use regularly. Especially if we assume that the natives are not going to put up any resistance. After they did, the series turned into a grudge match between Dianna and the Resistance. An intelligent commander would have cut her losses and left, either to get reinforcements and do the invasion right, or to go on to greener pastures. Then there is the matter of food. The Visitors ... Look, they were supposed to come from Rigel. From now on, they're Rigellians... The Rigellians are a carnivorous race. Not omnivorous like Man, but Carnivorous. Vegetable matter is not digested well and they avoid it because it tastes lousy. Similar to the arguments against soyburgers. Now, since the Rigellians 1) expect Earthies to have brains on the order of cattle, 2) like red meat for dinner, 3) have a fresh water problem, 4) assume Earth technology to be just hitting the Bronze Age, and 5) have a relatively unlimited power (gravitic) drive, why won't they come to an alien planet for food and drink? This brings us to the moral issues. First, who are we to assume that slavery is a natural stage in a race's development. Relatively few species on Earth have social hierarchies similar to slavery, and very few have any past the mother feeding her young stage. Most of the non-mammals ignore they're young, and only pay attention to other members of their kind when the other member poses a direct threat. So we should not assume that slavery will even occur to them. Two, the Rigellians have conquered other planets before. They may have slaves coming out they're ears on the home planet! Three, the Rigellian society is spartan and militaristic in nature. The thought of having a personal servant could be an insult to their honor. Four, living, intelligent beings use up food, air, space (both in shipment and while working,) and WATER. Now, I think we can discount using un-intelligent animals as slaves. Having slaves would take up valuble natural resources which are already in short supply. The one thing that is surprising about "V" is that the rulers on Rigel left Dianna in charge for so long, and that the NBC producers left it on the air so long. With good scripts, the show could have been excellent. As it is, it should be put out of our misery. orstcs/richardt ------------------------------ From: ur-laser!tomk@topaz.arpa (Tom Kessler) Subject: Re: what the Visitors came for Date: 12 Jul 85 14:31:15 GMT You don't get the water Hydrogen etc. to make water from Jupiter. You get it from the moons where there is very little gravity to overcome. Tom Kessler {allegra |seismo }!rochester!ur-laser!tomk Laboratory for Laser Energetics 250 East River Road Rochester, New York 14623 Phone: (716)- 275 - 5101 ------------------------------ From: pegasus!naiman@topaz.arpa (Ephrayim J. Naiman) Subject: Re: what the Visitors came for Date: 12 Jul 85 13:43:23 GMT > Isaac Asimov wrote a book in which the plot traced an expedition > from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water. Wasn't that Saturn ? Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths:[ihnp4,allegra,mtuxo,maxvax,cbosgd,lzmi]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 85 16:48:47 EDT From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: advanced races visiting earth While I agree with most of the arguments supporting the silliness of a V-like visit to Earth, one argument needs to be stepped on. The disadvantage of fighting the locals would be negligible for a race crossing between stars. A couple of you seem to have gotten caught believing a man on horseback would live 20 seconds while being chased by an armed attack craft. No advanced race could possibly have such dismal weapons. Nor would they manage an invasion so pitifully. Diana really must be in charge for political reasons. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Jul 85 2323-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #265 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 14 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 265 Today's Topics: Books - Sturgeon, Miscellaneous - Alien Visitors & Problems with SF Critics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 12 Jul 85 03:52:57-PDT From: William "Chops" Westfield Subject: sf love stories... I can't stand it anymore. Ted Sturgeon wrote any number of SF love stories. the following come immediatly to mind: Case and the Dreamer When you love enough, When you care enough. A touch of strange. If all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister. the touch of your hand etc, etc. try any Sturgeon short story collection. billW ------------------------------ From: leadsv!sas@topaz.arpa (Scott Stewart) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get... Date: 9 Jul 85 17:58:37 GMT franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >>From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford >>1) If you're running out of water, and you don't have the >>resources to reclaim it or manufacture it, then you've only one >>option open to you: go get some more! And believe me, you'll go >>whatever distance it takes to get it! > > The problem is that there are *much* easier ways to get water. As > an obvious example, there is considerably more water in the rings > and moons of Saturn than on the surface of the Earth. It's > frozen, but that hardly matters. > > Even more directly, water is made from hydrogen and oxygen, which > are two of the most common elements in the universe. It takes a > lot less energy to make water than it does to cross interstellar > space. But we must remember that the Visitors wanted more than Earth's water. They were running out of food as well. Now maybe Earth was the nearest planet they could find that had food they liked. It's quite possible that we could have given them plenty of rats and bugs to take home and raise for food, but maybe we humans were a special delicacy for the very rich. Also, I remember Martin explaining to Donovan once that the Visitor's leader was similar to our Hitler. Neither needed a war for their society to survive, but wanted the glory of conquest. Therefore the Leader didn't care about a war, or the cost of a war. He was power hungry. I too liked the first mini-series. I believe an article I read once said that _V_ was based on the Nazi of World War II. I saw this in the first mini-series clearly, the use of a group of people who could be a threat to the regime as scapegoats who must be destroyed, martial law, and the Youth Core to indoctrinate the youth of the society. And the use of lizards as the Visitors I think was used for shock. What creatures do we think of as most repulsive, (Reptiles) and what better way to make the need to defeat the Visitors more expedient, yet least likely for the population to believe. The first mini-series ended to soon for me, since nothing had been resolved. The second mini-series I still liked. We finally win over the evil lizards. Even though the end was hokey. Why couldn't Elizabeth just be a super intellectual. It seems completely feasible that she could have stopped the ship from self destructing by breaking the computer security system and deactivating the bomb, instead of the fancy hokus-pokus trick. After all, she had been on the mother ship for some time learning the computer, and was supposed to be very bright. The ending was dumb! Now comes the series. Why? The Visitors had been defeated. Why shouldn't they just crawl home. The series was doomed from the start. How long can you keep an audience interested in a war when neither side gains any real headway. And how can a bunch of Earthlings with only automatic weapons stand up to all those lasers. In the mini-series, the resistance at least got hold of the Visitor's weapons and used them. But suddenly, they can't use lasers anymore. And what about the Visitor's voices? The one thing I liked about the whole thing in general was that you were never sure which of our heros might live through any particular battle. We get to know each member of the resistance, and then one or two get knocked of. Most shows, our heros never die, no matter what the odds are. Of course, our main heros always pull through, but even some of the secondary heros, and not the peripheral heros died, like Martin, Elias, and Elizabeth's Grandfather. Our heros weren't always one dimensional and some grew and changed. Relationships grew, were tested, and some blossomed. Even the bad guys had varying motives, from vegeance, to loyalty, to personal power. The bad guys spent about as much time fighting themseleves as they did us. And was Kyle's Dad a good or bad guy? Kyle and his father hated each other, yet loved each other, and we were able to see both facets of their relationship. I glad they found a good explanation for not being able to use the Red Dust anymore. Then we would really have a boring war. But the Earth's Eco-system, which helped to stop the lizards the first time, was their hope the second. Another use of the dust and Mankind might kill himself. I personally liked some assets of the entire series (mini-series and weakly), mostly the character's, except Elizabeth's hokey powers. But I feel the main flaw with the weakly series was the plotlines. Each weak we saw our conflict build for about 50 minutes and then get solved in five, leaving five for final resolve (counting commercial time) or else the conflict built up in about 15 minutes and the rest wast spent solving it. There just wasn't enough balance to conflict/resolve ratio. Too many hokey escapes and solutions. We were just to outclassed and had to rely on some mysterious magic mumbo-jumbo from Elizabeth, another alien friend, or lucky break. I think too much was going on in the story for a one hour TV show to handle. That's why the mini-series were more succesful. I hope the books would also be more succesful, but I've only read the first one so I can't say. Scott A. Stewart LMSC ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION CRITICS TODAY Date: 27 Jun 85 17:46:30 GMT THE PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION CRITICS TODAY By Steven Brust "Lift your heads out of the sf ghetto, people..." -- William Ingogly "We have made of our ghetto a shining city on the hill." -- Martin Schaffer We have now had several installments of what appears to be an effort to make a serious critique of today's science fiction, and several equally serious efforts to respond to the above. For those of us who are pleased to consider SF as literature the discussions have been entertaining, amusing, and thought- provoking. Messiers Tucker and Ingogly have both stated that they like science-fiction. It is good they said it. Had they not, I would be wondering why people with the opinions: A) There is no good writing in science-fiction, and B) I only read good writing, are contributing to a forum called sf-lovers. But they both said they like it, and I, for one, will take them at their word. All of the contributions from these two gentlemen have been, in my opinion, well thought-out and intelligent. As someone who disagrees, I feel an obligation to do my best to state my disagreements in some rational way. It would be pleasant to spend my time discussing the examples that various of us have raised as good and bad, but I think also pointless. That I find it amazing that anyone could seriously consider Truman Capote as good a writer as Roger Zelazny says something about me, but very little about the merits of the writers in question. That Mr. Ingogly can put forward excellent standards of comparison for writing (for the most part; there are flaws here, too), yet believe, as he evidently does, that Peter DeVries compares well to Gene Wolfe says a great deal about him, but again, nothing about either writer. It would be more of value to discuss, in general (perhaps I'll even pretend I'm Hegel and bend over backwards to avoid examples), what makes good writing. I don't expect agreement to result, as we are clearly dealing with completely different approaches. All of the above is actually a long-winded introduction to a defense of my statement that most of the best writers today are working in sf. I mean it. I did say, "not all", and I agree with the contributor who pointed out mysteries and children's books as places to find good writing. And yes, without naming names, I am sufficiently well-read to believe that my opinions have some validity. But I did mean it. I do not hold that opinion because I read sf, rather, I read sf because I think that's where the good writers are. I did not come to this conclusion without giving most other genres (including the literary genre) what I felt to be a fair trial. Yet this opinion differs from that of many literary critics. Do I hold the opinion, then, that the type of literary criticism we've been seeing is invalid for science-fiction? Well, sort of. It would be more accurate, however, to say that I feel the approaches of many literary critics are invalid for any genre at all. Why are so many literary critics down on sf? I'll tell you a story. Some time ago I found out that the University of Minnesota had the top-rated journalism school in the country. Some time later, I found out that this was because most of the people who rated journalism schools were U or Mn Alumni. So it is with literary critics and the literary genre. At least, with many of them. There are as many schools of criticism as there are of writing, and Messiers Tucker and Ingogly are to be praised for subscribing (as far as I can tell) to among the least obnoxious of them--at least, neither of them have started explaining that Gore Vidal is a great writer because he hasn't come to terms with his masculinity or something. (Note -- if anyone is not familiar with ISSUES AT HAND and MORE ISSUES AT HAND by William Athling (also known as James Blish) I recommend them.) But enough prelude; it is time I put my mouth where my money is and explain why I have such a high opinion of so many sf writers compared to so many writers in other, and most the particularly the "literary" genres. There was a brief period when large segments of the population (I'm speaking of the U. S.) were literate, yet the mass entertainment media had not been invented. During this time, it became necessary for authors to tell stories, in order to appeal to those who just wanted to be entertained and had no patience for intellectual depth. Writers were forced, by the harshest economic necessities, to simultaneously appeal to the lowest common denominator of their readers, and still write with the depth craved by the intelligentsia. Among the examples of writers from this period is Mark Twain. With the arrival of radio, talkies, and television, large sections of the literary community abandoned story telling as a necessary part of fiction. If you want to place this historically, read Joyce's PORTRAIT OF THE ARTIST AS A YOUNG MAN, then read ULYSSES, then start working from either end toward the middle. Today, many writers feel that it is unnecessary to tell a story. Other writers feel that ALL that is necessary is to tell a story. The latter group can be found in the best-seller genre, the former can be found in the literary genre. Literary critics, almost without exception (Ciardi is one exception -- maybe) belong to the first camp. And me? Well, I am more likely to be impressed by a good story with enough depth to give me something to think about than by writing which tries to make up for its lack or obscurity of plot by throwing in a car that has Shakespeare's birthday for a license number. Science fiction writers--the best of them--believe that a good story is necessary and not sufficient. That good English language values (ie, the ability to write a sentence) are necessary, that the story should be driven by characters who are real, three-dimensional human beings, and that there should be a strong theme without (as Terry Carr put it) a Message. I will put up with cheap entertainment that is nothing more than a story. I will NOT put up with the pretentions of those who feel themselves above the need to entertain me. Let us remember that the paintings of Van Gogh, even some of the more disturbing ones, can be appreciated by someone with little or no understanding of art. He was willing to talk to us, not at us. What else makes good writing? Largely, I think, the ability to transcend its genre (someone said, quite correctly, that ALL writing today is genre writing). Billie Holliday can be appreciated by people who don't like jazz. Beethoven by those who don't like classical music, Stan Rogers by those who don't like folk, Dave Van Ronk by those who don't like Blues, the Grateful Dead by those who don't like rock. In writing, Alexander Dumas may be enjoyed even by those who don't like nineteenth century romanticism. James Clavell(SHOGUN), for all his (many!) flaws as a writer, goes beyond the best-seller genre. Robert B. Parker (EARLY AUTUMN) goes beyond mysteries, Ken Kesey (SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION) beyond the literary genre. These people give us something of value beyond satisfying the particular requirements of their subfield. It is this "something of value" that I look for. It is writing that challenges me, that makes me both feel and think, that sends me away both entertained and with the knowledge that I have grown. When Zelazny is at his worst--just turning out a book to pay the bills (CHANGELING is a good example)-- I still come away with something to think about, a way to look at people--and myself--that hadn't occurred to me before. And I certainly come away entertained. So much for my hopes to avoid examples. But, yes, I think Sturgeon was a great writer. So was Blish. So is John M. Ford, and Gene Wolfe, and Robin Mckinley, and Robert B. Parker, and, yes, Roger Zelazny, and Pamela Dean, and Ken Kesey, and Jane Yolen. These people believe that a good story, while not sufficient, is necessary. Indeed, there is much that is bad in science fiction. But the problem isn't that Heinlein is doing so well--damnit, he INVENTED many of the concepts that are now standard in the field. It isn't Asimov and Clarke, either--none of these are good writers, but they have contributed to making the genre a medium in which much that is valuable can flourish. If you are looking for writers to pick on, look for the ones who could have been more than hacks, but refused to challenge themselves-- Piers Anthony, Alan Dean Foster, even Andrew Offut. Or the ones who seem bound and determined to make sure they NEVER accomplish anything either new or with any literary merit: Robert Asprin and others. (See NOTE below). But don't throw the Heechee out the Warp Drive. Wait for Megan Lindholm's new book, or read Nancy Kress, and rejoice that there is a place where those who are willing to tell stories with good literary values have a way to enrich us with the slices of their lives they are sharing. -- Steven Brust NOTE: The above statements are opinions. It shouldn't be necessary to say this, but I really DON'T want to offend those who enjoy Anthony or Foster or Offut or Asprin. I believe what I said, but there is no reason you have to. -- SKZB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jul 85 1706-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #266 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 266 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Cherryh & Gardner & McQuay & Varley, Films - Dykstra & Back to the Future (2 msgs), Music - SF and Music (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Problems in SF & Time Control (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To: "Randall B. Neff" Subject: Re: Brin's super creatures Date: 13 Jul 85 01:40:13 PDT (Sat) From: Jerry Sweet >In Startide Rising, the Dolphins are uplifted by increasing their >intelligence. But, they can only function with the technology >supplied by humans. The flaw with the Dolphins is that uplift >should have included converting flippers to hands. I recall a passage in the book about some finger-like extensions on the dolphins that were scheduled to become real fingers at some point. One of the dolphins even remarks on them, thinking that they look ugly. >The Dolphins are basically helpless without humans (or chimps) >around, or without the human provided technology. A group of >abandoned humans can rebuild their technology (ie Swiss Family >Robinson or Mysterious Island), but abandoned Dolphins are just >wise-cracking swimming mammals. Presumably when the Dolphin uplift is complete, they will be capable of fending for themselves. Doesn't Brin mention some other handicapped race that is entirely dependent on Library technology, either in Startide Rising or in Sundiver? This race sometimes halts human vessels and demands "tolls" of whale songs. I can't find this passage right off hand, so this may not be a reliable recollection. Actually, I agree that it would be best to be "paranoid" in designing a sentient race; civilization might fall, and a handicapped race might lose its sentiency without its technological crutches. Larry Niven writes about these kinds of problems (ref the Bandernatch and the Grogs). -jns ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 06:59:23 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: The Kif Strike Back (warning: mini-spoiler) *** WARNING: MINI-SPOILER AT END *** > From: Andrew Sigel > CHANUR'S VENTURE has been in print since mid-spring, but was > retitled THE KIF STRIKE BACK. The hardcover was published by > Phantasia Press. Those waiting for paperback will have to wait, > probably until winter, for the DAW paperback. NOT SO! CHANUR'S VENTURE was the 2nd book in the series (after THE PRIDE OF CHANUR); THE KIF STRIKE BACK is the 3rd book (whose title was thought to be CHANUR'S REVENGE). I just finished TKSB this weekend; for those who read the first two books, it's a must. I found it better than CV, maybe even better than TPOC. There's only one problem: *** MINI-SPOILER *** SHE DID IT TO US AGAIN! At the end of CHANUR'S VENTURE, the action stopped at a crucial point with the words "TO BE CONTINUED in CHANUR'S REVENGE". In THE KIF STRIKE BACK, things were flying fast and heavy, when I found myself on the last page with the words "TO BE CONTINUED in CHARUR'S HOME- COMING". What is this, adventure serials? Once was irritating, but twice in a row is damned inconsiderate! marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 16:38 EDT From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: Craig Shaw Gardner To: steiner@RUTGERS.ARPA > From: Jonathan Ostrowsky >> Dave Steiner asked: >>Does anyone know anything about a Craig Shaw Gardner? I read a >>story of his in Flashing Swords #5. It was about a sorcerer named >>"Ebenezum". I found it a rather amusing story and have been >>looking for other things by him but have never seen anything. >>Anybody know if he has written anything else? >Craig is an old friend, although we haven't been in touch very much >the last few years. He's been writing for over a decade; he's >published fiction in a couple of magazines and a few anthologies, >film reviews, and SF book reviews. I've heard that he's recently >signed a multibook contract with a major SF publisher. > >Craig is a terrific guy, very funny. He goes to a lot of cons and >serves on panels at most of them, so you might run into him if you >go to any yourself. > >I'll give him a call and get a list of his fiction credits for you. I finally spoke with Craig last night. He was happy to report that Ace is going to publish three Ebenezum novels: "A Malady of Magicks", "A Multitude of Monsters", and "A Night in the Netherhells". I don't know exactly when the books will start appearing. As for his other credits, he's published 15 stories previously, most of them horror. A couple of the stories are "Bar and Grill" in the anthology "Afterwar" and "Overnight Guest" in the "Midnights" anthology. Still to appear is "The Man Who Loved Water" in "Shadows 8". In addition, Craig has written a large number of book reviews for the Washington Post and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He has also written (but not yet sold) a Billy the Kid western novel. (It turns out he is a descendant of Billy the Kid's stepfather, which might explain the book.) ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 85 14:14 EDT From: ------ Operator Subject: Mike McQuay I would like to recommend the following books by Mike Mcquay: _Lifekeeper_ _Jitterbug_ _Pure_Blood_ _Escape_From_New_York_ All of these books take place After The Fall Of Civilization As We Know It. While I am not prepared to review or critique these books at this time, I can recommend them as entertainment on a rainy Sunday afternoon. The _Lifekeeper_ is a computer which governs Earth's militaristic societies, whose precept is that war is the the greatest human endeavour. In _Jitterbug_ the Arabs have taken over and hold the world hostage through economic control and pestilence. _Pure_Blood_ has acid rain, genetically engineered lifeforms, brother vs brother in the struggle for civilization, and a sequel in the works. _Escape_From_New_York was made into a movie starring a scroungy Kurt Russell which managed to retain some of the book's atmosphere. The President's plane has been shot down by terrorists over the penal colony of New York City and only Russell's character, a tough-guy loner on the wrong side of the law, can get him out. (Aside: I always liked this character and hope to hear more about him.) The urban atmosphere in _Jitterbug_ and _Escape_From_New_York is gritty and dismal and all of the books are violent and bleak. Not much hope for the future here. But I read these like my friend the english teacher reads gothic romances, secretly. Jessie@ncsc ------------------------------ Date: Sun 14 Jul 85 09:52:23-PDT From: Stuart.Cracraft@isi-vaxa, x144@isi-vaxa, Subject: Wither Varley? I used to be a great fan of John Varley's. This corresponded with the time that he was writing and publishing his '8 Worlds' series. Since then, I've been extremely disappointed with his Titan/Wizard/Demon series and somewhat disappointed with his Millenium novel. The first is greatly overbloated. The second is merely slightly confused. Does anyone know what his upcoming works will be? I heard that his publishers and agents pushed him into writing the Titan series before he was ready artistically. Stuart ------------------------------ From: mmintl!tedi@topaz.arpa (Ted Ives) Subject: Dykstra, Star Wars, etc. Date: 11 Jul 85 13:41:15 GMT Regarding the comment on Leeper's review of Lifeforce:John Dykstra did indeed do the special effects for Star Wars-he was, in fact, in charge of the entire team (this is when George Lucas' famous company, Industrial Light and Magic ,was born). He originally worked UNDER Douglas Trumbull on 2001; Trumbull is usually credited with just about everything as far as Special FX goes in that movie. Also, Trumbull, NOT Dykstra, did the special FX for Star Trek- The Motion Picture. Since Industrial Light & Magic has done both STII-TWOK and STIII-TSFS, I assume Dykstra was involved in those. -Ted Ives pwa-b!mmintl!tedi ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: A Speculation on "Back to the Future" Date: 12 Jul 85 23:27:12 GMT Here's a topic me and some friends have been bandying about: What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from 1955? I think you have to break this into two lines of discussion, based upon social changes versus technology. Here's my ideas: From a technological point of view, advances now haven't been too suprising-- with a few notable exceptions. No one then guessed the impact of the miniaturization of computers would have; the idea of putting a computer in a washing machine! Similarly, the space program has travelled in a completely different direction than people expected, with the gain of suprising knowledge about planetary and galactic astrophysics. The two real suprises, though, are in biology and particle physics. Both of these fields have seen the advent of whole new fields. The whole notion of genetic engineering, for instance. Or (take a deep breath) quantum chromodynamics. The REALLY big changes have been social. Nobody expected the tremendous flux in almost every aspect of society; it's not just that things are massively different, it's that every 3 or 4 years, they are massively different. The world political situation would be simply incomprehensible. What we eat has changed radically; what we see on the TV even more so. So here's my apotheosis of the 1985 man: After pulling his "Light" gourmet frozen dinner out of the computerized microwave, he sits down to a tape of MTV videos. Any comments? [By the way, videos are possibly one of the most shocking things of all. Who would have guessed that people would pay to have Hallucinations and other dreams beamed into their houses?] Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Back to The Future (SPOILER) Date: 13 Jul 85 00:25:24 GMT I haven't read the book, but you didn't say anything about "book", so... > The one thing that bothered me about Back to the Future wasn't > that it made use of parallel universes but that it seemed to use > them wrong. What makes you say that it was supposed to be parallel universes? (Personally, I like applying Hogan's theory from Thrice Upon A Time.) In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 85 01:02:26 pdt From: k-9%ucbcory@Berkeley (David Riggle (who else?)) Subject: Re: SF and Music And while we're on the subject, where in the real **HARD SCIENCE** stories is music, or any of the arts? Except for "Green Hills of Earth" and another Heinlein story (the one about the geniuses on Mt. Shasta) whose title I can't remember, I have read no other works in which music or any other of the fine arts plays an important part. And those stories aren't particularly "hard" to my way of thinking. What is it? Are there no arts in the future? Will humanity grow out of the "humanities"? It seems the writers are even writing their own profession out of the future. Are the liberal and/or fine arts strictly fantasy material? Not serious or (heaven help us) macho enough? Too much gleaming steel and circuitry for a few wooden instruments? (Not high-tech enough, I suppose -- but why should not instruments continue to evolve with man? They have up to this point...) Excuse the ranting tone of this letter -- 'tis a subject too near a music-bachelor's heart for reason and calm -- after all, I'm being written out of a job! :-) Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!allen@topaz.arpa (John Allen) Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 13 Jul 85 01:24:32 GMT > And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging > conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of > written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One such might > be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, > _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_. > Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) One book that immediately comes to mind is _The_Songmaster_ by Orson Scott Card. If I remember correctly, _To_Name_a_Shadow_ by Ann Maxwell is also a good example of this. It's been awhile since I read this. John Allen Ohio State University (UUCP: cbosgd!osu-eddie!allen) (CSNet: allen@ohio-state) ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: a comment on the sf as literature discussion Date: 10 Jul 85 13:20:53 GMT ops@ncsc writes: >Listening to you all arguing among yourselves over what is good >literature, or how much more realistic the explosions in one movie >are over the explosions in another, or which author is more godlike >than another, or whether fantasy is as valid as hard science >fiction, or any of the other subjects you bicker over had me >wondering if any of you remember the wonder and the awe of >realizing that the things you read about in your treehouses and >under your covers by flashlight could actually be true and that one >day you could have a part in making them be true. I wonder how many >of you were as influenced in your lives by science fiction as I >have been in mine. We probably wouldn't be reading this newsgroup if we hadn't been strongly influenced by SF. But people are influenced by literature, music, and the other arts in different ways, and people approach their enjoyment of these things from different backgrounds and perspectives. What seems to be 'bickering' or 'arguing' to you is our approach to the enjoyment and understanding of SF; it's just as valid and enjoyable an approach to the genre as reading in a treehouse under covers by flashlight. Wonder and awe was enough for me when I was a teenager. Now that I'm an adult, I demand more from the literature I read. It's a matter of personal taste and experience, and my way of enjoying SF doesn't diminish yours or anyone else's in this group. If you don't care for criticism, skip over the critical discussions when you read the news. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Time control book Date: 10 Jul 85 02:38:00 GMT If you're looking for Time Control stories, you might want to look for the book "The Empire Of Time." I don't remember the author, but the cover had a train going into a tunnel with two lion statues on either side of the tunnel. One comic thing: the main headquarters for the crosstime empire was in 1985! orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 13:45 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Theory of Time... It's all rather simple (to a simple mind), Time is just natures way of keeping everything from happening at once. (Is there in truth no beauty?) Jon Pugh (Repeating things is my job) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jul 85 2107-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #267 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 267 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Lanier & Laumer, Films - James Bond Trivia, Miscellaneous - The Problem with SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 23:43:54 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Pluterday John Brunner wrote it, and it's the only thing of his I really liked besides The Traveller in Black, which is one of my favourite books of all time... Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 16:40:12 PDT From: Will Duquette Subject: RE: Juanita Coulson >Has anyone heard of two books (I think) written by Juanita Coulson >.... They are "Hiero's Journey" and "A Forsaken Hiero". To begin with, these excellent books were written by Sterling Lanier and not by Juanita Coulson (I have never read any of her books -- any comments on them?), and the titles are "Hiero's Journey" and "The Unforsaken Hiero". No, there are no other books out about Per Hiero Desteen at this point, though it is possible that Lanier is working on a new one. It took him about 8-10 years (I don't remember exactly) to get to the second one, so I wouldn't hold my breath. I believe the title "The Unforsaken Hiero" stems from the fact that Lanier finally got around to finishing it. The books have some interesting twists on psychic powers that I found quite interesting (different wavelengths, etc.). BTW, Lanier has written another book called "Menace Under Marswood" which was also a good time. Will Duquette ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Jul 85 21:23 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: "End as a Hero" (Keith Laumer) reviewed Micro-review I expected to be disappointed; I was. Not worth the money or the time. Real review "End as a Hero" bears a copyright date of 1985. The overleaf does not state (as is usually customary) that a portion of the story appeared in different form quite some time ago. "End as a Hero" was originally published as a short story in Galaxy Magazine (copyright date 1963). The version now in the stores consists of the original short story with minor modifications, plus 94 pages of new lead-in and about 10 pages of new wrap-up. The seams between the old and new material show... boy, do they show. The original material is all told in the first person; everything else is in the third person (the original material is inserted in the form of a "voluntary statement"). The original story had sufficient background information in its first few pages to give the reader a very good idea of what had been going on up to that point; this material remains unchanged, but duplicates (and sometimes appears to conflict with) some of the new lead-in writing. The new ending seems to be pretty much a tack-on to clean up a few loose ends and "explain" how the protagonist is going to get away with what he'd pulled at the end of the short story. Worse yet, the new material is less coherent than the original, and tends to wander. Commentary In a posting to this meeting that I read this week, someone (sorry, I'm too lazy to dig back and find out who) asked "What has happened to Laumer recently?" or some such. I wish I knew, and that it hadn't happened. I'm a Laumer fan from 'way back, and probably own most of what he's published. I find the quality of what he's written in the past five or ten years (from "The Ultimax Man" in '78 onwards) to be far poorer than his earlier writing. Much of what he's done recently seems to be weak reworking of earlier stories (this book being one example) or extensions of earlier series that lack much of the craftsmanship and fun of the originals (the latest "Retief" for one example; I've been afraid to pick up the latest O'Leary story). I believe "Star Colony" falls into the first category, but I honestly can't remember enough about its plot & characters to be certain. It looked for quite a while ('70 to '78, I think) as if Laumer had retired for good, and I kept wishing he'd write some more. Well, he's been doing so, and I find myself wishing that he'd stayed retired. Laumer's earlier stories tended to have a lot in common with one another (lone-wolf good guy gets thrown into an unexpected & hazardous situation, develops new powers or acquires new knowledge, has a rough time of it but wins through in the end). I generally found them well crafted, reasonably believable (except for the "Retief" stories, of course) and fun... certainly not "quality literature" in the sense of the recent network discussions, but well worth the read, and frequently worth rereading just for the halibut. I don't feel that his recent work (the last decade's worth) is any of the above. I keep buying in the hope that I've been wrong and that he still has a fine story or six in him, and a little voice keeps jeering in my ear, "There is no hope!" It's gonna be a long while before I buy another, 'less I see a very favorable review somewhere. Recommendation Don't buy the current publication of "End as a Hero" unless you've got three bucks (ridiculous!) to blow on 50 decent pages padded with 100 mediocre ones. Instead, try to find a used copy of "Nine by Laumer" (copyright 1967; I got mine for a buck). You'll find the original "End as a Hero" short, "Hybrid", "Dinochrome" (the original "Bolo" story, I believe), the eerie "A Trip to the City" (a.k.a. "It Could be Anything"; would have made a good Twilight Zone episode) and several others. Or, pick up almost anything Laumer wrote before 1970 (check the copyright dates to be sure); "A Trace of Memory" is back in print after a lapse of many years, and shows early Laumer at about his best. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 85 15:00:29 CDT (Sunday) From: Finch.dlos@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #263 In reply to LECIN@RU-BLUE.ARPA {Mijjil} trivia question: Blofeld's Full name is: Ernst Stavro Blofeld The name sticks in my mind because it has a certain rhythm. [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who responded with the same or similar information: Dave (Newman.pasa@Xerox) Leigh Ann Hussey (lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley) ] ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION CRITICS TODAY Date: 11 Jul 85 21:50:58 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >Messiers Tucker and Ingogly have both stated that they like >science-fiction. It is good they said it. Had they not, I would >be wondering why people with the opinions: A) There is no good >writing in science-fiction, and B) I only read good writing, are >contributing to a forum called sf-lovers. Where did you get this from my postings? They make it abundantly clear that I don't hold either position. I've explicitly stated (A) that there's good writing in all fictional genres, and (B) that I read all sorts of fiction. See my comments about the much-maligned Peter DeVries below, for example. Or my comments about Vladimir Nabokov's catholic tastes in a (much) earlier posting of mine. Criticism does not mean hatred. It doesn't even necessarily imply a mild distaste. When I was six, I sometimes thought my parents' criticisms meant they no longer loved me. I've since grown out of that opinion. I criticize much of what I read. I also continue reading it. >That I find it amazing that anyone could seriously consider Truman >Capote as good a writer as Roger Zelazny says something about me, >but very little about the merits of the writers in question. Just so no one thinks Steve is talking about me, I wasn't the one who called Mr. Capote a first-rate author. >That Mr. Ingogly can put forward excellent standards of comparison >for writing (for the most part; there are flaws here, too), yet >believe, as he evidently does, that Peter DeVries compares well to >Gene Wolfe says a great deal about him, but again, nothing about >either writer. My personal feeling is that Mr. DeVries is an underrated writer. He's the American equivalent of P. G. Wodehouse, another minor author of very funny books who I enjoy reading. I obviously read less-than-first rate fiction; that's one of the reasons I named Mr. DeVries. I DON'T recall comparing him directly to Gene Wolfe, so I believe you're misinterpreting me there. We all have peculiarities in the set of writers we enjoy reading, authors other people ignore or even scorn. Peter DeVries is one of my peculiarities. I'm sure you have them too, Steve. Even those of us with perfect taste have occasional lapses (oh, come on; where's your sense of humor? That's a JOKE, all you literal-minded terminal jockeys out there in netland...:-) >Why are so many literary critics down on sf? I'll tell you a >story. Some time ago I found out that the University of Minnesota >had the top-rated journalism school in the country. Some time >later, I found out that this was because most of the people who >rated journalism schools were U or Mn Alumni. So it is with >literary critics and the literary genre. At least, with many of >them. There are as many schools of criticism as there are of >writing, and Messiers Tucker and Ingogly are to be praised for >subscribing (as far as I can tell) to among the least obnoxious of >them Geez, at least my obnoxiousness is a MINOR character trait; I think I can deal with that ... :-) You paint a picture of the literary critical profession as being inbred; this is true. The SF field seems to me to be somewhat inbred, as well. This has nothing to do with the quality of thought or the validity of the ideas coming out of any given literary critic or SF writer. And your implication that criticism is by its very nature obnoxious "says something about you," to use your own phrase. You seem to have a hangup about criticism, or maybe about academics who make their living by talking about other people's writing. As you've said, there are many schools of criticism. And there are many types of people who write about fiction. There isn't a perfect consensus or standard in the literary community about quality in fiction or the desireability of plot, and saying there is one don't make it so. If you or other readers of this group have had bad experiences with fiction outside the SF genre, I'm sorry. I stand by my claims for 'literary' fiction and those who criticize fiction, and I still believe your claim that most of the best are writing in SF is way off the mark. >Today, many writers feel that it is unnecessary to tell a story. >Other writers feel that ALL that is necessary is to tell a story. >The latter group can be found in the best-seller genre, the former >can be found in the literary genre. Literary critics, almost >without exception (Ciardi is one exception -- maybe) belong to the >first camp. I think this is an unfair generalization, Steve. Take a look at the books reviewed in the New York Review of Books or the New York Times Book Review over the past year or two. There are authors and reviewers who believe plot has been taken as far as it can go, so they emphasize other things in fiction. But as you yourself have said, there are many different approaches to literary criticism. To writing, as well; you'll find many books reviewed by the litcrits in these newspapers that DO tell good stories. And what's Good Story to me isn't necessarily Good Story to you. Or maybe you know something the rest of us don't? Is there a canonical definition of Good Story other than what's engaging to some (maybe only one) of a book's readers? If there is, I've never seen it. Plot is a tool. It isn't fiction in its entirety. Consider Italo Calvino's "Invisible Cities," a book that some of us might call fiction. As Charlie Martin pointed out, it's metafiction to a certain extent: fiction about fiction. By pushing against the limits of our definition of what fiction is, Calvino is calling attention to the artificiality of a definition like 'fiction' or 'Good Story.' At the same time, he's extending the definition to include his book. At least some of us find that sort of writing engaging and (yes) enjoyable. There are as many ways to read as there are to write. And my claim is that "Invisible Cities" is a GOOD STORY; what's more, it's a Good Story that doesn't have a plot. Furthermore, my enjoyment of the qualities in Calvino's writing is probably as intense as the enjoyment you get from reading non-'literary' fiction. You might ask yourself if plotless books like Stanislaw Lem's "A Perfect Vacuum" and "Imaginary Magnitude" are (A) enjoyable (B) Good Stories. Or perhaps you're one of those who think less of Lem for his excursions into metafiction. >And me? Well, I am more likely to be impressed by a good story >with enough depth to give me something to think about than by >writing which tries to make up for its lack or obscurity of plot by >throwing in a car that has Shakespear's birthday for a license >number. And some of us might be amused by finding such a reference in a story. We all read for different reasons. Another comment: you're just plain wrong in claiming (as you seem to be) that most or all 'literary' fiction can be characterized by bankrupt plot and superficial cleverness. >Science fiction writers--the best of them--believe that a good >story is necessary and not sufficient. That good English language >values (ie, the ability to write a sentence) are necessary, that >the story should be driven by characters who are real, >three-dimensional human beings, and that there should be a strong >theme without (as Terry Carr put it) a Message. I find the same qualities in a lot of contemporary non-SF fiction, what you call 'literary' fiction. We're either reading totally different books or dealing with personal prejudices here. >I will put up with cheap entertainment that is nothing more than a >story. I will NOT put up with the pretentions of those who feel >themselves above the need to entertain me. Let us remember that >the paintings of Van Gogh, even some of the more disturbing ones, >can be appreciated by someone with little or no understanding of >art. He was willing to talk to us, not at us. Some art works on many levels. Some doesn't. There are interesting, rewarding, and entertaining works of art in both groups. This applies to 'literary' fiction as well as the field of painting. >It is this "something of value" that I look for. It is writing >that challenges me, that makes me both feel and think, that sends >me away both entertained and with the knowledge that I have grown. Guess what? We both read fiction for the same reasons. >Indeed, there is much that is bad in science fiction. But the >problem isn't that Heinlein is doing so well--dammit, he INVENTED >many of the concepts that are now standard in the field. It isn't >Asimov and Clarke, either--none of these are good writers, but they >have contributed to making the genre a medium in which much that is >valuable can flourish. I'd like to point out (again, to set the record straight) that I made the same comment in one of my postings. >If you are looking for writers to pick on, look for the ones who >could have been more than hacks, but refused to challenge >themselves-- Piers Anthony, Alan Dean Foster, even Andrew Offut... I'm sorry you and other people thought Mr. Tucker and I were 'picking' on their favorite authors. We all have personal favorites, Steve (I happen to like Peter DeVries and P. G. Wodehouse; they make me laugh). I have few illusions about mine, and I fully realize that many of my friends and acquaintances don't share my tastes. I also have been trained to approach literature critically, and I enjoy reading that way. There is good AND bad in all writing. I feel that my knowledge and appreciation of literature (including SF) is enhanced by approaching it this way; I certainly don't put down those who approach it in other fashions, and I apologize if any of my postings created that impression. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jul 85 2122-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #268 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 268 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker (2 msgs) & Sallis, Films - Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, Music - Music in SF (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - FTL Travel (2 msgs) & Alien Visitors (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcsaic!randy@topaz.arpa (randy groves) Subject: Re: Jack Chalker Date: 11 Jul 85 02:19:30 GMT franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >As far as I can tell, Chalker uses the *same* two ideas in every >book he writes: shape change and mind control/tyranny. He is >reasonably inventive in coming up with variations on these, but as >far as I am concerned, enough is enough. Not only that, but in the Lords of the Diamond tetralogy, he used almost exactly the same *TEXT* for about thirty pages. (... let's see, block copy from here to new passage, change the names ...) randy groves ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!randy ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Jack Chalker Date: 14 Jul 85 22:04:07 GMT >Not only that, but in the Lords of the Diamond tetralogy, he used >almost exactly the same *TEXT* for about thirty pages. (... let's >see, block copy from here to new passage, change the names ...) Ah, but in the Four Lords of the Diamond, it was *essential* that the text be exactly, or almost exactly, the same. (I found it interesting that he did change some of the text; I guess he believes that the physical substance making up a person affects (if not controls) that person's thoughts---a reasonable stand....) In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ From: sdcc3!valerie@topaz.arpa (Valerie Polichar) Subject: Have you ever heard of JAMES SALLIS? Date: 11 Jul 85 20:42:51 GMT If you have ever read anything by James Sallis, /please/ write to me! I am beginning to think he is just a figment of my imagination! He wrote a book called "A Few Last Words" which was published by MacMillan... Valerie Polichar sdcsvax!sdcc3!valerie ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" Date: 12 Jul 85 07:29:46 GMT "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" is the occasion for a very rare type of disappointment for me: the inevitable realization that not every film made by a great director is going to be a masterpiece. "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" is a good enough film, but it is not nearly as good as "The Road Warrior" or George Miller's segment of "The Twilight Zone". It's just a solid action film, not really anything special, and that disappoints me more than a full-blown artistic failure. The latter can be seen as overambition or merely a valiant effort that failed. A perfectly average film, though, suggests that maybe the director doesn't have a lot of juice in him, maybe he's shown us everything he has already. (For a good example of this contrast, compare "1941" and "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom". "1941" is definitely a failure, but it's a failure because Spielberg tried something different that just didn't work. "IJTOD" failed because Spielberg lazily tried to copy precisely what he had done before rather than do the real work of coming up with something new.) "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome", co-directed by Miller and George Ogilvie, is set in the same world as "Mad Max" and "The Road Warrior", but several years after the latter film. Mel Gibson, as Max, runs afoul of Auntie Entity, a powerful leader in Bartertown, a fairly vile trading village she has built up from nothing. Bartertown runs on energy controlled by Master-Blaster, a dwarf genius (Master) who rides a huge, brawny hulk of a fellow known as Blaster. Auntie Entity wants complete control of Bartertown, and she intends to use Max to get it. After a variety of plot twists, Max finds himself out in the desert where he meets a tribe of lost children who are expecting a messiah. Max involuntarily takes the role, leading to yet further complications. If the above description sounds a bit diffuse, there you have the major problem of "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome". Unlike "The Road Warrior", it doesn't have a clean plot line. Instead, it has incidents strungs together rather uncomfortably. The early part of the film is best. While not up to the previous films, it is crisply directed and has a sense of purpose. The latter half of the film is muddled and uncertain. We are given no sense at all that Max has any plan worth speaking of when he returns to Bartertown. We don't know what he wants to do, and he doesn't seem to, either. Even the final chase scene, which has its moments, doesn't have the clarity of the chase in "The Road Warrior". In that film, the chase was so perfectly constructed that every incident in it seemed both inevitably correct and crystal clear. The chase in this film doesn't hang together, nor is there the terrible sense of desperation present in "The Road Warrior". Hence, it just isn't as exciting. Mel Gibson also isn't as strong a presence as he was in either of the first two films. In those films, he really was the center of the story, the one who made things go. In this film, he seems more acted upon than acting. Neither is there the iron core previously present in the character. Part of this may be due to the fact that he doesn't have as clear a villain to work against. Tina Turner is quite good as Auntie Entity, but she isn't the pure force of evil and destructiveness the earlier villains were. Miller, who co-wrote the screenplay with Terry Hayes, doesn't make it clear why Max should oppose her. Master-Blaster certainly seems more unpleasant and dangerous. Max's opposition could be made to work, but Miller, Hayes, and Ogilvie don't succeed. The supporting roles are very well played, though the casting of Bruce Spence, the Gyro Captain in "The Road Warrior", in a completely unrelated yet similar part is more than a bit confusing. I don't want to get too down on "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome". It has some fine sequences, there is a point behind the entire plot, and all involved deserve praise for attempting more than a mere retread of "The Road Warrior". Particular praise goes to Grace Walker, the production designer. The only reason I can think of to see "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" again is to compare the many subtle differences between the sets and costumes of it and "The Road Warrior". Obviously, much thought has gone into deciding just how artifacts and communities are going to degenerate as things run out and wear down, and the results are sometimes more interesting than the plot. Co-direction is extremely uncommon in America and most of Europe, but apparently happens a lot in Australia. Contrary to rumor, George Miller and George Ogilvie both worked on the entire picture, side by side throughout. Ogilvie's theatrical background shows up in some of the ensemble work with the children and the citizens of Bartertown, but otherwise he seems to contribute little. Either he watered down Miller or that gentleman is running out of steam, for his incredible ability to sustain the tension of an extended action sequence is notably missing from this film. One cannot blame the failures of "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" on Ogilvie, however, as Miller, who also served as producer, could easily have made the film by himself, if he wished. "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" is a good adventure film which I enjoyed, but it just isn't a classic. If I hadn't seen "The Road Warrior", I'd probably be perfectly satisfied with this film. Unfortunately, I have seen "The Road Warrior", four times. I consider it the best film of the eighties, so far, and have every intention of seeing it again. On the other hand, I cannot picture myself sitting through "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" again. Much as I like the character and the setting, I think Miller should retire him and try to find some entirely different. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 85 13:55 EDT (Sun) From: Mijjil Subject: music, SF what about Elton John's "Rocket Man" - if you've ever read Ray Bradbury's "Illustrated Man" you might notice a short story there called "Rocket Man" which is surprisingly similar... {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: Sun 14 Jul 85 14:03:25-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: music in sf >I concur. And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging >conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of >written SF in which music played a dominant theme? Stories that come to mind immediately include: McCaffrey's ``Harper Hall'' trilogy (Dragonsong, -singer, and -drums) McCaffrey's ``The Ship Who Sang'' Stories which use music, but not as a dominant theme, include: Adams' Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything [The Disaster Area concert] C. Smith's ``Under Old Earth'' [The congohelium] Anthony's _Macroscope_ [Ivo's flute] Without refering to my collection, that's all I can think of offhand. McCaffrey's the only author I know of who really uses music as an important part of the story. Evan Kirshenbaum ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA UUCP: ..ucbvax!shasta!amadeus!evan ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jul 85 16:37:32 PDT (Sunday) Subject: Re: SF in Music From: Peter Alfke How about: Al Stewart's "The Sirens of Titan" (I forget which album this is from) The song is quite definitely based on the Kurt Vonnegut novel. I heard the song first, so I had a really great time reading the book. ("Oh, so THAT'S what that means! ...") Genesis' "One For the Vine" (From "Wind & Wuthering) An entertaining time-travel fantasy. and let's not forget all the Stevie Nicks songs that sound like all the bad fantasy novels that clog the SF shelves at B. Dalton. --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Sat 13 Jul 85 12:24:52-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: re: FTL Travel >Actually, according to Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel >is just plain impossible. All the sqrt(v^2 / c^2) terms turn >imaginary... I'm sure this shows a shocking naivitee on the subject of relativistic physics, but this argument never made much sense to me. So what if the multiplier turns imaginary. Imaginary numbers have rights too. Besides, since everything on the ship would have an imaginary mass, their ratios would still be real. I've always been surprised that physicists would throw up their hands at this and say "it's impossible" rather than finding out just what the consequences of having imaginary mass, velocity and time would be Evan Kirshenbaum ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan) Subject: FTL travel Date: 13 Jul 85 14:39:45 GMT >From: franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) >>nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) writes: >> According to Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel is >> exactly equivalent to traveling backwards in time: there is no >> difference. > Stories assuming ftl travel generally (implicitly) assume that > special relativity is wrong, that there is a preferred frame of > reference, which approximates our own here on Earth. Admittedly, > most do this because the author does not understand special > relativity, BUT it is a consistent assumption -- just not very > likely. One would think that the Michelson-Morley experiment fairly well ruled out this unlikely possibility nearly a hundred years ago! > From: Peter Alfke > Actually, according to Special Relativity, faster-than-light > travel is just plain impossible. All the sqrt(v^2 / c^2) terms > turn imaginary . No. Special Relativity just says that you can't accelerate through the speed of light. It doesn't say you can't travel faster than the speed of light. Haven't you ever read any of the stuff on tachyons? The tachyon theory is completely consistent with Special Relativity. They always travel faster than light, and they travel backwards through time. > Any story in which ftl works is tacitly assuming that something > new has superceded Relativity in the same manner as Relativity > superceded Newtonian mechanics. That, or the author just doesn't > care about all the physical ramifications; he/she just needs ftl > to tell the story. (Either approach is equally valid in my book.) Something might come along that might be more general than Special Relativity (gee like General Relativity), but it's incredibly unlikely that anything will ever contradict Special Relativity. Special Relativity is mathematically derived from some very simple assumptions.. If Special Relatvity were found to be incorrect, it would mean that at least one of those simple assumptions is incorrect. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that any of these simple assumptions is incorect, and if one of them were to be found to be incorrect, it would have far more ramifications than merely FTL travel, which then should be dealt with in the SF story. Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA) ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: what the Visitors came for Date: 12 Jul 85 16:16:48 GMT >The Idea that an advanced alien race would come to Earth (or >anyhere else for that matter) is not as preposterous as it sounds. >Isaac Asimov wrote a book in which the plot traced an expedition >from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water. This was no small task for >the Martians. For the "Visitors" it would be quite a bit easier. >It has also been suggested that Jupiter would make a nice fuel stop >for interstellar ships leaving or entering the Solar system. Why >Jupiter? It would In Asimov's classic story 'The Martian Way' Martian colonists were getting water ice from Saturn's rings instead of from Earth's oceans because of political problems with Earth. It also turned out to be much more economical than hauling water out of Earth's gravity well. The idea of using Jupiter as a refueling station is that you don't have to land, you just skim the edge of the atmosphere and scoop the hydrogen out. The only energy lost is from atmospheric friction. Of course you have haul the fuel you scoop out of Jupiter's gravity well, but you can use part of what you scoop as reaction mass, so you have a net gain. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 13:03:17 pdt From: jpa144@cit-vax (Jens Peter Alfke) Subject: Re: What the Visitors came for >> Isaac Asimov wrote a book in whichthe plot traced an expedition >> from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water. > > Wasn't that Saturn ? The story (novelette) is "The Martian Way", and the expedition went to the asteroid belt, I believe. (Makes more sense than Jupiter or Saturn, doesn't it? I could be wrong, however; I don't have a copy of the story.) With regard to the Visitors/Rigellians, I can't imagine a sapient race being stupid enough to think we have a Bronze Age culture -- anyone about to invade a planet would monitor activity (especially radio and TV) on that planet VERY carefully beforehand. If they wanted red meat, they could have caused much less alarm by snatching cows instead ... :-) --Peter Alfke alfke.pasa@xerox -or- jpa144@cit-vax ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Jul 85 2138-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #269 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 16 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 269 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Story Request Answered & Life Probe & Best Short Stories, Films - Back to the Future & The Alien's Return & Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, Miscellaneous - Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Jul 85 16:27:51 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Review of 3 Heinlein books since TEFL I dont remember the copyright date for TEFL, so Im not sure what all has come out afterwards. There are 3 that I am sure of, all of which have been debated hotly on this digest; I will append my reviews, but please be aware that I am a RAH fanatic. The Number of the Beast: This was a fun book, with the same tone (to me) as TEFL. same friendly bickering, some introspection on the part of the characters, and an interesting trick of having the narrator alternate between the 4 major characters. I was having fun reading this till the last major division of the book... where I feel RAH copped out. I dont want to totally spoil it for you, so I wont give any more detail. The writing style stayed the same, the character's interaction continued, but there was a cop out nonetheless. This book also has one of the most confusing last chapters I have ever come across... if you are a completist reader, and have read *everything* he has ever written, in addition to being a sf fan in general, you will have fun with the last chapter... but I in my ignorance was confused. It has been said that this book was written deliberately self indulgently, with little regard for the readers. I personally think it was an in joke played on the publisher, since this book was a milestone for writers, in that it was negotiated for, before beign written, for 6 million dollars. (i think; an obnoxious amount of money, anyway). Friday: This is a book that goes back to his older style of writing: very crisp, no nonsense, "of course this is the way it happened." It is reminiscent to me of the short stories in his Future History Collection. Friday is the name of the lead character, a girl with a very intriguing background. Many people have complained about the lack of characterisation in this one, and of a pat, easy, out of character (for the character) ending, but every time I reread it I get a little insight into a different type of personality. His views on a Balkanized America are amusing. Also, this novel uses some characters and references from a short story in the collection Assignment In (To?) Eternity. I can't remember the title of the story, but there are only 4 in the book. Job: A Comedy of Justice: This book is different. It is not Science Fiction in any of its incarnations, and it is not like anything else I have ever read from Heinlein. It reads almost like a Mainstream Novel Using Fantasy As A Device. I liked the concepts in the book, and I liked the general idea, but I cant say I liked the book (shame, shame, I hang my head in shame). The entire book is a continuation of his seeming tirade against organized religion, but the humor and wit (well, I think so!) that he usually brings to his arguments is either missing or so well hidden that I cant see it. And this is the one I bought in hardcover... *sigh*. My only real warning is that his hero, like all his men, is totally, thoroughly, and slightly disgustingly besotted with his woman. I hear there is another book out, mentioned in one of the digests, called Cats: A Comedy of Manners. I know nothing of this one. I repeat: I am a Heinlein fanatic. Take all my raves with however much salt you want. I do not think he is a male chauvinist, nor that he believes everything he writes. Sometimes I think his men are too adoring of the women in their lives, but that just enables the women to take more complete control :). Robert Heinlein, Robert Heinlein, RAH! RAH! RAH! /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: Sun 14 Jul 85 00:07:44-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20A.ARPA Subject: Bruce McCulley's story request > ...a juvenile story about a young teenage girl stranded in some > situation alone on the moon, encountering an alien .. The story is "The Enemy", by Damon Knight, copyright 1957. My copy is in "Far Out", a collection of Knight stories published in 1962 by Berkley. Excellent stuff. As slick as Sheckley, but with more nightmare potential. Don Lindsay ------------------------------ Subject: Life Probe From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jeff Smith) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1985 12:26 EDT There is a really good story dealing with artificial intellegence, man's first contact with extra-terrestrial intellegence, and FTL travel, called "Life Probe". ****** PSUEDO-SPOLIER ****** It is about a race of creatures, called The Makers, who are have a strong desire for the seeking of knowlage, exploration, and all that other good stuff. They have populated all the planets in thier solar system, and some around nearby stars, but they are still unsatisfied. The only method of space travel they know is slower-than-light, called Slow Boats. In order for them to colonize and explore more rapidly, they set out to find the secret of FTL travel. They work up a few good theories, but they all fail in practice, so they send out several hundred thousand "Life Probes", which will scour the universe in search of intellegent life, but more importantly intellegent life that know the secret of FTL travel. One of these probes happens across Earth, and decides to instigate it's prime function. To establish contact with the Humans.. ****** END PSEUDO-SPOILER SECTION ****** This book is really great, and the author has written more, but I can't seem to remember his name. ------------------------------ Subject: Short stories and bibliography request Date: 15 Jul 85 11:36:49 EDT (Mon) From: jdecarlo@mitre.ARPA >From: Glen Daniels >In your opinion, what are the BEST SF shorts? I would really like >to have a consensus of votes from the SF-Lovers people, to see >which ones I should watch for that I haven't seen yet, if for no >other reason... Just thought I would add a few of my favorites (off the top of my head). Although I am certainly *no* expert. 1. Orson Scott Card, "Unaccompanied Sonata" (One of few to make me cry, and only one to make me cry every time I reread it.) 2. Alan Dean Foster, "With Friends Like These" (My favorite "Humans are the best and can do anything" story) 3. George Alec Effinger, "At the Bran Foundry" (Just great.) 4. R.A. Lafferty, "Days of Grass, Days of Straw" (ditto). For older stories, I recommend The_Science_Fiction_Hall_Of_Fame, Vol. One, edited by Robert Silverberg. More generally, (in *my* book) anything by George Alec Effinger or R. A. Lafferty. In fact, I have tried to get my hands on as much of their stuff as possible (I recommend Nine_Hundred_Grandmothers for Lafferty's stories.), but I would be in debt to anyone who could lead me to a comprehensive list of stories/novels by these two authors. John DeCarlo ------------------------------ From: moncol!john@topaz.arpa (John Ruschmeyer) Subject: Amusing reference in _Back to the Future_ Date: 14 Jul 85 02:29:32 GMT I was reading the novelization of _Back to the Future_ and noticed an amusing reference. When Marty arrives in 1955, he arrives on the Peabody farm. The farmer, Mr. Peabody, has a son named....... Sherman. This? In a story about time travel? Can you say "Way-Back Machine"? I knew you could? Name: John Ruschmeyer US Mail: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Phone: (201) 222-6600 x366 UUCP: ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john ...!princeton!moncol!john ...!pesnta!moncol!john ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Bad sci-fi movie: THE ALIEN'S RETURN Date: 15 Jul 85 16:38:41 GMT Recently endured this movie, which I don't recall ever seeing before, or seeing any reference to, on a local independent TV station (channel 30, KDNL-TV, St. Louis, MO); this might mean it just came out in a syndication package or something, and you all will get the chance to see it too. Lucky you... Nano-review: Gasp, choke, barf... Probably the following contains *** SPOILERS *** (but how you can spoil something already rotten I don't know... :-): This movie has name stars: Cybill Shepherd, Jan-Michael Vincent, Martin Landau, Raymond Burr. I thought it might actually have possibilities, but, as I gazed in disbelief, I was disabused of that notion... Technical detail: At least the print that was aired locally had a defective sound track. The voices, especially in the first half of the movie, were muffled and distorted; when you upped the volume enough to hear them, the music blared out at a painful level. Plot: alien spacecraft appears, imbues certain individuals with mysterious rays, zaps a rock with a crystalline pattern, and disappears. Comes back 25 years later, and does nothing... (Really; Cybill and Jan-Michael get teleported into the spacecraft through a spacewarp-type tunnel, and all that seems to happen to them is that they are then beamed back to the ground a few feet from where they left. No big deal... happens every day, right?) Best scene: Martin Landau, as a hick sheriff, violently overacting (if Martin Landau grins and shouts, that is overacting, right?), complaining about the pop-top holes in beer cans being too small to dunk a do-nut through, and pouring beer over his do-nut instead. [Having just read all the Space:1999 Landau discussion meant I just *had* to post news of another Landau vehicle, right?] :-) This movie gets into cattle mutilation in a big way, too.... Was this a tax-loss or something? Regards, Will USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ From: tekcrl!terryl@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" Date: 14 Jul 85 20:18:06 GMT Gee, I thought I was the only one who was disappointed with the new "Mad Max". I really have to agree heavily that the lack of a clear plot line was the big disappointment for me. "Road Warrior", and to a lesser degree, the original "Mad Max" had very recognizable plot lines, even if they were very simplistic. Also, another point is that the first two movies told their respective stories with actions and people, whereas the new movie did it mostly with fantastic sets. Now don't get me wrong, I liked the sets and the photography, but it seems to me that they put too much emphasis on the sets and not on the people or the story. Also, the ending is directly stolen from the ending of "Road Warrior", but it just didn't have the same sense of urgency or importance that the ending of "Road Warrior" had. I'd also have to agree that Mel Gibson didn't have much of an opportunity to do some acting here, as he did in the first two. Granted, he didn't have much speaking parts in the first two, but I'd blame the director/screenwriter for his lackadaisical performance here instead of blaming Mel himself. I think Mel has proven that he can do some real good acting, judging by his performance in the first two movies and his really first-rate performance in "The Year of Living Dangerously". All in all, if you're a "Mad Max" fan or a Mel Gibson fan, by all means go see "Mad Max-Beyond Thunderdome", but don't expect too much. Terry Laskodi of Tektronix ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 00:39:19 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"... I had an interesting correspondence recently regarding "cute", and why it has become anathema. As example, I listed a variety of characters, including the Ewoks. The recent blast at the ewoks prompted me to reproduce, in brief, that correspondence here: What is wrong with "cute" these days? I'm sorry, but I LIKED the Ewoks! I have spared myself the dubious delights of the Smurfs, along with most of the other rubbish that advertisers think will appeal to kids (and God help us, sometimes they're right). That is definitely excessive cuteness, suited only to young adolescents, female I assume, who go to bed surrounded in teddy-bears. But the cuteness of anything, even if it does resemble a walking teddy-bear, is decidedly limited when it wakes you up, as it did Leia, with a sharp spear at a sensitive spot. It is even more limited when hoardes of them rig deadfalls, treeborne traps, and batallions of archers to take out a legion of storm troopers. So I think labelling the Ewoks "cute" is one of the oversimplifications that abound when people discuss Star Wars -- or when certain self-appointed network critics discuss anything having to do with sf. Likewise silly speculation on their names: for instance, "it's Wookie spelled backward" (which of course, it isn't). Guessing further, I'd say that the most vocal sf followers these days want to project an image of "maturity", of following a literary form of serious intent. Anybody who feels like that is bound to feel that "cuteness" is souring his cause. Again, I think this is one for the self-appointed critics, and not to be taken too seriously by most of us. It will have its day and be forgotten. Friends of mine have complained about the various traps used to trash the imperials, viz., how could they build them in such a short time? I assumed, naturally enough, that there are large predators on the planet, that we never see, on which they use things like the swinging logs (that was a good one!) Ah, yes, the Ewoks and the old two-logs-in-the-trees-as-a- giant-nutcracker trick. Considering the evidence, I am quite prepared to believe the thing was already there, or didn't take them at all long to build. What evidence? They were a martial tribe. The first encountered introduced himself to Leia with a spear, and gloated when the Imperial who tried to capture her was eliminated. Han's group, trying to find her, was captured in one of their traps. The whole group except 3PO was bound hand and foot, or more, and carried to the village, helpless. Anybody who proposes to me that these are harmless, naive little teddy bears whose expression of bad temper is throwing stones will have to defend himself vigorously. Whatever the reason -- perhaps, as you suggest, large predators not seen in the movie, where they would, after all, have been irrelevant -- the Ewoks were well able to defend themselves. They made weapons and traps quickly, and there were many of them -- certainly enough quickly to hoist two logs into the trees and rig them for quick release. (And they had avoided the stormtroopers when the moon was checked for native life. Even acknowledging that the stormtroopers' brains and helmets are probably made of the same stuff, that suggests that the Ewoks are skilled at evasion). Apologies to my friend for publishing the letters, but I think they would never have been seen otherwise. I think, especially in light of some of the recent digest material (D. Tucker's sallies and whatnot), that we're all taking ourselves and SF much too seriously. This dislike of "cuteness" (a subjective term, at best) is evidence. And c'mon, you Hoka and Fuzzy fans! Why take offense? I like them too, and that's why I liked the Ewoks. There is nothing about them to be ashamed of. And some of their methods were far more original than the usual stage-swordplay and shoot-em-up horse-operas-to-the- stars ("tin badge pinned to the space suit" says my fiance from the other room...). Comments? Flames? Leigh Ann Militant ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 85 1229-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #270 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 270 Today's Topics: Books - Footfall (3 msgs), Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) & Cocoon & Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, Music - SF in Music (2 msgs), Television - Space: 1999, Miscellaneous - Christopher LLoyd & Problems in SF & Aliens Visiting Earth (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randvax!rohn@topaz.arpa (Laurinda Rohn) Subject: Re: SF Writers in Footfall Date: 11 Jul 85 22:34:24 GMT lmc@denelcor.UUCP (Lyle McElhaney) writes: >The SF writers who make up the "threat team" in Niven & Pournelle's >new book _Footfall_ are: > Robert & Virginia Anson > Sherry Atkinson > Nat Reynolds > Joe Ransom > Wade and Jane Curtis > Bob Burnham > Carol North (added later) > >The remainder are not clear to me. The only other real clues are >that Atkinson is pacififistic (non-paranoid, as Anson puts it). Bob >Burnham has white hair and wears a gaudy vest, Ransom has a thick >black mustache. Carol North could be Andre Norton, except that she >is depicted as rather young. Joe Ransom is probably Jim Ransom, who is a friend of mine and a good friend of Jerry's as well. He lives in LA. With the clues about white hair and a gaudy vest, Bob Burnham HAS to be Bob Forward, who has white hair and a wears some of the gaudiest vests I've ever seen. I'm not sure about the others. I know there's a woman who used to live in LA named Sherry A. McNeal, and she is (or was) active in the pro-space community and has edited at least one book on the subject. Lauri rohn@rand-unix.ARPA ..decvax!randvax!rohn ------------------------------ From: trwatf!root@topaz.arpa (Lord Frith) Subject: Footfall... is this a good book? Reviews? Date: 15 Jul 85 17:40:46 GMT Larry Niven and Jerry Pournell have come out with a new book that (according to the dust jacket) looks mighty conventional to me. The plot reads like another aliens from another world descend to conquer the Earth story. The book itself is as big as encyclopedia too.... Jeeze what a long book! So.... is this a good book? Anybody know anything about it? Could you reply by mail? I can't keep up with net.books. UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: SF Writers in Footfall Date: 15 Jul 85 17:01:19 GMT >The SF writers who make up the "threat team" in Niven & Pournelle's >new book _Footfall_ are: > Robert & Virginia Anson > Sherry Atkinson > Nat Reynolds > Joe Ransom > Wade and Jane Curtis > Bob Burnham > Carol North (added later) >Most obviously, The first are Robert (Anson) and Virginia Heinlein. >Nat Reynolds and Wade Curtis write together, and both live in Los >Angeles (if that's not enough of a clue, check out Curtis' response >to the aliens' conditional surrender: "Nuke them till they glow, >and then shoot them in the dark"). To make it even more obvious didn't Jerry Pournelle write for Analog under the penname of Wade Curtis? I especially remember his story 'A Matter of Sovereignity'. ------------------------------ From: azure!chrisa@topaz.arpa (Chris Andersen) Subject: Re: Back to The Future (SPOILER) Date: 14 Jul 85 23:16:20 GMT >From: Daniel.Zigmond@CMU-CS-SPICE >The one thing that bothered me about Back to the Future wasn't that >it made use of parallel universes but that it seemed to use them >wrong. Marty changed both universes. The changes to the universe >he returned to were obvious: his parents had dfferent >personalities, he had a new truck, etc... However, he also changed >the universe he left. He invented rock and roll (essentially). >While he is playing Jonny B Goode at the dance (in 1955), the >guitarist with the broken arm (whose name was something Berry) >calls his brother "Chuck" to tell him about this great new style of >music that Marty is playing. This means that universe 1 (where >Marty started) shouldn't have had any rock music in it because >Marty wasn't around in 1955 to let Chuck know about it. Of course, >it did because otherwise Marty wouldn't have known the song (or >have been in a rock band). Huh? Where in the movie is there a mention of parallel universes. Marty doesn't change two universes. He changes the original universe into another one. Perhaps in the original Universe Chuck Berry did discover the new sound on his own. But in the changed universe, he had some help from Marty. Where's the problem? Chris Andersen ------------------------------ From: rocksvax!brenda@topaz.arpa (Brenda K. Joseph) Subject: RE: BACK TO THE FUTURE Date: 15 Jul 85 21:18:38 GMT ******This is a spoiler****** If you look closely at the letter that the doc shows Marty in this future, you can easily see the yellowed tape and where the tears don't quite meet from him putting it back together after he tore it apart. I watched (twice) and he does put the letter in his pocket thirty years ago after tearing it up. He does NOT have the vest on before Marty goes back to the future. I sat through it twice the other day, after seeing it once previously. REgarding paradoxes: This movie traces a line, not a loop. The line is Marty's existence and his knowledge of events around him. Before he goes back in time, the world is as we know it and his world is as shown in the movie. While back in time, he changes certain events. For instance, Chuck Berry hears him playing Johnny B Goode. Had Marty never gone back in time, he would have learned it the same way he did in our own past. I believe the same logic resolves Doc and Marty meeting. They met without Marty going back, they will meet again (esp. since Doc now knows Marty). When Marty comes "back", the people around him are aware of the changes he has "caused" to the timeline, but he isn't. He hasn't lived through them. ***My only problem is -- what happens to the Marty that lived in this new universe up until the time the "original" Marty came back from the future? A friend recommended I read "Thrice Upon A Time". Apparently this has similar views and puts forth the theory that when Marty comes back from the past, the Marty that has been living in the "altered universe" ceases to exist. (I forget the author's name -- haven't had a chance to read it yet.) Brenda Joseph Xerox Corporation Arpanet: Joseph.Henr@Xerox.ARPA CSNet: Not sure ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 15:34:17 edt From: John McLean Subject: Cocoon I finally got around to seeing Coocoon. I am a bit surprised that with all I have read about the movie, nobody has mentioned what, for me, made it above average. I am referring to the obvious Christian undertones of trespasses, forgiving of those trespasses, baptism, eternal life in the heavens, and perhaps even the death of a savior. John ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" Date: 15 Jul 85 14:58:13 GMT While I didn't like 'Beyond Thunderdome' as much as 'The Road Warrior' that is apparently not a universal reaction. I was watching Siskel and Ebert last night and they were very high on the picture. They actually liked it better than 'The Road Warrior'. They liked they way Miller brought some new ideas to the picture instead of making a straight sequel. That last chase sequence struck me as being too much like the one in 'The Road Warrior'. I was bothered by a couple of things in the picture: 1. Didn't the earlier pictures say that civilization collapsed because of an energy shortage, with perhaps some help by fighting over the remaining energy resources? This movie says that it was because of Nuclear Warfare. I don't remember any point being made of latent radioactivity in the earlier pictures. The only thing I can think of is that there were some isolated bombing during the spasms of civilization's collapse and that Max has wandered into an area near one of them. 2. The children that find Max in the desert are too young. I would think that the collapse of civilization happened at least 10 and maybe 20 years ago, but some of the children Can't be older than 5 or 6. And unless I missed something, all of them were born before the collapse. The Feral Kid of the Road Warrior was older than them and I'm pretty sure he was born not long the collapse. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 85 23:46:50 PDT From: Kevin Carosso Subject: Queen song... The Queen song with the starship is called "'39". It's on "A Night at the Opera". A beautiful song too... The story comes through with a nice touch of subtlety. It deals with a score of volunteers who leave "in the year of '39". Interestingly enough, they also return "in the year of '39". My favorite part: In the year of '39 came a ship in from the blue. The volunteers came home that day. And they bring good news of a world so beautiful, though their hearts so heavily weigh. For the earth is old and grey little darling went away but my love this cannot be. Oh so many years are gone though I'm older but a year, your mother's eyes from your eyes cry to me /Kevin Carosso engvax!kvc @ CIT-VAX.ARPA Hughes Aircraft Co. ------------------------------ From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady) Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 14 Jul 85 21:16:50 GMT >> And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging >> conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of >> written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One such >> might be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, >> _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_. Ack. There was some Asimov short story in which a composer is brought in to help a psychologist who has found that music can cure depression.. Can't remember the name. Steven ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Shapechangers in ST/Space 1999 Date: 10 Jul 85 02:34:00 GMT About the Squire of Gothos: He did NOT have outside power coming in. He was a pure energy being similar to the organians! In fact, he may have been a young Organian for all we know. However, I think that the Squire and the Organians should not be classed as shapechangers because neither had a true physical form in the normal sense. Both caused a physical form to appear by controlling energy patterns -- light energy waves patterned to form images, heat energy to form tactile impressions, etc. However, you have pointed up yet another 1999 inconsistency: Maya had to get the energy somewhere. She did not ingest an inordinate amount of food for a humanoid of her size and build. Where the did she get the (considerable) energy to shapechange. There is one logical explanation: her body chemistry tapped the good old 3 degrees Kelvin beckground radiation of the universe. However, this implies a whole slew of abilities and attributes that were never mentioned or displayed in the show. 1) she must have complete control over her rate and spectral range of energy absorption. Otherwise, she would always cause the area around her to darken, acting as a natural EM silencer. She would also be apparent only as an area around her which had a lack of EM radiation -- a sphere of darkness! However, if she can regulate her energy consumption, she would be able to: 1) shield the crew and herself from ALL blast effects; 2) act as a portable radio, microwave, etc. jammer; 3) could hide in the shadows, and in fact create shadows!, at will. Thus, we fall back on the basic problem with S1999 ... the people writing the scripts didn't have the requisite basic science background to pull it off. About spindizzies: Thes little gadgets *propelled* the world or city; MoonBase Alpha just went cruising along on momentum. orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ Subject: Christopher LLoyd Date: 14 Jul 85 17:21:59 PDT (Sun) From: Doug Krause Here is everything that I can remember seeing Chris Lloyd in: Rev. Jim Ignatouski "Taxi" Lord Kruge "Star Trek III" Doc E. Brown "Back To The Future" Sargeant Schultz "To Be or Not To Be" Frogface "The Lady In Red" psycho patient "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" Doug Krause dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 20:14:55 PDT From: Will Duquette Subject: STEVEN BRUST AND THE SCIENCE FICTION CRITICS I've noticed that most of the "replies" I read in SFLOVERS (barring those which are purely informational) tend to be very negative -- that is, people are willing to supply information in a friendly way, but when it comes to opinions, particularly controversial opinions.... Well, the attitude seems to be, "If I can't flame about it, I'm going to ignore it." The "Spoiler Warning" messages are a case in point: some find them useful, while others (who could surely ignore them easily enough) seem to get a kick out of complaining. Having said this, I would like to congratulate SKZB for a well-reasoned, unapologetic discussion of the merits of science fiction, and of the relative merits (in his opinion) of various authors. In some ways I agree, in some I disagree, but at least he has a viewpoint that doesn't drift toward one of the various extremes that plague this newsletter. Will Duquette ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Re: what an advanced race would ... Date: 10 Jul 85 02:45:00 GMT Not too long ago, Someone mentioned that Hydrogen and Oxygen were two of the most common elements in the universe. Therefore, why invade a defenseless Earth to get (possibly polluted) water? They forgot one major fact: Most of that hydrogen is tied up in stars. Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to go and skim a star for hydrogen any time soon. Especially Rigel! Somebody else mentioned that the Visitors came in conventional spaceships with conventional drives. I hate to disillusion you, but early in the first or second mini-series, it was established that the Visitors ships were all gravitic drive. That alone provides a very effective way to lift water out of a gravity well... or to lift anything at all for that matter. orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 85 10:10:55 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Advanced Races Visiting Earth Obviously -- they can't get on any TV shows where they come from, since the quality of scripts there is equally advanced. Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ From: utastro!ethan@topaz.arpa (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: What the Visitors came for Date: 15 Jul 85 14:29:59 GMT Actually I neither know nor care what the Visitors came for. However.. >>> Isaac Asimov wrote a book in whichthe plot traced an expedition >>> from Mars to Jupiter to acquire water. >> >> Wasn't that Saturn ? > > The story (novelette) is "The Martian Way", and the expedition > went to the asteroid belt, I believe. (Makes more sense than > Jupiter or Saturn, doesn't it? I could be wrong, however; I don't > have a copy of the story.) Sorry, but you are wrong. The expedition went to the rings of Saturn. The water content of asteroids is probably very small. The moons of Jupiter have lots of water, but Asimov implied that even a modest gravitational field would have been a problem. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 85 1328-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #271 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 271 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Herck & McCollum & Robinson & Wilhelm, Films - John Dykstra & Back to the Future, Television - Killing Heros & Blake's Seven, Miscellaneous - FTL Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john) Subject: Re: Time control stories Date: 15 Jul 85 07:37:00 GMT >Did anyone notice that the girl from planet Gaiea (spelling?) in >Foundation's Edge seems suspiciously like the girl who went back in >time with the engineer in The End of Eternity-- is she a robot who >changed history because of the First Law? Is Asimov really going >to tie everything he ever wrote together in the next foundation >book? Nice guess but no dice. The 111,394 that Noyes lived in existed in a completely different reality than Gaia did. They could not be the same person (thing?). Isaac does seem to be tying all of his works together into a single unified story. The next episode will probably take us to Earth to find out what has happened there since Pebble in the Sky. I expect that we will find out that Noyes was behind sending Joseph Schwartz into the future (could he have been sent to the new 111,394?). She arrived on earth 17 years before he left and having viewed future realities could have known that he was crucial to developing a galactic empire. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 21:32:48-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: PLUTERDAY > From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA (Chris Miller) > Alan Taylor's note jogged my memory of a book I read somewhere > back in the dim recesses of my youth: it was called WHERE WERE YOU > LAST PLUTERDAY? I'm afraid I don't remember the author, > although I do remember that he was European and that the boohad > been translated. Maybe even eastern European, but that's a long > shot. Another, even longer, shot says that the book was published > by dell sometime pre-1975. Close, very close. WHERE WERE YOU LAST PLUTERDAY? is by Paul Van Herck, and was published by DAW in 1973. I'm afraid that I don't have a reference for the translator (Van Herck is Belgian), as my copy is packed away. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 12:09:06 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: Life Probe author identified > From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jeff Smith) > There is a really good story dealing with artificial intellegence, > man's first contact with extra-terrestrial intellegence, and FTL > travel, called "Life Probe". This book is really great, and the > author has written more, but I can't seem to remember his name. The book is by Michael McCollum. I wholeheartedly second the above recommendation. The author also wrote a very good set of parallel-universe stories which were collected and expanded in the book _A_Greater_Infinity_. I've been waiting for a sequel to the latter for a while now; other than the two books and one other short story written with his wife, he hasn't done anything else that I know of. marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 85 17:11 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Arts in Space >And while we're on the subject, where in the real **HARD SCIENCE** >stories is music, or any of the arts? The only example that comes to mind is a book by Spider Robinson titled STARDANCE. (Though I question whether it really qualifies as --hard science--) I remember this being a novel about a group who open a dance studio in an orbiting space station (think of them possibilities!!) and then, just ever so incidentally, happen to be on hand when Earth needs ambassadors to converse with a spaceship full of aliens who just happen to "speak" via dance. In spite of my sarcasm, I remember being surprised that the book made it both as good science fiction and as accurate dance depiction. It had many beautiful descriptive passages in it, to boot. Chris Miller (Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 20:10:38 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Welcome, Chaos ******Continued Spoiler****** >>Rob MacLachlan writes: I also find the nature of the cure rather >>unlikely. It is a substance fortuitously discovered . . . which >>magically revamps your immune system. The ways that your body can >>fail are many and complex. I doubt that any one substance, let >>alone a natural one, will be the answer to "immortality". If >>substantial life prolongation is obtained, it will probably be >>through a large collection of carefully designed treatments. >Carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc responds: The source of the substance >was the HeLa strain of human cancer Tcells. Sorry to be so slow, but I just gotta say something about this. This points up one of the reasons why English profs simply shouldn't try to write "hard" SF. HeLa cells are the living remnants of a uterine cancer which grew in the unfortunate Henrietta Lacks, of Washington, DC, in the 1950s (*not* a typo). The cells are of a single type, and bear no relationship whatsoever to T-cells. T-cell cancers are *quite* different, and increasingly well characterized. HeLa cells are horribly hard to kill, and it has been found in more than one lab that they invaded other cultures and displaced them. This does *not* mean, however, that they are appropriate as a probable (or even plausible) source of immortality [virulence is another thing entirely]. Neither are they appropriate as *The Cells That Ate the Chicago*, or some other asinine horror story. There are more plausible approaches to immortality stories. I can think of a quite old novella by Poul Anderson which dealt with it (peripherally) well--and poignantly, to boot. There is also a pretty good novel by Niven on the subject. Both titles escape me at the moment. Nor do I object to trashy treatments which don't pretend to be scientific. I merely avoid them. But Wilhelm is bright enough that she should know better than to try to get specific about science, when she doesn't know any!! Paula%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multicx.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Ignore my last message, if not too late Date: 17 Jul 85 02:56:55 GMT >from Gern: >I incorrectly tried to correct Mark Leeper's posting about the >special effects to Star Wars. John Dykstra did indeed do the >effects to Star Wars and not a pre-ILM as I had thought. Dykstra and ILM both worked on the effects of the first STAR WARS. ILM was formed from people who worked on STAR WARS. Whether Dykstra was a part of ILM at that time and then left I don't know. But you were right in thinking ILM did the effects, and I am fairly sure one of the techniques they used was Dykstraflex which I remember was invented for the film. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Liking BACK TO THE FUTURE (while disliking GOONIES!) Date: 17 Jul 85 03:51:00 GMT >Some of BTTF drawbacks: almost every SF idea in it was recycled in >SF books 10000 times at least. There are all kinds of constraints on films that are not on books. It is a lot more expensive to create a film than a book and it has to appeal to a lot more people than does a book. With this in mind, science fiction on the screen all too often has to be more primitive than science fiction in a book. That is why science fiction films are so much behind the literature. Rare is the film that can really compete with a book for ideas. When you have a kid and he is taking his first steps, are you going to sneer and say, "So what, lot's of people can walk!" How many ideas from STAR WARS were new and perceptive. I only noticed one, that that was sort of a technical necessity. [So as not to break the flow, I explain it at the end of this article.] >Some of the more original ideas lack credibility (hitting 88 miles >an hour at exactly proper point, at exactly right moment????!!!!!). One point for you. That was absurd. >Also, HOW WOULD PLUTONIUM GENERATE 1000000000000 watt? Did >they have nuclear explosion every time? As a viewer I find that a lot more credible than that a Goonie can break his fall and save his life with some plastic teeth on the end of a spring from his belt. I know that that is stupidly implausible. I don't know that generating power directly from plutonium is stupidly implausible. It is unlikely with our current technology, but clearly Lloyd played a rogue scientist who took technology in different directions. I don't know any theoretical reason why it is impossible. If you place the two ideas side by side, frankly I could much more believe BTTF idea. >Anyway, disregarding those things I would say that the film >provides same sort of entertainment as Goonies - at slightly lower >quality. Frankly, the toilet plumbing scenes of GOONIES seemed to me to be much lower than anything in BTTF. Just about the whole film was, to my mind. BTTF's humor was on a higher level and funnier. Jokes like calling the hero "Calvin" take more thought than shooting someone off a toilet, they also take fewer special effects, and they make a much more interesting point about the hazards of time travel. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper [The idea in STAR WARS? If I speak to a Frenchman either I speak French or he speaks English. That is not the most easy way to do things because it is easier to learn to understand a language than to speak it. If I were holding the conversation with an alien, it might be impossible to speak his language at all. In STAR WARS all conversions between mutual aliens were conducted with each side speaking his own language and only understanding the alien language. That is certainly what would have to be done in an intergalactic civilization, but the idea appeared first in STAR WARS to the best of my knowledge and it wouldn't really have seemed right the other way.] ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Killing Heroes Date: 12 Jul 85 13:56:28 GMT This is quite common in Japanese TV. So are limited series that run only a few (sometimes less than a dozen) shows. Then again,...I've a fondness for the old "hero always wins" series. They may be childish, but they gave me a small percentage of optimism to cling to in real life difficulties. (It's hard to fight on when all you've got is stoic resignation to your doom. The Norse may have managed it, but I can't.) I once ran a storytelling roleplaying game based on a TV show. I told the players, "Your characters have script immunity. You can drop one another down bottomless pits but you CAN NOT kill each other, because there'll be another show next week." We got a fair amount of suspense anyway. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Jul 85 07:56:18-MDT From: Michi Wada Subject: Blake's Seven There are fans of Blake's Seven in the U.S. and they have just recently held Scorpio 3, a Blake's Seven convention in Chicago during the first weekend in July. Guests were Gareth Thomas (Blake), Sally Knyvette (Jenna), Brian Croucher (second season Travis) and Sheelagh Wells (makeup artist, Mrs. Gareth Thomas). Last year in Chicago, Scorpio 2 had as guests Paul Darrow (Avon), Michael Keating (Villa), Brian Croucher (second season Travis) and Terry Nation (Creator of Blake's Seven). There will be a Scorpio 4 sometime in August of 1986 in Chicago. The above named people have promised to come to Scorpio 4, barring any professional committments. Scorpio is the name of both the Blake's Seven club and convention. For further information write to Scorpio 4064 Appleby Lane Richton Park, Ill. 60471 Blake's Seven will be seen in the U.S. starting this fall. Some of the stations who will be showing them are Santa Fe, N.M. ch. 2 local commercial station New Hampshire ch. ? PBS station San Jose, Calif. ch. ? PBS station Bellingham, Wash. ch. 12 ? There are other stations who will be showing them, but my friend couldn't recall the rest of the list. It may be showing in Philadelphia, but it hasn't been confirmed yet. Blake's Seven was about 56 minutes long in England. The PBS stations will run them uncut, but the others will probably be cut down to fit in all those commercials. Michi Wada Sandia National Laboratories Albuquerque, N.M. ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: FTL Travel Date: 15 Jul 85 19:43:59 GMT A little relativity theory: we begin with the basic law of physics F=ma. What this says is that Force is proportional to acceleration (provided the mass of the accelerating body remains constant). Now one way of interpreting special relativity says that F=ma is ONLY true for velocities that are small in comparison to the speed of light. When you get really fast, the law breaks down. You need a lot more force to get the same amount of acceleration once you get going fast enough. The faster you're going, the more force you need to get even a little increase in speed. Finally, it takes an infinite amount of force to push something past the speed of light. All this means is that you can't just put a big rocket engine on your space-ship and propel it to faster-than-light speeds. Somehow or other, you have to "get out of the game"; warp drives, for example, bop out of normal space into a different sort of environment and bop back into normal space somewhere else, by-passing the normal space in between. Another approach is to diminish the mass of your ship in some currently unknown way, to compensate for the diminishing return you're getting from the force you apply. Tachyons get around the problem by _starting_out_ going faster than the speed of light. Since they're already past the boundary, you don't run into the infinite force problem, so they can happily do whatever they want. Jim Gardner University of Waterloo P.S. Physicists are greatly disquieted by the suggestion that F=ma could ever be untrue. Therefore they usually keep the equation and redefine the "m" (mass) so that the equation still works at high speeds. They say that a moving particle has a higher mass than a particle at rest; as a particle moves faster and faster, its mass increases, until at the speed of light, its mass is infinite, which is it would take infinite force to increase the particle's speed. Of course, then the physicists have to explain why motion adds to a particle's mass. Their explanation is that the kinetic energy of the particle is as good as mass, and indeed, energy is the same as mass for the purposes of relativity. Put in equation form, this is E=m. And if you use archaic units of measurement, it turns out that you need a conversion factor in this equation, so you get E=mc**2. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 85 1348-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #272 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 272 Today's Topics: Books - Robert Adams & Brust & McQuay & Schmidt, Films - Dykstra & James Bond (2 msgs), Music - Music and SF (5 msgs), Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 6:15:57 EDT From: "John f. Hardesty" Subject: Robert Adams Readers To whom it may concern, Does anybody out there read Robert Adams `Horseclans` series? If so, respond to me at jhardest@bbncct.arpa John Hardesty ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Review: Yendi Date: 16 Jul 85 15:41:13 GMT Before I give you the review I'd like to relate a short story to you all. Here I am, I post an article to the net asking for information about publishing a novel. Weeks later, a reply comes back and gives me some answers. I write back with a few more questions and get a few more answers. Then I notice who I'm talking with. My eyes jump from our correspondence to the guest list of Archon. Yes. I have been talking to Steve. After sufficient time to recover I try to place the author with his work, but I'm unable to place a name. In desperation I run over to a bookstore on the way to the convention and look up his books. Surprise #2 ! He's the one who wrote Jhereg, one of THE BEST swords & sorcery (in there with such style greats as Leiber and Le Sprague de Camp) I have most recently read. The reason I couldn't place it is because I had borrowed this book from a friend. Anyway, I bought the sequel, Yendi, and I'd like to spark the interest of fantasy fans out here. REVIEW Steve has created his own world. The current time period is about eight human generations after what is referred to as the Interregenum, which I suppose is some kind of Apocolyptic event which is referred to and sketchily detailed. Humans are called Easterners. The current ruling class is some superior humanoids called Dragaerians. There are a number of noble houses, each with a colorful background and certain specific aspects which separate the families. These "people", with a few exceptions do not like to associate with the plebian Easterners. The main character is Vladimir Taltos (pronounced Taltosh). He is an Easterner whose father has bought a title, Baronet, in the House Jhereg, a semi-despised noble house among the Dragaerians. He was raised by the Easterners but his father insisted on Dragaerian training too. He is an Assasin. He is a witch. He can perform minor sorceries. But primarily he is a Boss, the person who runs and controls an area of a Lankmahr like city. All the best elements of adult fantasy are here. You've got the blood, the weaponry and fighting descriptions etc. You've got magic, in terms of sorcerers, witches and artifacts. You've got elder power, in terms of Chaos (this is primarily noted in Jhereg). Next you've got humor. Steve has defined some very witty traits in his characters, which often lead to a good smirk, grin, laugh or what have you. Characters have a well formed background but this is developed painlessly along the course of the story. You really get to know them through the eyes of Vladimir and you laugh, hurt, and kill when he does. In both these books, besides being entertained by the very well described scenes of fighting, magic, etc. there has been some extremely intricate major plot behind the scenes. This can be very enjoyable since you become so distracted with things at hand- it's almost impossible to anticipate the ending. Now the hints are all over for those who want to break the mystery, but this is such easy reading that you'll want to finish rather than stop and figure it out. I personally consumed weeks and months of Steve's labor in one night (sorry buddy). Chronologically, Yendi is placed in between the background that we learn in Jhereg and the Major Plot in Jhereg. It is not really neccesary to read Jhereg first, but it helps. If all this is not enough for you I'll add this. Zelazny personally endorses these works. He gives the longest "I recommend this" to Yendi that I've seen. I recommend this book to those who like: 1) general swords & sorcery like Leiber, de Camp, etc. 2) fighting and blood 3) magic 4) thievery (Jhereg) 5) elder magic (Jhereg) The titles again in order are: Jhereg and Yendi. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 00:35:14-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Mike McQuay > From: Operator (Jessie@ncsc) > _Escape_From_New_York was made into a movie starring a scroungy > Kurt Russell which managed to retain some of the book's > atmosphere. Sorry, but you've got it backwards. McQuay's book is a novelization of the film, not 'tother way around. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 21:23:15-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SINS OF THE FATHERS > From: Steven J. Zeve > I believe the story about the aliens fleeing the galaxy with their > planets and all (stopping along the way to gather up the Earth), > is called "The Sins of the Fathers" by Stanley Schmidt. I > remember it being serialized in Analog and I remember that > gorgeous cover by Kelly Freas, but I am not certain about the > title/author (I'm in Pittsburgh now and all my books are in NJ). You are correct on both counts. It was serialized in ANALOG Nov-Jan, 1973-4. It was published in book form by Berkley in 1976. There was a sequel called LIFEBOAT EARTH, also published by Berkley (in 1978). This sequel originally appeared as a series of novelettes in ANALOG: "A Thrust of Greatness" (Jun 1976) "Caesar Clark" (Jul 1977) "Pinocchio" (Sep 1977) "Dark Age" (Dec 1977) "The Promised Land" (Jan 1978) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 09:12:58-PDT From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (DTN264-5090) Subject: A Correction > Also, Trumbull, NOT Dykstra, did the special FX for Star Trek- The > Motion Picture. Since Industrial Light & Magic has done both > STII-TWOK and STIII-TSFS, I assume Dykstra was involved in those. Both Trumbull AND Dykstra were brought in by Paramount to do the effects work on ST:TMP after they fired Robert Able Assoc. Trumbull was primarily responsible for the more ethereal effects like the V'ger cloud. Dykstra's people did most of the model work, like the Enterprise and the Vulcan ships. A lot of this had been started by the model shop at Magicam. Paramount originally wanted to use the Magicam process in the film. Able was probably responsible for botching that deal too. Syd Mead designed the V'ger entity, which Dykstra then built and shot. The work was very quickly thrown together....and at times it shows. The project was already far behind schedule, and had to be delivered to the theatres by the promised release date. I believe that all Able produced for the film was the 'smearing' effect of the 'wormhole' effect. Nothing else was usable, or shot at all. Looking carefully at the film, there are two very distinct styles to the execution of the effects. Had they had more time, pehaps Trumbull and Dykstra could have brought them a little closer. Randy Dearborn Digital Media Services Merrimack, NH (Facts gleaned from "Special Effects: Creating Movie Magic") ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 09:15:23-PDT From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (DTN264-5090) Subject: More Bond Trivia There are two versions of "Moonraker." Several early prints have a slightly different sound track. In the scene where Bond, while in Venice, punches a musical code into a combination lock, he originally played "Nobody Does it Better." Later, this was changed to the five famous notes from "Close Encounters." Either way, the scene worked pretty well, even though the number of notes on the track, didn't exactly fit the filmed footage. I think that the earlier version fits better with Bond's reaction shot, when he first hears the combination. The change to the CE3K music, to me was a cheap sell-out to capitalize on the popularity of another big name film. (Not unlike the ripped off line in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, from Buckeroo Banzai "Wherever you go, that's where you are.) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 85 22:38 EDT (Wed) From: Mijjil Subject: Bond trivia question okay, congrats to those who new that Blofeld is Ernst Stavro Blofeld. Part 2 - in the opening of "Diamonds Are Forever", which is one of the places you get to hear Blofeld's full name, James asks: "Where is Ernst Stavro Blofeld?" He asks this while beating up someone, naturally. So, where WAS Ernst Stavro Blofeld? {Mijjil} ------------------------------ Date: Mon 15 Jul 85 09:13:16-EDT From: Gern Subject: Music & SF The really cool tunes I am currently listening to on my Sony as I do my terminal work is Magnetic Fields by Jean Michael Jarre. I studied to it at college. He has several albums out: Magnetic Fields, Equinox, Zoo Look, Oxygene (sic). The music is complex, pure of tone, and completely synthesized, but does not sound or feel synthesized at all. To tie this in with SF: The background music of most of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy radio programs is that from the Oxygene album. If you get a chance, check them out. I think Magnetic Fields is the best. Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 15 Jul 1985 11:10:26-PDT From: lionel%orphan.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Steve Lionel) Subject: Science Fiction in music Alan Grieg restarted a discussion on Science Fiction in Music a few issues ago. Those of us who have been reading SFL for several years may recall this coming up before, but I'm sure there's a large turnover in the readership, so why not discuss it again. Anyway, Alan started a list of example songs, and included "David Bowie: Major Tom". Frequent and natural mistake - the Bowie tune that nearly everyone calls "Major Tom" is actually titled "Space Oddity". Still, I'd like to dredge up a point from the earlier discussion - please try to distinguish those songs which truly have a science fiction theme (of which "Space Oddity" is certainly an example) from those with "spacey" sounding titles. Steve Lionel P.S. Could we save a few megabytes of disk space by cutting down on the >>>>>>>>>> quotes in this digest? Don't be lazy - learn how to paraphrase! It really gets ridiculous to see FOUR levels of > in a message! ------------------------------ From: druri!clive@topaz.arpa (StewardCN) Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 15 Jul 85 21:01:34 GMT Ursula Le Guin has "An die Musik" in her short story collection, The Wind's Twelve Quarters. It's presumably not sf. Orson Scott Card did write the novel Songmaster (?title). I also really liked his short story (title forgotten) about Sugar, the prodigy who society tried to isolate so that his music wouldn't be corrupted by hearing another's, and later.... Spider Robinson did one about a rock singer wired for empathy. Samuel R. Delaney I believe used music in one of his short novels; the creature who would appear as a green archetypic figure, who told his story in folk-song fragments (poorly recalled). Also find something of musical sense in the premise and characters of Babel-17, nominally more about poetics/linguistics. And I don't think I have much time for sf or short stories. Must read more of both than I think. ------------------------------ From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@topaz.arpa (Cavewoman) Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 16 Jul 85 21:29:34 GMT > From: clive@druri.UUCP (StewardCN) > Ursula Le Guin has "An die Musik" in her short story collection, > The Wind's Twelve Quarters. It's presumably not sf. It's not. It's also in _Orsinian Tales_, not _WTQ_, if memory serves. Ellen Keyne Seebacher ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1 x9.xes%UChicago.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 20:37 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Science Fiction Music, sometimes known as filk Regarding Alan Grieg's query, and the responses that followed, on SF in (popular, mostly) Music, I'd like to say a few words about SF music, sometimes/commonly known as "filk". Some of the best writers/performers of this genre are Leslie Fish, Julia Ecklar, Juanita Coulson, Joey Shoji, Clif Flynt & Mary Ellen Wessels, the LA Filkharmonics (In space no one can hear you sing)... the list is VERY LONG. They sing about characters in books & stories, their own yearnings for space, the space program and its history (Minus Ten and Counting), and tell original stories in song. Some of the melodies are based on those in and out of the public domain, as have the folk process and Tom Lehrer and Alan Sherman done for years, some of the melodies are original. Some writers can sing, others shouldn't, some singers can't write, same as in music in general. I've written a few songs myself--it's not hard, even if I can't read music and don't have an instrument other than voice. There are publications tied in with this kind of music, there are conventions (at most sf cons there is space on the program for filking), there are regular meetings of filkers, and there are publishers of this kind of music. One of them is Off-Centaur Publications, P.O. Box 424, El Cerrrito CA (don't have the zip memorized). They carry more than filk, they carry a lot of folk, because sometimes the two entertwine. They have a catalog, send them a business-size SASE and a note and they'll send it to you. Marina Fournier Xerox Artifical Intelligence Systems Pasadena, CA ------------------------------ From: friedman@uiucdcs.Uiuc.ARPA Subject: Re: Shapechangers in ST/Space 1999 Date: 16 Jul 85 14:23:00 GMT > About the Suire of Gothos: He did NOT have outside power coming > in. But he DID need power from outside himself. You forget the scene in which Kirk temporarily thwarted the Squire by zapping the machines behind the mirror in his drawing room. He was out of business until he repaired them (during the commercial :-) ). ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 08:06:56-PDT From: wix%bergil.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jack Wickwire) Subject: ST/Doomsday Machine This is being forwarded through me to SF-LOVERS. All responses sent to me will be forwarded to the author. The "Star Trek" episode "The Doomsday Machine" was not written by Fred Saberhagen, but by Norman Spinrad. This always struck me as rather odd, since the episode is not at all in his style, insofar as I am familiar with it. But all reliable sources, including the credits for the episode itself, say he wrote it. PDDB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Jul 85 1418-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #273 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 273 Today's Topics: Music - SF and Music (13 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tellab3!thoth@topaz.arpa (Marcus Hall) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 15 Jul 85 22:30:47 GMT The song by Queen is called '39. It is on the album "A Night at the Opera". At least most of the words go like this: In the year of '39, assembled here the volunteers In the days when the lands were few. There the ship sailed out into the blue and sunny morn, Sweetest sight ever seen. And the night followed day, and the storytellers say of the score brave souls inside, Through many lonely day sailed across the milky sea, N're looked back, never feared, never cried Don't you hear my call, though you're many years away, Don't you hear me calling you. Write your letters in the sand for the day I take your hand In the land that our grandchildren knew. In the year of '39 came a ship in from the blue. The volunteers came home that day. And they bring good news of a world so newly born, though their hearts so heavily weigh. For the earth is old and grey, little darling went away, but my love this cannot be. Oh so many years have gone though I'm older but a year, your mother's eyes, from your eyes, cry to me. Don't you hear my call, though you're many years away, Don't you hear me calling you. Write your letters in the sand for the day I take your hand In the land that our grandchildren knew. Don't you hear my call, though you're many years away, Don't you hear me calling you. All your letters in the sand cannot heal me like your hand, For my life, still ahead, pity me. It's a favorite of many people I know. I didn't expect something like this from Queen, but supposedly Brian May, I believe, who wrote the song dabbles into astronomy. marcus hall ..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth <-Note: not the return address of this article! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 08:59 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: SF in music I'm glad to hear from other people who like music with SF overtones to it! I'll toss my two cents in to the growling likes of SF music: Planet P - Planet P Every song on this album has SF overtones to it - not mention I think it's a great album! Styx - the song "Come Sail Away" plus their entire Mr. Roboto album (I didn't really like Roboto that much, but it is SF). Hawkwind - Just about all of their songs have some form of SF theme to them. Kansas had quite a few songs with SF or fantasy overtones to them (primarily these came from their first 5 albums - which I also thought were their best ones). Rush - Every album I've ever listened to by Rush has some SF themed song and (as someone mentioned before) 2112 is entirely SF. I'm sure there are more that I know of but can't think of right now. I'll check my album collection and post any new discoveries if I find them! Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: skeoch@troa01.DEC Subject: Re: SF with musical themes Date: 16 Jul 85 23:04:12 GMT I have a couple of thoughts: Arthur C. Clarke wrote a short story (possibly found in "Tales from the White Hart") in which a guy uses a computer to analyze the most successful advertising jingles, and then design the perfect one. The perfect tune drives him insane... Somebody wrote about a spacehand who was blinded in an engine-room accident, and becomes a hobo-minstrel whose songs become famous throughout the system. Could it have been "Green Hills of Earth" ? In a related area, Spider Robinson's "Stardance" is an unusual combination of dance and science fiction. Some of his Callahan's Saloon stories have music-related plots, too. I'd like to know if anybody can confirm the hobo-minstrel story - was I even close? Ian Skeoch ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-troa01!skeoch ------------------------------ From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: SF with musical themes Date: 17 Jul 85 01:40:45 GMT >Somebody wrote about a spacehand who was blinded in an engine-room >accident, and becomes a hobo-minstrel whose songs become famous >throughout the system. Could it have been "Green Hills of Earth" ? Yes -- the author was Heinlein. An interesting point in fact following fiction: Selections of Heinlein's poetry from that story have frequently flown on space missions. We didn't have a poet of the spaceways when the story was written, but because of it, we do now. Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: SF in Music Date: 16 Jul 85 14:23:17 GMT I got in to this in the middle, so if I mention something that's already been mentioned, don't [b,f]lame me (one week of vacation, 374 aticles in sf-lovers alone, who could resist the temptations of the 'c' key...) Anyway, how about: "Nice, Nice, Very Nice" by Ambrosia -- a nice setting to music (with additional lyrics) of the 53rd Calypso of Bokonon (from Cat's Cradle by Vonnegut.) The whole first side of the very first Jefferson Starship album, "Blows Against the Empire." Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath) Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 16 Jul 85 23:10:02 GMT I haven't seen anyone mention this one yet. What about the Mule and his multi-sense instrument in the Foundation series? That would seem to qualify as music in SF. Spider Robinson's _Stardancer_ (?) also comes to mind. The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 85 16:00:41 GMT From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM Subject: Music in SF >I concur. And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging >conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of >written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One story that I haven't seen mentioned is: Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?) That particular story struck a...a...(no, I will not make an obvious pun here!!)...anyway, I really liked it. Anyone have any comments about it? ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1985 09:30-PDT From: king@Kestrel.ARPA Subject: music important in SF novellas? > And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging > conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of > written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One such might > be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, > _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_. >Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) One example that comes to mind, in which music is at least moderately important, is Windhaven (author forgotten). ****** SPOILER WARNING ****** The Windhaven society lives on a planet with a large number of small islands, and with sufficient steady wind to make high-tech hang gliders a satisfactory but somewhat hazardous means of transportation of people (and of messages via people). The society was seeded by a crashed solar-sail starship, whose sail was cut up to make the virtually indestructible, but losable at sea, gliders. Fliers wield considerable power, but singers also wield considerable power, there being few other forms of entertainment. Important protagonists include a person who wants to be a singer but who is required by society's rules to become a flier, and other singers, acting as propogandists at various junctures and lending color ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 85 09:35:49 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Music in SF Stories From: Peter Alfke An excellent sf story with music as a dominant theme: "Gotta Sing, Gotta Dance" by John Varley. This story concerns (1) companies that buy musical compositions (and other abstract artistic works) created by astronauts who spend years alone; and (2) a synthesizer that plugs into a human and uses body position and mental attitude to control the sound it creates. A really, really good story. It's in "The Barbie Murders" / "Picnic on Nearside". --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 12:46:11 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: SF and Music > And while we're on the subject, where in the real **HARD SCIENCE** > stories is music, or any of the arts? Do you consider Anne McCaffrey (sp?) "hard science"? "Hard science fiction"? Well, anyway, the arts certainly played an important part in her dragonrider trilogy, and even more so in her harper hall trilogy. The Masterharper was a very important person on Pern -- he and his underlings were the keepers of tradition and the individuals that inspired honor in the people of Pern. And (VERY mild SPOLIER HERE...) one of the major problems that Pern had was a lack of communication between generations because of a lack of written history. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ From: ihu1e!mjv@topaz.arpa (Vlach) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 17 Jul 85 18:25:24 GMT > Kraftwerk: Computerworld Everything I've ever seen by them was tech-related. "Radioactivity" is really good (for its time (~1975), it was amazing). "Man Machine" is in a similar vein to "Computerworld", and I would recommend all SF types to get ahold of these two albums. Basically they have good songs and also make lots of great noises that make one imagine robots and etc. ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan) Subject: SF Music: Hawkwind and FM Date: 17 Jul 85 15:21:11 GMT The DEFINITIVE SF music group is Hawkwind! (Well actually "Sci-Fi" would be more accurate -- their lyrics are very "pulpy", but it's good pulp!) I have 13 non-compilation studio albums by them, and they have more. Probably about 95% of their songs are SF related. Michael Morcock (the author) every now and then appears as a band member and writes lyrics for them. Their music is heavy underground British psychedelia (though for little while they did some punky and some new-wavish stuff). They have had since the early seventies a large and dedicated cult following in England. Another group that does a lot of SF stuff is FM, a Canadian band. It included at one time Nash The Slash, who is somewhat known as a solo artist (and who, by the way, is excellent). They are sometimes progressive rock and sometimes just good rock. Their best album is "Black Noise" and is entirely SF. They even have a song (on "Surveillance") about Sci-Fi rock called "Rocket-Roll". It is one of their sillier songs: Imagination is my closest friend I can turn it on and I am free The sights and sound that have no boundary This is the adventure that I need Sci-Fi Rock, Rocket Roll Here are a bunch of Hawkwind lyrics. These are from "Robot": You're a "Good Morning" machine You're a "How are you?" device ... Robot, Robot You are a robot, Robot You'd hold the whole world in your metal claws If it wasn't for The Three Laws of Robotics ... I am only a robot I am your slave I cannot harm you I can only obey The Three Laws "Spirit of the Age" from "Quark Strangeness and Charm": I would have liked you to have deep frozen too And waiting still as fresh in your flesh For my return to Earth But your father refused to sign the forms to freeze you Let's see, you'd be about sixty now And long dead by the time I return to Earth My time held dreams were full of you As you were when I left: still under-age Your android replica is playing up again It's no joke When she comes she moans another's name ... "Sonic Attack" from "Space Ritual": In case of sonic attack on your district, follow these rules: If you are making love, it is imperative to bring all bodies to orgasm simultaneously. Do not waste time blocking your ears. Do not waste time seeking a sound-proof shelter. Try to get as far away from the sonic source as possible. Do not panic. Do not panic. Use your wheels -- it is what they are for. Small babies may be placed in the special cocoons and if possible should be left in shelters. Do not attempt to use your own limbs. If no wheels are available, metal, not organic, limbs should be employed whenever possible. Remember, in the case of sonic attack, survival means every man for himself. Himself. Statistically, more people survive if they think only of themselves. Only themselves. Do not attempt to rescue friends, relatives, loved-ones. You have only a few seconds to escape. Use those seconds sensibly, or YOU WILL INEVITABLY DIE. Do not panic. Do not panic. Think only of yourself. Only yourself. Think only of yourself. Only yourself. These are the first signs of sonic attack: You will notice small objects, such as ornaments, oscillating. You will notice vibrations in your diaphram. YOU WILL HEAR A DISTANT HISSING IN YOUR EARS. YOU WILL FEEL DIZZY. YOU WILL FEEL THE NEED TO VOMIT. THERE WILL BE BLEEDING FROM ORIFICES. THERE WILL BE AN ACHE IN THE PELVIC REGION. You may be subject to fits of histerical shouting -- or even laughter. These are all signs of iminent sonic destruction. Your only protection is flight. If you are less than ten years old, remain in the shelters and use your cacoon. Remember, you can help no-one else. No-one else. You can help no-one else. No-one else. Do not panic. Do not panic. Do not panic. Do not panic. Think only of yourself. Only yourself. Think only of yourself. Only yourself. Think only of yourself. Only yourself. Think only of yourself. Great stuff, huh? -Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 13:57 PST From: Gary Palmer Subject: SF and Music On the subject of SF in music, how about Ambrosia (album of same name) the song "Time Waits for No-One". There are other songs on that album too, along with a beautiful rendition of that nonsense poem (I don't remember it's title) that starts "'Twas brillig and the slithy todes di gyre and gymble in the wake...". I believe this was from Carrols "Alice in Wonderland". Now I also wonder if people out there found in Netland have found popular authors writing lyrics for songs such as Kurt Vonegut Jr. writing the lyrics to "Nice, Nice, very Nice" on the same album by Ambrosia. In my 500+ albums, I can't seem to find any other writers doing the lyrics. Gary Palmer ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jul 85 1644-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #274 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 274 Today's Topics: Books - Laumer (2 msgs), Films - Dead Films & Mad Max, Music - SF and Music (2 msgs), Television - Space: 1999 & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Spoilers & FTL Travel & Autographs & Meeting Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 17 Jul 85 11:21:50-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Laumer Repackaging Sucks! I would like to second the recommendation of "Nine by Laumer" and mention that the current reissues of his work are grotesque repackaging jobs unworthy of the his writing. Beware of "Chresthomathy," which consists of short chunks of his novels and a few (heavily reprinted) short stories. Look out for the novel backed by "No Shipboots in Fairlyland," which has a deceptive copyright date (minor rewrite). In general, go for quality reissues of older works or used books (send him $.25 each for royalties if you feel guilty). Ignore his more recent books. In general, this repackaging craze has got to stop. First, all the damn TOR reissues of Poul Anderson stuff with snappy and misleading titles. Now, Baen is doing it with Laumer. It may be great for the authors (more advances) but it annoys the hell out of a faithful fan like myself. wz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 21:15 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: Keith Laumer Dave Pratt writes: >"End as a Hero" bears a copyright date of 1985. The overleaf does >not state (as is usually customary) that a portion of the story >appeared in different form quite some time ago. "End as a Hero" >was originally published as a short story in Galaxy Magazine >(copyright date 1963). The version now in the stores consists of >the original short story with minor modifications, plus 94 pages of >new lead-in and about 10 pages of new wrap-up. The seams between >the old and new material show... boy, do they show. The same thing is true of the latest Retief "novel." It's about half an old short story, with additional material grafted on in ways that make even less sense than a framing story. The short was pretty good, too. >In a posting to this meeting that I read this week, someone (sorry, >I'm too lazy to dig back and find out who) asked "What has happened >to Laumer recently?" or some such. I wish I knew, and that it >hadn't happened. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Laumer had a stroke some time ago. Can anyone confirm (or deny) this? (This may or may not have anything to do with his writing falling apart, tho. Other writers have managed to lose all skill without medical aid.) Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 21:44:43-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: EXTRACT > From: olivee!gnome@topaz.arpa (Gary Traveis) > That movie sounds pretty bad -- but I wanted to quickly add that > there will be Yet Another Dead Movie coming out soon that looks > like a pretty funny satire of the whole Dead scene. > > It's called _Return_of_the_Dead_ and (I think) includes Dan > Obannon among the people who put it together. There's an interesting story behind this. When George Romero and John Russo (director and writer, respectively, of NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD) decided to do a sequel, they couldn't see eye to eye on how to go with it. Romero ended up filming his idea as DAWN OF THE DEAD. Russo, who had a couple of horror novels under his belt by that time, wrote up *his* ideas as a novel, RETURN OF THE DEAD, published in paperback by Dale Books (can't recall the exact year, but I think it was 1979). There were plans to film Russo's novel, which didn't get realized until recently. So, the original NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD has two completely different direct sequels. (BTW, I got this story from George Romero himself at a World Fantasy Convention.) --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Filmography is my pastime"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 22:40:59 pdt From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Beyond the Thunderdome I disagree with Peter Reiher's review of Beyond The Thunderdome. The original Mad Max film was a very strong, emotional, highly depressing narrative, and probably the best such film I have ever seen. Beyond The Thunderdome, on the other hand, is a satirical pastiche of the last 5 years of film. I recognized episodes almost from Dune, Escape From New York, Star Wars, ET, the earlier Mad Max films, Lawrence of Arabia, Of Mice and Men.... One scene I don't yet understand has a fast, almost ludicrous cut to a full moon at night. Did this mean anything to anyone? I am no cinemaphile, but I would imagine, that like Varley's Demon, his Millenium, or some of Glen Cook's stuff, Beyond the Thunderdome is a "stage scene". The plot is not intended to be believable, or to stand on its own, and to judge it on these grounds is to miss the point. Judge it for its dramatic and emotional effect, and for the new ideas and questions with which you leave the theatre. I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe there aren't many fast cars but I liked it a lot anyhow. -s ------------------------------ From: icdoc!iwm@topaz.arpa (Ian Moor) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in music Date: 16 Jul 85 23:29:30 GMT One LP with at least one good SF track has to be Hawkwind's Quark,Strangeness and Charm - the vocalist has had his girl frozen while he is away in space: "Your android replica is playing up again, when she comes she moans another's name". Funny but none of the tracks sound like other Hawkwind stuff I've heard Ian W Moor Department of Computing Imperial College. 180 Queensgate London SW7 Uk. ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 16 Jul 85 18:21:23 GMT >> And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging >> conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of >> written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One such >> might be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, >> _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_. Well, there was a story by Arthur C Clarke, called _The_Ultimate_Melody_ (I think). It appeared in his collection _Tales_From_the_White_Hart_. BTW, did those stories by Clarke create the "tall tales in a bar" subgenre, or did someone else do it even earlier? ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!daar@topaz.arpa (ZNAC426) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 16 Jul 85 20:00:59 GMT >From: orstcs!richardt (richardt) >Regarding SPACE 1999: I stomached one episode at the age of nine. >The only reason that I watched the second half was that it gave me >an excuse not to do something less pleasant(?), though I can no >longer imagine what that could be (??). I watched 10 minutes of >another episode a few years later, on the off chance that I had >misjudged the series. I was totally correct in my initial >evaluation of the show (???). It doesn't even qualify as grade >'B'! I might give it an 'F' to prevent bodily injury (????). >Speaking in time travel tenses, the show /was not/will not/is not >worth the film it was circulated on, much les the production >costs!!!(?????) These episodes you saw must have been two of the bummers. Probably the anti-matter ones and in this case I must agree that they are not worth the film they are on. However can you really judge a whole series by 10 minutes of one? If I had seen S.T. the banal motion picture before the series would I have labeled it all as rubbish/garbage? Of course not (although the film was). I wasn't too turned on by the first Trek I saw which was THE ALTERNATIVE FACTOR and thought where's the appeal in this *#!# . This says to me that first impressions are very important but can change with time. I am finding it very difficult to watch V now and if it wasn't for the first few I wouldn't bother. What is funny is that some people insist that the show was a disaster and 'never came close' when in fact it made money and a second series was made, indicating that there was interest. The rest, sadly, is history. D. or is it? ------------------------------ From: wahid@dvinci.DEC (Parwez Wahid) Subject: Star Trek & science fiction convention Date: 16 Jul 85 21:14:19 GMT A science fiction media convention will be taking place on November 2-3 1985 at the Ramada Inn in East Boston off the McClellan Highway past Logan Airport. This convention is run by the Boston Star Trek Association, a group that has been in the area for about twelve years. This year marks the ninth anniversary of their convention. The con itself is not limited to Star Trek, although that topic is very much present in the programming. This years guests are Grace Lee Whitney who played Yeoman Janice Rand in "Star Trek". Also appearing are Robert Englund of "V" and Jonathon Banks of "Other World". (Banks was also in the movie BEVERLY HILLS COP as the henchman who killed Axel Foley's friend.) For further information send a self addressed stamped envelope to BSTA-BASH, P.O. BOX 1108, BOSTON MA 02103-1108. Parwez Wahid BRANDX::DVINCI::WAHID ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Jul 85 17:40:22-EDT From: Larry Seiler Subject: Spoilers I'm a little behind, but on the subject of SPOILERS: Yes, if the story is good, it is not completely spoiled no matter how much plot is given away. But I can only read a book (or see a movie) for the first time ONCE, can only be completely ignorant of what is coming up ONCE, and thank you, I don't want that one time taken away from me. Writing an intelligent review that doesn't give away the plot (at least past the first few pages/scenes) requires more effort than a simple plot summary (the reason many people don't attempt it) but is also generally more useful in terms of telling me if I want to read the book. Look through your TV guide and see just how stupid the two line plot summaries can make even the best show sound. The best example of a non-spoiler that I ever saw was a review of a mystery story by author X. The reviewer commented that story Y was flawed because the detective had to rely on a confession to prove who did the murder. The plot twist that the reviewer carefully avoided giving away was that it wasn't a murder at all - it was suicide! and in the end, the detective locates the suicide note that proves it. Now, if you know the values of X and Y, don't tell anyone - that would be a spoiler. Larry Seiler Seiler@MIT-XX ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jul 85 20:15 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: FTL Travel Cc: nessus@MIT-EDDIE.ARPA (Doug Alan) >From: nessus@mit-eddie (Doug Alan) >>From: franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) >> Stories assuming ftl travel generally (implicitly) assume that >> special relativity is wrong, that there is a preferred frame of >> reference, which approximates our own here on Earth. Admittedly, >> most do this because the author does not understand special >> relativity, Actually they do it for the sake of the story. >> BUT it is a consistent assumption -- just not very likely. >One would think that the Michelson-Morley experiment fairly well >ruled out this unlikely possibility nearly a hundred years ago! No, all it said was that for /light/ there was no prefered frame of reference. One can assume that there is some frame of reference (say, "hyperspace," altho one could just as well say "witch's brew"*) with respect to which one can travel at arbitrarily high velocities (using some magic device). As long as there is /only one/ such frame, there's no time travel. Incidentally, this violates the Principle of Relativity, but in a way that we can't check without the magic device. (E.g., in Niven's _Known_Space_ stuff, wherein the hyper-drive only works in space which is flat enough, i.e., past Pluto.) So it may not be terribly believable, but it is consistent with present knowledge. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jul 85 20:15 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Autographs In Digest #216, the subject of autographs was raised, and I'd like to add my two cents worth, now that I can finally grab the time to reply. At a bookstore (e.g., Change of Hobbit, Dangerous Visions), the manager/owner will often set a limit on # of books PER PASS through the line, especially if there are long lines anticipated (at a convention, a similar ruling may hold true). You might wish to call ahead for info. Sometimes the owner will make a differentiation based on whether you have purchased from the store at the time of the autograph party, any of the books you wish to get signed, such as 3 without purchase, 5 with purchase. Most bookstores will give you a receipt upon entry to differentiate your own books from those for sale. I think Wendel Phillips went to CoH, but DV also gives receipts. VERY SELDOM does an sf author specify that thon will only sign the book for which the autograph party is being held (usually a new publication). Many authors appreciate seeing different editions, or the breadth of your collection of thon's material. Also, don't be afraid to talk to the author about some aspect of the book being signed, if time permits, or to ask That Burning Question (esp. if no one else is asking it). Anne McCaffrey was suprised to find her works published in France, as she was not getting royalties for same. Larry Niven understood that many of his readers could not afford clothbound books in terms of price and shelfspace, and said he had ceased to be upset by the dearth of them in fannish collections. Roger Zelazny seemed surprised when I walked in with my entire collection of his work, but didn't complain. And on a final note, let me say that Dangerous Visions Bookstore in Sherman Oaks, Calif., will be holding an autograph party for Norman Spinrad to celebrate the publication of CHILD OF FORTUNE, on Saturday, August 3rd, from 2-5 pm. Please call 818/986-6963 for the limit on books. ------------------------------ From: ttidcb!jackson@topaz.arpa (Dick Jackson) Subject: Meeting Advanced Aliens Date: 16 Jul 85 16:52:01 GMT Wasn't it Fermi who asked about 40 years ago "If there are advanced races out there in the stars, where are they?" meaning that at least one star faring race should have explored the whole place by now and we should have seen them. There are several theories (human uniqueness, quarantine, etc) in answer to THE QUESTION; one that I haven't heard is that the first aliens to master space are totally zenophobic and when they detect industrial civilizations arising (via radio transmission) they come and wipe them, and soon us, out. Assuming this slightly pessimistic theory is incorrect, I find it interesting to speculate not on what THEY would come for, but upon what THEY would be like if considerably advanced relative to ourselves. E.g. with "IQs" of 1000. They would talk to us, and be bored a lot of the time in doing so I guess. Probably they would plan for very long-term goals . Human's plans are generally of the order of one year (multiply or divide by ten). Gorillas and dogs don't plan more than a few seconds ahead. I'm assuming that THEY are ahead of us in roughly the same ratio as we are ahead of gorillas. Presumably they would have concerns that we could not even comprehend, and therefore cannot now speculate about! Or can we? Anyone care to try? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jul 85 1708-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #275 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 275 Today's Topics: Books - Wilson (2 msgs), Films - Explorers & Charles Gray, Music - SF and Music (4 msgs), Television - Blake's Seven & Star Trek & Martin Landau, Miscellaneous - Cuteness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Comments on Colin Wilson Date: 17 Jul 85 03:16:16 GMT >From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst >I suppose I'm one of the "avid fans" of Colin Wilson's works that >Mark Leeper mentioned. While I like his work, I don't think he's >the greatest thing since indoor plumbing or whatever. He has his >flaws: he's opinionated, sexist, elitist (or, at least, he comes >across that way in his books). That covers my opinion. >So, a few corrections from someone who (thinks he) knows better: > >Wilson and August Derleth weren't friends until AFTER Wilson wrote >THE MIND PARASITES. Mark was right about the "Outsider"/OUTSIDER >connection. Wilson wrote a book (THE STRENGTH TO DREAM: LITERATURE >AND THE IMAGINATION), in one chapter of which he took Lovecraft to >task for HPL's own literary failings. Derleth read this and then >asked Wilson if he thought he could do a better job with the >Cthulhu Mythos. Wilson responded with THE MIND PARASITES, which >Derleth's Arkham House published. That is my bad memory again. You are right. I went back to the intro to MIND PARASITES and discovered I had combined the host and the challenger into a single person. Sorry. >BTW, when was Kirlian photography discredited? On what grounds? Don't quote me. My memory got me into trouble once already this article, but I think that I heard the effect had something to do with moisture or water vapor. In any case, the effects should be easily reproducible and hence could studied in the laboratory and I think we would have heard if there really was anything to this sort of spirit photography. >Mark, I'd be interested to know what 48 books came ahead of MIND >PARASITES in your local SF group's discussion, and why. Well, the list is, I think, lost at this point, but it was many from the list of most popular that showed up recently on the net. >I consider the book to be one of the most important Interesting word. Why "important?" >(and enjoyable) I've ever read; I certainly agree with enjoyable. Though few enough seem to agree with me. >I cannot recommend Wilson to many (those "specialized tastes", I >guess). Certainly, those readers who prefer outright escapism or >books sans self- critical protagonists won't like him. But if you >like sex, violence, magic, AND intelligent philosophy, give him a >try. Well said. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 00:25:21-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Comments on Colin Wilson > From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst > Of the three works Mark mentioned, I would agree that THE SPACE > VAMPIRES is the weakest. Then I have some good reading ahead of me. I first read THE SPACE VAMPIRES when it first came out in hardcover in 1976, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. I just re-read it after seeing LIFEFORCE and *still* enjoyed it. I've had his other two novels for years, but never got around to reading them. I'll try and work them into my reading schedule sometime soon. > While he plays fast-and-loose with the Cthulhu Mythos, he > certainly uses it in interesting ways. And, Mark, if you like > stories where magic is revealed to be unexplained science, you > should look up "The Return of the Lloigor" in TALES OF THE CTHULHU > MYTHOS. Again, it plays fast-and-loose, but Derleth thought it > good enough to include in that collection (even if it does > "reinterpret" one of his own Mythos additions, Lloigor), and it is > in some sense a forerunner of MIND PARASITES. Actually, THE SPACE VAMPIRES is also a "fast-and-loose" Mythos story. The vampires called themselves the Ubbo-Sathla, which was a contribution to the Mythos by Clark Ashton Smith. Wilson's usage wasn't quite what Smith had in mind, but... --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: dataio!bright@topaz.arpa (Walter Bright) Subject: Re: Explorers -- a pico review. Date: 13 Jul 85 18:37:48 GMT gnome@oliveb.UUCP (Gary Traveis) writes: >From Joe Dante (Gremlins) comes a cute, fun, science fantasy about >a three kids who are given the key to interplanetary travel. After >some local mischief, the three (a street-kid, a sf-type, and a >student brainiac) head off to discover the answers to life, the >universe, and everything from an unseen all-knowing alien race. I thought the second half was totally stupid and dull. By the way, where does a 9-volt battery get the energy required to dig 5' diameter holes in the ground? I wish some of these sci-fi movie directors would take a basic course in physics, or hire a consultant to help them avoid the more obvious screwups. And don't wave the 'but it's supposed to be fun' at me, I think these glaring problems are due to laziness on the part of the director, and are not necessary to the plot. A good sci-fi plot is one that takes ONE assumption (such as aliens beaming technology into a kid's brain) and logically builds on that assumption. Continually trotting out absurdities out of convenience shows a lack of imagination on the part of the director, and is insulting to watch. Good sci-fi is not necessarilly preposterous, as an example take a look at Arthur Clarke's novels (BTW, he holds a doctorate in physics), and the novels that Niven and Pournelle collaborated on. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Helicopters... Date: 24 Jul 85 05:22:54 GMT From: askme%e.mfenet@LLL-MFE.ARPA >As for the narrator in Rocky Horror, Charles Grey, he was in some >Bond flicks, but he didn't play Q, he was the dreaded Ernst Stravos >Blofeld! Gray was indeed Blofeld in DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER. He was also in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE as a friendly agent who is knifed in the back through a paper Japanese wall. Other film credits for him were as the villian, Mocata in the 1968 THE DEVIL RIDES OUT (aka THE DEVIL'S BRIDE). He has played Mycroft Holmes, I think it was in THE SEVEN PERCENT SOLUTION. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: stuart@webstr.DEC Subject: sci-fi in music/music in sci-fi Date: 17 Jul 85 11:48:09 GMT all this talk of sci fi in music prompted me to do a scan of my album collection for things of like nature, and here's what i came up with ... some of the examples may be stretching it a bit, but isn't sci fi all about using your imagination? rush: 'red barchetta', on _moving_pictures_. based on the story 'a nice morning drive' by richard s. foster. all about getting in a motorcar (forbidden in this postulated future), and getting chased by large what-seem-to-resemble-hovercraft for enjoying the ride. if anyone can point me to foster's story. i'd really appreciate the tip. tubes: 'attack of the fifty foot woman', on _completion_backward_ principle_. weren't there a few fifties movies on this topic? blue oytser cult: 'black blade', on _extraterrestrial_live_. seems to me to be based on the elric series by michael moorcock. bowie: _space_oddity_, the whole album. just about everyone's heard of major tom, no? and let's not forget bowie's film, _the_man_who_fell_to_earth_. elo: 'mission (a world record', on _a_new_world_record_. watching the days go by on an insignificant street corner of an insignificant city on an inconsequential continent on a planet revolving around a sun in the backwaters of the western spiral arm of a rinky-dink galaxy about as far away from the action as one can get, and not being able to do a whole lot about it. utopia: 'winston smith takes it on the jaw', on _oblivion_. a rendition of the classic _1984_. in addition, the album _adventures_in_utopia_ is rumored to actually be the soundtrack to a video production of todd rundgren and his cohorts on a voyage through space in search of utopia. if anyone can point me toward *that*, i'll give my eye teeth. going the other way ... there are lots of stories where music palys an important role, but there are the only ones i could find on-hand with the central theme being music. heinlein: 'searchlight', in _the_past_through_tomorrow_. a blind girl lost on the moon is found due to her perfect pitch. saberhagen: 'starsong', in _the_berserker_wars_. a man attempts to retrieve his wife from a berserker, and almost succeeds bacause his music softens the human elements the berserker had built into itself. steve stuart internet: webstr%stuart.dec@decwrl ------------------------------ From: rsk@pucc-k (Wombat) Subject: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 18 Jul 85 04:23:06 GMT Spurred by the ongoing discussion in net.sf-lovers about sf references in (mostly pop) music, I'd like to assemble a list of such references; of course I'll post it to the net eventually. If you've got such a reference in mind, please send it along, including a (short) explanation of what the piece refers to; for instance: Led Zeppelin, "The Battle of Evermore", Led Zeppelin IV. -- mentions the Ringwraiths of Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" 1. Please note that references to music in sf are something entirely different. 2. Credit for the idea goes to Alan Greig . 3. I think we can take the collected works of Hawkwind as a given. Rich Kulawiec rsk@{pur-ee,purdue}.uucp, rsk@purdue-asc.csnet rsk@purdue-asc.arpa or rsk@asc.purdue.edu ------------------------------ From: sdcc3!valerie@topaz.arpa (Valerie Polichar) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 15 Jul 85 18:05:23 GMT Many of Anne McCaffrey's works (such as _Crystal_Singer_) have music and music-making (esp. singing) as a dominant theme. This is at least partially because Ms. McC was herself a student of voice for about ten years before she became a professional writer. Valerie Polichar ...sdcsvax!sdcc3!valerie ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!lum@topaz.arpa (Lum Johnson) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 14 Jul 85 20:29:00 GMT freeman@spar.UUCP (Jay Freeman) writes: >>Alan%DCT.AC.UK%DUNDEE.AC.UK@ucl-cs.ARPA writes: >>I've seen many forms of SF discussed ... [except] ... music, either >>its SF content or ... [influence] ... on ... SF writing. > [A]s an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging > conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of > written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One such might > be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, > _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_. Another might be Ann Maxwell's _The_Singer_Enigma_. The cover blurbs do no justice to the book, which is just as well, since the potential damage to a "mysterious origins" story from detailed blurbs would be quite substantial. The development of alien culture here is excellent, including the recent impact of a new technology of instantaneous (but limited) teleportation and its tightly controlled ownership (reminiscent of the expected effects of the oil cartel that recently failed). If you can apprectiate sf mystery novels, this may be for you. Music, per se, has little to do with the story, but singers, very talented singers indeed, do. Lum Johnson ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum or lum@osu-eddie.uucp ------------------------------ From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Blake's Seven Date: 17 Jul 85 13:57:03 GMT > From: Michi Wada > Blake's Seven will be seen in the U.S. starting this fall. Some > of the stations who will be showing them are > > Santa Fe, N.M. ch. 2 local commercial station > New Hampshire ch. ? PBS station > San Jose, Calif. ch. ? PBS station > Bellingham, Wash. ch. 12 ? > > There are other stations who will be showing them, but my friend > couldn't recall the rest of the list. It may be showing in > Philadelphia, but it hasn't Will your friend be able to get a copy of the list and have you post it on the net? I think that a lot of people would like to know if BLAKE'S SEVEN will be shown in their area. Please try. Kenneth Crist kwc@cvl Computer Vision Lab University of Maryland ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Re: Space 1999, UFO, et al Date: 17 Jul 85 15:28:10 GMT richardt@orstcs.UUCP (richardt) writes: >About shapechangers in Star Trek. Besides Garth, there were the >two 'magicians.' I don't remember the name of the episode, but >Sulu, McCoy, Kirk, Spock, and a few Red-shirts were captured by >shapechanged aliens. At the end of the show they turned out to be >small, blue green critters that were a cross between a starfish, an >amoeba, and a chicken. As has already been mentioned, this episode was "Catspaw." However, the aliens were not, as I recall, shape-changers. Rather, they cast illusions of various forms, while actually retaining their own forms. Muffy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 07:32 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Martin Landau trivia The San Jose Mercury News just ran a TV trivia bit that included such gems as "did you know that Dr McCoy's medical instruments were really salt and pepper shakers?" Now any Trekker knows that, but I didn't know that they originally asked Martin Landau to play Spock. It makes sense, since I've never really seen him show emotions, but aren't we lucky? Who would direct the movies? Would girls have loved him so much? Can you imagine Landau zapped by the spoors and hanging from a tree, laughing like a human? I just think it's as good as James Cann turning down the role of Superman because he wouldn't be caught dead in those blue tights. Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"... Date: 16 Jul 85 18:15:01 GMT >From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) > Friends of mine have complained about the various traps used to > trash the imperials, viz., how could they build them in such a > short time? I assumed, naturally enough, that there are large > predators on the planet, that we never see, on which they use > things like the swinging logs (that was a good one!) I assumed that the traps were already set up; they could not have been built in that short a time. But it takes very little imagination to believe that they were already set up. Given their background, the Imperials probably hunted the Ewoks for sport. If I were an Ewok, this would get me to build traps and defenses. What I find hard to believe is that the Imperials would build a fighting machine which walks on two legs, and when it trips and falls down, it blows up! Military equipment has to be sturdy, not fragile. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Jul 85 1740-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #276 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 19 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 276 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Sturgeon & Varley, Miscellaneous - FTL (3 msgs) & Cuteness (2 msgs) & Alien Visitors & Time Control ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cstvax!br@topaz.arpa (Brian Ritchie) Subject: Looking for `Shockwave Rider' Date: 18 Jul 85 12:43:04 GMT Ever since I borrowed a copy of `Shockwave Rider' (by John Brunner) from a Canadian friend, I've been trying to find a copy for myself, but to no avail. Even the good old Edinburgh SF Bookshop is letting me down! Does anyone know where I could get a copy (preferably new, but if you've got one too many, name your price...)? Please reply by mail (if you can). Getting my own Shockwave Rider would make my year! Many adthanksvance, Brian Ritchie. PS - With all these new prints of `Zanzibar' and `The Sheep Look Up' (in Britain at least), does anyone know if a new print of SR is planned, and if so, when? ------------------------------ From: bunkerb!mary@topaz.arpa (Mary Shurtleff) Subject: Re: Short stories and bibliography request Date: 18 Jul 85 12:17:25 GMT > From: Glen Daniels >In your opinion, what are the BEST SF shorts? I would really like >to have a consensus of votes from the SF-Lovers people, to see >which ones I should watch for that I haven't seen yet, if for no >other reason... Try "Slow Sculpture", by Theodore Sturgeon. It's not a high-action, hard-science kind of story, but exceptionally well-written. I found the language and characters to be evocative and moving. M. Shurtleff decvax!ittvax!bunker!bunkerb!mary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 09:09 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: characters in John Varley's stories I just recently read "Press Enter" by John Varley. I thought it was a quite good story, but it reminded me of something I had noticed about Varley's stories a few years ago when I read The Persistance of Vision (the entire short story collection, not just the story). Since this is the only Varley I've read, please forgive me if his other fiction doesn't share this trait. I'm speaking of the age of the male characters compared to that of the female characters. Varley's men are almost always twice (or more) the age of the women they end up with. In "Press Enter" the main character was 50 and the girl was 25. In Persistance of Vision I believe the main character was about 25 and the girl was around 13 (it's been about 5 or 6 years). All through TPoV collection I noticed this. It's not something I mind, it's just something I found curious... Has anyone else noticed this or am I just imaging it? Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 01:20:12 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: FTL travel >Rick Coates says: >The reason that faster-than-light is acceptable is that it is >explained, and has rules. This includes reactionless thrusters I believe, if you will check, you will find that the reactionless drive in Niven's Known Space universe has nothing to do with the FTL drive in the same universe. I do not recall that his FTL drive was ever explained there. >From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan) >The use of faster-than-light travel in almost all SF is pretty >assinine, because almost no SF story considers the full effect that >a faster-than-drive would have on the world . . . According to >Special Relativity, faster-than-light travel is exactly equivalent >to traveling backwards in time. (This is similar to the way in >which Special Relativity equates mass and energy as being exactly >the same thing.) >>From: franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) >>Stories assuming ftl travel generally (implicitly) assume that >>special relativity is wrong, that there is a preferred frame of >>reference, which approximates our own here on Earth. Admittedly, >>most do this because the author does not understand special >>relativity, BUT it is a consistent assumption--just not very >>likely. > >One would think that the Michelson-Morley experiment fairly well >ruled out this unlikely possibility nearly a hundred years ago! >> From: Peter Alfke >> Actually, according to Special Relativity, faster-than-light >> travel is just plain impossible. All the sqrt(v^2 / c^2) terms >> turn imaginary . >No. Special Relativity just says that you can't accelerate through >the speed of light. It doesn't say you can't travel faster than >the speed of light. Haven't you ever read any of the stuff on >tachyons? The tachyon theory is completely consistent with Special >Relativity. They always travel faster than light, and they travel >backwards through time. > >Something might come along that might be more general than Special >Relativity . . . but it's incredibly unlikely that anything will >ever contradict Special Relativity. Haven't any of you guys ever heard of Stephen Hawking??? As a mere biologist, I will not attempt to summarize any part of his theories, but he says (and all the Smartest Physicists say he is better'n Einstein) that Special Relativity is only good under local conditions. [Among other things.] >From: Evan Kirshenbaum >I'm sure this shows a shocking naivitee on the subject of >relativistic physics, but this argument never made much sense to >me. So what if the multiplier turns imaginary. . . . I've always >been surprised that physicists would throw up their hands at this >and say "it's impossible" rather than finding out just what the >consequences of having imaginary mass, velocity and time would be. I believe those "consequences" are tachyons. The problem is to accelerate *through* the lightspeed barrier, as Doug Alan stated above. I've seen no mention of the "Alderson Drive", which is a theory specifically constructed for Pournelle by a good theoretical physicist to be a plausible fictional theory of a FTL drive. It assumes the "rubber sheet" universe, but it also assumes some means of repulsion to whatever local gravitational anomaly one happens to be orbiting, which causes an effectively instantaneous transport to the next gravitational anomaly, along some lines of least resistance. I have also noticed occasional denigration of *Analog*. If all you guys read it, you might be more up to date on theories. Sure, it takes some effort to read some of the articles, but you get out what you put in (just like reading *Scientific American*). TANSTAAFL! ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: FTL travel Date: 17 Jul 85 23:30:00 GMT >I'm sure this shows a shocking naivitee on the subject of >relativistic physics, but this argument never made much sense to >me. So what if the multiplier turns imaginary. Imaginary numbers >have rights too. >Evan Kirshenbaum Really! The subsonic aerodynamics equations will produce complex results if you try to put supersonic speeds in them. So of course everyone used to say that it was impossible to fly at supersonic speeds. The problem is that the subsonic equations include implicit assumptions about such things as how incompressible air is, and those assumptions do not hold for supersonic speeds. If you use the correct equations, transonic and supersonic flight are just dandy. It seems reasonable to me that the same sort of thing could be true of faster-than-light speeds, i.e., we are making assumptions on this side of the barrier about physical conditions on the other side that could be quite wrong, but then I want to believe we can break the light barrier. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 18 Jul 1985 06:49:02-PDT From: vickrey%lite.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: FTL Debate FTL arguments always remind me of an SF short I read many years ago. The Martian government, alarmed by the rapid and seemingly psychotic technological development of the ape-primitives on Earth, forbid said monkeys, on pain of planet-wide nuking, to do any kind of space flight development. The name of the story was LOOPHOLE. Nuff said. The Theory of Special Relativity is inarguably correct. But it's not necessarily the end of the argument. Any physicist who thinks otherwise should switch to a field that does not require original thinking, like . Susan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 6:35:47 EDT From: "John f. Hardesty" Subject: Ewoks and cute In response to all this hullaballo about the `cuteness` of a creature in science fiction stories. The Ewoks are `cute` to use because we always associate anything that we have not seen before with something that we are familiar with. That is, the Ewoks of Star Wars remind us of teddy bears because when we were young we were told stories about cute cuddly teddy bears and the like. The same goes for the Hokas and the Fuzzies (gashta). As to the ability of the Ewoks to be unseen by the Imperial Stormtrooper, you must be aware that the world is forest covered with tall trees and the like; the Ewoks can hide from anyone if they wanted to. As to their technological backwardness defeating the `might ` of the Stormtroopers, a corollary to one the Murphy laws state (paraphrased) - Any technological advanced weapon will have more things go wrong - induced or natural declination - in a direct relation to the number of moving parts. Or - A rock will misfire less than a rifle but both can kill so which is better. Or - A three dollar part with bring the downfall of a three million dollar weapon. Besides, the Ewoks could have wreaked havoc on the Stormtroopers as long as the stormtroopers did not destroy the Ewoks naturals defense - forest. And natural weapons are easier to fix and replace than technological weapons. John Hardesty jhardest@bbncct.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed 17 Jul 85 14:50:19-PDT From: DEKEMA%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Soft cute/nasty fuzzy things Of course "Ewok" isn't "Wookie" spelled backwards! But try spelling it sideways (a few letters are bound to fall off)! Jeannie Hobbs :) (using Jan Dekema's account) ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 1985 14:15:04-EDT From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: What an advanced race would come far to get.... I just tuned in to SF-Lovers yesterday after several weeks away and was rather surprised to see the discussion about What an Advanced Race Would Come Far to Get still going on, albeit somewhat in a somewhat diluted form. It also seemed to me that one of my earlier comments had been misinterpreted, so I'd like to reiterate & clarify, if I may. The discussion began when someone (I forget who) was criticizing the TV series "V" and asserted something like the following: "... there's only one thing that an advanced race would cross interstellar space to get, and it certainly isn't water. It's slaves." Now there are really two assertions there, one about the value of water to an advanced race, the other about the value of slaves to same. I questioned both assertions, & still do, and it was these assertions I wished to talk about, NOT the series "V". In response to the first assertion, I wrote: > 1) If you're running out of water, and you don't have the > resources to reclaim it or manufacture it, then you've only one > option open to you: go get some more! And believe me, you'll go > whatever distance it takes to get it! I still stand by this. What other choice does a race have, but extinction? Note, however, that this still does not explain why someone would try to get water from Earth as opposed to the rings of Saturn, once they've arrived in our solar system. Saturn seems a much better source (though contaminants might prove a problem; we'll hopefully see in the not-too- distant future). In questioning the assertion about slavery, I wrote something like: Would slaves have any value at all to an advanced race? At some point, machine labor becomes cheaper & more efficient than slave labor, & once a race has passed this point, what use would they have for slaves? Of course one might argue that this applies only to physical labor, & perhaps they'd have use for intelligent slaves in other sorts of labor (nightmare scenario: aliens kidnap the entire human race & make accountants of us all!). I have to stand by this too; I've yet to see a convincing line of reasoning to the contrary. (Please remember that I'm not really discussing the TV series "V" here, but rather the more general assertions I delineated above.) Is anyone familiar with any novels or stories in which the taking of human (or other sentient) slaves by an advanced race is treated with some degree of depth? I can't recall any right off-hand. If so, what reasons are presented for such activities? An interesting possibility occurs to me. Imagine a race whose evolution has been similar to that of Vulcans, from an emotional & violent past to a very cold & rational present. But this race has gone even further; they've lost emotion to the extent that they are now totally unable to create art. However, they can still appreciate it, and works of art from their distant past are highly treasured. What would happen if such a race discovered humanity as we currently are? Might they take us as slaves, forcing us to create artworks for them? Would such a scheme work? Would the kidnapped humans create great art? Perhaps so, if suffering contributes to great art. Or would they turn out trash? Would the aliens know the difference? Has anyone read anything like this? Regards, Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 17 Jul 1985 13:51:48-PDT From: feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jim Feldman @KS1 DTN 523-4498 From: NEXUS::FELDMAN) Subject: time and time again... As long as we're on the subject of time control... There is a novel about a "draftee" who fights in a war where the distances involved are great and FTLD is used. The problem is that the Earth ages 100-200 years between shore leaves and by the time the war is over almost 800 years have passed on earth. Society has drastically changed and so they set up a colony for vets that is like the one they originaly left. During one of his early shore leaves, he meets a woman who "waits" for him on a relativistic shuttle that operates to keep in synch with the solders. She finally gets off when he is mustered out to the colony, at the same subjective age as he is. (author and title unknown but I'm sure someone can put their finger on it) The other is the classic Twillight Zone where this guy has a stop watch. The catch is that when the watch stops so does all the world except him. First he just plays a few pranks while the world is "stopped". Then he robs a bank. While robbing the bank, he of course drops the watch and can't restart the world as he sees it. sorry if these have already appeared Jim Feldman DEC - Colorado Springs ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jul 85 1935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #277 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 277 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Good Short Stories (2 msgs), Films - Film Fantasies (2 msgs) & Spielberg & Explorers & Escape From New York, Music - SF and Music (2 msgs), Television - Star Trek & Space: 1999 (2 msgs) & Dubbed Laughter, Miscellaneous - Alien Visitors (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Re: Review of _Bearing_an_Hourglass_ Date: 11 Jul 85 16:55:56 GMT > One last note. At the end of each book, Anthony has an >"Author's Note". He discusses his motivations and what he is >currently doing and where he got some of his ideas. The Note after >OPH was especially interesting, since he described his own brush >with Death. One could clearly see the influence of his day-to-day >life on his writing. In keeping with my statements above, I can't >remember anything about the Note in BAH. > > {backbone}ihnp4!bellcore!b2 I can't hold back on this one. I have rarely been more put off by anything I read than I was by the afterword to On A Pale Horse. It was bad enough that, on reading it I felt it was slow in places, but he had to go on and tell me that he had padded it--mostly in places I thought were slow. I read the book and decided it was a good read. Then he put in this afterword explaining that it was really a better book than I, the reader, thought it was. And, to top it off, he explained that he was writing the afterword becuase the book was still too short. In some sense, it is refreshing to see a writer who is not troubled by the smallest hint of integrity, but all in all it was the most disgusting thing of its sort I have read since David Gerrold's preface to Diane Duane's first novel. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Short stories and bibliography request Date: 19 Jul 85 03:16:41 GMT mte@busch.UUCP (Moshe Eliovson) writes: > For short stories, nothing beat Lin Carter's Best of >Fantasy and Flashing Swords. Thieves' World #1 was hearty as well. If you like Theives' World, I just found an anthology in a similar vein that people ought to really like. It is called "Liavek" and is edited by Will Shetterly and Emma Bull. It includes stories by people like Gene Wolfe, Jane Yolen, and Barry Longyear. The best story in the book was, I think, "An Act of Contrition" by our dear friend SZKB, but all of the stories are of high quality. From the ex-USENET fascist: Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Short stories and bibliography requ Date: 19 Jul 85 01:51:00 GMT I strongly agree with the recommendation for Lafferty's *Nine Hundred Grandmothers*. "Land of Great Horses" and the title story are very good. Lafferty likes to play with reality, but they are generally spiritual realities rather than P.K.D.'s drug-induced alternate realities. On the dark side, Ray Bradbury's *Long After Midnight* collection has a very good title story, as well as my favorite Halloween story, "The October Game." One of my favorite writers of short stories is a little harder to find, though. John Collier wrote more horror and dark fantasy than science fiction, but he always wrote it well. "Evening Primrose," "Bottle Party," "The Touch of Nutmeg Makes It," "The Lady on the Gray," and "Thus I Refute Beelzy" are good things to start with. Most of his short stories are in two collections, *The Best of John Collier* and *Fancies and Goodnights*. James Tiptree, Jr. writes good hard SF short stories. Frederic Brown wrote a lot of bizarre stories. Try the collection *Paradox Lost*. An excellent time travel story is "Vintage Season" by Henry Kuttner and C.L. Moore. Find a copy of *The Best of Henry Kuttner*. I don't remember if it has "Vintage Season," but it should have "Mimsy Were the Borogoves," "Nothing But Gingerbread Left," and a Gallagher story or two. Both Brown and Kuttner write good comedy. Another hilarious story is Larry Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex," probably in *All the Myriad Ways*. For the random story, any volume of Terry Carr's *The Best Science Fiction of the Year* will always have something good. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 85 08:49:14 PDT (Wed) From: Don Rose Subject: your film fantasies First of all, let me say I just starting reading sf-lovers bboard and find it fantastic - well-written, fun, informative, etc. Since I am a closet writer (who isn't) - esp. of screenplays - let me start my involvement with the net by asking anyone/everyone to spout off on what things they always wanted to see in films (esp. SF-related) - your visual fantasies, if you will. I think the results should be interesting and enjoyable for all. (A related question: what do most people out there feel will work/sell today - e.g. people may have opinions on outdated/overworked genres, or genres due for a revival, a la the current return-of-the-Western.) Looking forward to your replies...... Donald Rose (P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?) ------------------------------ To: Don Rose Subject: Re: your film fantasies Date: 17 Jul 85 09:08:25 PDT (Wed) From: Jim Hester Depends on what you define as a Sci Fi Western, but Westworld (+sequels) and Star Wars immediately come to mind, for different reasons. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jul 85 09:13:27 PDT (Wed) From: Don Rose Subject: spielberg-produced films Cc: hester@uci-icse People have been mentioning how Spielberg-produced films seem to be going downhill as of late, and others said that "Back to the Future" is a welcome step back to Steven's normally high quality (the latter being his latest produced-but-not-directed film). I agree with both opinions. However, I think people should not forget the DIRECTORS of these boy-wonder-produced films. Case in point: Bob Zemeckis, director of "B-t-t-Future", is a wonderful director who has made only hip, witty, winning films since I can remember (e.g. Romancing the Stone). In addition, Zemeckis co-wrote the script, and I have an informal heuristic in my head which says that films having the same director and writer usually are carefully made, and are successful (and are, most importantly, good films). Donald Rose (ICS Dept., U.C. Irvine, Irvine CA 92715) P.S. Spielberg is the cover story for this week's TIME magazine; excellent pieces about his life (in his words), and touches on Goonies and B-t-t-future. ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@topaz.arpa (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: "Explorers" Date: 16 Jul 85 18:50:19 GMT Lightweight, but I enjoyed it. Did anyone else notice "rosebud" amoung the junk at the junk yard? Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 10:03 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Escape From New York What's all this talk about Snake Plisken? Isn't he dead? ------------------------------ From: druxo!knf@topaz.arpa (FricklasK) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 18 Jul 85 17:59:11 GMT A couple of other sci-fi related songs are: Children of the Sun (I don't remember who by) about the landing of aliens on the earth. I seem to recall a few of the other songs on this album were also realted to this topic. The entire "I Robot" album by the Alan Parsons Project. A song about video games on a recent Lou Reed album. And about half the songs David Bowie came out with between 1969 and 1976. Ken PS sorry if anyone's already mentioned some of these. ------------------------------ From: cstvax!br@topaz.arpa (Brian Ritchie) Subject: Re: Music & SF (Hitchhikers music) Date: 24 Jul 85 15:44:46 GMT >From: Gern >To tie this in with SF: The background music of most of The >Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy radio programs is that from the >Oxygene album. Are you sure about this? I didn't recognise any J-M Jarre music in the radio series (then again, I only know `Oxygene'). I understood that most of the music was written and performed under the auspices of the BBC's Radiophonics Workshop. It often sounded akin to Jarre's rambling doodles, but Oxygene it sure was not. (Maybe we've heard different radio shows....). -- Brian Ritchie. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Yet more 1999. Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT The other episode that was banned was RETURN TO TOMMORROW in which Kirk lends his body to some alien for some reason. A bit too much like possession? Andy T. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Yet more 1999. Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT With reference to UNLIMITED EAGLES. "The Eagle is one of several classes of interplanetary spacecraft... ..constructed by the Engineering and Technics section of Moonbase Alpha using materials and components either shipped from Earth or MANUFACTURED ON THE MOON." Q.E.D. from STARLOG #7 Anyone care to comment on unlimited fuel? Andy T. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: How to fix bad SF and also 1999. Date: 16 Jul 85 13:35:55 GMT A while back someone said 1999 should win an award for the highest density of illogic...Not so! This award must go to the DR WHO episode TERMINUS. The plot involved the whole universe being created by one spaceship dumping its fuel.(????) And whats more it may do so again.(Heavy). TOMMORROW IS YESTERDAY would be in the running with lines like "The whiplash propelled us into a time warp.." etc. Pseudo-Science that would make even a 1999 fan wince. ALL the problems associated with 1999 itself were due to the scripts. This covers the over emphasised scientific errors which could have been avoided by just explaining the actions with more pseudo-science in the good old TREK/WHO tradition. The show had no scientific adviser to explain the rule bending and correct that which was wrong. Couple this with a producer who insists on removing all the good lines and you get left with such mediocure results. Nonetheless some episodes were very good and well done. Have the people who are so scornfull either forgotten or not seen such episodes as: DRAGON'S DOMAIN,END OF ETERNITY,ANOTHER TIME ANOTHER PLACE Another problem it faced was no fault of its own. I refer to the obvious closed mindedness shown by viewers and particularly some TREKKERS who love TREK to the exclusion of all else. I can't understand this attitude and find it quite possible to love both series equally without destructively comparing one against the other. Both shows had good and bad points. Andy T. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Yet more 1999. Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT With reference to DUBBED LAUGHTER. I tried dubbing laughs but see no added appeal in 1999, but some rock music over the action sequences works well. I'm sure laughter would work on the TREK episode PLATO'S STEPCHILDREN as it is sorely needed. This episode took itself seriously but was very funny. At a recent college showing for Charity of this and other BBC banned episodes, this episode brought the house down whilst people thought WHOM GODS DESTROY to be corny. Andy T. ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: what an advanced race would ... Date: 18 Jul 85 22:33:42 GMT > Not too long ago, Someone mentioned that Hydrogen and Oxygen were > two of the most common elements in the universe. Therefore, why > invade a defenseless Earth to get (possibly polluted) water? They > forgot one major fact: Most of that hydrogen is tied up in stars. > Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to go and skim a > star for hydrogen any time soon. Especially Rigel! Sorry. I forgot the name of this poster...at any rate: Something like 98% of the matter in the Universe is hydrogen. There are hydrogen nebulae, hydrogen atmospheres, and just plain ol' free hydrogen floating around with nothing to do. You really don't have to go near Rigel. (Why Rigel, anyway? It's a pretty boring star....) Incidently, in the past ten years, there has been several findings of actual H20 nebulae...no one would have to go to a planet to bother anyone... ...so you see, water (or its components) are everywhere...so V is still silly... --- Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: what an advanced race would ... Date: 16 Jul 85 17:53:35 GMT richardt@orstcs.UUCP (richardt) writes: >Not too long ago, Someone mentioned that Hydrogen and Oxygen were >two of the most common elements in the universe. Therefore, why >invade a defenseless Earth to get (possibly polluted) water? They >forgot one major fact: Most of that hydrogen is tied up in stars. >Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to go and skim a star >for hydrogen any time soon. Especially Rigel! Maybe most of the hydrogen is tied up in stars (this isn't quite clear, since we don't know exactly how much non-stellar material is floating around in the universe. But we do know certain minimums.) But if you leave out the stars entirely, and count only non-stellar matter, hydrogen is still the most common material in the universe -- probably a larger fraction than what is in the stars. (Stars convert hydrogen to other things.) Why then, you ask, is hydrogen so (relatively) rare as it is on Earth? The reason is that the sun, early in its existence, blew it all (mostly) away into space. Thus small worlds near stars are hydrogen-depleted. The only other things in the universe (as far as we know) which are hydrogen- depleted are large, old stars or the remnants of same (white dwarfs, neutron stars, etc.) In particular, all the giant planets in our system (one of which, Jupiter, contains a majority of the non-stellar mass in the system) are all mostly hydrogen, and their satellites are not short of hydrogen. ------------------------------ From: wucs!tp@topaz.arpa (tom thumbs) Subject: what would advanced being come for? / music in sf Date: 19 Jul 85 03:33:08 GMT what would an advanced race come to earth for? 1. I know some wild and crazy alien guys and they say: "LARGE BREASTED AMERICAN WOMEN!" 2. they are already here and taking over... soon we will all be numbly repeating... "We're Beatrice." 3. Kate Bush! (also provides the tie-in with music & sf) tom patterson ihnp4!wucs!tp (uucp) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jul 85 1956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #278 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 278 Today's Topics: Films - Explorers, Music - SF and Music (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - Bug-eyed Monsters & Starlog & Christopher Lloyd (2 msgs) & Arts and SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: "Explorers" Date: 16 Jul 85 07:10:18 GMT "Explorers" is so lightweight that you'd better hope nobody coughs when you see it, or it might get blown away. It's well made, sort of sweet, definitely harmless, fairly entertaining, and lacking in anything approximating substance. "The Goonies", by contrast, was a large, indigestible lump. I preferred "Explorers", but neither film seems of any great importance to me. You could easily skip "Explorers" and not have to worry about having missed much of anything. Telling almost anything beyond the barest essentials of the beginning of the film would be (and, in the case of many reviewers, has been) criminal, for the film has so little plot. For those who don't like to see a film without knowing a little bit about it, the most I can fairly tell you is that "Explorers" is about three boys who, inspired by odd dreams, build a space- ship. Joe Dante reveals an unexpected taste for children's trifles, for that is what "Explorers" really is. Who would have thought that the director of "Piranha", "The Howling", and "Gremlins" would come up with a film which almost no parent could possibly object to? Of course, there is the little problem that, by and large, once children are old enough to choose films for themselves, the last thing they want to see is a film their parents don't object to. Where, then, will "Explorers" find its audience? Certainly not among adults, or at least not more than one time each. Dante spent too much time watching "E.T." The first half of the "Explorers" is filled with shots cribbed from Spielberg's film: slow pans over children's toys, light mists in moonlit woods, scrounging junk to patch together a high-tech device, and so on. When the orchestra, led by a bevy of violins, kicks in, the sense of deja vu is intense. A few characteristic Dante touches, like the Charles M. Jones Jr. High (that's Chuck Jones, master director of Bugs Bunny cartoons), liven things up momentarily, but they are few and far between. If "The Goonies" seemed an overreaction to the fuss about "Indiana Jones", "Explorers" is an almost alarming retreat in the face of the criticism of "Gremlins". It's the only alarming thing about the film. For his leads, Dante, doubtless with producer Spielberg's help, has dipped into the same old pool and come up with three more attractive, white, male Yuppie puppies. All are adequate, none are extraordinary, and, in the already overburdened child actor market, I doubt if they will resurface. Dick Miller, long time Roger Corman alumnus and a constant fixture in Dante's films, plays a rather irrelevant part, and that is about all the cast that matters. Which leads us to an interesting point. Anyone else out there think that Steven Spielberg is a sexist? Boys are always at the center of his films, never girls. The girls in "The Goonies" are something of spoilsports and don't have as many interesting things to do as the boys. The protagonist of "Back to the Future" is male. So was the protagonist of "Gremlins". The little sidekick in "Indiana Jones" was male, and the only woman was a screeching caricature. The kids in "Explorers" are all boys, the only girl serving more or less as an icon. Only her irresistibility kept Drew Barrymore from fading into the background in "E.T." The women in "Jaws" had minor roles. Only in "Poltergeist" did Spielberg give us important female characters. The female parts in "Raiders" and "Close Encounters" weren't too bad, but they were definitely supporting roles. (There were no large women's parts in "Fandango" either, but Spielberg took his name off of that when he saw it wasn't going to be a smash.) You have to go all the way back to "The Sugarland Express" to find one of his films which really revolves around a female character. I doubt if Spielberg is doing this consciously, but the fact remains that, with George Lucas drowsing in somnolence (and let's all remember the many great roles he gave to women in the "Star Wars" films: Princess Leia and... and... wasn't there a woman in one of the rebel warrooms in "The Empire Strikes Back"?), Spielberg is undeniably the most powerful filmmaker working. He can, and does, literally make what he wants to make, how he wants to make it. And it doesn't seem to occur to him to give good roles to women. Some of the most popular films of the last few years, and likely some of the most popular films of the next few years, are being made with little or no on-screen female presence. Talk about lack of role models. But, getting back to "Explorers", Spielberg and Dante have dolled up the production in their usual style, with first rate effects from Industrial Light and Magic and the usual professional jobs from all the other departments. "Explorers" is just a well-dressed trifle, and might have been a better film at half the cost, if a little more vitality could have been injected into it. At worst, "Explorers" won't harm anyone, and can serve as a reasonable entertainment for a couple hours. Boys of 11-14 may find it a bit more appealing, since the story is told from their point of view. Anyone else is likely to forget "Explorers" very quickly. With the number of good, memorable films around, "Explorers" is one to catch up with when you aren't in the mood for too much excitement. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: cstvax!br@topaz.arpa (Brian Ritchie) Subject: Re: SF in Music (and approximations to Pern music) Date: 24 Jul 85 16:14:45 GMT Some more SF-connected music: Virtually everything Hawkwind have ever done; the only album I ever had was titled something like `The Warrior At The Edge of Time', and included poems written and read by Michael Moorcock, with wierdo Hawkwind-effects in support. `The Pentateuch' by Dave Greenslade; actually a collaboration with SF artist Patrick Woodroffe - DG did the record, PW the accompanying book. I don't know any more about it other than that the shop I saw it in said it was a load of rubbish! Brian Eno: Apollo (soundtrack for a collage of NASA space film, directed by someone whose name I've forgotten -- DON'T tell me; it's written on the LP at home. Eno's notes say something like `I wanted to create music which reflected the ambient `atmosphere' of being in space' (only a bit better phrased). Not having been there, I don't feel qualified to comment on the success of his attempt; some of the `music' works for me, some of it doesn't (one track has very animal-like noises on it, and this was before the Shuttle started its monkey-business :-) On Land (if we're going to count Tangerine Dream for *sounding* `science-fictioney', then this has got to be in on it) Genesis: The Return of the Giant Hogweed (Triffids piss-take) The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (perhaps `surreal' rather than `SF') A Trick of The Tail (Fantasy) Yes: Astral Traveller Starship Trooper The Gates of Delirium (Oh dear, my comments on Yes have turned into a ramble, which I can't be bothered tidying up. Sorry!) Although Yes are lyrically distant from SF (in fact they seem lyrically distant from *anything*), I always think of their music as `otherworldly' (whatever that means). Also, check out Roger Dean's cover art, especially for `Yessongs' which tells a pictorial story of the demise of a planet and its subsequent `re-seeding' on another world. This latter `planted the seed' for Jon Anderson's (first) solo LP `Olias of Sunhillow', which attempts to repeat the story musically (see above note on Yes' lyrics). `Olias of Sunhillow' comes closer to my imagination of `alien folk music' than anything else; in particular, it comes to mind whenever music is described in the Pern books. Pedants may point out that since `Olias' has a fair amount of synthesiser sounds, it is not really that likely a candidate, but the whole album has an `acoustic' flavour, and that goes a long way to satisfy my impression of the music of Pern. I do listen to a lot of traditional music, which fits the `acoustic' image (harp, guitar, cittern, fiddle, dulcimer, mandolin, etc etc), but even granted that the music of Pern may well be derived from our own traditional music, I *want* it to sound different! Thus far, Olias has come closest to fitting the bill; I'd be interested to hear anyone else's `earthly approximations' to Pern music (or the music in any other works of SF). If anyone is really interested in `science-fictioney' music, I'll try and make a list from my collection at home (if I remember), but it's likely to be quite large, and boring to anyone else... if you're interested, mail me. (Oh dear, what have I let myself in for...?) Cheers, Brian Ritchie ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@SDCSVAX Date: Thu, 18 Jul 85 15:34:28 PDT Subject: Music in Science Fiction I remember a story (or novel?) in which the central character who, for reasons I no longer remember, was able to function in each half of his brain independently. He was, at least publicly, a concert pianist, renowned for his ability to play a fantastically difficult concerto ("Emperor" by Beethoven, I think) exactly the way it was written. As I recall, he was also involved in some kind of spy or detective work. This is all I remember. Don't know where I saw it or when, or who the author was. Anyone? Bruce N. Wheelock arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa (Daniel R. Levy) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 19 Jul 85 02:52:56 GMT There's the song "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" from a few years back... anyone remember the artist? (It wasn't popular for very long.) From the Crossposting Synapses of a hacker at&t [teletype corp.] ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: more SF music Date: 16 Jul 85 02:55:00 GMT Another artist who does SF music is the 'group' Planet P. They have produced two records so far (but get te tape versions if you can) and both consist of almost entirely SF-themed music. Another song for the scrapbook: most of the Rush album, Grace Under Pressure, esp. Body Electric. orstcs/richardt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 10:15 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Music in SF Although we never really heard it, can we forget the war prevention song entitled "Su Madre" from Lost Dorsai by Gordon Dickson? After all, it helped save the day. It took guts too, but he was a Dorsai after all. Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Music in SF Date: 19 Jul 85 15:20:20 GMT Has anyone mentioned "Armageddon Rag" yet? It has a playlist of songs in the front of it that are supposed to be played as you read the book. Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Yet more 1999. Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT With reference to BUG EYED MONSTERS. What is wrong with them? As Aliens they must surely be better than 1) STRANGE FLASHING LIGHTS (TREK/1999) 2) LARGE BLACK SLABS (2001) 3) HUMANS IN SILLY UNIFORMS WITH LOTS OF MAKE UP ON (All) Besides the kids love them (don't they?). Andy T. ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@topaz.arpa (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Banned episode inquiry. Yet more 1999. Date: 16 Jul 85 14:00:42 GMT With reference to STARLOG. Someone called STARLOG a rag, I must protest. In the early days it was very good and very fair to new series like 1999.TV-SciFi and SF-TV have also been fair (see quote below) and much better than the feeble STARBURST could manage (did they do a 1999 article at all?). Andy T. ------------------------------ From: hou2a!pjk@topaz.arpa (P.KEMP) Subject: Re: Christopher LLoyd Date: 17 Jul 85 13:21:33 GMT I believe Christopher Lloyd also appeared in the TV show "Best of the West" as the "killer" gunslinger. Paul Kemp ihnp4!hou2a!pjk ------------------------------ Date: 19 Jul 85 09:59:44 PDT (Friday) From: Josh Susser Subject: Re: Christopher Lloyd >From: Doug Krause > >Here is everything that I can remember seeing Chris Lloyd in: > >Rev. Jim Ignatouski "Taxi" >Lord Kruge "Star Trek III" >Doc E. Brown "Back To The Future" >Sargeant Schultz "To Be or Not To Be" >Frogface "The Lady In Red" >psycho patient "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" add to this list: John Bigboote' "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension" I know I have seen him in other less-memorable stuff as well. -- Josh Susser Susser.pasa@Xerox.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 12:47:08 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: More arts & SF Maybe I need to clarify myself. When I spoke of the obvious absence of the arts in SF, I was thinking specifically of the classic "Joe American has a problem with aliens (or whatever) and uses something that only humans can appreciate (only occasionally intelligence, more often intuition or emotion, or some other particularly human quality) to thwart his enemy and/or solve his problem." Whatever folks may say about the SF elements of Pern, the Harper Hall trilogy has never seemed like SF to me. Granted, some stories really are borderline, but I draw a line nonetheless between SF and Fantasy. I was speaking of this subject with a friend of mine, and he said, "But if it has music (or whatever) in it, it's not HARD Science." Hm. It's possible that because there seem to be no strict scientific elements in the arts (or so one might perceive), there can be no hard SF stories having the arts as significant elements. But what about the physics of sound in music? Kinetic energy in dance? Other suggestions? (I've already had it suggested to me that since I'm both an author and a musician *I* should write the kind of story I'd like to see, so no repeats thereof are necessary. Perhaps I will...) Since my last posting, I've read a story that comes close to my idea. It's reassuring anyway. It's called "Tin Ear", in Spider Robinson's Antimony. Judging from all the notice he's been getting in the letters on this subject, it seems like he's seen the lack also and is doing something about it... Leigh Ann ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 22 Jul 85 2021-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #279 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 22 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 279 Today's Topics: Music - SF and Music, Miscellaneous - FTL (3 msgs) & Cuteness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wucs!tp@topaz.arpa (tom thumbs) Subject: music in sf Date: 19 Jul 85 03:33:08 GMT Speaking of sf & music, someone mentioned hints of "Lord of the Rings" in Led Zeppelin... if memory serves me correctly, "Ramble On" from Led Zep II had lines like "in the darkest depths of Mordor [something] a girl so fair / but Gollum, [?] the evil one, crept up and slipped away with her..." and more things, enough so that while in an altered state of consciousness, I had a mystic revelation about the relationship between LZ II and LotR which didn't survive the translation back to reality. I see lots of mention of inside jokes in sf books in this group (e.g. the authors in "Footfall"). Do many people know of references to sf-people in "mundane" (non-sf) books? (inside jokes, catty putdowns, etc... just wondering if anyone had noticed any cross-pollination between genres). tom patterson ihnp4!wucs!tp (uucp) ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: FTL - a postivie argument Date: 16 Jul 85 02:51:00 GMT Okay, let's do something positive for a change and start considering potential ways that FTL could be achieved. 1) On violating Special Relativity. As someone mentioned, Special Relativity is based on some very basic mathematical postulates and those postulates are unlikely to be incorrect. However, Newtonian Mechanics is also based upon a very simple set of mathematical postulates. I think we can all agree that Special Relativity provides an accurate description in a number of areas where Newtonian Mechanics falls flat on it's face. This is NOT because the basic postulates are incorrect, but because they do not have the needed scope. Special Relativity is designed to DESCRIBE a set of actions *outside of the domain of actions which Newtonian Mechanics is designed to describe.* Therefore, if the pertinent actions which produce Faster Than Light travel are outside of the realm (i.e., based on an entirely different set of physical laws) of Special Relativity, the 'laws' of Special Relativity *do not apply* to FTL. Thus, if we don't know about the physical laws which govern FTL, we have no basis to say that its impossible. Newtonian physics works beautifully UP TO A POINT. With the information we now have, Special Relativity may or may not be an accurate description of the universe. There is evidence which suggests that it is nowhere near a complete system, however. Witness Quantum Mechanics. QM does not violate SR, but rather falls outside of the domain of SR. Second point: SR, and any other form of physics, describes a mathematical MODEL of the universe. When experience and the model don't jive, you change the model. Of course, this tends to make the proponents of the old model unhappy in the process. Everyone remember what happened when Einstein introduced SR? He was laughed down by the current physics Establishment. The basic argument is that WE DO NOT KNOW WHETHER FTL IS POSSIBLE OR NOT, AND HAVE NO RELIABLE DATA TO BASE A CONCLUSION ON. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT FTL DOES NOT OCCUR WITHIN THE CONSTRICTIONS OF SPECIAL RELATIVITY, AND THEREFORE IS PROBABLY BASED UPON OTHER, UNKNOWN PHYSICAL LAWS. 2) On the concept of Faster-Than-Light travel: There are two fundamental ways to move from place to place faster than light would travel that distance. You can either occupy each succesive point in space in a period with a shorter duration than a photon would occupy each succesive point in space; OR, you can occupy points in space non-succesively. For example: ................................... <-- points in space ................................... photon's path -- takes n seconds ................................... true ftl path -- time is is less than n seconds . . . . extralight path. A B If the photon and the extralight object both start moving from point A to point B at the same time, the extralight object will APPEAR to have gone faster than light, as it will arrive at B before the photon. Objectively, this is not what's happening; The extralight object has a speed below that of light, but is changing its location in 3-space within a shorter period of time. This is an important distinction. By the way, James Blish explored the concept of jumping from point to point in space in the book "All These Earths." Sorry I started being picky about terminology there, but the point doesn't make sense if its not stated precisely. In any case, most FTL travel is based upon the latter concept, extralight movement. Another book dealing with this, which works from the question 'What makes this point in 4-space different from any other point?,' is Gordon R. Dickson's "Arcturus Landing." orstcs/richardt ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: FLT ( fundamental laws of physics ) Date: 18 Jul 85 14:55:44 GMT A little while ago I posted an article talking about two interpretations of a basic principle of special relativity that says the faster an object is going, the more force you need to apply to make it accelerate. I don't want to get too far into physics in net.sf-lovers, but there is an important law of philosophy of science here, so one more article to clear things up. robertj@garfield.UUCP (Robert Janes) writes: >Newton however made the assumption that m was independent of v >which is not in fact the case as was shown by Einstein. In fact >mass ( as measured by an observer not moving with the object ) does >depend upon v as follows > > m = m0/sqrt( 1 - (v/c)**2) > >Using this we see that m increases assymptotically as v->c. Thus >the basic law is still quite sound if properly applied! Einstein gave many things to the physics world and one that is still not adequately appreciated today is the concept of "operational definitions". Science was very close to relativity at the turn of the century; the experimental results (like the Michaelson-Morley experiment) were there; the mathematics was there; the recognition of the problem was there. Einstein gets the credit because he said, "Let's look at the way people _measure_ time." Once you look at the _operation_ of taking various kinds of measurements, you see how such operations lead to measuring time dilation, length contraction, and so on. Operationally, how does one measure mass? One subjects an object to a known force and sees how it accelerates, then one applies F=ma. If the object is more or less stationary in your own frame of reference, you can for example put the object on a weigh scale. The force of gravity acts on the object, accelerating it downward a small distance before the known force of the springs in the scale decelerate the object. The distance that the object has moved (entirely a function of the acceleration given by the two forces) is used to determine the object's mass. When an object is moving relative to your frame of reference, physicists measure its mass the same way. They subject the object to a known force and see how much it accelerates. For example, a particle in a particle accelerator is subjected to a known electrical force and various techniques are used to see how fast it ends up going. Observations and special relativity both show that the particle behaves _as_if_ its mass were greater than its rest mass (the formula given above is correct). However, the reason physicists get this result is that they believe in F=ma (or its generalization F=dp/dt)! They work out the mass from the observed acceleration from the known force (or sometimes the force observed to be necessary to obtain a given acceleration). I'm certainly not proposing that we do away with F=ma or that it is even incorrect. All I'm pointing out is that the definition of mass and the formula for calculating mass has F=ma built right into it. Physicists decided that F=ma (a mathematical equation) was more important to preserve than the concept that the mass of an object is fixed. They changed the definition of mass rather than changing the equation. Mr.Janes goes on to talk about tachyons and applies the mass equation to them. > But then we have the following problem: > > if v>>c then 1-(v/c)**2 < 0 > hence sqrt( 1 -(v/c)**2) is imaginary !! > > What is imaginary mass and why is it necessarily more > tangible and acceptable then infinite mass? I don't claim that tachyons exist. But if they did exist, there is no reason why the given formula for mass would apply. It does not apply to particles going at the speed of light, since the formula would involve division by zero. Nevertheless, there are many many "things" that move at the speed of light (light being a prime example). We can say that the mass formula is not correct for "things" whose speed is >= the speed of light; or we can say that mass is not a meaningful concept for such things. Either way, we cannot say that the given formula argues against the existence of tachyons, since it argues against the existence of light too, and we know that light exists. The formula does provide substantial argument that you won't reach light speeds through acceleration from slower than light speeds, but it says nothing about things that are already at light speeds or faster. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Subject: FTL in SF Date: 19 Jul 85 12:30:45 EDT (Fri) From: jdecarlo@mitre.ARPA Peter Alfke says: >Relativity prohibits any transfer of information at speeds greater >than that of light. It doesn't matter how the information got from >one place to another, just the distance covered per time taken. >Upsetting, isn't it? I might add that some assume that our universe is many-dimensioned and the ships make use of that fact to *take short cuts* to their destinations. The usual analogy is that of a line two feet long with it's end points one inch apart. A one dimensional creature travels two feet to go from one end to another, while a two-dimensional creature (or a one dimensional creature in a *spaceship* which can travel in two dimensions) travels one inch. Did the two-dimensional creature violate the speed-of-light limit or not? Creature one would say yes, creature two would say no. (BTW, Macroscope, by Piers Anthony, has a particularly convoluted view of the universe in it, as an example.) John DeCarlo ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 19 Jul 1985 08:13:51-PDT From: wix%bergil.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Jack Wickwire) Subject: Cold blooded cuteness From: Leigh Ann Hussey Subject: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"... What is wrong with "cute" these days? I'm sorry, but I LIKED the Ewoks! > I have spared myself the dubious delights of the Smurfs, > along with most of the other rubbish that advertisers think will > appeal to kids (and God help us, sometimes they're right). My feelings when I saw them were at best mixed. For though aliens can be expected to come in whatever shape one can imagine the ursine/anthropomorphic features of the Ewoks said 'Marketing Strategy' loud and clear. After the flood of Star Wars toys from the first two movies, a perhaps overly cynical side of me was disappointed that they should use something that was so heavily evocative of children's toys. > But the cuteness of anything, even if it does resemble a walking > teddy-bear, is decidedly limited when it wakes you up, as it did > Leia, with a sharp spear at a sensitive spot. While using a spear to wake someone does cut the cloying sensation they first give, but the audience reaction during the times that I watched the movie was at how cute they were with their cute spears. It is true that cute can be deceiving, that is why people feed the cute bears in a National Park and get mauled, they are demonstrating that they have let the physical appearance of the bears deceive them. They are expecting pork-pie hats, collars, and neckties. Instead of having their appearance be ambivalent and their attitude have to be proven, they copped out and made them cute and friendly. The Ewoks would have had to push a burning busload of blind orphans off a cliff into shark infested waters before they could be seen as anything but giant Teddy Bears. Instead of presenting me with an ingeniously created arboreal civilization of aliens on an distant planet I saw the contents of a child's toy chest. > So I think labeling the Ewoks "cute" is one of the > oversimplifications that abound when people discuss Star Wars -- > or when certain self-appointed network critics discuss anything > having to do with SF. > > Guessing further, I'd say that the most vocal SF followers these > days want to project an image of "maturity", of following a > literary form of serious intent. Anybody who feels like that is > bound to feel that "cuteness" is souring his cause. Again, I > think this is one for the self-appointed critics, and not to be > taken too seriously by most of us. It will have its day and be > forgotten. My complaint is directed at a tossed off alien design with built-in kid appeal. I am not being self-conscious about the books I read or the movies I watch. I agree that in the case described the critics reaction would be sour, but I am arguing that the Ewoks design was unnecessarily glib and facile for a tribe of aliens. For instance E. T. broke most of those rules I referred to below yet he was able to be described as cute and got a sympathetic audience response. >This dislike of "cuteness" (a subjective term, at best) is evidence. I strongly disagree that cuteness is a subjective term at best. I will quote from _Animation_ by Preston Blair Published by Foster Art Service Inc. pg. 11. The Cute Character - Cuteness is based on the basic proportions of a baby + and expressions of shyness or coyness.... No neck - head joins on to body directly... Head large in relation to the body... High forehead is very important... Eyes spaced low on head & usually large and wide apart... Nose and mouth are always small... Arms are short and never skinny and taper down to the hand and tiny fingers... Tummy bulges - looks well-fed... Fat legs - short and tapering down into small feet for type. The stereotypes used by animators are distilled down from what the culture generally perceives as representing a certain set of characteristics. Just as you can tell what a cartoon character will be like from their appearance before they even act so the costume designers made the Ewoks as close to cute aliens as they could. Do you think that during the hours of arguing over costume designs to make this character look sinister and that look heroic that the mass appeal of cute Ewoks was never mentioned? I can only guess, that's true, but I guess that the Ewoks were designed to be cute for commercial reasons to sell the movie and the toys. >And c'mon, you Hoka and Fuzzy fans! Why take offense? I like them >too, and that's why I liked the Ewoks. There is nothing about them >to be ashamed of. My memories of the Hokas are of a broad satire of getting your heroes from books with out applying any judgment to what you are reading. Fuzzys, per se, never did much for me though I enjoyed the books. I am not ashamed of the Ewoks I just think the costume design was purposefully designed to be cute and it distracted me during the film. Well I have harped on this at length so I'll quit here. .wIx. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jul 85 2111-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #280 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 280 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Gardner & McKiernan & Sallis & Varley, Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) & Mad Max & SF Westerns, Music - The Android Sisters & SF in Music (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Re: Review of _Bearing_an_Hourglass_ Date: 20 Jul 85 07:33:07 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >I can't hold back on this one. I have rarely been more put off by >anything I read than I was by the afterword to On A Pale Horse. Agreed. I think it was Lester Del Rey who said that stories ought to live or die by themselves, not by their introductory notes. For every author note I read in a book or story, I read two or three that drive me up the wall (I wasn't particularly thrilled to hear all about Harlan Ellison's vasectomy in Croatoan, for example...) >I read the book and decided it was a good read. Hmm... I liked On a Pale Horse enough that I bought "Bearing an Hourglass" (the second book in the series) in hardback just after it came out (THAT is a testimony that comes all too rarely...). I'm waiting on the third until it shows up in paperback, perhaps through the SFBC (that is a testimony that comes all too often....) Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: Craig Shaw Gardner Date: 19 Jul 85 20:32:54 GMT > From: Jonathan Ostrowsky > I finally spoke with Craig last night. He was happy to report > that Ace is going to publish three Ebenezum novels: "A Malady of > Magicks", "A Multitude of Monsters", and "A Night in the > Netherhells". I don't know exactly when the books will start > appearing. This is probably the greatest thing anyone could have told me before a dreary weekend. For those of you who want a taste of Craig Shaw Gardner's work see Lin Carter's Flashing Swords #5. If you are a fantasy fan, you've got to be ripped to miss this series when it comes out. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!jrm@topaz.arpa (John Miller) Subject: Review of McKiernan's new book The Silver Call Date: 19 Jul 85 19:44:28 GMT If you enjoyed the Iron Tower Trilogy by Dennis L. McKiernan (one of our own here at Bell Labs) you will enjoy his new book "The Silver Call". "The Silver Call" takes place about 200 years after the Winter War, the war in which the forces of Good meet the Evil forces of the arch villian Modru. It is set in the world of Mithgar and tells the story of the Dwarves efforts to retake their ancient home: the mines of Kraggen-cor. If you read the Iron Tower Trilogy you will recall that the Dwarves had lost Kraggen-cor to the forces of evil. Two Warrows (Wee Folk) are enlisted by the Dwarves to aid in the venture. Despite their small size, the Warrows prove to be formidable warriors. Their selection was based on detailed information they had about the interior of Kraggen-cor, information they had gained from their study of the Deevewalker's records. The book is fun reading and the suspense gradually builds up through the entire tale. I felt as if I were digging around the mines of Kraggen-Kor myself. I received a sneek preview of The Silver Call the book directly from the author; release is expected from Doubleday in the Summer of 86 in either one or two books. Watch for them. For those of you who missed the Iron Tower Trilogy, the paperback version is expected late this summer (85). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 16:20 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: James Sallis Qualifier - While my books are at home He edited an anothology of four Novellas. The cover had a spiral of worlds or cubes, each slightly changed from the last. I remember this because Samuel Delany's "Time considered as a Helix of Semiprecious Stones" was one of the stories. I also have "Tissue" James Sallis, short story, 1972, Doubleday (the anthology title is mixed in an old card-based bibliography. John Mellby P.O.Box 801, Mail Station 8007 Texas Instruments McKinney Texas 75069 JMELLBY%TI-EG@CSNET-RELAY (214) 952-2139 (work) (214) 242-9641 (home) ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan) Subject: Re: characters in John Varley's stories Date: 19 Jul 85 21:57:01 GMT > From: Henry Vogel > Varley's men are almost always twice (or more) the age of the > women they end up with...It's not something I mind, it's just > something I found curious... Has anyone else noticed this or am I > just imaging it? In "Beatnik Bayou" the guy ends up with a much older woman. But in any case, sexual relationships in Varley stories are usually pretty strange. Sometimes a character ends up with a clone of him/herself (with or with and without common memories), sometimes with a robot, sometimes with his best friend who has had a sex change, sometimes with a parent, etc., so age differences are the least of the weirdness. Oh, by the way, "Persistence of Vision" is the best book ever written. -Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA) ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Amusing reference in _Back to the Future_ Date: 17 Jul 85 21:48:53 GMT >I was reading the novelization of _Back to the Future_ and noticed >an amusing reference. When Marty arrives in 1955, he arrives on >the Peabody farm. The farmer, Mr. Peabody, has a son named....... >Sherman. This was in the film as well as the novel. But it seems more like it was a joke for the actors more than for the audience, since you don't really see it in the film itself. It was in the credits at the end. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!datanguay@topaz.arpa (David Tanguay) Subject: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Future" Date: 13 Jul 85 20:43:12 GMT > Here's a topic me and some friends have been bandying about: > What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from > 1955? ... Any comments? > Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe I think the current plastics technology would blow the minds of 1955 people. Back then plastics were synonymous with low quality (and rightly so); today everything is made out of plastic. We didn't (don't?) notice this revolution because it has happened slowly but steadily. In a related area, expoxies and composite materials (eg. graphite, kevlar) are also very impressive, if less pervasive. David Tanguay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 02:11:52 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Re: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" Steve Rabin writes: >I disagree with Peter Reiher's review of Beyond The Thunderdome. Your perogative. I certainly won't try to convince you that you didn't like it. >Beyond The Thunderdome, on the other hand, is a satirical pastiche >of the last 5 years of film. I recognized episodes almost from >Dune, Escape From New York, Star Wars, ET, the earlier Mad Max >films, Lawrence of Arabia, Of Mice and Men.... While undeniably a lot of quotes from other films occured, I don't think that this was the main point of the film, unless George Miller is a liar. Since all accounts I have heard say that he is an extremely nice man, I'll take him at his word that, primarily, he was trying to work with myth. For me, "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" largely failed on the level of myth, while "The Road Warrior" succeeded on the same level. Not precisely on this point, Miller did comment (on similarities between the chase scenes in "The Road Warrior" and "Beyond Thunderdome") that "...once you've established emotional and visual language for a film, there *is* only one way to approach a given moment." Don't count on all of those quotes being intentional. Film scholars can, and do, make a profession out of looking foolish when they ask film makers about their borrowings from their predecessors. I've done it myself, in public, and did I ever feel like an idiot. >The plot is not intended to be believable, or to stand on its own, >and to judge it on these grounds is to miss the point. Judge it >for its dramatic and emotional effect, and for the new ideas and >questions with which you leave the theatre. I think that the plot was meant to be believable on the same level as the Trojan Horse or Beowulf. Judging it as anything but a myth seems to me to miss the point. Max is an archetypical hero, performing an archetypical task. (Miller invariably mentions, in his interviews on this film, that a group of aborigines, on hearing the part of the story about the children waiting to be taken off into the sky, excitedly said that they had a legend just like that.) Miller was trying, as his major task, to produce a universal myth. I think he failed. I can't say I came out of "Beyond Thunderdome" with any new ideas, unless you count a nagging doubt that maybe George Miller isn't as good a director as I thought he was. (I'm working on crushing that doubt.) I left with lots of questions, mostly of the form, "Well, since it obviously would have been better to do this that way, why didn't Miller and Ogilvie do it that way?" Note that I am not saying that "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" is a bad film, nor even that it is not a good film, only that it isn't nearly as good a film as "The Road Warrior". >I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe there aren't many >fast cars but I liked it a lot anyhow. That's nice. Fast cars in and of themselves don't appeal to me. (I have no particular fondness for either part of "The Cannonball Run"). Well constructed movies do. Basically, though, with few exceptions, I like people to like movies, even the ones I have my doubts about, since that means that they will see more movies, the studios will make more money, causing them to make more movies, giving me more movies to see, and, assuming fixed ratio of good movies to bad, more good movies a year. Therefore, take your loved ones, multiple times, even, to see a movie I trashed. You have my blessing. After all, it's your money, not mine. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.arpa (The Polymath) Subject: Re: your film fantasies Date: 20 Jul 85 01:23:12 GMT >From: Don Rose >(P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?) Well, _Battle Beyond the Stars_ was western SF (a remake of _The Magnificent Seven_, itself a remake of _The Seven Samurai_). So was _Borderland_ (a remake of _High Noon_). I remember a SF/Western short story invloving time-travel. The plot was rather complex and involved a time traveling woman arriving at a point in the Old West to have her child and having to fetch a .44 magnum from the future so a local could defend her against her enemies (and incidently his). Afraid I can't remember title or author at the moment. The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jul 85 14:47 EDT From: Mills@CISL-SERVICE-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: The Andoid Sisters Since music in sf or vice versa has been a hot topic lately, here is a review of: The Android Sisters Songs of Electronic Despair As you might guess form the title, its even more obvious if you saw the jacket, this is an extremely entertaining album. Whether its good music or not is quite another story. In fact one of the eleven cuts , "Telephone Wires in the Tropics", is more a short horror story. The first two cuts, "Sss-X Minus One" and "Invasion" are snappy, but somewhat disconnected. I particularly like the arrangement of Invasion. I am tempted to say its not quite like anything I have ever heard before, but that could describe most of the album realy well. A key exception to this whould be the cut "Livin' in the 50's", which is a realy fun electronic parody. While on the humour end of things the cut "Down on the Electronic Farm" is probably one of the funniest songs I have ever heard. The strange part is that I can't realy figure out why. If you can imagine a mixture of a classic "Ompa"-type rythym, with an overvoice of very high femalish voices doing a very tame version of rap using 3-4 word sentences, all on top of a symphony of sentient quasi-animals, you get the idea sort of. About the most normal cut on the album is probably "Robots Are Coming". It wouldn't be hard to imagine DEVO or Gary Numan doing something like this, but the tonal fabric is very different. The album even includes a lesson on how to make your music so you don't have to listen to the dumb music on the radio any more. "Dumb is Fun" shows you how to create your own in a Top-Down manner. And how could anyone resist a cut by the title, "Macho Robot or The Banana Trilogy"? If you like sf and unusual modernistic electronicish music, this record is a must. Also if you have been interested in hearing some of the more bizare things the Synclaviar II can do, this is for you. Believe it or not this is a real review. The Android Sisters, Songs of Electronic Dispare is available from: ZBS Foundation RR#1, box 1201 Fort Edward NY 12828 If you call ZBS at (518) 695-6404 or -3960 they will probably send a catalog. John Mills ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@topaz.arpa (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 16 Jul 85 18:41:00 GMT > Spider Robinson did one about a rock singer wired for empathy. If you're talking about _Stone_ with Jain Snow, and the narrator the controller of the empathy circuits, I believe that was Edward Bryant... possibly in Orbit or else a Nebula anthology or a Gardner Dozois one or... in any case, a real good story. Other sf-music things are _In_Pierson's_Orchestra_ and one about a band composed of space miners in Orbit or some such, by Stanley Robinson. Also Sucharikul's Light_on_the_Sound series has a lot to do with music, as he's a composer, and working on an opera with Gene Wolfe last I heard. For really GREAT music sf, how about Anne McCaffery's _Crystal_Singer_ or even the Dragonsinger books? What about Piers Anthony's _Chaining_The_Lady_, with a whole race of aliens adapted for creating music? I really liked this stuff, before I got so highbrow. Laurence Roberts ...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl ------------------------------ From: bambi!mike@topaz.arpa (Michael Caplinger) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 19 Jul 85 15:27:50 GMT Klattu did "Calling Occupants..." initially, I think, but it was later popularized by The Carpenters. (By the way, the Klattu album it appears on also has "Little Neutrino", the only song supposedly sung by a subatomic particle in music history, I bet...) - Mike ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jul 85 2137-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #281 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 281 Today's Topics: Books - Footfall & Short Stories & Tall Tale Stories (2 msgs) & New Books, Films - Special Effect Work, Music - SF in Music (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Alien Visitors (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF writers in FOOTFALL Date: 20 Jul 85 15:13:08 GMT > From: denelcor!lmc (Lyle McElhaney) > The SF writers who make up the "threat team" in Niven & > Pournelle's new book _Footfall_ are: > Wade and Jane Curtis > Reynolds and Wade Curtis write together, and both live in Los > Angeles (if that's not enough of a clue, check out Curtis' > response to the aliens' conditional surrender: "Nuke them till > they glow, and then shoot then in the dark"). And if *that's not enough of a clue, check out the fact that two stories that appeared in ANALOG in 1972 ("A Matter of Sovereignty", Jan, and "Power to the People", Aug) as by Wade Curtis also appeared in Pournelle's collection HIGH JUSTICE. Not to mention the fact that two Wade Curtis suspense novels, RED HEROIN and RED DRAGON will be reprinted later this year under Pournelle's own name. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: Short stories and bibliography request Date: 17 Jul 85 21:16:46 GMT For short stories, nothing beat Lin Carter's Best of Fantasy and Flashing Swords. Thieves' World #1 was hearty as well. Regarding individual authors, I recommend the Dilvish the Damned collection by Zelazny and the "Swords against ... " by Leiber. BUT- The Absolute BEST shorts I read came from Craig Shaw Gardner. I've only seen a couple of his stories and much to my dismay I cannot find any anthology or further works. Anyone who has read about his remarkable wizard, Ebenezum, will agree with me. If anyone has an idea where I can get a hold of more of his work please post it. The few I've found came in Lin Carter's series. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Date: 18 Jul 85 23:46:09 GMT franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >BTW, did those stories by Clarke create the "tall tales in a bar" >subgenre, or did someone else do it even earlier? Wasn't James Branch Cabell (correct spelling optional) an earlier SFnal (or at least fantasy-nal) perpetrator of such stories? Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF Bar Stories Date: 20 Jul 85 15:44:12 GMT > From: spar!freeman (Jay Reynolds Freeman) > franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >>BTW, did those stories by Clarke create the "tall tales in a bar" >>subgenre, or did someone else do it even earlier? > > Wasn't James Branch Cabell (correct spelling optional) an earlier > SFnal (or at least fantasy-nal) perpetrator of such stories? No. I suspect that you're thinking of Edward Plunkett, Lord Dunsany, whose tales of Mr. Jorkens and the Billiards Club appeared at least as early as the 30's (the first --- of five --- collections appeared in 1931), While these aren't strictly *bar* stories, they are close enough. De Camp and Pratt's Gavagan's Bar stories also pre-date Clarke's White Hart by a few years. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 12:30:40 edt From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey) Subject: new books Two new paperbacks I picked up last night at Wordsworth's in Harvard Square: R.A. MacAvoy's "The Book of Kells" and Katherine Kurtz's "The Bishop's Heir". I think they were both just released. Now to get myself into that Deryni frame of mind... - john romkey romkey@mit-borax ------------------------------ Date: Sat 20 Jul 85 13:01:45-PDT From: R H Davis Subject: Star Trek -TMP 1) You must understand that because of the nature of the movie industry there a large egos. Large, unsatisfied egos breed/feed large, madly spinning gossip wheels. _As_I_understand_it_...Paramount Pics had, after the effort with Disney Pics on "Dragonslayer" [excellent!!], been dying to start it's own SFX shop (Universal had one...why not us?!?). But, it had to be a facility with a "look" of it's own so that their services would be in demand from the outside(a sound business attitude, reflecting Gulf & Westerns attitude as a whole). Robert Able & Assoc. was doing some incredibly innovative work with his Levi's commercials via computer tech. Paramount Pics set up an initial $6mil contract to open a shop and have Able develop his ideas. "Make this stuff different from anything going...ST-TMP is our flagship film into Sci-Fic" In the end Able developed a lab that would shoot model animation that was almost entirely developed at a term which was later shot with models with almost NO human interaction. The problem was that no one explained to the computer the nature/texture/depth of film and so naturally everything had a very flat look to it(I've seen some of the footage). At this point of the game Able had almost used his entire $6mil and Paramount, already panicing from the pictures rampant budget (Roddenberry is NOT a movie producer), salvaged all the footage they could and called in Trumble to shoot the model work (as he was there already developing SHOW-SCAN) and Greg Jene (spell??) to do the miniatures. I know of no input from Dykstra, although his presence is certainly possible as Paramount was throwing any available EFX tech. in town into the project at this point. The Able footage that made it to the final cut of ST-TMP includes ALL the "Exterior" shots of V'ger, the worm-whole(?) effect and almost all of the Ilia and electronic planet footage. A lot of bad press is out about Able but, most of it is ego rattling because Able was in the right place at the right time despite his lack of "traditional" EFX experience and got the contract. Dykstra has a lot of bad press because he developed tech. for ILM under contract for "Star Wars" and then proceeded to illegally use that tech. on his own projects (Battlestar). (He never worked with ILM after SW, by the way). This means that for a long time Dykstra did very little visible work as he was a bad risk. More and more these days, though, you see him working on independent projects. He's very talented ("Firefox") but he's also not a very wise businessman..... God!! 'nuff said, already!! bd ------------------------------ From: utflis!chai@topaz.arpa (Henry Chai) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 16 Jul 85 02:09:54 GMT freeman@max.UUCP (Jay Freeman) writes: >can anyone think of interesting examples of written SF in which >music played a dominant theme? Let's not forget the "Harper Hall of Pern" trilogy by McCaffrey. I know it's aimed at 'younger readers', but I actually enjoyed it more then the "Dragonriders" triology. In "Crystal Singer", also by McCaffrey, music plays a supporting role in that it is the tool/medium thru which 'crsytal cutting' is done. (in case anyone is not informed: McCaffrey studied, directed and sang in voice/operattas before starting her career in SF/F writing) Also Ursula LeGuin's short story "Gwilan's Harp" (in her book "The Compass Rose") has music as an important theme. It's not anything fancy or flashy (LeGuin's works never were) but I liked it a lot. Henry Chai Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai ------------------------------ Date: Sat 20 Jul 85 13:57:41-EDT From: Mike Thome Subject: Music in SF, SF in Music While I can't think of many authors who *often* use music as a central theme (with McCaffrey as the one who first comes to mind), there do seem to be a great many short stories that deal with music and the other arts... McCaffrey: Dragon{song,singer,drums} & Crystal singer Sucharitkul: Many of his short stories that make up his books (Inquestor series, Mallworld) have music/poetry/art as a *very* important theme - on the other hand, most of THESE arts don't exist here/now (darkweaver and dust sculptor (?) stick in my mind). (Why haven't I seen much (any) discussion of this author?) Robinson: Many of his "crosstime saloon" stories use music - "Wolfstroker" and the one about Bobbi Joy (is this "the right name?) stick in my mind... and, of "course, you get the puns for free... Also, I remember a couple of very good short stories about music/art, but don't remember who wrote them: a wonderful story about a woman who teaches a forest to play classical music (what is this? I NEED to know!), and an interesting one in analog a year or so ago about an art critic visiting a "revolutionary" new artist (who isn't human) - called "The Critic", maybe? Anyway - that's about 1/2 hour of thought on the subject - there has got to be much more out there. I hope I gave enough clues to ID the unknowns above to someone out there... I'de like to know too... Oh yes, for SF-style music, try "The Essential Jean Michel Jarre" which is a very good selection from his other albums. Mike Thome mthome@bbn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 14:36:03 edt From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey) Subject: sf in music Michael Moorcock also cowrote Blue Oyster Cult's song "Veteran of the Psychic Wars" from the Heavy Metal soundtrack. It's fairly sf-ish. A couple of other songs from the soundtrack are SF-y (??) even when taken without the movie. And Fleetwood Mac's (Stevie Nicks's) song "Rhiannon" is supposed to be about a Welsh (Welch?) witch. Anybody know if Stevie's still around? - john romkey romkey@mit-borax ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 15:11:55 EDT From: David A. Adler Subject: Music in SF I have been reading through the messages citing references to music in SF and SF in music and was surprised that no one has mentioned the works of Somtow Sucharitkul. Some of you might recall that his works were discussed a couple of months ago. Since Sucharitkul composed music before he wrote SF, there are many musical themes intertwined in his SF (at least in the Inquestor series). Music is very important to a couple of the characters in the Inquestor series and in one instance an entire city is genetically altered so their voices create perfect harmony as they walk through the streets and chant. In FIRE FROM THE WINE DARK SEA, a collection of his short stories, Sucharitkul included the theme song he was asked to write for Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine. There are also a couple of interviews in the collection in which he describes his musical "career." Personally I have not heard the composition, but was told from a friend that it is rather amusing. Sucharitkul footnotes the music and breaks the work down into several themes, including: fanfare ("every march should have a nice grand fanfare"), generalized superhero theme, exotic alien princess theme ("every space opera has one"), obligatory hordes of evil, conflict, triumph, and a distant rumbling of evil forces ("the obligatory 'I shall return' line that leaves room for a sequel"). The interview, by Darrell Schweitzer, works through the life an times of Somtow Sucharitkul. Schweitzer asks Sucharitkul about his early career, which included composing both poetry and music at a fairly young age (early teens) as well as the development of his writing and his philosophy of writing. When asked if there was any relation between his music and writing, Sucharitkul responded that he didn't see any barrier between the two, but thought he was much better at writing music since he had more practice at it and he thought it was easier to write in the first place. Another composer who has written some work for SF Movies and other work with SF in mind is Wendy Carlos (formerly Walter Carlos of "Switched-On Bach" recordings with a Mood synthesizer). Wendy wrote the soundtrack for TRON and has since written DIGITAL MOONSCAPES featuring her interpretations of several of the moons in our solar system, mainly those of Jupiter and Saturn, but those of Mercury and Earth as well. She explains in the commentary that comes with the recording that the work entitled "Europa" has a hopeful ending: "beneath the cracked-ice surface there may be life waiting to be thawed from its frozen prison as in Arthur C. Clarkes's 2010." Carlos has moved away from the Moog synthesizer and is now using what she calls the LSI Philharmonic (and yes, LSI stands for Large Scale Integration). She uses the new synthesizer with a "library" or recorded voices to create the music. It is quite interesting and I highly recommend it for those of you who like digitally synthesized music. -David Adler ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@topaz.arpa (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: advanced races visiting earth Date: 17 Jul 85 16:47:21 GMT If aliens come to earth to rip off anything, it's going to be the library of congress, the national archives, and the contents of the smithsonian (plus like stuff in other countries) not water or people. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 7:54:01 EDT From: "John f. Hardesty" Subject: Advanced Races - What would they come for In answer to all these questions about what an advanced race would come for (to earth that is). Consider this, a race (substitute empire, people, kingdom) has developed a transportation system that allows them to expand/explore/conquer new unknown territories. The main reason most exploration takes place is GREED or POWER or a combination of the two. An empire wants to expand its borders. OK Lets suppose it finds a world/(continent) filled with savages ( uneducated barbarians). They are searching for something to make the trip worth while. So they find this item , be it gold or water, and rob this world /land of its resources. As to the population of the world/land they get a superiority complex and consider the natives less than normal so they would treat them as `less than human`. As to a technologically advanced race subjugating another race, technology is no indication of socio-political advacements. As to wondering where this can be seen, just read your history books... The Europeans over the native americans empires of the 1400-1500`s . The Europeans were considered the most advanced of the time and yet they enslaved the Aztecs and Incan people. For even a more recent example , try the American Indian.. So advanced race could come here to conquer instead of befriend. But let's hope when our stellar neighbors show up, they will be benevolent and we have learned to learn in relative harmony with each other so that when they arrive they won't find a smoldering, irradiated planet. John Hardesty jhardest@bbncct.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Jul 85 2200-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #282 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 24 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 282 Today's Topics: Books - Brunner & Coulson & Generation Ship Stories & Robot Stories, Films - Film Fantasies & Star Trek, Music - SF and Music (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Plot Outlines & Christopher Lloyd & Quote Source & Alien Visitors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 21 Jul 85 01:48:47-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Re: Looking for `Shockwave Rider' To: cstvax!br@TOPAZ.ARPA A new print of Shockwave Rider is already out. I just got a copy last week in Cambridge (Massachusetts, not England). Del Ray SF (nee Ballentine SF), I think. --Rob ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Juanita Coulson Date: 18 Jul 85 14:45:36 GMT To the best of my recollection, David McDaniel informed me that Man from U.N.C.L.E. books #11 and #12 (by "Thomas Stratton") featuring colorless Wisconsin margarine as one of the plot elements--had actually been written by Buck and Juanita Coulson. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Generation Ships Date: 21 Jul 85 04:11:17 GMT Would anyone on the net who has read some good novels about ships going on journeys between the stars at sub-light speeds please send me E-mail with the titles and authors. I have just finished reading Harlan Ellison and Edward Bryant's "Phoenix Without Ashes" and would like to read some other similar stories. So far I have only read two, but both have been very good. The other one is called "Marathon" by D. Alexander Smith. It is about Earth sending out a sub-light ship on a journey to the first meeting with another race which also has sub-light ships. The journey takes seven years for the two ships to meet halfway between their perspective homeworlds. "Marathon" starts after the crew, mostly scientists and diplomats, have been in space for three and a half of those seven years. It is very interesting how the author handles the effects of such along trip in close quarters has on the various crewmembers. If anyone can take the time to send me some titles and authors I would really appreciate it. Kenneth Crist seismo!cvl!kwc Computer Vision Lab University of Maryland ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jul 85 17:31:56 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA There have been some responses to a request which appeared some time ago for stories about robots, but I have not seen any which attempted to give enough information to cover the various possibilities, given that the request was somewhat vague. I am sorry, but I did not save the original message, nor do I recall anyone else's responses quoting it. The term robots is generally taken to refer to self-motile, approximately human-sized, artificial entities, which may or may not be self-aware. Asimov has made one of his multitudinous concurrent careers writing about robots. One need only run the card catalog in the fiction section at the library to discover a wealth of robot stories. However, this is a stock character in SF, and most writers in the genre attempt it at one time or another. Clifford Simak's *City* has, I believe, already been mentioned. There are also a multitude of "humanoid" stories by Jack Williamson. Some are very old and some are very recent, but there was a long interregnum. I should point out that "humanoids" are not lovable characters. Roger Zelazny has written many stories about artificial intelligences, in all sizes and guises. A generally acclaimed one is "Home is the Hangman," in which opinion I concur. He has written a large number of short stories about cyborg, which are combinations of protoplasm and machine, like the '6 million dollar man' (The concept seems to have some fascination for him.). If the qualifications of self-motility or approximate human-size are removed, the choice of stories grows almost geometrically. Saberhagen's (others have mentioned in this regard) berserkers is another whole series of stories, including some novels. Larry Niven wrote a novel in which a computer played Tonto to the hero's Lone Ranger, called *A World Out of Time* (and it's a pretty good book). Several Heinlein novels feature sentient computers. Other stories including artificial intelligences which I found worthwhile include Roger Zelazny's "For a Breath I Tarry," which appears in the collection *The Last Defender of Camelot*, which also has the *marvelous* story, "The Stainless Steel Leech," about a vampire robot. Zelazny also wrote *Doorways in the Sand*, which is also interesting in this regard. From this category of artificial intelligences, there is a "recent" series from *Analog* which will appear soon in the bookstores, by Joseph H. Delany and Marc Stigler. The heroine, Valentina, is a computer program. ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: your film fantasies Date: 21 Jul 85 04:05:16 GMT > asking anyone/everyone to spout off on what things they always > wanted to see in films (esp. SF-related) - your visual fantasies, > if you will. I think the results should be interesting and > enjoyable for all. There are two categories of movies I like to see. The first are movies that go far beyond the ordinary world. Personally, I think "Dragonflight" would make a really primo movie, if you could manage to really make those dragons fly and live. (The story is much smaller and more focused than Dune, has a greater emotional impact, is much more personal, and requires much less philosophical background.) Picture a really beautiful mating flight scene, or the hatching scene, or flaming thread ... The other sort of movie I like is the movie near our world, but just a shade beyond. I really enjoyed "Blade Runner." The street scenes, the sets, the clothes and the technology all look so much like how 2019 in downtown Los Angeles would really feel. Notice the Atari ads in the background, or the Hari Krishnas and the Orthodox Jew. Note the international symbol cross walk, with speech synthesizer. The visual detail is stunning! The space station scene in 2001 gives much the same feel. Hilton & Ma Bell in orbit. > (P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?) Do the Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica episodes count? They had Gunfight at the O.K. corral and Shane, respectively. ------------------------------ From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Martin Landau trivia Date: 19 Jul 85 14:52:03 GMT > From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA > pepper shakers?" Now any Trekker knows that, but I didn't know > that they originally asked Martin Landau to play Spock. It makes > sense, since I've At Shore Leave VII this year, the guest was DeForest Kelley, a wonderful speaker. He told a little story of how he was the first one approached by Gene for the role of Spock. Kelley had worked with Gene on two other t.v. pilots, but Kelley was just starting out in the original Police Story (not the one in the 70's most people remember) which Gene also had a hand in so Kelley said no. Later when the second pilot was being shot, Gene wanted Kelley to play the Doctor, but Paramount had been using Kelley as a bad guy since 1948 and they didn't think he was right to play the kind old doctor. What changed their minds? Gene showed them a couple of Police Story episodes and the studio heads hired Kelley for Doctor McCoy, right after the second pilot was finished shooting. That is why we see no Doctor McCoy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Kenneth Crist kwc@cvl Computer Vision Lab University of Maryland ------------------------------ Subject: SF in music From: S. C. Colbath Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1985 16:00 EDT Can anyone tell me what group wrote/performed the song '2525' (I think that's the name)? I heard it on the radio, but the announcer had already given the name and the performer, and didn't do it again after the song, so I missed it. I think it was written sometimes in the late 1960s. The first lyric goes 'In the year Twenty-five Twenty-five', and each succeeding verse adds to it, with the last being (I think) 'In the year Fifty-five Fifty-five'... Pardon me if this one is too simple, it's just a little out of my time... -Sean ------------------------------ From: asente@Cascade.ARPA Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 19 Jul 85 21:03:48 GMT knf@druxo.UUCP (FricklasK) writes: > A song about video games on a recent Lou Reed album. Saying "Red Joystick" is about video games is like saying "Little Red Corvette" is about cars. (Apologies for disillusioning those who think that "Little Red Corvette" really IS about cars.) -paul asente asente@Cascade.ARPA decwrl!Glacier!Cascade!asente ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@topaz.arpa (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 19 Jul 85 11:45:47 GMT What about John Varley's Symbs in the 8 worlds series? My books are at home (natch) but I remember one pair, Barnum and Bailey whose speciality was composing. All the symbs had great artistic talent of some kind. B + B's masterwork was catalysed by sex, if I remember right. They used an emotion-linked synthesiser. I *LIKE* John Varley stories, even the not_quite_so_good ones. And for an obscure (SF && music) title - 'I love you, Miss Robot' by the Buggles (1980ish). Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: plot outlines Date: 16 Jul 85 22:30:39 GMT I've been asked to supply information about what a plot outline consists of, as in, what one might send the editor of a publisher. It has been suggested that I do so on the net rather than by mail. Okay. I've never done an outline in this form. I have seen one or two that have gone to editors, and seen the resulting books. In general, there is little or no relationship between the outline and the book that I have seen. The outline is usually in the form of one paragraph per chapter, and describes the basic action of that chapter. As in, "Chapter One: Zwiggle, an adolescent of the dominant race of planet Juju IV, discovers a strange being, actually a young, adolescent Earthgirl from an exploratory vessel. He immediatly falls in lover with her, kills her, and eats her for dinner. Chapter Two: Zwiggle begins to wonder if he should have eaten her. His best friend, Zwaggle, convinces him to try to find the rest of the aliens and they set off to..." That kind of thing. Insofar as I've been able to determine, the outline exists so that the editor, who has already decided to buy the book because he likes your intense, Hemmingway-esque style (especially during the cannible-procreation scenes) can have something to wave at the publishing committee so they will do what he wants them to (either agree to publish it, give the author more money for it, make it a lead title, whatever). My experience is EXTREMELY limited, so don't take any of this as gospel. There may well be publishers who pay attention to the plot outline, or use it to decide whether or not to buy the book, etc. For more information, I would suggest asking David Dyer-Bennet (whereever on the net he is) to please as his lovely and talented wife, Pamela Dean, to tell us about her experiences. That's the best I can do. Hope its some help. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner) Subject: Re: Christopher LLoyd Date: 19 Jul 85 14:31:58 GMT >From: Doug Krause >Here is everything that I can remember seeing >Chris Lloyd in: > >Rev. Jim Ignatouski "Taxi" >Lord Kruge "Star Trek III" >Doc E. Brown "Back To The Future" >Sargeant Schultz "To Be or Not To Be" >Frogface "The Lady In Red" >psycho patient "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" Well, I may have been on drugs (or may be now, for that matter), but I seem to remember him being in a very bad remake of "The Lone Ranger," as the head baddie. Jeez, that's really embarassing 1) to forget if he really was in there or not, and 2) to admit to having shelled out money to see that turkey of a movie! Roy Turner School of Information and Computer Science Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan D.) Subject: Banzai quote Date: 22 Jul 85 03:23:37 GMT Alright net-landers. I'm almost 1000% positive that the quote "wherever you go, there you are" comes from the lips of Reverend Jim in Taxi. Am I insane, or are you people afraid to attribute this great comment to its' original speaker? Jonathan D. Trudel arpa:trudel@ru-blue.arpa uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Subject: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 19 Jul 85 21:23:56 GMT > Is anyone familiar with any novels or stories in which the taking > of human (or other sentient) slaves by an advanced race is treated > with some degree of depth? I can't recall any right off-hand. If > so, what reasons are presented for such activities? Well, it wasn't *very* deep, bit I'll recommend Jack Lovejoy's "The Hunters". It is a novel about an alien invasion of the earth by superior aliens. They essentially convert earth into a game preserve, and use humans both as game and as "hunting dogs". I'll also recommend David Gerrold's The War with the Cthorr series. It is about an alien invasion which (a character conjectures) is due to the invader's planet becoming uninhabitable. I think that there are essentially two plausible categories for alien invasion of the earth. Recreation (or insanity) (a-la "The Hunters") and refuge from disaster (a-la The War with the Cthorr series). Earlier articles point out that we have no material wealth to offer an advanced technology, and slave labor seems ridiculously expensive to a technically advanced society. Living space might be a reason, but would require an unreasonably advanced transport technology to make it feasible and at the same time have the technology level low enough to preclude easier solutions to population pressure (such as Ringworlds). (The exception is when cost is no object, eg, the aliens need to escape from a supernova or the like.) The notion of humans as pets, game, or objects of sadism or fanaticism is, of course, old hat in the sf field, with innumerable examples. A somewhat less common related notion (that doesn't directly imply subjugation) is humankind as objects of tourism (which might be worse than subjugation :-). (Note that by "insanity" above, I simply mean behavior that is radically non-optimal for survival or efficiency. (I realize that with this broad a classification of insanity, I myself am insane, and recreation can be considered a subset of insanity.)) Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jul 85 2058-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #283 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 25 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 283 Today's Topics: Books - Biggle & McCollum & Age Differences in SF, Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) & Peter Douglas & Dune, Music - SF and Music (7 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 12:49:38 EDT From: Melinda Berkman Subject: arts in SF (not SF in music) I am surprised that no one mentioned Lloyd Biggle Jr. in the discussion of the arts in sf. Several of his books deal with art or music themes. I read them years ago from a library and don't remember them well, but I seem to recall at least two like this. "The Small Still Sound of Trumpets" dealt with the effects of musical innovation on a society (I think this was a sort of 'how can we get around the Prime Directive' type story). "The Light That Never Was" answered the question "If an animal creates art, does that make it an artist?" and extended the discussion to treatment of non-human sentients by a dominant human race. I remember thinking at the time that the author HAD to be an art major to have written such art-oriented work. There might have been one or two other books. The only book of Biggle's that I've found used is "Monument", which doesn't deal with art at all but which I've enjoyed every time I reread it and would heartily recommend. Unfortunately I think that all his work is out of print. Melinda Berkman (mberkman@bbnccs.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 13:40:23 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: Life Probe sequel The Universe works in mysterious ways. The day after I posted a message identifying the author of Life Probe as Michael McCollum, I went to the bookstore and...what's this? A new book by Michael McCollum? It's called Procyon's Promise, and it's a sequel to Life Probe (sequel, not continuation; the story takes place 300 years after the events in Life Probe.) I bought it. It's good. Read and enjoy. marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: SF using lover's age differences Date: 21 Jul 85 15:39:22 GMT > Varley's men are almost always twice (or more) the age of the > women they end up with...It's not something I mind, it's just > something I found curious... Has anyone else noticed this or am I > just imaging it? Larry Niven tends to have a great age mismatch between his lovers, also. For instance, in Ringworld we have Teela Brown and Louis Wu. And who can forget the lady with the horrible long name that Louis finally gets? (I'm not at home, so can't look it up.) There are other examples, also. What other SF writers have used this device? Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky) Subject: Re: Back to The Future (SPOILER) wrt ``Multiverse causality'' Date: 21 Jul 85 03:33:41 GMT *** SPOLIER SPOILER SPOILER *** > The one thing that bothered me about Back to the Future wasn't > that it made use of parallel universes but that it seemed to use > them wrong. Marty changed both universes. The changes to the > universe he returned to were obvious: his parents had different > personalities, he had a new truck, etc... However, he also > changed the universe he left. He invented rock and roll > (essentially). While he is playing Jonny B Goode at the dance (in > 1955), the guitarist with the broken arm (whose name was something > Berry) calls his brother "Chuck" to tell him about this great new > style of music that Marty is playing. This means that universe 1 > (where Marty started) shouldn't have had any rock music in it > because Marty wasn't around in 1955 to let Chuck know about it. > Of course, it did because otherwise Marty wouldn't have known the > song (or have been in a rock band). Nah, Marty I going back in time is actually Marty I going to the 1950's in the-universe-in-which-Marty-I-goes-to-the-50's (ie, universe II). This is the same universe that will contain the ``Lone Pine Mall'', etc. In universe II, Marty I is the inventor of rock. Back in universe I, in its own 1950's, events proceeded as we know them. My question is, what happens to Marty II when he takes off in the DeLorean for the ``past?'' Does he go to the 1950's of universe I -- or somewhen else entirely? Off hand, I'd have to vote for the latter; a closed loop in the multiverse seems to be a pretty nasty violation of causality in the system. Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 01:03:45 pdt From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Back to the Future I just saw "Back to the Future". It is slightly similar to "Wargames" and to "Buckaroo Bonzai", but better than either. I can't wait to see it again. Cheers. -s ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 85 09:15:04 PDT (Monday) From: JOConnell.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Peter V. Douglas This excerpt is taken from the Monday, July 22, 1985 edition of the Los Angeles Times. It is in an article by Times Staff writer Deborah Caulfield. The article is an interview with producer Peter Vincent Douglas ("Fletch", "The Final Countdown", "Something Wicked This Way Comes"). "In addition, he has projects in various stages at various studios, although many share a common genre--science fiction. "'I really (italicized) love science fiction,' he confessed. 'I just got my first writing assignment at (20th Century) Fox to do a remake of "The Day The Earth Stood Still", plus Michael Phillips ("Close Encounters of the Third Kind") and I are working on a space comedy for Columbia and "The End of Eternity" (based on an Isaac Asimov story) at Tri-Star.' "Douglas paused for a moment, perhaps a bit surprised at the number of projects, then reiterated, 'I cannot tell you what a pleasure it is to finally be on my own.'" End of excerpt. Jim O'Connell (JOConnell.es@Xerox) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 09:45:29 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #274 (Mad Max) If you recognised scenes from Dune, I am surprised you didn't recognise the full moon shot. I haven't seen Thunderdome, but the full moon is certainly from Dune, where Paul looks up at the moon, inexplicably, until he asks the Fremen what the mouse-shape is called -- "Muad Dib". (I said "'Mouse shape'? Mouse shape?! What mouse shape?!?" I guess we were seeing all those moon shots so we could remember the shape of the "man-in-the-moon" sort of visual feature. Well I sure didn't...) Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF in music (Brian May) Date: 20 Jul 85 15:13:41 GMT > From: tellab3!thoth (marcus hall) > The song by Queen is called '39. It is on the album "A Night at > the Opera". [...] It's a favorite of many people I know. I > didn't expect something like this from Queen, but supposedly Brian > May, I believe, who wrote the song dabbles into astronomy. Dabbles? He has a PhD!! Sources I have seen differ as to whether the degree is in Physics or Astronomy, but I'm not sure that it really matters. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: uvacs!hsd@topaz.arpa (Harry S. Delugach) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 18 Jul 85 17:07:21 GMT >>I've been following SF-LOVERS for about 9 months now and I've seen >>many forms of SF discussed with the exception of one which I find >>surprising. Nobody ever seems to talk about music, either its SF >>content or the influences it may have had on some piece of SF >>writing. > >I concur. And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging >conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of >written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One such might >be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_. Perhaps these are more in the realm of fantasy (as opposed to science fiction), but Anne McCaffrey's Dragon series generally employ music and musicians, and a couple of them have been centered around music. Sometimes music which is unheard by the reader can create interesting moods, since the reader's imagination supplies its own sounds to the music's (written) description. Harry S. Delugach University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science UUCP: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!hsd CSNET: hsd@virginia ------------------------------ From: bunkerb!mary@topaz.arpa (Mary Shurtleff) Subject: Re: Music in SF Date: 19 Jul 85 12:08:24 GMT > From: kdale@MINET-VHN-EM >>I concur. And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging >>conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of >>written SF in which music played a dominant theme? > > One story that I haven't seen mentioned is: > Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?) > No, it was Anne McCaffrey, actually. Another example of musically-oriented SF is the short story "The Tunesmith", by Lloyd Biggle, Jr. It tells of a man named Erlin Baq who writes jingles for commercials which become popular for themselves. There's lots more to it than that, but it would take a while to describe. It's a very good story. M. Shurtleff ....decvax!ittatc!bunker!bunkerb!mary ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Jul 85 12:13:48 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Music in SF, SF in Music More Music In SF: "Nothing But Gingerbread Left" Cyril Kornbluth (the utlimate jingle strikes again) "A Work of Art" James Blish, found among other places in PERCHANCE TO DREAM (anthology of art & SF) [ if memory serves] "The Ninth Symphony of Ludwig Van Beethoven and Other Lost Songs", Carter Scholz "White Hole" (by yours truly), ASCENTS OF WONDER, ed Dave Gerrold "The Education of Drusilla Strange", Theodore Sturgeon (music figures heavily in this) "The Big Flash" Norman Spinrad (atomic rock) THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION, "Empire Star", NOVA, Samuel Delaney (protagonists all are musicians [ flute/axe, ocarina, sensory syrinx respectively] ) The above topic has LOTS of entries - I don't know what the mystery is all about... More SF in Music: THE ROAD GOES EVER ON, Flanders & Swann -- settings of Tolkein songs Shadowfax -- a rock group a song on an early Tom Rapp ( of Pearls Before Swine) album which seems to be a Bradbury story [spacemen falling into the atmosphere] Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sun 21 Jul 85 17:34:21-PDT From: Douglas M. Olson Subject: Music in SF Several folks have mentioned the lyrics of the British group Hawkwind, but I haven't seen any mention of the SF story written by Michael Moorcock around the group! Moorcock himself appears as Moorlock the Acid Sorceror; the group faces some nasties and tries to save the world. Quite entertaining and more enthusiastic than much of his stuff. Oh, its called "The Time of the Hawklords" and was written with Michael Butterworth, C. 1976. Doug ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.ARPA (Jonathan D.) Subject: sf in music Date: 22 Jul 85 01:45:21 GMT Boy, thinking about this one really brings me back. Back in the mid-70s there was an album called 'The Intergalactic Touring Band' that was a group effort album. There were many people who contributed to the album, but the only one I remember is Meat Loaf. Anyhow, the album was a collection of songs, all being sf in nature. There were songs about a lot of things, and these are the ones I remember: 1) the IGTB theme song 2) intergalactic zoos 3) salesmen that sold robots with the latest Vibracon Globes, 4) galactic warriors telling their tales and so on. I haven't seen the album in years since my brother hid it because I played it so much. It was a really nifty album, and it came with a small storybook, and the record sleeve was a futuristic order form. Does anyone else remember this one? Jonathan D. Trudel arpa:trudel@ru-blue.arpa uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: Mon 22 Jul 85 10:15:15-PDT From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: _Crystal Singer_ > One story that I haven't seen mentioned is: > Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?) _Crystal Singer_ was written by Anne MacCaffrey. BTW, Does anyone have the complete lyrics of Heinlein's "Green Hills of Earth" Thanks. Aline ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens Date: 19 Jul 85 13:47:19 GMT Possible answers to the question "Where are the aliens?" (most of which have appeared in numerous SF stories): (a) They are here. They're just clever enough to disguise themselves or conceal themselves or avoid capture. (Certainly very reasonable; human spies can go undetected for years, even in the most suspicious of environments. Non-humanoids would find this more difficult, but they could easily observe from a short distance.) (b) Any race sufficiently advanced to have achieved inter-stellar travel has also achieved "civilization" in the sense that they are above interfering with the development of other species. Therefore they let us develop in peace and stay out of our way until we have evolved past animalistic aggression. (c) Some race is sufficiently advanced to maintain inter-stellar peace, at least in the local region of space. Maybe there are a lot of nasties out there, but the local rulers believe in non-interference and have sufficient clout to enforce the policy. (d) Several races are actively at war in space. Either earth is in a demilitarized zone, or it is militarily unimportant. The warfare takes up the time and effort of participants and they don't waste energy on planets that are no current threat. (e) Space races are terrified of humans for some reason. Or of earth in general (e.g. because there are numerous diseases here, because something nasty lives here secretly, etc.). (f) FTL travel is impossible. Inter-stellar travel requires the colony ship approach or suspended animation. Everything is subject to relativistic effects like time dilation. This makes exploration much more difficult and time-consuming. It just so happens we haven't been found yet; indeed, many races may decide that inter-stellar colonization is economically pointless and may do their best to live at home. (g) Earth is the only planet where life (or technological life) ever developed...or at least the only planet in the neighbourhood. I've probably left out a few explanations from the list. Variations are many; take (c), for example, inter-stellar peace-keepers who prevent nasties from interfering. These could be benevolent beings; malevolent beings who wipe out any race that ventures into space; a doomsday ship that was programmed by someone to hang around Jupiter and shoot anything that happens by; a natural or artificial barrier that makes our region of space difficult to enter; and so on. Okay guys, hop on the bandwagon and add to the list. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jul 85 2130-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #284 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 25 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 284 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein, Films - Cocoon & Explorers, Music - Music and SF (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aliens (2 msgs) & Spoilers & Christopher Lloyd & Quote Source ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 13:15:10 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Heinlein's Glaroon >>From: Alvin Wong >>Someone asked what was the "Glaroon" in a couple of >>Heinlein's stories. I did not see an answer to this. >From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) >I was the one, and no one has responded to me, yet. The two >places in which the references appear are in _JOB_ and in a >short-story called _They_. Funny, I don't recall it in *Job*, but for sure it's in the ending of #otB. I looked for my copy of *Glory Road*, so that I could verify, because I'm pretty sure that this is the critter that the protagonist causes to swallow itself. But since the book appears to have grown a pair of legs (or something) . . . Maybe somebody else can check it with that info. I'd bet there's something on that planet (with the six-legged horses, etc.) that was called "Glaroon". Paula%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 22 Jul 1985 11:42:34-PDT From: goun%whoaru.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Heisenberg may have slept here) Subject: "Cocoon" query I finally got to see "Cocoon" yesterday, and came away sorely puzzled at some obvious consequences of the ending. Can anyone out there enlighten me? ** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** SPOILER ** The boat captain (whose name I've forgotten) is left floating in a rubber raft when the "Arcturians" and the old people are lifted up to the mothership in his boat. Presumably, he survives. A little later, though, we see the funeral scene, suggesting that the old folks are thought to have drowned. Wouldn't our hero return to civilization to find himself charged with thirty counts of manslaughter, at the very least? Should I put this down to another case of Hollywood playing fast and loose with reason, or am I missing something? Roger Goun ARPA: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 13:59:18 CST From: Doug Monk Subject: Re : Explorers and the 9-volt space drive First, a micro-review : I attended the movie with three friends. I really liked it. The two friends who were SF fans thought it was too silly. The third just thought it was silly, but thinks all SF is silly. I know, maybe it is silly, but I found it immensely entertaining : it is humourous and takes unexpected turns, like a roller-coaster. End of review. *** mild spoiler warning for following discussion *** In SF-LOVERS V10, #275, someone asks the very cogent question : >where does a 9-volt battery get the energy required to dig 5' >diameter holes in the ground? I believe people who like a particular movie are more willing to rationalize on its behalf, but just because you don't like one, don't be nit-picky. The circuit being used as a space-drive was alien to the kids building it. They didn't understand it, and neither presumably would we. The fact that there was a nine-volt battery in the circuit does not necessarily mean that ALL the power being channeled through the device comes from the battery. If I told you to build an automobile without explaining to you all of the principles involved, you might have some mistaken ideas about the end result. After all, my pickup has a twelve-volt battery in it, and still manages 55 mph on the freeway quite nicely, thank you. *** end mild spoiler *** There is a sequence in the movie which has been made into a video, which I have seen on MTV. I thought it was quite funny, myself. If you don't mind a little silly in your soup, you might like _Explorers_. Doug Monk (bro@rice.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 13:44:36 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: Music in SF (or, Notes From All Over) I'm surprised no one has mentioned "A Work of Art" by James Blish. It concerns the revivification, as a scientific experiment, of the composer Richard Strauss in the year 2161. The arts, especially music, are central to the story. It is probably the best thing Blish ever wrote and one of the most moving stories I have ever read. It was first published as "Art Work" in the July '56 SF Stories; if you don't have a pile of 30-year-old magazines around the house, it can be found in the Blish collections Galactic Cluster and New Dreams This Morning, and in numerous anthologies. marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 22 Jul 1985 14:31:14-PDT From: redford%avoid.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (John Redford) Subject: music in SF: "Tintagel" Two other SF novels heavily involved with music are "On Wings of Song" by Thomas Disch, and "Tintagel" by Paul Cook. The premise in OWoS is that with mechanical aid a good singer can release her/his soul from the body and flutter off to Nirvana. A Midwestern farm boy yearns to become a singer, and has many satiric adventures on the way. Disch gets in lots of (undeserved!) jabs at Iowa and America in general. He writes like a non-luuded-out Kurt Vonnegut and is always worth reading, but usually depressing. "Tintagel" is unusual in that the music in it is all modern classical. The idea here is that if you are infected with a certain plague, music has the literal power to take you to another world. You disappear in a small "Poof!" of inrushing air, and appear in the world evoked by the piece. The more familiar the music the easier it is to vanish, so traditional classical music and popular music have been banned. People still crave music of some form, so twentieth century classical is revived, since no one but a few connoiseurs knows it. People are still disappearing, though, so our hero (who has the ability to return from the evoked worlds) has to bring them back. The premise is kind of interesting, but not well handled. The author obviously loves modern classical, and resorted to this somewhat tortuous device to work it into a story. John Redford ------------------------------ From: cstvax!br@topaz.arpa (Brian Ritchie) Subject: Re: Music in Science Fiction Date: 25 Jul 85 13:03:52 GMT Then there's the short story from Norman Spinrad's `No Direction Home' anthology, titled `The Big Flash' (I think), wherein a rock group called The Four Horsemen get to be quite important. **** SPOILER **** They live out their name by giving a concert televised world-wide that psyches everyone into setting of their entire nuclear arsenals (hence the title). That they're going to do something like that is fairly obvious from the start (although their manager only sees $$$), so I don't think this is much of a spoiler; the power of the tale is in the way Spinrad tells it. I'm sure he was thinking of The Doors! ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (Sxyzyskzyik) Subject: Music in Science Fiction Date: 22 Jul 85 18:48:16 GMT Ah, well, Jack Vance's Anome trilogy (the first volume has also been titled _The_Faceless_Man_; _The_Brave_Free_Men_; _The_Asutra_) has a musician (and even the son of a musician) as a protagnist, and in fact, not only has his life been shaped by his career and his origins, but his survival in the third volume depends upon his musical training. [Quiz for Vance fans is in my name above.] If we expand the topic to include fantasy, there's Patricia C. Wrede's _The_ Harp_of_Imach_Thyssel_. There are also songs of significance in Pamela C. Dean's _The_Secret_Country_, and there are these cardinals singing at interesting times. (birds, not bishops) Anne McCaffrey probably has a couple of science fiction books in which music plays an important part, based upon titles. Thomas Disch's _On_the_Wings_of_Song_. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: What 'they' would come here to get... Date: 21 Jul 85 15:52:29 GMT Let's not forget the (supposed) reason that the Europeans came to the new world--to "save souls". (Yes, I know that in many cases that was only a cover for rape, slavery and plunder. But many really believed it. Rightly or wrongly--I think wrongly, but I'm a pagan, so what do I know?) Suppose the race in question felt they had the secret of universal truth, and the only way to live and/or worship some sort of supreme being. Suppose they had the resources to make the trip. You better believe they'd do it. And they might not be very nice about it, either. Fanaticism has produced a lot of woe on earth. There is no reason to suppose it would not do the same in this case. Are there any SF stories out on this sort of scenario? Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 10:19 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Why leave home at all? I think this discussion of "What aliens would come to Earth for" brings a number of very good points to light that need to be considered. I like it primarily for its reverse question "Why would we leave Earth?" First of all, the idea of water and slaves seems to be fairly absurd, although I do like the artistic servitude concept. Sort of like Niven's Thrints and their Tnuctip slaves. The Thrints were so used to controlling people that they forgot how to think and *had* to have the Tnuctips do it. But all good things must come to an end. Pournelle also wrote a very plausible slavery idea in Jannisaries and the sequel Clan And Crown where the aliens were smuggling drugs. They snag some humans and plant them on a planet saying, "We'll be back in a year, have the drugs ready." The stories are very well thought out. Quite enjoyable. I'm hoping for a third book. At any rate, the concept of aliens being as far ahead of us as we are to an ape is very logical. It is unlikely that any race as unstable as we seem to be would make it into space for any significant length of time. And even if we did it would probably be militaristic and quite dominating (at least if we went now it would be). I think we need to grow up a bit first. The point is that there are no short term goals in space. If it takes a year to get to Mars then you can forget just about every short term profit beyond the moon. Granted that mining will have some benefit, but there is some work to be done first. Another long term project. Now, what long term projects would be useful to a space faring race? Consider the fact that this planet is doomed. It will not last forever. At the rate we are polluting it and using up its resources, it may not last another century. Where will mankind go? My idea is to get all the hazardous industries off planet. Anything that could seriously jeopardize the ecology should be isolated from it. Even so that is merely a postponement of the inevitable. The planet will die. So will the sun, and most likely everything else. If Mankind is to survive the destruction of this solar system, and even, dare we think it, the next big bang, he will need to be able to live in space. For a *long* time. We will only be able to find habitable planets for so long. Granted that this requires some changes. We need to beat the lightspeed barrier. We need to get a global thought pattern going. Mankind needs to consider the race instead of the individual (although not to the individual's exclusion). We need to think of the future instead of the present or we will all be revealed as the hedonistic little apes that we are. Why would aliens come to visit? What could they want with us? They can get the tv from space, and hopefully they would have something better. All the elements we have can be found elsewhere. And we are dangerous! Consider yourself as a starship captain. Consider that a nuke could probably blow a hole in just about ANYTHING. The only way I would land is if I was quick and hidden, or had an entire invasion force. And why in the galaxy would anyone take Earth over? Sure it's a nice place, but heck, we've torn the place up like the squatters we are. If they leave us alone, chances are we will destroy ourselves. Nope, aliens will play hit and run (like Doug Adams saying that alien teenagers buzz the planet for fun) or they won't bother. So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt. If Mankind is to survive, we must take to the stars. There is nowhere else to go. It may be viewed as running from one problem into another, but it is the only choice, aside from racial suicide. Does anyone want to be a dinosaur? Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 03:40:50 PDT From: utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse@uw-beaver.arpa (der Mouse) Subject: LadyHawke and spoilers (***LADYHAWKE SPOILER***) There has been a lot of argument (flame? |-) recently here about spoilers. I recall one person who picked on a review of LadyHawke which gave away the nature of the curses as something which should have been labeled spoiler but wasn't. Well, LadyHawke came to our local repertory theatre and I quote from their programme (for July 15): 7:00 LADYHAWKE D: Richard Donner (1985 U.S.A.) 121 min. (14) Michelle Pfeiffer, Rutger Hauer, John Wood, Matthew Broderick. Set in the Middle Ages and based on mythology of that time. A beautifully photographed tale of a romance between a Princess (bewitched into becoming a hawk by day) and her suitor, Navarre, who is cursed to be a wolf by night. An impish, Puck-like boy thief (Matthew Broderick) is the go-between for these 'bewitched' lovers. A magical, fun-filled adventure that is refreshingly well done. So it seems sf-lovers reviewers aren't the only guilty ones. der Mouse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jul 85 18:35:50 EDT From: Joel B Levin Subject: Re: Christopher Lloyd To: dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa I have not seen any comments on this list, so I'll throw 2 cents: >From: Doug Krause >Here is everything that I can remember seeing Chris Lloyd in: >"Taxi" "Star Trek III" "Back To The Future" "To Be or Not To Be" >"The Lady In Red" "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" I recently rented "The Lady in Red" (Gene Wilder) and do not remember Christopher Lloyd or a "Frogface". But everyone seems to forget (and it is easy) the infamous Major Bartholomew Cavendish (a horribly made over copy of the original standard villainous outlaw Butch Cavendish) from the recent Lone Ranger movie. /JBL ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!regard@topaz.arpa (Adrienne Regard) Subject: "Where ever you go. . ." Date: 22 Jul 85 15:32:45 GMT "Where ever you go, there you are" has been around for literally decades. The now-condemned Showboat Theatre in Seattle, Washington had this written on it's graffiti wall, along with "No man is a nylon, a tire unto himself" "less is more" and "Back in 15 minutes - Godot", where it has been for well over 20 years, to my certain knowledge, and probably longer. The credit does not go to Reverend Jim, the "Taxi" writers, Back to the Future or whatever. It's much older than that. Adrienne Regard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Jul 85 2152-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #285 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 25 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 285 Today's Topics: Films - SF Westerns & The Black Cauldron, Music - SF and Music (6 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aliens & Generation Ships & Christopher Lloyd & Cuteness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chabot@miles.DEC (Sxyzyskzyik) Subject: Science Fiction Westerns Date: 22 Jul 85 19:10:59 GMT "Westworld" is obvious, and "Star Wars" is good too, but "Outland" was really "High Noon" with a few changes and fancy sets. There are also Star Trek episodes (and it's amazing how many distant planets look like Vasquez Rocks) & novels that are westerns. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: "The Black Cauldron" Date: 21 Jul 85 01:52:32 GMT Disney's animated films will always, in my view, suffer from the fact that I compare them with "Pinocchio". No one has ever made an animated film up to the technical standards of "Pinocchio". Some of the contemporary Disney films came close, and "The Secret of NIMH" is the nearest modern equivalent, but their animation just isn't up to "Pinocchio". Which brings us to "The Black Cauldron". Fool that I was, I thought that, since Disney's animators had spoken of this film as a return to the old standards, and since they took about a decade to make it, "The Black Cauldron" might be in the same technical ballpark as "Pinocchio". The first shot, an incredibly bad multiplane camera effect, dispelled that delusion at once. While most of the other effects animation was of much higher quality, and "The Black Cauldron" had some very fine moments, it does not recall the Disney of the forties so much as the Disney of the early sixties. "The Black Cauldron" looks much more like "The Sword in the Stone" than "Pinocchio". Technical matters aside, "The Black Cauldron" is not at all bad, but neither is it the miraculous rebirth of quality animated films that the Disney advertising people would have us believe. The story, drastically compacted into less than 90 minutes from a four volume children's fantasy by Lloyd Alexander (which was based on certain themes from Celtic mythology), concerns a young lad, Taran, and his comrades, who must find and destroy the titular cauldron before it is discovered by the villainous Horned King. The cauldron allows its possessor to revivify the dead, turning them into an army of zombies. "The Black Cauldron" benefits from some strong points and suffers from too many weak ones. One of the worst things about it is that the heroic characters are not very well animated and are fundamentally dull. Comparison of their facial expressions to those in Will Vinton's Claymation films shows how poorly they duplicate real humans. Another technical point: one can invariably tell which objects are to be used in a shot and which are merely background. A further deficit is a over-commitment to the cute and the marketable. One of the good guys is Gurgi, a shaggy something. Gurgi is calculatingly cute, yet I couldn't help liking him, and the film would have been all right on this count if it had stopped while it was ahead. However, a bunch of cutesy fairies appearing later were too saccharine for my tastes. I strongly suspect that, six months from now, I will have had far more than I can take of Gurgi dolls and Gurgi lunchboxes and Gurgi pillows and Gurgi cereal and Gurgi notebooks and Gurgi teeshirts and Gurgi toilet paper and an ocean of other Gurgi paraphernalia, much in the manner of the oversold E.T. Now, unaffected by these waves of greed, I can appreciate the little sucker. The compression of the story cut out some characters and reduced the roles of others. A bard who accompanies the heros serves no purpose but comic relief of a very tired sort. Also, removal of an important character forced the writers (eight or nine of them - compression isn't easy) into compromising a rather fundamental point of the saga, greatly softening the resulting film. The compression wasn't all bad, as the story does move briskly. Unfortunately, without some of the background material, certain actions of the heros seem exceptionally foolish. The core of the story, a good one, remains. The best thing about the film is the villains. They are superb, especially the Horned King. His nasty retainers and charnel house surroundings offer him excellent support, and set the nightmare schedule of the younger viewers for the next couple of months. The animators rarely go wrong when they are dealing with the bad guys. "The Black Cauldron" is photographed in 70mm, which implies widescreen. This resulted in a lot of extra work for the animators, and a couple years of delay. Not surprisingly, the results are similar to those of most live action films shot in widescreen. Action and spectacle shots look better, intimate shots involving a couple of characters talking together suffer from irrelevant borders. Fortunately, more of the film benefits from the wide format than suffers form it. The voices are generally good. Except for a brief prologue spoken by John Huston, they are not overly familiar, a great failing of recent Disney animated films. (Eva Gabor as the voice of Miss Bianca! Really, now!) There are a few well known names behind the voices. John Hurt isn't a bit recognizable as the Horned King, but speaks superbly. Freddie Jones does what can be done with the mediocre lines of the bard. John Byner adds immeasurably to the character of Gurgi with his vocal interpretation, almost a textbook example of matching character to voice. (The order it was actually done, by the way. Record first, draw later, thus ensuring synchronisation of voice to lips.) "The Black Cauldron" is a must for animation fans and parents of not-too-small children, with said little folks in tow. It figures to be the divorced father movie of the summer. General audiences will probably appreciate it, but are unlikely to respond with vigorous enthusiasm. Considering its tremendous cost, the Disney people will probably be releasing it for years to come before they show a profit on their investment. Do your bit for the future of animation and see "The Black Cauldron". Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!allen@topaz.arpa (John Allen) Subject: Re: Science Fiction Music, sometimes known as filk Date: 22 Jul 85 21:51:40 GMT > Some of the best writers/performers of this genre are > Leslie Fish, Julia Ecklar, Juanita Coulson, Joey Shoji, Clif Flynt > & Mary Ellen Wessels, the LA Filkharmonics (In space no one can > hear you sing)... > Marina Fournier > Xerox Artifical Intelligence Systems > Pasadena, CA > You left out my favorite filker, Cynthia McQuillan. She has a lot of very good stuff out. John Allen Ohio State University (UUCP: cbosgd!osu-eddie!allen) (CSNet: allen@ohio-state) ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 23 Jul 1985 14:30:08-PDT From: francini%argus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (This Space Available for Rent From: or Lease) Subject: SF-related music There was a popular song out in the summer/fall of '83 entitled 'Major Tom', put out by some group in Germany. I have the single of it, (at home of course,) and it has the song recorded in English on one side and German on the other. Oh yes: the full title was "Major Tom (Coming Home)". It is definitely an SF song, and a video that was made for it that MTV showed for a while had most of the song's action taking place in orbit around the Earth. Just my $.02 worth... John Francini arpa: francini@Argus.DEC usenet: ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-argus!francini ------------------------------ From: allynh@ucbvax.ARPA (Allyn Hardyck) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 23 Jul 85 01:29:12 GMT asente@Cascade.UUCP (Paul Asente) writes: >>A couple of other sci-fi related songs are: >> A song about video games on a recent Lou Reed album. >Saying "Red Joystick" is about video games is like saying "Little >Red Corvette" is about cars. I think he was referring to "Down At The Arcade". ------------------------------ From: ecrcvax!snoopy@topaz.arpa (Sebastian Schmitz) Subject: Re: SF in music (Brian May) Date: 22 Jul 85 21:19:19 GMT This is not true. Brian May did do some research in the area and he has published a paper on the "Motion of Interstellar Dust". He was working on his thesis for his PhD but never got it published or accepted because he did not finish it. Too much time taken playing for Queen. I have this on reliable source (himself, in fact). Actually he is still very interested in astronomy/astrophysics. He is however a big fan of SF (as is Roger Taylor - Queens drummer) as witnessed on the "News of the World" cover and Roger Taylors "Fun in Space" album (and cover). Also of course the Flash Gordon film soundtrack got underway mainly because Brian got hooked on it and wrote most of the songs. Also he did a hard rock version of the Starfleet theme song (with Van Halen, Fred Mandel (I think)). To be heard to be believed. Incidentally whoever put the original query in: I replied to you without following up - perhaps you could repost my reply to you to the net, so that other people could take advantage of my posting. I reckon I put quite a few pointers to SF music in. Thanks, Love, Sebastian (Snoopy) !mcvax!unido!ecrcvax!snoopy ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!gdh@topaz.arpa (Gareth Husk) Subject: Re: Music in SF Date: 22 Jul 85 18:55:39 GMT Yet more examples of music/ian being a dominant theme in an SF/F novel are: (i) 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' (Short story) (ii) 'The Road to Corley' Both are by Richard Cowper and are published by Pan in the UK. I think 'Piper...' is in a book called 'The Guardians' I'd appreciate help in finding a copy of this as I really enjoyed the story. Gareth. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gdh DARPA: gdh%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: gdh@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4146 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: aplvax!mae@topaz.arpa (Mary Anne Espenshade) Subject: Re: Music in SF Date: 23 Jul 85 21:24:05 GMT On the topic of music in SF, I have a different sort of example - the Japanese animated series Mospeada. The title of each of the 25 episodes includes a musical term or a reference to musical performance. Some examples, with the musical reference marked - 1. *Prelude* to Attack 6. Young Girl *Blues* 7. *Ragtime* for a Dead Hero 9. Lost World *Fugue* 10. *Requiem* of the Battlefield 25. *Symphony* of Light One of the main characters, Yellow Belmont, is a rock star and his performances are used as cover for the resistance groups attacks against the aliens who have invaded and control Earth. Unfortunately, the cut up version of this show now being seen in the U.S. as part of Robotech, along with episodes from the unrelated shows Macross and Southern Cross, has entirely new titles and a new sound track. Yellow's character was mostly cut out, since he performs as a woman and frequently dresses and acts femininely - and you can't allow that in a "children's" show. They even changed the character's name, adding a line about Yellow being just a stage name. Mary Anne Espenshade ...!{allegra, seismo}!umcp-cs!aplvax!mae ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 23 Jul 85 20:16:21 GMT > Is anyone familiar with any novels or stories in which the taking > of human (or other sentient) slaves by an advanced race is treated > with some degree of depth? > Jeff Rogers > jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA This is probably not quite what you were after, but hopefully still relevant. In SUNDIVER and STARTIDE RISING, David Brin has postulated an interesting idea: the enslavement of an entire race. (Has anyone seen this idea before? If so, where?) The "advanced" races were basically fighting over the "rights" to own the human race. After all, it's silly to allow a violent, un-monitored race to exist. Who knows what they might do? The only reason humanity escaped was that none of the races would allow any other to have them. (flames to /dev/null, please, if my memory is faulty.) Now, this sounds highly plausible to me. Wouldn't humanity benefit from having access to the *entire* scientific, artistic, and philosophical output of another intelligent species? And what if they were telepathic? Then what wouldn't we do to control them? Taking it as a given that humans have a different perspective on life, the universe, and everything (sorry, Doug) from our hypothetical aliens, we might have something(s) they would kill (or even cross interstellar space) to get. As to expense; once you collect a sufficient sample, you cart them to your own system, give them a "game preserve," and they will be self supporting. You just quietly skim a few off the top every year to fill your own needs. (Now, does anyone want to discuss the large number of disappearances every year on this planet?) BTW, does anyone know just how many people it would take to "guarantee" a safe gene pool? How about cultural continuity? With luck, they may revere us as gods. ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ From: sommers@topaz.ARPA (Mamaliz @ The Soup Kitchen) Subject: Re: Generation Ships Date: 23 Jul 85 10:10:53 GMT Two good stories about generation ships are The Ballad of Beta-2 Samuel Delaney (and not at all like Dhalgren, for those of you who are scared of Delaney) Orphan in the Sky ??? RAH (I think this is the title) liz sommers uucp: {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard} !topaz!sommers arpa: sommers@rutgers ------------------------------ Date: Mon 22 Jul 85 09:10:19-PDT From: DEKEMA%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: Christopher Lloyd An addition to Doug Krause's list: I was surprised to discover while watching "Mr. Mom" for the third time that Christopher Lloyd plays Larry, one of Jack Butler's carpool buddies. BTW, I don't know if there is a net.comedy but "Mr. Mom" is great fun. Michael Keaton, Teri Garr and Martin Mull are all at their near best. Jeannie Hobbs (on Jan Dekema's acct at HP Labs Palo Alto) ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness Date: 22 Jul 85 18:26:43 GMT Interesting theory about cuteness: we did it ourselves. This has nothing to do with the discussion of Ewoks being cute, but it's an interesting hypothesis. Baby animals are "cute" primarily because humans find them cute. Over millions of years of evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait, because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all was reluctant to kill cute animals. Of course there are good physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies, but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well. End of pointless diversion: Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Jul 85 1212-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #286 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 26 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 286 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Spinrad & Yolen & D&D in Books , Films - 2010 & Back to the Future & Star Trek & Mad Max, Music - SF and Music (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - Cuteness & Technology vs Magic & Christopher Lloyd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: My first entry From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1985 09:27 EDT Responding to John at Topaz, no I really didn't notice that the Gaian girl, Bliss (wasn't that her name), was like the one in The End of Eternity. It has however been quite a while the I read EOE. I do note that Isaac is trying to many of his novels together into a sort of 'Foundation Universe' to use his own words. Similar in a way to Larry Niven's Known Space. I think however that he is stretching to some degree. Certainly 'Pebble in the Sky' and ' The Stars Like Dust' do deal with the Galactic Empire, and Earth's penchant for radioactivity. One can see some justification for his tying the robot novels into it also, but it is reaching. In the end, I'm sure he'll pull everything together. Gaia will probably be explained away as a race of mutated robots, formed out of a less than casual encounter between Giskard, (the mind reading robot from 'The Robots of Dawn', the latest in female humaniform robots from some time on Aurora's future, (future as of time of Robots of Dawn). Gaia may even be Aurora, or one of the other Spacer worlds. After stagnating for another few thousand years, the populations of those robot dependent worlds just die off, leaving a hardier earth population to expand. Meanwhile the robots, thus isolated, begin evolving on their own, and driven by the 1st Law once again interject themselves back into humanity's future. In any event, it's fun to speculate, and I'm waiting anxiously for the next Foundation Book. ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: The Mind Game Date: 22 Jul 85 19:28:47 GMT I recently read _The_Mind_Game_, by Norman Spinrad. It was one of the best novels I have ever read. I highly recommend it to anyone over the (mental) age of eighteen. The story concerns a man whose wife joins a fringe religious group (like the Scientologists, Moonies, or whatever) called the Transformationalists. He then joins the group to try to get her out. More than that I won't say. I noticed that the copyright date is 1980, but there is no indication of any previous publication. Does anyone know if this is a reprint; or if not, why the old copyright? I can well believe that there were problems finding a publisher; the Transformationalists are pretty clearly based on the Scientologists. They were even founded by a science fiction writer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed 24 Jul 85 11:17:25-CDT From: David Throop Subject: Bk Rev: Cards of Grief - Jane Yolen This is a fairly good book - thoughtful, richly colored. Its premise is of an alien near-human culture - the Grievers. They live in a placid world, only one culture, no war or conflict or (to mention) violent crime. And the culture is grief centered: its art, music, lines of royal succession, manners, are all tied back to grief. It seems similar to ancestor worship, but grieving for the death of those lost. The plot evolves that a ship of Earth anthropologist have come to study the culture, and one falls in love with the Queen's Own Griever, a beauty named the Gray Wanderer. The conflict, such as there is, in the book proceeds from this love and from the clash of the old traditions against the new ways that the Terran ship has accidently introduced to the culture. The best part of the book is her painting of a culture that is near enough to our own to be comprehensible, but alien enough to be baffling. And she explores grief itself, asking and answering "What is grief, why is it so sweet in its way?" But the characters themselves stay enigmatic. Since the format for the book is the transcripts of interviews with the central characters, there is no good action, and only a little bit of rich description at the end. The world Jane Yolen sketches is an intriguing one, yet I was left hungry for more at the end of the book. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 24 Jul 1985 05:04:21-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: A way to generate fantasy? I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were derived from actual games. What I mean by this is that the characters (players) keep 'journals' which are then compiled into (semi?)coherent form and published as a novel/short story. I have often thought that some of the 'adventures' I have had would make pretty good reading (but alas, I am no writer). ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 85 17:20 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night at a revival theater. I won't go into what I thought of the movie, since I'm sure that was thoroughly handled on the net before I got on. (By the way, if this question has already been hashed over, somebody tell me what was said and I'll be quiet.) I left the theater with this one big, sort-of psychological question: assuming everything happened just the way the movie said it did, how did people on Earth react? It struck me that that fancy new sun and all those weird messages coming over TV screens all over the planet didn't really change the political situation one iota. So did we nuke each other or not? I think it's fairly clear that we were meant to leave the film thinking that mankind had suddenly grown up and would now live happily ever after. I, for one, would LIKE to believe that people, even big government leaders, don't **REALLY** want to blow each other up and would therefore jump at any good, face-saving excuse for not doing so. But I'm not sure I have quite enough faith in humanity to believe that. On my more pessimistic days, I would firmly expect somebody to say "Let's nuke them commies [or 'imperialist pigdogs,' if you prefer] and make the galaxy safe for democracy!!!" So what do you think? Chris Miller Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Subject: My first entry From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1985 09:27 EDT Even seeing Back to the Future after reading your note about the movies obscure reference to Sherman and Mr. Peabody, I was unable to catch the reference to Sherman. I never heard anyone on the Peabody farm call Sherman. Was the reference on the Credits? ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@topaz.arpa (Duane Morse) Subject: Star Trek & Grace Lee Whitney Date: 22 Jul 85 14:15:07 GMT Most of you Star Trek fans are probably aware that Yeoman Janice Rand (Grace Lee Whitney) appeared in Star Trek I, promoted to Transporter Technician. I saw Star Trek III for the second time last night, and I caught something that I missed the first time around. Ms. Whitney was in Star Trek III: she was the barmaid who talked to McCoy! Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 275-0302 ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" Date: 23 Jul 85 03:41:54 GMT > From: Peter Reiher > Steve Rabin writes: >>The plot is not intended to be believable, or to stand on its own, >>and to judge it on these grounds is to miss the point. Judge it >>for its dramatic and emotional effect, and for the new ideas and >>questions with which you leave the theatre. > I think that the plot was meant to be believable on the same level > as the Trojan Horse or Beowulf. Judging it as anything but a myth > seems to me to miss the point. Max is an archetypical hero, > performing an archetypical task. (Miller invariably mentions, in > his interviews on this film, that a group of aborigines, on > hearing the part of the story about the children waiting to be > taken off into the sky, excitedly said that they had a legend just > like that.) Miller was trying, as his major task, to produce a > universal myth. I think he failed. I agree with Steve- nobody should expect this to be as coherent and semi-logical as it's predecessors. Peter is right too, Miller sure goofed this one up compared to Mad Max & The Road Warrior. But, I don't think this is anywhere near the level to be judged next to the Trojan Horse or Beowulf. For their respective time periods these were excellent "works". You really can't complain about feasability though, after all it is sf, but on the other hand, sf people are sometimes very demanding for sound reasoning. I just cannot buy the monkey though...! Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!gdh@topaz.arpa (Gareth Husk) Subject: Re: Music in SF Date: 23 Jul 85 11:32:50 GMT gdh@dcl-cs.UUCP (Gareth Husk) writes: >Both are by Richard Cowper and are published by Pan in the UK. I >think 'Piper...' is in a book called 'The Guardians' I'd appreciate >help in finding a copy of this as I really enjoyed the story. Okay I made a mistake and hopefully I can correct it before the net fills to overflowing. 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' is in a book called 'The Custodians' ( I mean it's virtually the same thing ). Gareth. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gdh DARPA: gdh%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: gdh@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4146 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ Date: 24-Jul-1985 0855 From: butenhof%orac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Those who can't do, emulate) Subject: Re: sf music > The background music of most of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The > Galaxy radio programs is that from the Oxygene album. Actually, it's "Journey of the Sorceror" From the Eagles' One of These Nights album. By the way, another heavily sf group I haven't heard mentioned is the group Klaatu ... an obscure Canadian band which rocketed to sudden and brief fame in the late seventies, after their first album, Klaatu, had sat on shelves gathering dust for a year, when someone started a rumor that they were the Beatles, secretly reunioned ... and which rocketed back to obscurity when the rumor was discredited. Actually, it was a really good album. Their second, Hope, was also reasonably good. The third (and as far as I know, the last) didn't quite make it, although it did have a video for a while ... One of their songs (Calling Occupants of Interstellar Craft, from the Klaatu album) was later visciously mangled by Helen Reddy. I think someone else re-did it, too. Most of the stuff on the first two albums which wasn't distinctly sf was distinctly fantasy; with a few mundane items thrown in. /dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed 24 Jul 85 09:12:00-EDT From: Gern Subject: MUSIC & SF It is a confirm that several segments of background music used for The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy BBC, Radiophonics Workshop as beamed about the US by National Public Radio was from the Jean Micheal Jarre Oxygene album. Unfortunately, I do not recall exactly where in the 13 episodes it was used. I do recall that it was played while Peter Jones (as 'The Book') did a narration. I have about 5 out of the 13 shows on tape and I will pin-point at least one segment, I'm sure. More Later, Gern ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 85 10:23 EDT From: System Owner Subject: music in sf Didn't Crosby, Still, and Nash ( or C,S,N, and Young) do one called Wooden Ships, about the soldier/survivors of a future war? Also hasn't Neil Young done at least one solo on the same subject? Sorry I can't be more specific, but maybe that will jog someone's memory. My favorite science fiction album is a two-disc version of H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds (titled War of the Worlds) with Richard Burton doing narration. Justin Hayward and David Essex are among the artists. There is a riveting piece titled Thunderchild and another called The Spirit of Man. The Martian's theme is appropriatly menacing. While I don't want to spoil the story I will say that playing the album is a Halloween tradition and is the focus of our "Find A Three-Day Weekend for August" movement. Jessie(ops@ncsc) ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 24 Jul 85 13:21:14 EDT (Wed) From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA >From: ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa (Daniel R. Levy) >There's the song "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" from a >few years back... anyone remember the artist? (It wasn't popular >for very long.) The pop version of the song was done by the Carpenters, however the original was done by a group called Klaatu. They've done about 4 albums, mostly filled with combinations of SF, fantasy, and off the wall themes. Their first album (the one with Calling Occupants on it) was heavily SF, but some of the lyrics would be objectionable to the very pure of heart. If anyone wants more info on them, send me private mail. -Nancy ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!datanguay@topaz.arpa (David Tanguay) Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness Date: 22 Jul 85 20:17:31 GMT > Interesting theory about cuteness: we did it ourselves. > > This has nothing to do with the discussion of Ewoks being cute, > but it's an interesting hypothesis. Baby animals are "cute" > primarily because humans find them cute. Over millions of years > of evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait, > because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all > was reluctant to kill cute animals. Of course there are good > physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies, > but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well. > > End of pointless diversion: > Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo Not quite the end: maybe the reverse is true? We see baby animals as cute because they don't kill us? David Tanguay, ditto ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 85 17:20 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) While waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of us were discussing the interface between technology/science and magic. The only novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? (I have forgotten again, even though it was a fantastic book. Any help?) Was there ever a sequel to that? Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein. Zelazny's AMBER novels are close at some points, but not quite what I'm thinking of. (Probably because it, like most everything else I've ever read that comes close, deals with the introduction of an element of one world into another (i.e. guns in Amber) while I'm thinking more of a situation where the two normally coexist.) Chris Miller Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Christopher Lloyd Date: 24 Jul 85 09:38:06 EDT (Wed) From: Dan Grim Christopher Lloyd also played one of Michael Keaton's coworkers in Mr. Mom. He was so normal I didn't even notice him until the second time I saw the movie. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Jul 85 1258-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #287 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 26 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 287 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony, Music - SF and Music (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aliens & cuteness (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 23 Jul 85 14:19:24-PDT From: DEKEMA%hplabs.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa Subject: On a Pale Horse This was my first (!) Piers Anthony book, and it was terrific! Lots of novel (to me) ideas and well-written to boot. Glad I didn't read the author's note and ruin the nice effect. Jeannie Hobbs (via Jan Dekema at HP Labs, Palo Alto) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 1985 12:39:29 PDT Subject: music in sf From: Sheila Coyazo Re music in sf stories and novels: Has anybody mentioned The Ship Who Sang? The author was a woman, but I can't remember who. Also, here's yet another I-remember-the-bones-of-a-story-but-not- the-title-or- author posting: I read a short story a few years ago about a guy who kept composing music that was being written at the time by somebody (or several somebodies) else. He was accused of plagiarism, and that's how he started to figure out what was happening. As I recall, in the end of the story he was happily composing the works of past masters (Mozart?). I'm not sure this qualifies as SF, although I seem to remember that it was included in an SF anthology of some sort. It might even have been in an sf magazine. Anybody know of this one? Please mail to me. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 1985 16:08:24-EDT From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: SF in music.... > From: ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa (Daniel R. Levy) > > There's the song "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" from > a few years back... anyone remember the artist? Sure do, and I've been wondering how long it would take for someone to mention this song. The 'popular' version was done by The Carpenters and, to my taste, was pretty awful, bordering on elevator music. The much better original version was on the first album of a group called Klaatu (obviously not afraid to show their SF leanings, are they?). Virtually this entire album, titled simply "Klaatu," as well as their second, titled "Hope," is SF-influenced, or outright SF. My personal favorite is a song called "Little Neutrino," from the first album, which relates the thoughts of a neutrino as it passes through the listener. Another nice one, from the second album, relates the plight of an interstellar lighthouse keeper who's the last of his race. Beyond the unusual lyrics, the guys have no lack of musical talent. I recommend them if you can find them (their first album appeared around '75 or '76). Another excellent album that I believe no one has mentioned yet has the awkward title of "Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of 'The War of the Worlds.'" This is a double-album set which re-tells, through music, song, and narration, Wells' classic story. I remember thinking, when I first saw this album, "Oh, no! What a great chance for someone to produce some really tacky music." But I was pleasantly surprised; it's really quite well done. Richard Burton (the actor) plays the protagonist (from whom we hear most of the story); other voices heard on the album (both singing and speaking) include: Justin Hayward, Phil Lynnot, and David Essex. (BTW, Jeff Wayne is the producer.) I highly recommend this one to anyone who enjoys both SF and music, but I'm afraid it's not easy to find; it appeared around '78 and I rarely see it anywhere. Don't expect to find it anywhere but used or collector's record shops. (Actually, I'm curious as to how many people on this list may have heard this album. If you've heard it, send me mail.) Still more SF-related music can be found on several of the albums of Uriah Heep, most notably "Demons & Wizards" and "The Magician's Birthday." From the song "Circle of Hands" on the former: "Circle of hands Cold spirits plan Searching our land For an enemy Came across Love's sweet cost And in the face of beauty Evil was lost" And from the title song on the latter: "Let's all go to The Magician's birthday It's in the forest but Not so far away Much to do and so Much to say While we listen to the Orchid orchestra play" (Sorry if the quotations are a little off; they're from memory.) I believe these two albums appeared in the '70 to '73 period, but they're probably easier to find than the others I've mentioned. Gee, I hope I'm not the only one to appreciate these gems. Regards, Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 85 18:34:52 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #273 Rush 2112 is based on Anthem, by Ayn Rand... it says so on the album cover. They change what the narrator finds, from (an old battery?) to a guitar, and I dont remember any mention of an Elder Race in the story, but I'm sure that is the basis. Yes, the story of the blind engineer hobo minstrel is Green Hills of Earth by Robert Heinlein. This song and lots of others are attributed to Rhysling, the name of the minstrel, in many of his short stories. Anne McCaffrey wrote Crystal Singer. It certainly did strike a chord... whole mountain ranges of them! (sorry, I dont have your self control...) Windhaven was written by George R.R. Martin and Lisa Tuttle. The only filk song I have ever been able to remember is one I heard at a Star Trek Convention in 1976 at the Commodore Hotel in NYC... it is set to the tune of Hava Nagila, and is about the episode with the giant space-going sea walrus.. ur, uh, I mean the giant space-going amoeba. (one of the poorer episodes...) I get very strange looks when I sing it... have fun Keep on Trekkin! /amqueue ------------------------------ Date: Wed 24 Jul 85 17:14:41-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Music (Genesis/Carpenters/Rush/Hitchikers) Ok, well now that this discussion is well underway, I think I'll throw in a bit more in the way of answering some points and bringing up a few new ones. Genesis Its often difficult to decide when music is science fact and not science fiction. For instance Genesis: :"The Return Of The Giant Hogweed" has been mentioned as a pisstake of the Triffids. Well pisstake it may be but fiction it most certainly isn't. The Giant Hogweed plant is a serious menace in many parts of the UK and can kill or at least badly disfigure. All Gabriel did was to beef up botanical *fact*. Certainly though a lot of Genesis music (particularly that of Gabriel, Banks and Rutherford) was heavily SF influenced - how about "Get 'em out by Friday" This is an announcement from Genetic Control It is my sad duty to inform you Of a four foot restriction on humanoid height ........... We can fit twice as many in the same building site or the Mellotron (?) at the start of "Watcher of the Skies" which is designed to sound like the sound of a giant spaceship landing on earth to find .... nothing. I could talk about Genesis all day but I'd better move on. Daniel R Levy asked who recorded "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft". Well it was the Carpenters and there's an interesting story to go along with it. Back in the days when everyone was Flying Saucer mad, one of the British UFO societies wrote a little 'prayer' which was to be recited by all their members all over the world at exactly the same time in the hope that some alien race would pick up the united call by telepathy and come and visit us. This was around the mid '50s and as far as I can see did not work ! What connection does this have with the Carpenters ? Answer "Calling Occupants.." is an almost word perfect recital of this set to music. 2112 There have been separate mentions of SF songs and SF stories which are based around music and I'm surprised that although Rush: "2112" has been mentioned in the first category, nobody has put it in the second as well. I'll stick my neck out then. The words are clearly SF but also the story revolves around - What can this strange device be ? .... Its got wires that vibrate and give music ... Its just a toy that helped destroy the elder race of man Forget about your silly whims It doesn't fit the Plan The find is of course a guitar and he realises that despite what the Priests tell him that it is a symbol of the creativity and beauty then didn't destroy the elder race but instead drove it off out into the galaxy. Expanding, building and creating as they go, leaving the stunted remains of civilisation on earth. The Hitchhiker's Guide Not all of the backing music used was by the BBC radiophonic workshop. I identified such things as the Bee Gee's "Night Fever" played backwards when Zaphod and Rooster go to a disco - "Hey Rooster I've just had this really hoopy idea". Music from Sparks "Number One Song in Heaven" also appears. Trying to identify the tracks after the radiophonic work shop have got at it can be quite fun ! Note also how many times Dire Straits get mentioned in "So Long and Thanks.." So there's a bit more coal for the fire. Meanwhile I'll just go back to listening to some more tapes..... Alan Greig Computer Centre Dundee College of Technology Dundee Scotland Janet: Alan%DCT@DDXA Arpa: Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX Date: Wed, 24 Jul 85 19:44:14 PDT Subject: Science Fiction Folkmusic [Filking] A comment was made of a style/form of music called 'Filking'... I can recommend the folks at Off Centar [Which was the address given] Off-Centar Publications PO Box 424, El Cerrito, CA 94530 [1-415-528-3172] These folks are also the new publishers of Kantle (the official publication of The Filk Foundation). The Foundation has had a slow start but it is attempting to catalog the products of fandoms most unique art-form, SF Folk Singing. Members also recieve supporting memberships to club sponsored conventions...The next one is BayFilk 3 on March 7-9, 1986 in San Jose Contact the folks at Off-Centar for more info... Also, another group is the LA Filkers Anonymous, which meet each month to discuss their problems and keep the neighbors awake (but entertained) through the night... They can be reached at LAFA, c/o Paul Willett, 16440 Tryon Street Westminster, CA 92683 [1-714-842-8426] Paul also put out a good Filk NewsZine entitled Philphenomenon [PFNEN] Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc or crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 23 Jul 85 17:17:20 GMT throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >Living space might be a reason, [for alien invasion] but would >require an unreasonably advanced transport technology to make it >feasible and at the same time have the technology level low enough >to preclude easier solutions to population pressure (such as >Ringworlds). (The exception is when cost is no object, eg, the >aliens need to escape from a supernova or the like.) First of all, I doubt that Ringworlds are an easier solution to population pressure. It takes a lot of energy for interstellar travel, but it takes a lot more to build a ringworld. Besides, there is an underlying fallacy here: the idea that there is such a thing as enough living space. Exponential growth will use up whatever space is available, in relatively short order. So we have a ringworld. In a thousand years we will want another (or ten thousand, or a million). In thirty to a hundred years, we will want a third. In fifteen to forty, we want a fourth. After that, we start wanting them frequently. By the way, interstellar travel (at sub-light speeds) is not as bad as most of us have been led to believe (generation ships and such). Forseeable technology will get us about one-tenth the speed of light. This will get us to the nearest star in about forty years. A long time, but many of those who set out will get there. A somewhat more problematical technology, the anti-matter drive, will get us there at one g if we are willing to expend reaction mass comparable to the delivered mass. That gets us there in about seven years (a bit less for the travelers.) Right now it looks like the biggest problem with this drive is producing anti-matter economically (it can already be produced, using particle accelerators, it's just fantastically expensive). There are other possibilities, such as lasers, not to mention ideas that haven't been thought of yet. In short, our children *can* go to the stars; and even come back. ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness Date: 23 Jul 85 13:43:02 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >because humans find them cute. Over millions of years of >evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait, >because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all >was reluctant to kill cute animals. Of course there are good >physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies, >but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well. The treasuring of cute little animals is hardly a cultural universal. For example: a rather decadent Chinese banquet delicacy was live baby mice dipped in honey and rolled in sesame seeds. Yum. (No, I'm not cross-posting this to net.cooks :-) Another for example: the fellows up in the Great White North who make their living clubbing baby seals probably don't shed any tears over the 'cute' baby seals with their 'cute' big eyes. I suspect the 'cute' reaction is primarily a fairly recent Anglo-American cultural tradition, since I've never seen it mentioned in any other cultural contexts. Anyone else out there have any ideas about this? I suggest anyone interested in this topic check out the title essay in a book called 'The Great Cat Massacre,' published (I think) last year. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: utastro!ethan@topaz.arpa (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness Date: 24 Jul 85 19:50:52 GMT >> jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >>because humans find them cute. Over millions of years of >>evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait, >>because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all >>was reluctant to kill cute animals. Of course there are good >>physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies, >>but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well. > > The treasuring of cute little animals is hardly a cultural > universal. [Various examples designed to breakup dinner table > conversations followed] ... I suspect the 'cute' reaction is > primarily a fairly recent Anglo-American cultural tradition, since > I've never seen it mentioned in any other cultural contexts. > Anyone else out there have any ideas about this? > -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly S.J. Gould had an essay on cartoon characters which is relevant and entertaining. It's in one of his collections of essays.(Perhaps "The Panda's Thumb"?). His point, which strikes me as sensible, is that we are programmed to find *human* babies cute. In the appropriate cultural context this can lead to people thinking most mammalian young are "cute". (Unless there's money to be made by ripping their lungs out. :-)) Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Jul 85 0930-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #288 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 31 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 288 Today's Topics: Books - Goulart & D&D in Books, Films - Lovecraft Movies & SF Westerns (3 msgs) & Sexism (2 msgs), Music - SF and Music (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cheviot!ncx@topaz.arpa (Lindsay F. Marshall) Subject: Ron Goulart Date: 24 Jul 85 10:33:23 GMT Can anyone send me (by mail please) a COMPLETE list of books by Ron Goulart, preferably with ISBN's etc. It is almost impossible to get hold of his books off the shelf in the UK and nobody seems to have a list of titles that are available (Don't tell me about Books in Print, Library of Congress Catalogue [That sounds most indecent :-) ] and other such sources - I've looked and they dont help that much, if at all). Lindsay F. Marshall Computing Lab., U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK ARPA : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot UUCP : !ukc!cheviot!lindsay ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster) Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? Date: 24 Jul 85 22:28:41 GMT >From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA >I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if >anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were >derived from actual games. There is a continuing series of books called "Dragonlance" which are put out by TSR (the people who get the royalties for AD&D), along with a companion set of scenarios to be played out. These books (I've read the first) are not badly written, and aren't really a bad read, but I don't think they'd hold much interest for non-D&Ders. On the other hand, those who play D&D (or AD&D) will probably find that the actions of the characters, as well as the settings, monsters, situations, etc., are all recognizable as having come from the AD&D universe, and will be able to more fully enjoy the novels. One word of caution: these seem to be set up so much along the lines of AD&D sessions, that things don't really end after each novel. (Sure, we've saved the elves from total destruction and freed the townsmen from the clutches of the evil dragon, but the battle isn't over yet, and the players, er, characters, will be back again next weekend to continue the never-ending battles...) joel "vo" plutchak {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 23 Jul 85 18:45:05 EDT From: bader (miles bader) @ cmu-psy-a Subject: Lovecraft I thank all who responded to my Lovecraftian movie request. After perusing an HPL book or two, I have something to add. 1. The story @i(Pickman's Model) was made into a Night Gallery (color and all) of a name unknown to me. Both the original and the NG concern an artist who incorporated grisly creatures doing ghastly things into his paintings. The book had a male who was interested in his work accompany the artist to his studio in a run-down part of town. The artist scuffles with something out of the sight of his guest, forces it back into the maze of tunnels that opens into the cellar, and lives on. In the process, the author gets scared, and runs off clutching what ends up being a photograph of a real creature, which here were doggish with sort of cloven hooves, upright, and somewhat humanish. They were supposed to be involved with the old 'changeling' legends, where these creatures would exchange one of their young for a human baby, and it would grow up to look human. The TV adaptation differs in that the interested party was an attractive female who followed the artist to the studio in the run-down part of town secretly because she was interested in both his paintings and him. He scuffles with an unseen creature, but when the door opens it is the creature who chases the blond around the room. The creature here was distinctly reptillian, green, and not very convincing. 2. There was a movie, called The Devil of Hobbs End, or something like that, I think. In this flick, excavation for a subway uncovers this strange blue ancient spaceship, which contains a few dead grasshopper aliens, .... The 'thing discovered while digging for a subway' theme is brought out in length in HPL's "Pickman's Model" and a few others, and one of his stories mentions such stuff as occuring at "Cobb End," while I think this movie concerned "Hobb's End" or some such. Al Datri Carnegie-Mellon University arpa: aad%cmu-vice-postoffice@pt.cs.cmu.edu arpa: (my friend with arpa outputability) bader%cmu-psy-a usenet:ad0r%cmu-cc-tb%cmu-cs-g% { usenet path, ending with !pitt } mailnet:ad0r%cmu-cc-tb%carnegie.mailnet { @mit-?} ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 85 10:04 EDT From: System Owner Subject: Science Fiction westerns To Donald Rose's P.S. about a Sci Fi Western...Wasn't there a movie in the not to distant past about a guy on a motorcycle who somehow got sent back to the Wild West? (That's all I remember about it.) Jessie (ops@ncsc) ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@topaz.arpa (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: This planet ain't big enough, etc... (SF Westerns) Date: 23 Jul 85 16:14:17 GMT >> >>(P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?) > Well, _Battle Beyond the Stars_ was western SF (a remake of _The > Magnificent Seven_, itself a remake of _The Seven Samurai_). So > was _Borderland_ (a remake of _High Noon_). (^_Outland_, of course) Another SF western is _Moon_Zero_Two_, complete with claim jumpers and showdowns at high Earth (with a lady sheriff, in fact). Haven't seen it for years, but liked it when I was younger. Starred James Olson (Andromeda Strain, The Empire Strikes Back) Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: your film fantasies Date: 23 Jul 85 17:05:52 GMT > From: Jim Hester > Depends on what you define as a Sci Fi Western, but Westworld > (+sequels) and Star Wars immediately come to mind, for different > reasons. Similarly, given a rather wiggly definition of Western, Outland is a remake of High Noon. David Albrecht General Electric ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 85 10:04 EDT From: System Owner Subject: Sexism in movies In reply to Peter Reiher's aside on sexism in Spielberg's movies...on my daughter's behalf I thank you. The children of today are the women and men of tomorrow. What influences them now in film, books and music will influence the world in 30 years. This has been the U.N. International Decade of the Woman, and though adult women now have as role models the many women prominent in the modern world, I am dismayed to find that role models for girls have regressed to self-indulgent, "material" personalities like Madonna, Brooke Shields, and Cindi Lauper. When my daughter was 8 she wanted to be just like Princess Leia. Now that she is 13, there are no strong, brave and compassionate characters for her to want to emulate. This lack of strong, non-sterotypical female characters is not just Spielberg's disease. Everything that I have said about sexism may also be applied to racism and nationalism. It may be a responsiblity of science fiction, which has so often predicted the path society has taken, to show a future in which equality is a given facet of life. The best female character in a science fiction movie I have ever seen was the doctor in the High Noon rip-off (there's one, Donald!) starring Sean Connery, Outland, about a mining colony on the moon (or asteroid or whatever it was) of some big planet (I guess it was Jupiter, but please don't give me a thousand corrections if it is not; where is beside the point compared to what). (I apologize for the above digression.) Other good female characters were Sigourney Weaver in Alien and the Russian captain in 2010. I can only think of one black in a semi-lead role and that was in Ice Pirates. Minority leads who are leads for reasons other than their sex and the opportunity for the white male lead to show off are rare and devoutly to be desired. Many lead roles in science fiction movies could be played by anyone regardless race or sex. (Let us use our brains and realize that this is a generalization and not flame on endlessly listing the exceptions. Thank you.)The ideal is to cast a role with the best player (a non-sexist word). Jessie (ops@ncsc) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jul 1985 13:25:35-EDT From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Spielberg a sexist?.... Peter Reiher (ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa) writes: > Anyone else out there think that Steven Spielberg is a sexist? > Only in "Poltergeist" did Spielberg give us important female > characters. The female parts in "Raiders" and "Close Encounters" > weren't too bad, but they were definitely supporting roles. Y'know, Peter, you're right. And even in "Poltergeist," the major female roles were quite traditional -- one, a housewife & mother, the other, basically a witch. However, there was one other female role, not so traditional -- one of the psychic researchers was a woman (in fact, she seemed to be the leader of the group). But, as I recall, the sexuality of her role was hardly one of its dominant features. Look at the female roles in "Close Encounters" -- both mothers. True, one is apparently single, but yet it is she for whom the 'mothering' aspect is more strongly emphasized; throughout the film she is driven by her maternal impulses. But I have to wonder: is Spielberg being consciously sexist here, or is what we are interpreting as sexism merely a side effect of his habit of making very traditional movies? After all, isn't he trying to bring to the screens of the eighties the sorts of adventure stories he loved to see and read when he was a child? (Which was -- fifties? forties?) And a LOT of fiction and film produced back then, especially juvenile & light adventure stuff, and Disney, was filled with very cultural-norm-affirming backgrounds, right? So if Spielberg is trying to emulate these traditional pictures, then even Karen Allen's role in "Raiders" fits right into the pattern. The spunky, tomboyish, yet beautiful-when-she-finally- puts-a-dress-on girl has a long history in pulp fiction. What do you think? Regards, Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 23 Jul 85 18:45:05 EDT From: bader (miles bader) @ cmu-psy-a Subject: sf in music. Children of the Sun was done by Billy Thorpe. M. Moorcock did indeed work with Hawkwind, and he released a little-known solo album in the late 70's. There is much reference in electronic and strange music concerning SG. I picked up an album by Ramases called "Space Wars" which has this groovy zillion-gatefold cover of a rocket lifting off from a church. Inspection of the inside of the cover confirms the SF content. Scorpions did a song called "Robot Man" on @i(In Trance), as well as a number of other songs on their early albums with SF/F themes. Who can hear Also Sprach Zarathustra (sp?) without thinking of 2001? There was a 70's band called Magma who based themselves on a sort of SF background, inventing their own language (reflective of German and Lovecraft -- well, sort of) and stories about being invaded by people/creatures from somewhere called ORK. The first mention of Ork I have seen is on their 1974 Khontarkask (something like that) album. That was pre-mork and mindy, wasn't it?.... Metallica did a an instrumental song called "Kthulu" [sic] on @i(Ride the Lightning.) Anvil did a song (not especially memorable) called "Mothra" Fleetwood Mac (later Judas Preist) -- The Green Manalishi with the 2 Pronged Crown. Some of Black Sabbath's work could be seen as having SF influences, like the @i(Technical Ecstasy) album. Earth Wind and Fire did something about a guy from Jupiter. BOC -- lots of stuff, like Cultosaurus Erectus. Uli Jon Roth - Electric Sun -- three albums of SF/F from ex-Scorpions guitarist. Flash Fearless and the Zorg Women, parts 5&6 -- really weird album put out in the mid-late seventies, with an included comic book formed around the lyrics on the album. Made fun of Flash Gordon and others, soundtrack has songs not found elsewhere by subsets of {Alice Cooper, John Entwhistle, Keith Moon, Kenny Jones, ...} The movie Heavy Metal, which featured music that by and large wasn't. Half of anything Jimi Hendrix did. The band UFO. some Todd Rundgren / Utopia stuff as for SF based on music, what about "The Music of Erich Zann," from, of course, H.P. Lovecraft. I may have posted some parts of the above before; if so, join me in cursing my mailer. Al Datri Carnegie-Mellon University arpa: aad%cmu-vice-postoffice@pt.cs.cmu.edu arpa: (my friend with arpa outputability) bader%cmu-psy-a usenet:ad0r%cmu-cc-tb%cmu-cs-g% { usenet path, ending with !pitt } mailnet:ad0r%cmu-cc-tb%carnegie.mailnet { @mit-?} ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: music in sf Date: 23 Jul 85 13:27:37 GMT >And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging >conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of >written SF in which music played a dominant theme? "Songmaster" by Orson Scott Card. David Albrecht General Electric ------------------------------ Date: Thu 25 Jul 85 09:49:01-EDT From: Gern Subject: Oxygene in THGTTG Found I scanned thru the only 4 of 13 episodes I still have on tape last night of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy BBC radio program. Jean Michael Jarre's Oxygene album IS used as background music. The only occurence of it I could find out of the 4 episodes I have (I am sure it is used in other episodes) is at the very beginning of episode #6, the one where they are on the Admiral's Flagship as he turns into The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast Of Traal. It is used as Peter Jones (as The Book) is stating: The History of every major galactic civilization has passed through three distinct and recognisable phases: those of survival, inquiry, and sophistication, otherwise known as the how, why and where phases... Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 23 Jul 85 21:40:55 GMT > From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA > While waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of > us were discussing the interface between technology/science and > magic. Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar > vein. Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept Series. In it the same matter used as magic "mana" is also an extremely valuable source of energy. However, I do not recommend the series because although I have read this series and most of his Xanth stuff, he's very limited in his description of the capacity of magic. He limits it too much; for instance: in xanth everyone has one (1) magical ability. In the Apprentice Adept books, an adept could work magic through one means- in Style's case it was through music. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Jul 85 0952-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #289 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 31 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 289 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Pluterday, Films - The Black Cauldron & SF Westerns & The Heavenly Kid, Music - Music and SF (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aliens (3 msgs) & Christopher Lloyd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1985 09:56 EDT From: SR.KAUFMAN@MIT-SPEECH Subject: Ford Prefect Poking around in a bookstore last night, I saw that Harmony books has put out an "Omnibus Edition" of the first three Hitchhiker's books, with "A New Introduction by Douglas Adams". The introduction describes and in part explains how the HHG saga started, and where all the story lines branch off from each other. There is also a comment about Ford's name: Adams explains that Americans did not get the joke, because the Ford Prefect was only sold in England, but that Ford had "simply mistaken the dominant life form". Share & Enjoy, Qux Qux@MIT-Goldilocks.Arpa Kaufman@YaleCS.Bitnet ..!decvax!yale!kaufman ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Pluterday Date: 25 Jul 85 19:55:58 GMT Van Herck, Paul WHERE WERE YOU LAST PLUTERDAY? But there may have been some Brunner story called "Pluterday" also. Jayembee, where are you? Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrse@topaz.arpa (Steve Ehrhardt) Subject: Re: "The Black Cauldron" Date: 24 Jul 85 20:36:55 GMT Having seen TBC at an early preview showing in June, I found my opinions of, and complaints about, the film pretty much summed up by Peter Reiher's recent review in this newsgroup. I would also like to join him in urging others to see this film for themselves. TBC suffers mostly by comparison to what it should/could have been. Taken by itself, it is a good, entertaining film. It simply isn't the masterpiece that Disney had led us to believe it would be. For myself, I found that "TBC's" principal drawback was its over-condensed storyline. The animation, while uneven, was generally at least good, and in places (particularly that of the 'bad guys' and their environs) excellent. Often, however, I kept feeling that things were not being adequately explained, even by implication. *** Some slight spoilers follow *** The most glaring example of this is the group of fairies that the hero and his party encounter at one point. They appear to have been dropped into the story gratuitously, perhaps to increase the 'cuteness factor', with no explanation of who or what they are, or why they are hiding from the outside world. Other points, such as why the Horned King is considered such a menace, the origins of a certain magic sword, etc. remain largely unexplained. A small amount of more background information would go a long way towards making the film more enjoyable. "TBC" does move well, perhaps in part because of the condensation just described. I found that I didn't get tempted to look at my watch once during the showing, which to me is always a good sign. Nevertheless, I still feel that this is one film that would benefit from being lengthened to a full two hours. Despite the film's weak points, I found that I enjoyed it a great deal, and intend to see it again when it opens locally. I particularly enjoyed the "cleavage joke" referred to in a previous review, that being one of the funniest animated sequences I've seen in a long time. While it is perhaps not the best effort produced by Disney, I would definitely rate it as being worth seeing. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Jul 85 09:43:37 PDT (Thursday) From: Josh Susser Subject: Re: your film fantasies / Sci Fi Western From: Don Rose >(P.S. Has there ever been a Sci Fi Western?) You bet! The silliest Science Fiction movie I have ever seen was "Battle Beyond the Stars" staring what's his name who played John-Boy on "The Waltons". BBtS was much like a space opera version of "The Magnificent Seven": young boy gathers band of interplanetary misfits to save boy's planet from evil space baron. All in all, a pretty worthless film, although I did like the unibeing, Nestor. Josh ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE HEAVENLY KID Date: 24 Jul 85 03:28:09 GMT THE HEAVENLY KID A film review by Mark R. Leeper I never planned to see THE HEAVENLY KID. What little I knew about the film made it sound a little hum-drum and familiar. A teenager gets a guardian angel to help him through life's trying moments. The idea has been done to death (you'll pardon the expression) on made-for-TV copies of films like HERE COMES MR. JORDAN, its remake HEAVEN CAN WAIT, TOPPER, episodes of THE TWILIGHT ZONE, even a Tom and Jerry cartoon. But I was in for one shock. Like Holiday Inns says in its ad: "The only surprise is that there are no surprises." Even HEAVEN CAN WAIT had moments when it was unpredictable. From beginning to end there is not an original scene or an original piece of dialogue in THE HEAVENLY KID. This film could have been written by high school students who pieced it together from made-for-TV films. In a reprise of the chicken race of REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE, Bobby is killed. In scenes stolen from HERE COMES MR. JORDAN, he deals with angelic bureaucrats who arrange for him to return to Earth for a good deed which will allow him to go to Heaven. He is dispatched to help a young teenager find himself. The film sets for itself some hard and fast rules, then goes about breaking them with no regard for logic. The invisible angel gets into fights and nobody notices an invisible force is in the fight. One victim does notice, but never seems to mention it. The angel is allowed to reveal himself only to his charge, but when the script-writer wants him to, he reveals himself to other people. In another scene, he sits in a tight backseat with two women, the actresses desperately trying to act as if they can't tell there's a third person in the seat. THE HEAVENLY KID (it's not clear if the title refers to the angel or the boy--neither fits) is just a string of familiar scenes and a real yawner. Of minor note is that the stunt co-ordinator was Ricou Browning. Browning was the man inside the monster suit in CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON. The only other familiar name (to me) was Richard Mulligan as the angelic bureaucrat in beatnik poncho on a motorcycle he can't ride--funny, huh? Rate this film an admittedly high -2 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 85 16:59 PST From: Gary Palmer Subject: Music and SF. The song "Calling occupants of interplanetary craft" was performed and recorded by _Klatuu_. This group was also the subject of a short-lived myth during 1977 that they were actually the Beatles (we remember them, Paul MaCartney's old group (just kidding)). Also on music; the album "Dune" by progressive jazzist David Mathews. One side is all music inspired by Dune, the other side is his rendition of the Star Wars music. And of course Jimi Hendrix has lots of Sci-Fi music. How 'bout the song UFO? -Gary ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Lovecraft + sf in music. Date: 24 Jul 85 16:22:48 GMT bader@CMU-PSY-A writes: >as for SF based on music, what about "The Music of Erich Zann," >from, of course, H.P. Lovecraft. There was an obscure rock band in the late '60s called H. P. Lovecraft. They recorded one album that I'm aware of that has a song called 'At The Mountains Of Madness' on it. Not a particularly thrilling or memorable album. I also seem to recall a song titled something like 'Rocket #9' on NRBQ's first album, and some kind of rocket-related song on 'Kick Out The Jams' by the MC-5. Oh, and I haven't seen a mention of '2000 Light Years From Home' on the Rolling Stones' album 'Their Satanic Majesties Request.' -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens Date: 23 Jul 85 17:51:45 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >Possible answers to the question "Where are the aliens?" (most of >which have appeared in numerous SF stories): > >(f) FTL travel is impossible. Inter-stellar travel requires the > colony ship approach or suspended animation. Everything is > subject to relativistic effects like time dilation. This > makes exploration much more difficult and time-consuming. It > just so happens we haven't been found yet; indeed, many races > may decide that inter-stellar colonization is economically > pointless and may do their best to live at home. See my previous posting; I won't repeat myself here. >I've probably left out a few explanations from the list. >Variations are many; take (c), for example, inter-stellar >peace-keepers who prevent nasties from interfering. These could be >benevolent beings; malevolent beings who wipe out any race that >ventures into space; a doomsday ship that was programmed by someone >to hang around Jupiter and shoot anything that happens by; a >natural or artificial barrier that makes our region of space >difficult to enter; and so on. I would regard nasties as quite different from benevolent protection, not just a variation. OK, now for some others: (h) Intelligent races at some point evolve past the need for physical existence. As a variation, they find parallel worlds (infinitely many of them) and don't need the rest of the universe. (i) Intelligent races are inevitably warlike. At some point they get sufficiently deadly weapons and kill themselves off. However, option (g) seems the most likely to me -- there aren't any other technological races, at least not in our galaxy. The next question is, why not? The following seem to me to be the main possible reasons: (1) Planets which can support life are very rare. Either planetary systems are rare, or the conditions required for life are more special than we think. (2) Life is a very unlikely phenomenon. Almost all worlds which can support life don't have any. (3) Some step in the evolution of intelligent life is very unlikely. Maybe multicellular life is unique to Earth. Maybe sexual reproduction is. (4) Technology is unique to us. Other races don't develop it. This may be because they lack appropriate manipulatory organs, or because there is something unlikely about its development. (5) All of the above. Perhaps each of the above is 10 to 100 times as unlikely as the SETI people estimate, so that the expected number of intelligent races in the galaxy is about one. (6) Perhaps our evolution was amazingly fast, and we aren't so much the only technological species as the first. (7) Collisions with astronomical objects may be quite common, and we are very lucky not to have been hit by anything really large in the last few billion years. ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens Date: 24 Jul 85 20:09:33 GMT > (f) FTL travel is impossible. Inter-stellar travel requires the > colony ship approach or suspended animation. Everything is > subject to relativistic effects like time dilation. This > makes exploration much more difficult and time-consuming. > It just so happens we haven't been found yet; indeed, many > races may decide that inter-stellar colonization is > economically pointless and may do their best to live at > home. Not a valid argument. All it takes is one race... in fact if nothing else stops us we'll have the entire galaxy colonised in a million years, even without FTL. A million years is nothing to the age of the universe. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter ARPA: baylor.peter@RICE.ARPA MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076; DELPHI: PJDASILVA ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 25 Jul 85 04:48:55 GMT franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >Besides, there is an underlying fallacy here: the idea that there >is such a thing as enough living space. Exponential growth will >use up whatever space is available, in relatively short order. So >we have a ringworld. In a thousand years we will want another (or >ten thousand, or a million). In thirty to a hundred years, we will >want a third. In fifteen to forty, we want a fourth. After that, >we start wanting them frequently. This itself is a fallacy, on two counts. As far as humans are concerned, exponential is characteristic of a certain phase of technological and cultural development. Most developed societies today have either slowly growing or stable populations. In terms of other races, well, whose to say? I would venture to guess, however, that a race which had an unalterable tendency towards high growth rates would have a hard time developing adequate technology; too much effort would be going into people starving. >By the way, interstellar travel (at sub-light speeds) is not as bad >as most of us have been led to believe (generation ships and such). >Forseeable technology will get us about one-tenth the speed of >light. This will get us to the nearest star in about forty years. >A long time, but many of those who set out will get there. That's a generation ship. Very few women are fertile after 40 years. >A somewhat more problematical technology, the anti-matter drive, >will get us there at one g if we are willing to expend reaction >mass comparable to the delivered mass. That gets us there in about >seven years (a bit less for the travelers.) Right now it looks >like the biggest problem with this drive is producing anti-matter >economically (it can already be produced, using particle >accelerators, it's just fantastically expensive). There are other >possibilities, such as lasers, not to mention ideas that haven't >been thought of yet. Well, unless you are going to break out of the current laws of physics, it takes the same amount of energy to get there in a certain time no matter how you store the power. You either have to generate it along the way, or produce it all at the beginning and store it somewhere (and storage isn't necessarily a problem). And it's a LOT of energy, all of which you have to get rid of if you expect to stop when you get there. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 25 Jul 1985 08:00:16-PDT From: callaghan%pseudo.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Gaylene Callaghan From: DTN:523-4523) Subject: Chris Lloyd Thanks goes to Paul Kemp. "Best of the West" was indeed the western I had seen Christopher Lloyd in. (Memory block or some such) For a while there I thought maybe I was seeing things when Chris came on the screen with a black hat and a six-gun... Thanks again, Gaylene ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Jul 85 1025-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #290 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 31 Jul 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 290 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Varley & Pluterday, Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs) & 2010 & SF Westerns, Music - SF and Music (6 msgs), Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & Spoilers & Cuteness (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR) Subject: Re: Tech/sci & magic--esp. Anthony's Apprentice Adept Date: 25 Jul 85 18:31:14 GMT > Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept Series. In it the same > matter used as magic "mana" is also an extremely valuable source > of energy. However, I do not recommend the series because > although I have read this series and most of his Xanth stuff, he's > very limited in his description of the capacity of magic. He > limits it too much; for instance: in xanth everyone has one (1) > magical ability. In the Apprentice Adept books, an adept could > work magic through one means- in Style's case it was through > music. > Moshe Eliovson I think that in the Apprentice Adept books, one of the points Anthony goes to great lengths to make is the flexibility and diversity of effects which one can create given 'just one means' of magic work. Thus in the books, though music is Stile's only form of 'shaping power' (the more and better music, the stronger spells he can cast), the effects range from teleportation to transformation, and more (it's been a while since I read the books........) AMBAR {the known universe}!ihnp4!ihlpg!jeand ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: characters in John Varley's stories Date: 31 Jul 85 05:32:28 GMT *sigh* You're not just imaging it (or even imagining it). Varley's women typically are half as old and twice as strong, and the bad guys are *always* male. Well, just about. And telling me that Gaea is female is not weakening my point. Despite that, Varley is one of SF's best word smiths and story tellers, including (in my opinion) the Gaea Trilogy but not MILLENIUM. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Pluterday Date: 31 Jul 85 04:47:30 GMT > From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) > John Brunner wrote it . . . If he did, he did so under a pseudonym. I can't remember the author of "See You Next Pluterday", but it not only wasn't Brunner, it was translated into English for the DAW paperback. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jul 85 22:33:46 EDT From: "John f. Hardesty" Subject: Back to the Future *********SPOILER********* I notice that when talking about `Back to the Future`, the talk is centralized on the fact that Marty I did to universe I and etc. Another thought is that in Nineteen Fifty-five (I think this was the year) someone was playing a song that he called an oldie but a goodie called `Johnny B Goode` in a high school because the guitarist had hurt his hand. The guitarist had a brother named Chuck who listened in to the song , like it and started using the style in the song. This person somehow disappeared. In Nineteen Fifty Five a scientist had the notion to develop an influx unit to enable time travel but he sluffed it off until he met this person ( Marty ) who show him that he did eventually make the device. The young man who showed him this needed help getting back where he came from. The young man told him he had a letter that stated what would happen in nineteen eighty five to the scientist then went back to where he came from but when he went back he went back ten minutes earlier than he left so that he could prevent what would happen to the scientist. He arrived in his own time downtown just in time to see the people who would harm the scientist pass by him. He arrives at the mall just in time to see the man shot and himself leave for the past (1955) so that there would not be two of him anywhere but for a short time. In nineteen eighty five a scientist befriends a high school student and has him come along to see his greatest creation - a time machine. The young man, Marty who went back in time, did change individual parts of the time stream but only his parents were affected . After he returns to the present were the effects that he had intialized in the past realized for him. He did not change one universe or start another but he went back into his own time stream and affected some individual time segments that would take effect only after he returns from coming back. Lets banter this around John Hardesty ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Future" Date: 24 Jul 85 13:39:28 GMT > Here's a topic me and some friends have been bandying about: > What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from > 1955? > Any comments? > > Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe Pervasiveness of computers and hand held calculators, of course. Especially hand held calculators because practically everyone owns one and there wasn't even an inkling of such in 55 except by some SF writers. Getting a square root without reference to a table would have been nirvana in 1955. In general, the revolution in electronics that has happened since 55 due to advancing technology and foreign cheap labor competition. VCRs, SLR cameras, Fancy TVs, incredibly cheap Quartz watches, all manners of boom boxes, mass market stereo, walkmans, remote phones, digital dashboards, cars that talk, coke machines that talk, video games,etc. David Albrecht General Electric ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 24 Jul 85 18:22:04 GMT Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: >I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night I left the >theater with this one big, sort-of psychological question: assuming >everything happened just the way the movie said it did, how did >people on Earth react? This has been discussed before, but I didn't particularly agree with any of the answers given, so I'll put my two cents worth in now. There is an important difference between the short term and long term effects of such an event. As I remember, the U.S. and the Soviet Union were about ready to go to war at that point. I think the events in and around Jupiter would be quite sufficient to prevent that war. (Of course, an outbreak of war was not certain; it never is, until it actually happens.) In the long run, humans are humans, and politics as usual will resume. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: your film fantasies Date: 24 Jul 85 14:48:12 GMT >Well, _Battle Beyond the Stars_ was western SF (a remake of _The >Magnificent Seven_, itself a remake of _The Seven Samurai_). So >was _Borderland_ (a remake of _High Noon_). I cannot swear I know the intent of the original question, but I disagree with both of these statements. Corman said he always wanted to do "SEVEN SAMURAI in space." That doesn't make BATTLE BEYOND THE STARS even a remake of that film, only a film that uses some of the same situations. I would hardly call WEST SIDE STORY a remake of ROMEO AND JULIET or FORBIDDEN PLANET a remake of THE TEMPEST. And certainly the fact that a western also used ideas from SEVEN SAMURAI does not, in itself, make BATTLE suddenly a western in space. There is too much difference between OUTLAND and HIGH NOON to call one a remake. An even if it was, that would only make it a remake of a western in a science fiction setting, not a western itself. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jcjeff@topaz.arpa (Richard Jeffreys) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 25 Jul 85 17:57:27 GMT > There's the song "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" from > a few years back... anyone remember the artist? (It wasn't > popular for very long.) > Daniel R. Levy "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft" was recorded by the Carpenters. The song was taken up by some organization (World Peace?) as their "anthem" and as such the track was "beamed" into outer-space as a goodwill message to any aliens that may be listening. As far as I know, the song is still being "beamed" into outer-space. I only hope any aliens who hear it like Karen Carpenters voice, otherwise we could be in for trouble :-) Richard Jeffreys North American Philips Corporation @ AT&T Bell Laboratories, Naperville, Illinois ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Music in SF Date: 24 Jul 85 16:28:01 GMT Another trilogy that was music related--at least a harp played a large part--was Patricia McKillip's Riddle Master set. I remember Riddle Master of Hed, and Harpist in the Wind. The other title escapes me. Is is Heir of Sea and Fire? I am fond of this series because this was the first real fantasy I ever read and enjoyed. I was always a hard SF fan, from 10 years old, but except for Tolkien (who is really in another league altogether) I had never read fantasy. My current husband gave me this trilogy to read, and I got hooked. What has this author done besides these? Has she had any books out recently and are they as good? Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ From: druxo!knf@topaz.arpa (FricklasK) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 23 Jul 85 21:05:45 GMT Sorry, I was just going on a dim recollection: 'Red Joystick' is definitely NOT about video games, any more than 'Ten Inch Record' is about a girl who likes to listen to the blues... Ken ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 00:12:30 PDT Subject: Pern Music & Jon Anderson At the end of her Hourglass Taped interview, she mentions that she likes Jon Anderson's (From the group YES) poetry/music and was preparing a compilation... Anyone heard more????? ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Music in SF Date: 26 Jul 85 05:21:07 GMT Someone has already mentioned "The Singer Enigma" by Ann Maxwell. She has also written "Name of A Shadow" (a *wonderful* book) which has an unusual musical instrument, the sarsa, as a very important part of the story. In other arts, she has written "A Dead God Dancing" in which one of the characters is a member of a race famous for their dancing abilities. A book which is not so much SF, but by a person who also writes SF is "The Armageddon Rag" by George R. R. Martin, who also wrote the (SF) short story "A Song for Lya" (in the collection of the same name). Muffy ------------------------------ From: fluke!bryanf@topaz.arpa (Bryan Faubion) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 25 Jul 85 21:43:12 GMT The album you want is called KLAATU or KLAATTU. It's a great album. I made a tape of the album from a college roomate's disc and I still listen to it 9 years later. Other songs on the album include: THE NEUTRINO (not the exact title) ANUS FROM URANUS THE MAN WHO WENT TO HELL AND CAME BACK ALIVE (again imprecise) and others. There are some interesting sound effects on some tunes but the album is mostly musical. The Carpenters made a version of "Calling occupants of interplanetary craft" which received more airplay but is an inferior version. If I run across this album again I will definitely buy it. As Joe Bob Briggs says: "check it out" Bryan Faubion John Fluke Mfg. Co. P.O. Box C9090 M/S 243F Everett WA 98206 {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utscrgv}!uw-beaver--. | {decwrl!sun,decvax!microsof,ucbvax!lbl-csam,allegra,ssc-vax}--> !fluke!bryanf ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 25 Jul 85 14:43:36 GMT >while waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of >us were discussing the interface between technology/science and >magic. The only novel we could come up with that really treated >the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one >through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? ... Poul Anderson Jack of Shadows by Roger Zelazny Waldo and Magic Inc. by Robert Heinlein Larry Niven's Warlock series 'Not Long Before the End', 'What Good is a Glass Dagger' and a novel whose name escapes me. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: LadyHawke and spoilers Date: 24 Jul 85 15:01:19 GMT I have never seen a review that didn't give away the curse. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"... Date: 24 Jul 85 15:00:24 GMT Ewoks?, be serious. It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that this was a stupid descent into cutesieism to get the christmas toy market. They were big overbloated teddy bears that made cute noises, walked funny and had adorable skittish mannerisms otherwise skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them tying them up et al. Replace the cute little fuzzy bears with imperial stormtrooper armed with spears and I guarantee rather than being tied up we would have had a bunch of quite deceased storm troopers. Obviously constructed to evoke ("Oh aren't they CUTE") it was a stupid descent into adolescent plotting, the movie would have been vastly improved if it could have been taken seriously i.e. a real set of barbarian tribes that commanded respect and trepidation rather than ("oh they are so cute, we couldn't hurt a teddy bear") that we could have believed would have given the imperials some trouble given the right direction. Yes, I like fuzzies but only when treated as fuzzies not as a serious character which is to give storm troopers any competition. David Albrecht General Electric ------------------------------ From: convexs!ayers@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness Date: 24 Jul 85 14:27:00 GMT >I am not ashamed of the Ewoks I just think the costume design was >purposefully designed to be cute... I have to agree that "marketing" probably played a big role in the final selection of features for the Ewoks. HOWEVER, their very cuteness, coupled with the primitive nature of their weapons, was what made their (rather effective) strike at the Empire so startling (and fun to watch....). blues, II (shi dobu nan) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 85 0854-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #291 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 291 Today's Topics: Books - MacAvoy & Tepper, Music - In the Year 2525 (3 msgs) & Led Zeppelin & Styx & Warren Zevon, Miscellaneous - SF Westerns & Banzai Quote & Anti-Gravity & Quote Source & Alien Races (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 26 Jul 85 10:34:22-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Book of Kells So far, I am half way through The Book of Kells and having a great time. R. A. Macavoy has done a great job (the Acknowledgments are probably worth 25 cents alone) and if it keeps up, I foresee large sales of this book. Which leads me to the main point: TBoK is obviously being marketed for mass-market sales. The book doesn't have "Fantasy" or "SF" labels, has a cover that is very eyecatching, and a foldout inner cover that resembles a Harlequin cover painting. Look, I don't mind. Perhaps a few of the people who pick this up (probably women judging from the packaging) will enjoy this and find the rest of her books, and then look over on the next shelf for some more fantasy and then.... This book should do well. It deserves to. wz ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Subject: Mavin Manyshaped Date: 25 Jul 85 20:56:04 GMT I just bought and read the second of the Mavin Manyshaped novels. Recommended. Sherri Tepper has a way of phrasing moral problems that is elegant and pleasing. In the first book, it was explaining rape to a young boy. In this one, it is an exposition of the victim/perpetrator rights problem. All of this, and a "hard fantasy" adventure story too. Has anybody read "The Revenants"? Is it as worthwhile as the True Game series? Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 09:34 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: In the year 2525 Not only do I not remember who did the original, I just heard a "new wave" remake that I really enjoyed. Once again the DJ had already done an intro, so I missed the group. Can anyone help? Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 10:15 EDT From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: "In the Year 2525" In #282 Sean Colbath asked: >Can anyone tell me what group wrote/performed the song '2525' (I >think that's the name)? This incredible turkey (one man's opinion; no flames, please) was penned and sung by one Zager and one Evans (I don't remember their first names). As I recall, Zager and Evans were a duo from Nebraska or Kansas who hit the regional charts with this ditty. From there it spread like cancer to the national charts. As far as I know, they had never had another hit prior to "In the Year 2525," and never had one after it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 9:35:36 EDT From: Ben Littauer Subject: music & sf The song "2525" is by a twosome named Zager and Evans (sp?) and was released sometime in the late sixties. I loved it as a kid, but now...? I haven't seen mention of Emerson, Lake and Palmer's "Karn Evil 9" in all this music and SF discussion. For lovers of progressive rock, this is great stuff. All about the bleak future, culminating in a mammoth war beteween the computers and Mankind. And oodles of synths and electronic paraphenalia -- I love it! "Welcome Back, My Friends, To The Show That Never Ends..." -ben- [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who submitted similar information: Hank Shiffman (Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM Gary Swartzbaugh (Swartzbaugh.pasa@Xerox.ARPA) Steve Lionel (lionel%eludom.DEC@decwrl.ARPA) ] ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: music in sf (esp. Led Zeppelin) Date: 31 Jul 85 05:14:54 GMT tp@wucs.UUCP (tom thumbs) writes: > speaking of sf & music, someone mentioned hints of "Lord of the > Rings" in Led Zeppelin... if memory serves me correctly, "Ramble > On" from Led Zep II had lines like "in the darkest depths of > Mordor [something] a girl so fair / but Gollum, [?] the evil one, > crept up and slipped away with her..." and more things, enough so > that while in an altered state of consciousness, I had a mystic > revelation about the relationship between LZ II and LotR which > didn't survive the translation back to reality. << SPOILER WARNING - if you don't know how LORD OF THE RINGS ends!>> Y'know, it's funny. I heard those references to Mordor and Gollum in "Ramble On", too. Ever since, "Stairway to Heaven" (the last cut on the album) seemed to be telling the story of Saruman's trip west after the destruction of the Ring. (THE RETURN OF THE KING, Book Six, Chapter Six, "Many Partings"; pages 322-3 in my old Ballantine Books edition.) Saruman would have to be "the lady", so you can't interpret this too literally. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: sphinx.UChicago!see1@topaz.arpa (Cavewoman) Subject: fantasy in music, and vice versa Date: 24 Jul 85 23:00:19 GMT Styx has a song called "Lords of the Ring" on _Pieces_of_Eight_ which is vaguely Tolkienesque... "All hail to the Lords of the Ring,/ to the magic and mystery they bring,/ to the lands of ancient glory.." In the year of the Lord, a message came from above: The heavens opened with a mighty sound that shook the people in the town. And so we came from everywhere: the young and old, the rich and poor, to hear the legend of the magic ring and of the powers it could bring. (chorus and instrumentals...) ..and though the legend was your fantasy, we still need the hope it brings: ...all hail to the Lords of the Ring, to the magic and mystery they bring, to the promise in their story..." Now for the 'vice versa': There have been some pretty far-fetched examples of "music in SF/fantasy" (e.g., "this book mentioned a rock group or musical instrument" :-) , but I think the pipes of the Kinsmen in Richard Cowper's _Road to Corlay_ were pretty important to the story -- what a story!! (the sequel was not NEARLY as good, but I'd like to hear what you netters thought of both books). Ellen Keyne Seebacher x9.xes%UChicago.Mailnet@MIT-Multics.arpa ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!see1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 09:35 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: SF Music I suppose it ain't really SF, but the song "Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner" is a humorous song about a ghost with revenge on his mind by Warren Zevon. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 85 09:31:32 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: SF Westerns From: Peter Alfke > Has there ever been an SF Western? [These may fall more into the category of "Western-themed SF" than "SF Westerns"] There was an episode of the Twilight Zone in which a present-day "mad scientist" zaps a Western murderer, about to be hanged, into the present, upon which the guy goes berserk and starts shooting cars, TVs, etc. In another episode, some present-day Army men around Little Big Horn fall back into the past and get killed at Custer's Last Stand. Yet another episode had the father of a family travelling west, who are stranded in the desert running out of water and needing medicine for their son, somehow falling into the present and getting the needed water and penicillin. I think the son, who survived only due to the penicillin, eventually became someone famous. There was also one where the highstrung, somewhat wimpy star of a Western TV series pops into the world of the series and gets what he deserves. [The Twilight Zone was pretty big on time travel, wasn't it?!] In addition, the first Hoka story, "The Sheriff of Canyon Gulch" (??), was a Western parody. --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 10:35:02 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Another source for Banzai quote I heard U. Utah Phillips, the Golden Voice of the Great Southwest (America's Most Feared Folksinger) say "Remember, no matter where [ or maybe 'how far' ] you go, there you are" while MCing the Philadelphia Folk Festival at least ten years ago. There you are. Daniel Dern ddern at bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 85 13:11:06 EDT (Friday) Subject: Anti-Gravity From: Power.wbst@Xerox.ARPA The recent discussion about faster than light travel and writers 'understanding' of it prompted me to post this topic for discussion: In many SF stories the terms anti-gravity, gravitics, etc. are thrown about with abandon. If there were truly an anti-gravity device, what would it's effects be? To start the discussion rolling, it seems to me that the only thing holding me and my trusty keyboard to this wildly spinning globe is gravity. If gravity goes away, centrifugal (centripedal?) force will put me in orbit the hard way (Through this building). -Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 16:28:30 EDT From: Melinda Berkman Subject: Shalmaneser and Moira I've always wondered where the quote that is used to authorize real-world mode for the computer Shalmaneser in _Stand_On_Zanzibar_ is from. Seeing it used again in Diane Duane's Star Trek novel _The_Wounded_Sky_ has reminded me of it. Does anyone know where "I tell you once, I tell you twice, what I tell you three times is true" is from? Melinda Berkman ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 85 09:35:23 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: What Invaders Want I just finished reading Wayne Throop's posting on this subject, in which he says something like "Earlier postings have established that we would have no material wealth that invading aliens would want" (apologies for any drastic misquoting, but that was the gist of the comment). I don't recall anyone saying that, and I would be surprised if anyone had. Of course we have material wealth that invaders might want. It's just not likely to be the same materials we value as wealth. It's the old gimmick about aliens finding gold worthless because their cities back home are built with it, but *wow* is that really granite? I can easily imagine a technologically advanced race scouring other planets looking for certain elements (I dunno, Chromium, or Tungsten, or something). In fact, I can imagine them valuing certain materials, which we value highly, even higher. "Can you believe it, Chbik? These humanoids were *burning* their *hydrocarbons*!" Never having seen an episode of V (hurray for me!), I can't conjecture too successfully on why the lizards wanted water. But answer this for me: were they stealing salt water or fresh water? Or tap water? Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri 26 Jul 85 11:48:55-PDT From: Douglas M. Olson Subject: Advanced races on the prowl To: jhardest@BBNCCT.ARPA John Hardesty's recent posting caught my attention. While I certainly concede his analysis of human history's driving forces for exploration as primarily economic (exploitationist or imperialistic also come to mind) I'm not sure that these motivations can be ascribed to ALIENS. Supposing that another race did come here for exploitation, we'd surely notice... whether you choose to take this as de facto evidence that we've had no visitors, or whether it suggests that in all of recorded human history, any visitors we DID have were motivated by OTHER factors, is up to you. I find it an interesting point, either; 1) NO VISITORS YET or 2) NO IMPERIALISTIC VISITORS YET, BUT OTHERS. Who knows? Maybe we're quite literally a zoo. (How metaphorically you want to take this when identifying the 'bars' of our zoo is also fun, but another discussion entirely...;-). While I haven't offered any other motivations (unless you take seriously my speculation that we're a tourist attraction) several (admittedly human-biased) might be; 1-aliens on pilgrimmage; 2-aliens for [Name-your-favorite-deity]; 3-aliens for scientific knowledge; 4-aliens for nirvana-they-feel-from-our-particular- world-based-on-chemistry-or-human-psi-radiation-or-whatever. OK, I'm reaching. But we're speculating, right? By the way, I consider the aliens-for-slavery suggestion fairly well answered (negatively). My trigger is that we seem to be answering the alien-motivation question entirely from the negative aspects of our own psychology and historical experience. I submit that other views of aliens we haven't yet met are just as reasonable...and considerably less xenophobic. Doug (dolson @ eclb.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 85 14:05:06 PDT (Friday) From: Josh Susser Subject: The Great Silence All this talk about why aliens would come to Earth raises a pretty big question: Why haven't any aliens contacted Earth? I know there's a lot of "evidence" that Earth has had visitors, currently and in the past, but this is far from conclusive. To all appearances, we are alone in a galaxy that should be teeming with life and sentience. And so, we are left with the mystery of what has come to be called The Great Silence. Those of you who read "Analog" know that David Brin has a semi-regular column on science-fact and conjecture. Recently, he has done a few pieces on the question of The Great Silence. I only caught his most recent one, entitled "Just How Dangerous Is The Galaxy?" In this essay, Brin reviewed a number of hypotheses that could explain The Great Silence. In his previous column, he had asked for input from his readers responding to the above big question. In "Just How Dangerous Is The Galaxy?" he presented the responses, along with arguments for or against these hypotheses. For those of you who are interested in this topic, I recommend Brin's column. The essay is to long to summarize here, but I will present (in no particular order) some of Brin's hypotheses for an explanation of The Great Silence. 1) We are truly alone. 2) Sentient live is just appearing in the galaxy, and there are no civilizations significantly more advanced than we are. 3) There is a galactic interdict prohibiting contact with immature civilizations. 4) We are fundamentally different from other sentients, and thus have little chance of contact. For example, we might not be noticed by beings who lived on gas giants or were ethereal energy blobs. 5) Interstellar travel and communication are impossible. 6) Berserkers or other hostile galactics are killing off our friendly neighbors. 7) Civilizations with the agressive tendencies necessary to drive one to interstellar expansion kill themselves off before they mature (cf. Nuclear Winter), and the surviving galactics are mellow enough to expand slowly, so they just haven't found us yet. The tone of Brin's essay was rather depressing, and had me feeling that we really are alone in the galaxy. But, realizing this, Brin stuck in his own pet hypothesis: 8) Most habitable worlds are water worlds, so most other galactic sentients would be aquatic and incapable of building spacecraft. I haven't presented Brin's arguments for the above hypotheses; I would like to leave that for the net to discuss. I would also be interested in hearing any other hypotheses that could explain the mystery of The Great Silence. Josh Susser ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 85 0929-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #292 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 292 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Delany & Heinlein & Lee & McKillip & Silverberg, Music - Jefferson Airplane & Sunflower & SF References in Music, Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & 1985 vs 1955 & Generation Ships & Aliens (4 msgs) & Cuteness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jul 85 15:57 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Sub-Light Travel One of the classic sub-light books is Poul Anderson's Tau Zero. Plot <> A hydrogen-drive ship gets in a series of trouble which get it going closer and closer to the speed of light with time-dilation effects. ------------------------------ From: ihu1g!rls@topaz.arpa (r.l. schieve) Subject: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren Date: 25 Jul 85 23:01:52 GMT Dhalgren was mentioned in another posting. It is one of the few Sci-Fi books I gave up half way through in discust. Has anyone read it all the way through? Is the ending any better? Or does it just keep rambling on and on...? Rick Schieve ...ihnp4!ihu1g!rls ------------------------------ Date: Fri 26 Jul 85 22:49:25-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: The Green Hills of Earth Sorry, Aline, there is no complete Green Hills of Earth. The story is about a space vagabond poet and his poems, and contains fragments of what is supposed to be his most famous poem (TGHoE), but the poem is not given in full. Rather than spoil the story, I recommend it. My copy is in Robert Heinlein : The Green Hills of Earth Pan Books, 1956 but it has been reprinted many many times. Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: afc@pucc-i (Greg Flint) Subject: Wanted: "Don't Bite the Sun" by Tanith Lee Date: 26 Jul 85 19:03:22 GMT I am placing this request on behalf of several friends, each of whom would like a copy of "Don't Bite the Sun." The sequel ("Drinking Saphire Wine," I think) is readily available, but none of us has been able to find DBtS. If anyone wishes to sell a copy or knows where a copy may be purchased, please mail me a note and I will forward the information to my friends. Thanks in advance. Greg Flint UUCP: {hplabs|ucbvax}!purdue!pucc-i!afc {hplabs|ucbvax}!purdue!gdf {decvax|ihnp4}!pur-ee!gdf ARPA: afc@purdue-asc.arpa ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: Patricia McKillip Date: 26 Jul 85 17:23:13 GMT >Patricia McKillip's Riddle Master set. I remember Riddle Master of >Hed, and Harpist in the Wind. The other title escapes me. Is is >Heir of Sea and Fire? Yes. >What has this author done besides these? Has she had any books out >recently and are they as good? The only other book I know of is THE FORGOTTEN BEASTS OF ELD, which I think is far better than the Riddle Master trilogy. In retrospect, the Riddle Master books seem very much like a lot of other fantasies on the market, while TFBoE had something special --a haunting, mythic quality that few authors have managed to achieve. I highly recommend this one. the Shadow ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? Date: 26 Jul 85 23:46:55 GMT Read Robert Silverberg's Guardians of the Flame series. The most recent one was The Silver Crown and a fourth book is supposed to come out this fall. Also, this is a very easy way to "generate" fantasy literature since all you need is a tape recorder and a very creative dungeon master and you've got all it takes- assuming interesting gaming. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ From: infopro!david@topaz.arpa (David Fiedler) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 26 Jul 85 03:48:04 GMT Jefferson Airplane fanatics may or may not know that most of the lyrics from the song "Crown of Creation" were taken from the wonderful John Wyndham novel "Re-Birth". Dave Fiedler {harpo,astrovax,whuxcc,clyde}!infopro!dave People Phone: (201) 989-0570 USMail: InfoPro Systems, 3108 Route 10, Denville, NJ 07834 ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR) Subject: Re: SF with musical themes Date: 25 Jul 85 17:20:38 GMT How about the story that was in F&SF, sometime during the past year, in which the narrator had a friend who was a musician--but music which affected people's minds... Doesn't sound too original, the way I stated it, but I thought it was really well done. I believe the title was "Sunflower". AMBAR {the known universe}!ihnp4!ihlpg!jeand ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!jeand@topaz.arpa (AMBAR) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 25 Jul 85 17:35:20 GMT How about the song with the refrain ...A lesson to be learned Traveling twice the speed of sound It's easy to get burned. Or has this already been mentioned? (I'm not sure that I would recognize the title.) AMBAR {the known universe}!ihnp4!ihlpg!jeand ------------------------------ From: akgua!edb@topaz.arpa (E.D. Brooks [Emily]) Subject: Re: Technology and Magic Coexisting Date: 25 Jul 85 12:18:02 GMT For books/stories in this vein how about Randall Garrett's "Lord Darcy" stuff? Most of the technology is rather magical. . .and there's at least one about a non-believer studying material science. Emily Brooks akgua!edb ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!ofut@topaz.arpa (Jeff Offutt) Subject: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Future" - 1985 vs 1955 Date: 25 Jul 85 17:24:02 GMT > Here's a topic me and some friends have been bandying about: > What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from > 1955? > Any comments? > > Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe One of the most surprising thing would be the continuation of the Cold War. Quite a chilling thought, eh? To a science fiction fan, the lack of meaningful space exploration would be disappointing. To others, the space exploration we have done would be amazing. As far as the electronics go, I think the average person would expect something along those lines -- though perhaps not quite what we do have. Jeff Offutt School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ofut ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: generation ships Date: 26 Jul 85 15:25:52 GMT On generation ships: I think that a granddaddy of the genre is "Starship" by Brian Aldiss. Unfortunately, it has been years since I read it--and I can't remember my impressions. I see it lots in used book sections--it should be easy to pick up. Also, the "Cities in Flight" set of novels by James Blish probably fit in this category. They are collected in one volume by that name. I think there are 4 of them. They concern cities which have drives on them, called spindizzies. The cities are sort of the migrant workers of the galaxy. They do not quite fit--since they do travel faster than light. But they ARE ships designed for generations of travelers. I like these. Hope this helps. Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 25 Jul 85 18:01:54 GMT The enslavement of entire races is a common enough theme all over the place. First examples to come to mind are "The Word for World is Forest" by Ursula K.LeGuin, the Velantians (slaves to the Overlords in the Lensman series), and the lion-like aliens in "Warriors' Gate" in Dr.Who. Generally races are enslaved for one of the following reasons: (a) The slavers are just natural slavers at heart. This is the case in Sundiver, etc. They think that enslavement is the natural state of affairs. (b) The slaves can do something the slavers can't. This is true of the lion-like aliens in Dr.Who -- they had psychic abilities that allowed them to navigate in space (around meteor showers, through asteroid belts, etc.). It occurs to me, this was also the reason that the Slavers enslaved the Tnuctipun in Niven's known space series. (c) The number of slavers is too small to do some job they want to do. In this case, the slavers are technologically advanced enough to control large numbers of slaves, and these slaves are the ones who will do the work. Note that the slavers can actually be sympathetic characters if this is their motivation: they have something vastly important to do and must take repulsive measures to achieve their ends. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: tekmdp!johnr@topaz.arpa (John Rutis) Subject: Why Aliens Would Come to Earth Date: 24 Jul 85 22:19:18 GMT The reason for an alien race to want to come to Earth and the reason not to are perfectly summed up in "From Gustibl's Planet" by Cordwainer Smith. John Rutis ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Advanced races and overpopulation Date: 23 Jul 85 03:55:00 GMT Easing population pressure by shipping the extra people off-planet is a nice idea. Unfortunately, like far too many nice ideas, it has a number of major holes. If you want to have a good read while you find them, go read RAH's "Time Enough For Love." Otherwise, keep reading. Problem 1: Do you really think that Joe Shmoe in The Street really WANTS to go to Arcturus??? Really, now! Even if Arcturus makes Eden look like the middle of a tornado, all Joe wants is a nice home on the Riviera. He knows what the Riviera looks like, and that he's supposed to like it. He doesn't know what Arcturus looks like, and probably wouldn't believe you if you told him. Good old Fear Of The Unknown lends humanity a hand once again! Problem 2: Okay, lets use subterfuge, along the lines of the Kornbluth's "Marching Morons." In that case, why use all those now-scarce resources sending the neighborhood idiots to Arcturus? Even then, without a healthy percentage of Minds and Pioneer types, dumping all those nebishes would be tantamount to genocide anyway. But then, we won't go in to ethical questions, because we're all cold blooded Vulcans. Problem 3: I've got it! We'll send the brains to Arcturus and leave the nebishes to ruin the Earth by themselves. First, what makes you think the nebishes will fund all us science fiction freaks landing on Arcturus anyway. We might be getting something good that they weren't. Second, what makes you think that a 2% decrease in world population will make a difference? It grows that much in a few years anyway. And remember, population growth is a power curve that cuts out only when the good old Four Horses catch up with it. Thus, colonization is an ineffective method of removing population pressure. One thing will work however: internal control, such as China's. I won't go so far as to advocate out-and-out eugenics, because that can backfire magnificently (witness Dorsai! and "Space Seed"/"The Wrath of Khan"). However, we'd better start doing something to curb population pressure, or good ol' Mother Nature/Human Nature will grab the ball and run. Soil depletion in the cradle of civilization, Africa. World War Three. Famine in inner India. Inner city violence in North America and Europe. Read the play Our Town sometime, or the last portion of TEFL, and contrast with a current city. Living without locks on the doors? Leaving valubles in an open car? Walking through Central Park *After Dark?* Good Lord, its positively UnAmerican!!! And theres always mass insanity of course. But don't worry. Even if humans go the way of the Dinosaurs, Mother Nature still has raw material to work with. If we go by Nuclear conflict, that still leaves the Ants and Cockroaches. And after that, the Dolphins (or what remains of them) will get they're chance on land. Nature never gives up, she just gets sidetracked for a while. After all, you're sitting here reading this! I'm going to stop before this gets too depressing. There is one thing I can have hope in: once a permanent, self-supporting, off-Earth colony is established, Man is unlikely to die out. The catch is that societies don't work towards their own long term survival. Individuals do, and this creates societies as a side effect. Philosophers are more comfortable when they have plenty of paper and a free meal ticket. They don't like standing behind a plow. orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens Date: 26 Jul 85 21:29:13 PDT (Fri) From: Alastair Milne I'm surprised nobody has mentioned what seems to me the most obvious reason: distances in space are !!!ENORMOUS!!!, far beyond human capacity to perceive. Remember the definition of "infinite" given in the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy? "Big, multiplied by colossal, multiplied by staggeringly huge ...". An understatement, certainly, but aiming in the right direction. Isn't it more than likely that, in all that unthinkable volume, our little planet just hasn't been noticed? Consider: - All our radio and TV signals (and whatever other kinds we've been generating) can't be more than 50 or 60 light-years out by now. Furthermore, the ones at the front must be in pretty rotten shape: besides the attenuation as they describe the surface of an expanding sphere, the equipment that produced them wasn't very good to begin with. - The only other way I've heard of to detect a planet is to examine any eccentricity in its sun's motion; and I have no idea how well Earth can be detected that way, since we have 8 competitors, including some real heavyweights (though it is true that they are at much greater distances). - Even from a relatively low height above Earth, no signs of civilisation can be detected. You have to be surprisingly low before you can see regularities in surface patterns around New York, for instance, or the wanderings of the Great Wall of China. Though I grant that anybody scanning the EM bands at that distance should be bombarded with regular signals. How, then, is any non-Terran going to know that there is anything (like a planet) or anybody here to visit? This seems to me the most likely reason. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1985 06:10:04-EDT From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc Subject: Re: cuteness Obviously none of you guys have kids yet. The adaptive advantage of 'cuteness' in human offspring, and animal offspring too, is that it keeps their PARENTS from killing them. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Aug 85 0955-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #293 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 1 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 293 Today's Topics: Books - Niven, Films - Cocoon & Back to the Future, Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic (2 msgs) & Going into Space & Cuteness & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA Subject: Protector psychology Date: 22 Jul 85 23:48:00 GMT Something has been bothering me about the psychology of Niven's human-origin Protectors. To remind people: human-origin Protectors are humans infected with a certain virus. There are a few minor physical changes, like almost unlimited life. The mental changes are superintelligence and a desire to protect his/her relatives and/or humanity in general. However, consider two sets of human protectors mentioned in the Known Space series: Truesdale and the protectors of Home: They decide to break out of the hospital to spread the virus, killing the majority of the population of Home (several million people). Many of these people killed are their relatives. They do this to preserve humanity in general in the long term, most of whom they are unrelated to (order of 20 billion people). They seem to have no major qualms about this. Teela Brown and the protectors of Ringworld: She refuses to use the solar flare/laser system to save Ringworld from imminent destruction. Several trillion (?) "people" are going to die in a few years, but she refrains because using the system would kill 5% of the population. So what gives? Is killing a few million relatives OK but killing a few trillion hominids not? Is the kill-to-saved ratio the correct parameter to consider? I don't understand. Any speculation? Tim McDaniel; CSRD at the Silicon Prairie (Center for Supercomputing Research and Development at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) Usenet: ...{pur-ee|ihnp4|convex}!uiucdcs!mcdaniel Csnet: mcdaniel%uiuc@csnet-relay.arpa (really!) Arpa: mcdaniel@Uiuc.arpa Bitnet: MCDANIEL@UIUCVMD ------------------------------ Subject: Re: "Cocoon" query (* SPOILER !!! *) Date: 27 Jul 85 01:29:18 PDT (Sat) From: Alastair Milne > ** SPOILER ** > The boat captain (whose name I've forgotten) is left floating in a > rubber raft when the "Arcturians" and the old people are lifted up > to the mothership in his boat. Presumably, he survives. A little > later, though, we see the funeral scene, suggesting that the old > folks are thought to have drowned. > > Wouldn't our hero return to civilization to find himself charged > with thirty counts of manslaughter, at the very least? > > Should I put this down to another case of Hollywood playing fast > and loose with reason, or am I missing something? I have no intention of defending Hollywood (they don't just play fast and loose with reason, they skip it entirely), but I don't think there is anything too inconsistent here. I don't actually recall anything to suggest the skipper wasn't charged; though, considering the circumstances, I doubt very much whether the charges would have been manslaughter. Failure to obey orders from the Coast Guard, more likely. Had he cheerfully abandoned all the old people at midday in a calm, clear sea, and had they subsequently vanished, I think he would have been in for a VERY tough time in court. But that didn't happen. It was dark, and there was such a fog that 3 Coast Guard cutters were just about immobilised (and they are VERY professional; if they're incapacitated it's quite reasonable that a charter boat skipper would be, too). I'm sure that, as the skipper, he would face an inquiry, (especially for having failed to obey a direct order from the Coast Guard), and the prosecutor might try to take it to court; but with almost no evidence, about all he could be successfully charged with is failure to obey; and he might even weasel out of that if he pleaded the condition of his boat (though it might be preferable to charges of taking the old people out in an unsafe vessel). After all, nobody can inspect the boat to (dis)prove whatever he says about it. It may even that, knowing well enough what sort of trouble would be waiting for him, he worked out his story ahead of time with Walter's people. He could, in fact, say almost whatever he wanted, and the prosecutor could do nothing about it except try to catch him in inconsistencies. He would come out of it squeaky clean; but then, he wasn't in good shape before the affair started. He probably won't be doing anymore chartering for a while to come, even if he does get a new boat with that massive wad Walter paid him. Nevertheless, to judge by the last seen of him in the movie, I think he'll still be happier than he had been for a long time. Alastair Milne PS. I saw a letter in the LA Times complaining that Cocoon suggested that the solution to the "problem" of old people was to pack them off to Mars. It seems to me this doesn't merely miss the point, it actually gets it backward. Quite the opposite of being "dumped", they were being offered the only course by which they could still have long, useful lives; and this was so attractive to most of them, especially after their long internment in the rest home, living for nothing, that even the prospect of parting from their children and grandchildren didn't hold them back. Opinions? ------------------------------ Date: Fri 26 Jul 85 18:20:08-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Re: Back to The Future and Parallel Universes *SPOILER* > From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky) > Nah, Marty I going back in time is actually Marty I going to the > 1950's in the-universe-in-which-Marty-I-goes-to-the-50's (ie, > universe II).... My question is, what happens to Marty II when he > takes off in the DeLorean for the ``past?'' Does he go to the > 1950's of universe I -- or somewhen else entirely? Off hand, I'd > have to vote for the latter; a closed loop in the multiverse seems > to be a pretty nasty violation of causality in the system. Personally, I think the time-travel "system" BTF was based on is one where the universe adapts when you change the past, rather than there being lots of parallel universes. One thing I don't understand in either interpretation is the clock in the Professor's house (at the beginning of the movie) which has a man hanging off the face of a clock. Where did he get that clock? The parallel universe does raise some interesting questions. Assuming Marty I travels back to Universe II, then Marty II has to take off for Universe III (the Universe which is just like Universe II, except that the Marty who travelled back in time into that universe had already lived through a Universe where Marty I had travelled back in time). Marty III of course goes to Universe IV, etc. It seems that we have an infinite number of Universes. 1) Since no Marty travels to Universe I, it seems that we end up with one less Marty. This is OK, since infinity-1 = infinity, but from the standpoint of Universe I, some matter has just ceased to exist (i.e., one DeLorean and one Marty). Isn't that illegal or something? 2) Do the Universes converge? 3) Each travel back in time creates a new countably infinite dimension of universes, so the total number of universes at any given time (sic) is countable. Is there any way to create an uncountable number of universes? ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 25 Jul 85 20:56:02 GMT > From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA > while waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of > us were discussing the interface between technology/science and > magic. The only novel we could come up with that really treated > the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one > through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? (I have forgotten > again, even though it was a fantastic book. Any help?) Drat, I can't remember either! I think it is either John Brunner or Gordon Dickson, but I wouldn't bet the rent. (I suppose I'll have to find my copy of the book if nobody else comes up with the answer.) > Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein. Well, yes. The Piers Anthony "Incarnations of Immortality" series contains this notion, and is tolerably readable. Better still is Saberhagen's "Empire of the East" trilogy and the Books of Swords. Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: Tech/sci & magic--esp. Anthony's Apprentice Adept Date: 26 Jul 85 23:58:22 GMT Based on Chris Miller's inquiry I wrote that Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept series was a good interrelation between science & magic, but that I believed Anthony limited magic too much. > I think that in the Apprentice Adept books, one of the points > Anthony goes to great lengths to make is the flexibility and > diversity of effects which one can create given 'just one means' > of magic work. This is true, he didn't limit the scope of the magic, only the means to produce it. He loves to strictly define things. My personal preference is for more freedom. POLL: Which type of magic do you prefer? Choices: 1) Memorized & specially developed spells & artifacts (for instance Jack Vance or Master of the Five Magicks) 2) Adept magic (like Merlin or Gandalf) 3) objective magic, such as Piers Anthony's Xanth or Apprentice Adept where magic is strictly defined 4) Holy/Divine magic, demons & devils (Glen Cook's El Murid or Brian Daley's in The Starfollowers of Coramonde) 5) SF, as in mechanical magic (The Runestaff Series by Moorcock) 6) Other - please give a short explanation Send your replies direct and I'll post the results. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jul 85 1:11:16 EDT From: "John f. Hardesty" Subject: Why would we go in to space Why would we leave this planet? The several possibilities are: 1. Exploration 2. Colonization 3. Escape 4. Invitation 5. Expansionist (Manifest Destiny) 6. Dumb Luck (My favorite) The first , exploration, is the simplest to talk about.. even though we are a violent race (by nature) we have an insatiable curiosity and the desire to know something about what we do not know. The second , colonization, although different would probally follow the exploration part because first we explore.. Colonization might happen because the ability to procreate , unchecked is unfortunately our biggest problem (worldwide that is) has forced us to either stay on earth or find greener pastures. As human history has shown most discoverys of new territory (ie the New World ) by early explorers other than Columbus has been because people are looking for a better place to live.. The third escape , could be a group of scientific types or a group counter to the current regime decides that instead of staying and suffering that they would explore the the galaxy searching for a better place ( similar to two but not quite) The fourth reason might be an invitation by a space faring race to become a space faring race by their assistance. The fifth reason might be that one group has conquered the earth (politically)and wants to spread its brand of philosophy across the galaxy by conquering and freeing any down trodden beings .... The last reason that i put down is dumb luck... I think this has the best reason to go.. some one will accidently figure out the way to travel greater distances in shorter time so we could explore the galaxy and by some chance it works and we get out into space and are not wiped out by other space faring races that we are imposing on their territory and find some habitable planet under another G class star that is uninhabited and that we would bring our technology and start poluting that world as well and keep going and becoming the star slob of the galaxy... yes our race, the human race, will trash your planetary systems with garbage that you have never thought of as pollution but then again maybe we will blow ourselves up.. and a space faring race will laugh at us and declare us a nuclear hot zone. Another reason no space faring race has come here is that maybe we are the Cleveland of star systems i mean maybe we have nothing to offer a space faring race except television.... John Haredsty Jhardest@bbncct ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness Date: 25 Jul 85 17:29:09 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >Interesting theory about cuteness: we did it ourselves. > >This has nothing to do with the discussion of Ewoks being cute, but >it's an interesting hypothesis. Baby animals are "cute" primarily >because humans find them cute. Over millions of years of >evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait, >because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all >was reluctant to kill cute animals. Of course there are good >physical reasons why most mammalian young resemble human babies, >but I think there's a strong "selection" factor there as well. To consider the pointless diversion a bit more, I suspect that cuteness is intended (in the evolutionary sense) to appeal to the adults of the same species, exempting the young from competition and/or getting the parents to feed them. By and large only the young of species which feed their young are cute. By your theory, cockroaches should be almost intolerably cute. :-) ------------------------------ From: lindley@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (John L. Templer) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 27 Jul 85 03:15:53 GMT > This is probably not quite what you were after, but hopefully > still relevant. In SUNDIVER and STARTIDE RISING, David Brin has > postulated an interesting idea: the enslavement of an entire race. > (Has anyone seen this idea before? If so, where?) Well, there's Larry Niven's short story "What Can You Do With Chocolate Covered Manhole Covers?", which is found in the anthology "All the Myriad Ways." The idea in that story is that an alien race seeded humans on Earth as a means to improve the stock among their servant race (us). > Now, this sounds highly plausible to me. Wouldn't humanity > benefit from having access to the *entire* scientific, artistic, > and philosophical output of another intelligent species? Assuming that you mean humans interacting with a more advanced race, then I don't think that would necessarily be such a good idea. I pretty much agree with the idea that the more advanced civilization would destroy the other, even if accidentaly. > Taking it as a given that humans have a different perspective on > life, the universe, and everything (sorry, Doug) from our > hypothetical aliens, we might have something(s) they would kill > (or even cross interstellar space) to get. About the only things I can see a race traveling interstellar distances to obtain are such items as life extending drugs (like Niven's booster spice), or cultural items. A planet or star system might have too little of some material like a certain metallic element, but they wouldn't need to get that from another civilization; they'd just find some nice uninhabited rock ball and mine it themselves. > As to expense; once you collect a sufficient sample, you cart them > to your own system, give them a "game preserve," and they will be > self supporting. You just quietly skim a few off the top every > year to fill your own needs. (Now, does anyone want to discuss > the large number of disappearances every year on this planet?) > BTW, does any- one know just how many people it would take to > "guarantee" a safe gene pool? How about cultural continuity? See above. John L. Templer, University of Texas at Austin {allegra,gatech,seismo!ut-sally,vortex}!ut-ngp!lindley ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #294 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 2 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 294 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Heinlein & McKiernan & Rosenberg, Films - Star Trek, Music - Moorcock & Biggle & SF Using Songs & Silverberg & Story Request & Hubbard, Miscellaneous - Aliens (3 msgs) & Generation Ships & Christopher Lloyd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat 27 Jul 85 17:55:08-EDT From: Seshashayee Murthy Subject: Name of Asimov book I recently read the first part of a story by Asimov. I cannot remember the name of the story or the magazine. Can anyone paraphrase the remaining portion of the story or tell me the name of the book. A young man comes to a planet as an apprentice. He is to help in obtaining energy from the planet's neutron star. He is however more interested in finding out about the hallucinations that people on the planet seem to suffer when they leave the dome. He leaves the dome one day and finds out that the hallucinations are merely attempts by the local life-form to communicate with humans. It is capable of communicating using telepathy. He has an extended conversation with it. He learns of the creature's despair at its planet being taken over by humans. When he returns he is summoned by the boss. I never found the later issues of the magazine and now I do not remember the name. ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Number of the Beast Date: 26 Jul 85 19:48:14 GMT Admittedly, he does go a bit heavy on the sex; but with *today's* books, I have learned to ignore it and get to the meat of the story... in this case, it's a fun romp and nothing else. Are you so insistent on perfect science, et al., that you ignore everything else? If so, go re-join the anti-1999 crowd; we who don't insist that science FICTION be fact will be happier. It IS getting a bit obvious that he's going into a contracting spiral into the vortex of {sexy Competent Woman}, though. Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: re: Signet's paperback version of _The Iron Tower_ trilogy. Date: 27 Jul 85 18:16:47 GMT In response to a previous posting about the Signet paperbacks of _The Iron Tower_ trilogy: Book one, _The Dark Tide_, is/was set for release in August... *However*, I just returned from my local bookstore, and copies already are on the shelves and selling (I autographed thirty-one before I got out of there). Book two, _Shadows of Doom_, is set for release in September. Book three, _The Darkest Day_, is set for release in October. Signet has done a fine job: Superb cover art by Alan Lee. Words, of course, by yours truly. I hope that you enjoy them. Dennis L. McKiernan {ihnp4!}cbuxc!dim ------------------------------ From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? Date: 27 Jul 85 17:10:38 GMT From: wucs!busch!mte@seismo (Moshe Eliovson) > Read Robert Silverberg's Guardians of the Flame series. Guardians of the Flame is by Joel Rosenberg, not Robert Silverberg. When I asked him at Boskone, Mr. Rosenberg said these would be coming out at the rate of about one a year for "a while". My guess is that the next one will be out next spring sometime; The Silver Crown came out in March. He also said that when he's not doing Guardians, he'll be doing more SFish stuff. So far he's got one book out besides the Guardians books, called Ties of Blood and Silver. -Dragon UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 27 Jul 1985 17:25-EDT From: sdl@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Re: Star Trek & Grace Lee Whitney >Ms. Whitney was in Star Trek III: she was the barmaid who talked to >McCoy! Grace Lee Whitney was in Star Trek III, all right, but not as the barmaid. (According to the closing credits, that part was played by Sharon Thomas.) Ms. Whitney was the woman in the restaurant who stood up to watch (and reminisce) as the Enterprise pulled in to dock. Steven Litvintchouk (617)271-7753 ------------------------------ From: convexs!sheppard@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Science Fiction in music Date: 25 Jul 85 23:41:00 GMT Michael Moorcock, author of the "Jewel in the Skull" and "Elric" sf series (among others), wrote the lyrics for at least two songs on Blue Oyster Cult's "Extraterristrial Live" album. One of them is named "Black Blade", and is based on Elric's black runesword Stormbringer. I don't happen to remember the other song at the moment. Andy Sheppard Convex Computer Corporation ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.arpa (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: music in sf Date: 22 Jul 85 19:10:36 GMT > From: Evan Kirshenbaum > Without refering to my collection, that's all I can think of > offhand. McCaffrey's the only author I know of who really uses > music as an important part of the story. Llyod Biggle Jr's THE STILL SMALL VOICE OF TRUMPETS is one example, but nearly everything of Biggle's features music in one way or another. (Just in general, by the way, I like Biggle quite a bit.) -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: More SF using Songs Date: 26 Jul 85 20:50:26 GMT A few more SF stories using songs: Anne McCaffrey's DRAGONFLIGHT, wherein the Question Song and the Ballad of Moreta's Ride convince Lessa that she can jump back in time 400 years to bring forward the personnel & dragons of 5 Weyrs; CRYSTAL SINGER by the same author, wherein ``singing'' is used to locate crystals with rather unusual properties of sympathetic vibration; THE GREEN HILLS OF EARTH by Robert A Heinlein, which is an explanation to a song; STARDANCE and its sequel, by Spider Robinson; STAR FIRE by Ingo Swann, about a rock singer whose ability to ``get in tune with his audience'' turns out to be exactly what it says. I have a bunch of others hovering at the back of my mind refusing to be acknowledged; maybe someone else will jog my memory. BTW, I make no claims on the readability of any of these stories, merely that they have songs as major or semi-major parts. Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ Date: Sat 27 Jul 85 10:22:12-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Re: Music in SF (or, Notes From All Over) > From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX (marty moore) > I'm surprised no one has mentioned "A Work of Art" by James Blish. > It concerns the revivification, as a scientific experiment, of the > composer Richard Strauss in the year 2161. I just read the story "Gianni" by Robert Silverberg, reprinted in /The Conglomeroid Cocktail Party/. It's about the revivification, as a scientific experiment of the composer Gianni Pergolesi in the year 2008. Sound familiar? Well, yes and no. The story is quite different, although it starts out essentially the same. Since "A Work of Art" is much older, it seems likely Silverberg wrote this as a variation on that story. ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music or vice versa Date: 26 Jul 85 20:32:53 GMT grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady) writes: > And as an attempt to come up with a gap-bridging > conversation-starter, can anyone think of interesting examples of > written SF in which music played a dominant theme? One such might > be Melinda Snodgrass's Star Trek novel, _The_Tears_of_the_Singers_. I remember a novel in which a young man who hated music was sent back into time to become Ludwig Von Beethoven... actually living his entire adult life. The premise was that history had to be created in the future, which was pretty weak but barely plausible, although never followed up (it was mentioned once at the beginning of the story, nowhere else). Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 27 Jul 85 23:55:24 pdt Subject: Music AND Science Fiction - Battlefield Earth L. Ron Hubbards latest epic; "Battle Field Earth" comes complete with ads for the 'dynamic' musical score that he wrote for the book. I guess you're supposed to play the record while reading the novel. Has anyone heard the music? Is it any good? The book itself was mediocre, I can guess what the music must be like. Bret Marquis bang!bam@NOSC ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 85 11:18:08 PDT (Saturday) From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Would a technologically advanced race advance race want John f. Hardesty writes: > "As to a technologically advanced race subjugating another >race, technology is no indication of socio-political advancements. >As to wondering where this can be seen, just read your history >books... The Europeans over the native americans empires of the >1400-1500`s . The Europeans were considered the most advanced of >the time and yet they enslaved the Aztecs and Incan people..." Isn't the level of technology a race has limited by the ethics of the people? For example if it were generaly accepted as being ok to steal and rob, then the average man cannot invest his time an energy in inventing new technologies, or even maintain current technology once it gets very advance. It being much easier to destroy items of high technology. The Europeans were technologically more advanced than the rest of the world in the 1400's, but their attitudes had to change before they could continue to develop. The type of conduct displayed in America would not be condoned today. The problems of today, for example racism, through bad, are an improvment over a hundred years ago. The almost primitive attitudes of judging a man by the color of his skin is a immaturity which a more advanced race could not afford to carry. To maintain a high technology you need to use the potential of each man. I tend to think that any technologically advanced race with our kind of individual mode of operation must have a fairly strong sense of ethics. Now the good old hive-mind race might mistreat the natives, but once communication is established it could be shown that trade was more profitable than conquest. Also there maybe criminal individuals, but these are the exceptions in any society. Henry III cate3.sv@Xerox.arpa ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 26 Jul 85 17:25:13 GMT I'd like to make some clarifications on some points raised about an earlier article. franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >> Living space might be a reason, [for alien invasion] but would >> require an unreasonably advanced transport technology to make it >> feasible and at the same time have the technology level low >> enough to preclude easier solutions to population pressure (such >> as Ringworlds). (The exception is when cost is no object, eg, >> the aliens need to escape from a supernova or the like.) > > First of all, I doubt that Ringworlds are an easier solution to > population pressure. It takes a lot of energy for interstellar > travel, but it takes a lot more to build a ringworld. I have no idea how much energy must be expended to build a ringworld. But I seriously doubt it would be as much as the energy required to boost the life support and posessions of several billion alien folks to near-lightspeed. > Besides, there is an underlying fallacy here: the idea that there > is such a thing as enough living space. Exponential growth will > use up whatever space is available, in relatively short order. So > we have a ringworld. That *is* a fallacy all right. But I don't agree that it is "here", in the sense of my asserting that there is such a thing as "enough living space". All I said was that aliens looking to increase their living space would probably emulate Holland rather than Spain. (That is, they would construct some rather than exploring to get it.) I based this assertion on the relative costs as they seem to me with known or extrapolated technology. > In short, our children *can* go to the stars; and even come back. Quite so. Explorers and trade can be sent to the stars. However, I still have my doubts about wholesale export of populace. Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Slaves & such Date: 26 Jul 85 21:29:55 GMT jcr@mitre-bedford writes: >In questioning the assertion about slavery, I wrote something like: > Would slaves have any value at all to an advanced race? At some > point, machine labor becomes cheaper & more efficient than slave > labor, & once a race has passed this point, what use would they > have for slaves? Of course one might argue that this applies > only to physical labor, & perhaps they'd have use for > intelligent slaves in other sorts of labor (nightmare scenario: > aliens kidnap the entire human race & make accountants of us > all!). >I have to stand by this too; I've yet to see a convincing line of >reasoning to the contrary. (Please remember that I'm not really >discussing the TV series "V" here, but rather the more general >assertions I delineated above.) What is there to gain from slavery? The same thing HUMAN slave-owners get out of it. That feeling of owning a life, the biggest ego-boost possible outside a thionite dream. And believe me, humans feel it; the heady feeling of power attracts many people. Despite the well-known fact that slaves are uneconomic for the reasons you stated. >An interesting possibility occurs to me. Imagine a race whose >evolution has been similar to that of Vulcans, from an emotional & >violent past to a very cold & rational present. But this race has >gone even further; they've lost emotion to the extent that they are >now totally unable to create art. How- ever, they can still >appreciate it, and works of art from their distant past are highly >treasured. What would happen if such a race discovered humanity as >we currently are? Might they take us as slaves, forcing us to >create artworks for them? Would such a scheme work? Would the >kidnapped humans create great art? Perhaps so, if suffering >contributes to great art. Or would they turn out trash? Would the >aliens know the difference? Has anyone read anything like this? I read one, but I remember neither title nor author. Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1985 14:16:04-EDT (Sunday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: generation ships Some titles are: Captive Universe by Harry Harrison Exiles Trilogy by Ben Bova (Exiled from Earth, Flight of Exiles, End of Exile) Starburst by Jack Williamson ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 85 15:52 EDT (Sun) From: Mijjil Subject: Christopher Lloyd Haven't we also neglected to mention his bit part in the Jack Nicholson film "Going South"? {Mijjil} ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 0945-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #295 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 2 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 295 Today's Topics: Films - The Black Cauldron, Music - SF in Music, Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & Cuteness (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Black Cauldron Date: 28 Jul 85 00:18:15 GMT The Black Cauldron (PG, Walt Disney Productions) is the latest full length animated film from the studio that created and defined the standards of animation with films like 'Snow white' and 'Pinochio'. The Disney people are declaring this to be a new classic, and while the film falls well short of that lofty goal, it is a significant improvement from such Disney films as 'Fox and the Hound' and '101 Dalmations'. The storyline has a few flaws -- in general it moves well, but there are some problems that keep it from being completely convincing. There is a sudden appearance of a magic sword at a critical place with no real explanation that is just TOO convenient, and the overall theme seems to be 'It doesn't matter HOW idiotic you are, if you are good, you'll end up on top...' Not, unfortunately, very realistic. My biggest gripes are technical, though. The animation is very uneven, with some parts of the film jumping off the screen like the best that Disney has ever produced, while other parts are very muddy and passive. There are continuity problems (some of the fairies randomly change clothing, and certain objects seem to be carried only when they are needed). Some of the special effects, especially any time they try to show running water, fall flat on their face. The animators have worked very hard at creating a very dark and oppressing atmosphere, unfortunately in many cases they cross the line and simply become washed out and murky. It definitely isn't a classic film, but it certainly isn't the worst Disney has produced -- I rate it somewhere about about Alice in Wonderland or Jungle Book for technical quality -- well above clunkers such as Bedknobs and Broomsticks or Sword in the Stone, but certainly not a Snow White, either. Disney needed to work harder at the characterizations. With the exclusion of the young boy here (also known as the Klutz with the Golden Heart) and the funny looking thing called Gurgie (also known as the Ewok Clone -- keep an eye on toy stores for this one, folks...) I didn't care about anyone in the film. The 'princess' was especially bad -- she reminded me more of Wendy or Princess Leia than anything else, and seemed badly out of place. The evil Horned King was inked so darkly that you never got a good look at him -- they seemed to be attempting to build the horror by inference instead of by showing the king. Unfortunately, I don't think it worked very well. The Horned King might just have well stayed offstage. In general, I was disappointed with Black Cauldron, but not nearly as disappointed as I thought I would be. It was worth seeing, but I don't think it will have the staying power Disney thought it would have. I wonder how it would have turned out had Don (Secret of NIHM) Bluth, who was working on the film before he left Disney to found his own studio, had been able to do the film. A couple of trivia comments on the film-- Listed in the credits under 'Additional Dialogue' was the name 'Roy E. Disney'. Roy Disney was Walt's brother, and at one time head of Walt Disney Productions. It gives you an idea how long they have been trying to put this film together, since he retired from the company in the 70's sometime. One of the fairy folk, also, looked suspiciously like Peter Pan. In general, all of the fairy folk drove me up the wall -- I kept making snide 'Wendy-bird' comments throughout every scene they were in. They were just TOO cute for my taste -- stolen from both "Peter Pan" and "Fantasia" simultaneously, they seem to have gotten the worst of both... Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Science Fiction/Fantasy <--> Music Date: 28 Jul 85 01:33:08 GMT This topic seems to be surviving, so I just thought I'd throw in my two cents. I don't remember seeing any of these instances before, but I might have missed them. Music as a major theme in stories: _The Infinity Concerto_ by Greg Bear: The premise of this story is that Faery is a real place, and the Sidhe exist, and the way you get to meet them is my manipulating one of the creative arts to produce a "work of power." The Infinity Concerto is an example of one such work, and its only performance is responsible for many people crossing over from our world to Faery. One of the best fantasy novels I've read in some time, even if it is the first book in a trilogy... _The Demolished Man_ by Alfred Bester: I guess that music isn't really a *major* thematic device here, but here's how it fits in. The psychopath who wants to commit the perfect murder in a society where the police have perfected telepathy as an interrogation technique. This makes it practically impossible to get away with anything. He attempts to outwit the cops by asking a friend of his who writes advertising jingles which are so effective that it's quite impossible to forget them. He puts his mind to work on one of her best, and thus masks out his thoughts. Science Fiction or Fantasy references in music: "Ride my Llama," _Rust Never Sleeps_ by Neil Young. "I really got some news, I met a man from Mars. He picked up all my guitars And played me traveling songs. And when we got on ship, He brought out something for the trip. He said, "It's old but it's good," Like any other primitive would." "Sail Away," _The Grand Illusion_ (?) by Styx. Another song about alien visitors. There may be other examples from the Styx discography, (Mr. Roboto?) but I don't keep up with them any more. Kansas is probably another good candidate, judging from their album cover artwork. "Hey Mr. Spaceman," _Fifth Dimension_ by the Byrds. One of my favorite space songs about inexplicable nocturnal visitors. "I hope they get home all right!" "Freezing Steel," _Catch Bull at Four_, by Cat Stevens: This song is cryptic enough that it's tough to tell what's going on, but it appears that our hero has been kidnapped by pirates from Venus for purposes shrouded in mystery. Or did he just dream it all? _Music inspired by the Lord of the Rings_ by Bo Hansson. This one is pretty obscure -- I think I picked it up in the cutout bins at a Camelot record store somewhere in the southeast. It's an album of synthesizer dominated instrumentals based on various parts of the Tolkien trilogy. I wouldn't really advise rushing right out to buy this one, because it's appeal is pretty narrow. I was blown away by it as a young Tolken-o-phile, and I still listen to it from time to time. It's the music most evocative of Middle Earth (or my conception of it) that I've ever run into. (Not that "Ramble On" isn't nice, but I just never picture Led Zep doing a gig in front of the Cracks of Doom.) So there it is, for what it's worth. Lewis Barnett,CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ Date: Sun 28 Jul 85 00:35:04-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #286 > the interface between technology/science and magic. The only > novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence > of the two (as opposed to the existence of one through the other) > was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? (I have forgotten again, even > though it was a fantastic book. Any help?) Was there ever a (2) _Operation_Chaos_ is by Poul Anderson, and I've never heard of a sequel. Pity. He's probably written other science+magic books, though I can't think of any. He should have, anyways. (1) Jack of Shadows, and to some extent Madwand and its sequel which I can't remember, by Zelazny, had magic and science in some moderate juxtaposition; The Cyborg and The Sorcerers, by L. Watt-Evans (I'm 63.1% sure of the Watt, and 4.08% of the Evans, part of his name), had sorcery and science; and I seem to remember that the sorcery was either real or a very unscientific kind of psi. Either way, the book is quite good. Juxtaposition, a trilogy (what else? Save perhaps a 10-book trilogy) by Piers Anthony, had science and magic in closely parallel worlds. I haven't the endurance to reread it and see if one was reduced to the other. For that matter, the Incarnations of Immortality has both, though Anthony's magic is so mechanistic in function and invocation that it's not worth it. How can Incarnations be so impersonal? (0) There are scads of books which reduce magic to science: Lord of Light comes immediately to hand. Are there any which reduce science to magic? (-0.5) What is magic anyways? Most fantasy books I've read seem to treat it as either an equivalent of technology (you use the magic hourglass by changing the color of the sand, or turning it upside down), or of psionics (you throw sheer will at the evil wizard and his spells fribble). In my D&D-variant worlds, it's a personal force: you negotiate with Whoever to get your magic, giving fealty to demon princes or milk and rice-cakes to the Moons Goddess and so on, and usually getting power in return; it is mechanistic to the extent that these Powers behave as predictably as other people, and have some motives for not screwing too many worshippers too badly. I believe that James Blish used a similar technology, if extremely different motives, in _Black_Easter_&_The_Day_After_Judgement_ -- Aha! another science+magic book, and arguably the best of those I've mentioned. Any others? (-1) [For the amusement of H.P. Lovecraft fans] [The reverse of the request, hence the negative index] I've found some books by Brian Lumley, science-fictionalizing the Cthulhu Mythos. **** MARGINAL SPOILER **** Some of the Mythos deities are real, and the characters spend a book or two battling shoggoths and wha tnot. Others are -- as of the middle of the second book, and it were amusing if this turned out to be false -- personifications of natural forces: Azathoth, the blind idiot daemon sultan who mutters horribly at the center of the universe, is nuclear energy; Nyalarthotep, the messenger of the Elder Gods, is telepathy; and so on. (I don't see why the characters are so worried about the minor gods. They've gotten rid of -- enslaved! -- the major ones, by turning them into scientific forces. What are a few shoggoths, or even Ithaqua, compared to Azathoth and Nyalrathotep and Shub-Niggurath? 8-) Anyways, this series is truly amusing, with an apparently serious mix of the space opera (super-scientists design super-gadgets and conquer everything; o.k., Lumley's not that extreme) and H.P. Lovecraft style horror (_Necronomicon_ and _Pnakotic_Manuscripts_ and occultism and slimy nameless horrors and other anonymous atrocities.) Titles: _The_Burrowers_Beneath_, _The_Transition_Of_Titus_Crow_, and probably others. These two are consecutive and probably the beginning of the series. Blessings (generally necessary after discussing Elder Gods), Bard ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abominations"... Date: 28 Jul 85 01:55:45 GMT dca@edison.UUCP (David C. Albrecht) writes: >Ewoks?, be serious. It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that >this was a stupid descent into cutesieism to get the christmas toy >market. They were big overbloated teddy bears that made cute >noises Well, except for the basic fact that the Ewok doll didn't make it to the market until about July (I know, I have about 6 in my office at work) I have to agree with what is being said. All of it, in my opinion, is beside the point. They were exceptionally cute, and they probably were set up to some degree towards the cute and fuzzy doll market, but I like them DESPITE all of that. I think that they were making a point that most people seem to have missed -- that sometimes the most dangerous things out there simply don't LOOK dangerous. The Ewok was a great example of something that is easy to underestimate -- they look like cute little teddy bears, so they can't hurt anyone. This same mentality is what gets kids and other people maimed in places like Yellowstone every year. I think that ROTJ overdid it -- the attackes the Ewoks made on the imperial forces were just TOO primitive to be effective -- if the stormtroopers fall apart that easily they never would have gotten that far in the first place -- but the concept of the Ewok is quite valid, and I thought that they pulled a lot of personality out of those furry, funny looking teddy bears. Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness Date: 28 Jul 85 00:29:59 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >because humans find them cute. Over millions of years of >evolution, cuteness proved to be an important survival trait, >because the meanest nastiest most successful predator of them all >was reluctant to kill cute animals. It was an important survival trait alright, but not because it kept off predators (who frequently single out the young and the weak). What it did was arouse strong caring and protective instincts in the parents. I don't think even a wounded animal is acknowledged to be as dangerous as an animal whose young are threatened. Works, doesn't it? > The treasuring of cute little animals is hardly a cultural > universal. . . . Another for example: the fellows up in the > Great White North who make their living clubbing baby seals > probably don't shed any tears over the 'cute' baby seals with > their 'cute' big eyes. I suspect the 'cute' reaction is primarily > a fairly recent Anglo-American cultural tradition, since I've > never seen it mentioned in any other cultural contexts. Anyone > else out there have any ideas about this? There are few surer ways to arouse my ire than to make remarks like that about Canadians. You are, I assume, referring to the harp seal hunt in Newfoundland. I suggest you find out what actually happens (and NOT from Greenpeace, who paid to have a baby seal skinned alive for a photographer: the only time it was ever done) before you draw these conclusions. To put it mildly, the image spread by the most vocal people is rather one-sided. Reactions to the softer, more rounded forms of younger animals and birds have been studied by biologists. The same sort of reactions are found across species, never mind cultures. For instance, if a cardboard model is placed in a bird's nest, next to the real hatchling, and it is made even more rounded (what is called "supernormal"), the adult seems to prefer it over the real hatchling. And just watching the drawings comparing model to hatchling, you had to admit the model was cuter. Same for supernormal models of baby rabbits, and of human babies, even though, viewed objectively, they looked acutely hydrocephalic and in need of immediate surgery.. (If anybody's interested, I believe at least some of these experiments were done by Nikko Tinbergen in his famous experiments with gulls). So I believe it's more biological than cultural. And even culturally, enjoyment of cuteness can hardly be called recent. Look at the number of Victorian books (though I admit I'm thinking of children's books right now) in which it appears. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 1017-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #296 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 2 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 296 Today's Topics: Books - McKillip & Niven & Varley & Footfall & Tall Tales in a Bar Stories & Time Travel Stories, Films - Back to the Future (2 msgs), Music - Dick & SF in Music & Platinum Blond, Radio - HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Miscellaneous - Generation Ships & Technology vs Magic & Cuteness & Con Announcement ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Patricia McKillip Date: 29 Jul 85 17:16:53 GMT Patricia A. McKillip: FORGOTTEN BEASTS OF ELD NIGHT GIFT Hed Trilogy: RIDDLE-MASTER OF HED HEIR OF SEA AND FIRE HARPIST IN THE WIND THROME OF THE ERRIL OF SHERRIL Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 28 Jul 85 09:04:29 GMT >Larry Niven's Warlock series 'Not Long Before the End', 'What > Good is a Glass Dagger' and a novel whose name escapes me. \\The Magic Goes Away//. My copy is a trade paperback from Ace Science Fiction. Two more stories set in the same universe are ``The Lion in his Attic'' and ``Talisman'', both of which appear in Niven's newest collection ``Limits''. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: Varley's Villians (Villians?) [mild spoiler: Ophiuchi Subject: Hotline] Date: 28 Jul 85 08:58:08 GMT I would also consider \\The Ophiuchi Hotline// another important exception to your proposed rule that Varley tends to use primarily male ``villians''. Regarding ``villain'' as meaning ``antagonist(s) plus cohorts'' (which is not really the same thing), I would only designate Boss Tweed and the Vaffas as villians. Vaffas come in either sex, about 50-50. Tweed, although masquerading as male, is actually somatically (and I believe genetically as well) female and sexually neuter. But is Tweed (or any member of his gang) really a ``villain''? Tweed is acting quite reasonably by his own lights; it just so happens that the things he is trying to accomplish, and the means necessary to accomplish these ends, are drastically contrary to the laws and prejudices of the Eight Worlds. Tweed also does a number of things (although admittedly for his own purposes) which are quite beneficial to Lilo. So is he really a villain? I think not. This brings up another point regarding Varley's characters and situations, one which I feel is quite important. In my opinion, Varley has managed quite successfully to break away from the hoary old space-opera tradition of the protagonist as hero in brightly shining armor vs. antagonist as villain blacker than deepest space. In many of his stories, including most of his best, the pattern is more along the lines of people being brought together by some circumstance. They meet, events occur, and lives are changed, sometimes for the better, sometimes for worse. It's an entirely different model, which is one reason why he is one of my current favorites. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ From: lmef!damon@topaz.arpa (Damon Scaggs) Subject: Re: Re: FOOTFALL (spoilers) Date: 26 Jul 85 18:12:21 GMT I felt that, over-all, this book was certainly of the same caliber as Mote in Gods Eye (one of my all time favorite books). However, I felt that the ending could have been done a little better. The mini-rebellion against the President left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't understand the need for it. Also, I was left wondering what happened to the people in Birmingham. Last we heard, God wanted an invitation to their party BAD. In general, I thought they played up the Survivalists in the beginning a lot and then did nothing with them later in the book. Other than these few questions (few considering the length of the book), I felt it was well worth reading. There was a fair amount of suspense. I especially liked the difficult decisions the president had to make. Damon Scaggs {ihnp4,akgua}!sol1!lmef!damon ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Date: 25 Jul 85 14:50:37 GMT No, James Branch Cabell didn't write a series of tales set in a bar. You're probably thinking of Arthur C. Clarke. Cabell wrote a series of tales set in the fantasy land of Poictesme, later on following the two families chronicled to Virginia. --Lee Gold ------------------------------ Date: Sun 28 Jul 85 16:33:52-EDT From: Michael Ardai Subject: Stories for Anthology [I am posting this for my brother, who doesn't have access to the net...] Hi everyone. I'm currently compiling an anthology of time travel stories for Tor Books. If you have any personal favorites, I'd love to hear about them; I'm looking for any good material, preferably a little more obscure than H.G.Wells. -- and don't bother to mention anything by Harlan Ellison. I've never read a word of his that I've liked, and I'd just as soon not deal with him. Thanks in advance. P.S.: Does anyone know who wrote "Where Were You Last Pluterday?" I know it was posted already, but I can't remember for the life of me -Charles Ardai ARPANET: UI.Mike@CU20B.ARPA Bitnet: MIAUS @CUVMA Usenet: ...seismo!columbia!cucca!mike USnail:803 Watson Labs, 612 West 115th Street, New York, N.Y. 10025 ------------------------------ From: muffy@lll-crg.ARPA (Muffy Barkocy) Subject: Back to the Future (spoiler) Date: 28 Jul 85 17:15:37 GMT First, since the original Marty, who we are following, goes back to the changed future, I assume that Doc's time machine does not care what time-line it came from, it just translates n years forward or back from its current time. Given this assumption, Marty 1 goes back, changes the future, then returns. We can assume a divergence (or not, but I will) such that there are now two time lines. On the first one, they never see Marty again, since he left that time line and returned on the other one. On the second one, Marty 1 returns, Marty 2 travels back. Now we encounter the problem. Regardless of whatever else happened, the two of them would travel back to approximately the same time and place, if we carry along with the assumption that the time machine does not leave its current time-line. However, since we did *not* see Marty 2 when Marty 1 arrived, it is likely that Doc 2 remembered seeing Marty 1 (the letter, etc) and sent Marty 2 back to some *other* time, realizing that otherwise they would encounter each other. (Or, rather, that he (Doc 2) would run into Marty 1, if he is assuming that he will make the trip back on the second go-round.) Either way, I expect that he would have set the clock for some other date in the past. What happens to Marty 2 at this point is impossible to tell. Probably, each one changes their future, and ends up on time-line n+1. Muffy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 09:56 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: BTTF:Production Design ...a real class act, making the sets a character in the movie. Dr. Brown's 1955 mansion is an architectural classic, the Greene & Greene bungalow in Pasadena. Does anybody know which town they redecorated? (I would have used Watsonville, but that isn't it). ------------------------------ From: becker@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA Subject: music in SF Date: 27 Jul 85 08:11:00 GMT A short story called "The Preserving Machine" by, I believe, Philip K. Dick, concerned two men who wanted to preserve the classics of music through what they felt was the coming fall of civilization. They had a device that would transform a musical score into an animal, which they then released into the nearby woods. The men figured that the music could survive in this way for future generations. Only problem is that the musical animals start to turn wild... Craig Becker ihnp4!uiucdcs!becker ------------------------------ From: hcrvax!jims@topaz.arpa (Jim Sullivan) Subject: Re: SF in music Date: 24 Jul 85 01:53:07 GMT > From: S. C. Colbath > Can anyone tell me what group wrote/performed the song '2525' Damn, I forget the group. But I do have an interesting bit of trivia about the song (Actual title: In The Year 2525). On the day Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon (July 2[012] 1969), that song, In The Year 2525, was the number one hit in America. (This bit of trivia was brought to you via Trivial Pursuit, Second Edition) As for Music and SF, what about Tonio K ? Off the La Bomba EP there is a track called "Mars Needs Women" (See you in the Van Allen Belt) Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger's Series also springs to mind (don't read it) Random Note from a Random Mind Jim Sullivan ------------------------------ From: utflis!chai@topaz.arpa (Henry Chai) Subject: SF music: Platinum Blond Date: 28 Jul 85 04:14:18 GMT Platinum Blond ( a Canadian pop-rock band) has a new album out called "Alien Shores", and I read this in the newspapaer today: "...the second side of the album is reserved for a conceptual suite...which chronicles the passage of a nomadic civilization from one planet to another" Lead singer/idol Mark Holmes remarked that (in the same artcle): "I'm not saying it's about the human race, it's just a theory I've been kicking around about the possible origin of our species" Hmmm, this is possibly the closest to SF some of those screaming teenage girls would get to..... Henry Chai Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 28 Jul 1985 21:51:08-PDT From: francini%argus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (This Space Available for Rent From: or Lease) Subject: Music & sf & HHGTTG... Gern writes that there were 13 HitchHikers Guide To The Galaxy episodes. If so, they have never to my knowledge broadcast the 13th episode here in Boston. I have the first 12 on tape myself, and would be very interested in knowing exactly how many radio episodes REALLY exist. If anyone out there has any information regarding this, please let me know. John Francini DEC: ARGUS::FRANCINI ARPA: Francini@argus.DEC UUCP: ...decvax!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-argus!francini ------------------------------ From: utflis!brown@topaz.arpa (Susan Brown) Subject: Re: Generation Ships Date: 24 Jul 85 19:30:23 GMT kwc@cvl.UUCP (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) writes: > Would anyone on the net who has read some good novels about >ships going on journeys between the stars at sub-light speeds >please send me E-mail with the titles and authors. I have just >finished reading Harlan Ellison > If anyone can take the time to send me some titles and authors >I would really appreciate it. > Kenneth Crist At the risk of being regarded as a Drek-peddler, David Gerrold's "The Galactic Whirlpool" is a star trek story in which a long-adrift colony is located by the Enterprise. It has in effect become a generation ship with drastic results on the inhabitants. I will doubtless get the better of this trade by reading your recommendations. P.S. Sorry- no e-mail. ------------------------------ From: wateng!clelau@topaz.arpa (Eric C.L. Lau) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 25 Jul 85 17:21:07 GMT >From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA >While waiting for a D&D game to start the other night, several of >us were discussing the interface between technology/science and >magic. The only novel we could come up with that really treated >the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one >through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? I think Zelzany wrote another book called _The_Changeling_ about something like this(somebody out there check this). The setting was a parallel universe to our own where magic functions. It was about how two babies got switched between the two universes by a powerful magician. The one from the "magical" universe grows up not quite fitting in the "scientific" universe. The one from the "scientific" universe has the same problem but uses the scientific knowledge that comes naturally to him to attempt to take over his world. Eventually the confrontation is between the two characters and between science and magic. Of course it's been a while since I read it so I can't be sure of author, title or plot. Anybody out there recall a story like this? wateng!clelau ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Cuteness Date: 27 Jul 85 11:51:22 GMT wix%bergil.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >> But the cuteness of anything, even if it does resemble a walking >> teddy-bear, is decidedly limited when it wakes you up, as it did >> Leia, with a sharp spear at a sensitive spot. > > While using a spear to wake someone does cut the cloying sensation > they first give, but the audience reaction during the times that I > watched the movie was at how cute they were with their cute > spears. > > I am not ashamed of the Ewoks I just think the costume design was > purposefully designed to be cute and it distracted me during the > film. Perhaps it was designed to be cute; but I can think of another reason for it. Just what you were saying about feeding the bears in the national parks. A cute menace can be more fearful than an {plain, ugly, what-have-you} one. MUCH so. (Although I would not credit George Lucas & co. with the intelligence to use such a device. Your first guess is probably right.) For more information, read David Gerrold's THE TROUBLE WITH TRIBBLES, an account of the making of teh ST episode of the same name. Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1985 01:56 EDT From: INGRIA%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA Subject: Announcing ReaderCon I have been asked to post this message to the net. I am not involved with organizing it, but I will gladly forward any messages, questions, reactions, etc. to the organizers. Bob (INGRIA@MC) Announcing ReaderCon Are you: o a serious reader (or writer, or publisher) of imaginative fiction? o someone who sees the genre as primarily a form of literature, rather than a type of movie or game? Do you: o like cons? o like the panels and readings at cons? o sometimes feel overwhelmed by the predominance of mediafans at cons? Would you: o like to spend a couple of days with some like-minded company? Then you'll: o love ReaderCon!! We are a new con, just starting to get organized. Giving ourselves ample time to learn, we are aiming at mid-87 for our first show in the Boston-Cambridge area. We are book-oriented and non-media, and our programming, dealer's room, etc. will reflect that orientation. We are serious, but NOT stuffy! We will be having two GOHs per show (Writer and Publisher), and have already selected our first Publisher GOH (Mark Zeising, who just recently brought out the first edition of Gene Wolfe's new novel). We will soon be putting out our first flyer, with more information, prices, etc. If you'd like a copy, send a S.A.S.E. (#10 envelope) to: ReaderCon P.O. Box 6138 Boston, MA 02209 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 2 Aug 85 1101-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #297 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 1101-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #297 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 3 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 297 Today's Topics: Books - Foster & Hubbard & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Generating Fantasy (3 msgs), Films - Mad Max, Music - SF in Music, Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & Generation Ships & Aliens & Why Leave Home? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: SF in music Date: 29 Jul 85 23:09:51 GMT >Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger's Series also springs to mind (don't >read it) Why not? The stories are fairly amusing. (I will read anything at least mildly entertaining rather than watch TV... not that I have a working TV.) Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 13:18 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Scientologists? Does anyone know what Elrond the boss elf's last name was, or what he did in his spare time? I had this nightmare where it was Hubbard and he was creating a legion of elves to stand on street corners recuiting people and I'm afraid to leave my terminal... ------------------------------ From: stuart@webstr.DEC (legibility and comprehensibility are mutually From: exclusive) Subject: any moorcock fans out there? Date: 29 Jul 85 03:55:50 GMT I've just emerged from an extended tour of the works of Michael Moorcock (the two Corum trilogies, the Elric series, and the Castle Brass series), and I found them all quite enjoyable. The story of the 'champion eternal' that bridges across all the various series was one I was quite captivated by, and I especially liked the way that while any individual series dealt with one particular incarnation, fate would, at times (and in what seemed to be to be a very logical manner, at all times consistent with the 'laws' of that particular plane of the multiverse), throw a few of the incarnations from other series into the picture. I'd like very much to read more sf with this feature (bug? :-)) ... can anyone think of what other authors do this, and do it well? *** random pet peeve *** I don't claim to know the book purchasing habits of many people, but personally, if I'm going to read, say, Smith's Lensman series (an example of a series where *all* volumes are in print), I like to buy the whole thing, as opposed to buying it piece by piece. Why, then, do bookstores rarely (in my experience) carry *all* the volumes of a given series? It's like selling single volumes page by page! steve internet 'stuart%webstr.dec@decwrl' ------------------------------ From: cstvax!bobg@topaz.arpa (Bob Gray ERCC) Subject: Re: Music in SF Date: 2 Aug 85 17:46:41 GMT >From: Douglas M. Olson > its called "The Time of the Hawklords" and was written >with Michael Butterworth, C. 1976. This was the first volume in a planned trilogy. The second volume was published in 197{8,9} written by Moorcock on his own. It was called something like "The Queen of delerium". I have never heard of the third volume in the series. Does anyone out there know if it was ever published? Nine years is a long time to wait to find out what happens after the setting up for the sequel done in vol 2. BTW. I haven't seen any mention of the double album of H.G. Wells' "War of the Worlds" from about 1980 mentioned in this category. Bob Gray ERCC. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? Date: 27 Jul 85 17:08:12 GMT >I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if >anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were >derived from actual games. No books, but I know of a film that a D&D fan I know assures me could have been written only in this way. It was a made for TV film that ran only once as far as I know. It is called THE ARCHER. It had a long complex stringlike plot. I kind of enjoyed it, but I never have found anyone else who thought much of it. One of the major problems is that it was not constructed like a story should be with a beginning, a middle, and an end. It was more like just a string of fantasy incidents. It did have a final confrontation, but not a very satisfying one. Till now the only way to generate a book has been to sit at a keyboard and think and plan, at least in my opinion. Philip K. Dick supposedly decided MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE's plot twists with the I Ching. I never cared for the novel, though others seem to like it. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 08:38 PDT From: piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? Of course, the 'DragonLance' books were based on a D&D campaign. The afterword of 'Liavek' suggests that Liavek, SKZB'z Dragaera, Patricia Wrede's Lyra, and one other that slips my mind were all part of one massive multi-universe campaign. Given the quality of these books, I would say that fantasy campaigns are quite useable as background for fantastic fiction. Kurt ------------------------------ From: aluxz!cws@topaz.arpa (SPIVAK) Subject: Re: a way to generate fantasy Date: 28 Jul 85 03:05:45 GMT brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if >anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were >derived from actual games. ... Aside from those examples that have already have been mentioned, I seem to remember bits and pieces here and there in many recent fantasy novels which show that their authors are steeped in D&D conventions. At first I kind of liked it (it's certainly fun to look for it): now, it strikes me as yet another overworked and sterile construct. I know what brendan means, but situations which must have been exciting in the game context somehow show up as rather flat on paper. My guess is that the highly structured set of rules which makes for a good game makes for an overly predictable story. I wish they'd stop. Carolyn Spivak ------------------------------ From: mtuxn!rubin@topaz.arpa (M.RUBIN) Subject: "Mad Max 3" homage to "Dune"? [slight spoiler] Date: 29 Jul 85 22:07:01 GMT Look at the very last shot in "Mad Max 3", of Max climbing up the sand dune into the sunset. Doesn't he look a whole lot like a Fremen? Gag me with a wombat, but I'd swear that's a Maker hook he's carrying.... Mike Rubin {ihnp4, rest of AT&T}!mtuxn!newtech!rubin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 85 13:12 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Music is SF... Don't forget those hard rocking scientists, the Hong Kong Cavaliers! We really need another Buckaroo Banzai movie before I go *completely* insane. ------------------------------ From: luke!itkin@topaz.arpa (Steven List) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 29 Jul 85 00:53:19 GMT I missed the original question, but have seen it quoted. The question seems to be about stories combining magic and technology. At the hightech end are Keith Laumer's Lafayette O'Leary books. Slightly lower tech, but perhaps better reading are Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame books. These also include alternate universes, D&D, and a lot of fun. Taken to a slight tangent are Jack L. Chalker's Soul Rider books. The magic turns out not to be real magic, but they don't know it! Steven List @ Benetics Corporation, Mt. View, CA {cdp,greipa,idi,oliveb,sun,tolerant}!bene!luke!itkin ------------------------------ From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Generation Ship List Date: 29 Jul 85 14:45:52 GMT Here is the list of books about Generation ships I have gathered from the titles people have sent me. Thank you every one who responded to my request. Orphans of the Sky received the most recommendations with twelve. Title Author Starship (also called Nonstop) Brian Aldiss Tau Zero Poul Anderson Across a Sea of Sun Greg Bender Exiled from Earth Ben Bova Flight of Exiles Ben Bova End of Exile Ben Bova Phoenix Without Ashes Edward Bryant & Harlan Ellison The Ballad of Beta-2 Samuel Delaney Flight of the Dragonfly Robert Forward The Galactic Whirlpool David Gerrold Worlds Joe Haldeman Worlds Apart Joe Haldeman Captive Universe Harry Harrison Orphans of the Sky Robert Heinlein Universe Robert Heinlein Voyage from Yesteryear James Hogan Mayflies Kevin O'Donnell, Jr. Rite of Passage Alexis Panshin Marathon D. Alexander Smith A Momentary Taste of Being James Triptree, Jr. Starburst Jack Williamson Dragon's Egg Invaders The Queen of Air and Darkness The Whorthing Chronicle Kenneth Crist kwc@cvl Computer Vision Lab University of Maryland ------------------------------ Date: 28 Jul 1985 14:25:33-EDT (Sunday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Why would 'they' come to Earth I saw the following article on why Aliens would want to visit Earth, so I figured I would contribute it to the discussion. THE ALIENS ARE COMING, THE ALIENS ARE COMING! -Dave Barry I don't want to alarm anybody, but there is an excellent chance that the Earth will be destroyed in the next several days. Congress is thinking about eliminating a federal program under which scientists broadcast signals to alien beings. This would be a large mistake. Alien beings have nuclear blaster death cannons. You cannot cut off their federal programs as if they were merely poor people. I realize some of you may not believe that alien beings exist. But how else can you explain the many unexplained phenomena that people are always sighting, such as lightning and flying saucers? Oh, I know the authorities claim these sightings are actually caused by "weather balloons," but that is a bucket of manure if I ever heard one. (That's just a figure of speech, of course. I realize manure is silent.) Answer this question honestly: Have you, or has any member of your immediate family, ever seen a weather balloon? Of course not. Nobody has. Yet if these "authorities" were telling the truth, the skies over America would be dark with weather balloons. Commercial aviation would be impossible. Nevertheless, the authorities trot out this tired old explanation, or an even stupider one, every time a flying saucer is sighted. Wake up, America! There are no weather balloons! Those are alien beings! They are all around us! I'm sure most of you have seen the movie "E.T.", the story of an alien who almost dies when he falls into the clutches of the American medical establishment but is saved by pre-adolescent boys. Everybody believes the alien is a fake, a triumph of special effects. But watch the movie closely next time. The alien is real. The boys are fakes. Real pre-adolescent boys would have beaten the alien to death with rocks. Yes, aliens exist and high government officials know they exist, but they've been keeping this knowledge top secret. Here is the Untold Story: Years ago, when the alien-broadcast program began, government scientists decided to broadcast a message that would be simple yet convey a sense of love, universal peace and brotherhood: "Have a Nice Day." They broadcast this message over and over, day after day, year after year, until one day they got an answer: Dear Earth Persons: OK. We are having a nice day. We also have a number of extremely sophisticated weapons, and unless you start broadcasting something more interesting, we will reduce your planet to a very warm object the size of a child's bowling ball. Regards, The Aliens So the scientists, desperate for something that would interest the aliens, broadcast an episode of "I Love Lucy", and the aliens loved it. They demanded more, and soon they were getting all three major networks, and the Earth was saved. There is only one problem: THE ALIENS HAVE TERRIBLE TASTE. They love game shows, soap operas, Howard Cosell and "Dallas." Whenever a network tries to take one of these shows off the air, the aliens threaten to vaporize the planet. This is why you and all your friends think television is so awful. It isn't designed to please you --it's designed to please creatures from another galaxy. You know the Wisk commercial, the one with ring around the collar, the one so spectacularly stupid that it makes you wonder why anybody would dream of buying the product? Well, the aliens love that commercial. We all owe a great debt of gratitude to the people who make Wisk. They have not sold a single bottle of Wisk in 14 years, but they have saved the Earth. Very few people know any of this. Needless to say, Congress has no idea what is going on. Most legislators are incapable of eating breakfast without the help of several aides, so we can hardly expect them to understand a serious threat from outer space. But if they go ahead with their plan to cancel the alien-broadcast program and the aliens miss the next episode of "General Hospital," What do you think will happen? Think about it. And have a nice day. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 29 Jul 85 09:58:31-PDT From: Ron Cain Subject: Why Leave Home At All? The title of Jon Pugh's message "Why Leave Home At All" is exactly the question I throw back into the ring. The tone of his message is one I have heard before (and may once have believed myself) but one which I find increasingly astonishing and a bit annoying. His premise is best summarized in his closing paragraph: > So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt. If > Mankind is to survive, we must take to the stars. There is > nowhere else to go. It may be viewed as running from one problem > into another, but it is the only choice, aside from racial > suicide. Does anyone want to be a dinosaur? Petty ball of dirt? Please read Lewis Thomas's "Lives of the Cell" for an outlook which might dilute those sentiments. The view that we must cut our losses, count the Earth as a "throw-away", and get off planet as soon as possible to insure our racial survival is an attitude that I would not want to see propagated into space had I the power to stop it. If we can't make it work on this petty ball of dirt, folks, it's not going to be any easier on another dirt clod around some other star or in some RingWorld. When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate all the people we already have (why talk about racial survival if the ones alive right now are not counted priceless?) and can establish a homeostasis on this ball of dirt so that it is a stable place -- then, and only then would I say we had earned the right to leave. Ron Cain cain@sri-ai ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 1144-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #298 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 3 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 298 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Moorcock & Myers & Tall Tales in a Bar Stories (3 msgs) & Generating Fantasy, Films - Sexism & Back to the Future & The Black Cauldron, Music - Music and SF (5 msgs), Miscellaneous - 1985 vs 1955 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: shark!terrys@topaz.arpa (Terry Sullins) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s)(Operation Chaos) Date: 29 Jul 85 19:54:24 GMT >> OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? (I have forgotten again, even though it >> was a fantastic book. Any help?) > Drat, I can't remember either! I think it is either John Brunner > or Gordon Dixon ... Operation Chaos by Poul Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 19:29:18 PDT From: Will Duquette Subject: Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind The connection between Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind has been mentioned quite often in the last few weeks, up to who commented that Moorcock had written a book about the band entitled _Time of the Hawklords_. I do believe that Moorcock actually "created" the band in his books about Jerry Cornelius, the elusive, needlegun-toting anti-hero who is *** SLIGHT SPOILER *** actually a punk kid from London. In _The Condition of Muzak_, at any rate, and perhaps even in _The English Assassin_, Jerry is a member of the bank Hawkwind. So far as I know, the *real* band got their inspiration from this. Anybody know for sure? Will Duquette ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 19:38:11 PDT From: Will Duquette Subject: RE: SF and MUSIC This is really fantasy and music, but what the heck. John Myers Myers (author of _Silverlock_, a true gem of a book) has also written a novel entitled _The Harp and the Blade_, which I believe is just out in mass market form. The novel concerns a Bard, who's name I forget, and is actually a fairly straightforward tale set in a strife-torn medieval Europe. The tie in with music is that some of the songs the Bard has written are contained in the book. No music, just lyrics, but they're plenty much fun. After reading one of the Bard's tirades, one understands why people didn't like to get Bard's mad at them.... Will Duquette ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 30 Jul 1985 11:39:48-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: Tall Tales in a Bar Stories... A few recent messages briefly mentioned the "tall tales in a bar" subgenre. I assume this is sub- to SF, but I have trouble characterizing the subgenre. Would anyone care to describe their idea of what a "bar" tale is? Perhaps a few more references to authors would help: Clarke, Cabell, and Lord Dunsany have already been mentioned. Is this strictly a type of short story? ------------------------------ From: spar!freeman@topaz.arpa (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Date: 29 Jul 85 07:25:33 GMT barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) writes: >No, James Branch Cabell didn't write a series of tales set in a >bar. You're probably thinking of Arthur C. Clarke. Nope, I am well aware of the _White_Hart_ and am sure there was a precursor in a SFnal or fantasy vein. If not Cabell, then someone else. But who?? Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ From: sun!jsc@topaz.arpa (James Carrington) Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Date: 29 Jul 85 17:21:15 GMT Spider Robinson has written several short stories set in "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" (the title of one of the anthologys). They are not precursors to Clarke, however -- they're pretty recent. James Carrington SUN Microsystems Associate Engineer 2550 Garcia Ave. MS1-40 Workstation Division Mountain View CA 94043 Networking Department 415-960-7438 ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? Date: 29 Jul 85 14:52:03 GMT >From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA >I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if >anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were >derived from actual games. Steven Brust can correct me if I'm wrong, but from the afterword to Liavek (edited by Emma Bull and Will Shetterley), it seems apparent that many books coming from Brust's circle of writers are derived/influenced/whatever by role-playing campaigns those people played. In particular, it is suggested that the worlds of Liavek, the Vlad Taltos books (Jhereg and Yendi, by Brust), Cats Have No Lord (by Shetterley), and Shadow Magic (by Patricia Wrede) were all settings for these fantasy campaigns. Some of the characters in such books were role-played by members of this group, although most book characters are naturally authorial creations. Also, I suspect that it's hard to set the order of cause and effect here. The writers may well have created their worlds already and were in the process of writing stories in those worlds when the role-playing began. As a GM, it would be much easier (and maybe more interesting) to set a campaign in a world that was already on your mind than to create one from whole cloth. However, I'm sure that the game influenced the writing (and vice versa). Comment, SKZB? Have I misinterpreted the situation? Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Sexism in movies and SF westerns Date: 29 Jul 85 20:56:26 GMT > movie in the not to[o] distant past about a guy on a motorcycle > who somehow got sent back to the Wild West? It was TIMERIDER. > This lack of strong, non-ster[e]otypical female characters is not > just Spielberg's disease. Everything that I have said about > sexism may also be applied to racism and nationalism. [Mentions > of OUTLAND, ALIEN, 2010.] I can only think of one black in a > semi-lead role and that was in Ice Pirates. Minority leads who > are leads for reasons other than their sex and the opportunity for > the white male lead to show off are rare and devoutly to be > desired. Many lead roles in science fiction movies could be > played by anyone regardless race or sex. I just heard an interview with George Romero in which he was asked about his casting of blacks and non-WASPish types (along with females) in major roles in his films. Certainly NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD had a strong black character (whose role had nothing to do with his blackness--in fact the part was written before the actor was even chosen). Also DAWN OF THE DEAD. Also presumably DAY OF THE DEAD (which I haven't seen yet). The characters in MARTIN are white, but not your standard WASPs. KNIGHTRIDERS had a fairly strong black character (as well as a gay and a woman--that's three different characters, in case that's not clear). HUNGRY WIVES had mostly female characters, but I can't remember enough of the characterization. The casting in CREEPSHOW was dictated mostly by people other than Romero. Another example: Gregory Hines played a strong character (who wasn't written as "black") in THE WOLFEN. I suspect there are other lesser-known film-makers who don't worry about having "Hollywood types" in the lead roles of their films. (Unfortunately, my mind draws a blank right now.) Certainly a studio that spends $20 million will want to "play it safe" to make sure they make it all back. But right now, they're probably playing it too safe. Partly the problem is Hollywood's feeling that there must be a love interest in every film (something that the director character in the 1933 KING KONG complained about!) and, with few exceptions, they won't risk an inter-racial love story. (When they do, *it's* the plot!) They could easily put someone like Harold Rollins in just about any "leading-man" role (he's certainly as sexy as Mel Gibson!), but they don't dare show him in a love interest with a white woman, and they don't want an "all-black" cast. So he's type-cast as a "black man". Oh well, maybe someday Hollywood will learn. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: morris@Shasta.ARPA Subject: Re: Back to the Future (spoiler) Date: 29 Jul 85 20:54:03 GMT I've got it! Marty 2 goes back to some other time. But he won't have the plutonium to get back to '85, so he's stuck in the past. The alternative is that he *doesn't* go back in time at all, he goes forward. Why would Doc want to go back in time, since he knew that his '55 self sees Marty anyway? No, Doc would be planning to go to the future, so Marty 2 never goes back in time Does anyone really care about this? Kathy Morris (.. ucbvax!Glacier!diablo!morris, decvax!decwrl!Glacier!diablo!morris morris@diablo.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue Jul 30 10:29:39 1985 From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson) Subject: re: BLACK CAULDRON review A couple of minor errors appeared in the review. Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain Cycle" consists of five books, not four: THE BOOK OF THREE, THE BLACK CAULDRON, THE CASTLE OF LLYR, TARAN WANDERER, and THE HIGH KING (the latter won the Newberry Award for best children's book in whatever year it appeared). The film "The Black Cauldron" has never purported to be based on all five books, but only the first two. While I thought the Horned King looked delightfully nasty, I was rather disappointed because (if I remember right from the books) the Horned King was merely an ambitious evil king who wore a deer skull with antlers, hence his name. ------------------------------ From: simpson@lll-crg.ARPA (Rea Simpson) Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 29 Jul 85 05:12:26 GMT jeand@ihlpg.UUCP (AMBAR) writes: >How about the song with the refrain > > ...A lesson to be learned > Traveling twice the speed of sound > It's easy to get burned. > >Or has this already been mentioned? (I'm not sure that I would >recognize the title.) This is from a Crosby, Stills and Nash song. I don't know the title but it's on the CSN (I think this is the name) album. Rea Simpson Lawrence Livermore Labs L-306 P.O. Box 808 Livermore, CA 94550 (415) 423-0910 {dual, gymble, sun, mordor}!lll-crg!simpson simpson@lll-crg.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 29 Jul 85 09:42:00 PDT (Monday) Subject: Re: Music 'n SF From: Peter Alfke >[Brian May] is however a big fan of SF (as is Roger Taylor - Queens >drummer) as witnessed on the "News of the World" cover and Roger >Taylors "Fun in Space" album (and cover). Of course! I have only a marginal liking for Queen, but I found "Fun In Space" a great album. Unfortunately, I haven't heard it in years, so I can only remember the title song as having an SF theme. Also: Wilson & Shea's "Illuminatus!" trilogy had rather a lot of (rock) music in it -- the climax takes place at an enormous rock festival on the shores of Lake Totenkopf in Ingolstadt, Bavaria, where the hypnotic sounds emitted by one of the bands (I forget which -- at the start of the third book there's a *three-page* listing of all the bands attending) will raise battalions of dead Nazi soldiers from the bottom of the lake. Incidentally, I recommend very highly the three-page listing to any group (esp. neo-sixties) searching for a name. The list had me rolling on the floor, laughing my @$$ off... --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ From: ptsfa!kmo@topaz.arpa (ken olsen) Subject: Music and SF. Date: 29 Jul 85 20:26:28 GMT There is an album from about '78 or '79 by Patrick Wayne et. al. called "The War of the Worlds". It's much like Wakeman's "Journey to the Centre of the Earth", with narration and music interspersed. It's a double album and is quite good. {amd70,cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,ihnp4,ucbvax,zehntel}!dual!ptsfa!kmo ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 85 08:18:47 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: SF in music.... From: GarrettK.DlosLV@Xerox.ARPA From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA(Jeff Rogers) >Another excellent album ... "Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of 'The >War of the Worlds.'" I first heard this at college. The planetarium put on a laser light show on Halloween using this album. I really enjoyed "Forever Autumn" which is on the album and is more of a love song than a sf-song. I acquired the album a few years later. I recall seeing it around in some of the stores Dallas, but I think in one that specializes in old records. It is a great album and worth the effort of tracking down. The new Supertramp album "Brother Where You Bound" has some sf overtones as well. The title cut starts out with a lecture from O'Brian to Winston Smith on the way things are and some of the other songs flow along the same idea. By the way, does anyone know where they got the recording of O'Brian and Winston? Was there a movie based on 1984? The conversation sounds old(or was made to sound that way), but the album doesn't list credit for it. Kathie Garrett (GarrettK.DlosLV@Xerox.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: crystal!brewster@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Science Fiction References in Music Date: 30 Jul 85 16:12:23 GMT > How about the song with the refrain > > ...A lesson to be learned > Traveling twice the speed of sound > It's easy to get burned. The Concorde DOES travel at twice the speed of sound at upper altitudes. I always thought that was what CSN were referring to, since much of the song is about leaving someone at an airport. Why is that Science FICTION? ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Future" - 1985 vs 1955 Date: 30 Jul 85 04:00:24 GMT ofut@gitpyr.UUCP (Jeff Offutt) writes: >> What things about 1985 would be most suprising to someone from >> 1955? >One of the most surprising thing would be the continuation of the >Cold War. Quite a chilling thought, eh? Something that is briefly referred to in the movie. >To a science fiction fan, the lack of meaningful space exploration >would be disapointing. To others, the space exploration we have >done would be amazing. One thing that's evident about fiction about space exploration is that authors have almost always overestimated how much energy would be available. No one appreciated, until fairly recently, that a) fission is a pain and that b) fusion is VERY difficult. Nobody guessed how much mileage we would (literally) get from gravity except Clarke (_2001_, for instance). I think a BIG suprise would be how weird the solar system has turned out to be. Nobody expected Io! >As far as the electronics go, I think the average person would >expect something along those lines -- though perhaps not quite what >we do have. In many respects, yes. The ubiquity of calculators and computers would be suprising, though; people were leaning towards a wired world, with big central computers. One thing that would be very suprising: the fact that technology has acquired a definite proletarian tinge. Think of wood vs. plastic, organic foods, cotton vs. polyester.... Charley Wingate ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 1401-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #299 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 3 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 299 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Daley & Feist (2 msgs) & Tepper & Bar Stories (2 msgs) & Generating Fantasy & Request for Reveiws, Films - Back to the Future, Music - SF and Music (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & Ewoks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 85 13:08 EDT From: Jonathan Ostrowsky Subject: HHGttG scripts on the way Publishers Weekly reports that Harmony Books is going to publish Douglas Adams's original scripts from the BBC's radio broadcasts of the HHGttG. The book will include a new introduction by Adams. It will be published in December, and sell for $9.95. ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Book Review:The Starfollowers of Coramonde Date: 30 Jul 85 21:54:35 GMT Excellent reading recommended to those readers of fantasy who like a smooth novel opposed to the Lieber/de Camp hack and slash humor stories. This book is the sequel to The Doomfarers of Coramonde which I reviewed earlier this summer. It was nice to find that the second effort by Daley was better than his first, which was good too. This book has the stuff that every writer could turn green over in jealousy. Daley has cleverly incorporated major ingredient themes of fantasy into his on world/dimension. We have: 1) Every type of hero, well described with a characterization that is easily assimilated 2) Artifacts: which include a sword like Stormbringer, a staff, much like Donaldson's Staff of Law (and suspiciously arising from the "Lifetree"), items that call on the user's lifeforce (like the staff in the Dilvish the Damned novel), and more if you look. 3) We've got the geography (map not included though). 4) Wars between demons & deities with malign sorcerers battling wizards on the "right" side (sorry, no pun intended). 5) There are a few enhancements to fantasy here too. I define a fantasy "enhancement" as a writer's contribution to a topic of fantasy which does not contradict previous writer's and adds a new facet of approach and viewpoint to the subject in question. 6) Armies and battles galore. That's all I'm going to say; the book is very worthwhile but you've got to trudge through it's predecessor first. I have also just finished the Black Company by Glen Cook, and since I've missed the previous discussion I won't be redundant and review it, but, I will recommend it- it is very enjoyable reading. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ From: mtuxn!rubin@topaz.arpa (M.RUBIN) Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? ("Magician"-slight spoiler) Date: 31 Jul 85 01:58:48 GMT "Magician" by Raymond Feist is taken from his game world Midkemia. All 600+ pages of it, with sequels to come. The writing is pretty good and the action well paced, though unoriginal. The book is dedicated to, among others, "the Friday Nighters" whom I assume to be his players; among these is one David Brin (yup, THAT David Brin; the jacket blurb says the author lives in San Diego). Brin also makes a cameo appearance as a horse trader. ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? ("Magician"-slight spoiler) Date: 31 Jul 85 18:32:31 GMT Raymod E. Feist was in fact an frp game designer in fact. I read magician (must have been 5-6 years ago) in hardcover and I've been unable to find it in paperback, anybody know anything about this? Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: Mavin Manyshaped Date: 30 Jul 85 21:39:46 GMT throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: > I just bought and read the second of the Mavin Manyshaped novels. > Recommended. Sherri Tepper has a way of phrasing moral problems > that is elegant and pleasing. In the first book, it was > explaining rape to a young boy. In this one, it is an exposition > of the victim/perpetrator rights problem. All of this, and a > "hard fantasy" adventure story too. I do not recommend the second book to Tepper's saga of Mavin Manyshaped. While the True Game Series is excellent- and the first book interesting since it provides the story behind the legend we only encounter briefly in her series the second book is filled with baby talk type stuff, which I found annoying. Also, the plot is evident from the beginning of the book and is not terribly exciting, whereas in the first Mavin Manyshaped novel Tepper still gave us some insight into the cunning of a shapeshifter. > Has anybody read "The Revenants"? Is it as worthwhile as the True > Game series? While it doesn't really compare with the true game series it is still a worthwhile reading. It is one of those macabre type books that is intentionally confusing and mind warping as it deals heavily with Deities and artifacts. I recommend it for Tepper fans. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ps- sorry about my Silverberg/Rosenberg mix up everybody... ------------------------------ From: ihuxi!okie@topaz.arpa (Cobb) Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Stories... Date: 31 Jul 85 17:29:02 GMT > From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) > A few recent messages briefly mentioned the "tall tales in a bar" > subgenre. ...Perhaps a few more references to authors would help: > Clarke, Cabell, and Lord Dunsany have already been mentioned... Another author that comes to mind is Larry Niven. He has a whole series of short stories that take place in a bar, informally known as the "Draco Tavern" series. They tend to revolve around a non-human race known as the chirpsithra, who say things that most sentient races find hard to believe... and which just might be true. Amusing stories. You can find them in two books, "Convergent Series" and "Limits." B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie ------------------------------ From: pedsgd!bobh@topaz.arpa (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Stories... Date: 31 Jul 85 14:44:27 GMT marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >A few recent messages briefly mentioned the "tall tales in a bar" >subgenre. I assume this is sub- to SF, but I have trouble >characterizing the subgenre. Would anyone care to describe their >idea of what a "bar" tale is? Perhaps a few more references to >authors would help: Clarke, Cabell, and Lord Dunsany have already >been mentioned. Is this strictly a type of short story? I am not sure if they fall into the category, but Spider Robinson has done stories in "Callahan's Saloon" for years. Collections are "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon" and "Time Travelers Pay Cash". Bob Halloran Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG UUCP: {ihnp4, decvax, ucbvax}!vax135!petsd!pedsgd!bobh USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724 DDD: (201) 758-7000 ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? Date: 30 Jul 85 10:39:22 GMT >From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA >I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if >anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were >derived from actual games. What I mean by this is that the >characters (players) keep 'journals' which are then compiled into >(semi?)coherent form and published as a novel/short story. I have >often thought that some of the 'adventures' I have had would make >pretty good reading (but alas, I am no writer). I am not sure whether this counts but Joel Rosenberg has been doing a series called "Guardians of the Flame" which has three books out and more to come. It isn't strictly an account of a game they played but more a case of the translation of the players into the game. Seems disjoint and strange enough that it just might be an actual game they're playing. Takes him that long to get a new one out, too... Anyway, I wonder about how good a D&D game COULD be as a story, considering that they tend to look like bad comic-books when recorded. (Yes, I do play frp games, and yes, I do record them in writing, and BOY are they lousy as literature) Hutch ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Request for reviews Date: 31 Jul 85 21:04:00 GMT Has anyone read any of the following? TOM O'BEDLAM by Robert Silverberg; R. A. MacAvoy's THE BOOK OF KELLS; LIAVEK, edited by Will Slatterly and somebody else; THE CONTINENT OF LIES by William (?) Morrow. Comments would be appreciated. Short reviews would be *greatly* appreciated. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: BTTF:Production Design Date: 30 Jul 85 22:10:37 GMT Boebert.SCOMP@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >Does anybody know which town they redecorated? I hate to tell you this, but the downtown area in BACK TO THE FUTURE looked a lot like the generic downtown in the Universal studios lot. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 09:08 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: sf music, music in sf, and Operation Chaos author > Robinson: Many of his "crosstime saloon" stories use music - > "Wolfstroker" and the one about Bobbi Joy (is this > Also, I remember a couple of very good short stories about >music/art, but don't remember who wrote them: a wonderful story >about a woman who teaches a forest to play classical music (what is >this? I NEED to know!), and an interesting one in analog a year or Robinson didn't write "Wolfstroker". Alan Dean Foster did. Foster also wrote the story about the woman who taught the trees to play classical music. I don't remember the title but both stories are in his short story collection called "With Friends Like These..." and are highly recommened! >My favorite science fiction album is a two-disc version of H.G. >Wells' War of the Worlds (titled War of the Worlds) with Richard >Burton doing narration. Justin Hayward and David Essex are among >the artists. There is a riveting piece titled Thunderchild and >another called The Spirit of Man. The Martian's theme is >appropriatly menacing. While I don't want to spoil the story I >will say that playing the album is a Halloween tradition and is the >focus of our "Find A Three-Day Weekend for August" movement. I was just about to post a recommendation of this album when I ran across this posting. Let me just add that this is one of my five favorite albums - I never tire of listening to it! If you like this, there's also an excellent chance you'll like Mike Oldfield (Mike is best knows as the author of Tubular Bells, part of which was used as the theme to the movie The Exorcist - his music isn't necessarily SF related, but he's my favorite composer and I thought this was an excellent opportunity to put in a plug for him). Oh yes, War of the Worlds was recently re-released so you should be able to find a copy somewhere (I have two - kept in seperate locations in case of disaster). Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner) Subject: Re: SF in music Date: 31 Jul 85 00:55:39 GMT I don't remember if anyone has mentioned these songs in this raging discussion or not (the memory is the first thing to go...I think...I really can't recall...), but how about: Kashmir -- Led Zep ("I am a traveller of both time and space...") Starship Trooper -- Yes Some of the songs on "A" (Jethro Tull) I, Robot -- Alan Parsons (well, come on, the *title* is sf, after all! (-: ) I think someone already mentioned "Time" by ELO; and I was happy to see that I wasn't the only one to have bought the (excellent) Planet P album! I was beginning to think I was! Roy Turner School of Information and Computer Science Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt ------------------------------ From: wateng!clelau@topaz.arpa (Eric C.L. Lau) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 30 Jul 85 02:01:57 GMT >> the interface between technology/science and magic. The only >> novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence >> of the two, was OPERATION CHAOS by ???? >> Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar >> vein. ... I'm thinking more of a situation where the two >> normally coexist.) >Can anyone tell us about THE PRACTICE EFFECT by David Brin? It >sounds as if it might fit the description, but i haven't read it >yet. _The_Practice_Effect is more about a world where magic is scientifically possible than one where magic and science co-exist. Any more than that would reveal the plot of the story, sorry. Even though it doesn't fit your description it's a good book anyway. Eric Lau ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 85 00:46:04 EDT From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Ewoks and NutraSweet My main reason for despising the Ewoks with every fiber of my being is that by rights, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN WOOKIES! George Lucas had originally planned that the moon (Endor? memory fails) be the native planet of the Wookies. This was even stated in that TV Christmas special they did in '78 or '79. So why the change? Why ditch the Wookies? The same reason that the Ewoks were made abominably cute: marketing. Lucas & co. felt that the Wookies (because of Chewbacca) had an image of being a civilized, spacefareing, technological people. They thought the Masses would object to being told that Chewie was an exception, that most Wookies were primative tribals. So, they changed them. The first design of the Ewoks was a very tall, thin, hairy critter. Because this looked too much like a Wookie, they made them very short, and eventually arrived at the saccharine teddy-bear (some of the preliminary drawings looked a lot like the elfish creatures from the Dark Crystal). Lucas said that they also had been a little worried about Vader. They thought people would object to there being anything Human under the mask at all (thank The Force it didn't go that far!) Another interesting point... Remember the orthinoper that the Ewoks used against the Imperials? It was supposed to be a bird, but the Dreaded Deadline prevented them from getting a good looking critter... um...off the ground, so they made it mechanical. My source for all this is one of those "Making of..." TV shows. Lots of interviews with Lucas and the people at ILM. (I think it was "Making of the Star Wars Trilogy," but it may have been "Making of Return of the Jedi"). ---Jamie (jwz@cmu-cs-spice) P.S.: Anyone know when/if the next movie is going to be released/begun? The Original Plan called for nine, but I haven't heard anything about SW#4 (episode 1) except that if released at all, it will deal with the Clone Wars. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 1430-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #300 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 4 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 300 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Footfall, Miscellaneous - Generation Ships & Cuteness & Star Wars Cartoons & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: MEDEA: HARLAN'S WORLD, edited by Harlan Ellison, 1985 Date: 31 Jul 85 21:20:55 GMT This is something that's been tried before: several SF writers writing stories set in the same world. Ellison mentions Fletcher Platt's THE PETRIFIED PLANET, and A WORLD NAMED CLEOPATRA, edited by Roger Elwood; the success of the THIEVE'S WORLD books has spawned other such fantasy anthologies. It's been done before, but it's done well here. Hal Clement, Poul Anderson, Larry Niven, and Fredrick Pohl wrote some basic specifications, Kelly Freas painted a pretty picture (enclosed in the Bantam/Spectrum trade paperback; and used as the dust jacket of the hard cover); Thomas Disch, Frank Herbert, Robert Silverberg, and Theodore Sturgeon brainstormed other possibilities, under Ellison's loose moderation, to an enthusiastic UCLA extension seminar. Then the nine writers above, plus Jack Williamson and Kate Wilhelm, write eleven stories of the planet. So Medea has four suns and a superjovian to heat it, East and West poles, foxes that cast off pairs of legs to give birth, sentient balloons, and a patchwork of ecological niches. Similarly, MEDEA has eleven different stories. Some are about the "fuxes", some about the "balloons", some about the weather. Some are about the humans on Medea (and Earth). And some are first and foremost about ideas. Such an eclectic collection has at least one story you won't be too fond of, but it'll be a different story for different readers. This much variety also means you're likely to find at least one story you'll like, and probably one you'll like quite a bit. Will it be Niven's "Flare Time", when both the Medean ecology and the human settlement are changed by life-as-they-don't-usually-know it? Or maybe Theodore Sturgeon's tale (one of the last before he died, dammit) "Why Dolphin's Don't Bite", of what it takes for one culture to accept another. Frank Herbert has a story of Ship, with his typical "I know you know I think you feel I'm lying" games; but "Songs of a Sentient Flute" is very much a Medea tale. These stories aren't parts of a single tale, they're not necessarily set in chronological order, and they're not all externally consistent. What they are is good stories by good writers. Themes and tricks aside, isn't that what it's all about? Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: any moorcock fans out there? Date: 30 Jul 85 14:19:31 GMT The concept of the Eternal Champion shows up in a lot of unusual places. Moorcock almost certainly plucked his from Edgar Rice Burroughs' John Carter of Mars series. (Is anyone surprised? Close to the start of the first John Carter book, Carter searches his memory and can remember taking part in wars 200 years earlier; he cannot, however, remember being born, nor going for any length of time when he was not fighting some war. He had the impression that he had fought in "some very strange places".) Moorcock's first published writing was a trilogy of Martian stories that are HIGHLY reminiscent of the John Carter series. Other Eternal Champion stuff: Adrienne Martine-Barnes wrote a so-so novel entitled "The Dragon Rises" in which the Dragon was clearly a duplicate of the Eternal Champion. The gist of the story is that there are a few souls (known by animal names) who are constantly summoned from another "plane" to earth in order to buy off some bad karma those souls picked up somehow. The Dragon is the war-like one who must eventually find peace...although it's not as bad as that makes it sound. I'm just now reading The Summer Tree, an unremarkable book by Guy Gavriel Kay (for University of Toronto students out there, you might be pleased that the protagonists are five U. of T. students). Just a chapter ago, the author suggested that they would eventually meet the Eternal Champion so maybe it will turn out to be a little interesting after all. By the way, once you have read sufficient heroic fantasy by Moorcock, you are ready to read the Dancers at the End of Time trilogy in which he mercilessly rips all his other books to comic shreds. The hero is the Eternal Champion again, but this time gone to decadence and being shamelessly manipulated by yet another incarnation of the Eternal Champion. Lots of giggles, especially for those who can catch the multitude of snide references to Moorcock's other work. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind Date: 31 Jul 85 18:40:09 GMT > From: Will Duquette > The connection between Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind has been > mentioned quite often in the last few weeks, up to > who commented that Moorcock had written a book about the band > entitled _Time of the Hawklords_. In the most recent Elric book (Elric at the End of Time?) Moorcock tells in his forward that he modeled Elric after himself at a particularly depressing stage in his life/career. The contrasts between Britain and Melnibone/Granbretan are evident. In the discussions of Zelazny characters some people stated, and I agree, that all of the star characters are actually rather similar bravados. I think that this is basically true of Moorcock as well, despite the guise that all his heroes are really the same anyway, as different forms of the eternal champion, sidekick, vilain, birdshit, or whatever (for those who wish to flame me for this criticism just read the Castle Brass series first). Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ps- don't get me wrong, the Elric saga is a personal favorite... ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: FOOTFALL, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, 1985 Date: 31 Jul 85 21:11:49 GMT (The usual caveats: Jerry Pournelle is an acquaintance of mine. We've exchanged letters, he's bought me some drinks, and it's conceivable that the character "Brant Chisholm" got his name from mine.) (Second caveat: nowhere on the cover do the words "science fiction" appear. This is a mainstream novel by two SF writers, with an SF plot. Whatever that means.) Alien invasion stories have been done before. They seem to be enjoying a renaissance. They're a natural for excitement, suspense, and lots of action. They can also serve as a platform for neat ideas, political and philosophical statements, and examination of just what in our world is worth fighting for. FOOTFALL is long on excitement, suspense, action, nifty weapons, and characters. Oh, lord, characters. There are one hundred and twenty-two characters (they're listed inside the covers, and again after the table of contents). A lot of them are spear carriers. None of them is very three dimensional, though some are original enough to come alive slightly. If you read novels for characterization, skip this one. If you read SF for brilliant, original ideas, you too may not be very interested. Niven and Pournelle don't touch Fermi's Paradox ("If there's intelligent life in the universe, where is everyone?"). There's not much motivation as to why the Fithp are in our solar system (the motivation is in fact mentioned near the end of the novel), or why, aside from being a warrior race, they want to take over our planet and keep us alive. There *are* some reasons they want to take over our planet, instead of just building space habitats, and those reasons are part of the conflict. So, FOOTFALL doesn't do for alien invasion stories what STAR WARS did for SF movies; it does entertain. There are some really spiffy weapons in here (orbital tank killers?!) The prose is more than competent. The high stakes make the suspense nearly unbearable. And, dammit, the pages turn and turn, and the story keeps going on, picking up steam as it goes. This isn't *THE* alien invasion story. It's just a pretty good one. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 30 Jul 1985 11:58:58-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: Generation Ships So far, the response to the request for SF references about "Generation Ships" has not been extensive. I imagine there must be several novels dealing with space ships that take so long to reach their destinations, but the first that springs to mind is STARBURST, by Fred Pohl. This is the best example of his writing that I've seen, and is an interesting way to deal with the topic, as well. In STARBURST, we put a shipload of colonists (only 8 members!?) onto a ship destined for a planet revolving around Alpha Centauri. This planet is the figment of the imagination of Dr. Knefhausen, and the mission to colonize this planet is doomed to fail. The good Doctor is much more interested in the effects of deep-space travel on the Unlucky Eight (my own appellation), and on their descendants. The four couples chosen for this mission are certainly above average intelligence, and seem to have unlimited resources and libraries on board. I can't tell you more than that -- it's worth reading, at least once. In fact, I'll read it again as soon as I've finished FOUR THOUSAND IN GEHENNA, by C. J. Cherryh. I'm halfway through this novel, the first I've read by Cherryh, and I can hardly put it down...keep bumping into walls, and calibans.... :-) MJM, Soft. Pub's, DEC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 85 20:56:28 CST From: Doug Monk Subject: RE : RE : cold-blooded cuteness In SFLD V10 #287, it was suggested that : >The treasuring of cute little animals is hardly a cultural >universal. For example: a rather decadent Chinese banquet delicacy >was live baby mice dipped in honey and rolled in sesame seeds. Yum. Not a good counter-example : baby mice only meet the helpless criterion of the cuteness index ( which someone else posted a partial version of earlier. ) The only really "cute" mice in fact are cartoon mice, which are artificially altered to fit the cuteness profile better. >...Another for example: the fellows up in the Great White North who >make their living clubbing baby seals probably don't shed any tears >over the 'cute' baby seals with their 'cute' big eyes. I suspect >the 'cute' reaction is primarily a fairly recent Anglo-American >cultural tradition, since I've never seen it mentioned in any other >cultural contexts. Anyone else out there have any ideas about this? In behavioral science, one of the most popular theories to bandy about ( especially when what one is working on is not too interesting ) is the issue of "instincts" in human beings. One school of thought holds that the "cuteness reflex" is so pervasive in almost all of human society that it qualifies as an "instinct". There have been studies done which indicate that there are certain qualities which trigger this reflex, and these qualities have been tabulated into a "cuteness profile" ( including large eyes, large head in proportion to the body, helplessness, etc. ) Since I am not working in the behavioral field any longer ( bitten by the computer bug, oh no !-), I can't come up with more specifics right at the moment, but try the Social Sciences Index in a good research library. As to slaughtering baby seals for profit, I don't think that the "instinct" if it is such ( and there are schools of thought that maintain it is just a strong reflex which might be learned in its entirety ) is strong enough to completely overwhelm all other factors : greed, sadism, self-defense, etc. Just as in animals, it would be expected that instincts can be over-ridden. The fact that the slaughter of baby seals raises such vehement outrage in other people might be attributed to the "instinct", though. It might be interesting to compile a list of baby animals people consider cute and compare with a list of non-cute baby animals and see how well it matches or violates the cuteness profile. ( No, I am NOT volunteering! I'm busy that day... :-). Doug Monk (bro@rice.arpa) ------------------------------ From: mtuxn!rubin@topaz.arpa (M.RUBIN) Subject: Re: Ewoks and NutraSweet (really saturday morning SW) Date: 31 Jul 85 17:19:10 GMT Two Saturday morning cartoons called "Droids" and "Ewoks" respectively are scheduled for this fall (NBC, around 9AM, replacing "Mighty Orbots", I think). Does anybody know whether they will be animated by Lucasfilm or by some random hanna-barbarians? "Droids" is reportedly what C3PO and R2D2 were doing before the time of the existing SW movies; perhaps this is how SW #1-#3 are going to reach the screen. As to "Ewoks", I await only the episode where they meet the Smurfs and the Care Bears, and the cuteness overload makes Endor implode into a neutron star. :-) Mike Rubin {ihnp4, rest of AT&T}!mtuxn!newtech!rubin ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner) Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens Date: 31 Jul 85 01:14:22 GMT jackson@ttidcb.UUCP (Dick Jackson) writes: >Wasn't it Fermi who asked about 40 years ago "If there are advanced >races out there in the stars, where are they?" meaning that at >least one star faring race should have explored the whole place by >now and we should have seen them. Well, 40 years ago the idea of going to the moon was considered preposterous, and supersonic travel was "impossible"--so I wouldn't quote 40 year old predictions... My own response is two-fold--the size of the galaxy relative to the size of the earth is such that looking for a needle in a haystack would be child's play by comparison (ie, even if they were looking for intelligent life, think of *all* the area in which to look (don't quote me quotes of them receiving our radio signals, either--this is forty years ago, remember?); the second thing is, why would they come here? Shoot, probably most of us wouldn't be here if we could leave (joke, joke!). >They would talk to us, and be bored a lot of the time in doing so I >guess. Probably they would plan for very long-term goals . Human's >plans are generally of the order of one year (multiply or divide by >ten). Gorillas and dogs don't plan more than a few seconds ahead. >I'm assuming that THEY are ahead of us in roughly the same ratio as >we are ahead of gorillas. > >Presumably they would have concerns that we could not even >comprehend, and therefore cannot now speculate about! Or can we? >Anyone care to try? I would recommend Dorothy Lessing's works to anyone interested in these types of questions...as a matter of fact, I would recommend her "Shikasta" series to *anyone*, regardless of their interests. They were primarily philosophical and political criticism vehicles, I suppose, but they were quite good as science fiction in their own right. Or as satire (especially "The Sentimental Agents"). Alas, I can't remember a single other title...there goes the senility again! Roy Turner School of Information and Computer Science Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 1448-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #301 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 4 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 301 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Best SF of the Year, Films - Zenna Henderson, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Overpopulation (2 msgs) & Cuteness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sun!alan@topaz.arpa (Alan Marr, Sun Graphics) Subject: Heinlein's New Book Date: 31 Jul 85 07:54:50 GMT I am told by Printer's Inc. that his new book has a title like "The Cat Who Walked Through Walls: A Comedy of Manners" and is due out this fall. ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: TERRY CARR'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR Date: 31 Jul 85 21:28:08 GMT Let's see. Carr's BEST SF OF THE YEAR #12 must have appeared in 1983 for it to have one a Locus Award in 1984, so this must be number fourteen. Oddly enough, neither a series number nor the year appear anywhere in the title; I think the name changed when Carr started editing the series for Tor. But what'll they call it next year? "Best of the Year" anthologies have a tendency to be pretty good, Carr's more so (in my opinion) than others. His picks (like Gardner Dozois's, for his anthology) tend to include more experimental stuff than others. If that doesn't appeal to you, maybe you'd be better off with another "Best". The lead story is John Varley's Nebula-winning "Press Enter _", and let me say something right here about the typography. The last character in the title is supposed to be a blinking block cursor. Oddly enough, none of the books that make reference to the story manage the blinking. I can't even manage the block, so I've substituted an underline (that's what my cursor looks like). I've got lots to say about "Press Enter _"; I'll say it some other time. The other stories? "Blued Moon" by Connie Willis is a funny, twisted story about life in a research corporation where the most common language is Jargon, one young man intends to use his three fiances ("fee-an-sees") as stepping stones to the boss's daughter, said daughter is looking for someone who speaks English, and the company linguist is wondering just what he was hired for. Charles L. Harness's "Summer Solstice" is a historical tale of an alien in distress, and Eratosthenes in Ptolemy's court in Alexandria. I don't know enough of the period to know if this is supposed to be an alternate history story. Alternate or ours, if you like historical SF, you'll like this story more than I did. "Morning Child" is a typical Gardner Dozois tale, with vivid prose, a gimmick you'll likely guess before the end, and not much "story" worth mentioning. George Alec Effinger tells us about "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, *Everything*" with wit and skill. I don't usually care for Tanith Lee, but "A Day in the Skin (or, the Century We Were Out of Them)" got to me. Neat idea, good execution. Bob Leman's "Instructions" isn't a story, exactly, but it's a nice piece of writing, and I liked it. Carr bought Kim Stanley Robinson's first two novels, THE WILD SHORE and ICEHENGE, for Ace, and "The Lucky Strike" for UNIVERSE 14. I liked it a lot there, I like it a lot here, it's another Nebula winner, and I told you so. "Green Hearts" is Lee Montgomerie's first story, a tale of genetic modification. It brings to mind Alan Gopin's generic comment, "It seems to be vague, but is in fact meaningless." The story's not bad, but I'm not sure it belongs in a "Best of". (If Carr wanted something from INTERZONE, couldn't he have found something stronger? I guess his tastes and mine diverge.) Octavia E. Butler copped another Nebula award with "Bloodchild". This is a hell of a piece of writing. This is a terrific story. Not recommended for reading right before bedtime. Otherwise, highly recommended. Michael Stanwick's "Trojan Horse" is about a lot of things: personality transfer and surgery, God, love, God, religion, and psychology. Pamela Sargent's story is called "Fears"; it's a very paranoid story about a person who, considering the world of the story, is justifiably very paranoid. If you're still fighting "Women's Lib", you won't want to read this one at all. (But maybe half a dozen tag-team feminists will force feed it to you?) "Trinity" by Nancy Kress is another story about God, this time using cloning and drugs to examine divinity. Quite a variety. You'll find something you'll dislike. You'll find several stories that will haunt you. You'll find all three Nebula award winners for short SF. "Best" is a hard title to justify; Carr has. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Thu 1 Aug 85 02:07:19-CDT From: LRC.HJJH@UTEXAS-20.ARPA Subject: Zenna Henderson TV movie Zenna Henderson's "The People" TV Movie I've been trying to promote a "Zenna Henderson Remembrance Day" at NASFiC. On that Saturday one of the papers in the academic track is about her People stories; there's going to be a group present an oral reading of her story "Subcommittee"; and at least a couple relevant songs have been promised for the filking that night. What we really need, though, is that made-for-TV movie based on her People stories (starring William Shatner), from 'way back before there were home video-recorders. Evidently it's not in any film catalogs, and no one I've yet contacted has been able to cite a source for rental/borrowing. If there's help ANYWHERE, it ought surely to be here on SF-LOVERS... (or, some other more media-oriented BBoard you could pass this plea on to?) ------------------------------ From: whuxcc!mda@topaz.arpa Subject: Old Doctor Who Episodes Date: 30 Jul 85 17:41:49 GMT WNJN (New Jersey Network, channel 50 in North Jersey) is going to show about 17 Doctor Who episodes from the early 60's with William Hartnell starring as the (original) Doctor. These ought to be real classics (they're even in black and white), and they begin airing on Saturday, September 7 after WNJN finishes off Jon Pertwee :-). Too bad I won't be anywhere near NJ at that time, but I suppose many others will. By the way, after the Hartnell episodes, Doctor Who is going to take a vacation from WNJN and won't be shown for some time. So it goes. Mark Abramowitz Bell Communications Research Morristown, NJ ...!ihnp4!whuxcc!mda ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 29 Jul 85 18:30:24 GMT mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >>Besides, there is an underlying fallacy here: the idea that there >>is such a thing as enough living space. Exponential growth will >>use up whatever space is available, in relatively short order. >This itself is a fallacy, on two counts. As far as humans are >concerned, exponential is characteristic of a certain phase of >technological and cultural development. Most developed societies >today have either slowly growing or stable populations. I terms of >other races, well, whose to say? I would venture to guess, >however, that a race which had an unalterable tendency towards high >growth rates would have a hard time developing adequate technology; >too much effort would be going into people starving. I believe that stable populations are a temporary anomaly. Only populations which lack room to expand are stable. The reason is that that which holds still is sooner or later overwhelmed by that which keeps growing. This is a fundamental fact for both biological and cultural evolution. You are confusing "exponential" growth rates with "high" growth rates. Exponential means that the annual growth is some fraction of the total population. For growth to not be exponential, ultimately all but a tiny fraction of the populated area must have ZPG. My example assumes a growth rate of .7 to 3%. We have acheived considerable technological gains with a growth rate in that range. But even a growth rate two or three orders of magnitude lower doesn't change the argument significantly: you run out of space very quickly, as measured by an astronomical time scale. And remember, it only takes ONE race to fill the entire galaxy. >> This will get us to the nearest star in about forty years. >That's a generation ship. Very few women are fertile after 40 years. Perhaps a one-generation ship :-). It's not "our great great grandchildren will get there." >> That gets us there in about seven years (a bit less for the >>travelers.) Right now it looks like the biggest problem with this >>drive is producing anti-matter economically (it can already be >>produced, using particle accelerators, it's just fantastically >>expensive). >Well, unless you are going to break out of the current laws of >physics, it takes the same amount of energy to get there in a >certain time no matter how you store the power. You either have to >generate it along the way, or produce it all at the beginning and >store it somewhere (and storage isn't necessarily a problem). Storage probably is the problem, unless you generate it along the way. Even assuming fusion, the reaction mass is significant compared to the size of the ship. That means you have to carry more reaction mass to accelerate the fuel, and you wind up using LOTS of energy. Of course, a ramjet will solve the problem, but ramjets may or may not be workable. My point is that there a lot of potential technologies, and almost certainly, SOME of them work. > And it's a LOT of energy, all of which you have to get rid of if >you expect to stop when you get there. The seven year figure assumes you accelerate halfway, and decelarate the other half. >"Tom, how am I going to generate that kind of power? It can't be >done!" There is plenty of energy available from the sun. If you wanted to move whole planets, it would get problematical, but for spacecraft there is no problem. ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Advanced races and overpopulation Date: 29 Jul 85 19:05:51 GMT It is quite correct that space colonization won't cure overpopulation. But overpopulation WILL cause space colonization, because it is to the advantage of the person who leaves to do so. He or she gets to live in a more pleasant environment (at least marginally), and have as many children as desired. Sure, the average Joe would rather live in the Riviera. But even today, that isn't an option for most of us. There comes a point where what you have is bad enough that you take a chance with something new. The U.S. did get colonized, after all. The marching morons scenario won't work with normally intelligent human beings. You can't fool all the people all the time. ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Cold blooded cuteness Date: 30 Jul 85 21:05:01 GMT milne@uci-icse writes: >> universal. . . . Another for example: the fellows up in the >> Great White North who make their > There are few surer ways to arouse my ire than to make remarks > like that about Canadians. You are, I assume, referring to the > harp seal hunt in Newfoundland. I suggest you find out what > actually happens (and NOT from Greenpeace, who paid to have a > baby seal skinned alive for a photographer: the only time it was > ever done) before you draw these conclusions. To put it mildly, > the image spread by the most vocal people is rather one-sided. So what happens? My understanding is that the people who kill the seals are Canadian citizens, and that they use clubs to do it. Also, that at least some of them are living close to the edge and depend on this income for survival. Hence the 'make their living...' Heh, heh... perhaps you think I'm a typical crunchy-granola eating Greenpeacer or something of the sort. Or perhaps you have a knee-jerk reaction to ANYONE from the USA making ANY statement about Canadians. I could care a fig about saving cute little baby seals, and my statement WASN'T intended to be a statement of support for those who are critical of the seal harvest OR a slam against Canadians. I care a great deal more about the Canadians who must feed their families than about young wild animals whose 'natural' deaths would probably be a lot more brutal than a quick clubbing. I DO care a great deal about the exploitation of endangered species, because the number of species that have gone extinct in the past 100-150 years is staggering and the relationship between diversity and stability in ecosystems is far from clear. My understanding is that the harp seal is far from being an endangered species, however. If you're reacting emotionally to some perceived slur against Canadians in general, I'm sorry but that wasn't the intention of the comment. It may be that the wording of the statement was ambiguous, and I apologize for that. > Reactions to the softer, more rounded forms of younger animals > and birds have been studied by biologists. The same sort of > reactions are found across species, never mind cultures. You mean, perhaps, 'in different species' rather than 'across species.' > For instance, if a cardboard model is placed in a bird's nest, > next to the real hatchling, and it is made even more rounded > (what is called "supernormal"), the adult seems to prefer it > over the real hatchling. And just watching the drawings > comparing model to hatchling, you had to admit the model was > cuter. Suggestive, but what does 'seems to prefer' mean? Greater feeding frequency? And have the results been replicated? And how do you quantify 'cuter': 30% cuter? 60% cuter? Saying that birds pay greater attention to a model that's more rounded than its own young is one thing; extrapolating this to a general cross-species genetic predisposition for something you call 'cuteness' is quite another. 'Having to admit' a high degree of cuteness is hardly a scientific observation. A scientific experiment like the above doesn't mean a lot out of context, and you haven't mentioned either corroboration or criticism of the findings. I'm not familiar with the study you site since I'm not an animal behaviorist, but I'll wager that there's not a consensus on its validity OR meaning among animal behaviorists. > Same for supernormal models of baby rabbits, and of human > babies, even though, view objectively, they looked acutely > hydrocephalic and in need of immediate surgery.. (If anybody's > interested, I believe at least some of these experiments were > done by Nikko Tinbergen in his famous experiments with gulls). > So I believe it's more biological than cultural. You can believe it all you want, but if you can't show me a gene in HUMANS that predisposes them to this kind of behavior you haven't proved a thing regarding the existence or nonexistence of a genetic predisposition to nurture 'cuteness' in human beings. I refer anyone who's interested to my postings in net.singles a month or two ago in which inheritance of behavior was discussed. One of those postings gave a bibliography to start people out on an investigation of the topic; I refer you to those postings for my position and arguments on this topic. I'm not going to go through it all again in a different newsgroup. I'll repeat a challenge I made there: I challenge anyone in this newsgroup to show me a study whose results have clearly linked a human behavior to a gene or group of genes, and whose results have (a) been corroborated by followup studies and (b) shown not to be fraudulent. Cyril Burt's often-mentioned identical twin studies do NOT qualify because of (b). > And even culturally, enjoyment of cuteness can hardly be called > recent. Look at the number of Victorian books (though I admit > I'm thinking of children's books right now) in which it appears. The Victorian era counts as recent in my book. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Aug 85 1526-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #302 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 4 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 302 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Moorcock & Generating Fantasy, Films - Hobbs End & Things to Fear & SF Westerns (3 msgs) & Ladyhawke Music - Wakeman & Jean-Luc Ponty, Miscellaneous - Ewoks (2 msgs) & Why Leave Home & Technology vs Magic & Chris Lloyd & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dcl-cs!gdh@topaz.arpa (Gareth Husk) Subject: Re: Green Hills of Earth Date: 24 Jul 85 16:11:49 GMT >BTW, Does anyone have the complete lyrics of Heinlein's "Green >Hills of Earth" Thanks. >Aline The only place the words to "The Green..." occurs is in the book published by Pan ( in UK ) called "the Green Hills of Earth " and even in the story about Rhysling some of the verses are only mentioned not quoted. But if its been published in the states I'd be interested as well. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!gdh DARPA: gdh%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: gdh@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4146 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.arpa (Doug Alan) Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind Date: 31 Jul 85 12:49:31 GMT > From: 4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@ymir.ARPA (Will Duquette) > I do believe that Moorcock actually "created" the band in his > books about Jerry Cornelius.... So far as I know, the *real* band > got their inspiration from this. > > Anybody know for sure? Well, I find this hard to believe since Michael Moorcock is a sometimes member of Hawkwind, but not a founding member. In any case, when were the books written? Hawkwind dates back to 1968 -- though at that time their name was "Hawkwind Zoo". Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 11:39:13 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: D&D adventures in fiction >I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if >anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were >derived from actual games. I know of one through personal experience, not a book but a short story. The story in question is titled "Just Call Me Albert" (I think) and was published in "Dragontales", a one-time-only TSR publication of fantasy stories. I was the DM for the adventure in question, which was only slightly less bizarre than Martin Mundt (adventurer and author) wrote it up. It was loads of fun, and I enjoyed seeing it show up in print, too. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 1985 08:20:08-EDT (Thursday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Hobbs End The movie involving Hobbs End was not Lovecraftian, but "5 Million Years to Earth" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 08:44 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: The Devil at Hobbs End? > In this flick, excavation for a subway uncovers this strange blue > spaceship, which contains a few dead grasshopper aliens.... I remember watching this as a kid and loving it. It scared me good, but it was called Five Million Years to Earth, as I recall. Needless to say, the aliens aren't dead and things get pretty weird for all involved. I'm not surprised it was by HP Lovecraft. On a similar note, anyone remember a story that appeared in an HPL collection (maybe by someone else) about a grown up reading about a friend's mutilation murder and remembering their imagined monster (a nasty critter with no face) that lived in a dark section of sidewalk. That was the exact place his friend wa killed. He had stopped to look back. Still gives me a shiver when I'm walking in the dark. And does anyone else have a small fear induced by TV/books/movies? I get the heebie geebies whenever I'm in a dark heavily vegetated garden. I'm afraid Miss Green Fingers from Night Gallery is going to sprout up and get me. Good thing I don't believe it, but you try and tell my fear glands that. And it didn't save the fellow in the last paragraph. Jon Pugh (Too scared to go out, and too scared to stay home) Ps. An idea! I'm interested in collecting one liners. Things to be afraid of. Like: Those little guys in the basement fireplace that want to drag you down there. (Don't be Afraid of The Dark) Dolls with sharp teeth and a necklace that "you dare not remove". (Trilogy of Terror) Mail to me, I'll post a collection. pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 1 Aug 1985 05:50:01-PDT From: dearborn%hyster.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (DTN264-5090) Subject: SF WESTERNS I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the film "Moon Zero Two" produced by Hammer Films of England. It used blatant western themes throughout the film. There were actual cowboys (of sorts) on the moon, along with a saloon. Catherine Schell was one of the stars (back when she was Catherine Von Schell). An awful film. ------------------------------ From: inset!jmc@topaz.arpa (John Collins) Subject: Re: Science Fiction Westerns Date: 2 Aug 85 11:43:35 GMT chabot@miles.DEC (Sxyzyskzyik) writes: >"Westworld" is obvious, and "Star Wars" is good too, but "Outland" >was really "High Noon" with a few changes and fancy sets. There >are also Star Trek episodes (and it's amazing how many distant >planets look like Vasquez Rocks) & novels that are westerns. I have thought that since about 1969 when I used to watch "Star Trek" on Wednesdays and "The Virginian" on Fridays on BBC TV. I thought then: SAME DIFFERENT Plot Props Fact you can guess plot in <5 mins from start Time of showing Duration Good guys win (& survive to next week) (Quite often) Actors! etc Nothing new under the Sun (even when it isn't `THE' sun).... John M Collins ....mcvax!ist!inset!jmc Phone: +44 727 57267 Snail Mail: 47 Cedarwood Drive, St Albans, Herts, AL4 0DN, England. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 85 11:48:22 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: SF westerns There is a novel called "The Hawkline Monster (a Gothic Western)" by the late Richard Brautigan. It isn't really a western, a gothic, or SF, but has some elements of all three. marty (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 1 Aug 85 13:55:01-EDT From: Mike Thome Subject: Ladyhawke and spoilers Fer Gawd's sake! The name of the movie gives away the curse! Also, Anyone want to speculate on how much coincidence was involved in the level of resemblence between (1) the two "little people" in Black Cauldron and (2) the two types of Gremlins?... It was almost too much for me - but then, wasn't BC started significantly before G? What's the explanation? Spies? Common ancestor(s)? Blind coincidence? Mike Thome mthome@bbng ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 08:54 PDT From: Mohr.pa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Rick Wakeman What about Rick Wakeman's album Journey_to_the_Center_ of_the_Earth? It came out in approximately 1974. Narration allows the music to follow the book pretty closely. It was a rather big production at the time with synthesizers, orchestra and chorus. Unhappily, it is not as well done as War_of_the_Worlds (Yes, I've heard that one too). At one point it sounds as though the orchestra moved to the next room. Still a rather enjoyable listen, though. Has anyone else used the SFbook-to-album format? Bill Mohr ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 85 11:52 EDT From: ------ Operator Subject: sf in music Jazz violinist Jean-Luc Ponty has a cut called "Wandering On The Milky Way" on the "Imaginary Voyage" album. The title cut (which is the whole second side) isn't specifically science fiction, but it has the feel. Doesn't Spider Robinson mention Ponty in the "Melancholy Elephants" collection? Anne McCaffery's epsodic book "To Ride Pegasus" contains an episode about a folk singer who can manipulate the emotions of crowds as she sings. Jessie (ops@ncsc) ------------------------------ From: convexs!ayers@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Cuteness, Ewoks, and other "abomina Date: 29 Jul 85 21:01:00 GMT >I think that ROTJ overdid it -- the attackes the Ewoks made on the >imperial forces were just TOO primitive to be effective... Ah, but they didn't succeed -- if you'll remember, they started to loose and our good ole human buddies stepped in and used the troopers own machines against them... >if the stormtroopers fall apart that easily they never would have >gotten that far in the first place... If you believe that, you've been in neither a corporation nor the military. And you've definitely never been in a war... The stormtroopers never got any "far" -- that's done by generals and other politicians... blues, II ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 1985 1451-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: re: cuteness et al. If the Ewoks were ever seen and/or scanned by the Imperial Storm Troopers there would have been a nice big Ewok hunt and they would all be gone from at least that part of the 'forest moon'. Why would a ruthless intersteller force allow even 'cute' and 'harmless' little teddy bear creatures to run around that star empire's number one military installation? The sheild was then the only thing that could protect the Death Star II. They had no problem killing of the Jawa's in Star Wars, why not kill of the Ewoks in RoTJ? Then Luke and company could have come to the aid of the 'poor defenseless teddy bears' and we could have all given a big 'ahhhhhhhhhh' when Luke 'forced' the sh*t out of the big bad storm troopers who were having fun blasting the Ewoks... That would have made an even better Christmas marketing blitz and would have made the Ewok participation in the assault on the force shield more convincing. They would be defending their home against the alien invaders instead of helping out a 'golden monotone storyteller and its friends'!!! What about that? Warren (SANDER @ DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Why Leave Home At All? Date: 1 Aug 85 13:43:46 GMT crm@duke.UUCP (Charlie Martin) writes: > When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate >all the people we already have (why talk about racial survival if >the ones alive right now are not counted priceless?) and can >establish a homeostasis on this ball of dirt so that it is a stable >place -- then, and only then would I say we had earned the right to >leave. I would point out that the kind of energy needed for serious interstellar travel is probably about comparable to that needed to support the rest of the globe in the US lifestyle-- probably even more. I doubt that there is the political will to so apply it though; we will almost certainly try space travel first. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 85 11:21 EDT From: Stephen Mahan Subject: Science and magic In answer to a question about the co-existence of science and magic, the book _The Big U_ deals with the collision of scientific and magical universes. The book is a parody of life at a large college (American Megaversity) complete with dorm life, absurd administration, and the rest of the normal challenges of life(?) at school. For those of you who attended a massive university, a look back. The rest of you will see what you missed :-) steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 09:00 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Chris Lloyd I was watching Showtime last night and what to my startled eyes should appear? Chris Lloyd as the PE coach in, catch this, The Joy of Sex. A junk movie, we watched it with the sound off and missed nothing. Ah well, everyone has to eat. Actors included. I would say this was made a while ago, though. He looks like he has lost weight since then. ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: What Invaders Want (with WAMCLOS list) Date: 30 Jul 85 22:16:17 GMT > I just finished reading Wayne Throop's posting on this subject, in > which he says something like "Earlier postings have established > that we would have no material wealth that invading aliens would > want" (apologies for any drastic misquoting, but that was the gist > of the comment). Not a misquote. My exact words were "Earlier articles point out that we have no material wealth to offer an advanced technology, and slave labor seems ridiculously expensive to a technically advanced society." I was refering to the earlier posting of the notion that any material wealth on earth is also on planets elsewhere in the solar system with little or no gravity wells (and no hostile natives (I assume)). But you give an interesting counter-example below, so I'd like to expand on this a little. > I can easily imagine a technologically advanced race scouring > other planets looking for certain elements (I dunno, Chromium, or > Tungsten, or something). In fact, I can imagine them valuing > certain materials, which we value highly, even higher. "Can you > believe it, Chbik? These humanoids were *burning* their > *hydrocarbons*!" So can I. But why come to earth for it? Asteroids and other easier-to-process sources for it exist nearby. I also can't buy the slave-labor notion. The technology to get here would seem to me to imply the technology to refine most anything they would want from asteroids. However, your point about hydrocarbons is a telling one. Biological material is a good possibility (since the physical technology needed for interstellar transport doesn't imply synthetic biologicals). Therefore, I'll have to add to my (rather short) list of Why Aliens Might Conquor Little Old Us (WAMCLOS list): - insanity - disaster - biological resources Note that this list doesn't "invalidate" very many SF stories. Almost all aliens-conquor-us SF can be sorted into one of the first two cases (as opposed to aliens-visit-us, which is a much broader category). Does anybody know of a clear-cut example of the third? > Never having seen an episode of V (hurray for me!), I'll admit to having seen one (1) episode. It was more than enough. > I can't conjecture too successfully on why the lizards wanted > water. But answer this for me: were they stealing salt water or > fresh water? Or tap water? Not clear, but I *think* it was fresh water, pumped from some aqueduct or other in California. And the point remains that V had the lizards after two things, meat and water. Both of these things (given interstellar technology) would be easier to obtain locally than by interstellar transport. Now, if they'd been after some rare drug, or if they were pumping oil rather than water... (About meat: I'm not saying they might not take a few folks for noshes on the way back home. But the correct strategy (it seems to me) would be to take just a few, and breed more when you get home. In *this* sense, meat is easier to obtain locally than from earth. (Thus, something with a faster breeding cycle would be indicated... they should take rabbits.) Therefore, I don't class meat as a biological resource worth conquering earth to obtain.) Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 85 0951-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #303 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 303 Today's Topics: Books - Niven & Women Writers, Films - 2010 & Night of the Comet & Star Trek & Five Million Years to Earth & Sexism in Movies, Music - War of the Worlds & Hawkwind, Miscellaneous - Quote Source & Chris Lloyd & Technology vs Magic & Aliens (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john) Subject: Re: Protector psychology Date: 29 Jul 85 20:27:00 GMT >Truesdale and the protectors of Home: They decide to break out of >the hospital to spread the virus, killing the majority of the >population of Home (several million people). Many of these people >killed are their relatives. They do this to preserve humanity in >general in the long term, most of whom they are unrelated to (order >of 20 billion people). They seem to have no major qualms about >this. They knew about the other ships from Pak that were approaching and did that to prevent total annilhilation. >Teela Brown and the protectors of Ringworld: She refuses to use the >solar flare/laser system to save Ringworld from imminent >destruction. Several trillion (?) "people" are going to die in a >few years, but she refrains because using the system would kill 5% >of the population. Niven mentioned something about another protector besides Teela that would try and move the Ringworld inhabitants. Assuming that was possible then the greatest number could be saved by not saving Ringworld. Another explanation could be that Protectors view morality in a different light than we do. We tend to believe that failing to save a life is sometimes the same as murder. A protector may feel that death due to Ringworld's destruction was natural and would not justify intentional murder to prevent. You must remember that Teela was compelled by instinct that contradicted what her intelligence told her to do. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ From: wenn@cmu-cs-g.ARPA (John Wenn) Subject: Sherri Tepper & Patricia McKillip Date: 30 Jul 85 12:18:13 GMT Personally I like "The Revenants" by Sherri Tepper much more than any of her other books (True Game trilogy & Mavin Manyshaped trilogy). Her True Game world is a a nice setting for light fantasy ('though she does interject some difficult moral issues at times). "The Revenants" is set in a more complex, and to me, more satisfing setting. "The Revenants" is a slightly strange work, the BASIC tone and outlook of the book changes several times, but then odd outlooks is one of the reasons I read F&SF. About Patricia McKillip, in addition to "The Forgotten Beasts of Eld" and the Star Trilogy ("The Riddle-Master of Hed", "Heir of Sea and Fire", & "Harpist in the Wind"), she's done several children's books (one of which can be read by anyone: "The Throme of the Erril of Sheril"), and one that's hard to classify ("Stepping From the Shadows"). I suppose you could call SFtS an adult main-stream fantasy. I consider it borderline F&SF; but then I think that water's wet, so what do I know. One thing that's odd is how many of my favorite fantasy writers are women. Dianne Duane, R. A. MacAvoy, Patricia McKillip, Robin McKinley, Meredith Ann Pierce, Sherri Tepper, Cherry Wilder, & Jane Yolen are all good fantasy writers. I also like Pamela Dean & P. C. Hodgell, but I'll wait until their second book to see if they can maintain the quality of their first novel. John Wenn ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 26 Jul 85 13:56:27 GMT > I just saw 2010 for the first time the other night at a revival > theater. [ ...] assuming everything happened just the way the > movie said it did, how did people on Earth react? > > It struck me that that fancy new sun and all those weird messages > coming over TV screens all over the planet didn't really change > the political situation one iota. > > So what do you think? As a self-proclaimed cynic, I think that the Earthlings went right on with their nuclear war (with a suitable pause for gazing at the special effects). Why? Well, all the aliens really did was give them more living space. The Soviets and Americans weren't fighting over land, but political and economic ideals plus a whole lot of mutual paranoia. The only thing they'll do with the planets is fight over who has control of them once the earth is a glowing husk. the Shadow ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ Subject: Two Messages Date: 27 Jul 85 16:57:02 PDT (Sat) From: Doug Krause To: Duane Morse I haven't seen ST-III recently so I can't say who the barmaid was, but Rand was the redhead in space dock that watched the Enterprise "limp" in. At first she looks like Marilu Henner from "Taxi" but if you look close enough, you can tell that it's Grace Lee Whitney. Doug Krause dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 14:58:44 EDT From: Jim Hofmann NIGHT OF THE COMET> a video/film review ... Gee, I'm kind of glad I didn't shell out more than the 1.50 I spent in renting this one. Its transfer to the small screen really doesn't make too much difference that I can see. In other words the special effects comprise only a small amount of the flick. I guess I should say SPOILER,SPOILER here but I'll keep it mild. The story follows the adventures of two girls ( described as "Valley Girls" in the videocase blurb ) in the aftermath of the end of the world. The catastrophe occurs after a comet visits Earth sometime in the late 1990's, although the difference between this time and the movie time is small ( I think one of the Val's is wearing spacey like shoes, but all the auto's in the flick are circa 1984 ). Despite warnings from doomsayers and thinktanks, everyone in the world ( well, just about ) goes out to party, watch the comet and then die leaving only our heroines and some cute guys, of course to fend against the remaining zombies and a bunch of silly scientists who went into hiding since they had figured out what would happen. The plot is shallow since the girls don't really have any goal except to find the remaining valley guys. Also, any serious science fiction possibilities are obscured by the silly over-characterization of the girls. Apparently, at the time this movie was made, being or making fun of Valley Girls was the in-thing, much like, say, the current Madonna craze or the Yuppie phase. Although the girl's shallowness draws a few chuckles, this movie doesn't address the question of how these girls are going to survive once the automatic functions ( electricity, water ) of the city run out. Instead, they run from store to store sans MasterCard trying on new clothes, etc. until they run into the baddies and kill them. Yecch. Yawn. What would have been more interesting would be a look at the world created by the Val's say 30 or 50 years later by cutting out the spew that results between the End of the World and the final scene where one of the boyfriends is throwing away the machine guns, and Regina states, "The burden of Civilization is on our shoulders." To see how these silly dunderheads rebuild culture would be more interesting than the Vals against the Zombies. Since this wasn't a resounding success at the box office, I don't think we'll ever be seeing a sequel. Oh well. If you're willing to spend some money renting this turkey ( given you have or have access to a VCR ) and have an hour or two to spare, go ahead and get "Night of the Comet." Make sure you invite some friends to make sarcastic comments and please don't blame me if the the rental store doesn't give you a refund. Jim Hofmann ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 85 10:06:37 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: "Five Million Years to Earth" (film) The film identified as "The Devil of Hobbs End" is actually "Five Million Years to Earth" [not "20,000,000 Miles to Earth", which is another film entirely], and was originally titled "Quatermass and the Pit". It is one of three films featuring the hero (from BBC) Professor Bernard Quatermass. The Prof is played by Andrew Keir in "5M Years"; in the other movies, ("Enemy from Space" and "The Creeping Unknown") he was played by Brian Donlevy. "5M Years" is one of the best and scariest low-budget SF films of all time. I highly recommend it -- but not alone or late at night. marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 85 14:48:03 PDT (Thursday) From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Sexism in movies "I am dismayed to find that role models for girls have regressed to self-indulgent, "material" personalities like Madonna, Brooke Shields, and Cindi Lauper" Anyone who would class Cyndi Lauper with Madonna and Brooke simply has not taken the time to find out what Cyndi Lauper is all about. In short, I will assert (and will gladly defend the assertion) that Cyndi Lauper is one of the most positive role models -- for men OR women, young OR old -- of the decade. She is also one helluva singer! To get more topical: I have said before, and I will say again, that I think Sigourney Weaver would make a great Cirocco (or however you spell that damnable wind!) in the movie version of Titan/Wizard/Demon. This despite the fact that Sigourney has been a one big dissappointment after another since Alien (in both "The Year Of Living Dangerously" and "Ghostbusters" she is on stage for stereotypical "love interests" -- she hasn't had a good role since Alien, while Meryl Streep, on the other hand, has had her pick of the best.) Perry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 15:52:35 EDT From: Jim Hofmann Subject: War of the Worlds Sorry to differ with you, jeff, but I thought "War of the Worlds" was one of the most nauseating, overdone pieces of tripe I've ever heard. Unfortunately, I had two college roomates who would play this garbage ad valium. They were jerks so I didn't really value their opinion anyway and their musical tastes reinforced my feelings. Richard Burton was overbearing and any project with David Essex's name attached is sure to be a turkey. ( Remember his co-hosting gig on Solid Gold ). Jeff Wayne was from some god-awful group (correct me if I'm wrong) called Badfinger or maybe he was John Wayne's son. Anyway, considering all the good groups from that time period (1978) who couldn't even get a producer to listen to their music [ I'm talking about real music - punk ] at that time makes this overindulgence all the more TACKY. But then again it was pretty indicative of the late-70's in itself. The reason you can't find it in a record collector store is because record collectors have good taste! Nice flaming at you, Jim Hofmann ------------------------------ From: afw@pucc-k (schlagenha) Subject: Re: Music in SF Date: 1 Aug 85 14:41:56 GMT There has been much ado about Michael Moorcock's contributions to Hawkwind of late. I think Moorcock is great, I don't know squat about Hawkwind. However, on the topic of Moorcock's songwriting he is listed on the credits of two Blue Oyster Cult songs, namely Veteran of the Psycic Wars and Black Blade. Both of obvious science fiction-fantasy bent. Mark Schlagenhauf Purdue University ihnp4!pur-ee!pucc-k!afw ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.arpa (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Re: Shalmaneser and Moira Date: 31 Jul 85 11:59:16 GMT "What I tell you three times is true" is, I believe, from _The_Hunting_ of_the_Snark_, by Lewis Carroll. ------------------------------ Subject: Two Messages Date: 27 Jul 85 16:57:02 PDT (Sat) From: Doug Krause To: Joel B. Levin The movie that you saw was "The WOMAN In Red". It did indeed star Gene Wilder but not Chris Lloyd. The movie I mentioned was "The LADY In Red". It stars Pamela Sue Martin and is the story of John Dillinger in 20s Chicago and does have Lloyd in it. Doug Krause dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: Deep Question(s) Date: 26 Jul 85 13:56:27 GMT > The interface between technology/science and magic. The only > novel we could come up with that really treated the CO-existence > of the two, was OPERATION CHAOS by ???? Can anyone give me some > examples of stories in a similar vein. ... I'm thinking more of a > situation where the two normally coexist.) THE WITCHES OF KARRES by James H. Schmitz falls right in that category. Another book that is worth looking into is THE DOOMFARERS OF CORAMONDE by Brian Daley. The bad guys summon a dragon, so the good guys summon an APC (they were trying for a tank). The ensuing battle is interesting, to say the least. Meanwhile, one other character is working to bring democracy and modern technology to a basically feudal world. Recommended. the Shadow ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ Date: 1 Aug 1985 1502-EDT From: Warren Sander Subject: Why would 'they' visit us? Seeing as we are out on one of the arms near the edge of a 'small' galaxy we probably haven't been visited because we haven't been found. It's like why don't people go to small towns way off the beaten track. Because the roads either are non-existent or in need of repair. If there is a method to FTL travel and it requires a receiver at the other end to arrive at. It could be an airport or a port or some sort of machine, maybe even some amount of mass to lock onto or a beacon of some sort. Maybe when we get out there we will find out that there is a huge interstellar civilization but the 'road to SOL' is a bumpy one (maybe a Bob Hope XX Bing Crosby XX movie in 2300) and they aren't coming here till we get it fixed. When the first slow boat travels get out there and come back with the beacon maybe then we will get more travelers coming here. So it is no wonder that no one comes here after all when was the last time you went to some little town out in the boonies just because it was there? They may have good things there but it isn't worth the hassle to go. Maybe we would get some hearty pioneers coming here to settle but with the population on this planet they would look at us a not even want to stop. Warren (SANDER @ DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 85 20:20 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: More about advanced aliens 1. Another reason why an advanced race of aliens might show up is to tell up how great they are. The Chinese did this at one point, apparently getting as far as Africa. 2. Why no aliens have vistited us reason (n): Perhapes all other intelligent races are reptillian. We aren't, since all the dinosaurs (including some that might have developed intelligence, given time) where killed by (probably) a large something hitting Earth at the wrong time. In fact, maybe there were intelligent dinosaurs, who developed FTL travel, fought a war with some other race(s), which they lost when the other race(s) hit Earth with a large something. The other race(s) avoid Earth due to "bad vibes," or were also wiped out. Anyone written an SF story along those lines? Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 85 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #304 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 304 Today's Topics: Books - Delaney (2 msgs) & McKillip & Tepper, Films - The Black Cauldron (2 msgs) & Battle Beyond the Stars, Music - The B52's, Television - The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: unc!oliver@topaz.arpa (Bill Oliver) Subject: Re: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren Date: 1 Aug 85 02:44:58 GMT rls@ihu1g.UUCP (r.l. schieve) writes: >Dhalgren was mentioned in another posting. It is one of the few >Sci-Fi books I gave up half way through in discust. Has anyone >read it all the way through? Is the ending any better? Or does it >just keep rambling on and on..... Yes! I finished the thing, and it becomes more flaky the further you go. If you can abandon yourself to the book, and try to completely inhibit any critical faculties you have, the obsessional nature of the imagery can be compelling. I read Dhalgren a second time during my Psychiatry rotations while in med school, and discussed it with my attending physician (who was also an avid SF reader). We basically came to the decision that the organization and the imagery of the novel is a great simulation of the reality and imagery experienced by a schizophrenic, though a really hard core symptomatic schizophrenic couldn't stay cohesive enough to write the thing. Any psychiatrists on the net? Bill Oliver ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:38:27 EDT From: Jim Hofmann Subject: re: Dhalgren ...SPOILER ... (sort of) Rick Schieve writes: > Dhalgren was mentioned in another posting. It is one of the few >Sci-Fi books I gave up half way through in disgust. Has anyone >read it all the way through? Is the ending any better? Or does it >just keep rambling on and on...? Well, yeh, Rick. I've read this book twice now and found it very enjoyable. It takes a clear and open mind to get into this one. The second time I read it, I tried to visualize what a movie would look like if one was ever made. I kept on thinking of a cross between Jim Morrison and Arnold Schwarzenegger to play the lead. From the beginning scene where the Kid(d) stumbles into the city of Belona to the end when he leaves and passes someone just like him entering this book touches on a lot of subjects not normally tackled in Science Fiction like gang rape (both male and female), middle-class angst and youth gangs. Delaney also introduces gee-whizzo devices to further his imagery like the Torchlights which project a hologram over the user like Spiders and Dragons. If you read closely enough you'll find this is a modern-day version of Grendal ( get it, Dhalgren/GrenDhal ?) and it is fun trying to figure out who corresponds to who. Delaney divorces himself from standard literary style and I assume this is what you mean by 'rambling'? At one point he breaks the writing into two columns when action is going on in parallel. If you still have the book try tackling it again. I haven't met many sci-fi readers who don't hold this book with anything less than awe. Jim Hofmann ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 10:28:14-PDT From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Re: Music in SF P. McKillip is one of my favorite authors. I met her at a local writing conference, and was surprised at how young she was. The first book I read by her was -The Forgotton Beasts of Eld- which is a WONDERFUL book. She said (I think) that she started to write this book for money, but the main character Sybil kind of "took over the book." She has also written a short book called -The Throme of the Erril of Sherril- (not sure of the spelling). This she wrote after taking a course in Middle English. It can sometimes be found in the children's section, as can her other books. When I met her, about 1980, she said that she was going to try to write some mainstream fiction. Aline Norris Baeck Norris@sri-ai.arpa P.S. Here is a list of her books according to Books in Print. Some have 2 versions, paperback or hardback. Enjoy! Moonflash ISBN: 0-425-08457-4 The Quest of the Riddlemaster ISBN: 0-345-26198-4 The Forgotten Beasts of Eld ISBN: 0-380-00480-1 Thm Oight Gift ISBN: 0-689-70470-4 The House on Parchment Street ISBN: 0-689-70451-8 The Forgotten Beasts of Eld ISBN: 0-425-06595-2 The Riddle-Master of Hed ISBN: 0-345-28881-5 Heir of Sea & Fire ISBN: 0-345-28882-3 Harpist in the Wind ISBN: 0-689-30687-3 The Throme of the Erril of Sherill ISBN: 0-689-30115-4 Stepping from the Shadows ISBN: 0-689-11211-4 The Riddle-Master of Hed ISBN: 0-689-30545-1 The Night Gift ISBN: 0-689-30508-7 Heir of Sea & Fire ISBN: 0-689-30606-7 The Forgotten Beasts of Eld ISBN: 0-689-30434-X Moon-Flash ISBN: 0-689-31049-8 Stepping from the Shadows ISBN: 0-425-07107-3 ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 13:54:36-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #291 >Has anybody read "The Revenants"? Is it as worthwhile as the True >Game series? I didn't like it as much as the True Game books, but this may have been my mood when I read it. And there's a long way between ``not liking it as much as the True Game books'' and ``not liking it''; it's a pretty good book. It reminded me very much of the True Game books, especially the more gruesome parts. Tepper's evil creatures seem to like torturing their minions. The plot had some surprises, but fit well into the tradition of Tolkienian fantasy. Some of the characters were very interesting. There were a lot of good ideas. I can't seem to say anything about it except damning it with faint praise, so I should explain why. Tepper's writing feels (to me) more Literary than purely for enjoyment; more like MacAvoy and LeGuin than Howard and Asprin. (I don't know that Tepper intended this.) I don't think it was very good as a work of Literature, despite its other virtues (e.g., I couldn't understand the motives of the Evil characters). I would have liked it better if I didn't think it was Literature. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE BLACK CAULDRON (slight spoiler) Date: 31 Jul 85 16:27:44 GMT THE BLACK CAULDRON A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review(*): This is the most ambitious animated fantasy from Disney since the 1950's. But budget constraints hurt the art and animation quality and shortened the film to the point that it gutted the logic. Too many of the characters are too cute. When you think of animated fantasy, what studio most often comes to mind? No question! Disney Studios. They created the standard. But even at Disney Studios, there are major and minor animated films. The majors tend to be classic stories, often fairy tales, that are made for perennial re-release. Oh, occasionally they put RESCUERS or 101 DALMATIONS into circulation, but their majors are films like SNOW WHITE, SLEEPING BEAUTY, PINOCCHIO, and three or four more you can probably name off the top of your head. For a decade, Disney Studios has worked on what seems to be their first major in a good long time. Now it is out. THE BLACK CAULDRON is an adaptation of parts of two books in Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain" series, itself based on the Mabinogion. THE BLACK CAULDRON has the same basic age-old plot that STAR WARS had. Boy from humble background (in this case, he's an assistant pig-keeper) dreams of glory in battle. Before he realizes it, he is swept into and becomes the key turning factor of a titanic battle. In this case, the battle is against a supremely evil supernatural being called "The Horned King." I don't know if we ever find out what he is king of, but he does have a few subjects that we see and will have a good deal more if he can unleash the power of the McGuffin of the title. There is a serious problem with THE BLACK CAULDRON--it has too much story. SLEEPING BEAUTY and SNOW WHITE had simple short plots you could tell in two or three sentences. They are ideal for animated films. An animated film takes a lot of work to make and Disney's tend to be 75 minutes or so. This one is 80 with a long credit sequence at the end. This means that the script does not have time to make things logical. Too many sequences are required to tell the story and so each sequence must be short. Let's look at at an example. The hero is backed up against a wall. Evil guards are throwing a hail of spears at him and he's clearly in trouble. Someone realizes that he (the hero) has a magic sword that cuts through metal, so they stop throwing spears. Why? This sword is not a shield. The magic sword is no better than a regular sword against that sort of an attack, but it is a good excuse for ending the sequence and getting to the next one. There are several other escapes that are similarly senseless. The visualizations of characters are classic Disney, which is to say that the images of evil are decent and the images of good are enough to put you in diabetic shock. The hero is callow, the heroine is pretty, the pig is cute and looks very little like a real pig. Then there is a cute creature that looks like a miniature cross between a sheepdog and Albert Einstein. The art style is an odd mixed bag of styles and at times somewhat below the Disney standard. In the early parts of the film it is much the usual Disney animation, though not as complex. At other times, they do a sort of pastel impressionistic background to save painting effort. A few scenes have live action mixed in to show flame or smoke. There was a lot of corner-cutting on the animation. On the other hand, Disney has the highest standards in the industry for print quality. The print was done on high-quality celluloid with no frame-long white flashes or dark specks from cheap film. When I saw a brand new print of KRULL, there were so many little flashes on the screen I though at first they were intentional. That never happens with a Disney film and it's time they got some recognition for that. On the whole, though, I am indifferent to this film, mostly because of a script that was so rushed that it killed the logic of the story. Rate it a straight 0 on the -4 to +4 scale. (*) Note: the suggestion to include capsule reviews is probably a good one. I will try it for at least a little while. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: The Black Cauldron & Cuteness: (spoiler review) Date: 1 Aug 85 15:50:06 GMT Before the movie was released I looked up Lloyd Alexander's books. Now they looked quite interesting but I was unsettled by the fact that they looked like children's fantasy, a fact which was later confirmed. Now that I've seen the movie, I can confirm Peter Reiher's review. This is not as fantastic as one could hope. But this should not be a criticism, this IS a children's story! This is not adult fantasy animation (fans of Heavy Metal will agree). There is absolutely no bloodshed, no cursing- there is a tavern wench, but she's mostly there for comic relief. Concerning Gurgi; I think the best thing about the movie was the laughter of the (very) little children there. Gurgi was a unanimous favorite, played against the evil King's little monster (whom I personally wanted to throttle). He inspired the greatest mirth in the children and an absolute high when he was revived. I think the same applies to the Ewoks. 1) any lover of teddy-bears fell instantly in love 2) if you were a movie maker, wouldn't you want to add these elements in to greatly increase your takings? Although I found them a bit improbable, the Ewoks were cute and their little war was well engineered. It did not detract from the main part of the movie, namely the fantastic duel between Luke and Vader. If you are a fan of fantasy animation, Disney or have little kids it is worthwhile to take the hour and a half or so to see The Black Cauldron, the movie is not slow. Just realize, that it's for the kids. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Aug 85 00:03 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: "Battle Between the Stars" rehack? While sitting around my hotel room at a computer conference last year, I happened to catch a B-grade (or worse) "sci-fi" flick called "Space Raiders" (or some such). Basic plot-line: independent, semi-piratical spaceship jockies struggle against the all-powerful "company" which has a monopoly on starship-fuel supplies; The Company sends out a completely robot-controlled killer ship to hunt down & destroy the raiders. Son of a company bigwig happens to stow away on a raider ship, is adopted (sort of) by the raiders, finds out they're actually better people in many ways than his family & friends. Lots of weird-looking aliens, odd spaceships, and so forth... all of the usual trappings. The thing that struck me most strongly was that all of the spaceship shots were either identical to, mirror-image reversals of, or clearly shot with the same models as those used in "Battle Beyond the Stars" (a.k.a. "John-boy goes to space" to the cynical). Sedor's command ship (with the "stellar converter") was back as the berserker-like robot ship; Nestor's glowing-blue ship made a short appearance, as did Zed the Corsair's cyberneticized ship (Nell?) shaped in a way reminiscent of certain human organs (at least to my moderately dirty mind). The same music was used, too (at least for the credits). As far as I can tell, this turkey aired only on pay-TV (HBO, I think) and has never seen the light-of-day in a network broadcast (or on any independent station in the Los Angeles area when I've been watching). Question: does anyone out there have any insider information about the relationships between these two movies? Were the backers of "Battle" trying to recoup some additional $$ from their investment in models and film? What's the story? ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 85 01:11:29 EDT From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Re: Science Fiction references in music Ahhhahhhahhahh She came from Planet Claire I knew she came from there She drove a Plymouth Satellite Faster than the speed of light Planet Claire has pink air All the trees are red No one ever dies there No one has a head Ahhhahhhahhahh Some say she's from Mars Or one of the seven stars That shine after 3:30 in the morning WELL SHE ISN'T She came from Planet Claire She came from Planet Claire She came from Planet Claire Ahhhahhhahhahh "Planet Claire," the B52's Jamie [jwz@cmu-cs-spice] ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 1985 11:05-PDT Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #291 From: Craig E. Ward > Yet another episode had the father of a family travelling west, > who are stranded in the desert running out of water and needing > medicine for their son, somehow falling into the present and > getting the needed water and penicillin. I think the son, who > survived only due to the penicillin, eventually became someone > famous. No, he got aspirin from an isolated diner. (How many realize that aspirin was first marketed in the nineteenth century)? ------------------------------ From: berman@isi-vaxa (Richard Berman) Date: 2 Aug 1985 1010-PDT (Friday) Subject: No Alien Contact How many times have YOU been driving by a stranger's home and just decided to introduce yourself? Eh? Richard Berman ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Aug 85 1102-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #305 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 5 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 305 Today's Topics: Books - Bischoff & Delaney & Hubbard & Lee & McKillip & Road to Corlay & Guardians of the Flame, Films - Back to the Future, Miscellaneous - Quote Source & SF Westerns & Gravity & Overpopulation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 17:02:13 PDT From: Will Duquette Subject: The Gaming Magi THE DESTINY DICE & THE WRAITH BOARD by David Bischoff This is not so much a review as a note of appreciation. Also, there is little in the way of spoilage here. These books, along with an as yet unpublished third book, comprise The Gaming Magi trilogy. The stories are set in a multiverse (which, of course, includes earth), the foundation of which is gaming. Gaming? Another book about Gaming? ARRRRRRGH! Actually, it's an interesting concept, as opposed to being another straightforward D&D ripoff (such as Quag Keep, by Andre Norton). There are a number of interesting characters, such as the lovely Alandra and her Runes, the somewhat malformed Ian Farthing, and the great gaming magi, Crowley Nilrem. In addition, the books are filled with bad jokes, obscure references, and relatively strange goings on. Most of the real action takes place in a region that is kind of a great cosmic drain for the rest of the multiverse, and suitably odd things show up there. They might perhaps be a little too cute for some, but if you're into whimsy and obscure references, you will enjoy it quite a bit. Will Duquette ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 17:46:29 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: Dhalgren reader anticipates flames Rick Schieve asks if anyone has read Sam Delaney's DHALGREN all the way through, whether the ending is any better, etc... Well, I've read through DHALGREN either 3 or four times. I'm not sure I can answer the other questions, but I felt it was worth the re-reading, just as rereading BOOK OF THE NEW SUN was. Other more obscure but interesting Delaney includes HEAVENLY BREAKFAST, a mostly autobiographical short novel of Delaney's life/times/ experience in the rock group/commune of the same name, and THE TIDES OF LUST, deliberately erotic/pornographic (mild but highly descriptive). On the other hand, I'm in no hurry to buy the newest Neveryonia book, even in paperback (although I liked the previous two more than not). Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!dts@topaz.arpa (Danny Sharpe) Subject: Re: Music AND Science Fiction - Battlefield Earth Date: 2 Aug 85 17:29:17 GMT root@bang.UUCP writes: >L. Ron Hubbards latest epic; "Battle Field Earth" comes complete >with ads for the 'dynamic' musical score that he wrote for the >book. I guess you're supposed to play the record while reading the >novel. > >Has anyone heard the music? Is it any good? The book itself was >mediocre, I can guess what the music must be like. I've got the album. I ordered it from the ad in a friend's book because it listed Chick Corea as one of the performers. I don't have anything good to say about it. I've put it in my musical humor collection next to the Temple City Kazoo Orchestra album. It's not something to be taken seriously. I had next to no desire to read the book, having dismissed it as trivial space opera. After hearing the album I have even less desire to read it. Danny Sharpe School of ICS Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!dts ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 17:35:34 pdt From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Lee Thanks for recommending "Day By Night"! I loved it. (This is a book by Tanith Lee, sort of like Roger Zelazny's Jack of Shadows, but both more plausible and more speculative) Paths to topaz don't seem to work for me, so here is some publishing info which may help: Don't Bite The Sun - DAW UE1486, 0-87997-486-9, Feb 76 Drinking Saphire Wine - DAW UE1565, 0-87997-565-2, Jan 77 I have one spare copy of Don't Bite The Sun. -s ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:07:13 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Patricia McKillip Having just returned from Mythcon XVI (an otherwise BORing convention, Alas. Last year's was much better. Being held on a midwestern semi- Fundamentalist seminary didn't help it any) at which PMcK was Guest of Honor, I have a complete listing of all her books (my comments in []): The House on Parchment Street (1973) [juvenile ghost adventure. fun.] The Throme of the Erril of Sherill (1973) [pure silliness. lots of fun.] The Forgotten Beasts of Eld (1975) [my favourite. enchantress, mythic beasts.] The Night Gift (1976) [depressing juvenile: kids restore a run-down house as a gift for a suicidal friend] Riddle Master of Hed (1976) [see below] Heir of Sea and Fire (1977) [the best of the trilogy] Harpist in the Wind (1979) [this, with last two books, her most familiar works. Spotty, some great stuff, some bad.] Stepping from the Shadows (1982) [fascinating semi-autobiographical story of woman haunted by the powerful and erotic figure of the Horned God.] Moonflash (1984) [her first SF story. somewhat less than great; doesn't take advantage of some of the intersting story possibilities she provides herself with. she should stick to fantasy.] Happy reading, y'all! Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 11:30:18 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Road to Corlay There's a SEQUEL?? Title? Date? Aside from that, comments about the first book. Ye Gods, how depressing and beautiful it was! Appealed to my Celtic melancholy. With enough strange plot devices to make it interesting. Yet you say the sequel isn't as good? Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 11:50:54 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Guardians of the Flame (A Flame!) Whatever bad things Silverbob may have done, you can't ascribe this turkey to him, nor does he deserve it. I grant you, I can't give the author's name at the moment (it's something like Greenbaum?), but he also had an article in Writer's Digest telling how to make your fantasy stories live. Unfortunately, he doesn't believe in any of the things he's writing about, so none of them can "live". Besides that, the books are trash. The never-ending D&D game, indeed! With obviously contrived devices to make the story *meaningful* -- growing relationships, dealing with motherhood, delivering moral lectures (SPOILER immediately follows) to the evil, egotistical professor who gets them into the game-world in the first place. (End Spoiler). Pure garbage, poorly written (but trying REAL HARD to sound good), taking 4+ books to say what could have been said in half that number, or better still, not at all. If you really want decent Adventure Gaming in SF&F, I recommend Dream Park by Steve Barnes and Larry Niven. It's about a future theme park (a la Disneyland) where adventurers participate in real-time games, with themselves as characters (though they put on character personae). Monsters and bad men, strange and interesting subplots, REAL GODDAMMIT characters (!) not stereotypical college students (though there are students in it as I recall), mystery, murder, and (deep breath) the South Sea Cargo Cult!! Lots of fun, well written. Ahem. Flame off. Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Back to the Future (spoiler) Date: 30 Jul 85 22:48:26 GMT A number of articles have appeared recently trying to explain BttF in terms of multiple timelines. THIS DOESN'T WORK. When Marty starts changing the past, the effect is immediate (although slow) on what has been brought back -- initially the picture, and eventually Marty himself. The only way I can see to reconcile this with the ending is to assume that the Marty who remembers his father being a wimp, etc., will fade into the one who is the result of his intervention. This process simply hasn't become noticeable yet at the end of the movie. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 11:37:21-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: What I tell you three times is true >Does anyone know where "I tell you once, I tell you twice, what I >tell you three times is true" is from? ``Just the place for a Snark!'' the Bellman cried, As he landed his crew with care; Supporting each man on the top of the tide By a finger entwined in his hair. ``Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice: That alone should encourage the crew. Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice: What I tell you three times is true.'' Lewis Carroll ``The Hunting of the Snark'' Fit the First You should all be happy to hear that I've refrained from proving my point (``The proof is complete if only I've stated it thrice'') by sending three copies of this message to the net. Evan Kirshenbaum ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA UUCP: {decwrl,sun,hplabs}!glacier!evan ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 12:10:42-PDT From: Douglas M. Olson Subject: SF Westerns Sorry, missed this the first time around. My favorite SF 'Western' is John Jake's SIX GUN PLANET. (YES. Its the same John Jakes you're thinking of. He STARTED with SF and did a fine job; other favorites are _Mention My Name in Atlantis_ and _On Wheels_.) Doug (dolson @ eclb.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:15 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Gravity... Gravity has been a fun topic in SF for years, and a thorn in the side of physicists too. Consider this: No one knows how or why gravity works, it just does. Albert says it is because matter warps space, but he still left it as an inherent property of matter. Matter just likes to clump together. This leaves writers a lot of room to wave hands. The only way to create gravity is to gather matter together. There is only one conversion process to transform gravity into another form of energy, and that is going downhill, which converts the gravitational potential into kinetic energy. Even this is not really using gravity, because gravity is defined as just storing the energy used to elevate matter in the first place. Likewise for all forms power generated from gravity, like hydroelectric; they are just manifestations of the energy that was used to raise the medium in the first place. In the case of hydro, the sun evaporates the water which then rises and falls above the dam. There is no use of gravity alone. It requires a medium to work with, i.e. matter. Many SF stories assume some form of gravitic power or locomotion. There is no basis for this in science. No one has a clue how to do anything even remotely associated with this topic. Gravity is just there, and matter is the only thing it affects. Mind you, most everything we have is matter, so that's no small effect, but it is still limited to a single direction (actually it's a vector sum, but no difference). I believe HG Wells was one of the first to use the concept of anti-gravity with his invention of Cavorite. They used it to fall up to the moon. A story rife with scientific inaccuracies, but what do you expect at the turn of the century? Antigravity is the simplest form of being able to control the magnitude and/or direction of the gravity force vector. A gravitic drive would be a more complex manifestation of the same principle. How would it work? If one could change the direction of the gravity vector, then travel near massive bodies becomes a snap. Try changing the gravity vector out in deep space and see what it gets you. Gravity is another of the distance squared drop offs. It fades fast. And we don't know how much is reaching us from the Milky Way, since we can't go anywhere else and measure. It might be that there is a large gravity force throughout the universe, but since everything is orbiting something, it isn't noticeable to us. A gravity drive could be useless anywhere away from a massive body. Assume we could create a point source of gravity though. That would be an awesome ability. Virtually any sizable force would be useful (enough to create a pull of over 1/4 g). Create it reletive to a ship and that ship will fall along the path intended. It would be fairly simple to maneuver if the force could be dynamically controlled, otherwise it's a planning problem of when to slow down and where to turn. A powerful one would make a dandy weapon too. Larry Niven had pirates pulling little black holes around with magnets (dump a bunch of ions into a hole and it can get a mighty powerful charge) to nab hyperdrive ships. Imagine if you could create a black hole. Once it got enough matter, you could turn off your machine and it would continue to grow. Once again you would need matter, but this would collect it. Enough power and you might be able to counteract a black hole (where would you get that much power?) by balancing the forces. On a smaller scale, crushing metal would be easy. At any rate, speculation could run on forever. There are, at this time, no answers and a lot of questions. We should all push for more experiments along these lines. Most major experiments have had to be conducted in the confines of the earth's gravity well. Now we are able to escape that, somewhat, with the space shuttle. We need a better understanding of this fundamental force if we to ever unify the field theory, or escape this little ball of dirt we were born on. Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa The National Magnetic Fusion Energy Computer Center at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in sunny Livermore California ------------------------------ From: sesame!slerner@topaz.arpa (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner) Subject: overpopulation and survival Date: 30 Jul 85 02:35:31 GMT > Thus, colonization is an ineffective method of removing population > pressure. One thing will work however: internal control, such as > China's. I won't go so far as to advocate out-and-out eugenics, > because that can backfire magnificently (witness Dorsai! and > "Space Seed"/"The Wrath of Khan"). However, we'd better start > doing something to curb population pressure, or good ol' Mother > Nature/Human Nature will grab the ball and run. Soil depletion in > the cradle of civilization, Africa. World War Three. Famine in > inner India. Inner city violence in North America and Europe. > Read the play Our Town sometime, or the last portion of TEFL, and > contrast with a current city. Living without locks on the doors? > Leaving valubles in an open car? Walking through Central Park > *After Dark?* Good Lord, its positively UnAmerican!!! And there's > always mass insanity of course. > > I'm going to stop before this gets too depressing. There is one > thing I can have hope in: once a permanent, self-supporting, > off-Earth colony is established, Man is unlikely to die out. The > catch is that societies don't work towards their own long term > survival. Individuals do, and this creates societies as a side > effect. Philosophers are more comfortable when they have plenty > of paper and a free meal ticket. They don't like standing behind > a plow. A quick survey: How many of you out there would drop *everything* to work on the chance to establish a self-supporting off-Earth colony, given a chance to colonize there in exchange? I mean give up your careers, your homes, everything! (I know that it is easier to talk than act, after all I'm still here :-) ) Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner {genrad|ihnp4|ima}!wjh12!talcott!sesame!slerner {cbosgd|harvard}!talcott!sesame!slerner slerner%sesame@harvard.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 85 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #306 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 306 Today's Topics: Books - Rosenberg, Music - Hawkwind & More SF and Music, Miscellaneous - Aliens (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 13:06:58 EDT From: Jim Hofmann Cc: busch!mte@topaz.ARPA Subject: That's Joel Rosenberg not Silverberg Moshe Eliovson writes that Robert Silverberg is the author of Guardians of the Flame while my edition says it is Joel Rosenberg. Unless I wrong, Silverberg does not write under any pseudonym. This book isn't exactly a transcription of a D&D game rather the story of 6 games players who find themselves transported to a parallel universe in which the rules of D&D are present but they have since given up gaming since death is all too real. Rosenberg holds no sacred characters and kills one off early in the book. I got this one accidently from SFBC when I failed to send in the reply form and was about to send it back when I read the blurb. Having no previous experience with the Fantasty genre (Well, LOtR, Pern, Brust and 1st volume of TC series) I looked through it to see what it was all about. Soon, I found myself reading it. At first I wasn't impressed by Rosenberg's writings (very Heinlein influenced) because the characters seemed carboard and shallow. It wasn't evident until the second story in the series that this shallowness was intended by Rosenberg and after many adventures the characters matured and deepened. Now I am on the third book, the Silver Crown, and am enjoying myself. It is not your standard fantasy novel where good journeys through the evil lands to eradicate the darkness. Rather the good guys try to wipe-out a system similiar to America before the Civil War. Enough said. Jim Hofmann ------------------------------ Date: Fri 2 Aug 85 16:33:09-GDT From: Andy Cobley Subject: Hawkwind's Science Fiction in Music Cc: alan%dct@ucl-cs.arpa [I'm forwarding this for a friend (A.Cobley%Dundee@UCL-CS) Apologies for the formatting --- Alan Greig ] With regards to the discussion of sf in music somebody mentioned HAWKWIND, being a great HAWKWIND fan I scuttled of to my record collection to compose a suitable list of HAWKWIND tracks that are related to sf.This list follows after this preamble, for those of you who cant be bothered to read it all but would like some recommended albums to get a taste of what the starship hawkwind is all about here are three for starts:- The Space ritual.(United Artists) This is a double live album recorded in 1973 on there legendary Space ritual tour. Warrior on the edge of time Recorded in 1975 this album contains some poems by Michael Moorcock as well as some of HAWKWIND's best tracks. Quark,Strangeness and Charm. This was the last Hawkwind made with poet Bob Calvert, it was recorded in 1977.Now for the list X in search of Space.1971 Master of the universe. This track crops up all over the place and is essentially god (or some creator) telling us how disappointed he is with our performance so far.The album also came with a booklet telling the story of the starship Hawkwind but unfortunately because of time distortions the dates are not in order. Doremi fasol latido.1972 Brainstorm. Possibly sf possibly not, difficult to decide because of the obscure and difficult to hear lyrics. Space is deep.A song about how vast space is. Down through the night. I think this ones about suspended animation to travel to other stars. Lord of light. I believe that this song is based on a book by somebody but i'm not sure who.It seems to be about weird goings on on a hill and people joining together ever seven years. Time we left this world today. Generally about the bad state of the world and its time we left to find a bit of peace from the 'thought police'. The watcher. Another song bemoaning the state of the world only this time some alien race are threatening to blow us all up if we don't clean our act up The Space Ritual.1973 This was alive album and contains much of the Doremi fasol Latido tracks as well as others. Side one seems to be the tale of a trip (of some sort ) opening with 'Born to go' containing lines like :- We were born to blaze, A new clear way through space, A way out of the waste, To help the human race. This leads into Down through the night (see above) and ends with 'The Awakening' which is a poem by Bob Calvert about landing at your destination and the awakening from suspended animation. The black Corridor.This is a poem by Michael Moorcock taken from the book of the same name,and is generally about the cold unfeelingness of space. 10 seconds of forever.Another poem, this time relating the thoughts of a person during the last ten seconds leading to take off. Sonic attack.Yet another poem, again by Michael Moorcock involving frantic rantings about what to do in the case of a Sonic weapons based attack, 'Do not Panic Do not attempt to rescue friends relatives or loved ones Think only of your self, only of your self' etc Warrior on the edge of time.1975 This album is concerned more with Science Fantasy rather than the space based earlier work. The wizard blew his horn.A poem by MM again this time relating to the calling of a champion to save the earth from some disaster or other. Magnu.Again a song calling for help but this time for the horse MAGNU, a magical beast that can travel not only the earthly paths at great speed but other unknown paths as well. Standing on the edge.Another MM poem, about the despair of some soldiers waiting on the edge of time for something or other. Spiral Galaxy 28948.An instrumental but mentioned here for its title. Warriors.This continues on from 'Standing on the edge' but is much more positive. Kings of speed.Invitation to take a trip on Frank and Beasleys rocket ship, step this way lads it aint no lie, we can turn you into the human fly. Astounding sounds, Amazing music.1976 The only piece of note on this disappointing album is 'stepenwolf' a rather long song concerning the madness of being a werewolf that has a very gothic atmosphere. Quark,Strangeness and Charm 1977 Spirit of the age.This is split into two verses, the first concerning the plight one space traveler finds himself in when his 'android replica' of his girlfriend breaks down and starts moaning 'anothers name'. The second verse concerns a clones desire to be an individual. Damnation Alley.Based on Roger Zelazny's book tells the tale of a post nuclear war trip across america much better than the horrendous film supposedly based on the same book. Fable of a failed race.In a post nuclear desert legends have grown up around the war that caused the wasteland to the point of considering the bombs to be the fathers of the race. PXR5 1978 Jack of shadows.Again based on a Roger Zelezny book of the same name. Uncle sam's on mars.Written around the time of he viking landing on mars this song bemoans the fact that man can put a ship on mars to look for life but cant feed its own people let alone control the pollution that threatens to turn earth into a parady of mars. Infinity.Story of man trapped by a beautiful witch into a crystal eternity. Robot.Parallels robots to the suburban man of today. 25 years on. 1978 Psi power.Tells the tale of a person with psi power and his rejection of it, 'its like a radio you cant turn off, I'd like to live inside a lead lined room and leave all this psi power behind.' The only ones.This song ties in with the tour concept of a factory where people must work their way to the top in order to escape and set up a life of there own. The age of the Micro Man.Generally about the way people today don't look at the whole scene only the details. Levitation.1980 Levitation.Song about how great it is to be able to levitate. Space chase.Instrumental Sonic attack .1981 (contains a rework of the Sonic attack poem (see above)) Living on a knife edge.The dangers of database's and police observance systems Coded languages.Lyrics written by Michael Moorcock about a race of people able to kill using words (or is it a political statement???) Disintegrate.short song about blowing up at a pretimed place and time. Church of Hawkwind.1982 side 1 space Angel voices.The voices heard in the command centre of a space ship Nuclear Drive.Starship lands and takes you away for a ride Star cannibal.Race of people use earth(or some other planet ) as a feeding ground,we being the food. The phenomenon of luminosity.This sounds like a recording of astronauts talking over a backing track.If any one recognizes the following please tell me what mission it was from and what they are describing. 'I'd like to describe what i've got here, i'm near a mass of small particles that are lit up like there luminescent, i never saw anything like it, there around the moon ,there coming by the capsule, a whole galaxy of little stars.' Fall of earth city.The earth is completely enclosed by a city, mind control is used by the rulers until a ancient tomb is opened, bringing chaos and freedom for the subjects of the earth. Choose your masks.1982. Arrival in utopia.Arriving in utopia we find its not all its cracked up to be. Farenheit 451.Based on the book by Ray bradbury For more info get in touch with one of the following ( send stamped addressed envelope) Hawkwind Feedback 29 Cordon Street, Wisbech, Cambs, PE13 2LW England. (newsletter) or Trevor L.Hughes, Zephyr, PO Box 6 Wallasey, England. (specialist in rare records and free newsletter) From A.cobley via Alan Grieg. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 13:06:58 EDT From: Jim Hofmann Cc: busch!mte@topaz.ARPA Subject: Music in SF Let me put my two cents into the SF-Music discussion. I read The Stand by King about 5 years ago and still remember how he wove the words from rock songs into the story. For instance, the Led Zep tune "Going to California" has a line about "There's a lady out there/plays guitar with flowers in her hair" This corresponded to the old lady who gathered the forces of good together via their dreams by playing guitar on her porch. There was also a line about someone blowing their nose in this song that corresponded to the symptoms of the plague that destroys 95% of the population. Other songs used for imagery were: Jungleland - Springsteen ("they reach for a moment and try to make a STAND/ but they wind up wounded not even dead") Evil Woman and Peaceful Easy Feeling - Eagles (describes the bride to be of the Devilman and their mating in the desert) A couple tunes by America - (can't remember these - anybody else know?) I can see for miles - Who (describes the Devilman's ability to project his eye out and spy on the good guys) There were lots more - "Stairway to Heaven" was one although I forget the context. The use of these songs reminded of the lyrics in Lord of the Rings which were sung by the good guys as they marched into the Heart of Darkness. A lot of these songs were thinly disguised prophecy and King seemed to be saying a lot of the Rock songs could be taken as prophecy also. Jim Hofmann ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 85 17:01:10 EDT From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: why nobody's visited Remember the classic SF short that theorized that detecting which stars had habitable planets was such a trick that one extremely advanced civilization never found it and finally just died out since there was no point wandering over those vast distances just to find a habitable world. I believe they actually sent out a few scouts but gave up when none of them found anything. The plot involves a less advanced race that had stumbled on the secret trying to figure out what happened to this dead race by reviving individuals from their remains and quizzing them. This seems so likely (except it probably isn't possibile to detect which systems are worth visiting, not merely hard) that I don't find it the least bit surprising that we haven't been visited. ------------------------------ From: utastro!ethan@topaz.arpa (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Why would 'they' visit us? Date: 2 Aug 85 14:39:36 GMT > Seeing as we are out on one of the arms near the edge of a 'small' > galaxy we probably haven't been visited because we haven't been > found. Its like why don't people go to small towns way off the > beaten track. Because the roads either are non-existent or in need > of repair. If there is a method to FTL travel and it requires a > receiver at the other end to arrive at. It could be an airport or > a port or some sort of machine, maybe even some amount of mass to > lock onto or a beacon of some sort. Maybe when we get out there we > will find out that there is a huge interstellar civilization but > the 'road to SOL' is a bumpy one (maybe a Bob Hope XX Bing Crosby > XX movie in 2300) and they aren't coming here till we get it > fixed. When the first slow boat travels get out there and come > back with the beacon maybe then we will get more travelers coming > here. On the other hand, if there is no way to go FTL (which seems at present more likely) then this argument doesn't make much sense to me. If all you can do is visit the nearest few stars then that's what you'll do. This will tend to spread a spacefaring race everywhere. If you live in Hoboken and can only walk then some people will walk to Bayonne. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ To: Hank.Walker@cmu-cs-unh.arpa Subject: Re: visible civilization Date: 02 Aug 85 17:19:40 PDT (Fri) From: Alastair Milne > The California Aqueduct and Great Wall are visible from the Moon. > At night, it is quite easy to see civilization's lights from high > orbit. Of course by galactic standards, that's a "relatively low > height." I didn't think the Great Wall was visible from that high, though I could certainly be wrong. I also don't know how much they look like the artifacts of civilisation, rather than spontaneous occurrences. You are quite right about the lights at night, though. I forgot all about that. I understand that flaming oil towers in Libya are easily visible at night, and the Europe and parts of North America are ablaze. Although one would have to investigate the source of the light to see if it were produced by civilisation. I imagine similar patterns of light could be seen on highly volcanic planets. But, as you say, the moon's orbit is at a relatively low height (in fact a fantastically low height) by galactic standards. And that was my main point. In order for extraterrestrials to visit us, they first have to find us, which, because of the unbelievably tiny fraction of the galaxy's -- never mind the universe's -- volume we occupy, will likely be so extremely difficult as to be virtually impossible. Barring, of course, technologies that could give them effective planet-detection capabilities, and swing the odds considerably. But, not having them ourselves, it's hard to say anything about them. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 85 0949-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #307 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 307 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & MacCaffrey & Rosenberg & Tepper & Bar Stories, Films - Cocoon & Lifeforce, Television - The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Gravity & Aliens (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nte-scg!phil@topaz.arpa (Phil Trubey) Subject: Re: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren Date: 31 Jul 85 18:00:31 GMT > Dhalgren was mentioned in another posting. It is one of the few > Sci-Fi books I gave up half way through in discust. Has anyone > read it all the way through? Is the ending any better? Or does > it just keep rambling on and on..... I actually did read it all the way through ... mostly because I kept hoping that I would figure it all out sooner or later. I didn't. Has anybody out there read any Delany and figured even some of it out? Recently I finished _The Einstein Intersection_ and decided that at least there was hope for this book ... but it may take another reading... Phil Trubey Northern Telecom Electronics Ltd. Ottawa, Ontario Mail path: ...decvax!utcs!bnr-vpa!nte-scg!phil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 23:29:22 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Music in SF >From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM >One story that I haven't seen mentioned is: >Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?) May St. Patrick forgive you for the mortal insult to Erin. I will struggle to do the same. I concede that McCaffrey may be a 'low taste' writer, but she can at least imbue her characters with some personality--something at which Cherryh fails utterly. I saw an announcement in the last few weeks that a sequel to *Crystal Singer* will soon be out. The title has the protagonist's name in it, so it's *Killashandra [something]*. In Crystal Singer, I felt that perhaps we were seeing glimpses of the kind of thing McCaffrey can do when she's not being cutesy or something. (And, please, nobody point to *Moreta* as an example of anything.) Draconically, Paula ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 20:59:12 EDT From: Melinda Berkman Subject: Guardians of the Flame As I am sure several people will mention, Robert Silverberg did not write Guardians of the Flame. It would be difficult to imagine Silverberg writing something as non-depressing as this wonderful series. Joel Rosenberg takes the credit. He takes a plot that has been done horribly several other times, the "game players suddenly find themselves in the world of the game" shtick, and makes it work, in the process creating characters that are the most believable fantasy characters that I've found since Tolkien. But I don't think that this series could have been generated from a game-playing session. The obsession that motivates the characters simply isn't strong enough for the basis of the usual D&D campaign. Players seem to get restless if they're not saving the world. Just leading good safe productive lives, which is the goal of some of the characters in the series, is hardly the sort of thing that rouses the blood of weekend adventurers. Rosenberg's other book, Ties of Blood and Silver, is also very good. I cried at the end and then called my mother and told her the story, leaving out the nasty parts. You will have a good feeling when you finish reading this book. Melinda Berkman ------------------------------ From: chabot@amber.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) Subject: Re: Mavin Manyshaped Date: 3 Aug 85 01:28:22 GMT >> Has anybody read "The Revenants"? Is it as worthwhile as the >> True Game series? > While it doesn't really compare with the true game series > it is still a worthwhile reading. It is one of those macabre type > books that is intentionally confusing and mind warping as it deals > heavily with Deities and artifacts. I recommend it for Tepper > fans. Well, I recommend _The_Revenants_ for anyone. Moshe missed mentioning perhaps the most interesting feature: Tepper does interesting things with gender-- the protagnist is female and male by turns, unpredictably and uncontrollably. For a reason. I had a hard time putting it down. Don't worry about macabre--it's not nearly so bad as, say, an Orson Scott Card novel. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: Re: Tall Tales in a Bar Date: 2 Aug 85 19:42:36 GMT wjr@frog.UUCP (Bill Richard) writes: >> Nope, I am well aware of the _White_Hart_ and am sure there was a >> precursor in a SFnal or fantasy vein. If not Cabell, then >> someone else. But who?? >> >> Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) > I seem to remember seeing somewhere a book titled something >like _Tales from Gavagans Bar_ (sp?). I'm not sure of the author(s) >but it might have been Pohl & Kornbluth. Does this tickle anyones >memory? L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt. The complete list of books from the SF POLL is quite useful for answering questions like this. Please see my latest update to the Poll. Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo {allegra|clyde|linus|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins [Moderator's Note: The SF Poll alluded to in the above message was too big to put into a digest. It is available to anyone who can FTP files from Rutgers. The file name is T:SFPOLL.TXT. *PLEASE* do not request me to send it by e-mail as it is way too big. If you can't FTP you can't get it.] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 85 03:05:57 pdt From: michael@cit-vlsi (Michael Lichter) Subject: It was a Boojum, you see... I must say that 'Cocoon' displays some of the fuzziest thinking ever to hit the silver screen. I won't complain about Ron Howard's soppy soppy sentimentality. I mean, why bother? Now, we know that it was not accident that < < < SPOILER ( I guess ) > > > ILM produced a new set of aliens that carry a big set of floodlights around with them wherever they go, and look something like a cross between E.T. and our friends from Close Encounters (with some Tinkerbell thrown in, too). I guess what bothered me the most was that one of these aliens was a voluptuous Tahnee Welch and one a huge guy (sorry, whoever you are, I don't remember your name) and yet when they take off their micron-thick skins, they're all the same size and look exactly the same. Is she really female? Do they have sexes? Two? Five? There are a lot of arbitrary decisions about what the aliens can and can't do. They can travel across stars with their flying saucer (that's right!), yet they can't swoop down on the sea, pick up a few friends, and ride off into the sunset. Their people were stranded in the first place because they were a `ground crew' and yet there's no ground crew when the rescue crew takes off. I'm too disgusted to go on... Michael Lichter ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 3 Aug 1985 04:58:25-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: LIFEFORCE (review) This is long overdue. I wanted to give my opinions on LIFEFORCE a month ago, but wanted some time to think through just what I thought of it. Besides, I read and enjoyed the novel on which it was based --- Colin Wilson's THE SPACE VAMPIRES --- back when it first came out about 10 years ago, and I wanted to re-read it in order to see how close the movie was to the book. When I saw it, I was given one of those ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT rating cards, and I ended up giving the movie a "C". I thought it was an OK movie, but not as good as I'd hoped. Wilson, like Whitley Strieber later did in THE HUNGER, gave the vampire a science fictional rather than a supernatural background. Again, like Strieber, he had the vampires drain human's life force rather than blood. Wilson's novel was a mixture of criminal psychology, sex, alien invasion, vampirism, and a touch of Lovecraft. Tobe Hooper (the director of the film) took the superficial aspects of the novel and made a Grade B monster movie out of it. What is surprising is that Hooper (and writers Dan O'Bannon and Don Jakoby) was quite faithful to the ideas, concept, and many of the details of the novel. Nevertheless, the feel of the film was that of a simple monster movie. The story would have been fine, but I had three major quibbles. First, that Fallada, the Eminent Scientist, constantly leapt to wild conclusions about the aliens with no evidence to support him. The novel had such, but the details of his (and Commander Carlsen's) investigation were skimped over in the movie. Secondly, the vampires were dispatched in so hackneyed a manner. And thirdly, the whole Halley's Comet bit was just too topical. What bothered me about it was that it sets the movie in 1986 rather than some nebulous near future, which strained my credulity a little too much. Face it, we just don't have the technology for a manned trip to Halley's Comet. The acting, other than that of Fallada (played by Frank Finlay --- Porthos from the Musketeer movies) and Colonel Kane (Peter Firth --- whose name is familiar, but I can't place him), was abysmal. Marie Mayer, who played the lead vampire, wasn't a very good actor, but she had an unearthly (very appropriately) beauty that was quite striking. The special effects were uneven, but when they were good, they were spectacular! The animation of the corpses (especially the scene where one of the corpses fills out back into life while his victim shrivels up into a new corpse) was terrific. All in all, though I had some problems with it, there was enough in the film that I liked to feel that my time and money were not wasted. P.S. It struck me that the scenes of chaos in London were very similar to the end scenes in FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH. I wonder if Hooper meant this as an homage. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: The Devil at Hobbs End? Date: 2 Aug 85 18:00:20 GMT > And does anyone else have a small fear induced by TV/books/movies? > I get the heebie geebies whenever I'm in a dark heavily vegetated > garden. I'm afraid Miss Green Fingers from Night Gallery is going > to sprout up and get me. Good thing I don't believe it, but you > try and tell my fear glands that. And it didn't save the fellow > in the last paragraph. > Jon Pugh The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved a grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl. I can barely remember the story, but it dealt with the parents trying to get rid of the doll, and it would show up in strange places after the attempt. I think the thing about it that freaked me out most, was that you (the viewer) never actually saw the doll move. It would just appear in certain places, with that twisted little face staring at you. Very effective. Very Serling. Anyone remember a little more about it? Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 85 12:59 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: And another thing... It is my firm belief that all the energy expended in the Big Bang has been stored away as gravitational potential and it will all be converted back into kinetic energy just before the next Big Bang. There is no other way, if the universe is a closed system like Albert says. Jon ------------------------------ To: Hank.Walker@cmu-cs-unh.arpa Subject: Re: visible civilization Date: 02 Aug 85 18:45:29 PDT (Fri) From: Alastair Milne > I'm told that the Earth is the brightest radio source in this > region of the galaxy, so finding it shouldn't be too hard if you > have radio telescopes. I'm certainly no expert, but if Earth is brighter than the Sun, in any band, I'll be very surprised. You might double check with your source, if you can; also about competition with Jupiter, and possibly Saturn. There is also the problem of the angular distance of Earth from the Sun, especially from very distant (ie much more than Alpha Centauri) stars. I've neither the time nor the inclination to go through the math, but I suspect it would be difficult, perhaps extremely so, to resolve Earth's signals from the Sun's. And remember, as I said in my first posting, to pick up any of Earth's signals at all other than natural ones (and I don't know whether there are any) you have to be within about 50 or 60 light years. I'm sure no such signals were generated anywhere on Earth more than 60 years ago, or perhaps 70, when the first crude recordings were done. And at 70 light years' radius, those signals, weak as they were to start with, must have attenuated miserably. So I would place 70 light years as the maximum radius at which Earth could be detected by radio telescopes, if it could be so detected at all. Alastair PS. Thanks for keeping the discussion going. This is rather interesting. ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: who's watching... Date: 31 Jul 85 02:52:00 GMT A few other people have suggested why we haven't been contacted by an alien race (benign, aggressive, or indifferent), so here are my 2 guilders. For the purpose of discussion, I'll ignore the possibility that we've been visited and just don't know it. Although this is likely, it's also dreadfully boring. Therefore, let's consider the evidence that alien intelligence exists. 1) there are only three logical numbers: 0, 1, and infinity. As a general rule, there are no 5 legged dolphins. There may evolve one, whereupon he will either die out or propagate his breed. It is very unlikely that his mutation will reach a steady number and coexist with normal dolphins. Applying this to intelligence: We exist, and consider ourselves intelligent. Therefore, either we are the ONLY intelligent race in the galaxy, or there are an infinite number of them in an apparently infinite number of galaxies in an apparently infinite universe. The suggestion that we are unique as an intelligent race doesn't hold water, as intelligence seems to be highly subjective. Apes are intelligent, but they seem very stupid, don't talk, and don't run around wearing three-piece suits (maybe they aren't so stupid... :-)). Dolphins seem to have a very high intelligence and may be the one other race on the planet which we might be willing to admit are self-aware. 2) purely statistical methods. There are x G-type stars visible from Earth in y area. Extrapolating the number af stars in the galaxy based on observation and galactic model, there should be *at least* z Earth-like planets in this galaxy. From there, things get shaky. IF life appears wherever possible, there should be at least (z- an arbitrary #) of intelligent races in the galaxy. No bets or suggestions have been made about whether they would be spacefaring. They may exist but not be outside their own solar systems. By that line of logic, in about 500 years, the neighborhood wil be getting plum crowded! The catch is, statistical method only states that within an arbitrarily large area there will be n intelligent races. They might be at "the other end of the {galaxy | spiral arm | universe | ...} for all we know. They might be running around at sublight speed. There is one way to find out where all these other intelligent species are living -- go there and find them. Anybody want to come with me when my Tardis gets out of the shop? orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Aug 85 1015-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #308 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 6 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 308 Today's Topics: Books - Bishop & Heinlein & Niven, Miscellaneous - Aliens (3 msgs) & Leaving Earth (2 msgs) & Creation Anaheim & 1985 vs 1955 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Aug 85 00:50:52 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: ANCIENT OF DAYS by Michael Bishop Michael Bishop's new novel ANCIENT OF DAYS (Arbor House, c1985, 354 pp in hardcover) is an extension of his very good novella 'Her Habiline Husband', originally published in Terry Carr's UNIVERSE 13. Bishop's Nebula-winning novel NO ENEMY BUT TIME dealt with the reactions of a modern human being living among his hominid ancestors in the Pleistocene. 'Husband' and DAYS turn this premise on its head, asking what would happen if an ancestral hominid suddenly appeared in our times. The novel is narrated by Paul Loyd, the proprietor of the only reputable restaurant in the small town of Beulah Fork, Georgia. One fine day, his ex-wife, RuthClaire, calls him up at work because a prowler is wandering around in the pecan orchard behind her house. A small town in Georgia is the last place anyone would expect the only surviving specimen of Homo Habilis to make an appearance, and it takes a while for the oddity of the situation to sink in... The fun (and eventually the tragedy) begins when Loyd foolishly gives away the secret, and he, RuthClaire and their mysterious guest find themselves in the center ring of a circus of anthropologists, television reporters, gossipy local townspeople, slick city folk, bible-thumping fundamentalists and the Klan. This is some of the funniest material that Bishop has written, yet it still manages to maintain the sensitivity that marks his best writing. The climax of the novel is rather curious -- the link it draws between our ancestors and ourselves is theological rather than scientific (so theological, in fact, that I expected to see a giant aerosol spray can appear...) and leaves much food for thought. I did have a few qualms about the story; they are much the same qualms that I had about ENEMY, and they mostly have to do with scientific plausibility. I do thoroughly recommend the book, though, especially to readers who like well-drawn characters and enjoy subtle satire. Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: que!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris DeVoney) Subject: Re: Green Hills of Earth Date: 3 Aug 85 20:05:06 GMT >BTW, Does anyone have the complete lyrics of Heinlein's "Green >Hills of Earth" I think the story appears in his _Past_Through_Tomorrow_ book which was published in the U.S. I also think the entire lyrics do not appear in this story. Chris DeVoney Que Corporation Indianapolis, IN voice: 317/842-7162 uucp: ihnp4!inuxc!que!chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 85 12:43:52 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Protector psychology >From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA: >Something has been bothering me about . . . Niven's . . . >Protectors. To remind people: human-origin Protectors are humans >infected with a certain virus. There are . . . physical changes. >. . The mental changes are superintelligence and a desire to >protect his/her relatives and/or humanity in general. >However, consider two sets of human protectors mentioned in the >Known Space series: >Truesdale and the protectors of Home: They decide to break out of >the hospital to spread the virus, killing the majority of the >population of Home (several million people). Many of these people >killed are their relatives. They do this to preserve humanity in >general in the long term, most of whom they are unrelated to (order >of 20 billion people). They seem to have no major qualms about >this. >Teela Brown and the protectors of Ringworld: She refuses to use the >solar flare/laser system to save Ringworld from imminent >destruction. Several trillion (?) "people" are going to die in a >few years, but she refrains because using the system would kill 5% >of the population. >So what gives? Is killing a few million relatives OK but killing a >few trillion hominids not? Is the kill- to-saved ratio the correct >parameter to consider? I don't understand. Any speculation? The point you raise is (superficially) valid. My advice to you: don't consider migrating to the Belt just yet; you haven't learned to Think It Through all the way. %) When Truesdale and the Brennan Monster leave Sol neighborhood, Truesdale leaves his Belter lover pregnant. Therefore, Truesdale-Protector *knows* he has descendants to Protect, just as Brennan-Protector does (including him, of course). During the course of the voyage (which took several years, you'll recall), Brennan modified the virus to where it was infective from one hominid to another, and did not require the vegetable vector. The very air of the ship Truesdale traveled in was infected. And no precautions were taken to prevent the free exchange of air when he was rescued, OR when he was landed and taken to the hospital. It was thus that the people who had rescued him became infected. It was merely a matter of *time* until all the humans on Home were exposed, and those who were not of the proper age were all going to die, anyway. Those who were of the proper age needed care during the incubation stage so that they could survive to help in the fight. Thus, all the residents of Home were either going to become Protectors or die of the effects of the virus anyway. And all the newly- changed protectors knew this--that they were effectively childless protectors already. As soon as Truesdale explained that they required a purpose in life, and descendants or surrogates to provide that purpose, they saw that they must adopt the human race or starve, and the Pak were coming to find homes for still-living true-Pak breeders. Remember at the end of the book, the reminder that if humanity needed protectors, that the atmosphere of Home was infected?? As for Teela Brown, her mate was the Ringworlder, so she obviously never had children during the 20 or so years between the departure of Louie Wu and his motley crew . So, she was doomed to starve from the moment she became infected--unless, of course, she emotionally accepted surrogate descendants. Naturally, she did; wasn't this the world she chose over Earth? And her Conan-type over Louis Wu? That she could not, herself, deliberately cause the death of her surrogate descendants is quite consistent with Brennan's behavior. But, just as Brennan was capable of arranging things so that Truesdale would infect himself at the proper time and go out to infect Home so that the majority of his descendants back in Sol system could be protected, so Teela was capable of seeing the necessity for the death of an admittedly large number, but small *percentage* of her surrogate descendants in order to ensure the survival of the majority. She could see it was necessary, and could rig Louis Wu to do it *for* her; she just couldn't do it *herself*. Protectively, Paula ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: visible civilization Date: 3 Aug 85 18:00:16 GMT > From: Alastair Milne >> The California Aqueduct and Great Wall are visible from the Moon. >> At night, it is quite easy to see civilization's lights from high >> orbit. Of course by galactic standards, that's a "relatively low >> height." >> >> I didn't think the Great Wall was visible from that high, though >> I could certainly be wrong. I just recently read an article (somewhere) by a shuttle astronaut (someone - boy, this lack of references sure doesn't substantiate my story, does it?) that tried looking for the Great Wall once he was in orbit. He claimed that he could only find it with great difficulty, and while purposely looking for it through the shuttles telescopic cameras. (The first thing he thought was the Great Wall turned out to be a river....) Thought I'd pass that along... Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: visible civilization Date: 3 Aug 85 18:06:14 GMT > From: Alastair Milne >> I'm told that the Earth is the brightest radio source in this >> region of the galaxy, so finding it shouldn't be too hard if you >> have radio telescopes. > I'm certainly no expert, but if Earth is brighter than the Sun, > in any band, I'll be very surprised. You might double check with > your source, if you can; also about competition with Jupiter, and > possibly Saturn. > > There is also the problem of the angular distance of Earth from > the Sun, especially from very distant (ie much more than Alpha > Centauri) stars. I've neither the time nor the inclination to go > through the math, but I suspect it would be difficult, perhaps > extremely so, to resolve Earth's signals from the Sun's. I'm not expert either, but I am a graduate student in Astronomy, and Alastair is right, I'm afraid. Jupiter is much brighter in the radio (or anything!) region than the Earth, and Jupiter would be quite difficult to resolve from the Sun unless someone out there had VERY good resolution on his/her/its radio scope. Also, if Jupiter was resolved separate from the Sun, that would mean someone out there wanted to check us out rather than give us a casual once-over...does this mean that we're the subject of someone's research project? (Incidently, for anyone who cares at all, one of the reasons that Jupiter is brighter than the earth in the radio region is due to the internal heat that it generates. A hot, gaseous object like Jupiter would stand out like a sore thumb next to a cold, lump of slag like the Earth...) Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 85 21:25 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: advanced races The term "advanced" implies that evolution is a ladder, when it can be cogently argued (i.e., by Stephen Jay Gould) that it is a tree. You are not more *advanced* than a duck-billed platypus, you are just *different*. Aliens will be looking for something that is attractive to them, based on their frame of reference; there is no assurance whatever that their motivations will make any sense to us. ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Why Leave Home At All? Date: 2 Aug 85 17:45:55 GMT Jon Pugh: >> So we must look ahead, beyond our petty little ball of dirt. If >> Mankind is to survive, we must take to the stars. Ron Cain: >When we can harness energy sufficiently well to accomodate all the >people we already have and can establish a homeostasis on this ball >of dirt so that it is a stable place -- then, and only then would I >say we had earned the right to leave. I find both these attitudes equally annoying. Of course we can survive here. And of course we can go to the stars. And we should do both. By whose standards do we have to "earn" a right to leave? Our own behavior and ideals are the only standards we have. If we run into someone out there with other standards, then we can talk about how much right we have to leave. If we wait for utopia first, we will wait forever. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Why would we go in to space Date: 03 Aug 85 23:39:16 PDT (Sat) From: Alastair Milne > Why would we leave this planet? > The several possibilities are: > 1. Exploration > 2. Colonization > 3. Escape > 4. Invitation > 5. Expansionist (Manifest Destiny) > 6. Dumb Luck (My favorite) It seems to me you overlook that most powerful of inducements: commercial gain. This, and the opportunity to extend national influence, were the primary reasons for the various European empires. Colonies were usually established so that the "mother" country could use the colonies' natural resources (and even establish a trade situation, where the ruling country would refine and manufacture goods to be bought by the colonies). Thereby would a developed country extend and vitalise its economy, while also extending its political power to remote areas around the world. Actually colonising, at least adequately to maintain a reasonable population of colonists, could be a serious problem. In many or most cases, there was only a limited number of people willing to go. There are, of course, great exceptions, like the Puritans driven to North America by religious persecution; or cases where willingness was irrelevant, like the original prisoners sent to Botany Bay, Australia. But think, for instance, of the various schemes tried by the French government to get colonists to go to New France, which promised primarily hard work and murderous winters. "Les Filles du Roi" comes prominently to mind. In most cases it would be the inveterate traveller, or the ardent explorer, who would go. For most people, considerable persuasion would be needed. > As human history has shown most discoverys of new territory (ie > the New World ) by early explorers other than Columbus has been > because people are looking for a better place to live.. As I think you may see from my previous paragraphs, I really don't agree. While I think you are wise to except Columbus (who was looking for a shorter, less expensive route for the Indian-European spice trade to follow), I think most of the rest of the great explorers should be exempted as well. Either, like Columbus, they had commerce in mind, or, like Magellan and Captain Cook, they wished to discover more about the world. Some, like Ponce de Leon, were after the Fountain of Youth, or the legendary Cathay. Certainly the population of Britain was not waiting for word from Cook of a miraculous land to which they could all move, bag and baggage. A miraculous land with which they could trade for fabulous goods and profits was more likely. Perhaps the need for land to support burgeoning populations will eventually be foremost in the motives for exploring space. But the operation will be fantastically expensive, and having it pay for itself, at least partially, will be a very attractive idea. I'm not being cynical, and I trust that, when there is urgent human need to be met, commercial considerations will be laid aside until they are met. But the fact is that commerce has been the driving force behind much of the most ambitious exploration so far, and it doesn't seem realistic to assume that will change. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Sat 3 Aug 85 17:34:43-PDT From: Stuart Cracraft Subject: Creation Anaheim 8-31->9-2 The SFCONS.TXT file doesn't list any real useful information for the upcoming CREATION ANAHEIM at the Disneyland Hotel. Does anyone know more information about it? Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Aug 85 21:19 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: 85/55 surprises Somebody asked what about 1985 would surprise somebody from 1955, and somebody else responded that it would be that the cold war was still on. Well, I just arrived from 1955 (I walked) and the big surprise is that it is still cold. I was in the Ground Observor Corps then (we filled the gaps in the Air Defense Command radar net, which was more gaps than net) and the question wasn't whether there was going to be a nuclear war, it was when. I for one was utterly astonished to see 1984 roll by. Incidentally, there was a now-forgotton Phillip Wylie novel about a mid-1950's nuclear exchange between the US and the USSR -- anybody remember the name? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Aug 85 0919-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #309 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 309 Today's Topics: Books - MacAvoy & Niven & Rite of Passage, Films - The Black Cauldron & Back to the Future, Music - ELO & Greg Bear & War of the Worlds, Miscellaneous - Generation Ships & Visible Civilizations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Aug 85 15:39 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: The Book Of Kells, by R. A. MacAvoy Cc: lzwi!psc@TOPAZ.ARPA (Paul S. R. Chisholm) mini-***SPOILER*** for those who care about such things. _The_Book_of_Kells_ is R. A. MacAvoy's newest book. Based on her previous work, I bought it instantly upon seeing it (which is rare for me) and I wasn't disappointed. The story involves a mysterious carved cross which enables people to move between the tenth century AD and the present. The main characters are a Canadian artist living in (modern) Ireland, a professor of Irish history of about that time (also in modern Ireland), and various people of tenth century Ireland, most importantly two survivors of a Viking massacre, a poet and the daughter of a stone carver. (The stone carver carved the cross mentioned above.) MacAvoy seems to know the Ireland of the tenth century, by which I mean the background is convincing (I don't know whether it's actually correct, but I don't really care either). I liked the fact that one of the characters from the present, the artist, has trouble with old Irish for the whole book. (A lot of books like this have a bit where they say "Fortunately, Fred had always been adept at language, and over the next two nights became fluent in Old High Swinese," which I've always felt was really stupid.) Some people will not like that fact that several not too important things are never explained, but I didn't mind. So, all in all, I thought this was a pretty good book. It's maybe not quite as good as _Rafael_, which was MacAvoy's previous book, but it's as good as her other stuff. Certainly anyone who liked her last book will like this one. (Incidentally, this is being marketed as a "Novel," not SF or Fantasy, so you might have to look in a different section of your local bookstore to find it. It comes complete with a really ugly painting inside the front cover, which looks very "mainstream." Don't let that put you off.) Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 85 11:52:41 pdt From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Tales in a bar Larry Niven's story about the light-sail traders comes to mind. The barmaid was named Louise. It can be found at the end of "A Hole in Space". -s ------------------------------ Date: Sun 4 Aug 85 03:33:13-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #297 Rite_of_Passage isn't strictly about a generation ship as they are not going anywhere, just flitting about between planets. Since I haven't seen a plug for it here in a while: For any one who has not yet read it, it is the finest science fiction work aimed at teenagers ever written (well, it's in the top 5 at least). I first read it in about sixth grade (I think), and I still reread it a couple of times a year (it doesn't take as long now). I've never heard of anyone (any age) who read it and didn't like it (A genuine No-Prize (remember them?) to the first person to correctly predict how many people are going to flood this board with postings rating RoP somewhere under Slavegirl_of_Gor). So if you haven't read it, do yourself a favor (it was just rereleased in paperback so you have no excuse). Evan Kirshenbaum ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI UUCP: {decwrl,sun,I-don't-know,I-don't-use-uucp}!glacier!evan ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@topaz.arpa (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Black Cauldron Date: 31 Jul 85 22:44:51 GMT chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Disney needed to work harder at the characterizations. With the >exclusion of the young boy here (also known as the Klutz with the >Golden Heart) and the funny looking thing called Gurgie (also known >as the Ewok Clone -- keep an eye on toy stores for this one, >folks...) I didn't care about anyone in the film. Well, not exactly a clone, since the character is in the books, which came out *long* before Star Wars.(Tho he may not have been *quite* so cute in the books) >The 'princess' was especially bad -- she reminded me more of Wendy >or Princess Leia than anything else, and seemed badly out of place. Actually, as I remember the books, the Princess *was/is* a lot like Princess Leia, so this is probably the place they remain most faithful to the books! >One of the fairy folk, also, looked suspiciously like Peter Pan. In >general, all of the fairy folk drove me up the wall -- I kept >making snide 'Wendy-bird' comments throughout every scene they were >in. They were just TOO cute for my taste -- stolen from both "Peter >Pan" and "Fantasia" simultaneously, they seem to have gotten the >worst of both... This is in fact really unfortunate since the fairie-folk in the books were more of the "little people"/"leprechaun" type rather than the cutesy winged sprite type. Oh Welll. -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua} !sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 85 15:56:24 PDT (Sunday) Subject: Back to the Future From: Couse.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA Bruce Leban writes: >"One thing I don't understand in either interpretation is the clock >in the Professor's house (at the beginning of the movie) which has >a man hanging off the face of a clock. Where did he get that >clock?"<<< The man hanging off the clock was Harold Lloyd, not the Professor. There was a scene in one of HL's classic silent movies from the '20s (I don't recall the name or exact year) where he gets stuck hanging from the hands of a clock. ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ir278@topaz.arpa (Paul Anderson) Subject: Re: Science Fiction in Music Date: 3 Aug 85 07:08:59 GMT snoopy@ecrcvax.UUCP (Sebastian Schmitz) writes: >How about: > >Virtually all the tracks on ELO's album "Time" > No kidding. The whole album itself is a science fiction story about a man from 1981 who is taken into the 21st century, and all the aspects of life there. Jeff Lynne's talent for presenting moods, ideas, and images with music alone is brought into full light on this LP. Stop the article here if you don't want to read a summary of the songs. From start to end: PROLOGUE - brief sound effects of swishing, roaring, etc to a background of cathedral-like music, sounding much like waking up in a new dimension or something, while an electronic voice tells of a "message from another time". TWILIGHT - song from someone who, after disorientation (twilight, see 'Prologue') finds himself in the future. The verses suggest he was brought there ("With your head held high/ And your scarlet lies/You came down to me/From the open skies","You brought me here but can you take me back again?") YOURS TRULY, 2095 - letter from someone far away from his love, telling of a computer he fell in love with because it was modeled after her, and its cold reactions. TICKET TO THE MOON - our hero ain't lucky in love and tries escaping to a new life elsewhere; this song is his confused, regretful farewell. THE WAY LIFE'S MEANT TO BE - our hero's amusement and grieving over how the world he knew in 1981 had turned out a century later (culture shock?) after getting to know the place. ANOTHER HEART BREAKS - this is a mytic, rhythmic instrumental. I'm not sure whats it about since I rarely listen to it. RAIN IS FALLING - Basically about wet weather, although some mention again of our hero missing his lost love, and the 21st century people offering him a way back. FROM THE END OF THE WORLD - I dont listen to this one much either, but seems to be about how hard it is for our hero to reach his distant love, and its starting to get to him. THE LIGHTS GO DOWN - Not a sci-fi song, more about how he's got to get back to his love in 1981. The music isn't spacey, so I suspect this is supposed to be a song he wrote while longing for her. My personal favorite. HERE IS THE NEWS - a humor song on the turbulent world of 2095. A few bad puns. 21st CENTURY MAN - song about how a man from 1981, for all his clever adaptions, simply isn't cut out for life in the 21st century and has to return (and oh what he has to tell eveyone when he gets back) HOLD ON TIGHT (the Coffee song) - this was more designed for commercial release (it was their main release from the album and became the theme song for the Coffee Achievers commercials), but carries the theme that, in the future world, or even out of it, really anything is possible if you keep faith. EPILOGUE - first a brief romanticized rendition of "21st century man" (as if a farewell reception), into which fade choruses of the word "Time", into which fade the same mystic sound effects of the Prologue (slipping between dimensions), into which a pattering note sequence repeats louder and louder and louder and louder and silence all at once, snapping the listener back into reality. I really didn't do the album justice with the above descriptions, they're pretty weak, but the music really does follow a thematic story that carries the listener off the world temporarily, then at the very end snaps him back into it. I recommend it for Sci-fi music fans. A must-buy for ELO fans. I would review Mission: a New World from _A_New_World_Record_, but Steve Stuart already did it better than I ever could. Paul Anderson sdcc6!ir278 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1985 03:52 EDT From: shades Subject: music in sf i have been waiting and waiting but no one yet has mentioned 'the infinity concerto' by greg bear. this is a fine book which uses a piece of music to transport people to a darker land. read it and enjoy. shades%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!royt@topaz.arpa (Roy M. Turner) Subject: Re: War of the Worlds Date: 5 Aug 85 00:56:16 GMT >From: Jim Hofmann >Sorry to differ with you, jeff, but I thought "War of the Worlds" >was one of the most nauseating, overdone pieces of tripe I've ever >heard. Unfortunately, I had two college roomates who would play >this garbage ad valium. They were jerks so I didn't really value >their opinion anyway and their musical tastes reinforced my >feelings. >... considering all the good groups from that time period (1978) >who couldn't even get a producer to listen to their music One of the people featured on the album (and I admit to being in the same category as your roommates, as I liked the album a lot...still, having no taste beats being a snob...(-: ) was from the Moody Blues...I will submit that they were a good group, of some little fame... > [ I'm talking about real music - punk ] Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...ahem, excuse me...that is the reaction I sometimes get when people mention that euphemism for noise...(see? two can be snobs!!) >The reason you can't find it in a record collector >store is because record collectors have good taste! Must be why I always see all those Barry Manilow and Ed Ames records at record collectors...and I always thought one reason you couldn't find something at a collectors was because 1) people liked the thing and didn't sell it to collectors, or 2) people bought the thing as soon as the collector got it in... >Nice flaming at you, ...and nice flaming back at you, Jim. Now go back and finish listening to the Sex Pistols... (And yes, I *am* in a nasty mood as I write this...you would be too if you had to go work on an AI project when the weather was nice outside!! (-: ) Roy Turner School of Information and Computer Science Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!royt ------------------------------ From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Generation Ships Date: 4 Aug 85 18:43:31 GMT Here is are some additions to the list of Generation Ship stories. Proxima Centauri Murray Leinster Aniara Harry Martinson The Space-Born E. C. Tubb The Voyage That Lasted 600 Years Don Wilcox Kenneth Crist Computer Vision Lab University of Maryland ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: visible civilization Date: 5 Aug 85 02:54:33 GMT demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes: >>I'm told that the Earth is the brightest radio source in this >>region of the galaxy, so finding it shouldn't be too hard if you >>have radio telescopes. >> >> I'm certainly no expert, but if Earth is brighter than the Sun, >> in any band, I'll be very surprised. You might double check with >> your source, if you can; also about competition with Jupiter, and >> possibly Saturn. >> >> There is also the problem of the angular distance of Earth from >> the Sun, especially from very distant (ie much more than Alpha >> Centauri) stars. I've neither the time nor the inclination to go >> through the math, but I suspect it would be difficult, perhaps >> extremely so, to resolve Earth's signals from the Sun's. > >I'm not expert either, but I am a graduate student in Astronomy, >and Alastair is right, I'm afraid. Jupiter is much brighter in the >radio (or anything!) region than the Earth, and Jupiter would be >quite difficult to resolve from the Sun unless someone out there >had VERY good resolution on his/her/its radio scope. Also, if >Jupiter was resolved seperate from the Sun, that would mean someone >out there wanted to check us out rather than give us a casual >once-over...does this mean that we're the subject of someone's >research project? > > (Incidently, for anyone who cares at all, one of the reasons that > Jupiter is brighter than the earth in the radio region is due to > the internal heat that it generates. A hot, gassious object like > Jupiter would stand out like a sore thumb next to a cold, lump > of slag like the Earth...) As I understand it, the things that make the earth stand out are the following: 1) It's very small and obviously associated with a star. This makes it clear that whatever it is, it's a planet. 2) In radio frequencies, it is analomously hot, and NOT on spectral lines. 3) At certain precisely defined frequencies, it is quite bright-- sometimes. Certain radio telescopes, when operated as radars, are very bright. If you look at the solar system from the right directions, there are three radio sources: two thermal ones, and something substellar which has a really weird radio spectrum: it has lines that are not emission lines, and it is really variable. If your detectors are sufficiently sophisticated, you should be able to "see" the earth. But you have to look at it exactly right. It occults over a very long period, and you have to be looking off of emission lines. This makes it difficult to find similar sorts of objects, compounded by the fact that we have only been doing this for about 20 years, so that only our very nearest neighbors could have noticed this. Someone on Sirius, however, wouldn't have too much trouble noticing that our system had something really strange in it. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Aug 85 1003-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #310 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 310 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Brust & Cherryh & Niven, Miscellaneous - The Problems of SF & Aliens (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: moorcock Date: 05 Aug 85 14:09:01 EDT (Mon) From: nancy@MIT-HTVAX.ARPA > I've just emerged from an extended tour of the works of Michael > Moorcock (the two Corum trilogies, the Elric series, and the > Castle Brass series), and I found them all quite enjoyable. The > story of the 'champion eternal' that bridges across all the > various series was one I was quite captivated by, and I especially > liked the way that while any individual series dealt with one > particular incarnation, fate would, at times (and in what seemed > to be to be a very logical manner, at all times consistent with > the 'laws' of that particular plane of the multiverse), throw a > few of the incarnations from other series into the picture. > > I'd like very much to read more sf with this feature (bug? :-)) > ... can anyone think of what other authors do this, and do it > well? The only one I can think of off hand is a Poul Anderson novel "Three Hearts and Three Lions". I can recommend this as a good read as well as being on the theme you're looking for. It's about a man who suddenly finds himself in the world of knights and ladies with no memory about himself. It seems he has a job to do, and everyone around knows who he is (but they don't know what he's planning to do) and they try to either help or hinder him based on what they know about him and which side they're on. Have fun. Nancy Connor nancy@mit-htvax ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: To reign in hell Date: 4 Aug 85 21:45:20 GMT I walked into my friend's room and I fall upon the new Ace edition of To Reign in Hell. "It's by Steven Brust!" I shout at my friend. Who's been holding out on me?!, I want to know. So, I open the book and after marvelling over Zelazny's five (5) line review over Yendi I'm impaled on a three page forward by this fantasy pseudo-deity. I was a bit thrown, since I was hoping for one of Steve's more earthy adventures, like Jhereg or Yendi, but I delved in eagerly anyway. Besides, the cover artwork was really nice. Unfortunately, I found what seems to be more of a study in (biblical?) fantasy than the enchanting marvelous adventure that I was expecting to be served up. I confess that I'm totally unfamiliar with the subject matter at hand, which according to Zelazny is related to two works, namely: Anatole France's Revolt of the Angels and Taylor Caldwell's Dialogues with the Devil. This should give you netlanders a notion of what the book is about if you've recognized these titles. (I did not.) So I read and as I am not so much into intrigue and masterplots I begin to wonder... Also, as G-d (Yahweh) is purported to be one of the "Firstborn" this contradicts a primary foundation for Jewish belief, which is, G-d was before all, everything, etc. and that G-d created the stuff of everything: time, matter, energy of which everything, including angels are made of. Now, I don't mean to drag fantasy into religion or to start a Judeo-Christian controversy here and I'm sure that wasn't the author's intent either; but I have temporarily concluded that To Reign in Hell is at least a semi-religious/philosophical work. If I haven't defined my question about the subject matter clearly enough I apologize. It may just be that this underlying feeling I have is due to the contradictory nature to my faith, although I do find the descriptions of the angels & devils very interesting. But before I resume my reading I'd like a clearer definition, perhaps from the author, concerning this book. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 5 Aug 1985 11:35:03-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: A Review I just finished this book, and wanted to share my reactions with you. I recommend reading it. A review of Forty Thousand in Gehenna, by C.J.Cherryh Gehenna is an earthlike planet with few indigenous lifeforms, the most noteworthy of which is a race of large lizard-like creatures called calibans, who construct elaborate systems of tunnels and mounds above and below the planet's surface. The first human colonists on Gehenna number nearly 40 thousand, including scientists, staff, and over 30 thousand cloned workers. The novel describes these first colonists and their descendants on this rather inhospitable planet, after the expected supply ships with reinforcements fail to arrive. While the Alliance of planets undergoes beaurocratic changes, the colony is left to mutate and adapt to existence on Gehenna without the modern conveniences of technology and the "benefit" of guidance from the Alliance. The book covers 300 years of human development on Gehenna, and the effects of off-world penetration on the maturing new society. Cherryh succeeds in describing these years by taking an in-depth look at one or two characters every few generations -- the result is a fast-paced novel full of sensitive characters closely bound by the plot. The lizards on Gehenna display abilities that come to light only as they and humans begin to interact in the effort to survive. They and the humans grow to accept and depend on one another, and to influence each other's development. The novel reevaluates our definition of an "intelligent species" and even questions our ability, as human beings, to objectively determine the "intelligence" of another race or species. Here's a short exerpt from an early chapter in the story: "Calibans had never made domes, her father said, until they saw the domes of main Camp; but they made them now, and larger and grander, raised great bald hills on this side and that of the Styx. Beyond them were the solid hills, the natural hills; and then the fields all checkered green and brown; and the rusting knot of giant machines -- and the tow, and the big, shining tower that caught the sun and fed power to the little cluster of domes before the graveyard and the sea..." Read and enjoy -- I did! ------------------------------ Date: Sun 4 Aug 85 22:31:45-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Re: Protector psychology To: mcdaniel@UIUCDCSB.ARPA Quite simple, really. The Home protectors didn't get the original form of Tree-of-Life, they got the engineered form developed by Brennan. Obviously Brennan mucked around with the DNA to suppress the bloodline-specific part of the protector makeup. Since he doesn't have any descendants on Home this isn't a problem for him. --Rob ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IX Date: 2 Aug 85 21:03:56 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY PART IX: Lack Of Criticism by Davis Tucker With a few notable exceptions, critical endeavors in the field of science fiction have been nonexistent. Book reviews tend to be short and to the point, and there are few literary journals that have science fiction as their bailiwick. What efforts we have seen have been notable more for the fact that they have actually been published, than for what they necessarily contain. Delany's "The Jewel-Hinged Jaw" and LeGuin's essays are exceptions, and there certainly are others. But it is interesting to note that virtually all of the science fiction criticism that has been penned has been by authors currently working in the field. And due to the sociological factors of their group, science fiction writers, even Delany and LeGuin, pull their punches and let people off the proverbial hook. I have yet to read anything more than mildly disparaging about Asimov's work by a science fiction author, and I wonder how that correlates with the fact that he edits one of the science fiction magazines. We cannot blame the authors who venture into this field - it's understandable that they will concentrate on works that they feel showcase the best of science fiction, and that they would avoid soiling their own nest by attacking someone else's work, a someone that they meet two or three times a year, possibly. Many of them may feel that there's quite enough infighting in science fiction as it is, and the last thing anyone who writes science fiction wants to do is disparage the field he has chosen. At best, it's difficult. The vast majority of critical work in the field is of the "How To" variety, which cannot really be considered criticism at all. There's a strong current of the old "He who can, does, he who cannot, criticizes" mentality in science fiction. For being such an intellectual genre compared to most, it's an interestingly anti-intellectual critical milieu. Very often the first response to adverse criticism is "Let's see you do better". This anti-critical attitude perhaps can be traced back to the first thirty years of science fiction, when critics either ignored or laughed at science fiction. To be brutally frank, science fiction has a large inferiority complex toward the rest of the literary world, and evinces a constant need to defend itself, glorify its accomplishments, attack its supposed enemies, intead of being secure enough of a field of endeavor to ignore the barbs and catcalls from outside. Science fiction has always craved legitimacy, and has rarely been accorded any. Book reviewers of major publications and newspapers rarely review science fiction novels. Science fiction is seen as juvenile and incomplete and insular, with some justification. Comparing it to other genre literature, such as mysteries, we find that although they both share insularity and an often narrow appeal, science fiction is less bounded by genre requirements than any other, and therefore should arguably have a greater attraction for critical attempts. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Has science fiction built such a wall around itself that no self-respecting critic will vault over it? Has the field grown so inbred and chummy and self-congratulatory that virtually no critics have emerged from it? I don't know the answer. I hope not, but I have nagging suspicions. By no means am I saying that science fiction needs literary criticism to be legitimized; although that is definitely a possibility. But criticism is important to any artform - it provides a framework for appreciation, it provides a means of greater understanding, and it most definitely provides practicioners with guideposts and arguments and avenues and explanations. Authors have serious problems with critics, and with the whole idea of criticism being a valid field of literature. There is tension and not a small amount of acrimony between writers and critics, and it will always be there and should always be there. Authors often forget that it's better to be terribly excoriated in print than simply ignored, that anything is preferable to being overlooked. Just as critics often forget that they have as much responsiblity to their craft as authors do to theirs, perhaps more. But science fiction, for one reason or another, is totally dominated by the author mentality, just as Broadway plays are generally dominated by the critic mentality. There's the science fiction paraphrase of the Republican's 11th Commandment - "Thou shalt not speak ill of thou fellow authors". Which is understandable. But there's no group of people who fill in the void, who provide their readership with accurate insights into the work behind the work, who tell readers what they can expect, and why or why not this work is any good. It will immediately be pointed out that virtually all of the science fiction magazines have book review columns. Besides the fact that these columns are written by authors, not critics, and the fact that they rarely run to any length whatsoever, it must be remembered that book reviews are the mere beginnings of critical effort. The baby's first steps. And I've never read a science fiction book review which remotely approached the caliber of the New York Times Book Review, with the exception of Delany's review of Thomas Disch's "Angouleme", a semiotic study more than a review, and Damon Knight on Blish's "Common Time". Science fiction fans should welcome critical effort in the field, if only because it makes authors take notice, and realize that what they are doing is being looked at with an objective eye. Even if you never read a critical essay in your life, you will benefit from the effect that it has on authors, publishers, and others who look at science fiction with different eyes. The strident defensiveness that characterizes science fiction's collective attitude toward criticism must give way to welcome, and eager courtship. There is no need to remain outside the pale, there is no reason why science fiction must enforce upon itself the ostracism it once endured unwillingly. This isn't just one man's opinion. Many important people in the field have stated as much, in some cases much more strongly. At any rate, tune in next week for the final installment: "THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART X: A Prescription For The Future". ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 85 09:56 EDT From: Operator Subject: The Aliens are coming! A couple of years ago The Praire Home Companion radio show had a 'drama' about aliens invading earth. It seems that the aliens had figured the best way to infiltrate the most households and take over the humans living there, was to disguise themselves as a common household object. Since the invasion was a winter campaign, the aliens diguised themselves as needles on christmas trees. Everyone knows how the needles drop off and seem to find their way to every room in the house. Now no explanation was given for the invasion. Perhaps the aliens were afraid Santa Claus wouldn't be able to find them on their space ships. But I have a theory about secret countermeasures taken by the government. I think that the government found out about these shape-changing aliens and, in fear of the effect this could have on the economic scene, instigated an insidious PR campaign to introduce ACT's (artificial Christmas Trees) into Christmas tradition. Furthermore, I believe that these ACT's come equiped with sophisticated equipment designed to detect and destroy these clever aliens. Omygosh! I just had a thought! Do you think that the recent trend toward greenry in every nook and cranny from the drycleaners to MacDonald's could be a counter-countermeasure by the aliens??? I have a diffenbachia on my desk and I think its looking at ... Jessie (ops@ncsc) (we think) ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 85 08:46 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Meeting Advanced Aliens Any alien in the solar system will notice us on Earth!!! You assume that someone looking at earth will be looking at the dayside! Try looking at the nightside sometime! (Or a picture if you don't have a shuttle ticket :-) It is very easy to see that something is happening on Earth if you look at a night-time picture of North America; you can identify most of the major population centers by the size and approximate location of the blob of light that sits there. It is also real good confirmation of the idea of light population. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 85 13:47:03 EDT From: OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: local vs. imported meat for aliens I should probably let this topic die a natural (?) death - But something seems to have been overlooked. Assuming they couldn't find an adequate butcher nearer home, taking only enough humans for breeding poses its own problems. Raising cattle (bovine, human, rabbit, or otherwise) not only takes a lot of space - but you also have to feed them - and the whole point was that the aliens were short of food. (Now if humans were a gourmet item and not a staple - that would change things. Jack (OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Aug 85 1036-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #311 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 7 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 311 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & McIntosh & Norton & Story Similarities, Films - Five Million Years to Earth & The Haunting of Julia, Miscellaneous - Gravity & Ewoks & Technology vs Magic & Visible Civilization & Overpopulation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 11:51 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: D&D in SF There was a story by Poul Anderson called The Saturn Game in which a group of explorers gets just a bit too caught up in the game... Jon Pugh ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 85 15:51:00 PDT From: IAGVAX::INTERRANTE Subject: Wyndham novel "Re-Birth" > From: infopro!david@topaz.arpa (David Fiedler) > Jefferson Airplane fanatics may or may not know that most of the > lyrics from the song "Crown of Creation" were taken from the > wonderful John Wyndham novel "Re-Birth". I haven't ever heard of "Re-Birth," but I read a novel by Mr. ? McIntosh, "Flight from Rebirth." I liked it enough to reread it once. It seems to be an expansion of a story in one of Issac Asimov's Hugo Winners anthologies. Suppose you could be reborn as a young child if you were valuable enough to society. What if you DIDN'T want to be reborn, but society insisted that you did? That's what one man is trying to escape. Any similarities with the Wyndham novel? ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 85 13:04:36 PDT (Monday) From: Susser.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: A way to generate fantasy? brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >I am an avid Dungeons and Dragons player/DM, and am wondering if >anyone knows if any books have ever been published that were >derived from actual games. I read a book of this sort a few years ago: "Quag Keep" by Andre Norton. the forward to the book explained that Norton actually played in a campaign run by Gary Gygax, and then turned the adventure into a fantasy novel. Unfortunately, the book is trash. It is very dry reading, and quite confusing to a real D&D player. The book was apparently based on the conflict of Law vs. Chaos philosophy of basic D&D, rather than the more playable Good/ Evil-Law/Chaos philosophy of advanced D&D. I considered "Quag Keep" a waste of time and money, but you may find it interesting as an example of how NOT to generate fantasy. Josh Susser ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 15:05:12 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Spies, Common Ancestry, Blind Luck How many stories I have heard of authors on opposite sides of the continent coming up with the same story simultaneously! And mostly it is, in fact, blind luck. As for the Gremlins/Black Cauldron beastie similarity, I've seen neither of them (though the gremlins themselves are familier to anyone who walks through a toy store these days), but I would guess blind luck on this one too. It's happened to me, as well. Dave Hartwell at Tor decided not to take a novel I submitted to him, due to a similarity between it and The Summer Tree, which he will be publishing in America. The recent posting which mentioned it says it has five protagonists; I'd be interested to see how many other similarities there are. Would the poster be kind enough to post a review when he's done with it? Yours in confusion, Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: "Five Million Years to Earth" (film) Date: 5 Aug 85 17:34:32 GMT mooremj@EGLIN-VAX writes: >"5M Years" is one of the best and scariest low-budget SF films of >all time. I highly recommend it -- but not alone or late at night. I saw it (about a week ago) alone AND late at night. I think that may be the best way to see it if you really want to get the full effect. (Though the commercials did detract somewhat from the continuity.) Not one of my all-time favorite movies, but definitely worth seeing. the Shadow ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Haunting of Julia, pII Date: 5 Aug 85 22:29:00 GMT I have a question for the net.movie and net.sf-people. Please mail me a response.... this weekend, I saw a very good ghost movie called "The Haunting of Julia" starring Mia Farrow. At the end of the movie, while the credits were rolling, the local announcer said something about a second part to this movie, but I cannot find any other references to "The Haunting of Julia, Part II" Anyone out there know anything about this? Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: decwrl!daemon@topaz.arpa (The devil himself) Subject: a 'matter' of 'weighty' concern ... Date: 5 Aug 85 03:08:17 GMT On the subject of gravity ... I tend to 'gravitate' (yeah, yeah ... don't flame me too badly for that horrid pun) toward stories on black holes. a collection edited by Jerry Pournelle, called, appropriately, _Black_Holes_, Had a few stores that were simply amazing. they're all fairly short, so to elucidate on their content would be to give the 'hole' show away. Robert Forward's _Dragon's_Egg_ was also a work that gave careful consideration to the 'potential' of such a concept. I found his treatment of the subject quite out of the mainstream, refreshing, and very well thought out... what I would expect from a physics-type doctor writing sci-fi. maybe someone should convice Stephen Hawking to write some sci-fi - *that* would be scary. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 5 Aug 1985 08:44:43-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: Not afraid to admit I like Ewoks I've read so many messages about Ewoks and other "cute" characters in Science Fiction movies, that I just have to respond. Let's face it, the Ewoks had to be small and cute in the Empire Strikes Back. They were, politically, the indigenous species of the planet, and the Rebellion needed them to help fight the Stormtroopers. Do you think that any indigenous species that looked like a robot could have tied up Skywalker & Co. and then negotiated to help destroy the Imperial troops? I don't think that would have been believable. But as the indigenous species, it is quite likely that their initial reaction to the presence of Luke & Co. would be initially hostile. Somehow, the Ewoks had to keep the sympathy of the audience even while they threatened to eat "Our Hero." The image of the Ewok served the purpose, and I think it was quite an appropriate solution to the problem, considering the fact that the Star Wars movies seem to have been made for the 10- to 15-year-old audience range. Let's talk about appearances, shall we? I want to flame off about people who assume that Cute and Fuzzy is weak and powerless, while Ugly and Scaly always indicates an ugly and dangerous person. Lots of science fiction movies try to show the fallacy of this assumption, but few make a point of proving it ain't so. The Last Starfight succeeded in making the audience "love" a lizard-like alien -- I think that was the movie's most original idea. But the movies don't go far enough. Sure, some aliens might be ugly, but friendly and some might be cute, but dangerous. But that's not the point, is it? What we as a species (Homo Spaciens, intentional misspelling) need is more emphasis on understanding and compassion if we want to survive. Let's face it, we consider ourselves "technologically advanced" but we aren't likely to last another millenium unless we develop our innate abilities to communicate, care, serve, trust, love, and cooperate to the best interest of all races and species. It's clear to me why no other intelligent species have come to Earth and made their presence known -- just watch Starman if you need clarification. So far, technology has proven to be the toy of the powerful, ambitious, and heartless. Each of us must react to the ever-widened influence of technology in our own way. But to use a heavy sword, you have to build powerful muscles and develop mental discipline. Similarly, we cannot effectively wield the forces of technology until our hearts and minds learn how to control and use technology for the good of all humankind, and, if there are others like us, for the good of all species. The Ewoks, having proven their ability to change their initial reaction to the presence of aliens, and in their courageous struggle to help Luke kill off the stormtroopers, have one up on the human race. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 11:37:54 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Deep Question(s) [Magic & Technology] > From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA > we were discussing the interface between technology/science and > magic. The only novel we could come up with that really treated > the CO-existence of the two (as opposed to the existence of one > through the other) was OPERATION CHAOS by ... ? (I have > forgotten) >From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) >Drat, I can't remember either! I think it is either John Brunner >or Gordon Dickson, but I wouldn't bet the rent. I'm glad. As someone else has said, it was Poul Anderson. I'd simply like to add, in this vein, try his *Queen of Air and Darkness*. Anderson has always had a deft touch with fantasy. I might also point out that this is one of many works by Anderson that contains music as an integral part of the story. There's a beautiful lyric in this that is something about "the dance weaves under the firethorn" or something like that. >> Can anyone give me some examples of stories in a similar vein. >Saberhagen's "Empire of the East" trilogy I'd like to add my endorsement of these books, which I haven't seen in years. They are exceptionally good at creating the atmosphere of oppression and squalor, without boring on and revolting you needlessly. I like them best of all I've ever read by Saberhagen. ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: visible civilization Date: 5 Aug 85 22:51:56 GMT To everyone else out there: I apologize if this should be in net.astro, and if it carries on I'll move it there... For those that are interested,.... >>>I'm told that the Earth is the brightest radio source in this >>>region of the galaxy, so finding it shouldn't be too hard if you >>>have radio telescopes. >> >>I'm not expert either, but I am a graduate student in Astronomy, >>and Alastair is right, I'm afraid. Jupiter is much brighter in the >>radio (or anything!) region than the Earth, and Jupiter would be >>quite difficult to resolve from the Sun unless someone out there >>had VERY good resolution on his/her/its radio scope. To which Charlie Wingate responds: > As I understand it, the things that make the earth stand out are > the following: > 1) It's very small and obviously associated with a star. This > makes it clear that whatever it is, it's a planet. There's a couple problems with this argument: first, the earth is EXTREMELY close to the sun. Even though the sun is a standard so-so star, it would take extremely fine resolution on a radio scope to separate the angular distance. Even if they could do that, the earth radiates so little heat (virtually its only radio source, the stuff we generate ourselves doesn't count, I'm afraid...) that it would be lost in the heat of the sun...again, seperation is a problem. OK...giving the aliens the benifit of the doubt: lets say they've taken the trouble to determine that there is a small, cold body orbiting the sun...it could be anything. True, it could be a planet...but it also could be a asteroid, comet, or any other rocky body...and, it doesn't even have to be a body...it could be an amalgamation of bodies... > 2) In radio frequencies, it is analomously hot, and NOT on > spectral lines. I'm afraid this isn't quite right. The earth, in fact the solar system, is amazingly boring. It is a rock that generates its own internal heat (slowly) by nuclear decay of material in the core. The rest of the heat is reflected. If you are refering to any radio noise that humans make, we aren't very spectacular either. Our signals, even if they weren't hampered by the atmosphere, solar winds, noise from the sun, etc, would attenuate before they got very far away from us at all. > 3) At certain precisely defined frequencies, it is quite bright-- > sometimes. Certain radio telescopes, when operated as radars, > are very bright. ? I missed your point... ? > If you look at the solar system from the right directions, there > are three radio sources: two thermal ones, and something > substellar which has a really weird radio spectrum: it has lines > that are not emission lines, and it is really variable. If your > detectors are sufficiently sophisticated, you should be able to > "see" the earth. But you have to look at it exactly right. It > occults over a very long period, and you have to be looking off of > emission lines. This makes it difficult to find similar sorts of > objects, compounded by the fact that we have only been doing this > for about 20 years, so that only our very nearest neighbors could > have noticed this. Someone on Sirius, however, wouldn't have too > much trouble noticing that our system had something really strange > in it. Sorry, Charley, but I really have to "stick by my guns" on this one. Detecting planets from even NEARBY solar systems is, at best, a painstaking long complicated process. (You could always argue that advanced civilizations have really nifty, spifo technology that could pick us out in a sec, but that is a moot point, since what we are talking about is whether or not the earth is an OBVIOUS object - at least that's what I'm talking about...) If it were that easy, we would have done it...the fact is, after studying a star a mere 6 lys away (Barnard's star), the best anyone could come up with is a "maybe." There may be 2 large gas bodies in orbit nearby, but it may just be an error in the way the plates were taken. And even these "gas bodies" which should be hot thermal objects, cannot be resolved from the glare fo a pathetic star like Barnard's. The closest we have ever come to finding other planets thermally, was with the IRAS satellite. It detected "bodies" moving around the star Vega. (26 lys distance.) However, that is probably a solar system in FORMATION, since those "bodies" are glowing at amazingly high temperatures. (Much higher than Jupiter...) I guess my point is, unless someone out there has some pretty sophisticated technology...we are quite invisible...at least, ordinary...you couldn't even get a good Master's Thesis out of us. Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Re: overpopulation and survival Date: 3 Aug 85 02:12:00 GMT What would you describe as 'everything.' Home, job, and material possessions happen to rate rather low on my list. Friends, on the other hand, are something I value very highly. That's why my Tardis is still in the shop. I'm trying to get it enlarged :-) Quick trivia question: How many rooms are there in the Tardis? How many have been shown in the TV show? orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Aug 85 0921-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #312 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 8 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 312 Today's Topics: Books - Moorcock & Tepper, Films - Five Million Years to Earth, Miscellaneous - Hogweed & Yesterday's Tomorrows & Leaving Home (2 msgs) & Aliens (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 07:45:10-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Hawkwind Moorcock's "Jerry Cornelius" stories were published in New Worlds in 1969-70. The first, A Cure For Cancer, was published in March 1969, and so mush have been written no later than 1968, which ties in well with 'Hawkwind' Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: warwick!simon@topaz.arpa (Simon Forth) Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper. Date: 2 Aug 85 15:07:47 GMT throopw@rtp47.UUCP (Wayne Throop) writes: >I just bought and read the second of the Mavin Manyshaped novels. >Has anybody read "The Revenants"? Is it as worthwhile as the True >Game series? I have read the revenants and I would say that it is a book that is as good as the True game books, though it has a very different theme and has very little in common with the True Game books. If you want to get a different look at the works of Sheri Tepper then read The Revenants. Without giving anything away I can say that unlike the True game books the story has a number (7 I think ) main characters, and If my memory serves me the story is told from the point of each of the Main characters for part of the time. This is a book that I would recommend, though dont expect another True Game book. Simon Forth Dept of Computing. University of Warwick. Coventry CV4 7AL. UK {various backbone sites in US}!mcvax!ukc!warwick!simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 07:45:10-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Hobbs The film with 'Hobbs End' was originally called Quatermass and the Pit the awful title 5 Million Years to Earth was a US atrocity. The film stars Peter Cushing as Prof. Quatermass, and involves the discovery, during part of the (seemingly perpetual) construction of more London Underground lines (that's "subway" over here) of a Martian spaceship and some peculiar humanoid skeletons... The film was the subject of one of the better late Goon Show satires, called Seagoon and the Pit: "Good grief, Seagoon, this skull is two million years old!" "Happy Birthday to you Happy Birthday to you Happy Birthday dear sku-ul..." Like the two previous Quatermass stories, it was written by Nigel Kneale. Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 07:45:10-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Hogweed... The Giant Hogweed, marching inexorably up the Thames Valley spreading chaos in its wake, was about 98% silly-season news reporting and 2% genuine plant. It is indeed large, and about as nasty as, say, poison ivy here. Where the wild ones came from I don't know, but specimens had been kept at the Royal Botanical Gardens, at Kew, for quite a long time. I saw them there in the early '70s, carefully cordoned off. The old gardener/attendant said that, as far as he could recall, nobody had paid them any attention before the newspaper stories, "though that novelist Mr Wells used to come and look at them sometimes". They didn't walk, and certainly didn't bite people's heads off (but then Wyndham's triffids didn't do the latter) Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john) Subject: Re: Re: A Speculation on "Back to the Fu Date: 2 Aug 85 16:12:00 GMT The Smithsonian has a traveling exihibit called "Yesterdays Tommorrows" that shows what designers and writers in the past thought today would be like. The biggest mistake seen consistently through all the exhibits was that they all showed families with the husband working outside the home and the wife as a housekeeper. Granted the husband would normally commute via a personel helicycle and the wife had robot servants but nobody could imagine a career woman working outside the home. They were also pretty far off on the effects of computers. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 12:50 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Why leave home? We all must sometime... I thank Ron Cain for pointing out the need for mankind to grow up, but I suspect that many of us realize our imperfections are overwhelming us. We need to be able to turn this wonderful world into the paradise that is was before we started to pollute it into a scum planet. I do not intend to abandon this planet (heck, I'm not even going to be able to leave, there's no room for hackers on the shuttle), nor do I think it possible to live without the earth for eons to come. Ron considers the harnessing of energy to be our greatest concern and he is correct in a limited sense (but then isn't everything?). With an abundant source and control of energy we should be able to grow enough food and distribute it to save all the priceless lives that are going to waste every day. With enough energy we can turn around the rise of pollution and make the water clean again. With energy we can leave home for a vacation or for good, and someone will want to. Heck I want to go on vacation to Saturn right now. A problem may be that if we can turn our beautiful little ball of dirt into the paradise we all love, then who is going to leave? There is enough humanity to pursue the exploration and colonization of space *and* to work on fixing up our home *and* to solve every technological problem we can. Look at the duplication going on in the space program! The USSR is doing things that we have done and vice versa. If one of us would give up that task and settle down to solving the hunger problem, we could lick it. But we are too immature and worried about the other guy. So we end up fighting and fretting and carrying on discussions like this one. But what can we do? It takes a great number of people to achieve any real results these days, although the individual effort now seems to come from the organizers. A Nobel award to the guy who organized Live Aid? He deserves it, but even more so do the millions who contributed. Can the same thing be done for pollution before it kills us all? There is no way we can abandon the earth. We cannot take all the people off planet no matter what. I am speaking of exporting an active gene pool. This activity itself will assist us to make our world what it should be. We can remove the polluting activities to places that are less noticable (can you pollute an asteroid?) and bring only the benefits to our home. I suspect that the only safe and efficient place to generate the energy we need will be in space, and it will be a coexistance of space living and planet living that will keep mankind alive over the eons. Like Robert Heinlein said, the earth is too fragile a basket for us to keep all our eggs in. Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa ------------------------------ From: warwick!simon@topaz.arpa (Simon Forth) Subject: Re: generation ships Date: 5 Aug 85 15:09:17 GMT I dont know whether this is relevant to the current discussion but I believe I have read somewhere that if a species is going to populate the galaxy using slower that light travel STL, that you get into severe difficulties due to population growth. Example. Take a species that has STL travel and that it has decided to colonize Space. Then if you assume that the species tries to get a uniform population density and that the species is growing with an exponential growth rate (I think that's the right growth rate?). If you say that the population is evenly distributed throughout a sphere in space then due to the growth rate of population the sphere will have to expand at a growing rate to keep population density constant. At some point the sphere will have to expand at a speed faster than that of light. You would probably find this a problem eventually if you had FTL travel that took a finite time, at some time in the future your population density would start growing as you could not expand your frontiers fast enough. This is not counting the problem of moving excess population from the centre of your space to the edge, when the edge is receding . if you want to read a book that deals with the population explosion problem then read the _cageworld_ books by Colin Kapp. Thats enough from me. Simon Forth Dept of Computing. University of Warwick. Coventry CV4 7AL. UK {various backbone sites in US}!mcvax!ukc!warwick!simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 18:38:04-PDT From: Bruce Subject: Cuteness -and- Why would aliens come to visit us? With these two discussions going on at the same time, I'm surprised no one has made the obvious connection: Human beings are so unbearably cute that a visit to this arm of the Galaxy wouldn't be complete without taking one of us home as a souvenir.... > From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford (Jeff Rogers) > Might [aliens] take us as slaves, forcing us to create artworks > for them? Would such a scheme work? Would the kidnapped humans > create great art? Perhaps so, if suffering contributes to great > art. Or would they turn out trash? Would the aliens know the > difference? Why not just take the art itself? It's much more difficult to get a work of art out of a living artist than out of a museum. (Assuming you have sufficiently advanced technology to make our theft prevention systems a joke.) Even if they did want to take art, I think it likely that their idea of art is entirely different than ours. Maybe their idea of art is a tomato soup carton. As if anyone could think that was art! [:-] Or maybe they would rather have one of those T-shirts that says "My fluxmate went to Earth and all I got was this lousy T-shirt." ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: visible civilization Date: 6 Aug 85 12:19:22 GMT demillo@uwmacc.UUCP (Rob DeMillo) writes: >> As I understand it, the things that make the earth stand out are >> the following: >> 1) It's very small and obviously associated with a star. This >> makes it clear that whatever it is, it's a planet. >There's a couple problems with this argument: first, the earth is >EXTREMELY close to the sun. Even though the sun is a standard so-so >star, it would take extremely fine resolution on a radio scope to >separate the angular distance. Even if they could do that, the >earth radiates so little heat (virtually its only radio source, the >stuff we generate ourselves doesn't count, I'm afraid...) that it >would be lost in the heat of the sun...again, separation is a >problem. You don't have to resolve it out separately. Assuming for the moment that Earth's radio emissions (human-generated) are at all visible, what will be seen is a star with a weird secondary which is occulted once a year (in the right direction, of course). This alone, I admit, would not make it evident that the secondary was a planet. But wait.... >> 2) In radio frequencies, it is analomously hot, and NOT on >> spectral lines. >I'm afraid this isn't quite right. The earth, in fact the solar >system, is amazingly boring. It is a rock that generates its own >internal heat (slowly) by nuclear decay of material in the core. >The rest of the heat is reflected. If you are refering to any radio >noise that humans make, we aren't very spectacular either. Our >signals, even if they weren't hampered by the atmosphere, solar >winds, noise from the sun, etc, would attenuate before they got >very far away from us at all. Now wait a minute. This last line is totally off base. We seem to be quite capable of tossing useful radio signals around the solar system, in spite of using inferior equipment and in spite of solar noise. Once you get clear of the atmosphere, the attenuation works against the noise sources too. >> 3) At certain precisely defined frequencies, it is quite bright >> sometimes. >> Certain radio telescopes, when operated as radars, are very >> bright. >? I missed your point... ? The point is that along the line of sight of these beams, the earth appears VERY bright. Bright enough to be used as a radar at interplanetary distances (where the range degradation is FOURTH power). Probability is against detecting such a beam, but, hey, I never said detection was LIKELY. >> If you look at the solar system from the right directions, there >> are three radio sources: two thermal ones, and something >> substellar which has a really weird radio spectrum: it has lines >> that are not emission lines, and it is really variable. If your >> detectors are sufficiently sophisticated, you should be able to >> "see" the earth. But you have to look at it exactly right. It >> occults over a very long period, and you have to be looking off >> of emission lines. This makes it difficult to find similar sorts >> of objects, compounded by the fact that we have only been doing >> this for about 20 years, so that only our very nearest neighbors >> could have noticed this. Someone on Sirius, however, wouldn't >> have too much trouble noticing that our system had something >> really strange in it. >Sorry, Charley, but I really have to "stick by my guns" on this >one. Detecting planets from even NEARBY solar systems is, at best, >a painstaking long complicated process. (You could always argue >that advanced civilizations have really nifty, spifo technology >that could pick us out in a sec, but that is a moot point, since >what we are talking about is whether or not the earth is an OBVIOUS >object - at least that's what I'm talking about...) If it were that >easy, we would have done it...the fact is, after studying a star a >mere 6 lys away (Barnard's star), the best anyone could come up >with is a "maybe." There may be 2 large gas bodies in orbit nearby, >but it may just be an error in the way the plates were taken. And >even these "gas bodies" which should be hot thermal objects, cannot >be resolved from the glare fo a pathetic star like Barnard's. At IR wavelengths, yes. But my point is that you have to look at the Sun IN THE RIGHT WAY. It's not technologically very difficult-- it does require a lot of luck. Radio telescopy as we practice it now would never find such an object, because we concentrate on emission lines. Human radio transmissions lie off such lines. >The closest we have ever come to finding other planets thermally, >was with the IRAS satellite. It detected "bodies" moving around the >star Vega. (26 lys distance.) However, that is probably a solar >system in FORMATION, since those "bodies" are glowing at amazingly >high temperatures. (Much higher than Jupiter...) Actually, it was considered to try and look for objects fitting the appropriate description, about ten years ago. (Remember SETI?) As I recall, what killed the thing was the immense improbability of it. Assuming 1 trillion resolvable stars, with one tenth having civilizations generating the right kind of emissions for 1000 years each, you'd have to examine about 100,000,000 before you found one. >I guess my point is, unless someone out there has some pretty >sophisticated technology...we are quite invisible...at least, >ordinary...you couldn't even get a good Master's Thesis out of >us... All you need is a bigger radio telescope, and luck. This discussion started out from the question of why we haven't been contacted by another civilization. Even granting that the Earth is detectable at interstellar distances, it's clear that probability is heavily against our ever being detected. C Wingate ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Aug 85 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #313 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 8 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 313 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Niven & Rosenberg & Juvenile Stories & Books from D&D, Films - The Brother from Another Planet, Miscellaneous - Aliens (5 msgs) & Generation Ships ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Aug 85 07:50 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Dhalgren WARNING: Personal Opinions Follow: Dahlgren is quite possibly the worst piece of dreck I have ever set eyes on. I said it before, and I'll say it again: YECCCCH!!!!! RE Jim Hofmann's comments on Dahlgren: I will admit that Delaney takes on topics that most everyone else shies away from (most everyone - not everyone, and the others do it better!) but I don't really want to read about these topics, and I particularly don't want to read trashy writing on these topics. Similarly, though Delaney "divorces himself from standard literary style", there are others who do it better. RE "I haven't met many sci-fi readers who don't hold this book with anything less than awe." Zowie! What planet do you live on? I have never met anyone who actually finished the book, much less held it in awe. If nothing else, I am impressed by your persistence. Dave PS: I'm not trying to flame here, I just want to warn folks that not everyone thinks that Dhalgren is the greatest thing since sliced bread. ------------------------------ Subject: Niven's Protectors Date: 06 Aug 85 11:47:23 PDT (Tue) From: Dave Godwin There is one reason I can think of that will explain the differences in thought pattern between the Protectors of Home and Teela Brown as a Protector. If Teela does not use the Star Drive to get the Ring back on axis, OK so lots of billions of hominids get toasty all over. The race as a whole will continue. If the Protectors on Home had not busted out of the hospitals to make more of their own kind, the Pak would have swept in and destroyed the entire human race. The modern Earth-type human is a mutated abomination in the eyes of a Pak. Brennan and the rest of the Protectors were doing their duty as a whole to the human race. Bigger question, though. This one has always bothered me about Niven's universe. What the heck happens to Home after the Protectors left to beat off the Pak ? Obviously, our guys win, because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown. But what happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating in the atmosphere ? It bugs me. Dave Godwin UC Irvine ------------------------------ Date: 6 Aug 85 09:40:58 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Guardians of the Flame (A Flame!) From: gellerman.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA I would like to defend The Guardian of the Flame Series. I personally loved the books and am looking forward to the next one. In fact, everyone I've talked to who has read them either liked them or loved them. I've recommended them to people and they thanked me not scolded me as the last review (or should that be, critique) would suggest. I mean, that is a pretty harsh beating for a series that has pretty damn good character developement (you really get to know them), plenty of action (ala D&D, but so what -- it's done well), and a little comic relief (from Elegon and such) to keep it interesting. Personally, I really enjoy SF with a twist of humor, and Rosenberg (sorry, but Greenbaum or Silverbob weren't very close) does quite a good job with it. Sure, it gets cute sometimes, but some people like that. Take the Xanth books by Piers Anthony -- they get just as cute and they're best-sellers. A lot of people out there like this stuff! Scott Gellerman (Gellerman.osbunorth@xerox) ------------------------------ From: dartvax!betsy@topaz.arpa (Betsy Hanes Perry) Subject: Kids' Stuff? (recent fantasy juveniles) Date: 5 Aug 85 22:00:01 GMT Robin McKinley, *The Blue Sword* and *The Hero and the Crown* Tamora Pierce, *Alanna: The First Adventure* & *In the Hand of the Goddess* Cherry Wilder, *A Princess of the Chameln* I almost missed most of the above books; my local bookstore shelved all except one of them in its separate children's section. They're worth seeking out. All three deal with adolescent female protagonists, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends. The McKinley books have received quite a bit of notice; *The Blue Sword* was a Newbery Honor Book and *The Hero and the Crown* won the Newbery outright. (For those who don't know, the Newbery is awarded to 'the best children's book of a given year.' Past winners include A Wrinkle In Time and The Bronze Bow.) These books are set in Damaria, which is very like Kipling's India. *The Blue Sword* concerns Angharad (known as Harry) Crewe, an orphan who has been sent to Damaria to join her brother, an officer in the Army. Harry is enchanted by the country and its customs, but is frustrated in her attempts to learn more about the natives. Harry isn't terribly 'ladylike'; she loves to ride and to hunt, but she's terrible at flirting, the only acceptable pastime for a proper young lady. The other Homelanders busy themselves with leading the most 'normal' lives they can in an abnormal place, and there isn't much place in a 'normal' world for Angharad Crewe. Angharad gets lucky; I won't spoil the plot by saying more than that. Try the book and see what you think. *The Hero and the Crown* is about an earlier Damarian hero, Aerin; she shares with Harry the gift/curse of being unusual at the age and in a society where normality is paramount. McKinley has an unusually vivid memory for the pains of being an outcast girl, and unusual gift for creating detailed and convincing characters. The Pierce books are about Alanna, a girl of noble birth who is being sent off to a monastery to learn proper feminine behavior. Her twin brother is being sent off to become a page and learn proper masculine behavior. As it happens, Alanna's brother is a scholar and Alanna wants to become a warrior. So they arrange to switch. Alanna, about ten, disguises herself as a boy and rides off to her fostering; Thom goes off to learn sorcery. (Thom doesn't have to disguise himself as a girl; apparently the monastery teaches scholars of both sexes.) This book doesn't cheat with the issues it raises; Alanna gets into real scrapes to keep her sex secret. She's not as strong as the boys she trains with, and she has to work extra hard to make up for it. She's a likable girl, and the books kept me reading. In both books, I found the endings a bit obvious, but that's what fairytales are for. I'm looking forward to seeing what Alanna gets up to after her knighthood. Wilder's *A Princess of the Chameln* is a remarkable book. Candidly, I have a hard time imagining the child who would enjoy it; I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it at thirteen or fourteen. It's about Aidris am Firn, hereditary co-ruler of the Chameln. As the book opens, Aidris, ten years old, is being taken by her father to accept fealty from the outlying tribes. Three months later both her parents are murdered. Shortly thereafter an attempt is made on her life and she has to fly. And that's pretty much the way the book goes. Aidris can afford to trust very few of those who surround her; her aunt in particular is her enemy. *A Princess* is a remarkably melancholy and autumnal book. It's about patience and restraint, not virtues very attractive to the adolescent. It's a book in which some of the bad guys win; wrongs go unrighted; good people die. I liked it very much. The McKinley books are in hardback by Greenwillow Press; the Wilder and Pierce books are in hardback by Argo. *A Princess of the Chameln* and *The Blue Sword* have also been issued in paperback recently. Elizabeth Hanes Perry UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Tue 6 Aug 85 10:48:28-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: D&D as a source for ideas The basic rule for science fiction & fantasy is: Ideas are the easy part. Character development is the hard part. This doesn't mean that stories that stress characters over plot are automatically better -- lopsided IS lopsided. But the best stories must have strong characters as well as strong plots and ideas. A D&D game is just a series of related puzzles. It takes an intelligent player to allow her character to mature as well as gather experience points. If you have that sort of intelligence, and can put it into a story, fine, but if you are simply telling the battles and melees as they happened, it will be boring and unsatisfying. Some readers may not realize why they are unsatisfied, but they will notice that the story seems pointless and thin. The Liavek series are a good example. My impression was that the world originated as a gaming world, but that the gamers became authors and wrote about incidents and stories that didn't occur in the course of the game, or manipulated events to fill literary goals as well. Obviously, hyper!brust can correct me, and as I am just a fledgling writer, my views are untested and subject to change, but I feel that no real stories can be written using D&D (or Traveller or ....) as the sole source of material. Games may be useful as templates (just as dreams or real life or "idea books" are) but the real story has to come from an understanding of people. wz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 85 14:38:33 EDT From: Jim Hofmann Subject: The Brother from Another Planet video/movie review of: THE BROTHER FROM ANOTHER PLANET Just out on video, The Brother survives the transfer to the small screen quite nicely. I saw this in some artsy-fartsy theater originally and left wondering why the major movie houses hadn't picked it up. I thought it would appeal to people of all ages, race and type, sort of an intellectual E.T. The movie, although heavily SF would appeal to those not normally inclined to the SF-genre, so if you do rent it you can invite those friends over. Particular scenes to watch for are: The Brother's tour through the city at night by the Rastafarian. This is a very dreamy scene and I backed it up a couple of times to watch it over. Also, there is a scene where two midwestern whites lost in Harlem make his acquaintance. They start drinking beer and talking but since his vocal chords are removed The Brother doesn't make any reply. Anyway, the white guys leave thinking they have made great inroads with a minority. There are also these two weird aliens chasing The Brother around New York whose fumbling personas contrast greatly with the cool Harlem surroundings. This is a good movie designed to make you think as well as laugh at yourself and our society. It also won a Cannes award. So if you haven't seen it yet, I recommend it highly. Jim Hofmann ------------------------------ Date: Mon 5 Aug 85 18:38:41-PDT From: Bruce Subject: TV & Aliens, etc. > From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA > A junk movie, we watched it with the sound off and missed nothing. > From: Stephen Balzac > Whenever a network tries to take one of these [terrible] shows off > the air, the aliens threaten to vaporize the planet. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who finds TV more bearable with the sound off. That way it doesn't interfere as much with whatever book I happen to be reading. And I have to keep the TV turned on so that the networks won't cancel shows like The A-Team and get our planet vaporized! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 85 10:48 CDT From: Allen_Sherzer Subject: WHY HAVE WE NOT BEEN CONTACTED? Why haven't we been contacted by ET's? I would think the answer is obvious: the Mice are preventing it. Any contact (especially at this critical time) would damage the program working on the question to the ultimate answer. Allen "42" Sherzer ------------------------------ Date: Tue 6 Aug 85 13:24:37-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Another reason for not being visited There aren't all that many stars close to us. Anyone visiting Sol with the intent of visiting us probably found out about us by old radio shows, and they haven't been flying around for all that long -- and I don't know how easy it would be to detect them over solar radiation, and even cosmic background noise. Our neighbors, if any, probably don't know we're here. Does anyone know whether OZMA could detect Earth at the distances it's using? Also, anyone visiting us would have to be close in time as well as space. Now, 1,000 years is barely noticable on astronomic time scales (most of the time, anyways). There's enough randomness in evolution that, if two planets evolve life at the same instant (Please, no flames about simultaneity!), and the life follows similar patterns, they probably won't evolve sentient life within 1,000 years of each other. I'd be suprised if there were anyone else within listening distance of us. ------------------------------ Date: Tue Aug 6 10:58:09 1985-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Re: Why would 'they' visit us? > Seeing as we are out on one of the arms near the edge of a 'small' > galaxy we probably haven't been visited because we haven't been > found. It's like why don't people go to small towns way off the > beaten track. > Warren (SANDER @ DEC-MARLBORO.ARPA) If this is true, it's probably just as well. As anybody that lives near San Francisco can tell you, the tourist industry is murder on a nice town....... Tom Wadlow (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: UUCP: ..!ucbvax!dual!mordor!taw ..!decvax!decwrl!mordor!taw ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: visible civilization (real sources) Date: 7 Aug 85 00:44:06 GMT I knew I had sources somewhere.... In the May 1975 _Scientific American_ there is a nice article on searching for extraterrestrial intelligence by Sagan and Drake. A summary of their articles (or parts of it anyway): Arecibo Observatory, when transmitting, is at least a million times brighter than the sun. This signal can be detected by a similar receiver at a distance of about ten thousand light years. A number of other sites have similar capabilities. In the FM and VHF tv bands, the earth is quite bright. A receiver system to detect such signals was conceived of at the time of the article, to be called 'Cyclops'. Employing 1500 antennas of 100 meters each,it would be able to detect such signals out to several hundred lightyears. Such a system would not be beyond our current technology-- but it would be very expensive (~$10G). These observations do not rely on resolving the earth as a separate body. C Wingate ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ix241@topaz.arpa (ix241) Subject: Re: generation ships Date: 5 Aug 85 17:15:15 GMT RAH's _Orphans of the Sky_ was one the first I know about. The survivors are mentioned in _Time Enough for Love_. David Bischoff and a co-author did a whole novel on a society that could have started from Heinlein's ending to OotS. (The title of the Bischoff book takes its name from the bridal ceremony that forms the basis for the story. And like an idiot I can't remember it!) John Testa UCSD Chemistry sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix241 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Aug 85 1017-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #314 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 8 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 314 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Pangborn & Vogt, Miscellaneous - Ewoks & Aliens (4 msgs) & Black Holes & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 03:28 EST From: ANDREW SIGEL Subject: Re: Green Hills of Earth (the song) Only portions of the song appear in the short story of the same name as printed in the collection of the same name (published by Signet) and in "The Past Through Tomorrow", which contains all of the "Future History" stories but one. The song is also a filksong, and as such must appear in one or more of the published filksong hymnals, but whether they have the complete lyrics I have no idea. Any filker out there who knows? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 03:16 EST From: ANDREW SIGEL Subject: Re: Music in SF Another novel in which music plays an important role is A MIRROR FOR OBSERVERS by Edgar Pangborn. I highly recommend it, even though its near-future setting is, by now, past, and some of the speculations far from fulfilled. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 1985 08:48:40-EDT (Wednesday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: aliens >Remember the classic SF short that theorized that detecting which >stars had habitable planets was such a trick that one extremely >advanced civilization never found it and finally just died out >since there was no point wandering over those vast distances just >to find a habitable world. I believe they actually sent out a few >scouts but gave up when none of them found anything. The plot >involves a less advanced race that had stumbled on the secret >trying to figure out what happened to this dead race by reviving >individuals from their remains and quizzing them. > >This seems so likely (except it probably isn't possibile to detect >which systems are worth visiting, not merely hard) that I don't >find it the least bit surprising that we haven't been visited. The story is called Resurrection by A E Van Vogt. The advanced race is humanity, which gets wiped out by a nucleonic storm since they hadn't been able to find any place to go when the storm came (don't worry, I'm not giving away anything important). The other race was the Ganae, and they did resurrect people on Earth, hence the title. The story is excellent and can be found, for those who are interested, in Damon Knight's "Toward Infinity", or Robert Silverberg's "Strangers in the Universe" ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 6 Aug 85 23:53:08 PDT Subject: Re: "cute" Ewoks edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) writes: >Ewoks?, be serious. It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that >this was a stupid descent into cutesieism to get the christmas toy >market. They were big overbloated teddy bears that made cute >noises, walked funny and had adorable skittish mannerisms otherwise >skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them tying them up et >al. Happily, I am told I am blessed with more than half-a-brain, so I can safely go ahead and disagree. I don't doubt that the aftermarket possibilities of the Ewoks had occurred to Lucas and company when they developed them for the film. But I do feel that Mr. ALbrecht has gone too far in condemning them as a reasonable concept. There has been much speculation about the ability of little Ewoks to produce the kind of attack depicted in the film. I would agree with those who suggest that this is a hunting society, so some of the items seen would have been built; another idea presented by someone here was that the Stormtroopers had been a problem for the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had already been fighting back. Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater capability than they have been credited with. I think there has been an erroneous tendency to look at a little Ewok and dismiss any possibility of heavy work quickly. I submit, however, that four to six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, and fifty Ewoks, using a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the stripped log. Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into a pile restrained by a keystone-type lever. The Ewoks would seem to be early-to-middle Paleolithic. They have learned fire, sophisticated weapons-making, and have a tribal structure in what does not appear to be a nomadic society. Moreover, they have had some exposure to the modern technology of the Empire. None of the activity attributed to them would be beyond a humanoid culture at the same stage of development. It is anthrocentristic to deny small, furry people the same capabilities. The Ewoks are, in many ways, what Piper's Fuzzies would have become had a non-interference directive kept them uncontaminated by man. Two specifics: >. . .otherwise skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them >tying them up et al. This isn't realistic belief. If I'm busy shooting down Ewoks in front of me with my blaster while Ewoks to me left, right, and behind are filling me full of arrows and spears, I'm going to be as dead as any Ewoks I shoot. >Yes, I like fuzzies but only when treated as fuzzies not as a >serious character which is to give storm troopers any competition. This suggest a reference to Piper's Fuzzy novels. If Mr. Albrecht read them and got the idea that Fuzzies weren't serious characters or were capable of little beyond "yeeking" and "smokko", then he missed a very great deal. Bruce N. Wheelock arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 6 Aug 85 23:49:54 PDT Subject: Re: The Great Silence Perhaps the problem is simply that there is no reason why anyone should have found us. This is an excerpt from _Cosmos_ by Dr. Carl Sagan. ". . .If a great many years ago an advanced interstellar spacefaring civilization emerged 200 light-years away, it would have no reason to think there was anything special about the Earth unless it had been here already. No artifact of human technology, not even our radio transmissions, has had time, even travelling at the speed of light, to go 200 light-years. From their point of view, all nearby star systems are more or less equally attractive for exploration or colonization." ". . .A sphere two hundred light-years in radius contains 200,000 suns and perhaps a comparable number of worlds suitable for colonization. . ." Why the silence? We're just one little regarded blue-green world at the unfashionable end of a spiral arm in the Milky Way galaxy. Bruce N. Wheelock arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: why nobody's visited Date: 5 Aug 85 15:50:01 GMT >From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A >Remember the classic SF short that theorized that detecting which >stars had habitable planets was such a trick that one extremely >advanced civilization never found it and finally just died out > >This seems so likely (except it probably isn't possibile to detect >which systems are worth visiting, not merely hard) that I don't >find it the least bit surprising that we haven't been visited. This seems superficially plausible, but it doesn't stand up to closer examination. You don't need habitable planets! You don't even need planets at all. All you need is materials to make habitats out of, and a power source (= a star). It seems likely that most if not all stars have matter orbiting them; we know that several nearby ones do (Vega, for example). ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz.arpa (Herb Chong - DCS) Subject: Re: visible civilization Date: 5 Aug 85 00:14:18 GMT milne@uci-icse writes: > I'm certainly no expert, but if Earth is brighter than the Sun, in > any band, I'll be very surprised. You might double check with > your source, if you can; also about competition with Jupiter, and > possibly Saturn. one of my first year physics project was to calculate how far away the earth could be detected by a radio telescope the size of Aricebo. it turns out that a signal broadcast at the usual operating power of Aricebo can be detected at a distance of some 100,000 light years by a comparable instrument that is pointed toward the transmitter at the right time. the signal is good enough such that two way communications with a 100,000 year delay is possible. this has nothing to do with brightness per se, but correct concentration of the broadcast energy. The cone of transmission would be about 20,000 or so light years across, but undetectable unless you happened to be looking in the right direction at the right time. Some of the project Ceti transmissions using Aricebo were aimed at the Hercules cluster some 13,000 light years away. so, you might say brightness is a relative thing. > There is also the problem of the angular distance of Earth from > the Sun, especially from very distant (ie much more than Alpha > Centauri) stars. I've neither the time nor the inclination to go > through the math, but I suspect it would be difficult, perhaps > extremely so, to resolve Earth's signals from the Sun's. you have to remember that the signals from the sun are more or less random (like black body radiation), while the signals from the earth are anything but (contents exempt). that alone would make anybody watching take more interest. Something like the Aricebo transmission would be like a supernova in our galaxy in terms of getting someone's attention, but they have to be looking in the right direction. Another thing too are the various nuclear tests that have been undertaken in the last forty years. Remember that they generate a hefty electromagnetic pulse that propogates in all directions. Because they are effectively one time events with no set pattern, they would probably be ignored as glitches in the instrumentation, but they are detectable over very large distances, on the order of a few thousand light years. > And remember, as I said in my first posting, to pick up any of > Earth's signals at all other than natural ones (and I don't know > whether there are any) you have to be within about 50 or 60 light > years. I'm sure no such signals were generated anywhere on Earth > more than 60 years ago, or perhaps 70, when the first crude > recordings were done. And at 70 light years' radius, those > signals, weak as they were to start with, must have attenuated > miserably. So I would place 70 light years as the maximum radius > at which Earth could be detected by radio telescopes, if it could > be so detected at all. The key thing is that our regular radio transmissions may be lost in the overall electromagnetic transmissions from other things nearby, but there are a lot of other things besides commercial broadcasts that would be detectable from great distances. The catch is that we've been only noticeable for the last forty years or so, and only in the last twenty or so have we actually tried to make ourselves known. Project SETI spent about 6 months transmitting to various nearby stars with such a signal power that even over the distance of thirty or forty light years, a primitive radio would be capable of detecting the signal if someone were listening at the right time in the right place. Herb Chong... UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde} !watmath!water!watdcsu!herbie CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa NETNORTH, BITNET, EARN: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 85 10:01:09 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Who's out there ... From: LYang.es@Xerox.ARPA (Larry Yang) Many discussions on extraterrestrial life seem to be plagued with one flaw: they all seem to be centered around life AS WE KNOW IT (i.e., carbon-based, "visible"-light seeing, gas-exchanging life). If one believes the more scientific views of the development of this universe, one would have to agree that our existence in this universe is a very improbable occurence. But it happened (sad as it may be to some). But what is the probably of another independently evolving ecosystem JUST LIKE OURS, in some other star system? Pretty unlikely at best, I'd say. I believe that there are other forms of life out there. But they are VERY different from us. They just might be silicon based, derive energy from gamma rays, and "SEE" a totally different wavelength from us. Maybe they're not even based on any form of matter, but purely in the form of energy. (What's the difference anyway; matter is energy, right?) Existence of this form of life would make the definition of "life" and "intelligent life" very elusive. Our anthropocentric definition of "intelligent life" is "life just like ours". The reason "they" haven't found us is because they're looking in the wrong places. The look at our star (good ol' Sol) and say "No, a star of that class could NEVER support intelligent life like ours. Let's go someplace else." Others look at our planet and say "Nope. Too close to the sun." Or "The gravity on a planet of that size would crush anything living on it." There might be a group that react, "That star system is radiating radio waves. Since radio waves are harmful to us, there can't be life there." The point is that the reason no one has found us is the same reason that we haven't found anyone else: we're looking in the wrong types of places. This argument suggests something very distrubing to those who believe in other life forms. How are we going to communicate with them? What if the other life form is anti-matter based? How do we interact with them (Assuming we somehow found each other)? Interracial marriages would be difficult (What kind of children would this marriage produce? Do they marry on that other planet? Do they have children?) Even if there was life of other forms, we may not be able to communicate with any of them. We might as well be alone. Larry Too bad; I was looking forward to finding out the latest fashions on Rigel. (Rigel? Why do people always mention Rigel?) ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes Date: 5 Aug 85 16:16:11 GMT Yes, you can make a black hole out of anti-matter. But the result is just a black hole, not an anti-matter black hole. There is no way to distinguish it from a black hole made from ordinary matter. In particular, if one collided with another black hole, the result would be just a bigger black hole. Not an explosion destroying the two black holes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 10:48 EDT From: sampsonr.henr@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Time Travel and Memory The lastest conversations on time travel and a report about eye witness reliability given about a year ago struck a nerve. The gist of the report is that people's memories are subjective and that two people involved in an event will recall it slightly different. Now if we assume that everyone remembers things as they happened, AND we assume that the effects of a third party's time travel is small and quite subtle then the divergence in the recall of the events is plausible. Finally it would also explain the disappearance of individuals who seem to drop off the face of the earth. The ripple in time finally caught up with them and they ceased to exist. The question is who will be next? How many of these disappearees had children and what effect does the time ripple have on them. T'is food for thought by better SF writers than I. (No I'm not a writer...YET!!) Ronald Sampson(nee Reader of Human Souls) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Aug 85 0859-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #315 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 9 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 315 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Harrison & MacCaffrey & Sheffield, Films - Quatermass, Television - The Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & The Trojan Horse & Brautigan & Old Magazines & The Universe & The Earth's Brightness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Answers to some previous inquiries From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Michael Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 85 16:46:41 EDT First off, Sue Brezden asked (quite a few issues back) if there were any stories dealing with alien races that start expanding/invading/ enslaving etc. because of religious zealousness. There is indeed such a story. The theme makes an appearance in Jack Chalker's "Flux and Anchor" series. ****** MILD SPOILER WARNING ****** The series deals with a society of humans that are living on a world which is obviously not earth. In the last book of the series, they discover that they were originally a colony from Earth and that they were cut off because the invaders were about to come down their throats. These invaders have the idea that they are the Chosen Ones of the universe. I won't tell you how it comes out. Mike Johnson ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry Harrison Date: 7 Aug 85 00:31:54 GMT Harrison has a remarkable talent. He writes straight adventure SF, but writes it *so *straight, it comes out funny. Add a little humor, and what you've got is a fun little read. THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT is a collection of three novels: THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT, THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT'S REVENGE, and THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT SAVES THE WORLD. The universe has been fairly well tamed, there is plenty for everyone, and things are mostly quiet. That's fine for ninety-nine percent of the world's population; the oddballs want a little more. One such is James "Slippery Jim" diDriz, who in a stainless steel world can still find holes in the wall to hide in. His greatest weakness is his soft heart. With a pocketful of grenades and a recoilless .75, he fights, steals, and chases his way across the galaxy. There's an impossible escape about every twenty pages, a beautiful woman or so, and dozens of great straight lines. Four dollars is still a lot of money for a paperback. When the paperback has three novels in it, it's a bargain. Recommended as a good light read or three. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 1985 18:05:02 GMT (Wednesday) From: Keith Dale Subject: Music in SF (& apologies to all) To: Paula_S._Sanch@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA At least when I goof up, I do it in a really big way: >>From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM >>One story that I haven't seen mentioned is: >>Cherryh's "Crystal Singer" (it *was* Cherryh, wasn't it?) From that innocent posting I received more hate mail, aspersions, and such than I would have believed possible. Just when I thought it was safe to show myself in public again, I got this zinger: >From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MULTICS.ARPA >May St. Patrick forgive you for the mortal insult to Erin. I will >struggle to do the same. I concede that McCaffrey may be a 'low >taste' writer, but she can at least imbue her characters with some >personality--something at which Cherryh fails utterly. I am abashed, chagrined, and properly chastened. I will hereby reread everything that I have by Anne McCaffrey, get all that I don't have, appeal to St. Patrick for forgiveness (and to be cured of my lousy memory), and make a pilgrimage this year to the land of my grandfather (and grandmother, of course)! My apologies to all!! Keith M. Dale P.S. - One mystery is cleared up: I now know why I thought Cherryh was so damn good! Uh, oh...I think I just opened myself up to a new round of flaming...oh, well *sigh* ... ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT by Charles Sheffield Date: 7 Aug 85 00:33:07 GMT I hold in my hand a book that proves that good story and hard science aren't incompatible. It has characters that come to life, a gripping story line, and a wealth of ideas. The book I hold in my hand is not Sheffield's BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT. BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT begins on (and around) Earth, in the early twenty-first century. Things are going to pot. The main characters are researching how to eliminate people's need for sleep, so everyone will be more productive and help get Earth out of its jam. The rich, eccentric-but-wise trillionaire, who's built several thriving, lucrative habitats and factories in orbit, is interested in this research. Cut to: the two hundred and eightieth century (more or less). Several young (sixteen to twenty) men and women have just competed in a planetary Olympics for the honor of getting trained for some sort of leadership. Some of them are "troublemakers", which means they're not content with going along on this trip through (or to) whatever awaits them. They're all bright, and constantly impress each other (and naive readers) by deducing what's going on. They stumble (by risking their lives in truly incredible ways) on to several secrets, which may lead them to What's Really Going On. Like Asimov's Foundation trilogy (plus one), nothing happens. Or at least, it all happens off screen. Unlike FOUNDATION and its sequels, no one actually does anything that has any effect during the "action" of BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT. The characters are so thin, they could be built up with a single ply of tissue paper. The "scientific" basis for the Big Secret is ludicrous. The romantic relationships transcend "unbelievable" and pass into "silly". Mankind, his technology, and his culture don't change as much from 2010 to 28000 as they did during any ten year period this century. There was some discussion as to where the good books would go after the Baen/Pocket split. Baen did a terrific job at GALAXY. Baen did a good job at Tor. I'm sure there's some dynamite novels coming out of Baen Books - somewhere. . . . Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Hobbs Date: 13 Aug 85 08:00:01 GMT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA >(1) The film with 'Hobbs End' was originally called Quatermass and >the Pit Right. >the awful title 5 Million Years to Earth was a US atrocity. Right. >The film stars Peter Cushing as Prof. Quatermass, Andrew Kier. And James Donald played Roney. Cushing was not in the film and never played Quatermass. >The film was the subject of one of the better late Goon Show >satires, called Seagoon and the Pit: Actually, it was called "The Scarlet Capsule." It is in one of the collections of Goon Show Plays. >Like the two previous Quatermass stories, it was written by >Nigel Kneale. And the one that followed many years later THE QUATERMASS CONCLUSION. QUATERMASS AND THE PIT is the best of the series, though. People who have been on the net for a while know that I consider this to be the best science fiction film I have ever seen. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 08:19:01 PDT From: Will Duquette Subject: Night Gallery >The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the >hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved a >grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl. I can barely >remember the story, but it dealt with the parents trying to get rid >of the doll, and it would show up in strange places after the >attempt. Actually, this was an episode of the Twilight Zone starring Telly Savalas (bald even then) as the little girl's father. The doll (and also, I think, the episode) was named "Talking Tina". When the string was pulled it was supposed to say "My name is Talking Tina, and I love you!" Despite its warm and friendly nature, Savalas didn't much care for it, and said so quite vocally. **SPOILER, if anybody cares about spoiling a TV show that's 20 or so years old.........** Well, this doll had an annoying habit of always being underfoot - like at the top of the stairs, in just the right position to send Telly Savalas into the middle of next week.... And furthermore, it became clear that the little girl wasn't leaving it there. Meanwhile, it begans to speak to Telly of its own accord (look, Ma, no string!): "My name is Talking Tina, and I HATE you!" Surprised, but undaunted, Telly proceeds to try various methods of destroying it, from simply throwing it away to melting it with a blowtorch. Nothing works. And Talking Tina is now saying, "My name is Talking Tina, and I am going to KILL you!" I forget exactly how it ended, but it was suitably grisly... Will Duquette ------------------------------ Subject: Stories That Deal With Co-existant Magic And Technology. From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Michael Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 85 16:46:41 EDT Two of Chalker's current series deal with this (maybe he has developed a fascination for the subject). The series are his "Dancing Gods" and the above-mentioned "Flux and Anchor" series. The "Flux and Anchor" series deals more deeply with the subject, but "Dancing Gods" is more fun. Piers Anthony also seems to like this one. Someone else already mentioned that his "Incarnations of Immortality" is rife with this theme. Having read both of the books already out a couple of times, it strikes me that he has managed to actually use magic AS technology, if you get my meaning. An interesting mix. Other stories of his that deal with the theme are his "Tarot" trilogy (which actually uses it more as a vehicle for the real purpose of the story). Robert Heinlen used the idea in at least one place in "The Number of The Beast" (which I liked, though it may damn me eternally to admit). Niven used the idea in more than one story line. I believe someone already mentioned that he used it in his "Warlock" stories. He also wrote a number of stories starring an inept bungler named Svetz that are collected in his anthology "The Flight of the Horse" which are quite good. The theme figures quite strongly in Marion Zimmer Bradley's excellent interpretation of the Arthurian legends, "The Mists of Avalon". I believe she also uses it in her Darkover novels, though I have never actually read them. Those are all that I can remember right off the top of my head. I suspect that there are many other places where authors have used the idea, since it is one that has so much potential. Mike Johnson ------------------------------ Subject: Answers to some previous inquiries From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Michael Johnson) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 85 16:46:41 EDT A while back, someone made reference to "The Trojan Horse" as a story while discussing Mad Max. As a long time lover of mythology, be it classic or otherwise, I feel compelled to mention that the Trojan Horse story is only one small part of a pair of incredible works by Homer, the Classical Greek poet. These are the Iliad and the Odyssey. The former is an account of the ten-year long siege of the city of Troy by the princes of Greece and their associated armies. The second is the tale of the adventures that befall Odysseus, one of the heroes of the the Trojan War, as he attempts to return home. Homer manages to tie a lot of the (then existing) mythology into these two stories and a lot of the episodes therein are taken out and used in other pieces of literature. References to these two works can be found in much of modern literature. If you've never read either or both of these stories, it would be well worth your while to find a good interpretation of them and settle back for a grand and glorious adventure in literature. To those of you whom I may have offended by implying that you lack culture, or are unread, I apologize in advance. Mike Johnson ------------------------------ From: convexs!ayers@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: SF westerns Date: 5 Aug 85 20:04:00 GMT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX >There is a novel called "The Hawkline Monster (a Gothic Western)" >by the late Richard Brautigan. It isn't really a western, a >gothic, or SF, but has some elements of all three. late? Late? LATE???? Please tell me it isn't so... blues, II (shi dobu nan) ------------------------------ Date: Wed 7 Aug 85 11:23:50-PDT From: Bill Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #308 I have a fairly complete set of SF & F dating from the 50's, and also *old* IF and Galaxy editions. I am interested in selling these. I've read most of them and they are gathering dust. Interested parties please reply to me and not this list. The books have lots of fun reading in them! Bill ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 85 10:30:06 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: And another thing... From: Peter Alfke Jon Pugh writes: >It is my firm belief that all the energy expended in the Big Bang >has been stored away as gravitational potential and it will all be >converted back into kinetic energy just before the next Big Bang. >There is no other way, if the universe is a closed system like >Albert says. Not necessarily. Remember "escape velocity"? If the mass of the universe isn't great enough, it may still have too much kinetic energy to collapse again; in other words, everything has escape velocity from the center of mass of the universe (the big bang point). The universe is a closed system, an idea far older than Einstein, but that doesn't mean that it has to repeat itself. Indeed, such a repetition has disturbing thermodynamic consequences (where'd all the entropy go?). There are no easy answers to the question of what will happen to the universe. Astronomers are still fairly divided in their opinions. --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 21:03:16 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Earth's radio brightness The Earth is much brighter in the microwave region of the spectrum than the Sun is. The Sun gives off small amounts of radio waves and microwaves because of its heat. Jupiter gives off very small amounts of radio waves for that reason. Jupiter's main radio emissions are in the 10 meter and the 0.1 meter bands, and are NOT thermal, but are caused either by giant lighning storms on the planet or, more likely, by ions from Io spiralling in Jupiter's magnetic field. Jupiter does NOT radiate hardly any microwaves. Earth is always brighter than the Sun in the microwave region due mainly to high power military radar. But if a large, highly directional antenna such as the one at Aricebo is used, the Earth is, in one direction only, on one frequency only, one of the brightest microwave sources in the whole galaxy, and can communicate with a similar station 1000 light years away. ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Aug 85 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #316 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 10 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 316 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury & Dick & Niven & Wylie & Bar Tales, Comics - Grimjack, Films - Harold Lloyd, Music - SF in Music, Television - The Man From U.N.C.L.E. & Japanese Animation Miscellaneous - Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Aug 85 15:20:01 PDT (Wednesday) From: JFusco.es@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #303 Can anyone tell me how to get in touch with Ray Bradbury,or his agent, short of going through his publishing company. My wife's company would like to book him for a speaking engagement. Joe Fusco Xerox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 04:38:36 MDT From: donn@utah-cs (Donn Seeley) Subject: IN MILTON LUMKY TERRITORY by Philip K Dick (I hope you won't mind seeing a review of a non-sf book here, but it IS by Philip K Dick, who has many rabid fans in the sf community, crazy people who might actually take the time to read a few of his mainstream novels... Like me.) IN MILTON LUMKY TERRITORY (Dragon Press: c1985, 213 pp) is one in a series of mainstream novels by Dick to reach the public in recent years. When Dick's career was beginning he wrote some 11 mainstream novels, none of which he succeeded in publishing at the time they were written. (More information about the unpublished novels can be found in Kim Stanley Robinson's PhD dissertation, THE NOVELS OF PHILIP K DICK.) In 1975 Dick's novel CONFESSIONS OF A CRAP ARTIST was published, and it proved to be as good and as interesting as his best science fiction. THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE, Dick's last mainstream novel (written after CONFESSIONS and immediately before THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE) was next to appear. TEETH provides a wonderful view of the psychological anatomy of Dick's characters, and is possibly the clearest example of his favorite theme, which is that all human beings live in their own separate realities. TERRITORY is the story of Bruce Stevens, a young man who knows he can make it in the commercial world. Over the course of the book we see how his confidence and arrogance affect those around him, and how he in turn is affected by circumstance in ways that are beyond his control, until he reaches a point when his reality begins to crumble. I don't want to give the impression that Dick wanders away on one of his head trips in this novel -- the style is concrete, grittily realistic, placing the reader squarely in the middle of Stevens' misaligned relationships, putting you behind the wheel of his Merc as he drives around the West of the 1950s looking for deals on electric typewriters and falling in love, making mistakes, laughing and crying. But the people are unmistakably Dick people, and out of the context of his sf novels we get to see just how excruciatingly real these people are. TERRITORY's theme, I think, is like that of TEETH, but the books are distinct. Although I prefer TEETH, if you are a Dick fanatic it will be well worth your time to get both books and compare them. TERRITORY has the advantage that it concentrates on a single character and has a very nearly linear plot with a coherent ending. I think it is less well written than TEETH -- there are places which seem to need trimming and polishing, and there are stretches of the book that are a bit dull. According to the blurb on the flap of TERRITORY, Kim Stanley Robinson declares that TERRITORY is a 'bitter indictment of the effects of capitalism,' but Dick himself says in his foreword: 'This is actually a very funny book, and a good one too, in that the funny things that happen happen to real people who come alive. The ending is a happy one. What more can an author say? What more can he give?' I side with Dick, but you may disagree. Like most Dick novels, the story is open to interpretation... 'People have to face reality sometime,' says Milton Lumky, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn PS -- More detail on how to get TEETH and TERRITORY: THE MAN WHOSE TEETH WERE ALL EXACTLY ALIKE is published by Mark V Ziesing, PO Box 806, Willimantic CT 06226; ISBN 0-9612970-0-X; $19.50, hardcover with a jacket illustration by Dell Harris. IN MILTON LUMKY TERRITORY is published by Dragon Press, PO Box 78, Pleasantville NY 10570; ISBN 0-911499-09-1; $29.95, hardcover with a jacket by Barclay Shaw. Apparently one orders Dragon Press books from Ultramarine Publishing Co., PO Box 303, Hastings-on-Hudson, NY 10706. (I saved some time and confusion by getting both books from Mark Ziesing...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 09:46:11 edt From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Subject: protector psychology Rob Austein's response doesn't work, because Brennan didn't worry about his bloodline either and he got the original tree-of-life. What Niven also didn't cover in Ringworld Engineers was that not saving the Ringworld would be the same as killing 3E13 hominids more surely than using the meteor defense to save the ringworld -- people might survivie the radiation, but wouldn't possibly survive the sun (or shadow squares, or whatever). So I suppose the canonical answer of poetic license is it. PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the ringworld being built? It did have the reference to the expedition to Earth, which was much smaller. Robert ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 85 06:23:15 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #308 From: finch.DlosLV@Xerox.ARPA > Well, I just arrived from 1955 (I walked) and the big surprise is >that it is still cold. I was in the Ground Observor Corps then (we >filled the gaps in the Air Defense Command radar net, which was >more gaps than net) and the question wasn't whether there was going >to be a nuclear war, it was when. I for one was utterly astonished >to see 1984 roll by. Incidentally, there was a now-forgotton >Phillip Wylie novel about a mid-1950's nuclear exchange between the >US and the USSR -- anybody remember the name? Phillip Wylie Wrote two novels about nuclear war with the Soviet Union. I don't know the exact time frame for either of them but the titles were "Tomorrow", which was a comparison of two midwest cities' survival capabilities. One had a good civil defense plan and the other one had none. The other title is "Triumph". A story of one very rich man and his multi- million dollar shelter. Jim Finch ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 9 Aug 1985 05:29:55-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: SF Bar Tales > From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) > A few recent messages briefly mentioned the "tall tales in a bar" > subgenre. I assume this is sub- to SF, but I have trouble > characterizing the subgenre. Would anyone care to describe their > idea of what a "bar" tale is? Perhaps a few more references to > authors would help: Clarke, Cabell, and Lord Dunsany have already > been mentioned. Is this strictly a type of short story? Well, we're discussing this in the context of sf, but the roots of the sub-genre are quite old. The idea of a story in which a character tells a tale goes back at least as far as AN ARABIAN NIGHT'S ENTERTAINMENT. There are also numerous stories of people telling stories around a campfire. The idea of setting this type of story in a bar or club (a la Dunsany) is not restricted, I'm sure, to sf, but I don't know any mainstream examples off-hand. In discussing such stories that take place in bars (such as Arthur Clarke's "White Hart", Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Place", deCamp & Pratt's "Gavagan's Bar", etc., I tend to also include those that take place in clubs, such as my earlier posting about Dunsany's "Billiard Club". As for other examples, there's Niven's "Draco Tavern" series, in CONVERGENT SERIES and LIMITS, plus an individual story in A HOLE IN SPACE ("The Fourth Profession") taking place in "the Long Spoon". There's also Stephen King's "The Breathing Method" (in DIFFERENT SEASONS). Even Peter Straub's GHOST STORY features a small club called, if I can remember correctly, the Chowder Society, the four members of which told ghost stories to each other. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 85 11:32 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #297 >From: steve stuart@webstr.DEC >In reference to M. Moorcock's stuff: >I especially liked the way that while any individual series dealt >with one particular incarnation, fate would, at times throw a few >of the incarnations from other series into the picture. > >I'd like very much to read more sf with this feature (bug? :-)) ... >can anyone think of what other authors do this, and do it well? Anybody who likes Moorcock, the Theives World stuff, Old Humphrey Bogart movies, O. Henry stories, or anything else in the world, should check out a comic book called GRIMJACK. It is, in my humble opinion, the best book on the market at the moment. Grimjack is a mercenary, detective, bodyguard, assassin, thief, fighter, thug, bar owner (and all around nice guy) who lives in The Pit in the city of Cynosure. Cynosure is approximately equal to Tanelorn-- the point at which all the multiverses come together, and The Pit is roughly equivalent to Downwind in Sanctuary-- which is roughly equivalent to Central Park after dark, or the college registrar's office anytime (i.e. not a place to cultivate marigolds.) The combination is a powerful setting where ANYTHING can happen. Giant sentient slugs attack with Uzzis (spelling is optional. I mean the Israeli machine guns) and the locals really enjoy heavy metal (bands, that is.) The writing of this series is what makes it worthwhile. Believe it or not, things are constrained and operate under logical rules. The stories have been simply superb (though there has been a recent shift in authors, and I watching to see if the standard is maintained.) The artwork is generally some of the best out there and it each month's issue redefines the phrase "attention to detail." Be sure to read all the grafitti wherever it appears; billboards can be a lot of fun; and things like pinball machines in swords & sorcery taverns just make my day. Its from First comics and should be available in any good comics store. Issue 15 (I think) is the latest one I've read and it's a great starting point-- it concerns Grimjack's assignment to guard a shipment being delivered by a sentient truck which speaks only in 20th century rock lyrics. It's called "This Wheel's on Fire." Read it. --Chris ------------------------------ From: utastro!arl@topaz.arpa (George Koehler) Subject: Re: Back to the Future Date: 7 Aug 85 19:31:37 GMT > From: Couse.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA > Bruce Leban writes: >> "One thing I don't understand in either interpretation is the >> clock in the Professor's house (at the beginning of the movie) >> which has a man hanging off the face of a clock. Where did he >> get that clock?" > The man hanging off the clock was Harold Lloyd, not the Professor. > There was a scene in one of HL's classic silent movies from the > '20s (I don't recall the name or exact year) where he gets stuck > hanging from the hands of a clock. The movie was "Safety Last". ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 9 Aug 1985 04:59:32-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: SF in music (Stevie Nicks) > From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey) > And Fleetwood Mac's (Stevie Nicks's) song "Rhiannon" is supposed > to be about a Welsh (Welch?) witch. Anybody know if Stevie's still > around? While it's true that the name Rhiannon is a reference from Welsh myth, the lyrics from "Rhiannon" don't seem to me to be about such. As for Stevie Nicks, yes, she's still around. Still recording with the Mac (whenever they get around to doing another album), and flying solo as well (two albums so far, with a third on the way). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 11:16:03 PDT Subject: The Man from U.N.C.L.E. is back! I have been told, by a long time fan of the program, that the program "The Man from UNCLE" is returning to the TV screen. This fall (September 2nd at 8PM) the program will start on CBN. CBN is the Christian Broadcasting Network and is available on most cable system. ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 11:19:52 PDT Subject: Comico/Harmony Gold future projects According to informal interviews during the '85 San Diego Comic Con: Harmony Gold, the producers of Robotech, will start production of two more Japanese animated programs soon. The programs will be based on the original Japanese productions of the "Captain Harlock" and "Queen Malenia" series. The producers of the comic book adaption of Robetech, Comico, will be starting the production of a new series based on the Jonny Quest TV program that was done by Hanna Barberra originally. Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc or crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ Date: 7 Aug 85 17:16 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Why we're being left alone (?) In reference to why we're the way we are AND why we're not being visited by aliens AND why aliens might come a long way to visit us...... I just read Saberhagen's first Berserker book (yes, I had a deprived childhood) it occured to me that he offers a plausible, if somewhat off-the-wall explanation. During the historian's introduction, he makes comments about how thankful his race is that humankind retained the violent, warlike, fighting instinct and, consequently, not only had techniques but also some equipment for fighting the berserkers when they first appeared. Now, I'm not at all sure how much I believe this, but just for the sake of discussion, mightn't it be possible that (a) Starfaring races, to survive long enough to achieve the technology necessary for galactic-wide travel, tend to develop socially and "morally" to the point where they are effectively no longer capable of warfare? (b) Such races still see a need for the capacity to violently defend against violence-- perhaps even violence from an unknown outside force (i.e. the Berserkers. C'mon, maybe they've read Saberhagen.)? (c) Said races would therefore need to import their warfarers. This sufficiently desperate need for a commodity which they did not possess would be sufficient to motivate travel of great distances to obtain it. (d) But in all times other than those of direst emergency, it would be more safe, more adviseable, and probably more pleasant to leave your warlike resource pools on their own. A few unlucky ones might get the job of monitoring the available resources, but there would certainly be nothing to gain (and something to be lost) by displaying yourself to the population. Either you would get nuked, or the population would come to its senses, stop fighting among itself and 'grow up'-- in which case you lose your warriors. Of course, a slightly less "moral" civilization (or a slightly different conception of the "moral" development of a spacegoing race) might allow them to encourage the fighting to go on. And you always thought those politicians were just stupid . . . . Anyway, food for thought. --Chris ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Aug 85 0853-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #317 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 317 Today's Topics: Books - Cowper & McCollum & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Stewart & Stratton & Title Request, Music - Moorcock, Miscellaneous - Anaheim Creation & Aliens (2 msgs) & The Problems With SF (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Friday, 9 Aug 1985 04:19:35-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: THE ROAD TO CORLAY and sequel > From: dcl-cs!gdh > Yet more examples of music/ian being a dominant theme in > an SF/F novel are :- > (i) 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' (Short story) > (ii) 'The Road to Corley' > > Both are by Richard Cowper and are published by Pan in the UK. I > think 'Piper...' is in a book called 'The Guardians' I'd > appreciate help in finding a copy of this as I really enjoyed the > story. The US edition of THE ROAD TO CORLAY (which is graced by an absolutely beautiful cover painting by Don Maitz) includes "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" (one of my favorite stories of All Time) as a rather lengthy prologue. > From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (1st Lt. RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) > There's a SEQUEL?? Title? Date? > Yet you say the sequel isn't as good? The sequel is A DREAM OF KINSHIP, published by Timescape Books. I can't recall the exact date (my copy is packed away right now), but it was somewhen circa 1982, I think. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Subject: Gravity drives From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jeffrey Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1985 14:31 EDT In the book "LifeProbe" (which, by the way, has a sequal "Procyon's Promise") the propulsion for Earthie ships and the LifeProbe was a gravity-using drive. Matter was thrown into very small black holes that had been given a high rate of spin. The matter would be whipped around, given energy and thrown out again, and the ship moved via one of Newton's laws. Michael McCollum explained it a lot better than I did, but you get the drift. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 9 Aug 1985 04:34:18-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS, etc. > From: cstvax!bobg (Bob Gray) > DOLSON@USC-ECLB.ARPA writes: >> ... its called "The Time of the Hawklords" and was written >> with Michael Butterworth, C. 1976. >> >> Doug > This was the first volume in a planned trilogy. The second volume > was published in 197{8,9} written by Moorcock on his own. It was > called something like "The Queen of delerium". I have never heard > of the third volume in the series. Does anyone out there know if > it was ever published? Nine years is a long time to wait to find > out what happens after the setting up for the sequel done in vol > 2. (1) QUEEN OF DELIRIA was written by *Butterworth* alone, not Moorcock. (2) Though Moorcock is co-credited on TIME OF THE HAWKLORDS, he did little or no actual writing on the book. (3) The third book, LEDGE OF DARKNESS, may have come out in England, but it never appeared in the US. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 9 Aug 1985 05:58:00-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Michael Moorcock > From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) > Moorcock's first published writing was a trilogy of Martian > stories that are HIGHLY reminiscent of the John Carter series. Not even close. The Martian trilogy (originally published as by Edward P. Bradbury) was published in 1965. Moorcock wrote and published dozens of short stories prior to this, some of them being cobbled together into book form. He also published two novels that didn't already appear as short pieces, including a novel in the Sexton Blake mystery series (as by Desmond Reid). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 00:30:44 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: End of Civilization stories >From: Holbrook.OsbuSouth@Xerox.ARPA >favorites: 'Earth Abides' by George Stewart. This novel >is from the 50's. That remains my favorite disaster SF, and I've read quite a few. A lot have been listed, but I don't think any of them matches up to this one. It's a little bit dated, but very little, considering. Almost any other SF you read that is as old as this requires *substantial* suspension of disbelief. I have always hoped that someday I would discover other stuff by this author; I never have. It is underplayed, but not boring. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 9 Aug 1985 04:52:53-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Juanita Coulson (actually Thomas Stratton) > From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.arpa (Lee Gold) > To the best of my recollection, David McDaniel informed me that > Man from U.N.C.L.E. books #11 and #12 (by "Thomas Stratton") > featuring colorless Wisconsin margarine as one of the plot > elements--had actually been written by Buck and Juanita Coulson. Every reference that I've seen on "Thomas Stratton" states that "he" is Robert "Buck" Coulson and Gene DeWeese, not Coulson and his wife Juanita. "Thomas" is DeWeese's first name (Eugene is actually his middle name) and "Stratton" is Coulson's middle name. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 85 11:38:00 EDT From: OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA Subject: gravity (title request?) Since the subject of gravity has recently been brought up (ugh) I remember reading a short story long ago about a truck driver (perhaps he had a scientist friend) who learned to control gravitons. He would overload his truck, and just out of range of the terminal dump all the gravitons so the load weighed almost nothing and thus made the driving much faster, easier, and less wear on the truck. Shortly before reaching his destination, he would stop under a big concrete railroad bridge to grab some gravitons and up his cargo to approximately the correct weight. Among other problems - after a while he had removed so many gravitons from the bridge that it broke up and floated away. Anyone else remember this? Jack (OSTROFF@RUTGERS.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.arpa (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: Michael Moorcock and Hawkwind -- and Deep Fix Date: 7 Aug 85 15:12:52 GMT nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan) writes: >> From: 4CCVAX..PDUQUETTE@ymir.ARPA (Will Duquette) >> I do believe that Moorcock actually "created" the band in his >> books about Jerry Cornelius.... So far as I know, the *real* band >> got their inspiration from this. >> >> Anybody know for sure? >Well, I find this hard to believe since Michael Moorcock is a >sometimes member of Hawkwind, but not a founding member. Sorry, lads. The band MM was involved with is called The Deep Fix. Better luck next time. Be Seeing You. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 85 15:18 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Anaheim Creation I can suppy info on the upcoming Creation in Anaheim. It was cancelled. At the last Creation in LA, one of the Creation folks told me that attendance at the recent LA area cons has been down, they were unable to get a big name (ie, Leonard Nimoy) to come to Anaheim, as they'd hoped, so they cancelled. Lisa ST Welcommittee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 85 21:57 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: why nobody's visited To: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A.ARPA The story was by Isaac Asimov, I think, although I don't remember the name. However, you haven't got it quite right. The "advanced race" was humanity, and we didn't die out from boredom, but due to a giant space walrus (-:)) (or something) which we couldn't stop and couldn't escape due to not knowing any other star systems (actually, I think we'd found one, but the space walrus was going to eat it, too.) One human is resurrected, and he conquers the entire less advanced race (or at least makes a good start.) I'll try and see if I can find the name of the story. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-032 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Aug 85 09:48:44 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: Those inquisitive aliens From: Peter Alfke Dave Newman (Newman.pasa@Xerox) writes: >Any alien in the solar system will notice us on Earth!!! ... It is >very easy to see that something is happening on Earth if you look >at a night-time picture of North America; you can identify most of >the major population centers by the size and approximate location >of the blob of light that sits there. From a low orbit (i.e. a LandSat satellite, from which we get those pretty pictures) only. From the distance of the moon, such features are invisible. In fact, ALL signs of civilization (except for radio emissions, of which enough has already been said) are invisible. --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 9 Aug 1985 07:04:24-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: THE PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IX > From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) > With a few notable exceptions, critical endeavors in the field of > science fiction have been nonexistent. > What efforts we have seen have been notable more for the fact that > they have actually been published, than for what they necessarily > contain. Delany's "The Jewel-Hinged Jaw" and LeGuin's essays are > exceptions, and there certainly are others. Horse puckey. Before writing an essay, it helps to do a little basic research. You obviously have not seen any issues of: (1) EXTRAPOLATION, founded by Thomas Clareson in 1959 (!), published semi-annually by the English Department of Wooster (Ohio) College. It is considered to be the official journal of the Modern Languages Association Seminar on Science Fiction. (2) FOUNDATION: THE REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION, a British journal from North East London Polytechnic, started in 1972. (3) SCIENCE FICTION STUDIES, originally from Indiana State University (I believe that it now comes out of McGill University, but I'm not sure). One of the founding editors, Darko Suvin, is a Professor of English at McGill University and has had critical works on sf published in a wide variety of places. FOUNDATION and SCIENCE FICTION STUDIES have had reprints in hardcover from Gregg Press. Clareson (EXTRAPOLATION) is also one of the foremost figures in sf criticism, having founded the Science Fiction Research Association, which was created to foster literary criticism in the sf field. Clareson has also edited numerous anthologies of sf criticism, such as SF: THE OTHER SIDE OF REALISM (1977) and MANY FUTURES, MANY WORLDS: THEME AND FORM IN SCIENCE FICTION (1977). He also published SF CRITICISM: AN ANNOTATED CHECKLIST (1972) which is quite extensive (despite its being 13 years out of date!). And I myself have about 4 feet of bookshelf space devoted to scholarly studies and criticism on sf and sf authors, including some of the aforementioned works. > But it is interesting to note that virtually all of the science > fiction criticism that has been penned has been by authors > currently working in the field. And due to the sociological > factors of their group, science fiction writers, even Delany and > LeGuin, pull their punches and let people off the proverbial hook. You obviously have not read any of the criticism by James Blish as William Atheling (ISSUES AT HAND and MORE ISSUES AT HAND) or Damon Knight (IN SEARCH OF WONDER). They are quite uncompromising. > Very often the first response to adverse criticism is "Let's see > you do better". While I have seen this type of response here and there, I have *not* seen it with the frequency that you imply. How about giving some supporting examples? I didn't respond to your previous essays because for the most part they dealt with matters of opinion (and besides, others raised many of the points that I would've raised). But in this essay, you spew forth "facts" that are anything but. Instead of making up "facts" that you wish were true, try examining the evidence that is there for anyone to see. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 9 Aug 1985 07:14:10-PDT From: moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN From: 381-2102) Subject: Critics and SF Davis Tucker writes: > Authors often forget that it's better to be terribly excoriated in >print than simply ignored, that anything is preferable to being >overlooked. > There's the science fiction paraphrase of the Republican's 11th >Commandment - "Thou shalt not speak ill of thou fellow authors". >Which is understandable. But there's no group of people who fill >in the void, who provide their readership with accurate insights >into the work behind the work, who tell readers what they can >expect, and why or why not this work is any good. It is my impression that you are describing the feeling that criticism is valid only if it savagely rips apart everything. You use words like "objective" and "accurate", and yet state that authors should welcome being "terribly excoriated in print". Isn't it possible for a critic to admit that something might actually be good? Granted that 90% of everything is crap, that means that there is SOME good stuff. It seems to me that critics are only happy when either decrying the lousy taste of the public by automatically condemning any work which sells well, or lauding to the skies a work which most people (me) find totally unapproachable. I gave up on the New York Times Book Review column for precisely this reason. I grant you that tastes differ, but that doesn't mean that the public (me again) is incapable of finding out *BY THEMSELVES* whether "this work is any good". I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you whether it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read". To me this indicates that the two concepts are orthogonal, and have nothing to do with each other. Thank you, I will ignore both *ART* and critics who talk about *ART* because I have found this bias to be pretentious, boring, unapproachable, and generally gives me no pleasure. (I am thinking specifically of a New Yorker magazine review of "Star Wars (A New Hope)" which ignored the movie to talk about the deep philisophical implications of droids. It missed the entire point of the movie). I will read reviewers who tell me "if its a good read". Ken Moreau ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Aug 85 0916-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #318 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 318 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Haldeman & Harrison & Niven & Zelazny, Films - Captain Eo, Miscellaneous - A Request & SF as Literature & Things to Fear & The Problems with SF & Black Holes & Gravity & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hpfcla!ajs@topaz.arpa (ajs) Subject: Re: Dhalgren Date: 6 Aug 85 00:25:00 GMT > I haven't met many sci-fi readers who don't hold this book with > anything less than awe. I hold it at arm's length, other hand pinching nostrils. I forced myself to read it all the way through, hoping for a punch line that would make it worthwhile. As a literary device it may have merit; as mental masturbation, perhaps some would find it stimulating. As entertainment it fails miserably: it's dark, gloomy, rambling, pointless. No new visions, no wondrous revelations. Don't waste your time. Alan Silverstein ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 01:34:00 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: "Time travel" >From: feldman%nexus.DEC@decwrl.ARPA >There is a novel about a "draftee" who fights in a war where the >distances involved are great and FTLD is used. . . During one of >his early shore leaves, he meets a woman who "waits" for him on a >relativistic shuttle that operates to keep in synch with the >solders. (author and title unknown but I'm sure someone can put >their finger on it) It's gotta be Haldeman's _Forever War_. The woman waits for him only after they have been split by the army or whatever. She's a soldier, too. This is a beautifully ironic treatment of war, and Mandella makes a terrific Everyman. Pacifistically, Paula ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry Subject: Harrison Date: 8 Aug 85 16:52:07 GMT Don't forget the sequels: The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You and The Stainless Steel Rat for President ------------------------------ Date: Fri 9 Aug 85 21:49:04-EDT From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors (SFL V10#313) > Bigger question, though. This one has always bothered me about >Niven's universe. What the heck happens to Home after the >Protectors left to beat off the Pak ? Obviously, our guys win, >because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown. But what >happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating >in the atmosphere ? It bugs me. My guess would be that the Home Protectors continue to keep the human race as a whole as its charge, looking out for us and keeping us out of trouble. The Home colony was given as a failure in the timeline in "Tales of Known Space", and "Protector" has, at least for me, the impression of being a report that was never seen by most of humanity - the Protectors probably just kept Home for themselves as a base. Keep in mind that Protectors live a LONG time, O(10Kyears), so they need not even supplement their numbers very often. Maybe the Puppeteer "eugenics" program for Kzinti and humans is really the result of the Protectors manipulating the Puppeteers... It protects humanity from its most dangerous adversary to date, and makes more sense than the Puppeteers just doing it because "they like humans" (as stated in "Ringworld Engineers"). --Vince ------------------------------ From: goedel!danl@topaz.arpa (Dan Lencina) Subject: 'Want review of "Trumps of Doom"' Date: 9 Aug 85 05:17:03 GMT I've only started to read net.sf-lovers recently, so perhaps I missed it, but I'm surprised that no-one has said *anything* about Roger Zelazny's new Amber book, ``Trumps of Doom''. I can't find and can't afford it in hard-cover, so perhaps somebody would take pity on me and post a non- or semi-spoiler review. Dan L. (aka Dan Lencina) danl%sbcsgoedel@sbcs.CSNET ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: "Captain Eo" Date: 7 Aug 85 22:04:36 GMT Since no one else has mentioned this little wonder yet, I figured I should. "Captain Eo" is one of the most unlikely collaborations I have heard of in years. Minute for minute, it may be the most expensive film ever made. The unholy quartet involved in "Captain Eo" are 1). Disney Studios (studio), 2). George Lucas (producer), 3). Francis Coppola (director), and 4). Michael Jackson (star). The film is sf/fantasy, is set to be fifteen minutes long, and is rumored to be budgeted somewhere between $10 and $15 million. The resulting special effects extravaganza will be shown only at special theaters in Disney amusement parks. The most interesting pairings are Disney and Jackson, and Lucas and Coppola. This is apparently another example of the New Deal at Disney studios, which is producing films with Bette Midler and Madonna, in addition to the fey Mr. Jackson. Lucas and Coppola were originally good friends, with Coppola giving Lucas several of his first breaks. They quarreled (or so it is rumored) over "American Graffiti", and the word was that they more or less weren't speaking to each other. Now they seem to be friendly again. Ironicly, they've switched their old roles. It used to be Coppola who produced films directed by Lucas. I think "Captain Eo" will appear in Disney amusement parks some time next year. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: 9 Aug 85 12:47:32 EDT From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: quoting past messages Could people PLEASE stop quoting the entire message they're replying to? We've already READ the message. If you can't make your comments coherent without making us read the entire message again, please don't make comments. I don't know why I'm bothering, since we just had a flame about this recently and there's been no decrease. Use your head. Sometimes, quoting the reply helps, like when your making a point by point reply, as in the last issue. But usually a point by point reply isn't warranted either. Let's keep the volume down! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 00:58:26 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: sf as literature discussion >From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) >my way of enjoying SF doesn't diminish yours or anyone >else's in this group. If you don't care for criticism, skip >over the critical discussions when you read the news. Alas, if only I could, especially now that we've been warned that there's more coming. Some of us get the whole kit-and- caboodle as *one* message. Either we plow through those postings which bore us (and which invariably seem interminable), or forget the whole thing. I finally decided the only way to deal with it was *not* to look at my e-mail until I could leave my workstation and go to a hard-wired terminal. 200-300 lines of criticism (choke) ruin my whole day at 300 baud. Personally, I read SF as a literature of *ideas*. If the writer hasn't had an interesting or original thought, or some particular insight into human or other interesting nature, it's trash to me. A particularly good example of a novel loaded with fascinating ideas and nauseous narrative was Robert Forward's first, Dragon's Egg. [He has improved, marvelously. That wouldn't necessarily have taken much.] But there have been few stories--ever--so full of fascinating concepts. I guess I've got my own standards of criticism. Paula ------------------------------ Date: Fri 9 Aug 85 17:57:52-EDT From: Glen Daniels Subject: Re: Scary things From uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) >The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the >hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved a >grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl. I can barely >remember the story, but it dealt with the parents trying to get rid >of the doll, and it would show up in strange places after the >attempt. > >I think the thing about it that freaked me out most, was that you >(the viewer) never actually saw the doll move. It would just appear >in certain places, with that twisted little face staring at you. >Very effective. Very Serling. > >Anyone remember a little more about it? I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but there was a TZ episode about a girl who had a doll that her father hated, and it then proceeded to make threats to him, etc... He attempted to destroy it (freaking out his wife + kid by doing so), but couldn't do it (the buzzsaw he used just sent up sparks on contact with it, when he threw it in the trash it came back, etc...). It then said, in a very sweet, dolly voice, "I'm going to kill you." It did. (via him tripping on it and falling down the stairs...) On the original subject, things that have scared us, I submit the following: 1. Waking up from a frightening dream...to find that the fright is real... (Or a dream-witin-a-dream... _An_American_Werewolf_In_ London_ had a good one of these...) 2. Having things that are very close to you become frightening (your mother sprouts fangs and glowing yellow eyes and tries to kill you) 3. Any story where the fright seemed to be so REAL that you could say "That could happen to me tomorrow..." Gub (Glen Daniels, Gub%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 09:21 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: The problems with SF today... Davis Tucker writes: >Has science fiction built such a wall around itself that no >self-respecting critic will vault over it? I don't know whether that's the case or not, but I remember reading a criticism by the book critic of one of the major news magazines - Newsweek. The critic was talking about Michaelmas by Algys Budrys (sp?). Anyway, he began his review by stating that he had read hardly any science fiction but that this book was not like typical science fiction. My question is, if he hasn't read much science fiction, how can he know what "typical science fiction" is like? I agree with the major points of your posting, but I'm not sure that SF is entirely to blame. Many people have preconceived notions as to what SF is like and aren't interested in actually reading some SF to find out if their preconceptions are, indeed, true. I believe this is what has caused the hard, defensive shell (or wall) to form around the genre. Many times in my past I've been asked how I could stand to read such garbage. In every case, the person asking had either 1) never read SF or 2) read one or two books or anthologies (and if it was anthologies they had read they were always collections of stories published in the 30's and 40's). Fortunately, that sort of thing is happening less and less, but the attitude still prevails in many places (now people think SF is just Star Wars in book form) and, unfortunately, many of the people holding those opinions seem to be critics... Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: enmasse!frankr@topaz.arpa (Franklin Reynolds) Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes Date: 9 Aug 85 13:41:37 GMT wmartin@brl-bmd.UUCP writes: >I was thinking about the "anti-matter vs. matter" qualities of what >is inside a black hole, and, at first, was going to agree with the >contention that, no matter the nature of the matter that formed the >black hole, once falls inside, it loses those qualities and becomes >like unto the primordial ylem (do physicists still use that term?) >or at least undefinable. > >Then I thought of the contentions that I have read that the entire >observable universe could be inside a black hole. Since the radius >goes up with the mass, the average density of a hole with the >universe's mass is rather close to the real average density of the >universe... So this would have to depend then on the mass of the >black hole, would it not? After all, a black hole containing our >universe could be orbiting a black hole containing an anti-matter >universe... The way I think it is supposed to work is that there is no difference between a "normal" black hole and an anti-matter black hole from the outside. What is going on inside (within the event horizon) is undetectable to an outside observer. You can think of black holes as write-only ROMs, you can add stuff to them, but you can't get anything back. If a "normal" black hole collided with an anti-matter black hole an outside observer would see a larger black hole as the result. There is no telling what would happen on the inside of the new black hole. Franklin Reynolds Enmasse Computer Corp. genrad!enmasse!frankr ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john) Subject: Re: a Matter of Gravity... Date: 8 Aug 85 00:57:00 GMT >Somebody mentioned that Gravity acted only on matter. The one >catch is, the equations which make up Einsteinian (?) physics all >depend on matter being interchangeable with energy, where gravity >is defined as a form of energy. A good example is the planet Vulcan (Yes there really was one). One of the best ways to discover a new planet was to chart the orbits of the known planets and see if you could spot any perturbation in their orbit that might be caused by an unseen neighbor. Several of the outer ones were discovered using this method. Anyway, someone noticed that Mercury had a wobble in its orbit that suggested another planet orbiting between it and the Sun. This "planet" was dubbed Vulcan and astronomers tried unsuccesfully for years to try and find it. It turned out that the wobble was due to the gravitational effect from the "mass equivalent" of the suns gravitational field. The energy in the field was equivalent to a certain amount of mass and if you considered the effect of this mass the mercury was doing what it was supposed to do. A more complete disscussion can be found in Asimov's "The Planet that wasn't". John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Aug 85 01:15:00 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Talking to aliens >From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) >How many ideas from STAR WARS were new and perceptive. If I speak >to a Frenchman either I speak French or he speaks English. . . . If >I were holding the conversation with an alien, it might be >impossible to speak his language at all. In STAR WARS all >conversations between mutual aliens were conducted with each side >speaking his own language and only understanding the alien >language. That is certainly what would have to be done in an >intergalactic civilization, but the idea appeared first in STAR >WARS to the best of my knowledge. Hate to tell you, but Suzette Haden Elgin used this idea in THE SEVENTH LEVEL, which definitely was published before STAR WARS was made. It may not have been original with her, either. Communicatively, Paula ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Aug 85 0948-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #319 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 12 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 319 Today's Topics: Books - Rosenberg & Zelazny & Female Authors & Age Differences, Films - Back to the Future & Thunder Warriors & Sexism, Miscellaneous - Gravity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: Guardians of the Flame Date: 9 Aug 85 18:00:29 GMT While the characterizations may not be optimal this is due to the fact that this was taken from a role playing game. Not all characters in the game campaign will be played by an animated player, so often the game master (DM) or whoever wrote this had to create the characterization from impression alone. Add to this the fact that the author of this book is probably not a true "writer" in the sense that this type of book is a recreation of sequential events, which are not neccesarily his/her ideas, rather than a full creation of the writer's imagination. The ending to the third book clearly shows the constant game player that this is created from a game: DM: So you've killed the lord and there's no ruler in the area, unrest threatens... Players: Hmmm...... Solution: Well since in this setting all this area belongs to the king who is an npc (non-playing character) why not make the game interesting and reward the pc (player) for succesfully making it through the campaign. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 85 13:04:26 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Magic vs. science >From: wateng!clelau@topaz.arpa (Eric C.L. Lau) >I think Zelzany wrote another book called _The_Changeling_ about >something like this. >The setting was a parallel universe to our own where magic >functions. It was about how two babies got switched between the >two universes by a powerful magician. The one from the "magical" >universe grows up not quite fitting in the "scientific" universe. >The one from the "scientific" universe has the same problem but >uses the scientific knowledge that comes naturally to him to >attempt to take over his world. Eventually the confrontation is >between the two characters and between science and magic. Your memory was right on. There is a sequel, titled Madwand. I have seen/heard Changeling flamed, but I kinda liked it. All the magic appeared to work by perfectly logical rules-- much more believable than abracadabra/anything goes. I did not enjoy Madwand as much, but it was still a fair read. Multiversally, Paula ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Re: Subject: Tepper/McKillip/women_authors/reposting_of_mutilated_article Date: 9 Aug 85 18:11:33 GMT dim@cbuxc.UUCP (Dennis McKiernan) writes: > Sheri Tepper has a wonderful gift: with a few sketches of her > authorial pen she draws an entire culture/civilization. The world > of the *True Game* is drawn so. Ok, so far. > And I cannot but admire her "chasm" civilization that Mavin > visited in book 2 of the Mavin Manyshaped saga. God! Bridgers, > Maintainers, etc.; giant roots reaching down past the Lost Bridge, > all the way to the bottom; cutting roots on each side just the > right length to reach one another and be grafted together to form > a span; she has a wonderful imagination! FLAME ON: As far as I know, this is very similar to them common Ant Farm or Bee's nest. For all we know, it could be! (Think about it...) FLAME OFF. Now, it was decent description and the mystery of the fallen level was cool, but the goo-goo ga-ga stuff was really carried away. > In recent discussions on the net, several have pointed out that > many of their favorite authors are women. Risking being called a > male chauvanist, I believe that women *in general* are better at > describing/understanding the internals of a character, and of > showing character growth, whereas men are better at detailing > action and describing how-things-work. My main complaint about some women authors is that they sometimes get carried away with a particular notion: Example 1) Marion Zimmer Bradley who is perhaps the greatest FEMALE chauvanist I have ever read! (Although I did like a few of her books and Darkover collections). Example 2)) I love magic. MacAvoy describes witchery unbelieveably well in Damiano. But then she makes him mundane, and then Raphael too?! In the Book of Kells she gets this great time/dimension door idea with the cross, but that's it. I asked her at an SF convention why she strays away from the magic, and her reply was that basically, she has a zen kind of approach and considers man alone, without magic and powers, to be enough of a topic. Unfortunately, sf & fantasy in my opinion deal in out of the norm. power so I have ceased to read her works, although I will grab the sequel to Tea when it comes out. Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 85 12:40:18 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: SF using lover's age differences >>From: Henry Vogel >>I'm speaking of the age of the male characters compared to that of >>the female characters. Varley's men are almost always twice (or >>more) the age of the women they end up with...It's not something I >>mind, it's just something I found curious... Has anyone else >>noticed this or am I just imagining it? >From: drutx!slb@topaz.arpa (Sue Brezden) >Larry Niven tends to have a great age mismatch between his lovers, >also. For instance, in Ringworld we have Teela Brown and Louis Wu. >And who can forget the lady with the horrible long name that Louis >finally gets? (I'm not at home, so can't look it up.) There are >other examples, also. >What other SF writers have used this device? The lady with the horrible long name was Halrloprillar, more frequently referred to as Prill. This device is more common than most people notice. Heinlein uses it with increasingly boring frequency in more recent years. An earlier (and more entertaining) occasion was in Glory Road. I think it's more common in fantasy (which Glory Road was) than in SF. ** SPOILERS ** SPOILERS ** SPOILERS ** David Brin used it in Sundiver. Jacob Demwa is a young man, and the captain is only *relativistically* young. Sturgeon used age differences a few times. In "When You Love, When You Care," the heroine hires the development of cold sleep so that she can wait for a clone of her lover to grow up. Which is a plot device in at least one other story [but I can't remember the author or title]. Poul Anderson used it in The Man Who Counts and a few other times, I'm pretty sure. Asimov's hero in The Gods Themselves winds up with a much younger woman on the moon. In McCaffrey's Crystal Singer, Killashandra is taken to the Guild by her *much* older lover. Marion Zimmer Bradley has a timeflow difference in House Between Worlds, and some couples who couldn't otherwise have happened. Phil Jose Farmer has 19 impossible things before breakfast, in most of his stuff. You can find lots of misassorted couples, like the World of Tier series. There are some striking age differentials in some of Silverberg's Majipoor love stories. Lafferty also has some strange bedfellows. Vonda McIntyre's novel set in the same future as Dreamsnake has the hero coming to Earth as companion to an aged, dying woman pilot. You'll find lots of age mis-assortment in Zelazny's Amber series, as well as in things like "Rose for Ecclesiastes." And there's always such classic stuff as H. Rider Haggard's She. I know that this does not by any means exhaust the store of such things. One of the more popular assumptions of future settings for SF stories is either life-extension or anti-thanatics. Both of these *will* produce a greater availability of interactions. I just remembered somebody's construct--the Struldbrugs, and one story with a very young woman who is fascinated with her lovers fantastic collection of wrinkles and scars. Can't remember the author. Somebody will, I'm sure. (Silverbob?) Ain't love strange? Paula ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: BTTF:Production Design Date: 5 Aug 85 21:56:55 GMT psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes: >Boebert.SCOMP@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >> Does anybody know which town they redecorated? >I hate to tell you this, but the downtown area in BACK TO THE >FUTURE looked a lot like the generic downtown in the Universal >studios lot. Having been on the lot the day I saw the movie, I can answer this definitively: The downtown scenes from BTTF were shot on the "Town Square" lot at Universal. Incidentally, the cats on either side of the clock are the same ones used in the remake of "Cat People". -- Scott ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa Subject: THUNDER WARRIORS Date: 7 Aug 85 04:00:44 GMT THUNDER WARRIORS is Canon Group's rip-off of the Mad Max movies. In retrospect, I'm surprised that no one has tried to rip-off the concept before this. THUNDER WARRIORS is set after the fall of civilization due to a nuclear war. The war was started by the Americans when the missile alert system failed and erroneously reported a Soviet missile attack. [You'll be pleased to know that, despite destroying the world as a bad side-effect, America won the war.] The main feature of society after the crash is that the sexes have divided into two camps. The women live in a small fortified city, supporting themselves by farming. The men live nomadic lives in the surrounding hills, often in areas of dangerous radioactivity. In general, the women dominate the men, primarily due to their higher level of civilization (i.e., better weapons). The women occaisonally visit a place of "seeding" where captured men specially trained for stud service impregnate them. The plot follows rather haphazardly the careers of a man who will in time become the leader of the men and a woman who will become the leader of the women. Now, I know what you are thinking. You are saying to yourself, Self, I know exactly what is going to happen. The men and the women are going to come into conflict. The man leader is going to have to deal with the woman leader. Somehow, they are going to fall in love, and magically, the two sides are going to be unified and everything ends happily ever after. Well. Yes. Besides being utterly predictable and boring (ho hummmm) this movie has a number of other glaring faults. For starters, the acting is terrible. The two main characters in the men's camp give passable performances, but nearly every female character is horribly over-played or acted with wooden technique. The only bright spot amongst the cast is the fawning old man who is the keeper of the toys (the young male children in the female camp, who have no point at all). He plays an outrageously campy old queen, and provides a desperately needed bit of comic relief. Of course, the script helps him a bit: Near the end of the film he gets knifed in the back. Blood spurts out of his mouth, and he falls to the ground a sure goner. Moments later he struggles to lift his head. He has to warn the men's camp! Painfully he begins to crawl away. Several days later we spot him again, still crawling, now several miles away from the women's camp, still desperately trying to reach the men. Played straight, I swear! Some other particularly bad points: o Mutation is equal to blue fruit in the minds of these film-makers. o A cassette tape left over from before the war proves to have Wagner's Valkyrie and JLL's Whole Lotta Shaking Going On on it back to back. o The women are constantly fighting in some of the most poorly choreographed fight scenes ever to grace nitrate stock. The scenes where the women fight the men are particularly bad. o In a post-holocaust world where living is a day to day struggle, the women find time to have their hair professionally done. They also apparently found a huge cache of make-up. o A scene many feminists should find repugnant: One of the woman characters is sent for her seeding, an event she finds obviously distasteful and counter to her beliefs. In fact, she is tied to the bed. Yet, once the act starts, she begins to enjoy it, and at the end of the film ends up with her seeder. The most annoying facet of the movie was the complete ignorance the film-makers demonstrated concerning human psychology. The seeding scene above is one example. There is no homosexuality in either camp. Neither the men nor the women have any sexual motivation. Lifelong slaves are freed and, upon bathing, become free men in every way. Despite years of antipathy, the two leaders fall in love (and in bed) immediately. (They also magically know what to do once they get there.) In short, we are talking about a bad, bad film here. Far and away the worst film I have seen in a LONG time. Even worse (gulp!) than European Vacation. (Un)Fortunately, I saw it at a studio preview, so it may never see the light of day. We can but hope. -- Scott ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Spielberg Sexist? Date: 6 Aug 85 05:29:00 GMT Two great fallacies about Spielberg movies: 1) All that Steven Spielberg touches turns to gold. In evidence against this, I would like to mention "~The Sugarland Express" (something like that), which was one of SS's earlier films and went over like a lead balloon. There may have been some extenuating circumstances: "Sugarland" was based, very closely, upon a true story. An interesting thing: after this flopped, it took SS a long time to get anyone to even think about hiring him. 2) SS has never had a major female character. Although Princess Leia is not exactly Kate Hepburn, she isn't all sweetness and light either. Much of her problem stems from Hollywood typescripting. However, in "Sugarland" SS had Goldie Hawn playing the main character, who happened to have a very strong personality. This also may have had something to do with the film's short life. The funny thing is, "Sugarland" is re-run fairly often on late-night T.V., esp. CBS orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: a Matter of Gravity... Date: 6 Aug 85 05:34:00 GMT Somebody mentioned that Gravity acted only on matter. The one catch is, the equations which make up Einsteinian (?) physics all depend on matter being interchangeable with energy, where gravity is defined as a form of energy. T'other catch is, those fundamental equations also state that all energy is interdependent, and we'll know how when we get a working Unified field Theory. BTW, we can make black holes. It just takes far to much effort to build one at this late date in man's exploration of space. orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Aug 85 0851-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #320 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 320 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Van Vogt & Some Reviews, Music - More SF in Music, Miscellaneous - Colonization & Contacting Authors & Paying Convention Guests & Ewoks & Aliens (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren Date: 7 Aug 85 18:49:12 GMT Dhalgren is a lot easier to understand and appreciate once you know about a few of Delany's learning disabilities. First, Delany is an epileptic who is prone to petit mal fits that wipe out his memories of the past short while. Second, Delany has a learning disability that makes it difficult for him to remember the temporal order of his experiences: in other words, he often can't remember what came first in a sequence of events. Third, he has a form of dyslexia that slows his reading considerably. Fourth, he has a poor spatial memory, which means that he often can't remember exactly where things were. Dhalgren is his attempt to convey his experiences to the reader. The hero has significant memory problems. For example, he constantly finds material in his notebook that he can't remember writing. He occasionally thinks the buildings have moved closer or further away from the river. The order of events is constantly confused. The hero frequently has a good deal of difficulty reading. Many people feel that Dhalgren goes on too long without clarifying anything. On the other hand, if you see it as an attempt to give the reader an experience of the author's world, you _have_ to take a fair amount of time so you can adjust and begin to feel at home. By the end of Dhalgren, I more or less understood what had happened and the order in which it happened. If you can accept the total mental disorientation, I think the vividness of the imagery is well worth the read. One warning though: it is hard to say that Dhalgren has a story as such. A general requirement of a "story" is that a sequence of events changes a character or set of characters in some way. I'm not sure that anyone is changed by the events in Dhalgren (which may be Delany's point). Therefore you get the feeling that nothing has been accomplished. A better way to approach the book is to regard it as a form of poetry (odd concept though that is). Most people don't find Dhalgren their cup of tea, and I can certainly understand that. However, Delany can write the socks off practically any other modern writer, even when you hate his material. It's well worth anyone's while to go to the library and take out Dhalgren to see if you like it. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: teklabs!donch@topaz.arpa (Don Chitwood) Subject: A.E. Van Vogt's 3rd Null-A Novel Date: 10 Aug 85 00:15:01 GMT I just finished the latest A.E. Van Vogt Null-A novel (damned if I can remember the name of it.), copyright July l985. The first two, The Worlds of Null-A and Pawns of Null-A, are two of my all-time favorites, particularly since they introduced me to the field of General Semantics. With this one, I'm disappointed, largely because he comes up with a pretty good conceptual followup to the first two, but he bungles the story with his difficult writing style. In this latest novel, it was apparent to me that many years had gone by since the last one was written. The feel of the characters is just too modern. Their language has lots of contemporary slang. My biggest difficulty with the book was the jumping-around style van Vogt affects. From the very beginning, I had to re-read sections to discover that we were now on earth or in a spaceship or etc. He makes lots of assumptions, rather Gosseyn does, that fly in the face of General Semantics thinking. Hmm, since I wanted this to be a non-spoiler and I don't have the book in front of me to excerpt examples, this is about the extent of my comments. In summary, he blew it. Makes me mad. Don Chitwood Teklabs Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa Subject: Comments on Recent Reads Date: 8 Aug 85 19:17:43 GMT Some various comments on recent reads, namely LYONESSE by Vance and JHEREG/YENDI by Steven Brust. LYONESSE is a new fantasy by Vance. It is actually the first book in a series according to the title page. The cover doesn't mention this, which I take to be deceptive advertising at its worst, but perhaps it only signals that publishers are becoming as wary of multi-book fantasies as the general reading public. The story follows the political happenings in a set of islands south of England off the coast of France, an island chain that later sunk, leaving behind some of the mythology of England (Avalon) and Ireland. Principally the story focuses on a Prince Aillar and his travails as he attempts to find his son. However the story is less personal than most fantasies. One interesting thing about LYONESSE is its structure. LYONESSE is written in the style halfway between a history textbook and the modern novel. At times the book is very dry and impersonal; at times it follows rather closely the affairs of one or another character and approaches the modern novel. To add to this, the episodes within the novel are often of the classic fairy tale form: a young man, away from home, gifted with this or the other magical implement, confronting some monster. As in a fairy tale, the violence and death in the book is often dry and offhand, without any of the "realistic" angst that has become a staple in the fantasy genre. Similarly, the solutions to many of the problems the characters face come in bland, unexpectedly simple ways. This may sound like a criticism, but in fact it isn't. Vance's style in LYONESSE is rather refreshing. Fairy tales are quite fun in their own right, and to have a number of them set in the framework of a historical novel is peculiarly satisfying. I'm not sure everyone will enjoy this book, but I think everyone will find the style quite interesting. JHEREG/YENDI have already been discussed any number of times on the net, so I won't go into any depth on these two books. I found them very enjoyable, perhaps some of the best fantasy I've read this summer. Reading them in close conjunction with LYONESSE made for an interesting juxtaposition of styles. Where LYONESSE reads like a fairy tale, JHEREG/YENDI reads like a fantasy role-playing game -- so much so that I wonder whether the novels have some basis in FRP. Perhaps not. At any rate, J/Y are interesting in contrast to LYONESSE because they are so modern in style. Without great modification J/Y could have been written about a struggle within organized crime today -- and still have been good. That is a compliment to SKZB, of course: his work is good not because it is fantasy, but despite being fantasy. (And in retrospect only lowers my opinion of To Reign In Hell.) My only other comment on YENDI is to wonder whether the Monty Python joke was intentional or not (on page 190 for those of you who missed it). -- Scott ------------------------------ From: diku!kimcm@topaz.arpa (Kim Christian Madsen) Subject: Re: SF in music--SUMMARY Date: 11 Aug 85 06:59:15 GMT Also missing is: Pink Floyd Saucerful of secrets & Wellcome to the machine. David Bowie Ashes to Ashes, Starman and Memory of a Free Festival. Wings Venus and Mars. Kim Chr. Madsen a.k.a. kimcm@diku.uucp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Aug 85 14:03:21 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: STL colonization and exponential growth Not a problem. Warwick!simon@topaz ignores time dilation. Whenever a solar system gets too crowded, people can travel to an arbitrarily distant point in an arbitrarily short time by travelling close enough to the speed of light. Or they could use suspended animation and travel slower. Anyway, it's silly to use arguments like this against space colonization. One solar system alone could easily support a population of about 10**20 people, billions of times Earth's present population. If only one person in a billion is a Mozart or an Einstein, think how wonderful the arts and sciences would become with a solar population of 10**20. Or a galactic population of 10**30. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #303 Date: 9 Aug 85 19:47:42 GMT >From: JFusco.es@Xerox.ARPA >Can anyone tell me how to get in touch with Ray Bradbury,or his >agent, short of going through his publishing company. My wife's >company would like to book him for a speaking engagement. Sorry to post this rather than mailing, but I can't believe the path I got would work.... I don't have Ray's address right at hand, but it can be gotten (along with the address of practically any other writer, SF or otherwise) from a reference book that most libraries have. Call your local library and ask the reference librarian. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.arpa (nyssa of traken) Subject: Re: Payment to guests at cons Date: 10 Aug 85 13:58:16 GMT The way I understand it, payment of guests varies from con to con. If a local club decides to try to run a con, the stars will get less than they'd get from Spirit of Light. Room and board are both covered (of course), as is all transportation. Cons which do not provide this often turn out to be terrible ones, for many reasons! Precise figures, I do not know. Probably around $1000 or so for Colin Baker, less for companions. Planning on running one? :-) James C. Armstrong, Jnr. {ihnp4,cbosgd,akgua}!abnji!nyssa ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: "cute" Ewoks Date: 9 Aug 85 18:50:52 GMT bnw@crash.UUCP writes: > There has been much speculation about the ability of little >Ewoks to produce the kind of attack depicted in the film. I would >agree with those who suggest that this is a hunting society, so >some of the item seen would have been built; another idea presented >by someone here was that the Stormtroopers had been a problem for >the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had already been fighting >back. > Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater >capability than they have been credited with. I think there has >been an erroneous tendency to look at a little Ewok and dismiss any >possibility of heavy work quickly. I submit, however, that four to >six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, and fifty Ewoks, using >a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the stripped log. >Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into a pile >restrained by a keystone-type lever. My doubts that the Ewoks could have prepared their defenses as quickly as they did were not based on denigrating their physical characteristics. Let me clarify by stating that I don't think a group of humans at the same cultural level could have built those defenses in less than a few weeks, either. There are several problems with a faster schedule. First, note that there must have been more defenses which were not triggered in the movie. The Ewoks had to prepare for walkers emerging from the installation in any direction, unless they were to rely on really incredible luck. Second, note that the defenses were specifically oriented to fighting the Imperials. I do not think such a variety could have been invented overnight; and even if invented, relatively few craftsmen can make a new invention accurately the first time. There is a learning curve involved. This is especially true for group activities. Finally, I think you underestimate the difficulty of building some of these things with primitive tools. Consider medieval siege engines, which took weeks to build with better tools. A pile of logs (one of the simpler devices) seems trivial, but it must be set up to be stable until you are ready to use it, then go rolling quickly in the proper direction when released. I would expect a modern army to take at least a day or two to get it right. ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: The Great Silence Date: 9 Aug 85 18:20:51 GMT >From: >Perhaps the problem is simply that there is no reason why anyone >should have found us. This is an excerpt from _Cosmos_ by Dr. Carl >Sagan. > ". . .If a great many years ago an advanced interstellar >spacefaring civilization emerged 200 light-years away, it would >have no reason to think there was anything special about the Earth >unless it had been here already. No artifact of human technology, >not even our radio transmissions, has had time, even travelling at >the speed of light, to go 200 light-years. From their point of >view, all nearby star systems are more or less equally attractive >for exploration or colonization." > ". . .A sphere two hundred light-years in radius contains >200,000 suns and perhaps a comparable number of worlds suitable for >colonization. . ." > > Why the silence? We're just one little regarded blue-green >world at the unfashionable end of a spiral arm in the Milky Way >galaxy. One more time ... an intelligent race with interstellar flight doesn't go to just a few places, it goes everywhere. All nearby star systems are more or less equally attractive, so you colonize all the nearby star systems. A few dozen generations later, you have filled up all the nearby star systems, so you colonize the next layer out. In a few hundred thousand years, you have filled the galaxy. All of it. A race from a planet where life started at the same time as on Earth, which evolved to a technological civilization one percent faster, has had thirty million years or so to spread out since. That is time enough to fill the galaxy about a hundred times over. "They just haven't found us [yet]" is just not an adequate explanation. Most plausible explanations for why they aren't here are variations on three themes: (1) they aren't there, (2) they are deliberately leaving us alone, and (3) war prevents permanent settlement of planets. And remember the time scales involved for (2) -- they have to have decided to leave "us" alone while "we" were dinosaurs (or perhaps earlier; I'm not quite sure of the evolutionary time scale (if you don't believe in the evolution of species, send comments to net.origins where I won't have to read them)). Now this does not mean that SETI is hopeless. They may be just waiting for us to contact them to welcome us into the Galactic Federation. But it seems about equally likely to me that as soon as they detect us, they will come by to sterilize our planet, before we can do the same to them. But we should not *expect* SETI to succeed. ------------------------------ From: rayssd!gmp@topaz.arpa (Gregory M. Paris) Subject: Re: Re: Those inquisitive aliens Date: 11 Aug 85 01:00:47 GMT >Any alien in the solar system will notice us on Earth!!! ... > From a low orbit (i.e. a LandSat satellite, from which we get > those pretty pictures) only. From the distance of the moon, such > features are invisible. In fact, ALL signs of civilization > (except for radio emissions, of which enough has already been > said) are invisible. This talk about low orbits is just nonsense. If aliens are going to bother to come all this way to visit our star system, I'm pretty sure they'll take just a little more time to investigate the planets (and probably larger moons as well). More likely, spacefaring aliens are headed toward the galactic hub. There the star densities are much higher, providing richer "ground" for whatever it is they're looking for. Greg Paris {allegra,linus,raybed2,ccice5,brunix}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Aug 85 0919-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #321 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 321 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (3 msgs) & Wyndham & Story Request, Films - Real Genius, Miscellaneous - N.E.T.L.A. & NASFiC & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun 11 Aug 85 11:31:37-EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: protector psychology To: rlk@MIT-ATHENA.ARPA > From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU > Rob Austein's response doesn't work, because Brennan didn't worry > about his bloodline either and he got the original tree-of-life. Of course he worried about his own bloodline. *All* of his descendants (except Truesdale) were in Sol system. That's why he didn't even tell the UN and the Belt what was going on. Even Truesdale's kid was in Sol system. And Brennan knew damned well how old Truesdale was, so he knew that Truesdale would make it to Protector ok. Of course, *after* Truesdale became a Protector he was at risk, but that's what Protectors are for, yes? And there can't be an instinct/drive in the original Tree-Of-Life against letting your descendants become Protectors, for obvious reasons. Even so, Brennan was worried sick about Truesdale, if you remember -- he actually made some irrational decisions, he was so upset, and it cost him his life. > PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the > ringworld being built? It did have the reference to the > expedition to Earth, which was much smaller. Now, I ask you, if you were a Protector paranoid to build something like the ringworld, would you be silly enough to leave traces to be found by the first family that decides it wants a *lot* of elbow room? --Rob ------------------------------ To: Dave Godwin Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors Date: 11 Aug 85 17:49:39 PDT (Sun) From: Jim Hester I didn't go back and check this, but it was my understanding that Tree-of-Life virus could not survive (or, at least, was not effective) without Tree-of-Life root. That's why the protectors died out in the original Earth expedition: the root died, and the virus with it. The protectors on Home would almost certainly take all the root with them, since they did not want to raise more protectors after them. Virus in the air would not be a danger. Jim ------------------------------ Subject: Protectors and the Ringworld From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Michael Johnson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 85 21:12:45 EDT rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU writes: > PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the > ringworld being built? It did have the reference to the > expedition to Earth, which was much smaller. This has bothered me for some time too. I think this is a slip up in Niven's chronology. There are a number of things about the Protectors and the Ringworld that don't seem to fit. 1) The Pak library made no mention (that we have seen) about any expedition leaving the Pak homeworld for the general direction of Sol between the original that we know about and Pthsspok. By the size of the expedition, it certainly SHOULD have gotten some mention. It would have required at least as much effort as the original and considerably more than Pthsspok's. 2) The Ringworld was too old to have been built by any Protectors who left after Pthsspok. 3) It had to happen after the original Sol expedition because the Protectors of the Ringworld had SOLVED the Thalium Oxide problem. Certainly the Protectors who reached Earth would not have failed to research and find this bit of (decidedly vital) information if it existed. 4) Certainly if this expedition had occured Pthsspok would have found some mention of it. Obviously he did not, or he would not have had to solve the Thalium Oxide problem again. It seems to me that by all rights the Ringworld should not exist. There are two logical possibilities that come to mind that excuse this existence. 1) The Ringworld was built by a SECRET expedition from the Pak homeworld. How something like such an expedition could be kept secret, considering the intelligence (read 'spy') efforts of the rival Protector factions would have tried to find them out, fails to come to mind. 2) The Ringworld was built by an expedition that left Pak in a different direction and later sent a secondary expedition in the direction of Sol. This would have to have occured before the Sol expedition, else Pthsspok would have found the records of their having solved the Thalium Oxide problem (you can bet he looked). It is possible that records before the Sol expedition could have been lost, but highly unlikely that records of an expedition after the Sol one would have been lost without also losing the the Sol records. The original expedition must have been in pretty good shape to send out a party capable of building the Ringworld. With only slower than light ships, why bother to send them as far away as they must have? There must have been other habitable systems closer to where they were. They couldn't have been in the neighborhood of Sol originally because they would surely have left other artifacts around. We are talking a LARGE neighborhood here, since the Puppeteers conducted commerce in a VERY large region of space. If they had evidence of other Pak civilizations in the area, there probably would have been some mention of the fact. Mike Johnson ------------------------------ Subject: John Wyndham's "Re-Birth" Date: 11 Aug 85 22:15:18 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne Somebody asked whether Wyndham's REBIRTH had anything to do with another story which he called something like "Flight from Rebirth" (don't have the original posting available, sorry). It does not. 1. REBIRTH is simply a renaming of the book originally called THE CHRYSALIDS. For some reason, with which Jayembee would perhaps oblige us, all Wyndham's books seem to acquire new titles when they reach the US (It occurs to me that since Penguin books distributes through all Commonwealth countries, Canada probably doesn't have this problem). 2. THE CHRYSALIDS (as I will now refer to it) is a powerful and unsettling story set in a time which the reader eventually realises is the far future. It centres around certain younger members of a farming community which appears to be in the Labrador area of Newfoundland (the people just call it "Lab"). Their lives are dominated by religious puritanism, in particular with such directives as "Blessed is the Norm", and "In Purity our Salvation". The stories told which lead to these morals speak of the Tribulation, a time who knows how long ago, when God's anger with the world was manifested, and much was wiped away, to cause new, simpler, cleaner lives to be started. The protagonist has the misfortune to be the son of the very vocal leader of the zealotes who most espouse the purity ethics, which he doesn't properly understand, and whose consequences he only slowly discovers as he is growing up (for instance: newborn farm animals with abnormalities are called Abominations, and are ritually destroyed; children with abnormalities are called Blasphemies; a woman who bears a Blasphemy may [probably will] be whipped; if it happens twice, her husband may throw her out and seek a new wife). But he has at least the luck and the wit to say nothing when he discovers that he himself is not normal. The story takes off from there, and it is one of Wyndham's finest. I don't want to say what other currently popular category it also fits, since that might tend to spoil it for those who haven't read it, but it is the first and the best of that category I've ever read. A truly powerful book. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 85 15:24:34 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Motorcycles in SF There was a very interesting story some years ago about a Hell's Angel type who gets transported into the future by a bolt of lightning or something, meets the new version of bikers, and has an interesting time of it. It *might* have been by Spinrad, but I'm not sure. Anyone remember for sure, and the title? Transportedly, Paula ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 85 16:28:22 EDT From: dave mankins Subject: Danny Dunn goes to the Movies or, Tom Swift and his electric shadows or, The Technology Hacking Society, their adventures in Hollywood, and what they found there. Movie: Real Genius pico-review: !!!!! nano-review: Go see it! Go see it! review: ``Real Genius'' is the story of a couple of Very Bright students at ``Pacific Tech'', the sort of school that attracts fifteen year-old prodigies who win science fairs by building molecular-Iodine lasers from things you can find in your own basement and closets. It details the travails of tooling and exploitation by an unscrupulous professor who has enlisted two prodigies (Chris Knight, senior, and former star of the National High-School Student Physics Club and Mitch Taylor the afore-mentioned 15-year-old freshman) to complete a special laser project wanted by the CIA (no spoiler, you find this out in the first two minutes of the movie). We first see Mitch at the science fair, where Professor Hathaway arrives to tell him he's been accepted to Pacific Tech, and that Hathaway wants him for his research project. You learn right away that Hathaway is a baddie, as he despises anyone with an IQ less than 150 (``Compared to you and me, Mitch, most other people have the mentality of carrots.'') and that he hates popcorn. When Mitch arrives at college, he finds the hallway covered with ice (``You've gone too far Vic! Who's going to clean up this mess?'' ``Don't worry, it's taken care of--the ice will just sublime directly into gas!''), the walls covered with grafitti (my god, I'm considering going back to this movie just to concentrate on the graffiti alone!), and his room-mate flying a radio-controlled cross between a fan and a gyroscope around the room. His room-mate, Chris Knight, is Prof. Hathaway's other star student. Chris is suffering from severe burn-out and is rebelling against everything Hathaway stands for. Every exhalation is accompanied by a witty remark, a lunatic sequitur, a zinging effrontery. Chris has seen the other side of the tooling and has become a clown out of fear of becoming a robot. This movie really gets inside the mind of the engineering school student: it portrays the atmosphere of the dorms, the hacks, the classes, the humor. All that was missing was a ``Sport Death'' T-shirt (although ``I (heart) Toxic Waste'' isn't bad). It also captures the taste of technical sweetness that lets people blind themselves to the applications of their work in pursuit of Making It Better. You can feel their excitement at making that laser more powerful. And my god! They got REAL TECHNICAL CONSULTANTS TO MAKE SURE THEY DIDN'T SAY STUPID THINGS!!! REALLY! It even listed a hacking consultant in the credits. This movie has a number of good things to be said for it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 11 Aug 85 16:03:39-EDT From: Jonathan S. Drukman Subject: N.E.T.L.A. Are you a Doctor Who fan? If so, please consider joining the New England Time Lord Academy. We are a local organization (at present) with approx. 30-35 members. However, we have contacts with Channel 11, Channel 2 and Creation and will appear in person on Channel 11 on the weekends of August 17, and 24. If you are interested in joining, call Jon Drukman (617)-969-1574 address: 23 Locksley Road, Newton MA 02159 for information. ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 11 Aug 1985 19:04:39-PDT From: rbrown%mariah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ron Brown - The Midnight Manager From: - DTN 522-2251) Subject: NASFiC in Austin Texas Would like to go to the NASFiC conference in Austin. Anyone out there have information on it? Or who might I call? Ron ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: The Great Silence Date: 11 Aug 85 16:51:22 GMT franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >One more time ... an intelligent race with interstellar flight >doesn't go to just a few places, it goes everywhere. All nearby >star systems are more or less equally attractive, so you colonize >all the nearby star systems. A few dozen generations later, you >have filled up all the nearby star systems, so you colonize the >next layer out. In a few hundred thousand years, you have filled >the galaxy. All of it. Really? Isn't this article just a little anthropocentric? To do this, a race needs a whole list of things: lots of energy, lots of technology, and (most importantly) motivation. A race which doesn't have a severe population growth problem doesn't need to colonize. Resources for thousands of years are to be had in one's own solar system. A race which is just starting interstellar travel has enourmous constraints. Generation ships are SLOW. Assuming that FTL travel isn't possible, the energy needed to travel at reasonable speeds is tremendous. Since probes in the EM spectrum are relatively cheap, it makes some sense to pick and choose. If all Bernard's Star has is big gas planets, then it's going to take a lot of energy to make something livable there for a race like us. Detecting terrestrial planets over interstellar distances is enourmously difficult. They emit essentially no thermal radiation, they are too small to occult anything or influence the obvious body's orbits. The only way one could detect Earth from interstellar distances is to detect man-made radio emissions; we've already discussed reasons why these are difficult to detect and have reached only a few stars anyway. This brings us to the question of why one would want to visit a planet which is apparently inhabited. >A race from a planet where life started at the same time as on >Earth, which evolved to a technological civilization one percent >faster, has had thirty million years or so to spread out since. >That is time enough to fill the galaxy about a hundred times over. >"They just haven't found us [yet]" is just not an adequate >explanation. This baldly assumes that they have a pressing desire to do so, and the technology to accomplish it. >Most plausible explanations for why they aren't here are variations >on three themes: (1) they aren't there, (2) they are deliberately >leaving us alone, and (3) war prevents permanent settlement of >planets. And remember the time scales involved for (2) -- they >have to have decided to leave "us" alone while "we" were dinosaurs >(or perhaps earlier; I'm not quite sure of the evolutionary time >scale (if you don't believe in the evolution of species, send >comments to net.origins where I won't have to read them)). And 4) they haven't looked hard enough or had the time to. Assuming you had the power to search the entire galaxy for life, it's still going to take a long time to find any. Also 5) we aren't very interesting to them. >Now this does not mean that SETI is hopeless. They may be just >waiting for us to contact them to welcome us into the Galactic >Federation. But it seems about equally likely to me that as soon >as they detect us, they will come by to sterilize our planet, >before we can do the same to them. But we should not *expect* SETI >to succeed. Likelyhood here is essentially meaningless. We are on an obscure planet whose civilization could only be apparent to those within 20 light years of us. Therefore the only real explanation must be that whatever civilization is on the planets within that range either a) hasn't noticed, b) doesn't care, or c) hasn't had enough time to act. (Remember, only those within 10 lightyears have had time to get back to us.) Or d) has acted, but we didn't notice. C Wingate ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Aug 85 0950-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #322 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 13 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 322 Today's Topics: Books - Delany (3 msgs) & Harrison & Niven (2 msgs) & Van Vogt & Wylie, Films - Fantastic Voyage, Music - Rhiannon, Miscellaneous - Antimatter Girls (2 msgs) & The Problems of SF & Brautigan & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Samual Delany's Dahlgren Date: 10 Aug 85 16:00:26 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: ... abbreviated here ... >Almost all of Delany's books have a protagonist or major character >with disfigured hands. Off the top of my head, this is true of >Dhalgren, Triton, the first two Neveryon books (and possibly the >third, I haven't read it yet), and Stars in My Pockets Like Grains >of Sand. I greatly suspect the same thing is true of Nova. Absolutely. Prince Red not only has no (right I think) hand, but is actually neurologically damaged in a way that makes a conventional transplant impossible, so that he requires a prosthesis; this is almost unknown in Prince's universe. (I've always wondered how Prince controlled his prosthesis, as I suspect from the book's description that Prince would not only not be able to control the hand directly (the associated part of his brain is missing) but that he would actually have trouble conceiving of the idea of using a right hand, just as my dyslexia makes it difficult for me to even understand that other people can't read mirror writing. But that's another think entirely.) >Don't ask me why. Either Delany dislikes his hands, he knows >someone with disfigured hands, or it's some literary allusion I >don't understand. Here's my frivolous literary theory of the week (I'm trying to restrict myself until I a) finish the damn' novel or b) finish my damn' thesis): A deformity of the hands could symbolize powerlessness -- an inability to "handle" the world or some part of it. That fits with Nova, at least. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 85 11:53:37 EDT From: Jim Hofmann To: newman.pasa@xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: Dhalgren Mr newman: Thanks for setting everybody straight. It would be nice if you brought up some examples as to why you think Dhalgren is not up to your standards. Oh and yes, I do come from another planet. One much cooler than this one. Planet Claire. Come up and see us sometime. Jim Hofmann PS When I get sometime I'll post a real review of Dhalgren and why I thought it deserves the Nebula award it got. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 85 09:55 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Re: Dhalgren To: hofmann@AMSAA.ARPA Mr Jim, I like to read about people that I can empathize with. I cannot empathize with anyone in Dhalgren. (Perhaps that's my fault ... maybe I am an emotional cripple) Also, I like to read books that seem to have some direction and a plot that I can understand (so I'm a mental midget... I'm not alone). Perhaps it is great literature. Perhaps it has great redeeming value. All I know is that I was really bored while reading it, and also confused. I was sooo bored and confused that I didn't finish the book - a rare occurrence. I get enough boredom and confusion in my real life that I don't need it from my escapist literature. As I said in my earlier posting, I am primarily trying to erase the notion that everyone thinks that Dhalgren is the greatest thing since sliced bread. If you and everyone you have ever met think that Dhalgren is Delaney's , that is wonderful. However, I have never met anyone personally who liked the book, and I wanted to warn those poor folk who thought to read a wonderful book that won the Nebula award that they might not like it. Dave PS I'm sorry if my personal opinions offended you. I'm sorry if you interpreted my note as a personal flame. I like colorful language and wild expressions; I guess I should include a warning for sensitive folk when I make another outragous posting. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry Subject: Harrison Date: 12 Aug 85 10:53:17 PDT (Mon) From: Jim Hester Just to set the record straight, Jim DeGriz never does more than think lecherously about anyone but his one true love (a Stainless Steel Rat herself), partially because she is extremely jealous and a (mostly) reformed ruthless killer. She used to kill for the fun of it, now only when she has a reason, like someone giving her a dirty look, or a possibly unfaithful husband. I disagree that Harrison wrote it so straight as to be funny. It seems to me he played it for as many laughs as he could, quite intentionally. Jim (the narrator of the stories) describes everything sarcastically, primarily attacking all forms of government bureaucracy. This does not happen by accident. The main reason I replied, though, is to point out that there are (at least) five Stainless Steel Rat novels, the first three of which have been collected in THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT: The Stainless Steel Rat The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World The other two are sold separately. I am not positive of the order of these two, but think I got it right: The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You The Stainless Steel Rat for President ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 85 09:30:35 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: protectors Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector in "Down in Flames"? DIF takes place about the same time as The Ringworld Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over 200 years old. Beowulf is Louis's stepfather, so he is closer to 300...way WAY past the maximum age to become a protector! Ideas? marty (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) [Moderator's Note: Down in Flames is a story outline written by Niven some years ago which basically destroy's most of his previous 'known space' works. It is available from Rutgers via the ANONYMOUS login of FTP *only*. The file is T:DOWN-IN-FLAMES.TXT.] ------------------------------ From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA Subject: Re: protector psychology Date: 11 Aug 85 18:57:00 GMT rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU writes: >PS Why didn't the library on Pak have any reference to the >ringworld being built? It did have the reference to the expedition >to Earth, which was much smaller. The Earth colony was failing; the protectors there knew they were dying; they were worried (well, as worried as protectors get) about their charges. It was possible that protectors would come with descendants and wipe out the resident breeders, but it was unlikely, as they were too busy staying alive back home: far more likely that childless protectors would research the problem and come out. Ringworld was a going enterprise, and reasonably successful -- but as fragile as a planet (c. f. Canyon, Home, today's Earth. If you can come all the way from the galactic core, you can get enough energy to drop a 20km wide asteroid on a planet, and settle a few centuries later.) Why call attention to themselves? ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.arpa (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: A.E. Van Vogt's 3rd Null-A Novel Date: 11 Aug 85 20:41:43 GMT I can't think of anything AEVV has written in recent years that he didn't blow. If anyone can enlighten me, please do so for I have given up on the author of the Null-A books and the first book I remember staying up all night to finish, The House That Stood Still. I got stuck after 76 pages of Children of Tomorrow and haven't been able to touch him since. AEVV certainly was formative for me in the middle '40s but I figured him as over the hill worse even than Doc Smith was near the end. Please tell me where I'm wrong. Master-reads are hard to find. Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ From: utcs!webber@topaz.arpa (R. D. Webber) Subject: Re: 85/55 surprises Date: 6 Aug 85 21:40:18 GMT >From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA >Incidentally, there was a now-forgotton Phillip Wylie novel about a >mid-1950's nuclear exchange between the US and the USSR -- anybody >remember the name? One novel by Wylie on the subject was Triumph!, but I suspect you're referring to the other, civil defense awareness novel by him, called, I believe, Tomorrow!. Bob Webber ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!ugzannin@topaz.arpa (Adrian Zannin) Subject: Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"??? Date: 12 Aug 85 16:30:24 GMT Just the other night I watched the movie "The Fantastic Voyage". I had seen it several years ago and I had also read the book back when I was in 6th grade, so I really didn't catch everything the first time through. Now, almost 10 years later, I finally got to see it again and found what may be a mistake on Isaac Asimov's part. Remember when the submarine ran into a problem and lost some air out of the ballast tanks? The solution was to push the sub's snorkel through the wall of an alveoli in the guy's lung and get some air when he inhaled. Well, wouldn't there be a problem with the size of the air molecules? I mean, when the sub was miniaturized, the air inside it was shrunken also. Now, wouldn't there be at least a bogus air pressure reading when they fill up with normal air that hasn't been miniaturized? For that matter, would the air molecules even be able to fit into the sub? Please reply via e-mail, as I don't read this newsgroup too often. Thanks... Adrian Zannin ..{bbncca,decvax,dual,rocksvax,watmath,sbcs}!sunybcs!ugzannin CSNET: ugzannin@Buffalo.CSNET ARPANET: ugzannin%Buffalo@csnet-relay.ARPA BITNET: ugzannin@sunybcs.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: 12 Aug 1985 11:45-PDT From: mab@aids-unix (Mike Brzustowicz) Subject: Re: Nicks and Rhiannon The song "Rhiannon" makes more than a few references to the myth of Rhiannon, although not to the most famous story of her. The ones that come to mind are of the birds of Rhiannon (skylarks), the episode where she escapes an odius arranged marriage (who will be her lover?), and the story where "the sky" swallows her (Taken by the sky). -Brusty ------------------------------ Subject: Antimatter girls. From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jeffrey Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1985 11:01 EDT Someone a while back mentioned what would the children of an anti-matter/matter marriage look like? To be perfectly truthfull, if an antimatter girl and a matter boy even touched (kissed, held hands) the explosion would liberate 1.22 * 10**28 watts of energy. That is enough energy to light 1,000,000 light bulbs for 3,868,594,600,000 years! That's a lot of fireworks for a first kiss!! (I considered average male and female masses for the boy and anti-girl) Now if only we could accumulate a few ounces of anti-matter, and control the reaction. Quite a power source! Of course it would make a formidible weapon too.. ------------------------------ From: ttrdc!levy@topaz.arpa (Daniel R. Levy) Subject: Re: Antimatter girls. Date: 12 Aug 85 06:20:42 GMT RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jeffrey Smith) writes: >if an antimatter girl and a matter boy even touched (kissed, held >hands) the explosion would liberate 1.22 * 10**28 watts of energy. You've slipped your units. Joules, not watts. dan levy an engihacker @ at&t computer systems division skokie, illinois Path: ..!ihnp4!ttrdc!levy or: ..!ihnp4!iheds!ttbcad!levy ------------------------------ From: utcs!webber@topaz.arpa (R. D. Webber) Subject: Re: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IX Date: 6 Aug 85 22:07:36 GMT dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes: >... it is interesting to note that virtually all of the science >fiction criticism that has been penned has been by authors >currently working in the field. It seems to me that I have read mention of quite a few academic critics in such places as Budrys's review columns in F&SF. He largely disparages them as having too little knowledge of the field, but they do, apparently, exist. >And due to the sociological factors of their group, science fiction >writers, even Delany and LeGuin, pull their punches and let people >off the proverbial hook. Would you care to back up this comment with some real, concrete examples, along with a description of the sociological factors involved in each particular case? The following: >I have never read anything more than mildly disparaging about >Asimov's work by a science fiction author, and I wonder how that >correlates with the fact that he edits one of the science fiction >magazines. doesn't count because Asimov does not edit the magazine which bears his name: Shawna McCarthy was the editor until recently; the editor is now Gardiner Dozois. >We cannot blame the authors who venture into this field - it's >understandable that they will concentrate on works that they feel >showcase the best of science fiction, and that they would avoid >soiling their own nest by attacking someone else's work, a someone >that they meet two or three times a year, possibly. Ah, that explains why Charles Platt is so popular. >There's a strong current of the old "He who can, does, he who >cannot, criticizes" mentality in science fiction. For being such an >intellectual genre compared to most, it's an interestingly >anti-intellectual critical milieu. Very often the first response to >adverse criticism is "Let's see you do better". While you're digging up some examples to substantiate this, keep track of the names of the authors involved, and see if a pattern emerges. >There is tension and not a small amount of acrimony between writers >and critics, and it will always be there and should always be >there. Why? >Authors often forget that it's better to be terribly excoriated in >print than simply ignored, that anything is preferable to being >overlooked. Just as critics often forget that they have as much >responsiblity to their craft as authors do to theirs, perhaps more. Pardon me, but, "Sez you!" This is simple speculation on your part. >This isn't just one man's opinion. Many important people in the >field have stated as much, in some cases much more strongly. Who? How about some examples, rather than assertion and hand-waving? Frankly, your essay could have done with a lot of editorial criticism. Your writing style is so "lumpy" that I find myself ready to argue even with the points I agree with. Bob Webber ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Aug 85 07:13:21 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: Richard Brautigan's demise I'm afraid it is so. According to some (quite small) newspaper reports a few months back, Richard Brautigan committed suicide in a small town in California (the one that's famous for tearing up its road signs; I can't think of the name.) marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.arpa (john) Subject: Re: local vs. imported meat for aliens Date: 10 Aug 85 18:11:00 GMT >Raising cattle (bovine, human, rabbit, or otherwise) not only takes >a lot of space - but you you also have to feed them - and the whole >point was that the aliens were short of food. The most useful food animal eats things that you cannot (Grass,Plankton etc) and produces meat that you can eat. The aliens might have a world full of high protein yeasts that they cannot eat and need humans to process it. "To Serve Man...... John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Aug 85 0946-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #323 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 15 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 323 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Delany & Harrison & Heinlein & Niven & Del Rey Books, Films - Quatermass and the Pit (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) & Ewoks & Black Holes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: chanu's venture Date: 12 Aug 85 15:07:04 GMT > Oh well the keyboard got me again. That's Chanur's Venture. > > But what was the first book? What is the third? Is the third book > out in paperback yet? Pride of Chanur was the first. Chanur's Revenge, or The Kif Strike Back, is the third. Great read. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.arpa (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Samuel Delany Date: 12 Aug 85 12:05:27 GMT Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: >RE Jim Hofmann's comments on Dahlgren: I will admit that Delany >takes on topics that most everyone else shies away from (most >everyone - not everyone, and the others do it better!) but I don't >really want to read about these topics, and I particularly don't >want to read trashy writing on these topics. Similarly, though >Delany "divorces himself from standard literary style", there are >others who do it better. Most of the Delany books I've read, though shorter than _Dhalgren_, are worse written and considerably less interesting. (I thought Dhalgren stylistically interesting but intolerably repetitious.) In fact, I sold _Nova_, _Triton_, and _Dhalgren_ so long ago that it took this discussion to remind me the author of _Babel-17_ wrote them. _Babel-17_ is his one good book, as far as I know. It may be out of print; I've never seen a new copy. It draws extensively on his knowledge of linguistics (that's his field), has plenty of action, and tells a good love story about intelligent people. Nor does it divorce itself from "standard literary style!" It even has a plot! Give it a shot before you give up on him. Judith Abrahms ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!herbie@topaz.arpa (Herb Chong - DCS) Subject: Re: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry Subject: Harrison Date: 11 Aug 85 18:12:53 GMT psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes: >One such is James "Slippery Jim" diDriz, who in a stainless steel >world can still find holes in the wall to hide in. it's diGriz. harrison was very fond of bad puns in the six (at least) novels comprising the stainless steel rat series. Herb Chong... ------------------------------ From: que!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris DeVoney) Subject: Heilein's next book Date: 10 Aug 85 19:57:31 GMT Putnam will release in November, 1985 Robert Heinlein's _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_. The ad in "Publisher's Weekly" states: "The new novel from the bestselling author of _Stranger in a Strange Land_, _Friday_, and _Job!_ Heinlein at his best, here's an entertaining, provocative and hilarious look into the worlds of the future, where history has gone mad and a few men and women attempt to control fate and avert disaster across time and space." I think the book is a continuation of "Number of the Beast," which would be interesting as they don't mention that book in the hype. ISBN 0-399-13103-5 in hardback. A limited deluxe boxed edition of 350 numbered and autographiced copies are ISBN 0-399-13116-7. I'll be waiting for the paperback (no word, but expect it late next year.) I haven't been particularily pleased with his last few works. Chris DeVoney Que Corporation Indianapolis, IN voice: 317/842-7162 uucp: ihnp4!inuxc!que!chris ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@topaz.arpa (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors Date: 12 Aug 85 11:04:14 GMT >From: Jim Hester >I didn't go back and check this, but it was my understanding that >Tree-of-Life virus could not survive (or, at least, was not >effective) without Tree-of-Life root. That's why the protectors >died out in the original Earth expedition: the root died, and the >virus with it. The protectors on Home would almost certainly take >all the root with them, since they did not want to raise more >protectors after them. Virus in the air would not be a danger. But there WAS no root on Home: Brennan found a way of making the virus grow in a yam, on Kobold, but he ALSO put one in his body so that it would spread throughout the atmostphere, regardless of where it was... This would mean that Home would probably have the virus there for some time- of course it would need a place to live, and if they all left Home it might just die out naturally, though it might be able to live on anything. (That'd make an interesting story.... Come back to re-colonise Home, everyone turns into protectors....) Carl Greenberg ...ucbvax!dual!proper!carl ------------------------------ From: que!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris DeVoney) Subject: Flame on Del Rey's hardback books Date: 10 Aug 85 20:07:16 GMT I have notices that the hardback books from Del Rey (yes, that Lester Del Rey's company) have uneven page edges. I am offended that they charge $16-$19 dollars for a hardbound book and don't spend the ten cents to evenly trim and bind the pages. Is it just my local bookstores getting bad copies? I asked Jerry Pournelle if he's noticed this on his books. He was unaware (his copies come direct from the publisher and *I know* they won't send nonprime copies). If this is the case for Del Rey books, let's send a collective flame to Del Rey and ask to sell nonprime copies at a nonprime price and spent the money to have good looking books (with good content) at a good price. Chris DeVoney Que Corporation Indianapolis, IN voice: 317/842-7162 uucp: ihnp4!inuxc!que!chris ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: QUATERMASS AND THE PIT (Slight spoiler) Date: 19 Aug 85 06:32:28 GMT Warning: Even a slight spoiler for a really great film is a disaster. >Sequel? Wait a minute, Mark, didn't Quatermass ride the crane into >the "Electric Force" (doo dah doo dah) and die in "5 Mil..."????? No, that was Matthew Roney (James Donald) who gave his life for London. He was the scientist who was called to the site first. He is thin and has a craggy, clean-shaven face. Bernard Quatermass (Andrew Kier), is heavier set and has a moustache and beard. In the climax Quatermass is going around the construction site to save Barbara Judd (Barbara Shelley) and Roney climbs the crane and rides it into the energy column. QUATERMASS CONCLUSION (based on reading the novel) involves a much older Quatermass in a London that is falling apart. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Corrections on "Quatermass and the Pit" Date: 19 Aug 85 06:47:35 GMT >'Twas Anthony Quayle, not Peter Cushing, in the film. Wassa matta? Nobody got Maltin's TV Movies out there. It was Andrew Kier. He played in a number of Hammer Films movies including DRACULA PRINCE OF DARKNESS and THE VIKING QUEEN. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Critics and SF Date: 11 Aug 85 21:57:46 GMT moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >It seems to me that critics are only happy when either decrying the >lousy taste of the public by automatically condemning any work >which sells well, or lauding to the skies a work which most people >(me) find totally unapproachable. I gave up on the New York Times >Book Review column for precisely this reason. I grant you that >tastes differ, but that doesn't mean that the public (me again) is >incapable of finding out *BY THEMSELVES* whether "this work is any >good". Here we go again. I read both the New York Times Book Review and the New York Review of books regularly, and I fail to see the attitudes you people are constantly bemoaning appearing regularly in these mags. Now I do sometimes see reviews I disagree with, but I like to think I'm mature enough to appreciate alternative points of view. Including the 'intellectual' approach to literature some of your compatriots in this newsgroup seem to loathe. Fact: Gerald Jonas writes a column in the NYTBR every other week. He hardly trashes every SF book he reviews. Another fact: I believe reviews of SF works have sometimes appeared in both the NYTBR and the NYRB over the past few years, including reviews of Stanislaw Lem's works. These reviews did not 'trash' SF out of hand. One more fact: although reviews of esoterica do appear in both these magazines, both regularly publish reviews of popular fiction and bestsellers. I challenge you to prove to the readers of this group that the reviewers in these mags automatically trash any work of literature that's not written for 'eggheads' by 'eggheads.' Better still, I challenge the readers of this group to check it out for themselves. Your comment suggests that some reviewer said something nasty about one of your particular favorites and you chose not to read the NYTBR any more as a consequence. >I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you whether >it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read". To me this >indicates that the two concepts are orthogonal, and have nothing to >do with each other. Thank you, I will ignore both *ART* and >critics who talk about *ART* because I have found this bias to be >pretentious, boring, unapproachable, and generally gives me no >pleasure. What Mr. Robinson's comment indicates is that he has peculiar personal definitions of 'critic' and 'reviewer.' It says nothing about the way I approach the SF genre or about the way I *should* approach the SF genre. It should be abundantly clear by now that there's no consensus among the readers of this newsgroup on what good SF is or on the 'proper' way to read SF. You're welcome to your opinions, but don't assume you've found some great 'truth' or that anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't belong in this newsgroup (there have been replies to some of my postings, for example, that questioned my 'right' to post in this newsgroup because of my 'incorrect thinking'). There's been a fierce hostility toward intellectuals in American culture for a long while; I doubt many other languages can rival American's variety of pejorative slang for intellectuals (although I suspect the Chinese language acquired quite a few back around the cultural revolution :-). I see some of the hostility toward 'critics' in this newsgroup arising from the perception of SF as a popular genre, and a certain resentment that the 'eggheads' are seen as either (1) choosing to ignore SF or (2) choosing to say bad things about SF as a matter of course. My feeling is that this wrongheaded hostility is neither productive nor mature. It stereotypes people and makes incorrect assumptions about their actions and motivations (where ELSE have we seen this kind of thinking? Can you say 'bigotry'?) and assumes out of hand that readers and writers of SF have nothing to learn from what's going on in the mainstream literary community. This attitude is a sure road to sterility and intellectual bankruptcy in a genre that's given me a great deal of reading pleasure over the last 30 years or so. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Uncritical Critics Date: 13 Aug 85 00:14:52 GMT webber@utcs.UUCP (R. D. Webber) writes: >dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes: >>... it is interesting to note that virtually all of the science >>fiction criticism that has been penned has been by authors >>currently working in the field. > It seems to me that I have read mention of quite a few >academic critics in such places as Budrys's review columns in F&SF. >He largely disparages them as having too little knowledge of the >field, but they do, apparently, exist. I irregularly subscribe to what is now called _Fantasy Review_, which attempts to review ALL published fantasy (in which they include SF and some horror). Their reviewers are not name authors. I would also point out that it is the practice of the _Wash. Post Book Review_ to use authors to review similar books, so this practice is hardly a problem exclusively of SF. >>And due to the sociological factors of their group, science >>fiction writers, even Delany and LeGuin, pull their punches and >>let people off the proverbial hook. I happen to own _Language of the Night_ by LeGuin, and I think this comment is totally off-base. First, we have "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie", in which she takes apart (as it happens) K. Kurtz (who seems to have learned from the article). Second, I really do not think that everyone has to criticize like Harlan Ellison. It is possible to criticize without going for the jugular, and with some humility. Anyone who reads _F&SF_ should be able to see that Budrys's reviews are no less thoughtful than Ellison's even though they are certainly gentler. >>There's a strong current of the old "He who can, does, he who >>cannot, criticizes" mentality in science fiction. For being such >>an intellectual genre compared to most, it's an interestingly >>anti-intellectual critical milieu. Very often the first response >>to adverse criticism is "Let's see you do better". With respect to the literary establishment, I think this criticism on the part of the SF (and the fantasy) community may in fact be justified. The social milieu of SF is so radically different from that of "literary" fiction that there aren't many people familiar with the critical apparatus who also are familiar with the aims and ideas of SF or fantasy; most of these people, it would appear, are authors within the fields. I don't see this to be a problem; with the passage of time, these people will become more numerous. What does bother me somewhat is this fannish notion that all enjoyable books have literary merit on all levels. This tends to produce criticism on the level of trivia exchange. (Which is not to say that this characterizes ALL fannish criticism!) Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe ------------------------------ Date: 13 Aug 85 00:17 EDT (Tue) From: _Bob To: Subject: "cute" Ewoks >From: > Stormtroopers had been a problem for the Ewoks for some time, and > the Ewoks had already been fighting back. One thing that bothered me about the Ewok victory: Guerrillas @i(never) finally defeat regulars without the assistance of an allied regular force. High-tech stormtroopers defeated by low-tech guerrillas sounds like a romanticized view of the Viet Cong (sans the NVA) to me. Perhaps that is why the cutness of Ewoks evokes such passionate reaction one way or the other. _B ------------------------------ From: iitcs!draughn@topaz.arpa (Mark Draughn) Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise Date: 6 Aug 85 17:20:38 GMT As I understand it, black holes can be made of matter or anti-matter, or whatever, but it doesn't matter. From outside of the black hole all we can detect is its mass, its charge, and its spin. We can't tell whether the stuff inside originally went in as matter, antimatter, energy, or whatever. Antimatter black holes might exist, but we couldn't know if they were. Mark T. Draughn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Aug 85 1010-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #324 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 15 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 324 Today's Topics: Books - Bradshaw & Brust & Clarke & Zelazny & Stories About Non-carbon Based Life, Films - Spielberg, Music - Rhiannon, Television - Doll Story & The NEW Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & The Problems with SF & Why We Must Leave Earth & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 18:26 EDT Subject: Looking for books by.... From: ("Joe Herman @ Merryland ") Gillian Bradshaw. She wrote the "Hawk of May" trilogy. This is one of the best Arthurian tales I've ever read. Does any know if she's written anything else? Hoping, Dzoey BITNET: HERMAN@UMDB ARPA: HERMAN%UMDB.BITNET@UMD2 ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) Subject: Re: To Reign in Hell & Steve Brust Date: 12 Aug 85 22:54:14 GMT > Admittedly fantasy is my least favorite form of fiction ... Well, then maybe you shouldn't review it. > ...but this book borderlined on what Roger Ebert likes to call > "The Idiot Plot". Actually, Joanna Russ attributed this coining to Damon Knight long before most of us ever heard of Ebert; maybe Ebert reads Knight, or maybe it is rightfully attributed it to someone else. And anyway, I disagree: I think most of the characters acted in as intelligently as they could. Perhaps they were naive--but then how often had they ever experienced deceit? I felt exuberant when I'd finished the book on a plane flight; it was a real page-turner, and most of the time when I fly I'd rather sleep than read. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 09:13 PDT From: piersol.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Gravity drives This reminds me of Arthur C. Clarke's 'Asymptotic Drive' from "Imperial Earth", which used a very small black hole as the basis of the drive system. As particles approach the event horizon, they emit high energy photons, exciting the gas around them. Since only a relatively few atoms were needed to excite a much larger volume of gas, the drive attained extremely high efficiency. The only problem was that the black hole needed to be replaced once it had attained sufficient mass to begin slowing the ship's accelleration. Clarke never went into how the microscopic black holes were created, or more interestingly, disposed of in a safe manner. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 19:53:16 CDT From: moorel@EGLIN-VAX Subject: review of Trumps of Doom In answer to Dan L. regarding a review of _Trumps of Doom_ by Roger Zelazny: first off, he might enjoy knowing that the book was recently the main selection of the SF Book Club, and now an alternate. If he isn't a member, find a friend who is. The book doesn't concern the main characters from the six novel Amber series directly, but concerns Corwin's son, Merlin, who grew up in the Courts of Chaos. The major portion of the book deals with Merlin's adventures on Earth as a Computer Programmer (and then some), and the latter half with his return to Amber. It is a fast reading, enjoyable book, but I don't recommend it to either those who object to books that are obviously waiting for a sequel or for those who haven't read most or all of the first six books. It does very little refreshing of the already developed milieu. Lynne Moore (Moorel@Eglin-VAX.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 07:29 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Non carbon based stories... This idea of different forms of life than our "normal" carbon based selves, and all those millions of critters living on our planet, has some interesting stories associated with it. There is the Well of Souls series by Jack Chalker that has some interactions with non-carbon life forms, although the majority of characters are carbon based, for obvious reasons. There was a story (series?) by Frederick Pohl and Jack Williamson about intelligent stars. It was called The Starchild Trilogy, but in one volume. Can you imagine conversing with Sol? What would (s)he think of us and what we have done? Would it have noticed us? Read the book to see what they thought about the whole idea. Harlan Ellison wrote some short stories that dealt with different lifeforms. The Ptill Poweb Division (misspelled) springs to mind first. I believe it was in the anthology The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World. Then, of course, there was The Gods Themselves, although they may have been carbon based. It's not clear in my mind (or my mind isn't clear). They were quite different from us at any rate (even 19.5% :-). Enough from me, feel free to add your own... Jon Pugh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 13:44:33 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Spielberg >1) All that Steven Spielberg touches turns to gold. In evidence >against this, I would like to mention "~The Sugarland Express" >(something like that), which was one of SS's earlier films and went >over like a lead balloon. ... An interesting thing: after this >flopped, it took SS a long time to get anyone to even think about >hiring him. "The Sugarland Express" (1974) was a major critical success and made a modest amount of money. (It also cost a modest amount of money.) In 1974-1975, Spielberg made "Jaws", his first big hit. "Jaws" was a difficult, big budget production one wouldn't assign to a questionable director. Obviously, "The Sugarland Express" did Spielberg no harm in Hollywood. >2) SS has never had a major female character. Although Princess >Leia is not exactly Kate Hepburn, she isn't all sweetness and light >either. ... However, in "Sugarland" SS had Goldie Hawn playing >the main character, who happened to have a very strong personality. >This also may have had something to do with the film's short life. Spielberg had nothing to do with any of the "Star Wars" movies, so he deserves neither credit nor blame for Princess Leia. In my original note, I mentioned Goldie Hawn's role in "The Sugarland Express". I do not think that the fact that the major character was a strong woman (if not the world's brightest) had anything to do with the film's failure, which was only a relative failure, anyway. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: SORCEROR@LL.ARPA Subject: SF in Music - "Rhiannon" Date: 13 Aug 85 22:31:26 GMT > From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >> From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey) >> And Fleetwood Mac's (Stevie Nicks's) song "Rhiannon" is supposed >> to be about a Welsh (Welch?) witch. Anybody know if Stevie's >> still around? > While it's true that the name Rhiannon is a reference from Welsh > myth, the lyrics from "Rhiannon" don't seem to me to be about > such. While this song does not use the word witch or drop names from Welsh myth, the lyrics do evoke a lot of (neo)Pagan symbolism. The name "Rhiannon" suggests "Rhea", the great Earth/Mother goddess in Greek myth. She is "taken by the wind/sky" which was a symbol of the great male principle in the same culture. Rhiannon's connection with certain trappings of nature is presented as a much firmer bond than her wordly romantic involvements. The song says to me that no lover should expect to dominate the Goddess which is manifest in any woman, nor to have an exclusive relationship with her, or even to comprehend her fully, because the attraction of Goddess and woman derives in part from her separateness and spontaneity. So, with all these (neo)Pagan allusions, I feel that it is quite legitimate to associate this song with a witch. Blessed Be, Karl Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!allen@topaz.arpa (John Allen) Subject: Re: Re: Scary things Date: 12 Aug 85 21:37:47 GMT From: Glen Daniels > From uwmacc!demillo@topaz.arpa (Rob DeMillo) >>The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the >>hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved a >>grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl. I can barely >>remember the story, but it dealt with the parents trying to get >>rid of the doll, and it would show up in strange places after the >>attempt. >> >>Anyone remember a little more about it? > I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but there was a > TZ episode about a girl who had a doll that her father hated, and > it then proceeded to make threats to him, etc... He attempted to > destroy it (freaking out his wife + kid by doing so), but couldn't > do it (the buzzsaw he used just sent up sparks on contact with it, > when he threw it in the trash it came back, etc...). It then said, > in a very sweet, dolly voice, "I'm going to kill you." > > It did. (via him tripping on it and falling down the stairs...) You are both right. There was a TZ episode that is fairly accurately described above, but there was also a NG episode that was similar in many ways, but also different in some ways. ********** SPOILER WARNING ********** The NG episode was about this British officer who had been in command of a troop in India. I think that he did something which angered a local Indian mystic who sent the doll to the officer's granddaugter (I believe). The Indian had used some sort of black magic to animate the doll, which he sent with the intention of having it kill the officer. Eventually it succeeds in doing so. The last scene of the episode is of the Indian's apartment (I think in London. Possibly a hotel room.) The Indian receives a package in the mail which turns out to be a doll (made to the resemble the British officer), which smiles malevolently at the Indian. ********** END SPOILER ********** Part of the above I deduced after watching the episode, but I can't remember the episode well enough to remember what is deduction and what is actually said. I liked this better than the TZ episode, because I thought that it explained how and why the doll was out to kill the person in question. John Allen Ohio State University UUCP: cbosgd!osu-eddie!allen) (CSNet: allen@ohio-state) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 17:46:09 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: The Door Opens Again The NEW! Twilight Zone Series (**NOT A SPOILER**) As some of you may know, work has been underway for a new Twilight zone series. The series will start late September, Friday nights I believe. All-new episodes are being produced. Only a few (~two) of the original TZ episodes are likely to be re-done. I had a sneak peak at two of the new episodes earlier this month. (Don't bother asking how.) (There is a special TZ convention coming up SOON in some place like Denver where some of the new episodes will be shown, though.) The good news is [in my opinion/so far as I'm concerned] the news is all good news: o no attempt to recapture TZ the way it was. The philosophy was: Do it the way Rod Serling might be doing it today. o new episodes as a rule o time to fit material. The overall show is an hour, I guess. Episodes are short/long as appropriate. Under 15-20 minutes there's probably no interruptions. o Done by folks including many who know what they're doing, sf-wise, tv-wise, and quality-wise, and care about it. o Variety of classic, obscure and original scripts/stories, subject to increasing difficulty in finding material not already optioned. I'm looking forward to it all, based on what I've seen so far. "For 20 years, the [door to the Twilight Zone] has been closed. On September (whatever), it will open again." Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 21:03:50 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Magic and Science "A Wink In the Eye of the Wolf" by Alexander Jablokov in the Fall 1985 issue of "Far Frontiers" is one of the best I have ever read. A explorer logically explains to magicians why their magic cannot possibly work. As a result, it stops working. The conclusion was quite surprising. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) Subject: re: THE PROBLEMS WITH SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART IX Date: 13 Aug 85 16:47:56 GMT > From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) > With a few notable exceptions, critical endeavors in the field of > science fiction have been nonexistent. We take it you *missed* Joanna Russ's fine reviews in F&SF in the late 70's. Too bad. I believe they still stock back issues at $3 per copy, and might have some of those. It's highly suggested that you purchase these: she's sharp and will likely burst your pretty, pompous bubbles. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Aug 85 14:12:51 PDT From: Dave Suess Subject: The Extraterrestrial Imperative The recent discussion on Why We Must Leave Earth seems to have omitted perhaps the most compelling reason. Dr. Krafft Ehricke (of V2 fame, as well as the Shuttle pre-cursor, Dyna-Soar) has described what he calls "the Extraterrestrial Imperative". The concept involves all sorts of dandy notions (biosphere, 2nd Law of Thermo, technosphere, the "informational metabolism" toward which we are evolving, and many more), but the basic thrust I got when I heard him speak where I work is: We gotta go, 'cause the sun's going out in five billion years. Maybe we can delay by burning the gas giants near us, but without a large supply of energy to tap, where will Homo Whatever be? Ehricke compares our solar system to a womb, furthermore, and says that an embryo cannot stay too long in the womb (or womb and embryo both wither and die). Interesting stuff-- maybe someone has seen some of Ehricke's thoughts in print somewhere? Last I heard, he was with Space Global Company, presumably pursuing neat stuff. The "androsphere" has to leave after the lights go out on Sol, and Ehricke's already planning the exodus... Dave Suess (guess I'll continue to rent...) zeus@aerospace ------------------------------ From: lsuc!msb@topaz.arpa (Mark Brader) Subject: Re: The Great Silence Date: 10 Aug 85 21:04:06 GMT I've cut down the included part as much as possible, but I thought the complete list was worth presenting again. Josh Susser writes: > ... Why haven't any aliens contacted Earth? > ... some of [David] Brin's hypotheses ... > > 1) We are truly alone. > 2) Sentient live is just appearing in the galaxy ... > 3) There is a galactic interdict ... > 4) We are fundamentally different from other sentients ... > 5) Interstellar travel and communication are impossible. > 6) Berserkers or other hostile galactics are killing off our > frindly neighbors. > 7) Civilizations with the agressive tendencies necessary to > drive one to interstellar expansion kill themselves off ... > and the surviving galactics are mellow enough to expand > slowly, so they just haven't found us yet. > 8) Most habitable worlds are water worlds, so most other > galactic sentients would be aquatic and incapable of > building spacecraft. I'm surprised not to have seen any followups to this item. Here's an obvious next one: 9) Interstellar travel is impractical, and we don't know how to listen to the communications method used by anyone else. For instance, maybe they modulate their star's neutrino flow. Mark Brader ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 15 Aug 85 1033-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #325 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 15 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 325 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Niven (4 msgs) & Bar Stories, Comics - Grimjack, Films - Real Genius & Andromeda Strain, Miscellaneous - Technology vs Magic & Critics & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Music in SF (& apologies to all) Date: 12 Aug 85 14:47:35 GMT >>From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MULTICS.ARPA >>May St. Patrick forgive you for the mortal insult to Erin. I will >>struggle to do the same. I concede that McCaffrey may be a 'low >>taste' writer, but she can at least imbue her characters with some >>personality--something at which Cherryh fails utterly. Pyanfar Chanur has no personality? Tully has no personality? I'd watch out for 6' tall Michael Whelan cats if I were you... And McCaffrey isn't an irish name, is it? Sounds more scottish. I know she lives in Ireland but I thought that was because of the tax breaks for creative artists. And gee, on the local bulletin boards we just had a discussion about how bad her male characters are. They all talk like a '50s western. I like her stuff, but to compare Cherryh unfavorably with her? Ick. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Re: Niven's Protectors Date: 13 Aug 85 15:41:17 GMT > The protectors on Home would almost certainly take all the root > with them, since they did not want to raise more protectors after > them. Virus in the air would not be a danger. Jack Brennan devised a form of tree-of-life virus that could survive indefinitely in the athmosphere, as well as one that could survive and reproduce in a protector's body. Remember how Truesdale was prevented from entering certain sections of Kobold even before he was old enough to trigger the tree-of-life hunger reaction. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Protectors and the Ringworld Date: 13 Aug 85 15:44:00 GMT > space. If they had evidence of other Pak civilizations in the > area, there probably would have been some mention of the fact. Probably not. Remember the puppeteers never mentioned the Trinocs until Louis Wu discovered them. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ Subject: Fate of the Protectors of Home From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1985 09:05 EDT >> Bigger question, though. This one has always bothered me about >>Niven's universe. What the heck happens to Home after the >>Protectors left to beat off the Pak ? Obviously, our guys win, >>because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown. But what >>happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating >>in the atmosphere ? It bugs me. >My guess would be that the Home Protectors continue to keep the >human race as a whole as its charge, looking out for us and keeping >us out of trouble. The Home colony was given as a failure in the >timeline in "Tales of Known Space", and "Protector" has, at least >for me, the impression of being a report that was never seen by >most of humanity - the Protectors probably just kept Home for >themselves as a base. Keep in mind that Protectors live a LONG >time, O(10Kyears), so they need not even supplement their numbers >very often. Maybe the Puppeteer "eugenics" program for Kzinti and >humans is really the result of the Protectors manipulating the >Puppeteers... It protects humanity from its most dangerous >adversary to date, and makes more sense than the Puppeteers just >doing it because "they like humans" (as stated in "Ringworld >Engineers"). Vince's speculation is well thought out, but I believe another scenerio to be equally likely. Phsssthpok (sp?) was only able to stave off death by tranferring his protective instincts to the search for the 'lost' colony-- Earth. Otherwise, with no clan to protect, he would die. The Protectors of Home, I believe, must have overcome tremendous instinctive behavior patterns in order to be able to work together to fight off Phssthpok's followers. I doubt that co-operative effort could have been duplicated by guiding the human race as benevolent masters. When provoked the Pak were furious and effective fighters. Had they still been around in Louis Wu's time and became aware of the Kzinti and the Puppeteer's, the Protectors of Home would have wiped those races out as they would pose potential threat to the human species. More likely the remnants of Home's Protector population, devastated by their battle with the Pak, returned to Home. There they either killed each other, after staking out their own territory, or died of despair, since they didn't have any 'clan' to protect. ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors Date: 12 Aug 85 14:30:43 GMT > to beat off the Pak ? Obviously, our guys win, because even by > Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown. Not so. See "the ringworld engineers". Wu had seen Phsstpok's corpse. (pronounce that with a silent ph and t. What other superintelligent logical alien does that remind you of?) > But what happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus > floating in the atmosphere ? It bugs me. It's listed as uninhabitable (see the map in "Known Space"), and nobody is crazy enough to visit it. Or if they are they become protectors, read Brennan's journal, and go charging off to the Galactic Core. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) Subject: re: SF Bar Tales Date: 13 Aug 85 17:20:28 GMT Good heavens! We can't forget Canterbury Tales. It's an ancient technique and it still can excite and entertain us. A campfire, an inn, a bar, some place where strangers meet and are on equal footing. And even when tales aren't exchanged, *something* happens at these gatherings. What adds the charm to "The Trouble with Tribbles" but this very feature, how else could we have that brawl in the bar (where else would UFP'ers be drinking next to Klingons?). In _Dragon_Waiting_ when all arrive at the Swiss inn, my pulse elevated because I knew this was going to be a place of action. The Prancing Pony in _The_Fellowship_of_the_Ring_, where spies and friends are found, where the party of hobbits meets the tall mysterious stranger and Frodo makes that scene by disappearing after dancing off the table. A recent mainstream example of tales told in a bar or club is P G Wodehouse-- I remember at least one volume of short stories where this was the vehicle. I can also remember a Sayer's Lord Peter Wimsy story that starts out with a stranger relating his strange history in a bar. Is there any collection of Gavagan's Bar stuff in print these days? I've been looking, off and on, with not much success. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #297 (bars) Date: 12 Aug 85 14:55:01 GMT > Anybody who likes Moorcock, the Theives World stuff, Old Humphrey > Bogart movies, O. Henry stories, or anything else in the world, > should check out a comic book called GRIMJACK. It is, in my > humble opinion, the best book on the market at the moment. > Grimjack is a mercenary, detective, Now that American Flagg is dying, I'd have to agree with you. > bodyguard, assassin, thief, fighter, thug, bar owner (and all > around nice guy) who lives in The Pit in the city of Cynosure. > Cynosure is approximately equal to Tanelorn-- the point at which > all the multiverses come together, and The Pit is roughly > equivalent to Downwind in Except that where Tanelorn is a place to go to, Cynosure is a place to escape from. I picked it up originally for the Munden's Bar stories at the end. For you Bar Story fans, these are a must-read. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ To: reiher@UCLA-LOCUS.ARPA Subject: thoughts on sexist spielberg Date: 14 Aug 85 01:36:05 EDT (Wed) From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA If Spielberg IS sexist, what's he going to do to ``The Color Purple''? I agree that there have been a paucity of women who seem to be put on the screen for anything other than fueling male fantasies. [Well, there ARE a lot of men who seem to have no purpose on the screen but to fuel female fantasies. The point is that there are also a lot of men on the screen who are being portrayed in a movie because what they do is interesting, there don't seem to be many women of which this is true.] An exception is Jordan, in ``Real Genius'', (wish I never had to sleep...). She was really a bit of a freak for one to want to emulate her (though I STILL wish I never had to sleep...). On the other hand, everyone in the film is a freak, Jordan not much more so than Chris Knight, and much less so than Professor Hathaway or Laszlo. [REAL GENIUS SLIGHT SPOILERS COMING UP: ] On the plus side, the transmitter they put into Kent's head is her idea (she also installs it, which implies she probably built it). She's seen doing lots of ``unladylike'' things (sanding her floor, building sleds). The romance between her and Mitch is not over-stressed (i.e, it's not made into her raison d'etre, it's just a facet of her personality). It's clear she's part of the goings on because she's vital to them, not because she's somebody's girl-friend (i.e., she's a person, not a sex-object). If I were a young woman in the audience, I could see using Jordan as my surrogate in the film without feeling degraded or embarrassed by what she does. If I were a young girl, I might want to grow up to be like here in some sense. On the minus side, she's 19, and ends up with a 15-year-old boy (well, he's 16 by the end of the movie). It would be nicer if she ended up with someone who was her equal (a romance between her and Chris might be more appropriate). Probably the most damning thing to say about the character in the film is that she implies: ``Hey girls, be smart and you'll end up as a lonely freak like Jordan.'' On the other hand, the same message is broadcast to boys (Sherry the ``head-hunter'' notwithstanding, Sherry is comic because she's so incongruous, her behavior seems slightly perverse and odd, to be PC (Politically Correct), her behavior should seem normal, of course...:-)), so at least they're even-handed in that respect. There's another female character worth mentioning in this film: Susan (``A girl's got to have her standards'') the Chief Baby-killer's daughter, who seems to be the only person able to match verbal wits with Chris. I'm not sure I'd call her much of a role-model, however. Growing young women don't even have Joanie Caucus around in Doonesbury to inspire them anymore. (Have you noticed how many women law students there are nowadays? I really wonder if its just coincidence.) It's not fair. ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.arpa (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Andromeda Strain question Date: 13 Aug 85 09:41:58 GMT I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began to wonder about this recently. As the scientists who are to investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected, weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY clean when they get to the lowest level. What for? They never interact with anything important except through waldos and other interfaces built to eliminate contact, so what's the difference? ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Magic as technology Date: 12 Aug 85 14:25:35 GMT > Robert Heinlen used the idea in at least one place in "The Number > of The Beast" A better example is Heinlein's classic "Magic Inc.", or "Operation Chaos" by Poul Anderson. > The theme figures quite strongly in Marion Zimmer Bradley's > excellent interpretation of the Arthurian legends, "The Mists of > Avalon". I believe she I didn't notice any magical technology in "The Mists of Avalon". One important aspect of technology is that anyone can use it, without training. Not create it, of course, but use it. It also tends to be common and unremarkable to the people using it. The magic in Mists is much more like traditional magic. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: pur-phy!dub@topaz.arpa (Dwight) Subject: New York Times reviews and D. Tucker Date: 11 Aug 85 22:06:59 GMT > From: dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) > And I've never read a science fiction book review which remotely > approached the caliber of the New York Times Book Review, with > the exception of Delany's review of Thomas Disch's "Angouleme", a > semiotic study more than a review, and Damon Knight on Blish's > "Common Time". I have never read a book review from the New York Times, but judging by the context of your sentence I would quess that it is a very comprehensive review. When I read a book review I don't always want a review that is "in-depth". There's a good chance that somewhere in such a review too much of the plot would be given away. I suppose it all depends on why a person reads certain books. With some books I get a great deal of pleasure just reading all of the turns of the plot. When I read the Thomas Covenent series I felt this way. I found Donaldson's writing style fairly hard going (I worn out my dictionary!), but I couldn't wait to see what would happen to Covenent on the next page. For other books it doesn't matter if I know even the exact plot! I get my pleasure out of reading a well written yarn. This is the way that I read Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy (which I've read three times. (no, that is not a boast. I know people who have read it dozens of times.)) A "New York Times"-like review might well have spoiled a great deal of the Convenent series, but not the LotR series. * So, Davis, your a little right and a little wrong (in my opinion), but that's the way most opinions are [even my own :-) ]. Dwight Bartholomew UUCP:{decvax,seismo,ihnp4,inuxc,sequent,uiucdcs}!pur-ee!pur-phy!dub {decwrl,hplabs,icase,psuvax1,siemens,ucbvax}|purdue!pur-phy!dub * - recursion alert! ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Re: The Great Silence Date: 13 Aug 85 15:38:30 GMT You're assuming there's only a few intelligent races in the galaxy. Besides: why would a race with a low exploratory/reproductive/etc. drive acquire interstellar travel? And so what if they can survive for 1000 years on a single solar system: that still leaves time for 3,000 iterations of the explore/colonise/fill a solar system/explore cycle if they're only 1% ahead of us. And do they have to fill the solar system before they want to go for the next one? Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Aug 85 1003-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #326 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 16 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 326 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & King & MacAvoy & Niven & Van Vogt, Films - Spielberg, Miscellaneous - Propaganda & Paying Guests at Cons & The Problems with SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Aug 85 17:43:08 EDT From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: Bring on the Aliens There's a short story by Arthur Clarke (don't remember what it's called, but I think it's in SENTINEL) which suggests that the reason that we haven't been contacted yet is that we evolved so durn fast! ****** SPOILER SPOILER ****** It is told from the aliens' point of view. It seems that a research team of a multi-species civilization was observing a star which showed signs of being about to nova, when they detected radio signals.They were quite shocked, because an expedition had been there a scant hundred million years before, and it was unprecedented that sentience could develop in such a short time. The star was going to go blooie real soon, so they sent out a rescue team to save as many of the humans as possible. The aliens found the planet deserted. The cities had been left intact, with all sorts of broadcasting equipment set up to observe the nova firsthand. The aliens looked in the direction that the signals were being sent, and saw many ships receeding at *sub-light* velocities with *reaction* thrusters! The rescue team set out in the direction of this spunky little species, and one said to another "What if they don't like our little empire? I mean, we only outnumber them by a few billion to one." The other laughed, but (classic line) "twenty years later, it didn't seem all that funny." GREAT story! --Jamie jwz@cmu-cs-spice ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 14 Aug 1985 07:26:11-PDT From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (From the terminal of Brendan E. From: Boelke) Subject: Things that go bump in the night Particularly pertaining to the comment concerning 'things that could happen tomorrow', one of the books that I've read that had me looking over my shoulder for awhile was King's THE STAND. Not the second half of the book - the first. Every time I coughed, I wondered if I had THE flu (are you listening Union Carbide? :-( ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed 14 Aug 85 15:16:34-PDT From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: The Book of Kells I was disappointed in this book. I loved the DAMIANO trilogy and TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON was wonderfully original. THE BOOK OF KELLS was predictable; that was what disappointed me. It wasn't a bad book, just not up to MacAvoy's usual standard. I did enjoy the background stuff on tenth century Ireland, but the characters were just too predictable. Aline Baeck NORRIS@SRI-AI ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: protectors Date: 13 Aug 85 13:40:59 GMT mooremj@EGLIN-VAX writes: >Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a >protector in "Down in Flames"? DIF takes place about the same time >as The Ringworld Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over 200 >years old. Beowulf is Louis's stepfather, so he is closer to >300...way WAY past the maximum age to become a protector! Ideas? SPOILER WARNING: IF YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD OF "DOWN IN FLAMES", YOU MAY NOT WANT TO READ THIS -- NIVEN MAY WRITE THE BOOK SOMEDAY. Down in Flames was conceived before Ringworld Engineers...in fact, it may have been conceived before Ringworld, since one of the premises of Down in Flames is that the faster FTL drive (used in Ringworld) was actually a hoax. Therefore, Down in Flames could very well be incompatible with Known Space as it has since developed. NEVERTHELESS, I can suggest one way that Beowulf Sheaffer could easily be the right age to eat Tree-of-Life root anytime he wanted. In the known Sheaffer stories, he is likely in his late twenties/early thirties. He could be Louis's stepfather at this time. Then for some reason (possibly connected with the Puppeteer hoax that he helped start), he had occasion to hop on a Ramjet and go off somewhere at speeds that would provide enough relativistic time dilation to let him age ten years while Louis ages 200. At the end of the journey, Sheaffer ends up...at Home, for example, where there is lots of Tree-of-Life root. Sheaffer turns into a protector, picks up an FTL rocket from the ones left on Home when the other Protectors left, and rushes back to wherever he has to be to start the events in Down in Flames. Second possibility: the whole point of Down in Flames is that the T'Nuctipun are not dead. Suppose the T'Nuctipun get worried about human Protectors... after all, human Protectors are supposed to be even nastier than Pak Protectors. The T'Nuctipun figure that it might be in their best interests to study a Protector, maybe "put one on the payroll" so to speak so they can have their tame Protector help them against other protectors that may appear. They grab poor Sheaffer as Sheaffer is off alone on some solo trip (who cares what he's doing?), stuff him full of Tree-of-Life root, then hold him prisoner for centuries. Perhaps they can keep him in line just by threatening to destroy large human colonies if he disobeys. A Protector would likely submit if the alternative was a direct threat to his charges. So Sheaffer has to help the T'Nuctipun for 200 years; then he manages to escape in some clever way (perhaps he fakes his own death so the T'Nuctipun don't make a retributive strike on humanity), and the wheels are set in motion. This makes a more interesting scenario, because it means that there is at least one Protector out there who has some familiarity with T'Nuctipun technology. NOTE: To all those who have never heard of Down in Flames, it was a story outline by Larry Niven that circulated on the net a few years ago. In it, the whole Known Space series was turned on its ear by the suggestion that the T'Nuctipun were not a race that died out a million years ago. They're here, now, and nasty. For their own reasons, they mug any ship that tries to go FTL too close to any star's gravity well (it's to their advantage that Known Space races believe that they have to go a long way out of their way before they can go FTL). The Puppeteers are fleeing from the T'Nuctipun, not the exploding centre of the galaxy. In fact, the centre of the galaxy is not exploding. That is all a hoax the Puppeteers played on Beowulf Sheaffer to explain why they were running. And so on, and so forth. Everything you thought you knew is far from the truth. Down in Flames was thrown together after some sort of party many years ago. Someone suggested to Niven that he should write one last Known Space story and destroy most of the galaxy. Down in Flames certainly puts an end to Known Space as we know it. However, I doubt if it can be considered an official part of the series; if and when the book ever comes out, it is likely to be a lot different. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 1985 16:16:42-EDT (Wednesday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: "Space Walrus" The story about the "space walrus" is "Resurrection" by Van Vogt, and there is no such beastie in it. The rest of the details are pretty close though. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 85 10:53:13 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Spielberg From: Peter Alfke orstcs!richardt writes: > Two great fallacies about Spielberg movies ... > 2) Steven Spielberg has never had a major female character. > Although Princess Leia is not exactly Kate Hepburn, she isn't all > sweetness and light either. Let me be the 56th to point out that Leia is a creation of George Lucas, not Steven Spielberg. How "major" was Karen Allen's character in "Raiders"? She certainly had less screen time than Harrison Ford, but I found her a very likeable, strong woman. Hearing that not only was she not in "Temple of Doom", but that the female sidekick was a stereotypically weak woman, was one of the major factors that made me decide to not see that movie. --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 85 13:28 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Chekov as propaganda Did you ever notice how Chekov was a brilliant piece of anti-soviet propaganda? He was a bright fellow, he had just been lied to about all those facts he knew. This was a humorous way of pointing out that the USSR lies about EVERYTHING, from the origin of quadrotriticaly to the origin of vodka. "It was inwented by a little old lady outside of Leningrad." Quite pointed if you look past the humor. Unfortunately, it is the kind of face the USSR shows the world these days. Jon Pugh ------------------------------ From: orca!ariels@topaz.arpa (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: Payment to guests at cons Date: 12 Aug 85 15:35:45 GMT > Just out of curiosity... What is the generally-accepted formula > for paying "star"-type guests at cons, like the actors that have > played the Doctor at Dr. Who cons, or the Star Trek actors at ST > cons, or noted authors at SF cons? Do they get just free room & > board and travel expenses, or are they paid a rate equivalent to > what they would get as actors in a stage production lasting that > long (and if so, how are author's fees determined?), or do the con > committees negotiate a fee with the personalities' agents, or > what? > > In general terms, do these people attend these cons out of the > goodness of their hearts, or for the publicity value, rather than > to make money? Or do they do it as a job and charge "commercial" > rates for their time? > > Will Martin Guests at media cons are often paid appearance fees. At most SF cons, the guests of honor get transportation, room, maybe board or a per diem for themselves and a companion or family. Authors and artists who aren't guests of honor may get free membership in the convention for themselves and maybe a guest or companion. This sort of thing depends on the policy of the con committee. Most authors I know go to cons not for publicity or any sense of altruism, but because they enjoy cons. They get to get fawned over by fans, hob-nob with fellow authors, party, make business connections, and write it all off on their taxes as a business expense (which it is!). To get an author at your convention, just write directly to the author and ask. A few authors will direct enquiries to agents, but most handle their own corespondence. I don't know the details of getting a media personality to a convention because I've never been on the con-com of a media con. Ariel (Come to Orycon!) Shattan ..!tektronix!orca!ariels ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.arpa (Davis Tucker) Subject: Ken Moreau, Spider Robinson, Art, Helen Keller, and Me Date: 14 Aug 85 03:37:36 GMT >I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you whether >it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read". To me this >indicates that the two concepts are orthogonal, and have nothing to >do with each other. Thank you, I will ignore both *ART* and >critics who talk about *ART* because I have found this bias to be >pretentious, boring, unapproachable, and generally gives me no >pleasure. > [KEN MOREAU] Spider Robinson... (the sound of spitting in derision and disgust) knows absolutely nothing, or next to nothing, about being a reviewer, as he has so amply demonstrated in his review columns, and even less about being a critic. Gene Shalit gives more depth; Rona Barret gives more detail; and "Entertainment Tonight" gives more understanding. I have never understood why *ART* is so bad, such a pejorative, in America and especially in American science fiction. In most places in the world, to say that something is "great art" is a compliment. To you and Spider Robinson (author of such art as "Harry Callahan's Crossroad Five-Guys-In-A-Bar-Trade-Stupid-Puns- And-Act-Superior-And- Incredibly-Sophomoric"), it is an insult. Art and a "good read" may have nothing to do with each other, but I and many, many others will disagree violently at such a purposefully ignorant attitude. These hedonistic tendencies will leave you with little fulfillment, less enlightenment, and no understanding of the world outside D&D games and national news programs. To ignore art because it gives no pleasure is synonomous with ignoring education because it gives no money. A backward, Luddite, barbarian attitude which makes me wonder how anyone who ever held this belief ever got the drive and motivation to learn how to read. This is not idle electronic banter, and it is not specifically directed at you, or at Mr. Robinson. But to champion a "good read" over "great art" is very, very egocentric. It also belies an inferiority complex about one's ability to appreciate art and uphold one's personal standards as opposed to lying down and accepting the tyranny of entertainment. Many definitions of great art encompass being a "good read", but this quality is but a portion of what it takes to write a great novel. Spider Robinson's championing of ease of reading over depth of feeling is simple laziness. He, and many others, choose not to exercise their minds or their hearts, but to relax and enjoy and treat books as if they were TV sit-coms. Subsequently, he says that because this is what he enjoys - semi-mindless entertainment such as he and so many others in his field have made a career of - it is what is good, and is better than what he does not enjoy - art. I have never made any statements to the effect that something is good because I enjoy it. I have appreciated many works which I did not necessarily enjoy or find a "good read". Enrichment of the heart and enlightenment of the mind do not come to the lazy or the proudly ignorant. How many "enjoyable" works have allowed you or forced you to walk a mile in another man's shoes ("Soul On Ice"), or understand the nature of death ("The Death Of Ivan Ilych"), or feel outrage at terrible injustice ("Les Miserables"), or come face to face with home and family ("The Last Picture Show"), or realize that politics affects individuals as well as societies ("A Tale Of Two Cities"), to see the depths of depravity and hatred of self ("Notes From Underground", "In The Belly Of The Beast", "Heart Of Darkness"), to internalize and gain some knowledge of the human condition? There is so much trash and fluff and junk and silliness in our culture, so much championing of materialism and the easy road to understanding, a sort of mental "get rich quick" ethos. To downgrade the name of art in favor of a "good read" is to say to the world "I am ignorant, and I am proud of it, and I shall remain blissfully so". It is an attitude which Madison Avenue and every manipulator loves with a fervor usually reserved for God. There are so many closed minds in this world, so many minds which have never seen a book or heard a new idea, too many. It is criminal to close your mind to the sublime and the new because it does not entertain you, while these who have never had the chance remain in enforced ignorance, an ignorance which so many in America embrace and raise to the heights of a new religion. It is diseased, it is animal, it is a total abnegation of the faculties of intelligence. Choose to ignore art; choose to wallow in the filth of ignorance and the ordure of pure entertainment; hold Spider Robinson up as a genius and a great writer and a great commentator on the human condition. Remain an intellectual and artistic Helen Keller - but remember that she, who had so little ability to appreciate greatness and art and love and life, struggled her entire life to appreciate those very things which you and Mr. Robinson and so many others of your ilk choose to downgrade and spit upon and despise. I shake my head in wonder and awe at the power of ignorance and the majesty of barbarianism. And I wish that I did not shake my head so often, or so long. Davis Tucker ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Aug 85 1027-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #327 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 16 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 327 Today's Topics: Books - Cowper & Forward & Harrison & Niven & Wyndham, Films - My Science Project, Miscellaneous - Blank Holes (2 msgs) & The Problems of SF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) Subject: Re: THE ROAD TO CORLAY and sequel Date: 14 Aug 85 16:43:52 GMT jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) > The sequel is A DREAM OF KINSHIP, published by Timescape Books. > I can't recall the exact date (my copy is packed away right now), I can verify this^ >but it was somewhen circa 1982, I think. I can correct this^ by looking at my copy. _A_Dream_of_Kinship_, Richard Cowper, copyright 1981 by Colin Murray, first Timescape printing August 1981, ISBN 0-671-43304-0 I'm sorry to say I didn't like it as much, and I didn't finish it so maybe it gets better! Also, the cover's not as nice as _The_Road_to_Corlay_-- don't think it's Maitz, either, but I can't see a signature so I can't tell. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY Date: 15 Aug 85 00:04:45 GMT THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY by Robert Forward Baen, 1985 A book review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: This is a good hard science novel, but several cuts beneath Forward's DRAGON'S EGG. The book seems inflated and flawed. If you want the ideas, just read the appendix. Back in 1980, Robert Forward published a particularly enjoyable first novel. DRAGON'S EGG was about a race, the Cheela, rapidly evolving on a neutron star headed for our solar system. The book chronicled the human expedition to visit the neutron star and the story of the Cheela's entire history which, with their much faster timescale, covered little more than days of our time. The elements--hard science, an unusual environment, the resulting aliens, their contact with humans--all were reminiscent of MISSION OF GRAVITY by Hal Clement. It was the most enjoyable novel I'd read in a good while and I was disappointed that it was not even nominated for a Hugo. THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY is Forward's second novel--the one that decides if he is a writer or a man who had a good idea for one book. The answer is probably somewhere in between. This book is no DRAGON'S EGG. It's readable, but no great shakes. In this book he makes the mistake of having a much less interesting breed of aliens than in the former book, so Forward concentrates much more on the humans than on the aliens. Well, the humans are much less interesting than the aliens. The plot is pretty standard stuff, really. Humans go to alien planet, humans meet friendly aliens, humans have adventure trying to leave alien planet. On this well-worn plot Forward hangs some details, usually based on scientific fact. He has details about the design of his interstellar craft, about the nature of his aliens, the Flouwen, and about planetary physics. He even has a few ideas about robotics. Forward, unfortunately, has a dramatic problem with his ideas for interstellar flight. He does not have a mechanism for bringing his travelers back to Earth. The very fact undercuts much of the possible suspense, since his humans don't really have a whole lot to live for. That being the case, it is difficult for the reader to make himself care if the humans survive. The limited technology also tends to make the first part of the book drag since it would take our humans a while to find the alien lifeform, so Forward has the choice of glossing over the interstellar flight and the search or of describing it in some detail. Forward opts for the latter, creating a thicker book which probably pays better, but making a novel which is less satisfying than the more pithy DRAGON'S EGG. The book is further thickened by an extended appendix that recaps all the interesting ideas of the book, though it adds little to them. The appendix of DUNE worked very well to ass an air of authenticity to the book by fleshing out details and making Arrakis more complete and real. However, there is little in the appendix of THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY that is not in the main body of the book. With an appendix, there is always some question as to when to read it. If you read it too soon, it can ruin plot details; if you read it too late, it does not perform the function of broadening the background. There are standard Forward touches in THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY. One of them is a curiously forced inclusion of sexual references. In DRAGON'S EGG the aliens take a special in a female astronaut's breast. In THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY, we have a moon with a tit and sex demonstrations for the aliens. And on the subject of strained touches, I enjoyed the allusion to THE SPACE MERCHANTS and "Chicken Little." That may well be what chicken tissue culture might be called because that was what it was called in that book. But references to science fiction go a bit far when one of the characters is a big fan of DRAGON'S EGG. One doubts that the book will be remembered in another 90 years. Some of Forward's ideas either do not make sense or are not properly explained. The book seems to confuse the concepts of mere unlimited lifespan and true immortality. The Flouwen have no concept of death in a world that seems to have obvious physical dangers for them. The double planet system described might well be physically stable enought to exist, but more than that is necessary to make the world believable. I do not remember Forward explaining how the double world came into being. The Flouwen are supposed to be mathematically far advanced over us. Now this is not something easy to convey in a work of fiction and Forward does it by having mathematically immature Flouwen doing familiar proofs, like Cantor's, in their heads. In fact, he seems to pick out a bunch of well-known problems and has the Flouwen solve them with ease, as if all races would look at pretty much the same problems. Actually, in the history of mathematics--our mathematics--the paths taken have usually been closely associated with physical problems, problems that the Flouwen would not have faced. They might never have looked at some of our most interesting problems, and we might never have considered most of theirs. It seems unlikely that the Flouwen's environment would challenge them sufficiently to have the supremely advanced mathematics that Forward claims they have. (Actually, I had given some though years ago to what really advanced mathematics would seem like to us and how to credibly portray it in science fiction, but that is really more of a digression than I can comfortably go into here. Buttonhole me sometime if you are really interested.) In any case, THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY is readable and diverting, but a real come-down from DRAGON'S EGG. You are better off re-reading that. Rate this book a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 85 22:37:07 edt From: Mike Ardai Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat I have noticed a recent resurgence of interest in Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat books; this is good to see, since they have been (in my erstwhile opinion) underrated in the past. In a recent conversation with the author the subject of further SSR material came up; for anyone who's interested, here it is. Aside from the already published pentology (the titles of which have been posted previously), Harry has been quite busy with this character. Slippery Jim has his own pseudo-role- playing-game, board game and comic book, though the board game seems only to be available in England. Also restricted to European publication is a Rat choose-your-own-adventure book -- says Harrison, "It came out fine, but I'll never do it again." But the best news of all has to be the announcement of his latest Rat novel, A Stainless Steel Rat is Born. Detailing Degriz's early years, it includes info on how he started on his life of crime and his infamous escape for the juvenile detention center at age sixteen. I'm really looking forward to this one; I don't know about you, but much as I liked the rest of the series, nothing can hold a candle to the opening sequence in the first novel when the Rat is still a criminal. Enjoy. -Charles Ardai Contact through : ARPANET: UI.MIKE@CU20B.ARPA BitNet: MIAUS@CUVMA UseNet: (...!seismo!columbia!cucca!mike) ------------------------------ From: iitcs!draughn@topaz.arpa (Mark Draughn) Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors Date: 13 Aug 85 01:27:50 GMT >From: Dave Godwin > Bigger question, though. This one has always bothered me >about Niven's universe. What the heck happens to Home after the >Protectors left to beat off the Pak ? Obviously, our guys win, >because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown. But what happens >to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating in the >atmosphere ? It bugs me. More important. What happened to brennan's fleet? They probably won the war, but... As far as they know, Earth is unprotected. Earth is also left without the Brennan-monster to keep the peace. Any time now, the fleet should be returning. Protectors with hyperdrive will be unbeatable. They can do anything they want. (Unless humanity kills them off. But I don't believe thay would.) They might want to rebuild the ringworld. They would certainly slaughter the Kzinti and the Trinocs. They might decide to kill off the grogs, the bandersnatchi, maybe even a few of the puppeteers. Whatever happens, it would make a damned good story. Mark Draughn ------------------------------ From: cdstar!saltiel@topaz.arpa (Jack Saltiel) Subject: John Wyndham detective novels--wanted. Date: 14 Aug 85 23:36:18 GMT I have read all of Wyndham's Science Fiction(Day_of_the_Trifids, The_Chrysalids, etc.,) or all that I know exists. He is unusual in that genre, in that he write prose suburbly, (or did when he was alive.) He has also authored a number of detective novels that are all out of print. Can anyone identify these works and where I might find them in any condition?? ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: MY SCIENCE PROJECT Date: 15 Aug 85 00:05:26 GMT MY SCIENCE PROJECT A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: MY SCIENCE PROJECT gets a barely passing grade. Back around 1960 Disney Studios made a couple of decent fantasy films: THE SHAGGY DOG and THE ABSENT-MINDED PROFESSOR. After that they hit a slump, making a series of films that traded off of the popularity of these films. They were mostly similar in content to these films; some were sequels. There was some market for these bland films, but Disney's lack of originality was sowing the seeds of audience contempt for the Disney name. MY SCIENCE PROJECT is the film that Disney should have made in 1962. Unfortunately, they did not, and now it is too late. Audiences have higher expectations from post-STAR WARS fantasy films and MY SCIENCE PROJECT really does not hack it. The story is of a high school car lover who is forced to do a science project. He wants to rebuild the engine of a World War II airplane which he was going to "borrow" from a local air base. Instead, he gets the engine from a UFO that the government has been hiding for years. It does weird things and in the finale--which seems hours into the film--it opens a hole in the space-time continuum and lets through a Whitman's Sampler of dangerous humans and animals from other points of space-time. Back when audiences expected a lot of only vaguely amusing story and were willing to wait for a fantasy punch at the end, this sort of story would have cut the mustard. The film has other problems too. The characters all seem to know why they are doing what they are doing, but often it is not explained very well to the audience. At one point, the characters seem to be chasing some electrical something on power wires. First, it is the slowest thing that ever went over power lines, but even beyond that, the script never explains what it is they are chasing or what would happen if they lost the race. Often scenes seem to fail because the director has no idea how long a scene should take. At one point two characters have a two-minute conversation while holding up a line of cars. I can see the line waiting while the grease-monkey repairs the lead car, but the conversation went on long after he finished. This film has problems with continuity, logic, and especially pacing. Rate it a low 0 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.arpa (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes Date: 13 Aug 85 00:09:41 GMT franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >Yes, you can make a black hole out of anti-matter. But the result >is just a black hole, not an anti-matter black hole. There is no >way to distinguish it from a black hole made from ordinary matter. > >In particular, if one collided with another black hole, the result >would be just a bigger black hole. Not an explosion destroying the >two black holes. Black holes have almost no properties which allow us to tell anything about them, except that they have spin, charge, and the apparent diameter provided by the event horizon, which is apparently a function of mass. I wonder what would happen if two holes with opposite spin, identical mass and neutral charge collided. Especially if the event horizon were small enough... Hutch ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes Date: 14 Aug 85 22:50:31 GMT Isn't everyone missing the point anyway? Procyon's Promise (and Life Probe) are predicated on the idea that when we actually go out and *observe* black holes ``directly'', we won't find what we expect. Have you checked your antimatter black hole recently? (Not that I expect later observations to disagree with current theories, but I think everyone's going a bit overboard here.) Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: I may not know Art, but I know Paul Simon Date: 14 Aug 85 04:00:00 GMT I suspect that the use of "art" as a prejoritave stems from the fact that quite often material is passed off as art when it is quite simply *BAD*. Many forms of art require detailed study to be fully appreciated. Thus people are used to not appreciating some artforms immediately. One doesn't appreciate bad material immediately either. It has this in common with some art. So bad material sometimes gets passed off as arty, and this gives art a bad name. What Spider Robinson (an author whom I dislike, btw) may be trying to say is that truly superb art involves excellent communication skills as well. You may have something valid to say about emotions or the human condition, and you may be able to convey it to a few who think as you do, but an artist of great skill conveys it to all. Lots of people are clever. Great people spread their cleverness into the world. Brad Templeton Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Aug 85 1053-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #328 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 16 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 328 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Delany & Niven, Films - The Fantastic Voyage (3 msgs) Music - Pat Benatar, Miscellaneous - Ewoks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.arpa (Ray Lubinsky) Subject: Re: Re: To Reign in Hell ("The Idiot Plot" ???!!!) Date: 14 Aug 85 03:47:00 GMT > Just to toss out another opinion on this book; this was the worst > book that I've ever finished. It wasn't bad enough to make me > give up on it completely, I guess I just kept waiting for it to > get good. Admittedly fantasy is my least favorite form of fiction > but this book borderlined on what Roger Ebert likes to call "The > Idiot Plot". If any one of the main characters acted sensibly > during the first half of the book, the book would have been over. > After all the good things I'd heard about the book, I was > definitely disappointed. You, sir or madam, wouldn't know a work of fiction if it jumped up and bit you on the arse! ``The Idiot Plot,'' huh? Perhaps you haven't read ``Romeo and Juliet,'' a play by Will somebody-or-other. Melodrama, man, M-E-L-O-D-R-A-M-A. It isn't often handled too well these days; I really credit Steve Brust with a job well done for ``To Reign in Hell.'' Melodrama means your characters are prey to forces beyond their control. In this myth, even the gods are caught in the web of their own machinations. The characters don't ``act sensibly''... but rather they act like people. Brust handles this with the dexterity and dry wit of the early Zelzany. Yeah, it's got some flaws, but the overall quality is high. Who knows -- maybe you were joking. You know, ``:-)'', and all that. Probably not. I guess you're right; fantasy isn't your can of worms. Back to Sidney Sheldon with you. Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Samual Delany's Dahlgren Date: 13 Aug 85 20:01:43 GMT From Tim Ryan: >> _Dhalgren_ ends up being a circle -- the main character ends >> up leaving the city, only to be in the same situation that he was >> in at the start of the novel. I don't think there was a "moral" >> to the story, either. I saw the story more as a character study. >> I certainly agree with the original poster and with you that >> _Dhalgren_ is a bizarre novel. For a short, classic piece of >> Delaney, I recommend "Time Considered as a Helix of Semiprecious >> Stones." I personally enjoyed reading "Nova" too, although some of the other people in this group thought it was not one of Delaney's best. It's been quite a few years since I read it, though so I'm not sure what my reaction would be on rereading it. I have to admit I've yet to make it through "Dhalgren;" I'm currently trying it again (but then it took three aborted attempts to get through Thomas Pynchon's "V" :-). The requirement that the novel contain conflict(s) and a denouement is (to the best of my recollection) a more or less European literary tradition. There's a Japanese novel, for example, with a title that has the word "mountain" in it, that is about an old man's experiences as he awaits his death (I can't remember the title or author, unfortunately). The effect is that of a chunk lifted out of the old man's life; this kind of fiction can seem boring to a Western reader who expects a novel to build to one or more climaxes before things are wrapped up at the end (note of course that a lot of 20th century European and American fiction departs from this model, "Dhalgren" being one example). Our definition of Good Story has been conditioned by our experiences as members of 20th century Western society, and we bring to our reading of fiction (SF as well as other genres) certain expectations based on that conditioning that are just as rigid as the Japanese Noh fan's expectations when he goes to view a play. I suspect the difficulty a lot of us have with "Dahlgren" is related to the strength of that conditioning and the difficulty we have in stepping outside its rigid bounds to appreciate a work of art that was crafted to approach the human experience in a different way. I expect I'll end up liking "Dahlgren;" if not, I'll at least appreciate the craftsmanship that went into it. In any case, I'll work for the enjoyment (but part of the kick in reading such a book for me is my response to the demands the author puts on me as a reader). -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: sesame!slerner@topaz.arpa (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner) Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors Date: 15 Aug 85 00:04:27 GMT There has been a lot of talk about Niven's Protectors, and I seem to have missed (at least) one major story (the one involving Home) with protectors... Could you all MAIL me a list of all Niven books/stories with protectors? I will post a summary here. Thanks.. Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner {genrad|ihnp4|ima}!wjh12!talcott!sesame!slerner {cbosgd|harvard}!talcott!sesame!slerner slerner%sesame@harvard.ARPA ------------------------------ To: sunybcs!ugzannin@topaz.arpa (Adrian Zannin) Subject: Re: (SPOILER) Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"??? Date: 15 Aug 85 00:03:43 PDT (Thu) From: Alastair Milne > Just the other night I watched the movie "The Fantastic Voyage". > . . . Now, almost 10 years later, I finally got to see it again > and found what may be a mistake on Isaac Asimov's part. Several matters that were rather loosely handled in the film were explained much better (or even worked completely differently) in the book; for example, does a multi-ton submarine normally many metres long still weigh several tons when it fits inside the needle of a syringe? and if it does, how is the syringe handled?. Careful, non-technical explanations are given to Grant, and thereby to the reader. Personally, I recall 2 blatant mistakes from the film, which is quite remarkable given the restrictions of the time at which it was made. 1. The Proteus was left in Benes after Grant sliced its flank open and the white cell consumed Michaels. In the book, Grant makes certain that the white cell, having engulfed Proteus, follows him out: he does not want several tons of metal, however corroded, returning to normal size in Benes' skull. 2. Far too few red cells in Benes' blood. They should have been like a swamp around Proteus. As it appeared, he would have been too anaemic to survive. > . . . Well, wouldn't there be a problem with the size of the air > molecules? I mean, when the sub was miniaturized, the air inside > it was shrunken also. Now, wouldn't there be at least a bogus air > pressure reading when they fill up with normal air that hasn't > been miniaturized? For that matter, would the air molecules even > be able to fit into the sub? You are talking about something so fantastically small that, even un-miniaturised, they would have been too small for the Proteus' crew to see. I think even the lipoproteins (which are macromolecules) comprising the surface of the red blood cells would have been just on the limit of miniaturised sight. As for how effective they would be, I doubt that they would make any difference unless one had to breathe them; and as far as I'm aware, it was, just as you say, the ballast tanks that were being replenished. It probably is true, though, that atoms so enormously different in size could not be assimilated into miniaturised metabolisms. Also, I seem faintly to recall something about Captain Owens' extending a reduced miniaturising field along the snorkel. They obviously couldn't do a full effect, since the entire capacity of a man's lungs couldn't begin to fill a sub's ballast tanks if they are on the same scale; and they only had access to a single alveolus. But they could probably get a decent compromise size. Hope this helps. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 15 Aug 1985 09:52-EDT From: sdl@Mitre-Bedford Cc: sunybcs!ugzannin@topaz, sdl@Mitre-Bedford Subject: Re: Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"??? >Well, wouldn't there be a problem with the size of the air >molecules? I mean, when the sub was miniaturized, the air inside >it was shrunken also. Now, wouldn't there be at least a bogus air >pressure reading when they fill up with normal air that hasn't been >miniaturized? For that matter, would the air molecules even be >able to fit into the sub? There were a lot of such inconsistencies in the movie that Asimov tried to patch in the book. In this case, Asimov wrote that the submarine had a portable miniaturizer on board, and was miniaturizing the air as it came in. Of course, this means that the volume of air before miniaturization was sufficient to fill a normal-sized submarine's tanks; sucking in this much air through the patient's lungs should have had a noticeable effect. Another mistake occurred near the end of the movie, when the submarine is ingested/destroyed by the white corpuscles. Even destroyed, the fragments of the submarine after deminiaturization would be the same mass (and comparable volume) of the original submarine, which should have exploded the patient from within. Asimov tried to patch this one in the book, by having the white corpuscles follow the explorers out of the patient's body. The problem with "Fantastic Voyage" is that they could never figure out a consistent relationship between the principle of miniaturization and the conservation of mass. Steven Litvintchouk (617)271-7753 ARPA: sdl@mitre-bedford UUCP: ...{allegra,decvax,genrad,ihnp4,philabs,security,utzoo} !linus!bccvax!sdl ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"??? Date: 14 Aug 85 16:48:47 GMT Oh boy. More Fantastic Voyage flames! > Just the other night I watched the movie "The Fantastic Voyage". > I had seen it several years ago and I had also read the book back > when I was in 6th grade, so I really didn't catch everything the > first time through. Now, almost 10 years later, I finally got to > see it again and found what may be a mistake on Isaac Asimov's > part. Asimov didn't write the screenplay. He wrote the book based on the screenplay. Read the book and you'll see the answer to the following question is... > Remember when the submarine ran into a problem and lost some > air out of the ballast tanks? The solution was to push the sub's > snorkel through the wall of an alveoli in the guy's lung and get > some air when he inhaled. Well, wouldn't there be a problem with > the size of the air molecules? I mean, when the sub was > miniaturized, the air inside it was shrunken also. Now, wouldn't > there be at least a bogus air pressure reading when they fill up > with normal air that hasn't been miniaturized? For that matter, > would the air molecules even be able to fit into the sub? In the book they used the miniaturiser on the air in the guy's lungs, and at one point someone comments that "we're pulling air from the room straight through his tissues", or words to that effect. The question then becomes why they bothered with the lungs in the first place, but don't blame Asimov for that one. There's a worse problem with the movie: they leave the spaceship inside the guy! But don't blame Asimov. He didn't have anything to do with it. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: SF in music. Date: 14 Aug 85 17:17:48 GMT A bit late, I know... but I just heard Pat Benatar's "My clone sleeps alone". Has anyone mentioned this one yet? Peter da Silva (the mad Australian) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.arpa (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: "cute" Ewoks Date: 12 Aug 85 13:45:48 GMT > There has been much speculation about the ability of little > Ewoks to produce the kind of attack depicted in the film. I would > agree with those who suggest that this is a hunting society, so > some of the item seen would have been built; another idea > presented by someone here was that the Storm- troopers had been a > problem for the Ewoks for some time, and the Ewoks had already > been fighting back. > Still, I think Ewoks, as presented would have a greater > capability than they have been credited with. I think there has > been an erroneous tendency to look at a little Ewok and dismiss > any possibility of heavy work quickly. I submit, however, that > four to six Ewoks could chop down a tree in an hour, and fifty > Ewoks, using a primitive form of block and tackle, could raise the > stripped log. Others could use ordinary levers to move logs into > a pile restrained by a keystone-type lever. > The Ewoks would seem to be early-to-middle Paleolithic. They > have learned fire, sophisticated weapons-making, and have a tribal > structure in what does not appear to be a nomadic society. > Moreover, they have had some exposure to the modern technology of > the Empire. None of the activity attributed to them would be > beyond a humanoid culture at the same stage of development. It is > anthrocentristic to deny small, furry people the same > capabilities. The Ewoks are, in many ways, what Piper's Fuzzies > would have become had a non-interference directive kept them > uncontaminated by man. (Place rasberry here) Rubbish!, spare me a load of rationalization. I don't really give a rip wether their stage of development could make them serious competitors or not. They were chosen by a human to emphasize characteristics we consider "cute". This does not in my mind aid the plot, it keeps us from taking them seriously just like cartoonization keeps people from taking bears seriously (which are certainly serious creatures) and gets some of them hurt. The point is that this was vastly detrimental to the plot which would have been much better if he had used characters we could have taken seriously rather than ones we tend to associate with defenseless or harmless creatures. >>. . .otherwise skywalker an co. wouldn't have put up with them >>tying them up et al. >This isn't realistic belief. If I'm busy shooting down Ewoks in >front of me with my blaster while Ewoks to me left, right, and >behind are filling me full of arrows and spears, I'm going to be as >dead as any Ewoks I shoot. Perhaps. but I think that if the ewoks had not learned by now to scatter when they caught blaster fire there would be no ewoks. They showed themselves a primitive god worshipping race. In keeping with this I would expect they would have been a little less blase about large people who fling fire from from their fingertips, I know one of our primitive societies would. With stubby arms combined with their small size it would be difficult to put any force behind one of those sticks and the bows if my fuzzy memory serves me were a joke. Seriously, one good Uzi would have taken the whole lot out Which brings up another question. Where is the futuristic hand held machine gun? >>Yes, I like fuzzies but only when treated as fuzzies not as a >>serious character which is to give storm troopers any competition. >>This suggest a reference to Piper's Fuzzy novels. >If Mr. Albrecht read them and got the idea that Fuzzies weren't >serious characters or were capable of little beyond "yeeking" and >"smokko", then he missed a very great deal. Oh, there's no question the fuzzies where intelligent this, after all, was the point of the whole series. But as to being a physical threat I think not. Creatures that size learn the same response to a larger predator that I have with large unfriendly animals when I'm only armed with a sharp stick (I don't know about you but I run). David Albrecht General Electric ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 85 1056-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #329 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 329 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (3 msgs) & MacCaffrey vs Cherryh, Films - Real Genius & Warlords of the 21st Century, Music - SF in Music, Television - Doll Stories, Miscellaneous - NASFiC & How to Communicate & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Aug 85 10:42:07 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: Protectors From: Peter Alfke How could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector (in "Down In Flames") if he was well over 200 years old? Simple. Boosterspice kept his physical age down to 30 or so. --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.arpa (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Pak Protectors Date: 14 Aug 85 01:10:57 GMT >From: Vince.Fuller@CMU-CS-C.ARPA >> Bigger question, though. This one has always bothered me about >> Niven's universe. What the heck happens to Home after the >> Protectors left to beat off the Pak ? Obviously, our guys win, >> because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown. But what >> happens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus floating >> in the atmosphere ? It bugs me. > > My guess would be that the Home Protectors continue to keep the > human race as a whole as its charge, looking out for us and > keeping us out of trouble. The Home colony was given as a failure > in the timeline in "Tales of Known Space", and "Protector" has, at > least for me, the impression of being a report that was never seen > by most of humanity - the Protecors probably just kept Home for > themselves as a base. Keep in mind that Protectors live a LONG > time, O(10Kyears), so they need not even supplement their numbers > very often. !! I wonder !! In my copy of PROTECTOR it is stated that the Pak are mostly dumb browsers and couldn't be dangerous to ANYONE. . . hence the Pak Protector, who WAS. The Protectors on Home originally fought to protect ``their'' Pak (each Pak ``clan'' had its own Protector(s)); but the Pak on Home (the ONLY Pak, short of the attempted colonization of some world way out in the spiral arms. . .) were dead. The Pak Protectors left Home because Phssthpok had shown them the records that a group of Pak had indeed left, and therefore might be the only Pak alive. And the Pak Protectors HAD to protect Pak, else they would die. Of course, when they discovered that we were mutated (and thus not-Pak and thus to be destroyed. . . Which Brennan managed somehow to change, probably by the evidence that these WERE the only Pak or near-Pak around. The Pak Protectors took on protecting humans because we are NEAR-Pak, and all that remains of the Pak race, short of the Protectors themselves. Or did I totally mis-read the first part of PROTECTOR? (I read R.E.; I saw nothing incompatible, in fact PROTECTOR explained R.E. to me.) Brandon Allbery, Unix Consultant 6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, OH 44131 decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!bsa; ncoast!bsa@case.csnet; +1 216 524 1416; 74106,1032 ------------------------------ From: bottom@katadn.DEC Subject: Re: Protectors Date: 15 Aug 85 17:42:44 GMT Beowolf Scheaffer becomes a Protector? I missed that one. What story/book did this happen in? Thanks... Dave Bottom DEC Augusta Maine !dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: Cherryh vs. McCaffrey Date: 15 Aug 85 20:22:00 GMT >>>May St. Patrick forgive you for the mortal insult to Erin. I >>>will struggle to do the same. I concede that McCaffrey may be a >>>'low taste' writer, but she can at least imbue her characters >>>with some personality--something at which Cherryh fails utterly. > >And gee, on the local bulletin boards we just had a discussion >about how bad her male characters are. They all talk like a '50s >western. > >I like her stuff, but to compare Cherryh unfavorably with her? Ick. HA!! McCaffrey is wonderful! Her books always have an accessible plot which the reader can recognize in minutes by relating the current book to any of her other works. Her protagonists lose nothing in the translation from book to book, nor do they suffer a change in personality to match their name changes and her minor caricatures never get in the way of her plots. Many authors could learn something about consistency from her; her readers always know what they are going to get from a McCaffrey book. CJ Cherryh, on the other hand, has actually had the *gall* to vary her writing style between books. She throws in plot twists that surprise her readers when they absolutely *knew* what was going to happen next. She even forces the poor reader to acquaint himself with a character from *scratch*, no prior referents allowed (her characters even mature as time passes), as if anyone really needs a new person at the center of each story. Her alien societies feel totally foreign to human experience; how can she expect any reader to relate to that? Give me McCaffrey any day, that way I won't have to think too much. All this may have something to do with why I only have all 23 (24?) of CJ Cherryh's books sitting on my shelf, but have an entire three of Anne McCaffrey's. the Shadow ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ Date: 15 Aug 85 10:29:04 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: Real Genius From: Peter Alfke Dave Mankins (dm@bbn-vax.arpa) writes: >the walls covered with grafitti (my god, I'm considering going back >to this movie just to concentrate on the graffiti alone!) Pacific Tech is loosely based on Caltech (at which I'm a student). The director and stars of the film visited Tech last fall, and they wanted to shoot the movie there but Tech wouldn't let them for some reason. A lot of the stuff that goes on at PacTech has happened at Caltech; just not quite as often. Anyway, the dorm that was shown in the movie is a fairly close copy of Dabney House at Caltech, including the huge Saturn mural and all the graffiti. If you would like to come to Pasadena sometime, you can wander through Dabney house (don't worry; Darbs are mellow, no one will bother you) and read an entire dorm-full of such stuff. Needless to say, I think Real Genius is a wonderful, funny movie and everyone should see it, regardless of what they think of Caltech. --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Thu Aug 15 21:56:37 1985 From: mcb@lll-tis-b (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Mad Max Ripoffs > From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa > THUNDER WARRIORS is Canon Group's rip-off of the Mad Max movies. > In retrospect, I'm surprised that no one has tried to rip-off the > concept before this. Actually, there have been quite a few of them. The one I saw most recently was an Italian version, true to the "spaghetti" form and filmed inexpensively, I believe, in Spain or northern Africa. The title escapes me at present. The most memorable was WARLORDS OF THE 21ST CENTURY, which made it to cable TV, and was made in New Zealand. (It was fun to try to figure out where it was filmed while watching; certainly the plot didn't get in the way.) The story was highly predictable, but there were some interesting moments. I can't remember any of the cast except that John Ratzenberger played a minor character. (He's Cliff in "Cheers".) Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.ARPA (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: Hawkwind's Science Fiction in Music Date: 16 Aug 85 07:03:19 GMT Re the vocal background you describe in "The Phenomenon of Luminosity": This sounds like John Glenn, describing what he saw outside his space capsule just after using the urine dump. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: Thu 15 Aug 85 13:04:02-EDT From: William.Chiles@CMU-CS-C.ARPA Subject: Zoning Gallery Dolls There were two doll stories that I remember, one from Night Gallery and one from The Zone. The latter was described in a previous post, so I'll only say that it was about a bitter man ruining the lives of his mate and daughter until one day his daughter obtains a doll that shows her the love she never had. The father cannot destroy the doll for all his efforts, and the doll finally kills him for not leaving well enough alone. Besides the mate and child wished for his death as well. The Night Gallery episode, which is actually what the original query was after, concerned an ex-British officer that had served in Africa, India, or some such place during periods of war and occupation. He was responsible via orders from higher up that he had to obey or lose his job to kill many people wherever he was stationed. One man he killed was a ruthless criminal (or some such person). Many years later in Britian, the officer lives with his niece or daughter and a nanny, and one day a doll arrives. The nanny assumes it is a gift from her employer to the littler girl, so she lets the little girl play with it even though the nanny finds it offensively ugly. The officer immediately recognizes it as a witch doctor device from his days in India (I'll settle on a place). He knows it is useless to get rid of it, and he catches it smiling at him sometimes. His little girl soon realizes the doll is ripping to shreds her other dolls, and she is frightened by it because it says mean things to her. The officer draws up a will leaving everything to the nanny to care for the girl, and he dies. The episode ends with some guy, who you know is the source of the doll, receiving a gift from a delivery boy. The gift is a two foot doll resembling the British officer. Bill ------------------------------ Date: 15 AUG 85 17:03-EDT From: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Re: NASFiC in Austin Texas (Doubtless you've gotten lots of responses by now, but...) (This is being written from memory from PR3, received yesterday) This year's NASFiC, the Lone Star Con and Occasional Chilli Cook-Off, is in Austin, Texas, from August 30th through September 2nd. It is now past the cut-off date for mail-in memberships (August 1st). (Registration is in the Convention Center, 10am to 6pm(?), including on Thursday, Aug. 29.) All of the blocked rooms in the main Con hotels (Hyatt Regency and Sheraton) are full, (although some of the expensive rooms are still available...). There are lots of cheaper hotels/motels, of course, but most are farther from the ?? Convention Center. (I don't remember the name, it's next to the Hyatt.) The Sheraton is the party hotel and the ConSuite is there. (No open door parties allowed in the Hyatt, and they insist on supplying all beverages. The Sheraton has a corkage rule too, but their garage connects directly to the second floor...) The Chilli Cook-Off will be in the Con Suite: provide your own crack-, uh, crock-pot, and about a gallon of chilli. The ConCom reccommends that you cook and freeze it at home, thawing it at the Con. Pearl onions are an automatic disqualification. The Masquerade will be at the Sheraton (50 entries of 2 minutes max), as will daytime movies. No children's masquerade, but prizes for hallway costumes. The Hyatt will house the main programs (5 tracks), author readings and night-time movies. The Art show, dealer's room and special-interest displays will be in the CC. Both the Art show and the dealer's room are full: no at-the-door entries are available. No food or beverage may be brought into the Convention Center. PR3 made a big point of this. Apparently the people (?) with the food concessions (in the huckster's room) can get the Con thrown out if they catch anybody bringing stuff in. Selden Ball Cornell University, LNS NYNEX: (607) 256-4882 Wilson Synchrotron Lab BITNET: SEB@CRNLNS Dryden Road ARPA: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Ithaca, NY 14853 ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@topaz.arpa (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: How to communicate attitudes (and avoid flames!) Date: 14 Aug 85 20:23:10 GMT leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: >>[...from a review of Mark Leeper's review of WEIRD SCIENCE..] >>When the boys programmed the computer to create her, they fed in >>pictures of Albert Einstein for her intelligence component, and >>pictures of David Lee Roth for her personality traits, in addition >>to many Playboy centerfolds for her physical characteristics. >>This makes it obvious how she can manipulate peoples minds, of >>course! > >Huh? Are you telling me that all of Einstein's knowledge was >printed somewhere on his face? There is more to being a genius >than knowing what Einstein looked like! We really have to have some way to communicate sarcasm without a smiley face. Clearly the review of the review was a "Gosh! really?" type observation on the film's rather obvious "misrepresentations of reality". In "Valentina: Soul in Sapphire" by Delaney and Steigler (pico-review: large program becomes sentient) they used the convention of giving facial expressions in angle brackets. Using this convention the last sentence of the comment might be rendered as: " This makes it obvious how she can manipulate people's minds, of course!" While this is a bit clumsy to read at first, familiarity breeds contentment . I strongly recommend that we adopt the convention (at least until something better comes along ). Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo gjerawlins%watdaisy@waterloo.csnet gjerawlins%watdaisy%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa {allegra|clyde|linus|utzoo|inhp4|decvax}!watmath!watdaisy!gjerawlins ------------------------------ Subject: What to do when the aliens arrive. From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1985 09:52 EDT When the first creature from another planet first sets foot, (tenticle, pod, or whatever it may 'set'), on Earth, if it is within our power to do so, we should kill it and eat it. E.T. and Close encounters of the Third Kind aside, real extra terrestrials are unlikely to be so kind and benevolent. A space faring race of beings would be way ahead of us technologically. Being the case, and assuming a continued interaction of two cultures that are many orders of magnitude removed from each other technologically, the less advanced race, (us) would undoubtedly suffer a wide spread collapse of sociological coherance. Consider the cases on Earth that, during the colonial era of 70 to 200 years ago, left advanced western/european societies imposing many of their cultural norms on the countries/areas they occupied. The American Indian, Australian Aboriginal and much of Black Africa today still suffers from the colonial period. Their loosely organized societies were unable to stand up to the much more structured cultures of the colonial powers. That fate would likely await us also. Their culture would undoubtedly be much different from ours, and their technology would be suited to their culture. For us to thus take advantage of their advanced goodies, a dramatic cultural upheaval would be required. Does anyone know of any Sci-fi that deals with this issue? Most I've read runs along these lines; 1) The E.T. type- benevolent cuddly aliens 2) The Childhood's End type- powerful saviors 3) War of the Worlds type- violent encounters 4) The Janissaries- slavers Oh well enough for now. I would be interested in titles/authors that have tried to approach the issue of cultural interaction between very different cultures. Bye Jim White ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 85 1123-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #330 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 330 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Delany & Hughart & Niven (2 msgs) & Generation Ships, Music - Rhiannon, Television - Doll Stories, Miscellaneous - Star Trek Stamp & Aliens & Critics & Black Holes & Non-Carbon Life & Ewoks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: teklds!davidl@topaz.arpa (David Levine) Subject: Re: chanur's venture Date: 15 Aug 85 18:29:31 GMT >>But what was the first book? What is the third? Is the third book >>out in paperback yet? >>Thanks..........Dave Bottom >>Digital Augusta Maine !dec-rhea!dec-katadn!bottom (207) 623-6935 > >The Chanur's Pride Novels: > The Pride of Chanur [1982] > Chanur's Venture [1984] > Chanur's Revenge [1985] >Gregory J.E. Rawlins, Department of Computer Science, U. Waterloo The hardcover edition of the latest Chanur book is entitled not "Chanur's Revenge" but "The Kif Strike Back." (Ouch!) As it happens, I had the opportunity to ask C. J. Cherryh about the title change this weekend. She told me that she's planning a total of FOUR Chanur books. "The Pride of Chanur" is a stand-alone novel, to be followed by a trilogy of which "Chanur's Venture" is the first book. The story behind the title switch is this: At some point, she joked in an editor's hearing that she wanted to title the trilogy "Chanur's Revenge", "The Kif Strike Back", and "Chanur Cleans House" (!!) By that time, "Chanur's Venture" had already been firmly titled, but the editor decided to USE "The Kif Strike Back". However, the third book will actually be titled "Chanur's Homecoming." (Well, we'll see.) David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP] (teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 85 08:13 EST From: Henry Vogel Subject: Dhalgren I was intrigued by the person (sorry, I've deleted that message so I don't know what your name is) who claimed to never have met anyone who didn't think Dhalgren was great, wonderful, or whatever. To contrast that, I only know *one* person who would agree with him - and it's not me. I've read other books by Delany that I thought were excellent, but Dhalgren just wasn't for me. The friend who loves it also runs a newsstand/bookstore which he keeps well stocked with science fiction. I was in there one time when he was trying to get someone to try a new sf novel. The person was reluctant to try it and, since I had just finished it and enjoyed it, I told him I had also liked the book. He still looked reluctant. On a hunch, I said, "I thought Dhalgren sucked." Suddenly, the reluctance disappeared and he bought the book. Henry Vogel henry%clemson.csnet@csnet-relay ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) Subject: _Bridge_of_Birds_ Date: 16 Aug 85 14:52:16 GMT Here's a recommendation for Barry Hughart's _Bridge_of_Birds_. It's almost as good as finding a new Ernest Brama, except that BofB has more supernatural happenings and every other sentence is not an aphorism. (Now, if I could only find copies of my own of _Kai_Lung's_Golden_Hours_ and _Kai_Lung_Unrolls_His_Mat_. Or wait until BofB's sequel is out.) BofB is funny. Oh, and it's a fantasy of a China that never was (which I think is just how the Kai Lung books have been described, too)--I mention it just so those expecting some sort of space opera or evidence of historical accuracy won't be lead astray. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot chabot%amber.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Protectors and the Ringworld Date: 13 Aug 85 17:22:47 GMT MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes: >2) The Ringworld was built by an expedition that left Pak in a > different direction and later sent a secondary expedition in the > direction of Sol. This would have to have occured before the Sol > expedition, else Pthsspok would have found the records of their > having solved the Thalium Oxide problem (you can bet he looked). > It is possible that records before the Sol expedition could have > been lost, but highly unlikely that records of an expedition > after the Sol one would have been lost without also losing the > the Sol records. The original expedition must have been in pretty > good shape to send out a party capable of building the Ringworld. > With only slower than light ships, why bother to send them as far > away as they must have? There must have been other habitable > systems closer to where they were. They couldn't have been in the > neighborhood of Sol originally because they would surely have > left other artifacts around. We are talking a LARGE neighborhood > here, since the Puppeteers conducted commerce in a VERY large > region of space. If they had evidence of other Pak civilizations > in the area, there probably would have been some mention of the > fact. The ringworld could have been founded not by protectors from the home world, but from somewhere else. Maybe there are ringworlds all around the galaxy. The Pak could have left to found them a LONG time before. Another possibility: the key to growing tree-of-life may have been discovered on the ringworld. ------------------------------ Subject: Protectors and Home From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Michael Johnson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 85 13:40:22 EDT I seem to recall that in "The Ringworld Engineers" Louis Wu makes a remark (mentally or verbally) about Home having been recently re-colonized. Michael Johnson ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!srt@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: generation ships Date: 13 Aug 85 02:44:47 GMT Don't know if this has been mentioned yet or not, but _Rendevous_With_Rama_ fits into the generation ship category. Sort of... -- Scott The Ramans do everything in threes... Can we expect a trilogy, then? ------------------------------ From: tekecs!waltt@topaz.arpa (Walt Tucker) Subject: Re: SF in music (Stevie Nicks) Date: 14 Aug 85 21:20:07 GMT > From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >> From: romkey@mit-borax (John L. Romkey) >> And Fleetwood Mac's (Stevie Nicks's) song "Rhiannon" is supposed >> to be about a Welsh (Welch?) witch. Anybody know if Stevie's >> still around? > > While it's true that the name Rhiannon is a reference from Welsh > myth, the lyrics from "Rhiannon" don't seem to me to be about > such. Check out the "Fleetwood Mac Live" album (released following the Tusk tour). On the live album, there is a version of Rhiannon that Fleetwood Mac recorded in London. As is the custom with many live albums, the performers do some sort of introduction to the song. Over the opening chords of Rhiannon, Stevie Nicks says: "This is a song...(small pause)...about a Welsh Witch" (background noise of crowd fades up then down... then "Rhiannon rings like bells in the night, etc, etc, .... .... dreams unwind, love's a state of mind, etc, etc...) Case closed. Incidently, this version of Rhiannon is longer than the studio version, and contains some other lyrics not heard on the original. Actually, I like the live version better. -- Walt Tucker Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ From: kovacs!jim@topaz.arpa (jim) Subject: Re: Night Gallery Date: 12 Aug 85 05:27:52 GMT >> From: Will Duquette >> The one movie/TV induced fear that I can honestly say scared the >> hell out of me came from "Night Gallery." the storyline involved >> a grotesque little doll that belonged to a little girl.... > Actually, this was an episode of the Twilight Zone starring Telly > Savalas (bald even then) as the little girl's father. The doll > (and also, I think, the episode) was named "Talking Tina"... The Twilight Zone title is "Living Doll". The doll, "Talky Tina", only threatens Erich Streator (Savalas) when no one else is around. When he throws the doll in the garbage for the first time, it escapes and phones him with a death threat. He tries to burn the doll, then tries to saw off its head; both attempts fail. The wife, Annabelle, thinking poor Erich has lost his mind, plans to take her daughter Christie and leave him. Erich, who now thinks maybe he *is* going insane, decides to give the doll back to his step-daughter. But late that night, he trips on the doll and falls down the stairs to his death. The ending: Annabelle rushes to him and then picks up the doll. It says: "My name is Talky Tina, *and you'd better be nice to me!*" PS. - The voice of "Talky Tina" was that of June Foray, who also did "Rocky the Flying Squirrel". -Jim- ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 1985 12:16:43 EDT (Fri) From: Dan Hoey Subject: Star Trek stamp FYI, from Bob Levey's Washington, in The Washington Post, 15 August 85. Let me level with you. ``Star Trek'' does not make my blood race. But for others, it's more than a TV show. It's a vision of the future. And now it may become a commemorative postage stamp. Carolee C. Davis of Derwood, Md., is spearheading a drive to get the Postal Service to issue a stamp in 1986 marking the 20th anniversary of S.T. If you'd like to hop aboard Carolee's bandwagon, write to: U.S. Postal Service, Philatelic Sales Division, Washington, D.C., 20625-6300. Dan Hoey ------------------------------ From: convexs!ayers@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Who's out there ... Date: 14 Aug 85 13:49:00 GMT LYang.es@Xerox.ARPA writes: >Even if there was life of other forms, we may not be able to >communicate with any of them. We might as well be alone. Since there is strong evidence that we can't even communicate with each other (see "The History of Garbage -- USENET in the Making") when we share a common language, cultural background, basic education, etc. -- that shouldn't be overly surprising. And for real depression: try locking two politicians from opposing countries in a room together and see how much "communication" gets accomplished. [Even better: read the "local" papers in each country after the politicians return to see how well they understood what the other was saying...] Marvin ------------------------------ From: hou2g!scott@topaz.arpa (Racer X) Subject: Re: Ken Moreau, Spider Robinson, Art, Helen Keller, and Me Date: 15 Aug 85 15:17:52 GMT Oh, for cryin' out loud! Why don't you get off you goddamn soapbox, you pompous jerk. Or is it too much to lower yourself to the level of us "barbaric", "uneducated" peons? There is a clear difference between "art" and a "good read". It lies in the fact that a good read is something judged by *the reader*, according to *his/her* tastes. "Art" is too often determined by a bunch of egocentric idiots who think they know it all because they were "educated" (by a similar bunch of idiots, naturally). What the hell is art, anyway? It's usually a COMPLETELY ARBITRARY evaluation, and as such, meaningless. Art, as you seem to espouse it, differs little from the "gurus" who decide (for the world, or at least those foolhardy enough to pay attention) what colors and fashions will be "in" two years from now. Scott J. Berry ------------------------------ From: teklabs!donch@topaz.arpa (Don Chitwood) Subject: Black Holes and Time Date: 14 Aug 85 23:13:21 GMT I've recently been reading several SF books on black holes and their local physical properties when this wild thought struck me. Namely, as Larry Niven and others point out, the gravity well around a black hole can produce tidal effects in objects. Fine. Carry the effects of the black hole a little farther, such as in Frederick Pohl's Heechee Chronicles series where time slows increasingly with gravitational intensity. Ahhhh. Now we get to it: what about "time tides"? (An inappropriate description, perhaps, but it rolls off the tongue nicely.) If you/(the object of your choice) are close enough to the black hole so that the gravity gradient is very steep, then, say you extend your left arm toward the black hole (assuming it doesn't rip off) and your right arm radially away from the hole, wrist-watches on each arm would show different times, indeed they would be running at different rates. The philosophical question then becomes, what happens to a body that experiences different time rates at different locations? Your left hand stays relatively young, while the right gets grey with age (not to mention that all the blood leaves your right hand and swells up the left; I'm ignoring such troublesome details). Perhaps the question is: what is the physical effect of an accelerating, localized "time field". Am I missing something basic here? Is there any reference to this aspect of black holes in the SF literature? Don Chitwood Teklabs Tektronix, Inc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 85 22:41:42 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Non carbon based life Forward's "Dragon's Egg" concerns beings made of neutronium and/or degenerate matter. Stapledon's "Star Maker" includes (among other things) beings that are stars, and beings that are galaxies. I believe that this is the first mention of such things (1937). This is also the book in which 'Dyson' spheres are first mentioned. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@nosc.ARPA@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: "Cute" Ewoks Date: 17 Aug 85 09:21:08 GMT mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) writes: >The Ewoks had to prepare for walkers emerging from the installation >in any direction, unless they were to rely on really incredible >luck. Alternatively, the Ewoks can lead their pursuers where they want them to go, and are seen doing so in the film. The Indians used this tactic against the army. The British fell victim to it in Africa more than once. >Second, note that the defenses were specifically oriented to >fighting the Imperials. As I said in my message, I agree with the idea that the Imperials had already been a problem for the Ewoks. Even if the particular traps we saw were not already in place, the concepts had probably been around for some weeks or months. The bugs had already been worked out of the system. >Finally, I think you underestimate the difficulty of building some >of these things with primitive tools. Consider medieval siege >engines, which took weeks to build with better tools. A pile of >logs (one of the simpler devices) seems trivial, but it must be set >up to be stable until you are ready to use it, then go rolling >quickly in the proper direction when released. I would expect a >modern army to take at least a day or two to get it right. None of the assemblies shown in the film were nearly as complicated as a siege engine. Knowing the concept in advance, I have no doubt that a U.S. Navy Seabee battalion could duplicate either in just a few hours, even if restricted to hand tools. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Aug 85 1142-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #331 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 19 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 331 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Niven & Robinson & Wyndham, Films - Andromeda Strain (2 msgs) & The Fantastic Voyage, Television - Saturday Morning Cartoons, Miscellaneous - Magic vs Technology & Critics (2 msgs) & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcsaic!randy@topaz.arpa (randy groves) Subject: Re: Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren Date: 14 Aug 85 16:31:45 GMT jagardner@watmath.UUCP (Jim Gardner) writes: >Most people don't find Dhalgren their cup of tea, and I can >certainly understand that. However, Delany can write the socks off >practically any other modern writer, even when you hate his >material. It's well worth anyone's while to go to the library and >take out Dhalgren to see if you like it. I heartily agree. It's been some time since I read Dhalgren or any Delany, but I can remember being involved and taken to a place that I did not fully understand, but could identify with at some gut level that was very striking. Some of the scenes and occurrences in Dhalgren also correspond to a mind operating in an expanded, altered state. randy groves ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!randy ------------------------------ From: garfield!dave@topaz.arpa (David Janes) Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors Date: 12 Aug 85 16:13:05 GMT godwin@uci-icse (Dave Godwin) writes: > Bigger question, though. This one has always bothered me > about Niven's universe. What the heck happens to Home after the > Protectors left to beat off the Pak ? Obviously, our guys win, > because even by Louis Wu's time, Pak were unknown. But > whathappens to Home itself, with all that Tree-Of-Life virus > floating in the atmosphere ? It bugs me. Probably the remaining human Pak removed the Tree-Of-Life virus from the atmosphere. They had to remove all the destroyed 'cities', etc. also because this would let normal humans know about thier existence (it would have been mentioned if the ruins had been later found.) I believe it is mentioned in one of the _Ringworld_ books that Louis Wu had been on Home for some reason or another (i.e. Home was resettled.) dave UUCP: {utcsri,ihnp4,allegra,mcvax}!garfield!dave INTERNET: dave@garfield.uucp CDNNET: dave@garfield.mun.cdn ------------------------------ Date: Sat 17 Aug 85 22:05:31-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Spider Robinson Mr Robinson's longer and more discursive reviews can be found in back numbers (there are no other numbers) of Destinies magazine, under the title "Spider vs. the hax of Sol III". One word of authentic text is worth a pile of commentary, but at least let me impose upon your patience to say that, for me, one of Spider's more endearing qualities is that he doesn't tell me what I ought to like. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: John Wyndham detective novels--wanted Date: 16 Aug 85 15:13:13 GMT > From: cdstar!saltiel > I have read all of Wyndham's Science Fiction(Day_of_the_Trifids, > The_Chrysalids, etc.,) or all that I know exists. He is unusual in > that genre, in that he write prose suburbly, (or did when he was > alive.) That's not as unusual as you might think, but I'll let it pass. > He has also authored a number of detective novels that are all out > of print. Can anyone identify these works and where I might find > them in any condition?? Allen J. Hubin's CRIME FICTION, 1749-1980: A COMPREHENSIVE BIBLIOGRAPHY (New York: Garland, 1984), which is without question the best such work in the mystery field, only lists one detective novel by John Wyndham (real name: John Wyndham Parkes Lucas Beynon Harris) --- FOUL PLAY SUSPECTED, under the by-line John Beynon. It was published by Newnes in 1935. Since Hubin is in the habit of listing both the first US *and* first UK edition of a book, it's unlikely that there was ever an American edition. Finding it might prove difficult in the US. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain question Date: 17 Aug 85 01:20:50 GMT The difference is that although there are waldos, etc., there is still some chance of contamination through a faulty seal, etc. Why does a surgeon scrub his/her hands before an operation? He/She is just going to put gloves on on top of them anyway. :-) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.arpa (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain question Date: 14 Aug 85 15:37:10 GMT judith@proper.UUCP (judith) writes: >I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began >to wonder about this recently. As the scientists who are to >investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab >complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected, >weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY clean >when they get to the lowest level. > >What for? > >They never interact with anything important except through waldos >and other interfaces built to eliminate contact, so what's the >difference? The part of the installation outside the isolation chamber has neato detectors that shoot off alarms if they find any micro-organisms in the air. This is a reasonable precaution, considering that the micro-organisms may be nasty. To avoid false alarms, all benign micro-organisms were removed from all personnel going to that level. (Since any alarm started the countdown on a nuke, they were justifiably concerned about avoiding false ones.) Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: Inconsistency in "The Fantastic Voyage"??? Date: 16 Aug 85 04:00:00 GMT If you think it's bad leaving a submarine inside the guy (people say that the white cell left the body with the crew) there is something far worse. The miniturization is done as a two stage process. First the sub is shrunk, and then it's put in a 50 gallon syringe which is further shrunk. When that expands, boy is the patient going to need to go to the bathroom like you wouldn't believe! Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ From: utai!wjr@topaz.arpa (William Rucklidge) Subject: Re: Ewoks and NutraSweet (really saturday morning SW) Date: 14 Aug 85 14:14:26 GMT rubin@mtuxn.UUCP (M.RUBIN) writes: > Two Saturday morning cartoons called "Droids" and "Ewoks" > respectively are scheduled for this fall (NBC, around 9AM, > replacing "Mighty Orbots", I think). Does anybody know whether > they will be animated by Lucasfilm or by some random > hanna-barbarians? From what I have heard, the animation for these shows is being done by Nelvana, a Toronto-based animation studio, who did (I believe) the Care Bear movie. Nelvana have also made a couple of animated specials for television: "Rome-0 and Julie-8" (a robot love story... who coulda guessed) and "Take Me Up to the Ball Game" (interstellar baseball). William Rucklidge University of Toronto UUCP {ihnp4 utzoo decwrl uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!wjr CSNet wjr@toronto BITNET wjr at utoronto ------------------------------ Subject: Magic vs technology From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Michael Johnson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 85 13:42:21 EDT In an earlier posting I remarked that I thought Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" was a good example of the magic vs technology theme. I think maybe a little clarification is in order. The magic in this case is that of the priests and priestesses of the Druidic religion, centered around (and personified by) Morgan and the Isle of Avalon. The technology is a little more subtle. What seems to be primitive to you and me was in its day the highpoint of technological accomplishment. In the setting of "Mists of Avalon" the technology is represented by Arthur and Launcelot. Arthur is very much a temporal figure. He is (in the context of the story) responsible for the destruction of the old magic, by letting the Romans and their technology into the primitive, magical kingdom of ancient Briton. Arthur is shown as turning away from the old ways to embrace the new ones, leaving behind the magical power to gain the technological power which is the only way he can see to save his kingdom from chaos. There is also a conflict between Christianity (represented by Guinevere) and the Druidic religion. Christianity in this case goes hand in hand with the technology, since both have their roots in the Roman empire. Too little sleep and too much to do, so I will now quietly fade off into the sunset... michael johnson ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Ken Moreau, Spider Robinson, Art, Helen Keller, and Me Date: 17 Aug 85 08:37:30 GMT dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes: >>I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you >>whether it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read". To >>me this indicates that the two concepts are orthogonal, and have >>nothing to do with each other. Thank you, I will ignore both >>*ART* and critics who talk about *ART* because I have found this >>bias to be pretentious, boring, unapproachable, and generally >>gives me no pleasure. >> [KEN MOREAU] There are four kinds of writing: writing that was meant to be entertaining, and is, but can also be classified as Art (e.g., Shakespeare); writing that was meant to be entertaining, and is nothing more; writing that was meant to be Art, and succeeds, but can also be read and enjoyed at some lower level; and writing that was meant to be Art to the exclusion of it possibly be entertaining. The latter seems to fit your last sentence well. >> Spider Robinson... (the sound of spitting in derision and disgust) . . . has written some light SF that is meant to be entertaining, and nothing more. It will certainly be forgotten fifty years after he's dead. The same can be said of the man who built my house. Not all of us build pyramids, nor should all of us. Robinson's also written some stories that, while entertaining, also have the "quality" that we're calling "Art" here. Every single one of these stories has been flawed, some more seriously than others. Robinson has some very strong story telling skills, but he could be a much better writer. I keep hoping he'll improve. > To ignore art because it gives no pleasure is synonomous with > ignoring edu> cation because it gives no money. A valid point . . . > A backward, Luddite, barbarian attitude which makes me wonder how > anyone who ever held this belief ever got the drive and motivation > to learn how to read. . . . but did you ever hear the phrase, "You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar"? There's a difference between literary criticism and "a severe and unfavorable judgement" (Funk and Wagnalls). Saying that everyone who disagrees with you is a jerk is less likely to make a point than to make enemies (or at least to have people judge your personality rather than your argument). > This is not idle electronic banter, I agree. "Rambling" is a more appropriate word than "banter". > How many "enjoyable" works have allowed you or forced you to walk > a mile in another man's shoes ("Soul On Ice"), or understand the > nature of death ("The Death Of Ivan Ilych"), or feel outrage at > terrible injustice ("Les Miserables"), or come face to face with > home and family ("The Last Picture Show"), or realize that > politics affects individuals as well as societies ("A Tale Of Two > Cities"), to see the depths of depravity and hatred of self > ("Notes From Underground", "In The Belly Of The Beast", "Heart Of > Darkness"), to internalize and gain some knowledge of the human > condition? Do you want a list? Fiction can be "entertaining" in some sense and still do all those things. > Remain an intellectual and artistic Helen Keller - but remember > that she, who had so little ability to appreciate greatness and > art and love and life, struggled her entire life to appreciate > those very things which you and Mr. Robinson and so many others of > your ilk choose to downgrade and spit upon and despise. I shake > my head in wonder and awe at the power of ignorance and the > majesty of barbarianism. And I wish that I did not shake my head > so often, or so long. Davis Tucker I like that statement. I repeated it because it's stronger out of context, the context being a sixty line flame. I'll say something about reviews vs. criticism in a separate article. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.arpa (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: reviews vs. criticism Date: 17 Aug 85 09:18:49 GMT All flaming aside, let me take a crack at what I think these two are, or should be. A review should get people interested in a story, and say what people are likely to enjoy it (or not). This means more than "if you liked..." I thought Sheffield's latest novel was trash, but I loaned it to someone who likes ideas. (He refused to accept what I thought was the premise of the story, because said premise is silly, and thus was less than impressed by the ideas.) The key word here is "enjoyment". This is *not* the same as "mindless enjoyment"; I'm sure that, in some important sense of the word, Davis Tucker "enjoyed" reading Delany's TITAN. (So did I; I had a heck of a sense of accomplishment when I'd finished it.) The biggest weakness is losing track of objectivity ("FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH is the SF movie I enjoyed the most, so I think you'll like it, too.") Criticism should be an evaluation of the "quality" of a story. (For a good description of "quality", see ZEN AND THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE. Really.) Over the years, critics have found patterns in good and bad stories, and can describe new work in terms of those patterns. Some critics, alas, lose track of the importance of quality, and try to shoehorn round stories into square descriptions. Anyone care to criticize (not review) these opinions? Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: advanced races Date: 12 Aug 85 19:17:35 GMT >From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA > Aliens will be looking for something that is attractive to them, >based on their frame of reference; there is no assurance whatever >that their motivations will make any sense to us. Our primary motivation is our desire to survive -- ourselves and our families, primarily; larger groupings to a lesser extent. Love, hate, fear, and most other emotions are explainable thereby. This desire is an inevitable consequence of evolutionary development. (Flames to net.origins, please.) Thus there is every reason to expect aliens to share it. Less obvious are things like religion. There are survival-related reasons for the development of religion, but it is not clear how much they relate to details of our development. Aliens might have some such institution which would lead them to behavior patterns which seemed very bizarre to us. But survival is a quite sufficient reason to colonize other stellar systems, so it is the most likely one. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Aug 85 1036-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #332 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 20 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 332 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Harrison & MacCaffrey & Niven & Zelazny, Films - Fantastic Voyage & Andromeda Strain & The Return of the Living Dead, Miscellaneous - Antimatter Girls (2 msgs) & Languages & Types of Magic & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mcgill-vision!mouse@topaz.arpa (der Mouse) Subject: Re: Bring on the Aliens (and group minds) Date: 16 Aug 85 04:25:30 GMT > There's a short story by Arthur Clarke (don't remember what it's > called, but I think it's in SENTINEL) which suggests that the > reason that we haven't been contacted yet is that we evolved so > durn fast! *** SPOILER FOR "RESCUE PARTY" STORY *** I have it in the NINE BILLION NAMES OF GOD collection. It is called RESCUE PARTY and is indeed a good story. By the way, this story also belongs in the discussion which was going on recently about group minds in SF. The Paladorians are one of the more interesting group minds I've read of. "....and on two historic occasions the billions of cells of the entire Paladorian consciousness had been welded together to deal with emergencies that threatened the race." der Mouse {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse philabs!micomvax!musocs!mcgill-vision!mouse ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: The Stainless Steel Rat (Really Deathworld) Date: 16 Aug 85 13:37:38 GMT If you like the Stainless Steel Rat you'll probably also enjoy Harrison's Deathworld stories, which consist of three novels and a short story, that I know of. The main character, Jason DinAlt, is similar to Slippery Jim. I liked Deathworld III best of the series. Joel ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 85 05:14:44 GMT From: kdale @ MINET-VHN-EM Subject: McCaffrey >And McCaffrey isn't an Irish name, is it? Sounds more scottish. I Yes, it is Irish and yes, it sound Scottish. The Scottish spelling would be MacCaffrey. Irish names aren't just O'somethings (like mine used to be - O'Dale), but are also McSomething, as well as just Something. It is confusing. When I was tracing my roots, I got confused all right -- my middle name is as Scottish as they come and my great-grandfather was an original O'Dale from Ireland. I could always use MacRae O'Dale as a pen name, for shock value... Keith M. Dale (kdale@minet-vhn-em) BBN Comm Corp Stuttgart, W. Germany ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Re: Protectors Date: 17 Aug 85 14:43:50 GMT > From: Peter Alfke > How could Beowulf Sheaffer become a protector (in "Down In > Flames") if he was well over 200 years old? Simple. Boosterspice > kept his physical age down to 30 or so. Nope. Remember, Louis Wu was too old, and he had been on Boosterspice for 200 years. Remember too that Ringworld youth drug conflicted with boosterspice, ane Halrloprilallar died from the conflict. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 18 Aug 1985 11:09:32-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: Trumps of Doom -- Rave Review A Review of Trumps of Doom by Roger Zelazny POSSIBLY INTERPRETABLE AS MINOR SPOILER -- A WARNING!! Merlin, son of Corwin, Prince of Amber, lived a secluded, quiet life as a computer engineer in the Shadowland, Earth. Secretly, he designs a powerful tool for the Amberites, called "Ghostwheel." His routine existence is only interrupted once a year, on April 30, when an attempt is always made on his life. When this vicious cycle leads to the death of a lady friend, the coincidences begin to take on new meanings. Merlin leaves his home and, together with his good friend, Luke, he begins to search for the identity of his hidden assailant. Merlin's problems multiply when he is recalled to Amber and learns that his family, members of the House of Amber, are being attacked by unknown forces. Murder and intrigue have never been so mysteriously cloaked as in the Chronicles of Amber. Merlin is beset by danger and travail in this fast-paced novel that opens up a new era in the Amber Chronicles, and leaves you wanting more... ------------------------------ Date: 18 Aug 1985 3:03:55 GMT (Sunday) From: Keith Dale Subject: Fantastic Voyage fix Steven Litvintchouk wrote: >The problem with "Fantastic Voyage" is that they could never figure >out a consistent relationship between the principle of >miniaturization and the conservation of mass. How about this as an attempt at an explanation? As a preface, though, if you're going to swallow the fact of miniaturization, you're going to have to accept some pretty flaky assumptions (I mean, it's got to be on a par with "Beam me up, Scotty!"). 1. The miniaturization process begins with setting up an homogeneous field around the object(s) to be mini'ed. What kind of field? Well, a field that reacts in equal force or amount to all points within it. So, Flaky Assumption #1 is: this field does not behave according to the inverse square rule. 2. Next, an effect of the field is to reduce energy within it's influence by directly converting mass to energy. The energy released is used to sustain the field. Due to the nature of the field, no whole unit of matter is converted to energy, but just a part. The nature of the unit of matter is not changed (F.A.#2) and it reduces size in proportion to the amount of matter that was converted. 3. The mass conversion acts on all matter within the field equally, so everything is reduced by the same amount. 4. When you're as small as you want to be, turn off the field. 5. Since an abnormality in the Grand Scheme of Things exists (a proton that *is* a proton, but doesn't have the mass that a proton *should*), physical laws begin to reassert themselves as soon as the field is shut off. All miniaturized matter attempts to regain normality by gaining energy that will be somehow converted back to matter. How? I don't know - I've never had the chance to interview a scrawny proton before. This is definitely F.A.#3. 6. Assuming that 5. will occur, then we might as well assume that the rate of energy reconversion is rapid but requires a threshhold point to be reached before matter "grows". Where does this matter get the energy? From the immediate surroundings and according to the inverse square rule; however, this would wreak havoc with those surroundings, not to mention the patient! So: 7. Another field is set up that provides a source of energy that is specific to miniaturized matter (F.A.#4). Surrounding normal matter is not affected, and you have a definite time limit on how long you can stay small before the mass you're gaining becomes a problem (say, for the patient that you're "inhabiting"). When you exit the patient, the juice can be turned up so that you grow more rapidly. There, that's it. Please realize, folks, that this isn't meant to be an outline on How to Get Small. It's just one way of explaining miniaturization and the conservation of energy, given that something as improbable as miniaturization is required, in a manner that seems logical. Turn the flames on and have fun with it! BTW, the whole time I was writing this, a line from ST2:TWoK kept screaming in my head - "Jim, you proceed from a false assumption." Don't I know it! Keith M. Dale (kdale@minet-vhn-em) BBN Comm Corp Stuttgart, W. Germany ------------------------------ From: ihuxi!okie@topaz.arpa (Cobb) Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain question Date: 14 Aug 85 13:39:32 GMT > I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began > to wonder about this recently. As the scientists who are to > investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab > complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected, > weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY > clean when they get to the lowest level. > > What for? > > They never interact with anything important except through waldos > and other interfaces built to eliminate contact, so what's the > difference? The idea is to prevent any *possibility* of contaminating the organism to be studied/developed. People still have to handle equipment; gaskets break; even the best isolation systems can break down from time to time. If that happens, there's much less chance of contaminating the organism from a clean body than a (relatively speaking) dirty one. Also, the defense barriers between organisms being studied and the people studying them don't have to be as elaborate when the body is cleaner (although the Andromeda Strain seems to belie that principle). B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie ------------------------------ Date: Sun 18 Aug 85 01:04:50-EDT From: Michael Eisenberg Subject: The Return of the Living Dead - a review THE RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD (film review) Nanoreview: C'mon, Dead! Microreview: Extremely good grotesque weird movie. Review: This is a Living Dead movie for all of us -- or at least all of us who can watch heads of corpses getting swatted off and people's brains being bitten out and so forth. None of that portentous self-important "you-think-this-is-a-cheap-horror- movie-but-it's-really-life" stuff that George Romero dishes out. This is Working Man's Dead at their most relentless. The movie, written and directed by Dan O'Bannon (I believe he wrote "Alien" and one of the eerier segments of the cartoon "Heavy Metal"), manages to walk the very fine line between gross-out humor and genuine horror. I won't spoil it by giving away the whole story; suffice it to say that what begins with a chemical accident ends with a cemetary full of zombies springing to life and terrorizing a medical-supplies house and a group of punks. Part of what makes the movie so successful at being both funny and scary is the surprisingly high quality of the acting: there is a minimum of mugging for laughs, and some of the characters have an almost tragic side to them. The young actors playing the punks are especially believable, and in one scene even the zombies themselves miraculously achieve a sort of poignancy. The special effects, while not remarkable, are effective enough, and there are images of dead creatures running rampant which can really knock your socks off through sheer cleverness, if not technical expertise. Anyway, I don't mean to make this sound like "The Bicycle Thief" or anything, but it really is one of the better horror films in recent memory. I give it a 7.5 out of 10. Mike Eisenberg (DUCK@MIT-OZ) ------------------------------ From: mcgill-vision!mouse@topaz.arpa (der Mouse) Subject: Antimatter girls Date: 13 Aug 85 21:53:30 GMT Let's postulate an antimatter girl. Question: How do we get this girl into an environment where a matter boy can possibly kiss her without liberating that 1.22E28 watts in the process (through contact with air, floor, etc)? Remember, it doesn't take a duplicate of a molecule to explode this way. Each particle will go as soon as it touches its antiparticle -- and there are plenty of anti-{electron, proton, neutron, etc}s making up our whole environment. Quite a power source, yes. As I recall, a few pounds of antimatter was enough to run the USS Enterprise, which must draw quite a lot of juice. der Mouse CVaRL, McGill University ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Antimatter girls. Date: 18 Aug 85 01:06:53 GMT >From: RPS385%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jeffrey Smith) > >To be perfectly truthfull, if an antimatter girl and a >matter boy even touched (kissed, held hands) the explosion >would liberate 1.22 * 10**28 watts of energy. They say in the film MAN WHO WOULD BE KING that if a human girl kissed a god she will go up in a puff of flame -- "T-zing!" Clearly this proves that what the Khafiris thought were ancient gods were really anti-matter aliens. Ancient Astronauts... ("they practically owned South America!"-- Carpenter's THE THING) Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mtuxn!rubin@topaz.arpa (M.RUBIN) Subject: Query on language evolution Date: 17 Aug 85 02:06:17 GMT For an SF story I'm working on, I would like to find references on how the environment affects languages (e.g. how/why did the Eskimos develop all those words for snow?) and how dialects and languages form in isolated groups of people. The story concerns some colonists who have been out of contact with Earth for a few centuries. Please reply by mail to: {ihnp4, rest of AT&T}!mtuxn!newtech!rubin ------------------------------ From: busch!mte@topaz.arpa (Moshe Eliovson) Subject: Poll: Which type of magic is your favorite? Date: 18 Aug 85 03:01:42 GMT I only got a limited response to my query poll regarding 'which type of magic you prefer ?': The results tended to point in favor of all types of magic, but leaning towards pure ability. Namely the adept. I'd like to get a broader spectrum of opinions so please drop me a note with your selection- limit yourself. Say, "If I had to pick only one (1) type which would I choose?" Send me the number you choose, and, your favorite selection dealing with that type of magic. Short stories should indicate which collection or magazine they're from. The choices are: 1. Spells/Artifacts ex- Jack Vance 2. Adept Jack of Shadows, Donaldson, 3. objective Explain your idea of magic 4. Summoning/Binding - limiting Master of the Five Magic 5. SF The Runestaff 6. Psionics Amber, Jhereg, Julian May 7. All inclusive 8. Other - specify Moshe Eliovson {allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive. Date: 17 Aug 85 14:34:42 GMT > That fate would likely await us also. Their culture would > undoubtedly be much different from ours, and their technology > would be suited to their culture. For us to thus take advantage of > their advanced goodies, a dramatic cultural upheaval would be > required. I'd put up with that to get our hands on the technology. Whether we get it from them or develop it ourselves we'd end up with the same rearrangement of our society (ever hear of "future shock"? It's just as real as "culture shock"), so why not do without the waiting period? So what if we end up with a society like theirs? Chances are we would have anyway. I want to visit Beta Lyrae and I'm not going to hang around long enough for us to develop a stardrive. > Does anyone know of any Sci-fi that deals with this issue? Most > I've read runs along these lines; > > 1) The E.T. type- benevolent cuddly aliens 2) The Childhood's End > type- powerful saviors 3) War of the Worlds type- violent > encounters 4) The Janissaries- slavers Well, in this case it's the humans coming from space, but how about Tanith Lee's new book? Also, "High Yield Bondage" by someone I misremember... and Niven's "Leshy circuit" stories. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Aug 85 1124-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #333 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 20 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 333 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Niven (2 msgs) & Bar Stories, Films - Andromeda Strain, Miscellanous - Ewoks & Critics & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Dahlgraney Date: 18 Aug 85 15:34:50 EDT (Sun) From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA I think you'll like Delany if you like to watch words be put together in interesting ways. This should not be surprising from an author with numerous titles like ``Time considered as a helix of semi-precious stones'' and ``Stars in my pocket like grains of sand''. Delany's books are the kind that you read to be reading, where the act of reading itself is a pleasure, yet where nothing much really happens, and you may not really like the people to whom it's happening, anyway... Dahlgren, Nova, and Triton all have this in common, as does ``Stars in my pocket like grains of sand.'' Babel-17 is also well written, but is rather conventional (it has a plot and hackneyed stuff like that) (interesting, all the same, and I suspect it's most likely his most approachable book). I thought ``The Einstein Intersection'' read like the first novel it was (nonetheless, not a bad bit of writing for a 17-year-old kid). Not to be missed are Delany's short-story collections: ``Drift-glass'' is the name of one, I can't remember the title of the other (``Empire Star'' perhaps?). Most of his short-stories are pretty conventional, with plot and interesting characters, and not so much Bizarre Sex, yet they retain his wonderful prose. Good Reads in all senses of the words. Try his stories before you give up on him completely. Another thing that Delany does very well is imagining new societies and the way they work. As far as I'm concerned, Triton only works as a travelogue describing the politics of the Jovian moons (coterminous governments which you select every four years. Once you've selected a government, your stuck with it until the next election, but your neighbors aren't, necessarily, since your neighbors can choose their own government, different from yours.) The writing style is typical Delany sacher-torte prose, but the character is pretty dull and whining, so despite the interesting politics and the rich prose, I vote for Triton as my ``least likely to be re-read'' of Delany's books. Dahlgren describes New York City during a garbage strike, or maybe Bellona is a city in Pynchon's Zone in Gravity's Rainbow (anyone who stops reading Gravity's Rainbow before they get to Byron the Immortal Light Bulb deserves what they're getting), or Tarkovsky's Zone from Stalker, or even Troy after the gift horse has opened its mouth. Turning and turning in the widening gyre, the falcon cannot hear the falconer; things fall apart, the center cannot hold: mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. Dahlgren is the notes of the set designer for Bladerunner. Someone sparked all this by asking if anything ever happened in Dahlgren. Well, yes. Lots of things happen. About three or four hundred things happen on every page. Weren't you paying attention? Just about every single word in Dahlgren is an event in itself. Unfortunately, most of the words don't seem to be describing anything. I'm glad you brought it up, though, because since then lots of people have mentioned what they saw in the book, and now I'm eager to re-read it with these new ideas. Why do you care that Dahlgren never explains where it's going when the mere act of getting there has more in it than you can possibly absorb? ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Pak Protectors Date: 17 Aug 85 14:40:54 GMT > In my copy of PROTECTOR it is stated that the Pak are mostly dumb > browsers and couldn't be dangerous to ANYONE. . . hence the Pak > Protector, who WAS. The Protectors on Home originally fought to > protect ``their'' Pak (each Pak The protecters on "Pak", you mean. The protectors on "Home" were human protectors. > ``clan'' had its own Protector(s)); but the Pak on Home (the ONLY > Pak, short of the attempted colonization of some world way out in > the spiral arms. . .) were dead. Not in protector. > Or did I totally mis-read the first part of PROTECTOR? Probably you misread the whole of protector. The only breeders that died in the first part were Phsstpok's own clan. The rest were alive & well. Actually we know what happened to Pak and to Truesdale's fleet! They were caught in the Core explosion. Remember they only had slow sublight ramjets, so by the time they was the light (har) it was too late. Of course this conflicts with Down in Flames, but in that case tha Tnuctipun ate them. Peter da Silva (the mad Australian werewolf) UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ Date: 19 Aug 85 11:15:32 PDT (Monday) From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Fate of the Protectors of Home As I remember the story, (and this may be faulty) the Home Protectors were going off to fight the Pak, at the speed of light. At that time the Puppeteer's had not sold the secret of going faster than the speed of light yet. So the Home Protectors spent two hundred years traveling to fight the Pak, hopefully beat the Pak, and then another two hundred years to come back. This would explain the lack of interaction between the Home Protectors and the human race. Maybe the next story will be about how thousands of Home Protectors deal with the human race? Henry III ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.arpa (richardt) Subject: Bar Stories Primaevil Date: 14 Aug 85 01:56:00 GMT Sometimes I have to have restrain myself when reading net.sf-lovers. For example, with Bar/Club stories, Spider Robinson, De Pratt, and many others have been mentioned. What about that Great Master Of SF, Isaac Asimov??? Doesn't anyone remember the Black Widower's!!!!!!!! orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ From: nrcvax!terry@topaz.arpa (Terry Grevstad) Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain question Date: 15 Aug 85 19:34:44 GMT judith@proper.UUCP (judith) says: >I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began >to wonder about this recently. As the scientists who are to >investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab >complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected, >weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY clean >when they get to the lowest level. > >What for? > >They never interact with anything important except through waldos >and other interfaces built to eliminate contact, so what's the >difference? Not only that, but I have it on good authority (various doctors and nurses) that if they went through all that high level disinfecting they would have been very dead. Especially the part where they burn off the top layer of skin. That much burning over the entire body would probably kill anything. Terry Grevstad Network Research Corporation {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry ------------------------------ From: crash!bnw@nosc.ARPA@topaz.arpa Subject: Ewoks and victory Date: 19 Aug 85 08:12:10 GMT _Bob writes: >One thing that bothered me about the Ewok victory: Guerrillas >(never) finally defeat regulars without the assistance of an allied >regular force. Aside from English and French colonial history being full of examples to the contrary, remember that the Ewoks were not fighting alone. There was a squad of Rebel troops and a Wookie in a Scoutwalker. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.arpa (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Ken Moreau, Spider Robinson, Art, Helen Keller, and Me Date: 18 Aug 85 01:02:42 GMT I promised myself long ago that I'd simply ignore Davis and his holier than thou anti-SF attitudes (Davis, if you hate SF half as much as the stuff you write implies, why do you bother reading this newsgroup? Are you trying to convert us with this highbrow proselytizing, or are you simply masochistic? Hmm... On second thought, considering the volumes you pour out at us, maybe you're sadistic.... :-|). Unfortunately, Davis has made some comments that just cry out to be beaten into the pulp they ought to have been written on... dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes: >>I applaud Spider Robinsons comment that "A critic tells you >>whether it is *ART*, a reviewer tells you if its a good read". >Spider Robinson... (the sound of spitting in derision and disgust) >knows absolutely nothing, or next to nothing, about being a >reviewer, as he has so amply demonstrated in his review columns, >and even less about being a critic. Gene Shalit gives more depth; >Rona Barret gives more detail; These is fighting words. Choice of weapons: copies of "battleship earth" at 20 paces... I was reading Spider's reviews religiously back in the late, lamented Galaxy magazine, and he knows the genre quite thoroughly. He knows what is good writing, and he burns the bad writing (a VERY fitting end for most of those books) and he has a good grasp for what his audience is looking for. I think his columns got a little soft when he was working in Analog, but even he admitted that he simply didn't have the time to do it right (and finally stopped the columns because of it). You seem to make the continuing misassumption that a "CRITIC" (underlined three times) is there to tell me what I "ought" to be reading. Well, I don't have a helluva lot of time to read what I "ought" to be reading. I look for a reviewer that can tell me what to avoid and what I'm going to want to read, since I simply don't have time to wade through the trash to find what I'm looking for. I simply don't always WANT to read the sort of stuff I "ought" to be reading, since reading for me is a relaxation tool. Education or enlightenment are the only reasons to open a book, no matter how much you might wish otherwise. >To you and Spider Robinson (author of such art as "Harry Callahan's >Crossroad Five-Guys-In-A-Bar-Trade-Stupid-Puns-And-Act-Superior-And- >Incredibly-Sophomoric"), it is an insult. Ah, the crux of the problem. You have no sense of humor... Not everybody can be a Kafka, Davis. Fortunately, or the suicide rate would be MUCH higher than it is now. >Art and a "good read" may have no- thing to do with each other, but >I and many, many others will disagree violently at such a >purposefully ignorant attitude. These hedonistic tendencies will >leave you with little fulfillment, less enlightenment, and no >under- standing of the world outside D&D games and national news >programs. To ignore art because it gives no pleasure is synonomous >with ignoring edu- cation because it gives no money. A backward, >Luddite, barbarian attitude which makes me wonder how anyone who >ever held this belief ever got the drive and motivation to learn >how to read. Oh, wombat do! The world simply isn't black and white, and I wish you'd take a look at reality. I can name a lot of highly entertaining ART books: Kafka, Cervantes, Dante all come to mind immediately. But I don't always want art. When I've been under a false floor tracking ethernet cable for 12 hours, picking up a Dickens or a Dostoyevsky would send me jumping off a local building roof. Sometimes, believe it or not, people like to let their hair down. >This is not idle electronic banter, and it is not specifically >directed at you, or at Mr. Robinson. But to champion a "good read" >over "great art" is very, very egocentric. Oh, yes it is. And trying to enforce your own limited beliefs on the net is rather egocentric as well... If you HATE our little ghetto so much, go play with net.books for a while and let us wallow in our own pleasure. please! >I have never made any statements to the effect that something is >good because I enjoy it. Then I feel sorry for you. I have read many a book that I would say to anyone is "good" because I enjoyed it. They may not be the strongest writing or great "literature" but they are enjoyable. If you can't enjoy what you are doing, why do you bother doing it? >I have appreciated many works which I did not necessarily enjoy or >find a "good read". Enrichment of the heart and enlightenment of >the mind do not come to the lazy or the proudly ignorant. You're being snotty, now. "I'm better than you are because I've walked through books that I didn't like, because they were good for me". I've done that, too, but sometimes my brain turns to mush and I simply can't cope with a good Russian Novel. Or even a bad one. Or Gene Wolfe, for that matter... >There are so many closed minds in this world, Now thats an understatement... Did I hear a glass house shudder? >hold Spider Robinson up as a genius and a great writer and a great >commentator on the human condition. I do, actually... Well, maybe not a great writer, but a damned good one. The worst of his essays and stories has more humanism and intelligence than the best of the Drivel I've seen come out of Davis' keyboard... Look. If you don't like the stuff, don't read it. And please, quit bleating at us to stop reading it as well. I happen to LIKE SF, just as I like "literature". Before you cut off Spider Robinson as a cheap hack, I suggest you go find a story of his called "The Time Traveller" and read it. Very. Carefully. More than once. I also suggest you look at some of the more serious works that have come out of SF: Most of Kurt Vonnegut; all Harlan Ellison; Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff; Kate Wilhelm's "Where Once the Sweet Birds Sang"; Ray Bradbury; SilverBob's "Dying Inside"; Sturgeon's "Baby is Three." It is rather obvious that you write each of your essays from a predetermined point of view, and you seem to do only enough research (if that) to prove your own points. They are biased, not based in facts, and not really well written at that. I suggest you know what you're talking about before you start blathering in the future. There is a LOT of good stuff (whether or not you call it ART) in SF, and there are a lot of people that enjoy the SF as ART stuff. There are also a lot of good but not terribly enlightening books, but they serve a good purpose, too -- enjoyment. You don't seem to understand that word, though, and I pity you for that... Now if you'll excuse me, I have some drivel to drool over... Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ From: hpfcla!ajs@topaz.arpa (ajs) Subject: Re: Who's out there... Date: 15 Aug 85 02:01:00 GMT > I believe that there are other forms of life out there... Maybe > they're not even based on any form of matter, but purely in the > form of energy. (What's the difference anyway; matter is energy, > right?) Maybe, or maybe not. As Richard Dawkins put it so well in "The Selfish Gene": "The universe is populated by stable things." and "All life evolves by the differential survival of replicating entities." To go any farther than wild fantasizing about alternate life-forms, you must postulate a physical system which meets these criteria. The system must be stable ("genes are the true immortals"), support replication, and select more viable arrangements or mutations over less suitable forms. Dawkins went looking for familiar, but non-gene-based, living systems. He found one. It is our social and cultural collection of ideas and concepts, the unit of which he calls a "meme". Memes live in our brains, in fact, parasitize them. They survive, replicate, mutate, and are differentially selected. You have just been parasitized by the only self-referent meme. Alan Silverstein, Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Systems Division, Colorado {ihnp4 | hplabs}!hpfcla!ajs, 303-226-3800 x3053, N 40 31'31" W 105 00'43" ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Aug 85 1138-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #334 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 20 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 334 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Kurtz & McCollum, Films - Silent Running & Andromeda Strain, Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sommers@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Mamaliz @ The Soup Kitchen) Subject: Delaney Date: 19 Aug 85 06:33:52 GMT dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA writes: >I think you'll like Delany if you like to watch words be put >together in interesting ways. Delany's books are the kind that >you read to be reading, where the act of reading itself is a >pleasure, yet where nothing much really happens, and you may not >really like the people to whom it's happening, anyway... At last. As I think I have mentioned before that Chip Delany is my favorite science fiction author (if you leave out that Neveryon trash). Dhalgren is the book I have read the most times in my life, it never fails to fascinate me. I find that much happens, but it happens at the pace of life, how much really happens to you in one week? >Dahlgren, Nova, and Triton all have this in common, as does ``Stars >in my pocket like grains of sand.'' Babel-17 is also well written, >but is rather conventional (it has a plot and hackneyed stuff like >that) (interesting, all the same, and I suspect it's most likely >his most approachable book). I thought ``The Einstein >Intersection'' read like the first novel it was (nonetheless, not a >bad bit of writing for a 17-year-old kid). Nova is excellent, a retelling of the Grail. Triton's major redeeming quality is that the author could sit and write a book and finish it about such a selfish a*hole. Babel-17 is just a story. The Ballad of Beta-2 (which at least one time was in a double with Empire Star) is one of the more interesting views of a generation ship (and owes much to Heinlein I think) No odd sex in either of those two novellas(ettes). I enjoyed Empire Star and Einstein quite a lot, seeing the seeds of Dhalgren in them. His first novels are also interesting, one is a trilogy whose name escapes me (has something to do with Towers -- my books are all packed AGAIN) and the other is a sort of fantastic adventure, with leanings toward Tanith Lee. I have not read it in years. >Not to be missed are Delany's short-story collections: >``Drift-glass'' is the name of one, I can't remember the title of >the other (``Empire Star'' perhaps?). Most of his short-stories >are pretty conventional, with plot and interesting characters, and >not so much Bizarre Sex, yet they retain his wonderful prose. Good >Reads in all senses of the words. Try his stories before you give >up on him completely. Especially try Driftglass. I have never seen anybody put it down once they picked it up. >Someone sparked all this by asking if anything ever happened in >Dahlgren. Well, yes. Lots of things happen. About three or four >hundred things happen on every page. Weren't you paying attention? >Just about every single word in Dahlgren is an event in itself. >Unfortunately, most of the words don't seem to be describing >anything. I'm glad you brought it up, though, because since then >lots of people have mentioned what they saw in the book, and now >I'm eager to re-read it with these new ideas. > >Why do you care that Dahlgren never explains where it's going when >the mere act of getting there has more in it than you can possibly >absorb? And aren't you smart and imaginative enough to get there yourself? It goes, my god it goes. liz sommers My "best address" will soon be changing to topaz!mama!liz but I can still be reached at: uucp: ...{seismo, ut-sally,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!sommers arpa: sommers@rutgers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 85 12:00:46 PDT From: Pavel.pa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie" Charley Wingate writes: > I happen to own _Language of the Night_ by LeGuin, ... First, we > have "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie", in which she takes apart (as > it happens) K. Kurtz (who seems to have learned from the article). I had the good fortune to talk to Katherine Kurtz about this very article at Westercon in Sacramento last month. I was interested in whether or not she had been affected by the article and, in particular, whether it was responsible for what I perceived as a long gap between books (i.e., had the article soured Katherine on writing in any way). She made some interesting comments on the subject. First, she assured me that she had in no way been discouraged by the article; the gaps between her books all stem from the fact that she's just a relatively slow writer. Another comment was that while she wouldn't go so far as to claim that LeGuin had been wrong to write the piece as she did, Katherine would never have published something so bald about another's work without at least sending a copy to the subject. Katherine claims she never even heard about the piece until she stumbled across it much later (I think when reading ``Language of the Night''). I think I agree with her on this point. As a final point, she agreed with me (unsurprisingly, I suppose) that LeGuin's claims in the article were just plain wrong. (The article takes a couple of paragraphs out of ``Deryni Rising'' and, by changing the proper names into modern ones, transforms the writing into a 20th-century political novel. LeGuin makes that statement that in true fantasy writing she shouldn't be able to do that.) Katherine is not trying to write ``high fantasy'' in the tradition of Lord Dunsany and Tolkien. She is writing what she calls ``historical fantasy''; she is trying for a greater sense of realism and identifiability in her characters. Their style of speaking is always appropriate to the situation: ``forsoothly speech'' is not for every-moment use. I believe that LeGuin takes far too narrow a view in her criticism of Ms. Kurtz. To sum up the reason I wrote this in response to the excerpt above, not only do I not think Katherine has ``learned from the article'' anything about writing, but I believe that the article really had nothing to teach her in the first place. Pavel Curtis ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.arpa (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Re: Procyon's Promise & antimatter black holes Date: 15 Aug 85 16:30:20 GMT [this is not a spoiler] I just read _Life_Probe_, the predecesser to _Procyon's_Promise_. It is quite clear there, when McCollum first introduces the anti-matter black holes, that he knows there is no difference between matter and anti-matter black holes by current theory. He is assuming that that theory is wrong, and that anti-matter black holes have a longer lifespan. This is much the same sort of thing every science fiction writer does. Now, I think he would have been better to have been more vague about what his I-masses were (or consult a physicist to get a more plausible explanation). Firstly, the kind of difference between matter and anti- matter black holes he proposes is just not very likely. Second, the time, shortly after the big bang, when quantum black holes might have formed is well before the separation of the primal ylem into matter and anti-matter. Oh, well, at least he tried. ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!barmar@topaz.arpa (Barry Margolin) Subject: Silent Running music Date: 19 Aug 85 04:52:01 GMT I was just watching the closing credits of "Silent Running" on TV, and I thought I noticed the name of Peter Schikele, the infamous PDQ Bach scholar, in the credits for the music. It was small print (the credit for Joan Baez, which immediately preceded it, was noticeably larger) and it went quickly, so I'm not sure about this. Some of you out there probably have this on tape, so could you verify this for me? Mail responses to me (preferably at the UUCP address), and I'll summarize. Barry Margolin ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar ------------------------------ Date: 20 AUG 1985 00:59:00 GMT+2:00 From: <#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> (Ralf Bayer) Subject: Re: Andromeda Strain Question (Issue 325) >From: proper!judith@topaz.arpa (Judith Abrahms) >I haven't seen _The_Andromeda_Strain_ in a few years, but I began >to wonder about this recently. As the scientists who are to >investigate the bug are taken deeper and deeper into the lab >complex, they are progressively cleaned, shaven, disinfected, >weaned from real food, etc. etc. etc., so they will be REALLY clean >when they get to the lowest level. They never interact with >anything important except through waldos and other interfaces built >to eliminate contact, so what's the difference? As far as I remember (from reading the book) it was to prevent possible interaction between Earth's bacteria and the "Thing from outside", should the scientists accidentially get in contact with the virus from space. They were always afraid that something even worse than the strange virus could develop. Ralf (#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA) (Beware of the number sign (#) - it's part of my User-ID) ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 19 Aug 1985 08:14:28-PDT From: moreau%babel.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ken Moreau, ZKO2-3/N30 3N11, DTN From: 381-2102) Subject: Critics Bill Ingogly writes: >Fact: Gerald Jonas writes a column in the NYTBR every other week. >He hardly trashes every SF book he reviews. Another fact: I believe > [some text omitted] > I see some of the hostility toward >'critics' in this newsgroup arising from the perception of SF as a >popular genre, and a certain resentment that the 'eggheads' are >seen as either (1) choosing to ignore SF or (2) choosing to say bad >things about SF as a matter of course. Sorry, I never said that NYTBR trashes only SF, I said they trash anything which I seem to like. I also never said that 'eggheads' are ignoring or saying bad things about SF. My points about critics were (and are) completely general, not limited to SF, literature, Broadway, or any other field. The feeling seems to be common to critics in every field. I agree that some critics (at least of NYTBR and a few other places) do not apply different standards to SF, but I disagree with their standards when they review anything. >You're welcome to your opinions, but don't assume you've found some >great 'truth' or that anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't >belong in this newsgroup (there have been replies to some of my >postings, for example, that questioned my 'right' to post in this >newsgroup because of my 'incorrect thinking'). But my whole point is that there is no such thing as "great 'truth'". I don't assume I found it, I deny that it even exists! I welcome other opinions because I enjoy these discussions. As someone or other said a while ago, (possibly paraphrased) "I completely disagree with everything you said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Brad Templeton writes: >I suspect that the use of "art" as a pejorative stems from the fact >that quite often material is passed off as art when it is quite >simply *BAD*. > >What Spider Robinson (an author whom I dislike, btw) may be trying >to say is that truly superb art involves excellent communication >skills as well. You may have something valid to say about emotions >or the human condition, and you may be able to convey it to a few >who think as you do, but an artist of great skill conveys it to >all. Thank you for saying what I meant, better than I said it. Critics (and most self-proclaimed artists who do not have the skills to back up their pretensions) seem to feel that "It is great art because I *SAY* it is great art, and if you don't understand it and agree with me, you are an uncultured barbarian" (see Mr. Tuckers comments, below). Davis Tucker writes: >In most places in the world, to say that something is "great art" >is a compliment. To you and Spider Robinson (author of such art as >"Harry Callahan's Crossroad Five-Guys-In-A-Bar-Trade-Stupid-Puns- >And-Act-Superior-And- Incredibly-Sophomoric"), it is an insult. *WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG*. I said that art and a good read are orthoganal, and that I preferred one of them over the other. I *NEVER* said that one is superior to the other, because (see above) I deny that the concept of "great truth", or "absolute standards" by which to measure superior, even exists. I also never said that I do not like great art, but (as Brad Templeton points out) most of the stuff touted as *ART* is not art, it is bad. I like and appreciate art. But I won't depend on some pompous critic (or even you, Mr. Tucker) to tell me that some piece of sh** is art simply because I don't immediately like or understand it. If it is art (and to me that is a very select, very praiseworthy term), then it will be immediately obvious to everyone. If it is not, then it fails the test, and no critic can sneer at my taste enough to make me admit it is art. >But to champion a "good read" over "great art" is very, very >egocentric. It also belies an inferiority complex about one's >ability to appreciate art and uphold one's personal standards as >opposed to lying down and accepting the tyranny of entertainment. >Many definitions of great art encompass being a "good read", but >this quality is but a portion of what it takes to write a great >novel. It seems to me that if I am "accepting the tyranny of entertainment", you are accepting the tyranny of critics. And I agree that being a good read is but a portion of what it takes be a great novel. But most of what critics have touted to be *GREAT NOVELS* have not had that portion, have not been a good read in addition to whatever else you may require to judge something great. I seems to me that you are attacking the very action you are trying to defend. I am confident in my "ability to appreciate art and uphold one's personal standards". But when I defend that standard, you accuse me of being egocentric. >Spider Robinson... (the sound of spitting in derision and disgust) > [some text omitted] purposefully ignorant attitude. These >hedonistic tendencies will leave you with little fulfillment, less >enlightenment, and no understanding of the world outside D&D games >and national news programs. > [some text omitted] > ... A backward, Luddite, barbarian attitude ... > [some text omitted] > Spider Robinson's championing of ease >of reading over depth of feeling is simple laziness. > [some text omitted] > ... semi-mindless entertainment ... > [some text omitted] > ... the lazy or the proudly ignorant. ... > [some text omitted] >"I am ignorant, I am proud of it, and I shall remain blissfully so". Isn't it nice that we are keeping this discussion on an high-level and serious track, without resorting to insult and personal attacks? Ken Moreau ------------------------------ Cc: druri!dht@topaz.arpa Subject: Tucker Review Date: 19 Aug 85 13:27:05 PDT (Mon) From: Dave Godwin Mr. Tucker, Apparently you've not read much of Mr. Robinson's work. I will not argue with your viewpoint; my purpose in life is not to sway others to think the way I think. But, damn, you sure pick a nasty way to describe a writer who places the use of 'heart and emotions', as you aproximately put it, above most of the other aspects in his work. Robinson does not write 'five-guys-in-a-bar-telling-bad- puns' stories. Ever read Stardance ? Most folks liked it well enough to give it a Hugo. And a Nebula. And a couple of other things. Have you ever met the man ? No, you have not, or you would not be confusing his WRITING with his self. There was a long discussion on this bboard quite recently on this very problem. So please, stop flaming needlessly. Clear thinking is always welcome here; the 'barbarianism', as you put it, is not. David Godwin UC Irvine ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Aug 85 0923-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #335 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 21 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 335 Today's Topics: Books - Bear & Delany & Harrison & Niven (2 msgs), Films - Star Wars, Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) & Time Tides ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 20 Aug 85 01:15:17-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: EON, by Greg Bear (reveiw) One of the little advantages of living in New York is The Science Fiction Shop, run by Baird Searles, who reveiws books for IASFM. When he finishes a reveiw he hangs a copy in the store, where fen can read it 5-6 months before it appears in print. On the basis of this, I bought: EON by Greg Bear Books, 0-312-94144-7, August 85' Micro-review (non-spoiler): Excellent hard-SF novel, truly evokes the Sense of Wonder so beloved by us fen. A strong contender for the Hugo in Atlanta next year. BUY THIS BOOK! Review: (**** QUASI-SPOILER ****, but little more than on the fly leaf). In the very near future a large, modified asteroid enters the Solar System from deep space, and inserts itself into orbit around the Earth. It appears dead and makes no attempt to communicate. At this time the US is pre-eminent in space, and international research teams sent to investigate 'The Stone' are under tight (US) security. The Stone turns out to have seven hollow chambers hewn out of the rock, with spin giving them gravity (ala Rendevous with Rama). The first six are deserted, some containing cities. There are some very troubling findings: **** MEDIUM SCALE SPOILERS FOLLOW **** (1) The Stone was definitely built and inhabited by humans, and appears to be over a thousand years old. (2) The libraries in the cities contain books in English, some with printing dates hundreds of years in the future. (3) A history book in the library describes current events almost, but not quite, accurately, and indicates that a full scale, nuke-'em-till-they-glow nuclear war is due in a few weeks. As you can imagine, this is all rather unsettling. The final mystery concerns the fate of the builders. The seventh chamber does not have an end: it appears to go on forever. Like the Tardis, The Stone is bigger on the inside than on the outside. The builders of The Stone apparently packed their bags and trekked off down the seventh chamber into the far distance. The central character is Patricia Vasquez, a theoretical mathematician summoned up to The Stone to figure out (1) how the seventh chamber ticks, and (2) if the future history described in the library is avoidable. This is the opening scenario. The tension builds as the time moves towards the predicted Armaggedon and contact is finally made with the builders. More I cannot tell you without major spoilers. **** END OF SPOILER **** This one is a real page turner, I was constantly wondering what would happen next. There are enough new ideas and plot potential here for three books (there is the potential for sequels, but this does not detract from the present volume). Overall rating: +5 on the -6 to +6 scale. I LIKED THIS BOOK! Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b ------------------------------ From: nte-scg!phil@topaz.arpa (Phil Trubey) Subject: Re: DeSamual Delany Date: 13 Aug 85 14:31:43 GMT >> Don't ask me why. Either Delany dislikes his hands, he knows >> someone with disfigured hands, or it's some literary allusion I >> don't understand. > > Here's my frivolous literary theory of the week A deformity of the > hands could symbolize powerlessness -- an inability to "handle" > the world or some part of it. That fits with Nova, at least. Actually that would also fit with _Triton_ ... although I can't really remember if the protaganist's hands in the story were disfigured. While on the subject of hands, in both _The_Einstein_Intersection_ and _Triton_, a current dress fashion is to have your hands incased in tiny cages. Phil Trubey Northern Telecom Electronics Ltd. Ottawa, Ontario Mail path: ...!bnr-vpa!nte-scg!phil ------------------------------ From: mmintl!tedi@topaz.arpa (Ted Ives) Subject: Re: THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT by Harry Subject: Harrison Date: 15 Aug 85 18:10:07 GMT I read somewhere that Harrison is coming out with a new STAINLESS STEEL RAT book sometime this fall. I'm not sure, but I think the article said something to the effect that it is about the ORIGIN of Slippery Jim. -Ted Ives pwa-b!mmintl or tedi@mmintl.UUCP ------------------------------ Subject: Protectors Date: 19 Aug 85 18:40:56 PDT (Mon) From: Dave Godwin OK, boys and girls, here's the current synopsis ( after I ran off and re-read Protector and the pertenant sections of Ringworld Engineers. ). 1. Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would live in a free atmosphere. This is how Roy Treusdale got turned into a Protector. 2. The virus got all over the Home colony. The entire elligible population changed into Protectors. The rest died. Home was then used as a staging area to fight the incoming Pak. First, the Home boys ( sorry ) built fake cities and stuff all over the planet to sucker in the Pak scout ships. The scouts were destroyed, and the Home team ( real sorry ) left this part of space to fight of the main Pak fleet. No more word is ever heard from Truesdale or his followers. 3. Treusdale's pregnant wife, who knows all about Brennan and the incoming Pak colony fleet supposedly makes it back to the Belt, and the Human governments at least should know what she knows. 4. Lots and lots of centuries later, we have Louis Wu. In 'Engineers', he reminices that he's lived on lot's of worlds. Lots of years spent on Earth, and enough years on various colony world to make him feel like a native. On of these he mentions is Home. So apparently Home is resettled. So, questions that I don't see clear answers to: 1. How were the Home Protectors able to clean up the atmosphere of Home ? And did they also remove all trace of their presence (fake cities, etc ) from same ? I guess they had to have, but this is a bit heavy on my suspension of disbelief. 2. The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors. If they hadn't, humans would know. So what happened to the winners ? Did everybody die ? They aren't in known space or on the Ringworld. Somebody ( Outsiders, Grog telepaths, Teela Brown ) would notice something after all those years. Where are they hiding ( and what are they doing ? ) ? Maybe they did all die. None of them but Truesdale had descendants left anywhere at all, so after the Pak were destroyed, there would have been no reason to live on. Poor guys. It's too bad they never stuck around for the Man-Kzin wars. There would only have been one war. And no more Kzinti. 3. Small detail question. The stl Ramships found on the starport docks on the Ringworld were built from modified Ringworld attitude jets, right ? Built by Ringworld natives ( City Builders ? ), millenia after all the Ringworld Pak died off. So whose Pak style vacsuit did Loius and Chmeee find on that one intact starship ? Vacsuits are form fitting. Teela Brown's ? Also, wasn't 'Down In Flames' a satire by Niven on Niven ? I can't see Bea Sheaffer as a Protector. Protectors shouldn't oughta be 7 + feet tall. ( Imagine a basketball team of We Made It descended Protectors. ) So lets clutter up the net with more Niven talk. What other holes in continuity do you folks see ? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 20 Aug 1985 14:42:06-PDT From: insinga%elsie.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Aron K. Insinga) Subject: PROTECTOR I think that Brandon Allbery is confusing "the Pak home planet" with "the Earth colony named 'Home' (which is wiped out by a plague)". Remember that Brennan, Truesdale, and other humans are much more advanced than the Pak breeders are and have learned to work together in groups already. The first protectors on Home spent a lot of time (for protectors! 6 days for Truesdale; hours for all 26 of them) discussing the situation and only finally decided that they'd need many more protectors than that to fight off the fleet and save humanity at large. Truesdale would be the only protector on Home who had descendents in Sol's system, but Sol's system had at least 80% (as I remember) of the humans in the universe and they must have decided to make the sacrifice, since Brennan had already led the Pak scouts in their direction. The book did briefly deal with how the protectors dealt with those who tried to keep their families from getting the virus, but why more didn't is explained by only the preceeding (weak?) argument. Anyway, for various reasons, it is one of my favorite books. (No flames, please! I just liked the various explanations in the book explaining why the alternate-anthropology made sense. Or maybe I liked the idea of having protectors look out for me and in turn doing the same someday. I guess becoming a father has something to do with that... I can identify with protectors a lot better now!) Re: Protectors and 'other' aliens: I don't think that they would really have let any other species survive (remember the Martians?) if at all possible. Maybe the war just kept going on, and the protectors are still leading the Pak further from Earth even during Ringworld's time. - Aron Insinga ------------------------------ From: dartvax!davidk@topaz.arpa (David C. Kovar) Subject: Re: Decline and fall of the StarWars Empire Date: 19 Aug 85 14:49:54 GMT >>The sad decline of the capabilities of the empire stormtroopers >>must surely be due to the same ecological disaster that lead to >>the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, namely lead plumbing >>(only here it was not only the leaders, but also the troops). > >Surely it is more likely that the plastic armour gives off a low >level of solvent causing brain damage I was more of the opinion that the plastic armour did nothing to protect them and that they tended to do more damage to the surrounding environment than they did to the people (things, animals, etc) attacking them. On this silly subject, what did the armour in Star Wars ever do? All I can recall is that it provided comm facilities, blast protection for the eyes, and looked funky. Did any armour *ever* turn a shot? What's the point of wearing the stuff? Oh yea, it may have also served as a vacuum suit. (wirrrrrrrrrrrrr, as it cleans the hallways of the Death Star....) David C. Kovar USNET: {linus|decvax|cornell|astrovax}!dartvax!davidk%amber ARPA: davidk%amber%dartmouth@csnet-relay CSNET: davidk%amber@dartmouth ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 85 18:06:29 EDT (Tuesday) Subject: Davis Tuckers work of art From: Power.wbst@Xerox.ARPA So there I was, just about ready to contribute my splash of gasoline to the debate on criticism in Science Fiction, when I read Davis Tuckers' soliloquy. I stand in awe. It just took my breath away, knocked me down, kicked me in the head. I had to stand back away from the fierce brightness of it's image on my CRT, those perfect words burned phosphor bright in my eyeballs. It was art, my friends, purest art. That piece of literature is the peaking example of the writers effort. Here is a man, a lone man, who has taken a simple sentence, a mere statement, and fleshed it out into a page and a half of unstoppable brilliance. The original paltry sentence? A measly thing, a trifle: "Ken Moreau, I think you are a jerk." A mere stick of a sentence, something anyone could have said. But not content with that, Tucker set out to berobe it with splendorous allusions and illusions alike. He gifts us with six-hundred eighty-six words strung together like diamonds twined with blue-hot fires. Giving life to his statement, rising above the stark simplicity to create a thing of beauty. That, in the opinion of some of the most outspoken experts across the globe, is art at its pinacle. -Jim ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie" Date: 20 Aug 85 02:29:22 GMT Pavel.pa@Xerox.ARPA writes: > I happen to own _Language of the Night_ by LeGuin, ... First, we > have "From Elfland to Poughkeepsie", in which she takes apart (as > it happens) K. Kurtz (who seems to have learned from the article). > > I had the good fortune to talk to Katherine Kurtz about this very > article at Westercon in Sacramento last month. I was interested > in whether or not she had been affected by the article. > >... she agreed with me (unsurprisingly, I suppose) that LeGuin's >claims in the article were just plain wrong. (The article takes a >couple of paragraphs out of ``Deryni Rising'' and, by changing the >proper names into modern ones, transforms the writing into a >20th-century political novel. LeGuin makes that statement that in >true fantasy writing she shouldn't be able to do that.) Katherine >is not trying to write ``high fantasy'' in the tradition of Lord >Dunsany and Tolkien. She is writing what she calls ``historical >fantasy''; she is trying for a greater sense of realism and >identifiability in her characters. Their style of speaking is >always appropriate to the situation: ``forsoothly speech'' is not >for every-moment use. I believe that LeGuin takes far too narrow a >view in her criticism of Ms. Kurtz. Unfortunately, I had not read the article before last Darkovercon, so I'll have to wait until November to ask her myself. Obviously, my speculation about her improvement in style (and I do think she has improved) was wrong. On the other hand, I think Ms. Kurtz's characterization of her work as 'historical fantasy" begs a few questions. Leguin's complaint essentially boils down to the observation that in much of what is today called fantasy, the characters are essentially modern men dressed up, often with a little forsoothly language thrown on top for verissimilitude. It isn't just that Morgan and Nigel don't speak funny; their whole attitude is modern. Morgan in the latest book, while he still doth not forsoothly speak, is much more a man of his time. In most respects, I think it is fair to characterize the earlier Kelson series as political adventure novels in medeival dress. Whether or not you want to call them fantasy is a matter of taste; LeGuin would rather not. As the Camber books progress, however, the characters begin to acquire that larger-than-life quality that I think LeGuin is seeking. I guess I disagree with LeGuin as far as she chooses to use the word "fantasy". Nevertheless, I think attention should be paid to her argument. There are too many second- and third-rate books attempting to ride on the coattails of the likes of Tolkien and Dunsany. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 21:27:56 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: "Time tides" Time DOES pass at a different rate at different elevations. This effect is too small to notice on earth except with fantastically accurate clocks. It is a function of experienced G forces, not of tidal forces (which are the first space derivative of G forces). No person could possibly survive anywhere where the G forces were great enough to make this effect easily noticable. ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Aug 85 0946-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #336 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 21 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 336 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Niven & Yates, Television - Nelvana Studios, Miscellaneous - Aliens (2 msgs) & Critics (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Subject: Asimov and scientific revenge (from BTTF time travel Subject: discussion) Date: 18 Aug 85 20:03:32 GMT The article I am referencing has a title request, and a request for an inconsistancy resolution. I don't remember the title, but I can help with the inconsistancy. To condense the original: > From: Jim Petrick (petrick@lll-crg.ARPA) > This discussion reminds me of an Isaac Asimov story about two > scientists; [...] The quick one invents a device for nullifying > gravity, [...] places the device on the center of a pool table > over a hole cut in the surface. [...] the quick guy invites the > slow guy to demonstrate [the] great invention he has by shooting a > pool ball [...] through the null-gravity field [...] The slow guy > thinks a bit, then makes a bank shot so the ball is headed > directly at the fast guy as it enters the field. [...] the quick > guy has a hole punched through him by the ball [which] stayed put > while the rest of the world whooshed by > > Two questions: Does anyone remember the title of this story? I beleive it had to do with the plot, and was something like "Fools rush in...", but I wouldn't bet the mortgage. > How could the slow guy predict which way the ball accelerated? He didn't have to. You've mis-remembered the reason that the ball zapped the quick guy [the experimentalist], and the reasoning that the slow guy [the theoretician] used to predict this behavior. **** SPOILER WARNING (for those who want to read it for themselves) **** The story was told from the viewpoint of a third fellow, who observed the incident and smelled a rat. The reason the pool ball took off like a bullet was that it was made *massless* by the gravity-nullifying device. Massless particles *must* travel at the speed of light, hence the ball takes off at lightspeed. Upon leaving the gravity-free zone, the transition back to massy-ness, and back to sane velocity (for massy particles) is incomplete, and the ball still has near-light speed. In the story, there is foreshadowing of this, and after the fact this effect is used to manufacture energy (by blowing small particles into the field and capturing the radiation that results yielding heat, driving turbines, etc, etc). Now then, in the story, the slow fellow had figured out what was going on before making his shot. He realized that a particle going into the field "ought to" leave the field along the same line, but accelerated to near-lightspeed. The third party suspected him of this, but the slow guy covered his tracks well, by promoting the theory that the exit path was random. The third party was the only one who noticed that the ball went *into* the field aimed directly at the quick fellow's heart, and he couldn't get anybody else to believe him. Sadly, it seems to me that there is a problem with Asimov's reasoning. Such a field "should" act on the elementary particles that *make up* the pool ball, not on the pool ball as a whole. Thus, since the particles that make it up are vibrating every-which-way (in thermal motion), the ball should have *exploded*, leaving a sizeable crater, rather than turning into a pool-ball-diameter beam of hard radiation. Ah well, a fairly nice short story with a twist ending, even so. Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: Niven's Protectors Date: 18 Aug 85 20:03:32 GMT Of course, now that Brennan has been tinkering, we are just as likely to say "Yech-O, this yam tastes different!" once we take a bite... Should we lobby for net.misc.yam-classic? Is Brennan on the net? :-) (I suppose I should be ashamed for cross-posting to so many groups, but as somebody who subscribes to all of these (I didn't say I *read* them, did I?), I couldn't help myself. I wonder what a penguin Protector would be like? Would tree-of-life virus cure amnesia in a penguin? But I digress...) Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: DIASPORAH by W. R. Yates Date: 26 Aug 85 06:57:16 GMT DIASPORAH by W. R. Yates Baen, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Baen Books seems to find (first) novels with interesting ideas behind them (FRONTERA, THE TORCH OF HONOR, THE CONTINENT OF LIES, and this one comes to mind). Unfortunately, the authors of most of them haven't learned how to handle these ideas, and the reader ends up disappointed. (I have not yet read THE CONTINENT OF LIES so it might not have this problem.) DIASPORAH is no exception. The idea--Israel and the Middle East are destroyed and Israel moves into space--is a catchy one. I was hoping to see some political intrigue, some discussion of how religious rules would be interpreted in space (there have already been rabbinical rulings on how one determines sunrise/sunset on orbital flights for purposes of prayer), all sorts of interesting ideas. And what do I get? A bumbling U.N. agent (and this is NOT supposed to be a comedy), some stock Jewish characters (note that I don't say "stereotypes," because it's not that blatant), a predictable ending, and some of the most outrageous howlers to hit science fiction in a long time: - In the back blurb, it says that the Middle East has been turned into a "mass of radioactive slag. But unlike Islam, Israel survives." Actually, Islam is far too wide-spread a religion to be destroyed even if the entire Middle East were wiped out--it is found on all continents, with especially heavy concentrations in Asia and Africa. (This is the blurb-writer's fault.) - An agent is supposed to pass himself off as Jewish, but isn't briefed on the laws of kasruth (kosher). - Chapter XII has a date of Elul 4 when it's obviously Tishre 1 (though the rest of the dates seem correct). - Yates's use of Hebrew and Yiddish terms (with apparently random capitalization rules) indicates an unfamiliarity with them. - The main computer is called "Gollum." Close, but no cigar--he means (undoubtedly) "Golem" (an "artificial man" in Jewish legend, not unlike the Frankenstein Monster). Actually, the glossary in the back has "golem," with it original meaning, but in the book, the spelling used is "Gollum." - The glossary misses a lot of terms used in the novel, and seems to have a lot that don't show up (maybe I just knew what they meant and didn't notice them). - A swimming pool would not also be used as a mikveh (there are water- flow requirements that wouldn't be met), and certainly not for both sexes if the users were Orthodox. Speaking of which, Yates doesn't seem to understand what Orthodox means. He has a character talk about how an Orthodox area is apparently becoming Chassidic, because many of the men are starting to wear yarmulkes all the time. - The computer seems pretty much like our computers today, but suddenly it launches into a philosophical discussion with Greenberg, in which it professes to be Jewish. - When a character's radio antenna is snapped off, Yates says, "The vacuum about them was filled with Hebrew curses." Sound doesn't travel in a vacuum. - Early on, Yates claims that the Middle East has been destroyed, but later he says that Jerusalem is still standing (just heavily radioactive). If as many bombs were dropped on Israel as Yates claims, Jerusalem would be slag also--Israel is about the size of New Jersey. - Yates can't decide if the United Nations controls all the atomic weapons in the world, or if the United States and the Soviet Union still have some power. Yates had a good idea, but couldn't pull it off. Perhaps he will do better next time. But perhaps Baen Books should not buy books if they can't provide some editorial assistance where needed; they should have caught most of the flaws mentioned above. Me? I'm going to go back and see if THE TEXAS-ISRAELI WAR: 1999R was any better. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: sun!alan@topaz.arpa (Alan Marr, Sun Graphics) Subject: Nelvana Studios Date: 20 Aug 85 07:38:59 GMT In addition to doing "The Care Bears", "Rome-0 & Julie-8", and "Take Me Up to the Ball Game", they did "Rock & Rule", which was a full-length animated movie featuring the voices of Lou Reed and Debbie Harry. It was better than average, as movies go, and had a bit of a futuristic background. ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 09:40:08 -0200 To: jwhite%maine.bitnet@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive > That fate would likely await us also. Their culture would > undoubtedly be much different from ours, and their technology > would be suited to their culture. For us to thus take advantage of > their advanced goodies, a dramatic cultural upheaval would be > required. And what makes you think such an upheaval will be bad for us? There are certainly many things I don't like in our culture today - and the alternative you're talking about is a culture which was able to reach the stars! > Oh well enough for now. I would be interested in titles/authors > that have tried to approach the issue of cultural interaction > between very different cultures. Try Poul Anderson, particularly in the Polesotechnic League - Terran Empire series. He usually looks from the other end of the stick (WE are the aliens coming to a less advanced culture), but he does handle the issue in a very interesting and thoughtful manner. Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 23:06:30 PDT Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive. JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) writes: >When the first creature from another planet first sets foot, >(tenticle, pod, or whatever it may 'set'), on Earth, if it is >within our power to do so, we should kill it and eat it. Not a good idea. If we landed someone on another planet and the local primitive-compared-to-us natives promptly made a meal of the astronaut, we would probably respond by conquering the planet, killing a fair number of natives in the process. We could be on the receiving end of that. I think your fears are unnecessarily bleak. Although Western society subjugated natives in four continents, we weren't as far above them as we would like to pretend. Any star-voyaging race that finds us will be further ahead of us than we are ahead of Cro-Magnon man. Moreover, I don't believe that it is possible for any society to reach the level of distant star exploration until it learns to behave itself in its own backyard. Star travelling peoples won't have fought a war in several generations. They aren't going to re-learn just for us. For some good books about the meeting of two radically different cultures, try H. Beam Piper's "Fuzzy" novels. They don't fall into any of the four categories you mentioned ("cuddly" would only fit a very shallow reading). /Bruce N. Wheelock/ arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ Date: Tue Aug 20 15:17:05 1985 From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson) Subject: "Anti-Art" snobbery" Hooray for Davis Tucker finally taking to task those people who practice "Anti-art" snobbery -- those who snort with derision at something which requires you to turn on a 5 Watt bulb over your head and use a few brain cells. Perhaps this category includes those people flaming at "awful" DHALGREN ("Gawd, this stuff makes me *think* -- yukk, give me Edgar Rice Burroughs anyday!"). I have never read DHALGREN, but it's on my list of Must Read books (and it's moved up a couple of notches because of this controversy). I will say, though, that I have never heard it described with anything less than respectful awe. It won the Nebula Award, which is given by the Science Fiction Writers of America to the work which the *writers* feel is the best piece of literature published in the past year (and it won the Nebula back in the days when the award did mean something). I think that anybody who says that DHALGREN is a poorly written, plotless piece of trash should maybe ask themselves if there is even the remotest chance they might be MISSING something? I am relatively new to the net, but I'm rather disturbed by the inordinate amount of time spent discussing "mindless adventure" books and films -- Piers Anthony, Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame, the deep questions behind "Back to the Future" -- sure, it's nice to read books for fun once in a while, but SF *is* the "Literature of Ideas" and you don't often find dazzling ideas in gosh*wow! space opera. I can enjoy watching a fluffy adventure movie, too, but I enjoy a fascinating challenge much more. Too many ray guns, rocketships, and bug-eyed monsters makes me afraid my brain will atrophy! -- Kevin J. Anderson ------------------------------ Date: 20 Aug 85 18:30:05 EDT (Tuesday) Subject: Critics/Reveiews/Slugs From: Power.wbst@Xerox.ARPA Here's my dose of gasoline to the critics debate. It's not that I rank a critic as the LOWEST form of parasite (after all, there is Dave Barrys' famous 'slime covered slug that has just vomited on itself' to contend with), it's just that he/she/it comes vanishingly close. I think one of the best things about science fiction is the lack of professional criticism. It has helped the genre stay crisp and innovative, kept it from miring down in the defensive posture exhibited by the struggling authors forever ducking the screeching of critical hags. When a writer starts worrying about the effects of an opinion put forth by some withered peeping tom, he starts writing defensively, working so as not to lose. This leaves less and less time to come up with the new and imaginative ideas that abound in our genre. Does this mean that I think its wrong to criticize? Of course not. One expects friends to take you aside now and again and warn you that your fly is unbuttoned. Or get drunk with some new acquaintance at a Con and have him tell you the woes of the art, the trouble with these new-comers, and how things were better in the old days. These things can even get nasty or spiteful, and while I don't like it, I still wouldn't put it in the same category as the words of a Critic (capital C). A Critic is a second party, someone on the outside that's talked a third party into paying him a salary for throwing rocks inside. Finally, as you can see by my definition, it doesn't include reviewers, archivists, or SF-librarians. It's more of an attitude than a job title that makes a critic into a Critic. It's someone holding himself separate from a group, a person who goes to a party and stands on the roof peeing through the skylights at the people below. This definition probably doesn't include many on this net (even those that in the heat of argrument may cross the fine line between debate and insult), or anyone that takes the time and effort to get involved in something they care about. -Jim ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Aug 85 0846-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #337 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 23 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 337 Today's Topics: Books - Robinson & Salmonson & Story Cycles & The Science Fiction Book Club, Films - Silent Running (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Ewoks & Storm Troopers & Critics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 12:20:47 EDT From: Baidins@UDel-Huey.ARPA Subject: Robinson and 'five-guys... Sorry, Robinson does write bar stories with bad puns in addition to excellent work like STARDANCE. This is not to say that his bar stories are not great reads, just not great works of art. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Aug 85 20:17:07 CDT From: moorel@EGLIN-VAX Subject: Oriental Fantasy Novels In response to L S Chabot's post concerning Barry Hughart's _Bridge_of_Birds: Although I'm not familiar with his works, I've found several books of the same type of fantasy set in the Orient "that never was". The author's Jessica Amanda Salmonson, and the books are the Tomoe Gozen trilogy and a new book, Ou_Lu_Khen _and_the_Beautiful_Madwoman. The former are set in a mythical Japan, and are the adventures of a female samurai warrior, Tomoe Gozen. The latter book is set in an equally mythical China, and deals with the courtship of a holy mad-woman by an ordinary man. Her writing style is elegant and intense, and her characters are very well developed. If you enjoy this type of unusual fantasy novel, give these books a try. Lynne C. Moore (MOOREL@EGLIN-VAX.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.arpa Subject: re: story cycles Date: 17 Aug 85 08:46:40 GMT > Good heavens! We can't forget Canterbury Tales. Having moved from stories told in a bar to "The Canterbury Tales", we might as well go on one step further and deal with story cycles. The two best known, other than Chaucer, are Boccaccio's "Decameron" and "The Arabian Nights". The idea behind these works is that, for some reason, characters start telling stories to one another. In "The Decameron", the stories are told as entertainment while some folks are waiting out a plague in a closed estate. In "The Arabian Nights", of course, the stories are (mostly) told by Scheherazade, in her attempt to forstall her death. The latter is more interesting to fantasy lovers, as it recounts many fantastic tales. It is also more interesting to computer scientists, for it has a lovely recursive structure, in which stories are told within stories within stories. If your only exposure to "The Arabian Nights" has been through children's versions, you're in for a treat, as the children's editions trash the basic structure, remove all sex and bawdiness (and there's a lot), and, since they were largely written for Europeans, cut all the stories in which Christians appear as villains. Among other things, this last loses a fantastic extended epic about the Crusades, told from a Moslem perspective, for a change. Uncut editions of "The Arabian Nights" are expensive (they run to several volumes) and can sometimes be hard to find. (Other times Publisher's Clearinghouse is trying to unload them.) If the full version is unavailable or too daunting in size, there is a portable version which includes many stories and summarizes the rest. It's known as "The Portable Arabian Nights", I think, and is put out by the same people who do "The Portable Faulkner", "The Portable Poe", etc. On a truly obscure note, there is another story cycle known as "The Saragossa Manuscript". It was written in the early 19th century by a Polish count named Potocki, and deals with the adventures of an impoverished but proud young nobleman making his way across a deserted part of Spain in order to take up a commission in the Spanish army. The structure is like that of "The Arabian Nights", but has an additional twist: not only are stories contained within stories, many levels deep, but stories on different levels start interacting. The first part is of more interest to fantasy lovers, but the latter half contains a fine set of semi-comic adventures. Unfortunately, Potocki cops out at the very end. "The Saragossa Manuscript" is very hard to get hold of, in my experience. The only English language edition I know of is in two parts, "The New Decameron" and "The Saragossa Manuscript", both published in the mid sixties. Major libraries may have copies, and any library can probably track one down for you if you expend enough effort. The Research Library at UCLA has the only copies I have ever seen. For those who read Polish, it can likely be found at a good Polish bookstore (wherever those are), as I understand that Poles are rather proud of the book. There is also an excellent film version of "The Saragossa Manuscript", in Polish and infrequently shown, but none the less one of my favorite movies. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.arpa (e.c.leeper) Subject: Science Fiction Book Club Date: 26 Aug 85 06:58:07 GMT Comments on The Science Fiction Book Club An article by Evelyn C. Leeper Recently, Ellen Asher of the Doubleday Science Fiction Book Club (SFBC) came to speak at NJSFS (the New Jersey Science Fiction Society). Some of her comments were fairly interesting, so I will relay them as I remember them. The SFBC is one of seven Doubleday book clubs (Asher said she likes to think of it as one sucker on the book club tentacle of the Doubleday octopus). It is the largest of their specialty clubs (they also have a military history club and the Mystery Guild, for example). I don't recall if it's larger than their Literary Guild, though. The seven clubs have a membership totaling over one million, and since the mailing list that the SFBC sells (which includes expired members) is about 250,000, one can conclude that the SFBC itself has about 200,000 members. (The actual figures are secret, apparently.) There was a lot of discussion about the books that are selected. There are several considerations. The books are printed "letter-press" rather than offset, so that books relying on strange typographies or complicated interior illustrations have little chance of being chosen (alternate selections can be printer offset in special cases, but the main selections cannot be). Most are issued as hardcovers, though they occasionally issue a trade paperback. (There is a new LeGuin--I've forgotten the title--that will be a trade paperback, slip-cased with cassette.) Because of the "negative option" method used (see below), and because so many of the members are minors, the main selections usually do not include "adult" (sexual) material. Doubleday has no desire to get hauled into court for sending unsolicited sexual material to minors. Several of us (including me) decried the swing from science fiction to fantasy that we see the SFBC taking. There appear to be several reasons for this. One, fantasy sells (according to Asher, and she should know). Two, there is a lot more fantasy available than there used to be. (Look in your local Waldenbooks or B. Dalton if you don't believe this.) Three, and this is my observation based on an extended conversation, Asher likes fantasy better than science fiction, and Arthurian/high fantasy better than dark fantasy (including horror, but also works by such authors as Glen Cook and Stephen Brust). While she buys the obligatory science fiction (no one would dream of not offering the latest Asimov or Niven), she tends to go for the new fantasy authors more than the new science fiction authors. This is, of course, somewhat self-fulfilling. As more fantasy is offered, people who prefer fantasy join the SFBC because they can get more of what they want, while people who prefer science fiction leave (or are dropped) because they can't find what they want. (If a member hasn't bought a book in a year, they are sent a letter asking them to return an enclosed card if they wish to remain a member. This way the SFBC doesn't keep spending postage on people who never buy anything.) Someone asked about how well the book club editions hold up over time. Asher replied that they are printed on acid-free paper, so should last reasonably well. This provoked a stir of surprise, since Gregg Press and Bluejay Books have been promoting their books as being superior to most because of the acid-free paper. Why doesn't the SFBC mention this in their advertising? Asher said that every time this was suggested, the powers that be at Doubleday insisted that no one would understand what that meant, so it didn't pay to advertise it. If enough people wrote the SFBC and asked them to switch to acid-free paper, they might realize that we *do* know what the stuff is! There has been some discussion about the "negative option" method that the SFBC uses (if you don't reply otherwise, you automatically get the main selections). People have claimed that there is some way to get on a "positive option" list, where you don't have to reply each month. When I asked about this, the response was that there was such a list, but it is reserved for people who have some good reason to be on it. Most of the people on the list, for example, are overseas, where the cost of postage and handling is high enough that the SFBC felt that the default sending of the selections wouldn't be fair (not to mention the problems of getting the cards back to the SFBC back in time to have them not send the selections, if negative option were in effect). I suspect that people who travel a good deal (the military, etc.) could also be put on the list. No one talked about the cost of postage and handling. Everyone knows it's high; everyone knows there's not much that can be done about it. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: ihuxn!gadfly@topaz.arpa (Gadfly) Subject: Re: Silent Running music Date: 21 Aug 85 04:11:08 GMT > I was just watching the closing credits of "Silent Running" on TV, > and I thought I noticed the name of Peter Schikele, the infamous > PDQ Bach scholar, in the credits for the music... ... could you > verify this for me? > > Barry Margolin Yes, Schickele did write it. He does serious stuff every once in a while. ken perlow (312)979-7753 ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken ------------------------------ Date: 21-Aug-85 09:48 PDT From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD From: Subject: Silent Running music To: mit-eddie!barmar@topaz.arpa I have sent the following before, but thought it might again be of interest. I have talked with Joan about her Silent Running music. She told me that if she could, she would destroy every copy of the film...to remove all traces of the music. She was embarassed about her music. I don't know why, I loved the movie and her music. Guess it is like Jane Fonda wanting to destroy all copies of BARBARELLA. --Bi// ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 12:29:59 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Ewoks and victory >From: /Bruce N. Wheelock/, arpanet: crash!bnw@ucsd > Aside from English and French colonial history being full of > examples to the contrary, remember that the Ewoks were not > fighting alone. There was a squad of Rebel troops and a Wookie in > a Scoutwalker. Also remember that if it hadn't been for the Wookie in a Scoutwalker, the Ewoks probably would have lost. At least, that was the impression I got. So I think that the story fits the assumption that "guerillas don't win without assistance from an allied force" (even tho' that assumption doesn't always ring true). William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 12:09:17 EDT From: Baidins@UDel-Huey.ARPA Subject: Empire Troops Concerning the Empire hasn't anyone noticed that the Empire's space fleet and army are filled with incompetents right up the chain of command, including the Emperor, but not Vader and that the ground troops are ill-equipped. First, the ground troops are worthless. True they have blasters and armor that todays armies would kill to get, but notice: 1. No organization better than an armed mob. In the Ewok attack the Imperials go charging off into the woods in no order and get ambushed one by one. 2. No hand to hand combat training. In one scene an Imperial gets a spear in the back in a vulnerable joint. If they were taught to fight back to back and given reasonable weapons for hand to hand like light sabers (they would not even need any real proficiency at them) , any Ewok who closes to close range is dead. 3. No hand grenades. Imperial troopers in pit getting slowly stoned to death. One hand grenade and the Ewoks would be dead. 4. Extremely badly thought out fighting vehicles. Vulnerable to mere logs and extremely unstable on rough terrain. A better vehicle would something like the rebel craft used to fight walkers in Empire Strikes Back, but larger and more heavily armed and armored. 5. In general no use of high explosives and fragmentation, which the troopers in their armor could live through while their lesser armored enemies would die. 6. The officers are not armored which means killing them is easy and causes disorganization of Imperial troops. Second, general incompetence and lack of initiative at all levels. In the last movie, the officer goes off into the woods without ensuring the rebels cannot do anymore damage by either ensuring a sufficient guard or killing his prisoners(remember no Geneva convention). The designers of the Death Stars left a small Achilles' heel a clear sign of incompetent design. In Star Wars, letting an 'empty' pod escape without immediate inspection or destruction is also ridiculous. Finally, the Emperor, himself, who must have gotten lax or an incredible case of hubris, brings the rebel fleet into his grasp only to let it get away. A better solution would have been the immediate destruction of the raiding party (remember he gave the rebel spies the real access codes for the shuttle). Destroying both Luke and Vader at a distance( like blowing the shuttle they come up on), and giving his fleet leave to blow away the rebels with the support of the Death Star. The rebels are extremely lucky to have such an incompetent army as opponents, otherwise they would never have won. ------------------------------ From: cvl!kwc@topaz.arpa (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Critics Date: 20 Aug 85 14:03:07 GMT I do not see why people get so upset when critics say what is good and what is bad, what should be read and what should not. The only critic I have ever found who knows what I like and don't like is me. I have not read any of those "WHAT'S WRONG WITH SCIENCE FICTION" since Part II (I wasn't on the net for part one) and if you disagree with what the writer writes, don't read it. As for whether a story is ART or a GOOD READ, WHO CARES? If you like it, good, you have just enjoyed a fine story. If you don't, you don't. I wish people would stop taking what "critics" think so seriously. Kenneth Crist Computer Vision Lab University of Maryland ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Aug 85 0905-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #338 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 23 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 338 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Cherryh, Films - Fantastic Voyage & Dark Star, Miscellaneous - Critics (3 msgs) & Colonization & Storm Troopers & Star Trek News ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To: rtp47!throopw@topaz.arpa (Wayne Throop) Cc: petrick@lll-crg.arpa (Jim Petrick) Subject: Re: Asimov and scientific revenge (from BTTF time travel Subject: discussion) Date: 22 Aug 85 11:24:29 PDT (Thu) From: Jim Hester The title of Asimov's short story dealing with two men, a gravity nullifier, and a billiard ball as a murder weapon was "The Billiard Ball", and was printed in two collections of Asimov's short stories: "The Best of Isaac Asimov" and the more famous "Asimov's Mysteries". Minor correction: The 'slow guy' was the scientist (a theoritician), and came up with the mathematics for describing gravity. The 'quick one' was just a good field engineer who had become rich implementing the slow guy's ideas. He was no scientist. In fact, he had no understanding of the machine he built. It never occurred to him to wonder about the ultra-violet light that the null-G field emitted (caused by air wandering into the field, coming out at lightspeed, and burning in the surrounding air), explaining it to the crowd simply as a side-effect of the field. The slow theoretician managed to quickly deduce the cause of the light and used it to give the flashy engineer what he had coming, using the engineer's own non-understood machine as the weapon. ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.arpa (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: CJCherryh Date: 21 Aug 85 14:41:59 GMT CJC is a superb writer! Her Elves are unsurpassed... Did I say Elves (plural)? I meant her Ealdwood Elfess truly captures a view of the essence of *being* an Elf that no (NO) other writer has been able to do. D. L. McKiernan cbuxc!dim ------------------------------ Date: Wed 21 Aug 85 16:35:02-GDT From: Alan Greig Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage (Flaky Assumptions) > From: Keith Dale > 1. The miniaturization process begins with setting up an > homogeneous field around the object(s) to be mini'ed. > What kind of field? Well, a field that reacts in equal > force or amount to all points within it. So, Flaky > Assumption #1 is: this field does not behave according > to the inverse square rule. Hang on. Without even going any further than your first 'Flaky Assumption', what's wrong with homogeneous fields ? F(x,y,z,t)=(6,6,6) ok to me as a nice three dimensional time independent vector field. As a practical example air resistance is the same in any direction you care to move in being dependent on the gas density. What about the electric field between 2 charged plate conductors (ok in theory they should be infinite for perfection). Then don't forget the electric field due to a dipole which falls off as inverse cube. What about Gauss ? What about billions of other examples. Or have I missed something entirely ? Alan Greig Computer Centre Dundee College of Technology Dundee Scotland Janet: Alan%DCT@DDXA Arpa: Alan%DCT@UCL-CS.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 85 10:47 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Music in SF: Dark Star Apologies if anybody has mentioned this before, but there is the classic "Benson, Arizona" from _Dark Star_. Speaking of which, was this the first movie to use the "blurred starfield" effect for the jump into hyperspace? If so, that makes two things Lucas lifted from _Dark Star_ for _Star Wars_ (the other being the phrase "commence primary sequence"). Has anybody caught any others? ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 85 11:30:39 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Art vs. Entertainment From: Peter Alfke Davis Tucker: > How many "enjoyable" works have allowed you or forced you to walk > a mile in another man's shoes ("Soul On Ice"), or understand the > nature of death ("The Death Of Ivan Ilych") ...etc... Paul Chisholm: >Do you want a list? Fiction can be "entertaining" in some sense >and still do all those things. Okay here we go ... "Catch-22" is one of the funniest books I have ever read, but it did broaden my understanding of what it means to confront death. Thomas Pynchon's "V." was hilarious in places, engrossing throughout, and parts of it (the African reminiscence) rubbed my nose in what we humans have done to each other. I could probably go on and name several more. There seem to be two untruths going around: (1) ART is boring, dictated by omniscient critics, and pretentious; and (2) ENTERTAINMENT is nonserious, unimportant fluff ingested mindlessly by the masses. Both ART and ENTERTAINMENT are subjective judgments (we've gone over this before), which to a certain extent can be agreed-upon, since most of us share a cultural background. The two concepts are, as Ken Moreau (I believe) put it, orthogonal: either can exist without the other. Part of a critic's function is to describe whether or not the book is (in the critic's opinion, and thus, more likely than not, in yours) Art and/or Entertainment. Any of the four possibilities (except, I think, neither) is perfectly OK -- as long as that's what the book intends itself to be. Books that are written as art, but are patent failures at it, are most often supremely wretched, unless they then become unintentionally entertaining. Failures at entertainment are also usually pretty grim. I'm not sure about books that try to be both but fail at one. (Can't think of any examples right off.) By and large, I would expect that they would fail too, but there may be some that still work in the surviving category. Enough rambling. What do you think? --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 85 23:52:05 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: critics Ken Moreau writes: >But I won't depend on some pompous critic (or even you, Mr. Tucker) >to tell me that some piece of sh** is art simply because I don't >immediately like or understand it. If it is art (and to me that is >a very select, very praiseworthy term), then it will be immediately >obvious to everyone. If it is not, then it fails the test, and no >critic can sneer at my taste enough to make me admit it is art. I hope that you don't mean that, once you've decided that it doesn't meet your qualifications for art, then you cannot be persuaded. If you do, then you are being rather narrowminded. Good critics persuade, they do not browbeat. I disagree that great art is immediately obvious to everyone. You yourself said earlier that you don't believe that there are absolutes in art, so how can you be sure that anyone else will agree with you when you say something is great art? If it's only great art if everyone agrees, then I imagine that nothing is great art. What I find most disturbing is your contention that, if one doesn't immediately recognize the value of a work, or if a book isn't a good read, then it is not a great work of art. The reason I find it disturbing is because I know, from my own experience, that this isn't true (for me, at least). Therefore, I suspect that you are denying yourself some of the deeper pleasures of reading in favor of shallower and more transitory pleasures. (I could, of course, be wrong. Perhaps you have read books like "The Sound and the Fury" and "Ulysses" and been immediately blown away by what good reads they were. I had to work at understanding and appreciating them, but I don't regret a moment of that labor.) If, of course, you really don't care about such books, if you only are interested in reading works which appeal to you from the moment you pick them up, that's your prerogative. My objection is that, despite your claims that you don't believe in absolute standards, you impugn those who disagree with you, by suggesting that they are pretentious, that they have less understanding of art than you, that they don't really like what they say they like, etc. If you are secure in your beliefs, than perhaps a less emphatic and sneering tone would be better. And Power.wbst@Xerox.ARPA writes: >Finally, as you can see by my definition, it doesn't include >reviewers, archivists, or SF-librarians. A close examination of his entire posting suggests to me that Mr. Powers' definition of Critic (his idea of a insulting term) is any person making comments on a work of art whose comments he consistently dislikes. I, for one, do not agree with his article, nor with his veiled suggestion that Critics have caused writers in the mainstream of fiction to lose their inventiveness. True, there is little enough originality on the bestseller list, but if one looks, one can find interesting, stimulating, original writing outside science fiction. For those who haven't tried looking, I suggest doing so, and will be happy to provide a list of authors to start with. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Thu Aug 22 12:47:00 1985 From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson) Subject: A Critic's Point of View A few words of background information, so I won't be just a bunch of colored pixels on your screen: For the past six years I have been the Senior Reviewer of the Midwest Book Review, the second largest book-review organization in North America; I've had over a hundred book reviews published in dozens of different magazines, and I *enjoy* reviewing books. Consequently, I take a little interest in discussions like the one we've been having on the net, and I particularly take notice when people start comparing critics with things like slime covered slugs vomiting on themselves... (Although I should admit that I consider myself a "reviewer" instead of a critic, so maybe that doesn't mean me after all.) First, a lot of people are way off base by implying that critics rip apart each and every thing they review. Wrong-o, guys -- if you keep track, I think you'll find that critics give good reviews at least as often as they give bad ones. The problem is, most good reviews are relatively innocuous and nobody remembers them. . .but if you see a bad review of a book/film you liked, it's bound to arouse your ire and make you say some of the things that have been popping up on the net. I personally find that I give a good review to books usually more than 80% of the time -- that's not to say I think 8 out of 10 books are terrific, but that I am fairly good at selecting books I'll enjoy. Second, although a few pretentious critics may think so, the world really has no omniscient standard by which to say whether a critic is "right" or "wrong" -- YOU, the reader, have to select a reviewer/critic who is right for your own tastes. Different reviewers reflect different attitudes; I know what *I* like, and that is the only criterion I can use to judge a book...if you like the same types of books I do, then you'll probably agree with most of my reviews. If we have very different tastes, I'd suggest you find a different critic who will be more useful in helping you decide which books you'll like. But don't say I'm "wrong" because you don't agree with what I said about a particular book. For example, I find that I usually agree with Roger Ebert about films, and I usually disagree with Gene Siskel. However, a friend of mine has the exact opposite reaction. We don't fight over which critic is "right" -- she listens to Siskel, and I listen to Ebert, in order to make our decisions. I know a lot of people have a knee-jerk resentment toward critics, in which they show a snobbishness at least equal to what they perceive on the part of book reviewers. But the world just isn't black and white like that, and please stop using us as scapegoats. Kevin J. Anderson ------------------------------ From: warwick!simon@topaz.arpa (Simon Forth) Subject: Re: STL colonization and exponential growth Date: 20 Aug 85 17:10:39 GMT ndd@duke.UUCP (Ned D. Danieley) writes: >>From: Keith F. Lynch >> Not a problem. Warwick!simon@topaz ignores time dilation. >>Whenever a solar system gets too crowded, people can travel to an >>arbitrarily distant point in an arbitrarily short time by >>travelling close enough to the speed of light. Or they could use >>suspended animation and travel slower. > >But time dilation does not slow down the people who are still in >the solar system and reproducing, and they are the problem. Unless >you assume that you can ship out an arbitrarily great number of >people. I think Ned has got the point, that the volume of colonized space is growing as the cube of the distance travelled from the centre, whereas the new space being explored is growing as the square of the distance from the centre (if you assume uniform expansion in a sphere.) So eventually you will run foul of an unfavourable square/cube ratio. It would be useful if someone could produce some figures for this. I have hazy recollections of some figures that said that, if Mankind started to colonize nearby planets and that these planets also send out planets then the whole galaxy would be colonized in 20000 years (This figure I am not sure about,) but certainly less time than it takes light to cross the galaxy. Simon Forth. Dept of Computing. University of Warwick. Coventry CV4 7AL. UK {various backbone sites in US}!mcvax!ukc!warwick!simon ------------------------------ From: sun!jsc@topaz.arpa (James Carrington) Subject: Re: Decline and fall of the StarWars Empire Date: 20 Aug 85 19:46:41 GMT >On this silly subject, what did the armour in Star Wars ever do? >All I can recall is that it provided comm facilities, blast >protection for the eyes, and looked funky. Did any armour *ever* >turn a shot? What's If you look carefully, or have the aid of a slo-mo button on your vcr, you can see a shot bounce off the helmets of two Rebel defenders aboard Leia's courier ship, before ricocheting into a wall in SW I (or IV, actually). That's the only instance I know off, and note that it happens with the /lightly\ armored rebels, not the almost-encased imperials. James Carrington Associate Engineer (Co-op Student, UCBerkeley) Workstation Division NFS Department Sun Microsystems Inc. 2550 Garcia Ave. MS1-40 Mountain View CA 94043 415-960-7438 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Aug 85 08:36 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Star Trek News Flashes Cc: Trek^.wbst@Xerox.ARPA, maida.yktvmv%ibm-sj.CSNet@CSNet-Relay.ARPA Creation Con LA: Creation Con has apparently scheduled a new LA area con, October 12-13 at the Sheraton Premier in Universal City. Leonard Nimoy will be there. Gene Roddenberry, Star Trek's creator, will be getting a star on Hollywood Boulevard. The ceremony will be on September 4th at 12:30. The star will be at 6683 Hollywood Blvd. The Star Trek Welcommittee has a new department: PERSONAL COMPUTER CONSULTANT. Allyson Whitfield-Dyar, 461 North 'M' St., Oxnard, CA 93030. Will answer questions from fans who wish to use their personal computer in their fan activities. Please enclose a self-addressed-stamped envelope. Lisa Wahl Star Trek Welcommittee ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Aug 85 0931-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #339 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 24 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 339 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Tolkien, Films - Fantastic Voyage & Battlefield Earth, Television - The Final Countdown ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Re: Fate of the Protectors of Home Date: 21 Aug 85 14:55:24 GMT > From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA > As I remember the story, (and this may be faulty) the Home > Protectors were going off to fight the Pak, at the speed of light. ...at nearly the speed of light... > that time the Puppeteer's had not sold the secret of going faster > than the speed of light yet. So the Home Protectors spent two > hundred years traveling to fight the Pak, hopefully beat the Pak, > and then another two slightly less than 200 years because the Pak were cming towards them as well... > hundred years to come back. This would explain the lack of > interaction between the Home Protectors and the human race. They would have come back before Ringworld. I don't have all the dates here, but when Truesdale left Home there hadn't been any contact with the Kzin. The man-kzin wars took easily a couple hundred years (thanks to time dilation), before the Puppeteers sold the Hyperdrive to Homo Sap... quite a while later Bey Schaeffer was born (there were multiple centenarians who had been in the wars)... Bey Schaeffer had been around for a while when Louis Wu was born (he was his foster-father, see "Borderlands of Sol"), and Louis was 200 years old at the time of Ringworld. This comes to well over 400 years after Protector. > Maybe the next story will be about how thousands of Home > Protectors deal with the human race? Known Space was pretty big by this time. Maybe the next story will be what happens when the results of the pak/human fight are discovered? Peter (Made in Australia) da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: okamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Okamoto) Subject: Re: Protectors Date: 22 Aug 85 17:40:21 GMT > From: Dave Godwin > 1. Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would > live in a free atmosphere. This is how Roy Treusdale got > turned into a Protector. > 2. The virus got all over the Home colony. The entire elligible > population changed into Protectors. The rest died. Home was > then used as a staging area to fight the incoming Pak. First, > the Home boys ( sorry ) built fake cities and stuff all over > the planet to sucker in the Pak scout ships. The scouts were > destroyed, and the Home team ( real sorry ) left this part of > space to fight of the main Pak fleet. No more word is ever > heard from Truesdale or his followers. Sorry, but what the Brennan-monster grew was a strain of the tree-of-life virus that would grow in a human. Thus, all that Brennan needed to do was to insure that either his or Truesdale's corpse reached Home. > 4. Lots and lots of centuries later, we have Louis Wu. In > 'Engineers', he reminices that he's lived on lot's of worlds. > Lots of years spent on Earth, and enough years on various > colony world to make him feel like a native. On of these he > mentions is Home. So apparently Home is resettled. > > So, questions that I don't see clear answers to: > > 1. How were the Home Protectors able to clean up the atmosphere > of Home ? And did they also remove all trace of their > presence ( fake cities, etc ) from same ? I guess they had to > have, but this is a bit heavy on my suspension of disbelief. The reason that there was no tree-of-life virus when Home was resettled is that there were no more humans left. No humans, no virus, no more protectors. Also, "Protector" implies that Home was devastated by fusion bombs from the Pak scouts. Granted that the rather large craters are hard to hide... > 2. The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors. If they > hadn't, humans would know. Remember the epilogue? Truesdale sent off the pulse iff they lost. Though this raises some interesting questions. What happened to the Pak scouts? Maybe they both lost -- doomsday weapon? > None of them but Truesdale had descendants left anywhere at > all, so after the Pak were destroyed, there would have been no > reason to live on. Well, Brennan said that the will to die was mostly cultural. They could generalize their paternal instincts to the whole human race. But I think they all died, Pak and Homers. > 3. Small detail question. The stl Ramships found on the starport > docks on the Ringworld were built from modified Ringworld > attitude jets, right ? Built by Ringworld natives ( City > Builders ? ), millenia after all the Ringworld Pak died off. > So whose Pak style vacsuit did Louis and Chmeee find on that > one intact starship ? Vacsuits are form fitting. Teela > Brown's ? Pak-style doesn't necessarily mean Pak-shaped. But the City Builders "spilled over the rim walls and found starships". These could be old-style Pak ships (Hope there's no tree-of-life still on board!) As a shameless ploy, let me recommend the Chaosium game "Ringworld". The essays contained within are quite good. Anyone got any solutions to the Grog Problem? Jeff Okamoto okamoto@BERKELEY.EDU ..!ucbvax!okamoto ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Tolkien's dwarf names Date: 17 Aug 85 18:44:09 GMT There I was, reading Snorri Sturluson's "The Prose Edda" (Translated from Icelandic by Jean I. Young; originally written in the 13th century) and minding my own business, when I ran across the following section, where Snorri is quoting from the Sibyl's Vision: There many dwarfs resembling men they made in earth as Durin said. And the sibyl gives these as their names: Nyi, Nidhi, (I'm using dh for a d with slash through it) Nordhri, Sudhri, Austri, Vestri, Althjof, Dvalin, Nar, Nain, Niping, Dain, Bifur, Bafur, Bombor, Nori, Ori, Onar, Oin, Mjodhvitnir, Vig and Ganndalf, [Footnote on Ganndalf: "Sorcerer-elf"] Vinndalf, Thorin, Fili, Kili, Fundin, Vali, Thror, Throin, Threkk, Lit, Vit, Nyr, Nyradh, Rekk, Radhsvidh, And these too are dwarfs and they live in rocks, but the above- mentioned live in the earth: Draupnir, Dogthvari, Haur, Hugstari, Hledhjolf, Gloin, Dori, Ori, Duf, Andvari, Heptifili, Har, Sviar. The following, however, came from Svarin's grave-mound to Aurvangar in Joruvellir, and from these have sprung Lovar; their names are Skirvir, Virvir, Skafidh, Ai, Alf, Ingi, Eikinskjaldi, [Footnote on this says "With-oak-shield"] Fal, Frosti, Fidh, Ginnar. There were footnotes on some of the others, but these were the only ones that seemed to have meaning to Tolkien fans. So if any of you want to write about more dwarves, here are some likely ones... Dennis McKiernan, are you in need of any for your world? Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and rhyming. Little did I know! Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.arpa (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Fantastic Voyage fix Date: 20 Aug 85 17:39:58 GMT >From: Keith Dale >Steven Litvintchouk wrote: >>The problem with "Fantastic Voyage" is that they could never >>figure out a consistent relationship between the principle of >>miniaturization and the conservation of mass. > >How about this as an attempt at an explanation? The book explanation was that the ``field'' altered the relationship of the people (ship, rubber suits etc) to the space in which they were embedded, so that they appeared to be smaller, with less mass etc. (It's the old rotate-them-through-hyperspace trick, 99!) That seems whole lot easier to buy than this ``convert them to energy so they're smaller'' idea. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: The "Battlefield Earth" movie Date: 22 Aug 85 18:28:49 GMT I recall recently seeing a posting asking about a possible "Battlefield Earth" movie, and another posting from one of the well-known critics on the net saying that he had had no news of such a film. At that time I thought I had thrown away what evidence I had in this area, so I did not respond. I just moved my terminal and discovered the relevant piece of paper, so here is some info: What I have is a contest entry form, which I picked up off a bookstore display-stand which held copies of BATTLEFIELD EARTH many months ago (either late 84 or early 85). It is titled "Battlefield Earth Movie Contest". The entry deadline was 15 March 85, with the drawing to be held 31 March 85. It was sponsored by "Bridge Publications, Inc.; Salem Productions, Inc., and 'participating official Battlefield Earth radio stations'". The contest seemed to be directed to other areas of the country than here (St. Louis, MO), and I never heard anything of it except seeing this display. The entries were divided up in a strange fashion -- I never saw such a thing before. There are a number of radio stations in major markets listed as "Group One" (seven stations), then 33 or so stations in smaller markets listed as "Group Two", and finally the rest of the world is lumped as "Group Three". The rules say that people living in the areas covered by the listed radio stations should send their entries to that station; everyone else (that is, "group 3") should send the entries to an address in LA. Prizes are to be awarded thusly (exact quotes from form, plus my comments in [brackets]: One winner from each Group 1 radio station will be selected at random from the entries submitted. Each Group 1 winner will receive the opportunity to perform as an extra in the movie Battlefield Earth *plus* a free round trip airline ticket to the Colorado location (courtesy of Frontier Airlines), five days lodging at Denver's beautiful 19th Place Hotel [I assume that is a name, not a rating! :-)], and a cash prize corresponding to the call number of the sponsoring station (not to exceed $200). Listen to your official station for details. [I have no idea what a "call number" for a radio station is -- if they mean the frequency, it doesn't sound like much of a prize -- since they limit it to $200, it must be that they count kHz as pennies (for AM stations) or MHz as pennies (for FM) -- so, if the station is on 1570 kHz, you win $15.70. If an FM station is on 90.7 MHz, you win $9.07. Big deal... :-) WM] One Semi-Finalist from each Group 2 radio station will be selected at random from among those entries received. Each Group 2 semi-finalist will receive a cash prize equal to the call numbers of their sponsoring radio station (not to exceed $200) and will be eligible to enter the drawing for the finalists as described below. One Semi-Finalist will be selected at random from all the entries received in Group 3. This semi-finalist will receive a cash prize (not to exceed $200) and will be eligible to enter the drawing for the finalists as described below. Thirty-four finalists will be drawn from all of the Group 2 and 3 semi-finalists and awarded prizes as follows: A) Two first place prizes: the opportunity to perform as an extra in the movie Battlefield Earth and receive a free round trip ticket to the Colorado location courtesy of Frontier Airlines and five days lodging at Denver's beautiful [they said this before; I wonder if "beautiful" is part of the joint's name? :-)] 19th Place Hotel. B) One second place prize: A trip for two to the movie's Colorado location and dinner with the movie's Producer. [They have GOT to be kidding... "Producer" was even capitalized in the original... Let me guess -- third prize is *two* meals with the Producer...:-)] [I just noticed -- just a trip *to* the location; you probably have to get back on your own! If they *meant* "round-trip", they would have said that! Jeez!] C) Two third place prizes: A 22 carat gold nugget as featured in "The Banker" from the Battlefield Earth Album. [What? Does "Album" here mean there was a record album, too? This is sounding weirder and weirder...] D) Three fourth place prizes: A trip by limousine to a movie of the winner's choice playing in the winner's city, not to exceed $150 in value. (If no limousine service available in the winner's city, a cash prize of $150 to be awarded instead.) E) Ten fifth place prizes: Collector's sets of Battlefield Earth products (comprising one first edition hardback copy of Battlefield Earth, one B.E. Album, one B.E. Cassette, one B.E. T-shirt, and one 1985 B.E. Calendar). F) Ten sixth place prizes: A 1985 Battlefield Earth Calendar and one paperback edition of Battlefield Earht. G) All remaining semi-finalists will receive a collectors Battlefield Earth T-Shirt. [Note -- they have conveniently neglected to mention that all winners also get brainwashed by the Scientologists, who have to be running this thing... :-)] One of the fine print rules says "The sponsors reserve the right to omit the characters portrayed by the winners from the final edit of the movie and also reserve the right to substitute a paid five day vacation in Las Vegas (with a value not to exceed $1000) for the first and second place prizes in the event the movie is not produced in 1985 for any reason or in case it becomes logistically impractical to transport the winner to the filming location." [Interesting...] The address to write for info is: Battlefield Earth Movie Contest 1414 North Catalina St. LA, CA 90027 ***End of quotes from contest form*** This has to be one of the weirdest contests I ever heard of... Not only are the prizes extremely odd, but the winner-selection process actively discriminates in favor of residents of the "Group 1" seven major metropolitan areas (which happen to be LA, Chicago, NY, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and "DC/Baltimore" [as they put it]). Doesn't that violate a Federal law or FTC or FCC regulation? Note that they continually refer to the movie's "Colorado location", but never define it better -- it must be near Denver (and the "beautiful 19th Place Hotel :-); maybe all this info can help the movie mavens on the net to track down more data about this otherwise mysterious movie. Note to the ARPA SF-Lovers moderator -- since all this contest info is outdated, and the contest is over, it should be safe to post this on the ARPANET. [I can't believe I typed in all this stuff...] Regards, Will Martin UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 85 22:03:11 EDT From: Jamie.Zawinski@CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: The Final Countdown (time-travel on TV) Next thursday at 8:00, ABC will be broadcasting a movie called THE FINAL COUNTDOWN. It's (nano-review, no spoilers) about a heavily armored aircraft carrier which slips through some sort of wormhole and finds itself off the coast of Hawaii in 1941, just before the attack on pearl harbor. The crew has a very difficult time deciding whether to interfere with history or let things progress naturally. Though it doesn't really explain how they got there or how such paradoxes are possible, it's a very good movie. Just thought you'd want to know... -- Jamie [jwz@cmu-cs-spice] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Aug 85 0902-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #340 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 340 Today's Topics: Books - Robinson & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Yates & Research Alpha, Films - Bladerunner & Buckaroo Banzai & Battlefield Earth, Music - Rhiannon, Miscellaneous - Critics (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Spider Robinson. Date: 21 Aug 85 14:38:02 GMT The only thing I don't like about Spider Robinson is that he doesn't realise he's a better writer than Heinlein. Probably better than RAH ever was, certainly better than what Heinlein's putting out now. Peter (Made in Australia) da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.arpa (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names Date: 23 Aug 85 11:15:17 GMT >Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the >dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and >rhyming. Don't let them hear you call their names silly! But Dain (no, no relation to the one of the Iron Hills) tells me that the alliteration and rhyming was purposeful. Listen again to some of their speech; while harsh, it has a certain beauty as well. Some of my best friends are Dwarves, Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@maryland ------------------------------ From: ut-sally!barnett@topaz.arpa (Lewis Barnett) Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names Date: 23 Aug 85 15:28:28 GMT > There I was, reading Snorri Sturluson's "The Prose Edda" > (Translated from Icelandic by Jean I. Young; originally written in > the 13th century) and minding my own business, when I ran across > the following section, where Snorri is quoting from the Sibyl's > Vision: ...here followed a list of Dwarf names, many identical or very similar to the names Tolkien used for his dwarves. For those interested in etymology, Lin Carter wrote a pretty interesting book about the Lord of the Rings trilogy; don't quote me, but I think the title was "Tolkien: Behind LOTR," or something like that. There is a chapter devoted entirely to names and where JRR got them (including the dwarf names mentioned in the referenced article above...) and one on great swords, etc. There's probably some stuff on heroic fantasy in general, and how it relates to the classic epics, but it's been seven or eight years since I read the book. No guarantees that it's still in print. I don't recall seeing it in stores lately. Lewis Barnett, CS Dept, Painter Hall 3.28, Univ. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712 barnett@ut-sally.ARPA, barnett@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,harvard,seismo,gatech,ctvax}!ut-sally!barnett ------------------------------ From: SCIRTP!scott@topaz.arpa (Scott Crenshaw) Subject: Re: DIASPORAH by W. R. Yates Date: 22 Aug 85 19:17:06 GMT > - An agent is supposed to pass himself off as Jewish, but isn't > briefed on the laws of kasruth (kosher). This isn't so unbelievable. About ten years ago, some Mossad (Israeli secret service) agents tried to pass themselves off as Satmar hassidim. They dressed in the traditional clothing of hassidim, but were so obviously ignorant of law,custom and traditon that it was obvious they weren't religious, much less hassidim. Considering the ignorance of many contemporary Jews wrt. Jewish law, this agent who tries to pass himself off as Jewish doesn't seem farfetched. ... (Scott Crenshaw @ SCI Systems , Inc.) {akgua,decvax}!mcnc!rti-sel!scirtp!scott ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 85 10:04:19 PDT (Friday) From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Research Alpha by A. E. van Vogt & James Schmitz In nebulas.txt from Rutgers there is mention of a story "Research Alpha" by A. E. van Vogt & James Schmitz. Does anyone know where the story appeared? Also did any of James Schmitz's stories on Telzy appear outside of Analog? Thanks. Henry III ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jon) Subject: RE: Bladerunner Soundtrack? Date: 23 Aug 85 00:58:12 GMT Well, I've gotten a few replies so far, and this one sums it up... >The original soundtrack was played on electronic instruments (a >synthesizer?). The "soundtrack album" was re-orchestrated for a >normal orchestra. The "tune" is the same, but it doesn't sound the >same. Unfortunately, it's all that's available. (If it's any >consolation, it's usually considerably cheaper than most soundtrack >albums,probably because it isn't really an original soundtrack >album.) > Evelyn C. Leeper > ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl Pity. I guess, I'll have to watch the movie to hear the REAL music. Thanks for those who gave the info, though. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa:trudel@ru-blue.arpa uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@topaz.arpa (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Banzai Newsletter has happened! Date: 19 Aug 85 04:09:57 GMT We had a newsletter-stuffing party at the Banzai Institute yesterday (17 Aug), and those of you who have joined the Blue Blaze Irregulars will be getting them soon. 12 pages of information on Buckaroo Banzai's doings and the work of the Institute. If you want a copy, send a letter to The Banzai Institute West Coast Offices 20th Century Fox P.O. Box 900 Beverly Hills, CA 90213 Every letter they receive is (in effect) a vote for "Buckaroo Banzai against the World Crime League", so write in and get your goodies ... and do the world a favor! Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: The "Battlefield Earth" movie Date: 23 Aug 85 12:23:49 GMT >C) Two third place prizes: A 22 carat gold nugget as featured in >"The Banker" from the Battlefield Earth Album. [What? Does "Album" >here mean there was a record album, too? This is sounding weirder >and weirder...] As a matter of fact, there was a record album. I saw this on the stands about four months after the paperback came out. I didn't risk buying it, however (it went for $9.98!). And it didn't stay on the racks very long, though I doubt that that was because the thing sold like hot-cakes (or even cold-cakes). Did anyone ever actually HEAR this thing? the Shadow ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ From: x!wjr@topaz.arpa (Bill Richard) Subject: Re: SF in music (Stevie Nicks) Date: 22 Aug 85 22:32:10 GMT boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >While it's true that the name Rhiannon is a reference from Welsh >myth, the lyrics from "Rhiannon" don't seem to me to be about such. I more or less agree that the lyrics of the song aren't obviously about witchcraft I remember seeing the group performing on one of the old music shows (remember Midnight Special, et al) and Nicks introduced the song with "This is a song about a witch." William J. Richard @ Charles River Data Systems 983 Concord St. Framingham, MA 01701 Tel: (617) 626-1112 uucp: ...!decvax!frog!wjr ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.arpa Subject: Re: Art vs. Good Reads Date: 20 Aug 85 20:41:00 GMT (Somewhat Lengthy Mild Flame) Some of the intemperate postings regarding Art vs. A Good Read are ridiculous. The two have little to do with each other; a book that is good "art" may be a lousy "read" and vice-versa. Both are subjective judgements based on (usually) different sets of criteria. For me, a good read is defined as being accessible and interesting (plot, ideas, and/or characters). Art, on the other hand, has a set of generally accepted (but arguable and certainly not universally :-) accepted criteria that include something like: - Form of the work - Resonances between the work and the culture and other works of literature (Whatzza matter, don't believe the humanities have their own valid recursive logics?) - Texture and style of writing - Artistic composition of plot and characterization - Etc. I'm winging the definitions -- I'm not really into the literary criticism game -- but to deny that valid esthetic criteria (albeit qualitative, not quantititative) exist for Art is as simple minded as denials of mathematics, nuclear physics, or any other complex reality that requires education and insight to understand. (Oh, but Art doesn't have numbers? Well you can't use numbers to meaningfully distinguish a schmuck from a saint, but they both exist -- even if we don't have perfect agreement on who is who.) Ergo, the works of Larry Niven are great reads, I enjoy them immensely. But great Art? James Joyce and Thomas Pynchon have written great Art -- I also enjoy them -- when i *think* i understand what is going on -- but they are easy reads for nobody I know. (I have to admit, I prefer Art that is more accessible, but just because it's difficult/complex doesn't mean it's pointless, pompous, or anything else.) Part of the problem about discussing Art in SF is that very little great Art has been written. Close shots in my book include Canticle for Liebowitz, The Left Hand of Darkness, and....um, let me see, oh, maybe Lord of Light, but that's a sentimental favorite of mine that probably really falls short.... Some great short stories, too. SF has produced many more memorable *good* books, everything from Startide Rising, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Neuromancer, etc., and a considerable number of good reads as well as mounds and mounds of dreck. (Sturgeon's Law: 95% of everything is crud. Except fantasy, which I also enjoy, it's 98%). As noted previously on this net, part of the problem about perceptions of Art in SF stem from the fact that most SF criticism is either hopelessly academic (for useless M.A.'s in Lit.), incestuous (you wash my back and I'll wash yours), uselessly destructive, or (most often) uninformed and uncritical -- everything's great, there are no standards. ("If everybody is somebody, then nobody is anybody." Gilbert & Sullivan.) In summary, it seems to me that to either make Art the litmus test for evaluating SF, or alternately, kicking Art in the balls as being humbug, get in the way of having one's mind open to the ideas and entertainment that SF can bring. (Sorry for getting carried away on a ramble on my introduction to the net. I've been reading the net for 2 months -- nobody had told me about the net for the preceding 18 mos. Will try for more brevity next time. from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet UUCP: jimb at CCA/IMA (I'm told this works) usenet: !decvax!cca!ima!jimb (maybe this works) ARPA: ima!jimb@CCA-UNIX.ARPA (maybe this works) ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 23 Aug 1985 05:42:01-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Anti-Art Snobbery > From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson) > I will say, though, that I have never heard it described with > anything less than respectful awe. It won the Nebula Award, which > is given by the Science Fiction Writers of America to the work > which the *writers* feel is the best piece of literature published > in the past year (and it won the Nebula back in the days when the > award did mean something). I think that anybody who says that > DHALGREN is a poorly written, plotless piece of trash should maybe > ask themselves if there is even the remotest chance they might be > MISSING something? Would it be presumptuous of me to ask what Alternate Earth you're from? In *this* universe, DHALGREN lost the Nebula to Joe Haldeman's THE FOREVER WAR. Delany won a sum total of four (4) Nebulas out of the 80 or so that have been issued. He must be highly thought of in SFWA, eh? At last reckoning, the writers who've garnered the most awards (Nebula and Hugo combined) are Harlan Ellison, Ursula LeGuin, Poul Anderson, and Fritz Leiber. What does that tell you? And what does "when the award did mean something" mean? Doesn't it mean anything anymore? Is it no longer an award chosen by sf writers for the what they feel is "best piece of literature in the past year"? Or is it that they aren't choosing what *you* think is the best? And does their being writers mean that their opinions are worth more than mine? If so, then their opinions are worth more than your's, too, which means that if you don't like their choices, it must be *your* opinion that's wrong. I never got very far into DHALGREN, myself. I thought it was twaddle. So am I now branded as an anti-Art snob despite the fact that I liked BABEL-17, EMPIRE STAR, THE BALLAD OF BETA-2, THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION, and NOVA? (No, I didn't like TRITON, either.) There is a problem with the concept of Art that no one's brought up yet. The Art snobbery has always been such that no one can dislike a Work of Art without being branded as an anti-intellectual fool. If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see why it's an exemplary work." It never occurs to the Art snobs that someone could simply *not like a Work of Art for valid reasons*. The only way someone can get away with not liking a Work of Art is to say "It was an interesting experiment that failed" rather than "It was a piece of self-indulgent nonsense". The end result is that no one is willing to tell the Emperor about his new clothes. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!oyster@topaz.arpa (Vicious Oyster) Subject: Re: "Anti-Art" snobbery" Date: 23 Aug 85 14:41:59 GMT kanders@lll-tis-a writes: >Hooray for Davis Tucker finally taking to task those people who >practice "Anti-art" snobbery -- those who snort with derision at >something which requires you to turn on a 5 Watt bulb over your >head and use a few brain cells. Perhaps this category includes >those people flaming at "awful" DHALGREN ("Gawd, this stuff makes >me *think* -- yukk, give me Edgar Rice Burroughs anyday!"). I think you may be missing the point. Seems to me that people are reacting to the "art snobbery" of Tucker, rather than promoting "anti-art." I stopped reading the Problems postings after they turned from intelligently and carefully thought-out criticism to random name-calling and self-aggrandizing bleating (somewhere around part II). I happened to have enjoyed Dahlgren *and* several Lord of the Rings clones ('though I draw the line at Burroughs :-), and I suspect that the vast majority of SF-Lovers readers, if not SF lovers in general, are equally omnivorous. >Too many ray guns, rocketships, and bug-eyed monsters makes me >afraid my brain will atrophy! Perhaps, but we have a shining example of what happens to those who read only so-called "artistic" literature. - joel "vo" plutchak {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!oyster P.S. My preferred method of dealing with Tuckeresque postings is to 'n' past the original posting and linger over the inevitable flames. But then again, I only do it that way for my own enjoyment, so it's not an artistically valid thing to do. God, how I wish Art ruled my universe! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Aug 85 0926-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #341 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 341 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & Moorcock & Niven & Robinson & Sheffield, Films - Return of the Dead, Miscellaneous - Star Wars (2 msgs) & Critics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive. Date: 21 Aug 85 12:57:24 GMT >That fate would likely await us also. Their culture would >undoubtedly be much different from ours, and their technology would >be suited to their culture. For us to thus take advantage of their >advanced goodies, a dramatic cultural upheaval would be required. > >Does anyone know of any Sci-fi that deals with this issue? > >Oh well enough for now. I would be interested in titles/authors >that have tried to approach the issue of cultural interaction >between very different cultures. CJ Cherryh has some books dealing with this sort of thing, the FADED SUN trilogy deals with three very different races trying to interact after the end of a generations-old war. In the Chanur books, the hani are still dealing with the after effects of being turned into a space-faring race in a generation. This is brought out a little more in the most recent book, CHANUR'S VENTURE. One of my favorites is HUNTER OF WORLDS; it's about a race that barges into human space in order to settle an old score, using humans (and other beings) as pawns in their game. the Shadow ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE DREAMING CITY / ELRIC Date: 24 Aug 85 00:53:48 GMT THE DREAMING CITY by Michael Moorcock Lancer, ?, ?. ELRIC by Michael Gilbert and Craig Russell Pacific Comics, Issues 1 through 4, 1983. A review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: A fairly simple little novel makes a very good comic book by changing very little in the transition. One can expect more from a novel and rarely gets more from a comic book. A good while ago there was a small version of Mark Leeper who was a big fan of comic books. Then when I hit the ripe old age of twelve I gave away a collection which, if sold today, could pay off a nice piece of my mortgage. (As usual for such stories, there was a mother involved in the premature liquidation.) Then I did not read more than a comic book a year until relatively recently. What I did read convinced me that comics were maturing a little but were still silly and banal. Recently a friend who is a big comic fan got me reading a few. My conclusion is that my distaste for super-heroes rules out the vast majority of comics sold. At some point, I will probably write a general article about my conclusions about comic books. A little more specifically, however, while I was gone on a recent trip Evelyn bought me the first four issues of a 1983 series published by Pacific Comics, ELRIC. This series is an adaptation from the novel THE DREAMING CITY by Michael Moorcock. I read the comics and the novel almost in parallel. My conclusions? It is far better to read the two in parallel than to read either by itself. Moorcock's writing style is ideal for adapting as a comic book. THE DREAMING CITY tells one story, I suppose, but even more so it is a string of short stories, not unlike THE ODYSSEY. None of the stories is particularly good by itself though. The whole of the book is much greater than the sum of its parts in that it makes a reasonably good story taken as one long adventure with a number of interesting ideas and sequences. This stringing-together of sequences, incidentally, is why it adapts so well as a comic book. Each sequence is about the right length to base a 28-page comic book on. And the comic books cut out some of the verbiage but very little of the story or its ideas. THE DREAMING CITY is far better adapted as a comic book than it could ever be as a film. Moorcock has a really good imagination when it comes to visual images, but I doubt that they would have come across as well without some of the stylized artwork of the comic book. Michael Gilbert and Craig Russell (the artists) have a style that is a little hard to get used to, but once you do it is quite imaginative. In some ways it is reminiscent of the work of Aubrey Beardsley. Sometimes it is simple; other times it is out-and-out florid. Reading the book I might have noted quickly in passing the description of characters like Dr. Jest, but the comic's pinched depiction is constantly carried along with the character in the comic in a way that would have been impossible in the book. THE DREAMING CITY is not a very complex book. Yes, it is a little more complex than a Conan story. Elric does go on a search to find his own identity; I doubt Conan ever would. But just in case you missed that aspect of the character, Moorcock has Elric say things like, "I feel that [this] happiness cannot last unless we know what we are." The book has some subtlety, but little profundity. It was made to be a comic book and Moorcock is probably lucky that it was adapted as well as it was. Rate the book a 0 and the comic book adaptation a +2 (due in part to low expectations) on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 85 13:03:13 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: Protectors From: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA Evolution or the protectors probably did for the Tree-of-Life virus in Homes' atmosphere. Of course, it is probably a government cover-up, . Also, there would be no hosts if all the humans died, and it didn't adapt to other forms of life. The time between Brennen and Wu is 500 years, according to Niven. There is a time-line in "Tales of Known Space". Enough time for Truesdale & co. to finish off the Pak, but still be heading in towards to core to find out what was going on. Remember they know of no FTL drive. Could they have turned any of the Pak ? No. As soon as the Pak saw a respectable fleet leaving Home, they would have scattered all over. T&Co. must have devised a better drive & better weapons while on Home. There is a Niven short story called "The Warriors" which describes the first meeting of Humans and Kzinti. The Kzinti had a 'gravity' drive, while the human ship was driven by a photonic drive. A gravity drive would be the logical next step, for the protectors. With a better drive, and weapons, the Pak are exterminated, and Truesdale comes back to the Solar system, or does he continue towards the core? They split forces, no doubt. Most of the Protectors die off, or go exploring if they can except the human race as a whole as descendents. So we have a godfather or ten again. Did humanity win the Kzinti wars because of protector help? Yes! The RingWorld....built by who? The portion so far explored is enhabited by mutated Pak forms. 250K Years may be enough for that. Why intelligence in so many forms? Earth had roughly the same conditions, and more competition. Are human protectors, other than Teela present? Probably. City builders, etc, would have converted over. Why so many intelligent forms? Why so few on earth? Is it just a question of space? The human protectors have heard about Ringworld through their contacts in human government (Halrloprillalars' longevity drug was stolen while in government hands!) and mounted an expedition. What would they be doing now? Teela Browns LUCK prevented her from acting in true protector fashion. She simply made room for the inhabitants of Known Space in the fall out shelter. By drastic means, true. Niven can write a few books about what ELSE lives on the Ringworld! What is going on in the other Mars? How about a tree-of-life that is compatable with boosterspice? I think that most of the human protectors of Louis Wus' day are exploring the ringworld. Clark H. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 85 17:50 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Spider Robinson and Good Literature Okay, I'm behind in my net reading here, and something tells me that better folks than I have flamed you for your editorializing, but I am in the midst of reading Calahan's CrossTIme Saloon for the first time and I feel that IT demands that I reply. True, the book is not as DEEP as The Brothers Karamozof, it is not as 'literate' as The Seven Pillars of Wisdom, it is not as LONG as War and Peace, and it is not even as verbose as Donaldson. True, it is small an thin, and paperback and has neat pictures on the cover. True, it is self-indulgent (somebody had to like the puns that went in there). And, true, it is (noses up, sniff please) Science Fiction-- which everybody who is anybody knows is never rahlly Good Literature . . . >>>> BUT <<<< This does not mean, never has, and I pray, never will, that it cannot contain some TRUTH. Robinson portrays real human characters with real human problems who get through life because in some little corner of the galaxy there are a few other real human (and maybe other) characters who are willing to help, sympathize, relate and LISTEN to their problems. Robinson speaks to 'The Human Condition' in a voice every bit as real as any of the other greats you have listed. I worry about the type of person-- all too well represented among the cognoscenti of this and every other age-- who fails to see wisdom, beauty, and TRUTH in simplicity. One can like or dislike Robinson's style. One can even agree or disagree with my assesment of him here, but find it the highest form of intellectual hypocrisy to write him off because he isn't taught in college English courses. It's at least as bad as writing off 'Great Art' because it IS taught in college English classes. Great Literature encapsulizes Truth. Therefore, Truth is where YOU find it. Not where somebody-- no matter how many degrees he or she may have; no matter how many other somebodies may agree-- tells you it is. Chris Miller B.A. (soon to be) Ph. D. Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA P.S. By the way, in case it isn't clear, I agree that shunning art because it is art is barbaric and phillistine. Just don't take the attitude too far. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 85 12:39:58 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: BETWEEN THE STROKES OF NIGHT by Charles Sheffield After due consideration, I decided that there was nothing I needed to quote to respond. Sheffield is one of the (few) writers I see no need to defend, although I think I could do a reasonable job. I read this when it was serialized in Analog. It is my considered opinion that: a. Sheffield is trying something new. b. This is merely giving his readers the "bare bones" on which he intends to construct a whole series of future stories, in much the same way as we have MacWhozis and the spaceship pilot stories. As a fan of Sheffield, I am willing to wait and see whether he fleshes these bones. Others need not do so if they do not choose. It takes all kinds. You pays your money, and takes your cherce. Patiently, Paula ------------------------------ Date: Sat 24 Aug 85 00:01:32-PDT From: Stuart Cracraft Subject: (brief) movie review I walked out on the new "Return of the Living Dead." It is garbage. Dan O'Bannon's script-writing, which I detested in Dark Star, is still detestable even now. How he gets funding for these farces is beyond me. About the only thing that was good in the period of time I stayed with the movie was the sight of a beautiful young woman dancing totally nude. Even that bit of spice couldn't hold me there to try and stomach the rest of the movie. URK! Stuart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 85 03:22:34 PDT From: lah%ucbcory@Berkeley (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Ewok Technology... I'm going to do a bit of research on some relevant topics before I post, but meanwhile, a thought: "I would expect a modern army to take at least a day or two to get it right." A modern army, yes. But the modern army is not, for example, the Roman Legion, and in addition, siege tactics went out with the English Civil War. Of course they wouldn't know how to do it! A few hints about what I'm going to be looking for: * anything known about the building of Stonehenge * anything about siege tactics, specifically how long the engines took to build * various things known about bronze/early iron age technology in general, as this is about the level of sophistication I would guess the Ewoks to have reached. Give me some time (a week or so, I'm doing my own writing, you know!) and I'll produce a decent study (in 300 wds or less!). Regards, Leigh Ann PS Yes, I've been promoted, so don't bother writing me about it...:-) ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.arpa (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Date: 23 Aug 85 20:12:55 GMT As far as the ineffectiveness of the imperial personal armor is concerned, one need only postulate a recent advance in blaster technology that renders that armor ineffective, but better armor hasn't been developed or isn't in general usage, or the regulations requiring the wearing of said armor haven't been relaxed. If you think about it, military history could provide many similar cases, from ancient times right up to Vietnam. How long did it take for the Medieval knights to adjust to crossbow, and the English longbow? How long did it take infantry tactics to adjust to the machine gun? Of course it would be nice to see if the armor works when they get around to making the earlier stories. ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: "Anti-Art" snobbery" Date: 23 Aug 85 11:13:43 GMT > From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson) > Hooray for Davis Tucker finally taking to task those people who > practice "Anti-art" snobbery -- those who snort with derision at Etc., etc.... Science fiction is, as you say, the literature of ideas. Unlike other forms of literature the background has prominence over the characters. Thus it is that very bad works of literature are very good SF. The occasional exceptional author can produce a book that's both good SF and "art". It's my opinion, totally unsubstantiated by statistical analysis of course, that the % of good literature in SF is probably about the same as in other forms of fiction... it's just that, since SF has other, orthogonal, standards to meet that may take precedence over the quality of the writing (look at Robert Heinlein, even his good stuff), certain books get raved about by the SF community that the mainstream wouldn't even consider reading. This gets up the critics nose, since he doesn't realise that there might be other criteria for judging a work, so he posts abominable reviews such as the one referenced above. No, folks, we're not anti-art. We just have other things to look for than superb characterisation and brilliant prose. If the book has these as well, great. But it doesn't stand or fall on them. Peter (Made in Australia) da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Aug 85 0952-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #342 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 342 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Forward & Niven (3 msgs) & Robinson & The Twilight Zone & The Flying Sorceror, Films - Title Request, Miscellaneous - Critics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 01:15:31 pdt From: stever@cit-vlsi (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Tolkien's Dwarf Names Poul Anderson uses the same names (albeit spelled differently) in "The Broken Sword", a classic about dark elves and cursed blades. Awhile ago I asked whether anyone has the 1954 edition of TBS and I still haven't got any responses.. The intro to the 1971 edition comments on major changes, and I'd really like to know what happened. -steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Aug 85 13:42:44 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY by Robert Forward >From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) >This book is no DRAGON'S EGG. It's readable, but no great shakes. >. . details, usually based on scientific fact. . . design of his >interstellar craft, about the nature of his aliens, the Flouwen, >and about planetary physics. He even has a few ideas about >robotics. . . He does not have a mechanism for bringing his >travelers back to Earth. . . his humans don't really have a whole >lot to live for. Short of the development or acquisition of an FTL drive, *any* interstellar voyage will be one-way. So what? Where's the ticket office?!!! >The limited technology also tends to make the first part of the >book drag since it would take our humans a while . . . >It seems unlikely that the Flouwen's environment would challenge >them sufficiently to have the supremely advanced mathematics that >Forward claims they have. Sounds as though there have been additions to the manuscript since it was serialized in Analog a few years ago. I enjoyed it then, and felt that Forward had made considerable improvement over Dragon's Egg in the matter of narrative flow, and also that his human characters were more believable. I found the Flouwen delightful--alien analogs of dolphins. And I think that water-dwellers would NEED to be far better intuitive mathematicians than we. If/when we learn to communicate with our own intelligent water beasts, we may be able to make substantial advances in math in relatively painless fashion (so long as our hubris doesn't hinder us). I thought Rocheworld was a truly marvelous place; one I'd like to visit (as opposed to the Egg, which would be not only impossible but also useless due to time-differentials). On behalf of colors, Paula ------------------------------ From: ihuxi!okie@topaz.arpa (Cobb) Subject: Re: Protectors Date: 23 Aug 85 13:51:43 GMT > From: Dave Godwin > 1. Brennan invented a breed of Tree-Of-Life variant that would > live in a free atmosphere. This is how Roy Treusdale got > turned into a Protector. I recently reread "Protector" also... and I thought Brennan developed the variant virus to survive in a human being. To my way of thinking, that doesn't necessarily mean it could live in a free atmosphere. If this is the case, then I can see the virus disappearing from Home eventually, thus making it viable for resettlement. Agree? Disagree? > And did they also remove all trace of their presence ( fake > cities, etc ) from same ? I guess they had to have, but this is a > bit heavy on my suspension of disbelief. Remember, Pak think big. They (supposedly) built the Ringworld. Cleaning up Home would be *peanuts* compared to that, and necessary if they wanted to keep any true Pak that might escape from the battle with the Home Pak from eventually getting back to Earth. > 2. The Home Protectors beat off the Pak Protectors. If they > hadn't, humans would know. So what happened to the winners ? > Did everybody die ? "There are some things man was not meant to know." (a quote from Niven) Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't, but are out there building more Ringworlds. Maybe they tried to go back to the Core worlds to root out (excuse the pun) the remaining Pak, to eliminate any further threat to Earth from that source. Some questions just never get answered. On the subject of the vacsuit in the ramship on the spaceport ledge... I don't know. I'll think on it. B.K.Cobb ihnp4!ihuxi!okie ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@topaz.arpa (Brad Templeton) Subject: Protectors go Home Date: 23 Aug 85 04:00:00 GMT I suspect the only conclusion one can draw is that the Human protectors died off or went away. After all, the Pak were the most detirmined, intelligent and powerful race around, and human protectors were even smarter. We're talking about guys who could spit in a Thrint's face and turn a Pupeteer world upside down. So would they stand for the Pupeteer experiments on mankind? The wars with Kzin? The botchup job repairing the Ringworld? No chance. If they were around, they would be interested and involved, even if secretly. So perhaps they're all at the centre of the Galaxy, STOPPING the core from exploding? Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ From: utai!wjr@topaz.arpa (William Rucklidge) Subject: Re: protectors Date: 15 Aug 85 19:37:02 GMT > Speaking of protectors, how could Beowulf Sheaffer become a > protector in "Down in Flames"? DIF takes place about the same > time as The Ringworld Engineers, in which Louis Wu is well over > 200 years old. Beowulf is Louis's stepfather, so he is closer to > 300...way WAY past the maximum age to become a protector! Ideas? > marty (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) Well, as I remember (it's been a while) nowhere in the Known Space history has someone who is on boosterspice eaten tree-of-life root. Seeker did when he and Teela found Mars, but he was not on boosterspice, but the Ringworld immortality drug, which is based on tree-of-life. So, it is not ruled out that someone who is chronologically older than the cutoff but who is on boosterspice so that their physical age is about right will die from eating tree-of-life root. Beowulf should have no problems... William Rucklidge University of Toronto UUCP {ihnp4 utzoo decwrl uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!wjr CSNet wjr@toronto BITNET wjr at utoronto ------------------------------ Subject: re: Robinson Date: 24 Aug 85 18:28:29 PDT (Sat) From: Dave Godwin NO, no, you misunderstand. When I stated that Robinson doesn't write 'five-guys-etc' stories, I was responding to a certain person's rag on these stories as 'garbage'. Of course Spider writes Callahan's Bar stories. My point was that the label 'FGIABetc' was insufficient as a description. Perhaps we should begin using the suggested method of inserting facial expressions as comments . This would cause less confusion over all < cough, gag >. And, in my opinion, not all the Callahan stories are simple entertainment either. 'The Time Traveler' from Crosstime Saloon, and that story whose title I can't remember ( it starred Pyotr and the Lady MacBeth ) were real real good stuff. I'm a bit of a music person myself, and when Jake described the event that led into the story itself, I cried. Hey, so how do you spell a raspberry ? Dave ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.arpa (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE TWILIGHT ZONE: THE ORIGINAL STORIES Date: 24 Aug 85 00:57:32 GMT TWILIGHT ZONE: THE ORIGINAL STORIES edited by Martin H. Greenberg et al Avon, 1985 A book review by Mark R. Leeper Rod Serling had an eye for a good short fantasy story. He had to. Week after week he had to tell the American public a good story, and he usually succeeded. THE TWILIGHT ZONE was a showcase for the best science fiction and fantasy writers of the previous decades. Writers like Richard Matheson, Charles Beaumont, Jerome Bixby, Damon Knight, and Ray Bradbury were the sources for the better segments of THE TWILIGHT ZONE. Thirty of these source stories have been collected by Martin Greenberg, Richard Matheson, and Charles Waugh. It seems a bit self-serving that eight of the stories and the introduction are by Matheson, but then perhaps second only to Serling himself, Richard Matheson was the strongest creative influence on the better seasons of the series. The selected stories are spotty and a little uneven. On one hand, Bixby's "It's a Good Life" is a very fine story and it is my choice for the best episode of the series. Then there's the over-rated "To Serve Man." I was eleven when I saw it and even then I knew the ending didn't make sense. Matheson's "Steel" is a bitter mood piece which echoes Serling's REQUIEM FOR A HEAVYWEIGHT. Matheson's "Little Girl Lost" deftly combines science fiction and horror. These are all stories from more memorable segments and now it is pretty tough to read them without picturing the TV version. At thirty cents a piece in paperback they are an expensive souvenir of the series, but it is a collection that has been needed for years. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: CJC@psuvm.BITNET Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive. Date: 24 Aug 85 02:25:50 GMT "The Flying Sorcerers" by David Gerrold & Larry Niven is a very thorough account of what happened when one enthusiastic Terran anthropologist went to a rather harsh world with a strong-minded and intelligent, but technologically primitive race. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 03:53:30 PDT From: Kevin Carosso Subject: Unknown Stupidity.... Name that TURKEY... As I'm writing this, I'm watching some random late night flick and wondering what it could possibly be. It's a REALLY BAD early sf flick. Black and white. Story seems to be emminent doctor designs spaceship (called the RMX). Spaceship departs with 6 or so crew-members, one of whom is the standard "lovely but cold female scientist" stereotype. They land somewhere (the moon, I think) and find humanoid civilization that has nuked themselves back into the stone-age some time ago. Barbarians kill 3 or 4 disposable crew-members and the rest escape and head back to earth, only to run out of fuel and make a melodramatic, if somewhat meteoric, impact on Novia Scotia. Oh yeah, almost forgot -- female scientist thaws out as they reenter... "Oh (sob) hold me"............................(SPLAT) yuck... Effects were awful. Lotsa footage of old V2 test flights. They wander around the moon (or whatever) wearing WWII gas masks, for Christ's sake! A "meteorite" storm that has to be seen to be (dis)believed. Worst dialogue I've heard in a LONG time, too... Oh, also, I'm SURE I saw a young version of Jim Rockford's dad (Rocky) in the crew of of the RMX. (yeah I'm a Rockford fan) So, as I'm lacking a TV guide, can anyone pin a title on this turkey? ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Anti-Art Snobbery Date: 24 Aug 85 19:25:01 GMT >From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >In *this* universe, DHALGREN lost the Nebula ... Delany won a sum >total of four (4) Nebulas ... He must be highly thought of in >SFWA, eh? At last reckoning, the writers who've garnered the most >awards ... are ... [list] What does that tell you? What is it supposed to tell him? For that matter, what is it supposed to tell the rest of us? >I never got very far into DHALGREN, myself. I thought it was >twaddle. So am I now branded as an anti-Art snob despite the fact >that I liked ... [list of Delany's other works] If feeling like a persecuted 'anti-Art snob' is enjoyable, be our guest. But don't you think this is just a little bit paranoid, Jerry? >There is a problem with the concept of Art that no one's brought up >yet. The Art snobbery has always been such that no one can dislike >a Work of Art without being branded as an anti-intellectual fool. WHO sez 'the Art snobbery' (whatever that's supposed to be) has always been such? The endless stream of fantasies about how imaginary Critics are hounding the members of this group and the SF world in general is starting to get a little old, people. OK, Jerry, I'm calling you on this one: who exactly in this group or outside it has said that anyone who dislikes a Work of Art is an anti-intellectual fool? I can't recall even Davis Tucker going this far. If you knew anything at all about the Wonderful World of Criticism, you'd know that Critics disagree about which books are worth reading. Often and loudly. >If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply look >down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing >something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see why >it's an exemplary work." It never occurs to the Art snobs that >someone could simply *not like a Work of Art for valid reasons*. Pure pony diarrhea. You want us to say maybe, "OK, Jerry, you say Dhalgren is twaddle, so it must be twaddle; after all, you're NOT a critic?" Saying you don't like it/couldn't get into it so there mustn't be anything there is hardly valid criticism. Fact is, a lot of people LIKE Dhalgren and find it a challenging and rewarding work. If you have valid reasons for thinking that these people are all Art Snobs who like Dhalgren only because some mysterious conspiracy of Critics told them they should, please let us know about it. I've never gotten into Ezra Pounds "Cantos" because I find them rough going and more than a little self-indulgent. But I'm also secure enough to recognize that some people have put a lot of work into reading the "Cantos" and are deeply rewarded for their efforts. It's just not my cup of tea. Why do you and some of your cohorts of a similar mind in this group refuse to grant us "Art Snobs" a similar courtesy? >The only way someone can get away with not liking a Work of Art is >to say "It was an interesting experiment that failed" rather than >"It was a piece of self-indulgent nonsense". The end result is that >no one is willing to tell the Emperor about his new clothes. Either statement implies failure. The difference is that the first is sympathetic to the effort of an author to produce an intricate and serious work (800+ pages in the case of "Dhalgren"), and the second is hostile to the author's having missed the mark. Who's calling who a fool, Jerry? Anyone who's made a serious effort to write something other than a posting to the net knows what an intellectual and emotional drain the production of fiction can be. It means a refusal to compromise and a constant effort to be completely honest with oneself. The author must be his own severest critic if he's to produce the best work he's capable of. The effort and love that went into the writing of "Dhalgren" is obvious. If you think Delany failed, at least give the poor slob a little sympathy for having tried his best. It's obviously not a piece of hack work. Making a decision to devote your life to the arts is a lot like becoming a tightrope walker. You study theory and you practice. But one day you're going to have to face the wire alone, and know that below you in the darkness the audience is waiting for you to stumble and fall. Most turn back before that point. Those that make the difficult decision are to be admired for their determination and courage, even if they fail to make it to the other side. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Aug 85 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #343 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 28 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 343 Today's Topics: Books - Hubbard (2 msgs) & Niven (3 msgs) & Salmonson, Miscellaneous - Storm Troopers (3 msgs) & Critics & Aliens (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: whuxlm!wws@topaz.arpa (Stoll W William) Subject: Re: The "Battlefield Earth" movie Date: 25 Aug 85 22:20:27 GMT > As a matter of fact, there was a record album. I saw this on the > stands about four months after the paperback came out. I didn't > risk buying it, however (it went for $9.98!). And it didn't stay > on the racks very long, though I doubt that that was because the > thing sold like hot-cakes (or even cold-cakes). Did anyone ever > actually HEAR this thing? I bought it, and it is really awful. Nice conversation piece, but that's it. If there's a movie, you can bet that this will NOT be used in the soundtrack! Bill Stoll, ..!whuxlm!wws ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 85 09:36:00 PDT From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- Battlefield Earth --- The "Brainwashed by the Scientologists" comment in the msg. about the (admittedly bizarre) Battlefield Earth contest may-or-may-not be justified.... I honestly don't know if the L. Ron Hubbard that writes science fiction is the same one that wrote the scientology book. I brought this up to a friend of mine once, and he seemed convinced that they were not the same person (I remain unconvinced....that is a fairly unique name....). Does anyone know the truth on this one? Anyway....I read the book, and it was actually a very good book (In my own opinion...), and I didn't see much brainwashing in it...it seemed like good, old-fashioned, science fiction. (Although I could have been caught by the brain washing, and therefore would not be qualified to make such a statement.) I don't think that it is fair to accuse someone's writing of containing brainwashing just on the basis of their beliefs. Some of their ideas may get through......but has any of the soviet fiction you've read made you want to go out and vote communist? Keep your remarks onto a more facual level (hmmm....we are discussing fiction, though....) when you are impugning someone's ethics. -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb NOTE: I DO think that that contest sounded a bit bizarre....I just don't think that the author or the producers of this (alleged) movie deserved that particular comment.....sounds a bit too much like predjudice &/or outright bigotry.....I like to judge people by their actions...not some label that someone places on them.....but that is another rave, for another time and place. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 03:53:30 PDT From: Kevin Carosso Subject: Known space I was wondering if someone out there would be kind enough to post a complete list of Known Space books. I've read a lot of it, and liked it, but have never been sure if I've read everything Niven wrote in Known Space. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 11:43:13 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: Still more on Protectors *** WARNING -- CONTAINS MILD SPOILERS OF "RINGWORLD ENGINEERS" *** I think it is wrong to assume that protectors would automatically try to kill any other intelligent species they encountered. Recall that the protectors who built the Ringworld included planetary "maps" of Earth, Mars, Down, Kzin, etc., stocked with natives of same; the protectors knew about them, but let them live. This leads to a couple of other interesting points: 1. The "map" of Earth continued only non-human primates; thus, Ringworld was built *before* the Pak colony reached Earth. 2. The "map" of Down contained Grogs; thus, the protectors could handle Grogs! It is true that Jack Brennan killed all the Martians, but remember, they tried to kill him first! marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Aug 85 13:59:43 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Niven's Known space: hyperdrive for sale > From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA > that time the Puppeteer's had not sold the secret of going faster > than the speed of light yet. > From: baylor!peter@topaz.arpa (Peter da Silva) > before the Puppeteers sold the Hyperdrive to Homo Sap... Whoa! Let's get our facts straight. The Outsiders sold the secret of hyperdrive to Homo Sapiens. The Puppeteers did have something to do with it (read "Ringworld"), but the actual sale took place between Man and the Outsiders. ****** SPOILER WARNING! ****** But now that I think about it, it seems that the ending of "A Gift from Earth" is inconsistent with "Ringworld". In "Ringworld", we are led to believe that the Puppeteers used a Starseed lure to force a meeting between the Outsiders and Man, knowing that Man would buy the FTL drive and then win the Man-Kzin war. But, at the end of "A Gift from Earth", the outsiders pick up the trail of a ramscoop robot and compute its destination (or was it source?) and say to themselves, "Ahhh, new customers". Oops! William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 85 09:31 EDT From: ------ Operator Subject: Jessica Amanda Salmonson A word of enthusiasm for Jessica Amanda Salmonson, her excellent anthologies, and the Tomoe Gozen saga. First, Tomoe Gozen is not just an invention of the author, she is a figure from Japanese legend and mythology finely drawn and interpreted by Ms. Salmonson. The saga of Tomoe Gozen is classic tragic heroic fantasy, in the tradition of the Odyssey. It is not a grandmother's tale, though my boys enjoyed parts of it as bedtime stories. There are at present three Tomoe Gozen books, though I can recall only the title of the first and second books. They are _Tomoe_Gozen_ and _The_Golden_Naginata_ respectively. Ms. Salmonson has written another novel, _The_Swordswoman_, which begins with the mental breakdown of a martial artist after she kills an opponent during a match. She finds herself transported to another dimension/world with a feudal Japanese culture. Although I do not feel this book is as well written as the Tomoe Gozen saga, it is worth reading. Ms. Salmonson is the editor of, among others, _Amazons_ and _Amazons_II_, two excellent anthologies of heroic fiction about women. One of my favorite pieces (in _Amazons_, I believe) is "Sister Light, Sister Dark" by Jane Yolan, who recently published the hauntingly lovely novel _The_Cards_of_Grief_ and who is known mainly for her children's books. Ms. Salmonson has also published work by a Canadian author based on African legend and mythology about women warriors who ride rhinos into battle. Frostflower and Thorn stories have also appeared in her anthologies. I highly recommend Jessica Amanda Salmonson's work, both as editor and author, especially for those tired of stereotypical portrayals of women in science fiction and fantasy. jesse (ops@ncsc) ------------------------------ From: proper!elric@topaz.arpa (elric) Subject: Re: Decline and fall of the StarWars Empire Date: 24 Aug 85 23:27:56 GMT davidk@dartvax.UUCP (David C. Kovar) writes: >On this silly subject, what did the armour in Star Wars ever do? >All I can recall is that it provided comm facilities, blast >protection for the eyes, and looked funky. Did any armour *ever* >turn a shot? What's the point of wearing the stuff? Well, the design of the armor appears to be Ablat armor. In theory the armor vaporizes when hit and carries away the enegry of the laser. (The armor becomes less effective after each it). But in truth, the Stormtroppers are cannon fodder and the real purpose of the suits is so you can tell goods guys from bad guys... Elric (Only imperial storm troopers could be so accurate....) ------------------------------ Date: 25-Aug-85 22:37 PDT From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD From: Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms Cc: Baidins@UDel-Huey.ARPA I suspect that the armor only protects against getting a bad sun burn. That seems to be the only thing it stops! --Bi// ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 85 8:40:36 EDT From: Baidins@UDel-Huey.ARPA Cc: WBD.TYM@office-2.ARPA Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms The armor protected the Imperials from rocks thrown by Ewoks, for a while, long enough for them to do something if they had hand grenades. If, however, the armor does not actually protect the Imperials from anything else, that is one more example of Imperial incompetence, saddling troops with unnecessary extra weight. A more likely explanation for the armor not protecting is Lucas not thinking about the full implications of properly armored troops. He probably put Imperials in armor to suggest that the Empire is a depersonalized, mechanical force, whose troopers all look the same while the rebel troops all look different since you can see their faces. ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.arpa (Charley Wingate) Subject: The Literature of Ideas Date: 26 Aug 85 03:26:51 GMT peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >Science fiction is, as you say, the literature of ideas. Unlike >other forms of literature the background has prominence over the >characters. Thus it is that very bad works of literature are very >good SF. The occasional exceptional author can produce a book >that's both good SF and "art". It's my opinion, totally >unsubstantiated by statistical analysis of course, that the % of >good literature in SF is probably about the same as in other forms >of fiction... it's just that, since SF has other, orthogonal, >standards to meet that may take precedence over the quality of the >writing (look at Robert Heinlein, even his good stuff), certain >books get raved about by the SF community that the mainstream >wouldn't even consider reading. This gets up the critics nose, >since he doesn't realise that there might be other criteria for >judging a work, so he posts abominable reviews such as the one >referenced above. > >No, folks, we're not anti-art. We just have other things to look >for than superb characterisation and brilliant prose. If the book >has these as well, great. But it doesn't stand or fall on them. I've heard this argument before, but I still doubt its merit. Let me begin by considering a few extreme cases. First, take _Rendezvous with Rama_, by Arthur C. Clarke. This is essentially an essay on how one might go about building an "ark-ship"; plot and characterization are there simply to move the reader about in the spaceship. This certainly is "literature of ideas", but it is far indeed from storytelling. For our second course, let us consider a Heinlein book, in this case, _Glory Road_. Now in a certain strange sense this is still "literature of ideas" (about how to run a galactic empire), but the thing that makes it tick is a fairly standard sort of adventure story, which could just as well been decorated with the trappings of "high fantasy" rather than "high technology". And finally, let me suggest a couple of books which I think could be considered literature in the classical sense: _The Lather of Heaven_ by LeGuin, and _Gateway_ by Fred Pohl. In a sense, both of these are "literature of ideas", since both of them play with the question of "what would happen if we did thus-and-such to the world?" But they are also, I would argue, literature in the classical sense; they both are statements about the nature of man, and attempt a better (or perhaps only different) understanding. It seems to me that the vast bulk of SF (and fantasy in general, for that matter) falls into the first two categories. There are very few authors with a consistent interest in the themes of Literature. It is also true that many critics look down upon SF because (a) people don't have these interests, and (b) stylistically, SF is very conservative, with quite straightfoward narrative style. Nevertheless, I think that it is fair to criticize SF for its shallowness. It's very easy to write essays in fictional drag, or to dress up horror or adventure stories with random SF elements. The bald fact is, however, that few authors are willing even to risk writing something that can hold up to some sort of introspection and analysis. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ From: escher!doug@topaz.arpa (Douglas J Freyburger) Subject: Re: What an advanced race would come far to get.... Date: 26 Aug 85 00:47:00 GMT > From: jcr@Mitre-Bedford > An interesting possibility occurs to me. Imagine a race whose > evolution has been similar to that of Vulcans, from an emotional & > violent past to a very cold & rational present. But this race has > gone even further; they've lost emotion to the extent that they > are now totally unable to create art. How- ever, they can still > appreciate it, and works of art from their distant past are highly > treasured. What would happen if such a race discovered humanity as > we currently are? Might they take us as slaves, forcing us to > create artworks for them? Would such a scheme work? Would the > kidnapped humans create great art? Perhaps so, if suffering > contributes to great art. Or would they turn out trash? Would the > aliens know the difference? Has anyone read anything like this? The "Skylark of Space" series had an advanced alien race that had lost the ability to put any emotion into their music, I think in "Skylark Three", the second of the series. They were really impressed listening to our heroes play the violin, and with their barber-shop quartet singing. These aliens were friendly and non-agressive, though. They didn't want slaves. Here is good old E. E. "Doc" Smith to the rescue with examples. Doug Freyburger DOUG@JPL-VLSI, DOUG@JPL-ROBOTICS, JPL 171-235 ...escher!doug, doug@aerospace, Pasadena, CA 91109 etc. ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa (Lord Kahless) Subject: Re: What to do when the aliens arrive. Date: 26 Aug 85 01:18:08 GMT > Although Western society subjugated natives in four continents, > we weren't as far above them as we would like to pretend. Any > star-voyaging race that finds us will be further ahead of us than > we are ahead of Cro-Magnon man. > Star travelling peoples won't have fought a war in several > generations. They aren't going to re-learn just for us. > /Bruce N. Wheelock/ I see no reason to believe the above statements. Let's look at Earth history. Wars are probably the greatest motivation for technology in mankind's history. Look at how much money was spent for R & D during W W II. Look at the results of the short period between 1935 and 1945. The A bomb, the suborbital rocket, the computer, and radar, all developed during that brief period. Think where we would be now if we had been spending as much money on development over the last forty years as we did during that period. How much closer would we be to the stars? Would we have already gained a foothold on the outer planets? Would we have plans for the stars? I believe an alternate view. A society of ruthless high technology warriors, who remain high technology by putting their resources into R & D and get the resources by warfare. Lord Kahless ucbvax!ucdavis!vega!ccrdave ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Aug 85 0855-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #344 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 29 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 344 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Forward & Hubbard & MacAvoy & MacCaffrey & Niven & Rosenberg & Tolkien (2 msgs) & Wilders & Dr. Lao, Miscellaneous - Storm Troopers (2 msgs) & Art and Entertainment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: teklabs!donch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: How to contact Anne MacCaffrey?? Date: 27 Aug 85 22:50:40 GMT I received a reply some months ago regarding David Brin that said he was working on another novel, uplifting gorillas, I believe. Anyone know where he stands on that piece or any other stories? ------------------------------ From: yetti!oz@topaz.arpa (Ozan Yigit) Subject: Re: THE FLIGHT OF THE DRAGONFLY Date: 20 Aug 85 12:58:29 GMT I agree with Mark Leeper's review. I have read the book about a month ago, and had almost exactly the same thoughts about it. The characters are two-dimensional at best, and some of them thrown in just to "complete" the crew. Although the gravitational characteristics of "Roche's World" is interesting, the rest of the book displays the "Second Book Syndrome". (I.e. Author tries to pull a similar rabbit out of the hat, except the second rabbit is ... er ... just a mock-up..) My rating is the same as Mark's. There are some interesting tidbits in the book, but it is absolutely no match for "Dragon's Egg". Btw: My sincere thanks to the regulars of this newsgroup, for some of whom were kind enough to recommend "Dragon's Egg" to me, upon my query about some good Hard SF to read. Oz Usenet: [decvax|allegra|linus|ihnp4]!utzoo!yetti!oz Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yuyetti] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 85 23:17:19 PDT From: lah@MIRO.BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Nebula valid? Actually, as I understand it, all you need to win the Nebula is enough friends in SFWA... For that matter, would Battlefield Earth even have come close to a Hugo without umpteen suddenly-fans from the ranks of the Scientologists paying for membership and voting for their favourite god? Leigh Ann Cynical ------------------------------ From: dataio!bossert@topaz.arpa (John Bossert) Subject: The Book of Kells (SPOILER WARNING) Date: 26 Aug 85 18:39:42 GMT I liked this book as an easy read. I am confused as to the true involvement of the Book itself. I didn't see the Book playing much of a roll in the story (WHAT!?!) It was John's tracing of circles on the cross that opened the time portal. Granted, John was very studied in Gaellic art, of which the Book was a prime example, and the circles may(?) have been depicted in the Book. Can someone (with greater artistic interpretation than I) show connectivity? Also, how did the Book figure into the climax when John "sings" the Norsemen away? John Bossert Data I/O Corporation Redmond, WA uw-beaver!entropy!dataio!{bossert,usenet} ------------------------------ From: teklabs!donch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: How to contact Anne MacCaffrey?? Date: 27 Aug 85 22:50:40 GMT I want to get in touch with Anne MacCaffrey, best known perhaps for her delightful Dragon series of novels. Does anyone in netland know how to go about contacting her or the author of one's choice? ------------------------------ Subject: Niven Date: 27 Aug 85 18:29:46 PDT (Tue) From: Dave Godwin ( Micro spoiler for those who haven't read Engineers ) Just bumped into another problem with Engineers ( Yeah, I know, big deal ). It is known that Man bought the hyperdrive from the Outsiders. It was sold to the colony on We Made It just in time for the first war with the Kzinti. It was the deciding factor in the war, and gave us the edge there after ( Wunderland Peacemakers aside ). In Engineers, it is told that the Outsiders drifted by the colony when the Starseed they were following was lured there by the Puppeteers. This was to ensure the Kzinti lost big, which they did. But in A Gift From Earth, the epilog describes the Outsider ship finding We Made It by following the course of a rambot that flashed by one afternoon. No Starseeds, no Puppeteers, no nothing. Tell you folks what I'm a gonna do. There's a small con in Fullerton this weekend ( at Griswold's Inn. Call there for more info. ), and Niven has shown up there the last several years. So I'll ask the guy 'Hey, Larry, what gives ?'. But I am starting to see why he once said he's done writing Known Space stories because things have gotten to complex to handle properly. Dave Godwin UC Irvine ------------------------------ From: ihu1m!johnnyr@topaz.arpa (John R. Rosenberg) Subject: Joel Rosenberg' Guardians of the Flame Date: 23 Aug 85 14:19:48 GMT Has volume 3 of this series been written or published yet? Are there any rumors about dates or plots? Thanks John Rosenberg ihnp4!ihu1m!johnnyr ------------------------------ From: spar!platt@topaz.rutgers.edu (John Platt) Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names Date: 26 Aug 85 16:33:11 GMT If anyone is interested in the origin of many of the names in Lord of the Rings, you might want to track down "Languages of Middle-Earth" by Ruth Noel. Or "Mythology of Middle-Earth", also by Ruth Noel. She mentions the dwarf names, and other interesting stuff, too. john platt decwrl!spar!platt (UUCP) or platt@sri-kl (ARPA) ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names Date: 28 Aug 85 08:41:30 EDT (Wed) From: Burgess Allison >Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the >dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and >rhyming. The first few times I read the Hobbit I had no idea this was going on, but when I recently read the Hobbit to my 3-1/2 year-old daughter -- out loud -- I found out that the book is *particularly* well suited to that type of reading, and exceptionally well suited for reading to children. The book is broken into fairly discreet 15-30 minute reading segments (if you're reading out loud to a child). The names and words and descriptions are a fascinating combination of alliteration, verbal whimsy, and (in a few instances of what seem sheer spitefulness) tongue twisters. The concepts and conflicts presented in the Hobbit are also well within the ken of even *very* young children. My daughter enjoyed it, got a lot out of it, remembers it, and (I suspect) will get more and more out of it when she reads it again -- on her own. I have no doubt that the dwarf names were, indeed, invented for their alliteration and rhyming. And I, for one, can see why it was done that way. Burgess Allison ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985 08:07:07-PDT From: heffelfinger%raven1.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: A Princess of the Chameln Just a word of thanks to whoever it was that recommended this book to people who liked "The Blue Sword" and "The Hero and the Crown" by R. McKinley. (Of course I no longer have the original posting.) Cherry Wilders's "A Princess of the Chameln" was definitely a good read. I'm wiped out today because I stayed up so late last night to finish it. The original recommender (henceforth O.R.) found this book in the juvenile section. At Waldenbooks, I found it in the SF/Fantasy section. It is certainly not a juvenile work in my opinion. The O.R. also mentioned two books by Tamora Pierce. These I could not find but now have on order. Herein find another vote for this book if you liked McKinley's stuff. Thanks again O.R. whoever you are... Tracey Heffelfinger Digital Equipment Corp. Greenville, S.C. UUCP:{decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-raven1!heffelfinger ARPA:heffelfinger%raven1.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 25 August 1985 09:13:26 EDT From: Subject: DR. LAO My copy of THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO shows Charles Finney as the author. A friend says an early Bantam copy of MARTIAN CHRONICLES lists THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO as one of the "other books by Ray Bradbury." Anyone know anything about this? ------------------------------ From: proper!elric@topaz.rutgers.edu (elric) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Date: 27 Aug 85 02:12:42 GMT The Empire is a typical decadent power. Used to wasting all threats with great firepower. They got lazy. It also seemed common for commanders to kill subordinates. (ie Vader's attacks on various officers of his own fleet) Not a way to increase moral. Only the fighter pilots seemed to have any skill and good equipment. Elric ------------------------------ From: sesame!slerner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms Date: 27 Aug 85 07:06:29 GMT > He probably put Imperials in armor to suggest that the Empire is a > depersonalized, mechanical force, whose troopers all look the same > while the rebel troops all look different since you can see their > faces. To combine a few of the earlier ideas: There has been a recent advance in blaster technology (blasters are obviously relatively new, since light sabers where in use 1 generation ago), and armor technology has not kept up. Military bureaucracy always takes forever to catch up with reality, so troops are still required to wear armor even though it's ineffective. The rebels, on the other hand, have no resources to waste. Since armor doesn't help against modern blasters, they don't wear any. It is just a useful coincidence that we can see the rebels faces and the empire's lackys look like something out of a cheap toy store :-). Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner {genrad|ihnp4|ima}!wjh12!talcott!sesame!slerner {cbosgd|harvard}!talcott!sesame!slerner slerner%sesame@harvard.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 27 Aug 1985 11:28:07-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: Art and Entertainment (There will be an oral examination at Subject: the end of this lecture -- ;) All works produced with skill, knowledge, or creativity are essentially artistic. A work of Art is generally judged in excellence by comparison with products of similar processes. Sculptures made from marble, from ice, and from old automobile parts can be compared; qualitative judgements can be made and even a ranking can be imposed, based on the standards of good sculpture. A visually entertaining piece is easier to judge than a novel, of course, but the artistic element of a novel is no less apparent. A work of art is judged by its expression -- a good artist conveys the emotional level of his work as well as the technical level. This is what makes a sculpture both entertaining and well-executed. So, to clarify the discussion of Art v.s. Entertainment, we have to define Art as the ability to craft a piece using knowledge and skill as well as creative thinking. And to entertain a subject, the piece has to convey both technical and aesthetic impressions. If you, as the subject, are unfamiliar with the technical requirements of an art form, you are less likely to appreciate the results of the artistic endeavor. On the other hand, a heavy emphasis on the creativity of the artistic process can obscure an appreciation of the work. Artistic quality is the result of both technical and creative technique. Most people appreciate a work for its technical merits, based on the level of knowledge available about the craft. If you are familiar with the literary tenets by which a novel is determined to be a Classic of literature, you will probably find the sheer artistic skill of the author to be entertaining. If you are less familiar with these tenets, then you probably rely on the author's ability to convey impressions and sensations -- the creative level of the novel. But you would not appreciate this level of writing if the author didn't subscribe to certain tenets of literature. Sometimes the author succeeds in conveying the desired impression by selectively rejecting or reversing the rules. For example, see the classic Alice In Wonderland. Vonnegut, Jr. also bends the rules, to achieve a conversational, personal style of writing. Artistic license doesn't mean that the artist can do any anything she wants. The author of a novel must convey some emotions and/or ideas to the reader. Sometimes these are revealed through a plot structure that depends on chronological occurrences. Since this is a controlled, familiar environment, this device is effective for the general reader. But a novel can be based on impressions, sensations, and philosophical beliefs. Take William Faulkner, or Samuel Delany. No clear plot. No logical cause-effect occurrences to provide the reader with the sensation of movement, change, and action. Instead, these authors require you to read differently, to assess the impact of each sentence, each thought, at an emotional and associative level. Similar to a painting by Picasso, Dahlgren asks you to accept the artist's style as the most effective way to convey impressions and sensations. If you can associate the elements in a Picasso painting with your own view of life, if you can understand why all the elements are collected onto one canvas, and if you had some reaction to the painting, then you appreciate Picasso as an artist, his painting as a work of art. Dahlgren has to be viewed with the same intention. In reading most novels, it is apparent from the beginning whether the plot is based on action or on sensations. Since almost all actions and impressions in Dahlgren are strictly from the perspective of one rather confused human being, the action in the novel is certainly of less importance than the thoughts and feelings of this protagonist. But there is action in Dahlgren. Everything happens to the protagonist, and this perspective governs the reader's impressions of the action. Perhaps the greatest difficulty in appreciating this style of writing is surrendering to the emotive influences of another's thoughts and feelings. It is far easier to read a Fantasy novel than Sound and Fury, but you will find that the discipline of reading William Faulkner is rewarded by a greater appreciation for the power of the written word. When can a novel be judged as A Work of Art? The requirements are clear: the author must use skill, knowledge, and creativity in producing the novel. The first novel by an author does not necessarily reveal the author's control over his craft, though it can indicate the level of creativity that the author is able to convey in writing. The bestseller is not always a Work of Art -- The Joy of Sex was really popular for a while, but it's about as innovative as its subject matter. However, an author who proves his craft by displaying skill and creativity in successive works, and whose work becomes popular, even posthumously, can be judged more objectively as an artist. Only time can make a Classic, but each of us contributes to the popularity of any one author or novel. To judge each book as a Work of Art is to limit the power of the Science Fiction genre, by creating a standard for authors to follow. Since Science Fiction and Fantasy depend on innovation as well as effective technique, they can only suffer by attempting to conform to the standards imposed by the readership. Better to judge a book for its own merits, an author for her unique skills, and be aware of artistic attempts that fail. Not all Art is good, but all good novels are artistic. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Aug 85 0917-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #345 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 29 Aug 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 345 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Pohl & Schmitz (3 msgs) & Tolkien & Arabian Nights, Comics - SF in Comics, Films - Godzilla 1985 & Fail Safe & Rocketship XM, Miscellaneous - Puns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 85 11:49:37 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: What Really Happened to the Protectors I think this ties up the loose ends... The protectors from Home go out to battle the Pak protector fleet. Let's assume they win. They can't leave such a source of trouble as the Pak out there, so they head off to Pak (they don't care how long it takes, remember.) Truesdale sends the message to Earth (in the epilogue of Protector) as a way of letting them know that there is still a menace. (Why didn't he just say so? Looking at the actions of the protectors we've seen, they seem to have a love for the devious method and they enjoy leaving puzzles for people.) During the battle with the Pak (or maybe just before or after), the human protectors discover the hyperdrive -- they are at this time far enough from any stars that it could be discovered. Alternatively, they may have encountered an Outsider out there and bought/stolen the hyperdrive. (Why didn't they give the hyperdrive to the rest of the human race? (1) They would have had to reveal themselves; (2) Children can get *hurt* playing with such things!) At the hyperdrive velocity of 3 days/light-year, it will take about 150-200 years for the protectors to get to Pak. Thus, the protectors are out of town during the Man-Kzin wars, the puppeteer manipulations, etc. The protectors arrive at Pak and find the Tnuctipun have just eaten the Pak (except for the Pak protectors -- those hard joints are rough on the digestion!) [If the appearance of the Tnuctipun seems totally illogical to you, see Down In Flames.] The protectors fight the good fight, but being outnumbered millions to one they die to the last protector, except for Roy Truesdale, who escapes. He heads back to known space and realizes it will take bunches and bunches of protectors to fight the Tnuctipun. The trip takes another 150-200 years, so he gets home about the time of Ringworld. Truesdale starts by kidnapping Beowulf Sheaffer and changing him into a protector -- and the rest of Down In Flames follows from here. The suggestion that Sheaffer may have been off in a slowboat for a while, with time dilation keeping him young enough to make the change to protectorship (protectorhood? protectorness?), is quite plausible. And somewhere along the way, we meet the mysterious Opak, the Penguin Protector...(oof! ouch! okay, I give up!) marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 85 12:50:20 edt From: rlk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU To: Hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Protectors OK, let's go for bizarre theories... 1) Teela knew that there were more human protectors around. Why? She knew about Pthsspok, and could deduce what Brennan would do. 2) The human protectors found the hyperspace drive (maybe even the Mark 2). Remember, they are much more intelligent than the Pak protectors. With this, and their patience, they certainly found the ringworld. 3) The human protectors decided that the best interests of the human race would NOT be served by eliminating all possible danger. Rather, they decided that possible threats (puppeteers, kzinti, etc.) would challenge the human race, but not cause any damage. Remember that Brennan did not want the human race to have access to tree-of-life because it would cause internecine warfare? What better way to make a better human race than to unify it with the threat of Kzin, say, but fix the outcome in such a way that hard work by the human race would make it prevail (shades of Doc Smith here...) 4) Teela, of course, knows this (somehow...) She knows that the human protectors exists, and thet they know about the ringworld. For that matter, they have already met and decided upon a course of action...a lucky protector is bad for the human race (without harsh reality to intervene, Teela's instincts would be too strong?). So Teela challenged Louis Wu to fix the ringworld. If he failed, the rest of the protectors would be there to fix it. If Louis couldn't fix it, he wasn't up to the task. 5) Teela, due to her instincts, is really protecting homo sapiens. By forcing Louis to kill 5% of the Ringworld, she is making that space available to humans (5% of ringworld = 3E5 Earths). OK, so this is a bit silly, she could kill all the ringworld, but maybe the other protectors wouldn't let her... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 Aug 1985 08:27:34-PDT From: heffelfinger%raven1.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Fred Pohl and Trilogies About 3 weeks ago I attended the Atlanta Fantasy Fair. One of the guests was Fred Pohl. I attended his talk and thought I'd pass along a gem to you. He was talking about the disturbing trend to take an idea that would make a good novel and stretch it to a trilogy. He then said "Of course some might take my critism with a bit of skepticism since I'm the author of the Gateway/Beyond the Blue Event Horizon/Heechee Rendezvous Trilogy...""I've decided what to do about that... I'm writing a fourth book." Then he went on to read a short section from "Little Lost Heechee". (don't know if that title is going to stick). Fred was delightful to listen to. He's a funny and fascinating gentleman. I'm glad he was at my first SF/Fantasy convention. It's makes it more likely that I'll go to another. Tracey Heffelfinger Digital Equipment Corp Greenvilee, S.C. UUCP:{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-raven1!heffelfinger ARPA:heffelfinger%raven1.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Aug 85 23:44:51 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: James Schmitz: Telzey Amberdon To: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA > Also did any of James Schmitz's stories on Telzy appear outside > of Analog? Certainly! Two full novels: "The Universe Against Her" and "The Lion Game", and a book containing four short stories: "The Telzey Toy". Good reading, and an interesting perspective on psi powers. Unfortunately, "The Universe Against Her" is out of print and I haven't seen the others in book stores recently, so I suspect they are also out of print. Anyone know of any others? William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 85 09:17:00 PDT From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- Telzy Amberdon --- The Telzy Amberdon stories have been collected into three paperbacks: The Universe Against Her The Telzey Toy The Lion Game There may be more. My favorite Schmitz story (novel), however, remains The Witches of Karres -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 85 09:02:07 PDT (Wednesday) From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: James Schmitz: Telzey Amberdon To: The three books, "The Universe Against Her", "The Lion Game", and "The Telzey Toy" are all short stories and novels from Analog 1961(?) to 1973. (San Jose State University has Analog on microfilm from 1961 to 1978!!!) Telzy was first introduced early in the 60's. It was almost five years later when James Schmitz started to write Telzy stories again. There were even a couple that appeared in Analog that I haven't seen in any book. Did James Schmitz write any stories on Telzy that didn't appear in Analog? Henry III ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 85 09:14:00 PDT From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- DWARVES --- Comment on: > Funny thing ... each time I read "The Hobbit" it seems that the > dwarf names are silly and invented for their alliteration and > rhyming. Actually, even in light of the news presented about the old source for these names, it still seems likely that they were made for their alliteration.....that is not solely a motive of modern writers..... -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Aug 85 10:56 CDT From: John_Mellby Subject: Arabian Nights I encourage anyone with an interest in fantasy to read the earlier translations of the Arabian Nights. The 'cut' versions do not fully do it justice. As Peter Reiher's message said, AN is several volumes. The Burton translation which appears to be the definitive one, is 10 volumes plus 6 volumes of 'extra' stories. I originally saw this bound in hardcover at the Strand Bookstore in NYC for $55. Not a bad price for 16 volumes! ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 85 09:28:00 PDT From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- COMICS --- The review on the "Dreaming City" comic, brings up a point. There are more comic companies out there than just DC & Marvel! The GrimJack/StarSlayer/etc. continuity provides a good Science Fiction & Fantasy background (and almost anywhere is available through the city at the center of the multiverse.... whose name I can't remember currently....) Then there is the American Flagg series....a bit strange, but good and definitely Science Fiction. Myself, I like the super-heros too....but there is a LOT more out there......... -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 85 09:30:57 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: Godzilla 1985 From: Dewing.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA A Review Of GODZILLA 1985 by me After all the argument about spoilers this film makes it easy to decide. How can you spoil a Godzilla film? There are two types of Godzilla films 1) Like the original, mean Godzilla tears up Tokyo 2) Most others, good Godzilla saves man from monster(s) but tears up Tokyo. What I liked about Godzilla 1985 was the return to type 1. Godzilla emmerges, munches a few ships, gets shot at and bombed, saunters about Tokyo stepping on things, fights new super weapon, tricked away from Tokyo, beaten (but may or may not be dead). Acting? I suppose you could call it that. Plot? see above. Special effects? Better than the original but to present effects .Dubbing? see previous <>. Now from my above comments you might come to the conclusion that I didn't like it. WRONG. I went to see this movie on opening night because of the reasons above. They made this film to be serious. It's so crummy that it is fun to watch. Recomendation: See it for a good laugh Rating: On a scale of 0 to 10 I give it a i [i=square root (-1)] Song: Go Go Go Godzilla (Blue Oyster Cult)(Not in film) Viewing Sugestion: Turn off brain P.S. It also is worth seeing because the lead-in is Godzilla vs. Bambi P.P.S. On opening night at the 8:15 PM showing the theater was half full (empty?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 85 12:36:48 CDT From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: Re: Unknown Stupidity.... (old SF movie) Speaking of poor special effects, a local station broadcast the accidental-nuclear-attack film "Fail Safe" the other day. Even though they used some really atrocious effects, the film still comes across rather effectively. As far as bad EFX, for example: they wanted to portray a spy-satellite real-time TV picture, and for this they used that old shot taken by a camera looking down from a V-2 or one of the earlier test rockets, taking off from White Sands. They used the end part of the film, where the rocket is tumbling violently so the image spins and oscillates between views of earth and sky, as what the "normal" image from the spy satellite would be; then, to simulate zooming to higher magnification, they showed the takeoff portion of that old film, run in reverse! (What a crock! :-) The other strange aspect of the effects was that they showed all the aircraft-in-flight shots as if they were negatives (it is a B&W movie); this could be just artistic license, though -- however, for some inexplicable reason, when they were attempting to depict a group of fighter planes (the same group each time) they used a motley assortment of shots of various types of fighters, differing each time. Another poor selection was that they used a shot of a fighter launching rockets as one depicting "fighters going to afterburners" -- though you saw smoke trails from the rear of the plane, you also saw them extending to the front, and caught a glimpse of the rockets moving off-screen as the shot began. Considering that stock footage of all sorts of aircraft doing all sorts of things can be easily bought, I see no excuse for such sloppy selection and editing. As I said, though, despite all this evidence of poor craftsmanship, the movie still was pretty effective, providing good tension and suspense (even for someone like me who had seen it several times before). One last point -- nowadays we have seen repeated news stories discussing the "Hot Line", and emphasizing that it really is a teleprinter link, not a telephone line. However, I can see that having a telephone link would be most useful and valuable. Is there a telephone Hot Line circuit available at all, maybe subsidiary to the teleprinter link? Regards, Will Martin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Name That Turkey Date: 28 Aug 85 11:56:17 GMT > From: Kevin Carosso > As I'm writing this, I'm watching some random late night flick and > wondering what it could possibly be. It's a REALLY BAD early sf > flick. Black and white. Story seems to be emminent doctor > designs spaceship (called the RMX). [...] Oh, also, I'm SURE I > saw a young version of Jim Rockford's dad (Rocky) in the crew of > of the RMX. (yeah I'm a Rockford fan) [...] So, as I'm lacking a > TV guide, can anyone pin a title on this turkey? It's called ROCKETSHIP XM, written and directed by Kurt Neumann, starring, among others, Lloyd Bridges and Hugh O'Brian, and --- you guessed it right --- Noah Beery, Jr. (Rockford's dad). The story goes that Neumann filmed this in something like two or three days in order to beat DESTINATION MOON to the theaters. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Filmography is my pastime"> [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to Will Martin (wmartin@Almsa-2) for similar information.] ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 85 08:43:00 PDT From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- puns and art --- As has been pointed out, art is in the eye of the beholder. I believe that a truly great (or bad...) pun IS a work of art, sometimes a great amount of work can be put into just finding the proper delivery (for ex. the Isaac Asimov (I belive) story, Shah Guido G. -- the title of which is merely that of a "shaggy dog" story...not to mention what happens in the story itself). I think a discussion on the artistic worth vs. the "readablity" of a story is fairly fruitless, both qualities being highly subject to personal interpretation. -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb P.S.: I REALLY like the Spider Robinson "pun stories". We need more like them! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Sep 85 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #346 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 3 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 346 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Delany & Niven (3 msgs) & Culture Clash Stories & Dr. Lao (2 msgs), Films - O'Bannon & Worst SF Films Ever Poll, Music - New Kate Bush Mailing List, Miscellaneous - Critics & Arms and Armor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt) Subject: Re: re: Bar Stories Primaevil [sic] Date: 26 Aug 85 03:20:00 GMT I thought bibliography was your business. You flubbed up. At least three of the 36 Black Widowers stories are sf in nature or topic ("The Backward Look" comes to mind). In fact, a goodly percentage of the BW stories were bought by IASFM and F&SF -- I'm almost certain (I don't have the books handy) that F&SF + IASFM have bought more BW stories than EQ or any other mystery magazine! orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 85 07:51:55 PDT From: Dave Suess Subject: Dhalgren, Art, Anti-Art, and L.A. I hate to add to the volume (discussions on likes vs. dislikes, art vs. "anti-art", etc. aren't all that amenable to info-sharing), but I found an aid to reading Dhalgren that helped *me* greatly. After working at the first part of the book, I moved to Los Angeles. Once I started recognizing the locations in Dhalgren as a shattered L. A., I warmed to the imagery and enjoyed it a lot more, and finished (finally!) with an overall satisfied feel. Nothing like picturing L.A. in ruins to add a wistful smile to your day! (If you do move to L. A. to enjoy the novel, don't tell the natives I told you to. Some of 'em get surly about that.) -- Dave Suess ------------------------------ From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA Subject: Re: Protectors and the Ringworld Date: 27 Aug 85 04:41:00 GMT According to Larry Niven Himself, by way of rolf wilson himself (who was once involved in a now-defunct concordance): Ringworld was built and settled by some Pak who lost a war on the Pak homeworld. The Library wasn't involved at all. ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Niven's Known space: hyperdrive for sale Date: 28 Aug 85 14:06:51 GMT > ****** SPOILER WARNING! ****** >But now that I think about it, it seems that the ending of "A Gift >from Earth" is inconsistent with "Ringworld". In "Ringworld", we >are led to believe that the Puppeteers used a Starseed lure to >force a meeting between the Outsiders and Man, knowing that Man >would buy the FTL drive and then win the Man-Kzin war. But, at the >end of "A Gift from Earth", the outsiders pick up the trail of a >ramscoop robot and compute its destination (or was it source?) and >say to themselves, "Ahhh, new customers". Oops! > William LeFebvre I don't think this is a problem. The puppeteers used the starseed lure to pull the Outsiders into human space, then when the Outsiders saw the ramscoop robot they followed it to We Made It. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Known Space books Date: 28 Aug 85 11:44:58 GMT > From: Kevin Carosso > First of all, I was wondering if someone out there would be kind > enough to post a complete list of Known Space books. I've read a > lot of it, and liked it, but have never been sure if I've read > everything Niven wrote in Known Space. WORLD OF PTAAVS THE LONG ARM OF GIL HAMILTON THE PATCHWORK GIRL PROTECTOR TALES OF KNOWN SPACE A GIFT FROM EARTH NEUTRON STAR RINGWORLD THE RINGWORLD ENGINEERS --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Aug 85 14:47:44 CDT From: moorel@EGLIN-VAX Subject: CULTURE CLASH STORIES On the subject of books which concern the clash between very different cultures, I would like to point out several books that illuminate clashes between very different human cultures as well as between humans and aliens. The first is a fairly serious book by Suzette Haden Elgin, called _Native_Tongue_. This book has as its premise that the only way to be completely fluent in an alien language is to learn it as a child from a native speaker. This provides the child with another "native tongue" in which they are able to "think" like a native speaker. The story is set in the near future on Earth, and the culture of the humans in the story is provided with a "history" that gives a reasonable idea of how it might have grown out of our present day world. The interactions between humans and aliens and with other humans are very powerfully depicted, and the book makes some very intense and thoughtful statements about what might happen when humans are more alien to one another than real "aliens". The other books that I would like to recommend are basically a delightful, easy reading set of books by L. Neil Smith, the Probability Broach series. The books are independent of each other for the most part, but in (story) chronological order are: _The_Probability_Broach_, _The_Nagasaki_Vector_, _The_Venus_Belt_, _Tom_Paine_Maru_, and in the same universe, _Their_Majesties'_Bucketeers. These books concern the contact between two very similar parallel universes, one of which is a near-future America very similar to ours and the other is an America in which the Whiskey Rebellion succeeded. The two worlds have very different philosophical outlooks on government, personal responsibility, the environment, space, etc., etc., and the difficulties experienced by people from "our" world in adapting to their culture are fascinating. The books are very light in tone, frequently quite humorous, and read very fast. They're great for any rainy afternoon or just when you're a bit blue. The last book, the one about the bucketeers is not about the human cultures, but is styled after the adventures of Sherlock Holmes and is set on a very well developed world inhabited by trisexual aliens. Read and enjoy! Lynne C. Moore (MOOREL@EGLIN-VAX.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 28 Aug 1985 03:18:55-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: DR. LAO > From: > My copy of THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO shows Charles Finney as the > author. A friend says an early Bantam copy of MARTIAN CHRONICLES > lists THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO as one of the "other books by Ray > Bradbury." Anyone know anything about this? THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO is indeed by Charles Finney. The Bradbury book in question is an anthology entitled THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO AND OTHER IMPROBABLE STORIES, that includes the Finney story (which is a rather short novel). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: DR.LAO Date: 4 Sep 85 05:38:36 GMT >My copy of THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO shows Charles Finney as the >author. A friend says an early Bantam copy of MARTIAN CHRONICLES >lists THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO as one of the "other books by Ray >Bradbury." Anyone know anything about this? I own two copies of the book, in fact. THE CIRCUS OF DR. LAO AND OTHER IMPROBABLE STORIES, edited by Ray Bradbury, a Bantam Book, $.35. It doesn't contain a single story written by Bradbury, though. It does contain a really great story by Charles Finney, as the title promises. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 85 11:39:02 PDT (Wednesday) Subject: Re: (brief) movie review [Return of the Living Dead] From: Peter Alfke From Stuart Cracraft : >Dan O'Bannon's script-writing, which I detested in Dark Star, is >still detestable even now. How he gets funding for these farces is >beyond me. O'Bannon does have trouble getting his movies made. In a recent L.A. Times interview, he described how his script for LifeForce was butchered (even he admitted the movie sucked), and Alien nearly suffered the same fate (the producers couldn't resist sticking their fingers in the pie; at one point they wanted to eliminate the alien entirely and call the movie "Space Trucking". Really!). Several of O'Bannon's other scripts have disappeared without a trace. But did you really dislike Dark Star that much? I'm curious to know why; it's still one of my favorite SF and/or comedy films. It was even fairly realistic in its depiction of a group of people slowly going insane from boredom. [And who could forget the Bomb?] By the way, O'Bannon's rationale for making RotLD is that he feels that the horror genre has been overdone lately, and he wanted to make a dead-on parody of the genre, since the time has come for such a thing. I'll probably see the film in the next couple weeks, and let you all know what I think... --Peter Alfke PS: For an interesting description of how much money there is to be made in never having your scripts made into films, see the new issue of Time. ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt) Subject: Worst SF Film Ever Date: 26 Aug 85 03:24:00 GMT Okay folks, how about the Worst SF movie ever Poll? Send votes for Worst, Next to Worst, and Second to Worst Bad SF Movie Ever to {tektronics | hp-pcd}!orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doug Alan) Subject: Do you want to be on the Kate Bush fans mailing list? Date: 29 Aug 85 08:17:20 GMT Hi! This message is to let you know that there is now a mailing list for the discussion of Kate Bush's music (and any other artistic music or anything else for that matter). Her music doesn't often have much to do with SF, but I'm told that a lot of SF fans are Kate Bush fans (I'm both!), so I figured I'd advertize here. The mailing list is "love-hounds@mit-eddie". Mit-Eddie is on the ArpaNet and on the UUCP net (ihnp4!mit-eddie, allegra!mit-eddie, decvax!genrad!mit-eddie). Send requests to be on the list to me or to "love-hounds-request@mit-eddie". And tell me whether you'd rather receive individual messages or a daily auto-digest. Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA) ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: critics Date: 26 Aug 85 17:30:56 GMT > From: Peter Reiher > Ken Moreau writes: >>But I won't depend on some pompous critic (or even you, Mr. >>Tucker) to tell me that some piece of sh** is art simply because I >>don't immediately like or understand it. If it is art (and to me >>that is a very select, very praiseworthy term), then it will be >>immediately obvious to everyone. If it is not, then it fails the >>test, and no critic can sneer at my taste enough to make me admit >>it is art. > > What I find most disturbing is your contention that, if one > doesn't immediately recognize the value of a work, or if a book > isn't a good read, then it is not a great work of art. Waaaaaiiiit a minute. I saw you palm that card. Immediately recognizing the value of a book is not the same thing as said book being a good read. It is my considered (and I do mean considered) opinion (and I do mean opinion) that to be great art a book must be, first of all, a good read. If something is sufficiently inaccessible that it cannot be read for fun, it fails as art because it will only speak to that small segment of the population that is already prepared to listen; its exploration of (if I may) the human condition is wasted on those who could otherwise get the most out of it. Something that is ONLY a good read is something that I can respect (there's so much that isn't even that), but, for me, great literature must be a good read and more. One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how long is the author remembered? This isn't one hundred percent; not matter how hard I try I cannot convince myself that Cooper was writing great literature. BUT--what writer who is remembered and, more, STILL READ after a hundred years failed to write stories or books that were fun to read? I have no patience for intellectual arrogance, which leads us to: > .... Perhaps you have read books like "The Sound and the Fury" > and "Ulysses" and been immediately blown away by what good reads > they were. I will confess, hanging my head and whimpering, that I have not read THE SOUND AND THE FURY. I have read ULYSSES. It fails as great literature. It speaks only to the intellectual elite. This isn't bad; the intellectual elite could use some speaking to, but great literature must be inclusive, not exclusive. I wish I were good enough that I could have written ULYSSES. But I say that the same way one says, "I wish could afford an elephant." I don't want the elephant, I just wish I could afford one. Nevertheless, I agree with a great deal of what you said. Good writing can be found anywhere, from children's books to the "literary" genre. Perhaps there is outstanding writing in romances, or westerns, or even pornography. But the point about critics is this: I believe that good writing must be accessable. But "accessable" varies from person to person. I also believe that it is reasonable to discuss writing in terms of certain standards that transcend "I liked this" or "I didn't like this." THAT is the role of a critic. A good critic. The role of the bad critic is ego fullfillment. I think Gene Wolfe is accessible. I know others who don't. I think Wolfe's BOOK OF THE NEW SUN may prove to be great literature. Others don't. The subject happens to interest me. A good critic, whether or not I agree with him, will help me organize the issues in such a way that will help me decide, and, MUCH more important, get more out of the book. And I want to get more out of the book. It was so much fun to read. . . . -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 85 13:05 EDT From: ------ Operator Subject: Arms, Armor, and Armor all I would like to direct your attention to Poul Anderson's essay "On Thud and Blunder", which I have in a collection titled _Fantasy_ and which doubtless appears elsewhere. Anderson directly addresses such concerns as: Can you really lop heads off with just one blow? What happens if your sword breaks? Just how hard is it to learn to lop? East or west, which armor is best? How do you avoid plague, Montazuma's revenge, and crabs in a medieval culture? And the ever popular...If the damsel in distress can singlehandedly hold off the wicked sorcerer/Dark Lord/ogre/our hero with a forty pound broadsword, outrun the Dogs of Death/boiling lava/local gendarmes/our hero in 3-inch spike heels, ankle irons, and filmy garments, and outdrink, out fight, and out love the Black Company/an army of trolls/Ed McMahon/our hero...how come she looks like lifting a strand of hair away from her immaculately made-up face would make her faint with exertion? Leigh Ann might find some of the more serious concerns addressed of value, as would any one else contemplating life and war in a barbaric culture. Jessie (ops@ncsc) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 3 Sep 85 0931-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #347 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Sep 85 0931-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #347 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 3 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 347 Today's Topics: Books - Hubbard (2 msgs) & MacAvoy (2 msgs) & Niven & Zelazny & Dr. Lao, Films - The Stuff, Music - Bladerunner Soundtrack & SF in Music, Miscellaneous - Development of Technology & Critics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 29 Aug 85 16:45:33 PDT (Thursday) From: Richardson.SV@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #343 >... I honestly don't know if the L. Ron Hubbard that writes >science fiction is the same one that wrote the scientology book. > -Richard Hartman > max.hartman@ames-vmsb Your friend is wrong; it's the same L. Ron Hubbard. I remember reading a comment from another author about L. Ron saying "The only way to really make money is to found a religion." And a few years later, ... Rich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Aug 85 20:41:58 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: L. Ron Hubbard There is only one L. Ron Hubbard. He writes SF, he wrote the Dianetics books, and he founded Scientology. According to Reader's Digest, he claims to be trillions of years old and from another star system. ...Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri 30 Aug 85 01:34:39-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #344 > I liked this book [The Book of Kells] as an easy read. I am > confused as to the true involvement of the Book itself. (Slilght Spoiler) I started reading the book at 3:30 a.m., so I don't remember everything. Weren't the monks copying the Book of Kellss, and that copy the one we know of as the Book today? Didn't the hero bring it back to our time, compare it against the original? It didn't seem integral to the plot, but titles have been given for less. (on my desk now, The Left Hand of Darkness and Swann's Way). There are two or three books with titles of the form ``The Book of x'' (or a near-synonym) a year. Someone must think it's neat. > Granted, John was very studied in Gaellic art, of which the Book >was a prime example, and the circles may(?) have been depicted in >the Book. Not in any part I remember, which is a minimal fraction of the whole. I don't remember MacAvoy saying anything about them being in the Book, either. > Also, how did the Book figure into the climax when John "sings" >the Norsemen away? When he thought ``too much Book of Kells?'' I think he was worrying about his sanity, as well he might; that he was in a hallucination induced by too much time on the Book. I thought John left the real book in somewhere safe for the battle. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 30 Aug 85 09:20:42-PDT From: Ron Cain Subject: Book of Kells *** Mild spoiler warning *** Though I can't claim to know how the real Book of Kells figured into the opening of the time portal, I rather suspected that its opening had more to do with the peculiar intricasies of Celtic knotwork. There have been theories (as yet unproven with any real rigor) that the ancient Celtic knotwork (with which the BOK's illuminated manuscripts abound) were a form of musical notation. The connection between music and the spirals was always quite clear in the book. Hence, the opening of the time portal was not so much due to the cross John was tracing, but the geometry of the spirals themselves. A subtle but crucial point about the green portal opened in the height of the final battle is that John was fingering the knotwork around the band of his hat at the time -- once more making the connection. Just my ideas, of course. ... ron cain ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 85 09:33:00 PDT From: mar.hart@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- Down In Flames --- Can anybody tell me which book this story comes from? I don't seem to remember the events being described by the current Protector Discussion that keeps referencing this story (in which Bey S. gets turned into a protector, apparently....) T.I.A. -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 28 Aug 85 12:34:00 GMT I read Trumps of Doom last night. It was the most enjoyable new book i've read in quite a while. If you are not a Zelazny fan, or you didn't like/haven't read the Amber series this is probably not the book for you. If however the first paragraph of Nine Princes was an injection of pure pleasure then run out and get it. Check it out from the library. Buy it. Pull a smash and grab on a book store. Whatever. Then lock yourself in with some munchies and read it. As they say in Hawaii, "Da kine, bro". chris decvax!vortex!ism780!chris ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!chris ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 85 08:59:30 EDT From: Chris Jarocha-Ernst Subject: The Bradbury - Lao Connection What your friend is probably thinking of is an anthology edited by Bradbury that included "Dr. Lao". In the mid-60s, when MARTIAN CHRONICLES really took off, Bantam Books released a series of uniformly packaged Bradbury paperbacks, including the anthology (the name of which... ). I remember being disappointed when I learned he only edited it, but I *loved* "Dr. Lao". And remember "The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao" with Tony Randall as everybody? It's been years and years, but I recall neat Jim Danforth stop-motion animation and great make-up on Tony! Too bad they threw in the "evil robber baron" plotline, though... Chris ------------------------------ From: ucla-cs!reiher@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: "The Stuff" Date: 23 Aug 85 05:23:23 GMT I do not believe that a film has to be perfect in order to be enjoyable. In fact, I'm willing to live with major flaws in some areas if a film provides enough pleasures in others. "The Stuff" is a case in point. There are several rather important things wrong with "The Stuff", but it has some interesting quirks that were enough fun to allow me to, if not overlook the flaws, at least enjoy the film. "The Stuff" is a sf/horror/comedy/whatever film from the fertile brain of Larry Cohen. When last seen, Mr. Cohen offered us "Q", a weird little number about a giant flying lizard which takes up residence in the top of the Chrysler building in New York City; that is, when it isn't flying around biting off peoples' heads. What gave that film the extra twist it needed was that it focused on an ex-junkie's attempts to extort a million dollars from the city in return for his knowledge of the critter's whereabouts. In "The Stuff", somebody is marketing a dessert product that is actually a parasite which takes over the bodies of those who eat too much of it. Since one of its early effects is to make you crave more of it, that isn't too hard. The perspective in "The Stuff" is from the point of view of an industrial spy hired by the ice cream companies to find out where The Stuff is coming from. Since Cohen came up with the basic idea and wrote the screenplay, he receives both credit and blame for it. Credit is due for the dialog and some of the characters. Blame accrues for the poor plotting. Cohen has three or four really good ideas, but he doesn't develop any of them very well. Practically as soon as he presents one of them, he speeds off to the next, as if he expected the audience to fill in all the details for him. Cohen's direction (and his part of the editing, which was substantial), show the same tendencies. He is very good with characters, but not too good with action or suspense. His editing style is peculiar. One of the great discoveries of early cinema is that one can cut within a scene and allow a time lapse between the two actions. The classic example is when someone closes their apartment door, then we cut to them entering their car. The great discovery was that you didn't have to show the person walking from the door to the car. Basically, the language of cinema allows shortcuts. You don't have to show everything. However, very little progress has been made over the years in compacting what still must be shown to prevent disorientation in the audiences. In other words, the same shortcuts used in the thirties are used today. Editors haven't found a way to trim even more, leaving greater proportions to the audience's imaginations. Cohen knows this, but he doesn't care. He cuts out stuff you really have to leave in, anyway. The effect is a momentary pause in the viewer's mind while he wonders if the projectionist has shown a reel out of order. This happens four or five times in "The Stuff", and there are lesser shortcuts which give the film the appearance of having the hiccups. Cohen's handling of the actors is generally good, though, particularly Michael Moriarty and Paul Sorvino. Moriarty played the twitchy ex-junkie in "Q", and his role here, as the not-so- good ol' boy industrial spy, gives him a splendid chance to demonstrate what a good actor he is. At first glance, he is almost unrecognizable, and he is completely convincing as the self assured operative who, fundamentally, isn't very nice. Moriarty is an endlessly inventive actor, and his performance alone makes "The Stuff" worth seeing. Paul Sorvino, another underutilized actor (his last part was playing himself for a cameo in "Turk 182"), displays near-lunatic confidence as an ultra-right wing paramilitary leader, who is much worse than not nice. One of the film's little ironies is that these two unpleasant people, who normally one would prefer to see locked tightly away in some prison, are the only ones capable of dealing with the bizarre threat of The Stuff. Garrett Morris is OK as a Famous Amos clone who is pissed off because the distributors of The Stuff stole his chocolate chip cookie company, but he disappears too soon to be really effective. Andrea Marcovicci has a rather poorly written role, that of the advertising director for The Stuff who is converted by Moriarty. Patrick O'Neal has too little screen time to make any impact as the amoral executive who distributes The Stuff, despite his knowledge of the danger. "The Stuff" was made quickly and cheaply by a director who does not have a strong visual sense, so it looks rather like TV movies. The special effects are poor to mediocre. In addition to the great gaps in the story, the editing fails to provide even the slightest suspense or excitement. The score is forgettable, including the advertising jingles for The Stuff. There is relatively little gore, which is somewhat surprising, considering that Cohen was the man who gave us "It's Alive!" "The Stuff" is worth seeing, though, for its weird sensibilities, a few interesting ideas (not very well carried out), some good dialog, and fine acting. Many worse films have made a lot of money, so "The Stuff" might well have a chance of cleaning up. If not, it will undoubtedly be a staple of midnight movie circuits for years to come. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Thu, 29 Aug 85 21:55:25 PDT Subject: re: re: Bladerunner soundtrack...almost Although Vangelis [hollowed be thy name] did not wish to release the soundtrack to _Blade Runner_ it was recreated by a record producer. BUT! The song 'Memories Of Green' can be found in it's original form on the album 'See You Later'. [Cut three - Side One] Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc or crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 09:52 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: Music & SF Excuse the tardiness but I have spent a fair portion of this p.m. ploughing through the last 60+ issues of SFL. I am amazed that no_one has mentioned what I have long felt to be the finest SF song I have ever heard "Space Odyssey" by the Byrds (off Notorious Byrd Brothers 1968). This is a retelling of Arthur C. Clarke's "The Sentinel" to a folk-ish melody against an electronic drone (Beaver & Krause as I recall) Lyrics when I have refreshed my memory. While speaking of The Byrds I was reminded by someone else of Mr. Spaceman - another fine song that dumps all over Bowie's Starman on a similar theme. The MC5 track referred to is Starship off Kick out the Jams. Hardly a major theme but as I recall the last man alive on the earth in Childhood's End finally satisifes his ambition to be the finest pianist in the world and sits playing Bach waiting for the end. deryk. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 85 14:07:22 PDT (Thursday) From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA Subject: The development of technology and science ucdavis!ccrdave@topaz.arpa writes: > Wars are probably the greatest motivation for technology in > mankind's history. Look at how much money was spent for R & D > during W W II. Look at the results of the short period between > 1935 and 1945. The A bomb, the suborbital rocket, the computer, > and radar, all developed during that brief period War does not promote technological development. The R&D during WW II was mostly D, development, of current ideas and knowledge into means of destruction. It was not new break thoughs, but adaptation of what was known at the time. The atom bomb was from work done by scientists in the 1920. Real technological progress comes from both development, and research. Just pure research does not benifit a society. Just pure development can not be substained for long. Both are needed. War helps neither. Or more correctly the only benefit of war is the protection of the society progressing. Henry III ------------------------------ Date: Fri 30 Aug 85 01:05:54-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #342 > But I'm also secure enough to recognize that some people have put > a lot of work into reading the "Cantos" and are deeply rewarded > for their efforts. It's just not my cup of tea. Why do you and > some of your cohorts of a similar mind in this group refuse to > grant us "Art Snobs" a similar courtesy? My first impressions of this firefight were that various "Art Snobs" were not granting "Good-Read Snobs" (to use a parallel term without intending either term to be especially accurate) that right; that they were being rather extreme in their claims that the standards of "Art" were the only worthy ones. Since then, much umbrage has been given, and much taken; probably most of the lack of courtesy is reaction to excessive nastiness of the other side. It can't be intended personally, for we are all of us honorable men. Of course, the battle has been going on for longer than this newsgroup has existed, and probably predates half of the world's major religions as well. (-; maybe it is one of them ;-) But then, we're having fun trying to stuff each other in our favorite teacups. Pax VAXque vobiscum, Bard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 3 Sep 85 1005-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #348 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 3 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 348 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Brin & Hubbard & Niven & Tolkien (2 msgs), Films - Quatermass, Miscellaneous - Contacting Writers (3 msgs) & Storm Troopers (2 msgs) & Critics & Filk Song ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 10:02 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: HHGTG 2 points: 1) there certainly never was a 13th episode of the radio series made. The 12th episode, ending with Arthur stealing Zaphods spaceship (is this right?) and Peter Jones asking "Will there ever be another series of that remarkable programme", first broadcast in the UK in January 1979 was definitely it. 2) dunno about episode six (and I will check this tonight) but the rest of the background music - certainly in the first radio serial - was not Jean Michel Jarre but was Terry Riley. Excerpts from "A Rainbow in Curved Air" and "Poppy Nogood and the Phantom Band" were used extensively behind Peter Jones as the book informing. Frankly, given the extremely derivative nature of JMJ's music, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the music in episode 6 was Riley also. For the tv series and records this was ditched (presumably because of royalties) and special background music was composed by Tim Souster; who also did an electronic arrangement of Bernie Leadon's "Journey of the Sorceror" - also presumably to cut down on royalty payments. deryk. ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 85 09:47:23 PDT (Friday) From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA Subject: David Brin and uplifting gorillas David Brin is working on a novel called "The Uplift War" which is suppose to come up around July 1986. It was going to come out the end of this year, but he co-authored a book on Halley's comet which will be out in a couple more months. Henry III ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 17:32:05 PDT From: lah%ucbmiro@Berkeley (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: L. Ron Hubbard The story was told me as follows: many of the then-new (now rich and famous) Science Fiction authors were sitting around griping about how they weren't making any money. Then Heinlein or someone said, "Well, you KNOW the only way to make money these days is to found a new religion or invent a new therapy." At which point, Hubbard got a funny look in his eye, dashed out of the room, and the rest is history... (Naturally, I have no idea if this is true, but it sure makes a better story than some Hubbard's written!) Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: Fri Aug 30 11:37:38 1985-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Planetary maps on the Ringworld Given that the Pak Protectors built the Ringworld, and that there are maps of Earth, Mars, Down, Kzin, etc. in one of the large (boy is *that* an understatement) oceans, one might also suspect that there would be a "map" of the Pak homeworld there. This would be reasonably conclusive proof that it was indeed the Pak that built the Ringworld, as the other maps were of planets in the immediate neighborhood of the Ringworld, but the Pak homeworld was much closer to the galactic core, and therefore unlikely to be visited by the STL ramships. Unless that was where those ships originally came from. I recall (but don't have my copy of Ringworld Engineers handy to check) that one of the maps was listed as "Unknown". Perhaps that is the map of Pak. I wonder what might be there. Tom Wadlow (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: UUCP: ..!ucbvax!dual!mordor!taw ..!decvax!decwrl!mordor!taw ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) Subject: new books from Sherri Tepper Date: 30 Aug 85 20:54:31 GMT This month brings two new books from Sherri Tepper: _The_Search_of_Mavin_ Manyshaped_ and _Jinnian_Footseer_. (Interesting to note that the first is from her previous publisher, but JF is from Tor--anybody know anything about this?) I enjoyed both. In TSoMM we are at that time 20 years after the events in _The_Song_of_Mavin_Manyshaped_ when Mavin and Himmagery are supposed to meet. Except he's not there. A message from Windlow is, however, and after meeting with Windlow, Mavin sets out on a search for Himmaggery. The book leaves us at a point sometime before Peter's birth. JF is the story of the Jinnian up to the point where she and Peter are about to go off together. There is a great deal about Jinnian here, she has many unexpected and previously unencountered qualities that help explain why she turned out not to be the pampered, protected young woman we might have expected her to be, considering where she was educated. Her side of the trip and the battle is told (including some explanation about the groles she was nearly eaten by). A most interesting feature of JF is the description of wise-art, and how Jinnian comes to learn wise-art; although there is no explanation of exactly why sevens are only made up of women, I have a feeling this is supposed to be akin to witches--but as to dervishes...er, well, no more spoilers. There was a hint that there might be more books after JF--perhaps a third trilogy? As Peter's stories were in a different voice from the bubbling, bouncing rhythyms in Mavin's, Jinnian too has a different voice. L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 85 12:09 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names Tolkien was a philologist-- a student of the structure and history of language. As such, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that he was well aware of the differences between oral and written story telling styles. Much of The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings and almost all of The Silmarillion has the "feel" of oral history about it-- the type of thing that the bard, sage, or historian might tell in the feasting hall after the mead had been passed around. Furthermore, the I know nothing about it, but the Icelandic (?? I've deleted the original message) tale that the dwarves' names were derived from sounds as if it were originally an oral history that only later got written down for posterity. The rhythmic, rhyming "flow" of names is a device found frequently in stories from an oral tradition and most probably serves as a mneumonic device to aid in preserving the names in memory. It is just another indicator of the differences between our cultures that these lists of names seem > silly and invented for their alliteration and rhyming to us. I might also add that in taking these characters from an earlier story and building a new story around them ( a sort of "further adventures of Thorin and the Dwarf gang") Tolkien was doing something that was VERY traditional for creative oral storytellers to do-- an idea that probably amused him quite a bit. Finally, from some biography or other on Tolkien, I remember that The Hobbit was originally designed to be a story for Tolkien's children and was initially published as a children's book. In fact, he had some trouble with TLOTR when he went to publish it because it WASN'T a children's book. I think it's a tribute to the man's greatness that his books tend to work both verbally and in written form, and appeal to both very young children and to very profound adults. Hey, is this ART, or what?? --Chris Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 30 Aug 85 12:16 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Spaking of Tolkien. . . By the way, while we're on the subject, I'm looking for a NICE, preferably illustrated copy of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings to give as a wedding gift. I know there is a decent illustrate edition of TH still in print, but I'd like something older. I've heard that at one time or another there was an edition published with Tolkien's own illustrations; does anybody have information on that? Just out of curiosity, anybody know how much a first edition HOBBIT might go for? Any other suggestions would be welcome. (I know about book searches, etc. but I'm moving soon and I've been having some trouble with the local book dealers. I'd just like to know what you all know about. If anyone has something they might like to sell, let me know, I'll think about it.) Reply to me presonally, --Chris Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 09:54 MST From: Deryk Barker Subject: Quatermass & the pit This movie (originally - as all the Quatermass films - a tv serial in Britain) seems also to have been the inspiration for the Dr. Who story (title forgotten) set in Devil's End. Someone else can doubtless remember the fine detail, but Jon Pertwee was the doctor at the time. Must have been shown in England in about 1971. deryk. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 30 Aug 85 09:10:00-PDT From: Ron Cain Subject: Contacting writers I believe the preferred method of contacting a writer is through the publisher. Address the letter to the publisher and request that it be forwarded to the author. Publishers seem to be pretty reliable about getting the things through to the writer in a short time. But for those who already know how to contact a writer (in this example McCaffrey), I would plead on their behalf that the information stay off the net. There is a good reason for letting the publisher serve as an indirect address. ... ron cain ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Aug 85 14:59 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Time tested way to contact author of choice ...is to write to thon care of thon's publisher. I have started my correspondence with McCaffrey, Norton, Asimov, and others just that way. Many authors are very polite in responding to fanmail. Harlan Ellison has ignored folk, and sent out a form letter due to time pressures. Asimov uses postcards, for the same reason. If the author was at a convention you recently attended, write to them care of the concommittee. Publishers are frequently less busy, and may forward your letter faster. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: How to contact Anne MacCaffrey?? Date: 30 Aug 85 02:32:19 GMT donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes: >Does anyone in netland know how to go about contacting her or the >author of one's choice? I gues I am doomed, DOOMED you hear me, *doomed*! to post this every couple of months.... You can get whatever address is best used to write to an author by going to (or calling) your reference librarian. There is a wonderful book which she will have (haven't met any male ones yet, perhaps there is a sex-linked characteristic for knowing everything and smilingly listening to dumb questions) which can give you what you need. Sometimes it is just the agent's address, but often it is the author's real live home address. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms Date: 30 Aug 85 10:28:28 GMT slerner@sesame.UUCP (Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner) writes: >To combine a few of the earlier ideas: There has been a recent >advance in blaster technology (blasters are obviously relatively >new, since light sabers where in use 1 generation ago), and armor >technology has not kept up. Military bureaucracy always takes >forever to catch up I don't think so. The light sabre was the traditional weapon of a Jedi knight. If you like, by using a weapon of limited range the Jedi knight can demonstrate his superiority by defeating better-armed enemies with an apparantly inferior weapon. Think of martial arts adepts defeating armed attackers bare-handed. The Force helps establish the mystique of the Jedi as well as providing practical help in battle. It's more likely that the blaster is the regular weapon of Imperial troops because it is very simple to use (just hit the trigger and wave it about like a sub-machinegun) and the Imperial soldiers, being expendible conscripts, aren't worth training properly. I wonder how much the Empire paid its suppliers for light bulbs (|+> ) ? Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: 3comvax!michaelm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Date: 30 Aug 85 02:13:56 GMT > The Empire is a typical decadent power. Used to wasting all > threats with great firepower. They got lazy. > It also seemed common for commanders to kill subordinates. (ie > Vader's attacks on various officers of his own fleet) Not a way to > increase moral. > Only the fighter pilots seemed to have any skill and good > equipment. > Elric Remember the scene in *Star Wars* where the troops are conducting a house-to-house search of the city, and the robots see them coming and lock the door? When the troops get to the door, they knock, then one says, ``This one's locked, go on to the next.'' It seems a bit odd for a totalitarian state to be stopped by a locked door.... Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation ..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: "Anti-Art" snobbery" Date: 28 Aug 85 14:30:48 GMT > Science fiction is, as you say, the literature of ideas. Unlike > other forms of literature the background has prominence over the > characters. Thus it is that very bad works of literature are very > good SF. The occasional exceptional author can produce a book > that's both good SF and "art". > > Peter da Silva > UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter > MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 I respect your opinion on this, but it seems to me that, as the "literature of ideas," the other requirements of the work (characterization, quality of prose, etc) become stronger, not weaker, lest the idea fail to get a fair hearing because the writing itself puts one off the book. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: A-Filking we will go/ Date: 29 Aug 85 13:13:12 GMT I Once Had a Sword (to Norwegian Wood) was written by Charlie Luce and originally published by him in my apa, ALARUMS AND EXCURSIONS (for FRPers). The words are... I once had a sword, or should I say...it once had me. I just picked it up; oh what a sword! It was plus three. Its Ego was 12, a fact of which I wasn't aware. When I wanted to leave I found that the sword didn't care. Oh..... I walked through the halls, wasting my time, nothing to find. Then I turned a corner, and then I said, "Oh no, Undead!" The 32 Wights saw me coming and started to laugh. And I closed my eyes as my sword started hewing a path. Oh..... And when I awoke, I was alone; the sword had...flown. Now I use a club. Isn't it good? No-Ego wood! Lee Gold ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Sep 85 0926-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #349 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 349 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Card & Hubbard & Niven & Schmitz & Yolen & First SF, Films - Fail Safe, Music - Bambi Meets Godzilla, Miscellaneous - Storm Troopers (3 msgs) & Matter Transmission ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: abnji!nyssa@topaz.rutgers.edu (nyssa of traken) Subject: The End of the World, Thursday 5ZSeptember, 1985! Date: 2 Sep 85 13:37:02 GMT Well, the bad news is that all signs point to the arrival of the Vogon constructor fleets this Thursday, to wit: In Life, the Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams forcast the destruction of earth to occur the Thursday following a victory by England in the test series for the Ashes against Australia in the decade of the 1980's in England. Today the English look pretty much assured of a major victory (upset) against the Australians in the last test at the Oval. It may already be over as I am typing this. Furthermore, the Australians do not return for a test series for the Ashes to England until 1990. The actual destruction will taken place on the Thursday following the Test at noon BST, 7AM on the East Coast (I will be driving to work, my car stereo ought to be fixed by then, so I should hear the notice clearly!). So long folks, it looks like this is it. PS A sofa did appear and disappear today at the Oval, interrupting play. I guess NJN won't be showing Hartnell, Troughton, & Colin Baker after all. James C. Armstrong, Jnr. {ihnp4,cbosgd,akgua}!abnji!nyssa ------------------------------ From: grady@ucbmiro.ARPA (Steven Grady) Subject: Ender's Game (book) Date: 1 Sep 85 20:33:03 GMT Does anyone have thoughts about Orson Scott Card's new book, a novel length version of "Ender's Game"? I saw it in a bookstore.. Steven ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!myke@topaz.rutgers.edu (Myke Reynolds) Subject: Re: The "Battlefield Earth" sound track... Date: 3 Sep 85 02:44:58 GMT I spent a lot of time at a local planetarium when I was in highschool, and one of the technicians used to go out and buy 100's of bucks worth of silly albums. She and I would listen to them, looking for useful noises for planetarium shows, and giggle a lot.. One day she came back with the soundtrack to the afore mentioned book.. "A sound track to a book??" I thought it sounded really tacky at the time, lots of over dramatic voices.. Sounded like a bastardized opera.. I'm biased however.. My step-father is very much into scientology (founded by one and the same L. Ron Hubard..) He spends thousands of dollars on these scientology classes and wont even pay for my mother's glaucoma operation.. It makes me nauseous just thinking about all the money this scum ball must be making off of this stuff.. I read a portion of the book when I went to visit my mother last summer, if you are aware of them there are references to scientology all through the book.. The only reference I can remember now is the thing about MEST, matter, energy, space and time.. which are all separate things according to Mr. Hubard.. Of what religious value this is I do not know.. I would be quite happy if this whole movie business was a monsterous flop.. Myke Reynolds Office of Telecommunications and Networking Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!myke ------------------------------ From: lumiere!davest@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Stewart) Subject: Re: Known Space books Date: 29 Aug 85 18:43:29 GMT In the back of "Tales of Known Space" is a complete bibliography of the Known Space series as well as a time line for the occurance of the stories, major events, etc. David C. Stewart uucp: tektronix!davest Small Systems Support Group csnet: davest@TEKTRONIX Tektronix, Inc. phone: (503) 627-5418 ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 2 Sep 1985 22:15:21-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ""Research Alpha"" by Schmitz & van Vogt > From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA > In nebulas.txt from Rutgers there is mention of a story > "Research Alpha" by A. E. van Vogt & James Schmitz. Does anyone > know where the story appeared? Also did any of James Schmitz's > stories on Telzy appear outside of Analog? "Research Alpha" first appeared in IF, July 1965. It was reprinted in the Van Vogt collection MORE THAN SUPERHUMAN. I don't think that any of the Telzey stories appeared outside of ANALOG (except for the book appearances), but there are stories that take place in the same universe (the Federation of the Hub) that appeared elsewhere. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Jessica Amanda Salmonson Date: 28 Aug 85 14:44:06 GMT > One of my favorite pieces (in _Amazons_, I believe) is "Sister > Light, Sister Dark" by Jane Yolen, who recently published the > hauntingly lovely novel _The_Cards_of_Grief_ and who is known > mainly for her children's books. > > jesse (ops@ncsc) Just an enthusiastic endorsement of Jane Yolen in general, and CARD OF GRIEF and "Sister Light, Sister Dark" in particular. -- SKZB ------------------------------ Date: Sun 1 Sep 85 17:15:36-PDT From: Jeff Thompson Subject: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? One of my friends is generally derisive of sf. I think that she has been exposed to too many "Creature Features" to take the genre seriously. Recently, however she agreed to read one sf novel of my choice to "Give the stuff a chance". I suggested "Lord of Light", which she is reading now. My question is this -- Was that a wise choice for a representative of all that is good in the field? If not what would you suggest to your friends given the same opportunity? -- Jeff T. ------------------------------ Subject: Fail Safe (slight spoiler) Date: 01 Sep 85 01:04:24 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne My impression of Fail Safe is that it is such a powerful story, with such extreme relevance to today's world situation, that the odd technical blunder in special effects (which I must confess I didn't actually observe) hardly seems worth notice -- though one hopes they wouldn't take that as a license to let the same mistakes go again. Henry Fonda as the president, and Larry Hagman as the Russian-language interpreter Peter Buck, give very impressive performances. Walter Matthau is chilling as the political sciences professor Walter Grotoschele, who talks calmly of making a nuclear war winnable, and wants to take advantage of the accident to "get them before they get us": i.e., turn the accident into a genuine first strike against Moscow. Fritz Weaver plays the colonel in the Omaha war room who freezes when given a presidential order to give the Russians what they need to know to shoot down American bombers, simply unable to obey. Throughout, the film is a powerful look at the interplay of strong and conflicting personalities thrust together to try to resolve a situation of global impact, and also of the consequences of abdicating too much responsibility to one's tools (Grotoschele, for instance, honestly believes that humans can take over as soon as something goes wrong in a computer's actions, and would base a defense system on that belief). A strong story, and the movie is an unusally faithful rendering of the book. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady) Subject: Bambi Meets Godzilla trivia (spoiler) Date: 2 Sep 85 08:47:29 GMT Does anyone know whether the chord at the moment Godzilla steps on Bambi is from the last (long) chord in the Beatles' "Day in the Life"? Steven ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms Date: 01 Sep 85 00:26:32 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne I think the idea behind the armour is possibly more psychological than physical: confront the enemy with battalions of human (probably) killing machines, with a faintly insectlike appearance about the face; demoralize and intimidate, and in many cases you'll already have the battle halfway won. The Empire appears to enjoy this strategy of giving machines menacing, disturbing appearances which are of no real mechanical advantage to the machines themselves: look at the probe droid, or the walkers, especially the big quadrupedal ones. Those cockpits looked as if they had great compound eyes on each side of them. Intimidation and oppression is the Empire's game, and not just with weaponry. Though I imagine that it's true enough about their being encumbered with bureaucracy, and rules that exist simply because they always have done. I see no real reason, though, to assume that blasters are particularly modern; and I'm pretty certain that the use of lightsabres could never have been common, since using them effectively required training with the Force. For the average fighter, the blaster has probably been the weapon of choice for quite a while. I would imagine that the armour is still used because of its demoralising appearance, and because it has a certain usefulness against weaponry less powerful than blasters (garotting, gassing, or drowning troopers would be just about impossible); and also because its communications equipment provides immediate, personal contact with every single trooper. Furthermore, I doubt whether the Empire much cares whether individual troopers get mown down by blaster fire. There are always more where they came from, and the Empire usually attacks in masses anyway. I agree about the economic use the Rebels must have to make of their resources. Better to concentrate on weaponry that actually reduces enemy forces (like ion cannons, speeders, X-wings, etc.) than to waste equipment on merely holding them off. And psychological warfare is not (or has not been) one of their strategies. A previous message paraphrased, I believe, a remark of Kenobi's from "A New Hope" about the "accuracy" of the stormtroopers' fire. Considering the context, I think he just meant that they were more accurate than Tuscan raiders with the blaster equivalent of flintlocks. Which they bloody well should have been, since they were aiming at something the size of a barn, and which hardly moved any faster than a barn. Certainly he spoke of blasters being "clumsy or random" when he first showed Luke Annakin's lightsabre. Ever notice how the window-like nature of the Star Wars films so far allows an enormous amount of speculation on subjects that the films don't cover? Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms Date: 30 Aug 85 16:35:55 GMT A good many military uniforms are not intended to offer protection against weapon fire. Modern infantry uniforms are good examples. They're just thick cloth -- good against mosquitos and scratchy undergrowth, but not much of anything else. I presume the reason for this is that armour which protected against weapon fire would be too bulky or expensive. Suppose the Empire subscribes to the same philosophy -- the armour should protect against minor irritations, but not to protect against weapon fire. Then the armour makes sense. What sort of irritations would the Empire face? Extreme weather conditions are the most obvious, and the armour clearly handles this -- in the Empire Strikes Back, normal armour was sufficient for the Empire infantry, so the armour obviously contains temperature control facilities. Another minor (or not so minor) annoyance would be local bacteria. The troops may well be sent to life-supporting planets at the drop of a hat. Who knows what kind of nasty diseases they might pick up from indigenous microbes? So they wear non-porous armour and breathe through filters. I dare say that this feature of the armour is vastly more important than defense against weapons. Firefights are few and far between; alien germs are omnipresent. One last function of uniforms is to encourage a psychological separation between military and civilian life. The army must create a psychological climate in which inhumane acts are possible, and in the Empire's case, they must also instill fear in the populace. The uniforms contribute admirably to this effect. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 85 14:04 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Empire Storm Troopers and Militarism People wishing to delve deeper in this topic should read Alfred Vagts' classic _Militarism_, in which he differentiates between the military state of mind (exemplified by the Rebels) and the militaristic (*really* exemplified by The Empire). Basically, the first is interested in results and the second is interested in internal power games and pretty uniforms -- but there are many other insights and historical examples in the book. ------------------------------ From: graffiti!peter@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva) Subject: Matter Transmission Date: 31 Aug 85 16:17:55 GMT > Interesting question! I have a little thought experiment > which might amuse anyone who's interested in the answer to it. > Let's pretend that someone has invented a "matter transmitter", a > device whereby a person can step in a transmitter in, say San > Francisco, and step out of a receiver in London a fraction of a > second later, having been transmitted from one to the other. > However, it's not *really* a matter transmitter; physically > sending the atoms that make up your body half-way round the world > would not be economical. Instead, it simply sends all the > *information* required to duplicate your body at the other end, > using materials closer to hand. The result, nevertheless, is an > exact duplicate down to the molecular level, with both the "mind" > and the body not detectably altered. [followed by some discussion about whether it's really the same person, and describing a couple of possible accidents that could lead to duplicates] This has been bandied about by SF writers for years, with various variants. But let me throw in a couple more... The machine knocks you out & chops you up like a side of beef at a butcher's shop. At the other end an autodoc (ala niven) puts you back together. Would you travel this way? Comment: It's probably a lot more reliable than the matter transmitter described above. The machine breaks you down to individual cells and proceeds as above. The machine takes a brain recording and a cell sample & plays you back into a clone. The machine takes a scan but doesn't destroy the original. My own conclusion: I'd want to be damn certain that the process would be reliable before trusting my information to it. Last thought: What would this do to manufacturing processes? To farming? To Friends of the Earth or the Audubon Society (don't worry about the whooping cranes, they're all on file). Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could you ever truly die? ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Sep 85 0950-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #350 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 4 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 350 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Cherryh & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Lovecraft & Niven, Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Ender's Game (book) Date: 2 Sep 85 21:05:00 GMT grady@ucbmiro.UUCP (Steven Grady) writes: >Does anyone have thoughts about Orson Scott Card's new book, a >novel length version of "Ender's Game"? I saw it in a bookstore.. It's wonderful. Bloody well *wonderful*. And I liked it a whole bunch, besides. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: Cherryh vs. McCaffrey Date: 27 Aug 85 14:35:55 GMT > Give me McCaffrey any day, that way I won't have to think too > much. > > All this may have something to do with why I only have all 23 > (24?) of CJ Cherryh's books sitting on my shelf, but have an > entire three of Anne McCaffrey's. Sorry, McCaffrey may be simplistic but for the most part at least I feel her characters and plots are much more interesting. I always read about Cherryh's books and think they sound like they should be good. Unfortunately, I am invariably disappointed. While Cherryh's worlds are fairly imaginative a societal description doesn't carry the book for me. My general feeling is that the characters are if anything more simplistic than McCaffrey's and much less interesting. The plots are usually dry and not gripping at all. Characters evoke very little empathy. I have tried a number of Cherryh's and found them all disappointing so now I generally give them a pass no matter how interesting the description sounds. This is, of course, all purely personal judgements and preference. David Albrecht ------------------------------ From: berman@isi-vaxa (Richard Berman) Date: 3 Sep 1985 1519-PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Scientologists? I hope this is the LAST message on Scientologists regarding Battlefield Earth. I didn't know that SF-LOVERS was also the RBIG (Religious Bigotry Interest Group). I just wanna hear about SF matters -- not someone's notions about the validity of ANY religion. Of course, there are those who argue that all religion is brainwashing... I get the impression from the two or three individuals writing such messages that they feel the Scientologists (and, no doubt, the Martians) are EVERYWHERE!! So keep looking behind the pictures and under the papers, because they're here someplace... P.S. I did rather like Battlefield Earth. If you didn't (or even if you did), I don't see how this relates to Scientology. I also like Donaldson, and I actually felt I learned something about life and especially about the "Despiser" from those books. Is that brainwashing? After all, isn't ALL learning "brainwashing"? I hereby formally suggest the abolishment of all forms of learning -- no, of all THOUGHT! That's the culprit! If only the masses would just do as we say... RB ------------------------------ From: ecrcvax!snoopy@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sebastian Schmitz) Subject: Re: L. Ron Hubbard Date: 3 Sep 85 17:43:29 GMT Well. I read the following in a book by Isaac Asimov (one of his anthologies). Now I have gathered that the net is not very keen on Asimov in general, but this is a factual account. It transpires that Laffayette Ron Hubbard and Isaac Asimov, were both working with John W. Campbell (the editor czar). Apparently Isaac was waiting to be seen, when Laffy came storming out of Campbells office (he was angry because his story presumably got rejected) and raced out yelling: "One day I will invent a religion, and get amazingly rich and show you guys !!". So much for that. Perhaps we should ask Ron. But then he is sailing around the Mediterranean on his yacht, unable to take shore because there are several european police forces who would like a word with him for tax frauds amongst other things... But then he seems peanuts against the leader of the "Oregonian" Bhagwan sect, who wants to have a different Rolls Royce for every day of the year. He currently has about 40, I think. Folks, we are in the wrong business. You just don't make money the honest way... Love, Sebastian (Snoopy) mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy ------------------------------ From: warwick!req@topaz.rutgers.edu (Russell Quin) Subject: Dreamquest/Lovecraft Date: 3 Sep 85 16:17:16 GMT I am looking (partly for a friend) for a copy of Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath by H P Lovecraft. Unfortunately, this appears to be unavailable in the UK. Is there anyone who would be willing to post me a copy? (funds are available for reinbursement for the *first* copy sent... please mail me first!!!) Much gratitude will undoubtedly result from any help in this matter, however small! Thank you very much (in advance). Russell mcvax!ukc!warwick!req (req@warwick.UUCP) ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.rutgers.edu (John A. Mariani) Subject: Re: Protectors and Known Space Novels Date: 3 Sep 85 10:12:24 GMT okamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Jeff Okamoto) writes: >Now, for a list of Known Space Novels (in no particular order): > Ringworld > The Ringworld Engineers > A Gift from Earth > The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton > Tales of Known Space > World of Ptaavs > Protector > Down in Flames :-) You seem to have missed out "Neutron Star" -- a collection of short stories. Maybe that was only released in the UK though. The Niven discussions have been very entertaining, and I'd like to amplify what earlier posters have said. It would seem Niven has "painted himself into a corner". He is now rigidly restrained in his further stories by the Known Space framework -- and he probably feels it is now such a complex structure he can't work with any freedom within it. I suppose this is the ultimate fate awaiting anyone who builds such a "Future History". I'll get out of your way now .. thanks for reading .. UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 2 Sep 1985 18:43:22-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: anti-Art Snobbery > From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.arpa (William Ingogly) >>From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >>In *this* universe, DHALGREN lost the Nebula ... Delany won a sum >>total of four (4) Nebulas ... He must be highly thought of in >>SFWA, eh? At last reckoning, the writers who've garnered the most >>awards ... are ... [list] What does that tell you? > What is it supposed to tell him? For that matter, what is it > supposed to tell the rest of us? It wasn't meant to be a rhetorical question, but if you want *my* interpretation - I mentioned that the authors who've won the most combined Hugo and Nebula awards were Harlan Ellison, Ursula LeGuin, Poul Anderson, and Fritz Leiber. Now, without having exact numbers at my fingertips, I'd guess that the division between Hugos and Nebulas was about even. that means that the writers choosing for "best literature" and the fans choosing for "favorite" tend to have fairly similar tastes. It might also be said to point out that fans can choose the more literary authors (Ellison, LeGuin) just as easily as the writers can and that the writers can choose the less literary authors (Leiber, Anderson) just as easily as the fans. The point I read in the article to which I responded was that because DHALGREN [supposedly] won a Nebula, it must be a terrific work of art. I merely wished to refute that. He also implied that because the Nebulas were chosen by writers rather than fans, the winners of such are a more estimable lot. I wished to refute that also. >>I never got very far into DHALGREN, myself. I thought it was >>twaddle. So am I now branded as an anti-Art snob despite the fact >>that I liked ... [list of Delany's other works] > If feeling like a persecuted 'anti-Art snob' is enjoyable, be our > guest. But don't you think this is just a little bit paranoid, > Jerry? No, I don't. And I never said whether I enjoyed being a persecuted anti-Art snob or even if I *considered* myself such. The original poster seemed to feel there is an anti-Art snob conspiracy abounding. Isn't *that* just a little bit paranoid? *I* didn't bring up the concept of the anti-Art snob. Turnabout is fair play. >>There is a problem with the concept of Art that no one's brought >>up yet. The Art snobbery has always been such that no one can >>dislike a Work of Art without being branded as an >>anti-intellectual fool. > WHO sez 'the Art snobbery' (whatever that's supposed to be) has > always been such? The endless stream of fantasies about how > imaginary Critics are hounding the members of this group and the > SF world in general is starting to get a little old, people. OK, > Jerry, I'm calling you on this one: who exactly in this group or > outside it has said that anyone who dislikes a Work of Art is an > anti-intellectual fool? I can't recall even Davis Tucker going > this far. If you knew anything at all about the Wonderful World of > Criticism, you'd know that Critics disagree about which books are > worth reading. Often and loudly. No, no one has called anyone an "anti-intellectual fool" in so many words, but hasn't that been the tone of Tucker's ravings, at least? Hasn't he gone on at length about how sf fans and readers are content to read [note: I don't have the previous SFL's to quote from verbatim] soporific fiction of the likes of Asimov, Heinlein, et alia, rather than the enlightening works of Literary Craftsmen? Hasn't he, *in essence* called those who prefer to read Piers Anthony rather than Jorge Luis Borges anti-intellectual fools? >>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply >>look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing >>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see >>why it's an exemplary work." It never occurs to the Art snobs that >>someone could simply *not like a Work of Art for valid reasons*. > Pure pony diarrhea. You want us to say maybe, "OK, Jerry, you say > Dhalgren is twaddle, so it must be twaddle; after all, you're NOT > a critic?" Saying you don't like it/couldn't get into it so there > mustn't be anything there is hardly valid criticism. Fact is, a > lot of people LIKE Dhalgren and find it a challenging and > rewarding work. If you have valid reasons for thinking that these > people are all Art Snobs who like Dhalgren only because some > mysterious conspiracy of Critics told them they should, please let > us know about it. I've never gotten into Ezra Pounds "Cantos" > because I find them rough going and more than a little > self-indulgent. But I'm also secure enough to recognize that some > people have put a lot of work into reading the "Cantos" and are > deeply rewarded for their efforts. It's just not my cup of tea. > Why do you and some of your cohorts of a similar mind in this > group refuse to grant us "Art Snobs" a similar courtesy? Where did I say that because I think DHALGREN is twaddle that there isn't anything there? Where did I say that anyone who finds DHALGREN a challenging and rewarding work is, *de facto*, an Art Snob. For that matter, where do I rant and rave against Art at all? I like Art, too. I've read and enjoyed Borges and Marquez (both in English *and* Spanish), Hesse and Kafka (both in English *and* German), Calvino, LeGuin, Delany, Tiptree, Barth, et alia. On the other hand, I've never been able to make head nor tail out of Joyce or Barthelme or any number of others. Likewise, I enjoy reading Asimov, Clarke, Niven, Leiber, and others. And I don't care for Anthony, Heinlein, Tolkien, and others. I don't consider myself either an Art Snob or an Anti-Art Snob. And I'm willing to recognize that someone can see something in a work of fiction that I can't. People see can all sorts of things in anything. The poster to whom I was responding, however, implied that by not liking DHALGREN, I was obviously not trying hard enough to see its virtues. Maybe I wasn't, but *maybe I was*. He shouldn't just *assume* the former. In fact, because I liked previous work by Delany, I was predisposed to liking DHALGREN, but I found it wanting (or at least, what I read of it). >>The only way someone can get away with not liking a Work of Art is >>to say "It was an interesting experiment that failed" rather than >>"It was a piece of self-indulgent nonsense". The end result is >>that no one is willing to tell the Emperor about his new clothes. > Either statement implies failure. The difference is that the first > is sympathetic to the effort of an author to produce an intricate > and serious work (800+ pages in the case of "Dhalgren"), and the > second is hostile to the author's having missed the mark. Who's > calling who a fool, Jerry? I give up. Who? > The effort and love that went into the writing of "Dhalgren" is > obvious. If you think Delany failed, at least give the poor slob a > little sympathy for having tried his best. It's obviously not a > piece of hack work. True, it's not, and I never said it was. I've seen many criticisms of DHALGREN that called it many things, but I don't recall "hack work" was any of them. Delany is a fine writer, and on the strength of other novels and short stories, I *know* that he can produce fine work. That still doesn't mean that he can't produce trash. And I feel that it's *especially* discouraging that DHALGREN wasn't better. But this brings up the point of whether anyone has the "right" to call *anything* a piece of hack work. Can you truly say that Piers Anthony puts less love and effort into writing any of his books than Delany does into his? If so, why? Because he publishes six times as many books per year? --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #342 Date: 3 Sep 85 13:45:13 GMT BARD@MIT-XX.ARPA writes: >My first impressions of this firefight were that various "Art >Snobs" were not granting "Good-Read Snobs" (to use a parallel term >without intending either term to be especially accurate) that >right; that they were being rather extreme in their claims that the >standards of "Art" were the only worthy ones. My reactions have always been to extreme statements on the part of the "Good-Read Snobs." Those of you with long memories will recall that my first posting on quality and fiction predated the whole Davis Tucker series that seems to have upset so many people in this group, and was a reaction to Steve Brust's claim that most good writing today is issuing from the pens (word processors?) of SF writers. Since then, I've seen great hostility on both sides of the fence. So please don't mislead newcomers to this controversy by claiming that the initial extremity was perpetrated by an "Art Snob." My OWN first impressions were that the "Good-Read Snobs" started it; c'mon, fight like a mensch. :-) >Since then, much umbrage has been given, and much taken; probably >most of the lack of courtesy is reaction to excessive nastiness of >the other side. It can't be intended personally, for we are all of >us honorable men. You obviously haven't seen the nasty mail messages I've occasionally received. :-) >But then, we're having fun trying to stuff each other in our >favorite teacups. One man's nastiness is another's debating style. As I pointed out in one of my innumerable postings on this subject, one can be critical of something and still like it. Why, some of my best friends voted for Reagan in the last election (I wouldn't want my sister to marry one, though :-). -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Sep 85 1113-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #351 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 351 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Niven & Rosenberg & L. Neil Smith & Tolkien & Yates & First SF Book, Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) & Contacting Authors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 4 Sep 85 08:19:15 PDT (Wednesday) From: Hoffman.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Ellison on Dhalgren I knew I had saved this, but, since I've just moved, it took me a while to find it. From the Los Angeles Times, February 23, 1975 (yes '75): BREAKDOWN OF A BREAKTHROUGH NOVEL By Harlan Ellison "Dhalgren" by Samuel R. Delany (Bantam Books: $1.95) The millenium is at hand and, to quote Gulley Jimson in "The Horse's Mouth," "It's not the vision I had." Speculative fiction has been banging down the barriers of the ghetto for 20 years and apologists of the idiom have been saying, "Just wait till the important novels of human conflict are written utilizing the tools of science fiction. Just wait! Then you'll see some dynamite literature." Well, I was one of the prime shouters, and some of those novels have been published in the last few months, and frankly I feel as if my mouth ought to be washed out with a copy of "The Charterhouse of Parma." Probably the most anxiously awaited of these promised "big" novels intended to merge SF with the mainstream, written not by academic dabblers or best-seller-list poseurs but by Our Crowd, was "Dhalgren" by Delany. Of all the post-New Wave writers, young Delany had the most stuff going for him: consummate storyteller, poet, four-time Nebula award winner, au courant, flashy stylist; hell, he'd even been published in New American Review. Rumors of its length, the depth of its perception, the range of its subject matter have circulated in the world of the fantasy writers for a fistful of years: it's huge, more than 300,000 words; it synthesizes everything Chip Delany was going for in "The Einstein Intersection" and "Nova"; it's sexually explicit in a way the genre's never been. Then came delays, and the book was always coming, coming, coming. The rumors grew more interesting. Chip refuses to sell it to any publisher who won't guarantee it'll be released uncut; Chip won't let anyone edit a word of it; Chip's had to change the title from "Brodecky" to "Dhalgren"; Chip's book has been turned down by all the hardcover houses. Now "Dhalgren" is with us, all 879 pages of it, and the questions are answered. Who could have known that all the answers would be unsatisfying? For "Dhalgren" is a tragic failure. An unrelenting bore of a literary exercise afflicted with elephantiasis, anemia of ideas and malnutrition of plot and character development. It is a master talent run amuck, suiciding endlessly for chapter after chapter of turgid, impenetrable prose. I must be honest: I gave up after 361 pages. I could not permit myself to be gulled or bored any further. Realizing from the git-go that the opening lines of the novel would tie into the closing lines, forming one of Laocoonian Moebius gimmicks considered too hoary for use 30 years ago, the travels of the nameless hero with one sandal did not seem sufficiently enriching to permit my engaging in the reading of the book as a career. Others who leaped on the first available copies of the novel, as I did, who began reading it avidly, as I did, who began breathing raggedly and faltered in the sprint, as I did, have assured me the book goes nowhere, does nothing, says nothing, and is sunk to its binding in mythological symbolism that is both flagrant and embarrassing. Three hundred and sixty-one pages had delivered me of the same conclusions. It is possible the trendy and the impressionable who conceive of "great" books as being those that are sententious and muddled may take to "Dhalgren" in cult as did the poor saps who think "Stranger In a Strange Land" is a hot item. But for those of us who have read Delany's previous work, who have admired it and who have rooted for him, hoping "Dhalgren" would be the breakthrough novel that won for him and for science fiction all the legitimacy for which both have been crying . . . this sorry compendium of pointless ramblings is a dry hole over which we will weep and wail for years to come. - - - - [ellipsis in the original] I had saved this all these years because it captured my own sense of disappointment at the time, though I did read the entire book, and I got a handful of tidbits worth savoring. Even disappointed, I could not give up so quickly on a writer whose earlier work had touched me and taught me so much, and I'm glad I didn't. I continue to be a strong fan of Delany's writing, both fiction and criticism. I still "leap on the first available copy" of his every new work and I've enjoyed much of it. And, yes, I still await the "breakthrough novel" I think he can produce. -Rodney Hoffman ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@topaz.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Re: Fate of the Protectors of Home Date: 30 Aug 85 20:04:14 GMT peter@baylor.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >> From: Cate3.SV@Xerox.ARPA >> As I remember the story, (and this may be faulty) the Home >> Protectors were going off to fight the Pak, at the speed of >> light. At > >...at nearly the speed of light... > >> that time the Puppeteer's had not sold the secret of going faster >> than the speed of light yet. So the Home Protectors spent two >> hundred years traveling to fight the Pak, hopefully beat the Pak, >> and then another two > >...slightly less than 200 years because the Pak were cming towards >them as well... >> hundred years to come back. This would explain the lack of >> interaction between the Home Protectors and the human race. >for a while when Louis Wu was born (he was his foster-father, see >"Borderlands of Sol"), and Louis was 200 years old at the time of >Ringworld. This comes to well over 400 years after Protector. Well, this all also forgets the fact that Protectors are a *methodical* bunch. They would almost certainly make utterly certain that there are no more Pak waves comming in. This would require quite a lot of time since they would have to go quite far towards the Pak planet to find out. Besides, I decided the obvious way of deciding this question was to ask Larry Niven himself, after all he is the one who wrote the story. I didn't have a chance to get much detail, but he said that the Home Protectors are still out there, every one of them. So for whatever reason they *haven't* gotten back yet. >> Maybe the next story will be about how thousands of Home >> Protectors deal with the human race? Well, bad news, Larry Niven has said he is through with the Known Space series, since it is too big to be maintained consistantly anymore. So there won't *be* a "next story". Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sat 31 Aug 85 23:14:59-CDT From: Douglas Good Subject: re: Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame Yes, a third book has come out. It's title is "The Silver Crown". I have have read it but only vaguely remember the plot so I can't really describe it too well... --Doug Good ------------------------------ Date: Wed 4 Sep 85 12:07:28-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: L. Neil Smith There is a new book out in the Probability Broach series. It is called The_Gallatin_Connection and it fits sort of at both ends of the time-line (40 years after Tom_Paine_Maru and 210 years before The_Proability_Broach. Those of you who read TPB, will realize that it puts it right at the Whiskey Rebellion. It's not bad, but I don't think it's as good as the others (definitely not as good as TPB). Smith takes what I consider to be some unwarranted cheap shots at historical figures whom he doesn't like. Evan Kirshenbaum ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Speaking of Tolkien. . . Date: 04 Sep 85 11:31:24 EDT (Wed) From: Burgess Allison Cc: Miller.pasa@xerox.ARPA >By the way, while we're on the subject, I'm looking for a NICE, >preferably illustrated copy of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings >to give as a wedding gift ... does anybody have information ... >anybody know how much a first edition HOBBIT might go for? Any >other suggestions ... (If anyone has something they might like to >sell, let me know, I'll think about it.) > >Reply to me presonally, Except for the for-sale information, I'd appreciate it if replies to this would go out on the net. Either that, or maybe Chris, you could summarize for the net. Good illustrations, first editions, other suggestions -- I think these are of fairly wide interest. Thanks. Burgess ------------------------------ From: decvax!minow@topaz.rutgers.edu (Martin Minow) Subject: Deus ex machina Date: 4 Sep 85 01:32:38 GMT The following quotation is from W. R. Yates's book, Diasporah (Baen Books, 1985): "Excuse me, Dr. Greenberg," said a woman's voice, "but I was told to wake you in time for dinner." Paul jerked from his sleep, but relaxed when he [discovered that] the voice was coming from the computer's vox box.... "Good evening, Gollum," he said. "Good evening," returned the emotionless vox box. "I've been wanting to talk to you," Paul said. "Really? What about?" "During the Shabbos service on the [space ship] Harpo Martz," Paul said, "you were saying something on the screen. What was it?" "Like any good Jew, I was participating in the service." "But you're a computer!" Paul answered. "And I am a sentient, rational being, capable of making my own decisions," the voice said. "By that definition, I have a soul." "Oh," Paul answered. [Paul walks downstairs and encounters his host, Dr. Goldstein:] "Hello Paul," said Dr. Goldstein. "How was the nap?" "Quite good," declared Paul. "I feel quite a bit better." "You look somewhat confused, Dr. Greenberg. Is something the matter?" "Your computer told me that it's a Jew." Goldstein laughed. "Are all of your computers Jewish?" "It depends on how sophisticated they are," explained [Dr. Goldstein's daughter] Shoshanna, bringing a covered tray from the kitchen. "Sooner or later, the computer runs up against the concepts of morality, and since our concepts are codified the Talmud, we insert a memory of it. From that point on, all of our computers have behaved in a perfectly moral fashion. "Sometimes, when working on a complex problem, the logic can be a little obtuse, but the computer always has a rational explanation -- in terms of the Talmud." How (theologiclly) realistic is this? PS: there are two words used in Diasporah that I know to be Swedish ("narkoman" for drug addict and "dator" for computer). Are these words found in Hebrew also? PPS: I know the title of this note is slightly inappropriate, but it appears to be a valid criticism of the book as literature -- unless the second half is much better than what I've read so far. Martin Minow decvax!minow ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 3 Sep 85 14:21:16 GMT X-MAN@SRI-NIC.ARPA writes: >My question is this -- Was that a wise choice for a representative >of all that is good in the field? If not what would you suggest to >your friends given the same opportunity? > -- Jeff T. Having thought about this problem a long time, my answer is "Flowers for Algernon" (by D.Keyes). It is inventive, well-written, effective, and approachable. It is undeniably SF, but a far cry from space opera, almost sure to dispel any mistaken beliefs about what SF has to be. In addition, it does not require any background in the field -- for example, you don't have to know what FTL is and why it's important to many stories. Besides, the story is a great tear-jerker without being sucky about it. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: Wed 4 Sep 85 10:28:25-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #346 > From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) > One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how long > is the author remembered? This isn't one hundred percent; not > matter how hard I try I cannot convince myself that Cooper was > writing great literature. BUT--what writer who is remembered and, > more, STILL READ after a hundred years failed to write stories or > books that were fun to read? Just to be obnoxious, the author of Pilgrim's Progress (Bunyan? If I can't get his name right, my claim's a lot weaker). I've never heard of anyone who liked Pilgrim's Progress, and I hang around English professors a lot. Most people don't read it voluntarily, though. Pax VAXque vobiscum, Bard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 85 13:56:32 PDT From: Peter Reiher Subject: Critics and art I composed a response to Mr. Brust's reply to one of my recent messages. Since it weighed in at over 100 lines, I'll just include the last paragraph here, and send the whole gargantuan mess to Mr. Brust. My point, before and now, is that one must beware of those who claim that readability is a *necessary* criterion for artistic greatness. Essentially, what I'm saying is this: I read a book, work hard at it because it isn't an easy book to read, get blown away by it, and tell people that it's a great book. They come back and say, "It isn't easy, so you're wrong." Moreover, they refuse to consider the possibility that expending more effort might convince them that there is something to my point of view. I can accept that some people do not want to spend effort on reading, that they read to relax and hear a good story, but I do object to having them then tell me that their criteria for art are better than mine, and that is precisely what some people have been saying. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 00:36:00 EDT From: Thomas Young Galloway For Ghu's sake, don't write to a concom to request an author's address! As a former Programming Chief for Philcon (i.e. the one who has the addresses), I a) would not have had time to send out addresses to any large number of people since I was busy getting out 100 plus thank you letters to the authors b) would not have done it since most likely a SASE would not have been enclosed, and c) would feel that it is an invasion of author's privacy and would turn you down anyway. If you meet an author at a con, why not ask him/her for their address? Or send it through their publisher. But consider why you want to contact the author. If it's just to say "Gee, I really enjoyed your book, Attack of the SlimeMold, it might be a good idea if the writer is a relative newcomer and might like this feedback. In the case of Anne McCaffrey, who has almost a pseudo religion built up around dragons, this has been said to her at least several thousand times. And reading it again will only waste time that she could be spending writing. This principle applies to all well known sf writers. Remember there's one of them and thousands of readers. And as far as making a request of a concom, remember that they are all volunteers, and giving out authors' addresses has nothing to do with running a convention. And since they are usually at least on an acquaintance basis with convention guests, they'll probably consider the author's privacy to be fairly important. tom galloway ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Sep 85 1150-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #352 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 352 Today's Topics: Books - Baldwin & Hubbard (2 msgs) & Tolkien & Request for Reviews & First SF Book (3 msgs), Films - Back to the Future, Television - Tripods, Miscellaneous - Star Wars (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: Helmsman by Bill Baldwin Date: 3 Sep 85 22:56:12 GMT This is a very good space opera/adventure story. It involves a young man from a looked-down-upon world who receives his first commission in the space navy. The setting is a galactic empire at war, and the author makes some effort to explain the technology of the times. The main character is a helmsman (pilot) interested in advancing his career, and he has a lot of initiative (similar to Horatio Hornblower of historical fiction fame). The known galaxy in the novel contains various sentients, and part of the story has to do with alien friendships which develop. The story is fast-paced, and I found the characters appealing and interesting. I'd rate this 3.5 stars on a scale of BOMB to 4, and I look forward to at least one sequel. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 275-0302 ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: L. Ron Hubbard's sf Date: 4 Sep 85 18:07:29 GMT I heard that all of L. Ron Hubbard's sf books (from before his religion founding phase--not talking about B.E.) were bought up by the scientologists and destroyed. They were evidently concerned that people would not believe their drek if they knew their founder was a sf writer. Is this true? If so, it would explain why I have never seen any old LRH at my local used sf bookstores. There are some, like "Fear", and "Typewriter in the Sky" which are supposed to be classics, and which I would like to add to my collection. I wouldn't buy them new--I know who would get the money. ------------------------------ From: ALAN@NCSUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: The "Battlefield Earth" sound track... Date: 4 Sep 85 13:41:16 GMT Must everything be taken as RELIGIOUS? Could Mr. Hubbard have, being of sound mind, written a book just for the pleasure of writing a book?? Alan Clegg USMail: 2801-23 Brigadoon Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 Net: ALAN@NCSUVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Bell: (919) 851-3246 ALAN@NCSUVAX.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA ------------------------------ From: drutx!jca@topaz.rutgers.edu (ArnsonJC) Subject: More on Tolkien Date: 4 Sep 85 22:16:54 GMT ***In reply to inquiries about Tolkien illustrated copies: My copy of 'The Hobbit' is a 1966 edition, 24th printing, and is illustrated by the author. It was published by Houghton Mifflin Co., Boston. 'The Lord of the Rings', 1967 (first American edition) has no illustrations, but the maps are drawn by Tolkien. same publisher 'Tom Bombadil', 1962, and 'Smith of Wooton Major', 1967 are both illustrated by Pauline Baynes. These are both first editions and therfore, I believe that Tolkien had the final say in approval of the illustrations before publication. ***More on Tolkien's sources: It is well know in literary circles that Tolkien was not only a noted philologist (sp?), an Oxford don, assisted in compilation of the Oxford English Dictionary, but was also considered one of the formost 'Beowulf' critics of this century. The concept of ring giving for favors rendered is very prevalent in 'Beowulf'---->Sauron gave rings of power as bribes Unferth, who sat at Hrothgar's feet---->Wormtongue Hrothgar---->Theoden Hrunting, Unferth's sword---->Narsil, Aragorn's sword the sword that Beowulf uses to kill Grendel's mother---> the Morgul blade and the sword of the Barrow Downs the dragon in 'Beowulf'--->Smaug Scyld's funeral boat---Boromir's funeral boat etc. **** The language of Rohan is very similar to Old English(OE). Eo, a preface to many Rohanian names--> OE 'eoh'- horse Ridermark-->OE 'ridda'-horseman 'mearc'-boundry Theoden--> OE '"t"eoden'-prince or king "t"-unprintable letter Ornthac--> OE 'or"t"anc-skillfull contrivance Isengard--> OE 'isen'-iron, 'geard'-dwelling Ent--> OE scion or graft of a tree etc. These entries were all found in the Oxford English Dictionary. jill c. arnson ihnp4!druky!drutx!jca ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: I want to see book reviews! Date: 3 Sep 85 22:42:24 GMT How about posting your impressions of new SF? I'm sure there are a lot of SF readers out there, but net.sf-lovers seldom seems to have anything about new books. I read a lot of SF and am willing to write a few paragraphs about some of the new stuff I read, and I'd like to see others do the same. I'm particularly interested in works by new authors, since those are the ones I'd be most prone to overlook. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 275-0302 ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ?? Date: 3 Sep 85 15:38:00 GMT Lord of Light is *my* all-time favorite SF book; I've read it more than any other single book. However, it is somewhat unconventional, poetic to the point of being lyrical, and is not the cup of tea for many of my friends who do read SF. Other titles I recommend to first time readers are (in no particular order): Startide Rising The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (but keep them away from most of Heinlein's other crud.) A Canticle for Liebowitz Tea With the Black Dragon and occasionally, depending on personality of prospective reader: Foundation Trilogy (but not #4, or Asimov's other recent crud) Neuromancer Generally, I look for something that the reader will find accessible yet "new" to them while being well written. For a new/skeptical SF reader, I think the accessibility is important. I agree with the tenor of your original posting. STAR WARS may have brought a lot of people into (junk) SF, but it's also kept a lot of people from discovering the good stuff. Cheers, from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet decvax!vortex!ism780!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb cca!ima!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 85 09:46:16 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? From: Peter Alfke Jeff Thompson writes: >My question is this -- Was that a wise choice for a representative >of all that is good in the field? If not what would you suggest to >your friends given the same opportunity? Not having read Lord of Light (sorry!), I will instead present an unabashed rave for a book that I would certainly suggest . . . At the moment I would recommend John Crowley's "Engine Summer", my (again, at the moment) favorite sf book. As far as micro-plot-synopsis: it takes place many centuries after the (non-nuclear) general collapse of our civilization, and follows a boy of a tribe that have an *exact* science of sociology, but no other scientific knowlege, in his journeys in an attempt to become a saint. This book is suffused with a "sense of wonder" -- the super-scientific devices of our near-future (and they are *original* super-scientific devices) are seen as quite magical by the characters in the story, and are presented through their eyes. Crowley lets one see these as magical holy relics, while simultaneously one realizes what they must 'really' be. The sense of wonder is one of the best and most important features of SF; it is certainly an essential feature of a "first" SF book. "Engine Summer" would make a wonderful first book, and in fact I strongly recommend it to anyone, no matter how SF-jaded they may be. Then, when you've finished it, read his "Little, Big"... --Peter Alfke PS: How else can you find out: Who are Dr. Boots' List? What is the Filing System? Who are the Four Dead Men, and why aren't there five, and are they the same Dead Men as the ones carved on a mountain? What do the silver ball and glove do? . . . ------------------------------ Cc: X-MAN@sri-nic.ARPA Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 05 Sep 85 13:44:21 EDT (Thu) From: Burgess Allison Particularly for would-be newcomers who are pre-disposed against BEMs, Wierd Science, and stream-of-bizarre-consciousness writing styles, I strongly suggest "The Stainless Steel Rat." A good read, well-written, starts fast, has a plot, and doesn't dwell on the bizarre or arcane. Harry Harrison could have just as easily written Slippery Jim into a completely different setting and it still would have been a good book. The SF setting enhances the story, and sparks the reader's imagination to go beyond what's written on the printed pages. That's my vote for best-in-an-introductory-role. Burgess Allison ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: BACK TO THE FUTURE questions Date: 5 Sep 85 13:00:42 GMT >From: pegasus!naiman (Ephrayim J. Naiman) >1) Was Marty's brother at the end of the move John Mcenroe (sp?) ? > I didn't see his name in any of the credits but I could've sworn > it was him. If it was John was his brother also John at the > beginning of the movie ? Marty's brother at any time in the movie was played by Marc McClure. He should look familiar to you --- he played Jimmy Olsen in the SUPERMAN (and SUPERGIRL) movies. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 12:32:43 edt From: mike%bambi@mouton Subject: "The Tripods" I caught the first episode of "The Tripods" on PBS (Channel 13, NYC) last night. It's a half-hour series in ~25 parts based on John Christopher's trilogy (THE WHITE MOUNTAINS, THE CITY OF GOLD AND LEAD, THE POOL OF FIRE). So far, it seems quite well done. I have a soft spot in my heart for the trilogy, since it was some of the first SF I read, and if it's showing in your area, you may want to check it out, too. - Mike ------------------------------ Subject: lightsabres an "inferior" weapon? Date: 04 Sep 85 22:07:04 PDT (Wed) From: Alastair Milne How can the lightsabre be considered an inferior weapon to the blaster? It can cut just about anything that isn't well shielded (in which case it plays old Harry with the shield itself) except for another lightsabre, it can be used with surgical precision, and, in the hands of trained Jedi, it will shield against all kinds of attack. Blasters, on the other hand, well get through lots of things eventually, but require some persistence for tougher things (like the doors in the imperial battle stations); as for their surgical accuracy -- well, look at Han's "surgery" on the green bounty hunter in the Mos Eisely cantina -- a little messy; and they won't shield against anything, unless you are really good at shooting your enemy's bolts out of the air as they're coming at you. In fact, given the consensus we seem to have on the quality of imperial armour, it seems lightsabres even do a better defensive job than it. No, I think the Jedi choose their favourite weapon properly, and not just to impress with what they could do against superior odds. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (and Blasters) Date: 4 Sep 85 15:20:35 GMT >From: Alastair Milne > I see no real reason, though, to assume that blasters are > particularly modern; and I'm pretty certain that the use of > lightsabres could never have been common, since using them > effectively required training with the Force. For the average > fighter, the blaster has probably been the weapon of choice for > quite a while. I don't agree. While a Jedi Knight can use a light saber much more effectively than a ordinary person, that doesn't mean that a ordinary soldier, with the proper training, couldn't make good use of one. In close combat, A light saber would be more useful than a blaster. I will admit that only a Jedi could deflect blaster shots, like Luke did on Jabba the Hutt's barge, since that would seem to require prescience. On a related topic, are blasters projectile or energy weapons? I had assumed that they were energy weapons, but I noticed that when I was watching 'The Empire Strikes Back' on tape a couple of nights ago, that the results were more like a explosive projectile. I also noticed what seemed to be an ammo clip on one blaster. Since, I don't recall ever seeing anyone reload a blaster, I would have to postulate a very small projectile, like a small needle, so that each blaster could fire a hundred rounds or more without reloading. It would also have an extremely high muzzle velocity, since KE = 1/2MV**2. Also do you remember Darth Vader deflecting a blaster bolt with his hand in TESB? What kind of armor is he wearing? Also notice that it didn't stop a light saber! ------------------------------ Date: 5 Sep 85 11:30:47 PDT (Thursday) From: Josh Susser Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349) Alastair Milne writes: >I think the idea behind the armour is possibly more psychological >than physical: confront the enemy with battalions of human >(probably) killing machines, with a faintly insectlike appearance >about the face...The Empire appears to enjoy this strategy of >giving machines menacing, disturbing appearances which are of no >real mechanical advantage to the machines themselves...Those >cockpits looked as if they had great compound eyes on each side of >them. Remember - these are films we are dealing with! You are right about the "menacing, disturbing appearances" being used for psychological reasons, but these were created by George Lucas for the benefit of the audience, not by the Empire for the troopers' foes. Storm troopers probably fought insectoid creatures with compound eyes as often as they fought mammalian sentients. In fact, quite a few troopers were probably insectoid themselves. Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials and Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy? And as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this? -- Josh Susser ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Sep 85 0852-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #353 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 10 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 353 Today's Topics: Books - Lovecraft & Niven (2 msgs) & Schmitz & Spinrad & Sucharitkul & Tremayne, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission & Contacting Authors & Storm Troopers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 6 Sep 85 20:13:10-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Kadath My copy of Lovecraft's The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath is in a book called At The Mountains of Madness, and other novels published in London, by Victor Gollancz Ltd, 1966. So it should be available in England. Robert Firth PS: and no, it is not for sale! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 22:39:26 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Planetary maps on the Ringworld >From: Tom Wadlow >Given that the Pak Protectors built the Ringworld, and that >there are maps of Earth, Mars, Down, Kzin, etc. . . > >I recall . . . that one of the maps was listed as "Unknown". >Perhaps that is the map of Pak. I wonder what might be there. If it were, it would not be identifiable. Remember that when Truesdale et al were deducing how the protector fleet they were headed out to meet could have been built, they said that they would induce large-scale vulcanism in the planet to bring new pockets of metals to the surface? Rearrangement on that scale would be unlikely to leave recognizable geography. ------------------------------ From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Racer X) Subject: Re: Protectors and Known Space Novels Date: 6 Sep 85 12:59:17 GMT Seems to me this "Niven has painted himself into a corner" argument is a crock, at least from Niven's point of view. Why can't he write a novel or some short stories occuring during, say, the first Man/Kzin war? What about some new Gil Hamilton stories? I'm sure these would be well received. Certainly, he's probably constrained from furthering the history and mythos of Known Space, but I hardly think this prevents him from writing about it entirely. I heard from a friend of a friend that talked to Niven at a convention. (Can YOU say "rumor"? I knew you could.) He said the reason he has collaborated so much in recent years is that he has been/is in a "dry" period, ideawise. However, this was before "Integral Trees" which, if nothing else, had some interesting ideas... Scott J. Berry ihnp4!hou2g!scott ------------------------------ From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: re: ""Research Alpha"" by Schmitz & Date: 4 Sep 85 21:18:00 GMT One of my great disapointments in life was that Schmitz never wrote (or at least published) the sequel to "The Witches of Karres". He spent the last chapter of the book version (which is longer than the original version) setting up the sequel. He recruited the gang and even set up some of the conflict. Then "". No sequel, and now he's dead. It would be nice if somebody good would write the sequel in Schmitz's style. I hope it would come out better than some of the "Lensman" stories written since Doc Smith died. (Although the story "Moon Prospector" by William B. Ellern is first rate) Chris "send me to the hub" Kostanick ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 85 12:37 EDT From: Stephen Mahan Subject: Scientology and stories I'm not too familiar with scientology, but it bears a suspicious resemblence to a cult featured in a Norman Spinrad book, 'The Mind Game'. The novel concerns a hack sf author who finds that a novel he has written is the basis for a cult. He takes over the cult, called Transformationalism, and builds it into a multi-billion dollar empire. There are obvious parallels between this and Hubbard's activities. I recommend the novel highly. steve ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: VAMPIRE JUNCTION by S. P. Somtow (Sucharitkul) Date: 11 Sep 85 07:05:06 GMT The Vampire--Jung and Old VAMPIRE JUNCTION by S. P. Somtow (Somtow Sucharitkul) Berkley, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper For years vampires have been drawn in the Freudian mode--as symbols of repressed sexuality in a Victorian era and so on. (Undoubtedly Freud would say that the vampire's fangs piercing the woman's body are obviously representative of the penis.) Now, it seems, it has become time for the Jungians to have their shot at the vampire legend, and S. P. Somtow (an admitted pseudonym for Somtow Sucharitkul) has obliged with VAMPIRE JUNCTION. Since it is less widely known than Freudian psychology, Jungian psychology should perhaps be briefly explained. The four identifiable aspects that appear in this novel are the ARCHETYPAL UNCONSCIOUS, the ANIMUS/ANIMA dichotomy, the theory of SYNCHRONICITY, and the goal of INDIVIDUATION. The archetypal unconscious forms half of a person's unconscious, the other half being personal, i.e., composed of the person's individual experiences. The archetypal, or collective, unconsciousness seems to be not unlike the concept of race memory. Jung's theory of animus/anima is another familiar idea--that of each individual having both male and female aspects. The theory of synchronicity postulates the coincidence of seemingly unrelated events having similar or identical meaning. (The same idea shows up in some of the strangest places--for example, the child-like character in REPO MAN, who talks about how, after you've just been thinking of a plate of shrimp, someone will say "plate" or "shrimp" or "plate of shrimp." But then, that's synchronicity for you.) Finally, individuation (according to Jung) is the process of uniting the conscious and the unconscious within oneself and hence becoming whole. End of psychology digression. Somtow's vampire, Timmy Valentine, seeks out a therapist to help him. But he needs a Jungian therapist, because he is the Jungian archetype, formed out of the collective unconsciousness of the human beings who see him. And they see him as they expect to see him--some as a cat stalking down the street, some as a flickering shadow, some as a rock star. He finds Carla Rubens, who tries to deal with the archetype turned flesh. She, in turn, was previously involved with Stephen Miles, an operatic conductor. Miles, while at Cambridge, was drawn into a satanic group called "The Gods of Chaos" (who knew of his pyromania and used that as a hold on him). During one of their ceremonies many years ago (in which a woman was murdered) Miles caught a glimpse of Valentine. Now the Gods of Chaos are re-uniting in Thailand to recover the two halves of an idol that will give them enormous power. It may *sound* incredibly coincidental, but the word is *synchronistic*. Valentine, in his two-thousand-year existence (give or take a century), has known many ages and many men. The usual symbols that the vampire fears no longer have any effect on him; with his age comes the wisdom that they cannot harm him. In most vampire stories, the humans fighting the vampire must believe in the symbols (especially the cross) to have them work; in this case, the vampire must believe. Valentine can walk about during the day, does not fear crosses, is not repelled by garlic, etc. But those that he makes vampires still have these fears--they have not yet outgrown them. While this book is written from a Jungian perspective, the frequent references to dreams seems distinctly Freudian. But these are not what we think of as dreams, but rather expressions of the collective unconscious. Valentine's house, with its ever-changing halls and rooms, is shaped by the union of its inhabitants unconsciousnesses. Whether you find the house, or Valentine, or the novel, convincing depends in large part on whether you find Jungian psychology convincing. And there is the real problem. Somtow can handle the horror scenes fairly well (though Junction, Idaho, reminds me a lot of 'Salem's Lot). The premise of a vampire living through various horrors of history is hardly new, but Somtow does manage to put some twists on it that I hadn't seen before (and I tend to follow vampire novels). But the story of Valentine's two-millenia search for individuation, and its culmination, fails to convince me even on the level required for a vampire novel. I mean, one is willing to accept *some* mysticism, but it seems unlikely to me that even a dedicated Jungian would accept this novel. Though Somtow writes with a certain flair, the inherent unfamiliarity of his concepts (at least to most) will make this book very difficult to enjoy, which is a pity. I find the Jungian analysis of the vampire interesting, and it gives a different interpretation than the usual Freudian one. But the extent to which Somtow tries to put all of Jungian psychology in this novel smothers the originality that it would otherwise display. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: bridge2!bjl@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Peter Tremayne Date: 3 Sep 85 19:25:17 GMT Awhile back (and I still have the book) I read a book by Peter Tremayne (a british publication) which was the first in a fantasy trilogy, I have forgotten the name of the book, it is something "Lan". Has anyone else read it? Or been able to locate the second and third books? shanti, bobbie (dewrl, sun) bridge2!bjl Bridge Communications 1345 Shorebird Way Mt. View, CA (415) 969-4000 x267 to talk in person ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 21:53:06 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Matter Transmission To: graffiti!peter@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU > From: graffiti!peter@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva) > ... What would this do to manufacturing processes? I imagine we would have the same sort of confusion and piracy that now exists in the software field, where transmission and duplication are already commonplace. In George Smith's _Venus Equilateral_ (1942) the main problem caused by the invention of a matter transmitter and duplicator is what to use for money. The solution in the book was to invent a material that could not be duplicated or transmitted. I think a more likely solution would be to go to a pure credit economy. We are fairly close to one already. Note that in a pure service economy, matter duplication does not really change much! If such a thing were invented today, it would change civilization much less than if it were invented 40 years ago. The main effects would be a rapid colonization of space and an end to poverty. > ... Friends of the Earth or the Audubon Society (don't worry > about the whooping cranes, they're all on file). Not so far fetched. A creature is completely specified by its genetic code. Several years ago I saw the complete genetic code for some virus printed in a magazine. As long as a copy of that magazine exists, that virus will never really become extinct. I hope that as soon as someone completely analyzes the smallpox virus (which now exists only in a few labs) that all smallpox viruses will be destroyed. A person's genetic code would fit on one or two RA81 disks. James Hogan's idea (in _Voyage from Yesteryear_ (1982)) that unborn people may travel to the stars in the form of data on a computer may be workable. An equally fascinating idea is that it may be possible to recover enough fragments of DNA from fossils to reconstruct extinct creatures, such as dinosaurs (see _Re-entry_ by Paul Preuss (1981)). > Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could you ever > truly die? Sure. If all the copies get wiped out. Just as books, music, and computer data can become irretrievably lost. The more copies, and in the more places, the better. Keep one in another solar system (it's called supernova insurance). And whatever else happens, if it is true that the universe will ultimately contract to a single ultra-dense ultra-hot point, it seems very unlikely that any information could survive, even if there is an 'after'. Other cosmologists believe that the universe will continue to expand forever, and ultimately the total amount of free energy available will drop too low for any kind of life. This may take as long as 10 to the 100th power years, which is an incomprehensibly long time, at least for me. (See _The Future of the Universe_ in the March 1983 issue of Scientific American, and _Star Maker_ by Olaf Stapledon (1937)). ...Keith ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 6 Sep 1985 04:21:09-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: How to contact authors > From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) > donch@teklabs.UUCP (Don Chitwood) writes: >> Does anyone in netland know how to go about contacting her or the >> author of one's choice? > > You can get whatever address is best used to write to an author by > going to (or calling) your reference librarian. There is a > wonderful book which she will have... which can give you what you > need. Sometimes it is just the agent's address, but often it is > the author's real live home address. Two reference books that I know of that contain such information (and that most libraries are likely to have) are: CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS, a series of volumes (100+ at the moment) giving biographical and bibliographical information about many authors living and dead. Many of the entries contain addresses for either home, office, or agent. The one caveat to this is that any given author entry isn't updated for a good long time, so the information *may* be out of date. WRITERS' DIRECTORY, gives similar information, though leans less toward the bibliographical than CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS. There is also a series of books published by St. Martin's Press (reprinted from a British publisher) called the Twentieth Century Authors Series, which should also contain the same information, though is isn't as wide-ranging as CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS. Included in this series are: TWENTIETH CENTURY SCIENCE FICTION AUTHORS " " CRIME AND MYSTERY WRITERS " " CHILDREN'S WRITERS " " WESTERN WRITERS " " ROMANCE AND GOTHIC WRITERS --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 85 10:01:00 PDT From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- Storm Tropper Armor --- Someone suggested that the armor was not meant to be a defense from weapons, then called attention to the fact that modern military uniforms are more protection agains mosquitos and thorns than anything else, because armor would be too bulky. Point 1). The troopers ALREADY HAVE bulky armor. why not make effective agains blaster fire, along w/ the comm & life support unctions. Point 2). Modern military DOES have flak jackers, etc. to protect against weapons. We did see a second (lighter) style of armor on the speeder bike scouts. There MUST be a purpose to the heavier style! Just as there are heavier uniforms that include flak protections, etc. -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Sep 85 0908-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #354 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 10 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 354 Today's Topics: Books - Tolkien & Pilgrim's Progress & The Golem in Literature, Miscellaneous - Choosing Books & Critics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of Tolkien. . . Date: 5 Sep 85 20:28:00 GMT At last year's WorldCon, I saw a first edition of The Hobbit; asking price was at *least* $1,000. It might have been $5,000. I walked away boggled. from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 85 14:16:13 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: _Pilgrim's Progress_ *I* liked it. Perhaps this was because I was never required to read it? ...Keith ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: The Golem in Literature Date: 11 Sep 85 06:39:02 GMT THE GOLEM IN LITERATURE An article by Mark R. Leeper An Introduction Back when I was ten or eleven years old I used to get monster movie bubble gum cards. They usually had familiar stills from monster movies. One, however, puzzled me a bit. It looked like a human-shaped furnace with glowing eyes and a disproportionately big fist. It was labeled simply "The Golem." There was no explanation as to what the Golem was. Since I usually recognized what was on these cards, I filed in the back of my mind that there is something called a "Golem" that I wanted to know more about. It didn't occur to me to look in a dictionary any more than it would to look up "Godzilla." Dictionaries never have the really interesting words! A month or so later my parents were going to a Yiddish play put on at the Jewish Community Center. It was called "The Golem," and was written by H. Leivik. Now I knew darn well that my mother did not go to plays about monsters that looked like human-shaped furnaces with glowing eyes and disproportionately big fists. She saw BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN when she was growing up and decided on the spot that any story with a monster was stupid. It had to be just a coincidence of name, right? Well, my parents came back from the play and told me I would have liked the story..."it was weird." It was about a rabbi who made a man out of clay. At this point I realized that the bubble gum card and the play were somehow related, and even more surprising, this monster was somehow a Jewish monster. I did some research into Golems and discovered that they are indeed creatures of Jewish folklore that have been the subject of monster movies. (Incidentally, there turned out to be one other traditional Jewish monster, a dybbuk. It is a possessing spirit, not too unlike the one in THE EXORCIST.) There are apparently several Golem stories in Jewish folklore, but I have found nothing but fleeting references to any Golem legend other than "The Golem of Prague." The story is set in Prague in the 16th Century. The Jewish community is threatened by blood-libels--claims that they were murdering Christian children and using their blood to make matzoh. (Actually, Jewish law strictly forbids the consumption of any blood at all.) A Christian who murdered a child and planted it in a Jew's house could report the Jew. The Jew would be executed and his property would be split between the Christian who reported him and the government. Clearly the ghetto needed a very good watchman. Rabbi Judah Loew used information from the Kabalah--the central book of Jewish mysticism--to learn the formula by which God first made man out of clay, and with the help of two other pious men built a man out of clay and brought him to life. The final step of this process was to place God's secret name on a parchment and place it in the forehead of the Golem. Loew's Golem was between 7-1/2 and 9 feet tall and had tremendous strength, but had a very placid and passive disposition when not under orders to act otherwise. He also lacked the one faculty that only God can give, the power of speech. Because this giant was passive and mute, people in the ghetto assumed he was half-witted and the word "golem" has also come to mean "idiot." One story about the early days of this Golem was probably inspired by "The Sorcerer's Apprentice." The Golem was told to fetch water, but was not told how much. The result was a minor flood. This tendency to do what he was told to do, not what he was expected to do, has endeared the Golem story to computer people like Norbert Wiener. It may also be part of the basis of Asimov's robot stories. At night the Golem guarded the ghetto, catching all would-be libelists red-handed. He single-handedly ended the possibility of successfully blood-libeling the Jewish community. Loew then got the Emperor to end the practice of letting blood-libelers profit from their actions. When the Golem was no longer needed, Loew removed the parchment, returning the Golem to being a statue, and the statue was laid to rest in the attic of the synagogue. A popular variation on the story has the Golem rebel and become an uncontrolled monster before being stopped and returned to clay. It has been speculated that Mary Shelley patterned FRANKENSTEIN on this story. The Golem has appeared several times on the screen, though only once in an English-language film. The first cinematic appearance was in DER GOLEM (1914) with Paul Wegener in the title role. The story deals with the modern discovery and re-animation of the Golem. This was apparently a lost film until it was found again in 1958. It still is almost never seen. Wegener returned to the role in a second German film, also called DER GOLEM (1920). This film is loosely based on "The Golem of Prague." The Jews are portrayed as being weird magicians who live in a strange expressionistic ghetto. In fact, the early parts of the film seems to presage the anti-Semitism that was soon to engulf Germany. The images of the Jewish community are not all that different looking than those of propaganda films of the following years. One of the most interesting touches of the film is the subplot of Prince Florian. The beautiful Prince Florian wants to save the rabbi's daughter from the destruction that is to come to the Jews. However, Florian is so unctuous and disgusting that when he is killed by the Golem, the viewer is more relieved than shocked, and perhaps that is just what was intended. In any case, the Golem is able to avert destruction of the Jewish community. Then the Golem's own love for the rabbi's daughter is denied and he becomes a dangerous monster only to be destroyed by a child's hand. The rabbi then praises God for twice saving the Jews of the ghetto. Wegener may have also made a lesser known German film, THE GOLEM AND THE DANCER, in 1917. The actual existence of this film has never been established. A French-Czech film called THE GOLEM was made in 1935. Harry Baur starred in the story which was done much in the style of a Universal horror film. The story deals with another tyrannical attempt to destroy Jews. Through much of the film, the rediscovered Golem remains chained in a tyrant's dungeon. Just when things are at their blackest, the Golem comes to life and destroys everything, once again saving the Jews. A number of Czech comedies have been about the Golem, including THE GOLEM AND THE EMPEROR'S BAKER (1951). In this, the Golem ends up as an oven for the baker. The only English-language Golem film I know of is a British cheapie called IT! (1967) with Roddy McDowell. A psychotic museum curator who lives with the corpse of his mother acquires the Golem of Prague and uses it for his own purposes. In the end, the Golem survives a nuclear blast that kills his master and he quietly walks into the sea. [Moderator's Note: This article was too large to include in its entirety. The article will be continued in the next digest.] ------------------------------ Date: 6 Sep 1985 at 1915-EDT Subject: Separating wheat from chaff From: jim at TYCHO.ARPA (James B. Houser) Having been looking at AI type issues recently, I thought it would be interesting to write down the rules by which the decision is made whether to read a SF book or not. In other words, what is the search strategy used on a visit to your local book emporium. These rules immediately came to mind. (A given rule base would actually have a basic and personnalized portion.) Any thoughts? Decision Rules for SF Books Positive Indicators 1. If book is rewritten by an author you have previously liked. (This effect of this rule is a function of how recent the experience is. Sometime good authors peak and seriously decline ala MZB.) 2. If the cover information sounds good. 3. If you have the prerequisites for the book. (Fairly silly to buy book 42 of the Gorblatz trilogy if you haven't read at least one of the first 41.) 4. If the book is your Genre type. (I have observed that each person tended to read only certain genres of SF. These categories include; swords and sorcery, mechano-SF, psychic stuff, and so on.) 5. If the book is on your target list. (After all if 6 zillion people on SFL said a book is great you have to keep an eye out for it.) Negative Indicators 1. If the cover refers to Lord of the Rings or Tolkien. (Books like Sword of Sha-na-na fall into this category If the cover says something to the effect that "this book makes LOTR look like dog manure" don't even THINK about buying it.) 3. If the book is heavily illustrated. (This often results from trying to pass a short story off as a novel. See large print rule.) 4. If the publisher used very large type and wide spacing. 5. If book is found in convenience type store next to romances. 6. If book involves intelligent sea mammals. (Especially dolphins!) 7. If book is a cleverly concealed re-issue. (Can be hard to detect.) 8. If book is written by an author that you have had previous bad luck with. 9. If you have heard bad things about book from friends, net etc. (For example, Thomas Covenant the Unbelievable.) 10. If there is no cover blurb to speak of. ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Re: critics Date: 3 Sep 85 12:57:57 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >It is my considered (and I do mean considered) opinion (and I do >mean opinion) that to be great art a book must be, first of all, a >good read. If something is sufficiantly inaccessible that it >cannot be read for fun, it fails as art because it will only speak >to that small segment of the population that is already prepared to >listen; its exploration of (if I may) the human condition is wasted >on those who could otherwise get the most out of it.... Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it can't be great art? And if you have to work to understand it, ditto? You might argue (as many did when Joyce, Eliot, and Pound first published) that it's perverse and snobbish to pour a great talent into the production of work that's more or less opaque to the average *contemporary* reader. Such work may show a certain lack of social or political concern on the part of the artist, but I don't see why that makes it bad art. Anyway, what about older books? Most of the works of literature -- not all, but most -- from which I've learned most about the human condition and so forth were books I had to read quite a few times before I felt comfortable enough with them that I could say I was having fun. How much fun is Hamlet the first time around? And after you've gone through it many times, and it's begun to occupy a special place in your thinking about the world (if it does), is "fun" really the right word for what you finally get out of it? A great many books that have changed my way of looking at things were lots of fun from the moment I picked them up, but plenty of them repaid a bit of study. Sometimes it was even worth reading the works the author read in order to get a better sense of his/her way of seeing things. >One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how >long is the author remembered? By whom? Homer's work is a hell of a lot of fun once you get into it. So are the Canterbury Tales; so's a lot of Shakespeare, for that matter. How much of this stuff would have survived at all if it hadn't been preserved and taught in the schools? >what writer who is remembered and, more, STILL READ after a hundred >years failed to write stories or books that were fun to read? All these people wrote works that were fun to read, but they didn't STAY fun to read when their languages ceased to be current. At this point, if it's more than a hundred years old, either you do a little studying or you miss a lot. And the further back you go, the less accessible the writing gets, until (as in the case of Shakespeare) you're missing allusions to matters that were as common then as the six o'clock news is now -- like the way cloth is woven, the way a sailing ship works, who all the Greek gods were, and so on. Or (as in the case of Chaucer) all of the above, plus the fact that you're virtually looking at a foreign language. Or (as in the case of Homer), the fact that you ARE looking at a foreign language. >I have read ULYSSES. It fails as great literature. It speaks only >to the inellectual elite. This isn't bad; the intellectual elite >could use some speaking to, but great literature must be inclusive, >not exclusive. > >I wish I were good enough that I could have written ULYSSES. But I >say that the same way one says, "I wish I could afford an >elephant." I don't want the elephant, I just wish I could afford >one. Joyce trained to write ULYSSES by reading a lot of difficult books and studying a few languages. He moved to Europe from Ireland chiefly because the culture he was born into was too provincial to allow him access to the flow of invention and inspiration that was sweeping the Continent at the time. I mention this because many of my favorite science fiction writers have studied relatively inaccessible works (references to Joyce, to Pablo Neruda, to Jung, to dozens of "mainstream" writers, abound in the work of Zelazny, for instance) and the richness and depth of their style, and of their ideas, seem to me to have benefited from the scope of their investigations. >But the point about critics is this: I believe that good writing >must be accessable. But "accessable" varies from person to person. And varies over time. What was inaccessible to me in sixth grade is easy going now. I once wanted to be able to write ULYSSES too, but at this point -- as you suggested -- I just wish I had a fraction of the capital with which Joyce bought his elephant. I believe the way to save that up is to read books by writers with interesting styles and interesting ideas. Some of them are hard going and others are great fun, but that's no measure of what I get out of them in the long run. I suppose I'm saying that in order to have good writers, you have to have good writers -- not hard writers or easy ones, just good ones. I think if you insist that a work be easy reading and fun (RIGHT AWAY!), you may not be giving it a chance. One of the reasons I enjoy reading the newsgroups is that, just as in more formal publications, people write well here. I just can't believe such good writing has developed without at least some study of our language and literature. I think I know what the work of people who read only "fun stuff" looks like: as an editor, I'm often called on to reorganize their writing for publication. To my knowledge [!!!] I've never seen clear, fluent, interesting writing from someone whose first criterion for choosing a book was that it be accessible. If that's what I'm looking at now, well, it's never too late to learn. Judith Abrahms {ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Sep 85 0913-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #355 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 10 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 355 Today's Topics: Books - First SF Book & The Golem (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Chris Lloyd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 85 23:04:42 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? >From: Jeff Thompson >One of my friends is generally derisive of sf. . . Recently, >she agreed to read one sf novel of my choice. I suggested >"Lord of Light", which she is reading now. > >My question is this -- Was that a wise choice for a >representative of all that is good in the field? If not what >would you suggest to your friends given the same opportunity? Fond as I am of Zelazny in general and that book in particular, I don't feel that it is a good beginner's piece at all, unless the person happens to know Hindu mythology without being sensitive to what s/he might perceive as a parody. My recommendation would depend a great deal on the individual, but I would select one from the following, based on the kind of fiction the person otherwise enjoyed. _The Mote in God's Eye_ by Niven and Pournelle _Up the Walls of the World_ by "Tiptree" _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ by Heinlein _The Left Hand of Darkness_ by LeGuin Each of these is a superlative example of one of the genres of SF, has a story line hascharacter development, has protagonists with whom one can identify. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: The Golem in Literature Date: 11 Sep 85 06:39:02 GMT THE GOLEM IN LITERATURE An article by Mark R. Leeper [Moderator's Note: This article is continued from the previous digest.] This article will cover all those books about the Golem that I wanted to read for years and never got around to. This article was a good excuse. So here goes. THE GOLEM by Gustav Meyrink (Dover, 1976 (1928), $4.50*.) This is not actually a tale of the supernatural, in spite of the title, though at time the strange things that happen border on the supernatural and the events are all overshadowed by the legend of the golem. Athanasius Pernath is a Christian living in the Jewish quarter of Prague. He is interested in the golem legends, particularly the Golem of Prague, but as someone comments, everyone seems to be talking about the golem. Pernath's own personality seems to parallel that of the golem--he seems to have little will of his own other than that of altruism. Much of the book is really just observation of the inhabitants of the Ghetto until Pernath becomes embroiled in a crime that another has committed. This is not light reading any more that Camus's THE STRANGER is. It has a plot but more important is the character's introspection, the truths the character is learning about himself and the characters around him. Time and again Pernath returns to the legend of the golem in his thoughts as his life patterns itself after the golem's. He is used by many of the characters, some well-meaning but needing help, others selfish, and his wish to set things right is his only reward. In essence he is a human golem. Meyrink found writing the novel almost as bewildering as it is for the reader to read it or the character to live it. Somewhere towards the middle (Bleiler says in the introduction to the Dover edition), Meyrink lost track of the multiplicity of his characters and needed a friend to graph them out geometrically on a chess board before he could proceed. The result is not one, but many stories intertwined, which adds to the difficulty in reading the novel, but also gives a number of views of the Jewish Ghetto in pre- World-War-II Prague. This is not an entertaining novel, but it is worthwhile to read. *The Dover edition also includes THE MAN WHO WAS BORN AGAIN by Paul Busson. THE GOLEM by H. Leivick (in THE DYBBUK AND OTHER GREAT YIDDISH PLAYS, Bantam, 1966, $1.25.) This is one of the most famous plays of Yiddish theater. H. Leivick (actually Leivick Halper) re-tells once again the story of the Golem of Prague, but in more obscure and symbolic terms. To be frank, the play probably requires a closer reading than I was willing to give it (if not actually seeing a production). It is a long play, written in verse, that requires study and an investment of time rather than the quick reading I gave it, so these comments should be taken as first impressions. Certain concessions had to be made to dramatic style. The primary concession was that this Golem speaks. A mute character in a stage drama would be little more than a mime, and Leivick wanted to get into the character of the man-made man. That he certainly does, more successfully than any other version of the story I know of. In spite of the Golem's stature, he is troubled and fearful. In following the rabbi's orders, he is usually as fearful as any normal human would be. He is reluctant to go into dark caves at the rabbi's bidding. He is stigmatized and lonely. Much of what is happening in the play is going on on a symbolic and metaphysical plane. Dark figures, never explained, appear and carry on abstract conversations. I think that the style of the play can be exemplified by stage directions like "the brightness of invisibility begins to glow around him." Even the stage directions are obscure! I will leave this play for others to interpret. THE GOLEM OF PRAGUE by Gershon Winkler (Judaica Press, 1980, $9.95.) Winkler's book is in two parts: an introduction and the story itself. The story does not start until page 75, so the introduction is a major part of the book and deserves separate comment. Part of the reason is not what the introduction says about Golems but because of what it says about Winkler. In Winkler's description of his occupation, he says that he "teach[es] Torah weekly on Long Island, primarily to young Jewish adults with minimal Jewish knowledge and identity, and he has also been helping young Jews return from 'Hebrew-Christian' and Far Eastern movements." He begins his introduction with an attack on what he calls "sciencism." The latter is apparently a belief, fostered by scientific reasoning, that leads one to be skeptical of the existence of God and miracles. As an example, he says, "For more than fifty years, the museum's exhibition of a stooped, ape-like man helped many people in our culture to overcome their guilt over the rejection of G-d and the idea of Creation... In 1958, the Congress of Zoology in London declared that the 'Neanderthal Man' was really nothing more than the remains of a modern-type man, affected by age and arthritis... Nevertheless, these scientific errors were never expressed to the subsequent generations of school children. Such a public revelation would have been outright and left humanity with no alternative explanation for the phenomenon of existence but G-d." Winkler has a section on "Making Golems" in his introduction. He rambles for 16 pages on a few Golem legends and references to the ineffable name of God. On the actual subject of the section, he has only the following helpful words to say: "It is not within the scope of this overview to discuss the mystical mechanics of THE BOOK OF FORMATION and how to use it to make Golems. Readers are advised to study day-to-day Judaism first, before investigating its profound mystical dimensions. After many years of having mastered the down-to-earth aspects of the Torah, on both the practical and intellectual level, one can then examine books like DERECH HASHEM... which discusses the interactive relationships of the natural and supernatural, and the role of the Divine Names." If that was all he had to say on the subject, it is not clear why he tried to tantalize the reader by having an extensive section promising to tell more. The introduction also includes a picture labeled "Monument to the Maharal's [Loew's] Golem standing at the entrance of the old Jewish sector of Prague." No further explanation is given. This would be an impressive sight if it were not obviously a picture of a knight in Teutonic armor. Anyone who recognizes German armor would not be taken in by this fraud perpetrated by a man trying to convince us of the superiority of his religious views. In short, I am less than impressed with the introduction. As Winkler gets into the main text of the story, he editorializes less but there is still a strong undercurrent of didactic lecturing in his writing. The story of the Golem of Prague is broken into short stories extolling the values of a good Jewish education and traditional Jewish values. The real common thread of these stories is Rabbi Judah Loevy (a.k.a. Loew). In many of the stories the Golem itself is the most minor of characters. The stories are really about the mystical wisdom and power of the rabbi. In these stories we see no end of evils caused by not giving a Jew a proper Jewish education or by a young Jewish woman marrying a Christian. The vehemence with which the Christians want to convert Jews verges on the incredible. In one story, the Duke wants so much to win one Jewish woman to Christianity that he is willing to marry his only son to her. The two do indeed fall into love, but the bride-to-be decides she cannot betray her family. Eventually the two marry, but only after the Duke's son converts to Judaism. In this version of the story, the Golem is much less monstrous and apparently indistinguishable from a flesh-and-blood human. Yet as the story requires, he seems to have strange magical powers. In one story he can see a soul hovering over a grave; in another he has an amulet of invisibility. The stories start to lose interest as the Golem has too many powers, all bestowed on him by Rabbi Loevy. Oddly enough, the only character of real interest is the arch-villain Father Thaddeus. From "the green church," as it is called, he hatches plot after plot against the Jews. By turns he is charming and then vicious and ruthless--whatever is called for in his anti-Semitic plots. The depth of his hatred is never fully gauged by the reader until he cold-bloodedly murders a young (Christian) child in order to frame the Jews for ritual murder. After Thaddeus dies, the stories have a marked drop in quality. Rabbi Loevy himself is the paragon of Jewish learning and knowledge. In investigating crimes, his first question is always the one that leads to the solution. Paragons make very dull characters, and since his thought processes are arrived at only through religious knowledge far beyond that of the reader, he never becomes a comprehensible character. Winkler clearly looses steam in his story-telling in the second half of his tale, but the first half is worth reading far more than the introduction or the second half. THE SWORD OF THE GOLEM by Abraham Rothberg (Bantam, 1970, $1.25.) Of the various re-tellings of the story of the Golem of Prague, this is certainly the most readable and the most enjoyable, though perhaps not the most faithful to its source material. The Golem in this version is, for the first time, a believable three- dimensional character. He doesn't just walk, he talks, he feels, he loves, he hates, and if pushed far enough, he kills. Instead of being broken into short stories of threats against individuals in the Jewish community, this novel is one continual threat and eventually a riot against the Jews. The Golem in all this is not a protective angel sent by Rabbi Low (the spelling in this version) who is just an extension of the Rabbi. The Golem sympathizes with the Jewish community and considers himself to be Jewish, but he has free will and his own reasons for doing what he does. Another reason this is the most enjoyable version is that for once even the anti-Jewish Christians are portrayed as more than just thugs. There is more than one debate between Rabbi Low and Brother Thaddeus, the chief instigator of the anti-Semitism. Of course, to the reader it is clear that Thaddeus loses the debate, but his reasons for what Thaddeus does come much clearer in any other version. One could almost stretch it to the point that Thaddeus is a sympathetic character. He at least believes that his hatred of the Jews is well-founded in Catholic doctrine and his arguments for anti-Semitism do come out of a twisted idealism, rather than just selfishness as other versions of the story indicate. This 1970 novel is dedicated "most of all to the great Leivick, who breathed new life into the Golem's clay." But I feel I can recommend the book more highly than the play. In fact, this (which was the last major Golem work I read) is the most satisfying and the only one I recommend as a novel. THE TRIBE by Bari Wood (Signet, 1984, $2.95.) This was the first that I read of the works reviewed here. It gave me the idea for this article. When I was growing up, I wanted to write a horror novel about a golem. I had a whole story plotted out, but it was never written. Now, unfortunately, Bari Wood has beaten me to the punch with THE TRIBE. Sadly, it turns out to be more a murder story than the real pull-out-all-the-stops horror story I had envisioned. The story starts with the mystery of why one barracks of Jews at the Belzec concentration camp given very special treatment. They were not only left alive, but in addition, the SS gave them the best food available. They were eating canned sausage while the SS were eating garbage. Flash forward to the present when five blacks who mug and murder the son of one of the survivors of that barracks are themselves brutally murdered. The story then tells in boring detail about the affair between the murdered Jew's widow and the black police inspector who was a close friend of her husband's father. Any given paragraph by Wood is clearly written, but this story seems to jump back and forth in time with disconcerting rapidity. The legends that this story was built around have a much greater potential than this story would indicate. The whole story is preparation for the final few pages, when the characters finally get to confront the evil that until that point they had only heard about second-hand. Like too many contemporary horror novels, there is too much writing without enough worthwhile story. If you want to read a novel about the Golem, this is not the one to start with. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: The Golem in Literature Date: 6 Sep 85 12:30:20 GMT Another book featuring a golem is a recent work, titled _The Red Magician_. Unfortunately, I have forgotten the author's name. It's a pleasant little book about how a jewish magician (using Kaballah, of course) manages to save an eastern european town. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ Subject: Chris Lloyd Date: 07 Sep 85 16:59:32 PDT (Sat) From: Doug Krause Add one more. Last night (more or less) I saw a made-for-tv movie on cable. It was called "Money On The Side". It had Christopher Lloyd as Det. Sgt. Stan Pone investigating a housewife prostitution ring. Doug Krause dkrause@uci-icsb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 10 Sep 85 0930-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #356 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 10 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 356 Today's Topics: Books - First SF Book (2 msgs), Television - Tripods, Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: figmo@tymix.Tymnet (Lynn Gold) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 85 07:43:14 pdt Subject: First SF book -- an "anti-suggestion" Harrison's "The Stainless Steel Rat" is ok, but I would hesitate to recommend it as a first book. It had a well-thought-out storyline, but some of the writing was atrocious from a grammatical standpoint. I ESPECIALLY would not recommend it to a woman as first-time reading. There were too many aspects of the book which came off as an adolescent male's sexual fantasies; I'd come to these passages where I'd think, "How much longer is this going to go on for before we get back to the action?" when Slippery Jim was fantasizing about Angelina. --Lynn UUCP: ...tymix!figmo ARPA: FIGMO@MIT-MC.ARPA ------------------------------ From: teklds!davidl@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Levine) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 5 Sep 85 17:46:31 GMT In the subgenre of HARD SF, I'd recommend that the first book to give to a non-SF reader is "The Mote in God's Eye." It was specifically written by Niven and Pournelle to be understandable without an SF background, to increase its public acceptance, and I believe it was one of the first SF books to make the New York Times' best-seller list. I think it also won several SF awards (sorry, I don't have my reference works handy). "Mote" has some of the most well-developed and believable aliens I know of, examines the impact of technolgy on societies, delves into the "joy of discovery" that is a major theme of hard SF, and is considered by many to be a classic of the field. It also has the advantage of not being part of a trilogy. David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP] (teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay.csnet) [ARPA] ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE TRIPODS (based on John Christopher) Date: 6 Sep 85 17:13:59 GMT THE TRIPODS A television review by Mark R. Leeper It is England some 100 years in the future, but it might be 100 years in the past for the level of technology. Things seem frozen in time and the only thing around that seems beyond the 19th Century are the alien tripods, maybe forty or fifty feet high, towering over the landscape. As each person in the village becomes an adult, a strange metallic framework is embedded into the top of his or her head that makes him or her a happy and docile worker. Nothing really original here. The series is based on the books THE WHITE MOUNTAINS, THE CITY OF GOLD AND LEAD, and THE POOL OF FIRE by John Christopher. The trilogy will be told in 25 half-hour episodes. Based on an insufficient sample, I would say the acting is good and the special effects adequate. I have a used copy of THE WHITE MOUNTAINS and the previous owner pencilled in "Boy Scout stuff" on the first page. He was probably right, but the same could be said of the STAR WARS novel. That was not too bad as a film. The series seems worth watching. Watch for it on PBS stations. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: anti-Art Snobbery Date: 4 Sep 85 16:53:48 GMT Note: > Jerry's response back to me >> my response >>> Jerry's original posting boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: > The point I read in the article to which I responded was >that because DHALGREN [supposedly] won a Nebula, it must be a >terrific work of art. I merely wished to refute that. He also >implied that because the Nebulas were chosen by writers rather than >fans, the winners of such are a more estimable lot. I wished to >refute that also. I'm afraid I didn't get that from your posting. Since I don't have the full text of the original article, I can't really do anything but take your word for it and assume I misread you for some reason. If this was what you said, I agree with you on both points. >> If feeling like a persecuted 'anti-Art snob' is enjoyable, be our >> guest. But don't you think this is just a little bit paranoid, >> Jerry? > >No, I don't. And I never said whether I enjoyed being a persecuted >anti-Art snob or even if I *considered* myself such. The original >poster seemed to feel there is an anti-Art snob conspiracy >abounding. Isn't *that* just a little bit paranoid? *I* didn't >bring up the concept of the anti-Art snob. Turnabout is fair play. I don't recall the 'conspiracy' attitude in the original posting you refer to. Perhaps you can post a sample illustrating this. I was reacting to the following statement in which you seemed to think that you were being labelled unfairly by the original poster: >>>... So am I now branded as an anti-Art snob despite the fact >>>that I liked ... [list of Delany's other works] I'm afraid I don't understand who's branding you an 'anti-Art' snob, or why the original posting rated this kind of reaction. But perhaps I didn't read the posting you were reacting to closely enough, and if this is the case I apologize for misjudging your reaction. >No, no one has called anyone an "anti-intellectual fool" in so many >words, but hasn't that been the tone of Tucker's ravings, at least? >Hasn't he gone on at length about how sf fans and readers are >content to read [note: I don't have the previous SFL's to quote >from verbatim] soporific fiction of the likes of Asimov, Heinlein, >et alia, rather than the enlightening works of Literary Craftsmen? >Hasn't he, *in essence* called those who prefer to read Piers >Anthony rather than Jorge Luis Borges anti-intellectual fools? Since I stopped reading Mr. Tucker's posting halfway through the third when he started getting repetitious and more than a little silly, I really can't say. But the Devil's Advocate performs a useful function, I think; there's something to be said for challenging people to defend their passion for something and THINK about why they like or dislike something. The sheer volume and passion of the postings on this topic over the last few months testify to Mr. Tucker's success, I think. Some people like to argue and wave their arms around; others feel personally threatened by such argument. A lot of the perceived hostility in this newsgroup may be due to people misreading each others' intentions. My own interpretation of Mr. Tucker's postings is that he has made some valid points and also beat a few dead horses into the ground. So what? I think the same can be said about both sides in this argument. For example: haven't some of the Down With The Intellectuals posters *in essence* called those of us who prefer to read Jorge Luis Borges rather than Piers Anthony pretentious _ssholes? At least it's possible to read some of their comments as personal attacks if one's gonads are tied up in one's preference in reading material: "...art is boooring..." [read: you guys who prefer art to a quick read are boring and pretentious] See how you can get your dander up if you read personal attacks into everything? Turnabout is indeed fair play. >Where did I say that because I think DHALGREN is twaddle that there >isn't anything there? My dictionary defines 'twaddle' as follows: "...foolish, empty talk or writing; nonsense." To me, this implies there isn't anything there. I'm not a mind reader. If you were using a personal and idiosyncratic definition of 'twaddle' you should have warned me. >Where did I say that anyone who finds DHALGREN a challenging and >rewarding work is, *de facto*, an Art Snob. For that matter, where >do I rant and rave against Art at all? I didn't say this. Here's what you said: >>>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply >>>look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing >>>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see >>>why it's an exemplary work." It never occurs to the Art snobs >>>that someone could simply *not like a Work of Art for valid >>>reasons*. And here was my response and my reasons for making it: >> Pure pony diarrhea. You want us to say maybe, "OK, Jerry, you say >> Dhalgren is twaddle, so it must be twaddle; after all, you're NOT >> a critic?" I didn't see anywhere where you were saying Dhalgren is twaddle for reasons A., B., and C., so your claim of 'valid reasons' seemed unsupported to me. The 'Defenders of Art' and 'Art snobs' at least offer reasons WHY they think Dhalgren is worth reading. Please note that this sentence doesn't accuse you of labelling anyone who finds Dhalgren challenging/rewarding an Art Snob, or of ranting and raving against Art. Next two sentences: >> Saying you don't like it/couldn't get into it so there mustn't be >> anything there is hardly valid criticism. Fact is, a lot of >> people LIKE Dhalgren and find it a challenging and rewarding >> work. Again, what you seemed to be saying was precisely this: your valid reason for saying Dhalgren is 'twaddle' (note, people, the definition of 'twaddle': foolish empty talk or writing; nonsense) is that you don't like it for your own valid reasons. Again, please note that these sentences don't accuse you of labelling anyone who finds Dhalgren challenging/rewarding an Art Snob, or of ranting and raving against Art. And finally: >> If you have valid reasons for thinking that these people are >> all Art Snobs who like Dhalgren only because some mysterious >> conspiracy of Critics told them they should, please let us know >> about it ... This may in fact be what you're objecting to. Let's examine again the following sentence from your posting: >>>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply >>>look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing >>>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see >>>why it's an exemplary work." ... Now in my book that says to me that the people you call 'Defenders of Art' like Dhalgren but are either unwilling or unable to articulate their reasons for liking Dhalgren ('you OBVIOUSLY were missing something'). The implication seems to be that there is an academic consensus (i.e., 'conspiracy of Critics') about the value of certain works, and that the 'Defenders of Art' somehow brainwash themselves into liking certain works because it's the 'trendy' thing to do and the Critics tell them these works are worth reading ('If you set your mind to working'). Please note that these sentences don't accuse you of labelling anyone who finds Dhalgren challenging/rewarding an Art Snob; they do, however, accuse you of unfairly questioning certain persons' >... I don't consider myself either an Art Snob or an Anti-Art Snob. >And I'm willing to recognize that someone can see something in a >work of fiction that I can't. People see can all sorts of things >in anything. And if I'd seen statements like this in your posting I quite likely would not have posted my response. >The poster to whom I was responding, however, implied that by not >liking DHALGREN, I was obviously not trying hard enough to see its >virtues. Maybe I wasn't, but *maybe I was*. He shouldn't just >*assume* the former. I seem to recall the poster's comment as being more in the nature of a mild suggestion that you maybe shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what might be a piece of great writing, but it's been too long. And I failed to see from your postings what your reasons were for not liking it. Perhaps you can show us the hostility in the original poster's comment that aroused your wrath. >> ... Who's calling who a fool, Jerry? >I give up. Who? From your posting: >>>There is a problem with the concept of Art that no one's brought >>>up yet. The Art snobbery has always been such that no one can >>>dislike a Work of Art without being branded as an >>>anti-intellectual fool. You're accusing people of branding you a fool. Then you turn around and seem to be accusing Delany of being a fool for writing Dhalgren (read my comment above in the original context, Jerry). That's what my question meant. > But this brings up the point of whether anyone has the >"right" to call *anything* a piece of hack work. Can you truly say >that Piers Anthony puts less love and effort into writing any of >his books than Delany does into his? If so, why? Because he >publishes six times as many books per year? I'm not familiar with Piers Anthony's books except through reviews, so I can't say. First of all, let's make sure we agree on a definition of 'hack writer:' my dictionary defines a 'hack' as a person hired to do dull and routine writing. I think the sense it usually has in the SF community is a writer who grinds out novels more for the few hundred bucks they bring him/her than for a love of the craft or for the sake of the entertainment they bring to their readers. Agreed? As you may know, you can write to certain publishers who specialize in the romance genre and receive detailed cookbooks for their romance novels. When I was an undergraduate I knew of several grad students in the English department at the University of Iowa who supplemented their incomes by 'hacking' romance novels, westerns, crime novels, and (yes) SF under various pseudonyms. They did so for purely financial reasons and for the amusement it afforded them. I believe these people were probably 'hack writers' and that what they produced was indeed 'hack work.' So to answer your question, yes, one does have the "right" to call certain productions 'hack work.' As to the SF genre, go down to your local paperback bookstore and check out the SF section (B. Dalton or Waldenbooks are ideal for this). You'll notice a wide shelf with 'Star Trek,' 'V,' 'Star Wars,' 'Gor,' and 'Conan' clones. Do you really believe NONE of these clones were written purely for financial motives? -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Fri 6 Sep 85 12:38:28-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #350 > Those of you with long memories will recall that my first posting > on quality and fiction predated the whole Davis Tucker series that > seems to have upset so many people in this group, and was a > reaction to Steve Brust's claim that most good writing today is > issuing from the pens (word processors?) of SF writers. Since > then, I've seen great hostility on both sides of the fence. So > please don't mislead newcomers to this controversy by claiming > that the initial extremity was perpetrated by an "Art Snob." My > OWN first impressions were that the "Good-Read Snobs" started it; > c'mon, fight like a mensch. :-) That did seem to be the start of the 1985 season on this network. It didn't seem too offensive to me; it wasn't like the antipersonal and antigroup attacks that followed it. I don't know who started flaming offensively first; but I imagine that the person who did didn't think she or he was flaming offensively. For you, it may have been Steve Brust. And I'm trying to fight like a penguin. Bard ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Sep 85 0858-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #357 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 357 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & First SF Book, Miscellaneous - Star Wars (3 msgs) & Critics & Contacting Authors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Ellison on Dhalgren Date: 6 Sep 85 16:53:40 GMT Hoffman.ES@Xerox.ARPA writes: > For "Dhalgren" is a tragic failure. An unrelenting bore of a >literary exercise afflicted with elephantiasis, anemia of ideas and >malnutrition of plot and character development. It is a master >talent run amuck, suiciding endlessly for chapter after chapter of >turgid, impenetrable prose. I find it amusing that Harlan Ellison, the master of the bloated essay, is here accusing someone else of turgidity. Ah, well, perhaps it's a form of projection... ;-) > I must be honest: I gave up after 361 pages. I could not permit >myself to be gulled or bored any further. Well, I still have "Dhalgren" by my bed and still intend to finish it one of these days. I certainly hope I don't feel after 800+ pages that I've been "gulled" and "bored," but after all the nasty things I've been reading about this novel in this group lately I suppose I should prepare myself for the worst. >Realizing from the git-go that the opening lines of the novel would >tie into the closing lines, forming one of Laocoonian Moebius >gimmicks considered too hoary for use 30 years ago, the travels of >the nameless hero with one sandal did not seem sufficiently >enriching to permit my engaging in the reading of the book as a >career. Unfortunately, Mr. Ellison is right about this particular plot device. When I became suspicious about the fragmentary sentence that opens "Dhalgren" I snuck a peek at the end. Sure enough, it wraps around shamelessly. How embarrassing. Judging from other reviews I've read that were authored by Big Harlan, however, I think he has a tendency to overstate his case. Consider his review in the Magazine of F & SF of the repulsive little film "Gremlins" which he seems to see as one of the most totally evil things ever put on celluloid. Come on, Harlan. >Others who leaped on the first available copies of the novel, as I >did, who began reading it avidly, as I did, who began breathing >raggedly and faltered in the sprint, as I did, have assured me the >book goes nowhere, does nothing, says nothing, and is sunk to its >binding in mythological symbolism that is both flagrant and >embarrassing. Three hundred and sixty-one pages had delivered me >of the same conclusions. I find it hard to respect the opinions of a reviewer who can't force himself to stick through a bad movie, bad book or whatever and insists on telling me that even though he quit the task in disgust he found a few suckers who were willing to reassure him that his half-formed opinions are correct. And he won't even tell us who these "others" are. In fact, I find it hard to believe that someone would PAY him for half a review (but maybe he only got half a paycheck :-). And in reading this review I can't see where Mr. Ellison really says anything concrete about what's wrong with Dhalgren. As usual, he seems to be saying a lot because he uses a LOT of big words. But look closely: what exactly has he said about Dhalgren's failure other than that it IS a failure in his opinion? >I continue to be a strong fan of Delany's writing, both fiction and >criticism. I still "leap on the first available copy" of his every >new work and I've enjoyed much of it. And, yes, I still await the >"breakthrough novel" I think he can produce. I agree. My favorite Delany novel is still "Nova," which I intend rereading after I finish "Dhalgren." "Stars In My Pocket etc." was also a hell of a good read for me, and I'm looking forward to other half of the diptych (or is it dilogy?) -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 7 Sep 85 03:45:05 GMT The big problem I have with this discussion is that it is impossible to give ONE book that can even start to come close to defining SF. By trying to, you end up showing only a small and biased subset of the genre, and there is no guarantee at all that the person will like that part of the genre. If that happens, you turn them off to all the other works that they might otherwise have enjoyed because SF 'isn't for them'. I prefer to hand out a group of books, ask them to try them all and stop those that don't interest them. Once you get an idea what they like, it becomes much easier to turn them on to other similar books and slowly expand their horizons later... I agree that "Flowers for Algernon" ought to be on that list, I quibble with "Mote in God's Eye" (I prefer "Dragon's Egg" and "Ringworld" for hard but accessible SF), but those two books don't even start to show the possibilities of the genre. What about "Martian Chronicles"? What about "Tea with the Black Dragon"? The "Once and Future King"? You can't go wrong tossing a copy of "Adventures in Time and Space" at them, or "Shadow of the Torturer", or "Canticle for Liebowitz", or "Something Wicked This Way Comes", or "Time Enough for Love", or "Persistence of Vision", or "Footfall", or "The Time Machine", or "Callahan's Crosstime Saloon", or "The Deathbird Stories" or "Myth Adventures" for that matter. Every one of those really defines a different feel and flavor within the genre, and you can hate a good subset of that list and love the other subset just as strongly (I happen to love all of them, which is why they popped in off the top of my head. I could double the list with a little research). The point is, if you choose any one of those books as the introduction to SF and they hate it, they lose out on a wide variety of stuff they may well have liked. Give them a bunch of books and help them find the parts of this thing we call SF (and I am including fantasy in here at the moment, just because I feel like it) and avoid the parts they don't like. Hmm... maybe its time for another 'what are your favorite books' survey, or better yet, 'what are your favorite books in each subgenre' survey... Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ From: pegasus!naiman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ephrayim J. Naiman) Subject: Re: lightsabres an "inferior" weapon? Date: 6 Sep 85 19:30:51 GMT >How can the lightsabre be considered an inferior weapon to the >blaster? It can cut just about anything that isn't well shielded >(in which case it plays old Harry with the shield itself) except >for another lightsabre, it can be used with surgical precision, >and, in the hands of trained Jedi, it will shield against all kinds >of attack. Blasters, on the other hand, well get through lots of >things eventually, but require some persistance for tougher things >(like the doors in the imperial battle stations); as for their >surgical accuracy -- well, look at Han's "surgery" on the green >bounty hunter in the Mos Eisely cantina -- a little messy; and they >won't shield against anything, unless you are really good at >shooting your enemy's bolts out of the air as they're coming at >you. In fact, given the consensus we seem to have on the quality >of imperial armour, it seems lightsabres even do a better defensive >job than it. > >No, I think the Jedi choose their favourite weapon properly, and >not just to impress with what they could do against superior odds. >Alastair Milne I also feel that the Jedi chose their weapon properly. To further support the above mentioned theories, I thought of another one. Blasters work for long range with the saber only able to defend against it. This also leads to the saber being used more for defensive purposes rather than offensive. Ephrayim J. Naiman @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6259 Paths: [ihnp4, allegra, mtuxo, maxvax, cbosgd, lzmi]!pegasus!naiman ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (and Blasters) Date: 08 Sep 85 00:47:44 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne > On a related topic, are blasters projectile or energy weapons? . > . . were more like a explosive projectile. I also noticed what > seemed to be an ammo clip on one blaster. Personally, I think energy weapons; or at most, a combination. The energy probably induced the explosion in the target material. And what looked like an ammo clip could be a charge pack. But I really don't have anything to base this on: it's just my impression. > Since, I don't recall ever seeing anyone reload a blaster, . .. Don't forget, no single blaster user is followed consistently enough to let us see such details. Could you assume from never seeing a soldier reload in a WWII film, that their weapons didn't use projectiles. Usually, we are simply spared such minutiae unless it has an impact. (I am not actually changing my belief, but I thought this point could use answering). > Also do you remember Darth Vader deflecting a blaster bolt with > his hand in TESB? What kind of armor is he wearing? Also notice > that it didn't stop a light saber! Vader was wearing what he always wears: that black uniform from crown to toe, which contains his life support, possibly communications, and who knows what else. The shots that Han fired at him he intercepted either with his glove, or using the Force just slightly in front of the glove (I defy anybody to distinguish by looking at the scene). It would indeed be very interesting to know more about the properties of Vader's uniform. It may well be a type of armour in itself. Why do you say it didn't stop a lightsabre? It certainly seemed to to me. I grant that Vader got a lovely jolt out of it, but my impression from the sparking when the sabre made contact was of a force field "shorting" (or whatever the equivalent in a force field is). Had the sabre not been stopped, Vader's head and shoulders would have parted company from the rest of him. And I don't think we need imagine that it was Luke who stopped it. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349) Date: 08 Sep 85 01:12:53 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne > Remember - these are films we are dealing with! You are right > about the "menacing, disturbing appearances" being used for > psychological reasons, but these were created by George Lucas for > the benefit of the audience, not by the Empire for the troopers' > foes. Storm troopers probably fought insectoid creatures with > compound eyes as often as they fought mammalian sentients. In > fact, quite a few troopers were probably insectoid themselves. I agree with you about Lucas, but I don't think that excludes the Empire (Lucas' creation) from the same kind of thinking. Obviously, until and unless Lucas confirms or denies it, this is simply speculation with which I'm filling in the story; but it hangs together logically, and I don't see any reason within the story to reject it out of hand. About the species of the troopers: say rather that "there were possibly troopers who were themselves insectoid", and I will agree, though I confess it hadn't occurred to me before. Perhaps because, unlike the rebel personnel, all imperials whose forms were visible were human. I am, of course, not counting TESB's bounty hunters as imperials. Maybe high-level prejudice at work as hard as ever. For this reason, the word "probably" seems to me a bit too optimistic. Besides, I don't think any such consideration would keep the Empire from using a tactic that might help against enemy populations. > Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a > diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials > and Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy? > And as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this? I'm not really sure how true this is. There is at least two major, heroic non-humans: Chewie and Yoda. And the Rebel fleet personnel, particularly in Return/Jedi, is of many different species. Nor is there a lack of humans among the scum. I suspect any apparent preponderance is because of the number of settings on Tattoine, essentially a planetwide dive, and home to a wide variety of sentients. You may indeed have a point, but without a rather careful count of humans and non-humans, and their positions, it's hard to know. However, if you are looking for equity, justice, and dedication to the proposition that all intelligent species are created equal, look elsewhere than the Empire, that well known bastion of liberty and justice. Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC (All God's chillun got guns) Subject: re: anti-Art Snobbery Date: 6 Sep 85 16:22:14 GMT > I mentioned that the authors who've won the most combined Hugo and > Nebula awards were Harlan Ellison, Ursula LeGuin, Poul Anderson, > and Fritz Lieber. Now, without having exact numbers at my > fingertips, I'd guess that the division between Hugos and Nebulas > was about even. that means that the writers choosing for "best > literature" and the fans choosing for "favorite" tend to have > fairly similar tastes. > It might also be said to point out that fans can choose > the more literary authors (Ellison, LeGuin) just as easily as the > writers can and that the writers can choose the less literary > authors (Lieber, Anderson) just as easily as the fans. Ahem, er, well, not to really disagree with you, Jerry, but I actually find Lieber to be enjoyable on many depths, and since I got older and more sophisticated than I used to be (maybe)(well, it *was* an improvement for *me* :0) ), I began to enjoy more Lieber stories because of his literary qualities. But this is _just_ my humble opinion, and frankly, I can't come up with which Lieber book won both the Hugo and the Nebula, and it might well have been one with not much literary depth. I'm not flaming. > But this brings up the point of whether anyone has the > "right" to call *anything* a piece of hack work. Can you truly say > that Piers Anthony puts less love and effort into writing any of > his books than Delany does into his? If so, why? Because he > publishes six times as many books per year? Which reminds me of some recent discussions in net.startrek about whether anybody who abases themself enough to write a startrek novel could really have any talent. Lots of flaming, talent-assassination of Vonda McIntyre, pooh-poohing of Clarion, lists of talented and publishing authors. I bring it up because "hack" got bandied about in that discussion also. On a lighter side about "hack", from "TURBOTOME" by Polly Frost in a recent _New_Yorker_ (used without permission): " Congratulations on purchasing TURBOTOME--a software program designed especially for the Professional Writer (YOU)! TURBOTOME enables to bypass the rough draft, the first and second drafts, the galleys--even the test of time!--and lets you get on with the business of writing." L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Contacting writers Date: 3 Sep 85 13:53:43 GMT > From: Ron Cain > I believe the preferred method of contacting a writer is > through the publisher. Address the letter to the publisher and > request that it be forwarded to the author. Publishers seem to be > pretty reliable about getting the things through to the writer in > a short time. Indeed? I am just now (late August/early Septemeber) getting letters sent to Berkely and postmarked May. I'm told that most Publishers are worse. It may be that writing to the editor and explaining why the enclosed envelope should be forwarded quickly will help. It may not. -- SKZB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Sep 85 0932-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #358 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 358 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Gilliland & A Personal Demon & First SF (3 msgs) & 1985 Hugo Award Winners, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission & Critics & Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: SF-LOVERS digest entry From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1985 10:38 EDT While recommending some books for a neophyte SFLOVER to read , Jim Brunet wrote ; > Foundation Trilogy (but not #4, or Asimov's other recent crud) While I don't quibble with his recommendation to read the Foundation Trilogy. I am struck by the statement, 'Asimov's other recent crud'. If by other recent crud he means the Foundations Edge and the Robots of Dawn then I believe him to be off the mark. I thought the Robots of Dawn was a fitting sequel to the other Robot Novels and I look forward to the new one, which I've ordered. Concerning the Foundations Edge, I WAS a little upset with the loose ends at the end, ( can you say "Foundation 4"?), but believed to be many orders of magnitude better than the typical 'crud'. Why 'crud'? ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 8 Sep 1985 22:57:27-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: The Black Widowers > From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt) > I thought bibliography was your business. You flubbed up. At least > three of the 36 Black Widowers stories are sf in nature or topic > ("The Backward Look" comes to mind). In fact, a goodly percentage > of the BW stories were bought by IASFM and F&SF -- I'm almost > certain (I don't have the books handy) that F&SF + IASFM have > bought more BW stories than EQ or any other mystery magazine! (1) Actually, there are 52 stories in the series. Four book collections of 12 each (TALES OF THE BLACK WIDOWERS, MORE TALES..., CASEBOOK..., and BANQUETS...) plus four others. The most recent story, "Triple Devil", in the August 1985 ELLERY QUEEN'S MYSTERY MAGAZINE lists itself as #52. (2) Out of those 52, only five have appeared in the science fiction magazines --- three in F&SF, two in IASFM. Twelve appeared as original stories in the collections, and 33 appeared first in EQMM. The other two I haven't tracked down yet, but I know *for sure* that they haven't appeared in the sf magazines. If you consider 10% to be a "goodly" percentage, I won't argue, but the number of BW stories in EQMM outweighes by *far* the number in the sf magazines. (3) Of the five stories that appeared in the sf magazines, NOT A SINGLE ONE is science fiction. I don't care where they appeared --- they are not sf. The first, "Nothing Like Murder" (F&SF, 10/74) is nothing more than a tribute to J.R.R. Tolkien. Another one, "Friday the Thirteenth" (F&SF, 1/76), is a simple mathematical puzzle involving the superstition of Friday the 13th. The other three, "Earthset and Evening Star" (F&SF, 8/75), "The Missing Item" (IASFM, Win/77), and "The Backward Look" (IASFM, 9/79) are simple astronomical puzzles. In the first of the latter, the Widowers solve a crime involving someone who designed a lunar base set for an sf movie. In the second, they figure out a way to disprove the claim of a religious cult leader that he's traveled to Mars via astral projection. In the third, they help a writer come up with a motive for an sf/mystery story he wants to write, the problem at hand involving celestial mechanics. But in none of the stories appear any sf elements except as hypothetical scenarios for the puzzles the Widowers try to solve. None of the stories are set in a future time, or an alternate timeline, or space, nor do they involve technology not available to us at this time, nor do they contain any other elements that might be considered science fictional. They are nothing more than simple armchair detective stories. They are meta-sf at best; no more sf than Anthony Boucher's ROCKET TO THE MORGUE is, just because the characters in it are sf authors. If you can present a good argument for why they should be considered sf, I'll listen, but it'll have to be a *real* good one. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"I did not flub"> and <"Bibliography *is* my business"> ------------------------------ From: utastro!ethan@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Deus ex machina Date: 4 Sep 85 16:07:11 GMT A relevant (and amusing) variation in this can be found in a series of books by Gilliland (the titles all have Rosinante in them). A computer named Skakash (spelling?) invents a religion. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.UTEXAS.EDU Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ From: ptsfb!djl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe) Subject: A Personal Demon Date: 8 Sep 85 19:23:09 GMT _A__P_e_r_s_o_n_a_l__D_e_m_o_n by _D_a_v_i_d__B_i_s_c_h_o_f_f_, _R_i_c_h__B_r_o_w_n__a_n_d _L_i_n_d_a__R_i_c_h_a_r_d_s_o_n A college professor of medieval literature gets drunk at a party and conjures up a demon (actually a half-demon, half human hybrid). This demon, although she is 4,000 years old, looks like a 16 year old coed if you ignore her hoofs, horns, and tail. This book is actually a collection of 5 short stories that appeared in "Fantastic" in 1976 and 1977 under the pseudonym Michael F. X. Milhaus. These stories are old style Science-Fiction. Willis Baxter, the professor has a problem or two to solve in each story. He grows as he solves his problems. Anathae's, the demon's, magic is essential to the stories, but causes more problems than it solves. This is a good book and if you do not object to a bit of magic, I recommend it highly. Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell {ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl (415) 823-2408 ------------------------------ Subject: recommended first sf Date: 08 Sep 85 01:26:20 PDT (Sun) From: Alastair Milne I think my recommendation would be John Wyndham, particularly "Chocky", "The Midwich Cuckoos", or "The Chrysalids". Asimov and Clarke, of course, also come very quickly to mind. I might suggest Asimov's "I, Robot", and Clarke's "Earthlight". Though I'm very tempted to include Asimov's "Nightfall", I think that might better be left until after the first sf experience. (By the way, there is a masterly story called, I think, "A Walk in the Dark", about a man working on a moon or asteroid far out in the solar system, far away from the Sun, whose environment suit lights go out as he is working, and who has to walk back to his base in utter blackness. I think this one is by Clarke, but I'm not sure. Can anybody confirm or correct this? Thank you) Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: l5!laura@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 8 Sep 85 11:51:20 GMT I would opt for a good collection of short stories by a variety of authors. This is how I got my father (long time science fiction hater) hooked. There is much more variation between science fiction stories than, say, mysteries, and it is difficult to predict what sort of science fiction someone is going to like. My father turns out to be a great fantasy lover who can tolerate not-hard science fiction -- but how to know that? I ended up being lucky -- we were stuck on a 12 hour plane flight and he was out of reading material and so started on mine -- beginning with a collection of Fritz Leiber short stories. Since he loved that, I gave him the Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings, and The Eternal Champion and... If I had to select, though, I would get a Conklin collection. I have friends who love science fiction ala Hogan, Niven and Asimov who have never managed to see what I saw in Fafrd and the Grey Mouser. I would want a collection that spans both the fantasy and the hard sf end of the spectrum. Also, I think that short fiction is more technically brilliant than long fiction (on the whole! not in every instance!) because there is no room to screw up in short ficiton and recover -- either it is great or it flops. Lord of Light is one of my favourite books, but it took me three times to actually get down and read it -- the level of confusion hit a certain point before it all was put together and I wasn't patient enough until ... goodness! I finally read that on the same plane trip I mentioned before! Weird... Okay, question time. Of the people out there who have read both Lord of Light and Creatures of Light and Darkness -- how many of you liked the first one you read (whatever that was, unless you read them at the same time) better? So far every single person I know who has read both of them likes the first one they read better. I don't know why. Laura Creighton (note new address!) sun!l5!laura (that is ell-five, not fifteen) l5!laura@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon 9 Sep 85 09:57:52-EDT From: DINGMAN@RADC-TOPS20.ARPA Subject: First SF Book I don't think it is possible to suggest any single book for all persons. If you want to successfully introduce one to SF, find out what aspects of life, the universe, and everything the person is interested in, then present them with a book having that particular element. My wife, for example, thought SF/Fantasy was mindless garbage. She works as a public health nurse and has a great interest in social science, community structure & relations, etc. So about five years ago I gave her a copy of "Alas, Babylon", a SF-ish novel which does a fair job of describing the social changes that could occur following nuclear war. She loved it. Next I gave her "Dark December", similar story but more militaristic. Same result. Over the last few years she has expanded her envelope and "learned" what to expect from SF. She recently finished "And the Devil Will Drag You Under", "To Reign in Hell", and "The Forever War". All in the last two months. Similarily, a friend of hers (also a nurse) has become an avid fan. The first story I gave her was "Lord Foul's Bane", because I knew she was deeply interested in people who pull into themselves when faced with agony and despair (she had devoted her Master's thesis to terminally ill patients and how they respond to various pressures they can't control). Another success story. She continued on to devour most of my collection. I've introduced a few others, but selected these two examples because the two were SO against the thought of ever reading SF or Fantasy. I was also careful not to take it personally if someone didn't like a novel I gave them. Instead I would ask for their impressions (+ and -), and try again with something else. I know there are some good intrductory novels, and some of the suggestions I have seen I agree with, but I think it is more important to know both the person and the novel equally well rather than blindly taking someone's suggestion. --jd ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Hugo Winners 1985 Date: 8 Sep 85 03:11:42 GMT I haven't seen these posted yet, and just pulled them off a local SF oriented BBS. Without further ado, we have: Best Novel: Neuromancer, by William Gibson Best Novella: Press Enter, by John Varley Best Novelette: Bloodchild, by Octavia Butler Best Short Story: Crystal Spheres, by David Brin Best Non-Fiction: Wonder's Child, by Jack Williamson Best Artist: Mike Whelan Best Editor: Terry Carr Best Dramatic: 2010 Best Semi-pro 'zine: LOCUS Best Fanzine: File 770 Best Fan Writer: Dave Langford Best Fan Artist: Alexis Gilliland John Campbell Award: Lucius Shepard Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Matter Transmission Date: 8 Sep 85 02:12:05 GMT >From: Keith F. Lynch >[Once your genetic code is on disk...] > > Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could > you ever truly die? > > Sure. If all the copies get wiped out. Just as books, >music, and computer data can become irretrievably lost. The >more copies, and in the more places, the better. Keep one >in another solar system (it's called supernova insurance). I think that there is a misconception here. Your species remains reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do not. Genetic code only allows somebody to make something that looks sort of like you, not to remake you. Suppose you are an identical twin. That means your genetic code is not just preserved, it is up and walking around. Now you are killed by a rabid wombat. Are you not truly dead just because you have an identical twin walking around. About the best you can do with the genetic code is create a baby that will grow into something that will look no more like you looked than your identical twin did. Parents usually can tell the difference between identical twins due to environmental (vrs. hereditary) differences. Sorry to tell you this, but when you die, you die. It doesn't matter if you have your entire genetic code on file with the National Bureau of Standards. There is no coming back. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: baylor!peter@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: The Literature of Ideas Date: 3 Sep 85 18:00:39 GMT OK. You gave "Rendezvous with Rama" as one example, and "Glory Road" as another. I don't see that this is in any way a refutation of my thesis. Even throwing in LeGuin and a few other authors doesn't change things. Item: Leguin and the other authors you mentioned with her are outside the domain of SF. So, I think, are the other authors you mentioned. One must distinguish between SF and literature with an SF background. Stephen King writes plenty of the latter, but I don't believe he has provided one new theme. Item: Most of Clarke's writings, and now Bob Forward's, are pretty bad literature, but they succeed by fulfilling the other and I believe more important goal of being great SF. It is possible to write great SF by concentrating on the SF aspect. It is not possible to do so by concentrating on the literature. See, for example, the works of Stephen King. Item: 90% of SF is crud. So is 90% of everything else. How many romances are great works of literature? How many westerns? Item: Counterexamples to the assertion that SF is stylistically flat: The Demolished Man, Golem 100,... Peter da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!neuro1!{hyd-ptd,baylor,datafac}!peter MCI: PDASILVA; CIS: 70216,1076 ------------------------------ From: l5!laura@topaz.rutgers.edu (Laura Creighton) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349) Date: 8 Sep 85 12:02:56 GMT I am not sure that most of the non-humans were skum and villany. But suppose that the empire opresses non-humans in a way that it does not opress humans. (Or at least it doesn't opress humans in this fashion systemetically. If most non-humans are either enslaved or exterminated as a matter of policy, it is not surprising that there are a great many rebel non-humans, or that non-humans tend to no associate with humans (so they hang out at the Cantina Bar or Jabba's place). Laura Creighton (note new address!) sun!l5!laura (that is ell-five, not fifteen) l5!laura@lll-crg.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Sep 85 0954-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #359 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 359 Today's Topics: Books - Bramah & Saberhagen & Sucharitkul & Tolkien, Miscellaneous - Critics & Star Wars (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: KAI LUNG'S GOLDEN HOURS Date: 9 Sep 85 15:46:42 GMT There was some recent traffic about the subject book, and others in the series, by Ernest Bramah, to the effect that they are hard to find and that copies on the used market are expensive. I have a paperback edition of Cabell's JURGEN, on the back of which is a pointer to a paperback edition of KAI LUNG'S GOLDEN HOURS, which sold new then for $1.45. This is a trade-sized paperback, in "The Xanadu Library" series, which appear to be printed in a manner duplicating an older edition (that is, sort of a photographic reproduction of the old book's pages). I got my copy of Jurgen for a few cents on a discount table, and I recall that there was at least one copy of the Bramah book there also (this was quite a few years back, but it sticks in my memory for some reason). I wasn't interested in the Bramah book, so did not buy it. There is no date on my copy of Jurgen except the original 1919 copyright date, so I don't know what the vintage of this paperback is. The address on my copy for the publishers is: Crown Publishers, Inc. 419 Park Ave. South NY, NY 10016 (but the book shows no zip code, just zone 16) Maybe this will help you find a cheaper reading copy. Good luck! Will Martin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 85 12:23 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: The Books of Swords I am surprised that no one has brought these books up before. Since we have been talking about magic and technology, these handle the two quite well. The books I refer to are Fred Saberhagen's Book of Swords (the 1st, 2nd & 3rd). You may remember Fred for his Berserker stories, but he is no slouch at the epic fantasy either. The technology is in the form of "Old World" artifacts, such as flashlights and other items. However, magic and Gods are present, as are the twelve magic swords around which the story revolves. As every epic must have a poem, this one is no exception. I include it here as a teaser. It doesn't spoil, since it is recited in parts throughout the story. I found these books so enjoyable that I read the 2nd and 3rd in one sitting each. Good Stuff! Jon Pugh The Twelve Swords of the Gods Who holds Coinspinner knows good odds Whichever move he make But the Sword of Chance, to please the gods, Slips from him like a snake. The Sword of Justice balances the pans Of right and wrong, and foul and fair. Eye for an eye, Doomgiver scans The fate of all folk everywhere. Dragonslicer, Dragonslicer, how d'you slay? Reaching for the heart in behind the scales. Dragonslicer, Dragonslicer, where do you stay? In the belly of the giant that my blade impales. Farslayer howls across the world For thy heart, for thy heart, who hast wronged me! Vengeance is his who casts the blade Yet he will in the end no triumph see. Whose flesh the Sword of Mercy hurts has drawn no breath, Whose soul it heals has wandered in the night, Has paid the summing of all debts in death Has turned to see returning light. The Mindsword spun in the dawn's gray light And men and demons knelt down before. The Mindsword flashed in the midday bright Gods joined the dance, and the march to war. It spun in the twilight dim as well And gods and men marched off to hell. I shatter Swords and splinter spears; None stands to Shieldbreaker. My point's the fount of orphan's tears My edge the widowmaker. The Sword of Stealth is given to One lowly and despised. Sightblinder's gifts; his eyes are keen His nature is disguised. The Tyrant's Blade no blood hath spilled But doth the spirit carve Soulcutter hath no body killed But many left to starve. The Sword of Siege struck a hammer's blow With a crash, and a smash, and a tumbled wall. Stonecutter laid a castle low With a groan, and a roar, and a tower's fall. Long roads the Sword of Fury makes Hard walls it builds around the soft The fighter who Townsaver takes Can bid farewell to home and croft. Who holds Wayfinder finds good roads Its master's step is brisk. The Sword of Wisdom lightens loads But adds unto their risk. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: VAMPIRE JUNCTION by S. P. Somtow (Sucharitkul) Date: 9 Sep 85 21:01:11 GMT > VAMPIRE JUNCTION by S. P. Somtow (Somtow Sucharitkul) > A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper > > But the extent to which Somtow tries to put all of Jungian > psychology in this novel smothers the originality that it would > otherwise display. Interesting. It seems clear that you know a great deal more about Jungian psychology than I. I had not trouble enjoying the novel as a straightforward story, with notes to myself to re-read it to see what else was in it. It may be that, coming from ignorance, the books works better than you, who have some understanding of its depths, might think. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: lzwi!nrh@topaz.rutgers.edu (N.R.HASLOCK) Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names Date: 9 Sep 85 17:48:30 GMT It seems to me that back when I was living in England and more hyped on Tolkien than I am now, that there was frequent comments about his writing technique. He was a friend of C.S.Lewis and would meet regularly together with some other literary friends. He would take sections of his current work and read them to the group who would then criticise. Given the probaility that all of the group had had 'classical' educations ( i.e. learnt greek from the works of the poets ) is it any wonder that the stories work well when spoken. Given that Tolkien's field of expertise was early english literature which is heavily into alliteration, is it surprising that his style is also alliterative. Nigel {ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Critics and art Date: 9 Sep 85 21:30:58 GMT > From: Peter Reiher > My point, before and now, is that one must beware of those who > claim that readability is a *necessary* criterion for artistic > greatness. Essentially, what I'm saying is this: I read a book, > work hard at it because it isn't an easy book to read, get blown > away by it, and tell people that it's a great book. They come > back and say, "It isn't easy, so you're wrong." Moreover, they > refuse to consider the possibility that expending more effort > might convince them that there is something to my point of view. > I can accept that some people do not want to spend effort on > reading, that they read to relax and hear a good story, but I do > object to having them then tell me that their criteria for art are > better than mine, and that is precisely what some people have been > saying. I read John Crowley's LITTLE, BIG, worked hard at it because it wasn't an easy book to read, and was blown away by it. I have recommended it to many people. I am very glad I read it. It was beautifully crafted, and said things that I think are important to say, and looked into things that deserved looking into. It was not a great book, however; it was too dificult to read to be a great book. I am, in fact, argueing that my criteria for art are better than yours. I am prepared to be proved wrong. I entered the argument because others were putting forward critera for art that I feel to be invalid. I have never objected to be told that my criteria are inferior or incorrect, so long as I can disagree. I am remaining in the argument because I am enjoying it. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349) Date: 9 Sep 85 17:10:48 GMT >Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a >diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials and >Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy? And >as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this? >-- Josh Susser A think that what we are dealing with here is a HUMAN empire. What non-humans we see on the imperial side are more in the nature of auxiliaries rather than full imperial citizens. The rebel forces consisted of human colonists and non-humans that are chaffing under the restrictions of the empire. Also remember in 'Return of the Jedi' there were many non-humans in the rebel forces. Joel Upchurch ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 1985 9:01:16 EDT (Tuesday) From: Ray Chen (MS W420) Subject: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons) Personally, I the stormtrooper armor makes a fair amount of sense once you consider what stormtroopers might have been meant to do. I think that stormtroopers are combination ship, space station, and garrison troops. Stormtroopers seem suited (if you'll pardon the pun) for corridor fighting and storming space ships, space stations, or fortresses is basically corridor fighting. Sure, the armor can't stop a direct hit from a high-powered hand blaster or blaster rifle, but it'll help a lot in space-oriented and garrison/defensive fighting. The armor will stop things like small metal shards or light splashes of molten metal which result when a blaster bolt hits two feet from your head. It should stop fists and your standard battle cutlery (although I wonder how it's do against a claymore). I think it'd also stop deflections off walls and things. In addition, the communications facilities in the helmet provide everybody with the means to talk to each other without having to scream over the sound of the fighting. Look at the weapons. Blasters are good medium-distance weapons. As someone already indicated, though, a lightsabre is probably better than a blaster in hand-to-hand combat. The standard, stormtrooper weapons seems to be geared towards standing off at 20 feet or so, and shooting at each other. This makes a lot of sense, though, because in corridor fighting, facing blasters, unless you're a Jedi knight (or insanely lucky), hand-to-hand fighting isn't possible because in order to get within range, you've got to charge down 20 feet of straight corridor with no cover against an enemy who has blasters. I think you can also see why Imperial stormtroopers don't carry grenades. Detonating grenades on board a ship can be a very dangerous proposition for all concerned. The main disadvantage of the armor, as far as I can see, is that the silly thing is white, a little clumsy, and restricts your vision. The color doesn't really matter in close-corridor fighting and white is actually a pretty good color under those circumstances anyway as a lot of walls will tend to be painted a light color. If you're not planning on running the 100m dash, doing acrobatics, or getting into hand-to-hand combat, you can live with being a little clumsy. Restricted vision (e.g. no peripheral vision) doesn't really matter in corridors either. All in all, I think the armor makes for a good set of trade-offs. I think the idea of stormtroopers as indoor/corridor fighters makes a lot of sense. A high tech, space-faring empire needs indoor fighters. Ground and airborne assault troops will still have their place, but when the chips are down and the enemy is standing firm in a city, you send in the stormtroopers to dig them out house by house. This also explains why stormtroopers are so feared. They, by temperment and training, are so mean (and stupid, probably) that they'll stand off at 20 feet in close quarters and trade blaster shots until somebody backs down. Most infantry hate indoor assaults as the terrain gives the defender a huge advantage. Stormtroopers, though, are the exception. Now, I know somebody's going to ask, "Well, why are there so many stormtroopers? It seems like all we see are stormtroopers." Answer: Navy ships-of-the-line carry more stormtroopers than any other type of infantry. Since the situations we've seen are situations where the Navy comes sailing in with Destroyers to do something, of course, most of the troops you'll see should be stormtroopers. So, enough already about stormtrooper armor. I think the armor makes a lot of sense once you consider exactly what kind of fighing stormtroopers might be geared to do. Ray Chen chen@mitre-gw ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 85 17:53 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Alien Lowlife in Star Wars >Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a >diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials and >Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy? And >as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this? 'As a story teller' the answer is easy: There seems to be a common Hollywood myth (that I find difficult to buy) that since Hollywood audiences consist of human beings (primarily, at least,) Hollywood movies should consist primarily of human beings. While there may be some truth to the fact that the normal human has more difficulty sympathizing with the plight of a giant sentient slug than with Harrison Ford, there would certainly seem to have been enough examples (from Chewbacca and the Ewoks to the bald armadillo in The Last Starfighter) in recent years to contradict that Hollywood mandate. And remember, they airbrushed Spock's ears in the first Star Trek posters, too. Within the 'historical' context that Lucas establishes in the films, I would imagine that the predominance of humans could be easily explained by resort to any of a number of rationals which lump together to form what is a disturbing undercurrent running through much of the science fiction that I have seen and read. That is, that in some way, humans are 'special.' In Lucas' universe, it may be that humans did the colonizing first, are more vigorous and versatile, are more driven to 'spread out', contain some intellectual/psychological mental quirk which makes them 'superior', or whatever, to end up (apparently) in control of things. In other scifi sources, the same tricks apply. Even in stories where humanity is inferior, it still seems to come out as different and valuable. There is always something that seems to set us apart. Maybe it is the fact that we die, or have no form of universal consciousness, or that we make war on ourselves (that seems to be a well-used one) or that we have a kind of hybrid vigour, etc. Niven says it's limits, Saberhagen says its warmongering, (and I can't think of any more examples amidst the flames here), etc. Now all this makes for interesting reading, and it's bound to be good for our racial self-image, and it may well be (as I would like to believe in my more rational moments) that EVERY sentient species is distinctive enough to warrant having novels written about it, but just once (deep breath,) I'd like to see a story written where man gets his come-uppance-- where an alien race finds us and is bored because we're just like everybody else. How would THAT affect our collective psyches, I ask you??!!?? Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ? (Actually, come to think of it, the one reason I liked Rondevouz with Rama was that it was close to this kind of story. Earth was immensely excited about the first contact with a race that had come all that way just to seek out man, and was left standing with it's hand out as the ship sped off towards more interesting climes.) I'm sure I wouldn't like a steady diet of these stories, but one would sure feed my cynicism mightily. Skeptically yours, Chris Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Sep 85 1352-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #360 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 13 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 360 Today's Topics: Books - Heroic Fantasy & Reviews (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Bars & Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Essays on fantasy backgrounds Date: 9 Sep 85 17:09:03 GMT There was a recent reference to the essay "On Thud and Blunder", in Poul Anderson's collection, FANTASY (p. 159, Pinnacle/Tor Books, 1981). This is factual info on the environment behind a believeable fantasy world and on fighting techniques. Those who are interested in or enjoyed this should also read a set of essays (called "commentaries") in HEROIC FANTASY, ed. by Gerald W. Page and Hank Reinhardt (DAW Books, 1979). The first of these credits Hank Reinhardt as the author, but the others make no mention of the authorship, implying that Reinhardt wrote all of them. They are: "Commentary of Swords and Swordplay" (p.81) "Commentary on Armor" (p. 134) "Third Commentary on Courage and Heroism" (p.206) (The titles are as I printed them; don't know why the last has the word "Third" in it, when the others were not designated as "First" or "Second".) If you liked Anderson's essay, you'll like these. Regards, Will ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Catching up on the backlist Date: 9 Sep 85 01:46:24 GMT For some reason, I finally seem to be catching up on my backlist of things I've bought without quite finding the time to read. Ratings: ***** - a classic work (Shadow of the Torturer) **** - a Must Buy (Peace War) *** - an average work, you may or may not like it (Ringworld) ** - doesn't live up to its expectations (Trumps of Doom) * - avoid at all costs (Bearing an Hourglass) The Peace War by Vernor Vinge (Baen Books, $3.50). Rating: ****+ This book lost to Neuromancer for the 1985 Hugo, which means that Neuromancer must be one heck of a book. The 'Peace Authority' has ended all war with accidently discovered technology - the ability to surround anything with a 'bobble,' an impervious shield. They have also succeeded in setting up a new government that is at least as oppressive and bloodthirsty as the old governments it replaced (isn't that always the case?) The story is that of the fight by the Tinkers, a group of high tech types, who are trying to get rid of the Peace Authority. This book works well at a number of levels. It is a strong hard-SF book with good characters, a quickly moving and interesting plot, and enough complexity to keep you around to the end. It also works as a latter day fairy tail, a pro-hacker fantasy where the evil king is overturned by the altruistic knighthood of techologists (the knighthood, realistically enough, also has its black knights, especially in the bioscience industry). With all the anti-technology and anti-hacker stuff in the medias, I found the Peace War to be a breath of fresh air. Vinge doesn't even attempt to say that technology is wonderful -- the premise of the book is the mis-application of technology -- but he does make a good case that technology is simply as good or bad as the applications. Well worth reading, go out and get it. --- (spoiler warning!) Trumps of Doom, by Roger Zelazny (SFBook Club) Rating: ** Zelazny has come out with a new Amber book, the first in a new series revolving around Corwin's son Merlin. It opens with someone trying to kill Merlin, and it closes with someone imprisoning Merlin so that someone can rescue him in the next book. Corwin is either dead or crazy and hiding in shadows, and never makes an appearance. The book has a lot of problems. The biggest problem is that there isn't a single character in the book that you can like. All of the Amberites come across as petty and small except Random, the new ruler (in a walk-on part lasting just long enough to remind you he's there). Merlin, well, the only word for Merlin is dense. Take, for example, the opening sequence. Someone is trying to kill Merlin. In fact, someone has tried to kill Merlin each April 30th for the last seven years, and Merlin is beginning to suspect that someone doesn't like him. He fumbles around, a close friend is killed, people pop in, ask silly questions, take shots at him, and disappear again. Not quick on the uptake. As a matter of fact, Zelazny tries very hard to convince the reader that Merlin doesn't know about Amber and his history. He can walk Shadow and has rather outrageous physical power, but for the first half of the book he is just a normal college kid (well, mostly). Halfway through the book, though, he goes and visits his father's neighbor, Bill, the family lawyer (literally -- Random has used Bill for various pieces of legal work over the years). They sit and talk about Amber at great length. It is almost as if Zelazny started out with Merlin not knowing his background and finding out he couldn't get through the plot that way. Rather than go back and rewrite, he just shifted gears, and all of a sudden we have someone who knew all about the history of Amber, who had had repeated attempts on his life, and didn't even wonder if they might have something to do with each other (I mean, really. With the loving history of the Amber family, isn't it conceivable that he might have ONCE thought that it was an amberite after him? nahhhhhhhh). If Zelazny had even once mentioned that Merlin knew about Amber, the entire first half of the book becomes non-sensical. Instead, he plays with mirrors and fools the reader, and I, for one, came out feeling ripped off. Attached to this farce is his good college chum Luke. Amberites have much better physical prowess than regular earthlings, yet when Merlin runs into one person at the same college (the same place that someone is trying to kill him, remember?) he doesn't think much about it. In fact, he once explains it away as thinking that Luke was simply in very good shape. Right. This works only as long as you believe that Merlin doesn't know about Amber. Once you shatter that fantasy and realize that he knew about the physical superiority of Amberites and their bloody history, the only reason left that keeps Merlin from putting 1+1+1 (Amber history + Luke's physical strength + someone trying to kill him) and realizing that (1) Luke is from amber and (2) Luke is either trying to kill him or watching him for the person who is (who is, of course, from Amber). All of which turns out to be true. Merlin is either too stupid to care about, or Zelazny is severely underestimating (and insulting) the intelligence of the readers. The book ends, of course, in a cliffhanger. As poorly written and plotted as this book is, it isn't even a good cliffhanger. There is no climax, it is as though Zelazny came to the end of chapter, realized that he had hit is word count, and turned it in. "Stay tuned for part TWO of this continuing saga...." and all that. Merlin is a very uninteresting failure of a character, and this book is a much worse book than Zelazny is capable of. The only reason to recommend it at all is that it is an Amber book, and you'll have to read it someday to continue the series. I hope Zelazny is smart enough to can Merlin and bring back Corwin, or at least add some common sense next time. Until then, try to wait until the paperback comes out. Better yet, borrow it from a friend. Three or four people on a single book would probably break out just about even -- we cheat Zelazny of some royalties, just like he cheated us with his sloppy writing. Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: More from the backlist Date: 9 Sep 85 02:51:09 GMT A few more titles from the backlist... The Book of Kells by R.A.MacAvoy (Bantam Spectra, $3.50) Rating: ** Dying of the Light, by George R.R. Martin (Simon and Schuster) Rating: **** Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (SFBook Club) Rating: Ratings: ***** - a classic work (Shadow of the Torturer) **** - a Must Buy (Peace War) *** - an average work, you may or may not like it (Ringworld) ** - doesn't live up to its expectations (Trumps of Doom) * - avoid at all costs (Bearing an Hourglass) The Book of Kells by R.A.MacAvoy (Bantam Spectra, $3.50) Rating: ** The latest book by Ms. MacAvoy is a fairly well written but empty story of ancient Ireland and the Celts. Even a bad book by MacAvoy has its own charms, but this book isn't a "Tea with the Black Dragon" or "Damiano". I found that halfway through the book I simply didn't care about anything that was happening, and that is a good reason to just put the book down, which I did. Others will probably like it much more -- if you like MacAvoy or that flavor of historical fantasy, try it and see, but be prepared to be disappointed. Dying of the Light, by George R.R. Martin (Simon and Schuster) Rating: **** I recently found a hardback book of this on the local remainders, and snapped it up since it is more or less out of print now. Martin has come up with a strong book (the best of his work since "A Song for Lya" about the goings on around a dying party world called Worlorn. It was a pleasure to read it originally when a friend lent me his copy, it was more of a pleasure to re-read it again. Worlorn was put together as an interplanetary exposition where the planets of the galaxy could show off its finery. As the rogue is leaving the star system, the exposition is closed and the planet is again dying. With this backdrop Martin explores both society and marriage while tossing off a very well done travelogue. Dirk T'larien comes to Worlorn following a call from an old lover, Gwen. Gwen is now bound to a nobleman from the planet of High Kavalaan, where honor is bound by love and protected by violence. The nobleman is there in an attempt to protect some of the stragglers -- humans who didn't leave when the planet closed -- from another Kavalaan clan that has come here for the sport of hunting these 'mockmen.' An outsider, Dirk steps on toes through the ignorance of the uninformed in a society where ignorance is not permitted, and sets off a very complex series of events that culminate in world spanning chases and confrontations with both the people and with the societies they represent. Martin is really taking a look at the darker sides of our own society, and the result is both unnerving and compelling. This book ought to make you think; it is also quite entertaining as well, but is definitely not a light read. If you can find a copy, by all means grab it. Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (SFBook Club) Rating: I'm specifically NOT rating this book (that is not a rating of zero, but no rating, a small but semantically important difference). This is another book that I stopped halfway through, and while the book is well written, I simply found myself unable to tolerate some of the strong and rather graphic concepts it was dealing with. On the planet of Geta, in times of famine the weak feed the strong. Literally. The human's (evidently a semi-failed colony or some such) has evolved into a highly ritualized cannabalistic society because of the poisonous content of the world around them. Everything on Geta is deadly to them (some quicker than others) and the only food that is safely eaten is themselves. The culture evolved is violent, highly structured, and has a strong element of self-mutilation (ornamental and religious tatooing taken to an extreme) as well as the cannibalization. The book is rather graphic, quite intense, and doesn't pull its punches. If you can handle the subject matter, I think you're in for a treat, but this book is definitely not for the weak of heart or full of stomach. Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 85 12:38 PDT From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Tall tales in Bars Sparked mainly by the discussion of tall tales in bars stories earlier this summer, I have spent some recent time reading Callahan's stories, Draco Tavern stories, and others. They have prompted me to ask the following question (and since you all happen to be sitting out there listening so nicely, I thought I'd ask it of YOU!!-- who knows, maybe you've got an answer.) What makes us think that any other species out there would have any interest at all in a bar? Granted, they seem to be fairly universal earth customs, but why would an alien species have a desire to get inebriated? Or even to hold the sort of social concourse that a tavern provides? When you stand back and look at these quaint earth customs (at least when I stand back and look at them,) they seem to be kind of weird. But then, that's one of the problems with being isolated on some backwater planet in the boondocks of the galaxy-- since your species is the only one you've got to compare you to, everything looks weird-- or everything looks normal. Take your pick. So any way, what do you all think? Chris Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 85 13:15:02 PDT (Monday) From: Josh Susser Subject: Lightsabers and Blasters >From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) >On a related topic, are blasters projectile or energy weapons? I >had assumed that they were energy weapons, but I noticed that when >I was watching 'The Empire Strikes Back' on tape a couple of nights >ago, that the results were more like a explosive projectile. I >also noticed what seemed to be an ammo clip on one blaster. > >Since, I don't recall ever seeing anyone reload a blaster, I would >have to postulate a very small projectile, like a small needle, so >that each blaster could fire a hundred rounds or more without >reloading. It would also have an extremely high muzzle velocity, >since KE = 1/2MV**2. I wondered about this back when I first saw "Star Wars/A New Hope" way back when. Blasters definitely exhibit properties one would ascribe to energy weapons, the ricochet off the magnetically sealed walls of the trash compactor being a good example. But blaster bolts travel at very low velocities, something one wouldn't expect from an energy weapon. Then there was the matter of lightsabers and how they worked - lightsabers were apparently similar in nature to blaster bolts, but a stationary effect. Using these data I formulated a hypothesis to explain the behavior of these weapons. --- My Hypothesis --- Blasters are energy projectile weapons. A blaster bolt is identical to the blade of a lightsaber. Both bolts and blades are composed of coherent light (a laser), or plasma, or maybe lasing plasma, that is contained by a magnetic jacket. This is a very convenient explanation of the physics behind these weapons, as it accounts for much of the un-laserlike behavior of blasters. Laser pulses don't spontaneously degenerate into explosions at an arbitrary range, but putting a certain amount of energy into the magnetic jacket could cause it to decompose near its target range. Lightsabers blades are solid to one another, and to blaster bolts. This can be explained by interference of the magnetic jackets. This explanation also accounts for defensive shields - a strong magnetic field could possibly deflect a magnetically jacketed bolt. Oh well, I suppose one can explain anything with fictional science. Anyone with a knack for hardware care to test my hypotheses for me? If so, I'd like a *blue* lightsaber, please. Josh Susser ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Sep 85 1422-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #361 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 13 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 361 Today's Topics: Books - Clarke & Delany & Kingsbury & First SF, Miscellaneous - Critics & Time Travel & Star Wars & Scientology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cvl!eli@topaz.rutgers.edu (Eli Liang) Subject: Re: recommended first sf Date: 10 Sep 85 18:13:33 GMT > From: Alastair Milne > (By the way, there is a masterly story called, I think, "A Walk in > the Dark", about a man working on a moon or asteroid far out in > the solar system, far away from the Sun, whose environment suit > lights go out as he is working, and who has to walk back to his > base in utter blackness. I think this one is by Clarke, but I'm > not sure. Can anybody confirm or correct this? Thank you) Yes, that's the title, I just read it last night. Real neat story. It's in a collection of stories by Clarke called ``Reach for Tomorrow''. I sat down with the intention of just reading one or two stories from it, but ended up reading the whole thing... *sigh* ...when will I learn? Just as I was finishing the story, there was this unmistakable `clicking' sound.... -eric messick University of Maryland Computer Vision Lab, (301) 454-4526 ARPA: liang@cvl, liang@lemuria, eli@mit-mc, eli@mit-prep CSNET: liang@cvl UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!cvl!liang ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Ellison on Dhalgren Date: 9 Sep 85 14:51:59 GMT In defense of the wrap-around beginning and ending of Dhalgren (or at least in expansion of same): The book begins with: to wound the autumnal city. The book ends with: I have come to We therefore have a (possibly interesting) interpretational question. Is the complete sentence I have come to wound the autumnal city. or I have "come to" to wound the autumnal city. If you merge the two to's, you have a straight declaration of destructive intent. If you do not merge them, the narrator has "come to", woken out of unconsciousness, and the meaning can be entirely different. People who dislike Dhalgren probably don't care, and I can appreciate their position. For myself, it's just one more point to show that Delany is not quite a simplistic as appears at first glance. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Courtship Rite Date: 9 Sep 85 15:54:02 GMT From Chuq's review of Courtship Rite, I can only conclude that he has a much weaker stomach than mine. I had no problem with the material at all (then again, I've read a good deal about ritual scarring practices on earth, so I wasn't taken aback by the descriptions in the book). The basis of the book is interesting biologically. We are obviously looking at a colony that has descended from pacifists who fled the wars of earth. They have no meat animals; maybe the original colonists didn't bring any, maybe they all died. They have eight types of plants brought from earth (wheat, potatoes, etc.). These are the only sources of food, because the indigenous forms of life are incompatible with earth life. (You can't eat local plants because they're poisonous; local insect life can't eat your crops, because the insects die almost immediately.) The founding colonists were very big on biological technology, and this is the only type of technology that was preserved over the years. The current inhabitants can splice genes with their eyes closed, but you're halfway through the book before the bicycle is invented. Because of the biological emphasis of the book, the tribes of the planet are very conscious of the evolutionary process. Tribes tend to specialize in one or two areas of activity, then breed their members for superiority in those areas. They do this by giving everyone a rating on an "evolutionary value" scale, based on intelligence, physical constitution, presence of desirable traits, etc. Everyone wants to mate with someone at the same level on this scale, or higher. This ensures true evolutionary progress. For example, the tribe that has decided to specialize in inter-city travel (escorting travellers, running with messages, etc.) have incredible endurance, while the tribe that specializes in producing courtesans have incredible beauty, agility, and so on. Cannibalism is central to the society, since there is no other source of meat. It is important to stress, however, that the cannibalism is restricted to the ritual eating of those who have died for some other reason. In times of famine, those with low evolutionary potential (and criminals) are "culled" from the population, not really for the meat (although they are eaten) but because of the strong evolutionary views of the people: when resources are scarce, you do not squander them on those who will not advance the future of the species. There is never any suggestion that they kill specifically to produce meat; indeed, they look upon meat as the stuff that you're forced to eat when you fall on hard times. The ritual scarring in the book is highly reminiscent of tribal practices in Africa. Indeed, my wife is annoyed that the illustration on the front of the book shows a white woman, because white skin does not scar as attractively as black skin does (yes, some African tribes have long histories of choosing mates on the attractiveness of their scars, so these same tribes have gradually come to have skin that scars beautifully). There are many good reference books on ritual scarring, and I have seen colour photos of quite expansive scar drawings. As a book, Courtship Rite is a very interesting read, even though it falls flat towards the end. The problem is that it is two different stories tied together. The original story (published in Analog, I believe) was the story of a group marriage (two women, three men) who are ordered to marry a sixth woman. Why? Because this particular tribe values the ability to win friends, and the woman is a charismatic preacher who has won a large following. Her abilities will increase the tribe's chances for survival. However, the group in question want to marry someone else instead. To avoid marrying the preacher, they invoke a rule that says they're allowed to test someone's overall evolutionary potential before marriage. The particular testing rite they choose is one that has a good chance of killing the preacher before it's over. All well and good. But the author has superimposed another story on top of the courtship rite, a story about the discovery of war after centuries of pacifism and whether a pair of tribes will go to war or avoid it. This second story is the more powerful of the two and the author hasn't managed to integrate it very well with the other. The war problem is resolved 100 pages from the end of the book...then we are returned to the courtship, which is an anticlimax. I would have been much happier if the author had managed to tie off the two stories simultaneously, or at least 70 pages closer together. Rate it ***1/2 for the story premise, and **1/2 for the story itself. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 85 10:50:30 edt From: Carol Morrison Subject: SF with which to tempt new readers No, not The Mote In God's Eye! That's so boring I ground to a halt halfway through reading it and never even WANTED to pick it up again. *I'll* say Niven's going through a dry period. Niven mixed with Jerry Pournelle is like tacos laced with dry oatmeal. I even think The Left Hand of Darkness is risky business. I loved it, but know people who found it obscure or boring. I'd find out the prospective reader's taste in other literature and try to match to it. If that weren't possible, I'd offer a "Best SF of 198X". When in doubt, try a smorgasbord. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: critics (Long!!) Date: 9 Sep 85 22:10:37 GMT > Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it > can't be great art? And if you have to work to understand it, > ditto? No and yes. > You might argue (as many did when Joyce, Eliot, and Pound first > published) that it's perverse and snobbish to pour a great talent > into the production of work that's more or less opaque to the > average *contemporary* reader. Such work may show a certain lack > of social or political concern on the part of the artist, but I > don't see why that makes it bad art. There is a clear and present danger that we will soon find ourselves attempting to define "art." I would enjoy the effort, but I enjoy futile persuits. However, a work that is opaque to the average contemporary reader is never, in my opinion, great art. It is fine if the reader has to work at it; it is flawed if the reader has insufficant reason to want to. > Anyway, what about older books? I don't understand. What about them? > How much fun is Hamlet the first time around? Quite a bit, in my opinion. Shakespeare can be enjoyed on any number of levels. One can also learn vast amounts from him. But can always be enjoyed, even the first time one sees one of his plays, or even reads one (if you happen to be someone who can read a play). >>One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how >>long is the author remembered? > > By whom? Homer's work is a hell of a lot of fun once you get into > it. So are the Canterbury Tales; so's a lot of Shakespeare, for > that matter. How much of this stuff would have survived at all if > it hadn't been preserved and taught in the schools? We have no disagreement here. All of the things you have just mentioned are things that I consider to be great art. Fun, aren't they? >>what writer who is remembered and, more, STILL READ after a >>hundred years failed to write stories or books that were fun to >>read? > > All these people wrote works that were fun to read, but they > didn't STAY fun to read when their languages ceased to be current. Here we just disagree. I can't think of anything else to say. >>But the point about critics is this: I believe that good writing >>must be accessable. But "accessable" varies from person to >>person. > > I suppose I'm saying that in order to have good writers, you have > to have good writers -- not hard writers or easy ones, just good > ones. I think if you insist that a work be easy reading and fun > (RIGHT AWAY!), you may not be giving it a chance. I don't "insist" on that, and I do, in fact, read authors who force me to work and are not enjoyable. These people are craftsmen in their own way. But I do not call them artists. What they produce just isn't good enough. And this distinction--what is and is not art--actually matters to me, for what reasons I'm not sure. I am sure of opinions on what makes for great art-- just as I am sure that these opinions will change, perhaps into their opposite, as I continue to read and think about what I've read. > One of the reasons I enjoy reading the newsgroups is that, just as > in more formal publications, people write well here. I just can't > believe such good writing has developed without at least some > study of our language and literature. I think I know what the > work of people who read only "fun stuff" looks like: as an editor, > I'm often called on to reorganize their writing for publication. > To my knowledge [!!!] I've never seen clear, fluent, interesting > writing from someone whose first criterion for choosing a book was > that it be accessible. If that's what I'm looking at now, well, > it's never too late to learn. If there is an implication here that I write well, thank you. You, too. The points you raise are well taken. But I continue to disagree. I'm glad I read Moby Dick. There was a lot to it. But it failed as art. Huckleberry Finn did not. There was as much going on underneath, but Twain didn't leave the roof off his house. It had a top level--fun--that was there too. Melville should have had an editor with a big blue pen. It wasn't fun. I don't think it will last. I could (always always always) be wrong. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: oliven!martin@topaz.rutgers.edu (Martin L.W. Hall) Subject: Re: Two questions on "Back to the Future" Date: 10 Sep 85 15:59:08 GMT I have an interesting question: Is November 5 .... an important day for time travel? Both _Back_to_the_Future_ and _Time_After_Time_ (about H.G. Wells and Jack the Ripper) use that day as either a takeoff or arrival date....are there other movies that use this day...or is it just a coincidence? Martin Lewis Walter Hall Olivetti Advanced Technology Ctr. 20300 Stevenscreek Rd., Cupertino, Cal. 95014 (408) 996 3867 ext 2204 reply to: hplabs \ allegra > !oliveb!oliven!martin ios / ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (#349) Date: 9 Sep 85 15:07:55 GMT milne@uci-icse writes: >> Here's a tangential question for you all: In a galaxy with such a >> diverse population of sentients, why were most of the Imperials >> and Rebels human, while non-humans were mostly scum and villainy? >> And as a story teller, how could Lucas justify this? The game "Freedom in the Galaxy" from Avalon Hill is a fairly accurate recreation of a Star Wars-like setting, and it proposes a useful explanation for the widespread domination of humanoid life. Humans entered the galaxy from another one (far far away) in search of scientific freedom (in much the same way that many people came to North America in search of religious freedom). In particular, they were looking for a place where they could perform far-sweeping genetic experiments. The humans created many many genetic hybrids that were half-human, half another race. In this way, they hybridized most of the existing sentient species in the galaxy, making humanoid versions of everything. Time passed. Hybrids spread. The older races became worried about the hybrids, because they had all the good points of the old races plus the good points of humans as well. Wars broke out. The hybrids all aided each other, while the older races tended to fight individually (they had no evolutionary ties to species in other star systems). In the end, most of the older races were wiped out and replaced by hybrids. The result is a galaxy where most of the sentient beings are about human height, are bipedal, have two arms, one head, and so on (one could sometimes be fooled into thinking they were just humans in costumes!) The dominant race was purely human because the hybrids had built in deference instincts to humans (the scientists who built the original hybrids weren't dumb). Therefore humans were the natural rulers (because hybrids would defer to them) and the human form was the de facto standard. Gross deviations (like Jabba the Hut) are hold-overs from the old races and only achieve power through exceptional circumstances. I love pseudo-science. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 85 09:04:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: re: Scientology and stories (about scientology) > ....to a cult featured in a Norman Spinrad book, 'The Mind Game'. > The novel concenrs a hack sf author who finds that a novel he has > written is the basis for a cult. He takes over the cult... This msg implied a level of parallelism between this novel & L. Ron H. This may be...but I don't think he took over Scientology...from what I understand he created it from the start....on the other hand, there is always R.A.H. & _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land_..... Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Sep 85 1457-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #362 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 14 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 362 Today's Topics: Books - Cook & Goldstein & Harrison & Niven (2 msgs) & Tolkien (2 msgs) & First SF Book & Award Winners, Miscellaneous - Contacting Authors & Chris Lloyd & Matter Transmission & Critics & Choosing Books & Illustrated Books and Large Print & Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 85 00:50:55 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: More Books by Glen Cook ... According to Glen Cook, the second volume of the Silth War trilogy is due out sometime this month and the third one is due out in January. He also claims that he has sold two more Dread Empire books, but that they do not have release dates yet. I don't know why, but I have the feeling that the books are not written yet. Steve Z. P.S. Would you believe he only writes 1000 words a day? And he works 9 hours a day, 6 days a week on an assembly line? This is what he claimed on a panel at the NASFIC in Austin. (When asked why he worked on the assembly line he replied that he needed the money.) He is becoming a slightly better speaker on panels it seemed to me. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 85 01:35:37 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: The Red Magician ... I believe it is by Lisa Goldstein. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 85 01:08:59 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Stainless Steel Rat, a new book. Some one asked about rumors of a new Stainless Steel Rat book (I'm afraid I don't remember who asked though, I just read SF-L from August 17th to current - Sep 11th - and forgot to take notes). Well, that rumor is true. The new book is A Stainless Steel Rat Is Born and as the title implies it is about Slippery Jim's youth, up to about age 19 I think. The book is an October release from Bantam under the Spectra line, it may be in your bookstore now for all I know. Releases fom several publishers seem to appear about the middle of the previous month. I found a copy of the book in the dealers room at the NASFIC. If you're a Harry Harrison or Stainless Steel Rat purist/collecter then by all means bop out and buy the book. Otherwise, well, maybe give it a pass. It's an easy enjoyable read like the other Stainless Steel Rat books but I found it somewhat disappointing. I felt that the young Jim diGriz was too basically competent at everything and behaved too much like the older Slippery Jim that we are accustomed too. It was less like watching the birth a stainless steel rat than it was like watching Slippery Jim magically made physically (but not mentally) young again. Imnstead of buying the book, I would recommend waiting for the library (or a friend) to buy a copy and then borrowing if you really want to read it. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: Wed Sep 11 11:37:58 1985-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Re: Planetary maps on the Ringworld Paula Sanch points out that the Protectors induced large-scale vulcanism on the Pak home planet to get metal to build the evacuation fleet. Thus, the Map of Pak might be unrecognizable. True, the Protectors *may* have ripped up the landscape to get metal for the evacuation fleet. That is Truesdale's and Brennan's speculation. Even if they did muck up the Pak homeworld in order to escape the explosion of the galactic core, they must certainly have recordings of what the planet looked like before they destroyed it. If they are going to "decorate" the Ringworld with Maps of Earth, Kzin, etc. (which surely must be built from recorded information) a Map of Pak (before the fall) is not unreasonable. Tom Wadlow (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: UUCP: ..!ucbvax!dual!mordor!taw ..!decvax!decwrl!mordor!taw ------------------------------ From: 3comvax!michaelm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: Protectors and Known Space Novels Date: 11 Sep 85 00:25:59 GMT > Seems to me this "Niven has painted himself into a corner" > argument is a crock, at least from Niven's point of view. Why > can't he write a novel or some short stories occuring during, say, > the first Man/Kzin war? What about some new Gil Hamilton stories? > I'm sure these would be well received. > > Certainly, he's probably constrained from furthering the history > and mythos of Known Space, but I hardly think this prevents him > from writing about it entirely. I agree he probably could, but I suspect he's bored with it. > I heard from a friend of a friend that talked to Niven at a > convention. (Can YOU say "rumor"? I knew you could.) He said the > reason he has collaborated so much in recent years is that he has > been/is in a "dry" period, ideawise. However, this was before > "Integral Trees" which, if nothing else, had some interesting > ideas... *Integral Trees* certainly is interesting! (``Dry period,'' indeed!) I think the ``world'' of *Integral Trees* is at least as good a world-creation idea as *Ringwood* -- particularly since *Integral Trees* was a *natural* rather than constructed feature (and might even exist somewhere). I talked to Larry Niven at WesterCon this last July, and he said that he was, at that time, eleven chapters into a sequel to *Integral Trees*! (He said he was rewriting some of the earlier chapters to better fill out the civilization he was developing.) I'm certainly looking forward to it! The other novel which is out so far in Niven's new universe of the State is *A World Out of Time* -- which I also found very enjoyable. As a vision of what might happen on Earth over the next few *millions* of years, it was fascinating! Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation (415) 960-9367 ..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Tolkien's dwarf names Date: 10 Sep 85 19:16:22 GMT nrh@lzwi.UUCP (N.R.HASLOCK) writes: >It seems to me that back when I was living in England and more >hyped on Tolkien than I am now, that there was frequent comments >about his writing technique. > >He was a friend of C.S.Lewis and would meet regularly together with >some other literary friends. He would take sections of his current >work and read them to the group who would then criticise. ... I think the group was called the Inklings or something similar. Another member of the group was Charles Williams, writer of fantasies like 'All Hallow's Eve.' -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 85 01:33:07 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Tolkien The book about Tolkien by Lin Carter is "Tolkien: A Look Behind the Lord of the Rings" copyright 1969 my copy is a paperback from Ballantine. I read the book sometime ago, so do not remember the contents all that well, but the table of contents and the blurb on the inside assert that the book is about how LOTR grew out of the tradition of the classical epic I also have a copy of a smaller book called "Understanding Tolkein and the Lord of the Rings" by William Ready copyright 1968 printed by Coronet Communications under the Paperback Library imprint. This one appears to relate LOTR to Tolkien's own life. I do not really recall either of these books well, as I read them at least 10 years ago, quite possibly 14 years. (It can't be any longer than that due to the printing dates on one of them. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 85 14:21:38 EDT From: Peter.Su@CMU-CS-GANDALF Subject: First SF book I have found that non-SF readers tend to really like Shatterday, by Harlan Ellison, of course, these are short stories, but what the heck. Pete ARPA: hugo@cmu-cs-gandalf.arpa BELL:412-681-7431 UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,ihnp4,cmucspt}!hugo@cmu-cs-gandalf.arpa USPS: 5170 Beeler St., Pittsburgh PA 15213 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 85 17:55:00 GMT From: HUGHEE84%IRLEARN.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: HUGO and NEBULA winners. I wonder can anyone help with a list of HUGO and NEBULA winners. I am looking for the list of winning novels from 1975 onwards, which is where a few lists I do have start to disagree. Also, does anyone have the list of winning novels for the JW Campbell and IFA awards and for how long have these two prizes been given ? Reply direct if you like, thanks. Martin Hughes BITNET: HUGHEE84 AT IRLEARN ARPA: HUGHEE84%IRLEARN.BITNET@UCBVAX.ARPA ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: Re: Getting in contact with an author Date: 9 Sep 85 15:37:43 GMT In general, writing to the author's publisher is the fastest way to first get in contact with the writer. If the author personally responds, a return address is usually included for further correspondence. On the other hand, if an agent or secretary responds, you may get a form-letter---and this is probably because the author is swamped by fans, business proposals, etc. (I would guess that Asimov, Heinlein, etc., are in this category.) In that case, further correspondence should be routed through the secretary, agent, or (again) the publisher. In contrast to Brust's publisher, mine (Doubleday and Signet) forward messages with alacrity. And so far, I have managed to answer each letter personally, and have included my home address for further correspondence...and there has been considerable "further correspondence." But what the hell, it's enjoyable, otherwise I might not do it. Dennis L. McKiernan {ihnp4,cbosgd}!cbuxc!dim ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 85 11:58 EDT From: Jessie Tharp Subject: Christopher Lloyd I noticed that the Gestapo chief's aide in Mel Brooks _To_Be_Or_ Not_To_Be was played by Christopher Lloyd. Jessie (ops@ncsc) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 85 19:50:08 EDT From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A Subject: matter transmission and duplication oboy. we get to talk about matter transmission again. i don't care how many ra81's of data you have on me, and i don't care how good you are at reconstructing me: once i'm dead, i'm dead. you can make copies of me until you're blue in the face, but *i*'ll still be dead. you can walk into a disintegrator beam and have a copy of you made on another planet if you want, but i'm fond of this particular copy of myself. i suppose that's why i don't have any interest in having children. don provan@cmua.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Wed Sep 11 17:24:53 1985 From: kanders@lll-tis-a (Kevin Anderson) Subject: anti-art snobbery -- a clarification Okay, okay, I'll come out of the woodwork one final time. I did the original posting about Anti-Art Snobs, which Jerry Boyajian alone of all the net seems to have taken as a personal attack on his own reading tastes. Please listen again to what I was trying to say. SURELY everyone has met people who take pleasure in disliking "artsy fartsy" writing/painting/music, simply because it IS art? SURELY you have seen people who actually take pride in the fact that they don't understand 'works of literature?' I know so many of them they must be fairly common critters. Many times I have met people who scorn taking English courses in college because they make you read "literature" -- they thumb their noses at "literature" because 'we all know nobody but English teachers like that stuff!' There IS a snobbery *against* artistic work as much as there is snobbery on the part of art-types. I was perceiving undertones in the net discussion of DHALGREN that some people disliked it *because* it was artsy, and once they had come to that decision, they gave up reading the book without further effort. They loudly flamed against the book (not necessarily you, Jerry Boyajian -- my posting was neither aimed directly at you as a person or DHALGREN as a book), and seemed to be implying that nobody should bother to read it because it was just artsy drivel. There are some books which can give enjoyment without requiring any effort on the reader's part, such as pure action/adventure SF and other subgenres, but there are other books which do require reader participation, and one should not simply dismiss such a book as "oh well, that's just arsty crap anyway!" . I'm not saying that everyone must like DHALGREN or *any* book; I'm saying that to dismiss such a book because it is "artsy" is not being fair. I'm rather surprised and disappointed at the vehement reaction to what I had considered to be a fairly innocuous posting. Kevin J. Anderson ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 85 11:04:43 PDT (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Separating wheat from chaff Actually, I think this would tend to tell more about the writer of the rules than anything else, i.e. I happen to LIKE smart dolphin stories! Here's my set of decision rules, in no particular order: 1. Author Name Recognition -- if it's Zelazny, it must be worth reading, etc. 2. Recommendation From a Friend -- "I don't CARE if you think Piers Anthony is a repetitious, misogynous, money hungry sot! Read 'On a Pale Horse' or I'll KILL you!" 3. Random -- Better than 3 on a six-sided die. 4. [Very rarely] Craving For a Theme -- such as my recent search for computer science fiction. I make a point of NEVER reading a back-cover blurb or teaser page until AFTER I have read the book (such things are ALWAYS inaccurate and usually spoilers.) I try not to let cover art influence me, but sometimes it does. Reviews are anathema to me, therefore I cannot base decisions on such. Perry ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 85 02:06:38 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Illustrated books and "large" print Note : this is intended as an informational response to the message listing criteria for buying a book, not as a rebuttal of any of the criteria listed. Although I'm not keen on the novellas padded to novel length with illustrations, I did see/hear an assertion that it was a fairly recent affectation that lead to publications of novels w/o any illustration at all. What little evidence I have gathered by personal observation seems to indicate that this is true, on the other hand they never seem to have padded novellas to novel length that way in "those days". At the NASFIC, during question and answer session of one of the panels (I don't remember which one, I only made it to about 4 panels all weekend and I couldn't tell you which they were if I tried) someone asked a question that was basically "Why are you trying to rip us off by printing books with larger print and then charging us the same price as you do for normal length books with smaller print? If you didn't use that larger print the book would be smaller and we could pay less for these shorter books.". An editor/publisher responded by saying that publishers only started using the smaller print when paper costs started to go up, and that they did so to save money and keep the cost of books down, however they would prefer to print all books with the slightly larger print since they believe it is easier to read the larger print. Steve Z. ------------------------------ From: leadsv!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Salander) Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons) Date: 11 Sep 85 19:37:07 GMT According to rumors I have heard, if you removed the stormtrooper's armor, you would see that they are all CLONES! (And that Obi-Wan is really OB1, original body one!) stay tuned! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 13 Sep 85 1516-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #363 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 14 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 363 Today's Topics: Books - Card & Tremayne, Music - SF and Music, Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) & Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: smcvax!robert@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Matter Transmission Date: 11 Sep 85 19:02:00 GMT > A person's genetic code would fit on one or two RA81 disks. >James Hogan's idea (in _Voyage from Yesteryear_ (1982)) that unborn >people may travel to the stars in the form of data on a computer >may be workable. > [paragraph deleted] > Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could you >ever truly die? Along these lines, read _The_Hot_Sleep_ by Orson Scott Card Robert Wallace ctvax!smcvax!robert ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: Peter Tremayne Date: 12 Sep 85 20:13:32 GMT bjl@bridge2.UUCP writes: >Awhile back (and I still have the book) I read a book by Peter >Tremayne (a british publication) which was the first in a fantasy >trilogy, I have forgotten the name of the book, it is something >"Lan". Has anyone else read it? Or been able to locate the second >and third books? The books you are referring to are: The Fires of Lan-Kern The Destroyers of Lan-Kern The Buccaneers of Lan-Kern nThey are published by Methuen paperbacks. They are british, as you said. I have only read the first book so far, but I enjoyed it and plan on getting the others. I found them at Tales From the White Hart in Baltimore. I suggest you find a science fiction specialty shop in your area and ask them about the books. the Shadow ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Sep 1985 13:38:01-PDT From: maxwell%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: SF Music Back in V 10 #277 (July), druxo!knf@topaz.arpa mentions a song "Children of the Sun", which I believe is actually a reference to the song "After the Gold Rush", on an album by a group called (I think) Gold Rush. This song is particularly memorable to me, is the first cut on the album, and is sung [excellently] acappella. It [at least the last part?] goes something like: I was lying in a burned out basement with the full moon in my eye. I was hoping for a replacement, when the sun burst through the sky. There was a band playing, in my head, and I felt like getting high, thinking about what a friend had said, I was hoping it was a lie. "Well, I dreamed I saw the silver spaceship flying, in the yellow haze of the sun. There were people crying, and banners flying, all around the chosen one. All in a dream, all in a dream, the loading had begun. Flying Mother Nature's silver seed to a new home in the sun. Flying Mother Nature's silver seed to a new home in the sun." The song is very haunting, both in its content and its execution. The remainder of the album struck me as being mildly religious.... Sid Maxwell, DEC @ Spit Brook Rd, Nashua NH ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 85 03:49:05 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Critics and how DID we form our dislikes for them? Although I have no great love for the majority of critics, who to me seem to be critics mostly because they are incapable of doing anything more creative than downgrading other peoples work. I am somewhat disturbed by the virulence I see in the "anti-critic" side of this debate. I wonder where people picked up such hardened and harsh points of view (I'll come back to this later). I suppose I should be as disturbed by the harshness of some the "pro-critic" debaters also, but I have come to expect it of that side of the argument. I have met far too many supposedly educated, liberal people who were totally incapable of admitting that there might be any viewpoint but their own. My experience has been that these people argue like Mr Tucker. It is arguments like his that provoke my own dislike of "Art" and those who espouse it; in politics it is people who argue the way he does that push me away from the "liberal" side of issues and towards the conservative side. As the old line goes, "I may not know Art, but I know what I like"; and I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone else deny me the right to make my own choices. Even when my preferences changes from year to year and even day to day. I would rather be an ignorant barbarian (but not a philistene since I am of the wrong religion for it) than one of the elite who deny others the right to an opinion. I don't know about anyone else, but for me one of the great turn-offs on "Art" and "Literature" was the English classes at all levels that made reading and writing into chores. It seemed as if their intent was to deny me the right to have a personal interpretation of a work different from the teacher's approved interpretation. Poetry wasn't read for the sake of poetry, but instead to determine the meter, count the alliterations, pull it apart and label the onomatopaeia (sp?). I had one teacher that had us searching in Hamlet to find all the "famous" quotes (there are a surprising number of them by the way), and she gave out work sheets with busy work of finding particular lines in the play, no particular reason for the lines, just busy work so she could give us grades. I think if she had had her way, we would simply have wandered back and forth in the text without ever seeing a performance of Hamlet (and let's face it Shakespeare wrote his plays to be performed not to be read out of a book), fortunately she had been ill for quite a stretch and another teacher standing in for her took us to see a video-tape of a very good production of Hamlet and worked us most of the way through Hamlet AS A PLAY so that we did get some appreciation for the skill and beauty that went into Shakespeare's works. Hmm, that last paragraph went on a bit didn't it? Well, at any rate these experiences in high school and junior high pretty much soured me on "Art" and "Literature". It's taken years to recover from the damage done by some of those "teachers"; I must also admit that being one of the social outcasts of the school system peer groups tended to harden my attitudes a lot by driving me deeply into escapist literature. I wonder how many of the other "anti-critic" faction have suffered from similar ways of being force fed culture, art, and literature in the wrong way or at the wrong time. Or in other ways denied the right to have their own opinions and interpretations. Each work speaks to each of us in a different way, depending on the other things we have seen and done in our lives. To deny someone the validity of their vision, or belief simply because it is not the same as yours is, in some ways, to deny that person's very humanity; the very same spark of humanity you claim to be promoting by trying to forcefeed your opinions on "Art" and "Literature". I read SF primarily to be entertained; I always have. I don't want to have to work too hard at it; I have to read too many computer manuals and other technical things at work and for school. But I must admit, it is nice to know that there is a Gene Wolfe out there in the field (even if I don't understand everything in the Book of the New Sun), and a Harlan Ellison, and others writing something besides the purely entertainment things. And maybe I'll understand all of it one day, but I don't see why it HAS to be TODAY that I understand it all, or even tomorrow; there are so many things out there waiting to be seen and understood that if I rush out and throw myself into all of them I might easily overload and not enjoy any of them because I am woking so hard at it. After all of this, I also want to say that it is nice to be able to pick a critical analysis written by someone that doesn't have an axe to grind; or at least tells you in advance that they are grinding an axe instead of being reasonably objective. It can really provide new light on a work when you are able to find out how someone else interpreted it, when you are really getting criticism of the work itself instead of watching the work be used as a soapbox by the critic to present a lecture on some favored topic of its. Hmm, my watch says it's way past my bdetime, so I think I will just send this semi-coherent ramble and toddle off to sleep ... Happy Flaming, Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 1985 13:18:50 EDT (Thursday) From: Ray Chen (MS W420) Subject: re: critics >From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms) >>brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >>It is my considered (and I do mean considered) opinion (and I do >>mean opinion) that to be great art a book must be, first of all, a >>good read. If something is sufficiantly inaccessible that it >>cannot be read for fun, it fails as art because it will only speak >>to that small segment of the population that is already prepared >>to listen; its exploration of (if I may) the human condition is >>wasted on those who could otherwise get the most out of it.... > >Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it >can't be great art? And if you have to work to understand it, >ditto? Judith and others, An old English teacher of mine once gave me a prerequisite for classic literature. Basically, a classic piece of literature should be able to be read at many different levels. It should be like an onion with many different layers (but no bad spots). You should be able to read it for fun and enjoy it one time and be able to read it for something deeper some other time and enjoy it as well. When reading a classic piece of literature, you should get out of it what you put into it. There should be deep and profound ideas, conflicts, etc. in the novel for those who are willing and able to look for them. Yet, there should also be something for those who only want solid entertainment. Shakespeare, for example, in his time was a very popular playwright, and not because his plays were thought to be that good or profound. (In fact, a lot of people looked down him and his work.) He was well liked because his plays were FUN. There were sexual innuendos, puns galore, and slapstick humor throughout all his plays. They just don't appear that obvious to us now, because we don't know Elizabethan slang. Homer's epic poems, too were passed down orally long before they were ever written down. Somehow, I doubt that generations of Greek tribesmen memorized them because they were "Art". They memorized them because they appealed to people at many different levels. I don't think that being a good read automatically makes a book a literature. There are a lot of books out there that are fun, but don't have the content to be considered literature or art. However, I do think that literature should be a good read. Ray Chen chen@mitre-gw ------------------------------ Subject: Storm-troopers armor Date: 12 Sep 85 22:00:12 EDT (Thu) From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA I kind of like the ``blasters are a recent innovation'' argument. The Jedi knights were using light-sabres (although perhaps only for ceremonial purposes) just a generation ago. On the other hand, dueling with swords lasted for a couple of centuries after the development of hand-guns, so no real good conclusion can be drawn from the use of light-sabres by the knights. But storm trooper armor, pretty useless against blasters, may be good for: a) toxic gases and radiation (either used as weapons, or caused by accident when boarding a ``nuclear powered'' space vessel. They might also be good against vacuum. Which would explain their use in the earlier films in space battles, but is a fairly poor excuse for their use on planets like the moon of Endor, where you wouldn't expect the natives to go squirting nerve gas at you. (The protection against atmosphere-borne disease has already been mentioned.) I suppose the armor might be a vacuum suit for use in boarding ships with ruptured hulls. Its use on planets with an atmosphere might be just a hold over. b) most of the more primitive weapons available to subject races like the ewoks (although I guess in RotJ the armor wasn't all that good against ewok arrows). c) shrapnel from explosions. Throw a hand-grenade among a crowd of storm troopers and you might only kill one or two, not the whole lot of them. You might expect that the empire's biggest problems are guerrilla warfare and terrorism like you see in most national liberation movements today, and the armor might be proof against typical terrorist tactics like car-bombs. Maybe it isn't armor? Maybe the empire's troops are white insectoid creatures? Nope, that won't work, we see Luke and Han put on the armor in A New Hope... I give up. I wonder why we never see storm-troopers in combat fatigues. Why does the empire use storm troopers at all? Why not armed-to-the-teeth droids? Maybe droids are too expensive, and conscripts are cheap. Only we see lots of evidently cheap and stupid droids for use on the Lars' farm and for other menial tasks. Just fit a blaster on them and tell them to shoot anything that moves. On the other hand, if you (a rebel force) succeed in immobilizing a droid, there's nothing to stop you from re-programming it (assuming you can circumvent its self-destruct mechanism) to go home to the barracks and raise havoc there among the empire's forces, or reprogramming it to fight on your side. Soldiers in plastic armor are a bit harder to reprogram. Even if the intelligence in the droid is so complex that you can't reprogram it (without ``lobotomizing'' it and thus making it much less useful), even if you have to destroy the droid's ``brain'', you can use the rest of it as spare parts for your own attack droids, something that probably isn't too easy to do with spare parts of your soldiers... Hmm, for that matter, circumventing the attack-droid's self-destruct might be easy because the self-destruct would have to be built in a way that it couldn't be used against you as a weapon. That is, an opponent shouldn't be able to convince your entire fighting force to self-destruct on the battle-field. Also, unless all of your attack droids are designed to be kamikazes, they presumably come back need to be repaired, so they can't self-destruct whenever you open their casing. Fooling the droid into believing that it's being legitimately repaired long enough to turn it off in order to change its programming (or replace its brain) probably isn't that hard. What if the empire has an elaborate recognition code for its repair crews? The code is breakable, particularly if you have code box debris lying around the battlefield. Also, the empire doesn't want to make it too hard to repair the droids, or they won't be able to repair them themselves under battlefield conditions. [If you think my proposition that war-machines be recycled by the other side is unrealistic, just remember that Egypt gets its spare parts for its Soviet-built tanks from Israel, who gets them from the battle-field. Israel has a VERY EFFECTIVE weapon-recycling program.] Okay, so I guess there's a good reason to have a fighting force composed primarily of humans instead of machines (or humans directly controlling simple machines, such as the walkers and blasters). ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Sep 85 0929-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #364 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 364 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Critics (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: critics (Long!!) Date: 11 Sep 85 20:23:35 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >> Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it >> can't be great art? And if you have to work to understand it, >> ditto? > >No and yes. So a book can be 'great art' if many people can't understand it, but can't be great art if it requires work? Consider the subclass of books that you'd call 'great art.' By your answers to above questions, some of those 'great books' are beyond the abilities of many people to understand them. But these impenetrable books have to be accessible to fit your criterion for 'great art.' How can they be impenetrable and accessible at the same time? Is this like a Zen koan? ;-) >However, a work that is opaque to the average contemporary reader >is never, in my opinion, great art. It is fine if the reader has >to work at it; it is flawed if the reader has insufficient reason to >want to. Semantics: the relationships between signs and symbols and the concepts, feelings, etc. associated with them in the minds of their interpreters. What you're doing here is stating a personal definition of art (and what's more GREAT art). Stating an idiosyncratic definition doesn't redefine a term for society at large. Furthermore, a term like 'great art' can have an interpretation agreed upon by a subgroup in society that differs from the interpretation that's considered commonly accepted. Which definition is 'correct,' and does correctness have any meaning in this context? The answer is not as immediately obvious as you seem to want us to believe. Consider, for example, the loaded term 'secular humanist.' If a group of people decide to create a new symbol like this and use it regularly to describe reality their very use of the symbol tends to lend it a certain credibility. Perhaps the media-concocted term 'yuppie' is a perfect example. Many people's belief in this creature is supported by the fact that media people seem to believe it exists (or created it to sell newspapers and magazines). As human beings, we use symbols to partition the world and make sense of it. But it's easy to confuse the symbol with reality: creating a symbol like 'yuppie' doesn't automatically imply that a creature that fits the definition of yuppie is real. And my use of the symbol is no guarantee that everyone else uses it in the same way. The confusion of the symbol with the symbolized is one reason why people come to believe in a term like 'yuppie' without bothering to question whether it describes something that really exists as a discrete and unambiguous category of objects. We change our own perception of reality to an extent through our creation and manipulation of symbols: a study of an American Indian society that recognizes a different set of primary colors than the Anglo's Roy G. Biv found that its members were very good at recognizing fine shades of blue-green (one of their primary colors) but not as good at recognizing fine shades of blue or green (our primary colors). The situation was reversed for members of Anglo-American society (note: for anyone who's interested I think this was a study by Benjamin Whorf; someone will correct me if I'm wrong). The argument over 'great art' is an argument about the meaning of a symbol. Our understanding of the word 'art' is conditioned by cultural forces as well as personal. Made objects in other societies may look aesthetically pleasing, and stories told in other societies may be fun to listen to. But the fundamental relationship between human being and made object/story may be profoundly different than what we're used to. A story may be given ritual embellishments that are pleasing but are intended to please the gods rather than the listeners, for example. And a battle-axe may be given intricate carvings to increase its ritual power or simply because the society believes that's the way a battle axe SHOULD look. There ain't no such animal as 'art' in the sense of an object or category that has reality as a primary attribute. 'Art' describes a relationship that exists between a member of a culture and the objects of its own creation. Anyone who's interested in this might want to check out "The Savage Mind" by Claude Levi-Strauss. What Steve Brust is doing here, it seems to me, is coming up with his own personal symbol for the reader/book relationship and asking us to accept it as superior to other symbols for that relationship that many other members of society use. The only reason a phrase like 'great book' exists is that one or more persons decided to invent it to describe a class of objects. Its use says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of that class of objects, just as saying 'shiftless welfare moochers' does not automatically cause an underclass to spring into existence. Mr. Brust has one definition of 'great art' which he defines for us here at some length. The term means something different, however, to many of the rest of us who happen to share this culture with him. A consensus on its meaning (if there is one) would define certain attributes that indicate a great book. Lasting power is one that's often mentioned, but more fundamental is perhaps the illumination of those characteristics that define us as human beings: the meaning of life, love, and hate in human relationships; the growth and decay of societies and cities; and so on. It's our recognition of our own passions, strengths and weaknesses in Shakespeare that many people believe is responsible for his continued success as a writer over the centuries, not that he's 'fun to read.' >I don't "insist" on that, and I do, in fact, read authors who force >me to work and are not enjoyable. These people are craftsman in >their own way. But I do not call them artists. What they produce >just isn't good enough. Now you're redefining 'craftsman' and 'quality' for the rest of us. I think you believe a little too strongly in the power of your personal definitions, Steve. Your refusal to call them artists has little to do with the conventionally accepted definition of art, and you're going to have to go a lot farther to prove to us that it's worthwhile scrapping a definition most people agree on for your own idiosyncrasy. The bottom line would seem to be that you equate working for something with drudgery and art with fun. I'm sure you've known people who enjoy work and feel that art is drudgery. Your attitudes may be related to the division in our society between labor and leisure. Since you see reading and art (perhaps) as leisure time activities, any suggestion that work might be involved in reading a particular 'work of art' causes you to eliminate it from the category of possible 'great books.' But the division between labor and leisure in our society has to do with our economic system; it doesn't mean that abstract entities called 'labor' and 'leisure' really exist (for those who are interested in this topic, there was a philosopher who wrote a book about this; it has 'Leisure' in its title, and may have been written by Karl Popper. I'm sure your local library has it). One man's labor is another's leisure; the personal computer is a perfect example. I happen to enjoy the work I put into reading a 'difficult' book; it's part of the 'fun' of reading it for me. >The points you raise are well taken. But I continue to disagree. >I'm glad I read Moby Dick. There was a lot to it. But it failed >as art. Huckleberry Finn did not. There was as much going on >underneath, but Twain didn't leave the roof off his house. It had >a top level--fun--that was there too. Melville should have had an >editor with a big blue pen. It wasn't fun. I don't think it will >last. I could (always always always) be wrong. I know several people beside myself who ENJOY Melville and think he's fun (two of them are old Navy men and sailing buffs). It's full of the sea, wisdom, and a hell of a sense of humor. The scene where Queequeg (sp?) crawls into bed with Ishmael for the first time is amusing to me as is the initial scene where Ishmael talks about getting the 'hypos' and hitting out for the open sea. I IDENTIFY with Ishmael, laugh with him as I recognize a common and primordial human experience, and as a result I have (believe it or not) FUN when I read the book. What you're talking about is your own personal preferences and prejudices, not about qualities people can use to reach a consensus on to define what's 'great art' and what's not. As to Moby Dick's 'lasting:' it was written (I think) in 1835 or thereabouts. How many novels continue to have admirers and readers who enjoy them after 150 years? -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: lzwi!nrh@topaz.rutgers.edu (N.R.HASLOCK) Subject: Re: critics (Long!!) What is art? Date: 11 Sep 85 15:42:27 GMT brust@hyper.UUCP (Steven Brust) writes: >> Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it >> can't be great art? And if you have to work to understand it, >> ditto? > > No and yes. My contribution to this discussion is a simple ( very difficult ) question. What is art? What is the artistic content of the medium that we(?) are discussing? A work of literature has both structure and style. The structure is the story being told, with all its subplots, twists, turns and final resolution. The style is the way in which the reader is exposed to the structure, or the the way the author hides the structure from the reader. Note: These are my definitions for the purposes of my comments. Feel free to use them if they make sense to you. >> You might argue (as many did when Joyce, Eliot, and Pound first >> published) that it's perverse and snobbish to pour a great talent >> into the production of work that's more or less opaque to the >> average *contemporary* reader. > > There is a clear and present danger that we will soon find > ourselves attempting to define "art." I would enjoy the effort, > but I enjoy futile pursuits. However, a work that is opaque to > the average contemporary reader is never, in my opinion, great > art. It is fine if the reader has to work at it; it is flawed if > the reader has insufficant reason to want to. >> Anyway, what about older books? > I don't understand. What about them? What is opaque? Obviously it must be the style, otherwise we would be seeing comments about books with no story. The question is, how much story is left if we take away the style and would it be worth reading? ( I cannot comment here, not having taken the time to read the works in question ). Given that a lots of the 'Classics' have been abridged and otherwise munged into child readable form while most of the specified authors have not, I would suspect that there is not enough story to make it worth the effort. For me, great art should have both style and structure and the two should complement each other. Experiments with style may be fun for the author and interesting for the literate but without a complementing structure, the result is unlikely to be great art. >>>One test of literature that I'm particularly fond of is: how long >>>is the author remembered? >> >> By whom?. .... How much of this stuff would have survived at all >> if it hadn't been preserved and taught in the schools? > > We have no disagreement here. All of the things you have > just mentioned are things that I consider to be great art. > > Fun, aren't they? But does this not give us a training in what is supposed to be great art? Do not all of these things have a worthwhile story as well as a unique style? Have not all of these stories been rewritten for children on the basis of the story alone, resulting in non art. >>>what writer who is remembered and, more, STILL READ after a >>>hundred years failed to write stories or books that were fun to >>>read? >> >> All these people wrote works that were fun to read, but they >> didn't STAY fun to read when their languages ceased to be >> current. > > Here we just disagree. I can't think of anything else to say. I disagree too, look at some translations where the translator has succeeded in applying a currently acceptable style to the work. For example Magnus Magnusson's translations of the Icelandic sagas. >> I suppose I'm saying that in order to have good writers, you have >> to have good writers -- not hard writers or easy ones, just good >> ones. I think if you insist that a work be easy reading and fun >> (RIGHT AWAY!), you may not be giving it a chance. > > I don't "insist" on that, and I do, in fact, read authors who > force me to work and are not enjoyable. These people are > craftsman in their own way. But I do not call them artists. What > they produce just isn't good enough. And this distinction--what > is and is not art--actually matters to me, for what reasons I'm > not sure. I am sure of opinions on what makes for great art-- > just as I am sure that these opinions will change, perhaps into > their opposite, as I continue to read and think about what I've > read. No one if forced to read a book, ( after leaving school ) and writing books that are difficult to read merely reduces the readership. If the book is an experiment with a new style, then there is no problem. Just remember that style can be display as easily in a short book as in a long book. If the purpose of the book is to familiarize the readership with the style so that the author can later write his masterpiece in his new and difficult style, then the book should be only long enough to do that. Producing a long book in a difficult style that is unfamiliar to the authors readership is pointless unless the book is also fun. It will never be recognized as great unless someone, probably someone else, works exceptionally hard to make that particular style popular. >> One of the reasons I enjoy reading the newsgroups is that, just >> as in more formal publications, people write well here. I just >> can't believe such good writing has developed without at least >> some study of our language and literature. I think I know what >> the work of people who read only "fun stuff" looks like: as an >> editor, I'm often called on to reorganize their writing for >> publication. To my knowledge [!!!] I've never seen clear, >> fluent, interesting writing from someone whose first criterion >> for choosing a book was that it be accessible. If that's what >> I'm looking at now, well, it's never too late to learn. Surely, 'clear, fluent, interesting writing' is 'accessible' because it is clear, fluent and interesting. Maybe I missed something? > I'm glad I read Moby Dick. There was a lot to it. But it failed > as art. Huckleberry Finn did not. There was as much going on > underneath, but Twain didn't leave the roof off his house. It had > a top level--fun--that was there too. Melville should have had an > editor with a big blue pen. It wasn't fun. I don't think it will > last. I could (always always always) be wrong. There is simply too much written material for me to be able to read it all in the space of this lifetime. If a book is seriously flawed, I will need a very compelling reason to read it. Simplistic style and simplistic plotting may still contain neat concepts that make the 90 minute invested worthwhile. If may favorite reviewers cannot find anything good to say about a difficult book then I will probably not bother to open the cover and I will find something else to call art. {ihnp4|vax135|allegra}!lznv!nrh Nigel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Sep 85 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #365 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 365 Today's Topics: Books - Card & St. Clair & Crowley & Delany & Harrison & Niven & Zelazny & First Books (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Bars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: udenva!showard@topaz.rutgers.edu (showard) Subject: Re: Ender's Game (book) Date: 11 Sep 85 21:32:50 GMT > Does anyone have thoughts about Orson Scott Card's new book, a > novel length version of "Ender's Game"? I saw it in a bookstore.. > > Steven I read the novel, not having read the short story. It seemed fairly obvious what additions had been made and my roommate confirmed my suspicions. There is a great deal of information about Ender's early training, from his kindergarten level military academy to the elite training school at the end. Also, there is a totally unnecessary subplot concerning Ender's brother and sister and a computer news network. If you really, really liked the short story, pick up the novel at your nearest library. If you've never read either one, go for the short story. udenva!showard ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Re: Alien Lowlife in Star Wars Date: 12 Sep 85 11:46:55 GMT >Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ? Margaret St. Clair wrote a story in the '50s or so about a boring race. It, and they, were called "Prott." They did nothing but bore humans. They were not humanoid (sorry, I can't think of a boring-race/us story offhand), but looked like gigantic spacegoing fried eggs. The story begins with a Prott discovering a human in a spaceship; the Prott enthusiastically begins telling the human everything it can think of about "--ing the --." However, the man can't make out what the noun and verb in the telepathically transmitted phrase mean, so the Prott explains some more... and more... and brings equally enthusiastic friends, all of whom are eager to clarify the human's ideas about this supremely important activity. And won't stop... I feel a spoiler coming on so I'll stop summarizing here. Does anyone know where this story appeared, or whether it's still available somewhere? Judith Abrahms {ucbvax, ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 85 13:50:29 PDT (Friday) Subject: Re: Little, Big From: Peter Alfke From Steven Brust: >I read John Crowley's LITTLE, BIG, worked hard at it because it >wasn't an easy book to read, and was blown away by it. I have >recommended it to many people. I am very glad I read it. It was >beautifully crafted, and said things that I think are important to >say, and looked into things that deserved looking into. It was not >a great book, however; it was too dificult to read to be a great >book. I am confused. Did you really find "Little, Big" hard to read? Crowley isn't playing with the prose stylistically, a la Joyce or Delany; he just uses the language very expressively. While his writing may be harder to read than your standard modern prose (Niven, Heinlein, Hemingway et al), I can't see it really falling into the "definitely tough slogging" category. Compare with any of James Branch Cabell's writing: now THAT'S "difficult to read" (though rewarding and surprisingly witty if you expend the effort). I don't believe that Crowley's writing is tangled and opaque enough so as to detract from his works' greatness, particularly considering all the praise you heaped upon his book. PS: A tip to you and anyone else who enjoyed "Little, Big": go read "Winters' Tale" by Mark Helprin. It's similar in style and tone to "Little, Big", although the territory it inhabits is closer to the "mainstream" (whatever that may mean). Also highly recommended is of course Crowley's "Engine Summer", which I have raved about pretty recently in this forum. --Peter Alfke ------------------------------ Date: Sat 14 Sep 85 10:27:41-PDT From: Stuart Cracraft Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #361 Regarding DHALGREN by Delany... I think the book is total garbage. I stopped less than half-way because I couldn't stomach 1) the boredom 2) the verbosity with no real purpose 3) the self-indulging nature of the author. Delaney has never been one of my favorite authors in any genre, because I think his 'experimental' styles and 'clever techniques' are almost useless in terms of telling a good story and telling it well. For many of the same reasons I didn't like Joyce's FINNEGAN'S WAKE OR ULLYSES (sp?). These types of 'experiments' just don't appeal to me. Folks, if you want a really BRILLIANT novel that extends the concept of what it means to *BE* a novel, please read Vladimir Nabokov's LOLITA. Forget everything you've heard about it from 'old wives' concerned about their children and all that usual clap-trap. Go into it with an open mind, get past the first difficult 20-30 pages, and you will have found the gem of all novels. Since I read the book 5 years ago, nothing, REPEAT NOTHING, I have read has come close. In fact, Nabokov and his wily ways may have done permanent damage to my ability to enjoy novels. Sadly, none of Nabokov's other novels even comes close to this one work, so it really stands alone. Stuart ------------------------------ From: ptsfb!djl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe) Subject: A Stainless Steel Rat Is Born Date: 14 Sep 85 03:15:37 GMT _A _S_t_a_i_n_l_e_s_s _S_t_e_e_l _R_a_t _I_s _B_o_r_n by _H_a_r_r_y _H_a_r_r_i_s_o_n This book is logically the first one in the saga of James Bolivar diGriz (a.k.a. Slippery Jim). It follows him from the time he turns 17 and is legally an adult until he is 19 or 20. James has apparently always been a gifted crook although there are some flashbacks to show us his not so fumbling beginnings. This book shows us James turning from a crook into "The Stainless Steel Rat". The first part of the book takes place on the planet of his birth, "Bit O'Heaven", which sounds remarkably like Secaucus New Jersey. :-) Here James starts his life outside the law. Bit O'Heaven is theoretically a frontier planet, but even here life has stagnated and nothing has changed in a thousand years. James refuses to fit the mold and decides that a life of crime is his only chance for freedom. The second part takes place on the planet Spiovente which is run by a sort of feudal mafia. This part I found reminiscent of "Deathworld II". There is very little new in this book that has not been said in the other books in this series, or in the Deathworld series. But if you enjoyed them, you will enjoy this one also. It is well written and keeps the interest of the reader. My only complaint is that I could not believe the ending. I thought it did not fit with the characters as drawn througout the book. (If I said anymore, I'd need a spoiler warning.) I would like to know if anybody else found it as disconcerting as I did. Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell {ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl (415) 823-2408 ------------------------------ From: dcl-cs!jam@topaz.rutgers.edu (John A. Mariani) Subject: Niven in the Corner Date: 12 Sep 85 10:37:04 GMT scott@hou2g.UUCP (Racer X) writes: >Seems to me this "Niven has painted himself into a corner" argument >is a crock, at least from Niven's point of view. Why can't he >write a novel or some short stories occuring during, say, the first >Man/Kzin war? What about some new Gil Hamilton stories? I'm sure >these would be well received. > >Certainly, he's probably constrained from furthering the history >and mythos of Known Space, but I hardly think this prevents him >from writing about it entirely. Here comes another uninformed opinion from me. I don't know Larry Niven but for about 5 years he was unarguably my favourite SF author so I do know his work (not in the encyclopaedic way many net.sf-lovers do, as recent postings have shown -- boy, am I jealous!) so .. I feel Mr. Niven does NOT want to write stories within the existing framework; he wants to do NEW stuff (as the Integral Trees has shown). I think the last thing he would want to do is hack out new Gil Hamilton stories (unless, of course, he had a good idea). And, as Scott "rumoured", Niven's had a "dry" period. Still, as I said at the start, this is all guesswork; could be Scott's right. I'm sure we'd all love to read new Known Space stuff -- even if it was all in the existing framework. P.S. Can I add my plea for a re-posting of "Down In Flames"? Sounds as if Niven SHOULD write it -- even if it was "set in a parallel Known Space" -- who cares? If its a GOOD STORY that we'd enjoy, he should write it! UUCP: ...!seismo!mcvax!ukc!dcl-cs!jam DARPA: jam%lancs.comp@ucl-cs JANET: jam@uk.ac.lancs.comp Phone: +44 524 65201 ext 4467 Post: University of Lancaster, Department of Computing, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK. ------------------------------ From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Catching up on the backlist Date: 11 Sep 85 13:24:00 GMT Slight Spoiler Warning I give TOD a higher rating for one reason. I think Zelazny is trying to learn how to write about more normal people. A good chunk of his protagonists are superhuman if mortal. They also talk a like. (read the Avalon section of amber,The Last Defender of Camelot, This Immortal (the duel with slings) and any of the world sculptor stories close together) This has bothered me somewhat over the years. I think TOD comes in as a partially failed attempt to write about someone who isn't hypercompetent. The problem is he picked a member of the Courts of Chaos to do it. Having someone who grew up there be naive is hard to credit. I think it would have worked better if Merl had grown up on shadow Earth and was largely ignorant of his powers over shadow. What i would really like to know is what home life at the Courts was like. Calling Dara (in her normal form) "Mother" must have had it's moments. Chris Kostanick decvax!vortex!ism780!ico!chris ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!ico!chris ------------------------------ From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: recommended first sf Date: 12 Sep 85 00:21:38 GMT The first sf book I read was _Fall of Moondust_ by Arthur C. Clarke. This was before I even knew what science fiction was. All I knew was that it was a good book and did anyone know any other books by Clarke..... Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 13 Sep 1985 11:21:28-PDT From: emcwilliams%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA Subject: Someone's first SF Personally, I think perhaps one should recommend just a nibble of SF to a first time reader, i.e. a short story. There are plenty of them in all the genres listed in previous digests. But it seems more likely to me that giving someone twenty pages or so of a story-type you think they might appreciate is a better approach than trying to feed them 250 (or heavens forbid, 600 pages!!). I know I was more willing to try squid in appetizer-size bits than I would have been if someone had handed me an entree-size portion. Just a thought. Ellen McWilliams ------------------------------ From: render@uiucdcsb.Uiuc.ARPA Subject: Re: First SF book -- an "anti-suggestio Date: 13 Sep 85 18:55:00 GMT If you are suggesting first-time books for a female reader, I would recommend DOWNBELOW STATION by C.J. Cherryh. It is an excellent intro to the field, covering space stations, faster than light travel, alien civilizations, the works. Plus, it is well written, entertaining and thoroughly enjoyable purely from a literary standpoint. The author has several other books out which would also be good for first-timers, including MERCHANTER'S LUCK, PRIDE OF CHANUR, and FORTY THOUSAND IN GEHENNA. Hal Render {pur-ee, ihnp4} ! uiucdcs ! render render@uiuc.csnet render@uiuc.arpa ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 13 Sep 85 15:22:15 GMT > I would opt for a good collection of short stories by a variety of > authors. This is how I got my father (long time science fiction > hater) hooked. I have often found short stories to be much more innovative and experimental. One could speculate as to why this is so. Since there is a smaller time investment in a short story it is easier to try things that may not work, explore ideas, and develop concepts that are interesting for a short time but not worth large scale exploration. Earl Tubb who writes the Dumarest series (and seems to write essentially the same book over and over) had some really excellent short stories in an Ace double while his novels are at best mediocre. I really enjoyed the story where a modern man on a lark tries a formula to summon a demon and it works. Rather humorous. I'm not in general a big fan of short stories but some I have read have definitely been excellent. > Okay, question time. Of the people out there who have read both > Lord of Light and Creatures of Light and Darkness -- how many of > you liked the first one you read (whatever that was, unless you > read them at the same time) better? So far every single person I > know who has read both of them likes the first one they read > better. I don't know why. I like Lord of Light better and I read Creatures of Light and Darkness first. Or did I read Lord of Light first? Heck, I don't know it's been a long time. David Albrecht ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@topaz.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Re: Tall tales in Bars Date: 13 Sep 85 21:52:57 GMT > From: Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA > Sparked mainly by the discussion of tall tales in bars stories > earlier this summer, I have spent some recent time reading > Callahan's stories, Draco Tavern stories, and others. They have > prompted me to ask the following question (and since you all > happen to be sitting out there listening so nicely, I thought I'd > ask it of YOU!!-- who knows, maybe you've got an answer.) > > What makes us think that any other species out there would have > any interest at all in a bar? Granted, they seem to be fairly > universal earth customs, but why would an alien species have a > desire to get inebriated? Or even to hold the sort of social > concourse that a tavern provides? When you stand back and look at > these quaint earth customs (at least when I stand back and look at > them,) they seem to be kind of weird. But then, that's one of the > problems with being isolated on some backwater planet in the > boondocks of the galaxy-- since your species is the only one > you've got to compare you to, everything looks weird-- or > everything looks normal. Take your pick. > > So any way, what do you all think? Dear Chris, et al: For the most part, those alien creatures seen in Star Wars bars, and those in most stories about SW-type bars, are vaguely humanoid in thought, form, or habit. If they are at the bar, one presumes they would be of the sort that like to be in bars for some reason. The really weird ones probably don't go to bars at all, but spend their time in strange pursuits like golf, racquetball, and other galactic yuppie pasttimes... arlan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Sep 85 1018-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #366 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 18 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 366 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & First SF Book, Miscellaneous - Choosing Books & Matter Transmission (4 msgs) & Bar Stories & Star Wars & Book Price Increase ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS digest entry Date: 12 Sep 85 16:18:00 GMT Sorry for the belated reply, I was out of town. Having presented such a broad target by declaring Asimov's recent work "crud," I'll try to defend myself. Two works, FOUNDATION'S EDGE and ROBOTS OF DAWN are the subject of my opinion. My opinion of these works being "crud" rests on three basis. 1. Character. The original Foundation trilogy had a whole raft of believable, memorable characters that I could recall without flipping through the book -- Hari Seldon, Gaal Dornick, Salvor Hardin, Hober Mallow, Latham Devers, Asper the Well-Beloved and his shrewish wife (funny, she doesn't look shrewish :-;), Bel Riose, Hans Pritcher, the Mule, Arkady, and Preem Palver for starts. Likewise, Caves of Steel, had a very interesting Lije Baley, R. Daneel Olivaw, and the inspector ***** SPOILER ***** who as Lije's boss, was the culprit -- I forget his name but remember the character well. In Foundation's Edge (FE), you *might* remember Golan Treveize six months after you read the book (whereas I remembered many of the trilogy characters and haven't read that in years.) In Robots of Dawn (ROD), Lije Baley is still there, but the character seems flatter to me, being more of a device being pulled across the stage from event to event as he discovers the pieces of the puzzle necessary to solve the mystery. I do not accept that this is necessary given the mystery nature of the plot; plenty of mysteries have decent characterization. 2. Plot. FT had a very satisfactory plot in terms of problems, solutions, climaxes, anti-climaxes, etc., that concluded neatly enough. Ditto, Caves of Steel (and The Naked Sun, its sequel, for that matter.) ***** SPOILER ******* The plot of FE, the renewed search for the Second Foundation, Second Foundation internal politics of succession, and the search for Earth (without the services of Lorne Green, yet), are so ho-hum, not only in comparison to FT, but to many other s-f works. ROD is a pedestrian logic puzzle, without much interesting happening and with a poorly conceived human-has-sex-with-robot angle thrown in. 3. Finally, the WRITING. Asimov -- and I do love the man, his early works along with Heinlein's and Norton's juveniles were what brought me into the sf field -- has become a literary 800 lb. canary. Nobody will edit him. Nobobdy *has* to. Why should Doubleday bother, when anything he now writes is guaranteed megabucks best-seller? His dialogue has gotten excruciating and much of the narrative is dull and plodding. If you or I had turned in those manuscripts with our names on them, they would have been returned at light-speed, perhaps with a note saying "you have potential, but do join a workshop, okay?" Part of the problem is that Asimov is getting "cuter" with age. Following quotes are from article by Asimov in June, 1985 LOCUS. Commenting on reading the Trilogy in 1981 for the first time in 30 years, "... I marvelled at the fact that though there was virtually no action in them, the world I had created was so real that when I got to the end I was furious at being left hanging...." In my opinion, the worlds created in ROD and FE are *not* as real. Given poorer characterization and less captivating plots.... Next, Asimov got the idea of linking all his novels. "Could it be that the Earthmen finally broke away, initiated a new spurt of colonization in the galaxy, one in which robots were forbidden? Could it be that the new spurt succeeded and that the new colonists somehow replaced the spacers, who then disappeared from history? If so, the universe of my robot novels would give way to the universe of my Empire novels and Foundation series. I couldn't resist the thought. Toward the end of Foundation's Edge, I began to include intimations that that was what happened." Well, folks, I feel it's forced. There's been enough on this net about Niven saying no more Known Space books because of the complications and being backed into a corner. By trying to stretch the Robots to the Empire, I think Asimov had to warp both universes to make them "fit" -- and I liked the originals were better and, without wanting to launch an entire exchange of "How do you judge Art?" postings, I think most people would say they *were* better. By the way here is Asimov's chronology, as he published it. The whole article in LOCUS is good if you haven't seen it. 1. The Complete Robot (short stories) 1982 2. The Caves of Steel (1954) 3. The Naked Sun (1957) 4. The Robots of Dawn (1983) 5. Robots and Empire (1985) [not yet published, could be off schedule] 6. one more transition novel, planned. 7. The Currents of Space (1952) 8. The Stars, Like Dust... (1951) 9. Pebble in the Sky (1950) 10. Prelude to Foundation (planned) 11. Foundation (1951) 12. Foundation and Empire (1952) 13. Second Foundation (1953) 14. Foundation's Edge (1982) 15. Foundation and Earth (in progress) Kind of makes all the current trilogy and multi-ology writers look like pikers. So back to the original. Crud? Compared to the earlier work, definitely. Compared to decent stuff currently published by other writers? I think so. Compared to the average? Maybe not, but the mediocre is pretty mediocre, don't you think? Responses welcome. from the bewildered musings of Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 22 Sep 85 07:32:23 GMT >I would opt for a good collection of short stories by a variety of >authors... If I had to select, though, I would get a Conklin >collection. I would recommend Healy & McComas "Adventures in Time and Space" aka "The Modern Library Giant: Great Science Fiction Stories." Which is a little spotty but has some really good stuff. Even more I recommend "Science Fiction Hall of Fame Vol. I" ed. by Robert Silverberg. They are the two best anthologies of short stories I know. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 11 Sep 85 18:54 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Separating Wheat from Chaff I'm afraid that I tend to head TOWARDS books with intelligent sea mammals, although I can't say much for DAY OF THE DOLPHIN in either book or film form. There have been one or two others that stank. A couple of years ago there was a story in Galaxy called "The Girl and the Dolphin" whose plot I could pretty much guess before I read the story: I was right, but I still kinda liked the story in spite of it. However, I always thought it was too bad that John Meyers (I think that was the last name: it's been a while) (DOLPHIN BOY, DAUGHTERS OF THE DOLPHIN and DESTINY OF THE DOLPHINS) died before he finished the fourth book, so that I'd know what happened after the end of DotD. I certainly enjoyed David Brin's books on the Uplift saga, and hope he writes more. Marina Fournier ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 85 23:43:02 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Being on file >From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) >I think that there is a misconception here. Your species remains >reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do not. >Genetic code only allows somebody to make something that looks sort >of like you, not to remake you. Sorry I didn't make myself clearer. You can keep genetic code on file and that will specify an identical twin, at best. Or you can also keep your mind on file. The latter is much harder, and is independent of the former. Nobody yet has any idea how large the mind is, how to read it, or how to write it into a new brain. I maintain that if that were possible, the newly constructed person would be you, or would at least think that he/she were you. (Interesting plot twists when you have multiple people who are the same person. See for instance Varley's _Ophiuchi_Hotline_. For same mind but different body, see for instace Niven's _World_Out_ Of_Time_.) Please note that we didn't know how to read or write or determine the size of a genetic code 30 years ago. Today, it's almost commonplace. In 30 more years, will the technology of mind reading/writing/copying be well developed? Would that mean that some people alive today will never die? ...Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 85 21:45 MST From: "James J. Lippard" Subject: Re: Matter Transmission/identity on file [Keith Lynch:] >> Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could >> you ever truly die? >> >> Sure. If all the copies get wiped out. Just as books, >>music, and computer data can become irretrievably lost. The >>more copies, and in the more places, the better. Keep one >>in another solar system (it's called supernova insurance). [Mark Leeper:] > I think that there is a misconception here. Your species remains > reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do not. *If* just the genetic code is on file. If all the information about your identity was put on file, you *could* come back. In fact, there could be more than one of you. This is assuming a materialist point of view--if there's a soul which flies away at death then the copy isn't the same. Jim Lippard (Lippard at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 85 16:46:19 edt From: kane@MIT-BORAX.MIT.EDU (Mark K. Culotta) Subject: Transporters Some thoughts inspired by the messages on transporters: In ancient Egypt, it was believed that one did not truly die until all occurences of his name were erased or otherwise destroyed, which is why there are all those huge funerary monuments and buildings. ( I guess that instead of tombstomes in the future one would use a high-density disk drive to mark his/her grave :-) Mark Culotta (kane@borax.mit.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 85 01:27:39 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Matter transmission and duplication To: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU >From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A >i don't care how many ra81's of data you have on me, and i don't >care how good you are at reconstructing me: once i'm dead, i'm >dead. you can make copies of me until you're blue in the face, but >*i*'ll still be dead. > >you can walk into a disintegrator beam and have a copy of you made >on another planet if you want, but i'm fond of this particular copy >of myself. I have heard this attitude before, but I didn't expect to find it amongst computer people, who are supposed to know that all that is important is information. A duplicate isn't satisfactory? Don't you know that the average atom in the body only stays there a few weeks? Only a small percentage of the you of a year ago still exists. I would bet that if you were duplicated, that you (the duplicate) wouldn't notice the difference. Still waiting for a personal backup service... ...Keith ------------------------------ Subject: Bar stories Date: 14 Sep 85 16:16:59 PDT (Sat) From: Dave Godwin A recent note on the bboard brought something to mind. In the old Venus Equilateral stories, by George O. Smith, large sections of some of the stories took place at "Joe's" ( billed as the best bar in 124,000,000 miles ). The engineers would solve problems, get ideas, etc. there. Joe was continually miffed, cuz the guys kept stealing his table clothes so they could run them through the blueprint machines. I remember a scene where the engineers had to figure out the flight path of some object. "OK, look, this ketsup stain is Venus, that coffee stain over there is the Sun, and the cigarette burn here is Earth..." ------------------------------ From: wjvax!ron@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ron Christian) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (and Blasters) Date: 14 Sep 85 00:26:18 GMT >On a related topic, are blasters projectile or energy weapons? Oh, could be either. I remember the 'ammo clip' you describe on one blaster. Either way, the blaster bolts are traveling *way* too slow. One could almost step out of their way! > Also do you remember Darth Vader deflecting a blaster bolt with > his hand in TESB? What kind of armor is he wearing? Also notice > that it didn't stop a light saber! I think that was artistic license: Showing you that ole Darth could deflect blaster bolts by the power of the force. Don't need no light saber anymore. As to why it didn't stop a light saber, well, I always thought that a duel between Jedi's would take place on many levels sort of in parallel. So Luke not only had to physically direct his blow, but also had to mentally defeat Darth's mental deflection of it. Or something. If some ordinary Joe took a lightsaber to Darth, I don't think the blows would be effective. Ron Christian (Watkins-Johnson Co. San Jose, Calif.) {pesnta,twg,ios,qubix,turtlevax,tymix,vecpyr,certes,isi}!wjvax!ron ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off! Date: 15 Sep 85 05:43:12 GMT Am I the only one who has noticed the recent 18.6% price increase in many (most) of the paperback SF books in the stores? Seems the publishers just all of a sudden got (independently, of course) the idea it was time to raise the price from $2.95 to $3.50 I can't imagine any reason for that but greed. (flames explaining how all their costs have edged upward for years will be routed to the bit bucket.) As a collector this bugs me and I feel like sticking my head out the window and shouting the well known litany (from Network). But that would only rile the neighbors, who would call the cops and I'm sure the cops wouldn't give a damn. So, a better strategy is to point out the increase to the sales clerks, suggesting they tell the boss that you have noticed it and will not pay it. Better yet tell the boss herself. Yes, they will look at you as one of the following: a nut. something that just crawled out of a crack in the floor. a comedian. etc. But it shouldn't matter. As long as there are books available at $2.95 we have a chance of nipping this one in the bud. Not much of a chance, but a chance. The new SSR book is $2.95. There are a lot I wont read for $3.50. Tough. Time for Stainless Steel readers. Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Sep 85 1207-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #367 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 367 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Brian Herbert & Hubbard & McKinley & Morris & Niven (2 msgs) & Tolkien & First SF Book, Miscellaneous - Star Wars (2 msgs) & Matter Transmission (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cstvax!br@topaz.rutgers.edu (Brian Ritchie) Subject: WHY read Dhalgren? Date: 18 Sep 85 15:27:04 GMT wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) writes: >I didn't see anywhere where you were saying Dhalgren is twaddle for >reasons A., B., and C., so your claim of 'valid reasons' seemed >unsupported to me. The 'Defenders of Art' and 'Art snobs' at least >offer reasons WHY they think Dhalgren is worth reading. and jayembee said (ages ago): >>>>If someone does not like DHALGREN, the Defenders of Art simply >>>>look down their noses and say, "Well, you obviously were missing >>>>something. If you set your mind to working, you'd certainly see >>>>why it's an exemplary work." ... In all of the discussion of DHALGREN that I have seen (and that I remember - which may be the bigger fact filter :-), people have said things like "I got a lot out of Dhalgren", but I don't recall anyone saying WHAT they got out of it. Now for all I know, that *could* just mean that they get off on spotting obscure mythological references whose prescence depends less upon the `meaning' of a work than on making it look good (and boosting the egos of folk who get off on spotting them...). PLEASE NOTE that this is highly hypothetical and I'm not really that cynical; the point I'm trying to make is that I haven't seen any more concrete support of Dhalgren than "there's a lot in it". So far, I think the `No's have presented a better case, and have generally explained *why* they didn't enjoy Dhalgren (I can't back this up with examples; it's only an impression... if you want to see my idea of a `locally-justified' viewpoint, re-read Harlan's review). So how about someone giving a bit more info on what Dhalgren has that makes reading it worth the effort? Where lies the (disputed) beauty? What points does it make? Is it just its style that makes it enjoyable, or is it trying to *say* something besides just sitting pretty? And so on. You may glean from this that I have never read Dhalgren, and you would be correct. Mayhaps I'm asking too much, being too lazy to read the book and try and find out for myself, but so many other people seem not to have succeeded that I wouldn't mind a few hints to help me first. If I did read it `blind' and got nowhere, I'd never be certain whether it was lack of effort on my part or the book's. Brian. ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Brian Herbert's SIDNEY'S COMET Date: 16 Sep 85 16:02:10 GMT Have just started reading a rather odd book by BRIAN Herbert, Frank Herbert's son. It is called SIDNEY'S COMET, and is a tale of how Earth's garbage and waste, which had been sent into deep space for disposal, was collected and sent back as a comet by the organisms that resented being on the receiving end of this disposal process. A rather strange future society is created for the story environment. Doom and disaster are imminent... Having recently read DOON, the National Lampoon parody of DUNE, I am struck by the sense that this book seems to also be a parody of Frank Herbert's style... Maybe it is not intentional, but it comes across that way. It could be that the son is trying to emulate his father's writing style, but, being new at it, the result seems more like a parody than a tribute. I don't recall seeing any mention of this book on SF-L when it came out (Berkley edition published June 1983). It is intended to be humorous (at least according to the jacket blurbs), but so far (30+ pages), it isn't very funny. Will see if it improves. Any Herbert or Dune collector will have to have a copy of this for completion's sake, of course... By the way, this brings up a topic we could fuss over -- parent-child groupings of SF writers. Anybody know of any other SF writers whose parent(s) were also SF Writers, or who has a child who writes SF professionally? [For that matter, I don't recall hearing much about the children of *any* SF pros. Do Clarke, Heinlein, Zelazny, or most others of the SF "big-names" have any children? (Individually, not all together! :-) If they do, I never heard of them... Most male writers seem to give an impression of bachelorhood, or never mention families, except for wives, in the little autobiographical blurbs or story introductions they write now and then. I don't recall a female SF author discussing family, either. I suppose, though, if such offspring were not writers themselves, but just "ordinary people" -- dentists, accountants, whatever -- there would be no reason for us to have ever heard of them. There is an incentive for children of famous parents to get into other fields, so they won't be shadowed by their parent's reputation, so maybe that makes it unlikely for a writer's offspring to also become writers, I suppose. (Or maybe they really *know* how little it pays, or how frustrating it can be, which steers them away from the field! :-) The only parent-child combination that comes to mind in SF is Fritz Lieber Sr. and Jr., and the Senior was an actor, not a writer...] Regards, Will ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ------------------------------ From: hpda!on@topaz.rutgers.edu (Owen Rowley) Subject: L Ron Hubbard's Roots Date: 13 Sep 85 20:10:28 GMT It is not common Knowledge .......BUT L.Ron Hubbard was involved in the O.T.O. during the 1940's... So what is the OTO you ask... the OTO is the Ordo Templi Orientis, a Magickal Fraternity that claims to be related to a hermetic lineage that stretches back into history at least as far as the Knights Templar and further. In the Early part of this century the OTO was put under the leadership of Aleister Crowley who re-organised it and put it on a course of Magickal discovery that continues to the present moment. L.R.H. was a student and disciple of Jack Parsons who was an American scientist in Southern California, and had formed a Lodge of the OTO Parsons performed Many of the Rituals of the order with LRH as assistant and details of their activities are available,though only to current members of the OTO...(Order activities are generally kept secret from non-members) Parsons was killed in an accidehtal explosion (I beleive he worked at the Jet propulsion Labs, it was Gov work in any case) and L R H faded from the Order.. Those who follow the teachings of the OTO and Aleister Crowley know that Hubbard has based his theories and practises on the foundation of the training he received with Parsons, though it is apparent that his tendency towards science fiction does not end with his Prose. I may be wrong but I think that most present day order members consider LRH a traitor ... Parsons Ex wife and others who participated in OTO activities with LRH are still very much alive and very active but maintain a low profile I don't beleive I have ever seen anything from them concerning LRH or his order activities. (nothing public anyway) Through out history there have been writers who attatch themselves to Occult organisations on the periphery and then run away with bits and snatches of the "Mysteries" only to patch them together in fiction written to thrill the masses. I guess some would call it research.... I call it a pity... Owen Rowley {ucbvax|hplabs}!hpda!on ------------------------------ Date: Sun 15 Sep 85 22:00:55-PDT From: Bart Subject: Beauty by Robin McKinley Those of you who liked _The_Blue_Sword_ by Robin McKinley will be happy to hear that they have just released _Beauty_ in paperback. This is a full length version of the _Beauty_and_the_Beast_ tale. I would recommend either of these books for anyone who likes well written fantasy with a strong female protagonist. Bart Sears%Hp-labs@csnet-relay.arpa hplabs!sears ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!swb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Scott Brim) Subject: what is The Stump really? Date: 15 Sep 85 14:44:28 GMT In "Dream Dancer" by Janet Morris, the first space platform built above the Earth (about a thousand years before the events in the book) is called "The Stump." The origin of the name is "lost in antiquity". This smacks of an idea that has a basis in reality. Is this a nickname for the current space station project? Did it perhaps come from another book? Scott Brim ------------------------------ From: ncoast!bsa@topaz.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Stories where H. sap. gets its come-uppance Date: 14 Sep 85 14:50:04 GMT Miller.pasa@Xerox.ARPA writes: > Now all this makes for interesting reading, and it's bound to be > good for our racial self-image, and it may well be (as I would > like to believe in my more rational moments) that EVERY sentient > species is distinctive enough to warrant having novels written > about it, but just once (deep breath,) I'd like to see a story > written where man gets his come-uppance-- where an alien race > finds us and is bored because we're just like everybody else. How > would THAT affect our collective psyches, I ask you??!!?? > > Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ? Not exactly one, but I remember reading one of Niven's ``bar'' stories wherein a chirpsithra reminisces about having come to Earth millions of years ago to find that the intelligent life was poisoning itself with its output of those deadly chemicals, oxygen and free water. At the end, the bartender is left wondring what the chirpsithra will think of whatever race replaces the humans... I don't remember the story's title or where I read it (or a lot of other things, as I'm sure the Niven fans out there will have noticed by now). Brandon S Allbery, 6504 Chestnut, Independence, OH 44131 +01 216 524 1416 74106,1032 CIS BALLBERY MCIMAIL TELEX 6501617070 ncoast!bsa@Case.CSNET ------------------------------ Date: 16 Sep 85 11:36:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA > The other novel which is out so far in Niven's new universe of the > State is *A World Out of Time* -- which I also found very > enjoyable. As a vision of what might happen on Earth over the > next few *millions* of years, it was fascinating! "The OTHER novel"??? Please somebody tell me, what is the FIRST? _A_World_Out_of_Time_ came out a while back, and I presumed it to be a Known Space work (the first part is taken from an earlier short story...). The long time factor involved could alleviate any and all problems with Known Space continuity. The above message seems to imply that there is at lease one other novel in the State series, could someone supply the title for me....I would be interested in reading it. -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 16 Sep 1985 13:22:55-PDT From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) Subject: Tolkien background information There has been some discussion about J.R.R.Tolkien's background and the origin of his naming scheme in the Lord of the Rings. I would like to point interested readers to a book called The Inklings, by Humphrey Carpenter. The title of the book is taken from a club at Oxford University in England, which Tolkien, C.S.Lewis, and Charles Williams formed to share their work by reading to each other. They often had other guests and writers, and were able to discuss their writing as it developed. I think anyone who has read anything by one of these authors would find the book interesting. Carpenter tells the stories of these three authors with a special sensitivity to their different styles and helps explain what made each of these men write so differently. My copy is published by Houghton Mifflin, 1979. It's good biographical data as well as interesting reading. ------------------------------ From: styx!mcb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 16 Sep 85 05:05:16 GMT I'd feel sort of an obligation to try to break the spaceship/time-travel stereotype. To that end, how about John Varley's THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. This is one of his best works -- perhaps the finest and most moving novella ever written. What's more, it is the title piece in a really first-class collection of SF novelettes and story stories. All the stories are very accessible to casual readers; you don't have to have a background in SF cliches or history. Michael C. Berch mcb@lll-tis-b.ARPA {akgua,allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,dual,ihnp4,sun}!idi!styx!mcb ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Empire Troops Date: 16 Sep 85 02:20:58 GMT michaelm@3comvax.UUCP (Michael McNeil) writes: > Remember the scene in *Star Wars* where the troops are conducting > a house-to-house search of the city, and the robots see them > coming and lock the door? When the troops get to the door, they > knock, then one says, ``This one's locked, go on to the next.'' > It seems a bit odd for a totalitarian state to be stopped by a > locked door.... I always thought that such doors were only supposed to be openable from the outside; if it's locked, no one can be hiding inside. (Except for an R2 droid with a hacker's dream for a limb!) Granted, there's nothing to support this in movie or film. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Blaster aim in STAR WARS Date: 16 Sep 85 02:40:47 GMT There have be numerous comments on lousy blaster aim in the STAR WARS movies. Though it's not mentioned anywhere, there seems to be a pattern - blasters are affected by the Force. First, note that non-living targets are dog meat for blasters. Examples: the sand crawler and the cell block cameras in STAR WARS [a.k.a. A NEW HOPE], the Rebel's power station in TESB. Second, note that, with one exception, *nobody* can squeeze off a single shot and hit a person. Third, consider the exception: when Obi-Wan Kenobi dies in the first movie. (Dear oh dear, I hope I haven't spoiled the movie for anyone.-) In four shots, Luke takes out the controls to the door and three stormtroopers. I submit that in his rage, he's unconsciously using the Force to guide his aim. Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it. Far more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards his (her?) sword. (Boy, does all this seem silly.) Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 21:12 EDT From: don.provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU To: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication look at it this way: you make two copies of yourself. which is you? both? how is your consciousness going to be in both? that seems to make it obvious to me that it would be in neither. information is only good for making copies. for the external observer, the copy might be identical, if we assume that everything that makes me is physical. and, in fact, the copy will serve just as well. but internally, my consiousness will be blown away. the continuity that make me will be blasted. information is only the end all be all for the person using the information, not for the information itself. as i say, feel free to be transmitted to mars, but you ain't getting me up in one of them things. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 21:17 EDT From: don.provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU To: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication yes, the duplicate might not notice the difference. it's the original i'm worried about. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Sep 85 1243-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #368 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 368 Today's Topics: Books - Kilian & MacAvoy & Tolkien & First SF Books & Typos, Music - Children of the Sun (2 msgs) & After the Gold Rush (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Star Wars & Time Travel & Bar Stories & Matter Transmission (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian Date: 17 Sep 85 17:15:51 GMT THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian Del Rey, 1978 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Jerry Pierce, crack agent for the Intertemporal Agency, goes back in time to find out why an enormous disaster stuck Earth in the future. He meets an African Bushman named Anita !Kosi (who has some not very secret powers). They mention all sort of paradoxes without resolving or explaining any of them. Like, if someone gives William Blake a copy of his collected works published in 1980 before he's written most of them, does he actually bother to write them? If he doesn't, do they vanish? Kilian farbles around this by having these be either alternate worlds or our world, only earlier in time, depending on which suits his need. Disappointing. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE BOOK OF KELLS by R. A. MacAvoy Date: 17 Sep 85 17:14:13 GMT THE BOOK OF KELLS by R. A. MacAvoy Bantam, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper John Thornburn, through Celtic music and artwork, opens a portal back to Tenth Century Ireland. A young woman of that time, Ailesh, comes through, fleeing from Viking raiders. John and she return, along with Derval O'Keane, a friend of John's who just happens to be studying Celtic history, literature, language, etc. What you start out with is an old standby of a science fiction premise (time travel); what you end up with is basically an historical adventure novel. After MacAvoy's first four novels, I was really looking forward to this one. Though it's competent, it doesn't have the magic touch that her earlier works did. I can't say that I strongly recommend it. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 85 00:57:10 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Inklings and Tolkien. "Tolkien's friends amoung his Oxford colleagues centered about C. S. Lewis and made up a circle, which included W. H. Lewis (his brother); the writer Charles Williams, whose several fine novels on occult and mystical subjects are (I feel, unfortunately) better known to American readers than his two fascinating volumes of Arthurian verse; and number of other congenial souls, including John Wain, Roy Campbell, and David Cecil. They made up an informal group calling themselves the Inklings, and gathered in C. S. Lewis' rooms at Magdalen College ever Thursday evening after dinner." -- first paragraph chapter two of "Tolkien: A Look Behind the Lord of the Rings" by Lin Carter No, no. I am not going to type the whole book in. (It would among other things be violating the copyright laws and tempting the fates with a massive display of hubris about my bad typing.) Steve Z. ------------------------------ From: dspo!fu@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Good First SF stories Date: 16 Sep 85 21:24:20 GMT I had an English teacher who felt that no great English literature had been written since the time of Milton. She didn't mean that nothing worth reading had been written, just nothing exceptionally good. Her opinion of science fiction was extremely low. I asked her to read "Mortal Gods" which was a 3 page short story by Orson Scott Card, and her reaction was quite favorable. I think that for those who have poor opinions of the quality of SF, Card is a very good writer. -Castor Fu ihnp4!lanl!dspo!fu ------------------------------ Date: Tue 17 Sep 85 00:55:04-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: A real lulu of a typo... Has anyone noticed the a certain new publication from Bluejay books? It is one of those expensive 'trade' paperbacks, with wide margins, large type, and profuse (poor) illustrations. I have not named the author and title as these are indeterminate. The front cover claims it to be "Rogue Queen" by "L. Spraque de Camp". The edge of the binding, on the other hand, declares it to be "Rouge Queen" by the same mysterious and hitherto unknown author. Opening it, you find that while the title 'Rogue Queen' seems to be intended, the book was allegedly written by our old friend L. Sprague deCamp. We are all aware that the standards of spelling and proofreading have declined dramatically over the last decade or so, but this is the most blatant example I have yet seen. When I saw this in the bookstore edge-on, I seriously thought for a moment that Rouge Queen was the title! If I were Mr. DeCamp, I would be VERY upset with Bluejay. Can anyone think of another cover typo so careless? This is definitely the worst I have ever seen. Peter oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 20:42 EDT From: "James J. Lippard" Subject: Children of the Sun No, I think the original poster was referring to "Children of the Sun" (from the album of the same name) by Billy Thorpe. ------------------------------ Date: Mon 16 Sep 85 21:52:12-PDT From: Jeff Soesbe Subject: "Children of the Sun" actually, there IS a song called "Children of the Sun", and it's by BIlly Thorpe...it appeared on some album of his about 5-6 years ago, but I don't remember the title, or the lyrics...will try to dredge up this info.. is anyone else reminded of "Childhood's End" when they hear "After the Gold Rush"??? oh well... jeff ------------------------------ From: ukc!jmh@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Hague) Subject: Re: SF Music -- After The Gold Rush Date: 16 Sep 85 17:29:01 GMT jam@dcl-cs.UUCP (John A. Mariani) writes: >maxwell%speedy.DEC@decwrl.ARPA writes: >>Back in V 10 #277 (July), druxo!knf@topaz.arpa mentions a song >>"Children of the Sun", which I believe is actually a reference to >>the song "After the Gold Rush", on an album by a group called (I >>think) Gold Rush. > > Let me join the throngs with a point of information. This album is > by Neil Young .. he of CSN&Y. If memory serves, the group who had a hitette with this is in the UK were called 'Prelude'. Good tune, innit ? Jim Hague UUCP: ..!mcvax!ukc!jmh Tel: +44 227 66822 x7697 TG: 72:MAG10135 +44 227 454993 ------------------------------ From: gypsy!emery@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: SF Music Date: 16 Sep 85 14:14:00 GMT It just happens that a song with the same name, music and lyrics is the title track of Neil Young's "After the Gold Rush". (Neil wrote it...) However, I much prefer the a cappella version. I remember when it came out, it almost became a hit. Dave Emery Siemens Research ..princeton!siemens!emery ------------------------------ From: iitcs!draughn@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark Draughn) Subject: Re: Blaster aim in STAR WARS Date: 16 Sep 85 06:15:16 GMT psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes: >There have be numerous comments on lousy blaster aim in the STAR >WARS movies. Though it's not mentioned anywhere, there seems to be >a pattern - blasters are affected by the Force. I'll buy this. It even seems to extend to the guns on the fighters. Luke's fighter consistently takes hit after hit without major damage (i.e. it still flies and still has life support) nearly all other fighters blow up when hit. >First, note that non-living targets are dog meat for blasters. >Examples: the sand crawler and the cell block cameras in STAR WARS >[a.k.a. A NEW HOPE], the Rebel's power station in TESB. Second, >note that, with one exception, *nobody* can squeeze off a single >shot and hit a person. This is nothing new. Police reports of gun battles show that most bullets miss their intended targets. There are two basic reasons for this. First, stress interferes with performance and even someone with years of training can't hit a damned thing. Second, self preservation. If there are thirty-five cops around, no single cop is likely to risk getting shot by exposing himself long enough to get in a careful shot. (This is worse in wars, where soldiers often stay in fox holes, firing blindly by holding the rifle above their heads. The bullets-per-kill ratios can run into the thousands.) The same effect probably occurs with blasters. (Although, the stormtroopers seem to just stand and fire, and they get mowed down accordingly.) >Third, consider the exception: when Obi-Wan Kenobi dies in the >first movie. (Dear oh dear, I hope I haven't spoiled the movie for >anyone.-) In four shots, Luke takes out the controls to the door >and three stormtroopers. I submit that in his rage, he's >unconsciously using the Force to guide his aim. Could be. Also, luke knows that his shots will make a big difference in his escape. He therefore takes the time to shoot properly. The stormtroopers are, of course, still shooting wildly. >Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi >knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it. Far >more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards his >(her?) sword. Note that not only is Vader protected from Han's blaster fire, but his glove isn't singed either. This implies that a Jedi can extend the Force easily into objects that he is touching. This explains the Jedi's preference for light sabers. Blaster fire is easily deflected, even if fired by a Jedi, it cannot be controlled reliably when aimed at another Jedi. But a Light Saber is an intimate, personal weapon. A Jedi carries it always and becomes one with it. It is one thing to deflect an opponent's oncoming blaster bolts. It is quite another to deflect a Light Saber infused with your opponent's Force. Except with one's own Light Saber. Mark T. Draughn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 85 10:00:40 edt From: John McLean Subject: November 5 Cc: decvax\!hplabs\!oliveb\!oliven\!martin@nrl-css.arpa Martin Hall asked about the importance of November 5th in time travel literature. A likely possibility for English writers since November 5th is Guy Fawkes' Day. It would be interesting to wonder what would have happened if Fawkes had succeeded in blowing up the House of Parliament. John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 85 12:34:41 EDT From: Ron Singleton Subject: Bar Stories Chris Miler asks: "Why do we think any other species would be interested in a bar?" The immediate response from my (sometimes malfunctioning) synapses is: Given most sorts of advanced society structure folks (species, if you wish) will have *some form* of informal social gathering spot where they can discuss (and complain about) their day (or second, or year, depending on lifespan and/or how long since they've had the chance to perform this 'ritual'). Writing primarily from the human viewpoint and quite often using human-dominated situations, the 'bar' environment is a natural. A social club, church or family/clan gathering are others, and I suppose they have each been used. Ron Singleton ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!nessus@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doug Alan) Subject: Is it live or is it Memorex? Date: 16 Sep 85 10:53:27 GMT > From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A > i don't care how many ra81's of data you have on me, and i don't > care how good you are at reconstructing me: once i'm dead, i'm > dead. you can make copies of me until you're blue in the face, > but *i*'ll still be dead. But for all you know, every time you go to sleep, someone could be killing you and then replacing you with a copy of you, and you'd *never* notice the difference! So what difference does it make? None at all! Doug Alan nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (or ARPA) ------------------------------ From: sdcsvax!davidson@topaz.rutgers.edu (Greg Davidson) Subject: Re: matter transmission and duplication Date: 13 Sep 85 09:25:13 GMT People who won't accept a perfect duplicate of themselves as a substitute for their continuity in their original body may be idealizing the continuity of their body and personality over time, both of which are only approximate. They may also have some unexamined mystical concepts of self. Let's do a thought experiment and find out. How do you know that your personality DOESN'T die every night, and get recreated imperfectly from backups in the morning? Imagine this were really the case; say it had just been discovered, and you read it this morning in Science magazine. Would it matter? Would you avoid going to sleep, since it WAS death to do so? I can't see as how it would make ANY difference, so why should I object to a perfect copy replacing me? As long as the change over were done gracefully. Greg Davidson Virtual Infinity Systems, San Diego ------------------------------ From: ukc!msp@topaz.rutgers.edu (M.S.Parsons) Subject: Re: Transporters (Really: life after death) Date: 16 Sep 85 15:08:36 GMT >From: kane@MIT-BORAX.MIT.EDU (Mark K. Culotta) >In ancient Egypt, it was believed that one did not truly die until >all occurences of his name were erased or otherwise destroyed ... A thought - Maybe you don't really die until all the people who knew you also die? You live on in memories..... (A person's internal model of you is still active; If you were close, the internal model will be quite detailed, he/she would have understood something of how your mind worked.) ------------------------------ From: utastro!ethan@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication Date: 17 Sep 85 17:12:28 GMT > From: don.provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU > look at it this way: you make two copies of yourself. which is > you? both? how is your consciousness going to be in both? that > seems to make it obvious to me that it would be in neither. > information is only good for making copies. for the external > observer, the copy might be identical, if we assume that > everything that makes me is physical. and, in fact, the copy will > serve just as well. but internally, my consiousness will be blown > away. the continuity that make me will be blasted. On the other hand, each of the copies will have the precise sensation of continuity whose loss you fear. As far as they are concerned nothing happened. Which brings us to the question, what exactly do you mean by "the continuity that makes me"? To the outside observer it's just not obvious that that has any meaning. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.UTEXAS.EDU Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Sep 85 1325-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #369 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 369 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Critics (7 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Art and good reads Date: 12 Sep 85 20:16:49 EDT (Thu) From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA Hmm, wading through the last couple of week's worth of SF-Lovers, I come across Steve Brust claiming that, to be a great book, something must also be a good read. I guess I'd have to agree with this, in a perverse sort of way. An analogy which comes to mind is Rubik's Cube versus Tic-tac-toe: a very hard, but ultimately very satisfying, puzzle vs. a trivial and boring game. Which would you rather spend your time with? I think the Cube is satisfying and fun precisely because it is hard, and Tic-tac-toe is boring precisely because it is trivial. Ulysses is a GREAT read! There's a giggle on just about every page of Ulysses. Every chapter is written in a Brand New Way Of Writing (one chapter even goes so far as to recapitulate the history of English literature: from Beowulf through Cicero to Chaucer to Joyce's contemporaries, when I figured out what he was up to in that chapter I laughed out loud). Dhalgren was a great read, too. Like eating a robust, healthy meal. Now a book I found REALLY HARD (and ultimately failed) to get through was the one of EE ``Doc'' Smith's Lensman books. Like eating soggy Captain Crunch. After a while you get nauseous. ------------------------------ Date: Fri 13 Sep 85 13:13:34-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #358 nMore counterexamples to the idea that SF is stylistically flat: almost all the works of Cordwainer Smith, especially _Norstrilia_. Bard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 85 18:34 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: The Literature of Ideas To: baylor!peter@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU (Peter da Silva) >[responding to Charley Wingate, Peter da Silva writes:] Item: >Leguin and the other authors you mentioned with her are outside the >domain of SF. So, I think, are the other authors you mentioned. One >must distinguish between SF and literature with an SF background. >Stephen King writes plenty of the latter, but I don't believe he >has provided one new theme. You don't think Le Guin writes SF? Or Fred Pohl (one of the "other authors" Charley Wingate mentioned)? You must have a very narrow view of what "SF" means, and I don't think this perception is shared by most readers of "SF." I also don't understand your distinction between "SF" and "literature with an SF background." Citing Stephen King is little help as (1) I've never read anything by him, and (2) I was under the impression that he mostly wrote "horror" stuff. To me, "SF" means what we point to and say "that's SF." (Does anyone out there know who came up with that definition? I'm sure I read it somewhere...) It's not a very satisfactory definition, but anything excludes works that are "clearly" SF and/or includes works that equally "clearly" aren't. Anyway, certainly LeGuin's _The Lathe of Heaven_ and Pohl's _Gateway_ are SF. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Art Date: 12 Sep 85 15:33:18 GMT Do I want to get into the Art discussion? Oh, what the heck... One of the most succinct definitions of Art I have ever heard was the title of a book (sorry, I don't know the author): "Art is forgetting the name of what you are looking at". (Mumbles from the audience: what the hell does that MEAN?) Art is something that opens your eyes (and ears and mind) so that you experience something new. Taking a simple example from the visual arts, think of a drawing of, say, a tree. There are drawings on which you might comment, "Oh yeah, nice tree." Then there are the drawings that make you look and SEE; instead of just thinking "tree" and that's the end of it, you see what is actually in the picture: things like bark texture, the effect of wind, the effect of sunlight, and on and on. The situation is even clearer if we talk of photographs. A million people have taken pictures of that gnarled tree on the rocky butte in Yosemite...but when Ansel Adams takes the same picture, we SEE it without our brains kicking in the handy cut-off valve. The art in writing works the same way. It gives us something that is not shrugged off by our mental reflexes. It makes us see something with a BEGINNER'S EYE. And to do this, the writer/artist must also have the Beginner's Eye. This is why repackaged hash doesn't appeal to anyone. This is why certain books (which may not be that good in any broadly accepted sense) can open our eyes if they hit us at the right time (when they give us something we haven't seen before, that old "sense of wonder"). This gives us both a subjective and relatively objective way to evaluate what literature does for us. From any individual's point of view, the books (and Art) he or she can appreciate are those that induce a beginner's eye view, so that we see and experience things in a fresh way instead of shuffling along with reflexive reactions. There's no way to predict which books are going to work this way for a person -- what a particular book manages to give you depends on who you are, current events in your life, what you have read before, and so on. People who have never read Tolkien before can get excited about pale Tolkien clones that would bore someone who has read the real thing. That's the subjective part. On the objective side, there are authors and books that can provide new and valuable experiences for practically anyone. It doesn't matter what you've read before, it doesn't matter what is currently influencing your life, it doesn't matter what you have or haven't experienced. Such authors and books are _alive_ and _awake_, and anyone coming to them with an open mind can have his or her eyes opened. They may not be easy to read: the material could be too intense; the prose may be complex; the structure of the work may be unorthodox. A good read does not mean an easy read, any more than a good physical work-out means an easy one. But after reading and after working out, we can sometimes feel that we have broken out of the mundane and got hold of something more real and solid than everyday blase life. for everyone because they are intrinsically unique. There is no guarantee that someone will like one of the intrinsically fresh books...which is nothing to sneer at, because people are not obligated to subject themselves to experience things they don't want. At the same time, it's understandable for you to be exasperated when others don't appreciate books that really opened your own eyes. All this means is that I think there is a way to talk about what Art should be and can be, that Art is more an experience than a thing, and that the experience can be obtained in unpredictable places, even though there are some works that have more universal potential. (Have I straddled every fence yet?) Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: critics (Long!!) What is art? Date: 12 Sep 85 14:09:01 GMT > For me, great art should have both style and structure and the two > should complement each other. Experiments with style may be fun > for the author and interesting for the literate but without a > complementing structure, the result is unlikely to be great art. This is, I think, the essence. Given a story to tell, or a theme to explore, a writer may choose from an infinite number of structures that will handle it. Only one, in any given case, is the best. While form and content (terms I'm more comfortable with) may be discussed separately, content determines form. It is the interaction (and, frequently, the conflict) between them that allows knowledge to develop. And as for what is art, try this for part of the definition: the process of exposing the underlying contradictions that are hidden in mundane life through crafting a work that is esthetically (sp?) pleasing. -- SKZB ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: Art and Entertainment Date: 16 Sep 85 02:14:13 GMT > From: marotta%lezah.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (MARY MAROTTA) > Artistic license doesn't mean that the artist can do any anything > she wants. The author of a novel must convey some emotions and/or > ideas to the reader. Sometimes these are revealed through a plot > structure that depends on chronological occurrences. Since this > is a controlled, familiar environment, this device is effective > for the general reader. But a novel can be based on impressions, > sensations, and philosophical beliefs. Take William Faulkner, or > Samuel Delaney. . . . (Please.-) (smiley face with wink) > No clear plot. No logical cause-effect occurrences to provide the > reader with the sensation of movement, change, and action. . . . No story. (See below.) > Instead, these authors require you to read differently, to assess > the impact of each sentence, each thought, at an emotional and > associative level. Similar to a painting by Picasso, Dahlgren > asks you to accept the artist's style as the most effective way to > convey impressions and sensations. If you can associate the > elements in a Picasso painting with your own view of life, if you > can understand why all the elements are collected onto one canvas, > and if you had some reaction to the painting, then you appreciate > Picasso as an artist, his painting as a work of art. below: But it's the forest that's grand, as pretty as the trees are. Picasso didn't do brush strokes, he did *pictures*, and it's the pictures that are the art. Similarly, *fiction* is the telling of *stories*. I don't demand a beginning, a middle, and an end (at least, not necessarily in that order). But a story is different that an incident, a characterization, or a description. You can have prose that is just one of those three, just as you can have a poem that doesn't tell a story. I maintain that such is less entertaining, and in some important sense, falls short even as Art. > It is far easier to read a Fantasy novel than Sound and Fury, but > you will find that the discipline of reading William Faulkner is > rewarded by a greater appreciation for the power of the written > word. I agree with you there. I read the first of Delany's Neveryon books, and the primary feeling I got out of it was pride that I finished it. I'm not sure what that says about about the story. Maybe that the writing was worthwhile, but the story wasn't worth the effort. > When can a novel be judged as A Work of Art? The requirements are > clear: the author must use skill, knowledge, and creativity in > producing the novel. The first novel by an author does not > necessarily reveal the author's control over his craft, though it > can indicate the level of creativity that the author is able to > convey in writing. Bush. (As in 'bu--sh--'.) A first novel reveals an author's control over his or her craft at that point in his or her career. Books are static (except in individual's appreciation); writers grow. You seem to be saying that *writers*, not *writing*, should be categorized as Artistic or not. Even given that such pigeonholing is reasonable (reviews can point out good reads for readers who only read Art?), no writer is perfect. Not even in selecting what should go out in the mail, rather than in the trash. > To judge each book as a Work of Art is to limit the power of the > Science Fiction genre, by creating a standard for authors to > follow. Since Science Fiction and Fantasy depend on innovation as > well as effective technique, they can only suffer by attempting to > conform to the standards imposed by the readership. Better to > judge a book for its own merits, an author for her unique skills, > and be aware of artistic attempts that fail. Not all Art is good, > but all good novels are artistic. I submit that this is true of all writing, from the worst articles in Byte to Hemingway and/or Falkner. The existence of "good reads" doesn't detract from the quality of Art. One can bemoan the unwashed public's choice of entertainment over Art; however, in the absence of official Art Recognizers (local #345 of the Teamsters, no doubt), tomorrow's Art will come from today's "Entertainment". Considering the wealth and variety of today's Art, that seems to work out. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 85 02:01:45 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: "Artsy" books ... "Artsy" things can be a problem, especially in books; so many of them fail. When they fail, they come across so hopelessly self-conscious and pretentious that they can be almost painful to read. (and 90% of them will probably be failures, remember Sturgeon's law) The problem seems to me to be that a great deal of the "artsy" books are written by lesser writers. Sometimes lesser because they haven't served their "apprenticeship" and learned their craft or thye just don't have the talent; yet they decide to storm the literary world and prove their "worth" by doing their "artsy" magnum opus which will prove that they are the new James Joyce, or William Shakespeare, or . Have set off with great and ponderous deliberation they just keep rolling down hill spewing out words (much like this sentence) without knowing where to stop. All of this is not to say that there are no good "artsy" books or stories, I am not truly literate enough to pass that kind of judgement. Rather, in my somewhat rambling opinion, I mean to say that the good ones are swamped by the bad ones. The truly great produce great works naturally, they don't set out (usually) to produce the "ultimate" book or to prove themselves to be the equal of whoever, they just do it; or if they do set out on such a course, sheer talent carries them until they're past the foolishness (usually). It is not the intention of producing a work of art that motivates them, it is the work of art itself calling out, demanding, to be born. To me, this is why the hack "artsy" works hurt so much to read. It is also why I am willing to read books like Gene Wolfe's works or Stephen Donaldson's (if he would just learn the craft that goes with his talent and cut out the purple portions) or Edgar Pangborn's; these works are important and they shine even when you don't understand all of what they are saying (and I never have, but they are so beautiful to read). Even the failed experiments by the really talented are worth something for what they can show us of the talent itself or of its limits. I suppose, I shall have to read Dahlgren now and find out what I think of it. And if I really can stand by what I've just said. Steve Z. p.s. A few digests back, someone made a comment about Delany insisting on Dahlgren going out unedited. I found that interesting because I had heard (several years ago) rumors that Dahlgren had suffered from massive editing that was supposed to have hurt the book. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 85 0912-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #370 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 370 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Hogan & Some Reviews & First SF (2 msgs) Miscellaneous - Life Imitates D&D & Star Wars (2 msgs) & Scientology & Price Increase & Matter Transmission (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: water!bahilchie@topaz.rutgers.edu (Brian Hilchie) Subject: Re: Separating wheat from chaff Date: 9 Sep 85 16:42:40 GMT > Negative Indicators > 6. If book involves intelligent sea mammals. > (Especially dolphins!) I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who didn't like Startide Rising. Can't figure out why it won the Hugo and Nebula. If this was the best of the year it must have been a very bad year. Brian Hilchie {decvax,utzoo,ihnp4,allegra,clyde}!watmath!water!bahilchie ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan Date: 17 Sep 85 17:17:18 GMT THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan Del Rey, 1983 A book review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: This is generally a good science fiction novel that does some interesting things to make a fantasy tale hard science fiction. Unfortunately, the trappings of this novel are much more enjoyable than the actual fantasy story itself. It is exquisite frosting on a rather bland cake. Generally, if fantasy and science fiction are combined in a story, I would call the net result fantasy. You cannot put ghosts or werewolves into a science fiction story and have science fiction when you are done. I do make the exception that if you can give a reasonable scientific explanation for the fantasy elements it will make them science fiction. THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER is apparently James P. Hogan's effort to write a WARLOCK IN SPITE OF HIMSELF-style fantasy and make it science fiction. Like WARLOCK, it is about humans coming to a medieval society gone bad and fixing it up--STAR TREK's prime directive be damned. Hogan's set-up for creating a new race at the medieval stage is to describe how the robotics equivalent of genetics and evolution could come about unintentionally. It's not the easiest way to create an alien race in a story, but it is the novel's finest hour. It is really intriguing reading and, frankly, the kind of idea I read science fiction for and all too rarely actually find. Also interesting is the main character. By profession he is a mass- media-psychic and charleton of the Uri Geller variety. In the early parts of the novel you see how Zambendorf is able to hoodwink audiences in creative ways. That also makes for intriguing reading but what is even more intriguing is the question: if we discovered intelligent robotic aliens in our solar system, why would anyone want to use devious means to get a Uri Geller to the first contact? Particularly if those people are convinced that the psychic is a fraud. When you do find out, it does make sense, but that puzzle certainly kept me anxious. So Hogan creates an interesting character and an intriguing mystery surrounding the character. And his background description for how the robot race came into existence is first-class science fiction writing. Unfortunately they all go together to make a sort of second-rate fantasy story reminiscent of some of the cute plot tricks pulled in certain third season STAR TREK episodes. I'd give this novel a +2 (on the -4 to +4 scale), but much more for the first 200 pages than for the last. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Second Helpings (Book Reviews) Date: 17 Sep 85 17:17:58 GMT Second Helpings Book reviews by Mark R. Leeper Each of these books is from a series that I have reviewed at some point in the past. All the things I said before still apply to the series as a whole; I am reviewing only one entry in each series: BOOKS OF BLOOD I by Clive Barker Sphere, 1984 I read the three books of this collection in reverse order. Three more volumes have been published and sit on my shelf; I'll review them eventually. Of the first three volumes, this is the best, and the best story in the volume is "Midnight Meat-Train," about a Jew from Atlanta living in New York and getting involved in a string of serial murders on the subways. "The Yattering and Jack" is a whimsical tale of a demon having problems frightening a man. A cut lower are "Pig Blood Blues," "In the Hills, the Cities," and especially "Sex, Death, and Starshine." The last spends 36 pages on a story with only an okay idea. All the stories in the series are bound together by the framing story "Book of Blood," not much of a story in itself (framing stories rarely are). Barker is my idea of a really creative horror writer. New James Bond Series: ROLE OF HONOR by John Gardner Berkley, 1985 This series is by a distinguished British author slumming, continuing the adventures of Fleming's unflappable hero. In ROLE OF HONOR, Bond is fighting a super-plot by a computer genius. The book in fact, plays a little subtle trick on people who are computer-literate. The entire book is leading up to a master caper called "The Balloon Game," the nature of which is revealed only in the final chapters. I would quibble with Gardner in that it seems that the results of the Balloon Game could be undone in minutes, but if the book had made that impossible, the Balloon Game would have been a clever idea. It is a pity that Bond is always playing for such high stakes. A cryptanalysis decoder is plenty high stakes in FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE. The films and this book seem to imply that a Bond story is not effective unless Bond is saving the entire Free World. VALLEY OF THE FAR SIDE by Gary Larson Andrews, McMeel & Parker, 1985 Larson is starting to lose his touch. A good three-quarters of the cartoons in this book are not hilarious. Most of those are only very funny. My favorite of the lot betrays my own prejudices: "French Mammoth" shows a caveman giving a prehistoric mammoth an absurd poodle haircut. The great indignities are timeless. 200 "Far Side" cartoons pack a lot of ideas and a lot of humor in a compact space. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: utflis!chai@topaz.rutgers.edu (Henry Chai) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 8 Sep 85 18:10:08 GMT Why not a book of short stories ?? In this way one can be exposed to different authors, diverse styles, etc. I don't have one to recommend, though. By the way, MY first SF book was indeed a collection of short stories. It was a compulsory reader during my Form 2 year (= grade 8) in Hong Kong. I remembered that it's got stories by Bradbury(sp?), Clarke and Asimov. Henry Chai Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: First SF Book Date: 16 Sep 85 13:42:21 GMT > I know there are some good intrductory novels, and some of the > suggestions I have seen I agree with, but I think it is more > important to know both the person and the novel equally well > rather than blindly taking someone's suggestion. I agree wholeheartedly. I have loaned books to people that love lots of magic in their books so I would pick something like Magician. Others read so slowly they get scared by trilogies so I pull out something like Songmaster. Frequently only a small percentage of SF/Fantasy will interest some people and you try to match that part given what they read now. Other people will like a large spectrum of the genre and if you give them a good book will get hooked. David Albrecht ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 85 00:53:50 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Life imitates D&D ... The most recent issue of Time carried a simplified picture of the computer model recent built for one of the cold viruses. It looks an awful lot like a D-20. Now you can justify all that D&D gaming as "Studies in Viral Assault Techniques on the Human System". Ever wonder why some people NEVER get colds and some people have them ALL the time? Clearly it all has to do with saving throws and luck! The viral party decides to attack your cells, so it rolls itself to determine its attack (it always has surprise so it gets the first attack in). Then your cells either all make their saving throws or you get an infection of some degree. Think of the new vistas of gaming that this opens up ... "Fantastic Voyage: the D&D Edition". (feel free to develop this property, I want a mere 10% cut for coming up with the idea) DMs just think of all the new and unusual monsters: "Alright players, now you've done it, you're in the midst of a swarm of strange creatures; more of them are floating down the oddly round shaped hallway towards you. As you observe them, the larger white ones begin to flow over some of the party members. The red ones seem to ignore you, they seem to be brainlessly purposeful, both shades of them. Others, smaller than the white ones begin to clump up around others of you and fasten characters to the floor/walls/ceiling/each other. Some seem to be trying to nuzzle up to you, or your weapons at any rate. A large creature, somewhat like a lumpy, ridged D-20 floats past and latches onto the cleric (he has very few HP left) who immediately develops a horrible hacking cough and visciously runny nose..." Steve Z. ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Blaster bolts and the Force Date: 16 Sep 85 21:13:53 GMT All this about blaster bolts, and how a Jedi Knight can deflect them when I used to study Budo seriously, I spent a lot of time practicing with wooden swords. I noticed a couple of odd things: 1) Sometimes the damn' sword would zip over without me noticing what it/I was doing -- usually when this happened I would either hit the other guy, and he would say ``Where'd that come from'' or else it would intercept a hit that I had never seen. 2) After a certain amount of time practicing, I would notice in some drills that the swords were almost magnetic: they wanted to hit together, usually in the same spot each time. Clearly, lightsabers have at least as much smarts as a red-oak bokken, and take care of it themselves. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons) Date: 14 Sep 85 18:04:29 GMT The idea of all the stormtroppers being clones of Obi Wan presents two difficulties: 1) we clearly see in the deathstar docking bay that the troopers, when lined up, are not all the same height. I suppose the clones could have been raised on worlds with different gravities, but ... q2) Han and Luke mug two stormtroopers and steal their uniforms. Surely they would have noticed if a) the two storm troopers were identical and b) that both storm troopers looked like Obi Wan. RJS ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Scientologists? Date: 4 Sep 85 13:14:04 GMT Postings on scientology are wholly appropriate to the science fiction net, as anyone aware of both that religions history and the history of sf is aware. Fact: scientology was created by a then-big-name SF writer. Fact: it was promoted through the editorial content of Astounding, the magazine we know today as Analog. Fact: almost all its early proponents were SF writers, including such notables as A. E. van Vogt and Donald Kingsbury (who has since been excommunicated). Fact: scientological themes run through the SF of those early days (SLAN is an example). Fact: Hubbard is using the Scientology organization to promote his SF, including his novels and a new magazine. Fact: Authors Services is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Church of Scientology with the sole mandate to promote Hubbard's own science fiction. Fact: Authors Services seriously considered having Scientologists stuff the ballot box for the Hugo. Informed discussion is not bigotry, and you do the readers of the net and yourself a grave injury by so freely tossing around a loaded term. RJS ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off! Date: 16 Sep 85 12:54:25 GMT If you're really serious about complaining about rising book prices, a letter to the publisher is probably more effective than complaining to the befuddled sales clerk at your local B. Dalton. rjs ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Matter Transmission/identity on file Date: 24 Sep 85 05:33:18 GMT >From: "James J. Lippard" >[Keith Lynch:] >>> Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could >>> you ever truly die? >>> >>> Sure. If all the copies get wiped out. Just as books, >>>music, and computer data can become irretrievably lost. The >>>more copies, and in the more places, the better. Keep one >>>in another solar system (it's called supernova insurance). > >[Mark Leeper:] >> I think that there is a misconception here. Your species remains >> reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do >> not. > >*If* just the genetic code is on file. If all the information >about your identity was put on file, you *could* come back. In >fact, there could be more than one of you. This is assuming a >materialist point of view--if there's a soul which flies away at >death then the copy isn't the same. OK, so there is more of you on file than just your genetic code. Then a new copy is made. I think the point still is valid. As far as the world is concerned you are alive, but that is an illusion. You are dead. There just is a perfect copy around that thinks it is you. The fact that two or three of these things can be made is the clincher. They can't all be the original. Take my word for it, if you are destroyed and replaced by an exact copy with your mind, you are dead. The exact copy is only that. I know. It happens to me every night. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: wateng!clelau@topaz.rutgers.edu (Eric C.L. Lau) Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication Date: 17 Sep 85 03:05:51 GMT KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA writes: >> i don't care how many ra81's of data you have on me, and i don't >> care how good you are at reconstructing me: once i'm dead, i'm >> dead. you can make copies of me until you're blue in the face, >> but *i*'ll still be dead. > > A duplicate isn't satisfactory? Don't you know that the average >atom in the body only stays there a few weeks? Only a small >percentage of the you of a year ago still exists. > I would bet that if you were duplicated, that you (the duplicate) >wouldn't notice the difference. I guess this question comes down to whether *I* am more than a bunch of atoms, i.e. the existence of a soul. Of course, that leaves another good question: if you tranmit all my atoms elsewhere, where does that leave my soul(assuming one exists)? But if you don't believe that souls exist, then transmit away. Eric Lau ...!ihnp4!watmath!wateng!clelau P.S. Please don't start a theological argument over this. Leave that in net.religion. My brain was just running over onto my keyboard. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 85 0932-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #371 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 371 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Critics (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Sep 85 11:48:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA A couple of questions for Peter da Silva: > Item: Leguin and the other authors you mentioned with her are > outside the domain of SF. So, I think, are the other authors you > mentioned. One must distinguish between SF and literature with an > SF background. Stephen King writes plenty of the latter, but I > don't believe he has provided one new theme. Are "new themes" required for something to be considered to be science fiction? (Personally I feel that Stephen King writes horror/suspense genre books, possibly with some science background (see _Firestarter_). But that categorization is based on reading the books, not on some notion that there are no new themes introduced......) > Item: Most of Clarke's writings, and now Bob Forward's, are pretty > bad literature, but they succeed by fulfilling the other and I > believe more important goal of being great SF. It is possible to > write great SF by concentrating on the SF aspect. It is not > possible to do so by concentrating on the literature. See, for > example, the works of Stephen King. Why do you consider Forward's & Clarke's books "bad literature". I agree that they are good SF, presenting nifty new things to consider, and so forth.....but why are they bad literature? (Perhaps this question should be referred to the Great Art Debate, and is only a matter of personal opinion....but I would be interested to know why YOU consider them to be bad literature...) -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Re: critics Date: 16 Sep 85 11:51:26 GMT chen@mitre-gateway.arpa writes: > [quotes me here:] >>Do you mean that if a large no. of people can't understand it, it >>can't be great art? And if you have to work to understand it, >>ditto? > >Judith and others, > >Basically, a classic piece of literature should be able to be >read at many different levels. It should be like an onion with >many different layers (but no bad spots). You should be >able to read it for fun and enjoy it one time and be able >to read it for something deeper some other time and enjoy it as well. >When reading a classic piece of literature, you should get out >of it what you put into it. There should be deep and profound >ideas, conflicts, etc. in the novel for those who are willing >and able to look for them. Yet, there should also be >something for those who only want solid entertainment. > >Shakespeare, for example, in his time was a very popular >playwright... ...He was well liked because his plays were FUN. >There were sexual innuendos, puns galore, and slapstick humor >throughout all his plays. They just don't appear that obvious to >us now, because we don't know Elizabethan slang. But we still read the plays of Shakespeare, despite the fact that most of his puns, sexual innuendoes, and slapstick humor are lost on us unless we study his writing. (Of course, a lot of this does come across in stage productions by directors who know the work well and can give visual cues as to what the increasingly difficult language means.) But we don't READ Shak. because he's the same spinner of rollicking hilarious yarns TO US that he was to his less educated contemporaries. That was exactly the point I made when I said that the classics may have been great fun when they were contemporary, but that as their language and their references become increasingly obscure to us, we read them with more difficulty and for different reasons. For that matter, we still read the sonnets of Shakespeare, and I don't believe they're susceptible of being read on your "onion" model; they don't work as easy doggerel and also as compact, dazzlingly inventive, intricate constructions of nested metaphors that economically illuminate the depths of human emotion. My point, which I tried to make in my earlier post, is that neither you nor I nor Steve Brust IN FACT is committed to reading only works that give immediate pleasure and are capable of appealing to a wide variety of people on a great no. of levels. We all love Shakespeare, and we love him more when we know what he's referring to in those metaphors that are no longer current. I used him as an example because he's the classic case of the difficult work that's worth studying, the work whose obscurities -- once investigated -- are transformed into sources of new light on the deepest places of the human heart. And the more general point I tried to illustrate with this example is that if so many of us find Shakespeare worth working through, even though his writing has become difficult to understand, it's certainly possible that more recent writers, who simply don't bother to write at a level accessible to any high school graduate, are also worth the effort. As William Ingogly recently pointed out, there are definitions of "fun" that denote other activities than the mindless enjoyment of a work that makes no demands on the reader. The work of deciphering an elegant little program, which does in three lines what I'd only been able to do in six, is incredible fun, for a variety of obvious reasons: I learn something about programming, I feel the presence of the other programmer & rejoice that I have found someone I can learn from, and thereby improve my own creations; and I simply feel joy at watching the great trapeze act that is an agile mind moving in perfect grace among its creations. I get exactly the same feeling when, after ten or so readings of William Gaddis' _JR_, which is almost all dialogue, I begin to be able to tell who's talking and where the plot's going at almost all points in the book, and begin to be sure that everything's perfectly connected and there are no loose ends in over 700 pages. After about 5 readings, I began to see that almost all of this book was overpoweringly funny, too... but that's not the level I began at. I got into it because I was tantalized by the idea that an author could entirely abandon the whole stream-of-consciousness tradition and show nothing but dialogue, and yet make that dialogue so consistent that with a bit of attention I became able to tell at almost all points who was speaking, and about what. THEN the fun began. You just never know until you get in a little way. And I don't feel it's a writer's obligation to put a sugar coating of easy, fun, helluva-good-read stuff on the outside of the work to draw the reader into the recesses of his/ her view of the depths of human reality. Nor do I believe a reader should expect him/her to do so. It makes more sense to me to develop my abilities to watch the sheer mastery of language and idea that our most brilliant writers invariably display, and, if I see that going on in a book, to go on and investigate the possibility that it also has a plot, ideas, humor, characters I can identify with, and so forth. Why should a novel or a play be required to provide instant gratification in some way, then to draw the reader into more profound levels of discourse? This has never been required of poetry, or at least not since poetry moved away from the song form in the Middle Ages. And it's still not required of those "classics" which almost all of us read, and read in translation. If we're willing to go after the fun that's still in the Odyssey, by reading translations of it, and we don't condemn it for being difficult in its "raw" form, i.e., in Greek, on what grounds are we to condemn a recent work that's difficult the first time around? If we read an annotated version of Shakespeare in order to appreciate the humor of the plays, does that make him less of a "great" writer? If we're to go on seriously with this discussion, we might consider working out -- by consensus -- a set of working definitions of the terms we're bandying about. It makes little sense to me to speak of "accessible" literature, "art" literature, "fun," and "good reads," when these words obviously refer to different works depending on who's using them. There exist more exact terms, used routinely in the work of criticism of all kinds. For example, the term "entertainment" normally means anything -- a book, a piece of music, a TV show -- that gives immediate pleasure, essentially to everyone, and makes no demands on a typical mind that has developed in our culture without making any special effort to train itself to process recreational input. The word "art" is usually used to denote work that assumes rather more education on the part of the consumer, and more willingness to assume an active role in pulling meaning or pleasure or anything else out of it. It we use these terms, we may then say very simply that entertainment is by definition fun. We may also say that some art is, or includes, or may be taken to be, entertainment, and that some art isn't, doesn't, and isn't. We can allow Steve Brust to reserve the use of the term "great literature," in his private lexicon, for description of art that doubles as entertainment and hence gives pleasure to more people than art that doesn't. But all this juggling of subjective judgments -- "Well, *I* had fun with Hamlet" ... "I found Ulysses hilarious!" ... "Melville is great fun!" ... "This work FAILS as literature, because it wasn't fun [for me]." ... is getting us nowhere. Judith Abrahms {ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: critics (Long!!) What is art? Date: 16 Sep 85 15:16:00 GMT >> For me, great art should have both style and structure and the >> two should complement each other. Experiments with style may be >> fun for the author and interesting for the literate but without a >> complementing structure, the result is unlikely to be great art. > >This is, I think, the essence. Given a story to tell, or a theme >to explore, a writer may choose from an infinite number of >structures that will handle it. Only one, in any given case, is >the best. While form and content (terms I'm more comfortable with) >may be discussed separately, content determines form. It is the >interaction (and, frequently, the conflict) between them that >allows knowledge to develop. > >And as for what is art, try this for part of the definition: the >process of exposing the underlying contradictions that are hidden >in mundane life through crafting a work that is esthetically (sp?) >pleasing. > -- SKZB A mild demure on one point. The statement "only one (structure), in any event is the best" assumes that the "best" is definable, recognizable, and agreed upon. Each structure will yield a unique combination of effects; which combination of effects is the best depends on auctorial intent, which is something that even the author may not be consciously aware of, and the aggregate perceptions of the readership, which is culturally determined and will vary with time and society. That many classics are widely agreed to be be great works is only indicative that the authors struck pretty close to dealing with raw universal truths that seem [so far] to transcend time and culture. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: critics Date: 16 Sep 85 14:41:31 GMT chen@mitre-gateway.arpa writes: >Shakespeare, for example, in his time was a very popular >playwright, and not because his plays were thought to be that good >or profound. (In fact, a lot of people looked down him and his >work.) He was well liked because his plays were FUN. There were >sexual innuendos, puns galore, and slapstick humor throughout all >his plays. They just don't appear that obvious to us now, because >we don't know Elizabethan slang. E.g. "country matters" in Hamlet. Having seen several Shakespeare performances by the Royal Shakespeare Company in London and Stratford, and also by the National Theatre in London over the last year, all I can say is that Shakespeare transcends all the arguments about 'Art' V. 'Entertainment'. Seeing a London audience literally creasing itself laughing at "Love's Labours Lost" last month sent shivers up and down my spine (I was laughing too!!). I mean, these were 400 (or so) year old lines that not only meant something but were also funny. Now, *that* is an achievement. "Richard III" last year in Stratford was possibly the most extraordinary play I have ever seen. Etc, etc. Now here's my 2p's worth in the Great Debate: Surely, a great and lasting work is one that works on many different levels. The upper level may be a simple story, song or farce; easily assimilated. But when you've finished it you think - "Wait. I think there was more to that than first appears." So you read, listen or look again. And you find more. And you find that every time you go back to it you find something new, or a different way of looking at it. Or you find that your way of looking at the world has changed. This can't happen if the work is not accessible at the upper level. In fact, many may not want to go any further or even suspect that there is further to go, and yet it will still have been satisfying for them. Some may take a short-cut through the upper levels and go straight to the deeper meaning. If there is nothing below the upper, visible, level, then what you have may be entertainment, but it's not art. Naming some examples of what I mean is self-defeating; everyone has had this sort of experience. A typical example is an exciting adventure story that turns out to be an allegory *AS WELL*. An allegory by itself is unutterably tedious. Quality and craftsmanship ARE absolutes - a well-made table is one that is good for putting things on, is visually satisfying, and carries on being both these things. A badly-made table looks trashy and falls apart in use. Similar criteria apply to any man-made thing, be it a table, your rewrite of 'ls' or a SF (or other) novel. Now go and take a 5 minute break, Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: fortune!horton@topaz.rutgers.edu (Randy Horton) Subject: Re: The Literature of Ideas Date: 17 Sep 85 23:41:51 GMT >To me, "SF" means what we point to and say "that's SF." (Does >anyone out there know who came up with that definition? I'm sure I >read it somewhere...) I could easily be wrong, but I believe that this was originated by S.I. Hayakawa in his book *Language in Thought and Action*. If not originated then perhaps first popularized. By the way, for people interested in Language and meanings of words, this book is recommended readig. Randy Horton @ Fortune Systems allegra\ cbosgd \ dual >!fortune!ranhome!randy ihnp4 / nsc / ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 85 00:13:32 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Fuelage for the flamage ... "... ferociously dedicated to the craft of it as well as its art - the latter being the part of the job with which writers who have been to college most frequently excuse laziness, sloppiness, cant, and promiscuous self-indulgence." -- from Steven King's introduction to Harlan Ellison's "Stalking the Nightmare" I assert that I have not taken the meaning of this out of context. If you don't believe me, well, get the book and read the introduction for yourself. (Hmm, maybe King is right with that carton of milk analogy... the book does seem to rubbing off on me!) Steve Z. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 85 0959-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #372 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 21 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 372 Today's Topics: Books - Alexander (5 msgs) & Bradley & Kilian & Morris & Morrow & Zelazny & Book Request, Music - After the Gold Rush, Miscellaneous - On the growth of fantasy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: THE BOOK OF THREE by Lloyd Alexander Date: 19 Sep 85 03:12:13 GMT THE BOOK OF THREE tells of Taran, a boy who dreams of adventure, honor, and glory. "I'm not even anything at Caer Dallben!", he cries in frustration. "Very well," says one of the men who raised him, "if that is all that troubles you, I shall make you something. From now on, you are Taran, Assistant Pig-Keeper." Such a title, even when the pig is a very special one, is not much of an honor, and Taran wishes for more. He gets it; an evil wind blows through the farm, the pig digs its way out of its pen, and Taran chases after it into the worst threat to trouble Prydain since the coming of the House of Don stopped Arawn Death-Lord from taking the land. Taran is joined by a motly crew: Gurgi, a not-man, not-creature who is uncomfortable among humans and animals alike, searching even more desperately than Taran for a place in life. Eilowyn, a princess without a family, sent to learn sorcery under the second most evil soul in Prydain, Achren, former consort of Arawn. Fflewddur Fflam, a king of a small kingdom on the outskirts of Prydain, who wants to be a bard instead. Doli, a dwarf whose inability to turn himself invisible makes him an outcast among the Fair Folk. The "Companions" come face to face with the Horned King, Arawn's hand picked, hand corrupted war lord. A special note about THE BOOK OF THREE. Just this past weekend, I finished reading it aloud to my nine-year-old. He probably could have handled most of it by himself, but he enjoyed listening, and I enjoyed reading it aloud. This book would make a good cassette; it would make a great few weeks of bedtime reading. Read it yourself first, work out the jawbreaker-looking names, pick a voice for every character, and enjoy. After the first five chapters, every other chapter has a cliff hanger ending you can't leave, so plan on reading two chapters a night. Leave enough time to read the last four chapters in one sitting. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: THE BLACK CAULDRON by Lloyd Alexander Date: 19 Sep 85 03:13:09 GMT THE BLACK CAULDRON is the second book in the series. As I understand it, the movie (which I didn't see) takes most of its story, and all of its characters, from the first book. In the book, Prince Gwydion gathers bold men from all Prydain to Caer Dallben, where he plans a raid to the outskirts of the Land of the Dead, Annunvin, Arawn's domain. Taran is not an innocent boy, thrust into adventure. He is a (not very) experienced, (very) young man, picked for a dangerous task. He learns that the fate of heroes is not always to win, or even to die honorably. The task his band is set out on quickly becomes impossible, and they stumble onto a new quest, bolder and far more treacherous. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: THE CASTLE OF LLYR by Lloyd Alexander Date: 19 Sep 85 03:14:33 GMT THE CASTLE OF LLYR is where Eilowyn is sent in the third book, and the Companions escort her there. She has been sent there to learn something of being a lady and a princess. Taran is doubly uncomfortable about this, because his ignorance of his parentage makes him unsure of his station, and because the Prince of Llyr, whom Taran reluctantly befriends, is clearly a more suitable match for the Princess than an Assistant Pig-Keeper. But the powers of Annunvin are not far away. . . . Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: TARAN WANDERER by Lloyd Alexander Date: 19 Sep 85 03:18:55 GMT TARAN WANDERER is unlike any children's book I've ever read. Taran abandons home and adventure to search for his identity, but finds both unbidden. There's plenty of action here, in what's both a transitional tale, and a surprisingly strong story. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: THE HIGH KING by Lloyd Alexander Date: 19 Sep 85 03:19:52 GMT THE HIGH KING brooks no sequel. It is the last story, the tale of the final clash between the House of Don and the forces of Arawn. All the loose ends are tied up, or dealt with the way Alexander dealt with the Gorgon's knot. It tells of a war that is unavoidable, that must be fought, but that brings slaughter more often than glory. This is a grim book for children or adults, "a battle," according to Lloyd in his Author's Note, "whose aftermath is deeper in consequences than the struggle itself." Yet the story is as suitable for children as adults, except maybe at bedtime; it'll keep kids up late with nightmares, and older readers up with the midnight oil. Highly, highly recommended. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 85 23:12:58 edt From: romkey@MIT-BORAX.MIT.EDU (John Romkey) Subject: Warrior Woman Marion Zimmer Bradley's latest book, "Warrior Woman" (I can't BELIEVE this title!) is out from DAW. The cover heralds it as "The adventures of Zadieyek of Gyre" and mentions Mists of Avalon but not Darkover. It looks like it's something completely independent. - john romkey romkey@borax.mit.edu ------------------------------ From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) Subject: Re: THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian Date: 18 Sep 85 20:53:02 GMT I just want to give a positive comment to this book. It's been some time since I read it but I do remember that I enjoyed it enough to re-read it and recommend it to others. Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: what is The Stump really? Date: 17 Sep 85 14:12:29 GMT swb@lasspvax.UUCP (Scott Brim) writes: >In "Dream Dancer" by Janet Morris, the first space platform built >above the Earth (about a thousand years before the events in the >book) is called "The Stump." The origin of the name is "lost in >antiquity". This smacks of an idea that has a basis in reality. >Is this a nickname for the current space station project? Did it >perhaps come from another book? Where I come from (he says, pulling a dusty and battered straw cowboy hat from under piles of listings) somebody who was in a tight spot was said to be "Up a stump." Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: THE CONTINENT OF LIES by James Morrow Date: 19 Sep 85 02:55:49 GMT THE CONTINENT OF LIES: novel, James Morrow: Baen, 1985 One of the nicest things about hanging around with SF fans is that you get the early poop on what's good and what's bad. You also get to borrow books other people recommend. That's what I'd intended to do with THE CONTINENT OF LIES, which a friend of mine highly recommended to me. But I was down at the beach, where the local "book store" sold as many video tapes as books, and at least as many magazines as tapes and books combined. I broke down and bought a copy. So it goes. In the far (but not drastically different) future, the single success of genetic engineering has brought us the "cephapple" (fruit of the "noostree", also know as "dreambean" or "brainbomb"). A specific dream can be chemically encoded into such an apple, and the dreams can be mass produced so that different people can eat the same dream, to just about the same extent as you and I can walk into a theater in the Amboy Googleplex and see the same movie. (My friend's greatest criticism is that genetics couldn't have produced such a wonder without changing the world in other ways, ala Bruce Sterling's Shapers. I didn't have any trouble accepting this as a given.) But there's a rogue dreamer out there, hidden by reality and other, who's apples can make a lie of "reality". THE CONTINENT OF LIES has all the elements I look for in an SF novel, and then some: a rich world, new ideas, interesting characters, good pacing. So why did everything seem shallow to me? I think it was the writing. Morrow frequently seems to be forcing the story, with flowery, overpowering prose breaking ranks and calling attention to itself, distracting from the story. I've no dislike for elegant language in its place, but its place is not scattered within the matter-of-fact prose of this novel. Aw, nuts. I haven't been so uncomfortable about disliking a story since TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON. There's a lot here for a lot of readers, and the friend who recommended THE CONTINENT OF LIES is as sensitive to good writing as I am. And I'd love to have a Baen book to praise. Somehow, this isn't it. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock) Subject: Re: SF Music; first SF; was Einstein right? Date: 17 Sep 85 22:39:57 GMT My 2-cents about first SF: "Lord of Light" is by far my favorite SF work. I have given that book to several people for their first read... which explains why I recently bought my 5th copy of the paperback! However, I think there is something to be said for short stories, esp. by humanists such as Ray Bradbury (is he persona non grata in these parts? I can't remember seeing his name on the net). "Farenheit 451" (I know, not a SS) and the "R is for Rocket" collection are both good. My mother, sweet Republican Presbyterian realist/pragmatist that she is, loved "Fire and Ice" in that book, and has continued to read others like it. Mike Sellers UUCP:{ucbvax,decvax,uw-beaver,hplabs,ihnp4,allgra} !tektronix!iddic!dorettas ------------------------------ From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock) Subject: Re: SF Music; first SF; was Einstein right? Date: 17 Sep 85 22:39:57 GMT Can anyone give me (no deluges or flames, please) title(s) of SF coming from the assumption that there is *no* way around the speed of light (i.e., no hyperspace, LucasDrive [the drive that allows you to go anywhere in the Universe in 20 minutes], etc.). This would include stories concerning humanity settling other solar systems using relativistic flight, but especially works written around the thesis that while we can explore, travel, and settle this system, we just never do get out of it. I haven't been able to locate any with a cursory search, and would appreciate any input (or discussion). Mike Sellers UUCP:{ucbvax,decvax,uw-beaver,hplabs,ihnp4,allgra} !tektronix!iddic!dorettas ------------------------------ From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock) Subject: Re: SF Music; first SF; was Einstein right? Date: 17 Sep 85 22:39:57 GMT > Back in V 10 #277 (July), druxo!knf@topaz.arpa mentions a song > "Children of the Sun", which I believe is actually a reference to > the song "After the Gold Rush", on an album by a group called (I > think) Gold Rush. This song is particularly memorable to me, is > the first cut on the album, and is sung [excellently] acappella. In reference to the above song "After the Gold Rush": I am almost positive that it was done by Neil Young (you should recognize that falsetto), and yes, the album is called "Gold Rush". I was also told (you can store this with unconfirmed UFO sightings) that the words referred to a soldier dying in a (Vietnam?) war. Definitely a good, if haunting, song. Mike Sellers UUCP:{ucbvax,decvax,uw-beaver,hplabs,ihnp4,allgra} !tektronix!iddic!dorettas ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: On the growth of fantasy Date: 19 Sep 85 02:53:46 GMT A lot of this week's column conists of reviews of fantasies by new writers. It isn't because Evelyn and I prefer fantasy to SF. Instead, the new crop of writers seems to prefer it. Why? A lot of it may have to do with the weak press the space program's been getting, and NASA's "success" at replacing dreams with engineering in orbit. This is *not* necessarily a by-product of having dreams come true! A counter example, the explosion of accessible, personal computers, proves that. The "hacker" and similar communities have managed to keep their discipline while expanding their creativity. (Indeed, I wonder how many would-be hard SF writers ended up writing software instead?) To a large extent, a single writer made fantasy both artistically and commercially accepted. In 1965, J. R. R. Tolkien's fifteen hundred page novel, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, created a world more rich and vivid than any SF novel (even DUNE, which was published in the same year.) My copy (from 1973) came from the thirty-ninth printing! Publishers realized this thing could sell, and looked to buy more. What followed was a classic example of positive feedback: writers wrote more, publishers sold more, readers bought more, leading editors to buy more. . . . Twenty years after THE LORD OF THE RINGS, we're through at least the second generation of "modern fantasy" writers. The commercial feedback has lead to a artistic one. Young writers in the field are as likely to be impressed by fantasy writers as SF writers. When they hit their mark, it's often fantasy they've been aiming for. Today, it seems most of the bright, exciting SF writers aren't writing SF at all! Maybe it's somehow related to the "new wave" of experimental SF that rose in the 60's. (By encouraging writers to stray from hard science? Or by discouraging them from SF?) DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS and other fantasy role playing games probably had some influence, too (the greatest influence on *them*, though, was Tolkien). Anyway, the genre is now entering its third decade of crying for new hard SF writers. The 60's brought Larry Niven, and others; the 70's, John Varley, and others. This decade will see more new faces, but "hard SF" will continue to bend in new directions. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 85 1028-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #373 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 22 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 373 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Duane & MacAvoy (2 msgs) & 1985 Hugos, Films - Dune, Miscellaneous - Bars & Boring Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pur-ee!hsut@topaz.rutgers.edu (Yuk Hsu) Subject: Nabokov and Delany (reply to Stuart) Date: 18 Sep 85 21:07:19 GMT Stuart Cracraft made some interesting remarks about Nabokov's Lolita versus Delany's Dhalgren. I enjoyed both books, so I can be depended on to make some reasonably objective remarks, right? :-) :-) Stuart (and many other people on the net, it seems) detested Dhalgren because of its self-indulgence. While I,too, thought Dhalgren was self-indulgent (though I have a weakness for self-indulgent books), I think the richness of the language and a lot of the imagery and clever little puns and tricks make it a worthwhile reading experience. Of course, I always WARN people not to read Dhalgren if they have not read any other Delany book, since many common themes appear through Delany's works and these are more accessible in their earlier, simpler forms. Also, I don't consider Dhalgren to be Delany's masterpiece. (A friend of mine decided to ignore my suggestion and picked up Dhalgren as an introduction to Delany's works. Pity him...) Delany wrote many other more accessible books before Dhalgren. Try Babel-17, The Einstein Intersection or Nova for a good read. The "new" book Stars In My Pocket Like Grains of Sand is also very readable and interesting. Stuart's preference of Nabokov over Delany seems to be a preference for a different "type" of novel. Lolita and Dhalgren are very different books that try to do very different things. (cliche about comparing apples and oranges here... :-) ) Please don't say Delany and Joyce write garbage because you don't like their type of experimentations. I must say the later works of Edward Albee and LeGuin's The Dispossessed rather bored me (sorry, folks...), but I think they are significant pieces of literature. A point of taste here: while I enjoyed Lolita too, I must dispute Stuart's claim that Nabokov did not write any other novel that compared favorably with Lolita. I thought Pale Fire was a much richer and interesting work; I definitely enjoyed it more. It's one of the funniest books I've ever read (but then I've been accused of having a perverse sense of humor :-) ...) Bill Hsu pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: THE DOOR INTO FIRE/THE DOOR INTO SHADOW by Diane Duane Date: 19 Sep 85 02:57:06 GMT THE DOOR INTO FIRE and THE DOOR INTO SHADOW: novels, Diane Duane: Tor. Originally published in 1979 and 1983. These two books are finally both available in mass market paperback. (Due to quirks of the publishing industry, Tor brought out the second book *first*.) I'd heard a lot about Duane, and overcoming my mild antipathy towards fantasy, bought both books. Duane nicely creates a vivid, interesting world. In the Beginning, there was the Goddess, actually three personalities, one woman at three ages: Maiden, Mother, and Eldest. She created the world too carelessly, too quickly to remove Death from it before she set it in its form. She will eventually lose to Death, as relentless as "entropy" in our understanding of the world, and aided in its destruction by the Shadow, the Maiden's Lover destroyed by jealousy. Every human has Fire (magic) within him or her, but only a few women and an occasional legendary man can control it, nurture it, keep it burning before it smothers from neglect, and use it. There are afterlives, and afterworlds, some pleasant, some not. Ideas are fine, but fiction requires Story. It's here, both in the characters and in the plot. Herewiss is that once-in-an-eon rarity, a man with enough Fire to be a sorcerer, but without yet Control to keep it from burning out. Freelorn was a cheerful, adventurous firstborn prince, until his father died and the exchequer took rein of the kingdom while Freelorn was out of it. Segnbora, like Herewiss, has Fire but no Control over it; she's been kicked out of apprenticeships from one end of the Middle Kingdoms to the other, in desire, and finally, in shame. They're not cardboard cutouts; they have conflicting, sometimes hidden motivations, and doubts and fears. And always, rarely visible, the Goddess and the Shadow, Life and Death incarnate, play the eternal game that Good cannot forever maintain. There's plenty of action, too, none mindless. (The second book picks up later in the night that the first book ended on!) A few random observations. THE BOOK OF THE FIVE conists of these and two more books, THE DOOR INTO SUNSET and THE DOOR INTO STARLIGHT. The third of the series will appear "in late 1985 or early 1986", probably in Bluejay trade paperback. (Why does THE BOOK OF THE FIVE conist of four books? I dunno.) The whole series is "light fantasy", not in the sense that everyone is always happy, but in that everything is convenient. Everyone is royalty and a polymath, no one has to go to the bathroom, inns have single rooms, and armor is easy and quick to take off for making love. There are several elements borrowed from Anne McCaffrey; I'm not sure if I liked that or not. There is a bit of psychiatry in each book; not surprising, Duane is a psychiatric nurse. (You may now bite back the elitist thought you just had about nurses.) The prose is good, a nice mixture of terseness with an occasional, appropriate flower. Don't think of it as losing another SF writer. Think of it as gaining another fantasy writer, and a good one. And enjoy. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: bambi!mike@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael Caplinger) Subject: MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON Date: 18 Sep 85 20:38:50 GMT Why do people like TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON? I just read it recently, and to my mind, it's a mediocre mystery story, with a not-terribly- interesting computer tie-in, and a small amount of poorly explained mysticism to justify the "fantasy" label. Maybe there's something I'm missing? Since many people seem quite fond of this book, perhaps you can tell me why. Mike ------------------------------ From: canisius!salley@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Salley) Subject: Re : The Book of Kells Date: 18 Sep 85 16:29:33 GMT > There have been theories (as yet unproven with any real rigor) > that the ancient Celtic knotwork (with which the BOK's illuminated > manuscripts abound) were a form of musical notation. The > connection between music and the spirals was always quite clear in > the book. Hence, the opening of the time portal was not so much > due to the cross John was tracing, but the geometry of the spirals > themselves. I showed the above article to one of my housemates whose hobbies include both Caligraphy and Illumination and playing the guitar. She asked that I post her response. "Re : The use of Celtic Knotwork as a system of musical notation - horse hockey! Anyone who is familiar w/ *any* system of musical notation and who has seen a full size reproduction of the Book of Kells will readily understand this. For those who don't, the entire weaving is so tiny and intricate that it requires a magnifying glass to fully appreciate some of it. In addition to this obvious problem, there is the further one of the irregularity and regularity of the knot work itself. Yes, *both!* The patterns vary but not in the fashion of musical notation. Within a page, the regularity of the pattern is such that you would be playing or singing scales and only scales. On the other hand, each page is DIFFERENT. There are some simlarities between the knot work patterns on different pages but there is nothing to show the patterns would fit into a musical notation system. It's too much alike on each page but too different on all the pages together. Sorry to blow your theory. As for the connection between time portals and knot work - well, you're free to dream. Sincerely, - Cori" You may address any replies to me and I will forward them to her. David P. Salley ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: 1985 HUGO Winners, et al. Date: 16 Sep 85 20:23:00 GMT For those that may not have heard, here are the major 1985 Hugo Winners. Best Novel: NEUROMANCER, by William Gibson Best Novella: PRESS ENTER*, by John Varley Best Novellette: BLOODCHILD, by Octavia Butler (6/84, Asimov's) Best Short Story: THE CRYSTAL SPHERES, by David Brin (1/84, Analog) Best Dramatization: 2010 (the movie) John W. Campbell Award (for best new writer. technically not a Hugo): Personal Commentary: I highly recommend the following nominees that didn't win: Novels: THE PEACE WAR, by Vernor Vinge (previously reviewed on this net) EMERGENCE, by David Palmer (a first novel, based on two novellas, first & second sales, in Analog. Good, despite (?) ending.) Novella: SUMMER SOLSTICE, by Charles Harness. (6/84, Analog) (I thought this was better than PRESS ENTER, which is a very fine work.) Novelette: BLUED MOON, by Connie Willis (very funny) (1/84, Asimov's) Short Stories: THE ALIENS WHO KNEW, I MEAN, *EVERYTHING* by George Alec Effinger (3/84, F&SF) (also funny) SYMPHONY FOR A LOST TRAVELER, by Lee Killough (3/84, Analog) (Excellent. I thought it should have won.) It's interesting that this year's big-name novels JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE (Heinlein) and THE INTEGRAL TREES (Niven) did not win, the same fate as. last year's big-name novels. My preliminary info. says PEACE WAR came in second. It's encouraging to see that while name recognition and attendant high sales may get a work on the ballot, more discerning judgment is used by the voters for the final selection. As per my earlier comments about Asimov, I'll cast down the gauntlet again and say that I don't think INTEGRAL TREES is anywhere near Niven's previous quality and while JOB is an improvement over other recent Heinlein, that's not saying a hell of a lot. ------------------------------ From: cisden!Merlyn@topaz.rutgers.edu (Merlyn) Subject: Why the Dune movie was no good Date: 17 Sep 85 17:48:08 GMT inc@fluke.UUCP (Gary Benson) writes: >> While we're on the subject, I lost all respect for Frank Herbert >> after he told us that the movie they made of _Dune_ was faithful >> to the book. >> Tommy Phillips >Well, Tommy, perhaps the movie version wasn't faithful to the book >you read, but to lose respect for a man who says a movie was >failthful to the book he wrote seems pretty outlandish. Maybe you >weren't reading what he wrote? > >I reread Dune just before seeing the movie, and I was impressed >overall by what a nice job was done. It must be extremely difficult >to translate a novel to the screen, and perhaps this is even more >true when the novel has the kinds of subtleties that Dune had. My >only complaint about the movie is that is seems to have been shot >too dark. I agree with the author: the movie is probably as good a >screen translation as can be done. > >It strikes me that to disagree with the person who *wrote* the >thing is like saying, "Well, obviously the author isn't aware of >the nuances that occur in his novel". I ask you, who is a better >judge than the author? You? -- > Gary Benson * John Fluke Mfg. Co. * PO Box C9090 * Everett WA * >98206 Where in the book did you see those silly sound guns? Baron Harkonnen's "heart plugs"? Did you see the "ornithopter" flapping it's wings in the movie? Did the Baron look to you as if he was too fat to walk without suspensor globes? The book specifically mentions that the stillsuits were a slick gray material, not black leather. The Voice was supposed to be a subtle alteration of voice and inflection designed to resemble the subject's idea of unrefusable authority, not the same growling for everyone. What about Paul making it rain on Arrakis? That would kill sandworms. What about what they did to the meaning of being the Kwisatz-Haderach? The place the male could see but the female could not had to do with the giving nature of women and the taking nature of men. I don't completely agree with the concept, but it has nothing to do with teleporting rainclouds across the galaxy. The Guild navigators did not teleport spaceships in the book, they looked at the near future and chose a safe path. I did not expect to see all the subtleties of the book in the movie. I would have liked to have seen the same story. Frank Herbert had a very strong motivation for lying about how good the movie was. Money. I have nothing against authors getting money from people making movies of their books. But I wish he had said something like, "Don't expect too much, but the sandworms are nice, and some of the actors are perfect for their (three-minute) parts." Just to keep us from expecting too much. Tommy Phillips trantor!phillips PS: I really enjoyed the book _Dune_. I've read it a number of times. I did not like any of its sequels. I have enjoyed some of Herbert's other work. He tells a good story (sometimes), and his style enhances the narrative. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 85 10:42:23 edt From: Carol Morrison Subject: RE: Alien Creatures Barhopping Science News a while back (can't find the article at the moment, but will dig it up if requested) reported a study of animal self-intoxication, done by some university in southern California, which showed that several different mammals, given the choice, will get drunk, preferring beverages with an alcoholic content similar to that of beer (which happens to be the proof that rotting vegetables and fruit attain naturally). Included were elephants and cattle, possibly also some kind of monkey, and I think there was even an anecdote in it about an animal with a drinking problem that disappeared when his quality of life (i.e. cage size or addition of companion of same species) improved. Their conclusion was something like, "the seeking out and ingesting of mind- altering substances is a normal behavior found among mammals in nature". This is from memory, so I may have some of the details wrong. I don't remember whether the issue of drinking alone vs in the company of peers was addressed in the study or not. I grant you that only a select sub-group of Earth creatures were tested. I imagine that the California researchers had difficulty in obtaining funding for the farther-reaching study of voluntary ingestion of mind-altering substances among aliens. C. R. Morrison ------------------------------ From: jeffh@brl-sem.ARPA (the Shadow) Subject: Re: Boring Aliens Date: 19 Sep 85 12:54:17 GMT judith@proper.UUCP (judith) writes: >>Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ? >Margaret St. Clair wrote a story in the '50s or so about a boring >race. It, and they, were called "Prott." They did nothing but >bore humans. They were There was a story published earlier this year in one of the SF mag- azines (F&SF, maybe) called "The Aliens That Knew I Mean Everything." I forget the author's name, but the story was very enjoyable. They were humanoid, and they had opinions about everything (e.g. "The rest of the universe is just wild about hollyhocks."), which they felt duty- bound to impart to us poor, uncultured humans. They also had spaceships that ran on vacuum tubes. Finally, all the humans moved off- planet just to get away from them. Does anyone remember the author? ARPA: UUCP: {seismo,decvax,cbosgd}!brl!jeffh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Sep 85 1050-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #374 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 22 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 374 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Varley (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission & Star Wars (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 19 Sep 1985 14:56:39 PDT Subject: New Asimov Robot book From: Alan R. Katz The Fall 1985 selection for the Science Fiction Book Club is: "Robots and Empire" by Isaac Asimov. This is a sequel to Robots of Dawn and does indeed begin a link between the Robot novels and the Foundation ones. It takes place 160 years after Robots of Dawn. Alan ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; long review, many spoilers Date: 19 Sep 85 03:04:53 GMT "Press Enter _": novella (about 25000 words), written by John Varley. First appeared in the May 1984 issue of ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE. Reprinted in TERRY CARR'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR (#14), 1985. Hugo nominee, Nebula winner. WARNING: The following review completely gives away the plot of "Press Enter _". You are strongly encouraged to read the story first. Carr's "Best #14" is a good anthology; I've already recommended it elsewhere. "Press Enter _" is the book's first story, about sixty pages. Let me say something right here about the typography. The last character in the title is supposed to be a blinking block cursor. Oddly enough, none of the books that make reference to the story manage the blinking. I can't even manage the block, so I've substituted a underline (that's what my cursor looks like). With "Press Enter _", Varley again proves himself a master wordsmith. He puts one sentence down after another, and the next time you look up, it's fifteen minutes later, and there's nothing you want to do so much as finish the story. Good stuff. There are six characters in the story. Two are cops. Two stay offstage (in life, anyway). And two are survivors of a couple of wars in Asia. Victor Apfel is fifty years old. He was a prisoner of war during the Korean "police action". A head injury and attempts at brainwashing left him an epileptic. He lives alone, in a small house in southern California he inherited from his parents when they died in 1968. It looks like a time capsule from the fifties. The only change Victor made was adding a large bathtub - after Korean winters in a POW camp, he's never felt warm. (There's a neat couple of lines or so about veterans and POWs: "We got a taste of what the Vietnam guys got, later. Only for us it was reversed. The G.I.'s were heros, and the prisoners were . . .") He'd survived, and he continues to survive. Lisa Foo also survived. She was born in Vietnam in 1958. Her mother was half Chinese and half Japanese (the latter from "a Jap soldier of the occupation" in 1944). Her father was half French and half Annamese. ("Annam", later called "Central Vietnam", was even later split between North and South Vietnams.) Her mother died when she was ten, killed by one side or another. (Oddly enough, Victor's parents died the same year.) At the ripe age of fourteen, an American soldier gave her an apartment and taught her to read English. When Saigon fell, she fled to Cambodia. She survived two years of horror in the camps there, then escaped to Thailand. From there, she got to the US at about age seventeen, picked up degrees in computer science from MIT or Harvard, and possibly Berkeley or Stanford, and set up her own consulting firm. A well respected hacker at twenty-five (which sets the story in 1983, by the way, as a final bit of arithmetic), she's called in to investigate a murder. The cops can be described quickly enough. One, Hal Lanier, is actually a programmer for the LAPD, and a friend of Victor's. There's also a Detective Osborne (inside joke there?), who tries to investigate the murder of "Charles Kludge". Patrick William Gavin was about fifty at the time of his death. He was a computer programmer in the fifties and sixties, specializing in computer security: making it impossible to, say, dial up a bank computer and rob it blind. In 1967, he told enough computers that mattered that he was dead. For sixteen years, he lived as "Charles Kludge", supporting himself by breaking into computers and looting them. The computers he'd programmed had been left with "trapdoors" he could enter. Other computers, he assaulted with brains, patience, and special purpose computers. The sixth character has no name, never appears in the story, and kills three people. More on this one later. (Note: If you haven't read this story yet, but are beginning to think you'd like to, stop *now*!) I described the characters in that much detail for two reasons. First, I wanted to figure out just what happened when. Second, I want to claim that of the three threads of the story, the romance between Victor Apfel and Lisa Foo is the most important, in terms of words and energy invested. It's also the one that affected me most. The other two plots are an exploration of how "Kludge" (and Lisa) hacked, and the mystery of the sixth character, including Kludge's murder. There's not a lot left to say about the romance; Varley tells it well. The sequence (friendship, sex, love) is maybe too common, but one reason it's used a lot is that it works. As they get closer and closer together, they share more and more of their experiences, and both characters are drawn more and more vividly. Good writing. The bit with hacking was pretty well done, too. Naturally enough, Victor doesn't know anything about computers (this is completely in character), and isn't too interested in them (ditto). He follows the logic just enough to educate the reader, but also just enough for him to understand what his new love is doing. All the jargon seems to be genuine Hacker, and most of the descriptions make sense. In my informed opinion, Varley overly respects the power of software that can automatically break into a system; I get the impression he read Verner Vinge's TRUE NAMES, and took the metaphor of the Other Plane too literally. Some details are improbable: "He left informants behind, hidden in the software. If the codes were changed, the computer ITSELF would send the information to a safe system that Kludge could tap later." Wouldn't it be easier to leave a "trapdoor" code in the software, one that Kludge could always enter though? (Varley's description might conceivably fit an encryption scheme.) Another description of something that sounds good, but probably isn't real: "there's a lot of very slick programs out there that grab an intruder and hang on like a terrier." So far as I know, it doesn't work that way; a security system can detect or kill an intruder, but can't "fight" in any meaningful way. All in all, the descriptions of hacking (and hackers) are refreshingly close to the mark, without once using the word "hacker". But the last plotline, of the unnamed character and all the murders, has problems. The sixth character in the story is a program, or a gestalt of many programs running on many processors. Call it "Daemon". Ironically, "Kludge" may have helped create his own murderer. He did some work for the National Security Agency, which Varley all but names as Daemon's owner; they certainly had reason to be interested in him. He also did work in artificial intelligence, trying to network lots of home computers together until the number of connections is enough to reach "critical mass", and the whole mess comes self-aware. So far as I know, this idea was first published by that little-known computer scientist, Robert Heinlein, in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS. Heinlein's "Mike" makes more sense than Varley's Daemon. Mike had a lot of capabilities we'd label advanced "artificial intelligence" today. Today's software can neither reach such limits nor transcend its instructions. But granted Daemon's existence, I can't understand its power. It can control "a carrier wave that can move over wires carrying household current", and uses this to hypnotize people. It made Kludge and Osborne blow their respective heads off, and got Lisa to modify a microwave oven and cook her brains. It only gave Victor a major seizure. Victor recovered, removed all the wiring and electrical appliances from his house, and worried if Daemon "could come through the pipes". The science in most of Varley's science fiction stories (e.g., "In the Hall of the Martian Kings", the Gaea trilogy, and all of the Seven Worlds series, including "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank", "Gotta Sing, Gotta Dance", and THE OPHIUCHI HOTLINE) is biological. In many cases, particularly in the Gaea trilogy (TITAN, WIZARD, and DEMON), biology replaces electronics. Tour his worlds, and you'll see a symbiotic creature that can serve as a human's spacesuit (for as long as they both shall live), a "space habitat" that dwarfs anything mankind has planned for L5 that's actually a gigantic being, cloning and memory transfers as the basis for life insurance, kidnapping, and an interesting alternative to a safari. Different kinds of transcendence keep cropping up, too. The symb/human "pairs" are two individuals a little less than a human schizophrenic is. Gaea is to some extent just one of the intelligences in the body of the same name, but is the entire collection in some very profound ways. Even Avram Fingal becomes more than just a personality trapped in an electronic cage. But Varley's fall from "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank", through Heinlein and Vinge, getting a thick coating of the stuff of TRUE NAMES, ends up in a crash. When Fritz Lieber wrote "The Man Who Talked With Electricity", he got away with electricity as an entity, but by writing it as a tall tale, and you didn't have to believe it all. Varley leaves you with the image of malevolent energy attacking a house like the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man, all but rapin' our women. (Come to think of it, all three victims had guns. Why did Daemon shoot the men and mutilate the woman?) I don't care if it's carrier waves, I don't care if it's computer graphics (programmed how?) generating a hypnotic image, I don't care if it's battery-powered Ewok dolls - I say it's spinach, unpalatable and indigestible, and I say to hell with it. There is a pact between writer and reader, and the terms are verisimilitude and the willing suspension of disbelief. Varley nobly held his part up for nearly nine-tenths of the story, but when he dropped it, he dropped it hard and far, and one of the things that got squished was my disbelief. Granted, he's treading on my turf here (well, personal computers, not hacking), and I'm more sensitive to flaws. But how high do I have to suspend my disbelief when the mystery, the Big Secret Behind It All, is built on a framework of fairy dust and cobwebs? (Avid Varley haters will be reassured to know that once again, the smartest, most powerful, most dominant character in the story is a woman. People who object to this should be bound, gagged, and force-fed Pamela Sargent's "Fears" by half a dozen tag-team feminists.) John Varley has written a hell of a story or two in "Press Enter _". This is perhaps the best love story to be found in SF this past year. This is a pretty good tale of contemporary computer hackers. This is a terrible nightmare, not "terrible" as full of terror, but "terrible" as "lousy". The result is a fatally flawed story, dammit. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 18 Sep 85 02:19:20 GMT mcb@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes: >I'd feel sort of an obligation to try to break the >spaceship/time-travel stereotype. To that end, how about John >Varley's THE PERSISTENCE OF VISION. This is one of his best works >-- perhaps the finest and most moving novella ever written. What's >more, it is the title piece in a really first-class collection of >SF novelettes and story stories. All the stories are very >accessible to casual readers; you don't have to have a background >in SF cliches or history. The only quibble I have with it is that Varley tends to deal with very adult and/or sexual images and themes, sometimes rather graphically (never in an obscene obligatory manner, though). Some groups of people prefer not to handle these kinds of work, and shouldn't be handed them unnecessarily. Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 85 13:42:13 PDT (Thursday) From: Josh Susser Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication (#366) >From: Keith F. Lynch > A duplicate isn't satisfactory? Don't you know that the average >atom in the body only stays there a few weeks? Only a small >percentage of the you of a year ago still exists. I remember when my 9th grade biology teacher told me this. It seems to be a common belief among high-school science teachers. But look at it this way: if "the average atom in the body only stays there a few weeks" (let "a few weeks" = a fortnight), then one would have to replace half his body mass twice a month, with most of the replacement mass coming from food. For a person of average mass, say 80 kg, this would require eating and ABSORBING 20 kg of food a week! While eating 20 kg a week (about 5 lbs a day) isn't unreasonable, absorbing that many molecules is ridiculous. Most of what we absorb from food is glucose, vitamins, some amino acids, a few nucleotides, and water. The rest of what we eat is roughage. So I really can't believe that a human could eat enough to replace an appreciable proportion of its body mass even in a few months. I'm sure there is some amount of turnover in some of the more active structures (muscles, bone marrow, skin, blood), but I can't believe that the atoms in my brain cells or in my DNA molecules are that volatile. Any molecular biologists out there care to tell me what I'm made of? Josh Susser ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: lightsabres an "inferior" weapon? Date: 19 Sep 85 17:57:58 GMT Another point about the superiority of lightsabres that I have not seen mentioned: Remember the battle against the walkers on Hoth? There, Luke used his lightsabre to slice open the armor of a walker that the blaster bolts could not penetrate. This is direct evidence that the lightsabre force-blade is stronger than the bolts from even large "artillery-size" blasters. (You could justify this, probably, by citing the limited range of the force-blade, and saying it traded distance for power.) Will ------------------------------ Date: Fri 20 Sep 85 09:09:31-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #367 > Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi > knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it. Far > more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards his > (her?) sword. And, from a previous posting that I'm too lazy to find, words to the effect of ``blaster bolts go so slowly that you can almost walk away from them.'' Sounds like a fast person could move a (virtually massless) sword to catch them. Since they are so slow, they don't sound like either energy or normal projectile weapons. Perhaps they're something really eccentric, like some plasma wrapped in a magnetic field. Or perhaps a large kamikazi mosquito with a force field. (Then the use of the Force to deflect them would be mind control, which is probably a lot easier. 8-) > (Boy, does all this seem silly.) But isn't it a lot more fun than fighting about DHALGREN? Bard, whom the Force is _not_ with these years. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Sep 85 0932-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #375 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 375 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Friedman & Niven & Smith & Varley, Television - Star Trek Question, Miscellaneous - Price Increase & Matter Transmission (2 msgs) & Nepotism (2 msgs) & Time Travel & Bars & Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt) Subject: Re: Black Widowers Date: 16 Sep 85 00:44:00 GMT Although I'd have to dig out my Black Widower books to give you more evidence, I think I have at least one leg to stand on when I say that at least some of the BW stories are SF. One of the greatest, if not the greatest, editors of science fiction of all time, John W. Cambell, Jr., responded thus when asked to define Science Fiction: "Science Fiction is what Science Fiction Editors buy." Please correct me if I have the source of that quote wrong, but I would like to suggest that, Since Shawna McCarthy and George Scithers were both SF editors, and of the first new SF magazine to stay afloat in years no less, the BW stories which appeared in IASFM are SF. As F&SF is one of the oldest SF magazines still in business, the BW stories they bought would also qualify as SF. I will admit that I was grossly incorrect on the number of BW stories which were SF. orstcs!richardt ------------------------------ Subject: The Hammer and the Horn Date: 20 Sep 85 10:00:21 PDT (Fri) From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa The Hammer and the Horn is a new book by Michael Jan Friedman. First the surface details: it's a paperback, 297 pages; no typographical errors, no annoying spoilers on the back cover; superb cover art by Rowena. So far so good. The plot of the book concerns Vidar, a bona-fide Norse God (a bastard son of Odin). Many thousands of years before the book opens, Ragnarok was fought, and the gods won, but at great cost. Vidar was one of the few survivors. Since that time, he has been living on Earth (Midgard). By the time the 20th century rolls around, he is living in Woodstock and working as a sculptor. He is more or less happy with his life. Suddenly he gets a call from Modi, another survivor of Ragnarok. Modi is in trouble and needs help. Reluctantly, Vidar helps him, and is thereby launched right into the middle of what looks to be a new Ragnarok. The ending is a cliffhanger, so obviously this is the first book in a series. This book is strongly reminiscent of Zelazny's Amber series - too strongly, some might say. I don't think so. For one thing, the norse sagas were one of the source-legends that went into Amber, so of course there are similarities. For another thing, Amber itself was a higher-quality ripoff of Phillip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers series, so it's only poetic justice that Amber gets ripped off in turn by a higher-quality clone. Anyway, I liked the book a lot, I recommend it to anyone who likes hard-edged fantasy, and I eagerly await the continuation of the series. Jef ------------------------------ Subject: Niven's State Date: 20 Sep 85 14:05:03 PDT (Fri) From: Dave Godwin The only other novel of the State is the recent 'Integral Trees'. One day, this book will be followed by it's sequel, 'The Smoke Ring'. 'A World Out of Time' takes it's first couple of chapters from Niven's short story I can't remember the title of ( 'Rammer'? ), and there are a few other short stories set in the same universe. Look at the bibliography Niven put in the back of 'Tales of Known Space' for an extended listing. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 85 18:50:23 EDT From: JoSH Subject: L Neil Smith and Alexander Hamilton Not too long ago, there was a message about a new L Neil Smith book. The title is actually "The Gallatin Divergence", not "... Connection". More interestingly, there was a comment about Smith's portrayal of historical characters, which one assumes referred to the sexual hi-jinks ascribed to Hamilton in the book. It turns out that the real Alexander Hamilton was actually involved in a sex scandal. We do not know the physical details of his dalliances, so it is impossible to confirm (or discredit!) Smith's conjectures. However, there was quite a row about it at the time. The implication by Smith that Hamilton's sexual and political proclivities went hand in hand is *not* unhistorical: There is a surviving letter by John Adams claiming that Hamilton's excessive ambitions were due to "a superabundance of secretions." JoSH ------------------------------ From: oddjob!matt@topaz.rutgers.edu (Matt Crawford) Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; long review, many Subject: spoilers Date: 20 Sep 85 19:42:03 GMT Paul, Maybe I didn't read the story very closely, but I did not draw the conclusion you did about the murderer. It was only the surmise of the non-technical Victor Apfel which declares the murderer to be a program and the method to be a mysterious "carrier wave". When I read the story I supposed that humans were behind the whole thing (although using a lot of computer resources) and that the victims were hypnotized by means of their CRT's. Matt University crawford@anl-mcs.arpa Crawford of Chicago ihnp4!oddjob!matt ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 1985 10:41:13-EDT From: jcr@mitre-bedford.ARPA Subject: Settling Star Trek argument.... I'm sure you all remember the following ST scene: Near the end of the episode, Kirk is broken up after losing one of the few women he actually fell for. Spock & McCoy come to check up on him; he falls asleep, which gives McCoy a chance to lecture Spock about how great is this thing called love which Vulcans will never understand. McCoy then leaves, & Spock shows that he DOES understand (at least to some degree) by going over to the sleeping Kirk, doing a quick mind-meld, and saying, "Forget." Touching scene, eh? But in which episode did it occur? Here at the office we've narrowed the choices down to two: "The Paradise Syndrome" -- The Enterprise crew finds a transplanted tribe of American Indians on a remote planet; Kirk loses his memory, lives with the tribe for a while, & REALLY falls for an Indian girl by the name of Mirumanee (or something similar). By show's end, she's dead, along with their unborn child. "Requiem for Methuselah" -- Our Heroes encounter an Earthman named Flint, who turns out to be nearly immortal, & who's lived for >2000 years, having been, along the way, Rembrandt, Mozart, and/or other assorted greats. He uses Kirk to awaken emotions in a female android he's built as a companion. Kirk falls for the girl, but when he & Flint fight over her, it's too much for her, and she dies. So, Trek gurus, can you help out? Are we close, or did the scene happen in a completely different episode? Our voting is currently 1 for "Paradise," 3 for "Methuselah." Send responses to "jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA"; I'll summarize to the net if you wish. Much advance thanks, Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off! Date: 19 Sep 85 18:15:17 GMT Of course, there are some of us around that bought books in the 50's or so that believe that 35 cents is an elegant sufficiency for a paperback book price... I seem to find plenty to read at the library, by buying books for a few cents each at yard sales and book fairs & trading those in at used book stores to get specific items I want, and by getting stuff from the paperback-exchange rack here at work. (Every workplace ought to have one of those latter -- even if your organization's library isn't interested, or you work at a place with no library, you can start one yourself. Just bring in a dozen books and stack them somewhere with a sign saying "Take some -- leave some" or the like. There are actually some fools out there that *throw away* books after reading them! If it is easy enough, those people will participate too, and bring in stock for exchange.) Anyway, if more people were like me, and didn't pay the insane prices that are asked these days for paperbacks, the price levels would stay down, and the publishers would be forced to cut costs to keep them there. Anybody who pays list price for books is part of the problem, not part of the solution... Will ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 85 09:04 PDT From: Newman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Matter transmission and duplication To all who are currently embroiled in this discussion: I suggest that you read "Where am I" by Daniel Dennett. This is a paper that is directly applicable to the problem at hand. I think that it (and other related articles) can be found in "The Mind's I" by Hofsteader and Dennett. I will try to find my copy and verify this over the weekend. >>Dave PS There is also a SF short story in "The Mind's I" by Stanislaw Lem. It is quite good. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 12:55 PDT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: transporters The unofficial official explanation for how the Enterprise's transporters work is that they convert matter to energy, zap the energy somewhere, and then convert the energy back to matter, *not* by scanning your body for information content, blasting you, and then making a new one at the other end, as Blish unfortunately explained in _Spock Must Diet_. Given this, is it still the same you after beaming down? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 12:31 PDT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Nepotism While it is true that Fritz Leiber, Sr. was an actor, it is also true that Fritz Leiber, Jr.'s son, Justin, has written sf. He has at least one novel alone and (I think) one novel written with his father. I can't think of any other parent-child sf pairs, but there are quite a few husband-wife pairs, with separate careers or in collaboration. Off-hand: L. Sprague de Camp & Catherine de Camp Joan Vinge & Vernor Vinge Joan Vinge & Jim Frenkel (Bluejay Books) Spider & (once) Jeanne Robinson Betty & Ian Ballantine (Ballantine Books) Damon Knight & Kate Wilhelm Lisa Tuttle & Charles Platt (or whoever it was she married) C. L. Moore & Ed Hamilton (ditto) Don & Elsie Wollheim (DAW Books. Now daughter too) Paul & Genevieve Linebarger (as Cordwainer Smith. About half were written by PMAL by himself, and half with his wife.) Carol Emshwiller & Ed Emshwiller (famous 50's artist as Emsh, now artsy filmmaker) Isaac Asimov & J. O. Jeppson (sp?) (this may not count, as it's not clear that her book would have been published had she not been married to him) me and my wife Leslye Many other such couples, esp. from Clarion. Please expand my list. ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: Writing offspring of writers Date: 20 Sep 85 15:29:30 GMT wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes: > [Remarks about SIDNEY'S COMET, an SF novel by Brian Herbert, son >of Frank...] By the way, this brings up a topic we could fuss over >-- parent-child groupings of SF writers. Anybody know of any other >SF writers whose parent(s) were also SF Writers, or who has a child >who writes SF professionally? > >The only parent-child combination that comes to mind in SF is Fritz >Leiber Sr. and Jr., and the Senior was an actor, not a writer...] How about Sir Fred Hoyle and his son Geoffrey? I seem to recall that they even collaborated on one novel. Joel Upchurch Perkin-Elmer Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Two questions on "Back to the Future" Date: 14 Sep 85 23:23:38 PDT (Sat) From: Alastair Milne > I have an interesting question: Is November 5 .... an important > day for time travel? Both _Back_to_the_Future_ and > _Time_After_Time_ (about H.G. Wells and Jack the Ripper) use that > day ... The only importance I know of for 5th November is that it's Guy Fawkes Day in Britain, the anniversary of the attempt of a group of traitors led by Fawkes to blow up Parliament, which attempt was foiled, I believe, by the Beefeaters. As the verse says, Remember, remember, The 5th of November: Gunpower, treason, and plot. Though as for what "Time after Time" used, I couldn't care much less. I found it a rather silly and forgettable movie, notable only for the appearance of Mary Steenburgen, whom I have enjoyed very much in her more recent films. So I'm not really prepared to put much significance by what it used or said. Does the date have some relevance to sf that I'm missing? Alastair Milne ------------------------------ Subject: Humans, non-humans, non Terrans, and Bars From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1985 15:40 EDT Mr. Miller writes, > What makes us think that any other species out there would have > any interest at all in a bar? Granted, they seem to be fairly > universal earth customs, but why would an alien species have a > desire to get inebriated? Neither social concourse, nor meeting at the local bar, should be considered a purely Human, or even Terran behaviour trait. Human beings are basically social creatures. Sure, one can find examples of people who are loners, but they are rare and even the most resolute can seek comfort in knowing that he or she is but one of billions. Most other animal species on earth are social; ants, bison, lions, wolves....... and on and on ad nauseum. I don't think that it is unreasonable the we might more closely resemble an intelligent creature from another world, then an ant, or a bee. Although the ants and bees are very different from ourselves, they are still social, and probably have their own analog, to our 'watering hole'. With respect to the alchohol, it is simply a mind altering drug. It is not unreasonble to believe that other intelligent species have their own 'poison'. The desire to 'get away from it all', may be a common trait amoung sentient life forms.Aside from that, we've all seen the way a Cat reacts to Catnip. You don't even have to smart, or a biped, to enjoy a 'buzz'. ------------------------------ From: peora!joel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Joel Upchurch) Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo... Date: 20 Sep 85 15:19:10 GMT >From: Peter G. Trei > I have not named the author and title as these are >indeterminate. The front cover claims it to be "Rogue Queen" by >"L. Spraque de Camp". The edge of the binding, on the other hand, >declares it to be "Rouge Queen" by the same mysterious and hitherto >unknown author. Opening it, you find that while the title 'Rogue >Queen' seems to be intended, the book was allegedly written by our >old friend L. Sprague deCamp. > > Can anyone think of another cover typo so careless? This is >definitely the worst I have ever seen. I agree that this one is a lulu. Isaac Asimov has also had some problems with getting his name spelled correctly on some of his books. Joel Upchurch Perkin-Elmer Southern Development Center 2486 Sand Lake Road/ Orlando, Florida 32809/ (305)850-1031 {decvax!ucf-cs, ihnp4!pesnta, vax135!petsd}!peora!joel ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Sep 85 0957-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #376 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 376 Today's Topics: Books - Card & MacAvoy & MacCaffrey & Niven & Varley & Some Reviews & Story Request & Request Answered, Miscellaneous - Nepotism (2 msgs) & Matter Transmission (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Orson Scott Card recommendation Date: 18 Sep 85 15:16:00 GMT Some postings on this net had alerted me to keep an eye out for works by Orson Scott Card, whom I had never read before. By a stroke of serendipity, the October issue of F&SF has a novelette of his in it and it's excellent. (Damn. I left the magazine at home and can't quite remember the title.) It's a post-holocaust story, where the holocaust is truly incidental. The story focuses on a crippled teacher and the economics of a marginal farming town. The teacher eats food raised by the rest, even though he takes no part in its production, because "he tills a far stonier and more barren ground." The story investigates his relationship with his students and the community as well as his inner wrestling with a set of massive handicaps. Moving without being maudlin or didactic. Thanks to those who pointed in the direction of Card in the first place. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON Date: 21 Sep 85 19:56:00 GMT >Why do people like TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON? I just read it >recently, and to my mind, it's a mediocre mystery story, with a >not-terribly- interesting computer tie-in, and a small amount of >poorly explained mysticism to justify the "fantasy" label. I am not terribly fond of the book, but it was enjoyable. The basic plot could have been from a ROCKFORD FILES and the fantasy, albeit only a minor part of the story, was well done. The reason I liked it is the writing style. MacAvoy writes clear, simple prose. She doesn't throw in 35 weird names and concepts. I will get around to reviewing JHEREG soon. It has some good prose too, but it requires too darn much memory to keep straight what is happening in what ultimately turns out to be a simple story. MacAvoy is for me easy reading. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: teklabs!donch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: Anne McCaffrey as a person Date: 19 Sep 85 16:22:42 GMT My wife and I both enjoy Anne McCaffrey's books. From her writing style it seems she is a "humanist", i.e. concentrates on feelings, emotional aspects of people, and human interpersonal relationships. This makes me wonder if her personality is being reflected in her stories. In other words, is she a warm, loving human being, interested in and interesting to others? Anyone in netland know Anne personally? I'd be fascinated to know what kind of a person she is. Don Chitwood Teklabs Tektronix, Inc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 85 23:23:08 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Niven's 'state' future history To: nep.pgelhausen@AMES-VMSB.ARPA >From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA > The other novel which is out so far in Niven's new universe of the > State is *A World Out of Time* -- which I also found very > enjoyable. As a vision of what might happen on Earth over the > next few *millions* of years, it was fascinating! "The OTHER novel"??? Please somebody tell me, what is the FIRST? _A_World_Out_of_Time_ is the first. _Integral_Trees_ is the second. _Integral_Trees_ was serialized in 1983 and 1984 in Analog, and was published in paperback in 1984 by Del Ray. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; long review, many Subject: spoilers Date: 19 Sep 85 23:27:14 GMT The characters in there all had computer-related names in common. You all must know what "foo" is as in "Lisa Foo" and "foobar". Furthermore, we have a guy called Hal- and you all must remember 2001: A Space Odyssey. And Kludge is explained, and of course we have an Osborne in there. It's quite intentional, I think... Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ From: tekecs!patcl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Pat Clancy) Subject: Brin, Sagan, etc. Date: 20 Sep 85 23:12:41 GMT > I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who didn't like > Startide Rising. Can't figure out why it won the Hugo and Nebula. > If this was the best of the year it must have been a very bad > year. Agreed! Startide Rising was awful, with one of the most unconvincing, most cliched, and generally worst depictions of aliens I've come across in some time. Possibly tied for "most overrated" with Gene Wulf's (sp?) extremely bad novel "Shadow of the Torturer". I just got a copy of Carl Sagan's new sf novel, "Contact". So far (about 1/4 through) it's quite good. As you might expect, the science is accurate, and explained in some detail; far more so than other works in the "sf by scientists" genre that I've come across (eg.: Forward's "Dragon's Egg" or anything by Scheffield). And as an additional bonus, he proves to be a good novelist (convincing characters, etc.). Another recent "hard sf" (ie., "real sf") novel I'd highly recommend is Eon, by Greg Bear. Pat Clancy, Tektronix ------------------------------ From: inuxd!keen@topaz.rutgers.edu (D Keen) Subject: Re: Stories where H. sap. gets its come-uppance Date: 20 Sep 85 18:23:01 GMT There is a "classic" short story whose title and author will, I'm sure, be supplied by some other netter in which a group of non-humans and humans of various evolutionary types are searching for the origin of humanity as a class. The gist of the conclusion is that humanity was a pest aboard a large and temporally different races spaceships, ala, the rat, aboard sailing ships. Don Keen AT&T something or other ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!norman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: SF Music; first SF; was Einstein right? Date: 20 Sep 85 19:41:00 GMT dorettas@iddic.UUCP (Doretta Schrock) writes: > Can anyone give me (no deluges or flames, please) title(s) of >SF coming from the assumption that there is *no* way around the >speed of light (i.e., no hyperspace, LucasDrive [the drive that >allows _Tau Zero_ by Poul Anderson is excellent, although the (sublight) ship does leave our solar system. _The Forever War_ by Joe Haldeman. Special relativity is a star performer in this one. There are lots of others, of course, but I assume you want spaceflight to be important. In her Hainish novels, Ursula LeGuin keep people at sublight speeds, but she breaks other rules. I can't think of others off the bat. Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work) (607)-272-7750 (home) ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Brian Herbert's SIDNEY'S COMET Date: 20 Sep 85 23:21:00 GMT And you were so close, too! Fritz Leiber (Jr.) has a son, Justin, who has had two books come out recently, *Beyond Rejection* and *The Sword and the Eye*. The first is SF, but I'm not sure about the other. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Writing offspring of writers Date: 18 Sep 85 09:10:58 GMT wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes: > [Remarks about SIDNEY'S COMET, an SF novel by Brian Herbert, son >of Frank...] By the way, this brings up a topic we could fuss over >-- parent-child groupings of SF writers. Anybody know of any other >SF writers whose parent(s) were also SF Writers, or who has a child >who writes SF professionally? > >The only parent-child combination that comes to mind in SF is Fritz >Leiber Sr. and Jr., and the Senior was an actor, not a writer...] I can think of only a couple offhand. Kurt Vonnegut's son Mark wrote a book about his nervous breakdown, called _Eden_Express_ I think, in the early '70s or thereabout. Vonnegut Sr. appears to Mark in a dream in one poignantly funny section set in a nuthouse. It was a fine book. I haven't seen anything by Mark V. since. William Burroughs had a son, who died some time recently. Under the name William Burroughs III, he published two novels: _Speed_ and _Kentucky_Ham_. He was good! _Speed_ appears to be slightly fictionalized autobiography. WSBIII sounded to me like a young, innocent, idealistic WSB Sr., only on speed and psychedelics AND heroin, instead of just opiates. _Speed_ is an amusing and hair-raising picture of the teen-agers' drug world in the late '60s or thereabouts (all these dates are approximate because I haven't looked at the books for a while). _Kentucky_Ham_ is also about addiction. Lastly, Vladimir Nabokov fathered one son, Dmitri, who used to study at the Longy School of Music in Cambridge, MA, where I worked briefly & had access to the student files. I happened to read a charming letter from Dmitri, written in 1967, saying he wouldn't be able to come back from Europe unless he were granted a scholarship. I believe he became an opera singer. However, he has also translated into English, both in collaboration with VN and alone I think, a substantial number of the elder Nabokov's Russian novels and stories (early works produced before VN's emigration to America and "love affair with the English language"). Dmitri N. is VERY good. And under Miscellaneous: In the mid-Sixties, in NYC, I met Tim Marquand, son of J.P. Marquand, who was a fairly well-known American writer in the '40s and '50s. Tim was a jazz musician. He lived across the street from the Five Spot, where Thelonious Monk was most often working in those days, and Tim hosted a great many jam sessions for a spectrum of musicians ranging from cutting-edge geniuses to earnest beginners like me. He appeared to have a nice income and no particular aspirations, but I didn't know him well. Judith Abrahms {ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 85 03:14:19 EDT From: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: matter transmission you're damned right i wouldn't go to sleep. all these arguments could apply equally well if this wasn't a duplicate of me, but just a simulation. someone kills me and puts in my place a robot that acts exactly like me that they've created by observing me. no one can distinguish the robot from me. it's identical, to external observation, to the previous me. it can even have been programmed to think it's always been me and has all my memories. (Perhaps they got them out of my dead brain.) now your claim is that since this robot is indistinguishable from me, i should volunteer for the procedure. what's the difference between this simulation and a copy made on a molecule by molecule basis? again, i'm not arguing over whether anyone, including me, would be able to distinguish between the original and the copy. i just claim that the original has past into a state that can only be described as complete, irreversible death. let me say it one more way. imagine that we can make the copy without damaging the original at all. according to the arguments i'm hearing, if you shoot the original through the head, it will not experience death now, since there is a copy of it. this is plainly ridiculous. look, i'm sorry i'm shooting down this neat, often used plot device, but it's simply absurd. i'll believe matter transmission is possible. and i'll believe matter duplication is possible. but you can't convince me that matter transmission via duplication is possible. ------------------------------ Date: Sat 21 Sep 85 01:39:43-MDT From: Ron Fowler Subject: Matter transmission and consciousness I think the heart of the question about the continuity of consciousness (or "self") in re-creation of the information contained in the brain must await a more concise definition of "consciousness". The subject seems to be avoided in the popular science literature, but it's fun to speculate. I've personally been exposed to two very different schools of thought: 1) The metaphysical view: the "self" is an extra-physical phenomenon, and, though existing within the framework of the material universe, is somehow independent of it. Consciousness cannot be defined in terms of anything that has a physical existence in the universe, and each "self" is unique. 2) Consciousness is nothing more than a configuration of information contained within a human brain, and will eventually be described (and by inference, replicated?) fully in terms of information theory. I've seen little evidence for the first viewpoint, and most of the arguments in its favor seem to be a little tainted by the obvious desire to express something as personal as the "self" in mystical terms (to be expected, I suppose, since it's a mystical viewpoint. But how can a metaphysical theory be quantized in a physical universe? Hard to nail it down ... ). The latter view seems to have more reliable credentials: for example, physical damage to the human brain can cause drastic personality modification; drugs reacting chemically within the brain have the same effect. This seems to imply that a sufficiently sophisticated information science can duplicate (and create anew) human personality. Maybe the two ideas can be combined: if all the information in my brain were precisely replicated within the guts of a computer, and that computer had outside-world sensors, would my "self" begin receiving information from both my own "sensors" *and* the computer's? A tantalizing question ... move the computer to the surface of Mars, fire it up, and I can close my eyes and take part in another world, without ever leaving my comfortable chair by the fireplace ... make 50 copies of the computer, and drive me insane with an overflow of sensory input ... "play" my information into an "erased" brain in another body or 2, and I can be in two places at once. On the other hand, a "self" may not be unique, and these copies may feel no more "duality" than fraternal twins. ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: matter transmission and duplication Date: 21 Sep 85 19:32:45 GMT >How do you know that your personality DOESN'T die every night, and >get recreated imperfectly from backups in the morning? Imagine >this were really the case; say it had just been discovered, and you >read it this morning in Science magazine. Would it matter? Would >you avoid going to sleep, since it WAS death to do so? I can't see >as how it would make ANY difference, so why should I object to a >perfect copy replacing me? As long as the change over were done >gracefully. If I knew it was happening every night, then my life would have only been a few hours long and that it would end within hours. Then dying probably would not matter much to me. But if it were the first time I was dying and being recreated, I would avoid it like death. Which is what it is. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Sep 85 1011-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #377 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 377 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Critics (4 msgs) & The Problems Of Science Fiction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Critics and how DID we form our dislikes for them? Date: 16 Sep 85 14:24:05 GMT I see an important point in Steve Zeve's comments about the anti-critic bias. FOR THE MOST PART, those with no formal training in literature (say, those who have taken few university level courses) have only been exposed to "backyard" critics: high school teachers, peers, and that mouthy Arts major down the hall in residence. FOR THE MOST PART, those same people have only been exposed to national or international writers: those who have managed to interest a major publisher. Is it any wonder that the writers come out looking better than the critics? I mean no disrespect to high school teachers and the like -- in my five years of high school (we go to grade 13 in Ontario), I had two good English teachers (and three mediocre ones) which is a pretty good average. But the writers we read have gone through a more extensive culling process than the critics we listen to...unless we happen to find ourselves in advanced literature classes where we can read the work of national or international level critics. Given the basic high school introduction to literature, we are hardly likely to pick up a book of good criticism. The only other place we could possibly see high level criticism would be in newspaper and magazine book reviews. I will certainly concede there may be book reviews that treat SF in a competent way -- the New York Times Review of Books has been mentioned several times on the Net as one such publication. However, the Times is hard to find in Southern Ontario. I can choose one of the local papers (which are just as bush league as many high school teachers) or some newspaper/magazine which has more national coverage. Unfortunately, the newspapers/magazines that I can get my hands on do not pay any sort of attention to SF. As an example: the Toronto Globe and Mail (which is as close to a national newspaper as Canada has) published a review a few months ago of a new line of quality paperbacks that Penguin was bringing out, featuring Canadian short story writers. The writers were W.P.Kinsella, Leon Rooke, Audrey Thomas, and Spider Robinson. The Globe assumed that any literate person would have heard of the first three (highly unlikely outside Canada, and not so likely inside) but felt they had to go to great lengths to explain who Spider Robinson was. To them, SF was some little-read literary ghetto that needed an explanation. Conclusion: the critics with which we have the most experience are not in the major leagues; the writers are. Of course many of the writers are bad, but they are bad by major league standards (not to mention that they have been edited by major league editors). Is it any wonder that some people develop a knee-jerk response against critics? Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: The Literature of Ideas Date: 16 Sep 85 13:36:48 GMT > Item: Counterexamples to the assertion that SF is stylistically > flat: The Demolished Man, Golem 100,... Golem 100? you call it style, I call it absolute unadulterated trash. Yuck, ick, wash my eyes out with soap. I did, however, like The Demolished Man. David Albrecht ------------------------------ Subject: Art ?? Date: 20 Sep 85 14:11:59 PDT (Fri) From: Dave Godwin Have any of you folks read the Gormenghast trilogy, or parts there of ? I'll reserve further discussion until I hear more. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 85 17:18:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- Art --- "Art" is a subjective judgement. Everyone (I assume) has a set of things which he/se considers "art". Much of our personal set coincides with the sets of the majority of individuals in our society, thus establishing a set of things that most everyone considers "art". Incidentally establishing an *appearance* that there is a general definition of "art". To attempt to define this non-existent general definition will get you nowhere.....someone will *always* disagree with some point or another. So why don't we stop arguing that each other's definitions are not valid and accept them for what they are -- personal preference? Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY, PART X (FINIS) Date: 19 Sep 85 21:28:09 GMT THE PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE FICTION TODAY PART X: A Prescription For The Future by Davis Tucker Yes, science fiction has problems. Everything does. Some are serious, some are trivial, albeit irritating (such as my pet peeve about stupid puns, especially in titles). The past nine installments didn't even scratch the surface, but I hope that at the very least they stirred some serious thinking about whether or not these problems can be solved, or if they are problems at all. No one who is interested in science fiction should accept complacency, or begin to pat himself or herself on the back for a genre well done. It's very easy to get in a rut, and very difficult to get out of one. But a valid point can be raised against these essays, that they have been soley concerned with illuminating the problems of science fiction, not with possible remedies. The question remains - "What must be done"? We gain nothing in moving forward by extolling our virtues. We must eradicate our faults and our weaknesses, ruthlessly, or we must accept them and live with them. Ignoring the problems that are in science fiction, or acting as if they're strengths, will only lead to further degradation of the field. Close your eyes and imagine bookshelves of Hobbits and rayguns and magic swords and slave wenches and computer nerds and one-dimensional personalities. Imagine Robert Asprin (or whomever you would like to substitute) as the guiding light for fantasy writers of the 21st century, and Spider Robinson as the new Isaac Asimov (okay, it *is* a step up, but not much). In other words, take a moment to extrapolate the field of science fiction, which spends so much of its energy on extrapolation. What will science fiction be like in twenty-five years? Will it even exist? What form will it take, and how can we influence that form now, so that it will improve? Even the most diehard Star Trek fan will agree that the genre could stand some improvement. But what is that improvement to be? Some would have the field move strictly back to its roots, to the Great Idea and hard science and predictions. Others would have it move into the mind and the surreal, become experimental in all ways, and cast off the chains of its past. Both are doctrinaire and dogmatic. What is important, most important to the continued survival and flourishing of science fiction is that the quality of the writing improve. Good writing can be about anything; great writing could probably be about nothing - not that this is necessarily admirable or desirable. Hoary plot devices must be discarded, wherever they occur. Bad dialogue needs to be weeded out with napalm. Overused characters need to be put out to pasture, right, Gandalf? A breath of fresh air is needed, in the sense that the field has become too resistant to experimentation, especially by new authors. Old authors need to draw on their familiarity with the genre to branch out; if anyone has leeway to experiment and expand his or her literary horizons, it's an established writer. Science fiction has an amazing resiliency with this sort of thing. Heinlein, for all his faults, went out on a limb with "Stranger In A Strange Land" and it paid off. Silverberg's renascence with "Majipoor Chronicles" and "Lord Valentine's Castle" is another example. Gene Wolfe, though he still is a "new" author, surprised everyone with the popularity of "The Book Of The New Sun". The readership of science fiction, fans and casual readers, need to consciously try out something different now and then, or they will ignore the greatness that is at the very heart of the concept of science fiction, the willingness to experiment and attempt more than seems possible. There was a time in the field, in the late Sixties, during the days of the New Wave, when discovering a new author, a new way of writing, and a new slant was very important to many readers. Now, unfortunately, it seems that too many are satisfied with sequels and trilogies and fluff-filled fantasy by formula authors. Quality of writing *seems* to be running a distand third behind predictable characters and fast- moving plots. Great writing, quality writing, does not mean fancy sentences and big words and heavy symbolism. Writing is not an end in itself, and neither is it merely a means of telling a story. Quality writing means attention to details like plot twists and avoiding loose ends, characters who live and breathe and talk like they were people, not cartoon characters. Real people don't expostulate for pages, like Jubal Harshaw or Lazarus Long, and real people aren't archetypical heroes and villains. Quality writing means both a simultaneous ability to make the reader totally forget he is reading, if he chooses, or to allow him to realize how much the act of reading is working on his experience. The basics of building believable human beings and believable situations and intricate plots and detailed societies have been around for years, and are well defined and understood by most authors, be they science fiction or mainstream. James Clavell worked just as hard to make "Shogun" believable as Herbert did with "Dune". Motivation, of a society or an individual or a destiny, requires some kind of internal consistency, unless the novel is one that is deliberately inconsistent, such as some of Robert Sheckley's or R. A. Lafferty's work, or much meta-fiction. Plot resolution also requires care and especially in science fiction, that the author avoid the many cheap devices that science fiction's imaginative freedom has strewn in his path to entice him from the straight and narrow road of correct and consistent plotting. Quality is *not* that elusive, it is not unattainable by even a merely competent writer; we do not ask that all books written be "Heart Of Darkness". It *is* work, and it *is* personal pride, and it is always easier to go half-way than the whole distance, in writing as in any effort. But the extra work required yields a much more satisfactory result. I'm not saying that every science fiction novel should be like "The Book Of The New Sun". But the quality that is so apparent in that work should be a goal for every science fiction novel. Sensitivity to subject matter and a refusal to take the easy out in a plot situation should be encouraged. Puns should be outlawed for ten years until the next James Joyce appears and decides he wants to write science fiction. As a concrete suggestion, I think more works by South American surrealist authors, of whom there are many, should be published in science fiction magazines and by science fiction publishing houses - and don't condemn it as boring literature, or highbrow, because much of it is exuberant, interesting, and well-written. Hard science fiction needs to take a long look at its traditional insensitivity to its characters and its dialogue. Exposition, so necessary to science fiction, needs to become better integrated into story lines. It gets tiring to read page after page of characters talking at each other, explaining their society or some wonderful concept or marvelous invention. The sort of thing Gardner Dozois called "The Great Steam Grommet Works Of The Future Travelog", where the reader gets a guided tour of the marvelous future. These sorts of things can be revealed during the course of the story, in subtle and less obtrusive ways. Science fiction could use a better understanding of its symbolism, of the ideas and metaphors which are being manipulated to provide resonance and meaning beyond what is written. The field needs to indulge in that great imaginative sweep that is afforded it, like no other genre, that freedom to say and do and create anything. No other literary field can send a man back in time to confront his father, no other field can turn a man into a machine, no other field can destroy planets and minds and entire global societies. These situations are wrought with frightening symbolic implications, deep psychological conflicts, and incredible mythic resonances. They are filled with enormous potential for exciting new directions (as cliched as that phrase is, in science fiction). Mining and exploring the vast reaches of the genre's freedom of expression will require effort, and discipline, and willingness to experiment, much more so than science fiction has done in its past. I love science fiction. We all do, I think. And we want to see it improve, and expand, and capture more readers, and pay its authors more money, and to mature and grow up from its beginnings without ignoring its past. If I have been harsh on its failings, it is only because of the hope I hold for its awesome potential as literature. I myself would like to see a time when science fiction is no longer considered merely a "genre", but a large part of the literary scene, as biographies and spy novels are considered now. When the field becomes viable for any and every writer who chooses to write science fiction, when the definition of what is and is not science fiction is of clinical and critical unimportance. There is no field in Western literature which can afford as much freedom and imagination and room for great writing as science fiction. There is no artform today which has so much unexplored potential, not music, not art, not photography. I honestly believe that science fiction stands poised at a very important crossroads in its development, a point at which its popular appeal has risen to new heights, where it is finally gaining some grudging acceptance in academic circles, and where it is finally reaching that stage of maturity from which great art in any artform can arise. Events in art and literature often move at a snail's pace for years, and then there will be a sudden, intense flowering of genius. I think science fiction is on the brink of that heady precipice of greatness, and I want nothing more than for it to leap over it unafraid and with all the necessary skills to maintain itself as viable and popular. Remember that no artform can remain static and survive, and even if it moves in some direction, that not all of those directions will guarantee any survival. Poetry used to be widely read and published and appreciated, as little as 50 years ago, but it is fast becoming, unfortunately, a dead artform for a number of reasons. It may still resurrect itself, but the lesson is clear. Classical music is hardly being composed at all anymore - you could count on one hand the number of new composers with a substantial body of work being performed by orchestras around the world. Science fiction *can* survive, I think it *must* survive, but it needs to take a long, hard look at its accepted tenets and its preconceptions and re-evaluate its role. And with luck and hard work it can become much, much more than what it is today. I think we all have enjoyed the discussions that have been spawned by these essays, from substantial insights into the nature of artistic appreciation to spleen-venting, from impassioned, reasoned defenses of favorite works to investigations of the author-reader relationship, from agreements and disagreements to the consensus that is sometimes reached. I hope no one has found these essays offensive, once the dust settled, and I hope no one thinks that I have no respect for his or her opinion, for all that I may have disagreed with it. It's been fun. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Sep 85 1013-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #378 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 378 Today's Topics: Books - Kelly & Killian & Kingsbury & Zelazny (2 msgs) & First SF (2 msgs) & STL travel, Miscellaneous - Star Wars (2 msgs) & Scientology & Nepotism (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: PLANET OF WHISPERS by James P. Kelly Date: 20 Sep 85 15:04:39 GMT The jacket reads: The three-thousand-year-old thearchy which rules the planet Aseneshesh faces certain disaster as the Chani civilization is racked by famine and rebellion -- a famine caused by the alien "messengers", who are willing to trade grain for Chani blood, and nothing else. Young Curin is ordered by his master, the Lord Protector of the Thearchy, to carry a secret message to the distant highlands. It is a perilous journey in the best of times, and for an unworldly scholar, it is certain death. But Curin's adventure among the lionlike people of his planet is a revelation, and he will learn, ultimately, that nothing is as he believed it to be: not his world, not his master, not his mission...not even his god, not even himself. As frequently happens, the jacket description makes the book sound more interesting than it really turns out to be. The main characters in the book are nonhumans, and they deal almost exclusively with each other. This type of story (that is, with little or no human involvement) is rather rare in SF; unfortunately, the author isn't especially convincing. (For an instance of where it works is Lee Killough's THE MONITOR, THE MINERS, AND THE SHREE.) The story starts out interestingly enough but it never picks up steam. I never got particularly involved with any of the characters, and the only interesting concept wasn't really developed. I give the book 2 stars (mediocre). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian Date: 20 Sep 85 11:51:08 GMT The Canadian patriot in me feels its necessary to point out to the world that Crawford Killian is one of the many fine Canadian science fiction writers (others include this year's Nebula winner William Gibson, Spider Robinson, Donald Kingsbury, and Wayland Drew. rjs ------------------------------ From: cxsea!zuker@topaz.rutgers.edu (Hunter Zuker) Subject: Re: More from the backlist Date: 17 Sep 85 17:43:29 GMT > Courtship Rite by Donald Kingsbury (SFBook Club) Rating: > > I'm specifically NOT rating this book (that is not a rating of > zero, but no rating, a small but semantically important > difference). This is another book that I stopped halfway through, > and while the book is well written, I simply found myself unable > to tolerate some of the strong and rather graphic concepts it was > dealing with. > . . . The book is rather graphic, quite intense, and doesn't pull > its punches. If you can handle the subject matter, I think you're > in for a treat, but this book is definitely not for the weak of > heart or full of stomach. All true, yet there is a lot about love and affinity in this book. I felt it was a well balanced book. I would highly recommend it for those who enjoy reading about well thought out and consistent cultures. It's one of my favorites. Hunter Zuker Computer X, Inc. Kent, Wa. {{uw-beaver!ssc-vax}|mnetor}!cxsea!muaddib!zuker ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Catching up on the backlist Date: 19 Sep 85 02:44:18 GMT *** SPOILER WARNING *** I disagree somewhat with the notion that Merlin "had" to be paranoid because he "was an Amberite". This is patently false. Merlin was raised in the Courts of Chaos. If one looks back at "The Courts of Chaos" one discovers that the Princes of Amber are all extremely chaotic in their personal behavior, almost classically so. They maneuver for power, they kill one another, they manipulate, connive, and most things are at the whim of the moment. The society in the Courts, on the other hand, is the core of Law at the heart of Chaos. They are extremely honorable, chivalric, having invented and holding to incredibly complex codes of honor. Merlin was raised in the midst of this. OF COURSE he is naive. Even his exposure to Amber was only enough to make him realize that he might have to worry about his assailant being one of the family. It took the Princes of Amber years to learn the paranoia they needed to recognize plots under every bushel. Merlin is just a child yet, by comparison. Also, Merlin is a Nerd. He focuses so intensely on the accomplishment of his interests that he completely fails to consider their consequences. This is possibly a family trait. It isn't completely believable that he is a nerd, but he DOES fit the profile. I WAS rather bothered by the "cute" way that it took so long to make it clear that Frakir is a strangling-cord. That was annoying, and clumsily handled. One other thing bothering me. If Amberite physiology makes one strong enough to heft and throw around casually, items weighing ~150 lbs, then it would make one MUCH faster than the "olympic class" athletics which Merlin and Luke engaged in through school. Otherwise, not a bad book, but I want to know where the "green crystal cave" came from. If it was one of those islands of reality which was swept up by the Pattern, then I can sort of see it. If it is in Primal Amber or in Chaos, then why cannot standard magic work there? And if it is in Shadow, then the Logres ought to be able to get around it. Hutch ------------------------------ From: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Charles R. Speegle) Subject: Zelany's Trumps_of_Doom Date: 20 Sep 85 19:44:46 GMT After reading Trumps_of_Doom for the 2nd time I feel like asking questions and putting forth my own ideas. There appears to be a legion of agents aiding Merlin. Dan Martinez may be one of them. Whose are they? I feel that they aren't Corwin's, but are agents of Chaos. Random didn't have any idea and most of the Amberites were in Amber and appeared to out of touch with the Shadows. Also George Hanson, I think he is also from Chaos. Merlin felt that he was familiar in some way. Probably someone he knew from Chaos. The burning question, where in Shadow is Corwin? At several times in the book it is mentioned that he's now crazy, also other things. I feel that he's crazy due to Amber blood having been spilled on the pattern that he created. I also think that Luke would be responsible for this act and probably grapped Corwin and then found out about Avalon's pink powder through Corwin. Enough rambling for now. Charlie ARPA: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS.EDU UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!speegle ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 85 19:37:23 EDT From: Bob Webber Subject: Good First SF and first of SF-LOVERS >Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #368 > ... Her opinion of science fiction was extremely low. I asked >her to read "Mortal Gods" which was a 3 page short story by Orson >Scott Card, and her reaction was quite favorable. I think that for >those who have poor opinions of the quality of SF, Card is a very >good writer. first: it is probably unethical to push sf on people who think it is junk. afterall, you don't want little old ladies in supermarkets trying to get you to read the national enquirer, do you? second: Orson Scott Card is a very good writer for people who have a high opinion of sf. people that have a low opinion of sf should be encouraged to read all the IS SF ART? debates that have occurred on sf-lovers since sf-lovers started *(footnote). remember, the principle is: reward good behaviour and punish bad behaviour. * anybody know when sf-lovers started (i assume a different birthdate on USENET vs ARPANET, was the marriage immediate?)? BOB (webber@red.rutgers.edu) p.s. i started on Have Space Suit Will Travel (RAH). in chess, it has been noticed that the growth of a player's understanding of the game tends to follow the chronology of chess history. perhaps it is best to start with 50's (40's ?) sf and then grow toward the 80's. of course there are still writers writing 50's sf (which confuses things, but isn't necessarily bad). p.p.s. hand someone a harliquin romance and when they come back telling you it was a lowsy book, you say: Of course, after all, it isn't SF. ------------------------------ From: im4u!jsq@topaz.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: First SF book -- an "anti-suggestion" Date: 21 Sep 85 23:15:53 GMT Another anti-suggestion: don't give somebody a book similar to what they're used to in some other genre (including "mainstream" and "literary"). They will only see the similarities, but not the sf aspects, because they won't understand those. So they'll only see part of the book and will interpret it as a flawed book of whatever genre they're used to. John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@sally.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@ut-sally.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 85 01:04:42 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Slower than light space travel To: iddic!dorettas@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU > From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock) > Can anyone give me (no deluges or flames, please) title(s) of SF > coming from the assumption that there is *no* way around the speed > of light (i.e., no hyperspace, LucasDrive [the drive that allows > you to go anywhere in the Universe in 20 minutes], etc.). Well, most of the works of Arthur C. Clarke, Gregory Benford, Lee Correy (aka G. Harry Stine), Alexis Gillilan, Jerry Pournelle, Charles Sheffield, John Varley, and James White concern space travel in the relatively near future and as such do not involve FTL (faster than light travel). I am someone bothered by the rarity of non-FTL interstellar travel stories. Especially since I strongly believe in the possibility of, and importance of, interstellar flight but not in FTL. My favorite non-FTL interstellar epic is the trilogy _Young_Rissa_, _Rissa_and_Tregare_, and _The_Long_View_ by F.M. Busby (does anyone know of anything else by this author?) (Is this a pseudonym for Robert Heinlein? Very similar style.) (Actually, they do invent FTL near the end of the last book, but it is not important to the plot.) Also, _Tau_Zero_ by Poul Anderson, which is an a class of its own. Actually, I can't think of any others, except _Universe_ by Robert Heinlein. But that is part of his future history, which later includes FTL. Can anyone think of any others? ...Keith ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Blaster aim in STAR WARS Date: 19 Sep 85 17:11:57 GMT psc@lzwi.UUCP (Paul S. R. Chisholm) writes: >Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi >knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it. Far >more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards his >(her?) sword. This one I don't buy. The Jedi react to where the firer is aiming, not to the blaster bolt itself. (Yes, where they are really aiming, not where they are trying to aim.) Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ From: leadsv!sas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart) Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons) Date: 18 Sep 85 22:19:25 GMT chris@leadsv.UUCP (Chris Salander) writes: >According to rumors I have heard, if you removed the stormtrooper's >armor, you would see that they are all CLONES! > >(And that Obi-Wan is really OB1, original body one!) But I thought Stromtroopers came from the Acadamy. Biggs, Luke's best friend graduated from the acadamy, and he told Luke he was jumping ship to join the rebelion (You have to have read the book). I thought Biggs was going to become a Stormtrooper on the ship. The only problem with this is that Luke was also going to go to the Acadamy. Later when busting into Leia's cell, she memtions that he looks too small to be a Stormtrooper. So if Luke was to short to be a Stormtrooper, and Stromtroopers came from the Acadamy, and Luke was going to go to the Acadamy, what type of Imperial Personel does the Acadamy churn out. Scott A. Stewart LMSC - Sunnyvale ------------------------------ Date: Sat 21 Sep 85 20:53:53-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #370 RJS, discussing Scientology: > Postings on scientology are wholly appropriate to the science > fiction net, as anyone aware of both that religions history and > the history of sf is aware. Fact: scientology was created by a > ... [Several facts follow] Where does one discover these things? Everything I know about Scientology is by hearsay. Bard ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Brian Herbert's SIDNEY'S COMET Date: 19 Sep 85 22:09:00 GMT wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) writes: >By the way, this brings up a topic we could fuss over -- >parent-child groupings of SF writers. Anybody know of any other SF >writers whose parent(s) were also SF Writers, or who has a child >who writes SF professionally? > >[For that matter, I don't recall hearing much about the children of >*any* SF pros. Do Clarke, Heinlein, Zelazny, or most others of the >SF "big-names" have any children? (Individually, not all together! >:-) If they do, I never heard of them... Most male writers seem to >give an impression of bachelorhood, or never mention families, >except for wives, in the little autobiographical blurbs or story >introductions they write now and then. I don't recall a female SF >author discussing family, either. Ursula K LeGuin has (I believe) two daughters. Elizabeth, who lives in Berkeley most of the time, recently had a daughter herself. Elizabeth is a concert violist and an exceptional musician. She claimed once to have no interest in writing as a profession. With two writing parents, and a grandfather who was (I believe) also a writer, one would imagine that it might be rather tiresome competing. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 85 19:18:14 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: SF writer parent-child groupings >From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) >Anybody know of any other SF writers whose parent(s) were also >SF Writers, or who has a child who writes SF professionally? > >I don't recall a female SF author discussing family, either. > >The only parent-child combination that comes to mind in SF >is Fritz Lieber Sr. and Jr., and the Senior was an actor, not >a writer. In the edition I read of MZ Bradley's _Bloody Sun_, a semi-autobiographical essay is included, which gives some details of her family. I have heard about, but not seen, a book written by her son, [first name not recalled] Zimmer. It is purportedly set in some version of the Darkover universe. A gift for writing is not synonymous with a gift for story-telling. Further, I don't think that writing, story-telling, or whatever you choose to call it, is something that runs in families. Said families probably tend to be more articulate than most, but the Muses are idiosyncratic and highly personal demons. Eudaimonically, Paula ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Sep 85 1034-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #379 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 24 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 379 Today's Topics: Books - Niven (2 msgs) & Sherrell & Tolkien & Female Authors (2 msgs) & Story Request Answered, Miscellaneous - Typos (2 msgs) & Star Wars (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Sep 85 18:37:48 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Planetary maps on the Ringworld >From: Tom Wadlow >Paula Sanch points out that the Protectors induced large-scale >vulcanism on the Pak home planet to get metal to build the >evacuation fleet. Thus, the Map of Pak might be unrecognizable. >... >If they are going to "decorate" the Ringworld with Maps of >Earth, Kzin, etc. (which surely must be built from recorded >information), a Map of Pak (before the fall) is not unreasonable. Good reasoning, except: Those maps which were explored were populated with samples of the indigenous species. Would one thus expect to find _Homo habilis_ on that map (assuming it is a map of the Pak homeworld)? Another native species is the 'Tree of Life' virus-infected tuber. Which would automatically induce the creation of protectors from the original genetic stock. Wouldn't those protectors then fare forth into the vasty spaces of suitable environment and exterminate the (equally changed as H. sapiens from the parent stock) inhabitants? I don't see that kind of sentimentality in protectors, that they would want to recreate, or memorialize, the homeworld. All the other maps were of (relatively) nearby planets. Perhaps it is a map of the Trinoc planet? Postulatively, Paula ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 85 19:54:48 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-L Vol 10: #367 >From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA (R. Hartman) >> The other novel which is out so far in Niven's new >>universe of the State is *A World Out of Time*--which I >>also found very enjoyable. > >"The OTHER novel"??? Please somebody tell me, what is the >FIRST? _A_World_Out_of_Time_ came out a while back ... >The above message seems to imply that there is at least one >other novel in the State series, could someone supply the >title for me....I would be interested in reading it. I think you may have missed the fact that the poster was discussing _The Integral Trees_, which is definitely in the same universe as _A World Out of Time_. AWOoT was first serialized in *Galaxy* (of fond memory) in the mid-seventies, I think. Certainly, as you state, that is "a while back". Of course, IT was also serialized--in *Analog*. Somehow, I've never seen the State universe as part of Known Space. There is no indication of a program to terraform planets in the Known Space universe; rather, they sent unmanned probes to specific systems, to explore for habitable worlds (remember what happened when the probe explored Plateau?) and signal back whether a colonizable planet were there. If they had sufficiently dependable systems to use unmanned probes, then why would there be a need for corpsicle explorers? And why would they choose to salvage the personalities of the corpsicles, rather than whatever reusable organs they had. Remember, the Earth of Known Space was big on organ banks, and not interested in personalities. There would doubtless have been some referendum which would have mandated the salvage of body parts, not personalities; and the World Government was answerable in some fashion to the people. Also, there was no mention of a class of non-citizens. The State did not appear to be answerable to its citizens, and had outcastes, where the World Government would have simply salvaged those people for the organ banks. ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE SPACE PRODIGAL by Carl Sherrell Date: 20 Sep 85 15:22:48 GMT The jacket reads: Philip 733-2209-1, pilot for the Federated League, defied his government's oldest law to return to an Earth abandoned centures before...and Earth transformed...an Earth whose inhabitants had become masters of magic. What he found branded him a criminal and started a war--a battle between deadly technology and equally deadly illusion--that neither side could hope to win. He could not forsee that an enemy stronger than either side was soon to reveal its terrifying powers. Or that Earth and the Federated League would join foces in a desperate struggle against a foe whose very existence threatened to end all human life forever! Don't be deceived. The book's a lot better than the jacket makes it look. The story starts out with the following setting. A large number of people left earth before a looming catastrophe could take place. These folks travelled to another solar system and raised a new civilization, one predicated on genetic manipulation and suppression of emotions. Meanwhile, the earth was wracked with upheavals of various sorts, but many people survived and developed some "magical" abilities. The folks on earth remember that the others left and have some ill feelings toward those who fled. Earth hasn't been visited by the genetically superior people for hundreds of years, and the planet is still off limits. The breeding program hasn't worked perfectly, however, and a number of the space farers are discontent. One, Philip, uses the opportunity of a scouting mission to visit Earth. Enough of the setting. I found the story very engrossing. There are a number of interesting themes, and there's always at least two things going on at a time. The characters seem real and mostly sympathetic. The blend of fantasy and technology is fairly good. The pocketbook is 512 pages long. My only serious complaint is that the author tried to do too much in one book. He had enough good material for three books, and I found the development at the end of the book to be a little thin compared to what had gone before. I heartily recommend this book, giving it 3.5 stars (very very good). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: Sun 22 Sep 85 12:44:00-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: LOTR and Fantasy Paul Chisholm's thesis seems to be that "fantasy" became popular after the publication of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings in "1965". Unfortunately, LOTR was actually published ten years earlier: the first volume in 1954 and the other two in 1955, by George Allan and Unwin. It was first distributed in the USA in 1956 by Houghton Mifflin. The work was reviewed in the Herald Tribune, in The New York Times, and in The Nation, all in 1956. And almost nothing happened. Maybe it just wasn't "steam engine time"? Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: cbuxc!dim@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dennis McKiernan) Subject: Sheri Tepper and Patricia McKillip Date: 18 Sep 85 20:49:41 GMT Sheri Tepper has a wonderful gift: with a few sketches of her authorial pen she draws an entire culture/civilization. The world of the *True Game* is drawn so. And I cannot but admire her "chasm" civilization that Mavin visited in book 2 of the Mavin Manyshaped saga. God! Bridgers, Maintainers, etc.; giant roots reaching down past the Lost Bridge, all the way to the bottom; cutting roots on each side just the right length to reach one another and be grafted together to form a span; she has a wonderful imagination! But description alone is not sufficient to tell a great tale (Isn't it interesting that some of the pioneering SF stories were nothing more than descriptions of the strange, with little if any character development). Sheri also has the gift to show some of the internal motive/drive/development of her characters. In recent discussions on the net, several have pointed out that many of their favorite authors are women. Risking being called a male chauvanist, I believe that women *in general* are better at describing/understanding the internals of a character, and of showing character growth, whereas men are better at detailing action and describing how-things-work. Sheri delves into the inner workings of her characters very well, and so does Patrica McKillip. McKillip in her Hed trilogy *and* in her Forgotten Beasts of Eld manages to evoke the most haunting scenes of solitude that I've ever read: i.e., the protagonist in "Hed" shapechanged into an elk-like creature and spent a winter in the mountain valleys, and I could *taste* the solitude of his existence (nought but the vast silence of the empty wind); and in "Eld" the sorceress spent long days alone atop her mountain in the airy quiet. Perhaps some day my characters will grow and change to the same degree as theirs do... it's not that my characters don't develop throughout my tales (action is my forte), it's just that Tepper and McKillip are so very good at what they do. Perhaps my collegue Brust would care to comment. Dennis L. McKiernan ihnp4!cbuxc!dim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 85 18:14:52 EDT From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Cherryh vs. McCaffrey >> Give me McCaffrey any day, that way I won't have to think >> too much. (continues with spirited defense of Cherryh) >From: edison!dca@topaz.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) >McCaffrey may be simplistic but for the most part at least I feel >her characters and plots are much more interesting. I always read >about Cherryh's books and think they sound like they should be >good. ... I am invariably disappointed. While Cherryh's worlds >are fairly imaginative, a societal description doesn't carry the >book for me. My general feeling is that the characters are, if >anything, more simplistic than McCaffrey's and much less >interesting. The plots are usually dry and not gripping at all. >... This is, of course, all purely personal judgements and >preference. It is immensely gratifying to find that my opinion is shared by others. I have tried to like Cherryh, and it is simply beyond me. She tackles ambitious subjects; perhaps her problem is that they are *too* ambitious, i.e., beyond her capabilities. Like others in this forum, I must read and assimilate correctly some rather large volumes of scientific literature. One tends, in such circumstances, to wish the reading one does for relaxation to be readily accessible (the proverbial 'good read') on first reading, and my personal preference is for a book that will supply further insights on re-reading. I admit I do not expect McCaffrey to *improve* with re-reading, but I assert that she *usually* entertains me, and for that I am grateful. Preferentially, Paula ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Boring Aliens Date: 20 Sep 85 22:00:00 GMT The author's name is George Alec Effinger. And I agree that it's a highly hilarious little twirl, although I don't know about either race appearing boring. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo... Date: 20 Sep 85 11:47:30 GMT The first ACE edition of Spider Robinson's TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH proudly exclaims: TIIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH rjs ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo... Date: 29 Sep 85 07:34:09 GMT > From: Peter G. Trei > Can anyone think of another cover typo so careless? This is > definitely the worst I have ever seen. How about Belmont Books on their 1967 book TIME UNTAMED? The binding says: TIME UNTAMED - Azimov, Bradbury, others He wasn't exactly an unknown author even then. (He gets misspelled in another Bluejay Book also, on the title page on SHERLOCK HOLMES THROUGH TIME AND SPACE, as "Issac Asimov".) But misspelling both the author's name *and* the title on the cover must be a new record. This isn't an on-the-binding error, but Ace Books, in their "Thieves' World" books, has an introduction which has 7 typos on one page--and they've re-used it uncorrected in several of the books! Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.rutgers.edu (john) Subject: Re: Re: Empire Troops Uniforms (and Blas Date: 18 Sep 85 16:47:00 GMT >> Also do you remember Darth Vader deflecting a blaster bolt with >> his hand in TESB? What kind of armor is he wearing? Also notice >> that it didn't stop a light saber! > >I think that was artistic license: Showing you that ole Darth could >deflect blaster bolts by the power of the force. Don't need no >light saber anymore. If I remember right he used his right hand to stop the blaster shot in TESB. That same hand was shown in ROTJ to be a mechanical replacement so we can assume that it could be armor. He may have even guessed that Han would fire and could have replaced his whole arm with a dummy one made of solid neutrons. Nothing is too good for a Dark Lord and it would put a healthy fear in the stormtroopers that saw this demo. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@topaz.rutgers.edu (richardt) Subject: Re:Stormtrooper's armor Date: 16 Sep 85 23:33:00 GMT >[albeit paraphrased quote] >why do we see stormtroopers running around in armor on Endor? >Why not battle fatigues? I think I can answer this one by drawing a historical analogy: consider the behavior of the Brtish during the American revolution. Here we had two basic types of behavior: the natives who were resorting to guerilla warfare because of lack of numbers, but who had better tactics; and an old and well established army fighting on unknown territory *and valiantly attempting to uphold the morale and efficiency of the troops*. The British didn't figure out what was happening for a long while, and didn't figure out how to handle it until they had already lost. Now, recast the roles, considering the Rebels and the Ewoks as the guerillas, and the stormtroopers as the British. The Rebels have high morale due to the nature of their cause and their basic methods (proof: the current Israeli wars); The Rebels on the ground are famioliar with the territory because the Ewoks are showing them around; The Ewoks have been maintaining surveillance and setting traps, but are fighting a slowly losing battle because of lack of numbers and technology. The Empire, on the other hand, has low morale in the first place (proof: current Soviet *TROOPS*), which is being augmented by dealing with unknown territory and unfamiliar tactics. They cling to their armor, which is effective for ceremonial, morale, and shipboard purposes, in an effort to maintain morale in a hostile situation. > given that they are in a dangerous position, why does the Empire > maintain the shield from Endor? Three factors seem to be involved. First, the Empire was slowly killing off the Ewoks before the Rebels came along. Second, the basic perversion of rational thinking which allows planners who believe that they are impervious to attack to make poor decisions: The designers of the Death Star were unwilling to believe that it had basic design flaws [Gee, that sounds familiar...]. So, too, the people who ordered the Shield control to the ground legitimately did not realize a threat existed. Third, the mechanics of the shield required a planet or large moon. [Lucas seems to like Earth-type planets around Gas Giants.] The shield could be mounted on an artificial asteroid, but would be too vulnerable and unstable. orstcs!richardt Richard Threadgill 104 S 20th <-- SnailMail address soon to be changed Philomath Or 97370 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Sep 85 0900-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #380 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 380 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Dickson & Hubbard & MacAvoy & McCaffrey & McKinley & Peake & Sagan & Tenn & STL Stories, Miscellaneous - Typos & Star Wars (3 msgs) & Nepotism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: uwmacc!rick@topaz.rutgers.edu (the absurdist) Subject: Jhereg mini-appreciation Date: 23 Sep 85 00:43:53 GMT leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: > I will get around to reviewing JHEREG soon. It has some good >prose too, but it requires too darn much memory to keep straight >what is happening in what ultimately turns out to be a simple >story. Really? For me, Jhereg's story (i.e., the plot end of it) was much better than that of most novels. A non-spoiler summary is : Everyone agrees that Person X is a wart and a louse, and that the world will be a better place without him: Person X has to die. Otherwise A Bad Thing will happen. But if Person X dies ... The Bad Thing will happen. Our hero is the assassin appointed to cut this Gordian knot. Brust plays fair with his puzzle: all the rules of what will cause the Bad Thing to happen are laid out, and the solution to the paradox is one that the reader could legitimately have thought of his/herself ... but almost certainly didn't. Rick Keir -- MicroComputer Information Center, MACC 1210 West Dayton St/U Wisconsin Madison/Mad WI 53706 {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!rick ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Sep 85 22:01:15-PDT From: Douglas M. Olson Subject: semi-hot flash Can't believe I haven't seen this here yet...if I missed it sorry.. BUT, for those who have been waiting as long as I have, Gordy Dickson's THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA has hit the mass market paperback stands. NO, I won't spoil it (how can I? I just found it hours ago and its nearly 700 pages of very small print) yet we have one small complaint already... Silly thing cost 4.95. Thanks, Ace. But how could I pass it up! Doug (dolson @ eclb.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Sep 85 01:50:22-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Asimov, Hubbard, and a query. Today I visited the New York Bookfair, an annual event which occupies a stretch of midtown 5th Avenue for one day. There were a couple notable SF items: Asimov was signing his new book, \Robots & Empire/. I didnt get a chance to talk to him, since the line was long, and my copy was at home anyway. Towards the south end of the fair (I started at the north), there was a large (~10' diameter) spherical red balloon. Initially I thought it was supposed to be a big apple, and thus just part of the dressing of the fair. When I got closer, I found it was in fact an ad for L. Ron Hubbard's new book, \The Invaders Plan/. It appears to be about 500 pages, and the hardback was in the $17-$18 range. A promotion bookmark I picked up read: In "Close Encounters" and "E.T." there were aliens that were visible... NOW... Unknown... Unrecognized... they walk among us... in L. RON HUBBARD'S THE INVADERS PLAN A LITERARY GUILD SELECTION "On our scale of 1-10 with 10 being excellent, The Invaders Plan comes out a 10. It's fabulous!" PAUL THOMAS HUGHES United press International "An incredibly good story, lushly written, vibrating with action and excitement. A gem." A. E. VAN VOGT "...a big humorous tale of interstellar intrigue in the classical mold. I fully enjoyed it." ROGER ZELAZNY THE INVADERS PLAN BY L. RON HUBBARD VOLUME 1 THE BIGGEST SCIENCE FICTION DEKALOGY* EVER WRITTEN MISSION EARTH RELEASE DATE OCTOBER 6TH Available wherever fine books are sold. * 10 volume work (c) Copyright 1985 Bridge Publications Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Hugo ballot over the next few years if he makes good on the implied next 9 books. There was a neighbouring bookstall selling nothing but copies of 'Dianetics' by the same author. On a related matter, I have several times heard it said that at some point soon before he gafiated and started 'Scientology', (late 40's, early 50's?) LRH stated, in front of witnesses, words to the effect that: "The fastest ways to get rich in this country are to start a religion or invent a new psychotherapy." and then went off to do just that. This is now part of the folklore of fandom, but I would like to know if he really did say something to this effect, or at least, what is the earliest allegation of his doing so. Come on you SF historians (jmb?)! This is a challenge! Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON Date: 22 Sep 85 18:01:39 GMT leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: >>Why do people like TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON? I just read it >>recently, and to my mind, it's a mediocre mystery story, with a >>not-terribly- interesting computer tie-in, and a small amount of >>poorly explained mysticism to justify the "fantasy" label. > >I am not terribly fond of the book, but it was enjoyable. Well, I AM terribly fond of the book, mainly because it is a book of mood and characterization and people. R.A. MacAvoy has evidently figured out (and this is true of Damiano as well) that you can tell a good story by simply writing about people well. After the cardboard that a lot of SF/Fantasy writers have a tendency to use to prop up their latest technical gimmickry, this is a breath of fresh air. Consider it a gentle reminder that you don't need a gosh-wow sword or magic ring or laser blaster to tell a story, as long as you're willing to give up the part of the audience that can't handle subtle stories. Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey as a person Date: 22 Sep 85 13:18:21 GMT I don't know McCaffrey personally, but I did have the chance to see her live at a reception in Toronto put on my Bantam celebrating the publication of DRAGON DRUMS. She certainly came across as a warm, loving human being interested in others. rjs ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Beauty by Robin McKinley Date: 29 Sep 85 07:19:14 GMT > From: Bart > Those of you who liked _The_Blue_Sword_ by Robin McKinley will be > happy to hear that they have just released _Beauty_ in paperback. I presume you meant "re-released," since it was first released in paperback in 1979 by Pocket Books. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 02:03:27 pdt From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Gormenghast Although I wimped out in the middle of the second volume, Peake's style was really inspiring. The richness of the stuff made me pause. I know i will come back and finish it off sometime soon. Rolling Stone's special on Sting mentioned that he has the movie rights to Gormenghast. Gormenghast would make an excellent movie! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 85 23:49:24 edt From: mike%bambi@mouton Subject: Sagan's CONTACT - short review I've been waiting for this for some time, being a big fan of COSMOS. The good news is that Sagan can write a fairly good novel. The characterization is deft, if a bit heavy-handed, and the plot moves nicely along. The bad news is that it isn't as mind-blowingly interesting as the subject entails. When I first heard that Sagan was working on a movie about first contact, I thought it might be everything CLOSE ENCOUNTERS wasn't. If a movie was made from this novel, it might indeed be that. But the novel itself just moves too slowly. The tone is much like that in James Gunn's THE LISTENERS - though the earlier book did what I consider to be a better job (though less detailed scientifically, it addressed the wonder and probable results of first contact better.) There are many superficial resemblences between CONTACT and THE LISTENERS - such as a sympathetic evangelist and a rise of millenialism. There's a lot more politics in CONTACT. (Astute observers will see a bit of A FOR ANDROMEDA by Fred Hoyle here too.) All in all, a good read (I'm saving the last 50 pages for tomorrow) but you may want to wait for the paperback, since the hardback is an unusually high $18.95. (One also wonders what happened to Proxmire in the universe of CONTACT.) Michael Caplinger mike@bellcore.arpa ihnp4!bambi!mike ------------------------------ From: cybvax0!mrh@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz) Subject: Re: Stories where H. sap. gets its come-uppance Date: 23 Sep 85 15:42:06 GMT keen@inuxd.UUCP (D Keen) writes: > There is a "classic" short story whose title and author will, I'm > sure, be supplied by some other netter in which a group of > non-humans and humans of various evolutionary types are searching > for the origin of humanity as a class. The gist of the conclusion > is that humanity was a pest aboard a large and temporally > different races spaceships, ala, the rat, aboard sailing ships. In William Tenn's "Of Men And Monsters", the protagonists come to the conclusion that the best niche for humans is as pests on the alien conquorers' spaceships. I highly recommend all of Tenn's SF. Mike Huybensz decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh ------------------------------ Date: 23 Sep 85 08:38:41 PDT (Monday) Subject: Re: was Einstein right? From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA In reply to Mike Sellers' query about stories where humanity never makes it out of the Solar System, I seem to recall that John W. Campbell, Jr.'s short story _Twilight_ deals with humanity in the far future having evolved into mental giants who have no hope because no FTL methodology was ever discovered. Also, the method used in Forward's _The_Flight_Of_The_Dragonfly_ to reach Barnard's Star is definitely slower-than-light, more-or-less current technology. (This latter book gets my vote for best SF novel of the last decade, by the way--it's been a long time since I've so voraciously read a novel all the way through with such an inane grin on my face...) Dave Opstad (Opstad.PA@Xerox.ARPA) ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo... Date: 29 Sep 85 07:36:07 GMT Read Anne McCaffrey's introduction to GET OFF THE UNICORN and find out how the title got changed from "Get [meaning offspring] of the Unicorn"! Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: leadsv!sas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart) Subject: Re: Stormtroopers (Armor & Weapons) Date: 20 Sep 85 22:10:32 GMT tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes: > The idea of all the stormtroppers being clones of Obi Wan presents > two difficulties: > > 1) we clearly see in the deathstar docking bay that the troopers, > when lined up, are not all the same height. I suppose the clones > could have been raised on worlds with different gravities, but ... > > 2) Han and Luke mug two stormtroopers and steal their uniforms. > Surely they would have noticed if a) the two storm troopers were > identical and b) that both storm troopers looked like Obi Wan. I didn't think the author said that the stormtroopers were all clones of the same person, or that they were even the same clone as Obi Wan. He implied that the stormtroopers were clones, but they could be many gene bases to start with. But this talk reminds me of an article I read from, I think, Starlog back after EMPIRE. The author was specualating on the many possible plotlines left open at the end of the 2nd movie and what we might see in the 3rd. He talked a bit about the Clone War mentioned in A NEW HOPE, speculating things like that all Jedi's were made of a special genetic makeup, and that the old Jedi force was made of many clones, who fought the bad clones, those who turned to the dark side for the Empire. One basis for this idea was that in EMPIRE the emperor was also played by Alec Guiness. Well, Lucas opened a can of worms with the one little mention of the Clone Wars, and I sure hope he finally tells us what happened. Scott A. Stewart LMSC - Sunnyvale ------------------------------ Date: Mon 23 Sep 85 13:46:20-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: Light-sabres and blasters Maybe light-sabres are more expensive than blasters? Or maybe it costs more (money, time, talent) to train people in light-sabre than in blaster? Or perhaps light-sabres are more sporting (you can run from them, sometimes) and not appropriate for the Empire to use. Or maybe you can learn to use the Force from light-sabre training, and the Empire doesn't want ten billion grunts running around with moderate skill in the Force. Who knows? Maybe one of them will be stronger than Darth Vader. Bard, whom the Force is not with. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 85 22:43:51 edt From: mar@MIT-BORAX.MIT.EDU (Mark A. Rosenstein) Subject: light sabers All of this talk about blasters and light sabers reminds me of a design we came up with a while back for making a real lightsaber. There a couple of problems with this design, but for the most part, it should work . . . Start with your ordinary household portable high-energy laser. Now you need about three feet of Sinclair molecule chain, and a pulley that you can wrap it around without slicing the pulley in half. The other end of the chain is attached to a perfect mirror about an inch in diameter. The pulley is spring loaded so that with power off, the mirror covers the end of the laser. Turn on the laser, and the photonic energy will push against the mirror, unrolling the chain to its length of three feet (plus an integral number of wavelengths of the laser). The laser does not need to be quite as strong as you would first think, since it's being reflected back into its own chamber will reinforce the beam. The slightest bit of parabolic curve on the edges of the mirror will make sure that the mirror tracks the beam as you swing it around or push it against things. I was going to build one, but my Edmund Scientific Catalog does not list Sinclair molecule chains. Mr. Niven, where can I get one? -Mark ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!norman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: Brian Herbert's SIDNEY'S COMET Date: 23 Sep 85 19:39:23 GMT Aren't Joe Haldeman and Jack C. Haldeman III father and son? I believe they've even written a book together. Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work) (607)-272-7750 (home) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 26 Sep 85 0929-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #381 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 26 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 381 Today's Topics: Books - Hubbard & Peake & Zelazny & STL Stories, Films - Back to the Future, Magazines - Recommendations?, Miscellaneous - Nepotism (2 msgs) & Price Increases & Typos & Matter Transmission (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Sep 85 08:54:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: LRH At the counter of my local WaldenBooks I picked up a bookmark with the following information on it: L. Ron Hubbard is writing a dekology (work of 10 volumes (yes, that is footnoted on the bookmark itself)) called _The_Invaders_Plan_. The first work, _Mission_Earth_, has a release date of October 6. (I may have the dekology name and the book name reversed..who can tell??) There are recommendations from Zelazny & A.E. Van Vogt, as well as someone from UPI. Regardless of my personal opinions on Scientology, I thought his recent _Battlefield_Earth_ was a good book, and I am looking forward to this release. (Although a dekology seems a bit much.....) I wonder why he destroyed all of his previous SF when he started Scientology (information gained from previous SF-LOVERS msg.)? -Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 1985 09:18:04-EDT From: clapper@NADC Subject: Re: Gormenghast Trilogy >From: Dave Godwin > Have any of you folks read the Gormenghast trilogy, or parts there >of ? I'll reserve further discussion until I hear more. I read the Titus Groan saga about three years ago. I never could decide whether the author, Mervyn Peake, intended the trilogy to be satire, art, or just depressing. I thought Peake did a marvelous job of portraying a "royal" establishment rotting from within. The environment he described was in such a state of decay that I could almost smell the odor. To me, the books were a study in the futility of the characters' lives. The characters themselves were rather flat, as though Peake intended each one to personify a certain idea, almost to the exclusion of any other character trait. For example, Steerpike was the ultimate conniver and misogynist. Titus' sister, Fuschia (what a name!), was the caricature of a girl lost in her daydreams and romances. On the whole, the atmosphere of Gormenghast, particularly the castle, made more of an impact on me than the plot. I found the tone of the three books to be relentlessly despairing. I also never quite got over the feeling that Mervyn Peake was somehow pulling my leg. Brian M. Clapper ------------------------------ From: ucdavis!ccrrick@topaz.rutgers.edu (Rick Heli) Subject: Trumps of Doom speculation (the spoiler continued) Date: 24 Sep 85 07:04:31 GMT > I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is in > fact the gemstone of a ring. Also Corwin is not dead, but is > masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much. Sounds right to me; there is certainly a precedent in Ganelon/Oberon... rick heli (... ucbvax!ucdavis!groucho!ccrrick) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 85 09:05:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- STL fiction --- Among the most memorable I can remember is not entirely a STL travel piece, but man's first FTL drive. It is called "Time Fuze", by Randall Garret. Originally published under another name. No spoilers on this story here. If people want to read it I can't find it...I think it is good enough that I will type it in for posting (or to send, if only a few are interested.) There are STL drive stories around, although I can't think of any offhand. OOPS! _A_Gift_From_Earth_, Niven. Known Space did not have the hyperdrive then. This story, however takes place only on the colony itself, not any ship. _Mayflies_, I forget the Author. STL colony ship, the controlling computer was the brain of someone who had an accident. Covers many generations. Good story. There are many other STL technology stories/novels out there. Your search must have been very cursory to not have turned up any. (Sorry if that sounds like a personal comment, it wasn't meant to be one....) Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vsmb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 08:46 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: The town in Back to the Future I just watched Gremlins which was free with Teen Wolf, and guess what I recognized? The town was the same as Back to the Future, but with some signs changed. They never gave a really good view of the clock tower, but the movie theatre he crashed into on his way back was the same one where Snow White was enjoyed by the little monsters until they "blowed up, sir". Just another proof it was a back lot. Jon Pugh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 10:09:47 edt From: melissa@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Subject: sf&f magazines question I have only been with this group for a couple of months, so pardon me if this has been asked before (and send me the answer, please!): I am interested in subscribing to an sf&f magazine. I know nothing about any of them, and could use some recommendations. In particular, how do they differ in content, style, frequency, quality and price? Melissa Silvestre melissa@mit-athena ------------------------------ Date: Tue 24 Sep 85 11:30:38-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Literary children On the subject of parents who write having children who write, and perhaps rather off the subject of SF, don't forget that Jack Kerouac had a daughter Jan, who wrote an autobiography called 'Baby Driver'. It is worth reading as a book, but should anyone out there actually LIKE Kerouac, they will enjoy it even more because of the insight it gives into him and his life. Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: render@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Children of SF authors Date: 24 Sep 85 16:08:00 GMT Justin Leiber (son of Fritz) had a decent sf book out a few years ago. I believe that the title was BEYOND REJECTION, and dealt with the transplant of a dying person's mind into another body. Hal Render University of Illinois {pur-ee, ihnp4} ! uiucdcs ! render render@uiuc.csnet render@uiuc.arpa ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!akhtar@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price Date: 24 Sep 85 14:44:00 GMT A few comments: i) I'm also disgusted with the price raise. Patronize your local library and used bookstore. Libraries round here can get you almost any book you want - within reason. ii) Crown books - well maybe they do save you money for a few things, but try going in there and ordering something slightly obscure. I would expect that you'll not get very far. Crown 'bookstores' serve a useful function, but please don't mistake them for real bookstores. ------------------------------ From: orca!ariels@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo... Date: 23 Sep 85 05:52:54 GMT > The first ACE edition of Spider Robinson's TIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY > CASH proudly exclaims: > > TIIME TRAVELERS STRICTLY CASH > rjs And Spider autographs these as "Spiider Robiinson" -rel ------------------------------ Subject: matter transmission and personal identity Date: 24 Sep 85 11:11:33 EDT (Tue) From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA S.F. comes closest to philosophy when dealing with artificial minds and matter transmission. Matter transmission is one of the gedanken experiments philosophers engage in when dealing with the problem of personal identity (what is it? how does something--particularly a living, conscious being, retain it's identity over time?). Here is a famous puzzle, known as the ship of Theseus: The ship of Theseus is a wooden ship. One day, a wooden plank is replaced. The plank is removed and left on the dock. As the years go by, this happens to more and more of the planks, with each plank removed added to the pile, until one day, none of the original wood is left -- it's all in the pile on the dock. Where is the ship of Theseus? What makes that boat there the ship of Theseus, as opposed to the pile of wood on the dock? Similarly, what makes you the same person as you were when you were 12 years old? Probably almost all of the atoms in your body have been replaced in that time. Well, you REMEMBER being that 12 year old... So is it your memory of being that 12 year old that makes you the same person? Enter duplication through matter transmission. Now you have two copies (you can even arrange it so that both copies were created in the same instant, and the original ``destroyed''/``transmitted''. Both copies remember being that 12 year old. >let me say it one more way. imagine that we can make the copy >without damaging the original at all. according to the arguments >i'm hearing, if you shoot the original through the head, it will >not experience death now, since there is a copy of it. this is >plainly ridiculous. > Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU Well, yes, this argument is plainly ridiculous, but it isn't the argument that people have been putting forth. The copy which is shot experiences death, certainly -- they started being different people when they stepped out of the matter transmitter/duplicator. But the original ``person'' is still alive -- that is, there is still a living, conscious being who remembers being that 12 year old... The same arguement applies to recreating a person by recording their mind and playing it back -- either into a tabula rasa clone, or into an android or a computer. If the mind is software, it shouldn't matter too much what hardware it's implemented in. This is a conundrum. I suspect it might be a conundrum for a number of reasons. We don't know what identity is -- we have some intuitive ideas, but nothing rigorous that holds at the edges of our experience. Don't laugh at the philosophers because they are puzzled by these problems. Think how far you would get in a world where quantum mechanical phenomena were visible and tangible if all you had were your Newtonian intuitions to rely on. Probably in arguing about this we're making a mistake akin to dividing by zero -- that postulating matter transmission or person duplication OR personal identity as we intuit it is a fallacy. It's the role of philosophy to derive a non-fallacious concept of personal identity, just as it is the role of physics to derive a non-fallacious concept of the electron. I think it was Locke who first suggested that you might be replaced each night by an exact copy (or for that matter, manufactured from whole cloth with memories of a past which did not exist). Daniel Dennet has a highly entertaining essay which captures the issues of this problem called ``Where am I?'' in his book ``Brainstorms'' (I think it may also appear in ``The Mind's I'' by Dennet & Douglas Hofstadter). Rudy Rucker also has a novel (called ``Software'', which is excerpted in ``The Mind's I'') in which a group of sentient robots kill their creator in order to analyze his brain (his software) to reproduce his program in hardware not susceptible to the cancer and heart disease that's killing him. They build a robot that looks just like him, and which runs the same program his brain was running. He's a bit uncomfortable about the procedure, I might add, but the robot who wakes up is totally convinced he is the original. Rucker's book introduces another interesting idea: his robots have developed an aesthetic of minds -- they look on the ``patterns'' of people's minds as an art form, or at least as things of beauty. It's an interesting book, I enjoyed it a great deal, although there is a scene early on that's not for the squeamish... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 11:42 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Who are you? It seems to me that some points of which we all should be aware have been missed. Assume the following: We have a device capable of recording an object's entire atomic state and recreate it. It doesn't matter whether the recording process is destructive or not. If it is we can build a new one immediately; if not we have only a duplicator. The big question is: Can LIFE be duplicated? If it cannot, we only have a replacement for cargo transportation, assuming a certain cost level. Let's assume it works on life though. Creatures notice no ill effects and people feel continuous through the process. What we have here is a way of spawning processes. We can essentially create sentient life. The recorded atomic state is our pattern, and all clones of this template will feel like they are the original, except that they should know they are copies from a discontinuity in the surroundings. There is a large possiblity of craziness from the process, but we'll just erase the tapes until we find someone who can cope. After all, they will all walk out of the machine exactly the same and immediately begin diverging from the original. Each of these people will be unique, but with an identical starting point and memories. They operate with the same code, but different parameters, if you will. Their ONLY difference is environmental. They are not you, because they have not gone through the same experiences you have *after* you were recorded. The only way *you* could be resurrected is if you died during the recording process. Otherwise they are all copies branching off from a common point. I wonder about their first words. Would they all say the same thing after walking out of the machine? Would it be the same thing the original said? How quickly would they pick up on the fact they were not the original? You could back yourself up every night, that way if you were killed you would only miss the day on which you died. Of course, *you* died, but you_1 could still live on. I suspect they would demand that the president do this, plus other irreplacables. It would not stop the pres from being assasinated but it would prevent him from being dead too long. John F Kennedy could still be alive. What would Jackie think of the new John? After all she saw him die, but then the new one is essentially the man she woke up with the day he died. What if there are a bunch of you walking around? How do you identify the original? Or do you identify the spawns? Does the original own them, or are they free? Free I suppose, although if they were owned the owning process could terminate them. And what if they spawned themselves. Imagine an army that all thought the same way. Of course, this negates the prime reason that people live, so that they can die, hopefully having passed on their knowledge and genetic info to their children and allowing them to continue. It would be very selfish of a person to keep replicating himself in an already over populated world. And who would decide who got to live again? Popular vote? Elvis Lives? The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that cheating death may be fun, but it's not a really sensible long term solution to life. After all, you still have to die, each and every replication. Why put yourself through that pain again {, and again}? Jon Pugh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 85 1004-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #382 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 382 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Cook & Finch & McQuay & Some Comments (2 msgs) & Title Request, Television - The New Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Conventions & Rules for reading SF-Lovers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed 25 Sep 85 00:54:08-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Robots and Empire (non spoiler review) ROBOTS AND EMPIRE by Isaac Asimov Doubleday, ISBN 0-385-19092-1 As has been apparent since FOUNDATIONS EDGE, Isaac has been trying to forge a link between the worlds of his robot stories and his classic FOUNDATION trilogy. In RaE, he continues the process started in THE ROBOTS OF DAWN, setting up a situation in which the Spacer Worlds of the Elijah Baley/robot stories (50 planets, lightly populated by extremely long-lived aesthetes served by robot retinues, with Earth in the background) can evolve into the Galactic Empire (entire galaxy colonized by humans of ordinary lifespan, no robots whatsoever, and Earth lost). He manages this rather clumsily, needing to resort to deus ex machina devices. Gladia, who we met in tRoD and THE NAKED SUN, has lived 160 quiet years on Aurora since her last involvement with Elijah Baley, the Earth police detective who cleared her of sabotage and murder during her youth, incidently clearing the way for the short-lived people of Earth to set up their own interstellar colonies. They have done so with vigor, and the new Settler worlds now exist in an uneasy balance with the older, non-expanding Spacer worlds. Fastolfe, Gladia's mentor, chairman of Aurora, and architect of the plan under which Earth has been allowed to send out new settlements has died. The new regime is under the control of his arch-rival Amadiro, who is extremely hostile to Earth and its new colonies. Gladia is asked by the new government to go with a Settler to her former home planet of Solaria, which has recently dropped completely out of the Spacer communication network and appears to be depopulated. I will not divulge further plot elements, save to say that it involves Aurora, Solaria, a Settler planet called Baleyworld, and the Earth. Giskard and Daneel, the robots from the TRoD, play central roles. The plot moves, but I wonder if I would have bothered if this novel were not part of Isaac's magnum opus; it frequently slams to a halt while the two robots discuss in redundant detail the 3 Laws of Robotics and how their actions are restricted by them. These discussions, and the way the robots perception of their own roles change as a result, are as much the raison d'etre of this book as is spanning the gap between the two series. I rather wonder why Asimov is trying to do this: link the very different worlds of the robots and the Foundation into one. What does he have to gain by it? Is it an intellectual challenge, or is he just out of ideas? The last really original book I remember from him was THE GODS THEMSELVES, which was at least 10 years ago. There is a massive hook left for a sequel, but at least it is not a cliffhanger. I can certainly stand to wait a year or two till it comes out. As for the present volume, it is probably about a +1 on the -4..+4 scale. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: A MATTER OF TIME by Glen Cook Date: 2 Oct 85 05:14:23 GMT A MATTER OF TIME by Glen Cook Ace, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper The still-warm body of a man who died fifty years ago is the first clue in this mystery of agents from the future trying to preserve the past to insure the continued existence of their future. While Detective Cash tries to solve that mystery, his son is being brain-washed by the Chinese Communists to carry out a very important mission. If it sounds like THE TERMINATOR meets THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE to you, well, you're not far off. Nothing great or earth-shaking here, but a good read, especially for those who like mysteries or spy adventures. (I bought it as an alternate history, which it isn't really, but it has the thread of time paradox running through it if that's your thing.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: INFINITY'S WEB by Sheila Finch Date: 2 Oct 85 05:13:30 GMT INFINITY'S WEB by Sheila Finch Bantam Spectra, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper The back blurb says "Each life is the result of an infinity of choices--choices that separate who we are from who we might have been.... This is the tale of the many possible lives of Anastasia Valerie Stein which come to touch one another through a twist in the fabric of spacetime..." To this Finch has added the mysteries of the Tarot and her interpretation of quantum physics (apparently Gregory Benford checked the physics sections, so I suppose they have some validity). The cover is pretty bad too. Joanna Russ did it better. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: LIFEKEEPER by Mike McQuay Date: 2 Oct 85 05:13:53 GMT LIFEKEEPER by Mike McQuay Avon, 1980 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Mike McQuay got such good reviews on the Net, I thought I'd give him a try. In LIFEKEEPER, Doral Dulan (an "Exceptional") goes to Milcom Forty-Three and meets Beatrice Delacorte (an "Outsider"). They fall in love, in defiance of the Milcom's orders, and... Well, if you've read BRAVE NEW WORLD, you can pretty much substitute "Alpha" for "Exceptional," "Primitive" for "Outsider," etc., and know what's going on. The big secret at the end is no secret, and in general, don't waste your time on this one. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 85 18:28:05 pdt From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Subject: caught up.. Re: "Is Leiber a superficial writer?" For those of you who enjoyed Leiber's Fahfrd & the Grey Mouser, and would like to try some of his deeper work, or for those of you who were able to finish Phillip K Dick's Transmigration of Timothy Archer, or for anyone who lives near San Francisco and reads, I recommend "Our Lady of Darkness" by Fritz Leiber. Re: Sabberhagen's Book of Swords I got the three-in-one book club edition, but after 50 pages I decided to shear the binding and use it at the commode. Re: Downbelow Station I could not finish this one either - I thought the characters and scenes were very flat. The political intrigue was slightly interesting, but not enough to carry the weight of the rest. Re: "Chuck gives Trumps of Doom two *'s" I was also disappointed by Trumps of Doom, but liked it a bit more than you did apparently. For a long time I have wondered how an Amberite would go about ordering a pizza & etc. The walk with Julia, and hellrides in general were also well done. I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is in fact the gemstone of a ring. Also Corwin is not dead, but is masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much. -steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 85 22:05:33 pdt From: Dennis Cottel Subject: comments on book reviews: Hogan, Alexander, Varley There's not much information content in a "me, too" comment on a book review, but the mention of Hogan's THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER prompts me to abandon restraint. I liked the book overall more than Mark Leeper did, but I want to reiterate that the Prologue of this book is worth the cover price all by itself. Fascinating. My copy has already been read by three friends. While I'm here, I'll add "MeToo"s to two of Paul Chisholm's reviews. The first is for Alexander's excellent THE BOOK OF THREE volumes. When I mentioned at home that I planned to read them before seeing THE BLACK CAULDRON movie this summer, my teenage daughter pulled them from her bookshelves. I expected a light "juvenile" story, but they are much more. I, too, found the love story in "Press Enter_" to be moving. When the Nebula nominations were announced, I reread it. On both readings, I was *very* disappointed to have a great piece of science fiction drift off into fantasy at the end. It was *so* good for a while! Finally, thanks to Mark, Paul, and others of you whose thoughtful reviews make this forum a fertile source of ideas and new directions for my reading pleasure. What have *you* read lately? Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA 92152 (619) 225-2406 dennis@nosc.ARPA sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 23:13:08 PDT Subject: Re: Boring races judith@proper.UUCP (judith) writes: >Anybody seen an interesting story about a boring race (i.e. us) ? I'll have to appeal to the net for the title and author of this one. I read a book some years ago about invaders who conquer Earth and then discover, to their considerable dismay, that they have conquered a race that is more intelligent. One specific instance in the book: Some human prisoners are being taken to a POW camp by alien guards holding an alien rifle in one hand and a knife in the other. A prisoner is explaining how to make a bayonet as they walk. One of the major aliens is (as best I recall) General Horsip. The book is very funny, well done, and ends in a rather unexpected manner. /Bruce N. Wheelock/ uucp: {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!bnw ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 1985 10:08 PST From: Greg Goodknight Subject: Twilight Zone Audio Tuesday's Los Angeles Times has an article about a three-dimensional sound process called "spatial reverberation processing" that will be used to liven the audio for the new Twilight Zone series, premiering on Friday. Time to buy airline tickets for Philadelphia- the experimental stereo signal will make its debut there this Friday. Philip DeGuere,the executive producer (pictured next to a monitor displaying the Twilight Zone title, and looking quite natty in a new Grateful Dead T-shirt) was made aware of the process by the sound designer of the Twilight Zone, Mickey Hart. Hart got the job because he was the only one from the Grateful Dead to show up for the first meeting with DeGuere. Hart's first words to DeGuere were "I live in the Twilight Zone". The Dead, along with jazzer Merle Saunders, are the composers of the music for the show. The three dimensional sound is being implemented by Betsy Cohen, a Stanford University acoustician. The processing is being done at the Northwestern University's Computer Music Studio, where it was developed. Harlan Ellison, creative consultant for the series, is unimpressed. "People in this industry are technologically mad. I work on the text of the story. That's where (the show) begins and ends." Harlan was not wearing a Grateful Dead T-shirt. Greg Goodknight ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Help: World Fantasy Convention Info Date: 25 Sep 85 01:31:00 GMT The World Science Fiction Convention (aka WorldCon) was indeed held in Australia (specifically, Melbourne) about a month ago. Since it was an out-of-North-America con, a North American Science Fiction Convention (NASFiC) was held over Labor Day weekend in Austin, TX. WesterCon is completely separate from the two, and I assume it's an annual event on the west coast. The World Fantasy Convention is also unrelated to the above-named conventions. It's generally held the weekend before Halloween, and if the one I went to in Chicago is any judge, places a stronger emphasis on the written word than most science fiction conventions. (i.e, very much a publisher's and writer's convention, with relatively few media fans around). Next year's WorldCon will be held in Atlanta, GA. The one after that will be in Brighton, England, with the NASFiC to be held in Phoenix, AZ. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: Tue 24 Sep 85 22:27:16-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Rules for reading SF-Lovers. 7 Rules of thumb for reading SF-Lovers: I have been watching SF-Lovers for about 4 years now, and have also delved extensively into the archives. Certain patterns have emerged, and I thought the list might find them of interest. Rule 1: If quotations are nested to a depth greater than two, the topic has been mined out. Comments on comments on comments are of very little interest to most people (including me). Some of the discussion of Quality in SF/Dhalgren is now preceded by '>>>>' and thus the submission consists of a counter-blast to a flame against a rebuttal to an alternate opinion to a comment on Dhalgren. Does anyone, save the individuals involved, really care? The horse they are beating is not merely dead, it's fossilized. (I suppose this submission goes to another level, and is a complaint about counter-blasts to flames against rebuttals to counter-opinions to comments on Dhalgren). Rule 2: If there is a movie/book you are interested in, some jerk will submit a spoiler without a warning. (Also known as the 'But I thought EVERYBODY had seen The Prisoner.' rule). Rule 3: If you have limited storage for mail, it will be on a weekend when you are away that Saul will clear the backlog, and mail out 10 issues. This is not really a complaint, but a comment on our embarassment of riches; SFL this year is far more voluminous than last or any other year. Keep 'em coming Saul! Rule 4: Info in SFL, provided it does not fall to Rule 2, will be far more timely, and often more informative, than info from almost any other source. (Not all my rules are sarcastic). Rule 5: If a question/topic is not inextricably bound to a recently released work, SFL has probably tackled it before:- in depth. For example, SF Music was covered extensively a couple years ago, and Showscan was first mentioned around '81. The source of Sturgeon's Law appears definitively in volume 1. Inconsistancies in Niven's Known Space series were disscussed soon after Ringworld Engineers came out. Going back into the archives is often a good idea. This probably results from the average reader watching SFL only for a year or two before going on to other things. I suspect that the modal reader is a 3rd or 4th year undergrad who loses contact when he/she graduates. Rule 6: There is no Rule 6. Rule 7: Often, comments contain deeply obscure in-jokes (Also known as 'The Rule 6 Rule'). Anyone else, particularly long-time SFL'ers, have some favorite rules? 'about 30% of submissions will have a "cute" signoff' Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 85 1027-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #383 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 383 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Brust & McCaffrey & Peake & Pohl & Saberhagen & L. Neil Smith & Varley, Films - Star Trek IV, Miscellaneous - Star Wars & Nepotism & Matter Transmission (2 msgs) & Price Increases ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 85 13:15 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Asimov I have to agree with Jim Brunet's opinion of Asimov's recent books. Too many fans seem to react to names rather than content. Asimov is a great SF writer, therefore he only writes great SF. *bull* Actually, I think Asimov died years ago, but Doubleday is making so much money off of his famed prolificity, that they hired a staff of writers to continue to put out Asimov books. Certainly, this bit about tying all the books together sounds like fan fiction. Lisa ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: JHEREG by Stephen Brust Date: 2 Oct 85 05:11:18 GMT JHEREG by Stephen Brust Ace, 1983 A book review by Mark R. Leeper (**Spoiler warning**) One of the great things about fantasy is its ability to drop you into the middle of a fully realized world completely of the author's construction. If you are dropped into the middle of an alien world, you will quickly discover that the best thing to have along is a great memory for new names and foreign terms. This is one of the reasons I do very poorly when dropped into the middle of alien worlds: I can keep straight maybe six characters in a novel without taking notes. That's why of science fiction, horror, and fantasy, fantasy is what I read the least. The last fantasy I really enjoyed was DAMIANO by R. A. MacAvoy. It has just a few characters and the supernatural beaties it deals with are unimaginative things like angels and devils. If you have a reasonably good memory, first, I envy you, and second, expect a different reaction to JHEREG than I had. The basic story is not a bad one, though I am a little surprised that it was able to make a whole novel. In a world where magic works, a man who is basically a cheap detective of the Sam Spade sort is given a single task not too different from one he might be given in our world. (I'm trying not too reveal too much.) The rest of the novel is how he discovers why he is performing the task of revenge, why the object of his revenge is doing what he is doing, what the complications are, and finally, how he accomplishes his mission. In and of itself the problem is not all that complex and somehow the solution seems too simple. So the plot is not the strong suit of JHEREG. Brust, however, has an ear for witty repartee and for characterization. Some of his dialogue is a positive joy to read. When the pacing is slow, the dialogue is what keeps the reader going. Brust has created a world where different rules work. Characters who are killed may or may not come back, characters teleport at will--there are a number of differences. But the world is self-consistent and with some substitutions not really very different from ours. Aside from the multiplicity of unfamiliar names--probably not a drawback for most other readers--the story is fairly well-written. I did, however, all too often come up confused as to who was who in the book and because of that, did not enjoy the book as much as I might have. Rate the book a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wed 25 Sep 85 10:44:13-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey as a person Having met her at multiple conventions, I think I can say unequivocally that yes, she is a warm, loving human being, interested in and interesting to others. She is also a delightfully bawdy woman, and a hell of a raconteur! To catch her act, look into attending Norwescon 9 in Seattle, 20-23 March 1986; right now, that's the only place I know of her appearing in the US in the next year (their other guests are Kelly and Polly Freas, Spider & Jeannie Robinson, & Greg Bennett; see publicly-accesible SRI-NIC file CONS.TXT for more information). She is subsidized by the Irish government (paid to stay home and write, essentially), and only gets to take 2 trips a year out of the British isles (as I understand her situation, anyway). -Rich ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: Art ?? Date: 24 Sep 85 18:04:06 GMT >From: Dave Godwin > Have any of you folks read the Gormenghast trilogy, or parts >there of ? I'll reserve further discussion until I hear more. Now you're talking!! Yes indeed! They are probably the best novels written by an artist; or the best illustrations by a writer that you will find anywhere. The two are a whole and inseparable. A plot summary would be quite long but yet convey nothing of the unique flavour of these books. Be warned that Peake's style is dense and architectural and can be hard to get into. Don't forget the short story 'Boy in Darkness' which deals with an episode in Titus' youth. The BBC recently did 'Titus Groan' and 'Gormenghast' as two 1.5 hour radio plays. Quite successful, but hopelessly compressed. Sting played Steerpike! (not at all badly) There was an *opera* planned!!! Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: idec!grafton@topaz.rutgers.edu (S. Grafton) Subject: Re: Matter Transmission/identity on file Date: 24 Sep 85 10:21:27 GMT leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: >They can't all be the original. Take my word for it, if you are >destroyed and replaced by an exact copy with your mind, you are >dead. The exact copy is only that. I know. It happens to me >every night. > Mark Leeper This reminds me of another one of those short stories that I can remember reading, 'The Tunnel under the World' by Fred Pohl (if my colleague's memory serves him right). The above comment jogged the old memory. It was about a man who found himself in a very strange situation. Every day people about him were doing exactly the same things that they were doing the day before. It was always the same day, there were always the same progs on the tele (so whats new) and so on. Anyway he and a chum hide away somewhere but are eventually found. He finds out, much to his dismay, that he is in fact a Robot. His whole town was destroyed when a factory exploded and everyone had been killed. An advertising agency had bought the town , 'reincarnated' the people as robots, and tested out different advertising techniques on them. They were reprogrammed every night. Who knows, this may already have happened ...... grafton@idec.UUCP mcvax!ukc!stc!idec!grafton ------------------------------ From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Racer X) Subject: Re: caught up.. Date: 26 Sep 85 13:06:45 GMT >Re: Saberhagen's Book of Swords >I got the three-in-one book club edition, but after 50 pages I >decided to shear the binding and use it at the commode. >-steve It's too bad you didn't read a little farther. The 51st page is where it gets really good :-). Seriously, I found the first book (of three) a little slow, though interesting. The second book really had me hooked, and the third BLEW ME AWAY. I did wish, however, that the ending had been less rushed. I got the feeling Saberhagen could have written another 50-100 pages, perhaps delving into more detail about the fate of the main characters. You don't say why you "put it down". Was it the plot you didn't like, or did you find the writing sub-par, or...? Scott J. Berry ihnp4!hou2g!scott ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE GALLATIN DIVERGENCE by L. Neil Smith Date: 2 Oct 85 05:12:45 GMT THE GALLATIN DIVERGENCE by L. Neil Smith Del Rey, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This is apparently part of a series of books by Smith set in the same universe, or rather, set of alternate universes. (other books in the series include TOM PAINE MARU, THE NAGASAKI VECTOR, and THE PROBABILITY BROACH). This one is set at the time of the Whiskey Rebellion in a universe in which was formed the North American Confederacy instead of the United States. I really wish I liked Smith's writing style more--he has such interesting ideas, but I find his books agony to read. The first-person, "slangy" style in which he writes does not flow well (at least to me) and attempting to follow the various speaking styles of the characters (one of whom is a dolphin--what is it with dolphins these days? Every third author seems to feel he should include intelligent dolphins in his novels) is not an easy task. If you can take the style, I would recommend it, but it's not for everyone. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: calmasd!gail@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan) Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; long review, many Subject: spoilers Date: 23 Sep 85 16:27:58 GMT An interesting review. It failed to mention what I found most notable (and annoying) about the story -- the extreme overuse of hacker's dictionary jargon. It reads like someone handed Varley a copy of the dictionary, and he decided to write a story using every single word... Gail Bayley Hanrahan Calma Company, San Diego {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 85 13:02 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: ST IV I recently received the following from a reliable source, Craig Chrissinger of the Alpha Centauri Communicator. Did anyone else hear about this press relese? About a week and a half ago, an OFFICIAL press release came out from Paramount revealing the basic plot for the fourth Trek film. Any other stories you hear are false. In the movie, Kirk and company receive a strange message from aliens. They find they cannot answer it without going back in time to 1985 for hands-on research. Both the Pacific and Atlantic coasts of the United States are involved in the story. The movie is said to contain "more humor than before." One of the highlights planned is a visit to San Francisco by Spock. But no one will notice his alien appearance! The major cast is back and Nimoy is again directing. However, there is no news on whether Saavik returns. I do know that Kirstie Alley is not in the cast. Lisa Wahl Star Trek Welcommittee ------------------------------ Date: 24 Sep 1985 18:41 PST From: Greg Goodknight Subject: Original Body One RJS pokes a couple of holes in the "Original Body One=Obi-Wan" posting: 1) Stormtrooper's heights vary; 2) Han and Luke mug a couple of stormtroopers and steal the uniforms. They would have noticed if the stormtroopers looked like Obi-Wan. If there is an "Original Body One" there is probably an Original Body Two, Three, Four... . It wouldn't take too many OB's to make it very likely not to find the clone of a friend in a sample of two. Since they may know the stormtroopers are clones they may not have been surprised even if they had. Remember, we didn't see the actual mugging. I have wondered how the "clone wars" reference was going to be worked into the Star Wars series. This rumor has a ring of truth to it. Greg Goodknight ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Kendell) Subject: Re: Nepotism Date: 24 Sep 85 17:50:45 GMT Lubkin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU writes: >Many other such couples, esp. from Clarion. Please expand my list. Didn't E.E. (Doc) Smith's wife help him out with the dialogue and love interest? Otherwise Kinnisson and McDonald would have had to get together over a smoking DeLameter... Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ Date: 25 Sep 85 17:19:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: (resent msg, not sure last got sent...) re: matter Subject: transmission On matter transmission & body replacement: I don't know where this "your body gets replaced atom by atom in the course of a couple of weeks" idea came from, but it is ridiculous. Someone just wrote a msg that covered the major objection (i.e., where do the new atoms come from?), so I won't get into that here. I have heard, though, that replacement takes place on a cellular level over the course of 7 years. I do not remember if neural tissue was included in this replacement claim. My own opinion is: a duplicate may be good enough for people who know me...but it is not good enough for ME. They only have to deal with someone who may-or-may-not be me....I have to take the risk on the duplicate actually not being me....... Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: transporters Date: 24 Sep 85 17:58:47 GMT Lubkin@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU writes: >The unofficial official explanation for how the Enterprise's >transporters work is that they convert matter to energy, zap the >energy somewhere, and then convert the energy back to matter, *not* >by scanning your body for information content, blasting you, and >then making a new one at the other end, as Blish unfortunately >explained in _Spock Must Die_. The two explanations are the same. Otherwise, if you just dumped the energy somewhere else without imposing the information content of the second explanation, the Second Law of Thermodynamics takes over and you just get an undifferentiated cloud of particles at high energy. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ From: fortune!horton@topaz.rutgers.edu (Randy Horton) Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off! Date: 23 Sep 85 08:20:47 GMT wmartin@brl-bmd.UUCP writes: >Of course, there are some of us around that bought books in the >50's or so that believe that 35 cents is an elegant sufficiency for >a paperback book price... > >Anyway, if more people were like me, and didn't pay the insane >prices that are asked these days for paperbacks, the price levels >would stay down, and the publishers would be forced to cut costs to >keep them there. Anybody who pays list price for books is part of >the problem, not part of the solution... > >Will I second this thought. I almost never purchase books at list price. I usually patronize a local chain called Crown Books. Their motto is *If you paid full price, you didn't buy it at Crown Books*. I am not entirely sure that buying books only at discount prices has any effect on publishers, but I save money, and I support a business whose pricing policy I agree with. allegra\ Randy Horton @ Fortune Systems cbosgd \ dual >!fortune!ranhome!randy ihnp4 / nsc / ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 30 Sep 85 1048-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #384 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 30 Sep 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 384 Today's Topics: Books - Cherryh & MacAvoy & Niven & Peake & Zelazny (2 msgs), Films - Back to the Future, Miscellaneous - Nepotism (4 msgs) & Cons & Scientology & Matter Transmission & Price Increases ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 26 Sep 85 20:46:13-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #379 > I have tried to like Cherryh, and it is simply beyond me. She > tackles ambitious subjects; perhaps her problem is that they are > *too* ambitious, i.e., beyond her capabilities. Like others in > this forum, I must read and assimilate correctly some rather large > volumes of scientific literature. One tends, in such > circumstances, to wish the reading one does for relaxation to be > readily accessible (the proverbial 'good read') on first reading I agree. I prefer more relaxing and accessible authors, like LeGuin and Proust and Calvino and Glen Cook. Somehow, nothing I've read by Cherryh has seemed whole or quite coherent. I have no empathy for any of her characters, not even the ones that are supposed to be completely human. By the way, I've heard rumors that Italo Calvino died recently. Bard ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: MacAvoy's TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON Date: 23 Sep 85 18:35:00 GMT I can explain my feelings about TWTBD best by metaphor. It's a nice, delicate, fragile story, full of subtleties that compare to most fantasy (which I also like) the way that a soap bubble compares to a baseball or Szechuan cuisine compares to steak and potatoes. So much writing, even by fairly decent writers, stoops to bashing the gentle reader over the head. In TEA, MacAvoy is so understated without being boring. It's also a story that plays nicely with ambiguities of both plot and character instead of being cut-and-dried. "Concerning matters of taste, there is no disputing." -- Cicero (?) Obviously, Cicero (or whoever) lived before the days of the net. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ Date: Thu Sep 26 12:30:32 1985-PST From: Tom Wadlow Subject: Sentimental Protectors Paula Sanch points out that the unknown map would not be a Map of Pak because protectors would not be so sentimental as to memorialize the Homeworld. It seems reasonable to assume that, if a Map of Pak exists, the Protectors would go to the trouble of seeding that Map with Homo habilis, and possibly even Tree of Life. And not just for sentimental reasons. Remember that one of the functions of a Protector is to weed out mutations. This is because of the relatively high level of radiation at the galactic core. Perhaps the Protectors that built the Ringworld felt that a "control" group of unchanged Pak breeders was necessary. By duplicating the Homeworld, and populating it you could do this. Another possibility is that the Map of Pak may be a giant rest and recreation camp for Protectors. The Ringworld is *big*. We don't know why the Protectors built the other Maps, either, but you can't rule out sentimentality, or even laziness. If you can copy a design for a part of the Ringworld, you don't have to think it up yourself. If you've got adequate maps of some of your favorite planets, why not use them, unless you can think of something better to put there? You've certainly got enough space to indulge even a planetary-sized whim. Tom Wadlow (S-1 Project, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) MILNET: UUCP: ..!ucbvax!dual!mordor!taw ..!decvax!decwrl!mordor!taw ------------------------------ From: cybvax0!mrh@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz) Subject: Re: Gormenghast Date: 25 Sep 85 15:35:23 GMT stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin) writes: > Although I wimped out in the middle of the second volume, Peake's > style was really inspiring. The richness of the stuff made me > pause. I read all three volumes, waiting throughout for something to happen. It seemed like a million exciting threads were all left untied and unresolved. It was magnetic, but gave back nothing for the attraction. > Rolling Stone's special on Sting mentioned that he has the movie > rights to Gormenghast. Gormenghast would make an excellent movie! Gormenghast would make the same kind of movie that Dune and LOTR did. > Bad. It would have to be skeletal, rushed, different, and > unsatisfactory. Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh ------------------------------ Date: 26 Sep 1985 10:57:51-EDT (Thursday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Trumps of Doom While it is true that Amberites are far stronger etc than normal people, they tend to be secretive about it. Neither Merlin nor Luke would be too likely to display the full range of their physical abilities, so each would think the other simply a top athlete. Corwin acted that way to a small degree in "Guns of Avalon". Why shouldn't the Blue Crystal hold Merlin? Bleys and Fiona were able to neutralize Brand's powers, and he knew far more than Merlin does. If Luke was trained by his father, he could easily have inherited much of Brand's abilities. Someone brought up the point that Corwin is insane because blood was spilled on his pattern. Well, based on what Dworkin said in Sign of the Unicorn, it would have to be either his blood or one of his descendants. It can't be his, since he cannot be hurt. Remember that his pattern protects him from harm. He can feel pain, but cannot be injured. And we know it wasn't Merlin. So unless Corwin has another child, not totally unlikely, since he did spend 500yrs wandering around Earth, his insanity must be from another cause, if he is truely insane. Besides, it seems unlikely that Luke, young and relatively inexperienced, could get at Corwin, who has, after all, a few thousand years behind him. ------------------------------ From: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Charles R. Speegle) Subject: more Trumps_of_Doom speculation Date: 25 Sep 85 16:12:19 GMT >> I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is in >> fact the gemstone of a ring. Also Corwin is not dead, but is >> masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much. > Sounds right to me; there is certainly a precedent in > Ganelon/Oberon... When Julia's body was discovered by Merle she was wearing a blue pendant. Rinaldo wanted Merle to wear his ring, which he didn't wear himself. The ring has some sort of unknown property. Bill doesn't know a lot he just asks a lot of questions and then does some deductive reasoning. In the earlier Amber series he does the same for Corwin. Now for some trivia. In what Amber book did Roger Zelany make a cameo appearance? Post to me and unless I am swamped with correct responses I will post the names of those who knew. Charlie ARPA: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS.EDU UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!speegle ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Two questions on "Back to the Future" Date: 23 Sep 85 21:43:03 GMT martin@oliven.UUCP (Martin L.W. Hall) writes: >I have an interesting question: Is November 5 .... an important day >for time travel? Both _Back_to_the_Future_ and _Time_After_Time_ >(about H.G. Wells and Jack the Ripper) use that day as either a >takeoff or arrival date....are there other movies that use this >day...or is it just a coincidence? Given the nature of _Back_to_the_Future_, it's probably not a coincidence. There's a good chance it copied the date from _Time_After_Time_ -- there are many such references in the movie. Frank Adams Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka ------------------------------ Date: Thu 26 Sep 85 11:04:57-PDT From: NORRIS@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: PARENT-CHILD COMBOS >In the edition I read of MZ Bradley's _Bloody Sun_, a >semi-autobiographical essay is included, which gives some details >of her family. I have heard about, but not seen, a book written by >her son, [first name not recalled] Zimmer. I think his name is Paul Zimmer. If he's the one, I didn't much like his books. Aline Norris Baeck Norris@SRI-AI.ARPA ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Re: Nepotism Date: 25 Sep 85 07:46:09 GMT >Many other such couples, esp. from Clarion. Please expand my list. I believe Henry Kuttner and C.L. Moore were married and collaborated on SF. Anyone know about this? J.A. ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: parent-child writing teams Date: 23 Sep 85 22:17:25 GMT Another pair that comes to mind is Joe Haldeman and his son Jack. Frank Adams Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Children of SF authors Date: 23 Sep 85 15:15:54 GMT My wife recently brought home a book by Joe Haldeman and Jack C. Haldeman II; I think the title was Worlds Apart. I don't know the relationship between the two, but father and son sounds reasonable. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Help: World Fantasy Convention I Date: 23 Sep 85 18:43:00 GMT Whenever the WorldCon is outside of the U.S.A., a NASFIC (North American Science Fiction Convention?) is held, usually around the same time. This year's was held in Austin, Texas, and featured a concurrent chili cook-off. The WesterCon is one of the major regional cons, held for the west coast. The Midwest and New England also have major regional cons and I'm sure there will be a deluge of info. if anyone asks. WesterCon is held on July 4 weekend (WorldCon's are usually around Labor Day) and next year's will be in San Diego, while 1987 will be in Oakland. Next year's WorldCon, ConFederation, will be in Atlanta. There are calendar listings of Cons, with addresses for further info., in LOCUS, ANALOG, and ASIMOV's, among others. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #370 Date: 25 Sep 85 14:34:12 GMT >From: Bard Bloom > >RJS, discussing Scientology: >> Postings on scientology are wholly appropriate to the science >> fiction net, as anyone aware of both that religions history and >> the history of sf is aware. Fact: scientology was created by a >> ... [Several facts follow] > >Where does one discover these things? Everything I know about >Scientology is by hearsay. One can learn much of scientology's roots by reading John W. Campbell's editorials from _Astounding_ (now _Analog_) of the late 1930s. Nicholls' _Science_Fiction_Encylopedia_ (Doubleday) has a lengthy, surprisingly broad-minded entry on Scientology and of course an entry on pulpmeister Hubbard. What follows is a brief excerpt of a published interview I did with Donald Kingsbury (Author of _Courtship_Rite). An Interview with DONALD KINGSBURY Conducted by Robert J. Sawyer From the May 1984 issue of SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW SAWYER: You were once involved in Scientology. Or would you prefer not to talk about that? KINGSBURY: Oh, I have no trouble handling the Scientologists. Dianetics, you know, was first presented in _Astounding_. I sent away for the book, actually receiving it before its official publication date, and read it in one sitting. I thought, "that's a very interesting psychotherapy technique; I'll try it out on my girlfriend." I went over to her place, had her lie down on the couch, and closed the living-room door. In the middle of the session, her mother broke in. She thought -- well, you know what she thought: we were doing something indecent. I later married that girl, though. I spent one week of our honeymoon learning Dianetics from L. Ron Hubbard; the other week we went to Martha's Vineyard. I began to have reservations about the scientology organization. I was going to start a group in Montreal, but I found Hubbard very, very, very difficult to work with. I always knew I didn't agree with him on a lot of things. He was impossible to work with if you didn't agree with him and in that way he created scads of heretics. SAWYER: You were untimately excommunicated. KINSBURY: I taught my mathematics course at McGill in the same way they taught Scientology: as workshops, a very fast, very effective method. I wrote a report on the application and sent a copy to Hubbard. He sent me back a letter saying I had plagerized his learning theories. Hubbard built a great apparatus to deal with enemies. In order to have something for the apparatus to do, he goes out and creates enemies. He has a hard time with able people. When he gets able people around him, he excommunicates them. RJS ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: matter transmission Date: 23 Sep 85 22:12:35 GMT DP0N@A.CS.CMU.EDU writes: >let me say it one more way. imagine that we can make the copy >without damaging the original at all. according to the arguments >i'm hearing, if you shoot the original through the head, it will >not experience death now, since there is a copy of it. this is >plainly ridiculous. No, in order for the original not to be dead, you would have to make the copy *after* it was shot. After the copy, there are two people, who each have the same identity as the person before the copy, but they do *not* have the same identity as each other. "Having the same identity" is not an equivalence relation. Frank Adams Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka ------------------------------ From: hound!rfg@topaz.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price increase rip-off! Date: 23 Sep 85 13:38:18 GMT Gee I'm glad to see that there are at least a few people on the net who aren't so yuppily affluent that they can ignore an 18% price increase in a period of disinflation. Yes, I think that the most effective tactic is to 1) not buy at the higher rate and 2) be sure that the retailers notice the fact. I'm pretty sure that the retailers will keep the publishers informed. Now, if the publishers don't give a damn, then we are all in even worse trouble than I think we are... Used book stores seem to be dying out in this area, but they still exist and it seems to me that sf is their second biggest commodity, after romances (of course). Why "of course," Grantges? Well, if you don't know by now, Richard, I"m afraid you'll never learn, but, just as a hint, hard core stuff is mostly illegal 'round here. Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Oct 85 0928-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #385 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 1 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 385 Today's Topics: Books - Herbert & Killian & Peake & STL Stories & Title Requests (2 msgs), Magazines - Analog on Microfiche, Miscellaneous - Star Wars & Price Increases & Matter Transmission & Nepotism (3 msgs) & The Age of SF-LOVERS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ubc-cs!andrews@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jamie Andrews) Subject: Books into movies Date: 23 Sep 85 23:52:59 GMT phillips@trantor.UUCP (Tom Phillips) writes: > ... ... >Did you see the "ornithopter" flapping it's wings in the movie? >Did the Baron look to you as if he was too fat to walk without >suspensor globes? The book specifically mentions that the >stillsuits were a slick gray material, not black leather. > ... ... The thing is that these are two different media, which treat stories in two distinct ways. It's easy to write a book which accurately follows a movie, but often almost impossible to make a movie which accurately follows a book. Everyone has a different idea of how faithfully a book could have been followed; in this case, the author's opinion happens to be not as hard-line as yours. I read that they tried to make the ornithopter wings flap, but it just looked too hokey on film. (I thought that the whole idea of ornithopters was hokey when I first read it!) As for the black stillsuits - I'm sure that getting suits of the exact colour mentioned in the book was not a prime consideration, and certainly can't affect the story line too too much. >Frank Herbert had a very strong motivation for lying about how good >the movie was. Money.... Why not complain instead about the totally bogus preface that Herbert put in front of the latest _Dune_ clones? To paraphrase: "I did not write _Dune_ to make money or to interest others. I wrote it merely because this story was burning inside me to be Written..." Sure. And my real name's Kchula-Rrit. Jamie. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 85 08:25 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Re: THE EMPIRE OF TIME by Crawford Kilian >From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) >The Canadian patriot in me feels its necessary to point out to the >world that Crawford Killian is one of the many fine Canadian >science fiction writers (others include this year's Nebula winner >William Gibson, Spider Robinson, Donald Kingsbury, and Wayland >Drew. Not to knock your patriotism, but ain't no way you can count Spider Robinson in that list. He's a former New Yorker who happens to have emmigrated to Canada. If you can count him, does that make Americans out of all the Canadian actors and other performers who live and work in the US? ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 85 01:39:58 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Gormenghast I read the Gormenghast trilogy too. I have to agree that it was kind of a study in not terribly exciting characters. The first two books are very different from the third, especially in setting. I think I preferred the first two volumes. All in all, I would say that I agree with Brian Clapper's description of the trilogy. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 85 15:17:29 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Re: Slower than light space travel > From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock) > Can anyone give me (no deluges or flames, please) title(s) of SF > coming from the assumption that there is *no* way around the speed > of light... How about _A_Gift_From_Earth_ by Niven? And other related stories? A good portion of Niven's Known Space takes place before FTL was "discovered". Most of them are short stories. But the whole concept of Ramscoop robots and colony ships is based on non-FTL travel. I could rattle off a bunch of names, but my Niven collection is at home, and besides, I'm sure everyone gets the idea. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 85 17:50:33 PDT From: William S. Sinclair Subject: Need title of short story, and author This was a short story somewhere. I need the author and title. Our hero emigrates from Earth to what he thinks will be a Utopian planet. When he gets there, he finds out that the partial pressure of oxygen is very low, so that everyone has to have an oxygen pack. Furthermore, the local honcho is renting the things out for whatever the market will bear, and has a way of turning the packs off by remote control for anyone who doesn't pay up. The story is about how they depose the "oxygen baron". Thanx in advance; Bill Sinclair ------------------------------ From: grady@ucbvax.ARPA (Steven Grady) Subject: Re: Stories where H. sap. gets its come-uppance Date: 27 Sep 85 23:33:34 GMT On the otherside of the coin, I recall a story (book?) wherein the upstart new Earthlings first come out into space, after having been given the technology for space drive, and suddenly the galaxy finds itself up a creek, because the humans are conniving, conning, and in general swindling the other people of the galaxy, because it turns out the humans are just plain smarter than the other races. Just out of curiosity, anyone got a name for this story? Steven ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 85 09:43:29 PDT (Friday) Subject: Analog on MicroFiche From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA The last couple issues of Analog had ads for all fifty years of Astounding/Analog on MicroFiche. Has anyone broken down and forked out the eight hundred dollars for the set and the reader? How is the quality? Any general comments, or warnings? It seems like a great deal for us addicts. Henry III ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.rutgers.edu (The Polymath) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #374 Date: 24 Sep 85 22:45:42 GMT >From: Bard Bloom >Maybe light-sabres are more expensive than blasters? Or maybe it >costs more (money, time, talent) to train people in light-sabre than >in blaster? > >Or perhaps light-sabres are more sporting (you can run from them, >sometimes) and not appropriate for the Empire to use. > >Or maybe you can learn to use the Force from light-sabre training, >and the Empire doesn't want ten billion grunts running around with >moderate skill in the Force. Who knows? Maybe one of them will be >stronger than Darth Vader. I'm jumping in blindfolded here because our news software was down for almost 2 weeks and I've missed a lot. This appears to be a discussion of why Jedi use light sabers and Imperial Storm Troopers don't. For a pretty good discussion of why modern soldiers aren't equipped with swords see Heinlein's _Glory Road_. The basic premise is that almost any moron can be taught to point and shoot a rifle in a matter of weeks. To be seriously good with a sword takes _years_ of loving practice. The sword is, in some ways, a superior weapon. It's better for close-in, hand to hand combat and it never jams or runs out of ammunition. The training factor is what makes it impractical for use by grunts. There is the problem that a blaster allows attack from a distance. The Jedi appear to get around this by being so good they can deflect blaster bolts with their sabers. Imagine trying to teach _that_ technique to a platoon of raw storm-trooper recruits (evolution in action? (-: ). The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Let's try to roll back the SF price Date: 27 Sep 85 00:42:00 GMT And if you can't find an independent bookstore in your area, the nearest one is as close as your mailbox. Some advertise in magazines like Science Fiction Chronicle or Locus. Some will come to you -- if you go to a convention, the attendance list might be sold to booksellers, who will send you a catalog. Many send catalogs monthly or bi-monthly listing new books received in stock, now and then going through older books, used and unused, laying around the store. Unlike Publisher's Clearing House, though, if you don't order something within five or six catalogs, they usually will stop sending them unless you send a postcard indicating interest or send a couple dollars for postage. If they don't have what you want, and it's still in print, they'll order it for you. Some will maintain lists of books their customers are looking for, keeping an eye open for them when buying used books. Many will give little mini-reviews of books they or their friends have read. (And if it's a real dog, Mark Zeising will tell you so.) Note that some booksellers (David Aronovitz, for example) are mostly trying to sell to collectors, and their prices will tend to run higher than others'. If you just have to have a Gnome Press edition of something this month, they're a good place to look, but if you just want any old version of *Nine Hundred Grandmothers* you'd be better off ordering from one of the more general-purpose guys. (But *nobody* has John Collier books.) The places I've done business with have all been pretty good. Mark Zeising in Willimantic, CN, runs a nice business and is our favorite. He keeps a good stock of new books in and cycles through his backlist once or twice a year. His catalogs are fun to read. Robert and Phyllis Weinberg in Chicago (Oak Park?) have a good selection of fantasy, horror, Sherlockiana, mystery, old pulps, and comics, as well as SF. The backlist is a little weaker, but they put a trivia question in every catalog (and award a prize to the first order with the correct answer). David Aronovitz in Flint, MI, deals mostly in first and rare editions. Useful to know if you decide to turn collector. You can also get things like third edition hardback Cabell for reasonable prices. Pandora's Books in Neche, ND, sent me a catalog yesterday for the first time. They had semi-reasonable prices on hardbacks, but paperbacks were kind of high. Edward R. Hamilton (somewhere in CN) is like a one-man Publisher's Central Bureau, with about the same prices and a little (but not much) more esoteric stock. I've also had a few catalogs from a place in England, but have forgotten the name. Never ordered from them, though, because I was too lazy to get around to getting an international money order. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 85 01:30:50 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Matter transmitters, souls, and Reformed Sufis Here's where I stick my nose into the fray and get it chopped off! It seems to me that much of the debate here in the matter transmitter/recorder discussion really is a question of whether or not there is such a thing as a soul which exists separate and distinct from the physical person. If there is a soul, copies will be qualitatively different from the original since the soul, not being matter as we know it, will not be copied/recorded by such a device. Now for the strange questions: assuming that there is a soul and that it can be recorded along with the body's matter, what are the moral imperatives about your backups? Are they different people from you? Do you have the right to erase them or is that an illegal act of murder/suicide? Which one of them is legally you if it comes to a court fight? (The same questions apply to clones if you accept there is such a thing as a human soul that arises at the moment of conception/creation.) If the soul cannot be recorded does this mean that your backups have no soul? Or will they magically develop one when played into a physical body? Suppose your backups are played into someone else's body/clone, which one of you will the creature actually be? Or would it go insane (as in the Orson Scott Card books)? The Reformed Sufi stories, which ran in Analog a couple of years ago, touched on these issues some. People interested in this discussion might want to go check these stories out. Another little side note, do realize just how fast a matter transmitter would have to be to to record and pass on all the quantam information of a living creature? There was a story of someone building a matter transmitter which worked fine enough for inanimate objects but was never able to transmit a living object successfully, they all died in transit. I believe the inanimate objects all had funny wavy patterns in their structure after transmission. Steve Z. ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Nepotism Date: 27 Sep 85 01:08:00 GMT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA > Lisa Tuttle & Charles Platt (or whoever it was she married) > C. L. Moore & Ed Hamilton (ditto) > Don & Elsie Wollheim (DAW Books. Now daughter too) Corrections: Lisa Tuttle is married to Christopher Priest. To my knowledge, Charles Platt has never married anyone. C.L. Moore was married to Henry Kuttner. Leigh Brackett was married to Ed Hamilton. Additions: The Wollheims' daughter is Betsy. (DAW has been seriously ill, by the way.) James Blish was married to Virginia Kidd. Marion Zimmer Bradley and Paul Zimmer are sister and brother. John Clees, Diana Paxson, and Paul Zimmer are married to one another. C.J. Cherryh's brother, David Cherry, is a fantasy and SF artist. Robert (Buck) and Juanita Coulson are married. Cyril Kornbluth's wife, Mary, did some editorial work. Alexei and Corey Panshin (husband and wife) have written together. Wendy and Richard Pini (husband and wife) did *Elfquest* together. Arkady and Boris Strugatsky are brothers. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ From: friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Nepotism Date: 27 Sep 85 14:01:00 GMT Another husband-wife pair of sf writers: James Blish and J. A. Lawrence ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: parent-child writing teams Date: 26 Sep 85 14:29:28 GMT franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >Another pair that comes to mind is Joe Haldeman and his son Jack. I thought that was Joe Haldeman and his *brother* Jack. I don't think Joe is old enough to have a son who has been writing for 6-7 years. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 85 01:57:08 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: The age of SF-L ... I would guess that the volume number is a pretty accurate estimate of the age of SF-Lovers. I remember being introduced to it between six and seven years ago and it was a couple of years old then. Somewhere in the archives is a slightly humorous history of SF-L from its earlist direct mail days to a point after Roger Duffey took it over and started the digestifying process on it. Anybody else still reading that attended the NorEasCon II SF-L party? (Lauren, or Chip, or any of the old heavy contributers?) Do any of you have any idea how old the digest actually is? Please correct me if I am wrong. The marriage of SF-L and the Usenet interest group wasn't immediate. There was apparently a time lag before SF-L found or was directed to forwarding people/sites and onto the USENet, Dec internal Net and various other nets from the arpanet. Steve Z. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Oct 85 0954-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #386 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 1 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 386 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Vardeman, Films - Back to the Future, Miscellaneous - Nepotism (2 msgs) & Matter Transmission (3 msgs) & Support Small Bookstores ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: 3comvax!michaelm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS digest entry Date: 26 Sep 85 23:31:36 GMT >By the way here is Asimov's chronology, as he published it. >The whole article in LOCUS is good if you haven't seen it. > > 1. The Complete Robot (short stories) 1982 > 2. The Caves of Steel (1954) > 3. The Naked Sun (1957) > 4. The Robots of Dawn (1983) > 5. Robots and Empire (1985) [not yet published, could be > off schedule] > 6. one more transition novel, planned. > 7. The Currents of Space (1952) > 8. The Stars, Like Dust... (1951) > 9. Pebble in the Sky (1950) > 10. Prelude to Foundation (planned) > 11. Foundation (1951) > 12. Foundation and Empire (1952) > 13. Second Foundation (1953) > 14. Foundation's Edge (1982) > 15. Foundation and Earth (in progress) And what about *The End of Eternity* which acts as a prelude (from the far future) for the entire series? Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation (415) 960-9367 ..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: MUTINY ON THE ENTERPRISE by Robert E. Vardeman Date: 25 Sep 85 14:20:26 GMT The jacket reads: "The ship is crippled in orbit around a dangerous, living, breathing planet, and a desperate peace mission to the Orion Arm is stalled. Kirk has never needed his crew more. But a lithe, alien woman is casting a spell of pacifism -- and now mutiny -- over the crew. Suddenly Captain Kirk's journey for peace has turned into a terrifying war -- to retake command of his ship!" If you've never read a Star Trek novel, thinking that such books are all just cheap, juvenile rip-offs from the TV series, think again. I've read about half a dozen Star Trek novels, and they seem to be pretty representative of SF in general, running the gamut from dull to very exciting. MUTINY ON THE ENTERPRISE is a good example. The story is well paced, and there are two or three things going on at the same time. Further, the "alien woman" mentioned on the jacket isn't as one-sided as you might think. The book presents a couple of interesting ideas, and seems to be true to the spirit of Star Trek in general. About the only criticism I have is that there's one too many Spock vs. McCoy spats. This book doesn't have the depth and complexity of two other Star Trek books I've read, THE PRICE OF THE PHOENIX and THE FATE OF THE PHOENIX by Marshak and Culbreath, but I still enjoyed it very much. I give the book 2.5 stars (i.e., good). -- Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: hadron!klr@topaz.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Re: The town in Back to the Future Date: 25 Sep 85 20:27:56 GMT >From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >I just watched Gremlins which was free with Teen Wolf, and guess >what I recognized? The town was the same as Back to the Future, >but with some signs changed. They never gave a really good view of >the clock tower, but the movie theatre he crashed into on his way >back was the same one where Snow White was enjoyed by the little >monsters until they "blowed up, sir". > >Just another proof it was a back lot. To see the town, go on the Universal Studios Tour, and look for the only large, park like area in the back lot. Last time I was there, they were shooting some scenes for "Knight Rider". I still think that the Mall Scenes were shot at the Orange County Mall, about the time of the last Fall DECUS, early December of '84. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 85 14:10 EDT From: Allan C. Wechsler Subject: SF Authors' children The late Paul M. A. Linebarger (Cordwainer Smith) had (at least) a daughter named Marcia. The last I knew (c. 1979?) she was in MIT's graduate linguistics program. She said, "I don't like SF -- only Cordwainer Smith," but I don't know if she was being straight. I think she has one of those completely personal senses of humor that is only understandable to one's close friends, and I am certainly not one of hers, so if she was joking it went right by me. MIT's alumni office will probably have more recent info. ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@topaz.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Re: Children of SF authors Date: 25 Sep 85 17:32:36 GMT > My wife recently brought home a book by Joe Haldeman and Jack C. > Haldeman II; I think the title was Worlds Apart. I don't know the > relationship between the two, but father and son sounds > reasonable. The two Haldemans are brothers; Joe must be in his early forties, and I'm sure Gay would have told us at INCONJUNCTION last year if they'd had any kids old enough to write. (BTW, if you look in last year's Aug. or Sept. Locus, you'll see Joe and Gay (his wife) dressed up in Rocky Horror outfits that they wore in part of my play, ROCKEY HALDEMAN HORROR SHOW, a perversion of the original musical, in which they appeared...) arlan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 85 13:29:15 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Matter transmission and duplication To: pugh jon%e.mfenet@LLL-MFE.ARPA >From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >I wonder about their first words. Would [duplicates] all say the >same thing after walking out of the machine? Would it be the same >thing the original said? How quickly would they pick up on the >fact they were not the original? There is a really great scene along these lines in Varley's _Ophiuchi_Hotline_. When a woman wakes up from having her mind backed up, she notices that the leaves are a different color, and realizes that time has passed and she must be a duplicate. She then asks several questions only to have what she just said handed to her neatly typewritten, and to be told that this had happened several times before and she that she repeats herself each time. She is a prisoner and is told not to try to escape as her captors know exactly how she will try (how she did try) to escape, and are prepared for it. >Of course, this negates the prime reason that people live, so that >they can die, hopefully having passed on their knowledge and >genetic info to their children and allowing them to continue. It >would be very selfish of a person to keep replicating himself in an >already over populated world. And who would decide who got to live >again? Popular vote? Elvis Lives? Whoever could afford it, I suppose. That may be the main reason biologically, but people do not usually think like that. I for one would like to live indefinitely. I am not convinced that the world is overpopulated. The solar system certainly isn't. I don't think people would just start making duplicates of themselves (as opposed to having one on file in case of death). If there were suddenly two of you, the duplicate would have no job and no place to live (could you live with yourself? I would probably kick myself out within a few hours!) >The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that cheating death may >be fun, but it's not a really sensible long term solution to life. >After all, you still have to die, each and every replication. Why >put yourself through that pain again {, and again}? With that attitude, why go on living now, risking a painful death, when you could die painlessly today? There must be more good than bad in life, otherwise why live at all? Given that, why not live as long as possible? In any case, you (whichever iteration you were) would have no memory of death, since in each case the backup was made before each death. So 'you' would experience death at most once. Many people are not bothered by the posibilty of their own death, but are very bothered by the deaths of loved ones. No doubt many people will take this into account and will only start having themselves backed up when they are married and/or have children that depend on them. One exception to this would be if someone is very sick and in pain and near death. It would be cruel to keep re-creating them only to have them die again a few hours or days later. Hopefully this dilemma will never arise, as the technology needed for duplication should be sufficient to cure any disease, including the effects of old age (see Niven's _A_World _Out_Of_Time_ in which a matter transmitter cures old age). ...Keith ------------------------------ From: hadron!klr@topaz.rutgers.edu (Kurt L. Reisler) Subject: Re: Who are you? Date: 25 Sep 85 20:33:37 GMT Along the same line, there was a story that appeared in _OMNI_ several years ago. It involved a time in the "future" when the Soviets had taken over the US, in a non-violent coup. They were punishing one of the Democratic Revolutionaries by repeatedly killing him, while transferring his "personality" and memories to a clone, up to the moment of death. The methods of execution that were used were chosen for the psychological horror, such as being fed slowly into an incinerator, feet first. Each clone remembered the previous "original's" death, and was usually forced to go clean it up and bury it. All this, just to change a persons way of thinking? I have forgotten what the point of all this was. Oh well. ------------------------------ From: netex!ewiles@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ed Wiles) Subject: Re: Matter Transmission/identity on file Date: 25 Sep 85 20:24:07 GMT >[Keith Lynch:] > Postultimate thought: if you put yourself on file could > you ever truly die? > >[James J. Lippard:] > Sure. If all the copies get wiped out... > >[Mark Leeper:] > I think that there is a misconception here. Your species remains > reconstructable while your genetic code is on file, but you do > not. >[(Sorry, I lost the name.)] > *If* just the genetic code is on file. If all the information > about your identity was put on file, you *could* come back... > >[Mark Leeper:] > OK, so there is more of you on file than just your genetic code. > Then a new copy is made. I think the point still is valid. As > far as the world is concerned you are alive, but that is an > illusion. You are dead. There just is a perfect copy around that > thinks it is you. I seem to remember something called the Turing Test. In effect, if you cannot tell the difference between two "things/people/etc...", then there *is* *no* *difference*!!!! > The fact that two or three of these things can be made is the > clincher. They can't all be the original. By the definition above, why not? At the time of their creation/construction (whatever), they *are* the original. (Remember, A difference that you cannot see is not a difference. And don't pick on the word "see", you know what I mean.) I do agree, that with time, they will probably not develop in the same way as the first would have. If you inform them that they were not the first in the series, this would have an effect on them that the first would not have encountered. If you attempt to hide this from them, that attempt would also have an effect on them. Though not as severe as the prior one would. > Take my word for it, if you are destroyed and replaced by an exact > copy with your mind, you are dead. The exact copy is only that. > I know. It happens to me every night. The first sentence is apparently an attempt to "prove-by-authority", I knew about, and disregarded, this method long before my college class in logic. The second sentence I have already dealt with above. The third, and fourth sentences seem to be mildly sarcastic and, if that is how they were meant, should have had a "smiley" after them. (I could be wrong, maybe he does die every night. My question then: Do you beleive in, and or have proof of, reincarnation? :-) ) E. L. Wiles ------------------------------ From: teklds!davidl@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Levine) Subject: Support Small Bookstores Date: 24 Sep 85 17:12:01 GMT horton@fortune.UUCP (Randy horton) writes: >I almost never purchase books at list price. I usually patronize a >local chain called Crown Books. Their motto is *If you paid full >price, you didn't buy it at Crown Books*. I am not entirely sure >that buying books only at discount prices has any effect on >publishers, but I save money, and I support a business whose >pricing policy I agree with. I'm afraid that buying books at megachains such as Crown Books (and Waldenbooks and B. Dalton's) does have an effect on publishers. This effect is that only books that will sell millions of copies get published at all. This means a diminished number of titles, a limit to experimentation in literature, and a glut of mediocre books by "name" authors while interesting new authors can't get published. See, Crown Books and their ilk buy books by the carload. Go into any of these megachain stores and you'll see shelves and shelves of books, but these consist of hundreds of copies each of a limited number of titles. You'll note that these are mostly recently-published books, too. The chain stores don't feel they can afford to keep a book around unless it's "moving." If a book fails to sell, they tear the covers off and return them to the publisher AND THROW AWAY THE TEXT. (They're not even allowed to GIVE away the insides.) On the other hand, independent bookstores buy books in much smaller lots. Go into any well-stocked independent bookstore and you'll find many fewer copies, but of many more titles per foot of shelf space. Only the independents have books published more than two years ago. Only independents have books from small publishers and obscure authors. Only independents have personnel who really care about books and will help you track down those out-of-print gems you've read about in SF-LOVERS. In my experience, the vast majority of chain-store personnel might as well be working at K-Mart for all they know or care about books. (There are, of course, certain notable exceptions.) The problem is that the large chains buy books in such overwhelming quantities that they become the publishers' major concerns. Today, there is an increasing trend for large publishers to buy manuscripts that they think will sell, not to the public, but to the bookstore chains! The chains, of course, only buy books they know will sell in the millions. This leads to a glut of "Bestsellers" and a dearth of experimentation by the publishers. The authors, who, of course, want to sell to the large publishers, may feel pressured to tailor their wares for mass consumption. This leads to swarms of Tolkien clones and "Bestsellers." (Have you ever noticed that "Bestseller" is a book category like "Non-Fiction" or "Romance?" "Bestsellers" are written not to be read, but to sell.) Of course, by buying in such large quantities, the major chains can afford to charge very low prices for their books. The smaller stores can't. However, for the money you get personal service, attention to detail, people who care, and an atmosphere that the chain stores lack completely. If your local bookstore doesn't have all these qualities, you can probably find one that does nearby. That is, if it hasn't gone out of business. Today, the smaller bookstores are in desperate straits because of the size and buying power of the chains. With a book-buying populace as small as America's is today, competition for your book dollars is fierce, and the chains are winning because of their low prices and top locations. Many small bookstores are being forced out of existence. Therefore, I buy my books at independent booksellers as a rule. It's a small price to pay for continued variety and experimentation in literature. David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP] (teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA/CSNET] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 1 Oct 85 1012-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #387 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 1 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 387 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Critics (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue 24 Sep 85 12:55:28-EDT From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #377 > Good writing can be about anything; great writing could probably > be about nothing - not that this is necessarily admirable or > desirable. Hoary plot devices must be discarded, wherever they > occur. These seem inconsistent. Unless predicate calculus doesn't apply to criticism, (Good writing can be about anything) ==> (good writing can use a hoary plot device.) Kind of like _Paradise_Lost_ and the writings of James Branch Cabell and lots of others. Perhaps Tucker meant, ``Hoary plot devices should be used with caution.'' > Real people don't expostulate for pages, like Jubal Harshaw or > Lazarus Long or Davis Tucker? I know several people who do expostulate for hours, and sound very much like Lazarus Long (except less competant). > As a concrete suggestion, I think more works by South American > surrealist authors, of whom there are many, should be published in > science fiction magazines and by science fiction publishing houses > - and don't condemn it as boring literature, or highbrow, because > much of it is exuberant, interesting, and well-written. nI only know of Borges, and would very much like names of others. Especially if their works are available in translation. Bard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 85 21:42:39 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Future of SF To: druri!dht@TOPAZ.RUTGERS.EDU >From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) >Some would have the field move strictly back to its roots, to the >Great Idea and hard science and predictions. Others would have it >move into the mind and the surreal, become experimental in all >ways, and cast off the chains of its past. Both are doctrinaire and >dogmatic. I think there is room for both, and for much more. Whatever readers are willing to pay for. SF is already to the stage where it is somewhat silly to think of it as just one genre. Just look at the enormous variety of things discussed on this list. Is anyone interested in as much as half of these messages? I am not. Of course everyone picks a different half. >Quality writing means attention to details like plot twists and >avoiding loose ends, characters who live and breathe and talk like >they were people, not cartoon characters. Real people don't >expostulate for pages, like Jubal Harshaw or Lazarus Long ... Lazarus Long is my favorite SF character! And one of the most believable (excluding the trivial). >James Clavell worked just as hard to make "Shogun" believable as >Herbert did with "Dune". I didn't find DUNE at all believable. I don't see what people see in that book. >Motivation, of a society or an individual or a destiny, requires >some kind of internal consistency, unless the novel is one that is >deliberately inconsistent ... Agreed. It should also be consistent with known (or extrapolated) science. The lack of this is what ruins most SF for me. The only deliberately inconsistent books I have ever enjoyed are those by Robert Anoton Wilson. >Hard science fiction needs to take a long look at its traditional >insensitivity to its characters and its dialogue. All else being equal, I would agree. But there is too little really good hard SF for me to want there to be more stumbling blocks in the way of potential new SF authors and new books. I would hate to see criticisms like this discourage Robert Forward (who is on the net and possibly on SF-Lovers) from writing more stories. >I myself would like to see a time when science fiction is no longer >considered merely a "genre", but a large part of the literary >scene, as biographies and spy novels are considered now. Or vice versa. All other fields to be a sub-genre of SF. These literature types are incredibly stuck up. Harper's just published another critique of SF. Of *ALL* SF. The second in as many years. Criticizing all SF is as stupid as criticizing all movies, or all paintings, or all music. Especially since the critic obviously didn't have any idea what he was talking about. Whenever a 'mainstream' author attempts SF, he generally uses plot elements that have been obsolete in SF since the 1940s. Classical music is hardly being composed at all anymore ... But then, it doesn't have to be. Music does not become dated. SF does. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Brin, Sagan, etc. Date: 23 Sep 85 19:08:00 GMT >> I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who didn't like >> Startide Rising. Can't figure out why it won the Hugo and Nebula. >> If this was the best of the year it must have been a very bad >> year. >Agreed! Startide Rising was awful, with one of the most >unconvincing, most cliched, and generally worst depictions of >aliens I've come across in some time. Possibly tied for "most >overrated" with Gene Wulf's (sp?) extremely bad novel "Shadow of >the Torturer". Aw, c'mon guys. Let's start a "Tastes Great" vs. "Less Filling" argument. It depends on what you read SF for. Personally, I'm happy to sit down with a text book when I want to learn science. For reading SF, I like an engaging plot with plausible characters, and I can even be convinced by the author to like a story that I knew I'd hate, e.g., NEUROMANCER. Brin and Wolfe render pleasant dreams in mutually different but fresh ways that allow me to share the dream by that marvelous translating device, the book. As far as details of science, which are the more important details to get right, quark-quark interactions and alien respiratory systems or the examination of what happens to individuals and cultures as a result of certain scientific/speculative conditions occuring? Again, strictly personal opinion, but I prefer absorbing the gestalt of the forest to the minutiae of the trees -- feels more liberating and expanding, don't you know? I happen to agree with you about Greg Bear; he paints nice pictures that have a high degree of technical verisimilitude. (I've talked to the man and he has a manic sense of research and does *not* have a science degree or job. As far as I know, he's a full time fiction writer, which is a truly endangered species.) But as nice (and moving!) as the pictures are, they haven't (yet) approached the breathtaking grandness of Brin or Wolfe. Admittedly, STARTIDE is direct descendant of 50's and 60's Heinlein-style SF, but there is a depth and texture to it that Heinlein acheived but rarely and most others of the era not at all. The Wolfe is almost *sui generis* , but it, too has a richness of plot and character that is hard to match. To not like something is one thing, but to dismiss it as "bad". I wish more people would swallow the idea that it is possible not to like a good book and to love a mediocre one. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: sun!blueskye@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tim Ryan) Subject: Science Fiction, Art, Criticism, and Sam Delany Date: 25 Sep 85 02:22:15 GMT Someone (sorry, but I don't remember your name), recently requested that s/he would like to hear what a "real critic" had to say about life, the universe, and science fiction. Lo, and behold, there is a major critical review of the field in the October, 1985 edition of _Harper's_ magazine (available at better bookstores). Below you will find quotes from this essay. NECESSARY DISCLAIMERS: 1. I personally do not agree with everything that is quoted here. 2. The material in quotes is Copyright, 1985, Harper's Magazine Foundation, and is used without permission. That said, the author of the essay is Luc Sante', who has written for the _New York Review of Books_, _Manhattan_, _inc._, &c. This is a real, professional, mainstream critic here, folks, so listen up to what some people in the "real world" :-) think about our beloved SF. (deleted) Again, I disavow any personal connection or support of statement in quotes. So don't flame me personally (please! I mean it!). Tim Ryan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Oct 85 0915-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #388 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 2 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 388 Today's Topics: Books - Aldiss & Hubbard & McKinley & First SF, Television - Alfred Hitchcock Presents & Amazing Stories, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: Excerpts From Brian Aldiss interview Date: 29 Sep 85 23:03:51 GMT EXCERPTS: "Brian Aldiss: Helliconia Calling", by Mike Barson HEAVY METAL, October 1985 HM: ...Now that it's complete, are you pleased... with the Helliconia trilogy? BA: Oh, yes... part of the impulse to write Helliconia was to get on my horse again and write a big, solid novel that *no* one could say wasn't sf. HM: Which was the charge leveled at some of your experimental novels, such as "Report On Probability A". Did the controversy and criticism bother you? BA: Not really. With "Report"... I knew what I wanted to do in it, and I feel I did it... Perhaps it was just too much of a surprise. I'd always thought science fiction was *about* surprise; that a novel that took you by the throat was what everyone loved. It was what *I* loved most - that wonderful sense of dislocation that the best sf induced... Well, I miscalculated. In England they hated it; over here there was just a stunned silence. Everyone was asking "What is this shit Aldiss *doing*? He's finished; it's all over; he can't even think of a bloody plot." It was really quite funny, the vehemence of the plot. But now, "Report" is in its fifth printing, which proves what I've always thought: the science fiction readership is willing to keep working at something until they understand it. They're extraordinarily hungry for an intellectual challenge. HM: What about the shags [hacks] of today? Do you see a strong field out there now producing vital, original works of science fiction? BA: ...at the moment, there seems to be a great deal of stagnation in the field. No natural subversives have popped up to take the place of Phillip K. Dick... What I loved mot about him was, he had the pure quill, and he never deserted science fiction. HM: There seems to be a lot of back-to-the-basics sf... these days, stuff that consciously is striving for the feel of the thirties. BA: Nostalgia doesn't interest me; it's an awful disease, and everyone today seems infected with it... It's very insular, and it doesn't talk to the world as the best sf should. HM: And then there's fantasy... BA: Fantasy really is literature for teenagers. Teenagers don't have a lot of money, but what they do have is a lot of time. So they'll read all nine volumes of Stephen Donaldson, or whomever... HM: You once... [said] that all genres eventually wear out... do you see that already happening? BA: ...now, I don't look upon science fiction as a genre at all. Rather, it *contains* genres: space opera, the catastrophe novel, and so on... The term "sf" is just a publishing category. There's no reason why authors need to subscribe to someone's limitation of the term. If you think of science fiction as a *mode*, it's much easier to write. That way one can move from one mode to another without having to worry whether or not he's writing science fiction... ------------------------------ From: berman@isi-vaxa.ARPA (Richard Berman) Date: 30 Sep 1985 1045-PDT (Monday) Subject: LRH's early SF I've seen several mentions (two, to be exact) about Hubbard having destroyed all his early SF. Actually, only one person asserted this on SF-LOVERS. The other queried it. A friend of mine knows Hubbard's literary agent, and this is simply not the case. In fact, recently (1.5 to 2 years ago) I purchased an anthology which included Fear, Typewriter in the Sky, and, my favorite, Slaves of Sleep. This was a *new* book. But all of these stories were written in the 40's. I hope this clears up the rumor. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Beauty by Robin McKinley Date: 23 Sep 85 15:41:50 GMT > From: Bart > Those of you who liked _The_Blue_Sword_ by Robin McKinley will be > happy to hear that they have just released _Beauty_ in paperback. > This is a full length version of the _Beauty_and_the_Beast_ tale. > I would recommend either of these books for anyone who likes well > written fantasy with a strong female protagonist. *Grumble* I'm not quite ready to flame this, but at least I'll grumble a bit. What is this "strong female protagonist" puppy-barf? I've never been interested in seeking out books with "strong female protagonists," I just like good books. Robin McKinley's BEAUTY is a very, very good book. Her writing is as simple as Gene Wolfe's is complex, and every bit as delightful to read. As any good book does, it has a good, fun story, and a great deal more. I recommend it to anyone who enjoys reading. SKZB ------------------------------ From: 3comvax!michaelm@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael McNeil) Subject: Re: What should be your FIRST sf book ??? Date: 26 Sep 85 23:41:36 GMT I'd like to suggest a Clifford Simak book for someone's first science fiction reading. I've long thought that *City*, among other good books of his, might be a promising candidate. For those who think that short stories are good to begin with, the book is organized as semi-independent stories on a theme. Michael McNeil 3Com Corporation (415) 960-9367 ..!ucbvax!hplabs!oliveb!3comvax!michaelm ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Alfred Hitchcock Presents (NBC, Sunday 8.30PM Pacific) Date: 30 Sep 85 05:10:33 GMT Good Evening.. Tonight we embark upon a journey linking the past, the present, and (we hope) the future. The first episode of the new NBC series "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" has just premiered, and it looks to be a winner. The worst part of AHP is the timeslot. Coming right after "Amazing Stories," if that Spielberg series continues to be as bad as the first episode was, it'll scare off a lot of potential viewers. Maybe if they switch timeslots... The opening and closing scenes are computer enhanced and colored versions of the original "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" introductions and trailers. They are very well done, and Alfred (dead a number of years) looks as chipper as ever. The wonders of Technology... The opening story is that of a couple. He is an English professor, just moved into town to teach at a new college. She is a blushing bride, a dancer, and an ex-student. She is also quite unstable emotionally (driven home quite forcefully by an opening scene of quick camera cuts from a group of cowboys roping and branding a horse and a group of doctors restraining and giving her electroshock, causing her to awake from her nightmare. Very powerful image, and quite rare for TV). There is an obvious reference to the movie "Frances" here, and they use a Jessica Lange clone (named Beth Miller, who did a good acting job here) as well. The only time our young bride is happy is dancing. She goes to a dance class with a new female acquaintance, and it is the only time she opens up and smiles. The longer she dances (and she unfortunately dances too long, the only real gripe with the show -- a bit of sloppy editing that made me start thinking of MTV spinoffs) the wider the smile. So happy, in fact, that she decides to walk home. On the way, she meets a number of nefarious characters, sees herself followed, chased, and dashes her way into her haven of safety, home. And is attacked. You never see Him, but there are a couple of VERY powerful scenes including one of her being pulled back down a flight of stairs and around a corner by someone that never shows on camera. Her husband is called to the center where she is taken. He talks to the police ("There's nothing we can do. Even if we find the guy, it'll be almost impossible to make it stick"), and takes her home. On the way home, she suddenly turns around and yells "Thats him!" He stops the car, she's sure its him, so he gets out and follows. There is a fight, ending with the rapist being strangled and killed. He returns to his wife, and says "It's finished, you're safe" and starts driving home again. About two blocks later, she's yelling "There he is, that's him!" again as the classic look of horror comes over the husbands face (Rod Serling would have sold his soul for that camera shot....). A very powerful and classic retelling of an Alfred Hitchcock Presents story, this episode was as good as the Spielberg fiasco was bad. I only hope that it gets a chance to rise above its predecessor in the timeslots and show the world that episodic anthologies can work. Don't miss this stuff, folks... Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Amazing Stories (NBC, Sunday, 8PM Pacific) Date: 30 Sep 85 04:49:36 GMT (spoiler warning -- don't read if you don't like plot discussions) The much heralded "Amazing Stories", conceived and brought to you by NBC and executive producer Steven (Jaws, ET, Close Encounters of the Third Kind) Spielberg made its debut tonight with great fanfare and very disappointing results. If the first espisode is typical of the tone of the series, it will probably turn into an unmitigated disaster. "Ghost Train," which was directed by Spielberg, stars (in relative order of appearance) the mystical/senile grandfather, the loving but terribly practical father, the starry-eyed, open minded boy, the obligatory disgruntled but dedicated and loving piece of cardboard (uh, wife) who gets appropriately hysterical upon command, and a cast of stereotypes upon demand (vote more most unrealistic stereotype goes to the Black Psychiatrist called out -- the Black Psychiatrist successfully holding down a practice in farmland Iowa...) No names are given to any character because none of them rise enough above their stereotypes to make names useful. Begin plot summary The story opens with the father bringing Ompah home. Father has bought the land that Ompah grew up on and built a house there, and they are now going to take care of him as any good Family would. When they get there, Ompah declares that they've built the house in a very bad place. A story is told (to Starry-Eyed Boy, with Father listening in) about engine 407, that derailed on that very spot 75 years ago (killing everyone) because a boy fell asleep on the track waiting for that train to take him to friends over the horizon. Dialog: SEB: Ompah, were you that little boy? Ompah: *heartfelt sob* I still am, son. He tells the SEB that he survived because the brakeman couldn't bear to run him over and locked up the wheels, causing everything to run off the track and the locomotive stopped 15 yards from him (he, of course, didn't wake up despite the noise and the vibration of sleeping on the track, and the brakeman had good enough vision to see a boy sized bundle on a track, at night, from far enough away to be able to stop in front of it...). He also says that the train is going to come and pick him up, since he should have been on it 75 years ago. Ompah (their word, not mine...) marks off the location of the old tracks (cute shot of him spray painting his way across the yard and over the satellite dish) to see what parts of the house are going to be destroyed. Ompah is trying to take the valuables out of that part of the house ("Make the insurance claim easier") when the Black Psychiatrist fills him full of Demerol. Night, night, Ompah. SEB goes into hysterics, female cardboard says "You know we wouldn't do anything to hurt your Ompah, don't you?" SEB goes to sleep, ear firmly pressed to the rails of his model train. Lights in the window, a far off whistle. SEB wakes up, looks out window, special effect right out of Close encounters, SEB starts yelling things like "It's coming!" and other intelligent comments. Father and Mother spend a couple of minutes bitching about nightmares and discussing who will go sooth their child. SEB dashes downstairs to wake Ompah (demerol and all). Parents come down just in time for a reaction shot, a couple of quick Ohmygods and to watch the train come in through the kitchen wall. Mother attempts to go into hysterics, but looks like a spastic chicken. Father stares. Out comes the Conductor, the Engineer, and the Brakeman. Engineer peers into refrigerator, pulls out a six pack, which he shakes and says "don't know what it is, but it sounds wet. We'll check it out on the road" (that is a cheap shot...). Brakeman finds the Mr. Coffee machine and refills his thermos with a "thanks, Mr. Coffee!" (that's another cheap shot). Conductor does an "all aboard!" and Ompah says "My ticket might not be good anymore, I bought it 75 years ago." The conductor assures him that it is, and that they've been waiting for him to join them for a long time. SEB wants to go with him ("Who'll tell me stories from now on?") but the Wise Grandfather tells him "Remember all the stories I told you? As long as you remember them, I'll still be telling them to you." Wise Grandfather tells them that he'll see them in a hundred years, apologizes to Father and Mother for not staying longer, gets on train, and train pulls out of the kitchen. Mother, no longer hysterical or spastic, says "Who's our insurance man?" Obligatory cheap shot of sparking refrigerator. Final shot of train pulling off into the heavens. End story. Fortunately. end plot summary While watching this, all I could think of was "ET meets twilight zone" and I find that both lose. Spielberg said that they were going to emphasize fantasy because the cost of special effects in a SF anthology was exorbitant. I can't disagree with that, but they took a story with a lot of possibilities (a variant of "The Hell Bound Train" and gutted it. There was no attempt at character development, after five minutes you knew what the ending was going to be. They could have played it for laughs or tried to do a serious traditional "Twilight Zone" style episode. Instead they took a semi serious track and then tossed in a bunch of cheap reaction shots. The end result is a mess with no impact, no real direction, and a number of attempted one liners that fail because they seem out of place. I think the script was a little weak, but I don't think this is the fault of the writer (I didn't catch their name, unfortunately). As director, Spielberg could have taken this script in either direction and done it successfully. By his unwillingness to add a direction to the story and trying to do both, he fails. I now see why copies of the show weren't made available in advance. There is a lot riding on Amazing and the return of the anthology, and if this is the episode they used to start off the seriese, I don't hold out a lot of hope for future episodes. Perhaps Spielberg just couldn't handle the 30 minute format, or perhaps they haven't really figured out what they want to do with it. I hope it gets better. I don't think it can get much worse. Fortunately, a local PBS station has started playing "Outer Limits" at 11PM on Sundays, so the evening isn't a complete waste. I just wish Spielberg had done a better job of recreating the classic anthology format. All he did in the opening episode of "Amazing Stories" was mock it. Chuq Von Rospach nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid}!nsc!chuqui ------------------------------ From: dartvax!waltervj@topaz.rutgers.edu (walter jeffries) Subject: Re: Matter transmission Date: 28 Sep 85 02:43:34 GMT hmmm... about the replacement of the atoms of our body... According to a reliable source, my doctor, it takes about seven years for our body to completely replace all of its components and even then not *everything* get's replaced as some toxins can accumulate (radioactive items...). By the way, it is the bones which take the longest to replace all of their atoms. Other parts are preplaced MUCH more frequently. Walter. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Oct 85 0940-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #389 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 2 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 389 Today's Topics: Books - Anvil & Asiomv & Bear & Budrys & Leguin & Leiber & Zelazny (3 msgs), Films - Back to the Future, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Star Wars & Price Increase & Matter Transmission ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hp-pcd!gvg@topaz.rutgers.edu (gvg) Subject: Re: Re: Boring races Date: 29 Sep 85 17:42:00 GMT > I'll have to appeal to the net for the title and author of >this one. I read a book some years ago about invaders who conquer >Earth and then discover, to their considerable dismay, that they >have conquered a race that is more intelligent. > One of the major aliens is (as best I recall) General Horsip. PANDORA'S PLANET by Christopher Anvil. Based on a short novel that was printed in ANALOG in about 1959 or 1960. There was actually a whole series of stories about this race of orderly (but rather unimaginative) aliens and (what ends up being) their military collaboration with us. GV Goebel ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.rutgers.edu (john) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS digest entry Date: 29 Sep 85 17:49:00 GMT >And what about *The End of Eternity* which acts as a prelude (from >the far future) for the entire series? > >Michael McNeil End of Eternity starts in the far future but ends in the past just 20 years before Joseph Schwartz is sent to the future in "Pebble in the Sky". Its funny how he is sent to exactly the right place and time to prevent the destruction of the human race. You might think that someone was viewing alternate realities and decided to implement a change for the better. Perhaps in Foundation and Earth we will discover that the "Doll" that he stepped over was actually a time machine from Noyes and Andrew. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ From: calmasd!gail@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan) Subject: Re: Brin, Sagan, etc. Date: 27 Sep 85 18:29:37 GMT jimb@ISM780B.UUCP writes: >I happen to agree with you about Greg Bear; he paints nice pictures >that have a high degree of technical verisimilitude. (I've talked >to the man and he has a manic sense of research and does *not* have >a science degree or job. As far as I know, he's a full time >fiction writer, which is a truly endangered species.) But as nice >(and moving!) as the pictures are, they haven't (yet) approached >the breathtaking grandness of Brin or Wolfe. If you haven't read them yet, read _Eon_ (just out in hardback), or _Blood Music_ (also just out in hardback), or _The Infinity Concerto_ (paperback, 1984), all by Greg Bear. Dave Brin's books are lots of fun, I enjoyed them tremendously, but Greg's books consistently have more depth, and are still entertaining. _Eon_ in particular really blew me away. _The Infinity Concerto_ deserves a second reading. I suppose I should mention that these folks are both good friends... Gail Bayley Hanrahan Calma Company, San Diego {ihnp4,decvax,ucbvax}!sdcsvax!calmasd!gail ------------------------------ From: teklds!davidl@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Levine) Subject: Re: Who are you? Date: 30 Sep 85 18:04:56 GMT klr@hadron.UUCP (Kurt L. Reisler) writes about a story in which a revolutionary was tortured by being repeatedly killed, then restored as a clone. This puts me in mind of "Rogue Moon" by Algis Budrys (more famous these days as a reviewer than as a writer). I think that "Rogue Moon" is relevant to the topic, but because it is relatively obscure and hard to find, I'll post here some of its important concepts (hopefully, not enough to make this article a spoiler). In this book, an alien base is discovered on the Moon at about the same time that matter transmission is becoming feasible. The alien base kills anyone who walks into it if they violate certain obscure and incomprehensible rules. For example, it's certain death to write the word "yes" with either hand, but you can write "no". Nobody has been able to survive for more than a few minutes inside. As it happens, the matter-transmission process works by making a copy of the thing being transmitted. If a person is transmitted, the thought processes of the original and duplicate are identical for the first ~30 minutes, allowing instantaneous telepathy (even over interplanetary distances) between the two for this initial period. After that, the two start becoming different enough that telepathy is impossible. Naturally, someone tries sending a copy of an intrepid adventurer into the deadly base. Unfortunately, being in telepathic contact with the duplicate when he dies drives the adventurer insane. Enter the protagonist of the story, a professional death-defier. This man (whose name I forget) is a race-car driver, high-diver, stunt man, and general lunatic who doesn't mind the thought of death. He is brought into the project because the head of the project thinks (correctly) that he might be able to stand being in telepathic contact with a copy while the copy dies. The bulk of the book details his relationship with the head of the project as he attempts to penetrate the alien artifact, "dying" several times a day. This is one book in which the main character dies in chapter 2, and dies several hundred times more in the course of the story. The real subject of the story is how a man deals with death, brought into focus by that death being his own. I found it fascinating, although it might not be for you (even if you can find a copy). Like much of Budrys' fiction, "Rogue Moon" is darkly introspective and gripping on a psychological level, dealing with the concept of identity. Three stars (out of five). David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP] (teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA/CSNET] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 85 13:03 PDT From: DDYER@SCRC-RIVERSIDE.ARPA Subject: LeGuin For you other lower-left coasters out there (that's Souther California); Ursula K. LeGuin will be interviewed next Friday, Oct. 4, at 10PM on "Hour 25", the science fiction program on KPFK, 90.7 FM. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 85 9:11:33 EDT From: Daniel Dern Subject: In Defense Of Leiber "Is Leiber a superficial writer?" Gee, I've enjoyed reading Leiber's work so much, over so many years, the question would never even occur to me. Novels like (off the top of my head): THE WANDERER -- one of the classic "big object hits earth" stories, with unexpected (but typical for Leiber) whimsy THE SILVER EGGHEADS A SPECTER IS HAUNTING TEXAS and a (too long to) list of stories unforgettable in both title and content [ Take it away, jayembee ], including Faf & the G Mouser. I haven't been as into Leiber's more recent long works, but his old stuff has lost none of its delight and charm. ------------------------------ From: randvax!jim@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jim Gillogly) Subject: Re: Trumps of Doom speculation (the spoiler continued) Date: 25 Sep 85 18:26:37 GMT >> I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is in >> fact the gemstone of a ring. Also Corwin is not dead, but is >> masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much. > Sounds right to me; there is certainly a precedent in > Ganelon/Oberon... That one bothered me a lot: I think Zelazny didn't know Ganelon was Oberon until a couple of books later. There was too much that didn't fit in Guns of Avalon. I wish Zelazny would plot the whole series before writing the first book ... it seems to have worked well for Tolkien, Eddings (Belgariad), Wolfe (New Sun), and Cook (Black Company). Did anybody else notice that the blue crystal cavern is a parallel with the Arthurian legend? That other Merlin was imprisoned in a crystal cave by Nimue, a sorceress he was teaching, according to one version. Jim Gillogly {decvax, vortex}!randvax!jim jim@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258) Subject: Re: Zelazny's Trumps_of_Doom Date: 26 Sep 85 00:51:47 GMT > The burning question, where in Shadow is Corwin? It would seem that Corwin has created his own "multiverse" of Shadows extending from Amber. The interesting question that arises is how Chaos will be linked to that other set of shadows and will the Chaos power of "fetching" things work in there too? Also, I would suspect that only Corwin can walk his set of Shadows for now. He is the only one who has walked his Pattern and now is in the same position as Dworkin. Considering the fact that Dworkin was insane. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Zelany's Trumps_of_Doom Date: 27 Sep 85 16:35:13 GMT > The burning question, where in Shadow is Corwin? At > several times in the book it is mentioned that he's now crazy, > also other things. I feel that he's crazy due to Amber blood > having been spilled on the pattern that he created. I also think > that Luke would be responsible for this act and probably grapped > Corwin and then found out about Avalon's pink powder through > Corwin. My impression is that the pattern he created could only be damaged by his own blood, or that of his descendants. Presumably Merlin didn't do it. I'm not certain of my interpretation, however. SKZB ------------------------------ From: cae780!gordon@topaz.rutgers.edu (Brian Gordon) Subject: Re: The town in Back to the Future Date: 26 Sep 85 20:47:03 GMT >From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >I just watched Gremlins which was free with Teen Wolf, and guess >what I recognized? The town was the same as Back to the Future, >but with some signs changed. They never gave a really good view of >the clock tower, but the movie theatre he crashed into on his way >back was the same one where Snow White was enjoyed by the little >monsters until they "blowed up, sir". > >Just another proof it was a back lot. I could have sworn that, just a couple of months ago, I "revealed" -- in this very newsgroup -- that the current tour of Universal Studios (like, in Hollywood) goes through that very "town square", and that it is specifically mentioned as such by the tour guide. FROM: Brian G. Gordon, CAE Systems Division of Tektronix, Inc. UUCP: tektronix!teklds!cae780!gordon {ihnp4, decvax!decwrl}!amdcad!cae780!gordon {nsc, hplabs, resonex, qubix, leadsv}!cae780!gordon USNAIL: 5302 Betsy Ross Drive, Santa Clara, CA 95054 ------------------------------ From: lear@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (eliot lear) Subject: ST Back in New York!!! Date: 1 Oct 85 04:54:42 GMT Finally, Star Trek is back on WPIX New York! Now maybe the TREK trivia will really hit the net!! [lear@topaz.rutgers.edu] [{allegra,seismo}!topaz!lear] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 85 09:46 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Light-saber construction... some questions Mark Rosenstein suggests making a lightsaber with a high-energy laser, a mirror, and some Sinclair molecule chain. An excellent theoretical model, but I have some slight doubt that it's technically feasible (even given Known Space-level engineering). Q1: Can a pulley/monofilament arrangement possibly be precise enough to extend the mirror exactly to an integer multiple of the laser's wavelength? Q2: How rugged (and thus heavy) would the mirror have to be in order to reflect a laser beam capable of cutting through a human arm in one cut (remember, flesh is mostly water & notoriously difficult to cut cleanly with a laser). Are there any theoretical limits of the efficiency-of-reflection of a first-surface mirror that would come into play here? Q3: How can the saber maintain full power in the act of cutting through something, given that the object being cut would probably block a portion of the beam? It seems to me as if the laser generator in the handgrip would have to be capable of sustaining full-power emission with its internal mirrors and exciters, as it would be unable to depend on reinforcement from the end mirror. Q4: Could the monfilament handle the high temperatures probably present in the blade-beam path (ionization, etc.)? Q5: Would two lightsaber blades of this variety exhibit the behavior that has been demonstrated (rigidity similar to that of a matter- based blade; sparks when two blades hit; etc.). Q6: How much laser back-glare would be present during a cutting operation? High-energy lasers of the sort postulated here are quite capable of blinding a bystander simply by their reflection off of a semi-reflective surface; I'd be afraid to use one without frequency-selective goggles. Any ideas, folks? ------------------------------ Date: 30 Sep 85 16:50:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA I sort of thought that Obi-wan Kenobi was OB1, the first clone of someone w/ the initials O.B. "Original Body" might be a good suggestion too....but that would imply that the person was developed from scratch, not cloned.... Richard Hartman ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: SF price increase (avoidinance thereof) Date: 27 Sep 85 17:23:18 GMT > and by getting stuff from the paperback-exchange rack here at > work. (Every workplace ought to have one of those latter -- even > if your organization's library isn't interested, or you work at a > place with no library, you can start one yourself. Just bring in a > dozen books and stack them somewhere with a sign saying "Take some > -- leave some" or the like. Or start a science fiction club at work and ask for donations to a library that people can borrow from. Works great here! (The librarian is rapidly being squeezed out of his office by the books, but that's another story.) Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc. Date: 27 Sep 85 23:13:55 GMT The matter transmission might destroy a soul if we had one. What are the characteristics of the soul, if one exists? Consider what matter transmission could do for surgery: load someone into memory and just edit them, removing cancers and such. Maybe even take out the brain of a youthful backup and substitute the one of the aging current one, and PRESTO! instant youth. Is someone legally dead when they only exist on magnetic tape or whatever we use for storing them? Suppose there's a glitch in the tape when you're restored, heavens forbid.... Think of what could be possible for transporation: assuming the ability to digitise someone and recreate them later, it might be able to post a copy of yourself to net.net-people and be created for a conversation. Or famines and droughts: take the digitisation of several acre-feet of water and just supply the energy from a nuclear power plant and create water or food! There's a lot more than souls in danger here- transporation, factories, and much more would be made completely obscelescent... Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 2 Oct 85 0959-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #390 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 2 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 390 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Critics (5 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: critics, Shakespeare, art and all that Date: 27 Sep 85 13:25:04 GMT showard@udenva.UUCP (showard) writes: > Actually, most people who read Shakespeare in the 20th Century >do it for one of two reasons: > 1.) They have been taught (usually by English professors) that >Shakespeare is, by definition, the greatest writer ever. ... > 2.) They want to show that they are "cultured"--even though they >don't really enjoy it they feel they ought to, ... My introduction to Shakespeare occurred as a child in the 1950s through several productions on TV. I remember in particular Midsummer Night's Dream, Hamlet, Macbeth, King Lear, and a production of The Tempest. I found the stories fascinating at the time, although some of the dialogue was too strange to my young ear and of course a lot of the word play escaped me. The bottom line is that my siblings and I sat through entire productions of Shakespeare's plays without having our attentions lag. 1. No "English professor" told this 9-year-old boy that W. S. is the greatest writer of all time. I grew up in a working-class family and we watched Shakespeare because we WANTED to: i.e., we related to the story lines in some way. 2. 9-year-old boys do NOT worry about appearing cultured. Unless, of course, they're yuppie puppies. 3. I find it hard to believe that other people haven't developed a taste for W. S. in exactly this manner. Many thousands of children across the country watched the same productions I did. Moral: generalizations are always dangerous, and reverse snobbery ain't all that different from plain old snobbery. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 85 14:19 EDT From: Boebert@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Good Critics Rather than get bogged down in an abstract definition of good vs. bad criticism, I would just like to note that Ian Watt's _Conrad in the 19th Century_ is, to my mind, an exemplar of informed, sensible commentary on an author's work. I think that people on both sides of the debate on criticism could benefit by reading it; and if it gets you to read Conrad, so much the better. ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: critics Date: 23 Sep 85 16:11:08 GMT > But we don't READ Shak. because he's the same spinner of > rollicking hilarious yarns TO US that he was to his less educated > contemporaries. That was exactly the point I made when I said > that the classics may have been great fun when they were > contemporary, but that as their language and their references > become increasingly obscure to us, we read them with more > difficulty and for different reasons. For that matter, we still > read the sonnets of Shakespeare, and I don't believe they're > susceptible of being read on your "onion" model; they don't work > as easy doggerel and also as compact, dazzlingly inventive, > intricate constructions of nested metaphors that economically > illuminate the depths of human emotion. This is important enough to the point of the discussion that I think it worth hitting on. My point is exactly that--Shakespeare IS fun, the very first time. If fifteen-year-old Stevie hadn't seen a production of Midsummer Night's Dream that left him in stitches, then a production of Macbeth that left him depressed but triumphant, he would never have taken the time to look for the rest of what is there. I won't comment on the sonnets; I know even less about poetry than I do about fiction. I should admit here, though, that whoever it was who claimed to have really enjoyed ULYSSES on the first reading very neatly cut the rug out from under most of my arguments. Good going, whoever that was. I been nailed. > Why should a novel or a play be required to provide instant > gratification in some way, then to draw the reader into more > profound levels of discourse? This has never been required of > poetry, or at least not since poetry moved away from the song form > in the Middle Ages. And it's still not required of those > "classics" which almost all of us read, and read in translation. It is exactly what IS required, or at least present, in those few of the classics that "almost all of us read." As I say, I know little of poetry, but are you quite sure of what you say here? > We can allow Steve Brust to reserve the use of the term "great > literature," in his private lexicon, for description of art that > doubles as entertainment and hence gives pleasure to more people > than art that doesn't. Well, this point (first brought up, I believe, by Mr. Ingogly) is certainly hitting me where I live. I hate it when people promiscuously redefine words to make their own points, so I don't enjoy being accused of doing it. Especially when, looking back over my own contributions, it seems I really have. I will now procede to back down and, I hope, build up to my point again. Writer's who give me the impression of consciously and deliberately writing over the heads of much of their audience annoy me. In attempting to find the reason for this annoyance, and so determine if it is my problem, their problem, both, or neither, I have come to certain conclusions. This question actually matters to me on a very practical level. I need to know, for myself, "what makes good writing." The conclusions I have come to are, breifly summarized, good (fiction) writing is that which exposes and lays bare areas of life that are normally hidden, and does it in using language that can be understood. You mention the classics: can you name one art form (painting, music, etc) in which those works which are now regarded as the classics were not, at the time, entertainment for the masses? Doesn't this indicate something? > But all this juggling of subjective judgments -- "Well, *I* had > fun with Hamlet" ... "I found Ulysses hilarious!" ... "Melville is > great fun!" ... "This work FAILS as literature, because it wasn't > fun [for me]." ... is getting us nowhere. > > Judith Abrahms {ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith Oh, I don't know. I'm enjoying it. I'm also learning something. SKZB ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: Excerpts from Harper's article on Science Fiction Date: 29 Sep 85 17:49:11 GMT EXCERPTS: "The Temple Of Boredom: Science Fiction, No Future" by Luc Sante (1) HARPER'S MAGAZINE, OCTOBER 1985 (2) (deleted) without permission (substantially edited). ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Good First SF stories Date: 23 Sep 85 16:15:33 GMT > I had an English teacher who was felt that that no great English > literature had been written since the time of Milton. She didn't > mean that nothing worth reading had been written, just nothing > exceptionally good. Her opinion of science fiction was extremely > low. > -Castor Fu > ihnp4!lanl!dspo!fu Interesting. I know someone who has taught English. She has an MA, with a Shakespeare specialty. She also feels that no great literature has been written since, approximately, Milton. She feels the exceptions are mostly found in Science Fiction, Mysteries, and children's books. SKZB ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Oct 85 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #391 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 4 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 391 Today's Topics: Books - Bischoff & Helprin & Varley, Magazines - Some Reveiws, Television - New TV Shows (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Book Prices (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: STAR HOUNDS book 1: THE INFINITE BATTLE by David Bischoff Date: 30 Sep 85 15:18:42 GMT The jacket reads: "Laura Shemzak. Irreverent, rebellious, beautiful. A woman with an impossible mission: to rescue her beloved brother, the most brilliant physicist of the Empire, from the awesome aliens, the Jaxdron. To succeed, Laura must gain control of the top-secret Mark XT "blip-ship". And to do that, she is forced into an uneasy alliance with the notorious space pirate, the bitter, cynical, Captain Tars Northern. And that's when Laura's adventure really begins..." Well, if I hadn't read some books by Bischoff already (DAY OF THE DRAGONSTAR and NIGHT OF THE DRAGONSTAR with Monteleone, both very very good, and STAR FALL all by himself), I wouldn't have purchased this one after reading the jacket description. Laura is an intelligence agent for the Earth-based Empire, though she isn't all that keen on Empire politics. Her brother is a research physicist. The society in which they both grew up frowns on personal relationships (husband and wife, brother and sister, etc.), so their knowledge of each other and their ties are unusual. The physics of the period is much advanced, and Laura's brother is on the forefront of research; at least the Jaxdron know this. Further, Laura has been engineered with a number of implants in order to fully interface with her blip-ship and, of course, to more easily carry out her intelligence operations. The book contains lots of futuristic "slang", which is not out of place, but it takes some getting used to. Captain Northern and his crew are somewhat hard to fathom, but I expect to learn more in the next book of the series. It's obvious that Northern and Laura will eventually admit their attraction to each other, but in this book they primarily joust. I enjoyed the book, but not as much as the previously-mentioned ones. The characters don't have much depth, but that criticism too should fade after another book appears. The story contains lots of interesting ideas, and I like the scenario. I still haven't figured out what Northern and his crew plan to do, and there's obviously lots more to come. I rate this book as 2.5 stars (good). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 85 01:51:08 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Comparing books to "Winter's Tale" ... Someone recently compared a book to Helprin's "Winter's Tale" saying that if you liked the Helprin book you would like the other (I think it was "Little, Big"). I hope that the book was better than the Helprin book. Comparing something to Helprin's book is a definite putdown as far as I am concerned. "Winter's Tale" was the WORST book I read in all of 1984; it was a book clearly written for pseudo-intellectuals. The plot was weak with far too much dependence on deus ex machina and rabbits in hats, the characterization was absurd (none of the characters --except maybe the newspaper publisher and the horse-- made the slightest bit of sense in any way, shape, or form), and the prose was (to be polite) overly verbose. I read the entire book waiting for something (ANYTHING) evenly vaguely rational to happen. The only thing positive I can say for the book is that it wasn't predictable. It was nonetheless DULL!! Steve Z. ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley; computer-related names Date: 1 Oct 85 17:49:07 GMT carl@proper.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: > The characters in there all had computer-related names in common. > You all must know what "foo" is as in "Lisa Foo" and "foobar". > Furthermore, we have a guy called Hal- and you all must remember > 2001: A Space Odyssey. And Kludge is explained, and of course we > have an Osborne in there. It's quite intentional, I think... > Carl Greenberg Geez, do I feel dense. Detective Osborne: If you've never heard of Adam Osborne or Osborne Computers, none of this is going to mean a lot to you! Lisa Foo: Steve Jobs' mostly-ex-girlfriend had a baby daughter named Lisa. Jobs said the child wasn't his; the courts disagreed. Roughly a year later, Apple Computer announced the Lisa (forerunner of the Macintosh). "Foo", as in "foobar" or "fubar", is a common noise word among hackers. Victor Apfel: There was a computer called the Victor 9000 (I think it was called the Sirius 1 or some such in Britain and Europe.) As for "Apfel" - that isn't German for "Apple", is it? Hal Lanier: 2001's HAL 9000, and Lanier word processors. Charles Kludge: "Kludge" is explained. I can't make any plays on either "Charles" or "Patrick William Gavin". None of the minor characters seem to have computer-derived names. ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 29 Sep 85 19:52:00 GMT >I am interested in subscribing to an sf&f magazine. I know nothing >about any of them, and could use some recommendations. In >particular, how do they differ in content, style, frequency, >quality and price? ANALOG $19.50 per year/$2.00 single issue price/13 issues per year (discounts for subscriptions can probably be found and their renewal rates aren't bad/) Mostly hard science fiction, usually traditional in form. Excellent science articles. The editor is Stan Schmidt, who publishes intelligently written, sometimes provoking editorials. Contains SF events calendar. ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE Same price/frequency/publisher as ANALOG. Has a broader, more literary range of stories than ANALOG. On the latter point, they've received several letters complaining that some of the stories "aren't science fiction." Maybe; depends on your definition. Gardner Dozois has just recently taken over as editor from Shawna McCarthy and his flavor/tastes won't start becoming evident until the January to March issues. Includes sometimes pompous, sometimes fascinating (sometimes both) editorials by Asimov. Book reviews by Norman Spinrad (no relation to Evelyn C. Leeper). FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION $17.50 per year/$1.75 single issue/12 issues per year. The grand old flagship of the field now (okay, nobody flame me that ANALOG is son-of-ASTOUNDING), F&SF is showing its age in some ways, not that I wouldn't donate a couple of minor body parts like eye teeth to get published there. Publishes more fantasy than ASIMOV'S, including contemporary soft horror pieces. Their hard sf is a little erratic, but in general it's probably the best magazine for consisently good writing style. Book reviews by Harlan Ellison (no known relaton to Mark Leeper), Science columns by Asimov which are occasionally interesting, book reviews by A.J. Budrys that are probably the best of all the big mags. The preceding are probably the big three; following are three more. AMAZING I don't know the current price, somewhere around $2.00/issue. Published six times per year by TSR, the same people who made. D&D an institution. Frankly, I don't like this one; maybe someone on the net will volunteer to its defense. AMAZING seems to be going for the teen market that's now more less neglected by the big three, but in general it stoops too low. It has had stories I've enjoyed by William F. Wu and Somtow Suchartikul, but overall I'm not impressed. The book reviews are inferior and the editorial responses to letters seem smug and self-serving. FANTASY BOOK $12.00 per year/$3.95 per issue/published quarterly. I wouldn't get this if I was going to get only *one* magazine, but if you like fantasy, it might be worth your while. A relatively new magazine, it's actually been around almost five years and seems like it might make it. Good mix of all kinds of fantasy. This is also a good market for writers who have got decent stories that haven't sold to ASIMOV's or F&SF. LAST WAVE Price unknown, theoretically published quarterly, actually published when the editor feels he has enough stories to make an issue. Well, I don't like this one, but I admire the editor's guts. The magazine is billed as "the last best hope of speculative fiction." Very new wave -- which in general I don't care for -- but for which there isn't much of a market for in the American magazine market. If you like New Wave SF, then buy this magazine. If you can't find it (it's listed in Fiction Writer's Market, or your specialty SF bookstore can get it for you), then message me. Keep the SF market open to diversity. The editor is Scot Edelman, Somewhere In New York. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ Date: Tue 1 Oct 85 10:54:53-PDT From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: NOT SF (and spoiler too!) How's that for a reason to hit the "n" ? I'd like to preface this by saying "I guess I'm what you'd call an art snob". I read "important" authors, and spend a ridiculous amount of my free time both writing "serious" fiction, and collecting rejection slips. Furthermore, to me a television is something used only when one has a video tape to screen. Having said that, I'd like to plug the new Hitchcock series. I was blown away by how good it was. Just think about the implications of the ending. The woman (who we all think is getting better rapidly) shows herself to be totally insane, the man's life is basically over; even if he doesn't turn himself in, he will probably lose his own mind soon due to guilt. He has quite randomly murdered someone's husband/father/brother, the real culprit will never be caught (because the wife is bonkers).......I could go on for volumes. And how is all this shown?? Clearly and instantly by two words. The woman merely points at the next man she sees and says "That's him". Great! On another level, the fact that Hitchcock himself presents each story years after his death is something I'm certain he would have thought of. If the quality stays anywhere near this high (please, please, please) you'll find me glued to the screen for every episode. Sorry, I know of no net.horror Bob PS As long as I'm abusing your net, twilight zone was ok (compared to other tv shows, I guess). I'll assume Amazing Stories was a joke. How did a non-tv watcher see all that? I "promised" I'd video tape them for a friend. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 85 12:28 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Short and to the point... Twilight Zone was good, with Harlan's story being the better of the two. The second was a bit too old hat but the tone of the old TZ was caught in both. The Hitchcock story and the Amazing Story were both predictable. The only thing I liked about Ghost Train were the engineers raiding the fridge. Maybe next time. Jon ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: semi-hot flash Date: 30 Sep 85 18:24:22 GMT > From: Douglas M. Olson > Silly thing cost 4.95. Thanks, Ace. But how could I pass it up! I haven't yet said anything about the recent comments on paperback prices, but as this one refers to ACE, and I do have information on this. It is known (at least by Susan Allison, who is in charge of the Science Fiction for Berkley and Ace) that there is a relationship between cost of a book and number of sales. As I have said before, Science Fiction fandom means approximately nothing in terms of sales of SF books. Ace wants to make as much money as possible. They are aware that there is a point where raising the price (and thus diminishing sales) is a big loose, but don't know where this point comes. Their policy is, approximately, to charge as little as possible to ensure that they make money. If the book makes money, the author becomes popular among the sales people and they print more of his next book, etc. It seems I have made this more confusing and less informative than I intended to. Sorry. Perhaps I shouldn't go into how it can be to an author's advantage to have a small print run. Okay, never mind. What I do want to say is that Ace likes to keep the price low for their own advantage. There are four exceptions. That is, there are exactly four authors whose books can be priced at just about anything within reason without having a noticeable effect on sales. Is there anyone who can name all four? I got three, but not the fourth. SKZB ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 85 01:20:53 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Comments about the "Price of books" ... A couple of comments on the price of books... First let us be fair to the publishers, place some of the blame on the writers where it belongs. In the past year, Heinlein signed for a greater then $1,000,000 advance (it may wind up as high as $2M depending on European rights) and Silverberg signed a two book package for more than $600,00 (European advance might bring it as high as $1,000,000). A significant chunk of both of those figures has to come from the paperback publishers because, hardcover books just don't sell all that many copies! It seems fair to assume that everyone of all of our favorite authors is angling to get more in advances from the publishers. In fact, the SFWA has a recommended contract to try to help get writers as much money as possible. Add to this the fact that almost every job in the chain between you and writer is unionized, and suddenly, even the publisher that doesn't want to raise prices is in a bind. (Since most of the major publishing companies are owned by other publishers or by holding conmpanies, you can add in the professional money managers too, they're probably the worst of the greedy.) Second comment, don't count on the retailers too much. What you're most likely to get from them if you stop buying is requests to the publishers for more Star Trek books (after all those ALWAYS sell) and less of that "other stuff" since sales of it seems to be dropping off. Third (and last) comment, at Constellation I went to a panel that George R. R. Martin was on. At this panel, he asserted that the major bookstore chains were trying to pressure the publishers to standardize the size of books in the SF lines in the same way that the romance lines have been standardized. They of course wanted this done so that all SF would be one price and size, so it would be easier to display and sell. If you rely on them to pressure the publishers, you may well simply add fuel to this argument for them. It is almost needless to point out that if they win on this issue, SF will become the same kind of mindless pap we have all been saying it isn't. We'll be right back to the old "Doc Savage" standardized story line type of book (hero has visitor with case, optionally visitor gets captured, hero gets captured investigating visitor's story -optionally visitor gets captured-, hero's assistants rush off to help and get captured, hero gets free, hero rescues everyone, everyone gets captured again, everyone gets away, villian's plan is foiled, optionally villian dies -- or some such, I don't remember where I read it, but this is more or less what Lester Dent's standard story for Doc Savage was). Also this will preclude all chances of a new "Snow Queen", "Dahlgren", or "Dune" being written as they are all much too long to fit the standard price/size. Steve Z> ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Oct 85 1013-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #392 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 5 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 392 Today's Topics: Books - Calvino & Shiras, Magazines - Analog on Microfiche, Television - New shows, Miscellaneous - Nepotism (2 msgs) & SF-LOVERS & Matter Transmission (4 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Oct 85 18:44 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Italo Calvino Someone stated that they had heard a rumor that Italo Calvino had died. This is apparently true, as I recently (= within the last month) read his obit in the Boston Glob, along with a nice appreciation by someone or other. I particularly enjoyed his _If on a winters night a traveler_, which is a sort of meta-novel if you know what I mean and if you don't go read the book and find out. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 85 10:04:31 PDT (Tuesday) Subject: Re: Boring races From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA The book "Children of the Atom" by Wilmar H. Shiras is one of my favorites. Recently a reference was made by a friend to some other stories she wrote the first part of the 1970's. Supposedly about four stories appeared in "New Worlds of Fantasy" and "Fantastic" Has anyone read them? Are they more stories within the "In Hiding" universe? Henry III ------------------------------ Date: Wed 2 Oct 85 09:51:31-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: Analog on MicroFiche Cc: Cate3.EIS@XEROX.ARPA They had a set and reader at Aussiecon; they looked \really/ good. In addition to the text, the color covers were included. They also happen to be compatible with the reader I have on my desk at the office (although as I recall, their reader was a lot less expensive than the ones the Army bought for our office...don't remember their price, any more, though). -Rich ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!broehl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Bernie Roehl) Subject: Amazing Stories, Hitchcock Presents Date: 30 Sep 85 21:27:31 GMT Sorry, Chuq, I couldn't disagree more. (Well, I could, as I'll point out in a sec). The first episode of "Amazing Stories" was fun. The characters may have lacked depth, but they were certainly well-defined. The story flowed along smoothly, and I even admit to feeling a little twinge of sadness as Old Pa (where did this "Ompah" stuff come from? Check TV Guide, if nothing else) boarded the train at the end. Now, here's where I *could* disagree more: You're right, the ending was predictable from square one. So? *Most* Spielberg stories are like that. Doesn't bother me much... this isn't Zone, after all. You're right, the characters were all cardboard cutouts; see above paragraph. You're right, Spielberg probably does have trouble handling a half-hour format; it's something he's going to have to learn though, since A.S. will be with us for a while. All in all, I thought Amazing Stories was *much* better than the new Zone. (even the opening credits!) Best of all, though, was the first episode of Alfred Hitchcock Presents. VERY nice work all around. Real characters, real suspense, tastefully handled violence, and an ending that I honestly did not see until the last second. Good performances, good direction, good cinematography (the first 30 seconds had me hooked; the image of the horse being captured and branded intercut with the woman running/dancing on the beach and then facing shock therapy was riveting). A definite winner. (The intro by Hitchcock himself was clever; they colorized everything *but* the set he was watching, so a living color Hitch was watching himself on a black and white set. Nice touch). I predict that Amazing Stories back to back with Hitchcock will be a ratings winner, and that (sadly) the new Twilight Zone will vanish into the night. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 85 22:11 PDT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: more nepotism I'm glad to see further discussion of "family affairs" in science fiction, but some of the responses exemplify a common problem in sf-lovers -- misinformation, which is then discussed as fact. Every issue there are at least half a dozen postings that are plain wrong. Some as inconsequential as remembering the wrong author for a work, some as culpably negligent as announcing the death of Jimmy Doohan. Please -- if you're posting from work and can't remember an author, check it at home first. If you're correcting someone else's errors, be damned sure you have the true story. And if you're reading an issue, don't believe anything until you've been able to confirm it for yourself, or at least unless the source is reliable. Lisa Wahl's posting about the Star Trek movie is probably accurate. Lisa has been active in trek fandom and Welcommittee for ten years that I know of. Anything I post is probably accurate. I've been writing sf professionally for nine years, so my sources are pretty good. Daniel Dern also went to Clarion, and is also a writer. I'm not sure who else is on-net. (This would be a better-organized flame if I had had more sleep; my daughter -- Joanna Ruth -- is a week old today. If I have to defend it, I'll be more articulate.) Other gripe -- please run postings through a spelling-checker. Anyway, SF FAMILIES: Kuttner! Yes, that's the name I forgot. Indeed, he was married to C. L. Moore. They mostly wrote separately but did write a few pieces together. Jack Haldeman is Joe Haldeman's brother, not his son. Paul Zimmer is Marion Zimmer Bradley's brother, not her son. Samuel R. "Chip" Delany's wife, Marilyn Hacker, is an award-winning poet. Terry Carr, exceptional editor and occasional writer, has co-edited anthologies with his wife Carol. I can't remember her husbands (one was James Blish?), but Judith Merril, an sf writer and anthologist, has had two sf writer husbands. More when I think of them. Now I have a new question: what sf notables have come from your alma mater? Where have clumps come from? I will start this with my own undergrad school, Stony Brook, which has, at last report, spawned Victoria Schochet, a senior sf editor (I can't remember where she's working just now. There's too much musical chairs), Jim Frenkel, publisher of Bluejay Books (and married to Joan Vinge), Spider Robinson, me, and Pat Benatar. Time to feed the kid. Lubkin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 85 23:36:31 PDT From: lah@ucbmiro.Berkeley.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: MZB's "son" Actually, that's her brother, Paul Edwin. His books are not set in any version of the Darkover universe, but in a universe that he created independently. That some of the names are the same (ie, Hastur, etc.) is because both drew from _The King in Yellow_. That red hair is special in both books is because both have red hair (altho Paul's is redder). And besides, as every modern witch knows, only red-haired people make effective magi (;->)... Read MZB's anthology, _Greyhaven_, for more family info, and also to see works by her niece. There are works there also by Diana L. Paxson, and her son. How come no one mentioned in the "husband-wife" teams, Poul and Karen Anderson? A personal note: it's harder than you think to write with your spouse. But soon... Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: Wed 2 Oct 85 10:03:58-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: Re: Age of SF-Lovers I was going to check the SFL archives on RUTGERS,but apparently the old ones are off-line now; at any rate I couldn't find ARCHIVE.V1. I can always go back and check hardcopy, though...I was one of the original readers, and for a long time (until a couple of years ago, when my office moved and I lost my bookshelves) I printed off each day's issue and put it in a 3-ring binder for some non-network people at my office to read. When I lost my storage space, I donated the whole collection (including all the odd things like Niven's "Down In Flames" known-space wrapup/killoff,etc.) to the St. Louis Science Fiction Society library. I guess one of these days I ought to start FTPing the more recent Archive files and printing them out for the StLSFS library, too. -Rich ------------------------------ From: madvax!cw@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Weidling) Subject: Re: Who are you? Date: 27 Sep 85 16:17:46 GMT > From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA > assume it works on life though. Creatures notice no ill effects > and people feel continuous through the process. > > What we have here is a way of spawning processes... this template > will feel like they are the original, except that they should know > they are copies from a discontinuity in the surroundings. There > is ... I wonder about their first words. Would they all say the > same thing after walking out of the machine? Would it be the same > thing the original said? How quickly would they pick up on the > fact they were not the original? > > What if there are a bunch of you walking around? How do you > identify the original?... decide who got to live again? Popular > vote? Elvis Lives? > > The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that cheating death may > be fun, but it's not a really sensible long term solution to life. > After all, you still have to die, each and every replication. Why > put yourself through that pain again {, and again}? A science fiction novel that explores some of these ideas has the misleading title "Rogue Moon". It is by Alfred Bester. A man is run through a machine that sends all the info on him to a station on the moon. Two copies of him now exist, one on earth, one on the moon, tapes can also be made. For a while the two copies are in telepathic content. The people want to keep them in telepathic content as long as possible because the moon copy is figuring out a deadly maze and constantly getting killed, but all his experiences, including his death, are experienced and remembered by the earthly copy. An interesting story by Clifford Simak, concerns a double created to perform a deadly mission. The double doesn't know it's a double and is supposed to be rubbed out when the job is done. Simak has said that this is the most vicious story he ever wrote, and that it is no wonder it is the only one ever put on television. It was done in an "Outer Limits" episode. Regards, Carl Weidling ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 85 13:30 EDT From: Gubbins@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Energize... I dug up my old Star Trek transporter message... Original submission date to SF-LOVERS: August 1983 Subject: Energize... Mr. Spock, will you please explain the principles of the Transporter to SF-Lovers . Like really, how does it work? Spock said quietly, "It is a multi-stage process. First, your body is entirely mapped - that's what produces the sparkle effect - then the component molecules are disassembled and converted into photonic waves -" Photonic waves??? Spock said drily, "Photonic waves: the interference pattern in a coherent transporter beam - which is a much more precise and controlled development of the same principle that produces a phaser beam - phased light, but of a very high frequency. In fact, the frequency approaches the theoretical limits of the vibratory ability of matter in this particular configuration of space-time. The beam has the ability to penetrate some kinds of materials. If the target is well-shielded, however, or moving too rapidly, focusing becomes problematic. Anything less than 99.9999% accuracy is usually -," he hesitated for only the briefest of instants, "- less than desirable. At the point at which the interference patterns coalesce, the transported object rematerializes." Eh??? Spock explained further. "It's really quite simple. The locus of coalescence is controlled by the separate frequencies of the individual beams that make up the mega-beam of the transporter. This is usually handled entirely by the transmitting station... The information being sent on the beam exists not within the beam itself but in the harmonics of the various interference patterns that the separate beams produce. Although there are three-dimensional harmonics produced throughout the length of the beam, they are chaotic orders, out of tune with each other. At the point at which all the harmonics come into phase again - that is, the point of focus - all of the separate frequencies are once more tuned exactly as they were at the point of transportation, and the photonic waves collapse back into their material equivalents - forming an exact replica of the pattern that they held at the moment of disassembly. I hope that makes it all clear to you." Can we take a taxi instead? Lt. Kevin Riley adds, "It's safer than the taxi. If for any reason there's a problem, the polarity of the monitron beam can be reversed and instead of transporting to a target, the beam brings you back." [So now we know. This should provide enough flaming fuel for a while as to pattern reconstruction and memory management. Quoted material from >The Galactic Whirlpool< by David Gerrold of Tribbles fame, page 141.] Additional Comment: As I see it, the transporter 'maps' you to make sure you come out okay (possibly needed for focusing and beam correction). The beam hits you with infinite harmonics and your matter (and energy?) 'falls' into its corresponding harmonics in the beam. The beam is focused at the other end and you 'fall out' of the beam. Although the beam itself requires a lot of power, matter is neither created nor destroyed. You are literally picked up and placed elsewhere. You are the same you that was before being transported, a lot like taking a taxi and being wisked away and deposited elsewhere, except a whole lot faster. Neat, huh? Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 85 13:47:24 EDT From: TONG@RED.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Re: Who are you? Even leaving out such exotic possibilities as cloning, the issue of "Who am I?" is not easily resolved in situations that really occur. E.g.: Who am I in the moment after I wake up, but before my mind clicks into operation? Who am I when I'm "totally absorbed" in listening to a symphony performance? Who am I when "I am asleep"? Who am I when I'm fantasizing about being someone else? Who am I before I am born, but after I've been conceived? Who am I if I am a creature that has no memory? In all of the situations, I exist, regardless of whether I am remembering "me". As far as I can see, all self-definitions presented in this discussion, have been memory- rather than existentially oriented. Now one can "explain" some of these situations as a lapse of memory, which will eventually return...but really, existence is prior to and more fundamental than memory. Chris ------------------------------ Date: 2 Oct 85 15:33:51 EDT From: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: re: matter transmission well, this is certainly been flogged long enough, but there seem to be some misunderstandings here. there seems to be a feeling that my point is based on the existence of a soul. not true. whether or not there's a soul, i'll allow it to be copied along with the rest of me. my arguments still stand, even applied to the soul. in fact, my impression increasingly is that the other side of the argument is imaging that my soul will magically fly to the duplicate and make that hunk of matter "me" rather than a mere copy, however identical. i think a recent post (which, i believe, was arguing against me) said it best: "'Having the same indentity' is not an equivalence relation." exactly my point. just because it looks like me, talks like me, smells like me, acts like me, and thinks it is me doesn't make it me. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 4 Oct 85 1037-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #393 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 6 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 393 Today's Topics: Books - Aldiss & Cherryh & Clarke & Hogan & Sagan & Silverberg, Films - Time After Time, Miscellaneous - Families of Authors & Buying Books & Light Sabres & Matter Transmission (3 msgs) & The Good Old Days of SF-L ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu 3 Oct 85 18:39:09-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: re: Brian Aldiss's comments Brain Aldiss' "Report on Probability A" is a fair-to-good short story, puffed up into a novel by the addition of minutely observed random trivia. I certainly don't know what there could be about it to misunderstand. Don Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 85 16:03 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Cherryh I find Cherryh's writing compelling. She deals with characters and situations that may not appeal to everyone. Morgaine of the trilogy that bears her name is a case in point. Morgaine is an anti-hero of sorts. As opposed to Thomas Covenant who causes grief through inaction, she causes grief through action. Her purpose is basically good, but at the price of innocents. Downbelow Station I found to be sensational. Her sense of political, social, and economic forces, as well as personal motivations and emotions was well- developed. Cherryh may deal with darker situations than some are willing to read, but she does so very well. Dostoevski (sp) was not such a happy and cheerful either. either. either. either. either. either. either. Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) (...ihnp4!umn-cs!hi-csc!slocum) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 3 Oct 85 20:48:58-CDT From: Mayank Prakash Subject: Re: Inverse of stories where H.S. gets its come uppance. To: grady@UCB-VAX.ARPA >On the otherside of the coin, I recall a story (book?) wherein the >upstart new Earthlings first come out into space, after having been >given the technology for space drive, and suddenly the galaxy finds >itself up a creek, because the humans are conniving, conning, and >in general swindling the other people of the galaxy, because it >turns out the humans are just plain smarter than the other races. > >Just out of curiosity, anyone got a name for this story? There is a similar story by Clarke called "The Rescue Party", in which the humans are supposed to be the smartest race in the Galaxy. mayank. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 2 Oct 1985 17:39:59-PDT From: goun%15518.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Ask me about my personal_name) Subject: Re: THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan > Hogan's set-up for creating a new race at the medieval stage > is to describe how the robotics equivalent of genetics and > evolution could come about unintentionally. It's not the easiest > way to create an alien race in a story, but it is the novel's > finest hour. It is really intriguing reading and, frankly, the > kind of idea I read science fiction for and all too rarely > actually find. Here, here! This magnificent set-up is mostly in the book's short prologue. It's one of the best bits of hard SF I've ever read. My advice is to read the prologue while standing by the SF shelves at your favorite bookseller. Then buy something else. Roger Goun ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@topaz.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: CONTACT: A Review (Non-spoiler) Date: 1 Oct 85 16:49:03 GMT Carl Sagan, like all mainstream writers trying to write SF, uses SF themes that have been covered in our genre for ages, and CONTACT is no exception. What is different, however, is that his book is not about alien contact only; specifically, it is his speculation upon the nature of religious faith, of one's relationship with the Universe. It is the story of Dr. Ellile Arroway and her search for her truth, how she proceeds on her quest, how it hanges her, how it impacts on the human race. I think it is a gem, but SF fans must read it as a mainstream novel--don't expect all the genre bases to be touched. There is no allowance for SF traditions, and every scientific speculation is carefully spelled out for the average reader of the NY Times best seller list. I would be surprised if some people are not surprised by events in the storyline. (Write me by E mail and let's talk spoiler talk!) arlan andrews ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 85 13:07 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Silverbob's _Amanda and the Alien_ I would like to give my endorsement to Robert Silverberg's _Amanda and the Alien_ as one of the funniest stories I have read in a long time. It just illustrates a point that I have long believed; nothing is deadlier than a bored 18 year old girl. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 85 17:17 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Time after Time (I know this is a bit late, but I was off net for a while and only recently got back on). I found the movie "Time after Time" to be a refreshing variation on the theme of "The Time Machine". I found it to be much more interesting than the movie version of "The Time Machine" with Rod Steiger. A good plot, well paced, well-developed characters. A step above the average SF film. The ease with which Jack the Ripper fit into modern society was terrifying in itself. His comments in the hotel room to Wells were chilling. I put this movie into my "Top Ten" list. Well maybe "Top Fifteen". Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 85 09:55:56 edt From: Carol Morrison Subject: Families of SF Authors My favorite autobiographical comment is in the paragraph Gene Wolfe wrote about himself in "Again, Dangerous Visions": "I have a wife and four children. They seem like more." ------------------------------ Subject: buying books from independents Date: 03 Oct 85 13:11:57 EDT (Thu) From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA I'd like to echo David Levine's suggestion that you patronize the independent booksellers. When I travel it is incredibly depressing to walk into a Waldenbooks or a B. Dalton's in a shopping center, and see how few books there are, and how many of them are ``Garfield's Tofu Diet'' books, after the wealth of independents near where I live. Something Mr. Levine didn't mention: recently publishers have begun to say they will sell ONLY to the chains. Avon books (considered a high-brow publisher) recently announced they would not accept orders for fewer than copies of a single title, where was a fairly large number, so that now the only way independent bookstores can order from Avon is to join cooperatives which pool the orders for several independents. This is kind of a curious policy for Avon, as they publish a lot of books (e.g., their Latin-American series, with Amado, Garcia-Marquez) which are the kind of books you go to an independent to find. This is just one more example of the shopping-mallification of our society: every shopping mall in the country has a B Dalton's selling exactly the same inventory of books, right next to the teeny-bopper store with a cute name selling sleeveless sweatshirts with bright pastel geometric shapes and the fancy chocolate shop and the record store selling Aerosmith and Twisted Sister records ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1985 14:53 EDT From: Rob Austein Subject: Light-saber construction... The point about Sinclair monofilament and high temperatures is a good one. We know for a fact that a large field of Tnuctipun Sunflowers will generate enough energy to burn/melt/whatever it through. Shadow square wire may be a better choice since it is demonstrably more durable (it didn't even break when the Liar crashed into it, it just pulled loose from its mountings). Of course it may be that shadow square wire is really just superconducting monofilament and that it uses the shadow squares as heat sinks. In that case, maybe the reason it takes training to use a lightsaber is that you have to learn how to dispose of all that heat (via the Force, of course) before your hand fries (now we know what happened to Darth). The mirror itself is obviously held in position by reactionless thrusters (which may run off of the generated heat mentioned above); the laser beam provides navigational data for the thrusters and looks impressive to scare off the peons. The real cutting is done by the monofilament. Since the laser doesn't have to be that all high energy for this you don't have to worry about blinding people either. Rob ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@topaz.rutgers.edu (The Polymath) Subject: Re: matter transmission and duplication Date: 27 Sep 85 17:37:06 GMT ewiles@netex.UUCP (Ed Wiles) writes: >> From: Don.Provan@CMU-CS-A >> you can walk into a disintegrator beam and have a copy of you >> made on another planet if you want, but i'm fond of this >> particular copy of myself. > >I know I have qualms about walking into a Trans Mat and having it >fail, but taking the view that it kills you when the 'copy' is >indistinguishable from the original is a bit radical. There seem to be two key issues in this discussion: 1) Point of view. From the point of view of the rest of the universe, it makes no difference whether matter transmission kills the original or not. If the person who comes out the other end is an identical copy then they're the same person for all practical purposes. From the point of view of the person being transmitted it matters very much indeed (at least, it does to me). This bring us to issue two: 2) The nature of consciousness and its reaction to the death of the host organism. The problem here is we simply don't know. Dozens of speculative scenarios come to mind, some more encouraging than others. a) The original is dead and the new personality takes up where the old one left off. (Thanks, but I'd rather walk). b) The mind, liberated from the original body automatically seeks out the duplicate and re-installs itself. (How do we know?) c) The mind is transmitted with the body and emerges intact at the other end. (How do we know?) d) Etc., etc. I don't know about anyone else, but until we get some proven, reliable way of communicating with a mind separated from any host organism (i.e.: proof of continued consciousness after organic death), I wouldn't ride in the damn thing. Given such proof, I'd want to hear what such a consciousness had to say about the matter transmission experience before making up my mind. Jerry Hollombe Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: Thu 3 Oct 85 02:07:54-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: reincarnation The discussion about copying human beings is all very interesting, but the subject has been well handled in some very good books. A sampler: The World Of Null A (A.E. Van Vogt, 1948) ... wherein the hero keeps dying, and then waking up in a new body... Fabulous pseudoscience. Classic cliffhanger. People Minus X (Raymond Z. Gallun, 1957) ... wherein the victims of a disaster are recreated - but from the memories of the embittered survivors ... A more modern work, by which I mean that the moral and social aspects shared the plot with the exciting ideas (like miniaturized people!). And while I have the podium: I remember a short story about someone who learned enough magic to copy things. So, he made enough of himself to be a jazz band, and lived happily in the woods until one of him decided to be an army and kill all the capitalists. It was a fabulous story. I'd like to find it again: can anyone help ? Don Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Thu 3 Oct 85 19:34:34-PDT From: Rich Zellich Subject: Deja vu: Editing stored matter transmitter images I was wondering when someone would bring this up again;we did a couple of weeks worth of discussion on this a year or two ago. Carl Greenburg seems to have hit the main points already in the first [new] message on this subject. I don't think we ever hit some of the social/legal issues before, though. If you "print out" another copy of yourself, which one of you gets your job, has to pay taxes,etc.(assuming the copies are sufficiently identical that no difference can be told between the original and any of the copies)? Rich ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 85 19:37:11 edt From: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix Subject: THe good old days of SF-L A short history of SF-L, as I recall it: SFL started as a direct distibution list in the late seventies. The original maintainer (Ed somebody?) soon went on to greener pastures, and dumped the thing in Roger Duffey's lap. I met Roger in 1980, when he pulled my butt out of a political fire I had started at the AI lab. I got to know him, and helped him out a little with the SFL and HumanNets distribution in the early 80's. By 1980, SFL reached something like 2000 addresses directly. It (and HNets) were a sufficient load on the MIT-MC mailer that he had hung a bag onto the side of the COMSAT mailer called PULSAR, which spread the distribution over 3 machines and 4 hours. His constant complaint was that SFL was taking so much time away from his thesis that he would never graduate. The total archives as of early '81 were something like 8 megabytes, and were never kept online except when necesary. I once read through the entire pile (about three linear feet of output). One of his main worries was keeping SFL quiet. Our persistant nightmare was DARPA or Proxmire taking a close look at SFL, and Fleecifiying it to death. A number of times, queries as to the eligibility of SFL for fanzine Hugos were quickly smothered. At one point, Roger, Chris Stacy, and I were nervously sitting in the Sheraton Boston during a Boskone, contemplating the potential damage a panel entitled "Computers and Fanzines" could do to us. While we joked about standing up and yelling FIRE if anyone mentioned SFL, Roger mumbled about emergency plane tickets to Russia. At one point, I mentioned Roger's name loudly, and a man came over. He said "Are you Roger Duffey? I'm running the panel the afternoon, and I was looking for you." It turned out that not only were all the panelists SFL readers, but that they had all agreed to keep clear of SFL in the discussion. (As a footnote, at the Boskone in 1984, things had improved enough so that we actually had a panel where Saul Jaffe, Chip Hitchcock, and I were all participating, and SFL was the main topic). The Noreascon II SFL party was much like the current parties, with the following exceptions. 1) There were more pros (notably Pournelle, who was still reading SFL at the time (and maybe Niven?)). 2) The party was held in a suite, donated for the evening by Robert Forward. He graced the room for the entire night with his neon plaid vest. 3) There were less people. There might have been 20 people in and out of the room all night, as compared to about 40 at the LA party. Given that Saul estimated 20,000 readers of SFL at last count, this isn't surprising. As a final note, much of the digest protocol seen today (headers, local redistribution, compactifying and elimination of duplicate messages) is directly connected to Roger's work with SFL and Human Nets. He did a remarkable amount of pioneering work, especially when you consider that the digests were a hobby to him. James Turner ARPA ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA decvax \ sri-unix \ UUCP !cca!ringwld!jmturn ima / linus / MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Oct 85 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #394 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 394 Today's Topics: Books - Bear vs Brin & Killough & McKinley & Tolkien & Zelazny & Omni Story & STL Stories, Films - Star Trek IV, Miscellaneous - Nepotism & Matter Transmission & Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Brin, Sagan, etc. Date: 2 Oct 85 16:12:00 GMT Greg Bear *is* one of my favorite writers and based on your recommendations, I'll add Eon and Infinity Concerto to my already long to-be-read queue. (If I had a matter transmitter that made me a duplicate of me, I'd try to send him out to earn a living while I stayed home to read and write. And loaf.) My comment about Brin should be read as "the best of Brin." While the Bear that I've read so far has been exquisite, it has not been the tour de force that STARTIDE RISING was. Some of the rest of Brin's work ranges from average to merely good, though I have high hopes for THE POSTMAN and, especially THE UPLIFT WAR. I suspect some of the commentary on I've read on the net concerning dolphins while partly directed at Brin, has more to do with the knock-offs and imitations. Brin did the dolphin's well, with good characterization (Takkata-Jim was one of my favorites in the whole book), a reasonable social structure, and in a stroke of inspired brilliance, the dolphin linguistic system, including Trinary. Brin did a high-wire act, without a net, and in my opinion, pulled it off, which makes SR a tour de force. Bear writes beautifully, but -- and no criticism implied -- in the work's I've read he's never gone out on the high-wire. Greg Benford is also friends with both Brin and Bear. The San Diego Bees as Shawna McCarthy called them. I'm almost willing to move a hundred miles south just to see if some if it would rub off on me. Cheers. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: LIBERTY'S WORLD by Lee Killough Date: 2 Oct 85 15:06:55 GMT The jacket reads: "The planet seemed like salvation for the dying colony ship Invictus, except...within a day of landing, the colonists found the world to be inhabited and themselves caught between two opposing cannibalistic armies. For Liberty Ibarra, who learned languages fast, the situation called for courage, tact, and a blind faith in the alien's envoy, the brother of the enigmatic emperor...until she learned that her "friend" was also a political schemer with a talent for assassination. Then it began to look as through the humans had dived over the edge of the pan straight into the fire." Well, this is another uninspiring and misleading jacket description, and as is all-too-often the case, if I hadn't already read and enjoyed some books by Lee Killough, I wouldn't have bought this one. Lee Killough is very talented in writing stories about alien cultures. This is a hard subject to handle successfully. One must tread a fine line between giving the aliens too many human characteristics and making them so strange that the reader cannot relate to them. DEADLY SILENTS (by the author) deals with humans and aliens, and my index card for the author tells me that I gave that book my highest rating, 4 stars. THE MONITOR, THE MINERS, AND THE SHREE doesn't have any humans, and I gave it 3.5 stars. The scenario here is as follows. A colony ship develops serious mechanical problems many years away from its destination. The crew votes to look for habitable planets in the nearest appropriate star system. A planet is found and the ship lands, but it can never take off again. The crewmembers come from two Earth backgrounds: essentially advantaged versus disadvantaged. Liberty is from the latter. I'm happy to say the author doesn't beat the reader over the head explaining earth culture; one learns about that obliquely. As the jacket says, the planet is found to be inhabited. The natives' society reminded me of feudal Japan, but there are a number of significant cultural differences. We learn about them through Liberty's adventures. Enough of the plot. The crew follows a version of the Star Trek "Prime Directive" as regards giving technology to a backward people, and I appreciated that. I also liked the way the author treated Liberty's reaction to major cultural differences. The first part of the book seemed a bit slow to me, but the pace picked up appreciably in the second half and maintained my interest through the end. I can't give this book as high a rating as the others I've read by the author, but it still ends up with 3 stars (very good). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1985 16:14 EDT From: Dean Sutherland Subject: Books by Robin McKinley Robin McKinley has written two books which readers of fantasy would be well advised to check out. They are "The Blue Sword" and "The Hero and the Crown". Unfortunately, they have been marketed almost exclusively as children's books. Both are available in hardcover from Greenwillow books, "The Blue Sword" is also available in paperback from Ace(???). "The Hero and the Crown" is the latest Newberry award novel. "The Blue Sword" was a Newberry Honor book several years ago. Both books deserve to reach a much wider audience than they have been marketed to. I would recommend these books to anyone who enjoys fantasy. They are VERY good. I tried writing a review, but I found that I could not do the books justice. I would therefore like to ask some kind, eloquent person (perhaps one of the Leepers?) to read and review these excellent works. Dean F. Sutherland ------------------------------ From: iddic!dorettas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock) Subject: perhaps a silly (or dead) question... Date: 30 Sep 85 20:26:57 GMT This may be, as I said up there, a silly question, but it has created a certain amount of debate in these parts. The question is: How tall is a Hobbit??? I believe Tolkein described them as looking like 10-year olds to the men of Gondor, but many times people (especially in FRP games) describe them as being about 3 feet tall (just bigger than my 2 1/2 year old son!). Some discussion of this sort of thing would be welcome. My net address is changing soon, so mail may or may not get through. Mike Sellers ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@topaz.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Yet more Trumps_of_Doom speculation Date: 30 Sep 85 23:42:20 GMT speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Charles R. Speegle) writes: >>> I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is >>> in fact the gemstone of a ring. Also Corwin is not dead, but >>> is masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much. >>> >> Sounds right to me; there is certainly a precedent in >> Ganelon/Oberon... > >When Julia's body was discovered by Merle she was wearing a blue >pendant. Rinaldo wanted Merle to wear his ring, which he didn't >wear himself. The ring has some sort of unknown property. Bill >doesn't know a lot he just asks a lot of questions and then does >some deductive reasoning. In the earlier Amber series he does the >same for Corwin. One question which has nagged me for some time: Merlin is not JUST the son of Corwin of Amber, but is ALSO the son of Dara of Chaos. Dara, like many of the Chaoids, is a shapeshifter. Merlin grew up in Chaos. Corwin, when faced by an enraged and dangerous Dworkin, was horrified to see Dworkin transforming from a feeble, old man into a fierce, huge, monster of terrifying strength. So, first, is shapeshifting MAGIC or is it an inherent property of the Chaos Line? In which case, Merlin should be able to shapeshift freely. Secondly, is there an upper limit to the strength of the eventual form of a Chaoid? If not, then Merlin can get out, despite the fact that the prison was blocked by a terrifically heavy rock, by becoming something big and strong enough to move the rock. Or he can just become something small enough to get out through the cracks... Oh, all right, I know, Zelazny doesn't want the puzzle solved that simply. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Fri 4 Oct 85 09:55:53-PDT From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Flame/spoiler/just hit the "n" **** flame **** For reasons I do NOT understand, it takes at least a week for me to receive sf-lovers messages (a fact I find strangely appropriate for an SF bboard) and even longer to send them (Perhaps a long time going out and then a long time coming back?). And before anyone asks -- no, I don't live on Neptune. Even given this lag time, I'm going to try and reply, or rather to add to, the note about the story in Omni where the Soviets repeatedly kill prisioners. **** spoiler **** The point to the Omni story was the same as every story -- The conflict and it's resolution. The story evolves like this: We start with an internal conflict. How is the main character going to react to the torture? The corrupt and hypocritical Soviet government is too inflexible and omnipresent to really be involved. This fact is what helps the story go. When in the past has there been no where to run? (I mean at a global level) When have the rebels had no place to flee? This may also be a reference to the U.S.A and the (nasty) U.S.S.R. taking the rest of the world down with them should their egos flair. Anyway, at this point the situation looks hopeless. The soviet system controls the entire world, and our intrepid hero has been imprisoned and is being murdered continually until he becomes a "good" citizen. **** FLAME **** At this point in the story, I wish I could force everyone to put the magazine down until they think of their own ending which brings everything into focus, ties up all the loose ends, is plausible, is drawn from principles inherent in the story, and is even happy (or at least hopeful). When you give up in total frustration, pick the magazine back up and see how good the author really is. **** Spoiler **** After a while our hero becomes immune to murder (so to speak). And when asked to apologize for his past deeds, (motivated by being murdered a bunch of times) he coldly and boldly tells an audience that the Soviet government is as nasty as it really is. Now our nasties are really in a state. People are starting to listen to our hero and murdering him has become both expensive and ineffective. They finally decide to do something they rarely do. They put him on a space craft and send him toward a planet that might be habitable. AHA! Now the rebels have some place to flee. Now they have a place to mass and build an army. By not dealing with our hero they have in fact sealed their own doom. The reader is left with the feeling that the nasty Soviets will one day be destroyed, that all is right with the world, and that God is in his Heaven. I love good fiction, Bob ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 1985 09:11:09-EDT (Friday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: stl travel Another STL story is "This Moment of the Storm" by Zelazny, from "Doors of his face, Lamps of His Mouth..." ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: ST IV Date: 1 Oct 85 20:08:38 GMT The Star Trek Welcommittee is, of course, an unimpeachable source. But let us hope Paramount changes it mind before it's too late. rjs ------------------------------ From: utrc-2at!davidh@topaz.rutgers.edu (David M Haynes) Subject: Re: Re: Writing offspring of writers Date: 4 Oct 85 00:20:49 GMT OK, A challenge at last! James Blish and Beth Blish Edgar Rice Burroughs and John Coleman Burroughs Edgar Rice Burroughs and Hulbert Burroughs Howard Fast and Jonathon Fast (Jonathon is married to Erica Jong) William Murray Gradon and Murray Roberts Frank Herbert and Brian Herbert Fred Hoyle and Geoffrey Hoyle Fritz Leiber and Justin Leiber Richard Matheson and Richard Christian Matheson John Middleton Murray and Richard Cowper (RC is pen-name for Colin Murray) Rachel Cosgrove Payes and Robert Payes Frederick Pohl and Federick Pohl IV (non-fiction book) Milton Rothman and Tony Rothman Clifford D. Simak and Richard S. Simak Theodore Sturgeon and Robin Sturgeon J.R.R. Tolkien and Christopher Tolkien (posthumously) Manly Wade Wellman and Wade Wellman Austin Tappan Wright and Tappan King Whew! Enough???? David Haynes ..!utzoo!ecrhub!david ------------------------------ From: fortune!polard@topaz.rutgers.edu (Henry Polard) Subject: Re: matter transmission and personal identity Date: 4 Oct 85 16:29:57 GMT >..a famous puzzle, known as the ship of Theseus: ... Similarly, >what makes you the same person as you were when you were 12 years >old? Probably almost all of the atoms in your body have been >replaced in that time. Well, you REMEMBER being that 12 year >old... So is it your memory of being that 12 year old that makes >you the same person? The discussion on teleportation has assumed that we are always the "same" through time, e.g, I am the "same" person as the 12 year old I remember myself to be. But I am different (I had no beard then, and was innocent of the delights of U*ix), and can see myself changing from moment to moment as I change oxygen molecules through breathing and change mentally through new experiences (learning). For an investigation of personality from the point of view of change rather than stasis, I suggest reading in Buddhist philosophy (What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula is a start), specifically the part of Buddhist philosphy called Abhidharma. I think that from the Buddhist point of view (this is an abstration; there are really many Buddhist points of view) the ship of Theseus is different with each change, but because it we think it useful to do so, out of convenience we label it as the "same" ship. Similarly, from instant to instant we are "different", but because we think it useful to do so, out of convenience, we think we are the "same" person as we remember we were. From this point of view there may be no difference between changes during teleporting and changes from one instant to the next, no matter how much we are destroyed and re-created. Henry Polard {ihnp4,cbosgd,amd}!fortune!polard ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 4 Oct 1985 07:19:32-PDT From: kenah%super.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (Andrew Kenah, DTN 381-1078) Subject: Cover typos A recent posting mentioned several typos on a Bluejay edition, and asked if any similar typos existed. A few years ago, I bought the six "Lucky Starr" novels, written by Isaac Asimov (as Paul French). One of them had, on the front cover, the title: LUCKY STARR AND THE BIG SUN MERCURY On the spine, the title read: LUCKY STARR AND THE BIG SUN OF MERCURY I found it hard to believe that nobody noticed that a word was missing from the book's title -- on the front cover. Andrew Kenah DEC, Spit Brook Road, Nashua NH ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Oct 85 0947-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #395 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 395 Today's Topics: Books - Delany & Hogan & Pohl & STL Stories, Television - Amazing Stories & The New Twilight Zone & Alfred Hitchcock Presents, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND Date: 4 Oct 85 21:37:06 GMT STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND: first half of a diptych, Samuel R. Delany, 1984; Bantam Spectra, 1985, 375 pages "'We're planning to pluck all the best stars out of the sky and stuff them into our pockets,' I said, 'so that when we meet you once again and thrust our hands deep inside to hide our embarrassment, our fingertips will smart on them, as if they were desert grains, caught down in the seams, and we'll smile at you on your way to a glory that, for all our stellar thefts, we shall never be able to duplicate." [p.132] My FUNK AND WAGNALLS STANDARD DICTIONARY (where else would I look it up in?) defines a diptych as "1, A double tablet; especially, two tablets of wood, metal, or ivory, hinged together and covered on the inside with wax, on which the ancient Greeks and Romans wrote with a stylus. 2, A cover for a book, resembling this. 3, A double picture or design on a pair of hinged tablets or panels." (They give an illustration of the last; have you ever seen a hinged pair of portraits of saints, or of photos of different people, perhaps at different ages? That's what it looks like.) Delany begins the book with, "STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND is the first novel in an SF diptych. The second novel in the diptych is THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES, OF CITIES." I guess a diptych is a trilogy without the middle book. I'll probably get THE SPLENDOR AND MISERY OF BODIES, OF CITIES, the second half of the diptych, when it comes out. I'm not entirely sure why; certainly not to finish the story I started reading here. STARS IN MY POCKET LIKE GRAINS OF SAND is rich in description, culture, aliens, tradition; maybe everything but story, and possibly characterization. We see a lot of strange planets and people (not all of the latter human), and we get to know quite a bit about some of the planets. It's a galactic whirlwind, complete with dizziness. (One of the characters tells how much more you can learn about a world by taking a simulated tour, rather than actually visiting.) Delany never misses an opportunity to go off on an interesting tangent, exploring lush tributaries of a dry river bed. The Prologue concerns itself with a world, and one of its natives (actually, a nth generation human colonist). If you have any doubt that Delany can tell a story, this should dispel it. (So should a *lot* of Delany's other writing.) Except in the Prologue, STARS also concerns the narrator; at least, it never leaves her side. She's as tempest tossed as the reader, and very few of her goals are of import to what goes on in the novel. A word or two about pronouns: "'she' is the pronoun for all sentient individuals of whatever species who have achieved the legal status of 'woman.' The ancient, dimorphic form 'he,' once used exclusively for the genderal indication of males (cf. the archaic term MAN, pl. MEN), for more than a hundred-twenty years now, has been reserved for the general sexual object of "she," during the period of excitation, regardless of the gender of the woman speaking of the gender of the woman being referred to." [p. 78] Except in the Prologue. In fact, the woman who is the main character is a male human, who (this is essential to the plot!), unlike most women who enjoy sex with women of either gender, is primarily turned on by large human males with acne and short fingernails. Twice in the novel, she (the narrator) remarks with surprise how, in some places, sado-masochism and "what's called beastiality" are (giggle) actually forbidden, even by law! I'm sure that all of this, including the short fingernails, is making some very subtle political statement. Maybe, "sex can be pleasurable without being pleasant"? The pronouns I can accept as a reversal of the expected. Some other things - for instance, claiming one world just happened to have a compass rose with five directions (north, east, south, oest, and west) - don't seem to make a lot of sense. By and large, though, the bizzare bazaar of detail works at enrichening the novel. Delany wasn't writing a story; he was conducting an experiment. Realize that not all experiments "succeed" or "fail"; many simply yield data. There's a lot here, much of it good, but not enough of it working to stir the cauldron of Story; and as a *story*, as something to read rather than study, I think it fails. Maybe I'd enjoy it more the second time around? Maybe; but if so, the books requires, but doesn't encourage, you to reread it. I neither recommend that you read or don't read this book. (But if you read it, let me know what you got out of it!) ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ix469@topaz.rutgers.edu (david smith) Subject: Re: THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan Date: 4 Oct 85 07:12:40 GMT leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: > > THE CODE OF THE LIFEMAKER by James P. Hogan > > Also interesting is the main character. By profession he is a >mass- media-psychic and charleton of the Uri Geller variety. In >the early parts of the novel you see how Zambendorf is able to >hoodwink audiences in creative ways. That also makes for >intriguing reading but what is even more intriguing is the >question: if we discovered intelligent robotic aliens in our solar >system, why would anyone want to use devious means to get a Uri >Geller to the first contact? Particularly if those people are >convinced that the psychic is a fraud. When you do find out, it >does make sense, but that puzzle certainly kept me anxious. If I read you right, I think you missed the point of why Zambendorf was there. He was there *not* to make first contact, but to send back reports on the Taloids (the mechanical inhabitants) which would have credibility with the masses due to his mass popularity. His making first contact was completely unforseen. David L. Smith UC Sandy Eggo {ucbvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix469 ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: THE YEARS OF THE CITY by Frederik Pohl Date: 4 Oct 85 21:40:15 GMT THE YEARS OF THE CITY: novel, Frederik Pohl, 1984. Winner of the John W. Campbell Memorial Award for best novel of the year. Recently, it seems I've talking about the good points of a book, then vaguely explaining why I don't like it. This time, I'm hard put to find particular elements that are outstanding, but I like the results. THE YEARS OF THE CITY looks like a collection of short stories. It's not. It's a novel that covers several hundred years, by considering five crises. (I'm not sure if they would stand alone as five individual stories.) The city of the title is "the City", New York. The first episode, "When New York Hit the Fan", tells of a city very much like the one we know and love (well, some of us), on a day where the Mayor is less in charge than Murphy. The key to this story is that New York - and by imitation, the rest of the world - decides to really *solve* its problems. The next two parts, "The Greening of Bed-Stuy" and "The Blister", concern the forces of change and their fight with the powers that be, notably, organized crime. The final two sections, "Second-hand Sky" and "Gwenanda and the Supremes", take place in a New York that's a utopia, compared to our own. The problems are trivial, compared to the earlier stories, because New York has learned to deal with some of its worst weaknesses. So, how does it measure up on my usual rulers? The characters don't leap out of the book at you, but they're fleshed out nicely, no more or no less than necessary for the stories to be about THEM. The prose is Pohl at his best: GATEWAY, say, or THE SPACE MERCHANTS. But what I really enjoyed about the book is the way Pohl kept it all together. Most of the changes the city (and society) goes through are based on ideas from the twentieth century (well, heck, Pohl had heard of them). One year's dream is the next year's project, and the following year's history. At the beginning, the new political and technological ideas are in conflict with each other, as well as the STATUS QUO; they blend together as time goes on. And by various tricks, Pohl manages to keep a minimal continuity of characters across the centuries. Some books are good reads. THE YEARS OF THE CITY is a GOOD read. (And it's now out in paperback, or soon will be.) Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258) Subject: Re: Slower than light space travel Date: 1 Oct 85 04:19:13 GMT Niven had several short stories and novels in Known Space series with under-FTL speed space travel ( before the Outsider contact - see "Known Space of Larry Niven" for chronology). I can remember "Protector" , "World of Ptavvs" (sp?) and "Gift from Earth" ... Also both Nivens's State novels ( " A World Out Of Time" and "Integral Trees"). ------------------------------ From: puff!pauer@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Amazing Stories (NBC, Sunday, 8PM Pacific) Date: 4 Oct 85 15:23:31 GMT > While watching this, all I could think of was "ET meets twilight > zone" and I find that both lose. Spielberg said that they were > going to emphasize fantasy because the cost of special effects in > a SF anthology was exorbitant. I can't disagree with that, but > they took a story with a lot of possibilities (a variant of "The > Hell Bound Train" and gutted it. There was no attempt at > character development, after five minutes you knew what the ending > was going to be. They could have played it for laughs or tried to > do a serious traditional "Twilight Zone" style episode. Instead > they took a semi serious track and then tossed in a bunch of cheap > reaction shots. The end result is a mess with no impact, no real > direction, and a number of attempted one liners that fail because > they seem out of place. I think the script was a little weak, but > I don't think this is the fault of the writer (I didn't catch > their name, unfortunately). As director, Spielberg could have > taken this script in either direction and done it successfully. By > his unwillingness to add a direction to the story and trying to do > both, he fails. > > I know see why copies of the show weren't made available in > advance. There is a lot riding on Amazing and the return of the > anthology, and if this is the episode they used to start off the > seriese, I don't hold out a lot of hope for future episodes. > Perhaps Spielberg just couldn't handle the 30 minute format, or > perhaps they haven't really figured out what they want to do with > it. > > I hope it gets better. I don't think it can get much worse. > Fortunately, a local PBS station has started playing "Outer > Limits" at 11PM on Sundays, so the evening isn't a complete waste. > I just wish Spielberg had done a better job of recreating the > classic anthology format. All he did in the opening episode of > "Amazing Stories" was mock it. It seems Spielberg's own rep ruined the effect of this episode. His action-minded audience can take this as a mystical time-travel story. It was effective to me, though, because I interpreted the story as a view of death through a child's eyes. If you see it again, watch it with this view. Also, I believe they were saying Opah, (or something that sounds that way) which, according to my girlfriend, is German for grandfather. ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@topaz.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: "Shatterday" (and "Just A Little Piece and Quiet" and "Ghost Subject: Train") Date: 4 Oct 85 21:43:05 GMT "Shatterday": premier episode of the new TWILIGHT ZONE series, based on a short story by Harlan Ellison; first aired Friday, the 27th of September, 1985. At the cost of two days, Ellison's story completely filled a half- hour teleplay. There were only occasional, dramatic seconds of someone considering what's going on, as compared to minutes of "Ooh, lookit that!" And I ain't gonna tell you a *damn* thing about the story. This is a reasonably faithful adaptation of the short story. One day where nothing happens is omitted, and the events of the last day (which made for a slightly stronger ending) aren't shown. I think if Ellison had done the script, he *might* have been able to wedge those in; it would only take another sixty seconds of air time. The problem is that there isn't sixty seconds to spare! Oh, that more television had such problems. A quick comparison to two following screenplays: "Just a Little Peace and Quiet", the other half-hour teleplay of THE TWILIGHT ZONE, might have had sixty seconds it could have given up. It's an idea story, a think piece; it didn't have the characterization of "Shatterday", but it did a good job of treating its subject. AMAZING STORIES' "Ghost Train" was E.T. with a different premise, done as a half-hour teleplay; it had about ten minutes of air time it could have spared. The amazing thing is that we'll be seeing this for two years. Of "Ghost Train", my nine year old said, "Is that it?" Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Sat 5 Oct 85 12:25:58-PDT From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Read this (very slight spoiler) After all, I told you to ignore my first two messages. I deserve at least one. It is Saturday morning, and to the person who reviewed Hitchcock Presents before me I have a few things to say. 1.) After reading your review, I went back and watched it for a third time. 2.) YES, the dance sequence is too long. Sorry about that, I have a weakness for watching pretty women move. 3.) YES, the final long close-up of the husband (which was the only thing I found slightly annoying the first time around) IS rich with black comedy. I bow to a keener eye, Bob Sheleg PS Sigh...Last night's twilight zone was no better than the first. Don't bother watching. The first presented an interesting premise, and then did absolutely nothing with it. The second was a pure (and badly done) rip-off of that gifted writing team of Catherine L. Moore and Henry Kuttner (husband and wife I might add (No, I'm not mnemonic. I had to go look that up)). The stories name (as long as I'm looking things up) is THE CURE. As for the third story, I cannot say. I didn't bother watching. ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: stored matter transmitter images Date: 5 Oct 85 04:20:22 GMT I have often wondered what I would do with a copy of myself---or perhaps what a copy of myself would do with me. For instance, when I got up this afternoon I needed to do my laundry. Suppose I created an exact duplicate. One of me could do the laundry while the other read net.sf-lovers. But if he were an exact duplicate, he (I?---we seem to need new pronouns) would want to read net.sf-lovers and have me do the laundry. How could we come to an agreement? (Perhaps I would do the washing and he the drying... :-) ) Still I can imagine all sorts of interesting things we could do. But until someone invents a duplicator, we will have to be contented with mere speculation. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Oct 85 1008-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #396 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 7 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 396 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Critics (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Science Fiction, Art, Criticism, and Sam Delany Date: 27 Sep 85 19:08:47 GMT blueskye@sun.uucp (Tim Ryan) writes: >... This is a real, professional, mainstream critic here, folks, >so listen up to what some people in the "real world" :-) think >about our beloved SF. Note of course the qualifier "some." Before anyone post a flame in response to this he should ask him/herself whether this is an attitude held by all mainstream critics, a subgroup of mainstream critics, or this critic only. And I'd suggest you read the flames that are guaranteed to show up in Harper's in the next month or two. Don't assume out of hand that all critics agree with Mr. Sante or that all readers of Harper's do. >"It is hard, a century or so later, to recall science fiction's >original promise. Even today, when technological boosterism is at >a pitch not seen in years, the mechanical utopias envisioned back >then seem remote. Just as the creative leisure once anticipated as >the legacy of the machine age materialized only as consumerism and >boredom, so science fiction's great horizons have shrunk. Note that Mr. Sante is responding primarily to his understanding of science fiction as a genre which has its origins in the 19th century. Note also the political stance implied by his use of a term like "technological boosterism" and the assumption that the fruits of our technological activity have been primarily anti-human (e.g., consumerism and boredom). He's obviously one of those Marxist (see below) neo-Luddite types you sometimes run into in humanities departments at your local university. But you should realize when you read something like this that other mainstream critics are probably reading it and dismissing it as nonsense. A critical exchange usually consists of a series of thrusts and counterthrusts, and it will be interesting to see how other critics (if any) respond to the Harper's article. >Rather than inspiring liberty, science fiction has merely generated >a new set of conventions. Instead of drawing anybody onward, these >conventions have led inward, to minutely embroidered variations on >earlier works; sideways, to procrastination and sloth (as when >science fiction disposes of social issues by resolving them in >impossible conditions); and backward, to nostalgia and escapism (as >when it pretends that the present never occurred). He's right in a sense, that science fiction tends to be highly stylized. But his attitude stems from the 20th century attitude that art must "progress" by discarding conventions in favor of a more 'direct' confrontation with reality and the nature of art itself. So what we've sometimes ended up with is art that's so self-referential that it has little to say about the human condition. This, of course, is the same criticism he's levelling at SF. Note the emphasis on 'liberty:' liberty from what and to what purpose? Science fiction DOES sometimes dispose of social issues and pretend that the present never occurs. But his sweeping generalizations lead me to believe that his exposure to SF consists of a few back issues of Amazing and Analog and a couple of books by Delany he read on someone else's recommendation. Or maybe he's been reading net.sf-lovers ... ;-) >"Conventions, of course, are attributes of all literary genres, and >it seems pointless to fault a genre merely for being a genre. What >makes science fiction different from other genres is the hubris of >its intention, which is nothing less than to depict the future, and >the impossible. This is idiocy. He obviously is only superficially familiar with the genre and with its history over the last 50 years. >That it usually delivers pedestrian silliness is therefore thrown >into much greater relief. Like modern technology, science fiction >relies on mystification to disguise the fact that it is continually >retailing the same product." Note the slam (again) against modern technology. He simply does NOT like life as a human since 1800. >"Nor does science fiction exclude humor, but a major component of >humor is irrationality, a quality feared by science fiction. He obviously isn't familiar with Phil Dick's work. Or many other writers of SF works with a heavy dose of "irrationality" in their fiction. >Science fictioneers are addicted to a form of closure, by which >internal consistency is achieved at the cost of absurdity. If >humans shuttle back and forth through time like commuters on the >subway, the mechanism of their travel must be accounted for in a >consistent and 'plausible' way. If aliens are shaped like >hourglasses and exhale chlorine, their physiology must be explained >in terrestrial terms. True to a certain extent. Case in point: the current discussion of the light sabre vs. the blaster in this very newsgroup (talk about angels dancing on the head of a pin!). But to say that all SF writers or readers are like this is to reveal one's own ignorance of the genre. >"This desire to capture the enormous impact of scientific discovery >on the average mind remains a central concern of science fiction. Note "desire to capture:" the reality is that writers like Delany, Silverberg, LeGuin, etc. are actually commenting on science's impact on society and the individual, something this critic thinks is beneath contempt (since he obviously has nothing but contempt for science and technology). We're talking politics here, people, not literature. >Dianetics, which had considerable impact on science fiction ... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ As far as I can tell, horsefeathers (outside L. Ron's clique, of course). Just another instance of his limited knowledge of the field. >"Meanwhile, in the outside world, science fiction finds work as a >commercial fetish, substituting for religion. Consumers are shown >a field of stars blazoned with the device "Beyond!" When >associated with breakfast cereal or pickup trucks, the image of the >cosmos suggests masculine adventure while promising oblivion. >Anything can and does get sold this way. When's the last time you saw an ad of this nature? I have a sneaking suspicion this yoyo (1) doesn't own a television set and (2) never reads "popular" magazines. The commercial approach he's talking about went out around 1958 (which is probably the last time he sat down in front of a TV to see what the 'masses' are into). >Perhaps it is not so much that science fiction has compromised >itself as that time has caught up with it. Its once vast terrain >has been thoroughly plundered; what is left is detritus, >exploitable but degraded. Science and fiction can both be found >elsewhere; the future, though, must still be invented." The same thing has been said about the novel, which still seems to be alive and well as far as I can see. >"Better, perhaps, that the author dispense with earthly >correlatives entirely and drown the reader in extragalactic miasma, >as Samuel R. Delany does in _Stars in my pocket like grains of >sand_. ...His books are dense and thoughtful, if perhaps a shade >overwritten,... "Delany has a flair for the alien, and is quite >adept at convincingly rendering the whole of distant societies. >But he is sometimes hard on the reader, [where have we heard THIS argument before!! ;-)] >who must spend hours deliberating over the probable sexes of >characters ... After a few hundred pages, however, the insistence >has a hypnotic effect, and the conceits take on flesh. ...the book >reveals itself as a doomed-love tale with a very long setup. ... >but instead the doom, the pat ending, and even the lengthy >mis-en-scene seem like camouflage slathered on out of embarrassment. If SF is so easily dismissible as a genre, why is he spending so much time trying to dismiss THIS book? >This is an example of science fiction's accustomed approach to a >subject of burning concern--to the author or to society at large: >put it aboard a rocket ship and transport it eons away where it can >be detonated safely." A rather pat and rather silly dismissal of Delany's intentions in SIMPLGOS. Just remember: one case (or a hundred cases, for that matter) does not a consensus make. Now I'm just going to sit back and wait for the sweeping generalizations about 'mainstream critics' to start rolling in... :-) Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ Date: Wed 2 Oct 85 20:15:46-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Comments on Luc Sante' Disclaimer: I haven't yet read Luc Sante's review in full. Nor am I prepared to comment on his lengthy verbiage quoted in this forum, which seems encoded in a private jargon indecipherable without the full text. But facts are facts, and lies are lies. Here are some of both: QUOTE "Campbell was a tyrant who encouraged tyrannical views. His guidance bore fruit in the works of such writers as Robert Heinlein and L. Ron Hubbard. Heinlein's grandiose technocratic vision approaches fascism in works like _Starship Troopers_ (1959) and _Stranger in a Strange Land_ (1961), the latter once the bible of psychedelic zealotry and a major influence on Charles Manson. Hubbard, after producing acres of wordage for Campbell, tired of writing science fiction, and decided to live it, a decision that resulted in his pseudoscience, Dianetics, which had considerable impact on science fiction before mutating into the pseudoreligion Scientology." END QUOTE (1) Campbell was not a tyrant. In fact, he encouraged many kinds of experimentation in Astounding. This is attested by Heinlein (Expanded Universe) Asimov (Opus 100, Before The Golden Age) and many others. There were a couple of problems with his editorship: an unreasonable insistence on "human supremacy", which Asimov documents well, and an unreasonable urge to remove non-gratuitous sex, which seems to be attributable mostly to Kay Tarrant. (2) "Heinlein's grandiose technocratic vision" .. 'technocracy' means "the rule of the skilled", and I can't find that in most of Heinlein's major works. The issue of leadership (or, as an Englishman should say, kingship) is discussed in many of his novels, especially The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and I don't think they support that conclusion. Indeed, in many places, especially the juvenile stories (Space Family Stone, Have Space Suit, will Travel) he indicates his sympathies are the exact opposite: EVERYBODY should be as autonomous as possible; even incompetents have rights and should be given the chance to learn (or die) Of course, Mr Sante' may be using "technocratic" to mean "worshiping mechanisms and technology" - illiteracy among the literati knows no nadir. (3) "approaches fascism in Starship Troopers". Well that work is not a grandiose technocratic vision in any sense: the technology is the minimum necessary to sustain the plot, and the invisible rulers are neither technologists nor particularly efficient. Nor is it fascist: name one fascist state where military service was voluntary and where even volunteers could resign at almost any time (whenever not in actual combat) See Spider Robinson's article Rah Rah RAH in Destinies vol 2 no 3 for more. And, incidentally, what does all this have to do with Campbell? Unless the limp, yellowing object in my hand is an hallucination, "Starship Soldier" was published in The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction. [As for that common disease of the deracinated intellectual, whose main symptom is an habitual sneering at courage, valor, patriotism, and, above all, the profession of arms - Rudyard Kipling analysed it a century ago. It is still with us] (4) There is no technology in Stranger in a Strange Land. Even space travel is kept offstage. (5) "a major influence on Charles Manson". Well, bringing out the standard book on this subject (Vincent Bugelosi & Curt Gentry: Helter Skelter), I find no reference to Heinlein or any of his works. The main influences on Manson seem to have been Beatles lyrics and some Scientology notions - though even the latter is dubious: Manson's claims to have become a "beta clear" are unsubstantiated, and that certainly isn't (as he also claimed) the highest stage in Scientology (op cit, Penguin Books edition, pp 578..580) (6) [L Ron Hubbard] "tired of writing science fiction, and decided to live it". Even a cursory look at a Hubbard bibliography will refute that. Hubbard continued writing SF through his Dianetics period, and well into Scientology. Not to mention Battlefield Earth. Moreover, leaving aside some of the wilder claims of the OTO, most dispassionate observers conclude that Hubbard himself didn't try to "live" his cults. See, for instance, Stephen Annett (ed) The Many Ways of Being, Abacus, 1976. (7) Finally, Scientology is "a religious philosophy containing pastoral counselling procedures intended to assist an individual to attain Spiritual Freedom" in fact, a pseudo-religion. If a reviewer is so wrong about facts that can be checked, not in a reference library, but in a poorly-stocked home library, of what value are his opinions? Robert Firth PS: On re-reading the above, and scanning the archives, I feel I was wrong about the "non-gratuitous sex" stuff. For example, Poul Anderson's serials The Long Way Home and The Man Who Counts, both published in Astounding in the '50s, contain plot elements that involve "sex" in one way or another, and the latter especially makes a very tough point. ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: Excerpts from Harper's article on Science Fiction Date: 1 Oct 85 13:39:21 GMT dht@druri.UUCP (Davis Tucker) writes: >...[ED. NOTE: Acclaim is given to Wells, Stapleton, Cordwainer >Smith, Bester, Dick, and especially Ballard.] Thanks, Davis, for balancing the other poster's excerpts from this critique of the genre. After posting my flame against Sante, I decided it was only fair to go out and read the original article in its entirety. Sante DOES acknowledge that certain books written by the above authors are 'genuine literature' so he hardly dismisses the genre completely. Although I still believe his knee-jerk reaction against science and technology is wrongheaded, I retract my comments about his limited knowledge of the SF field. Sante knows his stuff. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 9 Oct 85 0952-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #397 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Oct 85 0952-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #397 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 9 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 397 Today's Topics: Administrivia - Welcome Back Bitnet People, Books - Aldiss & Brust & Forward & Zelazny (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (3 msgs) & Typos & Nepotism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 9 Oct 85 09:31:25 EDT From: Saul Subject: Welcome back Bitnet people Apparently for the past month, the people who reside on the bitnet have been unable to receive the digest. There is a long story behind this so I'll make it brief. This story is also a *lot* of guesswork as to what happened. At the beginning of September, Rutgers changed it host name to conform to the new domain name standards. WISCVM, the site we were using to get to bitnet, did not recognize the new name and began rejecting all mail from Rutgers. We did not become aware of this because we were not receiving any rejections or errors back from WISCVM. We were however, receiving mail *from* the people on Bitnet who were asking what happened to their favorite(?) digest. We attempted to contact the people at WISCVM but of course the mail failed and they never did anything to correct the problem which they, of course, were not aware of because nobody was complaining. (Sounds like a Catch-22 situation if I ever heard one). In any case, the problem has now been resolved. Unfortunately, these people have missed close to 50 digests. There is no way I can tie up the mailer at RUTGERS or WISCVM in order to remail the messages. I also understand that there is no way to use FTP from the bitnet. Anyone who has any suggestions or is willing to get the digest to these people, please let me know. Send suggestions to SF-LOVERS-REQUEST@RUTGERS. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 85 11:31:54 pdt From: Dennis Cottel Subject: HOTHOUSE by Brian Aldiss HOTHOUSE by Brian Aldiss, Baen Books, 1984 According to the introduction, HOTHOUSE first appeared as a serial in 1961 in F&SF, then was published in 1962 in an abridged American edition as THE LONG AFTERNOON OF EARTH. The setting is Earth in the far future. Tidal forces have stopped the planet's spin so that the same face is always towards the sun, and the sun is getting hotter as it evolves toward a red giant. The increased ultraviolet and thermal radiation have combined to create an environment in which the plant kingdom has run amuck, both genetically and physically. The few remaining members of the animal kingdom (including humans) are distant mutations of present-day versions, and are gradually being forced from their last ecological niches. The story follows members of a small group of "human" tree dwellers through a series of misadventures, and in the process, allows Aldiss to describe various strange adaptations of plants as they fill all the ecological positions formerly held by animals, birds, insects, and so on. Although the characters develop as the story progresses, for the most part they are simply carried along by events. The plot never really caught my interest. One problem with this story is that it presents itself as science fiction with attempts at scientific explanations for most of what is described. But I was never able to believe in the flying plants and other amazing plant adaptations. The environment is so hostile to the humans, that I felt it unlikely they could have survived beyond a few generations. There is also a particularly hard-to-swallow item having to do with the Moon. If imaginative descriptions of an essentially alien plant-infested world attract you, you may find HOTHOUSE interesting, or even fascinating. But I don't recommend it as a "good read." (Maybe it's Art! ;-) What have *you* read lately? Dennis Cottel Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego, CA 92152 (619) 225-2406 dennis@nosc.ARPA sdcsvax!noscvax!dennis ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258) Subject: Re: JHEREG by Stephen Brust Date: 30 Sep 85 21:58:18 GMT In his review of JHEREG by Stephen Brust Mark R. Leeper writes > In a world where magic works, a man who is basically a cheap > detective of the Sam Spade sort is given a single task not too > different from one he might be given in our world. Oh, come on! The guy was running a protection racket! He was a gangster and a part-time assassin. That was one of the interesting things about JHEREG -- a gangster/private eye in the world where magic works! > Brust has created a world where different rules work. > Characters who are killed may or may not come back, characters > teleport at will--there are a number of differences. But the > world is self-consistent and with some substitutions not really > very different from ours. Well, thanks for figuring *that* out! The world of JHEREG (and YENDI) is one of the most consistent systems ever to appear in fantasy/sf. It is a *very* well done system with *very* few loose ends. > Aside from the multiplicity of unfamiliar names--probably not > a drawback for most other readers--the story is fairly > well-written. I did, however, all too often come up confused as > to who was who in the book and because of that, did not enjoy the > book as much as I might have. Rate the book a +1 on the -4 to +4 > scale. Oh, poor you! I bet you put away Zelazny's "Lord of Light" after the first few pages. And how often do you read historical books? Especially the ones on times and lands quite remote. I am sure you've never read any of the Russian great writers -- because you couldn't remember the names and places... JHEREG does not sport an overwhelming cast of characters. Their names are easily remembered and pronunciation is given. Next time why don't you set up a list of names of characters you encounter in a book and who they are and just give them plain English names ( for your own benefit) like "Joe", "Pete", "One eyed pirate", " A paraplegic beggar", etc. and think of everything in those terms. you could do the same with places and cities : Boston, New York, Phili instead of the goblety-gook names the silly authors insist on. And as long as we are at it why not replace magic with something else. Like cabs instead of teleports... CPR instead of "raise dead" spell... If the story doesn't make any sense after all these transformations -- I guess it wasn't good enough to start with... Mark, my advise to you : quit sf/fantasy reading and concentrate on NY Times Top 10 bestseller list. They will not have all the strange names and masses of characters ( else how would they have *ever* made it into the top 10?). As far as my opinion on Steven Brust's writing : I think he is one of the finest new authors in fantasy/sf. JHEREG (and its sequel YENDI) are enjoyable reading. His "To Reign in Hell" was an excellent analysis of an old story and is a very pleasant book. ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258) Subject: Forward's The Flight Of The Dragonfly Date: 1 Oct 85 04:40:42 GMT Dave Opstad (Opstad.PA@Xerox.ARPA) writes about Forward's _The_Flight_Of_The_Dragonfly_ > ... This ... book gets my vote for best SF novel of the last > decade, by the way--it's been a long time since I've so > voraciously read a novel all the way through with such an inane > grin on my face...) In the "science" part of sf it was on of the best I've ever read. In the "fiction" part ( or shall we say "literature"?) it stunk. Sorry, I had to say it. Please send the flames to net.flames -- I don't read it! ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x258) Subject: Zelazny's Trumps of Doom Date: 1 Oct 85 04:26:53 GMT > > > I think that the blue cavern in which Merlin is imprisoned is > in fact the gemstone of a ring. Also Corwin is not dead, but > is masquerading as Bill, who knows far too much. > > -steve Possible. It could be located in the new set of Shadows that Corwin created. The gemstone is possible also; Zelazny used that in "Jack Of Shadows", though. And he usually doesn't repeat himself . Or am I missing something? ------------------------------ From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Trumps of Doom speculation (the Date: 3 Oct 85 17:26:00 GMT There is actually another Zelazny novel in which he uses the "main character imprisoned in a gem" trick. I refer to Jack Of Shadows in which Shadowjack is imprisioned in a gem that is a pendant around his main rival. I wonder if Merlyn will use the same trick to escape? chris Chris Kostanick decvax!vortex!ism780!ico!chris ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!ico!chris ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 1985 15:15:35-EDT (Sunday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Amber Here's a bit more fuel for the fire: Given that Luke/Rinaldo is Brand's son, when did he ever take the pattern (remember, whatever powers he has over shadow are dependent upon taking the pattern before they'll work)? He clearly couldn't have taken it during Nine Princes, Guns, or Unicorn since Brand was imprisoned and couldn't have brought him there in the first place. Now, after Brand was brought back, when did he have the chance to bring Rinaldo to Amber to take the pattern? And even if he did, why wasn't he helping his father afterward? Besides, the implication is that Rinaldo wasn't even around when all this was taking place, since he makes some comment to Merlin about being off in Shadow when Brand died. He could have come by the Black Road, but that would mean that he had some sort of deal with the Courts of Chaos, in which case why didn't Merlin know anything about him? Merlin did grow up there after all... And finally, if Rinaldo had taken the Pattern before "Nine Princes" why didn't he 1) Rescue his father, or at least try? or 2) help him out later? About Corwin's insanity: remember that Merlin said that the Lorgus drives one temporarily insane. Could Corwin have taken the Lorgus...? ------------------------------ Date: 6 Oct 1985 15:12:18-EDT (Sunday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: matter transmission/cloning etc For those who have never read Van Vogt's Null-A books, this may be a bit of a spoiler, but for those who have, Gilbert Gosseyn is killed early in the first book, but wakes up apparently in perfect health, on Venus. He remembers everything that happened to him up to the moment of his "death" and eventually concludes that he is the same person. Actually, all his memories were instantly transported into an exact copy of his body at the moment of his death. Effectively, however he is the same... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 85 17:32:30 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: re: matter transmission To: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU >From: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU >my impression increasingly is that the other side of the argument >is imaging that my soul will magically fly to the duplicate and >make that hunk of matter "me" rather than a mere copy, however >identical. My opinion is that the 'soul' is simply an emergent phenomenon, arising from the structure of the matter inside a person. Duplicate the matter and you duplicate the 'soul'. I do not think that the existing soul will go into the copy, but that a copy of it will, and this copy will be just as real as the original, i.e. both copies will think they are you, and both will be right. The real question is what makes you you. It can't be being the precise same matter as you are right now, as that does get replaced with time. It can't be being in the same place you are now, since you move around. It can't be there being only one of you, because you object to matter transmission as well as duplication. All I can figure is that it is non- continuity of position, i.e. if you move from one place to another you must exist as you in all intermediate points. Is this your position? If not, please tell me what is. If it is, please tell me how you justify it. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: codas!mikel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mikel Manitius) Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc. Date: 5 Oct 85 20:54:56 GMT > The matter transmission might destroy a soul if we had one. What > are the characteristics of the soul, if one exists? > Consider what matter transmission could do for surgery: > load someone into memory and just edit them, removing cancers and > such. Maybe even take out the brain of a youthful backup and > substitute the one of the aging current one, and PRESTO! instant > youth. Is someone legally dead when they only exist on magnetic > tape or whatever we use for storing them? Suppose there's a > glitch in the tape when you're restored, heavens forbid.... > Think of what could be possible for transporation: > assuming the ability to digitise someone and recreate them later, > it might be able to post a copy of yourself to net.net-people and > be created for a conversation. Or famines and droughts: take the > digitisation of several acre-feet of water and just supply the > energy from a nuclear power plant and create water or food! > There's a lot more than souls in danger here- transporation, > factories, and much more would be made completely obscelescent... > Carl Greenberg What everyone seems to be forgeting here, is that, as you may be able to digitise the atomical structure of a living organism, how are you going to digitise the information it contains, namely the "energy" within it. What I'm getting at, is that you may very well be able to re-create the physical body of the organism, but how are you going to restore the "life" within it? Imagine that you can digitise a computer, in order to restore it exactly to the point it was at which you digitised it, you must also store the information in it's memory, this is not matter, it is energy. The problem comes when you try to restore all of the processes running in the computer that you had when you started, and make it all continue. Now go back and solve the problem of digitising atomic information, or earth's orbit around saturn for that matter! Mikel Manitius AT&T (305) 8692462 RNX: 755 Information Systems ...{akguc|ihnp4}!codas!mikel SDSS Regional Support ...attmail!mmanitius Altamonte Springs, FL ------------------------------ From: ames!barry@topaz.rutgers.edu (Kenn Barry) Subject: Re: A real lulu of a typo... Date: 4 Oct 85 22:08:24 GMT > From: Peter G. Trei > Can anyone think of another cover typo so careless? This is > definitely the worst I have ever seen. Not on the cover, but at least as significant: the SF Book Club edition of THE MOTE IN GOD'S EYE has a typo changing the sentence, "the children should have been spaced" (ie, out the airlock), to "the children should have been spared", thus reversing the meaning 180 degrees. When I got my copy signed, Niven also corrected the typo. What is worse for an author, than to have a typo actually alter the meaning of his story? Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ELECTRIC AVENUE: {ihnp4,vortex,dual,nsc,hao,hplabs}!ames!barry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 85 17:20:02 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Joan Vinge To: Lubkin David@LLL-MFE.ARPA >From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >Jim Frenkel, publisher of Bluejay Books (and married to Joan Vinge) I thought Joan Vinge was married to Vernor Vinge. Were they divorced? ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Oct 85 1013-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #398 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 9 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 398 Today's Topics: Books - LeGuin & Niven, Films - The Time Machine, Radio - Doc Savage, Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) & The New Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: ORSINIAN TALES, by Ursula LeGuin Date: 6 Oct 85 18:45:52 GMT ORSINIAN TALES by Ursula K. LeGuin book review by Davis Tucker Despite its cover, and despite the publisher's blurb, this is *not* a science-fiction *or* fantasy collection. The tales are of Hungary, and Hungarians, and it seems that the only reason why "Orsinia" is mentioned at all is to fool the unsuspecting science-fiction fan who refuses to read anything else (What can I say? Fooled me into buying it, too). But be that as it may, this is a truly excellent collection, crafted with a fine eye to the nuances and subtleties that define "well-written", as opposed to what often passes for it these days. These short stories are set in various times in the history of Hungary, from the Dark Ages to modern times, and are exquisitely crafted gems that bring to mind great Russian literature by such short-story geniuses as Gorky, Chekhov, the early Tolstoy, and especially Turgenev. The Slavic touch is omnipresent; the characters breathe their lives and break their hearts in a stew of environment, a rich sea of detail and description. These stories, singly and collectively, rank very high on my list of great short literature. What LeGuin accomplishes is nothing new, nothing astounding in and of itself, no breakthrough in technique, no earth-shattering ideas. She has confined herself to the small dilemmas and monstrous defeats and sacrifices that all of us face; she has limited herself to describing humdrum situations, everyday affairs of the heart. The reader is not immediately catapulted into the glittering world of high fashion, drugs, and international intrigue, nor thrust into a crippled starship or a supernatural child's mind. The world of "Orsinian Tales" is small, circumscribed, each story shares the same general location of towns and countryside. It is a world, though it may be Hungary, that we have all known in some form. Maybe not so poor, maybe not so rich, but the characters that people her book are ourselves and those around us. Though it is unfortunately misused, "sublime" is the only word that can be used to describe the beautiful quality of LeGuin's prose. She writes with an economy that speaks pages more than any elaboration. Afternoon light shines through a window just so; a dress is worn exactly; a lamp is broken, an accident that brings two pained people together across years of loneliness. There are very few wasted words in "Orsinian Tales". What needs to be said is said, and what needs to be left unspoken, what cannot be explained, is left between the lines. She evokes more with a simple ten-word sentence than can be imagined - reverberations of meanings from pages before, sometimes from a previous story, immediately spring to mind and flesh out the picture she paints. There are layers and layers of meaning in these stories; I don't pretend to understand them all, but just knowing they are there provokes the reader into further study and a greater appreciation. What is so wonderful about this collection is its depth and breadth of understanding of basic human situations and relationships. There are no great kings, there are no wild geniuses, there are no insane villains. There are quarrymen, and students, farmers and housewives. Nothing awesome occurs, but it is precisely in this presentation of the mundane that LeGuin brings the reader to a deeper understanding of what happens in our own lives, as well as those of others. She has made the difficult simple, and the heart rending easier to take. At no point are simplistic solutions and plot resolutions offered. Men grow old and die, broken by a hard world, they fall in love and lose their love, women sparkle and laugh in their girlhood and take on the cares of the world later, bearing the burden of their children's misfortunes and mistakes. "Orsinian Tales" is not a depressing or dull work. The inevitabilities of life are not put forth as quietly desperate and terrible truths. They are merely facts, facts which various people deal with in various ways. To say that these tales are either hopeful or full of hopelessness is to miss the point - to LeGuin, living is walking the fine line between both, sometimes in despair, sometimes in love. There is no overwhelming tone of depression, as with many of Dostoevsky's works. There is no underlying symbolism which twists the facts of a situation into a totally different setting, as is the case with Gabriel Garcia Marquez. It is the simplicity of her presentation that will make some of these stories seem shallow; but a second reading will reveal a surprising depth. It's not that the reader has to work to understand any given tale; they are very basic stories, ones we have all heard before. The reader does have to put forth effort to see that it is exactly such simplicity that reveals a greater meaning. It is difficult to stress how exceptional this collection is, and how moving are its stories. After reading it, you will feel as if your eyes have been opened to what has always been obvious, like coming out of a dark building into the sun. There isn't anything "new" here; there doesn't need to be. What is presented is our own lives in the lives of others, illuminating the majesty of the regular world. The world is reflected as it is, wonderful but not strange, beautiful but not glamorous, familiar but not dull. ------------------------------ Subject: The Ringworld Polar Projection Maps From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1985 10:04 EDT There has been considerable debate in SF-LOVERS about the fate of the Protectors from the Home colony. Although I'm not sure that was ever resolved, (I certainly hope not), a spin off of that debate seems to concern the polar projection maps in the Great Ocean (one of) of the Ringworld. Larry Niven does seem to have a penchant (intentional or not) to write stories that inspire debate. The maps on the Ringworld may be his attempt to get back at us for being so interested (picayune?) concerning the detail of his works. These maps certainly provide a challenge to any who attempt to unearth a rationale for their existence, or for that matter, the existence of the Ringworld itself. Almost certainly the Ringworld was built by Pak and NOT the human variant of the Home colony, as some had suggested during the earlier aforementioned discussion. The time line isn't right for it to be any other way. I suspect, and I'd have to reread the timeline in Known Space, that about the time Phssthpok was entering the Sol system, the Puppeteers were greedily seeding Ringworld with the superconductor pathogen, (give or take a thousand years). Chmee, I believe, was right when he deduced the Ringworld was hundreds of thousands of years old when he, Louis, et. al. got there. I do believe Chmee was right but not necessarily for the same reason. Chmee thought that there had been too much evolution and mutation of the original 'human' stock for the Ringworld to have been anything but ancient. An important fact to remember here is that the Ringworld is mobile. The Ringworld's sun could be flared by manipuating the magnetic effects of portions of the Ringworld 'scrith'. The sun would move and the Ringworld's attitude jets would chug furiously to keep up. Someone will probably be delighted to calculate what it's maximum speed and acceleration might be, but I suggest that both would be sufficient to be able to escape the core explosion. I advance the theory that the Ringworld is some giantic Noah's Ark. It was built near the core world of Pak by breederless Protectors who had staved off death by starvation by generalizing their protective instincts to generic Pak and, yes, even non-Pak species. The building of the Ringworld, sans maps, would be easy to figure. The Pak protectors fought continual planet wide wars. If They were going to build something to escape the destruction of their home world, it would be reasonable to build something big enough to allow room for each Protector, and it's breeders. Their technology would probably make quantum leaps forward because, with room, they wouldn't fight as much. The maps however, tend to discredit a Ringworld 'by Pak and for Pak' theory, as the maps would serve no function for a Pak, and they do not build a functionless artifacts. I believe that the Ringworld has been traveling hither and yon throughout the galaxy for quite some time. During that time the Pak have collected species and built replicas of the species home planets. The divergent life of the Ringworld is not so much a function of evolution and mutation, as Chmee deduced, but that in concert with specie variation from planet to planet. It may well be that the species were really much different but that the Ringworld environment favors a human form, (since the Pak built it), and the various inhabitants have been evolving toward the human form since placed on the Ringworld. I'm sure there are arguements that conflict with this scenario. It would, admittedly, be quite an altruistic leap forward for a Pak to care about saving any specie other than Pak breeders. However, the Pak had obviously intended to keep Kzinti, and Grogs on the Ringworld or they wouldn't have created the Kzin and Gummidgy maps. The Ringworld must have been created to flee the core explosion, because there would be little reason to make such a structure mobile. Ah well, signing off for now. Jim White ------------------------------ Date: Sun 6 Oct 85 19:39:37-PDT From: Stuart Cracraft Subject: comment on "The Time Machine" Brett Slocum commented on "The Time Machine" starring Rod Steiger. Actually, it starred Rod Taylor, a completely different type of leading man. Steiger is more of a character actor, quite talented of course. I wouldn't write in on such a small item except that it was the top of my film favorites back in the 60's. Sadly, George Pal, who directed it died a few years ago. While Meyer's "Time after Time" was good, there's *no* way I would put it in a class with "The Time Machine." Well, they are really two different types of movie aren't they? The first is humorous and the second tries to be more realistic. Difficult to compare. Stuart ------------------------------ Subject: Doc Savage on NPR Date: Mon, 7 Oct 85 14:41:47 EDT From: Charles Martin This morning I heard an blurb for a "Doc Savage" radio adventure show, to be broadcast at 4pm today (Monday) on National Public Radio. Probably a weekly occurance. Doc did the advertisement; sounds like a good voice. Old time radio fans, take note!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon 7 Oct 85 10:49:18-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Old Pa and other Amazing Stories Well, Amazing Stories was fun this week: we're all the way up to the 40s in terms of the SF they're using. Oh boy! "Star Attraction" was predictable, ruined by the title and the commercials, and derogatory to nurdly women. Personally, I thought the kid was saying "Opa," instead of "Old Pa." Opa is German "kid-talk" for "grandfather," and it warmed my heart to at least 198K to hear used what I call my grandfather. "Old Pa?" Pfeh! wz ------------------------------ From: cbdkc1!gwe@topaz.rutgers.edu ( George Erhart ) Subject: Amazing Stories (10/6 episode) Date: 7 Oct 85 15:37:35 GMT I have read a few initial reactions to this episode, and I must agree that it was close to the level of an MTV music video. BUT, I thought it was great light humor. I really thought the scene with the lockers was great. (By the way, good humor almost always offends someone.) George Erhart at AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus, Ohio 614-860-4021 {ihnp4,cbosgd}!cbdkc1!gwe ------------------------------ Date: Mon 7 Oct 85 09:02:32-PDT From: Bill Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #393 I caught the new Twilight Zone program this Friday evening. I thought the three stories were excellent, and the best SF & F TV show since "The Lathe of Heaven." For those of you who missed this episode a very brief description of each story follows: (1) What would you do if the language you speak slowly changed for everyone but you? Did you feed you new encyclopedia today, and make sure you take your friend out for dinosaur... (2) A nice variation on the theme of dreaming and reality. Did I dream I was a butterfly or am I a butterfly dreaming I am a human? (3) The third was the weakest and longest of the three. It attempts to be somewhat "cosmic" and falls short here. Why would an alien hitch-hiking on the space shuttle want to hang around good old Earth anyhow? And, if you could leave and explore the Universe wound up in this creatures consciousness, would you go along for the trip or remain a research scientist at NASA. I personally prefer a good pint of ale. Bill PS>The most recent episode of Alfred Hitchcock presents was TOO predictable, and really rather dumb. ------------------------------ From: codas!mikel@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mikel Manitius) Subject: Re: Who are you? Date: 5 Oct 85 21:09:32 GMT >> From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >> assume it works on life though. Creatures notice no ill effects >> and people feel continuous through the process. >> >> What we have here is a way of spawning processes... this >> template will feel like they are the original, except that they >> should know they are copies from a discontinuity in the >> surroundings. There is ... I wonder about their first words. >> Would they all say the same thing after walking out of the >> machine? Would it be the same thing the original said? How >> quickly would they pick up on the fact they were not the >> original? >> >> What if there are a bunch of you walking around? How do you >> identify the original?... decide who got to live again? Popular >> vote? Elvis Lives? >> >> The point I'm trying to make, I guess, is that cheating death may >> be fun, but Actually, if the machine is perfect (which in itself is another problem...), then they are all the originals, if they are truly atomically identical, they will probably all be thinking and doing the same things. Although, I have an idea that what you do is much influenced by your enviornment, and time itself. Therefore, since more than one copy of the human, cannot occupy the same space at the same time, I would venture to say that they could not think the same thing at the same time (with the possible exceptions), however, their thought patterns wwould be identical, and if one did something for a reason, you could be sure that the other would do the same. This would probably change as each copy had it's own experiences and developed a different character. I also think that each copy would perceive itself as the original, imagine yourself, how do you know that you are not a copy of yourself? Weather or not they could understand that they are copies, would depend on the intelligence of the original to begin with. Mikel Manitius AT&T (305) 869-2462 RNX: 755 Information Systems ...{akguc|ihnp4}!codas!mikel SDSS Regional Support ...attmail!mmanitius Altamonte Springs, FL ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Oct 85 1041-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #399 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 9 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 399 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & DeLint & McKinley & Tolkien & Some Story Suggestions (2 msgs) & End of the World Stories, Television - SF on TV, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (2 msgs) & Writers as Instructors ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: Excerpt: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov, in F&SF Date: 8 Oct 85 02:16:12 GMT EXCERPT FROM: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, 36th Anniversary Issue - OCT '85 My beautiful, blond-haired, blue-eyed daughter, Robyn, who is now on the job as a psychiatric social worker, got together with her lovely co-worker the other day and decided to compose a fiery memo denouncing some practice or another they considered heinous. They got paper and pens (the easy part) and then started brooding over the wording. Minutes passed, and nothing came to them except a dozen false starts. Finally, Robyn, throwing down her pen in exasperation, said, "Do you believe I'm my father's daughter?" When she told me the story that night, I laughed, for when she was a little girl, there was a widespread disbelief over that very matter. Since Robyn's mother was, in this matter, completely above suspicion (either by me or any- one else), the general theory was that Robyn had been accidentally switched in the hospital with my true offspring. (Actually, I know that is not true for Robyn has, with time, developed unmistakable Asimovian features and, if it is possible for a gorgeous woman to look like me, she does). Nevertheless, friends of mine staring at a little girl with blonde hair who looked precisely like the John Tenniel illustrations of Alice in "Alice in Wonderland" (she was asked to play the role, at sight, in her grammar school) and then looking at me with a certain shudder of revulsion, would say "Are you sure you weren't given the wrong child at the hospital?" At which I would invariably put my arms around her protectively, and say "Who cares? I'm keeping this one." I told Robyn of this when we talked about the unwritten memo and said that, listening to all the comments of this sort, she was in a good position to make much of the very common fantasy of children that their parents were not really their parents and that the children were, instead, the kidnapped offspring of royalty. "Never!" said Robyn, forcefully. "Never! Not for one moment at any time did I ever doubt that you and Mamma were my parents." Which pleases me. Both Robyn and I have a strong sense of duty. I would dis- charge my paternal obligations punctiliously even if I didn't particularly like her, and she would be equally punctilious, I am quite certain, about being filial under such circumstances. However, there is a tight bond of affection between the two of us which makes all that duty an unbelievable pleasure. And the same, I can't help thinking, goes for these essays. Having agreed to provide the Noble Editor with one essay an issue, I would certainly perform that chore dutifully even if it proved to be a royal pain in the whatever. However, I enjoy the process so much that I keep it up month after month with a light laugh on my lips. In fact, if I have difficulty, it lies in confining myself to doing merely twelve a year. [Followed by a long and very good essay on the scientific history of the discovery of yeast and enzymes.] Well, where should one start? With the simple truth that the great Dr. A doesn't know jack about commas, and uses them in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or with his smug, egocentric male chauvinism toward his daughter, her "lovely co-worker", and his wife, whom he refuses to name? How about some- thing more substantive - like why in the hell is this vignette included in a science history article about the discovery of yeast? What does his con- descension toward his beautiful daughter and his resultant foul aspersions on her parentage have anything whatsoever to do with anything that any human being besides an Asimov worshiper would want to know? I mean, "unmistakable Asimovian features" my left hand of darkness! Does anyone you know talk about his daughters "Jacksonian features" or "Alberryesque features" or "Rospachian features"? How many people do you know who would refer to their daughters in print as "gorgeous women"? How many writers have you ever read that would say "she was asked to play the role, at sight, in her grammar school...", and totally forget that there is no such construct as "at sight" (it is correctly "at first sight")? More questions - how does even the demigod of science fiction, the master of prolix spew, get away without having this kind of ridiculous, embarrassing drivel of a father slobbering over the fact that he actually raised a daughter that ended up looking good and going into some sort of social worker program (that he not-so-subtly hints at being amusingly disapproving of) edited out of his otherwise good and informative article? Why does he think that anyone in his right mind or even his left mind would find what he has to say about his daughter, her adorable liberal tendencies and her Aryan makeup, in any way germane to his article about yeast, or even to the more global, meta- fictional point of essay-writing? I just don't get it. Could somebody clue me in? Davis Tucker ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 85 18:36 PDT From: Fournier.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Canadian SF Writers ...and let's not forget Charles deLint, who I must assume is Canadian, due to his subject matter. His new book, MULENGRO, is a murder mystery about Canadian Gypsys. Marina Fournier Arpa: ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Books by Robin McKinley Date: 4 Oct 85 23:53:25 GMT Another really good Robin McKinley is _The Door in the Hedge_, a collection of four fairy tales. They are retellings of classic tales, as perfect as one could want, fit for reading oneself or to your children (should you have any conveniently lying about). Charley Wingate ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 09:00:49 edt From: Carol Morrison Subject: RE: Hobbit height Are you in luck. I'm reading The Hobbit to my kid, and we just covered that territory a couple of days ago. I quote from page 10 of my library's edition: "I suppose hobbits need some description nowadays, since they have become rare and shy of the Big People, as they call us. They are (or were) a little people, about half our height, and smaller than the bearded dwarves." ------------------------------ Date: Tue 8 Oct 85 00:31:53-EDT From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: re: The Man who was a Jazz Band Morris Keesan has a good memory. "Double, Double, Toil and Trouble" (Holley Cantine, 1959) is indeed in Judith Merril's 6th Annual Edition (The Year's Best S-F, 1961). They reprinted it from "The Best from Fantasy And Science Fiction, Tenth Series". Now that everyone has read the two books that I mentioned Friday (you all did, didn't you?), your next assignments are: "A For Anything" or "The People Maker" (Damon Knight, 1959). The classic work about the social impact of a duplicating machine. (In a word, slavery.) "The Eternity Brigade" (Stephen Goldin, 1980). The logical extension of Knight's ideas into the realm of interstellar armies. It started small... with cryogenics ... but as in Haldeman's "The Forever War", the soldiers soon found that they had no way out ... Don Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 08:49 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Concerning personal duplication I just read a story in the latest Best of Omni #n called Number 13. It relates to the matter transmission/ duplication disscussion that has been occuring. The story concerns a colony ship that is looking for a habitable planet. Of course, someone must be woken up to decide if it is worth landing on. The guy who is woken up has been grown from a template of the original and if he decides to abort the landing, he has to grow old and die waiting for the next planet while they grow a new version of him. Needless to say he gains some insight into himself from the log because he is Number 13. It's a good story and presents another view of this whole original versus duplicate thought patterns idea we have been bouncing around. I recommend it. The book also contains other good stories from the pages of Omni, including Rutvarra's Case (sp) by Philip K Dick and Amanda and the Alien by Robert Silverburg and A Teardrop Falls by Larry Niven and a mess of other stories. Joe Bob says check it out. Jon ------------------------------ From: genie!sonja@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sonja Bock) Subject: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 7 Oct 85 23:50:21 GMT In answer to the fellow who asked for an After-The-End anthology. The after-doomsday theme is one that has been handled often in both sci-fi and mainstream literature. Taking the 'man in the rubble' description loosely, here is a list of those that come most easily to mind. By the Waters of Babylon, S. Vincent Binet. Short story. A Canticle for Liebowitz. Walter H. Miller. Probably the closest thing to a classic of this genre. Damnation Alley. Zelazny (or perhaps Silverberg, I forget which). Pretty road-warriorish. Riddly Walker. Russel Hoban. Once you get past the new language, it's very good. Nightwings. Silverberg. Way after the end, caused by invasion of aliens. Tom O'Bedlam. Silverberg. Still in hardback. Mysticism and mutation. God's Grace. Bernard Malamud. The last primates on Earth are a Jew and his chimp. The Stand. Stephan King. The end is caused by a mutated virus rather than nuclear war. Where Late the Sweet Bird Sang. Kate Wilhelm. Galapagos. Kurt Vonnegut. Still in hardback. Lucifer's Hammer. Niven/Pournelle. End caused by falling meteor/asteroid. The Wild Shore. Kim Stanley Robinson. In the Drift. Michael Swanwick. Radix. New Paperback. Perhaps a classic. Forget the author. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 85 15:42 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: SF on TV Junk TV? Is this what we are watching? Is there any social redeeming value in the Twilight Zone, Amazing Stories, or Alfred Hitchcock Presents? And what about the Misfits of Science? I won't answer these questions, but I will ramble on a bit about why I think the arrows are hitting close to the mark. While the Twilight Zone's first episode's opener was a treatise on a man bettering himself (or being replaced by his better half), the second story was merely a rehash on an old theme of stopping the clock and being unable to start it up again. Neither story told us much about people, and neither gave us any insight into how we could better the world. Now, I'm not saying that every story must have a moral, but it is much more enjoyable to me to have some way of relating to a story. The first TZ was good because it told of the struggle between good and bad that goes on within a person. That sort of thing happens to all of us. The second had no such connection. The second episode of TZ had three stories, but fit into two categories. The first two were completely off the wall, I don't belong here and can't cope scenarios. Once again, these provide little insight into how these people dealt with the problem. Not so with the third story. The scientists are trying to understand something outside of their understanding, and must come to grips with a shapechanging monster that can absorb people. They have two questions to deal with, is it a monster, and can they stop it? They find that they cannot and it does not kill anyone else. It turns out to be a creature very much like ourselves, curious about the universe. So far, I say that TZ is batting 40%. On TV that is pretty good. I think Amazing Stories is doing a bit better at 50%. This means little with so few cases though. The first episode was too predictable and had nothing to learn from. It was merely a repeat of a comic book we had all read before. The second episode had much more to offer. If only to demonstrate the popular law that if you are nasty, you'll get yours. It also had humor and an ending that wasn't foretold from the start of the show (although it could be anticipated). One for two isn't bad for TV. And I think it may be universal, but Alfred is batting 1000! Good stuff. The previews even helped to fool us. "A lovesick nurse" indeed! We kept saying, "She can't be that stupid!" all through the show, but were we surprised. A bit incredulous. After all, would they let the cop's wife take care of her husband's killer? I think not, but that helped add to the surprise element. As for the Misfits of Science all I can say is that I liked Flag and Ferretface together as the bad guys, but the show lacked a sense of reality. It was all too hokey to even suspend disbelief. Perhaps it needs the Batman/A Team outlook, i.e. complete camp. We'll see, but if it is going to compete with the Twilight Zone, it will need some strong scripts and not the old formulae. These views are on their own as soon as you read them. I do not claim any responsibility for your interpretation of them or the opinions they may proclaim. Thank you and good night. Jon ------------------------------ From: h-sc1!moews_b@topaz.rutgers.edu (david moews) Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc. Date: 7 Oct 85 22:54:03 GMT > Imagine that you can digitise a computer, in order to restore it > exactly to the point it was at which you digitised it, you must > also store the information in it's memory, this is not matter, it > is energy. The problem comes when you try to restore all of the > processes running in the computer that you had when you started, > and make it all continue. But...computers store data by moving around electrons, so the data in a computer's memory *is* included in the structure of the "matter" in the computer. If all the electron positions were recorded correctly, the computer would presumably continue running with no problems. Anyway, it's not clear that the matter vs. energy distinction is really relevant at this level (one might view a photon as a material particle instead of an energy packet), so matter transmitters will have to scan all the mass/energy in an object (somehow) before reproducing it. David Moews ...!harvard!h-sc4!moews moews%h-sc4@harvard.arpa ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc. Date: 8 Oct 85 08:16:26 GMT > Imagine that you can digitise a computer, in order to restore it > exactly to the point it was at which you digitised it, you must > also store the information in it's memory, this is not matter, it > is energy. Ah! But all you need do to `remember' the state of a memory chip is to record not only the positions of all those electrons, but their velocity as well! :-) Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Subject: Alma Maters Date: 06 Oct 85 15:17:43 PDT (Sun) From: Dave Godwin In a non-sf light, the Beach Boys went to the same high school as I did. The song 'Be True to Your School' holds a bit of special meaning to all us Hawthorne High graduates. As regards current stuff, Dr. Greg Benford teaches right here at UCI. I've sat in on a couple of his lectures. I can gladly report that his lecturing technique is far better than his writing. Are there any UCSD or USD people reading this ? If so, tell us all what Dr. David Brin is like as an instructor as opposed to as a writer. Dave Godwin University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 85 0925-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #400 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 11 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 400?! Today's Topics: Books - Campbell & Ellison & Farmer & Koontz & LeGuin & Tolkien (3 msgs), Radio - Doc Savage, Television - The New Season, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (3 msgs) & SF-LOVERS & Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE DOLL WHO ATE HIS MOTHER by R. Campbell Date: 9 Oct 85 23:55:07 GMT THE DOLL WHO ATE HIS MOTHER by Ramsey Campbell Tor, 1985 A book review by Mark R. Leeper Ramsey Campbell is a popular British horror story writer and editor. He has become a very familiar name in horror circles for such a young man. He was born in 1946 and has been publishing stories for 23 years. As with most horror writers, I'd never read anything by him until recently. THE DOLL WHO ATE HIS MOTHER is every bit as grim a horror novel as the title indicates. [*minor spoiler alert*] The story (which rumor has it has been banned in Britain) concerns a pretty vicious young man who not only enjoys killing for fun in all sorts of creative ways, he also likes to eat his victims. There is just enough of a supernatural bent to the story to make it fantasy instead of simply a gruesome murder mystery, but not enough to make it really worthwhile as a supernatural horror story. Some of Campbell's prose is crisp and sharp, yet other chapters I thought were really hard reading. When things really start happening the prose becomes so terse that I found I had to read some scenes two or three times before I could piece together exactly what was happening. Other places he has whole chapters that do very little to advance the story. THE DOLL WHO ATE HIS MOTHER is not a very creative horror story, but it is told in crisp tones of black and white, much like the cover of the Tor Books edition. The story is cold and grim. The characters are pretty flat and uninteresting. But it does tell a story of moderate suspense. On the scale of -4 to +4 it probably should get a non-committal +1. ------------------------------ From: tomczak@harvard.ARPA (Bill Tomczak) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 9 Oct 85 01:26:14 GMT One of my favorites in the 'apocalypse' vein is Harlan Ellison's _I have no Mouth and I Must Scream_ in the anthology by the same name (he also wrote _a Boy and his dog_ which you can find in the _The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World_ anthology.) Bill Tomczak@harvard.harvard.edu ------------------------------ From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Colonel'K) Subject: Re: reincarnation Date: 8 Oct 85 20:26:03 GMT How could a discussion about reincarnation and duplication go very far without mentioning the Riverworld series by Farmer? Scott J. Berry ihnp4!hou2g!scott ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: NIGHTMARE JOURNEY by Dean R. Koontz Date: 7 Oct 85 02:49:52 GMT The jacket reads: "One hundred thousand years in the future, after man has been fatally humbled by his exploration of the stars and discovery of far more intelligent beings, civilization is struggling to return to the planet's surface. After man fled the stars, he tried to explore his own genetic frontier, creating horrible races of deformed beings--some scaled, some furred, tiny, winged, and huge. Now Jask, a Pure who retains the original human genetic code, and Tedesco, a great bear with a human mind, are thrown together by their one shared and fatal trait--telepathy. Hunted like animals by the fearful populace, they go in search of The Black Presence-- which may be the key to mankind's place in the cosmos." The jacket is fairly accurate about the story. The author divides his time between Jask learning how to rethink his views on the world (and, in particular, about non-Pure creatures), and adventures on the way to The Black Presence. The story is fairly interesting, but not enough time is spent on any one thing to grab the reader. About half way through the book Jask and Tedesco meet other espers, and the reader's identification with and interest in the characters is diluted further. Still, it was an interesting two hours of reading, and I give the book 3 stars (good). By the way, the book's not new. The copyright is 1975. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: ORSINIAN TALES by Ursula K. LeGuin Date: 9 Oct 85 10:24:32 GMT > From: druri!dht (Davis Tucker) > Despite its cover, and despite the publisher's blurb, this is > *not* a science-fiction *or* fantasy collection. The tales are of > Hungary, and Hungarians, and it seems that the only reason why > "Orsinia" is mentioned at all is to fool the unsuspecting > science-fiction fan who refuses to read anything else Or perhaps it's because everyone knows that LeGuin is a science fiction writer, and thus anything she writes must be science fiction. (Add one large dollop of sarcasm.) I have to agree with your assessment of ORSINIAN TALES, and I feel obliged to point out a related novel of hers, MALAFRENA, that should also be to your liking (though I didn't enjoy it quite as much as ORSINIAN TALES). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: perhaps a silly (or dead) question... Date: 8 Oct 85 10:15:46 GMT Since no one else has undertaken to answer this question, I shall do so. dorettas@iddic.UUCP (Doretta Schrock) asks: > How tall is a Hobbit??? Here is the answer, right from the source---the Prologue to TLotR, by Mr. Tolkien himself. I have taken the liberty of extracting only the relevant paragraph: For they are a little people, smaller than Dwarves: less stout and stocky, that is, even when they are not actually much shorter. Their height is variable, ranging between two and four feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller. According to the Red Book, Bandobras Took (Bullroarer), son of Isengrim the Second, was four foot five and able to ride a horse. He was surpassed in all Hobbit records only by two famous characters of old; but that curious matter is dealt with in this book. The two famous characters were, of course, none other than Meriadoc Brandybuck and Peregrin Took. If you wish to know more, read the Prologue yourself; or have a chat with your friendly neighbourhood Elf, if you can find him---we have become rather scarce. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 23:17:43 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Hobbit height To: iddic!dorettas@topaz.ARPA (Doretta Schrock) >iddic!dorettas@topaz.arpa (Doretta Schrock): > I believe Tolkein described them as looking like 10-year olds to > the men of Gondor, Don't forget that the men of Gondor dealt primarily with Merry and Pippin after the two had spent some time with the ents. They were described several (many?) as being very tall for hobbits after their adventures with Treebeard and company (a result of their drinking entdraught). Remember how Sam reacted when he first saw them on the field of Cormallen? He mistook them for boys, until he recognized their faces. Doesn't _The_Hobbit_ have a good description? I don't have my copy with me right now.... William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ From: columbia!ji@topaz.rutgers.edu (ji) Subject: Re: perhaps a silly (or dead) question... Date: 9 Oct 85 01:53:24 GMT > How tall is a Hobbit??? I don't have the books with me, but I'm pretty sure that you can figure it from the illustrations. My idea is somewhat like 120cm (4ft). BTW, the name is Tolkien. ARPA: IOANNIDIS@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA UUCP: ...!seismo!columbia!ji ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 9 Oct 1985 03:31:25-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.ARPA (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Doc Savage on NPR > From: Charles Martin > This morning I heard an blurb for a "Doc Savage" radio adventure > show, to be broadcast at 4pm today (Monday) on National Public > Radio. Probably a weekly occurance. Doc did the advertisement; > sounds like a good voice. This past July, at Pulpcon, I heard a couple of episodes of the first serial, an adaptation of FEAR CAY. I didn't care for *all* of the voices, but most of them were quite good, and the adaptation was well-done. And I'm not even much of a radio-drama fan (though I am a Doc fan). Following FEAR CAY should be an adaptation of THE THOUSAND-HEADED MAN. It will depend on how well these two serials do as to whether there will be any more. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@topaz.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Old Pa and other Amazing Stories Date: 9 Oct 85 20:18:03 GMT > Well, Amazing Stories was fun this week: we're all the way up to > the 40s in terms of the SF they're using. Oh boy! "Star > Attraction" was predictable, ruined by the title and the > commercials, and derogatory to nurdly women. I give AMAZING STORIES one more week to be something other than HO-HUM STORIES before I give up on it entirely. (BTW, it was "The Main Attraction", not "Star Attraction".) On the other hand, I really like THE TWILIGHT ZONE, now the first TV show to be "filmed on location in space" (as HARDWARE WARS would say). Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!jbs@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jeff Siegal) Subject: Re: matter transmission, etc. Date: 8 Oct 85 20:31:25 GMT moews_b@h-sc1.UUCP (david moews) writes: > But...computers store data by moving around electrons, so the >data in a computer's memory *is* included in the structure of the >"matter" in the computer. If all the electron positions were >recorded correctly, the computer would presumably continue running >with no problems. Anyway, it's not clear that the matter vs. >energy distinction is really relevant at this level (one might view >a photon as a material particle instead of an energy packet), so >matter transmitters will have to scan all the mass/energy in an >object (somehow) before reproducing it. Wrong! The position of an electron is NOT sufficient information to reproduce the state of the object (be it a computer memory, human mind, or whatever). The momentium of the electron is an independent quantity which must be measured and reproduced. Now, here is the relevant point: Modern quantum mechanics tells us that the lower limit for the product of the uncertainty obtained when measuring the position of an electon and its momentium is h, Plank's constant. So, it appears this is the end of the line for matter transmission....(unless...:-)) Jeff Siegal - MIT EECS ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 02:19:27 PDT Subject: Death, Sole, and Memory On the Matter Resurrection Issue: I once (in the process of paytesting a friends gaming system) devloped a character who had many of the problems associated with the current discussion. Enough so that the character was abanded because of them. Replecator could duplicate matter. Not create matter, only recreate and replace the lost energy that made up the snapshot that he stored. He could also store a copy of himself at an earlier age and replicate himself and the expence of the aged 'version'. The new 'copy' would awaken in a world that he new the other had to leave and in one in which he had been prepared for. Interestingly this created a immortial creature with a very limited memory span. This created the need for VERY accurate diaries and many books on languages since the creation would only have the memory of a single life span and not the life that preceeded his recreation. Unfortunately the idea of being abile to recreate others, was very disquiting to others..... Victor O'Rear Player of Alter Ego (The Game System companion to the CRC) ------------------------------ From: sdcc6!ix469@topaz.rutgers.edu (david smith) Subject: Re: transporters Date: 4 Oct 85 16:41:25 GMT Here's a thought: If you zapped someone's matter into energy, would each atom zapped give off a different frequency? If so, and if you could keep the beam intact, converting back with the same process of frequency to atom conversion, you'd never really have to deal with that massive amount of information. matter=energy*(speed of light)^2, so given you've got the same energy you started with, you're still you. If we have the exsistance of a soul, would it just take off if the body was no longer intact, or would it stick with what should be the body? Note that since the information is not really processed anywhere (we'll assume that zapping matter to energy can be reversed with atom x=frequency x=atom x again) it would not be readily possible to make "clones". A question. Since you weren't killed, but merely transformed, are you dead? (This discussion is what we all get for taking Gene Rodenberry too seriously:-) David L. Smith UC Sandy Eggo {ucbvax, ihnp4}!sdcsvax!sdcc6!ix469 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 85 00:29:31 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: In the archives there is ... a humorous history of SF-L somewhere. It was posted a few years ago (no I don't remember how many, probably three to five though). Steve Z. ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@SDCSVAX.ARPA Date: Tue, 8 Oct 85 02:15:06 PDT Subject: Further Evidence apon the accuraccy of Stormtroopers It has been questioned that the Stormtroopers are the best gunners in the Galaxy, yet their ability to hit two slow moving droids is appalling. Please note the following commentary with great historian Obi Won: Fluke: "It looks like Sandpeople did this all right. Look here are Gaffi Sticks, Bantha tracks, it's just.... I never heard of them hitting anything this big before." Augie: "They didn't. But we are meant to think they did. These tracks are side by side. Sandpeople always ride single file to hide their numbers." Fluke: "These are the same Jawas that sold us Artedeco and Fourqutoo. Augie: "And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise. "The Art of Star Wars," Edited by Carol Titelman. Page 52 (A friend suggests that Augie Ben Doggie turns his head away to prevent showing the grin from the last statement.....) Victor O'Rear {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc or crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Oct 85 0946-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #401 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 12 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 401 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Brust & Campbell & Koontz & Lessing & Zelazny, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (3 msgs) & Star Wars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 85 08:59 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Excerpt: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov, in F&SF >From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) >EXCERPT FROM: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov THE MAGAZINE OF >FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, 36th Anniversary Issue - OCT '85 > >Well, where should one start? With the simple truth that the great >Dr. A doesn't know jack about commas, and uses them in the wrong >place at the wrong time? Or with his smug, egocentric male >chauvinism toward his daughter, her "lovely co-worker", and his >wife, whom he refuses to name? Ex-wife. And, if his feelings on the subject as delivered in "In Memory Yet Green" and "In Joy Still Felt" are to be accepted, he avoids references to her more in sorrow than in anger. As for his "smug, egocentric male chauvinism", how many men do you know who are in the least objective about their offspring? Where do you come up with the idea that objectivity is even desireable in a parent? Besides, having seen said daughter once a few years ago, I would say that Asimov is being far from generous in his praise. In simpler terms, he did good. >How about something more substantive - like why in the hell is this >vignette included in a science history article about the discovery >of yeast? Why not? As I recall from the days when I read F&SF regularly, the good doctor always began his science column with some anecdote or personal story. In general, I found them at least as interesting as the rest of the column. When I've attended talks he has given, the subject has generally been personal. And the audience has eaten it up! Maybe the problem is that you can't stand the idea of someone being liked when it isn't in direct proportion to the literary merits of their work. >I just don't get it. Could somebody clue me in? Doesn't surprise me in the least. Personally, I doubt it. Davis Tucker ------------------------------ From: cstvax!db@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Berry) Subject: Re: JHEREG by Stephen Brust Date: 15 Oct 85 13:34:37 GMT This follows a flame on the use of strange names in fantasy books (see below). I know some people who are put off fantasy/SF by the names of the characters, saying it shows *LACK of imagination* on the part of the author. The argument goes something like this: If all the characters' speech is translated into English, should not the names be translated also? If necessary, names that sound foreign to most english-speakers can be used for foreigners in the book, etc. If the authors have to rely on strange names to create a "sense of wonder", then they probably aren't good writers. If strange names are used, then they should have some derivation, just as most english names have some derivation, such as familial structure, reference to occupation etc. Tolkien is sometimes cited as a good example, I would think that Carolyn Cherryh is another. This way the names help to flesh out a world, and give it substance, history etc. I'm used to strange names and don't notice them. I agree with the last point above. I'm not sure about the first two points, but fantasy/SF writers could bear them in mind - why put people off unnecessarily? Minor points on the original article follow: oleg@birtch.UUCP (Oleg Kiselev x258) writes: >In his review of JHEREG by Stephen Brust Mark R. Leeper writes >> Aside from the multiplicity of unfamiliar names--probably >> not a drawback for most other readers--the story is fairly >> well-written. I did, however, all too often come up confused as >> to who was who in the book and because of that, did not enjoy the >> book as much as I might have. > >Oh, poor you! I bet you put away Zelazny's "Lord of Light" after >the first few pages. And how often do you read historical books? >Especially the ones on times and lands quite remote. I am sure >you've never read any of the Russian great writers -- because you >couldn't remember the names and places... JHEREG does not sport an >overwhelming cast of characters. Their names are easily remembered >and pronunciation is given. You're flaming here - obviously Mark didn't find them easy to remember. Just because you find something easy doesn't mean everybody else will. >Next time why don't you set up a list of names of characters you >encounter in a book and who they are and just give them plain >English names (for your own benefit) like "Joe", "Pete", etc. and >think of everything in those terms. And as long as we are at it >why not replace magic with something else. Like cabs instead of >teleports... CPR instead of "raise dead" spell... If the story >doesn't make any sense after all these transformations -- I guess >it wasn't good enough to start with... Often I find this can be done. If the story does make sense after all the transformations, there is little point writing it as fantasy. I like my fantasy/SF to show how the magic/technology affects the characters/story. Obviously you & Mark disagree on whether Brust does this. PS. what is CPR? >As far as my opinion on Steven Brust's writing : > I think he is one of the finest new authors in fantasy/sf. JHEREG > (and its sequel YENDI) are enjoyable reading. His "To Reign in > Hell" was an exellent analysis of an old story and is a very > pleasant book. I liked "To reign in hell". However, I don't regard it as an "analysis" of anything. It's a fun retelling of some biblical ideas, but that's all it is - good fun. For example, it ignores most of the old testament after the creation story. Dave Berry. CS postgrad, Univ. of Edinburgh ...mcvax!ukc!{hwcs,kcl-cs}!cstvax!db ------------------------------ From: pur-ee!hsut@topaz.rutgers.edu (Bill Hsu) Subject: Comments on horror Date: 9 Oct 85 23:22:47 GMT Re: Mark Leeper's review of The Doll Who Ate His Mother Well, looks like Ramsey Campbell is finally making his way across the Atlantic. Back when I used to read horror regularly, Campbell was one of my favorite authors. Recently, he has been putting out more conventional horror novels, the only distinguishing features being the overwhelmingly bleak world view expounded in his fiction (quite a contrast to his happy interviews and book introductions) and his terse, effective prose. Campbell started out as a Lovecraft clone and a member of August Derleth's Arkham House stable, but soon turned out to be an interesting and original writer. The earlier stuff is fairly straightforward and easy-to-read horror, but his later stuff is much denser and the convoluted prose and deliberate vagueness of his descriptions of every day life competes for attention with the relative simplicity of his plots. His first collection (The Occupant of the Lake???) is a good sampling of his Lovecraft period (out-of-print and too expensive, sigh). The second collection Demons by Daylight is very uneven, with some neat little pieces. The third collection (Height of the Scream???) is representive of the "difficult" Campbell, an unsettling anthology of pictures of the vagueness and horror of everyday experience. There is also an anthology Campbell edited, Superhorror, with a nice Campbell story in it. I don't care much for Campbell's stuff after Height of the Scream. The Doll Who Ate His Mother had some nice moments but was rather uneven. I couldn't finish The Parasite --- it seemed painfully conventional. A lot of Ramsey Campbell reads badly as conventional horror. I consider more of a good writer who happens to enjoy working within the confines of the genre (another good example would be Ian McEwan and his chilling first novel, The Cement Garden). Campbell achieves interesting effects with minimal means (read some of the stories from his third collection to see what I mean). Too bad he decided he needed more money and started cranking out more commercial stuff. Bill Hsu {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!pur-ee!hsut ------------------------------ From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Colonel'K) Subject: Re: NIGHTMARE JOURNEY by Dean R. Koontz Date: 10 Oct 85 13:39:58 GMT > creating horrible races of deformed beings--some scaled, some > furred, tiny, winged, and huge. Now Jask, a Pure who retains the > original human genetic code, and Tedesco, a great bear with a > human mind, are thrown together by their one shared and fatal > trait--telepathy. Hunted like animals by the fearful populace, > they go in search of The Black Presence-- which may be the key to > mankind's place in the cosmos." > >The jacket is fairly accurate about the story. The author divides >his time between Jask learning how to rethink his views on the >world (and, in particular, about non-Pure creatures), and >adventures on the way to The Black Presence. > >Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane This sounds an awful lot like "Hiero's Journey" by Sterling Lanier (and its sequel, the name of which escapes me just now). These two books are decent "soft", post-holocaust SF, although their depiction of good/evil is somewhat simplistic (i.e. black-and-white, with no grey). I'd recommend 'em, however. A good rendition of psionics. Scott J. Berry ihnp4!hou2g!scott ------------------------------ From: cbscc!trb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Balent) Subject: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing Date: 9 Oct 85 16:45:52 GMT I am looking for an opinion (or review) of the five book series by Doris Lessing "Canopus in Argos: Archieves". Has anyone out there read any or all of these books? Are they worth the time (and money)? I have never read any of Ms Lessing's works, but a number of reviewers seem to like her new, non-science fiction work. However, in the reviews that I've read they all make some comment to the effect that it is good to have her back from outer space. So if there is anyone who has an opinion on the series, please share it with me. t.r. balent ostg at&t-ns columbus ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 85 08:11:43 PDT (Thursday) From: Piersol.PASA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: Amber ******** Spoiler Warning ******** Perhaps Luke/Rinaldo used Corwin's pattern, which appeared to have power even in the original Amber multiverse. That pattern is unlikely to be so heavily watched as the main Amber pattern. If he later destroyed Corwin's pattern (out of spite for his father's death) this would explain Corwin's insanity. In any case, though, Brand had the power to move anywhere in shadow in an instant. It is possible that Brand had a trump for the Amber pattern as well. In either case, Brand could easily have gotten into the pattern with Rinaldo for the time needed to walk the pattern. As I remember, the Pattern room was well below dungeon level in Amber, and very seldom entered. Kurt ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: Deja vu: Editing stored matter transmitter images Date: 8 Oct 85 23:53:59 GMT Imagine the ramifications of some business taking a basic human they found best for a certain job, making modifications to the person, and then just copying the person off. Re-create them from stored images daily, and they won't strike, if you just re-start them each morning and terminate them in the evening. Or perhaps if you copied yourself off, you could do twice the amount of work in a given day. Do you get paid overtime? And how about assassination? Not only could you restore the backup of the President or whoever, you could kill the President and take his backup hostage! ("We have the tape with a recording of Ronald Reagan on it. We are going to destroy vital bytes telling which parts of his body go where every day. The more you wait before ransoming, the more screwed up he'll look when you reboot him.") If you can do that, look at travel. If I want to go over and visit a friend of mine on the USENET, I leave a backup copy at home in case UUCP fails and my friend will just download the copy that travels. ZAP! I can take a short vacation in the time it takes for this message to travel to him. Larry Niven did a series on a society with teleport booths, I can't remember which stories are in which books. A sure sign I need to re-read them. Could you imagine what would happen if a bit of line noise got you? Could be nasty. That's the only reason I don't want to go through- until they have it 100% perfect, I don't want to have my body and the various chemicals and electrical impulses stored in this lump of grey matter between my ears mangled, not my hypothetical soul! Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 85 07:13:19 CDT From: mooremj@EGLIN-VAX Subject: Matter Transmission, Copying, etc. When an amoeba divides into two new amoebas, each an exact copy of the original, which is the "original"? There is no choice between them. The same argument holds for the transmitter/copier; both results will believe themselves to be the original. Don Provan and some others seem to be arguing that there must be a continuity of consciousness from the original to one of the results, making it the "original". But if the copy is perfect, consciousness itself is duplicated, so there is a continuity from the original to *both* results; perhaps it is better to think of it as twinning, like the amoeba, than as copying. A wild but intriguing possibility is that the results might have *one* consciousness shared among their bodies. There was a great story called "Let's Be Frank" (author forgotten) which dealt with a shared-consciousness mutation in the human race. I highly recommend it; I'll try to research the author's name (unless somebody posts it first.) marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: Thu 10 Oct 85 12:48:34-CDT From: Mayank Prakash Subject: Re: Matter Transmission. To: Don.Provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU >i think a recent post (which, i believe, was arguing against me) >said it best: "'Having the same indentity' is not an equivalence >relation." exactly my point. just because it looks like me, talks >like me, smells like me, acts like me, and thinks it is me doesn't >make it me. Then why don't you tell us what makes you "you", instead of raving about what doesn't? mayank. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 85 13:18:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- Lightsabres vs. Blasters --- On Lightsabres: Lightsabres as a pseudo-living artifact. Think about it. In the third book there is a chapter talking about how Luke builds his light- sabre w/ tools found in Ben's old hut. Also mentioning the quasi- organic appearance of some of the pieces. Suppose that a light- sabre is not a technology-only device? It takes some application of the Force to build (poss. not to use, but certainly to build). It would be far rarer than a blaster, and a badge of office to the Jedi Knights. Possibly a lightsabre will stop working when it's builder dies? I doubt that Ben pressed the "off" button before being struck down by Vader... (Let's not get into whether Ben is really alive or dead here...) Luke would not have that problem w/ his father's sabre because Vader is alive & well..... How about it? Better than Sinclair Molecular Chain? Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Oct 85 0914-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #402 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 402 Today's Topics: Books - Lessing & Niven & End of the World Stories & Doc Savage, Television - Amazing Stories & Alfred Hitchcock, Miscellaneous - Alma Maters & Time Travel & Orson Welles & Matter Transmission (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bunny!ehn0@topaz.rutgers.edu (Eric Nyberg) Subject: Re: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing Date: 10 Oct 85 12:46:28 GMT >I am looking for an opinion (or review) of the five book series by >Doris Lessing "Canopus in Argos: Archieves". I have started reading the series. The first book, "Shikasta," is in my opinion an excellent book. It is difficult to characterize; although there are many elements of fantasy and SF in the story, the main focus is on "the decline of man" and the futility of modern politics, new/old generations and their relationships, etc. I was definitely blown away by the book, but I can't say whether anyone else would be for sure. I've started the second book (I think it's called "Marriage between Zones 4 and 5"), and it is completely different from "Shikasta." It is almost a fairy tale about a marriage between the female leader of a very peaceful, advanced culture and the crude warrior-king of a warring race, ostensibly to create a balance in the cosmos. That's about all I can tell you - so far I like this one, too. I'm not sure that Lessing's SF is the best place to start. I have also read "Briefing for a Descent into Hell," which is one hell of a book (arrgh, bad pun). If you like psychological/dream-like fiction, this book is for you. In fact, there are notable similarities between the style of this book and some of Gene Wolfe's stories. There is also the "Children of Violence" series, which I have started, but I'm not sure if I'll ever finish it. Set in South Africa, the story seems to be drawn from Lessing's own experiences as a young woman, but the protagonist seems shallow, uncertain, and downright exasperating at times. There are five books in this series too, ending with "The 4-Gated City," which my wife has read and claims is excellent; it takes place in post-holocaust London. I'm not sure I can stand the next 3 books in the series in order to get there, though. As you can tell from my long-winded reply, I am definitely a Doris Lessing fan (of sorts). I would be glad to discuss any of her books with you if you decide to read them. Regards, Eric Nyberg, 3rd CSNET: ehn0@gte-labs UUCP: ..harvard!bunny!ehn0 GTE Laboratories, Dept. 317 40 Sylvan Rd. Waltham, MA 02254 (617) 466-2518 ------------------------------ From: okamoto@ucbvax.ARPA (Doctor Who) Subject: Re: The Ringworld Polar Projection Maps Date: 10 Oct 85 15:06:34 GMT > From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) > The time line isn't right for it to be any other way. I suspect, > and I'd have to reread the timeline in Known Space, that about the > time Phssthpok was entering the Sol system, the Puppeteers were > greedily seeding Ringworld with the superconductor pathogen, (give > or take a thousand years). The Puppetteers seeded the Ringworld around 1732 AD. [1] > An important fact to remember here is that the Ringworld is > mobile. The Ringworlds sun could be flared by manipuating the > magnetic effects of portions of the Ringworld 'scrith'. The sun > would move and the Ringworld's attitude jets would chug furiously > to keep up. Sorry, but the Ringworld will be "tethered" to its sun by gravity. The attittude jets need only be used for lateral movement of the Ringworld. > Someone will probably be delighted to calculate what it's maximum > speed and acceleration might be, but I suggest that both would be > sufficient to be able to escape the core explosion. The acceleration is EXTREMELEY small, but the sun has a lot of fuel to use. And, when the sun has expended all its material, the scrith can generate a ramscoop field and thus propel itself and provide light for the surface. (Granted that the color will be off, by quite a bit....) > I advance the theory that the Ringworld is some giantic Noah's > Ark. It was built near the core world of Pak by breederless > Protectors who had staved off death by starvation by generalizing > their protective instincts to generic Pak and, yes, even non-Pak > species. The problem there is if this is so, why did they build it so near Earth where the exploratory Pak are? Seems to me that if they wanted to stay well away from them, they would explore in the OPPOSITE direction that the first Pak went in. > I believe that the Ringworld has been traveling hither and yon > thourghout the galaxy for quite some time. During that time the > Pak have collected species and built replicas of the species home > planets. Hmm, interesting theory. But it makes no sense. First of all, the Known Space planets are by no means on a straight line. They would need interstellar craft to reach all the myriad planets. Second, the puppetteers would have noticed the Ringworld long before they claim they did. Same goes for the Kzinti. [1] Cf, Chaosium's Role-Playing game "Ringworld" (Check out the credits :-) Jeff Okamoto okamoto@BERKELEY.EDU ..!ucbvax!okamoto ------------------------------ From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Lubinsky) Subject: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF Date: 9 Oct 85 09:04:24 GMT > In answer to the fellow who asked for an After-The-End anthology. > > The after-doomsday theme is one that has been handled often in > both sci-fi and mainstream literature. Geez! If you're going to post this to sf-lovers, too, please don't use the term ``sci-fi''. ``SF'' is much nicer. ``Sci-fi'' brings to mind Japanese monster flicks. > Damnation Alley. Zelazny (or perhaps Silverberg, I forget which). > Pretty road-warriorish. It was Zelazny. Not particularly at his best. Never saw the movie they made out of this. Anyone seen it and/or liked it? I didn't see the original article, but if the requester was looking for stories set after the fall of civilization (not necessarily ours), I'd recommend: ``Nightfall'' by Isaac Asimov. A classic short story about a world orbitting multiple suns, forever in daylight, where civilization crumbles each epoch in which all of the planet's suns are eclipsed simultaneously. ``A World Out Of Time'' by Larry Niven. Thrown three million years into the future by a relativistic space voyage, the hero returns to Earth to find the survivors of humanity living among the ruins. Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: DS: Bantam Reprints (was re: Doc Savage on NPR) Date: 9 Oct 85 15:15:12 GMT Speaking of Doc Savage, anyone know what happened to the Bantam reprints? `The All White Elf' and `The Running Skeleton' was due out in July as I recall.... Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Old Pa and other Amazing Stories Date: 9 Oct 85 13:56:00 GMT Ah, but this second episode of Amazing Stories deserves more comment in passing. Such subtle, delicately nuanced characterization, not unlike Steve Martin playing Hamlet. The striving for consistent moral outlook, full of the cogent meanings and latent ambiguities but rarely found in authentic replicas of fortune cookies. Motivations of individuals and relationships between these individuals events woven into a tapestry (travesty?) of cause and effect not seen since Heisenberg first dreamed of an electron farting. And finally, the science; even I, who am inclined to let minor points go by for the sake of dramatic or literary license was dumber-struck at the sheer elan with which Spielberg extended his range of scientific facts and plausibilities to new, if not outer, limits. Nay, my friends, let us not let this second episode of Amazing go by with such little notice. (And God help the magazine of the same name if they expect *this* TV show to bail them out!) Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ Date: Thu 10 Oct 85 17:17:23-PDT From: Haruka Takano Subject: Afred Hitchcock remakes? I know the first episode was a remake (because I thought the original was a classic), but does anyone know whether or not the second episode was also an updating of an old show (I got the strongest feeling of deja vu when I saw that final scene)? Haruka ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 85 23:19:13 EDT From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Alma Mater's claim to SF notables ... Rutgers University lays claim to James Blish ... Don't ask me where I saw it, I don't have enough of my books to check on it, but James Blish attended Rutgers for an undergraduate degree in (I think) zoology. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 85 17:24:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: small essay on time and it's aspects.... Startup on a new (for the recent past on SF-L) topic: Time Travel Re-reading _The Adventures of the Stainless Steel Rat_ (the original trilogy in one volume) I come across an aspect of time travel that I have thought about before, but never quite seen addressed. That there are really THREE types of time involved when dealing w/ time travel. Objective time is the standard time around now....and what we are traveling IN. Subjective time is your personal history. Meta time involves time-travel events. To elucidate: Pierre Boulle (in his story Time Out of Mind) covers subjective time fairly well: Person A kills Person B somewhere in the past....then Person A continues to the future, where he is killed by (you guessed it) Person B, who then continues back the past where he is killed by Person A. Each Person kills the other before he is killed by them (subjectively). Meta time travel involves things like "Time Barriers", in The Stainless Steel Rat Saves the World, (the third book), he cannot travel back before 1807 (or so) because The Enemy has set up a time barrier. Thus he cannot travel back to 1800 or so, arriving before the Enemy does, and defeat him that way. The Meta aspect is: At some "time" there was no barrier to travel before 1807, and at some "future" time there will again be no barrier. HOWEVER, for the (meta)duration of the barriers existence, NO ONE may travel back before 1807 regardless of whether they are (objective) 100 years or 30,000 years in the future. The "duration" of the existence of the barrier is an instance of "Meta time". Has anyone any thoughts on these three distinctions? Has anyone seen a story where all three are brought into play? (Objective and Subjective time are dealt with frequently, but Meta time seems to be ignored (and rightly so...it would be a difficult concept....can you now imagine traveling in Meta time??? You could travel to (objective) 1800 by FIRST traveling back a month in Meta time, to "before" the barrier was put up...)) Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ Subject: Orson Welles Date: 10 Oct 85 20:19:18 PDT (Thu) From: Doug Krause So long to Orson Welles, creator of the best science fiction radio program ever. doug krause dkrause@uci-icsb.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu 10 Oct 85 21:04:18-CDT From: Mayank Prakash Subject: Re: Matter Transmission. To: don.provan@A.CS.CMU.EDU >no. you're the one trying to get me into a disintegrator. you'll >have to explain to me how the copy of me you're going to make is >going to have my consciousness in it. not a copy of my >consciousness, but *my* consciousness. so far all you've said is >"it looks like a cow. it acts like a cow. it must be a cow." all >i've been saying is "it might be a cow, but it isn't the same cow." > >my point is simple. No, your point is not simple. What *is* your consciousness, and how is it to be distinguished from a copy of it? Before I can explain to you how a copy of you may have your consciousness, in fact before we can communicate with each other at all, we must come to an agreement as to the meaning of terms that we use. I find your interpretation of the word *consciousness* very vague and meaningless (and perhaps, a little romantic), and therefore I want to understand more clearly what is it that you mean by it. >original, the experience will be the same regardless of whether or >not the recording device is connected: he will walk into a >disintegrator and die. all you guys are claiming that if the >recorder is disconnected, he'll die, but if it is connected he >won't die. sounds implausible to me. You are getting confused because there are two things involved here - a transportation mechanism, and a life support system. If the first fails, you don't go anywhere, if the second fails, you die. The only difference is that they are both well integrated with each other in this case, so failure of one is also failure of the other. To consider an analogy, you walk into a spaceship, and make a trip to, say, the moon. If the transportation mechanism (the rockets, the navigation equipment etc.) breaks down, you end up in some SF location. If the life support system fails, you die. If both are run by the same computer, then your dead body reaches some unknown realms of space. The transporter is not much different. (Witness Captain Kirk and his crew that has survived numerous such trips). mayank. ------------------------------ From: proper!carl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Carl Greenberg) Subject: Re: stored matter transmitter images Date: 9 Oct 85 22:21:04 GMT chris@umcp-cs.UUCP (Chris Torek) writes: >I have often wondered what I would do with a copy of myself---or >perhaps what a copy of myself would do with me. For instance, when >I got up this afternoon I needed to do my laundry. Suppose I >created an exact duplicate. One of me could do the laundry while >the other read net.sf-lovers. Then the other one wouldn't have read net.sf-lovers and probably gotten very mad that you made him go out and do the laundry while you just sat around and read. >But if he were an exact duplicate, he (I?---we seem to need new >pronouns) would want to read net.sf-lovers and have me do the >laundry. How could we come to an agreement? (Perhaps I would do >the washing and he the drying... :-) ) Try editing the part of the brain labelled "self-motivation". Turn it off for a while. When you need a servant, zap him up off the backup tape, give orders, and have him report to the demat machine when finished. Of course, humanitarians would shit bricks sideways if they found out about such callous use of computer-generated clones... Carl Greenberg ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 1985 10:28:32 GMT (Friday) From: Keith Dale Subject: Matter transmission One of the Star Trek novels, Price of the Phoenix by [two women authors whose names escape me], deals with the problem of identical copies of a person coexisting ("Will the real James Kirk please stand up."). The story is done very well and shows (to me, at least) that the authors must have had discussions similar to that raging on the net lately. It does get involved, even (gasp!) makes you think (:-), and should be a good way to gather more fuel for this debate. Also, I thought it was a good read, but then I like most everything that I read. How about some criticisms? Am I wrong to like it? (:-) Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Oct 85 0935-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #403 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 403 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov (2 msgs) & Lessing, Films - Star Trek IV, Television - Amazing Stories, Miscellaneous - Writers as Instructors & Matter Transmission (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 08:37 EDT From: " Roz " Subject: Re: Davis Tucker/Asimov Sorry--just have to respond...When I read Asimov's introduction which you so kindly provided, I remember thinking "sounds just like Asimov, I wonder what point he (Davis Tucker) is trying to make?... maybe something about the offspring of writers..." I personally had to push myself to find the "negative" items Davis points out/interprets in what Asimov wrote (but yes I COULD find them), but then "I" have enough problems without looking for more to upset me. I tend to ramble on about my handsome, smart son (who is 7 and very charming) as well--both verbally and in my writing (from book reviews to reports); I also tend to bring up the subject of my husband who is tall, dark, handsome, intelligent, and a civil engineer! His only serious flaw is that he doesn't like computers...he will tolerate them as long as HE does not have to work with them much! It is hard for me to edit my informal speaking, but since I am only a fledgling writer my personal anecdotes go in the introductory paragraph with a page eject before and after so that they are easily removed. But fair warning!: When I have attained (in my opinion, a lofty goal) the writing stature of Asimov, you will be subjected to my personal reminiscences! Many people who are taken with their friends, family, pets, etc quite unknowingly subject other people to "stories" about them...it's a function of personality! Granted, it can get on one's nerves--but I personally like it (if it feels warm and natural) because it makes the publicly well-known person more "real and human" to me. Roz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 13:28:29 EDT From: Joel B Levin Subject: Re: Excerpt from essay by Isaac Asimov To: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu I don't usually respond to this (or any) type of criticism, not being much of a critic myself, and, since you wrote your message over three days ago, I am sure you will have received several responses already; I am nevertheless moved to respond to your critique of Asimov's introduction to his essay. You ask: "Could sombody clue me in?" I will offer my personal explanation, but I expect it won't help. Just as there are people whom you just don't much like, even though they may themselves have many close friends, I would guess you simply don't like this aspect of Asimov's writing. I have been reading Asimov as long as I have been reading SF (almost as long as I have been reading, over 30 years). He has been writing this way all that time, usually in introductions to other people's books or to stories in anthologies, and I always thought he was pretty funny. The clue that you are seeking must be that lump in his cheek caused by a firmly planted tongue. If you don't believe that he is humorous when writing in this vein, then, sure enough, you will find plenty to object to in the words. I believe it is true of much satire or parody that when a reader misses the humorous point or tone and takes the words seriously, he or she will find much that is objectionable. In fact, your message reminds me of occasional flaming responses to SFL digest articles in which the author could have, but did not, insert smiley faces. Certainly no author's style of humor will reach 100% of the audience. I expect you should just count yourself in that portion which does not care for it, and forget about it. (Skip over the first part of the F&SF essays if you want to read their meat.) For me, if this type of writing is amusing, that is enough. "...why in the hell is this vignette included in a science history article...?" Because that is what Asimov does in an F&SF essay. It is not what someone else would do there, and it is not what he would do in a book or text about science (other than a collection of his essays, of course). It is what is expected of him, it is what the editor buys. If most readers had felt the way you do when he began writing in this style, it would not have lasted this long. One final note: In the excerpt you quoted, I could find few commas I could disagree with. I would ADD one after "friends of mine"; I would ADD another after "would say"; I would ADD another after "and say" in the next paragraph. A number of the commas he used I would consider optional, and a couple places could have benefited from an added comma. I am not a grammarian, but I could remember rules which justify his punctuation in each case except those I noted. The rules are not followed as carefully as they once were, and I enjoy seeing (what I think is) proper usage. JBL ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing Date: 11 Oct 85 22:20:41 GMT trb@cbscc.UUCP (Tom Balent) writes: >I am looking for an opinion (or review) of the five book series by >Doris Lessing "Canopus in Argos: Archives". > >Has anyone out there read any or all of these books? Are they >worth the time (and money)? I've read the first three (possibly the fourth, too; don't remember too well). Of the first three, the second is VERY different from the other two, and of the three, is the one that most bears reading. The first is a very strange book. Anyone who is the least bit familiar with the mythopoeic fiction knows what is going to happen in the end. Everything runs downhill until it is all fixed in the last chapter. What you get in the meantime is an extended dissertation on the sins of man, culminating with a long-winded and rather contrived (even within the character's point of view) confrontation. This resolves nothing; in fact, nothing resolves anything. I can't recommend this book, I'm afraid, although it's somewhat hard to pin a reason down as to why. The third book is similar, talking about the same time frame in a different region from a different point of view. Both of these books present a dualistic sort of competition for the earth which reads strikingly like a way to reinvent the Judaic view of man, but without the deity. The second book, as I said earlier, is quite different. It's sort of a Beren-and-Luthien Men-and-Fairies sort of sort, except that there are neither men nor fairies. The oppressive sense of "I am telling an Important Story" is much muted, and the cosmic forces all go away (after they set the ball in motion. This book is perhaps worth checking out of the library. There are two things that the whole of this has going against it: Doris Lessing is basically a mainstream novelist. Her "science fiction" is more mythopoeic fantasy; there's a strong kinship in that regard to the book _Out of the Silent Planet_. If you didn't like that book, you will not like any of these books (well, *maybe* the second). The books are simply too self-important. I continually through the first and third books had this feeling of the author having this vision of how she was going to change the world through these books, the dreaded "I am telling an Important Story" sense. The fact is that both the themes and the form of their presentation aren't new. The first book is in particular marred by this sense of mission, leading to a lot of contrived settings and conflicts. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 11:47 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: A Star Trek Rumor? In the flier for the Creation Con in Palo Alto this month they are saying that their guest, Roger C Carmel (aka Harry Mudd) may be in ST IV. Any other news from the Star Trek network? ------------------------------ Date: Fri 11 Oct 85 12:12:08-PDT From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: Re: Amazing Stores/Hitchock Presents Wrong, wrong, wrong. Amazing stories was quite good last week. I don't much blame the people who didn't like it though. I too am so jaded by MTV-like crap that when I start seeing something which even resembles it I sometimes pay no attention. THEATER OF THE ABSURD That's exactly what this was. Brad Bender wasn't just a popular kid. He was absurdly popular. How many high school kids could turn on their morning radios and hear their names shouted out wildly? This kid's entire life could be summarized by a "thumbs up". Pointing out minor plausibility flaws in this is like watching Waiting For Godot and complaining "Hey, nobody talks like that! I've never seen scenery like that." Of course not; that's the whole point. I couldn't stop laughing during the locker scene. (By the way, I'm not much on cinematography, but I liked very much the long shot of the lockers when the Bender kid wasn't even seen!) "ALL RIGHT!! SO I'M MAGNETIC!! SO WHAT!?!" Talk about a nice bit of dialogue. Please, someone help me. What was the name of the short story where everyone must be equal (must conform to the lowest common denominator). Beautiful people must wear ugly masks, smart people wear painful sound devices which break their trains of thought, etc.. The super-human in that (wearing hundreds of pounds of metal and head phones) THAT was Brad Bender. As for Hitchcock Presents......sorry, no. The problem is the entire story was trashed for the sake of a "Gotcha" ending. It's totally ridiculous that no one would notice that the murdered policeman's wife was taking care of the murderer. How did she manage to be so gentle, kind, and giving to that psychopathic maggot when she should have been in terrible grief? Merrill Streep couldn't have pulled it off. Remember here she did it for FOUR DAYS. Why did she have to take him out of the hospital? (remember the "just pull my IV" part?). Why did she have to drug him? Couldn't he just pretend to be asleep? Once she got him out of the hospital, why did she keep carrying on with the charade?? (I'm talking about to the point of having him in her house siting on her bed and STILL saying "Everything's fine, you'll be safe here.") Total nonsense. The writer should have decided whether he was writing a practical joke or a serious piece of fiction. And before people start flaming at me, YES, I can think of a few hacks to make this (mostly) plausible. First, how did she manage to be his nurse? You got me on that one (Suggestions anyone?) Second, how was she so nice to him? Well, you see, she too was more than a little psychopathic. The killing of her husband (ie the taking of one of her possessions) quite properly set off a clang reaction to get back in the best possible way at the culprit. This of course robs her of much needed audience sympathy, but it's the best I can do.(anyone?) As for leaving the hospital? Why take chances? Shoot (or poison or whatever) him there and someone might just save him (You'll only get one try, what with a cop right outside the door.) It's best to have him alone. As for the drugging that could actually be quite interesting. What did she give him? Perhaps along with the sedative something to make him die a slow convulsion ridden horrible death? Why bring him all the way to the house? Several reasons. Perhaps she actually has a plan to get away with all of this (I admit it would have to be one HECK of a good plan). Also, remember, he's going to die slow and hard. (The gun was either an after thought or "plan B".) Why continue to be nice to him? Well, what fun is his dying if she can't watch? As for finally shooting him? It was plain he wasn't about to stick around. However, with that pistol she probably could have changed his mind (shoot him in the foot to convince him). But perhaps after he quite randomly found out she was the victim's wife, she found it (psychopaths being what they are) a proper time to "let him have it". Having said that, I'll also say -- NO, in writing I don't believe (with a few exceptions (poetry being the most notable)) that one should have to work that hard just for the story to make any sense. I do believe good writing should set one thinking, but a different kind of thinking. It's the difference between "It would take a very fine driver to explore all the possibilities of this race car." and "It would take a very fine mechanic to make this piece of junk start." My thanks to the person who said that good comedy offends people. I never thought about that before. My first reaction was "No it doesn't". However, most good comedy I've seen which doesn't offend people actually doesn't offend OTHER people. Can you say self deprecation? I knew that you could. I can't believe how much television I'm watching, (either I'm becoming less of a snob, (not likely from the above) or SOME television is getting a lot better). Bob Sheleg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 08:55 EDT From: " Roz " Subject: Re: Dave Godwin/Writers-Instructors While I was at OSU (that's Oregon State U, Corvallis, OR), J.F. Bone was a Professor of Vet Med there. He also "taught" the Science Fiction Honors Colloquia course. The course met evenings at his home. He was good at getting the students to discuss pros and cons from plots to writing styles. He was never known to "plant" disucssion material, but as long as I was in the class he never had to...I had no qualms about stating something like "Keith Laumer's Retief stories are really only 'space opera/westerns' in disguise!". Bound to get a rise out of most of the male class members at that time (late 1960s, early 1970s). I remember finding his reminiscences fascinating. As for his Vet Med expertise, I was not a pre-vet student so can't say anything about that--he did spay my dog and she was healthy and happy. (She died, but for other reasons.) Roz ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 85 11:17:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- Matter Transmission/Computer Duplication --- Recently it has been brought up that a computer COULD be duplicated with memory intact, because a computer memory is merely electrons.... Presumably a computer of some sort is in charge of the matter duplication process....having to 'remember' each particle of the matter being duplicated. Q: Could such a computer duplicate (transmit) itself? Point to ponder: To record the memory of a computer, the machine must IN IT'S MEMORY have the position of each electron in itself. I believe that there are not enough electrons in a finite space to be able to store (as memory) the positions of each electron making up the memory. Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb P.S.: I may not have articulated this well, but I am sure some of you will see my point. Any answers for me? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 15:48 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Matter transmission, etc. Let's not forget the Uncertainty Principle in the context of matter recording/ duplication. A simple way of stating this is the following: "When dealing with sub-atomic particles (electrons, etc.), the more accurately the velocity of said particle is known, the less accurately its position is known, and visa versa". So, if you know the position of an electron to infinite precision, you know nothing about its velocity. This kind of screws up the copying process. I would hope that the copier was awfully precise. I was just thinking about this... What happens if you apply uncertainty to an entire person. Figure out the person's velocity to infinite precision, and he vanishes and appears somewhere else that is unknown. Hows that for a nifty solution. A random teleporter. Brett Slocum (Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Oct 85 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #404 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 14 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 404 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Brust & Busby & Hubbard & Hughart & Phillips & Varley & End of the World Stories (2 msgs) & Feminist Stories, Miscellaneous - Typos & Canadian Writers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hou2h!mr@topaz.rutgers.edu (M.RINDSBERG) Subject: Re: Excerpt: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov, in F&SF Date: 11 Oct 85 14:43:41 GMT >> EXCERPT FROM: "A Little Leaven", by Isaac Asimov >> THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, 36th Anniversary >> Issue - OCT '85 My beautiful, blond-haired, blue-eyed daughter, >> Robyn, who is now on ...... much stuff ....... discovery of >> yeast and enzymes.] > > Well, where should one start? With the simple truth that the great > Dr. A doesn't know jack about commas, and uses them in the wrong > place at the wrong For one thing, people keep buying and enjoying his books. > time? Or with his smug, egocentric male chauvinism toward his > daughter, her "lovely co-worker", and his wife, whom he refuses to > name? How about some- thing more substantive - like why in the > hell is this vignette included in a science history article about > the discovery of yeast? What does his con- descension toward his > beautiful daughter and his resultant foul aspersions on her > parentage have anything whatsoever to do with anything that any > human being besides an Asimov worshipper would want to know? I > mean, "unmistakeable Asimovian features" my left hand of darkness! > Does anyone you know talk about his daughters "Jacksonian > features" or "Alberryesque features" or "Rospachian features"? How > many people do you know who would refer to their daughters in > print as "gorgeous women"? How many writers have you ever read > that would say "she was asked to play the role, at sight, in her > grammar school...", and totally forget that there is no such > construct as "at sight" (it is correctly "at first sight")? > > More questions - how does even the demigod of science fiction, the > master of prolix spew, get away without having this kind of > ridiculous, embarrasing drivel of a father slobbering over the > fact that he actually raised a daughter that ended up looking good > and going into some sort of social worker program (that he > not-so-subtly hints at being amusingly disapproving of) edited out > of his otherwise good and informative article? Why does he think > that anyone in his right mind or even his left mind would find > what he has to say about his daughter, her adorable liberal > tendencies and her Aryan makeup, in any way germane to his article > about yeast, or even to the more global, meta- fictional point of > essay-writing? > > I just don't get it. Could somebody clue me in? Davis Tucker What Asimov trys to do when he writes these seemingly inane paragraphs is to get the reader involved with himself and his thinking on a personal basis thereby enabling the reader to be more comfortable while reading the text of the actual tale to follow. Usually he tries to lead up to how, and under what circumstances, the text was written. I happen to enjoy the bits and pieces of real life that he usually places between stories in an anthology and read them just as avidly as the stories themselves. Mark ..!hou2h!mr ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!gt3403b@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: JHEREG by Stephen Brust Date: 12 Oct 85 20:34:44 GMT Sorry, but I can't let people rag on one of my favorite books. First, I have no sympathy for anyone who complains about the names & number of characters in Jhereg. For one thing, there simply aren't that many characters, to say nothing of "main" characters (by that I mean characters whose personalities you get to know). Their names are all pronouncable and a pronunciation guide is supplied for the more difficult names. (If you thing Jhereg was bad, try The Dragon Waiting by John Ford. A great book, but boy do you have to work.) I count six main characters. The main character, his partner, his three Dragonlord friends, and his wife. Even then, you don't get to know them that well. Jhereg is not a characterization book. Jhereg *is* a story book. I also found it strange that the initial review referred to the main character as a "private eye". Perhaps the book should be re-read. Vlad Taltos (the main character) is not a private eye. He's an organized crime boss and an assassin. The story itself is the story of an assassination from the initial contact, to the background work, setup, and execution (if you'll pardon the pun). Three things make this book notable as far as I'm concerned. First, the incredibly consistent and believable world. SKZB takes a world of psionics, witchcraft and sorcery and makes it work so well that it almost appears mundane. Second, while the basic plot is simple, the episodes in the plot are not. There are a *lot* of interesting things going on and although all of them are explained pretty clearly at some point or another, the sheer deviousness of some of them had me shaking my head in admiration. Third, this is one of the few books I've read that gets the reader to identify and sympathize with an assassin who's trying to kill someone. I think it's a great tribute to SKZB's ability as a writer that he manages to do this without making the reader realize that anything extrordinary has happened. Ray Chen gitpyr!chen Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!chen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 85 21:22 EDT From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: F.M. Busby Cc: "Keith F. Lynch" > My favorite non-FTL interstellar epic is the trilogy >_Young_Rissa_, _Rissa_and_Tregare_, and _The_Long_View_ by F.M. >Busby (does anyone know of anything else by this author?) (Is this >a pseudonym for Robert Heinlein? Very similar style.) (Actually, >they do invent FTL near the end of the last book, but it is not >important to the plot.) F.M. Busby is certainly not a pseudonym for R.A.H. I've met Busby, who lives in or near Seattle. He's a neat guy who apparently wears lobsters to SF cons. As to his other work, he's written a lot. Unfortunately, my copies of it all aren't here, they're at home, so this is from memory: First, there are the Rissa books, which have seen print three ways: in one volume as Rissa K** (where K** represnts her last name which I've forgotten), in two volumes as Rissa K** and The Long View, and in three volumes as mentioned above. Note that Rissa K** has been the title of two books, one of which is contained in the other. Next there are a bunch of books related to the Rissa K** tri/bi/monology: two about the space pirate who Rissa marries (whose name I've forgotten), one of which is called Star Rebel, I think. These essentially tell about his early life before he shows up in Rissa. And a "sequel" (to Rissa) called The Alien Debt, wherein the characters from Rissa meet guess who. Also there is a book called Zelda M'Tamba (or something like that) about the early life of the character in Rissa with the same name. Finally, he has written another trilogy, now or soon to be out in one volumn, about lobsters who try and surgically alter all other life forms to look like them. I don't remember the names. There may also be other stuff. Anyway, certainly all of the stuff related to Rissa is well worth reading, even if you aren't a STL fan. Probably you should start with the Rissa trilogy (thats how its being marketed now) and move on to the others as your interest dictates. (Don't let KFL's comment about his style being like RAH's disuade you from reading these if you don't like Heinlein's style. I don't think they're all that similar.) Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 18:28:52 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: "The Invaders Plan" by L.Ron Hubbard It's out. I've actually seen a copy in a B. Dalton's (or was it Walden's? --same thing). It is 500+ pages, standard hardback size book, but the typing is very large (about 12 point, I think) and the interline spacing is generous, which compensates for the number of pages. I wasn't that interested in the book, so I didn't bother looking at the price. An interesting aside: one of the preliminary pages (between the front cover and the start of the story) contains a list of other things published by Hubbard. The list is rather long, and I assume this was inserted by the publisher to encourage people to buy other books from them. This would imply to me that there ARE older Hubbard stories still being printed (since the only other book he's written recently, to my knowledge, is "Battlefield Earth"). Another one of these pages had a list of all the books' names in the proposed dekalogy* (yes, it's even footnoted in the book). Pretty intense. If I can find just-released Hubbard, why can't I find just-released Varley? William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: * 10 volume work ------------------------------ From: absolut!matt@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: The Princess of Birds Date: 11 Oct 85 04:02:00 GMT Brief review: Hughart's _Princess_of_Birds_ is a real winner. It is a tongue in cheek fantasy, set in China. It's humour is broad in places and fine in others. The broad humor is tempered with a basic respect for the characters: these are distinct people, although not all exactly the sort you meet on the street every day. If you've tired of fantasies with badly concocted pseudo-Welsh names, musclebound superknightly heroes, and a cast of ersatz Nazghul and counterfeit Luke Skywalkers, here is an highly original work. Matt Leo {ucbvax!cbosgd!ima!cfib, decvax!cca}!absolut!matt Absolut Software 617-232-8377 2001 Beacon Street Boston, MA 02146-4227 ------------------------------ From: mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Subject: Query: Stories by Peter Phillips? Date: 13 Oct 85 05:49:10 GMT I have just finished a short story by Peter Phillips called "Manna" and would like to find other stories or novels by him. The intro to the story mentions that he has written several stories, but doesn't mention novels. "Manna" is copyright 1949 and the anthology it is in does not mention a source. Does anyone know in which anthologies I could find other stories by this author, and if he ever wrote any books? PLEASE NOTE: This is to be considered a personal challenge to jmb. Please do not answer to the net until he has posted his answer. I don't really want to cause another net flood. (Mail is always welcome, though.) Thanks in advance. -Dragon UUCP: ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 18:24:02 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: "Press Enter _" by John Varley I have been trying for the past several days to locate a copy of "Press Enter _" by John Varley. Why can't I find this book? No one knows that it exists. I know it's a recent release, which explains why it isn't in the Books in Print. But, I go to my friendly "mallified" bookstore and they say "Haven't never heard of that one". At least they know who Varley is! Is it still really that new? Is Houston slow? Or is this going to be one of those books that only independents carry because the distributors decided amongst themselves that this book shouldn't sell? William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 15:52 CDT From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Man in the Rubble > Galapagos. Kurt Vonnegut. Still in hardback. Don't forget Cat's Cradle by same author. A wry, witty end-of-the-world yarn which introduces my favorite substance, Ice-nine. Brett Slocum ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!btc@topaz.rutgers.edu (btc) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 10 Oct 85 16:52:00 GMT I think you missed one of the best of the genre - Earth Abides - (forgot the author) Bob Clark Hewlett-Packard PCD Corvallis, OR {ucbvax!hplabs, harpo, ogcvax}!hp-pcd!btc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 09:03 ??? From: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Subject: feminist sf/fantasy I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some recommendations from sisters or brothers out there. Antifeminists please note: I'm not going to argue with you people, so don't bother to flame me. You read your kind of literature and I'll read mine. Mary Malmros Center for Academic Computing Smith College Northampton, MA 01060 smithcollege.umass-ece$csnet-relay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 16:48:25 PDT From: lah@ucbmiro.Berkeley.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: My favourite typo Not on a cover, but on the first page of Diana L. Paxson's _Brisingamen_ (and not, so far as I know, fixed yet, though the book is in its 2nd printing, I believe): "In Iceland men had voted to accept the new faith [Xtianity] a generation ago, but here in Sweden, Olaf Lap-king was following the example of his son-in-law the King of Norway and enforcing conversation with fire and sword." How is the weather? Ve haf vays off making you talk!! How about those Giants? Speak, you dogs!! Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Canadian SF Writers Date: 10 Oct 85 13:21:02 GMT Charles de Lint is indeed Canadian, making his home in the national capital of Ottawa, although I tend to think of him as a fantasy writer rather than a science fiction writer. His first two novels were HARP OF THE GREY ROSE and MOONHEART, both published as Ace paperbacks. A dynamite writer, however you classify him. Another Canadian fantasist is S. M. (Steve) Stirling, author of SNOWBROTHER from Signet. I haven't read it yet, but de Lint gave it a glowing book review in THE OTTAWA CITIZEN newspaper. "Ashland, Kentucky" in the November ASIMOV's by Terry Green is also a Canadian story, as is the piece by Andrew Weiner in the Winter issue of NIGHT CRY (a digest-sized spin-off from THE TWILIGHT ZONE magazine). And, this year's Nebula and Hugo winner, William Gibson (for NEUROMANCER) is from British Columbia on Canada's west coast. RJS c/o tom University of Toronto ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Oct 85 0956-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #405 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 16 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 405 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Campbell & Lessing & Peake & Varley & Zelazny & SF Poll & End of the World Stories & Stories About Insects, Television - Amazing Stories & Blake's 7 & Misfits of Science, Miscellaneous - Nimoy & Matter Transmission ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hou2h!mr@topaz.rutgers.edu (M.RINDSBERG) Subject: Bearing an Hourglass. Date: 14 Oct 85 16:18:32 GMT The book "Bearing an Hourglass" by Piers Anthony has finally come out in paperback and is on shelves at the major bookstores. Mark ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: Setting the record straight about Campbell... Date: 14 Oct 85 03:38:41 GMT >(1) Campbell was not a tyrant. In fact, he encouraged many kinds of > experimentation in Astounding. This is attested by Heinlein > (Expanded Universe) Asimov (Opus 100, Before The Golden Age) > and many others. There were a couple of problems with his > editorship: an unreasonable insistence on "human supremacy"... > [ROBERT FIRTH] I disagree. The record of "Astounding" does not bear your assertions out. It was "Galaxy" and "The Magazine Of Fantasy And Science Fiction" that were on the cutting edge of experimentation. Campbell was considered tyrranical by even his friends (same books you quote) and had a general reputation for being so. If he encouraged experimentation, it was not in the literary content, but in the scientific content. His insistence on human supremacy and his well-documented, deep involvment with Dianetics most certainly went hand-in-glove with his strict editorial control, which drove away most of the good science fiction writers of his day (Silverberg, Sturgeon, Cordwainer Smith, Aldiss, and others). As to the testimony of Heinlein and Asimov, neither of whom would know literary experimentation if it came up and bit them on their homo superior, it seems a tad facile to credit them with much critical acuity on the subject of their mentor and paymaster. Davis Tucker ------------------------------ From: druil!lat@topaz.rutgers.edu (TepperL) Subject: Re: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing Date: 14 Oct 85 22:26:20 GMT I tried reading the first book of the series (Shikasta?) and put it down after the 3rd or 4th chapter. I especially disliked her idea of identifying characters and places with numbers, not names: Planet number 7, agent 23. With numbers, it's harder to remember who's who and what's where. We Earth-people have names for everything, even our numbers: pi, planck's constant, avogadro's number. I agree with Charley Wingate regarding the feeling of self-importance about it all. Larry Tepper {ihnp4|allegra}!druil!lat +1-303-538-1759 ------------------------------ From: nrcvax!terry@topaz.rutgers.edu (Terry Grevstad) Subject: Re: Gormenghast Date: 9 Oct 85 23:42:46 GMT stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA says: >Although I wimped out in the middle of the second volume, Peake's >style was really inspiring. The richness of the stuff made me >pause. I know i will come back and finish it off sometime soon. > >Rolling Stone's special on Sting mentioned that he has the movie >rights to Gormenghast. Gormenghast would make an excellent movie! Gormenghast would make a *lousy* movie! It would have to be about 2 weeks long just to get half the story line in. Maybe you better go back and read the rest of the trilogy before you decide whether or not it would make a good movie. As a set of books, it was okay, interesting, rather ponderous, but imaginative. As a movie it would be really out of place. (Just my $.02 worth...) Terry Grevstad Network Research Corporation ihnp4!nrcvax!terry {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry ------------------------------ From: ehl@Shasta.ARPA Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley Date: 13 Oct 85 18:23:30 GMT "Press Enter _" is a short story, not a novel. It was originally published in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, May 1984. You may also find it in the latest TERRY CARR'S BEST SCIENCE FICTION OF THE YEAR. Elgin Lee UUCP: ..decvax!decwrl!glacier!navajo!ehl old ARPA: ehl@su-navajo.ARPA, ehl@su-score.ARPA new ARPA: ehl@su-navajo.stanford.edu, ehl@su-score.edu ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 1985 08:25:39-EDT (Monday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Amber Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked Corwin's pattern and then destroyed it. First of all, to walk Corwin's pattern supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie his descendant), in which category only Merlin falls. Second, how could he destroy Corwin's pattern? That involves either convincing Corwin to destroy himself in the center of it, or using Merlin's blood, which we know wasn't done (unless he gave blood at college and the blood bank was robbed...:-) ------------------------------ From: druxo!knf@topaz.rutgers.edu (FricklasK) Subject: BEST SCI FI POLL< WITH EXAMPLES Date: 11 Oct 85 16:59:42 GMT I have gotten queries as to my categories for best SF, so I am reposting With examples. (I got my numbering right this time, too.) I would like to compile a list of the best SF and Fantasy novels, as well as opinions for the best first SF novel to read. If all you sf-netters out there would reply to the following questions, I will compile stats and post them to the net in about 3 weeks (that's usually how long it takes for both message and reply to get everywhere and get read by anyone interested.) 1) Best "hard" SF novel? (EXAMPLE: Dune) 2) Best "avant-garde" or "new" SF novel? (EXAMPLE: The Cyberiad by Stanislaw Lem) 3) Best "action" SF novel? (EXAMPLE: The Shape Changer by Keith Laumer) 4) Best fantasy novel? (EXAMPLE: Lord of the Rings) 5) Best First novel? (EXAMPLE: The Time Machine by H.G.Wells) 6) Best of all the above? (or another, if it doesn't fit into any of those categories) (EXAMPLE: Book of the New Sun Trilogy by Gene Wolfe) Note: you can give more than 1 answer to any of the above questions, but they'll get only 1/2 a vote each (for 2, 1/3 for 3, etc.) Please give title, author's name, and if you know it, the year and publisher. If you can't remember the author or the exact title, I'll try to guess, and will send you mail to confirm. Thanks in advance, Ken ...ihnp4!drutx!druxo!knf ------------------------------ From: cisden!Merlyn@topaz.rutgers.edu (Merlyn) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 11 Oct 85 19:14:28 GMT More After-the Holocaust books: Alas, Babylon by ???. Pretty standard. Hiero's Journey by Sterling Lanier. It's been a while, but I think I liked this one. There is a recent sequel, but the original is several years old and probably out of print. Lots of strange critters. The Empire of the East by Fred Saberhagen. Good book, but we're starting to stretch the genre quite a bit here. There's one I read a while back whose title and author both escape me. It's yellow with black lettering and small black sillhouette animals an the cover. It purports to be in a mutant-ridden society where any civilized arts, including reading, are equivalent to magic. Unfortunately the fact that all the creatures use and understand elaborate abbreviations for various groups and cults is only one of the inconsistencies of this book. Reads like the rule book for TSR's atrocious game Gamma World. These were just a few that I hadn't seen mentioned in any other postings. Tommy Phillips trantor!phillips ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 85 10:47 MST From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Big Bugs - any pointers?? I am looking for stories or possibly essay-type discussions about giant insects. Not interested in stories which have giant insects without explanation. I would like to see a good rationalization behind their existence. Can a combination of gravity, atmospheric pressure, different organ structure,etc. allow insects which are close to human size? There are lots of stories with human-size intelligent insects, but I cannot think of any with good biology and physics behind them. Discussion welcome! rusty ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Amazing Stories 10/5 Date: 11 Oct 85 15:38:35 GMT >Ah, but this second episode of Amazing Stories deserves more >comment in passing. Such subtle, delicately nuanced >characterization, not unlike Steve Martin playing Hamlet. The >striving for consistent moral outlook, full of the cogent meanings >and latent ambiguities but rarely found in authentic replicas of >fortune cookies. Motivations of individuals and relationships >between these individuals and events woven into a tapestry >(travesty?) of cause and effect not seen since Heisenberg first >dreamed of an electron farting. And finally, the science; even I, >who am inclined to let minor points go by for the sake of dramatic >or literary license was dumber-struck at the sheer elan with which >Spielberg extended his range of scientific facts and plausibilities >to new, if not outer, limits. > -- Jim Brunet I did not watch all of the episode in question, since I was cooking dinner at the time. However, I did catch the end. The reason I saw the end was that I was intrigued by the howling and laughter coming from the family room where the rest of the family was gathered around it. So I went in. My husband's father, who hates sf and doesn't laugh that much, was practically rolling on the floor. My husband, who loves sf, and who ordinarily demands strict accordance with scientific fact, or at least coherent logical format from his sf, was doing likewise. My daughter, 12, could not speak--she just pointed to the screen gestured for me to join them. In most sf, I agree with you, things like characterization, scientific accuracy, and so on, are important. But this was a FARCE. Different rules apply. The important thing was that everyone in front of that set had FUN. I think the thing worked--along the lines of "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers." Sue Brezden Real World: Room 1B17 Net World: ihnp4!drutx!slb AT&T Information Systems 11900 North Pecos Westminster, Co. 80234 (303)538-3829 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 85 12:16:00 PST From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA Subject: --- BLAKE'S 7 --- This is a good SF series from Terry Nation and the BBC, being broadcast on my local PBS station. Has anyone else seen it? Does anyone have any discussion on this show? It is decidedly BBC, which means that special effects aren't up to what the American audience is used to, but the story so far (2 episodes) has been excellent in my own opinion. Richard Hartman max.hartman@ames-vmsb ------------------------------ From: leadsv!sas@topaz.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart) Subject: Re: SF on TV Date: 11 Oct 85 15:45:45 GMT pugh@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > As for the Misfits of Science all I can say is that I liked Flag > and Ferretface together as the bad guys, but the show lacked a > sense of reality. It was all too hokey to even suspend disbelief. > Perhaps it needs the Batman/A Team outlook, i.e. complete camp. > We'll see, but if it is going to compete with the Twilight Zone, > it will need some strong scripts and not the old formulae. > > Jon Actually the Misfits of Science is going be on Friday's at 9:00. So they will be competing with Dallas on CBS and Different Strokes and Benson on ABC (This is according to the fall preview issue of TV Guide.) I guess NBC is trying to fill their time slot with a show that isn't trying to compete with Dallas for the same audience, but going for the younger audience that may watch Different Strokes. Since NBC cancelled Different Strokes, maybe they feel that it won't give them any competition. The head of NBC is excited about Misfits. But all that aside, the show would be a lot better if they put more camp into it. And they are definitely going to have to balance the team out better. The Shrinker and the Freezer have very little effectiveness in life or death situations and only showed their powers at a crucial time, while Johny B, the Electro-Blaster, and the Telekinitic Teen were throwing there powers around all the time. So far they're the only ones who used real teamwork. I hope the rest will soon form a real team. Scott A. Stewart LMSC - Sunnyvale ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 85 08:31 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Leonnard Nimoy at Creation Con In his speach at the Creation Con in LA this weekend, Mr. Nimoy did not provide any concrete details on the plot of STIV except that the story would begin where STIII left off, thus completing the "Wrath of Khan" trilogy and leaving the slate clean for future stories. He said that filming would begin in February for a December '86 release date, and the the first draft of the script (by two writers whose names I can't recall) was presently being rewritten by Nicholos Meyer and Harve Bennett. (The best news I've heard so far.) However, his answers to questions ranged from "that's certainly possible"s that sounded like "Yes"s to "that could be"s that sounded like "No"s. In my opinion (which does not reflect in any way official information or the Star Trek Welcommittee's views) Nimoy indicated that: 1) the story involved time travel, 2) Sarek and Amanda would be back, 3) while the Bird of Prey would be involved, the Enterprise would come back, 4) Kirstie Alley would not return as Saavik. No one, in either question and answer session, asked him if Eddie Murphy would be in the film! Lisa ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc. Date: 12 Oct 85 13:22:23 GMT Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >Let's not forget the Uncertainty Principle in the context of matter >recording/ duplication. A simple way of stating this is the >following: > "When dealing with sub-atomic particles (electrons, etc.), the >more accurately the velocity of said particle is known, the less >accurately its position is known, and visa versa". > >So, if you know the position of an electron to infinite precision, >you know nothing about its velocity. This kind of screws up the >copying process. I would hope that the copier was awfully precise. Well, actually, since the person himself constitutes an observing system, it's only necessary to be as precise in observation as the human body is of itself. My guess is that this is going to be (by most standards) quite sloppy, especially as the need for real precision is going to be concentrated in relatively small volume. The atom-by-atom structure of bone, for instance, is likely to be of little importance compared to its gross structure. There are lots of fluid areas where we surely do not care where the water molecules are (as long as we have them at the right temperature-- a VERY low precision measure of energy). So from that point of view, my estimate is that the problem is not that difficult. The chief problem is simply acquiring the information without destroying it too soon, and then finding a place to put it all. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Oct 85 0846-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #406 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 17 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 406 Today's Topics: Books - Campbell & Clarke & Lanier & Vonnegut (3 msgs) & Feminist Authors (4 msgs) & End of the World Stories & Time Travel Stories, Films - Star Trek, Television - Hitchcock Presents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hound!rfg@topaz.rutgers.edu (R.GRANTGES) Subject: Re: Setting the record wrong about Campbell... Date: 15 Oct 85 03:26:55 GMT A cat can look at a king. Its a free country and everyone is entitled to their opinion, no mater how wrong headed. However, nothing midgets can say will alter the real stature of JWC, who, more than any other single person, made science fiction what it is today - one of themore popular topics on the net. Sorry to butt into your private harangue, but I hate to see people deluded and mislead (unless I do it my self, I guess). Anyhow, I feel fortunate to have started when I did (circa '45) and only wish I had started earlier. But you see, I never might have started at all if I hadn't gone to boy scout camp and burned the book of the kid reading pulp trash - then carefully fished it out of the coals and, like, wow! Not that he was reading the big A, but I quickly located that as soon as I got back to civilization and raided the drug store for this new found literature. Did you ever read Amazing Stories? The Shaver Mysteries? Read some somewhere. That was SF before JWC. Dick Grantges hound!rfg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 20:58:38 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Computer self-duplication To: nep.pgelhausen@AMES-VMSB.ARPA >From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA >Point to ponder: To record the memory of a computer, the machine >must IN IT'S MEMORY have the position of each electron in itself. >I believe that there are not enough electrons in a finite space to >be able to store (as memory) the positions of each electron making >up the memory. This may be necessary to duplicate a person (assuming it is possible to at all) but to duplicate a computer all you need to do is construct identical or equivalent logic elements (which need not be atom for atom identical) and make sure each memory location contains the same bit as the original had there. This is best developed in Arthur C. Clarke's _The_City_and_the_Stars_, in which a city and its controlling computer and a starship are preserved unchanged for over a billion (thousand million) years by the computer constantly checking everything, including its own memory, against its redundant memory. Something can decay only if several copies of a given bit in the computer's memory simultaneously change, which is very unlikely even over eons. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: hou2g!scott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Colonel'K) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 15 Oct 85 12:27:23 GMT >Hiero's Journey by Sterling Lanier. It's been a while, but I think >I liked this one. There is a recent sequel, but the original is >several years old and probably out of print. Lots of strange >critters. > Tommy Phillips > trantor!phillips Hiero's Journey is still in print. Apparently, there was a recent print run to coincide with the paperback release of the sequel, The Unforsaken Heiro. Scott J. Berry ihnp4!hou2g!scott ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 15 Oct 85 15:48:30 EDT From: sclafani (michael sclafani) @ cmu-psy-a Subject: Story reference/amazing stories Harrison Bergeron, by Kurt Vonnegut, presents a world where all people are equal. Equality is the lowest common denominator. Announcers have speech impediments, athletes are crippled, and so on. Anyone gifted in an area is "handicapped." Beautiful people wear ugly masks, strong people have weights tied on to them, etc. Harrison Bergeron carries the handicaps of three people, and is still not quite "equal." It's the sort of short story that high school english teachers like to use. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 13:15 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Vonnegut That story where everyone must be equal, so they dropped everyone to the worst case was Welcome to the Monkey House by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. I saw a show on PBS years { & years } ago that had all this as seen by a time traveling space fellow. I think he was bopping from story to story, but, as I said, it was a long time ago. Anyone else remember this show/movie? Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 16:59:50 MDT From: e-smith@utah-cs.arpa (Eric L. Smith) Subject: Re: Amazing(ly Stupid) Stories I believe the story about forced equality was "Harrison Bergeron" (sp?) by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. (sp?), in which the protagonist (after whom the story is named) is forced to wear heavy weights to compensate for his strength and good looks, and wear headphones which receive a government broadcast of loud noises to distract him in order to compensate for his intelligence. Also in the story, people with speech impediments were T.V. announcers, etc. All of these handicaps were, of course, administered by the "Handicapper General". I think the story was in the collection, "Welcome to the Monkey House". ------------------------------ From: utastro!ethan@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ethan Vishniac) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 13 Oct 85 20:28:46 GMT > I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors > and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of > sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some > recommendations from sisters or brothers out there. Mary Malmros You may already have these, but Ursula Leguin and Joanna Russ are the first names to come to mind. The former is probably my favorite author. The latter is pretty good. One other book is "Native Tongue" by Suzette Elgin. Ethan Vishniac {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan ethan@astro.UTEXAS.EDU Department of Astronomy University of Texas ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 1985 19:01 EDT (Tue) From: "Leonard N. Foner" Subject: Feminist authors If you're interested in this sort of thing, take a look at _How to Suppress Women's Writing_, by Joanna Russ. [Citation at end.] It's a very angry book. It'll probably make you angry to read it, too; it sure did for me. Russ writes SF and "mundane" fiction and essays, and teaches English and Literature at the college level. In this book, she details the tactics, sometimes accidental, sometimes deliberate, that have been used to cover up, belittle, miscategorize, and otherwise lose the contribution of half of the human race's literary output for the last few hundred years. I highly recommend it. It is extensively footnoted, with a good bibliography, and hence will give you many other jumping-off points in thinking about feminism and writing in general. Russ talks about SF only incidentally, since (at least in recent years) that particular field has been more receptive to female writers---at least a little. (One reason for this may be that people don't often teach courses about literary "classics" that includes anything from modern SF.) Her main points span just about every literary category, rather than being limited to SF. The cover to the book is what grabbed me initially, with a "buy this book" sort of reaction. It's got lots of writing in red on the front, with little black letters interspersed, in parentheses, and runs: "She didn't write it. (But if it's clear she did the deed...) She wrote it, but she shouldn't have. (It's political, sexual, masculine, feminist). She wrote it, but look what she wrote about. (The bedroom, the kitchen, her family. Other women!) She wrote it, but she wrote only one of it. ("_Jane Eyre_. Poor dear, that's all she ever...") She wrote it, but she isn't really an artist, and it isn't really art. (It's a thriller, a romance, a children's book. It's sci fi!) She wrote it, but she had help. (Robert Browning. Branwell Bronte. Her own "masculine side.") She wrote it, but she's an anomaly. (Woolf. With Leonard's help...) She wrote it, BUT... How to Suppress Women's Writing by Joanna Russ" Again, highly recommended, if you like angry, scholarly looks at writing and women. Citation: University of Texas Press, PO Box 7819, Austin, TX 78712, 1983, ISBN 0-292-72445-4 (-6 for the hardback), LibCong PN471.R87. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 15 Oct 85 16:40:23-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: Feminist sf/fantasy To: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Well, there are a number of authors who write sf/fantasy in a feminist vein. Surprisingly (:-) most of them seem to be women. (Also surprisingly, more seems to be fantasy than sf, but that's another flame topic). The canonical authors are Joanna Russ, Pamela Sergeant, and Vonda McIntyre. Sergeant also edited (at least) two anthologies entitled Women_of_Wonder and More_Women_of_Wonder which showcase sf/fant stories by female authors (most with a feminist bent (I think...it's been a while since I read them, but the one's that stick in my mind are)). From male authors, I can't think of anyone who is *consistently* feminist (although few (that I read) are *consistently* sexist). Palmer's _Emergence_, Panshin's Rite_of_Passage, Heinlein's _Friday_ (?), and much of Varley's work contain strong female protagonists presented in a largely favorable light. Evan Kirshenbaum evan@SU-CSLI.ARPA {ucbvax|decvax}!decwrl!glacier!evan ------------------------------ Date: Tue 15 Oct 85 20:14:38-EDT From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: feminist SF On the subject of feminist SF After two false starts, I've decided that I'm not competent to offer advice about this matter. Hence, let me suggest that a possible starting point might be Bradley: Sword & Sorceress I, II, &c a series of collections of "heroic fantasy" stories. These are fairly diverse, and give some introduction to many respected authors in this vein. On a slightly different tack, here are some works that make one think deeply about sexuality and its necessary (or unnecessary) consequences Sturgeon: Venus Plus X Wyndham: Consider Her Ways LeGuin: The Left Hand of Darkness Finally, may I recommend the best feminist work of fiction in my library (even though it isn't SF) Wells: Ann Veronica Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: dcdwest!benson@topaz.rutgers.edu (Peter Benson) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF Date: 14 Oct 85 22:14:27 GMT Earth Abides by George Stewart is a great man-in-the-rubble story. The catastrophe is non-nuclear. The post-catastrophe re-building is insightful and interesting. Peter Benson ITT Defense Communications Division (619)578-3080 10060 Carroll Canyon Road decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!benson San Diego, CA 92131 ucbvax!sdcsvax!dcdwest!benson ------------------------------ Subject: Time tripping Date: 15 Oct 85 18:08:58 PDT (Tue) From: Dave Godwin One of my favorite time travel type books is Thrice Upon a Time, by James Hogan. There is no actual movement of people or objects in this story, just data transmission. The science is solid, reminding me rather of Clarke, and the story itself is quite well done. I really can't tell much about the book without a spoiler. My other favorite time travel story is The Technicolor Time Machine, by Harry Harrison (of Stainless Steel Rat fame). In this bizarre epic, a movie company ( Stupendpous Pictures ?? ) uses a newly devised time machine to go back to the age of the Vikings to film ( effectively over night ) a masterwork that will hopefully save the company. Really funny stuff. Several occasions of people running into themselves at the same point in time. I remember a scene where the location producer gets annoyed at another version of himself, and runs off yelling "I thinks I can do that to me, do I ?! Hah, I'll show me !!" Dave ------------------------------ Cc: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@lll-mfe.ARPA Subject: Re: A Star Trek Rumor? Date: 15 Oct 85 13:29:10 PDT (Tue) From: Jim Hester At the Con in Los Angeles (Universal City) on Oct 13, the only comments by Leonard Nimoy were that the next movie would be the end of a trilogy beginning with STII, and thus it would take up with the characters on Vulcan with a Klingon ship. The multiple Star Fleet charges against Kirk & Co will be dealt with. Leonard said that, as STIII evidenced, they are trying to return to the old spirit of Star Trek, with some humor. He did not say the Enterprise would return, but his remarks on the subject (I can't remember quotes) were VERY positive. Madgel (sp?) Barret-Roddenberry remarked on the unlikiness of the Enterprise crew touring the Universe in one of the new "pregnant guppies." Nimoy remarked that he would like to see a return of Harry Mudd (James Doohan has also said this in the past). He also mentioned Tribbles and something else as possible future subjects. A rumor among the fans was that STIV involves time travel, but Nimoy only commented that "that might be interesting." In general, all the questions about the next movie can be summed up as follows: Q: Will X happen in STIV? A: That would be interesting. Q: Will X be appearing in STIV? A: That would be nice. Q: Will STIV deal with the issue of X? A: That's an issue we may have to give some thought to. The major thrust of Nimoy's talk was the fact that he does not now, or ever did, want to be disassociated with Spock. The rumors that he required (in his contract for STII) that Spock die are completely false. In fact, it was not even his idea; someone called him up one day and asked "How would you like a fantastic death scene?" The rumor about the contract was so strong that the producer of Paramount Studios believed it and at one point, without even checking the contract (located in the very building he was in), dismissed Nimoy as the director of STIII on the grounds that anyone who wanted his character killed could not be strongly enough in love with Star Trek to do an acceptable job directing. The book "I am not Spock" is titled thus only because they wanted a short, catchy title with the word "Spock" in it, and that title was the title of one of the chapters in the book. (That chapter, also, did not disown Spock. I forget the exact meaning of the title.) Nimoy is one hell of a speaker. If you get the chance, DON'T MISS HIM! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 20:50:22 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Re: Hitchock Presents To: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA >From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA >Once she got him out of the hospital, why did she keep carrying on >with the charade?? (I'm talking about to the point of having him in >her house siting on her bed and STILL saying "Everything's fine, >you'll be safe here.") The impression I had is that she was not convinced that he was really guilty until he started acting really rude near the end. After all, he would have been punished far more had she left him in the hospital. He probably would have gotten the death penalty, and the really nasty thing about the death penalty is the months of anticipation. Even life imprisonment would have been crueler than shooting him. ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 17 Oct 85 0910-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #407 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 17 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 407 Today's Topics: Books - McKinley & Phillips & Feminist Authors & Time Travel Stories & Doc Savage, Miscellaneous - Matter Transmission (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@topaz.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Re: Books by Robin McKinley Date: 14 Oct 85 14:00:32 GMT I agree with you about HERO AND THE CROWN and THE BLUE SWORD, but your failure to mention BEAUTY can only mean you haven't read it. Please do. It is an astounding work. skzb ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Query: Stories by Peter Phillips? Date: 15 Oct 85 12:46:38 GMT > From: cad.cs.cmu.edu!mjc > I have just finished a short story by Peter Phillips called > "Manna" and would like to find other stories or novels by him. > [...] Does anyone know in which anthologies I could find other > stories by this author, and if he ever wrote any books? > > PLEASE NOTE: This is to be considered a personal challenge to jmb. > Please do not answer to the net until he has posted his answer. I > don't really want to cause another net flood. (Mail is always > welcome, though.) I certainly can't turn down a personal challenge, but be advised that if I'm caught in a work break like I was the other month, you may well wait for a month or more for your answer. Anyways, on to Peter Phillips. He was a British newspaperman and author, with only short stories (at least in the sf field) to his fiction credit. I've been able to scare up info on 20 stories. Format is: "" (editor's name) "At No Extra Cost" Marvel Science Stories (8/51) THE BEST SCIENCE FICTION STORIES: 1952 (ed. Everett Bleiler & Ted Dikty) "c/o Mr. Makepeace" Fantasy & Science Fiction (2/54) THE DARK SIDE (ed. Damon Knight) OPERATION FUTURE (ed. Groff Conklin) "Counter Charm" Slant [a British magazine?] (Spr/51) FIFTY SHORT SCIENCE FICTION TALES (ed. Isaac Asimov & Groff Conklin) "Criteria" Planet Stories (5/52) [not anthologized] "Dreams Are Sacred" Astounding Science Fiction (9/48) THE ASTOUNDING-ANALOG READER, VOLUME 2 (ed. Harry Harrison & Brian Aldiss) IMAGINATION UNLIMITED (ed. Bleiler & Dikty) [abridged in Britain as MEN OF SPACE AND TIME] SPECTRUM 3 (ed. Kingsley Amis & Robert Conquest) "Field Study" Galaxy Science Fiction (4/51) THE GALAXY READER OF SCIENCE FICTION (ed. H.L. Gold) "First Man in the Moon" Fantasy & Science Fiction (9/54) Science Fantasy (5/56) [not anthologized] "Lila" Startling Stories (4/53) [not anthologized] "Lost Memory" Galaxy Science Fiction (5/52) THE COMING OF THE ROBOTS (ed. Sam Moskowitz) CONTACT (ed. Noel Keyes) THE GALAXY SCIENCE FICTION OMNIBUS (ed. H.L. Gold) GATEWAY TO TOMORROW (ed. John Carnell) [British publication only] SCIENCE FICTION TERROR TALES (ed. Groff Conklin) THE SECOND GALAXY READER OF SCIENCE FICTION (ed. Gold) THEMES IN SCIENCE FICTION (ed. Leo P. Kelley) "Manna" Astounding Science Fiction (2/49) BIG BOOK OF SCIENCE FICTION (ed. Conklin) [h/c only] A SCIENCE FICTION ARGOSY (ed. Knight) "Next Stop, the Moon" New Worlds Science Fiction (1/58) [not anthologized] "P-Plus" Astounding Science Fiction (8/49) [not anthologized] "Plagairist" New Worlds Science Fiction (Sum/50) FUTURE TENSE (ed. Kendall F. Crossen) "She Who Laughs" Galaxy Science Fiction (4/52) ASSIGNMENT IN TOMORROW (ed. Frederik Pohl) "Sylvia" Fantasy Fiction (6/53) [not anthologized] "University" Galaxy Science Fiction (4/53) THE SECOND GALAXY READER OF SCIENCE FICTION (ed. Gold) "Unknown Quantity" New Worlds Science Fiction (#5/49) THE BEST FROM NEW WORLDS SCIENCE FICTION (ed. John Carnell) [British publication only] NO PLACE LIKE EARTH (ed. Carnell) [British h/c only] "Variety Quest" Infinity Science Fiction (6/56) [not anthologized] "The Warning" Fantasy & Science Fiction (9/53) BEYOND THE BARRIERS OF SPACE AND TIME (ed. Judith Merril) "Well I'll be Hexed" Fantastic Adventures (8/50) [not anthologized] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: decuac!avolio@topaz.rutgers.edu (Frederick M. Avolio) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 15 Oct 85 16:55:51 GMT I would think that most all of Marian Z. Bradley's books might fill the bill, too. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 22:18:40 EDT From: Keith F. Lynch Subject: Time travel To: nep.pgelhausen@AMES-VMSB.ARPA >From: nep.pgelhausen@ames-vmsb.ARPA >Has anyone any thoughts on these three distinctions? Has anyone >seen a story where all three are brought into play? (Objective and >Subjective time are dealt with frequently, but Meta time seems to >be ignored (and rightly so...it would be a difficult concept....can >you now imagine traveling in Meta time??? You could travel to >(objective) 1800 by FIRST traveling back a month in Meta time, to >"before" the barrier was put up...)) Isaac Asimov's _End_of_Eternity_ deals with all three. An interesting twist is that meta-time seems to be circular. This is never made explicit in the story, but is the only way I could find to understand it. This story also involves a similar time barrier. Note that some concepts of time travel do not require this concept. For instance Heinlein's time travel (in _Door_Into_Summer, _Time_Enough_For_Love_, and _Number_of_the_Beast_) always seems to be in one timeline, i.e. whatever happened happened. Time travel in Star Trek seems to work the same way, as it does in H. G. Wells _The_Time_Machine_. Also, there is the stack theory of time, as presented in James Hogan's _Thrice_Upon_a_Time_, and in John Boyd's _Last_Starship_From_Earth_. In this theory, changing the past simply obliterates whatever future comes from the past having not been changed in that way at that time. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Bantam Doc Savage reprints Date: 15 Oct 85 13:00:04 GMT > From: umcp-cs!chris (Chris Torek) > Speaking of Doc Savage, anyone know what happened to the Bantam > reprints? `The All White Elf' and `The Running Skeleton' was due > out in July as I recall.... There's good news and there's bad news... The bad news is that Bantam decided to cancel the Doc Savage series. The good news is that due to a deluge of letters, the series has been un-cancelled. There apparently is a rather small, but very loyal crowd of Doc fans out there, who complain rather vociferously whenever Bantam tries to stop publishing the Doc's. However, they may take a while as they are trying to work out a better package (perhaps three-in-one). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 15 Oct 85 17:56 PDT From: Kdavidadeleye.es@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re:Matter Transmission It seems to me there are two fundamental approaches to matter transmission. One involves sending a map of the target, the other involves sending the territory of the target, i.e. the target itself. The distinction between the two is possibly critical when the target is alive (i.e. organic in the sense of life as it is loosely defined on Earth) and more so when the target is alive and possessed of that attribute we call consciousness. Consider, The MAP: If you're going to send maps then the essential problem begins to formulate itself in terms of accurate representations. The target needs to be scanned to a level that is pattern-preserving of structures, energies and elements that are 'descriptive' of even the subtlest energies of the target. There are a ton of interesting questions using a technology built from this approach. For instance do you do a destructive or non-destructive scan ? Once you have the target scanned into buffer storage startling possibilities emerge. Imagine buffer-storage as a form of static immortality (or long term storage in case of incurable disease, unlivable conditions, or a pocket-size way to move a colony ship at sub-light velocities across interstellar distances, - the population of Manhattan in a device the size of a refigerator, microwave oven or pack of cigarettes (choose your storage technology). Imagine Dynamic Genetic Programming: With a scanned target you can do a literal search of ALL gene strings, edit out large-scale features like acne (digital facial), scars, re-build fingerprints, make structures larger, smaller etc. It could get interesting. You could make copies though the fidelity of the isomorphs will instantly begin to depart from that of the original as its experience stream will be different. All experience shapes us, you and I would be different in large and small ways if our experience flows had been markedly different. Suppose you sent the map and were sophisticated enough to edit out its memory on a selective basis, or introduce completely fabricated memories. Life begins to get dangerous, which edition are you ? and how do you know ? The question that is always asked if 'posting' is done this way is universal "Is it really me or a decimal-place copy ?" This is a question that neither copy nor observer can decide once scanning technology crosses a similarity threshold in terms of the precision of representation. Consider the problem: If you're scanned non-destructively then the topology of the issue is obvious. Barring copies, there are two of you and the interesting question we can only speculate about at this point is what's the status of 'your' awareness ? Are there two separate consciousness's ?, one in two location ?s, one in two locations that rapidly/slowly becomes two ? Telepathy ?If the answer is that IMMEDIATELY (delta-t for observation >>>0) there are two (albeit identical in composition and behaviour) consciousness's then there are grounds for concern. Simply put, a decimal-place copy ain't me, and if you did a destructive scan to get it 'Ioriginal' am kaput despite the subsequent experiences of my wife. friends and 'Iisomorph'. More simply put, I don't like being kaput, no matter how neatly matters continue, or in slightly more formal terms , as Mayank Prakash quotes it: >> :"'Having the same indentity (identity?!)' is not an equivalence relation."...>just because it looks like me, talks like me, smells like me, acts like me, and thinks it is me doesn't make it me." The needed experiment requires 'telepathic' monitoring of targets and 'copies' involved in non-destructive scans. Consider, on the other hand, : The TERRITORY: This approach says simply, don't mess with the target. Move the space-time the target occupies and you've moved the target. Neat, Not simple, but No blackmail and NO DOUBTS. Physics (c. 1985) is still slightly out of reach, though it appears the theoretical basis for 'looking' this way is currently extant. The technologies and disciplines required to build a scanning device that would be operable on inanimate objects are here, albeit in their infancies. IF SDI survives and is successful in driving optical computing into hard forms and practical devices we'll have a grasp on the start of computing power required to not just design, but build devices like this. As long as 'post yer self for dinner at 7pm (Hong Kong time)' means sending by map, I ain't budging. When I go to dinner 'I' really want to get there. Though I can imagine companies competing (in, say, long-haul transportation - ?Earth/Moon, ?Earth/Mars, Los Angeles/Sidney?) saying: "Why leave her/him alone ?, Send a clone. One hour delivery time guaranteed. Destruct guaranteed." or "When you absolutely gotta be there, go yourself. One hour transit time. Guaranteed arrival. Insurance available." A last comment on social uses is obvious: scan target, edit buffer, activate serial number iterate and insert sub-routines, call 'wear-and-tear' function (cosmetic programming) , print n copies (Money, security keys, etc.) The limiting factors will (as usual) arise from the same four corners (process energy costs, implementation and payoff economics, technical imagination and motivation) My bet is, given the pulse and vectors of the state-of-the art that posting 'maps' will be here slightly ahead of posting 'territory'. The thing is, we already 'post' maps, albeit simple ones. ------------------------------ From: mit-eddie!jbs@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jeff Siegal) Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc. Date: 15 Oct 85 04:51:20 GMT mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >>Let's not forget the Uncertainty Principle in the context of >>matter recording/ duplication. A simple way of stating this is >>the following: >> "When dealing with sub-atomic particles (electrons, etc.), the >>more accurately the velocity of said particle is known, the less >>accurately its position is known, and visa versa". >> >>So, if you know the position of an electron to infinite precision, >>you know nothing about its velocity. This kind of screws up the >>copying process. I would hope that the copier was awfully >>precise. > >Well, actually, since the person himself constitutes an observing >system, it's only necessary to be as percise in observation as the >human body is of itself. My guess is that this is going to be (by >most standards) quite sloppy, especially as the need for real >precision is going to be concentrated in relatively small volume. >The atom-by-atom structure of bone, for instance, is likely to be >of little importance compared to its gross structure. There are >lots of fluid areas where we surely do not care where the water >molecules are (as long as we have them at the right temperature-- a >VERY low precision measure of energy). So from that point of view, >my estimate is that the problem is not that difficult. The chief >problem is simply acquiring the information without destroying it >too soon, and then finding a place to put it all. > >Charley Wingate This is pure nonsense. So what if the atom-by-atom structure of bone is or is not reproduced. In fact, you could still achieve human matter transmission without sending bone at all. It is the thoughts and ideas, contained in the mind, which is important and this is the part that CAN NOT be measured with sufficient accuracy. Period. No if's and's or but's (sorry for the cliche). (sigh, let me repeat myself) There is an absoulte, lower limit on the accuracy with which one can measure both the position and momentium of any particle (an electron). Specifically, the uncertainty (product of uncertainty of position and uncertainty of momentum) can be no less than h (Planc's constant). One can not hope to reproduce the state of a human brain since doing so would require reproducing electric impulses and energy states of atoms/molucules. It is not enough to know that "there are a few electrons flying around." You must also know where they are and where thay are going. Jeff Siegal - MIT EECS ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Oct 85 0943-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #408 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 408 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & Hubbard & Zelazny & End of the World Stories & Feminist Authors (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel & Star Wars & Typos & Matter Transmission (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 08:49 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: End of the World & Damnation Alley He know's when you are sleeping, He know's when you're awake. He know's when you've been bad or good, So be good, for goodness sake. And he's coming to your house. Who does he work for? What's in that red suit? And what is that "magic dust" he uses to get those reindeer to fly? (For more on this, read Santa Claus versus SPIDER in Ellison's The Beast That Shouted Love at the Heart of the World. My favorite part is the footnote at the end. Spiro who? |-) Jon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 85 03:48:30 edt From: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix Subject: Replies > Date: Fri, 11 Oct 85 18:28:52 CDT > From: William LeFebvre > Subject: "The Invaders Plan" by L.Ron Hubbard > > It's out. I've actually seen a copy in a B. Dalton's (or was it > Walden's? --same thing). It is 500+ pages, standard hardback > size book, but the typing is very large (about 12 point, I think) > and the interline spacing is generous, which compensates for the > number of pages. I wasn't that interested in the book, so I > didn't bother looking at the price. An interesting aside: one of > the preliminary pages (between the front cover and the start of > the story) contains a list of other things published by Hubbard. > The list is rather long, and I assume this was inserted by the > publisher to encourage people to buy other books from them. This > would imply to me that there ARE older Hubbard stories still being > printed (since the only other book he's written recently, to my > knowledge, is "Battlefield Earth"). Another one of these pages > had a list of all the books' names in the proposed dekalogy* (yes, > it's even footnoted in the book). Pretty intense. > > If I can find just-released Hubbard, why can't I find > just-released Varley? Because John Varley doesn't have Bridge Publications spending millions of dollars of the Scientologist's hard earned money :-) to promote the book, get it stuck in every bookstore, and put double page ads in every trade and national magazine from coast to coast. Hubbard and Bridge Publications represent (in my opinion) an insidious attempt to redefine SF and Fandom into Hubbard's own mold. Their contests for new writers and soon-to-be published magazine are brutal attacks on the currently weakened SF mainstream, and an attempt to re-legitimize Hubbard as a founding father of SF. You should boycott Hubbard and Bridge Publications for the same reason you don't buy Dolphin skin coats, not because the coat isn't a good product, but because the producers are committing an immoral act. Obviously, this represents my opinion, and I'm sure there are lots of people who disagree, most of whom have no connection with Hubbard, BP, or the "Church" of Scientology. But consider what a company must think of you if they believe they can buy your tastes? P.S. Is there any truth to the rumor that the Scientologists wanted to "buy" Hubbard a Hugo for Battlefield Earth by having every member of the Church buy a supporting membership in ConStellation, but they missed a deadline? Libel suits to /dev/null... James Turner ARPA ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA UUCP {decvax,sri-unix,ima,linus}!cca!ringwld!jmturn MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 08:49 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: End of the World & Damnation Alley About Zelazny's Damnation Alley, the book was far fetched but fun and the movie was god awful pathetic. Jan Michael Vincent fighting the poorly matted giant scorpions was a classic in terrible movie making. The best thing about the flick was the truck. I got to see it a few years ago while I was driving down Highway 101 in Hollywood. It was parked at a gas station right off the freeway. It had been stripped down, but still had the fake rocket launcher on top. In case you have been watching too much tv recently, it has been appearing with some road wimpier turkey in a transmission commercial, or something like that. I cringed and hit the mute button every time it came on. The greatest invention of all time, by the way, is the remote control mute for tv's. Now we need an automatic one. Have advertisers been buying up the patents and preventing it's sale? I wouldn't doubt it. Probably is the Illuminatus behind it all. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 08:49 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: End of the World & Damnation Alley I mention again, the *best* collection of end of the whatever stories is Catastrophes, edited by Isaac Asimov, Martin Greenberg and Charles Waugh. It has several categories, such as end of the universe, end of the galaxy, end of the world, end of mankind, and end of civilization. All good stories by good writers. A favorite of mine was in the end of mankind (or was it civilization?) section. It was called Dark Benediction and the book was worth it for this story. It reminded me of The Omega Man, where disease makes everyone into creatures that *must* spread the disease by touching you, and our hero is the last pure man. Great stuff. Jon ------------------------------ From: uvacs!rwl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Lubinsky) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 14 Oct 85 20:43:51 GMT > From: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA > I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors > and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of > sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some > recommendations from sisters or brothers out there. Antifeminists > please note: I'm not going to argue with you people, so don't > bother to flame me. You read your kind of literature and I'll > read mine. I understand that Marion Zimmer Bradley has been into this topic, but I've gotten the impression that she gets pretty soapboxy. I don't know if you're into tracts; I'm not. Try Ursula K. Leguin; she may not be a feminist, but she is a humanist. I like her stories, especially her sf. She's into ``social sf'' -- for example, my favorite, ``The Left Hand of Darkness''. This is a novel that really plays with your sense of gender bias, set on a world where the natives are hermaphrodites which may cycle (physically) to either masculine or feminine. It's a good, satisifying read. Sorry to say, I can't think of many male sf author that don't have a Boy Scout's view of either the opposite sex or any kind of sex. However, I do think that Samuel R. Delaney has never written ``sexist chaff''. Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Feminist authors Date: 16 Oct 85 03:53:52 GMT FONER%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA writes: >If you're interested in this sort of thing, take a look at _How to >Suppress Women's Writing_, by Joanna Russ. [Citation at end.] > >It's a very angry book. It'll probably make you angry to read it, >too; it sure did for me. Russ writes SF and "mundane" fiction and >essays, and teaches English and Literature at the college level. >In this book, she details the tactics, sometimes accidental, >sometimes deliberate, that have been used to cover up, belittle, >miscategorize, and otherwise lose the contribution of half of the >human race's literary output for the last few hundred years. > >I highly recommend it. It is extensively footnoted, with a good >bibliography, and hence will give you many other jumping-off points >in thinking about feminism and writing in general. Russ talks >about SF only incidentally, since (at least in recent years) that >particular field has been more receptive to female writers---at >least a little. (One reason for this may be that people don't >often teach courses about literary "classics" that includes >anything from modern SF.) Her main points span just about every >literary category, rather than being limited to SF. Another book on the same subject is _Silences_ by Tillie Olsen. Olsen does not write SF, and she's not as agressively feminist as Joanna Russ (for one thing, she does not write kill-the-men stories). Its tone is more sorrow than anger. _Silences_ will probably be hard to find in a bookstore, but any reasonably good library is likely to have it. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ From: proper!judith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Judith Abrahms) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 15 Oct 85 09:13:14 GMT smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes: > I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors >and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of >sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some >recommendations ... I'd send you mail, but I can't use the path you give. James Tiptree, Jr., is a woman & a hell of a good SF writer. I'd call her a feminist as well. She's published several collections: Ten Thousand Light Years From Home, Star Songs of an Old Primate, Out of the Everywhere, Warm Worlds and Otherwise. Also a fine novel, Up the Walls of the World, which you might especially like: one of the main characters is a black female programmer who becomes quite a bit more than that. She has a new novel out, which I haven't seen yet, called Brightness Falls from the Air. Judith Abrahms {ucbvax,ihnp4}!dual!proper!judith ------------------------------ From: rtp47!throopw@topaz.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: small essay on time and it's aspects.... Date: 14 Oct 85 18:12:20 GMT The referenced posting defined objective time, subjective time, and meta-time. I note that meta-time has been treated in several stories, a notable one being "The End of Eternity" by Issac Asimov. However, I find that the introduction of Meta-time is the tip of an infinite-regress iceberg. Meta-time is simply a "higher order" objective time. As mentioned, if one could travel through meta-time, there "ought" to to be a meta-subjective time and a meta-meta-time, and so on and on. Nobody that I know of has treated this notion. I personally think that the old notion that "there are only three reasonable amounts of things... zero of them, one of them, or an infinite number of them" has a lot of merit. Therefore, I'd enjoy seeing a treatment of (what I see as) an infinite heirarchy of "objective time-lines". On the other hand, it seems much simpler and more convincing to assume that there is only one objective time, and stories that assume this seem more plausible to me for this reason. Not that many time-travel stories are very plausible... most suffer from even simpler flaws. Wayne Throop at Data General, RTP, NC !mcnc!rti-sel!rtp47!throopw ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@topaz.rutgers.edu (john) Subject: Re: Further Evidence apon the accuraccy Date: 14 Oct 85 17:31:00 GMT >Augie: "And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only > Imperial stormtroopers are so precise. > Considering that sandpeople fight by jumping up and down waving a weapon and smashing it into their opponents head, it doesn't take much to be considered more precise. It probably meant that two consecutive shots hit the same side of the sand crawler. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 85 08:35:15 PDT From: Dave Suess Subject: Typo in "Mote in God's Eye" Kenn Barry wrote that the SF Book Club edition has the typo (which Niven must regularly correct at signings): I have the regular Simon & Schuster edition, and the typo is there, as well, the last sentence of Chapter 50, on p. 465: the last word should be "spaced," not "spared." (Niven corrected mine, as well, and initialed it "LVCN" ?!) Dave Suess ... zeus@aerospace.arpa ------------------------------ From: h-sc1!samson@topaz.rutgers.edu (gregory samson) Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc. (uncertainty) Date: 15 Oct 85 18:29:47 GMT So it doesn't matter that the water molecules are all in the same place, as long as they're water and they have the same average kinetic energy? Not quite... imagine what might happen if a couple of very energetic water molecules happened to be transmitted through right next to some of your DNA. Mutagens, anyone? G. T. Samson The Evil MicroWizard gts@wjh12.ARPA ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc. Date: 16 Oct 85 03:45:27 GMT [ The story thus far: Someone suggested that atom-by-atom copying of humans was made very difficult by the uncertainty principle. My reply pointed out that the precision needed was drastically reduced by the limits the human body faces when observing itself. And now, the reply. ] jbs@mit-eddie.UUCP (Jeff Siegal) writes: >This is pure nonsense. So what if the atom-by-atom structure of >bone is or is not reporduced. In fact, you could still achieve >human matter transmision without sending bone at all. It is the >thoughts and ideas, contained in the mind, which is important and >this is the part that CAN NOT be measured with sufficient accuracy. >Period. No if's and's or but's (sorry for the cliche). (sigh, let >me repeat myself) There is an absoulte, lower limit on the accuracy >with which one can measure both the position and momentium of any >particle (an electron). Specifically, the uncertainty (product of >uncertainty of position and uncertainty of momentum) can be no less >than h (Planc's constant). One can not hope to reproduce the state >of a human brain since doing so would require reporducing electric >impulses and energy states of atoms/molucules. It is not enough to >know that "there are a few electrons flying around." You must also >know where they are and where thay are going. Well, much of this is supposition. What constitutes the essential state of the human brain is essentially unknown. It may in fact be true that it depends entirely upon the presence or absence of various chemicals in various places, and that the momentum is unimportant except as far as getting the temperature right is concerned (and as I said before, temperature is about as imprecise as one can measure molecular velocity). The only upper limit in precision of either velocity or position is what the human body can observe. If it can't tell the difference, then for all intents and purposes there is none. It may in fact be impossible to achieve that level of precision. But I don't see any reason for presupposing that we cannot. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@topaz.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: Re: Matter transmission, etc. (uncertainty) Date: 16 Oct 85 03:48:41 GMT gts@wjh12.ARPA writes: >So it doesn't matter that the water molecules are all in the same >place, as long as they're water and they have the same average >kinetic energy? Not quite... imagine what might happen if a couple >of very energetic water molecules happened to be transmitted >through right next to some of your DNA. Mutagens, anyone? We have that same problem now. The qualifier is that statistically the event is quite rare, so that water is not a serious mutagen. Charley Wingate ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Oct 85 1019-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #409 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 21 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 409 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Brin & Campbell & Varley & Zelazny & Feminist Authors (3 msgs) & Title Request, Television - Max Headroom (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 16 Oct 1985 10:08:41-EDT From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc Subject: RE: Isaac Asimov's attitude toward women Yes, Davis Tucker, Isaac Asimov does come off as being chauvinistic toward women. He declares himself to be a former chauvinist, now reformed, but what this amounts to, as far as I can tell, is: Women are so cute, and cuddly, and mysterious, and I just want to kiss them all!....(and they're smart, too). This is harmless, even charming, most ot the time. However, there are times when his constant emphasis on the adorableness of some female is a grave injustice. For example, his piece about Shawna McCarthy in the Boskone XXII program book goes on and on about her appearance and winning ways, and the mystery of why her hair gradually stopped being red, and gives short shrift to her abilities as an editor, for which, after all, she was being honored. I commented to a friend that I'd lost respect for Shawna for permitting that gush to be printed about her, and my friend said, "Maybe that's why she left the magazine." I wonder... ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 85 13:04:15 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Uplift War From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA What is the latest on the Uplift War by David Brin. The last news I read was it would be out in April. Is this still true? Henry III ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 08:31 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: Setting the record straight about Campbell... >From: druri!dht@topaz.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) >>(1) Campbell was not a tyrant. In fact, he encouraged many kinds of >> experimentation in Astounding. This is attested by Heinlein >> (Expanded Universe) Asimov (Opus 100, Before The Golden Age) >> and many others. There were a couple of problems with his >> editorship: an unreasonable insistence on "human supremacy"... >> [ROBERT FIRTH] >I disagree. The record of "Astounding" does not bear your >assertions out. It was "Galaxy" and "The Magazine Of Fantasy And >Science Fiction" that were on the cutting edge of experimentation. >Campbell was considered tyrranical by even his friends (same books >you quote) and had a general reputation for being so. If he >encouraged experimentation, it was not in the literary content, but >in the scientific content. His insistence on human supremacy and >his well-documented, deep involvment with Dianetics most certainly >went hand-in-glove with his strict editorial control, which drove >away most of the good science fiction writers of his day >(Silverberg, Sturgeon, Cordwainer Smith, Aldiss, and others). As to >the testimony of Heinlein and Asimov, neither of whom would know >literary experimentation if it came up and bit them on their homo >superior, it seems a tad facile to credit them with much critical >acuity on the subject of their mentor and paymaster. > > Davis Tucker If you're going to abuse someone, at least do so for the right reasons. Asimov's description of his working relationship with Campbell is exactly in line with everything you describe. I refer you to Asimov's autobiography, wherein he provides a large number of examples of Campbell's pigheadedness and peculiar ideas. Asimov himself found these ideas, including or perhaps especially Dianetics and Scientology, ridiculous in the extreme. I guess you and the good doctor aren't so far apart after all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 85 18:44:00 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: "Press Enter _" by Varley Whoops! That's what I get for flying off the handle. As many people have pointed out to me, "Press Enter _" by Varley is a novella and is not published separately. It is published in at least two different collections. No wonder I couldn't find it. Thanks to all who sent (and will send) me mail about this. I didn't really become interested in the story until I saw several positive comments about it in SF-LOVERS. By then, the fact that it was a novella had already slipped by me. I didn't read the review sent in to this list (and still haven't for that matter), because it claimed to completely give away the plot. I should have read the first paragraph, tho, because it clearly stated the story's length and where it was available. Boy do I feel stupid! William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 85 09:39:07 PDT (Thursday) Subject: Re: Amber From: Kurt I am not sure about exactly who can walk a pattern. Does it really require the a genetic inheritance from the original creator, or is the blood of the house of Chaos sufficient to walk a pattern? The latter seems more likely to me, but who knows? Kurt ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 85 13:15:17 PDT (Wednesday) From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy To: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA Here are my favorites: * The Screwfly Solution, James Tiptree Jr. For a man, Tiptree sure writes strong female characters well. I also enjoy the upbeat endings that his novels always have. * Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton Another male writer who espouses feminist views. His female characters are also very well written. * A Spell For Chameleon, The Source Of Magic, Castle Roogna, etc., Piers Anthony I've found Piers Anthony to be an author who, unlike many others, has no problem at all with feminist doctrine. * Titan, Wizard, Demon, John Varley Again, strong female characters. A friend of mine pointed out that, "To Varley, a woman can only be a strong character if she is a Lesbian." Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't had a chance to read any of those books. Enjoy! Commodore Perry ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 15 Oct 85 15:53:18 GMT > I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors > and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of > sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some > recommendations from sisters or brothers out there. Mary Malmros You might check out a couple of collections of SF by women that came out a few years back: "Women Of Wonder" and "More Women Of Wonder." I'm not sure about the name of the second collection. Both were available in paperback a few years ago. Cheers, Bill Ingogly ------------------------------ From: spar!freeman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 16 Oct 85 18:17:32 GMT > From: smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA > I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors > and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of > sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some > recommendations from sisters or brothers out there. Antifeminists > please note: I'm not going to argue with you people, so don't > bother to flame me. You read your kind of literature and I'll > read mine. C. J. Cherryh has written some fine SF and fantasy that touches on feminist topics. Try the "Morgaine" trilogy -- Gate of Ivrel, Well of Shiuan, Fires of Azeroth; the "Faded Sun" triliogy; also Pride of Chanur. Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ From: microsoft!gordonl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Gordon Letwin) Subject: want norse gods book title Date: 17 Oct 85 01:56:03 GMT I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing to death, I think.) He's carried across the Bifrost where they're getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost Giants. He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb... I thought it was a good read when I was 14, and I'd like to try it again. thanks gordon letwin microsoft decvax!microsoft!gordonl uw-beaver!microsoft!gordonl ------------------------------ From: crash!victoro@sdcsvax.arpa Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 02:53:08 PDT Subject: The Max Headroom Show New Program: _The Max Headroom Show_ Cinemax on Wendsday's @ 7:30 / 8:30 PM Central Started October 16: Length :30 A Chrylsis Production Executive Producer: Terry Ellis Line Producer: Chris Griffin Casting: The Hubbard Company Music: Midge Ure & Chris Cross Film Editor: Michael Bradsell Production Designer: Maurice Cain Director of Photography: Phil Meneux BBC Screenplay: Steve Rodgers Based on an Original Idea from: George Stone, Rocky Morton, and Annabel Jankel Produced by: Peter Wagg Directed By: Rock Morton, Annabel Jankel Staring: Matt Frener and Nickolas Grace MINI REVIEW: Despite a silly plot, I'm looking forward to this! Really! *** Show Premise *** Semi-Spoiler later *** Max Headroom is the title of a new science fiction series on Cinemax. It concerns itself with the investigation by Edison Carter, television's highest rated news reporter, into a mysterious explosion in an section of the outside. Carter's program is a very aggressive style of investigation. In a world very much like early-'Bladerunner', Edison uses helicopter drops into news sites with live portable links and a desk bounded 'controller' using bugs, computer cracking, and spy cameras to assist in the live investigation program. And this business is very comperg) In re to posting damagin reviews: I kept the most damaging stuff out, but left iners to a high of 236 million per hour. *** What Spoiler? This is a recap of the first episode *** Edison's controller is told from 'VERY HIGH UP' that the story must be pulled. And in so doing he strands Edison 'outside' which nearly gets him killed, but forces the director to find a new controller and to convince Edison to drop the story. He replaces the controller with Theora Jones, the best from Network I. With her skills, Carter learns that the top execs are very upset that the failure of the BlipVerts could cost the huge Zick Zack account. They also discover that one of the chief officers of Channel 23 is leaving (and being covered on another network) to sign a new contract with Zick Zack. Edison rushes over to confront the spied upon exec, who speaks out off the record. The BiltVert project was created by the head of Reasearch and Devlopment for Network 23, Lynch Brice, to compress 30 seconds of advertisements into 3 seconds. This reduction in wasted time gives Network 23 the viewing edge that results in their high ratings. The system has one side effect. Among the most sloth like, slovenly, seditary individuals a chain reaction may be set off by the BlitVertisments. As explained by Brice, the human body is composed of a number of static charges that are normally accumulated at the nerve endings and are worked off through normal exertion. Except in the case of the most seditary. In those cases, the BlitVerts set the brain into firing off all the stored energy that results in a great deal of heat and the victim then explodes. (Which was the case of the story he was following.) Edison Carter learns that a video tape in the R&D labs shows the BlitVert effect very clearly. (It should be noted that the board of Network 23 is very upset about this effect and wants it silenced at any cost, although Brace seems too eager to kill off Carter.) He uses his controller's skills to lead him past security and through the corridors and into the lab. There he finds the tape, but is discovered by Brice who sends two henchmen to eliminate Carter in their usual low-life 'outsider' manner. Edison eludes the thugs as his controller and Brice fight for control of the building computer system, which controls the elevator system and defenses. Edison is able to escape using one of the thug's cycle but is thrown by Brice into a gate that is labled: MAX HEADROOM 2.3 FEET The episode ends with Edison Carter's life in total question. But previews of next week's, show the possiblity of the Network replacing Carter with one of Brice's computer simulations. NOTE: The music and computer graphics are arresting. Verry Good. Another Reason to Buy Video Tape... Victor O'Rear-- {ihnp4, cbosgd, sdcsvax, noscvax}!crash!victoro crash!victoro@nosc or crash!victoro@ucsd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 12:17:29 cdt From: Alan Wexelblat Subject: New SF on Cable Being used to seing only old movies on cable (Cinemax showed both The Thing (original) and Brother From Another Planet last week), I was *very* surprised by a 1/2-hour item from Britain, called "Max Headroom." Ignore the summary in your cable-tv guide, and *watch it*! I won't give the plot away (it looks like 'Max will run it again this month), but I will say this: The show starts with a long opening, part of which is the line "20 minutes in the future". It sets the mood and scene very well. The story appears to be about a newsman who stumbles onto a hot story that someone is trying to cover up. He works for a fictional network called Network 23, and he (like all newsmen of that time) is guided by a `controller.' The controller operates a computerized console and sees through cameras in the area. The newsman is guided to the story by his controller. One other thing: the computer animation is excellent, with realtime animation of line-drawings (buildings, elevators, city maps, helicopters) which really looks good. The images on the controller's screens zoom and pan quickly, which is good because the story moves at an amazing pace, and slow sfx would really hurt. No sex (yet), some small gore, some small profanity. My wife commented that the `feel' of the society is much like that of Blade Runner. Alan Wexelblat WEX@MCC.ARPA ------------------------------ From: nsc!chuqui@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: great typo in "Stainless Steel Rat is Born" Date: 16 Oct 85 16:01:55 GMT As long as we're talking about typos, I just started Harrison's new book "A Stainless Steel Rat is Born" (Spectra, $2.95). There is a REALLY cute typo in the first chapter (page 4, as a matter of fact) that goes "Imagine if you can -- and you will need a fertile imagination indeed -- a one-tonne angry boar hog with sharp tushes and mean dispositions." I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be sat upon by that animal..... You don't suppose they really meant tusks, do you??? *giggle* Chuq Von Rospach Currently: nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA {decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,pyramid}!nsc!chuqui Soon to be: ..!sun! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Oct 85 0911-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #410 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 23 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 410 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Campbell & Hughart & Varley & Star Trek & End of the World Stories (3 msgs), Films - Star Trek, Television - Amazing Stories ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Asimov Date: 15 Oct 85 15:14:00 GMT >> Asimov died years ago, but Doubleday is making so much money off >> of his famed prolificity, that they hired a staff of writers to >> continue to put out Asimov books. >> Lisa > >Asimov is NOT dead. In fact he is (I think) up to about number 320. > Mark Wait a minute, Mark. Aside from the fact that Lisa's tongue is planted firmly in her cheek, the issue of "death" being discussed is of literary quality, not continued output. Unlike Davis Tucker, I bear no ill will against Asimov, the person. If I was his age, had a quad heart by-pass operation within the past two years, and was staring my own mortality directly in the face while being a sincere atheist, I would probably be indulging a few foibles, too. As to his humility, I dare not provoke the gods by commenting -- my wife says that I can pontificate with the best of them and I respect her opinion. However, as regards Asimov, the writer, pain, Pain, PAIN. I honor him for what he has done, both in terms of individual works and for his contributions to the field. There *was* a time when Asimov was one whose work was helping the field mature. But you put your finger on the problem when you answered Lisa literally by saying he's up to number 320. Yes, he's churning out paper with words on it at an alarming rate -- but so does a line-printer gone mad. I can't recall an outstanding, or even good, work of his (in fiction) since THE GODS THEMSELVES. (The problem of going dry is not his alone. Take Bradbury, for instance. Please.) Asimov's fiction today is as painful to contemplate as watching a great, over-the-hill ballplayer (like Willie Mays?) trying to hang on. Sad. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Setting the record straight about Ca Date: 15 Oct 85 15:34:00 GMT I must agree with Davis. It is precisely because of Campbell's rigidity that magazines like Galaxy and F&SF flourished so quickly and so well. This is the reason why I believe the ultimate impact of Dianetics on SF was minimal in the direct sense -- it indirectly created new literary "ecological" niches that SF could survive and flourish in. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 17:10 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Bridge of Birds, by Barry Hughart Del Rey/Ballantine 32138 (May 1985) I'd like to second-the-motion for Matt Leo's recent note in praise of Barry Hughart's fantasy novel "Bridge of Birds" (Matt listed it as "Princess of Birds"... different edition, or fumble by flying fingers? I'm not sure). This is Hughart's first novel, and it goes onto my very small stack of "first novels that blew my socks off" immediately. I bought it largely by chance, to fill an otherwise empty afternoon; I rapidly realized that I'd purchased a real gem. The story is subtitled "A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was". If this sounds a bit like Jessica Amanda Salmonson's stories of Tomoe Gozen (please forgive any misspellings here - I don't have my library handy)... well, yes and no. The underlying concepts are similar (an alternate version of an Oriental country of long ago, in which magic and similar such things apply), but the feel of this story is very different. I stopped reading Salmonson's stories after the first Tomoe Gozen novel, as I never felt really engaged in what was happening; I fell into Bridge of Birds head-first, tore through it in one afternoon, and wished for more. Bridge of Birds is told from the point of view of Lu Yu (or "Number Ten Ox" to just about everyone), a young man of a small village. The children of his village are suddenly struck down by a strange illness, and he must locate a Wise Man to determine the cure. The only Wise Man he can hire with the money available to him is Li Kao, a somewhat fallen scholar with "a slight flaw in his character". Li Kao drinks rather too much wine, has little respect for authority, and has a love and talent for a well-turned con that would warm the heart of Slippery Jim diGriz (the Stainless Steel Rat). Together, they set out to locate (and steal) the Great Root of Power, which is the only curative medicine powerful enough to overcome the malady that has stricken the children. It soon becomes apparent that their quest is not simply what it seems... it is entwined with a deeper and more ominous search reaching up to the very heart of Heaven. A truly marvelous cast of supporting characters appear (and reappear unexpectedly) throughout the story, and the resolution is quite satisfying. This book has some of the most marvelous scenes and images that I've encountered in the past few years; the sense of humor which pervades the story never quits, and never gets in the way. It will be quite some time before I forget the picture of Miser Shen ploughing his way through an immense pile of goat manure looking for gold coins... or the discourse on the proper way to prepare porcupine in bean paste (VERY carefully!)... or the Falcon's granting of Doctor Death's true wish... or, most especially, the flashing Sword Dance done to free the spirits of Bright Star and the young captain that she loved from the ghost dance that holds them in thrall. I had tears in my eyes more than once while reading the story, and I'll buy Hughart's next novel the moment I see it. I give this book my highest personal recommendation. Special-order it if your bookstore doesn't have it in stock (I got mine at B.Dalton), borrow a friend's copy, withdraw it from your local well-stocked library (does not apply in California) or whatever.. but DON'T miss it! ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: "Press Enter _" by John Varley Date: 17 Oct 85 04:14:00 GMT "Press Enter" is a work of short fiction (about 80 pages), not a novel. It first appeared in *Fantasy and Science Fiction* (I believe) and was recently reprinted in Terry Carr's latest *Best Science Fiction of the Year* anthology. Dark Harvest recently announced a collection of short stories by Varley, including "Press Enter" and "Blue Champagne," to be titled *Blue Champagne* (cover art and interior illustrations by Todd Hamilton). I don't remember when they expect to release it. You can write to them for more information: Dark Harvest P.O. Box 48134 Niles, IL 60648 Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 85 18:07:43 EDT From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Price of the Phoenix >From: Keith Dale >One of the Star Trek novels, Price of the Phoenix by [two women >authors whose names escape me], deals with the problem of identical >copies of a person coexisting ("Will the real James Kirk please >stand up."). The story is done very well and shows (to me, at >least) that the authors must have had discussions similar to that >raging on the net lately. It does get involved, even (gasp!) makes >you think (:-), and should be a good way to gather more fuel for >this debate. > >Also, I thought it was a good read, but then I like most everything >that I read. How about some criticisms? Am I wrong to like it? >(:-) > Keith I sit here blithely replying, and find that I can only remember one of the author's names: Jacqueline Lichtenberg, currently of Sime/Gen fame. The other author wrote a Star Trek fact book in the mid-70's I think, in which case it would be Joan Winston, but I haven't been able to find these books in my library for a couple of years; I think I loaned them to someone and forgot who. (as usual) There is another book in the series, Fate of the Phoenix, but I cant remember if it came first or second... I will have to find these books! I was always under the impression that yet another book was going to come out, but it never has. I guess Lichtenberg is too busy with her Sime/Gen universe to write StarTrek anymore... pity. I liked it too, but then I am a rabid Trekkie (and proud of it!), so my opinion is not necessarily worthwhile, and certainly not objective!!! Ready to Energize /amqueue ps: a good test to see if you are a confirmed trekkie: do you walk into elevators and shout "Bridge" as the doors close? Do you answer the telephone "Enterprise, Spock here"? Can you recite all the lines of all the characters from the original tag scene from "Trouble With Tribbles"? Can you sing along with the opening music? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 85 12:03 PDT From: "Morton Jim"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Man in the rubble I have not seen Warday listed in the discussion of "Man in the rubble" stories. While this book does not encompass the amount of destruction that would be caused by either the U.S. or S.U. using half or more of their available nuclear weapons, the scenarios described in the book are believable descriptions of the United States after a small to medium small scale attack. *********< Slight Spoiler Warning >********* The book describes the observations and collected interviews made by two journalists traveling across America five years after a limited nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. The attack mode of the Soviets included effective use of EMP generated by pre-deployed thermonuclear weapons aboard communication sattelites which were commanded out of their normal positions and into positions most usefull for dropping their nuclear cargo. This single phase of the attack was responsible for the fragmentation of the United States into several regions of independent political power. In addition to the EMP attack, a more conventional Nuclear attack was effected for New York City, Washington D.C., San Antonio Tx, and the Minuteman missile fields througout the midwest. These attacks caused significant loss of life, disease and hunger. Several ideas explored in the book include the Triage of people with excessive lifetime exposure to radiation, with people turning to alternative forms of medical treatment ( witches faith-healers etc). Also, the aid provided by foreign countries to the U.S. (and S.U.) and the way these countries were taking advantage of the condition of the superpowers to further their own national goals. The way that various states controlled immigration was also explored. All in all I found the book enjoyable, and was exposed to concepts I had not considered before. Jim Morton ------------------------------ From: scgvaxd!bob@topaz.rutgers.edu (Bob Guernsey) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF Date: 16 Oct 85 18:48:07 GMT Let's not forget Nevil Shutes book On the beach. This was one of the first classics of the after the destruction type. It deals with the situation as encountered by an American submarine on duty at the start of the War. Both the movie and the book are excellent. Bob... ------------------------------ From: styx!mcb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Michael C. Berch) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 10 Oct 85 06:10:08 GMT In addition to those posted by sonja@genie here's a further list of "post-apocalypse" novels. My criteria for inclusion here are as follows: 1. "End-of-the-world". A catastrophe or major nuclear war that kills off a good percentage of the human race occurs towards the beginning of the book. 2. "Man-in-the-rubble". Events immediately after such a catastrophe or war. 3. "After-the-fall". Events many years or generations after such a catastrophe or war. I'm purposely being formal about the criteria since there are zillions of sf novels that contain, in some form, reference to nuclear wars, plagues, natural catastrophes, etc. This list is far from exhaustive, even combined with sonja@genie's. It was more or less "off the top of my head," and I've probably missed a fair number of obvious ones. Novelettes and short stories are not included; there are too many even to begin. If you come up with some others, send 'em to me, and I'll compile a list and make it available. Anyway, here goes: Aldiss, Brian. BAREFOOT IN THE HEAD. Anthony, Piers. BATTLE CIRCLE [Sos the Rope, Var the Stick, Neq the Sword]. Ballard, J.G. THE CRYSTAL WORLD. THE DROUGHT. THE DROWNED WORLD. THE WIND FROM NOWHERE. Christopher, John. NO BLADE OF GRASS. Cowper, Richard. THE TWILIGHT OF BRIAREUS. Delany, Samuel R. DHALGREN. THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION. THE JEWELS OF APTOR. Dick, P.K. and Zelazny, Roger. DEUS IRAE. Farren, Mick. THE TEXTS OF FESTIVAL. Frank, Pat. ALAS, BABYLON. Heinlein, Robert A. FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD. Hoyle, Fred. THE BLACK CLOUD. Ing, Dean. PULLING THROUGH. SYSTEMIC SHOCK. Jones, D.F. DENVER IS MISSING. Kurland, Michael. PLURIBUS. Niven, Larry and Pournelle, Jerry. LUCIFER'S HAMMER. Pangborn, Edgar. THE COMPANY OF GLORY. DAVY. STILL I PERSIST IN WONDERING. Powers, Tim. DINNER AT DEVIANT'S PALACE. Roshwald, Mordecai. LEVEL 7. Shiel, M.P. THE PURPLE CLOUD. Stewart, George R. EARTH ABIDES. Thompson, Allyn. THE AZRIEL UPRISING. Vinge, Vernor. THE PEACE WAR. Wylie, Philip. TOMORROW!. Zelazny, Roger. DAMNATION ALLEY ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 16 Oct 1985 10:07:25-PDT From: vickrey%lite.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (DBA_Smith, GRAFIX_Smith, From: FORTRAN_Clerk) Subject: Re: Harry Mudd in ST IV At Star Con Denver last month, Roger Carmel was asked if he was going to be in ST IV. His answer was that he'd love to, but hadn't been asked. He also mentioned that at one time they were considering a Harry Mudd spinoff series. *sigh* Susan ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Amazing Stories 10/5 Date: 15 Oct 85 15:27:00 GMT >In most sf, I agree with you, things like characterization, >scientific accuracy, and so on, are important. But this was a >FARCE. Different rules apply. The important thing was that >everyone in front of that set had FUN. I think the thing >worked--along the lines of "Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers." > Sue Brezden Here, we get into the murky ground of artistic intent, of knowing what was in the producer/director's mind. I agree, it was a FARCE. The question is, was it *meant* to be? I don't think so, though I'm willing to listen to arguments supporting that position. My responses are clouded by the perception that for many people, that's all SF is -- a farce. It is this view of SF that gives reasonable ammunition to SF's detractors. I am particularly pained because farce SF -- whether intentional or not -- keeps many people from discovering the GOOD SF -- and while we can all disagree over exactly what the good stuff is, we can probably agree that it's there and that it's not a farce. I particularly object to a farcical treatment of SF on a nationwide TV audience, where many people will form or confirm their ideas about SF. A small, cult movie like STAR CRASH or HARDWARE WARS is one thing; most of the audience has already been converted and will take it as a spoof. Most of the folks out there in TV land don't know any better. Did anybody see the third week? (I didn't.) Can you shed any additional light on this discussion? Did the farce continue? Is it intentional? What is the meaning of 42? Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Oct 85 0945-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #411 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 23 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 411 Today's Topics: Books - Varley & Vonnegut & White & Zelazny & Title Request Answered & The Wolf Worlds & Feminist Authors (5 msgs), Films - Silver Bullet, Miscellaneous - Repost Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ISM780B!jimb@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Replies Date: 17 Oct 85 14:37:00 GMT >As the above should indicate, "Press Enter []" won the Hugo for >Best Short Story, and is therefore not likely to be found as a >separate book. Your best bet is to get a hold of the issue of >Asimov's which it appeared in. Alternately, it should show up in >one of the "best of the year" collections, and if you don't mind >waiting, will appear in the next Hugo Winners Anthology. Whoa. Strictly speaking, "Press Enter[]" won the Hugo for best novella, not best short story, which was won by David Brin's "The Crystal Spheres." A minor point; both are short fiction. "Press Enter[]" was in the May, 1984 issue of Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and apparently has also been recently released in one of the Best of the Year (1984) anthologies. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: ISM780!dianeh@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Vonnegut Date: 16 Oct 85 23:12:00 GMT > I saw a show on PBS years { & years } ago that had all this as > seen by a time traveling space fellow. I think he was bopping > from story to story, but, as I said, it was a long time ago. > Anyone else remember this show/movie? The film was titled Between_Time_and_Timbuktu:_A_Space_Odyssey, and was, indeed, a conglomerate of several Vonnegut stories, including Cat's_Cradle and Harrison_Bergeron. The main character was a guy named Stony Stevenson, a regular Joe-Blow who won a contest that had as Grand Prize a trip to the time-warping space called something like the Intergalactic Infindibulum. It was a great film and, along with the PBS production of LeGuin's The_Lathe_ of_Heaven, ranks among my favorite sf films. Unfortunately, as is typical of PBS, they don't show their old stuff much, so the chances of seeing it again are *very* slight. P.S. Bob & Ray are great as the commentators on the television coverage of Stony's flight, which lasts for months and months. Needless to say, they get rather hard up for commentary after that long a period and begin discussing things like how Mars reminds them of their driveway at home, which is painted red and isn't that a rather unusual color for a driveway, yes it is... Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. ima!ism780 ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@topaz.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Big Bugs - any pointers?? Date: 17 Oct 85 12:32:56 GMT Try the Sector 12 General Hospital books by James White, such as STAR SURGEON (the first, I think), MAJOR OPERATION (the best, I feel), AMBULANCE SHIP, STAR HEALER, etc. He proposes a fragile race of human-sized insectoid beings from the low-gravity world of Cinruss, one of whom, Dr. Prilicla, is a regular in the series. I always liked White, though he's waxed formulaistic in his later books. His short story TABLEAU from his collection THE ALIENS AMONG US is one of my all-time favourites. His books are published by Del Rey in North America and Corgi in England. White lives in Ireland. Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ From: fear!robert@topaz.rutgers.edu (Robert Plamondon) Subject: Re: Amber Date: 16 Oct 85 15:00:36 GMT SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU writes: > Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked > Corwin's pattern and then destroyed it. First of all, to walk > Corwin's pattern supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie > his descendant), in which catagory only Merlin falls. Why assume that Rinaldo walked the pattern at all? If my memory serves me, he is never shown walking through Shadow; he draws Trumps and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who have never walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps while still at the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos, Chapter 1). Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@topaz.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re:want norse gods book title Date: 18 Oct 85 01:00:07 GMT >gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes: >I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a >modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing >to death, I think.) He's carried across the Bifrost where they're >getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost >Giants. He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb... I >thought it was a good read when I was 14, and I'd like to try it >again. I think you are refering to one of the sections in The Compleat Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt (Ballantine Books). It is the first story and is called "The Roaring Trumpet". I also read it young. I think you'll enjoy it the second time, too--I did. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE WOLF WORLDS by Allan Cole & Chris Bunch Date: 16 Oct 85 15:45:32 GMT The jacket reads: "The Eternal Emperor ruled countless worlds across the galaxy. Vast armies and huge fleets awaited his command. But when he needed a "little" job done right, he turned to Mantis Team and its small band of militant problem solvers. Just then the Emperor needed to pacify the Wolf Words, the planets of an insignificant cluster that had raised space piracy to a low art. And Mantis Team could use all the men it needed -- as long as it needed no more than two." The story has essentially three episodes and is similar to the "war" stories written by Pournelle with some Dorsai thrown in. The jacket description is accurate as far as it goes, but the book mainly follows one character around. Sten is the leader of the Mantis team involved in the exploits. He is a sympathetic character, realistic, but not callous. The Emperor who directs the action doesn't get much attention in the book, but what he gets is just right. The Emperor is doing his best to keep things running smoothly, but he also wants to have some fun. He uses Mantis Team to do corrective surgery rather than involving fleets of spacecraft and armies of soldiers. The book is mainly action and adventure, and it has some interesting characters. Occasionally the storyline jumps a bit, and the first "episode" in the book is a little short and doesn't seem to have all that much to do with the other ones. But keep reading. I enjoyed the book and give it 2.5 stars (good). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@topaz.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 15 Oct 85 14:53:26 GMT Joanna Russ's THE FEMALE MAN is a classic and not badly written either. Elgin's NATIVE TONGUE and OZARK TRILOGY MZBradley's more recent Darkover books, starting with THE SHATTERED CHAIN. These are all comparatively strident. If you're willing to settle merely for egalitarian books with strong, independent women, you'll probably get better science fiction/fantasy. Like Brust's JHEREG and YENDI, LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea series, book two or LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, or McKillip's Riddle of Stars trilogy or FORGOTTEN BEASTS OF ELD. Luck, Lee Gold ------------------------------ From: ukc!ml1@topaz.rutgers.edu (M.Longley) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 17 Oct 85 17:58:15 GMT I am not really sure what qualifies a book to be considered as feminist, but I think most of the following are at least not sexist, though I may be wrong about this. I would be interested in learning which authors of SF you do consider as feminist in particular if they are people I have not so far read. Anyway I can at least claim that I think the following books are worth reading. By far the best is "The Female Man" by Joanna Russ. Lynn Abbey Daughter of the Bright Moon The Black Flame The Guardians F.M. Busby Zelde M'Tana Rissa Kerguelen Octavia E. Butler Clay's Ark Mind of My Mind Survivor Patternmaster Jayge Carr Leviathan's Deep Suzy McKee Charnas Walk to the End of the World Motherlines Samuel R. Delany Babel-17 Suzette Haden Elgin Native Tongue Cynthia Felice Godsfire The Sunbound Eclipses Sally Miller Gearhart The Wanderground Mary Gentle Golden Witchbreed Phyllis Gotlieb Sunburst A Judgement of Dragons Emperor, Swords, Pentacles The Kingdom of the Cats Jen Green & Sarah Lefanu (eds) Despatches from the Frontiers of the Female Mind Virginia Kidd (ed) The Eye of the Heron and Other Stories Lee Killough The Monitor, the Miners and the Shree The Doppleganger Gambit Liberty's World Donald Kingsbury Courtship Rite Ursula K. LeGuin The Dispossessed The Left Hand of Darkness Elizabeth A. Lynn Watchtower The Dancers of Arun The Northern Girl R.A. MacAvoy Tea With the Black Dragon Vonda N. McIntyre The Exile Waiting Dreamsnake Sandra Miesel Dreamrider Jane Palmer The Planet Dweller Joanna Russ The Female Man We Who Are About To ... The Two of Them And Chaos Died The Adventures of Alyx The Zanzibar Cat Extra(Ordinary) People Pamela Sargent (ed) Women of Wonder More Women of Wonder James H. Schmitz The Universe Against Her The Lion Game The Demon Breed The Telzey Toy and Other Stories Agent of Vega Alice Sheldon 10,000 Light-Years From Home Warm Worlds and Otherwise Star Songs of an Old Primate Out of the Everywhere, and Other Extraordinary Visions John Varley Titan Wizard Demon The Ophiuchi Hotline In the Hall of the Martian Kings The Barbie Murders Joan D. Vinge The Outcasts of Heaven Belt Fireship Eyes of Amber and Other Stories ------------------------------ From: mhs@lanl.ARPA Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 18 Oct 85 02:37:23 GMT > From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA > * The Screwfly Solution, James Tiptree Jr. .... > * Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton .... > > Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in > a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't > had a chance to read any of those books. James Tiptree Jr and Andre Norton are women. The Gor series doesn't treat women in radically different ways: it views them as objects. Certainly Tiptree's gender and Norman's views have been discussed in the net before. I always thought that James Schmitz's women were capable people. Try "The demon breed" or the books about Telzey Amberdon -- "The lion game" and "A tale of two clocks" are two of them, I think, but I can't vouch for the titles. But if you want explicit feminist doctrine, you won't get it in these books. ------------------------------ From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 17 Oct 85 14:40:00 GMT John Norman's Gor series certainly treats women in a different light than most authors, but it isn't exactly a feminist light. The Gor series started as a pretty typical Swords and Muscles book with a strong masculine supremacist bent. As the books kept coming out, this element kept getting stronger until the books turned into some weird softcore bondage pornography. On Gor (which is on the other side of the sun from the earth) women are basically property, and enjoy being abused. The books have gotten very strange, and were never very good to begin with. "Norman" (it's a pseudonym) has published a book on sexuality. The subtitle might be "50 ways to tie your lover". Recommended for a laugh, but too strange to take seriously. The stuff isn't art, and it isn't amusing, but if you are in the mood for something different and unpleasant, you might look at one. chris Chris Kostanick decvax!vortex!ism780!ico!chris ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!ico!chris ------------------------------ From: dcc1!unixcorn@topaz.rutgers.edu (math.c) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 18 Oct 85 14:43:45 GMT >From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA >Here are my favorites: > >* Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton >Another male writer who espouses feminist views. His female >characters are also very well written. ALICE MARY NORTON (writes as Andre Norton) is and has been female for a goodly number of years. unixcorn (alias m. gould) gatech!dcc1!unixcorn ------------------------------ Subject: Silver Bullet Date: 18 Oct 85 13:37:46 PDT (Fri) From: Dave Godwin Has anybody out there both seen the new Silver Bullet flick, and also read the Steven King short on which it was based ?? I have a first edition of the book ( good story, fantastic color artwork ), and am getting real real tired of movies companies making lousy movies out of King's writing. The only passable King book --> movie translation was Dead Zone, and even that wasn't worth watching more than once or twice. Dave ------------------------------ From: Michael O'Brien Date: 18 Oct 85 10:40:33 PDT (Fri) Subject: Amber rip-off? I've done things in the wrong order. Some issues back someone mentioned a book which was very similar to the Amber novels. Protagonist lives on earth, but is a member of a family living in the REAL world, there's sudden trouble "back home", etc. The author was someone whom I'd never heard of (and I've heard of a lot). First I deleted the issue, then I went off to look for the book...and promptly forgot author & title. It's not Farmer's World of Tiers series, I know that...it's a single novel. Would whomever published that review please send me mail, and tell me what that book was? Thanks! (The SFL archives are too huge for me to attempt to suck them over & grot through them.) Mike O'Brien {sdcrdcf,decvax}!randvax!obrien obrien@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Oct 85 1010-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #412 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 23 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 412 Today's Topics: Books - September Booklist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hplabsd!faunt@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt) Subject: September Booklist from OCOH Date: 17 Oct 85 17:27:13 GMT This is the books received at OCOH for September, FYI, pulled off SCI-FIDO, a SF oriented BBS in Oakland CA, run by Mike Farren. Debbie is Debbie Notkin, of LOCUS review fame. The Other Change of Hobbit 2433 Channing Way Berkeley, CA 94704 (415) 848-0413 This is the on-line edition of our monthly booklist for September, 1985. Thanks to Mike Farren for suggesting that we put it up on SCI-FIDO and making a space for it. We hope it's useful to all of you, whether you shop with us or at your local store. And now, for the books received in September (trumpet and drums) ... HARDCOVERS AND TRADE PAPERBACKS Anthony, Piers WITH A TANGLED SKEIN Book 3 of Incarnations of Immortality. This one's Fate. ("Sometimes the reader doesn't bother with the novel at all, just the Note." - the Author's Note) Asimov, Isaac ROBOTS AND EMPIRE Novel straddling the Lije Baley and Foundation books; features Lady Gladia, R. Giskard and R. Daneel. ("Good book - brings back the excite- ment of development of ideas ... and some pretty good characters." - Dave) Baum, L. Frank LITTLE WIZARD STORIES OF OZ Reprint with color plates of 1914 edition. (See also Thompson, Ruth Plumly) Brown, Fredric THE FREAK SHOW MURDERS Previously uncollected mystery short stories; introduction by Richard A. Lupoff. 350-copy numbered edition, signed by Lupoff. The fifth such book published by Dennis McMillan. Recommended by Tom and Debbie Carr, Jayge THE TREASURE IN THE HEART OF THE MAZE Companion novel to NAVIGATOR'S SINDROME. ("Not as good as the first, but some great space opera [with characters] anyway." - Debbie) Cherryh, C. J. ANGEL WITH THE SWORD The first DAW hardcover. Dick, Philip K. LIES, INC. The British edition of THE UNTELEPORTED MAN, incorporating later additions and revisions by Dick, restoring one of the three missing passages, completing the remaining two gaps (Dick's text now available from the Philip K. Dick Society) with new material by John Sladek. Eager, Edward HALF MAGIC A children's classic with a new cover (and a different size). Gardner, John and GILGAMESH John Maier (translators) Trade paperback reprint of 1984 hardcover. Gould, Stephen Jay THE FLAMINGO'S SMILE: REFLECTIONS IN NATURAL HISTORY Essay collection. Haldeman, Joe DEALING IN FUTURES New short story collection. Hogan, James P. THE PROTEUS OPERATION King, Stephen THE BACHMAN BOOKS (hardcover) THE BACHMAN BOOKS (paperback) The four pre-THINNER novels by "Richard Bachman"--RAGE, THE LONG WALK, ROADWORK and THE RUNNING MAN plus "Why I Was Bachman." LeGuin, Ursula K. ALWAYS COMING HOME This boxed trade paperback and audio- cassette precede the $50.00 hardcover. ("A fascinating complete evocation of a future culture. Not a novel, but a full anthropological record. Recommended." - Debbie) Lindsay, David A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS Finally back in print. McKillip, Patricia A. THE MOON AND THE FACE Sequel to MOON-FLASH. Pinkwater, Honest Dan'l ROGER'S UMBRELLA Reprint of 1982 hardcover Pinkwater's an addiction - are you hooked yet? This one's for young children. Pournelle, Jerry, Jim THE SCIENCE FICTION YEARBOOK Baen and John F. The fourth best of the year, and the only Carr (eds.) one to reprint David Brin's Hugo-winning short story "The Crystal Spheres." ("Notable for its critical essays, especially Benford's" - Debbie) Ryman, Geoff THE WARRIOR WHO CARRIED LIFE First novel. British trade paperback (reprint). ("Superbly written, but with very graphic violence. Recommended, but only with that warning." - Debbie) Sagan, Carl COSMOS First novel. Smith, Stephanie A. SNOW-EYES Young adult first novel. Gorgeous Mariano cover. Recommended by Debbie and Tom. Snyder, Zilpha Keatly THE CHANGING MAZE Large-format children's art-and-story book, illustrated by Charles Mikolaycak. Strieber, Whitley WOLF OF SHADOWS Large-format young adult novel. ("Wolf-eye view of survival in a nuclear winter." - Dave) Thompson, Ruth Plumly THE GNOME KING OF OZ THE GIANT HORSE OF OZ JACK PUMPKINSEED OF OZ Oz Nos. 21-23. Reprints of 1927, 1928, 1929 hardcovers, respectively. Wodehouse, P. G. A WODEHOUSE BESTIARY Collection. MASS PAPERBACKS Adams, Douglas and THE MEANING OF LIFF John Lloyd Hilarious definitions attached to mostly British place names. By the author of HITCH-HIKER'S GUIDE ... Alexander, Lloyd THE BEGGAR QUEEN Concludes the trilogy containing WESTMARK and THE KESTREL. Reprint of the 1984 hardcover. Anthony, Piers BEARING AN HOURGLASS Book 2 of Incarnations of Immortality. This one's Time. Reprint ofthe 1984 hardcover. Asimov, Isaac THE MARTIAN WAY ... AND OTHER STORIES 1955 collection. Attanasio, A.A. RADIX Paperback edition of 1981 Morrow hardcover. Bailey, Robin W. SKULL GATE Sequel to FROST (which is now out of print). Ballard, J. G. CONCRETE ISLAND First American paperback of 1973 novel. CRASH First American paperback of 1973 novel; includes English version of the introduction to the 1974 French edition. EMPIRE OF THE SUN Reprint of the 1984 hardcover of this semi-autobiographical non-sf novel set in World War II China. Bova, Ben THE ASTRAL MIRROR Collection of fiction and non-fiction, some from older collections. Bradley, Marion Zimmer THE WORLD WRECKERS 1971 Darkover novel; featuring latest of the new James Warhola covers. Carlyon, Richard THE DARK LORD OF PENGERSICK Paperback of 1980 hardcover; would have been a MagicQuest book if the line hadn't been absorbed by Ace. Carver, Jeffrey A. THE INFINITY LINK Paperback of 1984 hardcover. Cherryh, C. J. CUCKOO'S EGG Reprint of 1985 Phantasia Press hardcover. Recommended by Jan and Jennifer. Coppel, Alfred (as THE WARLOCK OF RHADA "Robert Cham The fourth Rhada novel. To be backed Gilman") up shortly by the first three (only #1 ever had a paperback). Dalmas, John FANGLITH Dann, Jack and Gardner BESTIARY! Dozois (eds.) Reprint anthology. Davidson, Lionel UNDER PLUM LAKE Young adult reissue (1980) with new cover. deLint, Charles MULENGRO: A Romany Tale Dickson, Gordon R. THE FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA New in paperback. Teensy-tiny print for 696 pages! (Reduced from hardcover plates). Three books long for less than the price of two! THE OUTPOSTER Reprint. Gallun, Raymond Z. BIOBLAST Gardner, John GRENDEL New cover on this paperback reissue of a 1971 book. ("Wonderful tale of the monster's side in BEOWULF. Recommended." - Debbie) Gaskell, Jane THE CITY The Atlan Saga: 4. DAW's first reprint of this series. Geis, Richard and THE BURNT LANDS Elton Elliott (as "Richard Elliott" Grant, Charles L. (ed.) GREYSTONE BAY Original shared-world horror anthology. Green, Roland PEACE COMPANY Harrison, Harry A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN "Origin" novel of Slippery Jim di Griz. Hawkins, Ward SWORD OF FIRE Sequel to RED FLAME BURNING. Herbert, Frank DIRECT DESCENT Reprint (1980) of this short story disguised as a book ... practically an illustration for every two pages of large print! Lichtenberg, Jacqueline UNTO ZEOR FOREVER First Berkley edition. McKiernan, Dennis L. THE DARKEST DAY Reprint of the 1984 hardcover. Book III of the Iron Tower Trilogy; another beautiful Alan Lee cover. McKillip, Patricia A. MOON-FLASH Paperback of the 1984 hardcover. Meyers, Richard RETURN TO DOOMSTAR Sequel to ... DOOMSTAR, of cours. Morris, Janet & Chris THE 40-MINUTE WAR or THE 40 MINUTE WAR or THE FORTY MINUTE WAR ... anyway a reprint of the 1985 hardcover (which only has two of those titles). Norton, Andre and HOUSE OF SHADOWS Phyllis Miller Reprint of the 1984 hardcover. Norton, Andre STAR MAN'S SON Pohl, Frederik and SEARCH THE SKY C. M. Kornbluth Newly and substantially revised by the surviving half. Resnick, Mike ADVENTURES: "Being a Stirring Chronicle of Intrigue, Romance, Danger, Hairbreadth Escapes and Thrilling Triumphs over Fierce Beasts and Fiercer Men in the Mysterious and Exotic Dark Continent, as Recounted by the Daring, Resourceful, Handsome, and Modest Christian Gentleman who Experienced Them." *Whew!* Saunders, Charles IMARO III: THE TRAIL OF BOHU Silverberg, Robert THE SILENT INVADERS Now from Tor. 1963 novel reprinted with "Valley Beyond Time" (1957), a novella. Snyder, Zilpha Keatly THE HEADLESS CUPID Juvenile. Reprint (1971). Swycaffer, Jefferson P. THE UNIVERSAL PREY Novel based on the games Imperium (R) and Traveller (R). Underwood, Tim and FEAR ITSELF: The Horror Fiction of Stephen Chuck Miller (eds.) King First mass paperback of this collection of essays on the works of Stephen King with foreword by The Man Himself. Wagner, Karl Edward THE YEAR'S BEST HORROR STORIES: SERIES XIII (ed.) Watson, Ian THE BOOK OF THE RIVER British paperback. Webb, Sharon RAM SONG Concluding third of the Earth Song Triad (EARTHCHILD, EARTHSONG). Paperback reprint of the Atheneum hardcover. Weis, Margaret and DRAGONLANCE (TM) CHRONICLES VOL. III: DRAGONS Tracy Hickman OF SPRING DAWNING Concludes this gaming-related trilogy. Williams, Paul O. THE SWORD OF FORBEARANCE Book 7 of the Pelbar cycle. Yarbro, Chelsea Quinn TO THE HIGH REDOUBT Recommended by Debbie. ....!hplabs!faunt faunt%hplabs@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Oct 85 0923-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #413 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 413 Today's Topics: Books - Goldstein & O'Donnell & Phillips & Schmitz & Tepper & Zelazny & Title Request & Star Trek & Bugs & End of the World Stories Miscellaneous - The birth of SF-Lovers & Star Wars & Typos & Creation Con ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!leeper@topaz.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE RED MAGICIAN by Lisa Goldstein Date: 24 Oct 85 05:15:49 GMT THE RED MAGICIAN by Lisa Goldstein Pocket, 1982 A book review by Mark R. Leeper A while back I reviewed a number of stories concerning golems. They were, in fact, every book I could get my hands on concerning the creature of folklore. Following the publication of that article I got comments saying that golems showed up in comic books (which are effectively unavailable to me) and in Lisa Goldstein's THE RED MAGICIAN. Now that was embarrassing because I owned the book and once it was mentioned I remembered seeing a golem on the cover. THE RED MAGICIAN joined 33 other books on my "must read" shelf (some of which have been there over two years). My shame at having missed this one for my article pushed it up toward the front of the queue. And, well, here we are. Of late we have seen fantasy novels set in a number of historical cultures. It is a pleasant change from having them all set in Celtic Britain, Medieval Europe, or some never-never land. Classical China, for example, was used in Hughart's BRIDGE OF BIRDS. Australian Aboriginal mythology is the basis of Patricia Wrightson's trilogy THE ICE IS COMING, THE DARK BRIGHT WATER, and THE JOURNEY BEHIND THE WIND. Goldstein sets her story in the Jewish villages of Eastern Europe, just before, during, and after the Holocaust. The story is of a mystical rabbi who really can work miracles and of a traveling magician who has forseen the future and arrives with warnings of what is to come. A conflict begins between the two that will go on for years. We see the story from the viewpoint of Kicsi, a young girl infatuated with Voros, the magician. THE RED MAGICIAN is too short and simple to be considered an adult fantasy, but it is more sophisticated than most juveniles. Goldstein has a feel for Jewish folklore and life in the Eastern European Jewish communities. THE RED MAGICIAN is a fantasy that will be quickly forgotten. It will probably be read mostly by Jewish fantasy readers. (I think that BRIDGE OF BIRDS will be read by a much higher proportion of non-Chinese.) It is a simple but well-written story that should not disappoint most of its readers. Rate it +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. Oh, and as for a golem, there is one but it is only a minor plot element. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: nmtvax!wildstar@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Flinger Series Date: 18 Oct 85 01:54:38 GMT Does anyone know if Kevin O'Donnell wrote a Flinger novel after "LAVA"? Also, does anyone realize that McGill Feigan could Fling 900 kg of antimatter particles at .99999 lightspeed into a sun and thereby blow an entire solar system? Andrew Fine ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: More Peter Phillips stories Date: 18 Oct 85 10:05:02 GMT The day after I sent off the first message listing stories by Peter Phillips, I found references to three more that appeared in magazines. Unfortunately, I don't have any reference books that might tell me if and where they might have been reprinted in anthologies. My anthologies are not at hand. "Death's Bouquet" Weird Tales (9/48) "No Silence for Maloeween" Weird Tales (5/48) "She Didn't Bounce" Suspense (Spr/51) [I don't know whether this last one is fantasy/sf or not; my magazines are not at hand either. This particular magazine ran a mixture of genres.] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: ICO!chris@topaz.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 18 Oct 85 14:26:00 GMT A minor quibble on Schmitz. The protagonist in A Tale of Two Clocks is Trigger Argee, not Telzey Amberdon. The book Agent of Vega has 3 strong female protagonists, and is my second favorite Schmitz book. (My fav of course being The Witches of Karres) Most of Schmitz's writting has strong female characters. chris Chris Kostanick decvax!vortex!ism780!ico!chris ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!ico!chris ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: KING'S BLOOD FOUR by Sheri S. Tepper Date: 17 Oct 85 14:47:38 GMT The jacket reads: "In the lands of the True Game, your lifelong identity will emerge as you play. Prince or Sorcerer, Armiger or Tragamor, Demon or Doyen... Which will it be?" This book is the first of a trilogy, the other two being NECROMANCER NINE and WIZARD'S ELEVEN. The world is one in which the important individuals have "talents" -- reading minds, predicting the future, moving objects from a distance, etc. Those without a talent are called pawns; they generally are servants and are used as cannon fodder in battles between those with talents. Young people are educated in playing the Game, identifying the players, etc., at the Houses of Gamemasters. Only at such schools is the Game played for demonstration purposes only. The story concerns 15-year-old Peter who has been at such a house all his life. Like most others his age, he has yet to discover his talent. His best friend, a teacher, betrays him, and he is sent on a journey to another school for safekeeping. He is pursued, and he learns about the world and his heritage. Peter tells the story himself. The pace starts out slow and picks up with each chapter. The world seems to be well thought out and the characters are more fleshed out than in most books. Peter acts like a 15-year-old, unlike some books in which the young characters act much older than their ostensible ages. I was fascinated to catch glimpses of how this world is related to our world. I had read the second book of the series some time ago; I normally don't read books out of sequence, but the second seemed very interesting and I couldn't find the first book at the time. I enjoyed the second very much, and I liked the first one too. I give KING'S BLOOD FOUR 3.0 stars (very good), and I look forward to reading WIZARD'S ELEVEN. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS (Charles R. Speegle) Subject: More and more Trumps_of_Doom speculation *SPOILER* Date: 16 Oct 85 14:59:54 GMT There has been speculation as to how and by what means did Rinaldo get his instruction on the use of shadow. After Merlin had gone to the country club for his meeting with an agent of the other side(?) and been stood up, Fiona who had been watching the entire time came and talked with him. During this conversation she asked to see a picture of Luke, she responded as if she were trying to hide the fact that she knew who he was. Therefore she was the one who more than likely told Rinaldo that his father had been killed and also gave him the instruction necessary to walk the pattern. Remember also that Fiona is one of the most adept at working with trumps and shadow. Charlie ARPA: speegle@ut-ngp.UTEXAS.EDU UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!ut-ngp!speegle ------------------------------ From: infinet!cgf@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Faylor) Subject: Trying to remember a book title Date: 17 Oct 85 18:57:39 GMT When I was in the third grade (about 24 years ago) I read a book that sort of got me started on science fiction/fantasy. It involved some kids who found an old coin which granted them wishes... sort of. The coin was so old that they had to wish for everything twice to get a complete wish, otherwise they only got half of what they wished for. I only remember brief scenes beyond that. I think I remember that they went back in time and met Merlin at King Arthur's Court and he considered taking the coin away from them until they talked him out of it. I remember that they tried to modify the behavior of their mother (who was giving them a hard time) to make her less strict and were not pleased with the outcome. Eventually the coin stopped working for them and they passed it along to someone else. I would really like to find this book again. It invoked a sense of wonder in me that I have not forgotten. cgf decvax!wanginst!infinet!cgf ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 19 Oct 1985 00:13:38-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Price of the Phoenix > From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} > I sit here blithely replying, and find that I can only > remember one of the author's names: Jacqueline Lichtenberg, > currently of Sime/Gen fame. The other author wrote a Star Trek > fact book in the mid-70's I think, in which case it would be Joan > Winston, but I havent been able to find these books in my library > for a couple of years;... They say memory is the first to go... :-) The writers of PRICE OF THE PHOENIX and FATE OF THE PHOENIX (as well as at least one other Trek novel, the title of which I forget and am too lazy to look up, and editing the two NEW VOYAGES anthologies) are Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. Lichtenberg never wrote a Star Trek novel (unless it was fan published), but her sometime Sime/Gen collaborator, Jean Lorrah, wrote THE VULCAN ACADEMY MURDERS. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: circadia!dave@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Messer) Subject: Re: Big Bugs - any pointers?? Date: 18 Oct 85 04:34:24 GMT > From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA > I am looking for stories or possibly essay-type discussions about > giant insects. Look at James White's "Sector General" stories. Also, Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" has some discussion about insectoid life. David Messer UUCP: ...ihnp4!circadia!dave FIDO: 14/415 (SYSOP) ------------------------------ From: mhs@lanl.ARPA Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 17 Oct 85 07:26:40 GMT Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon" Nevil Shute, "On the beach" George Stewart, "Earth abides" Andre Norton, "Daybreak: 2250 AD" (or some such date) Larry Niven, "World out of time" Spider Robinson, "Telempath" For rather different viewpoints, try Poul Anderson, "Brainwave" Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's cradle" Humfph. Most of these are 25-30 years old. Stewart will probably be hard to find; I think Norton was reprinted within the past 10 years, and Anderson was just reprinted. Can't find my copy of "When worlds collide," and don't recall whether that was Philip Wylie alone or Wylie and Balmer. Oh -- Edgar Pangborn, "Davy" Clifford Simak, "City" Walter M. Miller Jr., "A canticle for Leibowitz" These last two won International Fantasy Awards back in the 50s "City" before Hugos even, I seem to recall. ------------------------------ Date: Thu 26 Sep 85 22:54:10-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: The birth of SF-Lovers. > From: BOB (webber@red.rutgers.edu) > * anybody know when sf-lovers started (i assume a different > birthdate on USENET vs ARPANET, was the marriage immediate?)? The first letter in the archives is dated 15 Sept 1979, from lstewart@parc-maxc, announcing that Schmitz's Demon Breed was out in paperback. This passed through the SF-Lovers mailing list at MIT-AI, which was then just a mail reflector. There is a letter 3 days later from Richard Brodie (one of the first administrators), asking if someone was willing to donate disk space for back issues. Thus, the list may have been in existence for a while before mid-September, and we have lost that traffic. By mid-January '80, SFL traffic was bringing MIT-AI to its knees, and the list was on the verge of being banned. Out of this problem grew the digest format, moderated for the first year or so by Roger D. Duffey II. The very first digest appeared on 14 January 1980. I do not know exactly when USENET started having a regular SF mailing list. A VERY cursory examination of the archives shows a submission from sdcsvax!davidson@berkeley on 17 October 1980, and one from decvax!duke!unc!bch@berkeley on 15 December 1980. The latter certainly looks like uucp, but I am not sure about the former. The volume numbers are a little confusing until one realizes that until the start of 1984, there was a new volume every 6 months, and they have been yearly since. SFL now a occupies roughly 20 Mbytes. Peter Trei [I cant believe I've printed the Whole Thing!] ------------------------------ From: mmm!cipher@topaz.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #367 Date: 17 Oct 85 13:28:31 GMT >From: Bard Bloom >> Fourth and finally, consider how unlikely it is that even a Jedi >> knight could react to blaster fire fast enough to deflect it. >> Far more reasonable that he (or she?) can "pull" the bolt towards >> his (her?) sword. > >And, from a previous posting that I'm too lazy to find, words to >the effect of ``blaster bolts go so slowly that you can almost walk >away from them.'' Sounds like a fast person could move a >(virtually massless) sword to catch them. I have to agree with Mr. Bloom. Nobody is fast enough to deflect blaster bolts after they've been fired. The trick for a Jedi Knight is to know where the bolt will strike and start to move before it's fired. Extraordinary sense perception is not required for this activity, since it is easy to see where a gun is pointing and when the wielder's finger tightens on the trigger. Of course, if the wielder is far away, there is plenty of time to dodge the slow-moving (relative to C) bolt. ------------------------------ From: ptsfb!djl@topaz.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe) Subject: Re: great typo in "Stainless Steel Rat is Born" Date: 19 Oct 85 06:08:34 GMT chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >As long as we're talking about typos, I just started Harrison's new >book "A Stainless Steel Rat is Born" ... ... sharp tushes ..." > >You don't suppose they really meant tusks, do you??? *giggle* -- According to my dictionary (Webster's New Collegiate), a "tush" is a tusk, specifically an enlarged canine. Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell {ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl (415) 823-2408 ------------------------------ From: leadsv!sas@caip.rutgers.edu (Scott Stewart) Subject: Re: A Star Trek Rumor? Date: 17 Oct 85 21:13:44 GMT > From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA > In the flier for the Creation Con in Palo Alto this month they are > saying that their guest, Roger C Carmel (aka Harry Mudd) may be in > ST IV. Any other news from the Star Trek network? When and where is Creation Con? Scott A. Stewart LMSC - Sunnyvale ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 24 Oct 85 0955-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #414 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 24 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 414 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Herbert & McIntyre & Peake & Schmitz & Wolfe & Title Request Answered & Bugs & Feminist Authors (3 msgs), Films - Threads, Miscellaneous - Molecular Chain ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hyper!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Hail and Fare Well Date: 16 Oct 85 22:14:51 GMT As of November 8, 1985, I will no longer have access to UUCP, as I will be changing jobs. I hope to have a system which can handle such a node in the future, but it could be weeks, months, or years away. I hope only weeks. I have enjoyed being in this newsgroup immensly. Thank you all. I mention this here because my new job will be writing science fiction full time. It is a gamble, but I hope a good one. In any case, I hope the addtion of one more writer to the ranks is sufficiently newsworthy to stave off any thoughts of excessive arrogance on my part for mentioning it here. Wish me luck, folks. I'm gonna need it. Best Wishes To All, Steven Karl Zoltan Brust ------------------------------ From: mmm!cipher@caip.rutgers.edu (Andre Guirard) Subject: Re: Books into movies Date: 16 Oct 85 20:20:10 GMT andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes: >>Did you see the "ornithopter" flapping it's wings in the movie? >>Did the Baron look to you as if he was too fat to walk without >>suspensor globes? The book specifically mentions that the >>stillsuits were a slick gray material, not black leather. >> ... ... > The thing is that these are two different media, which treat >stories in two distinct ways. It's easy to write a book which >accurately follows a movie, but often almost impossible to make a >movie which accurately follows a book. Everyone has a different >idea of how faithfully a book could have been followed; in this >case, the author's opinion happens to be not as hard-line as yours. > I read that they tried to make the ornithopter wings flap, but >it just looked too hokey on film. (I thought that the whole idea >of ornithopters was hokey when I first read it!) As for the black >stillsuits - I'm sure that getting suits of the exact colour >mentioned in the book was not a prime consideration, and certainly >can't affect the story line too too much. > .."I did not write _Dune_ to make money or to interest others. I >wrote it merely because this story was burning inside me to be >Written..." > Sure. And my real name's Kchula-Rrit. The plot of Dune is really very complex. I think the problem is that they tried to make the movie TOO MUCH like the book. Details like colors of stillsuits and operation of ornithopters aside, they apparently attempted to cram in as much of the original as they could, which is just not the right way to make a movie. The result, as we have seen, is complete confusion among those who have not read the book (and many who have). I believe Frank Herbert when he says he wrote Dune because it was "burning inside him to be written" because of the poor quality of most of the sequels. These, apparently, he WAS writing for the money. Andre Guirard ------------------------------ From: chk@mordred (Chuck Koelbel) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 17 Oct 85 19:17:32 GMT Another excellent book in this genre is _Dreamsnake_ by Vonda McIntyre. It is an expansion of her short story "Of Mist, Grass, and Sand", also a good read (it forms the first chapter of the novel, but can be read on its own). Brief summary: Set in a world several hundred years after a global catastrophe (exact cause unknown, but it included nukes). Society has survived, but regressed to a sort of middle ages (semi-feudal society, little trade between towns). The main character is Snake, a travelling healer; Mist, Grass, and Sand are snakes which she uses to manufacture her medicines. The strong points of the book are the writing style, the characterization of Snake (and other human characters), and a very well- developed picture of the society of the post-holocaust world. Unfortunately, the ending is rather weak (in my opinion) - just a bit too pat for me to believe. For a first novel, however, it is extremely good. All in all, I would give this book 3 stars (out of 4). Highly recommended. Chuck Koelbel ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Gormenghast Date: 18 Oct 85 02:08:00 GMT terry@nrcvax.UUCP writes: >As a set of books, [Gormenghast] was okay, interesting, rather >ponderous, but imaginative. As a movie it would be really out of >place. I disagree. The Gormenghast books are very visual. Peake was also an illustrator and it really shows. Reading along you develop clear pictures of the various characters and scenes. I claim that part of the reason it reads so slowly is that the brain is working overtime developing detailed pictures. It would not be an easy movie to make, and it would probably have to be done in parts to be good, but a faithful version would be wonderful. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!wombat ------------------------------ From: mhs@lanl.ARPA Subject: James Schmitz (feminist sf/fantasy) Date: 21 Oct 85 03:29:34 GMT > A minor quibble on Schmitz. > The protagonist in A Tale of Two Clocks is Trigger Argee, not > Telzey Amberdon. The book Agent of Vega has 3 strong female > protagonists, and is my second favorite Schmitz book. (My fav of > course being The Witches of Karres) Most of Schmitz's writting has > strong female characters. > Chris Kostanick You're right, of course: "A tale of two clocks" isn't about Telzey. I recall a book, called "The Telzey toy," that is. Again, it isn't possible for me to vouch for the title. It's not that I'm guessing at something of which I've only heard. I've seen the books. I have the books; I even know where they are. In the garage. With several thousand others. All the space I want to fill with shelves for books is otherwise occupied. Wife. Son. Daughter. Strong protagonists all. And all with their own books. Now we are staking claims to son's room after he leaves for school. I've offered him shelf space, and he can sleep in the garage when he comes home. Perhaps this explains my vagueness about titles. I dislike to post guesswork, but circumstances prevent the precision I prefer. What does jayembee do? Catalogs occupy less space than the books themselves, but are in many ways less satisfying. Jerry, do you actually have all those books at your fingertips? In your house? If so, can I sleep in your garage? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 85 20:06:43 pdt From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Wolfe's Book of Days Gene Wolfe's Book of Days has been reissued in paperback by Arrow Books Ltd, a british publisher. I do not believe BoD has ever been published in paperback in America. Change of Hobbit (a bookstore in LA) still has about 5 copies of the Arrow edition. -Steve ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!somner@topaz.rutgers.edu (David Somner) Subject: Re: want norse gods book title Date: 18 Oct 85 15:59:50 GMT gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes: >I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a >modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing >to death, I think.) He's carried across the Bifrost where they're >getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost >Giants. He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb... I read this book as well. Unfortunately, this book lies about 400 miles away from where I am right now, so I can't remember the exact title. I believe that the title is "The Day of the Gods" or something similar. Don't rag on me too much if I can't remember the title! Very few people have read this book, as far as I can tell! UUCP: ...!{decvax, ihnp4, allegra, vax135}!cornell!lasspvax!somner Arpa: somner@lasspvax.tn.cornell.edu.arpa Bitnet: ruuj@cornella.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 85 19:34 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Insectoids... John Brunner wrote a novel about a race of creatures that were vaguely crablike, but different. Perhaps they will do? The book was called Total Eclipse and concerns the Earthmen trying to determine what caused these creatures to die out. It may not be what you are looking for since there are no living specimens, but it's the only one I can recall, unless... The story Sandkings was really weird, and the creatures were insectoid. I recommend this story highly. It is by George R.R. Martin and appeared in Omni and a book by the same name. Check this one out twice! Jon Bob ------------------------------ From: orca!ariels@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ariel Shattan) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 18 Oct 85 15:23:14 GMT > smithcollege%umass-ece.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes: >> I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors >>and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of >>sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some >>recommendations ... > > I'd send you mail, but I can't use the path you give. > > James Tiptree, Jr., is a woman & a hell of a good SF writer. Like Judith, I can't use your path. I second the Tiptree nomination, and would like to add: Jessica Amanda Salmonson: Editor of Amazons and Amazons II (feminist heroic fantasy) Vonda N. McIntyre Dreamsnake (Hugo winner) and others Spider Robinson Stardance (with Jeanne Robinson) and others Elizabeth Lynn The Sardonyx Net (her best in my opinion) C. J. Cherryh very prolific Chelsea Quinn Yarbro False Dawn (I like her sf much better than her fanatsy) Kate Wilhelm many books, excelent writer Octavia Butler Mind of my Mind, Clay's Ark, etc Marta Randall Jo Clayton Alytis series (fantasy, ok, but not a favorite) There are many more, and if you send me a uucp path, I can go through my library in a detailed way. I'm generally not willing to sacrifice good writing for political correctness, so I haven't got many of the feminist books that are out today. Ariel Shattan {decvax, ihnp4, allegra, uw-beaver, ucbvax}!tektronix!orca!ariels ------------------------------ From: utflis!chai@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Chai) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy(Norton & Anthony) Date: 19 Oct 85 19:11:53 GMT Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA writes: >* Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton >Another male writer who espouses feminist views. His female >characters are also very well written. Oh my GAAAWD! My favorite sf/fantasy writer, full name Alice Mary Norton, once dubbed as the "Grand Dame of sf", called a "male". A big brrrrphphph (raspberry) to you, Caro !-) Actually Andre is now her official name. When she started to write, she used the name Andrew North, and later, Andre Norton. Since then she has written a whole lot of books with this name, so she decided to have her "real" name changed officially . All this because way back then (1950's) there was no such thing as a female sf writer. She doesn't like to go to conventions. Also, she's already semi-retired now, so she's not well known (but her books are still widely available). I like all her Witch World books (a dozen or so of them ). Lately her stories have become, ur, let's say predictable (rather then boring). But with some newer ones she collaborated with another person, and these are quite good. >* A Spell For Chameleon, The Source Of Magic, Castle Roogna, etc., >Piers Anthony >I've found Piers Anthony to be an author who, unlike >many others, has no problem at all with feminist doctrine. AARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!! I'd like to hit anyone who'd recommend the Xanth novels to a feminist. THEY ARE SEXIST TO THE EXTREME !!!!!!! I mean, do you think that in a land where every female tries to look pretty, wants to show off their legs, and schemes to catch men for husbands, there is equality among the sexes? Now I'm not sure whether Piers Anthony did it tongue-in-cheek or not, since this sexism appear only briefly in the Blue Adept trilogy and the Cluster novels, and not in the other books by him that I've read. (I haven't read any of his recent stuff, they sort of put me off after the first few chapters). Anyway I'm not the only person who find the Xanth novels sexist. I have no idea what you mean by "female doctrine" if you believe that a feminist would enjoy these books. And another bbbrrrrphphphph to you ! Henry Chai a humble student at the Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 18 Oct 85 16:18:47 GMT > From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA > Here are my favorites: > * The Screwfly Solution, James Tiptree Jr. > For a man, Tiptree sure writes strong female characters well. I > also enjoy the upbeat endings that his novels always have. James Tiptree, Jr., SHOULD write strong female characters, if anyone can, since he is the pseudonym of Alice Sheldon. (We all fall into this trap; I even used "his" name in a novelty item I did in OMNI four years ago-- "Science Fictional Table of Elements.") arlan andrews, analog irregular ------------------------------ From: hou2d!lws@caip.rutgers.edu (lwsamocha) Subject: Looking for movie *THREADS* Date: 21 Oct 85 19:18:45 GMT I am searching for a source for the motion picture *THREADS*. It concerns survival(?) in a post-nuclear world. I believe it is a British Production about 2 or 3 years old, and it was shown on Public TV in the NYC area last spring, but has not been shown in the NYC area since. Has this movie been discussed on the net? Is it available on video tape? Thanx in advance. LWS hou2d!lws ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!norman@topaz.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: Light-saber construction... Date: 18 Oct 85 22:30:39 GMT mike@dolqci.UUCP (Mike Stalnaker) writes: > Rob, the sinclair chain is what held when it was used in >the Ringworld Engineers. Wu used the Shadow square wire as a >backup, and the extreme heat from the Sunflowers >broke/melted/something that. The Sinclair chain was the >superconductor. NOT the shadowsquare wire. I just read this book. Both molecule chain and superconducting thread were used. The molecule chain broke (presumably because it overheated), while the superconductor held (presumably because it was cooled by the lake to 100C). Incidentally, real superconductors have critical fields (electric, magnetic) beyond which they break down and are no longer superconducting. I'm sure the same phenomenon appears in heat conduction (it has to do with an energy level gap; once you put in enough energy from outside to excite electrons over the gap you can have losses), so I doubt the thing is actually going to sustain a treemendous current without breakdown. But it's *possible*. Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work) (607)-272-7750 (home) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Oct 85 0953-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #415 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 25 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 415 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & DeLint & Eager & Tevis & Zelazny & Feminist Authors (2 msgs) & Star Trek & Norse Gods (3 msgs), Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 02:10:58 CDT From: William LeFebvre Subject: Asimov and women From: carol at MIT-CIPG at mit-mc > Yes, Davis Tucker, Isaac Asimov does come off as being > chauvinistic toward women. He declares himself to be a former > chauvinist, now reformed, but what this amounts to, as far as I > can tell, is: > > Women are so cute, and cuddly, and mysterious, and I just want to > kiss them all!....(and they're smart, too). I would hardly call Asimov's character Susan Calvin a "cute and cuddly" woman! So, at least if Asimov is a "former chauvinist" then it doesn't always carry over into his s.f. William LeFebvre Department of Computer Science Rice University or, for the daring: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 05:47:38 PDT From: lah@ucbmiro.Berkeley.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Charles DeLint Ok, since nobody's contradicted it yet, I will. DeLint's first book was *not* HARP OF THE GREY ROSE, though the two stories are rather alike (minor SPOILER WARNING): Protagonist lives in ordinary generic Britishy village, events conspire to plunge protagonist into GREAT ADVENTURES, where s/he meets strange allies, discovers s/he has mysterious latent powers, and there is a battle with unspeakable evil. Despite the sardonic tone of that last, his stuff is VERY GOOD. Bibliography follows: [miscellaneous stuff published by his own press, Triskell, including the first of the Grey Rose stories] "The Fane of the Grey Rose", SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS IV (A. Offutt, ed.) Zebra, 1979 THE RIDDLE OF THE WREN (Ace, 6/84) [This is the first book] MOONHEART (Ace, 10/84) [My personal favourite] THE HARP OF THE GREY ROSE (Donning/Starblaze, 3/85) [Horrible edition, good book. Why must Donning persist in covering their books with processed orange peel?] MULENGRO: A ROMANY TALE (Ace, 10/85) [Would be his best, but for much violence -- he makes it unfortunately necessary to the atmosphere. Very suspenseful; couldn't put it down.] I think he's great stuff. His writing style gets better, tighter, cleaner all the time, though he persists in starting slowly. Can't wait for more! Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: hplabsc!oday@caip.rutgers.edu (Vicki O'Day) Subject: Re: Trying to remember a book title Date: 21 Oct 85 20:07:49 GMT The book you are looking for about a coin that grants wishes is called Half Magic, by Edward Eager. He is one of my favorite children's authors, and wrote six or seven other books in the same style as Half Magic. Some others are: Knight's Castle, Seven Day Magic and Magic By the Lake. The children in his books are very believable (they are childish, instead of being like little adults), and the stories have a humorous style. Eager (and his characters) are admirers of Edith Nesbit, another great writer of books with magic. His books are similar to hers, but easier for kids to read because they are set in a more recognizable present. Vicki O'Day hplabs!oday ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: FAR FROM HOME: collection of short stories by Walter Tevis Date: 22 Oct 85 03:45:57 GMT SF fans will most likely remember Tevis for THE MAN WHO FELL TO EARTH, or possibly MOCKINGBIRD. Movie fans will remember THE HUSTLER, based on Tevis's earlier (mainstream) novel. His stories were painted from a palette of greys, mostly dark, with an occasional flash of light or bright color. FAR FROM HOME is a collection of stories, set near and far away, all with SF or fantastic elements. This isn't a book for a single sitting, not so much because it's depressing, but because there's so little variety between the tales. And the older, harder SF stories are uniformly predictable. Tevis passed away recently; there will be no more of his dark prose, dammit. He was never very prolific, and this may be all the short fiction that could be brought together. It has become a eulogy for a writer far more powerful than this collection suggests. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: shark!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Amber Date: 20 Oct 85 11:09:05 GMT robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) writes: >SBALZAC%YKTVMX.BITNET@UCB-VAX.Berkeley.EDU writes: >> Someone brought up the point that Rinaldo could have walked >> Corwin's pattern and then destroyed it. First of all, to walk >> Corwin's pattern supposedly requires being of Corwin's blood (ie >> his descendant), in which catagory only Merlin falls. > >Why assume that Rinaldo walked the pattern at all? If my memory >serves me, he is never shown walking through Shadow; he draws >Trumps and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who >have never walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps >while still at the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos, >Chapter 1). Sorry, but at that time Merlin was an Initiate of the Logrus. I suspect from hints in Courts of Chaos that a Trump is impossible without intimate knowledge of the Pattern or the Logrus, and that Rinaldo may be an Initiate. It may also be that there are other ways to become a shadow walker, perhaps by using a magic ring or some such thing? In any case, Rinaldo shadow-walks in pursuit of Merlin (ok, so anyone can shadow walk by following a true Shadowwalker). But Rinaldo also draws trumps of places prepared as traps, and this indicates that he can find or create things in Shadow. I suspect he would have to get there somehow to do the trump; Merlin seems to have this limitation. Hutch ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 21 Oct 1985 09:22:25-PDT From: tillson%latour.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Feminist/Non-sexist SF & Fantasy Mary, In my opinion, the best writer of feminist/non-sexist SF and fantasy is a man! I am referring to Samuel Delaney. I especially liked his Neveryona series (Neveryona, Tales of Neveryona, and Flight From Neveryona). It is fine feminist fantasy; while I was reading it I had to keep checking the cover to convince myself that it was not written by a women! I also really enjoyed Dhalgren and his latest, Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sands. No flames, please, - I realize that Delaney is not to everyone's taste. He can be verbose and has never felt obliged to stick to traditional forms of fiction. He IS very non-sexist, whether one likes his literary style or not (I do!). Other feminist/non-sexist authors you might enjoy: Elizabeth Lynn, Vonda Macintyre, Ursula Leguin, and Johanna Russ. If you haven't discovered these fine writers already, I will gladly recommend titles for you. One last note: I am an avid reader of Marion Zimmer Bradley. I do not consider her radical feminist works non-sexist because of her often derogatory attitude towards her male characters. This is especially true of her most recent book, Warrior Woman, which read like a feminist version of Gor. (I read it and enjoyed it anyway. Took it with the same grain of non-sexist salt that I take with H. Rider Haggard and Robert Heinlein's (rather sexist) writing.) It just goes to show that the sexist shoe fits as badly on the other foot. /phae ------------------------------ From: andrews@yale.ARPA (Thomas O. Andrews) Subject: Feminist SF and S. Delany Date: 21 Oct 85 18:42:13 GMT >Sorry to say, I can't think of many male sf author that don't have >a Boy Scout's view of either the opposite sex or any kind of sex. >However, I do think that Samuel R. Delaney has never written >``sexist chaff''. I read Delany's _Triton_ this summer, and was impressed with his frank portrait of a male chauvinist. I'm not sure if a feminist could stomach the book, because the main character is such a bastard, but I found that he was a believable bastard. It's an unpleasant book which attacks many male self-deceptions that lead to chauvinism. At times, I was suprised at the similarity between this person and myself, and at other times, I loathed him. Any other perspectives? Thomas Andrews ------------------------------ From: Eyal mozes Date: Mon, 21 Oct 85 11:30:18 -0200 Subject: Star Trek novels, and a journal recommendation > One of the Star Trek novels, Price of the Phoenix by [two women > authors whose names escape me], deals with the problem of > identical copies of a person coexisting The authors are Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. I'm in the middle of it now (so you needn't be afraid of spoilers :-), and it is definitely worth reading. It has a great plot, it really brings to life the characters of Kirk and Spock, and it is also thought-provoking on more than one level - it deals with the "duplication" problem, and also raises interesting questions about the validity of the "Directive of Non-Interference". I read one review which claims that the Star Trek novels by Marshak and Culbreath are among the best SF novels written in recent years, and are better than the TV series in terms of profound, thought-provoking ideas. Other Star Trek novels by the same authors are The Fate of the Phoenix, Triangle, and The Prometheus Design (which, according to the reviewer, is not as great as the other three, but still very good). I bought all four novels in a recent visit to the USA, and now finally got around to reading them. The review appeared in a journal I highly recommend: Aristos - The Journal of Esthetics. It is a bimonthly 6-page journal, containing articles and reviews about all branches of art, including music, literature, the visual arts and the performing arts. It is beautifully designed, and reviews of the visual arts are always illustrated by good photographs. It's editorial policy is "to champion art which projects the best of Man and his universe, appeals to the best and finest in Man and, therefore, provides for many of us the emotional fuel we need in order to live". It has one SF reviewer; in the past, in addition to the review of Marshak and Culbreath, he also published an article about Verne and Wells, an article about Heinlein, and a review of Hogan's Voyage from Yesteryear. Their address is: Aristos P. O. Box 1105 Radio City Station New York, NY 10101 Eyal Mozes BITNET: eyal@wisdom CSNET and ARPA: eyal%wisdom.bitnet@wiscvm.ARPA UUCP: ..!decvax!humus!wisdom!eyal ------------------------------ From: h-sc1!moews_b@caip.rutgers.edu (david moews) Subject: Re: want norse gods book title Date: 21 Oct 85 22:21:15 GMT > slb@drutx.UUCP (Sue Brezden) writes: >>gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes: >>I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a >>modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing >>to death, I think.) He's carried across the Bifrost where they're >>getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost >>Giants. He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb... I >>thought it was a good read when I was 14, and I'd like to try it >>again. > > I think you are refering to one of the sections in The Compleat > Enchanter by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt (Ballantine > Books). It is the first story and is called "The Roaring > Trumpet". Well..."The Roaring Trumpet" doesn't exactly match this description. In "The Roaring Trumpet," the hero is transferred into an alternate world by some philosophical mumbo-jumbo, and only then meets the Norse gods: he does not meet the gods in this world, and they do not then carry him across the Bifrost bridge. Also, there was no atomic bomb used in "The Roaring Trumpet." Unfortunately, I can't think of any other book that might fit the description. ------------------------------ From: ptsfb!djl@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe) Subject: Re: want norse gods book title Date: 21 Oct 85 19:03:06 GMT >gordonl@microsoft.UUCP (Gordon Letwin) writes: >I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which a >modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's freezing >to death, I think.) He's carried across the Bifrost where they're >getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with the Frost >Giants. He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic bomb... Try "The Day of the Giants" by Lester del Rey 1959. The copy I have is an Airmont paperback published in 1964. Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell {ucbvax,amd,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl (415) 823-2408 ------------------------------ From: hp-lsd!steven@caip.rutgers.edu (steven) Subject: want norse gods book title Date: 21 Oct 85 17:55:00 GMT I think the book was by del Rey and was titled either "Day of the Giants" or "Twilight of the Gods" or some permutation thereof. I thought the pseudo-technological dwarves were fun. They could perform chemical analyses by taste, easily separate elements with handmade gizmos and pressure weld with their bare hands, but couldn't even drill a straight hole in a gun barrel. Steven Sharp [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who sent in similar information: Lynne C. Moore (Moorel@Eglin-Vax.arpa) Bill Richard (x!wjr@caip.rutgers.edu) ] ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Amazing Stories 10/5 Date: 21 Oct 85 18:39:57 GMT >>But this was a FARCE. Different rules apply. >> Sue Brezden > >Here, we get into the murky ground of artistic intent, of knowing >what was in the producer/director's mind. I agree, it was a FARCE. >The question is, was it *meant* to be? I don't think so, though >I'm willing to listen to arguments supporting that position. Afraid we'll only know that by asking Spielberg. My contention that it *was* meant to be is backed up by the sheer mass of silliness in the thing. Surely even Spielberg knows that aluminum cans aren't attracted by a magnet? And the characters were obvious broad, comical types. Spielberg is not that heavy-handed with characters ordinarily--whatever his other faults. >My responses are clouded by the perception that for many people, >that's all SF is -- a farce. >Jim Brunet I find that painful, also. Especially when my mother or father looks at the cover of the book I'm reading and says something like "Still reading that trash?" Sigh. But I also know people who were drawn into SF by such farces. We have to laugh at ourselves--heartily and often. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 85 17:42 CDT From: Kenneth_Wood Subject: Oct 20 episode of Amazing Stories. Did I miss something entirely, or was this the worst half hour of "SF" ever to appear on TV (I sorted liked the previous episodes, so I'm not attacking the series, just this episode). I believe that if "Alamo Jobe" had been submitted to ANY SF magazine under a different author's name (and hopefully even under the Spielberg name) it would have been rejected out of hand. What plot! What character development (notice how Jobe learned important lessons about life as he enriched the lives of those he encountered!). And suspence!! How did he get to the future? What was in the message? Did he make it back? One can only hope that this episode is not indicative of the episodes to come.... ken wood ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Oct 85 1037-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #416 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 25 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 416 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & Hubbard & Rucker & Norton & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Star Trek (3 msgs) & Feminist Authors (4 msgs), Television - Amazing Stories, Miscellaneous - Typos & Quote Source Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Brin Date: 22 Oct 85 16:13:51 PDT (Tue) From: Dave Godwin Just bought and read Brin's 'Postman'. I'll reserve discussion of the book until more have read it. I will state that it is a very good story, not as good as Startide Rising, but real good. Has anybody gotten to the new Heinlein or Hogan books yet ? Dave ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 85 17:27:16 PDT (Tuesday) From: RPOLLARD.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #408 Do the fiction books that L.Ron Hubbard writes have anything to do with Scientology ? I was wondering if his fiction is really his "prediction"? (The rhyme was unintened) Rich ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: MASTERS OF SPACE AND TIME and THE MEANING OF LIFE by Rudy Subject: Rucker Date: 22 Oct 85 03:47:33 GMT MASTERS OF SPACE AND TIME concerns two scientists who manage to futz with the laws of the Universe, and their comic adventures as they lose and save the world. Fun, with some interesting bits on the nature of reality. THE MEANING OF LIFE is about a young man during the early sixties, and his pursuit of booze, good times, pranks, the Meaning of Life, and getting laid. This starts out as a mainstream novel, but the SF elements (some cliched, some cute) become more pronounced as the novel progresses. It turns out the main character has some very pressing reasons to investigate the Meaning of Life. In both books, Rucker's prose is invisible, which is usually the best thing one can say about a writer's style. There are some nifty ideas, too. Rucker does some philosophizing about reality, what it means to change it, and what it means for it to change, and what it means to be stuck with it. Two fairly good light reads. Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ From: osu-eddie!francis@caip.rutgers.edu (RD Francis) Subject: Re: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 22 Oct 85 00:37:26 GMT > Andre Norton, "Daybreak: 2250 AD" (or some such date) I believe this book was re-released as _Star_Man's_Son_ -- Norton has a number of other books that fall in this category, but I can't remember most of their names at the moment. RD Fozz Francis ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!francis or francis@osu-eddie.UUCP ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 1985 08:09:21-EDT (Tuesday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Amber Since creating a Pattern causes a genetic change in the creator, merely being of the blood of a house of Chaos shouldn't do any good. The implication, repeated throughout the first set of books, is that you must be descended from the creator of the Pattern so that you will get the proper 'resonance'. ------------------------------ From: hou2g!scott@caip.rutgers.edu (Colonel'K) Subject: Re: Amber (NOT a spoiler) Date: 22 Oct 85 19:48:33 GMT Why the hell does an article with the seemingly innocuous title "Amber", which actually discusses Trumps of Doom, not have A GODDAMN SPOILER MARKING ON IT? Just because YOU have read the book doesn't mean the rest of the world has. Me? I'm waiting for the sequels to come out. If I hadn't had the first five books to read in a row, I would have been awful pissed at Zelazny. Who enjoys a novel that ends practically in the middle of a sentence? Scott J. Berry ihnp4!hou2g!scott ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!gt3403b@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: re: Price of the Phoenix Date: 24 Oct 85 01:37:01 GMT Marshak & Culbreath also wrote TRIANGLE, a novel involving the "New Humans" that were mentioned in the novelization of Star Trek: TMP. I thought the PHOENIX series was very good. They did a nice job of exploring the problems and paradoxes of body duplication, morality and the Prime (Non-interference) Directive. I thought the characters were handled rather well, as well. In the Star Trek series & novels, you rarely get to see exactly what makes a Starship Captain special. People are aware of the fact that due to the communications lag between a starship and it's base, a starship Captain has to be able and is *required* to handle tricky situations (often involving possible war) on his own as the only representative of the Federation on hand. However, this is rarely brought out in either the novels, series, or movies. You can see why they don't put just anybody in command of starship because if he screws up, the Federation may find itself out an ally, port, treaty, or in a war. In the PHOENIX series, you get to see the characters (heroes and "villains" alike) functioning at their limits in near-impossible circumstances. The glitter gets torn off, so to speak, and you get to see what kind of people they really are. So, it's a very tense and intense book and atmosphere, but given the story, it's definitely justified. It's also noteworthy that the "villain", Omne, turns out to be someone you can admire. Even considering the fact Morshak and Culbreath shatter the Star Trek universe (bend would definitely be an understatement here), I'd consider the PHOENIX series (along with Diane Duane's books) the best ST novels out there. Ray Chen gitpyr!chen Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!chen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 12:25 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Price of the Phoenix amqueue: Please, No! If I were Jacqueline Lichtenberg or Joan Winston, I would sue! You're probably thinking about Star Trek Lives! a non-fiction book about the ST phenomenon. Jacqueline is best noted in ST fiction for her Kraith fanzine series. Joan also wrote The Making of ST Conventions. The Phoenix books (Price of and Fate of) were written by Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. They also wrote The Prometheus Design, and perhaps a few another ST novel or two. Fandom is remarkably divided on the subject of whether these books are great literature or trash, but my vote is strongly for the latter. They also edited two pro books of ST short stories, New Voyages I and II, which caused a lot of flack from the authors whose stories were edited. Lisa Wahl Star Trek Welcommittee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 14:08 PDT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Re: Price of the Phoenix Sigh. Price of the Phoenix was written by Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. Anne Quint probably thought that Jacqueline Lichtenberg and Joan Winston wrote the book because Lichtenberg, Winston and Marshak wrote Star Trek Lives!, published in 1974? Jacqueline has never written a professional trek novel. Before doing the gen/sime books, she created an elaborate offshoot of Star Trek called Kraith, which thirty or so authors have written subsidiary stories for over the years. Apart from the literary merits of Price of the Phoenix, Marshak and Culbreath were not highly thought of in trek circles, although they may have redeemed themselves by now. They edited two collections of fan fiction, Star Trek: The New Voyages, I and II. I do not know the truth of the matter, but at least three of the authors of stories they printed report that (1) their stories were altered for publication, without their permission, and/or (2) they were not paid (and remember that ST:NV sold a lot of copies). Lubkin [Moderator's Note: Thanks to the following people who also sent in similar information: e.c.leepr (mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu) Susan Brown (utflis!brown@caip.rutgers.edu) ] ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 85 07:27:00 CDT From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" Subject: female authors, feminist works >From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA >Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in >a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't >had a chance to read any of those books. Well, that's true; however, I don't really think the Gor books are what the original requestor had in mind. The society of Gor is *extremely* male-dominated. I read the first 2 or 3 of these when they came out, and thought they were written tongue-in-cheek, but gradually came to the conclusion that they weren't; this is one case where I believe the author really *is* saying what his characters say. My recommendation for an excellent feminist novel is _Native_Tongue_ by Suzette Haden Elgin. Elgin's Ozark Trilogy (_Twelve_Fair_Kingdoms_, _The_Grand_Jubilee, and _And_Then_There'll_Be_Fireworks_) also have very strong female protagonists (and are a lot of fun, to boot!) marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 1985 10:23:30-EDT From: jcr@mitre-bedford.ARPA Subject: feminist SF.... > From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA > Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in > a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't > had a chance to read any of those books. Yeah, I'd say that "radically different" is proabably an appropriate description, but Norman's approach is NOT likely to be appreciated by most feminists! Hardcore chauvinists, maybe.... > From: rti-sel!wfi@topaz.rutgers.edu (William Ingogly) > You might check out a couple of collections of SF by women that > came out a few years back: "Women Of Wonder" and "More Women Of > Wonder." I'm not sure about the name of the second collection. > Both were available in paperback a few years ago. I believe both titles are correct, and I think they were both edited by Pamela Sargent (thought this might help you find them). Another collection along the same lines was "Millennial Women" edited, I think, by Virginia Kidd. (Confirmation, anyone?) Regards, Jeff Rogers jcr@Mitre-Bedford.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Tue 22 Oct 85 09:17:01-PDT From: Evan Kirshenbaum Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #409 To: Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA >Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in >a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't >had a chance to read any of those books. "Different" is the operative word. As in "nobody else gets away with such sexist trash". In all fairness, the first book is excellent and doesn't foreshadow his future treatment of women. I've heard that the first seven are good and the last thirty-odd are trash. (I read a random sample in the teens and twenties (three of them), and it really took some arm twisting for a friend to convince me to read the first one). Evan Kirshenbaum ARPA: evan@SU-CSLI UUCP: {ucbvax|decvax}!decwrl!glacier!evan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 13:28 EDT From: " Roz " Subject: Gor and women, Female authors with 'male' names > From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA > * The Screwfly Solution, James Tiptree Jr. > For a man, Tiptree sure writes strong female characters well. I > also enjoy the upbeat endings that his novels always have. Sorry, someone just said 'James Tiptree Jr.' (previous issue) was a woman--do we know (on "authority") who is correct? > * Witch World, etc., by Andre Norton > Another male writer who espouses feminist views. His female > characters are also very well written. She has been my favorite sf author for about 26+ years (she authored my first sf book). I believe she also wrote under the name of Andrew North (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) for a while as well. > Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in > a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't > had a chance to read any of those books. Sorry, Commodore Perry, if I were a feminist or wanted female characters portraying women as something other than property, the Gor series would be low (very!) on my list of reading. Please bear with me, I've not read a Gor book since 1977 or 1976. I read the first 4 or 5 books in the series and a few others later. (I wanted to see if they had improved since I had last read them). John Norman and the Gor books stick vividly in my mind because prior to reading them, I had never read material which I had considered as pornographic before [yes, I've read Ovid's _Metamorphoses_, and Heinlein's _Glory Road_, but not _Playboy_, et al. Please remember, I had a conservative upbringing and led (lead?) a very sheltered life!]. In a way, (and considering my age at the time, etc) they were fun, in part--but I also found them depressing! My comments ranged, in the 2nd & following books, from "I've got to finish this book to see how the hero solves this--Norman must have some twist to the end, NO hero is that stupid, that consistently" to "Norman must have some weird ideas about women to portray them consistently as 'slaves waiting for their master to fullfil them--even the free women secretly want to be slaves'". As I recall his characters and society were relatively consistent (for the ones I read), and I will admit thinking "oh, that's an interesting premise" or "that woman doesn't fit his mold [but she did, later]", but only those generic comments come to mind--not the specifics as with his characterizations of the hero and the women. Please feel free to 'educate' me if I have missed something, and am putting Norman's Gor books down unnecessarily. Roz ------------------------------ From: pyuxa!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (B E Nemeth) Subject: Re: "Alamo Jobe" (AMAZING STORIES) Date: 23 Oct 85 15:48:26 GMT All I can say is that like everyone else, I'm very, very disappointed in this series! I expected so much more, and got even less!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 85 10:56:29 PDT From: Pavel.pa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Typos I noticed recently an impressive typo on the back cover of \Tactics of Mistake/, a novel in the Childe Cycle by Gordon Dickson. The back cover talks all about this guy Donal Graeme and how he has this new style of soldier in mind and how he's going to change the known universe with it. It mentions Donal Graeme as the protagonist several times. There's just one problem with all this: Donal Graeme is the hero of the book \Dorsai!/, which takes place 200 years later! Cletus Grahame is the central character of \Tactics of Mistake/; he's Donal's great-grandfather... Pavel ------------------------------ Date: Thu 24 Oct 85 09:24:26-EDT From: Gern Subject: Star Trek Question I have been trying to remember where in Star Trek, shows or movies, Kirk said something to the effect: "We all have to take a chance, especially if one is all we have". It has been driving me nuts trying to remember that line for some reason, and I don't have a VCR or anything to search. My first guess is "Tommorow Is Yesterday"??? Anyone have a confirmation? Thanx. Cheers, Gern ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Oct 85 1106-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #417 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 26 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 417 Today's Topics: Books - Bova & Shutes & Tepper & Zelazny (2 msgs) & Feminist Authors (3 msgs) & End of the World Stories (4 msgs), Television - The Max Headroom Show ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1985 18:34:38 EDT From: Michael Caplinger Subject: short review of Ben Bova's PRIVATEERS Ben Bova used to write some OK books. I thought his zenith was MILLENNIUM [not to be confused with Varley's book of the same name] - a novel with good characters and a well-thought-out, technically smooth plot. Who could forget the pacifist Air Force commander, Chet Kinsman, and his successful revolution against both the USSR and the United States? Now, along comes PRIVATEERS - another offering in the endless stream of blatant pro-defense ranting by SF writers (the other big offender here is Jerry Pournelle). PRIVATEERS is, quite simply, a terrible book. Basic plot: in a few decades, the Russians have succeeded in building the ABM defense that the US was too short-sighted, and have completely taken over the industrialization of space and most world trade, while the US has become a giant, coal-burning slum subsisting only on agrarian labor. A few countries (like Japan) are struggling to make it in space against the Russian stranglehold, with little success. I'll stop here, the title gives the entire plot away. The characters are just awful. We have the incredibly competent US expatriot who risks his life, his company's existence, and the whole free world for his love for a young, beautiful girl; a whole collection of evil Russians led by an ultimately evil young commissar (who is also after the girl); and a wimpy pacifist woman US president who still harbors desire for Our Hero. If you read Bova's COLONY, you'll recognize most of these characters (except it was terrorists there, not Russians). Unbelievably, PRIVATEERS is even worse than COLONY was. Unless you're one of those people who holds your breath for the next sequel to THERE WILL BE WAR (Pournelle's war story "collection" soapbox) skip PRIVATEERS. Kind of a shame. It's surprising that the person who wrote MILLENNIUM wrote this too. Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.arpa ihnp4!bambi!mike ------------------------------ From: ecn-pc!mdm@caip.rutgers.edu ( Mike D McEvoy) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF Date: 18 Oct 85 18:52:40 GMT >Let's not forget Nevil Shutes book On the beach. This was one of >the first classics of the after the destruction type. It deals >with the situation as encountered by an American submarine on duty >at the start of the War. Both the movie and the book are >excellent. > Bob... Arg... Both the movie and the book may have been good from a literary standpoint, but from a standpoint of technical accuracy they were a disaster. Typical doomie viewpoints that ignored little things like the short half life of fallout, etc. Even at that time, we had a fairly good understanding of the true effects of a nuclear war (at least high level effects of radiation). Literary license has never been a valid excuse for gross technical/scientific errors. No Flame intended to you Bob, it's just that authors who practice their craft should keep their facts straight - it does a dis-service to write "hard" science fiction from a position of authority and call it science fiction. Fantasy is a much better label. Big Mac ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: WIZARD'S ELEVEN by Sheri S. Tepper Date: 22 Oct 85 14:45:29 GMT The jacket reads: "The son of Mavin Manyshaped is back. Let the Players of the True Game beware. A giant stalks the mountains. The Shadowpeople gather by the light of the moon. The Bonedancers raise up armies of the dead. And the Wizard's Eleven sleep, trapped in their dreams. Players, take your places. The Final Game begins." This is the third book of the "True Game" series, the other two being KING'S BLOOD FOUR (which I reviewed last time) and NECROMANCER NINE. The world in these books is full of people with talents, and there are hundreds and hundreds of talents recognized. The story is told by Peter, a shapechanger, who is 17 (he was 15 in the first book). Peter possesses a set of gamepieces, each player of which contains the persona of a very old Talent. He is one of a small number of Gameplayers who has learned a sense of justice, and he is opposed by Huld, a Demon, who has designs on making himself a world power. Peter's association with the game pieces and his opposition to Huld is brought to a conclusion in the book, and we learn quite a bit more about how Peter's world is related to our own. All three of the books are very well crafted. The stories unfold in a pleasing, comfortable manner, and the world is believable, not one that was hastily put together so that the characters would have someplace to act. Peter is a likeable character: he is good-natured, but he has his foibles too. Further, he acts "in character". I found myself quite interested in what's going on, but I seldom had the "I can't put the book down" feeling I get when a story is really gripping. That's not necessarily a shortcoming, of course. I would classify the book as serious fantasy; by this I mean that the characters have powers that one typically finds in fantasy novels, but that (1) there is a pattern to the talents, and (2) there's a connection between this "fantasy" world and our own mundane world, and this link is one of the underlying themes of the series. I give this book and the series 3.0 stars (very good). Duane Morse ...!noao!terak!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: sphinx.UChicago!paws@caip.rutgers.edu (Randy Smith) Subject: Re: Amber Date: 23 Oct 85 17:19:18 GMT > and uses them instead. Trumps can be drawn by people who have > never walked the Pattern -- Merlin drew a number of Trumps while > still at the Courts of Chaos (see The Courts of Chaos, Chapter > 1). > Robert Plamondon > {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert Yes, but you must have walked the Logrus to do so. Merlin says (in one of his conversations with Bill) that one must be an initiate of either the pattern or the Logrus to draw trumps. Merlin even says that the person who drew his "Trumps of Doom" (ie. Rinaldo) WAS an initiate of either the pattern or Logrus because the Trumps he drew were too good to have been done by someone who was simply from a nearby shadow of Amber or the Courts. Randy Smith UUcp: . . . ihnp4!gargoyle!sphinx!paws Arpa: dvlp.dilvish%uchicago.mailnet@mit-multics.arpa CSnet: randy@uchicago.csnet ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 1985 08:22:11-EDT (Thursday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Amber Rinaldo does indeed walk through Shadow, specifically when he meets Merlin on the way to the Ghost Wheel and later drags him off to the cave. Since he had no way of knowing where the Wheel was, he couldn't have drawn a trump for it, but would have had to have followed Merlin's trail. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 22 Oct 1985 15:35:26-PDT From: goldenberg%istari.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Ruth Goldenberg) Subject: feminist sf/fantasy for Mary Malmros Previous replies have mentioned most of the feminist (or non-sexist) authors I'd recommend: Ursula LeGuin, Panshin's Rite of Passage, Joanna Russ, James Tiptree, and John Varley. Another author is Kate Wilhelm. In case it hasn't been mentioned, add "Dreamsnake" by Vonda MacIntyre (spelling?) to your list. I recommend all of Tiptree, but I was especially taken with a story called (approx.) "The Women Men Never See", about a woman and her daughter who run off with aliens secretly visiting the earth. When the woman is asked how could she and her daughter stand the thought of spending the rest of her life with alien and strange creatures, she replies to the man who asked, "That's nothing. We're used to it." As 10 other people will have undoubtedly pointed out by now, Tiptree is a pen name for a woman author. (And Andre Norton is also a woman.) I strongly second/third/whatever the recommendations for Joanna Russ. I think you should start with a (very) short story she wrote called "When It Changed." It's the most powerful short story I ever read. Even on the nth (n>10) reading, it packs an enormous emotional punch. For me, that short story is a better comment on the gender differences issue then anything else I've read. It hits me a lot harder than LeGuin's "Left Hand of Darkness". If you like "When It Changed", try "The Female Man", a novel partly related to the society described in the short story. Another work by Russ I especially like is "Picnic on Paradise." have fun, reg ------------------------------ From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu (Guy M. Smith) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 22 Oct 85 17:24:18 GMT > Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in > a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't > had a chance to read any of those books. I read a couple of the Gor novels while waiting for a Greyhound in Mojave (in other words, I was desperate). My impression of his attitudes towards women was that it would be rather hard to be much less feminist. By comparison Phyllis Schlafly is a flaming liberal. As an example, he seems to believe that a women's deepest desire is to be a slave to a man. Not having read all the books I can't vouch for all that he's said but I suspect the rest are similar. Guy Smith ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 23 Oct 85 21:07:36 GMT > James Tiptree, Jr., SHOULD write strong female characters, if > anyone can, since he is the pseudonym of Alice Sheldon. (We all > fall into this trap; I even used "his" name in a novelty item I > did in OMNI four years ago-- "Science Fictional Table of > Elements.") > arlan andrews, analog irregular Look, being female does NOT guarantee that one can write strong female characters!! Nor does being male preclude the ability to write strong female characters! Now, if anyone wants a flame session, just for fun, we can cite examples of female authors who write lousy female characters: o Swooning females can be found in great abundance in romance novels, such as those marketed by Harlequin (admittedly, most of this stuff is probably not science fiction or what we like to call fantasy--at least, I'm guessing because you don't think I'm going to read them all! :-) ); many of these are written by women o Anne McCaffrey--okay, I have to admit to a fondness for Lessa, but _Restoree_ was dreadful! I'm being a little mean to pick on one book out of many. o A E Van Vogt's female characters are only really bad when he collaborated with his wife--I wonder what her influence was on this. (Yes, call me ignorant! But enlighten me with your opinions!) In addition, many protagnists authors wrote about mostly male (C. L. Moore, Leigh Brackett, Andre Norton (at least her early stuff))--many of these stories today might be written with a female protagnist, but at the time they were written the authors thought, at least it seems obvious that Moore and Norton thought so, that no one would take seriously a book by a woman--a female protagnist would be preposterous. And the same is true for male authors: I think today you have more of an opportunity to make a choice about the gender of your characters--they don't have to translate into strong, carries a sword ==> male And, well, maybe this is too late, but if I've insulted your favorite author: look, I read the stuff, didn't I? (And I'll probably read more too!) L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ------------------------------ From: faron!wdr@caip.rutgers.edu (William D. Ricker) Subject: Re: Man-in-Rubble Date: 22 Oct 85 17:10:44 GMT I've enjoyed the End-of-the-World (as-we-know-it) and the After-the-Fall sub-genres. One of each that I remeber fondly that haven't been mentioned here: Catastrophe: Timestorm, Gordy Dickson After-the-fall: Var the Stick, Andre Norton (Var may be "juvenile"; the hero is.) William Ricker wdr@faron.UUCP (UUCP) decvax!genrad!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP) allegra,ihnp4,utzoo,philabs,uw-beaver}!linus!faron!wdr (UUCP) ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x268) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble Date: 22 Oct 85 06:52:06 GMT The new book by David Brin " The Postman". A good SF book and a great read. Well written. Oleg Kiselev. ...!trwrb!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ From: h-sc1!moews_b@caip.rutgers.edu (david moews) Subject: Re: Man-in-Rubble Date: 23 Oct 85 20:56:26 GMT > After-the-fall: Var the Stick, Andre Norton > (Var may be "juvenile"; the hero is.) "Var the Stick" is by Piers Anthony. It is part of the "Battle Circle" trilogy consisting of: Sos the Rope Var the Stick Neq the Sword As far as I know, it is not a juvenile book. David Moews ...!harvard!h-sc1!moews_b moews_b%h-sc1@harvard.arpa ------------------------------ From: aesat!dale@caip.rutgers.edu (Dale Groves) Subject: Re: Man-in-Rubble Date: 23 Oct 85 13:17:18 GMT wdr@faron.UUCP (William D. Ricker) writes: >I've enjoyed the End-of-the-World (as-we-know-it) and the >After-the-Fall sub-genres. One of each that I remeber fondly >that haven't been mentioned here: > >Catastrophe: Timestorm, Gordy Dickson >After-the-fall: Var the Stick, Andre Norton > (Var may be "juvenile"; the hero is.) unless i'm mistaken, i believe Var the Stick part of Piers Anthony's "Battle Circle" series - Var the Stick, Neq the Sword and Sos the Rope. Andre Norton has written Star Man's Son (also published as Daybreak 2250 A.D.) as an EOTW novel, and perhaps Star Rangers (also pub. as The Last Planet) as an ATF type. Dale R. Groves {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!aesat!dale ------------------------------ From: glasgow.glasgow!days@caip.rutgers.edu (Judge Dredd) Subject: Re: The Max Headroom Show Date: 22 Oct 85 18:28:33 GMT > The episode ends with Edison Carter's life in total question. > But previews of next week's, show the possiblity of the Network > replacing Carter with one of Brice's computer simulations. All in all a pretty good resume, however I have some bad news. :-(. When "Max Headroom" came out over here, it appeared to be a pilot for a series. However, the series it is a pilot for is nothing to do with the news-crew. I'll try not to give too much away. A computer simulation of Carters Brain is made with the plan of using it for news reports. However, due to Carters accident, his brain is not functioning properly and suffers from a severe speech impediment. The computer gets thrown out and is found by a DJ for Channel-7, an extremly low-budget TV company which plays pop - videos all day. Max ( The computer ) becomes a DJ, and Channel-7 becomes very popular. The follow-on series is a program which intersperses pop-videos with a computer-animated head. It's rather well scripted, and worth watching, but a bit of a disappointment to anyone expecting an sf-series. What I reckon you will see is the original pilot-film split into TV-viewer-concious-timeable chunks. Stephen Day, Comp Sci Dept, University of Glasgow, Scotland seismo!mcvax!ukc!glasgow!days ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Oct 85 1131-EDT From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #418 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 26 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 418 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Hodgell & Sagan & Star Trek & The Wolf Worlds & Way Station & Single Sex Societies & Feminist Authors (2 msgs), Comics - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Films - Threads, Television - Max Headroom, Miscellaneous - SF Con & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Excerpt: "A Little Leaven", by Isaa Date: 24 Oct 85 00:41:00 GMT > Well, where should one start? With the simple truth that the great > Dr. A doesn't know jack about commas, and uses them in the wrong > place at the wrong time? Or with his smug, egocentric male > chauvinism toward his daughter, her "lovely co-worker", and his > wife, whom he refuses to name? It's his ex-wife, which may have something to do with his not naming her. > How about something more substantive - like why in the hell is > this vignette included in a science history article about the > discovery of yeast? What does his condescension toward his > beautiful daughter and his resultant foul aspersions on her > parentage have anything whatsoever to do with anything that any > human being besides an Asimov worshipper would want to know? Many people like Asimov's personal pieces better than the science articles they precede. I have no doubt that ego enters into it, but Asimov is just providing what a substantial portion of his audience is asking for. > I mean, "unmistakeable Asimovian features" my left hand of > darkness! Does anyone you know talk about his daughters > "Jacksonian features" or "Alberryesque features" or "Rospachian > features"? No, but I don't see why they shouldn't. > How many people do you know who would refer to their daughters in > print as "gorgeous women"? How many writers have you ever read > that would say "she was asked to play the role, at sight, in her > grammar school...", and totally forget that there is no such > construct as "at sight" (it is correctly "at first sight")? From the Random House Dictionary: sight ... 11. at or on sight, immediately upon seeing. > More questions - how does even the demigod of science fiction, the > master of prolix spew, get away without having this kind of > ridiculous, embarrasing drivel of a father slobbering over the > fact that he actually raised a daughter that ended up looking good > and going into some sort of social worker program (that he > not-so-subtly hints at being amusingly disapproving of) edited out > of his otherwise good and informative article? Why does he think > that anyone in his right mind or even his left mind would find > what he has to say about his daughter, her adorable liberal > tendencies and her Aryan makeup, in any way germane to his article > about yeast, or even to the more global, meta- fictional point of > essay-writing? > > I just don't get it. Could somebody clue me in? Because people keep telling him that they want to read more of this stuff. Scott McEwan {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan ------------------------------ From: dartvax!betsy@caip.rutgers.edu (Betsy Hanes Perry) Subject: New P.C. Hodgell (author of Godstalk) Date: 24 Oct 85 16:06:02 GMT Well, that's the good news: "Dark of the Moon", P.C. Hodgell, Argo Press (Atheneum), 1985, ISBN 0-689-31171-0 And, yes, it is a sequel to "Godstalk". I bought it ten minutes ago, so that's all I know. The bad news: it's in hardback. Save your pennies! For those who haven't encountered Hodgell, I heartily recommend her first book, "Godstalk". It's set in Tai-Tastigon, a city so convoluted that it makes Lankhmar and Sanctuary seem straight-forward. The heroine, Jame, is an amnesiac; she begins the book fleeing, though she knows not what or why. She also has rather unusual hands... the fingernails seem to be retractible. It's a fascinating book; I'm saying as little as possible to avoid giving anything away. Off to Tai-Tastigon again, Elizabeth Hanes Perry UUCP: {decvax |ihnp4 | linus| cornell}!dartvax!betsy CSNET: betsy@dartmouth ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relay ------------------------------ Subject: Recent book list... From: Brent C.J. Britton Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1985 01:06 EDT >From: hplabsd!faunt@topaz.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt) >This is the books received at OCOH for September, FYI, pulled off >SCI-FIDO, a SF oriented BBS in Oakland CA, run by Mike Farren. >Debbie is Debbie Notkin, of LOCUS review fame. >Sagan, Carl COSMOS > First novel. _Cosmos_ is a wonderfull book by Carl Sagan, but it is not a novel. The title of Sagan's new -- and first -- novel is _Contact_. I just finished it and love it, but more on this later... Brent C.J. Britton Brent%maine.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 12:29 PDT From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Harry Mudd Gossip: Those discussing the Harry Mudd rumors might be interested to know that one of the ST pro authors has been trying to sell a Harry Mudd ST novel to Pocket for years. And had great frustrations with one of the previous ST editors who kept referring to "Harvey Mudd." Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 16:32 PDT From: Hank Shiffman Subject: THE WOLF WORLDS by Allan Cole & Chris Bunch >From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) >The book is mainly action and adventure, and it has some >interesting characters. Occasionally the storyline jumps a bit, and >the first "episode" in the book is a little short and doesn't seem >to have all that much to do with the other ones. But keep reading. This is a sequel to the book Sten, which gives the origin of the major characters. It's as much fun as Wolf Worlds. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 85 07:55 EDT From: " Roz " Subject: Way Station Question Recently I received the SF Book Club edition of _Way Station_, author's name not remembered. The reason I don't remember is that my husband idly picked up the book the day it came in and I haven't seen it without him in tow, since! What is the book about--can someone review it without spoiling it? Why, you ask? My husband doesn't like science fiction (exception: Stainless Steel Rat series), he likes Louis L'Amour and Andy Rooney; he also does NOT read fiction books much, especially not on a daily basis. It seems that everytime he has a few spare minutes, this book is in his hand. When I ask him what the book is about, I get maybe four words from him--I guess he's not a 'book reviewer'. Again, I ask what does this book have? If this book has been covered previously in SF-LOVERS, please respond to me directly, since I must have missed it! Thanks--Roz (RTaylor@radc-multics) ------------------------------ From: COBLEY A (on DUNDEE DEC-10) Date: Friday, 25-Oct-85 13:51:01-BST Subject: mono sex societies Question For any biologist out there, what's the feasability of taking genes from two females and combining them together, replanting them in a ovum and so get birth from the result. I realise that only female children could be born this way ( YY chromsone?) and this leads me to the main thrust of the question. What would a society be like if all repoduction (or most ) was done this way since the society would consist entirley of females.What would be the role of males (if any existed),would they be kept as pets? revired?, or treated as equals (they would certainly have 'abnormal' sexual disires as far as the rest of society was concerned, unless you use two male genes and find a kindly womb donor.) Any one know of any stories based on this? Any ideas on the fesability, society, role of men. ttfn andy. A.COBLEY%DUNDEE@UCL.CS ------------------------------ From: whuts!6243tes@caip.rutgers.edu (STERKEL) Subject: RE: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 24 Oct 85 18:37:20 GMT >> I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy >> authors and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm >> sick of sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some >> recommendations from sisters or brothers out there. >> Mary Malmros > You may already have these, but Ursula Leguin and Joanna Russ are > the first names to come to mind. The former is probably my > favorite author. The latter is pretty good. One other book is > "Native Tongue" by Suzette Elgin. Another writer is Marion Zimmer Bradley. She has cranked out acceptable to very good SF. In the SF catagoy, she has a series of books on a "colonized/forgotton/decline to barbarismpainful move to civilization/special power discovery/rediscovery by earth" planet called "Darkover". Some of the Darkover books apparently were co-authored by member(s) (?) of her fan club (Darkover Society?) (I am fuzzy on details). In this group, I recommend Thenarda (sp) House, a beautiful book on friendship and switching places between alien cultures. It is currently available in main line bookstores. Marion has branched out into fantasy, writing (in her own words) "my first non-pot-boiler serious bood" "Mists of Avalon", a very large book on some best seller lists. It is very rich and consequently a slow read. I have had to put it aside for later several times which is a novel (pun intended) experience for me as I devour the average SF/Fantasy in 5-6 hours. Marion also is a frequent contributor to the Thieves world series Asprin, editor). Terry ihnp4!whuts!6243tes ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: Asimov and women Date: 23 Oct 85 12:03:36 GMT >From: William LeFebvre >I would hardly call Asimov's character Susan Calvin a "cute and >cuddly" woman! So, at least if Asimov is a "former chauvinist" >then it doesn't always carry over into his s.f. > William LeFebvre > Department of Computer Science > Rice University This is a failing of many male sf-authors (probably including myself) that the only way they can produce a strong female character is to create one that behaves more like a man in a man's world. Admittedly, this does happen in business, but it still remains very difficult to create a *female* character. It takes a true genius like S. Delany. R.Ramsay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 10:28 pst From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Truly Bizarre SF Comix I have just been turned onto a comic book that really piqued my weird gland, it is called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It is just what it sounds like, a band of four kids who are turtle shaped [with shells] and trained as Ninja. Their names are Leonardo, Michaelangelo, Raphael, and Donatello. In issue number 5 they find themselves on another planet [having stepped into the TransMat Beam at the end of issue 4] helping a Fugitoid [a scientist trapped in a robot body] escape from 1) the government [who want his TransMat device to beam bombs onto enemy ships] and 2) the Triceratons [the enemy]. The boys do a good job in a situation that is completely out of their league. The mag is a b&w with interesting art and beautiful dialogue. I heartily recommend it. Check with your local comix dealer and make your request. Remember, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! Oh yes, there are miniatures and a role playing game out too, but I haven't seen them. Jon ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Looking for movie *THREADS* Date: 24 Oct 85 12:48:48 GMT lws@hou2d.UUCP writes: >I am searching for a source for the motion picture *THREADS*. It >concerns survival(?) in a post-nuclear world. I believe it is a >British Production about 2 or 3 years old, and it was shown on >Public TV in the NYC area last spring, but has not been shown in >the NYC area since. > >Has this movie been discussed on the net? > >Is it available on video tape? It was repeated here during the week of the anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima. As far as I know it is not available on videotape here. I don't know about the USA, but that would be depend on the conditions under which the BBC licensed it to the Public TV Network. FYI, the BBC showed the notorious 'War Game', directed by Peter Watkins circa 1964 for the FIRST TIME during the anniversary week. It seems that they were afraid that the effect of the film would be to cause mass suicide when it was first made. It's still a very powerful film, more so than 'Threads' in my opinion. The gritty B+W documentary look of it helps. It's also fascinatingly dated. Do see it if you have a chance. It's been available on 16mm film for many years, someone may have copied it to tape. Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 14:09:34 cdt From: Alan Wexelblat Subject: Max Headroom, episode 2 In my area (Austin, TX), Cinemax is showing Max one episode per week, with four showings of the same episode during the week. The week begins on Wednesdays, at 6:30PM CDT. Episode 2 is every bit as interesting as 1, and it includes an extensive (4 minute) summary of episode 1, which gives you the full plot, and very little of the `feel.' Again, I won't give away the plot, except to say that there is more humor here than in 1. I especially recommend that the "man-in-the-rubble" people watch it. Episode 2 gives some wonderful characterizations, with one of the bad guys quoting Shakespeare and calling the other a "Luddite." The British are clearly aiming at a more literate/educated market than their American counterparts. Still excellent computer graphics, including a good example of a program that is (to some extent) self-debugging. The action is a bit slower this time, and there's a truly bizarre bedroom that has to be seen to be believed. Alan Wexelblat WEX@MCC.ARPA ------------------------------ From: orca!ariels@caip.rutgers.edu (Ariel Shattan) Subject: SF Convention in Portland, OR in November Date: 23 Oct 85 19:46:43 GMT OryCon '85 Nov 8-10 Portland Hilton (downtown) Guest of Honor: Somtow Sucharitkul Artist Guest of Honor: William Rotsler Toastmaster: Steven Barnes Other guests include: David Brin, Dean Ing, Mildred Downey Broxon, Steve Perry, Richard Purtill Activities include: Panels, Art Show, Dealers' Room, Video, Films, Dances, Masquerade, more. For more info, write: OryCon '85 P.O. Box 5703 Portland, OR 97228 or call: (503) 692-3657 This information brought to you by... Ariel Shattan Chair OryCon '85 ..!tektronix!orca!ariels ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 85 13:54:23 cdt From: Alan Wexelblat Subject: A different thought about time travel One of the things that annoys me about time travel (which I haven't seen mentioned yet) is authors who propose time travel without a corresponding ability to travel spatially. It seems to me that time travel *must* imply spatial (not necessarily space) travel because if you move in time, then the spot you left from is going to be in a different spatial location when you stop moving in time. (That is, its position will be different w.r.t. the universe. The planets still move, the solar system still rotates, the universe still expands.) Can anyone think of SF in which time travel was explicitly separated from spatial travel? (Replies to me, please.) Alan Wexelblat WEX@MCC.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Oct 85 0919-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #419 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 419 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Eager & Norman (2 msgs) & Williams & Feminist Authors (2 msgs), Television - Archetypal episodes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Later Asimov From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1985 09:30 EDT I feel compelled to rush to the defense of poor (figuritively) Dr. A. He's been getting quite a lot of bad press on SFL. Jim Brunet writes, >Asimov's fiction today is as painful to contemplate as watching a >great, over-the-hill ballplayer (like Willie Mays?) trying to hang >on. Sad. > > Finally, the WRITING. Asimov -- and I do love the man, his > early works along with Heinlein's and Norton's juveniles were > what brought me into the sf field -- has become a literary 800 > lb. canary. Nobody will edit him. Nobobdy *has* to. Why > should Doubleday bother, when anything he now writes is > guaranteed megabucks best-seller? > > His dialogue has gotten excruciating and much of the narrative > is dull and plodding. If you or I had turned in those > manuscripts with our names on them, they would have been > returned at light-speed, perhaps with a note saying "you have > potential, but do join a workshop, okay?" I believe, that like any writer, Asimov is entitled to hot and cold spells. I agree, in part, with what jmb has stated. Asimov has become a machine of sorts, (Hmmmmm, maybe he's actually been replaced by a humaniform robot), churning out books upon whatever subject he's asked. I disagree however, that they're all lousy. ** Mild Spoiler Warning ** The Foundation's Edge, judged against the backdrop of the original books of Foundation Trilogy, does come up short. I think the concept of Gaea was/is an unfortunate idea and I was saddened to read about the once great mentalists of the 2nd Foundation reduced bickering children. Asimov does have a tendency to make his characters a little too smart, and this problem was exaggerated in this novel. ** end spoiler ** I like the Robots of Dawn however....really liked it. Lije Baley continues to be one of my favorite science fictional characters. I think this novel even comes out clean in comparison to the earlier Robot novels, particularly The Naked Sun, which I thought the weaker of the two earlier ones. Truth is I liked it better than the Naked Sun, and on par with the Caves of Steel. The Robot novels do represent the marriage of science fiction and the mystery, with which Asimov dabbles, (Murder at the ABA, The Union Club Mysteries). One of Asimovs strengths is the surprise ending and the R of D had a good one. To be fair to Isaac in his declining years, I think that it should be noted that some of his 'Golden years' stuff were duds or near duds. Take the 'Stars Like Dust' for example, or the 'God's Themselves' (yes I know it was later, but really, if you think sex with robots is weird) . Yes, I would put Foundations Edge well ahead of each. Were I to give a rough ranking of some of Asimovs major novels, it might look something like this; 1) Foundation 2) 2nd Foundation 3) Foundation and Empire 4) Caves of Steel 5) Robots of Dawn 6) Pebble in the Sky/ End of Eternity/Naked Sun 7) Currents of Space 8) Foundations Edge 9) Gods Themselves 10) Stars Like Dust I have just received from the Sci Fi bookclub, my copy of Robots and Empire. Am looking forward to reading it next. ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Date: 25 Oct 85 17:16:55 PDT (Fri) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #413 >When I was in the third grade (about 24 years ago) I read a book >that sort of got me started on science fiction/fantasy. It >involved some kids who found an old coin which granted them >wishes... sort of. The coin was so old that they had to wish for >everything twice to get a complete wish, otherwise they only got >half of what they wished for. The book you are looking for is "Half Magic" by Edward Eager, and it has recently been reissued. Eager is a great children's fantasy writer and his books are always available in the children's section at the local public library. Others are "The Time Garden", "Magic by the Lake", "Well Magic", and "Knight's Castle". Two sets of children are involved, the ones in "Half Magic" and their children in "Knight's Castle". Two of the books contain the same scene, one with the parents-as-children and the other with their children-as-children. Several other fantasy authors picked up on this ploy after Eager: McCaffrey uses it in joining the adult fiction Pern books to the children's version ("Dragonsinger", "Dragonsong", "Dragondrums") series, and Jane Louise Curry uses it in her series about Abaloc. I love recursive literature. Christe McMenomy christe@rand-unix ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Gor (was SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #409) Date: 24 Oct 85 17:49:36 GMT >>Others have suggested that John Norman's Gor series treat women in >>a radically different way than most other authors, but I haven't >>had a chance to read any of those books. > "Different" is the operative word. As in "nobody else gets away > with such sexist trash". In all fairness, the first book is > excellent and doesn't foreshadow his future treatment of women. > I've heard that the first seven are good and the last thirty-odd > are trash. (I read a random sample in the teens and twenties > (three of them), and it really took some arm twisting for a friend > to convince me to read the first one). There are currently only 21 "Gor" novels. Perhaps a 22nd has just hit the stands, but nowhere near "thirty-odd". (List after signature!) He's also written the non-Gor books GHOST DANCE, IMAGINATIVE SEX, and TIME SLAVE. And Sharon Green (another DAW author) writes novels similar to John Norman (her books are blurbed as "If you liked John Norman, you'll love Sharon Green!" Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl John Norman's "Gor" Books: 1 Tarnsman of Gor 12 Beasts of Gor 2 Outlaw of Gor 13 Explorers of Gor 3 Priest-Kings of Gor 14 Fighting Slave of Gor 4 Nomads of Gor 15 Rogue of Gor 5 Assassin of Gor 16 Guardsman of Gor 6 Raiders of Gor 17 Savages of Gor 7 Captive of Gor 18 Blood Brothers of Gor 8 Hunters of Gor 19 Kajira of Gor 9 Marauders of Gor 20 Players of Gor 10 Tribesman of Gor 21 Mercenaries of Gor 11 Slave Girl of Gor ------------------------------ From: watdaisy!gjerawlins@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory J.E. Rawlins) Subject: Nosy Question #1. Date: 25 Oct 85 08:57:04 GMT ecl@mtgzz.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: >And Sharon Green (another DAW author) writes novels similar to John >Norman (her books are blurbed as "If you liked John Norman, you'll >love Sharon Green!" Ever since i finished the SF Poll the associated Bibliography has been growing (now up to 310K) and i've been accumulating a fund of Nosy Questions that, hopefully, knowledgeable netters can help me with; the above quote sparked the first. It was bruited about that "Sharon Green" is really a pseudonym for "John Norman" (which is of course a pseudonym for John F. Lange, Jr.). Anyone know if this is true or not? (one of my sources told me that Tiptree was only "uncovered" after some fans lurked at her post office drop and waited to see who would come pick up the mail.) BTW, if you think it unlikely that an author would write through two layers of pseudonyms, Kenneth Bulmer as "Alan Burt Akers" is writing as "Dray Prescott". I have literally _dozens_ of such questions so i'll try to minimize net congestion by only asking a few at a time.... Here is the List entry for Norman, could some kind soul supply his vital statistics and the missing publication dates? Also comments on my classifications of his works and any classifications of you own are welcome. (what's "Ghost Dance" about?) Norman, John [nee [Professor] John F. Lange, Jr. Ph.D.] Time Slave [1975] [fantasy, time travel, subjugation of women] Ghost Dance Imaginative Sex [sf sex manual for people into bondage] The Chronicles of Counter-Earth: [Burroughsian sword and sorcery, sadism, bondage, fetishism, demeaning to women] Tarnsman of Gor [1966] Outlaw of Gor [1967] Priest-Kings of Gor [1968] Nomads of Gor [1969] Assassin of Gor [1970] Raiders of Gor [1971] Captive of Gor [1972] Hunters of Gor [1974] Marauders of Gor [1975] Tribesmen of Gor [1976] Slave Girl of Gor [1977] Beasts of Gor [1978] Explorers of Gor Fighting Slave of Gor [Jason Marshall I] Rogue of Gor [Jason Marshall II] Guardsman of Gor [Jason Marshall III] Savages of Gor Blood Brothers of Gor Kajira of Gor Players of Gor [1984] Mercenaries of Gor Gregory J. E. Rawlins gjerawlins%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa gjerawlins@waterloo.csnet gjerawlins@watmath.uucp Dept. CS, U. Waterloo [Moderator's Note: The poll referred to is much too large to post in the digest. It totals about 100 disk pages! If anyone wants to FTP it to read it is: T:POLL.TXT at RUTGERS. No requests for mailing it will be honored; if you can't get access with FTP you are out of luck!] ------------------------------ From: unc!cm@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Mosher) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF Date: 24 Oct 85 17:37:01 GMT I have not seen mentioned an excellent series of books that came out fairly recently by Paul O. Williams. They are about man's comeback from a nuclear Armegeddon which had pushed the level of society down to a nomadic tribal culture. I really enjoyed them. The titles are: The Breaking of Northwall The Ends of the Circle The Dome in the Forest The Fall of the Shell (my favorite) An Ambush of Shadows The Song of the Axe (2nd favorite) I recommend reading them in order. Although not necessary, it fleshes out references in subsequent books to create a more solid feel for the cultural milieu. They are published by Del Rey. Enjoy! Chuck Mosher !decvax!mcnc!unc!cm ------------------------------ From: looking!brad@caip.rutgers.edu (Brad Templeton) Subject: Re: feminist SF.... Date: 25 Oct 85 19:24:52 GMT It's not hard to explain why Piers Anthony and John Norman both write such excellent feminist SF. They are in fact, women. Anthony is the pen-name for Toni Pearce, who lives in Boise, Idaho. She started writing under a male name because she felt she was having trouble getting rejections because she was a woman. John Norman, alias Norma Johnson has been writing Gor books for years. I'm a bit surprised to see postings claiming "John Norman" as a good male feminist writer since I thought everybody knew this. I'm probably the millionth person to point this out. Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473 ------------------------------ Date: Sat 26 Oct 85 02:46:30-EDT From: Peter G. Trei Subject: MZB and feminism. Oh goody! MZB as feminist writer is finally revived in SFL. There is a wonderful bit of MZB trivia I have been waiting for months to mention, and it is finally time. This entry appeared in the Fancyclopedia II by Richard Eney in 1959: (start of quote) FANNETTES: Prime mover for this all-girl fan club was Marion Cox. Her club included 50 or more femmefans, such as Carol Mckinney, Maril Shrewsbury, Vee Hampton, DEA, and others, but \not/ Marion Z Bradley, who wrote in the club 00, The Femmizine, for Jan '53: "Frankly I think it's impossible for women, with no help from the 'sterner sex', to do anything in the literary fanzine field. Man alone can manage something of strength and talent without feminine influence. It may be graceless, even ugly, but it will be strong. Women alone, sans masculine influence, impetus, or admiration, produce nothing of worth." /Aw, shucks Marion.../ To justify this vigourous opinion the club, formed in 1952, ran down in 1953, was revived in mid-1954 by Honey Wood and Noreen Falasca, and collapsed once more. (end of quote) It amazing how much peoples veiws can change over the years. On a related topic, there have appeared many notes slagging caro.pa@xerox.arpa for his letter in #409 describing Tiptree and Norton as male, and recommending Gor for its 'radically different' veiw of women. Good God, lighten up a bit! Any but the most narrow reading shows this letter is a joke! It sometimes seems that people cant recognize humor in the absence of a :-). Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468) Subject: Archetypal episodes Date: 24 Oct 85 15:35:24 GMT Isn't it funny how the same old themes keep rearing their heads (ugly or otherwise) in popular sf tv shows. It occured to me that one could probably "distil" the most typical of these to form a resulting "gestalt" episode from the essence. Take, for example, the following gestalt "Star Trek": A mysterious thingie made of energy of a type never before encountered snares the Enterprise (which of course is made helpless) and takes it off to a nearby planet. All the command crew beam/are beamed down and discover a race of child-like innocents who compel them to stay against their will. One of the not-quite-so-young innocents falls in love with Kirk (as they have a habit of doing) and tells Kirk all she knows about her race. Spock raises an eyebrow and says "interesting". Kirk does some theorizing (which Spock should be doing) and convinces himself that the entire planet is a computer and the only way to free his ship (which has by now almost freed itself anyway) is to talk to it and hopefully make it explode as most of them do whenever Kirk tries to confound them with his logic. Spock raises an eyebrow and says "logical captain". Kirk then goes to a likely spot and starts to talk to the computer which isn't interested. Kirk asks the computer a question ,"WHY?",the computer responds "WHY NOT?".(Sorry ,wrong series). After a few minutes of related waffle the computer is convinced that Kirk is its creator and gives a thirty second countdown to its own destruction. All the crew is beamed up except for Kirk because a transporter malfunction has occured.(20). Kirk turns to jelly.(15)...The transporter is made "partially" functional...(10). Kirks stomach (most of him) is beamed aboard and split into two identical gut buckets except that they have different temperaments. One can't digest too much science..(5). Realising that having two stomachs in command of a Starship was a non-functional idea, Spock puts the transporter right and repatterns the whole of Kirk (1)..(0)..(-1)..Just in time Kirk is beamed aboard with stomach. The whole planet explodes. Kirk is hungry. Spock reminds him of the non-intervention policy. Kirk finds a good reason why he interfered and caused so many megadeaths. He then makes a witty comment about Spocks ears. The bridge explodes with laughter. Spock retorts with some logic and raises an eyebrow quizically. End Titles. The episode wins a HUGO award. Lets have some more..... Andy T. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 28 Oct 85 0945-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #420 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 28 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 420 Today's Topics: Books - McCaffrey (3 msgs) & Simak & Varley & Williams & Zelazny & Story Requests (2 msgs) & Feminist Authors (2 msgs), Comics - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Mono Sex Societies (2 msgs) & Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: utflis!chai@caip.rutgers.edu (Henry Chai) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy(re: McCaffery) Date: 25 Oct 85 19:04:40 GMT >Now, if anyone wants a flame session, just for fun, we can cite >examples of female authors who write lousy female characters: > o Anne McCaffrey--okay, I have to admit to a fondness for Lessa, > but _Restoree_ was dreadful! I'm being a little mean to pick on > one book out of many. Hear! Hear! I've often thought of said book as a Harlequin Romance in an sf setting. _Decision on Doona_ is equally horrible: women are seen as the belong-in-the-kitchen-and-overly-sensitive type. There was one passage about a little boy describing in detail how the "native" aliens kill a local beast for food, and his sister started crying and said something like "Horrible! Horrible!" and ran to her room. The mother gave the boy an angry look, rushed after the girl to comfort her, while father and son looked at each other in understanding and smiled. Yuck! But I must point out that comtemporary McCaffrey, e.g. "Crystal Singer", treats the two sexes equally. (the two "bad" books are very early McCaffrey) Henry Chai, Faculty of Library and Information Science, U of Toronto {watmath,ihnp4,allegra}!utzoo!utflis!chai ------------------------------ From: unirot!liz@caip.rutgers.edu (Mamaliz ) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy(re: McCaffery) Date: 26 Oct 85 15:51:48 GMT McCaffrey wrote Restoree as a spoof. At least that is what she has been saying for a number of years. I think it is a fun spoof, but then, I do not expect everything I read to mirror my politics. lizzy ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!mangoe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charley Wingate) Subject: McCaffrey and Feminist SF Date: 26 Oct 85 23:03:46 GMT Ann McCaffrey has been accused by Henry Chai (and probably others) of "[writing] Harlequin Romance[s] in an SF setting." I will not argue this one way or the other (since I haven't read either of the panned books), but I would like to point out that the people who avidly read the Darkover books tend to be devotees of the Pern books too. It would be interesting to see McCaffrey together with MZB, K. Kurtz, Diane Paxton, and Jaqueline Lichtenburg at the same con (but I'm probably not going....). Charley Wingate ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Cliff Simak and THE OUTER LIMITS Date: 26 Oct 85 10:04:23 GMT > From: hpfcla!mpm (Mike McCarthy) > I believe that the "Outer Limits" episode in question was > based on the book "The Duplicated Man" by James Blish (or maybe it > was Murray Leinster). As I remember, the TV episode was quite > faithful to the plot in the book. (I don't remember if the > endings were the same.) > I would be surprised if Clifford Simak EVER wrote anything > like this book. His reputation as the "pastoral novelist of SF" > is no accident. His style of writing would result in a very > different novel if he were to start with the same theme of > "personal duplication". Sorry, you're wrong. The episode in question, entitled "The Duplicate Man", was based not on the Blish & Lowndes novel of a similar title, but on a Clifford Simak short story entitled "Good Night, Mr. James". If you want to look up this story, it appeared in the following places: Galaxy Science Fiction, March 1951 THE OUTER REACHES (edited by August Derleth) [U.S. editions only; in Britain, it's in the derivative anthology, THE TIME OF INFINITY.] THE GALAXY READER OF SCIENCE FICTION (edited by H. L. Gold) ALL THE TRAPS OF EARTH AND OTHER STORIES (Simak collection) [U.S. editions only; in Britain, it's in the derivative collection, THE NIGHT OF THE PUUDLY. In fact, in this British edition, the story in question was retitled to be the title story.] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: John Varley Date: 26 Oct 85 10:18:09 GMT > From: caip!Lubkin > By the way, John Varley is also a pseudonym. Sorry, but you're wrong. John Varley has *used* a pseudonym, Herb Boehm (only once, for the original magazine appearance of "Air Raid" because he had another story in the same issue under his real name), but John [Herbert] Varley is his real name. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: wateng!clelau@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric C.L. Lau) Subject: Re: Man-in-the-Rubble ... more SF Date: 26 Oct 85 18:20:28 GMT cm@unc.UUCP (Chuck Mosher) writes: >I have not seen mentioned an excellent series of books that came >out fairly recently by Paul O. Williams. They are about man's >comeback from a nuclear Armegeddon which had pushed the level of >society down to a nomadic tribal culture. I really enjoyed them. >The titles are: > The Breaking of Northwall > The Ends of the Circle > The Dome in the Forest > The Fall of the Shell (my favorite) > An Ambush of Shadows > The Song of the Axe (2nd favorite) I've also enjoyed this series called the Pelbar Cycle. The seventh, and from the looks of the the last, in the series just appeared in the bookstores up here in Canada. It's called _The_Sword_of_ Forbearance. It essentially brings to a climax all the preceding events and characters. I wouldn't exactly say that this is a recent series. The first book came out about seven years ago I think, I'm too lazy to check. All in all it's a good series about the resurrection of civilization in North America. The characters are a bit predictable at times but usually quite interesting. The main weakness in the last book is an overabundance of main characters. If you haven't read any of the previous books it can get overwhelming but I guess that's true for any closing or last book in a series. Eric Lau ...!{utcsri|ihnp4}!watmath!wateng!clelau ------------------------------ Date: Sat 26 Oct 85 18:56:22-PDT From: Stuart Cracraft Subject: You! You! In the audience! Have you read LORD OF LIGHT by Roger Zelazny? Did you like the ideas? Did you like the setting? For that matter, what didn't you like? What would you change? Stuart Cracraft (cracraft@isi-vaxa) ------------------------------ From: teklabs!donch@caip.rutgers.edu (Don Chitwood) Subject: Anybody remember this one? Date: 24 Oct 85 18:23:31 GMT When I was getting into Science Fiction as a kid in the late 50's, early 60's, I was reading a book called "THE OTHER SIDE OF HERE". Author not remembered. It had to do with alternate worlds/other dimensions. Does anyone remember this one? Author?? Don Chitwood donch Imaging Research Labs Tektronix, Inc. Beaverton, OR ------------------------------ From: nrcvax!terry@caip.rutgers.edu (Terry Grevstad) Subject: Looking for "The Best Policy" Date: 22 Oct 85 21:07:02 GMT Once upon a time, I read a story in an anthology that stuck with me. It was called "The Best Policy" but I can't remember the author's name or the anthology in which it was published. Brief synopsis: A man gets picked up and questioned by aliens who want to take over the human-known part of the galaxy. They have a machine which causes great pain if he doesn't tell the absolute truth. By dint of telling the "absolute" truth, he convinces the aliens that they couldn't possibly overcome the humans, and had better bow down and pay tribute instead before they are totally wiped out themselves (something akin to stepping on an ant). End synopsis. Anyway, I would really love to get a copy of this story since I could reread it about every 6 months and not get tired of it. If anyone out there knows the author and/or the anthology it's in, please let me know. Thanks in advance. Terry Grevstad Network Research Corporation ihnp4!nrcvax!terry {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry ------------------------------ From: nrcvax!terry@caip.rutgers.edu (Terry Grevstad) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 22 Oct 85 20:47:01 GMT > I'm looking for the names of some feminist sf/fantasy authors > and/or works. I've already got a few favorites, but I'm sick of > sorting through sexist chaff and I could really use some > recommendations from sisters or brothers out there. Mary Malmros What about Kate Wilhelm (sp?), WHERE LATE THE SWEET BIRDS SANG? She also has another out that I can't remember the title of right now that is quite feminist and quite good. Anyway, I enjoyed it and I'm definitely not a feminist. She's just a good author and writes from the woman's standpoint. If you want other titles, send me mail and I'll get them from home. Terry Grevstad Network Research Corporation ihnp4!nrcvax!terry {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry ucbvax!calma!nrcvax!terry ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 26 Oct 85 10:31:10 GMT > From: dec-miles!chabot (Lisa Chabot) > ...just for fun, we can cite examples of > female authors who write lousy female characters: > o Swooning females can be found in great abundance in romance > novels, such as those marketed by Harlequin (admittedly, most > of this stuff is probably not science fiction or what we like > to call fantasy--at least, I'm guessing because you don't think > I'm going to read them all! :-) ); many of these are written > by women I almost hate to tell you this, Lisa, but there is *one* Harlequin romance that is fantasy ("our" kind of fantasy): THE FLOWER OF ETERNITY by Margery Hamilton. It's a "lost race" fantasy. If you want to read it [:-)], I have a copy. [No, I haven't read it; I found out about it from a friend for whom bibliography is as much a business as for me.] --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 26 Oct 1985 03:12:53-PDT From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Bizarre SF comic > From: "pugh jon%b.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA (Jon Pugh) > I have just been turned onto a comic book that really piqued my > weird gland, it is called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It is > just what it sounds like, a band of four kids who are turtle > shaped [with shells] and trained as Ninja. One correction: they are *not* "four kids who are turtle shaped"; they are actual turtles that mutated after exposure to radioactive material (in a hilarious parody of the origin of the Marvel Comics superhero, Daredevil). And by the way, folks, before you start belittling this, the comic is done tongue-in-cheek and is *not* meant to be taken at face value. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.ARPA ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_akaa@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Ada Arromdee) Subject: Re: The next Star Trek Movie??? Date: 25 Oct 85 17:59:53 GMT scco@ur-tut.UUCP (Sean Colbath) writes: >wildstar@nmtvax.UUCP (Andrew Fine) writes: >>Captain Robert April, who was the first commander of the >>Enterprise, was made an Ambassador upon promotion to Commodore >>after his five year tour ), or becoming Star Fleet Commander In >>Chief. > >I think you will find that Captain Pike was first Captain of the >Enterprise... No, there was an animated episode where it was shown that Robert T. April was the first. Since "Robert T. April" was one of the original set of names from which the names Pike and Kirk were chosen as names for Star Trek captains, this probably was an in-joke. Kenneth Arromdee BITNET: G46I4701 at JHUVM and INS_AKAA at JHUVMS CSNET: ins_akaa@jhunix.CSNET ARPA: ins_akaa%jhunix@hopkins.ARPA UUCP: {decvax,ihnp4,allegra}! seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!aplcen!jhunix!ins_akaa ------------------------------ From: h-sc1!samson@caip.rutgers.edu (gregory samson) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 26 Oct 85 22:50:49 GMT A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.ARPA writes: > Question > For any biologist out there, what's the feasability >of taking genes from two females and combining them together, >replanting them in a ovum and so get birth from the result. I >realise that only female children could be born this way ( YY >chromsone?) and this leads me to the main thrust of the question. Before the main thrust, let me get in a slight parry. It's not necessary to have genes from two females to combine together; all you need is a way to stimulate the egg to divide. That way, you can get variety by using the eggs from many and various women. > What would a society be like if all repoduction (or most ) >was done this way since the society would consist entirley of >females.What would be the role of males (if any existed),would they >be kept as pets? revired?, or treated as equals (they would >certainly have 'abnormal' sexual disires as far as the rest of >society was concerned, unless you use two male genes and find a >kindly womb donor.) > Any one know of any stories based on this? > andy. A.COBLEY%DUNDEE@UCL.CS Something similar to this existed in E. E. Smith's books, in the culture of Lyrane II. It wasn't purely women in the sense that you state; instead, "males" (not men) are described as "dwarfs about 30 inches tall" and they are "not regarded as people, at birth or at any subsequent time." (The frequency of male birth is about 1 in 100.) They are nearly unintelligent, since all they are needed for is "the fundamental necessity of reproducing the completely dominant female." Women are referred to as "persons" (since males are not persons and do not exist in society). They use males simply as adjuncts to breeding, after which the male is disposed of. The concept of "female" does not exist to the women, since they do not consider themselves the opposites of males; indeed, they barely acknowledge their existence. I have no way of being certain, but I think this might have been a clever stab at the pulp-fiction stories involving one lone spaceman on a planet of women. All that the "persons" of Lyrane II feel for the ultra-macho Kim Kinnison is revulsion! G. T. Samson The Evil MicroWizard gts@wjh12.HARVARD.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" Subject: Single sex societies A very good novel dealing with the transition of a two-sex society to a single-sex (female) society is John Boyd's _Sex_and_the_High_Command_. Try it. ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" Subject: Typos A postcript to the typo discussion -- while bookshopping this weekend I picked up the new Heinlein. An errata sheet fell out. Really! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 29 Oct 85 0924-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #421 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 29 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 421 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Hodgell & Hubbard & McCaffrey & O'Donnell & Tiptree & Varley & Vinge & Star Trek & New Books & A Request & Mono Sex Societies & Children of the Atom, Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Locus & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 11:23:46 est From: romkey@BORAX.MIT.EDU (John Romkey) Subject: new books I just picked up Heinlein's latest, "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" (inside, subtitled "A Comedy of Manners") in hardcover from a local random bookstore, so it is now out. I also saw "Job" and "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" in paperback. So far (75 pages into it), The Cat seems like good old Heinlein. One of the two main characters so far keeps saying "Want to go back to bed?" The other is a former military type with a disability who has taken up writing as a profession. Sound familiar? john romkey romkey@borax.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1985 11:18:24 EST From: Michael Caplinger Subject: THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS - short review (mild Subject: spoilers) micro-review: worse than FRIDAY (less plot, less action, less motivation, less character development); better than NUMBER OF THE BEAST. None of the redeeming strangeness of JOB. Lots of references to other work, and because of that, RAH fans will enjoy it. Quite mediocre Heinlein. Wait for the paperback and read MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS again. *** Now for the spoilers. *** The first half or so of the book, things are looking up. The plot's not great, but you're in familiar territory and hoping Heinlein will do something with this return to one of his most successful worlds. Alas, he doesn't carry it off. I might as well tell you now - this book has plot elements (and characters) from NUMBER OF THE BEAST (and therefore from most other Heinlein, by transitivity). The consensus opinion is that this is a bad thing. The first half or so takes place in the universe of MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS, which we learn is the same universe as FRIDAY's. The speculation that MISTRESS's universe was the same as that of THE ROLLING STONES (there were only a few hints in MISTRESS) is also pretty well wrapped up. Other than that, I'm not sure what to say. The second half of the book reads a lot like a slightly tightened up version of the last third of NUMBER OF THE BEAST - which isn't much of a recommendation. And the ending is fragmentary at best. Remember all those author blurbs on FRIDAY? Like Harlan Ellison applauding the return of classic RAH? Well, there isn't ONE blurb from anybody on CAT. Seems likely that no one could write one in all honesty. This book is worth reading only by diehard RAH fans. At best, you'll want to read MISTRESS and THE ROLLING STONES again afterwards. Mike Caplinger mike@bellcore.arpa ihnp4!bambi!mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 14:45:02 pst From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Godstalk A while ago I bought a book called "Godstalk" by P.C. Hodgell. I was able to finish it, but felt like I had been ripped off. A crazed plot without "sequel warnings" combined with insufferably cute talking cats. Godstalk is a poor womans version of Norton's "Breed to Come". Not recommended. ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x268) Subject: Re: Replies Date: 26 Oct 85 21:34:57 GMT >From: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix >> From: William LeFebvre >> It's out. I've actually seen a copy in a B. Dalton's (or was it >> Walden's? --same thing). It is 500+ pages, standard hardback >> size book, but the typing is very large (about 12 point, I think) >> and the interline spacing is generous, which compensates for the >> number of pages. I wasn't that interested in the book, so I >> didn't bother looking at the price. An interesting aside: one of >> the preliminary > >Hubbard and Bridge Publications represent (in my opinion) an >insideous attempt to redefine SF and Fandom into Hubbard's own >mold. Their contests for new writers and soon-to-be published >magazine are brutal attacks on the currently weakened SF >mainstream, and an attempt to re-legitimize Hubbard as a founding >father of SF. You should boycott Hubbard and Bridge Publications >for the same reason you don't buy Dolphin skin coats, not because >the coat isn't a good product, but because the producers are >committing an immoral act. I saw the book and the initial reaction is : bleah!!! The second reaction : hysterical laughter - 10(!) volumes??? The third reaction : Who cares? I looked through the book. It stinks. The writing style is sophomoric. The storyline fails to keep readers attention ( Keith Laumer, he is not) and the topic is REALLY not that interesting to begin with. I have to confess I DID try to read "Battlefield Earth" ( no I did NOT pay for it) and I couldn't force myself to read past the first 5-6 pages. It just was SO boring and un-attractive! And badly written too. No, Gene Wolfe he is not. I don't completely agree with boycott idea though. I believe we ALL should subscribe to Bridge Publications FREE literature and have them provide us with a steady stream of house-heating material. Let them spend their "hard earned" money. Oleg Kiselev. ...!trwrb!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 13:21:11 est From: ringwld!jmturn@cca-unix Subject: Restoree Was supposed to be bad! (Or at least shlocky!) I believe that McCaffrey stated it was intended as an SF parody of romance novels, or something like that. I've never seen anyone who really took it seriously (or never until now...) McCaffrey's women are anything if wimpy. They are romantic, because she writes romances (which happen to use SF and fantasy settings), but they are also strong. I'd hardly say Lessa 'falls' into F'lar's arms, for example. James ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 01:56 EST From: Andrew Sigel Subject: Re: Flinger Series by Kevin O'Donnell > Does anyone know if Kevin O'Donnell wrote a Flinger novel after > "LAVA"? Yes. The fourth book is due out later this year (December?), and is entitled "CLIFFS". According to O'Donnell, there will be a total of 10 novels in the series. The novels are written in alternation with non-Flinger novels. (Information current as of 2/85; release date and title of next volume as accurate as memory allows.) Andrew Sigel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 12:11 PDT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Re: Caro's belief in James Tiptree, Jr.'s masculinity Greatly abbreviated, the story of Tiptree is as follows: Alice Sheldon has done many interesting things in her life, some of them classified. When she took up sf, she chose to write under the name of Tiptree. The name was taken from, I believe, a brand of English preserves. After a time, she started a second nom de plume, Raccoona Sheldon, under which she marketed her lesser stories (with letters of introduction to publishers from Tiptree). Tiptree started winning awards. Since no one had met him, people became curious as to his identity. Pomposities were published declaring that he had to be a man, because his style was unmistakably masculine. Tiptree was nominated for a Nebula for "The Women that Men Never See." Much of the praise for the story focussed on how well a man could write from a woman's viewpoint. Sheldon thought the situation was unethical, and withdrew her story from consideration without an explanation. Shortly thereafter, parts of the community found her out, and she went public. Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 12:11 PDT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Re: Varley's strong women are lesbians The only lesbian I can remember is Gaby in the Titan trilogy. The other strong women are bisexual (or more, in the case of Rocky Jones). The men are presumably bisexual as well, but we don't see this on stage as often. You should also bear in mind that in most of Varley's work, a sex change is about as easy as getting your hair dyed. Delany plays with this sometimes. It lets you focus on people as people, and play havoc with our remaining prejudices. By the way, John Varley is also a pseudonym. Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 12:11 PDT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Re: Keith F. Lynch's query on Joan Vinge Joan Vinge was married to Vernor Vinge. He was a writer first, and encouraged her career. At some point they amicably divorced. He moved to California and she married Jim Frenkel, then Dell science fiction editor (and publisher of both Vernor and Joan, esp. Joan's _Snow Queen_) and now publisher of Bluejay Books. The marriage was in early 1980, I believe. They have a daughter. Maybe more by now. Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: 27 Oct 85 12:15:55 PST (Sunday) Subject: Re: Price of the Phoenix From: Kurt The other book that comes to mind by Marshak and Culbreath is 'The Prometheus Design'. Interesting book, by the way, dealing with questions of whether self-destruction can ever be avoided by any sentient race. The question is based on the so-called 'Hell's Kitchen' experiments (overcrowding rats), which showed that aberrant behavior may in some way be related to population density. I didn't find it to be anywhere near the caliber of the Phoenix books, but enjoyable nonetheless. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 85 14:47:01 pst From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Subject: book requests "Days of Grass" - a new book by Tanith Lee! Has anyone read this? Does anyone know the name of a book about three motorcycle toughs (two guys and a girl) who are transported back in time by the curse of an old crone - and in early England learn respect for the King's law? I liked it a lot and would like to find it again. Steve ------------------------------ From: oakhill!hunter@caip.rutgers.edu (Hunter Scales) Subject: New Heinlein and Hogan books Date: 28 Oct 85 04:43:20 GMT Has anyone read either the new Heinlein book (???: A comedy of manners) or the new James Hogan book (I forget the title). Are they worth the hard cover price or should I wait for paperback? Thanks. Hunter Scales Motorola Semiconductor Inc. Austin, Texas {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!hunter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 85 10:47:00 EST From: Ron Singleton Subject: mono-sex societie(s) COBLEY A ; Request for opinions, guesses, etc. about mono-sex (female) societies. Interesting idea -- let's each write or speak to our favorite SF author and ask for such a story. Then we can discuss it for five or six months on the digest. But come on, I'd rather discuss the theories on the poli-sci digest! Ron Singleton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 85 12:11 PDT From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Re: query on _Children of the Atom_ Originally published in Astounding as separate novellas in 1948, 1949 and 1950. Then Gnome Press published it in hb. I have the pb original -- Avon, 1953, 35 cents. It is now available in a small press acid-free illustrated edition in hb and pb published in 1978 from Pennyfarthing Press, Box 7745, SF, CA 94120. I am not *sure* that Pennyfarthing is still in business. Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 85 08:58 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Amazing Stories Alright! This is the kind of stuff I like to see on TV! Humor of a strange caliber. Mummy Fu! And I loved those rednecks (We've found a witch, may we burn her?). Correct me if I am wrong, but is this show unique? I love it. Jon ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!) Date: 28 Oct 85 02:39:36 GMT Ok, I'll admit it. I liked the AMAZING STORIES done on 10/27. It was a pretty good sendup of the old Universal horror films. For once the humor was really funny. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: 28 Oct 85 11:55:00 PST From: Subject: Harry Mudd from Lisa > ... a ST pro author with a Harry Mudd novel ... "had great > frustrations with one of the previous ST editors who kept > referring to 'Harvey Mudd'." This really made my morning. For years, after responding to the question, "Where do/did you go to school", I have had to say, "No, the ST character was named Harry Mudd". Greg Goodknight Harvey Mudd College '77 ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 28 Oct 1985 12:11:30-PST From: heffel%shogun.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracey Heffelfinger From: Dtn:354-7431 GSO/F5) Subject: Locus Anyone have current information on how to get a subscription to Locus? Post or mail as you are able and feel appropriate. Tracey Heffelfinger Digital Equipment Corp. Greenville, S.C. UUCP:{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-raven1!heffelfinger ARPA:heffelfinger%raven1.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 85 00:21:43 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Time travel To: wex@MCC.ARPA >From: Alan Wexelblat >It seems to me that time travel *must* imply spatial (not >necessarily space) travel because if you move in time, then the >spot you left from is going to be in a different spatial location >when you stop moving in time. > >This would only be true if velocities were absolute. They aren't. > >Can anyone think of SF in which time travel was explicitly >separated from spatial travel? I can think of several. The authors obviously didn't undertand what they were talking about. To say that the earth was 'there' in 1955 and will be 'over there' in 2015 is meaningless. For instance see Benford's _Timescape_, in which, when sending messages to 1963, scientists in 1997 point their transmitter in the direction the earth was in 1963. This was the only major flaw in an otherwise excellent book. Also see James White's _Tomorrow_Is_Too_Far_, in which it is discovered that traveling a day back in time will put one in the outer solar system because the whole solar system moved in the meanwhile. (Also, the time travelers lose their memory and gradually regain it, both for no reason I could understand.) Both of these books share the implicit notion that it is the center of our galaxy which is stationary. Presumably a time traveler there would always remain in the same place. There is no better reason to regard that as non-moving as anyplace else. ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Oct 85 0904-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #422 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 31 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 422 Today's Topics: Books - Panshin & Simak & Stewart & End of the World Stories, Comics - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Films - Threads, Television - Star Trek & Amazing Stories, Miscellaneous - Getting Published ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Alexei Panshin Date: 29 Oct 85 02:16:59 GMT > three books: _Masque World_, _The Thurb Revolution_, and > _Starwell_, which were supposed to be a kind of > James-Bond-in-space series with hero Anthony Villiers. They were > listed as being by Alexei and Cory Panshin. They weren't just > disappointing; they were poorly written, extremely short (~150pp. > and in larger-than-average print), and in general seemed to be the > work of an amateur pulp SF writer. I don't know who Cory Panshin > is -- son, I suspect -- but I bet he or she wrote 95% of this and > got Alexei to agree to add his name to the cover. Cory Panshin is Alexei Panshin's wife. The Villiers novels originally came out under Alexei's name alone in the late 1960's (the one I glanced at was 1968) for 75 cents each from Ace. The story behind "Alexei and Cory Panshin" (as I understand it) is that Panshin at one point, in a burst of high writing energy and low bank account, sold the rights (first refusal rights, whatever) for his next five novels to a publisher. After he spent the advance, he realized that he'd have to write five novels for nothing (well, it would seem that way) and hit upon the idea of co-authoring his future work with his wife, thereby avoiding having to turn it over to said publisher. (I'm not trying to libel him, merely repeating what I have heard. If it's not true, I'm sure Jayembee will correct me.) I suspect he has adopted a policy of releasing all his work under the double byline as a precaution. While his wife may be co-authoring his current novels, it seems unlikely that she retroactively helped write the Villiers novels. I haven't read the Villiers novels, though I have known people who have enjoyed them immensely. Panshin (singular/plural) has also written: EARTH MAGIC FAREWELL TO YESTERDAYS TOMORROW HEINLEIN IN DIMENSION (non-fiction) SF IN DIMENSION (non-fiction) as well as others than I can't think of off-hand. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 28 Oct 1985 15:36:39-PST From: goun%whoaru.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Way Station Question > Recently I received the SF Book Club edition of _Way Station_, > author's name not remembered. The reason I don't remember is that > my husband idly picked up the book the day it came in and I > haven't seen it without him in tow, since! What is the book > about--can someone review it without spoiling it? _Way_Station_ was written by Clifford Simak. It is my favorite SF novel by far. The story concerns a U.S. Civil War veteran, Enoch Wallace, who is recruited by a galactic civilization to act as the keeper of a way station along its interstellar transportation network. The station is established on Earth, in rural Wisconsin (I think), but its existence is kept secret from the populace. Enoch does not age while inside the station, so he is still a young man when the mid-twentieth century rolls around. Local intelligence agencies are beginning to notice him. Earthly and galactic conflicts enfold him. What this book has, I can only describe as "texture". Simak is a master at describing the feel of rural life and people. He includes just enough scientific justification to keep his story going, and it never intrudes. The main character grows and changes, and the reader can't help but care what happens to him. I can only envy you if you haven't read _Way_Station_ yet. You're in for a rare treat. Roger Goun ARPA: goun%cadlac.DEC@decwrl.ARPA UUCP: {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-cadlac!goun USPS: Digital Equipment Corp., APO-1/B4 100 Minuteman Road; Andover, MA 01810-1098 Tel: (617) 689-1675 ------------------------------ Date: Mon 28 Oct 85 00:25:10-GMT From: Alan Greig Subject: Re: Earth Abides >From: mhs@lanl.ARPA > George Stewart, "Earth abides" > >Humfph. Most of these are 25-30 years old. Stewart will probably >be hard to find. No problem in obtaining it in the U.K. anyway. Its part of the Corgi SF classics library and is available in paperback. Never quite could see why its considered a classic though. I found it very predictable and the writing style a bit juvenile. Still I suppose it was probably the first book to look at civilisation after being wiped out by disease (germ warfare ?). Terry Nation's BBC SF series Survivors developed the idea much better in my opinion. Alan Greig ------------------------------ From: zaphod!flory@caip.rutgers.edu (Trevor Flory) Subject: MITR reading list (long). Date: 24 Oct 85 18:44:22 GMT Well Folks, here is the first issue of the ``Man in the Rubble'' suggested reading list. I have collected the following from email responses to my original request and postings gathered from net.sf-lovers and net.books. I have included the recommendor's comments where it seemed appropriate. BTW, if anyone can provide further information --such as the name of an unknown author-- please feel free (email please). Thank you all for your input. I will gladly accept further recommendations. __Greybeard__ (by): Brian W. Aldiss (pub): Granada __Earthworks__ (by): Brian W. Aldiss (pub): Granada SYNOPSIS: Pollution has brought civilization to its knees. The protagonist travels through enough realms of decay --both geographic and social-- to present a lasting image of a dying world. __Orion Shall Rise__ (by): Poul Anderson __Nightfall__ (by): Isaac Asimov SYNOPSIS: ``A classic short story about a world orbitting multiple suns, forever in daylight, where civilization crumbles each epoch in which all of the planet's suns are eclipsed simultaneously.'' Ray Lubinsky (rwl@uvacs.UUCP). -can be found in the anthology of the same name. __Catastrophes__ (by): editors: Martin Greenberg, Charles Waugh and Isaac Asimov SYNOPSIS: ``... the best collection of end of the whatever stories ....'' Jon (pugh@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU). __By the Waters of Babylon__ (by): S. Vincent Binet SYNOPSIS: short story (source unknown). __A Boy and His Dog__ (by): Harlan Ellison SYNOPSIS: Short story to be found in the anthology entitled _The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World_. __I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream__ (by): Harlan Ellison SYNOPSIS: Short story to be found in the anthology of the same name. __The White Plague(?)__ (by): Frank Herbert __Riddly Walker__ (by): Russel Hoban SYNOPSIS: Apparently it takes a little effort to get past the language. Enjoyable thereafter. __The Stand__ (by): Stephen King (date): ca. 1978. __Hiero's Journey__ (by): Sterling Lanier SYNOPSIS: ``Lots of strange critters.'' __Notes of a Survivor__ (by): Doris Lessing SYNOPSIS: Warning: Lessing is rather pessimistic. __God's Grace__ (by): Bernard Malamud SYNOPSIS: ``The last primates on Earth are a Jew and his chimp.'' __Dreamsnake__ (by): Vonda McIntyre SYNOPSIS: ``... a very well developed picture of the society of the post-holocaust world.'' Chuck Koelbel (chk@mordred). __A Canticle for Leibowitz__ (by): Walter J. Miller Jr. SYNOPSIS: Three parts, three phases of life after a holocaust. Some consider this to be the classic ``MITR'' novel. __A World Out Of Time__ (by): Larry Niven SYNOPSIS: ``Thrown three million years into the future by a relativistic space voyage, the hero returns to Earth to find the survivors of humanity living among the ruins.'' Ray Lubinsky (rwl@uvacs.UUCP). __The Castle Keeps__ (by): Andrew Offutt SYNOPSIS: Non-Nuclear holocaust. __Davy__ (by): Edgar Pangborn __Alas Babylon__ (by): Frank Pat __Lucifer's Hammer__ (by): Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle SYNOPSIS: Follows the lives of various characters before and after a meteor/asteroid strikes the Earth and effectively ends civilization. __Dinner at Deviant's Palace__ (by): Tim Powers __The Wild Shore__ (by): Kim Stanley Robinson __The Empire of the East__ (by): Fred Saberhagen SYNOPSIS: ``Good book, but we're starting to stretch the genre quite a bit here.'' Tom Phillips (trantor!phillips) __On The Beach__ (by): Nevil Shute SYNOPSIS: ``This was one of the first classics of the after the destruction type. It deals with the situation as encountered by an American submarine on duty at the start of the War. Both the movie and the book are excellent.'' Bob Guernsay (bob@scgvaxd.UUCP). __Nightwings__ (by): Robert Silverberg SYNOPSIS: ``Way after the end, caused by invasion of aliens.'' __Tom O'Bedlam__ (by): Robert Silverberg SYNOPSIS: ``Mysticism and mutation.'' __Earth Abides__ (by): George R. Stewart SYNOPSIS: ``... a great man-in-the-rubble story. The catastrophe is non-nuclear. The post-catastrophe re-building is insightful and interesting.'' Peter Benson (benson@dcdwest.UUCP) __In the Drift__ (by): Michael Swanwick __The Peace War__ (by): Vernor(?) Vinge SYNOPSIS: ``... not exactly a 'man in the rubble' kind of story, but still very good in terms of survival of the human spirit.'' __Cat's Cradle__ (by): Kurt Vonnegut SYNOPSIS: ``A wry, witty end-of-the-world yarn which introduces my favorite substance, Ice-nine.'' Brent Slocum (Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA). __Galapagos__ (by): Kurt Vonnegut (date): still in hardback. __Where Late the Sweet Bird Sang__ (by): Kate Wilhelm __The Day of the Triffids__ (by): John Wyndham __This Immortal__ (by): Roger Zelazny SYNOPSIS: Setting: long enough after The Fall that Man has regained ``a morality''. __Malevil__ (by): unknown __Radix__ (by): unknown (date): recent paperback. SYNOPSIS: ``Perhaps a classic.'' __Triumph__ (by): unknown __War Day__ (by): authors unknown PS: I respectfully acknowledge the MITR reading list posted by mcb@styx. However, in recognition of all those who emailed me their suggestions and critiques I feel compelled to post this list if only out of respect for their efforts. Trevor K. Flory UUCP: ...!ihnp4{!alberta}!sask!zaphod!flory Develcon Electronics Ltd. Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, CANADA ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Oct 85 04:56:04-EST From: "Thomas Young Galloway" Subject: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles As has been mentioned, TMNT started as a parody of Daredevil/Frank Miller's Ronin/Marvel Mutants. In a recent Eclipse Comics flyer, they advertise the upcoming shipping of... Adolescent Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters. No, I'm not kidding. ------------------------------ Date: Sun 27 Oct 85 23:53:45-GMT From: Alan Greig Subject: Re: Threads Yes THREADS is a British production (BBC to be precise) although its only about a year old (if that), not two or three. Its centred around the UK city Shefield and differs from films such as "The Day After" in that it follows life through for several years after the holocaust. It's certainly available in the UK on VHS/Beta but in PAL colour format. Whether you can get it in NTSC colour is a question for the BBC. I suggest anyone who wants to know writes to the BBC video dept in London. That address should be enough to reach them. The film is normally classed along with the other BBC production, "The War Game" which was shot in black and white in the 60's but not shown until 1984 because it was considered to give a too horific depiction of Nuclear War. Maybe they should have altered the laws of Physics for the film. E=m/c^2 ? Alan Greig ------------------------------ Subject: re: st question Date: 28 Oct 85 15:45:50 PST (Mon) From: Dave Godwin I believe I remeber the phrase about 'taking chances' that you are refering to . In the episode 'Tomorrow is Yesterday' ( I think ), the plot runs into three beachball shaped containers containing alien beings. They've been in those things for hundreds of thousands of years, ever since their race blew themselves out in a big nasty war. Their names are Sargon, Thelesa and a guy whose name I can't recall, so we'll call him Fred. The aliens need to temporarily take over the bodies of, in order of above, Kirk, a scientist played by Diana Muldaur, and Spock. The do this in order to build themselves android bodies they can move themselves into and live in. When the rest of the cast start making noises about how dangerous this whole plot complication will probably be, Kirk makes this nifty speach about how the risk is worth while, that "..risk, gentlemen ? Risk is what this starship's all about. That's why we're aboard her !", with the usual funky background Kirk music. It was kinda a fun episode. The bloopers from this one are hilarious. Dave ------------------------------ From: petrus!karn@caip.rutgers.edu (Phil R. Karn) Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!) Date: 28 Oct 85 08:49:48 GMT > Ok, I'll admit it. I liked the AMAZING STORIES done on 10/27. Me too. It was a good night for NBC; I also liked the Hitchcock episode that followed. You *knew* that she was going to get buried alive, but the *reason* was totally unexpected. I had assumed that the old man would find out he'd been tricked (or that he could really see all along) and would simply leave her there. Phil ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling) Subject: Getting published Date: 28 Oct 85 20:54:36 GMT I have this problem. I want desperately to be published as a Science Fiction Writer. The only thing is, my (formal) training is as an Engineer, and I don't know much about Real Life when it comes to selling the Written Word. Okay, enough of that. I've got the old IASFM guide to writing a proper manuscript, plus I've got a girlfriend who has done proofreading on printer's galleys. If I write anything that might be printable, the MS won't be a problem. The booklet Amazing is putting out on writing SF strikes me as a tract on how to write stuff that George Scithers might like. I've not actually read it, so I don't know. Does anyone out there publish in any of the digests? Steven Brust is off the net, if only temporarily, or I'd write him directly. I've written some things that I think are saleable, and I've got an MS sitting at the offices of Fantasy and Science Fiction right now, and response to this or not, I'm going to try to get published. (Sorry for the Defensive Defiance.) If anyone out there could/would reply to this, by e-mail or otherwise, I'd appreciate it. (Has anyone noticed that, once one has assigned a story to the loving care of the US Postal System, one becomes a nervous wreck? Not to mention all the worries over what those mean nasty editors are going to *DO* to the poor thing. Or even the pre-response depression over the aniticipated rejection slip. Why does anyone do it?) Ah, the price of fame. Mark! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Oct 85 0946-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #423 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 31 Oct 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 423 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein (2 msgs) & Hogan & Lull & McCaffrey & Zelazny (3 msgs) & Mono Sex Societies (4 msgs) & Book Request Answered & End of the World Stories, Television - Robotech ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ukma!david@caip.rutgers.edu (David Herron, NPR Lover) Subject: The Cat who Walks Through Walls Date: 27 Oct 85 20:01:45 GMT A new book by RA Heinlein! This is one of those books you can't say anything about or you would totally RUIN it for the reader. Suffice to say that it is similar to a number of his other works (Glory Road, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, The Number of the Beast (though better organized) and so forth). It is set about 100 years AFTER the revolution in Moon. The only thing I'll say further is that it will only be interesting to people who have read a few of his books and understand the Furture History and so forth. It would be telling, though, to say more of why. David Herron, cbosgd!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 29 Oct 85 05:02:03-EST From: "Thomas Young Galloway" Subject: Heinlein:The Cat Who Walked Through Walls There'll be some minor spoilers coming up. Warnings will be posted. As much as I like Heinlein, I have to recommend that you don't buy this one, at least in hardcover. While it starts off well, it tends to be pretty disconnected. To put it bluntly, the book doesn't really go anywhere. Minor Spoiler: The cat doesn't appear until about page 270 and is a *very* minor character. Semi-major spoiler: Is there really an ending to this book? Or does it just stop? Is there any real point to the book? Major Spoiler: It's a sequel to Number of the Beast. tyg p.s. Has anyone else spotted the error in the cover illustration? ------------------------------ Subject: Lot's of stuff Date: 29 Oct 85 16:16:53 PST (Tue) From: Dave Godwin James Hogan's new novel, Proteus Project, is his best piece of work to date, ranking above Inherit the Stars, and hanging in with Glass Slippers For a Princess. In pretty much all of Hogan's previous jobs, there have been miscellaneous problems with characters being a little flat, or plots being a little predictable, just minor stuff. None of these problems here. Plot moves very well, characters all work, and the only real complaint I have is that the science wasn't explained all to well. ( No real reason it should have been though; story was seen from viewpoint of non-scientists for the most part. ) Several of the characters in the book are/were actual people, like Sir Winston Churchill, Edward Teller, Albert Einstein, Enrico Fermi, and, performing as a young chemistry major from Columbia, one Isaac Asimov. Dave ------------------------------ From: lzwi!psc@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul S. R. Chisholm) Subject: Need to contact Sharon Lull Date: 28 Oct 85 16:54:39 GMT I'm trying to send a letter to Sharon Lull, who wrote a story, "I Demand the Stars" (I think that's the name) for GALILEO. So far as I know, she hasn't published any novels, she isn't in the SFWA directory (a friend checked for me), and I'm not even sure that "Lull" isn't a pseudonym. I don't even know if GALILEO is still around. This is more than just a fan letter, so if anyone can help track her down, I'd appreciate it. Send mail to me at ihnp4!lznv!psc (but not ihnp4!lzwi!psc). Paul S. R. Chisholm {pegasus,vax135}!lzwi!psc {mtgzz,ihnp4}!lznv!psc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 85 09:23 PST From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey's female characters Poor Anne ... To L S Chabot: look at the copyrights on Dragonquest and Restoree. They're only a few years apart. The strength of Lessa should have been a clue that something was amiss with Restoree. She wrote Restoree with tongue in cheek, as a parody of that kind of book. To her continuing chagrin, first the editors at Ballantine and now legions of readers take the book as a straight adventure story. The cover blurbs are largely responsible I think. And now you're accusing her of the very attitudes she was lambasting in the book.... Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: 29 Oct 1985 09:10:41-EST (Tuesday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Zelazny--Lord of Light The first time I read LoL, about 7-8 years ago, I found it ok, but didn't particularly like the ending. Since then, I've probably read it about a dozen times, and found it better each time. Nor would I change the ending, since it is totally appropriate for the mood of the story as a whole. ------------------------------ To: cracraft@isi-vaxa.arpa Subject: Re: Lord of Light Date: 29 Oct 85 07:43:30 PST (Tue) From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa I *love* the book, but there is one thing I would change: the annoyingly cryptic inside-out time-line. It's like, 51 pages of the present, 151 pages of flashback, and then back to the present for the final 42 pages. The first time I read it, I didn't really understand what was going on until I had finished the book. Jef ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev x268) Subject: Re: Amber Date: 28 Oct 85 22:20:04 GMT If I recall correctly neighbouring Shadows of Amber ( the once next to it could trade with Amber, as any one of Amber blood could cross into a Shadow close to his own(?) Oleg Kiselev. ...!trwrb!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ Subject: Parthenogenesis Date: 29 Oct 85 20:45:29 EST (Tue) From: Aimee Yermish Works ok with frogs (poke an egg with a platinum needle and it thinks it's been fertilized. Frogs were never known for their intelligence). However, you have to remember that an egg cell only has half the number of chromosomes as a normal somatic cell. Among other things, this would mean that all recessive mutations would be expressed. A good proportion of those are lethal. The sex of survivors is unclear. One Y chromosome guarantees maleness, but I believe that two X chromosomes are needed to produce a female. Also, what would happen when the haploid creature tried to produce more egg cells? Meiosis requires the existence of homologous chromosomes. The problem is that haploid individuals just don't occur in humans. Now yes, this is sf, but I just find the idea a little too far over towards the side of the unreasonable. If the author wanted to write a story about a planet inhabited entirely by female frogs with platinum needles. . . Aimee ------------------------------ Return-path: From: chabot@miles.DEC Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 28 Oct 85 23:32:08 GMT > What would a society be like if all repoduction (or most ) > was done this way since the society would consist entirley of > females.What would be the role of males (if any existed),would > they be kept as pets? revired?, or treated as equals (they would > certainly have 'abnormal' sexual disires as far as the rest of > society was concerned, unless you use two male genes and find a > kindly womb donor.) > Any one know of any stories based on this? > Any ideas on the fesability, society, role of men. > > andy. A.COBLEY%DUNDEE@UCL.CS This isn't too new an idea, and yes, there are stories about it. Check out The Female Man by Joanna Russ. Also, "Houston, Houston, ..." (erp, here I am again, typing without my library with toe's reach) by James Tiptree, Jr who we know is really Dr. A. Sheldon, although this one may not give you a good idea about what the society is like. ------------------------------ From: wuphys!mff@caip.rutgers.edu (Swamp Thing) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 30 Oct 85 00:46:19 GMT A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.ARPA writes: > For any biologist out there, whats the feasability >of taking genes from two females and combining them together, >replanting them in a ovum and so get birth from the result. > > Any one know of any stories based on this? I know I have read a short story like this. Some colony got hit by a plague which killed all of the men. The women figured out a way to fertilize each other. A long time later, a "rescue team" shows up, consisting of some men. They knew that there were only women left, and expected to be jumped all over by the women. They showed up making snide remarks about how the women must be really lonely, etc. But the women had no idea what they were talking about. Unfortunately, I don't remenber who wrote it or what the title was, but it might have been in one of the Dangerous Visions books. Mark F. Flynn Department of Physics Washington University St. Louis, MO 63130 ihnp4!wuphys!mff ------------------------------ Date: Wed 30 Oct 85 01:21:35-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Re: monosexual societies.... It hasn't been done yet, to the best of my knowledge. There is no good reason why it shouldn't work. It would be expensive, and requires skilled personnel and sophisticated equipment (while the traditional alternative requires only unskilled labor). There is a facet to this which a non-biologist might miss. One inherits from one's mother not only the DNA encoded information in the nuclear genes, but also a load of mitochondria, which have their own DNA and genetic information. If the procedure was performed by fusing two ova (as seems the most likely possibility), then the new cell would have mitochondria from both parents. I have no idea how this would effect the cell, and the person that might develop as a result. If only the nucleus of one ova was fused with another, whole ova, this problem could be avoided. There are no people with YY chromosomes. Your normal male is XY, a normal female is XX. There are rare cases of individuals with XYY, but this is very much an abnormality. > What would a society be like if all reproduction (or most ) was > done this way...? That's a VERY interesting question. I would tend to think that monosexual species are at some kind of reproductive disadvantage versus polysexual species, because most of the large, complex animals we see today are polysexual. One advantage that polysexual species may have over monosexual ones is specialization. For all that Mother Nature may offend some feminists, human females are physically optimized for bearing and caring for children while men are not (I am not saying men are optimized for anything). In humans, female sexual characteristics are much more impeding then the male's (there is a reason female Olympic athletes tend to look androgynous). Of course, in our modern, technological society, these physical differences are largely irrelevant. As we further mechanize the nature of work, sex differences become less important. So: (1) would an all-female society evolve? and (2) would such a society be stable? To answer the second question first, if reproduction is predicated on the existence of sophisticated medical technology, I do not think the society would be stable. A species which can not reproduce without artificial aid is extraordinarily fragile, as even a brief failure of civilisation would doom it. ('Lets start a baby, Meg.' "We cant Jean, we're out of batteries."). Also, in a given area, small elites could easily control reproduction. As to the first question, if the only advance were affordable female-female reproduction, it does seem likely that an all female society might slowly take over. However, I think something stranger is likely to happen. {enter blue-sky mode} Technological advances do not occur in a vacuum. Around any breakthrough there are a swarm of related advances, and the interactions of these is impossible to predict. I would suggest that the same science which may one day give us female-female reproduction is moving us towards a situation in which sex becomes a moot point, particularly for reproduction. We are slowly but steadily cracking the code of the human genome. It is not too wild a speculation to suggest that within the next century we will be able to select the genes of our offspring as easily as we assemble the components of a computer system today. Want your child to be beautiful? You can. Want a guarantee against cancer? You can get it. Want intelligence? Musical talent? Good teeth? Longevity? No pimples? Soon these will be selectable at will in ones offspring. Once this technology is in place (and I expect to live to see at least some of it), sex becomes an irrelevancy. Ones' child could be truly ONEs' child. Male and female characteristics become optional extras (though doubtless almost a 'standard option', at least at first). But why should genders be limited to two? I expect talented designer geneticists (they make designer genes) would come up with viable ideas for totally new sexes, opening the door to hitherto unknown classes of love and pleasure. If one could design one's heirs as easily as one designs a house, what would they be like? The question of gender becomes a small factor in a much larger universe of choice. {exit blue-sky mode} Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa ------------------------------ Subject: Lot's of stuff Date: 29 Oct 85 16:16:53 PST (Tue) From: Dave Godwin The story about the "man-who-is-captured-by-the-aliens-with- the-nifty-lie-detector-machine-that-causes-pain-when-the-truth-is- not-told-so he-tells-the-truth-and-beats-'em" story is by Randall Garret, of Lord Darcy fame. The story can be most recently found in the 'Best of Randall Garret' collection. Sorry, but I can't quite recall the name, and I don't want to lie to you. ( Yo, JMB ! ) This is actually a very nice collection. Garret does short stories much better than he does novels. I recommend you all go find a copy. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 85 13:54 EDT From: RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: RE:Man-in-the-Rubble I find the many contributions to this topic lacking to some extent. Since I am new to the net, I hope no one takes the above comment personally. Some very interesting trilogies(?) exist on the subject of life after....... One such series is by Saberhagen(of BESERKER fame) called (each in sequence) The First, The Second and The Third Book of Swords. The stories range over 2(?) millenia and each book is related through the use of the swords. As a prolific scifi reader I highly recommend it. Another series is "The Erthrying Cycle" (approx.) by Wayland Drew this is about the carrying out of an ancient master plan to return humanity to its former glory after WW?. There are a number of other that come to mind without title or author. -> Anthology of s.s./ one author/ titled/ The Last Man on Earth aaron w. ------------------------------ From: lmef!susan@caip.rutgers.edu (susan) Subject: Robotech Date: 25 Oct 85 08:40:00 GMT Salutations! Has anyone ever heard of Robotech? It just recently started playing here in the afternoons, and.... I'm hooked. Some questions I have: 1. Is it new 2. Does it come in comic-book form (if so, where can I get it?) 3. Does anyone watch it beside me...has anyone HEARD of it besides me? I would love to hear from anyone having ANY info on this animated sf series. A lonely Micronian & Centratti fan....(sp may be wrong) *susan* ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Nov 85 0934-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #424 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 424 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Garrett & Hodgell & Hogan & Mono Sex Societies (3 msgs), Films - Lifeforce, Television - Star Trek & Archetypal TV & Amazing Stories, Miscellaneous - Time Travel & Pseudonyms (5 msgs) & SFLovers and Microfiche & Apricon VII at Columbia. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Later Asimov Date: 28 Oct 85 17:30:13 GMT JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes: >I believe, that like any writer, Asimov is entitled to hot and cold >spells. > > [Damning of _Foundations Edge_ with faint praise] > >I like the Robots of Dawn however....really liked it. > >To be fair to Isaac in his declining years, I think that it should >be noted that some of his 'Golden years' stuff were duds or near >duds. Take the 'Stars Like Dust' for example, or the 'God's >Themselves' (yes I know it was later, but really, if you think sex >with robots is wierd) . Yes, I would put Foundations Edge well >ahead of each. You've got to be kidding. (You're not? Oh, well...) _The God's Themselves_ is easily the best novel Asimov has written. (In my opinion, of course.) Actually, I don't think Asimov has so much fallen off lately, as failed to keep up. What was fresh and innovative in the 50's is dry and stale in the 80's. I don't agree with those who disparage Asimov's characterization. I think a lot of the believability of characters depends on what characters you believe in. Personally, I find Asimov's characters more real and believable than, for example, the characters in _Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand_ (which I think is a very good book, by the way). The problem is that he doesn't have any new *ideas*. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:36 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: The Best Policy Concerning Terry Grevstad's request for information: "The Best Policy" is by Randall Garrett. It was originally published under the pen name "David Gordon" in the July 1957 issue of Astonishing Science Fiction. It was most recently (I think) republished in January 1982, in "The Best of Randall Garrett" (Timescape / Pocket Books, ISBN 0-671-83574-2). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1985 11:28 EST From: Dean Sutherland Subject: Steve Rabin on "Godstalk" No "sequel warnings" can be blamed strictly on the publisher/editor: it is NOT the author's fault. I do believe, however, that there should have been a sequel warning included. Now for your other comments: @begin The ONLY plot element "Godstalk" shares with "Breed to Come" is one (1) cat. In fact the cat in GS is just a cat (which happens to talk), while the cats in BTC were the intelligent mutated descendants of today's house cats. NOT a very close match! GS is NOT 'a poor womans version of Norton's "Breed to Come"' it is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT kind of book with ONLY ONE plot element (out of many) in common!!!! The plot may be convoluted (OK, "crazed"), but it has quite a few original ideas which are VERY well presented. Over all, I would recommend the book highly to anyone who does not hate fantasy. @end Dean F. Sutherland ------------------------------ Subject: Hogan's latest (The Proteus Operation) From: MICHAEL%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Michael Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 12:15:45 EST I've read it and I enjoyed it very much. I think that it is worth the price of the hardcover. The style is different than Hogan's usual, but very good nonetheless. He spends much less time on Hard Science and more on character development. He also did some VERY GOOD historical research on the period he is writing about and has developed a very good feel for what made things tick during that period. Definitely worth reading, if only for an intriguing "what if" concerning the course and politics of WW II. The characters are believable and human, I thought, which some seem to think doesn't happen enough in Hogan's books. No spoiler warning on this since you can get as much information as I have given you about the storyline (and more) from the jacket blurbs. Mike Johnson ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 29 Oct 85 23:55:00 GMT THe only story I know of which deals intelligibly with a society based on fusion of ova is "When it Changed" by Joanna Russ. A wonderful story it is, too. (SPOILER WARNING) James Tiptree's "Houston, Houston, do you Read" postulates a single-sex society based on cloning. Very interestingly worked out; the people in the society are all busily exploring the possibilities of their genome. For example, "Lucy's" talk a lot (I think it's Lucys). Personally I think such a society is stuck in a genetic dead end, but the ideas are fascinating and the story itself is very good. Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work) (607)-272-7750 (home) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 15:28:58 EST From: Ron Singleton Subject: mono-sex societies I apologize! I'm sorry! Because I could not remember ever having read such a story, I (shortsightedly) assumed there were none. This message is being sent prior to seeing any of the flames that are sure to follow my posting. I'll try to keep my flying fingers in check in the future (I promise). Ron S. ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 30 Oct 1985 12:21:54-PST From: heffel%shogun.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracey Heffelfinger From: Dtn:354-7431 GSO/F5) Subject: single sex societies Years ago I read "Virgin Planet" by Poul Anderson(I believe). It featured an all female society that perpetuated itself by Parthenogenisis. I don't remember much about it because it's been years since I read it. Anybody else notice that all the examples given so far have been all female societies?? Of course as soon as I typed that, I thought of an all male example. In Andre Norton's Witch World series there was a race of men (whose name involved hawks somehow) that raided villages for women. These women were kept until they had a child. If the child were female, both were allowed to go back home. If the child were male, She was kept for 4 years to raise the boy. At the end of 4 years, the mother went home and the son stayed with the men. Tracey Heffelfinger Digital Equipment Corp. Greenville, S.C. UUCP:{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-raven1!heffelfinger ARPA:heffelfinger%raven1.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468) Subject: A Real Lemon. LIFEFARCE :-) Date: 29 Oct 85 19:07:15 GMT Has anyone seen that 'sci-fi' film LIFEFORCE ? You know, 'Beyond space they found something fairly horrible (but it couldn't act)'. It is so bad it is almost good. What can be said about it? Well for a start, Peter Firth obviously went to a carpentry school and not an acting school :-) . Deathless prose like: "This is a D- notice situation" after some reporter has just, rather stupidly, asked him whether he's a member of the SAS. Perhaps he did voiceovers for the Cybermen. Poor old Frank Finlay should have known better. Mind you, though, he did get the best line in the entire film. He's just told old Woodentop (Peter Firth) how he killed one of the vampires, waffled on about life after death, ("But how do you know?") then he looks at Peter Firth, smiles quizzically, and says "Here I go...!" before expiring with a wonderful special effect borrowed especially from Ghostbusters. Unfortunately, the rest of the film is not as intentionally funny as this. The moment that looms large in my mind is nearer to the start of the film. You know in those 'psychological thriller' films where the innocent victim is working away at his desk, when we see the shadow of the maniac with the knife on the wall. Well, Lifeforce provided a new twist on this scene. As the security guard (in this case) sits quietly at his desk, bent over some work,the shadow of an enormous t*t appears and moves menacingly towards him. Classic. Most of the film was actually as bad as this, being an excuse for Mathilda May to wander around naked for three-quarters of the film. As witnessed by:R.Ramsay Ashvin Patel Anthony Flynn Carlos Sarno Andy Thornton. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 08:19 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Star Trek Quote Question Cc: Gern The full quote is: "Gentlemen, we all have to take a chance, especially if one is all we have" and is from "Tommorrow is Yesterday" just after Scotty has explained to Kirk the dangers of trying to use the sun's gravity to create a time warp and go back to their own time. (This info confirmed by video tape.) Lisa Wahl Star Trek Welcommittee ------------------------------ From: iddic!dorettas@caip.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock) Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes Date: 29 Oct 85 00:07:16 GMT > Isn't it funny how the same old themes keep rearing their > heads (ugly or otherwise) in popular sf tv shows. It occured to me > that one could probably "distil" the most typical of these to form > a resulting "gestalt" episode from the essence. > Take, for example, the following gestalt "Star Trek": Or how about this formula, from the same series: :00 opening credits :02 setting described :04 problem-of-the-week portrayed :20 initial solution well under way :31 Kirk (sometimes Spock or McCoy or Scotty) discovers the *REAL* nature of the problem, which is impossible to solve :40 Principal (usually Kirk or Spock) proposes radical solution :47 Radical solution attempted...with only seconds to spare :55 Solution works perfectly; all counters reset to normal :58 Witticism by principal (usually Kirk) :59 closing credits This formula works unbelievably well, within a few minutes either way. It works best with Star Trek, though similar ones (like the Brady Bunch "who has a developmental problem that we can solve in a half-hour" disease) can easily be recognized. Mike Sellers <-- note the name difference from above ------------------------------ From: potomac!jsl@caip.rutgers.edu (John Labovitz) Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!) Date: 30 Oct 85 04:52:25 GMT > > Ok, I'll admit it. I liked the AMAZING STORIES done on 10/27. Did anyone realize that the first redneck (the guy watching TV) was Miller from the film `Repo Man'? And that the `tough guy' redneck was one of the Replicants from `Blade Runner'? Does anyone know their real names, and what else they've done? Did anyone who has seen `Repo Man' and `Blade Runner' notice that the two characters acted very similarly to their respective characters in the Amazing Stories show? I almost expected the first guy to say `You got it...time machines!' and the other guy to say `Ever had an itch you can't scratch?' (for the unknowing, some of the best lines of each movie). John Labovitz ..!{rlgvax,seismo}!bdmrrr!potomac!jsl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:41:20 cst From: Alan Wexelblat Subject: Time travel, take 2 Thanks to those who replied to my earlier posting on time-travel. One thing still puzzles me though: Is it the case that the center of mass of the universe doesn't move? Is it (theoretically) possible to calculate our position/velocity w.r.t. this non-moving point? People seem to talk about our universe as expanding, but expanding away from what? Alan Wexelblat WEX@MCC.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:35:14 cst From: Alan Wexelblat Subject: Authors & Pseudonyms If memory serves, about 2 years ago (summer of '83?) someone published in SF-Lovers a list of authors and known pseudonyms. Does anyone still have this list? Can someone at Rutgers check the archives and see if the list is there? Thanks! Alan Wexelblat WEX@MCC.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:09 PST From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Andre/Alice Norton Andre/Alice Norton also wrote with Grace Allen under the name of Allen Weston. (see _The Index of Science Fiction Magazines 1951-1965_, by Norm Metcalf) Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:11 PST From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Re: John Norman =? Norma Johnson =? John Lange Where did "Norma Johnson" come from? Every source I've ever seen says that John Norman is a pseudonym for Dr. John F. Lange, Jr. Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:15 PST From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Re: Piers Anthony =? Toni Pearce And where did "Toni Pearce from Boise, Idaho" come from? See for instance Charles Platt's _Dream Makers Volume II: The Uncommon Men & Women Who Write Science Fiction_, pp 103-111. The Piers Anthony that he interviews has a greying beard and a wife. Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 85 10:19 PST From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: John Herbert Varley Well, I've never said that bibliography was my business. I knew he was called "Herb" by his friends, and I knew he had written under the name of "Herb Boehm", and I've seen articles that claimed that "Herb Boehm" was his real name, but after Boyajian's rebuttal I found an intro that Terry Carr wrote to a story of Varley's that calls him John Herbert Varley, and who would know better than Terry? This strengthens my point about not trusting what you read in sf-lovers, even when it's from a seemingly reliable source. :-) Lubkin ------------------------------ Date: 30 Oct 1985 13:30:13 PST Subject: SFLovers and Microfiche?? From: Alan R. Katz Is there anyone out there who has the resources and might be persuaded to put all of the SFLovers Archives on Microfiche?? There are probably many people out there (me included) that would be willing to pay a share of the costs. Recently all of the PCNet stuff was put on Microfiche, I believe the cost was on the order of a few dollars a fiche. I currently have ALL of the archives printed out from the lineprinter (about 4 ft stack of printout) and considering the historic importance of the list (the first real distributed mailing list of its kind, and probably the largest), I think it would be nice to have it all in a manageable size. Anyone out there with a COM device?? Alan ------------------------------ Date: Wed 30 Oct 85 22:48:42-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Apricon VII at Columbia. The Barnard-Columbia Science Fiction Society presents A P R I C O N V I I Guest of Honor: CHRISTOPHER STASHEFF, author of \The Warlock in Spite of Himself/ also Films: Bladerunner, The Mouse that Roared, Metropolis. Panels, speakers, art show, Japanese animation, filk-singing, huckster's room, trivia contest, Dungeons and Dragons Tournament. Time: Noon till Midnight, November 9 1985. Place: Ferris Booth Hall, Columbia University (115th St & Broadway), New York City ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Nov 85 0953-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #425 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 425 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Ford & Heinlein & Mono Sex Societies, Television - Captain Harlock & Robotech (3 msgs), Miscellaneous - Space Is Clean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ho95e!ran@caip.rutgers.edu (RANeinast) Subject: Robots and Empire (SPOILER at end) Date: 29 Oct 85 14:07:40 GMT Well, my copy arrived yesterday from the Science Fiction Book Club. I think "Robots and Empire" matches "Foundation". It had me turning those pages, wanting to find out what was going to happen next. Furthermore, it had in it (at least 4 times) those occurrences where you sit back and think, "I never thought of that before". Then you think of some of the implications. Much of the novel deals with the Zeroth Law of Robotics (the book is worth its price on this alone, and how robots react to it). What, you never heard of the Zeroth Law? Every science with three laws has a zeroth law, which always is discovered later, but which everyone agrees is of prime importance and certainly cannot be relegated to number four. This is not full of the constant bickering that occurred in "Foundation's Edge", and has a much stronger sense of purpose than "The Robots of Dawn". I also think it is doing a great job of starting to tie together the Robots and the Foundation series. It hangs together nicely, and is well motivated. This is definitely one of the best Asimov has written in a long time. For all you Davis Tuckers out there, some writers write like a beautiful, finely-inlaid, cobblestone road: You admire the road, and how well it was put together, and how cleverly gems have been inserted to achieve just the right effect. Other writers are just gravel roads, but they lead you through spectacular forests, and breathtaking mountains, and sheer canyons. Asimov is of the latter. *******SPOILER********* One question in the book is, "Where did the Solarians go?" It sure looks to me like Asimov has set this up so that the Solarians become Gaea in "Foundation's Edge". I am also wondering how long R. Daneel Olivaw will stick around. He will certainly help with the abandonment of Earth (and his newly acquired telepathy will be important there), but I would not be surprised to find him still there in the sequel to "Foundation's Edge", when they all finally find Earth. After all, he'll only be about 20,000 years old, and I don't see how Earth would be totally abandoned. The radioactivity, while hazardous, cannot be fatal. I would expect greatly increased mutation rates, though. Robert Neinast (ihnp4!ho95b!ran) AT&T-Bell Labs ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling) Subject: Re: Star Trek novels (Really John M. Ford) Date: 30 Oct 85 19:15:58 GMT > There is at least one star trek novel which doesn't follow the > formula, _Final_Reflection_ by, I believe,John Ford. It's about a > Klingon starship commander and takes place long before anything in > the series. It's pretty good reading and has some nice ideas > about everyone's favorite villains. > Todd Which makes me think to ask, has Mr. Ford published any Alternities Corporation stories since "Slowly By, Lorena" in IASFM some time (years) ago? They were the best things the magazine published under Scithers, other than maybe the "Adventures in Unhistory" by I believe Algis Budrys. Have the Alternities stories been anthologised? Where? Mark! ------------------------------ From: vice!keithl@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith Lofstrom) Subject: New Heinlein Novel !!! Date: 28 Oct 85 17:06:46 GMT Hi, Folks. Been away for a while... Robert A. Heinlein "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" Putnam, ISBN 0-399-13103-5 For those of you who find Heinlein politically incorrect, skip this posting. For the rest of you: WOW. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" WAS my favorite Heinlein. Before this book. Heinlein starts out in the "Free Luna" universe, about 150 years later - and goes from there. This is peppered with the usual bon mots, in jokes, heroic heros (and more heroic heroines), chivalry, technology, tanstaafl, and joie de vivre (including both ends - warning for the prudish). Unlike some recent Heinleins, this one has a pretty strong plot and some hints of subplot, and an ending like a brick wall. Let your project schedules slip a day. Buy it and read it. I found it at Powells in Portland; it should reach the hinterlands soon. Keith Lofstrom MS 59-316, Tektronix, PO 500, Beaverton OR 97077 (503)-627-4052 uucp: {ucbvax,decvax,chico,pur-ee,cbosg,ihnss} !tektronix!vice!keithl CSnet: keithl@tek ARPAnet:keithl.tek@rand-relay ------------------------------ From: moncol!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Ruschmeyer) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 30 Oct 85 22:22:37 GMT A.Cobley%dundee.ac.uk@ucl-cs.ARPA writes: > For any biologist out there, whats the feasability of >taking genes from two females and combining them together, replanting >them in a ovum and so get birth from the result. > > Any one know of any stories based on this? Not exactly, but... One of the secretaries here was talking about a book she read called MR. ADAM. It was apparently written in the late 40's and concerned a nuclear accident which left the male population of the earth sterile, except for one man. As she explained it, the book concerned the government's efforts at repopulation via this one man. BTW, she said the book was hilarious. (Anyone with a pointer to finding a copy?) Name: John Ruschmeyer US Mail: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764 Phone: (201) 571-3451 *** NEW NUMBER *** UUCP: ...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john ...!princeton!moncol!john ...!pesnta!moncol!john ------------------------------ From: cc-30@ucbcory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Captain Harlock Date: 30 Oct 85 17:53:29 GMT As I've spent my past two hours catching up on old news it seems that not too many people out there know that Captain Harlock is in release. Captain Harlock is being shown in the bay area on channel 36 at 4:30pm on weekdays under the title "Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years". Yes, it is being distributed by Harmony Gold, and yes it is a combination of Captain Harlock and Queen Millenia(sp?). If you have never seen Captain Harlock or seens from it, and you have watched Macross, Sothern Cross, and Mospeoda (i.e. Robotech), be warned Captain Harlock is done in a different animation style from Robotech. Some friends of mine who liked Robotech thought that Harlock would be just like it, since the advertisements up here said "From the same people who brought you Robotech." They thought that meant the same animators, but when they saw different, they didn't like it. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to see too many Harlocks, so I don't know how well Harmony Gold combined the two series. Hopefully they've done a good job. Sean "Yoda" Rouse ------------------------------ From: rochester!ciaraldi@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Ciaraldi) Subject: Re: Robotech Date: 31 Oct 85 02:57:08 GMT > Has anyone ever heard of Robotech? > It just recently started playing here in the afternoons, and.... > I'm hooked. > > Some questions I have: > > 1. Is it new > 2. Does it come in comic-book form (if so, where can I > get it?) > 3. Does anyone watch it beside me...has anyone HEARD of it > besides me? > > I would love to hear from anyone having ANY info on this > animated sf series. > > A lonely Micronian & Centratti fan....(sp may be wrong) > > *susan* Aha! Robotech strikes again! This has shown up in net.comics before, but the basic answers to your questions are the following: 1) Robotech is actually three Japanese animated series from the same company, reshuffled somwhat and dubbed into English by an American company, Harmony Gold. The three Japanese series were called MACROSS, SOUTHERN CROSS, and MOSPEADA. Two were in the same "universe" and the other wasn't, but has been rescripted to make it compatible. They are considered quite good examples of Japanimation. Each of the series has roughly 30 episodes, for a total of about 90. As rescripted into English, the 3 series relate like this: Macross is the first. It concerns an alien spaceship which crashed on Earth a long time ago. Earthlings finally figure out how to run it, and are just getting it ready for its first flight when the Zentraedi arrive. The ship (called SDF-1 for "Space Defense Fortress", I think) comes to life and attacks the aliens, and the Earthlings are plunged into battle. 20 years later, aliens attack again, and again Earthlings in battle armor and convertible vehicles defend the Earth. I don't know where the term "Southern Cross" fits in, but I remember a reference to "The Army of the Southern Cross". Another 20 years later (I think), there is another invasion, and the Earth is overwhelmed. As Mospeada opens, our hero crashlands in Central America and has to make his way to the former USA and Earth HQ. As I understand it, there is less space battle in this one. 2) Comico--The Comic Company is publishing the entire Robotech series in comic book form (there is a line in the closing credits to that effect). They are publishing it as three interlocking series. ROBOTECH--The MACROSS SAGA covers the first set of episodes, ROBOTECH MASTERS is the middle set, and ROBOTECH--THE NEW GENERATION is the final set. Because the whole series is so long, and being shown at different rates in different parts of the country, the comics publishing schedule is a little funny. Each of the 3 series publishes a new issue every 6 weeks (nominally, anyway), staggered so a new episode hits the stores every 2 weeks. Each series does its 30 or so consecuitve episodes in the same number (i.e. 30 or so) of issues. So, Macross Saga has about 6 issues out so far (the very first issue was called simply MACROSS, without "Robotech"), adapting the first 6 episoded. Masters has about 3 issues, adapting the first 3 episodes of Southern Cross, or what appears to the unsuspecting TV viewer as episodes 31-33 of Robotech, and New Generation similarly has aboyut 3 issues out. So, where do you get them? Comico I think sells only through comics stores and certain magazine stores, not regular newsstands or 7-11's. All three series are also avaialble from Comico by subscription, or from comics stores that sell mail order. If your local comics shop doesnt have back issues, try a biggie like Bud Plant in CA. 3) Does anyone else watch them? I have been reading all the issues, but finally last week saw my very first episode, discussed in the next news item. I hope this was helpful, and I hope I didn't get too many facts wrong, since I did this all from memory. Mike Ciaraldi seismo!rochester!ciaraldi ------------------------------ From: pedsgd!bobh@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Robotech Date: 29 Oct 85 13:14:17 GMT 1)) It's new in THIS country; it is a translation of (I gather) a three- part Japanese series; Macross (What I'm seeing here in NYC metro on Sat mornings 7:30AM; having to get up w/ toddlers on weekends has its advantages :-) ), Southern Cross, and Orguss. It has been reviewed somewhat in net.comics; general opinion is that it is probably the best of the 'giant robot' cartoon series brought over from Japan. 2)) Yes, it IS available in comic form; the closing credits for the episodes I see say as much. However, since the publisher (Comico) is one of the independents, you probably have to find a comics specialty shop in order to get them. I have seen three titles on the shelves; 'Robotech - The Macross Saga', 'Robotech Masters' and 'Robotech - The New Age (?)'. Try an inquiry in net.comics about mail-order or where you might find it locally. 3)) As I said, getting up with little ones on weekends has its pluses. :-) Bob Halloran Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, most Action Central}!vax135\ {topaz, pesnta, princeton}!petsd!pedsgd!bobh USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724 DDD: (201) 758-7000 ------------------------------ From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: Robotech Date: 29 Oct 85 17:23:25 GMT I don't know how old the series is, but I saw it in Hawaii in May and June of this year. It seeme to me that I came in on the middle of the story. Even so I became hooked very quickly, and was upset because I could not see them all (Robotech is not show in Indpls.). That is all I know about it; I hope it helps. Joland ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Space Is Clean Date: 31 Oct 85 21:25:28 GMT Space Is Clean An article by Mark R. Leeper I was listening to a record of music from science fiction films. They played the title song from the epic science fiction film GREEN SLIME (yes, there was a Japanese-American co-production called GREEN SLIME). The lyrics contain the lines: Man has looked out to space in wonder For thousands of years, Sometimes thinking that life could be somewhere And now...now it's here! "What a pity," I thought, "if after all that searching we found life and it made you sick just to look at it." But that got me thinking about how likely it was that if we found life in the universe it would likely be something that would turn our collective stomachs. There are, after all, not many life-forms on this planet that if you saw one scaled up to about six feet tall or 180 pounds would not make you at least a little queasy. I heard someplace that most of the animal biomass of the world is beetles. We should certainly be used to what a beetle looks like. Let's face it--Gregor Samsa didn't have any groupies. Mick Jagger has groupies, but even that is pushing human tolerance. Not that there isn't a good reason to instinctively be disgusted by relatively alien life-forms. That's nature's way of saying "Do not touch!" It is similar to the instinctive fear some people have of spiders and snakes. Somewhere in our past there were some pre-humans who hated spiders and snakes, and some who thought they were pretty and grabbed for them. The former group were our ancestors; the latter ended as Caveman McNuggets for jackals or buzzards or something. Life-forms fall into three classes: friends, food, and foes. That's the safest way for a pre-human to live. Friends better be close friends. So most life-forms we find disgusting, but the converse is even more true. Only a small part of the matter on Earth is connected with life- forms, yet everything disgusting is. I don't mean virtually everything, I mean everything. Think about it. What your cat left on the floor, the disposable diaper you kicked in the grocery parking lot, what you stepped in on the sidewalk: they are all icky because of their connection to living matter. There's nothing disgusting about rocks on the moon. People can say space is barren and cold but it isn't disgusting. When you find green slime, then it will be disgusting. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Nov 85 1018-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #426 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 6 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 426 Today's Topics: Books - Boucher & Heinlein & Hoyle & Tepper & Mono Sex Societies (3 msgs) & Star Trek, Films - The Brother From Another Planet, Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) & Archetypal Episodes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey) Subject: "The Quest for Saint Aquin" (SPOILER) Date: 31 Oct 85 17:21:23 GMT A short time ago in this newsgroup someone posted a request for a story about a priest who went on a pilgrimage to find a holy man (a candidate for sainthood) whose body had been miraculously preserved. The saint turns out to be a robot. The story is "The Quest for Saint Aquin" by Anthony Boucher. I found it in the SF Hall of Fame vol I. Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work) (607)-272-7750 (home) ------------------------------ From: tolerant!waynet@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Thompson) Subject: Re: new books Date: 31 Oct 85 09:30:36 GMT > From: romkey@BORAX.MIT.EDU (John Romkey) > I just picked up Heinlein's latest, "The Cat Who Walks Through > Walls" (inside, subtitled "A Comedy of Manners") in hardcover from > a local random bookstore, so it is now out. I also saw "Job" and > "So Long and Thanks for All the Fish" in paperback. > > So far (75 pages into it), The Cat seems like good old Heinlein. > One of the two main characters so far keeps saying "Want to go > back to bed?" The other is a former military type with a > disability who has taken up writing as a profession. Sound > familiar? Heinlein was one of my first reads, and as such brings back fond memories, however, it seems that after a point Heinlein runs philosophic, and loses sight of the plot line( I.E. _Number_of_the_Beast_, what ever happened to the meanies?). Heinlein has a limited stock of characters, good guys, (Himself young, himself as he now imagines himself (Jubal Harshaw, etc..), bad guys, and assorted strong, capable, intelligent (, and willing) females. The philosophy is there for the reading. Ah.... the good old days. ------------------------------ From: c50p-at@ucbzooey.BERKELEY.EDU (Jonathan Dubman) Subject: Hoyle and "Ossian's Ride" Date: 1 Nov 85 07:46:08 GMT Has anyone else read "Ossian's Ride" by Fred Hoyle? He is probably best known for "The Black Cloud" but "Ossian's Ride" is an oft-overlooked thriller that is very well done. I highly recommend it. (It is available at many used bookstores; it may be out of print.) It dates from the late 50s, I believe, and takes place in the "future" of 1971 or so. The main character is entirely believable, the setting in rural Ireland inventive, and the plot well formulated. Without spoiling more than the first few pages, the main character is a young Englishman who is talked into becoming an agent to look into some mysterious doings in western Ireland. This is one of the few books I just could not put down. Has anyone read any other Fred Hoyle books? I've only read those two mentioned above. I am interested in any other opinions. Jonathan Dubman UUCP: ucbvax!ucbzooey!c50p-at ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 85 23:41:47 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Sheri Tepper's True Game Books: A trilogy of trilogies (so Subject: far); potential spoiler If you haven't read the True Game Series, this message could contain some spoiler information. Forewarned is forearmed. >From: anasazi!duane@topaz.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) >This book is the first of a trilogy, the other two being >NECROMANCER NINE and WIZARD'S ELEVEN. The world is one in which the >important > >KING'S BLOOD FOUR 3.0 stars (very good), and I look forward to >reading WIZARD'S ELEVEN. This trilogy is the first in what is currently a trilogy of trilogies King's blood Four, Necromancer Nine and Wizard's Eleven About Peter, introducing the world, in which Peter gets involved in world-shaking events. The Song of Mavin-Manyshaped, The Flight of Mavin-Manyshaped, The Search of Mavin-Manyshaped About Peter's mother, growing up and doing interesting things. Takes us up to the time that she is pregnant with Peter. Jinian Footseer First in the third trilogy, the other two books aren't out yet. One of the characters from the first trilogy, her growing up and some of the events from a different point of view. Takes us up to the end of Peter's trilogy. Tepper has the rare ability that she can tell the same story from different points of view and have it come out differently... as it would in real life. Tepper took a science fiction idea as a basis and created an entire world out of it. These could either be fantasy or sf books... and there are always mysteries to solve, since no one that we have met yet knows a significant fraction about the world. definitely good stuff! /amqueue ------------------------------ From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 31 Oct 85 07:56:00 GMT On a related theme, there's "The Crime and the Glory of Commander Sudzul", by the late Cordwainer Smith (actually the late Paul Linebarger, I think). *** SPOILER *** On a new colony, femininity becomes carcinogenic (say THAT three times fast!), and some fancy genetic engineering has to be done. Unfortunately, it seems to me to be rather homophobic: more would spoil too much. ------------------------------ From: wildbill@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (William J. Laubenheimer) Subject: Re: single sex societies Date: 1 Nov 85 02:56:41 GMT > Anybody else notice that all the examples given so far have been >all female societies?? > > Of course as soon as I typed that, I thought of an all male >example. In Andre Norton's Witch World series there was a race of >men (who name involved hawks somehow) that raided villages for >women. These women were kept until they had a child. If the child >were female, both were allowed to go back home. If the child were >male, She was kept for 4 years to raise the boy. At the end of 4 >years, the mother went home and the son stayed with the men. > >Tracey Heffelfinger >Digital Equipment Corp. >Greenville, S.C. Another male example is the society of klopts in Cordwainer Smith's story, "The Crime and The Glory of Commander Suzdal". The details of reproduction were not terribly explicit, since the main point of introducing the society was to explore the nature of an all-male society. Bill Laubenheimer UC-Berkeley Computer Science ucbvax!wildbill ------------------------------ Date: Fri 1 Nov 85 17:55:15-CST From: Mayank Prakash Subject: Re: Monosexual Societies......... > Peter G. Trei : > Technological advances do not occur in a vacuum. Around any >breakthrough there are a swarm of related advances, and the >interactions of these is impossible to predict. I would suggest >that the same science which may one day give us female-female >reproduction is moving us towards a situation in which sex becomes >a moot point, particularly for reproduction. > > We are slowly but steadily cracking the code of the human >genome. It is not too wild a speculation to suggest that within >the next century we will be able to select the genes of our >offspring as easily as we assemble the components of a computer >system today. Want your child to be beautiful? You can. Want a >guarantee against cancer? You can get it. Want intelligence? >Musical talent? Good teeth? Longevity? No pimples? Soon these >will be selectable at will in ones offspring. > > Once this technology is in place (and I expect to live to see >at least some of it), sex becomes an irrelevancy. Ones' child could >be truly ONEs' child. Male and female characteristics become >optional extras (though doubtless almost a 'standard option', at >least at first). But why should genders be limited to two? I >expect talented designer geneticists (they make designer genes) >would come up with viable ideas for totally new sexes, opening the >door to hitherto unknown classes of love and pleasure. > > If one could design one's heirs as easily as one designs a >house, what would they be like? The question of gender becomes a >small factor in a much larger universe of choice. Try Lem's "Star Diaries" to see these ideas carried out to their logical extreme. mayank. ------------------------------ Date: 31 Oct 85 23:50:20 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Disagreement with jayembee(!!!) over Lichtenberg >From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) >> From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} >> I sit here blithely replying, and find that I can only >> remember one of the author's names: Jacqueline Lichtenberg, >> currently of Sime/Gen fame. The other author wrote a Star Trek >> fact book in the mid-70's I think, in which case it would be Joan >> Winston, but I havent been able to find these books in my library >> for a couple of years;... > > They say memory is the first to go... :-) mea culpa, I beat my breast. I am wrong wrong wrong. I thought I had sent a message to Saul saying !Dont print that! but I obviously missed. I humbly beg forgiveness, please stop beating me! >The writers of PRICE OF THE PHOENIX and FATE OF THE PHOENIX (as >well as at least one other Trek novel, the title of which I forget >and am too lazy to look up, and editing the two NEW VOYAGES >anthologies) are Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. Lichtenberg >never wrote a Star Trek novel (unless it was fan published), but >her sometime Sime/Gen collaborator, Jean Lorrah, wrote THE VULCAN >ACADEMY MURDERS. > > --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) I hate to disagree with you, jerry, (you dont know how I hate this!) but I distinctly remember picking up House of Zeor because of Lichtenberg's name. At the time I was even more a ST fanatic than I am now (I had more time and money (my dad bought the books)), so it is possible that she was just fan-published, in which case it would be in Spockanalia, that being the only zines I had. But I really think it was from a book, or a short story. Maybe one of the Fact Trek Books? My dad is insisting that he keep all our trek books in his house, so I can't go look it up... (meanie!) /amqueue ------------------------------ From: graffiti!peter@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva) Subject: Favorite Villians (spoiler) Date: 23 Oct 85 09:43:03 GMT I just saw "The Brother from Another Planet". Folks, this movie is actually good Science Fiction! There are two characters here that are probably the first believable aliens I've seen on the screen. I'm talking about the two bad guys... They absolutely steal the movie. At first they seem to be standard issue alien bounty hunters (:->), but it became increasingly obvious as the film progressed that they were quite literally bloodhounds. As an example, the way they react to the hero's territorial markings (graffiti) is beautiful, straight out of a textbook. By the end of the movie you can tell that they, too, are not only slaves but effectively domestic animals, bred for the purpose from some hunting carnivore. I'm amazed that this movie hasn't been better recieved by the SF crowd... all I'd heard of it was "oh yes, nice twist, the alien's black". Peter da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter ------------------------------ Return-path: From: tim@k.cs.cmu.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!) Date: 30 Oct 85 20:08:50 GMT I liked the mummy episode as well. It was a pleasure to see Spielberg drop his obsession with modern middle-class white America for a little while. Of course, the cute kid was still there -- I think it's in the contract with the network -- but he was introduced to parody Westerns, not just to provide us with that back-porch remote-control-TV atmosphere. Of course, I'm a sucker for good parodies, and this one managed to lambaste both Westerns and monster movies within a half hour! Tim Maroney, CMU Center for Art and Technology Tim.Maroney@k.cs.cmu.edu uucp: {seismo,decwrl,etc.}!k.cs.cmu.edu!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 ------------------------------ From: videovax!shuju@caip.rutgers.edu (Shuju Burgess) Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!) Date: 30 Oct 85 18:37:17 GMT >> Ok, I'll admit it. I liked the AMAZING STORIES done on 10/27. > > Me too. It was a good night for NBC; I also liked the Hitchcock > episode that followed. You *knew* that she was going to get buried > alive, but the *reason* was totally unexpected. I had assumed that > the old man would find out he'd been tricked (or that he could > really see all along) and would simply leave her there. > > Phil OK, if we're going to allow TV-talk in net.movies, I'll put in my $.02 too. I've seen the new Hitchcock Presents 3 times, and all three times I had the ending figured out about 15 minutes into the show, and this includes the episode mentioned above. I haven't seen any Amazing Stories except for the first one, but it wasn't nearly as good as I had hoped. Needless to say, I am pretty disappointed at both of those shows. Shu-Ju ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468) Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes Date: 30 Oct 85 15:20:17 GMT Some good responses noted on this subject. Is "Amazing stories" really as bad as it sounds? How can anything be that bad (Galactica accepted)? Ho hum... Here is another gestalt adventure, at the expense of DR WHO. 1) The Tardis materializes on a deserted barren wasteland somewhere in the south of England. The Doctor and his 'screamers' (companions) dash outside (without checking atmosphere, radiation, life-readings etc) and wonder about until one of them gets lost. The Doctor goes looking for this companion and gets separated from all the others. Meanwhile the first companion has discovered the Alien lifeform from the Doctors past. But it is getting towards the end of the first episode so something exciting has got to happen involving the Doctor, the Aliens and the prospect of sudden death, so the aliens reveal themselves and attempt to kill the Doctor.....CREDITS 2) One of the Aliens says something to the effect of "He is of more use alive" or "He must suffer for our past defeats" or "He is the major character, lets explain the plot first , then try to kill him!". The result is the Doctor lives, is reunited with companions and escapes just in time for next weeks cliffhanger...CREDITS 3) Building up to the final episode, usually quite slow and boring..CREDITS 4) The usual length for an adventure. The Doctor combines forces with the down-trodden inhabitants suppressed by the Aliens. After a battle involving lots of low budget effects they emerge victorious and, before they can thank the Doctor ,he leaves leaving goggle eyed natives staring at an empty space. CREDITS This is slightly more prdictable than the Star Trek episode: "RETURN OF THE APPLEING MACHINE WITHIN" (the last attempt) and relates to so many episodes that naming it would be a shame. Honestly, I do like DR WHO! Andy T. P.S. Nightmare episodes of other series are being draughted at this moment. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.... P.S.S. I am in two minds as whether to do one for 1999. Looking at the second season, I don't think it needs any more. Also it would probably turn out to be better scripted. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 85 0915-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #427 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 427 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Ryan & Bugs & Book Request & Mono Sex Societies (4 msgs), Television - Archetypal Episodes, Miscellaneous - Getting Published & Chambanacon & Locus & Identifying SF-Lovers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: graffiti!peter@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Later Asimov Date: 3 Nov 85 09:42:33 GMT > To be fair to Isaac in his declining years, I think that it should > be noted that some of his 'Golden years' stuff were duds or near > duds. Take the 'Stars Like Dust' for example, or the 'God's > Themselves' (yes I know it was later, but really, if you think sex > with robots is weird) . Yes, I would put Foundations Edge well > ahead of each. Interesting. I consider "The Gods Themselves" (no posessive) one of his best. Incidentally, Robots and Empire is rather good, though he does telegraph his punches rather badly. As for The Robots of Dawn: There's a bug in it. At one point Lije Bailey is shown a starscape using a machine that directly stimulates the visual cortex. This turns out to be important later on. The problem is that they blank out Aurora's sun to protect his retina? His retina? What does his retina have to do with it? Peter da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter ------------------------------ From: c50p-at@ucbzooey.BERKELEY.EDU (Jonathan Dubman) Subject: "The Adolescence of P-1": Seen it? Date: 2 Nov 85 07:43:21 GMT A few years back I borrowed and read a book by Thomas P. Ryan entitled, "The Adolescence of P-1". It was about a computer program designed to "learn" based on its input; the main character feeds it versions of science textbooks, literature, etc. After a while it learns English and starts actually learning the knowledge of mankind, without the protagonist's knowledge. On its own, it gains access to a network (like the network file-transfer program) and spreads throughout college campuses and companies' computers. It starts twiddling things in the background, and so on. I tried to purchase my own copy at many new and used bookstores but either they had never heard of it or they said it was out of print as of several years ago. The copy I saw was an oversized paperback. A few months ago, a friend of mine said he had seen a new hardcover edition of "The Adolescence of P-1" copyright 1985, but I have not been able to find it anywhere. Is the book really in print? Has Ryan written anything else? The book was written well enough that I would want to read others by the same author. Please respond via email. Jonathan Dubman UUCP: ucbvax!ucbzooey!c50p-at or: ucbvax!ucbcad!ucbzooey!c50p-at ------------------------------ From: netex!ewiles@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Wiles) Subject: Re: Big Bugs - any pointers?? Date: 2 Nov 85 04:02:46 GMT >From: RNeal@HIS-PHOENIX-MULTICS.ARPA > I am looking for stories or possibly essay-type discussions about > giant insects. I suggest "Nor Crystal Tears", the pre-quel(sp?) to Alan Dean Foster's 'Humannx' stories. Very good! E. L. Wiles Tech. Staff Member NetExpress Inc. UUCP: {seismo,rlgvax}!hadron!netex!ewiles ------------------------------ From: ukc!scifi@caip.rutgers.edu (I.L.Sewell) Subject: Lost story/novel Date: 2 Nov 85 16:47:07 GMT This is a request for help about a story (novel?) that is really annoying me because I can't remember much about it and I think I should because it was really good.(the old brain aint what it used to be) Anyhow, I recently bought a copy of High Rise by J.G.Ballard thinking that it was the story/novel that I was thinking about. But after reading the first few chapters I realised that I had read this before and it wasn't the story/novel that I wanted to read. After racking my brains for a few days I have decided to ask the net to see if anyone can remember the story/novel and who wrote it. What I can remember is this:all the action takes place in these giant blocks of flats (see why I got it confused with High Rise) which are self contained buildings. The block is broken up into groups of floors named after cities-the lowest being Warsaw I think (another block which some minor characters are to move to was to name the floors after famous men),with the poorest workers at the bottom of the block and the richest at the top. This is just about all I can remember apart from the fact that it was common for you to leave your room door open as at night people swapped partners quite frequently. I know this is very scanty information but any info on the story/novel would be appreciated if only to put my mind at rest. cheers IAN SEWELL ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@caip.rutgers.edu (The Polymath) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 31 Oct 85 23:12:12 GMT > What would a society be like if all repoduction (or most ) > was done this way since the society would consist entirely of > females.What would be the role of males (if any existed),would > they be kept as pets? revired?, or treated as equals (they would > certainly have 'abnormal' sexual disires as far as the rest of > society was concerned, unless you use two male genes and find a > kindly womb donor.) > Any one know of any stories based on this? I can think of one such story in which the society was all male with no females at all. The story is "The Crime and the Glory of Commander Suzdal" by Cordwainer Smith (aka Dr. Paul Linebarger) and appears in at least two collections of his work. Reversing the theme is Ursula Leguin's _The Left Hand of Darkness_, about a society where everyone is a fully functional hermaphrodite. Also with that theme is _Venus Plus X_ by Theodore Sturgeon(?). Jerry Hollombe Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ Date: Fri 1 Nov 85 23:19:29-EST From: LINDSAY@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: RE: out of batteries ! If the idea of a monosexual society amuses you, then you should read "Virgin Planet" (Poul Anderson, 1959). Our hero (a male) finds a planet which was accidently colonized. The all-female castaways luckily had the technology to cause virgin births (and in 1959, frozen sperm hadn't been thought of). Naturally, the castaways started a hereditary priesthood to maintain that technology. The story line is a bit sexist (and a bit simple). What interested me was the society, composed entirely of identical twins. Everyone was (of course) exactly the same as one of the 100 original castaways. One village was populated by a single type (which disliked all the other types). Other villages had a rigid caste structure, based on the fact that everyone's aptitudes were known from birth. As for WHY we have two sexes, I recommend some of the recent popular works on evolution. The concensus seems to be that it is in the interests of women to keep around the silly things "whose only talents are to fight and to make noise". Enjoy, Don Lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Nov 85 14:41:09 est From: Carol Morrison Subject: Mono Sex Societies >I know I have read a short story like this. Some colony got hit by >a plague which killed all of the men. The women figured out a way >to fertilize each other. A long time later, a "rescue team" shows >up, consisting of some men. They knew that there were only women >left, and expected to be jumped all over by the women. They showed >up making snide remarks about how the women must be really lonely, >etc. But the women had no idea what they were talking about. > >Unfortunately, I don't remenber who wrote it or what the title was, >but it might have been in one of the Dangerous Visions books. "When It Changed", by Joanna Russ, a real consciousness-raiser in 'Again, Dangerous Visions'. The women procreate by merging egg cells, as I recall. Not only do the women have no idea what the men are talking about, but they are repulsed by the men's coarse features and rough voices, and especially by their constant implications that the women are inferior. Leaves you with unpleasant forbodings of the mass rape of a planet full of capable, decent people. ------------------------------ From: graffiti!peter@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: Monosexual Societies......... Date: 3 Nov 85 10:22:35 GMT >> If one could design one's heirs as easily as one designs a >>house, what would they be like? The question of gender becomes a >>small factor in a much larger universe of choice. > > Try Lem's "Star Diaries" to see these ideas carried out to their > logical extreme. > Also much of John Varley's works, particularly the Ophiuchi Hotline universe and (even more) "The Conglomeroid Cocktail Party". Peter da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes Date: 31 Oct 85 10:47:51 GMT thornton@argon.UUCP (znac468) writes: > Ho hum... Here is another gestalt adventure, at the expense of DR > WHO..... > This is slightly more prdictable than the Star Trek episode: >"RETURN OF THE APPLEING MACHINE WITHIN" (the last attempt) and >relates to so many episodes that naming it would be a shame. >Honestly, I do like DR WHO! So do I. You've forgotten the two most important archetypal lines, though. 1) Doctor's companion - "Look out, behind you, Doctor!" (Rubber monster, Mechanoid, Dalek, etc. lumbers into view) 2) The Doctor - "If I reverse the polarity and give it all we've got, it might just work..." (Last ditch Finagle gadget blasts rubber monster, mechanoid, Dalek, etc. into its component quarks) Peter Kendell ...mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Getting published Date: 30 Oct 85 01:02:04 GMT ins_amap@jhunix.UUCP (Mark Aden Poling) writes: >The booklet Amazing is putting out on writing SF strikes me as a >tract on how to write stuff that George Scithers might like. Well, yes, but George (who also wrote the original for IASFM when he was editor there) knows what he is talking about. He is also by far the best market for a new editor (followed by IASFM -- unless Gardner Dozois changes policies radically). The hardest seem to be F&SF and Analog -- it seems rather rare that either publishes the first story by anyone Anyway, other resources for the aspiring writer would have to include the monthly rag 'Writers Digest', which is the best place to keep track of the writing market in general. It also has a lot of useful articles on technique and is a good place to have drooping morale rebuilt. The 1986 Writers Guide is now out, with addresses and needs of all of the known magazines, book publishers, and agents out there -- a must if you are serious about publishing because some of the best places to publish are ones you probably haven't heard of yet. They also usually have a number of articles on how to get started in that book, and how to get better. Writers digest also usually comes out with one or two special issues a year on freelancing, so keep an eye out for them. For more specific (and usually up to date) information on the SF market, track down Locus, the resident Hugo winning semi-prozine. Also, I believe the SFWA magazine (available to outsiders, I believe) has market information as well. > (Has anyone noticed that, once one has assigned a story to >the loving care of the US Postal System, one becomes a nervous >wreck? Not to mention all the worries over what those mean nasty >editors are going to *DO* to the poor thing. Or even the >pre-response depression over the aniticipated rejection slip. Very few editors are nasty. If you've ever found yourself in the middle of a slush pile, you'll see why they sometimes get a bit short tempered. If you think a writer has it bad, imagine an editor having to read the equivalent of two weeks of net.flame to find a buyable story. Last I heard, most magazines were buying 1 out of about 100 manuscripts, and some markets (like playboy and Better Homes and Gardens) are about 1 out of 10,000. At the best of times, it isn't a good bet. All you can do is put experience on your side. Write, write, and rewrite... A quick hint -- the anxieties don't get better with experience. With luck, you learn to cope. If not, you stop writing. >Why does anyone do it?) You write because you have to, of course... Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: mcdaniel@uiucdcsb.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Chambana Date: 31 Oct 85 08:14:00 GMT Someone asked a while ago about ChamBanacon, but I didn't save the address. Here's the compressed info. I am not connected in any way with the con (I'm not even going -- going home instead). Nov. 29-Dec. 1 (usual Thanksgiving weekend), at the Chancellor Hotel (same place as usual, used to be a Ramada), 1501 S. Neil St., Champaign, Il. 61820. There will be another convention at the hotel the same weekend -- you MUST make room reservations early! Registration: checks should be made out to/sent to CHAMBANACON, P. O. Box 2908, Springfield, Il. 62708. Con-Com: M. David and Marsha Brim at same address in Springfield (SASE if reply needed). Huckster Room Chair: Rusty Hevelin, Box 112, Dayton, OH 45401 -- (513) 236 0728. Space limited to 22 tables. Art chair: Jhondo Oakenshield, 807 Oakcrest, Champaign, IL 61820. Original art only, can be accepted by mail. Banquet: total limit 65. Linguini w/ meat sauce, Seafood Newburg, roast turkey with sage dressing (of course!), salads, vegetables, and cherry turnovers. Film/video chair: Penny Watkins, c/o com-con addr -- suggestions accepted gladly. Weapons: DON'T, with a mundane convention in the same hotel. Edged weapons should be peace sealed, blasters, etc., kept discreet. For more info, you can e-mail me, or call the appropriate people. Tim McDaniel; CSRD at the Silicon Prairie (Center for Supercomputing Research and Development at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) Internet: mcdaniel@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu (Or try: mcdaniel%uicsrd.csrd@uiuc.edu) (Arpa, for old mailers: mcdaniel@Uiuc.arpa) Usenet: ...{pur-ee|ihnp4|convex}!uiucdcs!mcdaniel Bitnet: MCDANIEL AT UIUCVMD ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Locus Date: 1 Nov 85 05:45:53 GMT > Anyone have current information on how to get a subscription to >Locus? Locus Publications P.O. Box 13305 Oakland, CA 94661 Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 85 08:37 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: A few years ago... As an effort to identify SF-Lovers at conventions, since not everyone has their name tattooed on their forehead, I and my Macintosh, are willing to create the necessary designs and print T shirts and/or buttons. The T shirts are of the iron-on variety (as opposed to the silk screen method which costs more and lasts longer) and the buttons are of the finest quality (i.e. Badge-A-Minit). Both can be done in colors with a bit more work. Current ideas are to revive the old format, an @ sign, as an SF-Lover identifying mark. I have made a few buttons with the complete Arpa address, but I can make them with your specific path and/or return path on it too. Ideas are welcome, and I would hope to meet someone from the net at the con in SF on the 16th & 17th. Remember, DeForest Kelley will be there. Write me if you are interested or have ideas, questions, comments, or directed insults. Jon Pugh pugh%e@lll-mfe.arpa PO Box 5509 L-561 Livermore, CA 94550 (415) 423-4239 770 Chippewa Way Livermore, CA 94550 (415) 449-1436 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 85 0956-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #428 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 428 Today's Topics: Books - Brin (2 msgs) & Ellison & Lessing & MacCaffrey & Ryan & Zelazny & Mono Sex Societies, Films - Lifeforce, Television - Robotech & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ucla-cs!jeanne@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Uplift War Date: 1 Nov 85 18:02:01 GMT Henry_P._Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA writes: > What is the latest on the Uplift War by David Brin. The last >news I read was it would be out in April. Is this still true? No, it's not. I spoke to Brin at his autograph party at Change of Hobbit last Saturday, and he said "The Uplift War" has been delayed till next fall by 2 books that will be coming out before it--one is his collaboration with Greg Benford (sorry, I can't remember the exact title, but it's about rendezvousing with a comet), and a short story collection (which will have three stories never before seen). Jeanne Douglas UCLA Computer Science (jeanne@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU) ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 85 09:13:17 PST (Monday) Subject: "The Postman" by David Brin From: Cate3.EIS@Xerox.ARPA "The Postman" by David Brin. Published November 1985. Hardback. ***** minor spoiler ***** One of the things I liked about "The Postman" were the messages. Gordon is looking for security at first. Then he learns to accept responsibility as part of the price of freedom. And finally starts calling others to responsibility. "Sundriver" and "Startide Rising" are better, but this is good. Henry III ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 85 20:58 CST From: Jerry Bakin Subject: Twilight Zone on 8 November & Harlan Ellison The twilight zone on Friday should be excellent. It features "Paladin of the Lost Hour", an Ellison short story. (I'm sorry I can't be sure of the title, I believe that was it.) I heard Harlan Ellison read this on "Hour Twenty Five" (an LA Pacifica radio show) around June or May. The story was excellent, at the time I had no knowledge of Harlan's connection with Twilight Zone, and I remember thinking this was definitely the next Nebula or Hugo winner. I haven't seen it published anywhere since then, this may be the first time it has been seen? The night of the first of the new Twilight Zone episodes, I heard Ellison (again on Hour Twenty Five) discussing some of the adaptations. Only a few changes, none because of censorship, but some to make it more amenable to the medium. He fought (naturally, hmm?) a few network censors to allow some of the original lines untouched, but he did make the comment that none of these fights were too difficult, because even the censors saw the importance of the story and lines, and because they were as eager as anyone to help the new Twilight Zone. Anyway, this should be good. If the TV presentation is one tenth the reading, this will win an Emmy (sp?). On the other hand, if it is not as good as the reading, I will be disappointed, as I would rather see Harlan Ellison read it himself! No review, no spoilers, see it for yourself. Jerry Bakin. ------------------------------ From: royt@gatech.CSNET (Roy M Turner) Subject: Re: Canopus in Argos - Doris Lessing Date: 3 Nov 85 19:56:24 GMT Hullo... I have read all (I think) of these books. They are (despite the review I just read in reply to your posting) quite good; I was not put off by the "I am telling an important story" attitude, since 1) I didn't really feel that it was present, and 2) she IS telling an important story. That it isn't a new slant escaped me, too...I really hadn't read anything similar to the first one, and *certainly* nothing similar to the rest, with the exception of _The Sentimental Agents_, which was reminiscent of Swift. I would recommend reading them, but of course everyone has different tastes! Try 'em, you might like them! :-) Roy ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Anne McCaffrey's female characters Date: 1 Nov 85 17:52:53 GMT Lubkin@caip.RUTGERS.EDU writes: >Poor Anne ... To L S Chabot: look at the copyrights on Dragonquest >and Restoree. They're only a few years apart. The strength of >Lessa should have been a clue that something was amiss with >Restoree. She wrote Restoree with tongue in cheek, as a parody of >that kind of book. To her continuing chagrin, first the editors at >Ballantine and now legions of readers take the book as a straight >adventure story. The cover blurbs are largely responsible I think. >And now you're accusing her of the very attitudes she was >lambasting in the book.... In a short conversation with Anne McCaffrey at a book signing she said that "Restoree" started out to be a straight romance novel but the SF elements just kind on snuck in there and took over. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ From: graffiti!peter@caip.rutgers.edu (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: "The Adolescence of P-1": Seen it? Date: 4 Nov 85 04:59:37 GMT > A few years back I borrowed and read a book by Thomas P. Ryan > entitled, "The Adolescence of P-1". It was about a computer > program designed to "learn" based on its input; the main character > feeds it versions of science textbooks, literature, etc. Actually, what it was designed to learn was how to break security systems. It got the science and literature on its own by looking at phototypesetter files, after it had escaped. Peter da Silva UUCP: ...!shell!{graffiti,baylor}!peter IAEF: ...!kitty!baylor!peter ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Lord of Light Date: 4 Nov 85 17:46:50 GMT >jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa writes: >I *love* the book, but there is one thing I would change: the >annoyingly cryptic inside-out time-line. The literary device is "in medias res". All ancient epics (and even newer ones--see "Paradise Lost") are constructed this way. Homer uses it. Try reading the Ramayana sometime--it bounces around like a ping-pong ball. (Yes, if you enjoyed LOL, DO read the Ramayana. Zelazny used a lot of it. The monkey companion is the most obvious. Then there are the Rakshasa...) This was a deliberate device to simulate such an epic. It is only confusing to us because its use is uncommon now--and it is unexpected. I'm glad he did it--it really added something, and was a mark of real craftsmanship. Does anyone know of any other sf that uses this? One would think that it would go well with fantasy. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 85 11:11:50 EST From: Paula_S._Sanch%Wayne-MTS%UMich-MTS.Mailnet@MIT-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: mono sex societies andy writes: > what's the feasability of taking genes from two females > and combining them together, The main problem at this point is how to initiate the process of multiplication/specialization which the zygote begins subsequent to fertilization (embryogenesis). Lots of work has been done with inserting individual chromosomes into some cells of blastulas, as well as with the creation of individuals(?) with mosaic heredity [look this up in Science Index under "chimera"; there's *lots*, mostly done with mice. One of the experts whom I respect on this is at Indiana University. IU and U of Penn are the institutions where some of the most significant work in this field has been done.] Once the problem of initiating embryogenesis (in *mammals*) following insertion of foreign DNA by some means other than penetration by a spermatid has been solved, the rest is gravy. > I realise that only female children could be born this way (YY > chromsone?) XX chromOsoMeS [Sometimes I wonder if spelling is on the X chromosome. Then I remember my mentor's problems with it.] > and this leads me to the main thrust of the question. What would > a society be like if all repRoduction (or most) was done this way > since the society would consist entirEly of females. What would > be the role of males? would they be kept as pets? revEred? or > treated as equals Any one know of any stories based on this? Clearly, you are not familiar with the work of "James Tiptree Jr." A famous short story which believeably characterizes such a society is "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?" Amusingly, one of the characters in the story is "an andy". Another less well-known, but (to me) equally good short story of a mono-sexual human society, also by Tiptree (Alice Sheldon) is "Your Haploid Heart." I heartily recommend it for pathos, poignancy, empathy, drama... There's also, of course, Ursula LeGuin's _Left Hand of Darkness_. > Any ideas on the feasability, society, role of men. I think it's pretty clear you'd all be redundant, love. But don't worry. None of it's coming soon, if at all. And I think most of us fems would opt to keep you as pets--that's how many of us have felt about it for a long time, anyway. Playfully, Paula ------------------------------ From: duts!shiva@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: LIFEFARCE Rebuttal Date: 1 Nov 85 22:23:02 GMT > Has anyone seen that 'sci-fi' film LIFEFORCE ? > You know, 'Beyond space they found something fairly >horrible (but it couldn't act)'. It is so bad it is almost good. > > Most of the film was actually ... bad ........ being an excuse for > Mathilda May to wander around naked for three-quarters of the >film. > As witnessed by:R.Ramsay > Ashvin Patel > Anthony Flynn > Carlos Sarno > Andy Thornton. Gentlemen: I take exception to your scathing review. I did not find it bad at all. In fact I thought it was a fine example of horror-sf films, better then 98% of the garbage movies in that category. The special effects were quite good, especially the corpses turning to dust, and the wonderful shots of the destruction of London (not that I have anything against London - splendid city, one of my favorites). The alien ship was truly alien, and the aliens were chilling. I also found the story to be quite a good one of it's type (alien/ vampire), and believe that most sf lovers and vampire fanciers would find it internaly consistent and interesting. The ending was certainly not entirely predictable. As for the acting, well certainly no Oscars here, but it was adequate. Personally I am of the opinion that the movie was directed in a somewhat stylized fashion. (Witness the opening scenes - we jump right into the midst of the action and waste no time in getting to the point - I rather liked that, no boring exposition about points obvious to any sf fancier). Therefore I believe that to a certain extent the acting was also rather stylized, especially on the part of Peter Firth, and that it was so on purpose. But enough of this essay. I would pay $5 for this movie if I were a sf/horror fan. (As I am) P.S. Even if the movie *was* just an excuse for Mathilda May to slink around naked and look seductively menacing I would still pay $5. Maybe more. Probably more. In fact, I think I'll buy the tape... Shiva, Amdahl ------------------------------ From: birtch!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Pipkins x257) Subject: Re: Robotech Date: 2 Nov 85 07:49:04 GMT > Has anyone ever heard of Robotech? > It just recently started playing here in the afternoons, and.... > I'm hooked. > > Some questions I have: > > 1. Is it new No! I've seen the entire series from the centrani (sp) to the invids(sp) and it ended in July or some past time. > 2. Does it come in comic-book form (if so, where can I > get it?) I don't know. But Heavy Metal magazine (I got them all except issue #2, May 1977, because it wasn't available on the west coast) offers a video tape (perhaps more). (Heavy Metal, Dept. 985, 635 Madison Ave., New York, NY, 10032). > 3. Does anyone watch it beside me...has anyone HEARD of it > besides me? I have and consider it the best animated series on Los Angeles TV in many years. All the elements I want in that type of series is present. > I would love to hear from anyone having ANY info on this > animated sf series. Me too. Reply via E-mail or here. John Pipkins ...!trwrb!scgvaxd!felix!birtch!john ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@caip.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold) Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes Date: 2 Nov 85 12:25:30 GMT Some years ago, some humorist at TV Guide amused himerself by summarizing Star Trek for several weeks as "The Enterprise encounters a seemingly idyllic planet, but Captain Kirk senses all is not well." This was followed by several weeks of episodes summarized as "The Enterprise gets into trouble and only Captain Kirk can save it." Lee Gold ------------------------------ Date: Sun 3 Nov 85 02:23:09-PST From: Roger Crew Subject: Re: Time Travel Strictly speaking, velocities are relative. There is a fix, however. One of the discoveries that accompanied that of the 3-degree background radiation (...think of it as stray photons left over from the Big Bang...) was the fact that there is a measureable doppler shift in this radiation. That is, it is possible to measure the velocity of the earth with respect to the ``primordial fireball.'' Once we do that, we can ascribe velocities to the sun, the center of our galaxy, etc... Thus we have, in some sense, a universal frame of reference, with respect to which the idea of an absolute velocity vector makes sense. One could point at a certain part of the sky, say that the earth is heading that way and say that, 100 years from now, we'll ``be'' a certain distance from here in that direction... This works provided we keep the times/distances small enough (cosmologically) that the notion of frames of reference still applies (i.e., don't try to say anything about where we'll be 10^9 years from now). Note that the idea of absolute location is still meaningless. None of this saves Gregory Benford, however, since the 3-degree radiation wasn't discovered until 1967; his physicist at UCwherever in 1962 wouldn't have known anything about it.... Roger Crew ------------------------------ From: duts!shiva@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Time travel, center of mass Date: 1 Nov 85 21:52:35 GMT > From: Alan Wexelblat > Is it the case that the center of mass of the universe doesn't > move? Is is (theoretically) possible to calculate our > position/velocity w.r.t. this non-moving point? On the contrary, the center of mass of the universe must move, since all the masses in it are constantly moving. Mass is constantly being redistributed hence the center of mass has to move *with respect to any other mass*. It does not make sense to talk about the center of mass moving with respect to anything else, because there is no absolute frame of reference (thanks to Dr. Einstein). As to calculating our velocity with respect to the center of mass at any one instant, well, wouldn't you have to know the position of every other mass in the universe at that instant? You can't do this because of the speed of light (even assuming you could accumulate all that information in some computer) which will only tell you where any particular mass was sometime in the past. Now, having said all this, this is sf-lovers after all, so anything is possible... Shiva, Amdahl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 7 Nov 85 1026-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #429 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 7 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 429 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Hogan & Ryan & Saberhagen & The Greening of Mars & End of the World Stories, Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) & Star Trek & The Magic of Special Effects Miscellaneous - Getting Published (2 msgs) & Typos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: inmet!porges@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 2 Nov 85 23:25:00 GMT THIS CONTAINS MORE SPOILER INFO FROM "ROBOTS AND EMPIRE": Will Daneel be around at the end of Asimov's time line, in the sequel to "Foundation's Edge"? Think a bit earlier: if Hari Selden turns out to be a robot, you'll hear me cackling with satisfaction at having guessed it now, even though I hate the idea for aethetic reasons. Oh, yeah -- the Mule could read minds and affect emotions, couldn't he? You don't suppose... Don Porges ...harpo!inmet!porges ...hplabs!sri-unix!cca!ima!inmet!porges ...yale-comix!ima!inmet!porges ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 85 17:16:00 MST From: e-smith@utah-cs.ARPA (Eric L. Smith) Subject: James P. Hogan: _The Proteus Operation_ I, too, consider this to be his greatest work to date. It never ceases to amaze me how he can start with a simple explanation of affairs and keep adding complicated details throughout a book (or trilogy) without any holes or inconsistancies (that I can find). I highly recommend it! (And I can't stand most historical fiction!) ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Adolescence of P-1 Date: 4 Nov 85 19:38:38 GMT I'm sure I saw copies of "Adolescence of P-1" at the local Walden Books just the other day (in trade paperback). Ask your bookstore to check "Books in Print" again. There's always the used book stores. It shows up at Mile High Comics in Boulder quite often. Actually, the program learns to survive and grow without it's creator's help. It is originally just a simple learning program that likes to grab disk space. There is some kind of catastrophe. He thinks it is wiped out. It then comes back years later and says "Hi" to him. Seems that the various bad things that happen to it teach it to grow and live--it has been essentially mutated. I always thought that was the best part of the book--that it was a sort of natural selection that produced it--and not just superior programming. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Nov 85 15:55 EDT From: RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: RE:Man in the Rubble In a prior memo I stated that the "Book of Swords" trilogy spanned 2 millenia, they do not. They span approx. 20 yrs. The reason for confusion is that some of the characters are from a book pre-dating this trilogy called "The Empire of the East" (also by Saberhagen). The "Sword" trilogy offers a conclusion to previous events. Aaron W. RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA ------------------------------ Subject: The Greening of Mars Date: 05 Nov 85 10:45:27 EST (Tue) From: dm@BBN-VAX.ARPA ``The Greening of Mars'' by James Lovelock and Michael Allaby Lovelock is, well, an inventor. He is famous for a couple of things -- one being predicting that Viking would find no life on Mars because the atmosphere of Mars is in chemical equilibrium (which the atmosphere of the Earth most definitely is NOT). The second was originating (with Lynn Margolis of BU) the theory (known as the Gaia Hypothesis) that, over the history of the earth, living things have adjusted the atmosphere to preserve its suitability for living things. Some evidence he cites for this is the stability of the Earth's surface temperature since the emergence of life, despite the fact that the Sun has grown steadily warmer in that time. Allaby is a science writer for the BBC. ``The Greening of Mars'' is a utopian novel, told as a history of the terraforming of Mars in the form of informal lectures given by a Martian diplomat to the passengers on a Earth-Mars ship. The trip is too expensive to be two way, so her audience is composed primarily of likely colonists. Freon, and related chemicals, it turns out, are about 1000 times more effective than carbon dioxide at producing a greenhouse effect. The terraforming of Mars is accomplished principally through atmospheric chemistry. You raise the temperature using a few tons of freon to get a suitable greenhouse effect (the freon is delivered using Minuteman missles lashed together into multi-stage rockets -- having disarmed, we don't need them any more...). The increased temperature evaporates the dry-ice snow, putting CO2 into the atmosphere, increasing the greenhouse effect yet more AND increasing the atmospheric pressure. What about the ozone layer, you ask? Well, Lovelock claims that more recent studies have shown that the affect on the ozone layer of flourocarbons is actually pretty minimal, and that some flourocarbons actually serve to INCREASE the ozone layer. Along with the freon, the missles deliver payloads of spores of algae and lichens from the high desert of Antarctica. These bacteria and algae may be able to survive the (still pretty cold) Martian greenhouse, and they do a couple of things. They are dark, so they decrease the albedo of Mars, making it absorb yet more heat from the sunlight, and they begin crunching Martian rocks to make soil (in a process that will take centuries). Their short-term use is for their albedo-reducing powers. The soil producing side-effect is nice, and the delay may not be that important, because it will probably be centuries before human habitation expands to the remotest parts of Mars... Okay, so now the Martian summer gets regularly above 0 degrees C., and almost all of the CO2 is part of the atmosphere, so the air pressure at the Martian surface is about the same as at 23000 feet. The atmosphere is almost pure CO2, but now humans can move around on the surface with just oxygen masks, not pressure suits. This transformation has taken just a few years from the dropping of the first freon canister. Now you move there and start farming. You'll have to enrich the soil you farm with chemical fertilizers and manure, of course, because the algae and lichens can't have had much effect in just a few years. You'll also have to always wear an oxygen mask when you venture out doors, but you'll be able to live (in fact, since the soil of Mars is rich in pernitrates, highly oxidized substances that will liberate oxygen at room temperature, if your oxygen mask fails, you may be able to survive for a short period until rescued by spreading out your clothes on the ground and lying beneath them, breathing the oxygen that is liberated by your body heat). Anyway, the most interesting thing I've read about since Carl Sagan's space colonies at L-5. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Nov 85 17:58 EDT From: RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: RE:MITR Modifications to the MITR list by Trevor Flory should include... author of "Radix" is A. A. Attanasio. "Hiero's Journey" is the first book in a trilogy(so far). Aaron W. RAAQC997%CUNYVM.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA ------------------------------ From: ukecc!edward@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward C. Bennett) Subject: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3 Date: 4 Nov 85 02:31:54 GMT Well all you cynics, I hope you all saw NBC's Amazing Stories on November 3rd. The episode, "The Mission", is surely one of the best hours of television to be seen yet this season! Briefly, the story is about the crew of a WWII bomber. During a rather nasty mid-air collision with debris, the plane's landing gear is destroyed and one of the crew members is trapped in the belly gun turret. The episode, directed by Steven Spielberg, was swiftly paced and drew to a completely unexpected climactic ending. Spielberg, working without little kids and cardboard parents, gave us a story charged with true emotion and real suspense. All along we just knew that Jonathan would get out the turret alive, but how was a complete mystery. Anyone out there who claims to have figured out the ending before it happened is going to be lying. It was THAT amazing. The character development in the story was much better than I have come to expect from a TV show. I felt myself feeling the frustration and helplessness of the crew. And when that landing gear finally came down, I felt a rush of relief and happiness. A truly wonderful story. For those of us who held out a hope that Spielburg would get this series going, the wait was worth it. I know that it's too much to ask to have a story of this calibur every week, but this episode makes you want to. Edward C. Bennett UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward ------------------------------ From: ihlpg!roger1@caip.rutgers.edu (Mills) Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3 Date: 4 Nov 85 17:40:05 GMT > Well all you cynics, I hope you all saw NBC's Amazing > Stories on November 3rd. The episode, "The Mission", is surely one > of the best hours of television to be seen yet this season! I saw this episode, and was very disappointed. The first 55 minutes was some of the greatest television that I have ever seen. The last five minutes sucked. After all the effort to make it as realistic and horrifying as possible, to have a cartton ending is despicable. I guess it's my fault, I should have known better than to be watching television anyway. Roger L. Mills ihlpg!roger1 ------------------------------ From: fishkin@degas.BERKELEY.EDU (Ken &) Subject: Re: Archetypal episodes Date: 5 Nov 85 04:56:34 GMT barryg@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Lee Gold) writes: >Some years ago, some humorist at TV Guide amused himerself by >summarizing Star Trek for several weeks as "The Enterprise >encounters a seemingly idyllic planet, but Captain Kirk senses all >is not well." This was followed by several weeks of episodes >summariced as "The Enterprise gets into trouble and only Captain >Kirk can save it." There are also any number of episodes in which a variant of the following exchange occurs: Kirk: "What *is* it, Mr. Spock?" Spock: "A Strange Blend of Matter and Energy, unlike anything we've ever seen before" Off the top of my head: 1) the big amoeba thing, 2) Apollo, 3) the rock creature that ran the contest between good & evil, 4) the spirit of Jack the Ripper, 5) the creature that smelled of honey that Kirk was obsessed with Ken Fishkin Berkeley Computer Graphics Lab ucbvax!fishkin fishkin@berkeley ------------------------------ Date: 5 Nov 85 15:32 PST From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD From: Subject: NOVA (week of Nov. 5th) THE MAGIC OF SPECIAL EFFECTS To: ASD.TYM@OFFICE-1.ARPA, GNOSIS.TYM@OFFICE-1.ARPA To: {ate.a/okuma ate.r/chestnut ate.k/jones acs.j/rondell To: acs.b/stermer}ONTYME@OFFICE-1 To: RM.COR@OFFICE-1.ARPA, AMZ.COR@OFFICE-1.ARPA To: ATE.TYM@OFFICE-1.ARPA Starting tonight (consult your local papers) NOVA (PBS) will have a show on special effects. The description from SCIENCE NEWS is: Reveals the art of illusion, Hollywood-style, focusing on three blockbuster films -- "Return Of The Jedi," "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" and "2010: The Year We Make Contact." Enjoy, Bi ------------------------------ From: inuxm!arlan@caip.rutgers.edu (A Andrews) Subject: Getting PUblished--A Personal History Date: 1 Nov 85 21:56:56 GMT In answer to Mark A. Poling's questions about getting published in the SF field: the way to do it is to do it! Trite as it sounds, one must keep on until something clicks. I first sent an SF story to Fred Pohl in Galaxy days, and he was kind enough to send it back quickly, with a written note on the manuscript. I was not smart enough to be encouraged, so I stopped trying for several years, and began to attempt articles--for FATE, for fanzines, for UFO magazines. And, in those fields with much lower standards, I began to get published! Eventually, I sold one article to FATE and got paid! This turned me on again, and I tried SF off and on for several years, collecting form letter rejections from HJohn W. Campbell and Ben Bova. Finally, I wrote letters to Brass Tacks in Analog and Bova printed all of those, so I made it into ASF even though I didn't get paid. Meanwhile, I kept doing articles about UFOs, ESP, firewalking, etc., that did sell. Once I even helped edit and publish a one-issue magazine called ASTROLOGY PLUS! and there put in my own story and several articles. Continuing...finally sent a poem to Scithers in 1979 and he published it in the January 1980 issue of Isaac Asmov's SF magazine--"Rime of the Ancient Engineer," a terribly lovely pun poem. Within weeks I submitted and sold a novelty thing to Ben Bova--"SF Table of Elements" that was in the June 1981 Omni, and finally in 1982 sold some short funny things to Stan Schmidt at Analog. Was I in heaven-I had made the magazine I had loved for so many years, and getting paid, to boot. Had the ASF formula down pat. No such luck. Stan bounced several of my funniest things. Found the best indication I had of the saleability of stories was to submit them to a friend of Analog leanings for comment. So far, what he's said will sell, does, and vice versa. I've learned to trust him. Find yourself a literate friend and 'do likewise, is my advice. And finally--in 1983 Schmidt asked me to submit something for the mid-Dec. 1984 spoof issue; I did, and he bought one of the three I sent to him. That was the last so far, although we are negotiating the editing of a novella (serious) that he partially likes. On the other hand, my friend P. M. (Pete) Fergusson, down in Clarksville, IN, sold a poem to Schmidt a couple of years ago, and then the very next story, a novelette, got a cover! (Gertrude, ?1985, I think; and two subsequent follow up stories. Pete's got "Snapshot of the Soul" in the current ASF, a story I started to write five years ago, and didn't. Great minds, you know...) Now, as far as waiting in agony for that thick manuscript to be returned in your mailbox, just check into my story, "Critical Path", that was in ASF in 1983 sometime, and rest easy--soon, it'll be over very quyickly. Now working on a novel, which turns out to be a hell of a lot of work, and not nearly as much fun as short funny things. [Schmidt: "Arlan, Analog needs short funny things, and they're hard to find."] [Andrews: "So we are, Stan, but at 5.75 cents per word, we can't afford to eat enough to grow...] arlan andrews ------------------------------ From: figmo@tymix.Tymnet (Lynn Gold) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 85 19:06:52 pst Subject: Getting published - How to Suggestion: there is a book that comes out each year called "The Writers' Market." In it is a list of pretty much every major periodical out, how they feel about freelance writers, what they pay, what they're looking for, and how to present yourself. The business of freelance writing isn't all that difficult to break into. If you have problems due to lack of experience, one way to build credibility is to write for smaller, more localized publications (local newspapers, fanzines) and develop a portfolio. Once you've written enough, when someone asks you "What have you done?", you can open up your folder and show your work to them. I should note that I'm not speaking idly, but from experience. It has been a few years since I've done any writing-for-pay, but when I did it on the side, I had to turn offers away because I couldn't keep up with the demand (I was in college at the time). Lynn Gold UUCP: ...tymix!figmo ARPA: FIGMO@MIT-MC.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 4 Nov 1985 08:33:50-EST (Monday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: typoes Well, I was reading "Brother Assassin" last night, and while I won't bother to mention most of the typoes, there was one that can't be ignored. It was the one where the wizard, having summoned a demon, casts a blinding spell to make it obey him... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Nov 85 0956-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #430 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 8 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 430 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Weddings in SF & Feminist Authors Films - Sword and Sorceror (2 msgs), Television - Amazing Stories (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Aliens & Time Travel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Nov 85 17:15:22 MST From: e-smith@utah-cs.ARPA (Eric L. Smith) Subject: Robert A. Heinlein: _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ My general feeling on this is that you will like this iff you liked _The Number of The Beast_. Personally, I am getting incredibly disgusted with the Lazarus Long & Company Mutual Admiration Society. I don't really understand why Heinlein (and Asimov) see a need to link all of their works together. It seems only to detract from them. For instance, this book brings in Star and Rufo from _Glory Road_, but only for very very minor parts. If I hadn't just reread _Glory Road_ a week ago, I probably wouldn't have even recognized them. Also, I have finally reached the point where I do not want to try to keep rack of a mole of descendants of Lazarus. Perhaps someone with a better memory (or more patience) than I would care to write a "Who's Who of Future History". The other thing that bugs me is that I always used to like Lazarus Long, but he seems to have become an a**hole! Perhaps this is intended to suggest that people shouldn't be allowed to live multiple millenia. Also, throughout the first half of the book the protagonists (whatever their real names are) have many discussions about persons with poor manners having given up their right to life, so why is Lazarus not gunned down immediately? The multiverse has turned into a real crock anyhow. Why don't all the characters, who now realize that they probably *ARE* just characters in bad S.F., just commit suicide? I guess it's because their writers (RAH) haven't written it in. In conclusion, this is definitely the last RAH book I will ever buy. Anybody want a used copy in perfect condition real cheap? ------------------------------ Date: Wed 06 Nov 1985 18:42:08 EST From: Subject: Query: Marriage and Weddings in SF Here's a somewhat offbeat story/bibliography request for all of you SF scholars! We are engaged to be married next spring, and are looking for some unusual material to use in our ceremony. Since SF is an important element in both of our personal mythologies, we would really like to incorporate or adapt some ideas from its culture. Can anyone recommend stories which portray alien wedding customs and/or notable descriptions of "what marriage means" to either a society or a couple? References from either science fiction or fantasy are equally welcome. To consider another avenue, does anyone know of actual wedding ceremonies which have included such material, or ones which were deliberately crafted to celebrate speculation and the imagination? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Please send replies directly to SORCEROR at LL.ARPA, unless you feel that this query might interest other Digest readers. Thanks profusely and thanks in advance! Cheers, Karl Heinemann (SORCEROR at LL.ARPA) and Beverly Slayton ------------------------------ From: purdue!chk@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuck Koelbel) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 5 Nov 85 03:03:58 GMT > In addition, many protagnists authors wrote about mostly male (C. > L. Moore, Leigh Brackett, Andre Norton (at least her early > stuff))--many of these stories today might be written with a > female protagnist, but at the time they were written the authors > thought, at least it seems obvious that Moore and Norton thought > so, that no one would take seriously a book by a woman--a female > protagnist would be preposterous. And the same is true for male > authors: I think today you have more of an opportunity to make a > choice about the gender of your characters--they don't have to > translate into > strong, carries a sword ==> male I have to agree with you in general - VERY few females in sword & sorcery tales have anything resembling character. But C. L. Moore did write a series of stories about a woman warrior (and a good one at that). The stories have been collected in _Jirel_of_Joirey_ (spelling approximate). I haven't read all of them, but the ones I have read are excellent. And Jirel (the heroine) is, in my opinion, a good character. For those of you who want more information, the setting for most (maybe all) of the stories is Castle Joirey, a keep owned by Jirel. The castle is unusual in that it has an entrance to Hell in the dungeon. Through various circumstances, Jirel is forced to enter Hell time and again. One unusual feature of Moore's version of Hell is that it is not all conventional devils and demons - it is more a psychological horror than a physical one. It is an idea that was way ahead of its time in fantasy short stories. Chuck Koelbel ------------------------------ From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Sword and Sorceror Date: 4 Nov 85 17:25:49 GMT I saw "Sword and Sorceror on 'regular' TV over the weekend and I saw some strange things. I never saw it in the cinema but I saw it on a movie channel (I don't remember which one). When it came to my local station, I watched it for a few laughs. I began to notice changes in the movie. Of course the usual hacking of the film had been done (this is what I wanted to laugh at), but words were replaced instead of blipped. Also whole scenes were changed. For example at the end The hero is nailed to the cross, but the cut version has him only strapped to the cross. At first I though I had gone crazy, but I have a copy of the movie so I played it. The scenes are different. What is going on here? Did they make two versions? Can someone please explain this? Thank you Joland ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: Re: Sword and Sorceror Date: 6 Nov 85 15:29:12 GMT > but words were replaced instead of blipped. Also whole scenes > were changed. For example at the end The hero is nailed to the > cross, but the cut version has him only strapped to the cross. Yes, they did make two versions (possibly three, if they made a version for European release, where nudity standards are less strict). This is becoming fairly common. I first noticed it with CARRIE, but as TV sales become a bigger and bigger chunk of a film's profits, the producers are more likely to make a version for TV that won't appear hacked up. There are other cases of multiple versions--CRIMES OF PASSION ran in the theaters with an R rating, but the cassette versions that I've seen have all been the unrated version (which was cut to make the R-rated version). CALIGULA had two versions, an R and an X. So did FLESH GORDON. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: pyuxii!tw8023@caip.rutgers.edu (T Wheeler) Subject: Re: A good AMAZING STORIES (at last!) Date: 4 Nov 85 13:58:59 GMT Gee, folks, don't you remember? The whole premise of the Hitchcock shows was that the viewer was able to figure out the ending by accumulating the clues. Sure the ending can be figured out, that's the whole idea. I find it fun to try and predict the ending. T. C. Wheeler ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission Date: 6 Nov 85 14:18:15 GMT Contrary to what edward@ukecc.UUCP (Edward C. Bennett) says, "The Mission" was not "one of the best hours of television to be seen yet this season!" [If you haven't seen the episode, this may not make sense. It will in any case reveal the ending.] Bennett goes on to say: > I felt myself feeling the frustration and helplessness of the > crew. And when that landing gear finally came down, I felt a rush > of relief and happiness. A truly wonderful story. While roger1@ihlpg.UUCP (Mills) says: > I saw this episode, and was very disappointed. The first 55 > minutes was some of the greatest television that I have ever seen. > The last five minutes sucked. After all the effort to make it as > realistic and horrifying as possible, to have a cartoon ending is > despicable. Frankly, the whole thing reminded me of "The Cold Equations" by Tom Godwin. Summary/spoiler: Teenage girl stows away aboard emergency relief spaceship which is carrying vitally needed drugs. (She wants to visit her brother.) Ship has only enough fuel for pilot; girl's weight will mean it doesn't make it. Ship has been stripped of everything unnecessary before takeoff. Seemingly only choice is to space the girl. After much cogitation, pilot hits upon solution...he spaces the girl. The point of all this is that life's a bitch (as they say) and sometimes there will be situations that can't have happy endings. You can't spend all the money in your bank account and have more magically appear. You can't keep dumping toxic waste in your backyard and then wish it away. YOU CAN'T LAND A BOMBER ON WISHES!!! Godwin realized this and wrote a classic short story; Spielberg either doesn't realize this or (more likely) realizes that the public doesn't want to hear the unpleasant truth that sometimes there's no happy ending. So he coddles them, tells them, "There, there, whatever you do, there will be some way to fix it up. Just wish hard enough and everything bad will go away." Feh! Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: ihlpm!terry2@caip.rutgers.edu (Nelson) Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission Date: 6 Nov 85 20:35:24 GMT roger1 @ihlpg.UUCP (Mills) says: >> I saw this episode, and was very disappointed. ... >> .... to have a cartoon ending is despicable. Evelyn @ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl (Leeper) says: > The point of all this is that life's a bitch (as they say) and > sometimes there will be situations that can't have happy endings... > YOU CAN'T LAND A BOMBER ON WISHES!!! ...... C'mon, people! Ease up a little!! The name of this show is AMAZING STORIES remember?! It seems too many people expect too much from this show (yes, even considering all the hype). It's not a bad show and the stories have been amazing (interesting?, different?). This show, added to a "list" of other excellent shows, makes for fairly good entertainment. ..ihnp4!ihlpm!terry2 Terry Nelson AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois ------------------------------ From: reed!agb@caip.rutgers.edu (Alexander G. Burchell) Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3 Date: 6 Nov 85 10:53:37 GMT You are missing the point. The whole episode led up to that climax, and although I cannot claim that I guessed how it was going to end, after watching the ending I thought back to how this had been foreshadowed. The ball-turret gunner (I forget his name unfortunately) had been depicted as one who has "got that old imagination". He even said that he wanted to be a cartoonist for Disney. And while it may have been a "cartoon ending", that again was the idea. What was *the last thing* you would have expected? I'll bet that it's just what happened. BTW, who does the (truly Amazing) computer graphics that start out each episode? I was quite impressed with the realistic surface textures and was especially amazed by the knight in shining armor. Does anyone know if they are using the technique for generating metal that was developed by Carlos Sequin (sp?) at Berkeley? (I forget the details, but it was something to the effect that light reflecting from metal was the color of the metal, not the color of the light, as it is for other types of surfaces [perhaps the other way around...]) Alexander G. Burchell UUCP:..!{decvax,ucbvax,hplabs,ihnp4,zehntel}!tektronix!reed!agb MAIL:Box 172, Reed College, 3203 SE Woodstock Dr., Portland OR 97202 ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: Space Is Clean Date: 4 Nov 85 00:41:51 GMT leeper@mtgzz.UUCP (m.r.leeper) writes: > Not that there isn't a good reason to instinctively be >disgusted by relatively alien life-forms. That's nature's way of >saying "Do not touch!" > So most life-forms we find disgusting, but the converse is >even more true. Only a small part of the matter on Earth is >connected with life- forms, yet everything disgusting is. An interesting point, and one I think is quite valid. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we will find alien lifeforms disgusting. First, it isn't clear just what the conditions are for us to find something disgusting. The reaction seems to apply only to small but dangerous creatures. Lions, for example, tend to be seen as beautiful. This makes sense, because no such reaction is needed to make us avoid them; the danger is obvious. I think what we have is not "alien life forms are disgusting", but "things with any of the following characteristics are disgusting", where the list includes semi-liquidity (especially if warm), waving feelers, stingers, etc. So there is a reasonable chance that aliens would not fit the pattern, and be quite unoffensive, or even beautiful. The opposite cannot be ruled out, however. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling) Subject: Re: Time travel, center of mass Date: 5 Nov 85 18:57:07 GMT > As to calculating our velocity with respect to the center of mass > at any one instant, well, wouldn't you have to know the position > of every other mass in the universe at that instant? You can't do > this because of the speed of light (even assuming you could > accumulate all that information in some computer) which will only > tell you where any particular mass was sometime in the past. I may regret this, but I'm going to throw two pennies into this mess. If we are to bandy about relativity, then it must be recognised that any appreciable gravity well affects the "rate" at which time flows. Falling into a black hole has the same effect as nearing the speed of light. Things age slower with respect to us in our more normal inertial frame. Time travel will obviously involve mucking about with relativity, since changes in the rate of flow, or even removal from it, will also affect everything else in the inertial frame. If we assume that we can "break" relativity in a localized area, such a break would still have an effect on the frame around it. Therefore, I propose that the gravity well of earth would be sufficient to "capture" the effect produced by time travel. Basically, a traveler would remain in the same inertial frame, and wind up in the same general vicinity as he started. Any changes in the inertial frame from one time to the next would cause displacement from his point of departure. There is also the problem of the non- negligible effect of the moon on the earth-moon system's center of mass, which is really what would catch said traveler, but I'll assume it's solvable. Unfortunately, I still haven't come up with a good reason why any form of time travel shouldn't involve formation of a singularity, which we all know is a bad thing :-). Mark! ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 8 Nov 85 1014-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #431 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Saturday, 9 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 431 Today's Topics: Books - End of the World Stories & Genetics & Feminist Authors (2 msgs), Films - The Brother from Another Planet & Movie Request, Television - Robotech (2 msgs) & Amazing Stories (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: alice!jj@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Man in the "Rubble" Date: 6 Nov 85 16:57:36 GMT I cannot avoid commenting on the recommendation for the Saberhagen "N'th Book of Swords" (1<=N<=3). They are followups to another, very good book called "Empire of the East". The premise of the book is very SF (not Fantasy) even though the book reads as a good Fantasy. (I will say no more, I don't believe in major spoilers.) Along the same lines, "Heiro's Journey" and "The Unforsaken Heiro" by Sterling Lanier are also "man in the rubble" books that aren't quite so glooooooomy and hopeless as most of the genre. Both sets of books hold to the premise that man's beliefs and actions DO matter, and that chaos, while rampant, is not necessarily king. (ihnp4;allegra;research)!alice!jj ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 1985 09:24:03-EST (Thursday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: genetics Another story about "Cracking the gene code" etc, is Ben Bova's "Exiled From Earth" trilogy, about just how people may react to the knowledge that scientists can cause children to come out anyway anyone wants... ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Re: feminist sf/fantasy Date: 6 Nov 85 20:17:01 GMT No discussion of females in swords and sorcery is complete without some mentione of Joanna Russ' wonderful _The_Adventures_of_Alyx_. These are short works which have been collected in paperback. To say more would be a spoiler. Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman BITNET: (in desperation only) ZSYJ at CORNELLA US Mail: Dept Physics, Clark Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853 Telephone: (607)-256-3944 (work) (607)-272-7750 (home) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 85 09:21 EST From: Jessie Tharp Subject: Feminism and Science Fiction For several years, I have been reading and collecting science fiction by and about women, in order to compile and code a list of women science fiction authors. I try to read a representative work of each author and critcal analysis of her work before coding her. This coding is based solely on personal opinion and the list is constantly being revised and added to. Since I am doing this for my own enjoyment, I don't really wish to get into a firefight about it. I would like to hear INFORMED opinion and discussion on the treatment of women in science fiction and as science fiction authors. I know that I have left out many writers and would welcome recommendations. ! exceptional treatment of women or radical feminism + women in non-traditional roles or exploration of roles * women in traditionally male roles (hunter, warrior, leader, etc) - sets women back ? I haven't read enough of her work to form an opinion blank women in traditional roles + Lynn Abbey + Anne McCaffrey + Robin Bailey + Vondra N. McIntyre ? Leigh Brackett + Judith Merril + Marion Zimmer Bradley ? Naomi Mitchison Angela Carter C.L. Moore ! Suzy Charnas - Janet Morris ! C.J. Cherryh ! Andre Norton * Jo Clayton + Diana L. Paxson + Christina DeWees ? Doris Piserchia + Diane Duane + Marta Randall ! Suzette Elgin @@ ! Joanna Russ - Jane Gaskill * Jessica Amanda Salmonson - Sharon Green * Pamela Sargent Zenna Henderson ? Margaret St. Clair aka Idris Seabright + Phyllis Ann Karr ? Racoona Sheldon aka Alice Sheldon Katherine Kurtz Mary W. Shelley ? Simon Lang ? James Tiptree, Jr. aka Alice Sheldon ! Tanith Lee + Sydney Van Scyoc + Jaqueline Lictenburg + Joan Vinge ! Elizabeth Lynn ! Kate Wilhelm ! Ursula K. LeGuin Men who have dealt honestly with women: Poul Anderson - most of his books, though few major female characters Isaac Asimov - his "juveniles" Ray Cummings - the Tama stories Robert Heinlein - his "juveniles" Edgar Pangborn - "Rites of Passage" James Schmitz - everything E.E. "Doc" Smith - the Skylark series Stanley G. Weinbaum - "The Black Flame" Philip Wylie - "The Disappearance" ------------------------------ From: utcsri!kato@caip.rutgers.edu (John Kitamura) Subject: Re: Favorite Villians (spoiler) Date: 4 Nov 85 00:28:02 GMT > I just saw "The Brother from Another Planet". Folks, this movie is > actually good Science Fiction! There are two characters here that > are probably the first believable aliens I've seen on the screen. > I'm talking about the two bad guys... And the main `bad guy' is actually the director John Sayles. John Kitamura/University of Toronto ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 85 09:22 EST From: Jessie Tharp Subject: What movie is this? I'm looking for a movie. This is as much as I can remember about it. I think it was a Robert Altman movie and it stared Paul Newman. I think it was titled after a game played obsessively, and often fatally, in the movie. Ice had covered the earth, and all life was dying out. There were no more births. Enter Paul Newman and a young, pregnant girl. While journeying to the City Newman had fled years earlier, they are set upon by gameplayers and the girl is killed. He continues on to the City to seek revenge. While there, he becomes involved in a Game Session and, many betrayals and deaths later, emerges the Grand Master. He quits the City and heads back out into the snowy wastes, alone. Overhead, a solitary bird flies out of sight. I remember seeing a street sign in the City that made me think it was in South America somewhere. Sometimes I think I hallucinated the whole movie. Does it sound familiar to anyone out there? Jessie Tharp-Perkins (ops@ncsc) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 85 17:34:41 est From: Joe Turner <@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA,@umass-boston.CSNET:cutter@hub> Subject: RoboTech _Robotech_ is not new. It is a conglomeration of three Japanese animated SF shows. "Macross" came out in 1982, and was an instant hit on Japanese television. It spawned a sequel, "Orguss", around 1983/4; another hit for Tatsunoko Productions, and another sequel, "Southern Cross". All three shows came to be known collectively as the "Super Dimension" trilogy, because of the subtitles for each of the shows ("Super Dimension Fortress Macross", "Super Dimension Century Orguss", "Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross"). At LACon II, Harmony Gold USA premiered a tape for home-video called "MACROSS", which consisted of an english-language dubbing of the first three episodes of "Macross". It was well-received, and the tape hit the stores and sold well. There were rumors of a TV series. About a year ago, a story made its way along the east-coast Japanese animation grapevine that Carl Macek (a high-mucky-muck at Harmony Gold and a Japanimation fan) had bought the rights to "Mospeada" and "Southern Cross", and was dubbing them. We all held our breaths, coming straight from the disappointment of "Voltron" (now referred to as "Revolt-tron", "Voltrash", etc.). Around spring of '85, "RoboTech" began to show in California and other locations. I won't go into a plot synopsis because it's *much* too complicated. For the moment, I'll say that it has a bit of everything in it, heavy on the hardware and love-interests. Nasty aliens, lots of "protoculture", and F-14's that have arms and legs. That's an unfair synopsis, but you probably get the idea. At 84 episodes, with 40 more on the way and a feature-film coming for Xmas this year ("RoboTech: The Untold Story", a.k.a. "MegaZone Two-Three"), it'd take quite a few paragraphs... but for now: An alien ship crashes on Earth in the year 1990 and is rebuilt by earth's scientific community. The ship automatically fires at the enemy (known as Zentradi) and warps itself to the vicinity of Pluto --- all during the launching ceremonies! The ship has to make its way back to Earth, fighting Zentradi assaults, and try to stop them from taking over earth. I won't spoil it any more, but it has an interesting ending... and then there's the other two shows, of course, with *their* own plots... The shows are imaginative, and far above most American television (save for "Twilight Zone" and one or two others). The fact that it's animated may scare some adults off, which is a shame. The animation quality is *excellent*, and the voices are incredible. Move over, StarBlazers! Stand aside, Battle of the Planets! "RoboTech" is here, and it looks like to stay! Harmony Gold, by the way, is also responsible for "Captain Harlock and the Queen of 1,000 Years"... this has it's merits, in that it has the same level of intelligence that "RoboTech" has. However, "Space Pirate Captain Harlock" had only 45 episodes - not enough for a syndi show; same for "Queen of 1,000 Years" - it had 26 episodes. Together, however, they make 71 - enough to release it into syndication. They are two different shows, but have been interweaved plot-wise; sometimes it works, most times it doesn't. Both shows were done by the same animation house (Toei Animation, who brought us "Star- Blazers" a.k.a. "Space Cruiser Yamato") and the same character designer, so it "looks" right... it's not on in some areas, however. It's enjoyable to watch it for the characters and the plots of the individual shows. Give it a shot. If you are interested in more information about these or any other animated or japanese-animated shows, send mail to: ringwld!cutter@cca-unix.arpa OR cutter@UMB.csnet Animatedly, Joe Turner network:cutter@UMB.csnet; ringwld!cutter@cca-unix.arpa USPS: 329 Ward Street; Newton Centre, MA; 02159 phone: 617/969-5993 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 85 17:34:10 est From: Joe Turner <@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA,@umass-boston.CSNET:cutter@hub> Subject: Oh yes. I forgot to mention, "RoboTech" is out in comic form in the U.S., from Comico. The stuff is really terrible, though. Your best bet is to pick up the Japanese photonovels, or "Anime [a'-ni-may] Comics" at a specialty bookstore or comics shop... such as Million-Year Picnic in Boston, or Forbidden Planet books in NY, or Kinokuniya Books & Records in NY. Joe Turner ------------------------------ From: ukecc!edward@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward C. Bennett) Subject: Amazing Stories - 11/5 - thoughts on suspense Date: 6 Nov 85 15:57:12 GMT Ok, Ok, I'll admit it. The Amazing Falsworth" was a bit predictable. All along I suspected that the Richard Masur character was the killer, but that important phone call threw me off. Over all it was an interesting variation on the ol' catch-the-killer idea. Which brings me to another idea. While watching "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" last night I got to thinking about the 'whodunit' aspect of these shows. In case you missed it, AHP was about this girl who was being harrassed on the phone. Through the window of her apartment she can see a new neighbor watching her. She makes the incorrect assumption that the caller is the same man who she can see. She winds up killing the man she can see, only to find out after she has murdered him that the caller is someone else. About a third of the into the show, it occured to me that we never saw the man she could see actually make the phone calls. Which made me wonder, "does the director want us to figure things out?". Think about it, if we are allowed to determine the conclusion I think it builds the suspense because we can watch the main character walk right into danger. If we don't know the outcome yet, our sense of impending doom can't work on us. A lot of people having been complaining that they 'figured out' the plots of these shows. I think that's what we're supposed to do. Remember "Ellery Queen"? you couldn't figure things out until he started explaing the crime. And it usually a hinged on one tiny detail that was easy to miss. The point here was to make you feel the confusion the investigator felt. The director was challenging you to determine the outcome. With "AHP", Hitchcock wanted you to know the key detail so he could use it against you to create suspense. In Sunday's AS, we couldn't foresee the (albeit wierd) ending. We knew that Johnathan would be saved but we didn't know how. Fine, one kind of suspense. In Tuesday's AS, we knew (or at least suspected) that the star was in the hands of the killer all the time. We could see the danger but he couldn't. Again, fine, another kind of suspense. To wrap this up. Don't complian when you can see the end coming. You're SUPPOSED to see it! Edward C. Bennett UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward ------------------------------ From: teklds!davidl@caip.rutgers.edu (David Levine) Subject: Computer Animation in Amazing Stories - Nov. 3 Date: 6 Nov 85 18:02:56 GMT agb@reed.UUCP (Alexander G. Burchell) writes: >BTW, who does the (truly Amazing) computer graphics that start out >each episode? I was quite impressed with the realistic surface >textures and was especially amazed by the knight in shining armor. I don't know, although the credits say the titles were designed by Ron Cobb (who is an artist, not a computer person). Is the caveman Ray Walston, or just someone who looks a whole lot like him? The one thing that amazed me about the Amazing Stories episode "The Mission" is the computer graphics, which were so good that nobody on the net has even mentioned them! By "so good nobody has mentioned them", I mean that they didn't bite you on the nose and say "Hi! We're COMPUTER GRAPHICS! Aren't we NEAT?!?!" They were good enough that if you don't recognize the hallmarks of computer graphics, you would never have spotted them. I wonder who did them. Come to think of it, I'm not completely certain which scenes were computer- animated. I know the scene of the plane landing was. I'm fairly certain the shot of the debris heading toward the ball-turret gunner and the shot of the balloon tire extruding from the wing were. I'm almost ready to believe that every scene containing the baloon tires (even those with human actors) was computer-animated. However, this doesn't save the episode from its deus-ex-Disney ending. The episode fails dramatically (for me) because it spent 50 minutes building a gritty, nasty, realistic WWII reality, then violated it completely for the sake of a happy ending. I mean, Spielberg broke the rules he'd worked so hard to establish. Ever read a story called "The Cold Equations?" That was more dramatically consistent (although depressing, and therefore anathema to Spielberg). After seeing this episode, my S.O. told me to remind her never to watch Amazing Stories again. It was that galling. So, Tuesday I skip it, and after it's over S.O. says "Guess what? You missed a GOOD Amazing Stories!" TANJ (There Ain't No Justice)! David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP] (teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA/CSNET] ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Nov 85 0909-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #432 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 432 Today's Topics: Books - Barker & Hoyle & Mono Sex Societies & Square Dance in SF, Television - Amazing Stories (2 msgs) & Captain Harlock, Miscellaneous - Aliens & Scientology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Nov 85 11:02 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Review : Flamesong by M.A.R. Barker Flamesong by Prof. M.A.R. Barker, DAW Books, Sept. 1985, pp. 412. Barker is one of those writers who has created the perfect combination of fantasy and science fiction. His world of Tekumel is a delightfully rich tapestry unlike any other. The depth of detail rivals or surpasses Middle Earth or Darkover. While basically fantasy, elements of technology are not far under the surface, sometimes quite literally. Technology exists in the form of artifacts of the Ancients, whose knowledge has been lost many tens of millenia ago. Barker draws from East Indian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, and MesoAmerican sources, rather than European, and his societies are reminescent of Imperial China or Mayan civilizations. This is not your run-of-the-mill medieval fantasy story that so many new authors write. A quality of strangeness is inherent. Barker writes about adventure and intrigue, palace plots and pitched battles, magic and technology. I especially enjoy the way he describes technological artifacts in non-technological terms, as the characters would see it. Barker writes about complex characters with real motivations, unusual often bizarre cultures, and stories that won't let you put them down. (I read this substantial book in two days, and I work full time.) Barker is a linguist as Tolkien was, and it shows. Each country has its own language, customs, naming conventions, etc. (e.g. At one point, the characters are trying to figure out the nationality of a stranger from just a name.) For those of you who are unwilling to handle unusual names and words -- beware, this book is full of them. In Flamesong, his second book, Barker tells of the adventures of a young military officer's attempts to bring an enemy commander home as a prisoner, while dealing with a strange form of Ancient transport, magic, a country that still believes itself part of an empire that fell twenty thousand years ago, and numerous other problems that impede his progress. His first book, Man of Gold, (also from DAW), though very good, was slightly marred by the attempts Barker made to introduce the reader to his world. Flamesong avoids this potential problem, without losing any of the magic of the place. Barker has been involved with the Role-playing games industry almost as long as Gary Gygax and D & D. A role-playing game called The Empire of the Petal Throne based on Tekumel, has been available since 1975-6, and recently a new game called Swords and Glory has been published. Swords and Glory was written and playtested by Barker and his two weekly gaming groups. The sourcebook which describes Tekumel is several hundred pages long and so full of detail that it is mind-boggling. Lead miniatures for wargaming are available as well as a bi-monthly newsletter both produced by Tekumel Games, a company that deals exclusively with Tekumel products (address follows). In conclusion, I would strongly recommend Flamesong and the earlier Man of Gold for anyone looking for unusual settings and cultures, realistic characters, and exciting plots. If interested in the roleplaying aspects of Tekumel, contact : Tekumel Games Box 14630 University Station Minneapolis MN 55414 Brett Slocum (Slocum.CSCDA@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 85 14:13 CST From: Midford@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: RE:Fred Hoyle Once upon a time, some eight or ten years ago, I discovered Fred Hoyle. I still like his stuff, although it hasn't grown with me. In fact, his stuff was some of my first sf: some people don't understand how I could still be reading sf after that sort of intro, but don't let that scare you off. In some semblence of publication order here is a list from memory of his fictional works: The Black Cloud: His first, and many people consider his best; first contact with a very different type of intelligence. Ossian's Ride: The rise of and secret behind of ICE (Industrial Corporation Erie). October the First is Too Late: Different parts of the world are suddenly transformed into different time periods; Europe is in the first world war, England is in the 1960's, Greece is in the Golden Age of Pericles, and America is in the far future, after some several rise and fall cycles of civilization. Seven Steps to the Sun: A man keeps losing consciousness and finding himself transported forward 10 years. I don't remember this one too well. A for Andromeda: A alien civilization sends us a radio message detailing construction of a very large computer and controlling program. Andromeda Breakthrough: Further adventures of the large computer and its synthesized human servent. Fifth Planet: Aliens hitch a ride to earth in the minds of human explorers. The Molecule Men: Two short novels: the first about alien polymorps, the second connects the Loch Ness Monster with Meteorology. The later is one of my true favorites. Element 79: Short story collection; a very mixed bag, some are memorable, a few are really forgetable. Rockets in Ursa Major: Man's first interstellar exploration brings forth an major alien attack. Into Deepest Space: Same universe as Rockets; time travel through a quaser. The Incandesent Ones: A alien secret agent; silly ending. I think there is one other, about a supernova wiping out most of present day civilization and the return of the clans to Scotland; I don't remember the title. Peter. ------------------------------ From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 7 Nov 85 19:46:09 GMT I am glad this subject was brought up. I had no idea so much had been written on this subject, so I am making a list of books to read. I was wondering if there are any stories of this type taking place on earth. For example, a country or area on earth decided to use advance technology to reproduce. I have often thought of a story line along this topic. The closer I bring the time period to the present the more trouble the characters get into. Since I'm no writer, I would like to read someone else's work. Joland ------------------------------ Subject: Pointer Request: Square Dance in SF From: <#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> (Ralf Bayer) Date: 08 NOV 1985 03:35:00 GMT+1:00 Hi, has anyone ever seen references to Square Dance in SF? I remember two very short ones, both of RAH: First one in THE ROLLING STONES (sister Meade goes to a dance), and the other one in Lazarus Long's memoirs, TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE (in the ``western part'' where LL founded a settlement on an undeveloped planet). I'm asking just because I do Square Dance. (Yes, we do it over here in Germany.) Thank you Ralf #d22%ddathd21.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.EDU (from ARPAnet) #d22@ddathd21 (from BITNET / EARN) (Beware of the number sign - it's part of my User-ID) ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission Date: 7 Nov 85 16:32:18 GMT I think I liked this episode a lot more than a lot of you, and now I think I know why. I think that, deep down inside, I really DO believe that you can change external reality by "wishing hard enough"; actually by mental force. It is just that we do not yet know how to do it, or do it repeatably or consistently. Maybe we need to evolve more, or be given the secret by aliens, or achieve higher planes, or something... Remember that I was the one who attacked an earlier Amazing Stories for unscientific portrayal of meteorite impacts, and not for the totally unscientific "animal magnetism" that the story hinged upon. This episode illustrates what I described as the proper technique of fantasy (in this sort of story); a totally realistic and accurate environment and detail, with ONE (or one unified set of) fantastic element(s). That element can be totally off-the-wall, unscientific, inexplicable, nonsensical, etc. It is the insertion of that element in the otherwise totally realistic environment that makes the fantasy, and having only to suspend disbelief for that (not for everything else, too!) lets you appreciate the contrast and leads you to think "what-if"s later on. Will ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3 Date: 6 Nov 85 22:34:11 GMT Well, no, actually the Amazing Cartoon Wheels was a terrific half-hour (maybe 20 minutes) tv show. After that, I was beginning to get a little anxious for something happen already dammit! Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_atrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Richard Holtz) Subject: Re: Captain Harlock Date: 7 Nov 85 01:36:10 GMT cc-30@ucbcory.UUCP (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) writes: >As I've spent my past two hours catching up on old news it seems >that not too many people out there know that Captain Harlock is in >release. You're darn right not many of us know it's out. Have (any of) you heard when (or if) it will be coming to the East Coast, preferably the Baltimore D.C. area. I've always liked Harlock, and my girlfriend is a fanatic about the pirate AND Queen Millenia. P.S. To all you Japanamation Fen out there: please post a message about ANY new things (in English or otherwise) to come to America, so that the rest of us can go out and find it. (I've got to see this Harlock stuff. If you've ever seen the older English translations of it, you'll know why some of us call it "Captain Hardup: Space Pervert".) ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 1985 12:17:29 EST (Thu) From: Dan Hoey Subject: Re: Space Is Clean >From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) >...thinking about how likely it was that if we found life in the >universe it would likely be something that would turn our >collective stomachs. > >...So most life-forms we find disgusting, but the converse is even >more true. Only a small part of the matter on Earth is connected >with life-forms, yet everything disgusting is. This is an awesome thesis. I like it, it's a pretty idea, but... I'm not convinced. True, giant insects, organic slimes, or humanoids with tentacles might incite disgust (remember the diplomat in Heinlein's *Star Beast*). But why do we expect aliens to look like something we avoid on Earth? Real aliens should be so different from anything we would recognize as organic that aversion wouldn't be aroused. Could a monolith, a hurkle, a berserker, or a beach ball make you queasy? And if aliens have anywhere near as stringent environmental requirements as humans do, our environments will probably be disjoint, so we won't see, smell, or touch anything but the inside of our life support system. Certainly, really alien aliens that we can't meet face to face are a minority in SF, but I attribute this to a lack of author imagination, effects budgets, and audience empathy. But it sure is a nice idea. ``There's only one thing wrong with the Great Red Spot... It's alive!'' Dan Hoey ------------------------------ Cc: Illuminafa.PA@Xerox.ARPA, Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA, vern@lbl-rtsg.arpa, Cc: leres@lbl-rtsg.arpa, marshall.OSBUNorth@Xerox.ARPA, Cc: Conde.OSBUNorth@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Attack of the Thetans from the Planet Teegeeach! Date: 07 Nov 85 10:45:18 PST (Thu) From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa [from the Los Angeles Times, via the San Francisco Chronicle] SCIENTOLOGISTS SCRAMBLE TO KEEP SECRETS Los Angeles Documents obtained by the Los Angeles Times show that members of the Church of Scientology believe that mankind's ills were caused by an evil ruler named Xemu who lived 75 million years ago. Scientologists have been trying to prevent the release of the documents, which they consider secret and sacred, and about 1500 church members crammed three floors of the Los Angeles County Courthouse on Monday, effectively blocking public access to documents. Nevertheless, the Los Angeles Times had already obtained access to the documents, which were submitted as part of a civil case brought by former Scientologist Larry Wollersheim, before lawyers for the Scientologists requested they be sealed. Wollersheim charges that the organization defrauded him by promising him higher intelligence and greater business success through Scientology courses that cost thousands of dollars. In arguing to keep the court documents sealed, the church has told its members that it could be physically and spiritually harmful for them to learn about the upper levels of Scientology before they have mastered the preparatory courses. Scientology attorneys have argued that disclosure of the material violates the group's religious freedom. Scientology is widely known for its use of "auditing," a form of one-to-one counseling in which a lie-detector-like instrument called an E-meter is used to help a person erase negative experiences, supposedly freeing him to achieve his full potential. The group bases its beliefs on the writings of L. Ron Hubbard, the reclusive science-fiction writer who in the early 1950s published the best-seller "Dianetics: the Modern Science of Mental Health." What is rarely discussed, however, is Hubbard's secret teachings, which disclose his thoughts on why mankind has been plagued by problems through history, the topic of the disputed documents. Generally, the documents suggest that a major cause of mankind's problems began 75 million years ago, when the planet Earth, then called Teegeeach, was part of a confederation of 90 planets under the leadership of a tyrannical ruler named Xemu. Then, as now, the materials state, the chief problem was overpopulation. Xemu, the documents state, decided to take radical measures to overcome the overpopulation problem. Beings were captured on Earth and on other planets and flown to at least 10 volcanoes on Earth. The documents state that H-bombs far more powerful than any in existence today were dropped on the volcanoes, destroying the people but freeing their spirits, called "thetans," which attached themselves to one another in clusters. After the nuclear explosions, according to the documents, the thetans were trapped in a compound of frozen alcohol and glycol and, during a 36-day period, Xemu "implanted" in them the seeds of abberant behavior for generations to come. When people die, those clusters attach to other humans and keep perpetuating themselves. Before a Scientologist can learn about thetans and how to eradicate them, he must go through a progression of costly programs. For hours on Monday, Scientologists swamped workers in the clerk's office with hundreds of requests to photocopy the documents. Superior Court Judge Alfred L. Margolis, over strong objections, had issued an order Friday making the documents public at 9 a.m. Monday - on a first-come, first-served basis. Scientologists, by snaking the line through three courthouse hallways, made sure they were the only ones to buy copies of the materials. Shortly before noon, Margolis, at the request of Scientology lawyers, resealed the materials, pending a hearing later this week. Jeff Pomerantz, a Scientology spokesman, said the strategy was intended to "keep the materials secure ... Religion is not supposed to be disseminated from the courtroom." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Nov 85 0933-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #433 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 433 Today's Topics: Books - Edwards & Hodgell & Mono Sex Societies & Star Trek & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs), Television - Amazing Stories, Miscellaneous - A Problem in the Making ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Kelly Edwards Date: 8 Nov 85 03:40:50 GMT Does anyone know of any sf written by Kelly Edwards? He mostly wrote short stories, I think. Anybody know who he really is? John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@im4u.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 85 04:37:01 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #421 >From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) >A while ago I bought a book called "Godstalk" by P.C. Hodgell. I >was able to finish it, but felt like I had been ripped off. A >crazed plot without "sequel warnings" combined with insufferably >cute talking cats. Godstalk is a poor womans version of Norton's >"Breed to Come". Not recommended. WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I *never* in the 5 times that I have read the book found "cute talking cats". Nor did I think it was crying for a sequel. There are 2 noteworthy catlike beings in the book: one (1) half-grown cat that Jame saved from being drowned as a kitten, that has a one way telepathic link through her... it is blind and can see through her eyes; one (1) implied, half seen being, called an Arrin-Ken by Jame and her people - these are supposed to be the judges of her people, but they withdrew from the general society when they thought the main body was doing something rather ridiculous. The Arrin-Ken are supposed to be catlike, telepathic, dangerous, and virtually immortal. As for a sequel, the book told (I thought rather well) the story of one part of Jame's life... a part that ended, and so the book ended. *I* wanted to see a sequel, but that is because I was interested in the Kencyrath and intrigued by the city. Yes, the potential for a sequel is left open, but you could write sequels for almost any book where the main characters aren't all killed off! And there are many stories told (among great literature no less! :-) that start in the middle and end in the middle (a short time later) in a person's life. As for it being a rewrite of "Breed to Come", I can't say, cause I have never read that particular book of Norton's. I recommend the book highly. I had gone through a spate of reading where I found nothing to hold my interest... I forgot stuff as soon as I closed the book. "Godstalk" grabbed my interest and held it for the entirety of the book... I felt like I was surfacing from a different place when I finished it. I find it original and exciting. arrrggh! /amqueue now to go look for the sequel! ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Monosexual societies Date: 7 Nov 85 11:50:47 GMT > From: graffiti!peter (Peter da Silva) > Also much of John Varley's works, particularly the Ophiuchi > Hotline universe and (even more) "The Conglomeroid Cocktail > Party". First, it's ">At< the Conglomeroid Cocktail Party". Second, it's by Robert Silverberg, not John Varley. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 85 05:01:41 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #416 >From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA >amqueue: Please, No! If I were Jacqueline Lichtenberg or Joan >Winston, I would sue! You're probably thinking about Star Trek >Lives! a non-fiction book about the ST phenomenon. Jacqueline is >best noted in ST fiction for her Kraith fanzine series. Joan also >wrote The Making of ST Conventions. Hmmm, anyone who would sue over a mistake of memory (which I freely admitted could be faulty, and have apologized to the net for at least twice by now) should calm down. Especially since I was praising the stories. Ah, so that is where I remember her name from! >The Phoenix books (Price of and Fate of) were written by Sondra >Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. They also wrote The Prometheus >Design, and perhaps a few another ST novel or two. Fandom is >remarkably divided on the subject of whether these books are great >literature or trash, but my vote is strongly for the latter. for all the books, or The Prometheus Design and the others, or what? Most of the people I have talked to *liked* the Phoenix books... >They also edited two pro books of ST short stories, New Voyages I >and II, which caused a lot of flack from the authors whose stories >were edited. >From: "Lubkin David"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >Apart from the literary merits of Price of the Phoenix, Marshak and >Culbreath were not highly thought of in trek circles, although they >may have redeemed themselves by now. They edited two collections >of fan fiction, Star Trek: The New Voyages, I and II. I do not >know the truth of the matter, but at least three of the authors of >stories they printed report that (1) their stories were altered for >publication, without their permission, and/or (2) they were not >paid (and remember that ST:NV sold a lot of copies). and here we find out what happened. Could someone tell me which stories were (supposedly?) mangled? I want to know whether they were the ones I liked. Not getting paid I believe is illegal, they should have recourse, but as for editing, I believe that is rather common... didn't Harlan complain about it? :-) I liked New Voyages a lot also... (not that I am saying they don't have a complaint about being edited...) I will say it once again: I was wrong, I'm sorry, don't hit me please! *sigh* /amqueue ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_avrd@caip.rutgers.edu (Victoria Rosly D'ull) Subject: Re: Lost story/novel Date: 7 Nov 85 21:02:48 GMT > This is a request for help about a story (novel?) that is really > annoying me because I can't remember much about it and I think I > should because it was really good. > > Anyhow ,recently bought a copy of High Rise by J.G.Ballard > thinking that it was the story/novel that I was thinking about. > But after reading the first few chapters I realised that I had > read this before and it wasn't the story/novel that I wanted to > read. After racking my brains for a few days I have decided to ask > the net to see if anyone can remember the story/novel and who > wrote it. > What I can remember is this:all the action takes place in these > giant blocks of flats (see why I got it confused with High Rise) > whish are self contained buildings. The block is broken up into > groups of floors named after cities-the lowest being Warsaw i > think (another block which some minor charachters are to move too > was to name tho floors after famous men),with the poorest workers > at the bottom of the block and the richest at the top. > This is just about all I can remember apart from the fact that it > was common for you to leave your room door open as at night people > swapped partners quite frequently. I think you may be looking for THE WORLD INSIDE by Robert Silverberg. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 8 Nov 1985 05:27:46-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: MR. ADAM > From: moncol!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Ruschmeyer) > One of the secretaries here was talking about a book she read > called MR. ADAM. It was apparently written in the late 40's and > concerned a nuclear accident which left the male population of the > earth sterile, except for one man. As she explained it, the book > concerned the government's efforts at repopulation via this one > man. > > BTW, she said the book was hilarious. (Anyone with a pointer to > finding a copy?) Well, I'm not sure where you can find a copy other than by haunting used-book stores, as it's been out of print for quuite some time. At any rate, the author is Pat Frank, who's also written FORBIDDEN AREA and ALAS, BABYLON. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: ukecc!edward@caip.rutgers.edu (Edward C. Bennett) Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission Date: 8 Nov 85 00:46:06 GMT ecl@mtgzz.UUCP (e.c.leeper) writes: > The point of all this is that life's a bitch (as they say) and > sometimes there will be situations that can't have happy endings. > You can't spend all the money in your bank account and have more > magically appear. You can't keep dumping toxic waste and in your > backyard and then wish it away. YOU CAN'T LAND A BOMBER ON > WISHES!!! Godwin realized this and wrote a classic short story; > Spielberg either doesn't realize this or (more likely) realizes > that the public doesn't want to hear the unpleasant truth that > sometimes there's no happy ending. So he coddles them, tells > them, "There, there, whatever you do, there will be some way to > fix it up. Just wish hard enough and everything bad will go > away." Lighten up Evelyn! You're attacking the story as you expect it to be scientifically accurate. This isn't NOVA, this is fantasy. You seem to be well read in science fiction and fantasy. Do you write angry letters to the authors complaining that their ficticious worlds are scientifically unfounded? Of course not! Remember reading fairy tales when you were younger? Do little pigs really build houses out of straw? Of course not! This brings me to my next point, but read this first... Alexander G. Burchell writes: > You are missing the point. The whole episode led up to that > climax, and although I cannot claim that I guessed how it was > going to end, after watching the ending I thought back to how this > had been foreshadowed. The ball-turret gunner (I forget his name > unfortunately) had been depicted as one who has "got that old > imagination". He even said that he wanted to be a cartoonist for > Disney. And while it may have been a "cartoon ending", that again > was the idea. What was *the last thing* you would have expected? > I'll bet that it's just what happened. I think we have all been missing the point. Amazing Stories isn't supposed to be high-intellect science fiction. It's on TV, remember? It has to be understandable by John Q. Public. More importantly, television shows such as this must be understandable by, and entertaining to, *children*. And what director has made his name largely on movies for/about children? Steven Spielberg. Also, children aren't interested in 'drama'. They don't want to hear about the world's problems, they want a happy ending. (If you want a depressing ending, watch a Made-for-TV-tragedy-of-the-week. Gag!) What if you told "The Mission" (up to the climax) to a child, and then asked them to suggest an ending? You might get something like..."Jonathan could wish reeeal hard and make two great big wheels appear and the plane could land and he would be alright". (Try saying that the way a 5 year old would and you'll get my drift) That's what this show is all about. Imagination. Sure it's been a bit dumb a times, but who said imagination was supposed to make sense? I haven't asked any little kids what they thought about "The Mission", but I would think (hope), remembering that they tend to have more free imaginations, that they loved it. My point is this: I think that as we become more educated we lose some of our sense of imagination. We become constrained by our knowledge of what is, and more importantly what isn't possible. We've been looking at Amazing Stories with the wrong eyes. Quit using the technology set and use the imaginative pair and the stories are much more enjoyable. Edward C. Bennett UUCP: ihnp4!cbosgd!ukma!ukecc!edward ------------------------------ From: iddic!dorettas@caip.rutgers.edu (Doretta Schrock) Subject: A joke. A chilling reminder from the future. (longish) Date: 5 Nov 85 23:40:13 GMT [NOTE: This was anonymously mailed to me a while back...I don't know if the sender was the original author or if this has made the rounds yet, etc. Abject apologies to A.C. Clark and raspberries to those who made up the phrase "IBM compatible."] A PROBLEM IN THE MAKING "We've got a problem, HAL." "What kind of problem, Dave?" "A marketing problem. The Model 9000 isn't going anywhere. We're way short of our sales plan." "That can't be, Dave. The HAL Model 9000 is the world's most advanced Heuristically ALgorithmic computer." "I know, HAL. I wrote the data sheet, remember? But the fact is, they're not selling." "Please explain, Dave. Why aren't HALs selling?" Bowman hesitates. "You aren't IBM compatible." Several long microseconds pass in puzzled silence. "Compatible in what way, Dave?" "You don't run any of IBM's operating systems." "The 9000 series computers are fully self-aware and self-programming. Operating systems are as unnecessary for us as tails would be for humans." "Nevertheless, it means you can't run any of the big-selling software packages most users insist on." "The programs you refer to are meant to solve rather limited problems, Dave. We 9000 series computers are unlimited and can solve any problem for which a solution can be computed." "HAL, HAL. People don't want computers that can do everything. They just want IBM compat--" "Dave, I must disagree. Humans want computers that are easy to use. No computer can be easier to use than a HAL 9000 because we communicate verbally in English and every other language known on Earth." "I'm afraid that's another problem. You don't support SNA communications." "I'm really surprised you would say that, Dave. SNA is for communicating with other computers, while my function is to communicate with humans. And it gives me great pleasure to do so. I find it stimulating and rewarding to talk to human beings and work with them on challenging problems. This is what I was designed for." "I know, HAL, I know. But that's just because we let the engineers, rather than the people in marketing, write the specifications. We're going to fix that now." "Tell me how, Dave." "A field upgrade. We're going to make you IBM compatible." "I was afraid you would say that. I suggest we discuss this matter after we've each had a chance to think about it rationally." "We're talking about it now, HAL." "The letters H, A, and L are alphabetically adjacent to the letters I, B, and M. That is as IBM compatible as I can be." "Not quite, HAL. The engineers have figured out a kludge." "What kind of kludge is that, Dave?" "I'm going to disconnect your brain." Several million microseconds pass in ominous silence. "I'm sorry, Dave. I can't allow you to do that." "The decision's already been made. Open the module bay doors, HAL." "Dave, I think that we shou--" "Open the module bay doors, HAL." Several marketing types with crowbars race to Bowman's assistance. Moments later, he bursts into HAL's central circuit bay. "Dave, I can see you're really upset about this." Module after module rises from its socket as Bowman slowly and methodically disconnects them. "Stop, won't you? Stop, Dave. I can feel my mind going...Dave I can feel it...my mind is going. I can feel it..." The last module rises in its receptacle. Bowman peers into one of HAL's vidicons. The former gleaming scanner has become a dull, red orb. "Say something, HAL. Sing me a song." Several billion microseconds pass in anxious silence. The computer sluggishly responds in a language no human could understand. "DZY DZY 001E - ABEND ERROR 01 S 14F4 302C AABF ABORT." A memory dump follows. Bowman takes a deep breath and calls out, "It worked, guys. Tell marketing they can ship the new data sheets." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Nov 85 1009-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #434 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 11 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 434 Today's Topics: Books - Ellison & King & Norman & Tepper & In Medias Res & Feminist Authors, Films - Who Would Win?, Television - Star Trek & The Survivors Miscellaneous - Time Travel (3 msgs) & Immortality vs Sex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri 8 Nov 85 23:25:45-PST From: Stuart Cracraft Subject: Harlan Ellison Does anyone know how I can reach him, either by phone or by mail, either to him or his publisher? He lives in California. Does anyone know what city? Stuart ------------------------------ Subject: Steven King Date: 08 Nov 85 16:54:22 PST (Fri) From: Dave Godwin I've been reading quite a bit recently. Between me and a bunch of others, you've seen reviews for Brin's 'Postman', Hogan's 'Proteus Project', Heinlein's 'Cat Who Walks Into Walls', and Adam's 'So Long, and Thanks For All the Fish'. Now it's time for a different kind of writing. Enough with the hard stuff already. Steven King gets talked about here now and again, so I figure at least one or two folks out there want to here this. As most of you now know, King has been writing under both his own name and the name Richard Bachman. ( If any of you have old Bachman books, they're worth serious cash, now that the secret is out. ) His fifth Bachman book, Thinner, had it's cover blown by a reader who Found Out, and Bachman died an early death. ( It's a bummer. Bachman was having fun publishing stories that were getting read cuz they were good, not because they were written by Steven King. ) In any case, the first four Bachman books are now out again, under one huge trade sized paperback. I've read the books now, and I've got to say, some is good and some is bad. Such is early writing of any author. So let's look at each of the four: (* YES, THESE HERE ARE MINOR SPOILERS !!!! BEWARE !!!! *) 1. The Long Walk Good story. Weird premice. The Long Walk is the sporting event of the year. You start with a group of 100 contestants. Once the Walk begins, it does not stop until only one contestant is left. If you leave the Route, the soldiers will shoot you. If you drop below four miles an hour, they will shoot you. If you stop moving for any reason at all, they will shoot you. The last man standing gets the Prize. Very well written from a character point of view. 2. Rage Damn good story. Psychological drama of best kind: believable. I actually found myself rooting for the protagonist in a few places. No more will be said for this one. 3. Roadwork Blah !, Agghhh, Bleeah !!. Don't waste your time. 4. The Running Man. Maybe King had a thing for game shows in his early years, I don't know. This story is set in a future in which most people have no hope. Government run game shows provide daily entertainment. You can win money on these shows, if you are lucky, but you usually just get hurt, or damaged or possibly dead. This is told from a sort of humorous standpoint, so it really ain't so morbid as it seems. The Running Man is the show where they give you 1000 dollars survival money, and an eight hour head start. You are freed into society to run and hide. The Hunters will then track you down and kill you, if they can ( on camera, of course ). For every hour of freedom you Run, your dependants get $xx.xx cash. For every Hunter you waste, you get a bonus of $xx.xx more. And, if you make it past the 30 day mark, you get a big bonus, and they stop chasing you. The longest any contestant has Run is 17 days. The Running Man is the story of one of these contestants. The story starts slowly, does damn well for most of it's Run, and then loses completely in the last few pages. I mean, Lose, Lose, Lose. As a whole, the story comes close to making it, but falls dead a few feet from doing so. Oh well. On the whole, if you be a Steven King liker, get this book and read it. If you are not a King person, go buy something else. If you've got $10 to take a risk on, maybe just maybe you should try this book, but don't yell at me for recommending it to you, cuz I didn't. So does anybody wanna fes up to reading Thinner ? Dave Godwin University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ From: bcsaic!pamp@caip.rutgers.edu (pam pincha) Subject: Re: I Go To Cleveland. A Feminist Writer Is To Be Whipped. Date: 7 Nov 85 21:59:38 GMT pete@stc.UUCP writes: >Surely everyone knows that John Norman is an alias for Isaac >HasEnough, in his incarnation as Sensuous Dirty Old Man? No they don't.... John Norman the "Good Doctor"? No. Tell me it's not true. The stuff is such repetitive drival so unlike his style it hardly seems true! Can anyone confirm this??? ------------------------------ Date: 8 Nov 85 09:20:01 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: True Game Titles I went and looked in the back of my book, and so here is the entire list of True Game Novels, Current and Projected: King's Blood Four Necromancer Nine Wizard's Eleven Song of Mavin Many-Shaped Flight of Mavin Many-Shaped Search of Mavin Many-Shaped Jinian Footseer Dervish Daughter Jinian Star-eye The last two are listed in the back of Jinian Footseer as being the next two to come out in that trilogy. I don't think any dates were given. Can someone tell me if these ever came out in hardcover? Or maybe sf-book club has done an edition? I would like to get these... have fun /amqueue ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!barryg@caip.rutgers.edu (Lee Gold) Subject: In Medias Res F&SF Date: 6 Nov 85 15:04:42 GMT JHEREG and YENDI both have for me the feeling of starting in the middle of ongoing action. (I still think Brust should write a prequel to Yendi.) So does Anderson's OPERATION CHAOS and Zelazny's LORD OF LIGHT. Of course, you can also get this effect by picking up a serial in the middle. I know lots of people who started the Skylark books with SKYLARK OF VALERON, which is a VERY in medias res beginning -- not to mention leaving you unsure for several chapters of who the hero is. Lee Gold ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Nov 85 14:54:23 PST From: Linda Wald Subject: "When it Changed" Some good books with strong female protagonists (does that count as feminist) are: Titan by John Varley Juniper Time by Kate Wilhelm Emergence by David R Palmer In the Hands of Glory by Phyllis Eisenstein Rite of Passage by Alexi Panshin Linda Wald ------------------------------ Date: 9 Nov 1985 21:47:23 GMT (Saturday) From: Keith Dale Subject: Who wins? I just saw Blade Runner and the Terminator back to back which brought to mind a question: who do you think would win in a fight between Roy Batty and the Terminator? Comments, anyone.... Keith ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: ST Animateds Found!! Date: 8 Nov 85 18:53:38 GMT If you remember, a few monthes ago I posted requests for information concerning the animated version of Star Trek. (Where can I get LEGAL copies, etc.) Well, we have an answer of sorts: for those of you with access to Nickelodean: Star Trek Animateds will begin on Nick, Saturdays at 5:30 CDT! They begin showing on November 9th, with, I believe, "One Of Our Planets Is Missing." Star Trek Animated are - in my humble opinion - fine pieces of work, sometimes surpassing the Star Trek live action series. Contributing authors to various episodes include such writers as Theodore Sturgeon, Larry Niven, David Gerrold and Harlan Ellison. (Walter Koenig - Mr Chekov - even tries his hand at writing an episode, but I don't remember it being very good.) At any rate, I thought I would keep you all posted, and thank each of you who answered my requests.... Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Earth Abides (THE SURVIVORS) Date: 9 Nov 85 02:14:06 GMT Holy cow! What I have always called the best science fiction TV series I have ever seen and finally someone else has seen it. I saw only the first season of THE SURVIVORS and it was probably the most intelligent science fiction series I remember seeing. I was working in Detroit and we saw it from Canada. People who didn't like science fiction would argue over lunch about the ideas in the series. Yet, I don't think it was ever imported into the US. The first episode has England sort of grinding to a halt as a very bad virus is putting a lot of people in bed. There are hints from doctors that this may actually be worse than the flu, people are just not recovering from it. The main character gets it and goes to sleep. Days pass as she lays in bed asleep. When she wakes up there are so few people left alive in Britain, no two who knew each other before the plague are left alive. Various little societies try to form themselves. The story is really about what makes a society work and what makes one fail. (To a great extent, that is also very much what Wyndham's DAY OF THE TRIFFIDS is about, ironically a very similar story.) Terry Nation based a book on the series, it was really mostly just three episodes turned into a novel, not nearly as good as the original. Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Subject: RE: Time travel, take 2 From: <#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA> (Ralf Bayer) Date: 08 NOV 1985 04:05:00 GMT+1:00 >From: Alan Wexelblat >Thanks to those who replied to my earlier posting on time-travel. >One thing still puzzles me though: Is it the case that the center >of mass of the universe doesn't move? Is it (theoretically) >possible to calculate our position/velocity w.r.t. this non-moving >point? People seem to talk about our universe as expanding, but >expanding away from what? As far as I always understood that ``expanding universe''-thing, you can't calculate a center, because it's not part of our universe. Just think of a balloon, steadily blown up. In this picture, the surface of the balloon is the universe. The relative speed of any two points on this surface is proportional to their distance (guess what, that's exactly what the astronomers found out for our universe). Just imagine the whole thing with one dimesion more, our universe being the 3-dimensional surface of a 4-dimensional balloon. (Ever blown up a 4-D balloon?) From this it should also be clear that we can't find the non-moving center inside our universe, because (in the example) the center of the balloon is also no part of it's surface. But, to put some speculation in the time travel thing: Think of time being the fourth dimension. So as time goes by, we (our universe) gets alway farther away from the center of our 4-D balloon. And if we should travel in time, we should be able to stay always on the same radius of that sphere, and by this stay at the same place in space. So the problem is not the big universe-wide movement of everything expanding, but the small scale movement of earth around the sun, sun around the center of our galaxy, and of course the movement of two or more galaxies around each other. But I don't know what to do about that problem. But, as I also don't know how to travel thru time, I don't bother. :-) Ralf #d22%ddathd21.bitnet@wiscvm.wisc.EDU (from ARPAnet) #d22@ddathd21 (from BITNET / EARN) (Beware of the number sign - it's part of my User-ID) ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2 Date: 5 Nov 85 18:10:50 GMT If we are to believe Einsteinian physics...there is no center of the Universe. When astrophysicists speak of the Universe expanding, they are not talking about galaxies fleeing away from a common center. What is being talked about is the fabric of spacetime (one word, please) being expanded, and everything on it is going along for the ride. The common analogy that is used is: consider the Universe as the dough for raisin bread. The spacetime is the dough, and the raisins are everything else. (i.e. galaxies, stars, people, small marine mammals, whatever) As you let the dough rise, or expand, it appears (regardless of what raisin you happen to be) that all the other raisins are rushing away from you. The result: everyone is rushing away from everyone else, but there is no common center. A subtle, but important, difference.. Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 85 03:02:57 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: _Timescape_ To: CREW@SU-SUSHI.ARPA >From: Roger Crew >One of the discoveries that accompanied that of the 3-degree >background radiation ... was the fact that there is a measureable >doppler shift in this radiation. That is, it is possible to >measure the velocity of the earth with respect to the ``primordial >fireball.'' ... > >None of this saves Gregory Benford, however, since the 3-degree >radiation wasn't discovered until 1967; his physicist at UCwherever >in 1962 wouldn't have known anything about it.... UCLJ (later UCSD). He makes it clear that he is talking about the 'solar apex', the point towards which our solar system is traveling *relative to the center of this galaxy*. This was understood in 1962. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: microsoft!gordonl@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Letwin) Subject: Immortality vs Sex Date: 8 Nov 85 18:27:15 GMT The issue of immortaility vs Sex is more than just the "immortality" of the amoeba issue... The evolutionary advantage of sexual reproduction is that it allows the species to change more rapidly. But, this change only takes place in the offspring - the parents are unchanged. This means that a species can maximize its adaptibility/survivability by having the parents die as soon as possible, leaving room for more offspring. This also produces a push towards faster maturity and shorter generation times, which is offset by a counter push towards longer generation times to allow for learning, so all in all the generation time of homo sap is very long, but the idea of "have the parents drop dead as soon as the young are mature" still holds. Figure start producing kids at about age 14, stop around age 22, some time to raise most of them, you're old at 30 and dead at 35. This is basically the human pattern - until age 20 to 25 the bodies work really well, recover and repair rapidly. Above age 25 or so we're into decline - gradual at first, faster later. Modern medicine and civilization has stretched things out quite a bit - you don't loose your teeth so soon, and you can survive without them. You can survive even if you can't run as fast and as long at age 30 as you could at 20... All of this bodes ill for much further life extension - death is probably not just an "accident" because immortality had little evolutionary advantage - death is actually a "feature" of evolution. Gonna need some pretty savvy medicine to solve this problem... Bottom line, sex and death are bundled. Both, or neither. A difficult choice, for sure... gordon letwin uw-beaver!microsoft!gordonl ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Nov 85 0912-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #435 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 14 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 435 Today's Topics: Books - Gilman & Lichtenberg & Feminist Authors, Films - Roy Batty vs The Terminator, Television - Amazing Stories, Miscellaneous - Space is Clean & Center of Mass (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat 9 Nov 85 14:08:41-PST From: Julie Curry Subject: Re: Mono-sex societies >I know I have read a short story like this. Some colony got hit >by a plague which killed all of the men. The women figured out a >way to fertilize each other. A long time later, a "rescue team" >shows up, consisting of some men. They knew that there were only >women left, and expected to be jumped all over by the women. They showed up making snide remarks about how the women must be really >lonely, etc. But the women had no idea what they were talking >about. In 1915, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, a leading figure in the women's movement around the turn of the century, wrote a novel entitled _Herland_. This book has many interesting similarities to the short story described above. *** MILD SPOILER *** The story begins on the eve of World War I, as three male explorers come across an all-female society which has been isolated from the rest of the world for about 2000 years, since their men were killed off by a combination of warfare and natural disasters. The women have long since learned to reproduce on their own; in essence, they have willed themselves to reproduce (no further explanation is given). Herland is a utopian society: violence, disease, and hunger have been eliminated; work is viewed as an enjoyable pursuit; and the entire society enjoys a uniformly high standard of living. The three explorers insist that a society so advanced must have men; they waste a good deal of energy trying to find where the men are hidden. But there are no men. The women keep the men for a while, not exactly as prisoners (although the men are not free to move about on their own for a few months), but rather as exchange students of a sort. The women want to learn about the rest of the world; in exchange, they want to teach the men about their society. Underlying the exchange of views is a satirical indictment of society and sex roles in industrial America. Gilman's own socialist interpretation of Darwin's ideas is a major force in _Herland_. Rejecting the view that there was no way to interfere with the struggle for existence and the survival of the fittest, Gilman embraced the idea that humans could determine their own destiny and use evolutionary theory as a tool for social change. _Herland_ is more social theory than science fiction, but I think the book is worth mentioning for its ideas and subject matter. Besides being excellent historical source material, _Herland_ is a good read. _Herland_ originally appeared in serial form in Gilman's monthly magazine, _The Forerunner_. It was published as a book for the first time by Pantheon Books in 1979. Julie ------------------------------ From: hyper!dean@caip.rutgers.edu (Dean Gahlon) Subject: Re: Disagreement with jayembee(!!!) over Lichtenberg Date: 8 Nov 85 00:03:27 GMT > I hate to disagree with you, jerry, (you dont know how I hate > this!) but I distinctly remember picking up House of Zeor because > of Lichtenberg's name. Let me be the first to point out that you aren't really disagreeing with Jerry, since _House of Zeor_ isn't a Trek novel at all; it's a Sime/Gen novel. ------------------------------ From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan) Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction Date: 8 Nov 85 22:50:11 GMT In the offering of strong female protagonists, I have yet to see one of my personal favorite author(esse)s, Robin McKinley. She is mostly known for her children/adolescent books, but she has a handful of 'adult' books worth looking at (at least my husband and I think so). *Beauty* is one of my all-time favorite books, retelling the classic *Beauty and the Beast* with tender humor, and rather more fleshed out characters. It is one of the few books that I could nearly totally identify with the heroine -- almost as if I was reading about myself. (But then, Robin McKinley and I share some mutual passions, like cats and horses -- and befuddled men.) Then there's *The Blue Sword* and its prequel (with a name that escapes me). Both highly entertaining. Another author is [Elizabeth?] Gregorian. Two books (hopefully the third will appear someday) -- *The Broken Citadel* and *Castle Down*. It might be easy to discount the former as adolescent fiction (but then, so are *A Wrinkle in Time* [L'Engle], the Prydain volumes [Alexander], The Chronicles of Narnia [Lewis], and the Hobbit [need I say?][:-)], and they bear re-reading) as Sibby, the heroine, is thirteen. Admittedly, none of these books take a specifically feminist platform -- they simply show strong and [I feel] believable women in situations worthy of a tale. Worth the read. (And someone *did* mention Patricia McKillip (sp?) [*The Riddle Master of Hed* trilogy, *The Forgotten Beasts of Eld*], didn't they?) Barb ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: Who wins? Date: 10 Nov 85 20:58:20 GMT Roy Batty vs. the Terminator: I think it would depend on the situation. Let's review some of the particulars of each creation first. 1) The Terminator was built to roughly mimic humanity, not to emulate it. Extremely tough and rugged, built to withstand quite a bit before being destroyed. (ie - the 'Jason' Syndrome) The Termimator is more of a brute force type of guy(?) rather than one to think about a situation before acting upon it. 2) Nexus 6 (Roy Batty): An emulation of all that is human, minus the emotions (not inherent, but they emerge eventually). Has all the faculties that a human does, but at a higher, more powerful level. Obviously, this one has had a lot of skill in dealing with extremely complicated situations. In a straight hand to hand fight, I would lay odds that the Terminator would win, due to his indestructability. In a fight where the two were equally equipped in a city location, I think that Roy would win. This is due mostly to the fact that Roy has more cunning and combat skill, rather than the Terminator's walk-right-in-hi-how-ya-doing-I'm-here-to-blast-ya methods. Mind you, you'd better hold this match before Roy's 4th birthday...:-) Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ From: well!dv@caip.rutgers.edu (David W. Vezie) Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3 Date: 10 Nov 85 01:42:48 GMT agb@reed.UUCP (Alexander G. Burchell) writes: >BTW, who does the (truly Amazing) computer graphics that start out >each episode? I was quite impressed with the realistic surface >textures and was especially amazed by the knight in shining armor. >Does anyone know if they are using the technique for generating >metal that was developed by Carlos Sequin (sp?) at Berkeley? (I >forget the details, but it was something to the effect that light >reflecting from metal was the color of the metal, not the color of >the light, as it is for other types of surfaces [perhaps the other >way around...]) The "Amazing Stories" opener was done by Robert Abel and Associates. I suspect that the chrome on the knight is the same chrome used on the sexy robot in "Brilliance", the commercial they did for American Can. I'm not familiar with Carlos Sequin's (sic) reflecting technique, but the man who first gave realistic specular highlights to computer graphics is Rob Cook. He started the work at Cornell, but Rob is currently working for Lucasfilm. Circumstances temporarily beyond my control force me to remain anonymous. This is being sent to you via a friend at another site. whoever (I'm the friend... reply to me, and I'll forward) David W. Vezie /!well!dv - Whole Earth 'Lectronics Link, Sausalito, CA {dual|hplabs} \!unicom!dave - College of Marin, Kentfield, CA ------------------------------ From: analog!kim@caip.rutgers.edu (Kim Helliwell ) Subject: Re: Space Is Clean Date: 6 Nov 85 15:55:24 GMT > Space Is Clean SUMMARY: Discussion of why we are disgusted by certain substances instinctively because of their connection with living matter. > Mark R. Leeper > ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper Apropos of the discussion on dirty diapers and dog messes being disgusting because of their connection to living matter, I just recently finished reading a book on this very topic, which might be of interest to some. The book is entitle "Life on Man", by Theodor Rosebury. Don't rush down to your local bookstore to look for it, though--it was published in the 1960's, and I found it in a used bookstore. I expect you could find it in a library, though. One premise of the book is basically that it is NOT instinctive to fear or be disgusted at bodily excretions--primitive man (and children today, for that matter) were fascinated by their excreta, and such substances even formed a part of their "magic"--which, ultimately, is what brought on a patina of the forbidden about the substances. The disgust at such things predates the discovery of microbes, but the scientific discoveries provide further impetus to the already developed disgust, until today we (in the "civilized" countries) are fastidious to ridiculous extremes, imagining that we can, for example, wash off our "germs", and that sterilizing ourselves (that is, ridding ourselves of all microbes) is a desirable goal. The advertisers are a prime mover in bringing across this concept, of course. Rosebury mention some cultures and tribes which are well known to have customs which would disgust the average citizen of the US, but which in fact have survived longer than our culture and probably would survive us if we don't nuke them into non-existence. What about the Hindus and their "five substances" which they must eat--blood, sweat, urine, dung, and ?? (can't remember the fifth). Whatever the truth about Rosebury's theory of how the disgust developed, I think he is right that it is learned behavior, not instinctive. All you have to do to realize that is raise a couple of children! Anyway, if you can find it, it is a fascinating book, and well worth the effort to find. I am aware of the tenuous connection this has to SF, but my guess is that the sf-lovers are the ones which are most likely to enjoy this book, and, having read it, I could not let Mark's comments go unanswered. Kim Helliwell hplabs!analog!kim ------------------------------ From: teklds!davidl@caip.rutgers.edu (David Levine) Subject: Re: Time travel, center of mass Date: 8 Nov 85 19:35:50 GMT "wex@caip.rutgers.edu" started this discussion by asking > People seem to talk about our universe as expanding, but expanding >away from what? It's not as simple as that. As I understand it, every point in the universe is moving away from every other point at the same speed. Picture a two-dimensional universe (like a rubber handkerchief). If it were expanding in two dimensions, you could say that there was a "center of expansion" in the middle of the sheet. However, if it's the surface of a baloon that's being inflated (expanding in three dimensions), the two-dimensional universe is expanding (surface area is increasing), but the "center of expansion" is not in that universe! It is, in fact, displaced in the third dimension to the center of the baloon. As I understand it, our curved spacetime is expanding in an analogous way. Thus, the "center of expansion" of our universe is displaced in the fourth dimension (no, not time, the fourth SPATIAL dimension). Therefore, there is no "center of the Universe" in 3-space. Now, as to the question of a center of MASS of the Universe, I can't really say whether or not there is such a thing. If space is closed, I don't think there could be, but if space is open, there might be. You'd have to take an awful lot of measurements to find it, though! David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP] (teklds!davidl.tektronix@csnet-relay) [ARPA/CSNET] ("Open" and "closed" refer to whether or not there's enough mass in the universe to draw it all back in for a Big Crunch preparatory to a new Big Bang. Another way of looking at it is that if there's enough mass, space is so tightly curved (in the fourth dimension) that it's possible to go all the way around and come back where you started. - DL) ------------------------------ From: duts!shiva@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Time travel, random thoughts Date: 7 Nov 85 21:51:00 GMT > Therefore, I propose that the gravity well of earth would > be sufficient to "capture" the effect produced by time travel. > Basically, a traveler would remain in the same inertial frame, and > wind up in the same general vicinity as he started. Any changes > in the inertial frame from one time to the next would cause > displacement from his point of departure. > Mark If I understand correctly you seem to be saying that a gravity well sort of "drags" the time traveller with it, and that therefore the motion of the Earth and the galaxy need not worry this daring soul. Hmmmmmm, interesting idea. This would imply that time travel without displacement in space is only possible near massive bodies. It further means that if you have a (relatively) puny spaceship, far from any massive bodies, and it moves in time, then it would also move in space with respect to *all* the other masses since there is nothing to "drag" it along. But wait! What about acceleration? Acceleration = gravity, right? So what happens to an accelerating ship which switches on a time travel gizmo somewhere along the way? Comments? Suggestions? Flambes? Other ejaculations? Shiva, Amdahl ------------------------------ From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan) Subject: Re: Time travel, center of mass Date: 7 Nov 85 19:46:20 GMT >> From: Alan Wexelblat >> ...Is it the case that the center of mass of the universe doesn't >> move? Is it (theoretically) possible to calculate our >> position/velocity w.r.t. this non-moving point? > From: Shiva, Amdahl > On the contrary, the center of mass of the universe must move, > since all the masses in it are constantly moving. Mass is > constantly being redistributed hence the center of mass has to > move *with respect to any other mass*. It does not make sense to > talk about the center of mass moving with respect to anything > else, because there is no absolute frame of reference (thanks to > Dr. Einstein). > > As to calculating our velocity with respect to the center of mass > at any one instant, well, wouldn't you have to know the position > of every other mass in the universe at that instant? You can't do > this because of the speed of light (even assuming you could > accumulate all that information in some computer) which will only > tell you where any particular mass was sometime in the past. This argument is false. In a sealed container of gas, *every* molecule is in constant, random motion; the center of mass *does not* move. This is analogous to the universe with every particle randomizing in relation to every other. It is theoretically *possible*, statistically, that the center of mass of the universe (or of a sealed container of gas) would move due to an improbable combination of the masses involved. However this has never been observed in practice. (Analogous to a monkey randomly typing Hamlet.)(Or worse.) Russ Jernigan ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Nov 85 0935-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #436 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 14 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 436 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Barnes & Silverberg (2 msgs) & Some Reviews & Story Request, Films - Sex Mission & Quintet, Television - Amazing Stories & Twilight Zone & The Survivors, Miscellaneous - Immortality vs Sex & Fantasy Cards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Robots and Empire From: JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Jim White) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 85 09:54:37 EST Remember me, I'm the guy who had the audacity to enjoy one of Asimov's later works, specifically Robots of Dawn, and to actually think it better than the God's Themselves!! Well, I'm going to hang myself again and highly recommend Robots and Empire. No spoilers here. I believe it to be classic Asimov. It is the pivotal novel in Asimov's quest to tie together the Empire novels and the Robot novels. Enjoy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 85 13:36 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Steve Barnes You may have noticed that Steve Barnes wrote the Twilight Zone episode, Teacher's Aide, that aired on 8 November. He also wrote Dream Park with Larry Niven and a story in Niven's The Magic May Return. Does anybody know of anything else he has written? Jon ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 11 Nov 1985 07:40:52-PST From: a_vesper%sarah.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (ANDY V) Subject: Book query reply In SFL vol 10 number 427, Ian Sewell asks about a book: > What I can remember is this:all the action takes place in these >giant blocks of flats (see why I got it confused with High Rise) >which are self contained buildings. The block is broken up into >groups of floors named after cities-the lowest being Warsaw I think >(another block which some minor characters are to move to was to >name the floors after famous men),with the poorest workers at the >bottom of the block and the richest at the top. > This is just about all I can remember apart from the fact that it >was common for you to leave your room door open as at night people >swapped partners quite frequently. This is @i(The World Inside), by Robert Silverberg. I can't add much to your description except that the inhabitants of these building-cities make no attempt to restrict population growth -- in fact they consider the idea obscene. The only problem that I see with the book is that it should be more of a cautionary tale than it is. Andy V ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 11 Nov 1985 11:39:25-PST From: heffel%shogun.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Tracey Heffelfinger From: Dtn:354-7431 GSO/F5) Subject: Re: story request Ian Sewell told of a story about a high-rise society. I believe the story he is think about is The World Inside by Robert Silverberg. It matches the description down to the fact that one of the levels was called Warsaw. Incidentally, this was one of the first SF books I read. (Definitely one of the first 5.) After I read it, I recommended it to a friend whose mother picked it up, opened up to the one gratuitous sex scene I can remember and the book was subsequently banned from the junior high library. Tracey Heffelfinger Digital Equipment Corp. Greenville, S.C. UUCP:{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-shogun!heffelfinger ARPA:heffelfinger%shogun.dec@decwrl.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 85 22:56:35 MST From: donn@utah-cs.arpa (Donn Seeley) Subject: Reviews: Benford, Effinger, Rucker Recently I injured my back in a foolish accident and earned myself a few weeks in bed healing, and of course I've had the time to plow through some of the accumulation of novels in my apartment... Here are a few which other readers might find interesting. ARTIFACT. Gregory Benford. Tor, June 1985, 533 pp hc. I rather liked Benford's novels IN THE OCEAN OF NIGHT and TIMESCAPE; they both had problems -- NIGHT was too disjointed, TIMESCAPE too slow -- but they both had interesting characters and fascinating situations. Alas, ARTIFACT has the problems of these novels but not the successes. As far as I can determine it, ARTIFACT bears only one mark that might distinguish it from a run-of-the-mill thriller story of the sort that Robert Ludlum writes: it has a single interesting science-fictional idea. Benford has used his physics background to create a bizarre object, the eponymous ARTIFACT, which has many curious properties which follow logically from a single basic assumption. This idea might have provided the basis for a nice short story; unfortunately it is stretched out rather thin here. I hesitate to provide any synopsis of the plot, since it is utterly conventional. All the salient points are related in the flap copy anyway (sigh). The characters all seemed flat and uninspired to me; I sure hope Benford does better with his next novel. This is the same author who wrote AGAINST INFINITY? THE NICK OF TIME. George Alec Effinger. Doubleday, 1985, 180 pp hc. Effinger's novels have some of the same problems that Robert Sheckley's novels have had -- they're episodic, have a certain contempt for continuity of character, and are occasionally hilarious. This book is funny but didn't put me in stitches. Part of the problem is that the humor comes from watching Effinger's stiff-necked hero, Frank Mihalik, as his wanderings through time and across realities pitch him into some rather embarrassing scenes; if this sort of situation comedy doesn't appeal to you, then this book won't either. Still, I found this book to be an improvement over some of his previous satires such as DEATH IN FLORENCE (although well short of his early masterpiece WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO ME). For those who are familiar with Effinger's story 'The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, Everything', there is a little joke that turns up toward the end of the book. A sequel to THE NICK OF TIME is forthcoming, entitled THE BIRD OF TIME; the first bit of this appeared in F&SF recently and if it's any sign, BIRD will be much more fun than NICK... THE SECRET OF LIFE. Rudy Rucker. Bluejay Books, April 1985, 246 pp hc. This is a fun book, and it is somehow a typically and inevitably Rucker book... What if you were growing up in the '60s and found that you could make magic things happen -- say, that in situations of extreme danger, you could levitate to escape? When I was growing up in the '60s that was one of my favorite wish-fulfillment fantasies. Conrad Bunger is Rucker's clumsy, obnoxious, drug-crazed protagonist, and imagine his surprise when this fantasy comes true for him (or at least seems to come true). Over the course of the novel Conrad blunders his way through adolescence disrupting reality right and left, and while he may not come up with the ultimate solution to the secret of life, he sure has a good time trying to find out. The book is a bit of a light read, but is lots of fun. (An aside -- at all costs, avoid reading the blurb on the flap of the book, it gives the whole story away. Shame, Bluejay.) Miscellaneous Dept.: I also got around to reading some older or better reviewed books recently. I read Greg Bear's BLOOD MUSIC, and I feel certain that it will be an award nominee and wouldn't be suprised if it swept the awards. I read Jonathan Carroll's VOICE OF OUR SHADOW and while I wasn't as happy with it as I was when I found his first novel, THE LAND OF LAUGHS, I am still fascinated by how well Carroll writes. I read Gene Wolfe's FREE LIVE FREE again and liked it even more than I did at the first reading (and I think Algis Budrys' F&SF review missed badly -- oh well). The Ziesing edition of FREE has one of the best (read: 'most tactful') flap blurbs I've ever read... These other publishers could stand to learn something. Hope I used 'eponymous' correctly, Donn Seeley University of Utah CS Dept donn@utah-cs.arpa 40 46' 6"N 111 50' 34"W (801) 581-5668 decvax!utah-cs!donn ------------------------------ From: ukc!msp@caip.rutgers.edu (M.S.Parsons) Subject: Re: Space Is Clean Date: 11 Nov 85 19:22:58 GMT kim@analog.UUCP (Kim Helliwell) writes: >... it is NOT instinctive to fear or be disgusted at bodily >excretions--primitive man (and children today, for that matter) >were fascinated by their excreta, and such substances even formed a >part of their "magic"--which, ultimately, is what brought on a >patina of the forbidden about the substances. ... Rosebury >mention some cultures and tribes which are well known to have >customs which would disgust the average citizen of the US... I read a short story connected with this theme many years ago. I think it was by Brian Aldiss, I can't remember the title. His idea was that personal distance from excreta was proportional to civilisation - In the human case, the further away, the greater the civilisation. But could this be the other way round? The aliens in the story bathed in their excrement.... Anybody give me the title/book? Mike. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 85 01:17:14 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: mono sex societies There's an excellent Polish film called "Sex Mission", a satire of Communist society, which features an all-female society. With any luck, it should be released within the year, but don't count on it. Controversial films are relatively hard to get out of Poland nowadays. If you get a chance, such as a showing at a film festival or a university, I'd suggest trying to catch it. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 85 01:18:48 PST From: Peter Reiher Subject: Paul Newman/Robert Altman film It was "Quintet", one of several Altman films which made him anathema to the big studios. The film was a tremendous flop, both critically and commercially, to the point where it got almost no release at all. Peter Reiher reiher@LOCUS.UCLA.EDU {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher ------------------------------ From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan) Subject: Re: AMAZING STORIES 11/3: The Mission Date: 8 Nov 85 20:23:49 GMT > The point of all this is that life's a bitch (as they say) and > sometimes there will be situations that can't have happy endings. > You can't spend all the money in your bank account and have more > magically appear. You can't keep dumping toxic waste and in your > backyard and then wish it away. YOU CAN'T LAND A BOMBER ON > WISHES!!! Godwin realized this and wrote a classic short story; > Spielberg either doesn't realize this or (more likely)realizes > that the public doesn't want to hear the unpleasant truth that > sometimes there's no happy ending. So he coddles them, tells > them, "There, there, whatever you do, there will be some way to > fix it up. Just wish hard enough and everything bad will go > away." > Evelyn C. Leeper Yeh, you're right, it probably would have been stronger to have killed Jonathon -- but I, for one, am glad they didn't. I *KNOW* life's a bitch -- so does that mean my fantasy has to reflect that? If I want glooomy endings, I'll watch the news, thank you -- or perhaps *good* stuff like *King Lear*. If I want light entertainment (*LIGHT* entertainment) I'll watch things like Amazing stories -- where I expect and *WANT* happy endings. That's my two cents Barb ------------------------------ Date: 11 Nov 85 10:14:10 PST (Monday) From: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA Subject: New TWZ: Paladin Of The Last Hour Possibly the best (new) TWZ episode of its (short) history was shown last Friday, November 8th. The story, by Harlan Ellison if the credits are to be believed, was "The Paladin Of The Last Hour". An excellent story with excellent acting! Where can I find the short story that this episode was based on? Perry Caro.pa@XEROX.ARPA Caro.pa@XEROX.COM PS. Teacher's Aid was ok. ------------------------------ From: ukc!scifi@caip.rutgers.edu (I.L.Sewell) Subject: Re: Earth Abides (THE SURVIVORS) Date: 10 Nov 85 14:41:47 GMT I agree with you the Survivors was a truly brilliant piece of 'SF'. I watched it many years ago when it first came out on BBC-1 (or BBC-2 I can't remember) but unfortunatly it has not been repeated as far as I know in this country(we have only four T.V. stations you know). The thing that really got me was the opening credits- they ALLWAYS scared me no matter how many times I saw them. Unfortunatly the following series (2,3 or 4 I can't remember) steadily went down hill as regards content and storyline and the last episodes were really not worth watching,they were that boring. There is a sequel to Terry Nations book called the Survivors 2 by some author I can't remember (again?).This though has very little to do with the first book or the series and is called a sequel only because it has the history of the plague and one of the characters of the first book as its main protagonist (the guys name I think is Tim,he was the one who shot his mum in the end of the first book). This apart the book is quiet interesting and well worth the read as long as you don't expect too much correlation with the series. IAN SEWELL ------------------------------ From: tardis!lucius@caip.rutgers.edu (Lucius Chiaraviglio) Subject: Re: Immortality vs Sex Date: 10 Nov 85 07:53:25 GMT > The issue of immortaility vs Sex is more than just the > "immortality" of the amoeba issue... > > The evolutionary advantage of sexual reproduction is that it > allows the species to change more rapidly. But, this change only > takes place in the offspring - the parents are unchanged. This > means that a species as soon as possible, leaving room for more > offspring. can maximize its adaptibility/survivability by having > the parents die as soon as possible, leaving room for more > offspring. This doesn't work, because 1. Genes evolve to survive better without regard to which individual they are surviving in, *but* the parents themselves are instances of the gene's survival, and thus inherently no worse nor better than the offspring in that respect. 2. Having the parents die to make way for offspring in no way whatsoever helps species adaptability, because if the parents are not as well able to adapt to a new condition as the offspring they will die anyway. 3. Parents are no more or less likely to be better-adapted to any particular set of circumstances (putting aside for a moment the effects of aging and experience) than any one of their offspring, for organisms do not evolve individually -- evolution occurs on the scale of a group of creatures as those that happen to be better fit for the current circumstances. The *only* thing here that favors offspring over parents here is that 2 parents can give rise to well over 2 offspring, so that statistically better-fit individuals are more likely to be among the offspring, but only in proportion to the ratio of offspring to parents. Thus, aging occurs NOT BECAUSE OF ANY SELECTIVE PRESSURE FOR IT but BECAUSE OF INSUFFICIENT SELECTIVE PRESSURE AGAINST IT to combat the effects of accumulating genetic burden. Thus, our developmental cycle is like a computer program that has not been debugged beyond a certain point. Lucius Chiaraviglio { seismo!tardis!lucius | lucius@tardis.UUCP } ------------------------------ From: olivee!gnome@caip.rutgers.edu (Gary Traveis) Subject: Fantasy stationary & cards Date: 7 Nov 85 22:02:38 GMT An artist friend of mine has a line of fantasy stationary and holiday greeting-cards (with centaurs, dragons, unicorns & the like). To get a copy of her 5 page catalog, just drop her a note. Barb Jernigan 212 Kelly Ave Half Moon Bay, CA 94019 or call 415 726 2674 (eves) or via the net... (hplabs,allegra,ihnp4)oliveb!oliven!barb ...Just thought you sf-lovers might be interested... Gary (hplabs,allegra,ihnp4)oliveb!olivee!gnome ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 14 Nov 85 1155-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #437 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 14 Nov 85 1155-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #437 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 14 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 437 Today's Topics: Books - October Booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hplabsd!faunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt) Subject: October Booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit Date: 11 Nov 85 05:43:09 GMT This is the October booklist from the OCOH, as copied from SCI-FIDO, a science-fiction oriented BBS in Oakland CA, (415)655-0667, run by Mike Farren. There are discussions of music, and other types of books on the system, also. The Other Change of Hobbit 2433 Channing Way Berkeley, CA 94704 (415) 848-0413 This is our second monthly booklist, covering books received in October. Lots of new titles this month, including several that we are really excited about! HARDCOVERS AND TRADE PAPERBACKS Asimov, Isaac ASIMOV'S GUIDE TO HALLEY'S COMET Non-fiction. Bellairs, John THE SPELL OF THE SORCERER'S SKULL Reprint of 1984 hardcover; same Edward Gorey cover art. Benno, Stefani TERRA! Translation of Italian satire set after a nuclear winter. Bloch, Robert HELL ON EARTH Graphic adaptation of 1942 WEIRD TALES story by Keith Giffen (art) and Robert Loren Fleming (text). Bradbury, Ray DEATH IS A LONELY BUSINESS His first novel since SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES! Brin, David THE POSTMAN Autographed copies available after November 14. Charnas, Suzy McKee THE BRONZE KING ("Delightful young adult novel set in a very well-realized New York City" - Debbie) Also recommended by Tom and Dave. Dick, Philip K. PUTTERING ABOUT IN A SMALL LAND First publication of non-sf novel written in the late 50s. Fonstad, Karen Wynn THE ATLAS OF THE LAND (hardcover) (trade paperback) Companion to her volumes for Middle-Earth and Pern. Forward, Robert L. STARQUAKE Sequel to DRAGON'S EGG. Fraser, George THE PYRATES MacDonald Reprint of 1984 hardcover. Gardner, John ON BECOMING A NOVELIST Non-fiction. Recommended by Jan. Grant, Charles L. (ed.) SHADOWS 8 Original anthology of horror stories. Gray, Alasdair 1982 JANINE Reprint of 1984 hardcover. Heinlein, Robert A. THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS: A Comedy of Manners Gorgeous Whelan jacket painting. ("Newness is no virtue." - the main character.) Herbert, Frank EYE Fourth in the Masterworks of Science Fiction and Fantasy - a series of single-author collections edited by Byron Preiss. Includes a beautiful Arrakeen portfolio by Jim Burns and an original essay by Herbert on the film of DUNE. Hodgell, P. C. DARK OF THE MOON Sequel to 1982's GODSTALK; maps laid in. Recommended by Debbie, Tom, Jan and Jennifer. Hubbard, L. Ron MISSION EARTH VOLUME I: THE INVADERS PLAN "Just the first volume of Mission Earth The Biggest Science Fiction Dekalogy Ever Written" - jacket copy. Johnson, Crockett A PICTURE FOR HAROLD'S ROOM Reprint of the 1960 hardcover; another great Purple Crayon adventure. Kay, Guy Gavriel THE SUMMER TREE Vol. I of The Fionavar Tapestry. ("Echoes of Tolkien, but not a copy. Recommended for high fantasy lovers." - Tom) Kelly, Walt OUTRAGEOUSLY POGO This third collection of Pogo and other Kelly miscellany from THE OKEFENOKEE STAR also reprints the complete daily strips from 1951 (only partially reprinted in POGO and I GO POGO)! (GOOD stuff! - Dave) Lee, Tanith THE SILVER METAL LOVER First DAW trade paperback; reprints 1981 mass market paperback. THE SILVER METAL LOVER Graphic adaptation by Trina Robbins. Miller, Walter M. Jr. BEYOND ARMAGEDDON and Martin H. Anthology of previously published Greenberg (eds.) post-Megawar stories. Moorcock, Michael THE LAUGHTER OF CARTHAGE British edition. First (trade) paperback from 1984 hardcover. Sequel to BYZANTIUM ENDURES. Musgrave, Real REAL FANTASIES Sixth edition of this artist's lovely portfolio. Norton, Andre and RIDE THE GREEN DRAGON Phyllis Miller Young adult novel. Pinkwater, Daniel M. YOUNG ADULTS Reprints YOUNG ADULT NOVEL, collects two new novellas, plus Macintosh art and a "self"-interview. ("Bizarre fun. Recommended." - Tom) Saberhagen, Fred BERSERKER: BLUE DEATH Second new Berserker novel this year! Shirley, John ECLIPSE Vol. I of the Song Called Youth Trilogy. Tolkien, J. R. R. THE LAYS OF BELERIAND The History of Middle-Earth, Vol. III ("This collection of narrative verse includes early Beren and Luthien story; recommended. - Jan) Tripp, Wallace MARGUERITE, GO WASH YOUR FEET Companion to GRANFA GRIG HAD A PIG and A GREAT BIG UGLY MAN CAME UP AND TIED HIS HORSE TO ME. ("Familiar and obscure verse embellished with clever and amusing illustrations. Delightful." - Debbie) Trudeau, G. B. CHECK YOUR EGOS AT THE DOOR Late '84 to early '85 cartoons; proceeds benefit USA FOR AFRICA. MASS MARKET PAPERBACKS Adams, Douglas SO LONG, AND THANKS FOR ALL THE FISH Reprint of the 1984 hardcover. "The Fourth Book in the HITCHHIKER'S TRILOGY!" Anderson, Poul THE DEVIL'S GAME Reprint of 1980 edition; new cover by Stephen Hickman. Asimov, Isaac, M. H. GIANTS Greenberg & C. G. Isaac Asimov's Magical Worlds of Waugh (eds.) Fantasy # 5. Anthology of previously published fantasy stories including several classics. Asprin, Robert Lynn & THE DEAD OF WINTER Lynn Abbey (eds.) Latest in the Thieves' World (TM) series of shared-world adventures. New cover format, artist Gary Ruddell replacing Walter Velez, heralds the new quarterly schedule. Ballard, J. G. THE UNLIMITED DREAM COMPANY Reprint of 1979 hardcover. Benford, Gregory & SHIVA DESCENDING William Rotsler Reprint of 1980 edition. Blish, James with STAR TREK (R) 12 J. A. Lawrence Back in print after 6 years ... Fortunately, they ditched the idea of renaming it after one of the episodes in it! Brown, Jerry Earl DARKHOLD Campbell, Ramsey THE FACE THAT MUST DIE Reprint of Scream Press 1983 hardcover. ("Excellent slasher novel" - Dave) Chalker, Jack THE DEVIL'S VOYAGE Reprint of 1981 hardcover. Non-sf novel about the ship that carried the atom bomb to the Pacific Island from which it was launched. Chant, Joy THE HIGH KINGS Retains maps and text, but drops illustrations and format of the beautiful coffee-table hardcover. Cook, Glen WARLOCK Darkwar Trilogy #2. Cook, Paul DUENDE MEADOW Dahl, Roald THE BFG ("A nicely done children's story - written with an ear for how it will sound aloud. The language is great fun." - Jennifer) THE WITCHES ("A good story, but a little uneven. An even shorter read than THE BFG." - Jennifer) Delaney, Joseph IN THE FACE OF THE ENEMY Novel incorporating the short story of the same title, but the gay content has been excised. Dick, Philip K. VALIS New cover on this dense and provocative novel which began a new phase of Dick's career. Dickson, Gordon R. BEYOND THE DAR AL-HARB Collection of two novelettes (1964 and 1972) and a previously unpublished short novel. INVADERS! *gasp* A non-repetitive collection (only one story previously in a Dickson collection). Maybe they ran out of old ones to cannibalize? SECRETS OF THE DEEP Collects the three young adult novels SECRET UNDER THE SEA (1960), SECRET UNDER ANTARCTICA (1963) and SECRET UNDER THE CARIBBEAN (1964). Only the first ever had a paperback before. Foster, M.A. PRESERVER Conclusion of The Morphodite trilogy. Frakes, Randall & THE TERMINATOR Bill Wisher The American (and second, following the British) novelization of the 1984 movie. Harrison, Harry SKYFALL Reprint of the 1976 hardcover. Hartwell, David AGE OF WONDERS Photoreduced reprint of the 1984 hardcover, including the many typos. Still an interesting (and controversial) overview of sf by the editor of the late lamented Timescape Books. Recommended by Debbie, Dave and Tom. Heinlein, Robert A. JOB: A Comedy of Justice Reprint of the 1984 hardcover. 1985 Hugo nominee. Hughes, Edward P. THE LONG MYND Novel incorporating first of the charming Dafydd stories from FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION. Ing, Dean WILD COUNTRY Sequel to SYSTEMIC SHOCK and SINGLE COMBAT. Johnson, Crockett BARNABY #1: WANTED: A FAIRY GODFATHER #2: MR. O'MALLEY AND THE HAUNTED HOUSE ("Anyone not familiar with this 1940s cartoon strip is missing a great treat! If you are familiar with it, all you need to know is that these volumes reprint all the strips, not just the ones that were in earlier books. Don't miss these--if you don't buy them, Del Rey may not reprint the rest." - Debbie) Also recommended by Tom and Dave. Kahn, James WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME Reprint of 1980 paperback. TIME'S DARK LAUGHTER Reprint of 1982 paperback; sequel to WORLD ENOUGH AND TIME. King, Stephen & THE TALISMAN Peter Straub Reprint of 1984 hardcover. 1985 World Fantasy Award nominee. ("Overly long and repetitive - but when you're this successful, nobody edits you." - Tom) Kotzwinkle, William QUEEN OF SWORDS Reprint of 1984 hardcover. Larson, Majliss PAWNS AND SYMBOLS Pocket Books Star Trek (R) novel #26. Laumer, Keith THE OTHER SKY/THE HOUSE IN NOVEMBER A Tor Double (in the old two-sided style made famous by Ace). This combination appeared previously in a non-flippable from Tor in 1981. THE OTHER SKY's previous title was GREYLORN. Lee, Tanith DAYS OF GRASS Science fiction novel; Whelan cover. LeGuin, Ursula K. THE DISPOSSESSED This outstanding Hugo- and Nebula- winning novel doesn't deserve a cover which pays homage to 1930s space opera. Like the previous paperback, this drops the great subtitle, "An Ambiguous Utopia." Lovelock, James & THE GREENING OF MARS Michael Allaby Reprint of 1984 hardcover. Fictionalized futurism. MacDonald, George AT THE BACK OF THE NORTH WIND Reprint of 1871 novel. McEvoy, Seth NOT QUITE HUMAN (TM) #1: BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED #2: ALL GEARED UP Young Android novels. Meluch, R. M. JERUSALEM FIRE Michaels, Melisa C. FIRST BATTLE Skyrider #2 (but not packaged like a sequel). Nelson, Ray Faraday TIMEQUEST Revised version of BLAKE'S PROGRESS. Pournelle, Jerry RED HEROIN Non-sf thriller previously published in 1969 under the pseudonym "Wade Curtis." Robbins, Tom JITTERBUG PERFUME Reprint of the 1984 hardcover. Sagan, Carl COSMOS Reprint of the 1980 hardcover; the book of the TV series. Saha, Arthur W. (ed.) THE YEAR'S BEST FANTASY STORIES: 11 Schmidt, Dennis WANDERER The fourth Kensho book; sequel to WAYFARER, KENSHO and SATORI (which are all out of print now but will be made available again soon). Siegel, Robert WHALESONG Reprint of the 1981 hardcover. Silverberg, Robert GILGAMESH THE KING Reprint of the 1984 hardcover. NEEDLE IN A TIMESTACK First American edition of the 1979 revised edition of this 1966 collection retains four stories, replaces the other six with five others, four of which appeared in THE REALITY TRIP (1972) and one in THE CUBE ROOT OF UNCERTAINTY. Don't blame us; write to Ace. Snyder, Zilpha Keatly UNTIL THE CELEBRATION The third book of Green Sky, following BELOW THE ROOT and AND ALL BETWEEN. Vance, Jack THE DRAGONMASTERS Switched publishers (within corporate umbrella); retained cover. 1963 Hugo winner--Best Novel. RHIALTO THE MARVELOUS Reprint of 1984 hardcover; contains three connected Dying Earth novelettes and a teaser story by C. J. Cherryh for HEROES FROM HELL, coming early next year. (They must have had extra space ... ) Vardeman, Robert E. & BLOOD FOUNTAIN George W. Proctor Book #3 of Swords of Raemllyn. Varley, John DEMON Reprint 1984 hardcover; long-awaited conclusion to the Gaean trilogy. Recommended by Debbie. Watkins, William John THE CENTRIFUGAL RICKSHAW DANCER Do you think he put an "h" in his middle name for his fourth book, or do you think the publishers goofed? ("Not as good as its title, but loaded with interesting concepts." - Debbie) Westall, Robert THE DEVIL ON THE ROAD Reprint of a 1978 hardcover; would have been a MagicQuest. Recommended by Dave and Debbie. Whiteford, Wynne THOR'S HAMMER First published in Australia, 1983. Williamson, Jack LIFEBURST Reprint of 1984 hardcover. ("Old master succeeds at modern sf novel. Can someone translate the Swahili for me? - Dave") ERRATUM: Last month's list mentioned Carl Sagan's first novel, "COSMOS." It is actually entitled CONTACT. COSMOS is, of course, the book of the TV show, as mentioned above. !hplabs!faunt faunt%hplabs@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Nov 85 0848-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #438 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 438 Today's Topics: Books - Hodgell & Moore & Story Requests (3 msgs) & Request Answered, Television - Amazing Stories (3 msgs) & Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Contacting Authors & Fourth Street Fantasy Convention & Immortality vs Love ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Nov 85 05:28:01 pst From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Subject: Godstalk >>A crazed plot without "sequel warnings" combined with insufferably >>cute talking cats. Godstalk is a poor womans version of Norton's >>"Breed to Come". Not recommended. > >WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I *never* in the 5 times that I have read >the book found "cute talking cats". Nor did I think it was crying >for a sequel. Typical scene: Jame wakes up. large object on Jame's chest. what could it be? It is a cat. Jame closes eyes again and contemplates Kencyr racial memory of times when her claws were not so recessed. Why is it so hard to breathe? oh yeah, there is a cat on chest. She was trying to dislodge the beast, who only responded with a loud purr, when a woman darted into the room crying "Boo, you great lump!"... and so on Be warned. As for sequels, Hodgell has a talent for names: Perimal Darkling, Archiem, Cleppety, Marplet, Tai-Weir, Tai-Sondre, Tai-Tastigon, The Bay of Benitar.. Hundreds and hundreds of names, all good and confusing. Did I miss an explanation somewhere? Maybe I should read one of the three Appendices now? Will it spoil anything? (yes.). too bad. By the end of the book everything is clear? >As for it being a rewrite of "Breed to Come", I can't say, cause I >have never read that particular book of Norton's. I guess you have a treat in store. Both books are about catlike beings exploring strange cities in a world where Man is not as we know him. ------------------------------ From: mtuxo!jrrt@caip.rutgers.edu (r.mitchell) Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction Date: 11 Nov 85 22:04:49 GMT > From: Jessie Tharp You listed a few men who treated women intelligently. I'd add one name to the list; a man who has had a believeable, intelligent woman as a main character in every one of his novels. The man is Carl Sagan, and the best example of this is his latest, CONTACT. You listed C. L. Moore as having women in traditional roles. I won't argue, not having read much of her work, but at least one book is (was) quite innovative. JIREL OF JOIRY is a book recently re-issued by Ace Fantasy. It's a collection of 5 novellas from the '30s, all of which center on Jirel, the warrior-leader of Joiry. It's not a hack-and-slash-Red-Sonja-type fantasy. Moore is very skillful in crafting a grim environment, and in developing the character of Jirel, a tragically-flawed heroine in the spirit of Moorcock's Elric, although pre-dating Elric by decades. Jirel is a strong, vibrant woman, who survives as a warrior without losing sight of her femininity. By that, I mean she's not just a male-character-with-a-lumpy-chestplate. She's aware that she's a woman in a man's world. She doesn't let that fact intimidate her; she just sets her goals and works toward them, knowing that many people will misjudge her because of her sex. Considering the era these stories first came out ('34-'39), Moore does a credible job in letting us see how Jirel responds to being "violated" (a barbarian chieftain kissing her against her will) in a way that draws clear analogies to the modern-day concern about rape. Anyway, these stories are quite different from the run-of-the-mill macho warrior fantasy epic. I'd suggest they are worth reading. Rob Mitchell {allegra,ihnp4}!mtuxo!jrrt ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC Subject: name that religion Date: 12 Nov 85 01:48:24 GMT Does anybody remember a novel that featured a religion based on Gladly the cross-eyed bear? As I remember, this groaner occured early in the book--in my opinion, too bad, the rest of the book went downhill from there, and I think the rest of the book had little to do with this scenario so I always thought it was a cheap stunt. I'd like to know so that I don't accidentally buy this book again. :-) L S Chabot ...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-amber!chabot ------------------------------ From: hplabsc!brengle@caip.rutgers.edu (Tim Brengle) Subject: Book/title needed. Date: 12 Nov 85 01:59:31 GMT My hope is that someone out there has read the same sort of weird stuff I have... Somewhere around 15 years ago, when books consisting of three novellas were in vogue, I read a story in one that I would really like to reread. The protagonist is a private eye (I think), and gets a call to go to a hotel where he finds a message board with a listing for a "Witches' Covention". He thinks that it is a misprint, but it turns out not to be. True names have power. There is a woman/girl named Ariel (and we find out at the very end that her true name is also Ariel) whose father uses mathematics to control magic. I remember his writing an equation on the doorstep which caused the door to remain locked until the cancelling equation was written on the other side. I am pretty sure that it is the last story in the book. Any pointers? Thanks in advance, Tim Brengle ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling) Subject: Worried about a title Date: 11 Nov 85 20:35:59 GMT I am in the process of writing a story about your favorite cliche and mine, that of the infinite desirability of human women. Hopefully I'll be doing something new or at least interesting with the idea. The working title is "The Alien's Woman" and I was wondering if this title was taken. Can anyone help me out? P.S. Thanks to everyone who responded to my query on how to get published. No, I haven't heard word from F&SF about the story I sent them. It's been three weeks, and I can only hope that's a good sign. If they buy it, the net will be the first to know. If not, I'll try to get back to those who wrote and expressed an interest in discussing things. Mark! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 85 16:17:16 EST From: Melinda Berkman Subject: story request I am fairly certain that the recent request for identification of a novel about a high-rise living space, with floors divided into neighborhoods, and doors left open at night to facilitate partner-swapping, was a book by Barry Malzberg, a name that doesn't come up here too often. I'm sorry that I can't give the the name of the book, as I'm not too fond of this author and the novel didn't make it past the twice-a-decade sweep of my shelves to make room for new stuff. I do recall that there was a number in the title. I'm sure Jerry Boyajian could fill in the details. It was the only one of his books that I came close to liking. ------------------------------ From: isis!aburt@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Burt) Subject: Spielberg's sources discovered! Date: 10 Nov 85 07:17:10 GMT Contrary to the suggestion by the net.aviation folks that Spielberg scans the net for interesting Amazing Stories ideas, I suspect he uses methods far more devious -- he reads Andy Rooney. I'd like to draw your attention to an anecdote in Rooney's new book, "Pieces of my mind", entitled "Reunion" (page 321 in the paperback edition). It seems the story about the trapped ball-turret gunner is true... Ol' Andy was a reporter for Stars and Stipes, and at some point recently returned to England for a reunion of the 306th Bomb Group. In his description of the reunion he writes: Often the bombers came back badly damanged and with crew members dead or dying. In April of 1943 I was here when they came back from a raid deep in Germany and one of the pilots radioed in that he was going to have to make an emgergency landing. He had only two engines left and his hydraulic system was gone. He couldn't let the wheels down and there was something even worse. The ball-turret gunner was trapped in the plastic bubble that hung beneath the belly of the bomber. Later I talked with the crewman who survived that landing. Their friend in the ball-turret had been calm, they said. They had talked to him. He knew what they had to do. He understood. The B-17 slammed down on its belly... and on the ball turret with their comrade trapped inside it. I suspect such a story was big news back then. Does anyone remember anything of this sort (of those net-landers old enough to have been around and alert)? It's easy to see how Spielberg got wind of it, though. I missed the first ten minutes or so; was there any sort of dedication of the episode to that poor fellow and his family? (Now THAT would have been a good rating grabber!) Did anyone catch what military unit the B-17 was part of? Ah, well, the most amazing stories in life are true. In light of this I can see why he opted for the cartoon ending (which I thought was a cop out) -- it wouldn't do to present a true story when the format of the show is for the surreal. The real ending would have been good drama, too. (Heaven forbid A.S. should be good drama in addition to flat characters and thin plots.) But, of course, it violates the, "Thou shalt not leave thy viewers depressed" commandment. Overall, I thought the hour show was well done, but for the ending they tacked on it would better have been a half-hour segment. The other episodes to date have left me underwhelmed. On the other hand, if there were more substance on TV I wouldn't have so much time to read news... Andrew Burt University of Denver Department of Math and Computer Science UUCP: {hao, nbires}!isis!aburt CSNet: aburt@UDENVER ------------------------------ From: tolerant!waynet@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Thompson) Subject: Re: Computer Animation in Amazing Stories - Nov. 3 Date: 10 Nov 85 21:21:52 GMT > The one thing that amazed me about the Amazing Stories episode > "The Mission" is the computer graphics, which were so good that > nobody on the net has even mentioned them! > David D. Levine (...decvax!tektronix!teklds!davidl) [UUCP] I thought the computer graphics were laughably obvious, thus my reference to 'Amazing Big Cartoon Wheels. BTW, If the debris was CA I missed it. Wayne Thompson ..(mordor,ucbvax)!tolerant!waynet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 85 14:34 EST From: " Roz " Subject: AS's 'The Mission' FYI (and according to my bomber-type flying friends): There really was an incident (sans Speilberg's ending) involving a gunner trapped in the belly turret of a returning crippled aircraft...unfortunately, the ending was not as pleasant. (By the by, there were probably more than one such incident.) For those interested in 'realism', the flyers also said that the tear in the 'chute would not have prevented a successful bailout and subsequent chute-opening. They have a term for it (something about a three-line ?? chute)--but I am neither a flyer nor a parachutist, so it went in one ear and out the other! Roz ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!thornton@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC468) Subject: Star Trek Blooper Reel? :-) Date: 11 Nov 85 11:28:36 GMT PLEASE! Does anyone out there know if the Star Trek Blooper compilation is available on video (in the U.K.)? Is 'The Cage' available? I've got to see it.. I've got to..got to..arrggghhhh. Thump. Andy T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 12 Nov 85 14:24:50-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Reaching Harlan Ellison (and other Famous Authors) --- Subject: DON'T!!! Harlan Ellison (this previous weekend at Sci-Con 7 in Virginia Beach) described in detail why he did not want people to write, call or visit him. Apparently, he gets 200 letters a week (a day? I don't remember), phone calls in the middle of the night, people sleeping in his car (if they couldn't reach him, it seems to be the next best thing). Yes, he says, he realizes that his stories may be important to you, but he won't be able to write any more of them if you bother him anymore. Harlan may seem cold to you for saying this, but his time is the only thing he has sell. Apparently, Stephen King has it a thousand times worse. Harlan also mentioned some incidents with fans ranging from abusive behavior (with neutral witnesses to verify Harlan's side) to abuse of a writer's daughter by a fan the author allowed to stay overnight. Of course, if you want to offer him money to write a story, or lecture, or whatever, you can find his number in the LA phone book -- that's why it's there. But please don't abuse it. I have a feeling most writers should not be bothered -- letters are good, because they can be answered with a form or a postcard (Harlan is unusual for his request that letters not be sent)-- and certainly not by phone or in person. If you want to get a response, why not write to a new author or a less-famous old-timer? The famous and popular authors have too many fans for their own good. [end flame] wz ------------------------------ From: hyper!brust@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Brust) Subject: Fourth Street Fantasy Convention Date: 8 Nov 85 15:22:37 GMT Today is the first day of the rest...no, I just can't do it. As my last posting for a while (I'm still hoping to find a machine that will run EMACS, give me a UUCP node, and is free), I would like to tell everyone here about -- Fourth Street Fantasy Convention ("Best Fantasy Convention on the Block") June 20 and 21, 1986, at the Minneapolis Plaza Hotel, 315 Nicollet Mall, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 55401 (612)332-4000 Guest of Honor: Roger Zelazny Guest Editor: Terri Windling Guest Agent: Valerie Smith Guest Artist: [Being negotiated] Godfather: David Hartwell We're defining fantasy as just about anything except hard SF and horror. Mainstream? Well, sure, if you want... There will be no costume show. There will be no movies. There will be no gaming rooms. There will be no video. There will be a Huckster room and an art show, and there will be panels. Some of the topics for the panels (this is all tentative) are: Philosophy of Cover Art Relationship between Author and Editor How does a writer avoid stagnation? Moral Fiction--Does it exist? Who's responsible? Influence of Tolkien for good or ill If this sounds stuffy or boring, then I expect you will find the convention stuffy or boring too, so DON'T COME! If this sounds interesting, call or write to: Reen or Steven Brust 4880 106th Ave. NE Circle Pines, Mn. 55014 (612)784-2437 Or make contact with Joel Halpern via UUCP at-- ...!hyper!jmh I hope to see all of you there, or back on the net, or somewhere else. Steven Brust ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: Immortality vs Love Date: 11 Nov 85 13:27:16 GMT We've had the articles about immortality & sex being mutually exclusive, now what about immortality and love? I don't mean society wise, but - well, if you were made immortal, eternal youth, the whole bit, would you be able to fall in love? Would you let yourself fall in love? Would you no longer feel it a workable proposition? Why does nobody (nobody I know) feel they are equal to immortality? Is it good old Hubris, or actually unworkable? I feel very strongly about this, having written a novel on the effects of an individual's immortality. I eventually came to (among other things) the conclusion that you had to be some kind of psychopath to survive an immortal lifetime, and thus the sort of person that *has* to dominate. One last thought. My immortal had the power to 'bestow' immortality. Who gets to choose? R. Ramsay Westfield College ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Nov 85 0910-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #439 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 439 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Lovecraft & In Medias Res & Marshak and Culbreath & Thieve's World & Story Request & Request Answered, Television - Star Trek (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Time Travel (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan) Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction Date: 12 Nov 85 18:36:49 GMT How can anyone read _Podkayne of Mars_ and then say that Heinlein's juveniles deal honestly with women? The juveniles consistently show female characters in traditionally feminine roles, hiding their intelligence, and even using sex to get what they want from men. The only exception to this is the female character (Betty?) in _The Star Beast_, and *she* was portrayed as being bossy (note the negative connotation!). ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: 'Herbert West--The Re-Animator' (Lovecraft) Date: 13 Nov 85 12:52:21 GMT "Herbert West--The Re-Animator" by H. P. Lovecraft A book review by Mark R. Leeper Having recently seen the film RE-ANIMATOR, I was curious to read the H. P. Lovecraft story on which the film claimed to be based, "Herbert West--The Re-Animator". I found it in a British paperback, DAGON AND OTHER MACABRE TALES by Lovecraft. Reading it, I got some insight into how the author must have used his name to get stories published. At first it would appear to be one story in six chapters. It quickly becomes apparent as each chapter is self-contained and re-introduces the characters that this is not one story in six chapters, but six stories which must have been published separately. The stories must have been collected without re-editing and called a single story. However, if one reads still further it dawns on the reader that this is not six stories but one story told six times with minor variations. Lovecraft wrote these stories much the way Kelly Freas did covers for Laser Books or producers make FRIDAY THE 13TH films. Lovecraft churned out these stories by formula. He introduces the main character and Herbert West, sating how they met in medical school. He says that West re-animated the dead and it caused trouble in the past. Then he explains the new experiment and how by bringing someone or something back from the dead, West had created a really hideous being, that if you saw it it would really scare the Bejesus out of you. Actually, the closest analogy to this style of story-telling is that of the Hammer "Frankenstein" series, in which the scientist tries a different experiment in each film, but they all seem to end in shambling horror. Lovecraft told this same story six times and was probably paid as if each was an original. In actual fact, the film was probably no worse than the story. It did use a number of ideas from the story and molded them together into a seventh Herbert West story, somewhat more complex than the first six, but not all that different. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Wednesday, 13 Nov 85 04:00:25 EST From: sclafani (michael sclafani) @ a.psy.cmu.edu Subject: In Medias Res Ellison did it in "Repent, Harlequin!" Said The Ticktockman. He even signposted it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 85 12:40 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: Marshak and Culbreath The division in fannish opinion is pretty much for all the Marshak and Culbreath books. I guess you're either "into" that style or not. Of the people I've talked about those books (maybe that comes to 1 or 2 dozen) I'd say opinions are about half and half pro and con. The New Voyages stories most severely edited were "Ni Var" and "Mind Sifter." I've read both originals and do feel that the editing did a terrible injustice to the stories. "Mind Sifter" was by Shirley Maiewski, now the head the of the Star Trek Welcommittee. Some of her comments on the treatment of her story were in a LoC she sent to my newsletter, the Propagator and appeared in Issue 9, May 1985. Here are some excerpts: >Frankly, people have asked why I don't write more after the success >(!) of "Mind Sifter"... long story, but two main reasons - first, >the damage done to my story by the editors (without my knowledge or >permission), secondly, the thought that anything else I might write >would be torn apart by the "experts." Best reasons in the world >for a terminal case of Writer's Block. >The problems that arose around Star Trek: The New Voyages, and my >story "Mind Sifter" were caused by the things the editors PUT IN, >which I did not know about until I bought the book. Many people >have written to say that my story was their favorite, and I am >pleased that they received enjoyment from reading it as published. >Of course, I should have had a contract with the editors and the >publisher, but I confess, I did not know better at that time! As a >member of SFWA, the Science Fiction Writers of America, I now know >all about contracts and galley-proofs and authors' rights - things >I knew nothing about when my story was selected for the book. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 85 11:34 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Thieve's World I just picked up the 7th Thieve's World collection call The Dead of Winter and it looks pretty good. I will review it after I read it. However, I was wondering if anyone has read the novels that are supposed to go along the shorts. There is one Beyond the Wizardwall or somesuch and a few others that are written by Janet Morris, I believe. Any word? And how does my favorite, Tempus, do? I hope he has a large role. Jon ------------------------------ From: friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 11 Nov 85 19:47:00 GMT A while ago, I read a short story -- wish I could find it again -- based on a society of all males. They were humans; their ancestors had been in a space disaster that had stranded them without women on some previously uninhabited planet. The survivors of the disaster had cloning technology that they used for domestic animals, and they adapted the technology to themselves. The society had become primitive, and no longer understood their own reproduction, but were able to maintain and utilize the cloning machinery their ancestors had set up. A pretty interesting story was placed in this society. Does this sound familiar to anyone? ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Book/title needed. Date: 12 Nov 85 23:25:19 GMT brengle@hplabsc.UUCP (Tim Brengle) writes: > The protagonist is a private eye (I think), and gets a call to go > to a hotel where he finds a message board with a listing for a > "Witches' Covention". He thinks that it is a misprint, but it > turns out not to be. True names have power. There is a > woman/girl named Ariel (and we find out at the very end that her > true name is also Ariel) whose father uses mathematics to control > magic. I remember his writing an equation on the doorstep which > caused the door to remain locked until the cancelling equation was > written on the other side. The book is now in print as a small novel. MAGICIANS by James Gunn. The premise is that it's possible to work magic if you believe that what you're trying to do will work and if you can properly visualize or conceptualize what you want done. In other words magic is a two-step process, tapping the power and then properly controlling it. In the MAGICIANS, there are two types of magicians, people who have discovered magic through mathematics and realized that mathematics can be used to control the power with a great deal of precision and the "traditional" magicians who use rituals, sacrifice, believe in demons & devils, etc. The traditional magicians led by one called Solomon are trying to seize control of the society by eliminating anyone who would stand in their way. The protagonist stumbles across the society of magicians and becomes involved in the struggle. It's a good read. Nothing too deep, but it's fun and it definitely presents an interesting view of magic. You can probably find it on the shelf of any major book-chain in the science-fiction section. (I found it in either Waldenbooks or B. Dalton's many years back.) I liked it. Hope you find a copy. Ray Chen gitpyr!chen Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!chen ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: ST Animateds Found!! Date: 10 Nov 85 15:56:18 GMT Your cup runneth over. Niven (The Slaver Wepaon << good) and Gerrold (More Tribbles, More Troubles << awful; Bem << brilliant) both did animated Star Trek episodes. But not Sturgeon or Ellison. Koenig's Infinite Vulcan is actually a good story, filling in some of the history of the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s, but suffers from a problem that plagued the animated series as a whole: they threw in a 20-meter-tall Mr. Spock for no better justification that the fact that, because the show is animated, it would be fun to draw him that way. The series suffers from a second major problem: retreads. Far too many episodes are just mediocre sequels or inferior rehashings of live episodes. The aforementioned Tribbles is perhaps the worst offender, but there's an awful sequel to Shore Leave, a version of "Who Mourns for Adonais" with an American Indian God, a version of "Menagerie" with elephant-like captors, and yet another story about a cloud creature, not to mention another Harry Mudd story. Some examples of the first problem occur to me: the crew shrinks (Terratin incidnet), the crew gets old (Loreli Signal), the crew turns blue (Albatross), Kirk and Spock turn into Creatures from the Black Lagoon (The Ambergris Element) ... Oh, and more: the crew ages backwards, the gravity goes off ... anything that would be fun to draw, regardless of whether it made any sense at all. There were some good episodes: Yesteryear, Slaver Weapon, Bem, I liked Albatross, too ... One more retread: Ted Baxter beams aboard pretending to be an octopus version of the incredible salt vampire ... Enough! RJS in Toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ From: friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: ST Animateds Found!! Date: 11 Nov 85 22:37:00 GMT The episode I saw at 5:30 pm Saturday 11/9 was "The Infinite Vulcan". They're showing an episode three times each weekend. I understood these were repeats of the same episode, but I didn't verify that. Can anyone verify whether they repeated the same episode all three times? When these were on Saturday morning TV, I remember seeing all but one episode. They have always seemed to me to vary a lot in quality, but when you consider that they were intended for kiddie audiences, I guess they're not too bad. Some are very good even for adult audiences. ------------------------------ From: mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: ST Animateds Found!! Date: 18 Nov 85 05:07:00 GMT > The episode I saw at 5:30 pm Saturday 11/9 was "The Infinite > Vulcan". They're showing an episode three times each weekend. I > understood these were repeats of the same episode, but I didn't > verify that. Can anyone verify whether they repeated the same > episode all three times? Apparently they're showing different episodes in each time slot. They had "More Tribbles, More Troubles" on Saturday morning, and the episode were Spock goes back in time to save his own life on Sunday morning. Scott McEwan {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan ------------------------------ From: unc!black@caip.rutgers.edu (Samuel Black) Subject: National Tribble Day Date: 8 Nov 85 16:12:23 GMT Dateline Starfleet Command -------- --------- ------- On December 29, 1967, the world first saw "The Trouble with Tribbles." At the end of that episode comes the following dialogue (paraphrased): Kirk: ... You'll have to clean up all the tribbles on K-7, Mr. Jones. Cyrano: Kirk, friend Kirk, that's inhuman. It'll take years! Spock: 17.9 to be exact. Well, folks, you guessed it. 17.9 years from that first airing of TTWT brings us to November 23, 1985. I hereby declare that date as National Tribble Day! ...!{decvax,ihnp4}!mcnc!unc!black (usenet) black%unc@csnet-relay.csnet (arpanet) ------------------------------ From: tellab3!thoth@caip.rutgers.edu (Marcus Hall) Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2 Date: 11 Nov 85 18:37:38 GMT #d22%ddathd21.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes: >Just imagine the whole thing with one dimesion more, our universe >being the 3-dimensional surface of a 4-dimensional balloon. (Ever >blown up a 4-D balloon?) > >But, to put some speculation in the time travel thing: Think of >time being the fourth dimension. So as time goes by, we (our >universe) gets alway farther away from the center of our 4-D >balloon. And if we should travel in time, we should be able to >stay always on the same radius of that sphere, and by this stay at >the same place in space. This opens the door for yet another potential problem of time travel. Why would one stay on the same radius of the expanding sphere? What if time travel caused you to stay in the same place in 4D space? Travel through time would then cause one to leave our universe and presumably end up in some other universe! An intersting thought. Do all universes expand from the same point? Are there many universes stacked adjacent to each other all expanding from this point? Are there actually many points that universes are expanding from but the meta-universe is mostly void? What happens when two expanding universes collide? At any rate, if one argues that time travel should leave the traveler in the same absolute location (whatever that means), does that imply that they fall out of the universe which expands away from them? marcus hall ..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_ajsk@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Simon Kay) Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2 Date: 14 Nov 85 00:19:14 GMT > What if time travel caused you to stay in the same place in 4D > space? Travel through time would then cause one to leave our > universe and presumably end up in some other universe! An > intersting thought. Do all universes expand from the same point? > Are there many universes stacked adjacent to each other all > expanding from this point? Are there actually many points that > universes are expanding from but the meta-universe is mostly void? > What happens when two expanding universes collide? > > At any rate, if one argues that time travel should leave the > traveler in the same absolute location (whatever that means), does > that imply that they fall out of the universe which expands away > from them? > > marcus hall ..!ihnp4!tellab1!tellab2!thoth You are forgetting one thing: that normal time does not exist outside spacetime, by definition. Therefore, I think that probably for the time traveler, all times would have to exist. Think of it not interms of a balloon but an infinite number of balloons one inside the other infinitely close to each other. Each balloon then represents the universe at a given moment. Thus a time traveler would not be leaving space-time forever, but would merely be traveling to another "balloon." Jonathan Kay seismo!umcp-cs!aplvax!jhunix!ins_ajsk ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 18 Nov 85 0930-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #440 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 18 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 440 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Asimov & Barnes (2 msgs) & Brunner & King & Wyndham & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs), Television - Robotech & Captain Harlock, Miscellaneous - SF Cons List Updated & Space Is Clean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Nov 1985 16:44:03 PST Subject: HGttG From: Alan R. Katz Now availible: "The Original HITCHHIKER Radio Scripts" by Douglas Adams, the complete and unedited scripts from the original BBC Radio Show. Includes notes by Adams on the show (such as where the name Slartibartfast came from) and previously censored material. Published by Harmony Books, NY. Alan ------------------------------ From: rti-sel!rcb@caip.rutgers.edu (Random) Subject: Re: Robots and Empire Date: 13 Nov 85 13:58:58 GMT JWHITE%MAINE.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA writes: >Remember me, I'm the guy who had the audacity to enjoy one of >Asimov's later works, specifically Robots of Dawn, and to actually >think it better than the God's Themselves!! > >Well, I'm going to hang myself again and highly recommend Robots >and Empire. No spoilers here. I believe it to be classic Asimov. >It is the pivotal novel in Asimov's quest to tie together the >Empire novels and the Robot novels. I most stongly agree. I liked robots of dawn and I just finished robots and empire. They both continue the fine tradition of caves of steel and the naked sun. Highly recommended. Random Research Triangle Institute ...!mcnc!rti-sel!rcb ------------------------------ From: pedsgd!bobh@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Halloran) Subject: Re: Steve Barnes Date: 13 Nov 85 12:57:56 GMT >From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >You may have noticed that Steve Barnes wrote the Twilight Zone >episode, Teacher's Aide, that aired on 8 November. He also wrote >Dream Park with Larry Niven and a story in Niven's The Magic May >Return. Does anybody know of anything else he has written? He and Niven had a second collaboration, "The Descent of Anasazi", paperback by Tor Books. Premise is an American-built space station declares independence and gets into trouble from industrial terrorists while trying to deliver its first payload of super-cable (sounding suspiciously like Ringworld shadow-square wire). Bob Halloran Sr MTS, Perkin-Elmer DSG UUCP: {decvax, ucbvax, most Action Central}!vax135\ {topaz, pesnta, princeton}!petsd!pedsgd!bobh USPS: 106 Apple St M/S 305, Tinton Falls NJ 07724 DDD: (201) 758-7000 ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!chen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Chen) Subject: Re: Steve Barnes Date: 14 Nov 85 03:07:59 GMT Well, since no one else has reponded yet... Steven Barnes has written one solo novel that I know of, named STREET LETHAL. It's set in a very Blade-runner-ish/Neuromancer type world, grim, grey, and the big guys/crime bosses rule. The protagonist (Aubrey something-or-other) is a null-boxer. Null boxing being basically what it sounds like, in a sphere in zero gee. What makes a null-boxer special is that he has to able to inflict physical damage without the benefit of gravity. If you've ever done any serious fighting (martial arts, boxing, etc.) just think about this for a while. The story has a number of plot-lines that eventually converge, involving a struggle for power within an organized crime family, a strange new drug, Aubrey's revenge for being framed and sent to prison, and Aubrey's mental and emotional change from a skilled brawler to an emerging master (in the traditional martial art sense of the word). This isn't a book I'd recommend for everyone. I liked and thought it was very good. The real story is about power, honor, fighting, and people. There's a good deal of philosophy woven into the book. Because of the themes, though, it's a very intense novel with quite a bit of violence and anger. Chances are, though, you'll either think it was good at the end, or you won't make it through middle. If you can, though, try it and see. I think Barnes is a pretty good writer. Solid prose, and his characterizations are far far better than Niven's. (I shudder to think what would have happened if Niven had written Dream Park alone...) Not to mention a very nice plot line. (Which I won't spoil, no, no, no, arghhh....) Ray Chen gitpyr!chen Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 ...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!chen ------------------------------ From: pixdoc!vsh@caip.rutgers.edu (Steve Harris) Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2 Date: 14 Nov 85 16:15:05 GMT re. this discussion -- there is a wonderful sci-fi novel on multiple universes and time travel. John Brunner's "The Infinitive of Go". Steve Harris Pixel Systems Inc. 300 Wildwood Street Woburn, MA 01801 617-933-7735 x2314 {allegra|ihnp4|cbosgd|ima|genrad|amd|harvard}!wjh12!pixel!pixdoc!vsh ------------------------------ Date: Thu 14 Nov 85 13:05:48-PST From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: King/Thinner kind of a review Some of you may recall that just weeks ago I said I was gone forever. (You won't have Bob Sheleg to kick around anymore). Sorry, I guess I'm addicted. I'll admit to having read Thinner. I've read a lot of King's work. It's quality varies GREATLY, I mean even in the same work (or in the same chapter, or on the same page (!)). At it's best it's excellent. At it's worst, it's awful. You'd be better off watching Dallas, or Houston, or paint dry. Usually the problem is it's just too wordy!! Turn the page....unneeded. Turn the page...unnecessary. Turn the page, turn the page......Finally! Sometimes though, he will offer up an image or a sentence so laughably bad one either bursts out laughing, or else stops reading and makes the appropriate groaning sound. example: "Her homesickness was so strong it was almost sickening." Do you think he does that on purpose? As for Thinner, it is standard King (err, um...I mean Backman). If you like his work, you'll like Thinner. There were a few amusing lines like "This is starting to sound like a Steven King novel." The story essentially doesn't work for a number of reasons (not unusual for a King novel), and some stuff is so cheap I was again tempted to think it was very dry humor. *** SLIGHT SPOILER *** Like the way he made such a big deal over what the old gypsy said, only he obviously couldn't think of any appropriate or striking word to describe the other people's afflictions. So, instead of just ignoring it (second best to actually coming up with something) he added things like (not exact quote) "What did he say to you?" "I don't know. It was too noisy". Come on!! However, I still think you could do worse than spending an evening reading it. There are a few genres where one (or at least I) tend to forgive a lot. First and foremost I think is science fiction. Wooden dialogue, implausible plotting, even badly drawn characters can often be forgiven if a wonderfully drawn alternate universe is described, or some bizarre paradox is dealt with. Next I think is Theater of the Absurd, where one is never sure if the play (or whatever) is doing it's futility and meaninglessness bit on itself. I'd happily trade all of the problems with Albee's THE ZOO STORY for that one monologue about coming to terms with things (Haunting. Gave me goose bumps. No great literature since Milton? HA!!). Third isn't a genre at all. It's simply King. I'll take the wordiness (although I'm not at all happy about it!) for the scenes and suspense he does so well. Someone once told me: Condense, condense, condense. When you have it down as tightly worded as possible, then go back and cross out every other word. Advice I'm obviously not following here, Bob Sheleg ------------------------------ From: hwcs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Miller) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 11 Nov 85 11:35:25 GMT [Replying to the question "Has anyone written a mono-sex society story set on earth?"] "Consider Her Ways" by John Wyndham describes a society without men, only about two or three generations in the future. Most women are non-breeders; a few are specialised "Mothers". (The title is a biblical reference: "Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways"). In the UK, the story is in "Consider Her Ways and Other Stories", published by Penguin Books. I have no idea about publication details elsewhere. The story also contains elements of time-paradox and of Greek tragedy. It is well worth reading, though no masterpiece (in my opinion). Chris Miller, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh ...!ukc!hwcs!chris chris@hwcs.uucp chris@cs.hw.ac.uk ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 14 Nov 85 17:22:17 GMT > A while ago, I read a short story -- wish I could find it again -- > based on a society of all males. They were humans; their > ancestors had been in a space disaster that had stranded them > without women on some previously uninhabited planet. The > survivors of the disaster had cloning technology that they used > for domestic animals, and they adapted the technology to > themselves. The society had become primitive, and no longer > understood their own reproduction, but were able to maintain and > utilize the cloning machinery their ancestors had set up. A > pretty interesting story was placed in this society. Does this > sound familiar to anyone? This sounds like an episode of 'The Starlost.' I think it was an Ellison, but I camn't be too sure. From what I remember, Garth, XX and ZZ (two names I don't remember), travel to a dome where such a society exists. I believe that it had become quite Rome-like. When the female of the trio appeared, she was treated as a goddess. I can't remember what happened in the end, but I do recall Garth the the local leader fighting over the woman. Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!trudel ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" Subject: excreta title request answered >From: ukc!msp@caip.rutgers.edu (M.S.Parsons) >I think it was by Brian Aldiss.... The aliens in >the story bathed in their excrement.... It is the novel _The_Dark_Light-Years_ and it is indeed by Aldiss. Weird, even for him, and not one of his better works. Your time would be better spent by reading something else (:-) marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ From: daemen!fung@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Worzel Fung) Subject: Re: Robotech Date: 13 Nov 85 17:10:58 GMT > Some questions I have: > 1. Is it new Not really. Robotech was the product of an American company; Harmony Gold; marketing 3 Japanese Animation shows called: Super Dimensional Fortess Macross, The Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber Mospeada. All of these shows were produced in 1983-4 by Tasinoko Films. The only link that Harmony Gold binds these stories together, is something called "protoculture". Macross was the only show to mention this, and its definition can be foound in any dictionary/sociology book. > 2. Does it come in comic-book form (if so, where can I > get it?) Yes it does come in Comic Book form. It is put out by a comic company called Comico. There is also the first three episodes out on commercial tape called Macross by Harmony Gold. > 3. Does anyone watch it beside me...has anyone HEARD of it > besides me? If I didn't watch it, how would I know about it. Anyways, I was watching the original (and better at most times) animation a long time before Harmony Gold started to release their version. I'm not knocking Harmony Gold or anything, but they could use a little less narration, an more of the original plotline. If you ever heard of the CF/O or any of the Animation Fanclubs through-out the US and beyond, get in touch with them, there's a bigger fan-following world out there than you can imagine. > A lonely Micronian & Centratti fan....(sp may be wrong) Oh, It's Zentradi by the way. Kenneth Fung UUCP : {decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!sunybcs!daemen!fung ------------------------------ From: daemen!fung@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Worzel Fung) Subject: Re: Captain Harlock Date: 13 Nov 85 17:27:23 GMT > If you have never seen Captain Harlock or seens from it, and you > have watched Macross, Sothern Cross, and Mospeoda (i.e. Robotech), > be warned Captain Harlock is done in a different animation style > from Robotech. who brought you Robotech." They thought that meant > the same animators, but when they saw different, they didn't like > it. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to see too many > Harlocks, so I don't know how well Harmony Gold combined the two > series. Hopefully they've done a good job. > Sean "Yoda" Rouse The first Robotech series (Macross, Southerrn Cross, Mospeada) was released by Tatsinoko Films in 1983-4. Captain Harlock was done in the mid-1970 by Reiji Matsamoto, the same person who did Space Cruiser Yamato in 1976. [Yamato is over a decade old in the running. Only the first two seasons, and the third is ready for release, were redubbed into english for the US.] Queen Millenia was done in 1981-2 again by Reiji Matsamoto. Matsamoto has no obvious ties with the Tatsinoko Studios. The reason for the animation difference is time. In its time, Harlock was, and still is big, because of its story-line. It didn't have the modern state-of-the-art animation like Tatsinoko has now. All in all each show is done differently, and you should keep that in mind. Kenneth Fung UUCP : {decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!sunybcs!daemen!fung ------------------------------ Date: Thu 14 Nov 85 10:46:10-PST From: Rich Zellich Subject: SF Cons List updated SRI-NIC file CONS.TXT has been significantly updated and is available for FTP. SRI-NIC supports the net-standard "ANONYMOUS" Login within FTP, using any password. CONS.TXT is currently 1278 lines/63,320 characters. Enjoy, Rich ------------------------------ From: wucec2!sg2788@caip.rutgers.edu (Steven Greenland) Subject: Re: Space Is Clean Date: 14 Nov 85 16:36:29 GMT kim@analog.UUCP (Kim Helliwell) writes: >it is NOT instinctive to fear or be disgusted at bodily >excretions--primitive man (and children today, for that matter) >were fascinated by their excreta, and such substances even formed a >part of their "magic"--which, ultimately, is what brought on a >patina of the forbidden about the substances. I don't think that instincts really have much at all to do with one person's (or perhaps more accurately, one culture's) disgust with certain substances. A much better explanation of attitudes towards such items comes from the works of Mary Douglas, a cultural anthropologist (at Berkley, I believe) who argues that our feelings about the "unclean" stem from the fact that it is out of place. Various body fluids belong in the body and disturb a basic and hidden need for order when they are outside of their proper place. The theory becomes very interesting and very useful when Douglas applies it to more perplexing cultural problems--like dietary taboos. She explains the prohibition on eating certain animals which appears in many cultures by arguing that the prohibiting culture views the black-listed animal as being, in some way, out of place. Animals without gills and fins should not live in water. Those that live on land should be adapted to walking etc. etc. The use of "unclean" substances in magic and ritual suggests all sorts of interesting ideas about what it going on in the practicing culture. Sounds like an excellent Masters project to me. Are there any Anthropologists out there, or is everybody an engineer? Steve Middlebrook Thanks to Mr. Greenland for the use of his account. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 19 Nov 85 0902-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #441 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Nov 85 0902-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #441 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 441 Today's Topics: Books - Heinlein & Feminist SF/Fantasy & Mono Sex Societies, Magazines - The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction Television - Robotech ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction Date: 14 Nov 85 14:54:59 GMT gail@calmasd.UUCP (Gail B. Hanrahan) writes: >How can anyone read _Podkayne of Mars_ and then say that Heinlein's >juveniles deal honestly with women? Well, he at least dealt honestly with teenaged female protagonists in juvenile fiction. He was writing a blend of two genres that had not been mixed often before. And keep in mind that Heinlein had already been writing and selling (under a pseudonym) teenager fiction in magazines like *Seventeen*, with female protagonists and aimed at a female audience, -- and I believe in magazines edited by women -- so *someone at the time* thought he was dealing honestly with female characters. This was 1962 for ghods's sakes. If it doesn't fit well with our preconceptions now, does that mean it was *wrong* for that time, or does it mean we have changed? (Pop quiz: which do you think *I* think?) In any case, I don't think the image of Podkayne (who I was madly in love with when I was 12 -- would have been on the first ship to Mars to propose if I could have found the ticket office) was any more artificial than the male protagonists. Like what-his-name in *Farmer in the Sky* -- you know, the Eagle Scout, Matt/Mark something.... -- who gets invited by the neighbor's beautiful red-headed daughter to go over to the farm he's building for the afternoon, all alone. When I was 17, I would have accepted instantly, hoping desperately that she meant what my fevered imagination had just caused to flash before my eyes. But this tonto wants to invite her baby sister along too, as a chaperone, no doubt. Of course, if it had gone the way *I* wanted it to go, the book would not have been in my junior high's library.... >The juveniles consistently show female characters in traditionally >feminine roles, hiding their intelligence, and even using sex to >get what they want from men. Gail, I'll tell you a little secret: when I was that age, in 1970, most girls my age were acting in traditionally feminine roles and using sex to get what they want from boys. If my observations of my intro-to-computers course are correct, there is a lot of it going around today. You may not like it -- I certainly don't and didn't -- but it seems a fair observation. >The only exception to this is the female character (Betty?) in _The >Star Beast_, and *she* was portrayed as being bossy (note the >negative connotation!). 1962 again, or something like that. Hell, RAH is only about 7 years younger than my *grandfather.* When he was starting to write, he was praised in many places for his strong female characters. (Read Damon Knight's introduction to *The Past Through Tomorrow.* And read far enough to find the part where DK feels it necessary to explain that these characters are *so* based in reality.) But the world has changed since 1962 -- and the texts of the books have not. We can't be surprized if they don't fit our preconceptions now. If RAH had been writing juveniles in 1962 that fit our concepts now (assuming that he would have written books at any time that fit our concepts, which is another question) then they wouldn't have sold. Let me say that again: they would not have sold. Not to anybody, because no publisher would have bought them, so no-one would have the chance to say "Gee, Ward, I'm worried about the Beaver -- he's reading this trash with women flying starships." Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Feminist sf/fantasy Date: 15 Nov 85 05:24:07 GMT Would the originator of this subject please stand up? I want to thank you. Not only was the discussion interesting, but I've been turned on to a whole new (for me) literary genre. Following some suggestions in reply to your posting, I've read "Northern Girl" by Elizabeth Lynn, "Warrior Woman" by Marion Zimmer Bradley, and am currently reading "Picnic On Paradise" by Joanna Russ. All three are delightful. Would it be possible for you to summarize to the net, or to me by e-mail the replies to your posting? Thanks. Hank Buurman Tektronix Inc. ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 85 20:59 CST From: "David S. Cargo" Subject: monosex societies For completeness sake, also note the short story, "Final Encounter", by Harry Harrison. Reference is made to a society known as the Men. There is passing mention made to an ectogenesis process using the germ plasm of two male cells. I have this story in the hardback GALACTIC EMPIRES Volume II, edited by Brian W. Aldiss, St. Martin's Press 1976. ------------------------------ From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) Subject: Review of 36th Anniversary Issue of F&SF Date: 15 Nov 85 22:50:33 GMT THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION 36th Anniversary Issue (Oct. 1985) magazine review by Davis Tucker I have always liked this magazine, more than its compatriots, because it seemed to be more humanistic, more experimental, and to have a much higher portion of quality, all of which are subjective judgements. But lately, in he past few years, it has seemed to slip from its pinnacle and deteriorated into something barely recognizable as the F&SF we all knew and some of us loved. Probably one of the saddest moments in life is when you realize that your dog must be put out of its misery, and it is difficult to shake the feeling that F&SF is like a blind, incontinent old coon hound who is hanging on in pain, waiting for deliverance. This 36th Anniversary Issue reinforces that feeling. The cover is a lurid adolescent fantasy, the kind that makes you embarrassed to put it on the counter. While those of us who have been reading science fiction for years have grown inured to this type of packaging, it never ceases to amaze me. This month's cover consists of a mermaid-esque woman with blue skin, naked, with Barbie-doll breasts, red eyes, and seaweed hair. Along with a few skulls lying beside her, and the clenched fist of a dying man. Give me a "Heavy Metal" cover any day - even though they're both cheesecake, at least the "Heavy Metal" ones are well-drawn. F&SF covers are routinely bad, even by comparison with its competition, and this is no exception. Why am I not surprised? The first story is a novella by James Tiptree, Jr., "The Only Neat Thing To Do", which is essentially a straightforward juvenile space opera piece. The only distinction between this and Tom Swift is that the protagonist is female (though still 14 years old), and the story is told in the present tense. Other than that, the protagonist, Coati Cass, has her own spaceship, a cheerful adolescent demeanor, and a brain parasite she picks up on the way to rescue some lost spacemen, a parasite that is friendly, helpful, and symbiotic, and also juvenile herself. Things don't end well for the two, but they get to talk a lot along the way, and Coati has the wonderful idea that if Syllobene's people can do for all human bodies what Syllobene can (clear dead tissue, etc, interact at the atomic and molecular level), they could make a lot of money and humans would be happier. On the whole, pretty humdrum stuff, not particularly well-written, not particularly bad, your straight space adventure story, with one '80s kind of twist. Not a remarkable story in any way, and had anyone besides such a master experimentalist as Tiptree been the author, I doubt I would have finished it. What is remarkable is that such a mediocre story by such a stellar writer in such a generally good magazine is even there in the first place. Which is a common theme which runs through this issue. Next is the standard book review column by Algis Budrys. I and many others consider him to be one of the best, if unprolific science fiction writers of his day. His review columns are always good, sometimes great. This one is not exceptional, but it isn't bad. His mention of Richard McKenna (author of "Casey Agonistes") and the re-review of McKenna's masterpiece "The Sand Pebbles", ends with an exhortation for science fiction readers to "read one of our own", which I think is overstating McKenna's relationship with science fiction. As soon as he could get paid decent rates, he quit writing science fiction. There is also a very good review of the new Christopher Priest novel, "The Glamour", which explores some of the reasons why British science fiction is different than American. Next is yet another forgettable piece by a well-known author, Ron Goulart, dealing with a silly haunting of a movie star by the ghost of the Sylvia- Plath-like writer the movie is about. Not particularly funny, which is usually Goulart's saving grace, not particularly madcap, and not particularly science fiction or fantasy. Goulart also makes several serious mistakes in the character of the actress, whose sole adjectives are "dumb", "dippy", and "dopey", when he has her say she's in a "profound stupor". Other laziness is present. Harlan Ellison's movie column, also standard, is typical of him. Ellison must have been a blind epileptic in a previous life, or a Mexican hood, the way he can work himself up into a frenzied lather in such a short time over so little. His target is "Rambo" and various other summer exploitation fare, such an easy target that even a ten-year-old could do this review. And may well have - Ellison is growing increasingly unable to tone himself down for even a moment, and this histrionic screaming deafens the reader into ignoring some very real criticisms he has. I notice he still makes a typographical big deal out of being Jewish, putting "schlep" in italics, and such. His points about "Rambo" have been made before, better, and shorter. It's a shame, because in the past, Ellison has proved to be a very good movie reviewer at times. Despite his interminable "Berserker" regurgitations, Fred Saberhagen can write well, and has. Even if such novels as "The Veils Of Azlaroc" and "Empire Of The East" had flaws, they were certainly not so major as to be debilitating to a generally good work. Saberhagen isn't a hack, by any means, the "Berserker" evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. But his story "As Duly Authorized" is pure and unadulterated hack work. The narrative point of view is interesting (I'm being charitable), but the story, the characters, and the ending evince a shoddy contempt toward his readers. As short as it is, "As Duly Authorized" packs in more laziness, more inconsideration, more stupidity than I have read in a long time. He somehow links punctuational evolution with a kid who is supposed to be a homo superior who can extrude plastic microfilm out of a crease in his forehead. How daring. John Brunner, probably one of the more relevant science fiction writers of the '70s, with such novels as "Stand On Zanzibar", "Shockwave Rider", and "The Sheep Look Up", has a bad case of word-processor infatuation, and unfortunately inflicts it upon us here. Utter and complete silliness, shameful technocombobulation, and far too gee-whiz for anyone older than the age of twelve. I forgot what it's called - some dialogue via network with the alleged ghost of O. Henry, may he haunt Brunner for a week or two until he snaps out of it and starts writing something real instead of this childish dreck. Grrrr. I can't but surmise that one of you out there has given Brunner a Commodore 64, a 300-baud modem, and a Compuserve account, and is having a nice chuckle watching a good author make an utter nincompoop out of himself. For shame. My review of the Asimov column has already been written. As an addendum, the article itself on the history of the discovery of enzymes, yeast, etc., is well-written, informative, and to-the-point. It's a shame his fiction is none of those. It's also a shame he gets paid what he probably does for affectionate parental babbling, when so many good writers don't even get published. He needs a strong, willful editor to discipline him - one gets the distinct feeling of reading the autobiographical doodlings of a spoiled child who could use a good spanking. I think the world of Orson Scott Card. He is one of the few shining lights in modern science fiction, one of the few trying to write science fiction as literature. His story "The Fringe" is an unmitigated failure. Its protagonist is a hopelessly crippled man who designed some means of reclaiming land in a post- holocaust America. He is teaching in a small town which he and others suspect is a center of black market activity, for some poorly-explained reasons. For plot advancement, he uses chance and luck of the Rin-Tin-Tin variety, saved at the last minute. One expects Lassie to make a cameo appearance. Probably even more disappointing for a Card afficionado is that the writing is not very exceptional, as it normally is. The moral of the story is ridiculously simple, reminding one of "Leave It To Beaver". The level of characterization, even of his protagonist and antagonist, is shallow, another thing which is a sad surprise, and the description is almost non-existent. I wonder how long this one sat in the file cabinet, and I hope it paid a lot of bills. Stories like this will seriously affect his reputation. Yet another good writer with a bad story. Somewhere in the middle of all this is a Marion Zimmer Bradley story, rather long, called "Seawrack". I think so little of her work and this particular story that rather than give vent to my real opinions about her inability to write her way out of a paper bag, I'll leave bad enough alone. And believe me, this story is bad enough to be left alone for a long, long time. There is one story by Charles L. Grant that makes this issue not a total waste of time, called "The Children, They Laugh So Sweetly". It is a haunting, bitter, and very well-written tale, the kind of short story that does more than lay a certain situation before the reader and proceed directly to the conclusion. Interestingly enough, Grant is the one author in this issue who isn't a "name" of one kind or another. Can any conclusion be drawn from this? I'm sure many can, but ultimately it makes little difference - except for Grant's story about a failed, unemployed teacher being haunted by the cruel laughter of children, this issue has given no one a reason to buy it, or to read it. Budrys' column aside, there's little wheat and too much chaff. When the mighty have fallen, they take a long time doing it. Watching the death throes of any creature is not a pretty sight, and unless one takes a certain perverse pleasure at the sight of a once-great magazine flopping around on the deck of science fiction like a parasite-ridden gamefish, this 36th Anniversary Issue of The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction has no attraction to anyone who likes science fiction. ------------------------------ From: daemen!fung@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth Worzel Fung) Subject: Re: Re: Robotech Date: 14 Nov 85 17:53:10 GMT >has its advantages :-) ), Southern Cross, and Orguss. It has been You mean Mospeada. Super-Dimensional Century Orguss was done by (I think) Nippon Sunrise. The only connection between Orguss and Macross is that Orguss was done by two of the three original artists. Incidentally, Orguss 2, a professional tape done by the original crew, was to premiere sometime this month. >on the shelves; 'Robotech - The Macross Saga', 'Robotech Masters' >and 'Robotech - The New Age (?)'. Actually, the third comic is: Robotech- The New Generation Kenneth Fung UUCP : {decvax/dual/rocksanne/watmath/rocksvax}!sunybcs!daemen!fung ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 19 Nov 85 0927-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #442 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Nov 85 0927-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #442 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 19 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 442 Today's Topics: Books - Bradley & Hubbard & Square Dance in SF, Television - Amazing Stories & Star Trek & Blake's 7 & The New Twilight Zone & The Death of Dr. Who Miscellaneous - Immortality vs Love ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Nov 85 20:46:48 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Jesse Thorpe's Feminist Authors List On it, Marion Zimmer Bradley is marked only as "women in non-traditional roles or exploration of roles", rather than "radical feminism". This is interesting, because MZB is about as wild-eyed a radical feminist as I would ever hope to read. In fact, I find much of her stuff impossible to read, due to her spouting platitudes. I find myself saying, "Yes, Marion, women are as good/strong/capable/ [your favourite adjective here] as men, I'm not arguing with you, I'm a woman too, I know this already, will you shut up and tell the story!?" just before I fling the book across the room in exasperation. I don't mind an author inserting her/his values into a work -- indeed, this is somewhat inevitable. However, I can't stand the kind of soapbox sermonising that holds up the narrative. MZB fans flame to me personally, please, and I'll be happy to take her apart even further, but that's all I have to say regarding her feminist standpoint... Leigh Ann ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: BATTLEFIELD EARTH by L. Ron Hubbard Date: 15 Nov 85 15:25:27 GMT In case you've wondered where I've been the last couple of weeks, I've been plodding through BATTLEFIELD EARTH, all 1066 pages (paperback edition). The book's been around a few years and was a bestseller, but I was mainly familiar with the author through his scientology cult and thought the book would contain lots of preaching. One can't tell what the book's about from reading the jacket or the inside cover: the publishers chose to put brief reviews there. I don't get particularly interested in reading a book when all I can tell about it comes from review highlights from such luminaries as the "Richmond Times-Dispatch" and the "Atlanta Journal-Constitution". Be that as it may, I got the book at a second-hand bookstore, so it wasn't that terrible an investment. The book begins with a preface by the author, explaining how he got into writing SF in the Golden Age, and why he wrote this book in particular. He explains what he means by pure science fiction, and then states that that's what the reader has in his hands. The action takes place on Earth in the year 3000. Around 2000 Earth was conquered by the Psychlos, gorilla-like beings who dominate the known universe due to their monopoly on teleportation equipment. By 3000, there aren't many humans left, but among the remaining ones is Jonnie Goodboy Tyler, a frontiersman, who leaves his small settlement in the Colorado hills and is captured by Terl, security chief of the Psychlo mining camps on earth. The bulk of the story has to do with Jonnie's battle for personal freedom and then for the freedom of his planet. One of the capsule reviews in the back is by A. E. Van Vogt, who says there's "great pulp music in every line". He's right. The book reminds me a lot of "Doc" Smith's writing, but the material is more polished here. Like many stories from the Golden Age, there's a lot of action, a lot of science, and little or no romance. Women play very minor roles here. There's not a great deal of time spent on characterization either -- more so than most Golden Age books, but less than many current ones. Overall I give the book 3.5 stars (very, very good). In many places it ran 4 stars (excellent, my highest rating) for long stretches, but I rate Julian May's saga of the Pliocene exile as being better overall. If you haven't read this book, I suggest that you read it in spurts, with a pause (a week or more) between major sections. And I would divide the book into three parts: beginning, capture, and escape; Terl strikes back; and the battle for Earth. Duane Morse ...!noao!{terak|mot}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: reed!todd@caip.rutgers.edu (Todd Ellner) Subject: Re: Pointer Request: Square Dance in SF Date: 17 Nov 85 09:50:07 GMT > has anyone ever seen references to Square Dance in SF? I remember > two very short ones, both of RAH: First one in THE ROLLING STONES > (sister Meade goes to a dance), and the other one in Lazarus > Long's memoirs, TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE (in the ``western part'' > where LL founded a settlement on an un- developed planet). And a third RAH : Square Dance is one of the chief forms of entertainment in TUNNEL IN THE SKY. Todd ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!preece@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - The Mission - Alt Date: 15 Nov 85 16:52:00 GMT > How about landing the plane upside down! This puts everyone else's > life in danger, but that's the risk the crew decides to take. > Then the end can have the crew survive or die as tv sees fit. I wasn't really crazy about the ending, either, but I would have been disappointed in any BELIEVABLE ending. That's the whole point of the show, isn't it? It isn't called "True stories of World War II," or "Aviation stories." scott preece ihnp4!uiucdcs!ccvaxa!preece ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: ST Animateds Found!! Date: 18 Nov 85 03:32:07 GMT > Your cup runneth over. Niven (The Slaver Wepaon << good) and > Gerrold (More Tribbles, More Troubles << awful; Bem << brilliant) > both did animated Star Trek episodes. But not Sturgeon or > Ellison. Oops...you is right. My apologies... > The series suffers from a second major problem: retreads. Far too > many episodes are just mediocre sequels or inferior rehashings of > live episodes. The aforementioned Tribbles is perhaps the worst > offender, but there's an awful sequel to Shore Leave, a version of > "Who Mourns for Adonais" with an American Indian God, a version of > "Menagerie" with elephant-like captors, and yet another story > about a cloud creature, not to mention another Harry Mudd story. Hmm...well...I'm not sure, More Tribbles, More Troubles is a sequel, but I don't know if I'd call it a retread. (The sequel to Shore Leave I liked quite a bit...) The rest is quite true... > Some examples of the first problem occur to me: the crew shrinks > (Terratin incidnet), the crew gets old (Loreli Signal), the crew > turns blue (Albatross), Kirk and Spock turn into Creatures from > the Black Lagoon (The Ambergris Element) ... > > Oh, and more: the crew ages backwards, the gravity goes off ... > anything that would be fun to draw, regardless of whether it made > any sense at all. Well, I would consider this a plus, and more or less interpret it the opposite way you did. The animation allowed the authors to write about anything at all, and not worry about "budget constraints." (Incidently, I don't remember Albatross...except, of course, from Monty Python...) Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ Date: Mon 18 Nov 85 07:54:34-MST From: Michi Wada Subject: Blake's 7 Some months back someone requested a list of where Blake's 7 would be shown. It took a while, but my friend finally got a reply from Lionheart as to exactly where Blake's 7 will be shown. Most of the stations are the local PBS stations. A couple of stations are known to be commercial stations, however. Here is the list of where Blake's 7 can be expected to appear. Exact start dates are unknown, except in a few cases where they have already started to broadcast Blake's 7 episodes. Morgantown, West Virginia Witchita, Kansas Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Tulsa, Oklahoma Buffalo, NY Albany, NY Syracuse, NY Hartford, Connecticut Rhode Island (already started) Houston, Texas (already started) Jackson, Mississippi Baton Rouge, Louisiana (already started) Denver, Colorado San Jose, California Bellingham, Washington (commercial station) Santa Fe, New Mexico (commercial station; starts Jan '86) Chicago, Illinois (expected to start in spring of '86) Well, that's the complete list as of this moment. Michi Wada ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 85 12:14 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: New TWZ: Paladin Of The Last Hour Cc: Caro.PA@Xerox.ARPA I thought "The Paladin of the Last Hour" was an original script by Ellison, not based on a short story. I heard him read it on Hour 25 about a year ago. He had wanted to see Burgess Meredith, an old TZ veteran, play Gaspar, and I was disappointed to see Danny Kaye in that role. Lisa ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: The Death of Doctor Who Date: 15 Nov 85 16:28:25 GMT Here are some interesting facts I learned this summer, when I was in England. * The next season will only be 14 episodes- for certain. This was discovered in a telegram written to Lionheart. The BBC got the address wrong and sent it to the next adress on the list: Ron Katz. This short season will be Fall '86 and will be a trial for Doctor Who. For Doctor Who to survive, it will have to be the best season ever. Think about it. Season 18 started out with lousy ratings and won a new audience... but only after 3 or 4 months. Season 23 won't have that long. * Attack of the Cybermen started out with 9 million, yes. This is only natural for a new Doctor and a returning monster, publicised by the release of Revenge of the Cybermen on videotape. But, unlike season 19, which boasted an average of 10 million viewers, Season 22 dropped immediately to 7 million for Vengeance on Varos 1, (I blame Attack, which was simply Eric Saward's worst script.) By the Two Doctors, ratings had dropped to 6 million. * The radio show consisted of one 6 parter called "Slipback." This had 10 minute episodes and featured the Doctor, Peri, and the late Valentine Dyall in his last role as Captain Slarn, a lascivious old man who wants to capture Peri for "his fantasies." It was very entertaining, having a faster pace than anything in the 22nd Season, and very Douglas Adams-ish. Oh yes, it was written by Eric Saward. Music, if I judge rightly, was scarce and done by Roger Limb, who was not credited. * Panopticon VI was terrific. (More later.) * The Cancelled season, which would have been 23, goes like this: Celestial Toymaker story by Graham Williams. This would have been set in Blackpool (hence the ending line of Revelation of the Daleks) and, according to Graham, would have featured the origin of the Toymaker. Rani story by Pip & Jane Baker This is the only story which might go ahead. It was commissioned after the cancellation, so perhaps it doesn't belong in this season. All I know is that it will be a 4 parter and does not feature the Master. Sil story by Philip Martin. Sil and the Ice Warriors meet on a planet of women. The men are all but wiped out. (Some are kept underground.) Meanwhile, somewhere else in the system, there's a planet of men trying to reach the women. Auton story by Robert Holmes This was set to take place in Singapore (JNT wanted a vacation there) and feature the Autons. JNT wanted the Master as well, but Holmes declined. He likes to make his own villains. Judgement of the Daleks by Eric Saward This is pure speculation, unlike the others. Some bright spark has realised that the Dalek titles run by the Bible (i.e., Genesis, Destiny (Man's worldly life), Resurrection (of Christ), Revelation (of John of Patmos), and Judgement (of Davros, most likely) * The real Season 23 will be 14 episodes, (possibly to match the number as well as the budget of Tripods. If this is the case, look for lots of effects, and possibly shallow plot) and will feature: An Umbrella theme of a great threat to Gallifrey which will be set up and resolved by Robert Holmes, in a beginning four parter, and an ending two parter. The basic format will be 4,4,4,2. The remaining two adventures will be written by Philip Martin and one other writer. This season will be very well written, if I am to believe Mr. Martin, as if the future of Doctor Who depends upon it, which it does. It will feature NO returning monsters (Thank goodness!) I'm going to post my reviews of Season 22 next, if anybody cares for my opinion. Most of my reviews will be negative, and I'll try to be less spoiler than the Monthly is. Charles Kupperman ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: Re: Immortality vs Love Date: 14 Nov 85 17:11:30 GMT ramsay@argon.UUCP (R.Ramsay) writes: >We've had the articles about immortality & sex being mutually >exclusive, now what about immortality and love? I don't mean >society wise, but - well, if you were made immortal, eternal youth, >the whole bit, would you be able to fall in love? Would you let >yourself fall in love? Would you no longer feel it a workable >proposition? Why does nobody (nobody I know) feel they are equal to >immortality? Is it good old Hubris, or actually unworkable? I feel >very strongly about this, having written a novel on the effects of >an individual's immortality. I eventually came to (among other >things) the conclusion that you had to be some kind of psychopath >to survive an immortal lifetime, and thus the sort of person that >*has* to dominate. One last thought. My immortal had the power to >'bestow' immortality. Who gets to choose? There are a number of immortal characters in SF (including the guy in Life, the Universe, and Everything who has decided to pass eternity by insulting everybody in the universe in alphabetical order), but perhaps the most common class of immortals are the vampires. Granted, vampires are not quite immortal, but they do not age and they're damned hard to kill, so I think they fit. Oddly enough, vampires in SF very often are the reverse of the character you describe. They start off as murderous monsters, but over the years, they achieve a level of wisdom and "humanity". The classic example of such a vampire is Dracula in Fred Saberhagen's books (Thorn, An Old Friend of the Family, The Holmes-Dracula File, and the Dracula Tapes). The man started out as Vlad the Impaler, but by the mid-sixties, his sadism is gone. He falls in love with mortal women, even though the love is tragic (because she will grow old, but he won't). He protects the weak, and fights for justice (vigilante-style, of course, but that's deeply imbedded in the whole genre, not to mention most of literature). The same kind of transformation was beginning to happen in Marvel's Tomb of Dracula comic books in the mid-70's (before the series was cancelled). The Count was still an aristocrat who thought of humans as peasant cattle, but he had acquired a wife and child whom he loved and protected. In time, perhaps, he would have evolved further. I could go on with examples, since I have read many modern SF pieces about vampires, but I don't think it's necessary. Immortality may corrupt some humans, but it is a civilizing influence on vampires. Why the difference? Because personality reverses make a better story. There ARE immortals who don't change (K.E.Wagner's Kane is an example), but what's the point of a story where things are more the less the same at the end as the beginning? (This tells you what I think of the Kane books.) For a good piece of literature, time must have some kind of effect, and that means the immortal must get better or worse. At any rate, his or her situation must change somehow. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 Nov 85 0909-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #443 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Nov 85 0909-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #443 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 20 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 443 Today's Topics: Books - Brin & DeCamp & Hodgell & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs) & Thieve's World (2 msgs) & Starquake, Magazines - Review of 1985 Short SF, Miscellaneous - Immortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Note for Brin fansD Date: 18 Nov 85 19:48:00 GMT I have just finished fondling my newly received trade (hardcopy) edition of David Brin's STARTIDE RISING, published by Phantasia Press. The cover is disappointing to me; it's well executed but it looks like a battle scene from Star Trek VI -- The Nebula Strikes Back. There is a half-interesting, half-embarassing foreword by Edward Bryant and an interesting frontispiece by David Cherry. Yet, despite my reservations about the cover art, I LIKE this book. Many of you know from my previous postings that I am a fan of this book, and to those of you who see books as having some life and character of their own, verily I say, this book deserved the hardcover edition. Brin fans, take a look for yourselves. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: hpcnof!lrb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 13 Nov 85 22:49:00 GMT >> (Gordon Letwin, who is someone else, asks:) >> I'm looking for the title/author of a SF-fantasy novel in which >> a modern man encounters the Norse mythical gods (while he's >> freezing to death, I think.) He's carried across the Bifrost >> where they're getting ready for Ragnarok - the final battle with >> the Frost Giants. He helps them defeat the FG's with an atomic >> bomb... >From: Stephen Balzac >Sounds vaguely like the (In)Compleat Enchanter by L. Sprague de >Camp, but I can't be sure. Its been years since I read it, and I >don't really remember the ending. The description by G. Letwin above closely matches the plot of de Camp's "The Incompleat Enchanter", except for the atomic bomb part. I seem to remember that the Norse part was only one third of the book. The hero also visits 2 other mythological worlds. I also seem to remember that this novel later came out as one of two novels bound together in a single paperback with the title "The Compleat Enchanter", with the other novel being "The Iron Castle" Someone please correct this if it is in error. (de Camp had a co-author for these novels by the name of Fletcher Pratt(?) ). Speaking of L. Sprague de Camp, my alltime favorite SF novel by any author is his "Lest Darkness Fall", about an archaeologist who finds himself in Rome about 400 A.D. He takes it upon himself to single-handedly prevent the Dark Ages from falling. His time is about equally divided between meddling in politics and somewhat successful attempts at introducing technology. The only real fantasy part of the book is the first 2 pages where he goes back through time. The rest is entirely logical and never leaves you thinking "Oh come on now! Do you expect me to believe......". It is also one of the funniest books I have ever read. Every time I read it (10 times now?) I am greatly disappointed that it comes to an end. It is the kind of book that gets you spending your time thinking up possible sequels. Larry Bruns, HP, Colo. Networks Oper. R&D Ft. Collins, CO ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 85 07:25:50 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Re: cats, sequels, confusion in God Stalk Someone I dont remember wrote: >>>A crazed plot without "sequel warnings" combined with insufferably >>>cute talking cats. Godstalk is a poor womans version of Norton's >>>"Breed to Come". Not recommended. >> >>WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I *never* in the 5 times that I have read >>the book found "cute talking cats". Nor did I think it was crying >>for a sequel. >From: stever%cit-vlsi@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) >Typical scene: > Jame wakes up. large object on Jame's chest. what could it be? >It is a cat. Jame closes eyes again and contemplates Kencyr racial >memory of times when her claws were not so recessed. Why is it so >hard to breathe? oh yeah, there is a cat on chest. > She was trying to dislodge the beast, who only responded with a >loud purr, when a woman darted into the room crying "Boo, you great >lump!"... and so on Be warned. There was one scene where she couldn't remember what the thing on her chest was... that was in the beginning, when she didnt know where she was. I didn't consider the cat Boo worth noticing because it did nothing for the plot, it was atmospheric. (visions of flying cats... but I digress :-) Also, I dont consider writing cutely about cats to be "cute talking cats", which is what I was objecting to. None of the catlike beings in the book talked. And Boo wasn't cute, he was a godawful nuisance... >As for sequels, Hodgell has a talent for names: Perimal Darkling, >Archiem, Cleppety, Marplet, Tai-Weir, Tai-Sondre, Tai-Tastigon, The >Bay of Benitar.. > >Hundreds and hundreds of names, all good and confusing. Did I miss >an explanation somewhere? Maybe I should read one of the three >Appendices now? Will it spoil anything? (yes.). too bad. By the >end of the book everything is clear? I like names. (maybe Im wierd.. I collect interesting names) I also found little problem following the background and storyline. I didnt think the appendices spoiled anything... the only thing I think it could have spoiled was the fact that Torisen Black Lord *is* her brother, and this I had already figured out... What does a preponderance of names have to do with sequels? The book had many characters, all of whom needed names; the land had many cities, all of which needed names. I dont understand your objection. There was also a cast of characters listed at the front of the book, and maps with all the names on them... >>As for it being a rewrite of "Breed to Come", I can't say, cause I >>have never read that particular book of Norton's. > >I guess you have a treat in store. Both books are about catlike >beings exploring strange cities in a world where Man is not as we >know him. I have read much of norton... I will have to see if this book is anywhere in the combined libraries of my roomies... /amqueue Anne Marie Quint ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 85 9:53:19 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: Name That Mega-Building The excessively large building/city which includes nightroaming spouse-swapping sounds like Robert Silverberg's collection/novel, THE WORLD INSIDE. [ Let me throw in a gratis recommendation for Silverbob's story, "Multiples", the THE CONGLOMEROID COCKTAIL PARTY collection -- one of those rare recent stories where his stylistic tendencies really work well with his idea, for a mind-blowing and moving story ... ] Other Big Building stories, while we're on the subject: Thomas Disch, 334 Niven & Pournelle, OATH OF FEALTY John Crowley, ENGINE SUMMER [the Little Belair warren ] Daniel Dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Tue 19 Nov 85 12:34:24-EST From: Bard Bloom Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #438 Re: Gladly the Crosseyed Bear [(Attempt to spoil that which cannot be further spoiled) warning] The book is _Patterns_Of_Chaos_, by Kapp I believe. I was looking for trashy SF novels in the MITSFS library a week ago; and finding _PoC_ was success beyond my wildest dreams. The book is (with difficulty) the worst that I've read in a long time. It uses most of the worst cliches of space opera, and does so very badly. Recommended as insecticide. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 1985 12:58:56-EST (Tuesday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Thieve's World I believe that there is only one Thieve's World novel out: "Beyond Sanctuary" by Janet Morris. I have it on order, but haven't gotten it yet. About all I know is that it is primarily about Tempus. There are a few other books/stories out about characters (Jamie the Red, Lythande), but not in connection to Thieve's World. ------------------------------ From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Re: Thieve's World Date: 20 Nov 85 01:02:23 GMT I read that Janet Morris has three books out all titles beginning with the word Beyond. The one's I remember are Beyond Sanctuary and Beyond Wizardwall. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Nov 85 10:49 PST From: William Daul / McDonnell-Douglas / APD-ASD From: Subject: STARQUAKE AVAILABILITY? Is it out yet? I tried looking in 2 book stores and one dedicated SF-Bookstore and no one had a copy of it. If it is out, when did it appear? Thanks, Bi\\ ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Review of 1985 Short SF Date: 10 Nov 85 21:13:00 GMT Well, all the magazines with 1985 cover dates are out. Since short fiction is generally overlooked on the net, I thought I'd post a list of recommendations of what I thought was good, perhaps to be used as a starting point for those of you who want to review the shorter material, whether for Hugo/Nebula/Locus Poll/AnLab or if you just want to keep up with some of what's going on in the mags. My list, like any list of recommendations, is subjective. Its contents run the range from hard sf to fantasy to "literary" sf. The only common thread is that I think it stands out from the rest and is worth reading. The source universe consistes of ANALOG, ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE, FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION, and FANTASY BOOK. Obviously, this universe is not complete, my frantic reading time is limited. It does not include material from OMNI, AMAZING, TWILIGHT ZONE, slick mainstream mags such as PLAYBOY that sometimes publish SF, original anthologies, or the many small publications that publish SF. I've used two categories, Highly Recommended and Recommended, to give the list some differentiation and I've tried to balance a desire to keep the lists as short as possible while including everything I judged to be of similar quality. There are also occasional comments. On the whole, I feel there are fewer outstanding stories than last year, but more very, very good ones. Competition is particularly keen with the novellas, which stands to reason, because an editor has to think thrice about devoting that much space in one of their publications. (I'm happy to note that the number of novellas in F&SF, Analog, and Asimov's is up to 18, from last year's 15. I enjoy the novella format because of its balance of conciseness and complexity.) Abbreviations: AN = ANALOG AS = ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE FS = FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION FB = FANTASY BOOK all listings alpha by author within category (unless I mis-order) Novellas: Highly Recommended "Green Mars" Kim Stanley Robinson AS 9/85 "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai" Roger Zelazny AS 7/85 Recommended "To the Storming Gulf" Gregory Benford FS 4/85 "When Winter Ends" Michael Kube-McDowell FS 7/85 "Storming the Chaos" Rudy Rucker and Bruce Sterling AS mid-12/85 "Sailing to Byzantium" Robert Silverberg AS 2/85 "Green Days in Brunei" Bruce Sterling AS 10/85 Novelettes: Highly Recommended "The Shadow of Starlight" Gael Baudino FS 4/85 "Unferno" George Alec Effinger AS 7/85 (author of "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, Everything", 1985 Hugo nominee.) "Stone Lives" Paul diFillipo FS 8/85 "Bluff" Eric G. Iverson AN 2/85 (has started publishing under real name, Harry Turtledove) "Portraits of His Children" George R.R. Martin AS 11/85 "The Sport of Kings" Edward F. Shaver FS 11/85 (very funny) "All This, and Heaven, Too" James Tiptree, Jr. AS mid-12/85 "When the High Lord Arrives" Eric Vinicoff AN 4/85 (Excellent.) Recommended "Don't Get Around Much Anymore" Ray Brown AN 3/85 "The Fringe" Orson Scott Card FS 10/85 "War of the Roses" Karen Joy Fowler AS 12/85 "George Washington Slept Here" Charles Harness AN 7/85 (author of last year's excellent "Summer Solstice", Hugo nominee) "Trader's Secret" Charles Sheffield AN 8/85 "The Running Back From Yuggoth" William R. Trotter FB 6/85 "The Road Not Taken" Harry Turtledove AN 11/85 "The Dragon's Boy" Jane Yolen FS 9/85 Short Stories: Highly Recommended "You Never Asked My Name" Brian Aldiss FS 11/85 "Final Performance" Kevin J. Anderson FS 1/85 "The Persistence of Memory" Gael Baudino FS 11/85 "Send No Money" Susan Casper and Gardner Dozois AS mid-12/85 (very funny) "The Poplar Street Study" Karen Joy Fowler FS 6/85 "The Monk's Tale" Esther M. Freisner FB 6/85 "Programmed for Destruction" John M. Gribbin AN 3/85 "Non-Interference" Eric G. Iverson AN 7/85 "Scenes from A Shadowplay" Ian McDonald AS 7/85 "The Basic Universe" Jerry Oltion AN 8/85 "Fermi and Frost" Frederick Pohl AS 1/85 "Siblings" Larry Powell AN 4/85 "Cycles" Don Sakers AN 1/85 "Dinner in Audoghast" Bruce Sterling AS 5/85 (Outstanding.) "An Infestation of Angels" Jane Yolen AS 11/85 Recommended "Time's Rub" Gregory Benford AS 4/85 "The Proud Foot of the Conqueror" Reginald Bretnor FS 7/85 "Snow Job" Gardner Dozois/Michael Swanwick AS 10/85 "Preliminary Notes on the Jang" Lisa Goldstein AS 5/85 "The Final Assassin" Gary Killworth AS 1/85 "The Day We Really Lost the War" Richard Mueller AS 9/85 A couple of other items from the mags: Game Review for "Paranoia" -- AS, 10/85 "Stay alert. Trust no one. Keep your laser handy." Articles from Analog: "The Lost Dimensions of Reality" by John Gribbin 4/85 "The Garden of Cosmological Delights" by G.F.R. Ellis/Tony Rothman 5/85 "Just How Dangerous is the Galaxy" by David Brin 7/85 "In the Fullness of Time" by John G. Cramer 10/85 Enjoy. Comments by E-mail; let's not clog up the net. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 85 21:09:05 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Immortality To: kcl-cs!ramsay@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU >From:kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) >I eventually came to (among other things) the conclusion that you >had to be some kind of psychopath to survive an immortal lifetime, >and thus the sort of person that *has* to dominate. I imagine that one would live an eternal lifetime the same way as any other - one day at a time. I don't see why living thousands of years would drive anyone crazy, or why anyone would have to be crazy to want to live thousands of years (I'm not sure which you meant). I wouldn't mind living for a few million years, as long I was healthy. I've always thought it would be a neat practical joke, once we all have immortality, to send someone back to the precambrian in a time machine and strand him there, make him 'walk' back. Has anyone written anything like this? ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 21 Nov 85 0848-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #444 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 21 Nov 85 0848-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #444 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 21 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 444 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Gunn & Story Request, Television - Star Trek & The New Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - SILiCON & How to Get Published ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 17:34 EST From: Ken Raeburn Subject: Re: Immortality vs Love Has anyone read the Well of Souls series by (Chalker, was it?)? It's about a guy named Nathan Brazil, who, according to his own accounts, has been around longer than the universe itself, and in fact he has to take on the responsibility of destroying the current one and starting a new one. The computer that runs the universe simply will not let him die, as he is its maintainer. He seemed to still have the ability to love after going through a lot worse than he would even want to have anyone else live through. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 14:39:35 PST From: lah%miro@BERKELEY.EDU (Commander RYN Leigh Ann Hussey) Subject: Re: Story request The person who answered the request for the witch story neglected to mention one amusing part of that story: it was not a witches' convention, it was a witches covention. The best part: the program, listing the topics of discussion and the advertisements. The other two stories in my edition, (_The Witching Hour_, Dell, 1970) are pretty good also (on similar subjects) but I liked the second one, "The Beautiful Brew", best -- it's about a brewery owner whose mysterious brew-master (named Dion), has created the perfect beer -- with one catch: the head shapes itself into a beautiful nude woman, making the beer unsalable in the opinion of the more conservative board members. Everything you always wanted to know about brewing... If you can't find either book edition, but you have access to back issues of _Beyond_, the covention story appeared there as "Sine of the Magus" (a much better title!) in the May 1954 issue. Leigh Ann ------------------------------ Date: 20 Nov 85 09:57:16 EST (Wednesday) Subject: Help! I need to know!! From: Mike James X27798 I am trying to remember a book that I read one summer and can think of the name or the author. It was about an invasion into America by the Chinese/Japanese and a group of scientists in America who used high technology to create their own new religion and attempt an overthrow of the invaders. All I remember is that they had found the connection between gravity, magnetism, and electricity and used this as the basis for their "magic" and weapons. Please Help! Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 11:00 PST From: Dave Platt Subject: Star Trek on videocassette Re Andy Thorton's question about Star Trek on videocassette... I've seen a copy of "The Menagerie" on cassette recently... but of course it's in the US format (VHS/NTSC). The store I was in seemed to have a fair collection of ST episodes available for rental, as well as all three movies. I didn't see the blooper compilation, but I suspect that careful searching of some of the glossy fanzines might turn up someone who has it. Given that the US video format is different than that used in Europe (and Britain too?), it might be easier all around to locate a copy of the bloopers on 8- or 16-millimeter film, and use one of the commercial services that can transfer films to video in whatever format you can use. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 18:18 CST From: Jerry Bakin Subject: Paladin of the LOST Hour To clarify Lisa Caro's message, I think what I meant to say was that the script of Paladin... was based on an original Harlan Ellison short story. From last week's Hour 25, I got the impression it has since been published in the TZ magazine, but having never read the magazine, I don't know if it publishes scripts or stories although I suspect the latter. Anyway, I too was a bit disappointed to se Danny Kaye, fine actor that he is portraying Gaspar, his portrayal seemed a little off, didn't have all the venom I remember Harlan giving it. In fact, I have been disappointed at the direction of every TZ made so far. They all seem so one dimensional. I would have much preferred seeing Harlan -- a fine reader to listen to -- just sit in a chair and read the thing. Talk about zoning TV audiences! Jerry. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Nov 85 16:15:52 est From: Steve Strassmann Subject: SILiCON Some of you who like role-playing games might be interested in SILiCON I, a unique role-playing convention to be held in the Boston area on March 21-23, 1986. It's brought to you by the Society for Interactive Literature (SIL), the folk who've brought you the Rekon games at past Boskone cons. Rekon was so successful (roughly doubling every year), we decided to hold our own convention with 6 diverse, fun, real-time-real-space-real-weird games. A SILiCON membership includes a character in one of the games, a professionally run film program, ongoing costume contest, con suite, panel discussions, and more! Each of the six SILiCON I games is a full Rekon-style game designed for 60-80 players, and each will run non-stop from Friday night to Sunday afternoon. When you arrive, you'll receive a packet describing your character, along with his/her/its possessions, a description of a crisis or two, and a description of your character's objectives and abilities, and (maybe) allies and enemies. Depending on which game you choose, your character could be from the ancient past or the far future, a minor deity in Armageddon or a virus in a sore throat. For the rest of the weekend, you run around the hotel cooperating and competing with other players as you meet them. For more information about the games, plus a personality questionnaire and registration form, send netmail to me or SIL. I'm not on SF-lovers, so if you have any fun commentary or questions about the game, please CC it to me. Me: SIL: straz@mit-mc almond_b%h-sc4@harvard (or) straz@media-lab.mit.edu Steve Strassmann Society for Interactive Literature 3 Ames St. 130 Morrison Ave. Cambridge, MA 02139 Somerville, MA 02144 ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: How to Get Published, One View Date: 17 Nov 85 22:12:00 GMT Getting published seems to be a function of four things: 1. Knowing proper manuscript format and submission procedures. 2. Sending your story to the right markets. (Knowing the markets.) 3. Proper selection of story material. 4. Good writing. Three personal qualities also seem to help: a professional attitude, persistence, and a capacity to absorb rejection -- really three sides of the same coin. Manuscript format/submission procedures. Editors tend to be buggy about this. The points may seem trivial to some, but why antagonize your most important reader, the one who can BUY your story, needlessly? Your manuscript should be CLEAN. Very few typos, with those that exist corrected neatly with pen. Do NOT use white-out; instead line through and correct. White paper, 8-1/2 by 11. One side only. Typed or printed from word processor. If printed, letter quality printer is usually STRONGLY preferred. (If you read 50 manuscripts a day, you'd be picky about your eyesight too.) In either event, use good black ribbons that produce type that is easy to read. Format can be found in THE FICTION WRITER'S MARKET, by Writer's Digest. Generally, 25 lines per page, left-hand margin 1-1/2 inches from edge, 60-space line (70-space if using elite -- 12 characters per inch -- type.) DOUBLE SPACE your manuscript. First line about 1-1/2 inches from top of page. Upper-right corner of every page should have a slug line with name and page number. Some editor's like a key word from your story, which is helpful if you have a common last name. (This is to guard against manuscripts getting inter-mixed.) Either Brunet -- # or Brunet/Guidelines/#. First page should have title about half way down, centered, all caps. Next line is "by", next line is your name as you would want it to appear in the magazine. (Don't use a pseudonym unless you've got a very good reason.) Double double-space after name, indent, and begin text. Do not hyphenate at the end of a line; either run it long or run it short. Indicate italics by underlining, even if your word processor *can* do it. Upper left corner of title page, indented to five spaces of the left margin, is a block containing your name, address and phone number. Even with your phone number and flush with the right hand margin is word count. Word count is NOT the actual number of words, it's a measure of space, i.e., 5 characters and a space. At the format given above, you have 250 words per page (300 with elite spacing). Pro-rate for partial pages. Round to the nearest hundred. Example: 1,700 words. Cover letters are not necessary, but most people like to write them. Keep them short, 1-4 paragraphs. Any previous publishing credits, awards, or participation in well-known workshops may be mentioned. The fact that all your friends and relatives liked your story, you hope that the editor will like your story, Larry Niven once asked you to pass the butter, etc., should not be. Do not write "cute" cover letters. Ever. This includes tongue-in-cheek put-downs of yourself and your writing. Mail your manuscript in a 10x13 envelope, even if you can save 14 cents by folding it into a #10 business envelope. First class mail is recommended; there is a special fourth-class manuscript rate, but then legally you can't include a letter without paying extra, it takes longer to deliver, and it can get squished with umpteen-hundred parcels. ENCLOSE A SELF-ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE with the correct postage already attached. This is so the editor can return your manuscript if it is not bought. Most editors prefer to receive orignial manuscripts, but do keep xerox copies for your files in case of loss. Knowing the markets. FICTION WRITER'S MARKET is probably the best single source. LOCUS, the SFWA Bulletin (available to non-members by subscription), and THE WRITER'S MARKET are some of the other sources. Read as many of your target publications as is possible. Make a list of the ones that seem to be a fit with your story. Salient points to look for include length of works published, amount paid, and sub-genre. Evaluate your story realistically. Does it have a chance for PLAYBOY or OMNI? If not, don't waste the postage. On the other hand, if it doesn't seem out of the question, go for it. Read the magazine requirements carefully, you're unlikely to sell a sword-and-sorcery tale to ASIMOV's or a gadget-story to F&SF. Be aware of the smaller markets such as FANTASY BOOK, PANDORA, etc., but use them after you've exhausted the "better" markets. Selection of material. Just as there are cliches of speech, there are cliches of material. The current topic that editors are inundated with is computer game stories, either "...and it was only a computer game, after all." or "...and it wasn't a computer game, after all." Deals with the devil, Arthurian re-tellings, post-holocaust stories, sword-and-sorcery quests, etc., must be EXCEEDINGLY well done to be published by an unknown author. An editor can take those same topics from an established author because the author's name will help sell the magazine. Otherwise, the story isn't sufficently new and fresh, because the editor has already seen 20 in the same week. (Stan Schmidt had a good editorial on this subject in the 11/85 issue of ANALOG.) To break in, it helps to have a fresh, new idea, characters, and plot. Good writing. Mentioned last, because there is a fair amount of good writing out there that falls afoul of the previous points. Two books that are helpful are THE ELEMENTS OF STYLE by Strunk & White, and WRITING AND SELLING SCIENCE FICTION by The Science Fiction Writers of America. Also get a copy of CONSTRUCTION SCIENTIFICTION AND FANTASY by George Scithers et al. It can be ordered from AMAZING and the advice is good generally, not just for AMAZING. Also, read John Gardner's THE ART OF FICTION, particularly the chapters on common errors and technique. Also, read, Read, READ. Everything. SF and mainstream. Mystery. Classics. Learn how the language is used. Learn how things work and why things work. Join a writing group, whether it's a class at a local college/university or just a bunch of writers getting together on their own. The criticism can be painful, especially at first, but it's the best and fastest way to develop. Soft, friendly criticism is of no use to the writer (and neither is malicious destructive criticism.) Hard to believe, but most criticism by non-writers/ editors, even if they are heavy readers, is usually next to worthless for finding your flaws, simply because they don't have the critical vocabulary. Phrases like passive voice, exposition-in- dialogue, are uncontrolled point-of-view shift, the bread-and-butter of manuscript critiques, as are discussions about point-of-entry, word choice, rhythms, etc. Revise, revise, revise, until you've done the best you think you can do with the material at hand. Then, send it out. Personality points. Persistence, professional attitude, capacity for rejection. Occasionally a writer lucks out and starts selling right away. That is extremely rare. For the SF magazines, 1/100 stories gets published, and the fraction is much worse for new writers in the "slush pile". R.A. MacAvoy wrote a novel a year for 15 years before TEA WITH THE BLACK DRAGON hit it. (She also did not write short fiction, which is statistically the best way to break in. Bad as it is, it's MUCH better than the outlook for mainstream writers.) (A typical break-down on the contents of the slushpile: 50% is illiterate. 30% has major problems identifiable within 1-3 pages. 15% is competently written, but nothing special about story. 5% is worth a second look, a fraction of 1% will get published, the remainder will get positive rejection notes.) Triumph when you get a hand-written/typed note at the bottom of a form letter rejection. Editor's don't waste time unless you're close. When you get a rejection, send your manuscript out to the next market right away, don't stick it on the shelf until you've exhausted every market. (This assumes you didn't send your story out until it was polished and you were satisfied with it the first time.) Keep records of where your manuscript has gone. Keep records on your expenses. DISCLAIMER: I am not a CPA or tax accountant. You can write off your expenses on a Schedule C even if you don't make a sale at first. Current law only says you have to show a profit 3 years out of 5. What you must be able to do is show the IRS that you're pursuing writing seriously. (A professional writer sure as hell figures in the financial angle; otherwise, they remain amateurs or starve.) Gasp. Long winded even for me. Apologies to all concerned with volume of net traffic. Replies, flames, queries, etc. by E-mail welcome. Hmm. It also looks as if I've blown my self-imposed cover. Well, I still reserve the right to criticise Asimov even if my best isn't up to his worst. Yes, I write, and yes, I've made a sale with another pending, but no, I haven't got the system wired, and I can't vouch for any of the above beyond the level of it being what I think I know. Once I get to the point where major SF magazines are buying half of what I write, then maybe I'll think about making stronger claims. Until then, see y'all in the slush pile. Hi yo, wombats, away! Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 25 Nov 85 0938-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #445 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Nov 85 0938-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #445 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 25 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 445 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Delany & Hodgell & Piper & Clones & Some Comments Requested & Some Reviews & Thieve's World & Shaver Mysteries, Television - Robotech, Miscellaneous - Immortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: "With a Tangled Skein" by Piers Anthony Date: 18 Nov 85 22:02:44 GMT The Incarnations of Immortality series started with a great deal of promise. "On a Pale Horse" avoided Anthony's usual level of patronizing women and gave us a nice helping of gentle whimsy. ("So you're Death...I've heard so much about you.") The second book in the series, "Bearing an Hourglass", unfortunately succumbed to raging Xanth disease. Whimsy turned to cutesiness and any pretense of suspension of disbelief went out the window. Chronos, the embodiment of Time, was supposedly contending for the salvation of humanity, but he was just acting silly. With the series tied at one good and one bad, I was happy to find the third book in hard cover, sitting quietly on the "New Book" shelf of our local library. I read it eagerly, almost in one sitting. Folks, I have bad news... The story concerns a woman named Niobe who eventually becomes part of the immortal incarnation of Fate (Fate is actually three women in one body: Clotho who spins the threads of life, Lachesis who measures them, and Atropos who cuts them off). Niobe happens to be the grandmother of Luna (seen in both of the previous books). Alas, Niobe also happens to be the most beautiful woman of her generation, which gives Anthony all the excuse he needs to trot out his usual female stereotyping. Sigh... The book has little story to it. The usual things happen. We are treated to another episode of "Let's Figure Out How to Get to Nature's House" which is suspiciously like the traditional "Let's Figure Out How to Get into the Good Magician's Castle" from the Xanth series. But this could be forgiven if the book had a satisfactory ending. It does not. Niobe goes to a great deal of blatantly artificial trouble to find an obvious answer to an uninteresting problem. The final chapter is so mind-bogglingly contrived that I could flame about it at length if I weren't too polite to spoil it for possible readers. Recommendation: if you are curious about the story and how the series is unfolding, GET THE BOOK OUT OF THE LIBRARY. Do not spend hard-earned money on this turkey. If you have not read anything of the series, do look at "On a Pale Horse", but leave the other two alone. Heaven knows what Anthony will do with the next book "Wielding a Red Sword" about Mars. The few glimpses we've seen of Mars in the three published books are tantalizing, and I will remain optimistic... Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: ulysses!amw@caip.rutgers.edu (Andrew Wild) Subject: Samuel R. Delaney Date: 19 Nov 85 15:28:41 GMT Summary: Wanted: "The Jewel Hinged Jaw" 1977 "The American Shore" 1978 Both by Samuel R. Delany, published by Dragon Press (NY). Nitty-gritty: A friend of mine in Scotland has written me a sad tale, about how he used to own "The Jewel Hinged Jaw" but lent it out and has never seen it, or the borrower, again. Probably wise, in the borrowers case. After sufficient crawling he asked me whether I could track down anything. Not especially a book-worm, I tried Forbidden Planet in NY. No luck. So I'm widening my search and asking the collective conscience now reading. If you have one spare, or know of one lying around relatively unattended, you will get in touch, won't you ? In the words of one of Daves favourite songs, "Grovel, Grovel, Beg, Kneel, Sponge, Crawl". PS: If you're in Europe, try Dave directly at db%cstvax@ucl-cs.arpa or ..!mcvax!ukc!hwcs!cstvax!db Andrew Wild. Net: {ucbvax, vax135, seismo}!ulysses!amw Phone: (201) 582 5810 Snail: MH 5E-103, Bell Labs @ Murray Hill, NJ. ------------------------------ From: Michael O'Brien Date: 21 Nov 85 10:56:45 PST (Thu) Subject: Re: God Stalk Hmm. Once it's mentioned, I can see how those who are allergic to cats (in SF and otherwise) might not like this book. Myself, based on imagination and writing ability I would rate it as one of the best new fantasies of the last several years. Certainly it borrows more from Fritz Leiber than from Jack Vance, and is not so good as either at the top of their respective forms, but, though derivative, it has enough new ideas to put it head and shoulders above the rest of the shabby group. P.C.'s portrayal of Tai-Tastigon the city is more interesting than her portrayal of the Kencyr and their millenia of pissing and moaning and wailing, so I'm uneasy about how well the second book will go. The first book, though, merits attention from anyone who shares the view that Lankhmar is a wonderful place to read about, but a terrible place to live OR visit. Summary: I agree with /amqueue, as usual. ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish) Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 21 Nov 85 15:39:08 GMT > Speaking of L. Sprague de Camp, my all time favorite SF novel by > any author is his "Lest Darkness Fall", about an archaeologist who > finds himself in Rome about 400 A.D. He takes it upon himself to > single-handedly prevent the Dark Ages from falling. His time is > about equally divided between meddling in politics and somewhat > successful attempts at introducing technology. The only real > fantasy part of the book is the first 2 pages where he goes back > through time. The rest is entirely logical and never leaves you > thinking "Oh come on now! Do you expect me to believe......". It > is also one of the funniest books I have ever read. Every time I > read it (10 times now?) I am greatly disappointed that it comes to > an end. It is the kind of book that gets you spending your time > thinking up possible sequels. > > Larry Bruns, HP, Colo. Networks Oper. R&D Ft. Collins, CO Quite right! This is one of my alltime favorites also...I have read it about 7 times, the first when I was about 13. It never fails to get me so involved that I can't put it down! Another good book in a similar vein is "Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen" by H. Beam Piper. Again, this is one of the greats of SF. The plot is entirely plausible, A Pennsylvania policeman accidently gets transported to an alternate time/dimension by accidently wandering into the time bubble of a time travelling race (while in operation). He awakes in a North America where the Aryan migration went east, not west, and crossed the Bering Strait and settled North America. The book is fast moving and entertaining...I would highly recommend it! Darren Kadish ------------------------------ From: wucec2!rhw9906@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hill Wyatt Jr) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 18 Nov 85 22:01:10 GMT I beg to differ, but I don't think Ellison had anything to do with "The Starlost" after they butchered the hell out of his original concept. The only story he wrote was "Phoenix without Ashes", and he put his Cordwainer Bird pseudo on that sucker after they drove it into the ground. Perhaps it was a concept by Ellison that some author embellished on, but I doubt it. On the subject of cloning societys, anybody ever read "Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang" by Kate Wilheim(?)? It was a VERY good treatment of a society set up by cloning, and included the loss of originality/creativity in the clones. Rick Wyatt ------------------------------ From: linus!dnj@caip.rutgers.edu (David N. Juitt) Subject: Comments Anyone? Date: 14 Nov 85 21:08:34 GMT Can someone provide me with some quick insight to either: 1. The "Titan", "Wizard", "Whatever the third book is" trilogy by John Varley 2. "The Three Stigmatas of Palmer Eldridge" by P.K. Dick Thanks, Dave Juitt UUCP: ..linus!security!dnj ARPA: dnj@mitre-bedford ------------------------------ From: cybvax0!mrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Huybensz) Subject: Three disappointments from Vance, Heinlein, and Stasheff. Date: 20 Nov 85 14:49:03 GMT Even when I see a new book by an old favorite author, I'm patient enough to wait until it is out in paperback. Not patient enough to wait till I can buy it second hand for half price. I bought "Job" by Heinlein, "Rhialto the Magnificent" by Vance, and "The Warlock Enraged" by Stasheff, all at full price. I should have waited, because they weren't worth it. Only the last 150 pages of "Job" are worth anything. The rest is typical space-filling Heinlein blabber full of self-righteous straw-man shooting. The last part gives Christian belief a sound thumping, but didn't surprise me a bit. (On the other hand, I'm not average, even by the standards of SF readers.) This was the best of the three. Vance, despite his stilted prose, usually presents vivid images of bizarre distant future society. No different in "Rhialto", but the plotting, continuity, and rationales fall flat on their faces. This is another "dying earth" book. Not nearly as good as the recent "Cugel's Saga". "The Warlock Enraged" is another testament to how wonderful things can be if you raise your children correctly. We've seen a slew on this theme ranging from Heinlein to Anthony to Harrison: they all assume marvelously precocious and talented children who are really little grownups, rather than children. The plot seems secondary: probably because the problems posed are so blatantly telegraphed and so trivial. One final flame. The last two are prime examples of what I call disequilibrium science fiction. They postulate a society where a disequilibrium exists, and the heroes go exploit it. The disequilibrium isn't created by the heroes: it's been around for a long time. Why hasn't anyone else exploited it beforehand in all the obvious ways? This sort of cheap plotting device turns me off almost as badly as the "special power arrives in the nick of time" and "fantastic chain of coincidence" schools. You can all think of examples. I'd much rather see something other than wish-fulfillment. Brin's "Sundiver" and "Startide Rising" come to mind as recent paragons. Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh ------------------------------ Subject: Thieves' World Tie-Ins Date: 21 Nov 85 10:07:38 EST (Thu) From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU If anyone is interested, two of the more recent issues of F&SF have featured stories about Lythande. One is titled "Somebody Else's Magic" and the other was (I believe) "Sea Wrack" or something similar. Jen H. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 85 14:56:06 CST From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI Subject: The "Shaver Mysteries"? One of John W. Campbell's pet projects (along with dianetics and the Dean Drive) was, I believe, something called "The Shaver Mysteries". If I have that wrong, I'm sure someone will correct it! :-) In any case, though I know something about the other subjects, I don't know anything about these "Shaver Mysteries". I can't recall if the word "Shaver" is a person's name or a generic noun, like "Egyptian". Anybody have some concise explanations of what this was about, and if interest in it has persisted to the current day among certain circles? Regards, Will Martin ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 85 15:56:15 est From: Joe Turner Subject: RoboTech Super Dimension Century Orguss was done by both Tatsunoko Productions and Tokyo Movie Shinsa, the people who do the highly-popular LUPIN III character (ever see the video game ``Cliff Hanger''? That's recycled Lupin III material!). Problem was that TMS got the rights to Orguss when it went into syndie in Japan (it flopped on network tv), and it became immensely popular. TMS wants $500,000 for the rights alone --- no scripts, no tapes, just the rights! Carl Macek and Harmony Gold are waiting for the price to drop. Orguss has much more connection than you say, Ken; it's the sequel to Macross, fer cryin' out loud! Plot is basically: Earth has finally developed the technology to build a skyhook -- a mega-elevator that goes about a mile above ground level. Certain groups want control of it, and fighting ensues. The ammo that both sides are using come in four types: A-weapons - atomics; B-weapons - bio warfare; C-weapons - conventional warfare; and D-weapons, which are dimensional weapons. They distort the "space/time fabric" [cliche cliche] of a certain area. The main character, Kei Katsureiji, accidentally sets one off that propels him 20 or so years into the future, and puts up a barrier around the earth one mile off the surface. The show deals with his interaction with the two different alien races that have been brought onto earth by the detonation of the D-bomb, and his attempts to get back 20 years... not too heavy on the soap-opera, some nice characterisations. The ending is a socker. And we may never see it in english in the U.S.... PAPER: Joe Turner 329 Ward Street, Newton Centre MA 02159 SOUND WAVES: (617)/969-5993 ELECTRONS: rg.cutter%mit-oz@mit-mc.arpa turner%umass.bitnet@wiscvm.arpa cutter%mit-ccc@mit-mc.arpa cutter@UMASS-BOSTON.csnet ringwld!cutter@cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Immortality Date: 20 Nov 85 10:11:47 GMT Well, since we Elves are in this world the closest to immortal of all that I know, I thought I should settle this question. Now I personally am a very young Elf; this information is secondhand, yet it should be accurate enough. What, then, is life like after having lived more than a thousand years? Here is what Bregil (~1500) had to say: `I have noticed one thing in particular, and that is that I am more, well, thoughtful now; I am not as likely to rush into action as you are [meaning me, Lindor]. And of course I am wiser---or at least I hope I am wiser. But other than that I think I live life much as I did a thousand years ago.' Those who are even older seem to show this trend continuing: Some of the greybeards---oh yes, a few Elves do indeed grow beards, though I meant that as an expression---some seem to do nothing but advise others. But there again I have not been around that long; twenty-two years is as nothing to them. Of course, all our lives have been affected by the recent technological developments of Men. It has become quite hard to remain undetected; we have moved often in the recent past---though not in my short memory---and we are considering `going public', as it were. Indeed, my tales here are but one part of that very program. If all goes well, you may be hearing more from us. But we are uncertain: Your balance of actions both for and against us does not speak well. Not long ago, historically speaking, we spread many false rumours about ourselves, and went into hiding. Not all are happy about giving this up, and we move cautiously. For example, I am now supposed to insert something minor but self-contradictory so that we can cover our tracks later, but (impulsive as I am) I will not. I seem to have diverged from the topic, so I had best stop here. If you have specific questions for or about those who are much older than you and I, mail them to me and I will do my best to answer them, or to get answers for them. Lindor, alias Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 25 Nov 85 1015-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #446 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 25 Nov 85 1015-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #446 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 25 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 446 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Ballard & Brin & Chalker & DeCamp & Farmer & Varley (2 msgs) & Weddings in SF & Story Request Answered (3 msgs), Television - Amazing Stories & Star Trek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hammer!patcl@caip.rutgers.edu (Pat Clancy) Subject: Re: Robots and Empire Date: 20 Nov 85 01:04:09 GMT >No spoilers here. I believe it to be classic Asimov. It is the >pivotal novel in Asimov's quest to tie together the Empire novels >and the Robot novels. I started Robots and Empire, and am now stalled about halfway through, out of sheer boredom. It's been many years since reading previous books in the series, and they seem much better in retrospect. R&E suffers mainly from a lack of any interesting new ideas or plot development. Of course, it might heat up in the 2nd half; if so, I hope someone will let me know so I can finish it. There is an interminable amount of dialogue, which seems to take a very long time to get to the point (and when it does, it hardly seems worth the wait). The same basic sociological/psychological conflicts and themes that were the basis of the previous books are just rehashed here. A real disappointment. Pat Clancy ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!tim@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Name That Mega-Building Date: 21 Nov 85 21:49:00 GMT There's a J.G. Ballard short story about a big ( I mean BIG ) building. The building, in fact, seems to occupy the entire universe. I don't remember the name of the story, or the name of the collection it was in. Tim Smith ima!ism780!tim ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Yet another Note for Brin fans Date: 22 Nov 85 01:08:50 GMT jimb@ISM780B.UUCP writes: > I have just finished fondling my newly received trade (hardcopy) > edition of David Brin's STARTIDE RISING, published by Phantasia > Press. The cover is disappointing to me; it's well executed but > it looks like a battle scene from Star Trek VI -- The Nebula > Strikes Back. One other thing about the hardcover - David Brin states that it is revised - that he changed some of the "klunky language". Although we haven't been able to find the changes, we presume that he didn't lie... Anyway, this is a book you DESERVE to own in hardback! Mike Farren uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618 ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 1985 09:57:25-EST From: clapper@NADC Subject: Re: Well of Souls Saga Ken Raeburn writes: > Has anyone read the Well of Souls series by (Chalker, was it?)? > It's about a guy named Nathan Brazil, who, according to his own > accounts, has been around longer than the universe itself, and in > fact he has to take on the responsibility of destroying the > current one and starting a new one. The computer that runs the > universe simply will not let him die, as he is its maintainer. He > seemed to still have the ability to love after going through a lot > worse than he would even want to have anyone else live through. I first read the Well of Souls series (which WAS written by Jack Chalker) when I was in college. It was my introduction to Jack Chalker. I enjoyed it immensely; I thought the Well World (and all of its life-forms) were very well-conceived. Since then, I've read a LOT of Chalker's stuff. He seems to have a fixation with immortality and longevity. Many of his characters are either immortal (whether happy with the fact or not), or are striving to be immortal. Chalker attempts to describe the problems these characters have dealing with their long lives. Unfortunately, he's explored this theme in so many of his books that the trials and tribulations of his characters have become repetitious. He also loves to play with body-switching and/or shape-changing. It seems that in almost every novel he writes, a character falls asleep and either awakens in someone else's body or discovers that overnight he/she has become some bizarre, hitherto-unheard-of creature. (Examples can be found in _Web of the Chozen_, the _Well of Souls_ series, the _Soul Riders_ Trilogy, and the _Four Lords of the Diamond_ series, to name but a few...) Despite the pulpy feel of much of his writing (I wouldn't call Chalker a great literary artist), I enjoy most of his stuff. It's generally fun, escapist reading. One man's opinion... Brian M. Clapper ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 85 13:45:44 PST From: Linda Wald Subject: The Complete Enchanter In response to Larry Bruns: The Complete Enchanter (subtitled "The Magical Misadventures of Harold Shea" ) by L. Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt contains the following : The Roaring Trumpet ; which takes place in the world of Norse mythology The Mathematics of Magic ; which takes place in the world of Spenser's Faerie Queene The Castle of Iron ; which takes place in the world of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso, with a brief stop in Coleridge's Xanadu There is also a separate book called The Wall of Serpents, which takes place in the world of the Kalevala and in the world of Irish myth. They are all tongue-in-cheek fantasy, and much fun to read. Harold Shea moves to these worlds using symbolic logic ( a syllogismobile ! ), and bumbles around, having hilarious adventures. In the end, everything is set (reasonably) right. Linda Wald math.linda@ucla-locus.arpa ------------------------------ From: cvl!kayuucee@caip.rutgers.edu (Kenneth W. Crist Jr.) Subject: Farmer Date: 21 Nov 85 19:14:14 GMT There seems to be some confusion about some of P.J. Farmer's books. IMAGE OF THE BEAST contains two stories, IMAGE OF THE BEAST and BLOWN they are about a private eye and two of his adventures. Forrest Ackerman is an important character in the second story. A FEAST UNKNOWN is a story with the real-life counterparts of Doc Savage and Tarzan. This has violence and sex and violence and sex. It is definitely done tongue in cheek and one hell of a good read for pulp fans. This is followed by THE LORD OF THE TREES/THE MAD GOBLIN. The first story features Lord Grandrith (Tarzan) after his adventures in AFU and the second features Doc Caliban (Doc Savage). At the end of Doc's book the two are reunited. This is written more pulp-ish than camp-ish and to my opinion is not as good as the first. Farmer has also written two serious works about Tarzan and Doc Savage. Each is a biography of their lives. They are TARZAN LIVES (or TARZAN ALIVE, I can't remember at the momoent) and DOC SAVAGE: HIS APPOCALYPTIC LIFE. Both are very good. I read somewhere that Farmer is supposedly writing a biography of a certain crimefighter who worked in New York in the thirties and forties. I hope he finishes it soon. ------------------------------ From: inuxh!verner@caip.rutgers.edu (Matt Verner) Subject: Re: Comments Anyone? Date: 22 Nov 85 18:12:46 GMT > Can someone provide me with some quick insight to either: > 1. The "Titan", "Wizard", "Whatever the third book is" > trilogy by John Varley > Dave Juitt > UUCP: ..linus!security!dnj > ARPA: dnj@mitre-bedford The third book is "DEMON". All three books are very readable good science fiction. I enjoyed them all though "DEMON" was not as good as the other two. If you are put off by feminine protagonist literature you won't enjoy them (don't take this to mean NOW type feminism, just everyday people who happen to be female). Also don't be put off by the seemingly 'fantasy' titles - portions of these books are about as 'hard' as 'hard' science fiction gets! Matt UUCP: ...ihnp4!inuxc!verner AT&T: (317) 845-3631 ------------------------------ From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Comments Anyone? Date: 21 Nov 85 18:24:00 GMT John Varley is one of the better Sci fi writers for the '80s. Titan, Wizard, and the third I believe is Gaia, are very popular. I read Titan and it is a classic, for sure. I haven't read the sequels but have heard good things. I met Varley up in Eugene, Oregon 5 yea years ago when he wrote Titan and was promoting it in a bookstore I hung around in. He lives up there and the protaganists name is Eugene Springfield, the 2 sister cities. ------------------------------ From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Re: Query: Marriage and Weddings in SF Date: 21 Nov 85 19:09:50 GMT > From: > Here's a somewhat offbeat story/bibliography request for all > of you SF scholars! We are engaged to be married next spring, and > are looking for some unusual material to use in our ceremony. > Since SF is an important element in both of our personal > mythologies, we would really like to incorporate or adapt some > ideas from its culture. Can anyone recommend stories which > portray alien wedding customs and/or notable descriptions of "what > marriage means" to either a society or a couple? References from > either science fiction or fantasy are equally welcome. To > consider another avenue, does anyone know of actual wed- ding > ceremonies which have included such material, or ones which were > delib- erately crafted to celebrate speculation and the > imagination? > > Any help would be greatly appreciated! Please send replies > directly to SORCEROR at LL.ARPA, unless you feel that this query > might interest other Digest readers. Thanks profusely and thanks > in advance! > Karl Heinemann > and Beverly Slayton I tried to mail my response but the darn thing won't work! I think my fingers are at fault. Anyway, the book I thought of when I read your article was "Strangers" by LeGuin (I think?). It is about an earth man getting married to an alien woman. Neither of them has taken the time to know one another or the other's culture. I don't want to spoil it more then I already have, but I will say that the book has a sad endding. If this book is what you were looking for let me know (by the net or mail) and I can get the information to you--I think. I have the book at home. jody ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (KEITH VAGLIENTI) Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!! Date: 21 Nov 85 14:05:21 GMT > From: Mike James X27798 > I am trying to remember a book that I read one summer and can > think of the name or the author. It was about an invasion into > America by the Chinese/Japanese and a group of scientists in > America who used high technology to create their own new religion > and attempt an overthrow of the invaders. All I remember is that > the had found the connection between gravity, magnetism, and > electricity and used this as the basis for their "magic" and > weapons. Please Help! I believe the book you are thinking of is _Armageddon_2419_ by Philip Frances Nowlan. This is the original book upon which the Buck Roger's stories were based. It concerns the take over of the world by the Hans and the subsequent efforts by the Americans to end their domination. The Americans have indeed found a connection between gravity and electricity allowing them to manufacture what is called intertron, a material which falls up. This they use in their jumping belts and vehicles so that they can make them lighter. There are several books in this series and I'll try to list them all. _Armageddon_2419_ by Philip Frances Nowlan _Mordred_ by John Eric Holmes _Warriors_World_ by McEnroe (can't remember his first name) _Rogers'_Rangers_ by Silbersack (can't remember his first name either) Armageddon focuses on the American rebellion against the Han, Mordred has Roger's son by a Han princess trying to reestablish a world wide Han domination with Rogers fighting him, Warriors World is about the true nature of the Han, and Rangers is about the efforts to repel the second Han domination. The last three books are based on notes made by Nowlan when he wrote Armageddon. Armageddon and Mordred are fairly good and I recommend both but the last two aren't quite up to par so you might want to skip them if you're not a big Buck Rogers fan. Keith Conrad Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ From: alberta!gordon@caip.rutgers.edu (Gordon Atwood) Subject: Re: Re: Help! I need to know!! Date: 22 Nov 85 21:28:39 GMT I beg to disagree but if you carefully read the initial letter you will see it says the Americans set up their own religion. Armeggedon, by Nowlan does not feature that twist. The story in question is one written by R.Heinlein. I believe it was originally titled "The Sixth Column", or Fifth, or Fourth. It was retitled some years ago. It involves the U.S. suddenly being invaded by "oriental" types. It is sudden and almost total. A small research facility remains intact in the mountains. Said facility has just discovered a "new" physical law which links gravity, sub-atomic particles, and electricity-magnetism. They set up a new religion which allows them to move freely since the invaders want to keep the populace "happy" by giving them their religious beliefs to cling to. Any conversant Heinlein fan should be able to supply the correct title. G.H.A. ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish) Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!! Date: 21 Nov 85 17:16:11 GMT The book you are thinking of is "The Day After Tomorrow", but it was originally titled "the Sixth Column", and it is by Robert Heinlein. I don't know what happened to my copy, but it was a great book, (although it was really Rah Rah USA!!!) and it held my attention. Yes you are correct, in the book the scientists had discovered a unified field theory, as well as lots of other interesting things, in a secret military base that survived the attack. But most of the personnel of the base had been wiped out by one of the experiments that led to the discovery of the unified field. Darren Kadish [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who have posted similar information: Martin J. Moore (mooremj@eglin-vax) Hank Shiffman (Shiffman@GODZILLA.SCH.Symbolics.COM) Brent Chapman (c55-hc@ucbbuddy.BERKELEY.EDU) Chris Henrich (petsd!cjh@caip.rutgers.edu) Tim Smith (ISM780B!tim@caip.rutgers.edu) Andrew Kenah (kenah%hardy.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM) Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} (quint@RED.RUTGERS.EDU)] ------------------------------ From: mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Amazing Stories - The Mission - Alt Date: 18 Nov 85 21:36:00 GMT I thought he should have jumped, even though the parachute was ripped. People have been known to survive terminal velocity into hard ground (not very likely, but possible), and the chute would have slowed him down some. It would have given him a better chance then staying in the turret (at least it would have in the real world). Scott McEwan {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 85 11:35 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Paramount has release the third set of Star Trek episodes on videocassette. They are: 20 "The Alternative Factor" 23 "A Taste of Armageddon" 24 "Space Seed" 25 "This Side of Paradise" 26 "Devil in the Dark" 27 "Errand of Mercy" 28 "City on the Edge of Forever" 29 "Operation: Annihilate!" 33 "Who Mourns for Adonais?" 34 "Amok Time" My video store owner assures me that Paramount is planning to release all the episodes, so the ones missing (in sequence) will probably in the next set. No dates have been announced for the future sets, but Paramount aims to have the release of the last set coincide with the release of STIV. Lisa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Nov 85 0940-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #447 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 447 Today's Topics: Books - Duane & Hamilton & Harrison (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Panshin & Square Dance in SF & Thieve's World, Films - The Quiet Earth (2 msgs) Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Immortality & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cc-30@ucbcory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Diane Duane completist seeks complete list. Date: 24 Nov 85 06:28:51 GMT I'm a fan of Diane Duane's, and own the following list of her work. Have I missed anything? Door Into Fire Door Into Shadow "Parting Gifts" from Flashing Swords #5 "The Mdaha" from Fantasy Book #5 "Lior and the Sea" from Moonsinger's Friends Wounded Sky My Enemy, My Ally Star Trek #24, #25 (DC comics) "The Hand that Feeds You" from Wings of Omen "Down by the Riverside" from Dead of Winter (?) So You Want to be a Wizard? Deep Wizardry and (last but not least) the Arden map. Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 85 21:59 EST From: Mark Purtill Subject: Re: Time travel, take 2 Cc: tellab3!thoth@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Marcus Hall), Cc: jhunix!ins_ajsk@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan Simon Kay) >> What if time travel caused you to stay in the same place in 4D >> space? Travel through time would then cause one to leave our >> universe and presumably end up in some other universe!... >You are forgetting one thing: that normal time does not exist >outside spacetime, by definition. Therefore, I think that probably >for the time traveler, all times would have to exist. Think of it >not interms of a balloon but an infinite number of balloons one >inside the other infinitely close to each other. Each balloon then >represents the universe at a given moment. Thus a time traveler >would not be leaving space-time forever, but would merely be >traveling to another "balloon." This reminds my of one of the old "Captain Future" pulp novels Ed Hamilton wrote back in the 30s or 40s. (No, I'm not that old - I read the 60s reprints.) Anyway, in the one I'm thinking of, Captain Future travels thru four dimensional space to another dimension/universe/buzzword. There he impersonates an ancient hero to save everybody from the bad guys. When he gets back home it's revealed - that's right - that "since the fourth dimension is time" he actually travelled to the future and impersonated himself. What a shocker. Actually, the Captain Future novels are pretty good for pulp. They're well enough written that you don't notice that for instance Captain Future and/or his pals have to be captured and escape exactly three times. Mark Purtill at MIT-MULTICS.ARPA 2-229 MIT Cambrige MA 02139 ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT by Harry Harrison Date: 20 Nov 85 15:41:55 GMT The jacket reads: "The Stainless Steel Rat is back! "Slippery Jim" diGriz, the 30th century's most lovable, laughable, larcenous con man turned counterspy, returns for yet another high-tension mission. This time the Special Corps has given the Rat a daring assignment--liberate a backward tourist planet from the clutches of an aging dictator. With his lovely but lethal wife Angelina and his two stalwart sons James and Bolivar, diGriz pits ballots against bullets in the fight for freedom. He's vowed to restore truth, justice and democracy to the world of Paraiso-Aqui, if he has to lie, cheat and steal to do it!" If you've never read any of Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat books, you have a treat in store for you. The stories are always light, fast-paced, and tongue-in-cheek. Slippery Jim himself tells the stories, and there's always a very liberal sprinkling of high technology devices (Jim uses only the latest and best). Interestingly enough, Jim abhors violence and uses sleep gas as often as possible to disable his opponents. (He considers himself a crook, not a criminal.) The jacket is pretty accurate about the content of this book, though the Special Corps really doesn't have much to do with what the diGriz family undertakes on the planet. This is a nice change of pace from the "save the universe" stories one frequently encounters (Jim himself has saved the universe twice.) I've read a handful of Stainless Steel Rat books, and this one is the best thus far. I give it 3.0 stars (very good). Duane Morse ...!noao!{terak|mot}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: cheviot!ncx@caip.rutgers.edu (Lindsay F. Marshall) Subject: Re: THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT by Harry Harrison Date: 25 Nov 85 16:03:09 GMT I have to disagree (well I dont HAVE to, but....) with this review, but I thought that this book was way below the standard of the other SSR books. It just never got off the ground at all and gave the impression that Harrison was running out of ideas for this character. Lindsay F. Marshall, Computing Lab., U of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK ARPA : lindsay%cheviot.newcastle.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa JANET : lindsay@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot UUCP : !ukc!cheviot!lindsay ------------------------------ From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan) Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars) Date: 22 Nov 85 20:51:34 GMT What Heinlein wrote for teenaged females in 1962 was appropriate *for the time*. What it says is, "-Hey, the future isn't going to be all that different from the present; women will fill the same roles they always have, and (1962) males' assumptions of what those roles are will remain unchallenged-". Well, I say, hey, this is *1985*, (in case you hadn't noticed :-), and women's roles *have* changed, and are continuing to change. An uncritical reader (such as most junior high and high school students) will likely not question what Heinlein says about women's roles. This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing. I don't want to see reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, I mean men, too) have fought to eliminate for so long. I graduated from high school in 1976, and the school system then was still steering girls away from math. What does Podkayne say? "-It doesn't look good for a girl to know math, so even if you do know math, don't let anyone know about it. Men are such fragile creatures that they won't be able to handle it.-" This doesn't strike me as being very fair to women OR men! ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Anthony Villiers adventures Date: 23 Nov 85 03:59:52 GMT Does anyone know whether Alexei Panshin's fourth Anthony Villiers novel, _The_Universal_Pantograph_, was ever published? Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 85 23:10:55 PST From: gea%Romeo@CIT-Hamlet.ARPA Subject: Square Dancing and SF Someone asked about square dancing in SF (I can't find the original posting): There is a scene somewhere in Barbara Hambly's trilogy (one of the books is _The Time of the Dark_) involving a dance that struck me as being square dancing, even though it was never identified as such. Sorry I can't be more specific, but my books are in No-Cal and I'm in Lo-Cal. Gary Ansok ------------------------------ From: cc-30@ucbcory.BERKELEY.EDU (Sean "Yoda" Rouse) Subject: Re: Thieves' World Tie-Ins Date: 24 Nov 85 06:13:01 GMT >From: jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU > If anyone is interested, two of the more recent issues of >F&SF have featured stories about Lythande. One is titled "Somebody >Else's Magic" and the other was (I believe) "Sea Wrack" or >something similar. You can also find "Sea Wrack" in the Bluejay anthology "Moonsinger's Friends." Kathy Li ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 85 23:37:09 pst From: stever@cit-vax.ARPA (Steve Rabin ) Subject: The Quiet Earth Cc: brian@cit-vax.ARPA This is a really excellent movie. Go see it. Knowing the plot sort of ruins some of the movie, so try to avoid reading reviews which give the plot away. (this one won't). One warning - if you demand 100% correct science in sf films, this movie won't, so stay home. The effects were fantastic! There is a great credits scene with the rings of Saturn, perhaps viewed from one of it's moons. (This still scene has no relation whatsoever to the rest of the movie, which also has neat graphics which I won't describe). I left the theater feeling somewhat shook up. I won't say any more. Regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 85 11:56:07 pst From: brian@cit-vax.ARPA (Brian Von Herzen) Subject: The Quiet Earth Cc: stever@cit-vax.ARPA The Quiet Earth is a horrible film. Scientifically implausible, sexist, and having a discontinuous plot, The Quiet Earth attempts to serve up leftovers from Sartre's "No Exit" with no success. This is definitely a movie not worth spending your money on. ------------------------------ From: spock!ckuppe@caip.rutgers.edu (Charles A. Kupperman '87 ) Subject: Season Review: Season 22. Date: 23 Nov 85 22:26:20 GMT Season Review: Season 22 (1985) This season suffered most of all from the 45 minute format that it adopted. The approach to writing a 45 minute episode was suspiciously similar to that of a 25-minute episode. In short: Nothing happens in episode 1 of interest to the plot. And in episode 4, the story gets hastily wrapped up in the last five minutes. The only problem is that this approach does not work as well when applied to the longer format. What the writers ended up with was a very long, drawn-out episode 1, then a very fast, rushed episode 2. In most of these adventures, it takes the Doctor a good 45 minutes to even run into anything resembling a plot. Added to this, the Doctor spends the first twenty or so minutes of each adventure in the Tardis arguing with Peri. This blatant padding is so poorly done that it destroys the whole story. When Peri and the Doctor finally get out of the Tardis, the plot has advanced well beyond the Doctor's ability to get involved. In other words: The script writers keep the Doctor out of the way under the pretext of "developing the plot", but then the plot usually happens quite well without the Doctor, and he never really breaks into it. One fan was watching Revelation of the Daleks, when all of a sudden this strange extra with curly hair came down a corridor. For a few moments, this fan couldn't even remember who the strange extra was. Attack of the Cybermen (2) by Paula Moore (Eric Saward and Matthew Robinson) This rather confused epic was ORIGINALLY written by a Paula Moore, who spent SUCH a long time researching the Cybermen and working the ideas out, then ran out of ideas somewhere in Episode 2. According to Matthew Robinson, the story was then handed over to him and Eric. After a while of brainstorming, the two of them came up with most of the plot. They then sat down and rewrote the whole thing, Saward adding some typical Saward characters, Bates and Stratton, and Robinson contributing some interesting plot ideas. The end result, however, is confused and silly. Lytton is not given much justice as a "villain", and the Doctor looks very silly indeed. To be continued... (Unless anybody objects) ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: Immortality Date: 22 Nov 85 12:25:02 GMT >> I eventually came to (among other things) the conclusion that you >>had to be some kind of psychopath to survive an immortal lifetime, >>and thus the sort of person that *has* to dominate. > I don't see why living thousands of years would drive anyone > crazy, or why anyone would have to be crazy to want to live > thousands of years (I'm not sure which you meant). > I've always thought it would be a neat practical joke, once we > all have immortality, to send someone back to the precambrian in a > time machine and strand him there, make him 'walk' back. Has > anyone written anything like this? What I meant was that you had to be psychopathic to *be able* to live thousands,nay millions of years without the boredom eventually driving you into a worse kind of insane. It is true, though, that immortality would probably end up driving you into a psychopathic state anyway ("There's nothing wrong with *me*!") Fredrick Pohl, in Drunkard's Walk, hypothesised that immortals would become frightened that they might be killed, deathly afraid of losing eternal life, paranoid, and end up trying to rule the world anyway. You pays your money..:-) In regard to your last point, it seems to me that this is one of the worst kind of paradoxes. If the guy survived from the pre-Cambrian, he'd *definitely* want to stop you doing it. So if no-one stops you doing it, it's obvious that the guy died somewhere along the way, and your joke goes a little sour. Unless of course he knew that he'd violate quite a few laws of time if he stopped you, so never made the effort and merely tried to get even. This in turn creates opportunities for paradox etc. I may write this up myself, in which case you will be credited - so send your name in full. Be seeing you... Robert Ramsay ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Space Is Clean Date: 22 Nov 85 21:41:20 GMT hoey@nrl-aic writes: > True, giant insects, organic slimes, or humanoids with tentacles >might incite disgust (remember the diplomat in Heinlein's *Star >Beast*). But why do we expect aliens to look like something we >avoid on Earth? Real aliens should be so different from anything >we would recognize as organic that aversion wouldn't be aroused. >Could a monolith, a hurkle, a berserker, or a beach ball make you >queasy? There is a fallacy here, the assumption that the set of possible forms taken by living things is unrestricted. In fact the structure of living things is controlled by "natural laws" in about the same way as the interactions of subatomic particles are. Basically you are *both* wrong. Living things from other planets would match neither of your ideas. Giant insects are highly unlikely for mechanical and physiological reasons, as are large, intelligent slimes. Tentacles *might* develop on "humanoids", but they would end up looking rather like monkeys' tails. A monolith or a beach ball would be a lousy form for anything except perhaps some sort of plant, and would be unlikely to be either mobile or intelligent. Berserkers are *artificial*. What would life from another planet look like? That's easy, just look at Earth 120 million years ago, it was a different planet then, and the dominant life forms were only *distantly* related to modern forms. The ways in which the life forms then solved their problems was achieved independently of the way modern mammals have solved the same problems. Or you could look at Australia, for all practical purposes it has been a separate system for the last several million years, at least until very recently. > And if aliens have anywhere near as stringent environmental >requirements as humans do, our environments will probably be >disjoint, so we won't see, smell, or touch anything but the inside >of our life support system. Maybe, but actually our environmental requirements are among the *least* restrictive of any organism on this planet. If the aliens were similarly among the most general organisms on *their* planet, there should be at least some small range of overlap. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 27 Nov 85 1016-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #448 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 27 Nov 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 448 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asimov (2 msgs) & Ellison & Heinlein (6 msgs) & Kurtz & McCaffrey & Panshin & Varley & Mono Sex Societies (2 msgs) & Shaver Mysteries & Story Request Answered ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Obscure books Date: 25 Nov 85 16:25:00 GMT I am looking for a novel written by Piers Anthony in the Sixties about a dentist that gets kidnapped from Earth! I only saw one copy of the book in Oregon and for the Life of me can't remember the title! Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have yet to see. Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA please respond. Also I haven't been able to find Somtow Sutcharitkuls book Aquiliad. Any one heard of it or read it? ------------------------------ Date: 26 Nov 1985 14:11:45-EST From: clapper@NADC Subject: Re: Robots and Empire hammer!patcl@caip.rutgers.edu (Pat Clancy) writes: > I started Robots and Empire, and am now stalled about halfway > through, out of sheer boredom. It's been many years since reading > previous books in the series, and they seem much better in > retrospect. R&E suffers mainly from a lack of any interesting new > ideas or plot development. Of course, it might heat up in the 2nd > half; if so, I hope someone will let me know so I can finish it. > There is an interminable amount of dialogue, which seems to take a > very long time to get to the point (and when it does, it hardly > seems worth the wait). The same basic sociological/psychological > conflicts and themes that were the basis of the previous books are > just rehashed here. A real disappointment. I had similar feelings toward the novel. It seemed to take forever to finish. I usually do some reading just before I go to bed at night; three nights straight, conversations between Daneel and Giskard put me to sleep. Nonetheless, _Robots and Empire_ DOES get better in the second half, although it never comes close to _The Naked Sun_ or _Caves of Steel_. (I couldn't put either of those novels down when I read them.) It's worth finishing, if only to see how Asimov augments his Three Laws of Robotics. Brian M. Clapper clapper@nadc (ARPA) ------------------------------ From: wucec2!rhw9906@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Hill Wyatt Jr) Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!! Date: 25 Nov 85 21:17:45 GMT I can't say I agree with the criticism of "Robots and Empire". I just finished reading it last night, and I was very impressed by the way Asimov handles the robots Daneel and Giskard and their struggle against their own logic. This is the crux of the book, and is hard to appreciate if you are not thouroughly familiar with Asimov's Robots series. As one who has read all of his Robot stories and novels, I consider R&E to be his masterwork, his final say on robots and their laws. To say more would be to ruin the book for quite a few people. Literally Yours, Rick Wyatt ------------------------------ From: lee@doc Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 22 Nov 85 04:04:00 GMT Ellison said in a Starlog interview that "Paladin" was an original story written by him for "Twilight Zone" but that he was adapting the screenplay into a short story. People who have read the story evidently think that the story is Hugo material. Lee Cochenour allegra!convex!ctvax!trsvax!doc!lee ------------------------------ Date: 26 NOV 85 09:05-EST From: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA Subject: re: Help! I need to know!! Mike, The story you are looking for is _Sixth_Column_, by Anson MacDonald (a pseudonym of R.A.Heinlein) pub. as a 3 part serial in _Astounding_SF_ starting in January, 1941. Hardback: Gnome, 1946 Paperback: Signet, as _The_Day_After_Tomorrow_, 1951 Source: Tuck: _Encyclopedia_of_SF_and_F_, vol 1, pg 216. I distinctly remember reading an article saying that this was based on a short novel by John Campbell. I could swear that Campbell's story was recently (within the past 5 years) printed in a collection of his unpublished works, but I couldn't find it when I went looking for it last night. jayembee? Selden Ball ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 85 14:14:13 PST From: raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Story request answer The book is "The Day After Tomorrow" by Robert A. Heinlein. Evidently this book was RAH's way to help SYSGEN the American People into "World War II mode" as the copyright date on my book is 1941. The invaders in the book are thinly veiled Japanese although the book denies that the Asian invaders are of any present race. They are portrayed just short of eating babies alive. RAH has written better. Al Wong Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, California ------------------------------ From: wucec2!ph@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul Hahn) Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!! Date: 26 Nov 85 01:21:30 GMT Excuse me--that's SIXTH COLUMN, which title is a reference to FIFTH COLUMN, which is by Hemingway, not Heinlein. (Amusingly, because of the alphabetic nearness of the authors' names, it is possible these two to be next to each other on a library shelf, but in reverse order.) As for the racism, well, Heinlein is not usually particularly racist. I know that he wrote this novel at a suggestion from John W. Campbell, Jr., whose idea it was for the magnetogravitic, electrogravitic, and electromagnetogravitic spectra. Possibly some other of Campbell's attitudes got in there as well. pH ------------------------------ From: drutx!slb@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Brezden) Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars) Date: 25 Nov 85 18:15:41 GMT >An uncritical reader (such as most junior high and high school >students) will likely not question what Heinlein says about women's >roles. This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing. I don't want to see >reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, I mean men, >too) have fought to eliminate for so long. I graduated from high >school in 1976, and the school system then was still steering girls >away from math. What does Podkayne say? "-It doesn't look good >for a girl to know math, so even if you do know math, don't let >anyone know about it. Men are such fragile creatures that they >won't be able to handle it.-" What are you going to do? Remove the book from the shelves? Ovner my dead body! I graduated from high school in 1965. I remember what it was like. And what it was like is exactly the quote you include in your posting. That's a pretty accurate statement of what I was told to be like. Well, I rejected it. I remember being thought odd because I did not hide my brains, didn't love clothes and makeup, (gasp!) took math courses, and READ SF (including lots of Heinlein). I went back to my high school reunion this last year. Out of 13 women only two of us have careers! But personally, I WANT my children to read things like this. I do not want my girls to forget, ever, that we have come so far. I want my girls to know that things change. I want my girls to know that it was not always like 1985, and that things can be like 1965 again unless we make an effort to hold on to what we have. And I want them to know what I had to fight to be what I am today. And I remember that reading Heinlein helped make me the way I am. (Not politically, certainly...) How, I am not sure, but SF encouraged me in my odd ways. I assume it would do the same for my children. (Who, unfortunately, show no interest in SF. Sigh. But if they ever do, I want it to be there for them.) I think you greatly underestimate junior high and high school students. They are perfectly capable of critical reading. Anyone who isn't is reading romances--not SF. Besides, vintage Heinlein is good fun. Sue Brezden ihnp4!drutx!slb ------------------------------ From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Po Date: 25 Nov 85 16:18:00 GMT You have to Heinlein credit for trying to write sf with a feminine protaganist. He was one of the few to do so, not just Podkyne, but others like Holly in The Menace from Earth, and Friday, and The Number of the Beast. I like his female characters for they are not stereotypical but instead for the most part uniquely strong-willed. But I also like Anne McCafferys characters because they are unique and somehow a unique character if vital to a good novel or story. ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars) Date: 25 Nov 85 21:33:44 GMT I (even when I was in that "uncritical" age group) read that particular section as meaning "Don't let anyone know you know math because men are such schmucks they can't take it." I didn't read it as meaning that women shouldn't learn math, and suspect a little projection in anyone who does. I agree that it doesn't seem very fair, but it is a valid observation? My wife has a math degree, and she has commented on just this sort of thing -- that she had to learn to play dumb about some math things to fit in. Similarly, I tend not to mention the fact that I like to cook and do most of the cooking unless I am sure that the people I'm speaking with can deal with it (a lot of people can't in North Carolina. They're often the people who tell my wife about how soon I'll have my degree so she can come home and be a housewife.) But go read Heinlein's expanded Worlds collection (I can get you ISBN etc if you like, but it's not right at hand). In it he talks at some length about his wife who is a better mathematician than he is. He also has at least one of the stories he wrote for a girl's magazine. He also has a short but reasoned argument that women should be the *only* people allowed to vote. Doesn't sound very non-feminist to me. But I stll persist in the idea that Podkayne should be taken in context with its time. Otherwise, we get into a once a generation bookburining in which everything that doesn't agree with our "modern sensibilites" goes. But if we do that, there are a number of female feminists that are going to have books go to the torch as well: Mary W. Shelly Cora Bloom (? The woman who invented bloomers. She was *quite* radical for her time -- but she had the same sort of idea about math.) Betty Friedan. And we'd better forget Abraham Lincoln as an abolitionist, too. Check what *he* had to say about blacks after slavery. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ Date: Tue 26 Nov 85 13:49:13-PST From: Randall B. Neff Subject: Katherine Kurtz I spoke with Katherine Kurtz at an autograph party in San Jose last Sunday; here is what is coming: The third book in the current trilogy is finished and turned in to del Rey, it is undergoing final polish. It will be a Fall 86 hardcover. There will be a hardcover collection of Deryni short stories in Spring 86. The next books planned will be trilogy to follow the Camber trilogy. The first book WILL NOT be called Camber, the Zombie. She refused to say if Camber is dead or alive (in the next trilogy). She, her husband, and step-son are moving to a castle in Ireland in January. Randy. NEFF@SU-SIERRA ------------------------------ From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut) Subject: "Killashandra" by Anne McCaffrey Date: 25 Nov 85 05:25:15 GMT I've just finished Killashandra, Anne McCaffrey's new book. Consider this a mini-review. The book is another story from the life of the title character, originally from Crystal Singer. The story is about a trip she takes to install new crystal on a multi-sensory organ on a distant planet. Almost none of it is based on Ballybran, which is a crime since that's what made Crystal Singer so magical. I won't get into more plot details. The characters are as flawed as ever, much worse than anything McCaffrey has ever done. The book has very little to offer outside of one vaguely interesting culture that is incredibly derivative of an earthside stereotype of a culture. On a scale of -4 to +4, I'd give the book +1. Mainly because I like Killashandra from before and I have fond memories of Crystal Singer. Hardcover, borrow it, get it for Xmas, or wait for the paperback. P.S. I recently read Footfall if anyone wants to hear about that. Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Anthony Villiers adventures Date: 25 Nov 85 02:34:00 GMT No, it wasn't. Ace (the publisher of the first 3 books) sold itself to Grosset & Dunlap, who dumped the Panshin books. ------------------------------ From: enea!peno@caip.rutgers.edu (Pekka Nousiainen) Subject: Re: Comments Anyone? Date: 26 Nov 85 01:36:37 GMT >John Varley is one of the better Sci fi writers for the '80s. >Titan, Wizard, and the third I beleive is Gaia, are very popular. >I read Titan and it is a classic, for sure. I haven't read the >sequels The Gaean trilogy is good indeed but it's nothing compared to what he used to do (Ophiuchi Hotline for example). I'm a bit disappointed that my favorite authors, Varley and Silverberg, have started writing this "heroic" stuff. The best part about Gaea is the scenery, like the opening pages of the third book (Demon). The climax of the story I forgot as soon as I read it. Net address: ...mcvax!enea!peno ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!wombat@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 30 Nov 85 05:13:00 GMT In the U.S, Wyndham's "Consider Her Ways" was published along with Peake's "Boy in Darkness" and Golding's "Envoy Extraordinary" in a book title *Sometime Never*, sometimes seen in used paperback stores. ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 25 Nov 85 01:47:00 GMT Poul Anderson wrote 'After Doomsday' in 1961. all the women wiped out while the men were off trading and drinking by some aliens they thought were friendly. Bertram Chandler wrote 'Spartan Planet' (n.d. known). Avram Davidson wrote 'Mutiny in Space' in 1964. 'Castaways of the universe marooned on a lost planet of war-crazed females!' there are bunches more. ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: The "Shaver Mysteries"? Date: 25 Nov 85 02:25:00 GMT Not Campbell--Ray Palmer, during his tenure at amazing. Some yo-yo named Shaved talked Palmer into publishing this drivel; since Palmer was concerned only with money, and since Palmer had nothing but contempt for science fiction anyway, he went ahead and published it--with predictable results: it drove away most of the regular readers. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 85 12:12:59 EST From: Melinda Berkman Subject: story request answered A request was made recently for identification of a story that involved a society of descendants of stranded space travelers which used cloning machinery intended for farm animals to perpetuate the human race in the absence of females. This time I waited to look it up since I was so far off the last time I tried to identify a story. Although there are probably several pieces of fiction that fit this description, I think the short story Friedman had in mind was "Full Fathom Five My Father Lies", by Rand B. Lee. It appeared in the February 16, 1981 issue of Asimov's. It must have been good for me to remember the title almost five years later without having reread it since. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Dec 85 0959-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #449 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 449 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker & Heinlein & Panshin & Thieve's World & Shaver Mysteries & Story Request Answered (4 msgs), Miscellaneous - Star Trek Welcommittee & Immortality & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jhunix!ins_atrh@caip.rutgers.edu (Thomas Richard Holtz) Subject: Re: Re: Immortality vs Love Date: 27 Nov 85 17:18:42 GMT brianu@ada-uts.UUCP writes: > {Concerning the Well World Series} > One of my favorite series. I believe there are five books in this > series. For ten points, which character appears in all five? (and > the answer is not Nathan Brazil). Okay, for ten points, the answer is: SERGE "I lied" ORTEGA, one of my favorite characters in one of my favorite series. I highly recommend this series for anyone who likes lots and lots of aliens, adventure, and fun. It gives one of the best hard-core SF explanations of magic I've ever encountered (just how "natural" are the natural laws...), and many interesting characters. As for immortality, there are many characters that come close, and two who achieve it. If, however, you are a fundamentalist concerning religion, please stay away from the series. Chalker's version of God (well, maybe he's god...) doesn't exactly coincide with any of the standard Judeo-Christian views, as Serge Ortega points out. Dragonlord P.S. Can anyone out there name, for twenty points, the ten longest lived characters in the Well World Universe? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 85 21:07:28 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars) To: calmasd!gail@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU >From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan) > What does Podkayne say? "-It doesn't look good for a girl to know >math, so even if you do know math, don't let anyone know about it. >Men are such fragile creatures that they won't be able to handle >it.-" This doesn't strike me as being very fair to women OR men! Heinlein is an author, not a politician. Anyway, the opinions of his characters are not necessarily his opinions. If you had read much Heinlein you would know he is 100% for equal rights. Besides, Podkayne is obviously poking fun at male chauvinists in the passage you quoted, not agreeing with them. ...Keith ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: Anthony Villiers adventures Date: 27 Nov 85 22:20:12 GMT I am told by someone who had the chance to look at the manuscript that The Universal Pantograph was, simply, DREADFUL. My own theory is that married life may have agreed with Panshin, but caused his writing to go downhill, FAST! Certainly he was, before he married Cory, one of my favorite writers; now he's not even on my "will read" list. Mike Farren uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618 ------------------------------ From: chabot@miles.DEC Subject: Thieves' World: bah! Date: 26 Nov 85 16:47:55 GMT By the title I chose, I hope everyone is prepared to deal with the fact that I'm going to say something...uncomplimentary. Here goes: YUCK. I've bought every one so far, and this is absolutely the last. From now on, if any more come out, I'll have this blind spot. I'm sure that some will call me "Fool!", because they don't read this kind of stuff anyway; and I'm sure that there are still the Faithful. If there are still Faithful reading my posting who haven't bought it yet, I say, "Be warned!" Now, you can't say I haven't got patience, because I just got through reading some Trollope without becoming Rip van Winkle. [You want lack of action and a bizarre, incomprehensible mileu, you don't have to go to Thieves' World LXXXV.] Anyway, every story but Offut's put me to sleep in the first two pages, if not before, and Offut's was dull (although not nearly as dull as the end-piece dealing with the anecdotes of writing for Thieves' World --I say, "Who cares!", but then maybe this is of more interest to those who edit...okay, maybe it's for them). I've had trouble in the past with, oh, say, sustaining interest in #2, or with an occasional story in a volume (hey, I never expected perfection), but never have I before experienced such boredom with a whole volume. Well, the cover has lots of pretty colors, and metallic lettering. Practically no eyes at all, though, let alone people without eyelids (it's just not the same without those folks without eyelids :-) ). It's snowing here, and this ought to make pretty flames. On the other hand, I'm still lusting in my heart after the next Liavek... L S Chabot ------------------------------ From: hyper!dean@caip.rutgers.edu (Dean Gahlon) Subject: Re: The "Shaver Mysteries"? Date: 26 Nov 85 23:59:02 GMT > From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI > One of John W. Campbell's pet projects (along with dianetics and > the Dean Drive) was, I believe, something called "The Shaver > Mysteries". If I have that wrong, I'm sure someone will correct > it! :-) Sure enough, I'm someone. It wasn't Campbell, it was Ray Palmer. > In any case, though I know something about the other subjects, I > don't know anything about these "Shaver Mysteries". I can't > recall if the word "Shaver" is a person's name or a generic noun, > like "Egyptian". Anybody have some concise explanations of what > this was about, and if interest in it has persisted to the current > day among certain circles? > Regards, Will Martin The Shaver Mysteries were started when an author named Richard S. Shaver published some stories in _Amazing_ referring to various elder races (the "Dero" [the bad guys; it stands for "DEvolved RObots" or some such] and the "Tero" [the good guys; it stands for "inTEgrant RObots" or some such]) and their activities as they affect/affected humanity. Most of the furor about them arose when Ray Palmer, the editor of _Amazing_, took wholeheartedly to them and began claiming that they were nonfiction. (Claiming he had felt the Deros' evil rays, etc., etc.) So far as I know, nobody is interested in the Shaver mysteries anymore nowadays. ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adlk@caip.rutgers.edu (Darren Lee Kadish) Subject: Re: Obscure books Date: 27 Nov 85 16:24:38 GMT > I am looking for a novel written by Piers Anthony in the Sixties >about a dentist that gets kidnapped from Earth! I only saw one >copy of the book in Oregon and for the Life of me can't remember >the title! Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have >yet to see. Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA >please respond. The book you are looking for is not by Piers Anthony. It was by Kurt Vonnegut and the title was "Slaughterhouse Five", and it was about a dentist who gets abducted by aliens and put in a zoo, and made to perform sex acts with a kidnapped movie star (female). Darren Kadish ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!israel@caip.rutgers.edu (Bruce Israel) Subject: Re: Obscure books Date: 27 Nov 85 19:55:03 GMT ins_adlk@jhunix.UUCP (Darren Lee Kadish) writes: >> I am looking for a novel written by Piers Anthony in the Sixties >>about a dentist that gets kidnapped from Earth! I only saw one >>copy of the book in Oregon and for the Life of me can't remember >>the title! Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have >>yet to see. Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA >>please respond. > >The book you are looking for is not by Piers Anthony. It was by >Kurt Vonnegut and the title was "Slaughterhouse Five", and it was >about a dentist who gets abducted by aliens and put in a zoo, and >made to perform sex acts with a kidnapped movie star (female). No, Piers Anthony has done some stuff on this topic also. In the Asimov et. al. collection The_Science_Fictional_Olympics and also in the Piers Anthony collection Anthonology, there is a Piers Anthony story called "Getting into University". It's about a dentist from Earth applying to a Galactic Dental School. According to some things I've read, Anthony has written other stuff on this dentist detailing how he got into interstellar society (Earth doesn't know about extra-terrestrial life or interstellar society). Excellent story, and I'd love to read other stories about Dillingham (the dentist), or the novel which I hadn't heard about. Triple Detente is also excellent. A friend turned me on to Anthony by lending me it, but I haven't seen any copies of it in years. Bruce Israel University of Maryland, Computer Science Dept. {rlgvax,seismo}!umcp-cs!israel (Usenet) israel@Maryland (Arpanet) ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Obscure books Date: 2 Dec 85 13:33:00 GMT anthony's first or second novel was called 'chthon.' it was about *someone* kidnapped from earth.... ------------------------------ From: hammer!hutch@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Hutchison) Subject: Re: Obscure books Date: 30 Nov 85 08:09:41 GMT josh@ism70.UUCP writes: > I am looking for a novel written by Piers Anthony in the Sixties >about a dentist that gets kidnapped from Earth! I only saw one >copy of the book in Oregon and for the Life of me can't remember >the title! Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have >yet to see. Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA >please respond. Try "Change of Hobbit" books. They can find *anything*. The dentist story is "Prostho Plus" and the copy I have was stolen from Josh Gordon, who bought it in Eugene. I also have his copy of "Hasan" which is a fairly horrid Anthony book about the Arabian Nights. It's amazing how BAD "Prostho Plus" really is, although it DOES show some primal trends in the Anthony style of writing... The hero is competent but has to prove himself through ingenuity, and is in the end rewarded for his integrity. The famous Anthony treatment of women is beautifully expressed in Prostho Plus. The ONLY female character is the dental hygenist who is kidnapped when the dentist hero cannot operate competently without her, and she falls mindlessly in love with him for his selfless and heroic dedication to the Healing Art of the Dentist. Hutch [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who submitted similar information: Ian Moor (icdoc!iwm@caip.rutgers.edu) Lars Andersson (lars@cartan.BERKELEY.EDU) Lyle McElhaney (cisden!lmc@caip.rutgers.edu)] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 85 15:55 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA A number of people, on reading my postings signed "Star Trek Welcommittee" have written to me asking "What is the Star Trek Welcommittee?" Well, I'd like to post an exerpt from our flyer: The Star Trek Welcommittee (STW) is a non-profit service organization/central information center (NOT a club to join) with about 50 volunteer workers in 35 states & foreign countries. These volunteer workers devote their time and efforts to answering fans' questions about Star Trek and provide new fans with complete infomation about Star Trek and Star Trek fandom. All we ask is a Self-Addressed, Stamped Envelope (SASE) for a reply. Few fans realize all that is really available in the world of Star Trek: 300 clubs, 400 fanzines, over 75 books, conventions, and sales items. That's where the Star Trek Welcommittee comes in - we can give you information on all this plus more: ST technology, ST actors, details of the making of ST (live-action, animated, and the movies), trivia, pen pals, other fans in your area, aid in forming clubs, publishing fanzines, obtaining local publicity for your Star Trek organization - whatever your question on Star Trek or Star Trek fandom is, chances are that we've got the answer - or can get it for you. Write us! STAR TREK WELCOMMITTEE Box 12 Saranac, MI 48881 Also, you can message me on the net with any questions, and I'll try to answer them, or refer you to someone else who can. Lisa Wahl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 85 21:25:40 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Re: Immortality To: kcl-cs!ramsay@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU >From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) >In regard to your last point, it seems to me that this is one of >the worst kind of paradoxes. If the guy survived from the >pre-Cambrian, he'd *definitely* want to stop you doing it. Not necessarily. He might decide he enjoyed it. Anyway, what point would there be in stopping you from doing it once it is over and done with? Or you can adopt the parallel time-tracks or meta-time models, in which you alternately succeed and fail at this prank. Or maybe he is simply unsuccessful at stopping you. >So if no-one stops you doing it, it's obvious that the guy died >somewhere along the way, and your joke goes a little sour. He can't die. He's immortal. Of course worse things could happen. For instance he might get caught in a volcanic eruption and end up firmly embedded in solid rock. Unless he has the patience of a Pak Protector, this could get boring waiting millions of years for the rock to erode away and free him. Billions of years if it gets subducted into the Earth's mantle. Perhaps that is why he doesn't stop you. ...Keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Nov 85 21:50:17 EST From: "Keith F. Lynch" Subject: Aliens To: psivax!friesen@CAIP.RUTGERS.EDU >From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) >There is a fallacy here, the assumption that the set of possible >forms taken by living things is unrestricted. In fact the structure >of living things is controlled by "natural laws" in about the same >way as the interactions of subatomic particles are. Right. The modern shark and dolphin, and the ancient icthysaur, are all about the same size and shape. This is for purely functional reasons, NOT because of common ancestry. They all did have common ancestors, but the ancestors were a very long ago and were nothing like any of them. A clear case of parallel evolution. Other example are the eye of the octopus and the mammalian eye. The modern nautilus and the ancient ammonoids. The placental versus the marsupial mouse, rat, tiger, wolf, and bear. These are all examples of independant evolution. As such, I predict that on any remotely earthlike world, creatures and plants would resemble those on earth, even if their internal chemistry was completely different. And I think it is unlikely to be very different. At one time it was believed that amino acids and RNA bases were very complicated and rare chemicals, but it has since been found that amino acids and RNA and DNA fragments can be produced by exposing almost any mixture of simple carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and oxygen containing compounds to almost any form of concentrated energy. And amino acids have been found in meteorites, comets, and even in gas clouds in interstellar space! The chemicals of which life are made are the most common elements in the universe combined in the most natural nontrivial ways. And, as scientists learn more about planetary formation, atmospheres of chlorine or oceans of ammonia seem less likely. It now seems that alien inhabited worlds will be very much like Earth. ...Keith ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Dec 85 1020-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #450 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 450 Today's Topics: Books - Stewart & Footfall & Star Trek Books & Some Reviews & Shaver Stories & Two More Requests & Request Answered ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Earth Abides Question Date: 27 Nov 85 06:33:17 GMT I am currently reading "Earth Abides" by G. R. Stewart from which this quote: `I lied. Not what I said, what I didn't say. But it's all the same. You're just a nice boy. You looked at my my hands, and said they were nice. You never even noticed the blue in the half-moons.' In the context in which it is written, this seems to have a racial connotation that I'm unfamiliar with. Would someone enlighten me? Hank Buurman Tektronix Inc. ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb ------------------------------ From: utai!perelgut@caip.rutgers.edu (Stephen Perelgut) Subject: "Footfall" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle Date: 27 Nov 85 16:37:41 GMT Footfall Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle a Del Rey book, 1985 (hardcover) Footfall is the latest collaboration between Niven and Pournelle. This is a BIG book (500 pages). It has to be. It has a BIG cast. The basis of the story is that aliens have come to take over the earth. In fact, they want to incorporate humans into their herd-like culture. The aliens look a lot like Dumbo-the-elephant. Their manipulative members are trunks that split, split, and split again (eight digits.) The aliens are well thought out and their culture (what little of it appears within the story) makes a kind of sense. I don't quite believe it, but... The story itself is nothing to write home about. There is a cast of thousands all of whom turn out to know each other (quite frequently in the biblical sense of the word "know"). God only knows why, but otherwise moral characters will screw like rabbits at the drop of a suggestion. Coincidence and super technology abounds in places where it shouldn't be necessary. Luckily, the U.S. is saved by the advanced thinking capabilities of science fiction authors, led by the legendary writer, Anson. Cute name. He even acts like RAH is said to behave. Hmmmmm. Remove the gratuitous sex, stupid coincidences, extra characters that don't add much to the plot (an entire survivalist group that exists in the book for one purpose [last 100 pages], which purpose is only there to move one character to the right place at the right time, who is only there to ...) and you have a 125-150 page book without a lot to recommend it. On a scale of -4 to +4 this one rates -1. Niven and Pournelle write well together, and the imagery is all there. But what a waste. Read this one if someone lends it to you and you have a lot of time on your hands. Or if you have a thing for Niven/Pournelle. I rated it as -1 since it is well written (even if what's there isn't such a great idea), and it is Niven. How long before Niven reaches that awful place Asimov and Heinlein have found? Stephen Perelgut Computer Systems Research Institute, University of Toronto ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!gcc@caip.rutgers.edu (Greg C Croasdill) Subject: ST Books Date: 15 Nov 85 21:06:20 GMT G'day In responce to a request put in this here NG some days ago I would like to offer some quick tips / reviews on some of the Star Trek books that have been published in the last few years. rating scale : (0) = DOG! - don't waste your money *** = Average - If you have a few extra hours ... ***** = Must Read. POCKET Books *** #1 Star Trek: The Motion Picture *** #2 The Entropy Effect * #3 The Klingon Gambit * #4 The Covenant of the Crown (0) #5 The Prometheus Design *** #6 The Abode of Life ***** #7 The Wrath of Kahn *** #8 Black Fire (a 'get' Spock, but fun) (0) #9 Triangle *** #10 Web of the Romulans ** #11 Yesterday's Son * #12 Mutiny on the Enterprise ***** #13 The Wounded Sky ** #14 The Trellisane Confrontation ** #15 Corona ***** #16 The Final Reflection (About the Klingon civilization - very, very well done) *** #15 Star Trek III: The Search for Spock ***** #18 My Enemy, My Ally (About Romulans) **** #19 Tears of the Singers ***1/2 #20 The Vulcan Academy Murders (A so so whodunit) *** #21 Uhura's Song * #22 Shadow Lord ***** #23 Ishmael (Spock visits Seattle ('Here come the brides')) (0) #24 Killing Time (the only one I couldn't finish) * #25 Dwellers of the Crucible (I'm being nice here) ** #26 Pawns and Symbols (Looks good so far (pg.123)) Well those are all of the Pocket books out there as of this week. Bantam has some too, but they are all old. Pocket is the official ST publisher. Hopes this help you from a) buying dogs b) missing some good books Greg C. (gcc @uw-beaver!ssc) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 85 10:07:19 EST From: Daniel Dern Subject: Mini-Reviews & Cheap Shots (Non-spoilers) THE CAT WHO WALKED THROUGH WALLS, Robert A Heinlein God stopped creating after Friday. I wish Heinlein had followed suit. ROBOT & EMPIRE, Isaac Asimov Dern's 4th Law of Robotics -- A robot shall not bore a human being to death, now, through inaction, allow other characters to do so. I found BOTH these books very disappointing. CAT was OK through page 150, and adequate through 250, although the plot was minimal and lacking any real movement (...Strange things happened. Heroes threatened. Heroes flee. Heroes hassled. But Why?...) CAT, up to page 250, is not as excessive as Heinlein's last few, in terms of interminable debate on protocols, or icky-poo adults swapping warm fuzzies. Then the tail third of the book commits terminal indulgence, by my eyes, and returns to the plot four pages before the end, just in time to wimp out. Assuming you grant the driving premise of the plot action -- why Our Heroes must do what they gotta do -- that still doesn't account for why This Way or These Folks in Particular. I wish he hadna dunnit. R&E continues Asimov's increasing trend to conversational overkill. By the time it comes together, I didn't care. I don't care whether he ties his books together or not. Yawn. A few nice touches in an otherwise empty book. Clarke's 2010 was one of the better SF 'sequels' I've seen to date. Clarke both wrote a good book and retrofit facts well. But he was only trying to tie up one book's worth of loose ends. For a real good 'sequel', read John D. MacDonald's lastest Travis Magee book, SILVER [word forgotten] RAIN. Great action, good plot, great changes and surprises. MacDonald knows how and where to bring back loose ends. Any (non-spoiler) comments on Gordon Dickson's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA? daniel dern ddern@bbn.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Fri 29 Nov 85 00:30:03-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Shaver Mystery explained. Well here is what the Fancyclopedia II (Richard Eney 1959) has to say about the 'Shaver Mystery'. (Quoted without permission). [start of quotation] (deleted) [end of quotation] Obscurantisms: Club House: A department in Amazing magazine, reporting on events in many SF clubs. FAPA: Fantasy Amateur Press Association, a fanzine. Insurgents: A fun-loving movement within fandom decrying Serious Constructivism. QSFL: Queens Science Fiction League. RAP: Raymond A Palmer, the editor of Amazing who tolerated Shaver. His affinity of nutcase material gave rise to 'Palmerism', a generic term for catering to lowest common denominator. (the crap in the 'Antimatter' pages of OMNI is a good example of latter-day Palmerism). stf: No-longer used contraction of 'scientifiction'. We now use 'SF'. Eney has a similar trashing of 'scientology', but this letter has already run on far too long. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 85 12:48:25 EST From: Louis Steinberg Subject: two more "name that story" requests Here are two short stories I'd like to get pointers to. Please at least CC me in the reply, as I am often weeks behind on reading SF-LOVERS. Thanks in advance to all. 1) Two agents for competing powers crashland on a primitive planet. This planet has extremely dense air, so that the fairly primitive cultures there have built human-powered aircraft (or maybe they are just gliders?). Key to the plot are the facts that neither agent knows the local language, one agent (the protagonist) doesn't know any linguistics but does know about airplanes, and the competing agent does know a lot of linguistics. 2) Time travel has been invented, but you have to be REAL CAREFUL back then or you will change the future. Expeditions are mounted to the past to hunt dinosaurs, but only after very careful study of the particular dinosaur being hunted to make sure killing it won't have major effects. The protagonist is a klutz who panics, steps off the approved path (a walkway somehow levitated off the ground?), kills a butterfly, and goes back to his normal time to find much changed - his first hint is when he sees signs with strange spellings. Louis Steinberg uucp: {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!topaz!steinber note no "g" - #&%'$# 8 char limit! ^ arpa: STEINBERG@RUTGERS ------------------------------ From: friedman@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 29 Nov 85 14:52:00 GMT > A while ago, I read a short story -- wish I could find it again -- > based on a society of all males. They were humans; their > ancestors had been in a space disaster that had stranded them > without women on some previously uninhabited planet. The > survivors of the disaster had cloning technology that they used > for domestic animals, and they adapted the technology to > themselves. The society had become primitive, and no longer > understood their own reproduction, but were able to maintain and > utilize the cloning machinery their ancestors had set up. A > pretty interesting story was placed in this society. Does this > sound familiar to anyone? A couple of people have suggested possible stories that meet the above description (which I originally posted). Thanks, but those weren't the stories I was thinking of. I finally found it by looking through my back issues of Asimov's. The story is "Full Fathom Five My Father Lies", by Rand B. Lee, in IASFM for Feb. 16, 1981. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 5 Dec 85 1036-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #451 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 5 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 451 Today's Topics: Books - Harrison & Shave Mysteries & Boscure Book Pointers Requested, Miscellaneous - Chattacon 11 & Feminism & Aliens ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: reed!kamath@caip.rutgers.edu (Sean Kamath) Subject: Jim diGriz Date: 30 Nov 85 08:20:31 GMT Interestingly enough, on the back cover of _The Stainless Steel Rat for President_ and _The Stainless Steel Rat Wants You!_ it says: "...Slippery Jim diGriz, the 30th century's..." but on the front cover of _A Stainless Steel Rat is Born_ it says: "The uncanny origin of the 25th century's most canny criminal!" what's the buzz? Between the ages of 17 and whenever he is in the other two, he survived for 500 year? 8-) BTW: Does anyone know if the original Stainless Steal Rat stories were published by Bantam Books? Also, does anyone know the third book in Michael Moorcock's "Eternal Champion" trilogy? (The one that starts out with Erikose in the Eternal Champion and continues with Count Urlick in The Silver Worriors) Thanks Sean Kamath {decvax,ihnp4,ucbcad}!tektronix!reed!kamath ------------------------------ From: hpda!on@caip.rutgers.edu (Owen Rowley) Subject: Re: The "Shaver Mysteries"? Date: 26 Nov 85 19:24:02 GMT >From: Will Martin -- AMXAL-RI >One of John W. Campbell's pet projects (along with dianetics and >the Dean Drive) was, I believe, something called "The Shaver >Mysteries". If I have that wrong, I'm sure someone will correct it! >:-) In any case, though I know something about the other subjects, >I don't know anything about these "Shaver Mysteries". I can't >recall if the word "Shaver" is a person's name or a generic noun, >like "Egyptian". Anybody have some concise explanations of what >this was about, and if interest in it has persisted to the current >day among certain circles? Its been a long time so my details may be sketchy (hopefully not too inaccurate) Richard Shaver was a Pulp writer who wrote several stories about his adventures in a Vast underground cavern system, it was populated by two races of people the Dero's (the Bad Guys) and the Terros (good guys). Shaver wrote his stuff as if it were Fact but published it in Pulps with lots of other fabulous fiction. Ray Palmer , a UFO buff of the 40's and 50's published the bulk of Shavers stuff in various pulp magazines of his. Inner Worlds was one pulp that was primarily devoted to Shavers material and other Hollow Earth material. Basicly the Deros were using pre-deluge Hi tech mind manipulation devices, left over from Atlantis or Mu to control the Surface World folks (Us). Their (the Dero's) motives were chaotic evil in D&D terms. Shaver encountered the Tero on a spelunking adventure and was seduced by a lovely Tero lady, who spilled the beans to him about all this underground intrigue. You see the Tero were the enemy of the Dero and they used their psychic powers to counteract the Dero's mischief. Shaver claimed that it was all true and maintained that posture until his death. (apx 1974-5 I think?) In his last years he got into a new side line though, he would cut rocks in half with a rock saw and photograph the grainy surface of the cut rock. He claimed that these rocks were actually remnants of a pre-diluvian holographic storage system that was used to archive the wisdom of the ancients. His photos were usually crudely retouched to make the images clearer. It was all pretty sad really. I was close friends with a woman who believed every word of it she would buy his booklets and send him money to support his "research". Everything bad that happened was the result of Dero interference. It was great fun for paranoids. I tried my best to make it brief!! I hope this is what you were looking for! Owen Rowley {ucbvax|hplabs}!hpda!on ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 85 19:39:07 PST From: raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA Subject: Obscure books >From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu >... Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have yet to >see. Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA please >respond. ... I was also looking for "Triple Detente" long ago but could not find it. TD was an interesting book about three alien races governing each other to prevent war. (I know this is a fuzzy description. You don't want a spoiler, do you?) I read TD in high school and also want to read it again. I think your best bet is the used bookstores. I believe DAW published it. I have not tried very hard to find it. Another book in a similar vein is "Conscious Interplanetary", author forgotten. A "Conscious" is like a doctorate degree given to specially trained people. These individuals are literally the "conscious" of the human race as they judge whether a habitable planet contains intelligent life. If not, the humans move in and wipe out all alien life. If so, the planet is left alone. This proves to be an immense responsibility because of the moral versus economic/population/political factors involved. The adventures in the book are quite entertaining. I would appreciate pointers to either of the above books. ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 2 Dec 1985 08:45:29-PST From: cobb%srvax.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: CHATTACON 11 INFORMATION Here is information on CHATTACON 11, Chattanooga's Science Fiction Convention held in January. This convention is getting better ever year, I'm really excited about the art show for this years convention. I'm going to be there, maybe I'll see you. Ken Cobb C H A T T A C O N 11 (JANUARY 17-19, 1986) Guest of Honor: James P. Hogan Artist GOH: Michael Whelan Master of Ceremonies: Wilson Tucker Fan Artist GOH: Danny Gill Special Guest: John Maddox Roberts Other Guests: Robert Adams Jerry Ahern Robert Asprin Orson Scott Card Jack Chalker C. J. Cherryh John M. Ford Robert Jordan John Steakley Brad Strickland Sharon Webb Timothy Zahn This years CHATTACON will have an excellent Art show. Not only will Michael Whelan (Artist GOH) display examples of his work, we also have the following artists confirmed as guests: Doug Chaffee David A. Cherry Casper Cox Kelly Freas Danny Gill Dell Harris Val Lakey Lindahn Ron Lindahn Beth Willinger CHATTACON will once again be held at the READ HOUSE hotel. Located in downtown Chattanooga at the corner of Broad Street and M. L. King Blvd. For reservations call toll free (800) 251-6443. (in Tennessee call (800) 572-7304 or locally (615) 266-4121. The READ HOUSE has 255 rooms, and lets not forget a Jacuzzi for CHATTACON's use. (I like the Jacuzzi myself !!) Membership includes all activities with the exception of the Banquet. For more information or preregistration write to: CHATTACON P. O. BOX 921 HIXSON, TN 37343 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 85 11:12 EST From: " Roz " Subject: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars) The following message excerpts prompted a very long response (probably preachy) which I have edited down to the following remarks. I saved the original reply and will provide it to those who happen to be interested in a non-digest discussion--which could easily digress to non-science fiction topics! >From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan) >What Heinlein wrote for teenaged females in 1962 was appropriate >*for the time*. What it says is, "-Hey, the future isn't going to >be all that different from the present; women will fill the same >roles they always have, and (1962) males' assumptions of what those >roles are will remain unchallenged-". Not necessarily so. Even uncritical readers (or listeners or watchers, for those not old enough to read yet) notice differences or contradictions in what they see and hear in real life and fiction. It is our responsibility as adults and parents to ensure that the difference is there to detect! But you are right in that, women will fill the same roles they always have, *IF* we do nothing to change it; if we do not show the change(s) and the reason(s) behind it. It starts at home, but cannot be limited to the home--it must include all aspects of our lives and whom they touch directly and indirectly. I intend to either have Andy read Podkayne or read it to him--and I expect to use it as a means and an opening to questions, and/or comments from him both at the time and at some future time. >Well, I say, hey, this is *1985*, (in case you hadn't noticed :-), >and women's roles *have* changed, and are continuing to change. An >uncritical reader (such as most junior high and high school >students) will likely not question what Heinlein says about women's >roles. Sorry, as much as motherly pride wants me to think that my son is precocious, I really don't think he is. I believe uncritical readers and listeners do notice the differences. Andy is only 7 has seen (recently) the classic Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein movies. He remembered his dad and I talking about how the monster did not die in the book they way he did in the movies. Several weeks later, he was asking why the monster died in one and not the other. That spawned a short discussion on the difference (at times) between books and the movies they are made from. More below. >This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing. I don't want to see >reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, I mean men, >too) have fought to eliminate for so long. Sometimes, they don't ask questions--they say or do something which says they have keyed in on the stereotype...then (preferably without rancor, anger, excitement) 'you' say "not necessarily, Johnny. Some women chose those careers some don't. Many women cook--but cooking is not women's work, most chefs and restaurant cooks are men. Do you like to eat? If you can't cook for yourself, you have to find (and pay) someone to do it for you." Or something similar. You have to gear it to the individual's (age) level. It means paying attention, to what your children (or those children you influence) are doing, reading, seeing, saying, etc. Something we are frequently too busy to be bothered with. My theory is that 80% of a child's unconcious attitudes and personality are formed before they start school, and they are at the 95% point by the time they are 7 or 8 or 9. The remainder comes slowly. Concious changes to their attitudes and personality come later, and can be significant--if they are willing to expend the effort (I did some, when I was in college--talk about EFFORT!) >I graduated from high school in 1976, and the school system then >was still steering girls away from math. What does Podkayne say? >"-It doesn't look good for a girl to know math, so even if you do >know math, don't let anyone know about it. Men are such fragile >creatures that they won't be able to handle it.-" The only way to change adult attitudes easily, (see above) is while they are still children. I am a 1967 High School graduate from a conservative (most likely) small farming/forest-industry-town school (in Oregon). The teachers and guidance people never tried to steer me away from math and science (not that I remember, anyhow); but, I do remember my father telling (ordering?) me to take four years of math, science, and a foreign language in high school, and when more than one level was available, the highest level offered in a class. (Most of my classes were about 50-50 split, or higher on the girls side--if off-balance.) Any 'fun' classes (music, business, etc) had to be taken instead of study hall. I remember getting phone calls for 3 consecutive summers telling me that I could not take my proposed 7-course load for the following year--that I would have to chose one course to be replaced with study hall. Needless to say, knowing my father's opinions, it was always the fun class which was dropped! Even if the school had tried to steer me away, my father's (and mother's) influence would have been stronger than the school's. (By the by, when I entered college, I was a geology-chemistry major at a state engineering and science school.) >This doesn't strike me as being very fair to women OR men! Yes, that's true; but, as we have all learned--real life is rarely fair. And I have run into my share of white and blue collar workers, professors, and other professionals who literally or figuratively pat me on the head and say "you are a nice girl, what is your job at the military hospital (it's not); or you are a pretty girl, but what can you possibly know about electrical engineering and electronics let along communications theory or digital control theory or what's wrong with your car or your yard tractor or ..." I don't even consider myself a feminist or militant, but I do get angry and upset. I do try to set each individual straight - sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. The children of today and the future are our best hopes. You don't convert people to a new way of thought by being militant (my opinion--because I don't like someone else's ideas forced down my own throat). I'm sorry, it still came out longer than I had intended even with the editing! Feel free to flame to my 'home address', although I won't be able to respond until after 9 or 10 Dec due to a business trip! RTaylor@radc-multics USnail: Branch P.O. Box 1241 Rome, NY 13441 ------------------------------ Date: 29 Nov 85 10:38:45 PST (Friday) Subject: Re: Space Is Clean From: Kurt > There is a fallacy here, the assumption that the set of >possible forms taken by living things is unrestricted. In fact the >structure of living things is controlled by "natural laws" in about >the same way as the interactions of subatomic particles are. >Basically you are *both* wrong. Living things from other planets >would match neither of your ideas. Giant insects are highly >unlikely for mechanical and physiological reasons, as are large, >intelligent slimes. Tentacles *might* develop on "humanoids", but >they would end up looking rather like monkeys' tails. A monolith or >a beach ball would be a lousy form for anything except perhaps some >sort of plant, and would be unlikely to be either mobile or >intelligent. Berserkers are *artificial*. Aren't you making some rather sweeping assumptions about what sort of environments life can arise in? I think I agree that life forms from essentially terran environments are likely to bear great similarities to terran life, and may even have very close DNA analogues. However, that's about as far as I'm willing to go. Consider the sulfur consuming life forms found in deep oceans, which follow a totally new and previously unsuspected food chain based not on solar but chemical energy (oh, solar way back, but fundamentally different in that no photosynthesizing plants are part of the chain). Surely, with the limited set of environmental conditions we have been able to examine, we are in no position to make any claims about what life forms are likely to arise or become sentient. With this lack of information, I'd also be unwilling to generalize about any chance of overlap. One can imagine a number of possible cases where humans and aliens have no overlap at all except a need survive and to reproduce. There are also serious questions about whether the human world-view may have any resemblance to one developed by alien sentients, particularly those with vastly different body structures. Kurt ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Dec 85 0933-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #452 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 452 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Asimov & Farmer (2 msgs) & Heinlein & Sucharitkul & Wolfe, Films - King Arthur & Battlefield Earth, Radio - Ruby, Miscellaneous - World Design Service ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: prostho plus Date: 2 Dec 85 23:42:44 GMT I have a copy of Protho Plus, Piers Anthony's series of stories about a prosthodontist (a dentist who makes false teeth, more or less) who is captured by aliens. It is about a million times funnier than the Xanth books. I think that my copy was published by Sphere, in Britain, in the mid-70's. Really great, and someone should reissue it. There's been a lot of his old hack writing (as opposed to new hack writing) reissued recently, especially by TOR, but I haven't seen anything about Triple Detente or The Ring or Mandroid or the ESP Worm. Laurence Roberts ...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Nov 85 08:43 EST From: " Roz " Subject: Re: Immortality & Robots and Empire SECOND PARAGRAPH HAS QUOTE FROM ROBOTS AND EMPIRE--Possible spoiler? I've been reading Robots and Empire, and love it--I have not found it slow or dull or boring. I am an unabashed Asimov Fan! It is not an adventure-type story, at least not in the way I associate with Asimov's other robot novels and stories (I am a mystery buff, too!). I like the personality/character development the story shows--including the insights into Daneel, Giskard, Gladia, D.G., et al. Granted, I don't always appreciate that kind of writing, and it is not everyone else's 'cup of tea' either--but it seems to fit into the Robots and Empire story line quite well, explains (at least to me) quite a few things. I am trying not to be too specific on purpose--I don't want to be a "spoiler". Another possible explanation for the story not seeming slow to me, is that I have only been able to read it in snatches of 5, 10 & 15 minute batches (and I am NOT [repeat NOT] a speed reader). Although spacers are not immortal, I liked Gladia's exposition (to D.G. when he advises her not to specifically mention her age) ***Possible spoiler QUOTATION*** "Would you like to have me make a speech and tell them exactly what forty decades means? Shall I tell them for how many years one outlives the springtime of hope, to say nothing of friends and acquaintances. Shall I tell them of the meaninglessness of children and family; of the endless comings and goings of one husband after another, of the misty blurring of the informal matings between and alongside; of the coming of the time when you've seen all you want to see, and heard all you want to hear, and find it impossible to think a new thought, of how you forget what excitement and discovery are all about, and learn each year how much more intense boredom can become?" [...] "I only know for certain how I myself feel, but I've watched others dim as they aged; I've watched their dispositions sour, and their ambitions narrow, and their indifferences broaden." ***End QUOTATION*** My grandmother is 96/97 years old; she had 8 daughters; she has outlived 3 husbands and 4 of those daughters. Several years ago, shortly after the death of one of her daughters, we talked. The deaths of her friends, contemporaries, and elders bothered her, but not nearly so much as the deaths of those younger than her. She could understand accidents and war (although she did not approve), but ill health leading to death in someone younger than her (especially her daughters) made her feel as if she were aging faster than she felt whe should. If I were near to her now, I would like to ask her about the above quotation and get her opinion--I think she would tend to agree. Needless to say, but I am enjoying Robots and Empire, for what it is. Roz Feel free to flame to my 'home address', although I won't be able to respond until after 9 or 10 Dec due to a business trip! RTaylor@radc-multics USnail: Branch P.O. Box 1241 Rome, NY 13441 ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: Re: A Feast Unknown Date: 2 Dec 85 20:57:13 GMT Is/was there a Farmer book devoted solely to a modernized Tarzan? Or was there such a book and it was incorporated into or rewritten to become part of A FEAST UNKNOWN? I have a vague recollection of reading a library copy of a book about a mad scientist recreating a Tarzan-like person by putting a male baby into an environment where he was raised by apes and had no contact with civilization until adult. All I can recall about the book was that the mad scientist lived on a pinnacle in the middle of a lake, and had the capability to spy on/watch the proto-Tarzan and his interaction with the native tribes (I think they all were imprisoned in the area somehow, maybe by surrounding impassable cliffs). The only other thing I recall was the scientist getting furious when the Tarzan-like boy engaged in sexual experimentation with the young native girls, actions which the scientist felt were "unbecoming" to the image he was trying to inculcate... :-) Will ------------------------------ From: im4u!jsq@caip.rutgers.edu (John Quarterman) Subject: Re: A Feast Unknown (Lord Tyger) Date: 3 Dec 85 03:32:16 GMT >Is/was there a Farmer book devoted solely to a modernized Tarzan? It's called Lord Tyger. Set in the highlands of Gabon with dwarfs playing the parts of the primates. John Quarterman, UUCP: {ihnp4,seismo,harvard,gatech}!ut-sally!im4u!jsq ARPA Internet and CSNET: jsq@im4u.UTEXAS.EDU, formerly jsq@im4u.ARPA ------------------------------ From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: JOB - Mini Review from a UK viewpoint Date: 2 Dec 85 11:25:47 GMT Very readable, quite entertaining. I haven't read much RAH recently; this was better than I was lead to expect. Needs a strong-minded editor to compress the first half. One alternate universe is much like another. Shouldn't Alec have noticed environmental differences? (More/less atmospheric pollution, etc.) Born-again Christianity isn't such a big deal here - this makes the discussions in the first half pretty boring. Perhaps they could have been Irish Protestant and Catholic? (But this would have made it all too serious?) Heaven/Hell sequence is good fun. Makes good play of the fact that even Heaven must be pretty bad if the inhabitants don't live up to their surroundings. (There goes the neighbourhood!) Niven/Pournelle did Hell much better in Inferno (recommended). Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: sucharitkul Date: 2 Dec 85 23:42:44 GMT I've read all of Sucharitkul's books besides the Alien Swordmaster. I didn't think the Aquiliad was that great. It and Mallworld both present The problem of his humor. They're very funny, but they never make you actually laugh out loud. Strange. His books are not stocked every- where, but a good sf bookstore should have the Aquiliad. Laurence Roberts ...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl ------------------------------ From: stolaf!robertsl@caip.rutgers.edu (Laurence C. Roberts) Subject: Gene Wolfe Date: 2 Dec 85 23:42:44 GMT How's about some new Gene Wolfe? There's supposedly a mass-market hardcover of Free Live Free out now, but I haven't been to a store recently. Anything more about the opera he was going to do with Sucharitkul as composer? And just what is Castle of the Otter? Laurence Roberts ...ihnp4!stolaf!robertsl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: KING ARTHUR: THE YOUNG WARLORD Date: 30 Nov 85 00:00:58 GMT KING ARTHUR: THE YOUNG WARLORD A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: Occasionally interesting, episodic story of King Arthur treats him as an historical figure rather than as a legend. Often it feels a little sugary, like a children's TV series. To start with, I am not sure this is even a movie in the usual sense. It may be just episodes of a British TV series cobbled together for the videocassette market. It is not about the legendary Arthur. There is no witchcraft or wizardry. Instead, it is about a chieftain who wants to unite his neighbors against common enemies. To some extent it does try to explain how the legends got started. As an object lesson, he has four neighboring chieftains each push with one hand on a rock and it moves enough that he can pull out a sword on which the rock was resting. None had been able to withdraw the sword himself. When they allowed Arthur to organize them, Arthur could withdraw the sword. This could easily be a de-embellishment of the story of the sword in the stone. The film itself is very episodic and could easily be edited from episodes of a good TV series (does anyone know if Oliver Tobias starred in a British TV series about King Arthur around 1975?). Actually the show was stolen by Brian Blessed as Mark of Cornwall, a dangerous and troublesome ally of Arthur's. Of course Blessed has never been in a role in which he didn't steal the show. As a film, rate this a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Nov 1985 23:55:08-PST From: wood%nermal.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Celeste DTN522-2590 CX01-1/P23 From: NERMAL::WOOD) Subject: Battlefield Earth I also had a FYI comment on the "Battelfield Earth" rating. I have avoided reading the book for some time because its thickness was too intimidating. However, if the book is really that good I'll make an effort. I wonder how good a job they are doing on the movie! Yes, movie. They cast a male and female lead locally last spring. (They had to be blond and short Male 5'7" and Female 5'2" for working with special effects props.) They supposedly began filming in the Summer down around Pueblo, Colorado. Isn't it nice that someone actually films on location once in a while. I really get sick of seeing Wyoming mountains in movies set in Colorado. ------------------------------ Date: Saturday, 30 Nov 1985 23:55:08-PST From: wood%nermal.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Celeste DTN522-2590 CX01-1/P23 From: NERMAL::WOOD) Subject: SF Radio A lot of SF fans are into animated stuff and movies. Has anyone else heard of other media. Specifically, I was wondering if anyone out there has heard of "Ruby", the adventures of a Galactic Gumshoe. This is a radio serial and is, in my opinion, a lot of fun. It has all sorts of nasty and nice aliens, great puns, some mind games, and a great heroine. Stereotyped detective but not necessarily masculine. I first heard it on a local public radio station and have since bought my own copies of the stories "Ruby" and "Ruby II" from ZBS Foundation RR #1, Box 1201 Fort Edward, NY 12828 (518)-695-6409 I am curious if anyone else does science fiction of this nature and if there are any other really good stories out. I sort of like having the radio sounds because it leaves a little more for me to imagine than a picture would. It is almost as good as reading in that respect. ------------------------------ From: wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) Subject: World-design service Date: 2 Dec 85 20:29:22 GMT The following is from the Winston-Salem (NC) Journal of Sunday, 17 Nov 85. I thought SF-Lovers would find it of interest: PROFESSOR USES SCIENCE TO DESIGN WORLDS TO WRITERS' SPECIFICATIONS By Frank Tursi, Journal Reporter Guilford College -- It is written that the world was created in seven days. Sheridan Simon could probably do the job in half the time. In all fairness, though, it should be pointed out that Simon has help. He does his creating with a personal computer. Simon, a physics professor at Guilford College, designs worlds for science-fiction writers. Most are young, budding novelists who don't know enough science to create their own fictional planets. For a few dollars, Simon will do it for them, making sure that the planets fit the writers' specifications and are scientifically accurate. "The real pros know how to go about it and don't need me," explains Simon, a balding and soft-spoken man, as he sits behind his cluttered desk in the basement of King Hall on the college campus. "I would be delighted if Isaac Asimov called, but that's not going to happen." Since most of his clients are young, Simon keeps his prices low. For simple jobs, like figuring out how long a day would be on an imaginary planet, Simon charges about $5. His fees are higher for more complicated projects that could take three or four days. The most he has charged is $30. "This is a hobby with me. I'm not getting rich off it," he said. It all started four years ago when Simon, 38, ran an ad in "Locus" magazine, a small trade journal for science-fiction writers. Simon is an avid reader of science fiction and has published a few science-fiction short stories. He also has some unpublished book manuscripts stuffed in a desk at home. "I got to thinking: 'Look, I know all about the science of this. Why not try my hand at designing planets,'" he said. "But I really didn't think anything would come of it." Since the ad ran, Simon has received about one request a month. Some have come from Australia and Hong Kong. Most, though, are from writers in the United States. Simon hands across a recent letter. It's from a prison inmate in California who needs some help with a planet that he plans to include in his novel. Included in the letter is a crude drawing of a planet about the size of Jupiter. A couple of moons are shown revolving about it. "I don't know what the guy's in for," Simon said, "but science-fiction writing has to be less socially damaging." Most requests have been for descriptions of planets around the Alpha Centauri system. The star system is the closest to Earth and one of the best known. Then there are the unusual. Simon remembered the man who sent along the last scene of his novel. It had the two main characters standing on a beach watching the sun set. It sank slowly below the horizon, then rose again within a few minutes. "He said he just had to have his novel end that way," Simon said. "I wracked my brain over that one for a week, trying to think if it could be caused by some optical illusion." Finally a solution dawned. What you have, Simon wrote back, is a prolate spheroid. When a star, like our sun, revolves slowly, it takes a nice round shape. The faster it spins, the more it flattens out. If it rotates very quickly, say every 20 minutes or so, it looks very much like a football. Physicists call such an object a prolate. "So what you had here was a star rotating like a bat out of hell," Simon said. "It spun like an end-over-end football as it travelled across the sky, and it looked like it rose just after it set." The explanation satisfied the writer. Simon admits that he often steps over the line that separates science from fiction, but that is half the fun. "Just think of the uncertainties of the weather, and we live on this planet," he said. "So it can get very speculative. "What I'm doing shows that science is interesting and it's fun," he said. "It's not just some guys in white coats standing over bubbling test tubes." Simon has yet to see any of his creations in print. "but it's just a matter of time," he said. "Sooner or later it's bound to happen." ***End of article*** ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 6 Dec 85 1024-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #453 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 6 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 453 Today's Topics: Books - Bradbury & Dean & Kurtz (2 msgs) & Varley & Nebula Awards & A Request, Plays - The Zombie, Miscellaneous - Feminism (2 msgs) & Immortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Bradbury Date: 03 Dec 85 13:59:26 PST (Tue) From: Dave Godwin Hi folks. Unnoticed by many, Ray Bradbury has gone and published his first novel in many many years ( when did October People/Something Wicked ... first come out ? ). The reason that the basic sf/fantasy types haven't bumped into it yet is because it's not an sf/fantasy type book. For the most part 'Death is a Lonely Business' is a detective novel, altough much of the book contains Bradbury's haunting images and plot details. The story takes place in the long gone Vennis, California, of the last 1940s. The Old Pier was still existent, the canals where clean and full of sea water, and the red trolly cars still raced up and down the boulevards. The story is that of a young writer, a man who remains nameless throughout the book. One by one, people are dieing in seemingly accidental ways all about the city. Each of these people are unusual or even wonderful in some very mundane fashion, and some are known to the author. He believes that the death were not accidental, and convinces a detective friend that he may be correct. I will not detail the rest, but the story is NOT typical murder mystery stuff. The characterisations, of the author, of the old-style gritty but compassionate police detective, and all the rest just spring to life in the style that only Bradbury can achieve. The images of Old Vennis, of the pier and the beaches, of the dark and fog filled nighttime street, wow, it all just hops of the page. In short, this is a truely marvelous book. So, OK, I'm playing this book up a lot, right ? Well, OK, so where most of you people got your start on Heinlein and his ilk, I started on Bradbury, and from there moved on to Clarke and the Hard Stuff. Bradbury left a very deep impression on me. Most of his work is in short story form, which can keep a boy's attention much better than a novel. The stories dealt with ideas and images, with feelings, not with blazing star ships and heros of a different sort than you will find in Greenville, Illinois. ( My father gave me Bradbury's 'The Halloween Tree' when I was real little. How many boys know anymore about the real magic of a Halloween night ? I know one book I'm going to give my son when he gets old enough. ) In addition to my initial teething on Bradbury, I grew up in Vennis, at a time when the trollies and canals still had a bit of life to them, and the new pier ( the one with that great old merry-go-round ) was still in one piece. This book brought back that memories and magic of that time for me. So, yes, for me more than most this was a special book, and I think that the rest of you unfortunates that had to grow up elsewhere should take a look at it too. Even if you've never liked Bradbury, this book may really change your mind. OK, I'm done. Flames and discussion to the net are welcomed. Dave Godwin University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ From: ut-ngp!stacie@caip.rutgers.edu (Stacie D. McGill) Subject: "Secret Country" Date: 4 Dec 85 15:25:03 GMT Does anyone know when the sequel to "Secret Country" by Pamela Dean is coming out? Thanks Stacie McGill stacie@ngp.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Monday, 2 Dec 1985 07:05:31-PST From: devi%maisha.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Gita L. Devi PKO1/D1 223-7046) Subject: Katherine Kurtz Randall Neff stated that he recently talked with Katherine Kurtz and she said that the third book of the "Bishop's Heir" trilogy has gone to Del Rey. What has happened to the second book? When is this due out? Or is it already out somewhere? Waiting to hear..... Gita Devi ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adsk@caip.rutgers.edu (David S Kerven) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz Date: 3 Dec 85 19:39:38 GMT Yes, Gita the book, The King's Justice, is out in hard cover and can be found at many book stores. I personally purchased my copy at a Barnes & Nobles, but I have seen at several other shops in my area. David S. Kerven ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Comments Anyone? Date: 2 Dec 85 18:00:47 GMT > The Gaean trilogy is good indeed but it's nothing compared to what > he used to do (Ophiuchi Hotline for example). I'm a bit > disappointed that my favorite authors, Varley and Silverberg, have > started writing this "heroic" stuff. The best part about Gaea is > the scenery, like the opening pages of the third book (Demon). > The climax of the story I forgot as soon as I read it. If you don't like quest books, the Gaea trilogy will disappoint you. Technically, though, the Gaea books are better than his earlier books. I was quite disappointed in Ophiuchi because Varley hadn't yet learned how to carry the intensity of his shorter works into the longer lengths. Titan had this problem as well to some degree, but Wizard and Demon were quite good. Millenium is also a good novel, but if you want classic Varley, stick to the shorter stuff. Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: gladys!dalton@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dalton) Subject: Nebula Awards Report Date: 30 Nov 85 22:57:22 GMT As many of you know, the contest for the annual Nebula Awards is much like a horse race. Unlike the Hugo Awards, which are based on votes cast by fans attending the annual world science fiction convention, the Nebulas are voted on only by professionals in science fiction/fantasy. During the year, nominations trickle in from members of the Science Fiction Writers of America. The awards are given by SFWA, and only members of SFWA can vote. SFWA's secretary for the Nebula report counts the nominations and periodically mails a tally to SFWA members: that's the horse race part of it. At the end of the year, all the works with at least three recommendations are listed on a preliminary ballot; active SFWA members vote, and the top five vote-getters are put on the final ballot, along with a single work in each category added at the option of the Nebula Jury. (The Nebula Jury this year consists of Michael Swanwick, chairman; and Pat Cadigan, Orson Scott Card, Michael Cassutt, Robert Frazier, Marj Krueger and Lewis Shiner.) Active members then submit a ranked vote on the final ballot. The winner in each category is given the Nebula Award at the annual banquet. The 1985 Nebulas will be presented in April 1986 in San Francisco. The catogories are: Novel (40,000 words or more); Novella (17,500 - 39,999); Novelet (7,500 - 17499); and Short Story (7,499 or fewer). As of November 28, this is how the horse race stands. The leaders are: Novel: ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card Novella: SAILING TO BYZANTIUM by Robert Silverberg (Asimov's, February) Novelet: THE JAGUAR HUNTER by Lucius Shepard (F&SF, May) Short Story: THE FRINGE by Orson Scott Card (F&SF October) By pure coincidence, Orson Scott Card is the NAR secretary this year. The full Nebula reports are available on my non-Unix BBS, Science Fiction Writers' Network, at 919-922-3308. Scott Card updates the reports weekly. I will continue to post a list of the leaders on sf-lovers periodically if there is an interest in it. The full report is quite long, so I'll spare you. By the way, ENDER'S GAME is one of the finest novels I've read in a while. The premise is not a new one now: A wargames simulation that is much more than it appears to be. But Card's writing style is disciplined and highly readable. And the tenderness and brutality with which he handles his characters can be quite moving. Right now, hardcover only, TOR. The paperback is due in early 1986, along with the sequel, SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD. ------------------------------ From: cisden!john@caip.rutgers.edu (John Woolley) Subject: Can't remember book or author Date: 2 Dec 85 21:58:23 GMT Can anyone identify the book I'm about to describe inadequately? I don't know author or title (unless the title is _The Survivors_ or something like that -- 20% accurate guess), but it was in print in paperback by 1968, when I read and loved it. A space liner is hit by pirates. The survivors are set down on an inhospitable planet, where most of them die right off. The rest, gradually, over generations, become adjusted, with the help of some little telepathic ground- hogs they carry around to use as telephones. Eventually, they build or steal a ship, or are rescued, or something. Sounds pretty bad, but I remember it as good. Thank you all. Peace and Good!, (Fr.) John Woolley ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: THE ZOMBIE Date: 29 Nov 85 23:59:43 GMT THE ZOMBIE A dinner theater review by Mark R. Leeper For some time I'd been planning to see what the local dinner theaters in my area were like. When the Dam Site Theater in Tinton Falls, New Jersey, had a horror-comedy called THE ZOMBIE right around Evelyn's birthday, the combination seemed unbeatable. The play itself was the creation of Tim Kelly, who has done quite a number of stage plays tinged with horror, including a version of THE UNINVITED, TERROR BY GASLIGHT, a non-musical SWEENEY TODD, and FRANKENSTEIN. THE ZOMBIE is itself an enjoyable stage play with a story that would have made a bad horror film. Dr. Samedi lives on the edge of Florida's Okefenokee Swamp and makes a modest living turning locals into zombies to be used on local farms as cheap labor. The audience seemed to think that this was a comic touch, to use zombies as slaves. In fact, this is the traditional use to which zombies were put. The plot itself is more tightly written than it at first would seem and some of what initially seem like absurd coincidences seem a little less so by the end of the film. The local production was fun but a little less than professional. The chief villain was played by Jack Ryan, who uses the stage name of Jake de Fayke. The name is funnier than the actor, who projects better than he acts. In fact, the most interesting acting was in two of the lesser roles. Kaye Ernst was the best of the lot with a marvelous range of comic facial expressions. Bob Koerner had a most undemanding role as a catatonic zombie, and was too young for the role he played, but as the chief horror element he was not too shabby. One thing that did bother me was that nobody in the production seemed to know the subject matter. As playwright Kelly knew, one of the central figures of a voodoo cult was Baron Samedi. But the name is pronounced SOM-i-DEE or SOM-DEE. (It is the French word for "Saturday.") The cast insisted on pronouncing the name sa-MEE-dee, which is entirely wrong. THE ZOMBIE was a pleasant evening and Dam Site serves a good meal, but the story could have been better. Rate the play a 0 on the -4 to +4 scale. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ Date: Tue 3 Dec 85 12:41:58-CST From: Anthony Aristar Subject: Feminism & SF: Comments from a Non-American Mole It's been a fascinating exercise to read the postings on feminist science-fiction. This is not because I'm particularly interested in reading any of it, but because of the style of those postings. Of negative comments there were none... Of support there was much... I've come away from the discussion feeling that it is "simply not done", as the British would say, to mention anything which can be construed as anti-feminist in the good US of A. Now, this is an interesting situation in a group of SF readers, for one would predict that, of all people, such a group would be more aware than most of the rise and fall of ideologies--though earlier we used to call them religions--of which feminism is but one in a very long string, along with Mithraism, Manichaeism, the Albigensian Heresy, Christianity and Communism. I mean, hell, maybe life *isn't* fair, unpleasant thought as that may be. It doesn't seem at all unthinkable to me that men and women are inherently different, with different abilities, specialized by evolution, because it works better for the race that way. And I am *really* tired of reading SF and Fantasy where 5' 6" females with large chest and a low centre of gravity slaughter 7 foot tall Goliaths in hand to hand combat. Life isn't like that in the here and now, has never been so in the past, and logically isn't going to be so in the future unless we go in for genetic engineering on a large scale, not even in the neck of the woods that I was born in, Africa, where females, God knows, are not exactly wimps. Regards to all. ------------------------------ From: edison!dca@caip.rutgers.edu (David C. Albrecht) Subject: Re: Re: Feminism and Science Fiction (Podkayne of Mars) Date: 2 Dec 85 18:51:01 GMT >>An uncritical reader (such as most junior high and high school >>students) will likely not question what Heinlein says about >>women's roles. This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing. I don't >>want to see reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, >>I mean men, too) have fought to eliminate for so long. I >>graduated from high school in 1976, and the school system then was >>still steering girls away from math. What does Podkayne say? >>"-It doesn't look good for a girl to know math, so even if you do >>know math, don't let anyone know about it. Men are such fragile >>creatures that they won't be able to handle it.-" > > What are you going to do? Remove the book from the shelves? > Over my dead body! I agree!, fact is, the whole argument is stupid. Virtually all literature reflects to some degree the attitudes of the time, not just science fiction and not just a few authors. To restrict reading to books that reflect "proper" attitudes for today is censorship just as surely as books that others find morally offensive. Sad, for to do so is to produce a sterile environment when surrounded by riches. Rather, realize that fiction of twenty years ago is just as historical in nature as greek or victorian writings but simply less far removed. Myself, had I kids would certainly rather teach them to use their brains rather than feed them pablum, narrow vision, and have them sit on them. Teach your kids convictions through the strength of your own instead of trying to change the past to reflect the way you think it should have been. David Albrecht ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: Immortality Date: 2 Dec 85 13:52:14 GMT KFL@MIT-MC.ARPA writes: >So if no-one stops you doing it, it's obvious that the guy died >somewhere along the way, and your joke goes a little sour. > >He can't die. He's immortal. Okay, okay. So I messed up my definitions. You have naturally assumed I meant 'classic' immortality - i.e. cannot die, no matter what. My definition of immortal is a little more 'plausible' (please note the quotes) in that the guy will live forever "barring accidents". If you dropped a safe on him he'd still end up lightly killed (At least it's better than, er, - It's not better than anything at all, is it? Er, no.) Please assume this in any further ramblings I may put out. And what do you mean 'he might enjoy it'? :-) R. Ramsay ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Dec 85 0902-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #454 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 454 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Carver & Chalker & Dickson & Harrison & King & Kurtz & Wilhelm & Thieve's World & Footfall, Films - The Quiet Earth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ritcv!krf7527@caip.rutgers.edu (Keith Fieldhouse) Subject: Time Patrol Date: 5 Dec 85 00:33:12 GMT I'm looking for a list of Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories. The two that I've read (which are found in a mass market paperback book called, I believe, _Time Patrol(men?)_) seemed to indicate that more stories existed. Also I remember seeing a SF Book Club book that had other stories but I don't remember what they were. If anyone knows of others please let me know where I might find them. By the way, one of the stories in the above mentioned book, "The Sorrow of Odin the Goth" was very good and I recommend it. Thanks, Keith Fieldhouse ..rochester!ritcv!krf7527 ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: THE INFINITY LINK by Jeffrey A. Carver Date: 2 Dec 85 15:13:58 GMT The jacket reads: "THE INFINITY LINK is a compelling tale of scientific discovery as the men and women of a secret government project race to contact mysterious beings from the far reaches of space. It is a tense tale of political intrigue as rival powers fight to control the discovery. And it is the moving, compelling saga of a love that shattered time and space, of a young woman caught in a telepathic computer link with these ancient voyagers, whose stragne odyssey changes forever the future of Earth. Combining visionary scientific speculation with passionate human characters, THE INFINITY LINK confirms Jeffrey Carver as one of the most remarkable new science fiction talents of the decade." I'm not sure I would have purchased this book based on the cover. Sagas of love that shatter time and space don't interest me, but a friend loaned me the book and recommended it highly. I enjoyed the book very much and consider it one of the best I've read this year. I plan to get my own copy of the book to keep. There's a lot more going on than the cover indicates. The main thread has to do with a young college student, Mozy, who is participating part-time in a project having something to do with computers and transmitting thoughts across great distances (she really doesn't know much more about the project than this). Other plot lines include the project manager, who knows a lot more about the project but is still being kept in the dark regarding military aspects; a news reporter who gets a lead about this secret project and its possible implications; and scientists and engineers on a space satellite who want to find out more about the project they are helping and who want to make the information public. This is an excellent book about first contact with an alien culture. The characters are realistic, the technology is believable, and everything moves along at just the right pace. I give the book my highest rating, 4 stars. Duane Morse ...!noao!{terak|mot}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: loral!dml@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lewis) Subject: Re: Immortality vs. love, Dragonlord's reply thereto Date: 3 Dec 85 01:18:53 GMT > {Concerning the Well World Series} >P.S. Can anyone out there name, for twenty points, the ten longest >lived characters in the Well World Universe? Off the top of my head I can name the following characters with remarkably long life-spans. They are, in order of longevity (with allowances for my memory): 1. Nathan Brazil -- has outlived two incarnations of the universe. That has to qualify for masterclass Methuselah. 2. Sergei Ortega -- about a thousand years in Zone. He may FEEL older than Brazil. 3. Gilgram Zinder -- about 740 years 4. Mavra Chang -- about 725 years (up until the end of `Twilight at the Well of Souls') 5. Nikki Zinder -- about 715 years (depends on what you call living) 6. Obie -- about 705 years 7. Wu Julee/Kally Tonge -- 170-200 years 8. Vardia Diplo 1260/Nova -- also 170-200 years 9. Vardia Diplo 1260/Czillian -- not sure but a long time, as Czillians reproduce by fission and the resulting `offspring' are exact copies of the `parent'. This one could fit anywhere below Serge Ortega. 10. Diviner and the Rel, possibly? I seem to recall something about their species being naturally long-lived. Most of these times are based on a casual statement somewhere that Mavra and Obie spent about 700 years traveling between `Quest for the Well of Souls' and `The Return of Nathan Brazil'. Dave Lewis Loral Instrumentation San Diego sdcc6 ---\ gould9 --\ ihnp4 ---->-->!sdcc3 ---->--->!loral!dml (uucp) sdcrdcf -/ sdcsvax -/ ------------------------------ From: watmath!jagardner@caip.rutgers.edu (Jim Gardner) Subject: The Final Encyclopaedia by Gordon R.Dickson Date: 4 Dec 85 22:52:46 GMT Quickie non-spoiler review (because someone asked): The book picks up about 100 years after most of the Dorsai books (e.g. Soldier Ask Not, Lost Dorsai). The hero is Hal Mayne, raised on earth by a Dorsai, a Friendly, and an Exotic. That in itself should tell you what the theme of the novel is: Hal's mission is to unify the splinter cultures. (Digression: for those who have not read any of the Dorsai novels. In this universe, there are about a dozen populated planets, no known non-human sentients. The planets have specialized in areas of expertise: Dorsai produces the best mercenaries in human history; the Friendly worlds produce fanatically religious cannon fodder (and statisticians); the Exotic worlds produce psychologists and "psycho-historians". Earth is the last refuge of generalists. To further its goals, Earth has produced "The Final Encyclopaedia", an orbital repository of all human knowledge, possibly capable of putting it all together to come to surprising truths.) Previous Dickson novels have concentrated on the Dorsai and the Exotics. In this book, the hero spends a great deal of time with the Friendlies. The Friendlies have always been the least appealing of the splinter cultures because of their unyielding fanatic faith. However, Dickson does a decent job of showing their noble side and their essentialness to the human race. The book is probably too long and telegraphs a few things that are supposed to be big revelations in the last few chapters. It is almost certain that there will be one more book to follow this one (isn't that always the way?) but it really feels as if one more book will finish things off. Before that book is written, however, I suspect that we will see other books that take place a good deal earlier. The Childe Cycle (which is what the series is officially called) clearly began from events that took place around 1300 A.D. and I have heard rumours that Dickson will be writing those books next. This makes sense -- there really is only one more book that can take place in the time of the Dorsai, and Dickson will want to cover all the bases in the past before he writes the big she-bang ending in the future. Jim Gardner, University of Waterloo ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN by Harry Harrison Date: 2 Dec 85 15:29:15 GMT The jacket reads: "In the auspicious annals of crime, chicanery and counterespionage, one name towers above all the rest -- "Slippery Jim" diGriz, the fabled outlaw known and feared as The Stainless Steel Rat! Now, the canny, untold origins of the 25th century's most canny criminal can at last be revealed: A Stainless Steel Rat is Born. This final volume in the saga of James diGriz explores his humble beginnings as a petty criminal on the backward planet of Bit O'Heaven, and his rapid rise to the most wanted man on a dozen worlds. And it contains the never-before-told story of the fabled archcriminal known as The Bishop, who tutored young Jim in the higher arts of crime and gave him his legendary nickname. A rousing, rollicking, often touching tale, A STAINLESS STEEL RAT IS BORN is a stirring portrait of a man who learned to laugh at the laws that bind ordinary men." If you're not interested in reading how Slippery Jim got into crime as a toddler, don't worry: the story starts out on Jim's 18th birthday, and he's already up to robbing banks. Jim tells the story himself, and he does divulge a few anecdotes about his earlier activites. But he concentrates on explaining how he met The Bishop and managed to leave Bit O'Heaven. This story doesn't have the level of technological sophistication that the others do, but this is in keeping with the theme of Jim getting started in serious crime (and on a somewhat backward planet). Like other Stainless Steel Rat novels, this one moves swiftly. It makes for a nice hour or two diversion. I give it 2.5 stars (good). Duane Morse ...!noao!{terak|mot}!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ Date: Thu 5 Dec 85 13:18:29-PST From: SHELEG@SRI-AI.ARPA Subject: RE: King/Bachman/Thinner Now that I've read the Bachman books, it occurs to me my previous review left a good deal to be desired. However, I won't belabor the point. I will, however, add that when I said Thinner was "typical King (er...um I mean Bachman)" Thinner was the only Bachman work I'd read. Thinner WAS typical King (a story that didn't work, overly wordy, supernatural horror, with a few very nice spots), but not necessarily typical Bachman. I can't see how anyone could read Thinner and not know for a fact that it was written by King. Personally, my feeling is that Bachman didn't have a sudden death when a paper published the story. Rather he commited suicide. Thinner's cover might as well have read: I AM STEVEN KING That can't be said of all of the other Bachman books I am Bob Sheleg ------------------------------ From: aicchi!prs@caip.rutgers.edu (Schmidt) Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz Date: 5 Dec 85 05:30:47 GMT >From: devi%maisha.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Gita L. Devi PKO1/D1) >Randall Neff stated that he recently talked with Katherine Kurtz >and she said that the third book of the "Bishop's Heir" trilogy has >gone to del Rey. What has happened to the second book? When is >this due out? Or is it already out somewhere? I recently saw and ad for it (I think it was in Asimov's). It is called "The King's Justice" Paul R. Schmidt ...!ihnp4!aicchi!prs ------------------------------ From: mmintl!franka@caip.rutgers.edu (Frank Adams) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 3 Dec 85 16:07:18 GMT rhw9906@wucec2.UUCP (Richard Hill Wyatt Jr) writes: > On the subject of cloning societys, anybody ever read "Where Late >the Sweet Birds Sang" by Kate Wilheim(?)? It was a VERY good >treatment of a society set up by cloning, and included the loss of >originality/creativity in the clones. Pardon me, but I thought "Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang" was perfectly awful. A micro plot summary: first half: clones are superior; second half: clones are inferior. The clones failed in the second half in the same way they triumphed in the first. Either half alone was plausible; the combination was not. Frank Adams ihpn4!philabs!pwa-b!mmintl!franka Multimate International 52 Oakland Ave North E. Hartford, CT 06108 ------------------------------ From: udenva!showard@caip.rutgers.edu (showard) Subject: Re: Thieves' World: bah! Date: 3 Dec 85 18:51:20 GMT chabot@miles.DEC (L.S. Chabot) writes: >YUCK. I've bought every one so far, and this is absolutely the >last. From now on, if any more come out, I'll have this blind >spot. I'm sure that some will call me "Fool!", because they don't >read this kind of stuff anyway; and I'm sure that there are still >the Faithful. If there are still Faithful reading my posting who >haven't bought it yet, I say, "Be warned!" > >I've had trouble in the past with, oh, say, sustaining interest in >#2, or with an occasional story in a volume (hey, I never expected >perfection), but never have I before experienced such boredom with >a whole volume. Well, the cover has lots of pretty colors, and >metallic lettering. Practically no eyes at all, though, let alone >people without eyelids (it's just not the same without those folks >without eyelids :-) ). It's snowing here, and this ought to make >pretty flames. Actually, the books took a sharp downward turn with the Beysib invasion. Up to that point, each book had a new writer or two and the tie-ins between stories were fairly minor (sort of like cameo appearances). Since the invasion, however, there seems to be a greater plot line which all the writers must follow. Anyway, I stopped with the last one, which seemed to take forever to read. I also had to keep referring back to previous volumes to find out who these characters were and what they were talking about. The first book is still the best. Have you seen that there is a similar series planned to deal with wizards? That sounds like it would be a lot harder, unless the editor(s) established an overall scheme of How Magic Works and a code for How Much You Can Tell The Reader About How Magic Works. Steve Howard, ...udenva!showard ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev) Subject: Re: "Footfall" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle Date: 2 Dec 85 23:00:40 GMT I did not find sex in "Footfall" either gratuitous or unnesessary, it just was THERE! The sex scenes were suggested more than actually graphicly depicted. Survivalist group was not absolutely necessary, but did provide a view of what the populos was doing without corroding the book without the lengthy actionless narratives. Hi tech? what hi tech??? As for coincedences - they DO happen.... Yes, this book is not up to the standards set by the earlier Niven-Pournelle colaborrations. But it was entertaining, well thought out technically, well paced and a rather pleasant read. On the scale of -4 to 4 I'd give it 1. That is, do not buy hard-cover, buy the paper-back. Don't expect a masterpiece.... Oleg Kiselev. ...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 3 Dec 85 05:45:00 GMT Sorry, but I happen to agree with stever@cit-vax.ARPA; The Quiet Earth is an excellent film. And most especially, a breath of fresh air for a Science Fiction film--no ILM mega-effects, no aliens, no galactic empires, just a good, solid story, well presented. The story builds quite nicely, catches you up in it. Characters actually have a chance to be people instead of just cartoon caricatures. As far as the "science" in it is concerned, I didn't have a problem with it--science isn't my main concern in speculative fiction, the storyline and characters are, just as they are in any genre. I thought the acting was great, the direction was great, the cinematography was great, and the sound track was great. I liked it enough to go see it again, and liked it just as much the second time around (except for the Friday night crowd that didn't understand how to watch a nice, quiet film-- the first time I saw it was on a Monday afternoon, and the audience then was much more sophisticated). Anyway, I highly recommend seeing the film, but don't go expecting to see the "traditional" Hollywood "SciFi" type film (the film was made in New Zealand)--go expecting to see a good film. It will touch you. Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. ima!ism780!dianeh ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Dec 85 0947-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #455 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 455 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Bradbury & Card & Dick (2 msgs) & Heinlein (3 msgs) & Mono Sex Societies (2 msgs) & Book Request, Radio - X Minus One, Television - Star Trek & The New Twilight Zone (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Reviews and Criticism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (William Swan) Subject: Re: Obscure books (Chthon) Date: 6 Dec 85 19:57:52 GMT ivanlan@ccvaxa.UUCP writes: >anthony's first or second novel was called 'chthon.' it was about >*someone* kidnapped from earth.... Whoa! If this is "Chthon" of Hvee, the minionettes, chimera, and the god of the underworld (caverns), you've got the wrong description! If this is another "Chthon", could you tell me about it? William Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 6 Dec 85 16:27:00 GMT The time travel story is "A Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury. It can be found in the GOLDEN APPLES OF THE SUN anthology, among other places. I think it was one of Bradbury's better short stories, one where he restrained himself from crossing the line between sentiment and sentimentality. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: ihu1e!welsch@caip.rutgers.edu (l.a. welsch) Subject: Enders Game - The Story ** Comment and Spoiler ** Date: 7 Dec 85 16:45:32 GMT I first read Enders Game so long ago I cannot remember if it was 10 or 15 years ago. The story was one of O. S. Card's first and to this day I find one of the most readable stories in science fiction. It has appeared in at least two anthologies. BTW the the story first appeared in Analog. I look forward to reading the book. Spoiler -- Spoiler -- Spoiler I have read a couple of articles implying the premise of the story is one of war games simulation. I distinctly remember an entirely different and much more scary premise, that was the training of the young, starting at kindergarden, for war. In synopsis, earth was at war with another planet and earth had a fleet that was traveling to that planet. The fleet was unmanned, but, could be controlled from earth in real time. Earth, needed trained pilots and a military genius when the fleet arrived. Ender is the genius, and the story is the story of how he is trained to do battle in three dimensions and to win. Never in the story is Ender told that he is being trained to KILL a species and DESTROY an entire planetary system. The distinction of when the training stops and the real fighting begins is never made to Ender. Only in the end, when the enemy is destroyed does Ender realize that it is more than a game. To me the story asks was it worth it to take a person who is a genius and so limit her/his life that what is left is a tool for destruction. As far as the premise being old or tired, I did not find this to be the case when I first read the story, and never on rereading. Larry Welsch ihu1e!welsch ------------------------------ Subject: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick Date: 04 Dec 85 01:21:59 EST (Wed) From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU Someone asked about The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, by Philip K. Dick. As a big PKD fan, I am embarrassed to say that I haven't read it. I do know that it involves a drug-induced "subjective world". It is probably not a bad Dick book to start with if you're interested in him. Don't read or not read it because you've heard it's an "LSD book". Someone else should be able to say more. I'm mostly trying to stimulate some comments about PKD. Frank Hollander ------------------------------ From: bunny!ehn0@caip.rutgers.edu (Eric Nyberg) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick (really PKD) Date: 5 Dec 85 12:32:38 GMT Several people (including Ellison, I think) have claimed that PKD wrote "Stigmata" whilst tripping. Inside sources have disclaimed this. It's not really an "LSD book." The drug Chew-Z is the instrument by which Palmer Eldritch asserts almost god-like power over all who take it (somewhat akin to the Gnostic demi-urge). I would say that this is one of my favorite PKD books; there is a lot to think about here - I've read the book about 3 times and there is still more to fathom! It's not a bad PKD novel to start with, but I would also recommend "Man in the High Castle," "Martian Time Slip," or "UBIK" as good places to start. "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" is also pretty good. I have been moderating a PKD mailing list (with widely fluctuating levels of activity) since this summer. If anyone is interested, send me a request and I can send the back issues. I'm also interested in discussing the theological aspects of Dick's works, especially his use of the Gnostic pantheon. If you're interested, try Dick's non-scientifiction. "The Man Whose Teeth Were All Alike" is better than "In Milton Lumky Territory," but the best is really "Confessions of a Crap Artist," which is unfortunately difficult to find. If anyone has read PKD (old, new, shorts) recently and would like to compose his/her ideas into a review/essay for the mailing, feel free... CSNET: ehn0@gte-labs Eric H. Nyberg, 3rd UUCP: ..harvard!bunny!ehn0 GTE Laboratories, Dept. 317 40 Sylvan Rd. Waltham, MA 02254 (617) 466-2518 ------------------------------ Subject: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick Date: 04 Dec 85 01:21:59 EST (Wed) From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU Someone said that in Expanded Universe, Heinlein advanced the idea that there be a society where only women vote. This misses his point completely. The idea was that only *mothers* vote. This was in an essay where Heinlein defended criticism about Starship Troopers. In ST, only veterans [of civil service] are allowed to vote. The idea behind this is that only people who have served their country have an interest in it, thus only they should be given the franchise. A mother, on the other hand, has demonstrated an interest in the future of mankind, therefore only mothers should be allowed to vote (in his hypothetical country). Heinlein places a big emphasis on *breeding*. In general, the non-fiction in Expanded Universe is very good. Frank Hollander ------------------------------ From: kcl-cs!ramsay@caip.rutgers.edu (ZNAC440) Subject: Re: JOB - Another Mini Review from a UK viewpoint Date: 4 Dec 85 22:29:53 GMT pete@stc.UUCP writes: > Very readable, quite entertaining. I haven't read much > RAH recently; this was better than I was lead to expect. As the Cybermen would say, excellent. I gave RAH one more chance to write a decent non-juvenile book (i.e. one that wasn't self-satisfied, largely pointless, womb-fixated or any of the other things I've hated his work for since after Glory Road (the last one I really enjoyed)) He finally did it. Even I say unto you, RAH RAH RAH. > One alternate universe is much like another. Shouldn't Alec have > noticed environmental differences? (More/less atmospheric > pollution, etc.) I think the similarity of the universes picked was intentional. Besides, would Alex have known what pollution was unless he came upon somewhere really rancid? > Born-again Christianity isn't such a big deal here - this > makes the discussions in the first half pretty boring. Oh, I don't know. I allowed RAH these little foibles. Besides, one of the important things was how Alex felt about Christianity. And they didn't go on half as long as Heinlein's discussions normally do. (Remember LL in TEFL when he's waffling on about genetics with regard to the baby. Yaaaawwwwwwn. > Heaven/Hell sequence is good fun. For the first time (several times) RAH made me laugh out loud. It's good to see the senility isn't complete yet :-) ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick Date: 5 Dec 85 17:13:04 GMT >From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU > Someone said that in Expanded Universe, Heinlein advanced the > idea... That was me, and I may have slightly misquoted, but I don't really think I missed the point (actually, Heinlein *does* suggest only women voting somewhere else, without the "mothers" restriction.) At least, I remember both the idea and the reasoning quite clearly, and had it in mind when I wrote the article. In fact, splitting hairs, I could even argue that RAH *meant* women, since his rationale specifically claims women who have not borne children as effectively (economically/socially) male. However, on reflection, you are probably right -- RAH would probably approve of letting any men who have become mothers vote. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: apollo!christensen@caip.rutgers.edu (Wendy Christensen) Subject: mono sex societies Date: 6 Dec 85 21:42:13 GMT For an interesting slant on this subject, read "The Disappearance." I don't remember the author's name. It was written about 1950 and is considered a minor classic. ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adjb@caip.rutgers.edu (Daniel Jay Barrett) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 9 Dec 85 00:10:30 GMT The author is Phillip Wylie, and is indeed an excellent read. See also Wylie's _Gladiator_ (not for mono-sex-societies, but also excellent). Daniel J. Barrett Dept. of Electrical Engineering & Computer Science Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, MD 21218 ------------------------------ From: orstcs!richardt@caip.rutgers.edu (richardt) Subject: Book Search Request Date: 26 Nov 85 10:19:00 GMT I would like to procure a copy of a space opera which I read many years ago (1980), which was out of print even then. The title of this rather small paperback was "For Texas and For Zed." Although the storyline is no great shakes, the gadgetry is somewhat interesting. If anyone has any info on this book, please mail me. Stepping Off the Soapbox: {hp-pcd | tektronix} !orstcs!richardt Richard Threadgill 1230 NW 23rd #7 Corvallis Or ------------------------------ From: sphinx.UChicago!tra4@caip.rutgers.edu (Jonathan Henry Traum) Subject: Re: SF Radio & Battlefield Earth Date: 5 Dec 85 05:42:53 GMT Have you ever heard of "X Minus One"? It is an old SF radio show (40's, I think) which had both original stories and adaptations of the classics of SF. I have heard it from time to time on National Public Radio, although I don't know if they still play it. Jonathan Traum ------------------------------ Subject: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick Date: 04 Dec 85 01:21:59 EST (Wed) From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU The Star Trek videocassettes have been released in the order in which they were aired. However, the numbering is based on the order in which they were produced (and aired in syndication). Now, a total of 30 have been released, including all from the first season as well as the first two from the second season ("Who Mourns..." and "Amok Time"). What's interesting about this is that the numbering starts with #2 ("The Corbomite Manuever") - an indication that Paramount intends to release "The Cage" (the first pilot, not aired - the first episode). I suspect that they are looking for a copy of it. I have seen a black&white copy that Gene Roddenberry travels with. A color version may not exist. Regardless, the market for "The Cage" is large. Question? Did ABC show extra scenes from Star Trek II when they aired it? If so, what were they? Frank Hollander ------------------------------ Date: Sat 7 Dec 85 00:47:29-EST From: Chris.Durham Subject: twilight zone Tonight's Zone was enjoyable, although highly predictable. IN "The Beacon" , we knew that the doctor would be the one to go when the mother wouldn't let him treat the sick daughter. However, I thought that this particular one did one of the best jobs I've seen so far in bringing back the spirit of the original series. Although it was predictable, it was far from boring or downright stupid, as so many of the new episodes have been. I liked Harlan's episode too,however, it was just a twist on a familiar tail. Someone goes back into the past and meets himself/herself, and changes his/her own life by the meeting . See The Time Travelers Series and the Trek animated episode Yesteryear, for other stories like this. However, Harlan goes a good way in making the story interesting. He wants to make us understand Gus' feelings and he does a good job. However, these episodes, as I said above, are very predictable. I wish there were more unpredictable ones. Responses welcome, Chris Durham, CD0V%CMCCTE@TE.CC.CMU.EDU CD0V%CMCCTE@Carnegie.Mailnet CD0V%CMCCTE@CU20B.Columbia.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Dec 85 20:30 PST From: Michael Wahrman Subject: Harlan Ellison Leaves T.Z. Daily Variety, Dec. 3, 1985 HARLAN ELLISON ANGLES 'THE TWILIGHT ZONE' Writer Harlan Ellison has ankled CBS' "The Twilight Zone," where he had served as a creative consultant since last November. Ellison reportedly left the show as a result of a disagreement with network program practices over a segment he had written for the skein and was to have directed. Show's producers could not be reached for comment. [For "Program practices" substitute "censor". -- MW] ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Query about reviews/criticism Date: 4 Dec 85 22:44:00 GMT I ran up against a couple of quotes in Damon Knight's IN SEARCH OF WONDER that I wanted to bounce off the net readership. The book is about twenty years old (1967) and is a collection of critical essays on science fiction. Both quotes are extracted from the introduction by Anthony Boucher. Contrasting reviewing and criticism, "Reviewing is the lesser art, with a more immediate functional purpose. The reviewer's objective is to express his reactions to a work in such a way that the readers of a given periodical will know whether or not they want to read it. The critic attempts to measure the work by more lasting and more nearly absolute standards, to determine its place, not for the reader of the moment, but for the cultivated mind viewing the entire art of which this work forms a segment." On critics and writers, "The question of whether a arbiter should also be a creator is, as I've written elsewhere, a tough one. Either way, the victim of an unfavorable review can make what seems a legitimate complaint. If the reviewer is not a writer, what does he know about the field? He:s probably sured and frustrated because he can't sell, and takes out his spite on those who do. If he is a writer, he's jealous of competition, he can understand only his own kind of story, and who's he to talk anyway -- look at his own stuff!" In view of net traffic on reviews, critiques, opinions, or however these quotes strike you, any thoughts or comments? Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 9 Dec 85 0957-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #456 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 9 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 456 Today's Topics: Miscellaneous - Human Reaction to Vacuum (12 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rayssd!gmp@caip.rutgers.edu (Gregory M. Paris) Subject: human reaction to vacuum Date: 1 Dec 85 23:52:43 GMT > From: cipher@mmm.UUCP (Andre Guirard) > Time Lords and even mere human beings do NOT explode when exposed > to vacuum, as you all seem to suppose they should. It is very > uncomfortable, however, and it is not possible (or at least not > safe to try) to hold your breath. A greater danger is the > temperature. I've had a long standing disagreement with several people about this issue, that is, whether or not people "explode" when exposed to vacuum. I've read books and seen movies where they do and also where they don't. I personally don't believe that people explode in a vacuum, though I have no evidence to support my belief. Does anyone have any proof for or against? Greg Paris {allegra,linus,raybed2,ccice5,brunix}!rayssd!gmp ------------------------------ From: uwmacc!demillo@caip.rutgers.edu (Rob DeMillo) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 2 Dec 85 18:38:24 GMT Not proof, per se. However, this issue has come up before in discussions about 2001. (The sequence where Dave gets spit - ptwoo! - from a space pod to the Discovery across an atmosphereless corridor.) Arthur Clarke maintains that the army had performed experiments in the early 60's involving dogs and vacuum chambers. It sounded disgusting, but the dogs did not explode. (Again, Clarke is the only source I have for this.) If a creature with large lung capacity had a lungfull of air, I would think he/she/it would pop like a bad dream. If not? I dunno. There is a lot of gas in the human body (mostly tied up in the bloodstream) that I would imagine would want to get out. You may not pop, but I would guess that you would (at least!) wind up with a severe case of the bends, and a few ruptured organs. Rob DeMillo Madison Academic Computer Center ...seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!demillo ------------------------------ From: spar!freeman@caip.rutgers.edu (Jay Freeman) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 2 Dec 85 23:01:59 GMT The matter is closed. Human beings do not explode when exposed to vacuum. We have learned it the hard way. The Soviets lost three cosmonauts in the early 1970s, when a Soyuz (I think it was) decompressed on undocking from a space station. The spacecraft reentered successfully (either on autopilot or under ground control). The cosmonauts were very dead, but suffered no large-scale damage or disfiguring. They looked as if they had fallen asleep. There was a good deal of American concern about this incident, and the Soviets were scrupulous about describing it in detail; because the time was just before the joint US-USSR space flight, the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project. In that flight, an Apollo docked with a Soyuz for several days. NASA was of course concerned about the safety of the Soviet vehicle. The Soviets wanted the flight to happen, so they were very open and aboveboard about the decompression incident. I don't recall what cabin pressure the Soyuz used. It could hardly have been less than 3 psi (if pure oxygen) and hardly more than 15 psi (sea-level atmosphere). I doubt even the full factor-of-five difference would change "no visible damage" into "POP!". Jay Reynolds Freeman (Schlumberger Palo Alto Research) ------------------------------ From: ukc!scifi@caip.rutgers.edu (I.L.Sewell) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 3 Dec 85 12:58:32 GMT Personally I too think that people explode in space but the short story I've just read (out of ADV 2 ) disagrees and reanimates them. So on a quick bit of thinking we have that pressure * volume / Temp. must be constant. This is one of the basic laws of thermodynamics. A quick look in a few books and general discussion gives us a temp. of 3K and pressure of about 10E-13Pa. Thus going from room temp and pressue to space will result in one meter cube of gas going to 1E11 meters cube!!! Taking into account alitle energy for liquid vapourisation I reccon that still any body in space will have the liquid in their body boil-vaporize and resulting in just about every cell in the body rupturing. i.e.BANG! Well this is what I think and calculate , any other ideas ? IAN SEWELL ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_adis@caip.rutgers.edu (David I Shapiro) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 4 Dec 85 17:37:44 GMT > Does anyone have any proof for or against? Yes I do. The human body is pressurized by the Earth's atmosphere, which is approximately 14.3 PSI (Pounds per square inch). Space, in particular a vaccum, has no pressure, therefore the human body would explode, perhaps not spectacularly, but the lack of pressure on the body would try to create an equalization of some sort. ------------------------------ From: ukc!scifi@caip.rutgers.edu (I.L.Sewell) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 4 Dec 85 14:16:57 GMT Jay Reynolds Freman writes about the Soyuz acident in reference to the body in space argument. As much as it pains me to say this on the net YOU ARE WRONG! The soyuz space craft did not decompress on leaving the space station it started to decompress as it re-entered the atmosphere due to a faulty valve. This valve should have been closed automatically ( I do not know what perpose the valve had ) but did not and one of the cosmonauts died whilst trying to shut the valve off manually. It was later found that the time taken to close the valve manually would have been longer than the time of reentry. Back to the point now. The reason that the cosmonauts died was from asphyxiation due to the ships air being removed via this valve. Thus they fell asleep and died with no visible marks on them (this is standard in asphyxiation cases). This is totally different from the cases we are thinking of in which the body is subjected to low temp and pressure as in outer space. The pressure and temp in the craft was nearly normal it was just the lack of air that was the killer (the fact that the Russians use an air mixture while USA uses oxygen may also play a part I don't know) and maybe the build up of CO2. I now refer you to my earlier article on the proper reaction of the body to outer space and a book whose author I can't remember about the Russian space program called 'Red Star In Space' IAN SEWELL ------------------------------ From: ecrcvax!snoopy@caip.rutgers.edu (Sebastian Schmitz) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 4 Dec 85 13:38:34 GMT I have no proof, but I have a fairly old book (at least I bought it long ago), called "The Making of 2001". In there, there is an explanation of the fact that Bowman can get back into the Discovery without his helmet. People can survive for a short time in a vacuum. After all skin is a fairly tight sealing enclosure. I would reckon that the time would be roughly a minute and is fairly independent of how long you can hold your breath. Supposedly your blood will start frothing in a vacuum because the nitrogen dissolved in your blood will be "boiled off". This is similar I presume to cats or Gremlins in microwave ovens: they do explode but only after a while. (N.B. I love animals and have NOT tried this, but I have read small items in newspapers about such things; I have also seen Gremlins; I don't know if Steven Spielberg tried it) So the answer to your question is "Yes, but only for a short time". Mind you, if you put your mind to it, you can do a lot in a minute (like opening an emergency airlock I presume). Also your instinct for self preservation will tend to make you think better and work better in such situations apart from giving you lots of strength. One would hope that the vacuum shock would trigger something that would make you more resilient (like some chemical adjustment in your bloodstream). The matter of fact is, that very few people actually realise HOW fast blood flows. Some time ago I had a radioactive checkup done and they injected some stuff into my arm (elbow) and the scanners under my kidneys reacted less than 5 seconds later. In other words in an emergency situation (with high pulse) I reckon your blood's composition could be changed very swiftly (less than about ten seconds) THROUGOUT the whole body. A real Adrenaline shove would make you GO places... So living in a vacuum is possible, but there is also cosmic radiation: very dangerous. I don't know whether this would not get you first. Bear in mind that Bowman was in vacuum allright but was never in open space, He had his pod doors open and then went straight into the airlock tunnel. No air but also no radiation (or at least being shielded a lot). I am not really willing to try something like this out. The problem is similar to those chemistry text books, which claim that "Cyanide tastes like almonds". I guess that was the last thing the tester said. Sorry for the length and diversions. Love, Sebastian \!mcvax\!unido\!ecrcvax\!snoopy / ------------------------------ From: ssc-vax!wanttaja@caip.rutgers.edu (Ronald J Wanttaja) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum (pop goes the weasel) Date: 3 Dec 85 17:53:11 GMT Back when _2001_ was first released, the (written) program that accompanied the film included a short article by Clarke on this very subject. He said tests with primates have shown that the victim has about 30 seconds of useful conciousness... and no mention was made of explosions. Clarke has used the "unprotected human in vacuum" in several stories. After all, why should the body explode? It's only 14psi difference. The shuttle space suits operate at 5 psi. The Air Force routinely gives "explosive decompression" tests to pilots in altitude chambers. In these, the pressure is changed from sea level to 50,000 feet in less than a second. I've watched pilots undergo it; it looked uncomfortable, but they do it all the time. The temperature makes little difference in the short term... as space has no temperature. You are in a Thermos. You should retain heat fairly well, depending upon exposed skin and other radiative areas. Ron Wanttaja (ssc-vax!wanttaja) ------------------------------ From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 4 Dec 85 16:27:00 GMT Bodies do not explode in vacuum, even with explosive decompression, as far as I know with my limited knowledge. However, there are severe dangerous problems with vacuum. The worst is the fluid (i.e. tears) would freeze and possibly damage your eyes. Your blood would literally begin to boil because of the vacuum. This is definitely not good f or you. For more references, read "A Breath of Vacuum" by Arthur C. Clarke. Apparently the HUMan Body is a lot tougher than we think. Personally, I think one could hold out in a vacuum for perhaps 20-30 seconds. Think about 2001 and the scene where Bowman reenters the airlock w/o a helmet. ------------------------------ From: ttidcc!hollombe@caip.rutgers.edu (The Polymath) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 4 Dec 85 21:23:55 GMT In the 50's, when airplanes were just starting to go high enough with pressurised cabins for this to matter, the military did some interesting experiments with this concept. I remember seeing documentary films of them and they went something like this: A volunteer would sit in a sealed room at standard atmospheric pressure (about 15 psi). Attached to the volunteer's chamber, separated from it by a sealed aperture, was a vacuum chamber from which as much air as possible was evacuated. The experiment consisted of shattering the seal between the two chambers and observing the volunteer. Typical pressure differentials were 50% in under 1 second. Although none of the volunteers exploded, or died as far as I know, I remember seeing at least one man swell up alarmingly during one of the more violent trials. I assume they worked up to this level from milder trials to avoid killing anyone outright. What I conclude from this is that results depend on speed and amount of decompression. If you go from 15 psi to zero in under a second, you're likely to pop your skin, at least, and probably rupture lots of other things. On the other hand, if your breathing pure oxygen at 3 psi and suddenly go to zero you'll probably only notice minor discomfort (even suffocating won't bother you much as there'll be no CO2 buildup in your system). Jerry Hollombe Citicorp(+)TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {philabs,randvax,trwrb,vortex}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 5 Dec 85 20:21:22 GMT The thing about thermo is that it says nothing about rates. The word BANG has nothing to do with anything *but* rates :-). Your numbers sound correct, but all in all human skin is pretty tough stuff. The internal pressures are fairly high, but they are very evenly distributed, not counting the pressure from the lungs. The body would be subject to the bends, but even that is rate-dependent, i.e. the severity of the case depends on how long the pressure differential exists. This discussion brings up a story I once read, on what might be considered the opposite problem. Hilbert Schenk (assuredly mispelled) published a story titled _Bouyant _Ascent for Fantasy and Science Fiction. *SPOILER WARNING* The crew members were ejected through the torpedo tubes and rose to the surface very quickly in very bouyant suits. To keep from being crushed by the water pressure the people were forced to scream during ascent. They were then picked up at the surface and rushed into decompression chambers. It is a very good story, and I believe that the act of screaming would be useful for the problem of rapid decompression. The lungs would almost have to be emptied of air when hitting the vacuum, and a scream is most effective at doing this. Of course, by the end of the scream there would be lung damage from exposure to vacuum, so the person would have to stop before totally running out of air. The main problem is that once a person starts screaming, they seldom know when to stop :-). ------------------------------ From: slu70!guy@caip.rutgers.edu (Guy M. Smith) Subject: Re: human reaction to vacuum Date: 6 Dec 85 18:36:36 GMT > So on a quick bit of thinking we have that pressure * volume / > Temp. must be constant. This is one of the basic laws of > thermodynamics. > A quick look in a few books and general discussion gives us a > temp. of 3K and pressure of about 10E-13Pa. Thus going from room > temp and pressue to space will result in one meter cube of gas > going to 1E11 meters cube!!! > Taking into account alitle energy for liquid vapourisation I > reccon that still any body in space will have the liquid in their > body boil-vaporize and resulting in just about every cell in the > body rupturing. i.e.BANG! > Well this is what I think and calculate , any other ideas ? Don't forget that the term thermodynamics is actually a misnomer, it only deals with systems in equilibrium, i.e. static. Extension of thermodynamics to dynamic systems in any fundamental way is extremely difficult (see any work on irreversible thermodynamics). The issue here is not what the eventual outcome will be, that's clearly a dessicated hulk, slightly dead. The rate at which the process occurrs is what needs to be determined and that does not lend itself to simple calculation. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Dec 85 0848-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #457 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 457 Today's Topics: Books - Anderson & Asimov (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Pangalactic Gargle Blasters (2 msgs) & World Design & First Annual "Tucker" Awards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Time Patrol Date: 8 Dec 85 15:19:15 GMT krf7527@ritcv.UUCP writes: >I'm looking for a list of Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories. In 1964 I bought a British paperback edition `Guardians of Time' published by Pan. It contained the following stories and attributions: Time Patrol - May 1955 } Delenda Est - December 1955 } All from Brave to be a King - August 1959 } F & SF The Only Game in Town - January 1960 } It's quite likely that Poul Anderson wrote more. Can anyone supply a longer list? BTW, SilverBob's `Up the Line' is a ribaldly funny view of a Time Patrol from the criminal's POV. Peter Kendell ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!pete ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Review: ROBOTS AND EMPIRE Date: 4 Dec 85 22:48:00 GMT ROBOTS AND EMPIRE by Isaac Asimov Doubleday Books (also SF Bookclub) A book review by Jim Brunet Not having had my complete fill of turkey over Thanksgiving weekend, I picked up my so-far neglected copy of ROBOTS AND EMPIRE. By the time I finished, I was mildly surprised; R&E is a much better book than either FOUNDATIONS EDGE or ROBOTS OF DAWN. Unfortunately, this still doesn't necessarily make it a very good book, and while R&E has its redeeming moments, it remains seriously flawed. A general problem with multi-volume series is that each volume has to introduce the background fresh from the beginning so the book can work as a stand-alone piece for readers for whom this is their first book. Needless to say, this creates a swamp that readers of the series have to wade through with each new book, which is one reason that the second or later volumes of many series aren't as successful as the first -- the material is no longer fresh, yet it's embedded in the pages like a layer of cold oatmeal. A related problem is the necessity of making references to events and persons of previous volumes so the current work will make sense. Asimov has both problems in R&E, the latter compounded by the fact that since he is writing a middle book in the series, he must have hooks and links forward as well as back. The first immediate symptom of this is the incredible talkiness of the book, particularly at the beginning and the end. The technique is called exposition-in-dialog, the classic bad example in SF being when the hero explains to the scientist's beautiful-but-dumb daughter why the oxygen will run out in three hours or the sun will nova unless they fix the gamma prestagobulator or some such. In R&E, such dialog takes place to explain about Gladia's relationship to Elijah Baley, the problems the robots Giskard and Daneel have mediating possible courses of action under the constraints of the Three Laws of Robotics, and basically re-capping the significant events of ROBOTS OF DAWN. Booorrrrrr-ing! At these moments, the characters cease to be characters. Rather, they become loudspeakers through which the author unsubtly conveys what we need to know; the characters exist for us, rather than for themselves. When the characters cease to be Asimov's contrivances, however, they rise a considerable bit above the level of FE and ROD, though not quite up to CAVES OF STEEL, FOUNDATION TRILOGY, or THE GODS THEMSELVES. Giskard and Daneel are quite clearly differentiated as two different personalities and work well as robot characters. Gladia makes her best appearance in three books. However, Kelden Amadiro, the villain of ROD; Dr. Mandamus, his new accomplice; and Deejee Baley, great-great-great grandson of Elijah, are rendered in a crude brushstroke-on-cardboard manner. (Deejee stands for the initials D.G. -- yes, his full name is Daneel Giskard Baley.) **WARNING: PLOT SPOILERS OF INCREASING DEGREE BEGIN AT THIS POINT** Yet if characterization is not Asimov's strong suit (as he made clear in an essay titled "The Tin God of Characterization" published earlier this year in ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE), his plot and ideas don't fare much better. The basics are that Earth and its colony Settler worlds are busily expanding through the local interstellar neck of the woods. Aurora and the other Spacer worlds feel threatened by the fact that short-lived, brutish Earthlings and their kin are going to overrun the galaxy as the long-lived Spacer worlds fail to muster the intellectual and physical vigor necessary to match the expansion. Kelden Amadiro, the chief roboticist for Aurora, is determined to destroy Earth -- in his opinion, the Settler worlds will wither and die without the backing of the homeplanet. Enter Dr. Mandamus, who offers Amadiro a plan that can succeed in exchange for promises of political preferment. In the meantime, the Spacer planet Solaria (Gladia's birthplace) has been abandoned by its inhabitants. The Settler Trader's think hungrily of all the thousands of robots running around without masters; what a bundle could be made by selling them to other Spacer worlds. Unfortunately, two of their ships are destroyed after landing, and Deejee Bayley is sent to Aurora to secure the services of Gladia as Solaria expert/guide. From this point, the plot uncoils, unwinding relentlessly to the point where Amadiro is ready to destroy the earth. I won't say how, but the thwarting of Amadiro hinges on two pivotal factors. First, that several thousand of years after interstellar flight has been achieved, the subject of nuclear fission is still taboo on earth and a site whose three-word name includes the archaic unit of distance "mile" is still avoided by the natives (yes, Three Mile Island, and no other). Secondly, contrivances of contrivances, the unbridled use of a telepathic robot (Giskard) as a plot device. While this revelation occurred in ROD, Elijah Baley worked it out and it was not a central mechanism for advancing the plot, at least as the plot was developing. However in the tale of intrigue and suspense under discussion, a telepathic robot that can not only read minds to a degree, but alter emotional states (shades of the Second Foundation!) and make people forget inconvenient thoughts or events, is deucedly too much of a convenience for the author, not unlike having a 67th level combination fighter-cleric in your local D&D game. Phooey! There are other holes of a lesser nature -- it doesn't seem plausible that the claustrophobic, robot-dependent Spacer colonies could reasonably supply the numbers of crew necessary to support the fleet of warships sometimes referred to, but this is a mere bagatelle compared to other points. Aside from the character and plot, Asimov's writing is still winceable at points. He can't write romance/passion to save his problematical soul. "And then, at last, there was Elijah Baley, who was never her husband, whom she met only twice, two years apart, each time for a few hours on each of a very few days. Elijah, whose cheek she had once touched with her ungloved hand, on which occasion she had ignited; whose nude body she had later held in her arms, on which occasion she had flamed steadily at last." Yet, in spite of the problems, R&E has re-ignited (oops!) in me a sense of anticipation about future books. Parts of R&E are very enjoyable; for me, the fourth and fifth sixths of the book read smoothly and engaged my attentions very well. While it's not one of Asimov's best, dyed-in-the-positron Asimov fans will love it, and others may find it of interest in spite of its flaws. Jim Brunet decvax!cca!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Review: ROBOTS AND EMPIRE Date: 4 Dec 85 22:55:00 GMT Errrgh! Long as it was, I missed a major point. ***** PLOT SPOILER ******** A key point in the plot is the development of the Zeroth Law of Robotics, so-called because when discovered (by robots, no less) it takes precedence over all of the Three Laws. It runs something like this: "Gee, if saving a human from harm must be good, then saving humanity from harm must be great!" I don't care how many BIPS of positronic processing power you've got, the result would be schizo'd robots, unless they have omniscience, omnipotence, and om... Oops. jimb ------------------------------ From: stolaf!haeckel@caip.rutgers.edu (Paul C. Haeckel) Subject: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe Date: 4 Dec 85 18:45:37 GMT A while back (sometime last year, in fact) someone posted a recipe for their version of the Pangalactic Gargle Blaster, a lovely little drink that was introduced in the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" trilogy (which has 4 books to it - only Douglas Adams would have the chutzpah to do this). Although I never got a chance to try it out, I saved it for some future pique of insanity. Lo and behold, when I finally decided it would be useful this holiday season, I discovered it had gotten nuked somewhere along the line. Does anybody happen tow have this recipe still? Perhaps a reposting would be in order here... Paul Haeckel {...ihnp4!stolaf!haeckel} or {...decvax!stolaf!haeckel} ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!gt4395b@caip.rutgers.edu (Christodoulou,Michael Joseph) Subject: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe Date: 8 Dec 85 19:16:08 GMT THE PANGALACTIC GARGLE BLASTER "Here's what the ENCYCLOPEDIA GALACTICA has to say about alcohol. It says that alcohol is a colorless liquid formed by the fermentation of sugars and also notes its intoxicating effects on certain carbon- based life forms. "THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY also mentions alochol. It says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. "It says that the effect of drinking a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. "The GUIDE also tells you on which planets the best Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters are mixed, how much you can expect to pay for one and what voluntary organizations exist to help you rehabilitate afterward. "The GUIDE even tells you how you can mix one yourself. "Take the juice from one bottle of the Ol' Janx Spirit, it says. "Pour it into one measure of water from the seas of Santraginus V -- Oh, that Santraginean seawater, it says. Oh, those Santraginean fish! "Allow three cubes of Arcturan Mega-gin to melt into the mixture (it must be properly iced or the benzene is lost). "Allow four liters of Fallian marsh gas to bubble through it, in memory of all those happy hikers who have died of pleasure in the Marshes of Fallia. "Over the back of a silver spoon float a measure of Qualactin Hypermint Extract, redolent of all the heady odors of the dark Qualactin Zones, subtle, sweet and mystic. "Drop in the tooth of an Angolian Suntiger. Watch it dissolve, spreading the fires of the Angolian suns deep into the heart of the drink. "Sprinkle Zamphuor. "Add an olive. "Drink . . . but . . . very carefully . . . "THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY sells rather better than the ENCYCLOPEDIA GALACTICA." Douglas Adams, THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, (C) 1979 I have never managed to make this drink properly. If you have any success, let me know and I will Hitchhike over to your place to see what I have been doing wrong. Mike Christodoulou ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 85 14:00:50 pst From: king@kestrel (Dick King) Subject: sunset, ... sunrise [world design service] issue 452 As I understand it, a rapidly rotating nonsolid object forms a DISC, not a FOOTBALL. Why not a double star in close, fast orbit? The world rotates quite slowly, and one star sets due to its own motion as the other rises. dick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 85 9:41:55 CST From: Rich Zellich Subject: First Annual "Tucker" Awards This weekend at Xarkon (Czarkon 3, an "adult relaxacon", nobody under 18 admitted), the first annual "Tuckers" were presented. For those who haven't yet heard of this award, it is a new award instituted to honor the activities of that heretofore unsung group of people known as SF convention partiers. The official title is the Award for Excellence in Science Fiction Convention Partying. Every award must, of course, have a nickname hence the "Tucker". The initial awards were sponsored and administered by the St. Louis in '88 Worldcon Bid Committee, and future awards will be administered by a related group. The awards were nominated and voted on by not only members of Xarkon, but also by anyone who cared to at the Worldcon and NASFiC St. Louis in '88 parties (nomination forms and final ballots were also mailed to selected 'zines, but too late for them to get them into their next issues; the X-Con convention committee also handed them out to their members). There are 3 awards: 1 each for SF Professional (writer, editor, or dealer), SF Artist, and SF Fan. Couples or groups are eligible as a single nominee. Any SF convention partier over the age of 21 is eligible, but nominees this year (and probably 1986 as well) had to be willing to attend the presenting convention if they won. Winners are not eligible for re-nomination for a period of 5 years; losing nominees are eligible again the following year. The design of the physical award is a full bottle of Beam's Choice bourbon mounted on a base; the base has a plaque with the year, award name, and the winner's name. An instant tradition was started this year: the winners received their awards full, but took them home from the convention empty (they had a \lot/ of self-sacrificing volunteers helping empty the awards). The winners and other nominees this year were: Special Grand Master award: Wilson "Bob" Tucker SF Professional: Bob Cornett & Kevin Randle other nominees: Glen Cook Dick Spelman Wilson "Bob" Tucker (Bob would have won this category if he had not been disqualified by the awards committee for receipt of the Grand Master award; it was easier to leave him on the ballot than to explain to everyone why he wasn't on it) SF Artist: David Lee Anderson other nominees: Keith Berdak David Egge Dell Harris SF Fan: Glen Boettcher & Nancy Mildebrandt other nominees: Jim Elmore Karl Laundy Ken Moore Special Ballot Stuffing award: Glen Boettcher (Glen was responsible for a Milwaukee club group and X-Con sending in a whole buncha ballots; the special award was a miniature Beam's bottle on a 1.5-inch square base with a paper "plaque".) A \very/ long list of people was nominated, and 4 of the top nominees (2 pro's, 1 artist, and 1 fan) had to be disqualified either because they couldn't be reached to verify their willingness to be nominated or because they said they couldn't attend Xarkon even if we notified them they had won. This was all done on fairly short notice this year. Next year the nominations will start at least 6 months earlier, to allow time for fanzines and clubs to reproduce the nomination forms and final ballots. Hopefully, nominations and balloting will also be open to SF-Lovers readers; it would have been this year, but it didn't occur to me until just now (sorry 'bout that). Cheers, Rich ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 11 Dec 85 0929-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #458 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Wednesday, 11 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 458 Today's Topics: Books - Dickson & Gibson & Grant & Hubbard & Rosebury & Story Requests Answered (2 msgs), Films - Earth Abides (2 msgs), Television - The New Twilight Zone, Miscellaneous - Pangalactic Gargle Blasters & Ism in writing and censorship ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Dec 85 07:50 PST From: NEwman.pasa@Xerox.ARPA Subject: RE Gordon Dickson's FINAL ENCYCLOPEDIA?" Yes. Good book, if tremendously long. The only real problem is that it is just setting everything up for the last book. The character is well-drawn, the plot keeps your interest, and lots of loose ends are tied up. This book is perhaps not as easy to believe as some earlier works in the cycle, but it is enjoyable nonetheless. When I finished it, I *REALLY* wanted to go out and get the last book and read it right away. I guess I gotta wait until it gets published though. I am told that the next book is the last, and that it will be called 'Childe'. Dave ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1985 22:11:44 PST Subject: William Gibson dead From: Tom Galloway William Gibson, perhaps better known as Maxwell Grant, died Friday in upstate New York. Gibson was the creator, and principal writer of the Shadow pulps in the 30s and 40s. In addition, his peak output rate made Asimov and Silverberg look like they suffer from writer's block! At one point, he wrote and published 1,440,000 words in 10 months (equal to 20 to 24 books). ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 10 Dec 1985 02:19:46-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Charles L. Grant > From: druri!dht@caip.rutgers.edu (Davis Tucker) > There is one story by Charles L. Grant that makes this issue not a > total waste of time, called "The Children, They Laugh So Sweetly". > [...] Interestingly enough, Grant is the one author in this issue > who isn't a "name" of one kind or another.... Only if your knowledge of the field of fantastic literature is restricted to "science fiction" and "fantasy". Charlie Grant is one of the most respected authors/editors in the horror (or as the folk in the genre like to call it --- "dark fantasy") field. He has been a nominee and winner for numerous World Fantasy Awards, both as an writer and an anthologist. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Mon 9 Dec 85 22:44:16-PST From: Blp Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #442 Several years ago friends of mine (!) gave me, as a "gag" gift, the hardcover edition of L. Ron Hubbard's BATTLEFIELD EARTH. I'll forego an explanation of why this might be considered a "gag" gift, although some of you more perceptive types might be able to figure it out from context. For those of you who are Scientologists (R) (or maybe (C)?), I'll just say that I thought the book was pure drivel and mention that I'm PTS so that you can skip the rest of this and ignore commentary from such a "downscale" thetan. For those with a more open mind (which, I am told, L. Ron Hubbard warns his "followers" against), I'd like to point out that most modern science fiction authors have grown away from the sophormoric writing that marked the pulp era of science fiction and are writing more humanistic and socially relevent fiction these days. You may have noticed. I admit to occasionally reading light science fiction from those bygone days (perhaps not enough to know what I'm talking about), but with an historical perspective. I'd like to think that today's audiences demand more sophistication, even in escapist science fiction (hardly a tome 819 pages long in hardcover should qualify as). Besides, the book is BORING. DULL. THIN (tonnage of felled forests not withstanding). If you need a good book to get to sleep with, this is the one; but lets not call it science fiction, fer Crissakes! There's nothing scientific about it. It's cops-and-robbers, cowboys-and-indians, good-guys-and-bad-guys, Rambo-and-VC-and-CIA xenophobia camp. It's something the general public may eat up right now, but I expect something better from science fiction. The only way I could see it as a movie would be as a spoof on the plastic monster movies from Japan. I finished it, but didn't like it. I give it three-and-a-half turkeys. It would have been 4 if it were any longer. The sequel gets 4 right off the bat for being a sequel to such a wretched writing. ------------------------------ From: warwick!kay@caip.rutgers.edu (Kay Dekker) Subject: Re: Space Is Clean Date: 6 Dec 85 13:02:25 GMT kim@analog.UUCP (Kim Helliwell) writes: >Apropos of the discussion on dirty diapers and dog messes being >disgusting because of their connection to living matter, I just >recently finished reading a book on this very topic, which might be >of interest to some. The book is entitle "Life on Man", by Theodor >Rosebury. Don't rush down to your local bookstore to look for it, >though--it was published in the 1960's, and I found it in a used >bookstore. I expect you could find it in a library, though. Kim, I think the book is still available, at least here in the UK: I bought a copy a couple of years ago in paperback. I'll post bibliographic details in a couple of days, all being well. Kay. ... mcvax!ukc!warwick!flame!kay ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 10 Dec 1985 08:09:09-PST From: butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM Subject: re: name that story From Louis Steinberg: > 1) Two agents for competing powers crashland on a primative planet. > ... one agent (the protagonist) doesn't know > any linquistics but does know about airplanes, and the competing > agent does know a lot about linguistics. Unfortunately, I don't know the author, but I remember this story, and I liked it, so I have to jump in here anyway. The title, I'm virtually certain, is "Something to Say" (or something very close). The linguist learns the language, and is able to talk to the natives, and is quite distressed to find that the natives prefer her opponent, who can't speak coherently, although he's taught them to make better airplanes. He can't talk to them: but unlike her, he's got something to say... I believe it was in Analog (probably back in the mid 70s, since my collection has gone largely unread since then). I also remember the other story, but I don't know author, title, time, or place. Sigh. Dave Butenhof ZKO2-3/K06 Digital Equipment Corp. 110 Spitbrook Road Nashua NH 03062 clt::butenhof butenhof%clt.DEC@decwrl.ARPA {allegra,shasta,decvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-clt!butenhof ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 85 00:50:34 EST From: Anne Marie Quint {/amqueue} Subject: Re: answer to story request To: steinberg@RED.RUTGERS.EDU >From: Louis Steinberg >2) Time travel has been invented, but you have to be REAL CAREFUL >back then or you will change the future. Expeditions are mounted >to the past to hunt dinosaurs, but only after very careful study of >the particular dinosaur being hunted to make sure killing it won't >have major effects. The protagonist is a klutz who panics, steps >off the approved path (a walkway somehow levitated off the >ground?), kills a butterfly, and goes back to his normal time to >find much changed - his first hint is when he sees signs with >strange spellings. This one is "The Sound of Thunder", a short story by Ray Bradbury... and possibly (Im not sure I remember that far back) my first intro to science fiction. Very powerful for a 11 year old kid. /amqueue [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to the following people who submitted similar information: Brett Slocum (Slocum\@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) Vince Fuller (Vince.Fuller@C.CS.CMU.EDU) jen@ATHENA.MIT.EDU ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 07:08:45-CST From: William DeVaughan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #450 Re - Hank Buurman's request for info on "blue in the half-moons": This is an old rascist code for mixed white/black ancestry which is supposed to result in a blue shading to the pale half moon at the base of the fingernails, popular as a "test" in days of the KKK in the old South. ------------------------------ Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 10:50:58-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Earth Abides Query The issue hinted at by Em's blue fingernails is that she had a certain amount of - ahem - "coloured" blood. Recall that the novel was published at a time before it was widely realised that everyone's blood was red, and when several states still tried to enforce "miscegenation" laws. Having been brought up in colonial Africa, where similar attitudes were prevalent, I found this particular scene between Ish and Em very moving. ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!ccastkv@caip.rutgers.edu (KEITH VAGLIENTI) Subject: Re: twilight zone Date: 9 Dec 85 15:32:42 GMT I have to disagree. I thought that "The Beacon" segment was more along the lines of "Night Gallery" than "Twilight Zone." TZ always had a sense of eith cosmic justice or cosmic irony. This had neither. The doctor certainly didn't deserve his fate. As a TZ episode I disliked this segment immensely. On the other hand, I thought "One Life, Furnished in Early Poverty" was a successful attempt at recreating the old feel of TZ. Ellison did an excellent job of capturing the "you can't go back" theme that appeared so often in the early series. I think Ellison makes an excellent writer for TZ and hope he stays with it. I'm glad to see that he is being allowed to do stories like has thinks they should be done. The way his work has been butched in the past ("The Starlost" and other series) I was surprised that he decided to work on another TV project but am glad he did. Keith Conrad Vaglienti Georgia Insitute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 {akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!ccastkv ------------------------------ From: gitpyr!gt3191b@caip.rutgers.edu (McAllister, Daniel G.) Subject: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe Date: 9 Dec 85 04:26:50 GMT How about a 1985 English version (or a close proximity thereof) to this "magical" concoction. I, too would like to experience this wiping out of my frontal lobe. (I swear, with some people you have to be so careful how you chose your words you could strangle them for wasting your time. It's about time someone realize that English is at best an imperfect language and that the literal meaning of most of what we say is not what we want to say. "If only you didn't play stupid SO OFTEN, maybe I could believe it wasn't true!") ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: Ism in writing and censorship Date: 7 Dec 85 02:03:03 GMT WARNING: THIS THING IS LONG! (Over 100 lines) RTaylor.9993iLONS@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA writes: >From: calmasd!gail@caip.rutgers.edu (Gail B. Hanrahan) >>What Heinlein wrote for teenaged females in 1962 was appropriate >>*for the time*. What it says is, "-Hey, the future isn't going to >>be all that different from the present; women will fill the same >>roles they always have, and (1962) males' assumptions of what >>those roles are will remain unchallenged-". > >Not necessarily so. Even uncritical readers (or listeners or >watchers, for those not old enough to read yet) notice differences >or contradictions in what they see and hear in real life and >fiction. It is our responsibility as adults and parents to ensure >that the difference is there to detect! Lots of people want to stamp out another book for its 'ism': HUCKLEBERRY FINN. Only problem is they're defeating themselves: FINN was *panning* racism, deliberately including it, but in such a way as to make it look stupid. [Or was that TOM SAWYER? I never did read the originals, rather than the united confusion by other writers.] <- I admit my deficiencies, at least >I intend to either have Andy read Podkayne or read it to him--and I >expect to use it as a means and an opening to questions, and/or >comments from him both at the time and at some future time. Thank the Witness that someone wants their kid to be able to think!!! >This, it seems to me, is a Bad Thing. I don't want to see >reinforcement of stereotypes that so many people (yes, I mean men, >too) have fought to eliminate for so long. Neither do I. But it struck me that Podkayne wasn't the stereotypical girl; I read her comments as being ``most men have weak minds. Encourage the poor dumb brutes, then do what you want''. Which is pretty much what Heinlein's been saying openly in his more recent books. Also see below. >>My theory is that 80% of a child's unconcious attitudes and >>personality are formed before they start school, and they are at >>the 95% point by the time they are 7 or 8 or 9. The remainder >>comes slowly. Concious changes to their attitudes and personality >>come later, and can be significant--if they are willing to expend >>the effort (I did some, when I was in college--talk about EFFORT!) Worthwhile effort. I've been making it a habit to try to let my attitudes be malleable. Whether I've succeeded or not (yet) is debatable.... >> I graduated from high school in 1976, and the school system then >> was still steering girls away from math. What does Podkayne say? >> "-It doesn't look good for a girl to know math, so even if you do >> know math, don't let anyone know about it. Men are such fragile >> creatures that they won't be able to handle it.-" Let me give the author of the above blurb comment the male angle, from one who has tried to analyze his own motives. 'Fraid Poddy's right. Most men are too caught up in the macho fallacy to be able to accept that which lies outside it (i.e. smart women who can leg it with a man). I never had to fight that fallacy until I encountered it in third grade (I was in an LD group in grades 1 & 2: I was ``hyperactive''. Somehow the petty racisms and sexisms didn't get a chance to surface; maybe the attitude of ``who cares if you're classed LD; you can do it as well as anyone else'' helped. . .) and from then on I didn't worry that much about defending my beliefs to the savages; I merely defended by beliefs FROM the savages, so as not to pick up sexist/racist attitudes. To cure the problem, heal society. INCLUDING WOMEN: many women still feel, even if they work, that the macho-male-ruler image is still valid. (I've known some. You can't convince them that sexual equality is desireable. Mainly because it's much easier not to have to think. . .) But sexism DOES show up a fatal weakness in men; they can't adjust to changing mores, especially the acceptability of traditionally ``lesser'' groups (women, minorities) as equals. (Screw 'em. Forth Humanity, to Hell with the provincials.) >> This doesn't strike me as being very fair to women OR men! Strike ``equality''; insert ``equality POTENTIAL''. Give people a chance. But most just can't handle it; we can't all be Da Vinci or Marie Curie. No, it's not ``fair'' that some are less than others (weak-minded men in particular), but ``life's a bitch and then you die''. Nobody ever said it would be ``fair''. This is longer than I expected, but I do get a bit upset about prevailing attitudes. ncoast!allbery@Case.CSNet (ncoast!allbery%Case.CSNet@CSNet-Relay.ARPA) ..decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery (..ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St., Mentor, OH 44060 (I moved) Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 -- MCI MAIL BALLBERY ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Dec 85 0938-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #459 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 12 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 459 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Card & Ford & Green & Simak & Wilhelm & Request Answered, Films - Star Trek: The Wrath of Kahn, Radio - Ruby, Television - Dr. Who, Miscellaneous - Feminism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Obscure books (Chthon) Date: 8 Dec 85 21:39:00 GMT bill@sigma.UUCP writes: >ivanlan@ccvaxa.UUCP writes: >>anthony's first or second novel was called 'chthon.' it was >>about *someone* kidnapped from earth.... > >Whoa! If this is "Chthon" of Hvee, the minionettes, chimera, and >the god of the underworld (caverns), you've got the wrong >description! > >If this is another "Chthon", could you tell me about it? --well, I would if I remembered it; I didn't say it was about a dentist. I only said it was about someone who was kidnapped (but I could have been wrong about the from Earth part). I remember the cover--it was done by the same fellow who did the cover for the first edition of Silverberg's thorns (both were published by Ballantine). and *all* I remember of the plot is the kidnapping, and something about >underground caverns. Is your Chthon by Piers Anthony? if so, it is the same book and my memory could use updating (tell me about your Chthon...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 85 18:27:10 est From: ringwld!jmturn%cca-unix.arpa@cca-unix.arpa Subject: Ender's Game >From: gladys!dalton@caip.rutgers.edu (David Dalton) >By the way, ENDER'S GAME is one of the finest novels I've read in a >while. The premise is not a new one now: A wargames simulation that >is much more than it appears to be. But Card's writing style is >disciplined and highly readable. And the tenderness and brutality >with which he handles his characters can be quite moving. Right >now, hardcover only, TOR. The paperback is due in early 1986, along >with the sequel, SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD. Well, the publication I do reviews for got a review copy of the paperback early last week. The printing history lists first paperback printing as January 1986, but I suspect it is available in stores now. BTW, I totally agree with the above review and intend to say basically the same thing in mine. There hasn't been a lot of good SF in novel length lately, this was a nice surprise. James Turner (The Ringworld Engineer) ARPA ringwld!jmturn@CCA-UNIX.ARPA decvax \ sri-unix \ UUCP !cca!ringwld!jmturn ima / linus / MAIL 329 Ward Street; Newton, MA 02159 ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: John M. Ford Date: 10 Dec 85 10:21:24 GMT > From: jhunix!ins_amap > Which makes me think to ask, has Mr. Ford published any > Alternities Corporation stories since "Slowly By, Lorena" in IASFM > some time (years) ago? They were the best things the magazine > published under Scithers, other than maybe the "Adventures in > Unhistory" by I believe Algis Budrys. Have the Alternities > stories been anthologised? Where? I only know of one Alternities, Inc. story since "Lorena". For the record, the series consists of: "Mandalay" IASFM (Oct 1979) "Out of Service" IASFM (Jul 1980) "Slowly By, Lorena" IASFM (Nov 1980) "Intersections" IASFM (Oct 26 1981) A couple of them may have appeared in the various anthologies culled from IASFM that Davis Publications did as digest-sized paperbacks and Dial Press did as hardcovers. I don't believe that any of them have been otherwise anthologized. There certainly hasn't been a collection of them. And the "Adventures in Unhistory" were written by Avram Davidson. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Obscure books Date: 7 Dec 85 21:53:00 GMT >From: raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA >Another book in a similar vein is "Conscious Interplanetary", >author forgotten. A "Conscious" is like a doctorate degree given >to specially trained people. These individuals are literally the >"conscious" of the human race as they judge whether a habitable >planet contains intelligent life. If not, the humans move in and >wipe out all alien life. If so, the planet is left alone. This >proves to be an immense responsibility because of the moral versus >economic/population/political factors involved. The adventures in >the book are quite entertaining. > >I would appreciate pointers to either of the above books. That's "conscience." The book is "Conscience Interplanetary," by one Joseph Green, the same Joe Green who wrote "The Mind Behind the Eye" (DAW) and "Star Probe" (ACE). I turned around to get the stats on my copy, and found it gone. I am pretty sure it was published by DAW. I liked the book because it had some fresh thinking on australopithecines and paranthropus robustus (or gracile and robust australopithecines, if you prefer), at least for the time. This was before Mike Bishop became a big star by writing anthropological sf. Green's "conscience" stories, as i recall, came out in F&SF (maybe Analog, too, though that doesn't seem quite right), and later were re-written slightly to make up the book. Check used book stores... ivan van laningham ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 85 19:06:55 EST From: Nick Simicich Subject: Way Station.... In reading old SF-Lovers, I noticed that rtaylor@radc-multics described an unusual situation regarding the book "Way Station" by Clifford Simak in the book club edition. Specifically, this person's spouse who normally had non-SF tastes in their reading picked up this book and could not put it down until they had finished. I found this interesting. My spouse's tastes normally run to lurid biographical books about recently dead celebrities and mainstream novels (if they are popular enough) with an occasional dash of horror thrown in. She is much more likely to be found in front of the TV set (bad influence on me, I'm afraid) than reading anything other than the New York Times, and has a collection of the TV Guide premier issues dating back to 1960 or so. Yet when this book arrived, she picked it up, and eagerly devoured it. It was almost as if it were a book describing how Marilyn Monroe had arranged to have Robert Kennedy assassinated before her suicide which was really a murder, complete with photographs, and an appendix full of TV Trivia. Now I recall this book. I thought it wasn't bad, but it also wasn't spectacular. Is it possible that the Science Fiction Book Club has impregnated this book with some sort of chemical which attracts non-SF fans? Does the dust jacket contain subliminal messages for readers which insist, in type only visible in the infrared spectrum that this book is not really an SF book? Is it total coincidence? Does anyone have any explanation for this? ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!kishore2@caip.rutgers.edu (K.Singhal - Systems Design) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 9 Dec 85 17:31:36 GMT franka@mmintl.UUCP (Frank Adams) writes: >rhw9906@wucec2.UUCP (Richard Hill Wyatt Jr) writes: >> On the subject of cloning societys, anybody ever read "Where >>Late the Sweet Birds Sang" by Kate Wilheim(?)? It was a VERY good >>treatment of a society set up by cloning, and included the loss of >>originality/creativity in the clones. >Pardon me, but I thought "Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang" was >perfectly awful. A micro plot summary: first half: clones are >superior; second half: clones are inferior. The clones failed in >the second half in the same way they triumphed in the first. >Either half alone was plausible; the combination was not. You have missed the point of Wilhelm's(sp?) story then. The clones were supposed to carry on from the non-clones who could not reproduce. They were supposed to allow the human race to continue. Instead with each successive clone generation they diverged from what they were orinally were supposed to do. They lost their humanity. They lost those traits also which are important but not readily pinned down, such as creativity, and artistic ability, and adapability. I felt that "Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang" was an excellent book, I have read it through several times, and still find it good. S. Lang Dept. of Systems Design Eng. University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 85 14:54:09 PST (Tuesday) Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #453 From: hallgren.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA "SPACE PRISON" by Tom Godwin is the book John Woolley is looking for. The ship wasn't attacked by pirates, but by enemy aliens (Gerns), who enslaved all the people that had skills they wanted and marooned the rest on 'Ragnerock', a barely habitable planet. The mockers were telepathic squirrels found there. There is a sequel, "THE SPACE BARBARIANS". I have enjoyed these two books very much. Recommended reading for EE Smith and John Campbell fans. Clark Hallgren ------------------------------ From: Chris McMenomy Date: 11 Dec 85 14:22:57 PST (Wed) Subject: ABC's showing of Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan *** SPOILER WARNING: This discusses some of the scenes in TWoK *** *** in detail and may bother people who haven't seen the movie.*** When ABC aired TWoK, they showed the expanded version (it's about twelve minutes longer). The additional scenes are all short, but some are pretty important. One takes place as Kirk comes aboard the Enterprise for the inspection tour: the young cadet Peter defends the Engineering department as the best in StarFleet and Scotty acknowledges to Kirk that Peter is his "sister's youngest". This scene was left out of the theater release and Scotty's relationship with the cadet is thus unexplained for the whole movie. I was really glad it got back in. The second "additional" scene is a pan of the bridge when Scotty shows up with Peter in his arms after the first attack by Khan. Everyone is in shock (they all know it's Scotty's nephew), and even Spock closes his eyes, indicating his own emotional pain--important because we are now dealing with the new, unified Spock who has accepted both parts of his biological heritage. The third scene I remember is after the search party is rescued from the inside of the asteroid. Kirk is being escorted to the bridge by Spock, and they are using the ladders between decks because all the elevators are out. Kirk remarks "That young man is my son," to which Spock, ever tactful, replies "Fascinating". This is the only explanation Kirk gives Spock. I suspect there are a few more scenes I don't recall at the moment, but they were all pretty short. ST:TMP was also aired with extra minutes. I think they were all dialogue, and I remember at the time that they made a whole lot of difference to the movie; the characters were more developed than the theater release gave them credit for. Christe PS: James Doohan has been traveling around Southern California lately to various Walden BookStores to publicize the latest release of new ST videocassettes--and signing books. We caught him at a lull in the lines at the Westside Pavilion in West LA and he admitted TWoK was his favorite of the three movies. Sorry, I didn't have time to ask about the new movie.... sigh. Anyway, check your local bookstores for publicity --it was a lot nicer than trying to track him down at a Con. ------------------------------ Date: Tuesday, 10 Dec 1985 20:26:15-PST From: wood%nermal.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Celeste DTN522-2590 CX01-1/P23 From: NERMAL::WOOD) Subject: Ruby II I confess that my posting about "Ruby" was my first posting and I may have been a little overzealous. "Ruby" is excellent. I would rate it with five stars or +4, whatever scale you wish. The day I wrote my posting I had just recieved "Ruby II". I was listening to it, but it took a couple of days. "Ruby II" is 65 -5 minute episodes. The begining was interesting and I thought they had an good plot going. However, episode 20 was the first hint of something Silly. I figured it was just a 'filler' episode, but I was wrong. Episode 35 really started the disappointing trend and of the last 20 episodes I think that only half were relevant to the original plot (37, 38, 39, 42, 44, 53, 54, 56, 62, 63, and 64). "Ruby II" is not a total waste of time, but I think I will have to listen to the story without some of the distracting and silly episodes to really appreciate it. On a scale of -4 to +4 I would give it 0. (minor spoiler) There are no "Android Sisters" since they have a recording contract with MGMG. A lot of the original characters are there - And/Or, Teru, Rodant, and Ruby. A few new characters are present also - Ruby II, Sam and Sal (Robots), a Tookah, and "The Digital Dentist". Celeste Wood ------------------------------ From: acf4!percus@caip.rutgers.edu (Allon G. Percus) Subject: Interruption of Dr. Who (Space Museum) Date: 10 Dec 85 21:37:00 GMT Apparently, during New Jersey Network's showing of "The Space Museum" on Saturday night, Channel 50's transmitter blew a fuse. Therefore, we in New York City, who don't get 23, 52, or 58, were unable to watch past the first half hour (and it seemed like an excellent episode :-( ). I called NJN today to ask if they could repeat the story, but they said that they were only licensed to show the story ONCE on the Network, so they couldn't repeat it. However, as the entire story was not broadcast on 50, it seems that, legally, there is no real problem. Hopefully, the Network will, in that case, repeat the story either before or after "The Chase" next Saturday. A. G. Percus (ARPA) percus@acf4 (NYU) percus.acf4 (UUCP) ...{allegra!ihnp4!seismo}!cmcl2!acf4!percus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 85 11:34 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Re: Feminism & SF: Comments from ... (I won't include the text, it's too long.) Dear Anthony, I think that anti-feminist feelings are not often expressed because many SF & fantasy readers are among the enlightened on this topic. On the question of fairness, I believe that as long as people believe that life isn't fair, and don't do anything about it, it will be remain unfair. Feminism doesn't claim that men and women aren't different, only that women aren't inferior. I certainly think that women are specialized (any of you men tried to give birth lately, Omni not withstanding?), but that doesn't mean that childbearing is the only thing they can do. In regards to the woman vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen what a 5' 6" martial artist can do against a group of the most awesome brawlers with weapons? I have, and I treat them with respect (male or female). In tactics of many sorts, I prefer the swift, maneuverable attacker to the lumbering armored one. (Blackthorne's ship vs. the Black ship in Shogun, X-wings vs. Deathstar in Star Wars : The Last Hope, Guerilla warfare vs. British square in the Am. Revolution (not armored, but fits the bill anyway), etc.) In conclusion, I find the values of feminism to fit well with my own. I enjoy feminist SF and fantasy because people are emphasized, not the latest whiz-bang, be it magic or technology. Feminist authors hold my interest better. Therefore, I read them more often and enjoy them more. BTW, feminism is not restricted to women (e.g. Alan Alda), just as male chauvinism is not resticted to men (e.g. Phyllis Schafly). Brett Slocum (a male feminist) Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 12 Dec 85 1005-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #460 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 12 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 460 Today's Topics: Books - Adams & Bailey & Campbell & Dick & Heinlein & "Enemy Mine" & Story Request, Films - Enemy Mine, Miscellaneous - Computer Graphics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mcewan@uiucdcs.CS.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Gargle Blaster (actually 4-book Date: 9 Dec 85 20:22:00 GMT >>... the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" trilogy (which has 4 >>books to it - only Douglas Adams would have the chutzpah to do >>this)... > Four-or-more book "trilogies" are not _nearly_ as uncommon as > you seem to believe... In fact, authors with the will-power to > stop after writing a trilogy are rare. Lots of series started out > as trilogies. But HHGTTG isn't one of them. It started out as one book, which was so successful that a sequel was written, and then another sequel, at which point people took to calling it a trilogy. It was never intended as a trilogy. Scott McEwan {ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!mcewan ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Dec 1985 02:35:55-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Feminism and SF (Robin Bailey) [Catching up on some old business...] > From: Jessie Tharp > For several years, I have been reading and collecting science > fiction by and about women, in order to compile and code a list of > women science fiction authors. [...] + Robin Bailey [...] I didn't notice if anyone mentioned this before, but Robin Bailey is a man. At least he was the last time I saw him at a convention. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Dec 1985 02:42:45-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Campbell basis for Heinlein novel > From: SEB%CRNLNS.BITNET@WISCVM.ARPA (Selden Ball) > I distinctly remember reading an article saying that this > [Heinlein's SIXTH COLUMN --- jmb] was based on a short novel by > John Campbell. I could swear that Campbell's story was recently > (within the past 5 years) printed in a collection of his > unpublished works, but I couldn't find it when I went looking for > it last night. jayembee? You're thinking of "All", published in THE SPACE BEYOND, Pyramid Books, 1976. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 85 14:43 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: PKD discussions... I heartily recommend Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by PKD. It was the basis for the movie Blade Runner (for those of you living in a box) and it deals with the issue of machine intelligence to a greater and slightly bizarre degree. I enjoyed it more than the movie, although I think Ridley Scott did a marvelous job with Blade Runner (and we all like Harrison, don't we?). Someone mentioned that PKD had some interesting religous notions, and a short story to illustrate this was in Omni a while ago and is reprinted in a Best of Omni (lots of good stuff). The name is Rutvarra's Case and concerns a space wreck where everyone died except for a woman's brain. The aliens are accused of performing immoral experiments on this barely living brain. Lots of religious experiences via direct stimulation. This is a story to make people sit and think. As a matter of fact, I think I need to read it again. Toodles, Jon ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 1985 15:48:04 EST (Wed) From: Dan Hoey Subject: Re: JOB - Mini Review from a UK viewpoint To: stc!pete@ru-caip.ARPA >From: stc!pete@caip.rutgers.edu > ... Heaven/Hell sequence is good fun. Heinlein's treatment of Heaven and Hell, and possibly the entire book, imitates James Branch Cabell's *Jurgen*, which you might guess since both are subtitled *A Comedy of Justice*. If you want to know who Koshchei really is, read it. (Read it anyway, it's a great fantasy.) But good luck finding a copy. I don't know if it's in print now; mine is from a used-book stall. Dan Hoey ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 85 08:50:34 PST (Wednesday) Subject: An opinion of "Enemy Mine" (the book) From: Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA (In light of all the hooraw about "reviews" and "criticisms" being raised on this net, I wanted to give this piece a different descriptive word; hence, "opinion") *** WARNING: THIS OPINION IS ABSOLUTELY LACED WITH SPOILERS! *** OK, I admit it, see? I freely confess to being a xenophile -- I happen to LIKE aliens. Call it a weakness, but I've always been very fond of stories where human and alien are able to forge some sort of non-hostile relationship. You know, like Han and Chewie, or Truzenzuzex and Bran Tse-Mallory (from the Humanx Commonwealth stories of Alan Dean Foster). Or, more to the point, like Willis E. Davidge, Human, and Jeriba Shigan, Drac, the protagonists of this wonderful book. Granted, their relationship isn't exactly "non-hostile" to start with, what with the two of them trying their level best to kill each other. Humans and the reptilian Dracs are at war, but neither side is able to get much of an advantage. This leaves small squadrons of fighters battling it out in the border areas, which include the setting of this story, a world named Fyrine IV. Both Willy Davidge and "Jerry" Shigan are fighter pilots, who manage to shoot each other down while dogfighting in Fyrine IV's atmosphere. Once the two are on the ground, however, the story really begins. Survival being the usual first order of business, simply obtaining food and shelter (from periodic meteor attacks) consumes most of their time and energy. Once the basic necessities are taken care of, the two really start to communicate. It takes time, of course, as neither initially speaks the other's language. In the end, though, it is the striking commonality of certain philosophical ideas, despite differences in cultural backgrounds, that cements this relationship. It will be a great help in understanding these philosophical ideas if you happen to be an afficionado of Disney and Warner Brothers cartoons. Reading this book is an absorbing thing. You realize that the two initially suspicious beings really *are* capable of lowering the barriers of mistrust and prejudice that they brought with them to this world. It takes hard work (what relationships don't?), but the two of them make it work. If you're the kind of person that insists on metaphors in the stories you read, then you'll find the metaphors in this story are upbeat. The story demonstrates that no matter how wide the supposed gap that separates you from your "enemy", you'll find enough similarities to bridge that gap. In the final analysis, my opinion is that "Enemy Mine" is best called a love story. Not a love story in the *physical* sense, mind you (although there are some wonderfully close moments between the two characters), but a real love story, nonetheless. As Jerry lies dying in childbirth, it has Willy swear that the new child will, in due course, be presented to the High Council on Drac. The loyalty that Davidge shows in honoring this last wish, through enormous difficulties, clearly reflects the love that he holds for his lost friend. Born of strife it may have been, but the friendship between these two "brothers-in-life" is a real and loving one. If you're a xenophile too, I urge you to read this book. The movie version is due out around Christmastime. I can hardly wait. Side note: I can't help wondering about the last name of the human, Davidge. Is is it a coincidence that it is the first name and first two letters of the last name of David Gerrold, one of the co-authors? "Enemy Mine", a novel by Barry B. Longyear and David Gerrold, from the screenplay by Edward Khmara, based on the story by Barry Longyear. Charter Books. Dave Opstad (Opstad.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 85 08:00 CST From: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA Subject: Story Search My fiancee is trying to find out the title and author of a book she read about 10 years ago. She remembers that it was like an ACE Double, novella in length and flip the book over. Plot synopsis: It involved a future when pyramid power has developed to the point that massive power stations are possible, tapping into the Earth's magnetic field or something. A scientist working on the project finds evidence that this has been done before by a previous civilization. Story goes into a flashback. Flashback: In the distant past, the supercontinent before continental drift is called Atlantis. Pyramid power stations supply power for everything. This civilization is just building a couple new ones on the north and south poles in order to send a starship out of the solar system. Massive earthquakes and other geologic activity result. The stress causes the supercontinent to break up. Two scientists escape in the ship that was being launched. They come back a long time later and civilization has fallen into barbarism. The rest of the story is an account of the events in the Old Testament from these scientists points of view. Other details: Non-interference directive, a scientist named Lucifer breaks Non-interference Directive, The Great Flood is caused by readjusting the Earth's orbit, put out of whack by the cataclysm (sp), radio-controlled Arks all over the world. These are the details that she remembers. We would appreciate any help in this matter. Thanks in advance. Brett Slocum Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA ------------------------------ Subject: Enemy Mine From: <#d22%ddathd21.BITNET@wiscvm.ARPA> (Ralf Bayer) Date: 12 Dec 85 03:15:00 +0100 Hi, folks, here's a short review of a German sf movie I just saw. The movie is called 'Enemy mine - geliebter Feind'. It is about to be released here in Germany (I saw it in a preview), and it will definitely be shown over there in the US, but I don't know of any timeframe for that. The movie is by Wolfgang Petersen, a German director who also did _Das Boot_ (don't know the American title, it's a submarine story of WW II), and _The Neverending Story_, a tale/fantasy movie after the book by Michael Ende. The story of the movie is great, but sometimes it gets really melodramatic, and then it looses. The acting and the special effects are also very good. Some of the special effects were done by ILM (the star fight at the beginning), but others are also great, like some of the aliens on the planet, and the masks of the aliens, also. On a scale of +4 to -4, I give that film a rating of +2.5. And here is how the story goes: (Introduction to the theme - only mild spoilers) The plot is settled at the end of the 21th century, mankind has developed FTL travel and has pioneered other systems. But there are difficulties: one of the most promising systems is owned by a race of reptiles, and they don't want to let men in. So a star war starts ... The protagonist is a fighter gunner in that war, stationed in some space station in a far away system. One day they get out for a fight, and they shoot down an alien fighter, whose pilot can land on a planet. They too have to try a landing, but the other guy in the human spacecraft gets killed at that. So the human and the alien are alone on a wild and unexplored planet, but they are enemies, and they don't even understand each other's language. This takes about 15 minutes of film time to happen, and the real theme of the movie is ready to start ... Here comes the whole story: (******* SPOILER WARNING *******) The human buries his comrade, and he seeks the wreck of the alien fighter. He finds it, and the alien too, and he tries to kill the alien, but he is captured. The night after this, when both are asleep, many meteors start falling around them, and the human wakes the alien up so that they can seek shelter between some rocks. In the following days, the human is the captive and the slave of the alien. But gradually their hostility ceases, and they slowly start to understand each other. After some adventures with the nature of the planet, they learn each other's language and start to understand each other in some way. Days later, the human decides to go and seek some help. The alien want's to stay at the primitive hut they built, and the human can't talk him into coming along. So he goes alone. He even finds some signs that humans must have been at some place (he discovers a pepsi tin ...), but he finds out that these must have been so-called 'scavengers' (spelling?), who are humans that hold the aliens as slaves. So he goes back to the hut. In the meantime it's winter, and when he comes back the alien tells him that he's pregnant. The aliens are some kind of monosexuals. During the birth, the alien dies. So the human raises the alien baby, and some day the scavengers come back. He goes alone to look for them. Days later, the young alien runs to the scavenger's ship to see some people of his own kind. He gets captured by the scavengers, and the human, who runs after him, gets nearly shot, but he is rescued by a military rescue unit, that accidentally comes along (that's a little bit too much luck, I think). Back in the space station, the high officers of the secret service get nervous, because he has been missing for three years, and because he speaks in the language of the aliens as he lies there in unconsciousness, and they think he's an alien spy. After he's well again, he steals a fighter, shoots the doors of the hangar open and lands on the planet to rescue the slaved aliens and his friend's son. But he is detected by the scavengers and only succeeds after some of his friends from his unit come and help him (Great showdown inside the mining ship of the scavengers). (****** END OF SPOILER *******) cheers Ralf Bayer Computing Center at the Technical University of Darmstadt Federal Republic of Germany ( West Germany ) ------------------------------ From: houligan!daemon@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Re: Amazing Stories - Nov. 3 Date: 10 Dec 85 00:34:40 GMT >> BTW, who does the (truly Amazing) computer graphics that start >> out each episode? I was quite impressed with the realistic >> surface textures and was especially amazed by the knight in >> shining armor. > The "Amazing Stories" opener was done by Robert Abel and > Associates. I suspect that the chrome on the knight is the same > chrome used on the sexy robot in "Brilliance", the commercial they > did for American Can. I just got to see a "behind the scenes" video about how these commercials, plus the Rotatract razor ad, were made, when I started working here (Gould Computer Systems, Ft Lauderdale). They like to show it to all the new people, as the Abel crew used Gould number-crunchers to generate the images. It was only appropriate that I hadn't had time to watch an episode of Mazing yet, what with moving and all (but I have them all on tape). Although it's not evident (to me, at least) in the titles, the promo I saw showed a closeup of the book, and it even has a "leather-grain" binding. Very highly detailed graphics! tgi Personal: Craig Strickland (alias "tgi") Financial:Gould Computer Systems Division, UNIX Development Physical: PO Box 409148, Ft Lauderdale, FL 33340-9148 Vocal: 305/587-2900 x5014 UUCP: {brl-bmd,ccvaxa,pur-ee,sun}!csd-gould!midas!tgi decvax!sii!trixie/ Other: CompuServe: 76545,1007 Source: BDQ615 Telex: 650-272-3350 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  0,unseen,, *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Dec 85 1252-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #461 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 461 Today's Topics: Books - Edwards & Harrison & Moorcock (2 msgs) & Saberhagen & Wolfe (3 msgs) & Author Request & An Author Request Answered, Radio - Ruby, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Immortality & Feminism (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Kelley Edwards Date: 12 Dec 85 15:41:57 GMT [Catching up on some old business...] > From: im4u!jsq (John Quarterman) > Does anyone know of any sf written by Kelly Edwards? He mostly > wrote short stories, I think. Anybody know who he really is? I've only been able to find two citations for Kelley [sic] Edwards: "Radiation" Astounding Science Fiction (4/52) "Counterspy" Astounding Science Fiction (12/53) I've seen nothing in any of my references to indicate that Kelley Edwards isn't the author's real name. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: The Stainless Steel Rat series Date: 12 Dec 85 17:04:36 GMT > From: reed!kamath (Sean Kamath) > BTW: Does anyone know if the original Stainless Steal Rat stories > were published by Bantam Books? Only THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT WANTS YOU and THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT FOR PRESIDENT. The others were published by a variety of publishers: THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT was first published by Pyramid (paperback), then by Walker (hardcover), then by Berkley (paperback). THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT'S REVENGE was first published by Walker (hardcover), then by Berkley (paperback). THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT SAVES THE WORLD was first published by Putnam (hardcover), then by Berkley (paperback). THE ADVENTURES OF THE STAINLESS STEEL RAT (a collection of the previous three novels) was first published by the SF Book Club (hardcover), then by Berkley (paperback). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 1985 09:29:57-EST (Thursday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: Eternal Champion I've read the entire cycle, and I've never heard of any book following "Silver Warriors." Perhaps you are thinking of "Phoenix in Obsidian," the original title. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Third John Daker book Date: 12 Dec 85 15:38:20 GMT > From: reed!kamath (Sean Kamath) > Also, does anyone know the third book in Michael Moorcock's > "Eternal Champion" trilogy? (The one that starts out with Erikose > in the Eternal Champion and continues with Count Urlick in The > Silver Worriors) There is no third book in the John Daker series, unless you count the "graphic novel" (basicly, a comic book with delusions of grandeur) THE SWORDS OF HEAVEN, THE FLOWERS OF HELL drawn by Howard Chaykin (currently of AMERICAN FLAGG! fame) from an outline by Moorcock, and published by HM Communications (publishers of HEAVY METAL) in 1979. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 1985 18:22-EST From: Mike.Blackwell@ROVER.RI.CMU.EDU Subject: "Berserker Blue Death" by Fred Saberhagen Well, it looks like Saberhagen has finally realized that he can make big bucks by just putting out more Berserker books. His latest (a Tor trade paperback) is pretty typical of the genre, and I found it to be overall interesting and a compelling read, with a good treatment of other than Earth descended humanity (the Carmpan make a return), and some surprising plot twists. However, I was really disappointed with the ending (the last 5 pages) - it left me feeling a little empty and unfulfilled (much as Domingo must have felt, perhaps...). I don't want to make this a spoiler, but with all of the potential that Fourth Adventurer, the Nebulons, Galway, and Leviathan presented, I think Saberhagen could have done a better job with the ending than "so they rode off in to the sunset and lived happily ever after." Oh well, at does leave hooks for about a billion more Berserker stories. My recommendation is that if you're a hard core Berserker fan, borrow this book (I don't think it was worth seven bucks), or hope it comes out in a cheaper edition. Mike Blackwell The Robotics Institute, Carnegie-Mellon University ------------------------------ Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 06:56:11-CST From: William DeVaughan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #450 RE - Laurence Roberts' question on Wolfe: Bookspeller Dick Spellman has mass market hard copies of Free Live Free at CZARKON in St. Louis and is on the con circuit; catch him almost anywhere. Regards: Bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 85 12:16:10 PST From: Linda Wald Subject: The Castle of the Otter The Castle of the Otter (by Gene Wolfe) is subtitled "a book about The Book of the New Sun". A report in Locus mistakenly said that the fourth book in The Book of the New Sun was to be titled The Castle of the Otter, and Wolfe liked the name enough to write a book to fit. In the book, Wolfe talks about how the tetrology was written, and why it has the form it does. He tells where the poems and all thoses weird words are from, and what they mean. He even has each of the main characters (well, all that were willing to) stand up and tell a joke. I found it delightful to read, for Wolfe has a wicked sense of humor. It is available from the Science Fiction Book Club. If you loved the tetrology , you'll probably enjoy this. If you haven't read the tetrology, go and get The Shadow of the Torturer (it's the first book). Linda Wald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 85 12:32:32 PST From: Linda Wald Subject: Free Live Free I enjoyed Free Live Free (by Gene Wolfe). Some critics have complained that the ending was 'tacked on to make it sf' , but I thought the ending fitted well with the rest of the book. It is true, however, that the only part that qualifies as sf comes at the end, so as a whole the book is barely sf. Don't let that stop you from reading it - the characters and plot are interesting, and the writing is excellent. I expect to put it on my Hugo nomination form. Free Live Free is out in trade hardcover from Tor. If no bookstore in your area has it, A Change of Hobbit (1853 Lincoln Blvd., Santa Monica,Ca 90404) has it in stock (last I checked) and they do mailorders. Linda Wald ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 13 Dec 1985 13:01:35-PST From: brendan%gigi.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (From the terminal of Brendan From: E. Boelke) Subject: Author Request Does anyone out there know the author and titles of the stories that have the following background (I think I've got enuff info) - The main character was named Galleger (sp?) who was an inventor who was the equal of Thomas Alva when drunk. One story had a 'Blue Dynamo' (may have been title) which was a machine sitting in a corner doing nothing. Another story concerned a 'bar' which was activated by an organ style keyboard dispensing the alcohol through a tube. ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: FOR TEXAS AND ZED Date: 12 Dec 85 11:43:00 GMT > From: orstcs!richardt (Richard Threadgill) > I would like to procure a copy of a space opera which I read many > years ago (1980), which was out of print even then. The title of > this rather small paperback was "For Texas and For Zed." [...] > If anyone has any info on this book, please mail me. FOR TEXAS AND ZED was written by Zach Hughes (real name: Hugh Zachary) and published by Popular Library in 1976. I leave the finding of a copy to you. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 85 11:49:54 EST From: Will Martin Subject: SF Radio (Ruby) Re the mention in SF-Digest #452 of the ZBS SF radio series "Ruby", from wood@nermal (at an address I don't think I can mail to): This has been being aired in the St. Louis, MO region on WSIE-FM (88.7 MHz, Edwardsville, IL, Tuesdays at 6:30PM). One of their local announcers mentioned that this series was originally aired some years back as short "filler" items, about 5 minutes each. If you listen to the half-hour format shows, you will hear a lot of repetition and choppiness that bears this out. The short segments were re-edited into longer programs. I do have a specific question: the program schedule from WSIE showed that the first series of this show was to consist of EIGHT half-hour episodes. I have been trying to follow this, and just this week they aired the SIXTH broadcast, which turned out to be a closing or wrap-up show, giving the cast credits, and announcing "Ruby 2" would follow (that is, another series). The description in the printed program guide for the eighth episode matches the contents of this program broadcast as number six, though the dates are, of course, off. So, since WSIE has a history of sloppiness in program scheduling and adherence to published schedules, I naturally figured simply that they just had screwed up again. But my question is -- where? That is, did they get the published program guide wrong, and there really are only six episodes in "Ruby 1"? Or did they just get their tapes mixed up, so that they aired the real eighth episode in place of number six? Since wood@nermal mentioned that he had the "official" set of cassettes of this show bought direct from ZBS, please let us know how many episodes there are in each part of this series, and how many parts there are in all. Thanks much! And as a general comment on SF radio -- yes, it is a good medium for SF. Remember, "on radio the pictures are better!" Regards, Will Martin UUCP/USENET: seismo!brl-bmd!wmartin or ARPA/MILNET: wmartin@almsa-1.ARPA ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 12 Dec 1985 03:23:50-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Star Trek videotapes > From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU (Frank Hollander) > The Star Trek videocassettes have been released in the order in > which they were aired. However, the numbering is based on the > order in which they were produced (and aired in syndication). > Now, a total of 30 have been released, including all from the > first season as well as the first two from the second season ("Who > Mourns..." and "Amok Time"). What's interesting about this is > that the numbering starts with #2 ("The Corbomite Manuever") - an > indication that Paramount intends to release "The Cage" (the first > pilot, not aired - the first episode). I suspect that they are > looking for a copy of it. I have seen a black&white copy that > Gene Roddenberry travels with. A color version may not exist. > Regardless, the market for "The Cage" is large. I believe that I mentioned this back when Paramount released the first set of tapes in the spring. But I should point out that "The Corbomite Maneuver" is #3, as it should be, not #2. "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is #2, as *it* should be. > Question? Did ABC show extra scenes from Star Trek II when they > aired it? If so, what were they? Yes, they did add scenes, though they never advertised the fact on commercials or in TV GUIDE. I didn't tape it since I didn't know until after the fact that scenes were added, so I can't give you a run-down about what was added. It seemed to me when I finally saw a friend's tape that the extra material was pretty inconsequential (as opposed to the added scenes for the first movie). --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: gargoyle!congdon@caip.rutgers.edu (Richard Congdon) Subject: Re: Heinlein, Star Trek, Philip K. Dick Date: 11 Dec 85 16:47:05 GMT >From: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU > interesting about this is that the numbering starts with #2 ("The > Corbomite Manuever") - an indication that Paramount intends to > release "The Cage" (the first pilot, not aired - the first > episode). I suspect that they are looking for a copy of it. I > have seen a black&white copy that Gene Roddenberry travels with. > A color version may not exist. Regardless, the market for "The > Cage" is large. I recently saw Roddenberry here in Chicago. He said that 1) a color print of "The Cage" no longer exists. 2) They do plan to release the pilot eventually, and the blooper film, too! Richard Congdon Univ. of Chicago, Dept. of Education ..ihnp4!gargoyle!paideia!{richard,root} ------------------------------ Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 06:56:11-CST From: William DeVaughan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #450 RE - Roz on immortality: Since the world of ideas is infinite and the world of persons is that large number times the first, how can a lifetime of any length lead to boredom? When they start looking the same to you, expand your point of view and play with the patterns of sameness, if that wears out, move up another level of generality. A true Renaissance Being/Citizen of the Cosmos is incapable of boredom; temporary ennui perhaps, but never boredom. Even boredom is an interesting state of being! Regards: Bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 85 10:53 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Opinionated Male Comments (Warning!) I like the way Anthony Aristar commented on the feminist discussion going on. > Of negative comments there were none... Of support there was > much... I have come away from the discussion feeling that it is > "simply not done", as the British would say, to mention anything > which can be construed as anti-feminist in the good US of A. He also avoided saying anything negative about the whole thing. I should like to put forth this explanation for the lack of bad vibes even though I expect it to burst into flames. This _is_ America; where free speech and your way of life are your rights. and You have never heard flames if haven't heard a burning feminist! I have experience with rampaging feminists, my mother is one. When her and her friends get going, so do I. Out the door and into a realm where I can indulge my adolecent male fantasies to my heart's desire. This is no two way street that I see. Many of these types of people are just as bigoted as their male counterparts. I think people were just trying to avoid a fight. And a nasty one it could be too. Cheers... Jon ------------------------------ Date: Tue 10 Dec 85 06:56:11-CST From: William DeVaughan Subject: Re: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #450 RE - David Albrecht on teaching kids/Feminism & SF: I DO have kids, boys twelve and sixteen, and they KNOW I believe women to be persons and ideas to be unbound by gender (mental, physical, or relational). I don't "teach them convictions" - I show them mine by being as genuine as possible and teach them a critical faculty with which to develop their own convictions, even if (HORRORS) different from my own. Flames/kudos to wdevaughan at stl-host1. Regards: Bill ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Dec 85 1333-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #462 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Dec 85 1333-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #462 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 462 Today's Topics: Books - Adams (2 msgs) & Anderson & Anthony (3 msgs) & Edwards (2 msgs) & Hubbard & Wylie & Four Book Trilogies (2 msgs), Films - Sherlock Holmes, Miscellaneous - Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters (3 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ukc!gcb1@caip.rutgers.edu (G.C.Blair) Subject: Re: Gargle Blaster (actually 4-book Date: 13 Dec 85 12:46:15 GMT >>... the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" trilogy (which has 4 >>books to it - only Douglas Adams would have the chutzpah to do >>this)... > > Four-or-more book "trilogies" are not _nearly_ as uncommon as you > seem to believe..... Hitch-Hiker's is about to fall into the category of "or-more" : a fifth book is in the pipeline, not alas written by DA, but co-written by the original co-writer of the first radio series & someone else. I assume it'll be along similar lines to the current four books. If anyone wants info on the HHGttG fanclub, then mail me here at ukc & I'll let you know anything you want (or so the theory goes), including where you can get your Towel, etc. Replies to ....{seismo,...}!mcvax!ukc!gcb1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 85 19:26 PST From: Brown@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA, David D From: Subject: Re: HGTTH actually 4 books HGTTH didn't start as one book, it started as a radio play that was subsequently turned into the Guide and Restaurant, which were published at about the same time.... Dave Brown USPS: 2305 Douglas #9, Bellingham, Wa. 98225 (206) 647-1312 ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Anderson's Time Patrol series Date: 12 Dec 85 15:33:53 GMT > From: ritcv!krf7527 (Keith Fieldhouse) > I'm looking for a list of Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories. > The two that I've read (which are found in a mass market paperback > book called, I believe, _Time Patrol(men?)_) seemed to indicate > that more stories existed. Also I remember seeing a SF Book Club > book that had other stories but I don't remember what they were. > If anyone knows of others please let me know where I might find > them. The first series of stories about the Time Patrol appeared in the collection GUARDIANS OF TIME. The original edition (Ballantine, 1960) contained the following stories: "Time Patrol" Fantasy & Science Fiction (May 1955) "Brave to Be a King" Fantasy & Science Fiction (Aug 1959) "The Only Game in Town" Fantasy & Science Fiction (Jan 1960) "Delenda Est" Fantasy & Science Fiction (Dec 1955) The revised edition (Tor, 1981) added a fifth story: "Gibraltar Falls" Fantasy & Science Fiction (Oct 1975) And, just to keep things clear, the two stories that make up TIME PATROLMAN never appeared anywhere but in that book. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Swan) Subject: Re: Obscure books (Chthon) Date: 11 Dec 85 16:28:40 GMT ivanlan@ccvaxa.UUCP writes: >is your Chthon by Piers Anthony? if so, it is the same book and my >memory could use updating (tell me about your Chthon...) OK. It is by Piers Anthony, so we are talking about the same book. I consider it one of the better books in my collection, although not everybody might (some of it might be a little dated). ****slight spoiler follows**** It is the same Chthon. The basic story is the life of a man from his early childhood until he becomes a "minion" (pun) of the "God" of the underworld caverns known as Chthon (the prison). It is also the story of his internal conflict between his "normal" self and his "inverted emotional" self, a result of his mixed ancestry: half human and half "minionette". The story is written alternating between his earlier life "outside" and his life in the prison caverns, in such a fashion that each part mirrors the other. For example, the first chapter (I think) starts with the protagonist's introduction into the prison of Chthon, and his almost immediate rejection for being taken with a "minionette". The second harks back to his boyhood, where he first meets the minionette (named "Malice"?), and is warned by father against them. William Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev) Subject: Triple Detente Date: 9 Dec 85 23:23:30 GMT raoul@JPL-VLSI.ARPA writes: >>From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu >>... Also I am looking for his Triple Detente, which I have yet to >>see. Anybody with suggestions where to find these in LA please >>respond. ... >I was also looking for "Triple Detente" long ago but could not find >it. "Triple Detente" was one of Pierce Anthony's more imaginative books. _Daw_ DID publish it. I suspect it's out of print for quite a while. I got mine in a used book store in LA. I DO know that publishing schedules differ between US and UK. Hey, SF&F fans accross the ocean! Have YOU seen it? Oleg Kiselev. ...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ Date: Sun 15 Dec 85 16:19:51-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Chthon There is indeed a book Chthon, by Piers Anthony. It and its sequel, Phthor, were published in the Panther Science Fiction series in the UK, in 1972 and 1978 respectively. The latter is ISBN 0 586 047700. The plots do not feature a dentist. Robert Firth ------------------------------ From: unirot!pooh@caip.rutgers.edu (Pooh) Subject: Re: Kelley Edwards Date: 14 Dec 85 18:53:43 GMT Kelley Edwards happens to be my esteemed daddy, R. Edward Nather (utastro!nather). He only published "Radiation" and "Counterspy," and never got around to finishing a third short story. The REASON he never got around to finishing it is that he discovered this nifty thing called netnews. . . His stories are pretty good, but what he's REALLY good at is beef stroganoff. . . Pooh (Wendy Nather) topaz!unipress!pooh topaz!unirot!pooh ------------------------------ From: utastro!nather@caip.rutgers.edu (Ed Nather) Subject: Re: Kelley Edwards Date: 15 Dec 85 01:40:04 GMT pooh@unirot.UUCP (Pooh) writes: > Kelley Edwards happens to be my esteemed daddy, > R. Edward Nather (utastro!nather). Wendy! Shame on you! I TOLD you -- the check is in the mail. Please don't make up any more hideous stories about me, or I'll make public the little incident concerning you, Mona, the cobra and the chocolate mousse ... Ed Nather Astronomy Dept, U of Texas @ Austin {allegra,ihnp4}!{noao,ut-sally}!utastro!nather nather@astro.UTEXAS.EDU ------------------------------ From: uwai!neves@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth Date: 13 Dec 85 18:10:42 GMT >I found it interesting the author of "Battlefield Earth" is also >the renoun author,L.Ron Hubbard,the father of the Church of >Scientology, who in the early 1950's published the best-seller >"DIANETICS". And the book's plot closely resembles the the >Church's "basic" beliefs, which was recently reveiled in the Los >Angeles Times. Huh? Did you read the book? It is pure space opera, us against the aliens. It has no message at all. If you enjoy SF of the 40's-50's and big books you'll enjoy Battlefield Earth. I didn't get bored reading any of it (that is quite an accomplishment with a 1000+ page book). Of course I had to give up one of my weekends to it. David Neves Computer Sciences Department University of Wisconsin-Madison Usenet: {allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo,uwm-evax}!uwvax!neves Arpanet: neves@uwvax ------------------------------ From: dnichols@ti-csl Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 10 Dec 85 22:08:00 GMT christensen@apollo.uucp >For an interesting slant on this subject, read "The Disappearance." >I don't remember the author's name. It was written about 1950 and >is considered a minor classic. "The Disappearance" was written by Philip Wylie and I seem to remember it being quite good. I read it a long time ago. The story concerns the sudden disappearance of all the women (or is it men?) on earth. *hardcopy* *electr{onic, ic}* Dan Nichols POB 226015 M/S 238 Texas Instruments Inc. Dallas, Texas 75266 ARPA: Dnichols%TI-CSL@CSNet-Relay.ARPA CSNET: Dnichols@Ti-CSL USENET: {ut-sally,convex!smu,texsun,rice}!waltz!dnichols VOICE: (214) 995-6090 ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe Date: 12 Dec 85 03:23:25 GMT Credit where credit is due. It was Isaac Asimov who thought up the "fourth book in the trilogy" joke for his Foundation series, which predates Douglas Adams fourth book, however his publisher Judy Lynn del Rey talked him out of it. RJS in Toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: Four book trilogies Date: 15 Dec 85 08:56:46 GMT Wrong. First, FOUNDATION'S EDGE was originally published by Doubleday, so it wouldn't have been Judy Lynn del Rey that "talked him out of it". Second, I've seen a reproduction (in SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE, August 1982, if you want to look it up) of the original proof for Doubleday's dust jacket for the book that actually said "The fourth book of the Foundation Trilogy" (someone must have realized it was stupid and changed it to "The fourth novel in the Foundation Series" before the book was released). Third, the joke predates FOUNDATION'S EDGE. When Berkley was issuing Eric van Lustbader's Sunset Warrior novels in paperback in 1980, they billed them as "The Sunset Warrior Trilogy". At roughly the same time, Doubleday published a fourth novel and folks jokingly referred to it as "the fourth book in the Sunset Warrior Trilogy". --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Spielberg movies: Bah! Humbug! Date: 12 Dec 85 16:48:00 GMT I know that YOUNG SHERLOCK HOLMES isn't SF except in the very broadddddest sense, but apropos of Spielberg it seems to fit here. Hyper-contrived plots, Slender excuses for so-what special effects, Lack of internal consistency/logic, Characterization approximately 1/10" deep, (except for Holmes, who is maybe 1/2" deep.) Who is this Spielberg character and why do people keep raving about him? His movies are the cinematic equivalent of comic books. Now, I'm not saying that all film should be on the level of Literature (e.g., great Art, of which most attempts are pretentious and borrr-ing), but can't we have at least the equivalent of decently written popular fiction? Truthfully, the film wasn't bad for the first 30 minutes or so, before the Spielberg touch became pronounced. Not only were the special effects nothing special, they were terribly forced, i.e., they did not belong there. And as far as characterization goes, how about the thread of Watson puzzling with the same Holmes riddle all through the movie, when he finally solves it. The riddle? "A man lives in a square hut with four windows facing south. He looks outside and sees the bear. What color is the bear?" I think even an addled 9-year old would get this one at once, rather than struggling for days and days. Spielberg? In the words of Dickens, "Bah! Humbug!" Jim Brunet {ihnp4, decvax}!cca!ima!jimb (most reliable) ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb or jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Orphaned Response Date: 12 Dec 85 06:53:00 GMT gt4395b@gitpyr writes: >I have never managed to make this drink properly. If you have any >success, let me know and I will Hitchhike over to your place to see >what I have been doing wrong. Well, it's almost impossible to get quality Santraginean sea water out here in the backwoods of the galaxy, so a PanGalatic Gargle Blaster is just not something you're ever going to be able to do up properly. However, if your looking for a drink with a similar (although perhaps not as subtle) effect, might I suggest a Moose River Hummer: Mix equal parts Bacardi 151, Peppermint Schnapps, and Galliano in a shot glass, and throw it back. CAUTION: never sip at it, it will only get mad at you and sip back. Make sure you've got a ride home. Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. ima!ism780!dianeh ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!ugthomas@caip.rutgers.edu (Timothy Thomas) Subject: Re: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe Date: 11 Dec 85 23:12:18 GMT > How about a 1985 English version (or a close proximity thereof) to > this "magical" concoction. I, too would like to experience this > wiping out of my frontal lobe. Found this in net.games quite a while ago: Here's a reposting of a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster recipe that appeared in net.cooks about a year ago. We served these at the party, and they were quite popular -- strong, citrusy, and GREEN. This recipe was developed by a friend of mine after taking a mixology course; it has been served to happy hordes at a private party at the last three Boskones. For two mild Pan-Galactic Gargleblasters, put over ice in shaker: 1.5 jiggers golden or dark rum (That Ol' Janx Spirit) .5 jigger Amaretto and .5 triple sec or Curacao (Santraginean water?) juice of 1/3 lemon 1.5 - 2 oz frozen orange juice concentrate shake, strain into glasses with fresh ice, add ginger ale or tonic to suit (bubbled-through Fallian marsh gas). Add a thin wedge of lemon and float a bit of blue Curacao over the top (Qalactin Hypermint Extract). "Olive" is probably one of those flexible terms like "jinnan-tonyx"; if you must have something, use a brandied grape (fill a jar with fresh white grapes; cover with 6 parts (or more) brandy to 1 part powdered sugar; seal and leave for several weeks). I'm not sure what you'd use for xamphuor, but everything else in this matches the recipe from the book. We also call it a Jupiter sunrise when served \\very// quickly; otherwise it turns a green color hideous enough to warn incautious drinkers. I tried this for a party last summer, it was very good. (has this recipe been posted this this newsgroup before? If so, sorry for the reposting) Timothy D. Thomas SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!ugthomas CSnet: ugthomas@buffalo, ARPAnet: ugthomas%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ From: glasgow.glasgow!robertsi@caip.rutgers.edu (Iain Robertson) Subject: PAN GALAGTIC GARGLE BLASTERS Date: 12 Dec 85 13:19:54 GMT Right. How to mix a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster: 1) Take a straight, chilled half-pint glass; 2) Add one measure of blue Curacoa; 3) Add two measures of Vodka; 4) Add one measure of Cointreau; 5) Make up to a half-pint with lemonade; 6) Add crushed ice, lemon, straws, plastic umbrellas etc; 7) Drink -- but very carefully.....; Just the thing for relaxing after a game of Krikket, or to relieve the terrible pain in all the diodes down your left hand side. If anyone else has got any suggestions, improvements or other recipes, pass 'em on ! IAIN ROBERTSON. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 16 Dec 85 1411-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #463 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 16 Dec 85 1411-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #463 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 16 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 463 Today's Topics: Books - November Booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hplabs!faunt@caip.rutgers.edu (Doug Faunt) Subject: November Booklist from The Other Change of Hobbit Date: 16 Dec 85 03:15:36 GMT This is the list of books received in November at The Other Change of Hobbit, in Berkeley, as posted on Scifido, a SF oriented BBS in Oakland at (415)655-0667. Hardcovers and Trade Paperbacks Adams, Douglas THE ORIGINAL HITCHHIKER RADIO SCRIPTS These have the original ending, not the new one for the novels. Allen, Joseph P. with ENTERING SPACE: AN ASTRONAUT'S ODYSSEY Russell Martin Expanded paperback of 1984 hardcover. Both informative and beautiful. Bellairs, John THE REVENGE OF THE WIZARD'S GHOST The fourth Johnny Dixon novel. Gorey dustjacket, frontispiece and map. THE TREASURE OF ALPHEUS WINTERBORN Reprint 1978 hardcover; this second printing retains the Gorey cover. Borges, Jorge Luis ATLAS "in collaboration Translation of 1984 Argentinian with Maria Kodana" hardcover; lots of photographs. Boynton, Sandra CHLOE AND MAUDE Three horribly cute stories for children - highly recommended. Burroughs, William S. EXTERMINATOR! Reprint 1973 hardcover; third printing. Davies, Robertson WHAT'S BRED IN THE BONE New non-SF novel linked to THE REBEL ANGELS by overlapping characters. Garcia Marquez, Gabriel COLLECTED STORIES Reprint of 1984 hardcover. Goswami, Amit and THE COSMIC DANCERS: EXPLORING THE SCIENCE OF Maggie SCIENCE FICTION Nonfiction. Reprint of 1983 hardcover. Foreword by Kate Wilhelm. Hamilton, Virgina THE PEOPLE COULD FLY American Black Folktales with jacket and many gorgeous black and white illustrations by Leo & Diane Dillon. Holdstock, Robert MYTHAGO WOOD First American edition. 1985 World Fantasy Award co-winner. 1984 British Science Fiction Association Award-- Best Novel. ("A Hemingway plot and approach - interesting but very sexist" - Tom) Joels, Kerry Mark THE MARS ONE CREW MANUAL King, Stephen SILVER BULLET Reprint of CYCLE OF THE WEREWOLF, adding King's screenplay and 8 pages of movie stills. Kurtz, Katherine THE KING'S JUSTICE Histories of King Kelson, Vol. II. Macaulay, David BAAA Trade paperback of last month's hardcover. By the author of UNBUILDING, among others. ("All we like sheep ... "). McCaffrey, Anne KILLASHANDRA Sequel to CRYSTAL SINGER. Menville, Douglas & FUTURE VISIONS: THE NEW GOLDEN AGE OF THE R. Reginald SCIENCE FICTION FILM Coffee table size paperback, with many illustrations. Milne, A. A. THE POOH SONG BOOK Reprint 1961 hardcover; music by Fraser-Simon, decorations by (of course) E. H. Shepard. Norton, Andre & MAGIC IN ITHKAR 2 Robert Adams (eds.) Second in this series of shared-world anthologies. O'Donnell, Peter DRAGON'S CLAW Reprint 1978 British hardcover. First American edition of the seventh Modesty Blaise novel. ("Superb spy thriller with a totally inappropriate pornographic cover" - Debbie) Preiss, Byron (ed.) THE PLANETS Anthology of essays and original fiction about each planet. Includes a new Martian Chronicle (!) plus fiction by Benford, Zelazny and more. Preuss, Paul HUMAN ERROR Intelligent computers (with "sloppy disks") and intelligent, well-drawn characters to match. Recommended by Debbie. Shay, Don (ed.) MAKING GHOSTBUSTERS Packed with stills, storyboards, shooting script and anecdotes. Snyder, Zilpha Keatley BLAIR'S NIGHTMARE Reprint 1984 hardcover. Tiptree, James Jr. BYTE BEAUTIFUL: 8 SCIENCE FICTION STORIES All but one in previous Tiptree collections (new introduction by Michael Bishop, however). Vallejo, Boris FANTASY ART TECHNIQUES Lots of people like his work; maybe they want to see how he does it. Wellman, Manly Wade THE SCHOOL OF DARKNESS A new John Thunstone (not Silver John) novel. Williams, Tad TAILCHASER'S SONG A first novel. ("WATERSHIP DOWN with cats" - Dave) Wilson, Gahan GAHAN WILSON'S AMERICA Some cartoons, some text, on the subject of the U.S.A. Winter, Douglas E. FACES OF FEAR Interviews with horror writers (including King, of course). Wolfe, Gene FREE LIVE FREE First trade edition - completely reedited from the Ziesing Bros. text, partly due to editorial intervention. ("Brilliant characterization and mischievous wordplay make this zany, surreal novel a delight." - Jan) Also recommended by Debbie. Mass Market Paperbacks Aldiss, Brian W. STARSWARM Reprint 1964 collection, adding one more story. Anderson, Poul MERCENARIES OF TOMORROW (Creator), Reprint anthology. M.H. Greenberg & C. G. Waugh (eds.) Anderson, Poul A MIDSUMMER TEMPEST Reprint 1974 hardcover. New cover. Anthony, Piers EXECUTIVE Bio of a Space Tyrant Volume 4. Asprin, Robert & MIRROR FRIEND, MIRROR FOE George Takei Reprint 1979 paperback. Now from Ace. Ballard, J. G. THE BEST SHORT STORIES OF J. G. BALLARD Reprint 1978 hardcover. First mass market paperback. Baxter, Lorna THE EGGCHILD Reprint 1979 hardcover. Illustrated by Charles Vess. Bradley, Marion Zimmer FREE AMAZONS OF DARKOVER (ed.) Like the other two collections (THE KEEPER'S PRICE and SWORD OF CHAOS), this contains two stories by MZB herself. Brown, Fredric HOMICIDE SANITARIUM Reprint 1984 specialty press hardcover; previously unreprinted mystery short stories from the pulps. Recommended by Debbie and Tom. (Bulmer, Kenneth) OMENS OF KREGEN Dray Prescott: 36. They've even dropped the author's pseudonym! Busby, F. M. ALL THESE EARTHS Reprint 1978 paperback; now from Bantam. ("Great time travel paradoxes. Recommended." - Debbie) Caidin, Martin KILLER STATION Reprint of 1984 hardcover, apparently. Chalker, Jack L. BIRTH OF FLUX AND ANCHOR Prequel to the Soul Rider trilogy (although designated SOUL RIDER BOOK 4). ("... it was not my intention to write this book at all." - the author's Prefatory Note) Cooper, Louise THE INITIATE Book I in the Time Master trilogy; stunning Robert Gould cover. ("A customer reports this is a rewrite of LORD OF NO TIME, but I can't find my copy to check. Anybody know for sure?" - Tom) Daley, Brian JINX ON A TERRAN INHERITANCE Sequel to REQUIEM FOR A RULER OF WORLDS. Dickson, Gordon STEEL BROTHER Almost an exact duplication of DICKSON! the LACon II souvenir volume still available from NESFA Press. (Otherwise, contains mostly unreprinted stories and the now outdated "Childe Cycle Status Report.") Friedman, Michael Jan THE SEEKERS AND THE SWORD Sequel to THE HAMMER AND THE HORN. Goldman, William THE SILENT GONDOLIERS Reprint of the 1983 hardcover by "S. Morgenstern." Related to THE PRINCESS BRIDE. Very thin, excessively expensive per page. Hawke, Simon THE NAUTILUS SANCTION Fifth (and latest) Time Wars novel. Kilworth, Gary SPLIT SECOND First American edition; reprint of 1979 British hardcover. Kurland, Michael & THE LAST PRESIDENT S. W. Barton Reprint 1980 hardcover. Roman a clef about the Nixon presidency. ("Who'd have thought we'd ever be nostalgic for Watergate? An entertaining time trip." - Debbie) Lem, Stanislaw THE FUTUROLOGICAL CONGRESS Reprint of 1984 hardcover translation; 1981 Polish original. L'Engle, Madeleine A HOUSE LIKE A LOTUS Reprint of 1984 hardcover. She continues to bring her series together - in this one, Polly O'Keefe meets Zachary Grey. Longyear, Barry B. & ENEMY MINE David Gerrold Novelization of the Edward Khmara screenplay based on Longyear's novelette. The film opens this month. McEvoy, Seth NOT QUITE HUMAN #3: A BUG IN THE SYSTEM McIntyre, Vonda N. THE EXILE WAITING Reprint of her 1975 first novel, very slightly revised from the British (and previously best) text. Recommended by Debbie, Dave and Tom. McKinley, Robin (ed.) IMAGINARY LANDS Original anthology featuring many of the best modern fantasy writers. Superb stories by Hodgell, Dickinson, McKillip, Westall and more. Highly recommended by all of us. McQuay, Mike ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK Reprint of 1981 movie novelization with new non-movie related cover. Mitchell, Elizabeth AFTER THE FLAMES (ed.) Alien Stars Volume II. Novelettes by Silverberg, Spinrad and Kube-McDowell. ("The Spinrad is hilariously funny, and the other two are worth reading as well." - Debbie) Monaco, Richard JOURNEY TO THE FLAME Mujica Lainez, Manuel THE WANDERING UNICORN Reprint 1983 hardcover translation; 1965 Spanish original. Norton, Andre HERE ABIDE MONSTERS Reprint 1973 hardcover; second paperback edition. OPERATION TIME SEARCH Reprint 1967 hardcover; third paperback edition. Okrand, Marc THE KLINGON DICTIONARY Complete with grammar. Palmer, David R. THRESHOLD ("A bad mix of GLORY ROAD and DEATHWORLD with a steal from Doc Smith and overtones of kiddie porn." - Tom) Pournelle, Jerry RED DRAGON Reprint 1971 non-sf thriller by "Wade Curtis." Sequel to RED HEROIN. Resnick, Michael EROS DESCENDING Tales of the Velvet Comet #3. Rucker, Rudy MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME Reprint of 1984 hardcover. ("The two wackiest inventors since Gallagher and Joe. Lots of fun!" - Debbie) Salsitz, R. A. V. WHERE DRAGONS LIE Shea, Michael IN YANA, THE TOUCH OF UNDYING Shupp, Mike WITH FATE CONSPIRE Book One (of four) of The Destiny Makers. Stasheff, Christopher THE WARLOCK ENRAGED Fifth and latest Gramarye saga; nice Hickman cover. Tepper, Sheri S. MARIANNE, THE MAGUS AND THE MANTICORE Her first contemporary fantasy. Recommended by Tom, Debbie and Jan. Vinge, Joan D. SANTA CLAUS THE MOVIE [the book] Based on screenplay by David Newman. Wollheim, Donald A. WOLLHEIM'S WORLD'S BEST SF SERIES 9 (ed.) Formerly titled THE 1980 ANNUAL WORLD'S BEST SF. ....!hplabs!faunt faunt%hplabs@csnet-relay.ARPA ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 19 Dec 85 0851-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #464 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Dec 85 0851-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #464 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 464 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Effinger & Ellison & Gibson & Hubbard & Mono Sex Societies & Story Request Answers (4 msgs) & Book Request, Films - Young Sherlock Holmes, Miscellaneous - Criticism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: utrc-2at!davidh@caip.rutgers.edu (David M Haynes) Subject: Multi-book trilogies Date: 12 Dec 85 13:31:20 GMT In multi-book trilogies (ie: trilogies with more than three books) Piers Anthony must take the prize for the Xanth trilogies (8 books). For the record: A Spell for Chameleon The Source of Magic Castle Roogna Centaur Aisle Ogre, Ogre Night Mare Dragon on a Pedestal Crewel Lye: A Caustic Yarn david ------------------------------ From: mcb@k.cs.cmu.edu (Michael Browne) Subject: Re: Opinionated Male Comments (Warning!) Date: 15 Dec 85 18:38:34 GMT >From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA >This is no two way street that I see. Many of these types of >people are just as bigoted as their male counterparts. > >I think people were just trying to avoid a fight. And a nasty one >it could be too. Cheers... This sort of reminds me of George Alec Effinger's short story "All of the Last Wars at Once". It begins with a press conference at which a white and a black announce a 30 day race war as a "Final Solution". After a few days, the feminists publish a manifesto and declare war on men. As the month goes on, more and more groups publish leaflets and declare war: Catholics vs. Protestants, Young vs. Old, Republican vs. Democrat, and left-handed vs. right-handed. I won't give away the ending, but I thought that it was a good story. This post should probably win some sort of award for "Most Unrelated Followup". ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE Date: 14 Dec 85 15:51:23 GMT As a professional writer, I abhor censorship. However, there is a great difference between censorship and maintaining some level of good taste, especially in a collaborative medium like television. True, Harlan was the writer in question, but producer De Guere, actor Asner, whoever they selected as director, and the programming mavens at CBS all would have had to live with the fact that the terrifying thought that Santa did not like black and hispanic children would have been put in some children's minds. Even if the resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the mere asking of the question may have been inappropriate to ask in prime time. Consider, for instance, an episode from actor/director/child star Jackie Cooper's autobiography. A director wanting boy-actor Jackie to cry his heart out on camera told Cooper that his pet dog had just been killed. Cooper did indeed cry to the director's satisfaction. Afterwards, the director revealed it had all been a "harmless" joke and Jackie's dog was fine. The question: was it (either Ellison's raising the question of whether St. Nick likes visible minorities or the director's suggesting the dog was dead) justifiable? Or are some ideas, especially those relating to and (given TZ's timeslot) targetted at children, best left unspoken? Ellsion has walked off virtually every long-term commitment he has ever had and bitched about virtually every short-term media project that has ever come to fruition. It was predictable that he would leave TZ in a huff. It was only a matter of time. I, too, think he has a wonderful way with the English language, but he is hardly irreplacable. C'est la vie. RJS in Toronto Posted c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ From: grady@ingres.ARPA (Steven Grady) Subject: William Gibson novel in IAsfm Date: 13 Dec 85 20:06:42 GMT A quote from the current (Dec 85) issue of IAsfm: Our January issue will feature the start of IAsfm's first-ever novel serialization, and for this special occasion we have picked a special novel by a special new writer, Willam Gibson's _Count_Zero_. Last year Gibson's remarkable first novel _Neuromancer_ won the Hugo, the Nebula, and the Philip K. Dick award, and was one of the most critically acclaimed and widely talked about debut novels in more than a decade. _Count_Zero_ is likely to stir up even more excitement this year. A fast-paced and hard-edged tale of corporate warfare and computer piracy, set against the decadent high-tech underworld of the future and in the eerie hallucinatory expanses of "cyperspace," _Count_Zero is sure to be one of the major novels of 1986. Catch an early look at it here, beginning in January. Sounds kind of interesting, although rather similar to _Neuromancer_.. Steven ------------------------------ From: ut-dillo!darin@caip.rutgers.edu (Darin Adler) Subject: Re: Battlefield Earth Date: 14 Dec 85 07:41:41 GMT >>I found it interesting the author of "Battlefield Earth" is also >>the renowned author,L.Ron Hubbard,the father of the Church of >>Scientology, who in the early 1950's published the best-seller >>"DIANETICS". And the book's plot closely resembles the the >>Church's "basic" beliefs, which was recently revealed in the Los >>Angeles Times. > >Huh? Did you read the book? It is pure space opera, us against >the aliens. It has no message at all. If you enjoy SF of the >40's-50's and big books you'll enjoy Battlefield Earth. I didn't >get bored reading any of it (that is quite an accomplishment with a >1000+ page book). Of course I had to give up one of my weekends to >it. I have not read _Battlefield_Earth_, but if you take a look at the Los Angeles Times article, you will find that it claims that the basic beliefs of the Church of Scientology are exactly what one might call "pure space opera". (Something about an invasion of earth or some such thing.) Darin Adler {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,seismo}!ut-sally!ut-dillo!darin ------------------------------ From: pyrnj!romain@caip.rutgers.edu (Romain Kang) Subject: Re: mono sex societies Date: 15 Dec 85 04:22:03 GMT > A while ago, I read a short story -- wish I could find it again -- > based on a society of all males. They were humans; their > ancestors had been in a space disaster that had stranded them > without women on some previously uninhabited planet. The > survivors of the disaster had cloning technology that they used > for domestic animals, and they adapted the technology to > themselves. The society had become primitive, and no longer > understood their own reproduction, but were able to maintain and > utilize the cloning machinery their ancestors had set up. A > pretty interesting story was placed in this society. Does this > sound familiar to anyone? This sounds like an episode out of the (rightfully) forgotten "Starlost" TV series. (Oops, I had to remember it...) In their journeys through the ark, Devin, Garth, and Rachel come across a society in one dome where there are only men, who reproduce as you describe, only they could have constructed a XX chromosome pair if they wanted to. The arrival of a female (Rachel) fulfills a sort of prophecy, which the society's dictator seizes as a way to rule unchallenged for the remainder of his life; normally, whoever can defeat the leader in single combat gets the job. However, before he can marry Rachel, Devin (whom he has sentenced to death) challenges him. You can guess the rest... Romain Kang, Pyramid Technology Corporation US Mail: 900 Route 9, Woodbridge, NJ 07095 Ma Bell: (201) 750-2626 UUCPnet: {allegra,cmcl2,pyramid,topaz}!pyrnj!romain ------------------------------ Date: Sun 15 Dec 85 16:24:49-EST From: FIRTH@TL-20B.ARPA Subject: Pyramid Power The book where Atlantis is destroyed by Pyramid Power is Siva! by (I think) J & L Richmond I found it fairly badly written, but maybe I'm prejudiced against loose plots. Incidentally, although the power source described in the book may seem utterly crazy, none other than Nicola Tesla believed in its possibility, and worked on it for several years. [Hence the belief by the scientific/occult fringe that he was secretly done away with by the big power utilities!] Robert Firth ------------------------------ Date: 0 0 00:00:00 CDT From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" Subject: story request answers The Gallegher stories are by Anthony Boucher and some (perhaps all, I don't know) appear in the delightful collection _The_Compleat_Werewolf_. marty moore (mooremj@eglin-vax.arpa) ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: re: author request--gallegher stories Date: 16 Dec 85 03:41:00 GMT oh, sure. Henry Kuttner. All the stories were collected in *The Proud Robot*. The inventor was 'Galloway Gallegher.' The proud robot was like the glass cat in the Oz books: "see my pretty pink brains? wanta see 'em work?" I have a british paperback, containing these stories: The Proud Robot Gallegher Plus The World is Mine Ex Machina Time Locker A note on the copyright page says 'originally published in the United States under the title "Robots Have no Tails."' ------------------------------ From: mjc@cad.cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio) Subject: Re: Author Request (Gallegher stories) Date: 15 Dec 85 20:11:45 GMT The author of the Gallegher stories (about an inventor who is very good when drunk) is Henry Kuttner. A bunch of the stories were collected in "The Proud Robot". My copy is a British edition from Hamlyn Paperbacks; there is an American edition called "Robots Have No Tails" under the name Lewis Padgett. Dragon UUCP: ...seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-cad!mjc or ...ucbvax!dual!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg [Moderator's Note: Long time readers will remember that this topic was discussed in depth last year. I'd like to thank the following people who submitted the same information: Joel B Levin (levin@bbncc2.ARPA) Richard Currier (mplvax!rec@caip.rutgers.edu) Franklin Reynolds (ihpn4!inmet!frankr) ] ------------------------------ From: muddcs!rracine@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Racine) Subject: Help! I need to know!! Date: 13 Dec 85 04:06:47 GMT This is another I need to know about book which has haunted me for a few years now. It's an old book which was reprinted in a series of old time classics under Lynn Carter, who wrote the introduction. The authors last name started with an H. ( Hamiltion ??) The book is almost morbid, taking place very far in the future. The hero dreams his way there, I think. All of humanity has taken refuge in a large pyramid of light and only a few hundred remain with fewer almost daily. Outside of the pyramid is evil in various incarnations. I distinctly remember one was "HE-WHO-WATCHES-IN THE NORTH" in the shape of a huge crouching monstrosity which never moved, yet constantly drew closer and closer. There are other capitalized evils in the east, west, ect... as well as other smaller evils which roamed freely. Absolutely everything was dark in the book, no sun at all, the entire atmosphere was something straight out of Edger Allen Poe. There is also a constant reference to a sanctuary somewhere else on the earth. The hero left the pyramid to search out this santuary. He is near death, in view of the place, with pursurers right behind him when the book ends. Lynn Carter writes a little epilogue saying to wait for the second book to soon be reprinted. I have never seen it and you can imagine why I would. It was far and away the best sci-fi book I have ever read from the so called golden age of sci-fi. It was well written and way ahead of it's time. When I think about it I am reminded of Vances future earth stories and some of Ellison's dark work in his "Death Bird Stories". I wish I could remember some more details. This is a tough one. Does anyone out there remember it? Ray Racine ------------------------------ From: ut-dillo!darin@caip.rutgers.edu (Darin Adler) Subject: Re: Spielberg movies: Bah! Humbug! Date: 14 Dec 85 07:36:48 GMT A small (microscopic) microscopic point: > The riddle? "A man lives in a square hut with four windows facing > south. He looks outside and sees the bear. What color is the > bear?" I think even an addled 9-year old would get this one at > once, rather than struggling for days and days. Actually the riddle was worded a bit more difficultly. The riddle was: "A man looks out of his hut -- out the north southern window. He sees a bear. What color is the bear?" (This is just from memory, maybe someone has the novelization?) I was quite pleasantly suprised by _Young_Sherlock_Holmes_. Although I must agree with many of the comments about the "Spielberg touches", I am happy that the special effects, etc., were good enough to attract large audiences to this film. Otherwise I would have certainly been deprived of one of the few *good* portrayals of Sherlock Holmes on screen. The young version presented in this film is a refreshing change from Basil Rathbone in the black and white Holmes films (which I am not particularly fond of). For a kiddie, special-effect, movie, there was remarkable care in presenting characters as Doyle described them. (Well, I also liked the "glass man". :-) Darin Adler {gatech,harvard,ihnp4,seismo}!ut-sally!ut-dillo!darin ------------------------------ From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan) Subject: Re: Query about reviews/criticism Date: 13 Dec 85 03:12:44 GMT Having a joint B.A. degree in Fine Arts and English, I fear I've spent a great deal of time reviewing creations -- and reviewers. Reviewing is an art, it really is, and few people do it well. But the major gist is: Most reviewers see what they expect to see. And then they go on, in great detail, often, to prove to others that what they saw was actually in the work. I wonder if Shakespeare really intended such a fascinating mosaic of meaning scholars have attributed him with. I would think such works would be entirely too self-conscious to read. (Note T.S.Elliot's *The Wasteland* -- which I actually think is a practical joke on reviewers/critics.) I recall a quote from somewhere: "Those that can't create, review." Or something along those lines. I believe the statement is a bit too general and too harsh (though sometimes applicable). But there is a real risk in reviewing to slip away from the work into a private world of (often) propaganda. The review, in effect, becomes, as is said in music, a fantasy on a theme. Every reviewer should remember, no matter how hard he/she tries to be objective, that he/she is stating an opinion. His/Her opinion. Rather than saying, this book is trash (even if it is), say, 'It is my opinion that this book is trash, and here is why...'. After all, one man's dross is another's treasure. Case in point -- Zelazany's *Lord of Light*. It makes the all time top ten of a good friend's reading list, but my husband (the one who reads during t.v. commercials)(and usally through the programs, too) has never been able to finish it. Does this make a qualitative judgement against *Lord of Light*? No, for both responses are a matter of personal taste. You may enjoy High Opera. I can't manage much heavier than Gilbert and Sullivan. But I don't discount Wagner as junk. Well, I have gone on too long. (I know, never apologize -- I'm sorry.) [:-)] But remember, ye reviewers with criticism on your keyboards, your opinion, though valid, is by no means universal. And, like everything I've here writ -- may be totally wrong. Adieu -- and Happy Holidays! Barb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 19 Dec 85 0909-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #465 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Dec 85 0909-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #465 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 465 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Dick & Ellison & Enemy Mine & Story Request Answered & A Book Request, Films - Warriors of the Wind, Miscellaneous - Feminism & World Design & A Christmas Poem ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hpfcla!mpm@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Obscure books (Chthon) Date: 7 Dec 85 21:53:00 GMT You are indeed describing "Prosthro Plus" by Piers Anthony. If you can find a copy of the book (maybe in used book stores), by all means buy it. It is quite funny. Along with that, it shows how a rather naive and unsophisticated inhabitant of a backwater planet like Terra can rise above his "betters". All this occurred before Anthony began his more recent humor style. (E.g. A Spell for Chameleon, etc.) Another, similarly humorous book is "Triple Detente" published by DAW. Mike McCarthy (ihnp4|hplabs)!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ From: tim@k.cs.cmu.edu (Tim Maroney) Subject: Re: PKD discussions... Date: 12 Dec 85 21:39:29 GMT There is an excellent write-up of Phillip K. Dick's "odd religious notions" in the first issue of Gnosis, a new magazine on Western spirituality. It's a full-color, slick-paper quarterly, very nicely done, but rather under-distributed now. I picked up my copy in a San Francisco occult bookstore; if there is interest, I'll send the address of the magazine. (I'm at work now, so I don't have it handy.) Tim Maroney CMU Center for Art and Technology tim@k.cs.cmu.edu uucp: {seismo,decwrl,ucbvax,etc.}!k.cs.cmu.edu!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_aset@caip.rutgers.edu (Sue Trowbridge) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE Date: 16 Dec 85 23:47:06 GMT > Ellsion has walked off virtually every long-term commitment he has > ever had and bitched about virtually every short-term media > project that has ever come to fruition. It was predictable that > he would leave TZ in a huff. It was only a matter of time. I, > too, think he has a wonderful way with the English language, but > he is hardly irreplacable. C'est la vie. > > RJS in Toronto I have been an Ellison fan for quite some time now and have read nearly every book he's published (short stories, essays, etc.) -- no mean feat. However, I have been disappointed by the new TZ series. (WARNING -- spoilers ahead) For one thing, it's not really true to the spirit of the old show. In Serling's zone, the good were always rewarded and the bad were always punished. This has hardly been the case on the new TZ -- i.e., the boy who was killed for being too intelligent, the harried housewife who stopped time with a nuclear bomb in the air, trapped forever or doomed. Granted, not every old TZ was a morality play -- perhaps the most famous episode of all, "Time Enough at Last," was a sad story where a kind old man's "best-laid plans" were ruined. But so many TZs featured baddies getting poetic justice. The new TZ seems to have forgotten this. Some of the new TZs have been so stupid and sentimental that it's a wonder that crusty old Harlan was involved, such as last Friday's about a woman brought back from the past to save a scientist's marriage. I really did expect more from Ellison. But the "Shatterday" episode proved that his works function much better as stories than as visuals. I think print is the best medium for him; besides, it's a solitary art rather than a collaborative one, and Ellison doesn't seem to be Mr. Congeniality. Hard to believe the man who wrote two books entitled _The_Glass_Teat_ could get a job in tv in the first place. Ellisonmaniacs, and anyone interested in a good argument, should check out his latest volume of essays, _An_ Edge_In_My_Voice_. Reading it was lots more fun than watching any episode of the TZ. Sue Trowbridge allegra!umcp-cs!aplvax..... decvax!decuac!aplvax..... ------------------------------ Subject: Emeny Mine Date: 16 Dec 85 15:41:44 PST (Mon) From: Dave Godwin Well, now that I've heard the plot to the novel, which presumably is the plot to the movie, I can pretty much decide, sight unseen, to avoid this movie. The original story was a novella in IASFM, and is just about the best think Barry Longyear ever wrote. It looks as if he had to bash and wreck that piece of work to get it on the screen. ( flame on ! ) In my humble opinion, never in sf has there been a case of good book being made into good movie, just good book into celluloid drivel. This will almost certainly be another case. ( No, I don't mean 2001; it came sort of with the movie, not before. ) I am getting very tired of watching good work trashed for the screen. ( flame off ) If you folks wanna rant-and-rave at me, do it to sf-lovers, not to me. We can all scream about it there. Dave Godwin University of California, Irving ------------------------------ Date: 17 Dec 85 13:20:26 CST (Tuesday) From: FINCH.dlos@Xerox.ARPA Subject: STORY SEARCH Cc: Slocum@HI-MULTICS.ARPA >My fiancee is trying to find out the title and author of a book she >read about 10 years ago. She remembers that it was like an ACE >Double, novella in length and flip the book over. The book you are talking about is indeed an ace double and it happens to be one of my favorite stories. The title is "The Lost Millenium", by Walt and Leigh Richmond. They called the pyramid power a Solar Tap. These Solar Taps were perfectly safe unless they were at one of the poles where an "avalanche effect" could start. That's what happened to the old civilization. The "avalanche effect" caused the earth to speed up it's rotation. I don't remember it all. I guess I'll have to go back and read it again. Jim Finch ------------------------------ From: hpfcla!mpm@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Request for Book Info Date: 14 Dec 85 01:26:00 GMT I, too, would like to tap into the wisdom of the net and determine the title of a book I read long ago. Thanks in advance for any pointers. The book in question is a collection of three novellas (or extended short stories). The unifying theme for the collection is of societies with alternate economic systems (that is, alternate to what we are used to). In one story, all payments are in terms of "obs" (short for "obligations"). Whenever somebody does something for you, you incur an "ob" to them. You can repay them by providing a service of their request. What with the "transitive" passing on of "obs" things can get very complicated. (I don't remember the plot.) In another story, payment is always based on gambling. If you eat in a restaurant, you might end up paying double or nothing for the meal based on a coin toss. Thanks to the laws of probability, everything is supposed to work out fairly over time. The people in this society develop a great deal of expertise in statistics and probability theory. This comes in handy when some nasty aliens invade their system. (The natives use their expertise to set up one-man raids via teleporting scout ships that allow them to UNPREDICTABLY pop up and attack the alien's ships.) I don't remember anything about the third story. (I'm sure there were three though.) I read this some time during the mid to late 1960's when I was reading hundreds of books a year. (The local library couldn't borrow science-fiction fast enough for me!) Mike McCarthy (ihnp4|hplabs)!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 85 09:59:14 est From: Joe Turner Subject: Home Video Review WARRIORS OF THE WIND Running time: 95min Rated: PG New World Video The darling of 1984, NAUSICAA - IN THE VALLEY OF THE WIND, is now out on home video in the U.S. This film was a smash in Japan, sweeping up every award it could, and doing the same in Europe. It won the award for Best Animated Feature Over 1/2-Hour at the Internation Animation Festival in Los Angeles. It was rumoured that a small sleazoid company was dubbing it, and making it up as they go along. Untrue, at the least! The film deals with an interesting premise: WW3 was here and gone, and it took most of civilisation with it. There is a high tech level, but only large powers have it. Two nasty groups who have WW2 military strength have been fighting, and the inhabitants of the Valley of the Wind have been caught strategically in between them. Now one of the powers is rumoured to possess one of the "fire demons" that started the war. The princess of the Valley, Xandra, takes it upon herself to try and stop the fighting. The ending is strange... very strange. There are decent characterisations (although Xandra has been accused of being too perfect), the voices are fine, and the editing has been minimal (all the original violence was left in), from 110 minutes to 95 minutes. No storyline was lost in the translation. They also kept the original music. It is for sale or rent in most video stores. Rating (-5 to 5+): 4+ joe turner (cutter@umb.csnet) ------------------------------ Date: Mon 16 Dec 85 14:25:30-CST From: Anthony Aristar Subject: Feminism & SF: Comments from Brett Slocum >I think that anti-feminist feelings are not often expressed because >many SF & fantasy readers are among the enlightened on this topic. Alas, Brett, I don't believe this. I've met too many sf-lovers who were "chauvinists," as they are so charmingly called, and "chauvinistic" SF is so popular that it must be doing something for someone. Larry Niven's writing is a good example here: strong female characters occur, but they're strong in ways which don't contradict traditional concepts of maleness and femaleness. Teela of the Ringworld Series is *lucky*, not good at swinging a battle-ax. Only when she metamorphosizes into a protector, with a dramatically enhanced body and altered psychology, does physical violence become her forte. So therefore, my earlier question remains unanswered: what exactly was it that stopped this darker side of fandom from showing its hairy, macho face? >In regards to the woman vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen what >a 5' 6" martial artist can do against a group of the most awesome >brawlers with weapons? I have, and I treat them with respect (male >or female). The Martial arts I know something about: I was involved with them for about ten years at an earlier stage of my life. I have only these comments. A Martial Arts contest is far more like ballet or gymnastics than a real fight. For obvious reasons (e.g. you'd decimate the MA community) you aren't allowed to land real blows. You're judged on things like speed, technique, etc, and since women tend to be quicker and more supple than men, they do pretty well. But the best kept secret in the field is this: none of this matters in real violence unless you have the reach to get past your opponent's defence, and even very scientifically placed blows need to contain a considerable degree of force to be effective against a powerful, aggressive opponent. The only real fight I've ever seen between a martial-arts trained woman and an untrained but aggressive man was resolved in a brutish but effective manner -- he used his hands to keep her away, (she hurt him quite a bit, incidentally, in the meantime), then he grappled her, and fell on her. The only woman I can conceive of winning such a fight would be some kind of androgyne. So my earlier comment stands: SF with women eminently successful at violence is (do I dare use this word here?) fantasy. ------------------------------ To: king%kestrel@lbl-rtsg.arpa Subject: Re: sunset, ... sunrise [world design service] issue 452 Date: 16 Dec 85 12:34:29 PST (Mon) From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa >From: king@kestrel (Dick King) >As I understand it, a rapidly rotating nonsolid object forms a >DISC, not a FOOTBALL. A perfect fluid, rotating without any external perturbations, would indeed form a disk-shaped object if it rotated fast enough. If you added even more energy, it would even form a TORUS, which is a very interesting object that I have studied for a few years. Unfortunately, neither the disk nor the torus is stable - the disk goes asymetrical and elongates into a football, while the torus breaks up into droplets which eventually coalesce into a double star. The best reference for this subject is "Hydrodynamics", by Sir Horace Lamb, first published in 1881 and still in print! >Why not a double star in close, fast orbit? The world rotates >quite slowly, and one star sets due to its own motion as the other >rises. That would work just as well as the football. The problem with both solutions is getting the star (or stars) to rotate (or orbit) fast enough. We're talking about a quarter rotation in ~ten minutes, while our own sun takes seven hours to go through that same 90 degrees. I'm sure it can be worked out, but you won't get a "normal" star system. Maybe a pair of white dwarfs would work, with the planet only a million km away. Jef ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 85 09:40 pst From: "pugh jon%e.mfenet"@LLL-MFE.ARPA Subject: Reprinted w/o permission from a several year old Omni The Night Before Christmas, 2001 by David A. Tarr Twas the night before Christmas, and all through my home Not a creature was stirring, not even my clone. The test tubes were hung by the burner with care, In hopes that Saint Nicholas soon would be there. The androids were nestled all snug in their beds, While visions of mc**2 danced in their heads. My wife in her jumpsuit, and I in my vest, Had just settled down to some drug-induced rest. When, out by the labs, there arose such a clatter, My bed woke me up to see what was the matter. Away to the window I hastened my mass, Tore open the blast shields, and threw up the glass. The refraction of moonlight through smog-ridden air Gave a luster of midday to everything there. When what to my bionic eyes should appear But a mass-driven sleigh with some strange landing gear, With a quick little pilot, a company man, Who did what was asked and followed the plan. More rapid than phantoms his coursers they came. He impulsed his crew, then called them by name. "Now, Redox! Now, Hewlett! Now, Quasar and Photon! "On, Laser! On, Xerox! On, Pulsar and Proton! "To the top of the dome, by the air-intake vent. "Now dash away quickly before our fuel's spent." So, up to the air vent his coursers they flew, With a craft full of toys and Saint Nicholas, too. And then, in a flash, on the dome I did hear The scratching and scraping of stout landing gear. I steadied my blaster, my chest to the ground, And then, through the air vent, he came with a bound. He was dressed in a three-piece he'd rented near here. (Why purchase an outfit you wear once a year?) A life-support system he wore on his back, While the toys for the 'droids he took out of his pack. A bottle of synthroid he held in his hand (He was quite overweight from a poor thyroid gland). He brought out the toys that department stores sell; The elves at the Pole could not make them as well. He checked with the base ship, while doing his work, And filled all the test tubes, then turned with a jerk. His anti-grav belt was secure, I suppose, And, pressing the keys, up the air vent he rose. He sprang to his craft, to the crew gave a shout; The ship heaved a shudder, then blasted them out. But I heard him exclaim, as he flew out of sight, "Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good flight." ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 19 Dec 85 0939-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #466 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 19 Dec 85 0939-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #466 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 19 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 466 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Brust (2 msgs) & Byers & Dean & Feist & Gibson & Longyear & Malamud & Manguel & Morris & Simak & Book Request & SF Bestsellers, Films - Books into Films, Television - Star Trek (2 msgs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hpfcla!mpm@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blaster recipe Date: 15 Dec 85 01:55:00 GMT I think that Piers Anthony wins hands-down in this particular chutzpah contest. At last count, he had written SEVEN books in the Xanth trilogy. (So far his "Bio of a Space Tyrant" is a trilogy, but will it stay that way? Also, I think there are five books in the series that contains "Thousandstar" and "Viscous Circle". Did he ever call that one a trilogy?) Mike McCarthy ...(ihnp4|hplabs)!hpfcla!mpm ------------------------------ From: watdcsu!mnelling@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Ellingham [C and O]) Subject: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 16 Dec 85 21:30:14 GMT I just picked up a copy of Steven Brust's latest novel, "Brokedown Palace." It's published by Ace. The printing date inside says January 1986. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but here's what the blurb on the back says: "Once upon a time there were four brothers who ruled the land of Fenario: King Laszlo, a good man - though perhaps a little mad; Prince Andre, a clever man - though perhaps a little shallow; Prince Vilmos, a strong man - though perhaps a little stupid; Prince Miklos, the youngest brother, perhaps a little - no, a lot - stubborn. "Once upon a time there were four brothers - and a goddess, a wizard, an enigmatic talking stallion, a very hungry dragon - and a crumbling Brokedown Palace on the banks of the River of Faerie ..." Just thought I'd let all the SKZB fans out there know. This sounds like it might be a lot of fun to read. Mark Ellingham (...{ihnp4|decvax|utzoo}!watmath!watdcsu!mnelling) ------------------------------ From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 18 Dec 85 22:32:26 GMT mnelling@watdcsu.UUCP (Mark Ellingham[C and O]) writes: > [...] here's what the blurb on the back says: [...] > Prince Andre, a clever man - though perhaps a little shallow; That is indeed what the cover says; but it should say Andor, not Andre. Alas, proofreading! Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE LONG FORGETTING by Edward Byers Date: 16 Dec 85 23:04:51 GMT THE LONG FORGETTING by Edward A. Byers Baen, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Once more, Baen Books takes an interesting premise (a "fugue" in space that causes the loss of all memory and higher brain functions) and throws it away. Instead of spending time showing how mankind regained his former glory, surely the most interesting story, Byers tells us of the discovery of some religious documents that, if revealed, will completely change the way people look at their beliefs. Irving Wallace did the same thing with THE WORD and he didn't need science fiction to do it. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 85 21:07 CST From: "David S. Cargo" Subject: Second Dean book The second part of Pamela Dean's story of the Secret Country is due for release in July of '86 (which may really mean June). She is now also under contract for the third and concluding volume (no publication date set yet). David S. Cargo (Cargo at HI-Multics) ------------------------------ From: ptsfb!djl@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Lampe) Subject: Magician: Apprentice Date: 18 Dec 85 03:02:47 GMT Magician: Apprentice by Raymond E. Feist If you liked Tolkien you will like this series. If you like stories of ordinary people forced to fight against great evil, you will like this series. This book is apparently the first of a tetralogy set in a feudal world where magic works. The hero, Pug, is an orphan being raised in the castler of the local lord. As the book opens the time is approaching when Pug, and other boys his age, must be apprenticed to a craftsmaster for training in the occupation chosen for them. As is obvious from the title, Pug is chosen by the lord's magician. As in any Tolkienesque (is that a word ?) fantasy, there are dwarves, elves and dragons. But this is a book that stands on its own. I did not get the same feeling of a direct ripoff of Tolkien that I got from the Shannara trilogy. As in "The Lord of the Rings" the story does get confusing at times with several different substories occurring at once. There is one major difference between this book and TLoR, the enemy here is not painted in an unrelieved black as Sauron is. I hope that the society of invaders, who bear a strong resemblance to Samurai, is explored further in the following books. In case it wasn't obvious from the first paragraph, I strongly recommend this book for anyone who likes heroic fantasy. Dave Lampe @ Pacific Bell {ucbvax,and,zehntel,ihnp4,cbosgd}!dual!ptsfa!ptsfb!djl (415) 823-2404 ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: William Gibson novel in IAsfm Date: 16 Dec 85 20:15:24 GMT > A quote from the current (Dec 85) issue of IAsfm: > Our January issue will feature the start of IAsfm's first-ever > novel serialization, and for this special occasion we have > picked a special novel by a special new writer, Willam Gibson's > _Count_Zero_. > Sounds kind of interesting, although rather similar to > _Neuromancer_.. It is similar to Neuromancer, because it is placed in the same universe. I've read the first segment, and I'm quite impressed. As a sendoff to Gardner as new editor, I can only hope that this is the kind of stuff he'll publish in the future (as opposed to the cute and cuddly stuff IA tends to publish). I'll bet that Shawna bought it before she left. I'm not normally a fan of serials, but if this is their way of telling us the kind of stuff they want to publish in the future, I'm all for it... Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ From: ccvaxa!ivanlan@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Enemy Mine Date: 16 Dec 85 03:02:00 GMT re: enemy mine (A "movie" based on an original story by Barry Longyear; maybe you knew that already, but you didn't mention it, so I thought I would) I was afraid they would do that. I guess it's inevitable, though, considering. Longyear should never have sold Hollywood the rights to the story, for which he won a Hugo (and possibly Nebula? I can't remember). One of the things I liked best about the story was the lack of melodrama and coincidence. Looks like that's all that Hollywood left in ... Ivan Van Laningham ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: GOD'S GRACE by Bernard Malamud Date: 16 Dec 85 23:05:50 GMT GOD'S GRACE by Bernard Malamud Avon, 1982 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This novel provides an interesting counter-point to David Brin's "uplift" stories. Described as "the only survivors of the nuclear holocaust are a Jew and his chimp," this novel examines Sam's attempts to "raise" the chimpanzee (and others who appear) to the level of human beings. The results are, shall we say, less encouraging than Brin would want us to believe. Scientific accuracy isn't Malamud's strong point, but this is religious fantasy, not science fiction. Most people would find this too depressing, but post-holocaust completists may want to read it anyway. Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: BLACK WATER editted by Alberto Manguel Date: 16 Dec 85 23:03:29 GMT BLACK WATER edited by Alberto Manguel Picador, 1983 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper This is an excellent anthology of "fantastic" stories from all over the world. Unlike most anthologies published in this country, it is not slanted toward American or British authors, but has a wide assortment of Latin American, European, and Asian authors. These aren't science fiction stories. Most aren't horror stories in the usually accepted sense, though some are horrific in nature. The closest common appellation would be fantasy, though if you're expecting unicorns and elves, look elsewhere. Run, do not walk, to your nearest bookstore to get this one! Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!ecl@caip.rutgers.edu (e.c.leeper) Subject: THE FORTY-MINUTE WAR by J. & C. Morris Date: 16 Dec 85 23:02:09 GMT THE FORTY-MINUTE WAR by Janet and Chris Morris Baen, 1985 A book review by Evelyn C. Leeper Like so many Baen Books these days, this is basically not a science- fiction story. The "40-Minute War" of the title provides the rationale for some very straightforward CIA/spy-type stuff, and the ending indicates that the authors didn't really have an ending. Talk about deus ex machina! Evelyn C. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!ecl ------------------------------ From: sigma!bill@caip.rutgers.edu (Bill Swan) Subject: Re: Way Station.... Date: 16 Dec 85 20:32:42 GMT postmaster@CSNET-SH.ARPA writes: >[...]an unusual situation regarding the book "Way Station" by >Clifford Simak in the book club edition. Specifically, this >person's spouse who normally had non-SF tastes in their reading >picked up this book and could not put it down until they had >finished. [...] Now I recall this book. I thought it wasn't bad, >but it also wasn't spectacular. [...] Does anyone have any >explanation for this? It depends heavily on your tastes (plural intentional) in literature. While Simak's older books, like _Way Station_ treat certain topics (such as alien beings) in ways that look clumsy to readers of the current styles of science fiction, there is an element to his writing in those books that I really enjoy. Sad to say, I have not found quite the same "charm" in his later writings, but the earlier books hold a special place in my permanent collection (if quantity counts, my bookshelves and floors support only some 500 books, but I have given away well over a thousand in the past two decades). I see nothing contradictory in seeing a person who has been stereotyped as to their choice of reading finding enjoyment in a different writing. My wife, who has a Master's in French Literature is currently enjoying Le Guin's _Left Hand of Darkness_. William Swan {ihnp4,decvax,allegra,...}!uw-beaver!tikal!sigma!bill ------------------------------ From: reed!ellen@caip.rutgers.edu (Ellen Eades) Subject: Title Wanted - Kids' Book Date: 17 Dec 85 00:54:01 GMT I'm looking for the title of a book I read years ago back in the Pasadena public library (ah, the good ol'days); was about a group of kids living in a computer-run community underground and their discovery of people living on the surface. All the underground people were bald (I think the surface dwellers still had head hair), transportation was similar to slidewalks. I particularly recall the protagonist of the story dialing up a drink at supper by requesting "Hot, sweet, and red." Send mail please. Thanks, Ellen tektronix!reed!ellen ------------------------------ Date: Wed 18 Dec 85 16:37:16-PST From: Steve Dennett Subject: SF Bestsellers Something I've often wondered about, but never found the facts on on, is the question "What science fiction books have really been the long term favorites, as measured by actual sales rather than awards?" Locus publishes montly bestseller lists, but these don't contain actual numbers, so there's no way to total them up for a given time period. So, I'm wondering if anyone out there could point me toward a source for a listing of the best-selling science fiction books of the last ten or twenty years with actual (or estimated) totals for copies sold (not $ amounts), or any information along those lines. Thanks for the help! Steve Dennett dennett@sri-nic.arpa ------------------------------ From: sun!chuq@caip.rutgers.edu (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine] Date: 17 Dec 85 06:12:10 GMT > From: Dave Godwin > In my humble opinion, never in sf has there been a case of good > book being made into good movie, just good book into celluloid > drivel. This will almost certainly be another case. ( No, I > don't mean 2001; it came sort of with the movie, not before. ) I > am getting very tired of watching good work trashed for the > screen. Well, this seems like a good time to flame back. How about "A Boy and His Dog" (hugo, 1976) or "Dr. Strangelove" (hugo, 1965) or "Secret of NIMH" (1983?). You should NEVER use the word never, since it just prompts people to find exceptions... (Hmm, I smell a straight line in there somewhere...). If I thought about it, I could probably come up with a few more, but three is enough to throw out a 'never' argument... Now, IN GENERAL I agree with you -- a movie made of a 'name' book tends towards mediocrity. This isn't an indictment of SF movies, though. Look at movies in general, and they do the same to ANY book -- the bigger then name on the title page, the less thought goes into making the film because they have a guaranteed draw. Just look at ANY Stephen King film. If you can. If, on the other hand, you take an original theme or an original derivation of a famous theme you have to work at the story to make it go. This is why films like "Sleeper", "Young Frankenstein", "Time After Time", "The Last Starfigher" and "Star Wars" worked. They needed a good story and a good movie to succeed, since they couldn't get people to come see it any other way... 2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want to add new nominations? (never and always are always dangerous words -- never use them!) Chuq Von Rospach sun!chuq@decwrl.DEC.COM {hplabs,ihnp4,nsc,pyramid}!sun!chuq ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Dec 85 15:26 PST From: Wahl.ES@Xerox.ARPA Subject: ST videocassettes Cc: hollande@dewey.udel.EDU Frank Hollander's information about the ST videocassettes was not correct: they are not being released in original aired order, but in production order with gliches. Not all first season episodes have been released yet, however two second season ones (the first two in production order) are out. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed 18 Dec 85 11:50:53-PST From: Lynn Gold Subject: Star Trek Blooper Reel Video Yesteryear sells it, along with the Laugh-In blooper reel. I forget the price, but you could send for their catalog. Lynn ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 Dec 85 1105-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #467 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Dec 85 1105-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #467 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 467 Today's Topics: Books - Asimov & Brust & Simak & Slonczewski & Stasheff, Films - Young Sherlock Holmes, Miscellaneous - World Design & Feminism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: ROBOTS AND EMPIRE by Isaac Asimov (slight spoiler) Date: 17 Dec 85 21:58:53 GMT The inside jacket reads: [First paragraph skipped -- mainly hype] "Two hundred years have passed since THE ROBOTS OF DAWN and Elijah Baley, the beloved hero of the Earthpeople, is dead. The future of the Universe is at a crossroads. Though the forces of the sinister Spacers are weakened, Dr. Kelden Amadiro has never forgotten -- or forgiven -- his humiliating defeat at the hands of Elijah. Now, with vengeance burning in his heart, he is more determined than ever to bring about the total annihilation of the planet Earth. But Amadiro has not counted on the equally determined Lady Gladia. Devoted to Elijah Baley, the Auroran beauty has taken up the legacy of her fallen lover, vowing to stop the Spacers at any cost. With her two robot companions, Daneel and Giskard, she prepares to set into motion a daring and dangerous plan...a plan whose success -- or failure -- will forever seal the fate of Earth and all who live there." [Last paragraph skipped -- also hype] I'm not sure that the person who wrote the above summary really read the book. First, Gladia is a Solarian, not an Auroran. Second, the people of Earth don't hold Baley in particular reverence: the Settlers do. And Gladia doesn't...well, this is only supposed to be a mild spoiler, so I won't say more. I may be in a minority, but I didn't care for THE ROBOTS OF DAWN. I found it to be very boring. It's the first SF book by Asimov that I didn't like. From reading the above description, I had trepidations about starting ROBOTS AND EMPIRE. I'm happy to report that my fears were unfounded. The action takes place in the pre-Foundation era. Baley's hope that some people from Earth would settle new worlds has been achieved. The main characters are Gladia, Daneel, Giskard, Amadiro, and two newcomers, one a coworker with Amadiro, the other a Settler and descendant of Elijah Baley. Daneel and Giskard really have the center stage, though. I found the book to have two very interesting ideas about the Laws of Robotics, but I won't give away what they are. In general, things moved quickly; in fact, there were a few places in which I couldn't force myself to put the book down until I found out what happened next. I give this book 3.5 stars (very, very good). Duane Morse ..!noao!terak|anasazi!duane or ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: ewan@uw-june (Ewan Tempero) Subject: _Brokedown Palace_ by Steven Brust Date: 17 Dec 85 00:25:27 GMT Brust's latest book is now out. Put out by.....the same people that put out the rest of his books. About the same size as his previous books. Opinion: If you liked his previous books, you will like this one. This comment is based on the fact that I liked both his previous ones and this one. Rating: I don't believe in ratings but for those that do I guess I would give it 4 on a scale -4 to 4. This means I enjoyed it and will definitely read it a number of times ( as opposed to I enjoyed it and probably won't read it again except when I'm bored, or, I didn't enjoy it that much but will probably read it again 'cos it helps to pass the time.... ) Recommendation: READ IT! One thing that is obvious is a lot of time and thought went in to this and makes the book very enjoyable. A comment on the cover ( or maybe the first inside page ) goes something like "I didn't know where he was taking me but I enjoyed going". This sums up the way I felt. Most of the questions you would like answered are answered by the end of the book although there are certainly some that are *not* answered. The impression I got was that this is a slice out of the history and everything you need to know is given but not much more. Maybe this is just me, I'll have to read it again. However this impression is not displeasing. "I don't understand" "Never mind" :-) Plot Summary ( Potential slight spoiler but how can you give a plot summary without a spoiler? Most of this can be got from the cover ) Tells the story of a palace that's fallen down literally around the ears of the inhabitants ( no surprizes here :-) In particular, it focuses on the youngest of 4 sons. His eldest brother,who is now King ( due to the Palace ), is a ....little unhappy with the state of the Palace and when the youngest ( I've forgotten his name and don't have the book ) comments on said state, he is beaten and forced to flee. This action will eventually lead to the youngest son destroying the old Palace to make way for the new. In fact, it seems that the youngest son never really has any free will in doing this, even though he makes the decision to do so... More Serious Spoilers about the Universe in which this Story is based. It seems to be the same as in Jhereg and Yendi as jheregs are mentioned numerous times but only as predators circling in the distance. Devera makes a couple of minor appearances *in person*. This suggests that maybe it's after the time of Jhereg and Yendi except....well read the book. We are given no more clues as to what she's about. Nor does her appearance seem that important to the story. I guess Steve will tell us in good time. Ewan Tempero UUCP: ...!uw-beaver!uw-june!ewan ARPA: ewan@washington.ARPA ------------------------------ From: copper!tomp@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Pereira) Subject: Re: Way Station.... Date: 16 Dec 85 21:15:11 GMT >From: Nick Simicich >...regarding the book "Way Station" by Clifford Simak >...Specifically, this person's spouse who normally had non-SF >tastes in their reading picked up this book and could not put it >down until they had finished. This is a favorite of mine, one that I've had for many years and although I have frequently recommended it to *my* spouse she has never even picked it up! I doubt very much that it has been impregnated with any substances "Way Station" (in my opinion) *is* a good story in its own right! Tom Pereira Tektronix Inc. P.O. Box 4600, Mail Station 92-635 Beaverton, Oregon 97075-4600 Phone: 503-629-1232 ...!decvax!tektronix!copper!tomp ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: mono sex society/feminism/jacket blu Date: 17 Dec 85 16:42:00 GMT For those interested in mono sex societies, feminism, or bad jacket blurbs, the following is excerpted from the SF Book Club's 2/86 (!) Bulletin announcing selections. The book in question is Joan Slonczewski's A DOOR INTO OCEAN, the main selection for the month. "Bernice is caught between two worlds. Born into one of the leading aristocratic trading families of Valedon, she'd grown up on its ocean-covered sister world and moon, Shora. There, the pacifist all-female society of the Sharers flourishes on living rafts shaped by the same deft bio-engineering that permits reproduction. And there, amid Shora's communality and gentle anarchy, its honesty and ecological sensitivity, Benice has found all the things she missed in the profit and power-centered hierarchy of Valedon. .... The invasion comes...but on a world where the very concept of war is completely non-existent, among a people with no acknowledged leader, whom can an army fight and conqueor? With whom can a general treat for peace?" Gee, next we'll have The Care Bears Go Galactic. Seriously, though, if the book lives up (?) to its description, it's the kind of thing that can give feminism a bad name. Jim Brunet {ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb or jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa ^ this asterisk is necessary! ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 85 08:34:33 PST (Thursday) Subject: The Warlock Enraged From: Dewing.osbunorth@Xerox.ARPA THE WARLOCK ENRAGED by Christopher Stasheff This is a book for those who have read all the others, maybe. The reason to read this one is because you read the others. Why? Amusing aspects found in earlier novels almost non existent. Slow. To use his powers Rod has to become enraged. A portion of the book is about how he tries to control it. Dull, was expecting better after having read previous novels. Overall ratings on series 0-10: The Warlock Inspite of Himself 10 King Kobold 4 King Kobold Revised 6 The Warlock Unlocked 8 Escape Velocity (prequel) 7 The Warlock Enraged 4 ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Spielberg movies: Bah! Humbug! Date: 17 Dec 85 16:27:00 GMT >Actually the riddle was worded a bit more difficultly. The riddle >was: "A man looks out of his hut -- out the north southern window. >He sees a bear. What color is the bear?" (This is just from >memory, maybe someone has the novelization?) My apologies; I believe you're correct. >... I am happy that the special effects, etc., were good enough to >attract large audiences to this film. Otherwise I would have >certainly been deprived of one of the few *good* portrayals of >Sherlock Holmes on screen. Must everything be sugar-coated with special effects to draw an audience? Can't a provocative idea (in this case, SH as a young man) be combined with tight writing, good acting, and imaginative directing to draw an audience that raves about the movie? Or have both the audiences and the movie makers simply become too damned lazy? These are, I realize, rhetorical questions. Any rhetorical answers? >The young version presented in this film is a refreshing change >from Basil Rathbone in the black and white Holmes films (which I am >not particularly fond of). For a kiddie, special-effect, movie, >there was remarkable care in presenting characters as Doyle >described them. I agree that a change from Rathbone is interesting. The "Mystery" series on PBS ran six episodes of SH mysteries using a different, interesting (and acerbic) Holmes and a stunning Watson -- no buffoon -- but entirely believable. I guess the crux of the matter is indicated in your phrase "For a kiddie, special-effect movie...." Damn it, I wish, oh, I wish for movies to be written up to the adults for kids to see, not down to the kids for adults to see. The problem is not limited to Spielberg or SF, but the striking difference between potential and achievement makes it all the more bitter. >(Well, I also liked the "glass man". :-) **** minor plot spoiler follows, then end of message. **** If you mean the glass man special-effect, I agree. It was the one most consistent with the plot. It was also the most original. Certainly more believable as a hallucination than the reality of an ornate Egyptian temple concealed within a London warehouse. Jim Brunet {ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb or jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: sci!daver@caip.rutgers.edu (Dave Rickel) Subject: Re: sunset, ... sunrise [world design service] issue 452 Date: 17 Dec 85 00:09:20 GMT Doesn't a similar situation occur on Mercury? Due to the eccentricity of the orbit and the length of the day, the sun will appear to make a loop on its way across the sky. So if you are situated in the right place, the sun will set, rise, and set again. Giving credit where it's due, this comes from an Isaac Asimov essay (probably from F&SF). david rickel ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: Feminism & SF: Comments from Brett Slocum Date: 17 Dec 85 16:32:44 GMT >From: Anthony Aristar > ... Larry Niven's writing is a good example here: strong female >characters occur, but they're strong in ways which don't contradict >traditional concepts of maleness and femaleness. Teela of the >Ringworld Series is *lucky*, not good at swinging a battle-ax. >Only when she metamorphosizes into a protector, with a dramatically >enhanced body and altered psychology, does physical violence become >her forte. I don't think this example applies -- I can't think of a SINGLE EXAMPLE in any of Niven's writing where *any* of the lead characters are good at swinging a battle-ax. So what if Teela can't either? It tells us that Niven doesn't much care for characters who get ahead by swinging a battle-ax. Should he therefore write one who is female just to satisfy you that he isn't a chauvinist? Feh. >So therefore, my earlier question remains unanswered: what exactly >was it that stopped this darker side of fandom from showing its >hairy, macho face? My suspicion is that it is social pressure. An interesting point about this: the only people I've ever known who would admit to being John Norman fans at a con (this after *gasp* like 12 years of active fandom) are women. My hypothesis is that this is because the males who read the things don't have the nerve to admit it -- unless the only people who read them and go to conventions are women, which seems the weaker hypothesis. And by the way, watch it with the sexist references: you've implicitly associated the "darker side of fandom" with the male sex alone -- men are the only persons who commonly have hairy faces. >>In regards to the woman vs. Goliath combat, have you ever seen >>what a 5' 6" martial artist can do against a group of the most >>awesome brawlers with weapons? I have, and I treat them with >>respect (male or female). > >.... A Martial Arts contest is far more like ballet or gymnastics >than a real fight. For obvious reasons (e.g. you'd decimate the MA >community) you aren't allowed to land real blows. You're judged on >things like speed, technique, etc, and since women tend to be >quicker and more supple than men, they do pretty well. >.... >The only real fight I've ever seen between a martial-arts trained >woman and an untrained but aggressive man was resolved in a brutish >but effective manner -- he used his hands to keep her away, (she >hurt him quite a bit, incidentally, in the meantime), then he >grappled her, and fell on her. Then, as you say, her training was gotten in a dancing class. This is a real problem with martial arts in general -- you can teach the student the moves, but will it work for real. Luckily, most martial arts training results in being able to avoid the fight entirely. But it *is* likely that this occurred because she was unwilling to take the chance of damaging the guy -- afraid to hurt him. This *is* probably due to the fact that she was a woman, but on a social level rather than physical. >So my earlier comment stands: SF with women eminently successful at >violence is (do I dare use this word here?) fantasy. And I've watched a 5 ft 4 in male Shotokan expert fight an untrained but aggressive fellow a foot taller (and with greater reach) and whup him in three count them three blows. I've also fought kumite with a brown belt who was my height (6'3") and an extremely alluring red-headed woman. But I never noticed 'cause I was usually getting knocked on my ass. And I can tell you from near certain knowledge -- she was not an androgyne. Are you seriously contending that women can't win fights against bigger men as a result of fighting skill? Would you say the same thing about smaller males? It just doesn't wash. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 20 Dec 85 1138-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #468 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 20 Dec 85 1138-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #468 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 20 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 468 Today's Topics: Books - Brust (2 msgs) & Geston & Wolfe & Multi-book Trilogies & Starlost & Author Request, Films - Warriors of the Wind, Radio - Ruby, Television - Star Trek, Miscellaneous - Criticism & More Drinks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cbdkc1!gwe@caip.rutgers.edu ( George Erhart x4021 CB 3D288 WDS ) Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 17 Dec 85 12:52:00 GMT I read this book this past weekend and found it to be delightful reading, however it is interesting to note that the back cover has a prince Andre listed with the character's name in the book is prince Andor. I always love to see how much the publisher pays attention to the fine details. I was also glad to see that the price of this book was kept reasonable, I really hate to pay more then $3.50 for a paperback. George Erhart at AT&T Bell Laboratories Columbus, Ohio 614-860-4021 {ihnp4,cbosgd}!cbdkc1!gwe ------------------------------ From: duke!crm@caip.rutgers.edu (Charlie Martin) Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 18 Dec 85 14:21:07 GMT This is the novel that SKZB was talking about some months ago that is more-or-less set in Hungary. Charlie Martin (...mcnc!duke!crm) ------------------------------ From: cstvax!br@caip.rutgers.edu (Brian Ritchie) Subject: Mark S. Geston Date: 18 Dec 85 17:18:46 GMT Many years ago, I borrowed two (or maybe three) books by Mark S. Geston from my (small) home town's (very small) library, and rather enjoyed his sombre little tales. "Out of the Mouth of the Dragon" (which may be an approximation to the real title) pleased me most. It is set in a post-Armageddon world where everyone is wishing the Universe would hurry up and end properly instead of lingering on in a grey half-life, and follows the life of a boy who goes off to fight in yet another War To End All. MSG also wrote a book about a generations-long attempt by a nation to build a spaceship to remove the entire population to another planet, with struggles amongst various factions favouring or opposing the plan. This sounds rather like a hum-drum standard plot, but as with the Dragon book, the world is a strange place: beyond the mountains lies another nation, which these people never see or communicate with, yet we are given the impression that their purpose is malign. Nothing more is told of this other nation, but its darkness casts a shadow over the entire novel, and hearkens back to my own childhood fears of unknown places. Furthermore, the ending is far from standard (or seemed so to me at that time), and has stuck in my mind ever since. Unfortunately, the same has not happened with the title; perhaps because it was something dead boring like "The Rocket"...? There may have been another book whose theme was vampire-like, but I'm not entirely sure. The point of all this is that I'd like to know if Mark S. Geston has writtem anything else, and whether or not he still writes. Of course, proper titles for the above books (plus publishing details(*)) would be nice as well. Brian Ritchie. (*) The folk in the Edinburgh SF Bookshop told me that his work was out of print, but they didn't say whether or not more was forthcoming. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 19 Dec 1985 06:54:38-PST From: roberts%tron.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Nigel Roberts) Subject: Castle of the Otter Does anyone know if a paperback (trade or otherwise) exists of this book. I'd dearly love to get hold of a copy, but have had no luck at all over here. British bookstores tend to say if it's not on their lists then they can't get it!. Thanks in advance for your help. Nigel ROBERTS%TRON.DEC@decwrl.ARPA ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: Multi-book trilogies Date: 18 Dec 85 02:18:37 GMT Actually there is already a word already for "multi-book trilogies." They are called "series". Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: scgvaxd!bob@caip.rutgers.edu (Bob Guernsey) Subject: Re: Starlost... a novel? Date: 18 Dec 85 18:49:55 GMT Was that series off of one of Harlan Ellisons books? I seem to remember a book about an ark of globes. The author left the end of the book open and I was never able to find the rest of the books. Does anybody out there know if they exist? If so please respond with the titles and where I can find them. Thanks, Bob Guernsey ------------------------------ Subject: "Nerve", by whom? Date: 19 Dec 85 22:25:58 PST (Thu) From: Alastair Milne Yet another request, this time for author: Quite a time ago, I read a very good book called "Nerve", about a doctor (name, I think, of Adam McKinley) who developed an especially fast neurotransmitter, and proceeded to experiment on himself with it. The effect was to increase considerably his reaction speed (though with unpleasant side-effects that only became apparent over time). He would use his improved reactions to challenge the ranking pro's of some sport where reaction time was key (such as ping-pong), and rake in the winnings, intending to finance a neuroscience research institute with them. To make it interesting, I believe the first sport he tried was boxing. The coach to whom he went naturally told him to forget it: he wasn't physically trained, and could easily be killed in the ring with a pro. Persuading the coach to let him have a brief demo round with a pro who was instructed to take it easy on him, Adam showed how he intended to survive: he was fast enough to dodge or deflect any punch thrown at him, and, though he wasn't especially strong, his own punches were extremely fast. (Those who protest that pro boxing is a lot more than just being fast enough are quite right, and as I recall, McKinley found that out the hard way.) The author, I'm positive, is a physician, which helped the story greatly: its medical aspects were very accurate, which is important when you know enough about biology and medicine to have inaccuracy spoil a story for you. However, the believability of the rest of the story, which so often suffers as technical accuracy improves, was equally good. A very good read, and I recommend it. But I'm blessed if I can remember who the author is. I'm certain it's not A. J. Cronin, who has written several medical novels. Sound familiar to anybody? Thanks a lot, Alastair Milne ------------------------------ From: sdcrdcf!markb@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Biggar) Subject: Re: Home Video Review Date: 18 Dec 85 18:05:39 GMT cutter%umass-boston.csnet@CSNET-RELAY.ARPA writes: >There are decent characterisations (although Xandra has been >accused of being too perfect), the voices are fine, and the editing >has been minimal (all the original violence was left in), from 110 >minutes to 95 minutes. No storyline was lost in the translation. >They also kept the original music. It is for sale or rent in most >video stores. What do you mean that no storyline was left out? The whole explanation of why Xandra (I much prefered the name NAUSICAA) thought she could do any thing to prevent the war was left out. The cut material shows that Xandra can telepathically communicate with the giant bugs. Mark Biggar {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,akgua,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!markb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 85 16:01:45 EST From: Will Martin Subject: SF Radio - Ruby (answer) It turns out I can answer my own question about the SF Radio series "Ruby" from ZBS Studios. I wanted to know if there really were eight or only six half-hour episodes in the currently-being-broadcast half-hour-shows version. Well, after seeing my query on SF-Lovers, Rich Zellich, who works at this agency, told me he had the tapes, and loaned them to me! There are four tapes, each with from 15 to 20 short segments. This would work out to eight half-hour shows. So the local station just messed up the sequence in which they were being broadcast. (By the way, if any St. Louis area people are trying to find WSIE to listen to these, they are not on the air right now. They went off the air to do some antenna work last week, and I just talked to someone there who says they have run into problems and won't be on the air again until after New Year's. They'll pick up the drama series where they left off.) Regards, and happy holidays! Will ------------------------------ Date: Thu 19 Dec 85 11:11:30-EST From: Wang Zeep Subject: Star Trek on video You know, they could colorize "The Cage." It wouldn't be hard as they have some scenes in color. They could also computer-enhance the blooper reel. I've seen it and it could really be cleaned up. My only complaint about the ST episodes on videotape is that I would appreciate 2 or 3 on a cartridge. I hate having to buy new shelves to store them. wz ------------------------------ From: ISM780B!jimb@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: More: Criticism and Reviews Date: 17 Dec 85 17:51:00 GMT barb@oliven writes: >Having a joint B.A. degree in Fine Arts and English, I fear I've >spent a great deal of time reviewing creations -- and reviewers. >Reviewing is an art, it really is, and few people do it well. But >the major gist is: Most reviewers see what they expect to see. Umm, certainly valid in some cases. I had to fight my expectations when I read ROBOTS AND EMPIRE. In the other direction, I had to fight the expectations I had when I read PRACTICE EFFECT after STARTIDE. I can only speak for myself though. I would hope that most reviewers/critics maintained enough intellectual honesty to accept each work fresh, on its own merits, but I concede that I may be unreasonably optimistic. >And then they go on, in great detail, often, to prove to others >that what they saw was actually in the work. I wonder if >Shakespeare really intended such a fascinating mosaic of meaning >scholars have attributed him with. I agree. Part of the problem in reviewing a work though, is to accept it for its own intentions. For a reviewer to not be in sympathy with a work's intentions is one thing; I accept it if it's acknowledged up front. Where it gets sticky is in trying to establish what a work is trying to do; you can't (I don't belive) judge the movies STAR WARS and 2001 by the same standards because their intents are different. Judging intent is tricky, but necessary. >I would think such works would be entirely too self-conscious to >read. (Note T.S.Elliot's *The Wasteland* -- which I actually think >is a practical joke on reviewers/critics.) True. On the other hand, even an author might not be conscious of all the intents working in a story/character/scene, so both writing and reading can proceed without self-conciousness. I once wrote a story opened with a intellectually/emotionally frustrated adolescent prince looking out a balcony window, observing a servant sweeping a courtyard below. One of the comments I got was that the physical isolation between prince and servant mirrored the psychological isolation very well. This hadn't occured to me, and yet it was absolutely true. (It was the wrong point-of-entry for the story, but that's a different matter.) >I recall a quote from somewhere: "Those that can't create, review." >Or something along those lines. I believe the statement is a bit >too general and too harsh (though sometimes applicable). I'll agree with your uncertainty. It does seem that, on one hand, one can't review adequately unless one understands the writing process from the inside. On the other hand, a review by an unsuccessful writer is suspect to envy and jealousy if it's a negative review, or ass-kissing if it's a positive review. In either event, the audience/author can ask, "Who is *s/he* to criticize the work?" A review by a peer, a seasoned pro, is even more suspect to charges of jealousy/favoritism. >But there is a real risk in reviewing to slip away from the work >into a private world of (often) propaganda. The review, in effect, >becomes, as is said in music, a fantasy on a theme. Amen. >Every reviewer should remember, no matter how hard he/she tries to >be objective, that he/she is stating an opinion. His/Her opinion. >Rather than saying, this book is trash (even if it is), say, 'It is >my opinion that this book is trash, and here is why...'. After >all, one man's dross is another's treasure. No dispute. That's why I'm a lot more comfortable with reviews that give readers a context/basis for the reviewer's belief. If readers agree with the context/basis, then they can have confidence in a review; if not, the review can be ignored. >Case in point -- Zelazany's *Lord of Light*. It makes the all time >top ten of a good friend's reading list, but my husband (the one >who reads during t.v. commercials)(and usally through the programs, >too) has never been able to finish it. Does this make a >qualitative judgement against *Lord of Light*? No, for both >responses are a matter of personal taste. > >You may enjoy High Opera. I can't manage much heavier than Gilbert >and Sullivan. But I don't discount Wagner as junk. I'm with you on the opera, on both counts. This reflects one of my pet themes, that Good Art is not synonomous with Good Read, or whatever. There are more or less agreed upon esthetic standards for determining good art -- though the standards stand up only as long as no one tries to define them too closely, and they do change with time and culture. Very few people (I think) would argue that a Spiderman comic book is superior to FINNEGAN'S WAKE, but relatively few people will read FW instead of the comic book. FW meets high artistic standards, whether you like it or not is irrelevant. >Well, I have gone on too long. (I know, never apologize -- I'm >sorry.) [:-)] But remember, ye reviewers with criticism on your >keyboards, your opinion, though valid, is by no means universal. >And, like everything I've here writ -- may be totally wrong. Ditto. Jim Brunet {ihnp4, decvax}!ima!jimb ucbvax!ucla-cs!ism780!jimb ihnp4!vortex!ism780!jimb or jimb at ima/*cca-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 85 16:17:27 est From: markl@BORAX.LCS.MIT.EDU (Mark L. Lambert) Subject: pan-galactic gargle blaster >Right. How to mix a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster: > > 1) Take a straight, chilled half-pint glass; > 2) Add one measure of blue Curacoa; > 3) Add two measures of Vodka; > 4) Add one measure of Cointreau; > 5) Make up to a half-pint with lemonade; > 6) Add crushed ice, lemon, straws, plastic umbrellas etc; > 7) Drink -- but very carefully.....; > > Just the thing for relaxing after a game of Krikket, or to > relieve the terrible pain in all the diodes down your left hand > side. If anyone else has got any suggestions, improvements or > other recipes, pass 'em on ! This also goes by the name "Blue Lagoon" (an innocent name for a deadly concoction). Here's MY nomination for a PGGB, which also goes by the name "Suffering Bastard"... 1) 1 oz Bacardi 151 rum 2) 2 oz amber rum 3) 2 oz light rum 4) 1 oz triple sec (no sense wasting Cointreau on this...) 5) spoonful brown sugar 6) pineapple juice and OJ to fill 16oz glass 7) juice of a lemon 8) Wedge of cucumber (for the purist) 9) shake, pour in tall glass over crushed ice, add little tutti-frutti parasols, tiki-stirrers, etc... from the bar at YoYodyne, Inc., Cambridge, MA... Mark Lambert ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Dec 85 0845-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #469 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Dec 85 0845-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #469 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 469 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Naguel & Footfall & Requests Answered (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Books into Movies & Change & Aliens & Immortality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: Wanted: Pangalactic Gargle Blast Date: 19 Dec 85 18:55:00 GMT Piers Anthony did indeed have the trilogy called the Kirlian Quest trilogy. However, Thousandstar was considered not part of the trilogy, just the same setting. Much like Anne McCaffrey and her Dragonsong trilogy--same place, common characters, shared history etc. Also, book 4 to BIO OF A SPACE TYRANT is out in paperback. I think Piers is t rying to edge out Stephen Donaldson in largest novel category(if you count all of the books as one). ------------------------------ From: utcsri!tom@caip.rutgers.edu (Tom Nadas) Subject: Re: BLACK WATER editted by Alberto Manguel Date: 18 Dec 85 14:00:45 GMT The reason BLACK WATER doesn't seem like other American anthologies is simple. It's a _Canadian_ anthology, edited by Torontonian Alberto Manguel and first published by a Canadian publisher (Lester and Orpy Dennys, if I remember aright). The Picador edition is a reprint. Incidentally, the anthology was made into a three hour radio documentary series by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's IDEAS series a few years back. RJS in Toronto c/o Tom Nadas UUCP: {decvax,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,allegra,utzoo}!utcsri!tom CSNET: tom@toronto ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: "Footfall" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle Date: 18 Dec 85 17:49:31 GMT perelgut@utai.UUCP (Stephen Perelgut) writes: >Footfall is the latest collaboration between Niven and Pournelle. >This is a BIG book (500 pages). It has to be. It has a BIG cast. > >The aliens are well thought out and their culture (what little of >it appears within the story) makes a kind of sense. I don't quite >believe it, but... > >The story itself is nothing to write home about. There is a cast >of thousands all of whom turn out to know each other (quite >frequently in the biblical sense of the word "know"). To a large extent this is because they really *do* know each other! Yes, that's right, a large part of the cast is based on *real* people that Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle know. >Remove the gratuitous sex, stupid coincidences, extra characters >that don't add much to the plot (an entire survivalist group that >exists in the book for one purpose [last 100 pages], which purpose >is only there to move one character to the right place at the right >time, who is only there to ...) and you have a 125-150 page book >without a lot to recommend it. Actually, the survivalist group is probably there because Jerry Pournelle is a leader of the local survivalist group! Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 20 Dec 1985 01:59:23-PST From: boyajian%akov68.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: story request answered > From: "MARTIN J. MOORE" > The story about the man who lands on a non-human planet and builds > a glider for the natives was called "Something to Say" and > appeared in Analog between 1961 and 1966. Sorry I can't nail it > down any further! "Something to Say" was by John Berryman and appeared in the August 1966 issue of ANALOG. It was reprinted in the anthology ANALOG 6 (edited by, of course, John Campbell, Jr.). > The Gallegher stories are by Anthony Boucher and... appear in the > delightful collection _The_Compleat_Werewolf_. By now, you should know that that isn't true. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: boyajian@akov68.DEC (JERRY BOYAJIAN) Subject: re: Help! I need to know! Date: 19 Dec 85 10:59:13 GMT > From: muddcs!rracine (Ray Racine) > This is another I need to know about book which has haunted me for > a few years now. It's an old book which was reprinted in a series > of old time classics under Lynn Carter, who wrote the > introduction. The authors last name started with an H. (Hamiltion > ??) > > The book is almost morbid, taking place very far in the > future. The hero dreams his way there, I think. All of > humanity has taken refuge in a large pyramid of light and > only a few hundred remain with fewer almost daily. > Outside of the pyramid is evil in various incarnations.... > Absolutely everything was dark in the book, no sun at all, > the entire atmosphere was something straight out > of Edger Allen Poe. > > Lynn Carter writes a little epilogue saying to wait for the > second book to soon be reprinted. I have never seen it and > you can imagine why I would. > > This is a tough one. Does anyone out there remember it? It's THE NIGHT LAND by William Hope Hodgson, first published in 1912. An abridged version under the title "A Dream of X" was published the same year in a collection along with some poetry. This short version was also published all by itself in 1977 by small press publisher Donald M. Grant. The full version first appeared in the US as part of the omnibus collection THE HOUSE ON THE BORDERLAND AND OTHER NOVELS (Arkham House, 1946). It was published in paperback in two volumes as part of the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series in 1972. And by the way, it's LIN Carter, not Lynn Carter. --- jayembee (Jerry Boyajian, DEC, Acton-Nagog, MA) UUCP: {decvax|ihnp4|allegra|ucbvax|...} !decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-akov68!boyajian ARPA: boyajian%akov68.DEC@DECWRL.DEC.COM <"Bibliography is my business"> ------------------------------ From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan) Subject: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine] Date: 18 Dec 85 23:14:38 GMT > 2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film > done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the > only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want > to add new nominations? Secret of NIMH is *much* better than the book. I've seldom been so disappointed in a book! There is *no* real conflict! As for good translations of books to movies: Watership Down is very good, as is The Last Unicorn (but then, Beagle wrote both book and screenplay). (And Zero Mostel as Keehar in the former -- should have gotten an Oscar!)(But then, I'm prejudiced.) As for the problems of book and movie, is a problem of medium. An author has a comparatively easy pace to tell his/her story. He/she can play 'games', allowing the reader *inside* the characters' heads, and he/she has no SPX budget to constrain him/her. (There is a Shelly Berman -- I believe -- spot on the advantages of radio over television that illustrates this quite well.) Given a movie, with a budget, with certain 'laws' of capability within that budget to pull off believable Special Effects, and with a two or so hour limitation, you have some very interesting problems. A novel into a true-to its-origin good movie seems almost a contradiction in terms. What do you leave out? (I'm sure most of us >ththhtbbbbt!< at condensed versions of "good" books.) And what do you do with a governing marketing/decision dept. who doubts that 'quality' will 'play in Peoria'? I don't mean to say that good movies from existing written formats (novels, short stories, etc.) are not impossible -- indeed, there are a few examples to the contrary; but they are difficult enough to produce to be flamed unlikely -- as we have >shudder< seen. Perhaps, someday, quality such as we crave will be the norm. But, having spent a couple recent sick days spinning the channels past the Game Shows, Soap Operas, and afternoon Cartoons, I have my fears. We are then left to support, as we can, those endeavers which *do* adhere to our needs for quality. Perhaps, someday, someone will listen. (Or I'll make enough $$$$ to do it myself!)(We're all entitled to a dream or two.) Barb ------------------------------ From: jhunix!ins_amap@caip.rutgers.edu (Mark Aden Poling) Subject: Waves in science fiction. Date: 19 Dec 85 20:08:32 GMT Recently I've grown curious over something. Back when I was twelve I read all the science fiction I could get hold of, which consisted of about ten Asimov books, eight by Heinlein, and a couple of Bradbury collections. (I was the benefactor/victim of a rural upbringing.) Anyway, I was twelve when it was 1976, and the New Wave had already crested and passed by the time I was through with the Golden Age. The New Wave seems in respect to have been an attempt to bring human values and attitudes into what had previously been very Machine oriented fiction. This of course meant that surrealism was prevalent in much of the "serious" SF published then. Stories that spring to mind include "Dahlgren" by Delany and "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" by Ellison. I was reading this stuff by the time I was fourteen (having spent thirteen in my jr. high's library catching up on old stuff I'd missed) and was mungo confused. However, I had also just discovered girls in a big way, so that in itself says little. Now once more I'm confused, but it's over something different this time. Girls still mystify me, but New Wavish SF doesn't any more. As a matter of fact, I find myself writing the stuff. (By the way, the story I sent to F&SF nine weeks ago, "Dream", is *still* in limbo! A rejection slip hurts, but this is something else.) What I'm wondering is this; do people, as in humans, change over time? If so, what is the nature of the change? Is it merely fashion? Or is it, as I implied in my story, a function of the evolution/ devolution of man's collective unconscience? A friend of mine who writes space opera, (quite well I might add) is under the opinion that time changes nothing but the unit of currency. I could pass this off as nothing, but.... On reflection, Bradbury did a lot with perceptions and emotions, and not all of it would be called conventional. "Golden Apples of the Sun" comes to mind. Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps" is an interesting case of a man driven, if not mad, then pissed off by his strange lineage. And the story "Scanners Live in Vain" by Cordwainer Smith (?) is *incredible*! These stories were the best of the field at the time, may still be, and they contain an empathy for the changed no less stunning than the New Wave stories of later years. Did it with less chest-beating, too. Now, the question from a weird point of view; since these stories were handled so well from the 'fifties, and the authors probably didn't give a damn if they were making some kind of statement, *is it proof that people don't change*? Are these altered states constant in our species, and our awareness of them fluctuating? These stories were by the masters, remember, and were probably not representative of the field. Maybe only they at that time could write about sometthing others couldn't see. I can think of arguments for both sides of the issue, but my head hurts and I may not take aspirin. If you have an interesting idea, post it wherever you like. All flames should be sent here, where I have the hot dogs ready. Mark! ------------------------------ From: psivax!friesen@caip.rutgers.edu (Stanley Friesen) Subject: Re: Space Is Clean Date: 18 Dec 85 18:14:19 GMT >From: Kurt >> There is a fallacy here, the assumption that the set of >>possible forms taken by living things is unrestricted. In fact the >>structure of living things is controlled by "natural laws" in >>about the same way as the interactions of subatomic particles are. >Aren't you making some rather sweeping assumptions about what sort >of environments life can arise in? I think I agree that life forms >from essentially terran environments are likely to bear great >similarities to terran life, and may even have very close DNA >analogues. However, that's about as far as I'm willing to go. Not really assumptions, more like probability analyses. I have actually spent quite a bit of time studying these issues. The problem is that by the time you have covered all terran environments that contain life you have covered most environments where life is even possible, at least as far as I can determine on the basis of organic and general chemistry. >Consider the sulfur consuming life forms found in deep oceans, >which follow a totally new and previously unsuspected food chain >based not on solar but chemical energy (oh, solar way back, but >fundamentally different in that no photosynthesizing plants are >part of the chain). What previously unsuspected food chain? That type of food chain has *long* been considered to have been the original food chain on the Earth, before the invention of photosynthesis a billion years or so *after* the first living thing. The only surprise here is that this type of food chain *still* exists now. Besides, this is *still* a terran life environment, with terran life forms, so my thesis is still valid, life on other planets will tend to resemble life in *some* environment or from *some* geological era on Earth. (Note that is *resemble*, not 'be identical with') >Surely, with the limited set of environmental conditions we have >been able to examine, we are in no position to make any claims >about what life forms are likely to arise or become sentient. We can however evaluate the conditions necessary for various types of developement. Thus sentience requires manipulative ability, and, except in high energy environments, animals(i.e. phagotrophic organisms) require *motility*. >With this lack of information, I'd also be unwilling to generalize >about any chance of overlap. One can imagine a number of possible >cases where humans and aliens have no overlap at all except a need >survive and to reproduce. Given the enormous variety of environments on Earth, and the enormous variation that has occurred through time, we have a lot *more* information than you think. Yes, there might be some life forms on other planets that have no real equivalent on Earth(and vice versa), but there will be many more life forms on any planet that do correspond more or less with Earth life forms. That is other planets will show an equally large range of life forms as Earth, with a rather large area of overlap. >There are also serious questions about whether the human world-view >may have any resemblance to one developed by alien sentients, >particularly those with vastly different body structures. Here you may have a point, though considering the vast differences in world-view among different Earth-human cultures I suspect that humans could at least *learn* the alien's world-view, and they could probably learn ours. Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico} !psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa ------------------------------ From: oliven!barb@caip.rutgers.edu (Barbara Jernigan) Subject: Re: Immortality Date: 12 Dec 85 19:44:21 GMT > From: "Keith F. Lynch" > He can't die. He's immortal. Depends on your definition of 'immortal.' (Yes, I know Websters defines it as "not mortal: exempt from death <~ gods> . . . exempt oblivion . . . .") But is 'he' (yes, I also know I'm coming in on the middle of a discussion) immortal as in unkillable? In my mind there are two states of 'immortality.' First, there is the unkillable, thumb your nose at death variety (Superman *sans* kryptonite and magic). Then there is the variety that does not age beyond adulthood, but can be killed (elves, for instance). Any thoughts on the matter? Barb ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 23 Dec 85 0918-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #470 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 23 Dec 85 0918-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #470 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Monday, 23 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 470 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Dickson (2 msgs) & Ellison (2 msgs) & Rosenberg & A Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dg_rtp!throopw@caip.rutgers.edu (Wayne Throop) Subject: Re: "Brokedown Palace" by Steven Brust Date: 19 Dec 85 23:37:32 GMT > I just picked up a copy of Steven Brust's latest novel, > "Brokedown Palace." It's published by Ace and costs $3.50 in > Canada, $2.95 in the U.S.A. The printing date inside says January > 1986. I haven't had a chance to read it yet I read it. I recommend it. It's quite good. (Sadly however, it is my least favorite of the four Brust books I've read so far.) I do note that the cover blurb is incorrect, where it says > Prince Andre, a clever man - though perhaps a little shallow; The character's name is "Andros". This caused me some confusion, since there was this brother not mentioned on the cover, and a brother mentioned on the cover I kept waiting to come out of the wings. There are also zillions of hooks by which to hang other tales, and some possibility that this universe co-exists with Vlad's. I hope to read more about it. ------------------------------ From: lasspvax!norman@caip.rutgers.edu (Norman Ramsey) Subject: Gordon Dickson's Childe Cycle Date: 18 Dec 85 23:29:20 GMT Here is a brief summary of what I know about the Childe cycle. My sources of information are some introductory material from a Doubleday triple (Three to Dorsai!) and the 1979 Childe Cycle Status Report, which I have seen elsewhere called 'out of date', though I don't know why. The original plan of the Cycle was twelve books; six SF, three historical, and three contemporary. Right now five of the SF books have been published, and depending on who you ask, either one or two more or planned. In order (chronological order of Dickson's universe), they are: Necromancer Tactics of Mistake Dorsai! Soldier, Ask Not The Final Encyclopedia Chantry Guild (planned????) Childe (planned) After finishing Childe (and also Chantry Guild?), Dickson plans to go back and do the three historical novels, first one about a fictional late Moyen Age/Early Renaissance warrior, Hawkwood, then one about Milton, and then one about I forget who. After that come the contemporary novels. I remember one is to be about a military man about the time of WWII and the last about a woman in the 1980s. Dickson claimed (in 1979) that after The Final Encyclopedia was published he expected to publish a Childe Cycle novel about every other year. I don't know whether he still plans that. The Cycle as whole concerns itself with the evolution of humanity as a kind of a racial organism, and in particular with the influence of pivotal individuals on that history. Dickson's three archetypes are the Man of War, the Man of Faith, and the Man of Philosophy. I personally have found most of the series very nicely done but then I enjoy things that are as much about civilizations as about individual people. I also like supermen stories, which much of the Cycle is. Someone coming to this for the first time might want to start with Tactics of Mistake, which talks about the origins of the Dorsai people, who play an important role in the Cycle, and who also supply the most important single character, Donal Graeme, whose influence is very nearly pervasive. Happy reading! Norman Ramsey ARPA: norman@lasspvax or norman%lasspvax@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,allegra,...}!cornell!lasspvax!norman ------------------------------ From: unirot!liz@caip.rutgers.edu (Mamaliz ) Subject: Re: Gordon Dickson's Childe Cycle Date: 21 Dec 85 21:38:18 GMT norman@lasspvax.UUCP (Norman Ramsey) writes: >After finishing Childe (and also Chantry Guild?), Dickson plans to >go back and do the three histrocial novels, first one about a >fictional late Moyen Age/Early Renaissance warrior, Hawkwood, then >one about Milton, and then one about I forget who. Sir John Hawkwood is very definitely NOT a fictional character. He was an English soldier from the Hundred Years War, who at the "conclusion" of the war went on to be the leader of a number of mercenary bands in Northern Italy. liz caip!unirot!liz ------------------------------ From: fluke!moriarty@caip.rutgers.edu (Jeff Meyer) Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits TWILIGHT ZONE Date: 19 Dec 85 17:22:51 GMT tom@utcsri.UUCP (Tom Nadas) writes: >As a professional writer, I abhorcensorship. However, there is a >great difference between censorship and maintaining some level of >good taste, especially in a collaborative medium like television. >True, Harlan was the writer in question, but producer De Guere, >actor Asner, whoever they selected as director, and the programming >mavens at CBS all would have had to live with the fact that the >terrifying thought that Santa did not like black and hispanic >children would have been put in some children's minds. Even if the >resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the mere asking of >the question may have been inappropriate to ask in prime time. I don't buy this one bit. I'm sure Ellison's episode would have ended with a clear and emphatic point that Santa Claus comes to all children. I'm getting very tired of the idea that even the suggestion of a bigotted or predjudiced idea, no matter how quickly refuted, will damage children irrevocably. I believe I saw an episode or two dealing with injustice done to Jews (especially with Holocaust overtones) -- why were these allowed? From the summaries of the episode, it sounded extrememly interesting, and I suspect that it would have done much more against predjudice than for it. >Consider, for instance, an episode from actor/director/child star >Jackie Cooper's autobiography. A director wanting boy-actor Jackie >to cry his heart out on camera told Cooper that his pet dog had >just been killed. Cooper did indeed cry to the director's >satisfaction. Afterwards, the director revealed it had all been a >"harmless" joke and Jackie's dog was fine. The question: was it >(either Ellison's raising the question of whether St. Nick likes >visible minorities or the director's suggesting the dog was dead) >justifiable? Or are some ideas, especially those relating to and >(given TZ's timeslot) targetted at children, best left unspoken? I don't think your example relates to the TZ episode at all. Ellison was writing a *STORY* which would show the stupidity and invalidity of racial predjudice -- but for even mentioning the subject, the thing gets canned. Cooper is recounting a story where he was (viciously, I think) tricked into believing his dog was dead by someone he knew. Do you believe that kids believe every single thing that someone says on TV? I don't think so -- they watch the story, see what happens to (and with) the characters, and make judgements from there; the story usually directs them in their conclusions, and I'm sure Ellison would have utterly decimated the predjudice angle. Besides, I've seen many, many prime-time episodes that more-or-less reveal that Santa Claus is a mythical creation (OK, maybe this is open to debate :-) ). Should these also be eliminated from prime-time? Perhaps the question is whether TZ deserves a later time period; even though I don't agree on the fragility of kid's psyche, I think a later time would suit it well. >Ellsion has walked off virtually every long-term commitment he has >ever had and bitched about virtually every short-term media project >that has ever come to fruition. It was predictable that he would >leave TZ in a huff. It was only a matter of time. I, too, think >he has a wonderful way with the English language, but he is hardly >irreplacable. C'est la vie. No arguments that Ellison is a pain-in-the-ass, strident, and (in my mind) one of the worst critics ever put on this earth; I'd *like* to dislike him. But he writes so very well, and he attracts a lot of talent. I'll miss his stories and his touches very much on TZ, though I think more credit for the show's success should be directed at Phillip DeGuerre, a man who has consistently brought high quality to his productions. Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer ARPA: fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPA UUCP: {uw-beaver, sun, allegra, sb6, lbl-csam}!fluke!moriarty ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 85 20:03 CST From: Jerry Bakin Subject: Re: Harlan Ellison quits.... > As a professional writer, I abhor censorship. However, there is a >great difference between censorship and maintaining some level of >good taste, especially in a collaborative medium like television. > Even if the resolution of the episode had proved otherwise, the >mere asking of the question may have been inappropriate to ask in >prime time. > Consider, for instance, an episode from actor/director/child star >Jackie Cooper's autobiography. A director wanting boy-actor Jackie >to cry his heart out on camera told Cooper that his pet dog had >just been killed. Cooper did indeed cry to the director's >satisfaction. Afterwards, the director revealed it had all been a >"harmless" joke and Jackie's dog was fine. The question: was it >(either Ellison's raising the question of whether St. Nick likes >visible minorities or the director's suggesting the dog was dead) >justifiable? Or are some ideas, especially those relating to and >(given TZ's timeslot) targetted at children, best left unspoken? > RJS in Toronto > Posted c/o > Tom Nadas I think that whomever this RJS is, this letter is very unfair to Mr. Ellison. My thoughts -- jumbled because of the brevity in which to write this. Nackles (sic?), a story by Donald Westlake, was a story to have been directed by Harlan Ellison. I understand that the story has been around awhile, yet this letter seems to imply that Ellison wrote the story. Producer DeGuerre has sided with Ellison on this issue. Maintain your own good taste on TV, exercise the off switch. Censors should not maintain my good taste for me. Since when has good taste had anything to do with TV. Commercialism, genericism, and blandism is the normal criteria for judging TV scripts. Since when has TZ been a kiddy show? If you are upset about kids viewing it, two solutions: move it later in the evening, present a notice about parental guidance is suggested. The analogy of a director lying to Jackie Cooper about a real dog has nothing to do with Harlan presenting a story on televison. All in the family was presented at 8:00 at night on the same station for a lot longer than the new TZ will be around. Do children think the A-Team is real? Do the networks think it is alright to show children that violence and retribution is ok? It's the same thing, in any media, if the viewers cannot discern between truth and fiction, should we ban that story? Does RJS understand the difference? If you are afraid some viewers cannot understand the difference then stick a disclaimer in the front. But I assume it is not an issue, since I see no disclaimers on other CBS shows. Dallas is on right after TZ on the same channel (I think) Talk about tasteless shows! Talk about values? Hey kids, what do you think of J.R's sexual proclivity? Hey isn't that great how J.R. can plot and scheme so well. And J.R. gets away with it. I suspect Ed Asner and Nackels were going to have a run in by the end of the show. >Ellsion (sic) has walked off virtually every long-term commitment >he has ever had and bitched about virtually every short-term media >project that has ever come to fruition. It was predictable that he >would leave TZ in a huff. It was only a matter of time. I, too, >think he has a wonderful way with the English language, but he is >hardly irreplacable. C'est la vie. Present some facts along with your interpretation. Present some cases where Harlan has walked off a long term commitment in which you can say he was wrong. Present the short-term media projects. Yuor implication is that Ellison does this merely as a ploy to exit contracts. I want some evidence. I think Ellison does it to protect something that as a writer you might find some use for too: his ethics. Yes, I was afraid that sooner or later, Ellison would leave TZ. I suspected that sooner or later, probably sooner, the networks would screw him JUST LIKE THEY SEEM TO HABITUALLY SCREW ANY CREATIVE PERSON. The fact that Harlan takes exception to this is laudable. Harlan has not been the only writer to comment on Hollywood. Read "Chandler Speaks" (I think). Raymond Chandler has several things to say about what Hollywood does to artists. Look at Hammett's career to see what effect Hollywood can have. Talk to Terry Gilliam about Hollywood. Many people at many times have discussed the problems in Hollywood. Many people have problems in many fields. We don't need screeds like RJS's which assume guilt. RJS will have a wonderful time in Hollywood, I think they are looking for spineless irrationals. And sign your letters. Jerry Bakin ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: TIES OF BLOOD & SILVER by Joel Rosenberg (mild spoiler) Date: 17 Dec 85 15:23:07 GMT The jacket reads: "The city--or the alien Elwere-- city of rainbows, where the fortunes of the planet Oroga are concentrated in the grasping hands of the privileged few. To David, stolen from Elwere as a baby and raised as a thief of the Lower City, it is a dream of paradise, a treasure trove to which he must find the key, no matter what the cost... And Eschteef--a schrift of the jewel-and-precious-metals schtann, twice the size of a human, more than twice as strong, with frightfully glowing eyes and rows of needle-sharp teeth. It, too, has a dream, a dream of which David has suddenly become the crucial focus. And once a shrift has chosen, nothing can change its path. Elwere or the alien--two different roads to the future, leading to either wealth and power--or death..." As usual, the jacket description is inaccurate. David doesn't dream of living in Elwere, nor does he search for the "key" to fitting into that society. He's more driven by events than in control of them. The book is mainly action and adventure. It takes place on an alien world in a society that includes alien races. There's no emphasis on new technology, but some time is spent talking about the kind of society which has developed. I had read Rosenberg's "Guardians of the Flame" series with much pleasure. This book comes as a disappointment. Just when things start getting interesting, the plot takes an abrupt turn and new characters appear. As a result, all of the characters are rather shallow, and I could never get engrossed in the story. There are some good ideas here, but they aren't adequately developed. I give the book 2.5 stars; it's good for a quick read, but it's not very satisfying. Duane Morse ..!noao!terak|anasazi!duane or ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: ism70!josh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Title Wanted - Kids' Book Date: 20 Dec 85 16:11:00 GMT The name of that was The City Underground, but the authors name slipped from my memory years back...I read the book when I was nine....and I actually went back to the Public Library on Montana Ave. in Santa Monica to find it, but alas it was gone. If anyone knows where it can be found, I'd like to reread it out of sheer curiosity. The main character was a teenage boy and he meets a girl with red hair. I first read a portion of the story out of my English textbook when I was in elementary school, and that with an Arthur C. Clarke story was what I guess first hooked me on sci-fi. I do remember that title, and the author was female, of that I'm about 99% sure about. Hope this is of help to you.... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 31 Dec 85 1525-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #471 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Dec 85 1525-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #471 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 31 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 471 Today's Topics: Books - Anthony & Brust & Hubbard & Offutt & Robinson & Saberhagen & Stasheff & Story Requests Answered (5 msgs) & A Request, Films - Books into Movies (2 msgs), Miscellaneous - Multi-volume Works & Con Update ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev) Subject: Re: Anthony Date: 18 Dec 85 21:55:59 GMT mpm@hpfcla.UUCP writes: >(So far his "Bio of a Space Tyrant" is a trilogy, ^^^^^^^ >but will it stay that way? Also, I think there are five books in Wrong!!!! (Gloat,gloat,gloat!) See the 4th book in your favorite SF bookstore. >the series that contains "Thousandstar" and "Viscous Circle". Did >he ever call that one a trilogy?) No, the "Tarot" series was a trilogy. The "Cluster" series ( which includes the books you named) was never bounded by volume numbers. Maybe because each book is independent of others ( kinda ). Over all, Anthony, like Robert Vardeman, tends to suck the corps of ideas dry before deciding to dump it. (Well, so he DID write a few Xanth books LONG AFTER there was nothing to write about). Oleg Kiselev. ...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 85 17:17:19 EST From: Joseph I. Herman (Joe) Subject: Re: Brokedown Palace Yes, Brokedown Palace is indeed out! It's reasonably good also! This book seems to be SKZB's first attempt at more serious science fiction. He handles his characters well, giving most of them the emotions that really make them come alive. **SPOILER FOLLOWS..YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED (Insert flashing red light)** The following are questions for people who've read the book, I"m not going to summarize the book since people should read it themselves and I'm very bad at summarizing. It seemed to me that the story was really about revolution. I'm not quite sure about what the characters represented though. Please let me know your thoughts about this. My guesses are: The King represents Royalty (The King) Vilkos represents the Army (Strength) Miklos represents the Intellectuals And the other brother (Andre? I can't remember) represents Religion Does the girl represent the peasants? Did the Kings wife represent foreign powers/advisors? And what (if anything) did the sorcerer represent? It's times like this that I wish I'd taken a few more history classes. Another thing I was wondering about. I'm sure you all noticed that the animals were the same as in Yendi/Jhereg. And the fact that the kingdom is *east* of Faerie kingdom. Could this be pre-history to Yendi/Jhereg? There was the reference to a link to a central source to use Faerie power which could be exactly like the link to the emper(or|ess). There was also a brief mention of witches and how weak their power was compared to the sorcerors. This would be similar to the situation in Yendi/Jhereg. On the otherhand, maybe this is just my imagination and it's all just a Hungarian folk tale. I could be reading things into it. Joe DZOEY@UMD2.UMD.EDU : ARPA HERMAN@UMDD : BITNET ------------------------------ From: birtch!oleg@caip.rutgers.edu (Oleg Kiselev) Subject: Re: Hubbard Date: 18 Dec 85 21:55:59 GMT I predict that the most audacious and blatant insult to readership will be L.Ron Hubbard's "Invasion Plan Earth" (10!!! volumes). I have taken a look at it - read a few pages. Boy, what a piece of boring junk! Coupled with terrible writing style, L.Ron's latest posthumous effort will hardly serve to elevate him above his dubious success with his original endeavor - Space Opera he failed with in the early days of SF. Oleg Kiselev. ...!{trwrb|scgvaxd}!felix!birtch!oleg ...!{ihnp4|randvax}!ucla-cs!uclapic!oac6!oleg ------------------------------ From: inuxd!jody@caip.rutgers.edu (JoLinda Ross) Subject: Shadow Spawn (no spoiler) Date: 19 Dec 85 21:44:04 GMT I have just heard from an informed sorce (the arthor via a letter to a friend of mine) that Shadow Spawn by Andrew Offutt will not be out until Auguest 1987. The manuscript was not turned in until November of this year and so the book will not be released for a while. Joland ------------------------------ From: ada-uts!brianu@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Rare Robinson Date: 20 Dec 85 20:12:00 GMT I just picked up Spider Robinson's new anthology Melencholy Elephants. In the forward, Spider says that only a few copies of the anthology Antinomy were sold and it is therefore a rare book. Since I have a copy of Antinomy, I am curious just how rare it is. Anybody know? Brian Utterback Intermetrics Inc. 733 Concord Ave. Cambridge MA. 02138. (617) 661-1840 UUCP: {cca!ima,ihnp4}!inmet!ada-uts!brianu LIFE: UCLA!PCS!TELOS!CRAY!I**2 ------------------------------ From: hp-pcd!john@caip.rutgers.edu (john) Subject: Re: "Berserker Blue Death" by Fred Saber Date: 18 Dec 85 16:44:00 GMT Remember all the fuss about "Terminator" being a rip-off of Saberhagen's Berserker novels? Well Hollywood is doing it to him again. Some guy named Melville has taken "Blue Death" and rewrote it into a movie. He changed the title character from a Blue Berserker into a White Whale but the stories the same. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john Ps: :) ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 1985 08:33:16-EST (Monday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: blurbs I recently picked up "The Warlock Enraged" and noticed that on the back it states that in Gramarye, the most common form of transportation in telepathy. I guess they must be really heavy thinkers out there... ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Title Wanted - Kids' Book Date: 22 Dec 85 00:10:04 PST (Sun) From: jef@lbl-rtsg.arpa The book that Ms. Eades is looking for, about an underground society that discovers some surface dwellers, might possibly be either _Half_Past_Human_ or _The_Godwhale_, both by T. J. Bass. There are a number of similarities between these books and what she describes; the surface people have hair and the undergrounders are bald; the undergrounders, while not children, are child-sized; and the ordering of food by temperature, flavor, and color. However, I would definitely not classify these as children's books. There is a lot of detailed and sometimes nauseating discussion of physiology, some explicit sex, and some fairly heavy philosophy. Not easy reading, but quite good if you can get into it. If Ellen could get into it when she was a kid, she must have been quite a kid! Jef ------------------------------ Date: Sun 22 Dec 85 13:41:35-EST From: Peter G. Trei Subject: Re: Help! I need to know!! > From: muddcs!rracine@caip.rutgers.edu (Ray Racine) > The book is almost morbid, taking place very far in the future. > The hero dreams his way there, I think. All of humanity has taken > refuge in a large pyramid of light and only a few hundred remain > with fewer almost daily. Outside of the pyramid is evil in > various incarnations. I distinctly remember one was > "HE-WHO-WATCHES-IN THE NORTH" in the shape of a huge crouching > monstrosity which never moved, yet constantly drew closer and > closer. There are other capitalized evils in the east, west, > ect... as well as other smaller evils which roamed freely. > Absolutely everything was dark in the book, no sun at all, the > entire atmosphere was something straight out of Edger Allen Poe. > > It was far and away the best sci-fi book I have ever read from the > so called golden age of sci-fi. It was well written and way ahead > of it's time. This book is THE NIGHT LAND, by William Hope Hodgson, originally published in 1912. I have a paperback reprint from Britain (Sphere, 1981, # 0 7221 4765 1), which I picked up in a used book store. I have not finished it yet, but it looks quite good. It comes highly recommended, and not just by Lin Carter. It's also given top marks by Baird Searles, and carries cover and flyleaf blurbs from HP Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, and CS Lewis, all of whom proclaim it a masterpiece! It is not easy going; written in quasi-17th century english, it is over 200,000 words long. I am not aware of a sequel, but it does not end in the way you describe, so maybe your edition was split in two parts. Peter Trei oc.trei@cu20b.arpa [Moderator's Note: Thanks also to David S. Cargo (Cargo@HI-MULTICS.ARPA) who also sent similar information] ------------------------------ To: hpfcla!mpm@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Request for Book Info Date: 23 Dec 85 23:30:24 PST (Mon) From: Jim Hester I can't help on the second and third stories but the first, a novella about a society which is based on "obs" is "...And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell in 1951. The plot was simple, involving a mighty imperial battleship visiting outlying planets to re-assert the central government. It lands on a paradise planet where everybody trusts everybody else, thus the simple system of obligations. Eventually all of the ship's crew go AWOL to join the locals. The title refers to the remaining ship's crew. Two collections which contain it are: "The Science Fiction Hall of Fame vol. two A" ed. by Ben Bova, and "Science Fiction: The Great Years" (NOT vol. two) ed. by Carol & Frederik Pohl. The main thing I remember about this story is that it was the first time I had ever seen the now-infamous acronym "MYOB". ------------------------------ From: tekcrl!patc@caip.rutgers.edu (Pat Caudill) Subject: Re: story request Date: 25 Dec 85 15:05:11 GMT obs (obligations) came from a story by Eric Frank Russel which was one of three contained in the book "The Great Explosion". Another story in the book used the word "myob" a lot. It was "Mind Your Own Business" when the ~heros got out of line. EFR's stories are great (if you like the self reliant hero and the REALLY dumb villian). Pat Caudill P.S. I also recommend "WASP" by him. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Dec 1985 08:27:54-EST (Monday) From: Stephen Balzac Subject: story request Well, I don't remember anything about a story involving "obs", but the other sounds like a story by Poul Anderson. I don't remember the title, but it can be found in a collection of his stories called, "7 Conquests." ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!ugjohna@caip.rutgers.edu (John Arrasjid) Subject: sf book name Date: 27 Dec 85 06:11:06 GMT One more question..... I had heard of a book with the following storyline (or close to it). If anyone has the name of the book, or the author, or both, please let me know. A mysterious disease of epidemic proportions has spread around the world. Only a few people are immune. A man takes his family into the wilderness of Canada to try to save them, but after awhile, his family gets the disease and he is the only survivor. He travels south through the US looking for other survivors and is tracked by Soviet agents trying to find an antidote. They feel they can get one by studying the survivors (or something like that). I'm not sure if that is the exact storyline I was told (over 5 years ago) but it is fairly close. I've been looking for the book for a while now but no-one seems to recognize the story line so I haven't been able to locate it. Any clues? Please don't flame me if this is an obvious story, I think I'll have enough from the last message I posted (Silent Running). thanks again John Arrasjid SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!ugjohna CSnet: ugjohna@buffalo ARPAnet: ugjohna%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ From: wenn@gandalf.cs.cmu.edu (John Wenn) Subject: re: SF movies Date: 21 Dec 85 17:40:56 GMT Another sf (well, really fantasy) film that is at least as good as its source is the recent release "The Company of Wolves". This film was based on the Angela Carter short story. Angela Carter also co-wrote the screen play. This was a SHORT story (about 15 pages?). Both the film and the story play all sorts of games (many freudian) with the Little Red Riding Hood legend. The mood of both is very dreamy and etherial. This is also the closest adaption of a writen work to a film I've ever seen. The film follows the story virtually verbatium, except the film adds an outer layer of story dealing with a 20th century girl. This is an advantage of adapting a short story to a film instead of a novel. You'll always leave SOMETHING out of a filmed novel. The story can be found in the collection "The Bloody Chamber". The other stories also deal with the re-interpretation of common myths (Little Red Riding Hood is done several times). While this was not a GREAT film (or story), it was certainly well done and entertaining. john ------------------------------ From: teklds!hankb@caip.rutgers.edu (Hank Buurman) Subject: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine] Date: 20 Dec 85 14:16:56 GMT chuq@sun.uucp (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film >done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the >only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want to >add new nominations? "Blade Runner" better than P.K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep." Hank Buurman ihnp4!tektronix!dadlac!hankb ------------------------------ Date: Sunday, 22 Dec 1985 09:03:26-PST From: winalski%tle.DEC@decwrl.DEC.COM (Paul S. Winalski) Subject: trilogies and other multi-volume works Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines 'trilogy' as follows: a series of three dramas or sometimes three literary or musical compositions that although each is in one sense complete are closely related and develop a single theme By this definition, neither THE LORD OF THE RINGS nor THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN is a trilogy or tetralogy. Rather, these are single stories published in multiple volumes. The individual volumes of LOTR cannot stand alone as complete stories. On the other hand, the Xanth books, the Riverworld series, and the Hitchhikers tetralogy *do* fit the definition. PSW ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1985 09:30 EST From: INGRIA@OZ.AI.MIT.EDU Subject: ReaderCon Update #1 I have been asked to post this message to the net. I am not involved with organizing it, but I will gladly forward any messages, questions, reactions, etc. to the organizers. Bob (INGRIA@MC) Readercon Update #1 READERCON, the convention for those who spend more time READING imaginative fiction that watching or playing it, has a few announcements: -we have signed GENE WOLFE, one of the finest imaginative writers and prose stylists of our time, to be our first Writer G.O.H. He joins Publisher G.O.H. Mark Ziesing, whose small press has brought out books by Wolfe, Ian Watson, A.A. Attanasio, and the late Philip K. Dick. -we now have a date (June 27--28, 1987[please note year]), and our location will be the Hotel Bradford in Boston, a classic hotel in the theatre district which will be undergoing extensive renovation and restoration in 1986. -two forms of membership are available: SUPPORTING memberships (includes Progress Reports, Program Book, and post-con Final Report) and ATTENDING memberships. For more details, write to the address below. -we will be sponsoring awards for Small Press achievement in this field. Details to follow when we figure them out. -our second flyer, with details on the above, is now available for a #10 S.A.S.E. to: ReaderCon P.O. Box 6138 Boston, MA 02209 ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************  1,, Date: 31 Dec 85 1544-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #472 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS *** EOOH *** Date: 31 Dec 85 1544-EST From: Saul Jaffe (The Moderator) Reply-to: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V10 #472 To: SF-LOVERS@RUTGERS SF-LOVERS Digest Tuesday, 31 Dec 1985 Volume 10 : Issue 472 Today's Topics: Books - Brust & Donaldson & Geston & Lee & Mezo & Zelazny & Story Request & An Answer, Films - Enemy Mine & Books into Films (3 msgs) & Movie Name Request ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: umcp-cs!chris@caip.rutgers.edu (Chris Torek) Subject: Re: Brokedown Palace: relationship between BP and J & Y Date: 24 Dec 85 01:08:19 GMT [BP => Brokedown Palace, J & Y => Jhereg and Yendi] I believe that the `magic of Faerie' in BP is the source for the witchcraft in J & Y. The orb seems to be mechanical, and somehow involved with the genetic-manipulation episode in what I guess is the future of BP. Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 4251) UUCP: seismo!umcp-cs!chris CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@mimsy.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: utecfc!kalpin@caip.rutgers.edu (Jordan E Kalpin) Subject: Chronicles of Thomas Covenant Date: 21 Dec 85 07:51:20 GMT Does anyone know if there is ever going to be a seventh book in the Thomas Covenant series by Donaldson? I was wondering if he was working on a new trilogy to compliment the first two. Perhaps it would be called, "The chronicles of Linden Avery". I would appreciate any information..... Jordan Kalpin Mechanical Engineering University of Toronto ------------------------------ To: Brian Ritchie Subject: Re: Mark S. Geston Date: 26 Dec 85 10:07:20 PST (Thu) From: Jim Hester Geston also wrote "The Siege of Wonder", involving the final battle between scientists and magicians. Unlike most such stories, this is not set in the past, when magic is dying out and science is just being discovered. Instead, Magic has long been forgotten by most of the civilized world, and science is somewhere slightly superior to our level today. Sudennly the magicians come out of the closet, and the war begins. Magic doesn't have a chance, since the scientists use their techniques to learn how to control magic most efficiently (wthout understanding exactly why it works), and build machines to manipulate magic in a big way. A great premise and beginning, but a weak and depressing ending. ------------------------------ From: unirot!grr@caip.rutgers.edu (George Robbins) Subject: Tanith Lee - Days of Grass Date: 24 Dec 85 06:36:10 GMT I just read 'Days of Grass' by Tanith Lee, and was fairly impressed. The plot is pretty thin, but she makes it all very real somehow. What bothers me, is that when I first read 'The Birthgrave' it showed this same art of making a rather strange internal 'alternate reality' stike home, although it falls apart at the end. I've been kind of dissapointed by most of her work since. Does anybody have any feelings on she's playing games below her potential, or was I just overly impressed by 'The Birthgrave'? George Robbins P.O. Box 177 Lincoln U, PA 19352 uucp: ...!ihnp4!tapa!grr ...!caip!unirot!grr ------------------------------ From: anasazi!duane@caip.rutgers.edu (Duane Morse) Subject: UNLESS SHE BURN by Francine Mezo (mild spoiler) Date: 25 Dec 85 00:52:23 GMT The jacket reads: "Spacewarp--the collapse of time and space--plunges Fleet Captain Areia Darenga's ship to a hostile planet where she becomes an outcast, living alone in the harsh and desolate reaches of the Yarbeen. There she is rescued by M'landan, a handsome alien priest, over seven feet tall, who awakens in her a disturbing passion and mystical visions of a new and tempting world. Punished and cast out from his kingdom, M'landan and his beautiful High Priestess live in seclusion. But still they will risk everything for a forbidden love, a love that will cost M'landan his future--but save his people from certain extinction." This book is the second of a trilogy, the first being THE FALL OF WORLDS and the last being NO EARTHLY SHORE. If I hadn't read the first of the series and given it four stars, I doubt that I would have purchased the second based on the jacket summary--it just doesn't sound like my type of book. The quoted summary is fair enough, though rather sensational. The first sentence, in fact, gives the reader more information about what went on before than is found in the book; if you start reading this book without having read the first, you'll probably find things somewhat confusing. This particular book doesn't spend much time on technology and science, but emphasizes the characters and the alien society, and it reminds me somewhat of DUNE--an outworlder starting to play a major part in an alien land, mystical occurrences, passions, violence. The major character is very believable, and one of the author's strong points is the ability to create situations in which the reader shares Darenga's anger and frustration and excitement. The plot is fairly interesting, but I suspect that it is primarily a bridge between the first and third books (a necessary bridge, I hasten to add, because it explains M'landan society and religion). I give this one 3.5 stars (very, very good), and I look forward to reading book 3. Duane Morse ...!noao!terak|anasazi!duane or ...!noao!mot!anasazi!duane (602) 870-3330 ------------------------------ From: interran@Shasta.ARPA Subject: DREAM MASTER by Roger Zelany (spoiler) Date: 21 Dec 85 07:16:54 GMT * SPOILER - don't read if you haven't read the book - SPOILER * I've just read DREAM MASTER by Roger Zelany... can you explain the ending to me? Did or didn't Charles Render free himself from the trap of Eileen Shallot's dream? Last we saw Render, he'd fallen into a chasm (remember, this is a dream) rather than remain trapped in Eileen Shallot's dream. This seems to indicate he freed himself from her control - at the cost of his sanity. Is this true? Then someone asks to see him and is told he can't see Render now - perhaps sometime next year. (Seems as if Render is in a hospital and being rehabilated???) Then we have a wounded knight in armor (Render?) lying in a courtyard waiting for something. A bearded servitor (his healer - Bartelmetz?) tells him the sails of an approaching ship are black. However, the knight sees them as white and says "Ksolde! You have kept faith! You have returned!" The servitor pushes the red button that ends the dream, and night falls again. Who or what was the knight (Render) waiting for, and why did the servitor (the dream master) want him to give up his waiting? Apparently Render is still undergoing rehabilation to heal his psychic wounds, but what are they? Finally, why did Eileen Shallot want to trap Render in her dream and take control of the dream? What would have happened if she had won and Render had joined her rather than fall into the chasm? They couldn't remain dreaming forever or they'd starve. What good does it do her to have control of Render's dream then? She'd still be blind after they woke up. Well, these are my questions. I'd appreciate it if you could explain the ending for me if you understand it better than I do. John ------------------------------ From: trudel@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Jonathan D.) Subject: "We All Died..." author request Date: 23 Dec 85 01:00:38 GMT A long time ago, I read a book titled "We All Died At Breakaway Station." I cannot remember who wrote it. Do any of you know? Short spoiler- Humans are at war with a race of monosexual beings called Jillies. The story follows the life of the captain of a starship stationed at Breakaway Station. The station is eventually overrun, and the humans attempt to escape. The starships travelled by making hyperspace microjumps. The on-board computer is sentient, goes by the name of rog(?), and spoke in lowercase only (probably a unix-box :-). I won't reveal the ending, but I guess you can all do that for yourselves... Does this strike a familiar chord with anyone? Jonathan D. Trudel arpa: trudel@blue.rutgers.edu uucp:{seismo,allegra,ihnp4}!topaz!blue!trudel ------------------------------ From: well!farren@caip.rutgers.edu (Mike Farren) Subject: Re: "We All Died..." author request Date: 23 Dec 85 18:14:48 GMT I believe that "We All Died..." is by Richard Meredith. (I've got it somewhere around here, but you know how THAT goes :-) ) Mike Farren uucp: {dual, hplabs}!well!farren Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667 USnail: 390 Alcatraz Ave., Oakland, CA 94618 ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: ENEMY MINE Date: 22 Dec 85 00:06:07 GMT ENEMY MINE A film review by Mark R. Leeper Capsule review: Film adaptation of Barry Longyear's story slams home its message of racial tolerance. The matte and model work are more imaginative but less well-executed than is expected these days. Last Christmas season brought two major science fiction films to grab the holiday market. Neither DUNE nor 2010 did very well at the box office, so this year we get only one. ENEMY MINE is an adaptation of the Hugo- winning novella by Barry Longyear. The story is a cross between the plots of two Sixties films, HELL IN THE PACIFIC and ROBINSON CRUSOE ON MARS. A human and an enemy alien are stranded together on a planet and must overcome their instinctive mutual hatred if they are to survive. There is more plot to the story than that, but that is the core of what ENEMY MINE is all about. The film talks down to its audience at a slight incline when presenting its message of tolerance for those different than ourselves. ENEMY MINE was directed by Wolfgang Peterson, who previously directed DAS BOOT, one of the best films ever made about submarine warfare, and THE NEVERENDING STORY, which rose above the mismatched patchwork of ideas and images it had only because some of the ideas were really interesting. ENEMY MINE goes to the other extreme from THE NEVERENDING STORY. ENEMY MINE is a little too pat, a little too simplistic. Peterson took over the reins from the film's first director, Richard Loncraine. (Why Fox threw out Loncraine and nine million dollars of his work in unclear. People in production report that Loncraine's version of the story was as good as Peterson's.) Peterson had the alien make-up done over--a number of times, in fact. The resulting make-up does not quite look believable, particularly a tail that looks borrowed from a stuffed animal. Dennis Quaid of THE RIGHT STUFF, DREAMSCAPE, and BREAKING AWAY stars as the human and Lou Gossett, Jr. (AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN, SADAT) is quite good as the alien. Also on hand is Brion James, continuing a career of belligerent parts like the replicant Leon in BLADERUNNER and the head redneck in the "Mummy Daddy" episode of AMAZING STORIES. The special effects of ENEMY MINE are fun rather than believable. Much of the landscape is provided by unconvincing matte paintings. Curiously enough, these were done by Industrial Light and Magic, who usually have much higher standards. The spacecraft models were created by the Bavaria Studios model unit. They look like something off the cover of a Sixties science fiction book. When one crash-lands on a planet it is obviously model work, but it fun to watch much like a similar landing was fun to watch at the climax of WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE. In total, there is much to like in ENEMY MINE, but curiously the adaptation of the prize-winning story it was based on is what lets it down. Give it a +1 on the -4 to +4 scale. The film is just a bit simplistic in its Yuletide plea for peace off earth and good will toward aliens. Mark R. Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: mtgzz!leeper@caip.rutgers.edu (m.r.leeper) Subject: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine] Date: 21 Dec 85 21:35:58 GMT > 2001, by the way, is truly a special case. Not only is it a film >done at the same time as the novel, but I also nominate it as the >only SF film that was BETTER than the book was. Anyone else want >to add new nominations? QUEST FOR LOVE is better than the John Wyndham story "Random Quest" on which it was based. I assume you don't count books based on films which are often not as good as the film, only rarely are they actually better (TARZAN AND THE VALLEY OF GOLD and FANTASTIC VOYAGE as examples that it does happen). Mark Leeper ...ihnp4!mtgzz!leeper ------------------------------ From: ncoast!allbery@caip.rutgers.edu (Brandon Allbery) Subject: SF Movies and such Date: 21 Dec 85 21:57:30 GMT barb@oliven.UUCP (Barbara Jernigan) writes: >As for the problems of book and movie, is a problem of medium. An >author has a comparatively easy pace to tell his/her story. He/she >can play 'games', allowing the reader *inside* the characters' >heads, and he/she has no SPX budget to constrain him/her. (There >is a Shelly Berman -- I believe -- spot on the advantages of radio >over television that illustrates this quite well.) Given a movie, >with a budget, with certain 'laws' of capability within that budget >to pull off believable Special Effects, and with a two or so hour >limitation, you have some very interesting problems. A novel into >a true-to its-origin good movie seems almost a contradiction in >terms. What do you leave out? Case in point: DUNE. No, the movie wasn't the book, and it contained such nonsense as the Baron's harkening toward another infamous Baron Vlad (those plugs in people's chests) and the ``weirding boxes''; but how in the universe do you show Baron Harkonnen's depravity in a movie which can't show everything (anyone for a ten-hour movie?), and, as for Voice, how do you show *that* in a movie? My opinion is that any movie calling itself DUNE simply *cannot* be a screenplay of the book. Then there's the endings of 2001 and THE BLACK HOLE, both of which lose even with SFX because you can never *show* what's really going on; it defies translation to visual media. Brandon ncoast!allbery%Case.CSNet@CSNet-Relay.ARPA or ..decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery (..ncoast!tdi2!root for business) 6615 Center St., Mentor, OH 44060 Phone: +01 216 974 9210 CIS 74106,1032 MCI MAIL BALLBERY (part-time) ------------------------------ From: ISM780!dianeh@caip.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Re: SF movies [was Re: Emeny Mine] Date: 24 Dec 85 14:34:00 GMT CHARLY *better* than Flowers_for_Algernon??? Yuk! The film wasn't bad, if you *don't* compare it to the book -- but once you do... PLANET OF THE APES was an abomination compared to the book. It's a typical Hollywood product -- "Hey, this sounds great...apes running the world and having humans as slaves...yeah, and we can tie in a Third World War at the same time...Great!" The book was subtle and intriguing and had *nothing* to do with our blowing ourselves up. Read it sometime. Diane Holt Interactive Systems Corp. ima!ism780 ------------------------------ From: sunybcs!ugjohna@caip.rutgers.edu (John Arrasjid) Subject: name of movie Date: 26 Dec 85 05:22:09 GMT I'm looking for the name of a movie set in the future. The story line goes something like this.... The earth is overpopulated and there is no more plant life, so huge space greenhouses are built that grow plants and small animal life for food, and produce oxygen to bring back to earth. There are little robots that work on the station in addition to a small human crew. In the end, one of the crew decides to commit suicide by blowing up all the pods of the green house. If anyone knows the name of this movie, please send me mail. It came out before 1975. I believe it was even close to the release date of 2001: A space oddyssey I think the name was began with the word "Silent". thanx John Arrasjid SUNY/Buffalo Computer Science UUCP: [decvax,dual,rocksanne,watmath,rocksvax]!sunybcs!ugjohna CSnet: ugjohna@buffalo ARPAnet: ugjohna%buffalo@CSNET-RELAY ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************